From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:08:54 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:08:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] First use for new multimeter Message-ID: <50930106.8040603@gmail.com> Not its first intended use, but it'll hopefully work for this too: My living room has a Home Depot/Hampton Bay ceiling fan. The fan has a wireless remote that operates the fan and the integrated light. The light has stopped working. I first thought it was the fluorescent bulb (a 9" circline), so I bought a new one. No fix. I also have a Hunter-brand fan that did this same thing, it turned out to be the wireless control module in the fan itself that quit working (which I cunningly diagnosed by buying a new control module and installing it). So, I bought a new control module for the Hampton Bay fan. Of course it's not that easy--on the Hunter fan, the receiver is an add-on that lives under the fan's trim 'bustle' that covers the ball that mounts the fan to the ceiling box. On the Hampton Bay, it's actually buried in the motor housing and if it's replaceable at all, it's going to require complete disassembly of the fan. So I thought...I've got this new (cheap H-F) multimeter I bought to use for some HVAC diagnostics, I'll bet I can see if there's electricity coming out of the fan to the bulb, and that will at least tell me before I take apart the fan if it is in fact the receiver unit. It might be...something else, after all (though probably not). Maybe I just have (several) bad bulbs. Or maybe the thing I'll be calling the ballast is bad. So anyone want to help me electrocute myself? I can get two different wire sets to diagnose--a pair (one black, one white) coming out of the fan housing and going into a circular thing that lives in the center of the circline bulb. Ah--I just read the instructions on the bulb--that's the ballast. I assume the power to the ballast is coming directly from the receiver/controller unit. If there's power there, I can assume the receiver is doing its job. Then from the ballast is a single plug that has four holes that plug onto the four prongs on the bulb. If there's power there, I just managed to buy several bad bulbs, or more likely, I have a intermittent issue which means I'll be just replacing the fan (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here). What i don't know is what kind and amount of voltage I'm looking for on my meter. A/C or D/C? How much should I want to see? I'm ruling out a bad wiring connection from the house wiring to the unit because the fan and the lights use the same power source from the house, and the fan works just fine. This really is the same set of symptoms that was cured by a new receiver unit on the other one, but man, that thing is sealed up tight. Thanks in advance. Scott From pat at hornesystemstx.com Thu Nov 1 19:09:00 2012 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:09:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] First use for new multimeter In-Reply-To: <50930106.8040603@gmail.com> References: <50930106.8040603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50931D2C.3050902@hornesystemstx.com> Scott, The voltage out of the receiver should be 120V AC. You can check it at that point. Another way to test it is to bypass the receiver and connect the ballast directly to power. As for the output of the ballast, I wouldn't mess with it. The voltage before the fluorescent lights is several thousand volts. This is much higher than the top range on your meter. Since you have already tried changing the lamp, I suspect that if the voltage coming out of the receiver is working that you have a bad ballast. Do you have another fixture that uses the same size bulb? If so, try swapping lamps. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Scott > Not its first intended use, but it'll hopefully work for this too: > > My living room has a Home Depot/Hampton Bay ceiling fan. The fan has a > wireless remote that operates the fan and the integrated light. The > light has stopped working. > > I first thought it was the fluorescent bulb (a 9" circline), so I > bought a new one. No fix. > > I also have a Hunter-brand fan that did this same thing, it turned out > to be the wireless control module in the fan itself that quit working > (which I cunningly diagnosed by buying a new control module and > installing it). > > So, I bought a new control module for the Hampton Bay fan. Of course > it's not that easy--on the Hunter fan, the receiver is an add-on that > lives under the fan's trim 'bustle' that covers the ball that mounts > the fan to the ceiling box. On the Hampton Bay, it's actually buried > in the motor housing and if it's replaceable at all, it's going to > require complete disassembly of the fan. > > So I thought...I've got this new (cheap H-F) multimeter I bought to > use for some HVAC diagnostics, I'll bet I can see if there's > electricity coming out of the fan to the bulb, and that will at least > tell me before I take apart the fan if it is in fact the receiver > unit. It might be...something else, after all (though probably not). > Maybe I just have (several) bad bulbs. Or maybe the thing I'll be > calling the ballast is bad. > > So anyone want to help me electrocute myself? I can get two different > wire sets to diagnose--a pair (one black, one white) coming out of the > fan housing and going into a circular thing that lives in the center > of the circline bulb. Ah--I just read the instructions on the > bulb--that's the ballast. I assume the power to the ballast is coming > directly from the receiver/controller unit. If there's power there, I > can assume the receiver is doing its job. Then from the ballast is a > single plug that has four holes that plug onto the four prongs on the > bulb. If there's power there, I just managed to buy several bad bulbs, > or more likely, I have a intermittent issue which means I'll be just > replacing the fan (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here). > > What i don't know is what kind and amount of voltage I'm looking for > on my meter. A/C or D/C? How much should I want to see? > > I'm ruling out a bad wiring connection from the house wiring to the > unit because the fan and the lights use the same power source from the > house, and the fan works just fine. This really is the same set of > symptoms that was cured by a new receiver unit on the other one, but > man, that thing is sealed up tight. > > Thanks in advance. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From bk13 at earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 20:58:06 2012 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:58:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] First use for new multimeter In-Reply-To: <50930106.8040603@gmail.com> References: <50930106.8040603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <509336BE.60301@earthlink.net> Scott - Easy thing first. Do you also have a pull chain that controls the light? Try that switch too. Someone might have switched it off that way instead of the remote. I expect this is not the case with anyone on this list, but the easy stuff sometimes works. The fans I've worked with typically have three power connections. The white is neutral, the black is the fan power, and the red or black with strip is the light. Brian On 11/1/2012 4:08 PM, Scott wrote: > Not its first intended use, but it'll hopefully work for this too: > > My living room has a Home Depot/Hampton Bay ceiling fan. The fan has a > wireless remote that operates the fan and the integrated light. The > light has stopped working. > > I first thought it was the fluorescent bulb (a 9" circline), so I > bought a new one. No fix. > > I also have a Hunter-brand fan that did this same thing, it turned out > to be the wireless control module in the fan itself that quit working > (which I cunningly diagnosed by buying a new control module and > installing it). > > So, I bought a new control module for the Hampton Bay fan. Of course > it's not that easy--on the Hunter fan, the receiver is an add-on that > lives under the fan's trim 'bustle' that covers the ball that mounts > the fan to the ceiling box. On the Hampton Bay, it's actually buried > in the motor housing and if it's replaceable at all, it's going to > require complete disassembly of the fan. > > So I thought...I've got this new (cheap H-F) multimeter I bought to > use for some HVAC diagnostics, I'll bet I can see if there's > electricity coming out of the fan to the bulb, and that will at least > tell me before I take apart the fan if it is in fact the receiver > unit. It might be...something else, after all (though probably not). > Maybe I just have (several) bad bulbs. Or maybe the thing I'll be > calling the ballast is bad. > > So anyone want to help me electrocute myself? I can get two different > wire sets to diagnose--a pair (one black, one white) coming out of the > fan housing and going into a circular thing that lives in the center > of the circline bulb. Ah--I just read the instructions on the > bulb--that's the ballast. I assume the power to the ballast is coming > directly from the receiver/controller unit. If there's power there, I > can assume the receiver is doing its job. Then from the ballast is a > single plug that has four holes that plug onto the four prongs on the > bulb. If there's power there, I just managed to buy several bad bulbs, > or more likely, I have a intermittent issue which means I'll be just > replacing the fan (feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here). > > What i don't know is what kind and amount of voltage I'm looking for > on my meter. A/C or D/C? How much should I want to see? > > I'm ruling out a bad wiring connection from the house wiring to the > unit because the fan and the lights use the same power source from the > house, and the fan works just fine. This really is the same set of > symptoms that was cured by a new receiver unit on the other one, but > man, that thing is sealed up tight. > > Thanks in advance. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From cavanadd at frontier.com Thu Nov 1 23:21:39 2012 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 22:21:39 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again Message-ID: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound right... From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Nov 2 07:41:14 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:41:14 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: <5093CD7A.1000504@xxiii.com> On 11/2/2012 1:21 AM, Dave C wrote: > However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 > full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts > store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of > generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the > ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. The ex-wife has a Scion TC with the same 2.2L 4 that Toyota puts in the Camary and probably other stuff. They spec'ed 0W20 for use in all climates except the hottest part of summer. IIRC, I ran 0W20 in the winter & 5W30 in the summer. Castrol sells 0W20 in the regular GTX, and their synthetic blend. I believe there are two reasons why manufacturers are going to super light oils: 1) they help make the EPA gas mileage numbers test better, possibly at the expense of higher engine wear. 2) Engines really are built to MUCH tighter tolerances & clearances then they used to be. Cylinder & bearing clearances of only a few the-thousandths are common. -W From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Fri Nov 2 07:44:37 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:44:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: I'm no expert, but I think they go to the thinner synthetic oil to increase mileage by decreasing drag on the reciprocating parts. I imagine you could swap 10W30 dino and get the first oil change analyzed to see if there is an issue (again, not an expert!). or maybe extend the change intervals to make the synthetic more economical. I run Mobil 1 in our cars, but only change the oil every 15k on the toyota, v8 4runner, which makes the synthetic a bit more economical. I buy the oil in 5qt cans at Walmart. I had been testing the oil with Blackstone, but it always came back saying I could go longer between changes based on the amount of additive pack that remained. Our other cars get free oil changes when the idiot light comes on, but they seem to go at least 10k miles between changes -- maybe that's another reason some manufacturers spec synthetics. - Ian On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Dave C wrote: > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are > considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde > Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new > engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no > big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for > years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be > ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the > engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a > couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just > about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, > and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in > the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do > ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound > right... > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/shop-talk2@**mcfetridge.org From pethier at comcast.net Fri Nov 2 07:45:19 2012 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 13:45:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: <1963444525.80337.1351863919944.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Sounds like they are reaching for CAFE numbers. I'd use 5w20 or 5w30, whichever is available, full synthetic from Valvoline, Mobil or Castrol. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier at comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica http://www.mnautox.com http://www.mntriumphs.org ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave C" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2012 12:21:39 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a > 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We > are considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking > with > my inde Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I > found the new engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket > engine. So far, no big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines > with that technology for years, although if the valves ever do need an > adjustment it's going to be ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs > 0W-20 > full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts > store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of > generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the > ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow > in the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. > Do ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't > sound > right... > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Nov 2 07:45:33 2012 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:45:33 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: I suspect as the demand for 0w-20 oils increases (many new cars are specifying very light oils) other oil companies will come out with 0w-20 oils (helping to keep prices down). Any Red Line dealers local to you? http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=124&pcid=21 Are you willing to check prices at WalMart? What is about 0w-20 that concerns you other than the price? If the engine is designed for it it the light weight shouldn't be a worry. This is not 1930's technology in a 1950's engine in a 1970's MG... Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave C" > I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY > spendy. > > 0w20 just doesn't sound right... From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 09:04:43 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:04:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: I've had cars that spec 0W-20 for a few years now, so I guess the shock has worn off. I still worry that it can hold up to the Florida heat, but they spec-ed it, so I have to assume they've done their homework. As far as availability, there are plenty of options. I use Mobil 1, but I remember seeing others. Based on just the cars we have, I assume 0W-20 is going to be the new standard. It apparently does a lot for fuel efficiency and tolerances are a lot closer in engines now. Scott On Nov 2, 2012 2:21 AM, "Dave C" wrote: > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are > considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde > Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new > engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no > big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for > years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be > ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the > engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a > couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just > about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, > and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in > the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do > ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound > right... > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/scott.hall.**personal at gmail.com From marka at maracing.com Fri Nov 2 09:19:31 2012 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <1963444525.80337.1351863919944.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1963444525.80337.1351863919944.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 2 Nov 2012, pethier at comcast.net wrote: > Sounds like they are reaching for CAFE numbers. I'd use 5w20 or 5w30, > whichever is available, full synthetic from Valvoline, Mobil or Castrol. I'd trust the engineers that built the motor, rather than a bunch of internet experts (even GOOD internet experts like we have here! :-) The only real question is if the engineers got overridden by someone with a concern that doesn't match yours. I think in the case of "what oil does the motor want", that's less likely. Mark From bjzwissler at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 10:46:28 2012 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:46:28 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: The trend to lower viscosity oils is to reduce the power used to pump the oil improving fuel economy. Thinner oil pumps easier. I have seem some articles expressing concern about the impact of lower viscosity oil on engine longevity, but as others have said you have to assume the engine OEM engineers (and I am one) have assessed that impact and convinced themselves that the engine will still meet useful life targets with the specified oil. That said, passenger car useful life targets are typically 120-140,000 miles. Most OEMs would say they met their target if 90% of the engines that had the specified maintenance on a "typical" duty cycle lasted that long. If your duty cycle is more severe than "typical" (and that can be too low a load or too high a load) or you don't maintain it per the schedule then you're likely to get lower life. Less stressful duty cycles will make the engine last longer, but there is a point where increased maintenance isn't better. I had a long argument while working a curve at an autocross with a guy who was convinced that running high loads was good for an engine. Not true. For example, a combine engine, with a duty cycle that's 90% full load and 10% idle, will likely have a useful life (measured in hours) that's 1/3 that of the same engine installed in an urban delivery truck. Of course all idle and never warming the engine up will also cause reduced life. In the end this is the literal meaning of YMMV. Personally, the 0W20 and 5W20 scares me a little and so far I've stuck with 5W30. Ben..... On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Dave C wrote: > My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 > with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are > considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde > Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new > engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no > big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for > years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be > ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the > engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a > couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just > about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, > and it's REALLY spendy. > > We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down > about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in > the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do > ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound > right... > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@**gmail.com From arvidj at visi.com Fri Nov 2 11:46:30 2012 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:46:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: It could be that the '0' scares us because we have not seen it before. We need to remember that the '0' does not mean "does not have any viscosity", only that the SAE viscosity index stops there. Page 11 of this ... http://www.oil-power.com/downloads/ViscTutor.pdf ... indicates that had some other index been used we could have numbers that would also be new to us ... we had not used that low a number before ... but the numbers would not as psychologically scary as 'zero'. Maybe in the future the marketing department will see that 'zero' scares people and they will petition the standards board for corrective action and 'zero' will become '100' under the new index ;-} Or maybe the motor engineers will make motors that will tolerate even lower viscosities and SAE will come up with a -5W [that is minus 5W] to adjust an index as it not longer reflecting the needs. Arvid From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Nov 2 20:03:31 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 22:03:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: <20121103020331.KCZW3.146280.