From jercurry at comcast.net Fri Feb 15 20:06:27 2008 From: jercurry at comcast.net (Jeremiah Curry) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:06:27 -0700 Subject: [VTR] TR3 compression test In-Reply-To: <007f01c86150$59d4dee0$0d7e9ca0$@net> Message-ID: <002901c87048$ec8ba4b0$0202fea9@screamer> Actually that brings up an intersting point, It seems like when I got the car it would only try to start with the ignition switched on, but now the red light on the dash is on whenever the battery is attached, and the key doesn't seem to change anything. Any ideas? Thanks, Jeremiah -----Original Message----- From: Joe Laurito [mailto:trglory at comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 6:52 PM To: Herald948 at aol.com; jercurry at comcast.net; vtr at autox.team.net; bmcu at autox.team.net Subject: RE: [VTR] TR3 compression test Jeremiah; I was going to suggest that you whack the starter a few times with a BFH and push the button again. And make sure you have the ignition switch ON. (Don't ask me how I know about THAT hot tip.) Joe -----Original Message----- From: vtr-bounces+trglory=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:vtr-bounces+trglory=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Herald948 at aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:36 PM To: jercurry at comcast.net; vtr at autox.team.net; bmcu at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [VTR] TR3 compression test In a message dated 1/27/2008 7:27:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jercurry at comcast.net writes: On a side note, the starter worked last time I tried (a few months ago) but now just spins without engaging. That possibly could be just a bit of dirt or "flash rust" from moisture in the air that has bound up the starter Bendix (assuming original type starter here). It's worth pulling the starter and cleaning the drive as necessary, but don't lubricate it once clean (except maybe sparingly with a dry graphite type of lubricant)! Any oily lubricant will only attract dirt and make it stick again.... --Andy Mace No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.12/1245 - Release Date: 1/26/2008 3:45 PM From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Feb 15 21:25:01 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:25:01 -0800 Subject: [VTR] TR3 compression test In-Reply-To: <002901c87048$ec8ba4b0$0202fea9@screamer> Message-ID: <20080216042502.YUBU15146.mta11.adelphia.net@randall> > Actually that brings up an intersting point, It seems like > when I got the car it would only try to start with the > ignition switched on, but now the red light on the dash is on > whenever the battery is attached, and the key doesn't seem to > change anything. Any ideas? Sounds like a short in the wiring, always supplying current into the ignition circuit. Does the light go out when you start the engine ? I would probably start at the control box, removing the small yellow wire from the 'D' terminal (which is the wire to the red light on the dash). First verify that the light stays out with the wire removed, both key off and key on. Then check the voltage on the wire with the key off using a voltmeter or DMM. If you see 12v on the wire with the key off, there is definitely a short in the wiring. (Or another way to do the last test is to temporary connect the wire to the 'E' terminal of the control box and verify that the light comes back on, again indicating a short in the ignition circuit.) If it still looks like a short, I would next disconnect the ignition switch to be sure the short is not in it. Then remove the fuses (which will tell you if the short is on the white side or the green side of the ignition fuse). If none of that turns up anything, it's probably time to have the dash out and visually inspect behind it. Randall From jercurry at comcast.net Sat Feb 16 15:02:37 2008 From: jercurry at comcast.net (Jeremiah Curry) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:02:37 -0700 Subject: [VTR] Starter In-Reply-To: <12B6CB27-8891-4F92-A123-0151B58D45BA@mac.com> Message-ID: <003401c870e7$a4f783e0$0202fea9@screamer> I pulled the starter last night and cleaned up the shaft I am not really sure what all of the parts are called, so bear with me. The gear that engases with the flywheel pulls out easily and as you pull it out the piece behind it rotates. The spring that pulls the gear back also appears to work fine. However neither of these parts appear to be attached in any way to the shaft that is attached to the motor part, I can turn them independently. I cleaned everything up and then realized how hard it is to get the shaft back in the housing, since you need to push the brushes back into their guides at the same time. Luckily my wife helped me there (she must love me!) Once the starter was re-installed I tried it with the same results, a lot of spinning without engaging the flywheel. I checked the flywheeel and it