From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Jan  2 13:49:56 2022
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:49:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Un-warping butcher block countertop?
Message-ID: <E2429CB6-D912-468D-9ADC-26D119467BF7@groupwbench.org>

I have an Ikea desktop made with solid 1" square lengths of who knows what wood. Probably birch or beech. It's 30 x 60 and exactly an inch thick. I don't see the product on their website anymore but it looks a lot like this:

https://www.instructables.com/Butcher-block-countertop-table-IKEA-hack/

I gave it to a friend who turned it into a guest bed with 4 short legs. I (200 lbs) slept on it for a few weeks. There are 2 metal straps underneath to hold the glued joints together.

Fast forward 6 months and I have it again and am using it as a kitchen island countertop, but it has gone concave along the length, as if my weight warped it. I don't think it's a moisture imbalance issue because it's always been open to the air on both sides. I've loosened the metal straps but the wood is still warped. Is this something that will slowly un-warp as the weight of the island base pulls down on it? The base is 2 old bookcases back to back, and I've screwed the countertop to them with L brackets. Currently the lighter bookcase is slighty off the ground, being held up by the warpage. 

I'd like to eventually bind the two bookcase backs together but I don't want to split the countertop. 

thanks,
jim



From patintexas at icloud.com  Sun Jan  2 14:08:11 2022
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:08:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Un-warping butcher block countertop?
In-Reply-To: <E2429CB6-D912-468D-9ADC-26D119467BF7@groupwbench.org>
References: <E2429CB6-D912-468D-9ADC-26D119467BF7@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4E5B73F0-4B41-4D0D-B0A3-CD326570D16D@icloud.com>

I have a couple of those older Ikea countertops that I used for work surfaces in my shop office. I supported them with large angle brackets on the wall. As far as I can tell they are still flat. 

If you can do without the top in the kitchen for a while, support it upside down on the ends in the sun for a while to see if it comes back into shape. A possible alternative would be to put a support under the center of it when right side up & run a cable from one end, under the support & then to the other end. Use a turnbuckle so you can keep the cable taught. 

Last time I was in Ikea (last year) they didn?t have the solid ones, but particle board with veneer. Would work well if you don?t need to cut or route visible edges t& have plenty of support. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Jan 2, 2022, at 2:50 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

?I have an Ikea desktop made with solid 1" square lengths of who knows what wood. Probably birch or beech. It's 30 x 60 and exactly an inch thick. I don't see the product on their website anymore but it looks a lot like this:

https://www.instructables.com/Butcher-block-countertop-table-IKEA-hack/

I gave it to a friend who turned it into a guest bed with 4 short legs. I (200 lbs) slept on it for a few weeks. There are 2 metal straps underneath to hold the glued joints together.

Fast forward 6 months and I have it again and am using it as a kitchen island countertop, but it has gone concave along the length, as if my weight warped it. I don't think it's a moisture imbalance issue because it's always been open to the air on both sides. I've loosened the metal straps but the wood is still warped. Is this something that will slowly un-warp as the weight of the island base pulls down on it? The base is 2 old bookcases back to back, and I've screwed the countertop to them with L brackets. Currently the lighter bookcase is slighty off the ground, being held up by the warpage. 

I'd like to eventually bind the two bookcase backs together but I don't want to split the countertop. 

thanks,
jim


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From jniolon at att.net  Mon Jan 10 10:12:27 2022
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:12:27 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>

Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them

now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...

Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but now sure

thanks
john
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Mon Jan 10 10:22:04 2022
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:22:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <7DD61772-84D7-4344-A2A2-8635B5398A23@icloud.com>

John,

I?m not familiar with Utilitec lamps, but the LED tube lamps I have contacts on one end only & wire directly to the power. 

If you haven?t purchased your fixtures yet, check out Prime Lights in Austin TX. I installed 10 of their 3 lamp BOLT fixtures in my shop & love them. Current price is $82/fixture, $74 if you buy 12. 

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Jan 10, 2022, at 11:13 AM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

?
Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
 
now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...
 
Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but now sure
 
thanks
john
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From jniolon at att.net  Mon Jan 10 10:25:36 2022
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:25:36 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <7DD61772-84D7-4344-A2A2-8635B5398A23@icloud.com>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <7DD61772-84D7-4344-A2A2-8635B5398A23@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <1UbiNPVKS0.cQcqSCzfHtN@johns-desktop>

well Pat, that's another part of the problem...I have several older 4' fixtures 
I'm trying to rewire for this project...I'm cheap
I've opened three and all of them are wired differently 
j

----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
To: john niolon <jniolon at att.net>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: 1/10/2022 11:22:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory


John,


I?m not familiar with Utilitec lamps, but the LED tube lamps I have contacts on one end only & wire directly to the power. 


If you haven?t purchased your fixtures yet, check out Prime Lights in Austin TX. I installed 10 of their 3 lamp BOLT fixtures in my shop & love them. Current price is $82/fixture, $74 if you buy 12. 


Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity



On Jan 10, 2022, at 11:13 AM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:


? 
Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' 
led tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them

now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has 
failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...

Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site is a 
joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but now 
sure

thanks
john
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-
talk/patintexas at icloud.com
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Mon Jan 10 10:31:41 2022
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:31:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <1UbiNPVKS0.cQcqSCzfHtN@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbiNPVKS0.cQcqSCzfHtN@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <23AB95DE-D889-4E62-A6C6-3D4E5950F297@icloud.com>

PrimeLights also sells just the lamps, no ballast bypass, $21.50 (single lamp)& gut-the-fixture lamps for $12 each but only in case of 30. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Jan 10, 2022, at 11:25 AM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

?
well Pat, that's another part of the problem...I have several older 4' fixtures I'm trying to rewire for this project...I'm cheap
I've opened three and all of them are wired differently
j
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
To: john niolon <jniolon at att.net>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: 1/10/2022 11:22:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
John,

I?m not familiar with Utilitec lamps, but the LED tube lamps I have contacts on one end only & wire directly to the power. 

If you haven?t purchased your fixtures yet, check out Prime Lights in Austin TX. I installed 10 of their 3 lamp BOLT fixtures in my shop & love them. Current price is $82/fixture, $74 if you buy 12. 

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Jan 10, 2022, at 11:13 AM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

?
Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
 
now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...
 
Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but now sure
 
thanks
john
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 11:08:09 2022
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 13:08:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMaK1cxYcXR0SiHS6-mbu9-dAYBpRdnfdxWd_Y8xKNHNw@mail.gmail.com>

John,

Your tubes should be marked with the operating voltage on one end or the
other. If they're like most modern LED replacements, they'll be set to work
at 120 volts on one end. All you have to do is wire the lamp power hot and
neutral to one tombstone.

You could always open up one of your old fixtures and see what you did with
it.

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 12:13 john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

> Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led
> tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>
> now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has
> failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
> but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...
>
> Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site
> is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
> without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but
> now sure
>
> thanks
> john
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Jan 10 11:39:19 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 10:39:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <1UbiNPVKS0.cQcqSCzfHtN@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <7DD61772-84D7-4344-A2A2-8635B5398A23@icloud.com>
 <1UbiNPVKS0.cQcqSCzfHtN@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <9546d624-4869-8c8f-9eb2-3f39a27cd63d@comcast.net>

I re-wired 4 fluorescents in mom's kitchen for LEDs a few years ago. I 
bought new ballasts for them, then replaced with LED can lights this 
year. I've always wondered whether I needed the ballasts or not, all the 
'documentation' is pretty confusing. There must be some LED strips that 
need ballasts, and some that don't?


On 1/10/2022 9:25 AM, john niolon wrote:
> well Pat, that's another part of the problem...I have several older 4' 
> fixtures I'm trying to rewire for this project...I'm cheap
> I've opened three and all of them are wired differently
> j
>
>     *----- Original Message -----*
>     *From:* Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
>     *To:* john niolon <jniolon at att.net>
>     *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     *Sent:* 1/10/2022 11:22:04 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     John,
>
>     I?m not familiar with Utilitec lamps, but the LED tube lamps I
>     have contacts on one end only & wire directly to the power.
>
>     If you haven?t purchased your fixtures yet, check out Prime Lights
>     in Austin TX. I installed 10 of their 3 lamp BOLT fixtures in my
>     shop & love them. Current price is $82/fixture, $74 if you buy 12.
>
>     Pat Horne
>     We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
>     On Jan 10, 2022, at 11:13 AM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>
>     ?
>     Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4'
>     led tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>     now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my
>     memory has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
>     but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or
>     lost...
>     Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech
>     web site is a joke anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up
>     either with or
>     without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted
>     bulbs...but now sure
>     thanks
>     john
>
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From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Mon Jan 10 11:48:34 2022
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 13:48:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>

I used the Feit replacement LED tubes, it sounds like they are similar.
Here are the instructions for the Feit, maybe that will help?
https://www.feit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/T4815_850_AB_LED_10_MANUAL_051019.pdf

Best,
Ian

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:12 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

> Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led
> tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>
> now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has
> failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
> but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...
>
> Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site
> is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
> without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but
> now sure
>
> thanks
> john
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org
>
>
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Mon Jan 10 11:54:39 2022
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 13:54:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMaK1cxYcXR0SiHS6-mbu9-dAYBpRdnfdxWd_Y8xKNHNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CMaK1cxYcXR0SiHS6-mbu9-dAYBpRdnfdxWd_Y8xKNHNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4356A6A4-0221-43C1-BD62-A205208903D5@icloud.com>

Sounds like the best idea yet!

Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com

> On Jan 10, 2022, at 1:09 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> John,
> 
> Your tubes should be marked with the operating voltage on one end or the other. If they're like most modern LED replacements, they'll be set to work at 120 volts on one end. All you have to do is wire the lamp power hot and neutral to one tombstone.
> 
> You could always open up one of your old fixtures and see what you did with it.
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 12:13 john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>> Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>>  
>> now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
>> but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...
>>  
>> Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
>> without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but now sure
>>  
>> thanks
>> john
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Jan 10 13:07:20 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 12:07:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>

Since I was already 'LED curious,' I did a bit of research:

- there are some LED tubes that require a ballast* ('Type A')
- there are some LED tubes that require bypassing of the ballast ('Type B')
- there are some LED tubes that work with ballast or without/bypassing, 
with some rewiring* ('Type A+B')


If you want the least (initial) hassle, and have 'fresh' ballasts--they 
all fail, eventually--you can plug and play the 'A+B' type with a 
ballast then, when the ballast fails you can bypass it, which requires 
some rewiring (apparently, you can leave the dead ballast in place).


* Need to check compatibility between tube and ballast.


On 1/10/2022 10:48 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
> I used the Feit replacement LED tubes, it sounds like they are 
> similar.? Here are the instructions for the Feit, maybe that will help?
> https://www.feit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/T4815_850_AB_LED_10_MANUAL_051019.pdf
>
> Best,
> Ian
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:12 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>
>     Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4'
>     led tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>     now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my
>     memory has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
>     but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or
>     lost...
>     Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech
>     web site is a joke anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up
>     either with or
>     without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted
>     bulbs...but now sure
>     thanks
>     john
>
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From marka at maracing.com  Mon Jan 10 14:42:38 2022
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 16:42:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

If I were doing this, I would pretty much just throw away the existing
stuff and put up these:

https://www.amazon.com/Barrina-8500LM-Daylight-Output-Linkable/dp/B07RKZFD5Z/ref=sr_1_2_sspa

I have a shop that was built around 7 years ago and stuff like this wasn't
available at this cost, so I went with 4 tube fluorescent fixtures.
They've been "fine", but when I redid our daily driver parking garage last
year I used the Barrina lights.  Super easy, nice bright light, and pretty
cheap.  Absolutely no question that's what I'd do if I were redoing the
shop / what I will do when the time comes when the existing fluorescents
die.

YMMV.

Mark

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 3:08 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Since I was already 'LED curious,' I did a bit of research:
>
> - there are some LED tubes that require a ballast* ('Type A')
> - there are some LED tubes that require bypassing of the ballast ('Type B')
> - there are some LED tubes that work with ballast or without/bypassing,
> with some rewiring* ('Type A+B')
>
>
> If you want the least (initial) hassle, and have 'fresh' ballasts--they
> all fail, eventually--you can plug and play the 'A+B' type with a ballast
> then, when the ballast fails you can bypass it, which requires some
> rewiring (apparently, you can leave the dead ballast in place).
>
>
> * Need to check compatibility between tube and ballast.
>
>
> On 1/10/2022 10:48 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
>
> I used the Feit replacement LED tubes, it sounds like they are similar.
> Here are the instructions for the Feit, maybe that will help?
>
> https://www.feit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/T4815_850_AB_LED_10_MANUAL_051019.pdf
>
> Best,
> Ian
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:12 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>
>> Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led
>> tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>>
>> now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory has
>> failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
>> but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...
>>
>> Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web site
>> is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
>> without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but
>> now sure
>>
>> thanks
>> john
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Jan 10 17:13:29 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 16:13:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>

A quick glance doesn't show how they're mounted; anyone know? Seems like 
you'd still want a fixture to reflect light.


On 1/10/2022 1:42 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> If I were doing this, I would pretty much just throw away the existing 
> stuff and put up these:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Barrina-8500LM-Daylight-Output-Linkable/dp/B07RKZFD5Z/ref=sr_1_2_sspa
>
> I have a shop that was built around 7 years ago and stuff like this 
> wasn't available at this cost, so I went with 4 tube 
> fluorescent?fixtures.? They've been "fine", but when I redid our daily 
> driver parking garage last year I used the Barrina lights.? Super 
> easy, nice bright light, and pretty cheap. Absolutely no question 
> that's what I'd do if I were redoing the shop / what I will do when 
> the?time comes when the existing fluorescents die.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 3:08 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>     Since I was already 'LED curious,' I did a bit of research:
>
>     - there are some LED tubes that require a ballast* ('Type A')
>     - there are some LED tubes that require bypassing of the ballast
>     ('Type B')
>     - there are some LED tubes that work with ballast or
>     without/bypassing, with some rewiring* ('Type A+B')
>
>
>     If you want the least (initial) hassle, and have 'fresh'
>     ballasts--they all fail, eventually--you can plug and play the
>     'A+B' type with a ballast then, when the ballast fails you can
>     bypass it, which requires some rewiring (apparently, you can leave
>     the dead ballast in place).
>
>
>     * Need to check compatibility between tube and ballast.
>
>
>     On 1/10/2022 10:48 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
>>     I used the Feit replacement LED tubes, it sounds like they are
>>     similar.? Here are the instructions for the Feit, maybe that will
>>     help?
>>     https://www.feit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/T4815_850_AB_LED_10_MANUAL_051019.pdf
>>
>>     Best,
>>     Ian
>>
>>     On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:12 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>         Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech
>>         t81636f16-40...4' led tubes...redid all my shop lights and
>>         was pleased with them
>>         now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and
>>         my memory has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to
>>         make them work
>>         but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long
>>         gone or lost...
>>         Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and
>>         Utilitech web site is a joke??? anyone tell me how to wire
>>         these bulbs up either with or
>>         without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted
>>         bulbs...but now sure
>>         thanks
>>         john
>>
>
>
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From marka at maracing.com  Mon Jan 10 22:42:13 2022
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 00:42:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

They come with clips that you can screw to the ceiling.  There's no
fixture.  I don't know that a fixture would help in any event, since the
LEDs are all surface mounted, so they wouldn't throw light up toward the
ceiling in any event.

You all should do whatever you like, but after using both these as well as
fluorescents, there's no way I would use a fluorescent fixture.  I might
compare other LED solutions, but if they cost significantly more than
these, I wouldn't bother.  I've been nothing but impressed / happy with
them.

Mark

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 7:14 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> A quick glance doesn't show how they're mounted; anyone know? Seems like
> you'd still want a fixture to reflect light.
>
>
> On 1/10/2022 1:42 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> If I were doing this, I would pretty much just throw away the existing
> stuff and put up these:
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Barrina-8500LM-Daylight-Output-Linkable/dp/B07RKZFD5Z/ref=sr_1_2_sspa
>
> I have a shop that was built around 7 years ago and stuff like this wasn't
> available at this cost, so I went with 4 tube fluorescent fixtures.
> They've been "fine", but when I redid our daily driver parking garage last
> year I used the Barrina lights.  Super easy, nice bright light, and pretty
> cheap.  Absolutely no question that's what I'd do if I were redoing the
> shop / what I will do when the time comes when the existing fluorescents
> die.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 3:08 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Since I was already 'LED curious,' I did a bit of research:
>>
>> - there are some LED tubes that require a ballast* ('Type A')
>> - there are some LED tubes that require bypassing of the ballast ('Type
>> B')
>> - there are some LED tubes that work with ballast or without/bypassing,
>> with some rewiring* ('Type A+B')
>>
>>
>> If you want the least (initial) hassle, and have 'fresh' ballasts--they
>> all fail, eventually--you can plug and play the 'A+B' type with a ballast
>> then, when the ballast fails you can bypass it, which requires some
>> rewiring (apparently, you can leave the dead ballast in place).
>>
>>
>> * Need to check compatibility between tube and ballast.
>>
>>
>> On 1/10/2022 10:48 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
>>
>> I used the Feit replacement LED tubes, it sounds like they are similar.
>> Here are the instructions for the Feit, maybe that will help?
>>
>> https://www.feit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/T4815_850_AB_LED_10_MANUAL_051019.pdf
>>
>> Best,
>> Ian
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:12 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led
>>> tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>>>
>>> now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory
>>> has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
>>> but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or lost...
>>>
>>> Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web
>>> site is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
>>> without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted bulbs...but
>>> now sure
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> john
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Tue Jan 11 05:57:28 2022
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 04:57:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgY60rTyO6eEuVmpq-FPgP=JYDum7=6yEjfLtu-qrNG7hA@mail.gmail.com>

The primary advantage of converting an existing fluorescent fixture to LED
is that it is already there, wired, has the sockets, etc.

I converted all of the 8' fluorescent lights in my garage years ago from
magnetic ballast to electronic ballast and it was a good investment for me
at the time (used less power, lights started faster, there was less
flicker, less noise, worked better in the cold, erc.).

A couple years ago I converted all of them again to LED bulbs by just
removing the electronic ballasts and inserting 8' LED bulbs for all the
reasons previously stated. I gave all of the electronic ballasts to a
friend who was still using fluorescent 8' tubes with magnetic ballasts.
These are the bulbs I used and I am completely satisfied with them:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You do not need to remove the ballast, just wire the sockets directly to
the 110VAC lines. It could not be easier.

Here are 4' LED bulbs that I used for some other locations around the house
in the existing fluorescent sockets for the same reasons:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Again, the primary reason for using the replacement LEDs is that you only
have to change the bulbs and bypass the ballast. It is really easy to do
and the technology is the same. You are just reusing the existing mounts.

If I were starting fresh, from scratch, yes, I would just use the direct
mount LEDs that Mark is advocating. There is no need for the reflectors as
the LED lights do not emit 360 degree light, they can be purchased in 90
degree or 120 degree spread if you desire.

best,
doug


On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 9:42 PM Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

>
> Howdy,
>
> They come with clips that you can screw to the ceiling.  There's no
> fixture.  I don't know that a fixture would help in any event, since the
> LEDs are all surface mounted, so they wouldn't throw light up toward the
> ceiling in any event.
>
> You all should do whatever you like, but after using both these as well as
> fluorescents, there's no way I would use a fluorescent fixture.  I might
> compare other LED solutions, but if they cost significantly more than
> these, I wouldn't bother.  I've been nothing but impressed / happy with
> them.
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 7:14 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> A quick glance doesn't show how they're mounted; anyone know? Seems like
>> you'd still want a fixture to reflect light.
>>
>>
>> On 1/10/2022 1:42 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> If I were doing this, I would pretty much just throw away the existing
>> stuff and put up these:
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Barrina-8500LM-Daylight-Output-Linkable/dp/B07RKZFD5Z/ref=sr_1_2_sspa
>>
>> I have a shop that was built around 7 years ago and stuff like this
>> wasn't available at this cost, so I went with 4 tube fluorescent fixtures.
>> They've been "fine", but when I redid our daily driver parking garage last
>> year I used the Barrina lights.  Super easy, nice bright light, and pretty
>> cheap.  Absolutely no question that's what I'd do if I were redoing the
>> shop / what I will do when the time comes when the existing fluorescents
>> die.
>>
>> YMMV.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 3:08 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Since I was already 'LED curious,' I did a bit of research:
>>>
>>> - there are some LED tubes that require a ballast* ('Type A')
>>> - there are some LED tubes that require bypassing of the ballast ('Type
>>> B')
>>> - there are some LED tubes that work with ballast or without/bypassing,
>>> with some rewiring* ('Type A+B')
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want the least (initial) hassle, and have 'fresh' ballasts--they
>>> all fail, eventually--you can plug and play the 'A+B' type with a ballast
>>> then, when the ballast fails you can bypass it, which requires some
>>> rewiring (apparently, you can leave the dead ballast in place).
>>>
>>>
>>> * Need to check compatibility between tube and ballast.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/10/2022 10:48 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
>>>
>>> I used the Feit replacement LED tubes, it sounds like they are similar.
>>> Here are the instructions for the Feit, maybe that will help?
>>>
>>> https://www.feit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/T4815_850_AB_LED_10_MANUAL_051019.pdf
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:12 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech t81636f16-40...4' led
>>>> tubes...redid all my shop lights and was pleased with them
>>>>
>>>> now I want to add some fixtures in another part of shop and my memory
>>>> has failed... I know I had to rewire fixtures to make them work
>>>> but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is long gone or
>>>> lost...
>>>>
>>>> Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued and Utilitech web
>>>> site is a joke    anyone tell me how to wire these bulbs up either with or
>>>> without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non shunted
>>>> bulbs...but now sure
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> john
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
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> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Jan 11 09:44:09 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 08:44:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgY60rTyO6eEuVmpq-FPgP=JYDum7=6yEjfLtu-qrNG7hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1pxgY60rTyO6eEuVmpq-FPgP=JYDum7=6yEjfLtu-qrNG7hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f1d93fa-38fa-b6ef-cbde-1a78aa6fe7a6@comcast.net>