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> Just to echo what I hope others have said, 0W20 is just numbers. It is slightly thinner when cold than say, 5W20; and slightly thinner all the time than 5W30. It will work fine, and perhaps save you a little bit on fuel costs. If you want to run 5W30 oil, it won't hurt anything except perhaps burn a bit more fuel. Just be sure to still use synthetic. A little poking around on the Internet shows Mobil 1 0W20 for around $9/qt, which is only slightly higher than most synthetics (I generally have to pay around $7.50 unless I wait for a loss leader sale). Check your local Wally-mart. Their web site doesn't list a price, but if they carry it in the 5 qt jugs it will likely be a lot cheaper than the per-quart price at other places. Randall From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Nov 2 20:07:46 2012 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 19:07:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <20121103020331.KCZW3.146280.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> References: <20121103020331.KCZW3.146280.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> Message-ID: <50947C72.1080300@frontier.com> Thanks for all the comments. As Randall (and others) pointed out, it's just numbers, and I guess I will have to get used to it. I checked the owners manual on-line and it specs 0W20 synth and nothing else regardless of operating temperature, but interestingly, the turbo version specs 5W20. I also did a little poking around on one of the Forester forums and a lot of people seem to be buying their oil at Wally World, so I guess I'll have to check that out, too. On 11/2/2012 7:03 PM, Randall wrote: > Just to echo what I hope others have said, 0W20 is just numbers. It is slightly thinner when cold than say, 5W20; and slightly thinner all the time than 5W30. It will work fine, and perhaps save you a little bit on fuel costs. > > If you want to run 5W30 oil, it won't hurt anything except perhaps burn a bit more fuel. Just be sure to still use synthetic. > > A little poking around on the Internet shows Mobil 1 0W20 for around $9/qt, which is only slightly higher than most synthetics (I generally have to pay around $7.50 unless I wait for a loss leader sale). > > Check your local Wally-mart. Their web site doesn't list a price, but if they carry it in the 5 qt jugs it will likely be a lot cheaper than the per-quart price at other places. > > Randall From jibjib at att.net Fri Nov 2 20:38:57 2012 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 19:38:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again In-Reply-To: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> References: <50935863.10507@frontier.com> Message-ID: Dave, The manufacturer does know what he is doing, but some of the low viscosity oil push is for mileage too. If you are west of the Cascades, I'd not be concerned about bumping up to a 5w20. Once you are out of warrantee, use the synthetic, but extend the intervals to make the synthetic more affordable. I've gone to annual changes on all of my cars, using Mobil 1. The only variance on this theme is my wife's Volvo XC90. It's a 2.5 liter straight 5 turbo engine in an SUV and after a year an oil analysis showed that the Aluminum and steel count was a tad high, so I switched to Redline and the numbers are back to being OK. The Mobil 1 just didn't hold up for 15k in the turbo engine, but it's fine in everything else I own and has been since 1981, when I switched to Mobil 1 and annual changes. It's been 30+ years of annual (spring) oil changes, several cars have come and gone and I know I'm doing the right thing. It's less expensive, less work and works just fine. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave C Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:22 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil, again My wife and I are considering our third Subaru Forester. We have a 2000 with 147K miles which is my daily commuter, and my wife has a 2008. We are considering getting a '13 model to replace my 2000. In talking with my inde Subaru mechanic (Subaru only, all former dealer mechanics) I found the new engine is a DOHC, chain driven cam, shim under bucket engine. So far, no big deal. I have been riding motorcycle engines with that technology for years, although if the valves ever do need an adjustment it's going to be ugly. However, apparently Subaru specs 0W-20 full synthetic oil for the engine. I was in the local chain auto parts store today picking up a couple of H4s and four five liter jugs of generic 10w30 that I use in just about everything and I saw that the ONLY 0w20 oil was Mobil 1 green cap, and it's REALLY spendy. We really like our Subarus. We live in rural Washington and live down about 2 miles of steep, semi-paved former logging road that gets snow in the winter some years, and the Subarus are all that keep us mobile. Do ya'll think this is anything to worry about? 0w20 just doesn't sound right... _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Sat Nov 3 11:17:31 2012 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 10:17:31 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] oil viscosity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48266AE76E9F4F7694900EB7CA067A94@SusieandMarkPC> 1. Re: Oil, again (Eric J Russell) Another thing to consider is that thinner oils pump far better at startup than thicker oils. You are lubricating with the first crank of the starter and the oil is flowing where it needs to go that much sooner. This will help with engine life. From jem at milleredp.com Sun Nov 4 19:12:47 2012 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:12:47 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a new multimeter In-Reply-To: <1351652301.13976.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <50908146.6020907@gmail.com> <1351652301.13976.YahooMailRC@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5097209F.30800@milleredp.com> On 10/30/2012 7:58 PM, old dirtbeard wrote: > They are a little pricey and "old school," but it is my favorite meter. > > http://www.simpsonelectric.com/index.asp?p=Products&id=30&sid=40&ss=31 I'll just note I've had decent luck buying used Fluke and Wavetek stuff off eBay... John. From tputland at charter.net Mon Nov 5 12:06:20 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:06:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Message-ID: <670ed32.141a99.13ad1f75ce8.Webtop.43@charter.net> HI all. My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that deciphers these codes? I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like nor have I found one that shows this particular code. Thanks! tim From mark at bradakis.com Mon Nov 5 12:54:04 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 12:54:04 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site In-Reply-To: <670ed32.141a99.13ad1f75ce8.Webtop.43@charter.net> References: <670ed32.141a99.13ad1f75ce8.Webtop.43@charter.net> Message-ID: <5098195C.3060309@bradakis.com> P0000 ? Are you sure? My S10 manual doesn't have any code like that listed. mjb. From tputland at charter.net Mon Nov 5 16:54:56 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:54:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Message-ID: <6cd0bf8a.eeba7.13ad2ff967d.Webtop.47@charter.net> "SES" is Service Engine Soon to answer one question. Based on the replies, I guess it is time to get my own reader. Thanks all. tim On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Tim wrote: > HI all. > > My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's > code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that > deciphers these codes? > > I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like > nor have I found one that shows this particular code. > > Thanks! > tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From mbarre at juno.com Mon Nov 5 17:18:23 2012 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 00:18:23 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Message-ID: <20121105.191823.22790.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> I found a useful .pdf that has all the GM codes at: http://www.edgeproducts.com/product_images/customer_support_article-pdf-40.pd f ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Tim To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:06:20 -0500 (EST) HI all. My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that deciphers these codes? I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like nor have I found one that shows this particular code. Thanks! tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Nov 5 17:59:17 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:59:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site In-Reply-To: <20121105.191823.22790.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> References: <20121105.191823.22790.