From wmseverin at charter.net Tue Sep 1 07:17:26 2009 From: wmseverin at charter.net (Wm. Severin Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 08:17:26 -0500 Subject: [Vintage-race] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend Oct. 10 In-Reply-To: <402188520908311907n2e5a2a89y35e14fd6ea7c7e4e@mail.gmail.com> References: <10701925.199497.1251493278446.JavaMail.txtblapp@ip-10-250-131-129.ec2.internal> <402188520908311855r127a89fs1b57b2378ab4e71e@mail.gmail.com> <00ec01ca2aa7$bf741000$3e5c3000$@net> <402188520908311907n2e5a2a89y35e14fd6ea7c7e4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201ca2b06$8cff9a40$a6fecec0$@net> Plans for SOS, the Erection are underway. It will take place the weekend of Oct. 10 & 11. Lots to do at the new Thicko shop, located in Princeton, WI. We'll get the MaxJax lift installed on both sides of the shop... one side (the regular workshop) spaced specifically for Sprite work. The other side will be spaced for larger vehicles. There's lots of other things to get done in terms of organization, purging, etc. If there's a plumber in the house, speak up. The new Thicko shop can accommodate 4 or 5 overnight guests (in real beds), and the lake house (Green Lake, where I live now), is 10 miles away, and can accommodate another 5. There's a grocery store right next to the shop, so we can sacrifice the appropriate animals. We have broadband there, so once again SOS will be broadcast via Yahoo Messenger. More details later. Please advise if you'd like to attend. WST > -----Original Message----- > From: spridgets-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:spridgets- > bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Lieb > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 9:07 PM > To: Spridgets > Subject: Re: [Spridgets] An SOS Erection (Lift) > > OK folks, > I suck at trying to get something like this together. > > What we are looking at right now is the weekend of October 10th in > Princeton, Wisconsin. No telling what else will come up, but the > primary goal is to install a MaxJax lift. A rotary hammer drill with a > 5/8" concrete bit and a 7/8" concrete bit for the drop-in anchors will > be needed. No, I do not have one ;-) Anyone planning to come who has > access to such a device? > David L From peter at nosimport.com Tue Sep 1 08:03:49 2009 From: peter at nosimport.com (Peter Caldwell) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:03:49 -0500 Subject: [Vintage-race] [Healeys] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend Oct. 10 In-Reply-To: <003201ca2b06$8cff9a40$a6fecec0$@net> References: <10701925.199497.1251493278446.JavaMail.txtblapp@ip-10-250-131-129.ec2.internal> <402188520908311855r127a89fs1b57b2378ab4e71e@mail.gmail.com> <00ec01ca2aa7$bf741000$3e5c3000$@net> <402188520908311907n2e5a2a89y35e14fd6ea7c7e4e@mail.gmail.com> <003201ca2b06$8cff9a40$a6fecec0$@net> Message-ID: <200909010703553.SM01560@TOSHIBA-USER3.nosimport.com> What are "we" plumbing? I only do supply-side plumbing, though;-) PPP ====== At 08:17 AM 9/1/2009, Wm. Severin Thompson wrote: >Plans for SOS, the Erection are underway. It will take place the weekend of >Oct. 10 & 11. From wmseverin at charter.net Tue Sep 1 08:32:34 2009 From: wmseverin at charter.net (Wm. Severin Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:32:34 -0500 Subject: [Vintage-race] [Healeys] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend Oct. 10 In-Reply-To: <200909010703553.SM01560@TOSHIBA-USER3.nosimport.com> References: <10701925.199497.1251493278446.JavaMail.txtblapp@ip-10-250-131-129.ec2.internal> <402188520908311855r127a89fs1b57b2378ab4e71e@mail.gmail.com> <00ec01ca2aa7$bf741000$3e5c3000$@net> <402188520908311907n2e5a2a89y35e14fd6ea7c7e4e@mail.gmail.com> <003201ca2b06$8cff9a40$a6fecec0$@net> <200909010703553.SM01560@TOSHIBA-USER3.nosimport.com> Message-ID: <000901ca2b11$0c4f9160$24eeb420$@net> Well, there are 2 washrooms in the shop, a man's and a woman's, as it was a commercial site at one time. Don't need 2 toilets, but sure could use a shower there... so I bought one. We'd have to knock down a wall, and frame in the shower unit, and tie it into the former toilet drain. Copper's close to being done on the supply side. > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Caldwell [mailto:peter at nosimport.