From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Jan  1 14:53:43 2013
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 13:53:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] HVLP Paint Guns
Message-ID: <50E35AE7.80205@comcast.net>

Any auto paint experts out there?  I've been researching, practicing, etc. for a while and would appreciate any tips.  
We've been painting with a Harbor Freight HVLP; their 'best' model (quality is relative, I know).

My question: Is it worth investing in a top quality gun and, if so, which brand (DeVilbiss, Iwata, etc.).  I know 
preparation, mixture, technique, etc. is more important than anything, but assuming I've learned a little in 40-50 hours 
of painting will a better gun help? In particular, I watch the 'pros' paint on various car shows and it seems like they 
always get a much wider spray pattern than I can get with the HF gun at any pressure or nozzle setting.  Also, the pros 
seem to move more quickly than I usually do--if I just 'mist' the paint on I get a grainy finish.  Is this due to the 
gun, or something else?

We're backyard painters, so we know we'll never get booth quality, but, is a better gun worth an extra $300 or so?  We 
have several projects to paint so I could justify the cost, given we're saving thousands and will get reasonable quality 
(albeit with a lot of extra sanding).

We're shooting PPG Omni, single stage only.

TIA,
Bob

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Jan  1 14:59:16 2013
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 16:59:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HVLP Paint Guns
In-Reply-To: <50E35AE7.80205@comcast.net>
References: <50E35AE7.80205@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <F5731D04CA3E4494BF453DE3F35D7DEC@EricJRussellPC>

Is there a technical school local to you? They often have adult/evening 
classes whereby you can get access to things like a spray booth and 
pro-quality equipment.

Even if you still want to do the painting in your backyard you might be able 
to try out some different models of equipment to see how they compare to 
your eL-Cheapo HF unit.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>

> My question: Is it worth investing in a top quality gun and, if so, which 
> brand (DeVilbiss, Iwata, etc.).
> We're backyard painters, so we know we'll never get booth quality, but, is 
> a better gun worth an extra $300 or so? 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan  1 16:25:53 2013
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:25:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HVLP Paint Guns
In-Reply-To: <F5731D04CA3E4494BF453DE3F35D7DEC@EricJRussellPC>
References: <50E35AE7.80205@comcast.net>
	<F5731D04CA3E4494BF453DE3F35D7DEC@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9X0yzQfe5kiFrLUO1HDs9bgNb4J0sZcMZOR56Q1hF+MjA@mail.gmail.com>

I have painted (with single-stage AU) a couple of cars over the last 2-3
years, using the classic purple HF gun for primer and some topcoat, and a
DeVilbiss Finish Line gun for most topcoats.  My impression is that
technique is more important than the choice of gun (unless you are trying
to use a terrible gun).  One criteria for pros is the speed of painting.
For hobby use that is not so relevant.

In my experience, the most common error is not turning the paint flow up
high enough, or moving too fast for the paint flow you have set.  This will
guarantee orange-peel.  The second biggest issue is not using a consistent
pattern, which may give ou orange-peel or runs at edges or corners, where
you didn't use the right moves.  If all you painted were medium-size flat
rectangles, it would be easy to get even coverage...

Doug

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>
>  My question: Is it worth investing in a top quality gun and, if so, which
>> brand (DeVilbiss, Iwata, etc.).
>> We're backyard painters, so we know we'll never get booth quality, but,
>> is a better gun worth an extra $300 or so?

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jan  3 15:49:27 2013
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:49:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software
Message-ID: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>

Since Ibm looking for some cheap or free software for
my one man business (so that I can spend more time
in my shop) I suspect that many others have been in the same
position.  I hope that some can share with me what youbve
learned.

I am retired and now have a very small one man business
and would like to get better organized by utilizing some of
the free or very low cost business software.  I need to track
customer orders usually with payments, shipments,
purchase orders, payables and other misc. expenses.
I do not need any employee salaries, etc.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From mark at bradakis.com  Thu Jan  3 15:57:48 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:57:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software
In-Reply-To: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>
References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>
Message-ID: <50E60CEC.6090902@bradakis.com>

You may want to look at freshbooks.com and see if it fits your needs.

mjb.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Jan  3 17:50:00 2013
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 18:50:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software
In-Reply-To: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>
References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>
Message-ID: <001901cdea15$6d02b840$470828c0$@ameritech.net>

I've used Intuit QuickBooks for nearly 20 years - in fact I alpha and beta
test it for them most years.
Simple, reasonably-priced, and there are add-ons (if and only if and when
you need them) for payroll, credit card processing, and on and on.  Remote
access via smart phone is also available as a built-in function if you wish.

Karl



-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software

Since Ibm looking for some cheap or free software for my one man business
(so that I can spend more time in my shop) I suspect that many others have
been in the same position.  I hope that some can share with me what youbve
learned.

I am retired and now have a very small one man business and would like to
get better organized by utilizing some of the free or very low cost business
software.  I need to track customer orders usually with payments, shipments,
purchase orders, payables and other misc. expenses.
I do not need any employee salaries, etc.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jan  3 18:01:18 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:01:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] True "keyless" entry add on
Message-ID: <OF91CDFEBE.44305F89-ON85257AE9.000508BE-85257AE9.0006F722@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I bought a new (to me) GMC Envoy XUV.  It's a very versatile truck and 
I'm really digging it. 

I've spent a few days adding my "touches" to it, but there is one thing 
that eludes me, and I was hoping if maybe a car guy here would have the 
answer.

My old Ford explorer had a true "keyless" entry system.  This means that 
it had a number pad on the door and you could unlock the door by putting 
the code in.

Does anyone know if an aftermarket system like this exists?  When I do my 
searches, I only come up with systems that use a remote transmitter to 
open the door.

Here is my thinking, it shouldn't be hard to make this add on.  If you 
have a key pad that has constant power, all it would need is a relay to 
the electric door lock wires.

OR, could I get a system out of a Ford in the junk yard and add it myself?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From racertod at racertodd.com  Thu Jan  3 20:28:00 2013
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:28:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] True "keyless" entry add on
In-Reply-To: <OF91CDFEBE.44305F89-ON85257AE9.000508BE-85257AE9.0006F722@
	mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20130103191509.00cfc5c0@mail.avvanta.com>

         Found this.  Saw the system listed for around $170.  I assume 
you'd have to cut an opening in the door for the keypad.
         Other thing that would concern me is that in most newer vehicles 
many systems communicate electronically via CANBUS and any add-on would 
have to not upset the computers.  On my TDI, for example, the door lock 
unit has several micro switches that report on the state of the lock and 
handle position and transmit that info to the car.  This info is used to 
activate/set off the alarm, turn on interior lights, etc.  I'd want to be 
darn sure that this sort of item will work in your specific vehicle before 
shelling out the dough.

http://www.keyless.com/vehiclekeyless.htm

Pricing from here:
<http://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=AKE-5>


         This is clever, the "keypad" is behind the windshield so no 
cutting.  Don't know what company makes the system they install or if it 
can be done by a DIY'er.
http://www.enormis.net/products/product?id=56&category_id=6


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 275,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       382,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 20:47:17 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (scott.hall.personal at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 03:47:17 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?shop_business_software?=
In-Reply-To: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>
References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>
Message-ID: <50e650c8.e6bd3a0a.75c4.ffffb092@mx.google.com>

Man, Steve, I hate, hate, HATE QuickBooks, but it might be the best bet in your instance.

 

Itbs not free or even particularly cheap though. 

 

if it was me, Ibd use an Access database for the shipping stuff, and see what personal-finance program you can pick up for $19.99 for the accounting part of it. Or get a filing cabinet and a ledger book.

 

But if you go with QuickBooks and need help (or *when* you need help, really) feel free to shoot me an email.  Ibll be happy to help.

 

 

From: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA
Sent: bJanuaryb b3b, b2013 b5b:b49b bPM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software


Since Ibm looking for some cheap or free software for
my one man business (so that I can spend more time
in my shop) I suspect that many others have been in the same
position.  I hope that some can share with me what youbve
learned.

I am retired and now have a very small one man business
and would like to get better organized by utilizing some of
the free or very low cost business software.  I need to track
customer orders usually with payments, shipments,
purchase orders, payables and other misc. expenses.
I do not need any employee salaries, etc.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com

From mdporter at dfn.com  Thu Jan  3 21:01:50 2013
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:01:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop business software
In-Reply-To: <50e650c8.e6bd3a0a.75c4.ffffb092@mx.google.com>
References: <4F9C0186A25B483A9788A90B4EE10413@StevePC>
	<50e650c8.e6bd3a0a.75c4.ffffb092@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <50E6542E.7010001@dfn.com>

On 1/3/2013 8:47 PM, scott.hall.personal at gmail.com wrote:
> Man, Steve, I hate, hate, HATE QuickBooks, but it might be the best bet in your instance.
>
>   
>
> Itbs not free or even particularly cheap though.
>
>   
>
>

Another possibility might be to just go to sourceforge.net and put 
"business" into the search bar and see what pops up.  Can't cost 
anything but the time to download and test.  All open source.  As is 
Open Office, if one doesn't have Access or M$ Office Suite.


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 10:00:28 2013
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 11:00:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] radiator reuse
Message-ID: <CA+k5suriuiZ8gw+Mftdb05pLa1JrMo5iSsVMX9pRC+3m-if5hA@mail.gmail.com>

We've got single pipe steam heat.  We're also missing a radiator in
the bedroom.  (the riser is there, just capped off. still has a valve,
even.) By coincidence, my brother has replaced a radiator in his
house, with a small modern thing.  They've got hot water heat
(originally two pipe steam).  There's no reason I can't remove the air
bleed valve, fit an air valve, fit a plug on output on that side, and
use it with the single pipe steam, is there?  The radiator is a bit
smaller than it ought to be, but I can't really beat the price.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jan  6 10:47:23 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:47:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection
Message-ID: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I've been using my autodarkening welding helmet for my plasma cutting 
since I got the cutter.  It works OK, but I can't see any lines that I 
make to great cuts.

So I watched a video on line and the guy was only using sunglasses.  So I 
got a see of 100% UV protection sunglasses eye protection (not consumer 
glasses, but actual eye goggles.)  They were even in the welding section.

Now when I use them for plasma cutting, I can see great.  The only 
problem, my eyes seem to feel like they are getting a little "snow 
blinded' when I'm done cutting.

So my questions are...

What should I be using for plasma cutting?
Can I still use the glasses without any ill effects?
Is there a better way to mark the pieces to be cut so I can see them with 
my welding helmet?

Thanks!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From shochschild at att.net  Sun Jan  6 11:04:40 2013
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:04:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] radiator reuse
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5suriuiZ8gw+Mftdb05pLa1JrMo5iSsVMX9pRC+3m-if5hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+k5suriuiZ8gw+Mftdb05pLa1JrMo5iSsVMX9pRC+3m-if5hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50E9BCB8.9090409@att.net>

Not only will this work, but even better, it gives you a great excuse to 
buy a mini-lathe!

On 1/6/2013 11:00 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
> We've got single pipe steam heat.  We're also missing a radiator in
> the bedroom.  (the riser is there, just capped off. still has a valve,
> even.) By coincidence, my brother has replaced a radiator in his
> house, with a small modern thing.  They've got hot water heat
> (originally two pipe steam).  There's no reason I can't remove the air
> bleed valve, fit an air valve, fit a plug on output on that side, and
> use it with the single pipe steam, is there?  The radiator is a bit
> smaller than it ought to be, but I can't really beat the price.

From shochschild at att.net  Sun Jan  6 11:14:50 2013
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:14:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection
In-Reply-To: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <50E9BF1A.2080101@att.net>

I use my Miller Elite auto-darkening helmet dialed back to about a 5, 
myself.  I also have a grade 5 face shield I use sometimes.  What grade 
are your goggles?  I bet they are two...

I use a soapstone marker, but more helpfully, I hung a very bright 
halogen (Harbor Freight) work light over the table where I am cutting.  
It helps a lot by eliminating some of the contrast and glare between the 
point source of the nozzle and the surface of the piece.


On 1/6/2013 11:47 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, I've been using my autodarkening welding helmet for my plasma cutting
> since I got the cutter.  It works OK, but I can't see any lines that I
> make to great cuts.
>
> So I watched a video on line and the guy was only using sunglasses.  So I
> got a see of 100% UV protection sunglasses eye protection (not consumer
> glasses, but actual eye goggles.)  They were even in the welding section.
>
> Now when I use them for plasma cutting, I can see great.  The only
> problem, my eyes seem to feel like they are getting a little "snow
> blinded' when I'm done cutting.
>
> So my questions are...
>
> What should I be using for plasma cutting?
> Can I still use the glasses without any ill effects?
> Is there a better way to mark the pieces to be cut so I can see them with
> my welding helmet?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild at att.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jan  6 13:29:44 2013
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 15:29:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection
In-Reply-To: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <50E9DEB8.1020503@xxiii.com>

On 1/6/2013 12:47 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Now when I use them for plasma cutting, I can see great.  The only
> problem, my eyes seem to feel like they are getting a little "snow
> blinded' when I'm done cutting.

If you're noticing effects, or have that gritty / itchy eye thing, then 
you're DEFINITELY doing damage, and are very correct to be seeking 
better protection. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you. A 
friend & I did welding classes at the local community college a few 
years ago, and he went crazy with it, and now has a Miller Dynasty MIG / 
TIG box and plasma cutter in his garage now. You can get helmets and 
glasses / goggles with different darkness ratings. Our school supplies 
list spec'ed both with suggested numbers, but I don't recall what they 
were. I'd hit your local welding supply shop and see what they have or 
suggest.

The friend I mentioned is a rather large guy, and spent a few hours on a 
welding project -- with some belly hanging out from under his shirt. And 
ended up with a nasty sunburn "belt" around him from the UV exposure. 
You DON'T want that hitting your eyeballs!

-wc

From jem at milleredp.com  Sun Jan  6 13:54:00 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:54:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection
In-Reply-To: <50E9BF1A.2080101@att.net>
References: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>
	<50E9BF1A.2080101@att.net>
Message-ID: <50E9E468.5020308@milleredp.com>

> I use a soapstone marker, but more helpfully, I hung a very bright
> halogen (Harbor Freight) work light over the table where I am cutting.
> It helps a lot by eliminating some of the contrast and glare between the
> point source of the nozzle and the surface of the piece.

Yep.  Two or three of 'em if possible.

For me having enough light on the work is the difference between a good 
weld or cut and a messy, wandering disaster.

John.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sun Jan  6 23:00:07 2013
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 01:00:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Plasma cutting eye protection
In-Reply-To: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF2499E0EE.724039C9-ON85257AEB.00615809-85257AEB.00631323@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1301070044020.52762@itonami.pair.com>

On Sun, 6 Jan 2013, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, I've been using my autodarkening welding helmet for my plasma cutting
> since I got the cutter.  It works OK, but I can't see any lines that I
> make to great cuts.

    What is the "autodarkening helmet", specifically?  I think you need a 
higher quality one.  That doesn't necessarily need to be really expensive. 
I use a Speedglas 9002X and, while I rarely plasma cut by hand since I got 
my CNC table, I didn't have much trouble seeing when I did.  I also setup 
guides, straight-edges or whatnot, which make following lines a lot 
easier.

    The difference between what you can see with a high-quality hood, 
versus a cheap one is alarming.  I had a low-end Jackson-made
hood previously, and thought it was fine... until I got a Speedglas.
Now I can see the arc, and the details of the adjacent puddle, and work 
piece, while tigging for example.  Immediately made my welds better when I 
switched hoods.  I kicked myself for wasting time with the low-end one.

    With very rare exceptions, if your body hurts after doing something, 
that means stop doing it ;)

--
  David Hillman

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan  8 16:59:06 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:59:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch
Message-ID: <OF56961F04.034C1ABC-ON85257AED.0082E673-85257AEE.00014556@mail.megageek.com>

OK, if you remember, I was asking how to disable the key "beeping" for a 
2004 GMC Envoy.

Well, I was installing a new radio, and started digging into the dash. 
Before I knew it, I had the entire steering column apart.  So, I got to 
thinking, there is a switch in the ignition to tell the computer when the 
key is in it.  If I cut that wire, it should fix that beep for good.

The only problem is, I can't figure out all the wires coming out of it.

Can anyone either point me to an exploded view of this key switch (or if 
you can send me a PDF if you have an electronic image of it.)

Or if you know which wire I need to cut, that would be great!

TIA for any assistance.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Tue Jan  8 17:47:19 2013
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:47:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch
In-Reply-To: <OF56961F04.034C1ABC-ON85257AED.0082E673-85257AEE.00014556@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF56961F04.034C1ABC-ON85257AED.0082E673-85257AEE.00014556@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP9WOZmx=B77uFfXS2Si4CARqy3oti0oq9G3Cr4tiE5wXQ@mail.gmail.com>

That was a problem I solved in my 2005 Subaru Outback by finding the source
of the beep, drilling into the box that contained the sounder and applying
a bit of RTV to the open side of the sounder so it is much quieter.

-Peter


On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 6:59 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> OK, if you remember, I was asking how to disable the key "beeping" for a
> 2004 GMC Envoy.
>
> Well, I was installing a new radio, and started digging into the dash.
> Before I knew it, I had the entire steering column apart.  So, I got to
> thinking, there is a switch in the ignition to tell the computer when the
> key is in it.  If I cut that wire, it should fix that beep for good.
>
> The only problem is, I can't figure out all the wires coming out of it.
>
> Can anyone either point me to an exploded view of this key switch (or if
> you can send me a PDF if you have an electronic image of it.)
>
> Or if you know which wire I need to cut, that would be great!
>
> TIA for any assistance.
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan  8 19:29:13 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:29:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP9WOZmx=B77uFfXS2Si4CARqy3oti0oq9G3Cr4tiE5wXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF1F477D60.DA86B130-ON85257AEE.000D69A5-85257AEE.000F03B3@mail.megageek.com>

I thought about that, but this GMC uses the radio speakers for the chime. 
It also is every other chime (lights, door open, etc) which I still 
wanted.

Here is what I did.  I disconnected the battery and rang out all the wires 
on the key.  There were two wires by themselves that has no connectivity 
without the key and a closed circuit with the key in the switch.  BINGO. I 
cut one of the wires and all is well!



Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Peter Murray <peterwmurray at gmail.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
01/08/2013 19:36

To
Shop-Talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Ignition switch






That was a problem I solved in my 2005 Subaru Outback by finding the 
source
of the beep, drilling into the box that contained the sounder and applying
a bit of RTV to the open side of the sounder so it is much quieter.

-Peter



> "

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jan 11 16:46:31 2013
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:46:31 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed
Message-ID: <000101cdf055$e24a77f0$a6df67d0$@ameritech.net>

I'm going to buy a smart level - probably the M-D SmartTool.  I have the
need for rigging my plane, and of course I've wanted one for years.  I
considered the Stabila too, but didn't see any advantage other than twice
the warrantee at twice the price.  I believe M-D was the first one to
manufacture these, at least 20 years ago.

 

Once upon a time they were sold with an interchangeable module, so you could
buy the electronics once and move the module from a 2' level to a 4' level,
or just use the bare module.  For whatever reason, they aren't
interchangeable any more.  You now have to buy a bare module, or a 2' or 4'
level with the module permanently mounted.

 

I think I should buy the 2' one, which I see as more convenient and the
right size for most of what I do.  It will fit directly into many places
where a 4' level is just too long (door headers, window sills and tops,
etc.).  The length shouldn't diminish the accuracy any - the modules are all
the same.  I figure that if I really need a 4' smart level, I can hold the
2' one on my 4' bubble level, using the shorter one for its accuracy and the
longer one for its length.  But I hesitate - because if some is good (a 2'
level), then more is better (a 4' level)    ;-)

 

Seriously, do some of you guys who use this stuff every day have any advice?

 

Thanks in advance!

Karl

 

PS - in case anyone ever considers buying the much-less-expensive 24"
electronic level from Sears - don't.  It's just not repeatable.  I can
measure my granite countertops and get different readings in the same spot
moments apart.  Just lift one end and set it back down again, and it may
well read different by a couple of tenths of a degree or more.  The joy of a
low sale price was rapidly diminished by the POS nature of the product.

 

 

 

Assault is a behavior, not a device.

64,999,997 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 11 17:04:15 2013
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 19:04:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed
In-Reply-To: <000101cdf055$e24a77f0$a6df67d0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20130112000415.Q7RPV.196602.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

---- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote: 
> Just lift one end and set it back down again, and it may
> well read different by a couple of tenths of a degree or more.  

Sounds defective to me, my 3' bubble level is better than that. (0.2 degrees over 4 feet is more than 1/8")   Take it back.

Sorry, can't help with the smart level.  Around here, even if it is dead nuts today, there'll likely be an earthquake next week and it won't be any more.  I probably use the 8" torpedo level as much as the 3 footer, though.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 11 17:45:24 2013
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 19:45:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed
Message-ID: <20130112004524.38WO2.196783.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

---- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote: 
> Just lift one end and set it back down again, and it may
> well read different by a couple of tenths of a degree or more.  

Sounds defective to me, my 3' bubble level is better than that. (0.2 degrees over 4 feet is more than 1/8")   Take it back.

Sorry, can't help with the smart level.  Around here, even if it is dead nuts today, there'll likely be an earthquake next week and it won't be any more.  I probably use the 8" torpedo level as much as the 3 footer, though.