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <509860E5.7090601@xxiii.com> On 11/5/2012 7:18 PM, Matt wrote: > I found a useful .pdf that has all the GM codes at: > http://www.edgeproducts.com/product_images/customer_support_article-pdf-40.pdf Nice reference! Thanks, Matt. If you look at the coding structure explained there, any of the codes with a zero in the 2nd position (thousands digit) are standard across all manufacturers and cars, so it's not just a GM reference. Not every car is able to monitor every one of those, but a given code means the same thing on any car it pops up on. OBD-II also standardized the nomenclature for all the parts & controls. Seemed kinda draconian when it came out nearly 20 years ago, but in retrospect, it's a good idea and actually makes it easier for DIYers and small time shops to work on modern vehicles (vs having to have a manufacturer specific reader for each one.) -Wayne From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Nov 5 18:00:30 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:00:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site In-Reply-To: <6cd0bf8a.eeba7.13ad2ff967d.Webtop.47@charter.net> References: <6cd0bf8a.eeba7.13ad2ff967d.Webtop.47@charter.net> Message-ID: <5098612E.9000707@xxiii.com> I googled "obd code p0000" and got 7 million hits. Appears to indicate "no problems, no codes stored." I bought this little $20 scanner and it does all the basic stuff: http://www.amazon.com/Autel-MaxiScan-MS300-Diagnostic-Vehicles/dp/B001LHVOVK http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0KZ-0002-00002 Used it on Mom's 2003 BMW 5' and a friend's 2007 Nissan Sentra. It will read out the standardized "basic" set of mandated codes, clear the codes, and reset the MIL. It was able the reset the BMW's "service soon" light (tune up indicator) but wouldn't reset the "change oil" light. Also does not do the fancy stuff like auto-trans, ABS, air-bags etc; you gotta spend a bunch more to get all that! -Wayne On 11/5/2012 6:54 PM, Tim wrote: > "SES" is Service Engine Soon to answer one question. > Based on the replies, I guess it is time to get my own reader. > > Thanks all. > tim > > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Tim wrote: > >> HI all. >> >> My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's >> code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that >> deciphers these codes? >> >> I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I like >> nor have I found one that shows this particular code. >> >> Thanks! >> tim From tputland at charter.net Tue Nov 6 05:33:43 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:33:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] engine code web site Message-ID: <59fe26a.1010d6.13ad5b64648.Webtop.44@charter.net> b I found a useful .pdf that has all the GM codes atb&b This is great, thanks! b What part of the world are you located in?b Near Madison, WI. Why? b I bought this little $20 scannerb&b Can I assume it will read GM codes? b You gotta spend a bunch more to get all that!b Am hoping to not have to spend too much but will in order to get one that will do what I need it too. Thanks all! tim On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Tim wrote: > "SES" is Service Engine Soon to answer one question. > > Based on the replies, I guess it is time to get my own reader. > > Thanks all. > tim > > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Tim wrote: > >> HI all. >> >> My 96 S10 (2WD 4.3V6) has the SES light on. I borrowed my friend's >> code reader and got P0000. What do you all use for a web site that >> deciphers these codes? >> >> I have done some searching but not found a really good web site I >> like nor have I found one that shows this particular code. >> >> Thanks! >> tim >> _______________________________________________ From mbarre at juno.com Tue Nov 6 06:51:56 2012 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:51:56 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics Message-ID: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> When I got my first relatively inexpensive code reader, I thought "great, now I can peer into the control systems and maintain all my cars!" It didn't take long before I realized that wasn't necessarily the case. OBD was reasonable regulation attempting to standardize trouble reporting and while us shadetree folks made out well, the justification for guvment monkeying with the private enterprise of auto manufacturing was emissions. Beyond a common interface and the mandated basic tuning/emissions requirements, there was no attempt to standardize the rest of how your car's computer operated & reported. While you can get basic code readers out of Asia for under $30, the growth of software in automotive function and control reveals that there is a whole lot more going on than what basic trouble codes reveal. I think the answer will be (is) an OBD to USB cable and instead of a dedicated reader, the secret sauce will be the softwware that runs on your laptop. That is what I had to get for my VWs and it is called VAG-COM. The capability/flexibility afforded by this set up is amazing but it isn't cheap - yet. Certainly cheaper than a big brand specific diagnostic machine that garages had to buy in the "olden" days. To combat the eventuality of a $20 cable and bootlegged software, they are placing a chip in the cable and the full-capability, supported software looks for the chip before it will work. I guess it is simply too much to ask for all car manufacturers to use common or open source programming for their products. With no incentive, why would they? MB From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Nov 6 07:39:32 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:39:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics In-Reply-To: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> References: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <50992124.3000903@xxiii.com> On 11/6/2012 8:51 AM, Matt wrote: > can get basic code readers out of Asia for under $30, the growth of software > in automotive function and control reveals that there is a whole lot more > going on than what basic trouble codes reveal. I think the answer will be > (is) an OBD to USB cable and instead of a dedicated reader, the secret sauce Yeah, putting it in software seems like it should make it easy & cheap. Know of any? There were a bunch of free-ware ones for my old pre-OBDII Nissans. Surprised there seem to be none for new stuff (but I haven't looked very hard.) > That is what I had to get for my VWs and it is called VAG-COM. Setting new standards in ease of communication with otherwise difficult to comprehend females! :) -Wayne From mg_garage at comcast.net Tue Nov 6 08:01:14 2012 From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:01:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics In-Reply-To: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> References: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: I'll second an interface like VAG-COM. I paid $99 about 11 yrs ago and have upgraded my dongle (cable USB interface) for about $40 IIRC. I know I've saved hundreds if not thousands over the years on my '98 A4 and '03 A6 by being able to read the codes and take corrective action only if necessary, and clear the code for something unimportant. One can also do some fun stuff like change the locking (ie: all unlock with one button push) and/or close all windows and sunroof with the lock button. I believe as an investment in a tool that VAG-COM is well worth the money. my .02 Gordie Bird -------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt" Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 8:51 AM To: Subject: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics > When I got my first relatively inexpensive code reader, I thought "great, > now > I can peer into the control systems and maintain all my cars!" It didn't > take > long before I realized that wasn't necessarily the case. OBD was > reasonable > regulation attempting to standardize trouble reporting and while us > shadetree > folks made out well, the justification for guvment monkeying with the > private > enterprise of auto manufacturing was emissions. Beyond a common interface > and > the mandated basic tuning/emissions requirements, there was no attempt to > standardize the rest of how your car's computer operated & reported. While > you > can get basic code readers out of Asia for under $30, the growth of > software > in automotive function and control reveals that there is a whole lot more > going on than what basic trouble codes reveal. I think the answer will be > (is) an OBD to USB cable and instead of a dedicated reader, the secret > sauce > will be the softwware that runs on your laptop. That is what I had to get > for > my VWs and it is called VAG-COM. The capability/flexibility afforded by > this > set up is amazing but it isn't cheap - yet. Certainly cheaper than a big > brand specific diagnostic machine that garages had to buy in the "olden" > days. > To combat the eventuality of a $20 cable and bootlegged software, they are > placing a chip in the cable and the full-capability, supported software > looks > for the chip before it will work. I guess it is simply too much to ask > for > all car manufacturers to use common or open source programming for their > products. With no incentive, why would they? MB > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mg_garage at comcast.net From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Nov 6 08:32:26 2012 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:32:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine diagnostics In-Reply-To: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> References: <20121106.085156.25401.