isn't missing any teeth. I also attached my batter charger on the "start" position to the positive ground and the negative terminal of the starter to make sure it wasn't a starter or wiring problem, again the starter spins like crazy without engaging. This leads me to believe the part of the starter that converts centrifical force into forward motion doesn't work...but I'm not sure how that happens at all. Thanks, in advance for any help Jeremiah -----Original Message----- From: Robert Green [mailto:robminil7 at mac.com] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 9:44 AM To: jercurry at comcast.net Subject: Starter Jeremiah, Maybe I'm getting in this a little late, but what you describe sounds like a Bendix spring failure or that the gear the Bendix spring holds back from the flywheel when the starter is not engaged is sticking on the shaft of the starter. The gear I mention is held back from the teeth of the flywheel when the starters not engaged. When the starter is engaged, the Bendix spring compresses, allowing the gear to slide forward on the shaft of the starter, and engage the flywheel. If the Spring does not compress, or the shaft of the starter is gummed up (the likely cause) the gear does not slide forward and engage the flywheel. The starter just spins along merrily. Pull the starter, clean up the shaft of the starter and the Bendix gear/spring, lube the bearing of the starter while you have it out, Also look at the brushes of the starter at this time and clean up the communtator of the armature of the starter. Slide the puppy back in place and it should work. Other possibilities are 1. there are some teeth missing from the flywheel, in which case you can move it past this area by putting the car in gear and move it a bit forward or back to move the flywheel, and try again. 2. The "dog" gear, or the gear on the starter shaft controlled by the Bendix spring is bust, in which case replace the starter. 3. The starter or battery are not up to snuff, and they don't generate enough torque to compress the Bendix spring far enough to engage the dog gear. Good Luck, Rob Green From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 16 15:50:30 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:50:30 -0800 Subject: [VTR] Starter In-Reply-To: <003401c870e7$a4f783e0$0202fea9@screamer> Message-ID: <20080216225030.BATT22143.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> I seem to have missed the beginning of this thread, possibly because I am not on the BMCU list. Not sure what car this is, but what you are describing sounds like a common failure on TR2-early TR3A. There is a drive piece inside the starter with rubber bonded to two metal sleeves. Over time, the bond between the rubber and the metal breaks, leaving the inner sleeve to spin uselessly. Generally it still provides some friction, so the failure is hard to spot on the bench, but won't transmit enough force to turn the engine. BFE used to sell a modified drive piece that didn't rely on a steel/rubber bond; but I think I got the last one years ago and Ken said he wasn't going to have any more made. Of course, this may or may not apply to the actual starter in question. But if you remove the armature (leaving the drive attached to the end) and clamp the drive gear in a vice, then try to turn the armature forwards with your hand; you should see the gear forced along the shaft into it's engaged position and then the armature locks tightly to the gear. If it still turns, or the shaft doesn't move through the gear, the drive is broken. Randall From jercurry at comcast.net Sat Feb 16 16:06:53 2008 From: jercurry at comcast.net (Jeremiah Curry) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:06:53 -0700 Subject: [VTR] Starter In-Reply-To: <20080216225030.BATT22143.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <003501c870f0$9f120780$0202fea9@screamer> Thanks Randall, It is a 1957 TR3. And agains since I don't know all of the names, bear with me as I am trying to figure out what things are by looking at the moss website. The armature and coils spin, but the sleeve and pinnion do not. If the part you spoke of is no longer available, could I just weld those together or something? Or am I looking at buying a new starter? Thank, Jeremiah -----Original Message----- From: Randall [mailto:tr3driver at ca.