Randall

From miatatom at gmail.com  Fri Jan 11 18:32:30 2013
From: miatatom at gmail.com (Tom Shirley)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:32:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Paint Booth/Glove Box
Message-ID: <CAP2zj2_4YCPSrW5NP4ZbeBXiSFFc0aScjr5tVYPvraCkGYRMbw@mail.gmail.com>

I've recently reentered the hobby of building model cars and with age comes
the desire for greater detail and a higher level of finish. With that in
mind I've been thinking about an idea to make a glove box serve as a spray
booth.


Back in the late 60s I worked at one of the nuclear weapons plants in Oak
Ridge, TN. Working in the lab, I spent my fair share of time working in a
glove box. If you're not familiar with it, it's a closed environment where
you can work on all sorts of nasty materials without contaminating the
surrounding area or yourself. Your arms fit into rubber gloves that are
attached and sealed. Here's something from Wiki:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glovebox



I'm thinking, why can't the same theory work for an enclosed spray booth.
I've drawn up some plans and instead of using the bulky gloves that come on
most cabinets, I would use a piece of tire inner tube, maybe off a big
truck or something. What I have in mind is cutting out something like a 10"
circle and attaching it to the cabinet with some sort of home made flange.
Lids off 1 gallon paint cans might work. The center of each 10" cut out
would have a small hole about the size of my forearm.


I've got a couple of questions. Should it be a down draft, up draft, side
draft or back draft booth? Also, I wonder how much flow I'll need to keep
the paint overspray from building up and obscuring vision? I typically
spray at low pressures like 15-20 psi.

Tom Shirley
www.sceniccitymiatas.com

From racertod at racertodd.com  Fri Jan 11 23:43:17 2013
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:43:17 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed
In-Reply-To: <000101cdf055$e24a77f0$a6df67d0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20130111223047.00d1b0a8@mail.avvanta.com>

         I bought my SmartTool level years ago with a camber gauge 
frame.  A couple of years ago I bought a 24" level for it - it was called 
an "extender rail".  Can't remember where I got it.

These guys show the 48" version.  On page 4 they show a combo pack - 
module, 24" and 48" rails:
<http://www.lascolaser.com/show_products.php?cat=Tools%20and%20Accessories&sub_cat=Smart%20Level&sort=&page=1>

Search on this site for "smarttool rail", they show both lengths:
http://www.aircraft-tool.com


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 276,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       384,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Jan 13 08:12:45 2013
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 09:12:45 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20130111223047.00d1b0a8@mail.avvanta.com>
References: <000101cdf055$e24a77f0$a6df67d0$@ameritech.net>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20130111223047.00d1b0a8@mail.avvanta.com>
Message-ID: <000c01cdf1a0$71c1cc80$55456580$@ameritech.net>

Thanks, Todd -

I hadn't looked at ATS.  I ordered the 24" and 48" levels (extender rails)
from them, and the module, magnetic bracket, and protective case from Amazon
(better price).

I suspect that M-D doesn't offer the "extender rails" any more is because
they were made by American Level when it was part of M-D.  M-D sold American
Level to Empire, and Empire seems to have dropped them from their line.  I
assume that ATS has some older stock on hand - unless my order is rejected
when they try to fill it tomorrow.  This might be the last chance to get
them.

Thanks again!
Karl

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Jan 14 08:39:35 2013
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:39:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed
In-Reply-To: <000c01cdf1a0$71c1cc80$55456580$@ameritech.net>
References: <000101cdf055$e24a77f0$a6df67d0$@ameritech.net>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20130111223047.00d1b0a8@mail.avvanta.com>
	<000c01cdf1a0$71c1cc80$55456580$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <004501cdf26d$5b6dec20$1249c460$@ameritech.net>

Nope - ATS is out of stock and they're no longer available.  Maybe there's
some old inventory somewhere, but it doesn't look good.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Vacek
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Smart Level advice needed

I hadn't looked at ATS.  I ordered the 24" and 48" levels (extender rails)
from them, and the module, magnetic bracket, and protective case from Amazon
(better price).

I suspect that M-D doesn't offer the "extender rails" any more is because
they were made by American Level when it was part of M-D.  M-D sold American
Level to Empire, and Empire seems to have dropped them from their line.  I
assume that ATS has some older stock on hand - unless my order is rejected
when they try to fill it tomorrow.  This might be the last chance to get
them.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 10:46:00 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:46:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
Message-ID: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com>

I just got a new power supply for my Dell laptop. They come with this 
ingenious rubber strap to wrap the power cord to the transformer. The 
whole thing was very--very--well bubble wrapped and taped, and in the 
course of cutting through the wrap and tape, I cut through the rubber strap.

It's been quite the few months.

Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a 
fair amount of tension when it's used.

Thanks.

Scott

From jniolon at att.net  Wed Jan 16 10:58:17 2013
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:58:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CF48E98892F461E93963EAF82990CA9@john5043a2d406>

no ideas of a off the shelf product...   if you had some original 
super-glue.... but they've ruined that product.... too many dummies glued 
their fingers together.  if you know someone who can make o-rings from a 
kit...   I think the o-ring adhesive is better than the original super-glue. 
just a thought....

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott" <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:46 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...


>I just got a new power supply for my Dell laptop. They come with this 
>ingenious rubber strap to wrap the power cord to the transformer. The whole 
>thing was very--very--well bubble wrapped and taped, and in the course of 
>cutting through the wrap and tape, I cut through the rubber strap.
>
> It's been quite the few months.
>
> Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a 
> fair amount of tension when it's used.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From lee at automate-it.com  Wed Jan 16 12:23:56 2013
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:23:56 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
In-Reply-To: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com>
References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8bef14b321e3746bb1f1bfe3c1548eb4.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

I've done the same. Try these:

 http://goo.gl/rZm8j - on ebay for 99 cents
 http://goo.gl/eSyo6 - another one for $3.95

Just do a Google search for "dell power rubber strap" and you'll see a bunch
of them.

> I just got a new power supply for my Dell laptop. They come with this
> ingenious rubber strap to wrap the power cord to the transformer. The
> whole thing was very--very--well bubble wrapped and taped, and in the
> course of cutting through the wrap and tape, I cut through the rubber strap.
>
> It's been quite the few months.
>
> Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a
> fair amount of tension when it's used.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott

From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 12:35:10 2013
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:35:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
In-Reply-To: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com>
References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COJmcesU2K8bctUxs=rLd0SOiY1kxTmoBrwTYizTVc4EQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a fair
> amount of tension when it's used.

I've found those Velcro cord straps useful for all sorts of
cord-restraining jobs around the shop, including laptops in the
pre-Dell Strap era...these links might work:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_49845-388-90438_0__?productId=1090877

http://www.lowes.com/pd_46232-388-90340_0__?productId=1087893

The first one has an arrangement whereby the strap stays attached to
the cord and can't be lost.  There are others that are longer, for
strapping the cord to the power brick.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jan 16 12:48:22 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:48:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
Message-ID: <COL002-W1048A23F3C46AD557E1B9A5CC2C0@phx.gbl>

My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous:
access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor.  It is a small
house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end
and the bathroom in the middle.  The door is hinged on the bathroom side, so
that the bathroom is blocked when it is up.  I hope that description is clear.
I can try to do a better job if not.

Heres the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement.  Under any
circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the door
is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario
that most frightens me.  My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to throw
a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up.  I wake up while she is down
there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2 by 4
hole in the floor.  (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a
renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.)

It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition the
steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout.  That is
actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but cant do right
now.  The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we
rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the
market soon.  The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door and
make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door.
However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea.  I will be there in a few
weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem.

As always, thanks!

Jim

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 13:12:27 2013
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:12:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W1048A23F3C46AD557E1B9A5CC2C0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W1048A23F3C46AD557E1B9A5CC2C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAOEriimDdx9S9q+Dem54KJvYfbK1ArwJGc-zOjEdEjVert=c5Q@mail.gmail.com>

You can block the hallway when the door is open (think those retractable
belts they use for queues at the movie theater).  Google "Wall mounted belt
barrier."  When you are going to open the door, you pull one of those
across each end of the hallway to warn people that it is up.  Of course,
that only works if it's used.

Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door.  Then
the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it.  However,
I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely
inconvenient) to use.  In the end, you'd probably install a catch chain to
hold it open and then there's not much point to the closer...

I think that if you're worried about being sued, the best bet is to lock
that door and have renters go outside.  When you use the place, a piece of
rope across each end of the hall should be warning enough if you can trust
your family to use it.

Good Luck,

-Paul


On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous:
> access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor.  It is a small
> house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end
> and the bathroom in the middle.  The door is hinged on the bathroom side,
> so
> that the bathroom is blocked when it is up.  I hope that description is
> clear.
> I can try to do a better job if not.
>
> Here s the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement.  Under any
> circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the
> door
> is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario
> that most frightens me.  My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to
> throw
> a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up.  I wake up while she is
> down
> there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2  by 4
> hole in the floor.  (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a
> renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.)
>
> It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition
> the
> steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout.  That is
> actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but can t do
> right
> now.  The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we
> rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the
> market soon.  The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door
> and
> make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door.
> However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea.  I will be there in a
> few
> weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem.
>
> As always, thanks!
>
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky at gmail.com

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 13:24:42 2013
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:24:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W1048A23F3C46AD557E1B9A5CC2C0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W1048A23F3C46AD557E1B9A5CC2C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YAiU8N2Ou=g_vyEpuJ-PJ3npch0f_HR6a-7YYV_fmZZBg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm envisioning a switch (like for a security system) that will tell
you when the door is open, hooked up to a big red flashing light.
Could be a simple tilt switch (like on an old pinball machine).  Both
the switch and the light could be mounted to the bottom of the door so
they would be out of the way.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous:
> access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor.  It is a small
> house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end
> and the bathroom in the middle.  The door is hinged on the bathroom side, so
> that the bathroom is blocked when it is up.  I hope that description is clear.
> I can try to do a better job if not.
>
> Here s the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement.  Under any
> circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the door
> is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario
> that most frightens me.  My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to throw
> a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up.  I wake up while she is down
> there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2  by 4
> hole in the floor.  (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a
> renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.)
>
> It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition the
> steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout.  That is
> actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but can t do right
> now.  The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we
> rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the
> market soon.  The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door and
> make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door.
> However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea.  I will be there in a few
> weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem.
>
> As always, thanks!
>
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Wed Jan 16 13:26:27 2013
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:26:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W1048A23F3C46AD557E1B9A5CC2C0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL002-W1048A23F3C46AD557E1B9A5CC2C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRVPtDj7sOJ9vDe1pmkNeU3pPunozj-=9T8n3G_BkN65qg@mail.gmail.com>

It sounds like you need some sort of interlock, such that someone cannot
use the trap door unless something is blocking people from falling into
it.  One way to do it would be to put a second trap door or metal framed
barrier beneath the trap door such that after opening the trap door toward
the bathroom you have to then lift the send door that blocks the hallway.
I suppose you could connect the door doors with a cable or track system,
but I think that would be more trouble than it is worth.  Padlocking the
trap and covering it with a rug for renters is probably what a lawyer would
recommend -- and what I would probably do when I'm not there.

- Ian

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> My new vacation/rental property has one feature that makes me very nervous:
> access to the basement is through a trap door in the floor.  It is a small
> house and the trap door sits in a hallway with the two bedrooms on each end
> and the bathroom in the middle.  The door is hinged on the bathroom side,
> so
> that the bathroom is blocked when it is up.  I hope that description is
> clear.
> I can try to do a better job if not.
>
> Here s the problem: the washer and dryer are in the basement.  Under any
> circumstances, it is easy to imagine someone falling in the hole when the
> door
> is open (I have come somewhat close once already), but here is the scenario
> that most frightens me.  My wife wakes up in the morning and decides to
> throw
> a load into the laundry before everyone wakes up.  I wake up while she is
> down
> there and groggily walk towards the bathroom and straight into the 2  by 4
> hole in the floor.  (Actually, my greater fear is that this happens to a
> renter, who then sues me for every penny I have.)
>
> It is a very small (780 sq ft) cottage and there is no way to reposition
> the
> steps without adding on to the house and changing the layout.  That is
> actually something we plan on doing in a couple of years, but can t do
> right
> now.  The financial model that allows us to own this place assumes that we
> rent it out for the summer season each year, and we need to get it on the
> market soon.  The only option I have come up with is to padlock the door
> and
> make the renters go outside and enter the basement through the garage door.
> However, I am hoping someone here has a better idea.  I will be there in a
> few
> weeks and would love to find a simple solution to the problem.
>
> As always, thanks!
>
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 16 14:31:08 2013
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:31:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YAiU8N2Ou=g_vyEpuJ-PJ3npch0f_HR6a-7YYV_fmZZBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130116213109.OD9IW.3605.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

---- John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote: 
> I'm envisioning a switch (like for a security system) that will tell
> you when the door is open, hooked up to a big red flashing light.

Me too, except a big light shining up out of the hole should be sufficient.  I wouldn't want to have to have a flashing red light all the time that anyone is in the basement doing laundry.

I didn't understand from your description if the hole is accessible from the side opposite the trap door or not.  If so, another possibility might be a cable or similar, fastened to the door so it forms a barrier in the bedroom directions when the door is open.

Yet another approach might be to ring the opening with light beams, and sound an alarm when anyone walks too close to the open hole.  I can see problems with that, but it should help.  Maybe a recording that plays "Danger, Danger, Will Robinson" <g>

I suppose there is no chance that the laundry could be moved somewhere else?  They make washer/dryer combos now that will fit in a closet and even leave room for clothes or shelves above it.
Eg,
http://goo.gl/XkD28

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 16 14:41:14 2013
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:41:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <CAOEriimDdx9S9q+Dem54KJvYfbK1ArwJGc-zOjEdEjVert=c5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

---- Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote: 
> Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door.  Then
> the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it.  However,
> I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely
> inconvenient) to use.  

Hmm, what about a remote controlled automatic opener/closer, like one sometimes see on hospital doors?  Push a big button (positioned so you can bump it with an elbow if your hands are full) and the door opens long enough to get through it, then closes.  You could have switches on both sides, making it more practical to close the door while in the basement.  Probably combined with some indication from above that someone is down there, so you know not to block the door.

Randall

From jniolon at att.net  Wed Jan 16 16:05:33 2013
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:05:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
Message-ID: <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>

boy, there are some elaborate ideas here... might be cheaper to hire a small 
imported boy with a yellow caution flag to watch the hole...

I'm liking something like a 'slam latch' like on truck under body tool 
boxes... it's flush..(covers with a rug with no trip hazard)... .it locks 
and the barrier tape/rope/chain that someone mentioned before... pull it 
across the hall when the door is open... you could also use it for a queue 
line at the bathroom door if necessary !

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: "shop talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe


> ---- Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door.  Then
>> the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it. 
>> However,
>> I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and extremely
>> inconvenient) to use.
>
> Hmm, what about a remote controlled automatic opener/closer, like one 
> sometimes see on hospital doors?  Push a big button (positioned so you can 
> bump it with an elbow if your hands are full) and the door opens long 
> enough to get through it, then closes.  You could have switches on both 
> sides, making it more practical to close the door while in the basement. 
> Probably combined with some indication from above that someone is down 
> there, so you know not to block the door.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 17 08:43:30 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:43:30 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
In-Reply-To: <5CF48E98892F461E93963EAF82990CA9@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <EF.38.25866.A1C18F05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> if you know someone 
> who can make o-rings from a 
> kit...   I think the o-ring adhesive is better than the 
> original super-glue. 

I have the O-ring kit and the glue that came with it.  It works, but the
glued joint is never quite as strong as the original O-ring, in my
experience.  Maybe if you had some sort of press that could apply pressure
on the joint while the glue hardened ...

-- Randall 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Jan 17 09:27:08 2013
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:27:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
In-Reply-To: <EF.38.25866.A1C18F05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <EF.38.25866.A1C18F05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <50F8265C.6080000@xxiii.com>

> I have the O-ring kit and the glue that came with it.  It works, but the
> glued joint is never quite as strong as the original O-ring, in my
> experience.  Maybe if you had some sort of press that could apply pressure

Replacements are pretty easy to find, just google:
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=dell+notebook+power+strap

Hey! 2nd from the top. Is that the one you're looking for?
http://www.parts-people.com/index.php?action=item&id=5551
$3.99 + $2.90 S&H. Not worth trying to fix to me.

Searching Ebay for: dell (power,cord) strap
Gets six hits. Hey! a lot of 50 for $46, free shipping!

If you haven't tried it before, you'll be amazed at some of the obscure 
parts you can find on Ebay, both new, NOS, and used part-outs. My old 
faithful microwave Panasonic oven of nearly 20 years died. Sold the 
glass tray on Ebay for $15, and tore the rest to pieces in about 10 
minutes and had $1.50 of bare steel for the next scrap yard run.

-w

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 09:47:50 2013
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:47:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
In-Reply-To: <50F8265C.6080000@xxiii.com>
References: <EF.38.25866.A1C18F05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
	<50F8265C.6080000@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6fr563jBmBaM2iadQ7ztDXXq4ShZkdGivzSAHOzeVCyLA@mail.gmail.com>

Check with <discountelectronics.com> in the Austin area. They just might
have the strap by itself. They're Dell's "Outlet" operation and their C/S
is pretty good. I bought an extra power brick for my Dell 17 laptop from
them for less than half the Dell retail price.

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> I have the O-ring kit and the glue that came with it.  It works, but the
>> glued joint is never quite as strong as the original O-ring, in my
>> experience.  Maybe if you had some sort of press that could apply pressure
>>
>
> Replacements are pretty easy to find, just google:
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=dell+**notebook+power+strap<http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=dell+notebook+power+strap>
>
> Hey! 2nd from the top. Is that the one you're looking for?
> http://www.parts-people.com/**index.php?action=item&id=5551<http://www.parts-people.com/index.php?action=item&id=5551>
> $3.99 + $2.90 S&H. Not worth trying to fix to me.
>
> Searching Ebay for: dell (power,cord) strap
> Gets six hits. Hey! a lot of 50 for $46, free shipping!
>
> If you haven't tried it before, you'll be amazed at some of the obscure
> parts you can find on Ebay, both new, NOS, and used part-outs. My old
> faithful microwave Panasonic oven of nearly 20 years died. Sold the glass
> tray on Ebay for $15, and tore the rest to pieces in about 10 minutes and
> had $1.50 of bare steel for the next scrap yard run.
>
> -w
>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com>

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Jan 17 20:11:20 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:11:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  Some interesting approaches, but none that will probably keep
the lawyers at bay.  (Although the "imported boy" idea might actually work, it
could also bring a different kind of lawyer my way.)  Blocking the halls would
stop someone falling in from the bedrooms, but not an absent-minded person
(like yours truly) from taking a dive on the way to the bathroom from the
living room.

The ideal would be some kind of strut that would 1) make the door easier to
open and 2) cause it to automatically close a few seconds after being opened.
I doubt anything like that exists.  I can envision an elaborate system where
three barriers would 'unfold' when the door was opened, one of which could
swing away to allow entry to the steps.  However, this would be well beyond my
ability to design and execute, so I suspect I will be getting the padlock
out.

But, please feel free to drop me a line if any of you wake up in the middle of
the night with a sudden flash of insight.  One never knows...

Thanks again,

Jim

> From: jniolon at att.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:05:33 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
>
> boy, there are some elaborate ideas here... might be cheaper to hire a small
> imported boy with a yellow caution flag to watch the hole...
>
> I'm liking something like a 'slam latch' like on truck under body tool
> boxes... it's flush..(covers with a rug with no trip hazard)... .it locks
> and the barrier tape/rope/chain that someone mentioned before... pull it
> across the hall when the door is open... you could also use it for a queue
> line at the bathroom door if necessary !
>
> john
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Cc: "shop talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
>
>
> > ---- Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Another option would be to install an automatic closer on the door.
Then
> >> the door wouldn't be open when somebody wasn't there holding it.
> >> However,
> >> I think that this would probably make the door treacherous (and
extremely
> >> inconvenient) to use.
> >
> > Hmm, what about a remote controlled automatic opener/closer, like one
> > sometimes see on hospital doors?  Push a big button (positioned so you can
> > bump it with an elbow if your hands are full) and the door opens long
> > enough to get through it, then closes.  You could have switches on both
> > sides, making it more practical to close the door while in the basement.
> > Probably combined with some indication from above that someone is down
> > there, so you know not to block the door.
> >
> > Randall
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Jan 17 20:40:59 2013
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:40:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
	<COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>

I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's 
Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could move 
bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the hallways 
around the opening.

Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual 
learners like photos...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stone"


> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 'unfold' 
> when the door was opened, 

From nick at landform.co.uk  Fri Jan 18 03:30:38 2013
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:30:38 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
	<COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
	<8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk>

Eric J Russell wrote:
> I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's 
> Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could 
> move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the 
> hallways around the opening.
>

For starters, how about this?

http://www.cellaraccess.co.uk/Grille%20Door.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQLGCmhllo

Would keep children entertained for hours. Won't be cheap, but still 
cheaper than lawyer's bills...

Nick Brearley

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 09:35:58 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:35:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
	<COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
	<8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com>

All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being 
a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a 
trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the 
house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. 
Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the 
basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor.

I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime 
skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they 
will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a 
toilet. After that, anything seems possible.

For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a 
railroad crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower 
the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, 
and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd 
certainly make you aware of their presence before you fell into a hole 
in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You could even tie them 
into the operation of the trapdoor itself.

But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot 
bump-out and a staircase on an exterior wall.