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 9:04 AM > To: Wm. Severin Thompson; 'David Lieb'; 'Spridgets' > Cc: Vintage-Race at Autox.Team.Net; team-thicko at autox.team.net; 'Healey > List' > Subject: Re: [Healeys] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend Oct. 10 > > What are "we" plumbing? > > I only do supply-side plumbing, though;-) > > PPP > ====== > At 08:17 AM 9/1/2009, Wm. Severin Thompson wrote: > >Plans for SOS, the Erection are underway. It will take place the > weekend of > >Oct. 10 & 11. From wmseverin at charter.net Tue Sep 1 10:00:37 2009 From: wmseverin at charter.net (Wm. Severin Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:00:37 -0500 Subject: [Vintage-race] [Spridgets] [Healeys] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend Oct. 10 In-Reply-To: <4A9D445E.9070301@comcast.net> References: <10701925.199497.1251493278446.JavaMail.txtblapp@ip-10-250-131-129.ec2.internal> <402188520908311855r127a89fs1b57b2378ab4e71e@mail.gmail.com> <00ec01ca2aa7$bf741000$3e5c3000$@net> <402188520908311907n2e5a2a89y35e14fd6ea7c7e4e@mail.gmail.com> <003201ca2b06$8cff9a40$a6fecec0$@net> <200909010703553.SM01560@TOSHIBA-USER3.nosimport.com> <000901ca2b11$0c4f9160$24eeb420$@net> <4A9D445E.9070301@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000f01ca2b1d$58d042d0$0a70c870$@net> We'll expect you for coffee. > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank [mailto:spritenut at comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:57 AM > To: Wm. Severin Thompson > Cc: 'Peter Caldwell'; 'David Lieb'; 'Spridgets'; 'Healey List'; team- > thicko at autox.team.net; Vintage-Race at Autox.Team.Net > Subject: Re: [Spridgets] [Healeys] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend > Oct. 10 > > Wm. Severin Thompson wrote: > > > >> > >> What are "we" plumbing? > >> > >> I only do supply-side plumbing, though;-) > >> > >> > > Plumbing is easy, hot on the left, cold on the right, shit don't go up > hill, coffee break is 10:00 sharp, payday on Friday. From wmseverin at charter.net Tue Sep 1 10:47:21 2009 From: wmseverin at charter.net (Wm. Severin Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:47:21 -0500 Subject: [Vintage-race] [Spridgets] [Healeys] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend Oct. 10 In-Reply-To: References: <000901ca2b11$0c4f9160$24eeb420$@net> Message-ID: <000901ca2b23$e0a37960$a1ea6c20$@net> Plenty of height to work with. > -----Original Message----- > From: spridgets-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:spridgets- > bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Billy Zoom > Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:30 AM > To: Wm. Severin Thompson; 'Peter Caldwell'; 'David Lieb'; 'Spridgets' > Cc: Vintage-Race at Autox.Team.Net; team-thicko at autox.team.net; 'Healey > List' > Subject: Re: [Spridgets] [Healeys] An SOS 09 Erection (Lift) weekend > Oct. 10 > > You'll probably have to make the shower base a step-up to get it above > the > drain. Aside from that it's a snap. > I have a hammer drill, if you can get Soave to pick it up. > _______________________________________________ From wmseverin at charter.net Thu Sep 10 06:25:18 2009 From: wmseverin at charter.net (Wm. Severin Thompson) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:25:18 -0500 Subject: [Vintage-race] ELVF Gather on the Green at the Osthoff Message-ID: <004101ca3211$c2708fb0$4751af10$@net> Hey y'all, My 20 piece big band will be entertaining at the VSCDA's Elkhart Lake Vintage Fall Festival at Road America this weekend. We'll be playing at the Gather on the Green car show over at the Osthoff, down by the lake from 5:30 to 7:00 pm on Saturday. The car show and music are free/open to the public. The band plays swing era standards. come on out. WST From mark at bradakis.com Sun Sep 13 17:04:13 2009 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:04:13 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Vintage-race] Whining time, Team.Net updates Message-ID: <20090913230413.3A7402E061@bradakis.com> Yes, I know that as the fellow behind the curtain who keeps Team.Net on the air, I do my share of whining. But the whining here is coming from one of the disks on the server, a bearing ready to fail in a few days, a couple of weeks, maybe not until 2010. Who knows? Rather than risk a sudden failure, it would be prudent to consider getting new hardware. And that is where you come in. I didn't have an official fund drive this year, though donations have come in at random times during the year. It seems to be time for those of you who have not recently contributed to step up and assist in keeping Team.Net on the air. If you have a few dollars to spare and desire to support this endeavor, check out the web page http://www.team.net/donate.html I, and thousands of folks around the planet would appreciate it. Gee, I haven't taken an actual count of all subscribers lately, I ought to do a headcount. On a related note, I have been doing a few things, like moving a few more lists from majordomo to mailman. Back when I started doing this about 20 