From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Dec  2 07:31:40 2012
From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 14:31:40 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
Message-ID: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>

Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one.

Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental 
rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even 
after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various 
insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing 
with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer 
websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible.

Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting 
sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond.

Thanks

Nick Brearley

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sun Dec  2 07:56:52 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 09:56:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
In-Reply-To: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CNYAUOfgg1xz=MemTmsMtPTZ0mjyxwcZLFUtuQmft74jQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Nick Brearley <nick at landform.co.uk> wrote:
> Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one.
>
> Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates
> National kept on coming up significantly cheaper


It's been a while since I rented from National specifically, but I
don't recall any problems generally.  But here's some tips for renting
a car in the US:

Take pictures all around the car, both before and after, including the
odometer.  Keep 'em for six months, at least.

Make sure all the existing damage is noted on the rental form - don't
take someone's word for it that "it's too small to worry about".

If you fill the car up before you return it, make sure to keep the
receipt for six months.

Some rental companies like to bill you later for damage and fuel, long
after you've returned home.  If you didn't do it, you want to have
something to show them.

Enjoy your trip!

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Dec  2 08:05:24 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 09:05:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
In-Reply-To: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000301cdd09e$750f0060$5f2d0120$@ameritech.net>

I always preferred National years ago, but have only rented cars a very few
times in the past decade, so can't be of much help with them.  When Jill and
I went to California last June, we looked thoroughly at all the car rentals
available, and ended up with Hertz, after buying a one-year AAA membership.
We did want a convertible, one-way, and took it for 10 days which meant it
was more expensive, but still, after trying to find and add all the hidden
costs into the others, we thought it was the best deal.  And lots less
worries than with some of the bargain companies, some of which have almost
no good reviews.
Shop-talk content - on the trip, we picked up a bulky and breakable part for
my Cagiva Gran Canyon in Sunnyvale  ;-)
Have a good trip!
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Brearley
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one.
Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates
National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even after allowing
for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various insurance gotchas. If
anyone has any experience or advice about dealing with National I'd be very
interested to hear it. Looking at consumer websites gives the usual spread
from perfect to terrible.
Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting sundry
bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond.
Thanks
Nick Brearley

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Dec  2 08:24:50 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 09:24:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
In-Reply-To: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <COL115-W615AD4C81EA651A5BE99EFCC410@phx.gbl>

I rent from National whenever I travel on business, which is fairly
frequently.  Now, in all honesty, that is because my company has a contract
with Enterprise and my two choices are Enterprise or National (Enterprise also
owns Alamo, but they aren't part of our preferred rates).  Still, I have never
had a problem with them.  They are quick and efficient (I skip the Enterprise
brand because they are more geared for less frequent renters and it takes
longer to get the car and go) and I do like the "choose your own car" option.
It would be more fun if the cars were more exciting, but it is nice to be able
to pick a car based on my needs and feelings at the time.

All that said, like anything that relies on a retail network, I have found
that some of the locations are better than others.  But, the company is
certainly solid in my experience.

> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:31:40 +0000
> From: nick at landform.co.uk
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
>
> Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one.
>
> Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental
> rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even
> after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various
> insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing
> with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer
> websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible.
>
> Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting
> sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond.
>
> Thanks
>
> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Dec  2 08:46:20 2012
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 10:46:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
In-Reply-To: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5E75D88F-1E28-4689-8FF5-A28AF8F4D016@groupwbench.org>

There has been a lot of consolidation in the rental car business and to me it
seems most mid-level companies are the same. I haven't had any issues with any
of them in well over a decade. Enterprise owns National so you have a good
service area should anything happen.

Here in the USA, almost every credit card company will have insurance coverage
securing the car if you use the card, and they probably mate that coverage to
the renter's policy for their own car, which may have gaps/overlaps with a
non-USA policy. That's some fine print worth reading, and check with your car
insurance co to see what they cover for rentals.

jim


On Dec 2, 2012, at 9:31 AM, Nick Brearley wrote:

> Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one.
>
> Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental rates
National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even after allowing
for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various insurance gotchas. If
anyone has any experience or advice about dealing with National I'd be very
interested to hear it. Looking at consumer websites gives the usual spread
from perfect to terrible.
>
> Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting sundry
bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond.
>
> Thanks
>
> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Dec  2 10:26:10 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 12:26:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental (and how to destroy a rental
 car, and why to never buy one)
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CNYAUOfgg1xz=MemTmsMtPTZ0mjyxwcZLFUtuQmft74jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
	<CAO8Q7CNYAUOfgg1xz=MemTmsMtPTZ0mjyxwcZLFUtuQmft74jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50BB8F32.8010206@xxiii.com>

On 12/2/2012 9:56 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
> It's been a while since I rented from National specifically, but I
> don't recall any problems generally.  But here's some tips for renting
> a car in the US:

I despise rental car companies. Some ding you for little junk, others 
could care less. Prices vary widely, and reservations are just a tease.

Back early-mid 1990s, I had to displeasure of getting one while my DD 
was in the shop. It was a POS Dodge "Sundance" or some similar garbage, 
built poorly on what was probably their "K car" chassis of yore. It was 
-20 dF in Ohio, and roommate & I had gone to grocery in it. The 
passenger door refused to latch. So... he opened it again, and tugged 
harder. Still no latch. Repeat 3rd time, and pull pretty hard (but not 
really abusive) -- BANG!!! - window glass shatters out and flies all 
over us. Still no latch. Pissed now ... 4th try and REALLY slam the F*** 
out of it, finally it latches. Drive home with -20 wind blasting in.

Returned next day. Tried to be nice. "Maybe assembly line put it in 
wrong so there was some pre-stress on the glass, contributing to the 
fracture that should not have happened??" Dumb c*** says "Nonsense, that 
is a BRAND NEW CAR, It CAN NOT HAVE *ANYTHING* WRONG WITH IT." Excuse 
me, it's a Chrysler POS, it's pretty much guaranteed to have some, if 
not multiple things "wrong" with it when brand new. Stupid, ignorant, b***h.

Advised I'll be charged for the damage, and possible down time on the 
car. They give me an even uglier version of the same POS Dodge, a 
"Shadow" or some garbage with a faux hood scoop and asinine decals on 
this god-awfully underpowered 2 door poser secretary's "sports car", so 
tacky that I'm embarrassed to even be seen in.

Gonna charge me, eh? Proceed to start doing neutral drops and brake 
launches everywhere I go, with what little torque the POS can muster. 
Junk OEM tires and sub zero temps help get some really abusive wheel hop 
and tire spin. After 4 days, the rental is up and the transmission is 
making some BAD noises. I limp it back ever so gently to the office to 
finish our ordeal. I am VERY sure the next person who drove it, or tried 
to accelerate to highway speed had the transaxle explode. MwuHaHaHa! 
"new car -- can't have anything wrong with it."

Was sent a bill for $200 window glass replacement, and $500 lost rental 
time. I responded with quotes from three different glass companies 
saying they could have replaced it same day, on site, for well under $100.

Never heard back from them  :)

-Wayne

From jem at milleredp.com  Sun Dec  2 12:41:08 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 11:41:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental (and how to destroy a rental
 car, and why to never buy one)
In-Reply-To: <50BB8F32.8010206@xxiii.com>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
	<CAO8Q7CNYAUOfgg1xz=MemTmsMtPTZ0mjyxwcZLFUtuQmft74jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BB8F32.8010206@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <50BBAED4.4070206@milleredp.com>

> Returned next day. Tried to be nice. "Maybe assembly line put it in
> wrong so there was some pre-stress on the glass, contributing to the
> fracture that should not have happened??" Dumb c*** says "Nonsense, that
> is a BRAND NEW CAR, It CAN NOT HAVE *ANYTHING* WRONG WITH IT." Excuse
> me, it's a Chrysler POS, it's pretty much guaranteed to have some, if
> not multiple things "wrong" with it when brand new. Stupid, ignorant,
> b***h.

I've never had a truly BAD customer service experience with a car-rental 
firm, but then maybe my expectations aren't very high to begin with.

As far as the mechanical side of the new-rental-car experience...

I flew into SeaTac once, maybe fifteen years ago.  Late at night, last 
thing they had left was a Plymouth minivan.  Brand new, 30 miles on the 
odo.  Okay, fine, motor off to Bellevue.

Next night I drive into Seattle for dinner with some friends, and on the 
way back across the floating bridge I notice that the temperature gauge 
is periodically bouncing off the hot peg and coming back down to normal. 
  It's binary - ping, pong.

Common now for temp gauges to be little more than three- or four-stage 
idiot lights, with some combination of cold, normal, and fried and 
little or nothing in between, but I hadn't experienced too many of those 
back then.

At any rate, it took a whole ten seconds to decide:

a) It's still running

b) I've got ten miles to go to the hotel

c) What happens to it after that I could give an airborne fornicative 
act about.

d) It's pouring rain

e) The last thing I want to be doing is troubleshooting this POS by the 
side of the road

Ran fine back to the hotel.  Next morning I opened the radiator cap. 
The radiator was clean as the day it was manufactured.  As in apparently 
never touched by coolant.

Called up...think it was Thrifty.

"Oh, you can take it to our office over there, they'll get you something 
else."

So, after a few more words about "Let me write down your name please, 
and just a reminder that it's not my fault if it blows up on the way, 
you've been warned", I did.  And it got there.

Gave me a little Dodge convertible IIRC.   Guy at the counter was 
nonplussed about the van.

"Couple months ago we had a family come in, picked up one of those, it 
was fine until they hit the mountains.  That one blew up, we had to tow 
it back.  The radiator fan had never been plugged in."

John.

From mdporter at dfn.com  Sun Dec  2 14:36:14 2012
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 14:36:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
In-Reply-To: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <50BBC9CE.2070806@dfn.com>

On 12/2/2012 7:31 AM, Nick Brearley wrote:
> Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one.
>
> Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental 
> rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even 
> after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various 
> insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about 
> dealing with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at 
> consumer websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible.
>

In addition to all the previous caveats, be aware that many rental 
companies now have GPS tracking in their cars, and even if you buy daily 
insurance from them, if they offer unlimited mileage, it's only for 
their region of operation (usually specified in the small print).  So, 
rent a car in southern California and decide to take a day trip to 
Vegas, they'll whack you later for additional charges for crossing the 
border into Nevada.  And don't even think about a trip to Tijuana....


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Dec  2 14:39:56 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:39:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9Xq4QhnOg4M60ocUa7p3g2d2gii0cbwVy5k4HGZKku0-g@mail.gmail.com>

If you are picking up the car at an airport, and you are able to sign
up for the company's "elite" membership (for example Avis Preferred or
National Emerald Club), definitely do it (I believe it is free).  Then
you can go directly to your car instead of having to wait in line at a
counter to fill out a bunch of paperwork.  And these days, a lot the
rental companies let their elite customers select any available car in
the correct price class: just walk down the line of parked cars, and
choose the one that catches your fancy.

The major companies tend to be quick and easy, especially at airports.
 It's the low-budget operations that tend to be a pain, especially
about minor damage.  I rent 4-5 times a year from Hertz or Avis, and I
can't ever remember having a problem with damage, etc.

BTW: before starting on a long trip in the car, double check that your
contract says you have unlimited mileage.  Once I got a car in SF to
drive to and return in LA, and the contract said something like 25
cents per mile.  I all I had to do was call them and they immediately
changed the rate plan.

Doug

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Dec  2 16:38:50 2012
From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 23:38:50 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9Xq4QhnOg4M60ocUa7p3g2d2gii0cbwVy5k4HGZKku0-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOtbU9Xq4QhnOg4M60ocUa7p3g2d2gii0cbwVy5k4HGZKku0-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50BBE68A.3040607@landform.co.uk>

On 02/12/2012 21:39, Doug Braun wrote:
> If you are picking up the car at an airport, and you are able to sign
> up for the company's "elite" membership (for example Avis Preferred or
> National Emerald Club), definitely do it (I believe it is free).

Thanks for the Emerald Club pointer Doug. I'll keep an eye open for that.

And thanks to all who replied so promptly. If any of you look to make 
the trip over this side I hope I can be equally helpful.

FWIW we'll go with National but make sure the camera is on hand to 
record anything that could be contentious in the future.

Nick Brearley

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Dec  2 16:58:05 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:58:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental
In-Reply-To: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
References: <50BB664C.8070307@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <95129C6FADD84E4F971C40477A6EAC4A@EntCentPC>

Nick,

National is my favorite, as once you are a member of their Emerald club you
get to walk down their Emerald Isle and pick your own car.  I like that, as
I have really long legs and don't fit in everything.  Also I don't like
renting red/black cars; IMHO they are cop magnets.

Also, one way rentals are very location sensitive.  We did a three week one
way trip from FL (Orlando) to NJ(Newark).  Returning the car at a little
airport (Bradley in CT) and renting it right back for a day to get to Newark
cost $800 total.  Driving it to Newark directly, without the return and new
rental was over $1,400.

With regard to charges, some quotes include all taxes, etc., some don't.  Be
careful that you are comparing apples to apples.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Nick Brearley
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 6:32 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on car rental

Sorry for the OT but I'd be very grateful for any input on this one.

Been planning a West Coast trip next February. Looking for car rental 
rates National kept on coming up significantly cheaper (~40%), even 
after allowing for unlimited mileage, one way dropoff and various 
insurance gotchas. If anyone has any experience or advice about dealing 
with National I'd be very interested to hear it. Looking at consumer 
websites gives the usual spread from perfect to terrible.

Tenuous Shoptalk link, the car will probably be used for transporting 
sundry bits which will be used in my shop back across the pond.

