From mark at bradakis.com Thu Apr 1 00:16:48 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 01:16:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Vintage-race] Fools and Funding Message-ID: <20100401071648.9CB0B2E022@bradakis.com> No, this is not a political rant about the scoundrels on Capitol Hill. I'll rant about that elsewhere, probably the prattle forum on the Team.Net forums. For the moment, though, consider this my annual State of Team.Net speech. It is getting sent out on All Fool's Day. More on that in a bit. Back in April of 1991 the domain team.net was registered. We are 19 years old this month. Of course there were a few years before then that email was just sent to various places as the lists were in their infancy. The patriarch of the family was SOL, the Scions of Lucas, thanks to Dale Cook and Jim Muller. Now there are over 60 Team.Net email lists, and about 14,000 subscribers scattered about the planet. And 19 years old describes my age when I moved to Salt Lake City, a young lad looking for adventure in the mountains through climbing and skiing. And many an adventure was to be had. The biggest was no doubt the Weird Winter Wall trip of 1977. I really need to write that up, get a bunch of the slides digitized to share with others. The short version is that I am amazingly lucky to still be alive. It was April 1st, 1977 when the four of us, hungry and exhausted, demoralized and chilled to the bone sat on a mountainside in the Wind Rivers and watched the sun come up. Sunrises are always beautiful, but to this day those firstly faint glowing streaks of red, orange and gold have never looked so welcome as on that morning. We knew we'd make it, we'd see more sunrises. It seems appropriate that we returned to civilization on April Fool's day. A winter ascent of the North Face of Mt. Hooker seems a fool's errand in hindsight. But I survived. And Team.Net has survived. There have certainly been many times over the years when I've felt the fool for putting in the effort to keep it going. Just hitting the off switch and walking away would have been so easy. But far more prominent are the occasions where a well crafted message, an unsolicited thank you or donation, a T shirt or some trinket unexpectedly showing up at my doorstep makes me realize what a treasure Team.Net has been over the years. There are untold old classics out there still on the road, thanks to you folks. Sure, you may have never turned a wrench on them, or pushed them in or out of the garage, but the technical support provided, along with the email equivalent of a friendly smile and a heartfelt pat on the back has kept folks going. They've taken that fool's errand of a hopeless restoration and brought it back from near death to see another sunrise. If you see fit, please make use of the information provided at http://www.team.net/donate.html mjb. "But look, the morn in russet mantle clad walks o'er the dew of yon high eastward hill" Hamlet, Wm. Shakespeare From John.Desantis at Inficon.com Mon Apr 12 13:38:37 2010 From: John.Desantis at Inficon.com (John.Desantis at Inficon.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas Message-ID: Anyone out there getting sick of $8 plus a gallon race gas - A few years back a buddy of mine was buying TEL (tetra ethyl lead) and mixing his own. Anybody out there try this? There are other octane boosters out there. John DeSantis Mechanical Engineer Inficon Phone 315-434-1196 Fax 315-437-3803 *********************************************************************** NOTICE: - This message including any attachments is intended only for the use of the designated recipient(s) named above and may contain confidential information protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the original message including any attachments. *********************************************************************** From ralph at cloverleaf-auto.com Mon Apr 12 14:26:37 2010 From: ralph at cloverleaf-auto.com (Ralph Steinberg) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:26:37 -0400 Subject: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009a01cada7e$74052870$5c0f7950$@com> You do realize that when the guys at DuPont who make this stuff handle it they where full hazmat suits? In fact the guys who just load the trucks wear full hazmat Also just adding lead to fuel does not increase the Octane - The higher the octane the slower the burn and the cooler the burn so the compression can be higher - Lead does some of the same things, slows the burn and cools the temps but it does not raise the octane rating. If your compression and head/piston design require 110 octane leaded fuel you would need 115 unleaded to equal the burn of the 110 Except today they have other fuel additives to make the burn work so they can get away with lower octane in some instances with low or no lead fuels. If you want to raise octane add alcohol to the mix - and yes that has its own problems and is not legal in all race formats. Av gas is designed to run at high altitudes and it is getting hard to find leaded AV gas anyway. You can build your engine to run unleaded - NASCAR does and they use no alcohol. But man messing with lead on your own is a bad thing. You also better be thinking about setting up your engines to run without lead - lead is not going to be around to much longer. And yes, except for some air plane engines you can rebuild your engine to run on unleaded fuel - kick is high octane unleaded costs as much or more than leaded - lead was a cheap answer for the oil companies and they were not real concerned about what it did to you or your engine. There was a reason for Amoco White Gas Ralph -----Original Message----- From: vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John.Desantis at Inficon.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:39 PM To: vintage-race at autox.team.net Subject: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas Anyone out there getting sick of $8 plus a gallon race gas - A few years back a buddy of mine was buying TEL (tetra ethyl lead) and mixing his own. Anybody out there try this? There are other octane boosters out there. John DeSantis Mechanical Engineer Inficon Phone 315-434-1196 Fax 315-437-3803 *********************************************************************** NOTICE: - This message including any attachments is intended only for the use of the designated recipient(s) named above and may contain confidential information protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the original message including any attachments. *********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Vintage-race at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $11.47 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/vintage-race/ralph at cloverleaf-auto.com From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 12 15:25:50 2010 From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:25:50 -0700 Subject: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas References: <009a01cada7e$74052870$5c0f7950$@com> Message-ID: I think you'll find, pending an actual qualitative analysis that 100 octane "Low Lead" aviation fuel contains more lead than even Sunoco 110 leaded. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: Ralph Steinberg To: John.Desantis at Inficon.com ; vintage-race at autox.team.net Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas You do realize that when the guys at DuPont who make this stuff handle it they where full hazmat suits? In fact the guys who just load the trucks wear full hazmat Also just adding lead to fuel does not increase the Octane - The higher the octane the slower the burn and the cooler the burn so the compression can be higher - Lead does some of the same things, slows the burn and cools the temps but it does not raise the octane rating. If your compression and head/piston design require 110 octane leaded fuel you would need 115 unleaded to equal the burn of the 110 Except today they have other fuel additives to make the burn work so they can get away with lower octane in some instances with low or no lead fuels. If you want to raise octane add alcohol to the mix - and yes that has its own problems and is not legal in all race formats. Av gas is designed to run at high altitudes and it is getting hard to find leaded AV gas anyway. You can build your engine to run unleaded - NASCAR does and they use no alcohol. But man messing with lead on your own is a bad thing. You also better be thinking about setting up your engines to run without lead - lead is not going to be around to much longer. And yes, except for some air plane engines you can rebuild your engine to run on unleaded fuel - kick is high octane unleaded costs as much or more than leaded - lead was a cheap answer for the oil companies and they were not real concerned about what it did to you or your engine. There was a reason for Amoco White Gas Ralph -----Original Message----- From: vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John.Desantis at Inficon.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:39 PM To: vintage-race at autox.team.net Subject: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas Anyone out there getting sick of $8 plus a gallon race gas - A few years back a buddy of mine was buying TEL (tetra ethyl lead) and mixing his own. Anybody out there try this? There are other octane boosters out there. John DeSantis Mechanical Engineer Inficon Phone 315-434-1196 Fax 315-437-3803 *********************************************************************** NOTICE: - This message including any attachments is intended only for the use of the designated recipient(s) named above and may contain confidential information protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the original message including any attachments. *********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Vintage-race at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $11.47 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/vintage-race/ralph at cloverleaf-auto.co m _______________________________________________ Vintage-race at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $11.47 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/vintage-race/carlynneracing at sbcglobal.n et From jgambony at gcecisp.com Wed Apr 14 14:13:42 2010 From: jgambony at gcecisp.com (Jim Gambony) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas In-Reply-To: References: <009a01cada7e$74052870$5c0f7950$@com> Message-ID: <4F4F7D605D8649A09DE4C9CE67B7AE4A@jrg> One of those stories spread around the LBC campfire in the early 80s when leaded was being phased out was that mixing high octane unleaded with a bit of leaded would supposedly result in a higher overall effective