years ago majordomo was the hot ticket. It is a bit outdated now, mailman is much more web friendly, hopefully much easier for you folks to use. Of course, there are those who still try to use majordomo to manage their mailman subscriptions, not much I can do about that! One thing I did was change the judson list, which was intended for discussion of classic Judson superchargers to superchargers at autox.team.net, opening it up for folks to discuss other brands. Feel free to go to the mailman page, http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo to sign up if you so desire. Actually I had hoped more folks would sign up for the-local list, a place for random discussion about all sorts of stuff. Tell a joke, review a movie, report the antics of your favorite public idiot, lament the last loss of your team, whatever. If there is a list you'd like to see, chances are I'd set one up, no problem. But for now, consider this an Official Team.Net fund drive, and assist as you can: http://www.team.net/donate.html Thanks! mjb. From sevenamerica at yahoo.com Tue Sep 15 12:29:51 2009 From: sevenamerica at yahoo.com (John Donohoe) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vintage-race] 1275 Aluminum Engine Back Plate Message-ID: <23612.2743.qm@web110707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Was someone on this list making aluminum back plates for the BMC 1275 or does anyone have one they're willing to part with? Thanks,John Donohoe From John.Desantis at Inficon.com Tue Sep 15 13:32:45 2009 From: John.Desantis at Inficon.com (John.Desantis at Inficon.com) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 15:32:45 -0400 Subject: [Vintage-race] Flat top haulmark trailer leaks Message-ID: The roof on my Haulmark trailer leaks - can anyone recommend a good product that will stick and seal. The roof is constructed of interlocked galvanized panels that overlap and are screwed to the frame around the edge. The leaks are around the edge at the overlap. The brush able seam sealer I tried worked great but was destroyed by the sun. John DeSantis Mechanical Engineer Inficon Phone 315-434-1196 Fax 315-437-3803 *********************************************************************** NOTICE: - This message including any attachments is intended only for the use of the designated recipient(s) named above and may contain confidential information protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the original message including any attachments. *********************************************************************** From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 15 14:08:26 2009 From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:08:26 -0700 Subject: [Vintage-race] Flat top haulmark trailer leaks References: Message-ID: <752CA4A5D543471AB4FA98549098BFD7@owner33025ef87> John, Go to an RV parts place and get a can of RV roof repair. It's like "liquid rubber" and brushes on. When it sets up it'll be 1.8" to a 1/4" thick and takes a set like silicone sealer (flexible, so it won't get brittle from the sun and crack). That's what I did for a similar problem and it worked OK. Carl Lotus 61 FF ----- Original Message ----- From: John.Desantis at Inficon.com To: vintage-race at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: [Vintage-race] Flat top haulmark trailer leaks The roof on my Haulmark trailer leaks - can anyone recommend a good product that will stick and seal. The roof is constructed of interlocked galvanized panels that overlap and are screwed to the frame around the edge. The leaks are around the edge at the overlap. The brush able seam sealer I tried worked great but was destroyed by the sun. John DeSantis Mechanical Engineer Inficon Phone 315-434-1196 Fax 315-437-3803 *********************************************************************** NOTICE: - This message including any attachments is intended only for the use of the designated recipient(s) named above and may contain confidential information protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the original message including any attachments. *********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Vintage-race at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-race From mgvrmark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 16 09:25:20 2009 From: mgvrmark at hotmail.com (Mark Palmer) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:25:20 +0000 Subject: [Vintage-race] GR8 WEATHER for NJ Historics! Message-ID: The weather forecast is EXCELLENT for our event this weekend, so if you've been holding off until now -- LATE ENTRIES WILL BE CHEERFULLY ACCEPTED! We're on the Lightning Circuit at New Jersey Motorsports Park this Friday, Saturday & Sunday. Based on National Weather Service and Weather.com sites, the forecast is: FRIDAY: High 76, mix of clouds & sun, 10% chance of precip SATURDAY: High 73, sunny, clear, no precip SUNDAY: High 74, mix of clouds & sun The schedule has been finalized and each race group will get OVER FOUR HOURS of track time! This is the only vintage event of the year on the Lightning Circuit, a fast 1.9-mile course with elevation changes. You are welcome to enter at the track, but it helps immensely if you can contact us ahead of time via e-mail, fax or phone. Entry form and more info available on the VRG web site at www.vrgonline.org E-mail to mark at vrgonline.org, fax to 610-954-9489, or call me at 610-867-6014 if needed. Hope to see you there! Mark Palmer VRG Event Chairman _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 16 11:16:12 2009 From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:16:12 -0700 Subject: [Vintage-race] GR8 WEATHER for NJ Historics! References: Message-ID: <9B414A428DB54531A7F5E7F5BCA16F8C@owner33025ef87> THAT sounds great, Mark! Everybody should be taking advantage of that weather before it starts snowing. Almost as bad as snow was the weather at the (HSR-West) Southern Calif Historics at Auto Club Speedway (formerly California Speedway) in June last year. Friday practice day: 114 degrees. Saturday: 111 degrees. Sunday: a 'tepid' 109. And six weeks before that, at the (HMSA) Reno Historics at Reno-Fernley Raceway: Friday: snowing and a high of 36. Saturday: rain showers and a high of 50. Sunday: clear, windy and a high of 56. And guess WHO forgot to bring their Easy-Up both times. Carl Lotus 61 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Palmer To: VRG Newsgroup ; vintage-race at autox.team.net ; Egroup MGVR Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:25 AM Subject: [Vintage-race] GR8 WEATHER for NJ Historics! The weather forecast is EXCELLENT for our event this weekend, so if you've been holding off until now -- LATE ENTRIES WILL BE CHEERFULLY ACCEPTED! We're on the Lightning Circuit at New Jersey Motorsports Park this Friday, Saturday & Sunday. Based on National Weather Service and Weather.com sites, the forecast is: FRIDAY: High 76, mix of clouds & sun, 10% chance of precip SATURDAY: High 73, sunny, clear, no precip SUNDAY: High 74, mix of clouds & sun The schedule has been finalized and each race group will get OVER FOUR HOURS of track time! This is the only vintage event of the year on the Lightning Circuit, a fast 1.9-mile course with elevation changes. You are welcome to enter at the track, but it helps immensely if you can contact us ahead of time via e-mail, fax or phone. Entry form and more info available on the VRG web site at www.vrgonline.org E-mail to mark at vrgonline.org, fax to 610-954-9489, or call me at 610-867-6014 if needed. Hope to see you there! Mark Palmer VRG Event Chairman _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Vintage-race at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-race From twobees at sprynet.com Wed Sep 16 13:54:01 2009 From: twobees at sprynet.com (Norm 2Bs) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:54:01 -0400 Subject: [Vintage-race] GR8 WEATHER for NJ Historics! In-Reply-To: <9B414A428DB54531A7F5E7F5BCA16F8C@owner33025ef87> Message-ID: <000001ca3707$7064bf70$6401a8c0@normoffice> Carl, et al. If you want some nice weather, great people & food, & good racing come on down to the VDCA December 11 to 13 event at Roebling Road, GA. We have classes for just about everything that isn't too new. Details and rules at: http://www.vintagedrive.com/ Yes, it gets real hot down here in Summer. But, from now until May, it's great. And, NO SNOW! Come on down, y'all! Norm Sippel '59 Turner Mk1 '60 Alfa Spider Normale -----Original Message----- From: vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:vintage-race-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Carl McLelland Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:16 PM To: Mark Palmer; VRG Newsgroup; vintage-race at autox.team.net; Egroup MGVR Subject: Re: [Vintage-race] GR8 WEATHER for NJ Historics! THAT sounds great, Mark! Everybody should be taking advantage of that weather before it starts snowing. Almost as bad as snow was the weather at the (HSR-West) Southern Calif Historics at Auto Club Speedway (formerly California Speedway) in June last year. Friday practice day: 114 degrees. Saturday: 111 degrees. Sunday: a 'tepid' 109. And six weeks before that, at the (HMSA) Reno Historics at Reno-Fernley Raceway: Friday: snowing and a high of 36. Saturday: rain showers and a high of 50. Sunday: clear, windy and a high of 56. And guess WHO forgot to bring their Easy-Up