[Tigers] FW: Evans Waterless Cooling
Ron Fraser
rfraser at bluefrog.com
Wed Jul 6 08:20:05 MDT 2022
Darn forgot to send to list again
Ron
From: Ron Fraser <rfraser at bluefrog.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2022 10:19 AM
To: 'Robert Wanty' <bobwanty at gmail.com>; 'Larry Mayfield' <drmayf at mayfco.com>
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
Bob
Experiments by Ford and others show that there is minimal engine wear at 180 degrees. Today I believe the thermostats are around 195 to 210 degrees. This keeps all the fluids, oil and ATF, at optimum operating temp.
I did some work for a friend on his 5.0L Mustang, a number of little upgrades. One of the items was a 160 thermostat. I spent about an hour telling him not to go there, that he would hate it but he insisted. Later, he told me he hated it. MPG was down and he had little cabin heat.
Ron Fraser
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers-bounces at autox.team.net> > On Behalf Of Robert Wanty via Tigers
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2022 7:32 AM
To: Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com <mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com> >
Cc: tigers <tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net> >
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
I have a MK1 with a 260 bored 0.030 over with a mild cam, headers, ford cast iron 4bbl intake, stock cooling system. The thermostat is a 160 and I was told that the cooling system would work better with a 180 thermostat because the system would work more efficiently and shed more heat at the higher temperature. Not sure if this is true but seems as though that may make sense.
I found that if the air temperature is below 70 the car runs around 120, above 80 degrees at cruising speed it stays around 160 and around 220 at idle. Not sure what happens when the air temperature is above 85 to 90 because it is no fun driving around in a microwave so I drive a backup 911 with ac.
My 2 cents on the subject.
Bob
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free. <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> www.avg.com
On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:19 PM Larry Mayfield via Tigers <tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net> > wrote:
Thank you for the suggestion on finding the paper. I used exactly your suggestion, i.e. “Tiger Tom and tiger cooling study” and it was the first thing that popped up, lol. I have scanned it and will do a more detailed review for myself as a bit of time goes on.
I must say these experimenters did a pretty fair job at setting up and conducting the experiment and making comparisons. I am going to comment of the state of rigor for the experiment and what the, what I call missing, elements of the experiment, could mean to the final results. It is going to be long winded, a natural tendency of mine, lol.
It was not very rigorous, in my opinion. Let me explain, lest I be pilloried. There are many parameters for the air and coolant conditions, the state of tune for the engine, that affect the results which do not seem to have been addressed as the “Why does it overheat at idle?” question, at least, I think that was the question. So, just who the dickens am I to question anything that these men did? Well, I spent 30+ years as a test engineer and manager for a large Aerospace company and did a lot of test analyses preceded by test design to make sure that the UUT was set up to produce the spec conditions and thus the results as nearly as perfectly as could be determined. What these testers did was pretty dad gummed good.
A. The first thing was just how bad was the engine over heating at idle? The conditions should have contained a detailed description of the same parameters used in the test. The atmospheric conditions, the absolute air temperature, the absolute air pressure (not baro), the humidity, and altitude, entering the system. The system is defined as everything surrounding the vehicle. Why is this important? Well, the conditions need to be replicated each time a test run is made. If you want to know that the changes made later have an effect, plus or minus. Take humidity, humid air has less air in it, lol. Water vapor is less dense that the atmospheric make up and that means that the heat transfer rate is altered. Wha? Yes, heat is absorbed by the mass of coolant flowing both in the system and then into the ambient air. The cooling air enthalpy and entropy can be calculated, with the help of ‘steam’ tables and charts with this data as to how well the ambient can cool something. Flow rate of the cooling air is a key element but so is the actual mass of the air (with humidity) that flows through the radiator and into the engine compartment, and then into the surrounding ambient air. Heat only flows from hot to cold and the smaller the difference, the less heat is removed. For instance: the air flow rate can be measured at some altitude with a low pressure but at seal level with the same conditions of temp have less mass. Again, it is the mass of and the particulars of the air’s make up that is important If the test was conducted in a closed room for the idle issue, then the air was a few degrees warmer. If outside, the temp and abs pressure (psia) is needed along with the humidity to know how well the system was performing.
B. The engine coolant needs to be examined in detail. As has been stated, water is the VERY best heat transfer fluid. Adding radiator antifreeze is more than just to prevent the coolant from freezing, it also increases the boiling point. But it also adds protection to the iron and aluminum and other metallic components through which the coolant flows. An analysis for the constituents of the coolant could be made to determine just how effective it is as a heat transfer mechanism both in the engine and radiator at operating conditions. The flow rate through the radio need quantifying: a flow meter placed into the radiator water pump feed would be an excellent place to start. The flow rate with coolant out and the exit temperature and pressure measured, And the ambient conditions at that time, a better analysis of any changes can be made. It should be noted that there are two other methods of cooling that come into play as well. That is convection and conduction. The conduction of heat through the block, the oil in the pan and pan, the head(s), and anything that has coolant in it all come into play, so al the heat transfer coefficients of the materials need to be acquired along with their surface area and external conditions found in order to get an accurate analysis. Another is radiation from the surfaces of the engine. The heat signatures or the infrared heat so to speak send heat out as photons heating everything the radiation touches. And convection, the air that cools the exterior of the engine as well as the engine bay must have air flow to remove the heat: those surfaces all need to be monitored as well.
C. Lastly, for me anyway, is the state of turn of the engine. The air fuel ration needs to be monitored and the engine put into the best operating performance it can achieve. For instance, a lean burn is hotter, so if the AFR is high then as most racer know, the system will melt pistons (been there, done that). The stochiometric air fuel ratio needs to be the same for every test. At the best burn value. Even a too rich burn can cause excess heat. The engine air inlet temp and air pressure should be monitored for analysis of fuel burn condition that leads to unexpected heat being generated. Flow meters on the engine air intake and fuel as well as air and fuel temperature are needed.
Was the experiment invalid? No, it was not. It provided useful, information that many had not through about and there are things that were made to that should have changed the results more than they appeared to change. I congratulate them for the effort they put into this!
If I was to do this experiment today, I would use a lot of electronics for concise parameter recording and then do a deeper analysis of the effect of the changeable components. I would get myself an Arduino Mega 2560 module, a pile of temp sensors to stock on everything , a handful of pressure sensors, water and fuel flow meters, A good thermodynamics textbook and go at it. The Arduino IDE has a serial data output capability which can be recorded as well as a serial plotter which can display and record all the data channels virtually simultaneously. All can be exported to excel if needed for individual parameter display.
Or just drive and remind yourself that this car was designed a long time ago an dstuff just sometimes has to be accepted, lol. I would consider doing a repeat of the work done to date with my additions, except for the notion that I am not in the twilight of my years, but rather closer to the cinderela time, the clock is ticking now for sure at me approaching 81 years of age and slowing way, way, down.
Mayf, twfs 210.779 mph out the back door…
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers-bounces at autox.team.net> > On Behalf Of LARRY PAULICK via Tigers
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2022 6:40 AM
To: Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd at gmail.com <mailto:owain.lloyd at gmail.com> >
Cc: tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
Dr. M, check the Tigers East Alpine East website or do a web search for Tiger Tom and tiger cooling study. This is a very good starting point for finding that study, others may have a direct source.
On Jul 3, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd at gmail.com <mailto:owain.lloyd at gmail.com> > wrote:
Buck, I live in the southern alps :)
40 Celsius and 2500m. But was doing the same at normal temps and altitudes.
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 22:13 Buck Trippel <bucktrippel at verizon.net <mailto:bucktrippel at verizon.net> > ha scritto:
Owain, have you encountered either high outside air temps or high altitudes when using Evans in your Tiger?
Buck
From: Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd at gmail.com <mailto:owain.lloyd at gmail.com> >
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:42 AM
To: LARRY PAULICK <lpaulick1 at verizon.net <mailto:lpaulick1 at verizon.net> >
Cc: Buck Trippel <bucktrippel at verizon.net <mailto:bucktrippel at verizon.net> >; tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
Assuming all those things are done, evans is still not quite up to the job in my car. Most of those cooling tricks are for slow moving car. My car ran too hot even at speed with evans and the less than perfect radiator. As I said, with a better radiator or with water instead it is fine.
My reason for preferring brass is that it can be easily soldered. I struggled on for a long time with my brass radiator but eventually it was just too stress fatigued and needed frequent repair. If I could get a new brass one I would certainly prefer that.
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 17:36 LARRY PAULICK <lpaulick1 at verizon.net <mailto:lpaulick1 at verizon.net> > ha scritto:
Another issue is aluminum versus brass radiators. Aluminum radiators are lighter but brass transfers heat more efficiently.
When I redid my tiger, I used a three row versus a stock two row brass retaining the top, bottom, and sides so that the fit was not affected.
Also if you're replacing or having overheating problems, a closed impeller type water pump is much more efficient. Some aftermarket companies sell them already set up this way, but you can buy just the impeller plate from Summit for a very low price and install it yourself. Pumping efficiency is greatly improved.
TEAE did a study many years ago on all aspects of cooling. This excellent engineering study is still applicable today and well worth reading, dispelling a lot of myths.
Another design problem with the tiger is that there is no lower portion of the fan shroud. As a result, hot air is removed from the radiator then goes down to the ground and circles back through the front of the radiator, at rest.
I know this for a fact since I did smoke test and watched the air recirculating.
I fabricated a lower fan shroud from sheet metal, and made a low cost plastic air dam that comes down about 4 inches, to help the flow of air through the radiator and continue towards the rear of the car while in motion.
Bottom line it all works and I don't overheat.
I have to laugh at the commentos who keeps saying that the V8 takes up so much space that that's why they overheat. Just look at today's cars and how they fill the engine bay and it becomes apparent this is another myth.
On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd at gmail.com <mailto:owain.lloyd at gmail.com> > wrote:
Yep. I run in most cars with no problems but in the tiger with the 500hp motor I needed every bit of efficiency possible so had to switch off even back to water and antifreeze. It worked sort of ok with the dale radiator but then I switched to another brand radiator and it just couldn’t keep the temps down. Pretty sure it would be doable with an efficient and lower power motor if all the other cooling problems were taken care of.
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 16:05 Buck Trippel via Tigers <tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net> > ha scritto:
In August of the hot summer of 2019 (aren’t they all hot now?) I put Evans in a Tiger which has an excellent two row aluminum radiator in front of a rather stock 289. My wife and I put the Tiger through an almost 5-thousand mile road test by driving from Los Angeles to La Crosse via I80/I90 to attend the TEAE United and then Route 66 on the way home. Temperatures were frequently at 100 degrees. So it got quite a test.
The Evans did not boil but with hot outside air temperatures its inferior specific heat (to water) could not remove adequately remove the engine heat.
The carb got so hot the fuel percolated (boiled) inside the bowls and the engine stalled lean. This weakness was exacerbated at altitudes above 4-thousand feet. In Pueblo, with OATs near 100 I ended up on the same AAA tow truck twice on the same day. I then gave up and reluctantly drained maybe half of the the costly coolant out, replacing it with plain water so I could get home. However the percolation reoccurred crossing the Mojave in the 115 degree August temps. At home I replaced the Evans with water, adding Water Wetter for corrosion protection.
I don’t have the numbers off the top of my head but the specific heat (or ability to transfer heat) of water is 1.00 while Evans is something like .65 or only 2/3 that of water. For me, Evans just did not do the job. From my experience I’d say one would have to be exceptionally brave to use it, especially with a stock radiator system or with a more powerful engine which will place even more demand on the Tiger’s weak cooling system. (BTW in the Tiger we drove on that trip, we had removed the stock block under the carb that hot radiator fluid passes through which probably have made even more of a problem.)
Buck Trippel
Ps I wrote up some of this years ago and I believe it contained a more detailed account of Evans heating issues on the trip – I think it was published in both the TEAE and CAT newletters.
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers-bounces at autox.team.net> > On Behalf Of Dr. T. Y. McDowell
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 5:06 AM
To: Tiger's List <tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net> >
Subject: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
Is anyone out there in Tigerland using Evans Waterless Coolant?
It has a boiling point of 375 (F). I'd like to hear from anyone who's using it as I'm considering it.
Thanks in advance,
Tym McDowell
_______________________________________________
tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/owain.lloyd@gmail.com
_______________________________________________
<mailto:tigers at autox.team.net> tigers at autox.team.net
Donate: <http://www.team.net/donate.html> http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: <http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers> http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers <http://autox.team.net/archive> http://autox.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe: <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/lpaulick1@verizon.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/lpaulick1@verizon.net
_______________________________________________
tigers at autox.team.net <mailto:tigers at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/bobwanty@gmail.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free. <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> www.avg.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/tigers/attachments/20220706/07fd6d8c/attachment-0001.htm>
More information about the Tigers
mailing list