From zoboherald at aol.com Wed Dec 5 08:50:43 2007 From: zoboherald at aol.com (zoboherald at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:50:43 -0500 Subject: [Spits] >>NASS genuine 1970s Minilite Sport wheels In-Reply-To: <8CA05076C8F567C-308-1D17@mblk-d23.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA05076C8F567C-308-1D17@mblk-d23.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CA056DBA6A927C-F18-3AB4@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> At this time, the wheels are tentatively spoken for. Thanks to all! --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database at its new URL: ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 From rfeibusch1 at earthlink.net Wed Dec 12 11:13:49 2007 From: rfeibusch1 at earthlink.net (rfeibusch1 at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:13:49 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Spits] Triumphs Digest, Vol 1, Issue 402 Message-ID: <1897417.1197483229313.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Dear Listers, Just got back from a screening of the soon-to-be-realeased Chipmonk film at Fox. The lead character, Dave, is a somewhat slacker misic writer who lives in a cute little Hollywood bungalow complex, likes the girl next door and drives ............. a tired, but cheerful red TR4 with a primered door ........... kudos ti the studio for not making any British car negative subplots or comments. Worked for me - film was cute and not as bad as I had imagined. Best, Rick Feibusch British Car Network Venice Beach. CA From standardtriumph at btinternet.com Wed Dec 12 12:10:23 2007 From: standardtriumph at btinternet.com (John Macartney) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:10:23 -0000 Subject: [Spits] A living testament :) Message-ID: <044c01c83cf2$a5e37a80$0201a8c0@Bevan> As it grew dark tonight, I found myself travelling home through a quiet village close to Birmingham in the UK. Waiting at the somewhat long red light, I noticed the building alongside was a fine example of old English house-building with an open timber frame and ancient bricks as an infill to the whole. I noted with interest that along the eaves of the roof, the owners had mounted a number of small imitation Christmas trees in wall brackets that were angled outwards at about 45 deg. Moreover, each tree was adorned with very small white lights that oddly looked a little dim. The traffic lights went from red to green and back to red as the queue of cars moved slowly forwards and as I halted for the second time, I was directly outside the imposing oak front door. Peering up at the house to double-check if the Christmas Tree lights really were as dim as they appeared, my attention was drawn to a circular blue plaque above the door on which was written in small white letters: "Birthplace of Joseph Lucas. Automotive and Marine Lighting Engineer" Honest! Jonmac Originator of The Triumph Trans-America Charity Drive 2009 www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk An event for full TRIUMPH Enthusiast participation From standardtriumph at btinternet.com Wed Dec 12 14:54:55 2007 From: standardtriumph at btinternet.com (John Macartney) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:54:55 -0000 Subject: [Spits] TRIUMPH TRANS-AMERICAN Charity Drive 2009 EXCITING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <048701c83d09$a26c36a0$0201a8c0@Bevan> Hey, Everyone Have we got something to talk about! The Macartney Charitable Trust will soon be assuming ownership of a most generously donated and professionally restored Triumph Spitfire. There'll be lots more on that in due course. To learn a bit more, go to the website, click on the "Work's Cars" tab and bring yourself up to date. For those who haven't seen TTACD 2009 yet, go have a look-see too! Sign up to be kept up-to-date about developments almost as they occur - and the 'Something to make you smile' page might do just that. Cheers, Jonmac Originator of The Triumph Trans-America Charity Drive 2009 www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk An event for full TRIUMPH Enthusiast participation From StagByTriumph at tscusa.org Thu Dec 13 15:30:12 2007 From: StagByTriumph at tscusa.org (Glenn A. Merrell) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:30:12 -0700 Subject: [Spits] [6pack] A living testament :) In-Reply-To: <7516319594FEBC47B1205CE87EEE54071AF3564442@G3W0076.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <044c01c83cf2$a5e37a80$0201a8c0@Bevan> <7516319594FEBC47B1205CE87EEE54071AF1C58A3A@G3W0076.americas.hpqcorp.net> <000b01c83dbc$20ff08f0$6401a8c0@willec9tf0npwk> <7516319594FEBC47B1205CE87EEE54071AF3564442@G3W0076.americas.hpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <4761B274.2030207@tscusa.org> Foster, Stan wrote: >> Chilling to "ice cold" retards the release of aromas, and hides the taste. >> Now why would you do that? >> > > Ed, you would do that if your beer was made with fermented cereals like rice > and cornflakes and where the list of preservatives is longer than the list of > the required ingredients for beer (water, malted barley or malted wheat, hops > and yeast). eg most of the popular American beers from Miller, Bud, Coors etc) > have to be chilled to make them palatable. > > > > Luckily today there is excellent beer available in the US from many > microbreweries but Americans have been pre-programmed to chill the heck out of > beer and by comparison English beer seems warm although I have observed that > over the years there is a lot more chilled lager consumed in the UK than I > remember from my misspent youth. > > As you rightly point out, English beer, particularly the bitters, pale ales > and IPA's are typically consumed at around 55 degrees F with the stronger > beers like barley wines usually at room temp. > > Yum. > > Stan (Former Englishman and part time beer snob) > "I brew, therefore ... I am" "Worts this all about??" Are you guys ever off base on this. Chilling beer is for one primary reason - preservation. When beer gets warm it increases oxidation which affects flavor and may allow it to spoil quickly, specially when exposed to oxygen. Most chilled beers have an shelf life of 90 days which is what the producer believes is the best time to consume and retain the full (and very marginal range) flavors. Such beers are typically known as Bohemian (or Plzner) beers fermented with lagering yeasts so they can ferment cold, extending the quality and life of flavors in the ingredients. These beers are seldom "aged" more than a few months before being consumed. Lager beers use lagering yeast (bottom zymosis) which prefer to do their work in cooler areas over a longer period of time and will in fact stay alive to almost freezing, while ale yeasts (top zymosis) prefer a bit warmer temperature to work properly and will die off in very cold or hot temperatures, producing very bad flavors in the beer. -- Glenn A. Merrell Hobby Zymergist & Brewer of quality Ales Chairman, Triumph Stag Club USA (2007-2009) The best trophies are miles on the odometer, stone chips in the paint, dead bugs on the windshield! From TR250Driver at aol.com Sat Dec 15 10:58:07 2007 From: TR250Driver at aol.com (TR250Driver at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:58:07 EST Subject: [Spits] GT6+ Running Hot Part 2 Message-ID: Guys, I have some time off during the holidays so it is time to trouble shoot. 70 GT6 +, runs too hot for me. Just a bit over half on the NOS SMITHS temp gauge. Does not boil over under any conditions so far but runs warn even during nite riding at 60 degrees. Better when air is filling the Radiator at speed. Problem close in at idle and traffic, it then seems that the motor is breaking up a bit and misfiring slightly. I took the Radiator out and took it to a shop. Tested fine when they blew a bunch of water backwards thru the bottom to the top. They were all chuckling a bit and saying this is a Triumph Radiator, HUH? They said they didn't mind taking my money but it was sort of useless. Now what? The GT6 + is New Construction. I am thinking the "breaking up" is the Crane electronic ignition overheating. She is tuned fairly well and does not respond to any different timing settings as far as cooling down. I believe I tried a different thermostat but CRS is present there. I would really like to fit a MO-JO aluminum radiator but Charles Runyan is not supplying those for the Little Triumph's yet. Anyone from TRF out there on the List? We need some parts too but can't get any respect. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated, Beverly refuses to ride in the GT6+ for her seat is directly behind the exhaust header and really on fire. I have to hose her down after a sort trip. Darrell **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) From s1500 at comcast.net Sat Dec 15 12:24:42 2007 From: s1500 at comcast.net (S1500) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 13:24:42 -0600 Subject: [Spits] pics of oil cooler on a '79-'80 Spit? Message-ID: <476429FA.5030408@comcast.net> I'd love to see some photos of it in action. With the radiator where it is, there seems to be little room to place it in front. From jimmuller at rcn.com Sat Dec 15 19:29:07 2007 From: jimmuller at rcn.com (Jim Muller) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:29:07 -0500 Subject: [Spits] [TR] GT6+ Running Hot Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <47644723.23961.7D2E91@localhost> Randall wrote a nice answer to this but I'll chime in anyway only because I also drive a GT6+. On 15 Dec 2007 at 12:58, TR250Driver at aol.com wrote: > 70 GT6 +, runs too hot for me. Just a bit over half on the > NOS SMITHS temp gauge. Does not boil over under any conditions Just over half isn't what I'd consider hot. The fact that it reads like that all the time, even with a different thermostat and in different kinds of weather, says that it is working just fine. (I think mine runs right at the halfway point, but slightly above wouldn't scare me unless it kept climbing. I have seen it run hotter. Of course, right now it isn't running at all, given the amount of snow and salt all over the place here.) > Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated, Beverly > refuses to ride in the GT6+ for her seat is directly behind > the exhaust header and really on fire. I have to hose her > down after a sort trip. Ah, that's a different problem. I hold different beliefs from most supposed experts about keeping a car cool, even some real experts here. The most important thing you can do to keep the interior of the car cool is improve air circulation around the engine and gearbox. For example, many people, which includes the factory, installed insulation under the tranny cover. The trouble is, it reduces the airflow through there. When the insulation eventually becomes saturated with oil, as it inevitably will, the insulation doesn't insulate very well, but the airflow doesn't get any better. So more heat is transferred to the interior, and an additional downside is that the gearbox runs correspondingly hotter. When I bought my GT6+ it had no shrouds around the engine or radiator. (The Spitfire did, but IIRC they are no longer in place.) Sure the GT6 is warm inside but not so much as to make Sharon complain. We open the windows (old-style "acoustic" air conditioning). We've driven 3-hr trips in 95degF weather. I have no proof of this claim but I suspect if I put in shrouds around the engine the entire compartment would get hotter and the firewall and tranny cover would feel much warmer inside the car. For what it's worth, both my cars have the plastic tranny cover from TRF, indifferently installed (because they fit indifferently well until I work at them some), with no additional insulation. -- Jim Muller jimmuller at rcn.com '80 Spitfire, '70 GT6+ From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Dec 15 20:10:52 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:10:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Spits] GT6+ Running Hot Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <153544.27052.qm@web614.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I suspect your car is running about as hot as it did new from the factory. If the gauge does not get too high and it does not boil over, I think it's not really overheating. If too much heat is coming from the headers, maybe they (or the firewall behind them) should be insulated. If you installed some super perfect radiator, then there would be even more heat coming off of it, and the passenger compartment would be as hot as before... Doug Braun '72 Spit From sinclair at degenkolb.com Sun Dec 16 17:10:56 2007 From: sinclair at degenkolb.com (Mark Sinclair) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:10:56 -0500 Subject: [Spits] Spitfire MKII Valuation Message-ID: Hello all - some nice lady in a Lexus side swiped me and made a pretty good mess of most of my drivers side. Her fault fortunately. I expect Geico will write it off rather than try and deal with the repair, which is OK with me provided the valuation isn't too low. My Spit is pretty tatty, but mostly original, and I'd like to keep it. In anticipation of needing to provide evidence to support the "right" number I'm casting around for "accurate" valuations of early Spitfires (MK1,2,3). Will check the usual sources, vtr, ebay etc., but if you come across a good example, or have any other suggestions, please drop me a line. Cheers Mark Sinclair 65 MK2 Spit. Dented but not dead. From ZoboHerald at aol.com Sun Dec 16 19:57:00 2007 From: ZoboHerald at aol.com (ZoboHerald at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:57:00 EST Subject: [Spits] Spitfire MKII Valuation Message-ID: In a message dated 12/16/2007 7:11:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sinclair at degenkolb.com writes: Hello all - some nice lady in a Lexus side swiped me and made a pretty good mess of most of my drivers side. Her fault fortunately. I expect Geico will write it off rather than try and deal with the repair, which is OK with me provided the valuation isn't too low. My Spit is pretty tatty, but mostly original, and I'd like to keep it. ==AM== That's a shame, Mark. But make the lizard pay! :-) Seriously, I hope that the car isn't so bent that it cannot be repaired satisfactorily. It's always a shame to lose another one. But if this was basically a solid and presentable car and can be fixed, I hope you fight for a fair settlement. Good luck; keep us posted! --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database at its new URL: _http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) From spitfire at freebacon.net Mon Dec 17 07:51:40 2007 From: spitfire at freebacon.net (Mike Welch) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:51:40 -0700 Subject: [Spits] Spitfire MKII Valuation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When my '69 MkIII was hit a few years ago, the insurance company (State Farm) used values from EBay for the past 12 months exclusively. They started off with an offer extremely low, under $200 from what I recall. After negotiations, it ended up being about $2k. What convinced them was the parts that I had in my garage, maintenance records, etc. That showed them that it wasn't just an 'old car', but was a rolling rebuild. Mike Welch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sinclair" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 5:10 PM Subject: [Spits] Spitfire MKII Valuation > Hello all - some nice lady in a Lexus side swiped me and made a pretty > good mess of most of my drivers side. Her fault fortunately. I expect > Geico will write it off rather than try and deal with the repair, which > is OK with me provided the valuation isn't too low. My Spit is pretty > tatty, but mostly original, and I'd like to keep it. > > In anticipation of needing to provide evidence to support the "right" > number I'm casting around for "accurate" valuations of early Spitfires > (MK1,2,3). Will check the usual sources, vtr, ebay etc., but if you > come across a good example, or have any other suggestions, please drop > me a line. > > Cheers > Mark Sinclair > 65 MK2 Spit. Dented but not dead. > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Spitfires at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/spitfires > > http://www.team.net/archive From TR250Driver at aol.com Mon Dec 17 08:04:00 2007 From: TR250Driver at aol.com (TR250Driver at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:04:00 EST Subject: [Spits] GT6+ Running Hot Part 2 Message-ID: In a message dated 12/15/2007 10:11:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, doug at dougbraun.com writes: I suspect your car is running about as hot as it did new from the factory. If the gauge does not get too high and it does not boil over, I think it's not really overheating. Thanks for all the responses and advise guys. Somehow I knew that the GT6+ was going to be hot but it fooled me by not cooling down when the outside temps were cooler. The worst thing is this Crane break up problem. I still think it may be related to heat effecting the amplifier but I will check into the dizzy and report back findings. Cheers, Darrell BTW The Radiator still is suspect to me because it weighs a ton. I still want an aluminum one. I have seen a few GT6 race cars with them. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) From JHMDDS at aol.com Tue Dec 18 14:59:55 2007 From: JHMDDS at aol.com (JHMDDS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:59:55 EST Subject: [Spits] Spitfire Instrument Cluster Message-ID: Could someone please tell me the right to left order and function of the instrument knobs and switches on the dash and below the dash in a Spitfire Mk II? Thanks, James '66 Spitfire **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net Tue Dec 18 15:28:08 2007 From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:28:08 +0000 Subject: [Spits] Spitfire Instrument Cluster Message-ID: <121820072228.28339.476849780002F7A200006EB32206424613CC02010D0D0709969B0700@comcast.net> In mine, the gauges are, left to right, temp, tach, speedo and fuel. That is reversed from the drawing in the Clymer Owners Handbook I have, so I'm not sure which is correct. The switches are lights (below and slightly right of temp guage) and then, bottom row left to right, wipers, washer pump (manual pump handle), blower, heater control and choke. Same order as in the Clymer book. Hope that helps. Tom FitzGibbon '67 Mk II -------------- Original message -------------- From: JHMDDS at aol.com > Could someone please tell me the right to left order and function of the > instrument knobs and switches on the dash and below the dash in a Spitfire Mk > II? [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Spitfire Dash-1 gauges.JPG] From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Dec 18 20:03:45 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:03:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Spits] End-of-season off-topic: auto-related humor Message-ID: <124771.83570.