From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  1 09:34:03 2013
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 11:34:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality?
Message-ID: <SNT002-W213D1C182D24E28A29EAF59AFF0@phx.gbl>

Got a couple catalogs recently and was looking to pick up some "shop" related
clothing.  Free shipping expires in two weeks.
Anyone have opinions on the clothing quality or sizing?  Seems there are some
complaints online about their quality having fallen with alot of their stuff
being made in China.
Thanks

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Mar  1 12:39:40 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 19:39:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality?
In-Reply-To: <SNT002-W213D1C182D24E28A29EAF59AFF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <734879790.7625.1362166780654.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

My complaint has been that they are nowhere near Duluth.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

----- Original Message -----
> From: "PJ McGarvey" <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>
> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:34:03 AM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality?
> Got a couple catalogs recently and was looking to pick up some "shop"
> related
> clothing. Free shipping expires in two weeks.
> Anyone have opinions on the clothing quality or sizing? Seems there
> are some
> complaints online about their quality having fallen with alot of their
> stuff
> being made in China.
> Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Mar  1 19:04:31 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:04:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Duluth Trading - clothing quality?
Message-ID: <6a1b2eb5.575a9d.13d28d7e98d.Webtop.43@charter.net>

Meant to send this to the list not just the OP......




Welllll, since their warehouse is a mile from my house and their second 
brick and mortar store as well as their call center is just a little 
farther away I guess I could chime in....

I have gone to several of their tent sales that they have had every 
summer before they built the store in town here. I was mainly looking at 
tools and what not (and some of the coats) but seem to remember that my 
thoughts were towards "this stuff is cheap" (quality). The made in china 
thing really chafes but is also pretty tough to avoid.

I suppose with free shipping you could get one item and see if you like 
it.

tim


On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:34 AM, PJ McGarvey wrote:

> Got a couple catalogs recently and was looking to pick up some "shop" 
> related
> clothing.  Free shipping expires in two weeks.
> Anyone have opinions on the clothing quality or sizing?  Seems there 
> are some
> complaints online about their quality having fallen with alot of their 
> stuff
> being made in China.
> Thanks

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Fri Mar  1 22:51:40 2013
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:51:40 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] inexpensive nail guns
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1362164402.29492.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.9.1362164402.29492.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <4458884D60014A498A1E47BEB445109A@SusieandMarkPC>

I bought one like this, also on ebay, 7 or 8 years ago. There are always a
bunch of them up for sale. Built my house with it, and since then have run a
few boxes of nails through it (so far), still going strong.  I am a strong
believer in good used over crap new <insert heated discussion here>.  And in
oiling nail guns.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Bostitch-Framing-Nail-Gun-N79WW-28-degree-/2711
64188833?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f22a528a1


Mark Miller.

From bobkegel at comcast.net  Sat Mar  2 08:45:09 2013
From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:45:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Corrosion protection for tools
In-Reply-To: <5ECE883FF9CF42D0A8CEE045AE617165@StevePC>
References: <5ECE883FF9CF42D0A8CEE045AE617165@StevePC>
Message-ID: <281E85EA24CD42AA94D444E4DFCD901E@BigBlack>

I've sprayed Boeshield on my vise and some other tools. The film dries to a 
non-tacky finish with a slight gloss. I haven't used it on anything exposed 
to the weather, but so far, so good.

Bob K
Aberdeen, WA 

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Mar  2 10:42:12 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:42:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets
Message-ID: <OFC7275257.15F7B2A0-ON85257B22.0060EDC9-85257B22.0062B90A@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I'm thinking about upgrading my current shops work bench.

The area is my 'main' work surface.  Currently, I have a bunch of metal 
cabinets that came out of a hospital's ER room. They are study, but they 
don't hold alot of weight in the drawers.

So I was going to upgrade.

What I'm looking for is something like this...

>http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200581343_200581343<

But without the wheels, and no lip on the top (so I can put a wood counter 
top over it.), oh yeah, and about a 1/3rd of the price!

I can't find anything anywhere like this.  This is for a stationary 
cabinet.  Ideally I will have two of them, side by side.

I found a cheap one on sale...

>http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200582752_200582752<

But it doesn't look that sturdy.  Nor does it allow me to put them end to 
end (unless I cut the top down.)

So, does anyone know of a source to check for these?  Am I crazy for not 
needing a rolling toll cabinet?

TIA.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sat Mar  2 12:34:24 2013
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 14:34:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets
In-Reply-To: <OFC7275257.15F7B2A0-ON85257B22.0060EDC9-85257B22.0062B90A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC7275257.15F7B2A0-ON85257B22.0060EDC9-85257B22.0062B90A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CO==auWjqjbigmsJmf8D4_Tf-9cUfwdAuV42eNXEo1wUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> So, does anyone know of a source to check for these?  Am I crazy for not
> needing a rolling toll cabinet?


Here's a supplier of exactly what you want:
http://www.modulinecabinets.com/garage-drawer2.html

A few minutes on that site, and you'll feel a lot better about the
price of your rolling cabinet.

No, you aren't crazy for not needing wheels.  I spent 5 years as a
professional mechanic, and used the wheels sometimes; mainly because
time was money - literally.  Why take time to step for a tool when you
could just reach.  Of course, 90% of what I did was repetitive, so
there wasn't much contemplation required.

As a hobbyist mechanic, though, it's a different thing.  For most
folks, you are doing something you don't do very often, so it pays to
slow down a bit and ponder your next step, next process, next tool.
Also gives you a chance to swing by the chilly bin on your way from
car to toolbox.  And time isn't nearly as much of an issue when you
are doing something you enjoy....since I quit the life of the
schmieraffe and brought my tools home, I've used the wheels maybe
three times in 20 years, only when I rearranged the shop.

I'd look at pawn shops for used toolboxes, talk to the guy on the tool
truck if you can catch him, and study Craigslist in your area.  Be
patient, and a bargain will come to you eventually.  Most likely,
though, just after you bought that $1500 rolling box.

Curious about the ER cabinets - I've got some old metal laboratory
furniture, and it's pretty stout.  A lot better than the kitchen
cabinets I just bought down at the big box.  I'd be finding a way to
re-use what I already had, if it's possible...

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Mar  2 13:13:00 2013
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:13:00 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets
Message-ID: <20130302.151300.8840.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>

I will second Jeff's tip about Craigslist if you have the time.Another option
is there are likely some liquidation places in the NE.I recently saw a few
pieces on the Atlanta Craigslist that were listed by an industrial liquidator
in the SE and they seemed to have a large supply of used Vidmar cabinets at
attractive prices.That would probably be best for you - find a couple of
Vidmars at a good price used. Matt

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 14:34:24 -0500

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> So, does anyone know of a source to check for these?  Am I crazy for not
> needing a rolling toll cabinet?


Here's a supplier of exactly what you want:
http://www.modulinecabinets.com/garage-drawer2.html

A few minutes on that site, and you'll feel a lot better about the
price of your rolling cabinet.

No, you aren't crazy for not needing wheels.  I spent 5 years as a
professional mechanic, and used the wheels sometimes; mainly because
time was money - literally.  Why take time to step for a tool when you
could just reach.  Of course, 90% of what I did was repetitive, so
there wasn't much contemplation required.

As a hobbyist mechanic, though, it's a different thing.  For most
folks, you are doing something you don't do very often, so it pays to
slow down a bit and ponder your next step, next process, next tool.
Also gives you a chance to swing by the chilly bin on your way from
car to toolbox.  And time isn't nearly as much of an issue when you
are doing something you enjoy....since I quit the life of the
schmieraffe and brought my tools home, I've used the wheels maybe
three times in 20 years, only when I rearranged the shop.

I'd look at pawn shops for used toolboxes, talk to the guy on the tool
truck if you can catch him, and study Craigslist in your area.  Be
patient, and a bargain will come to you eventually.  Most likely,
though, just after you bought that $1500 rolling box.

Curious about the ER cabinets - I've got some old metal laboratory
furniture, and it's pretty stout.  A lot better than the kitchen
cabinets I just bought down at the big box.  I'd be finding a way to
re-use what I already had, if it's possible...

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sat Mar  2 15:25:16 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 17:25:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CO==auWjqjbigmsJmf8D4_Tf-9cUfwdAuV42eNXEo1wUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFC7275257.15F7B2A0-ON85257B22.0060EDC9-85257B22.0062B90A@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAO8Q7CO==auWjqjbigmsJmf8D4_Tf-9cUfwdAuV42eNXEo1wUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51327C4C.6060104@gmail.com>

I agree completely with Jeff, with an even more anti-wheel sentiment. I 
also worked as a mechanic, and the only time I've ever used the wheels 
was to roll the box into the shop when I started and out when I quit.

Likewise, I agree with the home mechanic sentiment too. I find the trips 
to the box for a new tool give me time to think about what I'm about to 
destructively disassemble next. And if it's something for which I really 
want to have 'x' set of tools with me, I far prefer a tray or small 
rolling cart to keep them on. The box itself it a huge pain in to 
actually move. So much so that I'll be doing away with the wheels 
entirely on the next box. It'll be easier to place without the wheels.

Scott

On 3/2/2013 2:34 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
> Here's a supplier of exactly what you want: 
> http://www.modulinecabinets.com/garage-drawer2.html A few minutes on 
> that site, and you'll feel a lot better about the price of your 
> rolling cabinet. No, you aren't crazy for not needing wheels. I spent 
> 5 years as a professional mechanic, and used the wheels sometimes; 
> mainly because time was money - literally. Why take time to step for a 
> tool when you could just reach. Of course, 90% of what I did was 
> repetitive, so there wasn't much contemplation required. As a hobbyist 
> mechanic, though, it's a different thing. For most folks, you are 
> doing something you don't do very often, so it pays to slow down a bit 
> and ponder your next step, next process, next tool. Also gives you a 
> chance to swing by the chilly bin on your way from car to toolbox. And 
> time isn't nearly as much of an issue when you are doing something you 
> enjoy....since I quit the life of the schmieraffe and brought my tools 
> home, I've used the wheels maybe three times in 20 years, only when I 
> rearranged the shop. I'd look at pawn shops for used toolboxes, talk 
> to the guy on the tool truck if you can catch him, and study 
> Craigslist in your area. Be patient, and a bargain will come to you 
> eventually. Most likely, though, just after you bought that $1500 
> rolling box. Curious about the ER cabinets - I've got some old metal 
> laboratory furniture, and it's pretty stout. A lot better than the 
> kitchen cabinets I just bought down at the big box. I'd be finding a 
> way to re-use what I already had, if it's possible... 

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Mar  2 16:07:36 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 16:07:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CO==auWjqjbigmsJmf8D4_Tf-9cUfwdAuV42eNXEo1wUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFC7275257.15F7B2A0-ON85257B22.0060EDC9-85257B22.0062B90A@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAO8Q7CO==auWjqjbigmsJmf8D4_Tf-9cUfwdAuV42eNXEo1wUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51328638.4030007@bradakis.com>

Rolling big tool boxes around rarely happens.  More likely a service
cart will do the trick as a handy, on the spot place to keep the tools
currently in use and the parts, spray cans, etc.

mjb.

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sat Mar  2 16:52:54 2013
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:52:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool cabinets
In-Reply-To: <51328638.4030007@bradakis.com>
References: <OFC7275257.15F7B2A0-ON85257B22.0060EDC9-85257B22.0062B90A@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAO8Q7CO==auWjqjbigmsJmf8D4_Tf-9cUfwdAuV42eNXEo1wUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<51328638.4030007@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPr9qSzHm1smjh7Or0XiBJrkcftqkbwBeoJo2NdMqR4tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:
> More likely a service
> cart will do the trick as a handy, on the spot place to keep the tools
> currently in use


Betraying my Northern European car roots, I've always wanted one of these:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16982

The guy who taught me to be a VW mechanic in my first job had one, and
it was the best compromise for mobility and storage that you could
want.

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Mar  2 18:37:29 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:37:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end
Message-ID: <OF1CB45EC3.23D8FACB-ON85257B23.000824B1-85257B23.000A6677@mail.megageek.com>

OK, so I was in Lowes today returning a carpet stretcher (found almost the 
same one at Horrible Freight for half the price.)

ANYWAY, I got to looking at the tool cabinets.  Their 'top of the line' 18 
draw 53" model was right there.  $1899, NO WAY.

So my, always wise, SO (who is doing much better- thanks for the support) 
told me to ask the guy if there were any ones with dents in it on 
clearance.

He shows me one about 1/2 the size for about $930.  I'm not interested. So 
I get to asking him about the big one (you know, the one with the built in 
electrical boxes and stereo system) and he asked me what I wanted to pay 
for it.

I told him, as little as possible.  He asks me if a 20% discount would be 
enough.  I tell him only if I can get my Veteran's discount and use my tax 
free status on it (I am a farm and all my tools are not taxed.)

He says, "Sure". 
I say, lets load it up. It was about $1360 even.

So I got this box...
>http://www.lowes.com/pd_351108-55738-TB53SS11_0__?productId=3439322&Ntt=tool+cabinets&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dtool%2Bcabinets&facetInfo=<

(Note, some of them come with refrigerators and that would be a complete 
waste for me.  Mine doesn't have it.)

Now, I'm still in the market for cabinets, but not nearly as urgent. 
(thanks for all the links.)

One last question, is there a 'logical' way to organize a big chest like 
this?  I mean there are obvious things like most used tools at the 
convenent level, but I was wondering if there was any pointers for someone 
setting up a new box.  BEFORE I add all my stuff and then have to 
rearrange it.

THANKS AGAIN GUYS!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From jniolon at att.net  Sat Mar  2 19:49:16 2013
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:49:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the  end
References: <OF1CB45EC3.23D8FACB-ON85257B23.000824B1-85257B23.000A6677@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <18A9C0D49FB743D4B08DA5FB1B50192E@john5043a2d406>

Eric...

head over to garagejournal.com and look at this thread..... over 2MILLION 
views and over 8K posts on every imaginable arrangement for tool box 
drawers....

