From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon May  3 13:48:10 2021
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 14:48:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts annoyance
Message-ID: <0A45BD83-5C56-474D-A525-2C476DE48215@gmail.com>

I was working on a Ford e450 with a giant parasitic draw. (6+ amps , key off). Tracked the problem down to the pcm not shutting down, because the instrument panel computer didn?t tell it was in park. (Why does the pcm trust the transmission for everything but park?)  the failed part, a switch connected to the shift interlocking, is $20, but not available until ?June or July ?.  Turns out the switch actually works, but some knuckle head plugged it in wrong and bent the pins. I took the connector apart, straightened the pins enough to plug it in and then reassembled the connector.  Everything works, but it feels hackish. (Less hackish than the backup
Plan to solder it together, I guess?). 



From patintexas at icloud.com  Mon May  3 14:00:29 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 15:00:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts annoyance
In-Reply-To: <0A45BD83-5C56-474D-A525-2C476DE48215@gmail.com>
References: <0A45BD83-5C56-474D-A525-2C476DE48215@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1704DD5C-5970-4B74-B161-E18FA99BC9BD@icloud.com>

All the electronics that is going into vehicles is hard to deal with troubleshooting even with factory equipment. We need to more thoroughly train mechanics in these areas, & fast!

A friend of mine has a (I think) out of warranty 2017 F150 that works in fine except the radiator fan would always run @ full speed. The dealer couldn?t figure out what the problem was after 3 days so she bought a new truck so she wouldn?t have to listen to it. She was told that there were 27 computers in the truck & if any of them was bad it could cause odd problems not related to what that computer controlled. 
Glad you could troubleshoot the problem rather than shotgunning it as a lot of technicians would do. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 3, 2021, at 2:49 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

?I was working on a Ford e450 with a giant parasitic draw. (6+ amps , key off). Tracked the problem down to the pcm not shutting down, because the instrument panel computer didn?t tell it was in park. (Why does the pcm trust the transmission for everything but park?)  the failed part, a switch connected to the shift interlocking, is $20, but not available until ?June or July ?.  Turns out the switch actually works, but some knuckle head plugged it in wrong and bent the pins. I took the connector apart, straightened the pins enough to plug it in and then reassembled the connector.  Everything works, but it feels hackish. (Less hackish than the backup
Plan to solder it together, I guess?). 


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Mon May  3 15:50:10 2021
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 21:50:10 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts annoyance
In-Reply-To: <1704DD5C-5970-4B74-B161-E18FA99BC9BD@icloud.com>
References: <0A45BD83-5C56-474D-A525-2C476DE48215@gmail.com>
 <1704DD5C-5970-4B74-B161-E18FA99BC9BD@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB31401978FE2AD7EC2064ACDAA85B9@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Everybody must use the same computers.  27 computers was the same number the Subaru dealer used to try to push us into buying the extended warrantee.  

I?m thinking an chip on a board is considered a computer for warrantee purposes..........

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Pat Horne
Sent: Monday, May 3, 2021 1:00 PM
To: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts annoyance

All the electronics that is going into vehicles is hard to deal with troubleshooting even with factory equipment. We need to more thoroughly train mechanics in these areas, & fast!

A friend of mine has a (I think) out of warranty 2017 F150 that works in fine except the radiator fan would always run @ full speed. The dealer couldn?t figure out what the problem was after 3 days so she bought a new truck so she wouldn?t have to listen to it. She was told that there were 27 computers in the truck & if any of them was bad it could cause odd problems not related to what that computer controlled. 
Glad you could troubleshoot the problem rather than shotgunning it as a lot of technicians would do. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 3, 2021, at 2:49 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

?I was working on a Ford e450 with a giant parasitic draw. (6+ amps , key off). Tracked the problem down to the pcm not shutting down, because the instrument panel computer didn?t tell it was in park. (Why does the pcm trust the transmission for everything but park?)  the failed part, a switch connected to the shift interlocking, is $20, but not available until ?June or July ?.  Turns out the switch actually works, but some knuckle head plugged it in wrong and bent the pins. I took the connector apart, straightened the pins enough to plug it in and then reassembled the connector.  Everything works, but it feels hackish. (Less hackish than the backup
Plan to solder it together, I guess?). 


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Mon May  3 17:13:58 2021
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 19:13:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ?
In-Reply-To: <d8a9db04-4c90-63f7-e9ba-3dced6188fd1@dinospider.com>
References: <d8a9db04-4c90-63f7-e9ba-3dced6188fd1@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <FA118F89-F26F-4426-A724-3BFD53D0B8AE@gmail.com>

This may be too late, but the Tigers East/Alpines East (TEAE) newsletter just came out with an article on how to install a mini-split in a garage.  It seemed too spot on not to share, so with the Club?s and the author?s permission, I have attached the article in case it helps anyone here.

Jim

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> On Apr 19, 2021, at 7:49 PM, Mike Rambour <lists at dinospider.com> wrote:
> 
>  Ok, I want a cooler garage this year.  I have been planning to install a mini-split for several years now and this is the year.    Power will be a slight problem, shop has plenty but none where I want the compressor to go, so have to run some power. Shop has 200amp sub-panel 40ft away from where I want to install compressor. Not a big deal BUT I saw a 18k btu window unit at Home Depot and was thinking that should work great and be half the price.
> 
>  My shop is 24ft x 40ft so 960 sq. ft. 9ft tall walls of 2x6 filled with insulation and I went overboard on ceiling insulation also, stays cool until mid-afternnon on hot days then becomes a oven for the evening, I live in S. Calif.  I already have a Hot Dawg gas heater so I don't need the heat that a mini-split would provide, but might be nice to get rid of the Hot Dawg (doubt that I would) and have one unit do both.   In the "shop" area of the garage I have barn doors that I welded up forever ago, 1x2 steel with a plywood exterior, i have not used/opened those doors in over a decade, they were installed when I built the shop just so I could get my lathe and mill in easily.   I have no windows in the shop so I was thinking I could put this window ac unit in one of those barn doors, the frame will easily handle the weight and it would be a super easy hole to cut and install the unit into, I think even the hinges would handle the weight but I can get stronger bigger hinges if I need them.  Then I have dedicated 50amp plug right next to that for my TIG to plug the unit into, I weld mostly in the front of the shop anyway but I wired every wall with a 50amp for the TIG and 30amp for the table saw when I built the shop (I really went overboard on wiring).
> 
>  So what would you do ? mini-split seems to the answer but half the price for a easier install window unit and cut a hole in a unused door seems like a good idea, good ideas are often the worst...
> 
>     mike
> 
> -- 
> A gun is like a parachute, if you need one but don't have it,
> you'll probably never need one again.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
> 


From jem at milleredp.com  Mon May  3 17:35:06 2021
From: jem at milleredp.com (jem at milleredp.com)
Date: Mon, 03 May 2021 16:35:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts annoyance
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB31401978FE2AD7EC2064ACDAA85B9@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <0A45BD83-5C56-474D-A525-2C476DE48215@gmail.com>
 <1704DD5C-5970-4B74-B161-E18FA99BC9BD@icloud.com>
 <BN6PR06MB31401978FE2AD7EC2064ACDAA85B9@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <e14358647770526e69ffb477bdcee629@milleredp.com>

> A friend of mine has a (I think) out of warranty 2017 F150 that works
> in fine except the radiator fan would always run @ full speed.

The little Autel dongle that talks Bluetooth to your phone works great 
but you've got to license some vendor-specific code packs for it to get 
much out of it beyond basic OBD-II.  But neither the dongle nor the mfr 
code-packs are expensive.  We've got GM, Mercedes, and I'll probably be 
adding BMW to it soon.

John.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon May  3 20:26:26 2021
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 21:26:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts annoyance
In-Reply-To: <1704DD5C-5970-4B74-B161-E18FA99BC9BD@icloud.com>
References: <0A45BD83-5C56-474D-A525-2C476DE48215@gmail.com>
 <1704DD5C-5970-4B74-B161-E18FA99BC9BD@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supjVi_SnGAE8FUjFnj8_rFvJH-cutYvbrc2ZWBk-vAerw@mail.gmail.com>

> On May 3, 2021, at 15:00, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>
> ?All the electronics that is going into vehicles is hard to deal with troubleshooting even with factory equipment. We need to more thoroughly train mechanics in these areas, & fast!
>
> A friend of mine has a (I think) out of warranty 2017 F150 that works in fine except the radiator fan would always run @ full speed. The dealer couldn?t figure out what the problem was after 3 days so she bought a new truck so she wouldn?t have to listen to it. She was told that there were 27 computers in the truck & if any of them was bad it could cause odd problems not related to what that computer controlled.

I hope she made it clear to the dealer why she was trading it in on a
Chevy. That's a bull answer, from someone who is either incompotent, a
fraud, or lazy.  (or all three, they do work for a dealer....) and the
sort of thing that gives dealers a bad name.  I'd have called the
regional service manager, and politely asked why their dealer says a
four year old truck is unfixable.

> Glad you could troubleshoot the problem rather than shotgunning it as a lot of technicians would do.
>

The bus had already had $10K in parts cannon shot at.

To be fair to the shops, a lot of that was stuff it needed, it does
have 450k on the clock, is a 6.0 powerstroke[1], and was home to a
large number of mice.  But I?m pretty sure there was $1 or $2k  in
labor to fail to find the battery drain problem, and I think some of
the stuff one of the shops did was unnecessary.

[1] what an amazing lump of crap.  Putting it in an econoline chassis
is even stupider, the heat kills everything, and it's impossible to
work on it.

From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon May  3 22:01:42 2021
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 21:01:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
Message-ID: <38b2b690-f913-f37f-a5a1-c3d1ad0b994f@comcast.net>

Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing 
pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had 
bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and 
ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, and a 
1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx apparently 
lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One problem: the 
jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the threaded end of 
the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it without breaking the 
elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my shop tomorrow, but there's 
no guarantee of successful extraction.

I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone 
went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's Razor--"Don't 
attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence"--but 
the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone really had to work at 
it. I hope it felt good.

Vent mode off.

Bob
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From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon May  3 23:24:46 2021
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 22:24:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
In-Reply-To: <38b2b690-f913-f37f-a5a1-c3d1ad0b994f@comcast.net>
References: <38b2b690-f913-f37f-a5a1-c3d1ad0b994f@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>

I agree that it is unbelievable how bad some of the home centers can 
be.? Needed a vacuum cleaner belt fast.? Not in stock anywhere other 
than HD per the websites.? The nearest HD said there were five in 
stock.? Couldn't find any.? Next one said there were three in stock - 
none there.? Drove to a third one with seven listed in stock and still 
none available.? The employee at the last location said they are 
frequently shoplifted.? At each store I asked for help finding the belt 
and each employee said there were none in the store.? The sad thing is 
that a week later, the websites still had the same inventory numbers 
listed.? You would think there would be a process to correct inventory.? 
I'm in the Los Angeles area and have a number of stores to pick from and 
they are managed very differently.? I have not gone to the one nearest 
to my office in about five years because it is so poorly managed and the 
items like the plumbing and electrical fittings are all messed up.

My last adventure was a replacement battery for my wife's key locator.? 
Went to Lowes because they had 47 listed on their website.? Had an 
employee help me and checked all the battery storage areas and we 
couldn't find any.? A month later, the website still said 47 and the 
hook for that size remained empty.

I used to live near a nice True Value hardware store.? Much smaller, but 
organized better and there was always an employee willing to help me.? 
The prices are a little higher, but the convenience and service are 
worth it.? Sadly the landlord ended their lease to put in a restaurant 
that closed a year later (before the pandemic)

Brian

On 5/3/2021 9:01 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
> Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing 
> pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had 
> bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and 
> ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, and 
> a 1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx apparently 
> lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One problem: the 
> jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the threaded end of 
> the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it without breaking 
> the elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my shop tomorrow, but 
> there's no guarantee of successful extraction.
>
> I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone 
> went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's 
> Razor--"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by 
> incompetence"--but the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone 
> really had to work at it. I hope it felt good.
>
> Vent mode off.
>
> Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
>

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From dave1massey at cs.com  Tue May  4 05:32:05 2021
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 11:32:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
In-Reply-To: <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>
References: <38b2b690-f913-f37f-a5a1-c3d1ad0b994f@comcast.net>
 <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1737052406.130013.1620127925445@mail.yahoo.com>

 It cost actual money to do a hard count of inventory.? These outfits cut cost wherever possible and that is the first thing to go.? The right thing to do is when this happens the employee should zero out the count but I seriously doubt they are empowered to do so.? Nor are they motivated to do so.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net>
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>; Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2021 12:24 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable

 I agree that it is unbelievable how bad some of the home centers can be.? Needed a vacuum cleaner belt fast.? Not in stock anywhere other than HD per the websites.? The nearest HD said there were five in stock.? Couldn't find any.? Next one said there were three in stock - none there.? Drove to a third one with seven listed in stock and still none available.? The employee at the last location said they are frequently shoplifted.? At each store I asked for help finding the belt and each employee said there were none in the store.? The sad thing is that a week later, the websites still had the same inventory numbers listed.? You would think there would be a process to correct inventory.? I'm in the Los Angeles area and have a number of stores to pick from and they are managed very differently.? I have not gone to the one nearest to my office in about five years because it is so poorly managed and the items like the plumbing and electrical fittings are all messed up.
 
 My last adventure was a replacement battery for my wife's key locator.? Went to Lowes because they had 47 listed on their website.? Had an employee help me and checked all the battery storage areas and we couldn't find any.? A month later, the website still said 47 and the hook for that size remained empty.
 
 I used to live near a nice True Value hardware store.? Much smaller, but organized better and there was always an employee willing to help me.? The prices are a little higher, but the convenience and service are worth it.? Sadly the landlord ended their lease to put in a restaurant that closed a year later (before the pandemic)
 
 Brian
 
 On 5/3/2021 9:01 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
  
Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, and a 1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx apparently lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One problem: the jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the threaded end of the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it without breaking the elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my shop tomorrow, but there's no guarantee of successful extraction. 
 
 I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's Razor--"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence"--but the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone really had to work at it. I hope it felt good. 
 
 Vent mode off. 
 
 Bob 
 
  
_______________________________________________Shop-talk at autox.team.netDonate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlSuggested annual donation $12.96Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archiveUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net 
 
 _______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue May  4 05:46:21 2021
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 07:46:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
In-Reply-To: <1737052406.130013.1620127925445@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <38b2b690-f913-f37f-a5a1-c3d1ad0b994f@comcast.net>
 <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>
 <1737052406.130013.1620127925445@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COf7yyN9fstgfyCx4F2sMEQxU8LDLxZMG_=o+0LS3HiVg@mail.gmail.com>

In my state, a store pays property tax on inventory on hand on January
1st.  Between tax on things that don't exist, and lost sales due to
people giving up and going toteh competition, I can't imagine how it's
cheaper to hire one less employee to manage inventory.

I needed something from Lowe's on Saturday.  Web site said 20 were on
hand.  At the shelf, the hook was empty.  I found an employee, and we
found the box in the overhead storage.  Maybe I got lucky, but I like
to think my local store is helpful and organized.   Maybe they should
be giving lessons?