I thought I had it figured out, but what's the difference in designation 
between older tubes with 2 small prongs on one end, and the newer style 
with one fat prong? It seems they're both called 'TX,' with 'X' being 8, 
12, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

vs.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


On 1/11/2022 4:57 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> The primary advantage of converting an existing fluorescent?fixture to 
> LED is that it is already there, wired, has the sockets, etc.
>
> I converted all of the 8' fluorescent?lights in my garage years ago 
> from magnetic ballast to electronic ballast and it was a good 
> investment for me at the?time (used less power, lights started faster, 
> there was less flicker, less noise, worked better in the cold, erc.).
>
> A couple years ago I converted all of them again to LED bulbs by just 
> removing the electronic ballasts and inserting 8' LED bulbs for all 
> the reasons previously?stated. I gave all of the electronic?ballasts 
> to a friend who was still using fluorescent?8' tubes with magnetic 
> ballasts. These are the bulbs I used and I am completely satisfied 
> with them:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1 
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>
> You do not need to remove the ballast, just wire the sockets directly 
> to the 110VAC lines. It could not be easier.
>
> Here are 4' LED bulbs that I used for some other locations around the 
> house in the existing fluorescent?sockets for the same reasons:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>
> Again, the primary reason for using the replacement LEDs is that you 
> only have to change the bulbs and bypass the ballast. It is really 
> easy to do and the technology is the same. You are just reusing the 
> existing mounts.
>
> If I were starting fresh, from scratch, yes, I would just use the 
> direct mount LEDs that Mark is advocating. There is no need for the 
> reflectors as the LED lights do not emit 360 degree light, they can be 
> purchased in 90 degree or 120 degree spread if you desire.
>
> best,
> doug
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 9:42 PM Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:
>
>
>     Howdy,
>
>     They come with clips that you can screw to the ceiling.? There's
>     no fixture.? I don't know that a fixture would help in any event,
>     since the LEDs are all surface mounted, so they wouldn't throw
>     light up toward the ceiling in any event.
>
>     You all should do whatever you like, but after using both these as
>     well as fluorescents, there's no way I would use a fluorescent
>     fixture.? I might compare other LED solutions, but if they cost
>     significantly more than these, I wouldn't bother.? I've been
>     nothing but impressed / happy with them.
>
>     Mark
>
>     On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 7:14 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>     wrote:
>
>         A quick glance doesn't show how they're mounted; anyone know?
>         Seems like you'd still want a fixture to reflect light.
>
>
>         On 1/10/2022 1:42 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
>>         Howdy,
>>
>>         If I were doing this, I would pretty much just throw away the
>>         existing stuff and put up these:
>>
>>         https://www.amazon.com/Barrina-8500LM-Daylight-Output-Linkable/dp/B07RKZFD5Z/ref=sr_1_2_sspa
>>
>>         I have a shop that was built around 7 years ago and stuff
>>         like this wasn't available at this cost, so I went with 4
>>         tube fluorescent?fixtures.? They've been "fine", but when I
>>         redid our daily driver parking garage last year I used the
>>         Barrina lights.? Super easy, nice bright light, and pretty
>>         cheap. Absolutely no question that's what I'd do if I were
>>         redoing the shop / what I will do when the?time comes when
>>         the existing fluorescents die.
>>
>>         YMMV.
>>
>>         Mark
>>
>>         On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 3:08 PM Bob Spidell
>>         <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>             Since I was already 'LED curious,' I did a bit of research:
>>
>>             - there are some LED tubes that require a ballast* ('Type A')
>>             - there are some LED tubes that require bypassing of the
>>             ballast ('Type B')
>>             - there are some LED tubes that work with ballast or
>>             without/bypassing, with some rewiring* ('Type A+B')
>>
>>
>>             If you want the least (initial) hassle, and have 'fresh'
>>             ballasts--they all fail, eventually--you can plug and
>>             play the 'A+B' type with a ballast then, when the ballast
>>             fails you can bypass it, which requires some rewiring
>>             (apparently, you can leave the dead ballast in place).
>>
>>
>>             * Need to check compatibility between tube and ballast.
>>
>>
>>             On 1/10/2022 10:48 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
>>>             I used the Feit replacement LED tubes, it sounds like
>>>             they are similar.? Here are the instructions for the
>>>             Feit, maybe that will help?
>>>             https://www.feit.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/T4815_850_AB_LED_10_MANUAL_051019.pdf
>>>
>>>             Best,
>>>             Ian
>>>
>>>             On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:12 PM john niolon
>>>             <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Couple of years ago I bought a box of Utilitech
>>>                 t81636f16-40...4' led tubes...redid all my shop
>>>                 lights and was pleased with them
>>>                 now I want to add some fixtures in another part of
>>>                 shop and my memory has failed... I know I had to
>>>                 rewire fixtures to make them work
>>>                 but can remember what I did and instruction sheet is
>>>                 long gone or lost...
>>>                 Utilititech was a Lowes brand and now discontinued
>>>                 and Utilitech web site is a joke??? anyone tell me
>>>                 how to wire these bulbs up either with or
>>>                 without ballast..,....seems I remember they were non
>>>                 shunted bulbs...but now sure
>>>                 thanks
>>>                 john
>>>
>>
>>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     http://autox.team.net/archive
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  http://autox.team.net/archive
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From dhlocker at protonmail.com  Tue Jan 11 10:13:51 2022
From: dhlocker at protonmail.com (Donald H Locker)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 17:13:51 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <8f1d93fa-38fa-b6ef-cbde-1a78aa6fe7a6@comcast.net>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1pxgY60rTyO6eEuVmpq-FPgP=JYDum7=6yEjfLtu-qrNG7hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f1d93fa-38fa-b6ef-cbde-1a78aa6fe7a6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <d73fa536-881f-e682-3ae4-48454925fc65@protonmail.com>

[I'd intended to reply to the list and clicked the wrong button. Here it
is again, Bob.]

If you have "tombstones" (the end fittings into which the tubes are
plugged) that are for two-prongs (called "bi-pin") you'll have to get
the bi-pin tubes to fit. The single-post tombstones are completely
different, as are the tubes.

Be aware that T12 (1.5in diameter tubes) and most T8 (1.0in diameter
tubes) commonly use "medium bi-pin" spacing, while T5 and _some_ T8 use
a closer spacing. Best to measure the spacing on you fluorescent tubes
before committing to a pile of LED tubes.

HTH,
Donald.

On 2022-01-11 11:44 a.m., Bob Spidell wrote:
> I thought I had it figured out, but what's the difference in designation
> between older tubes with 2 small prongs on one end, and the newer style
> with one fat prong? It seems they're both called 'TX,' with 'X' being 8,
> 12, etc.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> vs.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
>
> On 1/11/2022 4:57 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>> The primary advantage of converting an existing fluorescent?fixture to
>> LED is that it is already there, wired, has the sockets, etc.
>>
>> I converted all of the 8' fluorescent?lights in my garage years ago
>> from magnetic ballast to electronic ballast and it was a good
>> investment for me at the?time (used less power, lights started faster,
>> there was less flicker, less noise, worked better in the cold, erc.).
>>
>> A couple years ago I converted all of them again to LED bulbs by just
>> removing the electronic ballasts and inserting 8' LED bulbs for all
>> the reasons previously?stated. I gave all of the electronic?ballasts
>> to a friend who was still using fluorescent?8' tubes with magnetic
>> ballasts. These are the bulbs I used and I am completely satisfied
>> with them:
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>>
>> You do not need to remove the ballast, just wire the sockets directly
>> to the 110VAC lines. It could not be easier.
>>
>> Here are 4' LED bulbs that I used for some other locations around the
>> house in the existing fluorescent?sockets for the same reasons:
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>>
>> Again, the primary reason for using the replacement LEDs is that you
>> only have to change the bulbs and bypass the ballast. It is really
>> easy to do and the technology is the same. You are just reusing the
>> existing mounts.
>>
>> If I were starting fresh, from scratch, yes, I would just use the
>> direct mount LEDs that Mark is advocating. There is no need for the
>> reflectors as the LED lights do not emit 360 degree light, they can be
>> purchased in 90 degree or 120 degree spread if you desire.
>>
>> best,
>> doug
>>
>>

[snip]


From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan 11 11:07:42 2022
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:07:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <d73fa536-881f-e682-3ae4-48454925fc65@protonmail.com>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1pxgY60rTyO6eEuVmpq-FPgP=JYDum7=6yEjfLtu-qrNG7hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f1d93fa-38fa-b6ef-cbde-1a78aa6fe7a6@comcast.net>
 <d73fa536-881f-e682-3ae4-48454925fc65@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFD71993B7.4A84DE80-ON852587C7.00637AF5-852587C7.00639560@mail.megageek.com>

I just want to jump in here to say that I have tons of 4' and 8' Fl bulbs 
that are free to however wants to come and pick them up (I can't image it 
being worth shipping the 8' however.)

Moose
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Jan 11 11:11:00 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 10:11:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <d73fa536-881f-e682-3ae4-48454925fc65@protonmail.com>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg@johns-desktop>
 <CAFnfnRWf8yPRXutUppJa9e-wfmF-KaSYfmrkHe_X-xqdeRwDvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1pxgY60rTyO6eEuVmpq-FPgP=JYDum7=6yEjfLtu-qrNG7hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f1d93fa-38fa-b6ef-cbde-1a78aa6fe7a6@comcast.net>
 <d73fa536-881f-e682-3ae4-48454925fc65@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <44c646bb-33a1-655b-9c85-b45dcf7d4a63@comcast.net>

Thanks, Donald. Does help.

