[Tigers] Tigers Digest, Vol 16, Issue 143
Cars
cars at wt-inc.com
Thu Jul 20 20:00:34 MDT 2023
Fluidyne radiator and the fan came with the front runner system. Electric. Ran by the engine management system. However the most important part is that it is fitted and mounted into a custom FULL shroud
However my first tiger 465 hp stroked 331 had a flex fan with a Ron Davis radiator. Everything else stock. I made a new shroud that was complete and fit well. No problem with heat at all. LAT hood with functioning rear vents. The hood needs to be modified to make the vents functional.
Just did one for a customer. Warmed up 289 stock radiator tanks but the rest modified by Tom Hall. Complete shroud. Ran as cool as can be.
The key, in my opinion, is the shroud. Until that is addressed (and horn block offs). Everything else is guess and prayer
Studies have show. That the thermal efficiency/weight advantages of aluminum are marginal. Basically brass is just as good. Aluminum is flashy. But you will struggle getting it repaired. They are pretty much disposable. In many instances the end tanks are epoxied on.
Having said that, I have aluminum in every car but my my mini, model A and mustang.
My 2 cents
Lynn
Sent from my mobile device
On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:11 PM, M Lafayette <coolvt at aol.com> wrote:
Lynn, Stock radiator? And, what fan?
In a message dated 7/20/2023 5:37:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cars at wt-inc.com writes:
With a proper full shroud it would work well. Probably be enough with Horn block offs.
I am running a 347 stroker, 565 ish HP and full air conditioning and never get over 185-195 degrees with A/C in 100 degree heat. Can do it all day.
Lynn
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of M Lafayette via Tigers
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 12:13 PM
To: atwittsend at verizon.net; tigers at autox.team.net<mailto:tigers at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tigers Digest, Vol 16, Issue 143
In speaking to a rep. from a fan company years ago, he mentioned that a "puller" elect. fan would cool either 2 or 3 times (can't remember the number) as well as a "pusher" elect. fan. Makes sense since modern cars seems to use puller elctric's. Has anyone tried just one good elect. puller on a Tiger?
Mark
In a message dated 7/20/2023 1:58:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tigers at autox.team.net<mailto:tigers at autox.team.net> writes:
As I was reading your "journey" when you got to the Flex-a-Lite fan (initial item #6) I thought it might be suspect. Most people seem to have success with the Maverick fan, the Volvo fan or a particular Derale fan. I can see where a pusher fan might impede airflow of a mechanical puller fan but not the other way where a puller fan impedes the flow of a pusher fan. That said given the "Flex" aspect of the Flex-a-Lite fan I wonder if it creates a "wall of wind" and was causing the overheating issue. Without smoke to see the flow of air movement I'm always baffled by things that blow over - and those that don't, leaves that deposit in one area of the yard - and not another. So, whatever the flex fan was doing it seems germane to the itself as others have not had the same issue with the recommended fans and a pusher fan. I won't ask if the fan was installed backwards (you seen way smarter than that) but does the possibility exist that the fan design was for counter rotation? With serpentine belts in cars these days the rotation of the water pump is often opposite of earlier engines of the same design. The good news is that you found a solution to your problem. Enjoy the ride.
On 7/20/2023 7:47 AM, Joel Martin via Tigers wrote:
Tiger Running hot – Shotgun Approach after time of trying baby steps.
After about a year of struggling with car running hot at idle with the hood down, Hot to me is 195 degrees and above. I took drastic steps. I have been driving the car during the last year only on back roads with not much chance of traffic lights and traffic. I live in rural NC outside of Pinehurst.
Bloody yahoo mail formatting ruined numbering copied from MS Word, so please ignore.
1. Purchased and installed Sunbeam Specialties (SS) gloss black radiator overflow tank, missing from car.
2. Purchased and installed overflow tank straps from Alexander Washick alw6464 at gmail.com<mailto:alw6464 at gmail.com> which are powder coated, missing from car.