Thanks

Nick Brearley
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Mon Dec  3 04:39:58 2012
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 06:39:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Holiday decor... diagnose and repair?
Message-ID: <D1FABF40-EB29-42F8-AFA1-1DFD493246F9@trebelhorn.com>

Okay, so last year my wife found these lights at the big orange store  
-- they are about 8" diameter plastic peppermints.  (Some of them run  
alongside the garage/shop, facing the road.)

There are 4 in a set, and they have LEDs inside -- they change color,  
flash, etc. in sync.  They are slightly less obnoxious than they sound.

So there are something like 6 or 8 wires running in parallel along  
the set; each unit has 4 wires going into it (actually I think it's 2  
going in and 2 going out).  Between the wall and light #1 is a box  
about the size of a pack of cigarettes.

So last year lights 3 and 4 on this strand stopped being in sync with  
the others.  They would change, but more slowly.

This year, light #3 is now intermittent.  When it works, it's in  
sync.  Light #4 is still on a slow semi-sync with the others.  It is  
not affected by whether #3 is on or off.

So, I want to try to diagnose and fix light #3, and maybe #4.  Mostly  
just thinking through it at this point.

First thought: open light #3 (the housing is held together with  
screws) and make sure the connections to the strand are good.  Make  
sure nothing looks blown up or otherwise damaged in the circuits  
inside there.

Second: open the cigarette pack and see what is in there.

Okay, so it's not much of a plan.

Other thoughts: it probably uses the 60hz signal to stay in sync with  
other strands; you can daisy-chain them or run them off the same  
switch and they stay synched.  I can't tell yet if the box is a  
controller, or if the individual peppermints have their own  
controllers/flashers built in.  Or both.

Any thoughts on how to figure these things out, or experience in  
dealing with similar little gizmos?

Many thanks.
Matt

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Dec  3 13:44:41 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 15:44:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:  Entirely  not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <CALUbS3FP9dDKqe00OTkJCW5Ndiq+cGuybQiGT_tE+fiCt22bwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com>
	<CALUbS3FP9dDKqe00OTkJCW5Ndiq+cGuybQiGT_tE+fiCt22bwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>

Okay, bought new Win8 discs.  Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD.

Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works.

Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be for 
an upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when typing 
in the activation key.

I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the 
discs--can I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this Win8 
set? They said yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says 
'upgrade'. Not that it matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, so 
I'm staking out the moral high ground now.

I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I have 
the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and last 
time I tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any malware 
going from the old drive to the new one.

I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in its 
unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time or 
anything else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best Buy 
and buy the 'right' set.

On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for an 
E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on the 
old HD, too, but only after I installed Win8.

This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to clone 
the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial written 
as if for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd need to 
clone an 80 GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare minimum 
necessary to be kosher with those Redmond bastages.

And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our Lenovo 
machines.

Scott

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Mon Dec  3 14:10:46 2012
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:10:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:  Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>
References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com>
	<CALUbS3FP9dDKqe00OTkJCW5Ndiq+cGuybQiGT_tE+fiCt22bwA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP9AQgb7rWqruSqUMGxSFDUFHm76cpJ2KjeRkVoW5Uu0Vw@mail.gmail.com>

Scott-

Best Buy won't accept returns of opened software, unfortunately.

Do you have the original XP (or Vista) discs that came with your Dell? It
would likely have been sold with an OEM license for one of those (check
under the E6400's battery for the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) and
installation key). If you have the COA but no discs, let me know which OS
it is, and I can get you an ISO. If no COA, then we venture towards the
more grey area, though you already have a legitimate installation of
Windows there already, no? You could do an absolutely minimal installation
of that and "upgrade" it from there. It appears that XP, Vista and 7 are
eligible for the Windows 8 upgrade.

Some info here:
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57505867-292/upgrading-to-windows-8-what-you-need-to-know-faq/

Cloning from a smaller drive to a larger drive should be pretty trouble
free. I do that regularly with Clonezilla and GParted, both of which are
free, and you can get both of them on the "Ultimate Boot CD". Search for
"UBCD". It will even boot from a USB stick, if you are short on writeable
CD media. I can put together some docs for that if you would like. For that
system, it should be very easy - I have done it here at my office. It is a
multi-step process - install the source drive, clone it, install the new
SSD, restore it, then expand the resulting restored partition to the full
size of the new drive.

I have been happier with the Dell Latitude D- and E-series systems (of
which I have purchased over 75 in the past 3.5 years) than the Thinkpad
systems I purchased in an earlier life. That said, there are always lemons!

-Peter


On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Scott <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:

> Okay, bought new Win8 discs.  Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD.
>
> Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works.
>
> Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be for an
> upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when typing in
> the activation key.
>
> I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the discs--can
> I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this Win8 set? They
> said yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says 'upgrade'. Not that it
> matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, so I'm staking out the moral
> high ground now.
>
> I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I have
> the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and last time I
> tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any malware going
> from the old drive to the new one.
>
> I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in its
> unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time or
> anything else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best Buy and
> buy the 'right' set.
>
> On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for an
> E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on the old
> HD, too, but only after I installed Win8.
>
> This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to clone
> the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial written as
> if for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd need to clone
> an 80 GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare minimum necessary to be
> kosher with those Redmond bastages.
>
> And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our Lenovo
> machines.
>
> Scott
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/**
> peterwmurray at gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com>

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Dec  3 14:26:11 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:26:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:  Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP9AQgb7rWqruSqUMGxSFDUFHm76cpJ2KjeRkVoW5Uu0Vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com>
	<CALUbS3FP9dDKqe00OTkJCW5Ndiq+cGuybQiGT_tE+fiCt22bwA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>
	<CAJ8HLP9AQgb7rWqruSqUMGxSFDUFHm76cpJ2KjeRkVoW5Uu0Vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50BD18F3.3010207@gmail.com>

I do not have the discs that came with the Dell--Dell didn't ship it 
with discs, and I kept asking Dell for them, they never sent them, and I 
finally gave up.

The Dell does have one of those Windows stickers under the battery with 
a Windows product key on it for Vista. I say 'those' stickers like it 
means something--it's the 2-inch-by-1-inch multicolored one that the 
I.T. guys seem to care about on our work laptops. It does in fact say 
'Certificate of Authenticity' on it in tiny print.

Clonezilla and GParted are what I screwed up an old HDD with, but I was 
trying to go from a larger HDD to a smaller SSD, and I think that's 
where it went south. Everything I Google does seem to indicate going 
smaller to larger isn't a big deal.

Having said that, I would love whatever advice and direction you're 
willing to impart. I was apprehensive the first time I did it--now that 
I've successfully screwed one up I find myself thinking I should just 
check out lenovo.com for a new one. That's quite the phobia I've developed.

I agree about the brands--seems like I've just had good luck with the 
Lenovos, but I know people that swear by Dell, or Apple even. I blame my 
bias on my old office--we used Dell refurbs exclusively, and they made 
me hate Dell and anything refurbished. And I used to seek out refurbs 
before that, and I was pc-brand-agnostic (I mean, they're all the same 
under the hood, right?). I got this Dell because it was soooo much 
cheaper than the Lenovo I wanted and it was the only one besides the 
Lenovo that had the track pad mouse/pointing stick.

If I could get it working right I think I could like it. It's very, very 
light, which I love when traveling, and I even like the keyboard better 
than the Lenovo's.

I'll check out the link, too, Thanks. I'm liking Win8 so far, too. 
Clearly I'm in the minority.

Scott

On 12/3/2012 4:10 PM, Peter Murray wrote:
> Scott-
>
> Best Buy won't accept returns of opened software, unfortunately.
>
> Do you have the original XP (or Vista) discs that came with your Dell? 
> It would likely have been sold with an OEM license for one of those 
> (check under the E6400's battery for the Certificate of Authenticity 
> (COA) and installation key). If you have the COA but no discs, let me 
> know which OS it is, and I can get you an ISO. If no COA, then we 
> venture towards the more grey area, though you already have a 
> legitimate installation of Windows there already, no? You could do an 
> absolutely minimal installation of that and "upgrade" it from there. 
> It appears that XP, Vista and 7 are eligible for the Windows 8 upgrade.
>
> Some info here: 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57505867-292/upgrading-to-windows-8-what-you-need-to-know-faq/
>
> Cloning from a smaller drive to a larger drive should be pretty 
> trouble free. I do that regularly with Clonezilla and GParted, both of 
> which are free, and you can get both of them on the "Ultimate Boot 
> CD". Search for "UBCD". It will even boot from a USB stick, if you are 
> short on writeable CD media. I can put together some docs for that if 
> you would like. For that system, it should be very easy - I have done 
> it here at my office. It is a multi-step process - install the source 
> drive, clone it, install the new SSD, restore it, then expand the 
> resulting restored partition to the full size of the new drive.
>
> I have been happier with the Dell Latitude D- and E-series systems (of 
> which I have purchased over 75 in the past 3.5 years) than the 
> Thinkpad systems I purchased in an earlier life. That said, there are 
> always lemons!
>
> -Peter

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Dec  3 15:11:10 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:11:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:   Entirely  not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22.F4.00778.6732DB05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the 
> laptop in its unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I 
> risking jail time or anything else awful?

I believe the only likely penalty is an inability to use the Microsoft
update service.

> I assume I cannot 
> return the Win8 set to Best Buy and buy the 'right' set.

Might be worth a try, on the basis that what they sold you was not suitable
for the purpose you told them it was for.  As Peter pointed out, they have a
strict policy against accepting opened software returns, but your state may
have consumer protection laws that trump their return policy.  And a lot of
times, if you are persistent enough, the store manager will approve returns
that don't necessarily meet policy.  Expect to spend several hours there
though, and decide in advance what that is worth to you.

Probably easier to accept Peter's offer of something to upgrade from.

FWIW, the UBCD worked well for me, but was incredibly slow.  I wanted to
shrink a 750 Gb partition to create a new 10 Gb partition, and it took
several _days_ to do the shrink.  Would have been quicker to just copy the
old partition to an external drive, wipe out the internal, and copy the data
back (especially since there was only 50 Gb or so on the partition).

-- Randall 

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Dec  3 16:41:07 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 18:41:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:   Entirely not shop related, but...
Message-ID: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>

Since there are others on this list that will be albe to answer the IT 
part of this better than I can, all I want to talk about right now is 
the Best Buy part of this problem....

If you bought software from them based on THEIR incorrect 
information/guidance....then they should make good on THEIR error. If I 
was you I would make a stink and see to it that they make it right.

Did you pay with a credit card? I'd call your credit card company and 
see if they can help as well.

tim

 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Scott wrote:

> Okay, bought new Win8 discs.  Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD.
>
> Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works.
>
> Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be 
> for an upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when 
> typing in the activation key.
>
> I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the 
> discs--can I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this 
> Win8 set? They said yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says 
> 'upgrade'. Not that it matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, 
> so I'm staking out the moral high ground now.
>
> I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I 
> have the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and 
> last time I tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any 
> malware going from the old drive to the new one.
>
> I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in 
> its unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time 
> or anything else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best 
> Buy and buy the 'right' set.
>
> On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for 
> an E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on 
> the old HD, too, but only after I installed Win8.
>
> This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to 
> clone the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial 
> written as if for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd 
> need to clone an 80 GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare 
> minimum necessary to be kosher with those Redmond bastages.
>
> And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our 
> Lenovo machines.
>
> Scott
> _______________________________________________

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Dec  3 17:07:15 2012
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 19:07:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:   Entirely  not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>
References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com>
	<CALUbS3FP9dDKqe00OTkJCW5Ndiq+cGuybQiGT_tE+fiCt22bwA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0MEH00G3SCCSEBW0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Scott,

I have not done anything with Windows 8, but I believe earlier 
versions had another way to activate by phone.  If that is still 
possible, and the version you have/had on that machine is a valid 
candidate for upgrade, then you would just give them the info from 
the sticker and they would give you a way to activate.  I believe the 
original intent was to provide a way to activate without internet 
access.  Again, this information is old and may or may not apply to 
Windows 8, but it might be worth checking into.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net


At 03:44 PM 12/3/2012, Scott wrote:
>Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be 
>for an upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup 
>when typing in the activation key.

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 20:04:49 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 19:04:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:   Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BD18F3.3010207@gmail.com>
References: <50b10f1e.6558ec0a.7153.ffffebed@mx.google.com>
	<CALUbS3FP9dDKqe00OTkJCW5Ndiq+cGuybQiGT_tE+fiCt22bwA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BD0F39.3020806@gmail.com>
	<CAJ8HLP9AQgb7rWqruSqUMGxSFDUFHm76cpJ2KjeRkVoW5Uu0Vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BD18F3.3010207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1354590289.57663.YahooMailNeo@web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The windows activation has been upgraded over the  years. Yes, not being able
to install security updates is one problem. Not being able to use the OS is
another. It times out after a while and forces the activation unless their
security stops the auto activation. I used to reformat/reimage lab and company
classroom pcs on a daily basis. Norton Ghost was a wonderful tool. Others have
since replaced it. I hated activating stuff since the code would be logged,
then I wouldn't be able to install again after so many installs/activations.
That would be a problem if I couldn't continue the imaging process late at
night. Eventually enterprise level licensing came into play. That made my life
a little easier, but similar issues there. It is absolutely maddening not
being able to complete a process because of the security. It did not help
being in the office for many hours, tired, trying to get things done for the
next day. 

The best suggestion is to go back to Best Buy and have the item
exchanged for a FULL install version. They will give you grief because the
package has been opened, but if you make a big enough stink, you will just
have to pay the difference in price. If they still give you grief, that old
saying, where there is a will, there is a way. Another alternative is to
purchase a previous FULL version of OS and then upgrade that. Either way, it
will cost a few more bucks. The eye dee ten tee that sold you the upgrade
version should be educated as to the difference between upgrade and full
versions of windows. It has been that way for years. 

