From strovato at optonline.net Thu Apr 1 14:23:49 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 16:23:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good working order. I know the previous owner and I trust him. The engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc in a working garage. It basically just sat in the corner for a year or so. I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling further. My question is, how would you clean this before use? I could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in inaccessible places. I also considered spraying it down with WD-40. They make a "big blast" version with a wide area spray. There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it somewhere. It seems like a rinse would be a good idea. Thoughts? -Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From stearman809 at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 15:13:21 2021 From: stearman809 at gmail.com (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 16:13:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1788f489168.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.com> Kerosene I used to rinse down my race car engine in the driveway with kerosene when doing bearings or rings. Didn't have garage space so the great outdoors was my garage On April 1, 2021 3:25:09 PM Steven Trovato wrote: > I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good > working order. I know the previous owner and I trust him. The > engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc > in a working garage. It basically just sat in the corner for a year > or so. I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling > further. My question is, how would you clean this before use? I > could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in > inaccessible places. I also considered spraying it down with > WD-40. They make a "big blast" version with a wide area > spray. There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I > figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it > somewhere. It seems like a rinse would be a good idea. Thoughts? > > -Steve T. > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/stearman809 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From strovato at optonline.net Thu Apr 1 19:12:13 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 21:12:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: <1788f489168.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.co m> References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1788f489168.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.com> Message-ID: How do you use the kerosene? Do you put it in a sprayer? How do you deal with the resulting mess? At 05:13 PM 4/1/2021, Karl Vacek wrote: >Kerosene >I used to rinse down my race car engine in the driveway with >kerosene when doing bearings or rings. Didn't have garage space so >the great outdoors was my garage -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From stearman809 at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 19:38:31 2021 From: stearman809 at gmail.com (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 20:38:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1788f489168.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.com> Message-ID: <178903b55d8.28bf.cd27845553c78383775132770b7455be@gmail.com> I sprayed it through a solvent siphon gun, and just put plastic and cardboard under the engine to catch the mess. Now this was 1970-73... On April 1, 2021 8:13:12 PM Steven Trovato wrote: > How do you use the kerosene? Do you put it in a sprayer? How do you > deal with the resulting mess? > > At 05:13 PM 4/1/2021, Karl Vacek wrote: >> Kerosene >> I used to rinse down my race car engine in the driveway with >> kerosene when doing bearings or rings. Didn't have garage space so >> the great outdoors was my garage > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdinnis at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 19:47:45 2021 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 20:47:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: I have not had an engine sit "open" for this long, but for shorter durations, even in dusty shops, I usually just blow off the surface dust with an air hose, put clean oil in, run it for a short time, and then change the oil and filter. I don't like to use solvent on a motor that I am not going to completely tear down. Kerosene would not be bad, as it still has some lubricating properties. Anything more volatile than that and you risk scoring bearings and valve guides on startup. On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 3:26 PM Steven Trovato wrote: > I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good > working order. I know the previous owner and I trust him. The > engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc > in a working garage. It basically just sat in the corner for a year > or so. I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling > further. My question is, how would you clean this before use? I > could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in > inaccessible places. I also considered spraying it down with > WD-40. They make a "big blast" version with a wide area > spray. There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I > figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it > somewhere. It seems like a rinse would be a good idea. Thoughts? > > -Steve T. > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From strovato at optonline.net Thu Apr 1 19:57:05 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 21:57:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <85.E5.23457.1CA76606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Well, even if I used a solvent, I would still put oil in it and pressurize the oil system before starting. Bearings and valve guides will be lubricated with oil, with perhaps a slight trace of solvent. Then the quick oil change should take care of that. I agree that kerosene would be a particularly low risk choice. At 09:47 PM 4/1/2021, John Innis wrote: >I have not had an engine sit "open" for this >long, but for shorter durations, even in dusty >shops, I usually just blow off the surface dust >with an air hose, put clean oil in, run it for a >short time, and then change the oil and >filter.? I don't like to use solvent on a motor >that I am not going to completely tear >down.? Kerosene would not be bad, as it still >has some lubricating properties.? Anything more >volatile than that and you risk scoring bearings and valve guides on startup. > >On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 3:26 PM Steven Trovato ><strovato at optonline.net> wrote: >I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good >working order.? I know the previous owner and I trust him.? The >engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc >in a working garage.? It basically just sat in the corner for a year >or so.? I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling >further.? My question is, how would you clean this before use?? I >could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in >inaccessible places.? I also considered spraying it down with >WD-40.? They make a "big blast" version with a wide area >spray.? There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I >figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it >somewhere.? It seems like a rinse would be a good idea.? Thoughts? > >-Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Fri Apr 2 09:05:41 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 15:05:41 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: , <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: I've read some replies and thought I'd chime in..... With all the peripherals removed, were the openings taped over? If not, best to be certain there isn't a rodent nest inside. I've seen it first hand as well as a mounted water pump, not closed off, that was full of decon pellets. The water pump was full like the little bastards were spinning it to make sure every bit of space was used for 'storage'. I wish I had pictures but this was before I had a smart ass phone...... tim ________________________________ From: Shop-talk on behalf of Steven Trovato Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2021 3:23 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good working order. I know the previous owner and I trust him. The engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc in a working garage. It basically just sat in the corner for a year or so. I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling further. My question is, how would you clean this before use? I could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in inaccessible places. I also considered spraying it down with WD-40. They make a "big blast" version with a wide area spray. There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it somewhere. It seems like a rinse would be a good idea. Thoughts? -Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjcora at icloud.com Fri Apr 2 09:12:31 2021 From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:12:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Steve: I am firmly of the belief that the only thing which should go near the valve train or the crankcase is motor oil. For an engine that?s been sitting, making sure you have lubrication is key. My Dad was a bona-fide MG guy for years - used one of his (the ?78, I think) as a daily driver for quite some time in the late 80s and was very active in our local MG club. Based on what I?ve seen, those pushrod motors are pretty much the textbook definition of mechanically bulletproof. Electrics of the era? Errrr, not so much. I?d suggest that you do the following. Blow off any loose crud you see with compressed air (stuff rags in the intake ports first). Re-install the valve cover, pan, manifolds, etc and get the motor in the car and hooked up to cooling, electrical, fuel, etc. Before you fire it, pull the plugs and disable the ignition (pull the hot wire off the coil or ground its output), then spin the engine over until you have positive indication of oil pressure - either on a gage, if it has one, or by seeing the idiot light go out. Once that?s done, reinstall the plugs, hook up the ignition and fire it up, again observing whatever indicators you have relative to oil pressure. My $0.02, and worth what you paid for it:-) Tom Coradeschi tjcora at icloud.com > On Apr 1, 2021, at 4:26 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > > ?I have a 4 cylinder MG engine that was removed from a car in good working order. I know the previous owner and I trust him. The engine has been stored without valve cover, oil pan, manifolds, etc in a working garage. It basically just sat in the corner for a year or so. I would like to use this engine as is, without disassembling further. My question is, how would you clean this before use? I could use a hose, but I am concerned that water will get trapped in inaccessible places. I also considered spraying it down with WD-40. They make a "big blast" version with a wide area spray. There isn't any major dirt I'm trying to deal with, but I figure a couple of grains of sand could have landed in it somewhere. It seems like a rinse would be a good idea. Thoughts? > > -Steve T. > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com > From strovato at optonline.net Fri Apr 2 09:59:59 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 11:59:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <12.69.20285.9AF37606@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi Tim. Nothing was taped over. Careful inspection shows no sign of rodents. -Steve T. At 11:05 AM 4/2/2021, Tim . wrote: >Content-Language: en-US >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >boundary="_000_DS7PR19MB46292773B74AAFFE20D16916B47A9DS7PR19MB4629namp_" > >I've read some replies and thought I'd chime in..... > >With all the peripherals removed, were the openings taped over? If >not, best to be certain there isn't a rodent nest inside. I've seen >it first hand as well as a mounted water pump, not closed off, that >was full of decon pellets. The water pump was full like the little >bastards were spinning it to make sure every bit of space was used >for 'storage'. I wish I had pictures but this was before I had a >smart ass phone...... > >tim -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From strovato at optonline.net Fri Apr 2 10:08:47 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Tom, My plan is to do pretty much what you describe. Was just considering some sort of cleaning first. You want to stuff rags in the intake before using compressed air, but it has been wide open for a year. That will keep debris from entering, but I have no idea what might have entered already. -Steve T. At 11:12 AM 4/2/2021, Thomas Coradeschi wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64Steve: I am firmly of the belief >that the only thing which should go near the valve train or the >crankcase is motor oil. For an engine that's been sitting, making >sure you have lubrication is key. > >My Dad was a bona-fide MG guy for years - used one of his (the '78, >I think) as a daily driver for quite some time in the late 80s and >was very active in our local MG club. Based on what I've seen, those >pushrod motors are pretty much the textbook definition of >mechanically bulletproof. Electrics of the era Errrr, not so much. > >I'd suggest that you do the following. > >Blow off any loose crud you see with compressed air (stuff rags in >the intake ports first). Re-install the valve cover, pan, manifolds, >etc and get the motor in the car and hooked up to cooling, >electrical, fuel, etc. > >Before you fire it, pull the plugs and disable the ignition (pull >the hot wire off the coil or ground its output), then spin the >engine over until you have positive indication of oil pressure - >either on a gage, if it has one, or by seeing the idiot light go out. > >Once that's done, reinstall the plugs, hook up the ignition and fire >it up, again observing whatever indicators you have relative to oil pressure. > >My $0.02, and worth what you paid for it:-) > >Tom Coradeschi >tjcora at icloud.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dirtbeard at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 10:24:26 2021 From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 09:24:26 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: <12.69.20285.9AF37606@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <51.3C.23457.10C26606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <12.69.20285.9AF37606@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Hi Steve, I have done a few engines including a TR6 that had set for a while, similar to your scenario. Like others, I would brush/blow-off all the debris possible, drop the oil pan for a look-see, put all of the covers back on, and fill it with cheap detergent oil for the eventual restart. Then a quick run followed by an oil and filter change. I think it should be fine unless it was exposed to water or other contaminants. best, doug On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:05 AM Steven Trovato wrote: > Hi Tim. Nothing was taped over. Careful inspection shows no sign of > rodents. > > -Steve T. > > At 11:05 AM 4/2/2021, Tim . wrote: > >Content-Language: en-US > >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > > > >boundary="_000_DS7PR19MB46292773B74AAFFE20D16916B47A9DS7PR19MB4629namp_" > > > >I've read some replies and thought I'd chime in..... > > > >With all the peripherals removed, were the openings taped over? If > >not, best to be certain there isn't a rodent nest inside. I've seen > >it first hand as well as a mounted water pump, not closed off, that > >was full of decon pellets. The water pump was full like the little > >bastards were spinning it to make sure every bit of space was used > >for 'storage'. I wish I had pictures but this was before I had a > >smart ass phone...... > > > >tim > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjcora at icloud.com Fri Apr 2 11:36:35 2021 From: tjcora at icloud.com (Thomas Coradeschi) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 13:36:35 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> True enough, Steve. At least you won?t introduce anything more! Tom Coradeschi tjcora at icloud.com > On Apr 2, 2021, at 12:31 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > > ?Tom, > > My plan is to do pretty much what you describe. Was just considering some sort of cleaning first. You want to stuff rags in the intake before using compressed air, but it has been wide open for a year. That will keep debris from entering, but I have no idea what might have entered already. > > -Steve T. > > At 11:12 AM 4/2/2021, Thomas Coradeschi wrote: >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64Steve: I am firmly of the belief that the only thing which should go near the valve train or the crankcase is motor oil. For an engine that's been sitting, making sure you have lubrication is key. >> >> My Dad was a bona-fide MG guy for years - used one of his (the '78, I think) as a daily driver for quite some time in the late 80s and was very active in our local MG club. Based on what I've seen, those pushrod motors are pretty much the textbook definition of mechanically bulletproof. Electrics of the era Errrr, not so much. >> >> I'd suggest that you do the following. >> >> Blow off any loose crud you see with compressed air (stuff rags in the intake ports first). Re-install the valve cover, pan, manifolds, etc and get the motor in the car and hooked up to cooling, electrical, fuel, etc. >> >> Before you fire it, pull the plugs and disable the ignition (pull the hot wire off the coil or ground its output), then spin the engine over until you have positive indication of oil pressure - either on a gage, if it has one, or by seeing the idiot light go out. >> >> Once that's done, reinstall the plugs, hook up the ignition and fire it up, again observing whatever indicators you have relative to oil pressure. >> >> My $0.02, and worth what you paid for it:-) >> >> Tom Coradeschi >> tjcora at icloud.com > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com > From rkg at teleport.com Fri Apr 2 12:17:46 2021 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:17:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: Thinking about it, you could also stick a camera/bore sight into the exposed ports and see if there's anything disturbing in there as well. Best, rkg (Richard George) On 4/2/2021 10:36 AM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote: From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Fri Apr 2 16:02:45 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 22:02:45 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com>, Message-ID: "Thinking about it, you could also stick a camera/bore sight into the exposed ports and see if there's anything disturbing in there as well." Yes, this.....just to be certain Mickey didn't end up in there anyway..... ________________________________ From: Shop-talk on behalf of Richard George Sent: Friday, April 2, 2021 1:17 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? Thinking about it, you could also stick a camera/bore sight into the exposed ports and see if there's anything disturbing in there as well. Best, rkg (Richard George) On 4/2/2021 10:36 AM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote: _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berry at kerch.com Fri Apr 2 19:36:32 2021 From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 18:36:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: And down the spark plug holes. I remember when I first got my Bentley T1, I was going over everything, and opened the bag with the jack and wheel/tire tools and it was FULL of acorns. Those rodents are devious! On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 3:05 PM Tim . wrote: > "Thinking about it, you could also stick a camera/bore sight into the > exposed ports and see if there's anything disturbing in there as well." > > Yes, this.....just to be certain Mickey didn't end up in there anyway..... > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Shop-talk on behalf of Richard > George > *Sent:* Friday, April 2, 2021 1:17 PM > *To:* shop-talk at autox.team.net > *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] clean used engine before use? > > Thinking about it, you could also stick a camera/bore sight into the > exposed ports and see if there's anything disturbing in there as well. > > Best, > > rkg > > (Richard George) > > On 4/2/2021 10:36 AM, Thomas Coradeschi wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/berry at kerch.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From strovato at optonline.net Wed Apr 7 18:31:08 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 20:31:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that have teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock two nuts together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets that essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm not seeing the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I missing something? -Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Wed Apr 7 18:41:02 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 00:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> , Message-ID: Two nuts (obviously locked together), your favorite penetrant and heat if possible without doing damage. My less than .02 ________________________________ From: Shop-talk on behalf of Steven Trovato Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 7:31 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that have teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock two nuts together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets that essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm not seeing the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I missing something? -Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Wed Apr 7 18:49:07 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 19:49:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2 nuts work for me too. A dose of Kroil & time don?t hurt either. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 7, 2021, at 7:36 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: ?What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that have teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock two nuts together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets that essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm not seeing the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I missing something? -Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com From dirtbeard at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 18:55:05 2021 From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:55:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: Same here, as long as you have enough thread showing to double-nut it. Been known to braze the nut on if the stud is too short to double-nut... best, doug On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:41 PM Tim . wrote: > Two nuts (obviously locked together), your favorite penetrant and heat if > possible without doing damage. > > My less than .02 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Shop-talk on behalf of Steven > Trovato > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 7, 2021 7:31 PM > *To:* shop-talk at autox.team.net > *Subject:* [Shop-talk] stud removal > > What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that > have teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing > them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock > two nuts together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets > that essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm > not seeing the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I > missing something? > > -Steve T. > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From strovato at optonline.net Wed Apr 7 19:17:44 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 21:17:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: Thanks everyone. It looks like you are all doing the same thing I do. I thought maybe you guys would give me an excuse to buy a new tool. Apparently not this time. -Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Wed Apr 7 19:24:33 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 01:24:33 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> , Message-ID: If you are looking for an excuse or reason to buy a new tool then you already have your excuse/reason! ________________________________ From: Shop-talk on behalf of Steven Trovato Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 8:17 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] stud removal Thanks everyone. It looks like you are all doing the same thing I do. I thought maybe you guys would give me an excuse to buy a new tool. Apparently not this time. -Steve T. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dhlocker at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 03:09:41 2021 From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:09:41 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: <3dea356f-f07f-1e90-9f28-43c8df6caf7c@comcast.net> The reason two nuts don't always work is because the flats don't always line up, and if you apply torque on the top nut only, it can release the double-nutting rather than backing the stud out. Something like Lok-Tite on the top nut or between the two nuts can help. Donald. -- *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue () no proprietary attachments; no html mail /\ On 2021-04-07 8:31 p.m., Steven Trovato wrote: > What are you guys using to remove studs?? I see various tools that have > teeth that dig into the stud.? That is OK when you are replacing them, > but sometimes you don't want them damaged.? I usually just lock two nuts > together and remove that way.? I see some stud removal sets that > essentially do the same thing.? Two parts lock together.? I'm not seeing > the advantage to this.? Nuts are a lot cheaper.? Am I missing something? > > -Steve T. > > From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Thu Apr 8 03:15:03 2021 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (neiljsherry at talktalk.net) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 10:15:03 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: <6BE449CD-0E76-4133-B440-D93FEAAADA5D@talktalk.net> I think whatever you use, you risk damage to the stud if you're needing brute force to get it out. So try and address that (using heat). When brute force becomes the only option, I will try and grip the stud in the vice and turn the whatever it's screwed into - or even when I had a spare 3" vice - use the vice as a hand tool! Neil On 8 April 2021 02:17:44 BST, Steven Trovato wrote: >Thanks everyone. It looks like you are all doing the same thing I >do. I thought maybe you guys would give me an excuse to buy a new >tool. Apparently not this time. > >-Steve T. > > >-- >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >http://autox.team.net/archive > >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Thu Apr 8 06:50:19 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 07:50:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: <3dea356f-f07f-1e90-9f28-43c8df6caf7c@comcast.net> References: <3dea356f-f07f-1e90-9f28-43c8df6caf7c@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58D4AE04-5A5D-4E09-8A56-B398AC7776D5@icloud.com> I?ve never tried removing the stud using the top nut initially, I use a wrench on the bottom nut to break it loose, then move to a socket on the top nut if necessary. A spot of Locktite is a good idea though. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 8, 2021, at 4:19 AM, Donald H Locker wrote: ?The reason two nuts don't always work is because the flats don't always line up, and if you apply torque on the top nut only, it can release the double-nutting rather than backing the stud out. Something like Lok-Tite on the top nut or between the two nuts can help. Donald. -- *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue () no proprietary attachments; no html mail /\ On 2021-04-07 8:31 p.m., Steven Trovato wrote: > What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that have > teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing them, > but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock two nuts > together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets that > essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm not seeing > the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I missing something? > > -Steve T. > > _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com From phoenix722 at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 09:21:41 2021 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 08:21:41 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A lot to be said for penetrant and time. Mostly time. Mike On 4/7/2021 5:49 PM, Pat Horne wrote: > 2 nuts work for me too. A dose of Kroil & time don?t hurt either. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Apr 7, 2021, at 7:36 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > > ?What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that have teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock two nuts together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets that essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm not seeing the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I missing something? > > -Steve T. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 13:14:40 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 14:14:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:36 PM Steven Trovato wrote: > > What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that > have teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing > them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock > two nuts together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets > that essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm > not seeing the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I > missing something? Most of the tools will work on a stud that's shorter than two nuts. They're also easier to use on a stud where you don't have room to get a wrench on the bottom nut. you can also use them with an impact gun, which saves time. If a flat-rate mechanic is removing a stud, it's not going back in. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From strovato at optonline.net Thu Apr 8 13:43:29 2021 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 15:43:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: <36.5A.13592.FFC5F606@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yes, the more aggressive tools that dig into the stud will often work on a shorter stud. The other style seems to need the same amount of free stud as two nuts. Sure, a mechanic can save time by just replacing the stud, if you have the replacement. I remember replacing a water pump where the replacement did not come with the necessary studs. Removing and reusing the old ones was definitely faster than another trip to the store. -Steve T. At 03:14 PM 4/8/2021, David Scheidt wrote: >On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:36 PM Steven Trovato wrote: > > > > What are you guys using to remove studs? I see various tools that > > have teeth that dig into the stud. That is OK when you are replacing > > them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged. I usually just lock > > two nuts together and remove that way. I see some stud removal sets > > that essentially do the same thing. Two parts lock together. I'm > > not seeing the advantage to this. Nuts are a lot cheaper. Am I > > missing something? > >Most of the tools will work on a stud that's shorter than two nuts. >They're also easier to use on a stud where you don't have room to get >a wrench on the bottom nut. you can also use them with an impact gun, >which saves time. If a flat-rate mechanic is removing a stud, it's >not going back in. > >-- >David Scheidt >dmscheidt at gmail.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From eric at megageek.com Thu Apr 8 14:52:00 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 16:52:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote lawn mowers Message-ID: Friends, I sent this before, but I didn't see it come up. Does anyone have an pros or cons for the self mowers? (remote mowers like the Worxs) Looking for someone that lives alone and can no longer mow. Thanks. Eric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 20:37:37 2021 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:37:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote lawn mowers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric, I have no useful information to add, but I'm very interested in buying one or two of them. I'll be following this thread. Scott On Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 4:04 PM wrote: > Friends, > > I sent this before, but I didn't see it come up. > > Does anyone have an pros or cons for the self mowers? (remote mowers like > the Worxs) > > Looking for someone that lives alone and can no longer mow. > > Thanks. > > Eric > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shop at dillen.ca Thu Apr 8 20:42:06 2021 From: shop at dillen.ca (Steve Dillen) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 19:42:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] stud removal In-Reply-To: References: <2DD4FC7D-EA6F-487F-BCA5-C2CE1D7AEF67@icloud.com> Message-ID: <5416f8c4-8a36-9e4c-662b-b84086fe9b70@dillen.ca> I'm afraid that most often I end up removing studs as "dust", having first tried heat/penetrating oil, then a pair of nuts, then my cam-lock type stud remover...then moving on to the inevitable cutoff wheel/center-punch/progressively larger drill bit/dental-pick-to-pull-out-the-thread-remnants approach. Steve On 2021-04-07 5:31 p.m., Steven Trovato wrote: > What are you guys using to remove studs?? I see various tools that > have teeth that dig into the stud.? That is OK when you are replacing > them, but sometimes you don't want them damaged.? I usually just lock > two nuts together and remove that way.? I see some stud removal sets > that essentially do the same thing.? Two parts lock together.? I'm not > seeing the advantage to this.? Nuts are a lot cheaper.? Am I missing > something? > > -Steve T. > > From nick at landform.co.uk Fri Apr 9 02:03:09 2021 From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:03:09 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote lawn mowers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the UK Husqvarna has a good reputation for such machines, probably also in the US. https://automower.husqvarna.com/uk/index.html has a match your lawn to a mower facility. Not cheap and you have to factor in the installation of boundary cables. I'm interested but not ready to lay out that sort of money yet. Nick Brearley On 09/04/2021 03:37, Scott Hall wrote: > Eric, > > I have no useful information to add, but I'm very interested in buying > one or two of them. I'll be following this thread. > > Scott > > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 4:04 PM > wrote: > > Friends, > > I sent this before, but I didn't see it come up. > > Does anyone have an pros or cons for the self mowers? ?(remote > mowers like the Worxs) > > Looking for someone that lives alone and can no longer mow. > > Thanks. > > Eric > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/nick at landform.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Sat Apr 10 18:47:18 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 00:47:18 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] 100% OT but hoping for a good recommendation.... Message-ID: This is actually a serious inquiry: Do any of you play poke online? Looking for a decent site. I just want to play some poker. thanks tim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at bradakis.com Sun Apr 11 07:02:53 2021 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 07:02:53 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] 30 years. 3 decades. Message-ID: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> On this day 30 years ago Team.Net came into being.? The British-cars mailing list was already going strong, an offshoot from rec.autos Usenet group.? Dale Cook, Jim Muller, then me. Team.net went from 2 lists at the beginning, autox and british-cars, and exploded into nearly 70 different lists with something like 15,000 individuals subscribed at its peak.? For a while it was pretty much the only game in town.? As I recall, when I attended the SCCA Solo II Nationals 25th Anniversary event, something like 2/3rds of the 1,000+ entrants were on the autox list. And it amazes me that with such a scatterbrained procrastinator like me behind the curtain it is still on the air. It is a lot quieter these days, much better software handle many of the janitorial tasks automatically.? Back in the beginning, I had to do *everything* by hand, so to speak. Subscribes, unsubscribes, errors, I was spending 10, 15, 20 hours a week maintaining the server.? The first server had a 100 MHz processor.? Things have changed.? Back then just having a fast network connection at a residence was rare and expensive.? Good old DSL.? I remember that time when my service provider went belly up, and team net was off the air for 11 days straight.? I don't miss those days at all. Anyway, happy birthday to those of you still here.? I hope I can continue to provide a useful service for years to come. mjb. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: team_net.png Type: image/png Size: 17671 bytes Desc: not available URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Sun Apr 11 07:14:02 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 08:14:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 30 years. 3 decades. In-Reply-To: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> References: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> Message-ID: Thanks Mark for all you?ve done over the years! I found the Datsun roadster list about 92. Really helpful. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 11, 2021, at 8:06 AM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: ?On this day 30 years ago Team.Net came into being. The British-cars mailing list was already going strong, an offshoot from rec.autos Usenet group. Dale Cook, Jim Muller, then me. Team.net went from 2 lists at the beginning, autox and british-cars, and exploded into nearly 70 different lists with something like 15,000 individuals subscribed at its peak. For a while it was pretty much the only game in town. As I recall, when I attended the SCCA Solo II Nationals 25th Anniversary event, something like 2/3rds of the 1,000+ entrants were on the autox list. And it amazes me that with such a scatterbrained procrastinator like me behind the curtain it is still on the air. It is a lot quieter these days, much better software handle many of the janitorial tasks automatically. Back in the beginning, I had to do *everything* by hand, so to speak. Subscribes, unsubscribes, errors, I was spending 10, 15, 20 hours a week maintaining the server. The first server had a 100 MHz processor. Things have changed. Back then just having a fast network connection at a residence was rare and expensive. Good old DSL. I remember that time when my service provider went belly up, and team net was off the air for 11 days straight. I don't miss those days at all. Anyway, happy birthday to those of you still here. I hope I can continue to provide a useful service for years to come. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com From eric at megageek.com Sun Apr 11 12:13:55 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 14:13:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 30 years. 3 decades. In-Reply-To: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> References: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> Message-ID: Darn, I actually had this occasion in my calendar (I put it there maybe 10 or so years ago.) but I had the date as tomorrow. I can't even begin to calculate the valve of this list has been to me over the decades. I'm just glad it is still here. Thanks Mark, and thanks to all the members that made this list what it is today! Eric "Inch" "Moose" "Mule" Petrevich From: Mark J Bradakis To: "Shop-talk at autox.team.net" Date: 04/11/2021 09:05 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] 30 years. 3 decades. Sent by: "Shop-talk" On this day 30 years ago Team.Net came into being. The British-cars mailing list was already going strong, an offshoot from rec.autos Usenet group. Dale Cook, Jim Muller, then me. Team.net went from 2 lists at the beginning, autox and british-cars, and exploded into nearly 70 different lists with something like 15,000 individuals subscribed at its peak. For a while it was pretty much the only game in town. As I recall, when I attended the SCCA Solo II Nationals 25th Anniversary event, something like 2/3rds of the 1,000+ entrants were on the autox list. And it amazes me that with such a scatterbrained procrastinator like me behind the curtain it is still on the air. It is a lot quieter these days, much better software handle many of the janitorial tasks automatically. Back in the beginning, I had to do *everything* by hand, so to speak. Subscribes, unsubscribes, errors, I was spending 10, 15, 20 hours a week maintaining the server. The first server had a 100 MHz processor. Things have changed. Back then just having a fast network connection at a residence was rare and expensive. Good old DSL. I remember that time when my service provider went belly up, and team net was off the air for 11 days straight. I don't miss those days at all. Anyway, happy birthday to those of you still here. I hope I can continue to provide a useful service for years to come. mjb. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shannahquilts at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 12:45:42 2021 From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 11:45:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 30 years. 3 decades. In-Reply-To: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> References: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> Message-ID: This list has been really helpful, and I've enjoyed the conversations. Thanks, Mark, for hosting and keeping things going. Shannah On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 6:06 AM Mark J Bradakis wrote: > On this day 30 years ago Team.Net came into being. The British-cars > mailing list was already going strong, an offshoot from rec.autos Usenet > group. Dale Cook, Jim Muller, then me. Team.net went from 2 lists at > the beginning, autox and british-cars, and exploded into nearly 70 > different lists with something like 15,000 individuals subscribed at its > peak. For a while it was pretty much the only game in town. As I > recall, when I attended the SCCA Solo II Nationals 25th Anniversary > event, something like 2/3rds of the 1,000+ entrants were on the autox list. > > And it amazes me that with such a scatterbrained procrastinator like me > behind the curtain it is still on the air. It is a lot quieter these > days, much better software handle many of the janitorial tasks > automatically. Back in the beginning, I had to do *everything* by hand, > so to speak. Subscribes, unsubscribes, errors, I was spending 10, 15, 20 > hours a week maintaining the server. The first server had a 100 MHz > processor. Things have changed. Back then just having a fast network > connection at a residence was rare and expensive. Good old DSL. I > remember that time when my service provider went belly up, and team net > was off the air for 11 days straight. I don't miss those days at all. > > Anyway, happy birthday to those of you still here. I hope I can > continue to provide a useful service for years to come. > > mjb. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 06:12:18 2021 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 07:12:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 30 years. 3 decades. In-Reply-To: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> References: <8b820f7a-1391-6f86-9b68-56afa9ec3392@bradakis.com> Message-ID: That's amazing, Mark. I'm trying to remember my original subscription date. I read about spitfires at autox in "British Car Monthly", if memory serves. 1992-ish, maybe? Then Spitfires, or majordomo, had a list of all the *other* lists on team.net. I remember moving from...aol, maybe, to a different isp, then another, having to re-subscribe each time. That was a nice little old guy story, there. Wow. Best to everybody. On Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 8:05 AM Mark J Bradakis wrote: > On this day 30 years ago Team.Net came into being. The British-cars > mailing list was already going strong, an offshoot from rec.autos Usenet > group. Dale Cook, Jim Muller, then me. Team.net went from 2 lists at > the beginning, autox and british-cars, and exploded into nearly 70 > different lists with something like 15,000 individuals subscribed at its > peak. For a while it was pretty much the only game in town. As I > recall, when I attended the SCCA Solo II Nationals 25th Anniversary > event, something like 2/3rds of the 1,000+ entrants were on the autox list. > > And it amazes me that with such a scatterbrained procrastinator like me > behind the curtain it is still on the air. It is a lot quieter these > days, much better software handle many of the janitorial tasks > automatically. Back in the beginning, I had to do *everything* by hand, > so to speak. Subscribes, unsubscribes, errors, I was spending 10, 15, 20 > hours a week maintaining the server. The first server had a 100 MHz > processor. Things have changed. Back then just having a fast network > connection at a residence was rare and expensive. Good old DSL. I > remember that time when my service provider went belly up, and team net > was off the air for 11 days straight. I don't miss those days at all. > > Anyway, happy birthday to those of you still here. I hope I can > continue to provide a useful service for years to come. > > mjb. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 12:03:42 2021 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 13:03:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? Message-ID: Guys, I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it might get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want to sell it. I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire it up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it in the cold to get it to run. It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? I'm hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. Drain the gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or the like? This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight then need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do this right. Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lspector at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 12:14:04 2021 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:14:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a 2-stroke Toro snowblower that I "summerize" by draining the fuel, and then running 'til it starves. It's restarted on the first or second pull every time I pull it back out of storage. -Larry On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 2:07 PM Scott Hall wrote: > Guys, > > I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it might > get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want to sell it. > > I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire it > up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it in the > cold to get it to run. > > It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. > > Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from > starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? I'm > hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. Drain the > gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or the like? > > This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight then > need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do this right. > > Thanks in advance. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lspector at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From parkanzky at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 12:15:41 2021 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:15:41 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Install a fuel shutoff. I have one on my big Ariens snowblower, my generator, my nicer push mower, etc. When you're done using it and you're not 99% certain you'll be starting it again within a few weeks then instead of doing whatever you normally do to turn it off just shut the fuel valve off and let it die. I've been doing this for years and the stuff I do this on just seems to work season after season no matter how long it sits. -Paul On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 2:07 PM Scott Hall wrote: > Guys, > > I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it might > get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want to sell it. > > I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire it > up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it in the > cold to get it to run. > > It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. > > Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from > starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? I'm > hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. Drain the > gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or the like? > > This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight then > need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do this right. > > Thanks in advance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Tue Apr 13 12:17:19 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 13:17:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7C7444-92A3-4582-8BC2-40608A6CEDD7@icloud.com> Scott, I?d change the oil on it, run it to warm up, then change the oil again, then run it until all the fuel is burned up. If you like, spray the carb down & do a plug & filters service. Check the fuel lines for stiffness & cracks. Put a little oil into the cylinder & turn it over a few times. Try to leave the engine @ TDC. If the carb has a priming bulb, buy a new one before next season ?just in case?. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 13, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Scott Hall wrote: ? Guys, I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it might get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want to sell it. I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire it up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it in the cold to get it to run. It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? I'm hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. Drain the gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or the like? This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight then need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do this right. Thanks in advance. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com From dirtbeard at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 12:44:44 2021 From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:44:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I second Paul's idea regarding the fuel shut-off valve as it prevents fuel from draining into and evaporating out of the carburetor float bowl, totally gumming it up over several months. Additionally, I would suggest filling the tank full of gasoline (to prevent condensation) and adding Stabil to it. If you do not want to use Stabil, I would siphon out all of the gasoline instead, though I have had very good experience using Stabli, but I also am in a low humidity climate (Los Angeles). best, doug On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 11:16 AM Paul Parkanzky wrote: > Install a fuel shutoff. I have one on my big Ariens snowblower, my > generator, my nicer push mower, etc. When you're done using it and you're > not 99% certain you'll be starting it again within a few weeks then instead > of doing whatever you normally do to turn it off just shut the fuel valve > off and let it die. > > I've been doing this for years and the stuff I do this on just seems to > work season after season no matter how long it sits. > > -Paul > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 2:07 PM Scott Hall > wrote: > >> Guys, >> >> I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it might >> get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want to sell it. >> >> I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire it >> up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it in the >> cold to get it to run. >> >> It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. >> >> Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from >> starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? I'm >> hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. Drain the >> gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or the like? >> >> This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight >> then need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do this >> right. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirtbeard at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 13:51:40 2021 From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 12:51:40 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? In-Reply-To: <4C7C7444-92A3-4582-8BC2-40608A6CEDD7@icloud.com> References: <4C7C7444-92A3-4582-8BC2-40608A6CEDD7@icloud.com> Message-ID: Great advice Pat, particularly about leaving the engine at TDC to ensure the valves are closed. This relieves pressure from the valve spring and ensures that the combustion chamber is sealed from humidity and potential dirt, intruders, etc. best, doug On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 11:18 AM Pat Horne wrote: > Scott, > > I?d change the oil on it, run it to warm up, then change the oil again, > then run it until all the fuel is burned up. > > If you like, spray the carb down & do a plug & filters service. Check the > fuel lines for stiffness & cracks. > > Put a little oil into the cylinder & turn it over a few times. Try to > leave the engine @ TDC. > > If the carb has a priming bulb, buy a new one before next season ?just in > case?. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Apr 13, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Scott Hall > wrote: > > ? > Guys, > > I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it might > get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want to sell it. > > I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire it > up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it in the > cold to get it to run. > > It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. > > Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from > starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? I'm > hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. Drain the > gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or the like? > > This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight then > need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do this right. > > Thanks in advance. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Tue Apr 13 13:56:53 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:56:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Leaving it @ TDC also helps reduce ring wear if moisture does get in. Rust in the cylinder @ anything other than TDC or BDC will cause the rings to go over the rust rather than just bump into it. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 13, 2021, at 2:51 PM, old dirtbeard wrote: ? Great advice Pat, particularly about leaving the engine at TDC to ensure the valves are closed. This relieves pressure from the valve spring and ensures that the combustion chamber is sealed from humidity and potential dirt, intruders, etc. best, doug On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 11:18 AM Pat Horne wrote: > Scott, > > I?d change the oil on it, run it to warm up, then change the oil again, then run it until all the fuel is burned up. > > If you like, spray the carb down & do a plug & filters service. Check the fuel lines for stiffness & cracks. > > Put a little oil into the cylinder & turn it over a few times. Try to leave the engine @ TDC. > > If the carb has a priming bulb, buy a new one before next season ?just in case?. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Apr 13, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > > ? > Guys, > > I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it might get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want to sell it. > > I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire it up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it in the cold to get it to run. > > It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. > > Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? I'm hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. Drain the gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or the like? > > This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight then need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do this right. > > Thanks in advance. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bk13 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 13 16:57:31 2021 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:57:31 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winterizing (summerizing?) an engine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a194b11-50f4-764c-8622-aa58440cc5b2@earthlink.net> I second the fuel shutoff.? I have one on my wood chipper that may go 8-10 months without being used.? I run Stabil in my gas, but I'm California and they really mess gas up here. I had a lawnmower valve stick after about two months a while ago. After getting it unstuck, when the mower was seldom used in the California winter, I'd slowly pull the cord every few weeks to make sure nothing stuck again. I have a commercial grade string trimmer for brush clearance and was told by the local shop to try and make sure I start it every couple months to keep the carb clean.? I only use TruFuel in the trimmer and it makes a big difference over my past trimmers.? They make a 4-cycle version.? It may be worth it to drain the regular gas and put some of this in, run the blower a few minutes, then shutoff the gas and let the engine run out of fuel.? It is stable for the long term and doesn't gum things up like regular gas. Sample: https://www.homedepot.com/p/TruFuel-4-Cycle-Ethanol-Free-Fuel-6527238/203571144 Brian On 4/13/2021 11:03 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > Guys, > > I have a snowblower. It might not get used at all in a winter, it > might get used ten times. And I have a long driveway, so I don't want > to sell it. > > I would like to winterize it such that next October if I want to fire > it up I don't have to do what I did this February and disassemble it > in the cold to get it to run. > > It doesn't have a battery, so this is a gas/carb. issue only. > > Is it best to drain most of the gas and let it run until it dies from > starvation? Would that leave residue on the jets that might varnish? > I'm hesitant to use Sta-bil--I had a bad experience with that once. > Drain the gas, take it apart and spray everything with carb cleaner or > the like? > > This is the first engine I have that might sit for two years straight > then need to get fired up as quickly as possible, so I'd like to do > this right. > > Thanks in advance. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Tue Apr 13 17:37:52 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:37:52 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box Message-ID: I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a "cage clamp" terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I'm concerned about whether this is a code violation. Any thoughts on how I can run wiring to each of the two breakers safely and within code? Yes, mobile is not really covered by NEC, but it's not covered all that well by ABYC either. I'd just like to be as close to NEC as possible. Last resort - is anyone familiar with a small breaker box with standard busbars for the breakers to snap into? Thanks in advance, Jack Breaker Box - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-70-Amp-2-Space-4-Circuit-Outdoor-Main-Lug-Load-Center-with-Cover-QO24L70RBCP/100010356 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 20:57:42 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 21:57:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: > > I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. > Ccan you post a picture of the inside of the box? I'd like to see the bus baring. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From JIBrooks at live.com Tue Apr 13 23:01:14 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 05:01:14 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, A picture is attached. I think the list will strip it out for everyone else. The insert is removable. Thanks, Jack -----Original Message----- From: David Scheidt Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM To: Jack Brooks Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: > > I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. > Ccan you post a picture of the inside of the box? I'd like to see the bus baring. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PXL_20210414_045616115.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2680053 bytes Desc: PXL_20210414_045616115.jpg URL: From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Wed Apr 14 01:18:35 2021 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 00:18:35 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1350a30b-d683-c88c-b77d-9e543cf98224@threeboysfarm.com> It is designed to be fed by 240V (2 phase 120) power.? If you are feeding it with a single leg of 120V just tie the two main lugs together and run that from your power source.? The lugs should be large enough to have your incoming power go into one and then have a second wire in that lug feed the other lug. Regards, Mark Miller 707-490-5834 markmiller at threeboysfarm.com On 4/13/2021 10:01 PM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: > -----Original Message----- From: David Scheidt > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM To: Jack Brooks > Cc: Shop Talk Subject: > Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 > PM Jack Brooks wrote: >> I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at megageek.com Wed Apr 14 04:39:16 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 06:39:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this the same thing that happened to me when I installed and AC unit in my shop (ob shop talk content) 8>) I think you need to add fuses to this box. They were a pain to find. barrel types that aren't typical to the big boxes. I had to order them from someplace. I can't tell for sure, but I think that is what the problem is. If it is and you want me to ook up my order, let me know. Thanks Moose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Wed Apr 14 09:22:18 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:22:18 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: <1350a30b-d683-c88c-b77d-9e543cf98224@threeboysfarm.com> References: <1350a30b-d683-c88c-b77d-9e543cf98224@threeboysfarm.com> Message-ID: Mark, Yes, that screw down connection is sized for 2/0, so I can squeeze two wires in one side of the circuit and run one over to the other side. This seemed logical, but I just wanted to be sure that it was a reasonable solution. Thank you, Jack From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Mark Miller Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 12:19 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box It is designed to be fed by 240V (2 phase 120) power. If you are feeding it with a single leg of 120V just tie the two main lugs together and run that from your power source. The lugs should be large enough to have your incoming power go into one and then have a second wire in that lug feed the other lug. Regards, Mark Miller 707-490-5834 markmiller at threeboysfarm.com On 4/13/2021 10:01 PM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: -----Original Message----- From: David Scheidt Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM To: Jack Brooks Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Wed Apr 14 09:25:21 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Moose, This Square D QO Box is designed for breakers. They fit and snap in perfectly. It's just that the two hot leads are not connected together and I can't easily bring in two separate leads. Interconnecting them inside the box will work. Thanks, Jack From: eric at megageek.com Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 3:39 AM To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Cc: Jack Brooks Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box I think this the same thing that happened to me when I installed and AC unit in my shop (ob shop talk content) 8>) I think you need to add fuses to this box. They were a pain to find. barrel types that aren't typical to the big boxes. I had to order them from someplace. I can't tell for sure, but I think that is what the problem is. If it is and you want me to ook up my order, let me know. Thanks Moose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bk13 at earthlink.net Wed Apr 14 12:00:29 2021 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian K) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:00:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejrussell61 at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 12:23:18 2021 From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 14:23:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> References: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> Message-ID: Not being an electrician and not having stayed at any hotels recently I've stayed out of this exchange. Until now... Have you looked at RV power supplies? The one in our motorhome has 6 120v breakers, 10 12v fuses and a 120v AC to 12v DC converter. Eric Russell Mebane NC On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 2:10 PM Brian K wrote: > I'd reach out to Square D and see their recommendation for 120v options. > There may be a bus bar jumper designed to connect the bars. They may even > recommend a better panel. > > I'm under the impression that you can't connect multiple wires in a > breaker lug. Even had a home inspector write up two wires on the same > breaker as a violation. > > Brian > > On Apr 14, 2021 8:22 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > > Mark, > > > > Yes, that screw down connection is sized for 2/0, so I can squeeze two > wires in one side of the circuit and run one over to the other side. This > seemed logical, but I just wanted to be sure that it was a reasonable > solution. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Jack > > > > *From:* Shop-talk * On Behalf Of *Mark > Miller > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2021 12:19 AM > *To:* shop-talk at autox.team.net > *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box > > > > It is designed to be fed by 240V (2 phase 120) power. If you are feeding > it with a single leg of 120V just tie the two main lugs together and run > that from your power source. The lugs should be large enough to have your > incoming power go into one and then have a second wire in that lug feed the > other lug. > > Regards, > > > > Mark Miller 707-490-5834 > > markmiller at threeboysfarm.com > > On 4/13/2021 10:01 PM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Scheidt > > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM > > To: Jack Brooks > > Cc: Shop Talk > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box > > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: > > I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 12:41:40 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 13:41:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> References: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1DC6CC6B-8584-4B0E-90B4-30ED41EF524D@gmail.com> > On Apr 14, 2021, at 13:10, Brian K wrote: > > ? > I'd reach out to Square D and see their recommendation for 120v options. There may be a bus bar jumper designed to connect the bars. They may even recommend a better panel. In olden days, there is were 120v 2 wire panels. They were commonly called ?woodshed ? panels, and were used in farm outbuildings. You had more than a single circuit load, but not much more, and it saved a wire. I don?t know if any one still makes them. > > I'm under the impression that you can't connect multiple wires in a breaker lug. Even had a home inspector write up two wires on the same breaker as a violation In general you can?t have two wires under a lug. They are not designed for it, and can come loose. You can put more than one ground wire under a screw if the bar is listed for that ( most are). You cant put more than one neutral under a bus screw, because of the risk of disconnecting a neutral from a live circuit. Some breakers, notably homeline ones, are rated for two wires. Inspectors still call it out, because it?s on their checklist. (The guy who inspected my house called that out, but not the 50a 120v breakers with 14 gauge wire. What the hell uses 50a 120v, btw? They had done it so outlets didn?t trip the breaker. ). > Brian > > On Apr 14, 2021 8:22 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > Mark, > > > > Yes, that screw down connection is sized for 2/0, so I can squeeze two wires in one side of the circuit and run one over to the other side. This seemed logical, but I just wanted to be sure that it was a reasonable solution. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Jack > > > > From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Mark Miller > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 12:19 AM > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box > > > > It is designed to be fed by 240V (2 phase 120) power. If you are feeding it with a single leg of 120V just tie the two main lugs together and run that from your power source. The lugs should be large enough to have your incoming power go into one and then have a second wire in that lug feed the other lug. > > Regards, > > Mark Miller 707-490-5834 > markmiller at threeboysfarm.com > On 4/13/2021 10:01 PM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Scheidt > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM > To: Jack Brooks > Cc: Shop Talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: > I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Wed Apr 14 15:08:53 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:08:53 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> Message-ID: If I didn?t have most of my DC system installed already, it might have been a choice. Jack From: Eric Russell Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 11:23 AM To: Brian K Cc: Jack Brooks ; markmiller at threeboysfarm.com; Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box Not being an electrician and not having stayed at any hotels recently I've stayed out of this exchange. Until now... Have you looked at RV power supplies? The one in our motorhome has 6 120v breakers, 10 12v fuses and a 120v AC to 12v DC converter. Eric Russell Mebane NC On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 2:10 PM Brian K > wrote: I'd reach out to Square D and see their recommendation for 120v options. There may be a bus bar jumper designed to connect the bars. They may even recommend a better panel. I'm under the impression that you can't connect multiple wires in a breaker lug. Even had a home inspector write up two wires on the same breaker as a violation. Brian On Apr 14, 2021 8:22 AM, Jack Brooks > wrote: Mark, Yes, that screw down connection is sized for 2/0, so I can squeeze two wires in one side of the circuit and run one over to the other side. This seemed logical, but I just wanted to be sure that it was a reasonable solution. Thank you, Jack From: Shop-talk > On Behalf Of Mark Miller Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 12:19 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box It is designed to be fed by 240V (2 phase 120) power. If you are feeding it with a single leg of 120V just tie the two main lugs together and run that from your power source. The lugs should be large enough to have your incoming power go into one and then have a second wire in that lug feed the other lug. Regards, Mark Miller 707-490-5834 markmiller at threeboysfarm.com On 4/13/2021 10:01 PM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: -----Original Message----- From: David Scheidt Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM To: Jack Brooks Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Wed Apr 14 15:10:57 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:10:57 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> References: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> Message-ID: All, From a Sprinter forum I learned have two good choices. 1. I can use a heavy cable between the two breaker lugs, strip a portion of the wire in the center of the run and use a Split Bolt Bonding Connector https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OMIN7C/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1GAF1H4JQJZXC&psc=1 to join the incoming lead to the other cable where I would have stripped a section of the center of the cable. This uninsulated split bolt would need to be taped, etc., to protect it. 1. Alternatively, I can use an insulated Multi-Cable Connector, like this one. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GDFXC6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 Wago connectors are available for smaller circuits. They are simple click on/off connectors, but only go down to 10 AWG. I?m still debating which one to pick, but I like both of these options. Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. Jack From: Brian K Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 11:00 AM To: Jack Brooks Cc: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box I'd reach out to Square D and see their recommendation for 120v options. There may be a bus bar jumper designed to connect the bars. They may even recommend a better panel. I'm under the impression that you can't connect multiple wires in a breaker lug. Even had a home inspector write up two wires on the same breaker as a violation. Brian On Apr 14, 2021 8:22 AM, Jack Brooks > wrote: Mark, Yes, that screw down connection is sized for 2/0, so I can squeeze two wires in one side of the circuit and run one over to the other side. This seemed logical, but I just wanted to be sure that it was a reasonable solution. Thank you, Jack From: Shop-talk > On Behalf Of Mark Miller Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 12:19 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box It is designed to be fed by 240V (2 phase 120) power. If you are feeding it with a single leg of 120V just tie the two main lugs together and run that from your power source. The lugs should be large enough to have your incoming power go into one and then have a second wire in that lug feed the other lug. Regards, Mark Miller 707-490-5834 markmiller at threeboysfarm.com On 4/13/2021 10:01 PM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: -----Original Message----- From: David Scheidt Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM To: Jack Brooks Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com Sun Apr 18 18:18:34 2021 From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 00:18:34 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades differences Message-ID: I have always assumed that the diamond tips ones were supperior for metal cutting. Yesterday I was cutting up a derelict body. It was thin Japanese sheet metal. The fine toothed bi-metal did hands down better than the diamond tipped blades ($10 each diamond tipped blades btw)...the difference was night and day. Are the diamond blades for a specific type of metal? thanks tuim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 07:57:12 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:57:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F9974ED-EA0C-4460-900E-BFEBF28EAF1D@gmail.com> > On Apr 18, 2021, at 19:19, Tim . wrote: > > ? > I have always assumed that the diamond tips ones were supperior for metal cutting. > > Yesterday I was cutting up a derelict body. It was thin Japanese sheet metal. The fine toothed bi-metal did hands down better than the diamond tipped blades ($10 each diamond tipped blades btw)...the difference was night and day. > > Are the diamond blades for a specific type of The diamond blades I?ve seen are for masonry, not metal. What?s your package say? Carbide blades work great and last longer than bi-metal ones, but I don?t know they are worth the extra money for general use. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at dinospider.com Mon Apr 19 17:49:05 2021 From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 16:49:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? Message-ID: ?Ok, I want a cooler garage this year.? I have been planning to install a mini-split for several years now and this is the year.??? Power will be a slight problem, shop has plenty but none where I want the compressor to go, so have to run some power. Shop has 200amp sub-panel 40ft away from where I want to install compressor. Not a big deal BUT I saw a 18k btu window unit at Home Depot and was thinking that should work great and be half the price. ?My shop is 24ft x 40ft so 960 sq. ft. 9ft tall walls of 2x6 filled with insulation and I went overboard on ceiling insulation also, stays cool until mid-afternnon on hot days then becomes a oven for the evening, I live in S. Calif.? I already have a Hot Dawg gas heater so I don't need the heat that a mini-split would provide, but might be nice to get rid of the Hot Dawg (doubt that I would) and have one unit do both.?? In the "shop" area of the garage I have barn doors that I welded up forever ago, 1x2 steel with a plywood exterior, i have not used/opened those doors in over a decade, they were installed when I built the shop just so I could get my lathe and mill in easily.?? I have no windows in the shop so I was thinking I could put this window ac unit in one of those barn doors, the frame will easily handle the weight and it would be a super easy hole to cut and install the unit into, I think even the hinges would handle the weight but I can get stronger bigger hinges if I need them.? Then I have dedicated 50amp plug right next to that for my TIG to plug the unit into, I weld mostly in the front of the shop anyway but I wired every wall with a 50amp for the TIG and 30amp for the table saw when I built the shop (I really went overboard on wiring). ?So what would you do ? mini-split seems to the answer but half the price for a easier install window unit and cut a hole in a unused door seems like a good idea, good ideas are often the worst... ??? mike -- A gun is like a parachute, if you need one but don't have it, you'll probably never need one again. From patintexas at icloud.com Mon Apr 19 17:57:28 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:57:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3790DFD6-1859-45F7-8F9E-2E8C13F117F2@icloud.com> Mike, this may be a tough call. Window units are easy but mini-splits probably have a much better efficiency. If you have any possibility of adding an additional conditioned area such as an office, a lot of mini-split compressors can support multiple inside units. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 19, 2021, at 6:50 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: ? Ok, I want a cooler garage this year. I have been planning to install a mini-split for several years now and this is the year. Power will be a slight problem, shop has plenty but none where I want the compressor to go, so have to run some power. Shop has 200amp sub-panel 40ft away from where I want to install compressor. Not a big deal BUT I saw a 18k btu window unit at Home Depot and was thinking that should work great and be half the price. My shop is 24ft x 40ft so 960 sq. ft. 9ft tall walls of 2x6 filled with insulation and I went overboard on ceiling insulation also, stays cool until mid-afternnon on hot days then becomes a oven for the evening, I live in S. Calif. I already have a Hot Dawg gas heater so I don't need the heat that a mini-split would provide, but might be nice to get rid of the Hot Dawg (doubt that I would) and have one unit do both. In the "shop" area of the garage I have barn doors that I welded up forever ago, 1x2 steel with a plywood exterior, i have not used/opened those doors in over a decade, they were installed when I built the shop just so I could get my lathe and mill in easily. I have no windows in the shop so I was thinking I could put this window ac unit in one of those barn doors, the frame will easily handle the weight and it would be a super easy hole to cut and install the unit into, I think even the hinges would handle the weight but I can get stronger bigger hinges if I need them. Then I have dedicated 50amp plug right next to that for my TIG to plug the unit into, I weld mostly in the front of the shop anyway but I wired every wall with a 50amp for the TIG and 30amp for the table saw when I built the shop (I really went overboard on wiring). So what would you do ? mini-split seems to the answer but half the price for a easier install window unit and cut a hole in a unused door seems like a good idea, good ideas are often the worst... mike -- A gun is like a parachute, if you need one but don't have it, you'll probably never need one again. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com From ejrussell61 at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 18:05:00 2021 From: ejrussell61 at gmail.com (Eric Russell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 20:05:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I installed a mini-split in our garage (25' X 40' x 11' 8" with residential grade insulation). I like it a lot. It is very efficient for moderate heating needs (it loses efficiency below ~ 35*F) and frequent cooling. Here in North Carolina winters are not extremely cold but summers need the A/C. I had an electrician run the circuits for disconnects then I installed the units (one in the garage, one for the room above) and had an HVAC tech vacuum the lines and make the final connection. Eric Russell Mebane, NC On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 7:49 PM Mike Rambour wrote: > Ok, I want a cooler garage this year. I have been planning to install > a mini-split for several years now and this is the year. Power will > be a slight problem, shop has plenty but none where I want the > compressor to go, so have to run some power. Shop has 200amp sub-panel > 40ft away from where I want to install compressor. Not a big deal BUT I > saw a 18k btu window unit at Home Depot and was thinking that should > work great and be half the price. > > My shop is 24ft x 40ft so 960 sq. ft. 9ft tall walls of 2x6 filled > with insulation and I went overboard on ceiling insulation also, stays > cool until mid-afternnon on hot days then becomes a oven for the > evening, I live in S. Calif. I already have a Hot Dawg gas heater so I > don't need the heat that a mini-split would provide, but might be nice > to get rid of the Hot Dawg (doubt that I would) and have one unit do > both. In the "shop" area of the garage I have barn doors that I welded > up forever ago, 1x2 steel with a plywood exterior, i have not > used/opened those doors in over a decade, they were installed when I > built the shop just so I could get my lathe and mill in easily. I have > no windows in the shop so I was thinking I could put this window ac unit > in one of those barn doors, the frame will easily handle the weight and > it would be a super easy hole to cut and install the unit into, I think > even the hinges would handle the weight but I can get stronger bigger > hinges if I need them. Then I have dedicated 50amp plug right next to > that for my TIG to plug the unit into, I weld mostly in the front of the > shop anyway but I wired every wall with a 50amp for the TIG and 30amp > for the table saw when I built the shop (I really went overboard on > wiring). > > So what would you do ? mini-split seems to the answer but half the > price for a easier install window unit and cut a hole in a unused door > seems like a good idea, good ideas are often the worst... > > mike > > -- > A gun is like a parachute, if you need one but don't have it, > you'll probably never need one again. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell61 at gmail.com > > -- Eric Russell Mebane, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 18:54:08 2021 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:54:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Testing a 75 year-old compressor Message-ID: Fellas, My compressor search ended on a Westinghouse Air Brake Co (WABCO) compressor originally built in 1945. It's a 1AYC, two-stage v-twin. It's amazingly quiet and will make more pressure than the gauge, which only goes to 100 psi. It takes a while to get there, it seems, but that could just be because it's got a big tank. I'd like this thing to last the rest of my life, and if it made it this far there's no reason it shouldn't. Is there any way I can perform something like a leakdown test? Or any other diagnostics to see if a rebuild is in order? My plan now is to install another pressure gauge and see what it tops out at. I can unscrew the plugs in the tank side and shine a light in there, but the tank itself seems to be made of 3/8"-think steel. These guys were not fooling around. The electric motor also seems to be original. Any advice for caring for that? It looks like it has an oil port. Everything online points to where you can get parts. Nothing on how to actually maintain it. I think I can request its original service manual, but I won't know until they call me back tomorrow. Thanks. Scott -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirtbeard at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 06:48:47 2021 From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 05:48:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Testing a 75 year-old compressor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Scott, I am no help to you on this particular compressor, but I wanted to congratulate on such a great find. One inherent risk on any old compressor is tank rust, but you stated that it appears to be a very stout tank, and if it had been readily drained, hopefully it will last a few more decades. Given the age, it almost certainly has been using non-detergent oil, and I would recommend continuing with ND oil as you will not want to start disturbing any of the deposits that may be there. The valves probably are removable (may need to be cleaned) and replaceable, and aside from the rings and bearings, that is about all there is to them. Again, congratulations on such a great find and I wish you many years of usage. best, doug On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 6:00 PM Scott Hall wrote: > Fellas, > > My compressor search ended on a Westinghouse Air Brake Co (WABCO) > compressor originally built in 1945. It's a 1AYC, two-stage v-twin. It's > amazingly quiet and will make more pressure than the gauge, which only goes > to 100 psi. It takes a while to get there, it seems, but that could just be > because it's got a big tank. > > I'd like this thing to last the rest of my life, and if it made it this > far there's no reason it shouldn't. Is there any way I can perform > something like a leakdown test? Or any other diagnostics to see if a > rebuild is in order? My plan now is to install another pressure gauge and > see what it tops out at. I can unscrew the plugs in the tank side and shine > a light in there, but the tank itself seems to be made of 3/8"-think steel. > These guys were not fooling around. > > The electric motor also seems to be original. Any advice for caring for > that? It looks like it has an oil port. > > Everything online points to where you can get parts. Nothing on how to > actually maintain it. I think I can request its original service manual, > but I won't know until they call me back tomorrow. > > Thanks. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at megageek.com Tue Apr 20 11:12:37 2021 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:12:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, last march I installed a mini-split in my bedroom. It was professionally sourced and installed (Carrer) I LOVE that thing. While it was only sized for my bedroom, I can cool the entire upstairs with it and even provide cooling for the downstairs. So, I looked at my shop (2600SQFT) and thought I could put one in there. I bought one from Walmart (the largest one I could find) and installed it myself. It is a really easy deal. I did have a buddy help me with the vacuum lines when i was done. Now I will never consider a window mount unit, EVER! I had them in there for years, super loud, poor cooling (and a blast fan), terrible inefficent. Not to mention couldn't really seal the window from incects. Also, the need to put it in and take it out all the time. No more. I'm a mini split convert. The ONLY downside, is that if it is a nice cool day outside, they can't blow that air in the house. But I can use another fan for those times. Enjoy! Moose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pethier7 at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 16:51:51 2021 From: pethier7 at gmail.com (Phil Ethier) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 17:51:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> Split is better for security. You can?t punch it through and climb through the hole. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:18 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > ?Mike, last march I installed a mini-split in my bedroom. It was professionally sourced and installed (Carrer) > > I LOVE that thing. While it was only sized for my bedroom, I can cool the entire upstairs with it and even provide cooling for the downstairs. > > So, I looked at my shop (2600SQFT) and thought I could put one in there. > > I bought one from Walmart (the largest one I could find) and installed it myself. It is a really easy deal. I did have a buddy help me with the vacuum lines when i was done. > Now I will never consider a window mount unit, EVER! I had them in there for years, super loud, poor cooling (and a blast fan), terrible inefficent. Not to mention couldn't really seal the window from incects. Also, the need to put it in and take it out all the time. No more. > > I'm a mini split convert. > > The ONLY downside, is that if it is a nice cool day outside, they can't blow that air in the house. But I can use another fan for those times. > > Enjoy! > > Moose > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier7 at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From miq at bigllama.com Tue Apr 20 19:33:29 2021 From: miq at bigllama.com (MIQ MILLMAN) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 18:33:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> References: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Plus, you can just balance the unit on your head and walk up the ladder to install it. [image: CoolHead.jpg] (I took these photos almost 15 years ago in Ghana setting up a government data center in Kpando on the shores of Lake Volta) On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 3:52 PM Phil Ethier wrote: > Split is better for security. You can?t punch it through and climb through > the hole. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:18 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > ?Mike, last march I installed a mini-split in my bedroom. It was > professionally sourced and installed (Carrer) > > I LOVE that thing. While it was only sized for my bedroom, I can cool the > entire upstairs with it and even provide cooling for the downstairs. > > So, I looked at my shop (2600SQFT) and thought I could put one in there. > > I bought one from Walmart (the largest one I could find) and installed it > myself. It is a really easy deal. I did have a buddy help me with the > vacuum lines when i was done. > Now I will never consider a window mount unit, EVER! I had them in there > for years, super loud, poor cooling (and a blast fan), terrible > inefficent. Not to mention couldn't really seal the window from incects. > Also, the need to put it in and take it out all the time. No more. > > I'm a mini split convert. > > The ONLY downside, is that if it is a nice cool day outside, they can't > blow that air in the house. But I can use another fan for those times. > > Enjoy! > > Moose > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier7 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/miq at bigllama.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CoolHead.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 176782 bytes Desc: not available URL: From battmain at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 08:00:36 2021 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:00:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: References: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1062364582.4811607.1619013636948@mail.yahoo.com> I have a mini split in my master bedroom. I can set it to whatever temp I want and not worry about triple digit electric bills with the main AC.? It is so efficient I have it set in 80 most of the time, 78 or 79 during the summer and I can barely hear it. Go for it. As for wire and circuit, I am using my old 30a lawn sprinkler wiring and when I get around to it will add new sub panel to put? the sprinkler back in. IMO, mini split much more efficient than window AC as that was a thought at that time too.? Brian On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 21:34, MIQ MILLMAN wrote: _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/battmain at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Wed Apr 21 11:05:16 2021 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:05:16 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: <60eae1b3-80f2-4b68-a1fc-809c5db24d05@email.android.com> Message-ID: At Brian K?s suggestion I contacted SquareD and they indicated the box was not approved for two 120v circuits, only one 120v AND one 240v. Really misleading labelling. I?ve since bought another box specifically designed for two 120v circuits. These are fairly inexpensive. Thanks for all the help. It?s installed and I will get it wired in the next day or two. Jack From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of Jack Brooks Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 2:11 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box All, From a Sprinter forum I learned have two good choices. 1. I can use a heavy cable between the two breaker lugs, strip a portion of the wire in the center of the run and use a Split Bolt Bonding Connector https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OMIN7C/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1GAF1H4JQJZXC&psc=1 to join the incoming lead to the other cable where I would have stripped a section of the center of the cable. This uninsulated split bolt would need to be taped, etc., to protect it. 1. Alternatively, I can use an insulated Multi-Cable Connector, like this one. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GDFXC6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 Wago connectors are available for smaller circuits. They are simple click on/off connectors, but only go down to 10 AWG. I?m still debating which one to pick, but I like both of these options. Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. Jack From: Brian K > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 11:00 AM To: Jack Brooks > Cc: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box I'd reach out to Square D and see their recommendation for 120v options. There may be a bus bar jumper designed to connect the bars. They may even recommend a better panel. I'm under the impression that you can't connect multiple wires in a breaker lug. Even had a home inspector write up two wires on the same breaker as a violation. Brian On Apr 14, 2021 8:22 AM, Jack Brooks > wrote: Mark, Yes, that screw down connection is sized for 2/0, so I can squeeze two wires in one side of the circuit and run one over to the other side. This seemed logical, but I just wanted to be sure that it was a reasonable solution. Thank you, Jack From: Shop-talk > On Behalf Of Mark Miller Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 12:19 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box It is designed to be fed by 240V (2 phase 120) power. If you are feeding it with a single leg of 120V just tie the two main lugs together and run that from your power source. The lugs should be large enough to have your incoming power go into one and then have a second wire in that lug feed the other lug. Regards, Mark Miller 707-490-5834 markmiller at threeboysfarm.com On 4/13/2021 10:01 PM, shop-talk-request at autox.team.net wrote: -----Original Message----- From: David Scheidt Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:58 PM To: Jack Brooks Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Square D QO breaker Box On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:39 PM Jack Brooks wrote: I am building a Sprinter van into an RV and have a question about the 120v breaker box (SquareD QO24L70RBCP). It is a 2-Space, 4-Circuit load center. My concern is that while the Neutral bar has four positions on a common bar, the two breaker connections are independent, without a common bar between the two. This surprised the heck out of me. My inverter (Victron 24/70/3000) has a single AC output with a ?cage clamp? terminal, not a screw down or stud terminal which would be easy. I can run a 6 or 8 AWG from the inverter to the Breaker box, but it needs to go to the two separate screw down terminals. Physically, I believe I can run an 8 AWG wire into one breaker, and then back out to the other breaker, but I?m concerned about whether this is a code violation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arvidj999 at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 08:39:17 2021 From: arvidj999 at gmail.com (Arvid) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:39:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> References: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7858f569-3d85-07ef-5449-0c6d754444dc@gmail.com> My experience in Minnesota. TL;DR; Had a reliable HVAC company install a Mitsubishi mini-split. YMMV. I recently had a 24 x 36 building built behind the house. Lower level is 10ft high. It has a gambrel roof so there is a 12 x 36 x 9 upper level area. R30 in the walls and R40 in the roof. One 4 x 8 person door and one 8 x 9 garage door. The two long walls were framed with window air conditioner openings. No windows were actually installed but the exterior siding and interior walls could easily be modified by removing the insulation to create an opening for a window air conditioner. I am assuming it would have taken one or two days to convert the opening, install the window unit and seal everything back up again. I did all of the electrical in the building and had installed 220v 20amp outlets right next to both of the windowless openings in anticipation of window units. Primary winter heat is provided by a natural gas boiler with in-floor radiant heat. The "what size air conditioner?" needed to be addressed. Much research in the 9000 to 18000 BTU cooling capacity showed that 9000 are were more efficient than 12000, 12000 better than 15000, and 15000 better than 18000. My calculations suggested 12000 of cooling would do the trick. In that capacity window units seemed to be anywhere from $400 to $900, with mini-splits being in the "considerably more" category. One point for the window units. "What about efficiency?" I found several mini-splits in the 12000 size that were considerably more efficient than any similarly rated window unit. One point for the mini-split. Next was to look at the possibility of using the heating capabilities. More calculations and it looked like the electrical power used by the mini-split would be less than the cost per BTU of natural gas until the outside temperature got down to about 35f. Yes, there are lots of winter days in Minnesota where the high for the day is less than 35f but there are also many spring and fall days where 35f is the low so it seemed like a reasonable solution. The 15000 and 18000 units would have provided more heat but the trade-off was less efficient cooling. 12000 still seemed to be the reasonable solution given the boiler as primary winter heat. Another point for the mini-split. Finally, "DIY or have someone do it?" I had narrowed it down to a Mitsubishi 12000 mini-split. Certainly not the cheapest but I liked the reviews and both the heating and cooling efficiency. I looked at several on-line places that would provide all of the "stuff". The price came to around $2800 and I would have to come up with a way to evacuate the lines to make it all work. I then called the heating contractor that has serviced our home for the last 30 years and asked if they installed Mitsubishi (that is all they will install, which seemed to be a good sign) and how much would it cost. He came out and looked at the building and said "$3200". My response was "When?". "A few days after you have installed the electrical disconnect on the outside wall." I had already installed the 220v for the window unit so it only took a day to drop the wiring down and out the wall to an external 30 amp disconnect. The following Monday the HVAC contractor and a helper showed up at 7am. My job was to point to where I wanted the indoor unit. They drilled a hole in the wall, pushed the lines and wiring thru the hole and mounted the inside unit. They brought a stand for the outdoor unit and put the unit on top of it. Routed the lines and wiring to the unit and placed a nice cover over that mess. Attached the unit to the disconnect I had installed and then proceeded to evacuate the lines. Shortly thereafter they were showing me how to use the remote control and handing me all the paperwork. It was now 9:50am and they wanted to get some breakfast before their next job. I just started doing 'in the garage things" rather than 'to the garage' things. Yes, I probably could have save a lot of money by going with very inexpensive (possibly 'disposable') window units but even with the 'already have the framing work done' it would have been a hassle and a couple of days work for me (to be repeated again in xx years). But I would not have had any heating ability (which has been working quite nicely this spring as the boiler has not come on for many weeks) and would be paying more during the cooling season based on the reduced efficiency of the window units. From lists at dinospider.com Thu Apr 22 13:20:19 2021 From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 12:20:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: <7858f569-3d85-07ef-5449-0c6d754444dc@gmail.com> References: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> <7858f569-3d85-07ef-5449-0c6d754444dc@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56212932-5981-dd5e-d974-b4475cec4eee@dinospider.com> ? Well, ok, you guys talked me into it...Mini-Split it is. ?I looked into the wiring and it won't be as hard as I thought, I had completely forgotten that I left a pull string in the attic (scissor joists, so not enough room to crawl up there).? I must have been smarter in my old days to leave that pull string there, it will make pulling 12/3 pretty easy to the far corner of the garage and get a disconnect box there. ?Now the debate is self-install something like Mr. Cool DIY or have someone do it, but that is more a money debate than a shop-talk list debate :) ??? mike From patintexas at icloud.com Thu Apr 22 13:40:16 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:40:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: <56212932-5981-dd5e-d974-b4475cec4eee@dinospider.com> References: <56212932-5981-dd5e-d974-b4475cec4eee@dinospider.com> Message-ID: <8515BE90-ABBE-4FA4-93C0-264F0587E4E0@icloud.com> Mike, before you buy the 12-3, check to see if that?s really what you need. None of the a/c units I?ve wired required a neutral, so you may only need 12-2 w/ground. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: ? Well, ok, you guys talked me into it...Mini-Split it is. I looked into the wiring and it won't be as hard as I thought, I had completely forgotten that I left a pull string in the attic (scissor joists, so not enough room to crawl up there). I must have been smarter in my old days to leave that pull string there, it will make pulling 12/3 pretty easy to the far corner of the garage and get a disconnect box there. Now the debate is self-install something like Mr. Cool DIY or have someone do it, but that is more a money debate than a shop-talk list debate :) mike _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com From arvidj999 at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 14:28:07 2021 From: arvidj999 at gmail.com (Arvid) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:28:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As others will also mention ... At least for mine it was 220v with ground no neutral to disconnect for the outdoor unit. The outdoor unit has a transformer in it that will provide the 110v back to the indoor unit via the wiring that goes thru the same hole as the refrigerant tubing. Be sure to include all of the tubing, tubing covering, wire between the indoor and outdoor unit, the need to evacuate the lines, etc. At least on the Mitsubishi the outdoor unit came precharged with refrigerant but you still need to evacuate the lines between the indoor and outdoor unit before you turn the valve on the outdoor unit to release the refrigerant into the lines. I don't think anyone ships pre-sealed lines like Sears provided with their DIY Whole Home AC units that I installed in the house 35 years ago. Dean (THE HVAC GUY) replaced that unit about 25 years ago when the condenser stated leaking. Another reason to let a pro do it was the length of the lines themselves. I was concerned about my ability to cut the lines and properly flare the ends for a lifetime good seal. Dean had the correct tools to do it properly and he guaranteed his work. Of course you may be able to not cut the lines and just roll up any excess near the outdoor unit but ... I did begin to wonder though. We were talking while he was flaring the tubing and forgot to put the nut on before doing the flair. Obviously caught the error shortly thereafter. Note to self ... do not disturb the highly trained technician when he is working!! On 4/22/21 2:20 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: > Well, ok, you guys talked me into it...Mini-Split it is. > > ?I looked into the wiring and it won't be as hard as I thought, I had completely forgotten that I left a pull string in the attic (scissor joists, so not enough room to crawl up there).? I must have been smarter in my old days to leave that pull string there, it will make pulling 12/3 pretty easy to the far corner of the garage and get a disconnect box there. > > ?Now the debate is self-install something like Mr. Cool DIY or have someone do it, but that is more a money debate than a shop-talk list debate :) > > ??? mike > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation? $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999 at gmail.com > From arvidj999 at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 14:31:42 2021 From: arvidj999 at gmail.com (Arvid) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:31:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: <56212932-5981-dd5e-d974-b4475cec4eee@dinospider.com> References: <9709C4E7-C5FA-4C4B-A455-DE766D38F3F3@gmail.com> <7858f569-3d85-07ef-5449-0c6d754444dc@gmail.com> <56212932-5981-dd5e-d974-b4475cec4eee@dinospider.com> Message-ID: <027befb9-a901-e392-bd89-4b9e305f9937@gmail.com> One final note ... be sure the 20 amps that 12ga wire is rated for will be enough. IIRC the Mitsubishi asked for a 30 amp circuit even though the running current was less than 20. On 4/22/21 2:20 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: > Well, ok, you guys talked me into it...Mini-Split it is. > > ?I looked into the wiring and it won't be as hard as I thought, I had completely forgotten that I left a pull string in the attic (scissor joists, so not enough room to crawl up there).? I must have been smarter in my old days to leave that pull string there, it will make pulling 12/3 pretty easy to the far corner of the garage and get a disconnect box there. > > ?Now the debate is self-install something like Mr. Cool DIY or have someone do it, but that is more a money debate than a shop-talk list debate :) > > ??? mike > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation? $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999 at gmail.com > From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 16:43:43 2021 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 17:43:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: mini-split or window unit ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 22, 2021, at 15:29, Arvid wrote: > > I don't think anyone ships pre-sealed lines like Sears provided with their DIY Whole Home AC units that I installed in the house 35 years ago. Dean (THE HVAC GUY) replaced that unit about 25 years ago when the condenser stated leaking. That?s what the mr cool linsets are, and the attraction of them. The limita there is the lines will be too long. That reduces efficiency, depending on how much excess there is, and where it is. If it is out side, it will absorb heat (or lose it, when heating) there?s also pumping losses, which can be substantial. Cutting lines to length let?s you avoid that, and adjust the charge for line length. ( The pecharge Is for a given length of line. Longer, you add, shorter, you subtract). It?s not a huge problem, but one to consider. From stearman809 at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 11:20:52 2021 From: stearman809 at gmail.com (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:20:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this connecctor? Message-ID: <002901d73c52$d77d7ff0$86787fd0$@GMail.com> This is the recirculating pump connector for a Rheem tankless water heater. They sell a recirculating pump that includes the mating connector, but there is no description or part number for the plug. They refer to it as a Molex connector, but I can't find anything like it in Molex listings, though I may be missing it. I'd like to obtain another plug that will fit into this connector. What do I look for? Thanks ! Karl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20210428_112345.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3432670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave1massey at cs.com Wed Apr 28 13:46:34 2021 From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:46:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this connecctor? In-Reply-To: <002901d73c52$d77d7ff0$86787fd0$@GMail.com> References: <002901d73c52$d77d7ff0$86787fd0$@GMail.com> Message-ID: <169681387.852451.1619639194959@mail.yahoo.com> I've run across situations where a connector made by a major manufacturer is not available in the general market place and are unique to the manufacturer.? Probably their way of capturing the after market.? Good luck. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Karl Vacek To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Wed, Apr 28, 2021 12:20 pm Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this connecctor? This is the recirculating pump connector for a Rheem tankless water heater.? They sell a recirculating pump that includes the mating connector, but there is no description or part number for the plug.? They refer to it as a Molex connector, but I can?t find anything like it in Molex listings, though I may be missing it. ?I?d like to obtain another plug that will fit into this connector.? What do I look for? ?Thanks ! Karl ? ?_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jem at milleredp.com Wed Apr 28 14:12:25 2021 From: jem at milleredp.com (jem at milleredp.com) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:12:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this connecctor? In-Reply-To: <169681387.852451.1619639194959@mail.yahoo.com> References: <002901d73c52$d77d7ff0$86787fd0$@GMail.com> <169681387.852451.1619639194959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54ba934ae1fed33aa97e8ff593e5c707@milleredp.com> On 2021-04-28 12:46, DAVID MASSEY wrote: > I've run across situations where a connector made by a major > manufacturer is not available in the general market place and are > unique to the manufacturer.? Probably their way of capturing the after > market.? I haven't looked at the details on this one, but sometimes a while looking over Mouser and Digikey will turn up miracles. If you know the part vendor brand e.g. AMP you're more likely to get a hit. Appliance mfrs are far less likely to do something weird than, say, GM. John. From dhlocker at comcast.net Wed Apr 28 14:37:22 2021 From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 16:37:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this connecctor? In-Reply-To: <002901d73c52$d77d7ff0$86787fd0$@GMail.com> References: <002901d73c52$d77d7ff0$86787fd0$@GMail.com> Message-ID: <17c7d01a-41aa-1e27-f410-d1815b9648ee@comcast.net> Hard to tell what the contact pitch is and whether the contacts are flat or round. That information would reduce the selection list from about 200 to a more manageable number. Digikey link for the 207 hits: If that doesn't work, start a search for molex connectors, click the "Rectangular Connectors - Housings" and drill down from there. HTH, Donald. -- On 2021-04-28 1:20 p.m., Karl Vacek wrote: > This is the recirculating pump connector for a Rheem tankless water > heater.? They sell a recirculating pump that includes the mating > connector, but there is no description or part number for the plug.? > They refer to it as a Molex connector, but I can?t find anything like it > in Molex listings, though I may be missing it. > > ? > > I?d like to obtain another plug that will fit into this connector.? What > do I look for? > > ? > > Thanks ! > Karl > > ? > > ? > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net > From patintexas at icloud.com Wed Apr 28 14:42:41 2021 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 15:42:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this connecctor? In-Reply-To: <17c7d01a-41aa-1e27-f410-d1815b9648ee@comcast.net> References: <17c7d01a-41aa-1e27-f410-d1815b9648ee@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17B28E2F-30BB-42AF-BFF5-BC966F2D5E9E@icloud.com> If it?s out of warranty You also cut the plugs off & replace them with standard ones. Or keep an eye out on eBay or Craigslist to find a complete unit listed for parts. Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Apr 28, 2021, at 3:39 PM, Donald H Locker wrote: ?Hard to tell what the contact pitch is and whether the contacts are flat or round. That information would reduce the selection list from about 200 to a more manageable number. Digikey link for the 207 hits: If that doesn't work, start a search for molex connectors, click the "Rectangular Connectors - Housings" and drill down from there. HTH, Donald. -- On 2021-04-28 1:20 p.m., Karl Vacek wrote: > This is the recirculating pump connector for a Rheem tankless water > heater. They sell a recirculating pump that includes the mating > connector, but there is no description or part number for the plug. > They refer to it as a Molex connector, but I can?t find anything like it > in Molex listings, though I may be missing it. > > > > I?d like to obtain another plug that will fit into this connector. What > do I look for? > > > > Thanks ! > Karl > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com