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is something funny: the lyrics of the first verse of the song "My Hooptie" by Sir Mix-a-Lot. Also check urbandictionary.com for some amusing (G-rated) definitions of "hooptie". My hooptie rollin', tailpipe draggin' Heat don't work an' my girl keeps naggin' Six-nine Buick, deuce keeps rollin' One hubcap 'cause three got stolen Bumper shook loose, chrome keeps scrapin' Mis-matched tires, and my white walls flakin' Hit mickey-d's, Maharaji starts to bug He ate a quarter-pounder, threw the pickles on my rug Runnin', movin' tabs expired Girlies tryin' to dis 'n say my car looks tired Hit my brakes, out slid skittles Tinted back window with a bubble in the middle Who's car is it? Posse won't say We all play it off when you look our way Rollin' four deep, tires smoke up the block Gotta roll this bucket, 'cause my Benz is in the shop From standardtriumph at btinternet.com Wed Dec 19 16:55:24 2007 From: standardtriumph at btinternet.com (John Macartney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:55:24 -0000 Subject: [Spits] More updates on the Triumph Trans-AmeriCa Charity Drive website Message-ID: <003f01c8429a$a03edbd0$0201a8c0@Bevan> The website has undergone further updates as of 19 Dec 2007 with some new pix and revamped pages. In case you missed our last posting, the Trust has been given - yes, given - a concours (modified) 1978 Spitfire to UK spec. This will be used as an initial fundraiser and eventually disposed of as a raffle prize. You can see initial pix of the car by clicking on the website link below. Jonmac Originator of The Triumph Trans-America Charity Drive 2009 www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk An event for full TRIUMPH Enthusiast participation From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net Fri Dec 21 19:14:45 2007 From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:14:45 -0500 Subject: [Spits] winter time Message-ID: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> Easy way to check for radiator corrosion protection, just as important as checking the antifreeze, if the coolant is allowed to become "acidic" the engine and radiator will also become corroded with rust. Using a volt-ohm meter (VOM) set it to a DC voltage range that measure in "tenths" of a volt, remove the cap and place the negative VOM lead into coolant, being very careful not to touch any other part of the radiator. Place the Positive lead of the VOM against a bare metal part of the radiator (or a good ground of the engine), a reading of 0.2 volts or less, coolant is in good shape, a reading of 0.5 volts it is borderline, 0.7 volts replace your coolant immediatly. This comes from my "Model A" workshop manual and also says it works in modern cars as well, which is really more important because of aluminum heads or dissimilar metals in modern cars. From craigsbaggy at bigpond.com Sat Dec 22 00:49:34 2007 From: craigsbaggy at bigpond.com (Pace Davis Home for Wayward Girls and Boys) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:49:34 +1000 Subject: [Spits] Mk3 door locks Message-ID: <000001c8446f$32add1d0$0400000a@CD28052004> Hi folks. Sue's Spitty is [finally] back from it's 12 month rebuild. As usual there is a fair bit of work for me to do to get it right. My mechanic had to reassemble the door trim/internals. Thank god the panel beater didn't. Unfortunately, they haven't connected the external locks. I just hope the PB hasn't lost an important irreplaceable part. The doors will lock from inside but not with the key. Has anyone got a photo or parts book diagram which show the connections. As I remember from last time they were fiddly little buggers to fit. Thanks and Merry Xmass Craig From standardtriumph at btinternet.com Sat Dec 22 11:55:31 2007 From: standardtriumph at btinternet.com (John Macartney) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:55:31 -0000 Subject: [Spits] Greetings All Message-ID: <00f901c844cc$3a9ddae0$0201a8c0@Bevan> I'd just like to take this opportunity in wishing all members of these lists, wherever they may live, a very Happy Christmas and New Year. In lurk mode at the moment and unsure whether the lists have 'wobbled' again as they're quiet of late. Cheers all, Jonmac Originator of The Triumph Trans-America Charity Drive 2009 www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk An event for full TRIUMPH Enthusiast participation From jbaustian at cox.net Sat Dec 22 14:26:53 2007 From: jbaustian at cox.net (Jim Baustian) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:26:53 -0600 Subject: [Spits] Mk3 Door Locks Message-ID: If you have the complete key operated lock assembly you should have all that you need to get the lock to work from the outside. I have not been able to find a diagram with enough detail to describe what the "complete" assembly looks like. I can provide a digital photo as well as comments that should allow you to get the outside lock to function if you want to received them direct to you. Jim Baustian jbaustian at cox.net From pnhnt at insight.rr.com Mon Dec 24 13:06:03 2007 From: pnhnt at insight.rr.com (The Family Jefferson) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:06:03 -0500 Subject: [Spits] Triumph in the movies. Message-ID: <000301c84668$85358740$6501a8c0@howard2wvz0stb> As a pre-Christmas treat we took my son to see "Alvin and the Chipmunks". And to my amazement, there is a Triumph TR4 (maybe a TR250). Happy Holidays everyone. R/ Howard 75 Spitfire 1500 [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Blank Bkgrd.gif] From jimmuller at rcn.com Mon Dec 24 15:34:10 2007 From: jimmuller at rcn.com (Jim Muller) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:34:10 -0500 Subject: [Spits] Season's greeting to you all Message-ID: <476FED92.21376.97B257C@localhost> May your plugs glow brightly for the holidays. A little peace for all wouldn't be so bad either. Jim Muller jimmuller at rcn.com From ljvaughan at pldi.net Thu Dec 27 17:13:33 2007 From: ljvaughan at pldi.net (Larry Vaughan) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:13:33 -0600 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar Message-ID: <47743FAD.1020009@pldi.net> Someone on ebay is selling 1" front swaybars. The first went for $127. Starting price $99. One of these on a stock swingspring Spitfire would cause what? Understeer? Larry From ptegler at cablespeed.com Thu Dec 27 17:32:31 2007 From: ptegler at cablespeed.com (ptegler at cablespeed.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:32:31 -0500 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar References: <47743FAD.1020009@pldi.net> Message-ID: <00c001c848e9$221fd330$0201a8c0@dragonlair> If I'm reading your email correctly...that first one went to me! :-) The guy is just down the road from me. It's destined for my FIS6. Paul G..... care to comment on 1" sway bars? As to your question.... why would you think a heavier than stock swaybar would cause under steer? If anything...perhaps over steer. But it's all in the balance and overall setup of your suspension. I currently run the stock 7/8" bar. I have Carrera adjustable perch aluminum shocks up front with 300 lbs springs. With the weight transfer of the position of my 6 cyl moved back 6", I'm already amazingly flat in the turns. But a heavier bar will allow me to soften my front springs for a smoother ride while maintaining my 'flat turns'. I've driven Paul G's Spit with the 1" bar (and he my FIS6) The near total lack of 'lean' in a turn is amazing, and very controllable. Paul Tegler ptegler at cablespeed.com www.teglerizer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Vaughan" To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar > Someone on ebay is selling 1" front swaybars. The first went for $127. > Starting price $99. One of these on a stock swingspring Spitfire would > cause what? Understeer? > > Larry From spitlist at cox.net Thu Dec 27 17:42:21 2007 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:42:21 -0700 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar In-Reply-To: <47743FAD.1020009@pldi.net> References: <47743FAD.1020009@pldi.net> Message-ID: <001f01c848ea$81e31830$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Increasing front stiffness (springs, shocks or sway bar) will increase the potential for understeer. Compensating for too much understeer is accomplished by adding stiffness to the rear. Joe -----Original Message----- From: spitfires-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:spitfires-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Larry Vaughan Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 5:14 PM To: spitfires at autox.team.net Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar Someone on ebay is selling 1" front swaybars. The first went for $127. Starting price $99. One of these on a stock swingspring Spitfire would cause what? Understeer? Larry Spitfires at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/spitfires http://www.team.net/archive From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 27 18:50:07 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (foxtrapper at aceweb.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:50:07 -0800 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar Message-ID: <6643dc3e0a7a436e8d99c06d34278506.foxtrapper@aceweb.com> Increasing front roll stiffness primarily creates two different events. The end result is the combined effect of these two events. The first is to reduce body roll. This is a good thing. When the body rolls over, this rolls the wheels over, which is never good for handling as the sidewalls of a tire aren't noted for doing good things on the pavement. So reducing body roll is good as it keeps the tires more upright, and this promotes better handling, typically reducing understeer. The second thing is to increase the load on the front tires. This is not a good thing. This increased of loading more rapidly overloads the tires, causing them to slide, or understeer. This is not a good thing. In the case of the Spitfire, particularly with the swing spring, the net effect of a stiffer front rollbar is better handling. The car stays flatter, maximizing the first point above. As there is virtually no roll resistance in the rear, you are not particularly increasing it in the front, the front is already taking it. So you net out with better handling. That's why this setup is virtually universal on all racing Spitfires, it works. If you do not reinforce the frame tabs and the a-arms where the swaybar mounts, you will rapidly find cracking and then complete failure at all four points. ------- Original Message ------- >From : Larry Vaughan[mailto:ljvaughan at pldi.net] Sent : 12/27/2007 4:13:33 PM To : spitfires at autox.team.net Cc : Subject : RE: [Spits] Front swaybar Someone on ebay is selling 1" front swaybars. The first went for $127. Starting price $99. One of these on a stock swingspring Spitfire would cause what? Understeer? Larry Spitfires at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/spitfires http://www.team.net/archive From jimmuller at rcn.com Thu Dec 27 20:19:47 2007 From: jimmuller at rcn.com (Jim Muller) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:19:47 -0500 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar In-Reply-To: <6643dc3e0a7a436e8d99c06d34278506.foxtrapper@aceweb.com> Message-ID: <47742503.15246.D51C33B@localhost> On 27 Dec 2007 at 17:50, foxtrapper at aceweb.com wrote: > The second thing is to increase the load on the front tires. This is not quite correct. A larger front swaybar increases the load on the outside front and inside rear tires, and decreases the tires on the opposite diagonal. Whether this is a good thing depends on a bunch of other factors. With a front engine way up in the air you usually already have too much weight on the outside front tire, so the result is to reduce front traction. Similar arguments apply at the rear, where the center of mass is much lower. The roll center is also different front to rear, usually much higher at the rear, especially with a swing axle. The result is that you start with even more weight already transferred to the OF/IR diagonal. Yes, having the car sit flatter in a corner is good, but the weight shift onto the already overburdened diagonal makes understeer worse. -- Jim Muller jimmuller at rcn.com '80 Spitfire, '70 GT6+ From spitlist at cox.net Thu Dec 27 20:37:42 2007 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:37:42 -0700 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar In-Reply-To: <6643dc3e0a7a436e8d99c06d34278506.foxtrapper@aceweb.com> References: <6643dc3e0a7a436e8d99c06d34278506.foxtrapper@aceweb.com> Message-ID: <002c01c84903$00b01b50$0202a8c0@newcomputer> If you are speaking of the later (swing-spring) models, that might be pretty much accurate. However, earlier fixed spring models don't suffer from the effects of that pitiful rear suspension (excessive body roll), so the normal cause and effect issues are in effect. As a rule: 1. Increasing front stiffness increases tendencies toward understeer. 2. Decreasing front stiffness increases tendencies toward oversteer. Obviously, you can't state the above without adding: 1. Increasing rear stiffness increases tendencies toward oversteer 2. Decreasing rear stiffness increases tendencies toward understeer. Of course, these all have to be taken with both ends into consideration. The later Spits can take a lot more front swaybar without displaying adverse understeer problems because the rear is so loose to begin with. As an example of what I am talking about, when I first started monkeying with the original suspension on tiny Tim, I installed a large additional main leaf to the already heavy GT6+ rear spring stack and knew that I had to stiffen the front. I had some custom 350 pound coils made for me and installed a 1 inch front bar. The first autocross I entered in showed me that the front end was much too stiff because it was all I could do to keep the car from plowing in turns. I went to the 7/8" bar until I installed the dual A-Frame suspension and Koni Coil-over shocks to the rear and was able to put the 1 inch bar back on. After I converted the car to street use, I went back to the 7/8" bar for comfort reasons. Joe -----Original Message----- Increasing front roll stiffness primarily creates two different events. The end result is the combined effect of these two events. The first is to reduce body roll. This is a good thing. When the body rolls over, this rolls the wheels over, which is never good for handling as the sidewalls of a tire aren't noted for doing good things on the pavement. So reducing body roll is good as it keeps the tires more upright, and this promotes better handling, typically reducing understeer. The second thing is to increase the load on the front tires. This is not a good thing. This increased of loading more rapidly overloads the tires, causing them to slide, or understeer. This is not a good thing. In the case of the Spitfire, particularly with the swing spring, the net effect of a stiffer front rollbar is better handling. The car stays flatter, maximizing the first point above. As there is virtually no roll resistance in the rear, you are not particularly increasing it in the front, the front is already taking it. So you net out with better handling. That's why this setup is virtually universal on all racing Spitfires, it works. From ZoboHerald at aol.com Thu Dec 27 20:54:03 2007 From: ZoboHerald at aol.com (ZoboHerald at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:54:03 EST Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar Message-ID: In a message dated 12/27/2007 7:42:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, spitlist at cox.net writes: Increasing front stiffness (springs, shocks or sway bar) will increase the potential for understeer. Compensating for too much understeer is accomplished by adding stiffness to the rear. ==AM== I'm with you, Joe. And I can "prove" it from personal experience. Back in the 1970s when I was autocrossing my essentially stock GT6+, I often ran against another 6+. It was also essentially stock, except that the owner had added the thicker front sway bar from a later swing-spring Spitfire. We swapped cars occasionally, and there was no question in my mind that his car was much more prone to plowing like a Ferguson tractor. ;-) "Racing" Spitfires are a whole 'nuther story, since suspension modifications are not limited to just a thicker front sway bar. --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database at its new URL: _http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) From tedtsimx at bright.net Fri Dec 28 06:20:50 2007 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:20:50 -0500 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar In-Reply-To: <47743FAD.1020009@pldi.net> References: <47743FAD.1020009@pldi.net> Message-ID: <4774F832.5010106@bright.net> Larry Vaughan wrote: > Someone on ebay is selling 1" front swaybars. The first went for $127. > Starting price $99. One of these on a stock swingspring Spitfire would > cause what? Understeer? > > Larry > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Spitfires at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/spitfires > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > Larry, if yo go to our website home page, there is a push button on the left side called Sway bar rate/handling chart. This lists sway bar rate increases by diameter adn also gives a series of "if this, then that" scenarios. Ted -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From carcentric at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 11:47:53 2007 From: carcentric at yahoo.com (M D Nugent) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:47:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Spits] Softer than stock front springs Message-ID: <999984.24365.qm@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'll be looking for a non-standard-spec pair of coils in the next few months, and need ideas on who might have in stock what I need (I've heard some formula cars use Spitfire-size springs). Also, please correct me if I'm wrong: - a 2" reduction of free length will result in a 2" drop in ground clearance, and - reduction of front weight by 40% would require a spring with 40% lower rate for "same as stock" performance. M D "Doc" Nugent - www.carcentric.com Seattle area ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Fri Dec 28 16:07:54 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (foxtrapper at aceweb.com) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:07:54 -0800 Subject: [Spits] Softer than stock front springs Message-ID: <5bd2c958f3ce4ef1b8f27273ee218227.foxtrapper@aceweb.com> No, a 2" reduction in coil length will not inherently result in a 2" drop in the cars height. That only works out so simply in a mcpherson strut where the spring is straight up and down at the end of the suspension motion. On a Spitfire, the spring is mounted a bit inboard on the arm, and at an angle. You need to take both factors into account to really get an accurate estimate on drop. Off hand, I'd expect a 2" coil reduction to produce more like a 3" car drop on a Spitfire. Yes, reducing spring rate by the same percentage as vehicle weight reduction is a reasonably accurate starting point. There's a bit more to it, particularly the rebound frequency, but you probably aren't interested in that aspect. As for suppliers, any of the shops specializing in smaller coils can provide them for you. Even places like Jegs will have them. All you need is the diameter, which I can't remember at the moment. From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Fri Dec 28 16:11:57 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (foxtrapper at aceweb.com) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:11:57 -0800 Subject: [Spits] Front swaybar Message-ID: <7bc57dc9e84a4ff5a971bd09d892f613.foxtrapper@aceweb.com> >If you are speaking of the later (swing-spring) models, that might be pretty >much accurate. That is the one I was thinking of when I wrote that it works real well, as evidenced by its use on virtually every racing model on the track, yes. The first paragraphs though apply to any vehicle. Increasing front roll stiffness does two things, decreases body roll (good), increases front tire side loading (bad). The net result is the balance of the two. On virtually every car the bad outweighs the good, giving the vastly oversimplified chart you mention. That chart is a good tool. Even better is to understand the engineering behind it. From jimmuller at rcn.com Fri Dec 28 16:37:24 2007 From: jimmuller at rcn.com (Jim Muller) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 18:37:24 -0500 Subject: [Spits] Softer than stock front springs In-Reply-To: <999984.24365.qm@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47754264.10870.11AC8680@localhost> On 28 Dec 2007 at 10:47, M D Nugent wrote: > - a 2" reduction of free length will result in a 2" drop in ground > clearance, and... For any given weight, the loading within the spring is the same everywhere. Regardless of the free length (and assuming a linear spring), if the spring compresses an amount X and original length Y, that compression will be linear within the spring. If it compresses a fractional component Z = X/Y, then the new length will be shorter by Z times 2in, not shorter by 2in. To put it an other way, you must distinguish between the compression modulus of the coil as a material and the effective compression constant of the actual spring as a unit. The effective spring constant is the compression modulus (dimensionless w.r.t. length) times the spring length. If you shorten the spring its effective rate goes up so a given load compresses it less that you'd expect. > - reduction of front weight by 40% would require a spring with 40% > lower rate for "same as stock" performance. Wow! How does one reduce the front weight by 40%? Install a 2- cylinder engine?? Cut the Spitfire engine in half, factor in the lightened frame, suspension, and brakes, move the battery to the trunk, remove the alternator, lights, horn... -- Jim Muller jimmuller at rcn.com '80 Spitfire, '70 GT6+ From mark at bradakis.com Fri Dec 28 19:29:40 2007 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J. Bradakis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:29:40 -0700 Subject: [Spits] Softer than stock front springs In-Reply-To: <999984.24365.qm@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <999984.24365.qm@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4775B114.7060607@bradakis.com> The free length of the springs is irrelevant. Fitted load, fitted length and such are more important. With a coil over suspension like the Spit's front that isn't perfectly perpendicular to the road there is geometry involved in figuring out what sort of change to the spring is needed to get the desired change in ride height. I sort of remember working this out a decade or so ago when I was actively developing the Killer Spit. But given that you are talking about a 40 percent reduction in front end weight, I'm assuming that you are pulling out the motor and transmission and will be pushing the Spitfire wherever you go, so ride height and handling is not really a factor. mjb. From StagByTriumph at tscusa.org Fri Dec 28 20:09:20 2007 From: StagByTriumph at tscusa.org (Glenn A. Merrell) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:09:20 -0700 Subject: [Spits] [6pack] Emissions in the future-is retrofitting possible? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4775BA60.70505@tscusa.org> JODY A MORRISON wrote: > Hello to all... > There is a movement afoot here in Colorado instigated by the Colorado > Automobile Dealers (read, new car dealers) to get all pre-1990 cars off the > roads here in Colorado. In a telling remark in the article, the pre-1990 cars > are referred to as 'jalopies'. Their spokesman states that "5 percent of the > vehicles out there - made in 1990 and before - are responsible for more than > half, and perhaps three-quarters of the emissions." Of course this makes no > mention of the favorite Colorado Commuter Vehicles ( aka, high dealer-profit > vehicles)....diesel pickups, Escalades, Hummers, hemi-powered anything, etc. > etc. > > It appears to be a transparent effort to divert attention away from any > attempts to require new cars/trucks/SUVs to have much higher mpg ratings and > to sell more new cars. Duh..... > > You can read the article and form you own opinions at: > http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/28/saying-no-to-clunkers/ ://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/28/saying-no-to-clunkers/> > > ... > As I think about my grandsons inheriting my treasure I must wonder if they > will ever get to actually drive it. > > Happy New Year to all..... > Larry M > TR250 project in Colorado > Larry, For us Coloradans, this has got to get the attention of every car club in Colorado. I will be raising this issue at the next Colorado English Motoring Conclave meeting 23rd January 2008 and request that each member get back to their respective clubs. I do not think however that they will outlaw classic cars 25 years old or older. There is a fairly strong lobby with classics, and "Hot Rods" even recently obtained their own license "Hot Rod" plate in Colorado just like collector vehicles. Our emissions testing only applies to standard tags and post 1981. Special tags for collector vehicles only require a tail pipe 2000 RPM test. If the car can pas clean car emissions, which my Stag can with EFI, you can still get standard plates. Re improving emissions, just go an EFI setup with O2 sensor feedback and cat's. It will give you performance in Colorado right up into altitude and allow you to meet or exceed emission specs -- Glenn A. Merrell Chairman, Triumph Stag Club USA (2007-2009) The best trophies are miles on the odometer, stone chips in the paint, dead bugs on the windshield! From carcentric at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 21:26:22 2007 From: carcentric at yahoo.com (M D Nugent) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:26:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Spits] Softer than stock front springs Message-ID: <46940.30677.qm@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for the lead to JEGS, guys. Since it's still being built, I'm just guessing at the 40%, but yeah, the engine's in the rear, battery in the rear, no radiator, bumpers, or fenders, bonnet replaced with a lighter one from a MG Magnette ZA, . . . it's easier to see than to explain: > http://www.carcentric.com/Lightnin.htm Anybody know the RATE and FREE LENGTH of stock coils in the '80 Spitfire? And I got the xyz bit (related to angle of the coils), but are the x and y measured from the end of the lower A-arm (where the coil sits) or from the center of the tire's contact patch? If it's the latter, using wheel adapters will make any spring seem "softer." M D "Doc" Nugent - www.carcentric.com Seattle area ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Muller To: spitfires at autox.team.net Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:37:24 PM Subject: Re: [Spits] Softer than stock front springs . . . Wow! How does one reduce the front weight by 40%? Install a 2- cylinder engine?? Cut the Spitfire engine in half, factor in the lightened frame, suspension, and brakes, move the battery to the trunk, remove the alternator, lights, horn... -- Jim Muller jimmuller at rcn.com '80 Spitfire, '70 GT6+ _____________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From bdischer at blakedischer.com Sun Dec 30 06:06:40 2007 From: bdischer at blakedischer.com (Blake J. Discher) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 08:06:40 -0500 Subject: [Spits] [TR] [6pack] Emissions in the future-is retrofitting possible? In-Reply-To: <4775BA60.70505@tscusa.org> References: <4775BA60.70505@tscusa.org> Message-ID: <6BA2E218-1FF3-498A-8041-FF5AFB5C3B3F@blakedischer.com> Hi Jody, This sort of legislation is constantly underway in many, many States across the country. Fortunately, in almost every case, it is defeated (or a compromise is reached softening the bill's reach), sometimes at the last possible minute, as the bill moves through the legislative process. In my role as President of The Vintage Triumph Register (VTR), I am in contact with the folks at the SEMA Action Network (SEMASAN), which is an arm of SEMA (Specialty Equipment Market Association). SEMA is a trade association for manufacturers which produce parts for the motor vehicle aftermarket. A big portion of their member's customer base are the hot-rodders, street-rodders and antique/classic car enthusiasts. During 2007, their efforts helped win legislative victories in issues effecting old car enthusiasts in Arizona, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas, Virginia, West Virginia and Wyoming. Colorado is on their radar, their last success there was in 2006 in a bill concerning vehicle smog inspections for kit cars. VTR will continue to work with SEMASAN in their efforts, assisting in any way it can. I encourage everyone to join SEMASAN, it's free to join as a hobbyist. Get involved. http://www.semasan.com (Home page of their site with lots of information, a valuable resource including drop down menus for zeroing in on issues you may be concerned about by State and instructions about how to contact your legislators.) Cheers and Happy New Year, Blake J. Discher, President Vintage Triumph Register http://www.vtr.org > JODY A MORRISON wrote: >> Hello to all... >> There is a movement afoot here in Colorado instigated by the Colorado >> Automobile Dealers (read, new car dealers) to get all pre-1990 >> cars off the >> roads here in Colorado.