Going from a larger to
a smaller drive is not a big deal if everything fits on the smaller drive. 
Disks/CD/DVDs are no longer shipped. Many new PCs come with imaging software
and the images on the hard drive preloaded. You provide the blank CD/DVDs with
a write enable device and it does the creating of the media for you. 
Regards,
B



>________________________________
> From: Scott
<scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>
>To: Peter Murray <peterwmurray at gmail.com>
>Cc: Shop-Talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
>Sent: Monday, December 3,
2012 4:26 PM
>Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, was:
Re:  Entirely not shop related, but...
> 
>I do not have the discs that came
with the Dell--Dell didn't ship it with discs, and I kept asking Dell for
them, they never sent them, and I finally gave up.
>
>The Dell does have one
of those Windows stickers under the battery with a Windows product key on it
for Vista. I say 'those' stickers like it means something--it's the
2-inch-by-1-inch multicolored one that the I.T. guys seem to care about on our
work laptops. It does in fact say 'Certificate of Authenticity' on it in tiny
print.
>
>Clonezilla and GParted are what I screwed up an old HDD with, but I
was trying to go from a larger HDD to a smaller SSD, and I think that's where
it went south. Everything I Google does seem to indicate going smaller to
larger isn't a big deal.
>
>Having said that, I would love whatever advice and
direction you're willing to impart. I was apprehensive the first time I did
it--now that I've successfully screwed one up I find myself thinking I should
just check out lenovo.com for a new one. That's quite the phobia I've
developed.
>
>I agree about the brands--seems like I've just had good luck
with the Lenovos, but I know people that swear by Dell, or Apple even. I blame
my bias on my old office--we used Dell refurbs exclusively, and they made me
hate Dell and anything refurbished. And I used to seek out refurbs before
that, and I was pc-brand-agnostic (I mean, they're all the same under the
hood, right?). I got this Dell because it was soooo much cheaper than the
Lenovo I wanted and it was the only one besides the Lenovo that had the track
pad mouse/pointing stick.
>
>If I could get it working right I think I could
like it. It's very, very light, which I love when traveling, and I even like
the keyboard better than the Lenovo's.
>
>I'll check out the link, too,
Thanks. I'm liking Win8 so far, too. Clearly I'm in the minority.
>
>Scott
>(snip)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Dec  4 07:30:37 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 08:30:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:  Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:
> Since there are others on this list that will be albe to answer the IT part
> of this better than I can, all I want to talk about right now is the Best
> Buy part of this problem....
>
> If you bought software from them based on THEIR incorrect
> information/guidance....then they should make good on THEIR error. If I was
> you I would make a stink and see to it that they make it right.

In most states, there's an 'implied warranty of merchantability',
which means if you're sold something as being suitable for a purpose,
it needs to be.  They've certainly failed at that, and need to make it
right, or give you your money back.  It's best buy, though, so you're
probably stuck bitching at your credit card company.  I fail to
understand how that place stays in business.




>
> Did you pay with a credit card? I'd call your credit card company and see if
> they can help as well.
>
> tim
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Scott wrote:
>
>> Okay, bought new Win8 discs.  Bought new Samsung 250GB SSD.
>>
>> Put SSD in laptop, works. Installed Win8, works.
>>
>> Win8 is not 'activated', because the discs I purchased appear to be for an
>> upgrade, not a clean installation, according to the popup when typing in the
>> activation key.
>>
>> I asked specifically that question at Best Buy when buying the discs--can
>> I put a NEW HD in my laptop, NO CLONING and install this Win8 set? They said
>> yes. There's nothing on the packaging that says 'upgrade'. Not that it
>> matters, but I suspect my solution is illegal, so I'm staking out the moral
>> high ground now.
>>
>> I don't want to clone anything from the old drive to the new one. I have
>> the cables, but they (the drives) are different capacities, and last time I
>> tried that it all went bad. I also don't want to risk any malware going from
>> the old drive to the new one.
>>
>> I'm inclined to say screw it and just use the Win8 on the laptop in its
>> unactivated state--it seems to work fine. Am I risking jail time or anything
>> else awful? I assume I cannot return the Win8 set to Best Buy and buy the
>> 'right' set.
>>
>>
>> On a side note, there are no Win8 video drivers on Dell's website for an
>> E6400, and the display randomly shuts off, but then it did that on the old
>> HD, too, but only after I installed Win8.
>>
>> This is why I avoid IT stuff on my own. Is the 'right' solution to clone
>> the old drive, and if so, can any one recommend a web tutorial written as if
>> for a five year-old, but that is also comprehensive? I'd need to clone an 80
>> GB drive to a 250 GB SSD, and I want the bare minimum necessary to be kosher
>> with those Redmond bastages.
>>
>> And Dell sucks. All hail Lenovo. This crap never happened on our Lenovo
>> machines.
>>
>> Scott
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Dec  4 07:52:19 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 09:52:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:   Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com>

On 12/4/2012 9:30 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
> It's best buy, though, so you're
> probably stuck bitching at your credit card company.  I fail to
> understand how that place stays in business.

Competition - or lack thereof. Back during the 1990s, they ran all the 
other local chain and mom 'n' pop A/V, appliance, computer, and record & 
CD stores (remember those?) out of business. They came across as a mecca 
of electronics and good prices, and sold CDs and videos at what may have 
been loss-leader prices to get people in the store, in hopes they'd 
impulse purchase a TV or fridge.

Now as a near monopoly of brick & mortar stores, they suck and are far 
from inexpensive. But'ca know what? They make a great showroom to check 
things out before you buy from Amazon or NewEgg! (take THAT f*****s!) I 
don't despise them nearly as much as walmart, but they're getting closer.

-Wayne

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Dec  4 09:51:43 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:51:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:    Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com>

> Now as a near monopoly of brick & mortar stores, they suck and are far
> from inexpensive. But'ca know what? They make a great showroom to check
> things out before you buy from Amazon or NewEgg! (take THAT f*****s!) I
> don't despise them nearly as much as walmart, but they're getting closer.

Part of the problem is, back in the day you had a few product lines, and 
each line had a few models, and they weren't all that different in their 
features, and so a mom-and-pop or small local chain could manage to 
stock enough variety of product to keep everyone happy.

Then product lines got too big for a small stocking retailer to keep up 
with, Joe Blow would come through the door looking for the one with the 
orange light or the 170-frammis epithelium, and he'd end up down at the 
big-box store where they had twenty different models from ten different 
manufacturers on the shelf, and you could pick the one that had the 
switch here or the switch there (while the helpful sales rep tried to 
sell you the one with two switches instead of one 'cause it paid him more.)

Now of course we have, for whatever reason, vastly too much product out 
there for even the big-boxes.   And the narrow (in the case of the small 
shops) or dubious (in the case of the big-boxes) expertise has been 
replaced by the Internet hive-mind.

It's really down to (a) products you have to touch before buying (b) 
stuff you have to have NOW (c) stuff too bulky, heavy, dangerous, or 
spoilable to ship and (d) retailers who can maintain or develop a 
specific product niche.

John.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Dec  4 09:57:53 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:57:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump water heaters?
In-Reply-To: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com>
References: <50B06D89.1090708@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supZfczNAb3DqMpu6CzxT-p-3LHJst03srQwtNgXEB439Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Dave C <cavanadd at frontier.com> wrote:
> I must not get out enough.  I saw an ad for these in tonight's paper.  I
> never knew they existed.  I understand how they work, and I guess if natural
> gas was unavailable and your electricity was really, really expensive, they
> might pencil outr, but it looks to me like a (very complicated) solution
> looking for a problem.

Not exactly related, but GE recently moved the production of their
version of this water heater from China to Kentucky.  The American
made version is 25% cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient.  That
will reduce the payback time quite a bit.

>
> When my (12 year old) propane heater craps out we'll be getting another
> propane heater...
>
> Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shochschild at att.net  Tue Dec  4 12:48:04 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 13:48:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:     Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <50BE5374.3060602@att.net>

As a former tech support/ retail sales guy, I probably would have 
answered the question the same way the Best Buy person did, if I had 
been that clerk.  I am standing up for the sales people who generally do 
know far more than is being assumed here.  Do you have any idea how much 
Microsoft Windows 8 training Best Buy employees have had in the last few 
weeks?  Many, many, many hours.  Getting and keeping a job at Best Buy 
is not easy; I do not agree that they hire idiots, which someone said.

Forgive me if I misread it, but I understood your question to be whether 
or not you could do a clean Windows install on a brand new hard drive 
with an upgrade copy of Windows, and the answer to that is yes, you 
can.  I would have assumed that you actually had the license cd.  No 
sales guy is going to suggest that you are running Windows without a 
license cd, that would not be good sales technique.

Did you specifically ask if you could do a clean install on a new drive 
with an upgrade copy without the original Windows CD?  I believe the 
answer to that question is no, as you have discovered.   Again, I don't 
know what you asked, but that is the way I would have heard and answered 
it.

Anyway, I will go out on a limb and predict that BestBuy will exchange 
the opened upgrade copy you purchased for a full license copy, and 
charge you the difference, if you politely explain that you purchased an 
upgrade product that you can't use.   They might be even more likely to 
agree to this if you take your machine in to them and ask them how much 
the Geek Squad would charge to do this new install for you, which will 
get you what you want, done right, very quickly, and allow them to 
provide the service that makes them useful in this new retail world, 
where places with employees compete with places without employees.  Look 
at the Amazon page, does it answer the question you asked?  How could 
it, there is no one to ask!...

  Please let us know what happens...

On 12/4/2012 10:51 AM, John Miller wrote:
>> Now as a near monopoly of brick & mortar stores, they suck and are far
>> from inexpensive. But'ca know what? They make a great showroom to check
>> things out before you buy from Amazon or NewEgg! (take THAT f*****s!) I
>> don't despise them nearly as much as walmart, but they're getting 
>> closer.
>
> Part of the problem is, back in the day you had a few product lines, 
> and each line had a few models, and they weren't all that different in 
> their features, and so a mom-and-pop or small local chain could manage 
> to stock enough variety of product to keep everyone happy.
>
> Then product lines got too big for a small stocking retailer to keep 
> up with, Joe Blow would come through the door looking for the one with 
> the orange light or the 170-frammis epithelium, and he'd end up down 
> at the big-box store where they had twenty different models from ten 
> different manufacturers on the shelf, and you could pick the one that 
> had the switch here or the switch there (while the helpful sales rep 
> tried to sell you the one with two switches instead of one 'cause it 
> paid him more.)
>
> Now of course we have, for whatever reason, vastly too much product 
> out there for even the big-boxes.   And the narrow (in the case of the 
> small shops) or dubious (in the case of the big-boxes) expertise has 
> been replaced by the Internet hive-mind.
>
> It's really down to (a) products you have to touch before buying (b) 
> stuff you have to have NOW (c) stuff too bulky, heavy, dangerous, or 
> spoilable to ship and (d) retailers who can maintain or develop a 
> specific product niche.
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild at att.net

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Tue Dec  4 13:45:00 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:45:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel
Message-ID: <COL115-W321F83054915394AA0DA58CC470@phx.gbl>

After 25 years of good service, my handy old Dremel is finally giving up the
ghost and needs to be replaced.  Before I ask Santa to bring me one, I thought
Id poll the group for thoughts.  My current one has a flexible shaft attached
to it and hangs by the workbench in my garage. While I do use it occasionally
for light polishing, grinding and shaping, by far the most use it sees is as a
cutoff tool.  I almost always have a cutting wheel on it and find it much
easier for light duty work than a full size air tool.  Given how I use it, it
is tempting to get a flexible shaft tool, and could be persuaded by others
experiences, but do like the versatility of the Dremel with the flexible
attachment.  And, I am certainly not wedded to the Dremel brand, if someone
else makes a better one.

As always, thanks.

Jim

From mbarre at juno.com  Tue Dec  4 13:54:57 2012
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 20:54:57 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel
Message-ID: <20121204.155457.25210.1@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>

Jim Stone wrote: While I do use it occasionally for light polishing, grinding
and shaping, by far the most use it sees is as a
cutoff tool.  I almost always have a cutting wheel on it ... --Mine is still
going strong, but I have to agree, I only seem to use it for small cut off or
intricate grinding so it keeps a cut wheel on it.I found an old B&D flex tool
at a garage sale for a buck recenlty, brought it home, cleaned it up, blew it
out, plugged it in and it runs well. So when the dremel dies, it's replacement
is already onboard! MB

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Dec  4 14:49:16 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:49:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W321F83054915394AA0DA58CC470@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W321F83054915394AA0DA58CC470@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <50BE6FDC.8060100@xxiii.com>

On 12/4/2012 3:45 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> After 25 years of good service, my handy old Dremel is finally giving up the
> ghost and needs to be replaced.  Before I ask Santa to bring me one, I thought

I was at the local Northern Tool last weekend, and they had something 
that looked like an inexpensive Dremel knock-off. Didn't pay much 
attention, since I wasn't in the market but might be worth checking.

-w

From mark at bradakis.com  Tue Dec  4 14:59:44 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:59:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for a new Dremel
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W321F83054915394AA0DA58CC470@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W321F83054915394AA0DA58CC470@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <50BE7250.7020400@bradakis.com>

The last Dremel I bought was a rechargeable cordless one.  It is nice,
but the corded ones have more power, though a bit clunkier.

mjb.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Dec  5 15:13:31 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:13:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re:      Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BE5374.3060602@att.net>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com>
	<50BE5374.3060602@att.net>
Message-ID: <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com>

To tell the truth, I'm more perturbed at Microsoft than I am at the Best 
Buy guy. A lot of that is because I share the same opinion of Best Buy 
employees that most people do--I fully expect if I held up a CD of 
Ke$ha's greatest hits and asked the drone if that would install an OS on 
my laptop that he'd have said yes to that, too. So that he got that 
wrong is expected. I'd have been more surprised had he actually known 
the right answer and cared to give it.