octane rating. And yes, av gas 100 octane "low lead" does have a higher lead content than the pump gas in the late '60s and the currently available leaded racing fuels. Av gas is "low lead" compared to whatever was used back waay back when. I'm guessing WWII era. Of course, in order to get av gas these days you typically need to have a plane. Or a friend willing to siphon a few gallons from his tank for you. As to lead and engines, another campfire story is that a dose of lead every once in a while is enough to leave a coating on the head-valve area. Back when leaded gas was the norm, the gasoline had a phosphorus compound added to help dissolve the lead deposits in the cylinders. Hence the stickers on unleaded gas pumps saying the fuel does not contain lead or phosphorus. Unleaded gas shouldn't have such additives.. The question is whether the heat of combustion will melt off any residual lead. Originally TEL was added to gasoline to raise the octane rating because the refineries at the time weren't designed for more complicated processes. Chemistry has improved since then. As to trying to mix up your own leaded... Where do you even buy TEL these days? It's bad enough trying to buy batteries for the cars. And at the most basic level... What percentage of your weekend race expense is for leaded racing fuel? And how bad is the valve recession on the engine you're running? Or just nervous? Cheers, Jim Dallas '61 Morris Mini with full bore 1275S drivetrain and 105 octane leaded '76 DM Spitfire.. Running unleaded pump gas -----Original Message----- From: vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Carl McLelland Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 PM To: Ralph Steinberg; John.Desantis at Inficon.com; vintage-race at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas I think you'll find, pending an actual qualitative analysis that 100 octane "Low Lead" aviation fuel contains more lead than even Sunoco 110 leaded. Carl From jimf42 at rocketmail.com Wed Apr 14 15:25:49 2010 From: jimf42 at rocketmail.com (jim fuerstenberg) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas In-Reply-To: <4F4F7D605D8649A09DE4C9CE67B7AE4A@jrg> References: <009a01cada7e$74052870$5c0f7950$@com> <4F4F7D605D8649A09DE4C9CE67B7AE4A@jrg> Message-ID: <65197.78169.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I would strongly recommend against mixing your own fuel unless you have chemistry experience...mostly because you will get inconsistent results and octane. On a racing engine, consistency in fuel is very important...your mixture requirements change with octane changes. Jim Fuerstenberg 'The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong, it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.' (Douglas Adams) ________________________________ From: Jim Gambony To: vintage-race at autox.team.net Sent: Wed, April 14, 2010 3:13:42 PM Subject: Re: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas One of those stories spread around the LBC campfire in the early 80s when leaded was being phased out was that mixing high octane unleaded with a bit of leaded would supposedly result in a higher overall effective octane rating. And yes, av gas 100 octane "low lead" does have a higher lead content than the pump gas in the late '60s and the currently available leaded racing fuels. Av gas is "low lead" compared to whatever was used back waay back when. I'm guessing WWII era. Of course, in order to get av gas these days you typically need to have a plane. Or a friend willing to siphon a few gallons from his tank for you. As to lead and engines, another campfire story is that a dose of lead every once in a while is enough to leave a coating on the head-valve area. Back when leaded gas was the norm, the gasoline had a phosphorus compound added to help dissolve the lead deposits in the cylinders. Hence the stickers on unleaded gas pumps saying the fuel does not contain lead or phosphorus. Unleaded gas shouldn't have such additives.. The question is whether the heat of combustion will melt off any residual lead. Originally TEL was added to gasoline to raise the octane rating because the refineries at the time weren't designed for more complicated processes. Chemistry has improved since then. As to trying to mix up your own leaded... Where do you even buy TEL these days? It's bad enough trying to buy batteries for the cars. And at the most basic level... What percentage of your weekend race expense is for leaded racing fuel? And how bad is the valve recession on the engine you're running? Or just nervous? Cheers, Jim Dallas '61 Morris Mini with full bore 1275S drivetrain and 105 octane leaded '76 DM Spitfire.. Running unleaded pump gas -----Original Message----- From: vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Carl McLelland Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 PM To: Ralph Steinberg; John.Desantis at Inficon.com; vintage-race at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Vintage-race] 110 octane race gas I think you'll find, pending an actual qualitative analysis that 100 octane "Low Lead" aviation fuel contains more lead than even Sunoco 110 leaded. Carl _______________________________________________ Vintage-race at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $11.47 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/vintage-race/jimf42 at rocketmail.com