1. Purchased and installed undersize water pump pulley from Robert Straghan <rgstraghan at yahoo.ca><mailto:rgstraghan at yahoo.ca> scuffed, primed and painted semi gloss black
2. Purchased and installed horn hole block plates from Don Lutjen <dlutjen55 at gmail.com><mailto:dlutjen55 at gmail.com> scuffed, primed and painted semi gloss black.
3. Purchased and installed new taller custom aluminum cross flow side tank radiator from Griffin Radiator.
4. Purchased and installed new Flow Kooler water pump BRA-1680 painted Ford dark blue to match engine replacing SS water pump, pressed hub to line up.
5. Modified the mechanical fan spacer so that front of fan is 1” from radiator.
6. Mechanical fan remains Flex-a-Lite 14” nylon 6 blade fan.
7. Purchased and installed new SS lower radiator and overflow to radiator hoses.
8. New top radiator hose from local source, as SS hose would not fit taller radiator.
9. New fan belt.
10. Purchased and refurbished original Tiger fan shroud which would not fit as I did not want to cut a original shroud top mounting bracket to fit my taller radiator. Striped, primed and painted used shroud semi gloss black – sitting on shelf.
11. Installed 160 degree thermostat from 180. Could not find 170 degree. If anyone has a part number and supplier for a 170-degree thermostat, please forward.
So at this point I do not have a fan shroud – unless make up a custom. Other changes could make is front air dam and block front cross member to bottom of radiator spacing but for now I am going to see how things play out this summer.
Ok after all the above I was still not satisfied with watching the temperature gauge increase while at idle or in stop and go traffic. Goal was to keep the temperature at ALL times between 180 and 190 degrees whether driving or at idle.
The following changes have been made since the above changes 1-13 after trial period of 6 months or so.
The Flow Kooler water pump started leaking so I purchased the SS water pump and installed it and drove for a month or so. Install error on the Flow Kooler water pump gasket turned out to be the problem. The SS water pump actually raised idle temps 2-3 degrees so I would later reinstall the Flow Kooler with a new gasket.
1. Installed a couple of 12” electric pusher fans I had in the garage and wired a manual off/on switch under the dash with a relay. Not much help or change in idle temperature while at stoplights or stop\go traffic.
2. Built and installed a custom fan shroud. Remember I have an oversize Griffin radiator. This change resulted in idle temp. drop by maybe 2-3 degrees. Goal not achieve at this point but getting better.
3. I then discussed issue with Flex-a-lite technical services hot line (multiple times) regarding their electric pusher fan line.
* The rule of thumb they recommend: Electric fans of either the pusher or puller type should be that the electric fan should cover 70% of the radiator surface. Mine came out to 69.5% coverage.
* Small block V-8 engines recommendation is 3,000 CFM.
* Flex - a- Lite had only 1 fan that met these specifications.
FLX-105391<https://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-105391>
Electric Fan, Pusher, Flex-Wave, Single, 16 in. Diameter, 3,000 cfm, Black, 20 amps,
(Mfr. #: 239)
* Also purchased temp probe and relay from Flex – a Lite which is adjustable so you can set when the fan comes on. Off is 10 degrees from on temp and is NOT adjustable.
FLX-121281<https://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-121281>
Fan Control, Compact, Adjustable, Thread-in Probe, Single Fan, Kit
(Mfr. #: 33095)
e. Also purchased temperature probe adapter and installed in the upper radiator hose.
FLX-107078<https://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-107078>
Radiator Hose Adapter, Aluminum, Fits 1 1/2 in. Hose, Has Two 1/4 in. NPT Ports, Includes One Plug, Each
(Mfr. #: 32082)
The idea was to run the stock temp gauge probe into the adapter and keep my mechanical temperature gauge in place in the manifold to verify stock gauge was pretty accurate. The ¼ NPT port would not handle the stock probe and I could not find 1/4 probe with the correct ohms for the stock gauge, so manual temp gauge is still in place which I believe is accurate.
f. Goal still not achieved
1. Flex - a - Lite then offered the following advice – “You typically only need one or the other. If you have a mechanical fan and just want extra cooling in stop and go traffic, I suggest you use a much smaller electric fan. But using both a mechanical and this bigger electric fan will probably cause some disruption.” The two smaller electric fans I used did not work in my case, so advice about smaller electric fan in conjunction with mechanical water pump fan did not work in my particular car.
Plan …. Reinstalled the Flow Kooler water pump with new gasket.
* Removed the mechanical fan from the water pump and the 1” spacer. Finally success! Temp stays between 176 and 190 at ALL times regardless of ambient temperature and traffic conditions. So, in my case, the mechanical fan in conjunction with the electric fan was causing air flow disruption.
* The temp at speed above 35 mph, the car runs around 176 degrees with 160 degree thermostat in temps 90 degrees and less. About 183 in temperatures above 90, so not a issue. I might try out the 180 degree thermostat at some point, 170 if I could find one might be optimum for my car. The only down side for me is the electric fan is noisy when running and volts on volt gauge drops around ½ - ¾- volt when the fan comes on.. The battery volts dropping are due to fan drawing 20 amps. This has not been a issue with lights on or off. I have a alternator and not the generator so with generator cars, this might be an issue. Now I cannot hear the electric fan at all inside the car but outside, it is noisy when running. Headers, 2.25" exhaust pipes with Flow Master series 40 mufflers. I wonder why I cannot hear fan running.
So you see I have tried almost all recommended suggestions except lower shroud addition and air dam to direct airflow.
Every car reacts differently to changes and you have to keep trying different approaches that might work for your car and temperature\humidity of the area you reside.
What changes I have made to me that had the biggest result and what would I try again in what order to minimize cost, effort and work involved.
Yahoo formatting again.
Test temp gauge and sender to ensure reading properly.
1. Ensure radiator in good working order.
2. Change thermostat from 180 to 170 then 160.
3. Install horn block off plates, minimal cost and about 1 hour to install.
4. Fan shroud if you do not have one, 2-3 degrees improvement in my case, custom made. Possible making of the lower portion of the shroud as well, which I have not done.
5. Undersize water pump pulley and at same time, try a different mechanical fan and ensure fan is 1” from radiator.
6. Flow Kooler water pump BRA-1680, 2-3 degrees improvement in my case
7. New Griffin radiator. They sell a package for the Tiger with radiator, electric fan and shroud. Remember my radiator is a custom oversize radiator install by previous owner and the stock Griffin radiator or package would not work in my case but I have installed a new custom Griffin radiator.
8. Remove mechanical fan and install electric pusher fan that covers 70% of your radiator surface and moves 3,000 cfm’s as recommended for small block V-8 motors. Items 8 and 9 could be in reverse order and step 9 will not necessary if you purchase the Griffin Tiger package, your call.
So you see I have tried almost all recommended suggestions except lower shroud addition and air dam to direct air flow and have finally met my goal of keeping the temperature between 180 to 190 degrees in all driving conditions. I hope my trials and findings will help you moving forward. Any questions, please ask.
Regards
Joel Martin
On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 09:09:34 PM EDT, tigers-request at autox.team.net<mailto:tigers-request at autox.team.net> <tigers-request at autox.team.net><mailto:tigers-request at autox.team.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Cooling Fan (LARRY PAULICK)
Joe, I did an article for Tigers United, that describes with photographs what I did for the full fans shroud.