But I've looked over the box my Win8 copy came in, and nowhere does it 
say 'upgrade'. And there wasn't anything on the display, either. There 
were other displays that mentioned 'upgrade', but this one did not. I 
remember that because I wanted to avoid just this exact situation (and I 
knew I didn't have the Vista discs), and I wasn't fully sure that Vista 
qualified for the cheap upgrade, so I just wanted the plain, full, 
stick-it-on-the-hard-drive OS. I got Win8 Pro, and this was the most 
expensive Win8 at the Best Buy I could find, my 'logic' further being 
that I expected the upgrade versions were cheaper, therefore the 
non-upgrade version must be more expensive.

For what it's worth, though, I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, 
"can I install this on a new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or 
copying anything from the old drive?"  I dunno, maybe you got the good 
Best Buy--I think you can correctly assess my (novice) level of computer 
knowledge based on my questions here, and just based on that I'm 
reasonably certain I qualify to manage the Geek Squad operation in that 
particular store.

My plan is let Peter get me an ISO, which I assume will allow me to use 
the discs I have to authenticate the copy of Win8 I have. If that 
doesn't work, I'll assess how determined I am to deal with the Best Buy 
retards to get a 'full' copy or a refund, and if that doesn't work, I'll 
dispute the charge on my credit card and buy a full copy, or else worst 
case suck it up and clone my old drive to the new one. I'm sure the 
process isn't that bad, but I really don't want any of the malware on 
that drive to get on the new drive, hence the purchase of the new drive 
and the new OS and it's proved very difficult to eradicate. There's no 
kill like overkill.

I'll have to do something, though, because the SSD is taking several 
minutes to boot, whereas the old HDD was talking about fifteen seconds 
(both on Win8). I'd expect an SSD to do at least as well, so I'm hoping 
that's an OS issue that will go away when the problems with it are 
corrected.

Scott

On 12/4/2012 2:48 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> As a former tech support/ retail sales guy, I probably would have 
> answered the question the same way the Best Buy person did, if I had 
> been that clerk.  I am standing up for the sales people who generally 
> do know far more than is being assumed here.  Do you have any idea how 
> much Microsoft Windows 8 training Best Buy employees have had in the 
> last few weeks?  Many, many, many hours.  Getting and keeping a job at 
> Best Buy is not easy; I do not agree that they hire idiots, which 
> someone said.

From shochschild at att.net  Wed Dec  5 16:13:24 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:13:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re:  This is why I don't work in IT,
 was:  Re: Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com>
	<50BE5374.3060602@att.net> <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50BFD514.7020605@att.net>

On 12/5/2012 4:13 PM, Scott wrote:
> I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, "can I install this on a 
> new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or copying anything from 
> the old drive?"

And again, the answer to that question is yes, you can.  You have no 
complaint, and no reason to insult the salespeople who helped you.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Dec  5 16:26:13 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:26:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re:  This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BFD514.7020605@att.net>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com>
	<50BE5374.3060602@att.net> <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com>
	<50BFD514.7020605@att.net>
Message-ID: <50BFD815.8000400@gmail.com>

You should tell that to my laptop--it's disagreeing with you.

On 12/5/2012 6:13 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
> On 12/5/2012 4:13 PM, Scott wrote:
>> I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, "can I install this on a 
>> new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or copying anything from 
>> the old drive?"
>
> And again, the answer to that question is yes, you can.  You have no 
> complaint, and no reason to insult the salespeople who helped you.

From shochschild at att.net  Wed Dec  5 16:57:04 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:57:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re:  This is why I don't work in IT,
 was: Re: Entirely not shop related, but...
In-Reply-To: <50BFD815.8000400@gmail.com>
References: <46d25168.1f03fc.13b63250299.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<CA+k5surO-k7TnDxEkwdk3ErVHBB1=Pm8ShxiUz+Oz4ZB2KmWNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BE0E23.2050802@xxiii.com> <50BE2A1F.7090509@milleredp.com>
	<50BE5374.3060602@att.net> <50BFC70B.8030703@gmail.com>
	<50BFD514.7020605@att.net> <50BFD815.8000400@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50BFDF50.4050903@att.net>

I believe that you have a full copy, that the cds that are being sent to 
you will not help, and that all of your problems are due to operator error.

Good luck with all of that...


On 12/5/2012 5:26 PM, Scott wrote:
> You should tell that to my laptop--it's disagreeing with you.
>
> On 12/5/2012 6:13 PM, steve hochschild wrote:
>> On 12/5/2012 4:13 PM, Scott wrote:
>>> I held up the Win8 box to the guy and said, "can I install this on a 
>>> new hard drive on my laptop without cloning or copying anything from 
>>> the old drive?"
>>
>> And again, the answer to that question is yes, you can.  You have no 
>> complaint, and no reason to insult the salespeople who helped you.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild at att.net

From jniolon at att.net  Wed Dec  5 19:57:06 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 20:57:06 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
Message-ID: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>

the shop content is that I'll be out of the shop for several weeks...

after struggling with a bad shoulder for 9 months, feeding it Tylenol and
muscle relaxers that did no good, loosing sleep and being hindered in pretty
much everything I do I broke down , had an MRI and xrays and the diagnosis is
torn rotator cuff on my dominant arm.  Solution is arthroscopic surgery to
repair... 6 weeks in a sling with no use of that arm then rehab and another
3-4 months of limited to finally good use of it...

I've been paying attention to what I do with my left arm (which is pretty much
everything I attempt) and I'm seriously concerned about 6 weeks without that
arm... besides writing and typing and anything mechanical down to brushing my
teeth. I don't see how I can manage without a manservant !  (wife says
womanservant is out of the question ;-)

I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy and
accident prone as I am.  I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this
surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few)  and what exactly were
your limitations and your ways of overcoming.  I know about the sling and the
foam couch cushion under it... and all I read is that that arm doesn't get
raised up AT ALL for a while...  do you have use of your arm from elbow to
fingers IF you keep that shoulder/upper arm stationary ??? even if I had to
strap it to my chest I could possibly manage with the forearm and hand free...
How do you button blue jeans ?  or wash the side of your body that has the
good arm ???   anyway...

I'd love to have some conversation by email or phone with survivors...the
forum certainly isn't the place for it...   anyone want to answer about 600
questions and give me the 411 ??

thanks
John



What every man worth his salt should know how to do.....

Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer
Make a wish come true - for someone else,
keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear
make a child giggle...tell a ghost story
write a love letter, ask for directions

From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Dec  5 20:46:53 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 22:46:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
> I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy and
> accident prone as I am.  I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this
> surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few)  and what exactly were
> your limitations and your ways of overcoming.

I once laid the back of my right hand in the table saw blade.  I had
plenty of time to learn to be ambidextrous.  All the things you
normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your
other hand.  If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet.

Two things made life easy...first, you can tell Windows to swap your
mouse form right-hand to left-hand, so the index finger still does the
main clicking.  And second, keep Post-It Notes or tape handy - you can
stick the paper down while you laboriously try to scrawl a note to
yourself, since you can't hold the paper.

My problem was not as acute as yours, though, I think - I didn't have
the limited range of motion that you will, but there wasn't much point
in moving my arm anyway.  You'll struggle for a few days, and feel a
bit sticky, but you'll adapt.

I'm not sure what I can add to that which will be relevant to your
particular surgery, but I'd be happy to chat if you like - PM me and
I'll send my number.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

P.S.  The two facts I always mention after I've described my
"accident":  The first thing you say is not "Ouch!", but "Man, that
was stupid!"; and when the surgeon rebuilt my fingers, he put a curve
in them such that I can both type and hold a pint glass, so life
pretty much goes on as before...

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Wed Dec  5 21:39:05 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 20:39:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
	<CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50C02169.6090602@frontier.com>

On 12/5/2012 7:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
>   I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this
> >surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few)  and what exactly were
> >your limitations and your ways of overcoming.

I didn't have the same surgery, but mine was somewhat similar.  I had to 
have some bone planned off the socket part of the shoulder joint where 
it was "impinging" on something else.  I had a sling for a week or so 
and then little to no mobility for a couple of weeks, then rehab after 
about three or four weeks.  It was 3 to 4 months before I was doing 
ANYTHING with it at the gym and about a year to 18 months until I was 
back to pre-surgery strength and range of motion.    What I can tell you 
is that shoulder surgery takes a long time to recover from, and you need 
to do EXACTLY what your doc and P.T. tell you to do.  If they say not to 
use it, DON'T USE IT. DAMHIKT.

Also, well before surgery ask your doc if he is planning to use a pain 
pump, and if he says yes, then do some research on the web and discuss 
it with him.  I had one and used it a couple of times and then took it 
out the 3rd or 4th day.  There can be some serious long term 
complications with their use, however, which, fortunately, I haven't 
seen yet.

I already mouse with my left hand due to tendonitis years ago, so that's 
not a problem.

Good luck.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Dec  6 16:29:11 2012
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 18:29:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
	<CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org>

On Dec 5, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>> I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy
and
>> accident prone as I am.  I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this
>> surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few)  and what exactly
were
>> your limitations and your ways of overcoming.
>
> All the things you
> normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your
> other hand.  If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet.

And to that and other bathroom activities, start NOW using your non-dominant
hand, not the first day post-op. You will be spastic at first but you'll
learn.

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Dec  6 20:53:29 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 19:53:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <C39C0579CF8D4D8A999CF82389BBF4D7@EntCentPC>

John,

I had my dominant arm useless and in a sling for about 8 weeks.  You will
become a wizard with your off hand side.  The sling came off in the spring
and while I was not allowed to do much with that arm for many months. I did
manage to play a respectable game of tennis with my weak side arm; although
there was no real serve. <grin>  I did manage to change the generator on my
1960 Triumph TR3 with my strong arm in the sling and it's heavy SOB.  It
took a few hours, but it got done,

Pants - If you can't button them, zip them up and pull that belt firmly.
Watch your wife wiggle into a tight pair of pants and you'll figure out that
laying down on the bed may allow you to button them with one hand. 
Shopping - I bought cases of water and while I could get them into the cart,
I couldn't get them back out and into the trunk, but I always had someone
stop to help get them in the car. 

Don't worry about it.  You will be amazed at how quickly you adapt.  Keep
some wipes handy in the bathroom for the first week.  You may need them.

If you want to talk, pop me an email, but I'm sure you'll figure it out fast
and be surprised with the progress you make and the capabilities you have.

Jack


-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Niolon
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 6:57 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop

the shop content is that I'll be out of the shop for several weeks...

after struggling with a bad shoulder for 9 months, feeding it Tylenol and
muscle relaxers that did no good, loosing sleep and being hindered in pretty
much everything I do I broke down , had an MRI and xrays and the diagnosis
is
torn rotator cuff on my dominant arm.  Solution is arthroscopic surgery to
repair... 6 weeks in a sling with no use of that arm then rehab and another
3-4 months of limited to finally good use of it...

I've been paying attention to what I do with my left arm (which is pretty
much
everything I attempt) and I'm seriously concerned about 6 weeks without that
arm... besides writing and typing and anything mechanical down to brushing
my
teeth. I don't see how I can manage without a manservant !  (wife says
womanservant is out of the question ;-)

I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy
and
accident prone as I am.  I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this
surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few)  and what exactly
were
your limitations and your ways of overcoming.  I know about the sling and
the
foam couch cushion under it... and all I read is that that arm doesn't get
raised up AT ALL for a while...  do you have use of your arm from elbow to
fingers IF you keep that shoulder/upper arm stationary ??? even if I had to
strap it to my chest I could possibly manage with the forearm and hand
free...
How do you button blue jeans ?  or wash the side of your body that has the
good arm ???   anyway...

I'd love to have some conversation by email or phone with survivors...the
forum certainly isn't the place for it...   anyone want to answer about 600
questions and give me the 411 ??

thanks
John



What every man worth his salt should know how to do.....

Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer
Make a wish come true - for someone else,
keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear
make a child giggle...tell a ghost story
write a love letter, ask for directions
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Fri Dec  7 00:49:24 2012
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 07:49:24 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org>
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
	<CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com>
	<8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net>

The dominant hand thing is just what you get used to. In the old days, 
left-handedness was not allowed - my left handed grandfather had to 
learn to write with his right hand. Also, although I am right handed, I 
always brush my teeth with my left hand - this is because the cold tap 
in my parents house is (as is the standard) on the right side of the 
basin. So I grew up driving the tap with my right hand and brushing with 
my left - I find it really awkward to swap.
Neil

On 06/12/2012 23:29, Jim Franklin wrote:
> On Dec 5, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>> I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a clumsy
> and
>>> accident prone as I am.  I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this
>>> surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few)  and what exactly
> were
>>> your limitations and your ways of overcoming.
>> All the things you
>> normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your
>> other hand.  If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet.
> And to that and other bathroom activities, start NOW using your non-dominant
> hand, not the first day post-op. You will be spastic at first but you'll
> learn.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Dec  7 11:10:26 2012
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 12:10:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net>
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406>
	<CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com>
	<8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org>
	<50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <CA+7Nz3pB8kAaYZdvtnVWKtwZx-go4hc+yaw3SvM-uvB6EuNTKg@mail.gmail.com>

I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest I've seen to
being ambidextrious;  he'd write with which ever hand was closest to the
ticket and I've seen him with a pen in each hand checking invoices.
I confirmed my idea later when I heard he was not only a switch hitter but
a *switch pitcher *on his softball team . . that's scary!


On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Neil Sherry <neiljsherry at talktalk.net>wrote:

> The dominant hand thing is just what you get used to. In the old days,
> left-handedness was not allowed - my left handed grandfather had to learn
> to write with his right hand. Also, although I am right handed, I always
> brush my teeth with my left hand - this is because the cold tap in my
> parents house is (as is the standard) on the right side of the basin. So I
> grew up driving the tap with my right hand and brushing with my left - I
> find it really awkward to swap.
> Neil
>
>
> On 06/12/2012 23:29, Jim Franklin wrote:
>
>> On Dec 5, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
>>
>>  On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know lots of you guys are as active and probably a few that are a
>>>> clumsy
>>>>
>>> and
>>
>>> accident prone as I am.  I'm wondering if any of you guys have had this
>>>> surgery on their dominant arm ( surely there are a few)  and what
>>>> exactly
>>>>
>>> were
>>
>>> your limitations and your ways of overcoming.
>>>>
>>> All the things you
>>> normally do with your dominant hand, you can learn to do with your
>>> other hand.  If not, I'd still be sitting on the toilet.
>>>
>> And to that and other bathroom activities, start NOW using your
>> non-dominant
>> hand, not the first day post-op. You will be spastic at first but you'll
>> learn.
>> ______________________________**_________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
>> options/shop-talk/neiljsherry@**talktalk.net<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net>
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com>

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Dec  7 11:22:32 2012
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 18:22:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <CA+7Nz3pB8kAaYZdvtnVWKtwZx-go4hc+yaw3SvM-uvB6EuNTKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1872275716.308718.1354904552293.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
> To: "Neil Sherry" <neiljsherry at talktalk.net>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 12:10:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
> I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest I've seen
> to
> being ambidextrious; he'd write with which ever hand was closest to
> the
> ticket and I've seen him with a pen in each hand checking invoices.
> I confirmed my idea later when I heard he was not only a switch hitter
> but
> a *switch pitcher *on his softball team . . that's scary!

"I just hired a new switch-hitter.  He's completely amphibious."  - Casey Stengel

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

From bobkegel at comcast.net  Fri Dec  7 11:31:10 2012
From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 10:31:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net>
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406><CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com><8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org>
	<50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <623401AF7BC948E594007F6CA8C6F2C0@BigBlack>

On Thursday, December 06, 2012 23:49, Neil Sherry wrote

> my left handed grandfather had to learn to write with his right hand.

As did mine. Family lore says he would irritate his teachers, when writing 
on the blackboard, by starting with his left hand and switching to his right 
in mid sentence.

Bob Kegel 

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Dec  7 12:55:08 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 11:55:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <CA+7Nz3pB8kAaYZdvtnVWKtwZx-go4hc+yaw3SvM-uvB6EuNTKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA.73.00778.C9942C05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest 
> I've seen to being ambidextrious;  he'd write with which ever 
> hand was closest to the ticket

My late wife was the same way.  Not surprisingly, her handwriting was
different with each hand, which got us in trouble with the bank more than
once.  Finally had to fill out two signature cards, one lefty and one
righty.

On buttoning pants, my suggestion is to pick up some that don't need to be
buttoned.  Stretch sweat pants are perfectly in fashion when worn with an
arm sling.  And I can't button mine even with just my dominant hand!

-- Randall 

From phoenix722 at comcast.net  Fri Dec  7 19:38:41 2012
From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 18:38:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
References: <446FE392649E4D2DB5A014FD6B2B7793@john5043a2d406><CAO8Q7CP5CdEaY-bkG-_EidDnvcuvtGmVcB0VuGNU0aki3CqkQw@mail.gmail.com><8831C95A-55DB-4719-9BD0-58DA42B1DF63@groupwbench.org>
	<50C19F84.1020508@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <0007E18A26EA41DAB0FF8E437DD8D592@Mike>

I'm right-handed, but I feel more comfortable dealing cards with my left 
hand, and I use my left hand for the computer mouse.  But the latter is 
because this leaves my right hand free to work the 10-key pad and the Enter 
keys, which all are on the right side of the keyboard.  I've done it so long 
I have trouble using the mouse with my right hand.  You can train yourself 
to do anything.

I remember reading about a grad student who made special eyeglasses that 
used a prism to invert the view.  He wore these all the time for six months, 
and found that he could get along in the world without any problems, as his 
brain had adjusted.  Then he quit wearing them, and it took another three 
months to get back to normal.

Mike
==================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neil Sherry" <neiljsherry at talktalk.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] out of the shop


> The dominant hand thing is just what you get used to. In the old days, 
> left-handedness was not allowed - my left handed grandfather had to learn 
> to write with his right hand. Also, although I am right handed, I always 
> brush my teeth with my left hand - this is because the cold tap in my 
> parents house is (as is the standard) on the right side of the basin. So I 
> grew up driving the tap with my right hand and brushing with my left - I 
> find it really awkward to swap.
> Neil 

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Fri Dec  7 20:00:18 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 19:00:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] out of the shop
In-Reply-To: <FA.73.00778.C9942C05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <FA.73.00778.C9942C05@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <50C2AD42.9080404@frontier.com>

I had an instructor in the Navy who could write on a blackboard 
(remember them?) with either hand, but when he used his left hand 
everything was backwards/mirror image.  He did it mostly to annoy us.

Since I started teaching wood shop I have learned to do most manual 
tasks (sawing, chiseling, operating a lathe, etc)  with either hand so I 
can demonstrate with what ever hand is most convenient with respect to 
where the student is standing.
On 12/7/2012 11:55 AM, Randall wrote:
> I had a young counter sales person once who was the closest
> >I've seen to being ambidextrious;  he'd write with which ever
> >hand was closest to the ticket

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Dec  8 10:52:23 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 12:52:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Very handy (car-parts-related) websites I found
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9UdzAnh_uCKq2ObPaeL91KtE5qAc0QEUS987VBKA5A67w@mail.gmail.com>

I had o idea these existed:

www.findpart.org : look up any OEM part number
www.opposedforces.com : very detailed illustrated Subaru parts catalogs.

Doug

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Wed Dec 12 11:02:32 2012
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:02:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
Message-ID: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>

I have a Garmin Nuvi 255w and it does one annoying thing that I haven't
figured out how to beat. I hope the crowd intelligence of this group can
help. Let me give you a recent example...

 

We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our
destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of
Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near Nashville
toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a
very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have
been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around
Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on "shortest
distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is
there any other way to avoid downtown congestion?

 

Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?"

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Dec 12 11:10:05 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:10:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diverter valves
Message-ID: <OF09269D60.18A5FBB4-ON85257AD2.00648D5F-85257AD2.0064D68F@mail.megageek.com>

Can someone please tell me why diverter valves are built to leak?  I mean, 
why don't they have a ball valve on them so all the water / pressure goes 
to the shower?

Is there a reason I can't add the ball valve myself?

TIA.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Dec 12 11:37:25 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:37:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diverter valves
In-Reply-To: <OF09269D60.18A5FBB4-ON85257AD2.00648D5F-85257AD2.0064D68F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF09269D60.18A5FBB4-ON85257AD2.00648D5F-85257AD2.0064D68F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9Wsug5k2qAopD6-2oJowMNS_iOJtDn5ib8UGsVFxu2a+A@mail.gmail.com>

In the past, when I had a leaky one, I replaced the entire spout/diverter
assembly, and the leak
went away.  Unless you have a high-end matched set of fixtures, the spouts
are cheap and easy to replace.

Doug

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 1:10 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Can someone please tell me why diverter valves are built to leak?  I mean,
> why don't they have a ball valve on them so all the water / pressure goes
> to the shower?
>
> Is there a reason I can't add the ball valve myself?

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Dec 12 12:00:31 2012
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:00:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <1931616499.373887.1355338831913.JavaMail.root@sz0220a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> Is
> there any other way to avoid downtown congestion?
> 
> Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?"

You could also look at a map.  If not a paper map, I look at the map in my iPhone.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
pethier at comcast.net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Dec 12 11:55:18 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:55:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand
Message-ID: <OF976F3E5A.202C07B8-ON85257AD2.0068684F-85257AD2.0068FA66@mail.megageek.com>

I was thinking about getting one of these...

http://tinyurl.com/bdyteqv 

Does anyone have any experaince with these Electric Infrared Quartz 
Fireplace Heater Media Entertainment TV Stands?

I would love feedback.  Mostly, how much heat do you really feel?

TIA.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Dec 12 12:10:13 2012
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:10:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com>

Our Nuvi (I'm not sure which model) has a traffic receiver and can be set to
avoid traffic.  Invaluable if you travel in places plagued by gridlock.

-Paul

On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:02 PM, "Gerald Brazil" <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com>
wrote:

> I have a Garmin Nuvi 255w and it does one annoying thing that I haven't
> figured out how to beat. I hope the crowd intelligence of this group can
> help. Let me give you a recent example...
>
>
> We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our
> destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of
> Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near
Nashville
> toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a
> very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have
> been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around
> Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on
"shortest
> distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is
> there any other way to avoid downtown congestion?
>
> Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?"

From jem at milleredp.com  Wed Dec 12 12:15:02 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:15:02 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
	<0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com>

On 12/12/2012 11:10 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> Our Nuvi (I'm not sure which model) has a traffic receiver and can be set to
> avoid traffic.  Invaluable if you travel in places plagued by gridlock.

GPS signals alone will not help you with traffic congestion.

Google Maps on my HTC (Android) has 'layers' that will permit you to add 
traffic color-coding, gas-station locations, etc. to the map display. 
It's proven fairly accurate in my experience.

This of course relies on a data connection, not just GPS satellites.

John.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Dec 12 12:44:08 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:44:08 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
	<0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com>
	<50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <001501cdd8a1$0d93d9a0$28bb8ce0$@ameritech.net>

Google traffic is vastly more useful than the alleged traffic that I get in
my Garmin Nuvi 3590.  The traffic reports in the Nuvi are (in my
observation, in Chicago) at most 25% accurate when they warn of traffic.
Accuracy is far less than that when considering actual  traffic jams that it
does not report.

Google traffic, OTOH, seems to be at least 75% accurate both ways - there is
usually traffic when it reports it, and it usually reports actual traffic I
find.  Speed of reporting seems good too - I've found new traffic jams on
roads previously clear, and watched to see when the jam appears on the
traffic map.  Maybe 5-10 minutes the couple of times I've seen that happen.

Also - with lots of touchscreen pushing you can view the traffic along your
route on the Garmin, but then you need to return to your map to use it.
Google traffic on my Android phone is there all the time if I want it - just
turn the traffic layer on.  Can't do that on the Garmin.  I wish Garmin
would just buy Google's traffic.

I really wonder how Garmin got to be the "standard" for GPS units.  Based on
my use of my new 3590 LMT (their top automotive unit) and an older C60
hiking unit I received as a gift and used in the car occasionally for a few
years, Garmin is a disappointment.  Clumsy to use, poor manuals, and just
not reliable.  If I ever decide to buy a dedicated aircraft GPS, I'll buy
any other brand than a Garmin.

Karl

From jnew at hazelden.ca  Wed Dec 12 12:56:56 2012
From: jnew at hazelden.ca (John P. New)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:56:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand
In-Reply-To: <OF976F3E5A.202C07B8-ON85257AD2.0068684F-85257AD2.0068FA66@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF976F3E5A.202C07B8-ON85257AD2.0068684F-85257AD2.0068FA66@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <8443265.3vqKbBCRQI@johnpc>

Eric,

I bought one similar to this for my mother a couple of years ago. It's 
functional (her TV sits on top of it) and, depending on what you enjoy, the 
flame effect can add a bit of "emotional warmth" to a room (I prefer wood 
fireplaces, so it doesn't do much for me, but my mother seems to enjoy it).

My mother's has a built-in fan and it does put out a lot of heat, but of 
course this varies by model/manufacturer and the room in which the unit sits 
is fairly small. Hers is 110V.

The only thing I can say is that the controls are less than desirable: the 
remote control is annoying because it only turns the heating and light 
elements on or off; the fan speed and heat intensity controls are on the unit 
itself behind a front panel next to the floor, which is very inconvenient for 
anyone except children. It's like having a TV remote that changes channels but 
not volume.

Like any heating appliance, it can be dangerous for small children to be too 
close, but since mine are older, I can't recall if my mother's unit is 
particularly hazardous or not.

John New


On December 12, 2012 01:55:18 PM eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I was thinking about getting one of these...
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/bdyteqv
> 
> Does anyone have any experaince with these Electric Infrared Quartz
> Fireplace Heater Media Entertainment TV Stands?
> 
> I would love feedback.  Mostly, how much heat do you really feel?

From phoenix722 at comcast.net  Wed Dec 12 13:49:44 2012
From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:49:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand
References: <OF976F3E5A.202C07B8-ON85257AD2.0068684F-85257AD2.0068FA66@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <DE0B0A501469424F82C782E3EA504A3D@Mike>

My experience is that they semi-pretty to look at, but do not come close to 
looking like a real fire.  A fan is necessary for giving you any heat.

Mike
=================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:55 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand


>I was thinking about getting one of these...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bdyteqv
>
> Does anyone have any experaince with these Electric Infrared Quartz
> Fireplace Heater Media Entertainment TV Stands?
>
> I would love feedback.  Mostly, how much heat do you really feel?
>
> TIA.
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/phoenix722 at comcast.net

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 12 14:34:43 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:34:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
	<0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com>
	<50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <50C8F873.4080308@gmail.com>

I can't help with the Nuvi--I have one, but I used it for a few days 
before I decided Google Maps on my phone was infinitely better.

Like John says, there's a 'traffic' layer. I resolutely ignored it for 
at least a year, not trusting it, until it tried to route me off an 
interstate once and I ignored it (stupid computer). I spent four hours 
at a dead stop on the interstate while a co-worker who followed its 
instructions (he didn't know there was an interstate there...really) had 
almost no delay. I follow its advice on routing now, or at least check 
the traffic 'layer'.

Other than that, I do like Phil said and just use it as a map. I do that 
for the very same reason mentioned in the original post--I was trying to 
go through Nashville once and it took me through the city on the 
interstate when I wanted to go around. I couldn't ever figure out how to 
make it do that, and I didn't see an 'avoid cities' option, so I just 
use Google Maps on my phone like I'd have used a paper map years ago. 
Except with traffic congestion noted. Nashville and...I'm trying to 
remember the other city--Richmond, maybe?--are particularly awful for 
that. I want to just go around them, Google wants me to drive through them.

On 12/12/2012 2:15 PM, John Miller wrote:
> GPS signals alone will not help you with traffic congestion.
>
> Google Maps on my HTC (Android) has 'layers' that will permit you to 
> add traffic color-coding, gas-station locations, etc. to the map 
> display. It's proven fairly accurate in my experience.
>
> This of course relies on a data connection, not just GPS satellites.

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Dec 12 14:56:49 2012
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:56:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric fireplace / TV Stand
Message-ID: <0MEX007X5UERBKQ0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

As for your actual question, the website says 1500 watts.  The 
efficiency of electric heating elements doesn't really vary.  It's 
physics, actually.  So I would expect that it would put out pretty 
much the same amount of  heat as  the other 1500 watt heaters on the 
shelf at Home Depot.  I don't know how to better quantify what you 
really feel.  Maybe try to borrow some other 1500 watt heater and see 
if it works for you.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 01:55 PM 12/12/2012, eric at megageek.com wrote:


>I would love feedback.  Mostly, how much heat do you really feel?

From tputland at charter.net  Wed Dec 12 15:29:01 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:29:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones
Message-ID: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>

Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones?
thanks
tim

From shochschild at att.net  Wed Dec 12 15:38:03 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:38:03 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones
In-Reply-To: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50C9074B.1090907@att.net>

I have been a loyal and very satisfied Virgin Mobile customer for nearly 
10 years.  Phones start at $10, uses Sprint's network.  They have no 
contracts, and two plans.  Check them out at http://virginmobile.com/

On 12/12/2012 4:29 PM, Tim wrote:
> Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones?
> thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shochschild at att.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Dec 12 15:45:53 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:45:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones
In-Reply-To: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9UevaamU+Q1v2e7VDffCKfSRe8mX3uu3QoQDcQW3thh+g@mail.gmail.com>

I got a couple of Tracfone burners for my mother in law and a friend of
hers when they visited from overseas. They cost only seven dollars each!
They worked fine, and the minutes were not expensive.
If I was traveling and I lost my "real" phone, I would pop into the nearest
CVS, Walgreens, etc., plop down $7.99 for one, and be back in communication
in a few minutes.

Doug
On Dec 12, 2012 5:29 PM, "Tim" <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones?
> thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Dec 12 15:51:11 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:51:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones
In-Reply-To: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9X8CSH0eUL8Mhy89esOXZ424M23+mKLwAcZYF0OMEcgdQ@mail.gmail.com>

BTW, the only prepaid carrier that uses Verizon's network is Page Plus.
If you have an old Verizon phone lying around, you can use it with them.

Doug

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 12 15:52:49 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:52:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9X8CSH0eUL8Mhy89esOXZ424M23+mKLwAcZYF0OMEcgdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<CAOtbU9X8CSH0eUL8Mhy89esOXZ424M23+mKLwAcZYF0OMEcgdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50C90AC1.4070101@gmail.com>

Do the prepaid phones need to have E911 capability? I've got every old 
cell phone I've ever had in a drawer somewhere--it'd be cool to rock the 
Kyocera 6135 still.

On 12/12/2012 5:51 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
> BTW, the only prepaid carrier that uses Verizon's network is Page Plus.
> If you have an old Verizon phone lying around, you can use it with them.
>
> Doug

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 12 15:59:53 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:59:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <001501cdd8a1$0d93d9a0$28bb8ce0$@ameritech.net>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
	<0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com>
	<50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com>
	<001501cdd8a1$0d93d9a0$28bb8ce0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1355353193.91408.YahooMailNeo@web140001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----

> From: Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:44 PM
>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
> 
(snip)
 If I
ever decide to buy a dedicated aircraft GPS, I'll buy
> any other brand than a
Garmin.
> 
(snip)
In terms of aircraft GPS, the competition is pretty good
right now. Based on my experience, the Aviation Garmin units are more
intuitive than the other manufacturers in doing everything. Flight Plans,
moving maps, deviations, etc. I've been impressed with some of the stuff
coming out though. Each manufacturer trying to one up the other. 

I've never
warmed up to any of the car units, because of the lack of detail when zoomed
out. I went from a computer based mapping with GPS to my phone and have pretty
much used that since. The maps and traffic are more accurate in my experience
since the Google maps are in the 'cloud' as opposed to being loaded in a local
file. I may move to an Android phone next year to replace my 5 year old
smartphone, but haven't decided yet. Waiting on the Samsung S4 to be released.
A new phone is a want not a need. :)

B

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Dec 12 16:17:13 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:17:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones
In-Reply-To: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50C91079.8080508@xxiii.com>

On 12/12/2012 5:29 PM, Tim wrote:
> Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones?
> thanks

Off topic, but I'm curious too! (pls copy me or list, unless anyone is 
really opposed to the addl traffic.)

I have a Virgin Mobile "Pay Lo" phone. They offer everything from a $15 
or $20 flip phone, which I have, up to smart phones. Payment plans are 
on different scales: you can get cheap minutes (0.05 - 0.10) but there 
is a minimum you have to spend every month, or minutes may not carry 
over. On the other end of the scale (what I'm doing) you pay a big ol' 
0.20/min, but you only have to put a lousy $20 every 3 months on the 
thing, then the accumulated minutes roll over forever. Their web site is 
easy to use and has all the details, and their support people have been 
decent to deal with.

I only keep it around for emergency use, so a dirt cheap phone and $80 a 
year in service works for me. It blows me away how many folks are 
spending $1,000-ish annually for fancy phones.

Virgin Mobile is on Sprint's network, and the coverage is not the 
greatest. Got it through Best Buy, who also demanded an ID and some 
personal info -- possibly a turn off if you're looking for anonymity, 
but there are work arounds there I suppose.

More people around here (western North Carolina) have Verizon -- great 
coverage, even in the mountains and some of the fastest  4G in the 
country (40+ Mbs). Their pre-paid plans are pretty dang expensive also, 
AND they have something like a "$1 per day, each day you make or receive 
a call."

One of the BIG KICK ASS deals (IMO) that I've been trying to turn 
friends onto is Verizon's "Home Phone Connect". As an alternative to a 
land-line, they offer cell service in a box you can use with your 
traditional home phones. You get a black box looks a lot like a wi-fi 
router, has a cell radio in it, 2 RJ11 jacks on the back for phones, and 
electronics to drive them. And a rechargeable battery to keep it alive 
in power outages. I have a 3 handset cordless Panasonic set plugged in. 
Then the other line plugs into the wall jack and back-feeds ring tone to 
the other jacks in the house for a few hard-wired phones. Just 
disconnect from papa-bell and splice all your house wiring together. I 
am told the sound quality is better than the AT&T land-line I used to 
have. Apparently the shitty sound quality on cells is due to the phone 
and not the network (I HATE cell phone sound quality.) Caveat! -- there 
is some major digital compression going on, optimized for human voice. 
Music on hold sounds garbled, and you can not run a modem or fax over 
it, and some home alarm services may not work.

Kicker -- it's only $20 a month, plus tax and fees (mine totals like 
$23.86) for unlimited local and long distance calling. Or if you have 
Verizon mobiles, you can share minutes with them (including unlimited 
time plans) and get it for only $10 a month!!!!!

-Wayne   ( !#@!$  AT&T !!!!!!!)

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 12 17:08:24 2012
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:08:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <50C91C78.70809@earthlink.net>

Gerald - Lots of us share your annoyance with Garmin.  I have a Nuvi 
(265 I think).   I always try and look at a map first.  I also use 
fastest time setting, but for me, it thinks Pacific Coast Highway 
through Long Beach, CA with traffic lights and congestion is faster than 
driving a little bit further on the freeway at 75mph (non-peak traffic).

I think the issue is that it ignores red light stoppage time and assumes 
you will travel the speed limit unless there is a traffic delay.

I've also noticed that Garmin traffic tends to lag behind reality. When 
I'm going home at the tail end of traffic, I tend to ignore Garmin's 
warnings about congestion ahead, but pay more attention when traffic 
starts to back up.

Before leaving work, I normally check traffic on Google Maps as Los 
Angeles traffic is a mess, but I have yet to move to a smart phone, so 
Ms. Nuvi still keeps me company.

If I could make another reprogramming suggestion to the GPS 
manufactures, I'd also have then say "you missed the turn.  Make a 
U-turn now."  Instead, it tries to route me on a collection of streets 
to drive around the block.

Brian

On 12/12/2012 10:02 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> I have a Garmin Nuvi 255w and it does one annoying thing that I haven't
> figured out how to beat. I hope the crowd intelligence of this group can
> help. Let me give you a recent example...
>
>   
>
> We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our
> destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of
> Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near Nashville
> toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a
> very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have
> been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around
> Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on "shortest
> distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is
> there any other way to avoid downtown congestion?
>
>   
>
> Is the only solution."buy a more expensive GPS?"
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 12 17:14:41 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:14:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <50C91C78.70809@earthlink.net>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
	<50C91C78.70809@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <50C91DF1.9090505@gmail.com>

Maybe a dozen years ago, I had a GPS unit do just that--it got stuck in 
a 'loop' when I missed an interstate exit. It had me exit at the next 
ramp, get back on the interstate going the opposite direction, then off 
at the next exit and head back in the original direction. It is a 
testament to my intelligence that I only followed its directions for two 
loops before I decided to ignore it (on the third loop). I read after 
that that early GPS systems were prone to that sort of thing.

On 12/12/2012 7:08 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
> If I could make another reprogramming suggestion to the GPS 
> manufactures, I'd also have then say "you missed the turn.  Make a 
> U-turn now."  Instead, it tries to route me on a collection of streets 
> to drive around the block.
>
> Brian

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Wed Dec 12 19:22:07 2012
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:22:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <20121213022207.GA33765@sackheads.org>

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 01:02:32PM -0500, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> We were traveling northbound on I 65 headed toward Nashville, TN. Our
> destination for the evening was White House, TN, about 15 miles north of
> Nashville. I had my settings set to "fastest time". As we got near Nashville
> toward the end of evening rush the "Lady-in-the Box" routed me through a
> very busy downtown Nashville with 2 or 3 expressway changes. It would have
> been a lot easier on my nerves to just stay on I 65 and skirt around
> Nashville and wind up where I wanted. I think if I had been set on "shortest
> distance" I would have probably got the same result but I am not sure. Is
> there any other way to avoid downtown congestion?

My nuvi 1490 will do the same thing when set to "fastest time".  

Example: As I approach my destination in Lexington KY from I-75S, the nuvi will 
tell me to exit the interstate early and take 6-7 miles of curvy 2-lane country 
roads featuring stop signs, a blind curve and the occasional horse trailer.  
Garmin's route easily adds 15 minutes onto the trip versus simply staying on 
the interstate at 70mph for another 4 exits (maybe 10 miles).  And that's 
assuming the weather is good.  

Granted, Garmin's route is prettier but I didn't tell Garmin to choose 
the prettiest route...

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Wed Dec 12 20:09:32 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:09:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] prepaid phones
In-Reply-To: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <2b3290d0.11d7d7.13b913c3ace.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50C946EC.7040809@frontier.com>

My wife and I have had Tracfones for several years.  It costs us about 
$100 a year to add minutes and I have a ton of minutes. Neither of us 
are big cell phone users, and we don't have cell service out where we 
live unless I wander around out in the driveway to see if I can get one 
or two bars to come up, sometimes.  My wife never even programmed the VM 
into her phone.  We both have the cheapest (free) phones they have.   
Needless to say we don't text at all.

I have black Western Electric Model 500 rotary phones in the office and 
out in the shoppe, although I did buy a little plug in keypad so I can 
play phone tree hell when necessary.


On 12/12/2012 2:29 PM, Tim wrote:
> Anyone here have any experience with prepaid / "burner" phones?
> thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From Bob at texmog.com  Sun Dec 16 21:04:20 2012
From: Bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:04:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another wandering off-topic.....GPS
In-Reply-To: <001501cdd8a1$0d93d9a0$28bb8ce0$@ameritech.net>
References: <006d01cdd892$dcf43870$96dca950$@cablespeed.com>
	<0643703E-F2D0-423C-AC13-49BF57DC1EC5@gmail.com>
	<50C8D7B6.6020207@milleredp.com>
	<001501cdd8a1$0d93d9a0$28bb8ce0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3F23F591-38D1-4159-8083-C3D4F6F71D61@texmog.com>

I've solved the issue of routing through the middle of town two ways,  I'll
set a waypoint on the loop, or I'll simply remember to take the loop and let
the old girl b*t*h at me until I have shown her who is boss and she changes
the route to how I want to go.

Bob
( note: the "she" is  the Garmin voice NOT my wife.) Whee saved that one in
the nick of time! )


Sent from my iPad

On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:44 PM, "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> Google traffic is vastly more useful than the alleged traffic that I get in
> my Garmin Nuvi 3590.  The traffic reports in the Nuvi are (in my
> observation, in Chicago) at most 25% accurate when they warn of traffic.
> Accuracy is far less than that when considering actual  traffic jams that
it
> does not report.
>
> Google traffic, OTOH, seems to be at least 75% accurate both ways - there
is
> usually traffic when it reports it, and it usually reports actual traffic I
> find.  Speed of reporting seems good too - I've found new traffic jams on
> roads previously clear, and watched to see when the jam appears on the
> traffic map.  Maybe 5-10 minutes the couple of times I've seen that happen.
>
> Also - with lots of touchscreen pushing you can view the traffic along your
> route on the Garmin, but then you need to return to your map to use it.
> Google traffic on my Android phone is there all the time if I want it -
just
> turn the traffic layer on.  Can't do that on the Garmin.  I wish Garmin
> would just buy Google's traffic.
>
> I really wonder how Garmin got to be the "standard" for GPS units.  Based
on
> my use of my new 3590 LMT (their top automotive unit) and an older C60
> hiking unit I received as a gift and used in the car occasionally for a few
> years, Garmin is a disappointment.  Clumsy to use, poor manuals, and just
> not reliable.  If I ever decide to buy a dedicated aircraft GPS, I'll buy
> any other brand than a Garmin.
>
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bob at texmog.com

From jniolon at att.net  Mon Dec 17 19:00:41 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 20:00:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas
Message-ID: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>

I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and is
now free standing)  that I use at Christmas to warm my deck during gatherings.
The deck is screened and wrapped in poly and with the heater it will stay
around 65-70 inside at 35-40 outside... good enough for the smokers and the
folks that are tired of the crowd.

Every year I drag it to the deck with a couple tanks of propane  and every
year I drag it back in storage... 40 bucks lighter for the propane.  As I set
up this year I finally realized that I had an unlimited supply of nat gas 10
feet away at the gas grill...  I'm about to become a convert !

Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION  on this heater.  Not one to be
dissuaded by technical knowledge, common sense and other hokum, I'm on a quest
to convert...

Anyone got any ideas ???  I haven't taken it apart yet... it has five blocks
that are lit as the control knob is turned up (low, med, high... 1 block,3
block, 5 block respectively)  I would think a orifice change (if it's
removable) and maybe a gas valve (if it has one).   Anybody see how this can
blow up in my face ???

I'm open to all conversations... I'm not the best gas guru, but I can make a
leak free joint !

thanks
John


What every man worth his salt should know how to do.....

Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer
Make a wish come true - for someone else,
keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear
make a child giggle...tell a ghost story
write a love letter, ask for directions

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Dec 17 21:36:56 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:36:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas
In-Reply-To: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>
References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <50CFF2E8.9060000@xxiii.com>

On 12/17/2012 9:00 PM, John Niolon wrote:
> I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and is
> .. Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION  on this heater.  Not one to be

Really?! I thought that was a DESA brand, and they went belly up a few 
years ago. Pretty sure they made the gas (LP) logs in my place. Maybe 
someone bought out the brand names -- oh well, not important.

There is usually some kinda brass orifice that meters the gas flow that 
can be swapped out. LP runs like 2 or 3 PSI, and natural gas about 0.25 
or 0.5, IIRC. (May be WAY off there, but the pressures are a bunch 
different.) I'd google the part or model number and see if you can find 
anyone selling parts for it. Sears.com and AppliancePartPros.com are my 
first go-to sites for parts. There's a good chance the manufacturer 
originally sold conversion parts for it, and you can still buy them. May 
even be some carry over or interchangeability between brands.

Don't know of any other way to reliably convert. Unless you had some 
good specs and a way to precisely machine new orifice(s) for it (not 
totally unthinkable for this crowd.)

> Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ???

Uuhhmm... yeah. Pretty readily and literally!

-w

From jmarton at us.ibm.com  Mon Dec 17 21:53:31 2012
From: jmarton at us.ibm.com (Jim Marton Jr)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:53:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas
In-Reply-To: <50CFF2E8.9060000@xxiii.com>
References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>
	<50CFF2E8.9060000@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <OF4C9A97FC.9EB6AC89-ON85257AD8.001AA03D-85257AD8.001ADF4C@us.ibm.com>

I've converted a Big Easy oil less fryer and a patio heater from LP to
natural gas.  Not that hard.  Other than connecting to just gas line, all
you have to do is figure out what size to drill out the orifice.  You will
need a set of number drills.

Jim




From:	Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
To:	shop-talk at autox.team.net, jniolon at att.net,
Date:	12/17/2012 11:38 PM
Subject:	Re: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas
Sent by:	shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net



On 12/17/2012 9:00 PM, John Niolon wrote:
> I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs
and is
> .. Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION  on this heater.  Not
one to be

Really?! I thought that was a DESA brand, and they went belly up a few
years ago. Pretty sure they made the gas (LP) logs in my place. Maybe
someone bought out the brand names -- oh well, not important.

There is usually some kinda brass orifice that meters the gas flow that
can be swapped out. LP runs like 2 or 3 PSI, and natural gas about 0.25
or 0.5, IIRC. (May be WAY off there, but the pressures are a bunch
different.) I'd google the part or model number and see if you can find
anyone selling parts for it. Sears.com and AppliancePartPros.com are my
first go-to sites for parts. There's a good chance the manufacturer
originally sold conversion parts for it, and you can still buy them. May
even be some carry over or interchangeability between brands.

Don't know of any other way to reliably convert. Unless you had some
good specs and a way to precisely machine new orifice(s) for it (not
totally unthinkable for this crowd.)

> Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ???

Uuhhmm... yeah. Pretty readily and literally!

-w
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmarton at us.ibm.com

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of graycol.gif]

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 22:40:46 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:40:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas
In-Reply-To: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>
References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <50D001DE.1000909@gmail.com>

A long time ago a neighbor converted the permanently-installed grill on 
his porch from LP to N.G. Himself. The house didn't go boom so I assume 
he did it okay. Everything I've ever heard is that it's just a jet 
swap--our grill came with two screw-in 'regulators' (jets, I 
assume)--depending on which fuel you used, you put in the appropriate 
one. But having said that...

On 12/17/2012 9:00 PM, John Niolon wrote:
> Anybody see how this can blow up in my face ???
>

That's probably the idea I'd be afraid of. This'd be one of those things 
I'd be dead-nuts certain about before I did it. I'm sure if you couldn't 
buy the part you could have one machined up...but the consequences if it 
was wrong plus the cost and hassle of having that part machined...  I'd 
probably just shop for a new heater.

From arvidj at visi.com  Tue Dec 18 02:28:53 2012
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 03:28:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas
In-Reply-To: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>
References: <2ABCB490F2C943EC887841C1427097CD@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <C6D07474AE8E4DDF8ABE10EA49BBECEE@HP62011>

Can it be done ... I assume so ...

http://www.joppaglass.com/burner/lowp_chrt.html

http://www.masterdist.net/glowarm/infraredheaters/index.html

As other have suggested "should it be done" is the real question.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/gas-kitchen-appliances-dryers-bbqs/408085-drilling-orifice-convert-propane-gas-natural-gas.html

http://www.carlsgrilltalk.com/contents/index.php?view=article&catid=4&id=2%3Alp-to-natural-gas-conversion&format=pdf&option=com_content&Itemid=16


-----Original Message----- 
From: John Niolon
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:00 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] converting a propane heater to nat gas

I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and 
is
now free standing)  that I use at Christmas to warm my deck during 
gatherings.
The deck is screened and wrapped in poly and with the heater it will stay
around 65-70 inside at 35-40 outside... good enough for the smokers and the
folks that are tired of the crowd.

Every year I drag it to the deck with a couple tanks of propane  and every
year I drag it back in storage... 40 bucks lighter for the propane.  As I 
set
up this year I finally realized that I had an unlimited supply of nat gas 10
feet away at the gas grill...  I'm about to become a convert !

Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION  on this heater.  Not one to 
be
dissuaded by technical knowledge, common sense and other hokum, I'm on a 
quest
to convert...

Anyone got any ideas ???  I haven't taken it apart yet... it has five blocks
that are lit as the control knob is turned up (low, med, high... 1 block,3
block, 5 block respectively)  I would think a orifice change (if it's
removable) and maybe a gas valve (if it has one).   Anybody see how this can
blow up in my face ???

I'm open to all conversations... I'm not the best gas guru, but I can make a
leak free joint !

thanks
John


What every man worth his salt should know how to do.....

Sweep a woman off her feet, ...motivate a peer
Make a wish come true - for someone else,
keep a promise... change a tire... calm a fear
make a child giggle...tell a ghost story
write a love letter, ask for directions
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com

From trmarty at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 18 07:16:03 2012
From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:16:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet
Message-ID: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>

I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the
house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master bath
started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace
the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse???  As the float
is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering
takes place.  Any ideas?

Marty

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Dec 18 07:32:50 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:32:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <OFC0F1DD38.13007A82-ON85257AD8.004FF576-85257AD8.00510BFD@mail.megageek.com>

Marty, 

Is there an "expansion tank" in your house?  If so, drain the water from 
it (it should have an easy drain valve.)

The expansion tank should be a small 10 gal or so tank (like one on a 
portable compressor) that has one water line run it.)
Note, I'm not an expert, but this works for me.

Enjoy!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




marty sukey <trmarty at hotmail.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/18/2012 09:04 AM

To
shop-talk list <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] Loud Toilet






I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the
house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master 
bath
started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I 
replace
the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse???  As the 
float
is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering
takes place.  Any ideas?

Marty
______________

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Dec 18 07:46:53 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:46:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <008a01cddd2e$85e03570$91a0a050$@ameritech.net>

Sounds like classic water hammer.  As the tank float drops, the fill valve
opens and water flow begins.  Might be that the new fill is just a little
more crisp in opening, giving a quicker start to the water flow, and more
hammer than with the old valve.

There should be a hammer trap in the water feed line near the valve on the
wall.  It's supposed to be full of air to absorb fast changes in water
pressure, which is what causes water hammer.  Over time, the air becomes
entrained in the water, and the hammer trap fills with water.  Eventually
there's just not enough air cushion left and hammer begins.  The trap is
just a vertical length of pipe teed into the line with a cap on top.  It
will be sealed in the wall, so you can't directly drain it or refill it with
air.  That means thoroughly draining that run of pipe.  It's often not much
harder to drain everything in the house at the same time and avoid the same
thing happening somewhere else soon.

In a long ranch house that's a little more difficult, but what you need to
do is get a drain opening in the water supply line as close to the shutoff
valve as possible.  Shut off the supply valve, open something as close to
the supply as possible and arrange a way for a few gallons of water to drain
without destroying your house, and then, starting at the furthest fixture,
open all faucets and flush all toilets to get all the water out of the
system.  Hammer traps may take a while to drain down, but they should all do
so eventually.  You may have to  remove the supply line to toilets to make
them drain properly, but usually just flushing the toilet will do the trick.

You want to start at the far end so you have maximum siphon effect and don't
leave a pocket of water somewhere, which can take longer of be really
difficult to drain.

Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: marty sukey
Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet
I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the
house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master
bath started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I
replace the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse???  As
the float is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the
shuttering/hammering takes place.  Any ideas?
Marty

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Tue Dec 18 08:14:03 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:14:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <50D0883B.2080301@comcast.net>

On 12/18/2012 9:16 AM, marty sukey wrote:
> I have a 12 year old house. Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the
> house from the water feed line. A few months ago the toilet in the master bath
> started hammering when flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace
> the fill valve in the tank over the weekend, and it got worse???  As the float
> is dropping to start filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering
> takes place.  Any ideas?

I have a well and so have an expansion buffer in the form of a well 
tank.  I have had this hammering affect because of the value 
oscillating.  The valve opens and because of vibrations it briefly 
closes and reopens.  More vibration.  An air buffer may help but not 
always.  I've found simply partially closing down the shutoff valve 
cures the problem.  Toilet fills a little slower.


>
> Marty
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 18 08:56:26 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:56:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU168-W82E070B3835E616D9EBD07BA310@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1355846186.54999.YahooMailNeo@web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Try reducing the water pressure. Either at the valve under the tank or at
the main shutoff.
You should be able to reduce it without having a noticeable
effect on the other outlets.
The only thing to be aware of is the valve under
the toilet might leak of you touch it. 

B
>________________________________
> From: marty sukey <trmarty at hotmail.com>
>To: shop-talk list <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
>Sent: Tuesday, December 18,
2012 9:16 AM
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Loud Toilet
> 
>I have a 12 year old house.
Master bathroom is at the opposite end of the
>house from the water feed line.
A few months ago the toilet in the master bath
>started hammering when
flushed. Like a water hammer shutter noise. I replace
>the fill valve in the
tank over the weekend, and it got worse???  As the float
>is dropping to start
filling the tank is when all the shuttering/hammering
>takes place.  Any
ideas?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Dec 18 21:44:37 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:44:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oscilloscope on my car's ignition
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9VuPUxMD63E0z-HTiJegf0cN1+BW5tqa7p-FSOG4OFESg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I had borrowed an oscilloscope from a friend, so it occurred to me to hook
it up to the primary ignition circuit of my '31 Ford. I never realized that
so much information could be gotten from the waveform!

Here is a video of what I saw: http://youtu.be/Tj4ixoUG87Y

Has anybody else ever scoped an antique car ignition? The waveform doesn't
look like the sample waveforms I have found on the web. The main difference
is the fast ringing during the burn time. The intensity of the ringing
randomly switches between two levels, as the engine misfires. Has anybody
ever seen that?