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466&highlight=show+toolbox

there's lots of other arrangement threads behind their search engine.... 
don't plan anything else that day...

 and I recommend ERNST  socket and wrench holders...
and if you want to see mine... it's here

http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/tools/NEWTOOLPAGE.HTML

later, john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:37 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end


> OK, so I was in Lowes today returning a carpet stretcher (found almost the
> same one at Horrible Freight for half the price.)
>
> ANYWAY, I got to looking at the tool cabinets.  Their 'top of the line' 18
> draw 53" model was right there.  $1899, NO WAY.
>
> So my, always wise, SO (who is doing much better- thanks for the support)
> told me to ask the guy if there were any ones with dents in it on
> clearance.
>
> He shows me one about 1/2 the size for about $930.  I'm not interested. So
> I get to asking him about the big one (you know, the one with the built in
> electrical boxes and stereo system) and he asked me what I wanted to pay
> for it.
>
> I told him, as little as possible.  He asks me if a 20% discount would be
> enough.  I tell him only if I can get my Veteran's discount and use my tax
> free status on it (I am a farm and all my tools are not taxed.)
>
> He says, "Sure".
> I say, lets load it up. It was about $1360 even.
>
> So I got this box...
>>http://www.lowes.com/pd_351108-55738-TB53SS11_0__?productId=3439322&Ntt=tool+cabinets&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dtool%2Bcabinets&facetInfo=<
>
> (Note, some of them come with refrigerators and that would be a complete
> waste for me.  Mine doesn't have it.)
>
> Now, I'm still in the market for cabinets, but not nearly as urgent.
> (thanks for all the links.)
>
> One last question, is there a 'logical' way to organize a big chest like
> this?  I mean there are obvious things like most used tools at the
> convenent level, but I was wondering if there was any pointers for someone
> setting up a new box.  BEFORE I add all my stuff and then have to
> rearrange it.
>
> THANKS AGAIN GUYS!
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From jniolon at att.net  Sat Mar  2 19:55:44 2013
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:55:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw:  Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the  end
Message-ID: <219036870F5B4BDA8E387168F8FE05BB@john5043a2d406>

> Eric...
>
> head over to garagejournal.com and look at this thread..... over 2MILLION 
> views and over 8K posts on every imaginable arrangement for tool box 
> drawers....
>
> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466&highlight=show+toolbox
>
> there's lots of other arrangement threads behind their search engine.... 
> don't plan anything else that day...
>
> and I recommend ERNST  socket and wrench holders...
> and if you want to see mine... it's here
>
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/tools/NEWTOOLPAGE.HTML
>
> later, john
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <eric at megageek.com>
> To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
> Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:37 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool Cabinets, UPDATE with a question at the end
>
>
>> OK, so I was in Lowes today returning a carpet stretcher (found almost 
>> the
>> same one at Horrible Freight for half the price.)
>>
>> ANYWAY, I got to looking at the tool cabinets.  Their 'top of the line' 
>> 18
>> draw 53" model was right there.  $1899, NO WAY.
>>
>> So my, always wise, SO (who is doing much better- thanks for the support)
>> told me to ask the guy if there were any ones with dents in it on
>> clearance.
>>
>> He shows me one about 1/2 the size for about $930.  I'm not interested. 
>> So
>> I get to asking him about the big one (you know, the one with the built 
>> in
>> electrical boxes and stereo system) and he asked me what I wanted to pay
>> for it.
>>
>> I told him, as little as possible.  He asks me if a 20% discount would be
>> enough.  I tell him only if I can get my Veteran's discount and use my 
>> tax
>> free status on it (I am a farm and all my tools are not taxed.)
>>
>> He says, "Sure".
>> I say, lets load it up. It was about $1360 even.
>>
>> So I got this box...
>>>http://www.lowes.com/pd_351108-55738-TB53SS11_0__?productId=3439322&Ntt=tool+cabinets&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dtool%2Bcabinets&facetInfo=<
>>
>> (Note, some of them come with refrigerators and that would be a complete
>> waste for me.  Mine doesn't have it.)
>>
>> Now, I'm still in the market for cabinets, but not nearly as urgent.
>> (thanks for all the links.)
>>
>> One last question, is there a 'logical' way to organize a big chest like
>> this?  I mean there are obvious things like most used tools at the
>> convenent level, but I was wondering if there was any pointers for 
>> someone
>> setting up a new box.  BEFORE I add all my stuff and then have to
>> rearrange it.
>>
>> THANKS AGAIN GUYS!
>>
>> Eric P
>> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
>> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
>> Waldo Emerson
>> _______________________________________________

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Sat Mar  2 20:11:58 2013
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 19:11:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Corrosion protection for tools
In-Reply-To: <281E85EA24CD42AA94D444E4DFCD901E@BigBlack>
References: <5ECE883FF9CF42D0A8CEE045AE617165@StevePC>
	<281E85EA24CD42AA94D444E4DFCD901E@BigBlack>
Message-ID: <C4F1A43F289E4F9C9963243527B95571@StevePC>

Thanks Bob,
I stopped on my way home today at the
local gun shop and picked up a small container.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From: Bob Kegel
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:45 AM
To: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA ; Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Corrosion protection for tools

I've sprayed Boeshield on my vise and some other tools. The film dries to a
non-tacky finish with a slight gloss. I haven't used it on anything exposed
to the weather, but so far, so good.

Bob K
Aberdeen, WA





-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6132 - Release Date: 02/25/13

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Mar  2 23:07:28 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 01:07:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings
Message-ID: <0MJ200513MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Can anyone identify the fittings used in constructing the pipe 
structure on this trailer?

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KmtsvfHSiNNw2O-Dpe9NjtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

I have found similar things, but the fittings seem smaller and they 
attach differently.  Thanks.

If you have trouble with that link, let me know and I'll try something else.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Mar  3 01:46:01 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 00:46:01 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings
In-Reply-To: <0MJ200513MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <B8.F0.25887.9CD03315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Can anyone identify the fittings used in constructing the 
> pipe structure on this trailer?
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KmtsvfHSiNNw2O-Dpe9NjtMT
> jNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink


I can't really tell the scale (they come in various sizes), but these look
pretty much the same to me
http://www.ysbw.com/Canopy-Fittings-1-Inch-s/7.htm

The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I believe
were originally a cross
http://goo.gl/yOALy
And for some reason the 4th leg was cut off.

-- Randall 

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Mar  3 05:05:35 2013
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 12:05:35 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings
In-Reply-To: <B8.F0.25887.9CD03315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <B8.F0.25887.9CD03315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <51333C8F.7070604@landform.co.uk>

Randall wrote:
> The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I 
> believe were originally a cross http://goo.gl/yOALy And for some 
> reason the 4th leg was cut off. --

I suppose it's redundant and you don't want it sticking you in the eye 
each time you walk past.

Useful range of fittings. Substitute grubscrews for the eyebolts and 
you'd have a nice clean installation.

NickBrearley

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Mar  3 05:58:40 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 07:58:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings
In-Reply-To: <B8.F0.25887.9CD03315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <0MJ200513MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<B8.F0.25887.9CD03315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0MJ3000BK5ERKSG0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Those sure do look like them.  Thank you very much.  I noticed those 
in the back as well.  I assumed that it was just a matter of making 
due with       what was on hand.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 03:46 AM 3/3/2013, Randall wrote:
> > Can anyone identify the fittings used in constructing the
> > pipe structure on this trailer?
> >
> > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KmtsvfHSiNNw2O-Dpe9NjtMT
> > jNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
>
>
>I can't really tell the scale (they come in various sizes), but these look
>pretty much the same to me
>http://www.ysbw.com/Canopy-Fittings-1-Inch-s/7.htm
>
>The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I believe
>were originally a cross
>http://goo.gl/yOALy
>And for some reason the 4th leg was cut off.
>
>-- Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Mar  3 06:01:58 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:01:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings
In-Reply-To: <51333C8F.7070604@landform.co.uk>
References: <B8.F0.25887.9CD03315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
	<51333C8F.7070604@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0MJ300HH35LEHT30@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I suppose it depends on how permanent the installation 
is.  Grubscrews would look cleaner, but the eye bolts are probably 
more convenient if it is going to be erected and removed often.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 07:05 AM 3/3/2013, nick brearley wrote:
>Randall wrote:
>>The jokers are those tees in the back with the open hole; which I 
>>believe were originally a cross http://goo.gl/yOALy And for some 
>>reason the 4th leg was cut off. --
>
>I suppose it's redundant and you don't want it sticking you in the 
>eye each time you walk past.
>
>Useful range of fittings. Substitute grubscrews for the eyebolts and 
>you'd have a nice clean installation.
>
>NickBrearley
>______________________________________

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Mar  3 06:11:31 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:11:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings
In-Reply-To: <0MJ200513MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0MJ200513MCT4210@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <0MJ300MWZ5ZL20D0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I think the key was calling them "canopy fittings."  My google 
searches weren't finding the right thing without knowing the correct 
term.  Thanks.

-Steve

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Mar  3 06:25:46 2013
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 13:25:46 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe structure fittings
In-Reply-To: <0MJ300HH35LEHT30@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <B8.F0.25887.9CD03315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
	<51333C8F.7070604@landform.co.uk>
	<0MJ300HH35LEHT30@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <51334F5A.5080009@landform.co.uk>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> I suppose it depends on how permanent the installation is.  Grubscrews 
> would look cleaner, but the eye bolts are probably more convenient if 
> it is going to be erected and removed often.
>

True. And if you want to secure a canvas eyebolts are the way to go.

I was impressed with the length of the legs which should make the 
structure more rigid than conventional pipe clamps. But in turn the 
welds had better be strong.

Nick Brearley

From mark at bradakis.com  Sun Mar  3 16:33:41 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 16:33:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes?
Message-ID: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com>

I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes.
Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, 
floppy
15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of kitchen
drain.  Anyone have any experience with such tools?

mjb.

From lee at automate-it.com  Tue Mar  5 08:59:34 2013
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:59:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair
Message-ID: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

While I prefer to replace plastic lenses, etc., the owner of the car I care
for thinks that the price of a new rear taillight assembly is not worth the
expense. She found a web site that describes a process of using some kind of
epoxy to do a repair for small holes in a lens - but the site does not give
the name or manufacturer of the "catalyst-activated liquid". See it here:
  http://goo.gl/ex7Go
A search of the online versions of all of my favorite FLAPS did not turn up
such a beast, just the "repair tape" material - which I refuse to use. Any
ideas about this type of fix-it kit?

On a related note, I also detest relying on rear-view cameras to do one's
backward navigation, and always turn around and get a full 180-deg-plus view
of the target area. SWMBO would have done well to heed my warnings about this
rather than catch the corner of her sister's BloatoMobile ...

Lee

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Tue Mar  5 09:12:23 2013
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 08:12:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair
In-Reply-To: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <B5AB1F24-7B82-4763-8716-CBCD21891C31@mac.com>

On Mar 5, 2013, at 7:59 AM, Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com> wrote:

> On a related note, I also detest relying on rear-view cameras to do one's
> backward navigation, and always turn around and get a full 180-deg-plus
view
> of the target area. SWMBO would have done well to heed my warnings about
this
> rather than catch the corner of her sister's BloatoMobile ...

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Mar  5 10:44:40 2013
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:44:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair
In-Reply-To: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <915D147C259D4FA28A6D7BD2B2CCE583@EricJRussellPC>

Shop talk - faster than google?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plastic+lens+repair+kit

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Daniels" <lee at automate-it.com>
To: <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:59 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair


> While I prefer to replace plastic lenses, etc., the owner of the car I 
> care
> for thinks that the price of a new rear taillight assembly is not worth 
> the
> expense. She found a web site that describes a process of using some kind 
> of
> epoxy to do a repair for small holes in a lens - but the site does not 
> give
> the name or manufacturer of the "catalyst-activated liquid". See it here:
>  http://goo.gl/ex7Go
> A search of the online versions of all of my favorite FLAPS did not turn 
> up
> such a beast, just the "repair tape" material - which I refuse to use. Any
> ideas about this type of fix-it kit?

From arvidj at visi.com  Tue Mar  5 10:52:37 2013
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:52:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair
In-Reply-To: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <072FE24B87914EEAB979FD47C203B886@HP62011>

Maybe something like this ...

http://www.rvupgradestore.com/Plastic-Lens-Repair-Kit-p/38-8453.htm



-----Original Message----- 
From: Lee Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 9:59 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair

While I prefer to replace plastic lenses, etc., the owner of the car I care
for thinks that the price of a new rear taillight assembly is not worth the
expense. She found a web site that describes a process of using some kind of
epoxy to do a repair for small holes in a lens - but the site does not give
the name or manufacturer of the "catalyst-activated liquid". See it here:
  http://goo.gl/ex7Go
A search of the online versions of all of my favorite FLAPS did not turn up
such a beast, just the "repair tape" material - which I refuse to use. Any
ideas about this type of fix-it kit?

On a related note, I also detest relying on rear-view cameras to do one's
backward navigation, and always turn around and get a full 180-deg-plus view
of the target area. SWMBO would have done well to heed my warnings about 
this
rather than catch the corner of her sister's BloatoMobile ...

Lee
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Mar  5 11:21:49 2013
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:21:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes?
In-Reply-To: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com>
References: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5sup1GABs2n=QMHGVZOkY3Q=ro2uYfCptV2pvvP3E1Sx48A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:
> I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes.
> Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose,
> floppy
> 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of kitchen
> drain.  Anyone have any experience with such tools?
>

The ones you crank by hand are not any better than a floppy one,
except for storage.  They're hard to crank and feed at the same time.
Ones that attach to a drill are better, but I don't know what the
currently available ones are like.  Some of the ones I've seen looked
like plastic garbage.....




> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From KVacek at Ameritech.net  Tue Mar  5 12:11:28 2013
From: KVacek at Ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:11:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes?
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5sup1GABs2n=QMHGVZOkY3Q=ro2uYfCptV2pvvP3E1Sx48A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com>
	<CA+k5sup1GABs2n=QMHGVZOkY3Q=ro2uYfCptV2pvvP3E1Sx48A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101ce19d5$3ddec0a0$b99c41e0$@Ameritech.net>

I bought a Horrible Freight drill-driven snake for a one-time job at one of
our daughters' house.  The concept is great, and actually, given that the
problems there were minor, the fact that it was a throwaway tool worked out
pretty well,  The HF snake has almost no temper, and soon was a kinked mess,
but it got the job done before it finally broke.  Decent steel would have
made all the difference in the world.  On the bright side I didn't have to
clean it when I was done - it went right into the garbage can, mess and all.

The concept of a snake in a holder that you drive with a drill is great for
a sink or tub drain.  You let out as much rod as you can deal with and when
that's all in the drain you feed a little more.  No long snake whipping
around and flinging water (etc.) all over the place.  For a 4" toilet or
floor drain you'd probably need something serious, though.

Karl

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:
> I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes.
> Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, 
> floppy
> 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of 
> kitchen drain.  Anyone have any experience with such tools?

From rkg at teleport.com  Tue Mar  5 12:13:29 2013
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 11:13:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drain snakes?
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5sup1GABs2n=QMHGVZOkY3Q=ro2uYfCptV2pvvP3E1Sx48A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5133DDD5.4040703@bradakis.com>
	<CA+k5sup1GABs2n=QMHGVZOkY3Q=ro2uYfCptV2pvvP3E1Sx48A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <513643D9.5060107@teleport.com>

I've had fair luck with the ridgid model you can optionally attach to a 
drill, though because of my house layout I need a longer one for many of 
the drains, which sucks because
they seem to charge like a wounded bull for anything longer - its 
unfortunate you can't seem to find those old hand cranked 50' snakes 
with the drum, etc. anymore :-/

Good Luck with your choice,

rkg
(Richard George)
On 3/5/2013 10:21 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:
>> I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes.
>> Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose,
>> floppy
>> 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of kitchen
>> drain.  Anyone have any experience with such tools?
>>
> The ones you crank by hand are not any better than a floppy one,
> except for storage.  They're hard to crank and feed at the same time.
> Ones that attach to a drill are better, but I don't know what the
> currently available ones are like.  Some of the ones I've seen looked
> like plastic garbage.....
>
>
>
>
>> mjb.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com

From lee at automate-it.com  Tue Mar  5 12:15:48 2013
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:15:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tail light lens repair
In-Reply-To: <915D147C259D4FA28A6D7BD2B2CCE583@EricJRussellPC>
References: <de06d987a62a64005d2a9287f0b11334.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
	<915D147C259D4FA28A6D7BD2B2CCE583@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <bf984cfb5c279618a0b77582f66c7309.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

Ahh, it all depends on how you phrase your search. I used the term "plastic
tail light lens repair" and did not get these kits listed!!!  THANKS.

> Shop talk - faster than google?
>
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plastic+lens+repair+kit
>
> Eric Russell

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Mar  5 21:03:08 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:03:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] FW:  Drain snakes?
Message-ID: <B5.74.25887.5FFB6315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> I was just at Home Depot and saw they had Ridgid Kwik-Spin drain snakes.
> Looks like it would be a fair bit easier to use than my current loose, 
> floppy
> 15 foot snake that I often use for this one troublesome section of 
> kitchen drain.  Anyone have any experience with such tools?
>

I have a snake somewhat similar to the Kwik-Spin, but without the fancy
trigger.  Works pretty good for me.  The trick is to have only a few inches
of cable exposed between the holder and the drain, so you can get some
torque on the cable without it flopping around.  Helps the end screw it's
way around corners and into obstructions.

FWIW though, about 10 years ago I got disgusted with our troublesome section
of kitchen drain (still running slow after using the full length of the
hand-held unit) and rented a big 100' power rooter from Home Depot.  Ran the
entire length in (although the end must've surely been sticking out into the
main line), had a terrible time pulling it back out.  (Fortunately, my
daughter's boyfriend at the time is built like a linebacker and was able to
pull it back.)  The remarkable part is that we have never had a problem with
that drain since!  Not sure what happened, must've been a partial clog
farther out that was helping it clog closer in or something.  Whatever it
was, I'm sure pleased with the result.

I had tried having the pros out before, but they would only go in about 30'
and call it good enough.  The drain would run clear, but start running slow
again within a year.  They blamed roots and the garbage disposal; but were
never able to pull any roots or garbage out of the drain.

Randall

From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Mar  6 18:12:32 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:12:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] By the way
Message-ID: <5137E980.2080907@bradakis.com>

http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=141

mjb.

From Bob at texmog.com  Wed Mar  6 20:17:52 2013
From: Bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:17:52 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke
Message-ID: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>

Tonight I was curled up with the Internet looking at lawn edgers trying to
choose one to buy.
Based on my good experience with an Echo trimmer and Poulan chainsaw I found
myself limiting my search to only 2 stroke engines.  This is countered by my
experience with a Ryobi 4 stroke trimmer that was nothing but trouble.