But, I've not seen any labeling that indicate 'bi-pin' or otherwise 
(doesn't mean it wasn't there but I missed it). Do you just have to 
inspect before buying, or trust the photos on the website?? These days 
most show lumens, and color--as 'heat' in degrees Kelvin--and, usually, 
voltage, but no 'formal' designation; maybe like 'T12BPNS' ('1.5 inches 
diameter, Bi-Pin Narrow Spacing')?


On 1/11/2022 9:13 AM, Donald H Locker wrote:
> [I'd intended to reply to the list and clicked the wrong button. Here it
> is again, Bob.]
>
> If you have "tombstones" (the end fittings into which the tubes are
> plugged) that are for two-prongs (called "bi-pin") you'll have to get
> the bi-pin tubes to fit. The single-post tombstones are completely
> different, as are the tubes.
>
> Be aware that T12 (1.5in diameter tubes) and most T8 (1.0in diameter
> tubes) commonly use "medium bi-pin" spacing, while T5 and _some_ T8 use
> a closer spacing. Best to measure the spacing on you fluorescent tubes
> before committing to a pile of LED tubes.
>
> HTH,
> Donald.
>
> On 2022-01-11 11:44 a.m., Bob Spidell wrote:
>> I thought I had it figured out, but what's the difference in designation
>> between older tubes with 2 small prongs on one end, and the newer style
>> with one fat prong? It seems they're both called 'TX,' with 'X' being 8,
>> 12, etc.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>> vs.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>>
>>


From dhlocker at protonmail.com  Tue Jan 11 11:47:19 2022
From: dhlocker at protonmail.com (Donald H Locker)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 18:47:19 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] led tubes and short memory
In-Reply-To: <44c646bb-33a1-655b-9c85-b45dcf7d4a63@comcast.net>
References: <1UbiNPPptR.bEjZkxgKlSg.ref@johns-desktop>
 <72c53909-c36d-e711-1532-edd5f353b96b@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGO+EEM2U9ERJPUZ3DxCdh2wbgfu-Ey1GRsnMJLGPjLCvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ec4efd-b96e-a7c8-95de-4dcb4541f066@comcast.net>
 <CAAoSWGNzZZEbJ-wjtEj3CYHF5DN-3ov1MBKuCWc0FJw_=Ed+rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1pxgY60rTyO6eEuVmpq-FPgP=JYDum7=6yEjfLtu-qrNG7hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f1d93fa-38fa-b6ef-cbde-1a78aa6fe7a6@comcast.net>
 <d73fa536-881f-e682-3ae4-48454925fc65@protonmail.com>
 <44c646bb-33a1-655b-9c85-b45dcf7d4a63@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ec08a5e6-a8e2-6d5f-17c7-3717982a4d1a@protonmail.com>

Hop on over to the https://www.jesled.com site; they have more info than
amazon (and may have better prices; depends) to guide you. If their
specifications are not sufficiently clear, it might be worth looking at
other manufacturers' products. LED tubes are becoming much more common.

One other site I looked at was https://www.viribright.com/

Donald.

On 2022-01-11 1:11 p.m., Bob Spidell wrote:
> Thanks, Donald. Does help.
>
> But, I've not seen any labeling that indicate 'bi-pin' or otherwise
> (doesn't mean it wasn't there but I missed it). Do you just have to
> inspect before buying, or trust the photos on the website?? These days
> most show lumens, and color--as 'heat' in degrees Kelvin--and, usually,
> voltage, but no 'formal' designation; maybe like 'T12BPNS' ('1.5 inches
> diameter, Bi-Pin Narrow Spacing')?
>
>
> On 1/11/2022 9:13 AM, Donald H Locker wrote:
>> [I'd intended to reply to the list and clicked the wrong button. Here it
>> is again, Bob.]
>>
>> If you have "tombstones" (the end fittings into which the tubes are
>> plugged) that are for two-prongs (called "bi-pin") you'll have to get
>> the bi-pin tubes to fit. The single-post tombstones are completely
>> different, as are the tubes.
>>
>> Be aware that T12 (1.5in diameter tubes) and most T8 (1.0in diameter
>> tubes) commonly use "medium bi-pin" spacing, while T5 and _some_ T8 use
>> a closer spacing. Best to measure the spacing on you fluorescent tubes
>> before committing to a pile of LED tubes.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Donald.
>>
>> On 2022-01-11 11:44 a.m., Bob Spidell wrote:
>>> I thought I had it figured out, but what's the difference in designation
>>> between older tubes with 2 small prongs on one end, and the newer style
>>> with one fat prong? It seems they're both called 'TX,' with 'X' being 8,
>>> 12, etc.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074M8KCJ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>>
>>> vs.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074MC1FW3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at protonmail.com
>


From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Thu Jan 20 11:48:58 2022
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 10:48:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mesh size for engine oil strainer
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgb5EGgeSY-ksfOtp3SKEg96C1gxE01NoPFENY5FAXs+bw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

Does anybody know what would be the approximate appropriate mesh size of
the screens used to filter engine oil feeding out of the oil tanks or
frames on old British bikes (e.g., mesh size of 20, 40, 60, etc.)?
I am looking at these options from McMaster-Carr:
https://www.mcmaster.com/.../low-pressure-bronze-y.../...
<https://www.mcmaster.com/filter-screens/low-pressure-bronze-y-strainers-8/?fbclid=IwAR3zzH6D3awtNoVHjkpnQ2vcwzMnH_M7fIyf4jpnLguZLAw9Kfy1FBZzfLw>
I have added a paper filter on the return-side, so mostly I really want to
filter the debris that may come out of the frame until the paper filter has
had a chance to entirely clean the reservoir.
Too large of a mesh and it will not stop the debris, of course, but too
small and it would restrict/block the gravity flow of the oil.

Thank you very much!

-- 
Best,
doug
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Thu Jan 20 12:00:11 2022
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:00:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mesh size for engine oil strainer
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgb5EGgeSY-ksfOtp3SKEg96C1gxE01NoPFENY5FAXs+bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1pxgb5EGgeSY-ksfOtp3SKEg96C1gxE01NoPFENY5FAXs+bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMxkxTadmn1mVf-DtY+L2uv20GfQ3zqzGQmuYX4ZR1ZkQ@mail.gmail.com>

The only oil strainer I'm familiar with is the one on air-cooled
Volkswagens.  Seems like it's something under a millimeter....so less than
0.04" or so.  Getting into 20 or 30 mesh, if I read the chart correctly.

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 13:49 old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Does anybody know what would be the approximate appropriate mesh size of
> the screens used to filter engine oil feeding out of the oil tanks or
> frames on old British bikes (e.g., mesh size of 20, 40, 60, etc.)?
> I am looking at these options from McMaster-Carr:
> https://www.mcmaster.com/.../low-pressure-bronze-y.../...
> <https://www.mcmaster.com/filter-screens/low-pressure-bronze-y-strainers-8/?fbclid=IwAR3zzH6D3awtNoVHjkpnQ2vcwzMnH_M7fIyf4jpnLguZLAw9Kfy1FBZzfLw>
> I have added a paper filter on the return-side, so mostly I really want to
> filter the debris that may come out of the frame until the paper filter has
> had a chance to entirely clean the reservoir.
> Too large of a mesh and it will not stop the debris, of course, but too
> small and it would restrict/block the gravity flow of the oil.
>
> Thank you very much!
>
> --
> Best,
> doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Thu Jan 20 12:49:44 2022
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:49:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mesh size for engine oil strainer
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMxkxTadmn1mVf-DtY+L2uv20GfQ3zqzGQmuYX4ZR1ZkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CMxkxTadmn1mVf-DtY+L2uv20GfQ3zqzGQmuYX4ZR1ZkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AD631D16-ACD8-4B44-B7DC-7437DF6F1057@icloud.com>

Funny, the only filter I had any experience with was also old VWs!

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:05 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

?
The only oil strainer I'm familiar with is the one on air-cooled Volkswagens.  Seems like it's something under a millimeter....so less than 0.04" or so.  Getting into 20 or 30 mesh, if I read the chart correctly.

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 13:49 old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys, 
> 
> Does anybody know what would be the approximate appropriate mesh size of the screens used to filter engine oil feeding out of the oil tanks or frames on old British bikes (e.g., mesh size of 20, 40, 60, etc.)? 
> I am looking at these options from McMaster-Carr: 
> https://www.mcmaster.com/.../low-pressure-bronze-y.../...
> I have added a paper filter on the return-side, so mostly I really want to filter the debris that may come out of the frame until the paper filter has had a chance to entirely clean the reservoir. 
> Too large of a mesh and it will not stop the debris, of course, but too small and it would restrict/block the gravity flow of the oil.
> 
> Thank you very much!
> 
> -- 
> Best,
> doug
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
> 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Thu Jan 20 15:41:12 2022
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:41:12 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mesh size for engine oil strainer
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMxkxTadmn1mVf-DtY+L2uv20GfQ3zqzGQmuYX4ZR1ZkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1pxgb5EGgeSY-ksfOtp3SKEg96C1gxE01NoPFENY5FAXs+bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMxkxTadmn1mVf-DtY+L2uv20GfQ3zqzGQmuYX4ZR1ZkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgaNiu-NOYytTn6gn+LsTJ9f=SPf2EZJF8OhH0CP3JqWLA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Jeff, that was what I was hoping.

Much appreciated!

best,

doug

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The only oil strainer I'm familiar with is the one on air-cooled
> Volkswagens.  Seems like it's something under a millimeter....so less than
> 0.04" or so.  Getting into 20 or 30 mesh, if I read the chart correctly.
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 13:49 old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Does anybody know what would be the approximate appropriate mesh size of
>> the screens used to filter engine oil feeding out of the oil tanks or
>> frames on old British bikes (e.g., mesh size of 20, 40, 60, etc.)?
>> I am looking at these options from McMaster-Carr:
>> https://www.mcmaster.com/.../low-pressure-bronze-y.../...
>> <https://www.mcmaster.com/filter-screens/low-pressure-bronze-y-strainers-8/?fbclid=IwAR3zzH6D3awtNoVHjkpnQ2vcwzMnH_M7fIyf4jpnLguZLAw9Kfy1FBZzfLw>
>> I have added a paper filter on the return-side, so mostly I really want
>> to filter the debris that may come out of the frame until the paper filter
>> has had a chance to entirely clean the reservoir.
>> Too large of a mesh and it will not stop the debris, of course, but too
>> small and it would restrict/block the gravity flow of the oil.
>>
>> Thank you very much!
>>
>> --
>> Best,
>> doug
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>>
>>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Jan 20 16:56:26 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:56:26 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mesh size for engine oil strainer
In-Reply-To: <AD631D16-ACD8-4B44-B7DC-7437DF6F1057@icloud.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CMxkxTadmn1mVf-DtY+L2uv20GfQ3zqzGQmuYX4ZR1ZkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AD631D16-ACD8-4B44-B7DC-7437DF6F1057@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <03b2c200-d17e-f66d-2189-fd764a25a73f@comcast.net>

Some aircraft use screen oil filter cartridges; I searched a little but, 
unfortunately nothing I found listed a mesh size.