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <0f1b01cdbc33$ece8dbd0$0601a8c0@randall> > To combat the eventuality of a $20 cable and bootlegged > software, they are > placing a chip in the cable and the full-capability, > supported software looks > for the chip before it will work. Actually, that chip is a fairly sophisticated microprocessor, with the integrated hardware controllers required to talk to CAN bus (OBD-II) on one side, and USB bus on the other. They are very different interfaces; and CAN in particular is a very odd network protocol. The ones sold to garage mechanics are also quite limited in functionality. We just bought some more of the "good stuff" at work, and they were nearly $2000 each just for the hardware and software library to communicate with it. > I guess it is simply too > much to ask for > all car manufacturers to use common or open source > programming for their > products. With no incentive, why would they? There are in fact powerful disincentives not to. There is a great deal of money spent on developing that software and it changes pretty much constantly. Giving away source code that cost literally tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and can benefit only one's competitors just isn't going to happen. But you are quite right, those diagnostic addresses are only the tip of the iceberg for what is actually going on inside. I spend a good deal of my professional life writing CAN bus code; and diagnostic addresses are just something that gets stuck on afterwards, to help troubleshoot problems in the field. That's pretty much the way it has to be, since a DA can only be updated at 10 Hz or so, but practically any control loop (ignition, fuel, ABS, etc) has to run much faster. We run up to 1 kHz in software, faster loops are done in (custom) hardware. -- Randall From ElanS4 at cox.net Tue Nov 6 14:34:41 2012 From: ElanS4 at cox.net (Jo Mullen) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:34:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Need a new multimeter In-Reply-To: <5097209F.30800@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <20121106213449.PIVP29905.eastrmfepo203.cox.net@eastrmimpo109> For what it's worth, I too have a good Fluke meter. It stays in my tool box and is used when exact measurements are needed. I also have a couple of the cheap Harbor Freight meters. They get tossed around, kkept in the junk drawer in the kitchen, in the subset of tools kept in the trunk, etc. They work well when you are looking for continunity, or voltage, or a gross reading of resistance. Both have their place. Tim Mullen From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Nov 7 05:06:35 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 07:06:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Massachusetts "Right to Repair" Ballot Initiative Message-ID: A political topic that is actually relevant to this list! I just noticed this, which apparently passed overwhelmingly: http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Massachusetts_%22Right_to_Repair%22_Initiative,_Question_1_%282012%29 Doug From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Nov 7 08:42:57 2012 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 07:42:57 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Massachusetts "Right to Repair" Ballot Initiative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fb001cdbcfe$8fadf5b0$0601a8c0@randall> > I just noticed this, which apparently passed overwhelmingly: It's interesting, but I can't see that it changes anything, much. They are allowed to charge "fair market value" for the information, which could easily be a lot more than I'd be willing to pay (eg $50,000 per year is pretty reasonable if you are selling 100 cars a month); and information pertaining to alarm systems or "trade secrets" is expressly excluded. Anything they haven't already published could likely be considered a "trade secret". How many independent shops, let alone individual owners even drop $500 on a set of manufacturer service manuals? And I'm guessing that the EPA will balk at the idea of letting any car owner know how to dirty up their exhaust, meaning it will be overturned fairly easily. Interstate commerce and all that. -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 06:46:53 2012 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 07:46:53 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Massachusetts "Right to Repair" Ballot Initiative In-Reply-To: <0fb001cdbcfe$8fadf5b0$0601a8c0@randall> References: <0fb001cdbcfe$8fadf5b0$0601a8c0@randall> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:42 AM, "Randall" wrote: >> I just noticed this, which apparently passed overwhelmingly: > > It's interesting, but I can't see that it changes anything, much. They are > allowed to charge "fair market value" for the information, which could > easily be a lot more than I'd be willing to pay (eg $50,000 per year is > pretty reasonable if you are selling 100 cars a month); and information > pertaining to alarm systems or "trade secrets" is expressly excluded. > Anything they haven't already published could likely be considered a "trade > secret". > > How many independent shops, let alone individual owners even drop $500 on a > set of manufacturer service manuals? > > And I'm guessing that the EPA will balk at the idea of letting any car owner > know how to dirty up their exhaust, meaning it will be overturned fairly > easily. Interstate commerce and all that. From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Nov 9 17:31:31 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:31:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac Message-ID: Hello, I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's starting to fall apart. Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? I'm not looking for some giant fancy thing, but one that is not a hassle to use, not too noisy, and will not fall apart. I tend to do a lot of little 30-second vacuuming jobs, mostly with a hand brush as opposed to a floor wand/brush. Thanks, Doug From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Nov 9 17:53:35 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:53:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509DA58F.5000407@xxiii.com> On 11/9/2012 7:31 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's > starting to fall apart. > Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? I think there are really only two major manufacturers. Actual "Shop Vac" brand, which most people say is lousy. And Ridgid, which sells under their own name (@ Home Depot & elsewhere) and also appears to make Sears'. There are some esoteric brands with absurdly high (multi-hundred dollar) price tags, but you'd have to be an every day finish carpenter or similar to justify them. I have a Ridgid 12gal one from H.D. that's worked well for 4+ years. The local H.D. has it (well, pretty much the same one) on holiday sale right now for $70 (same I paid years ago) AND it comes with more accessories than I got for the price (floor brush & squeegee nozzles). I can't say it's quiet, but it is improved -- a lot less shrill or high-pitched than the older Sears I had. I like mine to be easy to move around, so I don't like the huge tank models. Who needs 20+ gallons liquid capacity? That's what a pump is for! Unfortunately, the mini-sized ones don't have all that much suction. The Ridgid is a good in between size for me. -W From arvidj at visi.com Fri Nov 9 17:55:38 2012 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 18:55:38 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F81694C-6288-4BA1-8B1C-6799F449C26C@visi.com> I got one of these a while ago to supplement the bigger vacs that never seem to be where I and the dirt are. I find it handy to store and easy to grab, plug in and use plus it seems to be quite powerful for the size. http://www.homedepot.com/Appliances-Vacuum-Cleaners-Floor-Care-Wet-Dry-Vacuum s/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbv79/R-203235053/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1 &storeId=10051#.UJ2kamt5mSM On Nov 9, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > Hello, > > I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's > starting to fall apart. > Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? > I'm not looking for some giant fancy thing, but one that is not a hassle to > use, not too noisy, and will > not fall apart. I tend to do a lot of little 30-second vacuuming jobs, > mostly with a hand brush as > opposed to a floor wand/brush. > > Thanks, > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From bk13 at earthlink.net Fri Nov 9 17:59:08 2012 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:59:08 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Doug - Both Lowes and Home Depot typically have a shop vac or two as a black Friday special for a very low price. I picked up a Ridgid one to replace my failing 15 year old ShopVac screamer. It had a larger diameter hose which makes for fewer clogs. It also is easy to switch from suck to blow which either cleans out the hose or helps clean up the work area. Lowes has part of their stuff out - was$89, will be $39. http://www.theblackfriday.com/ads/lowes/lowes-black-friday-ad1.shtml. Brian On 11/9/2012 4:31 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > Hello, > > I am growing weary of my 12-year old, fairly cheap Sears shop vac. It's > starting to fall apart. > Can anybody recommend a good replacement (or ones to avoid)? > I'm not looking for some giant fancy thing, but one that is not a hassle to > use, not too noisy, and will > not fall apart. I tend to do a lot of little 30-second vacuuming jobs, > mostly with a hand brush as > opposed to a floor wand/brush. > > Thanks, > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From ElanS4 at cox.net Fri Nov 9 20:18:38 2012 From: ElanS4 at cox.net (Mullen) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:18:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On the subject of shop vacs, many years ago, I bought the handiest accessory for my nearly 30-year-old Craftsman vac. It is a new hose - a hose that is about 15-20 feet long. Makes it extremely handy for most tasks, as you do not have to move the vac around very much, if at all. It is also one of the large diameter hoses (what? 2 inches instead of the normal 1 1/2 inch hose?) Tim Mullen From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Nov 9 21:02:45 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:02:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Message-ID: This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 It has a wall-mounting bracket, and at the end of the hose there is a remote control switch, so you can turn it on and off where you are working, instead of having to walk back to the main unit. Doug On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Mullen wrote: > On the subject of shop vacs, many years ago, I bought the handiest > accessory > for my nearly 30-year-old Craftsman vac. It is a new hose - a hose that is > about 15-20 feet long. Makes it extremely handy for most tasks, as you do > not have to move the vac around very much, if at all. > > It is also one of the large diameter hoses (what? 2 inches instead of the > normal 1 1/2 inch hose?) > > Tim Mullen > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Nov 9 21:24:12 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 23:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <509DD6EC.2060007@xxiii.com> On 11/9/2012 11:02 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 Wow, 5HP @ 120V. That takes around 32 amps. Didn't they ban BS HP claims, or get sued over them a few years ago??? -w From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sat Nov 10 05:42:58 2012 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 07:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: <509DD6EC.2060007@xxiii.com> References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> <509DD6EC.2060007@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <3724B3F5-27AC-4444-BD47-72C8A2462954@groupwbench.org> On Nov 9, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Wayne wrote: > > Wow, 5HP @ 120V. That takes around 32 amps. Didn't they ban BS HP claims, or get sued over them a few years ago??? That's 5hp potential in the unburned fuel at the electrical plant :-) I have a large Rigid (ahem) and a 1gal ShopVac. Both have been for for years although both are quite loud. The 1 gal sounds right for your application though it's torquey enough to spin itself if you don't hold it. Quiet costs. WAP makes a nice one. You could always locate the vacuum remotely like central vacuum system but that's fancy... From parkanzky at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 06:00:19 2012 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:00:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> Message-ID: A lot of my 'online car buddies' have these: http://www.bissell.com/garage-pro-wet-dry-vacuum/ And they're very well reviewed on the forums. They all bought them extremely cheap through a friend that works at Bissell. I missed out on the deal and I'm kicking myself for it. -Paul P. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: > > > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 > > It has a wall-mounting bracket, and at the end of the hose there is a > remote control switch, so > you can turn it on and off where you are working, instead of having to walk > back to the main unit. > > Doug > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Mullen wrote: > > > On the subject of shop vacs, many years ago, I bought the handiest > > accessory > > for my nearly 30-year-old Craftsman vac. It is a new hose - a hose that > is > > about 15-20 feet long. Makes it extremely handy for most tasks, as you > do > > not have to move the vac around very much, if at all. > > > > It is also one of the large diameter hoses (what? 2 inches instead of the > > normal 1 1/2 inch hose?) > > > > Tim Mullen > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky at gmail.com From arvidj at visi.com Sat Nov 10 07:21:45 2012 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:21:45 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac In-Reply-To: <509DD6EC.2060007@xxiii.com> References: <509DA6DC.2030005@earthlink.net> <509DD6EC.2060007@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <036D972B8C09468D8DD67804528C5C98@HP62011> That is the ILS electric motor rating system used primarily for shop vacuums and air compressors. ILS -- If Lightning Strikes --- -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:24 PM To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop Vac On 11/9/2012 11:02 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > This long-hose model from Sears looks interesting: > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-remote-control-wall-mount-5.0-peak-hp/p-00916825000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 Wow, 5HP @ 120V. That takes around 32 amps. Didn't they ban BS HP claims, or get sued over them a few years ago??? -w From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sat Nov 10 16:21:49 2012 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:21:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] 06 Caravan wiring help needed Message-ID: <509EE18D.4030401@hornesystemstx.com> My 2006 Caravan is sitting in my shop and I am trying to replace the overhead lighting console with one that has the trip computer in it. I have all the mechanical parts needed, just need to run one wire to it. Anyone have a wiring diagram or at least color code for the one extra wire I need to run? I assume it runs to one of the circuits in the OBD II connector, but can't find anything on line about it. Thanks in advance. Peace, Pat -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Nov 10 17:11:39 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 19:11:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 06 Caravan wiring help needed In-Reply-To: <509EE18D.4030401@hornesystemstx.com> References: <509EE18D.4030401@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <509EED3B.2090801@xxiii.com> Are you sure it needs more wire? CAN-Bus has been common for nearly 20 years now, and cars blip network packets over power conductors, rather than running separate conductors for every device. Even if it was hard-wired, I doubt they would have two different harness stocked on a 'line just for one optional feature. -w On 11/10/2012 6:21 PM, Pat Horne wrote: > My 2006 Caravan is sitting in my shop and I am trying to replace the > overhead lighting console with one that has the trip computer in it. I > have all the mechanical parts needed, just need to run one wire to it. > Anyone have a wiring diagram or at least color code for the one extra > wire I need to run? I assume it runs to one of the circuits in the OBD > II connector, but can't find anything on line about it. > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace, > Pat From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sat Nov 10 17:51:24 2012 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:51:24 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] 06 Caravan wiring help needed In-Reply-To: <509EED3B.2090801@xxiii.com> References: <509EE18D.4030401@hornesystemstx.com> <509EED3B.2090801@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <509EF68C.5070104@hornesystemstx.com> Wayne, I just found a wiring diagram on the net and see that the connector i was looking at was for the lights only, and not the CAN-bus module. There is another 12-pin connector that I didn't see that I need to wire up some of the pins on to get it to work. The original console I have only contains reading lights, while the one I am installing has the trip computer, etc., a totally separate module, in addition to the lights. Thanks for your reply. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Wayne > Are you sure it needs more wire? CAN-Bus has been common for nearly 20 > years now, and cars blip network packets over power conductors, rather > than running separate conductors for every device. Even if it was > hard-wired, I doubt they would have two different harness stocked on a > 'line just for one optional feature. > > -w > > On 11/10/2012 6:21 PM, Pat Horne wrote: >> My 2006 Caravan is sitting in my shop and I am trying to replace the >> overhead lighting console with one that has the trip computer in it. I >> have all the mechanical parts needed, just need to run one wire to it. >> Anyone have a wiring diagram or at least color code for the one extra >> wire I need to run? I assume it runs to one of the circuits in the OBD >> II connector, but can't find anything on line about it. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Peace, >> Pat > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice & Text 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Nov 11 10:22:35 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:22:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Message-ID: An entertaining article about the things people on this list often buy: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/business/hurricane-sandy-and-the-disaster-preparedness-economy.html Doug From bspidell at comcast.net Sun Nov 11 11:27:44 2012 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:27:44 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who have no fuel??? On 11/11/2012 9:22 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > An entertaining article about the things people on this list often buy: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/business/hurricane-sandy-and-the-disaster-preparedness-economy.html > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Nov 11 12:26:58 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:26:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Message-ID: My generator is a Honda EU2000. I have to power only a couple of modern fridges, lights, and computer stuff (amazingly, we did not lose Verizon Fios service in any of the storms of the last couple of years). It was able to run ten hours on a gallon of gas! I had filled up all my cars before the storm, and I had enough gas in them to run the generator for a week. If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Bob Spidell wrote: > > Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who have no fuel??? From arvidj at visi.com Sun Nov 11 13:01:08 2012 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:01:08 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Message-ID: I wonder if having one that runs on natural gas would be a better option than one that runs on gasoline. Or maybe one that runs on diesel as diesel is much easier for "long term emergency use only" storage. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Spidell Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:27 PM To: Doug Braun Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who have no fuel??? From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sun Nov 11 13:20:19 2012 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:20:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> -If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug Hi Doug, Well, yes and no. The fuel consumption ratings generally are compiled at 50% load, so if you are loading a 6 kW generator at 1/2 load, you will need to burn enough fuel to generate 3kW of power which would be more than a 50% load on a smaller generator. While larger generators probably will burn more fuel "idling" than a small one idling, with comparable levels of efficiency, they should not consume a great deal more fuel while generating similar output. I have this 4 kW Generac model that will run 10 hours @ 1/2 load on 4.5 gallons of fuel: http://www.generac.com/Portables/XG/Products/XG4000/ It can run all day on a tank at "normal" loads for me which are less than 1/2 load. I have been amazed at how little fuel it uses and do not fill the tank anymore as it takes so long to burn a tank that I worry about old gas (I do use Stabil). :-) An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional capacity if you need it. best, doug From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sun Nov 11 14:02:53 2012 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:02:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I am actually replying to my own message (always bad behavior). I looked up the consumption ratings for the EU2000: RATED AC OUTPUT1600 WATTS CONTINUOUS OPERATION TIME4HRS. @ RATED LOAD, 9.6 HRS. @ 1/4 LOAD So it should burn 1.1 gallons every 4 hours at 1600 watts and 1.1 gallons every 9.6 hours at 400 watts That 4 kW Generac would burn 4.5 gals every 10 hours at 1800 watts. So, if my arithmetic is correct (and it very well may not be--someone should check it), the little Honda generates 5.8 kWh per gallon running at rated output and ~3.5 kWh per gallon at 1/4 load. The larger Generac generates 4 kWh per gallon at 1/2 load, somewhere between the two ratings (full and 1/4) for the Honda. It would appear my belief that consumption is directly related to output has some founding, it also would appear that for the Honda (and probably most generators), though, it would be best to try to size the generator to run toward it's rated output where it is more efficient. Of course there are noise, longevity, etc., considerations involved as well. best, doug ----- Original Message ---- From: old dirtbeard To: Doug Braun ; Shop-Talk Sent: Sun, November 11, 2012 12:27:17 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets -If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug Hi Doug, Well, yes and no. The fuel consumption ratings generally are compiled at 50% load, so if you are loading a 6 kW generator at 1/2 load, you will need to burn enough fuel to generate 3kW of power which would be more than a 50% load on a smaller generator. While larger generators probably will burn more fuel "idling" than a small one idling, with comparable levels of efficiency, they should not consume a great deal more fuel while generating similar output. I have this 4 kW Generac model that will run 10 hours @ 1/2 load on 4.5 gallons of fuel: http://www.generac.com/Portables/XG/Products/XG4000/ It can run all day on a tank at "normal" loads for me which are less than 1/2 load. I have been amazed at how little fuel it uses and do not fill the tank anymore as it takes so long to burn a tank that I worry about old gas (I do use Stabil). :-) An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional capacity if you need it. best, doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at pacbell.net From cavanadd at frontier.com Sun Nov 11 14:17:52 2012 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:17:52 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50A01600.8050108@frontier.com> > An installed natural gas generator is always a better option if you > can afford it and natural gas is available...and doesn't stop. I > understand they have shut off a lot of the natural gas lines in New > Jersey due to widespread leaks. > > For years I used a big Hobart welder for my generator. I live in the > rural suburbs of Seattle and every few years we get some nasty > snowfalls that can take the power out for a week, and I live at the > tail end of a single-ended feed. The Hobart was noisy and thirsty, > but put out 8KW. A couple of years ago I upgraded to a pad mounted > propane setup, since we already had a 500 gallon propane tank for the > water heater and back-up furnace. It's very nice and I don't have to > worry about the gas company shutting off the main. Plus, with a wood > stove for primary heat in an emergency, the propane would last quite a > while. > > I originally considered diesel for same reasons you mentioned, but > they are very expensive and I really didn't want to store (or buy) 500 > gallons of diesel. On 11/11/2012 12:01 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I wonder if having one that runs on natural gas would be a better > option than one that runs on gasoline. Or maybe one that runs on > diesel as diesel is much easier for "long term emergency use only" > storage. > > -----Original Message----- From: Bob Spidell > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:27 PM > To: Doug Braun > Cc: Shop-Talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat > shop-related) gadgets > > Sooooooooooooo ... they're selling generators like crazy to people who > have no fuel??? _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From eltonclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 15:01:08 2012 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:01:08 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Farms and sububan acreage operators have a good resource available to them if they already have any size of a diesel tractor with a power take off shaft. One can buy PTO operated generators for cheap and the tractors are so efficient that the fuel cost is reasonable . . Don't hold me liable but I think I did the math and could generate 4.5 KW for about half a gallon of diesel per hour. (tractor rated at 17.5 horsepower hours per gallon) Diesel tractors are amazingly efficient at low load. Massey Ferguson had a state fair stunt where one was to guess how much fuel a 60 HP diesel tractor would burn in a DAY at no-load idle . .it was about a quart! Tony From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Nov 11 15:13:46 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 17:13:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The nice thing about the EU2000 (and one reason it is expensive) it that it is inverter-based. This means that the engine is not required to constantly run at 3600 RPM to produce 60 Hz AC. When the power draw is low, it throttles down quite a bit. As a bonus, it gets even quieter. They make a 6500 watt inverter generator, but it costs a fortune. Doug On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 4:02 PM, old dirtbeard wrote: > I am actually replying to my own message (always bad behavior). > > I looked up the consumption ratings for the EU2000: > > RATED AC OUTPUT1600 WATTS > CONTINUOUS OPERATION TIME4HRS. @ RATED LOAD, 9.6 HRS. @ 1/4 LOAD > So it should burn 1.1 gallons every 4 hours at 1600 watts and 1.1 gallons every > 9.6 hours at 400 watts > > That 4 kW Generac would burn 4.5 gals every 10 hours at 1800 watts. > > So, if my arithmetic is correct (and it very well may not be--someone should > check it), the little Honda generates 5.8 kWh per gallon running at rated output > and ~3.5 kWh per gallon at 1/4 load. > > The larger Generac generates 4 kWh per gallon at 1/2 load, somewhere between the > two ratings (full and 1/4) for the Honda. > > It would appear my belief that consumption is directly related to output has > some founding, it also would appear that for the Honda (and probably most > generators), though, it would be best to try to size the generator to run toward > it's rated output where it is more efficient. Of course there are noise, > longevity, etc., considerations involved as well. > best, From eltonclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 17:25:14 2012 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:25:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1352667773.44418.YahooMailRC@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 4:07 PM, *John Innis* wrote: > Nothing cheap about a PTO generator. They cost almost as much as a > similar rated unit with a gas motor. And you have to have a tractor with > sufficient PTO power to run it. > > *Well, yes you DO sorta need a tractor for a pto generator(!) but a > quick Google search found a $900 7.1KW pto unit and I would personally > rather have that sitting around on standby that a highpriced GASOLINE unit > (Honda 6.KW @ $4000) which will cost much more to operate. You choose.* > *Tony in Texas* ** From jibjib at att.net Mon Nov 12 22:53:13 2012 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:53:13 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets In-Reply-To: <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <509FEE20.9080508@comcast.net> <1352665219.96926.YahooMailRC@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93C341E8B2AD42DAA6C6ABA53527B1C4@EntCentPC> > An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional > capacity if you need it. We have a 7,500 watt generator. I don't recall the numbers, but it'll run far longer than I thought it would on it's 10 gallon tank. The nice part is that we run as much of the house as we need to and still run a few extension cords to the neighbors. I only keep 10 gallons in cans, but I have 10 in my Triumph TR3 and 13 or so in my Triumph TR8. Last winter we lost power for a week, right after switching to Dish. That was nice, as Comcast was down. We lose power every few years for a few days at a clip. Having a nice big generator is nice to bridge the gap. I also like to be able to run my welder in the field too. Jack Seattle-ish -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of old dirtbeard Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:20 PM To: Doug Braun; Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Article on contemporary (somewhat shop-related) gadgets -If you get one of these big 6000 watt portable generators, you'll probably need at least 12 gallons per day, so you would be spending a lot of time in line at the gas station (if it's even open). And that much gas gets expensive: at least $40 per day. Doug Hi Doug, Well, yes and no. The fuel consumption ratings generally are compiled at 50% load, so if you are loading a 6 kW generator at 1/2 load, you will need to burn enough fuel to generate 3kW of power which would be more than a 50% load on a smaller generator. While larger generators probably will burn more fuel "idling" than a small one idling, with comparable levels of efficiency, they should not consume a great deal more fuel while generating similar output. I have this 4 kW Generac model that will run 10 hours @ 1/2 load on 4.5 gallons of fuel: http://www.generac.com/Portables/XG/Products/XG4000/ It can run all day on a tank at "normal" loads for me which are less than 1/2 load. I have been amazed at how little fuel it uses and do not fill the tank anymore as it takes so long to burn a tank that I worry about old gas (I do use Stabil). :-) An advantage of a larger generator is that you do have the additional capacity if you need it. best, doug _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Nov 23 23:47:37 2012 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 22:47:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters? Message-ID: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> I must not get out enough. I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper. I never knew they existed. I understand how they work, and I guess if natural gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution looking for a problem. When my (12 year old) propane heater craps out we'll be getting another propane heater... Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 10:01:50 2012 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:01:50 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters? In-Reply-To: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> References: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Dave C wrote: > I must not get out enough. I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper. I > never knew they existed. I understand how they work, and I guess if natural > gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they > might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution > looking for a problem. Well, they're in range of 250% efficient, so for straight out replacing a standard electric water heater the pay back period is somewhere around 3 years. Depends on your electric rates, of course, and your usage. Also depends on climate: if you're somewhere like Florida where you're likely going to be paying to air condition air much of the year, you get a double bonus, since the heat moved into hot water is heat the air conditioner doesn't have to deal with. If you're in Alaska, it probably doesn't make any sense at all. If you're looking at replacing a gas heater with one of these, the payback is longer. I don't think anyone makes a residential heat-pump with gas backing, so you go from a relatively cheap heat source to a more expensive one. There are add on things, and heat pump/gas hybrids exist for commercial operations. The management company my coop uses has told us if we replace the hot water boilers with a heat pump system, we'd pay back the capital costs in between two and three years, and book a savings of a few thousand dollars a year after that. (We have common hot water, paid for by the association, and people use a lot of it. ) Given the expected life of the system is a few decades (current system was installed in 1959, and works just fine), that's a substantial amount of savings. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 11:05:07 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (scott.hall.personal at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 18:05:07 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?Heat_pump_water_heaters=3F?= In-Reply-To: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> References: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com> Message-ID: <50b10c65.498fec0a.5dc1.fffff0ab@mx.google.com> I looked at them, and they (kind of) make sense for us because of a combination of factors: 1) No natural gas where I live. You can get propane, but itbs expensive. 2) Fairly steep electric rates. 3) The water heater is in the garage. I live in Florida. Ibve gotten fairly far along in the bhow do I economically put a/c in the garageb process. This would help somewhat. But so far I can only get them for something like $1200, and therebs noting wrong with my old water heater (yet, knock on wood). The water heater in the old house died, and I looked at solar first, just because it wasnbt too much more expensive and the payback is better. I think theybd make more sense if you lived in Arizona or south Florida--where I live wanting to a/c the garage is only a nine-month-per-year thing. The other three months it can get chilly and then itbd make no sense at all. If you live somewhere where you never use a heater at all, you could stick it in the house and itbd be great. But Ibm not excited about having the water heater ever work against the house heater, and itbd be less efficient in the garage in winter, and thatbs exactly when you want a water heater to get better, not worse. But during the summer, when the garage will get to 95 degrees and stay there for months at a time, yeah, it should do well. Ibm still up on the fence about how to do this right. Ibm leaning towards a hybrid solar/tankless or solar/heat pump now. Scott From: Dave C Sent: bNovemberb b24b, b2012 b1b:b47b bAM To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters? I must not get out enough. I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper. I never knew they existed. I understand how they work, and I guess if natural gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution looking for a problem. When my (12 year old) propane heater craps out we'll be getting another propane heater... Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 11:17:00 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (scott.hall.personal at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 18:17:00 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?Entirely_not_shop_related=2C_but=2E=2E=2E?= Message-ID: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com> You guys are geniuses, and I want a good answer. I have two computers, a Dell and an HP. The Dell picked up some nasty script things and I canbt get rid of them. I like overkill, so I want to format the hard drive and install Windows 8 over it. The HP I donbt use. It has an SSD in it. It seems like a waste to just have it sitting in a laptop I never use. Ibd like to take the SSD out of the HP and stick it in the Dell, and install Windows 8 on the SSD. I want nothing thatbs currently on the SSD. I just want Windows 8, and thatbs it. Ibd like to take the perfectly good HD out of the Dell and stick it in the HP. Same story with the Dell HD--I want nothing thatbs currently on it, and in fact would like to totally wipe it to kill off whatever malware is living on it. I have purchased Windows 8 Pro and installed it on the Dell already. So the platter HD has Win8 and is in the Dell. Ibd like to end up with the SSD in the Dell with Win8, and the platter HD in the HP, and I donbt really care if itbs got an OS on it at all--O use it so infrequently that the next time I need it Ibll buy Win8 online from MS and install it then. So...can yball walk me through how to do that? Misc. stuff that might be good to know: the drives are different capacities (I think), and Ibve tried to use a utility like EaseUS in the past and failed miserably. Can I just take the SSD from the HP, slide it in the Dell, install Win8 and thatbs that? Maybe put the platter HD then in the HP and download another license for Win8 from MS and thatbs that? The only reason that makes me think I canbt do this is that the Dell seems to have Dell-specific drivers on it that survived the Win8 installation, and that makes me think theybre important and that I need them and my plan to just slap the SSD in it might be over-simplifying things. So...can anyone tell me how to get the SSD into the Dell with the bare minimum on it I need to have it work? I just want Win8 and whatever drivers I absolutely need--all the files I needed from it are backed up on a separate drive. I could even just ignore putting the platter HD in the HP for now. I could just physically install it and fool with it another time. Hopefully I typed that in a way thatbs understandable. Thanks for the help, and after I finish this, I can go install the new shower in the garage. And then put in a new pump int he washing machine. Yay. Scott From Bob at texmog.com Sun Nov 25 17:32:34 2012 From: Bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:32:34 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum Message-ID: I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The tap calls for drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill the hole just a tad smaller? If so how much? Thanks Bob Nogueira (" Mr Gaskell, how much is a tad?". -- " more than a smidgen and less than a bit") ----The Patio Garage. 1963 From fishplate at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 19:03:40 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:03:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last one I did (in a TR6 transmission case) I drilled the hole 21/64. Worked just fine for me... Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Bob Nogueira wrote: > I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The tap calls for > drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill the hole just a > tad smaller? If so how much? > > Thanks Bob Nogueira > > (" Mr Gaskell, how much is a tad?". -- " more than a smidgen and less than a > bit") > ----The Patio Garage. 1963 > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com From greg at gelhar.com Sun Nov 25 20:50:20 2012 From: greg at gelhar.com (greg at gelhar.com) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:50:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3fb6f9888dbace284cd9be4ffe3ff726.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com> Looks like you ar installing a 5/16-24 Helicoil. Use the 21/64 drill. Trust the engineers that designed them. Greg G. Osseo, MN > I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The tap calls for > drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill the hole just > a > tad smaller? If so how much? From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Nov 25 20:57:43 2012 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:57:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm about to install a helicoil in an aluminum block. The > tap calls for > drilling a 21/64" hole. Since it is aluminum should I drill > the hole just a tad smaller? If so how much? I don't think it matters much. The tap seems to ream the hole out if it is undersize. I've even been known not to drill, if the hole is completely skinned out (and the base metal is soft). -- Randall From jem at milleredp.com Sun Nov 25 21:30:37 2012 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:30:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Helicoil in aluminum In-Reply-To: <3fb6f9888dbace284cd9be4ffe3ff726.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com> References: <3fb6f9888dbace284cd9be4ffe3ff726.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com> Message-ID: <50B2F06D.8040803@milleredp.com> On 11/25/2012 7:50 PM, greg at gelhar.com wrote: > Looks like you ar installing a 5/16-24 Helicoil. Use the 21/64 drill. > Trust the engineers that designed them. ...with a brief moment of consideration as to whether one really wants a fine thread in aluminum in the first place, and whether it wouldn't be possible to use 5/16-18 instead. John.