From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Jun  1 20:23:53 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:23:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
Message-ID: <COL115-W31E79441B554CCF0967A3DCC090@phx.gbl>

About 10 years ago I did some drywall repair for a friend of mine, fixing a
spot where the original tape had come away from the wall, exposing the joint
between the two sheets.  I wanted to use fresh tape and conventional compound,
but he had a product called "ATI Tapeless Joint Compound" that he had
purchased at Home Depot for the job and wanted me to try.  I was skeptical but
gave it a try.  10 years later the area still looks perfect.  I now need to
repair an area around a light switch at my house and would love to use a
similar product to avoid the tape buildup under one side of the switch plate.
I Googled the company (Applied Textures Inc) and the product but all I can
find are old forum postings.  The company's website is no longer functional,
so I assume they are out of business.  Has anyone heard of a similar product?
I looked at Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware, but none of them carried
anything similar.

Thanks.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sat Jun  2 09:28:20 2012
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (bk13)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 08:28:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
Message-ID: <454575.1338650900868.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Jim - I searched "tapeless joint compound" and found 
http://www.edp-inc.net/Products.php

It sounds like the same stuff, but they appear to just sell by the pallet via the web site.  Click the contact page and they have a selection of retail locations.

Their product is a setting type joint compound.  You can but setting type compounds at the local home centers and I use them for most of my patches since they are stronger and dry faster than regular drywall joint compound.  For the average homeowner, the 45 or 90 minute set is probably good.  The faster stuff is likely to set before you get it right, so I would not recommend it for general use.

Brian - getting ready to contract out a 21 sheet ceiling job


-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
>Sent: Jun 1, 2012 7:23 PM
>To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
>
>About 10 years ago I did some drywall repair for a friend of mine, fixing a
>spot where the original tape had come away from the wall, exposing the joint
>between the two sheets.  I wanted to use fresh tape and conventional compound,
>but he had a product called "ATI Tapeless Joint Compound" that he had
>purchased at Home Depot for the job and wanted me to try.  I was skeptical but
>gave it a try.  10 years later the area still looks perfect.  I now need to
>repair an area around a light switch at my house and would love to use a
>similar product to avoid the tape buildup under one side of the switch plate.
>I Googled the company (Applied Textures Inc) and the product but all I can
>find are old forum postings.  The company's website is no longer functional,
>so I assume they are out of business.  Has anyone heard of a similar product?
>I looked at Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware, but none of them carried
>anything similar.
>
>Thanks.
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Sat Jun  2 11:08:42 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:08:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W31E79441B554CCF0967A3DCC090@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W31E79441B554CCF0967A3DCC090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FCA489A.5040207@comcast.net>

On 6/1/2012 10:23 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> About 10 years ago I did some drywall repair for a friend of mine, fixing a
> spot where the original tape had come away from the wall, exposing the joint
> between the two sheets.  I wanted to use fresh tape and conventional compound,
> but he had a product called "ATI Tapeless Joint Compound" that he had
> purchased at Home Depot for the job and wanted me to try.  I was skeptical but
> gave it a try.  10 years later the area still looks perfect.  I now need to
> repair an area around a light switch at my house and would love to use a
> similar product to avoid the tape buildup under one side of the switch plate.
> I Googled the company (Applied Textures Inc) and the product but all I can
> find are old forum postings.  The company's website is no longer functional,
> so I assume they are out of business.  Has anyone heard of a similar product?
> I looked at Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware, but none of them carried
> anything similar.
>
> Thanks.
I've had great success using "liquid tape".  What I have done is cut a 
rectangular patch.  Used the patch to clean up the hole. Easier to fit 
the hole to the patch rather than the reverse.  Add blocking around the 
hole inside the wall using scrap pieces of wood.  Just hold the wood in 
place and drive screws through the original wall board.  Then attach the 
patch with wood screws.  Next I fill the crack with dry wall compound.  
Once dry, I sand the seam making sure to expose the paper skin on both 
the patch and the original wall board.  This leaves a band, about an 
inch wide, that is paper and a small amount of filler compound.  I then 
paint the band with "liquid tape" otherwise known as wood glue.  The 
glue soaks into the exposed paper and the compound crack fill and forms 
a really, really strong seamless skin.  After the glue is dried I do a 
quick sanding to remove any high spot (area with too much glue was 
applied).  Apply a quick coat of compound to level things out, sand, paint.

Wood glue is stronger than wood or paper.  I find this holds up better 
than a taped patch and is dead flat.   I moved a light fixture and used 
this technique to path the wall.  Being adjacent to the light I can't 
see the patch.  I challenged my wife to find the patch and she 
couldn't.  Even holding a flash light at a sever angle which shows every 
taped seam and nail, the patch is invisible.

Peter T.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Jun  2 11:54:21 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 11:54:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] State of the art wiring
Message-ID: <4FCA534D.1010108@bradakis.com>

Thought some of you electrically minded folks might enjoy this picture:

http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=131


mjb, master electrician.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Jun  2 11:55:59 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 13:55:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] State of the art wiring
In-Reply-To: <4FCA534D.1010108@bradakis.com>
References: <4FCA534D.1010108@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9VhBLyM=CRRebY=wT+xLoiKnD=G+BrW_Cq0uiUXXx0RoA@mail.gmail.com>

That's nothing!  Have a look at this:

http://i.usatoday.net/news/gallery/2011/111006_afghanistan/15n111006_afghanistan-pg-horizontal.JPG

Doug

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:

> Thought some of you electrically minded folks might enjoy this picture:
>
> http://www.team.net/forums/**viewtopic.php?f=4&t=131<http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=131>
>
>
> mjb, master electrician.

From jniolon at att.net  Sat Jun  2 12:22:22 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 13:22:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] vin number decoding - equipment list
Message-ID: <DC5CD8E16ABB45B18DB10986F8F2945F@john5043a2d406>

Somewhere in the past I found a website... and not an automotive type website
where you could enter the VIN of your car and it would list every detail about
it.... equipment, trim, engine particulars... I mean everything... it even
told you how many were produced with the option list you have... very
useful... but sadly, I lost the link..

anyone ever heard of this ???

thanks
John





I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Jun  2 12:38:24 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:38:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] State of the art wiring
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9VhBLyM=CRRebY=wT+xLoiKnD=G+BrW_Cq0uiUXXx0RoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FCA534D.1010108@bradakis.com>
	<CAOtbU9VhBLyM=CRRebY=wT+xLoiKnD=G+BrW_Cq0uiUXXx0RoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCA5DA0.2020003@bradakis.com>

Doug Braun wrote:
> That's nothing!  Have a look at this:
>
> http://i.usatoday.net/news/gallery/2011/111006_afghanistan/15n111006_afghanistan-pg-horizontal.JPG
>

Gee, wasn't someone on this very list over there doing, oddly enough,
communications work?

mjb.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Jun  2 13:10:28 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:10:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] State of the art wiring
In-Reply-To: <4FCA5DA0.2020003@bradakis.com>
References: <4FCA534D.1010108@bradakis.com>
	<CAOtbU9VhBLyM=CRRebY=wT+xLoiKnD=G+BrW_Cq0uiUXXx0RoA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FCA5DA0.2020003@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9VuyaRftjckRu3+ChcdmbjcX1CK=hjWPo76KsHM7zSqWA@mail.gmail.com>

The scary thing is: that's power wiring!

Doug

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:

> Doug Braun wrote:
>
>> That's nothing!  Have a look at this:
>>
>> http://i.usatoday.net/news/**gallery/2011/111006_**afghanistan/15n111006_
>> **afghanistan-pg-horizontal.JPG<http://i.usatoday.net/news/gallery/2011/111006_afghanistan/15n111006_afghanistan-pg-horizontal.JPG>
>>
>>
> Gee, wasn't someone on this very list over there doing, oddly enough,
> communications work?
>
> mjb.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/doug@**dougbraun.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com>

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 14:12:22 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 16:12:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] vin number decoding - equipment list
In-Reply-To: <DC5CD8E16ABB45B18DB10986F8F2945F@john5043a2d406>
References: <DC5CD8E16ABB45B18DB10986F8F2945F@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPSDygjDbPfptOfSWDcEAuK63W16S2c2ojM+yAOfFBXwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 2:22 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
> anyone ever heard of this ???

I've seen enthusiast web sites that would do this for some
marques/years of particular autos.  Not a universal one, though.

You could try this one:  http://www.decodethis.com/Default.aspx

From jniolon at att.net  Sat Jun  2 14:27:37 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:27:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] vin number decoding - equipment list
References: <DC5CD8E16ABB45B18DB10986F8F2945F@john5043a2d406>
	<CAO8Q7CPSDygjDbPfptOfSWDcEAuK63W16S2c2ojM+yAOfFBXwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <711912D17EE44B86B3418289A5A5518C@john5043a2d406>

well... I found it finally...

http://www.compnine.com/vid.php

this gives you the  complete equipment list broken down by RPO codes...
run it on your car.... it's fun to see everything included...


thanks
John

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Scarbrough" <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] vin number decoding - equipment list


> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 2:22 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>> anyone ever heard of this ???
>
> I've seen enthusiast web sites that would do this for some
> marques/years of particular autos.  Not a universal one, though.
>
> You could try this one:  http://www.decodethis.com/Default.aspx
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From tputland at charter.net  Sat Jun  2 16:57:18 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 18:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Way cool shop wall art
Message-ID: <12732b0b.2ac8a8.137af6ac47a.Webtop.47@charter.net>

  Who has $1 million to spare?

evilbay auction: http://tinyurl.com/86vxr6x

evilbay item #160627539245



An SR-71 Blackbird Tail Fin Is for Sale On eBay for $1 Million
  A tail rudder from the fastest airplane in the world could be yours b
for a cool $1 million. The seller didn't say if it was a spare part, or
if it was once part of a functioning SR-71 Blackbird, which is an
important distinction given the cost.
When it debuted in 1964, the SR-71 Blackbird b the mean looking
surveillance aircraft that cruised high above the Soviet Union at speeds
of up to mach 3.5 b cost the U.S. Air Force $34 million per air frame.
Do you think this fraction of a supersonic spy plane is worth a fraction
of its original cost?
The eBay ad is scant on details, but it doesn't look like the seller,
stevessupercoolstuff, has much experience selling aircraft parts. The
bulk of his business appears to be lighted crochet hooks, with a
smattering of other goodies including a Lyrics of John Lennon book, a
W.C. Fields Super 8 comedy film, and a Dwight D. Eisenhower
commemorative medal, among other trinkets. But none of the Steve's other
merchandise is plastered with that cool 3-foot-tall Lockheed Martin
Skunkworks logo.
But whether or not you think the price is right, this orphaned rudder is
a window into a different time, a period in American history when the
Cold War was at its height and muscle cars were the way to get around.
It's fitting then that Lockheed Martin would have designed a spy plane
whose defense mechanism was pure speed. It's aviation's equivalent of
the Pontiac GTO b an airframe designed around two massive engines. If
the Soviets lobbed an anti-aircraft missile at one, the Blackbird's
pilot could simply out accelerate it.
And the strategy worked. Not one of the 32 SR-71s built in the mid-60s
succumbed to enemy fire. That didn't stop the odd training mishap,
though. Between 1966 and 1972, 12 were destroyed in crashes b with one
pilot fatality in 1966. The last one went down in the South China Sea in
1989 after its left engine blew up and damaged the plane's flight
controls. Its crew was rescued by a native fishing boat.
Full size

Compared to the embarrassment President Eisenhower suffered when the
previous generation spy plane b the U2, basically a high altitude glider
equipped with cameras b crash landed in Russia in 1960, the SR-71 was a
stunning success. General Curtis LeMay, of "We should bomb Vietnam back
into the stoneage" fame, didn't want another Francis Gary Powers-style
imbroglio (in other words, military brass couldn't trust the pilots to
eat their cyanide tablets like good boys when they were shot down by the
commies, they needed to rely upon good technology and gutsy flying).
The SR-71's development also spurred interesting innovations in
everything from flight suit and ejection seat design to engine
technology. The Blackbird is essentially a terrestrial spaceship,
designed to fly at 80,000 feet above sea level b not quite outer space,
but close to it. When parked on the tarmac, the SR-71 leaked fuel
because it was designed to be leak free at altitude. Its pilots wore
fully pressurized suits that could withstand the pressure of ejecting at
speeds exceeding 2,100 mph. In 1976, Capt. Eldon W. Joersz and Maj.
George T. Morgan set the speed record for normally aspirated aircraft
(i.e. planes that weren't rocket-powered), hitting a blistering mach
3.5.
So if you're into muscle cars, Cold War memorabilia or just need a cool
wall hanger in your living room b and have $1 million to part with b
maybe you can grab this piece of aviation history.

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun  2 16:52:36 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 18:52:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] State of the art wiring
In-Reply-To: <4FCA5DA0.2020003@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <OF912293AC.779DC7E3-ON85257A11.007D8B24-85257A11.007E2994@mail.megageek.com>

That was me.  I can't even begin to tell you about the engineering 
nightmares over there.  In fact, if I even finish my book, there are 
plenty of photos!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/02/2012 14:28

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] State of the art wiring






Doug Braun wrote:
> That's nothing!  Have a look at this:
>
> 
http://i.usatoday.net/news/gallery/2011/111006_afghanistan/15n111006_afghanistan-pg-horizontal.JPG

>

Gee, wasn't someone on this very list over there doing, oddly enough,
communications work?

mjb.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Jun  3 15:50:22 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:50:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
In-Reply-To: <4FCA489A.5040207@comcast.net>
References: <COL115-W31E79441B554CCF0967A3DCC090@phx.gbl>,
	<4FCA489A.5040207@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <COL115-W56C4A522661C709DD5321CCC0E0@phx.gbl>

Thanks Brian and Peter.

Brian: my Googling also turned up the Euro Drywall Products website, but I
left it after I saw the part about having to buy a pallet.  I had missed the
links to dealers on the contact page, so thanks for that.  Unfortunately, none
of them are near me.  (BTW: the Michigan page includes a video of of the
product being demonstrated at a home show.  Unfortunately, the video is small
and hard to see.  Plus, the real issue is how long it lasts, which you
certainly can't tell from a one time demo.)  But, it is still an interesting
product.  I will probably keep my eyes open for it.

But, your comment about setting type compounds is interesting.  I have used
them before but thought they would require tape over a joint the same as
pre-mixed compound.  Are you saying they don't?  (One more thing for the
record: the ATI Tapeless Compound was pre-mixed.)

And, Peter: thanks for the liquid tape idea.  Unless Brian tells me that I
don't need tape with Durabond, I will give that a try.

Jim

> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 13:08:42 -0400
> From: pj_thomas at comcast.net
> To: jandkstone99 at msn.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
>
> On 6/1/2012 10:23 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> > About 10 years ago I did some drywall repair for a friend of mine, fixing
a
> > spot where the original tape had come away from the wall, exposing the
joint
> > between the two sheets.  I wanted to use fresh tape and conventional
compound,
> > but he had a product called "ATI Tapeless Joint Compound" that he had
> > purchased at Home Depot for the job and wanted me to try.  I was skeptical
but
> > gave it a try.  10 years later the area still looks perfect.  I now need
to
> > repair an area around a light switch at my house and would love to use a
> > similar product to avoid the tape buildup under one side of the switch
plate.
> > I Googled the company (Applied Textures Inc) and the product but all I
can
> > find are old forum postings.  The company's website is no longer
functional,
> > so I assume they are out of business.  Has anyone heard of a similar
product?
> > I looked at Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware, but none of them carried
> > anything similar.
> >
> > Thanks.
> I've had great success using "liquid tape".  What I have done is cut a
> rectangular patch.  Used the patch to clean up the hole. Easier to fit
> the hole to the patch rather than the reverse.  Add blocking around the
> hole inside the wall using scrap pieces of wood.  Just hold the wood in
> place and drive screws through the original wall board.  Then attach the
> patch with wood screws.  Next I fill the crack with dry wall compound.
> Once dry, I sand the seam making sure to expose the paper skin on both
> the patch and the original wall board.  This leaves a band, about an
> inch wide, that is paper and a small amount of filler compound.  I then
> paint the band with "liquid tape" otherwise known as wood glue.  The
> glue soaks into the exposed paper and the compound crack fill and forms
> a really, really strong seamless skin.  After the glue is dried I do a
> quick sanding to remove any high spot (area with too much glue was
> applied).  Apply a quick coat of compound to level things out, sand, paint.
>
> Wood glue is stronger than wood or paper.  I find this holds up better
> than a taped patch and is dead flat.   I moved a light fixture and used
> this technique to path the wall.  Being adjacent to the light I can't
> see the patch.  I challenged my wife to find the patch and she
> couldn't.  Even holding a flash light at a sever angle which shows every
> taped seam and nail, the patch is invisible.
>
> Peter T.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Jun  3 21:58:16 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 22:58:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W56C4A522661C709DD5321CCC0E0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W31E79441B554CCF0967A3DCC090@phx.gbl>,
	<4FCA489A.5040207@comcast.net>
	<COL115-W56C4A522661C709DD5321CCC0E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <004501cd4206$45b836f0$d128a4d0$@ameritech.net>

Another method similar to using wood glue to install drywall patches is to
use Heavy-Duty Liquid Nails out of a caulk gun.  It's thicker than typical
wood glue so it's easier to work with and it's a latex adhesive so it
remains quite flexible.  I thought I'd invented something when I first did
that - but apparently I just reinvented the technique.  Anyway, I've used it
similarly to the way Peter suggested.  I first install a wood slat or two
across the opening and let the glue dry.  In my rock-lath-and-plaster house
I don't usually use screws to fasten the slats because the finish coat of
plaster is very hard and screws would to be countersink and often cause
cracking anyway.  Then I glue in the patch, filling in around the whole
patch with Liquid Nails.  I go over the edge with a taping knife just to
make sure there's nothing projecting (Liquid Nails gums up sandpaper and so
doesn't sand particularly easily), and let it dry.  If the glue shrinks back
and leaves a deep void, I sometimes put in a second coat of Liquid Nails and
again clean off the outside.  Then when it's dry I go over the patch with
joint compound and when dry, sand it lightly.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Stone
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
And, Peter: thanks for the liquid tape idea.  Unless Brian tells me that I
don't need tape with Durabond, I will give that a try.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Jun  4 08:05:42 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:05:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - California destinations
In-Reply-To: <4FBA9DAD.8050603@lne.com>
References: <001701cd3442$63152b30$293f8190$@ameritech.net>
	<4297643A-9AAC-4794-B5CC-C20C86EDADC6@astound.net>
	<4FBA9DAD.8050603@lne.com>
Message-ID: <000301cd425b$21328ab0$6397a010$@ameritech.net>

Too many replies to thank everyone by name, but thank you to one and all for
the many great suggestions for our trip.  We've got them listed (of course
this well-versed group hit a huge proportion of the ideas we found from
other sources).  Jill and I leave early tomorrow morning (after a surprise
60th birthday party for her this evening), and we'll try to hit as many of
your suggestions as possible.  The recommendations about a few of the places
we weren't sure about (for instance Hearst Castle) was really helpful too.
Glad we have 11 days to try to pack everything in.  Jan and Dean and Beach
Boys CD's ready, Mustang convertible waiting! 
Thanks again!
Karl and Jill

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Jun  4 08:19:22 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:19:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - California destinations
In-Reply-To: <000301cd425b$21328ab0$6397a010$@ameritech.net>
References: <001701cd3442$63152b30$293f8190$@ameritech.net>
	<4297643A-9AAC-4794-B5CC-C20C86EDADC6@astound.net>
	<4FBA9DAD.8050603@lne.com>
	<000301cd425b$21328ab0$6397a010$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4FCCC3EA.90401@bradakis.com>

Karl Vacek wrote:
>    Jan and Dean and Beach
> Boys CD's ready, Mustang convertible waiting!
>

I'm not jealous, not me, nope.

mjb.

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Jun  4 10:05:03 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 12:05:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
In-Reply-To: <004501cd4206$45b836f0$d128a4d0$@ameritech.net>
References: <COL115-W31E79441B554CCF0967A3DCC090@phx.gbl>,
	<4FCA489A.5040207@comcast.net>
	<COL115-W56C4A522661C709DD5321CCC0E0@phx.gbl>
	<004501cd4206$45b836f0$d128a4d0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4FCCDCAF.8060201@comcast.net>

On 6/3/2012 11:58 PM, Karl Vacek wrote:
> Another method similar to using wood glue to install drywall patches is to
> use Heavy-Duty Liquid Nails out of a caulk gun.  It's thicker than typical
> wood glue so it's easier to work with and it's a latex adhesive so it
> remains quite flexible.  I thought I'd invented something when I first did
> that - but apparently I just reinvented the technique.

We have two different cases, mine is a dry wall patch in dry wall 
(similar materials) and yours is dry wall patch in plaster (dissimilar 
materials).  I don't think my techinique would work well in your 
situation.  In my case the thinner glue is desirable.  I'm not trying to 
fill a gap with the glue; I'm repairing just the paper layer. This is 
why I sand through the existing paint to expose the paper.  The thinner 
glue soaks into the paper and gap filling compound making the paper 
layer continuous.

Interesting on the liquid nails though.  I've used a similar technique 
to deal with corners where the walls meet the ceiling.  Because of 
settling, some of the tape either ripples or compound cracks at the edge 
of the tape. I pull off the old tape and compound with a corner trowel 
but no tape.  Before painting gouge out the seam with a stiff putty 
knife and fill with ALEX (painter's chaulk) .  Like the liquid nails, 
the ALEX remains flexible and allows for some movement.  My repairs are 
only a year old so I don't how well this will hold up in the long run.  
No cracks so far and I suspect if cracks do appear it will be in the 
seam instead of the tape edge.

Peter T

>   Anyway, I've used it
> similarly to the way Peter suggested.  I first install a wood slat or two
> across the opening and let the glue dry.  In my rock-lath-and-plaster house
> I don't usually use screws to fasten the slats because the finish coat of
> plaster is very hard and screws would to be countersink and often cause
> cracking anyway.  Then I glue in the patch, filling in around the whole
> patch with Liquid Nails.  I go over the edge with a taping knife just to
> make sure there's nothing projecting (Liquid Nails gums up sandpaper and so
> doesn't sand particularly easily), and let it dry.  If the glue shrinks back
> and leaves a deep void, I sometimes put in a second coat of Liquid Nails and
> again clean off the outside.  Then when it's dry I go over the patch with
> joint compound and when dry, sand it lightly.
> Karl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Stone
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
> And, Peter: thanks for the liquid tape idea.  Unless Brian tells me that I
> don't need tape with Durabond, I will give that a try.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Jun  4 15:38:22 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 16:38:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
In-Reply-To: <4FCCDCAF.8060201@comcast.net>
References: <COL115-W31E79441B554CCF0967A3DCC090@phx.gbl>,
	<4FCA489A.5040207@comcast.net>
	<COL115-W56C4A522661C709DD5321CCC0E0@phx.gbl>
	<004501cd4206$45b836f0$d128a4d0$@ameritech.net>
	<4FCCDCAF.8060201@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <007e01cd429a$5debbe60$19c33b20$@ameritech.net>

Ahhh - once again confirmation from this esteemed group that some of the
shortcuts I've thought I invented are actually recognized techniques.
Faced with some bad wall-to-ceiling joints (actually some were never taped -
just wallpapered over in the 60's), I didn't want to tape a fairly
close-fitting, square joint so I forced ALEX into the void instead, and
painted immediately.  It's still fine 20 years after that "repair".  I've
used ALEX on stubborn cracks occasionally too, but my crack treatment of
choice is Krak-Kote, which  is essentially a thinned caulk-like material,
very flexible, applied over a flattened fiberglass mesh.  My house has
literally hundreds of feet of Krak-Kote repaired cracks, and with a couple
of exceptions (former window openings that were closed off in the 60's)
nothing has failed.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter J. Thomas
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?

Interesting on the liquid nails though.  I've used a similar technique to
deal with corners where the walls meet the ceiling.  Because of settling,
some of the tape either ripples or compound cracks at the edge of the tape.
I pull off the old tape and compound with a corner trowel but no tape.
Before painting gouge out the seam with a stiff putty knife and fill with
ALEX (painter's chaulk) .  Like the liquid nails, the ALEX remains flexible
and allows for some movement.  My repairs are only a year old so I don't how
well this will hold up in the long run.  
No cracks so far and I suspect if cracks do appear it will be in the seam
instead of the tape edge.

Peter T

From bob at texmog.com  Wed Jun  6 14:43:00 2012
From: bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:43:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ignition Coils
Message-ID: <1D777118E1994843AA600B8F34B076F7@dellPC>

I need a   Lucas coil for my British built Isetta.   Looking through all the
Lucas coils I have in a box I see that each one seems to have a different
number. Looking on line the number of  Lucas coils seems to go on for ever.
Now  I know that there are coils that use a  external resistor and some that
that donbt .  I also know that there are 6 volt and 12 volt coils.  My
question is why are there so many different coil models?   I mean even
accounting for  screw in terminal and  Spade vs threaded posts  it seems that
there are far more  than the possible combinations.   What other factors come
into play in choosing the right coil?

Thanks for any input

Bob

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  6 17:39:40 2012
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (bk13)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:39:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
Message-ID: <28577984.1339025980179.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Jim - I use mesh tape for long cracks with the setting compound.  For small holes like breaking out around a switch box so I can undo the romex clamp (made two of those last week) or a doorknob dent, I normally skip the tape.

Tip: to match texture of multiple paint jobs, take some really thinned joint compound and use a section of foam pad (like a paint pad) and pat it on the smooth patch.  That will add a little texture without much effort.  If you add too much texture, just take a damp sponge and wipe some off.  If you have a perfectly smooth patch, it will stand out if you have a couple of layers of rollered paint.  This technique hides it a bit.

Brian


-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
>Sent: Jun 3, 2012 2:50 PM
>To: pj_thomas at comcast.net, bk13 at earthlink.net
>Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Tapeless Joint Compound?
>
>
>Thanks Brian and Peter.  
>
>Brian: my Googling also turned up the Euro Drywall Products website, but I left it after I saw the part about having to buy a pallet.  I had missed the links to dealers on the contact page, so thanks for that.  Unfortunately, none of them are near me.  (BTW: the Michigan page includes a video of of the product being demonstrated at a home show.  Unfortunately, the video is small and hard to see.  Plus, the real issue is how long it lasts, which you certainly can't tell from a one time demo.)  But, it is still an interesting product.  I will probably keep my eyes open for it.
>
>But, your comment about setting type compounds is interesting.  I have used them before but thought they would require tape over a joint the same as pre-mixed compound.  Are you saying they don't?  (One more thing for the record: the ATI Tapeless Compound was pre-mixed.)  
>
>And, Peter: thanks for the liquid tape idea.  Unless Brian tells me that I don't need tape with Durabond, I will give that a try.
>
>Jim

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Jun  6 18:21:34 2012
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:21:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ignition Coils
In-Reply-To: <1D777118E1994843AA600B8F34B076F7@dellPC>
References: <1D777118E1994843AA600B8F34B076F7@dellPC>
Message-ID: <0M58002D91389OH0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Bob,

Take a look at this Lucas catalog:

http://campkahler.com/files/Lucas-400e-to-F68-ocr.pdf

Go to page F58 for the coil section.  You will see the different 
model numbers and the specifications and features.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 04:43 PM 6/6/2012, Bob Nogueira wrote:
>I need a   Lucas coil for my British built Isetta.   Looking through all the
>Lucas coils I have in a box I see that each one seems to have a different
>number. Looking on line the number of  Lucas coils seems to go on for ever.
>Now  I know that there are coils that use a  external resistor and some that
>that donbt .  I also know that there are 6 volt and 12 volt coils.  My
>question is why are there so many different coil models?   I mean even
>accounting for  screw in terminal and  Spade vs threaded posts  it seems that
>there are far more  than the possible combinations.   What other factors come
>into play in choosing the right coil?
>
>Thanks for any input
>
>Bob

From shochschild at att.net  Wed Jun  6 19:02:20 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:02:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
Message-ID: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>

I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, as 
it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step 
towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a 
carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the 
surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.  
The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any plumbing, 
heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends, insulate it, and 
air condition it, but not for a good while.

So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have sticker 
shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal building: 
the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' sides, 8" 
footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with compressed 
base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for $6500 and the 
other was $11,500.

I can't afford anywhere near that for what is essentially a glorified 
carport, so I am thinking about just getting the footers and leaving the 
slab part for later.

I guess I could lay down some gravel, but a friend of mine suggested 
some kind of pressed earth floor?  Anyone ever hear of something like that?

I am thinking I could come back later and finish the slab, is this 
unreasonable?

What would you do?

I welcome all comments  other than the ones I am hearing already, which 
are taking the form of "Why did you get into this mess?  Didn't you know 
this was going to cost this much?"

Thanx!

From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 19:23:33 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:23:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CODwS-pxOZTmy45b25=XViuZo5k9zprfzZkmxnoQ-7VXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 9:02 PM, steve hochschild <shochschild at att.net> wrote:
> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, as it
> has no ends) on the truck coming my way,

Steelmaster?  Or a clone?

>   One bid was for $6500 and the other was
> $11,500.

I would ask those guys "Why so different?"  and "How much for just the
footers?"

Around here, the garage floor isn't poured until the house is
finished.  I never understood why.  I'd be tempted to go with the
gravel and footers, but you won't be satisfied until there's a
concrete pad to work on.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun  6 19:23:49 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:23:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <OF18EFC693.A9CB8277-ON85257A16.00075395-85257A16.00083422@mail.megageek.com>

What I did for one of my buildings was just pave the ground (and go out 
about a 1' in each direction.)  Then I erected the building on that.  It 
was cheaper than concrete and functions much the same.

In the Army, they was a product the used in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It was 
sprayed directly on soil and the soil was compacted.  It created a surface 
almost like concrete.  It needed to be reapplied every couple of years, 
but that was only due to rainfall (a non issue in a covered area.)  I'll 
see if I can find any information on it if you are interested.  I was a 
really cheap option as I remember.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




steve hochschild <shochschild at att.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/06/2012 21:05
Please respond to
steve at hochschild.org


To
'shop-talk' <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?






I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, as 
it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step 
towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a 
carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the 
surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary. 
The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any plumbing, 
heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends, insulate it, and 
air condition it, but not for a good while.

So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have sticker 
shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal building: 
the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' sides, 8" 
footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with compressed 
base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for $6500 and the 
other was $11,500.

I can't afford anywhere near that for what is essentially a glorified 
carport, so I am thinking about just getting the footers and leaving the 
slab part for later.

I guess I could lay down some gravel, but a friend of mine suggested 
some kind of pressed earth floor?  Anyone ever hear of something like 
that?

I am thinking I could come back later and finish the slab, is this 
unreasonable?

What would you do?

I welcome all comments  other than the ones I am hearing already, which 
are taking the form of "Why did you get into this mess?  Didn't you know 
this was going to cost this much?"

Thanx!
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 19:45:49 2012
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 20:45:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <CA+7Nz3osy2Pdqhsq-6d2dn_wGAGCDnjf+sWQ_pF40MFw6xYNGQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Check out the wiki on "soil cement".*
*All one needs is a good tiller (tractor mounted is best) and a grasp of
the technology . . the process is even used for landing strips and
secondary roads.  I had a pal that did his hanger floor with the technique
and it was very satisfactory .  .  . he had a dusty surface problem he
solved by brooming on a few 5 gallon cans of "boiled" linseed oil.  Go for
it.*
*Tony
*
On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 8:02 PM, steve hochschild <shochschild at att.net>wrote:

> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, as
> it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step towards
> my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a carport for my
> three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the surface of the sun in
> Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.  The building only cost me
> $4500, and I don't plan to have any plumbing, heat or AC now, but
> eventually I could add the ends, insulate it, and air condition it, but not
> for a good while.
>
> So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have sticker
> shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal building: the
> vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' sides, 8" footers
> across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with compressed base,
> re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for $6500 and the other was
> $11,500.
>
> I can't afford anywhere near that for what is essentially a glorified
> carport, so I am thinking about just getting the footers and leaving the
> slab part for later.
>
> I guess I could lay down some gravel, but a friend of mine suggested some
> kind of pressed earth floor?  Anyone ever hear of something like that?
>
> I am thinking I could come back later and finish the slab, is this
> unreasonable?
>
> What would you do?
>
> I welcome all comments  other than the ones I am hearing already, which
> are taking the form of "Why did you get into this mess?  Didn't you know
> this was going to cost this much?"
>
> Thanx!
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com>

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Wed Jun  6 19:48:23 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 21:48:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FD00867.9000509@comcast.net>

On 6/6/2012 9:02 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, 
> as it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step 
> towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a 
> carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the 
> surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.  
> The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any 
> plumbing, heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends, 
> insulate it, and air condition it, but not for a good while.
>
> So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have 
> sticker shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal 
> building: the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' 
> sides, 8" footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with 
> compressed base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for 
> $6500 and the other was $11,500.
>
> I can't afford anywhere near that for what is essentially a glorified 
> carport, so I am thinking about just getting the footers and leaving 
> the slab part for later.
>
> I guess I could lay down some gravel, but a friend of mine suggested 
> some kind of pressed earth floor?  Anyone ever hear of something like 
> that?

I believe there was a discussion on this group about soil cement.  
Concrete is aggregate, sand and gravel, mixed with portland cement.  
With soil cement the portland cement is mixed into the soil with a 
rototiller and compacted.  The soil is the aggregate.  They use this 
technique to build runways and line drainage canals.  It supposed to 
stand up to light traffic.  There's all sorts of science on it, google 
turns up lots of information.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun  6 19:59:40 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:59:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FD00B0C.9030404@hornesystemstx.com>

Steve,

Please get with me off list with your exact location. I used to live in 
Austin, but moved south to Lockhart. We have a very good concrete 
contractor here that I can have contact you. He does the slabs for 
Austin Habitat for Humanity.

Are you in the city, or in the county?

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake steve hochschild, On 6/6/2012 8:02 PM:
> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, 
> as it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step 
> towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a 
> carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the 
> surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.  
> The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any 
> plumbing, heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends, 
> insulate it, and air condition it, but not for a good while.
>
> So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have 
> sticker shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal 
> building: the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' 
> sides, 8" footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with 
> compressed base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for 
> $6500 and the other was $11,500.
>
> I can't afford anywhere near that for what is essentially a glorified 
> carport, so I am thinking about just getting the footers and leaving 
> the slab part for later.
>
> I guess I could lay down some gravel, but a friend of mine suggested 
> some kind of pressed earth floor?  Anyone ever hear of something like 
> that?
>
> I am thinking I could come back later and finish the slab, is this 
> unreasonable?
>
> What would you do?
>
> I welcome all comments  other than the ones I am hearing already, 
> which are taking the form of "Why did you get into this mess?  Didn't 
> you know this was going to cost this much?"
>
> Thanx!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  6 20:17:44 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:17:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <CA+7Nz3osy2Pdqhsq-6d2dn_wGAGCDnjf+sWQ_pF40MFw6xYNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
	<CA+7Nz3osy2Pdqhsq-6d2dn_wGAGCDnjf+sWQ_pF40MFw6xYNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018201cd4453$ba1ab820$2e502860$@rr.com>

Just out of curiosity, why are the beefy headers required with cement, but
not with soil cement?

My Dad went through the same problem, the building inspector required
headers that doubled the volume of concrete, for what was basically a
covered driveway.

-- Randall 

From rkg at teleport.com  Wed Jun  6 20:38:40 2012
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 19:38:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FD01430.3050904@teleport.com>

Steve,

I had a buddy that had one of these buildings that he floored with some 
kind of  paver - seemed to work fine for car storage, etc.

Best,

rkg
(Richard George)

On 6/6/2012 6:02 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, 
> as it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step 
> towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a 
> carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the 
> surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.  
> The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any 
> plumbing, heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends, 
> insulate it, and air condition it, but not for a good while.
>
> So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have 
> sticker shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal 
> building: the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' 
> sides, 8" footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with 
> compressed base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for 
> $6500 and the other was $11,500.
>
> I can't afford anywhere near that for what is essentially a glorified 
> carport, so I am thinking about just getting the footers and leaving 
> the slab part for later.
>
> I guess I could lay down some gravel, but a friend of mine suggested 
> some kind of pressed earth floor?  Anyone ever hear of something like 
> that?
>
> I am thinking I could come back later and finish the slab, is this 
> unreasonable?
>
> What would you do?
>
> I welcome all comments  other than the ones I am hearing already, 
> which are taking the form of "Why did you get into this mess?  Didn't 
> you know this was going to cost this much?"
>
> Thanx!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rkg at teleport.com

From racertod at racertodd.com  Wed Jun  6 22:33:05 2012
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 21:33:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <OF18EFC693.A9CB8277-ON85257A16.00075395-85257A16.00083422@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20120606213110.03183ac8@mail.avvanta.com>

Eric wrote:

>In the Army, they was a product the used in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It was
>sprayed directly on soil and the soil was compacted.  It created a surface
>almost like concrete.  It needed to be reapplied every couple of years,
>but that was only due to rainfall (a non issue in a covered area.)  I'll
>see if I can find any information on it if you are interested.  I was a
>really cheap option as I remember.

         It might have been something like Poly Pavement: 
http://www.polypavement.com/.  I haven't used this product yet, but had 
this site bookmarked for a future project.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 275,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       347,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From shochschild at att.net  Fri Jun  8 14:03:28 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:03:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metal building w/out slab?
In-Reply-To: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
References: <4FCFFD9C.5020608@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FD25A90.5060309@att.net>

Big Thanks to all of you who responded!

Soil cement is what I was asking about, and after the suggestions here, 
I looked at a number of sites and documents.  An especially helpful one 
is a pdf from UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY COLLEGE OF AGRICULTURE, /Using 
Soil-Cement on Horse and Livestock Farms/, Steve F. Higgins, D. Spencer 
Guinn and Donnie Stamper, Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering

I got a footings-only bid of $3500, but at this point I am probably 
going to do the job myself.  Once I staked it out, the two trenches 
didn't seem so daunting.

I think I can figure out the scraping, trenching, form building, and the 
wiring up of the rebar/stirrups - My remaining big question is how to do 
the concrete.  The big reason these bids are high is that the concrete 
would have to be pumped, but if I do it myself I would rent a cement 
mixer and mix it at the site.

I know it will take many batches per footing, and it will be over 95 or 
100 degrees when this happens, so I am worried that the concrete will 
set up before I get the footing filled.  One way would be to try to do 
the batches quicker, keep the mix in the trench moist, and mix them as I 
march down the footing.  But another suggested approach is to put in 
some dividers in the form, and do the complete height in each segment, 
let it set up, then remove the divider and pour the next segment.

Doing it myself is partially penance for my lack of planning, so I 
acknowledge that it will be a lot of hot, sweaty, dirty work, but I 
deserve it.

I am excited about finally getting a shaded space to work, and I 
appreciate the advice and counsel.



On 6/6/2012 8:02 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, 
> as it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step 
> towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a 
> carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the 
> surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.  
> The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any 
> plumbing, heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends, 
> insulate it, and air condition it, but not for a good while.
>
> So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have 
> sticker shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal 
> building: the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' 
> sides, 8" footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with 
> compressed base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for 
> $6500 and the other was $11,500.
>
> I can't afford anywhere near that for what is essentially a glorified 
> carport, so I am thinking about just getting the footers and leaving 
> the slab part for later.
>
> I guess I could lay down some gravel, but a friend of mine suggested 
> some kind of pressed earth floor?  Anyone ever hear of something like 
> that?
>
> I am thinking I could come back later and finish the slab, is this 
> unreasonable?
>
> What would you do?
>
> I welcome all comments  other than the ones I am hearing already, 
> which are taking the form of "Why did you get into this mess?  Didn't 
> you know this was going to cost this much?"
>
> Thanx!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild at att.net

From jmitch at snet.net  Sat Jun  9 18:13:48 2012
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 20:13:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rhino Shield house paint
Message-ID: <4FD3E6BC.6090707@snet.net>

    I have my house, which is covered in cedar clapboards, completely 
stripped down to bare wood.  I'm preparing to paint and I'm waiting for 
a dry interval to put on oil based primer.  A house nearby, recently was 
painted with Rhino Shield which is advertised as the last paint you'll 
ever need.  Has anyone had experience with any of the ceramic coatings 
on their home?  I was wondering how it holds up.  Thanks for any 
advice.   John Mitchell     Shelton, CT

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sun Jun 10 11:36:28 2012
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:36:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pour your own footing?
References: <mailman.22.1339264803.24070.shop-talk@autox.team.net> 
Message-ID: <84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>

(apologies if this goes out twice: wrong account first time)

I did a bit of math here: if you are going to follow the recommendation for
the footing size you listed (19"x24"x30'x2 plus 8"x8"x25'x2) than you are
talking about just over 200 cubic feet of concrete.  I believe it would pay
to have someone bring it in premixed and pump it in rather than trucking in
all that mix, hauling it to the site (I assume there is no access for a
truck or you would have no need to pump it), mixing it, and and and.
You should be able to get a pumper for just a couple of hundred dollars
above the cost of the material (and you'll save on that if you buy it in
bulk instead of by the bag or pickup-load).  
I think you should consider building all the forms and then have a truck and
pump show up and fill 'em up.

Mark Miller
Tiny garage, big mouth.


<<<
Big Thanks to all of you who responded!

Soil cement is what I was asking about, and after the suggestions here, 
I looked at a number of sites and documents.  An especially helpful one 
is a pdf from UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY COLLEGE OF AGRICULTURE, /Using 
Soil-Cement on Horse and Livestock Farms/, Steve F. Higgins, D. Spencer 
Guinn and Donnie Stamper, Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering

I got a footings-only bid of $3500, but at this point I am probably 
going to do the job myself.  Once I staked it out, the two trenches 
didn't seem so daunting.

I think I can figure out the scraping, trenching, form building, and the 
wiring up of the rebar/stirrups - My remaining big question is how to do 
the concrete.  The big reason these bids are high is that the concrete 
would have to be pumped, but if I do it myself I would rent a cement 
mixer and mix it at the site.

I know it will take many batches per footing, and it will be over 95 or 
100 degrees when this happens, so I am worried that the concrete will 
set up before I get the footing filled.  One way would be to try to do 
the batches quicker, keep the mix in the trench moist, and mix them as I 
march down the footing.  But another suggested approach is to put in 
some dividers in the form, and do the complete height in each segment, 
let it set up, then remove the divider and pour the next segment.

Doing it myself is partially penance for my lack of planning, so I 
acknowledge that it will be a lot of hot, sweaty, dirty work, but I 
deserve it.

I am excited about finally getting a shaded space to work, and I 
appreciate the advice and counsel.



On 6/6/2012 8:02 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel, 
> as it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step 
> towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a 
> carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the 
> surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.  
> The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any 
> plumbing, heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends, 
> insulate it, and air condition it, but not for a good while.
>
> So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have 
> sticker shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal 
> building: the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30' 
> sides, 8" footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with 
> compressed base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for 
> $6500 and the other was $11,500.

From shochschild at att.net  Sun Jun 10 13:40:13 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 14:40:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pour your own footing?
In-Reply-To: <84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>
References: <mailman.22.1339264803.24070.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>
Message-ID: <4FD4F81D.7070805@att.net>

I think you are correct.  I found a concrete calculator that came up 
with similar numbers, and even worse, I have decided to extend the 
footers another 10' while I am at it, to allow me to make better use of 
the available site in the future...

I have been quoted a $900 up charge for the pump by my two bidders, but 
it will be worth it, to have it done by someone who knows what he is 
doing, and to save me from the  hard labor in the hot sun.

I appreciate the insight.



On 6/10/2012 12:36 PM, Mark Miller wrote:
> (apologies if this goes out twice: wrong account first time)
>
> I did a bit of math here: if you are going to follow the recommendation for
> the footing size you listed (19"x24"x30'x2 plus 8"x8"x25'x2) than you are
> talking about just over 200 cubic feet of concrete.  I believe it would pay
> to have someone bring it in premixed and pump it in rather than trucking in
> all that mix, hauling it to the site (I assume there is no access for a
> truck or you would have no need to pump it), mixing it, and and and.
> You should be able to get a pumper for just a couple of hundred dollars
> above the cost of the material (and you'll save on that if you buy it in
> bulk instead of by the bag or pickup-load).
> I think you should consider building all the forms and then have a truck and
> pump show up and fill 'em up.
>
> Mark Miller
> Tiny garage, big mouth.
>
>
> <<<
> Big Thanks to all of you who responded!
>
> Soil cement is what I was asking about, and after the suggestions here,
> I looked at a number of sites and documents.  An especially helpful one
> is a pdf from UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY COLLEGE OF AGRICULTURE, /Using
> Soil-Cement on Horse and Livestock Farms/, Steve F. Higgins, D. Spencer
> Guinn and Donnie Stamper, Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering
>
> I got a footings-only bid of $3500, but at this point I am probably
> going to do the job myself.  Once I staked it out, the two trenches
> didn't seem so daunting.
>
> I think I can figure out the scraping, trenching, form building, and the
> wiring up of the rebar/stirrups - My remaining big question is how to do
> the concrete.  The big reason these bids are high is that the concrete
> would have to be pumped, but if I do it myself I would rent a cement
> mixer and mix it at the site.
>
> I know it will take many batches per footing, and it will be over 95 or
> 100 degrees when this happens, so I am worried that the concrete will
> set up before I get the footing filled.  One way would be to try to do
> the batches quicker, keep the mix in the trench moist, and mix them as I
> march down the footing.  But another suggested approach is to put in
> some dividers in the form, and do the complete height in each segment,
> let it set up, then remove the divider and pour the next segment.
>
> Doing it myself is partially penance for my lack of planning, so I
> acknowledge that it will be a lot of hot, sweaty, dirty work, but I
> deserve it.
>
> I am excited about finally getting a shaded space to work, and I
> appreciate the advice and counsel.
>
>
>
> On 6/6/2012 8:02 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
>> I have a 25'x30'x12' self supporting metal building (really a tunnel,
>> as it has no ends) on the truck coming my way, as the first baby step
>> towards my own shop.  For now it will be used as trailer storage, a
>> carport for my three dead cars, and welding space.    I live on the
>> surface of the sun in Austin, Texas, so a shaded space is necessary.
>> The building only cost me $4500, and I don't plan to have any
>> plumbing, heat or AC now, but eventually I could add the ends,
>> insulate it, and air condition it, but not for a good while.
>>
>> So I started meeting with concrete contractors today, and I have
>> sticker shock.    I asked for a bid on a 'standard' slab for a metal
>> building: the vendor specifies 19"wide x 24"deep footers on the 30'
>> sides, 8" footers across the open ends, and a 4" slab, basically, with
>> compressed base, re-bar, vapor barrier and so on.  One bid was for
>> $6500 and the other was $11,500.

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 13:55:26 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:55:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pour your own footing?
In-Reply-To: <84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>
References: <mailman.22.1339264803.24070.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMSi6m+q0e_Ws8aX+eiXaYiL6mhX7qj=zbXeZLvK9ZGYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Mark Miller
<markmiller at threeboysfarm.com> wrote:

> I did a bit of math here: if you are going to follow the recommendation for
> the footing size you listed (19"x24"x30'x2 plus 8"x8"x25'x2) than you are
> talking about just over 200 cubic feet of concrete.

Which is 450 80 lb. bags.  That's over $5600 at my local big box
store, but you might get a quantity discount.

Seems easy to compare that to $3500 and no labor on your part....

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Sun Jun 10 14:11:02 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:11:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pour your own footing?
In-Reply-To: <4FD4F81D.7070805@att.net>
References: <mailman.22.1339264803.24070.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>
	<4FD4F81D.7070805@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FD4FF56.9010405@comcast.net>

On 6/10/2012 3:40 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> I think you are correct.  I found a concrete calculator that came up 
> with similar numbers, and even worse, I have decided to extend the 
> footers another 10' while I am at it, to allow me to make better use 
> of the available site in the future...
>
> I have been quoted a $900 up charge for the pump by my two bidders, 
> but it will be worth it, to have it done by someone who knows what he 
> is doing, and to save me from the  hard labor in the hot sun.
>
> I appreciate the insight.

The hot Texas sun adds another problem. Pour at 40 degees and it takes 
days to cure; pour at 90 degrees and it's just hours.  I'd be concerned 
with a slower, much more stretched out pour about cracking.  I've heard 
stories of side walks poured in the hot sun on a hot day cracking just 
hours after the pour.  This becomes even more of a problem with 
differences in the each mix; one mix slightly wetter than the next.  
With it trucked in the batch is consistent and cures evenly.  I'd also 
see, since this is your own project, if you can get the mix delivered at 
the end of the day.

Peter T.

From phoenix722 at comcast.net  Sun Jun 10 15:34:04 2012
From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 14:34:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pour your own footing?
References: <mailman.22.1339264803.24070.shop-talk@autox.team.net><84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>
	<4FD4F81D.7070805@att.net>
Message-ID: <BA2708C3958345EEAB2F6C9F0705BE86@Mike>

Steve--The concrete people are pretty helpful. You might ask them for advice
on setting forms, rebar, etc.  If you look half-way competent and eager to
do it right, they will be a help.  If you "know-it-all", heaven help you.

Mike

From mbarre at juno.com  Sun Jun 10 16:53:03 2012
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:53:03 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pour your own footing?
Message-ID: <20120610.185303.7174.1@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>

I won't for a moment dispute the benefit of avoiding bagged mix.Having mixed
25 bags in a wheel barrow with a shovel, I vowed to beg, borrow, buy or steal
a portable mixer should I ever do another concrete job where I couldn't get a
truck in.  But a calculation check may be in order: using the quickrete.com
calculator, 200 CF comes to 333 80# bags that around here (middle GA) goes for
$3.50/bag or around $1200. My back hurts just thinking about 300+ 80# bags of
quickrete!


Matt


<markmiller at threeboysfarm.com> wrote:

> the footing size you listed (19"x24"x30'x2 plus 8"x8"x25'x2) than you are
> talking about just over 200 cubic feet of concrete.

Which is 450 80 lb. bags.  That's over $5600 at my local big box
store, but you might get a quantity discount.

Seems easy to compare that to $3500 and no labor on your part....

Jeff Scarbrough

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jun 10 18:04:00 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:04:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pour your own footing?
In-Reply-To: <4FD4F81D.7070805@att.net>
References: <mailman.22.1339264803.24070.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<84C1FE4600E9418CAB5BBCE878518EBD@SusieandMarkPC>
	<4FD4F81D.7070805@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FD535F0.6030802@xxiii.com>

The current issue of "Fine Home Building" magazine has a great article 
on DIY concrete work. My scanner at work has been flaky, but maybe I can 
shoot you a copy tomorrow. Or score yourself one @ Lowes.

-Wayne

On 6/10/2012 3:40 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> I think you are correct. I found a concrete calculator that came up with
> similar numbers, and even worse, I have decided to extend the footers
> another 10' while I am at it, to allow me to make better use of the
> available site in the future...
>
> I have been quoted a $900 up charge for the pump by my two bidders, but
> it will be worth it, to have it done by someone who knows what he is
> doing, and to save me from the hard labor in the hot sun.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 07:10:28 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:10:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] usb outlets
Message-ID: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>

There are various outlets that include, in addition to a standard pair
of NEMA-15 receptacles, one or more USB charging ports.  That seems
like it would be handy for a couple of places around here, which has a
typically delightfully vintage outlet shortage.  Anyone have any
experience, good, bad, ugly with any?

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Tue Jun 12 08:45:37 2012
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:45:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] usb outlets
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRXMSbdk1N3xbiPtFhgNt0CxC_LnS=8xos8s9-Ht84-zVw@mail.gmail.com>

We have a couple of the Belkin power strips with three USB power ports.
One is where we plug in our phones:  One Samsung, one Kindle and an iPod
charge off of it.  The other is in our bedroom and charges an iPhone and
baby monitor -- when we plug in the iPad is does not charge unless the
screen is shut-off...the iPad charger must support higher amperage.  I'd
check the amperage of the outlet you are looking at and compare it to the
items you want to charge via USB.

- Ian

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:10 AM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are various outlets that include, in addition to a standard pair
> of NEMA-15 receptacles, one or more USB charging ports.  That seems
> like it would be handy for a couple of places around here, which has a
> typically delightfully vintage outlet shortage.  Anyone have any
> experience, good, bad, ugly with any?
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org

From arvidj at visi.com  Tue Jun 12 09:04:46 2012
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:04:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] usb outlets
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRXMSbdk1N3xbiPtFhgNt0CxC_LnS=8xos8s9-Ht84-zVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFnfnRXMSbdk1N3xbiPtFhgNt0CxC_LnS=8xos8s9-Ht84-zVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BCF84AD83354420189608FD66A507F7C@HP62011>

Charging an iPad from a USB port ...  not all of them supply enough power 
...

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4060


-----Original Message----- 
From: Ian McFetridge
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:45 AM
To: David Scheidt
Cc: shop-talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] usb outlets

We have a couple of the Belkin power strips with three USB power ports.
One is where we plug in our phones:  One Samsung, one Kindle and an iPod
charge off of it.  The other is in our bedroom and charges an iPhone and
baby monitor -- when we plug in the iPad is does not charge unless the
screen is shut-off...the iPad charger must support higher amperage.  I'd
check the amperage of the outlet you are looking at and compare it to the
items you want to charge via USB.

- Ian

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:10 AM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are various outlets that include, in addition to a standard pair
> of NEMA-15 receptacles, one or more USB charging ports.  That seems
> like it would be handy for a couple of places around here, which has a
> typically delightfully vintage outlet shortage.  Anyone have any
> experience, good, bad, ugly with any?
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 12 09:36:14 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:36:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] usb outlets
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRXMSbdk1N3xbiPtFhgNt0CxC_LnS=8xos8s9-Ht84-zVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFnfnRXMSbdk1N3xbiPtFhgNt0CxC_LnS=8xos8s9-Ht84-zVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9WkwTtbfy-kmOcWFyEn-SWEC8HuczypA+9kSSQrkqkS0w@mail.gmail.com>

I bought this TruePower duplex outlet that has two USB charging ports (and
a special cover plate with extra holes).
Unfortunately it is wider than a standard output, and doesn't quite fit in
my house's junction boxes.

Doug

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Ian McFetridge
<shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>wrote:

> We have a couple of the Belkin power strips with three USB power ports.
> One is where we plug in our phones:  One Samsung, one Kindle and an iPod
> charge off of it.  The other is in our bedroom and charges an iPhone and
> baby monitor -- when we plug in the iPad is does not charge unless the
> screen is shut-off...the iPad charger must support higher amperage.  I'd
> check the amperage of the outlet you are looking at and compare it to the
> items you want to charge via USB.
>
> - Ian

From brabel at comcast.net  Tue Jun 12 23:25:53 2012
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:25:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] usb outlets
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A19999AF-B32E-48E5-A9E7-6E2300EF892F@comcast.net>

Glowing endorsement!

I have installed four U-Sockets from FastMac, which consist of a two-outlet
device with two USB ports on edge to the left of the 120V outlets. It is
slightly wider than a normal outlet, and, yes, I had one particular case where
the box was too narrow (60s-vintage metal box). The device works fabulously.
There doesn't seem to be any current limitation, as it seems to charge as
quickly a a 12V adapter in a car cigarette lighter socket. The downside is
that it uses a special cover plate to accommodate the USBs. Their line has
since been broadened, as it originally was only available in white, and not
available in Decora style. It works well for everything I throw at it.

Just this week, I did a search on Amazon, and found a replacement outlet that
has one 120V outlet, and two USBs in the space of the other outlet. This could
be retrofitted into double or triple wall boxes. They are Decora style, which
fits with the other outlets in our home, and it even comes in black, for a
particular place in our kitchen.

Here is a page from Amazon that shows all the devices. FastMac also has a
website.

<http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keyw
ords=Cooper+Wiring+Devices+TR7740>

The Cooper devices have been shipped, and I will report on their suitability
if this thread is still going when they arrive.

- Bill Rabel
  Anacortes



On Jun 12, 2012, at 6:10 AM, David Scheidt wrote:

> There are various outlets that include, in addition to a standard pair
> of NEMA-15 receptacles, one or more USB charging ports.  That seems
> like it would be handy for a couple of places around here, which has a
> typically delightfully vintage outlet shortage.  Anyone have any
> experience, good, bad, ugly with any?
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/brabel at comcast.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jun 13 08:19:47 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:19:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] usb outlets
In-Reply-To: <A19999AF-B32E-48E5-A9E7-6E2300EF892F@comcast.net>
References: <CA+k5suo5pF7iJaznTXUm+8wHDM3rh7gf+mBYyD25BPdpmkK0ug@mail.gmail.com>
	<A19999AF-B32E-48E5-A9E7-6E2300EF892F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4FD8A183.2090607@xxiii.com>

>> There are various outlets that include, in addition to a standard pair
>> of NEMA-15 receptacles, one or more USB charging ports.  That seems

Don't have any experience with the outlets, but would like to warn 
against using your PC or tablet as a charger, as some one mentioned. 
Most current phones and other devices have a standard micro-usb jack for 
charging, but are "dumb" and do not communicate over it, and may exceed 
the allowable current draw. And thus can fry a host USB port. Had to 
replace a mobo' in my aunt's PC last month for it.

Per the USB spec that you can find on Wikipedia, a device is "allowed" 
to draw <= 100mA initially, and can then communicate with the host 
controller and "request" to draw more current in 100mA increments, up to 
500mA. If the device can communicate via USB, then it should follow the 
standards; if it's charge-only, beware.

-Wayne

From tputland at charter.net  Wed Jun 13 14:08:38 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:08:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
Message-ID: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>

I would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).

I would also like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical 
system as an anti-theft device.

Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!!

tim

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jun 13 14:43:44 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:43:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
In-Reply-To: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
References: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9Xhp22BfCsm4GyH5iS4rY=K3=P3MwbubueOLiRV=U07hg@mail.gmail.com>

For the air horn:  Get one that plays "La Cucaracha".

Doug

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> I would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).
>
> I would also like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical
> system as an anti-theft device.
>
> Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks!!

From jniolon at att.net  Wed Jun 13 15:06:45 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:06:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
References: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
	<CAOtbU9Xhp22BfCsm4GyH5iS4rY=K3=P3MwbubueOLiRV=U07hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A711E54F45AE48B8944A3CA4E27EFB61@john5043a2d406>

one of the easiest  anti theft devices is simply a toggle switch that wire 
in the coil feed...hide it well and use it !   on the new cars with multiple 
coils you might have to find the line that feeds 12 volts to them... 
something leaving the computer ?????   I've done this for years.

air horns ???  gonna need a compressor and tank... some small inexpensive 
units come with them built in but they really aren't "air" horns like the 
big rigs...... but I would require it to play "Dixie"
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
To: "Shop-Talk" <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions


> For the air horn:  Get one that plays "La Cucaracha".
>
> Doug
>
> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> I would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).
>>
>> I would also like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical
>> system as an anti-theft device.
>>
>> Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> Thanks!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun 13 16:56:34 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:56:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
In-Reply-To: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
References: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4FD91AA2.5020705@hornesystemstx.com>

Tim,

I like the idea of an immobilizer that allows the vehicle to get out of 
the parking place, then dies. That way the thief can't take any time to 
try to find the switch and abandons the car in the middle of the street.

New cars can have the switch in series with the fuel pump power lead. 
Personally, I have a time delay fuse in series with the ignition coil 
power lead with the switch across it to bypass the fuse. Select a value 
for the fuse to allow the vehicle to start and run for 15-30 seconds 
before the fuse blows If you connect a relay coil across the fuse also, 
the contacts can be used to blow the horn until the key is turned off. 
This should make the would be thief abandon the car in short order!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Tim, On 6/13/2012 3:08 PM:
> I would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).
>
> I would also like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical
> system as an anti-theft device.
>
> Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks!!
>
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Wed Jun 13 19:05:30 2012
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:05:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
In-Reply-To: <4FD91AA2.5020705@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
	<4FD91AA2.5020705@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <65DD3C01-5D1A-48E9-BE58-64C8464B7B35@trebelhorn.com>

As far as air horns, I have used the 2 or 3 trumpet ones you get at  
the generic auto parts stores.  The ones I've found are FIAMM, an  
Italian brand, and are actually pretty good -- loud but a nice  
sound.  Cheapish at a local store, more expensive if you buy from  
Moss/International Auto Parts/etc. but the same piece either way.

Matt


>> I would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).
>>
>> I would also like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical
>> system as an anti-theft device.
>>
>> Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> Thanks!!
>>
>> tim

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 19:21:31 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:21:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
In-Reply-To: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
References: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>
Message-ID: <1339636891.88538.YahooMailNeo@web160105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I haven't found an air horn that can top hornblasters yet. A little pricey,
but the ebay clone I got is no match. On youtube, search for hornblasters and
while some videos the folks are having fun or being stupid depending on your
perspective, that's the type of attention my next truck will have when a horn
is needed. I'm contemplating adding a timer to the regular horn, that will
activate the horn blasters when needed for those long winded horn moments.
<bg>

Imobilizers are a dime a dozen and an you just need a relay some wire
and some soldering skills. Many different ideas on the web, from magnetic
switches to activate the relay to other switches inside activating the relay. 
Regards,
Brian



>________________________________
> From: Tim
<tputland at charter.net>
>To: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
>Sent: Wednesday, June
13, 2012 4:08 PM
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
> 
>I
would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).
>
>I would also
like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical 
>system as an
anti-theft device.
>
>Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Thanks!!
>(snip)

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 14 07:34:06 2012
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:34:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions - non-air horn
 suggestions
In-Reply-To: <1339636891.88538.YahooMailNeo@web160105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1dc4e6de.3311df.137e7764bf9.Webtop.45@charter.net>,
	<1339636891.88538.YahooMailNeo@web160105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W46B5FF696BDBD597A7B29F9AF40@phx.gbl>

I did some research awhile back on a good non-air horn for my left lane
monster (turbocharged 85 Golf) since thre are way too many idiots in the
passing lane in my area.  I had narrowed it down to a few, one of which was an
"Italian style" from Griot's Garage which had a unique sound and was louder
than normal - all the saved URLs I have from my research are at home...

I plan to wire it to a separate switch on the dash for certain occasions.  I
never pulled the trigger on the purchase, but think about it each time I need
it... didn't think to ask the list what they might recommend for a good
electric horn with some nice decibels that won't take up too much space under
the hood or behind the bumper.

-PJ

> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:21:31 -0700
> From: battmain at yahoo.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
>
> I haven't found an air horn that can top hornblasters yet. A little pricey,
> but the ebay clone I got is no match. On youtube, search for hornblasters
and
> while some videos the folks are having fun or being stupid depending on
your
> perspective, that's the type of attention my next truck will have when a
horn
> is needed. I'm contemplating adding a timer to the regular horn, that will
> activate the horn blasters when needed for those long winded horn moments.
> <bg>
>
> Imobilizers are a dime a dozen and an you just need a relay some wire
> and some soldering skills. Many different ideas on the web, from magnetic
> switches to activate the relay to other switches inside activating the
relay.
> Regards,
> Brian
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Tim
> <tputland at charter.net>
> >To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> >Sent: Wednesday, June
> 13, 2012 4:08 PM
> >Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
> >
> >I
> would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).
> >
> >I would also
> like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical
> >system as an
> anti-theft device.
> >
> >Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!
> >
> >Thanks!!
> >(snip)

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Jun 14 08:58:51 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:58:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions - non-air horn
 suggestions
Message-ID: <4949c943.338e35.137eb8108a3.Webtop.44@charter.net>

i have more than enough room for what ever I install...this truck is 
huge. I guess I really don't need an actual air horn, but what ever I 
end up with needs to be pretty loud for a few reasons, not hte least of 
which is the same "way too many idiots in the passing lane in my area" 
that PJ mentions.

tim


On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:34 AM, PJ McGarvey wrote:

> I did some research awhile back on a good non-air horn for my left 
> lane
> monster (turbocharged 85 Golf) since thre are way too many idiots in 
> the
> passing lane in my area.  I had narrowed it down to a few, one of 
> which was an
> "Italian style" from Griot's Garage which had a unique sound and was 
> louder
> than normal - all the saved URLs I have from my research are at 
> home...
>
> I plan to wire it to a separate switch on the dash for certain 
> occasions.  I
> never pulled the trigger on the purchase, but think about it each time 
> I need
> it... didn't think to ask the list what they might recommend for a 
> good
> electric horn with some nice decibels that won't take up too much 
> space under
> the hood or behind the bumper.
>
> -PJ
>
>> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:21:31 -0700
>> From: battmain at yahoo.com
>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
>>
>> I haven't found an air horn that can top hornblasters yet. A little 
>> pricey,
>> but the ebay clone I got is no match. On youtube, search for 
>> hornblasters
> and
>> while some videos the folks are having fun or being stupid depending 
>> on
> your
>> perspective, that's the type of attention my next truck will have 
>> when a
> horn
>> is needed. I'm contemplating adding a timer to the regular horn, that 
>> will
>> activate the horn blasters when needed for those long winded horn 
>> moments.
>> <bg>
>>
>> Imobilizers are a dime a dozen and an you just need a relay some wire
>> and some soldering skills. Many different ideas on the web, from 
>> magnetic
>> switches to activate the relay to other switches inside activating 
>> the
> relay.
>> Regards,
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Tim
>> <tputland at charter.net>
>>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June
>> 13, 2012 4:08 PM
>>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Couple aftermarket car questions
>>>
>>> I
>> would like to put an air horn in my truck (under the hood).
>>>
>>> I would also
>> like to put some sort of immobilizer in the electrical
>>> system as an
>> anti-theft device.
>>>
>>> Input of any variety would be greatly appreciated!
>>>
>>> Thanks!!
>>> (snip)
> _______________________________________________

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Jun 15 06:21:04 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil vent mess
Message-ID: <53adf76b.3447c4.137f016efad.Webtop.44@charter.net>

I have a 71 Jeep Gladiator with less than 5000 miles on an the stock AMC 
360 V8. There is one of those small little breather filters attached to 
the fill tube cap. The vapors coming out of this filter are coating the 
inside of the engine compartment.

Because I am still learning and have not yet learned about this type of 
situation, what can I do about this please?

Thanks!
tim

From bspidell at comcast.net  Fri Jun 15 06:30:35 2012
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:30:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil vent mess
In-Reply-To: <53adf76b.3447c4.137f016efad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <53adf76b.3447c4.137f016efad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4FDB2AEB.4060308@comcast.net>

Not familiar with this particular engine, but if the engine has a PCV valve the 'breather filter' is likely the fresh 
air input for the PCV system.  Check the PCV valve--if there is one--it should 'rattle' freely; if not, you can try 
cleaning it out but it's better to just replace them.  Check the hoses to/from the PCV valve for cracks or leaks.

If no PCV valve it's likely you have excessive blow-by.  At 5,000 miles, the rings may not have fully seated (and may 
never, if the machine work and/or break-in wasn't done correctly).  How's the compression?

Make sure the oil level isn't too high.

Bob


On 6/15/2012 5:21 AM, Tim wrote:
> I have a 71 Jeep Gladiator with less than 5000 miles on an the stock AMC
> 360 V8. There is one of those small little breather filters attached to
> the fill tube cap. The vapors coming out of this filter are coating the
> inside of the engine compartment.
>
> Because I am still learning and have not yet learned about this type of
> situation, what can I do about this please?
>
> Thanks!
> tim
>
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Fri Jun 15 06:36:18 2012
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:36:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil vent mess
In-Reply-To: <53adf76b.3447c4.137f016efad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <53adf76b.3447c4.137f016efad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAMHq6ZwyJHCMyYGSkzMF13k-R3hCb7p0_y7D-mq--rp1KRAg2Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'd first check that your PCV valve is working.  Sounds like your crankcase
is venting out the filter when it should be sucking fresh air in there.  If
your PCV valve is stuck closed (or hose collapsed or something otherwise
blocking PCV flow) that would cause the crankcase fumes to find another way
out - through the filter.

Other option is you've got excessive blow by that's overwhelming the PCV
system.  That would seem unlikely on an engine with 5000 miles, unless
you've got stuck piston rings or something else major wrong causing lots of
combustion gas to get in the crankcase.

Ben.....

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> I have a 71 Jeep Gladiator with less than 5000 miles on an the stock AMC
> 360 V8. There is one of those small little breather filters attached to
> the fill tube cap. The vapors coming out of this filter are coating the
> inside of the engine compartment.
>
> Because I am still learning and have not yet learned about this type of
> situation, what can I do about this please?
>
> Thanks!
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jun 15 09:01:02 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:01:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions
Message-ID: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>

List,

I have an 8' roof overhang on my shop building that is starting to bow 
from the load. It is supported by a 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam across two 
posts, 14' apart. The roof is standard 7/16 ply with one layer of 
shingles on it; the framing is 2x4. The beam that is in there now is a 
double 2x6 with a plywood filler to bring it out to 3-1/2". I can grab 
the center of the beam and move it up and down over one inch. The 
existing beam is standard yellow pine and is less than a year old. I 
know the rule of thumb is 1/2" if beam height for every foot of span, so 
this beam is too small for the 14' span.

The problem is that I can't put in a taller beam because of other 
clearances, so I will have to go to a different type of beam that will 
still be 5-1/2" tall by 3-1/12" thick. I am considering an LVL 
(laminated beam) - $100, steel Channel (8.5 lbs/ft.) - $230, but  I 
would like to keep the price down.

We are located in central Texas, so snow load is not a consideration. We 
do get fairly high winds here, but nothing that has caused the overhang 
to lift off or collapse.

I have not been able to find any information on sandwiching a thin piece 
of  steel between the 2x4's to stiffen it. Anyone have any experience 
with this kind of beam? I figure that if the steel plate is kept flat it 
should have pretty good resistance to bending.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Peace,
Pat

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jun 15 09:07:25 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:07:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9VNadoNQuROepJG=U9+6OLyWG0Cxke9shJVDA3zoqXqWg@mail.gmail.com>

How about two strips of 3-1/2" wide steel: one across the top, and one
across the bottom?

Doug

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:

> List,
>
> I have an 8' roof overhang on my shop building that is starting to bow
> from the load. It is supported by a 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam across two
> posts, 14' apart. The roof is standard 7/16 ply with one layer of shingles
> on it; the framing is 2x4. The beam that is in there now is a double 2x6
> with a plywood filler to bring it out to 3-1/2". I can grab the center of
> the beam and move it up and down over one inch. The existing beam is
> standard yellow pine and is less than a year old. I know the rule of thumb
> is 1/2" if beam height for every foot of span, so this beam is too small
> for the 14' span.
>
> The problem is that I can't put in a taller beam because of other
> clearances, so I will have to go to a different type of beam that will
> still be 5-1/2" tall by 3-1/12" thick. I am considering an LVL (laminated
> beam) - $100, steel Channel (8.5 lbs/ft.) - $230, but  I would like to keep
> the price down.
>
> We are located in central Texas, so snow load is not a consideration. We
> do get fairly high winds here, but nothing that has caused the overhang to
> lift off or collapse.
>
> I have not been able to find any information on sandwiching a thin piece
> of  steel between the 2x4's to stiffen it. Anyone have any experience with
> this kind of beam? I figure that if the steel plate is kept flat it should
> have pretty good resistance to bending.

From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 15 09:14:29 2012
From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:14:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <942320515.485632.1339773269762.JavaMail.root@sz0180a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

Pat, 


It is not exactly the same situation, but we recently bought a home (built in 1958) which had an issue with the dining room floor and ceiling sagging. (Yes, we had an engineer check it before buying.) To fix the floor, our contractor removed a beam very much like the one you described (but using 2x10s) and replaced it with a new beam made of two 2x10s sandwiched between 3/8 steel. So we have a 4-layer beam that is steel-2x10-2x10-steel. It is very solid and completely solved the sagging problem. Of course, it is in the basement and not exposed to weather so you may have issues we do not need to worry about. I think he went with two layers of 3/8 steel rather than one of 3/4 for both cost and because the 3/8 was easier to carry down stairs. I'm not an engineer or a contractor, but I don't see why a single layer of 3/4 steel would not work just as well. 


Tom 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Horne" <pat at hornesystemstx.com> 
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 11:01:02 AM 
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions 

List, 

I have an 8' roof overhang on my shop building that is starting to bow 
from the load. It is supported by a 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam across two 
posts, 14' apart. The roof is standard 7/16 ply with one layer of 
shingles on it; the framing is 2x4. The beam that is in there now is a 
double 2x6 with a plywood filler to bring it out to 3-1/2". I can grab 
the center of the beam and move it up and down over one inch. The 
existing beam is standard yellow pine and is less than a year old. I 
know the rule of thumb is 1/2" if beam height for every foot of span, so 
this beam is too small for the 14' span. 

The problem is that I can't put in a taller beam because of other 
clearances, so I will have to go to a different type of beam that will 
still be 5-1/2" tall by 3-1/12" thick. I am considering an LVL 
(laminated beam) - $100, steel Channel (8.5 lbs/ft.) - $230, but I 
would like to keep the price down. 

We are located in central Texas, so snow load is not a consideration. We 
do get fairly high winds here, but nothing that has caused the overhang 
to lift off or collapse. 

I have not been able to find any information on sandwiching a thin piece 
of steel between the 2x4's to stiffen it. Anyone have any experience 
with this kind of beam? I figure that if the steel plate is kept flat it 
should have pretty good resistance to bending. 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance. 

Peace, 
Pat 

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 
www.hornesystemstx.com 
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- 
_______________________________________________ 

Shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html 
Suggested annual donation $12.96 
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive 
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums 
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net 

From fortee9er at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 15 11:41:20 2012
From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:41:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Amateur Body Work
Message-ID: <1339782080.52360.YahooMailNeo@web125604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

This past year I got the great idea to buy salvage vehicles and repair them.
For my first attempt I got a full sized domestic sedan that needed a front
bumper, grille, and one headlight assembly. Easy enough, I had done this
before and I got the car for 25% of "market value". Great I thought so I did
it again. This time I bought a German luxury coupe with front end damage. No
real problem here that money can't fix. The damage is all repairable by
bolting in good used parts except that anything for the Silver Star cars is at
4X what you pay for a more mundane car. So I've put this project on the back
burner until I can devote more time to searching for junk yards that don't
hold Mercedes is such high steem. And now we get to the real point of this
post. My last purchase was a 2002 Ford F150 4 door cab pick up truck. The
truck had been hit on the driver's side rear door and cab corner so that the
rear door needs to be replaced and I fear that the cab
 corner will need to be cut out and a donor piece welded in.
I want to remove
the rear door and try to pull the damaged cab corner as much as possible
before going to a body shop. I am trying to keep costs down as much as
possible and stay within a budget before it becomes uneconomical.
I would 
appreciate any comments, suggesttions and perhaps links to websites on body
repair.
Thank You
Jorge 

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Fri Jun 15 11:52:45 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:52:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB766D.3080905@comcast.net>

On 6/15/2012 11:01 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> List,
>
> I have an 8' roof overhang on my shop building that is starting to bow 
> from the load. It is supported by a 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam across two 
> posts, 14' apart. The roof is standard 7/16 ply with one layer of 
> shingles on it; the framing is 2x4. The beam that is in there now is a 
> double 2x6 with a plywood filler to bring it out to 3-1/2". I can grab 
> the center of the beam and move it up and down over one inch. The 
> existing beam is standard yellow pine and is less than a year old. I 
> know the rule of thumb is 1/2" if beam height for every foot of span, 
> so this beam is too small for the 14' span.
>
> The problem is that I can't put in a taller beam because of other 
> clearances, so I will have to go to a different type of beam that will 
> still be 5-1/2" tall by 3-1/12" thick. I am considering an LVL 
> (laminated beam) - $100, steel Channel (8.5 lbs/ft.) - $230, but  I 
> would like to keep the price down.
>
> We are located in central Texas, so snow load is not a consideration. 
> We do get fairly high winds here, but nothing that has caused the 
> overhang to lift off or collapse.
>
> I have not been able to find any information on sandwiching a thin 
> piece of  steel between the 2x4's to stiffen it. Anyone have any 
> experience with this kind of beam? I figure that if the steel plate is 
> kept flat it should have pretty good resistance to bending.
>
> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Ok, this won't pass any inspection but...

You could make a similar beam out of 2x8 (or 2x10) and notch around the 
clearance issues.  I'm assuming where it's sagging there aren't any 
clearance issues and this is where the beam needs to be the stiffest.

Peter T.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 15 11:59:47 2012
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:59:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB7813.6060602@earthlink.net>

Pat - I just bought 35 LVLs for a cantilevered balcony repair and 
learned that it past to call around.  My first quote was $2500 plus 
delivery in 7-10 days.  I ended getting them for $1400 delivered in 2 
days.   I am in the Los Angeles area, so had a number of choices.

There are different specs.  The balcony beams were all 2.0E versions of 
a 2x8.  A header reinforcement was a 25' long 1.3E 2x12.  The products I 
used are at
http://roseburg.com/cgi-bin/s-mart.pl?command=showcatsub&sub=180_10
(LVLs, not I-joists)  Good quality and easy to work with.  I used 3" SDS 
screws staggered every 8 inches per the engineer.

Click the literature link on the right side of the page and you can look 
more details.

I also paid for 2 hours of structural engineering time for my initial 
comfort, but since I also pulled a permit with the city, I had to do it 
anyway.  It might be worth an hour to get a proper calculation by a 
professional.  That way you know you are doing it right.

Brian


On 6/15/2012 8:01 AM, Pat Horne wrote:
> List,
>
> I have an 8' roof overhang on my shop building that is starting to bow 
> from the load. It is supported by a 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam across two 
> posts, 14' apart. The roof is standard 7/16 ply with one layer of 
> shingles on it; the framing is 2x4. The beam that is in there now is a 
> double 2x6 with a plywood filler to bring it out to 3-1/2". I can grab 
> the center of the beam and move it up and down over one inch. The 
> existing beam is standard yellow pine and is less than a year old. I 
> know the rule of thumb is 1/2" if beam height for every foot of span, 
> so this beam is too small for the 14' span.
>
> The problem is that I can't put in a taller beam because of other 
> clearances, so I will have to go to a different type of beam that will 
> still be 5-1/2" tall by 3-1/12" thick. I am considering an LVL 
> (laminated beam) - $100, steel Channel (8.5 lbs/ft.) - $230, but  I 
> would like to keep the price down.
>
> We are located in central Texas, so snow load is not a consideration. 
> We do get fairly high winds here, but nothing that has caused the 
> overhang to lift off or collapse.
>
> I have not been able to find any information on sandwiching a thin 
> piece of  steel between the 2x4's to stiffen it. Anyone have any 
> experience with this kind of beam? I figure that if the steel plate is 
> kept flat it should have pretty good resistance to bending.
>
> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Peace,
> Pat

From bspidell at comcast.net  Fri Jun 15 13:03:22 2012
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:03:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Amateur Body Work
In-Reply-To: <1339782080.52360.YahooMailNeo@web125604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1430921584.360234.1339787002735.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Google 'do-it-yourself autobody work' or similar and you'll have reading material for the next century. 

There are usually three ways to repair a bashed-in panel: 
1) cut and replace 
2) pull out with a slide hammer puller 
3) use a stud welder 

All will probably require at least some filler ('bondo'). 

Autobody work is a craft and can take years to master, but with practice you can do most things yourself. You'll have to make an initial investment in tools, like body hammers and dollys, puller or stud gun and you'll wish you had a MIG welder--and knew how to use it--if you don't already. Power tools--usually compressed air-powered--are essential; you'll want a die grinder and a cutoff wheel at the least. 

Then comes painting, which is truly an art. The good thing is, at least here in the States, low-cost paint guns--and other tools for that matter--are available from places like Harbor Freight and they are good enough quality to at least get you started. 

One of the best pieces of literature I've perused is Duffy's: http://www.amazon.com/Tech-Manual-Duffys-Repair-Technology/dp/1418073547 

Good luck and have fun. 

Bob 


-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

----- Original Message -----


This past year I got the great idea to buy salvage vehicles and repair them. 
For my first attempt I got a full sized domestic sedan that needed a front 
bumper, grille, and one headlight assembly. Easy enough, I had done this 
before and I got the car for 25% of "market value". Great I thought so I did 
it again. This time I bought a German luxury coupe with front end damage. No 
real problem here that money can't fix. The damage is all repairable by 
bolting in good used parts except that anything for the Silver Star cars is at 
4X what you pay for a more mundane car. So I've put this project on the back 
burner until I can devote more time to searching for junk yards that don't 
hold Mercedes is such high steem. And now we get to the real point of this 
post. My last purchase was a 2002 Ford F150 4 door cab pick up truck. The 
truck had been hit on the driver's side rear door and cab corner so that the 
rear door needs to be replaced and I fear that the cab 
corner will need to be cut out and a donor piece welded in. 
I want to remove 
the rear door and try to pull the damaged cab corner as much as possible 
before going to a body shop. I am trying to keep costs down as much as 
possible and stay within a budget before it becomes uneconomical. 
I would 
appreciate any comments, suggesttions and perhaps links to websites on body 
repair. 
Thank You 
Jorge 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 15 15:15:46 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:15:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil vent mess
In-Reply-To: <CAMHq6ZwyJHCMyYGSkzMF13k-R3hCb7p0_y7D-mq--rp1KRAg2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <53adf76b.3447c4.137f016efad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<CAMHq6ZwyJHCMyYGSkzMF13k-R3hCb7p0_y7D-mq--rp1KRAg2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022101cd4b3c$086d8a90$19489fb0$@rr.com>

> Other option is you've got excessive blow by that's overwhelming the
> PCV
> system.  That would seem unlikely on an engine with 5000 miles, unless
> you've got stuck piston rings or something else major wrong causing
> lots of
> combustion gas to get in the crankcase.

I agree entirely, except about the likelihood of having "excess" blowby.
Those old PCV designs didn't allow for very much, and it would be very easy
IMO for a 40 year old motor to have stuck rings or rusty cylinder walls, no
matter how few miles it has been driven.  It is also normal for them to flow
backwards through the PCV intake, when the throttle is wide open (no
manifold vacuum to pull anything through the PCV valve).

My 65 Olds got to be pretty well worn towards the end of its life.  The
engine still ran fine, but if you held the throttle open for very long, it
would blow literally quarts of oil out the PCV intake.  From a standing
start with a full crankcase, it would be low on oil by the time it got to
100 mph.

-- Randall 

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Jun 15 16:54:56 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:54:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil vent mess
Message-ID: <5fb0d7e0.2b737f.137f25b435c.Webtop.48@charter.net>

Supposed to be a fresh over haul on the engine. I will check the pcv 
valve. Hope it is not rings that are not seated. And pray that if they 
are not yet seated that they will seat.

Thanks
tim


On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Randall wrote:

>> Other option is you've got excessive blow by that's overwhelming the
>> PCV
>> system.  That would seem unlikely on an engine with 5000 miles, 
>> unless
>> you've got stuck piston rings or something else major wrong causing
>> lots of
>> combustion gas to get in the crankcase.
>
> I agree entirely, except about the likelihood of having "excess" 
> blowby.
> Those old PCV designs didn't allow for very much, and it would be very 
> easy
> IMO for a 40 year old motor to have stuck rings or rusty cylinder 
> walls, no
> matter how few miles it has been driven.  It is also normal for them 
> to flow
> backwards through the PCV intake, when the throttle is wide open (no
> manifold vacuum to pull anything through the PCV valve).
>
> My 65 Olds got to be pretty well worn towards the end of its life. 
> The
> engine still ran fine, but if you held the throttle open for very 
> long, it
> would blow literally quarts of oil out the PCV intake.  From a 
> standing
> start with a full crankcase, it would be low on oil by the time it got 
> to
> 100 mph.
>
> -- Randall _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Jun 15 17:36:19 2012
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:36:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Amateur Body Work
In-Reply-To: <1339782080.52360.YahooMailNeo@web125604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
  >
References: <1339782080.52360.YahooMailNeo@web125604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120615192424.04c66358@cox.net>

At 01:41 PM 6/15/2012, Jorge Garcia wrote:

 >I want to remove the rear door and try to pull the damaged cab corner as
 >much as possible before going to a body shop. I am trying to keep costs down
 >as much as possible and stay within a budget before it becomes uneconomical.
 >I would  appreciate any comments, suggesttions and perhaps links to websites
 >on body repair.

Jorge,

I have to agree with Bob!   Body work is black magic.

Don't know where you're located, but you might want to look for a local VoTech
or community college and see if they have some body shop classes.  You might
be able to either enroll in the class and work on your truck as a 
project, or see
if the school will take your truck for the students to learn on.

You might also want to see if the school offers a welding class.  I took a MIG
welding class at the local community college.  Definately worth the 
price.  You'll
go through scrap metal, and welding consumables (gas, and wire) that is worth
more than the class costs!  Most schools offer seperate classes for Oxy, arc,
MIG, and TIG.

As Bob says google body work, and you'll find a ton.  There's a lot of stuff on
Youtube also.  However, a lot of the stuff on youtube leaves a lot to 
be desired.
Again as Bob said, body work is an art that you really need to feel, and have
someone show you the ropes.  I've had a fellow over here working on one of my
cars and say to me, "see that? feel that?"  And no I don't see or feel that.


I've got some simple body work articles on my Morgan web page:
http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/#BODY

But I think you'll need more that what I've got.

One tool Bob didn't mention is a "port-a-power":
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-44899.html

Good luck!!!!


John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Jun 15 19:29:07 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:29:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <DED21BD7F319491E8F2BFA6EEA985EDE@EntCentPC>

Pat,

Two words - Flitch Plate (check out "flitch beam" too).

What you want to do is add a steel flat with the "flat" in the direction of
the load, basically on edge, on the 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam.  Screws or
through bolting would work.  You shouldn't need much more than an 1/8 inch
flat, on edge a couple of inches wide, but you would need someone who could
make at least a rudimentary calculation for you.  Jack up the center of the
beam to a smidge beyond level and attach the plate.

I took out two walls in a corner room, 14 feet between supports and added a
3 inch x 1/8 inch flat, on edge on each side and had a 4x safety factor, but
the steel was essentially free, so I went oversized.

Jack
Disclaimer - I'm a Mechanical Engineer, not a Civil and am not licensed to
provide Structural Advice, so this is simply guidance, so you can seek out
the proper professional to resolve your issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Pat Horne
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:01 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions

List,

I have an 8' roof overhang on my shop building that is starting to bow 
from the load. It is supported by a 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam across two 
posts, 14' apart. The roof is standard 7/16 ply with one layer of 
shingles on it; the framing is 2x4. The beam that is in there now is a 
double 2x6 with a plywood filler to bring it out to 3-1/2". I can grab 
the center of the beam and move it up and down over one inch. The 
existing beam is standard yellow pine and is less than a year old. I 
know the rule of thumb is 1/2" if beam height for every foot of span, so 
this beam is too small for the 14' span.

The problem is that I can't put in a taller beam because of other 
clearances, so I will have to go to a different type of beam that will 
still be 5-1/2" tall by 3-1/12" thick. I am considering an LVL 
(laminated beam) - $100, steel Channel (8.5 lbs/ft.) - $230, but  I 
would like to keep the price down.

We are located in central Texas, so snow load is not a consideration. We 
do get fairly high winds here, but nothing that has caused the overhang 
to lift off or collapse.

I have not been able to find any information on sandwiching a thin piece 
of  steel between the 2x4's to stiffen it. Anyone have any experience 
with this kind of beam? I figure that if the steel plate is kept flat it 
should have pretty good resistance to bending.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Peace,
Pat

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From fortee9er at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 15 19:43:41 2012
From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:43:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Amateur body work
Message-ID: <1339811021.81030.YahooMailNeo@web125604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Bob & John,
About 15 years ago I took about 3 semester of body shop classes. I
even almost painted a car. I did  all the prep work but my teacher shot the
paint. But I agree with both of you completely, body work is an art that takes
years to master. I also have at my do disposal a porta-power, a MIG welder, a
plasma cutter, and assorted body hammers and dollies. What I don't have is the
the skill to use these tools proficientle. I bought the truck based on the
pictures the auction house had posted. The pictures of the truck did not show
the worst  damage. My fault, I bought sight un seen just the pictures. I am in
the process of obtaining the required body parts ( rear d/s door, fiberglass
quarter panel, and assorted minor parts). What I want to do is to be able to
open the driver's door (the rear door is deformed and keeps the front door
from opening) and somehow bang the cab corner damage before taking it to
someone who will cut the affected area and graft
 new matal from a donor (that has yet to be found). I wanted to find a website
with lots of pictures that hopefully show someone fixing similar damage to a
pick up truck.
Thank you for your comments and suggestions.
Jorge

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jun 17 16:06:08 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:06:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for wooden beam suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4FDB4E2E.8030505@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4FDE54D0.4020401@hornesystemstx.com>

Thanks to all for the suggestions, I knew I could count on y'all!!

The Flitch Plate was the structure I was looking for, it is cheaper than 
either steel or LVL beams and easier to get hold of.

Thanks again for your help!

Peace,
Pat
Thusly spake Pat Horne, On 6/15/2012 10:01 AM:
> List,
>
> I have an 8' roof overhang on my shop building that is starting to bow 
> from the load. It is supported by a 5-1/2"x3-1/2" wood beam across two 
> posts, 14' apart. The roof is standard 7/16 ply with one layer of 
> shingles on it; the framing is 2x4. The beam that is in there now is a 
> double 2x6 with a plywood filler to bring it out to 3-1/2". I can grab 
> the center of the beam and move it up and down over one inch. The 
> existing beam is standard yellow pine and is less than a year old. I 
> know the rule of thumb is 1/2" if beam height for every foot of span, 
> so this beam is too small for the 14' span.
>
> The problem is that I can't put in a taller beam because of other 
> clearances, so I will have to go to a different type of beam that will 
> still be 5-1/2" tall by 3-1/12" thick. I am considering an LVL 
> (laminated beam) - $100, steel Channel (8.5 lbs/ft.) - $230, but  I 
> would like to keep the price down.
>
> We are located in central Texas, so snow load is not a consideration. 
> We do get fairly high winds here, but nothing that has caused the 
> overhang to lift off or collapse.
>
> I have not been able to find any information on sandwiching a thin 
> piece of  steel between the 2x4's to stiffen it. Anyone have any 
> experience with this kind of beam? I figure that if the steel plate is 
> kept flat it should have pretty good resistance to bending.
>
> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jun 19 16:25:20 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:25:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - California destinations
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9WQOvjvOsUdnKR0CcHfuShHmgzYsh4PzvHjU6b4pT_Lrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001701cd3442$63152b30$293f8190$@ameritech.net>
	<4297643A-9AAC-4794-B5CC-C20C86EDADC6@astound.net>
	<4FBA9DAD.8050603@lne.com>
	<000301cd425b$21328ab0$6397a010$@ameritech.net>
	<CAOtbU9WQOvjvOsUdnKR0CcHfuShHmgzYsh4PzvHjU6b4pT_Lrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006801cd4e6a$6a396a60$3eac3f20$@ameritech.net>

Thanks to all.  We made it back home, and actually did accomplish all we
hoped for and more.  Weather is wonderful - we just couldn't believe how
nice it is.  California 1 is incredibly beautiful - we drove about 1500
miles from San Diego to Calistoga and back to Oakland, and took more than
1400 pictures in just over 11 days.  Overall, a great trip.  Thanks again
for all the great recommendations!

Karl

From jb at lerch.org  Wed Jun 20 13:06:23 2012
From: jb at lerch.org (Justin Bedard)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:06:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Age of furnace
In-Reply-To: <CAMXxUQrDnsCQ7eme-fg2ViqdDoR7txmtBxc7QU2KUHq_C1k7OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMXxUQrDnsCQ7eme-fg2ViqdDoR7txmtBxc7QU2KUHq_C1k7OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMXxUQqC_aBmN=LNATXea6DBgFEdOF+xK8vy78Jwa+zYLh-jow@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone here know how to determine the age of a Metzger oil burning
furnace?

P/N CLB-104-DDR
S/N 003927391

Thanks!
Justin

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jun 20 15:20:49 2012
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:20:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>

I'm working on a project and using a 6"x4"x2"  "plastic" 
project/experimenters box from Radio Shack.  I'm trying to install 
some mini DB9 connectors in the ends of the box.

<shop talk content>
I go down into my SHOP, and clamp the box in the vise.
<end shop talk content>

After I scribe when the connector should go I've tried 2 methods for 
making the hole:

1. The first was to drill a hole to insert a saw into,  and then use 
a coping saw to cut it the hole.  This was very time consuming and 
tough on the box.  In fact I broke several.

2. The current method is to use a circular saw blade on my dremil 
tool, similar to:
http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-00931176000P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36

     Once the hole is rough cut, I use a triangular file to clean it 
up and size the hole so the DB9 connector fits.

I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of how to do this?

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 15:24:25 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:24:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <7801A6FE-A959-4301-8789-3FA8247CD3BD@gmail.com>

Router, or router like bit on dremel?

On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:20 PM, "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> I'm working on a project and using a 6"x4"x2"  "plastic"
project/experimenters box from Radio Shack.  I'm trying to install some mini
DB9 connectors in the ends of the box.
>
> <shop talk content>
> I go down into my SHOP, and clamp the box in the vise.
> <end shop talk content>
>
> After I scribe when the connector should go I've tried 2 methods for making
the hole:
>
> 1. The first was to drill a hole to insert a saw into,  and then use a
coping saw to cut it the hole.  This was very time consuming and tough on the
box.  In fact I broke several.
>
> 2. The current method is to use a circular saw blade on my dremil tool,
similar to:
>
http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-0093117600
0P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36
>
>    Once the hole is rough cut, I use a triangular file to clean it up and
size the hole so the DB9 connector fits.
>
> I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of how to do this?
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                       65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>
> From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
>     e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
>     In God We Trust
>     Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
>                  oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 15:33:13 2012
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:33:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <7801A6FE-A959-4301-8789-3FA8247CD3BD@gmail.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
	<7801A6FE-A959-4301-8789-3FA8247CD3BD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP85M91BdpyEFFLfD0U9fsfJxh8vUV+j=bDaEA-5G8Qr=A@mail.gmail.com>

I would think a slow spinning plunge-cutting bit (like one would use for
drywall hole cutting) would make a pretty clean hole without melting the
plastic.

Perhaps you can find a circular version? :)

-Peter

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:24 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Router, or router like bit on dremel?
>
> On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:20 PM, "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm working on a project and using a 6"x4"x2"  "plastic"
> project/experimenters box from Radio Shack.  I'm trying to install some
> mini
> DB9 connectors in the ends of the box.
> >
> > <shop talk content>
> > I go down into my SHOP, and clamp the box in the vise.
> > <end shop talk content>
> >
> > After I scribe when the connector should go I've tried 2 methods for
> making
> the hole:
> >
> > 1. The first was to drill a hole to insert a saw into,  and then use a
> coping saw to cut it the hole.  This was very time consuming and tough on
> the
> box.  In fact I broke several.
> >
> > 2. The current method is to use a circular saw blade on my dremil tool,
> similar to:
> >
>
> http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-0093117600
> 0P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36<http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-0093117600%0A0P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36>
> >
> >    Once the hole is rough cut, I use a triangular file to clean it up and
> size the hole so the DB9 connector fits.
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of how to do this?
> >
> > John
> >
> > John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> > Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

From jniolon at att.net  Wed Jun 20 15:38:44 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:38:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <7801A6FE-A959-4301-8789-3FA8247CD3BD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340228324.29354.YahooMailClassic@web181705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

..I believe Greenlee (or someone) makes a db9 rectangular punch... check some
of the catalogs.  but, I think they are expensive... how bout using a premade
db9 punch out plate from a p.c. and incorporate it into the box ???

john

...telling some people to "be yourself" is about the worstadvice you could
give them

--- On Wed, 6/20/12, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

From: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
To: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
Cc: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 9:24 PM

Router, or router like bit on dremel?

On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:20 PM, "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> I'm working on a project and using a 6"x4"x2"  "plastic"
project/experimenters box from Radio Shack.  I'm trying to install some mini
DB9 connectors in the ends of the box.
>
> <shop talk content>
> I go down into my SHOP, and clamp the box in the vise.
> <end shop talk content>
>
> After I scribe when the connector should go I've tried 2 methods for making
the hole:
>
> 1. The first was to drill a hole to insert a saw into,  and then use a
coping saw to cut it the hole.  This was very time consuming and tough on the
box.  In fact I broke several.
>
> 2. The current method is to use a circular saw blade on my dremil tool,
similar to:
>
http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-0093117600
0P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36
>
>    Once the hole is rough cut, I use a triangular file to clean it up and
size the hole so the DB9 connector fits.
>
> I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of how to do this?
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                       65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>
> From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
>     e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
>     In God We Trust
>     Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
>                  oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun 20 15:40:18 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:40:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <05b701cd4f2d$49a49d60$dcedd820$@rr.com>

> 2. The current method is to use a circular saw blade on my dremil
> tool, similar to:
> http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-
> 00931176000P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36

Not sure if it would be any better, but I might try drilling holes at the
corners first.  That would reduce the amount of cleanup with the file.

I find it really tough to work to a line with a Dremel & router bit (or the
"roto-zip" bit that comes with the kit).  You might be able to put together
a quickie form though, from some lengths of 1x2 or whatever.

-- Randall 

From brabel at comcast.net  Wed Jun 20 16:25:41 2012
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:25:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B4A823AD-1023-4BF5-A2C1-2291FDC20FC5@comcast.net>

Depending on the thickness of the plastic, you might be able to use a nibbling
tool such as this.

<http://www.matcotools.com/catalog/product/F2AV10-807/ADEL-HAND-NIBBLING-TOOL
/>

I've found that the minimum size hole to drill for this tool is 1/4 inch, and
you need to disassemble the tool and reassemble it in the hole. A larger
starting hole is easier.

I've used this tool often over the years, and it has proved invaluable.

- Bill Rabel
  Anacortes

On Jun 20, 2012, at 2:20 PM, "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> I'm working on a project and using a 6"x4"x2"  "plastic"
project/experimenters box from Radio Shack.  I'm trying to install some mini
DB9 connectors in the ends of the box

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 20 19:08:39 2012
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:08:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <1340228324.29354.YahooMailClassic@web181705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <7801A6FE-A959-4301-8789-3FA8247CD3BD@gmail.com>,
	<1340228324.29354.YahooMailClassic@web181705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W38998B24657C0579BDA37EE1FD0@phx.gbl>

+1 on the punch.  That is about the only way I've found to make a clean hole.
They are expensive!

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

 > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:38:44 -0700
> From: jniolon at att.net
> To: dmscheidt at gmail.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
>
> ..I believe Greenlee (or someone) makes a db9 rectangular punch... check
some
> of the catalogs.  but, I think they are expensive... how bout using a
premade
> db9 punch out plate from a p.c. and incorporate it into the box ???
>
> john
>
> ...telling some people to "be yourself" is about the worstadvice you could
> give them
>
> --- On Wed, 6/20/12, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
> To: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> Cc: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 9:24 PM
>
> Router, or router like bit on dremel?
>
> On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:20 PM, "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm working on a project and using a 6"x4"x2"  "plastic"
> project/experimenters box from Radio Shack.  I'm trying to install some
mini
> DB9 connectors in the ends of the box.
> >
> > <shop talk content>
> > I go down into my SHOP, and clamp the box in the vise.
> > <end shop talk content>
> >
> > After I scribe when the connector should go I've tried 2 methods for
making
> the hole:
> >
> > 1. The first was to drill a hole to insert a saw into,  and then use a
> coping saw to cut it the hole.  This was very time consuming and tough on
the
> box.  In fact I broke several.
> >
> > 2. The current method is to use a circular saw blade on my dremil tool,
> similar to:
> >
>
http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-0093117600
> 0P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36
> >
> >    Once the hole is rough cut, I use a triangular file to clean it up and
> size the hole so the DB9 connector fits.
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of how to do this?
> >
> > John
> >
> > John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> > Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229
> >
> >          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
> >     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
> >                       65 Rambler Classic
> >
> > Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> > Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
> >
> > If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> >
> > From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
> >     e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
> >     In God We Trust
> >     Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
> >                  oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 20 23:00:50 2012
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:00:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
Message-ID: <3895042.1340254850693.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

John - I've used several methods to make cutouts in boxes.  One is the nibbling tool already mentioned.  I have

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12345949 (or similar from about 1990) and it works well for some plastic boxes and metal faceplates.  Test it on one of your broken boxes.  

You can also use a soldering iron to melt a hole.  The leftover plastic snapped off then I used a file to smooth it.  You will need to re-tin the tip to actually solder again if you don't have an old tip.  Do this with good ventilation as it will stink.

Depending on what you are doing, you can also look for a box with a metal plate at the end or even an all metal box like

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062217

I will also second the post about predrilling the corners.  To make it easier, go to your shop and put a 2x2 or similar in your vice and use it to support the box.  That way, you have the back of the box supported as you drill.

A final thought is to put the connector flange on the outside of the box, so you can't see that the hole is uneven.

Brian - with fond memories of when I had time for fun projects


-----Original Message-----
>From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
>Sent: Jun 20, 2012 2:20 PM
>To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
>
>I'm working on a project and using a 6"x4"x2"  "plastic" 
>project/experimenters box from Radio Shack.  I'm trying to install 
>some mini DB9 connectors in the ends of the box.
>
><shop talk content>
>I go down into my SHOP, and clamp the box in the vise.
><end shop talk content>
>
>After I scribe when the connector should go I've tried 2 methods for 
>making the hole:
>
>1. The first was to drill a hole to insert a saw into,  and then use 
>a coping saw to cut it the hole.  This was very time consuming and 
>tough on the box.  In fact I broke several.
>
>2. The current method is to use a circular saw blade on my dremil 
>tool, similar to:
>http://www.sears.com/gyros-82-10715-saw-blade-w-mandrel-set-fine/p-00931176000P?prdNo=11&blockNo=36&blockType=G36
>
>     Once the hole is rough cut, I use a triangular file to clean it 
>up and size the hole so the DB9 connector fits.
>
>I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of how to do this?
>
>John
>
>John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
>Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
>Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
>Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
>If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
>If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>
> From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
>      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
>      In God We Trust
>      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
>                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jun 21 08:44:00 2012
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:44:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120621104340.04c680d0@cox.net>

Thanks to all that have answered.  It appears that I need to go 
shopping for a cutting tool for a rotozip and use that in my dremil tool.

I like the idea of the punches, but at $200 - $500 I think that's a 
little more than
I want to spend. :)

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Jun 21 09:01:46 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:01:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20120621104340.04c680d0@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20120621104340.04c680d0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4FE3375A.6040301@comcast.net>

On 6/21/2012 10:44 AM, John T. Blair wrote:
> Thanks to all that have answered.  It appears that I need to go 
> shopping for a cutting tool for a rotozip and use that in my dremil tool.
>
> I like the idea of the punches, but at $200 - $500 I think that's a 
> little more than
> I want to spend. :)
I've used dremel tools before but don't like them as the blades/grinders 
gum up.  From the friction the plastic can melt and stick to the 
blades/grinders.  Not as convenient but you could use wood working 
chisels.  Just make sure there back side has solid support or the 
plastic will crack or bend bend at the corners leaving a discoloration.

Peter T.
>
> John
>
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>
> From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
>      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
>      In God We Trust
>      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting for
>                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Jun 21 10:07:24 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:07:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making a hole
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20120621104340.04c680d0@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20120620171849.04d11be0@cox.net>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20120621104340.04c680d0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <000901cd4fc7$f3342720$d99c7560$@ameritech.net>

To drill the corners and avoid the drill walking and the plastic cracking,
and to also get nice clean holes, get a brad-point bit.  Not at all
expensive and you'll love the way they cut soft materials.  All the big-box
stores carry them in basic fractional sizes.  A slick and common drill bit
that gets scant attention, but they really do a nice job.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Blair
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Making a hole

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Jun 23 08:01:53 2012
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:01:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Fluid
Message-ID: <4FE5CC51.9080006@comcast.net>

On a recent road trip (4K miles in 10 days) in my Austin-Healey 3000 I had a battery spillover problem.  I first noticed 
my arm would itch after I went to retrieve something from the boot (trunk), then saw some fluid near the battery.  When 
I got home I pulled everything--including the gas tank--out of the boot and flushed with baking soda solution to 
neutralize the acid.  I discovered the voltage regulator was overcharging and replaced it.  That problem solved.

Since I'd lost actual battery fluid--concentrated sulfuric acid--I bought some battery acid and topped-up the battery's 
cells.  This got me to thinking; usually, you top up a battery with distilled water.  This is because, presumably, 
you're just replacing the water portion of the acid that evaporates during normal charging and discharging.  I'm 
wondering if a) after topping-up with distilled water a few times would it be a good idea to top up with acid, and b) 
would it be even better to always top up with acid?

I'm thinking maybe yes to "a," but probably no to "b," since I know from my days as a chemistry student that acid 
strength depends on a proper mixture of water and the acid agent (in this case sulfur trioxide).

Thoughts?

Bob

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Sat Jun 23 08:30:43 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:30:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Fluid
In-Reply-To: <4FE5CC51.9080006@comcast.net>
References: <4FE5CC51.9080006@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4FE5D313.5000301@comcast.net>

On 6/23/2012 10:01 AM, Bob Spidell wrote:
> On a recent road trip (4K miles in 10 days) in my Austin-Healey 3000 I 
> had a battery spillover problem.  I first noticed my arm would itch 
> after I went to retrieve something from the boot (trunk), then saw 
> some fluid near the battery.  When I got home I pulled 
> everything--including the gas tank--out of the boot and flushed with 
> baking soda solution to neutralize the acid.  I discovered the voltage 
> regulator was overcharging and replaced it.  That problem solved.
>
> Since I'd lost actual battery fluid--concentrated sulfuric acid--I 
> bought some battery acid and topped-up the battery's cells.  This got 
> me to thinking; usually, you top up a battery with distilled water.  
> This is because, presumably, you're just replacing the water portion 
> of the acid that evaporates during normal charging and discharging.  
> I'm wondering if a) after topping-up with distilled water a few times 
> would it be a good idea to top up with acid, and b) would it be even 
> better to always top up with acid?
>
> I'm thinking maybe yes to "a," but probably no to "b," since I know 
> from my days as a chemistry student that acid strength depends on a 
> proper mixture of water and the acid agent (in this case sulfur 
> trioxide).
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Bob
>

You could just check with a batter hydrometer.  It measures the specific 
gravity of the battery fluid and you would know if you need acid.

Peter T.

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 23 10:10:15 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:10:15 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Fluid
In-Reply-To: <4FE5CC51.9080006@comcast.net>
References: <4FE5CC51.9080006@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <035401cd515a$ad98ef40$0601a8c0@randall>

> I'm 
> wondering if a) after topping-up with distilled water a few 
> times would it be a good idea to top up with acid, and b) 
> would it be even better to always top up with acid?

IMO, no.  Most of the water lost is because of electrolysis due to
overcharging.  Since the electrolysis produces relatively pure hydrogen and
oxygen, the loss is only water.  Very little acid is lost.  And too much
acid is more of a problem then too little.

As Peter suggested, you could measure the concentration with a hydrometer;
but be sure to fully charge the battery first.  The concentration naturally
drops as the battery is discharged (the sulfur ions combine with the lead
and lead oxide plates to produce electricity).  It's probably also best to
run a desulphation cycle first. 

-- Randall  

From jniolon at att.net  Sat Jun 23 10:26:31 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:26:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
Message-ID: <D55200F22A60467FBE0B3B0C994FF981@john5043a2d406>

I need some advise on purchasing a car hauler...  vehicle is a '53 Ford F-100
with a fiberglass front clip and a 460 engine
15' overall length with 111" wheelbase...   approx weight 3600-3800#  with
engine weight (700-800# centered pretty much over front axle..... Tow vehicle
is 2008 suburban 5.3L with weight dist. hitch..

looking at several models and pretty much settled on an 18' steel deck w/wo
dove tail... slide out ramps from the back and other goodies.

I look at the trailers and the forward of axles to back of axles is about a
60/40 ratio and that seems to be the consensus on most trailers...

got to thinking... if I pull my truck on the trailer most of the weight will
be well forward of the axles. guessing my truck will be in the 3600-3800 range
with the 460 and probably 80% of the weight forward of the trailer axles...
that seems a little heavy on the front of the trailer and will put too much
tongue weight out there... look at the sketches below and tell me what you
think..  this is above my paygrade on math

thanks
John



http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/trucksketch.jpg
http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/bigtex.jpg

I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Jun 23 10:32:37 2012
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:32:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Fluid
In-Reply-To: <4FE5D313.5000301@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <664437027.660390.1340469157988.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Good point, Peter. Of course, the battery has to be at full charge to get a good SG reading (and the reading has to be temperature compensated). 

Bob 


-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

----- Original Message -----

On 6/23/2012 10:01 AM, Bob Spidell wrote: 
> On a recent road trip (4K miles in 10 days) in my Austin-Healey 3000 I 
> had a battery spillover problem. I first noticed my arm would itch 
> after I went to retrieve something from the boot (trunk), then saw 
> some fluid near the battery. When I got home I pulled 
> everything--including the gas tank--out of the boot and flushed with 
> baking soda solution to neutralize the acid. I discovered the voltage 
> regulator was overcharging and replaced it. That problem solved. 
> 
> Since I'd lost actual battery fluid--concentrated sulfuric acid--I 
> bought some battery acid and topped-up the battery's cells. This got 
> me to thinking; usually, you top up a battery with distilled water. 
> This is because, presumably, you're just replacing the water portion 
> of the acid that evaporates during normal charging and discharging. 
> I'm wondering if a) after topping-up with distilled water a few times 
> would it be a good idea to top up with acid, and b) would it be even 
> better to always top up with acid? 
> 
> I'm thinking maybe yes to "a," but probably no to "b," since I know 
> from my days as a chemistry student that acid strength depends on a 
> proper mixture of water and the acid agent (in this case sulfur 
> trioxide). 
> 
> Thoughts? 
> 
> Bob 
> 

You could just check with a batter hydrometer. It measures the specific 
gravity of the battery fluid and you would know if you need acid. 

Peter T. 

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Jun 23 10:39:57 2012
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:39:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Fluid
In-Reply-To: <035401cd515a$ad98ef40$0601a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <139357759.660627.1340469597687.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Advice taken. Thanks. 

Bob 


-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com> 
To: "Shop-Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:10:15 AM 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Battery Fluid 

> I'm 
> wondering if a) after topping-up with distilled water a few 
> times would it be a good idea to top up with acid, and b) 
> would it be even better to always top up with acid? 

IMO, no. Most of the water lost is because of electrolysis due to 
overcharging. Since the electrolysis produces relatively pure hydrogen and 
oxygen, the loss is only water. Very little acid is lost. And too much 
acid is more of a problem then too little. 

As Peter suggested, you could measure the concentration with a hydrometer; 
but be sure to fully charge the battery first. The concentration naturally 
drops as the battery is discharged (the sulfur ions combine with the lead 
and lead oxide plates to produce electricity). It's probably also best to 
run a desulphation cycle first. 

-- Randall 

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sat Jun 23 11:12:26 2012
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:12:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
In-Reply-To: <D55200F22A60467FBE0B3B0C994FF981@john5043a2d406>
References: <D55200F22A60467FBE0B3B0C994FF981@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1206231308440.25669@itonami.pair.com>

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012, John Niolon wrote:
> got to thinking... if I pull my truck on the trailer most of the weight will
> be well forward of the axles. guessing my truck will be in the 3600-3800 range
> with the 460 and probably 80% of the weight forward of the trailer axles...
> that seems a little heavy on the front of the trailer and will put too much
> tongue weight out there... look at the sketches below and tell me what you
> think..  this is above my paygrade on math

    Is there a good reason you can't back the truck onto the trailer?  I 
had the opposite problem with a 16' box trailer I used to have, and my 
mid-engined racecar.  It was a lot more stable if I backed the racecar 
into the trailer and gave it a little more tongue weight... so that's what 
I did.

--
  David Hillman

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Jun 23 11:23:01 2012
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:23:01 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
Message-ID: <20120623.132301.6826.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>

I think the manufacturers purposefully bias their measurements to help ensure
haulers get adequate tongue weight.As a young and foolish teen I recall having
friends help me pull down the tongue on a trailer so I could get it hitched!
Luckily there was no wreck and I learned a good lesson.  I will occasionally
weigh the tongue weight now. If you aren't in a hurry, most manufacturers will
position the axles wherever you want them but you may have to wait and maybe a
little $$.
Matt


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "John Niolon" <jniolon at att.net>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:26:31 -0500

I need some advise on purchasing a car hauler...  vehicle is a '53 Ford F-100
with a fiberglass front clip and a 460 engine
15' overall length with 111" wheelbase...   approx weight 3600-3800#  with
engine weight (700-800# centered pretty much over front axle..... Tow vehicle
is 2008 suburban 5.3L with weight dist. hitch..

looking at several models and pretty much settled on an 18' steel deck w/wo
dove tail... slide out ramps from the back and other goodies.

I look at the trailers and the forward of axles to back of axles is about a
60/40 ratio and that seems to be the consensus on most trailers...

got to thinking... if I pull my truck on the trailer most of the weight will
be well forward of the axles. guessing my truck will be in the 3600-3800
range
with the 460 and probably 80% of the weight forward of the trailer axles...
that seems a little heavy on the front of the trailer and will put too much
tongue weight out there... look at the sketches below and tell me what you
think..  this is above my paygrade on math

thanks
John



http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/trucksketch.jpg
http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/bigtex.jpg

I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Jun 23 12:26:49 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:26:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
In-Reply-To: <20120623.132301.6826.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20120623.132301.6826.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6fHRQLNSZJth_CfnrhScpw7tnrJ35Dyo=wyvxLGoo_b2g@mail.gmail.com>

First, whatever you end up doing, please share the results here. We just
bought an '02 Suburban for somewhat the same use you're looking at. It's
got the 5.3 LS motor and 3.73 gearing so it should tow pretty much tow
anything we want it to, utility trailer, car trailer or travel trailer.

Anyway, I'd think you'd want to move the load back and forth to get the
optimum tongue weight. Educated guess would be around 60% to 70% of the
rating, but I'd do some research to be sure. Once you figure out where the
truck needs to be, mark the spot some way.

FWIW,
Ron

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:

> I think the manufacturers purposefully bias their measurements to help
> ensure
> haulers get adequate tongue weight.As a young and foolish teen I recall
> having
> friends help me pull down the tongue on a trailer so I could get it
> hitched!
> Luckily there was no wreck and I learned a good lesson.  I will
> occasionally
> weigh the tongue weight now. If you aren't in a hurry, most manufacturers
> will
> position the axles wherever you want them but you may have to wait and
> maybe a
> little $$.
> Matt
>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "John Niolon" <jniolon at att.net>
> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:26:31 -0500
>
> I need some advise on purchasing a car hauler...  vehicle is a '53 Ford
> F-100
> with a fiberglass front clip and a 460 engine
> 15' overall length with 111" wheelbase...   approx weight 3600-3800#  with
> engine weight (700-800# centered pretty much over front axle..... Tow
> vehicle
> is 2008 suburban 5.3L with weight dist. hitch..
>
> looking at several models and pretty much settled on an 18' steel deck w/wo
> dove tail... slide out ramps from the back and other goodies.
>
> I look at the trailers and the forward of axles to back of axles is about a
> 60/40 ratio and that seems to be the consensus on most trailers...
>
> got to thinking... if I pull my truck on the trailer most of the weight
> will
> be well forward of the axles. guessing my truck will be in the 3600-3800
> range
> with the 460 and probably 80% of the weight forward of the trailer axles...
> that seems a little heavy on the front of the trailer and will put too much
> tongue weight out there... look at the sketches below and tell me what you
> think..  this is above my paygrade on math
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/trucksketch.jpg
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/bigtex.jpg
>
> I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Jun 23 12:33:05 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:33:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6fHRQLNSZJth_CfnrhScpw7tnrJ35Dyo=wyvxLGoo_b2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120623.132301.6826.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
	<CAMHhs6fHRQLNSZJth_CfnrhScpw7tnrJ35Dyo=wyvxLGoo_b2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6cauYqUbgJVk4FoKZGk75ZwFdYEoZcp3Ao+9Fnk7LM-og@mail.gmail.com>

Just found this (http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm) page which looks like
it has a ton of good info. It also looks like the weight scale this guy
sells is reasonably priced and simple to use.

Ron

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:

> First, whatever you end up doing, please share the results here. We just
> bought an '02 Suburban for somewhat the same use you're looking at. It's
> got the 5.3 LS motor and 3.73 gearing so it should tow pretty much tow
> anything we want it to, utility trailer, car trailer or travel trailer.
>
> Anyway, I'd think you'd want to move the load back and forth to get the
> optimum tongue weight. Educated guess would be around 60% to 70% of the
> rating, but I'd do some research to be sure. Once you figure out where the
> truck needs to be, mark the spot some way.
>
> FWIW,
> Ron
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:
>
>> I think the manufacturers purposefully bias their measurements to help
>> ensure
>> haulers get adequate tongue weight.As a young and foolish teen I recall
>> having
>> friends help me pull down the tongue on a trailer so I could get it
>> hitched!
>> Luckily there was no wreck and I learned a good lesson.  I will
>> occasionally
>> weigh the tongue weight now. If you aren't in a hurry, most manufacturers
>> will
>> position the axles wherever you want them but you may have to wait and
>> maybe a
>> little $$.
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: "John Niolon" <jniolon at att.net>
>> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
>> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:26:31 -0500
>>
>> I need some advise on purchasing a car hauler...  vehicle is a '53 Ford
>> F-100
>> with a fiberglass front clip and a 460 engine
>> 15' overall length with 111" wheelbase...   approx weight 3600-3800#  with
>> engine weight (700-800# centered pretty much over front axle..... Tow
>> vehicle
>> is 2008 suburban 5.3L with weight dist. hitch..
>>
>> looking at several models and pretty much settled on an 18' steel deck
>> w/wo
>> dove tail... slide out ramps from the back and other goodies.
>>
>> I look at the trailers and the forward of axles to back of axles is about
>> a
>> 60/40 ratio and that seems to be the consensus on most trailers...
>>
>> got to thinking... if I pull my truck on the trailer most of the weight
>> will
>> be well forward of the axles. guessing my truck will be in the 3600-3800
>> range
>> with the 460 and probably 80% of the weight forward of the trailer
>> axles...
>> that seems a little heavy on the front of the trailer and will put too
>> much
>> tongue weight out there... look at the sketches below and tell me what you
>> think..  this is above my paygrade on math
>>
>> thanks
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/trucksketch.jpg
>> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/bigtex.jpg
>>
>> I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/forumsUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/forumsUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Jun 23 14:50:08 2012
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:50:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6cauYqUbgJVk4FoKZGk75ZwFdYEoZcp3Ao+9Fnk7LM-og@mail.g
	mail.com>
References: <20120623.132301.6826.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
	<CAMHhs6fHRQLNSZJth_CfnrhScpw7tnrJ35Dyo=wyvxLGoo_b2g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMHhs6cauYqUbgJVk4FoKZGk75ZwFdYEoZcp3Ao+9Fnk7LM-og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120623164831.04d51710@cox.net>

At 02:33 PM 6/23/2012, Ronnie Day wrote:

 >Just found this (http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm) page which looks like
 >it has a ton of good info. It also looks like the weight scale this guy
 >sells is reasonably priced and simple to use.

Ron,

Wow, thanks for sharing that.  The scale is a fantastic idea and the 
price of $130ish is quite reasionable!!!!  The documentation the site 
provides is outstanding!!!

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From elans4 at cox.net  Sat Jun 23 16:26:45 2012
From: elans4 at cox.net (Mullen)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:26:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6fHRQLNSZJth_CfnrhScpw7tnrJ35Dyo=wyvxLGoo_b2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120623.132301.6826.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
	<CAMHhs6fHRQLNSZJth_CfnrhScpw7tnrJ35Dyo=wyvxLGoo_b2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01cd518f$4703d8a0$d50b89e0$@net>

Ronnie Day wrote:

> Anyway, I'd think you'd want to move the load back and forth to 
> get the optimum tongue weight. Educated guess would be around 60% 
> to 70% of the rating, but I'd do some research to be sure. Once 
> you figure out where the truck needs to be, mark the spot some way.

When I needed to haul my Elan, I figured out how much tongue weight I
needed.  Then I placed that amount of weight at the rear of my truck and
measured the height of the hitch from the ground.

I loaded the Elan, and rolled it forward until the height was at the proper
level (it was surprising how small a change in position would change the
height).

Then I inserted some wheel chocks under the front wheel and marked the
position - backed up the car a bit, drilled holes into the wood deck of the
trailer and bolted down the chocks (they actually fold up to almost flat so
they are not in the way when using the trailer for other purposes).

The trailer/car pulled perfectly without any problems at all.  You really
need to get as close to the proper tongue weight as possible - too little
can be dangerous, too much can be very bad on the towing vehicle/trailer.

Tim 

From pethier at comcast.net  Sun Jun 24 06:03:57 2012
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:03:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
In-Reply-To: <D55200F22A60467FBE0B3B0C994FF981@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <2141391669.1509300.1340539437839.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

An old rule-of-thumb is to have the hitch drop 1 inch when the loaded trailer is added.  All you need to do is measure the hitch height, then hook up the trailer and roll your load around until you reach the magic 1-inch drop.  Do this test with the ignition off, since your Suburban may have an air-ride leveling system.  

I run the Stag almost as far back as I can.  The Elise rides far enough forward that I can carry a couple of tires behind the strapped-down Race Ramps.

If you hook up your load-leveler stuff, do not get the final hitch height higher than your pre-trailer level.  I don't use a load-leveler.  I expect my enclosed trailer and Stag about equals your open trailer and pickup.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com

----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Niolon" <jniolon at att.net>
> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:26:31 AM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: car hauler advise needed
> I need some advise on purchasing a car hauler... vehicle is a '53 Ford
> F-100
> with a fiberglass front clip and a 460 engine
> 15' overall length with 111" wheelbase... approx weight 3600-3800#
> with
> engine weight (700-800# centered pretty much over front axle..... Tow
> vehicle
> is 2008 suburban 5.3L with weight dist. hitch..
> 
> looking at several models and pretty much settled on an 18' steel deck
> w/wo
> dove tail... slide out ramps from the back and other goodies.
> 
> I look at the trailers and the forward of axles to back of axles is
> about a
> 60/40 ratio and that seems to be the consensus on most trailers...
> 
> got to thinking... if I pull my truck on the trailer most of the
> weight will
> be well forward of the axles. guessing my truck will be in the
> 3600-3800 range
> with the 460 and probably 80% of the weight forward of the trailer
> axles...
> that seems a little heavy on the front of the trailer and will put too
> much
> tongue weight out there... look at the sketches below and tell me what
> you
> think.. this is above my paygrade on math
> 
> thanks
> John
> 
> 
> 
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/trucksketch.jpg
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/bigtex.jpg
> 
> I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From phoenix722 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 26 17:53:49 2012
From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:53:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] summer is here
Message-ID: <457516BF2D934A759228981CD9302FDD@Mike>

Something to do when you run out of projects.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120626.html

Mike

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 26 20:04:52 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 22:04:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Design News - Made by Monkeys - Engine Shakeup Stumps
 Service Crew
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9UK8U7PAnoZjPwc+dsqrnU+14SHYQaYT21nXxDQz44KOg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a great story about somebody being careless on a Chevrolet assembly
line:

  http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1367&doc_id=243501

Their "Made by Monkeys" blog posts have lots of other stories which would be
of interest to members of this list.

Doug

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Tue Jun 26 20:11:04 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 19:11:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] summer is here
In-Reply-To: <457516BF2D934A759228981CD9302FDD@Mike>
References: <457516BF2D934A759228981CD9302FDD@Mike>
Message-ID: <4FEA6BB8.1040606@frontier.com>

Not in Western Washington, it's not.

Mike wrote:
> Something to do when you run out of projects.

Oh, I have a ton of projects.  It's just that I need dry ground to do 
most of them...


Dave
Soggy in Snohomish

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jun 26 21:17:36 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:17:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] summer is here
In-Reply-To: <4FEA6BB8.1040606@frontier.com>
References: <457516BF2D934A759228981CD9302FDD@Mike>
	<4FEA6BB8.1040606@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <D5707F92EBC2489BB669B6DFF67F8BA4@EntCentPC>

Dave,

July 5th is coming, so Jun-uary's demise is near!!!  Dry ground will be here
soon.

Jack
Covington

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David C.
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:11 PM
Cc: Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] summer is here

Not in Western Washington, it's not.

Mike wrote:
> Something to do when you run out of projects.

Oh, I have a ton of projects.  It's just that I need dry ground to do 
most of them...


Dave
Soggy in Snohomish

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jun 26 21:37:23 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:37:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Fluid Clean Up Tips
Message-ID: <4FEA7FF3.80906@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys --

Looking for advice on the best way to clean up a big brake fluid mess 
(regular DOT3 stuff.) Had a hydraulic clutch repair go very badly. Have 
a couple quarts of the crud on my garage floor (thankfully epoxied so as 
not to soak in) and two sets of clothes soaked in it  :(

I soaked up the worst with oil dry.  Is the stuff water soluble? Can I 
put down Simple Green or something and vacuum up with a squeege nozzle?

Should I just throw out the clothes? Don't want to make a mess of my 
nice front-load washer.

Thanks for any advice!
    -Wayne

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 26 22:00:05 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:00:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Fluid Clean Up Tips
In-Reply-To: <4FEA7FF3.80906@xxiii.com>
References: <4FEA7FF3.80906@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9U2fWtWmzpWiPvEwgAqKUL+8di+dnEV=c=SJAJ=RdkOdQ@mail.gmail.com>

It is definitely water soluble.  I would try a mop and bucket of water.

Doug

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> Hey Guys --
>
> Looking for advice on the best way to clean up a big brake fluid mess
> (regular DOT3 stuff.) Had a hydraulic clutch repair go very badly. Have a
> couple quarts of the crud on my garage floor (thankfully epoxied so as not
> to soak in) and two sets of clothes soaked in it  :(
>
> I soaked up the worst with oil dry.  Is the stuff water soluble? Can I put
> down Simple Green or something and vacuum up with a squeege nozzle?
>
> Should I just throw out the clothes? Don't want to make a mess of my nice
> front-load washer.
>
> Thanks for any advice!
>   -Wayne
> ________________

From mark at bradakis.com  Tue Jun 26 22:55:58 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 22:55:58 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Fluid Clean Up Tips
In-Reply-To: <4FEA7FF3.80906@xxiii.com>
References: <4FEA7FF3.80906@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA925E.9030801@bradakis.com>

Wayne wrote:
>   Is the stuff water soluble?

One of the main problems with brake fluid is keeping water out of it.
Mop it up as best you can.  As for the clothes I'd suggest a soak in some
hot soapy water to get the big chunks out before you throw them in
the machine.

mjb.