[Tigers] Fw: Overheating

[Joel Martin]

----- Forwarded Message -----
 From: Joel Martin <jmartiniii at yahoo.com>
 To: Tiger List Serve <tigers at autox.team.net> 
 Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 11:52 AM
 Subject: Overheating
   
First I would thank everyone who has responded.  What I take away from everyone’s responsesis that it is either an air flow or parts mismatch. First, a couple of items to clarify regarding my specificcar.   
   - There is no radiator expansion tank – not on car when purchased in 1979
   - The radiator is not a stock radiator – top and bottom header tank, not vertical side tanks. The radiator has a new core.  Not aluminum. 
   - The hood is not a stock hood, on car when purchased.  It is a modified LAT option hood with a scoop in the front and the small cut outs above the headers which hold the hood pins.  I have attached a couple of pictures.
   - I have 2 plugs inside the inlet and outlet hose of the heater control valve due to 3 diaphragms(valves) having gone bad and spewing coolant in the engine compartment.  First valve was SS CS55 then 2 Moss valves. I did it this way to keep the valve in place to look correct until I could resolve overheating issue and then get another  valve.
   - At first I had a electrical temperature sensor SS – ME59 with a stock temp gauge rebuilt by Nisonger.  No confidence in electrical readings so currently have a mechanical unit (capillary tube) sending unit with AutoMeter gauge zip tied under dash to ensure getting correct readings.
   - Believe to be stock water pump pulley
   - Motor was run on engine stand in machine shop for over 30 minutes staying at 185/190 before installation – no changes on motor since then, same timing cover, water pump, different thermostat.
 As I do not know too much about parts matching other thanwhat I have read.  I will lay out what Ihave done and let you all tell me if I have a issue here.  Meaning misaligned water jackets as possiblyan issue or parts mismatch per Joe Overton questions1.  Block is a(cannot find code) believed to be a 70’s 302 block outof a Lincoln  bored to .030 over withsealed power pistons at about 9:7 compression ratio.   
   - Heads are HIPO heads, part # 289 19 C30E 4A 14
3.  Water pump purchased from Sunbeam Specialties (SS) TM32 Aluminum   
   - Rod bearings .010 – Clevite CB634P
   - Main bearings .020 – CleviteMS590P
   - Valve springs – 110@ 1.800” – PBM3700
   - Camshaft – 224/234 @ .050 .496-.520 – Erson E212026.  351 camshaft spec – changed firing order to 13726548
   - Timing chain, double row – PBM702
   - Lifters – PBM – HA900
   - Intake valve 1.781 – SBI 01001
   - Exhaust valve 1.451 – SBI 01000
   - Oil pump – not high volume – Mellings M68
   - Petronix Flame Thrower Igniter distributor from CJ Pony Parts DIST35 UPC - 694342535964  Part # D134600 Cast Ford small block - Black Cap
   - SS - Petronix Flame Thrower HP Coil # 40511 3.0 ohm Black
   - MSD Box - 6AL
   - Thermostat housing -Scott Drake - exact match  C5OE-8592-A
   - Timing chain cover C30E - 6059 B     (HEFF(EL?)
   - Intake Manifold C40E 9425 – B
   - Carburetor Holly 600 CFM
   - SS headers
   - 2 – 8 “ Electric fans in front of radiator Perma-Cool PRM 19128  -  2400 CFM each
 Rob Hogan questions: Ron Frazer also indicated relationship of fan to shroudIMHO, you do not want the fan that close to the radiatorbecause it will predominantly pull air from a smaller area in front of the faninstead of a distributed area of the entire radiator.  The fan blades rearedges should optimally be exposed outside the shroud rear edge by about 1/2inch or 10-20% of the blades' front to back width.  The radiator needs ameans of venting any trapped air.  That is what the small tube's functionwas on the stock Tiger radiator, venting to the expansion tank.  I knowthese details about fans because I designed cooling fans for 14 years for theFord F250, 350, V10, Dodge Cummins diesel and many other applications. Many owners have had a major cooling improvement with the Griffin radiator.            Answers:  1. Front of fan blade ( 14” 6 blade) is 1 3/8” from radiator2.     Back of fan blade is ~ ½” INSIDE of shroud  Larry Mayfield questions:1)      Do you have to correct water pump? How do you know youdo? If for some reason you installed a later 5.0L water pump, they used aserpentine belt and run opposite rotation.  A. Water pump purchasedfrom Sunbeam Specialties (SS) TM32 Aluminum 2)     2) what radiator fluid are youusing? Distilled water, tap water, full on antifreeze, or what. Water is thevery best heat transfer medium that can be used. Anything else detract fromactual cooling of components.  A. 50/50 Anti-Freeze, tap water, with 12oz Royal Purple 3) Where did you get the temp sensor and where is itinstalled in the system?  Is it flaky? And is it grounded properly? A.  electrical temperature sensor SS – ME59 witha stock temp gauge rebuilt by Nisonger. No confidence in electrical readings so currently have a mechanical unit(capillary tube) sending unit with AutoMeter gauge zip tied under dash toensure getting correct readings.  3)      you mentioned a supplemental mechanical temp gauge – doesit read the same or at least in the same ball park as the electrical one? How muchdifferent and what are the locations for each one?  A. Not sure if it reads the same or not.  Just installed AutoMeter mechanical unitunder the dash for now zip tied to hood release knob. 4)     5) How did you fill the systemwith coolant? (I think this is the real problem!).  A.  This was awhileback but filled in block by way of thermostat, then installed thermost withsmall hole drilled in 180 degree. Filled radiator, left cap off ran motor, when thermostat openeddisconnected hose from top of manifold to heater control valve into a container to ensure no air in motor.  Now the guy who made the shroud last weekhad the radiator out and I am now sure how he did it but I had instructed toremove hose at heater control valve when running to ensure all air out of block– I should probably do this again myself to be sure or another procedure? 5)     6) Is you electric fan running inthe correct direction? I mean is it actually moving air across the radiatortowards the engine? If it was supposed to be mounted on the engine side and itis now in front of the radiator then the rotation needs to be reversed.  A.  Yes fans located in front of radiator and Iverified air without engine running are moving from front of car throughradiator via feel and morning cigar smoke while in the garage. 6)     7) Why did you get rid of theoverflow or header tank? It serves a purpose. A.  The car did not have one when I bought it in1979 7)     8) Is the fan belt tight?  A: Fan belt has 9/16” play as of this AM. New belt with about 80 miles on it as generator was swapped out for a100 amp American Made alternator with older CAT one piece bracket. Regulatorwas dummied up per Ron Frazier’s write up on TE so it would retain stock lookand installed a Jager volt meter instead of the AMP gauge. Head gasket on wrong has been brought up:  40 plus years as machine shop owner, I wouldbloody hope so but is there anyway to check other than pulling carb andmanifold? Michael King questions and things to check:Lets go through a few basics. A ford Windsor running at 200is not overheating, its warm. That said we all prefer them running lower thanthat in general.  A. 210 – 220 thenstarts blowing coolant out the overflow.

It is interesting that it doesnt cool down once on the move.That said a stock cooling system in correct condition should handle normaldriving. 

A few basic things to check:*Is the thermostat opening fully allowing water to flowcorrectly?  A. Seems to.  Cap off, thermostat opens, water flowingacross top of radiator, not out. *are all the hoses and bypass hoses connected? None missingor incorrectly routed?A.  I believe all areBUT due to 3 leaking heater control valves, I have plugs inside on both heatercontrol hoses with hoses connected to valve to retain correct look.  Problem? *is the water flowing freely through heater core? A.  It was before valves went to leaking

( side note your heater valves were not built to do 16psi sono surprise they failed)  A.  What pressure cap should we be using.  I have a 7 pound from SS that I used forawhile but was changed to 16 psi  withpressure pop off lever. *Does the car spit water out when it indicates itsoverheating? What happens if you start it and leave idling in drive? how longbefore temp rises.. How long till into 200 s?  A. Yes water spit’sout.  Will have to time with just idlingand the hood closed.

*What is the coolant level in the header tank and whatcoolant are you running?  A.  No header tank came with car when purchasedin 1979. 50/50 Anti-Freeze, tap water, with 12oz Royal Purple

*have you got a filter in the cooling system to see if youhave any sediment from the block/ system? Is the coolant clean and clear?  A. No filter in cooling system. Coolant clean and clear – no sediment.

* do you have the metal spring in the bottom radiator hoseto stop the hose compressing and blocking flow?  A.  Cannot see anycompression in bottom hose.

* have you checked the engine fan is installed the correctdirection? ( not back to front)  A.  14” 7 blade plastic fan – not currently using stock steel fan. *have you checked the electric fans are installed in thecorrect direction?  A.  Yes fans located in front of radiator and Iverified air without engine running are moving from front of car throughradiator via feel and morning cigar smoke while in the garage.

*have you made sure the fans are wired to spin in correctrotation?  A.  just by verifying air flow direction For all above stand infront of car and turn fans on.. Makesure no breeze is coming forward from the grill opening. (dont ask how i knowthat, but it solved my mystery overheating!)  A.  Air flow going through radiator.

*What are the timing and mixtures like on the car?  A.Started at 12 degrees but not sure now since guy who installed shroud made aslight changeAre the plugs indicating you are running lean?*have you checked timing? A.  will check next week whenbuddy brings his timing gun.

*Is the radiator cap seating correctly?  A.  Ibelieve so but how would you check?

*can you see any coolant leaks around the water pump orthermostat housing?  A.  None Next steps to try?   
   - Tighten fan belt from 9/16” play to about ¼”  ????
   - Remove top radiator hose water flow restrictor   

   - Burp the engine again to ensure no air by removing the manifold to heater control valve hose while running into a container.
   - Remove and test thermostat but 2 different thermostat 180 and 160 produced no difference but should eliminate and verify 160 is opening.  I think so since no water movement in radiator until thermostat opens then can see it passing.
   - Check combustion gases in radiator with Napa test kit – new test fluid being picked up today.  4 year old stuff is green not blue.
   - Air flow from hood scoop battling new shroud ???? – cardboard up the scoop and test run
   - Take the fan shroud off.
   - Take the fan off – 14” 6 blade and just use electric fans
   - Install the original 4 blade fan
   - Create some card board blocking plates for the horn openings
   - Or put the car cover on it and go fishing.
 Thank you again for all your help and based on answers to yourquestions – keep the ideas coming in.  Iwill do my best to verify, change or test – except at this point removing carband intake to verify head gasket in correct position – maybe later. Joel Martin

 

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