TigersUnited.com<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
tigersunited.com<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
BTW, Tigers United has a lot of great articles covering the variety of subjects. You might want to check it out. <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
On Jul 19, 2023, at 10:31 AM, Joe Brown <jbbrown1980 at gmail.com> wrote:<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Thanks for all of the replies. I have a mostly stock engine (with Edelbrock intake and 4 bbl.) and stock radiator. I have a temperature gauge mounted on the intake and the engine seems to run a little over 200 at idle but I haven't had any problems while driving the car. My problem right now is that I took the car out one afternoon when the temperature was over 100 degrees and when I pulled into the garage and shut the engine off it puked some water onto the floor. The temp gauge was showing around 250 degrees at that point. <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
I already have the lower shroud on my radiator and I am making some horn opening covers today. I will also look at blocking off the area below the radiator. I have read all of the articles that people have referred to and I believe I have an airflow problem at low speeds. So I was just looking for pusher fan recommendations at this point. <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
The best advice is to probably not drive in 100+ degree weather.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Thanks,<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Joe Brown<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 8:33 AM LARRY PAULICK via Tigers <tigers at autox.team.net> wrote:<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
I made a custom lower fan shroud, as one does not exist for the stock tiger, fan shroud. I did smoke test with the car at idle and the air comes through the radiator down towards the ground and circles back through the radiator again. So essentially you're just recycling hot air from your own radiator. It works. <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
On Jul 19, 2023, at 2:03 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd at gmail.com> wrote:<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
I think michael hit the nail on the head. first need to know is it overheating when stationary / moving slowly or at speed? <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
a pusher fan will only help at very low speed or when stopped. and spal is the go to brand. still need the horn holes and gap between cross member and rad blocked. cardboard and zip ties does the trick quickly and can be replaced with a more permanent solution later if you want. also need a fan shroud. <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
personally i've never needed the electric pusher fan because i have a small 13" flex fan on the water pump pulley. that creates enough pull through the radiator at idle.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
if its overheating at more than 30/40mph then its another problem entirely and there are a variety of other things to check.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
in my case its fuel boiling in the carb under certain conditions (slowing down after running fast in really high ambient temps above a particular altitude) rather than coolant temp which is the problem. there are a bunch of things i could do there, most importantly a carb heat shield, but i've only suffered from it once.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
one thing i've found very useful for debugging cooling issues in the tiger over the years is having a glass gano filter in the rad top hose. at least you can see how the coolant is circulating which helps with thermostat or water pump issues and if you're used to how it should look, even how blocked the radiator is.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 7:41 AM Jim B via Tigers <tigers at autox.team.net> wrote:<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
I’ve been reading about cooling issues with tigers for more that a decade (much less than some reading this) blocking horn holes, pusher fans, and shrouds etc etc. Entire studies have been done on this issue. Just check STOA, CAT or any club site. All good reads! I think the first place to start is knowing what the actual engine team really is. We all know that the original temp guage can be off. The other thing is: as a dyed in the wool ford guy, 185 degrees is the optimal engine temp. But, Ford engines can get to 195-200 degrees easily and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, I put a pusher in mine only because I had one. I’m not really sure is does anything. My original guage can show 225-230 on a hot day (humidity plays a bitg role) but never has pucked out fluid. The design of the should is an issue. It lets hot air from the engine compartment to get under the radiator. Many, many, ‘fixes’ that can be done. However, on a hot low humidity day.. well good luck. JMO <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
On Jul 18, 2023, at 8:40 PM, Allan Ballard <aballard at ix.netcom.com> wrote:<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
The article includes several suggestions. <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
One of them is to seal the missing section of the stock fan shroud at the bottom.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
A list member offered a piece he fabricated.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
I obtained one and here are a couple of pictures. I hope to fit it later this year.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Even a few degrees of cooling will be worth the effort.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Allan Ballard<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Mk1a Tiger<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<image0.jpeg><image1.jpeg><http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Sent from my iPhone<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
On Jul 18, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Jay Laifman <jay.laifman at gmail.com> wrote:<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Have you looked at this cooling suggestions? http://tigersunited.com/techtips/SteveLaifmanValance/pt-SteveLaifmanValance1.asp <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
It works great in Southern California heat.<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 3:42 PM Joe Brown <jbbrown1980 at gmail.com> wrote:<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
My Tiger can't keep up with this 100 degree weather in Texas. I've read through the article by Tiger Tom and Chuck King and I will make some of the suggested modifications. They listed two different pusher electric fans in the article but both of them are no longer available. <http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
So, has anybody recently installed a pusher fan? If so, what part numbers?<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Thanks,<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
Joe Brown<http://tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickShroud/pt-PaulickShroud.asp>
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