  This got me to thinking back as a kid as to how two stroke engines were used
primarily in outboards,  cheap lawn mowers and chain saws, all of which had
horrible reputations for not starting.   (model air plane engines don't count
since the fuel is premixed)

So to my question,  have two stroke engines improved that much over the years
or did I just grow up in a town in which no one knew how to properly mix oil
and gas but two stroke owners sure knew how to swear?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Mar  6 20:41:52 2013
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 22:41:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke
In-Reply-To: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>
References: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9Xf3qOPjk1bwLiBSvmKDr1vxiz3WEV8vt0nM0h-XOuepg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a cheapo 10-year-old Murray lawn mower with a 4-stroke B&S engine,
that has never failed to start on the first pull, even after months of
storage. I also have a 2-stroke Ryobi trimmer that is always a pain to
start.

I suspect that any engine that is designed to operate in a fixed position
with gravity fuel feed (e.g. lawn mower) will be easier to start that an
engine that has to run when moved around (e.g. chainsaw), because of the
carb design.

Doug

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Bob Nogueira <Bob at texmog.com> wrote:

> Tonight I was curled up with the Internet looking at lawn edgers trying to
> choose one to buy.
> Based on my good experience with an Echo trimmer and Poulan chainsaw I
> found
> myself limiting my search to only 2 stroke engines.  This is countered by
> my
> experience with a Ryobi 4 stroke trimmer that was nothing but trouble.
>
>   This got me to thinking back as a kid as to how two stroke engines were
> used
> primarily in outboards,  cheap lawn mowers and chain saws, all of which had
> horrible reputations for not starting.   (model air plane engines don't
> count
> since the fuel is premixed)
>
> So to my question,  have two stroke engines improved that much over the
> years
> or did I just grow up in a town in which no one knew how to properly mix
> oil
> and gas but two stroke owners sure knew how to swear?

From KVacek at Ameritech.net  Wed Mar  6 20:57:52 2013
From: KVacek at Ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:57:52 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke
In-Reply-To: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>
References: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>
Message-ID: <001f01ce1ae7$f1c06b10$d5414130$@Ameritech.net>

If you consider Echo, check the fine print in the instructions and see if it
requires 89-octane gasoline.  Bizarre requirement, but necessary for their
warrantee, at least a few years ago.  My 1970 Echo blower still runs fine on
anything, but my 2005 blower/vac/bagger died from the wrong gas before I
even knew of the requirement.

And like others have said, current 2-cycles can be a pain to start, not to
mention the stink.  4-cycles seem to fare better, though old gas is still an
issue for me.  Sta-Bil doesn't seem to help that.

Karl


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Nogueira
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

Tonight I was curled up with the Internet looking at lawn edgers trying to
choose one to buy.
Based on my good experience with an Echo trimmer and Poulan chainsaw I found
myself limiting my search to only 2 stroke engines.  This is countered by my
experience with a Ryobi 4 stroke trimmer that was nothing but trouble.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Mar  7 01:17:53 2013
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 03:17:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke
In-Reply-To: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>
References: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>
Message-ID: <51384D31.70305@xxiii.com>

On 3/6/2013 10:17 PM, Bob Nogueira wrote:
>    This got me to thinking back as a kid as to how two stroke engines were used
> primarily in outboards,  cheap lawn mowers and chain saws, all of which had
> horrible reputations for not starting.   (model air plane engines don't count
> since the fuel is premixed)
>
> So to my question,  have two stroke engines improved that much over the years
> or did I just grow up in a town in which no one knew how to properly mix oil
> and gas but two stroke owners sure knew how to swear?

I have a 2 stroke Ryobi trimmer, Echo chain saw, 70cc small Yamaha bike, 
and formerly an MTD snow blower. With basic maintenance and good fuel 
mix, and some RTFM they all start & run great. The small ones are rather 
picky about the starting procedure, esp the Ryobi, but it's right on the 
label and if followed, they start with no drama. They're lighter, 
simpler, and make more power for their size than a 4. But as ya' 
probably know, the torque & power are in a narrower, higher rpm range. 
Good for something you tend to run WOT. Don't think it would be great in 
a lawn mower.

I buy Yamaha's "Yamalube 2S" for the bike, and use it in the others, 
too. Supposedly semi-synthetic. It burns a lot cleaner than the usual 
power equipment-grade oil.

-Wayne

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Mar  7 01:23:44 2013
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 03:23:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 stroke vs 4 stroke
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9Xf3qOPjk1bwLiBSvmKDr1vxiz3WEV8vt0nM0h-XOuepg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A548A8DA-6A30-43B8-A5D5-7B9AF449170D@texmog.com>
	<CAOtbU9Xf3qOPjk1bwLiBSvmKDr1vxiz3WEV8vt0nM0h-XOuepg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51384E90.1090503@xxiii.com>

On 3/6/2013 10:41 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
> I suspect that any engine that is designed to operate in a fixed position
> with gravity fuel feed (e.g. lawn mower) will be easier to start that an
> engine that has to run when moved around (e.g. chainsaw), because of the
> carb design.

2-S Power Equipment, like saws or trimmers, has a "pumper carb". A 
little rubber diaphragm & check valve use engine vacuum pulses to suck 
fuel from the tank and keep the carb constantly full, and pump any 
excess back to the tank. Roll around things like mowers or bikes appear 
to use regular gravity fed float bowls.

Had to rebuild the carb' on the Ryobi last summer. Was surprisingly 
easy! (and I usually trash any carb I touch) $7 kit, clean it up, dial 
two screws and runnin' like new  :)

-Wayne

From mgowen55 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  7 08:20:48 2013
From: mgowen55 at hotmail.com (Glenn Owen)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:20:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal
Message-ID: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>

I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed
with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed
and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and
prepping for a new shower install.  I understand this is a dusty and not so
easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have
experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job.
Youtube did not provide much help that I could find.
Any help is much appreciated.

Glenn

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Mar  7 08:27:30 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 10:27:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal
In-Reply-To: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5138B1E2.3040209@gmail.com>

Mine wasn't tile over mortar and lath, so I don't know if it's worse or 
not. I just opened a window and put a fan it it, and wore a mask. I'm 
about to do it again, so I'll pay more attention this time to see how 
bad it really is.

A 5-pound sledge was my go-to tool. Just have at it.

On 3/7/2013 10:20 AM, Glenn Owen wrote:
> I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed
> with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed
> and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and
> prepping for a new shower install.  I understand this is a dusty and not so
> easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have
> experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job.
> Youtube did not provide much help that I could find.
> Any help is much appreciated.

From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net  Thu Mar  7 08:29:43 2013
From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:29:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal
In-Reply-To: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <334343156.153604.1362670183159.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

I used a large sledgehammer, a small sledgehammer, a flat bar and a good crow bar. Eye protection and a GOOD dust mask are critical. Make sure you seal off the bathroom door opening really well as otherwise you will have dust everywhere. Keep in mind that the mortar may have some nasty stuff in it from that time, so you really do not want dust from it in your living space. 


I found once you punch through the face and get into a stud cavity you can use the flat bar or crow bar to take off large areas of tile and mortar easily. 


Good luck. 


Tom 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Owen" <mgowen55 at hotmail.com> 
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:20:48 AM 
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal 

I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed 
with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed 
and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and 
prepping for a new shower install. I understand this is a dusty and not so 
easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have 
experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job. 
Youtube did not provide much help that I could find. 
Any help is much appreciated. 

Glenn 
_______________________________________________ 

Shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html 
Suggested annual donation $12.96 
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive 
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums 
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net 

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  7 08:40:10 2013
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:40:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal
In-Reply-To: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SNT002-W4936BCC147B008829E2EBC9AE50@phx.gbl>

Did this a few years back, though I needed to protect the tub, which was the
hardest part of the demolition... which you don't need to worry about.
I didn't have one then, but I have a oscillating multi tool now that comes
with a grout removal bit.  A sawzall will probably make more dust and possibly
do more damage from vibration to surrounding structure... if that matters..
same with a hammer or sledge.  Another idea might be an air hammer which is an
underrated tool in my opinion that I often forget about :-)
My recollection is that once I had way to get behind the tile/backer/lath/etc
that I could peel it off easily with my hands into chunks that would fit into
a trash bag.  Again, less dust/noise/damage this way.
-PJ

> From: mgowen55 at hotmail.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:20:48 -0500
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal
>
> I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar
bed
> with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar
bed
> and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub
and
> prepping for a new shower install.  I understand this is a dusty and not so
> easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have
> experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo
job.
> Youtube did not provide much help that I could find.
> Any help is much appreciated.
>
> Glenn

From KVacek at Ameritech.net  Thu Mar  7 09:12:46 2013
From: KVacek at Ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:12:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger?
In-Reply-To: <B8.EE.04559.92FAD215@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <000c01ce149c$19504df0$4bf0e9d0$@Ameritech.net>
	<B8.EE.04559.92FAD215@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <003501ce1b4e$9b67e740$d237b5c0$@Ameritech.net>

I bought the stud-mount diodes Randall suggested from Surplus Electronics.
They arrived yesterday and I put them in.  But the outputs were pretty much
the same as before I changed the diodes.  Max DC out in "Charge" was only
around 11 volts, with 4 to 6 volts AC, which I took as indicating a bad
diode as before.

After stewing all night and checking this and that, I finally had a
fortuitous stroke of near-average intelligence, attached it to a battery,
and checked again.  D'oh - it's fine.

Are open-circuit voltages in battery chargers always misleading?  I didn't
expect the transformer output to go up with a load.  Doorbell and toy train
transformers don't seem to do that.

Anyway, it's working again - thanks to all!

Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Randall
<snip>
here's some that should be good enough.  60 amps continuous, over 1000 amps
peak. $3 each.
<snip>

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Mar  7 09:27:55 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:27:55 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger?
In-Reply-To: <003501ce1b4e$9b67e740$d237b5c0$@Ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <76.C6.25887.100C8315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

Think of the output of the transformer as a sine wave.  It goes smoothly
from peak to peak, but spends very little time at each peak.  Diodes only
conduct when the anode is more positive than the cathode.  So in a battery
charger, the diodes only conduct (to produce output) when the voltage is
near the peak, higher than the battery voltage.  The rest of the time, you
are reading battery voltage.  Without the battery, the average voltage is
much lower.

-- Randall 

From KVacek at Ameritech.net  Thu Mar  7 11:22:44 2013
From: KVacek at Ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 12:22:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger?
In-Reply-To: <76.C6.25887.100C8315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <003501ce1b4e$9b67e740$d237b5c0$@Ameritech.net>
	<76.C6.25887.100C8315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001601ce1b60$c36157b0$4a240710$@Ameritech.net>

So if I measured min/max rather than just the default voltage (rms on my
Fluke), I should see something like the 15 volts it's currently showing,
while charging a very dead battery ?

Also - I'm still seeing a little under half a volt AC at the battery.
Normal?

Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Randall
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger?

Think of the output of the transformer as a sine wave.  It goes smoothly
from peak to peak, but spends very little time at each peak.  Diodes only
conduct when the anode is more positive than the cathode.  So in a battery
charger, the diodes only conduct (to produce output) when the voltage is
near the peak, higher than the battery voltage.  The rest of the time, you
are reading battery voltage.  Without the battery, the average voltage is
much lower.

-- Randall 

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Mar  7 12:56:35 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:56:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal
Message-ID: <70edc28f.5559a9.13d466d3785.Webtop.47@charter.net>

Above anything else I'd recommend a HEPA filtered respirator mask just 
to make sure you don't inhale anything potentially toxic.
tim


On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Glenn Owen wrote:

> I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a 
> mortar bed
> with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the 
> mortar bed
> and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) 
> tub and
> prepping for a new shower install.  I understand this is a dusty and 
> not so
> easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have
> experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a 
> demo job.
> Youtube did not provide much help that I could find.
> Any help is much appreciated.
>
> Glenn
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Mar  7 16:59:57 2013
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:59:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger?
In-Reply-To: <003501ce1b4e$9b67e740$d237b5c0$@Ameritech.net>
References: <000c01ce149c$19504df0$4bf0e9d0$@Ameritech.net><B8.EE.04559.92FAD215@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
	<003501ce1b4e$9b67e740$d237b5c0$@Ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9F2FF10B486144CAA5C58469F9551908@AcerNetbook>

>After stewing all night and checking this and that, I finally had a

>fortuitous stroke of near-average intelligence, attached it to a battery,

>and checked again.  D'oh - it's fine.

 

>Are open-circuit voltages in battery chargers 

>always misleading?  I didn't expect the transformer 

>output to go up with a load.  Doorbell and toy train 

>transformers don't seem to do that.

 

Karl,

 

I did the same thing with a furnace motor I used to build a rotary tumbler.
It would only spin at 600 RPM without a load.  Once I put the fan back on,
it went right up to 1,170, the right speed for the winding I selected

 

Jack.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  7 21:06:35 2013
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 20:06:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wall Tile Removal
In-Reply-To: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU176-DS222DE36B265A97D798DB15D6E50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <513963CB.80107@earthlink.net>

Glenn - Most importantly, you need to keep the dust out of your lungs 
and the rest of the house. I recommend a respirator that you can pick up 
for under $30 at lots of places. Also, seal the door with plastic or put 
a fan in the window sucking out to keep the dust out of the house. Also 
add eye protection and hearing protection if using power tools.

If you have plaster walls on the other side of the tile that you don't 
want to disturb, I'd use caution with a big sledge hammer. Someone else 
mentioned a grout blade in an oscillating cutter. While they do work 
well and are easy to control, for demo, I recommend a diamond blade in 
an angle grinder because it is much faster. Wear gloves. Do a vertical 
cut down the center of the stud bays following a grout line. If the tile 
goes to the ceiling, consider a horizontal cut near the top so you don't 
mess up the ceiling too much. You can then push in and pry out to pop of 
the tile in 16" wide segments.

Brian

On 3/7/2013 7:20 AM, Glenn Owen wrote:
> I have a circa 1964 house - baths have ceramic tile walls set on a mortar bed
> with metal lath. I want to remove all the old tile along with the mortar bed
> and lath down to the naked studs to make way for removing the (pink) tub and
> prepping for a new shower install.  I understand this is a dusty and not so
> easy task. I can handle the dust, but does any one have
> experience/recommendations on tools and techniques to use for such a demo job.
> Youtube did not provide much help that I could find.
> Any help is much appreciated.
>
> Glenn
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Mar  7 22:20:52 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:20:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which diodes for a battery charger?
In-Reply-To: <001601ce1b60$c36157b0$4a240710$@Ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <C6.87.11869.A2579315@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> So if I measured min/max rather than just the default voltage 
> (rms on my Fluke), I should see something like the 15 volts 
> it's currently showing, while charging a very dead battery ?

Yup.  Open circuit (without the battery), min would be zero, max probably
closer to 18 volts.

> Also - I'm still seeing a little under half a volt AC at the battery.
> Normal?

Yup again.  Remember the charger is only putting out pulses of charging
current at the peak of each 120 Hz half wave.  Those pulses are higher
voltage than your battery, so the voltage drops off between pulses.  On the
AC setting, your voltmeter is seeing the pulses as AC.

Although not strictly correct, the diagram and waveforms shown here:
http://goo.gl/iwukv
under "A Single Capacitor" are pretty close to what is happening, with your
battery playing the part of the capacitor shown in that circuit.

-- Randall 

From lee at automate-it.com  Mon Mar 11 19:38:48 2013
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:38:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery
Message-ID: <d725f343141ab49e7e614a7296b549ce.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

Recalling discussions here on replacing the actual NiCd cells in a cordless
tool battery, I came across a "rebuild kit" for my Milwaukee 18V battery. See
here:
  http://amzn.com/B008NETIIU
At $43.50 this is a lot better price than I could get on a replacement battery
- even the off-brand replacements. The reviews are very good for this item;
I'll try to remember to "review" it here once I've received it and tried it
out.

 - Lee

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Mar 11 19:47:26 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:47:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery
In-Reply-To: <d725f343141ab49e7e614a7296b549ce.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <d725f343141ab49e7e614a7296b549ce.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <513E892E.4010509@bradakis.com>

Interesting.  I have a few dead Craftsman 19.2 V packs that would be 
nice to save.
I'll have to poke around.

mjb.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Mar 11 19:46:43 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 21:46:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery
In-Reply-To: <d725f343141ab49e7e614a7296b549ce.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <d725f343141ab49e7e614a7296b549ce.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <513E8903.5070103@gmail.com>

Please do. I've got at least six (and maybe eight) Milwaukee 18v packs 
in the house. So many (and so dead) that I've started to lose track of them.

On 3/11/2013 9:38 PM, Lee Daniels wrote:
> Recalling discussions here on replacing the actual NiCd cells in a cordless
> tool battery, I came across a "rebuild kit" for my Milwaukee 18V battery. See
> here:
>    http://amzn.com/B008NETIIU
> At $43.50 this is a lot better price than I could get on a replacement battery
> - even the off-brand replacements. The reviews are very good for this item;
> I'll try to remember to "review" it here once I've received it and tried it
> out.

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Tue Mar 12 16:11:35 2013
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:11:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
Message-ID: <8817E81B-3617-4109-A9C6-0C046CC6ACB4@mac.com>

I'm looking at putting a oil pressure gauge in my TR8.  I've decided that an
electric gauge would be preferable over running a line of hot oil into the
passenger compartment.

I've located a Jaguar gauge that looks good in the instrument panel (in place
of the clock), so now I need a sender.  I've identified what I believe is the
correct sender, with the following specs:

0 PSI - 250-285 Ohms
10 PSI - 250-275 Ohms
60 PSI - 85-115 Ohms

(seems like a lot of overlap at the low end!)

Since the sender is around $40, I'd like to verify that it is right for my
gauge, plus I would like to verify the gauge actually works.  To that end,
need a way to setup resistance values in that range.  My first thought was a
potentiometer, but looking at Radio Shack, they are listed as "5K" and "10K"
ohms, but no more details.  I assume these would be 0 to 5K ohms?  That would
make it very sensitive, so I'm not sure that would work well.  There is also a
25 ohm rheostat, but that is too low.  I could get some discrete resistors,
but it would be nice to check that the gauge moves smoothly.  I don't think
that I need to handle much amperage in this application.

So, any other ideas on how to make a cheap test rig for my gauges, preferably
using easy to obtain materials?  I'm a software guy, not an electronics guy,
so I apologize if this is an EE 101 type question!

Thanks,
Darrell

--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

From greg at gelhar.com  Tue Mar 12 16:34:01 2013
From: greg at gelhar.com (greg at gelhar.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:34:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
In-Reply-To: <8817E81B-3617-4109-A9C6-0C046CC6ACB4@mac.com>
References: <8817E81B-3617-4109-A9C6-0C046CC6ACB4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <11323bbe24ed952dc393f1446d271622.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com>

I thought a 300 ohm potentiometer would work but find that a 500 ohm model
is much cheaper.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-OHM-Linear-Taper-Rotary-Potentiometer-B500-Pot-/280672832335?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4159678b4f


> So, any other ideas on how to make a cheap test rig for my gauges,
> preferably
> using easy to obtain materials?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Mar 12 16:43:06 2013
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:43:06 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
In-Reply-To: <8817E81B-3617-4109-A9C6-0C046CC6ACB4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20130312224306.066IG.58700.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>

Radio Shack unfortunately doesn't carry much in the way of components any more.  You're lucky if they get even close to what you want.

But in this case, I think that
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062307
will do well enough.  You won't be using its full range, but since it is 15 turns from 0 to 1K, you'll still get about 3 turns between 85 ohms and 285 ohms.

Randall

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Tue Mar 12 18:42:49 2013
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:42:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
In-Reply-To: <20130312224306.066IG.58700.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
References: <20130312224306.066IG.58700.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
Message-ID: <1F8ED35DFAAE4B7A97CFD76F7711D082@Dell2010Watson>

Hi, Darrell,

    OK, the Electronics teacher in me just had to come out.  I poked around 
on the net a little and couldn't find many details about how an electric 
gauge like this would work.  My concern is about the power that a pot would 
need to dissipate to simulate the sender.  According to one description the 
circuit in the meter applies a constant current through the sensor so the 
meter is just basically an ohmmeter with the meter scaled appropriately.  If 
this is true of yours and the current is low enough you won't have any 
problems.

    Based on my reading on the net I don't think the following is an issue 
but I'm going to mention it anyway:

    On the other extreme if a full 12V is applied to the sender then at the 
lowest resistance it would pull I = V / R = 12V / 85 Ohms = 0.14A.  If you 
use a potentiometer set to 85 Ohms then the pot would be dissipating P = V^2 
/ R = 12^2 / 85 = 144 / 85 = 1.7 Watts.  The two pots mentioned so far would 
fairly quickly fry trying to dissipate this amount of power.

    I did see one mention of 5V being applied to the sender.  In that 
instance the power dissipation would be 5^2 / 85 = 0.3 Watts.  The pot that 
Greg linked to is a 1/2 Watt unit so should would survive this treatment 
undamaged IF you don't go much lower than that resistance (P = V^2 / R so R 
= V^2 / P = 5 ^2 / 0.5 = 50 Ohms minimum).

    Now you've got me curious about how an electric oil pressure system. 
Blast - yet another thing to investigate ;-)

    Hope this helps and doesn't confound the issue.

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (stalled restoration :-(
1965 Ford Falcon - brake work
and various other uninspiring transportation pods

-----Original Message----- 
From: Randall
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:43 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Talk ; DarrellWalker
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor

Radio Shack unfortunately doesn't carry much in the way of components any 
more.  You're lucky if they get even close to what you want.

But in this case, I think that
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062307
will do well enough.  You won't be using its full range, but since it is 15 
turns from 0 to 1K, you'll still get about 3 turns between 85 ohms and 285 
ohms.

Randall

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Tue Mar 12 18:50:53 2013
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:50:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
In-Reply-To: <1F8ED35DFAAE4B7A97CFD76F7711D082@Dell2010Watson>
References: <20130312224306.066IG.58700.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
	<1F8ED35DFAAE4B7A97CFD76F7711D082@Dell2010Watson>
Message-ID: <81E2F39A-1FBD-4A14-A5CA-892E1F9220B5@mac.com>

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply.  I believe you are correct, the gauge is just an ohm
meter, with the resistance values mapped to pressure (in this case, temp
gauges work the same way).

The gauge has three connections, +12V (or whatever the electrical system is
producing, I believe the gauge has its own voltage compensation, unlike the
older gauges), ground, and the sense wire to the sender.  The sensor would
provide resistance between the spade connector and ground.  So I should be
able to connect the gauge up to 12 volts, and then measure voltage between the
sense terminal and ground to see what voltage the gauge uses to read the
resistance, right?

-Darrell

On Mar 12, 2013, at 5:42 PM, Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hi, Darrell,
>
>   OK, the Electronics teacher in me just had to come out.  I poked around on
the net a little and couldn't find many details about how an electric gauge
like this would work.  My concern is about the power that a pot would need to
dissipate to simulate the sender.  According to one description the circuit in
the meter applies a constant current through the sensor so the meter is just
basically an ohmmeter with the meter scaled appropriately.  If this is true of
yours and the current is low enough you won't have any problems.
>
>   Based on my reading on the net I don't think the following is an issue but
I'm going to mention it anyway:
>
>   On the other extreme if a full 12V is applied to the sender then at the
lowest resistance it would pull I = V / R = 12V / 85 Ohms = 0.14A.  If you use
a potentiometer set to 85 Ohms then the pot would be dissipating P = V^2 / R =
12^2 / 85 = 144 / 85 = 1.7 Watts.  The two pots mentioned so far would fairly
quickly fry trying to dissipate this amount of power.
>
>   I did see one mention of 5V being applied to the sender.  In that instance
the power dissipation would be 5^2 / 85 = 0.3 Watts.  The pot that Greg linked
to is a 1/2 Watt unit so should would survive this treatment undamaged IF you
don't go much lower than that resistance (P = V^2 / R so R = V^2 / P = 5 ^2 /
0.5 = 50 Ohms minimum).
>
>   Now you've got me curious about how an electric oil pressure system. Blast
- yet another thing to investigate ;-)
>
>   Hope this helps and doesn't confound the issue.
>
> Mark Watson
> 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (stalled restoration :-(
> 1965 Ford Falcon - brake work
> and various other uninspiring transportation pods
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Randall
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:43 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Talk ; DarrellWalker
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
>
> Radio Shack unfortunately doesn't carry much in the way of components any
more.  You're lucky if they get even close to what you want.
>
> But in this case, I think that
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062307
> will do well enough.  You won't be using its full range, but since it is 15
turns from 0 to 1K, you'll still get about 3 turns between 85 ohms and 285
ohms.
>
> Randall

From bkahler1 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 12 19:56:18 2013
From: bkahler1 at gmail.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:56:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] caulk gun
Message-ID: <CADm3DLG-_qEUYZJsv4QcS8UKwUYx7S_5+N1gY_eetQHd7TpM3Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to find
has the smooth round shaft.  My experience with a half dozen different guns
like that is they work like crap.  I bought the best one Lowes had to offer
and it was just as bad as the rest of them.

Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism.  That
gun always worked.

Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft?

Thanks,

Brad

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Mar 12 20:33:31 2013
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:33:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] caulk gun
In-Reply-To: <CADm3DLG-_qEUYZJsv4QcS8UKwUYx7S_5+N1gY_eetQHd7TpM3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADm3DLG-_qEUYZJsv4QcS8UKwUYx7S_5+N1gY_eetQHd7TpM3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9UfpFodB_iU3bhMH+3qSy_7aoyf6_injYA1W6fFAjZDSw@mail.gmail.com>

About 10 years ago I had a great gun that my wife bought somewhere.  All I
know about it was that it was made in the UK, and it was orange.  Then I
lent it to somebody, and I never saw it again.

A bit of googling led me to this:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/painting/63871-caulk-gun-made-england.html

Doug


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Brad Kahler <bkahler1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to find
> has the smooth round shaft.  My experience with a half dozen different guns
> like that is they work like crap.  I bought the best one Lowes had to offer
> and it was just as bad as the rest of them.
>
> Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism.  That
> gun always worked.
>
> Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brad
> ____

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Tue Mar 12 20:48:38 2013
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:48:38 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
In-Reply-To: <20130313015411.2IRV0.59769.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
References: <20130313015411.2IRV0.59769.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
Message-ID: <37FFC5FF-8DE7-4596-BF6C-C51E238A7E62@mac.com>

Hi Randall,

It definitely isn't a bimetallic strip type.  There appears to be two windings
overlapping in a kind of inverted "V", and the needle is free to float between
them.  My guess is the windings create a magnetic field that moves the needle,
but how that magic happens is beyond me.

I ended up ordering a 500 ohm, 1/4 watt pot. When it arrives,  I'll set it to
500 ohms and report back!

-Darrell

On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> Good point about power dissipation.  Wish I had a good answer.
>
> There are several different designs of electric automotive gauges; and I
don't know which type Darrell has.  I believe the Jaguar oil pressure gauge
that I have uses a "balanced" magnetic movement somewhat similar to the design
used for the fuel gauge in my TR3 but with somewhat higher resistances.  Here
is a circuit diagram:
> http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/fg_05.htm#fg_diag
>
> But I haven't had it hooked up yet, so I'm not certain.
>
> Another common movement type uses a bimetal strip and a heater.  As the
strip is heated, the differential expansion of the two dissimilar metals
forces the strip to bend.  That motion is transmitted to the needle through a
lever that greatly amplifies the movement.  This type of movement was used for
the fuel and temp gauges for TR4-6, as well as my 1970 Audi.
>
> None of which really answers the question.  Best suggestion I have is to
start with the pot at highest resistance, then measure the voltage across it
and calculate an equivalent resistance for the gauge.  Then you can calculate
the current and power dissipation at 85 ohms and see if you are in trouble.  A
higher power control will quickly get you into territory where it makes better
financial sense to just buy the sender.
>
> Unless maybe you can poke around and find one on the surplus market for
cheap.  There are a couple here:
> http://goo.gl/trCYq
> that would do.
>
> Randall

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 12 22:53:49 2013
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:53:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] caulk gun
In-Reply-To: <CADm3DLG-_qEUYZJsv4QcS8UKwUYx7S_5+N1gY_eetQHd7TpM3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADm3DLG-_qEUYZJsv4QcS8UKwUYx7S_5+N1gY_eetQHd7TpM3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5140065D.4020409@earthlink.net>

Brad - I have one of the orange caulk guns another list member 
mentioned.  It is made by Cox and says Wexford and made in England. I 
thought I got it at Home Depot a number of years ago, but they don't 
have it on their website, though they do have other Cox products.

See

http://www.amazon.com/41001-Wexford-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton/dp/B000DZCYLA

or a fiberglass one

http://www.amazon.com/21001-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton-Fiberglass/dp/B000FPDFHA

for samples.  If the links don't work just put in "cox caulk gun" at 
Amazon and select under $25.

I highly recommend this gun.  Mine is metal and has gone though many 
tubes, including some old stuff that went hard.  It doesn't have teeth 
like you wanted, but I can say it will apply considerable pressure and 
not slip.  This shaft is a hexagon.  At the same time, when you release 
the grip, it slightly eases the pressure, so the caulk stops.  The bent 
hook one the back of the shaft is great for hanging on a pocket or part 
of a ladder.

I pulled out my cheap caulk gun last summer because I misplaced the Cox 
one and there is so much difference, I looked till I found the good one.

Brian

On 3/12/2013 6:56 PM, Brad Kahler wrote:
> I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to find
> has the smooth round shaft.  My experience with a half dozen different guns
> like that is they work like crap.  I bought the best one Lowes had to offer
> and it was just as bad as the rest of them.
>
> Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism.  That
> gun always worked.
>
> Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From mark at bradakis.com  Tue Mar 12 23:12:05 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:12:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Forums
Message-ID: <51400AA5.2060700@bradakis.com>

I have fixed the problem with new registrations for the forums [ link
below ] so those who are not already registered can sign up.

mjb.

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Wed Mar 13 07:57:18 2013
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:57:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a variable 85-285 ohm resistor
In-Reply-To: <37FFC5FF-8DE7-4596-BF6C-C51E238A7E62@mac.com>
References: <20130313015411.2IRV0.59769.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
	<37FFC5FF-8DE7-4596-BF6C-C51E238A7E62@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2FAC6909-9D18-4296-BEE6-56E1D6BF3F8E@mac.com>

I did a little more inspection of the gauge, and checked the resistance
between the power connection and the sensor, and power and ground.  I see 328
ohms between power and ground on the gauge, and 178 between power and the
sensor connection.  Looking at the link that Randall provided, I believe the
operation of my gauge is the similar, though the construction is different.
One coil is wired from power directly to ground, and the other is wired
through the sensor, so the resistance in that path would vary between 263 and
463 ohms (178 plus the variable resistance from the sensor).  I believe this
causes two magnetic fields (one fixed, one variable) that act on the needle
and register the oil pressure (as presented by the variable resistance in the
sensor).

At least, that's my guess!

From lee at automate-it.com  Wed Mar 13 11:09:59 2013
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:09:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery
In-Reply-To: <513E8903.5070103@gmail.com>
References: <d725f343141ab49e7e614a7296b549ce.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
	<513E8903.5070103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <271d271631a57f5b8a842caf9af2d7d5.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

These same guys (Spring Grove Battery) have rebuild kits for several other
batteries too: Dewalt 14.4V, Milwaukee 14.4V, Dewalt 12V. See
http://goo.gl/mGbF0
And even more listed at their web site: http://www.springgrovebattery.com/


> Please do. I've got at least six (and maybe eight) Milwaukee 18v packs
> in the house. So many (and so dead) that I've started to lose track of them.

From jb at lerch.org  Wed Mar 13 13:09:34 2013
From: jb at lerch.org (Justin Bedard)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:09:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery
In-Reply-To: <271d271631a57f5b8a842caf9af2d7d5.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <d725f343141ab49e7e614a7296b549ce.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
	<513E8903.5070103@gmail.com>
	<271d271631a57f5b8a842caf9af2d7d5.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <CAMXxUQrJ4=SXO=rGUB6BQtsrLiNQEMpz59cPd-uXCJYf0KER5w@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't used them, but I've heard good things.  These guys rebuild the
batteries for you for and at least the Milwaukee 18v NiCAD rebuild is $48.75
vs $43.50 plus shipping your batteries out.


On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com> wrote:

> These same guys (Spring Grove Battery) have rebuild kits for several other
> batteries too: Dewalt 14.4V, Milwaukee 14.4V, Dewalt 12V. See
> http://goo.gl/mGbF0
> And even more listed at their web site: http://www.springgrovebattery.com/
>
>
> > Please do. I've got at least six (and maybe eight) Milwaukee 18v packs
> > in the house. So many (and so dead) that I've started to lose track of
> them.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jb at lerch.org

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Mar 13 17:57:28 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:57:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
Message-ID: <OF82C4300A.01665676-ON85257B2D.008263B1-85257B2E.00013E58@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but 
I guess i didn't.

Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing 
two- 4' fluorescent fixtures.  The ceiling is at 14'  and the area I want 
to light in front of where I work on cars.  So I figured I would add four- 
4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area.  (Think of a 
parked car...  One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two 
perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the 
front end.)

I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find.  I hung 32watt, 
dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so 
about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.)

Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed.  So disappointed 
that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and 
wattage.  The different was huge!  The new lights were nothing compared to 
the old ones.

My question is...

I want the brightest fluorescent fixtures I can get.  I don't care if they 
are 4' or 8'.  What fixture (wattage and "T" value) do I get  and what 
bulbs do I put in them.

These lights are on for most of the time I'm in my shop, so I don't want 
anything that sucks electricity, but I will if I have to.

Thanks again!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Mar 13 18:18:28 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:18:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
Message-ID: <0MJM002WCJJ397R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

New fluorescent tubes require a "break in" period to achieve full 
brightness.  Did you leave them on for a while before you judged them 
inadequate?

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 07:57 PM 3/13/2013, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but
>I guess i didn't.
>
>Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing
>two- 4' fluorescent fixtures.  The ceiling is at 14'  and the area I want
>to light in front of where I work on cars.  So I figured I would add four-
>4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area.  (Think of a
>parked car...  One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two
>perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the
>front end.)
>
>I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find.  I hung 32watt,
>dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so
>about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.)
>
>Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed.  So disappointed
>that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and
>wattage.  The different was huge!  The new lights were nothing compared to
>the old ones.

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Mar 13 18:12:28 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:12:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] "Rebuild kit" for Milwaukee 18V battery
In-Reply-To: <271d271631a57f5b8a842caf9af2d7d5.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <OFBC03FDE7.3A3AFB34-ON85257B2E.0000D8A6-85257B2E.00029DD6@mail.megageek.com>

I used "Primecell" in the past for my dewalts 18V and they were very 
disappointing.  The contact on the batteries corroded, while other 
original batteries (stored next to them) are fine.

Also, the rebuilt batteries didn't last very long.

I'm very curious to see how the kits works out for you, as I will buy a 
bunch for my dewalts if it is anything good.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




These same guys (Spring Grove Battery) have rebuild kits for several other
batteries too: Dewalt 14.4V, Milwaukee 14.4V, Dewalt 12V. See
http://goo.gl/mGbF0
And even more listed at their web site: http://www.springgrovebattery.com/



Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Mar 13 18:38:49 2013
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 0:38:49 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
In-Reply-To: <OF82C4300A.01665676-ON85257B2D.008263B1-85257B2E.00013E58@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <20130314003850.JGNYW.65253.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>

> I hung 32watt, 
> dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens 

I think there must be some mistake here.  Are you sure that isn't color temperature (K) instead of lumens?  The highest output 32 watt T8 bulb I could find is only rated at 2950 lumens (so 5900 for the pair).

Did they have reflectors?  Easy way to nearly double the amount of light where you want it.

To get the light, you're going to have to run the power.  Brightest for it's length would be a T12 HO (high output) bulb, at 60 watts for a 48".  An 8' HO T12 would give you about twice as much light, for twice as much power.

I have (5) 8' 2-bulb fixtures to cover my 2 car bays, but they are only about 8' from the floor.  You'll need more with them up at 13'.

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Mar 13 18:56:37 2013
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:56:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
In-Reply-To: <0MJM002WCJJ397R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0MJM002WCJJ397R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9W3r2umZEZXgx1R2KmuT_BVj_QD0d4ScixTW+qQ9x8jUg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a pair of fixtures that take 8-foot T12 HO bulbs (which have a
different type of pins at each end).
They are real bright.  Last year I found reasonably-priced GE electronic
ballasts to replaced the original magnetic ones, and now they start right
up in winter weather, and are totally silent.

But I suspect that these types of fixtures are being phased out.

Doug


> At 07:57 PM 3/13/2013, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
>> OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but
>> I guess i didn't.
>>
>> Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing
>> two- 4' fluorescent fixtures.  The ceiling is at 14'  and the area I want
>> to light in front of where I work on cars.  So I figured I would add four-
>> 4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area.  (Think of a
>> parked car...  One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two
>> perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the
>> front end.)
>>
>> I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find.  I hung 32watt,
>> dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so
>> about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.)
>>
>> Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed.  So disappointed
>> that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and
>> wattage.  The different was huge!  The new lights were nothing compared to
>> the old ones.

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 13 19:08:27 2013
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Randy)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:08:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
Message-ID: <vps1p6fip0ykq9tg274qpga2.1363223091334@email.android.com>

If you are buying new fixtures I'd go with either the T5 or T8. The T12 are being phased out and are less efficient.Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:I have a pair of fixtures that take 8-foot T12 HO bulbs (which have a
different type of pins at each end).
They are real bright.B  Last year I found reasonably-priced GE electronic
ballasts to replaced the original magnetic ones, and now they start right
up in winter weather, and are totally silent.

But I suspect that these types of fixtures are being phased out.

Doug


> At 07:57 PM 3/13/2013, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
>> OK, I know we beat this horse to death, and I thought I understood it, but
>> I guess i didn't.
>>
>> Here is the situation, I need to add lighting for the shop. I'm replacing
>> two- 4' fluorescent fixtures.B  The ceiling is at 14'B  and the area I want
>> to light in front of where I work on cars.B  So I figured I would add four-
>> 4' fluorescent light fixtures in a "U" shape around the area.B  (Think of a
>> parked car...B  One light on each side of the front 1/4 panels and two
>> perpendicular to the front of the car so the lights are wrapped around the
>> front end.)
>>
>> I wanted the brightest fluorescent lights I could find.B  I hung 32watt,
>> dual bulb T8 fixtures with 6500 Lumens about 1' down from the ceiling (so
>> about 13' off the ground, I need it them this high for clearance issues.)
>>
>> Anyway, I turned them on and I was quite disappointed.B  So disappointed
>> that I hooked up my old 4' fluorescent fixtures with unknown T12 bulbs and
>> wattage.B  The different was huge!B  The new lights were nothing compared to
>> the old ones.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donationB  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mistertwo at sbcglobal.net

From bkahler1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 14 09:15:43 2013
From: bkahler1 at gmail.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:15:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] caulk gun
In-Reply-To: <5140065D.4020409@earthlink.net>
References: <CADm3DLG-_qEUYZJsv4QcS8UKwUYx7S_5+N1gY_eetQHd7TpM3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<5140065D.4020409@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CADm3DLEF4HnhrYA6CMdtU77mNa6s3akGfF_JV0ZHbeBw85Tc+A@mail.gmail.com>

Guys, thanks for the response.  I would have replied sooner but I've been a
little under the weather the last few days.

I think I'll pick up the one that Brian recommends and give it a try.

I guess no one sells the type with teeth on it anymore :(

Thanks!

Brad



On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Brad - I have one of the orange caulk guns another list member mentioned.
>  It is made by Cox and says Wexford and made in England. I thought I got it
> at Home Depot a number of years ago, but they don't have it on their
> website, though they do have other Cox products.
>
> See
>
> http://www.amazon.com/41001-**Wexford-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-**
> Skeleton/dp/B000DZCYLA<http://www.amazon.com/41001-Wexford-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton/dp/B000DZCYLA>
>
> or a fiberglass one
>
> http://www.amazon.com/21001-**10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton-**
> Fiberglass/dp/B000FPDFHA<http://www.amazon.com/21001-10-3-Ounce-Cartridge-Skeleton-Fiberglass/dp/B000FPDFHA>
>
> for samples.  If the links don't work just put in "cox caulk gun" at
> Amazon and select under $25.
>
> I highly recommend this gun.  Mine is metal and has gone though many
> tubes, including some old stuff that went hard.  It doesn't have teeth like
> you wanted, but I can say it will apply considerable pressure and not slip.
>  This shaft is a hexagon.  At the same time, when you release the grip, it
> slightly eases the pressure, so the caulk stops.  The bent hook one the
> back of the shaft is great for hanging on a pocket or part of a ladder.
>
> I pulled out my cheap caulk gun last summer because I misplaced the Cox
> one and there is so much difference, I looked till I found the good one.
>
> Brian
>
> On 3/12/2013 6:56 PM, Brad Kahler wrote:
>
>> I'm in need of a new caulk gun and the only style I seem to be able to
>> find
>> has the smooth round shaft.  My experience with a half dozen different
>> guns
>> like that is they work like crap.  I bought the best one Lowes had to
>> offer
>> and it was just as bad as the rest of them.
>>
>> Somehow I lost my nice gun that had teeth for the ratchet mechanism.  That
>> gun always worked.
>>
>> Any suggestions on where to find a decent gun with teeth on the shaft?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brad
>> ______________________________**_________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
>> options/shop-talk/bk13@**earthlink.net<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net>

From arvidj at visi.com  Thu Mar 14 09:43:49 2013
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:43:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] caulk gun
Message-ID: <8076EFCEA2D1445BA36838BDF722784B@HP62011>

Just a guess on my part but I think the kind with teeth are called "ratchet 
caulk gun". A Google for that phrase seems to offer many vendors and many 
guns.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Brad Kahler
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:15 AM
To: Brian Kemp
Cc: Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] caulk gun

Guys, thanks for the response.  I would have replied sooner but I've been a
little under the weather the last few days.

I think I'll pick up the one that Brian recommends and give it a try.

I guess no one sells the type with teeth on it anymore :(

Thanks!

Brad 

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Mar 14 16:10:54 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:10:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
In-Reply-To: <0MJM002WCJJ397R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <OF68B5C6A6.A5B95CF4-ON85257B2E.0079C967-85257B2E.007B55D6@mail.megageek.com>

Steven writes...

>New fluorescent tubes require a "break in" period to achieve full 
>brightness.  Did you leave them on for a while before you judged them 
>inadequate?

I never heard this.  How long are we talking?

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Mar 14 16:12:35 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:12:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
In-Reply-To: <20130314003850.JGNYW.65253.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
Message-ID: <OF02097895.A955D8D8-ON85257B2E.0079DD89-85257B2E.007B7D28@mail.megageek.com>

Randall asks,

>Are you sure that isn't color temperature (K) instead of lumens? 

Yes, I had that confused?  I see this is going to take a return trip to 
Lowes to get better lights.

Thanks again guys

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Mar 14 16:41:53 2013
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:41:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
In-Reply-To: <OF68B5C6A6.A5B95CF4-ON85257B2E.0079C967-85257B2E.007B55D6@mail.megageek.com>
References: <0MJM002WCJJ397R0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<OF68B5C6A6.A5B95CF4-ON85257B2E.0079C967-85257B2E.007B55D6@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5suoABEsc_AJ0DrPdLtQ4XiJ-0jREQPDXCYFz3KaM7+GNsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:10 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> Steven writes...
>
>>New fluorescent tubes require a "break in" period to achieve full
>>brightness.  Did you leave them on for a while before you judged them
>>inadequate?
>
> I never heard this.  How long are we talking?

12 to 24 hours.  It's particularly important with dimming ballasts,
because improper burn in leads to greatly reduced lamp life.  Proper
burn in increases lamp life, increases output, and decreases warm up
time.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Mar 14 23:27:40 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:27:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5suoABEsc_AJ0DrPdLtQ4XiJ-0jREQPDXCYFz3KaM7+GNsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74.3C.06772.741B2415@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> 12 to 24 hours.  It's particularly important with dimming 
> ballasts, because improper burn in leads to greatly reduced 
> lamp life.  Proper burn in increases lamp life, increases 
> output, and decreases warm up time.

Seems to be a lot of variation in recommendations.  Philips and GE claim at
least some of their bulbs don't require burn-in
http://goo.gl/pW84Z
http://goo.gl/mhqrI
While Osram suggests 100 hours, not just 12 to 24
http://goo.gl/3mYtq

But I couldn't find anything to suggest that light output rises after
burn-in; in fact it drops somewhat from "initial" lumens to "design" lumens.
It also applies only to bulbs that will be dimmed, which I doubt Inch is
planning to do.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Mar 15 05:44:58 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:44:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent lights (I need help here)
In-Reply-To: <74.3C.06772.741B2415@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <CA+k5suoABEsc_AJ0DrPdLtQ4XiJ-0jREQPDXCYFz3KaM7+GNsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<74.3C.06772.741B2415@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0MJP003ZFA1SB0B0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

My personal experience is that if I replace the tubes in one fixture, 
it will appear noticeably less bright at first.  An hour later, it 
will look like the others.  I don't know how long it takes to 
actually reach full brightness in scientific terms.  I just know that 
if I judged them by the first five minutes, I'd be taking them back 
for a refund.  And this is with Walmart shoplights, Philips bulbs, no 
dimmers.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 01:27 AM 3/15/2013, Randall wrote:
> > 12 to 24 hours.  It's particularly important with dimming
> > ballasts, because improper burn in leads to greatly reduced
> > lamp life.  Proper burn in increases lamp life, increases
> > output, and decreases warm up time.
>
>Seems to be a lot of variation in recommendations.  Philips and GE claim at
>least some of their bulbs don't require burn-in
>http://goo.gl/pW84Z
>http://goo.gl/mhqrI
>While Osram suggests 100 hours, not just 12 to 24
>http://goo.gl/3mYtq
>
>But I couldn't find anything to suggest that light output rises after
>burn-in; in fact it drops somewhat from "initial" lumens to "design" lumens.
>It also applies only to bulbs that will be dimmed, which I doubt Inch is
>planning to do.
>
>Randall

From al at bighealey.org  Sat Mar 16 08:52:46 2013
From: al at bighealey.org (Al Fuller)
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine
In-Reply-To: <q6psj6dqo71ia3plvpjcg29gj4fjekia2s@4ax.com>
References: <q6psj6dqo71ia3plvpjcg29gj4fjekia2s@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org>

Roland [and all]:

Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water system?

I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines.  It
appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a
functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to toilet
tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets to
work...]

In my case the water heater is gas, not electric.  There are two heaters
installed, but IIRC, only one is working.

Any help will be appreciated.

Al Fuller
al at bighealey dot org
'62 BT-7
'65 BJ-8
'85 Rx-7

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Roland Wilhelmy
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:04 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine

Ever since I had a new electric water heater installed there has been "air"
in the water lines.  This is long after the tank has been filled and all the
air bled out of the system.  Every time that we draw hot water after it has
been unused for 8 hours or more, just as the water from the tap turns hot a
whole lot of "air" bubbles out too over the next minute or so of flow.

Has anyone on the list encountered this?  I assume that some sort of
electrolytic reaction is generating the "air".  A google search didn't come
up with anything beside that fact that sacrificial anodes are attacked more
fiercely if the tank is supplied with soft water.
Something about the salt.  But nothing about anything generating all this
"air".  We do have softened water.

I am going to call the plumbers who installed the heater but I would feel
better if I had some idea of what is going on before I call them.

-Roland
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/al at bighealey.org

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 16 14:50:15 2013
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 13:50:15 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine
In-Reply-To: <010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org>
References: <q6psj6dqo71ia3plvpjcg29gj4fjekia2s@4ax.com>
	<010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org>
Message-ID: <t8m9k8pqqv70bd7eik02do04um835fe4r1@4ax.com>

Al (et al.)-

My air in the water lines problem gradually went away.  Now I don't
know if the problem was electrolysis and it stopped cuz there wasn't
any more stuff to eat away or if the air came from some place beside
the water supply.  Since I have a service contract on the water heater
I am just going to watch and wait.  I tried to ignite the 'air' coming
out of the tap but could not.  This suggests that whatever the source
of the gas it isn't from breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen.

I wish I could give you more help.  Do gas water heaters have
sacrificial rods?  If so you could pull them and see if they are being
destroyed more rapidly than normal.  Could you remove the second water
heater from the plumbing and see if that helps?

-Roland

On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400, you wrote:

::Roland [and all]:
::
::Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water system?
::
::I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines.  It
::appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a
::functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to toilet
::tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets
to
::work...]
::
::In my case the water heater is gas, not electric.  There are two heaters
::installed, but IIRC, only one is working.
::
::Any help will be appreciated.
::
::Al Fuller
::al at bighealey dot org
::'62 BT-7
::'65 BJ-8
::'85 Rx-7

From al at bighealey.org  Sun Mar 17 08:21:12 2013
From: al at bighealey.org (Al Fuller)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 10:21:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine
In-Reply-To: <t8m9k8pqqv70bd7eik02do04um835fe4r1@4ax.com>
References: <q6psj6dqo71ia3plvpjcg29gj4fjekia2s@4ax.com>
	<010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org>
	<t8m9k8pqqv70bd7eik02do04um835fe4r1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <011f01ce231a$ae895240$0b9bf6c0$@org>

Thanks Roland:

Yes, gas heaters DO have sacrificial rods, but I agree with Paul that the
rod is unlikely to make the volume of bubbles I'm seeing.

I will have to go back to square one and try to diagnose it...  One thought
is the water table may have dropped down a bit, and the pump is sucking up
some air with the water.

Al Fuller
al at bighealey dot org
'62 BT-7
'65 BJ-8
'85 Rx-7


-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wilhelmy [mailto:rwil at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 4:50 PM
To: Al Fuller
Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine

Al (et al.)-

My air in the water lines problem gradually went away.  Now I don't know if
the problem was electrolysis and it stopped cuz there wasn't any more stuff
to eat away or if the air came from some place beside the water supply.
Since I have a service contract on the water heater I am just going to watch
and wait.  I tried to ignite the 'air' coming out of the tap but could not.
This suggests that whatever the source of the gas it isn't from breaking
down water into hydrogen and oxygen.

I wish I could give you more help.  Do gas water heaters have sacrificial
rods?  If so you could pull them and see if they are being destroyed more
rapidly than normal.  Could you remove the second water heater from the
plumbing and see if that helps?

-Roland

On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400, you wrote:

::Roland [and all]:
::
::Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water system?
::
::I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines.  It
::appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a
::functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to toilet
::tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets
to ::work...]
::
::In my case the water heater is gas, not electric.  There are two heaters
::installed, but IIRC, only one is working.
::
::Any help will be appreciated.
::
::Al Fuller
::al at bighealey dot org
::'62 BT-7
::'65 BJ-8
::'85 Rx-7

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Sun Mar 17 10:39:53 2013
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:39:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine
In-Reply-To: <011f01ce231a$ae895240$0b9bf6c0$@org>
References: <q6psj6dqo71ia3plvpjcg29gj4fjekia2s@4ax.com>
	<010901ce2255$ef074a40$cd15dec0$@org>
	<t8m9k8pqqv70bd7eik02do04um835fe4r1@4ax.com>
	<011f01ce231a$ae895240$0b9bf6c0$@org>
Message-ID: <CAMHq6ZykUq7cvV_sbT=8MN_rUNKus1bvHW0DgxXeLDzR0JJ13Q@mail.gmail.com>

The only source of air I've had in my home plumbing was found to be the
water softener.  I had a Sears Kenmore and eventually determined that every
time it 'recycled' it let some air in the system.  I'd get a spitting sink
or shower the morning after.  As I investigated what to I was told that the
Kenmore (and most of the consumer brands like Morton, etc.) use the same
'inexpensive' valve/control.  I was told to buy one that uses a Fleck
controller which is the same brand that Culligan softeners use.  Many
softener supply places on the web say the same thing.

Being a cheap bastard, I rebuilt the Kenmore control valve assembly and
that improved it for a while.  Then I put up with the air until the Kenmore
quit working for the 3rd time and I internet ordered a softener with a
Fleck controller.  Its been six months with no air and no issues.  Not much
time yet, but this unit appears much better made and I know I had to fix
something every couple years with the Kenmore. I've been told to expect it
to work trouble free for 10 years or more.  We'll see.

Anyway,  I believe I saw in the earlier posts that there was also a
softener installed so thought this might be relevant.  There's not many
others ways to get air into the plumbing.

Ben......




On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Al Fuller <al at bighealey.org> wrote:

> Thanks Roland:
>
> Yes, gas heaters DO have sacrificial rods, but I agree with Paul that the
> rod is unlikely to make the volume of bubbles I'm seeing.
>
> I will have to go back to square one and try to diagnose it...  One thought
> is the water table may have dropped down a bit, and the pump is sucking up
> some air with the water.
>
> Al Fuller
> al at bighealey dot org
> '62 BT-7
> '65 BJ-8
> '85 Rx-7
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roland Wilhelmy [mailto:rwil at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 4:50 PM
> To: Al Fuller
> Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] turn off the bubble machine
>
> Al (et al.)-
>
> My air in the water lines problem gradually went away.  Now I don't know if
> the problem was electrolysis and it stopped cuz there wasn't any more stuff
> to eat away or if the air came from some place beside the water supply.
> Since I have a service contract on the water heater I am just going to
> watch
> and wait.  I tried to ignite the 'air' coming out of the tap but could not.
> This suggests that whatever the source of the gas it isn't from breaking
> down water into hydrogen and oxygen.
>
> I wish I could give you more help.  Do gas water heaters have sacrificial
> rods?  If so you could pull them and see if they are being destroyed more
> rapidly than normal.  Could you remove the second water heater from the
> plumbing and see if that helps?
>
> -Roland
>
> On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:52:46 -0400, you wrote:
>
> ::Roland [and all]:
> ::
> ::Did you ever determine the source of the air bubbles in your water
> system?
> ::
> ::I too have a well and softened system, and have air in the lines.  It
> ::appears to be getting worse, progressing from a mere nuisance to having a
> ::functional impact on the system [eg, the volume of water getting to
> toilet
> ::tanks appears lower now, as does the ability to the 'power flush' toilets
> to ::work...]
> ::
> ::In my case the water heater is gas, not electric.  There are two heaters
> ::installed, but IIRC, only one is working.
> ::
> ::Any help will be appreciated.
> ::
> ::Al Fuller
> ::al at bighealey dot org
> ::'62 BT-7
> ::'65 BJ-8
> ::'85 Rx-7
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Sun Mar 17 13:54:14 2013
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:54:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
Message-ID: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>

I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder 
keys.  It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my 
wallet are over.  So what's the deal with transponder keys?  Can Ace 
Hardware clone them?  What's the deal about only being able to "program" 
a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an 
unlimited number of clones?   Why is everything such a PITA these days? 
    (I feel a rant coming on....)

FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does 
have remote door lock fobs.

Thanks
Dave

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Mar 17 18:28:23 2013
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:28:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <51465FA7.4080000@hornesystemstx.com>

Dave,

My dodge van uses transponder keys also...I think most cars do these 
days. A standard brass key can be used to open the door and unlock the 
steering wheel, but will not start the car. If it does start the car, 
the fuel pump won't run and it will die right away. I have a brass key 
taped to the back of my rear license plate just in case I lock my keys 
in the car. I would use the same type of brass key  if I were the 
outdoors type and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing 
the transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside 
the car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door.

A locksmith or the dealer will need to program the transponder, unless 
you have at least 2 functioning transponder keys. It may be possible to 
program the new transponder key yourself, I know I can on my Dodge van.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Dave C

> I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder 
> keys.  It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my 
> wallet are over.  So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace 
> Hardware clone them?  What's the deal about only being able to 
> "program" a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can 
> I make an unlimited number of clones?   Why is everything such a PITA 
> these days?    (I feel a rant coming on....)
>
> FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does 
> have remote door lock fobs.
>
> Thanks
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice & Text	5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Sun Mar 17 19:07:53 2013
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:07:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <51465FA7.4080000@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<51465FA7.4080000@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <514668E9.5060605@frontier.com>

I hadn't thought of that; good idea.


On 3/17/2013 5:28 PM, Pat Horne wrote:
> I would use the same type of brass key  if I were the outdoors type 
> and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the 
> transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the 
> car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door. 

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sun Mar 17 20:43:38 2013
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:43:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <20130318024338.GA99037@sackheads.org>

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:54:14PM -0700, Dave C wrote:
> I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder keys.  
> It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are 
> over.  So what's the deal with transponder keys?  Can Ace Hardware clone 
> them?  What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four 
> keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of 
> clones?   Why is everything such a PITA these days?    (I feel a rant 
> coming on....)
> 

Over the last 10 years or so, there have been numerous documented hacks
of RFID-based ignition systems.  Some vehicles don't even need a mechanical
key to unlock the steering column.  This means someone can steal your vehicle
without leaving any damage (which, I would assume, will lead insurance
companies to deny claims on the basis that there's no evidence that the 
vehicle was actually stolen).

So, instead of a brass backup key in your wallet or hidden under a body panel,
perhaps all you need is a smartphone (or maybe a Raspberry Pi), an RFID
transmitter and an appropriate RFID cracking app...

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sun Mar 17 20:56:37 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:56:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <51468265.2030102@gmail.com>

I'm not ultra-knowledgeable about the keys in general, but the cars I've 
had have all been slightly different in how they executed them. I've got 
a Cadillac CTS-V now, and that's the first one that actually made me 
nervous--there are no holes in the door to manually unlock it with a 
key. If the transmitter in the fob dies...well, I assume there has to be 
a failsafe and it's in the owner's manual. Hopefully.

As far as I know, most of them have a RFID chip in the key (or some 
proximity chip). If the key with which you're trying to start the car 
doesn't signal the car with the chip, either (depending on the make, 
etc.) the wheel won't unlock, the engine won't crank, the ignition won't 
energize (so the engine will spin but no spark), the or the fuel pump 
won't power up.

The VW's I've had with this can't be copied anywhere but the VW service 
center. Not the dealer, the dealer has to send your VIN off to someone 
who will send them a key. $150 for the key/fob, $175 to program it and 
it takes a few weeks. Fords were easier. Cadillac was the best--the keys 
are cheap (though there are several variations so you have to be careful 
about buying the right one), anyone can cut the physical key, and then 
you can program it in the car with an OBD-like tool that most places 
seem to have. I *think* you can even buy them yourself as easily as a 
code puller (for all I know, the code puller itself does it), but the 
locksmith I went to charged me $20 to cut the key and program it, so I 
just paid him.

All that to say that there seems to be a lot of variation. Hope the 
Subie is one of the easy ones.

On 3/17/2013 3:54 PM, Dave C wrote:
> I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder 
> keys.  It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my 
> wallet are over.  So what's the deal with transponder keys? Can Ace 
> Hardware clone them?  What's the deal about only being able to 
> "program" a maximum of four keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can 
> I make an unlimited number of clones?   Why is everything such a PITA 
> these days?    (I feel a rant coming on....)
>
> FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does 
> have remote door lock fobs.
>
> Thanks
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com

From shannahquilts at gmail.com  Sun Mar 17 22:24:04 2013
From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>

In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have
a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder,
a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors.
It does not start the car.

We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years.  These
are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the
door handle to get in.  You press a button to start the car.
So, the transponder is used a lot.  Still, we get a lot of warning
when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just
go to the dealer to replace it.

You can probably also google for instructions on how to
replace the battery yourself.  My mechanic showed me and it
was a simple process.

Shannah


On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Dave C <cavanadd at frontier.com> wrote:

> I just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder keys.
>  It looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are
> over.  So what's the deal with transponder keys?  Can Ace Hardware clone
> them?  What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four
> keys for the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of
> clones?   Why is everything such a PITA these days?    (I feel a rant
> coming on....)
>
> FWIW this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does have
> remote door lock fobs.
>
> Thanks
> Dave
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/**
> shannahquilts at gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com>

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 17 22:45:52 2013
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:45:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>

Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders.  You're on your
own for opening the cases.

-Roland

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote:

::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have
::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder,
::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors.
::It does not start the car.
::
::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years.  These
::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the
::door handle to get in.  You press a button to start the car.
::So, the transponder is used a lot.  Still, we get a lot of warning
::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just
::go to the dealer to replace it.
::
::You can probably also google for instructions on how to
::replace the battery yourself.  My mechanic showed me and it
::was a simple process.
::
::Shannah

From shannahquilts at gmail.com  Sun Mar 17 23:15:59 2013
From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:15:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7z=3VQKGaYsYWxDYs6WtqFyg93EakoO0OJBjU=cQt5eTK9A@mail.gmail.com>

For ours, like I said, my mechanic showed me how to
replace the batteries.  The batteries are CR2032 so I
doubt we'll have any issues.

Whether or not this is true for all transponder keys, I
don't know.  I know that there are ones out there that
do not open the same as ours.

Shannah

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Roland Wilhelmy <rwil at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders.  You're on your
> own for opening the cases.
>
> -Roland
>
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote:
>
> ::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have
> ::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder,
> ::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors.
> ::It does not start the car.
> ::
> ::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years.  These
> ::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the
> ::door handle to get in.  You press a button to start the car.
> ::So, the transponder is used a lot.  Still, we get a lot of warning
> ::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just
> ::go to the dealer to replace it.
> ::
> ::You can probably also google for instructions on how to
> ::replace the battery yourself.  My mechanic showed me and it
> ::was a simple process.
> ::
> ::Shannah
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com

From battmain at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 17 23:48:15 2013
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:48:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com> 
Message-ID: <1363585695.88515.YahooMailNeo@web140002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

If you google hard enough, you should be able to find both the 'how to' and
the tools.(if needed.) That old saying--Where there is a will, there is a way.
:)

The keys can be cut elsewhere. Some home depot, lowes or even walmart can
cut the keys for you. Dealers want to make you think they are the only ones
that can do it. To bypass the limitation, you *might* need the dealer
programmer, but even that is available on eBay. Is it worth the cost vs a trip
to the dealer? Only you can decide. 

Regards,
Brian

From: Dave C
<cavanadd at frontier.com>
>To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net 
>Sent: Sunday, March
17, 2013 3:54 PM
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
> 
>I
just got a 2013 Subaru Forester.  It apparently uses transponder keys.  It
looks like the days of having a cheap copy cut to keep in my wallet are over. 
So what's the deal with transponder keys?  Can Ace Hardware clone them? 
What's the deal about only being able to "program" a maximum of four keys for
the car (as per the manual)? Can I make an unlimited number of clones?   Why
is everything such a PITA these days?    (I feel a rant coming on....)
>
>FWIW
this car DOES NOT have remote start, although of course it does have remote
door lock fobs.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Mar 18 00:06:19 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:06:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com>

I got to be a pro at replacing the batteries on the VAG (VW) fobs. They 
don't *look* like they want to be opened, but it's easy after the first 
time and you realize you're not going to break it.

Of course, Radio Shack (near me) doesn't carry the battery, but they're 
common and Amazon Prime has them here in two days.

I haven't had to do the GM one yet. I don't remember the Ford ones being 
a problem--only had to do those once, maybe twice.

On 3/18/2013 12:45 AM, Roland Wilhelmy wrote:
> Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders.  You're on your
> own for opening the cases.
>
> -Roland
>
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote:
>
> ::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have
> ::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder,
> ::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors.
> ::It does not start the car.
> ::
> ::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years.  These
> ::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the
> ::door handle to get in.  You press a button to start the car.
> ::So, the transponder is used a lot.  Still, we get a lot of warning
> ::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just
> ::go to the dealer to replace it.
> ::
> ::You can probably also google for instructions on how to
> ::replace the battery yourself.  My mechanic showed me and it
> ::was a simple process.
> ::

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Mar 18 03:06:52 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:06:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <514668E9.5060605@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <OF65871FCA.EF1C6642-ON85257B32.0031CC92-85257B32.00338E01@mail.megageek.com>

Dave writes...

>I hadn't thought of that; good idea.
>
>
>On 3/17/2013 5:28 PM, Pat Horne wrote:
>> I would use the same type of brass key  if I were the outdoors type 
>> and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the 
>> transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the 
>> car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door. 


Not to hijack this thread or anything, but this is why I installed the 
true 'keyless' entry into my truck.  Instead of using any key or fob to 
get into the car, I can just lock the key (with the transponder) in the 
car.  Then when I need to get in, I just type in the code to the keypad. 
It's perfect for this.


Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Mon Mar 18 04:02:38 2013
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 06:02:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <OF65871FCA.EF1C6642-ON85257B32.0031CC92-85257B32.00338E01@mail.megageek.com>
References: <514668E9.5060605@frontier.com>
	<OF65871FCA.EF1C6642-ON85257B32.0031CC92-85257B32.00338E01@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRVVsiQC73_=gi8h2rz8HmoC+PvKjOYY9kaLh+W4-RCbQg@mail.gmail.com>

Someone mentioned that the transponder key makes it easier for hi tech
thieves to steal cars, which is apparently true with some brands.  See link
below for a story with CCTV clips of the actual theft.  I understand BMW
has blocked this method with new software, but this sounds an awful lot
like a zero day hack that Microsoft fixes only to have more appear.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/10/21/video-bmw-m3-stolen-with-obd-key-cloning/

Ian

From marka at maracing.com  Mon Mar 18 07:51:58 2013
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:51:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
	<5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGPMc+HgU=z4k3SJKH8xqdzYYGAiW0LR7fvD0ew_Cdg02A@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

Suddenly I care about this, as a new owner of a 2012 GTI... :-)

When you replace the battery, do you have to reprogram anything?

Mark

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> I got to be a pro at replacing the batteries on the VAG (VW) fobs. They
> don't *look* like they want to be opened, but it's easy after the first time
> and you realize you're not going to break it.
>
> Of course, Radio Shack (near me) doesn't carry the battery, but they're
> common and Amazon Prime has them here in two days.
>
> I haven't had to do the GM one yet. I don't remember the Ford ones being a
> problem--only had to do those once, maybe twice.
>
> On 3/18/2013 12:45 AM, Roland Wilhelmy wrote:
>>
>> Radio Shack stocks batteries for some transponders.  You're on your
>> own for opening the cases.
>>
>> -Roland
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:04 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> ::In our case, with our two Priuses (Prii?) we sort of have
>> ::a key: if you press the right switch on the transponder,
>> ::a tiny almost toy key comes out that will unlock the doors.
>> ::It does not start the car.
>> ::
>> ::We've had transponder keys for at least 10 years.  These
>> ::are the type you leave in your pocket, and simply touch the
>> ::door handle to get in.  You press a button to start the car.
>> ::So, the transponder is used a lot.  Still, we get a lot of warning
>> ::when there is a transponder problem (low battery) and we just
>> ::go to the dealer to replace it.
>> ::
>> ::You can probably also google for instructions on how to
>> ::replace the battery yourself.  My mechanic showed me and it
>> ::was a simple process.
>> ::
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From marka at maracing.com  Mon Mar 18 07:52:58 2013
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:52:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <OF65871FCA.EF1C6642-ON85257B32.0031CC92-85257B32.00338E01@mail.megageek.com>
References: <514668E9.5060605@frontier.com>
	<OF65871FCA.EF1C6642-ON85257B32.0031CC92-85257B32.00338E01@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGMcNvkT4ChkRnUbacvwb=NmjWDhGePNt_ag9Hy-4YgNeQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

A lot of you folks have a whole lot more faith in "batteries that
don't go dead" than I do.

:-)

Mark

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:06 AM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> Dave writes...
>
>>I hadn't thought of that; good idea.
>>
>>
>>On 3/17/2013 5:28 PM, Pat Horne wrote:
>>> I would use the same type of brass key  if I were the outdoors type
>>> and didn't want to hike or run with the chance of loosing the
>>> transponder key in my pocket. Just lock the transponder key inside the
>>> car (hidden) and use the cheap key to open the door.
>
>
> Not to hijack this thread or anything, but this is why I installed the
> true 'keyless' entry into my truck.  Instead of using any key or fob to
> get into the car, I can just lock the key (with the transponder) in the
> car.  Then when I need to get in, I just type in the code to the keypad.
> It's perfect for this.
>
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Mon Mar 18 08:01:14 2013
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:01:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGPMc+HgU=z4k3SJKH8xqdzYYGAiW0LR7fvD0ew_Cdg02A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
	<5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com>
	<CAAoSWGPMc+HgU=z4k3SJKH8xqdzYYGAiW0LR7fvD0ew_Cdg02A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOEriim5DgmcDaH9ZaCzEyhHtkc-vv00XHYPef3nyVfQY1yi-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

I've had a number of VW's and Audi's and the batteries in those switchblade
keys last a really long time.  When you change them, you don't typically
have to do any additional programming or anything.  Programming comes when
you get a new fob that was not previously associated with your car.

I think people are confusing terms here.  The transponder keys are just
normal keys that you put into the ignition.  They are separate from the
keyless entry feature in your car.  They have an added security feature
that requires a transponder chip to be near the ignition before the car
will be allowed to start.  These have been on GM cars for at least a
decade.  I now have a car with the keyless ignition.  That is the type of
key that allows you to unlock your door and start the car with the key in
your pocket.  The transponder key doesn't require any kind of battery to
work.  The keyless ignition fob does require a battery and it goes through
them more quickly than a traditional keyless entry remote.
-Paul

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> Suddenly I care about this, as a new owner of a 2012 GTI... :-)
>
> When you replace the battery, do you have to reprogram anything?
>
> Mark

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Mar 18 08:09:53 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:09:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGPMc+HgU=z4k3SJKH8xqdzYYGAiW0LR7fvD0ew_Cdg02A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
	<5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com>
	<CAAoSWGPMc+HgU=z4k3SJKH8xqdzYYGAiW0LR7fvD0ew_Cdg02A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51472031.2000204@gmail.com>

Nope, just pull the key off the end of the fob assembly, split the 
transmitter part of the assembly, and swap the battery.

If you ever have to to it, let me know. It's a two-minute job, no tools.

Have I mentioned recently how much I love working on German cars? Almost 
like someone thought about it when they were designing the car.

On 3/18/2013 9:51 AM, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Suddenly I care about this, as a new owner of a 2012 GTI... :-)
>
> When you replace the battery, do you have to reprogram anything?

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Mon Mar 18 20:40:12 2013
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:40:12 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tell me about transponder keys
In-Reply-To: <CAOEriim5DgmcDaH9ZaCzEyhHtkc-vv00XHYPef3nyVfQY1yi-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51461F66.6050609@frontier.com>
	<CAAy7z=0mxSnKDymB-HOhymQD+MOdnDWvbEGjER5A1spkn_-uDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<vn6dk81cbt3mj679ba1uiv12kprqj40ues@4ax.com>
	<5146AEDB.6020405@gmail.com>
	<CAAoSWGPMc+HgU=z4k3SJKH8xqdzYYGAiW0LR7fvD0ew_Cdg02A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOEriim5DgmcDaH9ZaCzEyhHtkc-vv00XHYPef3nyVfQY1yi-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5147D00C.5060905@frontier.com>

On 3/18/2013 7:01 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> I think people are confusing terms here.  The transponder keys are just
> normal keys that you put into the ignition.  They are separate from the
> keyless entry feature in your car.  They have an added security feature
> that requires a transponder chip to be near the ignition before the car
> will be allowed to start.


Which brings us back to my original post.

I have spent some more time with Google and reading your posts (thanks 
for the responses) and think I have it figured out.  First of all, yes, 
I am just concerned with the keys, not the keyless entry fob.

The transponder keys apparently have one of various types of RFID chip 
embedded in them.  The car is programmed to recognize that particular 
chip and won't start if the chip is not accompanying the key.  You can 
get a plain mechanical key that will unlock the door, but it won't start 
the car without the chip embedded in it.

According to Subaru you can only program the car to recognize four 
keys.  They get about $150 for a new key.  I talked to a locksmith 
today, and they can "clone" one of my existing keys for about $75 or so, 
and since it's a clone, the car shouldn't know the difference and it 
won't "count" against the total of four.

Since RFID chips are cheap and very common, I can only assume the 
dealers charge so much to for the keys and programming just because they 
can make a lot of money on it.  The locksmiths are doing OK, too, as it 
looks like the wholesale price on clone keys is about $25 or so.

In the short term I am just going to get a plain flat mechanical key for 
my wallet in case I lock the keys in the car.

Thanks again.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Mar 18 20:43:31 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:43:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
Message-ID: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>

The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently
broke.  While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are
photos and more details about the broken part here:
http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken
-door-catch.html#post803233

GE, in their infinite wisdom, doesn't sell a replacement catch alone; you have
to buy a new door seal.  Nor to they even sell just one side alone (it is a
side-by-side fridge); you have to buy both sides for $225!  That is a heck of
a lot of money to spend for a small piece of plastic.  So, I would like to try
to repair this one before shelling out for the replacement pieces.  I have
never had much luck gluing plastic, even with glues said to be made for it.
And, the fact that this piece is under stress every time the door opens and
closes (let alone the fact that it failed under such stress) doesn't give me
much confidence in glue.  Still, if there is a glue or solvent that someone
here knows of and thinks I should try, I am all ears.

My other option is to purchase a plastic welder, something like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/plastic-welding-kit-with-adjustable-temperature-
96464.html  I have been interested in buying one of these for a while, and
buying a $50 tool I can use again vs. paying $225 is a no-brainer, if this has
a good chance of working.  Does anyone here have experience with one of these
or a competitor's product?  What are the odds of my being able to join the two
pieces together well enough to stand up to repeated openings and closings?

Thanks.
Jim

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Mon Mar 18 20:54:30 2013
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:54:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <84A5964A-C47D-428F-B765-2EE91620F8A7@mac.com>

Wow, I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder!

Is there any way to incorporate some metal reinforcement?  That's what I
usually try to do when fixing something plastic.

-Darrell

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Mar 18 21:05:45 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:05:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5147D609.9000901@milleredp.com>

> or a competitor's product?  What are the odds of my being able to join the two
> pieces together well enough to stand up to repeated openings and closings?

With plastic, whether you're talking about heat-fusing or 
solvent-welding or something like an epoxy, it's ALL about what kind of 
plastic it is.

John.

From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Mar 18 21:14:26 2013
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:14:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <84A5964A-C47D-428F-B765-2EE91620F8A7@mac.com>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
	<84A5964A-C47D-428F-B765-2EE91620F8A7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <5147D812.1080005@comcast.net>

re: 'I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder! '


You've never heard of a PIG welder?

bs



On 3/18/2013 7:54 PM, Darrell Walker wrote:
> Wow, I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder!
>
> Is there any way to incorporate some metal reinforcement?  That's what I
> usually try to do when fixing something plastic.
>
> -Darrell
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Mar 18 21:43:11 2013
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:43:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5147DECF.80102@xxiii.com>

On 3/18/2013 10:43 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently
> broke.  While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are
> photos and more details about the broken part here:

Sorry, but it won't let you view pix unless registered & logged in.

> GE, in their infinite wisdom, doesn't sell a replacement catch alone; you have
> to buy a new door seal.  Nor to they even sell just one side alone (it is a

Might be able to find a new or partial replacement on ebay. To glue or 
weld, you need to know what kind of plastic it is. There are lots of 
guides on the 'net but some require destructive testing. Solvent cements 
work real well with a compatible plastic. Welding won't work if it's a 
thermoset plastic (one that will burn, not melt when heated.)

There are also services on ebay and elsewhere that will crank out 3D 
printed parts cheaply, given a CAD file of what you need.

-wc

From racertod at racertodd.com  Mon Mar 18 21:43:03 2013
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:43:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <84A5964A-C47D-428F-B765-2EE91620F8A7@mac.com>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
	<COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20130318203741.03ed5be8@mail.avvanta.com>

Darrell wrote:

>Wow, I didn't know there was such a thing as a plastic welder!

         Urethane Supply (www.urethanesupply.com/) carries supplies to 
repair most types of plastic.  Under the "How To" section they have info on 
how to identity and repair the various types of plastic.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 276,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       396,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 18 22:43:31 2013
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:43:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5147ECF3.80702@earthlink.net>

Jim - It all depends on the type of plastic.  See if you can find the 
recycle triangle with a number in it on the back of a similar piece then 
look that up.

If it is a clean break and a plastic that responds well to solvent type 
glue, that is probably the best bet.

As to plastic welding, you may be able to use a soldering iron. I've 
used a 30W for fine stuff and a 100W pencil iron with a flat tip for 
bigger things.  If you want a more precise temperature control, use a 
dimmer controlled outlet.  If you go this route, you are going to need 
donor plastic and then do some cleanup.  I would guess that this is not 
a match for your application.

If you do try welding/melting, try a scrap of similar plastic first, 
maybe from a broken toy.  Some melts nice.  Other plastic just turns 
into hard brittle goo.

Melting did work well for my plastic gas tank on my B&S lawn mower gas 
tank.  Mowing around a tree, I hit a branch in the wrong place and 
cracked the tank.  I drained it, rinsed it with water, then let it dry 
in the sun.  It was black plastic, a little flexible and slightly 
slippery.  I forget the number now.  I had some similar plastic from the 
packing of kids toys that I used as my solder or welding rod 
equivalent.  I heated up the plastic and made a mound then blended it 
all together.   This was much more economical than the $75 I was quoted 
for a replacement tank from a local vendor. When you finish, wipe the 
iron tip with a wet sponge, then clean it with flux and re-tin it and it 
will be like before.

You might also want to call some appliance repair places in your area.  
If you get lucky, you might find a guy that collects used parts and sell 
you one cheap.  I was able to go this route for some spa cover clips.  A 
local service place always cut the clips off old covers because they get 
broken fairly often.

Brian


On 3/18/2013 7:43 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently
> broke.  While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there are
> photos and more details about the broken part here:
> http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken
> -door-catch.html#post803233
>
> GE, in their infinite wisdom, doesn't sell a replacement catch alone; you have
> to buy a new door seal.  Nor to they even sell just one side alone (it is a
> side-by-side fridge); you have to buy both sides for $225!  That is a heck of
> a lot of money to spend for a small piece of plastic.  So, I would like to try
> to repair this one before shelling out for the replacement pieces.  I have
> never had much luck gluing plastic, even with glues said to be made for it.
> And, the fact that this piece is under stress every time the door opens and
> closes (let alone the fact that it failed under such stress) doesn't give me
> much confidence in glue.  Still, if there is a glue or solvent that someone
> here knows of and thinks I should try, I am all ears.
>
> My other option is to purchase a plastic welder, something like this:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/plastic-welding-kit-with-adjustable-temperature-
> 96464.html  I have been interested in buying one of these for a while, and
> buying a $50 tool I can use again vs. paying $225 is a no-brainer, if this has
> a good chance of working.  Does anyone here have experience with one of these
> or a competitor's product?  What are the odds of my being able to join the two
> pieces together well enough to stand up to repeated openings and closings?
>
> Thanks.
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Mar 19 06:36:36 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:36:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <OFC7E950D5.E8C2DA0D-ON85257B33.0043FF93-85257B33.00465666@mail.megageek.com>

Jim,

If you have a place close to you (there are a few around, I know of one in 
NYC) but you can go in to a hacker space and use their 3D printer.  They 
print in ABS and PLA plastics. 

I'm sure for a few "club Montes" (the unofficial soda of hacker spaces) 
you can even get a regular there scan it and print it for you.  They can 
even change the design to make it beefier.  (and you can get a copy of the 
file to print out more later.

I'm thinking of buying a 3D printer myself, but I can't find one that 
meets my needs.

Failing that, I'd love to hear how that plastic welder works.  I've seen 
it many times and have been tempted myself.



Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Mar 22 06:30:18 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:30:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <OFC7E950D5.E8C2DA0D-ON85257B33.0043FF93-85257B33.00465666@mail.megageek.com>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>,
	<OFC7E950D5.E8C2DA0D-ON85257B33.0043FF93-85257B33.00465666@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <COL002-W19B0F67E6820902FE7AEA7CCD40@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  Sorry for the delay; I have been traveling.  Some good ideas in
here.  I really like the idea of using a 3D printer; that would be very cool
and I would love to be able to say I did that.  I won't know if that is
possible until I remove the seal and see if I can take the broken piece out
and then put the seal back on.  Otherwise, I will need to repair it and put it
back on before the food in the fridge spoils.  In the meantime, I am keeping
an eye on eBay.  Since this seems to be a weak point on GE side by sides and
GE makes you buy a pair of them, it is possible that someone else will be
selling a single side.  And, I did discover an eBay appliance parts store that
sells the gaskets for $185, which is about $40 less than I had previously
found.

I did buy the HF plastic welder since I had a coupon that was going to expire
before I get home.  I will report back if I do decide to keep it and give it a
try.

> To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> From: eric at megageek.com
> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:36:36 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
>
> Jim,
>
> If you have a place close to you (there are a few around, I know of one in
> NYC) but you can go in to a hacker space and use their 3D printer.  They
> print in ABS and PLA plastics.
>
> I'm sure for a few "club Montes" (the unofficial soda of hacker spaces)
> you can even get a regular there scan it and print it for you.  They can
> even change the design to make it beefier.  (and you can get a copy of the
> file to print out more later.
>
> I'm thinking of buying a 3D printer myself, but I can't find one that
> meets my needs.
>
> Failing that, I'd love to hear how that plastic welder works.  I've seen
> it many times and have been tempted myself.
>
>
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Mar 22 06:56:14 2013
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:56:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W19B0F67E6820902FE7AEA7CCD40@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>,
	<OFC7E950D5.E8C2DA0D-ON85257B33.0043FF93-85257B33.00465666@mail.megageek.com>
	<COL002-W19B0F67E6820902FE7AEA7CCD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FE852696A49F413485CD8D54458D45CB@EricJRussellPC>

I have used Plastex  http://www.plastex.net/  to repair many plastic items. 
It has worked well for broken/missing attachment tabs on automobile consoles 
& motorcycle fairings.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

From roadster at astound.net  Fri Mar 22 10:55:55 2013
From: roadster at astound.net (Fred Katz)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:55:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <13BBB300-FE39-4B5A-A579-17B69A64C173@astound.net>

I have had great success using a product called Mxbon 105, along with baking
soda (sodium bicarbonate) to repair many plastic products. It's basically
super glue, or cyanoacrylate, but super refined and much more powerful than
regular super glue. It can be bought online, like at Amazon and hardware
outlets.

You spread a bit of baking soda powder in the crack, and then apply a drop of
super glue. It chemically alters the baking soda into becoming a plastic
polymer that bonds with your damaged plastic item. (It chemically reacts in
the presence of water vapor in the air and on the surface; no need to place
water there, it's invisible and always present). I've also recreated missing
portions of plastic in tools by filling in the area with baking soda and
applying this technique (do it outside as toxic fumes are created with large
portions, and wear gloves and goggles).

After a few seconds, you can sand the new plastic bond smooth. The finished
product is a polymer bond far stronger than epoxy or glue. I've had even
better results with sodium carbonate. You bake bicarbonate of soda (baking
powder) for 30 minutes on a cookie sheet, and it chemically transforms to
sodium carbonate (drives out the oxygen). Mxbon 105 is a fast acting super
glue. Mxbon 424 is a slower acting super glue to give more time to position
the pieces.

Fred

On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently
> broke.  While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there
are
> photos and more details about the broken part here:
>
http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken
> -door-catch.html#post803233

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Mar 22 19:45:29 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:45:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
In-Reply-To: <13BBB300-FE39-4B5A-A579-17B69A64C173@astound.net>
References: <COL002-W86C8D51A69690493E38D81CCE90@phx.gbl>,
	<13BBB300-FE39-4B5A-A579-17B69A64C173@astound.net>
Message-ID: <COL002-W188CAD1AE2BCAA44A60006CCD50@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  Some
really interesting options here.  I had
not heard of
either MxBon or Plastex and both sound really intriguing.  After reading up on
both, I just ordered a
starter kit of Plastex.  I may buy the MxBon
later, if
only just to keep it around, but thought Id wait since it seems to
have a
shelf life.  Depending on what I
find when I remove the gasket, I may try
casting a new part or piece of the
part, or just try bonding the two pieces
together.  Once it is all together I am also thinking
about embedding
something like a small brad across the break to reinforce it,
but Ill take it
one step at a time.

 

Now, I have to decide whether to keep the
plastic
welder or return it.   And, if
all else fails, AppliancePartsPros is where I
got the $225 price for the new
gasket.

More to follow.

Jim

> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> From: roadster at astound.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing plastic - weld or glue?
> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:55:55 -0700
> To: jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> I have had great success using a product called Mxbon 105, along with baking
soda (sodium bicarbonate) to repair many plastic products. It's basically
super glue, or cyanoacrylate, but super refined and much more powerful than
regular super glue. It can be bought online, like at Amazon and hardware
outlets.
>
> You spread a bit of baking soda powder in the crack, and then apply a drop
of super glue. It chemically alters the baking soda into becoming a plastic
polymer that bonds with your damaged plastic item. (It chemically reacts in
the presence of water vapor in the air and on the surface; no need to place
water there, it's invisible and always present). I've also recreated missing
portions of plastic in tools by filling in the area with baking soda and
applying this technique (do it outside as toxic fumes are created with large
portions, and wear gloves and goggles).
>
> After a few seconds, you can sand the new plastic bond smooth. The finished
product is a polymer bond far stronger than epoxy or glue. I've had even
better results with sodium carbonate. You bake bicarbonate of soda (baking
powder) for 30 minutes on a cookie sheet, and it chemically transforms to
sodium carbonate (drives out the oxygen). Mxbon 105 is a fast acting super
glue. Mxbon 424 is a slower acting super glue to give more time to position
the pieces.
>
> Fred
>
> On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
>
> > The plastic catch that holds the door closed on my refrigerator recently
> > broke.  While it isn't necessary to the question I am about to ask, there
are
> > photos and more details about the broken part here:
> >
http://forum.appliancepartspros.com/refrigerator-freezer-repair/519815-broken
> > -door-catch.html#post803233
> >
> <snip>

From Jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Mar 24 09:50:26 2013
From: Jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim and Kathy)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP336D92B01236F0E507B2AC7CCD60@phx.gbl>

I have a very strange electrical problem at my vacation home and am hoping
someone here has an idea of what could be going on.  I appologize in advance
for the length of this explanation but don't think I can describe it in fewer
words.

All I wanted to do this morning was replace a couple of old (probably from the
60's) outlets.  I removed the outlet from one box and found something strange.
There were two sets of wires in the box, one two wire and one three.  (The
house was built in the late 50's and uses greenfield cable with the ground
coming from the box.). The two black wires were connected and the right side
of the outlet had one white wire connected  and the left  side had one white
and one red.  The outlet was an old non-grounded one, so there was no way to
tell which side was supposed to be hot.  But, my simple electrical tester
showed the side with the two wires was the hot side; that is, both completed a
circuit when touched to the single white wire or the box.  What may be
significant that didn't register to begin with is the fact that both wires
(the red and the white on the left side) were hot.

It was all strange but I replaced the outlet with a new one, wiring it exactly
as before.  Everything tested fine, so I was about to move to the second
outlet when we realized that about half of the circuits in the house were out.
All circuit breakers looked fine.  I then remembered that the two left wires
were both hot, meaning it wasn't a case where one cable was going in and the
other going out.  It occurred to me the original outlet might have been
adapted for two circuits, although there were no tabs to break off as in a
modern receptacle.  I broke the left side tab off of the new outlet but
nothing changed.  At one point, I also turned off and on the main and each
circuit breaker but nothing changed.  Then, several circuits came back on, but
at what appeared to be half power.  I don't have a meter here but the lights
were very dim.

I tested a GFCI that was on the same circuit and it was not working, at least
until I got a shock and realized that the white wire was open but black was
still hot.  I got the shock by touching the ground and black at the same
time.

OK, last bit of diagnostic info.  I dismantled the old original outlet and it
is not designed for separate circuits. The two wires on the left were being
tied together, exactly as they had been when I first replaced it with a modern
one.

Everything worked just fine before I replaced the outlet.  The only problem
was that it was worn and didn't hold a plug in very tight.  Now I don't know
what the heck is going on or what I may have done wrong.  Does anyone have any
ideas?

Thanks.

Jim
Sent from my iPad

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 24 14:52:50 2013
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:52:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP336D92B01236F0E507B2AC7CCD60@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU0-SMTP336D92B01236F0E507B2AC7CCD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <514F67A2.8070005@earthlink.net>

Jim - It sounds like a circuit diagram is necessary to find out what 
wire is doing what.

Some ideas to help (remembering that electricity is dangerous and you 
need to use appropriate caution):

- Make a diagram of the outlet including each connection so you can 
always put it back together the old way

- Turn off the circuit and disconnect each wire.  Verify each wire has 
no power.  A non-contact voltage tester is helpful.  Put a wire nut on 
each bare end for safety.

- Turn the power back on and see which wire is the hot supply.  If that 
is the two wire cable, you found your neutral, which should be the other 
wire in the pair.  If it is the three wire cable (black or red), that 
white wire is probably your neutral and the other wire (red or black) 
may be a second hot wire on another circuit.

- You already figured out some of the outlets after this on in the 
circuit.  I'd go to the next closest outlet and make the same diagram in 
that outlet.  Hopefully, it will make more sense with a single pair in 
and out.  With the power off and verified with a voltage tester, put a 
continuity checker on the wire pair in one outlet box and touch the 
wires in the second box to verify you have the wire pair identified. 
This process should help further figure out the wiring in the home.

Other things that may help:

- disconnected wires, such as when the circuit breaker is off or when 
the neutral is disconnected my indicate an odd voltage with a digital 
volt meter.  Put a load on the wires and the voltage will go to near 
zero.  I used a lamp socket with a light bulb.

- if you have metal boxes, they may be wired with a ground wire 
independent of the electrical supply wires.  This was the case in my my 
first and my current houses.

- three conductor wire may have been used to run two circuits with a 
single wire pair.  Two hots share a neutral.  I don't think this is code 
anymore and don't recommend it.  Part of the theory is that if they are 
out a phase (different lines of the 220 supply), the single neutral can 
handle it.

- The red may be a switched circuit, where perhaps there was a wall 
switch that controlled the outlet.  If you have any wall switches, check 
them and see if they come into play in your circuit diagram. At some 
point, an overhead light may have been connected to the wall switch and 
the old wires to the outlet were just left behind.

- Some electricians follow a pattern on supply into the top of the box 
and next outlet out the bottom of the box (I may have that backwards) 
for wall outlets, so if you are mapping multiple outlets, that may make 
things easier.

Good luck with the project.  Taking the time to do the full circuit 
diagram in my 1950 built house was critical to understanding the 
problems I was having and figuring out a way to fix issues, such as 
every outlet but one in the original portion of the house including the 
refrigerator on the same circuit.  I ended up rewiring all those outlets 
into four circuits and ended the common computer lockups or beeping UPS 
warnings.

Brian



On 3/24/2013 8:50 AM, Jim and Kathy wrote:
> I have a very strange electrical problem at my vacation home and am hoping
> someone here has an idea of what could be going on.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Mar 24 16:04:44 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:04:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues
In-Reply-To: <514F67A2.8070005@earthlink.net>
References: <BLU0-SMTP336D92B01236F0E507B2AC7CCD60@phx.gbl>
	<514F67A2.8070005@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <COL401-EAS71C9664C27D41C01CD4818CCD60@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys. I had to leave the house right after posting this but I will
spend more time on it tomorrow and report back. The 'switched outlet' might be
a winner, as a ceiling fan was added to the room at one point and there are
two separate light switches, one for the fan and one for the light.
The thing that confuses me (besides the white/black part) is the fact that
both the red and white were hot. Wiring them together should have produced 240
volts and fried something, unless they were somehow now redundant and both
connected to the same circuit.
More to follow, I'm an sure!
Jim

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 24, 2013, at 4:53 PM, "Brian Kemp" <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jim - It sounds like a circuit diagram is necessary to find out what wire is
doing what.
>
> Some ideas to help (remembering that electricity is dangerous and you need
to use appropriate caution):
>
> - Make a diagram of the outlet including each connection so you can always
put it back together the old way
>
> - Turn off the circuit and disconnect each wire.  Verify each wire has no
power.  A non-contact voltage tester is helpful.  Put a wire nut on each bare
end for safety.
>
> - Turn the power back on and see which wire is the hot supply.  If that is
the two wire cable, you found your neutral, which should be the other wire in
the pair.  If it is the three wire cable (black or red), that white wire is
probably your neutral and the other wire (red or black) may be a second hot
wire on another circuit.
>
> - You already figured out some of the outlets after this on in the circuit.
I'd go to the next closest outlet and make the same diagram in that outlet.
Hopefully, it will make more sense with a single pair in and out.  With the
power off and verified with a voltage tester, put a continuity checker on the
wire pair in one outlet box and touch the wires in the second box to verify
you have the wire pair identified. This process should help further figure out
the wiring in the home.
>
> Other things that may help:
>
> - disconnected wires, such as when the circuit breaker is off or when the
neutral is disconnected my indicate an odd voltage with a digital volt meter.
Put a load on the wires and the voltage will go to near zero.  I used a lamp
socket with a light bulb.
>
> - if you have metal boxes, they may be wired with a ground wire independent
of the electrical supply wires.  This was the case in my my first and my
current houses.
>
> - three conductor wire may have been used to run two circuits with a single
wire pair.  Two hots share a neutral.  I don't think this is code anymore and
don't recommend it.  Part of the theory is that if they are out a phase
(different lines of the 220 supply), the single neutral can handle it.
>
> - The red may be a switched circuit, where perhaps there was a wall switch
that controlled the outlet.  If you have any wall switches, check them and see
if they come into play in your circuit diagram. At some point, an overhead
light may have been connected to the wall switch and the old wires to the
outlet were just left behind.
>
> - Some electricians follow a pattern on supply into the top of the box and
next outlet out the bottom of the box (I may have that backwards) for wall
outlets, so if you are mapping multiple outlets, that may make things easier.
>
> Good luck with the project.  Taking the time to do the full circuit diagram
in my 1950 built house was critical to understanding the problems I was having
and figuring out a way to fix issues, such as every outlet but one in the
original portion of the house including the refrigerator on the same circuit.
I ended up rewiring all those outlets into four circuits and ended the common
computer lockups or beeping UPS warnings.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> On 3/24/2013 8:50 AM, Jim and Kathy wrote:
>> I have a very strange electrical problem at my vacation home and am hoping
>> someone here has an idea of what could be going on.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Mar 25 07:21:05 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 08:21:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues
Message-ID: <COL002-W1832D3C86AC5147F7910F8CCD70@phx.gbl>

I
am home now and think I understand what is up and what needs to be done.
It is actually pretty simple in the end, but given
the way it was done
originally, I still want to run things by this group before
I fix it.


I traced the wires back to the panel and from the outlet box out.  The two
wire conduit was the circuit in, the
three wire went out to the ceiling
fan/light box.  (My recollection about the two switch boxes was
wrong; it was
a single box with a double switch.) Here is where it gets
interesting.  The
red and black wires
were just connected together in the switch box. 
So, that
explains why the red wire was hot in the outlet; it was just coming
back that
way from the switch box.


The black and red wires were joined in the switch box  with another black for
the next circuit and a jumper wire that went to the common side of the duplex
switch.  Another three wire left the
switch box for the fan/light.  All three
whites
were joined and the new red/black/wires wires went off to the
fan/light.


So, while I still don't understand what was done to begin, it seems to me
that
all I have to do now is ignore the red wire in the outlet box and wire
the
outlet as normal with a white/black in and a white/black out to the fan
switch
box.  I think the switch as wired will be
fine.


Does this all make sense?  Am I missing
anything?  It seems too easy after
the
complications and I am still left with a nagging doubt about how and why
it was originally wired.

 

As
for the original, I think I know now how it
was wired and what I did wrong when
I replaced the outlet.  The two white
wires should have been on the same side, with just the red wire on the other.
It would be making a very circuitous route,
from the outlet box to the switch
box and back, but I think it would work.  Still, it would be much easier to
just eliminate it and wire it the normal way. 
Correct?

 

As
always,
thanks!

 

Jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Mar 25 18:30:39 2013
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 0:30:39 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Strange electrical house issues
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W1832D3C86AC5147F7910F8CCD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20130326003039.EWDL9.120737.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>

---- Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote: 
> Does this all make sense?  Am I missing
> anything?  It seems too easy after
> the
> complications and I am still left with a nagging doubt about how and why
> it was originally wired.

Makes sense to me.  I'll guess that the original configuration was one of the switches controlling the outlet (hence the extra red wire carried power from the switch back to the outlet).  Or maybe someone just got confused and pulled an extra wire then wasn't sure what to do with it.

My only comment is that I would prefer to tie off (insulate) the red wire in some fashion at both ends.  Don't take a chance on the next guy forgetting that it is unused, and connecting it to power at one end.

Lots of strange things happen over the years.  My previous house had a fuse in the neutral at the box.  When the fuse opened up, most of the lights went very dim while the one in the utility room (and perhaps a few others) got extremely bright.

Randall