On 1/20/2022 11:49 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Funny, the only filter I had any experience with was also old VWs!
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:05 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> The only oil strainer I'm familiar with is the one on air-cooled 
> Volkswagens.? Seems like it's something under a millimeter....so less 
> than 0.04" or so.? Getting into 20 or 30 mesh, if I read the chart 
> correctly.
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 13:49 old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>     Hi guys,
>     Does anybody know what would be the approximate appropriate mesh
>     size of the screens used to filter engine oil feeding out of the
>     oil tanks or frames on old British bikes (e.g., mesh size of 20,
>     40, 60, etc.)?
>     I am looking at these options from McMaster-Carr:
>     https://www.mcmaster.com/.../low-pressure-bronze-y.../...
>     <https://www.mcmaster.com/filter-screens/low-pressure-bronze-y-strainers-8/?fbclid=IwAR3zzH6D3awtNoVHjkpnQ2vcwzMnH_M7fIyf4jpnLguZLAw9Kfy1FBZzfLw>
>     I have added a paper filter on the return-side, so mostly I really
>     want to filter the debris that may come out of the frame until the
>     paper filter has had a chance to entirely clean the reservoir.
>     Too large of a mesh and it will not stop the debris, of course,
>     but too small and it would restrict/block the gravity flow of the oil.
>     Thank you very much!
>
>     -- 
>     Best,
>     doug
>
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From jniolon at att.net  Mon Jan 24 15:26:41 2022
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:26:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>

tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a 
tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic 
dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
within 6 ' of sink

pros and cons ? recommendations.  
This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)

thanks
john
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From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jan 24 15:31:27 2022
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:31:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <OFE0FAF6C7.F6F18D05-ON852587D4.007B70A0-852587D4.007BBB0A@mail.megageek.com>

I installed one in my garage and it is the way to go.  I actually keep it 
ready to make REALLY hot water. It is awesome for cleaning parts and such 
as well.

Mine is a 120v and was super easy to install and plumb.

After about 12/13 years, the TP valve is a little flaky and I'm to busy to 
change it.  Every now and then it starts to leak a little and I just have 
to turn off the unit, let it cool and turn it back on and its fine.

I'm sure the units no are way better then what I have.

I can't think of any cons.  GO FOR IT!!!  (Besides, its an excuse to by 
another tool.)

Moose
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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jan 24 15:39:17 2022
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:39:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supd-bVhXuUGcA3vhCaDK92VQHJBBNYp7fTarsC5xZPpyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:27 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>
> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
> within 6 ' of sink
>
> pros and cons ? recommendations.
> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>

an 1800W tankless water heater (the biggest you can plug into 120V
outlet) will have a temperature rise of 25 degrees at 0.5 gpm.
(that's the physics of water.  they're all going to have similar
performance.  Anything that claims better is lying or has a tank)
That will turn cold water into less cold water, or warm water into hot
water.  you probably want something with a tank.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 24 15:51:42 2022
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:51:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <014701d81174$f4be7270$de3b5750$@gmail.com>

I just returned from an extended trip to my step-mother?s house, which has tankless instant hot water heaters [one for the kitchen and one for the two bathrooms]. I?m a convert!

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of john niolon
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 5:27 PM
To: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater

 

tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay

with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug

within 6 ' of sink

 

pros and cons ? recommendations.  
This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)

 

thanks

john

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan 24 17:04:30 2022
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:04:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5supd-bVhXuUGcA3vhCaDK92VQHJBBNYp7fTarsC5xZPpyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <CA+k5supd-bVhXuUGcA3vhCaDK92VQHJBBNYp7fTarsC5xZPpyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9747E7E2-2DE9-4B4C-8F3A-03C9C4A8F820@groupwbench.org>



> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:39 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:27 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
>> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
>> within 6 ' of sink
>> 
>> pros and cons ? recommendations.
>> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>> 
> 
> an 1800W tankless water heater (the biggest you can plug into 120V
> outlet) will have a temperature rise of 25 degrees at 0.5 gpm.
> (that's the physics of water.  they're all going to have similar
> performance.  Anything that claims better is lying or has a tank)
> That will turn cold water into less cold water, or warm water into hot
> water.  you probably want something with a tank.
> 

I'm pretty sure that you can change the 120 outlet to a 240 3 prong outlet and use the existing wiring, as long as you re-wire it in the breaker box to have a 240 breaker and stay within the current limits. A dumb heater will not need a neutral so the 14/2 or 12/2 (with ground) will work unless I'm having a senior moment. 

That said I think for hand washing a 120v heater is plenty as long as you keep the flow down. Personally, I know me and I would start using it for more than hand washing, so I'd go bigger. Actually I'd get a small tank heater and insulate top & botton with rigid foam and sides with a blanket. And the pipes too. 

Let us know what you end up doing.

jim

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jan 24 20:42:49 2022
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 21:42:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <9747E7E2-2DE9-4B4C-8F3A-03C9C4A8F820@groupwbench.org>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <CA+k5supd-bVhXuUGcA3vhCaDK92VQHJBBNYp7fTarsC5xZPpyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9747E7E2-2DE9-4B4C-8F3A-03C9C4A8F820@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supg6ghXDxzTXykvUvasn7oq2yhT-_1Bv5EjxT=Yhgn3Zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 6:04 PM Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:39 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:27 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
> >> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
> >> within 6 ' of sink
> >>
> >> pros and cons ? recommendations.
> >> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
> >>
> >
> > an 1800W tankless water heater (the biggest you can plug into 120V
> > outlet) will have a temperature rise of 25 degrees at 0.5 gpm.
> > (that's the physics of water.  they're all going to have similar
> > performance.  Anything that claims better is lying or has a tank)
> > That will turn cold water into less cold water, or warm water into hot
> > water.  you probably want something with a tank.
> >
>
> I'm pretty sure that you can change the 120 outlet to a 240 3 prong outlet and use the existing wiring, as long as you re-wire it in the breaker box to have a 240 breaker and stay within the current limits. A dumb heater will not need a neutral so the 14/2 or 12/2 (with ground) will work unless I'm having a senior moment.

You can do that if there's nothing else on that circuit, and you can
easily change the breaker.  a 20A 240V circuit lets you install a 4000
or 4200 W heater, which gives a heat rise of 65F at 0.5 gpm.  That's
probably enough temperature rise, even here where the incoming water
is currently less than 40F, but that's pretty low flow.  If you're
somewhere where 'cold' water is 60F, then it looks a lot better.  (a
gallon a minute is plenty for washing hands, it's slow if you want to
fill a sink or bucket).

It'll take a long time for the efficiency of tankless heater to pay
for the required changes though, and a plug in tank heater is cheap.




-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Tue Jan 25 07:40:06 2022
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:40:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>

I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other brands will work just as well.

https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater&qid=1643121197&sprefix=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1

Jim

> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
> 
> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
> within 6 ' of sink
>  
> pros and cons ? recommendations.  
> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>  
> thanks
> john
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
> 

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Jan 25 08:09:24 2022
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 10:09:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMH-aZKtN=RnAzUfBQVN8TgKOGifpBiQG7CwiaHc=vYmQ@mail.gmail.com>

So, is this installed in the cold water line?  Our master bath is a
long way from the primary water heater, and it takes a while for warm
water to make its way up.  But I'd have to plumb the tank outlet into
the regular hot water supply or take 4 minute showers.  Or plumb it
with a hot water supply...

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 9:40 AM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other brands will work just as well.
>
> https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater&qid=1643121197&sprefix=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1
>
> Jim
>
> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>
> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
> within 6 ' of sink
>
> pros and cons ? recommendations.
> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>
> thanks
> john
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>

From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Tue Jan 25 08:37:36 2022
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 10:37:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMH-aZKtN=RnAzUfBQVN8TgKOGifpBiQG7CwiaHc=vYmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMH-aZKtN=RnAzUfBQVN8TgKOGifpBiQG7CwiaHc=vYmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DEE71862-9EDF-4CF3-89B4-D57863723906@gmail.com>

It is plumbed to the hot water line.  These heaters have two potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where there isn?t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for situations like mine.  For us, it is really just for hand washing and dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the main heater to kick in.  I don?t notice a drop off after extended use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to come through.  The installation instructions cover both methods and do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140?.

Jim

> On Jan 25, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So, is this installed in the cold water line?  Our master bath is a
> long way from the primary water heater, and it takes a while for warm
> water to make its way up.  But I'd have to plumb the tank outlet into
> the regular hot water supply or take 4 minute showers.  Or plumb it
> with a hot water supply...
> 
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 9:40 AM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other brands will work just as well.
>> 
>> https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater&qid=1643121197&sprefix=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1
>> 
>> Jim
>> 
>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
>> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
>> within 6 ' of sink
>> 
>> pros and cons ? recommendations.
>> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>> 
>> thanks
>> john
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>> 


From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Tue Jan 25 09:14:03 2022
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 11:14:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a3ddeec-3023-c6eb-a802-785e5c62f899@sackheads.org>

On 1/25/22 09:40, Jim Stone wrote:
> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction 
> with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day)


I'm curious...what bad experiences did you have with your tankless heater?



From patintexas at icloud.com  Tue Jan 25 09:45:36 2022
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 10:45:36 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <DEE71862-9EDF-4CF3-89B4-D57863723906@gmail.com>
References: <DEE71862-9EDF-4CF3-89B4-D57863723906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D60E68BA-3AE9-478B-84F7-AD322BBEC631@icloud.com>

This is off target from the OP. 

I?ve seen homes/shops where it can take minutes for hot water to reach a fixture. One DIY fix for wasting water I ran across was to add a small pump, check valve & a bit of control circuitry at the fixture. Plumb the pump & check valve between the hot & cold lines so that when the pump runs it will transfer water from the hot line to the cold line with the check valve keeping the cold water from getting into the hot line. 

Add a push button near the fixture that turns the pump on for either a preset time or monitor the hot line & turn off the pump when hot water is present. 

It still takes the same amount of time but it doesn?t waste water. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:

?It is plumbed to the hot water line.  These heaters have two potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where there isn?t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for situations like mine.  For us, it is really just for hand washing and dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the main heater to kick in.  I don?t notice a drop off after extended use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to come through.  The installation instructions cover both methods and do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140?.

Jim

> On Jan 25, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So, is this installed in the cold water line?  Our master bath is a
> long way from the primary water heater, and it takes a while for warm
> water to make its way up.  But I'd have to plumb the tank outlet into
> the regular hot water supply or take 4 minute showers.  Or plumb it
> with a hot water supply...
> 
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 9:40 AM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other brands will work just as well.
>> 
>> https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater&qid=1643121197&sprefix=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1
>> 
>> Jim
>> 
>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
>> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
>> within 6 ' of sink
>> 
>> pros and cons ? recommendations.
>> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>> 
>> thanks
>> john
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From tjcora at icloud.com  Tue Jan 25 18:57:38 2022
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:57:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <D60E68BA-3AE9-478B-84F7-AD322BBEC631@icloud.com>
References: <DEE71862-9EDF-4CF3-89B4-D57863723906@gmail.com>
 <D60E68BA-3AE9-478B-84F7-AD322BBEC631@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <825D113E-E99A-4CE9-90F1-D4646FB0EBD7@icloud.com>

Yep. Metlund D?mand. I have one in my master bathroom. Worth every penny.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 25 Jan 2022, at 11:45 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> This is off target from the OP. 
> 
> I?ve seen homes/shops where it can take minutes for hot water to reach a fixture. One DIY fix for wasting water I ran across was to add a small pump, check valve & a bit of control circuitry at the fixture. Plumb the pump & check valve between the hot & cold lines so that when the pump runs it will transfer water from the hot line to the cold line with the check valve keeping the cold water from getting into the hot line. 
> 
> Add a push button near the fixture that turns the pump on for either a preset time or monitor the hot line & turn off the pump when hot water is present. 
> 
> It still takes the same amount of time but it doesn?t waste water. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?It is plumbed to the hot water line.  These heaters have two potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where there isn?t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for situations like mine.  For us, it is really just for hand washing and dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the main heater to kick in.  I don?t notice a drop off after extended use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to come through.  The installation instructions cover both methods and do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140?.
> 
> Jim
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> So, is this installed in the cold water line?  Our master bath is a
>> long way from the primary water heater, and it takes a while for warm
>> water to make its way up.  But I'd have to plumb the tank outlet into
>> the regular hot water supply or take 4 minute showers.  Or plumb it
>> with a hot water supply...
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 9:40 AM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other brands will work just as well.
>>> 
>>> https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater&qid=1643121197&sprefix=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1
>>> 
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
>>> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
>>> within 6 ' of sink
>>> 
>>> pros and cons ? recommendations.
>>> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>>> 
>>> thanks
>>> john
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 25 19:00:47 2022
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 18:00:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <D60E68BA-3AE9-478B-84F7-AD322BBEC631@icloud.com>
References: <DEE71862-9EDF-4CF3-89B4-D57863723906@gmail.com>
 <D60E68BA-3AE9-478B-84F7-AD322BBEC631@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <4daab7bb-fa2c-7e4b-5947-2f2c8a9ad364@earthlink.net>

I've been looking at this.? We have a guest shower that takes about 3 
minutes to get hot water.? Here is a sample product designed 
specifically to be mounted at the far destination, like under a sink.? 
Push the button and the pump runs, pushing hot water into the cold pipe 
until the pump senses the water is hot.

https://chilipeppersales.com/collections/frontpage/products/chilipepper-on-demand-hot-water-recirculating-pump-model-cp9000-b-version-wireless-wired
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-1-25-HP-Hot-Water-Recirculating-Pump-with-Under-Sink-Kit-RH18537/301852244

Here is a sample video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQC_shrv8KA

I have not used any of these products.? I hear the Chilipepper one is loud.

Brian

On 1/25/2022 8:45 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> This is off target from the OP.
>
> I?ve seen homes/shops where it can take minutes for hot water to reach a fixture. One DIY fix for wasting water I ran across was to add a small pump, check valve & a bit of control circuitry at the fixture. Plumb the pump & check valve between the hot & cold lines so that when the pump runs it will transfer water from the hot line to the cold line with the check valve keeping the cold water from getting into the hot line.
>
> Add a push button near the fixture that turns the pump on for either a preset time or monitor the hot line & turn off the pump when hot water is present.
>
> It still takes the same amount of time but it doesn?t waste water.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?It is plumbed to the hot water line.  These heaters have two potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where there isn?t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for situations like mine.  For us, it is really just for hand washing and dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the main heater to kick in.  I don?t notice a drop off after extended use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to come through.  The installation instructions cover both methods and do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140?.
>
> Jim
>
>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, is this installed in the cold water line?  Our master bath is a
>> long way from the primary water heater, and it takes a while for warm
>> water to make its way up.  But I'd have to plumb the tank outlet into
>> the regular hot water supply or take 4 minute showers.  Or plumb it
>> with a hot water supply...
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 9:40 AM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day) and installed a 7 gallon Bosch water heater in the basement, as close to the kitchen faucet as I could get.  It makes an incredible difference and my wife considers it one of the best improvements I have made to our house in years. I am inclined to agree with her.  The 7 gallon version has to be hard-wired to a dedicated circuit, but the 2.5 and 4 gallon versions can be plugged in.  One of those should meet your needs pretty easily.  Here is a link to the Bosch units, although I am sure other brands will work just as well.
>>>
>>> https://smile.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1GEI41I05EXPQ&keywords=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater&qid=1643121197&sprefix=under%2Bsink%2Bwater%2Bheater%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzhaMk9QNzlZMlhDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDEwNzk5M0RPREhQQTVYSllVUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDIxNTQ4MzEwRUQyUUZBTThRSyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:26 PM, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> tired of just cold (really cold) water in the shop sink./..thinking about a tankless/instant water heater.  Would like to stay
>>> with 120v if possible to avoid additional wiring (me crawling around in attic dragging wire with bad knees and hips.  I have an available plug
>>> within 6 ' of sink
>>>
>>> pros and cons ? recommendations.
>>> This will strictly be a hand washing sink to be used after putting up my tools  (shop content)
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> john
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
>


From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Jan 26 08:36:11 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 07:36:11 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <4daab7bb-fa2c-7e4b-5947-2f2c8a9ad364@earthlink.net>
References: <DEE71862-9EDF-4CF3-89B4-D57863723906@gmail.com>
 <D60E68BA-3AE9-478B-84F7-AD322BBEC631@icloud.com>
 <4daab7bb-fa2c-7e4b-5947-2f2c8a9ad364@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>

Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the 
hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go? I'm on a well, with 
a 500g storage tank that sits at about 50psi, and I suspect municipal 
water is at a similar pressure. Mine would go back to the tank--if the 
pump can overcome the pressure--but where would municipal water go?


On 1/25/2022 6:00 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
> I've been looking at this.? We have a guest shower that takes about 3 
> minutes to get hot water.? Here is a sample product designed 
> specifically to be mounted at the far destination, like under a sink.? 
> Push the button and the pump runs, pushing hot water into the cold 
> pipe until the pump senses the water is hot.
>
> https://chilipeppersales.com/collections/frontpage/products/chilipepper-on-demand-hot-water-recirculating-pump-model-cp9000-b-version-wireless-wired 
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-1-25-HP-Hot-Water-Recirculating-Pump-with-Under-Sink-Kit-RH18537/301852244 
>
>
> Here is a sample video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQC_shrv8KA
>
> I have not used any of these products.? I hear the Chilipepper one is 
> loud.
>
> Brian
>
> On 1/25/2022 8:45 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> This is off target from the OP.
>>
>> I?ve seen homes/shops where it can take minutes for hot water to 
>> reach a fixture. One DIY fix for wasting water I ran across was to 
>> add a small pump, check valve & a bit of control circuitry at the 
>> fixture. Plumb the pump & check valve between the hot & cold lines so 
>> that when the pump runs it will transfer water from the hot line to 
>> the cold line with the check valve keeping the cold water from 
>> getting into the hot line.
>>
>> Add a push button near the fixture that turns the pump on for either 
>> a preset time or monitor the hot line & turn off the pump when hot 
>> water is present.
>>
>> It still takes the same amount of time but it doesn?t waste water.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?It is plumbed to the hot water line.? These heaters have two 
>> potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where 
>> there isn?t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for 
>> situations like mine.? For us, it is really just for hand washing and 
>> dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the 
>> main heater to kick in.? I don?t notice a drop off after extended 
>> use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to 
>> come through.? The installation instructions cover both methods and 
>> do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I 
>> recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140?.
>>
>> Jim


From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 08:47:44 2022
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 09:47:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
References: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BB3CAEDF-48DE-455F-ABF3-4D539A62E0B6@gmail.com>



> On Jan 26, 2022, at 09:37, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> ?Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go?

The water the pump pushes back into the cold is taken from the water heater. The water heater draws replacement water from the cold supply, which is replaced with the water the pump is pumping. 




From tjcora at icloud.com  Wed Jan 26 09:10:34 2022
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:10:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
References: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B2CD7145-9663-4B7C-BFF7-A2853DE53E40@icloud.com>

The system pulls cold water from the hot supply where it is located and pushes it into the cold supply line. Both hot and cold sit at the same pressure, so a small differential is all that is required to create flow thru that loop. 

Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> ?Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go? I'm on a well, with a 500g storage tank that sits at about 50psi, and I suspect municipal water is at a similar pressure. Mine would go back to the tank--if the pump can overcome the pressure--but where would municipal water go?
> 
> 
>> On 1/25/2022 6:00 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
>> I've been looking at this.  We have a guest shower that takes about 3 minutes to get hot water.  Here is a sample product designed specifically to be mounted at the far destination, like under a sink.  Push the button and the pump runs, pushing hot water into the cold pipe until the pump senses the water is hot.
>> 
>> https://chilipeppersales.com/collections/frontpage/products/chilipepper-on-demand-hot-water-recirculating-pump-model-cp9000-b-version-wireless-wired 
>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-1-25-HP-Hot-Water-Recirculating-Pump-with-Under-Sink-Kit-RH18537/301852244 
>> 
>> Here is a sample video:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQC_shrv8KA
>> 
>> I have not used any of these products.  I hear the Chilipepper one is loud.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>>> On 1/25/2022 8:45 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>>> This is off target from the OP.
>>> 
>>> I?ve seen homes/shops where it can take minutes for hot water to reach a fixture. One DIY fix for wasting water I ran across was to add a small pump, check valve & a bit of control circuitry at the fixture. Plumb the pump & check valve between the hot & cold lines so that when the pump runs it will transfer water from the hot line to the cold line with the check valve keeping the cold water from getting into the hot line.
>>> 
>>> Add a push button near the fixture that turns the pump on for either a preset time or monitor the hot line & turn off the pump when hot water is present.
>>> 
>>> It still takes the same amount of time but it doesn?t waste water.
>>> 
>>> Peace,
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> Pat Horne
>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?It is plumbed to the hot water line.  These heaters have two potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where there isn?t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for situations like mine.  For us, it is really just for hand washing and dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the main heater to kick in.  I don?t notice a drop off after extended use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to come through.  The installation instructions cover both methods and do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140?.
>>> 
>>> Jim
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Jan 26 09:24:37 2022
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 08:24:37 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <B2CD7145-9663-4B7C-BFF7-A2853DE53E40@icloud.com>
References: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
 <B2CD7145-9663-4B7C-BFF7-A2853DE53E40@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <62af1d19-84d4-b953-1274-097ba4950dc4@comcast.net>

Thanks for the replies.