both times. Carl Lotus 61 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Palmer To: VRG Newsgroup ; vintage-race at autox.team.net ; Egroup MGVR Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:25 AM Subject: [Vintage-race] GR8 WEATHER for NJ Historics! The weather forecast is EXCELLENT for our event this weekend, so if you've been holding off until now -- LATE ENTRIES WILL BE CHEERFULLY ACCEPTED! We're on the Lightning Circuit at New Jersey Motorsports Park this Friday, Saturday & Sunday. Based on National Weather Service and Weather.com sites, the forecast is: FRIDAY: High 76, mix of clouds & sun, 10% chance of precip SATURDAY: High 73, sunny, clear, no precip SUNDAY: High 74, mix of clouds & sun The schedule has been finalized and each race group will get OVER FOUR HOURS of track time! This is the only vintage event of the year on the Lightning Circuit, a fast 1.9-mile course with elevation changes. You are welcome to enter at the track, but it helps immensely if you can contact us ahead of time via e-mail, fax or phone. Entry form and more info available on the VRG web site at www.vrgonline.org E-mail to mark at vrgonline.org, fax to 610-954-9489, or call me at 610-867-6014 if needed. Hope to see you there! Mark Palmer VRG Event Chairman _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Vintage-race at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-race You are subscribed as twobees at sprynet.com Vintage-race at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/vintage-race From franks97 at verizon.net Sat Sep 19 22:39:32 2009 From: franks97 at verizon.net (Franks) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 21:39:32 -0700 Subject: [Vintage-race] Oregon SCCA Vintage Regional Points Message-ID: The points for the Oregon Region SCCA Vintage run group are finally up to date and posted at: Thanks to everyone for your patience. -- David Franks franks97 at verizon.net 67 AH Sprite #82 Blue From sevenamerica at yahoo.com Wed Sep 23 06:28:11 2009 From: sevenamerica at yahoo.com (John Donohoe) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vintage-race] SimpleSevens Update, 1275 Cam Selection help, etc... Message-ID: <734125.90219.qm@web110716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Greetings fellows, Firstly, a couple nice Sevens have been added to SimpleSevens recently, as well as a couple of 'parts for sale' listings... if you haven't been by to check it out, do :-) http://www.simplesevens.org Second, some of you know I'm building a 'fast road' 1275 for temporary use in my Seven while I take my time on restoring a 948 race motor that was set up in the 1960's. The 1275 won't be too modified as I want it to be a good dependable cruising motor. So for this 1275, I already have a ported head, roller rockers are a likely possibility, and a pair of really cool race prepped 1 1/4 SU carbs -- mildly opened up intakes, wedged(?) damper piston, razor edged butterflies with throttle shaft trimmed and soldered to butterflies... you get the idea. I also already have a few aluminum goodies like back plate and flywheel. Anyway, I've never selected a cam before, and am not real sure where to start. As I said, it's a road car so I'd like it to be not too wild, and I'll want to run premium pump gas, so won't have too high compressio. Anyone with recommendations, I'd be happy to hear them. I also have a short list of parts my builder has recommended I include in the build, in the event that anyone has something taking up space on their bench -- I do have a bit of a budget for the project :-) ... - Adjustable cam timing gear- ARP bolt sets - rods, mains, head- 1.5:1 roller rockers- Baffled oil pan- Cam(!) And LASTLY, I will soon have Eric Prill's family Lotus Seven Racing story posted to SimpleSevens, but in the meantime, note that Eric will be racing his Seven in the Runoffs this Friday up at Road America... and he appears to be a serious contender :-) Cheers -- and Thank You for your continued interest! John DonohoeSimpleSevens.org From sevenamerica at yahoo.com Wed Sep 30 08:40:48 2009 From: sevenamerica at yahoo.com (John Donohoe) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vintage-race] For Sale: Wobbly Web Wheels Message-ID: <241705.85211.qm@web110705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> These are the current versions, made to the original specs. Included are the nifty chrome centre caps, proper wheel nuts, currently shod with Dunlop SP40 road tires... these wheels are ready to bolt on and run. I would prefer to sell them with tires, but will consider selling them without. Details here: http://www.simplesevens.org/NewWobblies Please contact me directly at johnd at simplesevens.org