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 3:51 PM To: 'Jeremiah Curry'; vtr at autox.team.net Subject: RE: [VTR] Starter I seem to have missed the beginning of this thread, possibly because I am not on the BMCU list. Not sure what car this is, but what you are describing sounds like a common failure on TR2-early TR3A. There is a drive piece inside the starter with rubber bonded to two metal sleeves. Over time, the bond between the rubber and the metal breaks, leaving the inner sleeve to spin uselessly. Generally it still provides some friction, so the failure is hard to spot on the bench, but won't transmit enough force to turn the engine. BFE used to sell a modified drive piece that didn't rely on a steel/rubber bond; but I think I got the last one years ago and Ken said he wasn't going to have any more made. Of course, this may or may not apply to the actual starter in question. But if you remove the armature (leaving the drive attached to the end) and clamp the drive gear in a vice, then try to turn the armature forwards with your hand; you should see the gear forced along the shaft into it's engaged position and then the armature locks tightly to the gear. If it still turns, or the shaft doesn't move through the gear, the drive is broken. Randall From trglory at comcast.net Sat Feb 16 16:20:22 2008 From: trglory at comcast.net (Joe Laurito) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:20:22 -0500 Subject: [VTR] Starter Message-ID: <008401c870f2$81eeda50$85cc8ef0$@net> If it was me (it was), I would buy a gear reduction starter (I did) and put an end to starter issues once and for all. And you reduce the weight you have to lug around by about 20 pounds too. Joe -----Original Message----- From: vtr-bounces+trglory=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:vtr-bounces+trglory=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jeremiah Curry Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 5:03 PM To: 'Robert Green'; bmcu at autox.team.net; vtr at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [VTR] Starter I pulled the starter last night and cleaned up the shaft I am not really sure what all of the parts are called, so bear with me. The gear that engases with the flywheel pulls out easily and as you pull it out the piece behind it rotates. The spring that pulls the gear back also appears to work fine. However neither of these parts appear to be attached in any way to the shaft that is attached to the motor part, I can turn them independently. I cleaned everything up and then realized how hard it is to get the shaft back in the housing, since you need to push the brushes back into their guides at the same time. Luckily my wife helped me there (she must love me!) Once the starter was re-installed I tried it with the same results, a lot of spinning without engaging the flywheel. I checked the flywheeel and it isn't missing any teeth. I also attached my batter charger on the "start" position to the positive ground and the negative terminal of the starter to make sure it wasn't a starter or wiring problem, again the starter spins like crazy without engaging. This leads me to believe the part of the starter that converts centrifical force into forward motion doesn't work...but I'm not sure how that happens at all. Thanks, in advance for any help Jeremiah No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.6/1282 - Release Date: 2/15/2008 7:08 PM From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 16 16:46:15 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:46:15 -0800 Subject: [VTR] Starter In-Reply-To: <003501c870f0$9f120780$0202fea9@screamer> Message-ID: <20080216234615.KCZG1279.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> > The armature and coils > spin, but the sleeve and pinnion do not. Might be worth removing the sleeve to double-check, but that sure sounds like the failure I described. > If the part you spoke of is no longer available, The standard part should still be readily available, Moss 549-580 or TRF LUTLB160. It's only the "improved" part that is NLA (basically it was superseded by the gear drive starters now available). > could I just weld those together or something? I have heard that trying to weld the drive solid typically results in something else breaking from the shock, but haven't tried it myself. > Or am I looking at buying a new starter? If you do decide to go that route, and aren't worried about originality, I heartily recommend the "high tech" gear drive starters. They weigh less, take less current (easier to start with a tired battery) and spin the engine faster for easier starts. Also since they are a "pre-engaged" design, they are less picky about the condition of the ring gear teeth (and I think place less stress on them). I put one on TS39781LO and the only complaint I have is that it no longer sounds like a TRactor motor being cranked, more like a jet engine spooling up By the way, I should point out that this list is primarily for discussing matters pertaining to the Vintage Triumph Register as a club. Technical discussions of Triumphs should really be on the Team.Net 'Triumphs' mail list. Unfortunately MJB hasn't updated all the web links yet, but you can subscribe by going to http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/triumphs Randall 59 TR3A TS39781LO (now totaled :( 56 TR3 TS13571L next project 71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild 71 Stag LE2013LBW daily driver wanna be 57 TR3 TS21731L rusting quietly 2000 miles away