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 7:33 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
>
> It cost actual money to do a hard count of inventory.  These outfits cut cost wherever possible and that is the first thing to go.  The right thing to do is when this happens the employee should zero out the count but I seriously doubt they are empowered to do so.  Nor are they motivated to do so.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net>
> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>; Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, May 4, 2021 12:24 am
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
>
> I agree that it is unbelievable how bad some of the home centers can be.  Needed a vacuum cleaner belt fast.  Not in stock anywhere other than HD per the websites.  The nearest HD said there were five in stock.  Couldn't find any.  Next one said there were three in stock - none there.  Drove to a third one with seven listed in stock and still none available.  The employee at the last location said they are frequently shoplifted.  At each store I asked for help finding the belt and each employee said there were none in the store.  The sad thing is that a week later, the websites still had the same inventory numbers listed.  You would think there would be a process to correct inventory.  I'm in the Los Angeles area and have a number of stores to pick from and they are managed very differently.  I have not gone to the one nearest to my office in about five years because it is so poorly managed and the items like the plumbing and electrical fittings are all messed up.
>
> My last adventure was a replacement battery for my wife's key locator.  Went to Lowes because they had 47 listed on their website.  Had an employee help me and checked all the battery storage areas and we couldn't find any.  A month later, the website still said 47 and the hook for that size remained empty.
>
> I used to live near a nice True Value hardware store.  Much smaller, but organized better and there was always an employee willing to help me.  The prices are a little higher, but the convenience and service are worth it.  Sadly the landlord ended their lease to put in a restaurant that closed a year later (before the pandemic)
>
> Brian
>
> On 5/3/2021 9:01 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
>
> Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, and a 1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx apparently lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One problem: the jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the threaded end of the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it without breaking the elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my shop tomorrow, but there's no guarantee of successful extraction.
>
> I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's Razor--"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence"--but the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone really had to work at it. I hope it felt good.
>
> Vent mode off.
>
> Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Tue May  4 05:54:56 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 06:54:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
In-Reply-To: <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>
References: <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <91C644FE-FBDF-4D2E-A5BE-96DAD014A262@icloud.com>

I?ve gotten to the point where I call the big box stores & have them actually lay eyes on what I am looking for if the quantity is shown to be less than 20. If they confirm that they have it I then place an on line order & pick it up in a few hours. It saves a bunch of time. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 4, 2021, at 12:25 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

? I agree that it is unbelievable how bad some of the home centers can be.  Needed a vacuum cleaner belt fast.  Not in stock anywhere other than HD per the websites.  The nearest HD said there were five in stock.  Couldn't find any.  Next one said there were three in stock - none there.  Drove to a third one with seven listed in stock and still none available.  The employee at the last location said they are frequently shoplifted.  At each store I asked for help finding the belt and each employee said there were none in the store.  The sad thing is that a week later, the websites still had the same inventory numbers listed.  You would think there would be a process to correct inventory.  I'm in the Los Angeles area and have a number of stores to pick from and they are managed very differently.  I have not gone to the one nearest to my office in about five years because it is so poorly managed and the items like the plumbing and electrical fittings are all messed up.

My last adventure was a replacement battery for my wife's key locator.  Went to Lowes because they had 47 listed on their website.  Had an employee help me and checked all the battery storage areas and we couldn't find any.  A month later, the website still said 47 and the hook for that size remained empty.

I used to live near a nice True Value hardware store.  Much smaller, but organized better and there was always an employee willing to help me.  The prices are a little higher, but the convenience and service are worth it.  Sadly the landlord ended their lease to put in a restaurant that closed a year later (before the pandemic)

Brian

On 5/3/2021 9:01 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
> Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, and a 1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx apparently lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One problem: the jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the threaded end of the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it without breaking the elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my shop tomorrow, but there's no guarantee of successful extraction. 
> 
> I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's Razor--"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence"--but the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone really had to work at it. I hope it felt good. 
> 
> Vent mode off. 
> 
> Bob 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Tue May  4 07:07:50 2021
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 09:07:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
In-Reply-To: <91C644FE-FBDF-4D2E-A5BE-96DAD014A262@icloud.com>
References: <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>
 <91C644FE-FBDF-4D2E-A5BE-96DAD014A262@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <F1351CC7-479A-4AFA-98D9-8D96B85BFF37@gmail.com>

Sadly, my experience has been that big (and too often, not-so-big) box employees are either inadequately trained or simply lack the motivation to put any work into looking for something that is not readily obvious.  I went into a Tractor Supply store last week to buy Cotton Picker Spindle Grease 00, which I am sure is not a frequently purchased item.  (FWIW, I want to see if it is a good lubricant to use in my Alpine?s steering gear, since traditional gear oil often leaks out and regular grease is often too thick.). Their website showed the store carried it, but the kid who helped me looked through the motor oil section and said they didn?t have it.  I suggested that it might be somewhere else, but he was adamant that it would be with the auto oils and additives.  I eventually found another employee willing to look harder and they had about a dozen bottles in a completely different section just a few rows away.  

This has happened to me more times than I wish to count, and I now rarely accept the first ?we don?t have it? response and often just find it on my own.

Jim 

p.s.  Writing the above reminds me of an experience more than 30 years ago.  We had just moved into a new home and needed smoke detectors.  I did some research on them and discovered that there were then two types, photoelectric and ionization.  I don?t remember which type I decided to get, but went to a local big box store (the national chains hadn?t taken over yet) and was studying their detector display.  A young girl came over and asked if I needed any help.  

?Yes I do.  Can you tell me which ones are photoelectric and which are ionization?? 
?Oh no, sir.  They all run on batteries."

> On May 4, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> I?ve gotten to the point where I call the big box stores & have them actually lay eyes on what I am looking for if the quantity is shown to be less than 20. If they confirm that they have it I then place an on line order & pick it up in a few hours. It saves a bunch of time. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
> On May 4, 2021, at 12:25 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> ? I agree that it is unbelievable how bad some of the home centers can be.  Needed a vacuum cleaner belt fast.  Not in stock anywhere other than HD per the websites.  The nearest HD said there were five in stock.  Couldn't find any.  Next one said there were three in stock - none there.  Drove to a third one with seven listed in stock and still none available.  The employee at the last location said they are frequently shoplifted.  At each store I asked for help finding the belt and each employee said there were none in the store.  The sad thing is that a week later, the websites still had the same inventory numbers listed.  You would think there would be a process to correct inventory.  I'm in the Los Angeles area and have a number of stores to pick from and they are managed very differently.  I have not gone to the one nearest to my office in about five years because it is so poorly managed and the items like the plumbing and electrical fittings are all messed up.
> 
> My last adventure was a replacement battery for my wife's key locator.  Went to Lowes because they had 47 listed on their website.  Had an employee help me and checked all the battery storage areas and we couldn't find any.  A month later, the website still said 47 and the hook for that size remained empty.
> 
> I used to live near a nice True Value hardware store.  Much smaller, but organized better and there was always an employee willing to help me.  The prices are a little higher, but the convenience and service are worth it.  Sadly the landlord ended their lease to put in a restaurant that closed a year later (before the pandemic)
> 
> Brian
> 
> On 5/3/2021 9:01 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
>> Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, and a 1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx apparently lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One problem: the jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the threaded end of the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it without breaking the elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my shop tomorrow, but there's no guarantee of successful extraction. 
>> 
>> I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's Razor--"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence"--but the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone really had to work at it. I hope it felt good. 
>> 
>> Vent mode off. 
>> 
>> Bob 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue May  4 08:26:41 2021
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 07:26:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
In-Reply-To: <F1351CC7-479A-4AFA-98D9-8D96B85BFF37@gmail.com>
References: <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>
 <91C644FE-FBDF-4D2E-A5BE-96DAD014A262@icloud.com>
 <F1351CC7-479A-4AFA-98D9-8D96B85BFF37@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d779d071-1377-a37a-2d13-6fc51b9ec1e3@comcast.net>

Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey 
universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places 
online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a 
couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the 
hard part.

On 5/4/2021 6:07 AM, Jim Stone wrote:
> Sadly, my experience has been that big (and too often, not-so-big) box 
> employees are either inadequately trained or simply lack the 
> motivation to put any work into looking for something that is not 
> readily obvious. ?I went into a Tractor Supply store last week to buy 
> Cotton Picker Spindle Grease 00, which I am sure is not a frequently 
> purchased item. ?(FWIW, I want to see if it is a good lubricant to use 
> in my Alpine?s steering gear, since traditional gear oil often leaks 
> out and regular grease is often too thick.). Their website showed the 
> store carried it, but the kid who helped me looked through the motor 
> oil?section and said they didn?t have it. ?I suggested that it might 
> be somewhere else, but he was adamant that it would be with the auto 
> oils and?additives. ?I eventually found another employee willing to 
> look harder and they?had?about a dozen bottles in a completely 
> different section just a few rows away.
>
> This has?happened to me more times than I wish to count, and I now 
> rarely accept the first??we?don?t have it? response and often just 
> find it on my own.
>
> Jim
>
> p.s. ?Writing the above reminds me of an experience more than 30 years 
> ago. ?We had just moved into a new home and needed smoke detectors. ?I 
> did some research on them and discovered that there were then two 
> types, photoelectric and?ionization. ?I?don?t?remember which type I 
> decided to get, but went to a local big box store (the national 
> chains?hadn?t taken over yet) and was studying their?detector display. 
> ?A young girl came over and asked if I needed any help.
>
>     ?Yes I do. ?Can you tell me which ones are photoelectric and which
>     are ionization??
>     ?Oh no, sir. ?They all run on batteries."
>
>
>> On May 4, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com 
>> <mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I?ve gotten to the point where I call the big box stores & have them 
>> actually lay eyes on what I am looking for if the quantity is shown 
>> to be less than 20. If they confirm that they have it I then place an 
>> on line order & pick it up in a few hours. It saves a bunch of time.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On May 4, 2021, at 12:25 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net 
>> <mailto:bk13 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>
>> ? I agree that it is unbelievable how bad some of the home centers 
>> can be.? Needed a vacuum cleaner belt fast.? Not in stock anywhere 
>> other than HD per the websites.? The nearest HD said there were five 
>> in stock.? Couldn't find any.? Next one said there were three in 
>> stock - none there.? Drove to a third one with seven listed in stock 
>> and still none available.? The employee at the last location said 
>> they are frequently shoplifted.? At each store I asked for help 
>> finding the belt and each employee said there were none in the 
>> store.? The sad thing is that a week later, the websites still had 
>> the same inventory numbers listed.? You would think there would be a 
>> process to correct inventory.? I'm in the Los Angeles area and have a 
>> number of stores to pick from and they are managed very differently.? 
>> I have not gone to the one nearest to my office in about five years 
>> because it is so poorly managed and the items like the plumbing and 
>> electrical fittings are all messed up.
>>
>> My last adventure was a replacement battery for my wife's key 
>> locator.? Went to Lowes because they had 47 listed on their website.? 
>> Had an employee help me and checked all the battery storage areas and 
>> we couldn't find any.? A month later, the website still said 47 and 
>> the hook for that size remained empty.
>>
>> I used to live near a nice True Value hardware store.? Much smaller, 
>> but organized better and there was always an employee willing to help 
>> me.? The prices are a little higher, but the convenience and service 
>> are worth it.? Sadly the landlord ended their lease to put in a 
>> restaurant that closed a year later (before the pandemic)
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> On 5/3/2021 9:01 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
>>> Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing 
>>> pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had 
>>> bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and 
>>> ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, 
>>> and a 1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx 
>>> apparently lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One 
>>> problem: the jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the 
>>> threaded end of the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it 
>>> without breaking the elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my 
>>> shop tomorrow, but there's no guarantee of successful extraction.
>>>
>>> I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone 
>>> went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's 
>>> Razor--"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by 
>>> incompetence"--but the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone 
>>> really had to work at it. I hope it felt good.
>>>
>>> Vent mode off.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation ?$12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
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>>
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>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com 
>> <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com>
>>
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>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Tue May  4 08:52:14 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 09:52:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts annoyance
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5supjVi_SnGAE8FUjFnj8_rFvJH-cutYvbrc2ZWBk-vAerw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+k5supjVi_SnGAE8FUjFnj8_rFvJH-cutYvbrc2ZWBk-vAerw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FC2EDD61-AB39-493B-AE07-7AC3F27F8E10@icloud.com>

Surprisingly she got another Ford & kept the old one for ranch use. She is a real estate broker & uses her good truck to show ranches. Had to be a class truck. When she is working her longhorn cattle, not so much. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 3, 2021, at 9:26 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

?
> 
> On May 3, 2021, at 15:00, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> ?All the electronics that is going into vehicles is hard to deal with troubleshooting even with factory equipment. We need to more thoroughly train mechanics in these areas, & fast!
> 
> A friend of mine has a (I think) out of warranty 2017 F150 that works in fine except the radiator fan would always run @ full speed. The dealer couldn?t figure out what the problem was after 3 days so she bought a new truck so she wouldn?t have to listen to it. She was told that there were 27 computers in the truck & if any of them was bad it could cause odd problems not related to what that computer controlled.

I hope she made it clear to the dealer why she was trading it in on a
Chevy. That's a bull answer, from someone who is either incompotent, a
fraud, or lazy.  (or all three, they do work for a dealer....) and the
sort of thing that gives dealers a bad name.  I'd have called the
regional service manager, and politely asked why their dealer says a
four year old truck is unfixable.

> Glad you could troubleshoot the problem rather than shotgunning it as a lot of technicians would do.
> 

The bus had already had $10K in parts cannon shot at.

To be fair to the shops, a lot of that was stuff it needed, it does
have 450k on the clock, is a 6.0 powerstroke[1], and was home to a
large number of mice.  But I?m pretty sure there was $1 or $2k  in
labor to fail to find the battery drain problem, and I think some of
the stuff one of the shops did was unnecessary.

[1] what an amazing lump of crap.  Putting it in an econoline chassis
is even stupider, the heat kills everything, and it's impossible to
work on it.

From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Tue May  4 10:45:13 2021
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 16:45:13 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable
In-Reply-To: <91C644FE-FBDF-4D2E-A5BE-96DAD014A262@icloud.com>
References: <4e0ba187-5f2e-e8ff-f968-9e155af459b6@earthlink.net>,
 <91C644FE-FBDF-4D2E-A5BE-96DAD014A262@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <DS7PR19MB4629097ECC6FB19EADB33474B45A9@DS7PR19MB4629.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

"I?ve gotten to the point where I call the big box stores...."

This assumes you can get someone on the phone.

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 6:54 AM
To: Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net>
Cc: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [OT] Unbelievable

I?ve gotten to the point where I call the big box stores & have them actually lay eyes on what I am looking for if the quantity is shown to be less than 20. If they confirm that they have it I then place an on line order & pick it up in a few hours. It saves a bunch of time.

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 4, 2021, at 12:25 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

? I agree that it is unbelievable how bad some of the home centers can be.  Needed a vacuum cleaner belt fast.  Not in stock anywhere other than HD per the websites.  The nearest HD said there were five in stock.  Couldn't find any.  Next one said there were three in stock - none there.  Drove to a third one with seven listed in stock and still none available.  The employee at the last location said they are frequently shoplifted.  At each store I asked for help finding the belt and each employee said there were none in the store.  The sad thing is that a week later, the websites still had the same inventory numbers listed.  You would think there would be a process to correct inventory.  I'm in the Los Angeles area and have a number of stores to pick from and they are managed very differently.  I have not gone to the one nearest to my office in about five years because it is so poorly managed and the items like the plumbing and electrical fittings are all messed up.

My last adventure was a replacement battery for my wife's key locator.  Went to Lowes because they had 47 listed on their website.  Had an employee help me and checked all the battery storage areas and we couldn't find any.  A month later, the website still said 47 and the hook for that size remained empty.

I used to live near a nice True Value hardware store.  Much smaller, but organized better and there was always an employee willing to help me.  The prices are a little higher, but the convenience and service are worth it.  Sadly the landlord ended their lease to put in a restaurant that closed a year later (before the pandemic)

Brian

On 5/3/2021 9:01 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
Pardon me, I just gotta vent. Not being able to find these plumbing pieces at HD and Lowe's--even though their websites said they had bunches in stock--and at a plumbing supply, I finally broke down and ordered from Lowe's (2"<->2" elbow, external thread to slip joint, and a 1.5" plug, for a different application). So, after FedEx apparently lost, then found, the shipment they showed up today. One problem: the jackass that packed them jammed the 1.5" plug into the threaded end of the elbow so hard it may be impossible to remove it without breaking the elbow. I'll get it in a vice when I get to my shop tomorrow, but there's no guarantee of successful extraction.

I get it; working the line at a warehouse is a shit job, but someone went out of their way to do this. I usually apply Hanlon's Razor--"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence"--but the plug is jammed in the elbow so hard someone really had to work at it. I hope it felt good.

Vent mode off.

Bob



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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Tue May  4 11:37:24 2021
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 13:37:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <d779d071-1377-a37a-2d13-6fc51b9ec1e3@comcast.net>
References: <d779d071-1377-a37a-2d13-6fc51b9ec1e3@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49145C96-D1BA-4B6F-9265-C55D09454A4E@gmail.com>

Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic. 

Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> ? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Tue May  4 22:24:06 2021
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 04:24:06 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <49145C96-D1BA-4B6F-9265-C55D09454A4E@gmail.com>
References: <d779d071-1377-a37a-2d13-6fc51b9ec1e3@comcast.net>
 <49145C96-D1BA-4B6F-9265-C55D09454A4E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

A lot of Triumph guys like Cornhead grease in the steering box too.  Leaks are a lot less likely than the specified oils.

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:37 AM
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil

Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic.

Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often.

Sent from my iPhone


On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed May  5 10:31:31 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 11:31:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <481EAE0E-E5D3-4CCC-949B-93378574E4B2@icloud.com>

I?m not involved w/British cars, but old Japanese cars & would like some information about the vehicles that y?all are considering using cornhead grease on. Are these steering boxes recirculating ball or worm & peg boxes? The Datsun roadsters I?m involved with use both types depending on year. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 4, 2021, at 11:26 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:

?
A lot of Triumph guys like Cornhead grease in the steering box too.  Leaks are a lot less likely than the specified oils.
 
Jack
 
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:37 AM
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
 
Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic. 
 
Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often. 
 
Sent from my iPhone


On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From JIBrooks at live.com  Wed May  5 10:50:20 2021
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 16:50:20 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <481EAE0E-E5D3-4CCC-949B-93378574E4B2@icloud.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <481EAE0E-E5D3-4CCC-949B-93378574E4B2@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB31513D2E75A78EF60E42FF29A8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Pat,

My TR3 is a worm and peg.

The way it was explained to me??..  Cornhead grease is that it?s a semi-fluid, self-leveling grease thick enough to stay put, but will liquify easier than regular grease, so it?ll work ?as an oil? in steering boxes that specify oil, not grease.

I couldn?t find the John Deere spec sheet quickly, but a number of the properties are highlighted here.
https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-Corn-Head-Gun-Grease-AN102562.html

Jack

From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:32 AM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil

I?m not involved w/British cars, but old Japanese cars & would like some information about the vehicles that y?all are considering using cornhead grease on. Are these steering boxes recirculating ball or worm & peg boxes? The Datsun roadsters I?m involved with use both types depending on year.

Peace,
Pat
Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 4, 2021, at 11:26 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com<mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
?
A lot of Triumph guys like Cornhead grease in the steering box too.  Leaks are a lot less likely than the specified oils.

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:37 AM
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil

Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic.

Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often.

Sent from my iPhone



On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Wed May  5 15:06:39 2021
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 17:06:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB31513D2E75A78EF60E42FF29A8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <481EAE0E-E5D3-4CCC-949B-93378574E4B2@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31513D2E75A78EF60E42FF29A8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <84F82749-1AFD-487D-9287-264157A90F17@gmail.com>

Interesting.  The Alpine is a recirculating ball unit, but the issues are the same.  The OEM specification was 90wt gear oil, but that has a tendency to leak out after 50+ years.  I packed mine with regular grease many years ago and, while it still feels fine and I haven?t pulled the top cover off to check, I gather that because grease doesn?t flow, it will gradually get pushed away from the gears if I didn?t get the packing perfect.  So, I will eventually replace it with what I recently purchased, and then with the corn head grease if that doesn?t work.

Here is a John Deere video discussing the grease.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zNhli-J0Gk (I can?t help but think the Deere video is actually modeled on the old Turbo Encabulator video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag)

And, here is an exploded view of an Alpine gear.  



Jim

> On May 5, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at Live.com> wrote:
> 
> Pat,
>  
> My TR3 is a worm and peg. 
>  
> The way it was explained to me??..  Cornhead grease is that it?s a semi-fluid, self-leveling grease thick enough to stay put, but will liquify easier than regular grease, so it?ll work ?as an oil? in steering boxes that specify oil, not grease.
>  
> I couldn?t find the John Deere spec sheet quickly, but a number of the properties are highlighted here.
> https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-Corn-Head-Gun-Grease-AN102562.html <https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-Corn-Head-Gun-Grease-AN102562.html>
>  
> Jack
>  
> From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:32 AM
> To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
> Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>  
> I?m not involved w/British cars, but old Japanese cars & would like some information about the vehicles that y?all are considering using cornhead grease on. Are these steering boxes recirculating ball or worm & peg boxes? The Datsun roadsters I?m involved with use both types depending on year. 
>  
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>  
> 
> On May 4, 2021, at 11:26 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com <mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
> 
> ? 
> A lot of Triumph guys like Cornhead grease in the steering box too.  Leaks are a lot less likely than the specified oils.
>  
> Jack
>  
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:37 AM
> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>  
> Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic. 
>  
> Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often. 
>  
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> 
> On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
> 
> ? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com>_______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed May  5 16:36:41 2021
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 18:36:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB31513D2E75A78EF60E42FF29A8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <481EAE0E-E5D3-4CCC-949B-93378574E4B2@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31513D2E75A78EF60E42FF29A8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMv=P_b_1SRkSOfAvL0Y1ZkqQmBL7h+q8CTUvAHsduFcw@mail.gmail.com>

Having spent some time in the seat of a JD 9900, I can verify that
spindle grease is very runny, without being leakingly runny.  Also a
fascinating green color...kind of like minty toothpaste.  But
slippery.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 4:30 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>
> Pat,
>
>
>
> My TR3 is a worm and peg.
>
>
>
> The way it was explained to me??..  Cornhead grease is that it?s a semi-fluid, self-leveling grease thick enough to stay put, but will liquify easier than regular grease, so it?ll work ?as an oil? in steering boxes that specify oil, not grease.
>
>
>
> I couldn?t find the John Deere spec sheet quickly, but a number of the properties are highlighted here.
> https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-Corn-Head-Gun-Grease-AN102562.html
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:32 AM
> To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
> Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>
>
>
> I?m not involved w/British cars, but old Japanese cars & would like some information about the vehicles that y?all are considering using cornhead grease on. Are these steering boxes recirculating ball or worm & peg boxes? The Datsun roadsters I?m involved with use both types depending on year.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
>
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
>
>
> On May 4, 2021, at 11:26 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> A lot of Triumph guys like Cornhead grease in the steering box too.  Leaks are a lot less likely than the specified oils.
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:37 AM
> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>
>
>
> Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic.
>
>
>
> Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
> On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed May  5 22:31:39 2021
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 21:31:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMv=P_b_1SRkSOfAvL0Y1ZkqQmBL7h+q8CTUvAHsduFcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <481EAE0E-E5D3-4CCC-949B-93378574E4B2@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31513D2E75A78EF60E42FF29A8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMv=P_b_1SRkSOfAvL0Y1ZkqQmBL7h+q8CTUvAHsduFcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c43ec60-a976-1b19-2bdc-5edb7780c2c1@comcast.net>

My Healey 100's box is leaking profusely; has 1) anyone injected the CH 
Grease into a box with some 90W remaining? Does the CG Grease displace 
the oil and 2) anyone found a quick-and-easy way to get the grease in 
(mine's in regular grease gun tubes; just wondering if there's an easier 
way)?

Bob

On 5/5/2021 3:36 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
> Having spent some time in the seat of a JD 9900, I can verify that
> spindle grease is very runny, without being leakingly runny.  Also a
> fascinating green color...kind of like minty toothpaste.  But
> slippery.
>
> Jeff Scarbrough
> Corrosion Acres, Ga.
>
> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 4:30 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>> Pat,
>>
>>
>>
>> My TR3 is a worm and peg.
>>
>>
>>
>> The way it was explained to me??..  Cornhead grease is that it?s a semi-fluid, self-leveling grease thick enough to stay put, but will liquify easier than regular grease, so it?ll work ?as an oil? in steering boxes that specify oil, not grease.
>>
>>
>>
>> I couldn?t find the John Deere spec sheet quickly, but a number of the properties are highlighted here.
>> https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-Corn-Head-Gun-Grease-AN102562.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:32 AM
>> To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
>> Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>>
>>
>>
>> I?m not involved w/British cars, but old Japanese cars & would like some information about the vehicles that y?all are considering using cornhead grease on. Are these steering boxes recirculating ball or worm & peg boxes? The Datsun roadsters I?m involved with use both types depending on year.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>>
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 4, 2021, at 11:26 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> A lot of Triumph guys like Cornhead grease in the steering box too.  Leaks are a lot less likely than the specified oils.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Stone
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:37 AM
>> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> ? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>


From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Thu May  6 05:47:50 2021
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 07:47:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
In-Reply-To: <9c43ec60-a976-1b19-2bdc-5edb7780c2c1@comcast.net>
References: <MWHPR06MB315162A18ABD5EB3643A3D8EA8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <481EAE0E-E5D3-4CCC-949B-93378574E4B2@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31513D2E75A78EF60E42FF29A8599@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMv=P_b_1SRkSOfAvL0Y1ZkqQmBL7h+q8CTUvAHsduFcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9c43ec60-a976-1b19-2bdc-5edb7780c2c1@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <01DBE875-F245-43BB-B982-2E5DE440AF30@gmail.com>

I don?t know if this will work for a Healey, but I drilled and tapped a hole in my steering box cover and installed a grease fitting.  It stuck out a bit on the inside and I ground that down so that it was flush and squirted some grease through to be sure it was clean.  I then packed as much grease in the box as I could, re-installed it and added more until it came out the original filler hole.

I can?t answer your question about mixing them, and am curious about the answer, too.

> On May 6, 2021, at 12:31 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> My Healey 100's box is leaking profusely; has 1) anyone injected the CH Grease into a box with some 90W remaining? Does the CG Grease displace the oil and 2) anyone found a quick-and-easy way to get the grease in (mine's in regular grease gun tubes; just wondering if there's an easier way)?
> 
> Bob
> 
> On 5/5/2021 3:36 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
>> Having spent some time in the seat of a JD 9900, I can verify that
>> spindle grease is very runny, without being leakingly runny.  Also a
>> fascinating green color...kind of like minty toothpaste.  But
>> slippery.
>> 
>> Jeff Scarbrough
>> Corrosion Acres, Ga.
>> 
>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 4:30 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>>> Pat,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> My TR3 is a worm and peg.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The way it was explained to me??..  Cornhead grease is that it?s a semi-fluid, self-leveling grease thick enough to stay put, but will liquify easier than regular grease, so it?ll work ?as an oil? in steering boxes that specify oil, not grease.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I couldn?t find the John Deere spec sheet quickly, but a number of the properties are highlighted here.
>>> https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-Corn-Head-Gun-Grease-AN102562.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jack
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:32 AM
>>> To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
>>> Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I?m not involved w/British cars, but old Japanese cars & would like some information about the vehicles that y?all are considering using cornhead grease on. Are these steering boxes recirculating ball or worm & peg boxes? The Datsun roadsters I?m involved with use both types depending on year.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Peace,
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> Pat Horne
>>> 
>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 4, 2021, at 11:26 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> 
>>> A lot of Triumph guys like Cornhead grease in the steering box too.  Leaks are a lot less likely than the specified oils.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jack
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Stone
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:37 AM
>>> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Steering gear oil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Bob. I didn?t want to hijack the thread, so I changed the subject line, just in case anyone else was interested in the topic.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cornhead grease was recently suggested on the Alpine forum, probably by someone who owns an Alpine and a Healey. In fact, I found the cotton picker oil while looking for cornhead grease.  Besides being more readily available, at least if you have a Tractor Supply nearby, it is just slightly thinner than the grease, which might make it easier to get in the box but still thick enough not to leak out. I won?t know until I try it, and that might be a while. This is pretty low on my to do list right now; I just bought it because I was in the vicinity of a TS store, something that doesn?t happen all that often.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ? Side note: The 'goto' for leaky steering boxes in the Austin-Healey universe is John Deere 'Cornhead Grease;' available at many places online (and probably equivalent to spindle grease). A friend sent me a couple tubes, but I haven't tried it yet; getting it in the box is the hard part.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net>
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com>
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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu May  6 16:31:56 2021
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 18:31:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router bit conundrum
Message-ID: <DD2D4C08-2486-4764-9C12-DE133BBA7085@groupwbench.org>

I'm putting 5/4 x 6 decking boards as the top of my deck's railing, and because it's treated SYP I'm not even attempting to mitre and screw the 45s. I read about something called "gap and pillow", where you purposely leave a 1/4" or so gap between the pieces, and roundover the edges. This way when it warps, there is no sharp edge to draw the eye's attention. 

I'd like to do something "pointier" than just a bullnose edge, but I can't figure out how to get it. I thought about using a 3/4 roundover bit, but the second side won't have the same edge to guide the bit because the first pass will remove too much wood.

This is on the short edge of boards up to 14' long so I can't use the router table. Any idea on how to get this type of edge (and what it's called) without a fence?  It would have a parabolic shape instead of a perfect round shape.

thanks,
jim

From patintexas at icloud.com  Thu May  6 16:40:30 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 17:40:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router bit conundrum
In-Reply-To: <DD2D4C08-2486-4764-9C12-DE133BBA7085@groupwbench.org>
References: <DD2D4C08-2486-4764-9C12-DE133BBA7085@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <F1481AA8-0112-4712-A666-A40D9C6F03DF@icloud.com>

Jim,

Several possibilities. You could consider a chamfer bit or table saw to cut a bevel on each board, or see if you can find a router bit for shoe molding. 

Another unrelated suggestion is to use hidden fasteners that go into slots on the edges of the wood with screws between them. They hold better than face screwing the boards. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 6, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

?I'm putting 5/4 x 6 decking boards as the top of my deck's railing, and because it's treated SYP I'm not even attempting to mitre and screw the 45s. I read about something called "gap and pillow", where you purposely leave a 1/4" or so gap between the pieces, and roundover the edges. This way when it warps, there is no sharp edge to draw the eye's attention. 

I'd like to do something "pointier" than just a bullnose edge, but I can't figure out how to get it. I thought about using a 3/4 roundover bit, but the second side won't have the same edge to guide the bit because the first pass will remove too much wood.

This is on the short edge of boards up to 14' long so I can't use the router table. Any idea on how to get this type of edge (and what it's called) without a fence?  It would have a parabolic shape instead of a perfect round shape.

thanks,
jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu May  6 18:27:35 2021
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 19:27:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router bit conundrum
In-Reply-To: <DD2D4C08-2486-4764-9C12-DE133BBA7085@groupwbench.org>
References: <DD2D4C08-2486-4764-9C12-DE133BBA7085@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supgQT6V2aVWZ3vvOOEmrncxf6wf6iQwwRp-z7GVF+K9Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 5:32 PM Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> I'd like to do something "pointier" than just a bullnose edge, but I can't figure out how to get it. I thought about using a 3/4 roundover bit, but the second side won't have the same edge to guide the bit because the first pass will remove too much wood.
>
> This is on the short edge of boards up to 14' long so I can't use the router table. Any idea on how to get this type of edge (and what it's called) without a fence?  It would have a parabolic shape instead of a perfect round shape.

Just because you can't take it to the router table doesn't mean you
can use a fence, or other template.  Cut a template out of mdf, attach
some blocks for getting it aligned right, clamp it the correct
distance from the end, and run the router along it.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu May  6 19:04:56 2021
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 21:04:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router bit conundrum
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5supgQT6V2aVWZ3vvOOEmrncxf6wf6iQwwRp-z7GVF+K9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DD2D4C08-2486-4764-9C12-DE133BBA7085@groupwbench.org>
 <CA+k5supgQT6V2aVWZ3vvOOEmrncxf6wf6iQwwRp-z7GVF+K9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FDD1441D-5DE7-45AF-901B-0C5363333B71@groupwbench.org>



> On May 6, 2021, at 8:27 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 5:32 PM Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
>> I'd like to do something "pointier" than just a bullnose edge, but I can't figure out how to get it. I thought about using a 3/4 roundover bit, but the second side won't have the same edge to guide the bit because the first pass will remove too much wood.
>> 
>> This is on the short edge of boards up to 14' long so I can't use the router table. Any idea on how to get this type of edge (and what it's called) without a fence?  It would have a parabolic shape instead of a perfect round shape.
> 
> Just because you can't take it to the router table doesn't mean you
> can use a fence, or other template.  Cut a template out of mdf, attach
> some blocks for getting it aligned right, clamp it the correct
> distance from the end, and run the router along it.

This might have worked if I didn't run out of patience (14 edges to do), but Pat's suggestion of using a chamfer bit was the perfect solution. It's a PT deck, so really the edge treatment isn't critical since I expect it to all pretzel in a few years. A chamfer bit adds more interest than a bullnose and I can reuse the bit in the future moreso than a 3/4 roundover or other specialty bit.

Thanks all!

jim

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Fri May  7 13:02:24 2021
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 14:02:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any of you guys fool around with HVAC/refrigeration?
Message-ID: <CAK73_u4T9MPRoVRZkTLofqrR8wv-J_A8OaGO-EG=xG1KYJjY2g@mail.gmail.com>

I just spent the morning calling maybe twenty different results under
"Appliance Repair" on Google to fix a Sub Zero refrigerator that came with
the new house.

Literally every one Just Doesn't Want to be Bothered. The Sub Zero dealer
WILL take my money--$700 for the part--and another $800 for the labor. This
is an undercounter fridge that I can just toss, and Google tells me the
part is $150 online. I don't like it $1500, especially when it looks like
their labor rate is $400/hour (including drive time) and the part has a
400% markup.

Separately, I have two 1950s-era Coca Cola bottle vending machines. They
have sentimental value so I don't want to toss them, but a while back I
tried calling around to have them repaired because they don't cool. That
was worse than trying to have a refrigerator fixed.

These are all just compressors attached to evaporators, etc. The vending
machines are stone ax-simple and the cool thing about the Sub Zero is that
it is, too--all the parts are designed to be easily replaced and are either
out in the open or behind easily-removed panels. I actually like this
thing; it's like the opposite of our Mazda on which even an oil change made
me want to trade in the car (seriously, Mazda, why locate the oil filter
*under* the exhaust manifold and make only accessible from the top of the
car? I know you guys are in Hiroshima, but that was a LONG time ago. Let's
move on.)

And watching the Sub-Zero guy do his thing, he used a Harbor Freight vacuum
to pull vacuum on the system, and the gauges looked like HF stuff too. And
I feel like if I can rebuild a car engine, I can probably handle this.

Anybody get involved with this stuff? At this point I feel like I'd be less
frustrated in learning to fix these myself than I am trying to get someone
to come out and fix them.
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From jdinnis at gmail.com  Fri May  7 13:23:02 2021
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 14:23:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any of you guys fool around with HVAC/refrigeration?
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u4T9MPRoVRZkTLofqrR8wv-J_A8OaGO-EG=xG1KYJjY2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u4T9MPRoVRZkTLofqrR8wv-J_A8OaGO-EG=xG1KYJjY2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YBJ-d-u-_qiSWrSomYYgOGwH-DUW0-1=Rz3+xSPpETz0A@mail.gmail.com>

Biggest challenge is getting the correct refrigerant and charging the
system with the correct amount.  A lot of times appliance like this do not
have easily accessible charging ports like an automotive A/C system.  You
you have to attach a compression fitting to a tube that got soldered shut
at the factory after they charged it.  If you can get past that bit, the
actual repairs are usually pretty simple.  BUT be sure to inspect the
system really well when you have it apart.  Often times the TEV or orifice
tube will be clogged with metal shavings, letting you know the compressor
is on it's way out.  If you find that is the case, no sense in putting in a
new part unless you are going to replace the compressor too.  If you
replace the compressor, you need to know if the new unit already has the
oil charge in it, or if you need to add that with the refrigerant (usually
they are shipped WITHOUT oil, because different systems use different types
of oil.  ) Getting the correct type and amount here is important.  These
things can get out of hand.

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 2:03 PM Scott Hall <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I just spent the morning calling maybe twenty different results under
> "Appliance Repair" on Google to fix a Sub Zero refrigerator that came with
> the new house.
>
> Literally every one Just Doesn't Want to be Bothered. The Sub Zero dealer
> WILL take my money--$700 for the part--and another $800 for the labor. This
> is an undercounter fridge that I can just toss, and Google tells me the
> part is $150 online. I don't like it $1500, especially when it looks like
> their labor rate is $400/hour (including drive time) and the part has a
> 400% markup.
>
> Separately, I have two 1950s-era Coca Cola bottle vending machines. They
> have sentimental value so I don't want to toss them, but a while back I
> tried calling around to have them repaired because they don't cool. That
> was worse than trying to have a refrigerator fixed.
>
> These are all just compressors attached to evaporators, etc. The vending
> machines are stone ax-simple and the cool thing about the Sub Zero is that
> it is, too--all the parts are designed to be easily replaced and are either
> out in the open or behind easily-removed panels. I actually like this
> thing; it's like the opposite of our Mazda on which even an oil change made
> me want to trade in the car (seriously, Mazda, why locate the oil filter
> *under* the exhaust manifold and make only accessible from the top of the
> car? I know you guys are in Hiroshima, but that was a LONG time ago. Let's
> move on.)
>
> And watching the Sub-Zero guy do his thing, he used a Harbor Freight
> vacuum to pull vacuum on the system, and the gauges looked like HF stuff
> too. And I feel like if I can rebuild a car engine, I can probably handle
> this.
>
> Anybody get involved with this stuff? At this point I feel like I'd be
> less frustrated in learning to fix these myself than I am trying to get
> someone to come out and fix them.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From arvidj999 at gmail.com  Fri May  7 13:27:40 2021
From: arvidj999 at gmail.com (Arvid)
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 14:27:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any of you guys fool around with HVAC/refrigeration?
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u4T9MPRoVRZkTLofqrR8wv-J_A8OaGO-EG=xG1KYJjY2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u4T9MPRoVRZkTLofqrR8wv-J_A8OaGO-EG=xG1KYJjY2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7fc01008-205b-8489-d182-4e2e82af9915@gmail.com>

What little I know about it ...

Yes, the basic concept and tasks are dead simple.

To keep mere mortals from actually fixing things like this there appear to be two show-stoppers.

The first is getting access to a reasonable quantity of the correct refrigerant ... all three aspects - the 'access' part, the 'you do not need a 25lb bottle of it if you can actually get it' part and the 'correct ' part.

You may need an EPA 608 certificate to get the refrigerant. That may still be available by going to this site ... https://ww2.epatest.com/epa-608/ ... and taking the on-line test. I did that many years ago and they sent me the card in the mail. I've never actually used it but it seemed to be what was required to get refrigerant if you need something other than the R-134A topper cans available at the local hardware and auto parts store.

The second is the fittings on the hoses. It seems like categories of refrigerant have threaded fittings that are different from other categories of refrigerant. I know the old R-12 fittings on cars are different than the newer R-134A fittings which may be different than whatever they are currently using. The HF gauge set is listed as R-134A and that defines the threaded fitting on the end of the hoses.

And you now know about as much as I do.

On 5/7/21 2:02 PM, Scott Hall wrote:
> I just spent the morning calling maybe twenty different results under "Appliance Repair" on Google to fix a Sub Zero refrigerator that came with the new house.
>
> Literally every one Just Doesn't Want to be Bothered. The Sub Zero dealer WILL take my money--$700 for the part--and another $800 for the labor. This is an undercounter fridge that I can just toss, and Google tells me the part is $150 online. I don't like it $1500, especially when it looks like their labor rate is $400/hour (including drive time) and the part has a 400% markup.
>
> Separately, I have two 1950s-era Coca Cola bottle vending machines. They have sentimental value so I don't want to toss them, but a while back I tried calling around to have them repaired because they don't cool. That was worse than trying to have a refrigerator fixed.
>
> These are all just compressors attached to evaporators, etc. The vending machines are stone ax-simple and the cool thing about the Sub Zero is that it is, too--all the parts are designed to be easily replaced and are either out in the open or behind easily-removed panels. I actually like this thing; it's like the opposite of our Mazda on which even an oil change made me want to trade in the car (seriously, Mazda, why locate the oil filter *under* the exhaust manifold and make only accessible from the top of the car? I know you guys are in Hiroshima, but that was a LONG time ago. Let's move on.)
>
> And watching the Sub-Zero guy do his thing, he used a Harbor Freight vacuum to pull vacuum on the system, and the gauges looked like HF stuff too. And I feel like if I can rebuild a car engine, I can probably handle this.
>
> Anybody get involved with this stuff? At this point I feel like I'd be less frustrated in learning to fix these myself than I am trying to get someone to come out and fix them.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999 at gmail.com
>
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From jniolon at att.net  Mon May 10 09:46:39 2021
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 10:46:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] mystery cables
References: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2.ref@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2@johns-desktop>

working on windshield washer problem today on a 2008 chevy suburban and found 
two
mystery cables.  Behind the under hood fuse panel in front of the firewall 
(drivers side

neither look like they have ever been used and the truck has 165,000 trouble 
free miles
so I'm wondering what they might be for.... surely one of you guys is a chevy wiring guru, eh ??
pics below

thanks
john

  

   
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From jem at milleredp.com  Mon May 10 09:51:57 2021
From: jem at milleredp.com (jem at milleredp.com)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 08:51:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] mystery cables
In-Reply-To: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2@johns-desktop>
References: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <523ef2161187f066149b0df18e5acf32@milleredp.com>

> neither look like they have ever been used and the truck has 165,000 
> trouble
> free miles

Trailer brake?

John.
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From jniolon at att.net  Mon May 10 10:02:53 2021
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 11:02:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] mystery cables
In-Reply-To: <523ef2161187f066149b0df18e5acf32@milleredp.com>
References: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2@johns-desktop>
 <523ef2161187f066149b0df18e5acf32@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <1UYzMZu5Y3.8aA04eRAVw@johns-desktop>

trailer brake ???  maybe but the brake controller and wiring are connected inside the fuse panel and all that works as it should

----- Original Message -----
From: <jem at milleredp.com>
To: john niolon <jniolon at att.net>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: 5/10/2021 10:51:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] mystery cables
________________________________________________________________________________

> neither look like they have ever been used and the truck has 165,000 
> trouble
> free miles

Trailer brake?

John.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon May 10 12:57:12 2021
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 13:57:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] mystery cables
In-Reply-To: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2@johns-desktop>
References: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <D74673B1-DEC9-4AB9-9688-D4ED39A105EB@gmail.com>



> On May 10, 2021, at 10:47, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
> 
> ?
> working on windshield washer problem today on a 2008 chevy suburban and found two
> mystery cables.  Behind the under hood fuse panel in front of the firewall (drivers side
>  
> neither look like they have ever been used and the truck has 165,000 trouble free miles
> so I'm wondering what they might be for.... surely one of you guys is a chevy wiring guru, eh ??
> pics below

Not uncommon for manufactures to use a single harness for multiple trim lines. Could wet be go something your truck doesn?t have, like a second ac, or the rear seat DVD players. 



From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Mon May 10 13:54:31 2021
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:54:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] mystery cables
In-Reply-To: <D74673B1-DEC9-4AB9-9688-D4ED39A105EB@gmail.com>
References: <1UYzMZWVdo.2bWzGYDL9o2@johns-desktop>
 <D74673B1-DEC9-4AB9-9688-D4ED39A105EB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6fvSsgFm1OJboQ5F46M8AtX8qFF+gsjw4jXLd2ZqhK4Vw@mail.gmail.com>

You should  be able to find a wiring diagram on-line. Note the wire colors
along with the connectors. Shouldn't be that difficult to trace.

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:57 PM David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On May 10, 2021, at 10:47, john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > working on windshield washer problem today on a 2008 chevy suburban and
> found two
> > mystery cables.  Behind the under hood fuse panel in front of the
> firewall (drivers side
> >
> > neither look like they have ever been used and the truck has 165,000
> trouble free miles
> > so I'm wondering what they might be for.... surely one of you guys is a
> chevy wiring guru, eh ??
> > pics below
>
> Not uncommon for manufactures to use a single harness for multiple trim
> lines. Could wet be go something your truck doesn?t have, like a second ac,
> or the rear seat DVD players.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com
>
>
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From eric at megageek.com  Wed May 12 09:21:47 2021
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 11:21:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway Motion alarm question
Message-ID: <OF38D741A8.ED179AFB-ON852586D3.0053FA3F-852586D3.00546488@mail.megageek.com>

I have a driveway motion alarm that has work well for years.  Recently, I 
had work on the house and had to move it.

Now, I get a lot of false alarms on sunny days.  It's (I believe) an 
infrared system.  The sensor just puts out a beam and does not require a 
reflector.

The new location is slight higher (about 1') than the old location and 
moved down a bit.  I can't put it back in the old location do to the 
changes.

If I put the sensor indoors, it works perfectly.  It also works perfectly 
at night or during rain.

The side opposite the sensor is a slight hill with grass.  I have 
completely removed all the grass to make sure that wasn't setting it off.

It seems to get false alarms for about an hour during midday on sunny 
days.

So it seems the sun as something to do with it, but what?  Any ideas I can 
try to stop the false alarms?

Thanks.

Moose
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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Wed May 12 09:41:37 2021
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 10:41:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway Motion alarm question
In-Reply-To: <OF38D741A8.ED179AFB-ON852586D3.0053FA3F-852586D3.00546488@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF38D741A8.ED179AFB-ON852586D3.0053FA3F-852586D3.00546488@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6f+g7Bxui+X0P+vmiFw4eS6Bdr9-3eDjvUY+ivZLum+7A@mail.gmail.com>

Check the angle of the sun during the period it's throwing false alarms and
build a cover or shade to block the sunlight on the sensor during those
times? Should be pretty straight forward.

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 10:22 AM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> I have a driveway motion alarm that has work well for years.  Recently, I
> had work on the house and had to move it.
>
> Now, I get a lot of false alarms on sunny days.  It's (I believe) an
> infrared system.  The sensor just puts out a beam and does not require a
> reflector.
>
> The new location is slight higher (about 1') than the old location and
> moved down a bit.  I can't put it back in the old location do to the
> changes.
>
> If I put the sensor indoors, it works perfectly.  It also works perfectly
> at night or during rain.
>
> The side opposite the sensor is a slight hill with grass.  I have
> completely removed all the grass to make sure that wasn't setting it off.
>
> It seems to get false alarms for about an hour during midday on sunny days.
>
> So it seems the sun as something to do with it, but what?  Any ideas I can
> try to stop the false alarms?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Moose_______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com
>
>
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed May 12 09:43:13 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 10:43:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway Motion alarm question
In-Reply-To: <OF38D741A8.ED179AFB-ON852586D3.0053FA3F-852586D3.00546488@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF38D741A8.ED179AFB-ON852586D3.0053FA3F-852586D3.00546488@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <8E1F065C-F0E2-4268-94CB-D483345AA566@icloud.com>

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer?

Might try moving it to the opposite side of the driveway. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 12, 2021, at 10:22 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

?I have a driveway motion alarm that has work well for years.  Recently, I had work on the house and had to move it. 

Now, I get a lot of false alarms on sunny days.  It's (I believe) an infrared system.  The sensor just puts out a beam and does not require a reflector. 

The new location is slight higher (about 1') than the old location and moved down a bit.  I can't put it back in the old location do to the changes. 

If I put the sensor indoors, it works perfectly.  It also works perfectly at night or during rain. 

The side opposite the sensor is a slight hill with grass.  I have completely removed all the grass to make sure that wasn't setting it off. 

It seems to get false alarms for about an hour during midday on sunny days. 

So it seems the sun as something to do with it, but what?  Any ideas I can try to stop the false alarms? 

Thanks. 

Moose_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com

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From eric at megageek.com  Wed May 12 12:10:37 2021
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 14:10:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Milwaukee chainsaw
Message-ID: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>

Guys,

I've had it with the terrible design of my Dewalt battery operated 
chainsaw.  I even wrote Dewalt to ask if they are going to release a new 
version as I love Dewalt products.

But after not hearing back from them, I'm going Red.

So I'm looking at the Milwaukee 16" chainsaw.  I know you guys have better 
places to buy instead of Amazon, so I'm asking where is the best place to 
buy this, and which one should I get?  These manufactures have dozens of 
products that are all seemingly the same, but have different part numbers 
or model numbers, with differences that you can't find without digging or 
being in the industry.

I don't use an electric to cut down a tree or to buck the wood.  Just to 
remove the limbs of a fell tree.  So the electric is perfect.  So, which 
one should I get, and where should I buy it from. 

Also, I don't plan to get other Milwaukee tools, HOWEVER, if it works out 
cheaper to get the chainsaw without the battery and charger and get 
another tool with it, I'll do that.

Thanks in advance!

Moose.
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed May 12 12:19:03 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 13:19:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Milwaukee chainsaw
In-Reply-To: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <e6bbcc9c-f53f-4b38-27eb-680caaf3765e@icloud.com>

My favorite place to buy tools is cpooutlets.com.

I haven't bought from them lately but have been very pleased.

Peace,
Pat

On 5/12/2021 1:10 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Guys,
>
> I've had it with the terrible design of my Dewalt battery operated 
> chainsaw. ?I even wrote Dewalt to ask if they are going to release a 
> new version as I love Dewalt products.
>
> But after not hearing back from them, I'm going Red.
>
> So I'm looking at the Milwaukee 16" chainsaw. ?I know you guys have 
> better places to buy instead of Amazon, so I'm asking where is the 
> best place to buy this, and which one should I get? ?These 
> manufactures have dozens of products that are all seemingly the same, 
> but have different part numbers or model numbers, with differences 
> that you can't find without digging or being in the industry.
>
> I don't use an electric to cut down a tree or to buck the wood. ?Just 
> to remove the limbs of a fell tree. ?So the electric is perfect. ?So, 
> which one should I get, and where should I buy it from.
>
> Also, I don't plan to get other Milwaukee tools, HOWEVER, if it works 
> out cheaper to get the chainsaw without the battery and charger and 
> get another tool with it, I'll do that.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Moose.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
-- 
We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT

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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Wed May 12 12:21:35 2021
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 11:21:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Milwaukee chainsaw
In-Reply-To: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BE67FE2C-3020-47C2-A4CA-FCE8C89F62CD@mac.com>


OK, a few thoughts.

I?ve bought most of my Milwaukee stuff from Northern Tool.  I think they are fairly price-controlled, but Northern will often kick in a future credit sometimes.

Another brand you might look at is Stihl.  I have a hedge trimmer, and it is a joy to use.  I with I had more hedges to trim!  But I don?t think you can get Stihl online, you need to go to a local dealer, if that is an issue.

-Darrell

> On May 12, 2021, at 11:10 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> 
> Guys, 
> 
> I've had it with the terrible design of my Dewalt battery operated chainsaw.  I even wrote Dewalt to ask if they are going to release a new version as I love Dewalt products. 
> 
> But after not hearing back from them, I'm going Red. 
> 
> So I'm looking at the Milwaukee 16" chainsaw.  I know you guys have better places to buy instead of Amazon, so I'm asking where is the best place to buy this, and which one should I get?  These manufactures have dozens of products that are all seemingly the same, but have different part numbers or model numbers, with differences that you can't find without digging or being in the industry. 
> 
> I don't use an electric to cut down a tree or to buck the wood.  Just to remove the limbs of a fell tree.  So the electric is perfect.  So, which one should I get, and where should I buy it from. 
> 
> Also, I don't plan to get other Milwaukee tools, HOWEVER, if it works out cheaper to get the chainsaw without the battery and charger and get another tool with it, I'll do that. 
> 
> Thanks in advance! 
> 
> Moose. _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
> 

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From lspector at gmail.com  Wed May 12 12:32:14 2021
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 14:32:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Milwaukee chainsaw
In-Reply-To: <BE67FE2C-3020-47C2-A4CA-FCE8C89F62CD@mac.com>
References: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
 <BE67FE2C-3020-47C2-A4CA-FCE8C89F62CD@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNB6WnuJcZA1jMRg1A=paSKp2sCKPSqtL1KfQkt2=4fuApiDA@mail.gmail.com>

I've had good luck with Home Depot's deal of the day. Milwaukee specials
are fairly common, but you may need to wait for the tool you want to go on
sale.

-Larry

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 2:22 PM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:

>
> OK, a few thoughts.
>
> I?ve bought most of my Milwaukee stuff from Northern Tool.  I think they
> are fairly price-controlled, but Northern will often kick in a future
> credit sometimes.
>
> Another brand you might look at is Stihl.  I have a hedge trimmer, and it
> is a joy to use.  I with I had more hedges to trim!  But I don?t think you
> can get Stihl online, you need to go to a local dealer, if that is an issue.
>
> -Darrell
>
> On May 12, 2021, at 11:10 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> I've had it with the terrible design of my Dewalt battery operated
> chainsaw.  I even wrote Dewalt to ask if they are going to release a new
> version as I love Dewalt products.
>
> But after not hearing back from them, I'm going Red.
>
> So I'm looking at the Milwaukee 16" chainsaw.  I know you guys have better
> places to buy instead of Amazon, so I'm asking where is the best place to
> buy this, and which one should I get?  These manufactures have dozens of
> products that are all seemingly the same, but have different part numbers
> or model numbers, with differences that you can't find without digging or
> being in the industry.
>
> I don't use an electric to cut down a tree or to buck the wood.  Just to
> remove the limbs of a fell tree.  So the electric is perfect.  So, which
> one should I get, and where should I buy it from.
>
> Also, I don't plan to get other Milwaukee tools, HOWEVER, if it works out
> cheaper to get the chainsaw without the battery and charger and get another
> tool with it, I'll do that.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Moose. _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lspector at gmail.com
>
>
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From bkahler1 at gmail.com  Wed May 12 12:33:06 2021
From: bkahler1 at gmail.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 14:33:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Milwaukee chainsaw
In-Reply-To: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CADm3DLFx0QNyuTu0xQcBstc205kDVFWFBKqfzjkOrduEo2-qww@mail.gmail.com>

I love my Milwaukee chainsaw.   I've stopped using my gas chainsaw
altogether and just use the Milwaukee.  Be sure and get the 12 amp
battery when you buy it, it lasts forever.  I also use mine for
cutting trees down as well as limbing.  Had it a few years now and it
gets put through the paces regularly.

I have since bought their pole saw with the additional extension and
use it for the high limbs.  Works just as great using the same 12 amp
battery that came with the chainsaw.

As for where to buy, I got mine from Amazon because I had a whole lot
of cash back dollars to spend.  That made the decision easy.

Brad

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 2:11 PM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> I've had it with the terrible design of my Dewalt battery operated chainsaw.  I even wrote Dewalt to ask if they are going to release a new version as I love Dewalt products.
>
> But after not hearing back from them, I'm going Red.
>
> So I'm looking at the Milwaukee 16" chainsaw.  I know you guys have better places to buy instead of Amazon, so I'm asking where is the best place to buy this, and which one should I get?  These manufactures have dozens of products that are all seemingly the same, but have different part numbers or model numbers, with differences that you can't find without digging or being in the industry.
>
> I don't use an electric to cut down a tree or to buck the wood.  Just to remove the limbs of a fell tree.  So the electric is perfect.  So, which one should I get, and where should I buy it from.
>
> Also, I don't plan to get other Milwaukee tools, HOWEVER, if it works out cheaper to get the chainsaw without the battery and charger and get another tool with it, I'll do that.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Moose. _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bkahler1 at gmail.com
>

From marka at maracing.com  Wed May 12 15:25:46 2021
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 17:25:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Milwaukee chainsaw
In-Reply-To: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6F3127FA.4D0E7011-ON852586D3.00633F68-852586D3.0063D9C1@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGN5wXJxLKR6-GUiJRarZRZvammUishQvBuw-Aj3HgMYpg@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

I have the Milwaukee chain saw.  AFAIK there's only one version of the 16"
M18 saw?

I've had good luck with buying Milwaukee from Home Depot and
CPOMilwaukee.com (which is really cpooutlets).  I probably wouldn't buy
from Amazon just due to fears that batteries seem a bit more likely to be
counterfeited there (maybe that fear is out of date).

If you're not in a hurry, chances are you'll be able to find some type of
deal where its bundled with other tools.  The HD batteries do work better
in the chainsaw, but if all you're doing is limbing stuff, it may not
matter.  I've used mine to cut up trees >16" diameter and in that type of
use the HD12 and HD9 batteries do better with continuous sawing without
overheating as compared to the 'regular' m18 batteries.

If you do decide you're going to want the HD batteries, you're almost
certainly not going to want to buy them separately as Milwaukee (like
everyone else) is VERY proud of them.

All of that said... My dad has a Stihl electric saw and it also seems like
a heavy duty saw.  In my case all of my battery stuff is Milwaukee so
staying in the family was good in terms of battery use across all my
tools.  If I didn't have that constraint, I would look hard at the Stihl at
a minimum and probably all the rest of them as well.

Mark

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 2:11 PM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Guys,
>
> I've had it with the terrible design of my Dewalt battery operated
> chainsaw.  I even wrote Dewalt to ask if they are going to release a new
> version as I love Dewalt products.
>
> But after not hearing back from them, I'm going Red.
>
> So I'm looking at the Milwaukee 16" chainsaw.  I know you guys have better
> places to buy instead of Amazon, so I'm asking where is the best place to
> buy this, and which one should I get?  These manufactures have dozens of
> products that are all seemingly the same, but have different part numbers
> or model numbers, with differences that you can't find without digging or
> being in the industry.
>
> I don't use an electric to cut down a tree or to buck the wood.  Just to
> remove the limbs of a fell tree.  So the electric is perfect.  So, which
> one should I get, and where should I buy it from.
>
> Also, I don't plan to get other Milwaukee tools, HOWEVER, if it works out
> cheaper to get the chainsaw without the battery and charger and get another
> tool with it, I'll do that.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Moose. _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>
>
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From jniolon at att.net  Mon May 17 16:37:55 2021
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 17:37:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] electric trailer jacks
References: <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9.ref@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9@johns-desktop>

did my first real trailer trip this past weekend and was generally pleased but 
found several things I need to address.  I can't seem to find the info I'm 
looking for easily.

first... the rig is
2008 Suburban 5.3 L  4 speed auto  with 3.73 axle and 
20" tires
towing package installed stock from factory
GCWR is rated at 13,000   (from the manual)
Stated max trailer weight is 7,000 (from manual)

trailer is a 18' Anderson car hauler  weighing 2,400
Load is a 53 F-100 weighing 3,840  with the engine end ahead
of the first axle...  (truck front end weight is 2300 per the county scales)
total trailer load 6,240

I did the bathroom scale tongue weight thingy and got

575 # without my wife's mobility scooter mounted in front off the truck
715 #  WITH                 " 
                          "                    "                          "

I think I'm within acceptable tongue weight range either way.   But defer to wiser minds

I have a manual tongue jack that's tired and want to switch to electric (for ease and to sake of my shoulders  brand recommendations ??

also  how is the rating of the jacks calculated... is it just the tongue weight or do I need to calculate some part of the load ahead of the axle too?

I-59, I-24, I-75, I-40  is a collection of bad paving, dips, humps, potholes that resemble shallow wells  and made driving a puckering experience
especially for a trailering noob.  Kept my speed under 60 mph and on good roads it was fine but as the condition of roads deteriorated I experienced
a little wander and fishtailing that I could correct but in metro traffic it increased pucker factor by 50-70%

Add that to the lookey-lous that want to eyeball my truck as they drift over closer than they should... and it seemed like NASCAR rubbin is racing time.

Love to hear recommendations on  electric jack ratings , and other wise advise to make next trip more safe and enjoyable..  I know you guys have a
well spring of knowledge you can pour over me.

thanks
John
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Mon May 17 20:55:45 2021
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (Al Fuller)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 22:55:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] electric trailer jacks
In-Reply-To: <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9@johns-desktop>
References: <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <CADkpZwHOUK8akvfnmG0mfaMdcfuetbiQ3=H=HSP8q_FUUJ0XrA@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding the "wandering and fishtailing": my first thought was that too
light tongue weight will cause that, but it sounds like yours is heavy
enough. A weight distributing hitch will help a lot.

Finally, you indicated you're new to trailer towing - raising the
possibility of the driver over correcting. This is what flyers would call
pilot-induced-ocillation. This tends to go away with experience, especially
if you tow regularly.

On Mon, May 17, 2021, 6:38 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

> did my first real trailer trip this past weekend and was generally pleased
> but found several things I need to address.  I can't seem to find the info
> I'm looking for easily.
>
> first... the rig is
> 2008 Suburban 5.3 L  4 speed auto  with 3.73 axle and 20" tires
> towing package installed stock from factory
> GCWR is rated at 13,000   (from the manual)
> Stated max trailer weight is 7,000 (from manual)
>
> trailer is a 18' Anderson car hauler  weighing 2,400
> Load is a 53 F-100 weighing 3,840  with the engine end ahead
> of the first axle...  (truck front end weight is 2300 per the county
> scales)
> total trailer load 6,240
>
> I did the bathroom scale tongue weight thingy and got
>
> 575 # without my wife's mobility scooter mounted in front off the truck
> 715 #  WITH                 "
> "                    "                          "
>
> I think I'm within acceptable tongue weight range either way.   But defer
> to wiser minds
>
> I have a manual tongue jack that's tired and want to switch to electric
> (for ease and to sake of my shoulders  brand recommendations ??
>
> also  how is the rating of the jacks calculated... is it just the tongue
> weight or do I need to calculate some part of the load ahead of the axle
> too?
>
> I-59, I-24, I-75, I-40  is a collection of bad paving, dips, humps,
> potholes that resemble shallow wells  and made driving a puckering
> experience
> especially for a trailering noob.  Kept my speed under 60 mph and on good
> roads it was fine but as the condition of roads deteriorated I experienced
> a little wander and fishtailing that I could correct but in metro traffic
> it increased pucker factor by 50-70%
>
> Add that to the lookey-lous that want to eyeball my truck as they drift
> over closer than they should... and it seemed like NASCAR rubbin is racing
> time.
>
> Love to hear recommendations on  electric jack ratings , and other wise
> advise to make next trip more safe and enjoyable..  I know you guys have a
> well spring of knowledge you can pour over me.
>
> thanks
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com
>
>
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From marka at maracing.com  Mon May 17 21:34:59 2021
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 23:34:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] electric trailer jacks
In-Reply-To: <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9@johns-desktop>
References: <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UYzUHvp6n.24DSiBLeF9@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGMeWhyJip4+KkD54t-92PWFR8dzPHg+Qhg=vgg1j+svXA@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

I don't know anything about electric trailer jack ratings, but I would
assume the load it sees would be a bit less than the actual load at the
trailer ball, since its closer to the wheels/pivot point of the trailer.

I've always heard 10% as the absolute minimum for tongue weight.  If you
were getting sway, I'd move the load forward a bit regardless to see if
that helped.

A friction sway control is super cheap... $30 for one at Horrible Freight.
No question I'd add one as insurance.

Mark

On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 6:38 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

> did my first real trailer trip this past weekend and was generally pleased
> but found several things I need to address.  I can't seem to find the info
> I'm looking for easily.
>
> first... the rig is
> 2008 Suburban 5.3 L  4 speed auto  with 3.73 axle and 20" tires
> towing package installed stock from factory
> GCWR is rated at 13,000   (from the manual)
> Stated max trailer weight is 7,000 (from manual)
>
> trailer is a 18' Anderson car hauler  weighing 2,400
> Load is a 53 F-100 weighing 3,840  with the engine end ahead
> of the first axle...  (truck front end weight is 2300 per the county
> scales)
> total trailer load 6,240
>
> I did the bathroom scale tongue weight thingy and got
>
> 575 # without my wife's mobility scooter mounted in front off the truck
> 715 #  WITH                 "
> "                    "                          "
>
> I think I'm within acceptable tongue weight range either way.   But defer
> to wiser minds
>
> I have a manual tongue jack that's tired and want to switch to electric
> (for ease and to sake of my shoulders  brand recommendations ??
>
> also  how is the rating of the jacks calculated... is it just the tongue
> weight or do I need to calculate some part of the load ahead of the axle
> too?
>
> I-59, I-24, I-75, I-40  is a collection of bad paving, dips, humps,
> potholes that resemble shallow wells  and made driving a puckering
> experience
> especially for a trailering noob.  Kept my speed under 60 mph and on good
> roads it was fine but as the condition of roads deteriorated I experienced
> a little wander and fishtailing that I could correct but in metro traffic
> it increased pucker factor by 50-70%
>
> Add that to the lookey-lous that want to eyeball my truck as they drift
> over closer than they should... and it seemed like NASCAR rubbin is racing
> time.
>
> Love to hear recommendations on  electric jack ratings , and other wise
> advise to make next trip more safe and enjoyable..  I know you guys have a
> well spring of knowledge you can pour over me.
>
> thanks
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>
>
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue May 18 05:37:57 2021
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 07:37:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPiAjuvDtpbo=ANVWo-BScSYrM9yfxFSK4mmc-tfiXWwg@mail.gmail.com>

Calling all oracles...

I need to buy a couple of portable compressors for a fairly high-end
use where reliability may be more important than price.  In the ~2 HP,
26-ish gallon range, I have

Speedaire
Belaire
Quincy
Northstar
Campbell Hausfield

Any opinion as to whether I should choose one over the other?

Kobalt may be an option, but the additional paperwork isn't worth the
savings to me.

Jeff Scarbrough
Undisclosed Location, Ga.

From stearman809 at gmail.com  Tue May 18 12:01:48 2021
From: stearman809 at gmail.com (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 13:01:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CPiAjuvDtpbo=ANVWo-BScSYrM9yfxFSK4mmc-tfiXWwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CPiAjuvDtpbo=ANVWo-BScSYrM9yfxFSK4mmc-tfiXWwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401d74c0f$dfd52ff0$9f7f8fd0$@GMail.com>

If they're still actually Quincy, that would be a top unit.  Probably the
best unknit on the market in the 70's through 90's at least.  IR used to be
good too.

Speedaire is whatever Grainger sells - varies by model and probably date.
Campbell Hausfeld used to be consumer junk, but maybe they're better now?.

No idea about Northstar or Belaire.

Eaton in Ohio (family company, NOT the well-known conglomerate Eaton
Corporation) sells decent compressor pumps, Chinese but their design copy
and warrantee.  No idea if they have units in your size.

Karl


-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jeff
Scarbrough
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:38 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor

Calling all oracles...

I need to buy a couple of portable compressors for a fairly high-end
use where reliability may be more important than price.  In the ~2 HP,
26-ish gallon range, I have

Speedaire
Belaire
Quincy
Northstar
Campbell Hausfield

Any opinion as to whether I should choose one over the other?

Kobalt may be an option, but the additional paperwork isn't worth the
savings to me.

Jeff Scarbrough
Undisclosed Location, Ga.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/stearman809 at gmail.com


From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Tue May 18 13:16:41 2021
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 12:16:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor
In-Reply-To: <002401d74c0f$dfd52ff0$9f7f8fd0$@GMail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CPiAjuvDtpbo=ANVWo-BScSYrM9yfxFSK4mmc-tfiXWwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401d74c0f$dfd52ff0$9f7f8fd0$@GMail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgZv0zDbCKNpxb8-GbomBbicGW+j0-UFKBL4w_YM4+pKcg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jeff,

Well, it is not the exact answer to your question (don't you like it when
folks respond this way) :-), but Saylor-Beall is 100% USA-made, and as good
as they come. They have 1.5, 2.0, 3.0, etc. HP vertical and horizontal
compressors, but their smallest tank for an electric motor is 60 gallon. It
would be the last compressor that you would ever need to buy:

https://www.saylor-beall.com/tank-mounted-vertical/

If the pricing new is too high, they are on eBay used,

But again, the only small tank model they make is a 30 gallon gasoline
powered compressor at the bottom of this list:
https://www.saylor-beall.com/tank-mounted-horizontal/

To actually answer your question, though, among the ones you listed, I
would go with Quincy if their small compressors still are made in the USA.

best,

doug


On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:05 AM Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:

> If they're still actually Quincy, that would be a top unit.  Probably the
> best unknit on the market in the 70's through 90's at least.  IR used to be
> good too.
>
> Speedaire is whatever Grainger sells - varies by model and probably date.
> Campbell Hausfeld used to be consumer junk, but maybe they're better now?.
>
> No idea about Northstar or Belaire.
>
> Eaton in Ohio (family company, NOT the well-known conglomerate Eaton
> Corporation) sells decent compressor pumps, Chinese but their design copy
> and warrantee.  No idea if they have units in your size.
>
> Karl
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> Jeff
> Scarbrough
> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:38 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor
>
> Calling all oracles...
>
> I need to buy a couple of portable compressors for a fairly high-end
> use where reliability may be more important than price.  In the ~2 HP,
> 26-ish gallon range, I have
>
> Speedaire
> Belaire
> Quincy
> Northstar
> Campbell Hausfield
>
> Any opinion as to whether I should choose one over the other?
>
> Kobalt may be an option, but the additional paperwork isn't worth the
> savings to me.
>
> Jeff Scarbrough
> Undisclosed Location, Ga.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/stearman809 at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From stearman809 at gmail.com  Tue May 18 15:52:31 2021
From: stearman809 at gmail.com (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 16:52:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
Message-ID: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>

Last time I sharpened my 21" walk-behind mower blade I thought of something
that's never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25
years..

 

On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter
keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer
side, nothing.

 

One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way
would be across.  It's been off many times and there's no way to tell how it
was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.

 

Power stroke shouldn't matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the
other?

 

Thanks!
Karl

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From maynerdfamily at msn.com  Tue May 18 15:55:35 2021
From: maynerdfamily at msn.com (Brian and Wendy Warrick)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 21:55:35 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
Message-ID: <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.

Brian
Nampa, ID

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston


Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..



On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.



One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.



Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?



Thanks!
Karl
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Tue May 18 15:56:13 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 16:56:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
Message-ID: <58719156-93E2-420C-A8DA-4F553BCEFD52@icloud.com>

Can?t say for sure but I would expect the engine to be balanced without blade installed so it ?shouldn?t? make a difference. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 18, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
 
On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
 
One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
 
Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
 
Thanks!
Karl
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue May 18 15:56:40 2021
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:56:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
Message-ID: <CBF5493E-DE91-499F-A755-CD66B0DFD285@groupwbench.org>

I can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, they'd have keyed it.

jim

> On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>  
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>  
> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>  
> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>  
> Thanks!
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org>
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From stearman809 at gmail.com  Tue May 18 16:49:23 2021
From: stearman809 at gmail.com (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:49:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <CBF5493E-DE91-499F-A755-CD66B0DFD285@groupwbench.org>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <CBF5493E-DE91-499F-A755-CD66B0DFD285@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <17981ab6138.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.com>

They reason I thought of it is that aircraft propellers are supposed to be 
phased in a certain way.

My Stearman has a 7 cylinder radial engine and when it has the Macaulay 
hollow steel prop on it the prop goes in line with the master rod of the 
engine (vertical) when cylinder 1 (top) is at TDC, but a wood prop is 
installed 90 degrees from that, or horizontally when 1 is at TDC.

The wood prop and it's steel hub are maybe 30 pounds lighter than Macauley. 
 It's not lore, it's in the Type Certificate.  And people have put props on 
wrong and it's smoother once they remount then properly.

On May 18, 2021 4:56:44 PM Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> I can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, they'd 
> have keyed it.
>
> jim
>
>
>> On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something 
>> that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>
>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter 
>> keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer 
>> side, nothing.
>>
>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way 
>> would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how 
>> it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>>
>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the 
>> other?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Karl
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue May 18 16:59:05 2021
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 18:59:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <17981ab6138.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <CBF5493E-DE91-499F-A755-CD66B0DFD285@groupwbench.org>
 <17981ab6138.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87A1A10A-8446-4BF2-BD2E-0A5423843D0D@groupwbench.org>

These are both two blade props? I would love to know why it makes a difference. Especially that the two props get mounted differently.

jim

> On May 18, 2021, at 6:49 PM, Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> They reason I thought of it is that aircraft propellers are supposed to be phased in a certain way.
> 
> My Stearman has a 7 cylinder radial engine and when it has the Macaulay hollow steel prop on it the prop goes in line with the master rod of the engine (vertical) when cylinder 1 (top) is at TDC, but a wood prop is installed 90 degrees from that, or horizontally when 1 is at TDC.
> 
> The wood prop and it's steel hub are maybe 30 pounds lighter than Macauley.  It's not lore, it's in the Type Certificate.  And people have put props on wrong and it's smoother once they remount then properly.
> 
> On May 18, 2021 4:56:44 PM Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> 
>> I can't think of a reason it would matter. Also, I think if it did, they'd have keyed it.
>> 
>> jim
>> 
>>> On May 18, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com <mailto:stearman809 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>>  
>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>>  
>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>>>  
>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>>>  
>>> Thanks!
>>> Karl
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org
> 

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From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue May 18 18:34:44 2021
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:34:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>

Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit 
running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then 
finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in 
it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing 
loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade 
as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.

Bob

On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I 
> can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the 
> adapter differently.
>
> Brian
> Nampa, ID
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl 
> Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
> *To:* 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>
> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of 
> something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of 
> mower for 25 years..
>
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square 
> adapter keyed to the crankshaft.? The mounting point is square, no 
> pins, no longer side, nothing.
>
> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other 
> way would be across. ?It?s been off many times and there?s no way to 
> tell how it was mounted originally. The manual is silent on this.
>
> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or 
> the other?
>
> Thanks!
> Karl
>
>

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From tjcora at icloud.com  Tue May 18 19:44:44 2021
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 21:44:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
Message-ID: <2A1382BC-FDBD-461B-B28C-2BE8F3D3500E@icloud.com>

As others have noted, I can?t imagine any reason why it would make a difference. Multiple blade mowers require you to pay attention to that, for obvious reasons. My old Troy Bilt had keyed hubs and a cogged belt driving them, so that was easy (as long as you didn?t dork up replacing the cogged belt). My current Exmark requires you to actually think about the blade orientations when you install them:-)

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 18 May 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>  
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>  
> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>  
> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>  
> Thanks!
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com


From jdinnis at gmail.com  Tue May 18 19:58:42 2021
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 20:58:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <2A1382BC-FDBD-461B-B28C-2BE8F3D3500E@icloud.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <2A1382BC-FDBD-461B-B28C-2BE8F3D3500E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YBvika7pYCrembr6C7oOiLEYFGizvpcE0U6qnWkjXxpVw@mail.gmail.com>

Depends on the mower.  Most newer commercial mowers don't key the blade to
the shaft at all.  Instead they use friction washers to keep them
spinning.  That way if you hit something the washers can slip and absorb
the impact instead of damaging something.  This approach does require
sturdier spindle bearings to deal with the increased vibration when the
blades are out of time.  But they quickly slip the betts re-sync
themselves.

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:45 PM Thomas Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:

> As others have noted, I can?t imagine any reason why it would make a
> difference. Multiple blade mowers require you to pay attention to that, for
> obvious reasons. My old Troy Bilt had keyed hubs and a cogged belt driving
> them, so that was easy (as long as you didn?t dork up replacing the cogged
> belt). My current Exmark requires you to actually think about the blade
> orientations when you install them:-)
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
> > On 18 May 2021, at 5:52 PM, Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of
> something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower
> for 25 years..
> >
> > On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square
> adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no
> longer side, nothing.
> >
> > One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way
> would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how
> it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
> >
> > Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or
> the other?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Karl
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Tue May 18 20:38:02 2021
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 19:38:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bob,

I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a
Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do
maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with
the blade removed for sharpening.

For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the
blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance
field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the
motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is
possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the
engine, however.

You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire
without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard
to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the
crankshaft).

best,

doug

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running
> suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took
> it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused
> the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the
> spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a
> position sensor on it.
>
> Bob
>
> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>
> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't
> see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter
> differently.
>
> Brian
> Nampa, ID
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>
> <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek
> <stearman809 at gmail.com> <stearman809 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
> *To:* 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>
>
> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of
> something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower
> for 25 years..
>
>
>
> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter
> keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer
> side, nothing.
>
>
>
> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way
> would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how
> it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>
>
>
> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the
> other?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
> Karl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Tue May 18 20:50:47 2021
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:50:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D284D599-E460-40E7-B141-A7F15BFC93E8@icloud.com>

Sounds like a valid experiment. Can you guys compare notes to see if your machines are more or less the same age?

Running without the blade out not to be an issue. The engine should have an air vane governor...

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 18 May 2021, at 10:38 PM, old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
> 
> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
> 
> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
> 
> best,
> 
> doug 
> 
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.
>> 
>> Brian
>> Nampa, ID
>> 
>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>  
>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>  
>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>  
>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>>  
>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>>  
>> Thanks!
>> Karl
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Tue May 18 20:52:18 2021
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:52:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgZv0zDbCKNpxb8-GbomBbicGW+j0-UFKBL4w_YM4+pKcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CPiAjuvDtpbo=ANVWo-BScSYrM9yfxFSK4mmc-tfiXWwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401d74c0f$dfd52ff0$9f7f8fd0$@GMail.com>
 <CAG1pxgZv0zDbCKNpxb8-GbomBbicGW+j0-UFKBL4w_YM4+pKcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FAFAF22-F51B-4F1C-A3C4-F4097C255220@icloud.com>

Quite timely! The bottom of my current compressor?s tank has rotted thru (ssssssssssssssss), so I?m in the market.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 18 May 2021, at 3:16 PM, old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Well, it is not the exact answer to your question (don't you like it when folks respond this way) :-), but Saylor-Beall is 100% USA-made, and as good as they come. They have 1.5, 2.0, 3.0, etc. HP vertical and horizontal compressors, but their smallest tank for an electric motor is 60 gallon. It would be the last compressor that you would ever need to buy:
> 
> https://www.saylor-beall.com/tank-mounted-vertical/
> 
> If the pricing new is too high, they are on eBay used, 
> 
> But again, the only small tank model they make is a 30 gallon gasoline powered compressor at the bottom of this list:
> https://www.saylor-beall.com/tank-mounted-horizontal/
> 
> To actually answer your question, though, among the ones you listed, I would go with Quincy if their small compressors still are made in the USA.
> 
> best,
> 
> doug
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:05 AM Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com> wrote:
> If they're still actually Quincy, that would be a top unit.  Probably the
> best unknit on the market in the 70's through 90's at least.  IR used to be
> good too.
> 
> Speedaire is whatever Grainger sells - varies by model and probably date.
> Campbell Hausfeld used to be consumer junk, but maybe they're better now?.
> 
> No idea about Northstar or Belaire.
> 
> Eaton in Ohio (family company, NOT the well-known conglomerate Eaton
> Corporation) sells decent compressor pumps, Chinese but their design copy
> and warrantee.  No idea if they have units in your size.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Scarbrough
> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:38 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor
> 
> Calling all oracles...
> 
> I need to buy a couple of portable compressors for a fairly high-end
> use where reliability may be more important than price.  In the ~2 HP,
> 26-ish gallon range, I have
> 
> Speedaire
> Belaire
> Quincy
> Northstar
> Campbell Hausfield
> 
> Any opinion as to whether I should choose one over the other?
> 
> Kobalt may be an option, but the additional paperwork isn't worth the
> savings to me.
> 
> Jeff Scarbrough
> Undisclosed Location, Ga.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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> 
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue May 18 20:53:46 2021
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 19:53:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>

re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance 
field to signal the position for coil firing ..."

That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise 
in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). 
IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife 
Stalkers.'

I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil 
and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very 
simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the 
spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a 
cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. 
Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, 
apparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the 
Hall Effect sensor.

bs

On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> I believe?you, of course, but I have never heard this?before.? I have 
> a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do 
> maintenance?this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire 
> with the blade removed for sharpening.
>
> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on 
> the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the 
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum 
> sump of the motor protrudes?through the steel deck of the mower, so I 
> suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade 
> and the sump of the engine, however.
>
> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will 
> fire without the blade?attached (if it does, I will not let it run as 
> it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached 
> to the crankshaft).
>
> best,
>
> doug
>
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net 
> <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>     Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
>     running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything,
>     then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had
>     a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is
>     part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if
>     you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>
>     Bob
>
>     On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>>     I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a
>>     thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would
>>     have designed the adapter differently.
>>
>>     Brian
>>     Nampa, ID
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>
>>     <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek
>>     <stearman809 at gmail.com> <mailto:stearman809 at gmail.com>
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>>     *To:* 'shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>     <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>     <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>     *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>
>>     Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of
>>     something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand
>>     of mower for 25 years..
>>
>>     On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the
>>     square adapter keyed to the crankshaft. The mounting point is
>>     square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>
>>     One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the
>>     other way would be across.? It?s been off many times and there?s
>>     no way to tell how it was mounted originally.? The manual is
>>     silent on this.
>>
>>     Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one
>>     way or the other?
>>
>>     Thanks!
>>     Karl
>>
>>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>
>     http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
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>

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From tjcora at icloud.com  Tue May 18 21:03:26 2021
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 23:03:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>

You?re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of those small engines? Bog simple indeed!

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
> 
> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife Stalkers.'
> 
> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
> 
> bs
> 
> On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
>> 
>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
>> 
>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
>> 
>> best,
>> 
>> doug 
>> 
>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem;             supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.
>>> 
>>> Brian
>>> Nampa, ID
>>> 
>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>>  
>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>>  
>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>>  
>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>>>  
>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>>>  
>>> Thanks!
>>> Karl
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue May 18 21:14:48 2021
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 20:14:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
 <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <07a3532e-f33e-7d00-2ad5-43ecdf57a480@comcast.net>

Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines; 
they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a 
really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them 
is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'

On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
> You?re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of those small engines? Bog simple indeed!
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
>> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
>>
>> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife Stalkers.'
>>
>> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
>>
>> bs
>>
>> On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
>>>
>>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
>>>
>>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>> doug
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem;             supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>> Nampa, ID
>>>>
>>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>>>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>>>   
>>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>>>   
>>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>>>   
>>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>>>>   
>>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>>>>   
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Karl
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>


From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed May 19 04:14:34 2021
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 06:14:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <07a3532e-f33e-7d00-2ad5-43ecdf57a480@comcast.net>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
 <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>
 <07a3532e-f33e-7d00-2ad5-43ecdf57a480@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CNr0VscHxcSoLDbZ5o+erBCSZ+0NdSsoP-Wa6DxrjTzhw@mail.gmail.com>

Not to mention that there are two magnetos.  You don't want your lawn mower
quitting in mid-air.

On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines;
> they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a
> really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them
> is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'
>
> On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
> > You?re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of
> those small engines? Bog simple indeed!
> >
> > ?
> > Tom Coradeschi
> > tjcora at icloud.com
> >
> >
> >> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
> >>
> >> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise
> in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me).
> IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife
> Stalkers.'
> >>
> >> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil
> and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very
> simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I
> use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the
> distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to
> me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the
> lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
> >>
> >> bs
> >>
> >> On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> >>> Hi Bob,
> >>>
> >>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have
> a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do
> maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with
> the blade removed for sharpening.
> >>>
> >>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on
> the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump
> of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it
> is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
> the engine, however.
> >>>
> >>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will
> fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is
> hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the
> crankshaft).
> >>>
> >>> best,
> >>>
> >>> doug
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
> running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then
> finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it
> that caused the problem;             supposedly the blade is part of a
> timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the
> blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
> >>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I
> can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the
> adapter differently.
> >>>>
> >>>> Brian
> >>>> Nampa, ID
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl
> Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
> >>>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> >>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
> >>>>
> >>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of
> something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower
> for 25 years..
> >>>>
> >>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square
> adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no
> longer side, nothing.
> >>>>
> >>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other
> way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell
> how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way
> or the other?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks!
> >>>> Karl
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >>>
> >>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >>
> >> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From jdinnis at gmail.com  Wed May 19 04:23:29 2021
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 05:23:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CNr0VscHxcSoLDbZ5o+erBCSZ+0NdSsoP-Wa6DxrjTzhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
 <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>
 <07a3532e-f33e-7d00-2ad5-43ecdf57a480@comcast.net>
 <CAO8Q7CNr0VscHxcSoLDbZ5o+erBCSZ+0NdSsoP-Wa6DxrjTzhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YC1M-5Q_oWbvtnDtxuV78pOJ3KjqHL-+h5OVNmgCWi5dA@mail.gmail.com>

The whole propeller thing is really overstated.  It is just there to keep
the pilot cool.  If the propeller stops turning, the pilot often begins
sweating.

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not to mention that there are two magnetos.  You don't want your lawn
> mower quitting in mid-air.
>
> On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines;
>> they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a
>> really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them
>> is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'
>>
>> On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
>> > You?re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of
>> those small engines? Bog simple indeed!
>> >
>> > ?
>> > Tom Coradeschi
>> > tjcora at icloud.com
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the
>> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
>> >>
>> >> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise
>> in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me).
>> IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife
>> Stalkers.'
>> >>
>> >> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the
>> coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very
>> simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I
>> use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the
>> distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to
>> me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the
>> lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
>> >>
>> >> bs
>> >>
>> >> On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>> >>> Hi Bob,
>> >>>
>> >>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have
>> a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do
>> maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with
>> the blade removed for sharpening.
>> >>>
>> >>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on
>> the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the
>> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump
>> of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it
>> is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
>> the engine, however.
>> >>>
>> >>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will
>> fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is
>> hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the
>> crankshaft).
>> >>>
>> >>> best,
>> >>>
>> >>> doug
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
>> running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then
>> finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it
>> that caused the problem;             supposedly the blade is part of a
>> timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the
>> blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bob
>> >>>
>> >>> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>> >>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I
>> can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the
>> adapter differently.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Brian
>> >>>> Nampa, ID
>> >>>>
>> >>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of
>> Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>> >>>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> >>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of
>> something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower
>> for 25 years..
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square
>> adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no
>> longer side, nothing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other
>> way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell
>> how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way
>> or the other?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks!
>> >>>> Karl
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>
>> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> >>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>> >>>
>> >>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> >> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>> >>
>> >> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>> >
>> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed May 19 05:51:41 2021
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 11:51:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YC1M-5Q_oWbvtnDtxuV78pOJ3KjqHL-+h5OVNmgCWi5dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
 <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>
 <07a3532e-f33e-7d00-2ad5-43ecdf57a480@comcast.net>
 <CAO8Q7CNr0VscHxcSoLDbZ5o+erBCSZ+0NdSsoP-Wa6DxrjTzhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANuE7YC1M-5Q_oWbvtnDtxuV78pOJ3KjqHL-+h5OVNmgCWi5dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <341154453.1240720.1621425101785@mail.yahoo.com>

 I dunno.? I always heard that prop pilots were always cool.? They screw their way across the country whereas jet pilots just suck and blow.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
To: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

The whole propeller thing is really overstated.? It is just there to keep the pilot cool.? If the propeller stops turning, the pilot often begins sweating. 

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

Not to mention that there are two magnetos.? You don't want your lawn mower quitting in mid-air.
On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines; 
they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a 
really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them 
is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'

On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
> You?re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of those small engines? Bog simple indeed!
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
>> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
>>
>> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife Stalkers.'
>>
>> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
>>
>> bs
>>
>> On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.? I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
>>>
>>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
>>>
>>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>> doug
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem;? ? ? ? ? ? ?supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>> Nampa, ID
>>>>
>>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>>>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>>>? ?
>>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>>>? ?
>>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.? The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>>>? ?
>>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.? It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.? The manual is silent on this.
>>>>? ?
>>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>>>>? ?
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Karl
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you?? =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown? =
=================================_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed May 19 06:07:35 2021
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 12:07:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <674086163.1251051.1621426055740@mail.yahoo.com>

 I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.? On those motors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the flywheel on the opposite end.? They will run without the blade attached.? Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose model for that application.? The economies of scale favor a more generic design.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com>
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

Hi Bob,
I believe?you, of course, but I have never heard this?before.? I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance?this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes?through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade?attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
best,
doug?
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

  Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
 
 Bob
 
 On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
  
  I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.  
   Brian  Nampa, ID   
   From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
 To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston ?     Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..  ?  On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.? The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.  ?  One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.? It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.? The manual is silent on this.  ?  Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?  ?  Thanks!
 Karl    
 
 
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed May 19 06:32:12 2021
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 05:32:12 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <674086163.1251051.1621426055740@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <674086163.1251051.1621426055740@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <032abbe9-bef0-fd3d-0b13-63682df1d73d@comcast.net>

All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like 
Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I 
tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, 
basically disposable appliances are built as simply and cheaply as 
possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't 
broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack could disrupt a magnetic 
field somehow. Like I mentioned, the Pertronix in my Healey 100 
apparently fires off the cam lobes, with no magnet required to trigger 
(what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.


On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
> I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the 
> blade but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.? On those 
> motors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto 
> in the flywheel on the opposite end.? They will run without the blade 
> attached.? Triggering off the blade means that motor is a 
> special-purpose model for that application.? The economies of scale 
> favor a more generic design.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com>
> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I believe?you, of course, but I have never heard this?before.? I have 
> a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do 
> maintenance?this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire 
> with the blade removed for sharpening.
>
> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on 
> the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the 
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum 
> sump of the motor protrudes?through the steel deck of the mower, so I 
> suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade 
> and the sump of the engine, however.
>
> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will 
> fire without the blade?attached (if it does, I will not let it run as 
> it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached 
> to the crankshaft).
>
> best,
>
> doug
>
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net 
> <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>     Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
>     running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything,
>     then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had
>     a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is
>     part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if
>     you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>
>     Bob
>
>     On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>>     I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a
>>     thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would
>>     have designed the adapter differently.
>>
>>     Brian
>>     Nampa, ID
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>
>>     <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek
>>     <stearman809 at gmail.com> <mailto:stearman809 at gmail.com>
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>>     *To:* 'shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>     <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>     <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>     *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>     Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of
>>     something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand
>>     of mower for 25 years..
>>     On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the
>>     square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.? The mounting point is
>>     square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>     One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the
>>     other way would be across.? It?s been off many times and there?s
>>     no way to tell how it was mounted originally. The manual is
>>     silent on this.
>>     Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one
>>     way or the other?
>>     Thanks!
>>     Karl
>>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>
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>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>     <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
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>
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> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com 
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>

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From jdinnis at gmail.com  Wed May 19 06:37:00 2021
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 07:37:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <341154453.1240720.1621425101785@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
 <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>
 <07a3532e-f33e-7d00-2ad5-43ecdf57a480@comcast.net>
 <CAO8Q7CNr0VscHxcSoLDbZ5o+erBCSZ+0NdSsoP-Wa6DxrjTzhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANuE7YC1M-5Q_oWbvtnDtxuV78pOJ3KjqHL-+h5OVNmgCWi5dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <341154453.1240720.1621425101785@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YAP_BRLW+zC8QCqAGAOGL-Z3J+fRLj1R9PDqrQZR-grGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Common misconception.  You have to remember that almost all props are
driven by either reciprocating engines (suck, squeeze, bang, blow) or
turbine engines (one long continious blow job).

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 6:51 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

> I dunno.  I always heard that prop pilots were always cool.  They screw
> their way across the country whereas jet pilots just suck and blow.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
> To: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>
> The whole propeller thing is really overstated.  It is just there to keep
> the pilot cool.  If the propeller stops turning, the pilot often begins
> sweating.
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Not to mention that there are two magnetos.  You don't want your lawn
> mower quitting in mid-air.
>
> On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines;
> they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a
> really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them
> is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'
>
> On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
> > You?re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of
> those small engines? Bog simple indeed!
> >
> > ?
> > Tom Coradeschi
> > tjcora at icloud.com
> >
> >
> >> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
> >>
> >> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise
> in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me).
> IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife
> Stalkers.'
> >>
> >> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil
> and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very
> simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I
> use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the
> distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to
> me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the
> lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
> >>
> >> bs
> >>
> >> On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> >>> Hi Bob,
> >>>
> >>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have
> a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do
> maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with
> the blade removed for sharpening.
> >>>
> >>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on
> the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the
> inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump
> of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it
> is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
> the engine, however.
> >>>
> >>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will
> fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is
> hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the
> crankshaft).
> >>>
> >>> best,
> >>>
> >>> doug
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit
> running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then
> finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it
> that caused the problem;             supposedly the blade is part of a
> timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the
> blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
> >>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I
> can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the
> adapter differently.
> >>>>
> >>>> Brian
> >>>> Nampa, ID
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl
> Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
> >>>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> >>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
> >>>>
> >>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of
> something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower
> for 25 years..
> >>>>
> >>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square
> adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no
> longer side, nothing.
> >>>>
> >>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other
> way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell
> how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way
> or the other?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks!
> >>>> Karl
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >>>
> >>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >>
> >> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
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>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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>
>
>
> --
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
>
> =================================
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
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>
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>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed May 19 06:48:27 2021
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 07:48:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <032abbe9-bef0-fd3d-0b13-63682df1d73d@comcast.net>
References: <032abbe9-bef0-fd3d-0b13-63682df1d73d@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <EAFEAD30-E349-4CED-B571-2B0BAAB283FA@icloud.com>

I?ve had a no start condition a couple times with what appeared to be a good engine. Turned out the flywheel key was bad, it had sheared. 

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

? All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, basically disposable appliances are built as simply and cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.


On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
> I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.  On those motors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the flywheel on the opposite end.  They will run without the blade attached.  Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose model for that application.  The economies of scale favor a more generic design.
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com>
> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.  I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
> 
> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
> 
> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
> 
> best,
> 
> doug 
> 
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.
>> 
>> Brian
>> Nampa, ID
>> 
>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>  
>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>  
>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.  The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>  
>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.  It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.  The manual is silent on this.
>>  
>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>>  
>> Thanks!
>> Karl
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com
> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed May 19 07:46:41 2021
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:46:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <032abbe9-bef0-fd3d-0b13-63682df1d73d@comcast.net>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <674086163.1251051.1621426055740@mail.yahoo.com>
 <032abbe9-bef0-fd3d-0b13-63682df1d73d@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <233387834.1260334.1621432001968@mail.yahoo.com>

 Like I said, I would be mildly surprised.? Knowing how hard they work to squeeze every penny out of a high-volume product I could see that happening. 

That Pertronix sensor must be a precision device to be that critical on the magnetic circuit.? The old school parts had a magnet wheel that slipped over the shaft.? The Crane on my TR6 uses a light-based interrupter wheel.? It has worked flawlessly for the past 20-odd years.? But I have an Allison on my TR8.? We'll see how well it holds up. 
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:32 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

 All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, basically disposable appliances are built as simply and cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.
 
 
 On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
  
 
  I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.? On those motors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the flywheel on the opposite end.? They will run without the blade attached.? Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose model for that application.? The economies of scale favor a more generic design.
   
  Dave 
 
   
   
  -----Original Message-----
 From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com>
 To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
 Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
 Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
 
   Hi Bob, 
  I believe?you, of course, but I have never heard this?before.? I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance?this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening. 
  For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes?through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however. 
  You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade?attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft). 
  best, 
  doug?  
   On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
  
  Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
 
 Bob
 
 On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
  
  I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.  
   Brian  Nampa, ID   
   From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
 To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston ?     Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..  ?  On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.? The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.  ?  One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.? It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.? The manual is silent on this.  ?  Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?  ?  Thanks!
 Karl    
 
 
  _______________________________________________
 
 Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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 Suggested annual donation? $12.96
 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
 
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed May 19 07:47:55 2021
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:47:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YAP_BRLW+zC8QCqAGAOGL-Z3J+fRLj1R9PDqrQZR-grGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d74c30$1ae5adc0$50b10940$@GMail.com>
 <MW2PR07MB397889AB84D2574BA8B851DCBB2C9@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <5ff69898-d0ef-8db4-db6d-f57f9b5bbdcf@comcast.net>
 <CAG1pxgaBSqYewhJsaMJPPRkp6xBJ5YNUE5vSLVO4RCGhrSgFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7e18e49a-63ec-bf3a-ccfd-429ab689d2f2@comcast.net>
 <09849A79-7FD8-4055-B9E4-1D333CCCE8E2@icloud.com>
 <07a3532e-f33e-7d00-2ad5-43ecdf57a480@comcast.net>
 <CAO8Q7CNr0VscHxcSoLDbZ5o+erBCSZ+0NdSsoP-Wa6DxrjTzhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANuE7YC1M-5Q_oWbvtnDtxuV78pOJ3KjqHL-+h5OVNmgCWi5dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <341154453.1240720.1621425101785@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CANuE7YAP_BRLW+zC8QCqAGAOGL-Z3J+fRLj1R9PDqrQZR-grGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1476986324.1110337.1621432075946@mail.yahoo.com>

 That would break the hearts of the prop pilots who told me that.
;-)
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>
Cc: fishplate at gmail.com <fishplate at gmail.com>; Shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:37 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

Common misconception.? You have to remember that almost all props are driven by either reciprocating engines (suck, squeeze, bang, blow) or turbine engines (one long continious blow job).? 

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 6:51 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

 I dunno.? I always heard that prop pilots were always cool.? They screw their way across the country whereas jet pilots just suck and blow.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
To: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 5:23 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

The whole propeller thing is really overstated.? It is just there to keep the pilot cool.? If the propeller stops turning, the pilot often begins sweating. 

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 5:15 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

Not to mention that there are two magnetos.? You don't want your lawn mower quitting in mid-air.
On Tue, May 18, 2021, 23:15 Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

Magnetos still power the vast majority of small aircraft piston engines; 
they're a bit more complicated though. Mags in good nick will throw a 
really hot spark; they're always 'hot' and the only way to disable them 
is to ground the primary coil by a 'P lead.'

On 5/18/2021 8:03 PM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote:
> You?re almost certainly looking at a magneto ignition system in all of those small engines? Bog simple indeed!
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
>> On 18 May 2021, at 10:53 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> re: "... they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing ..."
>>
>> That was my guess, based on what they told me; the motor was otherwise in good shape (how I managed to get it back together still amazes me). IIRC, it was a Tecumseh 5HP engine. The name of the shop was 'Knife Stalkers.'
>>
>> I'm looking into possibly rebuilding a couple chainsaw motors, the coil and 'points,' or whatever solid state switch they are using, are very simplistic. There may be a magnet in the crank gear to trigger the spark. I use Pertronix in several cars and, except for one they have a cap on the distributor cam with magnets to fire the electronic switch. Surprising to me, the one on my 4-cyl Austin-Healey doesn't use the cap, apparently the lobes on the distributor cam are sufficient to fire the Hall Effect sensor.
>>
>> bs
>>
>> On 5/18/2021 7:38 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> I believe you, of course, but I have never heard this before.? I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening.
>>>
>>> For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however.
>>>
>>> You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft).
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>> doug
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem;? ? ? ? ? ? ?supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
>>>> I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>> Nampa, ID
>>>>
>>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
>>>> To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
>>>>? ?
>>>> Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..
>>>>? ?
>>>> On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.? The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.
>>>>? ?
>>>> One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.? It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.? The manual is silent on this.
>>>>? ?
>>>> Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?
>>>>? ?
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Karl
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>

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=================================
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed May 19 07:58:07 2021
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:58:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
In-Reply-To: <EAFEAD30-E349-4CED-B571-2B0BAAB283FA@icloud.com>
References: <032abbe9-bef0-fd3d-0b13-63682df1d73d@comcast.net>
 <EAFEAD30-E349-4CED-B571-2B0BAAB283FA@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <338670797.1270737.1621432687642@mail.yahoo.com>

 On those engines (the only ones I have had experience with) the spark is fired on every revolution and deep down there is a cam lobe on the crank and a set of points that times the firing.? But the magnets must be passing by the coil at the time or you get nothing.? 

I have a small yard so we went electric on the mower.? It's great.? The only maintenance is to sharpen the blade every year.? It's so easy to use that my wife does all the mowing.? Drop in the battery, push the button and go.? I still have the gas powered chipper/shredder which needs a carb overhaul about every two to three years.? Considering that I drag it out about three times a year the use/overhaul ratio is quite low.
I got enough car stuff to keep me busy.
Cheers all.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:48 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston

I?ve had a no start condition a couple times with what appeared to be a good engine. Turned out the flywheel key was bad, it had sheared.?

Pat Horne?We support Habitat for Humanity

On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

?  All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, basically disposable appliances are built as simply and cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.
 
 
 On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
  
 
  I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.? On those motors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the flywheel on the opposite end.? They will run without the blade attached.? Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose model for that application.? The economies of scale favor a more generic design.
   
  Dave 
 
   
   
  -----Original Message-----
 From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com>
 To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
 Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
 Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
 
   Hi Bob, 
  I believe?you, of course, but I have never heard this?before.? I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance?this month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire with the blade removed for sharpening. 
  For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor protrudes?through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engine, however. 
  You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire without the blade?attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the crankshaft). 
  best, 
  doug?  
   On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
  
  Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a position sensor on it.
 
 Bob
 
 On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
  
  I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can't see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter differently.  
   Brian  Nampa, ID   
   From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vacek <stearman809 at gmail.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
 To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net' <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston ?     Last time I sharpened my 21? walk-behind mower blade I thought of something that?s never occurred to me, after using the same brand of mower for 25 years..  ?  On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.? The mounting point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing.  ?  One way would be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.? It?s been off many times and there?s no way to tell how it was mounted originally.? The manual is silent on this.  ?  Power stroke shouldn?t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one way or the other?  ?  Thanks!
 Karl    
 
 
  _______________________________________________
 
 Shop-talk at autox.team.net
 Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
 Suggested annual donation? $12.96
 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
 
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From eric at megageek.com  Sun May 30 05:17:39 2021
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 07:17:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
Message-ID: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>

OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?

These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade 
screwdrivers.)

Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact 
socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it?

OK, with that off my chest...

What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At 
this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use 
in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would 
want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 
first (it seems to be the most common size.)

FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 25 
years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina and 
the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth.

TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste 
that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a 
darn.

So, please help me.  What set do I need?

Thanks.

Moose.
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Sun May 30 07:31:38 2021
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 09:31:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <703B6E54-075E-4500-8164-4F9AA398D9D9@icloud.com>

Interesting question. I?m not personally a fan of impact tools in general, but that?s me.

Have you tried SnapOn, MAC, etc?

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 30 May 2021, at 7:17 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> 
> OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS? 
> 
> These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade screwdrivers.) 
> 
> Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it? 
> 
> OK, with that off my chest... 
> 
> What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 first (it seems to be the most common size.) 
> 
> FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 25 years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth. 
> 
> TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a darn. 
> 
> So, please help me.  What set do I need? 
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> Moose._______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun May 30 07:46:19 2021
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 09:46:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <E78A115E-A4BA-427E-8087-E7CE29BCF3D5@groupwbench.org>

While I've never seen an impact Torx set, I still have the dent in my forehead from the floor jack handle I was using as leverage on a Torx bolt...  I don't remember what broke, or much else from that day :-)

jim

> On May 30, 2021, at 7:17 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> 
> OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS? 
> 
> These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade screwdrivers.) 
> 
> Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it? 
> 
> OK, with that off my chest... 
> 
> What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 first (it seems to be the most common size.) 
> 
> FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 25 years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth. 
> 
> TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a darn. 
> 
> So, please help me.  What set do I need? 
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> Moose._______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org
> 

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun May 30 08:03:33 2021
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 10:03:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <E78A115E-A4BA-427E-8087-E7CE29BCF3D5@groupwbench.org>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
 <E78A115E-A4BA-427E-8087-E7CE29BCF3D5@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <966E9631-AB8B-4442-8D1B-A648C374C372@groupwbench.org>

One (useful) thing that occurs to me though, have you tried 1/2" drive instead of 3/8"? 

jim

> On May 30, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> 
> While I've never seen an impact Torx set, I still have the dent in my forehead from the floor jack handle I was using as leverage on a Torx bolt...  I don't remember what broke, or much else from that day :-)
> 
> jim
> 
>> On May 30, 2021, at 7:17 AM, eric at megageek.com <mailto:eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>> 
>> OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS? 
>> 
>> These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade screwdrivers.) 
>> 
>> Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it? 
>> 
>> OK, with that off my chest... 
>> 
>> What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 first (it seems to be the most common size.) 
>> 
>> FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 25 years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth. 
>> 
>> TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a darn. 
>> 
>> So, please help me.  What set do I need? 
>> 
>> Thanks. 
>> 
>> Moose._______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org
> 

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Sun May 30 08:12:04 2021
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 10:12:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CM88npQr=Fk4VZWOc44xfcYEMiCojidfeSUPFF_bT=cmA@mail.gmail.com>

"WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?"

Umm, because they are exceeding the spec?  The biggest Torx bit I've
ever needed was a T30.  Max torque is around 25 lb-ft.

What the heck are you working on that you're a.) needing an impact?
and b.) snapping bits?  Something doesn't sound normal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 7:18 AM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>
> OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?
>
> These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade screwdrivers.)
>
> Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it?
>
> OK, with that off my chest...
>
> What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 first (it seems to be the most common size.)
>
> FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 25 years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth.
>
> TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a darn.
>
> So, please help me.  What set do I need?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Moose._______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>

From eric at megageek.com  Sun May 30 18:39:43 2021
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 20:39:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <966E9631-AB8B-4442-8D1B-A648C374C372@groupwbench.org>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
 <E78A115E-A4BA-427E-8087-E7CE29BCF3D5@groupwbench.org>
 <966E9631-AB8B-4442-8D1B-A648C374C372@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <OFEBF63913.F3AB0EFF-ON852586E6.0003936F-852586E6.0003A348@mail.megageek.com>

That is what I'm looking for, 1/2" drive.  But I'll take anything that 
works.



From:   Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
To:     eric at megageek.com
Cc:     Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date:   05/30/2021 10:03 AM
Subject:        Re: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?



One (useful) thing that occurs to me though, have you tried 1/2" drive 
instead of 3/8"? 

jim

On May 30, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

While I've never seen an impact Torx set, I still have the dent in my 
forehead from the floor jack handle I was using as leverage on a Torx 
bolt...  I don't remember what broke, or much else from that day :-)

jim

On May 30, 2021, at 7:17 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS? 

These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade 
screwdrivers.) 

Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact 
socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it? 

OK, with that off my chest... 

What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At 
this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use 
in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would 
want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 
first (it seems to be the most common size.) 

FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 25 
years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina and 
the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth. 

TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste 
that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a 
darn. 

So, please help me.  What set do I need? 

Thanks. 

Moose._______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
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From eric at megageek.com  Sun May 30 18:41:33 2021
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 20:41:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CM88npQr=Fk4VZWOc44xfcYEMiCojidfeSUPFF_bT=cmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CM88npQr=Fk4VZWOc44xfcYEMiCojidfeSUPFF_bT=cmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF1229D887.3B990F03-ON852586E6.0003AAF0-852586E6.0003CDFC@mail.megageek.com>

This particular bold was for a brake line on a 2006 Jeep Tj.

I see these bolts all the time. T40s that are rusted and require an act of 
Dog to remove!

So, there are no  good kits out there?

I am looking at Snap on and mac and such, but I still don't see any.

Thanks.





From:   Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To:     eric at megageek.com
Cc:     "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date:   05/30/2021 10:12 AM
Subject:        Re: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?



"WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?"

Umm, because they are exceeding the spec?  The biggest Torx bit I've
ever needed was a T30.  Max torque is around 25 lb-ft.

What the heck are you working on that you're a.) needing an impact?
and b.) snapping bits?  Something doesn't sound normal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 7:18 AM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>
> OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?
>
> These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade 
screwdrivers.)
>
> Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact 
socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it?
>
> OK, with that off my chest...
>
> What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At 
this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use 
in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would 
want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 
first (it seems to be the most common size.)
>
> FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 
25 years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina 
and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth.
>
> TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste 
that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a 
darn.
>
> So, please help me.  What set do I need?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Moose._______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>



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From tjcora at icloud.com  Sun May 30 20:34:39 2021
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 22:34:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <OF1229D887.3B990F03-ON852586E6.0003AAF0-852586E6.0003CDFC@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CM88npQr=Fk4VZWOc44xfcYEMiCojidfeSUPFF_bT=cmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <OF1229D887.3B990F03-ON852586E6.0003AAF0-852586E6.0003CDFC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <A7DD7F2E-3F1B-4431-ADD9-7D3C5916D170@icloud.com>

https://shop.snapon.com/product/TORX-Standard-(Power)%2C-Industrial-(3%2F8%22)/3-8%22-Drive-TORX-T40-Pinless-Power-Socket-Driver/PFTX40E

I would not use an impact wrench on this (it?s 3/8? drive, the smallest 1/2? drive torx they have is T45). Breaker bar and a cheater if needed.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 30 May 2021, at 8:41 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> 
> This particular bold was for a brake line on a 2006 Jeep Tj. 
> 
> I see these bolts all the time. T40s that are rusted and require an act of Dog to remove! 
> 
> So, there are no  good kits out there? 
> 
> I am looking at Snap on and mac and such, but I still don't see any. 
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:        Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> 
> To:        eric at megageek.com 
> Cc:        "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
> Date:        05/30/2021 10:12 AM 
> Subject:        Re: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets? 
> 
> 
> 
> "WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?"
> 
> Umm, because they are exceeding the spec?  The biggest Torx bit I've
> ever needed was a T30.  Max torque is around 25 lb-ft.
> 
> What the heck are you working on that you're a.) needing an impact?
> and b.) snapping bits?  Something doesn't sound normal.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
> 
> On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 7:18 AM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> >
> > OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?
> >
> > These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade screwdrivers.)
> >
> > Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it?
> >
> > OK, with that off my chest...
> >
> > What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on?  At this point, price isn't really an issue.  I just want a set that I can use in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time.  I would want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the T40 first (it seems to be the most common size.)
> >
> > FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 25 years ago.  I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth.
> >
> > TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste that broken tooth!  And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a darn.
> >
> > So, please help me.  What set do I need?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Moose._______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun May 30 21:54:18 2021
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 22:54:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CM88npQr=Fk4VZWOc44xfcYEMiCojidfeSUPFF_bT=cmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CM88npQr=Fk4VZWOc44xfcYEMiCojidfeSUPFF_bT=cmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supORAd6cjTkFd-UW4FxQ-abWqKx9n1ZwZPvmgk2F3fdww@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 9:16 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?"
>
> Umm, because they are exceeding the spec?  The biggest Torx bit I've
> ever needed was a T30.  Max torque is around 25 lb-ft.
>
> What the heck are you working on that you're a.) needing an impact?
> and b.) snapping bits?  Something doesn't sound normal.

Big torx fasteners are used for caliper bolts (t55 is a common size),
seat belt bolts, door hardware, head bolts, truck bed mounting bolts,
and all sorts of stuff.  Some of them are ungodly tight to start with,
and corrosion hasn't made them any easier to remove.  Stuff like seat
belt bolts are usually have loctite as well.  They get used because
torx can transmit more torque than a standard hex bolt, an allen bolt,
or many other head styles.  They're also well suited for automatic
installation methods.

The high torque they can handle is only true when the bit is inserted
properly, full depth, square to the head.  If it's cocked, or not in
all the way, it will strip.  if the fastener head is damaged (someone
used the wrong tool to install it or to attmept to remove it.) you
will have problems too.  You need to make sure the fastener is clean
(spray something in it, and use a pick to pick out the crap), make
sure you use the right size bit, make sure it's installed right (tap
it in with a hammer).  I'm not a big fan of using impact tools to
remove torx bits, but if you do, get ones with the shortest bit
possible (reduces twist, and breaking from that).  Astro sell a nice
set, I think.

Also, make damn sure you don't have torx plus fasteners.




>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Mon May 31 03:05:19 2021
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 05:05:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <9ac1f5c7-127b-e15e-82fa-f477fc6ef5da@comcast.net>

The spline drive applies the forces from the applied torque more closely
to tangentially to the radius of the spline. More efficient conversion
of driver torque to fastener torque. The wikipedia article has a pretty
good description.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2021-05-30 7:17 a.m., eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?
> 
> These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade
> screwdrivers.)
> 
> Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact
> socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it?
> 
> OK, with that off my chest...
> 
> What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on? ?At
> this point, price isn't really an issue. ?I just want a set that I can
> use in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every time. ?I
> would want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I always break the
> T40 first (it seems to be the most common size.)
> 
> FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over
> 25 years ago. ?I was trying to remove a brake component off of a Lumina
> and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth.
> 
> TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste
> that broken tooth! ?And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth a
> darn.
> 
> So, please help me. ?What set do I need?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Moose.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon May 31 11:27:02 2021
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 10:27:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the deal with impact torx sockets?
In-Reply-To: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF634AFEF7.80999742-ON852586E5.003D4A5D-852586E5.003E0B3D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <96711cd2-199d-ba24-b29a-7af27c9901bf@earthlink.net>

I vote for triple square as the worst based on my experience with my 
wife's VW Jetta rear brake caliper brackets, which you have to remove to 
change the disks.? This is a southern CA car with no corrosion.? I 
bought the correct size Lisle bit from my local auto parts store, but it 
would not seat.? I tried a pick to clean the grooves and even a hammer 
to seat the bit with no luck.? Access is near impossible and these bolts 
are tight.

Ordered a different triple square socket set and that bit fit.? Tip to 
tip, the two bits look identical.? Still difficult to remove the bolts.? 
Was able to get enough torque on a 1/2" breaker bar that went to about 
100 degrees while bouncing my 200 pounds.? Could not get a comfortable 
way to use an impact driver without lots of bend on a universal joint.

Brian


On 5/30/2021 4:17 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, first, WHY DO THEY USE TORX IN HIGH TORQUE APPLICATIONS?
>
> These are the WORST fasteners I have ever used. (less flat blade 
> screwdrivers.)
>
> Then, if they are going to use them, why can't they make a Torx impact 
> socket set that doesn't twist and brake the first time you use it?
>
> OK, with that off my chest...
>
> What is the THE BRAND/SET of torx impact sockets that I can rely on? 
> ?At this point, price isn't really an issue. ?I just want a set that I 
> can use in an impact gun and remove a bolt without breaking every 
> time. ?I would want a complete set of sizes, but it seems that I 
> always break the T40 first (it seems to be the most common size.)
>
> FWIW, my first real injury while turning wrenches was with a Torx over 
> 25 years ago. ?I was trying to remove a brake component off of a 
> Lumina and the bit broke, and the wrench chipped my tooth.
>
> TO THIS DAY, whenever I have to reach for a torx socket, I still taste 
> that broken tooth! ?And, I have not found a set of torx that are worth 
> a darn.
>
> So, please help me. ?What set do I need?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Moose.
>
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