From eric at megageek.com Mon Nov 1 10:52:32 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:52:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Utility bodies for truck beds Message-ID: Groupthink- Does anyone here have experience with utility bodies and how to know which ones fit on what trucks? Or if they are interchangeable? I have a 2007 Dodge Ram 3500 dually with a long bed (8'). Many of the utility bodies are listed as 9'. Will they work? Is the distance between the cab and axle (and between wheels) the only real important measures? I'm looking to put on a used bed (there are quite a few around that are affordable.) but I don't know how to tell if they will work. Is there a table to cross reference? Or do you buy the body and 'fab up' any mounts? I'm getting to the limit of my budget on this project and I want to find affordable options. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjcora at icloud.com Mon Nov 1 18:16:38 2021 From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:16:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Utility bodies for truck beds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09CDF012-1C61-4468-A1E7-F3EFF8AE197A@icloud.com> I think that you?ve hit on the numbers that matter. Of course, if the person selling it knows what it came from, even better. Chances are you will end up needing to do some fab of spacers and/or brackets. Tom Coradeschi tjcora at icloud.com > On Nov 1, 2021, at 12:53 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > ?Groupthink- > > Does anyone here have experience with utility bodies and how to know which ones fit on what trucks? Or if they are interchangeable? > > I have a 2007 Dodge Ram 3500 dually with a long bed (8'). Many of the utility bodies are listed as 9'. Will they work? > > Is the distance between the cab and axle (and between wheels) the only real important measures? > > I'm looking to put on a used bed (there are quite a few around that are affordable.) but I don't know how to tell if they will work. > > Is there a table to cross reference? > > Or do you buy the body and 'fab up' any mounts? > > I'm getting to the limit of my budget on this project and I want to find affordable options. > > Thanks!_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jniolon at att.net Wed Nov 3 08:24:01 2021 From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 09:24:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] safety kleen model 60 parts washer References: <1UZ9nqQkFS.5fWKQ67Pmzg.ref@johns-desktop> Message-ID: <1UZ9nqQkFS.5fWKQ67Pmzg@johns-desktop> I've got an old Model 60 table top washer that I found in a divorce sale. It worked great for years but last time got no fluid thru brush.. seems the pump might be dead. I still have some troubleshooting to do. It has a 5 gallon tank under the wash sink and the pump sticks down thru the sink into the tank to pull fluid. Can't find parts or manual on the WWW. Wonder if anyone has a manual or experience in these units. Using Super Agitene cleaning solution and has worked great for years -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sk60.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 86863 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:48:01 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:48:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] safety kleen model 60 parts washer In-Reply-To: <1UZ9nqQkFS.5fWKQ67Pmzg@johns-desktop> References: <1UZ9nqQkFS.5fWKQ67Pmzg@johns-desktop> Message-ID: <6F68850A-73EA-43FE-AD09-A05AADF72AE6@gmail.com> > On Nov 3, 2021, at 09:24, john niolon wrote: > > ? > I've got an old Model 60 table top washer that I found in a divorce sale. It worked great for years but last time got no fluid thru brush.. seems the pump might be dead. > I still have some troubleshooting to do. It has a 5 gallon tank under the wash sink and the pump sticks down thru the sink into the tank to pull fluid. Can't find parts or manual > on the WWW. Wonder if anyone has a manual or experience in these units. Using Super Agitene cleaning solution and has worked great for years > Safety-Kleens stuff is usually pretty good (they lease it out?) I?d start with the basics, like fuse, wiring, switch. After that, it?s probably the pump; you should be able to find a direct replacement. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 1789alpine at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 08:39:16 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 10:39:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold Message-ID: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: And, a shot from the other side: As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? Thanks, Jim (and Sara) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Screen Shot 2021-11-08 at 10.27.00 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 1658996 bytes Desc: not available URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Mon Nov 8 09:05:29 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 10:05:29 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second CO detector. I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone to a faulty furnace. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: And, a shot from the other side: As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? Thanks, Jim (and Sara) _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bspidell at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 09:13:31 2021 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 08:13:31 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2a8210df-4ab8-24d0-57de-7c22b87e0382@comcast.net> Cast iron can be welded, but it's tricky, requires a welder with experience doing it and usually the piece needs careful preheating (I doubt you'll find a good welder who would even attempt it). Tell daughter and her boyfriend the manifold/furnace has to be fixed--or replaced if not possible--before any other 'upgrades' to the house. If you're able, offer some financial assistance to get it done. In some areas, (I think) the guy who applied the 'goop' could be prosecuted if the inevitable happens. re: "She has a CO2 detector in the basement"--presume you mean 'CO,' or carbon monoxide, which is what could kill your daughter. Bob On 11/8/2021 7:39 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house > with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to > natural gas. ?It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it > for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts > of the house. ?However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold > that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. > ?Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting > with the overall exhaust. > > > > You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. ?Here is a > side view: > > > > The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he > really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. > However, here is a shot just below the goop: > > > > And, a shot from the other side: > > > > As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is > totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in > danger of falling off. ?In theory, it could be removed and taken > someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a > royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. ?She has a CO2 detector in > the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to > do more. ??More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet > and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about > treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it > to get them by for a season or two. ?What are the group's thoughts on > something like JB Weld High Heat putty > (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1 > ) > and/or their high heat wrap > (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? > > Thanks, > Jim (and Sara) > > > > > From 1789alpine at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 09:17:49 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 11:17:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> Message-ID: <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss it. > On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne wrote: > > Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second CO detector. > > I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. > > The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone to a faulty furnace. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com > wrote: > > ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. > > > > You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: > > > > The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: > > > > And, a shot from the other side: > > > > As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1 ) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t )? > > Thanks, > Jim (and Sara) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Mon Nov 8 09:28:13 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 10:28:13 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> References: <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4192D374-3E4C-4AAB-A88F-33A5FD7C838F@icloud.com> Can it be welded in place? There is no future reason to remove it. Only downside is if the welding doesn?t go well they will need to replace the whole thing. That goop the tech put on may be a bitch to take off for welding. Either way, it would be good to do some research to see what a good replacement would be for down the road. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 8, 2021, at 10:17 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: ?Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss it. > On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne wrote: > > Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second CO detector. > > I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. > > The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone to a faulty furnace. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. > > > > You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: > > > > The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: > > > > And, a shot from the other side: > > > > As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? > > Thanks, > Jim (and Sara) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Mon Nov 8 09:29:51 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:29:51 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> Message-ID: It needs to be replaced, but in the interim an important question is whether the crack closes up when it gets hot. I had a split manifold on a car that was not visible. I could clearly hear it when cold, but closed up as the manifold heated up and expanded. When it was finally replace, the crack was clearly visible. This, being and older home, is likely somewhat drafty. This is not bad right now. Regardless, if they continue to use it, additional CO monitors would definitely be a good idea. I suspect high temp goo might work out, but prepare for the worst. Jack From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 8:18 AM To: Pat Horne Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss it. On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne > wrote: Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second CO detector. I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone to a faulty furnace. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: And, a shot from the other side: As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? Thanks, Jim (and Sara) _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 1789alpine at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 09:59:49 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 11:59:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC38C26-5A4B-4A61-BAD0-B55838775E17@gmail.com> Thanks, guys. (And, thanks for the ?CO? correction. I guess just too much talk about CO2 in the news these days.) I will confirm this tonight, but my guess is that there is no one around who could handle the job if my brother-in-law doesn?t know anyone. (He is a local with deep, deep ties to the area.) I will discuss it again with him and my daughter and we?ll try to find a safe solution. If I can, I will persuade them to just bite the bullet and replace it. Truth be told, it is really the boyfriend?s house and he has spent a small fortune on things that show, like the kitchen and bathrooms, but been more stingy with something like this that he can?t see. I may just have to try to convince him that this is more important and, failing that, patch it and then keep working on him. Jim > On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > > It needs to be replaced, but in the interim an important question is whether the crack closes up when it gets hot. I had a split manifold on a car that was not visible. I could clearly hear it when cold, but closed up as the manifold heated up and expanded. When it was finally replace, the crack was clearly visible. > > This, being and older home, is likely somewhat drafty. This is not bad right now. Regardless, if they continue to use it, additional CO monitors would definitely be a good idea. > > I suspect high temp goo might work out, but prepare for the worst. > > Jack > > From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Jim Stone > Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 8:18 AM > To: Pat Horne > Cc: Shop Talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold > > Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss it. > > > On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne > wrote: > > Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second CO detector. > > I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. > > The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone to a faulty furnace. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com > wrote: > > ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. > > > > You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: > > > > The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: > > > > And, a shot from the other side: > > > > As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1 ) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t )? > > Thanks, > Jim (and Sara) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Mon Nov 8 10:06:34 2021 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (neiljsherry at talktalk.net) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 17:06:34 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <8CC38C26-5A4B-4A61-BAD0-B55838775E17@gmail.com> References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> <8CC38C26-5A4B-4A61-BAD0-B55838775E17@gmail.com> Message-ID: Any chance of fabricating a complete replacement in steel? Would not last as long, but if thick enough would do the job... On 8 November 2021 16:59:49 GMT, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: >Thanks, guys. (And, thanks for the ?CO? correction. I guess just too much talk about CO2 in the news these days.) > >I will confirm this tonight, but my guess is that there is no one around who could handle the job if my brother-in-law doesn?t know anyone. (He is a local with deep, deep ties to the area.) I will discuss it again with him and my daughter and we?ll try to find a safe solution. If I can, I will persuade them to just bite the bullet and replace it. Truth be told, it is really the boyfriend?s house and he has spent a small fortune on things that show, like the kitchen and bathrooms, but been more stingy with something like this that he can?t see. I may just have to try to convince him that this is more important and, failing that, patch it and then keep working on him. > >Jim > >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: >> >> It needs to be replaced, but in the interim an important question is whether the crack closes up when it gets hot. I had a split manifold on a car that was not visible. I could clearly hear it when cold, but closed up as the manifold heated up and expanded. When it was finally replace, the crack was clearly visible. >> >> This, being and older home, is likely somewhat drafty. This is not bad right now. Regardless, if they continue to use it, additional CO monitors would definitely be a good idea. >> >> I suspect high temp goo might work out, but prepare for the worst. >> >> Jack >> >> From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Jim Stone >> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 8:18 AM >> To: Pat Horne >> Cc: Shop Talk >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold >> >> Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss it. >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne > wrote: >> >> Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second CO detector. >> >> I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. >> >> The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone to a faulty furnace. >> >> Peace, >> Pat >> >> Pat Horne >> We support Habitat for Humanity >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com > wrote: >> >> ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. >> >> >> >> You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: >> >> >> >> The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: >> >> >> >> And, a shot from the other side: >> >> >> >> As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1 ) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t )? >> >> Thanks, >> Jim (and Sara) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at megageek.com Mon Nov 8 11:05:12 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:05:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: As someone that lives in a 'turn of 2 centuries' house (built in the 1700s), I can tell you they just need to bite the bullet and replace the unit. No matter what the cost, house fire, and/or poison gases are NOTHING to gamble with. I'm a guy that will hang off a ladder with a running chainsaw, and I wouldn't take a chance with either of these. Don't forget, a modern unit will be FAR more efficient and could pay for itself in short time. But replacing one or both loved ones is not an option. There may also be tax credits or incentive programs to offset the costs of the upgrades. Have them research around (but hurry.) Their oil/gas provider, local tax office, internet searches. They may be surprised at the availability of assistance for the upgrade. As for repairing it, to properly weld cast iron, you need to slowly preheat and cool down a piece. This means it would NEED to be removed so it can be placed in an oven. Then if it wasn't really flat, it could crack on reinstallation. Frankly, before I tried to weld it, I would remove it and try to recast a new piece. Watch some videos on do it yourself cast iron. Not outside of the realm of a DIYer. Very little specialize equipment required. Maybe you can find someone local to do it. That way you just 'glue' the pieces together to make a mold of it and recast it. This isn't a high performance part, so it should be possible. A little machining afterwards to the mating surfaces and you are good to go. But I would only do that if replacement was completely unavailable until 6 or more months. Moose From: Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> To: Shop Talk Date: 11/08/2021 10:54 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold Sent by: "Shop-talk" My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: And, a shot from the other side: As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty ( https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1 ) and/or their high heat wrap ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? Thanks, Jim (and Sara) [attachment "Screen Shot 2021-11-08 at 10.19.11 AM.png" deleted by Eric Petrevich/Megageek] [attachment "Screen Shot 2021-11-08 at 10.12.34 AM.png" deleted by Eric Petrevich/Megageek] [attachment "Screen Shot 2021-11-08 at 10.13.09 AM.png" deleted by Eric Petrevich/Megageek] [attachment "Screen Shot 2021-11-08 at 10.27.00 AM.png" deleted by Eric Petrevich/Megageek] _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Mon Nov 8 11:33:09 2021 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:33:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: <8CC38C26-5A4B-4A61-BAD0-B55838775E17@gmail.com> References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> <8CC38C26-5A4B-4A61-BAD0-B55838775E17@gmail.com> Message-ID: It might also be helpful to have a CO detector rather than just an alarm, like the below that allows ppm of CO to be monitored for trends, changes as it heats and expands, etc. It's a shame the AirThings detectors don't have CO since they also monitor particulate matter, CO2, VOC and radon. https://www.trutechtools.com/Defender-CA6150 Best, Ian On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 12:00 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks, guys. (And, thanks for the ?CO? correction. I guess just too > much talk about CO2 in the news these days.) > > I will confirm this tonight, but my guess is that there is no one around > who could handle the job if my brother-in-law doesn?t know anyone. (He is > a local with deep, deep ties to the area.) I will discuss it again with > him and my daughter and we?ll try to find a safe solution. If I can, I > will persuade them to just bite the bullet and replace it. Truth be told, > it is really the boyfriend?s house and he has spent a small fortune on > things that show, like the kitchen and bathrooms, but been more stingy with > something like this that he can?t see. I may just have to try to convince > him that this is more important and, failing that, patch it and then keep > working on him. > > Jim > > On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > > It needs to be replaced, but in the interim an important question is > whether the crack closes up when it gets hot. I had a split manifold on a > car that was not visible. I could clearly hear it when cold, but closed up > as the manifold heated up and expanded. When it was finally replace, the > crack was clearly visible. > > This, being and older home, is likely somewhat drafty. This is not bad > right now. Regardless, if they continue to use it, additional CO monitors > would definitely be a good idea. > > I suspect high temp goo might work out, but prepare for the worst. > > Jack > > *From:* Shop-talk *On Behalf Of *Jim > Stone > *Sent:* Monday, November 8, 2021 8:18 AM > *To:* Pat Horne > *Cc:* Shop Talk > *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold > > Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The > furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my > brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local > trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for > welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to > replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who > generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a > while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in > it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss > it. > > > On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne wrote: > > Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second > CO detector. > > I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos > around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. > > The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone > to a faulty furnace. > > Peace, > > Pat > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > > On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house > with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural > gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as > possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. > However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked > pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some > screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. > > > > You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side > view: > > > > The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he > really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, > here is a shot just below the goop: > > > > And, a shot from the other side: > > > > As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is > totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of > falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does > cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not > guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will > be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be > trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system > immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive > exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. > What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty ( > https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1) > and/or their high heat wrap ( > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? > > Thanks, > Jim (and Sara) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Mon Nov 8 11:51:42 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:51:42 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Measuring ozone Message-ID: <199706B2-B1DD-4FE2-AEEB-A1211098B544@icloud.com> I need an inexpensive way to measure ozone concentration from time to time. I have an ozone generator that I?d like to use to deodorize a vacation rental after guests check out who have done rather odorous cooking, as well as attempting some level of sterilization. I can put together an inexpensive meter using available components but I have no way to calibrate it. None of the local environmental companies either don?t mess with ozone, they can?t be bothered or charge an arm & a leg. Thanks in advance. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity From berry at kerch.com Mon Nov 8 11:58:08 2021 From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 10:58:08 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> <8CC38C26-5A4B-4A61-BAD0-B55838775E17@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think cast iron can be brazed much more easily than welded. I had it done once on an old car?s exhaust manifold for which a replacement was either unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Worked fine for me. On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 10:33 AM Ian McFetridge wrote: > It might also be helpful to have a CO detector rather than just an alarm, > like the below that allows ppm of CO to be monitored for trends, changes as > it heats and expands, etc. It's a shame the AirThings detectors don't have > CO since they also monitor particulate matter, CO2, VOC and radon. > https://www.trutechtools.com/Defender-CA6150 > > Best, > Ian > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 12:00 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks, guys. (And, thanks for the ?CO? correction. I guess just too >> much talk about CO2 in the news these days.) >> >> I will confirm this tonight, but my guess is that there is no one around >> who could handle the job if my brother-in-law doesn?t know anyone. (He is >> a local with deep, deep ties to the area.) I will discuss it again with >> him and my daughter and we?ll try to find a safe solution. If I can, I >> will persuade them to just bite the bullet and replace it. Truth be told, >> it is really the boyfriend?s house and he has spent a small fortune on >> things that show, like the kitchen and bathrooms, but been more stingy with >> something like this that he can?t see. I may just have to try to convince >> him that this is more important and, failing that, patch it and then keep >> working on him. >> >> Jim >> >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: >> >> It needs to be replaced, but in the interim an important question is >> whether the crack closes up when it gets hot. I had a split manifold on a >> car that was not visible. I could clearly hear it when cold, but closed up >> as the manifold heated up and expanded. When it was finally replace, the >> crack was clearly visible. >> >> This, being and older home, is likely somewhat drafty. This is not bad >> right now. Regardless, if they continue to use it, additional CO monitors >> would definitely be a good idea. >> >> I suspect high temp goo might work out, but prepare for the worst. >> >> Jack >> >> *From:* Shop-talk *On Behalf Of *Jim >> Stone >> *Sent:* Monday, November 8, 2021 8:18 AM >> *To:* Pat Horne >> *Cc:* Shop Talk >> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold >> >> Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The >> furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my >> brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local >> trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for >> welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to >> replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who >> generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a >> while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in >> it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss >> it. >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne wrote: >> >> Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a >> second CO detector. >> >> I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your >> photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. >> >> The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone >> to a faulty furnace. >> >> Peace, >> >> Pat >> Pat Horne >> We support Habitat for Humanity >> >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: >> ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house >> with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural >> gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as >> possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. >> However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked >> pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some >> screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. >> >> >> >> You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side >> view: >> >> >> >> The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he >> really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, >> here is a shot just below the goop: >> >> >> >> And, a shot from the other side: >> >> >> >> As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is >> totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of >> falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does >> cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not >> guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will >> be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be >> trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system >> immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive >> exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. >> What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty ( >> https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1) >> and/or their high heat wrap ( >> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t)? >> >> Thanks, >> Jim (and Sara) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/berry at kerch.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 1789alpine at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 16:50:46 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 18:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold In-Reply-To: References: <00B291EA-5D97-4819-A5B8-DBF0653FB1AE@gmail.com> <60D7415C-08E0-47BD-96E1-A84BFBAEF2A0@icloud.com> <733DA028-9925-4F2E-AD5C-D53D30088803@gmail.com> <8CC38C26-5A4B-4A61-BAD0-B55838775E17@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2894EC63-F0FB-422A-B821-BB61BB45F1DB@gmail.com> Thanks, guys. I am going to work on getting them to deal with this properly and get a new furnace. And, given current supply and labor shortages, I?ll also do what I can to patch the system for now. > On Nov 8, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Berry Kercheval wrote: > > I think cast iron can be brazed much more easily than welded. I had it done once on an old car?s exhaust manifold for which a replacement was either unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Worked fine for me. > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 10:33 AM Ian McFetridge > wrote: > It might also be helpful to have a CO detector rather than just an alarm, like the below that allows ppm of CO to be monitored for trends, changes as it heats and expands, etc. It's a shame the AirThings detectors don't have CO since they also monitor particulate matter, CO2, VOC and radon. > https://www.trutechtools.com/Defender-CA6150 > > Best, > Ian > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 12:00 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com > wrote: > Thanks, guys. (And, thanks for the ?CO? correction. I guess just too much talk about CO2 in the news these days.) > > I will confirm this tonight, but my guess is that there is no one around who could handle the job if my brother-in-law doesn?t know anyone. (He is a local with deep, deep ties to the area.) I will discuss it again with him and my daughter and we?ll try to find a safe solution. If I can, I will persuade them to just bite the bullet and replace it. Truth be told, it is really the boyfriend?s house and he has spent a small fortune on things that show, like the kitchen and bathrooms, but been more stingy with something like this that he can?t see. I may just have to try to convince him that this is more important and, failing that, patch it and then keep working on him. > > Jim > >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Jack Brooks > wrote: >> >> It needs to be replaced, but in the interim an important question is whether the crack closes up when it gets hot. I had a split manifold on a car that was not visible. I could clearly hear it when cold, but closed up as the manifold heated up and expanded. When it was finally replace, the crack was clearly visible. >> >> This, being and older home, is likely somewhat drafty. This is not bad right now. Regardless, if they continue to use it, additional CO monitors would definitely be a good idea. >> >> I suspect high temp goo might work out, but prepare for the worst. >> >> Jack >> >> From: Shop-talk > On Behalf Of Jim Stone >> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 8:18 AM >> To: Pat Horne > >> Cc: Shop Talk > >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ancient furnace with cracked manifold >> >> Thanks, Pat. You are correct that a replacement is unavailable. The furnace is just too old. As for having it welded, I should add that my brother-in-law - who lives nearby and is an engineer with tons of local trade contacts - looked at it and concluded that trying to remove it for welding was not a good option. Surprisingly, he did not tell her to replace the system immediately, which was surprising as he is someone who generally errs on the side of caution in matters like this. It has been a while since he looked at it (they have owned if for a year but not lived in it do to other extensive renovations) but I will also call him to discuss it. >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Pat Horne > wrote: >> >> Jim, you hit on most of what I was thinking. At a MINIMUM I?d add a second CO detector. >> >> I assume a replacement manifold is unavailable. You might take your photos around to some welders to get their opinions & prices. >> >> The cost of repairs or replacement are nowhere as dear as losing someone to a faulty furnace. >> >> Peace, >> Pat >> >> Pat Horne >> We support Habitat for Humanity >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com > wrote: >> >> ?My daughter and her boyfriend have bought a turn of the century house with an ancient coal-fired furnace that was long ago converted to natural gas. It works fine and they?d like to put off replacing it for as long as possible while they invest their money in other parts of the house. However, the furnace has a cast iron exhaust manifold that is cracked pretty badly and it scares the hell out of me. Following are some screenshots from a video she sent me, starting with the overall exhaust. >> >> >> >> You can see the top of the manifold in the lower right. Here is a side view: >> >> >> >> The orange goop was applied by a furnace tech they hired, who said he really shouldn?t have touched it at all but did what he could.l. However, here is a shot just below the goop: >> >> >> >> And, a shot from the other side: >> >> >> >> As you can see - assuming the photos come through - the manifold is totally shot, although it feels solid and doesn?t appear to be in danger of falling off. In theory, it could be removed and taken someplace that does cast iron welding, but I suspect that would be a royal pain and not guaranteed to succeed. She has a CO2 detector in the basement, but I will be visiting her next week and want to try to do more. ?More? might be trying to convince them to bite the bullet and replace the system immediately, but I have also thought about treating it like an automotive exhaust system and trying to patch it to get them by for a season or two. What are the group's thoughts on something like JB Weld High Heat putty (https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8297-HighHeat-Degree/dp/B007PP26RI/ref=pd_bxgy_2/138-6104268-8394138?pd_rd_w=nQ3PU&pf_rd_p=c64372fa-c41c-422e-990d-9e034f73989b&pf_rd_r=2F076DNFFJBZ1G9PK3TY&pd_rd_r=623d1e00-f712-4380-897c-474fe9ee6337&pd_rd_wg=1YSqH&pd_rd_i=B007PP26RI&psc=1 ) and/or their high heat wrap (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N582CBY/ref=emc_b_5_t )? >> >> Thanks, >> Jim (and Sara) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/berry at kerch.