Scott

On 1/17/2013 7:40 PM, Eric J Russell wrote:
> I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's 
> Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could 
> move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the 
> hallways around the opening.
>
> Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual 
> learners like photos...
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone"
>
>
>> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 
>> 'unfold' when the door was opened, 

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Jan 18 06:42:34 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:42:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
	<COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
	<8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>,
	<50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <COL002-W22123150E6E114D8DBBBE9CC120@phx.gbl>

Thanks Nick.  That is exactly the kind of thing I had been hoping to 
find.  I
actually found that company when I was surfing to see if I 
could find an
answer before polling this group, but obviously didn't spend enough time on
their 
site.  Of course, shipping something like that to the States is
probably
 out of the question, but I will write the company to see if they
know 
of a closer source.

As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to.  I don't have
one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks.

Cheers,

Jim

> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:30:38 +0000
> From: nick at landform.co.uk
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> CC: jandkstone99 at msn.com
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
>
> Eric J Russell wrote:
> > I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's
> > Monticello. When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could
> > move bars - like the trafficators on an olde English car - into the
> > hallways around the opening.
> >
>
> For starters, how about this?
>
> http://www.cellaraccess.co.uk/Grille%20Door.html
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQLGCmhllo
>
> Would keep children entertained for hours. Won't be cheap, but still
> cheaper than lawyer's bills...
>
> Nick Brearley

From jniolon at att.net  Fri Jan 18 07:06:37 2013
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:06:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>,
	<50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk>
	<COL002-W22123150E6E114D8DBBBE9CC120@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B9D008F4D5044DCBAB3840219EDC3B53@john5043a2d406>

ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ???  or are 
posting to another site and linking to it ???

john
>
> As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to.  I don't 
> have
> one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks.
>
> Cheers,
>
> >> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Jan 18 07:16:20 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:16:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???
Message-ID: <6ee0fcd7.363ef5.13c4e0473d6.Webtop.47@charter.net>

Nothing has changed....
You have to put the pic on some sort of photo sharing site and share 
that link with the list.


On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 8:06 AM, John Niolon wrote:

> ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ??? 
> or are posting to another site and linking to it ???
>
> john
>>
>> As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to.  I 
>> don't have
>> one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>>> Nick Brearley
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 18 07:19:58 2013
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???
In-Reply-To: <B9D008F4D5044DCBAB3840219EDC3B53@john5043a2d406>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>,
	<50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk>
	<COL002-W22123150E6E114D8DBBBE9CC120@phx.gbl>
	<B9D008F4D5044DCBAB3840219EDC3B53@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <1358518798.50527.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Attached photo... (not of a trap door).  :-)
 best,


doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
'07 Aprilia SXV 550



----- Original Message ----
From: John Niolon <jniolon at att.net>
To: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:05:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???

ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ???  or are 
posting to another site and linking to it ???

john
> 
> As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to.  I don't have
> one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> >> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at pacbell.net

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Fri Jan 18 07:20:29 2013
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:20:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
	<COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
	<8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>
	<50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <054401cdf586$f7fabd40$e7f037c0$@usermail.com>

I'll second this opinion.  I'm also a landlord, and as an ER doc, I've heard
thousands of stories of "errors in judgment" .  My wife and daughter are
both attorneys.  

PM

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:36 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe

All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being a
landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a
trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the
house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. 
Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the basement
entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor.

I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime
skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they will
find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a toilet.
After that, anything seems possible.

For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a railroad
crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower the barriers on
either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, and if they locked
into a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd certainly make you aware of
their presence before you fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how
sleepy you were. You could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor
itself.

But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot bump-out
and a staircase on an exterior wall.

Scott

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 18 07:28:27 2013
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:28:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???
In-Reply-To: <1358518798.50527.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>,
	<50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk>
	<COL002-W22123150E6E114D8DBBBE9CC120@phx.gbl>
	<B9D008F4D5044DCBAB3840219EDC3B53@john5043a2d406>
	<1358518798.50527.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1358519307.31231.YahooMailRC@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

The test would seem to indicate that it still strips attachments...
 best,


doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
'07 Aprilia SXV 550



----- Original Message ----
From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
To: John Niolon <jniolon at att.net>; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:21:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???

Attached photo... (not of a trap door).  :-)
best,


doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
'07 Aprilia SXV 550



----- Original Message ----
From: John Niolon <jniolon at att.net>
To: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 6:05:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???

ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ???  or are 
posting to another site and linking to it ???

john
> 
> As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to.  I don't have
> one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> >> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
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_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jan 18 08:08:46 2013
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:08:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
	<COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
	<8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>
	<50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1358521726.45111.YahooMailRC@web182203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Someone would then figure out how to 'trip' over the barriers.  

Randy




________________________________
From: Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Fri, January 18, 2013 7:36:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe

All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after being a 
landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house with a trapdoor 
in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even outside the house, if I had 
to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the 
trapdoor shut and just eliminate access to the basement entirely before I let a 
tenant use a trapdoor.

I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover lifetime skilled 
nursing care for someone falling through that thing. And they will find a way to 
do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant bottle down a toilet. After that, 
anything seems possible.

For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a railroad 
crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower the barriers on 
either side of it. If they were just above waist-height, and if they locked into 
a latch on both sides of the hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their 
presence before you fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you 
were. You could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself.

But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot bump-out and 
a staircase on an exterior wall.

Scott

On 1/17/2013 7:40 PM, Eric J Russell wrote:
> I'm imagining something like the mechanisms at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. 
>When the doors are opened a hidden pulley system could move bars - like the 
>trafficators on an olde English car - into the hallways around the opening.
> 
> Can you upload a photo of the floor doors for us to peruse? Us visual learners 
>like photos...
> 
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone"
> 
> 
>> I can envision an elaborate system where three barriers would 'unfold' when the 
>>door was opened, 
>>
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
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From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 18 09:35:42 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:35:42 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???
In-Reply-To: <1358519307.31231.YahooMailRC@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8E.AA.25866.4D979F05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> The test would seem to indicate that it still strips attachments...

Indeed, to post photos you still have to put them somewhere else and include
a link
(also not a trap door, but something I'd like to have in my shop <g>)
http://goo.gl/HksFp

-- Randall 

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Jan 18 09:47:12 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:47:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???
In-Reply-To: <B9D008F4D5044DCBAB3840219EDC3B53@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <1593722786.35866.1358527632023.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Post it somewhere else.  I like flickr.com

flickr is free for light users.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Niolon" <jniolon at att.net>
> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 8:06:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe??? photo's ???
> ok, I'm the dummy now.... never knew we could post a photo here ??? or
> are
> posting to another site and linking to it ???
> 
> john
> >
> > As for Eric's suggestion to post a photo, I will be happy to. I
> > don't
> > have
> > one but will do that when I am at the place in a couple of weeks.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > >> Nick Brearley
> > _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Jan 18 13:15:34 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:15:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe???  photo's ???
In-Reply-To: <1358519307.31231.YahooMailRC@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406><COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl><8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>,
	<50F9244E.8010204@landform.co.uk>
	<COL002-W22123150E6E114D8DBBBE9CC120@phx.gbl>
	<B9D008F4D5044DCBAB3840219EDC3B53@john5043a2d406>
	<1358518798.50527.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<1358519307.31231.YahooMailRC@web184703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50F9AD66.6050105@bradakis.com>

Oddly enough I just mentioned on the Triumph list that I should get the
forums back on the air.  One CAN easily post pictures there.  So maybe
this weekend that link down below will actually become useful.

mjb.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sat Jan 19 00:54:15 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:54:15 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <1358521726.45111.YahooMailRC@web182203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <20130116214114.MDOPE.3654.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>,
	<24726F4C8FC944F88FFC411B6DCFD424@john5043a2d406>
	<COL002-W3174E5184405D3A7DAD6A3CC120@phx.gbl>
	<8EB097D2A8624F2FA9879BDF9665BC0A@EricJRussellPC>
	<50F979EE.5090107@gmail.com>
	<1358521726.45111.YahooMailRC@web182203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50FA5127.8010801@gmail.com>

I was thinking for just him and his wife. I'm reasonably certain the 
barrier would stop me, and probably my wife too. And (more importantly) 
I know I won't sue myself.

On the other hand, it's only a matter of time before the one of you 
using the trap door forgets to use the barriers, or doesn't use them 
because you'll "just be down there for a second". That will be the time 
the other of you gets up to get the glass of water.

I'd keep the trapdoor if it was just me in the house. Or my and my wife, 
because I know she's not getting up to do laundry at 2:00 a.m. If your 
wife might, I'd loose the trapdoor.

And there is just no way on earth I'd ever let a tenant rent a house 
with a trap door in the floor. That sounds to me like an excellent way 
to see the worst of human nature. The most interesting aspect of that 
rental would be: can an attorney write a clause in the rental agreement 
that indemnifies you from liability related to the trapdoor that could 
actually withstand litigation, and then, could your bank account 
withstand such litigation, even assuming successful resolution? That's a 
question I'll never want to find out for myself, personally.

In all seriousness, o.p., if you go through it, get a liability coverage 
of at least $10 million. That should be enough to run off the claimants 
when the company tenders limits on day one of the issue. I wonder what 
that policy would cost. Put the cottage in a separate S-Corp or L.L.C. 
(or Trust, or whatever). Find a good attorney and discuss this with 
them. Probably want to protect your other house too.

(Really $10 million. Lifetime skilled nursing care or wrongful death is 
probably more than that, but 33% of eight figures tends to motivate a 
plaintiff's attorney in most small towns, I'd bet.)

Sheesh...when did I get so cynical?

On 1/18/2013 7:08 AM, Rand E wrote:
> Someone would then figure out how to 'trip' over the barriers.
>
> Randy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
> *To:* shop-talk at autox.team.net
> *Sent:* Fri, January 18, 2013 7:36:16 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
>
> All the engineering solutions are pretty cool sounding, but after 
> being a landlord myself, there's just no way I'd ever rent out a house 
> with a trapdoor in it, no matter what. I'd build a staircase--even 
> outside the house, if I had to--before I let tenants use a trapdoor in 
> a hallway. Shoot, I'd nail the trapdoor shut and just eliminate access 
> to the basement entirely before I let a tenant use a trapdoor.
>
> I don't think you could buy enough liability coverage to cover 
> lifetime skilled nursing care for someone falling through that thing. 
> And they will find a way to do it. I had a tenant flush a deodorant 
> bottle down a toilet. After that, anything seems possible.
>
> For just you guys, you could install gates in the hallway--like a 
> railroad crossing barrier. When someone uses the trapdoor, they lower 
> the barriers on either side of it. If they were just above 
> waist-height, and if they locked into a latch on both sides of the 
> hallway they'd certainly make you aware of their presence before you 
> fell into a hole in the floor, no matter how sleepy you were. You 
> could even tie them into the operation of the trapdoor itself.
>
> But all that sounds to me like as much work as putting a three-foot 
> bump-out and a staircase on an exterior wall.
>
> Scott

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jan 19 08:33:12 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:33:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <50FA5127.8010801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFA1C3166F.83C906AE-ON85257AF8.00554338-85257AF8.0056A325@mail.megageek.com>

If you want to send me the photos and I can post them to my webserver for 
free, let me know.

Thanks.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From tputland at charter.net  Sat Jan 19 09:54:26 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:54:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct
Message-ID: <badecdf.24630c.13c53bb91db.Webtop.49@charter.net>

Hi all.

We have a craftsman home, approx 110 years old. When HVAC was added at
some point, all they did was use the wall stud pockets (for lack of a
better term) as duct work. At one point an interior, non-load bearing
wall was taken down to make one big living room. The wall contained the
bductingb for what is now the upstairs bathroom. When the wall was
pulled down, they filled in the wall and ceiling gaps with planks of oak
in an attempt to match the rest of the wood work. (an epic eye sore
fail!!)

What I want to do is use the existing feed for this bathroom from the
basement and run 3b duct up the wall and across the ceiling where wall
used to be and into the existing vent in the bathroom, then patch with
either plaster or drywall (this latter most likely).

The one spot that might make this a no go is pictured in the link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/82293958 at N06/8394587221/in/photostream

Part of the marked areas is the main support beam. However, the one
marked is a seam so I assume not part of the main support. But above
that is support beam. It does not look to me that I would have to remove
much of the support beam to make room for the aluminum duct and can even
flatten the duct to require less room. I could add layers of OSB or
plywood to reinforce the area I cut into if necessarybfor this
reinforcement process Ibd appreciate guidance as well.

Right now we have (obviously) no air to the upstairs bathroom so
anything I can get would be an improvement.

Love this list!
Thanks!!
tim

From tputland at charter.net  Sat Jan 19 10:16:21 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:16:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct
Message-ID: <50620720.2465eb.13c53cfa0a1.Webtop.49@charter.net>

Hey Tony. Yea, I understand what you are talking about. I did think of 
doing some sort of small bumpout (I forget the actual term) as a last 
resort. I could then install crown molding to hide it if i could get the 
wife to go for it.
thanks!


On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Tony Vaccaro wrote:

> this wont go to the list as I am using an email address not associated 
> with the list.
>
> I would just have the duct go up along side the beam, building out the 
> wall. What difference does it make if you have a triangular area there 
> to accommodate the duct.  I would look like part of the wall and not 
> be noticed.
>
> Dont know if you get what I mean. but best that I can describe it.
>
>
>
> Anthony R Vaccaro
>
> American Micro Inc
>
> 716-689-9100 (Store)
>
> 716-861-1412 (Cell)
>
> ________________________________________
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 
> [shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] on behalf of Tim 
> [tputland at charter.net]
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 11:54 AM
> To: Shop Talk
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct
>
> Hi all.
>
> We have a craftsman home, approx 110 years old. When HVAC was added at
> some point, all they did was use the wall stud pockets (for lack of a
> better term) as duct work. At one point an interior, non-load bearing
> wall was taken down to make one big living room. The wall contained 
> the
> b?ductingb? for what is now the upstairs bathroom. When the wall was
> pulled down, they filled in the wall and ceiling gaps with planks of 
> oak
> in an attempt to match the rest of the wood work. (an epic eye sore
> fail!!)
>
> What I want to do is use the existing feed for this bathroom from the
> basement and run 3b? duct up the wall and across the ceiling where 
> wall
> used to be and into the existing vent in the bathroom, then patch with
> either plaster or drywall (this latter most likely).
>
> The one spot that might make this a no go is pictured in the link:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/82293958 at N06/8394587221/in/photostream
>
> Part of the marked areas is the main support beam. However, the one
> marked is a seam so I assume not part of the main support. But above
> that is support beam. It does not look to me that I would have to 
> remove
> much of the support beam to make room for the aluminum duct and can 
> even
> flatten the duct to require less room. I could add layers of OSB or
> plywood to reinforce the area I cut into if necessaryb?for this
> reinforcement process Ib?d appreciate guidance as well.
>
> Right now we have (obviously) no air to the upstairs bathroom so
> anything I can get would be an improvement.
>
> Love this list!
> Thanks!!
> tim
> _______________________________________________

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 19 10:42:33 2013
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:42:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct
In-Reply-To: <badecdf.24630c.13c53bb91db.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <badecdf.24630c.13c53bb91db.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50FADB09.6010201@earthlink.net>

Tim - I'd be hesitant to cut the board you marked as a seam or any 
structure at all.  Load standards today are not the same as when the 
house was built and lumber is not as strong.  I did a cantilever balcony 
replacement last summer and the structural engineer I had do the plans 
for me said the 2x8 joists from when my house was built in 1957 are 
twice as strong as a current 2x8.  I ended up having to use engineered 
joists to meet my space restrictions.  My point here is that I wouldn't 
mess with any structure without more of an analysis by someone that can 
actually examine your situation.

Have you considered bumping it down like an exposed beam?  You could 
make it from 1x trim to match the rest of the wood trim.

Another option is to use two 45 degree turns and then frame that 
exposure as a gusset or brace.  You could add another one on the other 
side of the room to match.

Good luck.

Brian

On 1/19/2013 8:54 AM, Tim wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> We have a craftsman home, approx 110 years old. When HVAC was added at
> some point, all they did was use the wall stud pockets (for lack of a
> better term) as duct work. At one point an interior, non-load bearing
> wall was taken down to make one big living room. The wall contained the
> b
ductingb
 for what is now the upstairs bathroom. When the wall was
> pulled down, they filled in the wall and ceiling gaps with planks of oak
> in an attempt to match the rest of the wood work. (an epic eye sore
> fail!!)
>
> What I want to do is use the existing feed for this bathroom from the
> basement and run 3b
 duct up the wall and across the ceiling where wall
> used to be and into the existing vent in the bathroom, then patch with
> either plaster or drywall (this latter most likely).
>
> The one spot that might make this a no go is pictured in the link:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/82293958 at N06/8394587221/in/photostream
>
> Part of the marked areas is the main support beam. However, the one
> marked is a seam so I assume not part of the main support. But above
> that is support beam. It does not look to me that I would have to remove
> much of the support beam to make room for the aluminum duct and can even
> flatten the duct to require less room. I could add layers of OSB or
> plywood to reinforce the area I cut into if necessarybfor this
> reinforcement process Ibd appreciate guidance as well.
>
> Right now we have (obviously) no air to the upstairs bathroom so
> anything I can get would be an improvement.
>
> Love this list!
> Thanks!!
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Jan 19 11:07:09 2013
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:07:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a duct
In-Reply-To: <50620720.2465eb.13c53cfa0a1.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <50620720.2465eb.13c53cfa0a1.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50FAE0CD.1010803@bradakis.com>

>> this wont go to the list as I am using an email address not 
>> associated with the list.

One can subscribe additional addresses to a list, and set the delivery 
option to no mail.
That way you only get messages sent to one account, but you can post 
from several.

mjb.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Jan 19 16:22:00 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:22:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <OFA1C3166F.83C906AE-ON85257AF8.00554338-85257AF8.0056A325@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFA1C3166F.83C906AE-ON85257AF8.00554338-85257AF8.0056A325@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <COL401-EAS1491BC29B364236F0C82DD1CC110@phx.gbl>

Thanks Eric. I won't be able to take them until next week, but I can just put
them on one of the free sites, unless there is an advantage to using your
server.   Is there?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 19, 2013, at 9:45 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

> If you want to send me the photos and I can post them to my webserver for
> free, let me know.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sat Jan 19 17:15:33 2013
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 16:15:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Upstairs bath heat
Message-ID: <CBB6C211173646169C89B8EF457324F6@SusieandMarkPC>

Even if you can properly support the support where you cut it out (some
steel comes to mind) it would be a major sticking point if/when you go to
sell the house.  I would recommend either running the ductwork just to the
inside of the beam and then enclose it in some lovely (or at least not
hideous) fashion, find some other routing path for the ductwork, or some
other way to heat the bathroom.  Are you remodeling it?  Subfloor heat below
the tile is absolutely fantastic and fairly inexpensive, and you know whre
you will find the cats on cold mornings.


Mark Miller

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jan 19 17:14:58 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 19:14:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe
In-Reply-To: <COL401-EAS1491BC29B364236F0C82DD1CC110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <OF4D216D63.E53FC5BF-ON85257AF9.000127E0-85257AF9.00029221@mail.megageek.com>

The only real advantage is control.  On my server, you never lose rights 
of the pictures or have to worry about ads or targeted marketing.

I will not be offended if you use a free site, I was just putting the 
offer out there.  8>)

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> 
01/19/2013 18:10

To
"eric at megageek.com" <eric at megageek.com>
cc
"shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net" <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Making a trap door safe






Thanks Eric. I won't be able to take them until next week, but I can just 
put them on one of the free sites, unless there is an advantage to using 
your server.   Is there?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 19, 2013, at 9:45 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

> If you want to send me the photos and I can post them to my webserver 
for 
> free, let me know.
> 
> Thanks.

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sun Jan 20 17:32:01 2013
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:32:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] For my next trick...
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COJmcesU2K8bctUxs=rLd0SOiY1kxTmoBrwTYizTVc4EQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50F6E758.6060703@gmail.com>
	<CAO8Q7COJmcesU2K8bctUxs=rLd0SOiY1kxTmoBrwTYizTVc4EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130121003201.GA62802@sackheads.org>

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 02:35:10PM -0500, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Is there any way to glue or 'weld' the strap back together? It takes a fair
> > amount of tension when it's used.
> 
> I've found those Velcro cord straps useful for all sorts of
> cord-restraining jobs around the shop, including laptops in the
> pre-Dell Strap era...these links might work:

I second the Velcro strap idea.  For power tool cords, I usually use 
something like these since they can't get lost:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10520&cs_id=1052003&p_id=5816&seq=1&format=2

For just about everything else, I use double-sided 3/4" Velcro strapping.  The
Velcro product name is "One Wrap" and I've seen it for as little as $18 for 25yd
online.  But there are lots of clones of varying quality.  The version sold by
Monoprice is fuzzier and not as "grippy" but it's no less useful.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10520&cs_id=1052003&p_id=5830&seq=1&format=2

You'll be surprised how many uses you find for this stuff so you'll definitely
want to buy it by the roll.


JM

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan 22 14:45:53 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:45:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
Message-ID: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>

OK, for us Hurricane Sandy survivors, there is still alot of clean up 
left.   I have lots of friends that have tree stumps that need to be 
removed.  Having a stump grinder, this should be easy. BUT most of these 
are overturned trees, rendering the stump grinder useless.

So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, but my 
question is, what should I use to cut the roots?  Many of these are huge. 
I do not dare take a chainsaw blade to a dirty root.  I can use an axe, 
but there are lots of them and most a very large.

So, is there a technique for this?  Better yet, is there a new tool I can 
buy?  8>)

I'm interested in any words of wisdom on these process.  I normally don't 
have to remove uprooted stumps.

Thanks!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 22 15:10:43 2013
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:10:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20130122170806.04cf8b50@cox.net>

At 04:45 PM 1/22/2013, you wrote:

 >....So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, 
but my question is, what should I
 >use to cut the roots?  Many of these are huge.  I do not dare take 
a chainsaw blade to a dirty
 >root.  I can use an axe, but there are lots of them and most a very large.

Eric,

When I had to have the sewer drain line replaced the plumber used a 
battery operated reciprocating (saw-s-all) saw to cut through tree roots.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From KVacek at Ameritech.net  Tue Jan 22 15:48:36 2013
From: KVacek at Ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:48:36 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20130122170806.04cf8b50@cox.net>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20130122170806.04cf8b50@cox.net>
Message-ID: <009201cdf8f2$9d8b0440$d8a10cc0$@Ameritech.net>

I've cut many huge roots in the ground with 12" coarse-tooth Sawzall blades.
They last amazingly long, even in our very sandy soil.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
>....So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, but my
question is, what should I  >use to cut the roots?  Many of these are huge.
I do not dare take a chainsaw blade to a dirty  >root.  I can use an axe,
but there are lots of them and most a very large.

From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 16:11:43 2013
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:11:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPnWEtE+OwsOmreB1rLSZAWJx_H05V4dnVVwm590oEeVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:45 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> but my
> question is, what should I use to cut the roots?


Another vote for the reciprocating saw.  If you have a lot of roots,
though, a 120V saw and a small generator like the Honda 1000 type may
be a better choice.  Otherwise, you may spend some time waiting to
recharge batteries.

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Tue Jan 22 16:44:56 2013
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (paul.mele at usermail.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:44:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CPnWEtE+OwsOmreB1rLSZAWJx_H05V4dnVVwm590oEeVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAO8Q7CPnWEtE+OwsOmreB1rLSZAWJx_H05V4dnVVwm590oEeVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52044.98.101.145.216.1358898296.squirrel@webmail.usermail.com>

ditto on the saw zall, and 120VAC vs batt models.

Hurricaine Fran survivor.


>
> Another vote for the reciprocating saw.  If you have a lot of roots,
> though, a 120V saw and a small generator like the Honda 1000 type may
> be a better choice.  Otherwise, you may spend some time waiting to
> recharge batteries.
> _______________________________________________

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 18:50:54 2013
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:50:54 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <52044.98.101.145.216.1358898296.squirrel@webmail.usermail.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAO8Q7CPnWEtE+OwsOmreB1rLSZAWJx_H05V4dnVVwm590oEeVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<52044.98.101.145.216.1358898296.squirrel@webmail.usermail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+7Nz3rGZvAsYTGtBJjyRpin5ko1Hb60dFVZ5eyqj6WKvN0zwQ@mail.gmail.com>

*I had a similar situation and the recip-saw sounds smart but I just used
my chain saw and bought it a new chain when I finished.*

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 22 19:59:15 2013
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:59:15 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net>

Eric - The reciprocating saw is probably the best recommendation, but I 
also second the recommendation of just trashing a blade in the chain 
saw.  In the end the time saved may be worth the cost of a blade.

I have a little pruning saw I now use for roots when fixing in ground 
sprinklers.  It hurt a little the first time, but then I bought a better 
saw that only does tree pruning.

If you are worried about trashing the saw itself, get a cheap (used?) 
electric saw and don't worry about it.  I have a Remington that was $40 
that is fair for occasional use near the house.

If you want an arm workout and can get around the roots, consider a rope 
saw like
http://www.harborfreight.com/long-reach-rope-chain-saw-97092.html (I 
know nothing about this one in particular)


To toss in something different, if you have a SDS drill, get a flat 
chisel like the one below and sharpen it with a grinder.  Put the drill 
in hammer mode only and carve away.

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-sds-masonry-flat-chisel-set-42651.html

I did this to a root cluster between my spa and a retaining wall.  I had 
been going at it with a hatchet, but broke the blade and wore out my 
arm.  It was too rocky for a reciprocating saw and several roots were 
twisted in a big clump, so it was tough to chop.  This will likely not 
be as fast as a saw, but could be fun for a few roots that might not be 
easy to get in other ways.

If you don't have the drill, watch for it on sale.
I got 
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-1-inch-sds-rotary-hammer-97743.html 
or an earlier version for $69 with sale and coupon a few years ago. 
These are much better than a regular hammer drill for bigger holes in 
concrete.  I've also played connect the dots to make 4" holes through 
retaining walls to run drain pipe.  It is a fun tool for a while.

If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and 
lift the bucket.  If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe 
or a dozer.  Probably best to rent one of these.

If I remember correctly, you had a fork lift.  Drive close and hook a 
chain to the base of one of the forks and you can probably get some good 
pulling action.

Brian


On 1/22/2013 1:45 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, for us Hurricane Sandy survivors, there is still alot of clean up
> left.   I have lots of friends that have tree stumps that need to be
> removed.  Having a stump grinder, this should be easy. BUT most of these
> are overturned trees, rendering the stump grinder useless.
>
> So, I have the ability to lift the stumps out of the ground, but my
> question is, what should I use to cut the roots?  Many of these are huge.
> I do not dare take a chainsaw blade to a dirty root.  I can use an axe,
> but there are lots of them and most a very large.
>
> So, is there a technique for this?  Better yet, is there a new tool I can
> buy?  8>)
>
> I'm interested in any words of wisdom on these process.  I normally don't
> have to remove uprooted stumps.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 20:04:31 2013
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:04:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <CA+7Nz3rGZvAsYTGtBJjyRpin5ko1Hb60dFVZ5eyqj6WKvN0zwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAO8Q7CPnWEtE+OwsOmreB1rLSZAWJx_H05V4dnVVwm590oEeVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<52044.98.101.145.216.1358898296.squirrel@webmail.usermail.com>
	<CA+7Nz3rGZvAsYTGtBJjyRpin5ko1Hb60dFVZ5eyqj6WKvN0zwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP8aJKoNria2sNHwtRQVgBvUSQPcsWtP5pM+b0qz4V6A-Q@mail.gmail.com>

If this is something you are going to do a lot of, then the reciprocating
saw may be the best option, since decent blades are very inexpensive. (I
like the DeWalt blades.)

I will say, though, that my first inclination echoes Tony Clark's
suggestion - use the chainsaw. I would use an older chain and not worry too
much about it. You can certainly also try to sharpen it if it gets too
dull, and toss it if it is beyond a sharpening. Chains aren't that
expensive, and you'd get through the roots much faster with a
not-fully-sharp chain than you will with a brand new 3TPI reciprocating
blade.

-Peter


On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark <eltonclark at gmail.com
> wrote:

> *I had a similar situation and the recip-saw sounds smart but I just used
> my chain saw and bought it a new chain when I finished.*
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 20:08:17 2013
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:08:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
	<50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP94TumeYueyYcCe_O1jE-wX-=FvpE1Do_cDejxNBPvCLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, and look at me making the junior-grade mistake - it didn't even occur
to me to involve hydraulics!

-Peter

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Eric - The reciprocating saw is probably the best recommendation, but I
> also second the recommendation of just trashing a blade in the chain saw.
>  In the end the time saved may be worth the cost of a blade.
>
> [snip]
>
> If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and
> lift the bucket.  If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe or a
> dozer.  Probably best to rent one of these.
>
> If I remember correctly, you had a fork lift.  Drive close and hook a
> chain to the base of one of the forks and you can probably get some good
> pulling action.
>
> Brian

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Tue Jan 22 20:39:57 2013
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:39:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP94TumeYueyYcCe_O1jE-wX-=FvpE1Do_cDejxNBPvCLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>
	<50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net>
	<CAJ8HLP94TumeYueyYcCe_O1jE-wX-=FvpE1Do_cDejxNBPvCLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50FF5B8D.80509@frontier.com>

That would be my suggestion, too.  A backhoe/excavator with a thumb 
and/or a cat, then a tub grinder, assuming you can't pile them up and 
burn them.


On 1/22/2013 7:08 PM, Peter Murray wrote:
> If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and
> >lift the bucket.  If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe or a
> >dozer.  Probably best to rent one of these.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jan 23 06:29:20 2013
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:29:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP94TumeYueyYcCe_O1jE-wX-=FvpE1Do_cDejxNBPvCLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFA799B516.A03D7F4E-ON85257AFB.0076E1F5-85257AFB.0078C204@mail.megageek.com>,
	<50FF5203.2020808@earthlink.net>,
	<CAJ8HLP94TumeYueyYcCe_O1jE-wX-=FvpE1Do_cDejxNBPvCLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL002-W27E9E59C2560022637D8B5CC150@phx.gbl>

I have used a reciprocating saw as well, but the mention of hydraulics reminds
me that I have also used my engine lift.  Depending on how big the trees are,
if you can get a chain to grab something, it can be used to just pull it up
enough to easily cut the tap root or just break it off.

> From: peterwmurray at gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:08:17 -0500
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
>
> Oh, and look at me making the junior-grade mistake - it didn't even occur
> to me to involve hydraulics!
>
> -Peter
>
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Eric - The reciprocating saw is probably the best recommendation, but I
> > also second the recommendation of just trashing a blade in the chain saw.
> >  In the end the time saved may be worth the cost of a blade.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > If the trees are not too big, get a Bobcat and a chain, wrap a root and
> > lift the bucket.  If you can't pull out the root, move up to a backhoe or
a
> > dozer.  Probably best to rent one of these.
> >
> > If I remember correctly, you had a fork lift.  Drive close and hook a
> > chain to the base of one of the forks and you can probably get some good
> > pulling action.
> >
> > Brian
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM  Wed Jan 23 07:45:10 2013
From: Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM (Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:45:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
Message-ID: <20130123074510.9ca1fc12d483d9b734133f7a17b3a738.cd0799141c.wbe@email02.secureserver.net>


From Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM  Wed Jan 23 07:59:59 2013
From: Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM (Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:59:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting roots
Message-ID: <20130123075959.9ca1fc12d483d9b734133f7a17b3a738.0088b7dc39.wbe@email02.secureserver.net>


From tputland at charter.net  Sat Jan 26 16:16:24 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:16:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question
Message-ID: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net>

Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc? 
(I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such 
nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or 
even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any 
given pc, no matter the origins of the pc.

Thanks

tim

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Jan 26 17:58:35 2013
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:58:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question
In-Reply-To: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <51047BBB.1000103@xxiii.com>

On 1/26/2013 6:16 PM, Tim wrote:
> Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc?
> (I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such
> nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or
> even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any
> given pc, no matter the origins of the pc.

Not EVEN sure what you're asking... like ANY PC running windows? 
ctrl-shift-esc is a keyboard shortcut to pop up task manager, or a 
substituted program (SysInternals' Process Explorer recommended.) But 
that can be disabled in Group Policies on a business machine, and it 
still won't necessarily show every process running. There are "root 
kits" that can be in place, hiding themselves from the O/S and user, or 
the whole computer can be virtualized and running on top of a 
"hypervisor" like VMWare.

Or all of reality as you think you know it could be virtualized, and an 
omnipotent computer network could be feeding neural signals into your 
brain telling you what it wants you to see on your screen  :)

-Wayne

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 26 19:45:53 2013
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 21:45:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question
In-Reply-To: <51047BBB.1000103@xxiii.com>
References: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net>,
	<51047BBB.1000103@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W590E2EDFC72C894A37ED89A190@phx.gbl>

It's an interesting question, but the answer probably has alot to do with what
kind of access level you already have.  If you are a regular user on a work
machine, and the machine is (rightly) locked down to where you have very
little access to view logs, browse the C: drive or see all running processes,
I'm afraid you have very little chance of being completely sure.   In a
situation where you are an employee, then you've (probably) surrendered any
privacy you have by virtue of that employment (other than legally protected
attorney - client type communications, IIRC).  Most tools you could use to
detect this stuff won't run as a non-admin, or won't see everything, leaving
you with a false sense of security.
If you think you're being snooped on, and you have admin or root access, you
should have the capability to trace much of the monitoring activity with some
tools, such as was mentioned before.  SysInternals tools are great for tracing
executables, autorun programs, and network connections on a windows system,
though to the uninitiated it could be kind of confusing.  I'm not aware of any
"anti-monitoring" tools out there, but a rootkit, dug down deep in the system
would be hard to detect without some real forensics.  It's probably safe to
say most software packages created for this purpose are going to be Windows
based.
Of course there are ways to monitor web browsing activity outside of software
on the PC as well, by intercepting all your browsing as it leaves your PC.
Or with the proper access to your system remotely, someone could periodically
reach into your system and grab logs, web history, etc. and then disconnect
very quickly.  Or a USB stick inserted that autoruns and gathers this
information dumping it all back to the usb key which is then removed.  This
could be done on any OS.
Of course, a simple Task Manager search could reveal something, but again, I
would think most software packages designed for this purpose would do a good
job of hiding themselves that this might not be enough to be "sure".
-PJ
> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:58:35 -0500
> From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> To: tputland at charter.net; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question
>
> On 1/26/2013 6:16 PM, Tim wrote:
> > Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc?
> > (I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such
> > nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or
> > even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any
> > given pc, no matter the origins of the pc.
>
> Not EVEN sure what you're asking... like ANY PC running windows?
> ctrl-shift-esc is a keyboard shortcut to pop up task manager, or a
> substituted program (SysInternals' Process Explorer recommended.) But
> that can be disabled in Group Policies on a business machine, and it
> still won't necessarily show every process running. There are "root
> kits" that can be in place, hiding themselves from the O/S and user, or
> the whole computer can be virtualized and running on top of a
> "hypervisor" like VMWare.
>
> Or all of reality as you think you know it could be virtualized, and an
> omnipotent computer network could be feeding neural signals into your
> brain telling you what it wants you to see on your screen  :)
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Jan 27 14:13:21 2013
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:13:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pc monitoring question
In-Reply-To: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <4b1ddc04.3b69bf.13c7925c585.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGNgLTmOWnOL4OGMzP2q5za1_SOQRZdr9NrX_A=N9wQD4g@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

Most sure way to tell is to spend a day looking at kiddie porn, and
then see if you get fired.

Mark

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:
> Is there a way to tell if there is computer monitoring software on a pc?
> (I am not referring to spyware, tracking cookies any other such
> nefarious things) I am wondering if I can look at say, task manager (or
> even in windows explorer), and see if there is any such software on any
> given pc, no matter the origins of the pc.
>
> Thanks
>
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Jan 28 18:43:34 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:43:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
Message-ID: <282161b7.3cadac.13c83f93be4.Webtop.47@charter.net>

Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids. 
I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I 
read here.

My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is this 
actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K to $5K. 
Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery?

Thanks
tim

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Jan 28 19:13:42 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:13:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
Message-ID: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>

OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a lower 
mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The wife 
totaled her car Saturday and we have to have two cars.


On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote:

> Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry 
> hybrids. I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the 
> info, etc I read here.
>
> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is 
> this actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K 
> to $5K. Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery?
>
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Jan 28 19:33:08 2013
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:33:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <282161b7.3cadac.13c83f93be4.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <282161b7.3cadac.13c83f93be4.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <238FE6E91B5344E39158A9C8B90C7C3F@EricJRussellPC>

I don't see the 'bottom line' advantage of the hybrids. The added cost is 
not usually offset by any fuel savings until gas gets over $5.00/gallon.

Our 2006 Camry Solara with 4 cylinder engine easily gets 35+ mpg. A friend 
has two Corolla's (one manual trans, one auto trans). He easily gets ~ 40 
mpg in mixed city/highway.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 

> Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids.
> I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I
> read here.

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 19:57:02 2013
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:57:02 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6cXAiPU_fBX0Gy5W+VckXXchVMyhT9y+CpsxDA07Eqcsw@mail.gmail.com>

Think about borrowing or renting something for a couple of weeks so you
have more time to look and decide.

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a lower
> mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The wife totaled
> her car Saturday and we have to have two cars.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote:
>
>  Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids.
>> I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I read
>> here.
>>
>> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is this
>> actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K to $5K.
>> Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery?
>>
>> Thanks
>> tim
>> ______________________________**_________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
>> options/shop-talk/tputland@**charter.net<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net>
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com>

From shannahquilts at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 22:52:14 2013
From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:52:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>

I hope your wife is okay.

I can't speak to whether or not you should buy
the Camry.

However, we have an 2005 Prius with about
98,000 miles on it, and we aren't anywhere near
buying new batteries.  Ours are working just
great.

We are taking it in for an "intermediate drive shaft"
recall tomorrow morning.

That points up what is, to me, the big thing to look
at with the car: what recalls have there been on it,
and which ones have been done?  Yes, they are
paid for by Toyota (or, at least, ours have been) but
it's a pain in the neck to have to drop the car off,
especially if you need two, as you do.

Otherwise, if it's been serviced regularly, I would
think that I'd be willing to take a chance on it.

If you have more technical questions, you might
try Luscious Garage's website.

http://www.lusciousgarage.com/

Carolyn, John, and the other techs are very good
about answering questions, and taking seriously
the concerns of car owners.

Shannah

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a lower
> mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The wife totaled
> her car Saturday and we have to have two cars.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote:
>
>  Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry hybrids.
>> I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the info, etc I read
>> here.
>>
>> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is this
>> actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K to $5K.
>> Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery?
>>
>> Thanks
>> tim
>> ______________________________**_________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
>> options/shop-talk/tputland@**charter.net<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net>
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/**
> shannahquilts at gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com>

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 09:16:41 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:16:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com>

I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them.

Having said that...I second the advice about looking at non-hybrids. 
Several co-workers have various hybrids and I suspect the advertised 
m.p.g. claims aren't being reached.

I wanted a Pruis, and my plan was to get one from the dealer for a test 
drive and drive it a week to see what kind of mileage I got on my 
commute, but Toyota isn't Acura et al and won't let you keep one that long.

Mileage is obviously highly dependent on personal driving habits, but I 
think that's even more a factor for a Toyota-style hybrid. So long as 
you accelerate gently enough and stay below a certain speed, the 
electric motor is supposed to power the whole car. I'm sure there's a 
certain amount of driver training you'll do to yourself, but you also 
have to account for hills and traffic on your commute, and the best way 
to see is to just drive one over the route several times and...see.

Anyway, one co-worker insists she gets 50+ m.p.g., but her husband says 
she's putting gas in the tank at about the same rate as when she owned a 
Civic, according to the credit card statements. A few admit to 
disappointment on mileage, but that could be a factor of missed 
(unrealistic) expectations, and the mileage could still be very good. 
The Camry hybrid and Priuses I got as rentals didn't impress me, but I 
drove them like a regular car, I wasn't on my daily commute, and I think 
I remember reading that hybrids 'learn' your driving somewhat, which 
would be messed up in a rental.

I ended up not buying a hybrid. Dunno, just some thoughts. And if you 
get one, let us know what sort of mileage you get, would you?

Oh, and my neighbor converted a Pruis into a plug-in hybrid and has 
decals all over it that say 100 m.p.g. I've got the web site written 
down somewhere if you buy the Camry and want to check it out. I'd 
imagine if anyone knew how to get those things to make excellent mileage 
it'd be him.

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan 29 07:52:57 2013
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 06:52:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB.D1.26261.642E7015@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Mileage is obviously highly dependent on personal driving 
> habits, but I think that's even more a factor for a 
> Toyota-style hybrid.

A good friend of mine has owned several Priuses (or whatever the plural is).
He claimed to routinely get over 50 mpg on his commute to work (in LA
traffic but in the carpool lane), while his "leadfoot" wife only gets around
40.  He once borrowed my wagon for a few days and I got to drive his 1st gen
Prius; my average was 48.2 (according to the onboard computer) just driving
somewhat conservatively (no hypermiling or anything like that) on my usual
mix of surface and freeway.

But maintenance costs have been high, particularly tires (which are a
special high load capacity, low rolling resistance construction that wears
out quickly); the high voltage battery has already failed once (although
after some fighting with Toyota, he got them to cover half of the $7k
replacement cost); and it was going to cost some $500 to replace the AC
condenser.

So when the carpool sticker expired last year, he traded the Prius on a
Leaf.  He really likes it, but just last week he was talking about how he
couldn't get to work and back with the headlights, wipers and heater all
running.

The silly mileage claims for plug-in hybrids (and full electrics) depend
heavily on what equivalence you choose between kWh and gallons.  They tend
to fall apart when you use your actual marginal cost for the electricity (I
only pay about $.16/kWh on average, but the last kWh each month costs more
like $.33) and factor in things like the cost of the charging station.

YMMV and all that.
-- Randall 

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 08:07:36 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:07:36 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>

On 1/29/2013 8:16 AM, Scott wrote:
> I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them.

The concept's okay if you don't mind the extra complexity and package 
size.  But...I've found late-model Toyota product to be pretty 
unpleasant vehicles to drive.

There's something about the last couple generations of Camry - the 
driving position, somehow - that's just a little off for me.   All the 
late-model Toyotas I've driven have flat, slabby seats that presumably 
are compromised for the three-hundie buyer, but I'm not and I don't like 
them.   And the shape suffers somewhat (not as bad as a Merc CLS, but 
enough that even my car-ignorant sister-in-law would notice) from 
shrinking-window syndrome.

Mechanically, the Prius works better.  Really well, in fact.  The 
engine's happier, without the groans and shakes that accompany the 
Camry's bigger four.   The chassis is surprisingly good (better than the 
last generation, it doesn't hobby-horse and it knows where straight 
ahead is.)  It's a Toyota, so the cheap hard plastic interior at least 
fits together pretty well, the caveat about flat unsupportive seats 
still applies.

But...I could never own one.  It's like driving a jail cell.

Those long, flat A-pillars narrow the forward field of vision to about 
40 degrees.  Beyond that you're bobbing and weaving around to look 
through little holes and slices and notches in the glass in front and 
behind you.

It just gets very tiring to drive the thing after a while.

I had a second-gen car as a loaner for a couple weeks back when my M5 
was still under warranty and the dealer had to take the dash apart to 
fix an AC whistle.  I drove it like I would anything else I own, up and 
down the SF peninsula, and got exactly 40mpg average.

John.

From mdporter at dfn.com  Tue Jan 29 08:31:22 2013
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:31:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>

On 1/29/2013 8:07 AM, John Miller wrote:
> On 1/29/2013 8:16 AM, Scott wrote:
>> I love hybrids--both the concept and Toyota's execution of them.
>
>
> I had a second-gen car as a loaner for a couple weeks back when my M5 
> was still under warranty and the dealer had to take the dash apart to 
> fix an AC whistle.  I drove it like I would anything else I own, up 
> and down the SF peninsula, and got exactly 40mpg average.
>

Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.  Do you 
really expect a car for half or less than that price--and with 
technology radically different than yours--to be better overall? (And I 
say that as a pleased new owner of a twelve-year-old BMW 530i 5-spd that 
gets 31 mpg on the highway.)


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 09:11:53 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:11:53 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
Message-ID: <df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>

>Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.  
70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it.   I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present Toyota.

John.
-- 
Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

From mdporter at dfn.com  Tue Jan 29 09:25:36 2013
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:25:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>

On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote:
>> Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.
> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it.

Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what 
year?-a 2007 is $82K).  $70K is still about double the cost of the cars 
to which you're making a judgment.
>     I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present Toyota.

And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a 
kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the 
`80s.  I know the technology of that time.

Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me.


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 09:30:54 2013
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:30:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>
Message-ID: <EA4B0877-333D-41A6-911E-F78876D76AE0@gmail.com>

I have to agree that the modern Toyotas have pretty terrible seats and are
incredibly numb to drive.  And that's comparing it to our '09 TDI Jetta and
'10 TDI Golf.  For the record, I don't like the seats in the Jetta nearly as
well as in the Golf, but they're still better than the Toyotas I've driven.

-Paul

On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Michael Porter <mdporter at dfn.com> wrote:

> On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote:
>>> Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.
>> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it.
>
> Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what year?-a
2007 is $82K).  $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which
you're making a judgment.
>>    I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better seats,
better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present
Toyota.
>
> And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a kidder--I
was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s.  I know the
technology of that time.
>
> Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me.
>
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
>
>
> Michael Porter
> Roswell, NM

From lists at dinospider.com  Tue Jan 29 09:47:39 2013
From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:47:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com>

  Hybrids are nice, a friend owns a Prius and while there was nothing 
wrong his 3 year old one, he traded it in on a new one a month ago. He 
wanted the "cooler" that tries to keep the interior cool while the car 
is parked at work, some kind of fan that exhausts the hot air.  That was 
it, that is why he traded in his 3 year old car.  He gets great mileage 
with the car and brags about it all the time, he works 6 miles from home 
and drives about 7,000 miles a year based on the mileage of his trade 
in.  If you amortize the cost of the car, the MPG costs get pretty high.

  But they are NOT for me!

  I firmly believe life is too short to not drive the car you want, I 
get 14MPG when I am lucky and if I didn't need to hear that 3.6l V8 
screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but I 
can't stop listening to it.  When my friend drives with me, we get to 
work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no matter 
how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking lot and 
seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back.   We 
don't have that smile in his car.  When my wife first drove my car to 
her work (local high school) she said it was surprising to her how much 
more she enjoyed the drive both to work and then home.  But she does not 
drive it to work often, the kids pay too much attention to the car and 
she is afraid it will get scratched if she pisses one of them off, so 
she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month.

  A Prius and other hybrids are get from point-a to point-b appliances 
but life is too short for that type of living, life is all about getting 
to point-b from point-a via point-c and maybe even point-d.    I am a 
15,000-20,000 miles per year kind of guy, it may be 6 miles to work, but 
its often 40+ miles over the mountain roads to get home and then there 
is the weekends :)

  To each his own, some people are all about the maximum MPG no matter 
what the initial cost of the car is, others are all about the maximum 
SPG (smiles per gallon).

   Mike

From shannahquilts at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 09:54:09 2013
From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:54:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <EA4B0877-333D-41A6-911E-F78876D76AE0@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>
	<EA4B0877-333D-41A6-911E-F78876D76AE0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7z=3i0H1AFWB5v_zfiZPyGsg0CSR+6jESPS4K+V0c-PFAnw@mail.gmail.com>

Let me state upfront that I do like my 2010 Prius.

That said, "numb" is a great way to describe it.
It's my understanding that the brakes are computer
controlled.  This leads to zero road feel in the brake
pedal, and it works oddly at times.

Sometimes, I put my foot on the brake, and it slams
on immediately with very little travel in the pedal.

Other times, I put my foot on the brake, and it travels
a very long way before reluctantly slowing down the
car.  If I persist, it will stop, but in its own sweet time.

Luckily, after someone rear ended me (lots of damage)
last year, the brakes have been better (no idea why)
but they are still chancy enough that I will not be
handing this car down to my son when he gets his
license.

I have a friend who occasionally needs to drive one
of our cars, and she strongly prefers the 2005 to the
2010.

I had to take my car to an independent mechanic
(Luscious Garage) to get the headlights adjusted,
because they were so low I could not see to drive
at night, and the dealership kept telling me they were
fine.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have
kept my Acura TSX and waited for a Volt, or Leaf,
or something.

I don't see having a hybrid or electric car as something
that I'm doing directly for the environment.  I am
supporting the technology so that it improves to the
point where it *does* make a big difference.

Shannah

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have to agree that the modern Toyotas have pretty terrible seats and are
> incredibly numb to drive.  And that's comparing it to our '09 TDI Jetta and
> '10 TDI Golf.  For the record, I don't like the seats in the Jetta nearly
> as
> well as in the Golf, but they're still better than the Toyotas I've driven.
>
> -Paul
>
> On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Michael Porter <mdporter at dfn.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote:
> >>> Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.
> >> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it.
> >
> > Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what
> year?-a
> 2007 is $82K).  $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which
> you're making a judgment.
> >>    I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better
> seats,
> better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present
> Toyota.
> >
> > And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a kidder--I
> was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s.  I know the
> technology of that time.
> >
> > Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me.
> >
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Michael Porter
> > Roswell, NM
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 09:56:00 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:56:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>
Message-ID: <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>

>>     I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better
>> seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any
>> present Toyota.
>
> And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a
> kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the
> `80s.  I know the technology of that time.
>
> Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me.

And please don't bullshit me.  Read what I wrote.

I said that '86 Celica had:

a) better seats
b) better material quality
c) better outward visibility

than any present Toyota.

Do you dispute those points?  Please explain where I said anything about 
the powertrain or fuel economy.

There's no question that there've been substantial changes (mostly but 
not all improvements) in powertrain technology since 1986.

My original point still stands:

a) Present-day Toyotas (and it's true of many of the other Japanese 
brands as well) have been thrifted and decontented mercilessly over the 
past two decades, to the point that it widely affects parts of the 
vehicle you see and feel.

b) The material quality is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago 
(you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality comparable 
to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early '90s)

c) They've always had tendencies toward odd designs but in some cases 
they've gone full-tilt down the weird hole often to the detriment of 
functionality.  I would note here that while Honda followed the 
Prius-style extended A-pillars with the last couple generations of 
Civic, the new Civic-based small Acura pulls them back to a more 
traditional shape.

John.

From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Jan 29 10:08:39 2013
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <168736809.467184.1359479319787.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

+1 


-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Rambour" <lists at dinospider.com> 
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:47:39 AM 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids 

Hybrids are nice, a friend owns a Prius and while there was nothing 
wrong his 3 year old one, he traded it in on a new one a month ago. He 
wanted the "cooler" that tries to keep the interior cool while the car 
is parked at work, some kind of fan that exhausts the hot air. That was 
it, that is why he traded in his 3 year old car. He gets great mileage 
with the car and brags about it all the time, he works 6 miles from home 
and drives about 7,000 miles a year based on the mileage of his trade 
in. If you amortize the cost of the car, the MPG costs get pretty high. 

But they are NOT for me! 

I firmly believe life is too short to not drive the car you want, I 
get 14MPG when I am lucky and if I didn't need to hear that 3.6l V8 
screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but I 
can't stop listening to it. When my friend drives with me, we get to 
work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no matter 
how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking lot and 
seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back. We 
don't have that smile in his car. When my wife first drove my car to 
her work (local high school) she said it was surprising to her how much 
more she enjoyed the drive both to work and then home. But she does not 
drive it to work often, the kids pay too much attention to the car and 
she is afraid it will get scratched if she pisses one of them off, so 
she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month. 

A Prius and other hybrids are get from point-a to point-b appliances 
but life is too short for that type of living, life is all about getting 
to point-b from point-a via point-c and maybe even point-d. I am a 
15,000-20,000 miles per year kind of guy, it may be 6 miles to work, but 
its often 40+ miles over the mountain roads to get home and then there 
is the weekends :) 

To each his own, some people are all about the maximum MPG no matter 
what the initial cost of the car is, others are all about the maximum 
SPG (smiles per gallon). 

Mike 

From miq at bigllama.com  Tue Jan 29 10:10:54 2013
From: miq at bigllama.com (Miq Millman)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:10:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <EA4B0877-333D-41A6-911E-F78876D76AE0@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>
	<EA4B0877-333D-41A6-911E-F78876D76AE0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALUbS3E0e02SO4HnwdDge9p=bOXEW_=J2kN85pTrfTcpQKmp1Q@mail.gmail.com>

There are multiple studies available that compare Diesel to Hybrid and for
the cost per mile, plus long term recycling (li-ion battery == land fill
waste == not green) the Diesel is better, even paying more at the pump for
the go go juice.  This is especially true of used cars that are closer to
their 10 year replacement storage pack.

Considering you can find a used Jetta TDI for between $5-9K (2003-2007) and
a Camry Hybrid is about 2x that, the extra $5000 you would have spent on
the hybrid goes a long way to pay for the extra $0.30/gallon.  Not to
mention the $7000 replacement battery.....

For the record, my 2003 E39 530i sport is by far the best handling, most
comfortable, 5 seater I've ever driven.  It get's 34 mpg on the highway
between Portland and Seattle on cruise at 70 mph.  I'll likely have this
one in my cardrobe for the next 20 years.  (just ticked over 74k miles, I
average about 4500 a year in it).

As old age and treachery becomes more prominent in our lives, I say buy a
car for the connection you have strongest with with:  your buttocks in the
seat.  Comfy seats go a long way towards alleviating the other annoyances
(wind noise, tire noise, poor mpg, poor acceleration)....

Happy curmudgeon day.
--
__
Miq Millman   miq at bigllama.com
Tualatin, OR  Big Llama Productions


On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have to agree that the modern Toyotas have pretty terrible seats and are
> incredibly numb to drive.  And that's comparing it to our '09 TDI Jetta and
> '10 TDI Golf.  For the record, I don't like the seats in the Jetta nearly
> as
> well as in the Golf, but they're still better than the Toyotas I've driven.
>
> -Paul
>
> On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Michael Porter <mdporter at dfn.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1/29/2013 9:11 AM, John Miller wrote:
> >>> Apples and oranges.  Your M5 is a car with an MRSP of over $80K.
> >> 70k E39, and that has nothing to do with it.
> >
> > Oh, yes, it does, because that's your standard for comparison (what
> year?-a
> 2007 is $82K).  $70K is still about double the cost of the cars to which
> you're making a judgment.
> >>    I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better
> seats,
> better material quality, and better outward visibility than any present
> Toyota.
> >
> > And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a kidder--I
> was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the `80s.  I know the
> technology of that time.
> >
> > Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me.
> >
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Michael Porter
> > Roswell, NM
> _______________________________________________

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 10:19:04 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:19:04 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <51080488.6010108@milleredp.com>

> don't have that smile in his car.  When my wife first drove my car to
> her work (local high school) she said it was surprising to her how much
> more she enjoyed the drive both to work and then home.  But she does not
> drive it to work often, the kids pay too much attention to the car and
> she is afraid it will get scratched if she pisses one of them off, so
> she only drives it work maybe 2-3 times a month.

There's apparently a large buyer base out there who cares about nothing 
but fuel economy and iPhone integration.

Really, though, the Prius these days goes pretty well (especially if you 
push the 'Power' button.)  In daily use it feels like a really good CVT 
hooked to an engine with a nice fat torque curve - what's really going 
on of course is that the electric motor's filling in the holes in the 
gasoline engine's response.   The response to the gas pedal is better 
than most of the small-engine-plus-automatic combinations out there.

If it were just packaged in something that had the greenhouse and 
ergonomics of a 2002 (or an AE86 Corolla) it'd be wonderful.

John.

From mdporter at dfn.com  Tue Jan 29 10:22:33 2013
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:22:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <51080559.8010509@dfn.com>

On 1/29/2013 9:56 AM, John Miller wrote:
>>>     I just dragged home a freebie '86 Celica beater that has better
>>> seats, better material quality, and better outward visibility than any
>>> present Toyota.
>>
>> And, your `86 Celica gets about 22-24 mpg overall.  Don't kid a
>> kidder--I was a Toyota factory-trained, master line mechanic in the
>> `80s.  I know the technology of that time.
>>
>> Good cars for the age, but, don't bullshit me.
>
> And please don't bullshit me.  Read what I wrote.
>
> I said that '86 Celica had:
>
> a) better seats
> b) better material quality
> c) better outward visibility
>
> than any present Toyota.

And, it got much shittier mileage, and, maybe, the newer cars don't 
because of changes to the overall configuration, including seats and the 
shape of the envelope.
>
> Do you dispute those points?  Please explain where I said anything 
> about the powertrain or fuel economy.

You didn't. Which means you ignored the changes made for increased mileage.
>
> There's no question that there've been substantial changes (mostly but 
> not all improvements) in powertrain technology since 1986.
>
> My original point still stands:

Does it? You whined about seating and visibility, based on experience 
with other makes.
>
> a) Present-day Toyotas (and it's true of many of the other Japanese 
> brands as well) have been thrifted and decontented mercilessly over 
> the past two decades, to the point that it widely affects parts of the 
> vehicle you see and feel.

Based on your experiences with a much more expensive car, and a small 
amount of time with a car of lesser value and much higher mileage than 
the one you're used to driving.
>
> b) The material quality is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago 
> (you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality 
> comparable to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early 
> '90s)

To some extent, I agree with this.  Toyota put much more effort and 
money into the high-dollar Lexus than its lesser brands, and that cost 
them market share (the recent problems with throttle/braking issues is 
just one aspect of the problem--they've tried to incorporate 
technological changes across the lines that didn't work well. They spent 
so much money on Lexus technology that they expected to filter down and 
be suitable for low-end models--and which didn't--that they've now had 
to retrench and rethink what they've been doing).
>
> c) They've always had tendencies toward odd designs but in some cases 
> they've gone full-tilt down the weird hole often to the detriment of 
> functionality.  I would note here that while Honda followed the 
> Prius-style extended A-pillars with the last couple generations of 
> Civic, the new Civic-based small Acura pulls them back to a more 
> traditional shape.
>

Why this emphasis on A-pillars? That seems to be a peculiarity unique to 
you and unrelated to the cars.  I adapt to the front and side views 
whatever car I'm in, whether it's the GT6 I still use occasionally, or 
the BMW.  I think that's just an anachronism that's particular to you 
and not the car design. A-pillars really don't mean shit.  C'mon, ever 
since the `30s, they've been pretty thin and unobtrusive.  Maybe you're 
manufacturing a complaint here.


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 10:41:28 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:41:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51080559.8010509@dfn.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com>
Message-ID: <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>

> Based on your experiences with a much more expensive car, and a small
> amount of time with a car of lesser value and much higher mileage than
> the one you're used to driving.

Let's see here.  Since 1981 I've driven two or more examples of 
virtually every Toyota product built.  Corollas, Celicas, a few Camrys, 
Mk2/3 Supras and a Mk4.  Land Cruisers, 4Runners, the occasional pickup 
and Cressida.  Only owned two, but a brother-in-law was a Toyota dealer 
for a few years so they were all over the family.  IS300s (someday I may 
go find a good one of those, that was one very nice car), GS, LS.  I 
don't fit in the Lexus ES or the later GSes so I try to avoid those.

In that period I've also owned a fair number of Fords, Saabs, VWs, BMWs, 
two Suburbans and an Audi.

> To some extent, I agree with this.  Toyota put much more effort and
> money into the high-dollar Lexus than its lesser brands,

Toyota put a lot of money into starting the Lexus dealership body 
correctly.  They screwed their dealers down to a very high standard of 
behavior.

As for the cars themselves, they're Toyotas.  Very elaborate Toyotas, 
and almost the only US Toyota product still built in Japan, but Toyotas.

> Why this emphasis on A-pillars? That seems to be a peculiarity unique to
> you and unrelated to the cars.

Perhaps it's my peculiarity but there are three things that matter to me 
when I sit down in a car: the seat, the steering, and the outward 
visibility.  How the powertrain behaves, or even the ultimate limits of 
the suspension, those might be an annoyance later, or you might work 
around their limits.  But the driving position, the outward visibility, 
and the steering is either right or wrong in the first minute.   This is 
as true for a VW Beetle as an E39 BMW.

I can think of only one car I've owned where I was fooled - we bought a 
'92 Infiniti Q45.  Beautifully built, very fast, its 278 horses were 
much beefier animals than the 282 BMW put in the 540i that replaced it, 
when it hit its 145mph speed limiter you'd actually feel a pretty good 
lurch as it cut you back.

But the footwells were so shallow, the distance from pan to roof too 
short, so for someone 6'1" like me you're either sitting with your legs 
straight out or your head wedged in the headliner.   My 5'2" wife 
thought it was just fine.   Also, 2.1-turn steering and 4200lb of mass 
do not go together, it was a twitchy beast.  Nissan slowed the steering 
down in '93.

John.

From mdporter at dfn.com  Tue Jan 29 10:55:25 2013
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:55:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <51080D0D.5070903@dfn.com>

On 1/29/2013 10:41 AM, John Miller wrote:
>
> But the footwells were so shallow, the distance from pan to roof too 
> short, so for someone 6'1" like me you're either sitting with your 
> legs straight out or your head wedged in the headliner.   My 5'2" wife 
> thought it was just fine.   Also, 2.1-turn steering and 4200lb of mass 
> do not go together, it was a twitchy beast.  Nissan slowed the 
> steering down in '93.
>

I'm 6'4" and I just  barely fit in a GT6 (which I've been driving for 
the last seven years). I'm guess I'm not as fussy as you. Sitting in a 
530i is like being in an opera seat to me. :)


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From lists at dinospider.com  Tue Jan 29 11:12:07 2013
From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:12:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com>

  can we keep the my dick is bigger than your dick discussion out of the 
hybrid discussion ?

  cuz if not, this is the internet and you will lose to me anyway.

  The issues with hybrids to me are that they are not fun to drive, I 
don't care about MPG I care about fun.  No I am not rich but I budget 
for my gasoline because the car I choose to drive gets such bad mileage.

  When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new front 
ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the 
week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive.  I did not like the 
transition from electric to gas, I hated hearing the engine shut off 
while driving at low speeds.  But it did get up and go very nicely, I 
actually had no issues with the function of the car just issues with the 
lack of enjoyment.

  It also was way too big a car, cup holders everywhere, electric crap 
everywhere, I was so happy to get back into my car with no cupholders, 
no back seat, no cruise control, just the basics with a V8 and 6 gears.

  And just like my wife's car (Hyundai Veloster) which has lousy seat, 
my friends Prius with lousy seat, the Panamera's seats were also 
uncomfortable after a few hours in the car.  I am beginning to think its 
a requirement for Hybrids to be uncomfortable.

From ElanS4 at cox.net  Tue Jan 29 11:13:12 2013
From: ElanS4 at cox.net (Mullen)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:13:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net>

The other thing to do is just ignore the hybrids and get a regular car that
gets good mileage.

Last summer my wife needed a new car and since she's having foot problems -
broken bone in on and a torn Achilles heel in the other, we decided to try
an automatic.  First automatic in over 33 years of marriage,

Anyway, the Hyundai Accent is advertised to get 40 MPG, and sure enough,
some around town driving drops it back to 30-35 MPG, but her five day
commute brings it up to 40 MPG or more.  It's a small car, but not too
small, drives nice, handles nice, rides nice. It's not a Lotus when it comes
to performance, but it will easily keep up or surpass a Camry or Civic.
It was a great investment, and was under 20,000 for a new car and I do
believe I'll get my monies worth out of it (I tend to keep cars until they
fall apart - still driving a '93 Accord with 240,000 miles on it).   We like
it, we just probably won't want to take it on a cross country trip to
California (from Virginia).  Our previous car (son inherited it) was a
Hyundai Elantra and it's a couple of years older - rated for 30 MPG and gets
there all the time.  It's a bit bigger and could easily server as our cross
country transportation.

Try one of the Hyundai's you will be surprised at the quality - they are
real cars, even though they are cheaper.

Tim Mullen

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Jan 29 11:29:54 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:29:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
Message-ID: <c334e18.3e2728.13c87928e79.Webtop.44@charter.net>

Thanks for some of what was replied to me. As the other stuff that 
didn't help with my inquiry, well, you know what to do.

As for toyota comfort, our recently wrecked 01 avalon was a rocket ship 
(even after 175k miles) and very very comfortable, even when three of 
four passengers were 6'0" or better, myself being 6'5".

tim


On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Tim wrote:

> OH yea, we are looking at an 07 with 143K on it. We can't afford a 
> lower mileage car but have no choice--we have to buy something. The 
> wife totaled her car Saturday and we have to have two cars.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Tim wrote:
>
>> Looking for people's feedback, input, experiences, etc on camry 
>> hybrids. I know literally nothing about hybirds and always like the 
>> info, etc I read here.
>>
>> My wife read 150K mileage battery life. Does anyone know if this is 
>> this actually accurate? I've read battery replacement costs from $3K 
>> to $5K. Anyone have any experience replacing a camry battery?
>>
>> Thanks
>> tim
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Jan 29 11:31:06 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:31:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net>
Message-ID: <962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> The other thing to do is just ignore the hybrids and get a regular car
> that
> gets good mileage.

The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car.  If you spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste of money.  Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall costs.

If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go.  A plug-in hybrid even better.


Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 11:56:40 2013
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:56:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net>
	<962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPgyfvZPyavLnhn+tjLksx3Pkt3-bS+YTF792FsNd9O6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:31 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car.  If you spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste of money.  Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall costs.
>
> If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go.  A plug-in hybrid even better.


This ^^^

Only marginally connected to the discussion, we bought two new
vehicles this year; one for me and one for my wife - which will be
opassed down to my daughter in bout 18 months, when she goes off to
college.

I traded a 97 F150 V6 for a 2012 F-150 EcoBoost.  I gained about 12%
increase in fuel mileage, and for the first time in 15 years, I have a
truck that can capably pull the car trailer...up to 11,300 pounds,
they claim.  And, it's fun to drive. Twin turbos = very little lag to
speak of (when the occasion calls for Go!).  I have 5300 miles on it,
and it's 1000 percent more comfortable than the 97 econotruck.

My wife got a 2012 Jetta SE.  It's more of an appliance than a Car,
since it's minimally equipped - the only gauge in the car is for fuel
level - but it has power windows and doors, and Bluetooth for the
phone.  If it had automatic headlights (or on all the time like our
Volvos) it would be perfect for its intended purpose.  We looked at
TDIs and liked them, but this was an end of the month, end of the
model year, last on the lot special that we just couldn't pass up.
The TDI would have been at least $6k more, which spoiled the economy
of it.

Both vehicles turned out to be a compromise between fuel mileage,
which is probably the largest ongoing expense, and comfort/fun, which
if it's lacking offsets the economy.  But we've been pretty happy with
both.

And, when I need extra smileage, I can choose a Triumph.  So there's that.

Jeff Scarbrough
Improving the economy in Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 12:25:00 2013
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:25:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CPgyfvZPyavLnhn+tjLksx3Pkt3-bS+YTF792FsNd9O6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net>
	<962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<CAO8Q7CPgyfvZPyavLnhn+tjLksx3Pkt3-bS+YTF792FsNd9O6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6dA+12Q0POaMf-+fWnmzWx2UsVrfoBp7E6mkMH+SBs_6A@mail.gmail.com>

All too often people will buy a vehicle "to save money" but they don't
calculate the real total cost of owning and driving. We have an '05 Accord
LX 4-door with 196K on it.. Our commute is 75-80 miles per day, mostly
rural highway, and we get 27 to 28 mpg. On trips up to DFW or to the San
Antonio area we'll usualy get around 30 while on cross country trips it's
not unusual to get 33+. The car's in really good shape and long paid for so
while a new ride with better mileage is tempting, dollar wise it doesn't
make sense when a $400/$500 payment is included, even getting 40 mpg.

I think it's more or less the same idea with the '02 Suburban we bought
last summer. We're the second owners and got it for $7200. Heck of a lot
cheaper that $45K for a new one! Even at 17 or 18 mpg we're better off
taking the Suburban instead of two high 20 mpg cars if we'll all fit in it.
If the kids get too rowdy thre's always the roof rack! It's also got the
full towing package with 3.73 gears so it'll handle a car hauler or travel
trailer pretty well, too. Even if I had to rebuild the engine and trans
(which I doubt, they're in great shape) I'm still way ahead compared to a
new one.

All that said, drive what you want for reasons that satisfy you, not
someone else. For fun driving I hop in my Datsun 2000 and soon I'll add a
couple of 510s.

Just sayin'
Ron

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:31 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> > The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car.  If you
> spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste
> of money.  Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall
> costs.
> >
> > If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in
> traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go.  A plug-in
> hybrid even better.
>
>
> This ^^^
>
> Only marginally connected to the discussion, we bought two new
> vehicles this year; one for me and one for my wife - which will be
> opassed down to my daughter in bout 18 months, when she goes off to
> college.
>
> I traded a 97 F150 V6 for a 2012 F-150 EcoBoost.  I gained about 12%
> increase in fuel mileage, and for the first time in 15 years, I have a
> truck that can capably pull the car trailer...up to 11,300 pounds,
> they claim.  And, it's fun to drive. Twin turbos = very little lag to
> speak of (when the occasion calls for Go!).  I have 5300 miles on it,
> and it's 1000 percent more comfortable than the 97 econotruck.
>
> My wife got a 2012 Jetta SE.  It's more of an appliance than a Car,
> since it's minimally equipped - the only gauge in the car is for fuel
> level - but it has power windows and doors, and Bluetooth for the
> phone.  If it had automatic headlights (or on all the time like our
> Volvos) it would be perfect for its intended purpose.  We looked at
> TDIs and liked them, but this was an end of the month, end of the
> model year, last on the lot special that we just couldn't pass up.
> The TDI would have been at least $6k more, which spoiled the economy
> of it.
>
> Both vehicles turned out to be a compromise between fuel mileage,
> which is probably the largest ongoing expense, and comfort/fun, which
> if it's lacking offsets the economy.  But we've been pretty happy with
> both.
>
> And, when I need extra smileage, I can choose a Triumph.  So there's that.
>
> Jeff Scarbrough
> Improving the economy in Corrosion Acres, Ga.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/forumsUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 17:33:23 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:33:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <51086A53.3020007@gmail.com>

On 1/29/2013 7:07 AM, John Miller wrote:
> There's something about the last couple generations of Camry - the 
> driving position, somehow - that's just a little off for me.   All the 
> late-model Toyotas I've driven have flat, slabby seats that presumably 
> are compromised for the three-hundie buyer, but I'm not and I don't 
> like them.   And the shape suffers somewhat (not as bad as a Merc CLS, 
> but enough that even my car-ignorant sister-in-law would notice) from 
> shrinking-window syndrome.

You know, I've been friends for a long time with a Camry person. She's 
had the last four generations of them. And I have to agree--I like each 
successive generation less and less. The last one was the car that made 
me finally understand what everyone was talking about when they talked 
about a 'transportation appliance', but I agree with you that the 
comfort factor seems to go down each time too. But that's a personal 
preference. Clearly she likes them, or she wouldn't keep buying them.

I've liked all the Priuses I've been in, but that might just be because 
I want to like them. Dunno.

Scott

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 17:41:34 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:41:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107FD2B.3000601@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <51086C3E.2010609@gmail.com>

On 1/29/2013 8:47 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:
>  I firmly believe life is too short to not drive the car you want, I 
> get 14MPG when I am lucky and if I didn't need to hear that 3.6l V8 
> screaming at 8,000RPM inches behind me, I might get better mileage but 
> I can't stop listening to it.  When my friend drives with me, we get 
> to work with huge smiles and start off the workday with a smile, no 
> matter how bad a day I had at work, just walking out to the parking 
> lot and seeing my car lifts my spirits, fire it up and my smile is back.

You know...I have to agree with this too. I somewhat reluctantly bought 
a CTS-V to replace my totaled Jetta TDI. I wanted another one just like 
the Jetta but couldn't find it and bought the CTS-V almost on a whim. 
I'd always wanted one, but it never really seemed like a mature decision.

I really kind of hate to admit this on an open forum, but I sometimes 
find myself revving the engine just to hear it after I start it. Like a 
five year-old. It's pretty lame. There might be occasional giggling, too.

I also, uh, frequently take advantage of the engine and chassis to and 
from work, the grocery store, to pick up the kid...wherever.

The only drawbacks are the abysmal gas mileage and the latent nagging 
fear that I had better keep a better eye out for police cruisers. You 
can get to 80 m.p.h. very, very easily and it won't feel like much at all.

Um, not that I do that. Ever.

But the car's a joy. I might still buy another really nice mileage 
car...but I don't think I'll be without a car like the CTS-V again. It's 
just too...fun...to give up.

Scott

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 17:45:23 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:45:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <51086D23.1070802@gmail.com>

On 1/29/2013 8:56 AM, John Miller wrote:
> b) The material quality is nowhere near what it was twenty years ago 
> (you have to shop in the Lexus store to get material quality 
> comparable to what was the norm in Toyota-label products in the early 
> '90s)

I don't know if I'd agree with that completely. We had a '93 Camry. It 
almost made non-Toyota people out of us.

I'd say the current ones seem to be at least as good as that car. Then 
again, I no longer have a Toyota, I just get them as rentals. Maybe they 
don't hold up anymore.

Our '83 Corolla, on the other hand, well, I'm still looking for one of 
those. Really. If anyone sees an '83 Corolla SR-5, email me.

Scott

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 17:51:28 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:51:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <962642674.189668.1359484266148.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <51086E90.1050402@gmail.com>

On 1/29/2013 10:31 AM, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> The important factor here is how you are going to drive a car.  If you spend a lot of time on the freeway in normal traffic, the hybrid is a waste of money.  Any cheap econobox is gong to do better than hybrids in overall costs.
>
> If you spend all your time in short trips around town and sitting in traffic-jams in nice weather, the hybrid is the way to go.  A plug-in hybrid even better.

That's what I meant to say with my original post. Phil can just post for 
me from now on.

My commute at the time was two miles of neighborhoods, five miles on the 
interstate, then a hundred yards to the office. That's the sort of 
environment where a Pruis wouldn't beat a non-hybrid.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 17:59:14 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:59:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
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	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net>
Message-ID: <51087062.3020103@gmail.com>

On 1/29/2013 10:13 AM, Mullen wrote:
> Try one of the Hyundai's you will be surprised at the quality - they are
> real cars, even though they are cheaper.
>

For a while I was getting a lot of 2009-and-later Sonatas from Avis.

They are REALLY nice cars. I am surprised each time. I far prefer them 
to Camrys. Just nicer to drive, nicer interior, better looking, everything.

The only thing that kept me away from them when I went shopping was an 
ex-girlfriend's '90-something Excel.

That car was worse than a Yugo. Yes, it's been twenty years. If I have 
to go car shopping again, I'll probably stop at the Hyundai dealer. 
Especially now that they've got a 400 h.p. V-8 (or something like that I 
saw in a car magazine recently).

If Ford would kindly drop an Ecoboost V-8 in a Taurus, give it 
rear-wheel drive and roll out the new S.H.O., I'd be there already. The 
new Tauruses are really nice too.

I can remember my older relatives insisting they'd NEVER buy a Honda or 
Toyota because 'the Japanese built garbage'. I think the Koreans were 
just a few decades behind them.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 18:01:57 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:01:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <51087105.4000502@gmail.com>

On 1/29/2013 10:12 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:
>  can we keep the my dick is bigger than your dick discussion out of 
> the hybrid discussion ?
>
>  cuz if not, this is the internet and you will lose to me anyway.

I'll admit it, I laughed. :-)

>  When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new front 
> ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the week

"Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror.

Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that.

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jan 29 15:08:27 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

My first thought was wow, it takes a week to do maintenance and ball 
joints?  My second thought was wow, you get a Porsche as a loaner?  I 
guess I live in a different universe.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 01:12 PM 1/29/2013, Mike Rambour wrote:
>  When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new 
> front ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive 
> for the week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive.

From lists at dinospider.com  Tue Jan 29 15:37:10 2013
From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:37:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com>
	<0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <51084F16.8090302@dinospider.com>

  I am sure it did not take a week but my dealer is 110 miles away, so I 
dropped off my car on Saturday and picked it up next Saturday.

  And, the Porsche was a 2012 model with 718 miles on it when I took it 
and the window sticker in the glovebox said $122k MSRP, I WAS living in 
a different universe that entire week. They have 5 of them for loaners, 
3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color nothing else.

     mike

On 01/29/2013 02:08 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:
> My first thought was wow, it takes a week to do maintenance and ball 
> joints?  My second thought was wow, you get a Porsche as a loaner?  I 
> guess I live in a different universe.
>
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net
>
> At 01:12 PM 1/29/2013, Mike Rambour wrote:
>>  When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new front 
>> ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive for the 
>> week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists at dinospider.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 15:42:16 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:42:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51084F16.8090302@dinospider.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com>
	<0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<51084F16.8090302@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <51085048.9000901@milleredp.com>

>   And, the Porsche was a 2012 model with 718 miles on it when I took it
> and the window sticker in the glovebox said $122k MSRP, I WAS living in
> a different universe that entire week. They have 5 of them for loaners,
> 3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color nothing else.

Did you evaluate how many sacks of concrete or fertilizer you can get 
into a Panamera?

It is, after all, a hatchback...which is at least something they got 
right in the design of that car.

We've got a bunch of Tesla Model S running around here, and every time I 
look at it I think "man, what was Porsche thinking with the Panamera?"

Tesla's gonna sell a bunch of those things on looks alone.

John.

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Jan 29 16:18:42 2013
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:18:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
Message-ID: <8a28eba.3e62c1.13c889af6b0.Webtop.45@charter.net>

A $112K LOANER vehicle? holllyy crap and WTF?


On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:

> I am sure it did not take a week but my dealer is 110 miles away, so I 
> dropped off my car on Saturday and picked it up next Saturday.
>
>  And, the Porsche was a 2012 model with 718 miles on it when I took it 
> and the window sticker in the glovebox said $122k MSRP, I WAS living 
> in a different universe that entire week. They have 5 of them for 
> loaners, 3 hybrids, 2 non hybrids, my wife chose it based on color 
> nothing else.
>
>     mike
>
> On 01/29/2013 02:08 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:
>> My first thought was wow, it takes a week to do maintenance and ball 
>> joints?  My second thought was wow, you get a Porsche as a loaner?  I 
>> guess I live in a different universe.
>>
>> -Steve Trovato
>> strovato at optonline.net
>>
>> At 01:12 PM 1/29/2013, Mike Rambour wrote:
>>>  When my car was in the shop for its annual maintenance and new 
>>> front ball joints, they gave me a Porsche Panamera Hybrid to drive 
>>> for the week, it was a nice car but still not fun to drive.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists at dinospider.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan 29 16:15:21 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:15:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51086E90.1050402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFC240672C.1975B30C-ON85257B02.00773300-85257B02.0080F710@mail.megageek.com>

OK, first, I want to go on record saying that hybrids are the worst of two 
worlds.  They are not an answer and they are only a knee-jerk reaction to 
high fuel prices.

I had a 1991 Mercedes 190D that got 40MPG.  That's right, in the 90's I 
was getting in the 40's.  Then, Americans suddenly decided that they 
needed their heads thrown back in the seats and the US Diesel car was 
dead.

That car was a DREAM to drive.  It was smooth as warm butter.  It got to 
100mph and you would never feel it.  It was a daily driver, but wouldn't 
be out of place at a super fancy restaurant or wedding.  The only problem 
was that it had abysmal 0-60 times  (I used to measure it with a 
calendar!)  8>)

With those two things said, I also want to chime in with 'total cost' 
calculations.  First, I need a work truck, so I had the 190D and a work 
truck.  It was a great combo, but when you factor in the dual maintenance 
costs, dual insurance / registration costs, double parking spaces (I 
garage keep everything) etc, there was no savings with the high milage 
40MPG over a since 18MPG truck.

I just bought a Envoy XUV and it's got the smile factor for sure.  It has 
a HUGE fuel tank, so I fill up about the same amount to times, but with 
much more fuel.  (Note, I drive VERY fast, 80MPH is normal.) so I only get 
about 15MPG.

When I was driving my last truck (2001 Ford Explorer) reasonably, I was 
getting almost 18-20MPG  (mostly highway.)

So, if you are curious about fuel costs and savings, here is a quick 
comparison tool I whipped up years ago when I was having a discussion with 
a fellow Soldier about the actually savings over a year based on gas 
prices...

here is the link...  (Which I just noticed only works with IE and not 
Chome (which I'll fix later))
http://www.megageek.com/gas/Page1.htm

You'll be surprised that it's not much difference.

BTW, the Ford Explorer is up for sale on ebay right now.  There is nothing 
wrong with it (less the minor things listed in the listing.)  If you want 
a $X$ for less than $2500, here is your chance...  8>)

>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-Ford-Explorer-XLT-Sport-Utility-4-Door-4-0L-DRIVE-MOON-/271145902926?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3f218e234e<

It's item # 271145902926  if the link doesn't work...


Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 29 16:48:25 2013
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:48:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51087105.4000502@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <51087105.4000502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9X=3NfNBx_dED+9r9Et2tXn8+vTTux8YOK1sjYYiD-yyg@mail.gmail.com>

Worse than "Porsche SUV"?

Doug

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> "Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror.
>
> Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that.
>
> ______________

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jan 29 16:48:29 2013
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:48:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
References: <51086E90.1050402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0MHE00LDYVIRBZL0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

You are a marketing genius!  You make incredibly high mileage sound 
like a feature!  I also notice the big red NO RESERVE at the top of 
the text.  But then it says "reserve not met" up by the 
bid.  Seriously though, it looks like a very nice truck, and it 
should be a great buy for the right person.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 06:15 PM 1/29/2013, eric at megageek.com wrote:

>BTW, the Ford Explorer is up for sale on ebay right now.  There is nothing
>wrong with it (less the minor things listed in the listing.)  If you want
>a $X$ for less than $2500, here is your chance...  8>)
>
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-Ford-Explorer-XLT-Sport-Utility 
> -4-Door-4-0L-DRIVE-MOON-/271145902926?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3f218e234e<

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 20:03:35 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:03:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9X=3NfNBx_dED+9r9Et2tXn8+vTTux8YOK1sjYYiD-yyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <51087105.4000502@gmail.com>
	<CAOtbU9X=3NfNBx_dED+9r9Et2tXn8+vTTux8YOK1sjYYiD-yyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51088D87.3010506@gmail.com>

That's like 1(a) and 1(b) of "things someone can get sent to hell for". :-)

On 1/29/2013 3:48 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
> Worse than "Porsche SUV"?
>
> Doug
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com 
> <mailto:scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     "Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror.
>
>     Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that.
>
>     ______________

From lists at dinospider.com  Tue Jan 29 17:09:08 2013
From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:09:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51088D87.3010506@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com> <51087105.4000502@gmail.com>
	<CAOtbU9X=3NfNBx_dED+9r9Et2tXn8+vTTux8YOK1sjYYiD-yyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<51088D87.3010506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <510864A4.9010805@dinospider.com>

  Hey, it was a nice car for some soccer mom that does not want to think 
while she drives.

  My wife even said there was only 2 things wrong with it.

  1. the price was about $90k too high
  2. the name plate on the front said Porsche

  but other than that, it was a nice car, it did its loaner duty very well.

     mike

  On 01/29/2013 07:03 PM, Scott wrote:
> That's like 1(a) and 1(b) of "things someone can get sent to hell for". :-)
>
> On 1/29/2013 3:48 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
>> Worse than "Porsche SUV"?
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
>> <mailto:scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>      "Porsche hybrid" is sacrilege to even utter. The horror.
>>
>>      Someone somewhere ought to be smacked around for that.
>>
>>      ______________
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists at dinospider.com

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan 29 16:59:19 2013
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:59:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <0MHE00LDYVIRBZL0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <OF5458BED4.7E4F3CD2-ON85257B02.0083941A-85257B03.00012786@mail.megageek.com>

OPPS, I forgot that I added a reserve!  Thanks for pointing it out.  I 
fixed it now.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




You are a marketing genius!  You make incredibly high mileage sound 
like a feature!  I also notice the big red NO RESERVE at the top of 
the text.  But then it says "reserve not met" up by the 
bid.  Seriously though, it looks like a very nice truck, and it 
should be a great buy for the right person.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 17:13:41 2013
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:13:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <OFC240672C.1975B30C-ON85257B02.00773300-85257B02.0080F710@mail.megageek.com>
References: <51086E90.1050402@gmail.com>
	<OFC240672C.1975B30C-ON85257B02.00773300-85257B02.0080F710@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CM29yO39RDQkLaPX0bxeGU2u3SnYJnqtdVatfZjg1ay+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 6:15 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I had a 1991 Mercedes 190D that got 40MPG.  That's right, in the 90's I
> was getting in the 40's.


In 1978 I worked for a VW dealer.  We had diesel Rabbits that always
got mid-40s.  And lasted 500 kilomiles.

Nothing new under the sun, except cars have had to get heavier.

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Jan 29 17:15:43 2013
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:15:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51084F16.8090302@dinospider.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net><CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com><5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com>
	<5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com><5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com><df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com><5107F800.9010702@dfn.com>
	<5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com><51080559.8010509@dfn.com>
	<510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com><510810F7.5070500@dinospider.com><0MHE00KS7QVYSTC0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<51084F16.8090302@dinospider.com>
Message-ID: <6A1F2ADD895F4512B118113C7A4A14FF@EricJRussellPC>

From: "Mike Rambour" 

> my wife chose it based on color nothing else.

http://www.funny-page.net/detail-699.html 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Jan 29 17:57:58 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:57:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51086E90.1050402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <178703608.197321.1359507478127.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> Phil can just post
> for
> me from now on.

LOL!


Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 21:26:16 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:26:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <51087062.3020103@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com>

> I can remember my older relatives insisting they'd NEVER buy a Honda or
> Toyota because 'the Japanese built garbage'. I think the Koreans were
> just a few decades behind them.

In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default 
car purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s.

As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a 
decade later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a fair 
bit to dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well.

Honda went through a decade of even worse material quality than Toyota 
though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is too 
fat and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace for it.)

But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving 
behavior of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage. 
  Even truly hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well.

John.

From shannahquilts at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 21:39:54 2013
From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:39:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com>
	<5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7z=0moCoi_xaiwJK6uf0SUUjAoWUU-KVjuZtJxPh1x_2mkA@mail.gmail.com>

I got rid of my Acura TSX because I
got really tired of the electrical problems.

Having the stereo (radio or CD, didn't matter)
cut out intermittently just added insult to injury.

Acura replaced my navi system 3 times, to
no avail.  It still had problems.

Shannah

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:26 PM, John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> wrote:

> I can remember my older relatives insisting they'd NEVER buy a Honda or
>> Toyota because 'the Japanese built garbage'. I think the Koreans were
>> just a few decades behind them.
>>
>
> In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default car
> purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s.
>
> As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a decade
> later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a fair bit to
> dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well.
>
> Honda went through a decade of even worse material quality than Toyota
> though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is too fat
> and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace for it.)
>
> But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving behavior
> of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage.  Even truly
> hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well.
>
> John.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/**
> shannahquilts at gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com>

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 00:45:10 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:45:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com>
	<5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <5108CF86.301@gmail.com>

My mom and sister-in-law both had Acura TLs.

Maybe the worst cabin wear I've seen in a car since...well, I can't 
remember when. The dash cracked, the trim wore through, all the surfaces 
besides the seats looked wretched less than a year in. Man that car wore 
bad. They have this fake aluminum trim that looked good for about a 
week. I spent the last year of that car's life trying to find the 
replacement trim parts because it looked so bad.

Terrible gas mileage for its other factors. I was always surprised about 
that. For how fast it slurped petrochemicals, I would expect it to be A 
LOT faster. It wasn't a slug, but it never impressed me.

And for as big as it was outside, it always felt cramped inside.

On the other hand, I thought it looked great from the outside, and they 
definitely got the exhaust note right. But I won't be looking at any 
Acuras pretty much ever. Good-looking and -sounding car I thought. But 
I'd never buy or recommend one.

On 1/29/2013 8:26 PM, John Miller wrote:
> In California Toyota took over the Chevrolet-position as the 'default 
> car purchase of the car-ignorant' somewhere in the '80s.
>
> As far as I'm concerned Honda kinda elbowed them to second-banana a 
> decade later and Toyota's never really caught up, though there's a 
> fair bit to dislike about some of Honda's recent products as well.
>
> Honda went through a decade of even worse material quality than Toyota 
> though they've mostly recovered from that, and the current Civic is 
> too fat and too weird (and I think it's suffered in the marketplace 
> for it.)
>
> But Honda usually manages to put a coat of polish on the driving 
> behavior of their products that most other manufacturers can't manage. 
>  Even truly hideous, ugly Hondas and Acuras usually drive really well.

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 22:24:10 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:24:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5108CF86.301@gmail.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com>
	<5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com> <5108CF86.301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5108AE7A.9080802@milleredp.com>

> Maybe the worst cabin wear I've seen in a car since...well, I can't
> remember when. The dash cracked, the trim wore through, all the surfaces
> besides the seats looked wretched less than a year in. Man that car wore
> bad. They have this fake aluminum trim that looked good for about a
> week. I spent the last year of that car's life trying to find the
> replacement trim parts because it looked so bad.

The funny thing is...and I hate to put it this way...most of what we 
have to complain about 'Japanese' cars is a function of their now being 
built in the US (or at least North America) with parts from the same 
suppliers that serve the Detroit makes.

John.

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 29 22:35:01 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:35:01 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related...
Message-ID: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>

...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's sanity.

First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do 
sleepovers but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed 
might be a good idea.  Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust:

http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/bunkbed.jpg

Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the 
deep end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets to 
fill the grubbily underutilized space under his workbench:

http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/shopcabs.jpg

And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over the 
last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech network 
serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, then came the 
'86 Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly free...) and 
today I picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe from a fellow 
local Lion who, after a couple hours of chat about his past career, 
turned out to have been (as nearly as I can peg it) my older 
(now-deceased) brother's junior high school metal shop teacher nearly 
fifty years ago.

John.

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Tue Jan 29 23:11:22 2013
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:11:22 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related...
In-Reply-To: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>
References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <5108B98A.9050006@frontier.com>

Nice work; now we need to see the Shopbot in action.  I've been thinking 
about getting one for several years.

The Logan should be a nice lathe; I had a 9" model that I used for a 
number of years before I sold it for a 12" Grizzly.  Did you get the QC 
with it too?


On 1/29/2013 9:35 PM, John Miller wrote:
> ...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's 
> sanity.
>
> First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do 
> sleepovers but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed 
> might be a good idea.  Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust:
>
> http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/bunkbed.jpg
>
> Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the 
> deep end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets 
> to fill the grubbily underutilized space under his workbench:
>
> http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/shopcabs.jpg
>
> And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over 
> the last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech 
> network serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, 
> then came the '86 Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly 
> free...) and today I picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe 
> from a fellow local Lion who, after a couple hours of chat about his 
> past career, turned out to have been (as nearly as I can peg it) my 
> older (now-deceased) brother's junior high school metal shop teacher 
> nearly fifty years ago.
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From shannahquilts at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 23:19:12 2013
From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:19:12 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related...
In-Reply-To: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>
References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7z=0CN_wuh9hXKamEmjzFN3zQL-xPfe+o7qx=Q8boL59JKg@mail.gmail.com>

I love the bunk bed: that looks really nice!

I can think of several projects I'd love to do
on one of those.

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:35 PM, John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> wrote:

> ...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's sanity.
>
> First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do sleepovers
> but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed might be a good
> idea.  Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust:
>
> http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/**image/misc/bunkbed.jpg<http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/bunkbed.jpg>
>
> Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the deep
> end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets to fill
> the grubbily underutilized space under his workbench:
>
> http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/**image/misc/shopcabs.jpg<http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/shopcabs.jpg>
>
> And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over the
> last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech network
> serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, then came the
> '86 Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly free...) and today
> I picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe from a fellow local
> Lion who, after a couple hours of chat about his past career, turned out to
> have been (as nearly as I can peg it) my older (now-deceased) brother's
> junior high school metal shop teacher nearly fifty years ago.
>
> John.
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/**
> shannahquilts at gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com>

From nick at landform.co.uk  Wed Jan 30 01:30:20 2013
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:30:20 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related...
In-Reply-To: <5108B98A.9050006@frontier.com>
References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com> <5108B98A.9050006@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <5108DA1C.9030805@landform.co.uk>

Dave C wrote:
> Nice work; now we need to see the Shopbot in action.  I've been 
> thinking about getting one for several years.
>
> The Logan should be a nice lathe; I had a 9" model that I used for a 
> number of years before I sold it for a 12" Grizzly.  Did you get the 
> QC with it too?

I could learn to live with a setup like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMvy1WIiqMI

Particularly like the joint welding at 0:17.

Nick Brearley

From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 05:04:32 2013
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:04:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] camry hybrids
In-Reply-To: <5108AE7A.9080802@milleredp.com>
References: <2eae28c9.3cb347.13c8414d122.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CAAy7z=19+LCROU=MQpuLb3vjUBCSfhOnRN1539XqAE2=UN5NMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5107F5E9.40705@gmail.com> <5107E5B8.1060101@milleredp.com>
	<5107EB4A.8050207@dfn.com>
	<df92ed31-8bf4-459d-8c89-9d7ab330a9c2@email.android.com>
	<5107F800.9010702@dfn.com> <5107FF20.3030803@milleredp.com>
	<51080559.8010509@dfn.com> <510809C8.3090005@milleredp.com>
	<00e101cdfe4c$4e22b740$ea6825c0$@cox.net> <51087062.3020103@gmail.com>
	<5108A0E8.3000004@milleredp.com> <5108CF86.301@gmail.com>
	<5108AE7A.9080802@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CP=Q=4CdnEZqA-iOSv6kpsOd3K-XYfmt+ANeV+Jt8Y+7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:24 AM, John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> wrote:
> The funny thing is...and I hate to put it this way...most of what we have to
> complain about 'Japanese' cars is a function of their now being built in the
> US (or at least North America) with parts from the same suppliers that serve
> the Detroit makes.


I would wager that each part is spec'ed separately, and that there are
different price points for each part and each end manufacturer.

From edvs at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 30 08:59:16 2013
From: edvs at yahoo.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:59:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop hi
Message-ID: <1359561556.39944.androidMobile@web140703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

hey have a look http://bit.ly/WQfXpe

Ed

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Jan 30 09:06:01 2013
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:06:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related...
In-Reply-To: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>
References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGO3n_H0-JNvqy3NTMLQ-W-C_Ludsom2eadmJfL6RsPrGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

Wow!  Great message.  Impressed with the bunkbed in particular.  that
looks really well done.

And you've got some kickass friends there... My free deals aren't
anywhere near as good.  :-)

Mark

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:35 AM, John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> wrote:
> ...having access to a Shopbot CNC router can be dangerous to one's sanity.
>
> First the (7yo) daughter suggests that, well, she'd like to do sleepovers
> but that really means she needs more room and a bunk bed might be a good
> idea.  Mommy agrees so Daddy's sent off to make sawdust:
>
> http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/bunkbed.jpg
>
> Along the way, Daddy concludes that since he's already fallen off the deep
> end building a five-drawer chest he may as well do some cabinets to fill the
> grubbily underutilized space under his workbench:
>
> http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/shopcabs.jpg
>
> And, the old saying goes that things happen in threes, at least over the
> last week free stuff happened that way, first was a Systech network
> serial-port server from a friend cleaning out his shelves, then came the '86
> Celica (turns out to need a fuel pump, so not truly free...) and today I
> picked up a clean but quite old 10x36 Logan lathe from a fellow local Lion
> who, after a couple hours of chat about his past career, turned out to have
> been (as nearly as I can peg it) my older (now-deceased) brother's junior
> high school metal shop teacher nearly fifty years ago.
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Wed Jan 30 12:11:27 2013
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:11:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] At the risk of bringing up something shop-related...
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7z=0CN_wuh9hXKamEmjzFN3zQL-xPfe+o7qx=Q8boL59JKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5108B105.9090208@milleredp.com>
	<CAAy7z=0CN_wuh9hXKamEmjzFN3zQL-xPfe+o7qx=Q8boL59JKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5109705F.5050209@milleredp.com>

On 1/29/2013 10:19 PM, Shannah Miller wrote:
> I love the bunk bed: that looks really nice!
>
> I can think of several projects I'd love to do
> on one of those.

This was the first time I'd ever done anything like that, it's mostly 
3/4in plywood routed out on the Shopbot at Techshop in Menlo Park, glued 
and screwed together.

As with any such first-project, I made some mistakes in all of this, the 
drawers came out just a little too wide and I had to break out the 
router and notch the bottoms of the sides for track clearance.  I got 
some of the mounting holes in the bed frames in the wrong places, so if 
you look around the edges of the mattress from underneath you see a 
couple unused holes.  And the finish could have come out a little 
smoother, really what it probably needed was going over the last coat 
with 2000-grit which I didn't do.

Daughter got the full-extension Blum tracks ($24 a set) but Daddy's shop 
cabinets had to make do with the simpler 3/4-extension Blum side-mounts 
($5 a set).

I decided the upper side rail wasn't quite tall enough (industry 
standards say minimum 5in above the mattress and that's what I've got 
but it just doesn't feel like enough to me) and it needs another 
hand-hold for the ladder, so I made another upper rail to fit inside the 
existing one that'll extend the rail up another 2.5in and add a handle 
at the ladder end.  And the steps in the plywood are just fine for the 
7yo gymnast but Mommy and Daddy's feet are too tender so I've cut a set 
of smile-shaped pieces to add to the ladder to widen the steps.  This is 
all sitting in the garage waiting for me to sand and finish it.

If anyone wants the drawings I'll put the DXFs up, but you assume all 
risks for doing anything with using them...

Once you figure out how to lay out rabbets and dadoes with the right 
depths for the material you're using then the whole world becomes a 
cabinet box, in addition to the shop cabinets (it's really nice to stick 
a 1/16in drill bit in the Shopbot and have it run around and punch all 
18-24 drawer-track mounting holes in EXACTLY the right places) a 7'6" 
practice balance beam for the daughter ends up being a very long, 
narrow, shallow cabinet box wrapped in EPDM foam from McMaster-Carr and 
a ten-year-old marine vinyl leftover dragged out of the attic.

Then there's the 8-cell storage cubby for daughter's homework which 
doesn't come out any cheaper to do yourself than buying something from 
Ikea but at least you can size it to fit exactly where you want it.

Was moving my rearend collection (the assembled ones consisting of a 
Toyota T-code 6.7, a Mustang II Ford 8in and a '64 Galaxie Ford 9in, 
plus a 9in Versailles housing) around to be able to get the trailer out 
to drag home the lathe and the Eureka! bulb went on, so I now have a 
cutfile for a side piece for an axle-storage rack, one sheet of 3/4in 
BCX, two 8ft studs, and some paint and they'll be up and out of the way.

John.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Jan 30 18:00:54 2013
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:00:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
Message-ID: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>

Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of
being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate
unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
forever counter, so it is a possibility.

One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the
sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?

Concrete is out, way too much work.

There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.

Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?

thanks,

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 30 19:27:10 2013
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:27:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net>

Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you 
considered a granite overlay?  See 
http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample.  I can't speak to 
this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were a 
good bit cheaper than solid granite.

We ended up moving instead and I definitely like my current granite 
counters over the laminate ones at the old house.  If I were doing it my 
way and budget wasn't a big concern, I'd get engineered stone like 
Silestone or Ceaserstone for durability and not needing to be sealed 
like granite.

You could also look at tile.  Whatever you have, I would definitely have 
a good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint.

My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff.

Brian


On 1/30/2013 5:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of
> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate
> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>
> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the
> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>
> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>
> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>
> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Wed Jan 30 19:41:20 2013
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:41:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5109D9D0.3040208@snet.net>

We considered tile and that turned out to be our second choice once we 
thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean.

We settled on granite and fortunately found a particular piece we liked 
that was near the bottom end of the price range.  I suggest you check 
some installers who have the granite in stock so you can see and touch. 
You might be surprised as we were that it was not exorbitantly  priced.

On 1/30/2013 9:27 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
> Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you 
> considered a granite overlay?  See 
> http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample.  I can't speak to 
> this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were 
> a good bit cheaper than solid granite.
>
> We ended up moving instead and I definitely like my current granite 
> counters over the laminate ones at the old house.  If I were doing it 
> my way and budget wasn't a big concern, I'd get engineered stone like 
> Silestone or Ceaserstone for durability and not needing to be sealed 
> like granite.
>
> You could also look at tile.  Whatever you have, I would definitely 
> have a good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint.
>
> My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On 1/30/2013 5:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
>> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
>> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, 
>> instead of
>> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use 
>> laminate
>> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
>> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>>
>> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut 
>> out the
>> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>>
>> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>>
>> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>>
>> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>>
>> thanks,
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/james.f.juhas at snet.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jan 30 21:48:06 2013
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:48:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <5109D9D0.3040208@snet.net>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net> <5109D9D0.3040208@snet.net>
Message-ID: <5109F786.8020504@xxiii.com>

On 1/30/2013 9:41 PM, Jim Juhas wrote:
> We considered tile and that turned out to be our second choice once we
> thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean.

True That! I bought my place in 2001 with 4x4" tile countertops, and 
thought they looked cool and classy, and had previously seen them in 
some supposedly high end homes. They are a MAJOR PITA to clean. On the 
positive side: they are actually [usually] cheaper to install then 
laminate. That should tell you something. I am ready to tear the crap 
out and throw down cheap formica before I scrub grout again!!!

> We settled on granite and fortunately found a particular piece we liked
> that was near the bottom end of the price range.  I suggest you check

Granite is top of the price range, but can be stained and supposedly 
needs some kinda sealant on it periodically. I was gonna go with one of 
the synthetic or "quartz" intermediate ones, like Corian or Silstone, or 
-- can't remember all the brands now, but if you've been looking you know.

Got divorced instead and had to pay to keep the place (fair deal, but 
still sux) so tile it is  :(

-wayne

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Jan 30 22:02:32 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:02:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2071278236.217903.1359608552991.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Kemp" <bk13 at earthlink.net>
> To: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:27:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
> Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you
> considered a granite overlay? See
> http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample. I can't speak to
> this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were
> a
> good bit cheaper than solid granite.


We went with granitetransformations. B Grey material with sea-shells embedded.
B They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes. B Fits right over the old
Formica and looks great. B No problems with heat, and we don't have to seal
it.

Phil Ethier

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 22:42:56 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:42:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <2071278236.217903.1359608552991.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2071278236.217903.1359608552991.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <510A0460.7000400@gmail.com>

What are the seams like, Phil? Does it look like a normal granite 
countertop, or is it more like those 'granite' counterpanes I see that 
are really floor tiles? My wife would like granite counters, but I've 
been lobbying for 4x4 tile on cost. If the granite transformations look 
like the traditional granite she wants, I'll cave.

On 1/31/2013 12:02 AM, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> We went with granitetransformations. B Grey material with sea-shells 
> embedded. B They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes. B Fits right 
> over the old Formica and looks great. B No problems with heat, and we 
> don't have to seal it. Phil Ethier

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 23:05:00 2013
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:05:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com>

On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

> Still reeling from the price of
>
> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>
>

Don't forget you can use more than one material. Bit of stone around the sink,
bit of marble for a baking work area, laminate every where else, say. Also
soap stone can be worked with pretty normal shop tools, so if you've got the
time....

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jan 31 06:45:25 2013
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:45:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CB182E34-FDFB-4099-A933-8865BAE65D6F@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:27 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:

> Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good,

This is a new install; old kitchen was gutted.
>
> You could also look at tile.  Whatever you have, I would definitely have a
good bead of kitchen silicone caulk around the sink/counter joint.

My first choice actually was tile. Rectified porcelain is $5/sf and will allow
1/16" grout lines. There were 2 issues- corners/edges and making them look
neat, which was solvable by Schluter products, but started approaching $1000
and a ton of work. And the other issue was the undermount sink and keeping the
sharp inside corners of the counter clean where it'd rest on the much softer
corners of the sink. Still an option, but if I can get a solid surface for
$1500... (rapidly realizng this is unrealistic).

1 cm thick Porcelain "sheets" are becoming common in Europe to use for
counters, but haven't made it here yet. They make 24" square tiles, but I need
24.5" for the wall counter and 25" for the island, and with the proper tools I
could route a curve to match the radius of the sink corners. I'm guessing I
need a wet saw of some type to do that...

>
> My concern with the resin would be scratches and melting from hot stuff.

Yea, heat resistant to 355F, which isn't that hot, really. I'm not the type to
dig out a trivet when I'm holding a hot pan, and I'm certainly not going to
remember to do it beforehand :-)

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 31 06:54:25 2013
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:54:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>,
	<2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W3477032DCE0DA0EDCD296B9A1D0@phx.gbl>

I'll put my vote in for Quartz, specifically the new LG Viatera that Home
Depot carries.  Many attractive varieties not including what's in the store,
super smooth surface, non-porous, anti-microbial, heat resistant... and there
there were some promotions that really helped knock off  hundreds of dollars
from the new cabinets and countertops.  There were two price points $44/sq. ft
for ours, and ~$90/sq. ft. I think, so it can be somewhat affordable.
We should be getting ours installed on Tuesday, though the wait has been
longer than normal.

> From: dmscheidt at gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:05:00 -0600
> To: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
>
> > Still reeling from the price of
> >
> > Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
> >
> >
>
> Don't forget you can use more than one material. Bit of stone around the
sink,
> bit of marble for a baking work area, laminate every where else, say. Also
> soap stone can be worked with pretty normal shop tools, so if you've got
the
> time....
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com

From KVacek at Ameritech.net  Thu Jan 31 08:03:17 2013
From: KVacek at Ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:03:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <SNT127-W3477032DCE0DA0EDCD296B9A1D0@phx.gbl>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>,
	<2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com>
	<SNT127-W3477032DCE0DA0EDCD296B9A1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net>

Granite doesn't have to be either expensive or difficult to care for.  It
really depends on the specific granite you choose.

We heard all the stuff about sealing and staining, and I didn't even like
granite before we got it.  We picked ours based on what we liked, after at
least a year of looking, and it turned out to be an excellent choice as well
as a great deal.

First - sealing.  That really applies most to marble, soapstone, and
limestone - it's way overplayed by the purveyors of alternative products.
Only some granite stains easily, and generally only the really light and
porous types.  And many grades are resin-impregnated for strength and stain
resistance.  We didn't see that fact played up anywhere, and I still don't.
How often do you see stains on granite monuments, on granite pavement, etc.
etc.?  Some outdoor granite items that you see every day has been exposed
for a hundred (or two) years with no staining.  You can bet that few
monuments or roads have ever been sealed.  Of course nobody cooks in the
cemetery, but the birds, plants, pollution, and weather have their way with
outdoor granite every day.

We chose Napoleon Gold, which is quite light-colored and looks very porous,
but (ours at least) was resin-impregnated by the mill after being quarried
and sawed into slabs, and it's quite impervious.  In addition, the installer
(an old friend) and I spent a couple of hours working sealer into the
counters (puddles of sealer spread by our bare hands) immediately when he
installed it - in 2005.  We've never sealed it again and have never had a
stain.  I keep asking him if we need to seal it again, but he says no.

We're not particularly fastidious.  At all.  Jill and the girls (me too)
have left everything on the counter - tomato products, oily tomato-based
sauces (which stain Tupperware immediately), red wine, Angostura bitters
(that stuff stains EVERYTHING), you name it.  No stains, even when we've
found a spill that ran under something and was missed for days.  We usually
try to remember to put down a towel next to the cooktop when frying to keep
hot grease spatters off it, but it's still had lots of hot grease on it over
the past 8 years.  Slight darkening from cooking oil is supposed to be
fairly common with certain stones, but ours hasn't even done that.

We routinely put hot pots and pans on it - enough that I worry about warping
the pan sometimes.  I wonder about doing that with the
plastic-plus-quartz/granite/glass products like Cambria, Silestone, etc.
They're stone/glass/etc. chips held together by polymer.  Sounds like
something that might be hurt by heat.

Want to break up a frozen-solid bag of ice?  Whack it on the granite counter
top.  Not going to hurt the granite.  Cutting directly on the granite is
rough on the knife but it's not going to scratch the granite one bit.
Bakers like to roll out dough on granite (or marble).  Makes a decent
surface plate for precision measurements too, when Jill's not around... 

Uba Tuba (a really common and beautiful dark-green/black granite) can be
under $25 per square foot installed.  And try to stain dark green and black.
Our granite guy friend now also offers really economical granite from China.
Some of that is sub-$20 per square foot, installed.

YMMV
Karl

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 08:10:19 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:10:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>,
	<2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com>
	<SNT127-W3477032DCE0DA0EDCD296B9A1D0@phx.gbl>
	<00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <510A895B.6090709@gmail.com>

On 1/31/2013 10:03 AM, Karl Vacek wrote:
> Makes a decent
> surface plate for precision measurements too, when Jill's not around...

Heh. I mentioned that once a few years ago. I'm not to do that, ever, 
and she'll know if I do it.

The really scary part of that was that I'm pretty sure she would know. I 
suppose I'm really married now.

> Uba Tuba (a really common and beautiful dark-green/black granite) can be
> under $25 per square foot installed.  And try to stain dark green and black.
> Our granite guy friend now also offers really economical granite from China.
> Some of that is sub-$20 per square foot, installed.

It's cheaper to ship granite over the Pacific than it is to use domestic 
stuff? That's impressive.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan 31 08:45:47 2013
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:45:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <510A895B.6090709@gmail.com>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com>
	<SNT127-W3477032DCE0DA0EDCD296B9A1D0@phx.gbl>
	<00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net>
	<510A895B.6090709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9XAPoduOPZKkdkrD1Paaxz41Ny8xWGgU7d=hZL3YTVZHw@mail.gmail.com>

A lot of cemetery monuments are made in China, and the shop here just adds
the lettering.

Doug

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>wrote:

> It's cheaper to ship granite over the Pacific than it is to use domestic
> stuff? That's impressive.
>
> _

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 08:55:45 2013
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:55:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <510A9401.7080403@comcast.net>

On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of
> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate
> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>
> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the
> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>
> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>
> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>
> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>
> thanks,

Redid our counters with granite floor tiles.  Was two decades ago when 
tiles were cheaper.  We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a 
square foot.  Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find 
some bargains.  Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in 
mortar.  Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the edge 
and laid the tiles on top.  I used a narrow gap and grout that closely 
matched the tiles.  Also deliberately choose a fine grain granite so the 
tiles would not stand out.  Sealed there hasn't be much grout staining 
except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good cleaning that.  A 
modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and island, was under $700.


>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jan 31 10:09:46 2013
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:09:46 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <2071278236.217903.1359608552991.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2071278236.217903.1359608552991.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <DB279765F8A74E088974D3E49A1AABE2@StevePC>

We're just about to make the same decision
(Granite Transformations).  Personally, from an
engineerbs perspective, Ibd prefer the removal and
replacement approach but my wife is enthralled
with the b1-day aspectb of the change plus webre
going to be selling the house soon and I wonbt be
living with the bcover-upb.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From: pethier at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:02 PM
To: Brian Kemp
Cc: Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Kemp" <bk13 at earthlink.net>
> To: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:27:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
> Jim - If your existing counters are structurally good, have you
> considered a granite overlay? See
> http://www.granitetransformations.com/ as a sample. I can't speak to
> this specific vender other than seeing their advertisements. They were
> a
> good bit cheaper than solid granite.


We went with granitetransformations. B Grey material with sea-shells
embedded.
B They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes. B Fits right over the old
Formica and looks great. B No problems with heat, and we don't have to seal
it.

Phil Ethier
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Jan 31 10:19:55 2013
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:19:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <510A895B.6090709@gmail.com>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>,
	<2EF90E32-6AAC-402D-BCE5-09C44CA7BFDF@gmail.com>
	<SNT127-W3477032DCE0DA0EDCD296B9A1D0@phx.gbl>
	<00c901cdffc4$1a3164d0$4e942e70$@Ameritech.net>
	<510A895B.6090709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1301311209280.29862@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013, Scott wrote:
> It's cheaper to ship granite over the Pacific than it is to use domestic 
> stuff? That's impressive.

    Virtually all granite slabs are imported, either from Italy, Brazil, 
China, Turkey, Norway, or one of a few other places.  The only domestic I 
found was Dakota Mahogany, although I think there are a few others from 
the Dakotas as well.

    I found some that was quarried in Brazil, shipped to Italy for
processing, and being sold in a warehouse here outside Chicago.  And it 
wasn't particularly expensive.  In fact, most of what is available around 
here is processed in Italy, regardless of where it was quarried.

    When you consider what is involved in extracting that stone from the 
earth, slicing it into 3cm slabs, finishing those, transporting it to the 
buyer's house, and then cutting and installing it... $30 to $50 per foot 
starts to sound amazingly cheap.

--
  David Hillman

From rkg at teleport.com  Thu Jan 31 10:34:14 2013
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:34:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <510A9401.7080403@comcast.net>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<510A9401.7080403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <510AAB16.7020804@teleport.com>

FWIW, if you wanted to go the granite tile route, you might want to 
consider watching at your local Habitat for Humanity restore - sometimes 
some fairly large quantities show up there, and its hard to beat the 
prices (around here I think its like $2/ ft^2 or less...)

I recently rehabbed a condo and saved a couple of grand on materials 
going that route..

Best,

rkg
(Richard George)
On 1/31/2013 7:55 AM, Peter J. Thomas wrote:
> On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
>> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
>> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, 
>> instead of
>> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use 
>> laminate
>> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
>> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>>
>> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut 
>> out the
>> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>>
>> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>>
>> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>>
>> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>>
>> thanks,
>
> Redid our counters with granite floor tiles.  Was two decades ago when 
> tiles were cheaper.  We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a 
> square foot.  Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find 
> some bargains.  Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in 
> mortar.  Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the 
> edge and laid the tiles on top.  I used a narrow gap and grout that 
> closely matched the tiles.  Also deliberately choose a fine grain 
> granite so the tiles would not stand out.  Sealed there hasn't be much 
> grout staining except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good 
> cleaning that.  A modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and 
> island, was under $700.

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 11:04:30 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:04:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <510A0460.7000400@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1481370318.225165.1359655470432.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott" <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:42:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?


> What are the seams like, Phil? 

What seams?  I don't see any.  I don't know how they did that.

> Does it look like a normal granite
> countertop, or is it more like those 'granite' counterpanes I see that
> are really floor tiles? 

Not tiles.  The material looks seamless including all the way around the two 45s we have for the big bevel at the front edge.

> My wife would like granite counters, but I've
> been lobbying for 4x4 tile on cost. If the granite transformations
> look
> like the traditional granite she wants,

Take her to their showroom.  I think she will be impressed.  Sue originally wanted granite look (we have a wheeled island from Fleet Farm [really!] with a slab of granite on top), and the granitetranformations looked good, but when she saw the sea-shells she had to have them.

> I'll cave.

I didn't care.  She doesn't get to design my shop, so she can do what she wants with her kitchen.

> On 1/31/2013 12:02 AM, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> > We went with granitetransformations.  Grey material with sea-shells
> > embedded.  They have a kind of 3D iridescence Sue likes.  Fits
> > right
> > over the old Formica and looks great.  No problems with heat, and
> > we
> > don't have to seal it. Phil Ethier

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 11:07:02 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:07:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <DB279765F8A74E088974D3E49A1AABE2@StevePC>
Message-ID: <379122626.225223.1359655622827.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
> To: pethier at comcast.net, "Brian Kemp" <bk13 at earthlink.net>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:09:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
> We're just about to make the same decision
> (Granite Transformations).B  Personally, from an
> engineerbs perspective, Ibd prefer the removal and
> replacement approach but my wife is enthralled
> with the b
1-day aspectb
 of the change plus webre
> going to be selling the house soon and I wonbt be
> living with the b
cover-upb
.

Trust me.  Ours does not look second-best to a removal.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 11:15:32 2013
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:15:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <510A9401.7080403@comcast.net>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<510A9401.7080403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <510AB4C4.7000104@comcast.net>

On 1/31/2013 10:55 AM, Peter J. Thomas wrote:
> On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
>> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
>> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, 
>> instead of
>> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use 
>> laminate
>> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
>> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>>
>> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut 
>> out the
>> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>>
>> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>>
>> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>>
>> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>>
>> thanks,
>
> Redid our counters with granite floor tiles.  Was two decades ago when 
> tiles were cheaper.  We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a 
> square foot.  Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find 
> some bargains.  Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in 
> mortar.  Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the 
> edge and laid the tiles on top.  I used a narrow gap and grout that 
> closely matched the tiles.  Also deliberately choose a fine grain 
> granite so the tiles would not stand out.  Sealed there hasn't be much 
> grout staining except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good 
> cleaning that.  A modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and 
> island, was under $700.

BTW here is a Facebook photo.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/34996_10200222482028850_190707104_n.jpg

>
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 11:22:11 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:22:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <510A9401.7080403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <57107470.225525.1359656531857.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> Redid our counters with granite floor tiles. Was two decades ago when
> tiles were cheaper. We found a bargain on a nice tiles under 4$ a
> square foot. Prices are higher now but shopping around you might find
> some bargains. Put down 3/4 plywood and layer of cement board set in
> mortar. Bought a cheap tile saw (< $100) and ripped strips for the
> edge
> and laid the tiles on top. I used a narrow gap and grout that closely
> matched the tiles. Also deliberately choose a fine grain granite so
> the
> tiles would not stand out. Sealed there hasn't be much grout staining
> except around the coffee maker and bleach does a good cleaning that. A
> modest kitchen, about 22 linear feet including and island, was under
> $700.

Sue and I made a countertop for the new cabinets we put in the dining room.  I fitted the backer-board and she set the tile.  She does not let me touch tile, plastering or paint.  She loves mixed stone-and-glass tiles and was looking for a place to use them. I don't think I'd like this for a kitchen, though.

She wanted me to buy her a new miter saw for Christmas just so she could make the miter on the wood edging.

I'm going to try to remember to shoot the kitchen counter for a shop-talker who asked.  I should shoot this too.  I'll post on my Flickr site tonight, if I remember to do it...


Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 12:12:01 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:12:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <1481370318.225165.1359655470432.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1481370318.225165.1359655470432.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <510AC201.7000906@gmail.com>

On 1/31/2013 1:04 PM, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> What seams?  I don't see any.  I don't know how they did that.

Most excellent.

> Take her to their showroom.  I think she will be impressed.  Sue originally wanted granite look (we have a wheeled island from Fleet Farm [really!] with a slab of granite on top), and the granitetranformations looked good, but when she saw the sea-shells she had to have them.

I'll do that.

> I didn't care.  She doesn't get to design my shop, so she can do what she wants with her kitchen.

I don't care about the design, I care about paying for it and cleaning 
it. I overheard her telling someone not too long ago how good she is at 
'cleaning as she goes' and how the kitchen is usually clean when she's 
done cooking.

She's right. But were one to videotape the house while she cooks, one 
might see someone else in the room too that actually does that cleaning. 
That someone doesn't want to pay for granite *and* have to scrub grout 
lines.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 12:15:13 2013
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:15:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com>

Jim,

I forgot to mention I'm about to take a crack at a DIY concrete 
countertop for the old house. I'll post if it goes well. I thought it 
was too much work, too, but I just can't turn down the (lack of) cost.  
I'm hoping this granite transformations covers the other house. That'd 
be very nice.

Scott

On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead of
> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate
> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>
> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out the
> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>
> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>
> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>
> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>
> thanks,

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 12:56:46 2013
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:56:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOEriikoQUERTOXGAUFYWSCAn1qf5tv0qzUdEZ9uAfnGkfPMBg@mail.gmail.com>

I have concrete for the counter we put in when we finished our basement.

I think it came out really well:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082 at N02/7846083560/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082 at N02/7846083666/in/photostream/

For a piece that small, it could be poured and polished elsewhere and then
installed.

-Paul

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I forgot to mention I'm about to take a crack at a DIY concrete countertop
> for the old house. I'll post if it goes well. I thought it was too much
> work, too, but I just can't turn down the (lack of) cost.  I'm hoping this
> granite transformations covers the other house. That'd be very nice.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On 1/30/2013 8:00 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>
>> Still reeling from the price of granite/soapstone/etc, I was researching
>> alternatives. I already have an apron-front sink, which acts like an
>> undermount but actually is supported on the sides at the bottom, instead
>> of
>> being clamped to the counter underside. Still, I can't really use laminate
>> unless I work at waterproofing the edge where the sink is. This isn't a
>> forever counter, so it is a possibility.
>>
>> One material that struck my eye was phenolic resin. I'd need to cut out
>> the
>> sink hole; is it easily worked with carbide blades or is it a pain?
>>
>> Concrete is out, way too much work.
>>
>> There's too much wood in the kitchen already for butcher block.
>>
>> Any other reasonably priced alternatives you've used (or heard of)?
>>
>> thanks,

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jan 31 15:09:38 2013
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:09:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <CAOEriikoQUERTOXGAUFYWSCAn1qf5tv0qzUdEZ9uAfnGkfPMBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com>
	<CAOEriikoQUERTOXGAUFYWSCAn1qf5tv0qzUdEZ9uAfnGkfPMBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83E19F49-DBC0-4463-840D-25CDA5F4B519@groupwbench.org>

THAT'S CONCRETE?!?!?!

I had no idea. You have totally converted me :-)

Not decided on it yet, but the possibilities....

jim

On Jan 31, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:

> I have concrete for the counter we put in when we finished our basement.
> 
> I think it came out really well:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082 at N02/7846083560/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082 at N02/7846083666/in/photostream/
> 
> For a piece that small, it could be poured and polished elsewhere and then
> installed.
> 
> -Paul

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 16:10:14 2013
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:10:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <83E19F49-DBC0-4463-840D-25CDA5F4B519@groupwbench.org>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com>
	<CAOEriikoQUERTOXGAUFYWSCAn1qf5tv0qzUdEZ9uAfnGkfPMBg@mail.gmail.com>
	<83E19F49-DBC0-4463-840D-25CDA5F4B519@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <CAOEriikg1qaNCPYVY-vJRboKokY2nWhtr+L_yic2QU8BDXjmGA@mail.gmail.com>

I should have given more details.  It's concrete that's mixed with a fairly
coarse aggregate, and then the voids are filled with the black epoxy you
see.  You can make concrete just about any color you want, and you can get
different color/size aggregate to really spice it up.  A friend did
concrete counters with ribbons of copper in it.  I've also seen various
colors of glass pebbles or chips used.

FWIW, the material cost of the counter in the picture was ~$100.  But my
brother pours a lot of stuff like this as a hobby and already had the
expensive equipment (vibrator, diamond wheels for the angle grinder, etc).

I just wanted to put it out there because I saw people dismissing concrete
and I wanted people see that it could come out pretty nice.

-Paul


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>wrote:

> THAT'S CONCRETE?!?!?!
>
> I had no idea. You have totally converted me :-)
>
> Not decided on it yet, but the possibilities....
>
> jim
>
> On Jan 31, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
>
> > I have concrete for the counter we put in when we finished our basement.
> >
> > I think it came out really well:
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082 at N02/7846083560/
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/24556082 at N02/7846083666/in/photostream/
> >
> > For a piece that small, it could be poured and polished elsewhere and
> then
> > installed.
> >
> > -Paul

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jan 31 16:40:48 2013
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:40:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <CAOEriikg1qaNCPYVY-vJRboKokY2nWhtr+L_yic2QU8BDXjmGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<510AC2C1.5090906@gmail.com>
	<CAOEriikoQUERTOXGAUFYWSCAn1qf5tv0qzUdEZ9uAfnGkfPMBg@mail.gmail.com>
	<83E19F49-DBC0-4463-840D-25CDA5F4B519@groupwbench.org>
	<CAOEriikg1qaNCPYVY-vJRboKokY2nWhtr+L_yic2QU8BDXjmGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12651FE6-0C9F-4F0F-A180-903F20B0C3A1@groupwbench.org>

Yep, I spent the afternoon reading about and looking at them, lights inside,
transparency using fiber optics, all kinds of crazy interesting stuff.

Girlfriend mentioned laying fossils and motorcycle parts in there. I'm trying
to figure out how to lay spent sprockets in there without it causing a catch
on the surface :-)

I also like the idea of using broken engine bits as surface aggregate. A play
on engine salad...

jim

On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:10 PM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:

> I should have given more details.  It's concrete that's mixed with a fairly
coarse aggregate, and then the voids are filled with the black epoxy you see.
You can make concrete just about any color you want, and you can get different
color/size aggregate to really spice it up.  A friend did concrete counters
with ribbons of copper in it.  I've also seen various colors of glass pebbles
or chips used.
>
> FWIW, the material cost of the counter in the picture was ~$100.  But my
brother pours a lot of stuff like this as a hobby and already had the
expensive equipment (vibrator, diamond wheels for the angle grinder, etc).
>
> I just wanted to put it out there because I saw people dismissing concrete
and I wanted people see that it could come out pretty nice.
>
> -Paul

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jan 31 17:02:52 2013
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:02:52 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <5109F786.8020504@xxiii.com>
References: <080CB27C-CD8D-4DAE-BA90-4DC901C61ACE@groupwbench.org>
	<5109D67E.8010003@earthlink.net> <5109D9D0.3040208@snet.net>
	<5109F786.8020504@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <510B062C.3030502@hornesystemstx.com>

Wayne,

If you like the looks of the tile and the grout is the only thing you 
don't like, there is an epoxy-based grout that is great. You have to dig 
out all the old grout and replace it, but after that you have no 
maintenance. I used it on several jobs, bathroom floor, shower floor and 
surround and kitchen counters, all with great results. The stuff I used 
came from Lowes and is made by Laticrete. It is not cheap, but for my 
uses it was fine. Laticrete has a calculator on their site that will 
help you figure out how much it will cost you. Be warned, the number of 
units they calculate will be 1/4 the number of units you buy at Lowes 
because the Lowe's packages are 1/4 unit. Each quarter unit is about 
$18. Be sure to clean up the haze as you go, this stuff is really hard 
to clean up later.

<shop content> If I had tile in my shop I would have used it there!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Wayne

> On 1/30/2013 9:41 PM, Jim Juhas wrote:
>> We considered tile and that turned out to be our second choice once we
>> thought about the issues of keeping the grout clean.
>
> True That! I bought my place in 2001 with 4x4" tile countertops, and 
> thought they looked cool and classy, and had previously seen them in 
> some supposedly high end homes. They are a MAJOR PITA to clean. On the 
> positive side: they are actually [usually] cheaper to install then 
> laminate. That should tell you something. I am ready to tear the crap 
> out and throw down cheap formica before I scrub grout again!!!
>
>> We settled on granite and fortunately found a particular piece we liked
>> that was near the bottom end of the price range.  I suggest you check
>
> Granite is top of the price range, but can be stained and supposedly 
> needs some kinda sealant on it periodically. I was gonna go with one 
> of the synthetic or "quartz" intermediate ones, like Corian or 
> Silstone, or -- can't remember all the brands now, but if you've been 
> looking you know.
>
> Got divorced instead and had to pay to keep the place (fair deal, but 
> still sux) so tile it is  :(
>
> -wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice & Text	5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 22:53:28 2013
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 05:53:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Alternative kitchen countertops?
In-Reply-To: <57107470.225525.1359656531857.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <51245844.238455.1359698008872.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Here are some snaps of my countertops.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433776569/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433777107/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433777631/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/8433766755/in/photostream/

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org


> Sue and I made a countertop for the new cabinets we put in the dining
> room. I fitted the backer-board and she set the tile. She does not let
> me touch tile, plastering or paint. She loves mixed stone-and-glass
> tiles and was looking for a place to use them. I don't think I'd like
> this for a kitchen, though.
> 
> She wanted me to buy her a new miter saw for Christmas just so she
> could make the miter on the wood edging.
> 
> I'm going to try to remember to shoot the kitchen counter for a
> shop-talker who asked. I should shoot this too. I'll post on my Flickr
> site tonight, if I remember to do it...
> 
> 
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
> 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
> 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
> 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
> pethier at comcast.net
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
> http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
> http://www.mnautox.com
> http://www.mntriumphs.org
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net