On 1/26/2022 8:10 AM, Tom Coradeschi wrote:
> The system pulls cold water from the hot supply where it is located and pushes it into the cold supply line. Both hot and cold sit at the same pressure, so a small differential is all that is required to create flow thru that loop.
>
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> ?Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go? I'm on a well, with a 500g storage tank that sits at about 50psi, and I suspect municipal water is at a similar pressure. Mine would go back to the tank--if the pump can overcome the pressure--but where would municipal water go?
>>
>>
>>> On 1/25/2022 6:00 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
>>> I've been looking at this.  We have a guest shower that takes about 3 minutes to get hot water.  Here is a sample product designed specifically to be mounted at the far destination, like under a sink.  Push the button and the pump runs, pushing hot water into the cold pipe until the pump senses the water is hot.
>>>
>>> https://chilipeppersales.com/collections/frontpage/products/chilipepper-on-demand-hot-water-recirculating-pump-model-cp9000-b-version-wireless-wired
>>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-1-25-HP-Hot-Water-Recirculating-Pump-with-Under-Sink-Kit-RH18537/301852244
>>>
>>> Here is a sample video:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQC_shrv8KA
>>>
>>> I have not used any of these products.  I hear the Chilipepper one is loud.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>> On 1/25/2022 8:45 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>>>> This is off target from the OP.
>>>>
>>>> I?ve seen homes/shops where it can take minutes for hot water to reach a fixture. One DIY fix for wasting water I ran across was to add a small pump, check valve & a bit of control circuitry at the fixture. Plumb the pump & check valve between the hot & cold lines so that when the pump runs it will transfer water from the hot line to the cold line with the check valve keeping the cold water from getting into the hot line.
>>>>
>>>> Add a push button near the fixture that turns the pump on for either a preset time or monitor the hot line & turn off the pump when hot water is present.
>>>>
>>>> It still takes the same amount of time but it doesn?t waste water.
>>>>
>>>> Peace,
>>>> Pat
>>>>
>>>> Pat Horne
>>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ?It is plumbed to the hot water line.  These heaters have two potential uses: as a sole source of hot water (e.g., for a sink where there isn?t another hot water source) or as supplemental heat for situations like mine.  For us, it is really just for hand washing and dish washing and not to have to waste so much water waiting for the main heater to kick in.  I don?t notice a drop off after extended use, so I assume 7 gallons is enough to allow the main hot water to come through.  The installation instructions cover both methods and do warn you not to set the heat on the main unit too high; as I recall, the max for incoming water was something like 140?.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>


From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Wed Jan 26 10:09:16 2022
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 17:09:16 -0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <BB3CAEDF-48DE-455F-ABF3-4D539A62E0B6@gmail.com>
References: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
 <BB3CAEDF-48DE-455F-ABF3-4D539A62E0B6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012701d812d7$73116ca0$593445e0$@talktalk.net>

So the water that has come from the water heater and has been sitting in the hot water pipe is pushed back into the pipe supply the cold water to that bathroom? Not ideal when you want to brush your teeth, or am I misunderstanding it?

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Scheidt
Sent: 26 January 2022 15:48
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot water to fixture



> On Jan 26, 2022, at 09:37, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> ?Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go?

The water the pump pushes back into the cold is taken from the water heater. The water heater draws replacement water from the cold supply, which is replaced with the water the pump is pumping. 




From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 10:16:41 2022
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:16:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <012701d812d7$73116ca0$593445e0$@talktalk.net>
References: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
 <BB3CAEDF-48DE-455F-ABF3-4D539A62E0B6@gmail.com>
 <012701d812d7$73116ca0$593445e0$@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>

Not much different than the water that has been sitting in the cold-water
supply line though, right?

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 12:09 PM Neil Sherry <neiljsherry at talktalk.net>
wrote:

> So the water that has come from the water heater and has been sitting in
> the hot water pipe is pushed back into the pipe supply the cold water to
> that bathroom? Not ideal when you want to brush your teeth, or am I
> misunderstanding it?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> David Scheidt
> Sent: 26 January 2022 15:48
> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
> water to fixture
>
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 09:37, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > ?Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the
> hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go?
>
> The water the pump pushes back into the cold is taken from the water
> heater. The water heater draws replacement water from the cold supply,
> which is replaced with the water the pump is pumping.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky at gmail.com
>
>
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed Jan 26 10:23:35 2022
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:23:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04CA3C52-2F7C-433C-B1DF-03268ED52AE6@icloud.com>

Correct. Only difference is that when you turn on the cold water you will get cold hot water & whatever crud may have come out of the tank. Other than that, the water should be identical. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Jan 26, 2022, at 11:20 AM, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Not much different than the water that has been sitting in the cold-water supply line though, right?

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 12:09 PM Neil Sherry <neiljsherry at talktalk.net> wrote:
> So the water that has come from the water heater and has been sitting in the hot water pipe is pushed back into the pipe supply the cold water to that bathroom? Not ideal when you want to brush your teeth, or am I misunderstanding it?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Scheidt
> Sent: 26 January 2022 15:48
> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot water to fixture
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 09:37, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> > 
> > ?Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go?
> 
> The water the pump pushes back into the cold is taken from the water heater. The water heater draws replacement water from the cold supply, which is replaced with the water the pump is pumping. 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky at gmail.com
> 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com

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From ejrussell61 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 10:29:04 2022
From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:29:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
 <BB3CAEDF-48DE-455F-ABF3-4D539A62E0B6@gmail.com>
 <012701d812d7$73116ca0$593445e0$@talktalk.net>
 <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7dBXA6sBWcsUyWNgERrwMxKqa_Q8TZKQzZUi74+d4ZRFDW5g@mail.gmail.com>

Reminds me of a Car Talk Puzzler.

https://www.cartalk.com/radio/puzzler/ray-search-some-hot-water

-- 
Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Wed Jan 26 10:39:35 2022
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:39:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E2FE7BC9-EB4D-43F4-8477-35C88CDF8422@icloud.com>

The unit I have has a temp sensor. It shuts off when it senses warm water on the hot side - in fact won?t turn on if you already have warm water on the hot side. 

Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 12:20 PM, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Not much different than the water that has been sitting in the cold-water supply line though, right?
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 12:09 PM Neil Sherry <neiljsherry at talktalk.net> wrote:
>> So the water that has come from the water heater and has been sitting in the hot water pipe is pushed back into the pipe supply the cold water to that bathroom? Not ideal when you want to brush your teeth, or am I misunderstanding it?
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Scheidt
>> Sent: 26 January 2022 15:48
>> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot water to fixture
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 09:37, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> > 
>> > ?Got a question: Where does the (heating) water being shunted from the hot water line to the cold water line by a pump go?
>> 
>> The water the pump pushes back into the cold is taken from the water heater. The water heater draws replacement water from the cold supply, which is replaced with the water the pump is pumping. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky at gmail.com
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 
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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 10:40:42 2022
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:40:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was tankless/instant water heater now slow hot
 water to fixture
In-Reply-To: <CAP7dBXA6sBWcsUyWNgERrwMxKqa_Q8TZKQzZUi74+d4ZRFDW5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8de1034a-23fc-5158-ce77-d9e323a882f7@comcast.net>
 <BB3CAEDF-48DE-455F-ABF3-4D539A62E0B6@gmail.com>
 <012701d812d7$73116ca0$593445e0$@talktalk.net>
 <CAOErii=o3rDGWdU4gRoaH1E8yyvkZXBnwOb_-oaheVRMptq5Ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7dBXA6sBWcsUyWNgERrwMxKqa_Q8TZKQzZUi74+d4ZRFDW5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <369301A2-FDF3-4918-92B0-9FAD877FFE1E@gmail.com>

Boy, I miss CarTalk!

We added a bathroom to our house years ago and had the plumbers put in a hot water loop.  It was a trivial additional cost and we always had near instant hot water in the shower.  Well worth the few extra dollars.

> On Jan 26, 2022, at 12:29 PM, Eric Russell <ejrussell61 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Reminds me of a Car Talk Puzzler. 
> 
> https://www.cartalk.com/radio/puzzler/ray-search-some-hot-water <https://www.cartalk.com/radio/puzzler/ray-search-some-hot-water> 
> 
> -- 
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
> 

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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 19:30:11 2022
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:30:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was:
 tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <2a3ddeec-3023-c6eb-a802-785e5c62f899@sackheads.org>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
 <2a3ddeec-3023-c6eb-a802-785e5c62f899@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <23662393-247F-4B20-8E85-93B21B18231B@gmail.com>

I held off answering Jimmie?s question below until the original topic seemed to have played out.  With that now apparently done, here is my experience with full house tankless heaters.

I have two tankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a small living area adjacent to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above it - and one in my house.  Both are propane fired, as I live in a fairly rural area and natural gas isn?t available here. The garage unit is a combination DHW and hydronic heating unit (I have heated floors in the shop and downstairs living area) made by a company called Laars.  https://www.laars.com <https://www.laars.com/>. I have no complaints with that unit and love having heated floors in the garage.  (I ran the lines before the concrete was poured.)

My house is a very small (780 sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem tankless unit (RTGH-900VLP-2) that was installed when the house was completely rebuilt (as in, new house built on the original foundation) three years ago. The shower is no more than 15ft from the heater, yet it takes several minutes to get hot water to the shower.  It was instantaneous when we had a conventional tank unit, but my community requires new construction to meet specific energy efficiency standards that required us to use a tankless unit.  I complained about the heat when the unit was new and an inspection revealed a faulty mixing valve, which was replaced under warranty.  I was still unhappy and Rheem told me how to bypass the preset maximum temperature of 120? and it is better with the unit set to 130? or 140?, but I have a hard time believing that should be necessary.  As I said, it took a separate small electric unit to be able to get fast heat to the kitchen and there is maybe 40? of insulated PEX pipe between the heater and the sink. (The temp in the basement is generally around 60?.)

The Rheem unit was recommended by my plumber and is highly rated, so maybe my unit is just a lemon.  But, I spoke with a plumber before installing the 7.5 gallon unit for the sink and he told me he installs a lot of small ?point of use? tanked units in house with tankless heaters, so my complaint can?t be unique to my heater.  Overall, I like the fact that my house is very energy efficient, but I really miss the days when I could hop in the shower immediately and not have to worry about waiting for the water to warm up. 

Jim

> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 AM, Jimmie Mayfield <mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org> wrote:
> 
> On 1/25/22 09:40, Jim Stone wrote:
>> I got tired of waiting for hot water in my kitchen (my dissatisfaction with my Rheem tankless water heater is a subject for a different day)
> 
> 
> I'm curious...what bad experiences did you have with your tankless heater?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
> 

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From dave1massey at cs.com  Fri Jan 28 06:13:05 2022
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:13:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was:
 tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <23662393-247F-4B20-8E85-93B21B18231B@gmail.com>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
 <2a3ddeec-3023-c6eb-a802-785e5c62f899@sackheads.org>
 <23662393-247F-4B20-8E85-93B21B18231B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1224379374.3508318.1643375585364@mail.yahoo.com>

 Jim, your plumber may have made that recommendation based on reliability and not necessarily on performance.? 

A coworker of mine installed a tankless heater because he has a wife and two daughters who would regularly empty the 30 gallon tank when showering.? He noted that the heater would delay heating water to the point that the front-loading washer would never draw water long enough to get it to kick in.? My speculation is that the manufacturer programmed in a delay to confirm a good, solid hot water demand in pursuit of their energy rating.
15 feet of 1/2 inch tubing will hold about .05 gallons of water.? Most shower heads deliver 1 GPM.? That means it should take about 3 seconds to purge the cold water out of the line.? OK, 6 seconds if you are drawing a mix of hot and cold.? Several minutes is probably the heater control.? Maybe the flow switch is not sensitive enough to detect the flow at that level.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com>
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 27, 2022 8:30 pm
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was: tankless/instant water heater

I held off answering Jimmie?s question below until the original topic seemed to have played out. ?With that now apparently done, here is my experience with full house tankless heaters.

I have two tankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a small living area adjacent to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above it - and one in my house. ?Both are propane fired, as I live in a fairly rural area and natural gas isn?t available here. The garage unit is a combination DHW and hydronic heating unit (I have heated floors in the shop and downstairs living area) made by a company called Laars. ?https://www.laars.com. I have no complaints with that unit and love having heated floors in the garage. ?(I ran the lines before the concrete was poured.)

My house is a very small (780 sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem tankless unit (RTGH-900VLP-2) that was installed when the house was completely rebuilt?(as in, new house built on the original foundation)?three years ago. The shower is no more than 15ft from the heater, yet it takes several minutes to get hot water to the shower. ?It was instantaneous when we had a conventional tank unit, but my community requires new construction to meet specific energy efficiency standards that required us to use a tankless unit. ?I complained about the heat when the unit was new and an inspection revealed a faulty mixing valve, which was replaced under warranty. ?I was still unhappy and Rheem told me how to bypass the preset maximum temperature of 120? and it is better with the unit set to 130? or 140?, but I have a hard time believing that should be necessary. ?As I said, it took a separate small electric unit to be able to get fast heat to the kitchen and there is maybe 40? of insulated PEX pipe between the heater and the sink. (The temp in the basement is generally around 60?.)

The Rheem unit was recommended by my plumber and is highly rated, so maybe my unit is just a lemon. ?But, I spoke with a plumber before installing the 7.5 gallon unit for the sink and he told me he installs a lot of small ?point of use? tanked units in house with tankless heaters, so my complaint can?t be unique to my heater. ?Overall, I like the fact that my house is very energy efficient, but I really miss the days when I could hop in the shower immediately and not have to worry about waiting for the water to warm up.?

Jim
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From jniolon at att.net  Fri Jan 28 15:35:28 2022
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 16:35:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer tire tube
References: <1Ubih77SDp.8PZKmsxPtqz.ref@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1Ubih77SDp.8PZKmsxPtqz@johns-desktop>

found I had a flat on my utility trailer tire.. inspection found a small cut in 
the sidewall... tire is nearly new and hate to have to replace it

Would it be safe and acceptable to put a tube in it to get some more life out 
of it    205/75-15 size

thanks
john
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From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jan 28 16:28:41 2022
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 18:28:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer tire tube
In-Reply-To: <1Ubih77SDp.8PZKmsxPtqz@johns-desktop>
References: <1Ubih77SDp.8PZKmsxPtqz.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1Ubih77SDp.8PZKmsxPtqz@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <OFBA770172.2D0B8FBA-ON852587D8.0080C30D-852587D8.0080F864@mail.megageek.com>

It would depend more on what size trailer and what weights it will be 
carrying.  If it small 4X8 trailer carrying lightweight stuff, you should 
be fine.

But if it's a large trailer and you are putting a lot of weight on it, 
then it's not worth it.

Also, if it is dual axle or not is important.



From:   "john niolon" <jniolon at att.net>
To:     "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date:   01/28/2022 17:36
Subject:        [Shop-talk] trailer tire tube
Sent by:        "Shop-talk" <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>



found I had a flat on my utility trailer tire.. inspection found a small 
cut in the sidewall... tire is nearly new and hate to have to replace it

Would it be safe and acceptable to put a tube in it to get some more life 
out of it    205/75-15 size
 
thanks
john
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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 17:30:50 2022
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:30:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was:
 tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <1224379374.3508318.1643375585364@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
 <2a3ddeec-3023-c6eb-a802-785e5c62f899@sackheads.org>
 <23662393-247F-4B20-8E85-93B21B18231B@gmail.com>
 <1224379374.3508318.1643375585364@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D4DD562D-BD7A-49E0-B307-1F863E75D696@gmail.com>

Thanks, Dave.  That is an interesting way to put it.  I think I will time the heat and try contacting Rheem.  You never know.

> On Jan 28, 2022, at 8:13 AM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
> 
> Jim, your plumber may have made that recommendation based on reliability and not necessarily on performance.  
> 
> A coworker of mine installed a tankless heater because he has a wife and two daughters who would regularly empty the 30 gallon tank when showering.  He noted that the heater would delay heating water to the point that the front-loading washer would never draw water long enough to get it to kick in.  My speculation is that the manufacturer programmed in a delay to confirm a good, solid hot water demand in pursuit of their energy rating.
> 
> 15 feet of 1/2 inch tubing will hold about .05 gallons of water.  Most shower heads deliver 1 GPM.  That means it should take about 3 seconds to purge the cold water out of the line.  OK, 6 seconds if you are drawing a mix of hot and cold.  Several minutes is probably the heater control.  Maybe the flow switch is not sensitive enough to detect the flow at that level.
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com>
> To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thu, Jan 27, 2022 8:30 pm
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was: tankless/instant water heater
> 
> I held off answering Jimmie?s question below until the original topic seemed to have played out.  With that now apparently done, here is my experience with full house tankless heaters.
> 
> I have two tankless heaters, one in my garage - which has a small living area adjacent to it and two bedrooms and a bathroom above it - and one in my house.  Both are propane fired, as I live in a fairly rural area and natural gas isn?t available here. The garage unit is a combination DHW and hydronic heating unit (I have heated floors in the shop and downstairs living area) made by a company called Laars.  https://www.laars.com <https://www.laars.com/>. I have no complaints with that unit and love having heated floors in the garage.  (I ran the lines before the concrete was poured.)
> 
> My house is a very small (780 sq ft) ranch house and has a Rheem tankless unit (RTGH-900VLP-2) that was installed when the house was completely rebuilt (as in, new house built on the original foundation) three years ago. The shower is no more than 15ft from the heater, yet it takes several minutes to get hot water to the shower.  It was instantaneous when we had a conventional tank unit, but my community requires new construction to meet specific energy efficiency standards that required us to use a tankless unit.  I complained about the heat when the unit was new and an inspection revealed a faulty mixing valve, which was replaced under warranty.  I was still unhappy and Rheem told me how to bypass the preset maximum temperature of 120? and it is better with the unit set to 130? or 140?, but I have a hard time believing that should be necessary.  As I said, it took a separate small electric unit to be able to get fast heat to the kitchen and there is maybe 40? of insulated PEX pipe between the heater and the sink. (The temp in the basement is generally around 60?.)
> 
> The Rheem unit was recommended by my plumber and is highly rated, so maybe my unit is just a lemon.  But, I spoke with a plumber before installing the 7.5 gallon unit for the sink and he told me he installs a lot of small ?point of use? tanked units in house with tankless heaters, so my complaint can?t be unique to my heater.  Overall, I like the fact that my house is very energy efficient, but I really miss the days when I could hop in the shower immediately and not have to worry about waiting for the water to warm up. 
> 
> Jim

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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 17:41:26 2022
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 18:41:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Whole house tankless heater experience. Was:
 tankless/instant water heater
In-Reply-To: <D4DD562D-BD7A-49E0-B307-1F863E75D696@gmail.com>
References: <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UbickM8cG.1ScZN3OsJa4@johns-desktop>
 <16F494C6-A6A2-4743-9A1C-8996238C89B2@gmail.com>
 <2a3ddeec-3023-c6eb-a802-785e5c62f899@sackheads.org>
 <23662393-247F-4B20-8E85-93B21B18231B@gmail.com>
 <1224379374.3508318.1643375585364@mail.yahoo.com>
 <D4DD562D-BD7A-49E0-B307-1F863E75D696@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5surDkUpaGmQAU3pFru5svS1=ZWuNNfMc2YDgo=N-ag4ybA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:31 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Dave.  That is an interesting way to put it.  I think I will time the heat and try contacting Rheem.  You never know.
>
> On Jan 28, 2022, at 8:13 AM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
>
> Jim, your plumber may have made that recommendation based on reliability and not necessarily on performance.
>
> A coworker of mine installed a tankless heater because he has a wife and two daughters who would regularly empty the 30 gallon tank when showering.  He noted that the heater would delay heating water to the point that the front-loading washer would never draw water long enough to get it to kick in.  My speculation is that the manufacturer programmed in a delay to confirm a good, solid hot water demand in pursuit of their energy rating.

Tankless water heaters have a minimum flow, not out of efficiency
concerns, but out of not cooking the heat exchanger.  They modulate
their output, but even at lowest fire, if there is insufficient flow,
they can boil the water in the exchanger, which tends to result in
sudden, dramatic failure, and boiling water being sprayed about.
People seem to think this is undesirable, so if the flow switch
doesn't detect enough flow, it won't allow the burner to fire.  And,
yes, lots of people complain about that when they try to run a device
with intermittent demand, like a dishwasher.

I agree that your unit shouldn't be working the way it appears to be,
and there's either something wrong with your unit (and your plumber,
for not wanting to fix the problem), the design of that model is crap,
or it's not suitable for the application (in which case, shame on the
plumber for selling it to you.)
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com