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lee at automate-it.com Mon Nov 8 18:36:13 2021 From: lee at automate-it.com (lee at automate-it.com) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 19:36:13 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Measuring ozone In-Reply-To: <199706B2-B1DD-4FE2-AEEB-A1211098B544@icloud.com> References: <199706B2-B1DD-4FE2-AEEB-A1211098B544@icloud.com> Message-ID: Pat, It's a tough question - if you've got $XX,XXX then you can get a great environmental-lab quality monitor, and it will work well, accurately, for a long time. Like this one from Thermo-Fisher https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/49IQ. But I know that's not in the plan. For $100+ it looks like you can get this Chinese option - reviews are not too bad, but who knows? https://usa.banggood.com/PM2_5-O3-Ozone-Detector-TVOC-Air-Quality-Tester-USB-Instrument-2_8-LCD-Screen-Carbon-Dioxide-Formaldehyde-Dust-Haze-Meter-p-1710079.html But since I'm a chemist with access to ACS publications, I've attached a paper from Journal of Chemical Education (2005), describing how to set up a lab experiment for undergrad students to make this measurement. Not expensive if you already have a lab set up - but will likely cost you a lot more than the Chinese monitor just to put together all the reagents and equipment. Still, it may provide enough info to give you some ideas about how to go about doing this. So, enjoy! - Lee There's a relatively inexpensive On 2021-11-08 12:51, Pat Horne wrote: > I need an inexpensive way to measure ozone concentration from time to > time. > > I have an ozone generator that I?d like to use to deodorize a vacation > rental after guests check out who have done rather odorous cooking, as > well as attempting some level of sterilization. > > I can put together an inexpensive meter using available components but > I have no way to calibrate it. None of the local environmental > companies either don?t mess with ozone, they can?t be bothered or > charge an arm & a leg. > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ed082p282.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 98110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alfuller194 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 19:56:20 2021 From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (Al Fuller) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 21:56:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Measuring ozone In-Reply-To: <199706B2-B1DD-4FE2-AEEB-A1211098B544@icloud.com> References: <199706B2-B1DD-4FE2-AEEB-A1211098B544@icloud.com> Message-ID: Pat, have you considered making one? A raspberry pi or Arduino base with an inexpensive sending might do the trick. ________________ Best Regards, Al Fuller On Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 1:51 PM Pat Horne wrote: > I need an inexpensive way to measure ozone concentration from time to > time. > > I have an ozone generator that I?d like to use to deodorize a vacation > rental after guests check out who have done rather odorous cooking, as well > as attempting some level of sterilization. > > I can put together an inexpensive meter using available components but I > have no way to calibrate it. None of the local environmental companies > either don?t mess with ozone, they can?t be bothered or charge an arm & a > leg. > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Tue Nov 9 20:07:32 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 21:07:32 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Measuring ozone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Al, That?s what I planned to do but it will need calibration or at least verification. I don?t have a good handle as to how accurate the sensors are to the published specs. I suppose I could purchase a second sensor from a different manufacturer & compare the readings. If they come close to matching it should be close enough to being ?Calibrated ?. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 9, 2021, at 8:56 PM, Al Fuller wrote: ? Pat, have you considered making one? A raspberry pi or Arduino base with an inexpensive sending might do the trick. ________________ Best Regards, Al Fuller On Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 1:51 PM Pat Horne wrote: > I need an inexpensive way to measure ozone concentration from time to time. > > I have an ozone generator that I?d like to use to deodorize a vacation rental after guests check out who have done rather odorous cooking, as well as attempting some level of sterilization. > > I can put together an inexpensive meter using available components but I have no way to calibrate it. None of the local environmental companies either don?t mess with ozone, they can?t be bothered or charge an arm & a leg. > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 02:57:20 2021 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:57:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Measuring ozone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It may not be as important to be accurate as it is to be repeatable. If the machine is working and you get a reading, then as long as you get the same reading, you could assume the machine is working at the same level. On Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 22:10 Pat Horne wrote: > Al, > > That?s what I planned to do but it will need calibration or at least > verification. I don?t have a good handle as to how accurate the sensors are > to the published specs. > > I suppose I could purchase a second sensor from a different manufacturer & > compare the readings. If they come close to matching it should be close > enough to being ?Calibrated ?. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Nov 9, 2021, at 8:56 PM, Al Fuller wrote: > > ? > Pat, have you considered making one? A raspberry pi or Arduino base with > an inexpensive sending might do the trick. > > ________________ > Best Regards, > Al Fuller > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 1:51 PM Pat Horne wrote: > >> I need an inexpensive way to measure ozone concentration from time to >> time. >> >> I have an ozone generator that I?d like to use to deodorize a vacation >> rental after guests check out who have done rather odorous cooking, as well >> as attempting some level of sterilization. >> >> I can put together an inexpensive meter using available components but I >> have no way to calibrate it. None of the local environmental companies >> either don?t mess with ozone, they can?t be bothered or charge an arm & a >> leg. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Peace, >> Pat >> >> Pat Horne >> We support Habitat for Humanity >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejrussell61 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 17:15:13 2021 From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) Message-ID: Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer there. Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw up). -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Wed Nov 10 17:50:58 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:50:58 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric, there is a device that is used mainly in telecom/networking that will help you find the problem. Check out the Klein vdv500-820. It's in the $65 range, but there are cheaper ones down below $20 from china. The Klein unit usually has a stronger signal than the Chinese units but since you probably won't have much use for it in the future, so the cheaper ones may be fine for you. There are two alligator clips on it. Make sure all the cargo lights are off & connect one clip to the wire that is dead & the other one to ground. You should be able to follow the wire back to the problem. For the tone generator to work well, the circuit needs to have no load on the circuit. By this I mean all the lights & other loads like the TPMS booster need to be disconnected. The cable tester contains a continuity tester mode so you can verify that all the loads have been removed. Do a search for the Klein unit on Amazon. There is a video there that shows how the unit is used, but not in depth. How are you verifying that the fuses are good? If you are just looking at them, they may still be bad or making a poor connection. Use a volt meter & measure voltage on both ends of the fuses to verify them. I can walk you through the troubleshooting if you need help. Peace, Pat On 11/10/2021 6:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: > Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has > me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. > > We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal > booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I > accidentally?shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a > small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for > the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in > the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near > the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power > converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. > > I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite > responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they > emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map > showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with > indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics > that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights > are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another > indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither > of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could > locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome > forums but have not been able to find an answer there. > > Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace > where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to > find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. > > I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it > enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to > rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. > As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - > everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without > cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I > know it did before my screw up). > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > -- We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejrussell61 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 18:11:24 2021 From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:11:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > How are you verifying that the fuses are good? If you are just looking at them, they may still be bad or making a poor connection. Use a volt meter & measure voltage on both ends of the fuses to verify them. Initially, I just pulled the likely fuses for a visual inspection. When that came up empty, I used my Horrible Fright ohm meter to confirm continuity between the two terminals of the fuses. I've swapped in known good fuses to no avail. I have checked (at least visually) every fuse I can locate. I am 99% certain there must be another fuse somewhere. If you have experience working on motorhomes you'll know anything is possible... Me no see video - link missing? > I can walk you through the troubleshooting if you need help. Yes, please - t y p e s l o w l y . . . EjR On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 8:01 PM Pat Horne wrote: > Here's a video of using the tool. Since you have only one wire, the other > clip should go to groud. > > Peace, > > Pat > On 11/10/2021 6:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: > > Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me > stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. > > We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal > booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted > a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a > few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three > fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under > the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the > motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse > anywhere. > > I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite responsive > & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they emailed me some > schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing the general > location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which circuit they > belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to my motorhome - > one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford panel by the > parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's > 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the > fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of > motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer there. > > Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace > where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find > out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. > > I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it > enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip > open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as > I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is > working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it > bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw > up). > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > _______________________________________________ > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > > -- > We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT > > -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alfuller194 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 18:21:59 2021 From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:21:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Measuring ozone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <045501d7d69a$864c6460$92e52d20$@gmail.com> Jeff has a pretty good point ? if you ?assume? the instrument is accurate at birth and the readings are consistent, you might just be OK. An additional thought: given the relatively low cost to make and the relatively high level of importance to you, you might want to make two [or more?] from the get-go. Then, you would have both a spare AND something to compare! ---------------- All the best, Al Fuller From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 4:57 AM To: Pat Horne Cc: Shop List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Measuring ozone It may not be as important to be accurate as it is to be repeatable. If the machine is working and you get a reading, then as long as you get the same reading, you could assume the machine is working at the same level. On Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 22:10 Pat Horne > wrote: Al, That?s what I planned to do but it will need calibration or at least verification. I don?t have a good handle as to how accurate the sensors are to the published specs. I suppose I could purchase a second sensor from a different manufacturer & compare the readings. If they come close to matching it should be close enough to being ?Calibrated ?. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 9, 2021, at 8:56 PM, Al Fuller > wrote: ? Pat, have you considered making one? A raspberry pi or Arduino base with an inexpensive sending might do the trick. ________________ Best Regards, Al Fuller On Mon, Nov 8, 2021, 1:51 PM Pat Horne > wrote: I need an inexpensive way to measure ozone concentration from time to time. I have an ozone generator that I?d like to use to deodorize a vacation rental after guests check out who have done rather odorous cooking, as well as attempting some level of sterilization. I can put together an inexpensive meter using available components but I have no way to calibrate it. None of the local environmental companies either don?t mess with ozone, they can?t be bothered or charge an arm & a leg. Thanks in advance. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at megageek.com Thu Nov 11 05:13:33 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 07:13:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric, There are devices (sometimes called 'tone generators' or similar) that are two parts. One piece you put on the wire, the other creates an audible tone as it gets anywhere close to the wire. You can use this as a means to follow the wire. One other possibility... is it possible that another bulb is burnt out and that is acting as a fuse? Maybe all the fuses are good? Do you have a multimeter to check the wiring? Just some thoughts. Moose From: Eric Russell To: Shop Talk Date: 11/10/2021 19:18 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) Sent by: "Shop-talk" Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer there. Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw up). -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbach at swiftrecruiters.com Thu Nov 11 06:12:22 2021 From: jbach at swiftrecruiters.com (John) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:12:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91336799-ba3a-6ab6-cad2-31eedb0f5a76@swiftrecruiters.com> How about a GFCI outlet that has tripped? On 11/10/2021 7:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: > Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has > me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. > > We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal > booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I > accidentally?shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a > small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for > the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in > the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near > the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power > converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. > > I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite > responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they > emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map > showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with > indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics > that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights > are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another > indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither > of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could > locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome > forums but have not been able to find an answer there. > > Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace > where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to > find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. > > I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it > enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to > rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. > As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - > everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without > cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I > know it did before my screw up). > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jbach at swiftrecruiters.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejrussell61 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 06:57:27 2021 From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:57:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: <91336799-ba3a-6ab6-cad2-31eedb0f5a76@swiftrecruiters.com> References: <91336799-ba3a-6ab6-cad2-31eedb0f5a76@swiftrecruiters.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the replies. It may be a week or more before I gather the energy to search for the fault again. I've already wasted two afternoons and have other more important things to do (getting ready to go racing in VRG's Turkey Bowl at Summit Point, WV). The idea of using a tone generating tool is interesting. Horrible Fright has a $25 version - I may give that a try. EjR On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:12 AM John wrote: > How about a GFCI outlet that has tripped? > > > On 11/10/2021 7:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: > > Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me > stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. > > We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal > booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted > a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a > few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three > fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under > the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the > motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse > anywhere. > > I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite responsive > & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they emailed me some > schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing the general > location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which circuit they > belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to my motorhome - > one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford panel by the > parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's > 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the > fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of > motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer there. > > Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace > where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find > out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. > > I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it > enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip > open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as > I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is > working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it > bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw > up). > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > _______________________________________________ > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jbach at swiftrecruiters.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com > > -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejrussell61 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 15:51:25 2021 From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:51:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: <91336799-ba3a-6ab6-cad2-31eedb0f5a76@swiftrecruiters.com> Message-ID: So, the blown fuse turned out to be an I-D-10-T issue. When I crawled up under the hood of the new (to us) motorhome to change the oil (they do not make this an easy task...) I noticed a box way over on the left side labeled "Battery Control Center (Fuses Inside)". And buried therein was fuse # F17 'Cargo Lights'. Which indeed was blown. Maybe Thor (the motorhome manufacturer) was trying to tell me to check there - but I clearly described the place I had checked was the Ford "Power Distribution Box". EjR On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:57 AM Eric Russell wrote: > Thanks for the replies. It may be a week or more before I gather the > energy to search for the fault again. I've already wasted two afternoons > and have other more important things to do (getting ready to go racing in > VRG's Turkey Bowl at Summit Point, WV). The idea of using a tone generating > tool is interesting. Horrible Fright has a $25 version - I may give that a > try. > > EjR > > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:12 AM John wrote: > >> How about a GFCI outlet that has tripped? >> >> >> On 11/10/2021 7:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: >> >> Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me >> stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. >> >> We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal >> booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted >> a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a >> few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three >> fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under >> the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the >> motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse >> anywhere. >> >> I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite >> responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they >> emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing >> the general location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which >> circuit they belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to >> my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford >> panel by the parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the >> converter's 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I >> checked all the fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up >> to a couple of motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer >> there. >> >> Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace >> where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find >> out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. >> >> I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it >> enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip >> open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as >> I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is >> working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it >> bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw >> up). >> >> -- >> Eric Russell >> Mebane, NC >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jbach at swiftrecruiters.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com >> >> > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejrussell61 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 15:59:50 2021 From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:59:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: <91336799-ba3a-6ab6-cad2-31eedb0f5a76@swiftrecruiters.com> Message-ID: Correction - the hidden in plain view fuse was labeled F31. That designation was never mentioned in any of my emails with Thor or their schematics. I do not know if this part was installed by Thor or some aftermarket modification. EjR On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:51 PM Eric Russell wrote: > So, the blown fuse turned out to be an I-D-10-T issue. When I crawled up > under the hood of the new (to us) motorhome to change the oil (they do not > make this an easy task...) I noticed a box way over on the left side > labeled "Battery Control Center (Fuses Inside)". And buried therein was > fuse # F17 'Cargo Lights'. Which indeed was blown. Maybe Thor (the > motorhome manufacturer) was trying to tell me to check there - but I > clearly described the place I had checked was the Ford "Power Distribution > Box". > > EjR > > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:57 AM Eric Russell > wrote: > >> Thanks for the replies. It may be a week or more before I gather the >> energy to search for the fault again. I've already wasted two afternoons >> and have other more important things to do (getting ready to go racing in >> VRG's Turkey Bowl at Summit Point, WV). The idea of using a tone generating >> tool is interesting. Horrible Fright has a $25 version - I may give that a >> try. >> >> EjR >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:12 AM John wrote: >> >>> How about a GFCI outlet that has tripped? >>> >>> >>> On 11/10/2021 7:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: >>> >>> Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has >>> me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. >>> >>> We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal >>> booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted >>> a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a >>> few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three >>> fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under >>> the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the >>> motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse >>> anywhere. >>> >>> I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite >>> responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they >>> emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing >>> the general location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which >>> circuit they belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to >>> my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford >>> panel by the parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the >>> converter's 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I >>> checked all the fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up >>> to a couple of motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer >>> there. >>> >>> Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace >>> where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find >>> out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. >>> >>> I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it >>> enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip >>> open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as >>> I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is >>> working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it >>> bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw >>> up). >>> >>> -- >>> Eric Russell >>> Mebane, NC >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >>> >>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jbach at swiftrecruiters.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >>> http://autox.team.net/archive >>> >>> Unsubscribe/Manage: >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Eric Russell >> Mebane, NC >> > > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Thu Nov 11 16:25:03 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:25:03 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <847A9A25-B7B6-47EC-91D8-D7A6B5992241@icloud.com> Good to hear. Now you know of one more fuse box, hope there are no more hidden! Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 11, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Eric Russell wrote: ? So, the blown fuse turned out to be an I-D-10-T issue. When I crawled up under the hood of the new (to us) motorhome to change the oil (they do not make this an easy task...) I noticed a box way over on the left side labeled "Battery Control Center (Fuses Inside)". And buried therein was fuse # F17 'Cargo Lights'. Which indeed was blown. Maybe Thor (the motorhome manufacturer) was trying to tell me to check there - but I clearly described the place I had checked was the Ford "Power Distribution Box". EjR On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:57 AM Eric Russell wrote: > Thanks for the replies. It may be a week or more before I gather the energy to search for the fault again. I've already wasted two afternoons and have other more important things to do (getting ready to go racing in VRG's Turkey Bowl at Summit Point, WV). The idea of using a tone generating tool is interesting. Horrible Fright has a $25 version - I may give that a try. > > EjR > > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:12 AM John wrote: >> How about a GFCI outlet that has tripped? >> >> >> >> On 11/10/2021 7:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: >>> Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. >>> >>> We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. >>> >>> I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer there. >>> >>> Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. >>> >>> I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw up). >>> >>> -- >>> Eric Russell >>> Mebane, NC >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >>> >>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jbach at swiftrecruiters.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com >> > > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 16:27:20 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:27:20 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The bcc is an an RV Custom Products product, installed by the converter. Some of them were recalled, check that yours wasn?t, or the repair was done. Failure was total loss of power to anything not installed in the chassis maker?s factory. > On Nov 11, 2021, at 17:00, Eric Russell wrote: > > ? > Correction - the hidden in plain view fuse was labeled F31. That designation was never mentioned in any of my emails with Thor or their schematics. I do not know if this part was installed by Thor or some aftermarket modification. > > EjR > > >> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:51 PM Eric Russell wrote: >> So, the blown fuse turned out to be an I-D-10-T issue. When I crawled up under the hood of the new (to us) motorhome to change the oil (they do not make this an easy task...) I noticed a box way over on the left side labeled "Battery Control Center (Fuses Inside)". And buried therein was fuse # F17 'Cargo Lights'. Which indeed was blown. Maybe Thor (the motorhome manufacturer) was trying to tell me to check there - but I clearly described the place I had checked was the Ford "Power Distribution Box". >> >> EjR >> >> >>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:57 AM Eric Russell wrote: >>> Thanks for the replies. It may be a week or more before I gather the energy to search for the fault again. I've already wasted two afternoons and have other more important things to do (getting ready to go racing in VRG's Turkey Bowl at Summit Point, WV). The idea of using a tone generating tool is interesting. Horrible Fright has a $25 version - I may give that a try. >>> >>> EjR >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:12 AM John wrote: >>>> How about a GFCI outlet that has tripped? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/10/2021 7:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: >>>>> Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. >>>>> >>>>> We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer there. >>>>> >>>>> Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. >>>>> >>>>> I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw up). >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Eric Russell >>>>> Mebane, NC >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >>>>> >>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jbach at swiftrecruiters.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Eric Russell >>> Mebane, NC >> >> >> -- >> Eric Russell >> Mebane, NC > > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bk13 at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 11:23:56 2021 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 10:23:56 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e130b2e-a7f2-f0a9-2264-2d49d6afaf5c@earthlink.net> Saw this problem was solved, but wanted to add my feedback on a cable tracker that others have mentioned.? I have a 5+ year old version from Harbor Freight, but it is no longer on their site. This appears to be the current version: https://www.harborfreight.com/cable-tracker-94181.html I was doing some renovations and had wires in electrical outlook boxes that I couldn't identify.? With the power off, I connected the signal generator and was able to trace the signal with the wand through the plaster walls.? Both went to locations in the wall with no exposed box - bad work by someone decades ago.? The plaster walls were a challenge and I only got a weak signal, but was able to know it was ok to cap the wires. I also have about 10 phone jacks in my house, with some shorts in some of them.? The phone company installer initially just disconnected everything and reconnected only the two I was going to connect.? A few years later, I needed to move my DSL modem, so needed to activate a different jack.? Connected the signal generator and ran the wand over the disconnected wires at the central phone termination to find the one I needed to connect. Brian On 11/10/2021 4:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: > Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has > me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. > > We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal > booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I > accidentally?shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a > small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for > the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in > the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near > the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power > converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. > > I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite > responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they > emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map > showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with > indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics > that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights > are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another > indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither > of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could > locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome > forums but have not been able to find an answer there. > > Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace > where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to > find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. > > I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it > enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to > rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. > As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - > everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without > cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I > know it did before my screw up). > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Fri Nov 12 11:59:10 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 12:59:10 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding a Blown Fuse (Automotive) In-Reply-To: <2e130b2e-a7f2-f0a9-2264-2d49d6afaf5c@earthlink.net> References: <2e130b2e-a7f2-f0a9-2264-2d49d6afaf5c@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Yes, cable tracers are very handy, I have 4 of them in one form or another. I?ve found that there are two classes of tracers, cheap & not so cheap. Units under about $50 will work for most jobs, but the more expensive ones generally have greater sensitivity. 2 of mine are cheap, one is Fluke & one is part of a high dollar instrument for actually measuring the specifications of cables. One helpful way to increase the sensitivity of the tracer when tracing a pair of wired is to connect the signal generator to one of the conductors & the other test lead to ground rather than to both of the wires in the pair. This also helps when you have a short between the wires you are tracing. None of them work for finding cables in buried PVC conduit, even when right against the conduit. Fluke & Greenlee seem to be the best bang for the buck if you are going to use more than a few times. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:24 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: ? Saw this problem was solved, but wanted to add my feedback on a cable tracker that others have mentioned. I have a 5+ year old version from Harbor Freight, but it is no longer on their site. This appears to be the current version: https://www.harborfreight.com/cable-tracker-94181.html I was doing some renovations and had wires in electrical outlook boxes that I couldn't identify. With the power off, I connected the signal generator and was able to trace the signal with the wand through the plaster walls. Both went to locations in the wall with no exposed box - bad work by someone decades ago. The plaster walls were a challenge and I only got a weak signal, but was able to know it was ok to cap the wires. I also have about 10 phone jacks in my house, with some shorts in some of them. The phone company installer initially just disconnected everything and reconnected only the two I was going to connect. A few years later, I needed to move my DSL modem, so needed to activate a different jack. Connected the signal generator and ran the wand over the disconnected wires at the central phone termination to find the one I needed to connect. Brian On 11/10/2021 4:15 PM, Eric Russell wrote: > Oh wise & beneficent Shop Talkers - I've run into a situation that has me stymied. I need help locating a blown fuse in a motorhome. > > We recently bought a new (to us) motorhome. When installing the signal booster for a TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) I accidentally shorted a 12V wire in the cargo bay lights. There was a small spark (followed by a few swear words). I then went on a hunt for the blown fuse. There are three fuse panels in this motorhome. Two in the Ford chassis (F-53) - one under the hood and the other inside near the parking brake - plus one in the motorhome's 120V - 12V power converter. I could not find a blown fuse anywhere. > > I contacted the manufacturer (Thor) who has actually been quite responsive & has tried to help. After asking for my vehicle's VIN they emailed me some schematics (not actual wire diagrams but more a map showing the general location of outlets, switches, etc with indications of which circuit they belong to). There are two schematics that appear to apply to my motorhome - one indicates the cargo lights are connected to the Ford panel by the parking brake, another indicates they are in circuit #6 of the converter's 12V panel. Neither of those fuses are blown. While there I checked all the fuses I could locate - none were blown. I've also signed up to a couple of motorhome forums but have not been able to find an answer there. > > Finally - my plea for help - is there any device one can use to trace where a circuit originates? I've seen an electrician use a device to find out what outlet goes to which breaker in our house. > > I've followed the hot wire from the cargo bay light back to where it enters a wire harness along the motorhome's frame rail. I'm loath to rip open the wire harness trying to chase the wire further upstream. As far as I can tell there is nothing else in this circuit - everything else is working properly. Of course I can live without cargo bay lights but it bothers my OCD to have it not working (when I know it did before my screw up). > > -- > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at megageek.com Wed Nov 24 07:26:33 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:26:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating question (not so much shop related.) Message-ID: OK, this is more of a thought experiment, but here is the back story. My house is over 200 years old. 2 years ago I got vinyl siding and better insulation. REALLY good insulation. I have programmable thermostats (2 zones, downstairs and upstairs.) I keep them at about 64 degrees when I'm there. Turns out, the batteries in the upstairs one went dead and my upstairs zone hasn't turned on in over a year. HOWEVER, I really like how the house is. The downstairs is as warm as I want, and the upstairs is just slightly cooler, but it's perfect for sleeping. My question is, is it more efficient to have the upstairs not run heat? Or is the downstairs working much harder to compensate? I know there are lots of variables, but what do you guys think? Thanks! Moose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Wed Nov 24 07:40:13 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:40:13 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating question (not so much shop related.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My gut reaction is that it is slightly more efficient to run the system as you are. Hot air rises, so the downstairs unit heats the upstairs enough for your tastes. If you run the upstairs unit, it won?t keep the downstairs heat from coming up, so the upstairs unit probably won?t run much, only the short time when the upstairs temperature is low, which won?t be often. A related question is whether not running the upstairs unit is causing any long term damage to itself by not running. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 24, 2021, at 8:27 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote: ?OK, this is more of a thought experiment, but here is the back story. My house is over 200 years old. 2 years ago I got vinyl siding and better insulation. REALLY good insulation. I have programmable thermostats (2 zones, downstairs and upstairs.) I keep them at about 64 degrees when I'm there. Turns out, the batteries in the upstairs one went dead and my upstairs zone hasn't turned on in over a year. HOWEVER, I really like how the house is. The downstairs is as warm as I want, and the upstairs is just slightly cooler, but it's perfect for sleeping. My question is, is it more efficient to have the upstairs not run heat? Or is the downstairs working much harder to compensate? I know there are lots of variables, but what do you guys think? Thanks! Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirtbeard at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 07:44:14 2021 From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 06:44:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating question (not so much shop related.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Moose, As you say there are a lot of variables, but I believe that just running the lower unit will be more efficient: 1. The heat from the lower floors will tend to rise to the upper floors naturally, and the upper floors are acting like additional insulation for the furnace. Heating the upper floor directly would have the heat from there escape through the roof, while the heat from the bottom furnace escapes to the upper floors and then through the roof. 2. Having one furnace run longer than two furnaces running shorter will be more efficient. Furnaces need to heat-up all the duct work when they first cycle on. Having one furnace run longer cycles than two furnaces running shorter cycles should be more efficient and have less heat loss in the ducts. Disclaimer: I am not a heating contractor and am just speaking on information for which I am aware. best, doug On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 6:26 AM wrote: > OK, this is more of a thought experiment, but here is the back story. > > My house is over 200 years old. 2 years ago I got vinyl siding and > better insulation. REALLY good insulation. > I have programmable thermostats (2 zones, downstairs and upstairs.) > I keep them at about 64 degrees when I'm there. > Turns out, the batteries in the upstairs one went dead and my upstairs > zone hasn't turned on in over a year. > HOWEVER, I really like how the house is. The downstairs is as warm as I > want, and the upstairs is just slightly cooler, but it's perfect for > sleeping. > > My question is, is it more efficient to have the upstairs not run heat? > Or is the downstairs working much harder to compensate? > > I know there are lots of variables, but what do you guys think? > > Thanks! > > Moose_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Sat Nov 27 14:37:56 2021 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 13:37:56 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating question (not so much shop related.) (eric@megageek.com) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a23c34b-ba7e-2ae5-139f-05a80e79a0ee@threeboysfarm.com> I agree that what you are doing is most likely more efficient. One thing to watch for: I grew up in a house with 2 hot water heating loops; the original system downstairs and a second system upstairs in an addition: we took off half the roof and had two bedrooms and a bath added.? When my mom would be out of the house in the winter for a couple of weeks she would throttle each system back, to 45 or 50 degrees, in order to keep some flow and warmth so the pipes would not freeze.? Oops: the downstairs system heated the upstairs enough so that its zone did not turn on.? And the installer had run the upstairs piping above the insulation in the unmodified half of the house's attic space.? Yup, burst a pipe when she was away.? It ran for a week until a neighbor checked in and much of the house was trashed. Regards, Mark Miller 707-490-5834 markmiller at threeboysfarm.com On 11/24/2021 11:00 AM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: > > OK, this is more of a thought experiment, but here is the back story. > > My house is over 200 years old. 2 years ago I got vinyl siding and > better insulation. REALLY good insulation. > I have programmable thermostats (2 zones, downstairs and upstairs.) > I keep them at about 64 degrees when I'm there. > Turns out, the batteries in the upstairs one went dead and my upstairs > zone hasn't turned on in over a year. > HOWEVER, I really like how the house is. The downstairs is as warm as I > want, and the upstairs is just slightly cooler, but it's perfect for > sleeping. > > My question is, is it more efficient to have the upstairs not run heat? Or > is the downstairs working much harder to compensate? > > I know there are lots of variables, but what do you guys think? > > Thanks! > > Moose > From jmitch at snet.net Sun Nov 28 06:46:05 2021 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:46:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question References: Message-ID: My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable.? I was told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range.? The romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire.? I bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for a ground wire to connect.? For now, I bent the ground back on itself and used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet.? Is this ok or should I have just clipped it off?? Thanks for any expertise.? John Mitchell From patintexas at icloud.com Sun Nov 28 07:01:55 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:01:55 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should have 4 pins on the connector & a 4 conductor pigtail. The ground wire is for safety. If you develop a short or leakage current in the stove, the case of the stove & any metal pot on the stove could have 120v on it without the ground. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:46 AM, John Mitchell wrote: ?My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable. I was told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range. The romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire. I bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for a ground wire to connect. For now, I bent the ground back on itself and used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet. Is this ok or should I have just clipped it off? Thanks for any expertise. John Mitchell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com From tjcora at icloud.com Sun Nov 28 07:36:50 2021 From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 09:36:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, the code requirements, generally speaking, are that you be compliant with the version of the NEC a the time of the installation. You don?t need to change how your house, appliances, etc are wired as the NEC changes. If you?re installing a new stove, then that would be a different story. That notwithstanding, you need to get yourself a 4 prong receptacle and connector to correctly wire your 240V stove. Neutral and ground require their own connections. Or, you can revert back to what you had (again, assuming that this is not a new installation). You would also maybe want to confirm that this NEC change (latest version is the 2020 edition) is for real. https://www.nfpa.org/ will give you free access to NFPA 70, once you register for an account. ? Tom Coradeschi tjcora at icloud.com > On 28 Nov 2021, at 8:46 AM, John Mitchell wrote: > > My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable. I was told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range. The romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire. I bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for a ground wire to connect. For now, I bent the ground back on itself and used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet. Is this ok or should I have just clipped it off? Thanks for any expertise. John Mitchell > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com > From marka at maracing.com Sun Nov 28 07:53:42 2021 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 09:53:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet? I'm not sure code allows those any more but ?? You do wire them with the ground not connected. I'd have said that modern code would require a 4 prong 14-50 for 220vac connections where the device also wants 110vac. My recollection, which may well be wrong, is that the only modern 3 prong 220vac outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired with the two hots and the ground... Neutral not connected. And that those connections are only used when you have a device that uses only 220vac, not 220vac along with 110vac. I think it's a lot more common these days for any 220vac connection to use 4 prong outlets. Mark On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:46 AM John Mitchell wrote: > My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable. I was > told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range. The > romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire. I > bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for > a ground wire to connect. For now, I bent the ground back on itself and > used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet. Is > this ok or should I have just clipped it off? Thanks for any > expertise. John Mitchell > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmitch at snet.net Sun Nov 28 08:25:02 2021 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008131bc-5b07-49b8-a030-6ebd3438fbac@snet.net> That's what I will change it to. Thanks. ?Get BlueMail for Android ? On Nov 28, 2021, 9:54 AM, at 9:54 AM, Mark Andy wrote: >Howdy, > >Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet? I'm not sure code allows >those >any more but ?? You do wire them with the ground not connected. I'd >have >said that modern code would require a 4 prong 14-50 for 220vac >connections >where the device also wants 110vac. > >My recollection, which may well be wrong, is that the only modern 3 >prong >220vac outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired with the two hots and >the >ground... Neutral not connected. And that those connections are only >used >when you have a device that uses only 220vac, not 220vac along with >110vac. > >I think it's a lot more common these days for any 220vac connection to >use >4 prong outlets. > >Mark > >On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:46 AM John Mitchell wrote: > >> My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable. I was >> told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range. >The >> romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire. I >> bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place >for >> a ground wire to connect. For now, I bent the ground back on itself >and >> used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet. >Is >> this ok or should I have just clipped it off? Thanks for any >> expertise. John Mitchell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >http://autox.team.net/archive > >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmitch at snet.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 09:29:11 2021 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:29:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is correct. The four wires are needed for a device that uses both 115V and 230V. Otherwise, if there is an imbalance in current draw between the two hot legs (because one of them is also supplying current for the 115V circuit) the "return" will be on the ground wire instead of the neutral causing current flow there. And if you tie the neutral to ground anywhere except in the correct spot in your panel, you risk energising every ground wire in your house. This would be what we call "a bad thing". Appliances that only use 230V only need the two hot legs (and the ground) since there is no return path except the load wires. On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 9:54 AM Mark Andy wrote: > > Howdy, > > Guessing that you have a NEMA 10-50 outlet? I'm not sure code allows those any more but ?? You do wire them with the ground not connected. I'd have said that modern code would require a 4 prong 14-50 for 220vac connections where the device also wants 110vac. > > My recollection, which may well be wrong, is that the only modern 3 prong 220vac outlets (6-50) are supposed to be wired with the two hots and the ground... Neutral not connected. And that those connections are only used when you have a device that uses only 220vac, not 220vac along with 110vac. > > I think it's a lot more common these days for any 220vac connection to use 4 prong outlets. > > Mark > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:46 AM John Mitchell wrote: >> >> My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable. I was >> told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range. The >> romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire. I >> bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place for >> a ground wire to connect. For now, I bent the ground back on itself and >> used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the outlet. Is >> this ok or should I have just clipped it off? Thanks for any >> expertise. John Mitchell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sun Nov 28 10:05:18 2021 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:05:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0cbf0f8f-1807-5998-ca19-c153f56fc832@sackheads.org> Out of curiosity, is this also required for built-in devices like built-in cooktops and in-wall ovens? I'm certain my in-wall oven and cooktop are hard-wired to their own junction boxes so I'm wondering if I'll need to do the same if I were to ever replace one of them... On 11/28/21 08:46, John Mitchell wrote: > My electric stove has always been wired direct from the cable.? I was > told that code now requires an outlet and a pigtail on the range. The > romex cable has the 2 hot leads, a neutral and a bare ground wire.? I > bought a surface mount 50 amp 3 prong outlet, but there is no place > for a ground wire to connect.? For now, I bent the ground back on > itself and used the clamp to at least ground to the metal part of the > outlet.? Is this ok or should I have just clipped it off?? Thanks for > any expertise.? John Mitchell > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation? $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org > From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Sun Nov 28 16:47:30 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 23:47:30 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators Message-ID: Apologies if I've asked this before..... After using my blast cabinet today I was once again reminded that I need a bigger respirator. What I have is not big enough for my face. My CCAP is a "large", biggest I can get and it is not big enough. So, does anyone know of a good respirator with replaceable filters, that is a bigger unit? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Tue Nov 30 11:13:50 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 18:13:50 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. I didn't expect to hear much back but crickets? ouch ________________________________ From: Shop-talk on behalf of Tim . Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 5:47 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators Apologies if I've asked this before..... After using my blast cabinet today I was once again reminded that I need a bigger respirator. What I have is not big enough for my face. My CCAP is a "large", biggest I can get and it is not big enough. So, does anyone know of a good respirator with replaceable filters, that is a bigger unit? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Tue Nov 30 11:16:31 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 12:16:31 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92B53E33-7C2B-4833-AB37-62C22C1828ED@icloud.com> I?ll check w/a friend who may know. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 30, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Tim . wrote: ? Wow. I didn't expect to hear much back but crickets? ouch From: Shop-talk on behalf of Tim . Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 5:47 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators Apologies if I've asked this before..... After using my blast cabinet today I was once again reminded that I need a bigger respirator. What I have is not big enough for my face. My CCAP is a "large", biggest I can get and it is not big enough. So, does anyone know of a good respirator with replaceable filters, that is a bigger unit? Thanks _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Tue Nov 30 11:21:40 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 12:21:40 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25467DFC-1E97-4E61-83BC-EBDA2E862680@icloud.com> Tom recommended checking out MSC. He has a large head & they had something he could use. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Nov 30, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Tim . wrote: ? Wow. I didn't expect to hear much back but crickets? ouch From: Shop-talk on behalf of Tim . Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 5:47 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators Apologies if I've asked this before..... After using my blast cabinet today I was once again reminded that I need a bigger respirator. What I have is not big enough for my face. My CCAP is a "large", biggest I can get and it is not big enough. So, does anyone know of a good respirator with replaceable filters, that is a bigger unit? Thanks _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rkg at teleport.com Tue Nov 30 11:23:26 2021 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:23:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ee14381-3c49-89f7-7809-376c26520976@teleport.com> you've tried the 3m large half masks and they don't fit? I wonder if one of their full face solutions might work better or something. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/815734O/3m-reusable-respirators-product-catalog.pdf Good Luck, rkg (Richard George) On 11/30/2021 10:13 AM, Tim . wrote: > Wow. I didn't expect to hear much back but crickets? ouch > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Shop-talk on behalf of Tim > . > *Sent:* Sunday, November 28, 2021 5:47 PM > *To:* Shop Talk > *Subject:* [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators > Apologies if I've asked this before..... > > After using my blast cabinet today I was once again reminded that I > need a bigger respirator. What I have is not big enough for my face. > My CCAP is a "large", biggest I can get and it is not big enough. > > So, does anyone know of a good respirator with replaceable filters, > that is a bigger unit? > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rkg at teleport.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave1massey at cs.com Tue Nov 30 14:41:31 2021 From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 21:41:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <254984419.2145572.1638308491351@mail.yahoo.com> I think you stumped us all. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Tim . To: Shop Talk Sent: Tue, Nov 30, 2021 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators #yiv3289168609 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Wow. I didn't expect to hear much back but crickets? ouch From: Shop-talk on behalf of Tim . Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 5:47 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] XL or bigger respirators?Apologies if I've asked this before..... After using my blast cabinet today I was once again reminded that I need a bigger respirator. What I have is not big enough for my face. My CCAP is a "large", biggest I can get and it is not big enough.? So, does anyone know of a good respirator with replaceable filters, that is a bigger unit? Thanks_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: