From 1789alpine at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 15:19:49 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 17:19:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters Message-ID: The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. Thanks, Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Mon Dec 13 15:26:51 2021 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 17:26:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jim, That is basically what I did with our HVAC system when I couldn't get the 4" filters during CV supply craziness. The 4" was supposed to be changed between 4 and 6 months, so I just bought the 1" filter and changed it each month. I did use bent wire (like what is used to hold an insulation batt between joists) to press the 1" filter against the side of the enclosure. We've since moved, but I did not have any issues with it; in fact, I think changing the 1" filter more often did a better job balancing filtration and flow. Best, Ian On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 5:20 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter > box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x* 4?* filters, which is an > unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - > that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my > general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x *1? *filter in there that > seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the > furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that > they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is > there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half > the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to > catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a > secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of > them tipping, but two would make it impossible. > > Thanks, > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 15:27:54 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:27:54 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 13, 2021, at 16:20, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. Is there a reason you aren?t using a washable, reusable filter? That?s what four inch housings are for, usually. If you install two 1? filters, put the cheap on as the prefilter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Mon Dec 13 15:32:22 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:32:22 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My shop air handler is set up to use a 2? filter but the installer said to use 2 one inch filters, both good ones. I watch the first one & remove it when it is too dirty, move the second one up & install a new second one. There is some discoloration on the second filter, so it is doing something. If you want to go with two different ones, I?d put the poorer one first, followed by the better one. My HVAC guy says to not use the corrugated filters, nor the fiberglass ones that you can see throughout. He sells me Purolator 312 filters by the case. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: ?The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. Thanks, Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdinnis at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 15:44:10 2021 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:44:10 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only real issue is that you will not get as much airflow through a 1" filter of a given effectiveness. Most of the time that's not a big deal. In our previous house we did have an issue with the AC freezing up when it was working really hard. In that case the solution was a lower effectiveness filter because the box could not accommodate a thicker filter. If you are happy with the performance of the 1" filter and have not had any issues, i'd say stick with it. I do NOT recommend stacking two one inch filters. On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:20 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter > box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x* 4?* filters, which is an > unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - > that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my > general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x *1? *filter in there that > seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the > furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that > they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is > there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half > the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to > catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a > secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of > them tipping, but two would make it impossible. > > Thanks, > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 1789alpine at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 17:02:43 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:02:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A31A1A5-4974-420F-8A92-2DC3A90E5661@gmail.com> Thanks, guys. That is all good feedback. David: I hadn?t considered using a washable filter, but it is an interesting idea. It looks like a 4? one will cost me around $100, so the breakeven point is after a year. Not too bad. But, here is an interesting point that showed up tangentially when I Googled ?washable furnace filters?: Fortunately, most 20x25x4 air filters last between six to eight months. By that calculation, the average homeowners will not need more than two 20x25x4 air filters in any given year. In contrast, a one-inch air filter will need to be changed every two to three months. https://servicechampions.com/benefits-of-a-20x25x4-air-filter-installed-in-your-furnace/ If that is true, the cost difference between the 4? and 1? disappears. Thoughts? Jim > On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Pat Horne wrote: > > My shop air handler is set up to use a 2? filter but the installer said to use 2 one inch filters, both good ones. I watch the first one & remove it when it is too dirty, move the second one up & install a new second one. > There is some discoloration on the second filter, so it is doing something. > > If you want to go with two different ones, I?d put the poorer one first, followed by the better one. > > My HVAC guy says to not use the corrugated filters, nor the fiberglass ones that you can see throughout. He sells me Purolator 312 filters by the case. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. > > Thanks, > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 17:22:44 2021 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:22:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: <7A31A1A5-4974-420F-8A92-2DC3A90E5661@gmail.com> References: <7A31A1A5-4974-420F-8A92-2DC3A90E5661@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a deep filter housing (this kind https://shop.aprilaire.com/products/aprilaire-401-replacement-filter ) and I get a year or more out of them. They are MERV 10, and the system is designed for them. A deeper filter has more surface area, so it can collect more dust before restricting air flow. I'm kind of in the filter business, as I help manage a high-containment biological research laboratory where keeping things in their place is very important. We have hundreds of HEPA filters, plus the gamut of regular and bag filters from MERV 8 to MERV 13. In general, we determine when replacement is necessary by measuring pressure drop across the filter. I don't do that at home, but you all have got me to thinking I should. I'm general, though, the performance of the system will inform you. Too much restriction (from a loaded filter, or just too many of them in the train) will eventually cause noticable problems. On Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 19:03 Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks, guys. That is all good feedback. David: I hadn?t considered using > a washable filter, but it is an interesting idea. It looks like a 4? one > will cost me around $100, so the breakeven point is after a year. Not too > bad. > > But, here is an interesting point that showed up tangentially when I > Googled ?washable furnace filters?: > > Fortunately, most 20x25x4 air filters last between *six to eight months*. > By that calculation, the average homeowners will not need more than two > 20x25x4 air filters in any given year. In contrast, a one-inch air filter > will need to be changed every two to three months. > https://servicechampions.com/benefits-of-a-20x25x4-air-filter-installed-in-your-furnace/ > > > If that is true, the cost difference between the 4? and 1? disappears. > Thoughts? > > Jim > > > On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Pat Horne wrote: > > My shop air handler is set up to use a 2? filter but the installer said to > use 2 one inch filters, both good ones. I watch the first one & remove it > when it is too dirty, move the second one up & install a new second one. > There is some discoloration on the second filter, so it is doing > something. > > If you want to go with two different ones, I?d put the poorer one first, > followed by the better one. > > My HVAC guy says to not use the corrugated filters, nor the fiberglass > ones that you can see throughout. He sells me Purolator 312 filters by the > case. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter > box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x* 4?* filters, which is an > unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - > that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my > general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x *1? *filter in there that > seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the > furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that > they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is > there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half > the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to > catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a > secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of > them tipping, but two would make it impossible. > > Thanks, > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Mon Dec 13 17:21:45 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 00:21:45 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bingo! Jim hit the nail on the head. The 4 inch filter has a lower pressure drop because of overall greater filtration area due to all of the deep pleats. It also has a lower frequency of filter change out for the same reason. Using two one inch filters together will impact your flow. It may not affect your performance noticeably, but it will change the system flow, drive up fan energy costs, etc. https://nordicpure.com/ seems to have a lot of sizes in stock and they are not too badly priced either on their website or Amazon. I?ve used them for a while and am happy with them. They are available in a wide range of MERV ratings too. I have a differential pressure meter across my filter. It registers 0-0.25 inches of H2O. I let that guide my changeout frequency, which often is around a year before the pressure drop indicate to me that it should be changed. Ok, yes, I am a Mechanical Enginerd. Jack From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of John Innis Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 2:44 PM To: Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters The only real issue is that you will not get as much airflow through a 1" filter of a given effectiveness. Most of the time that's not a big deal. In our previous house we did have an issue with the AC freezing up when it was working really hard. In that case the solution was a lower effectiveness filter because the box could not accommodate a thicker filter. If you are happy with the performance of the 1" filter and have not had any issues, i'd say stick with it. I do NOT recommend stacking two one inch filters. On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:20 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. Thanks, Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 1789alpine at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:10:49 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 20:10:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26DE75B1-C594-4724-A460-4F674E6257FA@gmail.com> Thanks again, guys. I had a feeling that there would be at least one expert on the list, but it looks like I got two, at least in the first couple of hours. And, they both agree! :) Jack: a differential meter is an interesting idea, especially given the cost of the bigger filters. It certainly doesn?t make sense to replace them more frequently than necessary. I am not a mechanical enginerd, just a plain old ordinary nerd. Still, I like playing around with new things. Would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/Manometer-Differential-Backlight-Ventilation-Measurement/dp/B07K7HT3XJ/ref=asc_df_B07K7HT3XJ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312099766989&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=20692614293351478&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004590&hvtargid=pla-622729475514&psc=1. I?m thinking of drilling a couple of holes in the filter box and semi-permanently mounting it. Jim > On Dec 13, 2021, at 7:21 PM, Jack Brooks wrote: > > Bingo! Jim hit the nail on the head. > > The 4 inch filter has a lower pressure drop because of overall greater filtration area due to all of the deep pleats. It also has a lower frequency of filter change out for the same reason. Using two one inch filters together will impact your flow. It may not affect your performance noticeably, but it will change the system flow, drive up fan energy costs, etc. > > https://nordicpure.com/ seems to have a lot of sizes in stock and they are not too badly priced either on their website or Amazon. I?ve used them for a while and am happy with them. They are available in a wide range of MERV ratings too. > > I have a differential pressure meter across my filter. It registers 0-0.25 inches of H2O. I let that guide my changeout frequency, which often is around a year before the pressure drop indicate to me that it should be changed. Ok, yes, I am a Mechanical Enginerd. > > Jack > > From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of John Innis > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 2:44 PM > To: Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> > Cc: Shop Talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters > > The only real issue is that you will not get as much airflow through a 1" filter of a given effectiveness. Most of the time that's not a big deal. In our previous house we did have an issue with the AC freezing up when it was working really hard. In that case the solution was a lower effectiveness filter because the box could not accommodate a thicker filter. If you are happy with the performance of the 1" filter and have not had any issues, i'd say stick with it. I do NOT recommend stacking two one inch filters. > > On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:20 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com > wrote: > The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. > > Thanks, > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > > -- > ================================= > = Never offend people with style when you = > = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = > ================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bk13 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 13 20:32:17 2021 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:32:17 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: <26DE75B1-C594-4724-A460-4F674E6257FA@gmail.com> References: <26DE75B1-C594-4724-A460-4F674E6257FA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4de750d5-0e8f-02a3-bb05-a0071fa23d76@earthlink.net> If you have 1" filters, do a search for "air filter whistle".? It is a simple two piece plastic device you put in the filter that whistles when the filter needs to be changed.? Got mine in a kit from the local utility company. Here is a description: https://yourfilterconnection.com/blogs/help/what-is-a-furnace-filter-whistle Caution - If you have a newer HVAC system still under warranty, you may be required to use the specified filter for the warranty to be valid.? My installer made sure to point this out.? My Lennox MERV 16 filters run $70 each in a two pack, but last 9 months with two shedding cats. Brian From JIBrooks at live.com Mon Dec 13 20:44:23 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:44:23 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: <26DE75B1-C594-4724-A460-4F674E6257FA@gmail.com> References: <26DE75B1-C594-4724-A460-4F674E6257FA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jim, I used a Magnehelic, see below, but I found it on eBay for about $40. I?ve used them forever on industrial equipment. They are mechanical, just keep on working and are old school like me! What you are looking at will work for this and other applications too. Just make sure you don?t put too much suction on the fan, i.e., don?t exceed the nameplate value on the fan. This should not be an issue, as you should have a fair bit of headroom to play with. As far as drilling holes, etc. for the tubes, just get the ends of the tubes somewhere near the center of the duct for this application. Brian?s filter Whistle is a nice really low tech solution too! Thanks Brian. I?d never heard of this. Jack https://www.amazon.com/Dwyer-2000-00-Magnehelic-Differential-Pressure/dp/B00NI4JUMY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1XUKMX4911WS6&keywords=magnehelic+differential+pressure+gauge&qid=1639451260&s=industrial&sprefix=magnehelic%2Cindustrial%2C213&sr=1-3 From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 5:11 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters Thanks again, guys. I had a feeling that there would be at least one expert on the list, but it looks like I got two, at least in the first couple of hours. And, they both agree! :) Jack: a differential meter is an interesting idea, especially given the cost of the bigger filters. It certainly doesn?t make sense to replace them more frequently than necessary. I am not a mechanical enginerd, just a plain old ordinary nerd. Still, I like playing around with new things. Would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/Manometer-Differential-Backlight-Ventilation-Measurement/dp/B07K7HT3XJ/ref=asc_df_B07K7HT3XJ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312099766989&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=20692614293351478&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004590&hvtargid=pla-622729475514&psc=1. I?m thinking of drilling a couple of holes in the filter box and semi-permanently mounting it. Jim On Dec 13, 2021, at 7:21 PM, Jack Brooks > wrote: Bingo! Jim hit the nail on the head. The 4 inch filter has a lower pressure drop because of overall greater filtration area due to all of the deep pleats. It also has a lower frequency of filter change out for the same reason. Using two one inch filters together will impact your flow. It may not affect your performance noticeably, but it will change the system flow, drive up fan energy costs, etc. https://nordicpure.com/ seems to have a lot of sizes in stock and they are not too badly priced either on their website or Amazon. I?ve used them for a while and am happy with them. They are available in a wide range of MERV ratings too. I have a differential pressure meter across my filter. It registers 0-0.25 inches of H2O. I let that guide my changeout frequency, which often is around a year before the pressure drop indicate to me that it should be changed. Ok, yes, I am a Mechanical Enginerd. Jack From: Shop-talk > On Behalf Of John Innis Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 2:44 PM To: Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> Cc: Shop Talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters The only real issue is that you will not get as much airflow through a 1" filter of a given effectiveness. Most of the time that's not a big deal. In our previous house we did have an issue with the AC freezing up when it was working really hard. In that case the solution was a lower effectiveness filter because the box could not accommodate a thicker filter. If you are happy with the performance of the 1" filter and have not had any issues, i'd say stick with it. I do NOT recommend stacking two one inch filters. On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:20 PM Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. Thanks, Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjcora at icloud.com Tue Dec 14 04:36:54 2021 From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 06:36:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: <7A31A1A5-4974-420F-8A92-2DC3A90E5661@gmail.com> References: <7A31A1A5-4974-420F-8A92-2DC3A90E5661@gmail.com> Message-ID: <994F9BD2-BA1F-4717-9518-31F772C8CC31@icloud.com> Now you?re getting to the point. Filtration efficiency is going to be measured in MERV (and/or MPR, if you?re 3M) and should be independent of filter thickness. What the 4? filter buys you is (for the same filtration efficiency) longer filter life, and, maybe, lower pressure drop across the filter. The $64k question is: how much lower, and does it really make a difference? If you do end up buying a differential pressure gage, would you be interested in running 1? vs 4? and reporting out what you see? You?d have to conjure up a way to seal up the duct so you get a good upstream reading with the 1?, I think. Another ME here, albeit one who is not crazy about doing sheet metal work ? at least not crazy enough that I see the point in going to a 4? filter, sans data showing it to be worth the effort. And I have a box full of 1? MERV 13 filters to use up - on a 3 month change cycle I am good until early 2023, at this point:-) Whatever you do, don?t stack 1? filters. They will act like two resistors in series - your blower motor will almost certainly not respond well to that. Regards, Tom Coradeschi Tjcora at icloud.com > On Dec 13, 2021, at 7:03 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?Thanks, guys. That is all good feedback. David: I hadn?t considered using a washable filter, but it is an interesting idea. It looks like a 4? one will cost me around $100, so the breakeven point is after a year. Not too bad. > > But, here is an interesting point that showed up tangentially when I Googled ?washable furnace filters?: > > Fortunately, most 20x25x4 air filters last between six to eight months. By that calculation, the average homeowners will not need more than two 20x25x4 air filters in any given year. In contrast, a one-inch air filter will need to be changed every two to three months. https://servicechampions.com/benefits-of-a-20x25x4-air-filter-installed-in-your-furnace/ > > If that is true, the cost difference between the 4? and 1? disappears. Thoughts? > > Jim > > >> On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Pat Horne wrote: >> >> My shop air handler is set up to use a 2? filter but the installer said to use 2 one inch filters, both good ones. I watch the first one & remove it when it is too dirty, move the second one up & install a new second one. >> There is some discoloration on the second filter, so it is doing something. >> >> If you want to go with two different ones, I?d put the poorer one first, followed by the better one. >> >> My HVAC guy says to not use the corrugated filters, nor the fiberglass ones that you can see throughout. He sells me Purolator 312 filters by the case. >> >> Peace, >> Pat >> >> Pat Horne >> We support Habitat for Humanity >> >> >> On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> ?The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. >> >> Thanks, >> Jim >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 1789alpine at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 09:30:06 2021 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 11:30:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: <994F9BD2-BA1F-4717-9518-31F772C8CC31@icloud.com> References: <994F9BD2-BA1F-4717-9518-31F772C8CC31@icloud.com> Message-ID: <0E630D2E-3DC9-4C3A-9B07-FDA8A2C984D3@gmail.com> Thanks, guys! For now I will stay with the 4? filters and add the gauge to my list of fun things to do when I have a little extra time. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 14, 2021, at 6:37 AM, Tom Coradeschi wrote: > > ?Now you?re getting to the point. Filtration efficiency is going to be measured in MERV (and/or MPR, if you?re 3M) and should be independent of filter thickness. > > What the 4? filter buys you is (for the same filtration efficiency) longer filter life, and, maybe, lower pressure drop across the filter. The $64k question is: how much lower, and does it really make a difference? If you do end up buying a differential pressure gage, would you be interested in running 1? vs 4? and reporting out what you see? You?d have to conjure up a way to seal up the duct so you get a good upstream reading with the 1?, I think. > > Another ME here, albeit one who is not crazy about doing sheet metal work ? at least not crazy enough that I see the point in going to a 4? filter, sans data showing it to be worth the effort. And I have a box full of 1? MERV 13 filters to use up - on a 3 month change cycle I am good until early 2023, at this point:-) > > Whatever you do, don?t stack 1? filters. They will act like two resistors in series - your blower motor will almost certainly not respond well to that. > > Regards, > > Tom Coradeschi > Tjcora at icloud.com > >>> On Dec 13, 2021, at 7:03 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> ?Thanks, guys. That is all good feedback. David: I hadn?t considered using a washable filter, but it is an interesting idea. It looks like a 4? one will cost me around $100, so the breakeven point is after a year. Not too bad. >> >> But, here is an interesting point that showed up tangentially when I Googled ?washable furnace filters?: >> >> Fortunately, most 20x25x4 air filters last between six to eight months. By that calculation, the average homeowners will not need more than two 20x25x4 air filters in any given year. In contrast, a one-inch air filter will need to be changed every two to three months. https://servicechampions.com/benefits-of-a-20x25x4-air-filter-installed-in-your-furnace/ >> >> If that is true, the cost difference between the 4? and 1? disappears. Thoughts? >> >> Jim >> >> >>> On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Pat Horne wrote: >>> >>> My shop air handler is set up to use a 2? filter but the installer said to use 2 one inch filters, both good ones. I watch the first one & remove it when it is too dirty, move the second one up & install a new second one. >>> There is some discoloration on the second filter, so it is doing something. >>> >>> If you want to go with two different ones, I?d put the poorer one first, followed by the better one. >>> >>> My HVAC guy says to not use the corrugated filters, nor the fiberglass ones that you can see throughout. He sells me Purolator 312 filters by the case. >>> >>> Peace, >>> Pat >>> >>> Pat Horne >>> We support Habitat for Humanity >>> >>> >>> On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> ?The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >>> >>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stearman809 at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 12:50:44 2021 From: stearman809 at gmail.com (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 13:50:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters In-Reply-To: <7A31A1A5-4974-420F-8A92-2DC3A90E5661@gmail.com> References: <7A31A1A5-4974-420F-8A92-2DC3A90E5661@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008b01d7f5da$e0f383d0$a2da8b70$@GMail.com> The 4? filter will give you far more filter area. Generally the media for a given MERV rating will be about the same (differs between brands of course). A thicker filter has deeper pleats, probably almost as many in a 1? or a 4? cartridge, but the 4? will have roughly 4 times the area. Thus a thicker filter of the same MERV rating will generally last as much longer as it is thicker. Remember too that the more filter area the less the pressure drop across the filter. Besides blower life, the lower the pressure drop the more effective the filtration will be. I used 5? filters in the old furnace because they were the thickest that would fit. I think they were about $35 apiece for 20x25. New furnace has Carrier?s mucho-expensive air filtration system which is a box that holds a 5? filter and some electrostatic wires on the clean side. While the 10-year warrantee is running I?ll bend over to buy theirs, but I doubt they?re anything special other than that they connect with a sensor in the unit that tells it that it?s eating the expensive stuff. Karl From: Shop-talk [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 6:03 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Furnace Filters Thanks, guys. That is all good feedback. David: I hadn?t considered using a washable filter, but it is an interesting idea. It looks like a 4? one will cost me around $100, so the breakeven point is after a year. Not too bad. But, here is an interesting point that showed up tangentially when I Googled ?washable furnace filters?: Fortunately, most 20x25x4 air filters last between six to eight months. By that calculation, the average homeowners will not need more than two 20x25x4 air filters in any given year. In contrast, a one-inch air filter will need to be changed every two to three months. https://servicechampions.com/benefits-of-a-20x25x4-air-filter-installed-in-your-furnace/ If that is true, the cost difference between the 4? and 1? disappears. Thoughts? Jim On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Pat Horne wrote: My shop air handler is set up to use a 2? filter but the installer said to use 2 one inch filters, both good ones. I watch the first one & remove it when it is too dirty, move the second one up & install a new second one. There is some discoloration on the second filter, so it is doing something. If you want to go with two different ones, I?d put the poorer one first, followed by the better one. My HVAC guy says to not use the corrugated filters, nor the fiberglass ones that you can see throughout. He sells me Purolator 312 filters by the case. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Jim Stone <1789alpine at gmail.com> wrote: ?The company that installed my HVAC system a few years ago used a filter box on the return line that takes 20? x 25" x 4? filters, which is an unusual, and thus expensive, size - filters generally run about $25 each - that is not readily available other than online. During construction, my general contractor just had a cheap 20? x 25" x 1? filter in there that seemed to work just fine. I checked the installation instructions for the furnace and there are no specifications for the filters, other than that they need to be changed regularly, which is getting pretty expensive. Is there any reason I couldn?t just use 1? filters, which are less than half the price? Maybe even put two of them in the box, a good one first to catch most of the dust and a cheap one like the contractor used as a secondary one. It is a snug fit and I don?t think there is any danger of them tipping, but two would make it impossible. Thanks, Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phoenix722 at comcast.net Mon Dec 27 10:41:39 2021 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:41:39 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable Message-ID: Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know all, and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas.? It has an optical-optical cable, and my TV has a digital jack.? Any good solutions? Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Dec 27 10:45:27 2021 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:45:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It would be very strange for the soundbar to have only an optical input and no other type of connection. Is there any other way to connect to it? Doug On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 12:42 PM Mike Sinclair wrote: > Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know all, > and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... > > Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an optical-optical > cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbubeck01 at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 10:49:16 2021 From: bbubeck01 at gmail.com (Bruce Bubeck) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:49:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, There are plenty of Digital optical in to analog RCA out converters out there, I've never used one but Amazon has them from around $15. Bruce On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:41 PM Mike Sinclair wrote: > Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know all, > and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... > > Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an optical-optical > cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bbubeck01 at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Mon Dec 27 10:49:52 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:49:52 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Search your favorite retailer for coaxial to optical audio converter & choose what looks best. I use either monoprice or Amazon. One thing to verify is that your choice is actually coax to optical & not optical to coax. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Dec 27, 2021, at 9:42 AM, Mike Sinclair wrote: ? Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know all, and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an optical-optical cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? Mike _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:32:15 2021 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which model is it? I looked up the lowest-priced one I could find, and it had HDMI input. I can't imagine not including that on all of them. The most expensive one I saw had two HDMI inputs but did not mention optical or digital. On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 12:42 Mike Sinclair wrote: > Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know all, > and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... > > Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an optical-optical > cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phoenix722 at comcast.net Mon Dec 27 14:42:51 2021 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 13:42:51 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HW-A450 On 12/27/2021 1:32 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > Which model is it?? I looked up the lowest-priced one I could find, > and it had HDMI input.? I can't imagine not including that on all of > them.? The most expensive one I saw had two HDMI inputs but did not > mention optical or digital. > > On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 12:42 Mike Sinclair wrote: > > Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers > know all, and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... > > Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas.? It has an > optical-optical cable, and my TV has a digital jack.? Any good > solutions? > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation? $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ronnie.day at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:43:56 2021 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:43:56 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's the model of the sound bar, and the make and model of the TV? On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 11:42 AM Mike Sinclair wrote: > Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know all, > and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... > > Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an optical-optical > cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ronnie.day at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:47:10 2021 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:47:10 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That model is wireless, Bluetooth? You might not need a cable On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 3:43 PM Mike Sinclair wrote: > HW-A450 > On 12/27/2021 1:32 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > > Which model is it? I looked up the lowest-priced one I could find, and it > had HDMI input. I can't imagine not including that on all of them. The > most expensive one I saw had two HDMI inputs but did not mention optical or > digital. > > On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 12:42 Mike Sinclair wrote: > >> Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know >> all, and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... >> >> Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an >> optical-optical cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:51:48 2021 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:51:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep, looks like optical is it. I just checked my 3 year old Sharp/Roku tv, and it has "Digital Optical Output" - looks like a square port with little triangular bulges on the side. Looks like a converter may be in your future. On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 16:43 Mike Sinclair wrote: > HW-A450 > On 12/27/2021 1:32 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > > Which model is it? I looked up the lowest-priced one I could find, and it > had HDMI input. I can't imagine not including that on all of them. The > most expensive one I saw had two HDMI inputs but did not mention optical or > digital. > > On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 12:42 Mike Sinclair wrote: > >> Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know >> all, and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... >> >> Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an >> optical-optical cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jem at milleredp.com Mon Dec 27 15:02:19 2021 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:02:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6842d193-2575-b120-dbf8-b4dfbf64d3fa@milleredp.com> On 12/27/2021 1:42 PM, Mike Sinclair wrote: > HW-A450 Yeah, little odd, a quick search says it's wireless or optical, nothing else. No RCA R/L, no HDMI, nothing. John. From phoenix722 at comcast.net Mon Dec 27 15:44:09 2021 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:44:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: <6842d193-2575-b120-dbf8-b4dfbf64d3fa@milleredp.com> References: <6842d193-2575-b120-dbf8-b4dfbf64d3fa@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <9a163260-3401-2bce-bf1f-2c961467d6f9@comcast.net> Well, I didn't buy the expensive model......... M On 12/27/2021 2:02 PM, John Miller wrote: > On 12/27/2021 1:42 PM, Mike Sinclair wrote: >> HW-A450 > > Yeah, little odd, a quick search says it's wireless or optical, > nothing else.?? No RCA R/L, no HDMI, nothing. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation? $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/phoenix722 at comcast.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ronnie.day at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 15:51:38 2021 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:51:38 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: <6842d193-2575-b120-dbf8-b4dfbf64d3fa@milleredp.com> References: <6842d193-2575-b120-dbf8-b4dfbf64d3fa@milleredp.com> Message-ID: One A/V trend I've noticed in the past few years that I don't care for is that the TV and accessories manufacturers are cutting back on the number and type of inputs and outputs on TVs especially. At least on the budget models. Last year I bought a couple Samsung 4K TVs and they only have two HDMI inputs. I guess they do it to save money. Older TVs had three, sometimes four. I have a Dish Hopper (connected through a Yamaha A/V receiver), a 4K DVD player and a computer, so I ended up using a TESmart HDMI switch to accomplish what I needed to do. I'm also configuring a 32 TB NAS (Network Attached Storage) to act as a whole house media server, and a central file server. The world has changed a bunch since VCRs came on the scene! On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 4:02 PM John Miller wrote: > On 12/27/2021 1:42 PM, Mike Sinclair wrote: > > HW-A450 > > Yeah, little odd, a quick search says it's wireless or optical, nothing > else. No RCA R/L, no HDMI, nothing. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jem at milleredp.com Mon Dec 27 16:00:40 2021 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:00:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: <6842d193-2575-b120-dbf8-b4dfbf64d3fa@milleredp.com> Message-ID: On 12/27/2021 2:51 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: > One A/V trend I've noticed? in the?past few years that I don't care for > is that the TV and accessories?manufacturers?are cutting back on > the?number and type of inputs and outputs on TVs especially. At least on > the budget models. Last year I bought a couple Samsung 4K TVs and they > only have two HDMI inputs. I guess they do it to save money. Either: a) They assume you have a device in front of the TV that's doing all the switching, or b) they're paying some entity a license fee per port. John. From pethier7 at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 16:23:02 2021 From: pethier7 at gmail.com (Philip Ethier) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:23:02 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool shed foundation? In-Reply-To: <1336648283.1966648.1591890880936@mail.yahoo.com> References: <088b7d86-089e-9c6a-9271-373f3819e7b0@bradakis.com> <1336648283.1966648.1591890880936@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Late to the party as usual. Mine is 8 x 10.5. My late nephew-by-marriage assembled while I was at work. Had several guys move it to a place I didn't like for several reasons. Argued with my wife for years about it. Finally the maple-tree roots had forced it so out-of-whack that the doors would not close right. SWMBO finally said I could move it. The place where I wanted it is not level. I built a dead-level treated-wood frame on six precast-concrete post-bases. Topped that with treated plywood. This means that the door is not at ground level. Not good for lawnmower and garden cart. I bought a pair of pickup-truck ramps at Horrible Freight. Built a way to slide them onto cleats below the floor so they would be out of the rain/snow and not cluttering up the inside of the shed. Got a young, smart, buddy to help me disassemble the shed. Screwed the shed floor to the plywood. Buddy helped me reassemble the shed and run power to it. Doors work again. Cantilevered steps work fine for most access. Ramps are easy to pull out of their homes between joists and put in place. Lawnmower and garden cart roll in and out just fine. Bonus is that I can prop the ramps up to get to underside of mower for service. This should last for years. I have "platforms" at both front and back doors of my house built the same way, and they have not moved in decades. ("Decks" need permits and frost footings.) On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:44 AM DAVID MASSEY wrote: > We in stalled one of those on a concrete sidewalk and we still had to shim > it up to get the doors to work. These are light, durable and inexpensive > but not very sturdy. You can probably get by with scraping the dirt flat > but over the years and a few rainstorms dirt can flow and you may have to > tug the get the doors open and closed. > > Still might be less work than pouring a slab. > > Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J Bradakis > To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 9:32 am > Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool shed foundation? > > First off. I'll inform you that I had Comcast, my service provider, > switch out my old cable modem for a faster, wifi enabled unit. At the > moment I *think* Team Net is still working as usual, no service > disruption. We shall see. > > Okay, now that the man behind the curtain stuff is out of the way I am > planning getting a plastic garden shed. I'm looking at one big enough to > hold the lawnmover, weed whackers, rakes, etc. Basically all the garden > stuff that is taking up valuable space in the garage. I need the room to > actually get some work done on my cars. > > It's only 7 feet wide and 4 feet deep. It comes with a plastic slab as > the floor. What do you think, can I just scrape a space in the dirt > that is fairly level and call it good? Or go all the way and have a > small, say 8 x 5 concrete slab professionally poured as a foundation? > That will likely cost more than the shed! > > mjb. > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier7 at gmail.com > > -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C, 8.1, White 2017 Ford Fusion SE 2.0 Turbo, Oxford White http://www.mnautox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phoenix722 at comcast.net Mon Dec 27 17:35:46 2021 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:35:46 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: <6842d193-2575-b120-dbf8-b4dfbf64d3fa@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <2b588a4f-cec4-0a52-f682-380b56ad4415@comcast.net> And the adaptors are probably sold by the same people who make the TV. Mike On 12/27/2021 3:00 PM, John Miller wrote: > On 12/27/2021 2:51 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: >> One A/V trend I've noticed? in the?past few years that I don't care >> for is that the TV and accessories?manufacturers?are cutting back on >> the?number and type of inputs and outputs on TVs especially. At least >> on the budget models. Last year I bought a couple Samsung 4K TVs and >> they only have two HDMI inputs. I guess they do it to save money. > > Either: > > a) They assume you have a device in front of the TV that's doing all > the switching, or > > b) they're paying some entity a license fee per port. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation? $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/phoenix722 at comcast.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brabel at comcast.net Mon Dec 27 18:08:03 2021 From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:08:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: <2b588a4f-cec4-0a52-f682-380b56ad4415@comcast.net> References: <2b588a4f-cec4-0a52-f682-380b56ad4415@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7F2EC734-E749-4FDA-86F7-8BC9FDE3304F@comcast.net> Check out HDTV Supply. Their array of devices and adapters will boggle your mind. -Bill Rabel Wet Spot Garage (my British cars) Anacortes To attack a man for talking nonsense is like finding your mortal enemy drowning in a swamp and jumping in after him with a knife. ? Karl Popper > On Dec 27, 2021, at 4:36 PM, Mike Sinclair wrote: > > ? > And the adaptors are probably sold by the same people who make the TV. > > Mike > > On 12/27/2021 3:00 PM, John Miller wrote: >> On 12/27/2021 2:51 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: >>> One A/V trend I've noticed in the past few years that I don't care for is that the TV and accessories manufacturers are cutting back on the number and type of inputs and outputs on TVs especially. At least on the budget models. Last year I bought a couple Samsung 4K TVs and they only have two HDMI inputs. I guess they do it to save money. >> >> Either: >> >> a) They assume you have a device in front of the TV that's doing all the switching, or >> >> b) they're paying some entity a license fee per port. >> >> John. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/phoenix722 at comcast.net >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/brabel at comcast.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Dec 28 07:54:37 2021 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 09:54:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool shed foundation? In-Reply-To: References: <088b7d86-089e-9c6a-9271-373f3819e7b0@bradakis.com> <1336648283.1966648.1591890880936@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20211228093839.04b47a90@cox.net> LIke Phillip, I came late to this party. Back in 2008 I replaced my rusted metal erector set shed with a nice 10x12 vinyl shed, in the same place as the old shed. The old shed was put up on a handfull of cinder block piers and then had the metal floor/foundation frame, and covered with plywood. Eventually, the plywood failed and I fell through the 6". That's when I decided I'm put up the new shed instead of trying to fix the curret one. But there was a problem, that part of my back year has a tendency to end up underwater when we get our spring & summer rains. To take care take care of this, I built a perimeter of garden timbers, 2 high, which I staked in place by drilling some holes through the garden timbers and driving some rebar through and into the ground. Fortunately, my best friend worked in construction driving a dump truck brought over a load of crush & run, which you can get from Home Depot, Lowes, etc. to fill the frameto a depth of about 3". Then covered the crush & run with dirt, and used a tamper, again compliments of my buddy, which can be rented from Home Depot, etc. We covers dirt foundation with a very thick plastic vapor barrier and then used solid cinderblock for the flooring. Once the foundation was complete we started erecting the shed. Here's a short article I did about the project: https://www.gomog.com/BLAIR/other/Shed/shed.html and if you want email me and I can send you the pictures of working on the foundation and putting up the shed. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pj_thomas at comcast.net Tue Dec 28 08:22:19 2021 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 10:22:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <729947b3-6d3f-5833-c6bd-7634c618fd2d@comcast.net> Any tv/sound bar made in recent years probably has HDMI/ARC.? Typically you'd plug a cable box or blu ray player HDMI into the sound bar and then the sound bar HDMI into the TV HDMI/ARC port. On 12/27/2021 12:41 PM, Mike Sinclair wrote: > > Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know > all, and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... > > Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas.? It has an > optical-optical cable, and my TV has a digital jack.? Any good solutions? > > Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peterwmurray at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 09:59:40 2021 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:59:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cable In-Reply-To: <729947b3-6d3f-5833-c6bd-7634c618fd2d@comcast.net> References: <729947b3-6d3f-5833-c6bd-7634c618fd2d@comcast.net> Message-ID: The HW-A450 only has two inputs - optical and Bluetooth. If the TV doesn't have optical or Bluetooth outputs, then I'd offer that it might be good to return this model and consider another. This YouTube video has a good comparison of the HW-A450, HW-A550 and HW-A650 units, and the link takes you to the comparison of inputs. -Peter On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 10:24 AM Peter J. Thomas wrote: > Any tv/sound bar made in recent years probably has HDMI/ARC. Typically > you'd plug a cable box or blu ray player HDMI into the sound bar and then > the sound bar HDMI into the TV HDMI/ARC port. > > On 12/27/2021 12:41 PM, Mike Sinclair wrote: > > Well, I have a hard time tying this to the shop, but you listers know all, > and it's only 17 degrees today, so.... > > Santa brought a Samsung soundbar for Christmas. It has an optical-optical > cable, and my TV has a digital jack. Any good solutions? > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: