From trmarty at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  1 06:51:49 2020
From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:51:49 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway gates
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3688.1596247355.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.3688.1596247355.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <BL0PR02MB451493AC64B8BEA4729A8021BA4F0@BL0PR02MB4514.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>

I have a gravel driveway with swinging gates going back to the shop. There are two pipes driven into the ground that receive the drop rods on the gates when they are closed.  I need to add a few inches of gravel to the driveway and that would bury the pipes making them not very usable. Any ideas on home to gab these pipes and pull them up to match the new surface of the gravel?

Thanks,
Marty
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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Sat Aug  1 06:56:21 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 05:56:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway gates
In-Reply-To: <BL0PR02MB451493AC64B8BEA4729A8021BA4F0@BL0PR02MB4514.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.3688.1596247355.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
 <BL0PR02MB451493AC64B8BEA4729A8021BA4F0@BL0PR02MB4514.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgYtwBdOAbmgTURVv0=ceZw+Lbrwo_mN9vgGnJxZvsZKgA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Marty,

Could you just put a coupler on the end of the existing pipe in the ground
and then insert a short new length of pipe in the coupler to clear the
new layer of gravel?

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:52 AM marty sukey <trmarty at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I have a gravel driveway with swinging gates going back to the shop. There
> are two pipes driven into the ground that receive the drop rods on the
> gates when they are closed.  I need to add a few inches of gravel to the
> driveway and that would bury the pipes making them not very usable. Any
> ideas on home to gab these pipes and pull them up to match the new surface
> of the gravel?
>
> Thanks,
> Marty
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Sat Aug  1 07:15:34 2020
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:15:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway gates
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgYtwBdOAbmgTURVv0=ceZw+Lbrwo_mN9vgGnJxZvsZKgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3688.1596247355.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
 <BL0PR02MB451493AC64B8BEA4729A8021BA4F0@BL0PR02MB4514.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAG1pxgYtwBdOAbmgTURVv0=ceZw+Lbrwo_mN9vgGnJxZvsZKgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F82AD0C6-65F4-4D85-972F-58FC0C9B3206@gmail.com>

Assuming you can expose enough of the surface, could you could weld a ring onto the end of it and then try limiting it up with an engine lift?  I?ve used my lift for many jobs besides pulling/installing engines, such as pulling wooden fence posts and even bushes out of the ground.  You might have to provide a base for the lift, but could drill a large hole in a pice of plywood and place that over the pipe.  Pull up the pipe, grind off the ring and then tap it down to the old location.  Or, remove it entirely and pound in a new, slightly longer piece.

Jim

> On Aug 1, 2020, at 8:56 AM, old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Marty,
> 
> Could you just put a coupler on the end of the existing pipe in the ground and then insert a short new length of pipe in the coupler to clear the new layer of gravel?
> 
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:52 AM marty sukey <trmarty at hotmail.com <mailto:trmarty at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> I have a gravel driveway with swinging gates going back to the shop. There are two pipes driven into the ground that receive the drop rods on the gates when they are closed.  I need to add a few inches of gravel to the driveway and that would bury the pipes making them not very usable. Any ideas on home to gab these pipes and pull them up to match the new surface of the gravel?
> 
> Thanks,
> Marty
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/1789alpine at gmail.com
> 

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From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Aug  1 07:59:58 2020
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric Russell)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:59:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway gates
In-Reply-To: <BL0PR02MB451493AC64B8BEA4729A8021BA4F0@BL0PR02MB4514.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.3688.1596247355.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
 <BL0PR02MB451493AC64B8BEA4729A8021BA4F0@BL0PR02MB4514.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <0752f823-df37-eb4b-ac83-607a8c8f0c79@mebtel.net>

Maybe a blind bearing puller? Might even be available for free rental 
from an auto supply store...


Eric Russell

Mebane, NC


On 8/1/2020 8:51 AM, marty sukey wrote:
> I have a gravel driveway with swinging gates going back to the shop. 
> There are two pipes driven into the ground that receive the drop rods 
> on the gates when they are closed.? I need to add a few inches of 
> gravel to the driveway and that would bury the pipes making them not 
> very usable. Any ideas on home to gab these pipes and pull them up to 
> match the new surface of the gravel?

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From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Aug  1 08:15:46 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 07:15:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Driveway gates
In-Reply-To: <F82AD0C6-65F4-4D85-972F-58FC0C9B3206@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3688.1596247355.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
 <BL0PR02MB451493AC64B8BEA4729A8021BA4F0@BL0PR02MB4514.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAG1pxgYtwBdOAbmgTURVv0=ceZw+Lbrwo_mN9vgGnJxZvsZKgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <F82AD0C6-65F4-4D85-972F-58FC0C9B3206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <de371ceb-5bff-cf3a-7e8a-20f9ce3fa813@comcast.net>

OT, but a friend in construction informed me that these ('drop rods') 
are called 'cane locks' in the biz (I'd never heard that).

O(n) T: I think in the long run it'd be easiest to dig them out and 
're-plant.'

Bob

On 8/1/2020 6:15 AM, Jim Stone wrote:
> Assuming you can expose enough of the surface, could you could weld a 
> ring onto the end of it and then try limiting it up with an engine 
> lift? ?I?ve used my lift for many jobs besides pulling/installing 
> engines, such as pulling wooden fence posts and even bushes out of the 
> ground. ?You might have to provide a base for the lift, but could 
> drill a large hole in a pice of plywood and place that over the pipe. 
> ?Pull up the pipe, grind off the ring and then tap it down to the old 
> location. ?Or, remove it entirely and pound in a new, slightly longer 
> piece.
>
> Jim
>
>> On Aug 1, 2020, at 8:56 AM, old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:dirtbeard at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Marty,
>>
>> Could you just put a coupler on the end of the existing pipe in the 
>> ground and then insert a short new length of pipe in the coupler to 
>> clear the new?layer of gravel?
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:52 AM marty sukey <trmarty at hotmail.com 
>> <mailto:trmarty at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     I have a gravel driveway with swinging gates going back to the
>>     shop. There are two pipes driven into the ground that receive the
>>     drop rods on the gates when they are closed.? I need to add a few
>>     inches of gravel to the driveway and that would bury the pipes
>>     making them not very usable. Any ideas on home to gab these pipes
>>     and pull them up to match the new surface of the gravel?
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>     Marty
>>

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From eric at megageek.com  Sat Aug  1 09:38:53 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:38:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time Warp? 1993 or 1994?
Message-ID: <OFAECE3110.E0572705-ON852585B7.0055F56C-852585B7.0055F56F@mail.megageek.com>

Can anyone explain what I might be seeing here.

I have a F150 Ford pick up, tag on door is dated "3/1994"
The VIN, title, Carfax all say it's a 1994.

Every time I get a part for it, they don't fit. If I order the 1993 part, it's perfect.
This has happened with oil pan, alternator, motor mounts, etc. These are major parts and the difference huge.

What can be going on here? All paperwork and official docs show this as a 1994, but all the parts seem to be 1993.

Any ideas? I still have work to do on the truck and I hate ordering the wrong parts.





"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson -Who is John Galt?

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Aug  1 09:46:27 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 08:46:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time Warp? 1993 or 1994?
In-Reply-To: <OFAECE3110.E0572705-ON852585B7.0055F56C-852585B7.0055F56F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFAECE3110.E0572705-ON852585B7.0055F56C-852585B7.0055F56F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <25979eab-4971-519e-e369-2ea274376033@comcast.net>

I had a similar issue with my '96 Ranger: the rubber pad on the cruise 
control buttons dissolved--yep, dissolved, a known problem--and the 
'official' replacement part didn't fit, but another year/model (mostly 
the same platform as the contemporary Explorer) did. Since your 150 is a 
relatively early '94 it's conceivable they used-up any '93 parts still 
on the shelf (British cars are famous/notorious for this sort of thing).

On 8/1/2020 8:38 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Can anyone explain what I might be seeing here.
>
> I have a F150 Ford pick up, tag on door is dated "3/1994"
> The VIN, title, Carfax all say it's a 1994.
>
> Every time I get a part for it, they don't fit. If I order the 1993 part, it's perfect.
> This has happened with oil pan, alternator, motor mounts, etc. These are major parts and the difference huge.
>
> What can be going on here? All paperwork and official docs show this as a 1994, but all the parts seem to be 1993.
>
> Any ideas? I still have work to do on the truck and I hate ordering the wrong parts.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson -Who is John Galt?
> _______________________________________________
>


From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Aug  1 10:15:11 2020
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:15:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time Warp? 1993 or 1994?
In-Reply-To: <25979eab-4971-519e-e369-2ea274376033@comcast.net>
References: <OFAECE3110.E0572705-ON852585B7.0055F56C-852585B7.0055F56F@mail.megageek.com>
 <25979eab-4971-519e-e369-2ea274376033@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CA+k5suoUuBvX_Sn7+y+J58OL6HGfpAqJkU1puhs=L-Tn0=araA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:48 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I had a similar issue with my '96 Ranger: the rubber pad on the cruise
> control buttons dissolved--yep, dissolved, a known problem--and the
> 'official' replacement part didn't fit, but another year/model (mostly
> the same platform as the contemporary Explorer) did. Since your 150 is a
> relatively early '94 it's conceivable they used-up any '93 parts still
> on the shelf (British cars are famous/notorious for this sort of thing).
>

Everyone does that.

94 was the year the diesel changed from the navistar whatever to
powerstroke, , which happened in the middle of the year, probably
overlapping .   It might be related to that.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Sat Aug  1 13:49:40 2020
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:49:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time Warp? 1993 or 1994?
In-Reply-To: <OFAECE3110.E0572705-ON852585B7.0055F56C-852585B7.0055F56F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFAECE3110.E0572705-ON852585B7.0055F56C-852585B7.0055F56F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRWSBUMADOQ3pOVf5gbMR94dL=Dh_8kEH34NQZQa4Tn1vg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Eric,

Small world.  I had a 1994 F150 (pic below, fire truck red!  LOL) and it
was actually a 1993.5 MY (tagged and sold as 1994), so your experience
makes perfect sense.
[image: F150 001.jpg] (

Thanks,
Ian

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 11:39 AM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Can anyone explain what I might be seeing here.
>
> I have a F150 Ford pick up, tag on door is dated "3/1994"
> The VIN, title, Carfax all say it's a 1994.
>
> Every time I get a part for it, they don't fit. If I order the 1993 part,
> it's perfect.
> This has happened with oil pan, alternator, motor mounts, etc. These are
> major parts and the difference huge.
>
> What can be going on here? All paperwork and official docs show this as a
> 1994, but all the parts seem to be 1993.
>
> Any ideas? I still have work to do on the truck and I hate ordering the
> wrong parts.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson -Who is John Galt?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org
>
>
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From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Sat Aug  1 21:00:48 2020
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 03:00:48 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Piston Rings Pliers
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMS-eOqsF22h1PGh=6_r43rZfr3D+d12LU30XQcUqF8_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CMS-eOqsF22h1PGh=6_r43rZfr3D+d12LU30XQcUqF8_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR0401MB3670E0B4E26CC1A1D1028C84B44C0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

My .02: Don't use bloody amazon. Support your local FLAPS during these troubled times.

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2020 5:20 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Piston Rings Pliers

Assembling my Spitfire engine.  Bought quality piston rings, so I figure I ought to use the proper tools to install them.  Anything magic about them, or will any $10 pair from Amazon work just fine?
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From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Sun Aug  2 13:01:14 2020
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:01:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Piston Rings Pliers
In-Reply-To: <34c51c87-2558-35f4-2246-e94b76391c87@comcast.net>
References: <CAO8Q7CMS-eOqsF22h1PGh=6_r43rZfr3D+d12LU30XQcUqF8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <37615653-9FE9-4449-A72D-2D3AE13841C9@icloud.com>
 <CAJ8HLP9hyQpbT0MT89HggSawvK6z=WNt0=cc4DpXHsA5+T8vaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <34c51c87-2558-35f4-2246-e94b76391c87@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP_XFdhQejFb_-6HOiQnLzSraxXQ4CzRO_jhZbqGVJVLOg@mail.gmail.com>

Bob-

Sadly, I suspect you're correct on the origin of the legit Lisle tool. I
was just indicating that you'll get the part from the actual Lisle-approved
Chinese production line, and not the knockoff from a different factory!

-Peter

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> I got a fiver says the O'Reilly set is made in China. I paid good money
> for a Lisle brake tubing bender and, well, you know.
>
> On 7/31/2020 5:44 PM, Peter Murray wrote:
>
> Most auto-parts places should have them for about $10. My local
> O'Reily's has them for $9.99. No waiting for shipping, and you're more
> likely to get an actual one, and not a Chinese knockoff!
>
> Jeff, I'm sure what Pat suggests will work with the LS you're installing
> in the Spitfire. Should be a hoot when finished!
>
> -Peter
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:37 PM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for posting your question so THATSwhat those pliers are in my tool
>> chest! I haven?t used them yet but am starting an engine rebuild coming up.
>>
>> As to which to buy, I?d go with the Lisle 33500 on eBay for $10. USA
>> made.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:20 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Assembling my Spitfire engine.  Bought quality piston rings, so I figure
>> I ought to use the proper tools to install them.  Anything magic about
>> them, or will any $10 pair from Amazon work just fine?
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com
>
>
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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Sun Aug  2 13:29:11 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:29:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Piston Rings Pliers
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP_XFdhQejFb_-6HOiQnLzSraxXQ4CzRO_jhZbqGVJVLOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CMS-eOqsF22h1PGh=6_r43rZfr3D+d12LU30XQcUqF8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <37615653-9FE9-4449-A72D-2D3AE13841C9@icloud.com>
 <CAJ8HLP9hyQpbT0MT89HggSawvK6z=WNt0=cc4DpXHsA5+T8vaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <34c51c87-2558-35f4-2246-e94b76391c87@comcast.net>
 <CAJ8HLP_XFdhQejFb_-6HOiQnLzSraxXQ4CzRO_jhZbqGVJVLOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgaxopNwaUWjc2UBUTKSzM0kUzmmEUU-LzNSqtwHzKgK4g@mail.gmail.com>

>From my experience all the Lisle tools I have purchased are (or at least
were) USA-made.

best,

doug

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:01 PM Peter Murray <peterwmurray at gmail.com> wrote:

> Bob-
>
> Sadly, I suspect you're correct on the origin of the legit Lisle tool. I
> was just indicating that you'll get the part from the actual Lisle-approved
> Chinese production line, and not the knockoff from a different factory!
>
> -Peter
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I got a fiver says the O'Reilly set is made in China. I paid good money
>> for a Lisle brake tubing bender and, well, you know.
>>
>> On 7/31/2020 5:44 PM, Peter Murray wrote:
>>
>> Most auto-parts places should have them for about $10. My local
>> O'Reily's has them for $9.99. No waiting for shipping, and you're more
>> likely to get an actual one, and not a Chinese knockoff!
>>
>> Jeff, I'm sure what Pat suggests will work with the LS you're installing
>> in the Spitfire. Should be a hoot when finished!
>>
>> -Peter
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:37 PM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for posting your question so THATSwhat those pliers are in my
>>> tool chest! I haven?t used them yet but am starting an engine rebuild
>>> coming up.
>>>
>>> As to which to buy, I?d go with the Lisle 33500 on eBay for $10. USA
>>> made.
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>> Pat
>>>
>>> Pat Horne
>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:20 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> Assembling my Spitfire engine.  Bought quality piston rings, so I figure
>>> I ought to use the proper tools to install them.  Anything magic about
>>> them, or will any $10 pair from Amazon work just fine?
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
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From eric at megageek.com  Mon Aug  3 10:55:09 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:55:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower PTO shaft
Message-ID: <OFEE0FFDE6.120CB542-ON852585B9.005CF0D3-852585B9.005CF0D3@mail.megageek.com>

OK, here is another one I can't figure out.

I have a 1978 Excel/Hustler 275 zero turn mower. It still runs great and works great.

Problem is that the PTO shaft needs to be 'balanced' as it vibrates the mower deck a ton.

This is a shaft 'within a shaft' design (like a standard tractor PTO shaft, only smaller.)

Does anyone know how to balance a shaft like that?

Thanks.

Eric



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson -Who is John Galt?

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 11:25:54 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:25:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower PTO shaft
In-Reply-To: <OFEE0FFDE6.120CB542-ON852585B9.005CF0D3-852585B9.005CF0D3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFEE0FFDE6.120CB542-ON852585B9.005CF0D3-852585B9.005CF0D3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YDMa9SK=pmAyuaqWnCsRwbcGWE4mJwdaQ843QDtdjbNsw@mail.gmail.com>

Usually not possible.  THe vibration is often caused by one of two things.
Either a bearing at one end of the shaft has gone bad, or the shaft itself
has worn.  It could be the u-joint on the shaft, but usually it is the
sliding section that has worn to the point that it is wobbling.  I
recommend replacement.  This place:
http://www.the-mower-shop-inc.com/grasshopper_splined_shaft.aspx  has some
really nice splined shafts that might work,  DEFINITELY overkill, but they
will outlast the rest of your mower, guaranteed.  You will have to call
then to check shaft length, spline count, etc.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:55 AM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> OK, here is another one I can't figure out.
>
> I have a 1978 Excel/Hustler 275 zero turn mower. It still runs great and
> works great.
>
> Problem is that the PTO shaft needs to be 'balanced' as it vibrates the
> mower deck a ton.
>
> This is a shaft 'within a shaft' design (like a standard tractor PTO
> shaft, only smaller.)
>
> Does anyone know how to balance a shaft like that?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson -Who is John Galt?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 13:37:13 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:37:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a fun one....

Suppose you had a brand-new facility (300,000 sf office and research
campus).  Further suppose you had a $25k budget to buy some tools to start
your new Facility Maintenance group to work on the place.  We have HVAC,
Electric, Plumbing, BAS, Access Control.  Plus the usual doors and windows.

In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any
special tools will be furnished with construction).  Assume

Wrench sets, screwdrivers, pipe wrenches, voltmeters...what else?  Names
of reasonable quality tools would be appreciated.
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Mon Aug  3 13:43:52 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:43:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4F80E65-EB82-4C5F-8B4F-3962C6155623@icloud.com>

CATx Cable/fiber tester
Power tester
Digital camera? Not so necessary these days w/phone cameras
Electrical/plumbing lockout tags

Not a ?tool? in the normal sense but a documentation system to keep up with current configurations

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 3, 2020, at 2:38 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Here's a fun one....

Suppose you had a brand-new facility (300,000 sf office and research campus).  Further suppose you had a $25k budget to buy some tools to start your new Facility Maintenance group to work on the place.  We have HVAC, Electric, Plumbing, BAS, Access Control.  Plus the usual doors and windows.

In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any special tools will be furnished with construction).  Assume 

Wrench sets, screwdrivers, pipe wrenches, voltmeters...what else?  Names of reasonable quality tools would be appreciated.


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 15:18:27 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:18:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014901d669db$a132e5b0$e398b110$@gmail.com>

Hi Jeff:

Will you be doing your own validation work in-house? If so, I would include whatever you need to do smoke tests on fume hoods, differential pressure testing for air locks and between rooms with differing classifications. Air pressure gauges, water/fluid pressure gauges [for testing vessel water jackets, etc.] 

 

I would decide on one brand of cordless tools, and see if I could keep the number of different types/sizes o chargers and batteries to a minimum.

 

If you will be using a CMMS [computerized maintenance management system], you might consider getting ruggedized tablets for field technicians to use. The CMMS would deliver instructions for maintenance or repair, call out parts and tools needed, and give the tech  place to record the work as started, in-progress and completed.  I recall you work in a regulated facility, so it might also cross-reference whether the tech is current on required training for the work specified.

 

These are idea starters, I suspect we all will come up with more suggestions in the coming days?

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 3:37 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List

 

Here's a fun one....

 

Suppose you had a brand-new facility (300,000 sf office and research campus).  Further suppose you had a $25k budget to buy some tools to start your new Facility Maintenance group to work on the place.  We have HVAC, Electric, Plumbing, BAS, Access Control.  Plus the usual doors and windows.

 

In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any special tools will be furnished with construction).  Assume 

 

Wrench sets, screwdrivers, pipe wrenches, voltmeters...what else?  Names of reasonable quality tools would be appreciated.

 

 

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From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Mon Aug  3 15:47:33 2020
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:47:33 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts
Message-ID: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hey all,

Who do you for toilet parts? My standby for what not was always RepairClinic.com but they don't do toilets.

thanks
tim
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Mon Aug  3 15:50:23 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:50:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <67C388B8-8E21-4974-95CE-74738388B2AD@icloud.com>

I usually use my locally owned mom & pop hardware store. It?s an Ace hardware franchise. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 3, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Tim . <tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com> wrote:

?
Hey all, 

Who do you for toilet parts? My standby for what not was always RepairClinic.com but they don't do toilets. 

thanks
tim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Mon Aug  3 17:27:24 2020
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 23:27:24 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SN4PR0401MB3677DB31A33F18A4A4ADC929B44D0@SN4PR0401MB3677.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Turns out my toilet's innards are as old as I feared so the parts are common.

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Tim . <tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com>
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:47 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts

Hey all,

Who do you for toilet parts? My standby for what not was always RepairClinic.com but they don't do toilets.

thanks
tim
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From szwedj at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 17:29:29 2020
From: szwedj at gmail.com (Joe Szwed)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:29:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts
Message-ID: <94DC3B87-4137-4D63-AEF9-1BFDC05692D7@gmail.com>

For plumbing and hvac stuff online, www.supplyhouse.com is hard to beat.  We use them at work if we run short of something and need it in a pinch.  Stuff ships pretty fast too like McMaster Carr.

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  3 18:15:54 2020
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:15:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <32c340ea-5658-f59d-82ed-0131fb674e95@earthlink.net>

I second the idea of a local hardware store like Ace or a plumbing 
supply house.? Many of the guts of a toilet can also be replaced with 
universal parts, so it may be worth taking the bad part and seeing if 
they have a match.? I've been helped a few times buy the small local stores.

If you are looking at a big bill for an old toilet, it might be better 
going for a more modern water saving replacement, especially if you have 
expensive water.? Some are actually pretty decent now.

Brian

On 8/3/2020 2:47 PM, Tim . wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Who do you for toilet parts? My standby for what not was always 
> RepairClinic.com but they don't do toilets.
>
> thanks
> tim
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
>

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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 18:55:02 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:55:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts
In-Reply-To: <32c340ea-5658-f59d-82ed-0131fb674e95@earthlink.net>
References: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <32c340ea-5658-f59d-82ed-0131fb674e95@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgZbFcoBOihAfJKV18WSEn63298Gn61h-X=ayaOAuU3g8w@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding old/odd toilet parts in particular, I would suggest taking the
old parts down to the local hardware store and have them match-up the
replacement parts.

Otherwise one could end up with a great personal inventory of similar parts
that will not work and will never be used (been there and I hate doing
that).  :-)

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:16 PM Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> I second the idea of a local hardware store like Ace or a plumbing supply
> house.  Many of the guts of a toilet can also be replaced with universal
> parts, so it may be worth taking the bad part and seeing if they have a
> match.  I've been helped a few times buy the small local stores.
>
> If you are looking at a big bill for an old toilet, it might be better
> going for a more modern water saving replacement, especially if you have
> expensive water.  Some are actually pretty decent now.
>
> Brian
>
> On 8/3/2020 2:47 PM, Tim . wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> Who do you for toilet parts? My standby for what not was always
> RepairClinic.com but they don't do toilets.
>
> thanks
> tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
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> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 06:50:12 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:50:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COrw4ugYOPf7dE_Y8C06+BjoXm=tOOUrNi=VQ+9R8hsyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any
> special tools will be furnished with construction).
>

Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful
suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources
(GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually
manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically
for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:

https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3


This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one
purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It
looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my
own if I felt it was an advantage.

Anyone have any experience with these?

-- Jeff
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Tue Aug  4 07:05:16 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:05:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COrw4ugYOPf7dE_Y8C06+BjoXm=tOOUrNi=VQ+9R8hsyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7COrw4ugYOPf7dE_Y8C06+BjoXm=tOOUrNi=VQ+9R8hsyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A7C7F31-C2E3-4CAF-95C3-DC1F555A9712@icloud.com>

Off hand it looked like a good deal if the quality was good. But when I got to the end of the list I saw that of the 1141 pieces that 1000 are considered consumable parts. 

There are some consumable items on this list that you will need but I suspect not half of them. 

I suggest you build your own set just buying your tools in smaller sets such as listed in Granger list. It will take longer but you won?t end up overpaying & not have to deal with all the cruft you won?t ever use. 

Be sure to include safety equipment & a first aid kit. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 4, 2020, at 7:51 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

?


> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any special tools will be furnished with construction). 

Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources (GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:

https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3 

This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my own if I felt it was an advantage. 

Anyone have any experience with these?

-- Jeff
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 07:06:00 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:06:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COrw4ugYOPf7dE_Y8C06+BjoXm=tOOUrNi=VQ+9R8hsyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM93-GNbDHkm3t331zH235crv5ANJMQsb_dsrYY7W=jsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7COrw4ugYOPf7dE_Y8C06+BjoXm=tOOUrNi=VQ+9R8hsyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COr7XS9F+eren0+2M-oD2sjiBUOuTiLakbAy67E6TKkxQ@mail.gmail.com>

In case you wonder what's in it:

https://www.mobile-shop.com/downloads/pm-cart-tools-and-parts.pdf

Seems to be a little light on large wrenches.


And then there's this:

https://www.mobile-shop.com/golf-cart-utility

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any
>> special tools will be furnished with construction).
>>
>
> Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful
> suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources
> (GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually
> manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically
> for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:
>
>
> https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3
>
>
> This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one
> purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It
> looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my
> own if I felt it was an advantage.
>
> Anyone have any experience with these?
>
> -- Jeff
>
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Tue Aug  4 07:24:30 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:24:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COr7XS9F+eren0+2M-oD2sjiBUOuTiLakbAy67E6TKkxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7COr7XS9F+eren0+2M-oD2sjiBUOuTiLakbAy67E6TKkxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A0309E14-FBD9-4739-ACA4-BC6FEDB5878C@icloud.com>

On quick look it appears that this is a very similar kit to the granger kit with less Cruft for much cheaper. 

https://www.zoro.com/mobile-shop-facility-maintenance-tool-set-tool-cart-ms-cec-pro/i/G8538625/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuuT8gdKB6wIVRNbACh1_zQ4LEAQYAyABEgK15PD_BwE

Peace,
Pat


Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 4, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

?
In case you wonder what's in it:

https://www.mobile-shop.com/downloads/pm-cart-tools-and-parts.pdf  

Seems to be a little light on large wrenches.


And then there's this:

https://www.mobile-shop.com/golf-cart-utility  

> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any special tools will be furnished with construction). 
> 
> Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources (GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:
> 
> https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3 
> 
> This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my own if I felt it was an advantage. 
> 
> Anyone have any experience with these?
> 
> -- Jeff
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 07:49:34 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:49:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <A0309E14-FBD9-4739-ACA4-BC6FEDB5878C@icloud.com>
References: <CAO8Q7COr7XS9F+eren0+2M-oD2sjiBUOuTiLakbAy67E6TKkxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A0309E14-FBD9-4739-ACA4-BC6FEDB5878C@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COMVUbyTAjssasr_t6m9sGespyy+ntey-ueWBximJUdJA@mail.gmail.com>

Yep.  Same maker, different contents.  It's a smaller cart that doesn't
have the worktop or the vise.   I'll have to look at good quality rolling
toolboxes - that was my original plan, before I had a million other details
to deal with.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:24 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:

> On quick look it appears that this is a very similar kit to the granger
> kit with less Cruft for much cheaper.
>
>
> https://www.zoro.com/mobile-shop-facility-maintenance-tool-set-tool-cart-ms-cec-pro/i/G8538625/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuuT8gdKB6wIVRNbACh1_zQ4LEAQYAyABEgK15PD_BwE
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 4, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> In case you wonder what's in it:
>
> https://www.mobile-shop.com/downloads/pm-cart-tools-and-parts.pdf
>
> Seems to be a little light on large wrenches.
>
>
> And then there's this:
>
> https://www.mobile-shop.com/golf-cart-utility
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider
>>> any special tools will be furnished with construction).
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful
>> suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources
>> (GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually
>> manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically
>> for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:
>>
>>
>> https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3
>>
>>
>> This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one
>> purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It
>> looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my
>> own if I felt it was an advantage.
>>
>> Anyone have any experience with these?
>>
>> -- Jeff
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
>
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 07:54:25 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:54:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COMVUbyTAjssasr_t6m9sGespyy+ntey-ueWBximJUdJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7COr7XS9F+eren0+2M-oD2sjiBUOuTiLakbAy67E6TKkxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A0309E14-FBD9-4739-ACA4-BC6FEDB5878C@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COMVUbyTAjssasr_t6m9sGespyy+ntey-ueWBximJUdJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CORBfwU21+7jhgpHL5CKzPmX3S0Y8ydrjJAZcD+NKLZkw@mail.gmail.com>

That's weird.

Zoro:
- Zoro #: G8538625
- Mfr #: MS-CEC-PRO
-
- $3,662.57
-
-

Grainger:
- Item # 6ETU9
- Mfr. Model # MS-CEC-PRO
-
- Your Price
$1,824.67 / each

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:49 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yep.  Same maker, different contents.  It's a smaller cart that doesn't
> have the worktop or the vise.   I'll have to look at good quality rolling
> toolboxes - that was my original plan, before I had a million other details
> to deal with.
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:24 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> On quick look it appears that this is a very similar kit to the granger
>> kit with less Cruft for much cheaper.
>>
>>
>> https://www.zoro.com/mobile-shop-facility-maintenance-tool-set-tool-cart-ms-cec-pro/i/G8538625/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuuT8gdKB6wIVRNbACh1_zQ4LEAQYAyABEgK15PD_BwE
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> In case you wonder what's in it:
>>
>> https://www.mobile-shop.com/downloads/pm-cart-tools-and-parts.pdf
>>
>> Seems to be a little light on large wrenches.
>>
>>
>> And then there's this:
>>
>> https://www.mobile-shop.com/golf-cart-utility
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider
>>>> any special tools will be furnished with construction).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful
>>> suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources
>>> (GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually
>>> manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically
>>> for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3
>>>
>>>
>>> This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one
>>> purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It
>>> looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my
>>> own if I felt it was an advantage.
>>>
>>> Anyone have any experience with these?
>>>
>>> -- Jeff
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>>
>>
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 07:59:51 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:59:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CORBfwU21+7jhgpHL5CKzPmX3S0Y8ydrjJAZcD+NKLZkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7COr7XS9F+eren0+2M-oD2sjiBUOuTiLakbAy67E6TKkxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A0309E14-FBD9-4739-ACA4-BC6FEDB5878C@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COMVUbyTAjssasr_t6m9sGespyy+ntey-ueWBximJUdJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7CORBfwU21+7jhgpHL5CKzPmX3S0Y8ydrjJAZcD+NKLZkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CO=tUCSc4h1qojdupSwx3LuU-gKz09TiEd6tXLBz7AzTw@mail.gmail.com>

If I use a browser that I haven't used to log into Grainger, the price
jumps to $4,480.00



On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:54 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

> That's weird.
>
> Zoro:
>
>    - Zoro #: G8538625
>
>
>
>    - Mfr #: MS-CEC-PRO
>    -
>    - $3,662.57
>    -
>    -
>
>
> Grainger:
>
>    - Item # 6ETU9
>    - Mfr. Model # MS-CEC-PRO
>    -
>    - Your Price
>    $1,824.67 / each
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:49 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yep.  Same maker, different contents.  It's a smaller cart that doesn't
>> have the worktop or the vise.   I'll have to look at good quality rolling
>> toolboxes - that was my original plan, before I had a million other details
>> to deal with.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:24 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On quick look it appears that this is a very similar kit to the granger
>>> kit with less Cruft for much cheaper.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.zoro.com/mobile-shop-facility-maintenance-tool-set-tool-cart-ms-cec-pro/i/G8538625/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuuT8gdKB6wIVRNbACh1_zQ4LEAQYAyABEgK15PD_BwE
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>> Pat
>>>
>>>
>>> Pat Horne
>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> In case you wonder what's in it:
>>>
>>> https://www.mobile-shop.com/downloads/pm-cart-tools-and-parts.pdf
>>>
>>> Seems to be a little light on large wrenches.
>>>
>>>
>>> And then there's this:
>>>
>>> https://www.mobile-shop.com/golf-cart-utility
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider
>>>>> any special tools will be furnished with construction).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful
>>>> suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources
>>>> (GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually
>>>> manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically
>>>> for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one
>>>> purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It
>>>> looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my
>>>> own if I felt it was an advantage.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have any experience with these?
>>>>
>>>> -- Jeff
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>>>
>>>
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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 08:31:25 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:31:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool of the day
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgad9edsePvWyvGBjxbyHT35pbFi=GAxFLfcLZsjDMFQ-A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

I  bought a pair of these this winter primarily for use with cars, but I
really like the Zendex RakJak two bag air jack for use on the bikes as well.

In the attached link to a photo where I am removing and reinstalling the
rear wheel for my Sportster tire change, sliding the axle in through the
swing arm, the disk brake, the belt adjusters, etc., always is a little
tricky getting everything lined up height-wise while pushing the axle
through.

With the air jack, you can push the up/down buttons with one finger, raise
or lower the lift by small fractions of an inch, and eyeball the axle
alignment with the various components. The precision, smoothness, and
controllability of the lifting is pretty amazing:
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=446D39C8B1E43758&id=446D39C8B1E43758%21166810&parId=446D39C8B1E43758%21166807&o=OneUp


https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=446D39C8B1E43758&id=446D39C8B1E43758%21166817&parId=446D39C8B1E43758%21166807&o=OneUp


They are US-made, support 2 tons each, very well built, very fast lifting,
good enough for professional shop use, all parts are replaceable, but they
are pricey.

If you were going to use it on trucks/vans/SUVs, I would recommend the
three bag model as it would give you more lift. The three bag model
probably would not fit under most sporty cars.

Definitely not a necessity (sort of like changing tires on the floor versus
the tire changer), but it makes jobs much easier with one man doing it, and
is much faster.

Downsides other than being pricey, they are a little wide and a little
heavy, and do not have the lifting range that a trolley floor jack would
have.

I mostly got them to do car wheel removals when the car is on the lift
(cannot use a floor jack), but have been using them instead of the floor
jack even on the floor because they are so fast and easy.

Clearly not a necessity, maybe an indulgent luxury, but my tool of the day.

Here is a video link from the manufacturer:

https://shop.zendextool.com/RakJak%E2%84%A2-Air-Bag-Jack_c_23.html

best,

doug
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From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Tue Aug  4 15:44:04 2020
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:44:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] toilet parts
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgZbFcoBOihAfJKV18WSEn63298Gn61h-X=ayaOAuU3g8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB36708D63D2368C8928C427E6B44D0@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <32c340ea-5658-f59d-82ed-0131fb674e95@earthlink.net>
 <CAG1pxgZbFcoBOihAfJKV18WSEn63298Gn61h-X=ayaOAuU3g8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A402B2CF78E46F1A49FB32B067EBB5D@DESKTOPAF4HOLU>

I?ve been using https://www.plumbingsupply.com/
Good service, good tracking of shipment, correct parts
I was buying new shower/bath valves
They have a huge listing of old toilet parts ? maybe that will help.

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency ?104? ? long term restoration project that will get kick-started after my son goes back to his residential home (he?s home because we weren?t going to be able to visit him at the home during this wonderful time )


From: old dirtbeard 
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 8:55 PM
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] toilet parts

Regarding old/odd toilet parts in particular, I would suggest taking the old parts down to the local hardware store and have them match-up the replacement parts. 

Otherwise one could end up with a great personal inventory of similar parts that will not work and will never be used (been there and I hate doing that).  :-)

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:16 PM Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

  I second the idea of a local hardware store like Ace or a plumbing supply house.  Many of the guts of a toilet can also be replaced with universal parts, so it may be worth taking the bad part and seeing if they have a match.  I've been helped a few times buy the small local stores.

  If you are looking at a big bill for an old toilet, it might be better going for a more modern water saving replacement, especially if you have expensive water.  Some are actually pretty decent now.

  Brian


  On 8/3/2020 2:47 PM, Tim . wrote:

    Hey all, 

    Who do you for toilet parts? My standby for what not was always RepairClinic.com but they don't do toilets. 

    thanks
    tim

     
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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  _______________________________________________

  Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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  Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 17:45:50 2020
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:45:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Facility Tool List
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CO=tUCSc4h1qojdupSwx3LuU-gKz09TiEd6tXLBz7AzTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7COr7XS9F+eren0+2M-oD2sjiBUOuTiLakbAy67E6TKkxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A0309E14-FBD9-4739-ACA4-BC6FEDB5878C@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COMVUbyTAjssasr_t6m9sGespyy+ntey-ueWBximJUdJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7CORBfwU21+7jhgpHL5CKzPmX3S0Y8ydrjJAZcD+NKLZkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7CO=tUCSc4h1qojdupSwx3LuU-gKz09TiEd6tXLBz7AzTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62DBC3E7-03BB-4CC6-B429-8AFC3450F1F2@gmail.com>



> On Aug 4, 2020, at 08:59, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If I use a browser that I haven't used to log into Grainger, the price jumps to $4,480.00
> 
> 

Grainger have discounts based on volume. The more you spend, the better the prices. Zoro price are small volume discount.  Better than you will get as an individual, but much worse than GSA could negioate. 


> 
>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:54 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's weird.  
>> 
>> Zoro:   
>> Zoro #: G8538625
>>  
>> Mfr #: MS-CEC-PRO
>> $3,662.57  
>> 
>> 
>> Grainger:   
>> Item # 6ETU9 Mfr. Model # MS-CEC-PRO 
>> Your Price 
>> 
>> $1,824.67 / each  
>> 
>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:49 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yep.  Same maker, different contents.  It's a smaller cart that doesn't have the worktop or the vise.   I'll have to look at good quality rolling toolboxes - that was my original plan, before I had a million other details to deal with.
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:24 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>> On quick look it appears that this is a very similar kit to the granger kit with less Cruft for much cheaper. 
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.zoro.com/mobile-shop-facility-maintenance-tool-set-tool-cart-ms-cec-pro/i/G8538625/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuuT8gdKB6wIVRNbACh1_zQ4LEAQYAyABEgK15PD_BwE
>>>> 
>>>> Peace,
>>>> Pat
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Pat Horne 
>>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ?
>>>> In case you wonder what's in it:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.mobile-shop.com/downloads/pm-cart-tools-and-parts.pdf  
>>>> 
>>>> Seems to be a little light on large wrenches.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And then there's this:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.mobile-shop.com/golf-cart-utility  
>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In 25 words or less, what should be on the purchase order?  (Consider any special tools will be furnished with construction). 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for all the answers so far - I've received some very helpful suggestions. Since I work for the Government, I have required sources (GSA)...for this sort of thing there's some variety, and usually manufacturer names are mentioned.  In the process of searching generically for "maintenance tool set", I found this item:
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBILE-SHOP-1141pc-Preventative-Maintenance-4HFZ3 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This looks like a good way to solve about 65% of my problem with one purchase.  But I'm not sure about the quality of anything included.  It looks very handy, and I can replace cheap tools, but I could also build my own if I felt it was an advantage. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anyone have any experience with these?
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- Jeff
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>> 
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>>>> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
> 
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From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 14:06:05 2020
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:06:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
Message-ID: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>

Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.

Replaced the carb and plug.

No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
application of throttle.

That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are
brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing.
The carb isn't the problem.

I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just
toss it?

Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.

Scott
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 14:23:32 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:23:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>

Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Scott Hall
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again

 

Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.

 

Replaced the carb and plug.

 

No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on application of throttle.

 

That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing. The carb isn't the problem.

 

I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just toss it?

 

Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.

 

Scott

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From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 15:09:02 2020
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:09:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>

The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it pumps using
the primer bulb.

The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see the end
of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be that the new
fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of the fuel line) could
be restrictive. Working against that theory is that it did the same thing
with the old fuel filter.

I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem is...what's left?
I swapped the spark plug just to do it.

It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and exhaust
valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition has been
developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are slowly coming out
of adjustment?

I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't think of
what else it could be.

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try
> starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
>
>
>
> ----------------
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Al Fuller
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Scott
> Hall
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
> *To:* Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
>
>
>
> Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
>
>
>
> Replaced the carb and plug.
>
>
>
> No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
> application of throttle.
>
>
>
> That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are
> brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing.
> The carb isn't the problem.
>
>
>
> I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just
> toss it?
>
>
>
> Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
>
>
>
> Scott
>
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From marka at maracing.com  Wed Aug  5 15:26:26 2020
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:26:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGO9E3CncV22UTv4VbXBKeg7b5hvxz_RNpPPAAenSCLBcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

You mentioned that the choke didn't seem to do anything... Is there
something broken in that setup, so that it's messing up the air supply?

Mark

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:09 PM Scott Hall <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it pumps
> using the primer bulb.
>
> The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see the end
> of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be that the new
> fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of the fuel line) could
> be restrictive. Working against that theory is that it did the same thing
> with the old fuel filter.
>
> I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem is...what's
> left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it.
>
> It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and exhaust
> valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition has been
> developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are slowly coming out
> of adjustment?
>
> I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't think of
> what else it could be.
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try
>> starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Al Fuller
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Scott
>> Hall
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
>> *To:* Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
>>
>>
>>
>> Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
>>
>>
>>
>> Replaced the carb and plug.
>>
>>
>>
>> No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
>> application of throttle.
>>
>>
>>
>> That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are
>> brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing.
>> The carb isn't the problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just
>> toss it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>
>
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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Aug  5 15:29:11 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:29:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <72F69660-F88D-40B6-9B2D-3EDCFEEF0DFF@groupwbench.org>

If the valves have tighened up, which is normal as things wear, they won't be sealing and you won't have enough compression to light off the charge, or when it does light off it's leaking out instead of making power. Is there an adjustment available on this engine? I don't know tiiny 4 strokes at all. I would think they'd build it with more clearance than woul devery be used up by wesr. Can you do a compression test on the cylinder? Leakdown test? Does it feel easier to start (assuming a pull start) than when it was new? A leaky valve would make it feel easier - the more leaky the easier it would be.

You checked the spark plug wire for cracks? Can you try it in the dark and see if the spark leaks out of the wire anywhere?

jim

> On Aug 5, 2020, at 5:09 PM, Scott Hall <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it pumps using the primer bulb. 
> 
> The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see the end of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be that the new fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of the fuel line) could be restrictive. Working against that theory is that it did the same thing with the old fuel filter. 
> 
> I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem is...what's left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it. 
> 
> It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and exhaust valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition has been developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are slowly coming out of adjustment?
> 
> I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't think of what else it could be.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
> 
>  
> 
> ----------------
> 
> All the best,
> 
>  
> 
> Al Fuller
> 
>  
> 
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Scott Hall
> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
> 
>  
> 
> Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
> 
>  
> 
> Replaced the carb and plug.
> 
>  
> 
> No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on application of throttle.
> 
>  
> 
> That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing. The carb isn't the problem.
> 
>  
> 
> I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just toss it?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
> 
>  
> 
> Scott
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org
> 

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From marlinswimmer at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 15:32:40 2020
From: marlinswimmer at gmail.com (Phillip Farmer)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:32:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGO9E3CncV22UTv4VbXBKeg7b5hvxz_RNpPPAAenSCLBcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAoSWGO9E3CncV22UTv4VbXBKeg7b5hvxz_RNpPPAAenSCLBcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANqVj8oG5kROsVRuZAMrhjqCo_d1SG670_4VZr5j5Yk_SuksNg@mail.gmail.com>

Check that the exhaust (little screen filter) is not plugged up with
exhaust crud.  Can cause those symptoms.

P. Farmer
870-723-3320


On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:26 PM Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> You mentioned that the choke didn't seem to do anything... Is there
> something broken in that setup, so that it's messing up the air supply?
>
> Mark
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:09 PM Scott Hall <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it pumps
>> using the primer bulb.
>>
>> The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see the end
>> of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be that the new
>> fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of the fuel line) could
>> be restrictive. Working against that theory is that it did the same thing
>> with the old fuel filter.
>>
>> I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem is...what's
>> left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it.
>>
>> It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and exhaust
>> valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition has been
>> developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are slowly coming out
>> of adjustment?
>>
>> I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't think of
>> what else it could be.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try
>>> starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Al Fuller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Scott
>>> Hall
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
>>> *To:* Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Replaced the carb and plug.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
>>> application of throttle.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are
>>> brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing.
>>> The carb isn't the problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just
>>> toss it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marlinswimmer at gmail.com
>
>
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 16:00:32 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:00:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <72F69660-F88D-40B6-9B2D-3EDCFEEF0DFF@groupwbench.org>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <72F69660-F88D-40B6-9B2D-3EDCFEEF0DFF@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <020d01d66b73$d73eb370$85bc1a50$@gmail.com>

There is a manual for a Troy-Built 4-stroke backpack leaf blower here:
https://www.leafblowersdirect.com/manuals/TB4BPEC_manual.pdf

 

Around page 13 they detail idle speed adjustment, rocker clearance, etc..
Don't know if it your model, but might be a good place to start.

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Franklin
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 5:29 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again

 

If the valves have tighened up, which is normal as things wear, they won't
be sealing and you won't have enough compression to light off the charge, or
when it does light off it's leaking out instead of making power. Is there an
adjustment available on this engine? I don't know tiiny 4 strokes at all. I
would think they'd build it with more clearance than woul devery be used up
by wesr. Can you do a compression test on the cylinder? Leakdown test? Does
it feel easier to start (assuming a pull start) than when it was new? A
leaky valve would make it feel easier - the more leaky the easier it would
be.

 

You checked the spark plug wire for cracks? Can you try it in the dark and
see if the spark leaks out of the wire anywhere?

 

jim





On Aug 5, 2020, at 5:09 PM, Scott Hall <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
<mailto:scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it pumps using
the primer bulb. 

 

The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see the end of
the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be that the new fuel
filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of the fuel line) could be
restrictive. Working against that theory is that it did the same thing with
the old fuel filter. 

 

I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem is...what's left?
I swapped the spark plug just to do it. 

 

It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and exhaust
valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition has been
developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are slowly coming out
of adjustment?

 

I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't think of what
else it could be.

 

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com
<mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try
starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
<mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> > On Behalf Of Scott Hall
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again

 

Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.

 

Replaced the carb and plug.

 

No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on application
of throttle.

 

That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are
brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing.
The carb isn't the problem.

 

I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just
toss it?

 

Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.

 

Scott

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org

 

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From eric at megageek.com  Thu Aug  6 06:27:48 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 08:27:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
Message-ID: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>

OK, so I'm having a problem finding the wheel studs I need.

It's a 7/16th X 20TPI lug bolt with a beveled edge (like all wheel bolts.)

They need to be 7/8th long (thread and beveled part) 

But I can't find any site that that can get me the results I'm looking 
for.  Is there a fasner site that you can find these on?  I've tried 
everything so far.

Boltdepot just gives me hex head.

Summit racing just gives my close metric bolts.

I can't find them anywhere

Can anyone point me in the right direction?


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Thu Aug  6 06:37:40 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 07:37:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <C8EE30E4-9B2B-4F3E-A5DC-25811034F8FE@icloud.com>

What do they fit? Have you tried the dealer?

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 6, 2020, at 7:28 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

?OK, so I'm having a problem finding the wheel studs I need.

It's a 7/16th X 20TPI lug bolt with a beveled edge (like all wheel bolts.) 

They need to be 7/8th long (thread and beveled part)   

But I can't find any site that that can get me the results I'm looking for.  Is there a fasner site that you can find these on?  I've tried everything so far. 

Boltdepot just gives me hex head. 

Summit racing just gives my close metric bolts. 

I can't find them anywhere 

Can anyone point me in the right direction? 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com

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From mark at bradakis.com  Thu Aug  6 07:48:48 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 07:48:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <b01ff1f6-00bb-8e81-2694-b1534d7fe87a@bradakis.com>

Have you checked here?

https://www.dormanproducts.com/pages/products/wheel-hardware/index.aspx?origin=homebanner

mjb.



From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  6 08:00:18 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:00:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <004a01d66bf9$ebb9f630$c32de290$@gmail.com>

This reminds me, I need wheel nuts for my Austin-Healey.  You might try: 

 

Fastenal: https://www.fastenal.com/

 

Fastenal "wheel nuts"
https://www.fastenal.com/product/fasteners/automotive-fasteners/nuts/604796?
categoryId=604796
<https://www.fastenal.com/product/fasteners/automotive-fasteners/nuts/604796
?categoryId=604796&level=3&query=lug%2Bnut&isExpanded=true&productFamilyId=2
3025> &level=3&query=lug%2Bnut&isExpanded=true&productFamilyId=23025

 

Fastener Mart: https://www.fastenermart.com/

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of
eric at megageek.com
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 8:28 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs

 

OK, so I'm having a problem finding the wheel studs I need. 

It's a 7/16th X 20TPI lug bolt with a beveled edge (like all wheel bolts.) 

They need to be 7/8th long (thread and beveled part)   

But I can't find any site that that can get me the results I'm looking for.
Is there a fasner site that you can find these on?  I've tried everything so
far. 

Boltdepot just gives me hex head. 

Summit racing just gives my close metric bolts. 

I can't find them anywhere 

Can anyone point me in the right direction? 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo
Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?

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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  6 08:03:18 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:03:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>

Oh - what about NAPA:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?q=Nty%3D1%26N%3D2500003%2B2600315%2B280
0005%26Score%3D0.9
<https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?q=Nty%3D1%26N%3D2500003%2B2600315%2B28
00005%26Score%3D0.9&referer=plp&partTypeName=Wheel%20Bolt%20Nut&keywordInput
=lug%20nut&scene=partTypesScene3&fullyQualified=false>
&referer=plp&partTypeName=Wheel%20Bolt%20Nut&keywordInput=lug%20nut&scene=pa
rtTypesScene3&fullyQualified=false

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of
eric at megageek.com
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 8:28 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs

 

OK, so I'm having a problem finding the wheel studs I need. 

It's a 7/16th X 20TPI lug bolt with a beveled edge (like all wheel bolts.) 

They need to be 7/8th long (thread and beveled part)   

But I can't find any site that that can get me the results I'm looking for.
Is there a fasner site that you can find these on?  I've tried everything so
far. 

Boltdepot just gives me hex head. 

Summit racing just gives my close metric bolts. 

I can't find them anywhere 

Can anyone point me in the right direction? 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo
Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?

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From eric at megageek.com  Thu Aug  6 08:13:56 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:13:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
 <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFFFD04E54.42934A64-ON852585BC.004DEA53-852585BC.004E2FCA@mail.megageek.com>

I want to thank all of you here for the suggestions, but I'm still not 
finding it.

Here is the closest I can come...
https://www.pureoffroad.com/lug3k-lug-bolts.htm 

But I think that the slope is too shallow.

This one on Napa (Thanks Al) seems to be it, but it doesn't tell me 
anything about the size... (thread pitch/length/etc) 

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NDP6412188?partTypeName=Wheel+Bolt+-+Front&keywordInput=lug+bolt 


This is off a 1978 Hustler 275 Zero turn mower.  I can't find a local 
Hustler dealer.

Thanks again for any help.
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From jniolon at att.net  Thu Aug  6 08:13:55 2020
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:13:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel studs
References: <1UWEWCtj8Q.2MU1uta3QDr.ref@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1UWEWCtj8Q.2MU1uta3QDr@johns-desktop>

Eric,

your best bet is finding an old, old, parts store with the steel drawer units 
that are Orange... heavy duty units that hold wheel studs, head studs, exhaust 
bolts, etc...  lots of nos stuff in them... Parts chimps at the chains ain't gonna have them and I doubt that fastener stores will either...  do they screw into the hub OR are they pressed in from behind..??
john
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Aug  6 08:25:45 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 07:25:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
 <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fcc94d17-fcd8-a887-d6c1-2a7112d4a72a@comcast.net>

Yep. I needed 9/16-18 wheel bolts for an agricultural scraper; checked 
both a tire/wheel shop and a bolt store, who pointed me to Napa. They 
had them.

On 8/6/2020 7:03 AM, alfuller194 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Oh ? what about NAPA: 
> https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?q=Nty%3D1%26N%3D2500003%2B2600315%2B2800005%26Score%3D0.9&referer=plp&partTypeName=Wheel%20Bolt%20Nut&keywordInput=lug%20nut&scene=partTypesScene3&fullyQualified=false
>
> ----------------
>
> All the best,
>
> Al Fuller
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of 
> *eric at megageek.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 6, 2020 8:28 AM
> *To:* Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
>
> OK, so I'm having a problem finding the wheel studs I need.
>
> It's a 7/16th X 20TPI lug bolt with a beveled edge (like all wheel 
> bolts.)
>
> They need to be 7/8th long (thread and beveled part)
>
> But I can't find any site that that can get me the results I'm looking 
> for. ?Is there a fasner site that you can find these on? ?I've tried 
> everything so far.
>
> Boltdepot just gives me hex head.
>
> Summit racing just gives my close metric bolts.
>
> I can't find them anywhere
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a 
> rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your 
> territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>

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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Thu Aug  6 08:29:22 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 07:29:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <fcc94d17-fcd8-a887-d6c1-2a7112d4a72a@comcast.net>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
 <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>
 <fcc94d17-fcd8-a887-d6c1-2a7112d4a72a@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgY_x5n4--Kk+a4i1KBbMXbeuh2i5S1zLoVxY+D+a27LiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Always my goto for bolts:

https://www.mcmaster.com/bolts

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 7:26 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Yep. I needed 9/16-18 wheel bolts for an agricultural scraper; checked
> both a tire/wheel shop and a bolt store, who pointed me to Napa. They had
> them.
>
> On 8/6/2020 7:03 AM, alfuller194 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Oh ? what about NAPA:
> https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?q=Nty%3D1%26N%3D2500003%2B2600315%2B2800005%26Score%3D0.9&referer=plp&partTypeName=Wheel%20Bolt%20Nut&keywordInput=lug%20nut&scene=partTypesScene3&fullyQualified=false
>
>
>
> ----------------
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Al Fuller
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>
> <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *eric at megageek.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 6, 2020 8:28 AM
> *To:* Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
>
>
>
> OK, so I'm having a problem finding the wheel studs I need.
>
> It's a 7/16th X 20TPI lug bolt with a beveled edge (like all wheel bolts.)
>
> They need to be 7/8th long (thread and beveled part)
>
> But I can't find any site that that can get me the results I'm looking
> for.  Is there a fasner site that you can find these on?  I've tried
> everything so far.
>
> Boltdepot just gives me hex head.
>
> Summit racing just gives my close metric bolts.
>
> I can't find them anywhere
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From maynerdfamily at msn.com  Thu Aug  6 08:34:51 2020
From: maynerdfamily at msn.com (Brian and Wendy Warrick)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:34:51 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgY_x5n4--Kk+a4i1KBbMXbeuh2i5S1zLoVxY+D+a27LiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
 <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>
 <fcc94d17-fcd8-a887-d6c1-2a7112d4a72a@comcast.net>,
 <CAG1pxgY_x5n4--Kk+a4i1KBbMXbeuh2i5S1zLoVxY+D+a27LiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MW2PR07MB3978DAECC9F7E5D10CECE365BB480@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

I did a google search for 7/16x20 lug bolt and found these

https://www.pureoffroad.com/lug3k-lug-bolts.htm

[https://www.pureoffroad.com/assets/images/lug3k-website.jpg]<https://www.pureoffroad.com/lug3k-lug-bolts.htm>
7/16-20 Lug Bolts for Kubota and John Deere UTV<https://www.pureoffroad.com/lug3k-lug-bolts.htm>
7/16 x 20 Tapered Lug Bolts. NOTE: If you purchase ATV or UTV rims from us, we automatically include the proper lug nuts/bolts free of charge. It is not necessary to purchase these unless you need extras or if you are replacing some that have been lost.
www.pureoffroad.com

Brian
Nampa, ID
________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 8:29 AM
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs

Always my goto for bolts:

https://www.mcmaster.com/bolts

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 7:26 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
Yep. I needed 9/16-18 wheel bolts for an agricultural scraper; checked both a tire/wheel shop and a bolt store, who pointed me to Napa. They had them.

On 8/6/2020 7:03 AM, alfuller194 at gmail.com<mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:

Oh ? what about NAPA: https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?q=Nty%3D1%26N%3D2500003%2B2600315%2B2800005%26Score%3D0.9&referer=plp&partTypeName=Wheel%20Bolt%20Nut&keywordInput=lug%20nut&scene=partTypesScene3&fullyQualified=false



----------------

All the best,



Al Fuller



From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net><mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com<mailto:eric at megageek.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 8:28 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs



OK, so I'm having a problem finding the wheel studs I need.

It's a 7/16th X 20TPI lug bolt with a beveled edge (like all wheel bolts.)

They need to be 7/8th long (thread and beveled part)

But I can't find any site that that can get me the results I'm looking for.  Is there a fasner site that you can find these on?  I've tried everything so far.

Boltdepot just gives me hex head.

Summit racing just gives my close metric bolts.

I can't find them anywhere

Can anyone point me in the right direction?


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
-Who is John Galt?



_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net



_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From dave1massey at cs.com  Thu Aug  6 10:10:47 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:10:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <OFFFD04E54.42934A64-ON852585BC.004DEA53-852585BC.004E2FCA@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF5402AC58.2E1442E6-ON852585BC.0042FF1C-852585BC.00447823@mail.megageek.com>
 <005101d66bfa$56a72940$03f57bc0$@gmail.com>
 <OFFFD04E54.42934A64-ON852585BC.004DEA53-852585BC.004E2FCA@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1363562013.648929.1596730247267@mail.yahoo.com>

 Here's another site:
https://www.gorilla-auto.com/lug-nuts
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Thu, Aug 6, 2020 9:13 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Trouble ordering bolts/studs

I want to thank all of you here for thesuggestions, but I'm still not finding it.

Here is the closest I can come...
https://www.pureoffroad.com/lug3k-lug-bolts.htm

But I think that the slope is too shallow.

This one on Napa (Thanks Al) seems tobe it, but it doesn't tell me anything about the size... (thread pitch/length/etc)

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NDP6412188?partTypeName=Wheel+Bolt+-+Front&keywordInput=lug+bolt

This is off a 1978 Hustler 275 Zero turn mower. ?Ican't find a local Hustler dealer.

Thanks again for any help._______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com

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From ed.reiss at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  6 11:48:26 2020
From: ed.reiss at hotmail.com (Ed Reiss)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 17:48:26 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Subject:  Trouble ordering bolts/studs
Message-ID: <SN2PR0801MB22865636FDBC6EF6428EA4E69E480@SN2PR0801MB2286.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Eric

Check this one out
ttps://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/part/sgc/6422002?gclid=eaiaiqobchmi5-jez4-h6wivedbach1mxgdweaqyayabegiuipd_bwe

[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png]<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>     Virus-free. www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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From eric at megageek.com  Thu Aug  6 13:04:23 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:04:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Subject:  Trouble ordering bolts/studs
In-Reply-To: <SN2PR0801MB22865636FDBC6EF6428EA4E69E480@SN2PR0801MB2286.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN2PR0801MB22865636FDBC6EF6428EA4E69E480@SN2PR0801MB2286.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <OF0B281E4E.26CC090B-ON852585BC.0068A2D8-852585BC.0068C6FD@mail.megageek.com>

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!

Thanks Ed.

You know, this is one of the first sites I found in my searches, but I 
didn't find this bolt.

Thanks again!

(Wow, they are making money on these, eh?)


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?



From:   Ed Reiss <ed.reiss at hotmail.com>
To:     "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date:   08/06/2020 13:48
Subject:        [Shop-talk] Subject:  Trouble ordering bolts/studs
Sent by:        "Shop-talk" <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>



Eric

Check this one out
ttps://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/part/sgc/6422002?gclid=eaiaiqobchmi5-jez4-h6wivedbach1mxgdweaqyayabegiuipd_bwe


Virus-free. www.avg.com 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Thu Aug  6 18:40:05 2020
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:40:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <085800CD-1957-4034-A1A9-61475A6343C6@icloud.com>

I had a leaf blower stop running a few years back due to a bad ignition coil. Have you verified you?ve got spark? I don?t see that specifically mentioned (yes, you did mention the spark plug)

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 05 Aug 2020, at 5:09 PM, Scott Hall <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it pumps using the primer bulb. 
> 
> The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see the end of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be that the new fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of the fuel line) could be restrictive. Working against that theory is that it did the same thing with the old fuel filter. 
> 
> I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem is...what's left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it. 
> 
> It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and exhaust valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition has been developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are slowly coming out of adjustment?
> 
> I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't think of what else it could be.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
> 
>  
> 
> ----------------
> 
> All the best,
> 
>  
> 
> Al Fuller
> 
>  
> 
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Scott Hall
> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
> 
>  
> 
> Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
> 
>  
> 
> Replaced the carb and plug.
> 
>  
> 
> No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on application of throttle.
> 
>  
> 
> That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing. The carb isn't the problem.
> 
>  
> 
> I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just toss it?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
> 
>  
> 
> Scott
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From darrellw360 at mac.com  Fri Aug  7 15:21:45 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:21:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
Message-ID: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>


I?m in the market for a compressor.  I?m looking for about 10 CFM at 90 psi.

I actually have an Eastwood scroll compressor on backorder, but I?m getting anxious, and thinking about other things to spend the price difference on.  I do like that the scroll compressor is very quiet, though.

I?ve looked at four possibilities, all much cheaper than the Eastwood:

	Husky 60 gallon (from Home Depot)
	Kobalt 60 gallon (from Lowes)
	Puma PK-6060 (from Amazon)
	Campbell Hausfeld VT6195 (from Grizzly)

The Husky and Kobalt are very close in price, the Puma and CH are a bit more.

The Kobalt is dual-stage, the rest are single stage (but dual cylinder), but all meet my expected air requirements.

I believe the Kobalt is made by CH, though it is not the same as the CH model I?m looking at.

Any experience or comments on any of these choices?  Anything else I ought to look at in a similar range?

Thanks,
Darrell

-- 
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA


From darrellw360 at mac.com  Fri Aug  7 15:39:24 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:39:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
Message-ID: <F206DE03-DEB3-4B85-AC2A-658035A2F319@mac.com>


One more option I?ve added to the list:

Ingersoll Rand SS5L5 (from Northern Tool)

This is a 5 HP unit, and a little more expensive than the other options.  I don?t think I need that much compressor, but if it might be more reliable, certainly worth considering.

-Darrell

> On Aug 7, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I?m in the market for a compressor.  I?m looking for about 10 CFM at 90 psi.
> 
> I actually have an Eastwood scroll compressor on backorder, but I?m getting anxious, and thinking about other things to spend the price difference on.  I do like that the scroll compressor is very quiet, though.
> 
> I?ve looked at four possibilities, all much cheaper than the Eastwood:
> 
> 	Husky 60 gallon (from Home Depot)
> 	Kobalt 60 gallon (from Lowes)
> 	Puma PK-6060 (from Amazon)
> 	Campbell Hausfeld VT6195 (from Grizzly)
> 
> The Husky and Kobalt are very close in price, the Puma and CH are a bit more.
> 
> The Kobalt is dual-stage, the rest are single stage (but dual cylinder), but all meet my expected air requirements.
> 
> I believe the Kobalt is made by CH, though it is not the same as the CH model I?m looking at.
> 
> Any experience or comments on any of these choices?  Anything else I ought to look at in a similar range?
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell
> 
> -- 
> Darrell Walker
> 66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
> 81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
> Vancouver, WA, USA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
> 


From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Fri Aug  7 15:55:49 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:55:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a CH VT6195 that is now 25 years old, runs and looks like new. Still
has the original belt after hundreds of hours of use.

The only repair I have had to make is the limit switch replacement about
5 years ago.
[image: IMG_20200807_144252.jpg]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:22 PM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:

>
> I?m in the market for a compressor.  I?m looking for about 10 CFM at 90
> psi.
>
> I actually have an Eastwood scroll compressor on backorder, but I?m
> getting anxious, and thinking about other things to spend the price
> difference on.  I do like that the scroll compressor is very quiet, though.
>
> I?ve looked at four possibilities, all much cheaper than the Eastwood:
>
>         Husky 60 gallon (from Home Depot)
>         Kobalt 60 gallon (from Lowes)
>         Puma PK-6060 (from Amazon)
>         Campbell Hausfeld VT6195 (from Grizzly)
>
> The Husky and Kobalt are very close in price, the Puma and CH are a bit
> more.
>
> The Kobalt is dual-stage, the rest are single stage (but dual cylinder),
> but all meet my expected air requirements.
>
> I believe the Kobalt is made by CH, though it is not the same as the CH
> model I?m looking at.
>
> Any experience or comments on any of these choices?  Anything else I ought
> to look at in a similar range?
>
> Thanks,
> Darrell
>
> --
> Darrell Walker
> 66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
> 81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
> Vancouver, WA, USA
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Fri Aug  7 16:19:57 2020
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 22:19:57 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR0401MB3670700C1D48E166D4D79A99B4490@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

I have an 80 gallon Porter Cable single stage that is 12 years old. It is fine for small jobs and tools but runs constantly when I use my blast cabinet or any sort of tool that runs a lot like a sander, polisher, die grinder etc. It is also pretty loud but I've had no problems with it other the how hot it gets. (I really need to move my blast cabinet away from the tank!)

I don't know what a "scroll compressor" is but assume it's better than my single stage.

Buy a two stage if you can afford it (unless the scroll type does the same thing).

tim

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com>
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 4:21 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


I?m in the market for a compressor.  I?m looking for about 10 CFM at 90 psi.

I actually have an Eastwood scroll compressor on backorder, but I?m getting anxious, and thinking about other things to spend the price difference on.  I do like that the scroll compressor is very quiet, though.

I?ve looked at four possibilities, all much cheaper than the Eastwood:

        Husky 60 gallon (from Home Depot)
        Kobalt 60 gallon (from Lowes)
        Puma PK-6060 (from Amazon)
        Campbell Hausfeld VT6195 (from Grizzly)

The Husky and Kobalt are very close in price, the Puma and CH are a bit more.

The Kobalt is dual-stage, the rest are single stage (but dual cylinder), but all meet my expected air requirements.

I believe the Kobalt is made by CH, though it is not the same as the CH model I?m looking at.

Any experience or comments on any of these choices?  Anything else I ought to look at in a similar range?

Thanks,
Darrell

--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From gsteve at hammatt.com  Fri Aug  7 16:25:09 2020
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:25:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>

I have a very similar looking machine, also about 25 years old.
My wife said she wanted to take me shopping for a birthday present.
This is highly unusual.  Apparently she a noticed that I?d been 
research compressors.  Anyway I led the way to the local 
Grainger Store.  (I already knew what one I wanted).  We walked 
in the door and I steered her over to the display model and mentioned 
that ?this was the one?.  She was shocked.....she had no idea of what 
to expect, in fact she said ?I thought it was something about the size 
of a bread box?.  Anyway, it?s been trouble free, and just getting hooked 
up again at the new house.
Also, the one we purchased was the prior year?s model but I wanted it 
because it was the last one of that size (two pistons, 50 (60?) gallon) 
with a CAST IRON compressor.  

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
www.leatherplates.com



From: old dirtbeard 
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 2:55 PM
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
I have a CH VT6195 that is now 25 years old, runs and looks like new. Still has the original belt after hundreds of hours of use.  

The only repair I have had to make is the limit switch replacement about 5 years ago. 



On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:22 PM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:


  I?m in the market for a compressor.  I?m looking for about 10 CFM at 90 psi.

  I actually have an Eastwood scroll compressor on backorder, but I?m getting anxious, and thinking about other things to spend the price difference on.  I do like that the scroll compressor is very quiet, though.

  I?ve looked at four possibilities, all much cheaper than the Eastwood:

          Husky 60 gallon (from Home Depot)
          Kobalt 60 gallon (from Lowes)
          Puma PK-6060 (from Amazon)
          Campbell Hausfeld VT6195 (from Grizzly)

  The Husky and Kobalt are very close in price, the Puma and CH are a bit more.

  The Kobalt is dual-stage, the rest are single stage (but dual cylinder), but all meet my expected air requirements.

  I believe the Kobalt is made by CH, though it is not the same as the CH model I?m looking at.

  Any experience or comments on any of these choices?  Anything else I ought to look at in a similar range?

  Thanks,
  Darrell

  -- 
  Darrell Walker
  66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
  81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
  Vancouver, WA, USA

  _______________________________________________

  Shop-talk at autox.team.net
  Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
  Suggested annual donation  $12.96
  Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

  Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________

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From JIBrooks at live.com  Fri Aug  7 22:24:41 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 04:24:41 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB3151AC3DB810D25E4C887403A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The busbars are already bent to shape, but I'd like to anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the  "Half-Hard" state and making them "Dead-Soft" will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble the system.

I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can't get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don't have one.  MAPP gas is hotter, but I don't think it's a lot hotter.

I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.

I'd prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs (cylinders) of my '74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper bars should be fine as they won't stink up the house.

Thanks in advance,

Jack
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Aug  8 06:36:56 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:36:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB3151AC3DB810D25E4C887403A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB3151AC3DB810D25E4C887403A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <58789C35-649C-4002-92F5-218359FD35E4@icloud.com>

Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Will that get hot enough?

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:

?
I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the  ?Half-Hard? state and making them ?Dead-Soft? will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble the system.
 
I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can?t get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have one.  MAPP gas is hotter, but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
 
I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.
 
I?d prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Jack
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 07:43:19 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 06:43:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <58789C35-649C-4002-92F5-218359FD35E4@icloud.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB3151AC3DB810D25E4C887403A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <58789C35-649C-4002-92F5-218359FD35E4@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgakax3smook6vRShkTGWrxuqMqcWFuw+Rog5cwypjpT4A@mail.gmail.com>

I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would be
very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven.

Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...  :-)

best,

doug

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:

> Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop,
> body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Will
> that get hot enough?
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an
> Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The
> busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to anneal them, because the
> copper was purchased in the  ?Half-Hard? state and making them ?Dead-Soft?
> will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when
> I final assemble the system.
>
>
>
> I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane
> torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can?t
> get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An
> Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have one.  MAPP gas is hotter,
> but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
>
>
>
> I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the
> self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to
> around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.
>
>
>
> I?d prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used our
> oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs (cylinders)
> of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper bars should
> be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
> Jack
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 08:18:02 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:18:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgakax3smook6vRShkTGWrxuqMqcWFuw+Rog5cwypjpT4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB3151AC3DB810D25E4C887403A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <58789C35-649C-4002-92F5-218359FD35E4@icloud.com>
 <CAG1pxgakax3smook6vRShkTGWrxuqMqcWFuw+Rog5cwypjpT4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2cf6dc8-0a20-1e17-16a6-99337e6f0970@comcast.net>

Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or 
oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'

Bob

On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would 
> be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven.
>
> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...? :-)
>
> best,
>
> doug
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com 
> <mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
>
>     Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler
>     shop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use
>     air/acetylene. Will that get hot enough?
>
>     Peace,
>     Pat
>
>     Pat Horne
>     We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
>     On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com
>     <mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
>
>     ?
>
>     I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16^th inch thick busbars
>     for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my
>     shop.? The busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to
>     anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the ??Half-Hard?
>     state and making them ?Dead-Soft? will insure that they lay
>     completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble
>     the system.
>
>     I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a
>     propane torch and then allow it to cool.? With the mass of these
>     busbars, I can?t get them up to a temperature to where they glow
>     with propane.? An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have
>     one.? MAPP gas is hotter, but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
>
>     I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the
>     self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up
>     to around 900?F.? Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should
>     be fine.
>
>     I?d prefer almost any other solution.? Thoughts?? The last time I
>     used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the
>     jugs (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.? Mrs. Jack was not
>     happy.? Copper bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
>
>     Thanks in advance,
>
>     Jack
>
>

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From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Aug  8 08:21:43 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 09:21:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <a2cf6dc8-0a20-1e17-16a6-99337e6f0970@comcast.net>
References: <a2cf6dc8-0a20-1e17-16a6-99337e6f0970@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <653C2007-C540-4AC6-960A-1BEB78CA827D@icloud.com>

I thought quenching made the metal less soft.

Annealing requires slow cooling. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'

Bob

On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven. 
> 
> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...  :-)
> 
> best,
> 
> doug
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>> Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Will that get hot enough?
>> 
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>> 
>> Pat Horne 
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the  ?Half-Hard? state and making them ?Dead-Soft? will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble the system.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can?t get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have one.  MAPP gas is hotter, but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I?d prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 08:33:16 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:33:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <653C2007-C540-4AC6-960A-1BEB78CA827D@icloud.com>
References: <a2cf6dc8-0a20-1e17-16a6-99337e6f0970@comcast.net>
 <653C2007-C540-4AC6-960A-1BEB78CA827D@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <86451f12-f5ca-d505-4aac-6f2e6e56e531@comcast.net>

Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, 
mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.

Thanks for the reply.
Bob


On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>
> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, 
> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 
> 'cherry red?'
>
> Bob
>


From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Aug  8 08:43:55 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 09:43:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <86451f12-f5ca-d505-4aac-6f2e6e56e531@comcast.net>
References: <86451f12-f5ca-d505-4aac-6f2e6e56e531@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <E4FA0B28-0EC4-4090-AED0-E7E1A3ABCB09@icloud.com>

Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.

Thanks for the reply.
Bob


> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> 
> Annealing requires slow cooling.
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
> 
> Bob
> 


From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 08:58:55 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:58:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <E4FA0B28-0EC4-4090-AED0-E7E1A3ABCB09@icloud.com>
References: <86451f12-f5ca-d505-4aac-6f2e6e56e531@comcast.net>
 <E4FA0B28-0EC4-4090-AED0-E7E1A3ABCB09@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <570f2fb9-1760-125b-ccde-63416f62894d@comcast.net>

Could be (the plot thickens):

"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to 
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and 
mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You 
can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame 
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way 
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and 
rapidly cooling it in water."

https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper



On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
> Bob
>
>
>> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>>
>> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
>>
>> Bob
>>


From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 09:02:10 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:02:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd:  Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <e4a19a40-3b35-e02f-d6d4-ce4a36deb3a1@comcast.net>
References: <e4a19a40-3b35-e02f-d6d4-ce4a36deb3a1@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2c9670bb-cea3-4d63-07e5-d8a93e356228@comcast.net>

[Oops; failed to copy shop-talk.]

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:57:35 -0400
From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net>
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>

Hardening steel requires quenching to freeze in the carbide crystal
structure. Annealing steel requires slow cooling.

Copper (and Aluminum and others, but I don't have a list handy) will
annealed by heating and can be cooled quickly or slowly. They harden
with strain (bending or hammering or whatever.)

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 10:18 a.m., Bob Spidell wrote:
> Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or
> oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
> 
> Bob
> 
> On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would
>> be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven.?
>>
>> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...? :-)
>>
>> best,
>>
>> doug
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com
>> <mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler
>>     shop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use
>>     air/acetylene. Will that get hot enough?
>>
>>     Peace,
>>     Pat
>>
>>     Pat Horne?
>>     We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>>     On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com
>>     <mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     ?
>>
>>     I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16^th inch thick busbars
>>     for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my
>>     shop.? The busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to
>>     anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the ??Half-Hard?
>>     state and making them ?Dead-Soft? will insure that they lay
>>     completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble
>>     the system.
>>
>>     ?
>>
>>     I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a
>>     propane torch and then allow it to cool.? With the mass of these
>>     busbars, I can?t get them up to a temperature to where they glow
>>     with propane.? An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have
>>     one.? MAPP gas is hotter, but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
>>
>>     ?
>>
>>     I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the
>>     self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up
>>     to around 900?F.? Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should
>>     be fine.
>>
>>     ?
>>
>>     I?d prefer almost any other solution.? Thoughts?? The last time I
>>     used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the
>>     jugs (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.? Mrs. Jack was not
>>     happy.? Copper bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
>>
>>     ?
>>
>>     Thanks in advance,
>>
>>     ?
>>
>>     Jack
>>
>>


From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 09:02:29 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:02:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <570f2fb9-1760-125b-ccde-63416f62894d@comcast.net>
References: <86451f12-f5ca-d505-4aac-6f2e6e56e531@comcast.net>
 <E4FA0B28-0EC4-4090-AED0-E7E1A3ABCB09@icloud.com>
 <570f2fb9-1760-125b-ccde-63416f62894d@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>

This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when
quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Could be (the plot thickens):
>
> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
> rapidly cooling it in water."
>
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
>
>
>
> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper,
> mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
> >
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >>
> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably,
> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry
> red?'
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Aug  8 09:21:22 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:21:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <808F7F83-A407-45E3-858E-CE13E366C262@icloud.com>

Learned something new today! Thanks for the feedback. I didn?t realize that copper doesn?t behave the same as steel!

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:

?
This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> Could be (the plot thickens):
> 
> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to 
> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and 
> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You 
> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame 
> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way 
> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and 
> rapidly cooling it in water."
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
> >
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >>
> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
> 


-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Aug  8 09:43:48 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:43:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>

So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN?T be a good choice. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:

?
This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> Could be (the plot thickens):
> 
> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to 
> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and 
> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You 
> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame 
> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way 
> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and 
> rapidly cooling it in water."
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
> >
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >>
> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
> 


-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Sat Aug  8 09:44:53 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 08:44:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
Message-ID: <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>


Well, I think I?ve narrowed the candidates.  I dropped the Ingersoll Rand after Miq sent me a YouTube video from a guy that has two motors fail, and more Googling seemed to indicate this is a common problem.

I?ve replaced the top end of the pool with the Quincy QT54.  Almost every review on this is positive, and it is more compressor than I?ll ever need.  It is about double the Kobalt in price, which isn?t that much of a deal for me, but it does weigh in at 475 lbs, so I?m not sure I could wrestle it into place.

I think it will be between that one and the Kobalt from Lowes.  The Kobalt should be plenty of air for my needs, but reviews are mixed, and apparently customer service is awful.

BTW, this is replacing a Craftsman 12 gallon, advertised at 3 HP, but being a 110V unit, that seems optimistic at best.

-Darrell

-- 
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA


From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 09:58:27 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:58:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>

The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as possible
when you come out.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:

> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it
> WOULDN?T be a good choice.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when
> quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Could be (the plot thickens):
>>
>> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
>> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
>> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
>> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
>> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
>> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
>> rapidly cooling it in water."
>>
>> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>> >
>> > Peace,
>> > Pat
>> >
>> > Pat Horne
>> > We support Habitat for Humanity
>> >
>> >
>> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused
>> copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>> >
>> > Thanks for the reply.
>> > Bob
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>> >>
>> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>> >>
>> >> Peace,
>> >> Pat
>> >>
>> >> Pat Horne
>> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably,
>> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry
>> red?'
>> >>
>> >> Bob
>> >>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>>
>>
>
> --
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug  8 10:06:46 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:06:46 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I disagree to some extent on the water/oil quench vs. air cool, from text and experience.  I?ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers and while there may be a difference, it?s minor making the two methods interchangeable in my experience, especially if I am trying to go from half hard to a softer condition.   A quench is the ultimate way to soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference in hardness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ferrous,quickly%20by%20quenching%20in%20water.

https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper#:~:text=You%20quench%20carbon%20steel%20to,the%20resulting%20crystalline%20structure%20is.&text=So%2C%20to%20anneal%20a%20hardened,heating%20it%20red%20anneals%20it.

The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean cycle of a home over or any other suggestions?  I may talk with my body guy about using his Oxy torch.  That was a good suggestion.

Thanks,

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Pat Horne
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:44 AM
To: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN?T be a good choice.

Peace,
Pat
Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com<mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
?
This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
Could be (the plot thickens):

"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
rapidly cooling it in water."

https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper



On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
> Bob
>
>
>> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>>
>> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
>>
>> Bob
>>

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
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--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug  8 10:12:30 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:12:30 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I agree, but I?m not sure at what temperature the oven will release the latch and I?m not modifying the latch on a new Inductive range. <grin>  Thought about it on the old over for making high temperature 900?F pizza, but that was the old oven????

The path forward using the oven is probably going to be the first step.  If it gets me at or close to what I need, I will be done.  If not, I will get with my body guy and see if I can use his Oxy torch.

Thanks everyone,

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of John Innis
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM
To: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as possible when you come out.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN?T be a good choice.

Peace,
Pat
Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com<mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
?
This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
Could be (the plot thickens):

"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
rapidly cooling it in water."

https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper



On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
> Bob
>
>
>> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>>
>> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
>>
>> Bob
>>

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
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--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug  8 10:14:47 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:14:47 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgakax3smook6vRShkTGWrxuqMqcWFuw+Rog5cwypjpT4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB3151AC3DB810D25E4C887403A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <58789C35-649C-4002-92F5-218359FD35E4@icloud.com>
 <CAG1pxgakax3smook6vRShkTGWrxuqMqcWFuw+Rog5cwypjpT4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB315161EB8C45745AB0BCCA03A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Doug,

I tried that with the Norton Jugs.  Mrs. Jack has an incredible nose.  She would know. I?m being upfront.  It?s been discussed.

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of old dirtbeard
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 6:43 AM
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven.

Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...  :-)

best,

doug

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Will that get hot enough?

Peace,
Pat
Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com<mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
?
I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the  ?Half-Hard? state and making them ?Dead-Soft? will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble the system.

I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can?t get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have one.  MAPP gas is hotter, but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.

I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.

I?d prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.

Thanks in advance,

Jack
_______________________________________________

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From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Aug  8 10:17:08 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:17:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7B0A3224-3988-487A-9187-0E2535923DDF@icloud.com>

Most self cleaning ovens have a lock that keeps them from opening at higher temperatures. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:58 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:

?
The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as possible when you come out.  

> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN?T be a good choice. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Could be (the plot thickens):
>> 
>> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to 
>> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and 
>> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You 
>> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame 
>> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way 
>> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and 
>> rapidly cooling it in water."
>> 
>> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>> >
>> > Peace,
>> > Pat
>> >
>> > Pat Horne
>> > We support Habitat for Humanity
>> >
>> >
>> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>> >
>> > Thanks for the reply.
>> > Bob
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>> >>
>> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>> >>
>> >> Peace,
>> >> Pat
>> >>
>> >> Pat Horne
>> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
>> >>
>> >> Bob
>> >>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> 


-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 11:13:33 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:13:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <4d7f0f33-73eb-5cfa-777c-edde35490145@comcast.net>

The temperature that the copper reaches is controlled by the rate at
which the heat escapes it vs the rate at which heat is added to it, and
finally by the temperature of the flame.

An oxy-fuel torch adds heat quickly, so the rate at which it is lost is
less of a problem. Propane/air is not as hot as oxy/fuel, but they're
both plenty hot enough.

I would expect a propane torch to do OK as long as your copper bar is
reasonably well insulated from the outside world - how about [nearly]
burying it in vermiculite? Add heat in the middle with the rest of the
bar pretty well buried and it should get reasonably hot throughout. You
could use a Tempil Stik or an IR thermometer near the ends to see when
it has heated sufficiently.

It would be easy enough to then pick up the bar with pliers or tongs and
dunk it.

At least I'd try that before tempting the fates with Mrs. Jack's oven.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 12:06 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
> I disagree to some extent on the water/oil quench vs. air cool, from
> text and experience.? I?ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers and
> while there may be a difference, it?s minor making the two methods
> interchangeable in my experience, especially if I am trying to go from
> half hard to a softer condition.? ?A quench is the ultimate way to
> soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference in
> hardness.
> 
> ?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ferrous,quickly%20by%20quenching%20in%20water.
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper#:~:text=You%20quench%20carbon%20steel%20to,the%20resulting%20crystalline%20structure%20is.&text=So%2C%20to%20anneal%20a%20hardened,heating%20it%20red%20anneals%20it.
> 
> The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean cycle
> of a home over or any other suggestions?? I may talk with my body guy
> about using his Oxy torch.? That was a good suggestion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Pat
> Horne
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:44 AM
> *To:* John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
> 
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it
> WOULDN?T be a good choice. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com
> <mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> This matches my understanding as well.? Brass and copper soften when
> quenched.? Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
> <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Could be (the plot thickens):
> 
>     "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
>     bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
>     mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
>     can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a
>     flame
>     that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward
>     way
>     to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
>     rapidly cooling it in water."
> 
>     https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
> 
> 
> 
>     On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>     >
>     > Peace,
>     > Pat
>     >
>     > Pat Horne
>     > We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >
>     >
>     > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >
>     > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused
>     copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>     >
>     > Thanks for the reply.
>     > Bob
>     >
>     >
>     >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>     >>
>     >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>     >>
>     >> Peace,
>     >> Pat
>     >>
>     >> Pat Horne
>     >> We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water,
>     presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been
>     heated 'cherry red?'
>     >>
>     >> Bob
>     >>
> 
>     _______________________________________________
> 
>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you?? =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown? =
> =================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation ?$12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net
> 

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 11:14:06 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:14:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <0a2c9285-7465-ca18-82ad-b3ddcd282d5c@comcast.net>

The temperature that the copper reaches is controlled by the rate at
which the heat escapes it vs the rate at which heat is added to it, and
finally by the temperature of the flame.

An oxy-fuel torch adds heat quickly, so the rate at which it is lost is
less of a problem. Propane/air is not as hot as oxy/fuel, but they're
both plenty hot enough.

I would expect a propane torch to do OK as long as your copper bar is
reasonably well insulated from the outside world - how about [nearly]
burying it in vermiculite? Add heat in the middle with the rest of the
bar pretty well buried and it should get reasonably hot throughout. You
could use a Tempil Stik or an IR thermometer near the ends to see when
it has heated sufficiently.

It would be easy enough to then pick up the bar with pliers or tongs and
dunk it.

At least I'd try that before tempting the fates with Mrs. Jack's oven.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 12:06 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
> I disagree to some extent on the water/oil quench vs. air cool, from
> text and experience.? I?ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers and
> while there may be a difference, it?s minor making the two methods
> interchangeable in my experience, especially if I am trying to go from
> half hard to a softer condition.? ?A quench is the ultimate way to
> soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference in
> hardness.
> 
> ?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ferrous,quickly%20by%20quenching%20in%20water.
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper#:~:text=You%20quench%20carbon%20steel%20to,the%20resulting%20crystalline%20structure%20is.&text=So%2C%20to%20anneal%20a%20hardened,heating%20it%20red%20anneals%20it.
> 
> The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean cycle
> of a home over or any other suggestions?? I may talk with my body guy
> about using his Oxy torch.? That was a good suggestion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Pat
> Horne
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:44 AM
> *To:* John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
> 
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it
> WOULDN?T be a good choice. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com
> <mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> This matches my understanding as well.? Brass and copper soften when
> quenched.? Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
> <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Could be (the plot thickens):
> 
>     "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
>     bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
>     mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
>     can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a
>     flame
>     that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward
>     way
>     to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
>     rapidly cooling it in water."
> 
>     https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
> 
> 
> 
>     On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>     >
>     > Peace,
>     > Pat
>     >
>     > Pat Horne
>     > We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >
>     >
>     > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >
>     > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused
>     copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>     >
>     > Thanks for the reply.
>     > Bob
>     >
>     >
>     >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>     >>
>     >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>     >>
>     >> Peace,
>     >> Pat
>     >>
>     >> Pat Horne
>     >> We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water,
>     presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been
>     heated 'cherry red?'
>     >>
>     >> Bob
>     >>

From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug  8 11:17:19 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 17:17:19 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <4d7f0f33-73eb-5cfa-777c-edde35490145@comcast.net>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <4d7f0f33-73eb-5cfa-777c-edde35490145@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB3140CE30A5D46BFDF47CE949A8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Donald, good point.  I can work on insulating better.

Thanks,

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net> 
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:14 AM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

The temperature that the copper reaches is controlled by the rate at which the heat escapes it vs the rate at which heat is added to it, and finally by the temperature of the flame.

An oxy-fuel torch adds heat quickly, so the rate at which it is lost is less of a problem. Propane/air is not as hot as oxy/fuel, but they're both plenty hot enough.

I would expect a propane torch to do OK as long as your copper bar is reasonably well insulated from the outside world - how about [nearly] burying it in vermiculite? Add heat in the middle with the rest of the bar pretty well buried and it should get reasonably hot throughout. You could use a Tempil Stik or an IR thermometer near the ends to see when it has heated sufficiently.

It would be easy enough to then pick up the bar with pliers or tongs and dunk it.

At least I'd try that before tempting the fates with Mrs. Jack's oven.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail /\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 12:06 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
> I disagree to some extent on the water/oil quench vs. air cool, from 
> text and experience.? I?ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers 
> and while there may be a difference, it?s minor making the two methods 
> interchangeable in my experience, especially if I am trying to go from 
> half hard to a softer condition.? ?A quench is the ultimate way to 
> soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference 
> in hardness.
> 
> ?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ferrous,quickly%20by%20quenching%20in%20water.
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper#:~:text=You%20quench%20carbon%20steel%20to,the%20resulting%20crystalline%20structure%20is.&text=So%2C%20to%20anneal%20a%20hardened,heating%20it%20red%20anneals%20it.
> 
> The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean 
> cycle of a home over or any other suggestions?? I may talk with my 
> body guy about using his Oxy torch.? That was a good suggestion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of 
> *Pat Horne
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:44 AM
> *To:* John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
> 
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, 
> it WOULDN?T be a good choice.
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com 
> <mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> This matches my understanding as well.? Brass and copper soften when 
> quenched.? Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net 
> <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Could be (the plot thickens):
> 
>     "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
>     bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
>     mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
>     can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a
>     flame
>     that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward
>     way
>     to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
>     rapidly cooling it in water."
> 
>     https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
> 
> 
> 
>     On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>     >
>     > Peace,
>     > Pat
>     >
>     > Pat Horne
>     > We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >
>     >
>     > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >
>     > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused
>     copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>     >
>     > Thanks for the reply.
>     > Bob
>     >
>     >
>     >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>     >>
>     >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>     >>
>     >> Peace,
>     >> Pat
>     >>
>     >> Pat Horne
>     >> We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water,
>     presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been
>     heated 'cherry red?'
>     >>
>     >> Bob
>     >>
> 
>     _______________________________________________
> 
>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you?? = = can offend with 
> substance --- Sam Brown? = =================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation ?
> $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation  
> $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net
> 

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 11:56:59 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 12:56:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YCk7Pwn6PkSHEwXgFcCsoLUqUyfAY0jQ5BPXz=6wzr=kQ@mail.gmail.com>

Another option for you, find someone that has a kiln.  I have an old
electric kiln that I got for free because it was old.  I added a simple
thermocouple temperature gauge to it and it works great for annealing and
heat treating small parts.  My next project is actually adding solid-state
relays and a PID controller so I can do some more precise temperature
control.  If you do this, or use a modified oven, do be careful.  There is
a reason that oven doors lock at high temperatures.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:

> I agree, but I?m not sure at what temperature the oven will release the
> latch and I?m not modifying the latch on a new Inductive range. <grin>
> Thought about it on the old over for making high temperature 900?F pizza,
> but that was the old oven????
>
>
>
> The path forward using the oven is probably going to be the first step.
> If it gets me at or close to what I need, I will be done.  If not, I will
> get with my body guy and see if I can use his Oxy torch.
>
>
>
> Thanks everyone,
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> * On Behalf Of *John
> Innis
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM
> *To:* Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
>
>
>
> The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as
> possible when you come out.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it
> WOULDN?T be a good choice.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
>
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when
> quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Could be (the plot thickens):
>
> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
> rapidly cooling it in water."
>
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
>
>
>
> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper,
> mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
> >
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >>
> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably,
> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry
> red?'
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug  8 12:16:42 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 18:16:42 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YCk7Pwn6PkSHEwXgFcCsoLUqUyfAY0jQ5BPXz=6wzr=kQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YCk7Pwn6PkSHEwXgFcCsoLUqUyfAY0jQ5BPXz=6wzr=kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB3140FFBB9D360C544B20F3C6A8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

John,

Agreed.  I built a PID Controller setup for my smoker using a Inkjet 106-RL.  It?s a great way to go.  Now I just need to find a kiln.  I can provide some good info if you are still working on it.

Yes, aware of issues opening a 900?F oven.

Jack

From: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:57 AM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

Another option for you, find someone that has a kiln.  I have an old electric kiln that I got for free because it was old.  I added a simple thermocouple temperature gauge to it and it works great for annealing and heat treating small parts.  My next project is actually adding solid-state relays and a PID controller so I can do some more precise temperature control.  If you do this, or use a modified oven, do be careful.  There is a reason that oven doors lock at high temperatures.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com<mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
I agree, but I?m not sure at what temperature the oven will release the latch and I?m not modifying the latch on a new Inductive range. <grin>  Thought about it on the old over for making high temperature 900?F pizza, but that was the old oven????

The path forward using the oven is probably going to be the first step.  If it gets me at or close to what I need, I will be done.  If not, I will get with my body guy and see if I can use his Oxy torch.

Thanks everyone,

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of John Innis
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM
To: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as possible when you come out.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN?T be a good choice.

Peace,
Pat
Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com<mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
?
This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
Could be (the plot thickens):

"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
rapidly cooling it in water."

https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper



On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
> Bob
>
>
>> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>>
>> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
>>
>> Bob
>>

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com


--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com


--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 12:36:27 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:36:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR06MB3140FFBB9D360C544B20F3C6A8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YCk7Pwn6PkSHEwXgFcCsoLUqUyfAY0jQ5BPXz=6wzr=kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR06MB3140FFBB9D360C544B20F3C6A8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YDsTK8n+PrCth-chaRQ0si4dr2r0-=evhdYzrM4SNmQSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sure be glad to have more info. I have done a lot of arduino projects, but
have been finding the PID theory a bit of a tough nut to crack.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:19 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:

> John,
>
>
>
> Agreed.  I built a PID Controller setup for my smoker using a Inkjet
> 106-RL.  It?s a great way to go.  Now I just need to find a kiln.  I can
> provide some good info if you are still working on it.
>
>
>
> Yes, aware of issues opening a 900?F oven.
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> *From:* John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:57 AM
> *To:* Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
>
>
>
> Another option for you, find someone that has a kiln.  I have an old
> electric kiln that I got for free because it was old.  I added a simple
> thermocouple temperature gauge to it and it works great for annealing and
> heat treating small parts.  My next project is actually adding solid-state
> relays and a PID controller so I can do some more precise temperature
> control.  If you do this, or use a modified oven, do be careful.  There is
> a reason that oven doors lock at high temperatures.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>
> I agree, but I?m not sure at what temperature the oven will release the
> latch and I?m not modifying the latch on a new Inductive range. <grin>
> Thought about it on the old over for making high temperature 900?F pizza,
> but that was the old oven????
>
>
>
> The path forward using the oven is probably going to be the first step.
> If it gets me at or close to what I need, I will be done.  If not, I will
> get with my body guy and see if I can use his Oxy torch.
>
>
>
> Thanks everyone,
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *John
> Innis
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM
> *To:* Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
>
>
>
> The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as
> possible when you come out.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it
> WOULDN?T be a good choice.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
>
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when
> quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Could be (the plot thickens):
>
> "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
> bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
> mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
> can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
> that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
> to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
> rapidly cooling it in water."
>
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
>
>
>
> On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper,
> mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
> >
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >>
> >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably,
> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry
> red?'
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
> =================================
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug  8 12:59:13 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 18:59:13 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YDsTK8n+PrCth-chaRQ0si4dr2r0-=evhdYzrM4SNmQSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YCk7Pwn6PkSHEwXgFcCsoLUqUyfAY0jQ5BPXz=6wzr=kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR06MB3140FFBB9D360C544B20F3C6A8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YDsTK8n+PrCth-chaRQ0si4dr2r0-=evhdYzrM4SNmQSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN6PR06MB31409B97F7FC525664EBF83FA8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

John,

Take a look at the attached pdf, which is for a smoker, but has everything you need to know for setting up a kiln.  Just add a high amp relay (Solid State might be best) instead of the fan output.  At a minimum, it will get you moving in the right direction, as the information is good.

Remember Thermocouples are polarity sensitive.  One lead on a K-type is magnetic, making it easy to figure out.

I found a ton of great information at https://www.facebook.com/groups/516149118764276/.  It?s a private FB group called ?Tech Savvy BBQ?  but very knowledgeable about PID controllers and was easy to get approved for.

Listers, I can forward this pdf to you also, as the server will strip the attachment.  Just let me know.

Jack

From: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 11:36 AM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

Sure be glad to have more info. I have done a lot of arduino projects, but have been finding the PID theory a bit of a tough nut to crack.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:19 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com<mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
John,

Agreed.  I built a PID Controller setup for my smoker using a Inkjet 106-RL.  It?s a great way to go.  Now I just need to find a kiln.  I can provide some good info if you are still working on it.

Yes, aware of issues opening a 900?F oven.

Jack

From: John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com<mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:57 AM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com<mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

Another option for you, find someone that has a kiln.  I have an old electric kiln that I got for free because it was old.  I added a simple thermocouple temperature gauge to it and it works great for annealing and heat treating small parts.  My next project is actually adding solid-state relays and a PID controller so I can do some more precise temperature control.  If you do this, or use a modified oven, do be careful.  There is a reason that oven doors lock at high temperatures.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com<mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
I agree, but I?m not sure at what temperature the oven will release the latch and I?m not modifying the latch on a new Inductive range. <grin>  Thought about it on the old over for making high temperature 900?F pizza, but that was the old oven????

The path forward using the oven is probably going to be the first step.  If it gets me at or close to what I need, I will be done.  If not, I will get with my body guy and see if I can use his Oxy torch.

Thanks everyone,

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of John Innis
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:58 AM
To: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>>
Cc: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

The oven would work fine, you just need to add a quench as soon as possible when you come out.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:43 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, it WOULDN?T be a good choice.

Peace,
Pat
Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com<mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
?
This matches my understanding as well.  Brass and copper soften when quenched.  Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
Could be (the plot thickens):

"Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a flame
that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward way
to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
rapidly cooling it in water."

https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper



On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
> Bob
>
>
>> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>>
>> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
>>
>> Bob
>>

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 13:58:13 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 15:58:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a Kobalt that looks like the 60 gallon they currently sell.
Though it may have little relevance to today, I've had mine for about ten
years and it's worked fine for my occasional shop puttering.   I've
sometimes left it switched on for a week at a time so the neighbors can
enjoy it every time the hoses leak down, and it's always run fine.

Just remember when you're unloading it with the engine crane - it's top
heavy and you've slung it below the center of gravity.  You may find out
too late that this is relevant.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:45 AM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:

>
> Well, I think I?ve narrowed the candidates.  I dropped the Ingersoll Rand
> after Miq sent me a YouTube video from a guy that has two motors fail, and
> more Googling seemed to indicate this is a common problem.
>
> I?ve replaced the top end of the pool with the Quincy QT54.  Almost every
> review on this is positive, and it is more compressor than I?ll ever need.
> It is about double the Kobalt in price, which isn?t that much of a deal for
> me, but it does weigh in at 475 lbs, so I?m not sure I could wrestle it
> into place.
>
> I think it will be between that one and the Kobalt from Lowes.  The Kobalt
> should be plenty of air for my needs, but reviews are mixed, and apparently
> customer service is awful.
>
> BTW, this is replacing a Craftsman 12 gallon, advertised at 3 HP, but
> being a 110V unit, that seems optimistic at best.
>
> -Darrell
>
> --
> Darrell Walker
> 66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
> 81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
> Vancouver, WA, USA
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
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>
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> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 15:51:39 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 17:51:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YDsTK8n+PrCth-chaRQ0si4dr2r0-=evhdYzrM4SNmQSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YCk7Pwn6PkSHEwXgFcCsoLUqUyfAY0jQ5BPXz=6wzr=kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR06MB3140FFBB9D360C544B20F3C6A8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YDsTK8n+PrCth-chaRQ0si4dr2r0-=evhdYzrM4SNmQSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <838eac9f-ff7b-3990-bf87-0e9428085726@comcast.net>

PID theory can be very obscure. PID implementation is rather simple.
(And I hope I don't have _too_ many typos below; it is not code-checked,
but the basics are there.)

Note that in the pseudo-code below, Error terms are in units of the
controlled variable (e.g. degF or furlongsPerFortnight or PSIG); the
Correction and Output values are in per cent. Heaters usually only add
heat, so the output would range from 0% to 100%; something like a motor
might have a reversible controller and could use -100% to +100% as its
control, so the MIN_OUTPUT would be changed to be suitable.

The entire PID algorithm is fairly simple; most of the control should
usually be Proportional - bigger error -> bigger correction. The
Integral correction is to help correct for long-term errors, while the
Differential correction helps damp oscillations of the Proportional
correction and tends to reduce overshoot for quick changes.

To "tune" the PID, start with Ki and Kd set to 0.0, and set Kp to a
value that is equal to your maximum output error / 100. For example, if
you want the controlled variable to be no worse than 10F, Kp would be
0.1 to start. (This is probably way too large because it means the the
heaters will be on 100% if the temperature is more than 10F off, but
it's a place to start.) By increasing or decreasing Kp (I usually adjust
by a factor of 1.4 each time, so every two changes give a factor of 2),
you'll find a value that gives stable output, though the controlled
variable will probably not be very close to you desired set point. If Kp
is too large, the output (and your controlled variable) will oscillate
at the "natural frequency" of the system you are controlling.

Now comes a little magic - add some Ki (start with about 10% of Kp) and
watch the control. It will (eventually) get the controlled variable very
close to your set point, but it might be slow. If Ki is too large, you
will get slow oscillations - time to dial it back until those stop. If
it seems sluggish, increase Ki until you see the oscillations, then back
off again until it seems stable.

Do a similar tweaking with Kd, though if the Kd is too large, the output
will be "twitchy" - kind of like fast oscillations. This is harder to
describe, but I hope that gives you the concept.

============== pseudo code below ================

const double MAX_OUTPUT = 100.0; // output is in per cent
const double MIN_OUTPUT = 0.0; // reversible motors could use -100.0
const double tPeriod = 0.100; // we'll use 100ms for example

static double IntegratedError;

// Tuning settings:
double Kp; // = Proportional "gain" (a settable constant)
double Ki; // = Integral "gain" (another settable constant)
double Kd; // = Differential "gain" (one more settable constant)

// Initialise everything except the gains to 0.0 at the beginning
// of time, then get the SetPoint, and the ActualValue,
// call the PID_loop() function and send the return value to the output

double PID_loop (double SetPoint, double ActualValue)
{
   // During the operation, the following calculations are performed at
   // regular intervals (1sec or 100ms or faster, depending on how fast
   // the system you are controlling)

   double PreviousError = CurrentError;

   double CurrentError = SetPoint - ActualValue;
   IntegratedError = IntegratedError + CurrentError;

   ProportionalCorrection = Kp * CurrentError;
   IntegralCorrection = Ki * IntegralError;
   // make sure the Integrator doesn't continue to + or -infinity!
   // (IntegratedError is the only variable with long-term memory
   //  so it's the only one with this particular patchup)
   if (IntegralCorrection > MAX_OUTPUT)
   {
      IntegralCorrection = MAX_OUTPUT;
      IntegratedError = MAX_OUTPUT/Ki;
   }
   else if (IntegralCorrection < MIN_OUTPUT)
   {
      IntegralCorrection = MIN_OUTPUT;
      IntegratedError = MIN_OUTPUT/Ki;
   }

   DifferentialError = CurrentError - PreviousError;
   DifferentialCorrection = Kd * DifferentialError;

   NetCorrection = ProportionalCorrection
                 + IntegralCorrection
                 + DifferentialCorrection;

   // make sure we don't return invalid corrections
   if (NetCorrection > MAX_OUTPUT) NetCorrection = MAX_OUTPUT;
   if (NetCorrection < MIN_OUTPUT) NetCorrection = MIN_OUTPUT;

   return NetCorrection; // this is the PID output
}
============== end of pseudo code ================

*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 2:36 p.m., John Innis wrote:
> Sure be glad to have more info. I have done a lot of arduino projects,
> but have been finding the PID theory a bit of a tough nut to crack.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:19 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com
> <mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
> 
>     John,____
> 
>     __?__
> 
>     Agreed.? I built a PID Controller setup for my smoker using a Inkjet
>     106-RL.? It?s a great way to go.? Now I just need to find a kiln.? I
>     can provide some good info if you are still working on it. ____
> 
>     __?__
> 
>     Yes, aware of issues opening a 900?F oven.? ____
> 

[snip]

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 16:01:48 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 18:01:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <838eac9f-ff7b-3990-bf87-0e9428085726@comcast.net>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YDTZJGWCXG846WcOV42teORZfrNfCLk-uQSJx7VD8aSVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31518839FCDD28FF61FCB4C9A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YCk7Pwn6PkSHEwXgFcCsoLUqUyfAY0jQ5BPXz=6wzr=kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR06MB3140FFBB9D360C544B20F3C6A8460@BN6PR06MB3140.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANuE7YDsTK8n+PrCth-chaRQ0si4dr2r0-=evhdYzrM4SNmQSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <838eac9f-ff7b-3990-bf87-0e9428085726@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3c55d715-e2ee-9fdd-f218-24f824f3ec01@comcast.net>

Oops; DifferentialCorrection should be (Kd * DifferentialError)/tPeriod;
but it's not a big deal, since tPeriod should be constant anyway.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 5:51 p.m., Donald H Locker wrote:
> PID theory can be very obscure. PID implementation is rather simple.
> (And I hope I don't have _too_ many typos below; it is not code-checked,
> but the basics are there.)
> 
> Note that in the pseudo-code below, Error terms are in units of the
> controlled variable (e.g. degF or furlongsPerFortnight or PSIG); the
> Correction and Output values are in per cent. Heaters usually only add
> heat, so the output would range from 0% to 100%; something like a motor
> might have a reversible controller and could use -100% to +100% as its
> control, so the MIN_OUTPUT would be changed to be suitable.
> 
> The entire PID algorithm is fairly simple; most of the control should
> usually be Proportional - bigger error -> bigger correction. The
> Integral correction is to help correct for long-term errors, while the
> Differential correction helps damp oscillations of the Proportional
> correction and tends to reduce overshoot for quick changes.
> 
> To "tune" the PID, start with Ki and Kd set to 0.0, and set Kp to a
> value that is equal to your maximum output error / 100. For example, if
> you want the controlled variable to be no worse than 10F, Kp would be
> 0.1 to start. (This is probably way too large because it means the the
> heaters will be on 100% if the temperature is more than 10F off, but
> it's a place to start.) By increasing or decreasing Kp (I usually adjust
> by a factor of 1.4 each time, so every two changes give a factor of 2),
> you'll find a value that gives stable output, though the controlled
> variable will probably not be very close to you desired set point. If Kp
> is too large, the output (and your controlled variable) will oscillate
> at the "natural frequency" of the system you are controlling.
> 
> Now comes a little magic - add some Ki (start with about 10% of Kp) and
> watch the control. It will (eventually) get the controlled variable very
> close to your set point, but it might be slow. If Ki is too large, you
> will get slow oscillations - time to dial it back until those stop. If
> it seems sluggish, increase Ki until you see the oscillations, then back
> off again until it seems stable.
> 
> Do a similar tweaking with Kd, though if the Kd is too large, the output
> will be "twitchy" - kind of like fast oscillations. This is harder to
> describe, but I hope that gives you the concept.
> 
> ============== pseudo code below ================
> 
> const double MAX_OUTPUT = 100.0; // output is in per cent
> const double MIN_OUTPUT = 0.0; // reversible motors could use -100.0
> const double tPeriod = 0.100; // we'll use 100ms for example
> 
> static double IntegratedError;
> 
> // Tuning settings:
> double Kp; // = Proportional "gain" (a settable constant)
> double Ki; // = Integral "gain" (another settable constant)
> double Kd; // = Differential "gain" (one more settable constant)
> 
> // Initialise everything except the gains to 0.0 at the beginning
> // of time, then get the SetPoint, and the ActualValue,
> // call the PID_loop() function and send the return value to the output
> 
> double PID_loop (double SetPoint, double ActualValue)
> {
>    // During the operation, the following calculations are performed at
>    // regular intervals (1sec or 100ms or faster, depending on how fast
>    // the system you are controlling)
> 
>    double PreviousError = CurrentError;
> 
>    double CurrentError = SetPoint - ActualValue;
>    IntegratedError = IntegratedError + CurrentError;
> 
>    ProportionalCorrection = Kp * CurrentError;
>    IntegralCorrection = Ki * IntegralError;
>    // make sure the Integrator doesn't continue to + or -infinity!
>    // (IntegratedError is the only variable with long-term memory
>    //  so it's the only one with this particular patchup)
>    if (IntegralCorrection > MAX_OUTPUT)
>    {
>       IntegralCorrection = MAX_OUTPUT;
>       IntegratedError = MAX_OUTPUT/Ki;
>    }
>    else if (IntegralCorrection < MIN_OUTPUT)
>    {
>       IntegralCorrection = MIN_OUTPUT;
>       IntegratedError = MIN_OUTPUT/Ki;
>    }
> 
>    DifferentialError = CurrentError - PreviousError;
>    DifferentialCorrection = Kd * DifferentialError;
> 
>    NetCorrection = ProportionalCorrection
>                  + IntegralCorrection
>                  + DifferentialCorrection;
> 
>    // make sure we don't return invalid corrections
>    if (NetCorrection > MAX_OUTPUT) NetCorrection = MAX_OUTPUT;
>    if (NetCorrection < MIN_OUTPUT) NetCorrection = MIN_OUTPUT;
> 
>    return NetCorrection; // this is the PID output
> }
> ============== end of pseudo code ================
> 
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>
> 
> On 2020-08-08 2:36 p.m., John Innis wrote:
>> Sure be glad to have more info. I have done a lot of arduino projects,
>> but have been finding the PID theory a bit of a tough nut to crack.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:19 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com
>> <mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     John,____
>>
>>     __?__
>>
>>     Agreed.? I built a PID Controller setup for my smoker using a Inkjet
>>     106-RL.? It?s a great way to go.? Now I just need to find a kiln.? I
>>     can provide some good info if you are still working on it. ____
>>
>>     __?__
>>
>>     Yes, aware of issues opening a 900?F oven.? ____
>>
> 
> [snip]
> 

From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug  8 16:50:49 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 22:50:49 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <0a2c9285-7465-ca18-82ad-b3ddcd282d5c@comcast.net>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a2c9285-7465-ca18-82ad-b3ddcd282d5c@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB31517CFCC1E1EAA2C23A3B57A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Insulation - BINGO!  Great thought Donald!

I underestimated copper's heat transmission rate.  Using propane, I could not get a 1/8 x 1 inch x 8 inch bar to get to glow with the bottom of the bar clamped in a vice.  I decided to try "Insulating". 

I laid a 3 inch long copper bar (typical busbar length) across the teeth of two sections of a coarse hack saw blade clamped off to the side of my vice.  There is almost no contact between the copper bar and these supports, only across the tips of the teeth on the two halves of the hack saw blades, so maybe a dozen pinheads.  With this arrangement and with a partially-dark room, I could just barely see the red glow in the copper. After a quench, the copper bar was soft!

I now have a method.  Now I have to insure that I can clean up the contact surfaces well without affecting the flatness and I can go forward with softening the real busbars.

Thank you everyone for a fun adventure in learning,

Jack


-----Original Message-----
From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net> 
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:14 AM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

The temperature that the copper reaches is controlled by the rate at which the heat escapes it vs the rate at which heat is added to it, and finally by the temperature of the flame.

An oxy-fuel torch adds heat quickly, so the rate at which it is lost is less of a problem. Propane/air is not as hot as oxy/fuel, but they're both plenty hot enough.

I would expect a propane torch to do OK as long as your copper bar is reasonably well insulated from the outside world - how about [nearly] burying it in vermiculite? Add heat in the middle with the rest of the bar pretty well buried and it should get reasonably hot throughout. You could use a Tempil Stik or an IR thermometer near the ends to see when it has heated sufficiently.

It would be easy enough to then pick up the bar with pliers or tongs and dunk it.

At least I'd try that before tempting the fates with Mrs. Jack's oven.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail /\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 12:06 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
> I disagree to some extent on the water/oil quench vs. air cool, from 
> text and experience.? I?ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers 
> and while there may be a difference, it?s minor making the two methods 
> interchangeable in my experience, especially if I am trying to go from 
> half hard to a softer condition.? ?A quench is the ultimate way to 
> soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference 
> in hardness.
> 
> ?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ferrous,quickly%20by%20quenching%20in%20water.
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper#:~:text=You%20quench%20carbon%20steel%20to,the%20resulting%20crystalline%20structure%20is.&text=So%2C%20to%20anneal%20a%20hardened,heating%20it%20red%20anneals%20it.
> 
> The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean 
> cycle of a home over or any other suggestions?? I may talk with my 
> body guy about using his Oxy torch.? That was a good suggestion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of 
> *Pat Horne
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:44 AM
> *To:* John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
> 
> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, 
> it WOULDN?T be a good choice.
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com 
> <mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> This matches my understanding as well.? Brass and copper soften when 
> quenched.? Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:59 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net 
> <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Could be (the plot thickens):
> 
>     "Annealing copper makes it softer and less brittle, which allows you to
>     bend it without breaking it. This malleability allows you to hammer and
>     mold the copper into any shape you wish without cracking the metal. You
>     can anneal any grade and thickness of copper as long as you have a
>     flame
>     that can transmit enough heat to the metal. The most straightforward
>     way
>     to anneal copper is by heating it with an oxygen acetylene torch and
>     rapidly cooling it in water."
> 
>     https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper
> 
> 
> 
>     On 8/8/2020 7:43 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     > Maybe you?re right & I?m wrong! Wouldn?t be the first time.
>     >
>     > Peace,
>     > Pat
>     >
>     > Pat Horne
>     > We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >
>     >
>     > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >
>     > ?Well snap. I've been doing it wrong all these years I've reused
>     copper, mostly on sealing washers for oil pan plugs.
>     >
>     > Thanks for the reply.
>     > Bob
>     >
>     >
>     >> On 8/8/2020 7:21 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
>     >> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>     >>
>     >> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>     >>
>     >> Peace,
>     >> Pat
>     >>
>     >> Pat Horne
>     >> We support Habitat for Humanity
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
>     <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water,
>     presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been
>     heated 'cherry red?'
>     >>
>     >> Bob
>     >>

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Aug  8 17:02:18 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 19:02:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB31517CFCC1E1EAA2C23A3B57A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a2c9285-7465-ca18-82ad-b3ddcd282d5c@comcast.net>
 <MWHPR06MB31517CFCC1E1EAA2C23A3B57A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <65b12bbd-7307-2d9b-9ea2-7c96610ac897@comcast.net>

Cool! (so to speak.) I would have thought more insulation would have
been required, but it sounds like that is sufficient.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 6:50 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
> Insulation - BINGO!  Great thought Donald!
> 
> I underestimated copper's heat transmission rate.  Using propane, I could not get a 1/8 x 1 inch x 8 inch bar to get to glow with the bottom of the bar clamped in a vice.  I decided to try "Insulating". 
> 
> I laid a 3 inch long copper bar (typical busbar length) across the teeth of two sections of a coarse hack saw blade clamped off to the side of my vice.  There is almost no contact between the copper bar and these supports, only across the tips of the teeth on the two halves of the hack saw blades, so maybe a dozen pinheads.  With this arrangement and with a partially-dark room, I could just barely see the red glow in the copper. After a quench, the copper bar was soft!
> 
> I now have a method.  Now I have to insure that I can clean up the contact surfaces well without affecting the flatness and I can go forward with softening the real busbars.
> 
> Thank you everyone for a fun adventure in learning,
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net> 
> Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:14 AM
> To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
> 
> The temperature that the copper reaches is controlled by the rate at which the heat escapes it vs the rate at which heat is added to it, and finally by the temperature of the flame.
> 
> An oxy-fuel torch adds heat quickly, so the rate at which it is lost is less of a problem. Propane/air is not as hot as oxy/fuel, but they're both plenty hot enough.
> 
> I would expect a propane torch to do OK as long as your copper bar is reasonably well insulated from the outside world - how about [nearly] burying it in vermiculite? Add heat in the middle with the rest of the bar pretty well buried and it should get reasonably hot throughout. You could use a Tempil Stik or an IR thermometer near the ends to see when it has heated sufficiently.
> 
> It would be easy enough to then pick up the bar with pliers or tongs and dunk it.
> 
> At least I'd try that before tempting the fates with Mrs. Jack's oven.
> Donald.
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail /\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>
> 
> On 2020-08-08 12:06 p.m., Jack Brooks wrote:
>> I disagree to some extent on the water/oil quench vs. air cool, from 
>> text and experience.? I?ve done both with oil pan drain plug washers 
>> and while there may be a difference, it?s minor making the two methods 
>> interchangeable in my experience, especially if I am trying to go from 
>> half hard to a softer condition.? ?A quench is the ultimate way to 
>> soften, but just getting it up to temperature makes a huge difference 
>> in hardness.
>>
>> ?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ferrous,quickly%20by%20quenching%20in%20water.
>>
>> https://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper#:~:text=You%20quench%20carbon%20steel%20to,the%20resulting%20crystalline%20structure%20is.&text=So%2C%20to%20anneal%20a%20hardened,heating%20it%20red%20anneals%20it.
>>
>> The question remains, lacking an Oxy torch, thoughts on the clean 
>> cycle of a home over or any other suggestions?? I may talk with my 
>> body guy about using his Oxy torch.? That was a good suggestion.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jack
>>
>> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of 
>> *Pat Horne
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 8, 2020 8:44 AM
>> *To:* John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
>>
>> So, referring back to the OP about using the oven to anneal the bars, 
>> it WOULDN?T be a good choice.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2020, at 10:03 AM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:jdinnis at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> This matches my understanding as well.? Brass and copper soften when 
>> quenched.? Steel and Aluminum harden when quenched.
>>
[snip]

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sat Aug  8 19:27:30 2020
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 20:27:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <085800CD-1957-4034-A1A9-61475A6343C6@icloud.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <085800CD-1957-4034-A1A9-61475A6343C6@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAK73_u6qyXk-+9rF5HjyJPVr_5PpeOMTtY8re6t2rTVA8PLAxA@mail.gmail.com>

Update for those of you sadistic-enough to keep reading: the intake valve
was...loose? Open? The gap was too wide.

The spec is .003 to .006 intake and exhaust - my smallest feeler is .006. I
adjusted it to be tight on .006.

The hard start is totally fixed. Starts great now.

Still won't accelerate. Opening the throttle bogs it and it'll die if you
don't let off. Curing the starting issue seems to have thrown the bogging
issue into starker relief.

Exhaust can is clear. Gas is new. Air filter is clean and freshly oiled and
removing it entirely changes nothing.

I am unfamiliar with valves making something not run--my experience is
either on Ford V-8s or a Triumph 1147 I-4, or Honda or Kawasaki SS
motorcycle engines, none of which ever had issues with the valves. This
thing's valves are literally just adjusted with a 5/16" nut--there's no
locking nut. Is it possible that making the intake or exhaust valve tighter
or looser could cause something like this? Like should I shoot for one end
of the spec of another?

Last thing left would be the coil like Tom suggested. There's no mention of
it in the owners manual and I don't see it in a parts search so far, but I
started with Amazon.

Seriously. I have built--from rusty blocks--a Ford 289 and 390. A Triumph
1147 that came in several Tupperware bins. More rebuilds of CBR600 and
ZX750 engines than I like to think about.

A leaf blower engine is threatening to best me. I want to back over it with
the truck just to make it disappear. I think I'm looking for moral support
here.

Worn cylinder or piston? Bad valve entirely? I could dig out a compression
tester, but there's no spec for it in the manual anyway. I'm kinda at a
loss here.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 7:40 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:

> I had a leaf blower stop running a few years back due to a bad ignition
> coil. Have you verified you?ve got spark? I don?t see that specifically
> mentioned (yes, you did mention the spark plug)
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
> > On 05 Aug 2020, at 5:09 PM, Scott Hall <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it pumps
> using the primer bulb.
> >
> > The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see the
> end of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be that the
> new fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of the fuel line)
> could be restrictive. Working against that theory is that it did the same
> thing with the old fuel filter.
> >
> > I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem is...what's
> left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it.
> >
> > It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and exhaust
> valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition has been
> developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are slowly coming out
> of adjustment?
> >
> > I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't think of
> what else it could be.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb? Try
> starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> >
> >
> > Al Fuller
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Scott
> Hall
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
> > To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
> >
> >
> >
> > Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
> >
> >
> >
> > Replaced the carb and plug.
> >
> >
> >
> > No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
> application of throttle.
> >
> >
> >
> > That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and plug are
> brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing the same thing.
> The carb isn't the problem.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before I just
> toss it?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
> >
> >
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
>
>
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From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sun Aug  9 03:11:13 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 05:11:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u6qyXk-+9rF5HjyJPVr_5PpeOMTtY8re6t2rTVA8PLAxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <085800CD-1957-4034-A1A9-61475A6343C6@icloud.com>
 <CAK73_u6qyXk-+9rF5HjyJPVr_5PpeOMTtY8re6t2rTVA8PLAxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf8a9ee-b96e-a5e9-5c08-e1afbc199ee2@comcast.net>

If the intake valve clearance is too large, the valve does not open
sufficiently and the engine can't breathe in the fuel/air mixture. If
the intake valve clearance is too small, the valve may not close
entirely and the engine will not have compression - no running - or the
combustion gasses may come back through the intake system - backfiring.

If the exhaust valve clearance is too large, the valve willnot open
sufficiently and the engine won't be able to get rid of the burnt
gasses. If an exhaust valve clearance is too small, the valve will not
close entirely and the engine will have insufficient compression - no
running - OR (even worse) the engine may run but the valve is never
closed long enough to cool its face off and it will burn, as will the
valve seat.

I don't know this engine, but if a 5/16 nut is all that secures the
valve setting, it might be worth putting a drop of blue LokTite on that
adjustment after figuring out just where it should be so that it doesn't
"adjust itself" while the engine is running.

It could be rings or burnt valves, but I would expect hard starting in
that case. The coil is likely under the flywheel, as part of the magneto
ignition system. That is typical of small engines. To access it, you'd
have to pull the flywheel which is a right pain, so testing the ignition
system first would be wise.

Hope this helps,
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 9:27 p.m., Scott Hall wrote:
> Update for those of you sadistic-enough to keep reading: the intake
> valve was...loose? Open? The gap was too wide.
> 
> The spec is .003 to .006 intake and exhaust - my smallest?feeler is
> .006. I adjusted it to be tight on .006.?
> 
> The hard start is totally fixed. Starts great now.
> 
> Still won't accelerate. Opening the throttle bogs it and it'll die if
> you don't let off. Curing the starting issue seems to have thrown the
> bogging issue into starker relief.
> 
> Exhaust can is clear. Gas is new. Air filter is clean and freshly oiled
> and removing it entirely changes nothing.
> 
> I am unfamiliar with valves making something not run--my experience is
> either on Ford V-8s or a Triumph 1147 I-4, or Honda or Kawasaki SS
> motorcycle engines, none of which ever had issues with the valves. This
> thing's valves are literally just adjusted with a 5/16" nut--there's no
> locking nut. Is it possible that making the intake or exhaust valve
> tighter or looser could cause something like this? Like should I shoot
> for one end of the spec of another?
> 
> Last thing left would be the coil like Tom suggested. There's no mention
> of it in the owners manual and I don't see it in a parts search so far,
> but I started with Amazon.?
> 
> Seriously. I have built--from rusty blocks--a Ford 289 and 390. A
> Triumph 1147 that came in several Tupperware bins. More rebuilds of
> CBR600 and ZX750 engines than I like to think about.
> 
> A leaf blower engine is threatening to best me. I want to back over it
> with the truck just to make it disappear. I think I'm looking for moral
> support here.
> 
> Worn cylinder or piston? Bad valve entirely? I could dig out a
> compression tester, but there's no spec for it in the manual anyway. I'm
> kinda at a loss here.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 7:40 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com
> <mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I had a leaf blower stop running a few years back due to a bad
>     ignition coil. Have you verified you?ve got spark? I don?t see that
>     specifically mentioned (yes, you did mention the spark plug)
> 
>     ?
>     Tom Coradeschi
>     tjcora at icloud.com <mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>
> 
> 
>     > On 05 Aug 2020, at 5:09 PM, Scott Hall
>     <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
>     <mailto:scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     > The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it
>     pumps using the primer bulb.
>     >
>     > The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see
>     the end of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be
>     that the new fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of
>     the fuel line) could be restrictive. Working against that theory is
>     that it did the same thing with the old fuel filter.
>     >
>     > I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem
>     is...what's left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it.
>     >
>     > It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and
>     exhaust valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition
>     has been developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are
>     slowly coming out of adjustment?
>     >
>     > I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't
>     think of what else it could be.
>     >
>     > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb?
>     Try starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > ----------------
>     >
>     > All the best,
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Al Fuller
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
>     <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Scott Hall
>     > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
>     > To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     > Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Replaced the carb and plug.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
>     application of throttle.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and
>     plug are brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing
>     the same thing. The carb isn't the problem.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before
>     I just toss it?
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Scott
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     >
>     > Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     > Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     http://autox.team.net/archive
>     >
>     > Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>     >
> 
>     _______________________________________________
> 
>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net
> 

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sun Aug  9 03:29:24 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 05:29:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u6qyXk-+9rF5HjyJPVr_5PpeOMTtY8re6t2rTVA8PLAxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <085800CD-1957-4034-A1A9-61475A6343C6@icloud.com>
 <CAK73_u6qyXk-+9rF5HjyJPVr_5PpeOMTtY8re6t2rTVA8PLAxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <969cbc53-4623-6de9-6996-52201d6f7806@comcast.net>

<https://cdn.datamanager.arinet.com/image/MTD/d075d134-a7c8-43a8-95d3-3b44c0191f4a/ExtraLarge>
is an exploded parts diagram of the engine. Ignition module (includes
the coil) is #24; flywheel is #23.

More information is through
<https://www.troybilt.com/en_US/service-and-parts#diagrams>
and put in your model number (I picked the first choice for the TB4BP
because I don't know your exact model number) and poke around for the
engine parts.

Small engines are just like large engines, but smaller :-). They tend to
be more finicky because there is only one cylinder and if it gets
flakey, there is no one else to take up the slack.

HTH,
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-08-08 9:27 p.m., Scott Hall wrote:
> Update for those of you sadistic-enough to keep reading: the intake
> valve was...loose? Open? The gap was too wide.
> 
> The spec is .003 to .006 intake and exhaust - my smallest?feeler is
> .006. I adjusted it to be tight on .006.?
> 
> The hard start is totally fixed. Starts great now.
> 
> Still won't accelerate. Opening the throttle bogs it and it'll die if
> you don't let off. Curing the starting issue seems to have thrown the
> bogging issue into starker relief.
> 
> Exhaust can is clear. Gas is new. Air filter is clean and freshly oiled
> and removing it entirely changes nothing.
> 
> I am unfamiliar with valves making something not run--my experience is
> either on Ford V-8s or a Triumph 1147 I-4, or Honda or Kawasaki SS
> motorcycle engines, none of which ever had issues with the valves. This
> thing's valves are literally just adjusted with a 5/16" nut--there's no
> locking nut. Is it possible that making the intake or exhaust valve
> tighter or looser could cause something like this? Like should I shoot
> for one end of the spec of another?
> 
> Last thing left would be the coil like Tom suggested. There's no mention
> of it in the owners manual and I don't see it in a parts search so far,
> but I started with Amazon.?
> 
> Seriously. I have built--from rusty blocks--a Ford 289 and 390. A
> Triumph 1147 that came in several Tupperware bins. More rebuilds of
> CBR600 and ZX750 engines than I like to think about.
> 
> A leaf blower engine is threatening to best me. I want to back over it
> with the truck just to make it disappear. I think I'm looking for moral
> support here.
> 
> Worn cylinder or piston? Bad valve entirely? I could dig out a
> compression tester, but there's no spec for it in the manual anyway. I'm
> kinda at a loss here.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 7:40 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com
> <mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I had a leaf blower stop running a few years back due to a bad
>     ignition coil. Have you verified you?ve got spark? I don?t see that
>     specifically mentioned (yes, you did mention the spark plug)
> 
>     ?
>     Tom Coradeschi
>     tjcora at icloud.com <mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>
> 
> 
>     > On 05 Aug 2020, at 5:09 PM, Scott Hall
>     <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
>     <mailto:scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     > The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it
>     pumps using the primer bulb.
>     >
>     > The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see
>     the end of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be
>     that the new fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of
>     the fuel line) could be restrictive. Working against that theory is
>     that it did the same thing with the old fuel filter.
>     >
>     > I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem
>     is...what's left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it.
>     >
>     > It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and
>     exhaust valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition
>     has been developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are
>     slowly coming out of adjustment?
>     >
>     > I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't
>     think of what else it could be.
>     >
>     > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb?
>     Try starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the carb?
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > ----------------
>     >
>     > All the best,
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Al Fuller
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
>     <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Scott Hall
>     > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
>     > To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     > Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Replaced the carb and plug.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
>     application of throttle.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and
>     plug are brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing
>     the same thing. The carb isn't the problem.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before
>     I just toss it?
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
>     >
>     >?
>     >
>     > Scott
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     >
>     > Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     > Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     http://autox.team.net/archive
>     >
>     > Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>     >
> 
>     _______________________________________________
> 
>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>     http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net
> 

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Aug  9 08:13:08 2020
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 10:13:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
In-Reply-To: <969cbc53-4623-6de9-6996-52201d6f7806@comcast.net>
References: <CAK73_u6PjZiB2gJGH8vJzO=SNVKRJwR0z_A9X57=hv_CbOhqgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01df01d66b66$4a31eb30$de95c190$@gmail.com>
 <CAK73_u6uUuNTGOX+Ds_mpJNg7TcU2oUeUxsxbF=Bd4EP8Kp-ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <085800CD-1957-4034-A1A9-61475A6343C6@icloud.com>
 <CAK73_u6qyXk-+9rF5HjyJPVr_5PpeOMTtY8re6t2rTVA8PLAxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <969cbc53-4623-6de9-6996-52201d6f7806@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGMt9MF5OfDvkJ92yxZ_WMP8GeaN3soKXtneK0Otki=CRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

The other day, I finally got around to selling the extra battery powered
string trimmer I have, since I switched all my stuff to the red brand.

Cheapo Black and Decker.  Last used probably 5 years ago?  Maybe more.
It'd just been sitting there with the battery in the charger the whole time.

I clicked the battery into the tool, pulled the trigger, and it spun right
up, just like it always had.

My life is better with less small engines in it.

Mark

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:32 AM Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net> wrote:

> <
> https://cdn.datamanager.arinet.com/image/MTD/d075d134-a7c8-43a8-95d3-3b44c0191f4a/ExtraLarge
> >
> is an exploded parts diagram of the engine. Ignition module (includes
> the coil) is #24; flywheel is #23.
>
> More information is through
> <https://www.troybilt.com/en_US/service-and-parts#diagrams>
> and put in your model number (I picked the first choice for the TB4BP
> because I don't know your exact model number) and poke around for the
> engine parts.
>
> Small engines are just like large engines, but smaller :-). They tend to
> be more finicky because there is only one cylinder and if it gets
> flakey, there is no one else to take up the slack.
>
> HTH,
> Donald.
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>
>
> On 2020-08-08 9:27 p.m., Scott Hall wrote:
> > Update for those of you sadistic-enough to keep reading: the intake
> > valve was...loose? Open? The gap was too wide.
> >
> > The spec is .003 to .006 intake and exhaust - my smallest feeler is
> > .006. I adjusted it to be tight on .006.
> >
> > The hard start is totally fixed. Starts great now.
> >
> > Still won't accelerate. Opening the throttle bogs it and it'll die if
> > you don't let off. Curing the starting issue seems to have thrown the
> > bogging issue into starker relief.
> >
> > Exhaust can is clear. Gas is new. Air filter is clean and freshly oiled
> > and removing it entirely changes nothing.
> >
> > I am unfamiliar with valves making something not run--my experience is
> > either on Ford V-8s or a Triumph 1147 I-4, or Honda or Kawasaki SS
> > motorcycle engines, none of which ever had issues with the valves. This
> > thing's valves are literally just adjusted with a 5/16" nut--there's no
> > locking nut. Is it possible that making the intake or exhaust valve
> > tighter or looser could cause something like this? Like should I shoot
> > for one end of the spec of another?
> >
> > Last thing left would be the coil like Tom suggested. There's no mention
> > of it in the owners manual and I don't see it in a parts search so far,
> > but I started with Amazon.
> >
> > Seriously. I have built--from rusty blocks--a Ford 289 and 390. A
> > Triumph 1147 that came in several Tupperware bins. More rebuilds of
> > CBR600 and ZX750 engines than I like to think about.
> >
> > A leaf blower engine is threatening to best me. I want to back over it
> > with the truck just to make it disappear. I think I'm looking for moral
> > support here.
> >
> > Worn cylinder or piston? Bad valve entirely? I could dig out a
> > compression tester, but there's no spec for it in the manual anyway. I'm
> > kinda at a loss here.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 7:40 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com
> > <mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     I had a leaf blower stop running a few years back due to a bad
> >     ignition coil. Have you verified you?ve got spark? I don?t see that
> >     specifically mentioned (yes, you did mention the spark plug)
> >
> >     ?
> >     Tom Coradeschi
> >     tjcora at icloud.com <mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>
> >
> >
> >     > On 05 Aug 2020, at 5:09 PM, Scott Hall
> >     <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
> >     <mailto:scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     > The carb is getting fuel. I can see it in the fuel lines and it
> >     pumps using the primer bulb.
> >     >
> >     > The symptoms are identical with the old and new carb. I can't see
> >     the end of the fuel line but the only remaining fuel issue could be
> >     that the new fuel filter (a pumice stone-like thing on the end of
> >     the fuel line) could be restrictive. Working against that theory is
> >     that it did the same thing with the old fuel filter.
> >     >
> >     > I don't think the problem is the fuel system. The problem
> >     is...what's left? I swapped the spark plug just to do it.
> >     >
> >     > It's a four-cycle engine. Might the valves (like the intake and
> >     exhaust valves in the head) come out of adjustment? This condition
> >     has been developing over more than a year...perhaps the valves are
> >     slowly coming out of adjustment?
> >     >
> >     > I don't know what conditions un-adjusted valves cause. I can't
> >     think of what else it could be.
> >     >
> >     > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM <alfuller194 at gmail.com
> >     <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >     > Can you confirm whether it is actually getting fuel to the carb?
> >     Try starting it with ether/carb cleaner/gasoline directly to the
> carb?
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > ----------------
> >     >
> >     > All the best,
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > Al Fuller
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> >     <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Scott Hall
> >     > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 4:06 PM
> >     > To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> >     > Subject: [Shop-talk] M*th%&$#c<ing small engines d*mn again
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > Troy Bilt four-stroke backpack leaf blower.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > Replaced the carb and plug.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > No change in symptoms: hard start, choke useless, engine bogs on
> >     application of throttle.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > That sounds like fuel/air to me. That's the carb. The carb and
> >     plug are brand new. The old carb and plug look fine and it's doing
> >     the same thing. The carb isn't the problem.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > I am literally out of ideas. Any idea what to look at next before
> >     I just toss it?
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > Thanks and (*&^*&%&#()_#@&*$&#^&^%.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > Scott
> >     >
> >     > _______________________________________________
> >     >
> >     > Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> >     > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >     > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> >     > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> >     http://autox.team.net/archive
> >     >
> >     > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> >     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> >     >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >
> >     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> >     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >     Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> >     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> >     http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> >     Unsubscribe/Manage:
> >
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net
> >
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>
>
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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Aug  9 08:20:34 2020
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:20:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB31517CFCC1E1EAA2C23A3B57A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a2c9285-7465-ca18-82ad-b3ddcd282d5c@comcast.net>
 <MWHPR06MB31517CFCC1E1EAA2C23A3B57A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supVvPVnirHeLHd8F9NXDryqE9JqeGttxAos-pPifiSTkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:51 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>
> Insulation - BINGO!  Great thought Donald!
>
> I underestimated copper's heat transmission rate.  Using propane, I could not get a 1/8 x 1 inch x 8 inch bar to get to glow with the bottom of the bar clamped in a vice.  I decided to try "Insulating".
>
> I laid a 3 inch long copper bar (typical busbar length) across the teeth of two sections of a coarse hack saw blade clamped off to the side of my vice.  There is almost no contact between the copper bar and these supports, only across the tips of the teeth on the two halves of the hack saw blades, so maybe a dozen pinheads.  With this arrangement and with a partially-dark room, I could just barely see the red glow in the copper. After a quench, the copper bar was soft!

That's a clever way of doing it.  A firebrick is the usual suface to
put things on while they're heated.  For a propane torch, you could
use a regular brick, or a cinderblock. They don't work with a welding
torch, because they explode.  Also, there's a surprising difference in
torch output.  A few years ago, I couldn't get a 1" copper fitting hot
enough to flow solder using the crappy propane torch I'd had for 20
years.   I bought a Bernzomatic TS-8000, at the advise of a plumber,
and it did it with out breaking a sweat.

>
> I now have a method.  Now I have to insure that I can clean up the contact surfaces well without affecting the flatness and I can go forward with softening the real busbars.

Sand paper or emery paper on glass will work well.
>

From JIBrooks at live.com  Sun Aug  9 18:21:55 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 00:21:55 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5supVvPVnirHeLHd8F9NXDryqE9JqeGttxAos-pPifiSTkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YD6qk6ek7x+oM7i_3fdUvKCDhx_eGRNk0oz8jKVLv78Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <79147C10-E74B-4E30-9704-D7413B687602@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB31514D53FEC839A6499F4660A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a2c9285-7465-ca18-82ad-b3ddcd282d5c@comcast.net>
 <MWHPR06MB31517CFCC1E1EAA2C23A3B57A8460@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CA+k5supVvPVnirHeLHd8F9NXDryqE9JqeGttxAos-pPifiSTkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB3151713018706AF14FBD910EA8440@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

David,

Thanks for the heads up on the Bernzomatic TS-8000.  I am using a 20+ year old all brass Bernzomatic head which has never let me down before, but it could be a contributing factor. It does put out a heck of a long beautiful blue flame though.

I chose to support the copper bars on the hack saw blade teeth because there is the least contact between the part and the support to wick away the heat. I was afraid that brickwork would absorb some of the heat.  I did unsuccessfully search my garage for some old refractory blanket. 

Cleaning - Good reminder about sandpaper on glass - Thanks.  I learned the "glass" trick when rebuilding a 1960 Triumph TR3 engine and took the crank thrust bearing down to the minimum specified gap by sanding a mismatched set of standard and oversized backing plates down on a piece of glass and also blueprinted the pump by reducing the pump rotor baseplate clearances on a sandpaper/glass setup. Great tip!

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 7:21 AM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>; shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:51 PM Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>
> Insulation - BINGO!  Great thought Donald!
>
> I underestimated copper's heat transmission rate.  Using propane, I could not get a 1/8 x 1 inch x 8 inch bar to get to glow with the bottom of the bar clamped in a vice.  I decided to try "Insulating".
>
> I laid a 3 inch long copper bar (typical busbar length) across the teeth of two sections of a coarse hack saw blade clamped off to the side of my vice.  There is almost no contact between the copper bar and these supports, only across the tips of the teeth on the two halves of the hack saw blades, so maybe a dozen pinheads.  With this arrangement and with a partially-dark room, I could just barely see the red glow in the copper. After a quench, the copper bar was soft!

That's a clever way of doing it.  A firebrick is the usual suface to put things on while they're heated.  For a propane torch, you could use a regular brick, or a cinderblock. They don't work with a welding torch, because they explode.  Also, there's a surprising difference in torch output.  A few years ago, I couldn't get a 1" copper fitting hot enough to flow solder using the crappy propane torch I'd had for 20
years.   I bought a Bernzomatic TS-8000, at the advise of a plumber,
and it did it with out breaking a sweat.

>
> I now have a method.  Now I have to insure that I can clean up the contact surfaces well without affecting the flatness and I can go forward with softening the real busbars.

Sand paper or emery paper on glass will work well.
>

From tjcora at icloud.com  Sun Aug  9 20:57:58 2020
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 22:57:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <653C2007-C540-4AC6-960A-1BEB78CA827D@icloud.com>
References: <a2cf6dc8-0a20-1e17-16a6-99337e6f0970@comcast.net>
 <653C2007-C540-4AC6-960A-1BEB78CA827D@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <9E6B3AB2-3CE1-486D-96DF-0375B2AE5F3A@icloud.com>

It?s been decades since I?ve dealt with copper busbar, but even the half hard stuff you have (which presumably has been bent, so it?s work hardened slightly) is still pretty darn soft in absolute terms - esp when compared to ferrous materials.

Annealing copper to the temperatures folks have noted will soften it. You can cool it slowly or quickly, it really won?t make any difference (unless you?re impatient, in which case cooling it quickly is always better).

Back to the OP?s note, I would suggest that what you really want in such a situation is the hardest material you can get your hands on. I?m sure that sounds counterintuitive, but follow my train of thought for a bit. What?s I presume you?re looking to do - quite rightly - is to minimize the electrical resistance across the bolted connection. 

The interesting thing about electrical connections like those, is that a large surface area is only of value if it?s properly mechanically preloaded. Even machined surfaces, which appear flat (macroscopically), are microscopically rough and probably have an oxide layer on them to boot. Holm?s work on defining a-spots as the mechanism for electron flow through contacts has been expanded on by others in the field. Most of the math goes over my head these days, but generally speaking, surface prep and preload are key.

Assuming that you?re using steel fasteners and washers, you?ve got a mechanical connection which is about twice as stiff as the conductors, so the number of fasteners is actually going to dominate the situation. In addition, if you back up the fasteners with steel (either plates or washers) to distribute the compressive load, you will be doing a lot to help yourself.  

We used to, routinely, run megampere (pulsed) currents through bolted copper and aluminum busbar connections. Surface prep was important (particularly for aluminum, which forms an oxide layer in nanoseconds on exposure to oxygen). In that regard, Electric Joint Compound (EJC) is critical for aluminum, and quite helpful for copper connections. One lab was all aluminum busbar, and had literally hundreds of bolted connections (it was a fairly sophisticated set of pulse forming modules). Much of this busbar had been through bending processes and we did nothing to it in terms of material properties. What we did do was pay careful attention to the cleaning, EJC application and bolt preload on assembly. We also measured the resistance across each connection and documented it - spot checking it was a semi-annual maintenance check.

Not sure any of the above really adds any true value, but it was fun to pull up some memories of my time as a Lab Rat, early in my career, so...

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 08 Aug 2020, at 10:21 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> 
> Annealing requires slow cooling. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
> 
> Bob
> 
> On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven. 
>> 
>> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...  :-)
>> 
>> best,
>> 
>> doug
>> 
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>> Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Will that get hot enough?
>> 
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>> 
>> Pat Horne 
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the  ?Half-Hard? state and making them ?Dead-Soft? will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble the system.
>> 
>>  
>> I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can?t get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have one.  MAPP gas is hotter, but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
>> 
>>  
>> I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.
>> 
>>  
>> I?d prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
>> 
>>  
>> Thanks in advance,
>> 
>>  
>> Jack
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Aug 10 07:34:39 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:34:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <9E6B3AB2-3CE1-486D-96DF-0375B2AE5F3A@icloud.com>
References: <a2cf6dc8-0a20-1e17-16a6-99337e6f0970@comcast.net>
 <653C2007-C540-4AC6-960A-1BEB78CA827D@icloud.com>
 <9E6B3AB2-3CE1-486D-96DF-0375B2AE5F3A@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YB3MbMZPPHu2A5aJUuPuQy7wUzNdftPv7mP0MZm-St+jw@mail.gmail.com>

That is good info and an important consideration.  But we also have to
consider the application in which it will be used.  For applications
subjected to constant and long term vibration, work hardening in service
can be a real problem.  We saw this on copper bus bars used in aircraft
back in the radial engine days.  There was sufficient vibration transmitted
to every part of those aircraft to work harden just about anything.
Occasionally one of the copper bus bars would crack and begin arcing.  I
certainly hope that an RV would never experience that level of vibration,
but it is going to see more than a stationary application would.  These
days most aircraft bus bars are supplied and used half hard.  But I do know
guys working on warbirds sometimes anneal them.

Interestingly, MIL Spec for aircraft bus bars also required cadmium
plating.  I have never used one of those, but obviously do NOT recommend
trying to anneal one without first mechanically removing the plating.  I
suspect that would be some rather nasty fumes.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:58 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:

> It?s been decades since I?ve dealt with copper busbar, but even the half
> hard stuff you have (which presumably has been bent, so it?s work hardened
> slightly) is still pretty darn soft in absolute terms - esp when compared
> to ferrous materials.
>
> Annealing copper to the temperatures folks have noted will soften it. You
> can cool it slowly or quickly, it really won?t make any difference (unless
> you?re impatient, in which case cooling it quickly is always better).
>
> Back to the OP?s note, I would suggest that what you really want in such a
> situation is the hardest material you can get your hands on. I?m sure that
> sounds counterintuitive, but follow my train of thought for a bit. What?s I
> presume you?re looking to do - quite rightly - is to minimize the
> electrical resistance across the bolted connection.
>
> The interesting thing about electrical connections like those, is that a
> large surface area is only of value if it?s properly mechanically
> preloaded. Even machined surfaces, which appear flat (macroscopically), are
> microscopically rough and probably have an oxide layer on them to boot.
> Holm?s work on defining a-spots as the mechanism for electron flow through
> contacts has been expanded on by others in the field. Most of the math goes
> over my head these days, but generally speaking, surface prep and preload
> are key.
>
> Assuming that you?re using steel fasteners and washers, you?ve got a
> mechanical connection which is about twice as stiff as the conductors, so
> the number of fasteners is actually going to dominate the situation. In
> addition, if you back up the fasteners with steel (either plates or
> washers) to distribute the compressive load, you will be doing a lot to
> help yourself.
>
> We used to, routinely, run megampere (pulsed) currents through bolted
> copper and aluminum busbar connections. Surface prep was important
> (particularly for aluminum, which forms an oxide layer in nanoseconds on
> exposure to oxygen). In that regard, Electric Joint Compound (EJC) is
> critical for aluminum, and quite helpful for copper connections. One lab
> was all aluminum busbar, and had literally hundreds of bolted connections
> (it was a fairly sophisticated set of pulse forming modules). Much of this
> busbar had been through bending processes and we did nothing to it in terms
> of material properties. What we did do was pay careful attention to the
> cleaning, EJC application and bolt preload on assembly. We also measured
> the resistance across each connection and documented it - spot checking it
> was a semi-annual maintenance check.
>
> Not sure any of the above really adds any true value, but it was fun to
> pull up some memories of my time as a Lab Rat, early in my career, so...
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
> > On 08 Aug 2020, at 10:21 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> >
> > I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >
> > Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably,
> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry
> red?'
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> >> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would
> be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven.
> >>
> >> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...
> :-)
> >>
> >> best,
> >>
> >> doug
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> >> Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop,
> body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Will
> that get hot enough?
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?
> >> I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an
> Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The
> busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to anneal them, because the
> copper was purchased in the  ?Half-Hard? state and making them ?Dead-Soft?
> will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when
> I final assemble the system.
> >>
> >>
> >> I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane
> torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can?t
> get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An
> Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have one.  MAPP gas is hotter,
> but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
> >>
> >>
> >> I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the
> self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to
> around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.
> >>
> >>
> >> I?d prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used
> our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs
> (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper
> bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >>
> >>
> >> Jack
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Mon Aug 10 12:43:13 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:43:13 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YB3MbMZPPHu2A5aJUuPuQy7wUzNdftPv7mP0MZm-St+jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cf6dc8-0a20-1e17-16a6-99337e6f0970@comcast.net>
 <653C2007-C540-4AC6-960A-1BEB78CA827D@icloud.com>
 <9E6B3AB2-3CE1-486D-96DF-0375B2AE5F3A@icloud.com>
 <CANuE7YB3MbMZPPHu2A5aJUuPuQy7wUzNdftPv7mP0MZm-St+jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB31514080F6DA68E5AA955186A8440@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hopefully, mounting these busbars on plywood in a built out van will mitigate levels of vibration high enough to work harden the copper!

Thanks John,

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of John Innis
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 6:35 AM
To: Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com>
Cc: Shop Talk <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Annealing Copper bars

That is good info and an important consideration.  But we also have to consider the application in which it will be used.  For applications subjected to constant and long term vibration, work hardening in service can be a real problem.  We saw this on copper bus bars used in aircraft back in the radial engine days.  There was sufficient vibration transmitted to every part of those aircraft to work harden just about anything.  Occasionally one of the copper bus bars would crack and begin arcing.  I certainly hope that an RV would never experience that level of vibration, but it is going to see more than a stationary application would.  These days most aircraft bus bars are supplied and used half hard.  But I do know guys working on warbirds sometimes anneal them.

Interestingly, MIL Spec for aircraft bus bars also required cadmium plating.  I have never used one of those, but obviously do NOT recommend trying to anneal one without first mechanically removing the plating.  I suspect that would be some rather nasty fumes.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:58 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com<mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>> wrote:
It?s been decades since I?ve dealt with copper busbar, but even the half hard stuff you have (which presumably has been bent, so it?s work hardened slightly) is still pretty darn soft in absolute terms - esp when compared to ferrous materials.

Annealing copper to the temperatures folks have noted will soften it. You can cool it slowly or quickly, it really won?t make any difference (unless you?re impatient, in which case cooling it quickly is always better).

Back to the OP?s note, I would suggest that what you really want in such a situation is the hardest material you can get your hands on. I?m sure that sounds counterintuitive, but follow my train of thought for a bit. What?s I presume you?re looking to do - quite rightly - is to minimize the electrical resistance across the bolted connection.

The interesting thing about electrical connections like those, is that a large surface area is only of value if it?s properly mechanically preloaded. Even machined surfaces, which appear flat (macroscopically), are microscopically rough and probably have an oxide layer on them to boot. Holm?s work on defining a-spots as the mechanism for electron flow through contacts has been expanded on by others in the field. Most of the math goes over my head these days, but generally speaking, surface prep and preload are key.

Assuming that you?re using steel fasteners and washers, you?ve got a mechanical connection which is about twice as stiff as the conductors, so the number of fasteners is actually going to dominate the situation. In addition, if you back up the fasteners with steel (either plates or washers) to distribute the compressive load, you will be doing a lot to help yourself.

We used to, routinely, run megampere (pulsed) currents through bolted copper and aluminum busbar connections. Surface prep was important (particularly for aluminum, which forms an oxide layer in nanoseconds on exposure to oxygen). In that regard, Electric Joint Compound (EJC) is critical for aluminum, and quite helpful for copper connections. One lab was all aluminum busbar, and had literally hundreds of bolted connections (it was a fairly sophisticated set of pulse forming modules). Much of this busbar had been through bending processes and we did nothing to it in terms of material properties. What we did do was pay careful attention to the cleaning, EJC application and bolt preload on assembly. We also measured the resistance across each connection and documented it - spot checking it was a semi-annual maintenance check.

Not sure any of the above really adds any true value, but it was fun to pull up some memories of my time as a Lab Rat, early in my career, so...

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com<mailto:tjcora at icloud.com>


> On 08 Aug 2020, at 10:21 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
>
> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
>
> Annealing requires slow cooling.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Pat Horne
> We support Habitat for Humanity
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> ? Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, presumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry red?'
>
> Bob
>
> On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
>> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven.
>>
>> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...  :-)
>>
>> best,
>>
>> doug
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com<mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
>> Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Will that get hot enough?
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Pat Horne
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>
>>
>> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com<mailto:JIBrooks at live.com>> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.  The busbars are already bent to shape, but I?d like to anneal them, because the copper was purchased in the  ?Half-Hard? state and making them ?Dead-Soft? will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble the system.
>>
>>
>> I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propane torch and then allow it to cool.  With the mass of these busbars, I can?t get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane.  An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don?t have one.  MAPP gas is hotter, but I don?t think it?s a lot hotter.
>>
>>
>> I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to around 900?F.  Copper needs 700-1,200?F to anneal, so it should be fine.
>>
>>
>> I?d prefer almost any other solution.  Thoughts?  The last time I used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs (cylinders) of my ?74 Norton motorcycle.  Mrs. Jack was not happy.  Copper bars should be fine as they won?t stink up the house.
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
>

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com


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=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Mon Aug 10 18:14:27 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:14:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>


I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.

Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.

Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Darrell



From nogera at icloud.com  Mon Aug 10 22:25:29 2020
From: nogera at icloud.com (Robert Nogueirao)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:25:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router for the garage
Message-ID: <DEB63C7A-53F7-44FB-8436-9EC853341E1E@icloud.com>

I?d like to use some smart plugs out in the garage so I can turn the fan and vacuum on or off via voice command.   The problem is the wifi router provided by my internet provider is a 2.4 ghz/5ghz router which switches between the two depending on the speed and signal strength.  The two smart plugs I have require 2.4ghz. The result is half the time the don?t work.
Can I simply plug a 2.4ghz router into the port on the 2.4/5 GHz router, give it a name and use that connection in the garage for the smart plugs?   Will the 2.4/5 router see it simply as another device?
It sure would be nice to not have to walk across the garage to turn on the fan or vacuum.
Thanks for any help
Bob Nogueira     



From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Aug 11 07:55:41 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:55:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router for the garage
In-Reply-To: <DEB63C7A-53F7-44FB-8436-9EC853341E1E@icloud.com>
References: <DEB63C7A-53F7-44FB-8436-9EC853341E1E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <475528a5-4fda-bab3-c4c6-60da45ccf889@comcast.net>

I just installed a wi-fi extender so I could control a garage door 
opener. It connects to either 2.4 and 5.0 devices (I think the opener is 
2.4 only but, not sure):

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NR2VMNC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On 8/10/2020 9:25 PM, Robert Nogueirao wrote:
> I?d like to use some smart plugs out in the garage so I can turn the fan and vacuum on or off via voice command.   The problem is the wifi router provided by my internet provider is a 2.4 ghz/5ghz router which switches between the two depending on the speed and signal strength.  The two smart plugs I have require 2.4ghz. The result is half the time the don?t work.
> Can I simply plug a 2.4ghz router into the port on the 2.4/5 GHz router, give it a name and use that connection in the garage for the smart plugs?   Will the 2.4/5 router see it simply as another device?
> It sure would be nice to not have to walk across the garage to turn on the fan or vacuum.
> Thanks for any help
> Bob Nogueira
>
>
>


From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 11 08:20:51 2020
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:20:51 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router for the garage
In-Reply-To: <475528a5-4fda-bab3-c4c6-60da45ccf889@comcast.net>
References: <DEB63C7A-53F7-44FB-8436-9EC853341E1E@icloud.com>,
 <475528a5-4fda-bab3-c4c6-60da45ccf889@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB431384EFD5DD391A91B50B039A450@DM6PR11MB4313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Your wifi router may give you the option of creating separate 2.4G and 5G SSIDs (basically the network name you see broadcasting). I do this on an Asus RT-AC86U. Typically the 2.4G freq provides more range, and the 5G is faster under ideal conditions.  Do this, and then config your plug to connect to the 2.4 network.

If not, you can attach a 2.4G Wifi access point to the Wifi router and it should do what you need. Just don't put the access point in a router mode, or you may have connectivity issues. It should have an "access point" mode, or something appropriate to just "extend" the local network.

I use a Ubiquiti UAP-AC-M-US Unifi Mesh Access Point, which is weather-rated, so I can provide wifi to my garage and backyard.

PJ

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 9:55 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Router for the garage

I just installed a wi-fi extender so I could control a garage door
opener. It connects to either 2.4 and 5.0 devices (I think the opener is
2.4 only but, not sure):

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NR2VMNC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On 8/10/2020 9:25 PM, Robert Nogueirao wrote:
> I?d like to use some smart plugs out in the garage so I can turn the fan and vacuum on or off via voice command.   The problem is the wifi router provided by my internet provider is a 2.4 ghz/5ghz router which switches between the two depending on the speed and signal strength.  The two smart plugs I have require 2.4ghz. The result is half the time the don?t work.
> Can I simply plug a 2.4ghz router into the port on the 2.4/5 GHz router, give it a name and use that connection in the garage for the smart plugs?   Will the 2.4/5 router see it simply as another device?
> It sure would be nice to not have to walk across the garage to turn on the fan or vacuum.
> Thanks for any help
> Bob Nogueira
>
>
>

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 11 14:20:54 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:20:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>

What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?

If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.

----------------
All the best,

Al Fuller

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.

Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.

Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Darrell


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 11 14:25:54 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:25:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router for the garage
In-Reply-To: <DEB63C7A-53F7-44FB-8436-9EC853341E1E@icloud.com>
References: <DEB63C7A-53F7-44FB-8436-9EC853341E1E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <00da01d6701d$9d78f200$d86ad600$@gmail.com>

On the 2.4/5 Ghz router I have [Arris brand], you can give the 2.4 a different SSID from the SSID on the 5 Ghz band. If you give them separate names, the smart plugs should only connect to the 2.4 side, and not drop.  

A possible downside is if you have a mobile phone or other Wi-Fi client that usually goes between the two, you may have to set it up on both, or on the one you want it to connect to...

----------------
All the best,

Al Fuller

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Robert Nogueirao
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 12:25 AM
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router for the garage

I?d like to use some smart plugs out in the garage so I can turn the fan and vacuum on or off via voice command.   The problem is the wifi router provided by my internet provider is a 2.4 ghz/5ghz router which switches between the two depending on the speed and signal strength.  The two smart plugs I have require 2.4ghz. The result is half the time the don?t work.
Can I simply plug a 2.4ghz router into the port on the 2.4/5 GHz router, give it a name and use that connection in the garage for the smart plugs?   Will the 2.4/5 router see it simply as another device?
It sure would be nice to not have to walk across the garage to turn on the fan or vacuum.
Thanks for any help
Bob Nogueira     


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From mark at bradakis.com  Tue Aug 11 18:06:39 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:06:39 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Weber Kettle rotisserie?
Message-ID: <1574e407-6f06-6339-5e38-b3232e9c416e@bradakis.com>

I really like my 22" Weber Kettle charcoal grill. Lately I've been 
wondering whether or not it would be worth it to get a rotisserie 
adapter for it? It's basically a ring the size of the kettle that fits 
on top of it, and the lid fits on top of that. It has a big skewer, a 
couple of rotisserie forks and an electric motor.

I've made it to this point in my grilling life without one, is it 
actually worth spending money on it? Any real life experience?

https://youtu.be/ozzUParaBlk

mjb.



From darrellw360 at mac.com  Tue Aug 11 18:07:29 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:07:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
 <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>


Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.  I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.

The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).  And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).

My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com> <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
> 
> If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
> 
> ----------------
> All the best,
> 
> Al Fuller
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
> 
> Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
> 
> Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com
> 
> 


From dave1massey at cs.com  Tue Aug 11 19:00:48 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 01:00:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
 <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
 <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
Message-ID: <618511754.436142.1597194048165@mail.yahoo.com>

 What are your plans for getting rid of the water?? Most dryers have some sort of drain, either float actuated or a timer/solenoid valve set-up.? But will the transmission coolers self-drain?
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com>
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.? I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.

The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).? And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).

My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com> <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
> 
> If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
> 
> ----------------
> All the best,
> 
> Al Fuller
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.? I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.? It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
> 
> Now I?m researching after-coolers.? I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.? I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.? So I may install it on the outflow.? I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
> 
> Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com
> 
> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Tue Aug 11 19:06:40 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:06:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <618511754.436142.1597194048165@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
 <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
 <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
 <618511754.436142.1597194048165@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <883A49BC-76C6-420C-A125-34E2EDC111AA@mac.com>


I plan to have the output of the radiator exit down, with a tee.  I?m going to put a drip leg, then take the air out of the side of the tee.  That will feed into my filter/moisture separator, hopefully the liquid will run down into the drip leg.

I?ll post pictures and results when I get it all plumbed.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:00 PM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
> 
> What are your plans for getting rid of the water?  Most dryers have some sort of drain, either float actuated or a timer/solenoid valve set-up.  But will the transmission coolers self-drain?
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com>
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 7:07 pm
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.  I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.
> 
> The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).  And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).
> 
> My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.
> 
> -Darrell
> 
> > On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> <alfuller194 at gmail.com <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
> > 
> > If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
> > 
> > ----------------
> > All the best,
> > 
> > Al Fuller
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
> > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
> > To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> > 
> > 
> > I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
> > 
> > Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
> > 
> > Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Darrell
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > 
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> > 
> > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com>
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com>
> 

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From dave1massey at cs.com  Tue Aug 11 19:24:42 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 01:24:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <883A49BC-76C6-420C-A125-34E2EDC111AA@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
 <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
 <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
 <618511754.436142.1597194048165@mail.yahoo.com>
 <883A49BC-76C6-420C-A125-34E2EDC111AA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1228583769.447792.1597195482598@mail.yahoo.com>

 Cool.? You'll need to drain the drip leg periodically, it will fill up pretty quickly.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com>
To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>
Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


I plan to have the output of the radiator exit down, with a tee. ?I?m going to put a drip leg, then take the air out of the side of the tee. ?That will feed into my filter/moisture separator, hopefully the liquid will run down into the drip leg.
I?ll post pictures and results when I get it all plumbed.
-Darrell


On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:00 PM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
 What are your plans for getting rid of the water?? Most dryers have some sort of drain, either float actuated or a timer/solenoid valve set-up.? But will the transmission coolers self-drain?
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com>
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.? I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.

The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).? And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).

My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com> <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
> 
> If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
> 
> ----------------
> All the best,
> 
> Al Fuller
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.? I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.? It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
> 
> Now I?m researching after-coolers.? I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.? I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.? So I may install it on the outflow.? I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
> 
> Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation? $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com
> 
> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Tue Aug 11 20:12:56 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:12:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <1228583769.447792.1597195482598@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
 <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
 <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
 <618511754.436142.1597194048165@mail.yahoo.com>
 <883A49BC-76C6-420C-A125-34E2EDC111AA@mac.com>
 <1228583769.447792.1597195482598@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C8AB0FF5-017A-4DA8-84C6-720FCA69C778@mac.com>


Yes, I?m planning to put all of the things to drain in the same area, so hopefully I?ll do that regularly.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:24 PM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
> 
> Cool.  You'll need to drain the drip leg periodically, it will fill up pretty quickly.
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com>
> To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>
> Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 8:06 pm
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> I plan to have the output of the radiator exit down, with a tee.  I?m going to put a drip leg, then take the air out of the side of the tee.  That will feed into my filter/moisture separator, hopefully the liquid will run down into the drip leg.
> 
> I?ll post pictures and results when I get it all plumbed.
> 
> -Darrell
> 
>> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:00 PM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com <mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> What are your plans for getting rid of the water?  Most dryers have some sort of drain, either float actuated or a timer/solenoid valve set-up.  But will the transmission coolers self-drain?
>> 
>> Dave 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com <mailto:darrellw360 at mac.com>>
>> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 7:07 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.  I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.
>> 
>> The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).  And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).
>> 
>> My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.
>> 
>> -Darrell
>> 
>> > On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> <alfuller194 at gmail.com <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
>> > 
>> > If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
>> > 
>> > ----------------
>> > All the best,
>> > 
>> > Al Fuller
>> > 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
>> > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
>> > To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>> > 
>> > 
>> > I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
>> > 
>> > Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
>> > 
>> > Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
>> > 
>> > Thanks,
>> > Darrell
>> > 
>> > 
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > 
>> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>> > 
>> > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com>
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com>
>> 
> 

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From maynerdfamily at msn.com  Tue Aug 11 20:22:32 2020
From: maynerdfamily at msn.com (Brian and Wendy Warrick)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:22:32 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <C8AB0FF5-017A-4DA8-84C6-720FCA69C778@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
 <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
 <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
 <618511754.436142.1597194048165@mail.yahoo.com>
 <883A49BC-76C6-420C-A125-34E2EDC111AA@mac.com>
 <1228583769.447792.1597195482598@mail.yahoo.com>,
 <C8AB0FF5-017A-4DA8-84C6-720FCA69C778@mac.com>
Message-ID: <MW2PR07MB3978706F52305064B7C1B50DBB420@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

I don't know if you use one of the automatic drains, but if you do and your transmission cooler is near the compressor, you could plumb the drip leg and the compressor tank drain together and the automatic drain would take care of them both.

Brian
Nampa, ID

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 8:12 PM
To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>
Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


Yes, I?m planning to put all of the things to drain in the same area, so hopefully I?ll do that regularly.

-Darrell

On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:24 PM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com<mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>> wrote:

Cool.  You'll need to drain the drip leg periodically, it will fill up pretty quickly.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com<mailto:darrellw360 at mac.com>>
To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com<mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>>
Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> <Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


I plan to have the output of the radiator exit down, with a tee.  I?m going to put a drip leg, then take the air out of the side of the tee.  That will feed into my filter/moisture separator, hopefully the liquid will run down into the drip leg.

I?ll post pictures and results when I get it all plumbed.

-Darrell

On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:00 PM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com<mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>> wrote:

What are your plans for getting rid of the water?  Most dryers have some sort of drain, either float actuated or a timer/solenoid valve set-up.  But will the transmission coolers self-drain?

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com<mailto:darrellw360 at mac.com>>
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.  I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.

The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).  And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).

My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com<mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> <alfuller194 at gmail.com<mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
>
> If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
>
> ----------------
> All the best,
>
> Al Fuller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>
>
> I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
>
> Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
>
> Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
> Darrell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com
>
>

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed Aug 12 05:47:12 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:47:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Weber Kettle rotisserie?
In-Reply-To: <1574e407-6f06-6339-5e38-b3232e9c416e@bradakis.com>
References: <1574e407-6f06-6339-5e38-b3232e9c416e@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <223024793.573465.1597232832491@mail.yahoo.com>

 I'm on my second 22 inch Weber in 49 years.? Those things are bullet proof.? 

I guess it is a question of how often you will use it.? If the answer is "infrequently" then I think you can get similar results grilling over indirect heat with frequent turning.? It is more work but not too bad.
But then, there is always the cool factor.? ;-)
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com>
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2020 7:06 pm
Subject: [Shop-talk] Weber Kettle rotisserie?

I really like my 22" Weber Kettle charcoal grill. Lately I've been 
wondering whether or not it would be worth it to get a rotisserie 
adapter for it? It's basically a ring the size of the kettle that fits 
on top of it, and the lid fits on top of that. It has a big skewer, a 
couple of rotisserie forks and an electric motor.

I've made it to this point in my grilling life without one, is it 
actually worth spending money on it? Any real life experience?

https://youtu.be/ozzUParaBlk

mjb.


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From eric at megageek.com  Wed Aug 12 05:59:47 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:59:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to team.net...
Message-ID: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>

Did anyone else get this phishing message?


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
----- Forwarded by Eric Petrevich/Megageek on 08/12/2020 07:59 -----

From:   Linda Donley <linda at gadgetviper.net>
To:     Eric <eric at megageek.com>
Date:   08/11/2020 17:14
Subject:        Question on multiple contributions to team.net...



Hi Eric, 

I'm Linda from Gadget Viper! Your site, team.net, has sparked my interest 
to contribute articles and resources in the various topics that you cover. 
I especially enjoyed one of your latest posts, and therefore decided to 
reach out to you. 

I write on a broad range of topics and depending on what works best for 
you, I am definitely open to proposing and discussing ideal content titles 
that will benefit your site. If this sounds appealing to you, I?d love to 
have a conversation about how we could make it work.

On that note, a long term partnership is the ideal goal in mind and would 
love to hear back from you Eric!

Thanks gratefully,
Linda


Don't want emails from us anymore? Reply to this email with the word 
"UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. 
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From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Aug 12 06:44:52 2020
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric Russell)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:44:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to
 team.net...
In-Reply-To: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <50a16ffc-3b3c-02a4-dfcf-5f60f5d2da6f@mebtel.net>

Not I.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

On 8/12/2020 7:59 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Did anyone else get this phishing message?

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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed Aug 12 06:46:12 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:46:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to
 team.net...
In-Reply-To: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <47485996-E167-44FD-AE40-AC6440A00D83@icloud.com>

Nope

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 12, 2020, at 7:00 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

?Did anyone else get this phishing message? 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt? 
----- Forwarded by Eric Petrevich/Megageek on 08/12/2020 07:59 ----- 

From:        Linda Donley <linda at gadgetviper.net> 
To:        Eric <eric at megageek.com> 
Date:        08/11/2020 17:14 
Subject:        Question on multiple contributions to team.net... 



Hi Eric, 

I'm Linda from Gadget Viper! Your site, team.net, has sparked my interest to contribute articles and resources in the various topics that you cover. I especially enjoyed one of your latest posts, and therefore decided to reach out to you. 

I write on a broad range of topics and depending on what works best for you, I am definitely open to proposing and discussing ideal content titles that will benefit your site. If this sounds appealing to you, I?d love to have a conversation about how we could make it work.

On that note, a long term partnership is the ideal goal in mind and would love to hear back from you Eric!

Thanks gratefully,
Linda


Don't want emails from us anymore? Reply to this email with the word "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. _______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From rrochlin at comcast.net  Wed Aug 12 07:13:22 2020
From: rrochlin at comcast.net (Rochlin Robert)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:13:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on multiple contributions to team.net...
In-Reply-To: <50a16ffc-3b3c-02a4-dfcf-5f60f5d2da6f@mebtel.net>
References: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
 <50a16ffc-3b3c-02a4-dfcf-5f60f5d2da6f@mebtel.net>
Message-ID: <CAA93433-0B08-4EAD-BDFD-1079DD21E70B@comcast.net>

I did not receive it either.
	Bob

> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:44 AM, Eric Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net> wrote:
> 
> Not I. 
> 
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC 
> 
> On 8/12/2020 7:59 AM, eric at megageek.com <mailto:eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>> Did anyone else get this phishing message? 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rrochlin at comcast.net
> 

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From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Aug 12 07:24:00 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:24:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to
 team.net...
In-Reply-To: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <358c7d4b-dcba-d99c-7310-20885cc1322a@bradakis.com>

As the Team Net guy, I get messages like that on a regular basis.? Like 
maybe two hundred per day.? Or three.? I could do some actual counts, 
but that might discourage me, and tempt me to pull the plug.

It would be nice if "multiple contributions to team.net" meant multiple 
monetary contributions via the donate link, but that ain't gonna happen!

mjb.



From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed Aug 12 07:30:41 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:30:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to
 team.net...
In-Reply-To: <358c7d4b-dcba-d99c-7310-20885cc1322a@bradakis.com>
References: <358c7d4b-dcba-d99c-7310-20885cc1322a@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <F56E2558-C243-49EC-AC00-F46F5C82A27D@icloud.com>

Mark. I feel for you as the point guy for our lists. I don?t mind supporting your work yearly but I don?t seem to be able to remember when that date is reached. Would it be difficult to send yearly reminders to those who do support your work? Possibly with an opt out for those who don?t want it. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:25 AM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:

?As the Team Net guy, I get messages like that on a regular basis.  Like maybe two hundred per day.  Or three.  I could do some actual counts, but that might discourage me, and tempt me to pull the plug.

It would be nice if "multiple contributions to team.net" meant multiple monetary contributions via the donate link, but that ain't gonna happen!

mjb.


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Aug 12 08:34:23 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:34:23 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to
 team.net...
In-Reply-To: <F56E2558-C243-49EC-AC00-F46F5C82A27D@icloud.com>
References: <358c7d4b-dcba-d99c-7310-20885cc1322a@bradakis.com>
 <F56E2558-C243-49EC-AC00-F46F5C82A27D@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <7bd49b5e-51c0-0055-c0d8-fe2654113cbb@bradakis.com>

On 8/12/20 7:30 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Mark. I feel for you as the point guy for our lists. I don?t mind supporting your work yearly but I don?t seem to be able to remember when that date is reached. Would it be difficult to send yearly reminders to those who do support your work? Possibly with an opt out for those who don?t want it.

Back in the early days when having a high speed network connection at 
home was something exotic and expensive, I did fund drives every year.? 
These days, just about everybody and their cats have a connection, no 
big deal.? The fund drives usually came in April, as April 11th, 1991 
was the date that the team.net domain was registered. I do usually send 
out a "Happy Birthday to us" message on that date, but asking for 
financial support is not really a part of that anymore.? There are links 
to a donate page sent in every message, maybe I could add something 
about it in the monthly reminders sent out on the 5th of every month.? 
But I doubt that many people actually read those messages.

Back then Team.Net was about the only show in town, keeping it all 
running took me 15 - 20 hours a week. Getting financial contributions 
back then helped make it worth my while.? I often wonder just how many 
hours over the years I have actually put in, and how much of the 
donations ended up in my pocket versus paying the ISP bill, hardware 
upgrades and such.? Probably something like 2.6 cents per hour for the 
job of Team.Net admin.? But the pay scale is not important, I do it 
because I want to, because I want to assist in keeping old British cars, 
Datsun roadsters, curved dash Oldsmobiles on the road, bringing joy to 
people's lives in whatever way I can.? And I hope to keep doing so for 
years to come.

But it is always nice if someone says? "Thanks, Mark, let me buy you a 
beer."

mjb.



From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 08:48:25 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:48:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to
 team.net...
In-Reply-To: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1CE8B320.6815F231-ON852585C2.0041D9A1-852585C2.0041E7A3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <004c01d670b7$a283a1b0$e78ae510$@gmail.com>

Nope ? first I have heard of it?

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 8:00 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Question on multiple contributions to team.net...

 

Did anyone else get this phishing message? 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt? 
----- Forwarded by Eric Petrevich/Megageek on 08/12/2020 07:59 ----- 

From:        Linda Donley <linda at gadgetviper.net <mailto:linda at gadgetviper.net> > 
To:        Eric <eric at megageek.com <mailto:eric at megageek.com> > 
Date:        08/11/2020 17:14 
Subject:        Question on multiple contributions to team.net... 

  _____  




Hi Eric, 

I'm Linda from Gadget Viper! Your site, team.net, has sparked my interest to contribute articles and resources in the various topics that you cover. I especially enjoyed one of your latest posts, and therefore decided to reach out to you. 

I write on a broad range of topics and depending on what works best for you, I am definitely open to proposing and discussing ideal content titles that will benefit your site. If this sounds appealing to you, I?d love to have a conversation about how we could make it work.

On that note, a long term partnership is the ideal goal in mind and would love to hear back from you Eric!

Thanks gratefully,
Linda


Don't want emails from us anymore? Reply to this email with the word "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. 

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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 08:59:32 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:59:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
References: <129E1939-7C57-47B5-B41D-A2D8A4F29469@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgbnpuo=pgLXuC5H7Zd+ZXVt2A765+=toyTn=DPfwjMDeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4530F88673DA4F1595A3BCC47A994819@DESKTOPTOA1F5G>
 <B5A61710-854A-4B9F-A805-1149BA5C08B2@mac.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPDNQtYfo4YBLR4Zcgm31fXTT1i+++MFsjWhqoGPLGLKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D67E3B4-59F7-43E8-96B8-4E58BD7BFAD0@mac.com>
 <00d901d6701c$eaa67120$bff35360$@gmail.com>
 <F1BBA054-CD83-4014-8DFB-FCCBAD714ED3@mac.com>
Message-ID: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>

It does make sense to use a radiator of some kind to cool the air so the water vapor condenses. You might want to investigate whether passive cooling will be enough, or whether you will need to have a fan moving air across the radiator. Obviously, if it heat sinks as it absorbs the heat from the compressed air it will lose efficiency in condensing water out of the air.

----------------
All the best,

Al Fuller

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 8:07 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.  I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.

The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).  And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).

My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com> <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
> 
> If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
> 
> ----------------
> All the best,
> 
> Al Fuller
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of 
> Darrell Walker
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
> 
> Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
> 
> Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation  
> $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com
> 
> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com



From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed Aug 12 09:08:17 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:08:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>

I?d respond to the OP but he?ll get a copy of this. 

I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 12, 2020, at 10:02 AM, alfuller194 at gmail.com wrote:

?It does make sense to use a radiator of some kind to cool the air so the water vapor condenses. You might want to investigate whether passive cooling will be enough, or whether you will need to have a fan moving air across the radiator. Obviously, if it heat sinks as it absorbs the heat from the compressed air it will lose efficiency in condensing water out of the air.

----------------
All the best,

Al Fuller

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Darrell Walker
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 8:07 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor


Yes, the objective is to reduce moisture.  I don?t have a lot of space for long runs of iron pipe, so I?m looking at using a transmission radiator.

The compressor arrived today (one advantage of getting it from Lowes, they had some in stock).  And the delivery guys even put it into the garage for me (gave them a nice tip since I didn?t have to drag it up the driveway).

My wife?s reaction was similar to what someone else reported, ?that?s big?.

-Darrell

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <alfuller194 at gmail.com> <alfuller194 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What are you trying to accomplish with the aftercooler?
> 
> If it is to get water/vapor out of the compressed air, consider using iron pipe for distribution. The pipe should cool down the water vaper and allow it to condense and flow to a low point for removal.
> 
> ----------------
> All the best,
> 
> Al Fuller
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of 
> Darrell Walker
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 8:14 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> I thought I?d update you all on my compressor search.  I purchased the Kobalt 60 gallon, two-stage from Lowe?s.  It mostly came down to the weight of the Quincy unit, not sure I could handle a nearly 500 lb compressor, and getting anyone to help is problematic.
> 
> Now I?m researching after-coolers.  I?ve found several ideal using a transmission cooler.  I understand that putting it between the compressor and the tank is most effective, but I?m a little hesitant to start re-plumbing my brand new compressor.  So I may install it on the outflow.  I?ve seen other designs using a series of pipe loops, but space is a bit of concern, so the transmission cooler with a fan to cool is more inline with what I can install.
> 
> Any thoughts or experience on aftercoolers would be appreciated!
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation  
> $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com
> 
> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/alfuller194 at gmail.com


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 09:12:09 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:12:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:

>
> I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler
> because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans
> cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi.


An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.  It even has
"condenser" in the name....
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed Aug 12 09:26:54 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:26:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>

 That's a clever idea.? It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.? But it could restrict air flow.? Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.? It all depends on what air tools you are using.? It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.? But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor



On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:


I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi. 

An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.? It even has "condenser" in the name....?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 09:34:05 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:34:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Weber Kettle rotisserie?
In-Reply-To: <223024793.573465.1597232832491@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1574e407-6f06-6339-5e38-b3232e9c416e@bradakis.com>
 <223024793.573465.1597232832491@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COJc5NTkfBfytO1CH4btMQRsw2MaA_SrBWVHKkjaXu32w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 7:47 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

> I'm on my second 22 inch Weber in 49 years.  Those things are bullet
> proof.
>

I've never ruined a Smokey Joe, just had them stolen.


> I guess it is a question of how often you will use it.  If the answer is
> "infrequently" then I think you can get similar results grilling over
> indirect heat with frequent turning.  It is more work but not too bad.
>

I thought the whole point of outdoor cooking is to sit and watch the fire
while drinking beer and occasionally flipping something over.   If you're
sitting in the air conditioning, watching your food on a wireless
thermometer, you ain't doing it right.
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 09:35:30 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:35:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>

Good point.  I hadn't thought of air flow rate.  Hook several in parallel?

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

> That's a clever idea.  It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for
> the pressure.  But it could restrict air flow.  Most are just a long,
> serpentine tube with fins.  It all depends on what air tools you are
> using.  It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through
> it.  But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and
> save the dry air for the tools that need it.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>
>
> I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler
> because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans
> cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi.
>
>
> An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.  It even has
> "condenser" in the name....
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com
>
>
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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Wed Aug 12 09:53:41 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:53:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>


The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design, and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI.  It says it has a 29,200 BTU rating:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274

I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.

Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.

https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/ <https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/>


-Darrell


> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Good point.  I hadn't thought of air flow rate.  Hook several in parallel?
> 
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com <mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>> wrote:
> That's a clever idea.  It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.  But it could restrict air flow.  Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.  It all depends on what air tools you are using.  It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.  But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com <mailto:fishplate at gmail.com>>
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> <Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
> Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com <mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
> 
> I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi.
> 
> An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.  It even has "condenser" in the name.... 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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> 
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> 

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From arvidj999 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 10:16:56 2020
From: arvidj999 at gmail.com (Arvid)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:16:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
Message-ID: <94a55cac-e8ab-4ace-e184-0d8951dfdcd9@gmail.com>

I would highly recommend it be between the compressor and the tank.

My, possibly faulty, logic.

The air coming from the compressor is really hot. This would enhance the differential temperature between the radiator and the cooling air would be at it's largest point. It would seem to make the radiator work as efficiently as possible. In my case, 175 psi two stage, the input is over 200f and the output seems to be close to 100f. The fan is blowing 70f room air over a 200f+ radiator.

The air would now be cooler as it enters the tank and hopefully most of the condensation that is going to take place would be in the tank. Great for one-place-to-drain.

No matter what the air will also cool while it is in the tank. This is a good thing for condensation but it also means that, if the radiator comes after the tank, the radiator will see considerably lower incoming air temperatures. On my compressor the air coming out of the tank is often room temperature and is seldom more than 10 degrees above room temperature. Therefore a radiator after the tank would not have a huge differential to work with. At best it would be blowing 70f air over a 90f radiator. Plus there is now need to have a local drain for the condensation it might produce.

My thought is between the compressor and the tank, a condensate filter\water separator and additional filters after the tank and then drains below coupling on the drops.

Just my thought,

Arvid

On 8/12/20 10:53 AM, Darrell Walker wrote:
>
> The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design, and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI. ?It says it has a?29,200 BTU rating:
>
> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274
>
> I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.
>
> Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.
>
> https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/
>
>
> -Darrell
>
>
>> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Good point.? I hadn't thought of air flow rate.? Hook several in parallel?
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com <mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     That's a clever idea.? It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.? But it could restrict air flow.? Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.? It all depends on what air tools you are using.? It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.? But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
>>
>>     Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com <mailto:fishplate at gmail.com>>
>>     To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> <Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
>>     Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
>>     Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com <mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi. 
>>
>>
>>     An air conditioner condenser would probably be better. It even has "condenser" in the name....
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
>>     Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>     Suggested annual donation? $12.96
>>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>>     Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation ?$12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Wed Aug 12 10:21:05 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:21:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <94a55cac-e8ab-4ace-e184-0d8951dfdcd9@gmail.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
 <94a55cac-e8ab-4ace-e184-0d8951dfdcd9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86E46F69-1C62-42F0-BFC1-B25C242A1B25@mac.com>


HI Arvid,

I agree that between the compressor and tank is better, I?m just not willing to start re-plumbing a new compressor (though it does look pretty straight forward to do).  But if it isn?t effective where I?m putting it, I will certainly consider it.

-Darrell

> On Aug 12, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Arvid <arvidj999 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I would highly recommend it be between the compressor and the tank.
> 
> My, possibly faulty, logic.
> 
> The air coming from the compressor is really hot. This would enhance the differential temperature between the radiator and the cooling air would be at it's largest point. It would seem to make the radiator work as efficiently as possible. In my case, 175 psi two stage, the input is over 200f and the output seems to be close to 100f. The fan is blowing 70f room air over a 200f+ radiator.
> 
> The air would now be cooler as it enters the tank and hopefully most of the condensation that is going to take place would be in the tank. Great for one-place-to-drain.
> 
> No matter what the air will also cool while it is in the tank. This is a good thing for condensation but it also means that, if the radiator comes after the tank, the radiator will see considerably lower incoming air temperatures. On my compressor the air coming out of the tank is often room temperature and is seldom more than 10 degrees above room temperature. Therefore a radiator after the tank would not have a huge differential to work with. At best it would be blowing 70f air over a 90f radiator. Plus there is now need to have a local drain for the condensation it might produce.
> 
> My thought is between the compressor and the tank, a condensate filter\water separator and additional filters after the tank and then drains below coupling on the drops.
> 
> Just my thought,
> 
> Arvid
> 
> On 8/12/20 10:53 AM, Darrell Walker wrote:
>> 
>> The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design, and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI.  It says it has a 29,200 BTU rating:
>> 
>> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274 <https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274>
>> 
>> I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.
>> 
>> Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.
>> 
>> https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/ <https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/>
>> 
>> 
>> -Darrell
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> <mailto:fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Good point.  I hadn't thought of air flow rate.  Hook several in parallel?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com <mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>> wrote:
>>> That's a clever idea.  It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.  But it could restrict air flow.  Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.  It all depends on what air tools you are using.  It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.  But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
>>> 
>>> Dave 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com <mailto:fishplate at gmail.com>>
>>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> <Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
>>> Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
>>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com <mailto:patintexas at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi.
>>> 
>>> An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.  It even has "condenser" in the name.... 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk>http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com>
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999 at gmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999 at gmail.com>
>> 

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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 10:24:47 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:24:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgYtkFcnXW27xRHNh28qFT4YTU1Um=69MW8p0yboUi61jQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Darrell,

IMHO, I would recommend against your planned course of action.

   1. All coolers on air compressors are placed between the pump and the
   tank where the air is the hottest and the heat transfer will be the
   greatest.. In your design, most of the heat will be absorbed by the tank
   before it gets to the radiator. It will not be an efficient heat transfer
   located after the tank.
   2. I also believe that putting it on the tank outlet will restrict your
   flow as that is where you need the maximum flow. You can take advantage of
   the "surge capacity" of the tank which is only limited by the size of the
   piping from the outlet of the tank to the air device you are using. Placing
   a cooler between the tank and the air device could limit the flow of the
   tank to the device.
   3. If you put it between the pump and the tank, the cooler only needs to
   flow at the capacity of the pump (e.g., 10CFM). You potentially could get
   100X that flow out of the stored capacity of the tank if the piping is
   large enough. You do not want any restriction between the tank and your air
   devices
   4. Whatever you choose to do for a heat exchanger, I sincerely believe
   that it will not be effective, and it probably will diminish the overall
   performance of your system, if you do not put it between the pump and the
   tank.

IMHO

doug

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 8:53 AM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:

>
> The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design,
> and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI.  It says it has a 29,200 BTU rating:
>
> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274
>
> I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.
>
> Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor
> and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.
>
>
> https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/
>
>
> -Darrell
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good point.  I hadn't thought of air flow rate.  Hook several in parallel?
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
>
>> That's a clever idea.  It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for
>> the pressure.  But it could restrict air flow.  Most are just a long,
>> serpentine tube with fins.  It all depends on what air tools you are
>> using.  It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through
>> it.  But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and
>> save the dry air for the tools that need it.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler
>> because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans
>> cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi.
>>
>>
>> An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.  It even has
>> "condenser" in the name....
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
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From marka at maracing.com  Wed Aug 12 10:30:27 2020
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:30:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

Are you painting or in a super high humidity environment or something?  My
experience with compressors is that mostly I can remember to drain the tank
every now and then and it all "just works" without any elaborate coolers /
separators / whatever.

YMMV.

Mark

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:53 AM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:

>
> The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design,
> and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI.  It says it has a 29,200 BTU rating:
>
> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274
>
> I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.
>
> Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor
> and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.
>
>
> https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/
>
>
> -Darrell
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good point.  I hadn't thought of air flow rate.  Hook several in parallel?
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
>
>> That's a clever idea.  It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for
>> the pressure.  But it could restrict air flow.  Most are just a long,
>> serpentine tube with fins.  It all depends on what air tools you are
>> using.  It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through
>> it.  But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and
>> save the dry air for the tools that need it.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler
>> because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans
>> cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi.
>>
>>
>> An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.  It even has
>> "condenser" in the name....
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed Aug 12 10:33:53 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:33:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Weber Kettle rotisserie?
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COJc5NTkfBfytO1CH4btMQRsw2MaA_SrBWVHKkjaXu32w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1574e407-6f06-6339-5e38-b3232e9c416e@bradakis.com>
 <223024793.573465.1597232832491@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7COJc5NTkfBfytO1CH4btMQRsw2MaA_SrBWVHKkjaXu32w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1808827480.686489.1597250033918@mail.yahoo.com>

 I replaced mine only because I wanted the new features (specifically the ash removal).
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:34 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Weber Kettle rotisserie?



On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 7:47 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

 I'm on my second 22 inch Weber in 49 years.? Those things are bullet proof.? 


I've never ruined a Smokey Joe, just had them stolen.?
I guess it is a question of how often you will use it.? If the answer is "infrequently" then I think you can get similar results grilling over indirect heat with frequent turning.? It is more work but not too bad.


I thought the whole point of outdoor cooking is to sit and watch the fire while drinking beer and occasionally flipping something?over.? ?If you're sitting in the?air conditioning, watching your food on a wireless thermometer, you ain't doing it right._______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed Aug 12 10:35:17 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:35:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1902222746.690366.1597250117399@mail.yahoo.com>

 The newer cars have a parallel-flow condensor that may flow better.? But when you're scavenging...
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>; shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:35 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor

Good point.? I hadn't thought of air flow rate.? Hook several in parallel?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

 That's a clever idea.? It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.? But it could restrict air flow.? Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.? It all depends on what air tools you are using.? It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.? But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor



On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:


I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi. 

An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.? It even has "condenser" in the name....?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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Suggested annual donation? $12.96
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Wed Aug 12 11:13:11 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:13:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006101d670b9$300a4b50$901ee1f0$@gmail.com>
 <4E1334F3-BA6C-466E-96F8-6760645B54B9@icloud.com>
 <CAO8Q7COYxsXOZuGYbch2X529QHWK7wPS+xKSbsy6CyR14Q0nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1482647189.655837.1597246014596@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO8Q7CMhtWFCkjCZ0GK_2yj8LLMDNaL9DxFdHQBYTpDEfh9fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EEFEB8E3-4D9E-44C9-B68A-F8078F6E1907@mac.com>
 <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1148450745.718545.1597252391882@mail.yahoo.com>

 At one point in time the company for whom I work had a flying probe tester for PCB's which used a cushion of air to "float" the moving parts and any water droplets, any at all, would cause the thing to crash.? Therefore we have a dryer on the output of the air compressor.? But in a shop environment the occasional water droplet will pass through an air tool no problem.? A sand blaster doesn't care at all.
Of course a water droplet passing though your paint gun can ruin your whole day, but other than that I'm with you.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
To: ShopTalk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 11:30 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor

Howdy,
Are you painting or in a super high humidity environment or something?? My experience with compressors is that mostly I can remember to drain the tank every now and then and it all "just works" without any elaborate coolers / separators / whatever.

YMMV.

Mark
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:53 AM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:


The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design, and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI.? It says it has a?29,200 BTU rating:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274

I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.
Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.
https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/

-Darrell


On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
Good point.? I hadn't thought of air flow rate.? Hook several in parallel?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

 That's a clever idea.? It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.? But it could restrict air flow.? Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.? It all depends on what air tools you are using.? It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.? But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor



On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:


I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi. 

An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.? It even has "condenser" in the name....?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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_______________________________________________

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_______________________________________________

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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed Aug 12 11:33:36 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:33:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D397E0C6-D2DD-491C-841F-45303D84DB5E@icloud.com>

I?m in central Texas with a 60 gallon compressor with a small point of use water precipitator at my blast cabinet. EVen draining the tank daily the precipitator About every 10 minutes. There is also a Dick sander running on the same compressor. The compressor cycles so I?m using about 10 CFM. Much more water than I?d like. 

Currently 93? & 45%

Peace,
Pat


Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 12, 2020, at 11:31 AM, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

?
Howdy,

Are you painting or in a super high humidity environment or something?  My experience with compressors is that mostly I can remember to drain the tank every now and then and it all "just works" without any elaborate coolers / separators / whatever.

YMMV.

Mark

> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:53 AM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design, and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI.  It says it has a 29,200 BTU rating:
> 
> https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274
> 
> I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.
> 
> Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.
> 
> https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/
> 
> 
> -Darrell
> 
> 
>> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Good point.  I hadn't thought of air flow rate.  Hook several in parallel?
>> 
>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:
>>> That's a clever idea.  It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.  But it could restrict air flow.  Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.  It all depends on what air tools you are using.  It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.  But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
>>> 
>>> Dave 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
>>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
>>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi.
>>> 
>>> An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.  It even has "condenser" in the name.... 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
> 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Thu Aug 13 05:50:35 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:50:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <D397E0C6-D2DD-491C-841F-45303D84DB5E@icloud.com>
References: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D397E0C6-D2DD-491C-841F-45303D84DB5E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <996809265.1011073.1597319435856@mail.yahoo.com>

 Not much you can do other than move.? ;-)
Perhaps some sort of automatic drain will make the task less arduous.? The compressor here at work has a solenoid valve that is actuated for 5 or so seconds every time the compressor cycles off.? Set and forget.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>
To: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
Cc: ShopTalk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 12:33 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor

I?m in central Texas with a 60 gallon compressor with a small point of use water precipitator at my blast cabinet. EVen draining the tank daily the precipitator About every 10 minutes. There is also a Dick sander running on the same compressor. The compressor cycles so I?m using about 10 CFM. Much more water than I?d like.?
Currently 93? & 45%
Peace,Pat

Pat Horne?We support Habitat for Humanity

On Aug 12, 2020, at 11:31 AM, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

?Howdy,
Are you painting or in a super high humidity environment or something?? My experience with compressors is that mostly I can remember to drain the tank every now and then and it all "just works" without any elaborate coolers / separators / whatever.

YMMV.

Mark
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:53 AM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:


The transmission cooler I?m looking to use is a "stacked plate? design, and has a pressure rating of 200 PSI.? It says it has a?29,200 BTU rating:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70274

I do plan to put a small box fan to blow through it as well.
Here are some pictures, but these all seem to be between the compressor and tank, mine will be mounted on the wall after the tank.
https://www.cnccookbook.com/aftercooling-a-compressor-to-cut-down-on-moisture/

-Darrell


On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:
Good point.? I hadn't thought of air flow rate.? Hook several in parallel?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:26 AM DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com> wrote:

 That's a clever idea.? It is an excellent heat exchanger and is good for the pressure.? But it could restrict air flow.? Most are just a long, serpentine tube with fins.? It all depends on what air tools you are using.? It is possible that you couldn't run a sand blast cabinet through it.? But you could hook up the high volume users to bypass the cooler and save the dry air for the tools that need it.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2020 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor



On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:


I?d be concerned with using a transmission cooler for an aIr cooler because they are not designed for pressure use. I wouldn?t think a trans cooler would need to be rated at more than 10psi. 

An air conditioner condenser would probably be better.? It even has "condenser" in the name....?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From darrellw360 at mac.com  Thu Aug 13 08:58:59 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:58:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CCEB47CD-90E8-4A64-9223-AB57C25C0DBF@me.com>
References: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D397E0C6-D2DD-491C-841F-45303D84DB5E@icloud.com>
 <CCEB47CD-90E8-4A64-9223-AB57C25C0DBF@me.com>
Message-ID: <8BA4246C-1240-405B-B898-95921596F487@mac.com>


OK, I will submit to the wisdom of the list and mount the radiator between the pump and tank  :)

I will wait until I know the compressor is running fine, though it will be a mostly bolt-on installation and can be undone.

Since I already have the transmission cooler, I?m going to use that, and mount it on the fan guard cage, so that some of the air from the fan will be pulled through the radiator. I know this will increase the temperature of the air that then goes to cool the pump, so I?ll keep an eye on that.

The question I have is what to use for plumbing.  Since there could be some movement between the compressor cage and the rest of the compressor, should I use a hose instead of copper tubing (I?m thinking it might work-harden then break due to the vibration).

If I do need hose, I?m looking at some PTFE, stainless braid covered fuel line.  It is rated for 2500 PSI working pressure, 8000 PSI burst pressure, and 450F temp, so it would seem up to the job.

I will also mount a water trap with an automatic drain between the radiator and the tank, and since that will all be upstream of the unloader valve, it will drain each time the compressor cycles off.  I?ve found two kinds of traps, one that is basically a container that would go on the end of a drip leg, and one that all the air passes through.  Any thoughts if one would be more effective than the other?  It would seem like passing all the air through would be better, as some water could make the bend with a drip leg.

Thanks,
Darrell

PS Sorry if this gets posted twice, I sent it the first time from the wrong email account

From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 13 09:08:41 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:08:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <8BA4246C-1240-405B-B898-95921596F487@mac.com>
References: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D397E0C6-D2DD-491C-841F-45303D84DB5E@icloud.com>
 <CCEB47CD-90E8-4A64-9223-AB57C25C0DBF@me.com>
 <8BA4246C-1240-405B-B898-95921596F487@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgY=VgGzfKj24rjAhrj5AFj4Bz_LmH_m20P1Z+gm6uzpoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Darrell,

Copper tubing with compression fittings should be fine. It will work
harden, but it should not break. The air gets hot enough to melt solder (I
had that happen).

You do not need a water trap or drain here, the water will be vaporized and
end up in the tank.

Also, you will want to isolate the cooler from the fan guard if the guard
is plastic, of course.

best,

doug

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 7:59 AM Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:

>
> OK, I will submit to the wisdom of the list and mount the radiator between
> the pump and tank  :)
>
> I will wait until I know the compressor is running fine, though it will be
> a mostly bolt-on installation and can be undone.
>
> Since I already have the transmission cooler, I?m going to use that, and
> mount it on the fan guard cage, so that some of the air from the fan will
> be pulled through the radiator. I know this will increase the temperature
> of the air that then goes to cool the pump, so I?ll keep an eye on that.
>
> The question I have is what to use for plumbing.  Since there could be
> some movement between the compressor cage and the rest of the compressor,
> should I use a hose instead of copper tubing (I?m thinking it might
> work-harden then break due to the vibration).
>
> If I do need hose, I?m looking at some PTFE, stainless braid covered fuel
> line.  It is rated for 2500 PSI working pressure, 8000 PSI burst pressure,
> and 450F temp, so it would seem up to the job.
>
> I will also mount a water trap with an automatic drain between the
> radiator and the tank, and since that will all be upstream of the unloader
> valve, it will drain each time the compressor cycles off.  I?ve found two
> kinds of traps, one that is basically a container that would go on the end
> of a drip leg, and one that all the air passes through.  Any thoughts if
> one would be more effective than the other?  It would seem like passing all
> the air through would be better, as some water could make the bend with a
> drip leg.
>
> Thanks,
> Darrell
>
> PS Sorry if this gets posted twice, I sent it the first time from the
> wrong email account
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Thu Aug 13 10:25:43 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:25:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgY=VgGzfKj24rjAhrj5AFj4Bz_LmH_m20P1Z+gm6uzpoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoSWGP4h6i6Djkd6SAkjqYE_4XBsHWDOy+KRam_KUtiWtV4rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D397E0C6-D2DD-491C-841F-45303D84DB5E@icloud.com>
 <CCEB47CD-90E8-4A64-9223-AB57C25C0DBF@me.com>
 <8BA4246C-1240-405B-B898-95921596F487@mac.com>
 <CAG1pxgY=VgGzfKj24rjAhrj5AFj4Bz_LmH_m20P1Z+gm6uzpoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6dz9VQREgpiOLkavtQOBwxC4Z_5sOJL25R9xs07s4J_zg@mail.gmail.com>

Unless this is a large, complex system, I think the simplest and effective
way to deal with moisture in the piping is iron piping with drip stems with
ball valves on the ends and a moisture separator near each air outlet, and
each outlet needs to be stubbed off of a vertical  pipe section. I just
google air system pipe layout and that many layouts, most using this basic
idea.

FWIW
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Thu Aug 13 10:54:50 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:54:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking to buy a compressor
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6dz9VQREgpiOLkavtQOBwxC4Z_5sOJL25R9xs07s4J_zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMHhs6dz9VQREgpiOLkavtQOBwxC4Z_5sOJL25R9xs07s4J_zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <871ECDD8-FCE4-4212-A2C0-CBE14EF06267@icloud.com>

I need to make some changes to my air lines @ the compressor to add an intercooler between the compressor & tank. 

I have a 60 gallon 11 CFM compressor outside that feeds a 1?x12? drip leg w/valve that then feeds 1? copper pipe in the ceiling. It runs up hill for 40? across the shop. Each of my air outlets is fed from the main line. I drain the drip leg every few days & the compressor daily when working. I need to add an automatic drain one of these days. 

When I am doing a bunch of blasting the air @ the cabinet is about 110?. A local separator takes care of the rest of the moisture. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 13, 2020, at 11:27 AM, Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Unless this is a large, complex system, I think the simplest and effective way to deal with moisture in the piping is iron piping with drip stems with ball valves on the ends and a moisture separator near each air outlet, and each outlet needs to be stubbed off of a vertical  pipe section. I just google air system pipe layout and that many layouts, most using this basic idea.

FWIW
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From jniolon at att.net  Fri Aug 14 11:38:51 2020
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:38:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>

Hi guys.   is there a tv/audio guru that can drag me thru a tv/U-verse/home 
theatre quandry ??  shop content is I watch shop videos on u-tube

john
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From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Aug 14 11:54:41 2020
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 10:54:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <be9b01ca-d9a8-36a3-926b-d5080efde933@milleredp.com>

On 8/14/2020 10:38 AM, john niolon wrote:
> Hi guys.?? is there a tv/audio guru that can drag me thru a 
> tv/U-verse/home theatre quandry ??? shop content is I watch shop videos 
> on u-tube

I know a little bit, others may know more, what do you need?

John.

From jniolon at att.net  Fri Aug 14 12:50:23 2020
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:50:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <be9b01ca-d9a8-36a3-926b-d5080efde933@milleredp.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <be9b01ca-d9a8-36a3-926b-d5080efde933@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <1UWEezG8kr.552Qo4KUqTg@johns-desktop>

Here is my problem
Tv is 75? led  UN75J6300afxza Using U-verse system
Input  to tv is as follows
 
HDMI1  
hdmi cable from Uverse DVR to LG LHT874 home theatre/DVP player through  HDMI input port
Then from HDMI output to HDMI1 port on back of tv set
 
HDMI2  
hdmi cable from Apple TV box to HDMI2 port on back of set
 
HDMI3
 
Hdmi cable from Samsung DV/CD disc player to HDMI3 port on back of set
 
Tv works fine on hdmi1 setting thru home theatre system with home theatre controlling
Sound.
 
When I switch to HDMI2 and appleTV   the video works fine but I can still hear the audio from
The U-verse on HDMI1  
 
Is there a setting or cable routing that I have wrong or am missing to hear only audio from the HDMI port I select ?? 
 
I am not using any component cabling at all   should I be ??

 

----- Original Message -----
From: John Miller <jem at milleredp.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: 8/14/2020 12:54:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
________________________________________________________________________________

On 8/14/2020 10:38 AM, john niolon wrote:
> Hi guys.   is there a tv/audio guru that can drag me thru a 
> tv/U-verse/home theatre quandry ??  shop content is I watch shop videos 
> on u-tube

I know a little bit, others may know more, what do you need?

John.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From dave1massey at cs.com  Fri Aug 14 13:26:52 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:26:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <1UWEezG8kr.552Qo4KUqTg@johns-desktop>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <be9b01ca-d9a8-36a3-926b-d5080efde933@milleredp.com>
 <1UWEezG8kr.552Qo4KUqTg@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <1684352257.1634409.1597433212521@mail.yahoo.com>

 Can you route your Apple TV and Samsung through the Home Theater box?? Mine has four HDMI inputs and one output so anything routed through that gets audio.
Failing that there is an ACR (Audio Readback Channel) feature built into some equipment.? In theory, the TV will feed the audio information back to the Home Theater Audio device which will play the audio.? I never got mine to work even though all the settings are correct.? I had to resort to the Optical link which works well enough - if you have an optical input.
Good luck
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: john niolon <jniolon at att.net>
To: John Miller <jem at milleredp.com>; shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2020 1:50 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem

Here is my problem
Tv is 75? led? UN75J6300afxza Using U-verse system
Input? to tv is as follows
 
HDMI1? 
hdmi cable from Uverse DVR to LG LHT874 home theatre/DVP player through? HDMI input port
Then from HDMI output to HDMI1 port on back of tv set
 
HDMI2? 
hdmi cable from Apple TV box to HDMI2 port on back of set
 
HDMI3
 
Hdmi cable from Samsung DV/CD disc player to HDMI3 port on back of set
 
Tv works fine on hdmi1 setting thru home theatre system with home theatre controlling
Sound.
 
When I switch to HDMI2 and appleTV? the video works fine but I can still hear the audio from
The U-verse on HDMI1? 
 
Is there a setting or cable routing that I have wrong or am missing to hear only audio from the HDMI port I select ?? 
 
I am not using any component cabling at all? should I be ??

 

----- Original Message -----
From: John Miller <jem at milleredp.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: 8/14/2020 12:54:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
________________________________________________________________________________

On 8/14/2020 10:38 AM, john niolon wrote:
> Hi guys.? is there a tv/audio guru that can drag me thru a 
> tv/U-verse/home theatre quandry ??? shop content is I watch shop videos 
> on u-tube

I know a little bit, others may know more, what do you need?

John.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From eric at megageek.com  Fri Aug 14 15:05:00 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 17:05:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <1684352257.1634409.1597433212521@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <be9b01ca-d9a8-36a3-926b-d5080efde933@milleredp.com>
 <1UWEezG8kr.552Qo4KUqTg@johns-desktop>
 <1684352257.1634409.1597433212521@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OF4D66EC10.1FA5F8C8-ON852585C4.0073AA57-852585C4.0073D151@mail.megageek.com>

Not sure that is this your problem, but SOME HDMI cables are polarized 
(meaning input to output must go in a certain direction.)

I found this out the hard way.  Maybe you have an incompatible cable on 
the one device.


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From jniolon at att.net  Fri Aug 14 16:09:18 2020
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 17:09:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <OF4D66EC10.1FA5F8C8-ON852585C4.0073AA57-852585C4.0073D151@mail.megageek.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <be9b01ca-d9a8-36a3-926b-d5080efde933@milleredp.com>
 <1UWEezG8kr.552Qo4KUqTg@johns-desktop>
 <1684352257.1634409.1597433212521@mail.yahoo.com>
 <OF4D66EC10.1FA5F8C8-ON852585C4.0073AA57-852585C4.0073D151@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1UWEf1gkb4.6BCeOnIEqnQ@johns-desktop>

figured out there is only one way to put three hdmi inputs thru a theater 
system with one import... I need an hdmi switch.. should be here next 
week.nothing is easy anymore





----- Original Message -----
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: 8/14/2020 4:05:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem


Not sure that is this your problem, but SOME HDMI cables are polarized (meaning 
input to output must go in a certain direction.) 

I found this out the hard way.  Maybe you have an incompatible cable on the one 
device. 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." 
Ralph Waldo Emerson 

-Who is John Galt? 
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From dave1massey at cs.com  Sat Aug 15 08:20:40 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 14:20:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <OF4D66EC10.1FA5F8C8-ON852585C4.0073AA57-852585C4.0073D151@mail.megageek.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <be9b01ca-d9a8-36a3-926b-d5080efde933@milleredp.com>
 <1UWEezG8kr.552Qo4KUqTg@johns-desktop>
 <1684352257.1634409.1597433212521@mail.yahoo.com>
 <OF4D66EC10.1FA5F8C8-ON852585C4.0073AA57-852585C4.0073D151@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1839275467.1822274.1597501240278@mail.yahoo.com>

 Directional HDMI cables.? Who'd thunk.? I'll try swapping it end for end.
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2020 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem

Not sure that is this your problem, butSOME HDMI cables are polarized (meaning input to output must go in a certaindirection.)

I found this out the hard way. ?Maybeyou have an incompatible cable on the one device.


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rationalbeing are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." RalphWaldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com

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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Aug 15 13:02:33 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 14:02:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6fh=iYqrRR1f2jmTv1wyJ1WR6sx8i--MuFXUcW4-nF_KA@mail.gmail.com>

John & group -

Going through something similar. This is gonna be a bit long, but it's a
more complex situation than it may appear to be. A bit of background  -

I've been in and around the music and A/V business for close to 60 years. 9
of my 11 years of AF active duty I played in several AF bands, always doing
sound and recording as an "additional duty". I also designed and built a
couple of
in-house studios. The last two years of my active duty time I did film
sound recording, editing and mixer for a DoD outfit in SoCal. A couple
years later I ended up in DC working for Naval Media, and started working
with digital audio for film and TV projects. So, I've seen things go from
1/4 inch reel-to-reel tape through 35 and 16 mm magnetic film to analog,
then digital videotape, to all of the digital formats we play with today. I
retired from the VA in Temple, TX, three years ago after 20 years working
as a TV engineer/photographer, so I've played with all of the different
media formats over the years.

We have three Samsung 4K TVs. Regarding sound out, you should be able to
select the sound output to the TV speakers, the HTiB receiver and maybe one
or two other options, depending on how you have things connected. Look
under Settings>Sound Speakers or Output. On some TVs you can switch the
audio output on each input individually, on others it's a universal setting
for all the inputs. I suggest you draw this all out for yourself in pencil
and have an eraser handy.

I've attached a diagram of the following - In our MBR, the system I'm
working on now, we have a Dish Hopper going through a Yamaha A/V receiver
then to the TV. First problem occurred when I routed a new Sony 4K DVD
player through the Yamaha. I couldn't play 4K DVDs, but Blu-Rays played
fine. After a lot of head scratching and more than a few choice words, I
contacted Yamaha T/S and found out that the several y/o receiver (RX-A840)
only supports HDMI 2.0, not 2.2, which the Sony needs to play 4K discs, so
currently the 4K player is connected directly to the second HDMI port of
the TV. To get the audio from the DVD player back into the Yamaha, I come
out of the optical audio port back to one of the optical ports on the
Yamaha. Works fine.

Things got complicated when I decided to playback 4K movie files from hard
drives or other removable devices. I've got a couple of USB3 8TB drives
full of movies. One is all 4K files. Some of these are formatted
slightly differently than others and require a seperate audio codec. plus
the TV has only 1 USB port. After posting questions to a worldwide media
list I've been on since the late '90s when I built my first digital A/V
editing system, the consensus was that I needed a "media player" to connect
the two hard drives to the TV, so I ordered a MyPin M29 media player, $60
from Amazon. It supported the file formats I needed, but it wouldn't let me
turn off subtitles/closed captioning (bummer) and I get frequent, subtle
"stuttering" in the audio (MAJOR bummer). If I plugged the 4K hard drive
into either my Mac or PC and used VLC, everything worked fine, but I want
to watch these movies on the 55 inch in our bedroom. An added problem was
that the output of the MyPin player is HDMI and I was already out of HDMI
ports on the TV. So, after several discussions with several folks, I
ordered a Lenovo M75 Tiny mini PC and plan to run Plex server as the core
of a home media server down the road. The hard drives plug into it, and
there's plenty of room for expansion.

Now, how to get these additional souces into the TV? While working to
connect all of these input devices I noticed that TESmart has a 4 x 1 HDMI
switch. I'm using one of their KVM switches to let me control a couple of
Macs and a PC with a single keyboard and mouse for some time and it works
great. I sent their tech folks a note describing my issues with 4K and they
said try it. The switch was $25 and they offer a 30 day return.
Unfortunately it won't work with 4K so it's going back next week. After
talking to a Ford AV systems engineer in Austin that I've worked with
before, I ordered a Monoprice (31057) switch/scaler that Monoprice promises
will do what I need. It, too, has a 30 return.

Sorry if i've been a bit long winded but setting up all of these boxe to
work together, especially with 4K is a bit complex. The reason I'm going
through all of this detail is that if anyone's not doing 4K video, all of
the simpler routing and switching should work fine. However, if you have
ANY thoughts of going to 4K, plan for that now. Hopefully I can save other
folks some blood, sweat & tears!

RD


On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 12:39 PM john niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:

> Hi guys.   is there a tv/audio guru that can drag me thru a
> tv/U-verse/home theatre quandry ??  shop content is I watch shop videos on
> u-tube
>
> john
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com
>
>
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From vintagenick42 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 16 12:58:30 2020
From: vintagenick42 at yahoo.com (Nick Black)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:58:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rajah Clips
References: <1119937810.2792712.1597604310079.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1119937810.2792712.1597604310079@mail.yahoo.com>

OK guys...mister fat-fingers here...
I managed to break one of the Rajah clips that I use on the Duke's plug wires. Looks like they are gettin a bit scarce on the ground, but still available in whole motor sets (8). Does anyone have one straight clip they would sell or exchange for a 90 degree clip?
lemme noNick in NorCal
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From vintagenick42 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 20 10:19:57 2020
From: vintagenick42 at yahoo.com (Nick Black)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:19:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rajah Clips
In-Reply-To: <1119937810.2792712.1597604310079@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1119937810.2792712.1597604310079.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1119937810.2792712.1597604310079@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1430971079.5026114.1597940397233@mail.yahoo.com>

 GuysI don't know why this appeared again...electron majic?
You lads are way better googleirs than myself. Thanks for finding all the sources for Rajah clips that allow the purchase of not only the style I need, but in small quantities.Special thanks to the fellows who offered to send me a clip, but at this time I'm gonna?drop the "big" dollars (like $2) on a coupla new units.
The intelligence of the collective Borg is impressive.
"They don't call me sparky for nothin"...RajahNick in NorCal
    On Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 09:51:10 PM PDT, Nick Black <vintagenick42 at yahoo.com> wrote:  
 
 OK guys...mister fat-fingers here...
I managed to break one of the Rajah clips that I use on the Duke's plug wires. Looks like they are gettin a bit scarce on the ground, but still available in whole motor sets (8). Does anyone have one straight clip they would sell or exchange for a 90 degree clip?
lemme noNick in NorCal_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Fri Aug 21 09:21:45 2020
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:21:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6fh=iYqrRR1f2jmTv1wyJ1WR6sx8i--MuFXUcW4-nF_KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <CAMHhs6fh=iYqrRR1f2jmTv1wyJ1WR6sx8i--MuFXUcW4-nF_KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRUY=88+VDBohUd8n=w-cG38DYfbK_VZfSnumGXmjvT9-A@mail.gmail.com>

RD, I?ve had similar challenges with evolving AV tech (4K) and I?ve
essentially done what you did (Plex server).  I?ve moved all of my movies,
DVD, pictures, etc. onto a Synology Network Attached Storage (RAID 10) that
runs Plex Server.  I have a mix of clients all over the house, everything
from mini-PCs, to Amazon Fire sticks/boxes, and Nvidia Shields.  I?m not an
expert, but I?ve been running Plex for about 10 years now if you have any
questions.

Best,
Ian

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:03 PM Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:

> John & group -
>
> Things got complicated when I decided to playback 4K movie files from hard
> drives or other removable devices. I've got a couple of USB3 8TB drives
> full of movies. One is all 4K files. Some of these are formatted
> slightly differently than others and require a seperate audio codec. plus
> the TV has only 1 USB port. After posting questions to a worldwide media
> list I've been on since the late '90s when I built my first digital A/V
> editing system, the consensus was that I needed a "media player" to connect
> the two hard drives to the TV, so I ordered a MyPin M29 media player, $60
> from Amazon. It supported the file formats I needed, but it wouldn't let me
> turn off subtitles/closed captioning (bummer) and I get frequent, subtle
> "stuttering" in the audio (MAJOR bummer). If I plugged the 4K hard drive
> into either my Mac or PC and used VLC, everything worked fine, but I want
> to watch these movies on the 55 inch in our bedroom. An added problem was
> that the output of the MyPin player is HDMI and I was already out of HDMI
> ports on the TV. So, after several discussions with several folks, I
> ordered a Lenovo M75 Tiny mini PC and plan to run Plex server as the core
> of a home media server down the road. The hard drives plug into it, and
> there's plenty of room for expansion.
>
> Now, how to get these additional souces into the TV? While working to
> connect all of these input devices I noticed that TESmart has a 4 x 1 HDMI
> switch. I'm using one of their KVM switches to let me control a couple of
> Macs and a PC with a single keyboard and mouse for some time and it works
> great. I sent their tech folks a note describing my issues with 4K and they
> said try it. The switch was $25 and they offer a 30 day return.
> Unfortunately it won't work with 4K so it's going back next week. After
> talking to a Ford AV systems engineer in Austin that I've worked with
> before, I ordered a Monoprice (31057) switch/scaler that Monoprice promises
> will do what I need. It, too, has a 30 return.
>
> Sorry if i've been a bit long winded but setting up all of these boxe to
> work together, especially with 4K is a bit complex. The reason I'm going
> through all of this detail is that if anyone's not doing 4K video, all of
> the simpler routing and switching should work fine. However, if you have
> ANY thoughts of going to 4K, plan for that now. Hopefully I can save other
> folks some blood, sweat & tears!
>
> RD
>
>
>
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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 09:47:35 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:47:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRUY=88+VDBohUd8n=w-cG38DYfbK_VZfSnumGXmjvT9-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <CAMHhs6fh=iYqrRR1f2jmTv1wyJ1WR6sx8i--MuFXUcW4-nF_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFnfnRUY=88+VDBohUd8n=w-cG38DYfbK_VZfSnumGXmjvT9-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6dpTKxz2nUHfWVJtmDw1FJJ4ofQWrYjzoK3vuEAPtme2A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Ian. I'll keep your offer in mind. I received the Tiny PC and the
Monoprice scaler/switch, but haven't plugged the switch into the system
yet. I'm just moving the HDMI cable from the 4K DVD player to the computer.
It's best to deal with only one variable at a time, IMO. I've "added" the
4K movies and files from the other large drive to the Plex library, but I'm
not getting smooth playback of the 4K files via Plex, however, they play
fine using VLC! 'Splain that one to me Lucy! I figure I have some Plex
configuration issues to sort out. It'll come as I learn more, I'm sure.
Once I get it all working as I want I'll start  getting ready to move the
hardware to my office, but no big hurry on that, unless the Boss decides
she wants closets built where the hardware is right now.

Ron

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:21 AM Ian McFetridge <shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>
wrote:

> RD, I?ve had similar challenges with evolving AV tech (4K) and I?ve
> essentially done what you did (Plex server).  I?ve moved all of my movies,
> DVD, pictures, etc. onto a Synology Network Attached Storage (RAID 10) that
> runs Plex Server.  I have a mix of clients all over the house, everything
> from mini-PCs, to Amazon Fire sticks/boxes, and Nvidia Shields.  I?m not an
> expert, but I?ve been running Plex for about 10 years now if you have any
> questions.
>
> Best,
> Ian
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:03 PM Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John & group -
>>
>> Things got complicated when I decided to playback 4K movie files from
>> hard drives or other removable devices. I've got a couple of USB3 8TB
>> drives full of movies. One is all 4K files. Some of these are formatted
>> slightly differently than others and require a seperate audio codec. plus
>> the TV has only 1 USB port. After posting questions to a worldwide media
>> list I've been on since the late '90s when I built my first digital A/V
>> editing system, the consensus was that I needed a "media player" to connect
>> the two hard drives to the TV, so I ordered a MyPin M29 media player, $60
>> from Amazon. It supported the file formats I needed, but it wouldn't let me
>> turn off subtitles/closed captioning (bummer) and I get frequent, subtle
>> "stuttering" in the audio (MAJOR bummer). If I plugged the 4K hard drive
>> into either my Mac or PC and used VLC, everything worked fine, but I want
>> to watch these movies on the 55 inch in our bedroom. An added problem was
>> that the output of the MyPin player is HDMI and I was already out of HDMI
>> ports on the TV. So, after several discussions with several folks, I
>> ordered a Lenovo M75 Tiny mini PC and plan to run Plex server as the core
>> of a home media server down the road. The hard drives plug into it, and
>> there's plenty of room for expansion.
>>
>> Now, how to get these additional souces into the TV? While working to
>> connect all of these input devices I noticed that TESmart has a 4 x 1 HDMI
>> switch. I'm using one of their KVM switches to let me control a couple of
>> Macs and a PC with a single keyboard and mouse for some time and it works
>> great. I sent their tech folks a note describing my issues with 4K and they
>> said try it. The switch was $25 and they offer a 30 day return.
>> Unfortunately it won't work with 4K so it's going back next week. After
>> talking to a Ford AV systems engineer in Austin that I've worked with
>> before, I ordered a Monoprice (31057) switch/scaler that Monoprice promises
>> will do what I need. It, too, has a 30 return.
>>
>> Sorry if i've been a bit long winded but setting up all of these boxe to
>> work together, especially with 4K is a bit complex. The reason I'm going
>> through all of this detail is that if anyone's not doing 4K video, all of
>> the simpler routing and switching should work fine. However, if you have
>> ANY thoughts of going to 4K, plan for that now. Hopefully I can save other
>> folks some blood, sweat & tears!
>>
>> RD
>>
>>
>>
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From nogera at icloud.com  Fri Aug 21 11:11:31 2020
From: nogera at icloud.com (Robert Nogueirao)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:11:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bounce message
Message-ID: <B2F2FB71-1B46-47FB-BC39-5744BF35871F@icloud.com>

Does team.net send out ?Bounce Measages with an attachment?  
I received the following and with close to 23 years on the list have never receive anything like it much less something with an attachment.
Just checking as the attachment Is not wearing a mask. :) so haven?t opened it. 
Bob Nogueira

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 11:46:26 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:46:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bounce message
In-Reply-To: <B2F2FB71-1B46-47FB-BC39-5744BF35871F@icloud.com>
References: <B2F2FB71-1B46-47FB-BC39-5744BF35871F@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6f+sqoCaMPdm5ow+KDN33k=-xDLf8z-y8nCO1K4B+_-Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Bob,

I've never seen one on this list, either. I'm on another large list and
occasionally get "bounced messages" notifications, but it's set up so that
if you just hit REPLY, then SEND, it resets the bounce counter. I'd never
click on a link included, especially if it's from an odd URL. I'd think
anything from Mark would be from a TEAM.NET domain.

I cced Mark on this.

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 12:12 PM Robert Nogueirao <nogera at icloud.com> wrote:

> Does team.net send out ?Bounce Measages with an attachment?
> I received the following and with close to 23 years on the list have never
> receive anything like it much less something with an attachment.
> Just checking as the attachment Is not wearing a mask. :) so haven?t
> opened it.
> Bob Nogueira
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com
>
>
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From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Aug 21 11:50:55 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bounce message
In-Reply-To: <B2F2FB71-1B46-47FB-BC39-5744BF35871F@icloud.com>
References: <B2F2FB71-1B46-47FB-BC39-5744BF35871F@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <90d1c7f3-d7eb-4158-e48e-d3cb010dd9ff@bradakis.com>

On 8/21/20 11:11 AM, Robert Nogueirao wrote:
> Does team.net send out ?Bounce Measages with an attachment?
> I received the following


Your message to the list did not include a copy of any bounce message.

mjb.



From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 12:52:03 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:52:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6dpTKxz2nUHfWVJtmDw1FJJ4ofQWrYjzoK3vuEAPtme2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <CAMHhs6fh=iYqrRR1f2jmTv1wyJ1WR6sx8i--MuFXUcW4-nF_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFnfnRUY=88+VDBohUd8n=w-cG38DYfbK_VZfSnumGXmjvT9-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMHhs6dpTKxz2nUHfWVJtmDw1FJJ4ofQWrYjzoK3vuEAPtme2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6cwYWYjDGKQ+FDZnGq1s9p9f8xYhbyztqqdZEBjutyszw@mail.gmail.com>

I found out that Plex doesn't play nice with MKv files. I may look into
converting them, but for the time being I can play them using VLC. IMO,
this just emphasizes how complex making all of this stuff can be. The next
step over the next couple of days is to integrate a HDMI switch between the
Tiny-PC and the AV receiver and the TV.

Ron

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:47 AM Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Ian. I'll keep your offer in mind. I received the Tiny PC and the
> Monoprice scaler/switch, but haven't plugged the switch into the system
> yet. I'm just moving the HDMI cable from the 4K DVD player to the computer.
> It's best to deal with only one variable at a time, IMO. I've "added" the
> 4K movies and files from the other large drive to the Plex library, but I'm
> not getting smooth playback of the 4K files via Plex, however, they play
> fine using VLC! 'Splain that one to me Lucy! I figure I have some Plex
> configuration issues to sort out. It'll come as I learn more, I'm sure.
> Once I get it all working as I want I'll start  getting ready to move the
> hardware to my office, but no big hurry on that, unless the Boss decides
> she wants closets built where the hardware is right now.
>
> Ron
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:21 AM Ian McFetridge <shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>
> wrote:
>
>> RD, I?ve had similar challenges with evolving AV tech (4K) and I?ve
>> essentially done what you did (Plex server).  I?ve moved all of my movies,
>> DVD, pictures, etc. onto a Synology Network Attached Storage (RAID 10) that
>> runs Plex Server.  I have a mix of clients all over the house, everything
>> from mini-PCs, to Amazon Fire sticks/boxes, and Nvidia Shields.  I?m not an
>> expert, but I?ve been running Plex for about 10 years now if you have any
>> questions.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ian
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:03 PM Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John & group -
>>>
>>> Things got complicated when I decided to playback 4K movie files from
>>> hard drives or other removable devices. I've got a couple of USB3 8TB
>>> drives full of movies. One is all 4K files. Some of these are formatted
>>> slightly differently than others and require a seperate audio codec. plus
>>> the TV has only 1 USB port. After posting questions to a worldwide media
>>> list I've been on since the late '90s when I built my first digital A/V
>>> editing system, the consensus was that I needed a "media player" to connect
>>> the two hard drives to the TV, so I ordered a MyPin M29 media player, $60
>>> from Amazon. It supported the file formats I needed, but it wouldn't let me
>>> turn off subtitles/closed captioning (bummer) and I get frequent, subtle
>>> "stuttering" in the audio (MAJOR bummer). If I plugged the 4K hard drive
>>> into either my Mac or PC and used VLC, everything worked fine, but I want
>>> to watch these movies on the 55 inch in our bedroom. An added problem was
>>> that the output of the MyPin player is HDMI and I was already out of HDMI
>>> ports on the TV. So, after several discussions with several folks, I
>>> ordered a Lenovo M75 Tiny mini PC and plan to run Plex server as the core
>>> of a home media server down the road. The hard drives plug into it, and
>>> there's plenty of room for expansion.
>>>
>>> Now, how to get these additional souces into the TV? While working to
>>> connect all of these input devices I noticed that TESmart has a 4 x 1 HDMI
>>> switch. I'm using one of their KVM switches to let me control a couple of
>>> Macs and a PC with a single keyboard and mouse for some time and it works
>>> great. I sent their tech folks a note describing my issues with 4K and they
>>> said try it. The switch was $25 and they offer a 30 day return.
>>> Unfortunately it won't work with 4K so it's going back next week. After
>>> talking to a Ford AV systems engineer in Austin that I've worked with
>>> before, I ordered a Monoprice (31057) switch/scaler that Monoprice promises
>>> will do what I need. It, too, has a 30 return.
>>>
>>> Sorry if i've been a bit long winded but setting up all of these boxe to
>>> work together, especially with 4K is a bit complex. The reason I'm going
>>> through all of this detail is that if anyone's not doing 4K video, all of
>>> the simpler routing and switching should work fine. However, if you have
>>> ANY thoughts of going to 4K, plan for that now. Hopefully I can save other
>>> folks some blood, sweat & tears!
>>>
>>> RD
>>>
>>>
>>>
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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 15:15:22 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:15:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tv - home theater cabling problem
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRWmXs2LD=4YgU3dbR+Zw1TnSPcZf=XA-jsqNNPmFE=HXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ.ref@johns-desktop>
 <1UWEeyVGER.4SHT5z0lyvZ@johns-desktop>
 <CAMHhs6fh=iYqrRR1f2jmTv1wyJ1WR6sx8i--MuFXUcW4-nF_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFnfnRUY=88+VDBohUd8n=w-cG38DYfbK_VZfSnumGXmjvT9-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMHhs6dpTKxz2nUHfWVJtmDw1FJJ4ofQWrYjzoK3vuEAPtme2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMHhs6cwYWYjDGKQ+FDZnGq1s9p9f8xYhbyztqqdZEBjutyszw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFnfnRWmXs2LD=4YgU3dbR+Zw1TnSPcZf=XA-jsqNNPmFE=HXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6dPivXoA7PqatYvG6fG+00_zeBybMHW0oGV2FJJjRSxhA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Ian, I'll check it out. Right now playback using the Plex app on
the TinyPC stutters slightly. Haven't tried using the Plex app on the TV.

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:16 PM Ian McFetridge <shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>
wrote:

> Hi Ron,
>
> What issues are you having with MKV files?  I backed-up most of my
> Blu-ray?s into MKV containers, but I believe I have some 4K encoded with
> H.264 HEVC.  Have you seen this page?
>
>
> https://support.plex.tv/articles/203810286-what-media-formats-are-supported/
>
> Best,
> Ian
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 2:52 PM Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I found out that Plex doesn't play nice with MKv files. I may look into
>> converting them, but for the time being I can play them using VLC. IMO,
>> this just emphasizes how complex making all of this stuff can be. The next
>> step over the next couple of days is to integrate a HDMI switch between the
>> Tiny-PC and the AV receiver and the TV.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:47 AM Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Ian. I'll keep your offer in mind. I received the Tiny PC and
>>> the Monoprice scaler/switch, but haven't plugged the switch into the system
>>> yet. I'm just moving the HDMI cable from the 4K DVD player to the computer.
>>> It's best to deal with only one variable at a time, IMO. I've "added" the
>>> 4K movies and files from the other large drive to the Plex library, but I'm
>>> not getting smooth playback of the 4K files via Plex, however, they play
>>> fine using VLC! 'Splain that one to me Lucy! I figure I have some Plex
>>> configuration issues to sort out. It'll come as I learn more, I'm sure.
>>> Once I get it all working as I want I'll start  getting ready to move the
>>> hardware to my office, but no big hurry on that, unless the Boss decides
>>> she wants closets built where the hardware is right now.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:21 AM Ian McFetridge <
>>> shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> RD, I?ve had similar challenges with evolving AV tech (4K) and I?ve
>>>> essentially done what you did (Plex server).  I?ve moved all of my movies,
>>>> DVD, pictures, etc. onto a Synology Network Attached Storage (RAID 10) that
>>>> runs Plex Server.  I have a mix of clients all over the house, everything
>>>> from mini-PCs, to Amazon Fire sticks/boxes, and Nvidia Shields.  I?m not an
>>>> expert, but I?ve been running Plex for about 10 years now if you have any
>>>> questions.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:03 PM Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John & group -
>>>>>
>>>>> Things got complicated when I decided to playback 4K movie files from
>>>>> hard drives or other removable devices. I've got a couple of USB3 8TB
>>>>> drives full of movies. One is all 4K files. Some of these are formatted
>>>>> slightly differently than others and require a seperate audio codec. plus
>>>>> the TV has only 1 USB port. After posting questions to a worldwide media
>>>>> list I've been on since the late '90s when I built my first digital A/V
>>>>> editing system, the consensus was that I needed a "media player" to connect
>>>>> the two hard drives to the TV, so I ordered a MyPin M29 media player, $60
>>>>> from Amazon. It supported the file formats I needed, but it wouldn't let me
>>>>> turn off subtitles/closed captioning (bummer) and I get frequent, subtle
>>>>> "stuttering" in the audio (MAJOR bummer). If I plugged the 4K hard drive
>>>>> into either my Mac or PC and used VLC, everything worked fine, but I want
>>>>> to watch these movies on the 55 inch in our bedroom. An added problem was
>>>>> that the output of the MyPin player is HDMI and I was already out of HDMI
>>>>> ports on the TV. So, after several discussions with several folks, I
>>>>> ordered a Lenovo M75 Tiny mini PC and plan to run Plex server as the core
>>>>> of a home media server down the road. The hard drives plug into it, and
>>>>> there's plenty of room for expansion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, how to get these additional souces into the TV? While working to
>>>>> connect all of these input devices I noticed that TESmart has a 4 x 1 HDMI
>>>>> switch. I'm using one of their KVM switches to let me control a couple of
>>>>> Macs and a PC with a single keyboard and mouse for some time and it works
>>>>> great. I sent their tech folks a note describing my issues with 4K and they
>>>>> said try it. The switch was $25 and they offer a 30 day return.
>>>>> Unfortunately it won't work with 4K so it's going back next week. After
>>>>> talking to a Ford AV systems engineer in Austin that I've worked with
>>>>> before, I ordered a Monoprice (31057) switch/scaler that Monoprice promises
>>>>> will do what I need. It, too, has a 30 return.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry if i've been a bit long winded but setting up all of these boxe
>>>>> to work together, especially with 4K is a bit complex. The reason I'm going
>>>>> through all of this detail is that if anyone's not doing 4K video, all of
>>>>> the simpler routing and switching should work fine. However, if you have
>>>>> ANY thoughts of going to 4K, plan for that now. Hopefully I can save other
>>>>> folks some blood, sweat & tears!
>>>>>
>>>>> RD
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Fri Aug 21 17:24:08 2020
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:24:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
Message-ID: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>

Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.

Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid, but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.

Basic functionality:
AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves
thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
Autoranging is also a must have

What are folks out there using that you would recommend?

Thanks.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com



From eric at megageek.com  Fri Aug 21 17:38:53 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:38:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <OF7373BE67.11DC4C5B-ON852585CB.0081C88D-852585CB.0081E823@mail.megageek.com>

Tom,

Might be out of the price range, but the Power Probe COMES with a 
multi-meter that is really good.

If you ever think you might want this unit, now is a good excuse to get it 
AND get a free meter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012USP6QW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?



From:   Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com>
To:     Shop Talk <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date:   08/21/2020 19:24
Subject:        [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
Sent by:        "Shop-talk" <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>



Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give 
up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.

Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the 
craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid, 
but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t 
there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.

Basic functionality:
AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves
thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
Autoranging is also a must have

What are folks out there using that you would recommend?

Thanks.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
http://autox.team.net/archive

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From jdinnis at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 17:43:54 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:43:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YAnXW+Yi1MrXULLGpizxvK77LEbuwL9oKXW_iSqq7OHtw@mail.gmail.com>

THis is a newer version of the meter I own.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071JL6LLL/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_uUfqFb3VQKRAG
It has been very reliable for me.  I think it is just about the best value
for the money out there right now.  I have had several of the HF freebies,
all have failed.

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 6:24 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:

> Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give
> up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.
>
> Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the
> craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid,
> but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t
> there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.
>
> Basic functionality:
> AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves
> thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
> Autoranging is also a must have
>
> What are folks out there using that you would recommend?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Aug 21 18:24:54 2020
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 20:24:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20200821200826.04ad2d98@cox.net>

At 07:24 PM 8/21/2020, you wrote:

 >Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman 
multimeter has decided to give up the
 > ghost and I???m seeking insights on what I 
might replace it with. Looked at the
 >Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the first
 >place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn???t rock 
solid, but value for the dollar spent
 >when you???re a casual user really isn???t there. Applications are home and
 >automotive in nature. Basic functionality: 
AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are
 >must haves thermocouple inputs are a highly 
rated nice to have Autoranging is
 >also a must have What are folks out there using that you would recommend?


Tom,

You said mostly for home and automotive use.  Not sure why the requiremets fo
the thermocouple and auto ranging.

But I've got a bunch of multimeters.  I have a 
ton of the cheap HF digital ones,
one in every car, one in every tool box & bag, and almost one in every room of
the house.  They are the most accurate, but I've has some for well over 10 yrs.

I have so many because they are so cheap Free to $4.

However, I prefer analog meters.  The seem to be 
"steadier" than the digital one.
Many time the digital ones take too long to 
reacquire their setting.  I've got about 5
analog meters,  one in my tool box, and another 
one in my automotive speciality tool box, with my 
dwell tach meter.  Then I've got a couple of old 
radio shack meters that I really like.  A simpson 
which is the top of the heap, and a Voltohmist
Jr. VTVM.

So it depends on what you really want.  I don't 
think you need a $200 meter, but
then again I may be wrong.

That LUKE meter John Innis has really looks like a good buy.

I don't see that you need to spend pro dollar for a meter that you aren't using
every day all the time.

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/morgan
Bricklin:     www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction




-- 
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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 18:34:29 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:34:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20200821200826.04ad2d98@cox.net>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
 <6.2.5.6.1.20200821200826.04ad2d98@cox.net>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6eaYpq-gtc_dyuUKY382h+bCfzqbXVtk6uuZ=CpH0o7ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

How about a Klein from Home Depot? I suspect a wide range of features and
prices. Get an extended warranty if it's not much. Easy and should be
inexpensive to replace.

FWIW

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:25 PM John T. Blair <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> At 07:24 PM 8/21/2020, you wrote:
>
> >Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give
> up the
> > ghost and I???m seeking insights on what I might replace it with. Looked
> at the
> >Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the
> first
> >place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn???t rock solid, but value for the
> dollar spent
> >when you???re a casual user really isn???t there. Applications are home
> and
> >automotive in nature. Basic functionality: AC/DC voltage,
> resistance/continuity are
> >must haves thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
> Autoranging is
> >also a must have What are folks out there using that you would recommend?
>
>
> Tom,
>
> You said mostly for home and automotive use.  Not sure why the requiremets
> fo
> the thermocouple and auto ranging.
>
> But I've got a bunch of multimeters.  I have a ton of the cheap HF digital
> ones,
> one in every car, one in every tool box & bag, and almost one in every
> room of
> the house.  They are the most accurate, but I've has some for well over 10
> yrs.
>
> I have so many because they are so cheap Free to $4.
>
> However, I prefer analog meters.  The seem to be "steadier" than the
> digital one.
> Many time the digital ones take too long to reacquire their setting.  I've
> got about 5
> analog meters,  one in my tool box, and another one in my automotive
> speciality tool box, with my dwell tach meter.  Then I've got a couple of
> old radio shack meters that I really like.  A simpson which is the top of
> the heap, and a Voltohmist
> Jr. VTVM.
>
> So it depends on what you really want.  I don't think you need a $200
> meter, but
> then again I may be wrong.
>
> That LUKE meter John Innis has really looks like a good buy.
>
> I don't see that you need to spend pro dollar for a meter that you aren't
> using
> every day all the time.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> [image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> <#m_5586738876736239213_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/morgan
> Bricklin:     www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>
> From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
>      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
>      In God We Trust
>      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
>                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com
>
>
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From dirtbeard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 19:08:23 2020
From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:08:23 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1pxgaNwDmpr52GQ20G=SuKsr+_VViVk_EsQLrh8vTFjrXwkw@mail.gmail.com>

I am sure that it is more than you want to spend, but everybody should
treat themselves to a Simpson 260:

https://www.amazon.com/Simpson-260-8-12388-Analog-Multimeter/dp/B002R6MWL0

I have had mine for 30 years, and it still smells new.  It is an absolute
joy to pull out of the box and use.

100% USA made by native Americans, the Lake Superior Chippewa Indian tribe:

https://simpsonelectric.com/about-us/history

The switchgear is amazing (feels like it could switch 14.4K VAC), bakelite
case, taut-band suspension, great for variable voltages, etc.

There really is nothing else like it on the market today.

You will never regret buying one and you probably will need to put it in
your will for someone that you love and trust.

best,

doug



On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 4:24 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:

> Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give
> up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.
>
> Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the
> craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid,
> but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t
> there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.
>
> Basic functionality:
> AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves
> thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
> Autoranging is also a must have
>
> What are folks out there using that you would recommend?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>
>
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 19:12:36 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:12:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMf_YyCPKLZrKtyUza4yVZcbwx=N27tKeyG0vJi4ORX_A@mail.gmail.com>

" What are folks out there using that you would recommend?"

How accurate do you want to be?  The HF is fine for letting you know if
there's voltage available or not.  Most people don't use that kind of meter
to measure current - most people don't measure current at all.

I love my collection of Fluke meters at work.  But I am fully aware that
they are overkill for checking batteries at home.  I got a clone from Radio
Shack for $20 about 20 years ago and it works great.  But it's overkill,
too.

Chances are, whatever's in your budget is right for you.  It may not become
an heirloom, though.

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:24 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:

> Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give
> up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.
>
> Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the
> craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid,
> but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t
> there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.
>
> Basic functionality:
> AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves
> thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
> Autoranging is also a must have
>
> What are folks out there using that you would recommend?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From lspector at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 19:54:49 2020
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:54:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAG1pxgaNwDmpr52GQ20G=SuKsr+_VViVk_EsQLrh8vTFjrXwkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
 <CAG1pxgaNwDmpr52GQ20G=SuKsr+_VViVk_EsQLrh8vTFjrXwkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNB6W=S58H8hyf3oHyggCdZR98Vh0HTVSvhAQ8Fc6-xwfUJ8A@mail.gmail.com>

I have my father's Simpson. It has a calibration sticker inside dated 1956!
Still works perfectly.

-Larry

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 9:08 PM old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am sure that it is more than you want to spend, but everybody should
> treat themselves to a Simpson 260:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Simpson-260-8-12388-Analog-Multimeter/dp/B002R6MWL0
>
>
> I have had mine for 30 years, and it still smells new.  It is an absolute
> joy to pull out of the box and use.
>
> 100% USA made by native Americans, the Lake Superior Chippewa Indian tribe:
>
> https://simpsonelectric.com/about-us/history
>
> The switchgear is amazing (feels like it could switch 14.4K VAC), bakelite
> case, taut-band suspension, great for variable voltages, etc.
>
> There really is nothing else like it on the market today.
>
> You will never regret buying one and you probably will need to put it in
> your will for someone that you love and trust.
>
> best,
>
> doug
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 4:24 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give
>> up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.
>>
>> Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the
>> craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid,
>> but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t
>> there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.
>>
>> Basic functionality:
>> AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves
>> thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
>> Autoranging is also a must have
>>
>> What are folks out there using that you would recommend?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> ?
>> Tom Coradeschi
>> tjcora at icloud.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lspector at gmail.com
>
>
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Fri Aug 21 20:00:17 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 02:00:17 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB3151597AC4B25F22206758ADA8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I may get blasted for this, but I use a Harbor Freight cheapo meter for 99% of the automotive, home and shop stuff that I do.  I checked against my Fluke (before it died) and they were essentially identical.  

The build quality is definitely different.  The case and especially the leads are quite poor in the HF multimeter, but it does perform accurately and they are definitely priced as disposable units.  

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Tom Coradeschi
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:24 PM
To: Shop Talk <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations

Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.

Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid, but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.

Basic functionality:
AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have Autoranging is also a must have

What are folks out there using that you would recommend?

Thanks.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibrooks at live.com


From rkg at teleport.com  Fri Aug 21 20:15:28 2020
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:15:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6eaYpq-gtc_dyuUKY382h+bCfzqbXVtk6uuZ=CpH0o7ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
 <6.2.5.6.1.20200821200826.04ad2d98@cox.net>
 <CAMHhs6eaYpq-gtc_dyuUKY382h+bCfzqbXVtk6uuZ=CpH0o7ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d713940f-6e82-424d-b934-8348dfcd24eb@teleport.com>

+1 on Ronnie's comment.? I had to chase an electrical fault in the 
better half's car a couple of days ago and had wit to realize it might 
be faster with a meter with a clamp on ammeter (worked great, fwiw - I 
can't figure out why I didn't get one sooner). I've used fluke gear a 
lot in a prior life - it is really nice gear, but the nosebleed pricing 
is hard to justify unless its earning money for you or you use it a LOT. 
I ended up getting a Klein CL390 from the orange borg-er, Home Depot - 
the unit seemed pretty well put together though maybe the big brother 
(cl800) would have been better (it has a different display that might be 
more readable in adverse conditions).? I guess I'll see how long it lasts.

Good Luck on your choice,

rkg

(Richard George)

On 8/21/2020 5:34 PM, Ronnie Day wrote:
> How about a Klein from Home Depot? I suspect a wide range of features 
> and prices. Get an extended warranty if it's not much. Easy and should 
> be inexpensive to replace.
>
> FWIW
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:25 PM John T. Blair <jblair1948 at cox.net 
> <mailto:jblair1948 at cox.net>> wrote:
>
>     At 07:24 PM 8/21/2020, you wrote:
>
>     >Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided
>     to give up the
>     > ghost and I???m seeking insights on what I might replace it
>     with. Looked at the
>     >Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in
>     the first
>     >place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn???t rock solid, but value
>     for the dollar spent
>     >when you???re a casual user really isn???t there. Applications
>     are home and
>     >automotive in nature. Basic functionality: AC/DC voltage,
>     resistance/continuity are
>     >must haves thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
>     Autoranging is
>     >also a must have What are folks out there using that you would
>     recommend?
>
>
>     Tom,
>
>     You said mostly for home and automotive use.? Not sure why the
>     requiremets fo
>     the thermocouple and auto ranging.
>
>     But I've got a bunch of multimeters.? I have a ton of the cheap HF
>     digital ones,
>     one in every car, one in every tool box & bag, and almost one in
>     every room of
>     the house.? They are the most accurate, but I've has some for well
>     over 10 yrs.
>
>     I have so many because they are so cheap Free to $4.
>
>     However, I prefer analog meters.? The seem to be "steadier" than
>     the digital one.
>     Many time the digital ones take too long to reacquire their
>     setting.? I've got about 5
>     analog meters,? one in my tool box, and another one in my
>     automotive speciality tool box, with my dwell tach meter.? Then
>     I've got a couple of old radio shack meters that I really like.? A
>     simpson which is the top of the heap, and a Voltohmist
>     Jr. VTVM.
>
>     So it depends on what you really want.? I don't think you need a
>     $200 meter, but
>     then again I may be wrong.
>
>     That LUKE meter John Innis has really looks like a good buy.
>
>     I don't see that you need to spend pro dollar for a meter that you
>     aren't using
>     every day all the time.
>
>     John
>
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Avast logo <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> 	
>
>     This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>     www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
>
>     <#m_5586738876736239213_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>     John T. Blair? WA4OHZ???? email: jblair1948 at cox.net
>     <mailto:jblair1948 at cox.net>
>     Va. Beach, Va Phone:? (757) 495-8229
>
>     ????????? 48 TR1800??? 48 #4 Midget??? 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>     ???? 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire??? 71 Saab Sonett III
>     65 Rambler Classic
>
>     Morgan: www.team.net/morgan <http://www.team.net/morgan>
>     Bricklin: www.bricklin.org <http://www.bricklin.org/>
>
>     If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
>     If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>
>     From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
>     ???? e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
>     ???? In God We Trust
>     ???? Liberty - the? power? of choosing,? thinking,? and? acting? for
>     oneself; freedom? from? control? or restriction
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From jniolon at att.net  Fri Aug 21 20:30:23 2020
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:30:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB3151597AC4B25F22206758ADA8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB3151597AC4B25F22206758ADA8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1UWEmiGhex.1O1lNnoG4UC@johns-desktop>

All good advice so far.   I have a Simpson 260 and it's Triplett twin the 630,  a Fluke 77 and an 88 and a dozen HF throwaways...  I use the HF for quick go/ no go auto work and continuity. The test leads are the first fail point with them.. and a good set of test leads is worth more than the meter.  The flukes do the work away from the bench but every time I pull that 260 out of it's case it's like greeting a old good friend.  You can't peek a transceiver with a digital meter but you can see a meter movement (mirrored of course) with a milliamp change.   It's as fragile as a baby if dropped so it's set on the back of the bench when in use..  If all you want is homeowner stuff and not doing electronics go with what you can afford, go with a Klein or a Sperry or any of a dozen ebay specials  but I wouldn't spend over a hundred fifty bucks...  You'll probably outlive it.

john

----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
To: Shop Talk <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Cc: Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com>
Sent: 8/21/2020 9:00:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
________________________________________________________________________________

I may get blasted for this, but I use a Harbor Freight cheapo meter for 99% of the automotive, home and shop stuff that I do.  I checked against my Fluke (before it died) and they were essentially identical.  

The build quality is definitely different.  The case and especially the leads are quite poor in the HF multimeter, but it does perform accurately and they are definitely priced as disposable units.  

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Tom Coradeschi
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:24 PM
To: Shop Talk <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations

Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.

Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid, but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.

Basic functionality:
AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have Autoranging is also a must have

What are folks out there using that you would recommend?

Thanks.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


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From patintexas at icloud.com  Fri Aug 21 21:10:36 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:10:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB3151597AC4B25F22206758ADA8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB3151597AC4B25F22206758ADA8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <71B971D6-FC88-4125-A961-655838FF83CB@icloud.com>

I agree that the low end meters can be as accurate as more expensive units especially where high accuracy is not needed. 

The leads on most low end meters are my main complaint but there are some meters that use standard plugs so the leads can be upgraded easily. 

It all comes down to what you want & what you are willing to Spend. There is no wrong answer. 

Yesterday I was in a resale shop & they had a Simpson 260 that appeared to be in very good condition for $160. In years past I would have grabbed it in a heartbeat but now I am retired & only have need for a meter every month or so, I passed on it. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 21, 2020, at 9:01 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:

?I may get blasted for this, but I use a Harbor Freight cheapo meter for 99% of the automotive, home and shop stuff that I do.  I checked against my Fluke (before it died) and they were essentially identical.  

The build quality is definitely different.  The case and especially the leads are quite poor in the HF multimeter, but it does perform accurately and they are definitely priced as disposable units.  

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Tom Coradeschi
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:24 PM
To: Shop Talk <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations

Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.

Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid, but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.

Basic functionality:
AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have Autoranging is also a must have

What are folks out there using that you would recommend?

Thanks.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


_______________________________________________

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From JIBrooks at live.com  Fri Aug 21 21:19:42 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 03:19:42 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <71B971D6-FC88-4125-A961-655838FF83CB@icloud.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB3151597AC4B25F22206758ADA8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <71B971D6-FC88-4125-A961-655838FF83CB@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB3151988174489983A7601217A8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Agreed 100%.  I do like being able to leave an HF meters with each of my projects, vehicles and toolboxes, but sometimes a "real" meter is needed, especially one with an Amp-Clamp.  

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> 
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:11 PM
To: Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com>
Cc: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations

I agree that the low end meters can be as accurate as more expensive units especially where high accuracy is not needed. 

The leads on most low end meters are my main complaint but there are some meters that use standard plugs so the leads can be upgraded easily. 

It all comes down to what you want & what you are willing to Spend. There is no wrong answer. 

Yesterday I was in a resale shop & they had a Simpson 260 that appeared to be in very good condition for $160. In years past I would have grabbed it in a heartbeat but now I am retired & only have need for a meter every month or so, I passed on it. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 21, 2020, at 9:01 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks at live.com> wrote:

?I may get blasted for this, but I use a Harbor Freight cheapo meter for 99% of the automotive, home and shop stuff that I do.  I checked against my Fluke (before it died) and they were essentially identical.  

The build quality is definitely different.  The case and especially the leads are quite poor in the HF multimeter, but it does perform accurately and they are definitely priced as disposable units.  

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Tom Coradeschi
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:24 PM
To: Shop Talk <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations

Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.

Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid, but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.

Basic functionality:
AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have Autoranging is also a must have

What are folks out there using that you would recommend?

Thanks.

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Fri Aug 21 22:06:46 2020
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:06:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MultiMeters
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6018.1598065842.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.6018.1598065842.2905.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <618fbb24-9230-5c14-625e-6083bb779816@threeboysfarm.com>

I've had and used both high end and low end meters and it's like any 
tool: both will do what you need but often the better one just feels 
better to use and even to hold.? I'd rather buy a used Fluke on ebay 
than a new cheapo from Amazon. And there is also the option of getting 
one of the simpler Flukes new, still well under $50.

Regards,

Mark Miller   707-490-5834
markmiller at threeboysfarm.com


From phoenix722 at comcast.net  Sat Aug 22 14:46:01 2020
From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:46:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF
Message-ID: <a070c15c-c39d-0593-2316-8b897ee0d1f3@comcast.net>

I keep hearing about all these great buys at HF.

https://imgur.com/gallery/JcG3B

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From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Aug 22 15:24:06 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:24:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF
In-Reply-To: <a070c15c-c39d-0593-2316-8b897ee0d1f3@comcast.net>
References: <a070c15c-c39d-0593-2316-8b897ee0d1f3@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4A503144-4023-478D-AC98-291CFD38B366@icloud.com>

Love it! Seen it before. 

I?ve been looking for the carpenters dreidel but they are never in stock & they can?t be purchased on line. 

Keep well

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


On Aug 22, 2020, at 3:46 PM, Mike Sinclair <phoenix722 at comcast.net> wrote:

?
I keep hearing about all these great buys at HF.

https://imgur.com/gallery/JcG3B

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From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Sat Aug 22 15:38:31 2020
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 21:38:31 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
Message-ID: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hey all,

While trying to sort the valve on our upstairs toilet, the toilet itself now doesn't fully flush. The tank bits cycle, the toilet fills, but it only drains slowly. It doesn't "gurgle" (for lack of a better term) at the end.

This has been going on for over a week now so I doubt there is anything stuck. (no feminine products in use in our house any more so that is not an issue.) I've plunged the hell out of it, pushing down and also sucking up with plunger. I can't really get a snake to go very far into the trap so not much help there.

I remember reading years ago that a clogged or compromised vent can affect sink drainage. Is it possible that this issue is affecting this toilet? The sink and tub in the upstairs bathrrom are no affected. They both drain fine. Hell, nothing else in the house is affected.

thoughts please?
thanks
tim
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Sat Aug 22 18:05:36 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 00:05:36 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB3151B734F59D6E70343C2ECDA8590@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Tim,

I had that in one of my rentals.  I plunged, snaked as best as I could and eventually pulled the toilet.  I check both ends for an obstruction.  Eventually, I did notice something, really small which was not white when looking in from the bowl side.  It was barely visible deep in the toilet.  I could not get it out, but fortunately had my 10 year old son with small hands.  It took a lot of begging, promises that it was very clean and a promise of an ice cream afterwards and he finally reached in and snagged a small toy that was restricting flow.  He had no interest in keeping the toy. <grin>

I suspect there is something that is blocking the flow, probably originating from the bowl side.  Don't pull the toilet, but do whatever you can to see into the deeper parts of the toilet and you may find your answer.

Jack

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Tim .
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 2:39 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue

Hey all,

While trying to sort the valve on our upstairs toilet, the toilet itself now doesn't fully flush. The tank bits cycle, the toilet fills, but it only drains slowly. It doesn't "gurgle" (for lack of a better term) at the end.

This has been going on for over a week now so I doubt there is anything stuck. (no feminine products in use in our house any more so that is not an issue.) I've plunged the hell out of it, pushing down and also sucking up with plunger. I can't really get a snake to go very far into the trap so not much help there.

I remember reading years ago that a clogged or compromised vent can affect sink drainage. Is it possible that this issue is affecting this toilet? The sink and tub in the upstairs bathrrom are no affected. They both drain fine. Hell, nothing else in the house is affected.

thoughts please?
thanks
tim
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From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sat Aug 22 19:03:12 2020
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 21:03:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3dccbd2c-cb06-844f-f27f-5c43b4adc512@sackheads.org>

First question:? how many vent stacks do you have?? My house has two, 
one on each side of the house. Are you certain the toilet in question is 
connected to the same stack as the upstairs sink and tub?

A blocked vent can definitely lead to this behavior though if nothing 
else connected to that stack shows problems then the problem is probably 
somewhere between the stack and the toilet.

Is there any chance that a squirrel has crawled down the vent and into 
the toilet drain where it became stuck and drowned?? I've actually had a 
squirrel drown in one of my toilets.? I guess it climbed down the vent 
and up through the toilet drain.? The shape of the bowl prevented the 
squirrel from getting any leverage to open the lid so it drowned in the 
bowl. Chewed the hell out of the seat trying to get out, though.? Since 
then I put steel squirrel-guard caps on my vents.

If you're at your wits end, you might consider investing in a USB 
endoscope and fishing it down the toilet to see what's going on inside 
the pipe.? Most are waterproof.? I think mine is 15 feet long which 
should be more than enough to reach the vent stack.? The picture quality 
is comparable to an early 2000s webcam (ie. "crap") but it should be 
able to show you if something's blocking the flow...


On 2020-08-22 17:38, Tim . wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> While trying to sort the valve on our upstairs toilet, the toilet 
> itself now doesn't fully flush. The tank bits cycle, the toilet fills, 
> but it only drains slowly. It doesn't "gurgle" (for lack of a better 
> term) at the end.
>
> This has been going on for over a week now so I doubt there is 
> anything stuck. (no feminine products in use in our house any more so 
> that is not an issue.) I've plunged the hell out of it, pushing down 
> and also sucking up with plunger. I can't really get a snake to go 
> very far into the trap so not much help there.
>
> I remember reading years ago that a clogged or compromised vent can 
> affect sink drainage. Is it possible that this issue is affecting this 
> toilet? The sink and tub in the upstairs bathrrom are no affected. 
> They both drain fine. Hell, nothing else in the house is affected.
>
> thoughts please?
> thanks
> tim
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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>
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>

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From phoenix722 at comcast.net  Sat Aug 22 19:30:13 2020
From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:30:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB3151B734F59D6E70343C2ECDA8590@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <MWHPR06MB3151B734F59D6E70343C2ECDA8590@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6540e8bc-db2c-8c7f-f587-14d0dcc2ab4e@comcast.net>

Ah, children.? In my case it was a small spice can that just fit down 
the drain, but wouldn't go past the trap.? Had to take the toilet off 
just to find it.

Mike

On 8/22/2020 5:05 PM, Jack Brooks wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> I had that in one of my rentals.? I plunged, snaked as best as I could 
> and eventually pulled the toilet.? I check both ends for an 
> obstruction.? Eventually, I did notice something, really small which 
> was not white when looking in from the bowl side.? It was barely 
> visible deep in the toilet.? I could not get it out, but fortunately 
> had my 10 year old son with small hands.? It took a lot of begging, 
> promises that it was very clean and a promise of an ice cream 
> afterwards and he finally reached in and snagged a small toy that was 
> restricting flow.? He had no interest in keeping the toy. <grin>
>
> I suspect there is something that is blocking the flow, probably 
> originating from the bowl side.? Don?t pull the toilet, but do 
> whatever you can to see into the deeper parts of the toilet and you 
> may find your answer.
>
> Jack
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Tim .
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 22, 2020 2:39 PM
> *To:* shop-talk at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
>
> Hey all,
>
> While trying to sort the valve on our upstairs toilet, the toilet 
> itself now doesn't fully flush. The tank bits cycle, the toilet fills, 
> but it only drains slowly. It doesn't "gurgle" (for lack of a better 
> term) at the end.
>
> This has been going on for over a week now so I doubt there is 
> anything stuck. (no feminine products in use in our house any more so 
> that is not an issue.) I've plunged the hell out of it, pushing down 
> and also sucking up with plunger. I can't really get a snake to go 
> very far into the trap so not much help there.
>
> I remember reading years ago that a clogged or compromised vent can 
> affect sink drainage. Is it possible that this issue is affecting this 
> toilet? The sink and tub in the upstairs bathrrom are no affected. 
> They both drain fine. Hell, nothing else in the house is affected.
>
> thoughts please?
> thanks
>
> tim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/phoenix722 at comcast.net
>
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From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Aug 22 21:34:47 2020
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 23:34:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.n
 amprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20200822233107.04a849c0@cox.net>

At 05:38 PM 8/22/2020, Tim . wrote:

 >While trying to sort the valve on our upstairs toilet, the toilet 
itself now doesn't
 >fully flush. The tank bits cycle, the toilet fills, but it only 
drains slowly. It doesn't
 >"gurgle" (for lack of a better term) at the end. ......

Tim,

Does you toilet have holes around the upper rim?  Also check the bottom of the
bowl where there is the larger flush hole.  Are these clogged with 
calcium deposits.
I had a toilet years ago that got clogged up like that.

If you look in the tank when you flush the toilet does the water take 
a long time to
drain from the tank or does that go out quickly?  Could the be something stuck
in the water path between the tank and the bowl?

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/morgan
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If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Aug 23 12:28:30 2020
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 13:28:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <242C22CD-4AA0-4D5F-88EB-EBBB302AFBE7@gmail.com>



> On Aug 22, 2020, at 16:38, Tim . <tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey all, 
> 
> While trying to sort the valve on our upstairs toilet, the toilet itself now doesn't fully flush. The tank bits cycle, the toilet fills, but it only drains slowly. It doesn't "gurgle" (for lack of a better term) at the end. 
> 
> This has been going on for over a week now so I doubt there is anything stuck. (no feminine products in use in our house any more so that is not an issue.) I've plunged the hell out of it, pushing down and also sucking up with plunger. I can't really get a  snake to go very far into the trap so not much help there. 

Does the bowl empty properly if you pour a bucket of water in it?  If so, it is a problem with the non drain side. If not, it?s the drain side. I would start with a closet auger, which is the special snake for toilets.  (They?re cheap. Go buy one.).   It?s pretty common for a build up of toilet paper to cause slow
drainage. The auger takes care of that and will remove most other obstructions, as well. 
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From tjcora at icloud.com  Sun Aug 23 20:56:13 2020
From: tjcora at icloud.com (Tom Coradeschi)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 22:56:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
References: <AF88067F-8EA2-45A6-9ECA-4A3E8A17A894@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <BAB8ACB4-9634-453F-9C6F-FCF21E5AA339@icloud.com>

Thanks, all, for your recommendations!

AstroAI Digital Multimeter at 35 buck price point is on its way. Free return if I don?t like it, so...

?
Tom Coradeschi
tjcora at icloud.com


> On 21 Aug 2020, at 7:24 PM, Tom Coradeschi <tjcora at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> Good evening, all. So, my trusty craftsman multimeter has decided to give up the ghost and I?m seeking insights on what I might replace it with.
> 
> Looked at the Fluke website, and reminded myself why I bought the craftsman in the first place. Not saying the Fluke stuff isn?t rock solid, but value for the dollar spent when you?re a casual user really isn?t there. Applications are home and automotive in nature.
> 
> Basic functionality:
> AC/DC voltage, resistance/continuity are must haves
> thermocouple inputs are a highly rated nice to have
> Autoranging is also a must have
> 
> What are folks out there using that you would recommend?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ?
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora at icloud.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora at icloud.com
> 


From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Aug 24 14:50:40 2020
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:50:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimeter recommendations
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR06MB3151988174489983A7601217A8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR06MB3151597AC4B25F22206758ADA8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <71B971D6-FC88-4125-A961-655838FF83CB@icloud.com>
 <MWHPR06MB3151988174489983A7601217A8580@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <a07bf8e2-45d2-1174-05df-cc88076d0d3e@milleredp.com>

On 8/21/2020 8:19 PM, Jack Brooks wrote:
> Agreed 100%.  I do like being able to leave an HF meters with each of my projects, vehicles and toolboxes, but sometimes a "real" meter is needed, especially one with an Amp-Clamp.

Exactly.  Horses for courses.

Got a Wavetek, a couple HF, a Craftsman I got free...oh, and two old 40s 
Tripletts of my fathers I need to open up and make sure there's no 
batteries in there.  I do love the click of the rotary knob...

John.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 25 21:34:24 2020
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:34:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] another toilet issue
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR0401MB3670E75370D68BA7B8208580B4580@DM5PR0401MB3670.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <4a4d46dc-6849-feab-ef88-e6a9d43af56b@earthlink.net>

Tim - I have a toilet that acts similar when clogged.? The previous 
owner of my house remodeled the bathroom and moved the toilet. Since it 
is a downstairs bathroom, installing a vent on the new wall was a 
challenge, so it is actually unvented.? The sink and tub have never been 
a problem

If it starts to drain slow and is still draining enough to get down to 
the normal level, the first thing I try is to pour a 5 gallon bucket of 
water from chest level.? This makes for extra pressure and will clear a 
partial biological blockage.? Be prepared to stop the pour if the water 
backs up.

My second step is to let the bowl sit full of water almost to the bottom 
of the brim for an hour or so.? Sometimes this works enough to repeat 
the bucket of water.

My third step is the plunger.? I was told by a plumber to push the 
plunger down slowly then pull up fast.? The idea is that the blockage 
might be pulled up a little rather than be compacted.

I had a neighbor that lived alone and had a problem similar to yours.? 
His problem was the cap to a can of shaving cream stuck in the toilet trap.

If the above doesn't work, I second the reply to try a toilet auger.? It 
will clear blockage in the trap and the first foot or two of drain 
pipe.? I have an older version of this one 
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-3-ft-Toilet-Auger-82-972-111/301879203 
($10).

I also second the reply you had about the endoscope.? I have a wifi one 
that connects to my cell phone that was about $35.? I would expect that 
you should be able to push it through the toilet.? If it is safe to be 
on your roof, you could also run it down your vent stacks to look for 
any blockage.

Brian

On 8/22/2020 2:38 PM, Tim . wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> While trying to sort the valve on our upstairs toilet, the toilet 
> itself now doesn't fully flush. The tank bits cycle, the toilet fills, 
> but it only drains slowly. It doesn't "gurgle" (for lack of a better 
> term) at the end.
>
> This has been going on for over a week now so I doubt there is 
> anything stuck. (no feminine products in use in our house any more so 
> that is not an issue.) I've plunged the hell out of it, pushing down 
> and also sucking up with plunger. I can't really get a snake to go 
> very far into the trap so not much help there.
>
> I remember reading years ago that a clogged or compromised vent can 
> affect sink drainage. Is it possible that this issue is affecting this 
> toilet? The sink and tub in the upstairs bathrrom are no affected. 
> They both drain fine. Hell, nothing else in the house is affected.
>
> thoughts please?
> thanks
> tim
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
>

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Aug 31 15:56:16 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:56:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scale model car enthusiasts forum?
Message-ID: <CF2AF7D3-5769-45CF-A5E4-69709BDF8EB5@groupwbench.org>

It seems there'd be a few people here who like building plastic models. I'm selling my collection and was looking for an enthusiast's forum where I could list them. The most promising, the model cars magazine forum, doesn't allow buy/sell. Is there a good community board out there?

thanks,
jim

From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 19:17:28 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:17:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scale model car enthusiasts forum?
In-Reply-To: <CF2AF7D3-5769-45CF-A5E4-69709BDF8EB5@groupwbench.org>
References: <CF2AF7D3-5769-45CF-A5E4-69709BDF8EB5@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPzWLMpwikz-eY_1cuzk7pZS=sjZOz3idTm7QMSLrnFiw@mail.gmail.com>

Scale automobile models?  I know a guy I can ask.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 5:56 PM Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

> It seems there'd be a few people here who like building plastic models.
> I'm selling my collection and was looking for an enthusiast's forum where I
> could list them. The most promising, the model cars magazine forum, doesn't
> allow buy/sell. Is there a good community board out there?
>
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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