From pj_thomas at comcast.net Thu Mar 1 07:19:42 2012 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 09:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] OK, so which saw should I get for use in rehab... In-Reply-To: <4F4EA8BE.70308@teleport.com> References: <4F4EA8BE.70308@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4F4F857E.6090204@comcast.net> On 2/29/2012 5:37 PM, Richard George wrote: > Hi again, > > Back on the subject of the condo, I'm sorely lacking in power tools > and for what needs to get done (rip up and replace some laminate > flooring, redo a lot of the > base moulding, some other misc. work), and was trying to figure out > what kind saw I should get - I've got all the usual suspects (hand > saws, circular saw, several jigsaws, etc. but there seemed like there > was enough work involved to justify getting something to do the > mitering, cut laminate flooring, etc. I was thinking either a small > table saw or > one of those whizzy sliding compound miter saws > > Which would you choose? Normally I would recommend a table saw. You can cut miters with a table saw, but can't rip with a miter saw. However, sounds like you want something portable since it's a condo. Most of the inexpensive portable saws are of marginal quality. For the same money you would probably get a better quality miter saw than a table saw. If you are just cutting trim and flooring a decent miter saw and an inexpensive jig saw might be the way to go. You want precise miters, but the rips for flooring are usually covered with shoe moulding. > > A related question is about horrible freight tools. I see they have a > sliding compound miter saw that they regularly put on sale cheap - had > anybody had any > experience with these - are they worth a darn? Never bought anything harbor freight. I've been to one of their stores and pretty much decide never to buy anything from them. Though not as cheap as harbor freight, grizzly tools are less expensive than the big tool names and consistently get decent reviews. Peter Thomas > > Thanks, > > rkg > (Richard George) > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Thu Mar 1 09:01:45 2012 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:01:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] OK, so which saw should I get for use in rehab... In-Reply-To: <4F4F857E.6090204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20120301160146.RE62L.185093.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> A small miter saw will be very much better for molding and flooring. A table saw was one of the first power tools that I ever bought and I have used it a lot, but for cutting long pieces it is not very good. Plus it is not very portable. When we had wood flooring installed in our kitchen the installers brought a small miter saw and used it right where they were installing the flooring. They could measure a piece, reach over to the saw and cut it, and install it without having to move very far or even having to get up off of the floor. When I put new base moldings in our den I took the opportunity to buy my own miter saw. I put it outside but it was much better for cutting long pieces than a table saw, and I have tried this many times on my table saw. There are things that you can do with a table saw that you can't do with a miter saw, such as ripping boards and cutting wide pieces, but for cutting long pieces it will be difficult just to make the cuts but very difficult to get precise cuts. My contractor has the big DeWalt sliding miter saw and it will do a lot such as cutting fairly wide pieces, but it is also heavy and expensive. I compromised and bought a lesser brand that doesn't slide. Another thing is that a 10" saw would be fine for flooring and molding, but a 12" saw will cut slightly larger boards without much more expense. I bought a 12" Hitachi at Lowes for about $200. You can get cheap saws as low as $100, or the big DeWalt I mentioned that will cost about $600. > > Back on the subject of the condo, I'm sorely lacking in power tools > > and for what needs to get done (rip up and replace some laminate > > flooring, redo a lot of the > > base moulding, some other misc. work), and was trying to figure out > > what kind saw I should get - I've got all the usual suspects (hand > > saws, circular saw, several jigsaws, etc. but there seemed like there > > was enough work involved to justify getting something to do the > > mitering, cut laminate flooring, etc. I was thinking either a small > > table saw or > > one of those whizzy sliding compound miter saws From ronnie.day at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 09:37:37 2012 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 10:37:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] OK, so which saw should I get for use in rehab... In-Reply-To: <20120301160146.RE62L.185093.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> References: <4F4F857E.6090204@comcast.net> <20120301160146.RE62L.185093.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> Message-ID: The big (12 inch) sliding compound miter saws are very versatile, especially if you put them on the rolling stands. We have a Ridgid 12 that we bought about 5 years ago when we started our new place. Within a month we added the Ridgid MSUV (older version) because any of the 12 inch saws are very heavy. The newer model MSUV is much lighter, and should work with any brand saw. We even added 16 ft. 1 x 4s as auxiliary fences to allow for repetitive cuts on long studs, etc. The fences on the Ridgid had holes drilled making it easy to countersink carriage bolts in the 1 x 4s then using flat washers and wing nuts on the backside on the fence to hold them in place. We did need stand alone work supports for the longer pieces, but the ones built-in to the MSUV work great for most work. I highly recommend any of the big sliding saws when used with a rolling cart like the MSUV. FWIW, Ron On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 10:01 AM, wrote: > A small miter saw will be very much better for molding and flooring. A > table saw was one of the first power tools that I ever bought and I have > used it a lot, but for cutting long pieces it is not very good. Plus it is > not very portable. > > When we had wood flooring installed in our kitchen the installers brought > a small miter saw and used it right where they were installing the > flooring. They could measure a piece, reach over to the saw and cut it, > and install it without having to move very far or even having to get up off > of the floor. When I put new base moldings in our den I took the > opportunity to buy my own miter saw. I put it outside but it was much > better for cutting long pieces than a table saw, and I have tried this many > times on my table saw. > > There are things that you can do with a table saw that you can't do with a > miter saw, such as ripping boards and cutting wide pieces, but for cutting > long pieces it will be difficult just to make the cuts but very difficult > to get precise cuts. > > My contractor has the big DeWalt sliding miter saw and it will do a lot > such as cutting fairly wide pieces, but it is also heavy and expensive. I > compromised and bought a lesser brand that doesn't slide. Another thing is > that a 10" saw would be fine for flooring and molding, but a 12" saw will > cut slightly larger boards without much more expense. I bought a 12" > Hitachi at Lowes for about $200. You can get cheap saws as low as $100, or > the big DeWalt I mentioned that will cost about $600. > > > > Back on the subject of the condo, I'm sorely lacking in power tools > > > and for what needs to get done (rip up and replace some laminate > > > flooring, redo a lot of the > > > base moulding, some other misc. work), and was trying to figure out > > > what kind saw I should get - I've got all the usual suspects (hand > > > saws, circular saw, several jigsaws, etc. but there seemed like there > > > was enough work involved to justify getting something to do the > > > mitering, cut laminate flooring, etc. I was thinking either a small > > > table saw or > > > one of those whizzy sliding compound miter saws > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com From battmain at yahoo.com Thu Mar 1 09:42:14 2012 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 08:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] OT favor In-Reply-To: <3eceec3c.129db.135cb40755b.Webtop.43@charter.net> References: <3eceec3c.129db.135cb40755b.Webtop.43@charter.net> Message-ID: <1330620134.53751.YahooMailNeo@web160103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I think the request should also go to your contact list and direct them to any of the free online scanners/cleaners. Then you can help them clean up their machine. As posted, your email can be harvested and make it appear the messages are coming from you. Nothing like getting spam from yourself. Grrrr! B >________________________________ > From: Tim >To: datsun-roadsters: autox.team.net ; shop-talk at autox.team.net >Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 5:34 PM >Subject: [Shop-talk] OT favor > >We ahve all seen the hijacked emails (be them direct hack, malware, >spoof, or something else) lately coming from members of this forum. > >So, PLEASE, if you seen that crap coming from my email adderss, in any >shape or form, AGAIN PLEASE, let me know. > >I try to make sure i am clean, but you never know if you are beign >spoofed. > >Thanks!! > >tim >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/battmain at yahoo.com From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Thu Mar 1 14:57:49 2012 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:57:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT favor In-Reply-To: <1330620134.53751.YahooMailNeo@web160103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <3eceec3c.129db.135cb40755b.Webtop.43@charter.net>, <1330620134.53751.YahooMailNeo@web160103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I saw the suggestion years ago, it might have been on team.net, that you add a bogus email address at the beginning and end of your address book.That way if someone sends messages to everyone in your address book you will be bounced messages. Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 08:42:14 -0800 > From: battmain at yahoo.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT favor > > I think the request should also go to your contact list and direct them to any > of the free > online scanners/cleaners. Then you can help them clean up their > machine. As posted, your email > can be harvested and make it appear > the messages are coming from you. > > Nothing like getting spam from yourself. > Grrrr! > > B > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Tim > > >To: datsun-roadsters: autox.team.net > ; shop-talk at autox.team.net > >Sent: Wednesday, > February 29, 2012 5:34 PM > >Subject: [Shop-talk] OT favor > > > >We ahve all seen > the hijacked emails (be them direct hack, malware, > >spoof, or something > else) lately coming from members of this forum. > > > >So, PLEASE, if you seen > that crap coming from my email adderss, in any > >shape or form, AGAIN PLEASE, > let me know. > > > >I try to make sure i am clean, but you never know if you are > beign > >spoofed. > > > >Thanks!! > > > >tim > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net > >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Suggested annual donation $12.96 > >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > >Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/battmain at yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From jibjib at att.net Thu Mar 1 22:21:48 2012 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 21:21:48 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] fan forced wall heaters - is there a noise comparisonanywhere? In-Reply-To: <4F4EA653.2050103@teleport.com> References: <4F4EA653.2050103@teleport.com> Message-ID: <779657CBFC944009A341693E799EFE93@EntCentPC> Richard, I have rentals with the fan powered, in wall Cadet heaters. They had some issues with the thermal overload switches back in the early 2000's, but they are pretty much commodities at this point. Match up your required BTU's and run with it. Like a furnace, if you size it too large, it will short cycle and not heat the space evenly. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard George Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:28 PM To: shoptalk Subject: [Shop-talk] fan forced wall heaters - is there a noise comparisonanywhere? Hi, I'm in the process of buying a condo to use as a rental - the unit has a lot of "issues", including a giant 8' electric baseboard heater that needs to be replaced (the unit isn't that big, and it eats up a big chunk of the wall in the living room area) - rather than burn the space along the wall, I was considering changing this to (a) forced fan wall heater(s) of some type. That's where the fun begins - I've done a LOT of searching online, and there seems to be no comparisons of these units. Does anybody have much experience with these units? is there any comparisons of these units out there that cover the "typical" stuff - reliability, fan noise, effectiveness, strengths/ weaknesses, etc? Should I be looking at something completely different (within the constraint that I gotta use electricity for the heat source)? I think I 'd need a 2-3 KW unit to replace the baseboard heater, and might swap out another smaller one in the dining room, etc. Thanks, rkg (Richard George) _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From strovato at optonline.net Fri Mar 2 07:55:53 2012 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:55:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to make a clamp In-Reply-To: <779657CBFC944009A341693E799EFE93@EntCentPC> References: <4F4EA653.2050103@teleport.com> <779657CBFC944009A341693E799EFE93@EntCentPC> Message-ID: <0M0900CSKIV69K90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> When fabricating various things out of metal around the shop, sometimes I want some part to clamp to some other part. Suppose I have a U shaped part I want to slide over a piece of square tubing and hold in place. I can make a hole in the side of the U, tap it or weld a nut on, and tighten a bolt in to create a clamping force. This, of course, works and I see stuff done like this. While effective, the clamping force is concentrated in a small point and the bolt turns while clamping, so this can be a bit hard on the underlying tube. Suppose I wanted to take this to the next level, and have some kind of foot on the bottom of the bolt like a real C clamp. This would involve something like a ball joint that allows the bolt to turn independent of the foot while keeping the foot from just falling off, again, like a real C clamp. The question is, are there any somewhat generic parts available for creating things like this? It could be something that gets welded to a bolt, or a bolt with a ball end and a matching socket. This is just for shop stuff so I'm not interested in starting a custom machining project. I thought about cannibalizing a C clamp, but the thread is different (acme) and they aren't exactly designed to be disassembled. I feel like there should be something for this purpose at McMaster-Carr or someplace similar, but so far I haven't found it. Any thoughts? Thanks. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From darmstrong at nexicom.net Fri Mar 2 08:58:01 2012 From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (darmstrong at nexicom.net) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:58:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to make a clamp Message-ID: <4f50ee09.7e67.43777940.2c8ee447@nexicom.net> You might find what you are looking for at Carr Lane http://carrlane.com/catalog/index.cfm At the link below are Leveling Feet & Swivel Pads http://carrlane.com/catalog/index.cfm/26605071F0B021118070C1C510D020609090C00 15480013180B041D1E173C1B085356 You may find other suitable items at this site. Doug Armstrong On Friday 02/03/2012 at 9:57 am, Steven Trovato wrote: > When fabricating various things out of metal around the shop, > sometimes I want some part to clamp to some other part. Suppose I > have a U shaped part I want to slide over a piece of square tubing > and hold in place. I can make a hole in the side of the U, tap it > or weld a nut on, and tighten a bolt in to create a clamping > force. This, of course, works and I see stuff done like this. While > effective, the clamping force is concentrated in a small point and > the bolt turns while clamping, so this can be a bit hard on the > underlying tube. Suppose I wanted to take this to the next level, > and have some kind of foot on the bottom of the bolt like a real C > clamp. This would involve something like a ball joint that allows > the bolt to turn independent of the foot while keeping the foot from > just falling off, again, like a real C clamp. The question is, are > there any somewhat generic parts available for creating things like > this? It could be something that gets welded to a bolt, or a bolt > with a ball end and a matching socket. This is just for shop stuff > so I'm not interested in starting a custom machining project. I > thought about cannibalizing a C clamp, but the thread is different > (acme) and they aren't exactly designed to be disassembled. I feel > like there should be something for this purpose at McMaster-Carr or > someplace similar, but so far I haven't found it. Any thoughts? > Thanks. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darmstrong at nexicom.net From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Mar 2 09:03:37 2012 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:03:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to make a clamp In-Reply-To: <0M0900CSKIV69K90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <4F4EA653.2050103@teleport.com><779657CBFC944009A341693E799EFE93@EntCentPC> <0M0900CSKIV69K90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <04be01ccf88e$07483940$0301a8c0@randall> > are > there any somewhat generic parts available for creating things like > this? I'm not aware of any. But I found it very easy to make one out of Delrin rod. Drill to slightly smaller than your ball, then use a die grinder or Dremel with a ball-end burr to open up the interior of the hole some. Doesn't need to be perfect. Then turn a ball on the end of your screw, and force it into the hole. -- Randall From strovato at optonline.net Fri Mar 2 09:08:09 2012 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 11:08:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to make a clamp In-Reply-To: <4f50ee09.7e67.43777940.2c8ee447@nexicom.net> References: <4f50ee09.7e67.43777940.2c8ee447@nexicom.net> Message-ID: <0M09007MVM7KNAT0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Cool. This site has some interesting stuff. Thanks. -Steve At 10:58 AM 3/2/2012, darmstrong at nexicom.net wrote: >You might find what you are looking for at Carr Lane > >http://carrlane.com/catalog/index.cfm > >At the link below are Leveling Feet & Swivel Pads > >http://carrlane.com/catalog/index.cfm/26605071F0B021118070C1C510D020609090C0015480013180B041D1E173C1B085356 > >You may find other suitable items at this site. > >Doug Armstrong From fishplate at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 09:49:21 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:49:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance Message-ID: So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some period of time - like a garage door operator light. I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 2 09:53:44 2012 From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1330707224.82716.YahooMailNeo@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How about a motion sensor light? >________________________________ > From: Jeff Scarbrough >To: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" >Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 10:49 AM >Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance > >So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the >house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch >light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some >period of time - like a garage door operator light. > >I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a >time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch >goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. > >Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? > >Jeff Scarbrough >Corrosion Acres, Ga. >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mistertwo at sbcglobal.net From bjzwissler at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 09:56:01 2012 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:56:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd put a motion sensing light in. It will come on when you exit and most of them have programmable delays for how long it will take to go off after its no longer detecting motion. As a bonus, it will come on if you approach the shop from the house. They usually have ambient light sensors that stop them from coming on during daylight hours. Of course roaming animals will also turn it on. Ben..... On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the > house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch > light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some > period of time - like a garage door operator light. > > I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a > time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch > goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. > > Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net Fri Mar 2 09:59:34 2012 From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:59:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <366182428.809606.1330707574017.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Jeff, Without knowing more about the shop and switch location I'm not sure it will work, but what about something like this? http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-PR180-1LW-Incandescent-Infrared-Occupancy/dp/B0007N737S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330707179&sr=8-1 It's a light switch with an occupancy sensor. You can use it as a manual on-off switch, and it has an occupancy sensor with a user-selectable time delay that will turn the light off when the room is no longer occupied. Turn it on manually when you're in the shop, turn it to auto when you leave and wave your hand in front of it so it knows you're there and turns on. That will give you up to 15 minutes to get back home before the light goes out. I used one of these in a bathroom when my kids were younger and kept leaving the lights on. It worked like a charm. I bought mine at Home Depot. Good luck. Tom FitzGibbon Scotch Plains, NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Scarbrough" To: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 11:49:21 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some period of time - like a garage door operator light. I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net From gsteve at hammatt.com Fri Mar 2 10:14:14 2012 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:14:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0AB7AD02CC1B45818820F83AAF597CD7@DesktopPC> Howe 'bout something like this http://www.uxcell.com/light-lamp-energy-saving-time-delay-lag-wall-switch-white-p-164186.html Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Scarbrough Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:49 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some period of time - like a garage door operator light. I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4846 - Release Date: 03/02/12 From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Mar 2 10:55:12 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:55:12 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <1330707224.82716.YahooMailNeo@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1330707224.82716.YahooMailNeo@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <026201ccf89d$9e438200$daca8600$@rr.com> >> I'd like to switch off the porch >> light over the shop steps, > How about a motion sensor light? Possibly too obvious for words, but JIC: Being outdoors, a motion sensor will pick up all sorts of things other than you walking away from the shop, and turn the light back on. Especially if there are trees or anything that can move with the wind. This isn't exactly inexpensive, but might work: http://goo.gl/N8HTP Here's a slightly less expensive version of the same thing: http://goo.gl/gQw5g -- Randall From pethier at comcast.net Fri Mar 2 10:57:43 2012 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:57:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <0AB7AD02CC1B45818820F83AAF597CD7@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <1391979068.1947201.1330711063607.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Many years ago at our old house, I had one of these on the outside light on my garage and one on the outside light on my house. It looked like an ordinary switch, and the switch itself was no bigger than an ordinary SPST switch. Fit in the box easily, and used the standard cover plate. I'm sure the delay was mechanical. You would just push the switch down and the light would stay on. No noise at all. A few minutes later, you would hear a normal click and the light would go off. Turning on the light was normal. I don't know if these are still around (I have motion lights at my new place). I know I didn't have to search for them, just bought them at Menard's and installed them in place of the existing ordinary SPST switches. I wouldn't get crazy with circuitry until I researched whether these are still available. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" > To: "Jeff Scarbrough" , "shop-talk at autox.team.net" > Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 11:14:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance > Howe 'bout something like this > http://www.uxcell.com/light-lamp-energy-saving-time-delay-lag-wall-switch-white-p-164186.html > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Scarbrough > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:49 AM > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance > > So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the > house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch > light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some > period of time - like a garage door operator light. > > I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a > time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch > goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. > > Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. From brabel at comcast.net Fri Mar 2 11:01:33 2012 From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:01:33 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <0AB7AD02CC1B45818820F83AAF597CD7@DesktopPC> References: <0AB7AD02CC1B45818820F83AAF597CD7@DesktopPC> Message-ID: You could build your own , although this is 220V. There are a few light/fan switches that do this, such as - Bill Rabel Anacortes, WA On Mar 2, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: > Howe 'bout something like this > http://www.uxcell.com/light-lamp-energy-saving-time-delay-lag-wall-switch-whi te-p-164186.html > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA > -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Scarbrough > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:49 AM > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance > > So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the > house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch > light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some > period of time - like a garage door operator light. > > I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a > time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch > goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. > > Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4846 - Release Date: 03/02/12 _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/brabel at comcast.net From bobkegel at comcast.net Fri Mar 2 11:42:18 2012 From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:42:18 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6A21C7FA988643C7B64994E02147FF29@robertve2wc7wm> This switch is designed to turn on a bathroom light and fan but keep the fan running for a pre-set time after the light is turned off. Perhaps it would meet your needs if you hooked the porch light the fan contacts. http://www.conservationmart.com/p-735-efi-fanlight-time-delay-switch-501.asp x From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 13:17:52 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:17:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F512AF0.6000005@gmail.com> Which will eventually, over time, drive you stark raving mad. There's one of these in every garage door opener int he country. Surely there's one available at McMaster et al? I'd search, but I am generally acknowledged as the last person on this planet to not be able to find anything with Google. On 3/2/2012 11:56 AM, Benjamin Zwissler wrote: > Of course roaming > animals will also turn it on. From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Fri Mar 2 13:53:56 2012 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 20:53:56 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <026201ccf89d$9e438200$daca8600$@rr.com> References: <1330707224.82716.YahooMailNeo@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <026201ccf89d$9e438200$daca8600$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4F513364.5040206@talktalk.net> I thought motion sensors were mostly Passive InfraRed - so don't get set off by trees. And the sensitivity can normally be set so that cats don't trigger them. Man sized animals might be a different issue (but then it might be good to be able to see if there is something like a bear hanging around...) Neil On 02/03/2012 17:55, Randall wrote: >>> I'd like to switch off the porch >>> light over the shop steps, >> How about a motion sensor light? > Possibly too obvious for words, but JIC: Being outdoors, a motion sensor > will pick up all sorts of things other than you walking away from the shop, > and turn the light back on. Especially if there are trees or anything that > can move with the wind. > > This isn't exactly inexpensive, but might work: > http://goo.gl/N8HTP > Here's a slightly less expensive version of the same thing: > http://goo.gl/gQw5g > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From strovato at optonline.net Fri Mar 2 14:08:38 2012 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:08:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <4F512AF0.6000005@gmail.com> References: <4F512AF0.6000005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0M0A00MP605PUA30@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> There are always these spring wound timer switches, often used for bath fans: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM2798424002P This one does not have a position to just stay on. I remember seeing some that you turn past a certain point and they stay on forever. Don't know if that's important to you. These are cheap (<$20) and reliable, with no electronics involved. They do make a slight ticking noise which might be a problem if it's in a library, but probably not a big deal in your application. As for the motion sensor, if you use one where you can aim the sensor, you can pretty much eliminate the passing animal problem by just aiming the sensor right at the ground in front of the door. You would set it off on your way out, but unless a deer comes to ring your doorbell, neither they nor you will turn the light on as you approach. This may be OK for you, as you weren't looking for that capability in the first place, you just wanted the light to go out on a timer. One complaint I have about the motion sensor lights is that power irregularities can set them into odd states. I know some will stay on forever if you flick the wall switch off and on again. It seems that sometimes a power hit can convince the device that this is what you did. Not a big deal if the light stays on once in a while, but if it's somewhere unattended like a vacation home, it might be a problem. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 03:17 PM 3/2/2012, Scott wrote: >Which will eventually, over time, drive you stark raving mad. > >There's one of these in every garage door opener int he country. >Surely there's one available at McMaster et al? > >I'd search, but I am generally acknowledged as the last person on >this planet to not be able to find anything with Google. > >On 3/2/2012 11:56 AM, Benjamin Zwissler wrote: >>Of course roaming >>animals will also turn it on. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Mar 2 16:40:41 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:40:41 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <4F513364.5040206@talktalk.net> References: <1330707224.82716.YahooMailNeo@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <026201ccf89d$9e438200$daca8600$@rr.com> <4F513364.5040206@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <02bd01ccf8cd$e1e50ad0$a5af2070$@rr.com> > I thought motion sensors were mostly Passive InfraRed - so don't get > set off by trees. Maybe I've got the wrong kind, then. I've got three of them, all called "infrared", all aimed at the ground nearby and with the sensitivity turned way down. The one nearest the driveway is turned down so far that I can just about walk up and touch it before the light goes on. But they all trigger occasionally for no apparent reason, much more so when it's windy. The one in the backyard will stay on almost continuously if there is a sheet on the clothesline nearby. The one on the front porch did get a lot better when I trimmed back the Jasmine bush, though. -- Randall From elans4 at cox.net Fri Mar 2 19:30:36 2012 From: elans4 at cox.net (Mullen) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:30:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <02bd01ccf8cd$e1e50ad0$a5af2070$@rr.com> References: <1330707224.82716.YahooMailNeo@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <026201ccf89d$9e438200$daca8600$@rr.com> <4F513364.5040206@talktalk.net> <02bd01ccf8cd$e1e50ad0$a5af2070$@rr.com> Message-ID: <000f01ccf8e5$9db3fe80$d91bfb80$@net> Here's a couple of possibly interesting switches: Mechanical timer with a hold switch: http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/3306/ELEC-FD60MHW.html Electronic timer with on/off override: http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/7458/WS-RT50W.html Search on the internet with "time delay switch light" turned these up... Tim Mullen From bk13 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 2 20:17:56 2012 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:17:56 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F518D64.3020808@earthlink.net> Jeff - Others have provided some replacement timer switch links, but the ones I checked seem expensive. Here are a pair for under $20 that you can get off the shelf at the orange box Below are two sample links or go to http://www.homedepot.com and search for "timers" then click electrical to see what is local for you. I can get at least 4 under $20. http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Home-Automation-Security-Home-Automation-Dimmers-Lighting-Controls-Timers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbmkf/R-202788262/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Home-Automation-Security-Home-Automation-Dimmers-Lighting-Controls-Timers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbmkf/R-202586146/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 I have a 30 minute version of the GE one that worked great for the bath fan. There is one button that is on/off or in either state, you can hit one of the time buttons and the light will turn off after that length of time. Brian On 3/2/2012 8:49 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the > house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch > light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some > period of time - like a garage door operator light. > > I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a > time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch > goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. > > Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Fri Mar 2 20:37:14 2012 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:37:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <1391979068.1947201.1330711063607.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <0AB7AD02CC1B45818820F83AAF597CD7@DesktopPC>, <1391979068.1947201.1330711063607.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Back in the early '90s we had a switch that did just what you want. I got it at Menards or maybe Ace. Like Phil I do not know if they still exist. Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:57:43 +0000 > From: pethier at comcast.net > To: gsteve at hammatt.com > CC: Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance > > Many years ago at our old house, I had one of these on the outside light on my garage and one on the outside light on my house. It looked like an ordinary switch, and the switch itself was no bigger than an ordinary SPST switch. Fit in the box easily, and used the standard cover plate. I'm sure the delay was mechanical. You would just push the switch down and the light would stay on. No noise at all. A few minutes later, you would hear a normal click and the light would go off. Turning on the light was normal. From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Mar 2 20:39:58 2012 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:39:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F51928E.8080509@frontier.com> I'll add another vote for the Intermatic twist timers. I have installed these in a number of bathroom fan applications and they work fine. Inexpensive, reliable and easy to install. Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the > house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch > light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some > period of time - like a garage door operator light. > > I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a > time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch > goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. > > Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From pethier at comcast.net Fri Mar 2 21:52:21 2012 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 04:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <0M0A00MP605PUA30@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1339136771.1974194.1330750341021.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> > One complaint I have about the motion sensor lights is that power > irregularities can set them into odd states. I know some will stay > on forever if you flick the wall switch off and on again. It seems > that sometimes a power hit can convince the device that this is what > you did. Not a big deal if the light stays on once in a while, but > if it's somewhere unattended like a vacation home, it might be a > problem. I have one a motion-sensor light by my garage side door. B I also have low-voltage under-cabinet lights in my kitchen. B 9 times out of 10, when I turn off the under-cabinet lights, the garage light comes on. B This never happens with the other lights in the kitchen. B I figure the fields collapse on the two transformers and send a noise pulse through the house wiring. Once in a while, I must get lucky and zero-switch it. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://www.mnautox.com From jibjib at att.net Fri Mar 2 21:53:16 2012 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:53:16 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: <4F51928E.8080509@frontier.com> References: <4F51928E.8080509@frontier.com> Message-ID: Yes, yes, yes. Simple, durable mechanical Intermatic timers, available in a number to different time ranges. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David C. Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:40 PM To: Jeff Scarbrough Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance I'll add another vote for the Intermatic twist timers. I have installed these in a number of bathroom fan applications and they work fine. Inexpensive, reliable and easy to install. Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > So, here's a shop-related question...My shop is some distance from the > house, and in a semi-rural location. I'd like to switch off the porch > light over the shop steps, but have it remain illuminated for some > period of time - like a garage door operator light. > > I can find any number of ways to keep the light from coming on for a > time after the switch is flipped, but keeping it on after the switch > goes off seems a bit tougher - for obvious reasons. > > Anyone got any simple, inexpensive ideas? > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From fishplate at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 09:00:35 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 11:00:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: <0AB7AD02CC1B45818820F83AAF597CD7@DesktopPC> Message-ID: Of all the suggestions, I think this is the one I favor, from Bill Rabel and others: > There are a few light/fan switches that do this, such as > Kind of pricey, but offers the advantage of keeping the light on steadily, so that visitors will feel welcome, and then a time delay when switched off is just what I need. This switch, form Tim Mullen seems to do the same thing, but is a bit more complicated in operation. I don't think I'll need the variable timing once it's set. > Electronic timer with on/off override: > http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/7458/WS-RT50W.html The DIY circuit was a close second, though the delay as drawn is a bit short. I don't think I can scamper to the house in 15 seconds any more...and it doesn't seem possible to extend it much in that configuration. We have both the spring switches and the electronic motion-detector switches at work in our bathrooms. They will do what I want, but don't have the easy operation of the bathroom fan switch. Even the spring switch is about $20, though. Still, it's half the cost of the first solution. So, it comes down to cost vs. ease of use. Welcome to the Engineering Department.... Thanks for all the suggestions. This has been quite an illuminating discussion. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From mark at bradakis.com Sun Mar 4 03:47:19 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 03:47:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Team.Net forums Message-ID: <20120304104719.2BC862E0A2@bradakis.com> Okay, I think that the forums are back online. Check out http://www.team.net/forums and see if it behaves as you expect. Remember that the forum login/password is completely independent of your mailing list password. If you want to post you have to be a registered user. Anyone can look, no problem. Any problems, comments or whatever let me know. mjb. From dreinsch at swbell.net Sun Mar 4 07:09:21 2012 From: dreinsch at swbell.net (Dwade Reinsch) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 06:09:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Team.Net forums In-Reply-To: <20120304104719.2BC862E0A2@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <1330870161.64799.YahooMailClassic@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks!! (again), Mark, for making the lists work. Yo da man! --- On Sun, 3/4/12, Mark J Bradakis wrote: From: Mark J Bradakis Subject: [Shop-talk] Team.Net forums To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 4:47 AM Okay, I think that the forums are back online. Check out http://www.team.net/forums and see if it behaves as you expect. Remember that the forum login/password is completely independent of your mailing list password. If you want to post you have to be a registered user. Anyone can look, no problem. Any problems, comments or whatever let me know. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dreinsch at swbell.net From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Sun Mar 4 14:29:35 2012 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 15:29:35 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Light delay for shop entrance In-Reply-To: References: , <0AB7AD02CC1B45818820F83AAF597CD7@DesktopPC>, , Message-ID: http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/wiring-devices/dimmer-fan-controls/fae dra-duo-sp-600w-dimmer/p-1730690-c-6322.htm This seems to do what you want. Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From jniolon at att.net Wed Mar 7 19:08:28 2012 From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:08:28 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question Message-ID: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> my work computer took a dump... it would not access the internet even though the wireless modem and the hot spot card were talking... took it to the geek squad and they said it was full of viruses and one of them ate my op system files and the proxy config for the internet... asked why my avg virus didn't catch it... they said they (the virus writers) write them to get past them... well duh... so I'm getting a new box... but I'm wondering what software I can find to clean up the old system and make it useable again... anything I can download (without a virus) that might work at cleaning it up... I run my avg and keep it up to date... use malware and spyware watchers also... I'm still wondering what happened... I'm not as savy as I used to be on this stuff... suggestions or offers of rope to tie to this anchor... tia john I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ? From racertod at racertodd.com Wed Mar 7 19:47:23 2012 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 18:47:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20120307184302.00bc4270@mail.avvanta.com> John wrote: >so I'm getting a new box... but I'm wondering what software I can find to >clean up the old system and make it useable again. Do you have the Windows install disk and license key that came with the old machine? If so, wiping the disk and reinstalling Windows will give you a clean install with no viruses remaining. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 274,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 329,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 7 19:51:46 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:51:46 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <07f301ccfcd6$67561f40$36025dc0$@rr.com> If it's that bad, then reinstalling from original CDs may be the only viable option. But you can try this: http://goo.gl/53rMH (which points to ) -- Randall From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 19:58:36 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:58:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:08 PM, John Niolon wrote: > so I'm getting a new box... but I'm wondering what software I can find to > clean up the old system and make it useable again... anything I can download > (without a virus) that might work at cleaning it up... I run my avg and keep > it up to date... use malware and spyware watchers also... I'm still wondering > what happened... In addition to what others have said, here's a link to a site I find useful for all sorts of real-world computer problems... http://ask-leo.com And for you, this: http://ask-leo.com/internet_safety_how_do_i_keep_my_computer_safe_on_the_inte rnet.html Have a shufti at that, as they say, and see if Leo can help. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 20:00:28 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:00:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20120307184302.00bc4270@mail.avvanta.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <5.1.0.14.2.20120307184302.00bc4270@mail.avvanta.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Todd Walke wrote: > Do you have the Windows install disk and license key that came with > the old machine? Leo to the rescue: From mark at bradakis.com Wed Mar 7 20:28:44 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 20:28:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <4F58276C.4050308@bradakis.com> John Niolon wrote: > so I'm getting a new box... but I'm wondering what software I can find to > clean up the old system and make it useable again... Linux? mjb. From strovato at optonline.net Wed Mar 7 20:51:26 2012 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 22:51:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <0M0J00A9OS4YFE11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I am always suspicious when the repair guy says something can't be fixed and then the same guy sells you a new one. I had this happen with my home heat pump. Repair guy said "you need a new one" as soon as he heard it was over ten years old. Had it recharged and it has been running fine for another year. I have no reason to say that your geek squad guys are dishonest, but I like to keep my repair guys independent from the new product suppliers. -Steven Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 09:08 PM 3/7/2012, John Niolon wrote: >my work computer took a dump... it would not access the internet even though >the wireless modem and the hot spot card were talking... took it to the geek >squad and they said it was full of viruses and one of them ate my op system >files and the proxy config for the internet... > >asked why my avg virus didn't catch it... they said they (the virus writers) >write them to get past them... well duh... > >so I'm getting a new box... From tvacc at lotusowners.com Wed Mar 7 21:41:05 2012 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:41:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> Hi John I do this sort of thing every day. I did 3 today and have 2 more running when I left my shop. You need to find someone that really knows what they are doing. We really know what we are doing and I would estimate that in the past 12 months we maybe have not been able to fix 2, that required a system reinstall. The Big box guys send people to us all the time, because we are that good. We could fix it remotely as long as you still have an connection to the internet, and you might even though you cannot get on. But I don't want to make is seem I am using the list to get business. I am not, Just trying to help you out if you are really stuck. We normally charge $99 flat rate (this is 1/2 the rate of the big box stores) If you want, I will fix it for half that as I will give my end up, but we have a rule here that my son and I can do stuff for free for each of our friends, but we cannot give away the other persons money. Anyways, either find someone local that really knows their stuff or you can give us a call. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Niolon Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 9:08 PM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question my work computer took a dump... it would not access the internet even though the wireless modem and the hot spot card were talking... took it to the geek squad and they said it was full of viruses and one of them ate my op system files and the proxy config for the internet... asked why my avg virus didn't catch it... they said they (the virus writers) write them to get past them... well duh... so I'm getting a new box... but I'm wondering what software I can find to clean up the old system and make it useable again... anything I can download (without a virus) that might work at cleaning it up... I run my avg and keep it up to date... use malware and spyware watchers also... I'm still wondering what happened... I'm not as savy as I used to be on this stuff... suggestions or offers of rope to tie to this anchor... tia john I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 8 06:52:03 2012 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:52:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> Message-ID: > asked why my avg virus didn't catch it... they said they (the virus writers) > write them to get past them... well duh... If they are relatively sophisticated, then yes... they also write them to not interfere much with your system and lay low - if you're a leech, you want to keep the host alive... sounds like what you have is a bunch of spyware. I'd say a reinstall of the OS is the best way to solve this. And when you do, don't use the system for daily activities while running as the admin account. Very common problem, and easy to fix. Create a new account and use that for web browsing, and for clicking on those links that you just can't resist :-). Switch over to the admin account with a strong password when you need to install something, etc. One of the first things you should install should be a decent AV program (some free ones are OK if you're on a budget) like Avira, and a Spyware "cleaner". In the old days when I made house calls, Ad-aware by Lavasoft was the best, Malwarebytes is probably another. I'm not going to get into a religious discussion about the best browser, but Google Chrome (on Ubuntu) works well for me, and has a pretty good security reputation. Good luck PJ From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 07:23:55 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:23:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> Message-ID: <4F58C0FB.1020609@gmail.com> Awesome!!! Cue The Browser Wars of Religion!!! :-) I keeeed. I use Firefox, but I also like Opera, and Chrome wasn't awful (I just got habituated to where all the buttons are in Firefox). Our I.T. guy LOVES I.E. But then he's an MCSETPWHTPASHGPDGHLASOPEIPQQX or something. Microsoft does nothing he doesn't love. :-) On 3/8/2012 8:52 AM, PJ McGarvey wrote: >> asked why my avg virus didn't catch it... they said they (the virus > writers) >> write them to get past them... well duh... > If they are relatively sophisticated, then yes... they also write them to not > interfere much with your system and lay low - if you're a leech, you want to > keep the host alive... > > sounds like what you have is a bunch of spyware. I'd say a reinstall of the > OS is the best way to solve this. And when you do, don't use the system for > daily activities while running as the admin account. Very common problem, and > easy to fix. Create a new account and use that for web browsing, and for > clicking on those links that you just can't resist :-). Switch over to the > admin account with a strong password when you need to install something, etc. > > One of the first things you should install should be a decent AV program (some > free ones are OK if you're on a budget) like Avira, and a Spyware "cleaner". > In the old days when I made house calls, Ad-aware by Lavasoft was the best, > Malwarebytes is probably another. I'm not going to get into a religious > discussion about the best browser, but Google Chrome (on Ubuntu) works well > for me, and has a pretty good security reputation. From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Thu Mar 8 07:27:25 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:27:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop Message-ID: Hi gang, I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. Our detached garage is about 150 feet from the panel in the house and I would like to make the run underground. Here are the things I'm doing, if you can think of something I'm missing please let me know! -- One-call to flag/paint buried obstacles: Done, no obstacles in path. -- Pull permit. Not done yet, but will do prior to digging. -- Landscaper - will trench 18" down one day, then come back to fill, top-dress and seed after inspections. -- Electrician - 60A breaker on 200A panel in basement will feed through basement wall above ground, then enter conduit down into trench, conduit all the way to the garage, then electricity will enter garage above ground into a 60A panel. There will be a second conduit containing low-voltage cable (RG-6) and Ethernet (Cat-5 I already have, two runs of it). I'm also going to have him run a pull string in this conduit, just in case I need to run something else in the future. -- Generator: I have an 8000/13500W steady/startup generator in the garage. My thought is to run it in the garage to power the house when needed. I like that this would let me run it away from the house (noise, fumes), but also secure it (covered, locked, well ventilated). The electrician looked at it and said he could: use an interlock ( interlockkit.com) at the house panel so power either comes from the street or the generator via conductor #2, but not both. Conductor #1 is the line from the 60A breaker in the basement panel to the garage main breaker. In the garage, conductor #2 connects to a 4-prong 240V receptacle where I would plug in the generator. The electrician said he would use a transfer switch the garage panel power source between the house (conductor #1) and the generator (the 4-prong plug). This method means there are two conductor wires in the trench. We looked at the cost of a 3-way switch at the house panel using only one conductor line, but that proved to be about 3-times as much as just running a second conductor wire. In the garage I plan to have a garage door opener, some over head lights on the first and 2nd floor, some outdoor floods, a panel TV, and a 20A circuit to run one power tool at a time (e.g., table saw). I'm not going to run compressed hour in this shop as I find I use the portable compressor only 3 or 4 times a year. Any feedback on the wiring, other choices, or nice-to-have's that I might be missing would be appreciated. Thanks, Ian From ronnie.day at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 07:35:29 2012 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:35:29 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> Message-ID: As others have mentioned, it's occasionally better to just wipe the drive and reinstall everything. I use AVG or Kaspersky on my Windows boxes and have them set to update and scan every night at 3 am. On my MacBook laptop, set up for dual boot into either OSX or Windows using Bootcamp, whenever I boot into the Windows partition, AVG automatically updates immediately. Am I paranoid? You bet! On my Macs I don't run run anything. So far, no problems with any of them. I'll probably switch to Kaspersky on the MacBook when/if I update it from XP to Windows 7, but since I use that side of it primarily for Streets & Trips when we travel and Visio, I'm not in a huge hurry. The past couple of weeks Fry's has had both AVG and Kaspersky essentially free. Check out their ads on Fridays at . If you haven't bought your new box you might want to consider a Mac.If the one that's hosed isn't too old just wipe the drive and start over. FWIW, Ron From ronnie.day at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 07:37:23 2012 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:37:23 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58C0FB.1020609@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C0FB.1020609@gmail.com> Message-ID: I really like Chrome, on both Windows and Macs. RD On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Scott wrote: > Awesome!!! Cue The Browser Wars of Religion!!! :-) > > I keeeed. I use Firefox, but I also like Opera, and Chrome wasn't awful > (I just got habituated to where all the buttons are in Firefox). Our I.T. > guy LOVES I.E. But then he's an MCSETPWHTPASHGPDGHLASOPEIPQQX or > something. Microsoft does nothing he doesn't love. :-) From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 8 07:38:14 2012 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:38:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: phone line? Any feedback on the wiring, other choices, or nice-to-have's that I might > be missing would be appreciated. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 07:44:30 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:44:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> Message-ID: <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand cue the Wars of the OS/Platform. (I want to put Linux on a box. No idea where to start. Macs seem like they're for the feeble-minded and fanbois. There, that ought to get things started nicely. :-) ) On 3/8/2012 9:35 AM, Ronnie Day wrote: > If you haven't bought your new box you might want to consider a Mac. From jblair1948 at cox.net Thu Mar 8 07:53:49 2012 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> At 09:27 AM 3/8/2012, Ian McFetridge wrote: >I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it >would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. Ian, I don't know what the others will say, but you might want to have run more power to the garage. When we did my dads house, I think we ran either 100 or 200 amp service out to the garage. Power is like computer memory - there is never enough. But if you stay with the 60 A, what you've laid out sound good to me. We also have a generator in the detatched garage. We back feed the panel in the garage from the 240V socket for the arc welder. We open the mains in the house and close the mains in the shop to backfeed the house. Just becareful not to over load your feed point by pulling too much power in the house and garage. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 08:01:29 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:01:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F58C9C9.4040805@gmail.com> Additional trench with two empty conduits with pull strings? I think someone on this list once referred to that as "Cat1000". If you're already digging or have the trencher out there... And then: three phase? There's no kill like overkill... On 3/8/2012 9:38 AM, PJ McGarvey wrote: > phone line? > > Any feedback on the wiring, other choices, or nice-to-have's that I might >> be missing would be appreciated. From shannahquilts at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 08:06:03 2012 From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 07:06:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your idea sounds adequate, but what happens if you decide to run dust collection, or have a friend over? Maybe I'm just a power hog, but I think you're going to wish you had plumbed for 100A in the shop. Your power tools are going to be all 110V? If you get a 220V power tool, what happens? Can it plug into the generator outlet? I'd also make sure you put in an oversized conduit. I say all these things from the perspective of someone who moved into a house with 30 amp service, and when the electrician put in the 200 amp service, he used very "discreet" little conduits in the basement. (unfinished basement, looks didn't matter.) Trying to add circuits he was supposed to, and "ran out of time" to do, was misery. We still are missing outlets in a couple of critical places, and run extension cords across the floor. That's with having Romex stapled to the joists next to the discreet little conduits, because it just would not fit, even with lubricant. Shannah On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote: > Hi gang, > > I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it > would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. Our detached > garage is about 150 feet from the panel in the house and I would like to > make the run underground. Here are the things I'm doing, if you can think > of something I'm missing please let me know! > -- One-call to flag/paint buried obstacles: Done, no obstacles in path. > -- Pull permit. Not done yet, but will do prior to digging. > -- Landscaper - will trench 18" down one day, then come back to fill, > top-dress and seed after inspections. > -- Electrician - 60A breaker on 200A panel in basement will feed through > basement wall above ground, then enter conduit down into trench, conduit > all the way to the garage, then electricity will enter garage above ground > into a 60A panel. There will be a second conduit containing low-voltage > cable (RG-6) and Ethernet (Cat-5 I already have, two runs of it). I'm also > going to have him run a pull string in this conduit, just in case I need to > run something else in the future. > -- Generator: I have an 8000/13500W steady/startup generator in the > garage. My thought is to run it in the garage to power the house when > needed. I like that this would let me run it away from the house (noise, > fumes), but also secure it (covered, locked, well ventilated). The > electrician looked at it and said he could: use an interlock ( > interlockkit.com) at the house panel so power either comes from the street > or the generator via conductor #2, but not both. Conductor #1 is the line > from the 60A breaker in the basement panel to the garage main breaker. In > the garage, conductor #2 connects to a 4-prong 240V receptacle where I > would plug in the generator. The electrician said he would use a transfer > switch the garage panel power source between the house (conductor #1) and > the generator (the 4-prong plug). This method means there are two > conductor wires in the trench. We looked at the cost of a 3-way switch at > the house panel using only one conductor line, but that proved to be about > 3-times as much as just running a second conductor wire. > In the garage I plan to have a garage door opener, some over head lights on > the first and 2nd floor, some outdoor floods, a panel TV, and a 20A circuit > to run one power tool at a time (e.g., table saw). I'm not going to run > compressed hour in this shop as I find I use the portable compressor only 3 > or 4 times a year. > > Any feedback on the wiring, other choices, or nice-to-have's that I might > be missing would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Ian > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shannahquilts at gmail.com From peterwmurray at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 08:34:09 2012 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:34:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: No fanboi here, just a geek who wanted a powerful laptop that could be used for modern games and didn't look unprofessional in a business environment. When I bought my Mac in December 2009, I was at a point where I was getting ready to do the full re-install on a 5-year-old Dell Inspiron (failed drive), and decided to not make the investment of time in the old hardware. With the recent MacBook Pro systems (in unibody form), I finally found what I wanted - a good, UNIX-based laptop with a competent GUI and all the above features that were missing from too many of the PC laptops. That it was a "Mac" didn't matter much to me. I do dual-boot it into Windows 7 64-bit (which runs fine) every now and then for Windows-specific software (VMware management tools, etc). I too wanted to put Linux on a laptop (I have plenty of Linux servers). I tried for years, and it never worked well - power management was not good, wifi support was lousy, display drivers were unreliable. Of course all that said, you probably could do very well on the modern desktop-focused Linux distributions (Fedora, Ubuntu) on a laptop today. Trying Red Hat Workstation in 2004 was a lousy experience! I have used Chrome, but I have standardized on Mozilla Firefox with the Adblock Plus and No-Script plugins. No-Script will protect you from a great deal of ills, though you'll need to interact with it a bit more to allow sites to run Javascript, so it is not for those who lack a little patience. I have seen no downsides to Adblock Plus. With regards to John's trouble, you can probably spend the time cleaning, but that will be hours you won't get back. You could try to use a tool like "Keyfinder" to extract the keys for the apps you have on the system (like MS Office) and copy off your data - then nuke the site from orbit. Make sure you wipe out the boot sector, in case something has lodged itself there (which is very common). You could always just pull the hard drive out and drop in a new one, and install onto that. Put your old drive into an external USB enclosure and you will have a nice portable (ob shop content) drive you can take to your shop! -Peter On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Scott wrote: > Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand cue the Wars of the OS/Platform. > > (I want to put Linux on a box. No idea where to start. Macs seem like > they're for the feeble-minded and fanbois. There, that ought to get things > started nicely. :-) ) > > > On 3/8/2012 9:35 AM, Ronnie Day wrote: >> >> If you haven't bought your new box you might want to consider a Mac. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Mar 8 08:49:28 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:49:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> On 3/8/2012 9:44 AM, Scott wrote: > Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand cue the Wars of the OS/Platform. > (I want to put Linux on a box. No idea where to start. Macs seem like > they're for the feeble-minded and fanbois. There, that ought to get No need for wars... to each his own. If you want to play with Linux without committing to installing it, google around for "live CDs". These let you boot entirely from CD, and run Linux from memory with access to your files on a windoze box but not actually installing it permanently. I like Puppy Linux, it's also a great repair tool for windoze. If you want to install, try Ubuntu or Mint. It's definitely possible to set up a PC to boot multiple OSes, but I'm not sure if the installer for either of those two facilitate it after the fact. Anti-virus -- I and a few sysadmin tech friends whom I'm very respectful of have recommended and used ESET NOD32 for years. Newegg.com frequently has it on sale for under $25 w a year's update subscription. The One tech guy who is anti-Microsoft and used to go with ESET says the "Microsoft Security Essentials" package actually works better, and it's free. He's over all the tech at a large county K-12 school system with hundreds of PCs, and that's their standard now, I'm told. Of the free stuff, AVG has VERY high system overhead. And "Avast" just doesn't do the job. I've tried Ad-Aware and Spy-Bot in the past and consider them worthless. Once a machine is infected, it's very probably no product may be able to remove it, since much of the mal-ware is designed to thwart installation of AV products. -Wayne From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 08:50:31 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:50:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> Yeah, but that's hardly incendiary or a good way to start a flame war, is it? Although I would say that whether or not a Mac looks professional or not depends entirely on the profession. Some places they're still very much like holy water to vampires in an office environment. I.e., you can't 'work' on it (even if you could). You bring a Mac into my office, for example, and people are going to assume you've brought in your personal laptop to screw around with your iTunes issues. (Note: I still have an Apple IIe and an original Macintosh in a closet in my house.) On 3/8/2012 10:34 AM, Peter Murray wrote: > No fanboi here, just a geek who wanted a powerful laptop that could be > used for modern games and didn't look unprofessional in a business > environment. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Mar 8 08:52:15 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:52:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> Message-ID: <4F58D5AF.4090404@xxiii.com> > At 09:27 AM 3/8/2012, Ian McFetridge wrote: > >I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it > >would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. You might try contacting your local power co. and asking about separate service and meter for the garage. Some of them will install it for very little or no cost. -Wayne From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Thu Mar 8 08:52:59 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:52:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> Message-ID: sent from wrong account the first time: > OK, great feedback. I"m going to get: > -- a quote on running 100A in the garage versus 60A. As you'all say, you > can never have too much power, arr, arr. > -- a quote on running more conduit or bigger conduit (cat1000, haha) > -- maybe pull an extra cat5 for phone, although the family only uses cell > phones at this point (no landline) > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:53 AM, John T. Blair wrote: > >> >> We also have a generator in the detatched garage. We back feed the panel >> in the garage from the 240V socket for the arc welder. We open the mains >> in the house and close the mains in the shop to backfeed the house. >> > > John: Do you only have on conductor line going to your detached garage? > If so, to switch to the generator do you: > -- shut off your house main breaker, disconnecting from the street. > -- open your house breaker that feeds the garage > -- open your 240V breaker in the garage where you have the generator > plugged-in > This powers the garage and the house? This seems much simpler compared to > the two conductors my electrician suggested. Am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Ian From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Thu Mar 8 09:02:05 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 11:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: Not sure if this will help now or just in the future...I had to reload my Win 7 laptop recently due to some error I could not trace. I booted to the system restore mode and had the computer restore to a previously saved restore point, which seems to have been when I installed the last set of Windows patches. It seems to be working now, but I still have some odd errors (can't delete a directory and if I try I get a blue-screen on reboot that requires a restore to fix it). I also use the Windows drive image feature when I first load the computer and have it working the way I want it to work. I believe I could reimage the drive with this backup using a windows system rescue disc, but I haven't tried it yet. On a related note, we just got a Macbook for the family so they won't use my laptop and possibly pollute it with spyware and viruses. - Ian On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:08 PM, John Niolon wrote: > my work computer took a dump... it would not access the internet even > though > the wireless modem and the hot spot card were talking... took it to the > geek > squad and they said it was full of viruses and one of them ate my op system > files and the proxy config for the internet... > > asked why my avg virus didn't catch it... they said they (the virus > writers) > write them to get past them... well duh... > > so I'm getting a new box... but I'm wondering what software I can find to > clean up the old system and make it useable again... anything I can > download > (without a virus) that might work at cleaning it up... I run my avg and > keep > it up to date... use malware and spyware watchers also... I'm still > wondering > what happened... I'm not as savy as I used to be on this stuff... > > suggestions or offers of rope to tie to this anchor... > > tia > john > > > > > > I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org From jblair1948 at cox.net Thu Mar 8 09:04:16 2012 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:04:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308105517.04d74948@cox.net> At 10:52 AM 3/8/2012, Ian McFetridge wrote: > >>We also have a generator in the detatched garage. We back feed the panel >>in the garage from the 240V socket for the arc welder. We open the mains in >>the house and close the mains in the shop to backfeed the house. >John: Do you only have on conductor line going to your detached garage? If > so, to switch to the generator do you: >-- shut off your house main breaker, disconnecting from the street. >-- open your house breaker that feeds the garage >-- open your 240V breaker in the garage where you have the generator >plugged-in >This powers the garage and the house? This seems much simpler compared >to the two conductors my electrician suggested. Am I missing something? Yes, we only have one set of conductors going to the garage. And yes, you are correct about us having to manually shut offf the house's main breaker to both the street ("the main"). We have a "main" in the shop, coming from the house. So we trip that to isolate the garage from the house. We can, but don't have to trip the braker for the welder. We connect the generator to the arc welder socket, fire up the generator. Now we have power in the shop to the panel. If we reset the main, back to the house, we power up the house. >This powers the garage and the house? Yes! >This seems much simpler compared to the two conductors my electrician >suggested. Am I missing something? Yes it is. Your electrician probably doing in correctly. Most places want you to have a break before make switch, and some people want auto start generators so they don't really loose power. Our system requires us to do some work. We have to dig out the generator, trip the main, plug it in, fire up the Gen. etc. So it take a little longer. Ours is also set up for "an emergency" not as a power always. If we loose power for more than an hour or two we'll look at digging out the generator. This came about after dad lost power for over 21 days after one of the hurricains. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 09:07:29 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> I think I need to go get a "Linux for Dummies" book or something. I frequently feel like the lady saying "the oil light is on" with our tech stuff. I can't help but think I'd be a whole lot happier if I at least had a working knowledge of Java, Linux, Visual Basic, etc. And apparently Python too. I took a C class in college eons ago. How that qualified me to be our interface with IT I have no idea, but I'd at least like to understand this stuff better. On 3/8/2012 10:49 AM, Wayne wrote: > No need for wars... to each his own. If you want to play with Linux > without committing to installing it, google around for "live CDs". > These let you boot entirely from CD, and run Linux from memory with > access to your files on a windoze box but not actually installing it > permanently. I like Puppy Linux, it's also a great repair tool for > windoze. > > If you want to install, try Ubuntu or Mint. It's definitely possible > to set up a PC to boot multiple OSes, but I'm not sure if the > installer for either of those two facilitate it after the fact. From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 09:36:55 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 11:36:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <4F58D5AF.4090404@xxiii.com> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> <4F58D5AF.4090404@xxiii.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Wayne wrote: > You might try contacting your local power co. and asking about separate > service and meter for the garage. Some of them will install it for very > little or no cost. My local co-op brought a separate service underground about 450' from the feeder to a transformer near my shop. All of that wire is theirs to maintain. I put a 200A service in the shop. I will never need that much, but I can weld while the compressor is running without any worries. Total cost from the utility was around $1250 if I recall. Add $35 for a permit, the same for a meter base, and then my panel and wiring. Well worth considering. It would have cost me almost as much to bring service from the panel in my house. Of course, I still need a trench to bring water, CAT5, etc. out there so I will be comfortable next time I get in dutch with the wife. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From brabel at comcast.net Thu Mar 8 09:52:23 2012 From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:52:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop Message-ID: One must-have for me is three-way switches at the house and shop, so you can turn the porch light(s) on and off from either place. - Bill Rabel Anacortes On Mar 8, 2012, at 6:27 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote: > Any feedback on the wiring, other choices, or nice-to-have's that I might > be missing would be appreciated. From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Mar 8 09:54:04 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:54:04 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Only one circuit for outlets in the garage? There should definitely be at least two. It is not a problem if the total amperage of all the circuit breakers exceeds the 60A input capacity. The generator and supply lines may need to be in separate conduits. Make sure the trench is deep enough to take the 2 or 3 conduits stacked on top of each other. What about ground rods for the sub-panel? I did a similar project a few years ago in my old house. It went well. There was one subtle point: A light on the garage exterior was controlled by a switch in the house. I was originally planning for it to be powered from a separate circuit from the house panel. The inspector suggested instead that a circuit from the garage run back to the house to the switch and then return to the garage to the light. This way, turning off the garage power ensured that all garage wiring was de-energized. Doug On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote: > Hi gang, > > I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it > would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. From marka at maracing.com Thu Mar 8 10:01:43 2012 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:01:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <4F58D5AF.4090404@xxiii.com> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> <4F58D5AF.4090404@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Wayne wrote: >> At 09:27 AM 3/8/2012, Ian McFetridge wrote: >> >I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it >> >would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. > > You might try contacting your local power co. and asking about separate > service and meter for the garage. Some of them will install it for very > little or no cost. Yep. Ditto a dedicated natural gas line, if that applies. I think these companies often understand that making the upfront install a little easier means years & years of monthly payments. :-) Mark From peterwmurray at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 10:42:28 2012 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:42:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> Message-ID: Best way to learn Linux is a) have a project for which you use Linux and b) have a mentor who can help you. Just like using a new tool or shop technique! -Peter On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Scott wrote: > I think I need to go get a "Linux for Dummies" book or something. I > frequently feel like the lady saying "the oil light is on" with our tech > stuff. I can't help but think I'd be a whole lot happier if I at least had a > working knowledge of Java, Linux, Visual Basic, etc. And apparently Python > too. I took a C class in college eons ago. How that qualified me to be our > interface with IT I have no idea, but I'd at least like to understand this > stuff better. From tputland at charter.net Thu Mar 8 10:57:08 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:57:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop Message-ID: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> On the thought of two meters..... We bought a house that at one point had been converted to a two flat and then back before we bought it. Whe the initial conversion to a two flat was done, a seperate meter was put in for the electrical only and not removed when converted back to a single family house. Becuase I have two meters, I get two bills each month, and thus two monthly "customer charges" of around $10 per meter. It would cost me close to $2000 (two different bids) to change the service back to one meter so I would most likely not recoup that cost from the saved monthly customer charge. Something to consider when thinking about a seperate service to a shop or garage. Tim On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Wayne wrote: >>> At 09:27 AM 3/8/2012, Ian McFetridge wrote: >>>> I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured >>>> it >>>> would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. >> >> You might try contacting your local power co. and asking about >> separate service and meter for the garage. Some of them will install >> it for very little or no cost. > > Yep. Ditto a dedicated natural gas line, if that applies. I think > these companies often understand that making the upfront install a > little easier means years & years of monthly payments. :-) > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From tvacc at lotusowners.com Thu Mar 8 11:36:19 2012 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 13:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <0e5501ccfd5a$5b07e5f0$1117b1d0$@lotusowners.com> Hi all, Like I have mentioned before, we do this computer stuff all day every day. There are very few people we know that are as good at this as us. Partially bragging but it is just the truth. The way it is. This is how I see it all. There is really no difference between a MAC and a Windows 7 PC in regards to virus vulnerability. (yes, there was a difference up until Vista) It is just that the MAC has not been targeted as much. But they do get targeted. We do see it. And they are getting targeted more with its increased market share. ESET.com now sells a MAC product and it is very good. We suggest it to all our MAC clients. We also think the ESET product is the best right now for the PC. We sell a lot of it. Smallest memory foot print and the best at catching stuff including malicious websites. Where I have a problem with the MAC is that is more expensive then the PC, quite a bit more. That is my only issue with the MAC. We have found that all of those resident anti-spyware products, really just slow up the system and don't protect you very much. Just today I have a computer here with Spyware Dr and the Macafee full security product. Loaded with spyware and Trojans. We also have one here with Norton on it. Same thing. The best defense is offense. Every two weeks scan your computer with the various free scan products out there. If you see something pop up on your computer, take care of it right away. LIKE NOW. Use a good anti virus and as long as we are on the subject of that ...... We exclusively use the www.eset.com product for a paid program and we use Microsoft's Security Essentials for a free one. To be honest, all the rest both paid and unpaid, we see every day. And they just are not catching the stuff. That includes all the one mentioned in the earlier threads. We do like the Kapersky product for scanning a badly infected machine however. I am in my late...very late 50's. Seen all the micro computer stuff from right at the get go in 1982. I know what I am talking about. We are good at what we do. And that only comes from seeing all this stuff, day in and day out. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 11:43:12 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:43:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F58FDC0.8010904@gmail.com> Yeah, I don't have that. Well, not explicitly, anyway. What I do have is a need to communicate with people who are running our servers (which run on Linux, I understand). No mentoring, though. The Java and Visual Basic stuff I use on a daily basis (or at least that's what they tell me, anyway). Those I can probably fool around with until I figure it out. I have no idea what in here is programmed on Python. On 3/8/2012 12:42 PM, Peter Murray wrote: > Best way to learn Linux is a) have a project for which you use Linux > and b) have a mentor who can help you. Just like using a new tool or > shop technique! > > -Peter From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Thu Mar 8 12:58:27 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:58:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> Message-ID: More good stuff for me to think about, thanks. The local power company wants to run the line overhead (all power runs overhead apparently), which is a no-go for us since the existing line to garage went down when one of our giant oaks in the backyard shed some big branches. Good idea though, it would be cheaper -- thanks for suggesting (with the caveat that it might have a higher monthly cost for two meters). The electrician did mention ground rods at the sub-panel. I forgot to add that, my bad. For outside light control, I'm planning to use the Visteon wireless/wire-carrier switches so I can control them from the house and the shop. Good point, I'll have to double-check with the electrician to make sure that works -- it would be more than inconvenient to have to be in the shop to control the outside lights. Circuits are like power, I should probably run more circuits than I think I need. Thanks for the wake-up. Thanks again for the input gang. From battmain at yahoo.com Thu Mar 8 13:04:35 2012 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:04:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1331237075.94229.YahooMailNeo@web160106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I think Linix and the different flavors of it come easier to those of use who have been around DOS. It's intriguing to see how speedy an old computer can be on Linix, in comparison to Windows. The first time I booted that machine, I had to do it again just to make sure it was working properly. It was noticeably faster on boot. Virtual machines are also a good way to play with stuff. Virtual Box seems to handle the 64bit versions of many programs without griping like Virtual PC does. B >________________________________ >From: Scott >To: shop-talk at autox.team.net >Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:07 AM >Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] computer virus question > >I think I need to go get a "Linux for Dummies" book or something. I frequently feel like the lady saying "the oil light is on" with our tech stuff. I can't help but think I'd be a whole lot happier if I at least had a working knowledge of Java, Linux, Visual Basic, etc. And apparently Python too. I took a C class in college eons ago. How that qualified me to be our interface with IT I have no idea, but I'd at least like to understand this stuff better. (snip) From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Thu Mar 8 13:44:46 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:44:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Wayne wrote: > If you want to play with Linux without committing to installing it, google > around for "live CDs". These let you boot entirely from CD, and run Linux > from memory with access to your files on a windoze box but not actually > installing it permanently. I like Puppy Linux, it's also a great repair > tool for windoze. > That's a good point. Since my Win7 machine started having problems, I've been doing all of my banking on LUBUNTU (Light Ubuntu Linux). I initially used a Live CD, but now I boot it from a USB flash drive and it's quite a bit faster. - Ian From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 13:46:32 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:46:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Ian McFetridge wrote: > The electrician did mention ground rods at the sub-panel. I forgot to add > that, my bad. You might want to check the code on that. Two different grounds can cause an induced current in the grounding conductor. That means the bare wire can be live. Not very live, but ISTR that it's not permitted. I could be wrong, though. Heaven knows it's happened before. But I'd check on it. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 8 13:46:59 2012 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:46:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: You know Macs are catching on when large enterprises that take security very seriously are pushing for them. Why are they catching on? Well the surveys and polls I've read are b/c executives want them for one.... (your alarm bells should be going off right now) what else? (and this is directly from Forrester I recall) 1.) they look well made (brushed aluminum, and a polished design will do that) 2.) they aren't slowed down by all that annoying antivirus and protection software (I LOL at that one). -PJ > Although I would say that whether or not a Mac looks professional or not > depends entirely on the profession. Some places they're still very > much like holy water to vampires in an office environment. I.e., you > can't 'work' on it (even if you could). You bring a Mac into my office, > for example, and people are going to assume you've brought in your > personal laptop to screw around with your iTunes issues. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:08:19 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:08:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> I can wholeheartedly attest to executives wanting one. My old boss _demanded_ a Macbook. He had a Windows notebook and a Windows desktop in his office, but all the cool kids had Macbooks, so he needed one too. Wanted a iPhone, too but the IT guy couldn't figure out how to make it work with our BES servers, so no go. It was truly one of the most frustrating aspects of employment for me there. The CEO retard (my boss) demanded the Macbook. The IT retard couldn't make it work on our network, so he had to buy a ton of Airports (I think that's what they were) and set them up, all so that useless sack of shit could...read his (personal) email. Which he could have done from the desktop or the laptop. Do you hate the retard that has to have the toy, or the retard that has to overspend to make it do a fraction of what it could, and what the cheap commodity p.c.s do anyway? I might have a complex, but I have a little bit of a thing about executives that *want* to use Apple products. You automatically drop two letter grades with me if the shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny trendy stuff is the priority with you. Like I said, my first computer was an Apple IIe...but if I see you with an Apple product in a business environment now, you'd better damn well be working at Pixar or ILM. I'm not doing business with you otherwise. And if you're one of those douchenozzles that carry two cell phones (and one of them is an iPhone), you're not impressing anybody. Christ, I'm glad I don't work there anymore. We spent $80,000 a year for $10,000 worth of IT. Dear God it was bad. On 3/8/2012 3:46 PM, PJ McGarvey wrote: > You know Macs are catching on when large enterprises that take security very > seriously are pushing for them. Why are they catching on? Well the surveys > and polls I've read are b/c executives want them for one.... (your alarm bells > should be going off right now) what else? (and this is directly from > Forrester I recall) 1.) they look well made (brushed aluminum, and a polished > design will do that) 2.) they aren't slowed down by all that annoying > antivirus and protection software (I LOL at that one). > > -PJ > >> Although I would say that whether or not a Mac looks professional or not >> depends entirely on the profession. Some places they're still very >> much like holy water to vampires in an office environment. I.e., you >> can't 'work' on it (even if you could). You bring a Mac into my office, >> for example, and people are going to assume you've brought in your >> personal laptop to screw around with your iTunes issues. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:18:50 2012 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:18:50 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote: > sent from wrong account the first time: >> This powers the garage and the house? B This seems much simpler compared to >> the two conductors my electrician suggested. B Am I missing something? Yeah: John's way is not code, not safe, and not a good idea. If the main breaker isn't shut off, the generator will try and power the whole neighboorhood. That's likely to not work well, and can (in theory) endanger someone working on the lines who expects your side to be dead. That's a bigger problem in your house: it creates a situation where the main disconnect is disconnected, but the branches are still hot. Yeah, you're not terrilby likely to be doing wiring in a power outage, but it's still a bad idea to subvert the safety expectations. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:28:16 2012 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:28:16 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Scott wrote: > I can wholeheartedly attest to executives wanting one. My old boss > _demanded_ a Macbook. He had a Windows notebook and a Windows desktop in his > office, but all the cool kids had Macbooks, so he needed one too. Wanted a > iPhone, too but the IT guy couldn't figure out how to make it work with our > BES servers, so no go. > > It was truly one of the most frustrating aspects of employment for me there. So, you blame Apple for your IT staff being incompetent? Might want to check your assumptions there.... I don't think Tim Cook was responsible for hiring them, and apple's stuff plays perfectly well with Windows (and just about everything else, for that matter.). So it was pure incompetence (or laziness, or obstinatness, or some variation of "won't do his job") on your IT guy's part that caused whatever problem you had. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:30:09 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Scott wrote: > And if you're one of those douchenozzles that carry two cell phones (and one > of them is an iPhone), you're not impressing anybody. OK, so neither one was an iPhone, but I carried two of 'em for years. One was a personal phone, the other was work. That way, I didn't have to give my boss my personal phone number. That was worth any inconvenience. I now have a boss for whom I don't mind handing out my number. But the contractors still have to use email to get me. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:46:50 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:46:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F5928CA.3060500@gmail.com> Not at all (do I blame Apple). The problem was COMPLETELY with our 'IT' guy. I'm just agreeing with PJ--we got Apple products at our office because the head decider wanted the toys he saw other people playing with in airports, the two times he flew somewhere. Don't get me started on the BES, either. The whole reason we had that was because the retarded waste of skin that we employed as IT couldn't manage a mail server and so had to have someone install and remotely maintain a BES. Which necessitated using Blackberrys (and their more-expensive contracts), etc., etc., etc., and precluded (to him at least) the use of our iPhone for my boss, which meant maybe 80 hours total of meeting for me where my boss tried everything BUT firing the retard and getting an IT guy that could make it all happen. No, Apple had nothing to do with that. But I do believe that anyone wanting an Apple product in a business environment is less-competent. They do the same things p.c.s do--for twice as much money. That's bad business (unless you're some sort of media company, where I understand Apple produces cost-effective products. I don't know; I don't work at one of those.) On 3/8/2012 4:28 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > So, you blame Apple for your IT staff being incompetent? Might want > to check your assumptions there.... I don't think Tim Cook was > responsible for hiring them, and apple's stuff plays perfectly well > with Windows (and just about everything else, for that matter.). > So it was pure incompetence (or laziness, or obstinatness, or some > variation of "won't do his job") on your IT guy's part that caused > whatever problem you had. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:50:10 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:50:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F592992.1080406@gmail.com> I was just ranting, Jeff. Did you carry them both on holsters on your belt? Then I have to tease you. :-) On 3/8/2012 4:30 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > OK, so neither one was an iPhone, but I carried two of 'em for years. > One was a personal phone, the other was work. That way, I didn't have > to give my boss my personal phone number. That was worth any > inconvenience. > > I now have a boss for whom I don't mind handing out my number. But > the contractors still have to use email to get me. From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Mar 8 14:56:22 2012 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:56:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Scott wrote: > Like I said, my first computer was an Apple IIe...but if I see you with an > Apple product in a business environment now, you'd better damn well be > working at Pixar or ILM. I'm not doing business with you otherwise. Scott, You need to widen your horizons more than a little bit. I do my work on Windows and Solaris machines, but I could do it all on my personal MacBook Pro. I have in the past, both at this company, and previous... none of which were Pixar or ILM, or even in that industry. Half the management here runs around with iPads now, and most of the rest have iPhones. More to the point, I could walk into your 'business environment' running Windows on a Mac. If you still think Apples are toys, you are about a decade behind. iPhones come with a Cisco v.5 VPN client that is unavailable on any other Smartphone, so if you want to do real remote work with a phone, you need an Apple. I am not a huge Apple fan, especially since I found out last weekend that no one there has a passing familiarity with basic security principles, but they are no longer just for iTunes. -- David Hillman From mark at nashvilletn.org Thu Mar 8 16:25:59 2012 From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 17:25:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA8F17BBDF849FC911A99AB1E202D39@Dell9200> Just take your Valium Scott, it will be ok :) _____________________________________________ My old boss _demanded_ a Macbook. (OMG WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO ?) It was truly one of the most frustrating aspects of employment. (SPEND A DAY IN MY SHOES!) Do you hate the retard that has to have the toy, or the retard that has to overspend to make it do a fraction of what it could, and what the cheap commodity p.c.s do anyway? (RAMBLING?) I might have a complex, (YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT!!) And if you're one of those douchenozzles that carry two cell phones (and one of them is an iPhone), you're not impressing anybody. (IS THAT GERMAN FOR SOMETHING BAD?) Christ, I'm glad I don't work there anymore. (UNDERSTANDABLE) Sent from my iPad (JUST KIDDING) From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:51:18 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 18:51:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4EA8F17BBDF849FC911A99AB1E202D39@Dell9200> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> <4EA8F17BBDF849FC911A99AB1E202D39@Dell9200> Message-ID: <4F5945F6.9060001@gmail.com> On 3/8/2012 6:25 PM, Mark wrote: > Just take your Valium Scott, it will be ok :) You kid, but the reason I quit that job is because some of the other shit that went on there had me questioning my sanity. It was--and I'm not exaggerating--like working in "The Office". I was there, and I still don't believe it. > My old boss _demanded_ a Macbook. (OMG WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO ?) He had three other computers and wouldn't know the difference. We should have stuck an Apple sticker on a Dell. > It was truly one of the most frustrating aspects of employment. (SPEND A DAY > IN MY SHOES!) Are you IT? > Sent from my iPad (JUST KIDDING) Heh. I'll kill you later. From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:55:15 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 18:55:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F592992.1080406@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com> <4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com> <4F592992.1080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Scott wrote: > I was just ranting, Jeff. Oh yeah, I understand. I, myself, enjoy a good rant from time to time. > Did you carry them both on holsters on your belt? Then I have to tease you. > :-) Oh good heavens, no! Slipped 'em both in the same pocket. The only time I ever showed them both at the same time was when the guys at Radio Shack tried to sell me a phone... Cheers, Jeff From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Mar 8 17:02:09 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:02:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> Message-ID: <08c401ccfd87$dffcf110$9ff6d330$@rr.com> > You might want to check the code on that. I agree about checking. ISTR the rule was that a separate building could have its own ground rod, but that the neutral conductor should only be bonded to ground at the main entrance. So the outbuilding would have neutral treated as a hot wire (not bonded to ground). -- Randall From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Thu Mar 8 17:16:50 2012 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 18:16:50 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: , <6.2.5.6.1.20120308094918.04c862e8@cox.net>, , , Message-ID: +1 Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:18:50 -0600 > From: dmscheidt at gmail.com > To: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org > CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Ian McFetridge > wrote: > > sent from wrong account the first time: > > >> This powers the garage and the house? B This seems much simpler compared > to > >> the two conductors my electrician suggested. B Am I missing something? > > Yeah: John's way is not code, not safe, and not a good idea. If the > main breaker isn't shut off, the generator will try and power the > whole neighboorhood. That's likely to not work well, and can (in > theory) endanger someone working on the lines who expects your side to > be dead. That's a bigger problem in your house: it creates a > situation where the main disconnect is disconnected, but the branches > are still hot. Yeah, you're not terrilby likely to be doing wiring > in a power outage, but it's still a bad idea to subvert the safety > expectations. > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Mar 8 19:06:06 2012 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:06:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F5945F6.9060001@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com><4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com><4EA8F17BBDF849FC911A99AB1E202D39@Dell9200> <4F5945F6.9060001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <81D11414D3B74340818425494EA4877A@EricJRussellPC> > He had three other computers and wouldn't know the difference. We should > have stuck an Apple sticker on a Dell. Or just give him an Etch-A-Sketch. http://search.dilbert.com/comic/Etch%20A%20Sketch Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From bk13 at earthlink.net Thu Mar 8 20:50:57 2012 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 19:50:57 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <08c401ccfd87$dffcf110$9ff6d330$@rr.com> References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> <08c401ccfd87$dffcf110$9ff6d330$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4F597E21.80103@earthlink.net> When I put in a sub panel, ground was from the house. It was only a 40' run, so that may have been the difference. Local codes may vary, so it is worth a call to the building permit people. Randall is correct about ground and neutral needing to be independent from each other at the sub panel. They make an isolated bar that goes in the panel for all the neutrals. Grounds go to the normal panel ground. The basic theory is ground always needs to stay at ground. Run a heavy current on the neutral and it will no longer be a true ground. A longer run or slightly corroded connection will make it worse. The permit process is actually a good thing here. Brian On 3/8/2012 4:02 PM, Randall wrote: >> You might want to check the code on that. > I agree about checking. ISTR the rule was that a separate building could > have its own ground rod, but that the neutral conductor should only be > bonded to ground at the main entrance. So the outbuilding would have > neutral treated as a hot wire (not bonded to ground). > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Mar 8 20:52:23 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 22:52:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> Message-ID: <4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> >> The electrician did mention ground rods at the sub-panel. I forgot to add >> that, my bad. That sounds TOTALLY wrong. I flunked out of EE and am not a licensed electrician. But AFAIK, the neutral and ground should be "bonded" at ONE point and ONE POINT ONLY. A subpanel should have a separate neutral and ground wire run to it, and the bonding bar between the the two in the box should be removed, to create an "isolated ground" whereas a main entrance panel has the two connected. -Wayne From tvacc at lotusowners.com Thu Mar 8 21:01:32 2012 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 23:01:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> <4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <0f4301ccfda9$50729a50$f157cef0$@lotusowners.com> I believe that is what they did when I put a subpanel in the small shed I have for my pool pumps. They removed the bonding bar. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:52 PM To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop >> The electrician did mention ground rods at the sub-panel. I forgot >> to add that, my bad. That sounds TOTALLY wrong. I flunked out of EE and am not a licensed electrician. But AFAIK, the neutral and ground should be "bonded" at ONE point and ONE POINT ONLY. A subpanel should have a separate neutral and ground wire run to it, and the bonding bar between the the two in the box should be removed, to create an "isolated ground" whereas a main entrance panel has the two connected. -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 21:14:26 2012 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 22:14:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> <4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Wayne wrote: >>> The electrician did mention ground rods at the sub-panel. B I forgot to >>> add >>> that, my bad. > > > That sounds TOTALLY wrong. B I flunked out of EE and am not a licensed > electrician. B But AFAIK, the neutral and ground should be "bonded" at ONE > point and ONE POINT ONLY. B A subpanel should have a separate neutral and > ground wire run to it, and the bonding bar between the the two in the box > should be removed, to create an "isolated ground" whereas a main entrance > panel has the two connected. Nope. Subpanel in a detached structure requires a ground electrode. (That can be a ground rod, or other approved real earth ground.) See NEC 250.32. That's different from tying the safety ground and the neutral together ('bonding'). The ground and neutral are almost never allowed to be bonded at the sub-panel (and where you could do it, it's not a good idea). Subpanel inside the same structure (like, say, an attached garage, or an office building with panels per floor or tenant) does not require a separate ground connector (There's probably some situation where it does. i"d have to look it up to see if it's allowed.). Neither does just running a circuit to an out building. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mark at bradakis.com Thu Mar 8 21:16:52 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 21:16:52 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406> <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com> <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com> <4F58D508.6070607@xxiii.com> <4F58D941.7090107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F598434.3010208@bradakis.com> Scott wrote: > I think I need to go get a "Linux for Dummies" book or something. The troubles I am having with getting the archives and the forums working seem to point out that I, too, need such a book. Sheesh. Computers can be such fun! In case any of you nerds are wondering the current main Team.Net server box is a Dell SC1430, 2 Intel Core 2 Xeon 3 GHz processors, 4 gigs of ram, adequate disk space. I'm running Fedora 15 on it. Some things work great, some things don't. So it goes. mjb. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Mar 8 21:31:09 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 23:31:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> <4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4F59878D.60303@xxiii.com> Hmm, interesting. I offer DIY advice to the best of my knowledge, but do not claim to be an expert. Will grab the NEC tomorrow. As a sysadmin / IT guy going back to the 80s we were paying huge amounts of money for hardware system maintenance. The computer vendors demanded certain standards for AC power if you wanted your system maintained. The in house electricians shrugged it off, but others proved to me you can have crazy delta-V and other weird effects (60 amps between neutral and ground) if you don't run pure isolated ground & neutral. None of this involved an outbuilding, though. On 3/8/2012 11:14 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > Nope. Subpanel in a detached structure requires a ground electrode. > (That can be a ground rod, or other approved real earth ground.) See > NEC 250.32. That's different from tying the safety ground and the > neutral together ('bonding'). The ground and neutral are almost never > allowed to be bonded at the sub-panel (and where you could do it, it's From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Mar 8 22:06:14 2012 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:06:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <4F59878D.60303@xxiii.com> References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net><4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> <4F59878D.60303@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <00e601ccfdb2$5aa153f0$0301a8c0@randall> > The computer > vendors demanded > certain standards for AC power if you wanted your system > maintained. Not sure if they were the same standards, but we basically had to run a separate transformer just for the computer equipment. Same rule applied, though, "safety" ground was tied to neutral at only one place (transformer secondary). The outlets were "isolated ground", meaning the third wire was NOT tied to the conduit or box at the outlet. After some bad experiences, all of our field installations included isolation transformers as well. On one trip (to 'Red' China), I left with 16 spare power supplies and came back with 17 failed power supplies. -- Randall From mark at bradakis.com Fri Mar 9 01:10:46 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 01:10:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Ashes to ashes, dust to dust Message-ID: <20120309081046.BDF6F2E02A@bradakis.com> Team.Net has been around a while. People join, people leave, an ebb and flow of enthusiasts over the years. Some leave a mark that will not be soon forgotten. Steve Laifman passed away, a stalwart on the Tigers list. We had Fred Thomas on Triumphs, Frank on Spridgets. Uncle Jack was a stalwart on the vintage racing scene with his immaculately prepared Triumphs. As I've mentioned before one of my least favorite tasks is removing someone from the lists as they depart. I want to add them back. I want to keep them alive in our hearts, in our minds, in our web browsers. We, as a community of kindred spirits need to show our respect, admiration and appreciation. Team.Net is currently in a bit of disarray as I work on updating, upgrading and unfortunetly upending various services. In the midst of this cloud of digital dust a new project comes to mind - a memorial page. A place to gather stories, pictures, quips and quotes about those who have touched us all. Stay tuned, there will be requests for stuff to fill these soon to be created web pages. mjb. From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Fri Mar 9 01:39:46 2012 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 08:39:46 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <81D11414D3B74340818425494EA4877A@EricJRussellPC> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com><4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com><4EA8F17BBDF849FC911A99AB1E202D39@Dell9200> <4F5945F6.9060001@gmail.com> <81D11414D3B74340818425494EA4877A@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <4F59C1D2.7080807@talktalk.net> A place I worked in the late 90's was gradually rolling out computers - at the time few people actually had a PC, let alone a laptop - and even email was rolled out to just the senior people. One sales manager was issued with a laptop & email account, but insisted on his secretary (remember them?) printing out & presenting his emails to him each morning. There were rumours he just used the laptop to keep his mid-morning bacon sandwich warm... Neil On 09/03/2012 02:06, Eric J Russell wrote: >> He had three other computers and wouldn't know the difference. We >> should have stuck an Apple sticker on a Dell. > > Or just give him an Etch-A-Sketch. > http://search.dilbert.com/comic/Etch%20A%20Sketch > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 05:54:20 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 07:54:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F59C1D2.7080807@talktalk.net> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com><4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com><4EA8F17BBDF849FC911A99AB1E202D39@Dell9200> <4F5945F6.9060001@gmail.com> <81D11414D3B74340818425494EA4877A@EricJRussellPC> <4F59C1D2.7080807@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <4F59FD7C.5020701@gmail.com> Well that brings back memories. This same guy had a habit of walking into my office and thrusting s sheet pf apper at me. Invariably it was an email he'd printed out. Sometimes he'd have forwarded the email to me, sometimes he would not have. One of my all time favorites from that job was when I wanted to get rid of someone and he didn't. His response to, "She can't perform the functions of her position" was, "We don't judge people by their performance here." He won many arguments by simply stunning me into silence. On 3/9/2012 3:39 AM, Neil Sherry wrote: > A place I worked in the late 90's was gradually rolling out computers > - at the time few people actually had a PC, let alone a laptop - and > even email was rolled out to just the senior people. One sales manager > was issued with a laptop & email account, but insisted on his > secretary (remember them?) printing out & presenting his emails to him > each morning. There were rumours he just used the laptop to keep his > mid-morning bacon sandwich warm... From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Fri Mar 9 06:09:42 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:09:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop In-Reply-To: <00e601ccfdb2$5aa153f0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <1d36294e.3de9b2.135f3750bba.Webtop.45@charter.net> <4F597E77.9010907@xxiii.com> <4F59878D.60303@xxiii.com> <00e601ccfdb2$5aa153f0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: re: grounding the sub-panel I really appreciate you'all bringing this to my attention. I honestly didn't think that much about grounding. The electrician has worked in town for 20 years and the local inspector is purported to be fair and knowledgeable, so I hope between the two of them they'll arrive at the proper grounding solution. I do have a good bit of electronics in the house and plan to have some electronics in the garage -- I'd hate to start losing power supplies or worse. I'll follow-up with the as-installed. Thanks again, Ian From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Mar 9 09:51:26 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:51:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] computer virus question In-Reply-To: <4F59C1D2.7080807@talktalk.net> References: <43A5BF4FC1A5442AB7A6628A84BA771C@john5043a2d406>, <0d8501ccfce5$ac46c050$04d440f0$@lotusowners.com>, , , <4F58C5CE.1050507@gmail.com>, , <4F58D547.9070805@gmail.com><4F591FC3.3060603@gmail.com><4EA8F17BBDF849FC911A99AB1E202D39@Dell9200> <4F5945F6.9060001@gmail.com> <81D11414D3B74340818425494EA4877A@EricJRussellPC> <4F59C1D2.7080807@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <098c01ccfe14$de926980$9bb73c80$@rr.com> > One sales manager was > issued with a laptop & email account, but insisted on his secretary > (remember them?) printing out & presenting his emails to him each > morning. That does bring back memories. We had a CEO like that, for awhile ... ISTR it was his successor that insisted we HAD to roll out cc:Calendar immediately; and then when he found my crew & I working on it one Saturday morning said "Isn't there something more important you should be doing?". I am SO glad I got out of IT! -- Randall From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Sat Mar 10 16:44:51 2012 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 15:44:51 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage Message-ID: <4ED44A86234844E2AF765DE80C9B8E08@delld520> Dot dot dot Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:27:25 -0500 From: Ian McFetridge To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi gang, I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it would behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. Our detached garage is about 150 feet from the panel in the house and I would like to make the run underground. Dot Dot Dot Not sure if anyone mentioned it and it isn't power but if you have an open trench it might be nice to run water out there. From pethier at comcast.net Sat Mar 10 18:12:19 2012 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:12:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage In-Reply-To: <4ED44A86234844E2AF765DE80C9B8E08@delld520> Message-ID: <1331311360.69991.1331428339664.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I d0 not know where you live, but here, water needs to go a LOT deeper than electric. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Miller" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 5:44:51 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage > Dot dot dot > > Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:27:25 -0500 > > From: Ian McFetridge > > To: shop-talk > > Subject: [Shop-talk] Running power to the shop > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Hi gang, > > > > I'm planning to run power to the shop (detached garage) and figured it > would > behoove me to get some input from the Shop-talk list. Our detached > garage > is about 150 feet from the panel in the house and I would like to make > the > run underground. > > > > Dot Dot Dot > > > > Not sure if anyone mentioned it and it isn't power but if you have an > open > trench it might be nice to run water out there. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Sun Mar 11 18:07:51 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:07:51 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage In-Reply-To: <1331311360.69991.1331428339664.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4ED44A86234844E2AF765DE80C9B8E08@delld520> <1331311360.69991.1331428339664.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Thanks Mark and Phil, I briefly thought about running water (and maybe sewer) in the trench, but I decided to keep it simple at this point and just do electric. Thanks, Ian From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Mar 14 09:30:35 2012 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:30:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a small hot water radiator Message-ID: I am in the midst of remodeling a bathroom and need to remove a small radiator that was installed in a previous remodel. The radiator small kick space unit like this: http://www.accentshopping.com/product.asp?P_ID=150766. We are going to put electric radiant heat under the tile, so the old system (which was totally under-sized for the bathroom) is no longer necessary. However, as long as we have the lines there, we are going to install a hydronic heated towel rack near where the old radiator sat. I'll need to cut the old copper pipes below floor level and route them into the walls. That part should be pretty straightforward and fortunately, we probably won't need the heat again this season. Therefore, the plan is to simply do the rough-in now and cap the pipes. Should we get a prolonged cold snap and need the heat, I will put in a jumper across the inlet and return, but I don't think that will be necessary. So, that is the background. My question is around removing the old radiator. The bathroom is on the second floor, which has four other cast iron radiators on it. For what it is worth, this one is the farthest from the boiler. Should I completely drain the system, or is it enough to simply drain a little to release the pressure and drop the water level? The system hasn't been drained in the five years I have lived here, so if this is a recommended thing to do anyway, I guess now is as good a time as any. Thanks. From jnew at hazelden.ca Wed Mar 14 11:27:46 2012 From: jnew at hazelden.ca (John P. New) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:27:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a small hot water radiator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203141327.46851.jnew@hazelden.ca> Jim, I have a large hot water radiator system (about 40 radiators) in my home, and I have removed and replaced a single radiator many times without draining the entire system. First, shut off the boiler, the supply water to the system and the recirculating pump. Go to the lowest point on your system that has a drain valve. In my system, and I think normally, this is at the boiler. Open the drain valve and start draining the water. At the same time, occasionally open the bleed valve on the radiator to be removed to see if there is still water pressure at that radiator. If there is, close the bleed valve and wait a bit, and then open the bleed valve again. At some point, the bleed valve will start sucking air. Leave the bleed valve open until the radiator is empty of water. At this point, close the main drain valve at the boiler. How will you know when the rad is drained? When the water noises in the rad stop, it's a safe bet that it's empty. After you close the main drain valve, partially undo the pipe connections to the rad to make sure it's really empty. If no or very little water comes out, it should be safe to remove the radiator. Put notes on the system supply water, the boiler control and the circulating pump not to turn any of them on until the rad is put back! Make sure you have plenty of old towels on hand to catch any rad water _before_ it spills; old systems with cast iron radiators can have some very nasty black water that stains everything from fabrics to tile and marble. Hope that helps. John On March 14, 2012 11:30:35 AM Jim Stone wrote: > I am in the midst of remodeling a bathroom and need to remove a small radiator > that was installed in a previous remodel. The radiator small kick space unit > like this: http://www.accentshopping.com/product.asp?P_ID=150766. We are > going to put electric radiant heat under the tile, so the old system (which > was totally under-sized for the bathroom) is no longer necessary. However, as > long as we have the lines there, we are going to install a hydronic heated > towel rack near where the old radiator sat. I'll need to cut the old copper > pipes below floor level and route them into the walls. That part should be > pretty straightforward and fortunately, we probably won't need the heat again > this season. Therefore, the plan is to simply do the rough-in now and cap the > pipes. Should we get a prolonged cold snap and need the heat, I will put in a > jumper across the inlet and return, but I don't think that will be necessary. > > So, that is the background. My question is around removing the old radiator. > The bathroom is on the second floor, which has four other cast iron radiators > on it. For what it is worth, this one is the farthest from the boiler. > Should I completely drain the system, or is it enough to simply drain a little > to release the pressure and drop the water level? The system hasn't been > drained in the five years I have lived here, so if this is a recommended thing > to do anyway, I guess now is as good a time as any. > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jnew at hazelden.ca From eric at megageek.com Wed Mar 14 13:44:25 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:44:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! Message-ID: Sorry about the off topic post, but my back is against the wall and I don't know where else to turn. Here is the issue... I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can select that format. Now the problem... If I enter a date in that format, Excel flips it. (Ex. If I type in "03/09/06" Excel will translate it to "09/03/06" when I move to another cell.) If I use a date like "15/03/06" it will not move the date, BUT, I can't run formulas against the cell (which is something I need to do.) It seems like excel will only except me typing in a date in the format of month-day-year no matter what. Since the form I get the dates from isn't like this, it will be way too confusing to continue doing that format. I've tried creating a custom date cell format and it does the same thing. Note: this is excel 2003 version on an XP machine. But it also does this on Vista machine with Excel 2007. HELP!!!! Thanks in advance. Shop content, I can't go work in the shop until I finish this spreadsheet! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Mar 14 14:31:42 2012 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2012, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Note: this is excel 2003 version on an XP machine. But it also does this > on Vista machine with Excel 2007. Just tried it on Excel 2010, and setting the Language to Uk-ian works as you hoped it would. You may be suffering from a bug. -- David Hillman From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Wed Mar 14 15:00:20 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:00:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As you said, the custom format can fix the display problem. I'm not sure I follow the data-entry problem. Are you reading dates off of forms and manually typing them in one at a time? If so, you are trying to avoid having to reverse the day and month as you type? You could work around this by having a column for day, month, year, then in another column use the date() function to combine the day, month, year in the proper order. Or, are you pasting in a bunch of dates in UK format? - Ian On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:44 PM, wrote: > Sorry about the off topic post, but my back is against the wall and I > don't know where else to turn. > > Here is the issue... > > I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format > dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can select > that format. > > Now the problem... > > If I enter a date in that format, Excel flips it. (Ex. If I type in > "03/09/06" Excel will translate it to "09/03/06" when I move to another > cell.) > > If I use a date like "15/03/06" it will not move the date, BUT, I can't > run formulas against the cell (which is something I need to do.) > > It seems like excel will only except me typing in a date in the format of > month-day-year no matter what. Since the form I get the dates from isn't > like this, it will be way too confusing to continue doing that format. > > I've tried creating a custom date cell format and it does the same thing. > > Note: this is excel 2003 version on an XP machine. But it also does this > on Vista machine with Excel 2007. > > HELP!!!! > > Thanks in advance. > > Shop content, I can't go work in the shop until I finish this spreadsheet! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Wed Mar 14 15:00:19 2012 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:00:19 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6106E3.10700@talktalk.net> You might have to temporarily change the PC's date format to UK - enter the data then change it back. On 14/03/2012 19:44, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Sorry about the off topic post, but my back is against the wall and I > don't know where else to turn. > > Here is the issue... > > I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format > dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can select > that format. > > Now the problem... > > If I enter a date in that format, Excel flips it. (Ex. If I type in > "03/09/06" Excel will translate it to "09/03/06" when I move to another > cell.) > > If I use a date like "15/03/06" it will not move the date, BUT, I can't > run formulas against the cell (which is something I need to do.) > > It seems like excel will only except me typing in a date in the format of > month-day-year no matter what. Since the form I get the dates from isn't > like this, it will be way too confusing to continue doing that format. > > I've tried creating a custom date cell format and it does the same thing. > > Note: this is excel 2003 version on an XP machine. But it also does this > on Vista machine with Excel 2007. > > HELP!!!! > > Thanks in advance. > > Shop content, I can't go work in the shop until I finish this spreadsheet! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Mar 14 15:14:56 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:14:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F610A50.5050404@xxiii.com> On 3/14/2012 3:44 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format > dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can select > that format. Tried any alternative software? Like LibreOffice (formerly OpenOffice.org)? Totally Free: http://www.libreoffice.org/ Or if it's something non-confidential and you don't mind sharing, shoot me a copy off-list and I might be able to assist. I don't think you have a file corruption problem. But FWIW, if anyone DOES run into such a thing - like MS Office just hanging when you try to open a file, Libre or Open Office are about the best recovery tools around. Eg: coworker had lots of time invested in 300+ page Word 'Doc. PC crashes. Afterward, Word hangs when trying to open it again, despite the "auto save" feature being on. Tried 4 versions of Word, from 2000 - 2007 and the free "MS Word Viewer" -- every one of them does the SAME DANG THING - hangs while opening it. Because the code is probably identical in all 5 programs. And MS figures they're infallible, thus the code is written with NO fault tolerance for a corrupted document. The open source products mentioned had to reverse engineer Microsoft's proprietary file format. And knew and admitted they couldn't figure it all out. So their code is smart enough to "read around" things it doesn't understand, and when that happens, usually loses some pretty formatting, but all the text is still intact. In the above case, OpenOffice.org Writer read the whole .doc file intact, save for one paragraph of partial text and garbled gibberish, but was happy to re-save it as a .doc file that Word could then read! ie: >99.8% of document recovered, that WAS a total loss using MS's own product. We now just use Libre Office at the company. -Wayne From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Mar 14 15:46:47 2012 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:46:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: <4F610A50.5050404@xxiii.com> References: <4F610A50.5050404@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <001201cd022b$f5da8300$e18f8900$@ameritech.net> Office has long had an "Open and Repair" option under File Open. To the right of the Open button, there's a down-arrow. Click that and select the last option, "Open and Repair". It's not well-known, but it's been there a long time. I think I became aware of it around Office 2000, when we had some issues with old documents previously translated from WordPerfect. Still there in Office 2010. Word and Excel have it - I presume some other Office apps have it, but I haven't looked. Karl PS - Have you tried just rebooting? OS'es are much more stable nowadays, but a reboot can still cure some weird little issues. -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! On 3/14/2012 3:44 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format > dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can > select that format. Tried any alternative software? Like LibreOffice (formerly OpenOffice.org)? Totally Free: http://www.libreoffice.org/ Or if it's something non-confidential and you don't mind sharing, shoot me a copy off-list and I might be able to assist. I don't think you have a file corruption problem. But FWIW, if anyone DOES run into such a thing - like MS Office just hanging when you try to open a file, Libre or Open Office are about the best recovery tools around. Eg: coworker had lots of time invested in 300+ page Word 'Doc. PC crashes. Afterward, Word hangs when trying to open it again, despite the "auto save" feature being on. Tried 4 versions of Word, from 2000 - 2007 and the free "MS Word Viewer" -- every one of them does the SAME DANG THING - hangs while opening it. Because the code is probably identical in all 5 programs. And MS figures they're infallible, thus the code is written with NO fault tolerance for a corrupted document. The open source products mentioned had to reverse engineer Microsoft's proprietary file format. And knew and admitted they couldn't figure it all out. So their code is smart enough to "read around" things it doesn't understand, and when that happens, usually loses some pretty formatting, but all the text is still intact. In the above case, OpenOffice.org Writer read the whole .doc file intact, save for one paragraph of partial text and garbled gibberish, but was happy to re-save it as a .doc file that Word could then read! ie: >99.8% of document recovered, that WAS a total loss using MS's own product. We now just use Libre Office at the company. -Wayne From shannahquilts at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 15:55:04 2012 From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:55:04 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I second the suggestion for OpenOffice or its descendent. That said, I'd be really interested in hearing when/if you get it fixed, what worked. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 14 16:03:41 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:03:41 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0f1701cd022e$51b3a010$f51ae030$@rr.com> > I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format > dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can > select > that format. The cell format in Excel only controls how the cell value is displayed, NOT how it is entered. I believe that, in order to change the entry method, you need to change the regional options in Control Panel, which of course changes it for the entire system not just Excel. To do what you want within Excel without changing the system date format, I think you will have to enter the date as a string, and then use a formula (or VB script) to do the conversion. Or, here is a plug-in (which I know absolutely nothing else about) that claims to do it for you: http://www.rondebruin.nl/qde.htm -- Randall From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 16:33:02 2012 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:33:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It sounds like you have the column you are adding values to set for UK style dates. I'm not sure if you want to change the old cells or just the new ones, so here goes... highlight the cells or column you want to change.in the "Format" pull down menu pick cells or press ctrl 1pick number tabpick date from the choices on the leftpick the format from the choices on the rightpress OK That should do it. Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > From: eric at megageek.com > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:44:25 -0400 > Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! > > Sorry about the off topic post, but my back is against the wall and I > don't know where else to turn. > > Here is the issue... > > I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format > dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can select > that format. > > Now the problem... > > If I enter a date in that format, Excel flips it. (Ex. If I type in > "03/09/06" Excel will translate it to "09/03/06" when I move to another > cell.) > > If I use a date like "15/03/06" it will not move the date, BUT, I can't > run formulas against the cell (which is something I need to do.) > > It seems like excel will only except me typing in a date in the format of > month-day-year no matter what. Since the form I get the dates from isn't > like this, it will be way too confusing to continue doing that format. > > I've tried creating a custom date cell format and it does the same thing. > > Note: this is excel 2003 version on an XP machine. But it also does this > on Vista machine with Excel 2007. > > HELP!!!! > > Thanks in advance. > > Shop content, I can't go work in the shop until I finish this spreadsheet! > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From eric at megageek.com Wed Mar 14 20:44:32 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:44:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The dates are being manually entered. The problem is that with the format of dd/mm/yy, when the form is corrected, updated or modified, anyone will put it in in that format, and it will get reversed and the data will be compromised. Stuart's recommendation works, but I'm afraid as the file moves from computer to computer, the date format will be corrupted. I just don't understand why Excel HAS to change the data as it is inputted. There should be a way to turn it off on a form. (FWIW, it seems that an asterisk in front of the cell format mask prevents this, BUT, the asterisk doesn't work in custom formats, and there is no US format that is *dd/mm/yy.) Anyone know any MS knuckleheads I can strangle? Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Ian McFetridge 03/14/2012 17:22 To eric at megageek.com cc shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject Re: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! As you said, the custom format can fix the display problem. I'm not sure I follow the data-entry problem. Are you reading dates off of forms and manually typing them in one at a time? If so, you are trying to avoid having to reverse the day and month as you type? You could work around this by having a column for day, month, year, then in another column use the date() function to combine the day, month, year in the proper order. Or, are you pasting in a bunch of dates in UK format? - Ian On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:44 PM, wrote: Sorry about the off topic post, but my back is against the wall and I don't know where else to turn. Here is the issue... I have an excel spreadsheet that has to have a date cell in the format dd/mm/yy. No problem. I set the language to English "UK" and I can select that format. Now the problem... If I enter a date in that format, Excel flips it. (Ex. If I type in "03/09/06" Excel will translate it to "09/03/06" when I move to another cell.) If I use a date like "15/03/06" it will not move the date, BUT, I can't run formulas against the cell (which is something I need to do.) It seems like excel will only except me typing in a date in the format of month-day-year no matter what. Since the form I get the dates from isn't like this, it will be way too confusing to continue doing that format. I've tried creating a custom date cell format and it does the same thing. Note: this is excel 2003 version on an XP machine. But it also does this on Vista machine with Excel 2007. HELP!!!! Thanks in advance. Shop content, I can't go work in the shop until I finish this spreadsheet! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 14 21:17:16 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:17:16 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0f8c01cd025a$209e7460$61db5d20$@rr.com> > I just don't understand why Excel HAS to change the data as it is > inputted. No, no, the problem is that it DOESN'T change the data as it is inputted! The real issue is that the cell format is only applied when the date is output. Excel uses a special internal format to store things that it knows are "dates", and the input routine for "dates" is selected by looking at the system date format, not the cell format. When you do something to make your input not be a valid date field, the "dates" input routine fails and Excel stores it as a string instead. That is why doing things like entering *dd/mm/yy _seems_ to work; the input is being stored as a string rather than a date. Which as I said before is the key to how to do what you want to do. Enter the date as a string, and then write the function to parse it into year, month and day. Then you can use =DATE() to turn it into a "date" and display that however you like. -- Randall From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Wed Mar 14 21:59:57 2012 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:59:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage In-Reply-To: References: <4ED44A86234844E2AF765DE80C9B8E08@delld520><1331311360.69991.1331428339664.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: If you even considered it I would recommend at least burying a > or 1 PVC pipe in there, capped at each end. You can always hook it up (or not) later. _____ From: Ian McFetridge [mailto:shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:08 PM To: pethier at comcast.net; Shop Talk Cc: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage Thanks Mark and Phil, I briefly thought about running water (and maybe sewer) in the trench, but I decided to keep it simple at this point and just do electric. Thanks, Ian From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Thu Mar 15 02:35:06 2012 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:35:06 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> Ah - just set it to the 'UK' setting and be done! Start the campaign to change your fellow Americans... 1. It's not just the UK - most of the rest of the world does it dd/mm/yyyy (certainly all of Europe) 2. It's more logical (you wouldn't write the number 124 as twenty, one hundred and four?) 3. I notice the US immigration authorities require dates to be written dd/mm/yyy Neil On 15/03/2012 02:44, eric at megageek.com wrote: > The dates are being manually entered. The problem is that with the format > of dd/mm/yy, when the form is corrected, updated or modified, anyone will > put it in in that format, and it will get reversed and the data will be > compromised. From eric at megageek.com Thu Mar 15 06:09:28 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:09:28 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone that helped out. Lots of great insight here! (I know I can count on this group for answers.) Here is what I'm going with. I will either change my OS to UK (But I have to see how this affects the file when its transferred to other computers not on the UK setting, or I will make a BIG note for people to ensure they put the date in opposite what it really is. FWIW, I would much rather see a date standard of yyyy/mm/dd. The reason is that when this is used, computers list files in chronological order nicely. This is how I always do it personally. Thanks again to all. As always, I'll buy you all a virtual cup of coffee or tea! (But actually I'll donate some real moola to help Mark.) Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Neil Sherry Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 03/15/2012 04:32 To shop-talk at autox.team.net cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! Ah - just set it to the 'UK' setting and be done! Start the campaign to change your fellow Americans... 1. It's not just the UK - most of the rest of the world does it dd/mm/yyyy (certainly all of Europe) 2. It's more logical (you wouldn't write the number 124 as twenty, one hundred and four?) 3. I notice the US immigration authorities require dates to be written dd/mm/yyy Neil On 15/03/2012 02:44, eric at megageek.com wrote: > The dates are being manually entered. The problem is that with the format > of dd/mm/yy, when the form is corrected, updated or modified, anyone will > put it in in that format, and it will get reversed and the data will be > compromised. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Mar 15 07:06:08 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:06:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe if you change the format to one like "25-mar-2012", you can enter dates in that format with no ambiguity, and later the spreadsheet can be printed or displayed in whatever format you want? Doug On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:44 PM, wrote: > The dates are being manually entered. The problem is that with the format > of dd/mm/yy, when the form is corrected, updated or modified, anyone will > put it in in that format, and it will get reversed and the data will be > compromised. > > Stuart's recommendation works, but I'm afraid as the file moves from > computer to computer, the date format will be corrupted. > > I just don't understand why Excel HAS to change the data as it is > inputted. There should be a way to turn it off on a form. > > (FWIW, it seems that an asterisk in front of the cell format mask prevents > this, BUT, the asterisk doesn't work in custom formats, and there is no US > format that is *dd/mm/yy.) > > Anyone know any MS knuckleheads I can strangle? From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Thu Mar 15 09:03:57 2012 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:03:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage In-Reply-To: References: <4ED44A86234844E2AF765DE80C9B8E08@delld520> <1331311360.69991.1331428339664.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: That's a good point, even if it is only a fair-weather water line at that depth. It would be nice to have water out by the shed and garage. Thanks, Ian On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Mark Miller wrote: > ** > > If you even considered it I would recommend at least burying a > or 1 > PVC pipe in there, capped at each end. You can always hook it up (or not) > later.**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ian McFetridge [mailto:shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org] > *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:08 PM > *To:* pethier at comcast.net; Shop Talk > *Cc:* **mark**miller at threeboysfarm.com > **** > *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage > **** > > ** ** > > Thanks Mark and Phil,**** > > ** ** > > I briefly thought about running water (and maybe sewer) in the trench, but > I decided to keep it simple at this point and just do electric.**** > > ** ** > > Thanks, > Ian**** From ronnie.day at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 09:17:28 2012 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:17:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage In-Reply-To: References: <4ED44A86234844E2AF765DE80C9B8E08@delld520> <1331311360.69991.1331428339664.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Many place won't let you run water and power in the same trench. Probably a good idea to check on that. On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote: > That's a good point, even if it is only a fair-weather water line at that > depth. It would be nice to have water out by the shed and garage. > > Thanks, > Ian > > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Mark Miller > wrote: > > > ** > > > > If you even considered it I would recommend at least burying a > or 1 > > PVC pipe in there, capped at each end. You can always hook it up (or > not) > > later.**** > > > > ** ** > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* Ian McFetridge [mailto:shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org] > > *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:08 PM > > *To:* pethier at comcast.net; Shop Talk > > *Cc:* **mark**miller at threeboysfarm.com > > **** > > *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage > > **** > > > > ** ** > > > > Thanks Mark and Phil,**** > > > > ** ** > > > > I briefly thought about running water (and maybe sewer) in the trench, > but > > I decided to keep it simple at this point and just do electric.**** > > > > ** ** > > > > Thanks, > > Ian**** > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com From pj_thomas at comcast.net Thu Mar 15 09:33:24 2012 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:33:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage In-Reply-To: References: <4ED44A86234844E2AF765DE80C9B8E08@delld520> <1331311360.69991.1331428339664.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F620BC4.7060309@comcast.net> On 3/15/2012 11:17 AM, Ronnie Day wrote: > Many place won't let you run water and power in the same trench. Probably a > good idea to check on that. >From http://www.hcnv.us/bldg_dpt/documents/UtilityBurial-SupportRequirements5-08.pdf Electrical lines can be placed in the same trench as the water line with the electrical line placed above the water line with a twelve (12) inch earth separation. Not sure if this NEC, but I believe it is. Peter T. > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Ian McFetridge > wrote: > >> That's a good point, even if it is only a fair-weather water line at that >> depth. It would be nice to have water out by the shed and garage. >> >> Thanks, >> Ian >> >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Mark Miller >> wrote: >> >>> ** >>> >>> If you even considered it I would recommend at least burying a> or 1 >>> PVC pipe in there, capped at each end. You can always hook it up (or >> not) >>> later.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Ian McFetridge [mailto:shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org] >>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:08 PM >>> *To:* pethier at comcast.net; Shop Talk >>> *Cc:* **mark**miller at threeboysfarm.com >>> **** >>> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Power to the garage >>> **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Thanks Mark and Phil,**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> I briefly thought about running water (and maybe sewer) in the trench, >> but >>> I decided to keep it simple at this point and just do electric.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Ian**** >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Mar 15 14:23:39 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:23:39 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com> > (But I have > to see how this affects the file when its transferred to other > computers not on the UK setting, The dates already entered will be fine; but if anyone enters a new date, Excel will read it according to the system setting (ie mm/dd/yyyy in the US). Then display it according to the cell format, so it will appear that month & day are reversed. > FWIW, I would much rather see a date standard of yyyy/mm/dd. Personally, I have a lot more trouble figuring out how many days are in a month (was 2000 a leap year? Is 2100?) than what century it is. Everyone seems to think metric is the solution; why not a metric time system? -- Randall From bk13 at earthlink.net Thu Mar 15 16:39:59 2012 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:39:59 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] metric time - was OT- Excel help In-Reply-To: <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com> References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4F626FBF.9040506@earthlink.net> On 3/15/2012 1:23 PM, Randall wrote: > Personally, I have a lot more trouble figuring out how many days are > in a month (was 2000 a leap year? Is 2100?) than what century it is. > Everyone seems to think metric is the solution; why not a metric time > system? -- Randall Why not a metric time is a good question. Do a search on "metric time" and you can read some interesting articles. Then again, what about decimal time. At some point, the day could go metric and that makes sense. To try and make a year or month metric is a bit more of a mess. The next issue would be whether or not we still have time zones or just go with a universal time. I guess this will have to wait till we all start living in space or distant locations. For now, I'd be happy to just get rid of daylight savings time. After all, it isn't like it is really being saved in a bank anywhere for the winter. Who really knows the difference between daylight time and standard time? Brian From eric at megageek.com Thu Mar 15 16:52:40 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:52:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metric time - was OT- Excel help In-Reply-To: <4F626FBF.9040506@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Brian writes... "For now, I'd be happy to just get rid of daylight savings time." AMEN!!!! First off, I would love to see the amount of money and resources WASTED a few years ago when congress changed the dates!!! (I remember working last and expending quite a bit of resources to comply with the change!) I thin daylight savings time is best summed up like this.... Only a government can think that you cut a end off of a blanket, then so it back on the other end, to make the blanket longer! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From strovato at optonline.net Thu Mar 15 18:31:55 2012 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:31:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <0M0Y003TDC7V8LN0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I've heard the complaint that 9/11 is America's way of pushing MM/DD on the rest of the world. Not the actual event, obviously. Rather, the fact that it is referred to as "9/11" rather than "11/9"! -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 04:35 AM 3/15/2012, Neil Sherry wrote: >Ah - just set it to the 'UK' setting and be done! Start the campaign to >change your fellow Americans... > > 1. It's not just the UK - most of the rest of the world does it > dd/mm/yyyy (certainly all of Europe) > 2. It's more logical (you wouldn't write the number 124 as twenty, one > hundred and four?) > 3. I notice the US immigration authorities require dates to be written > dd/mm/yyy From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Mar 15 18:37:02 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:37:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT- Excel help, (before I shoot my computer)! In-Reply-To: <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com> References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com> Message-ID: They tried, but it didn't catch on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar Doug On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Randall wrote: > Everyone > seems to think metric is the solution; why not a metric time system? From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 18:39:05 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:39:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metric time - was OT- Excel help In-Reply-To: <4F626FBF.9040506@earthlink.net> References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com> <4F626FBF.9040506@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Then again, what about decimal time. In my job, I often have to make sense of time-based data that spans days or weeks. The way we do this is to assign each data point a number based on the day of the year, plus a fraction representing the elapsed part of the 24-hour day. Three decimal places is enough to represent minute-by-minute data, and pretty soon you learn to recognize that 62.25 is an early March day at 6:00 in the morning, while 185.875 is a good time to see some fireworks. I don't know if I want to live in that world all the time, though... Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Thu Mar 15 19:07:54 2012 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:07:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] metric time - was OT- Excel help In-Reply-To: References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net>, , <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com>, <4F626FBF.9040506@earthlink.net>, Message-ID: If Microsoft ruled the world, 15-Mar-2012 20:05 would be 40983.84.I do not see that being hard to remember, do you? Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From mark at bradakis.com Thu Mar 15 19:09:57 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:09:57 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] metric time - was OT- Excel help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6292E5.10004@bradakis.com> As far as computers running variants of Unix are concerned, time began at 12:00 am, January 1st, 1970. Want to know how many seconds have elapsed since then? mjb. From rwil at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 15 19:10:37 2012 From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:10:37 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] metric time - was OT- Excel help In-Reply-To: References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net> <001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com> <4F626FBF.9040506@earthlink.net> Message-ID: anyone ever used or heard of the Julian date? 16 digits covers most anything you might need as accurately as you might want. -Roland On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:39:05 -0400, you wrote: ::On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: ::> Then again, what about decimal time. :: ::In my job, I often have to make sense of time-based data that spans ::days or weeks. The way we do this is to assign each data point a ::number based on the day of the year, plus a fraction representing the ::elapsed part of the 24-hour day. Three decimal places is enough to ::represent minute-by-minute data, and pretty soon you learn to ::recognize that 62.25 is an early March day at 6:00 in the morning, ::while 185.875 is a good time to see some fireworks. :: ::I don't know if I want to live in that world all the time, though... :: ::Jeff Scarbrough ::Corrosion Acres, Ga. ::____________________________________ From mark at bradakis.com Thu Mar 15 21:17:46 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:17:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this thing on?? Message-ID: <20120316031746.4C9032E076@bradakis.com> Those of you who get these messages in real time and not in digest mode should see some links below. One is to the Team.Net email archives. If you have a minute click on the link. Try a search. Tell us what happens. Well, not all at once, we don't need hundreds and hundreds of test results messages flooding our inboxes. mjb, who may have fixed one issue. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Mar 16 01:20:24 2012 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:20:24 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] metric time - was OT- Excel help In-Reply-To: References: <4F61A9BA.5030407@talktalk.net><001e01cd02e9$82d057e0$887107a0$@rr.com><4F626FBF.9040506@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02d101cd0345$41742590$0301a8c0@randall> > anyone ever used or heard of the Julian date? > 16 digits covers most anything you might need as accurately as you > might want. Then there is GPS time, usually stored as the number of weeks since Jan 4 1980, plus a double precision count of seconds (and fractions of a second) within the week. But when you start worrying about fractions of a nanosecond (our overall accuracy budget is about 100 picoseconds), accuracy becomes a very slippery concept. Is that in the GPS satellite time frame, or the user time frame, or the observed satellite time frame? -- Randall From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Fri Mar 16 07:25:34 2012 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:25:34 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this thing on?? In-Reply-To: <20120316031746.4C9032E076@bradakis.com> References: <20120316031746.4C9032E076@bradakis.com> Message-ID: It seems to work for me. The page came up and I was able to drill down into the triumph list. Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > From: mark at bradakis.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:17:46 -0600 > Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this thing on?? > > Those of you who get these messages in real time and not in digest > mode should see some links below. One is to the Team.Net email > archives. If you have a minute click on the link. Try a search. > Tell us what happens. Well, not all at once, we don't need hundreds > and hundreds of test results messages flooding our inboxes. > > mjb, who may have fixed one issue. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Mar 16 12:42:40 2012 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:42:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a small hot water radiator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > > > So, that is the background. My question is around removing the old radiator. > The bathroom is on the second floor, which has four other cast iron radiators > on it. For what it is worth, this one is the farthest from the boiler. > Should I completely drain the system, or is it enough to simply drain a little > to release the pressure and drop the water level? The system hasn't been > drained in the five years I have lived here, so if this is a recommended thing > to do anyway, I guess now is as good a time as any. Draining and refilling, or flushing, is frowned upon because it introduces oxygen to the system which corrodes it. Drain as little as possible to get the job done. If there's a bleeder on that radiator or at the highest one in that circuit it'll be easy to drop the level down. Otherwise you'll likely have lots of stuck water that will be released when you open the radiators ocnnections. if you're lucky you can just crack them open enough to allow air in while draining from below, and have minimal spillage. Have plenty of towels around anyway :-) From jandkstone99 at msn.com Fri Mar 16 19:30:31 2012 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:30:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a small hot water radiator In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thanks Jim. We'll be removing it next week and will try to drain as little as possible. > From: jamesf at groupwbench.org > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:42:40 -0400 > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Removing a small hot water radiator > > On Mar 14, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > > > > > > So, that is the background. My question is around removing the old > radiator. > > The bathroom is on the second floor, which has four other cast iron > radiators > > on it. For what it is worth, this one is the farthest from the boiler. > > Should I completely drain the system, or is it enough to simply drain a > little > > to release the pressure and drop the water level? The system hasn't been > > drained in the five years I have lived here, so if this is a recommended > thing > > to do anyway, I guess now is as good a time as any. > > Draining and refilling, or flushing, is frowned upon because it introduces > oxygen to the system which corrodes it. Drain as little as possible to get the > job done. > > If there's a bleeder on that radiator or at the highest one in that circuit > it'll be easy to drop the level down. Otherwise you'll likely have lots of > stuck water that will be released when you open the radiators ocnnections. if > you're lucky you can just crack them open enough to allow air in while > draining from below, and have minimal spillage. > > Have plenty of towels around anyway :-) > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From tputland at charter.net Sat Mar 17 09:07:48 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists Message-ID: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> A qustion for engineers here maybe? I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. The joists are approx 2' apart and made of 2x4s. The roof is a 4 12 pitch. The car body might weigh as much as 700 pounds but I have yet to get an accurate answer. (I thought I had read at one point that the body weighed between 400 and 500 pounds.) What do I need to do to reinforce the joists in order to be able to do this? Or is this just too much weight? I've seen pictures of this having been done but do not know whose they were or what they might have done to be able to hang this kind of weight. Thanks!! tim From darrellw360 at mac.com Sat Mar 17 09:17:45 2012 From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 08:17:45 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> References: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2012, at 8:07 AM, Tim wrote: > I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop > and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. Hi Tim, For what it's worth, I lifted the body of my TR4A from the garage joists. I'm not sure what the stripped body weighs, but since I could fairly easily lift each end, I figured no more than 4-500 lbs. And since I can stand on one of the joists, and I'm a bit north of 200 lbs, it seemed OK to me. I didn't leave it to hang, I put sawhorses under to support it. I put some big screw eyes into the joists (one at each end of the car), and used two block and tackles to raise/lower the body. -Darrell -- Darrell Walker 66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L 81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206 Vancouver, WA, USA From darmstrong at nexicom.net Sat Mar 17 09:37:37 2012 From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:37:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> References: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> Message-ID: <440A6C2D34AF4255A1C771C15F5D4D14@CAD> It is important to distribute the weight & not support it all on 1 joist. Put a 2x6 or 4x4 across several trusses and hang the car from that board. This will distribute the weight across several trusses. Do this at both ends of the car. You should be able to get the weight supported by each truss to under a hundred pounds each. Doug Armstrong -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tim Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:08 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: reinforcing roof joists A qustion for engineers here maybe? I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. The joists are approx 2' apart and made of 2x4s. The roof is a 4 12 pitch. The car body might weigh as much as 700 pounds but I have yet to get an accurate answer. (I thought I had read at one point that the body weighed between 400 and 500 pounds.) What do I need to do to reinforce the joists in order to be able to do this? Or is this just too much weight? I've seen pictures of this having been done but do not know whose they were or what they might have done to be able to hang this kind of weight. Thanks!! tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darmstrong at nexicom.net From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sat Mar 17 09:45:56 2012 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:45:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> References: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2012, at 11:07 AM, Tim wrote: > A qustion for engineers here maybe? > > I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop > and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. > > The joists are approx 2' apart and made of 2x4s. The roof is a 4 12 > pitch. The car body might weigh as much as 700 pounds but I have yet to > get an accurate answer. (I thought I had read at one point that the body > weighed between 400 and 500 pounds.) It's important to get some terminology straight before answering this. Rafters form the pitch of the roof; joists are parallel to the floor and stop the walls from spreading out (and occasionally are strong enough to support storage up there): http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/images/anatomy-of-a-common-rafter.png The span of the joists is important. How long are they? 2x4s will hold a lot of weight but not if they're 20' long. Trusses are pre-manufactured as a triangle and might support a car body, might not. It depends how they are held together. What do you have up there? From jem at milleredp.com Sat Mar 17 11:19:06 2012 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 10:19:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: References: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> Message-ID: <4F64C78A.9030201@milleredp.com> > It's important to get some terminology straight before answering this. Rafters > form the pitch of the roof; joists are parallel to the floor and stop the > walls from spreading out (and occasionally are strong enough to support > storage up there): > > http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/images/anatomy-of-a-common-rafter.png > > The span of the joists is important. How long are they? 2x4s will hold a lot > of weight but not if they're 20' long. > > Trusses are pre-manufactured as a triangle and might support a car body, might > not. It depends how they are held together. As you've noted, with common rafters the joist is primarily in tension, and at minimum it's sized for that and a modest dead-load. Maximum span for a 2x4 joist at 24in OC is going to be no more than 10ft, maybe less. http://www.msrlumber.org/spantables.pdf Trusses are a different can of worms, you'll probably have vertical loading on the lower chord of a truss, they may or may not have enough capacity (if the trusses were designed for a tile roof and the builder ran out of money and instead you got plywood and composite shingles you might have enough total extra dead-load capacity to lift a Suburban) but, absent some real data to the contrary I wouldn't trust the nail plates etc. that hold them together with much of a tensive load. I'm not an engineer, but if it were my garage and if we are talking about common rafters and a 9ft-ish-wide garage and the structure was reasonably sound and didn't have some unusually heavy roofing or snowfall considerations I'd probably put a few vertical 2x4s up to the rafters (what's your rafter spacing?) to pass the load up to the load-bearing part of the structure, in addition to doing something to distribute the load across the joists. John. From Bob at texmog.com Sat Mar 17 20:51:07 2012 From: Bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:51:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: References: <5dedf127.e1f02.13621334079.Webtop.43@charter.net> Message-ID: When I built my garage I drilled a one inch hole at the top of four of the rafters. I placed two one inch steel bar through two of the holes parallel to the roof. From the ends of these bars I hung a chain with all four of the chains meeting and joined together at the joists. I've use this to pull engines, lift cars and unload stuff from my pickup. This splits the load among four rafter (2x6's). Bob Nogueira On Mar 17, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > On Mar 17, 2012, at 11:07 AM, Tim wrote: > >> A qustion for engineers here maybe? >> >> I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop >> and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. >> >> The joists are approx 2' apart and made of 2x4s. The roof is a 4 12 >> pitch. The car body might weigh as much as 700 pounds but I have yet to >> get an accurate answer. (I thought I had read at one point that the body >> weighed between 400 and 500 pounds.) > > > It's important to get some terminology straight before answering this. Rafters > form the pitch of the roof; joists are parallel to the floor and stop the > walls from spreading out (and occasionally are strong enough to support > storage up there): > > http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/images/anatomy-of-a-common-rafter.png > > The span of the joists is important. How long are they? 2x4s will hold a lot > of weight but not if they're 20' long. > > Trusses are pre-manufactured as a triangle and might support a car body, might > not. It depends how they are held together. > > What do you have up there? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bob at texmog.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Mar 18 13:57:54 2012 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 15:57:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20120318195754.9GYAQ.128731.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> I am an engineer and since your roof could be constructed in a number of different ways this could be an easy problem to analyze or a difficult problem. (I have seen roofs constructed the same way birds build nests- just nail enough pieces of wood together that they all hold each other up and it defies rational analysis.) If the original structure is 2x4's then it is probably a truss. I can't tell you if you can or cannot get by with what you are wanting to do but I will tell you what I did. We have a 30 year old house with a 2-car garage. I wanted to pull the engine out of my MG Midget and I have been in the attic above my garage several times with my 200+ pound weight standing on a single ceiling joist (bottom chord or a crude truss). I figured the engine certainly weighed less than twice my weight so I connected between 2 trusses with a wood beam I made by gluing a pair of 2x4's together and I hung my hoist from the center of that. The OP has the advantage of having a long item that can be hung from maybe 5 of his trusses. He can test each truss individually with his own body weight and if that works then he can expect that if he distributes the load evenly between all of the trusses then he could probably support the entire body. The key words here are DISTRIBUTE EVENLY. Of course without proper analysis to prove that what you are doing is totally correct, many precautions would be prudent. First of all this should be a temporary situation- lift the body, roll out the chassis, lower the body. Second do not let any person be under the body while it is hanging. Wood unlike steel or concrete does change with short time and the building codes will allow more load onto wood framing if the load is going to be there for a short period of time. (For instance roofs with snow loading are designed differently from floors with permanent loading.) What you can get by with for a couple of hours might be different from what would be safe for 6 months. > > I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop > > and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. > > For what it's worth, I lifted the body of my TR4A from the garage joists. I'm not sure what the stripped body weighs, but since I could fairly easily lift each end, I figured no more than 4-500 lbs. And since I can stand on one of the joists, and I'm a bit north of 200 lbs, it seemed OK to me. I didn't leave it to hang, I put sawhorses under to support it. I put some big screw eyes into the joists (one at each end of the car), and used two block and tackles to raise/lower the body. From tputland at charter.net Sun Mar 18 17:20:32 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists Message-ID: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> Ok, I have standard trusses up there, 20ish feet long, joined by those rectangular plates that are perforated for nailing purposes. I am pretty sure this garage was a kit from Menards. The horizontal 2x4s are two pieces. If I spread the load out over four or five rows of trusses, will they support the weight? Is there any reinforcement I can do either way? Thanks very much! tim On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > On Mar 17, 2012, at 11:07 AM, Tim wrote: > >> A qustion for engineers here maybe? >> >> I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my >> shop >> and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. >> >> The joists are approx 2' apart and made of 2x4s. The roof is a 4 12 >> pitch. The car body might weigh as much as 700 pounds but I have yet >> to >> get an accurate answer. (I thought I had read at one point that the >> body >> weighed between 400 and 500 pounds.) > > > It's important to get some terminology straight before answering this. > Rafters > form the pitch of the roof; joists are parallel to the floor and stop > the > walls from spreading out (and occasionally are strong enough to > support > storage up there): > > > http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/images/anatomy-of-a-common-rafter.png > > The span of the joists is important. How long are they? 2x4s will hold > a lot > of weight but not if they're 20' long. > > Trusses are pre-manufactured as a triangle and might support a car > body, might > not. It depends how they are held together. > > What do you have up there? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From fishplate at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 20:11:05 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:11:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> References: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 7:20 PM, Tim wrote: > If I spread the load out over four or five rows of trusses, will they > support the weight? Is there any reinforcement I can do either way? Probably - and probably. Since I don't have to stamp my plans, here's what I'd do: I'd put a pair of 2x4s on edge, nailed together, on each side of the body; use them to support the load for as little time as possible. For added security, you could sister the joists...add another 2x4 alongside the existing ones in the truss, nailed securely, for each truss that is carrying the added load. If you wanted to go completely nuts, you could sister the web members in critical places, so it's all hanging from the rafters, which are probably single pieces meeting at the ridge. Just be sure not to add so much wood that the only load it can support is itself... When I built my garage, I specified 2x10 on 16" centers for my joists. Probably overkill. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From fishplate at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 20:12:00 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:12:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: References: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > I'd put a pair of 2x4s on edge, nailed together, on each > side of the body; I meant to add that these would run perpendicular to the existing joists. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Mar 18 20:45:07 2012 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:45:07 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> References: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> Message-ID: <00f401cd057a$4baeac60$0301a8c0@randall> > Is there any reinforcement I can do either way? What about running temporary support poles to the floor? For temporary use, they don't need to be anything fancy; and wood is a whole lot stronger in compression than in tension or shear. A 4x4 (or even a pair of sistered 2x4) will easily carry a lot more than your Datsun body. -- Randall From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sun Mar 18 20:46:50 2012 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:46:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> References: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> Message-ID: <4F926156-07D3-4AF4-AFE8-D6548D37491B@groupwbench.org> 2 pieces like doubled up? Or two pieces like cut in the middle and plated together? If the latter, I'd be skeptical. The former, you're probably ok with 150 pounds per. Can you test hang from one of them? If so, then you can use that as a guide to how much each can hold. jim On Mar 18, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Tim wrote: > Ok, I have standard trusses up there, 20ish feet long, joined by those rectangular plates that are perforated for nailing purposes. I am pretty sure this garage was a kit from Menards. The horizontal 2x4s are two pieces. > > If I spread the load out over four or five rows of trusses, will they support the weight? Is there any reinforcement I can do either way? > > Thanks very much! > tim From tputland at charter.net Mon Mar 19 04:59:27 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 06:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists Message-ID: <38e81075.45f5a0.1362a9c993e.Webtop.47@charter.net> "Can you test hang from one of them? If so, then you can use that as a guide to how much each can hold." Since I go 300 lbs minimum, I will do some hanging on the joists. I didn't think of that. If it can deal with my fat ass at any given point, then the car body load spread out over four of five joists should be fine. Thanks everyone! (you jus made my wife happy as i can now get one ore part car out from behind the shop!) Tim On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > 2 pieces like doubled up? Or two pieces like cut in the middle and > plated > together? If the latter, I'd be skeptical. The former, you're probably > ok with > 150 pounds per. > > Can you test hang from one of them? If so, then you can use that as a > guide to > how much each can hold. > > jim > > On Mar 18, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Tim wrote: > >> Ok, I have standard trusses up there, 20ish feet long, joined by >> those > rectangular plates that are perforated for nailing purposes. I am > pretty sure > this garage was a kit from Menards. The horizontal 2x4s are two > pieces. >> >> If I spread the load out over four or five rows of trusses, will they > support the weight? Is there any reinforcement I can do either way? >> >> Thanks very much! >> tim From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Mar 19 07:19:06 2012 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:19:06 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> References: <6a2d25af.45c8f3.136281cb8da.Webtop.48@charter.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120319091320.04c5bec0@cox.net> At 07:20 PM 3/18/2012, Tim wrote: >Ok, I have standard trusses up there, 20ish feet long, joined by those >rectangular plates that are perforated for nailing purposes. I am pretty sure >this garage was a kit from Menards. The horizontal 2x4s are two pieces. > >If I spread the load out over four or five rows of trusses, will they support the >weight? Is there any reinforcement I can do either way? Tim, Do you have a drywall celing installed? Is there decking over the joists where you want to have this lifting thing? To reinforce your joists for a lift, you can drill a hole in the joist and take some long 4x4s and stand them up to the joist and bolt throught the hole in the joist. If you have a dry wall ceiling, simply cut a hole large enough for the 4x4 to fit through. You can drill the hole from the attic side if you don't have decking over the area. You will probably need something like a 3/4" piece of plywood to act as feet for the posts so they are short enough for your to lift into place. When you are done with holding what ever it is up, you can remove the vertical supports and store them along the wall until the next time they are needed. John >On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > >>On Mar 17, 2012, at 11:07 AM, Tim wrote: >> >>>A qustion for engineers here maybe? >>> >>>I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop >>>and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. >>> >>>The joists are approx 2' apart and made of 2x4s. The roof is a 4 12 >>>pitch. The car body might weigh as much as 700 pounds but I have yet to >>>get an accurate answer. (I thought I had read at one point that the body >>>weighed between 400 and 500 pounds.) >> >> >>It's important to get some terminology straight before answering >>this. Rafters >>form the pitch of the roof; joists are parallel to the floor and stop the >>walls from spreading out (and occasionally are strong enough to support >>storage up there): >> >>http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/images/anatomy-of-a-common-rafter.png >> >>The span of the joists is important. How long are they? 2x4s will hold a lot >>of weight but not if they're 20' long. >> >>Trusses are pre-manufactured as a triangle and might support a car >>body, might >>not. It depends how they are held together. >> >>What do you have up there? >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >>Unsubscribe/Manage: >>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Mar 19 14:11:49 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:11:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <20120318195754.9GYAQ.128731.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> References: <20120318195754.9GYAQ.128731.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> Message-ID: <4F679305.9000803@xxiii.com> >>> I want to hang a Datsun Roadster car body from the joists above my shop >>> and garage space so I can start working on a frame in the shop. I totally agree with the guys that suggested ways of spreading the load over multiple joists or trusses, vs beefing up just a couple. Back in the early 70s when I was a kid my Dad built a 3 car garage with the intent of being able to hoist a big block V8 and trans' without pulling the roof down, as he claimed he'd seen friends do. He "boxed in" the 6 or 8 trusses over the stall with plywood, and at the top of each, cut a 2" radius semi-circle. Then put up a 4" OD steel pipe spanning all of them. But he staggered the depth, so with no load the pipe was sitting on the outer most plates. At the calculated flex of the pipe under full load (1100 lbs??) it would deflect and be roughly in contact with all the plates, hopefully distributing the load fairly evenly across all the trusses. It was "seat of the pants" engineering, and I don't think anyone had FEA software then, but it seemed sound. -Wayne From jdinnis at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 17:25:45 2012 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 18:25:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift Message-ID: Ok gang, I am way short on garage space and I am considering buying a 4-post storage/service lift to ease the congestion. My biggest concern is how to deal with getting the lift shipped to the house. Most of the lifts I have looked at state that they are too large/heavy for a liftgate. To complicate matters there is no way to get a semi-truck to the house. I know a medium sized straight truck can make the turn around, but that is about as big as I can accommodate. Anyone have any experience with this? Options? ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From gpd4 at juno.com Mon Mar 19 17:40:21 2012 From: gpd4 at juno.com (Gpd4) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:40:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495E80E3-915A-4B2C-8993-4D59BE305F63@juno.com> Rent or borrow a trailer and pick it up at the nearest terminal, where they will load it with a forklift for you. Most of the individual pieces are manageable after uncrating. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2012, at 7:25 PM, John Innis wrote: > Ok gang, I am way short on garage space and I am considering buying a > 4-post storage/service lift to ease the congestion. My biggest concern is > how to deal with getting the lift shipped to the house. Most of the lifts > I have looked at state that they are too large/heavy for a liftgate. To > complicate matters there is no way to get a semi-truck to the house. I > know a medium sized straight truck can make the turn around, but that is > about as big as I can accommodate. Anyone have any experience with this? > Options? > > ================================= > = Never offend people with style when you = > = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = > ================================= > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gpd4 at juno.com > > ____________________________________________________________ 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33 The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f67c3e75a47f2c8da7est01duc From eric at megageek.com Mon Mar 19 18:39:38 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:39:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where are you located? Here is why... You could have the lift delivered to a local freight center, then you can pick it up there with a rental truck (or buddy's trailer.) Or, you can deliver it directly to the buddy's house and they can load it from their truck right on to the trailer. (if you are near Jersey, I'll do it for gas money) When I had mine delivered, the truck pulled into the driveway. I used a chain to pick it up from the bed of the truck with a backhoe, and the truck drove out from under it. It was super easy and fast. Just an idea. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson John Innis Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 03/19/2012 19:32 To shop-talk List cc Subject [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift Ok gang, I am way short on garage space and I am considering buying a 4-post storage/service lift to ease the congestion. My biggest concern is how to deal with getting the lift shipped to the house. Most of the lifts I have looked at state that they are too large/heavy for a liftgate. To complicate matters there is no way to get a semi-truck to the house. I know a medium sized straight truck can make the turn around, but that is about as big as I can accommodate. Anyone have any experience with this? Options? ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Mar 19 18:56:55 2012 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:56:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7143B5A6B97143499EF17111C3FE0CDA@EricJRussellPC> You will kick yourself for not buying the lift sooner. I had a friend with a roll-back truck pick mine up from a local distributor. They loaded it with a fork lift then we skidded it off. If it hadn't been so close to dinner time it would have been even easier to take it off piece by piece (but not quicker). A friend picked up his from a local freight dock with a car trailer. Then a bunch of us helped unload & erect it. Took about 3/4 day for 6 guys - none of whom had done one before. If you don't have a friend with a roll-back truck or a car trailer consider a rental truck to pick it up from a freight dock. They should be able to load it. Then take it out piece by piece. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > Question about logistics shipping a four post lift From tvacc at lotusowners.com Mon Mar 19 19:12:05 2012 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:12:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01cd0636$7742f590$65c8e0b0$@lotusowners.com> I had my guy meet me at a large parking lot. We took it off the truck and put it on my flatbed trailer. Then drove it home. Took a few guys to lift the pieces but it worked fine. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Innis Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:26 PM To: shop-talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift Ok gang, I am way short on garage space and I am considering buying a 4-post storage/service lift to ease the congestion. My biggest concern is how to deal with getting the lift shipped to the house. Most of the lifts I have looked at state that they are too large/heavy for a liftgate. To complicate matters there is no way to get a semi-truck to the house. I know a medium sized straight truck can make the turn around, but that is about as big as I can accommodate. Anyone have any experience with this? Options? ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Mon Mar 19 20:39:10 2012 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:39:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <4F679305.9000803@xxiii.com> References: <20120318195754.9GYAQ.128731.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> <4F679305.9000803@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4F67EDCE.8090401@tx.rr.com> Finite element software? In college I was taught how to do those calculations by hand. > > He "boxed in" the 6 or 8 trusses over the stall with plywood, and at > the top of each, cut a 2" radius semi-circle. Then put up a 4" OD > steel pipe spanning all of them. But he staggered the depth, so with > no load the pipe was sitting on the outer most plates. At the > calculated flex of the pipe under full load (1100 lbs??) it would > deflect and be roughly in contact with all the plates, hopefully > distributing the load fairly evenly across all the trusses. > > It was "seat of the pants" engineering, and I don't think anyone had > FEA software then, but it seemed sound. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Mar 19 22:06:03 2012 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:06:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <4F67EDCE.8090401@tx.rr.com> References: <20120318195754.9GYAQ.128731.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> <4F679305.9000803@xxiii.com> <4F67EDCE.8090401@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4F68022B.3030402@xxiii.com> HuhHuh, yeah... it was 1972 and I was 6, and he was a non-degreed tool & die maker / motorhead. I did learn how to use a slide-rule at one point. But modern stuff will let you optimize the **** out of designs. OTOH, I'm probably more impressed with the stuff pulled off without high tech tools (eg: SR-71, Hoover Dam, Nukes) On 3/19/2012 10:39 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > Finite element software? In college I was taught how to do those > calculations by hand. > >> He "boxed in" the 6 or 8 trusses over the stall with plywood, and at >> the top of each, cut a 2" radius semi-circle. Then put up a 4" OD >> steel pipe spanning all of them. But he staggered the depth, so with >> no load the pipe was sitting on the outer most plates. At the >> calculated flex of the pipe under full load (1100 lbs??) it would >> deflect and be roughly in contact with all the plates, hopefully >> distributing the load fairly evenly across all the trusses. >> >> It was "seat of the pants" engineering, and I don't think anyone had >> FEA software then, but it seemed sound. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 22:23:10 2012 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 23:23:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: <7143B5A6B97143499EF17111C3FE0CDA@EricJRussellPC> References: <7143B5A6B97143499EF17111C3FE0CDA@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2012, at 7:56 PM, "Eric J Russell" wrote: > You will kick yourself for not buying the lift sooner. > > I had a friend with a roll-back truck pick mine up from a local distributor. Depending on where you are, relative to thr depot, hiring a tow truck to do it might be cheap enough to be worth the avoidance of hassle. From jem at milleredp.com Mon Mar 19 23:42:32 2012 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 22:42:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6818C8.5020705@milleredp.com> > When I had mine delivered, the truck pulled into the driveway. I used a > chain to pick it up from the bed of the truck with a backhoe, and the > truck drove out from under it. It was super easy and fast. Mine's a Bend-Pak HD-9ST and it was just under 2000lb crated, something like 2x3x17ft. I picked up mine at the freight dock, they put it on a flatbed trailer for me. It was bolted up to steel frames at either end that allowed - indeed, required - it to be forklifted from the end (given a suitably large forklift...) Walked it off the trailer with a floor jack and my engine hoist. Had a little help uncrating: http://www.milleredp.com/~jem/image/misc/DSCN4828.JPG John. From jdinnis at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 07:03:04 2012 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:03:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: <4F6818C8.5020705@milleredp.com> References: <4F6818C8.5020705@milleredp.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the advice everyone. I am near Cedar Rapids, Iowa, but I do have a 16' flatbed car trailer. I was not aware of the option to pick up at the freight terminal. That sounds like the way to go for me. I will have to call around and figure out which shipping companies are nearby. -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Mar 20 08:58:12 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:58:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: <4F6818C8.5020705@milleredp.com> Message-ID: If the lift vendors were able to arrange guaranteed no-hassle, no-surprise delivery to my door, I would have bought a lift by now... Doug On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:03 AM, John Innis wrote: > Thanks for the advice everyone. I am near Cedar Rapids, Iowa, but I do > have a 16' flatbed car trailer. I was not aware of the option to pick up > at the freight terminal. That sounds like the way to go for me. I will > have to call around and figure out which shipping companies are nearby. > -- From parkanzky at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 09:03:50 2012 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:03:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: <4F6818C8.5020705@milleredp.com> Message-ID: It's really not that hard. I had the lift delivered to a freight depot in town. It was much cheaper and they were willing to sit on it for a few days until it was convenient for me to get there. I rented a Penske truck with a lift gate, bumped their dock and they loaded it up with a forklift. Then we drove it home and two friends and I uncrated it in the truck and assembled it in a few hours. When you finally get one, you'll wonder why you waited so long. Best ~$2k I've spent on my garage by far. -Paul P. On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > If the lift vendors were able to arrange guaranteed no-hassle, no-surprise > delivery to my door, > I would have bought a lift by now... > > Doug > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:03 AM, John Innis wrote: > > > Thanks for the advice everyone. I am near Cedar Rapids, Iowa, but I do > > have a 16' flatbed car trailer. I was not aware of the option to pick up > > at the freight terminal. That sounds like the way to go for me. I will > > have to call around and figure out which shipping companies are nearby. > > -- From lspector at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 09:10:30 2012 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:10:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: <4F6818C8.5020705@milleredp.com> Message-ID: My almost "no-hassle" solution was to find a local installer and have the lift delivered to them. They took care of delivering it to my house via flatbed towtruck, and assembled it for me. I say almost no-hassle because this particular installer wasn't all that bright when it came to actual assembly. I wound up correcting them repeatedly, and provided most of the tools... -Larry On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > If the lift vendors were able to arrange guaranteed no-hassle, no-surprise > delivery to my door, > I would have bought a lift by now... > > Doug From elans4 at cox.net Tue Mar 20 09:11:05 2012 From: elans4 at cox.net (Mullen) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:11:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <4F67EDCE.8090401@tx.rr.com> References: <20120318195754.9GYAQ.128731.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> <4F679305.9000803@xxiii.com> <4F67EDCE.8090401@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <006901cd06ab$abe77760$03b66620$@net> BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > > Finite element software? In college I was taught > how to do those calculations by hand. By hand? In college (Aerospace Engineering in the early '70s) I wrote Finite Element software to analyze trusses as my senior project. Still have the box of computer cards somewhere (when was the last time you saw a card reader?). First job out of college was writing Finite Element software to analyze nuclear reactors for Trident submarines. Now that is a scary thought... Oh yea, I still have a slide rule (and mostly remember how to use it)... Tim Mullen From elans4 at cox.net Tue Mar 20 09:16:21 2012 From: elans4 at cox.net (Mullen) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:16:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <4F68022B.3030402@xxiii.com> References: <20120318195754.9GYAQ.128731.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> <4F679305.9000803@xxiii.com> <4F67EDCE.8090401@tx.rr.com> <4F68022B.3030402@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <007301cd06ac$68e5bac0$3ab13040$@net> Oh yea, I was originally going to mention the possibility of an "A - Frame" to hold thing up. You could buy one like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-telescoping-gantry-crane-41188.html from harbor freight (they put it on sale often). Or you could just make you own out of some 4x4 posts and either a nice 4x4 post across the top or better yet, a steel I-beam. Then you wouldn't have to worry about the roof... Tim Mullen From ronnie.day at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 09:31:07 2012 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:31:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: <4F6818C8.5020705@milleredp.com> Message-ID: Adding an additional question to this thread, do you need to wait for some time after pouring a slab to drill into it and install things like a lift? I've heard 6 months. We'll be building a shop sometime this year and I definitely want a two post lift. Ron On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Larry Spector wrote: > My almost "no-hassle" solution was to find a local installer and have the > lift delivered to them. They took care of delivering it to my house via > flatbed towtruck, and assembled it for me. I say almost no-hassle because > this particular installer wasn't all that bright when it came to actual > assembly. I wound up correcting them repeatedly, and provided most of the > tools... > > -Larry > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > > > If the lift vendors were able to arrange guaranteed no-hassle, > no-surprise > > delivery to my door, > > I would have bought a lift by now... > > > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com From tputland at charter.net Tue Mar 20 09:33:26 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists Message-ID: <6836c8c0.474b90.13630bdcc54.Webtop.45@charter.net> While an interesting option, this would not work for what I have in mind. I need to be able to get the body up, off the floor and out of the way so no floor space is lost. other tim On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Mullen wrote: > Oh yea, I was originally going to mention the possibility of an "A - > Frame" > to hold thing up. You could buy one like this: > http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-telescoping-gantry-crane-41188.html > from harbor freight (they put it on sale often). > > Or you could just make you own out of some 4x4 posts and either a nice > 4x4 > post across the top or better yet, a steel I-beam. Then you wouldn't > have > to worry about the roof... > > Tim Mullen From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net Tue Mar 20 09:48:12 2012 From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:48:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <504702460.223276.1332258422084.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <839868833.223318.1332258492404.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> The on-going thread about the logistics of getting delivery of a 4 post lift made me wonder if anyone has any experience with a single-post parking lift line the one Pace Tools offers ( http://www.pacetools.com/Products/PSC-6K ). The Admiral has given me permission for a pair of lifts in the garage. I'm a little concerned about fitting both of them, and this seems like a possible alternative to a 4-post lift used just for parking and not for service. Has anyone had any experience with a single-post lift like this? Anyone had any experience with Pace, good or bad? Tom FitzGibbon Scotch Plains, NJ '67 Spitfire Mk II '73 Mustang Convertible (project car) '99 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Tue Mar 20 10:46:17 2012 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:46:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <839868833.223318.1332258492404.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20120320164617.C640X.139007.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> I've never seen one. From one standpoint it is a good idea and would minimize the amount of space lost. It might be OK for car storage but not so good for working on cars because it blocks a lot of access from underneath. I think just for storage a 4-post might be a better solution. For working on the car I think a 2-post is better, but either of these require more space beside the vehicle on both sides. The single post could work with the car positioned very close to the wall opposite of the post. But the single post, even more so than a double post, is very critical of your floor slab construction and of how it is bolted to the floor. > The on-going thread about the logistics of getting delivery of a 4 post lift made me wonder if anyone has any experience with a single-post parking lift line the one Pace Tools offers ( http://www.pacetools.com/Products/PSC-6K ). The Admiral has given me permission for a pair of lifts in the garage. I'm a little concerned about fitting both of them, and this seems like a possible alternative to a 4-post lift used just for parking and not for service. Has anyone had any experience with a single-post lift like this? Anyone had any experience with Pace, good or bad? From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 11:38:38 2012 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:38:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <20120320164617.C640X.139007.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> References: <20120320164617.C640X.139007.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> Message-ID: <222E0733-55FE-4347-B100-C3C3452321D6@gmail.com> On Mar 20, 2012, at 11:46 AM, wrote: > I've never seen one. From one standpoint it is a good idea and would minimize the amount of space lost. It might be OK for car storage but not so good for working on cars because it blocks a lot of access from underneath. I think just for storage a 4-post might be a better solution. For working on the car I think a 2-post is better, but either of these require more space beside the vehicle on both sides. For working on cars an in ground two post is far far superior to one with pillars. Requires less space, nothing to hit doors on, no pillars to get in way When not using the lift. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Mar 20 14:45:24 2012 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:45:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <839868833.223318.1332258492404.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <839868833.223318.1332258492404.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1AD7E1112B1842D5A05754389DD45A2A@EricJRussellPC> No experience with a single post lift. I'd want to know the answer to a couple of questions. 1) Will it work/install on a standard/residential garage concrete floor? Four post lifts do not need anything special - they do not even need to be bolted down. A two post lift needs an extra depth/stronger floor and must be bolted to the floor. B) Can it be used (safely) to work under a car? Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom & Marge FitzGibbon" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:48 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift > The on-going thread about the logistics of getting delivery of a 4 post > lift made me wonder if anyone has any experience with a single-post > parking lift line the one Pace Tools offers ( > http://www.pacetools.com/Products/PSC-6K ). From eric at megageek.com Tue Mar 20 16:58:09 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:58:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sure they can, but are you willing to pay for it? Think about how much the shipping price would have to be to ensure that they could deliver it to every house in the US? Around here, there are houses that could NEVER get a lift installed with their driveways. I can say that for any hassle in the initial delivery and set up, the lift is a dream in any shop! I used to keep track of how much money I saved with mine, but I stopped after it paid for itself before the first year. Lifts make doing the right RIGHT, SAFE, and FAST. There is no substitute. In fact, I'm thinking about replacing mine with a bigger unit so I can do emergency vehicles (for the rescue dive unit I belong to.) Anyone want to buy a used one in great shape! Maybe I'll throw in delivery and installation for free! 8>) Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Doug Braun Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 03/20/2012 10:58 To Shop-Talk cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift If the lift vendors were able to arrange guaranteed no-hassle, no-surprise delivery to my door, I would have bought a lift by now... Doug On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:03 AM, John Innis wrote: > Thanks for the advice everyone. I am near Cedar Rapids, Iowa, but I do > have a 16' flatbed car trailer. I was not aware of the option to pick up > at the freight terminal. That sounds like the way to go for me. I will > have to call around and figure out which shipping companies are nearby. > -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From eric at megageek.com Tue Mar 20 17:00:54 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:00:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists In-Reply-To: <007301cd06ac$68e5bac0$3ab13040$@net> Message-ID: I actually have this one (and a trolley and 1 ton electric hoist.) I was thinking about selling it. I don't need it with a car lift and fork lift. Let me know if you want to go that route. Mine is basically brand new and has never been outside. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "Mullen" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 03/20/2012 11:16 Please respond to elans4 at cox.net To cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] reinforcing roof joists Oh yea, I was originally going to mention the possibility of an "A - Frame" to hold thing up. You could buy one like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-telescoping-gantry-crane-41188.html from harbor freight (they put it on sale often). Or you could just make you own out of some 4x4 posts and either a nice 4x4 post across the top or better yet, a steel I-beam. Then you wouldn't have to worry about the roof... Tim Mullen _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From eric at megageek.com Tue Mar 20 17:04:23 2012 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:04:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <839868833.223318.1332258492404.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I don't see the advantage. For the price, you can get a really good, two post lift that can lift twice the weight, and you can work on the car with it there. (Any maybe have money left over.) Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Tom & Marge FitzGibbon Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 03/20/2012 11:45 To Shop-talk at autox.team.net cc Subject [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift The on-going thread about the logistics of getting delivery of a 4 post lift made me wonder if anyone has any experience with a single-post parking lift line the one Pace Tools offers ( http://www.pacetools.com/Products/PSC-6K ). The Admiral has given me permission for a pair of lifts in the garage. I'm a little concerned about fitting both of them, and this seems like a possible alternative to a 4-post lift used just for parking and not for service. Has anyone had any experience with a single-post lift like this? Anyone had any experience with Pace, good or bad? Tom FitzGibbon Scotch Plains, NJ '67 Spitfire Mk II '73 Mustang Convertible (project car) '99 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Mar 20 20:15:44 2012 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:15:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6CDBAD68E1AF4FEAB5F13FD5673A222C@EricJRussellPC> A two post lift is best for working under a car but not good for storing a car (leaving the suspension drooping). A four post lift is best for storing one above the other. A four post lift with a jacking tray is good for working on a car. I'm not sure I see the advantage of the single post 'storage' lift except for its smaller footprint. But if you are mainly interested in storing a car above another then the extra posts of the four post lift doesn't seem like a big negative and the added stability would seem like a big positive. Eric Russell Mebane, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift >I don't see the advantage. For the price, you can get a really good, two > post lift that can lift twice the weight, and you can work on the car with > it there. (Any maybe have money left over.) From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 08:05:23 2012 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:05:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about logistics shipping a four post lift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F69E023.9080101@gmail.com> Sure. You get it to my house, and we're golden. :-) Actually, there's a guy selling one kinda near me for $1500. Ben Pearson brand. I've been meaning to ask if anyone has experience with that brand. On 3/20/2012 6:58 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Anyone want to buy a used one in great shape! Maybe I'll throw in > delivery and installation for free! 8>) From phoenix722 at comcast.net Wed Mar 21 11:48:09 2012 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:48:09 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift References: <6CDBAD68E1AF4FEAB5F13FD5673A222C@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> Eric--Perhaps you and/or someone else could expand on supporting a car with it's suspension "drooping". This would be the same if it were up on jacks, right? I'm not advocating either/or, but interested. Mike =========== >A two post lift is best for working under a car but not good for storing a >car (leaving the suspension drooping). From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net Wed Mar 21 12:41:54 2012 From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:41:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> Message-ID: <1359021071.253321.1332355314708.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Mike, Hopefully Eric will provide a more technical and complete answer, but I have always been told that cars are intended to rest on their suspensions and long-term storage with the wheels unsupported is bad for the suspension. I'm not sure why it is bad, just that it is. I don't think it will cause harm if you support a car on jacks for a couple of days, or leave it on a 2-post lift for a couple of days, but you don;t want to do that long-term. That's a benefit of the 4-post lifts - you can use them for both storage and, with a rolling jack or jack on the appropriate pan (the name escapes me at the moment) that fits between the side rails, service. (The single post lift I'm looking at is useless for service, but has a nice small footprint for storage.) Whenever you store a car long-term with its tires not in contact with the ground (or lift) you want to support the suspension with jack stands. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sinclair" To: "Eric J Russell" Cc: "Shop Talk" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:48:09 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift Eric--Perhaps you and/or someone else could expand on supporting a car with it's suspension "drooping". This would be the same if it were up on jacks, right? I'm not advocating either/or, but interested. Mike =========== >A two post lift is best for working under a car but not good for storing a >car (leaving the suspension drooping). _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net From ejrussell at mebtel.net Wed Mar 21 13:14:13 2012 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:14:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> References: <6CDBAD68E1AF4FEAB5F13FD5673A222C@EricJRussellPC> <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> Message-ID: It is generally advised to not store a car with the suspension at full droop *for long periods of time* (I'd assume many months/years). Bushings & springs will take a set in the drooped position. A car on jack stands under the suspension is OK - that will take the weight off the tires but not leave the suspension hanging. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sinclair" To: "Eric J Russell" Cc: "Shop Talk" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift > Eric--Perhaps you and/or someone else could expand on supporting a car > with it's suspension "drooping". This would be the same if it were up on > jacks, right? I'm not advocating either/or, but interested. > > Mike > =========== > > >>A two post lift is best for working under a car but not good for storing a >>car (leaving the suspension drooping). From phoenix722 at comcast.net Wed Mar 21 13:41:09 2012 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 12:41:09 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Single Post Parking Lift Message-ID: <19FFB74231AF4BC48AE983CCCADD7248@Mike> Oops. Forgot to include the forum in my post. M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sinclair" To: "Eric J Russell" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift > Eric--Makes sense, but I wonder if letting the car sit "for long periods > of time" on the tires would not do the same thing as far as the bushings > and springs. But then the tires would suffer. Of course, the best > solution is to take it out on the road periodically, but that is not > always feasible (my current project is lacking brakes, so it is not > recommended for road use at the moment). I do know that if you do not > talk nice to a car in storage it will not start easily. > > Mike > ============= > >> It is generally advised to not store a car with the suspension at full >> droop *for long periods of time* (I'd assume many months/years). Bushings >> & springs will take a set in the drooped position. A car on jack stands >> under the suspension is OK - that will take the weight off the tires but >> not leave the suspension hanging. > >> >>> Eric--Perhaps you and/or someone else could expand on supporting a car >>> with it's suspension "drooping". This would be the same if it were up >>> on jacks, right? I'm not advocating either/or, but interested. >>> >>> Mike From elans4 at cox.net Wed Mar 21 15:20:04 2012 From: elans4 at cox.net (Mullen) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:20:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> References: <6CDBAD68E1AF4FEAB5F13FD5673A222C@EricJRussellPC> <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> Message-ID: <006b01cd07a8$622aba80$26802f80$@net> Mike Sinclair wrote: > > expand on supporting a car with its suspension "drooping". > This would be the same if it were up on jacks, right? Yes, it's the same, but not exactly. The suspension bushings consist of two metal tubes with "rubber" bonded in between. The outer tube is usually a press fit into the a-arm. The inner tube is slightly longer and when you tighten the suspension bolts, it clamps the "frame" onto the inner tube, thereby preventing it from rotating. The bushings don't allow any rotation of the tubes relative to their surface, the entire motion that is permitted is provided by the twisting and stretching of the rubber in the bushing. Leaving the rubber twisted for a couple of days isn't a problem. For a couple of months, it will cause degradation of the rubber in the bushing. As an example of the degradation, I had my Elan on jack stands for a couple of years. When I got around to replacing the bushings, six of the eight bushings on the front had the rubber completely separated from the tubing of the bushing (I had planned on replacing everything with new anyway). As an example of this that most people have experienced is a simple rubber band. I you've had a rubber band stretched around something for a long time, chances are if you stretch it more (as in taking it off), the rubber band will break. But the "new" one that you take out of the drawer to replace it (that probably came out of the same package) will still be springy and ready go for a long time. This is also why, when you tighten the suspension bolts, the car needs to be at ride height. If you assemble things and torque down the bolts and then put the car on the ground, the bushings will be twisted as the car settles on them. Two things will happen. One the bushings will fail rather rapidly. Two, the suspension will be "pre-loaded" - the bushings will be trying to "lift" the car, messing up the handling, and actually reducing the suspension movement. It is a pain to two to settle the car before you tighten things. Get it on the ground, and roll it back/forward a couple of feet (as the suspension moves up, the tires will distort as they try to move outward - rolling it eliminates the effect of the tire distortion. Then comes the hard part, trying to reach under there to get the torque wrench on the various bolts. But it is very necessary. Hope this explains things in an understandable way... Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From ejrussell at mebtel.net Wed Mar 21 15:32:44 2012 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:32:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift In-Reply-To: <006b01cd07a8$622aba80$26802f80$@net> References: <6CDBAD68E1AF4FEAB5F13FD5673A222C@EricJRussellPC> <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> <006b01cd07a8$622aba80$26802f80$@net> Message-ID: > Then comes the hard part, trying to reach under there to get the torque > wrench on > the various bolts. Which is where a four post lift makes it a lot less difficult. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From phoenix722 at comcast.net Wed Mar 21 16:26:15 2012 From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike Sinclair) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:26:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Single Post Parking Lift References: <6CDBAD68E1AF4FEAB5F13FD5673A222C@EricJRussellPC> <8527EB0BF1494114851002003E3FC01D@Mike> <006b01cd07a8$622aba80$26802f80$@net> Message-ID: <8946A8795641418BB6EF881AE12E5CC2@Mike> Tim--Thank you for a good explanation on "drooping". Makes sense (the rubber band analogy helped). Mike From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Wed Mar 21 22:52:00 2012 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 21:52:00 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. Message-ID: <6E15BA67892C4A5186148F8CD2A24CB5@delld520> <<< Ok gang, I am way short on garage space and I am considering buying a 4-post storage/service lift to ease the congestion. My biggest concern is how to deal with getting the lift shipped to the house. Most of the lifts I have looked at state that they are too large/heavy for a liftgate. To complicate matters there is no way to get a semi-truck to the house. I know a medium sized straight truck can make the turn around, but that is about as big as I can accommodate. Anyone have any experience with this? Options? >>> When I got mine delivered it was in a 24' truck, not a semi, with no liftgate (wouldn't have helped much anyway). I had a stack of pallets available and an anchor point (the hitch of a pickup). Tied the bundle to the hitch, stuck a stack of pallets behind the big truck and pulled it forward about half the length of the lift package. Put another stack of pallets at the tailgate and did it again. One more time just before the load came out and the lift ended up on top of the three pallet stacks. Easier than it sounds. Mark Miller From jem at milleredp.com Wed Mar 21 23:07:55 2012 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 22:07:55 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. In-Reply-To: <6E15BA67892C4A5186148F8CD2A24CB5@delld520> References: <6E15BA67892C4A5186148F8CD2A24CB5@delld520> Message-ID: <4F6AB3AB.10702@milleredp.com> > When I got mine delivered it was in a 24' truck, not a semi, with no > liftgate (wouldn't have helped much anyway). I had a stack of pallets > available and an anchor point (the hitch of a pickup). Tied the bundle to > the hitch, stuck a stack of pallets behind the big truck and pulled it > forward about half the length of the lift package. Put another stack of > pallets at the tailgate and did it again. One more time just before the > load came out and the lift ended up on top of the three pallet stacks. > Easier than it sounds. I brought mine home from the dock on a flatbed trailer. Hung the rear end from my engine hoist, used a floor jack on the trailer deck to lift the front. Scooted it back about 3ft that way, then supported the rear of the lift. Rolled the cherry picker under the side of the trailer to pick up the front of the lift and pulled the trailer out from under it. With a larger, beefier hoist you might just be able to pick up the whole thing in one go. John. From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Thu Mar 22 07:26:08 2012 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:26:08 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. In-Reply-To: <4F6AB3AB.10702@milleredp.com> References: <6E15BA67892C4A5186148F8CD2A24CB5@delld520> <4F6AB3AB.10702@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE0311517C@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> I used a similar technique to that described below, yet I substituted a wheel dolly (car roller) under the lift package to move it about. I had one dolly under each end of the lift package and was able to wheel it in to where I installed it. I also had access to a high-lift pallet jack that made assembly much easier. I could balance the long and heavy ramps on the pallet jack and lift them into place. With the pallet jack, wheel dollies and the cherry picker, I was able to move and install a four-post lift by myself. Gil Nashville ---------------------------------------- I brought mine home from the dock on a flatbed trailer. Hung the rear end from my engine hoist, used a floor jack on the trailer deck to lift the front. Scooted it back about 3ft that way, then supported the rear of the lift. Rolled the cherry picker under the side of the trailer to pick up the front of the lift and pulled the trailer out from under it. With a larger, beefier hoist you might just be able to pick up the whole thing in one go. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com From mbarre at juno.com Thu Mar 22 11:10:12 2012 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:10:12 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. Message-ID: <20120322.131012.11932.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> I did what Gil did.Funny how many of us end up doing crap like this alone yet don't end up injured (or at least don't admit it!) I was shopping lifts and considering how to work delivery when I happened to find one on Atlanta craigslist 1.5 hours away, so I struck out with my trailer and the seller & I loaded it without injury by utilizing his cherry picker, a couple of 2x8's and his jeep w/ winch. Emboldened by that success, I offloaded it myself and assembled it the next day. The seller still had it as delivered on the shipping frames. Apparently he never got around to installing it simply decided he no longer desired a 4 post lift. MattColumbus, GA ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Gil Fuqua To: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:26:08 +0000 I used a similar technique to that described below, yet I substituted a wheel dolly (car roller) under the lift package to move it about. I had one dolly under each end of the lift package and was able to wheel it in to where I installed it. I also had access to a high-lift pallet jack that made assembly much easier. I could balance the long and heavy ramps on the pallet jack and lift them into place. With the pallet jack, wheel dollies and the cherry picker, I was able to move and install a four-post lift by myself. Gil Nashville ---------------------------------------- I brought mine home from the dock on a flatbed trailer. Hung the rear end from my engine hoist, used a floor jack on the trailer deck to lift the front. Scooted it back about 3ft that way, then supported the rear of the lift. Rolled the cherry picker under the side of the trailer to pick up the front of the lift and pulled the trailer out from under it. With a larger, beefier hoist you might just be able to pick up the whole thing in one go. John. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 11:19:44 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:19:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. In-Reply-To: <20120322.131012.11932.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> References: <20120322.131012.11932.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Matt wrote: > Funny how many of us end up doing crap like this alone yet > don't end up injured (or at least don't admit it!) I tried to unload a 60-gallon compressor from my pickup truck with an engine hoist. I had to sling it around the middle because I couldn't reach any higher. I managed to find a spot about 1 inch below the center of gravity...thus, when it went over, it went slowly enough that I could get out from under it. More or less... If you're going to do that kind of stuff, be sure you have thoroughly pondered it before you hook up, and keep your toes clear! Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From tputland at charter.net Thu Mar 22 11:35:16 2012 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. Message-ID: <796fc38b.49d1bf.1363b7a0fab.Webtop.46@charter.net> " If you're going to do that kind of stuff, be sure you have thoroughly pondered it before you hook up, and keep your toes clear".... .....and make sure someone is home who can hear you scream if the worst happens. No, i have yet to have this need. But I am going to be hanging a car body this spring...... so you never know. tim On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Matt wrote: >> Funny how many of us end up doing crap like this alone yet >> don't end up injured (or at least don't admit it!) > > I tried to unload a 60-gallon compressor from my pickup truck with an > engine hoist. I had to sling it around the middle because I couldn't > reach any higher. I managed to find a spot about 1 inch below the > center of gravity...thus, when it went over, it went slowly enough > that I could get out from under it. More or less... > > If you're going to do that kind of stuff, be sure you have thoroughly > pondered it before you hook up, and keep your toes clear! > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From lists at dinospider.com Thu Mar 22 11:47:11 2012 From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:47:11 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. In-Reply-To: <796fc38b.49d1bf.1363b7a0fab.Webtop.46@charter.net> References: <796fc38b.49d1bf.1363b7a0fab.Webtop.46@charter.net> Message-ID: <4F6B659F.8080803@dinospider.com> In your garage no one can hear you scream :) On 03/22/2012 10:35 AM, Tim wrote: > " If you're going to do that kind of stuff, be sure you have > thoroughly pondered it before you hook up, and keep your toes clear".... > > .....and make sure someone is home who can hear you scream if the > worst happens. No, i have yet to have this need. But I am going to be > hanging a car body this spring...... so you never know. > > tim > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Matt wrote: >>> Funny how many of us end up doing crap like this alone yet >>> don't end up injured (or at least don't admit it!) >> >> I tried to unload a 60-gallon compressor from my pickup truck with an >> engine hoist. I had to sling it around the middle because I couldn't >> reach any higher. I managed to find a spot about 1 inch below the >> center of gravity...thus, when it went over, it went slowly enough >> that I could get out from under it. More or less... >> >> If you're going to do that kind of stuff, be sure you have thoroughly >> pondered it before you hook up, and keep your toes clear! >> >> Jeff Scarbrough >> Corrosion Acres, Ga. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists at dinospider.com From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Thu Mar 22 12:51:41 2012 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:51:41 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. In-Reply-To: <4F6B659F.8080803@dinospider.com> References: <796fc38b.49d1bf.1363b7a0fab.Webtop.46@charter.net> <4F6B659F.8080803@dinospider.com> Message-ID: <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE03115ABE@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> They usually hear me scream when I measure once, and cut twice. Oh well.......... -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mike Rambour Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:47 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] getting a lift out of a truck. In your garage no one can hear you scream :) On 03/22/2012 10:35 AM, Tim wrote: > " If you're going to do that kind of stuff, be sure you have > thoroughly pondered it before you hook up, and keep your toes clear".... > > .....and make sure someone is home who can hear you scream if the > worst happens. No, i have yet to have this need. But I am going to be > hanging a car body this spring...... so you never know. > > tim > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Matt wrote: >>> Funny how many of us end up doing crap like this alone yet >>> don't end up injured (or at least don't admit it!) >> >> I tried to unload a 60-gallon compressor from my pickup truck with an >> engine hoist. I had to sling it around the middle because I couldn't >> reach any higher. I managed to find a spot about 1 inch below the >> center of gravity...thus, when it went over, it went slowly enough >> that I could get out from under it. More or less... >> >> If you're going to do that kind of stuff, be sure you have thoroughly >> pondered it before you hook up, and keep your toes clear! >> >> Jeff Scarbrough >> Corrosion Acres, Ga. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists at dinospider.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com From jniolon at att.net Fri Mar 23 11:41:53 2012 From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 12:41:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] video gurus listen up Message-ID: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> Ibm planning on making a recording of an engine start up... my video recorder is an older one with 8 mm cassettes. Is there a way to convert 8mm cassette to a digital image that can be sent by email or shown on computer ??? can I hook up the recorder to a DVD recorder and copy directly from tape to DVD ??? electronical gurus ???? little help here thanks John From jdinnis at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 12:00:22 2012 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:00:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] video gurus listen up In-Reply-To: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> References: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> Message-ID: Yep, this can be done, there are several ways. Most video cameras have a video out connector that you could connect to a DVD recorder or to a video capture card on a PC. There are also many services that will do this for you for a fee. If you already have the stuff, it is pretty easy to do. If not, it might be cheaper to go buy a digital camera with video capability. I just bought a small "action" video camera that records directly onto a SD card for $50. There also several on the market that have a direct USB connect to a PC. Something like this might be cheaper than paying someone to transfer the tape for you: http://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-DVR-510-Digital-Recorder-Vision/dp/B002WP7YAA/ref=sr_1_9?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1332525540&sr=1-9 On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 12:41 PM, John Niolon wrote: > Ib m planning on making a recording of an engine start up... my video > recorder is an older one with 8 mm cassettes. Is there a way to convert > 8mm > cassette to a digital image that can be sent by email or shown on computer > ??? > can I hook up the recorder to a DVD recorder and copy directly from tape to > DVD ??? > > electronical gurus ???? little help here > > thanks > John > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From pat at hornesystemstx.com Fri Mar 23 12:09:53 2012 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:09:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] video gurus listen up In-Reply-To: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> References: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> Message-ID: <4F6CBC71.5040707@hornesystemstx.com> Should work. If your computer has a video input you can hook your camera directly to it, or run the video output to the video input of the DVD recorder. Most video recorders have the video coming out of the video out jack when you record. Running the video to tape, then to DVD will decrease the quality of the recording, but it may be good enough for what you are doing. Peace, Pat Thusly spake John Niolon, On 3/23/2012 12:41 PM: > Ibm planning on making a recording of an engine start up... my video > recorder is an older one with 8 mm cassettes. Is there a way to convert 8mm > cassette to a digital image that can be sent by email or shown on computer ??? > can I hook up the recorder to a DVD recorder and copy directly from tape to > DVD ??? > > electronical gurus ???? little help here > > thanks > John > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Mar 23 12:30:37 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:30:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] video gurus listen up In-Reply-To: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> References: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> Message-ID: Do you know someone with an iPhone or other smartphone? Just use that, and you not have a problem transferring the video. Doug From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Mar 23 14:47:02 2012 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:47:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] video gurus listen up In-Reply-To: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> References: <045ED0ED27FC4535AA8617E1F6CDF2A2@OwnerHP> Message-ID: <034a01cd0936$1a470b80$4ed52280$@rr.com> > Ib m planning on making a recording of an engine start up... my video > recorder is an older one with 8 mm cassettes. Is there a way to > convert 8mm > cassette to a digital image that can be sent by email or shown on > computer ??? Last time I needed to do that, I found a USB video capture device for under $20. Worked pretty good, just followed the installation instructions. It came with a program that would record video from the device to a computer file in a variety of formats; which could then be edited (it came with a simple editor, there are much more sophisticated ones available) and viewed on the computer, or transferred to YouTube, video DVD, etc. The device itself wasn't much bigger than my thumb, with a USB cable sticking out one end and 3 or 4 audio/video cables sticking out the other end. It didn't do RF (channel 3) but my camera came with a little plug-in module that had audio & video out on RCA jacks. This isn't the same brand, but is very similar to what I had: http://goo.gl/gKtWV Now if I could just come up with a player to play those PAL VHS tapes. -- Randall From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sun Mar 25 21:09:58 2012 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:09:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Banjo Fitting for AC Fuel Pump Message-ID: I need to slightly re-route the fuel line on my Alpine so that it comes in at 90 degrees from the stock location. I know I have a banjo fitting somewhere around here, but for the life of me I cannot find it. Does anyone know where I can get one that will fit the AC pump? It requires a 1/2" UNF (20 pitch) thread at the fuel pump. The fuel line is 3/16 ID, 5/16 OD and currently attached with a compression fitting, but I can be flexible at that end. Thanks. From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Mar 30 20:22:17 2012 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 22:22:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? Message-ID: My garage is 24 x 24 clear span, with sagging 2x6s tieing the rafters together. I don't think they'll hold sheetrock unless I get 1/4", at which point I'm thinking there's something better, maybe already white so I don't have to paint it? Luan-based paneling looks to be roughly $22/sheet, and my searches aren't coming up with anything else. thanks, From bk13 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 30 21:02:05 2012 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:02:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7673AD.6050005@earthlink.net> Jim - If you want cheap, how about a 11 ft. 4" x 18 ft. 6" Reflective Heavy Duty Silver Tarp from Harbor Freight. Item #47676 for $21.99 each. For a little more, 15 ft. 2'' x 19 ft. 6'' Reflective Heavy Duty Silver Tarp, Item #47677 for $29.99. A pair should cover a good chunk of the garage. For a sheet product that is cheap, look at 1/8 in. 4 ft. x 8 Ft. Tempered Hardboard. Home Depot has it at $6.98 a sheet. Not sure how much it will sag, but you are not likely to find much cheaper. Brian On 3/30/2012 7:22 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > My garage is 24 x 24 clear span, with sagging 2x6s tieing the rafters > together. I don't think they'll hold sheetrock unless I get 1/4", at which > point I'm thinking there's something better, maybe already white so I don't > have to paint it? Luan-based paneling looks to be roughly $22/sheet, and my > searches aren't coming up with anything else. > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From fishplate at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 21:08:26 2012 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:08:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:22 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > Luan-based paneling looks to be roughly $22/sheet, and my > searches aren't coming up with anything else. What about 1/4" OSB? Ought to be about $6 a sheet. Spray a coat of white latex with your $12 Harbor Freight spray gun before you hang it...you're still less than half the price of Luan. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Mar 30 21:24:37 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:24:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? In-Reply-To: <4F7673AD.6050005@earthlink.net> References: <4F7673AD.6050005@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Somebody must sell white tarp material, which would be a lot brighter than the solver color. Doug On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Jim - If you want cheap, how about a 11 ft. 4" x 18 ft. 6" Reflective > Heavy Duty Silver Tarp from Harbor Freight. Item #47676 for $21.99 each. > For a little more, 15 ft. 2'' x 19 ft. 6'' Reflective Heavy Duty Silver > Tarp, Item #47677 for $29.99. A pair should cover a good chunk of the > garage. From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Mar 30 21:54:53 2012 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:54:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F76800D.7060501@comcast.net> On 3/30/2012 10:22 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > My garage is 24 x 24 clear span, with sagging 2x6s tieing the rafters > together. I don't think they'll hold sheetrock unless I get 1/4", at which > point I'm thinking there's something better, maybe already white so I don't > have to paint it? Luan-based paneling looks to be roughly $22/sheet, and my > searches aren't coming up with anything else. > > thanks, They make lightweight sheetrock. In fact most is these days because it is cheaper to make. The stuff is light, 3/8 is probably comparable in weight to 1/4 wood based stock. Second alternative is 1/4" luan at $10 for a 4/8 sheet. Paint with cheap white paint before hanging. Party pooper part to follow. Code is for sheet rock in a garage to be 1/2". Also, if you think the rafters won't hold sheetrock you might consider fixing that before you worry about lighting. Peter T. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From robolane at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 30 22:18:47 2012 From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (Robert Lane) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 04:18:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1809138293.9000856.1333167527279.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed81.prod> LinkedIn ------------ I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Robert Robert Lane -- Wichita, Kansas Area Confirm that you know Robert Lane: https://www.linkedin.com/e/-hruccy-h0g5ivl8-1v/isd/6502551224/w3BZxfMb/?hs=false&tok=1YP_4ZEEX22Bc1 -- You are receiving Invitation to Connect emails. Click to unsubscribe: http://www.linkedin.com/e/-hruccy-h0g5ivl8-1v/ub55bnhMnkNFb1sAOBSJp2hKnHbvLe43AbVD0d/goo/shop-talk%40autox%2Eteam%2Enet/20061/I2255472604_1/?hs=false&tok=3X2I6EHjH22Bc1 (c) 2012 LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sat Mar 31 05:15:09 2012 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 06:15:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F76E73D.6030909@hornesystemstx.com> When I built my shop (30'x40') I used corrugated steel sheets, 2'x12'. Home Depot sells really thin stuff for about $10/sheet. I wouldn't want to try walking on it, it is so thin, but for the ceiling it worked out fine. 1/4" drywall and Luan will sag with time, but my ceiling has been up for better than 10 years and doing fine. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 3/30/2012 9:22 PM: > My garage is 24 x 24 clear span, with sagging 2x6s tieing the rafters > together. I don't think they'll hold sheetrock unless I get 1/4", at which > point I'm thinking there's something better, maybe already white so I don't > have to paint it? Luan-based paneling looks to be roughly $22/sheet, and my > searches aren't coming up with anything else. > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sat Mar 31 08:46:24 2012 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:46:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? In-Reply-To: <4F76800D.7060501@comcast.net> References: <4F76800D.7060501@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > > > Also, if you think the rafters won't hold sheetrock you might consider fixing that before you worry about lighting. They'll probably hold it, just look very pregnant doing so. I welcome your suggestions on clear spanning 24' with no trusses. If it costs more than $1000 I'm much more inclined to rip off the roof and build a crash pad up there, at which point I'm back to square one as I don't have the $x,000 for a crash pad. From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Mar 31 08:52:40 2012 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:52:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lightweight reflective ceiling covering? In-Reply-To: References: <4F76800D.7060501@comcast.net> Message-ID: How about a couple of 2x4s running vertically from each 2x6 ceiling beam up to the (presumably stronger) roof rafters? Doug On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > > I welcome your suggestions on clear spanning 24' with no trusses. If it > costs > more than $1000 I'm much more inclined to rip off the roof and build a > crash > pad up there, at which point I'm back to square one as I don't have the > $x,000 > for a crash pad. > ________________________________