I thought that maybe that ringing comes from the car's non-resistor plugs.
But after this I hooked it up to my '72 Spitfire, which of course has
resistor plugs and wires.
That high-frequency ringing during the burn time was present on that car,
too.  Any idea where it comes from?

Thanks,
Doug

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Tue Dec 18 23:01:18 2012
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:01:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heater conversion: propane to NG.
Message-ID: <0C13CE3207A04624979A34CADB103E61@SusieandMarkPC>

<<<
I have a Comfort Glow 26k btu wall mount radiant heater ( that has legs and
is now free standing)  that I use at Christmas to warm my deck during
gatherings.
The deck is screened and wrapped in poly and with the heater it will stay
around 65-70 inside at 35-40 outside... good enough for the smokers and the
folks that are tired of the crowd.

Every year I drag it to the deck with a couple tanks of propane  and every
year I drag it back in storage... 40 bucks lighter for the propane.  As I
set up this year I finally realized that I had an unlimited supply of nat
gas 10 feet away at the gas grill...  I'm about to become a convert !

Checking with the mfg, they say NO CONVERSION  on this heater.  Not one to
be dissuaded by technical knowledge, common sense and other hokum, I'm on a
quest to convert...

Anyone got any ideas ???  I haven't taken it apart yet... it has five blocks
that are lit as the control knob is turned up (low, med, high... 1 block,3
block, 5 block respectively)  I would think a orifice change (if it's
removable) and maybe a gas valve (if it has one).   Anybody see how this can
blow up in my face ???

I'm open to all conversations... I'm not the best gas guru, but I can make a
leak free joint !

>>>

I've gone the other way - converted my NG dryer to propane when I moved into
the boonies - but it is the same fix: take out the orifice and replace it
with another.  In my case: larger to smaller, in your case smaller to
larger.  I would not recommend screwing around with sizing it yourself but
finding orifices sized for what you want.  Look online: you should be able
to find a parts list for the heater that has two different orifices listed:
one each for NG and propane use. 

BTW: does the heater vent safely now that it is freestanding?  If you have
enclosed the deck with plastic wrap you want to make sure there is enough
airflow for exhaust to exhaust and for makeup air to come in for the burner.
Just sayin'.

Mark Miller

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Dec 20 14:43:42 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:43:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oscilloscope on my car's ignition
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9VuPUxMD63E0z-HTiJegf0cN1+BW5tqa7p-FSOG4OFESg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOtbU9VuPUxMD63E0z-HTiJegf0cN1+BW5tqa7p-FSOG4OFESg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50D3868E.4010700@hornesystemstx.com>

Doug,

There are three main differences between a normal electronics 
oscilloscope and an engine scope.

The oscilloscope has a fixed time base (horizontal scan) while the 
engine scope scan is based on the speed of the engine. When you speed up 
an engine you see the pulses get closer together, then the scan widens 
out to where the pulses were before.

The vertical scan of an oscilloscope is linear, while the engine scope 
is something like a log scale so you can see the small voltage changes 
near zero and the top of the peaks at several KV at the same time.

The oscilloscope normally has a fixed brightness to the trace (some 
intensify the faster beam movement) while the engine scope will always 
intensify the higher speed trace movement so yo can see everything clearly.

Having said that, I have used an oscilloscope for ignition work for 
years. You just can't do everything as easily as you can with a 
dedicated engine scope.

The ringing you see starts right after the points open and the plug 
fires. This ringing is caused by the collapse of the magnetic field in 
the coil, coupled with the condenser across the points, which are now 
open. This is normal and will be on all ignition systems with points, 
and probably early (non-CDI) ignition systems. The current flow through 
the spark will also affect the waveform. Try pulling a plug wire and 
both ground it and leave it open and see the difference in waveform. 
Experimentation is the best method of learning! You should be able to 
wrap a wire around the plug wire you are messing with and connect it to 
the sync input of the scope. Go to external sync and then the trace will 
start with that particular plug so you can see the results easier.

I'm not sure what you mean by the ringing switching between two levels, 
but suggest that you verify that your points are in good shape, gapped 
correctly and are properly grounded. Most distributors have a ground 
wire from the contact plate to the distributor housing that can break 
from the continual rotating of the contact plate due to vacuum advance. 
Likewise there is a wire from the points to the coil connection on the 
outside of the distributor that can also break. Finally, make sure the 
condenser on the distributor is grounded solidly and connected to the 
points wire.

If you have other questions, please feel free to contact me.

Peace,
Pat

  Thusly spake Doug Braun

> Hello,
>
> I had borrowed an oscilloscope from a friend, so it occurred to me to hook
> it up to the primary ignition circuit of my '31 Ford. I never realized that
> so much information could be gotten from the waveform!
>
> Here is a video of what I saw: http://youtu.be/Tj4ixoUG87Y
>
> Has anybody else ever scoped an antique car ignition? The waveform doesn't
> look like the sample waveforms I have found on the web. The main difference
> is the fast ringing during the burn time. The intensity of the ringing
> randomly switches between two levels, as the engine misfires. Has anybody
> ever seen that?
>
> I thought that maybe that ringing comes from the car's non-resistor plugs.
> But after this I hooked it up to my '72 Spitfire, which of course has
> resistor plugs and wires.
> That high-frequency ringing during the burn time was present on that car,
> too.  Any idea where it comes from?
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice & Text	5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Dec 20 19:17:50 2012
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:17:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling?
Message-ID: <30FD5895-9B5B-4ED2-91C1-7EF995EBF6D6@groupwbench.org>

My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating like
popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse grit sand
on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match when you
patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying drywall over
it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm looking
into covering it.

Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but I also
thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster adhere
to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or should
I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't take
forever, but I only want to do it once.

thanks,

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Dec 21 07:35:29 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:35:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling?
Message-ID: <7b4dc27c.1539b6.13bbde3ebb3.Webtop.48@charter.net>

I have basically the same situation here on all the walls and ceilings.
In one room I had to remove a bunch of B=b
x 6b
 tongue and groove (cabin
type) pine boards that were on two walls in one room. I used dry wall
mud to cover all the walls (and the holes that were caused when pulling
out the dozens and dozens of 4" finishing nails used to hold these
boards.)

Long story short, the dry wall mud worked but was very time consuming, I
did four walls approx. 18-20b long and it took probably half a five
gallon bucket. Then there is sanding and painting.

All other replies to the list please folks. Thanks! tim


On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:

> My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating
> like
> popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse
> grit sand
> on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match
> when you
> patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying
> drywall over
> it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm
> looking
> into covering it.
>
> Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but
> I also
> thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster
> adhere
> to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or
> should
> I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't
> take
> forever, but I only want to do it once.
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Dec 21 09:11:40 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:11:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling?
In-Reply-To: <7b4dc27c.1539b6.13bbde3ebb3.Webtop.48@charter.net>
References: <7b4dc27c.1539b6.13bbde3ebb3.Webtop.48@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50D48A3C.9000907@xxiii.com>

I grew up in a 1917 vintage house with plaster over wood lath. Have lots 
of experience patching plaster cracks, and I've spread a little drywall 
mud over the years. It's been years ago (1980s) but I think it's still 
relevant to current materials: plaster cures (crystallizes) and expands, 
like cement; mud dries and shrinks. Mud is NOT good in large layers or 
cracks.

We had a kitchen ceiling cave in from a water leak above. Dad's initial 
thought was rip it all out and drywall the ceiling. But we were still 
able to find a guy that was an expert plasterer. He laid a couple coats 
on it, didn't have to do much if any sanding, and it was ready to prime 
& paint. I don't remember exact details (been 25 or so years ago) buy I 
think he used something like tile backer-board or metal lath to replace 
the water damaged stuff, and laid a skim coat over the whole thing.

If you can still find a plasterer, I'd try them. Heard there's been some 
resurgence in the trade. Some high end houses go for a full skim coat of 
plaster over drywall, instead of just mud joints that dang near always show.

-w

On 12/21/2012 9:35 AM, Tim wrote:
>> My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating
>> like
>> popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse
>> grit sand
>> on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match
>> when you
>> patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying
>> drywall over
>> it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm
>> looking
>> into covering it.
>>
>> Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but
>> I also
>> thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster
>> adhere
>> to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or
>> should
>> I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't
>> take
>> forever, but I only want to do it once.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 11:43:04 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:43:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Covering sand textured ceiling?
In-Reply-To: <50D48A3C.9000907@xxiii.com>
References: <7b4dc27c.1539b6.13bbde3ebb3.Webtop.48@charter.net>
	<50D48A3C.9000907@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supY=C77-UPttEX4oZXM04cKjuD8DZp3z1zD5-mityv2cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> I grew up in a 1917 vintage house with plaster over wood lath. Have lots of
> experience patching plaster cracks, and I've spread a little drywall mud
> over the years. It's been years ago (1980s) but I think it's still relevant
> to current materials: plaster cures (crystallizes) and expands, like cement;
> mud dries and shrinks. Mud is NOT good in large layers or cracks.
>
> We had a kitchen ceiling cave in from a water leak above. Dad's initial
> thought was rip it all out and drywall the ceiling. But we were still able
> to find a guy that was an expert plasterer. He laid a couple coats on it,
> didn't have to do much if any sanding, and it was ready to prime & paint. I
> don't remember exact details (been 25 or so years ago) buy I think he used
> something like tile backer-board or metal lath to replace the water damaged
> stuff, and laid a skim coat over the whole thing.
>

There are sheet goods (like drywall, but with a different coat, and
maybe a different core) available for plastering, they're called 'blue
board' (which is no doubts someone's trademark).  They hang like
drywall, and then get a skim goat of plaster.  Metal lath still gets
used, but I think just for repair work, anyone doing a big area uses
the board stuff.


> If you can still find a plasterer, I'd try them. Heard there's been some
> resurgence in the trade. Some high end houses go for a full skim coat of
> plaster over drywall, instead of just mud joints that dang near always show.
>
> -w
>
>
> On 12/21/2012 9:35 AM, Tim wrote:
>>>
>>> My whole house has a sand texture ceiling- not a sprayed on coating
>>> like
>>> popcorn, but 1/4" - 3/8" thick plaster type stuff with very coarse
>>> grit sand
>>> on the surface. Impossible to scrape off. Also impossible to match
>>> when you
>>> patch a hole of which I have many. So i need to cover it. Laying
>>> drywall over
>>> it is easiest but I'd need to do a lot, plus the light holes. So I'm
>>> looking
>>> into covering it.
>>>
>>> Tried tonight with watered down mud and it should go in 2-3 coats. but
>>> I also
>>> thought using actual plaster might work, and in one coat. Will plaster
>>> adhere
>>> to this stuff? Doesn't seem to be painted and I only need 1/4" max. Or
>>> should
>>> I just use more drywall mud? I'm decent with the technique so it won't
>>> take
>>> forever, but I only want to do it once.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Dec 25 09:18:21 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:18:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system
Message-ID: <OF043271E0.98E93B8A-ON85257ADF.00593318-85257ADF.005AE994@mail.megageek.com>

Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list.

A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to 
share with you guys.  I wrote it up as an Instructable. 

I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote 
for me!  Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades!

Here is the link...

>http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING-SYSTEM/<

Here is a tinyurl link to it... 

http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h 

Enjoy!


Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From mbarre at juno.com  Tue Dec 25 09:42:42 2012
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:42:42 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system
Message-ID: <20121225.114242.26741.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>

Looks great Inch!  Merry Christmas.Did you ever come up with something for
your firewood vending need? MB

---------- Original Message ----------
From: eric at megageek.com
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:18:21 -0500

Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list.

A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to
share with you guys.  I wrote it up as an Instructable.

I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote
for me!  Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades!

Here is the link...

>http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING-
SYSTEM/<

Here is a tinyurl link to it...

http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h

Enjoy!


Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
Waldo Emerson
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Dec 25 10:00:04 2012
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 12:00:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system
In-Reply-To: <OF043271E0.98E93B8A-ON85257ADF.00593318-85257ADF.005AE994@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF043271E0.98E93B8A-ON85257ADF.00593318-85257ADF.005AE994@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAOEriim=bc+xdqniRaSAor+xOG81jACNDHHLVs4Opx7uRpzYDA@mail.gmail.com>

Very nice.

My father in law used to sell a lot of firewood and we built racks out of
recycled hardwood packing material that the construction company would get
with steel deliveries.  We made them hold a half cord and would put roofs
on them to protect the wood from the elements a bit.  At first, we used
some canvas that we were repurposing, but that didn't hold up for more than
a couple of seasons so we switched to corrugated steel roofing (also
reclaimed).  At the height of things he probably had 30-40 half-cord racks.


You're right, it makes handling wood much easier.  We'd put an empty rack
at the out-feed of the splitter, fill it up and use the uniloader or
tractor to move it to a clearing out in the woods.  When the wood was
seasoned, we could move it into isles in a clearing at the front of the
property so that customers could drive their truck down the isle, pick a
rack and load up.

He doesn't sell much wood at all anymore and now he just cuts/splits six or
eight cord a season to keep up with heating the house, shop and his
daughter's house on the property.  We still split right onto the racks, and
when he's ready to use it he can move it right to the Woodmaster.  I can't
imagine just stacking split firewood out in the woods somewhere and having
to haul it in to use it a little at a time.

-Paul

On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 11:18 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list.
>
> A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to
> share with you guys.  I wrote it up as an Instructable.
>
> I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote
> for me!  Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades!
>
> Here is the link...
>
> >
> http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING-SYSTEM/
> <
>
> Here is a tinyurl link to it...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Dec 25 11:27:30 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 13:27:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system
In-Reply-To: <20121225.114242.26741.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <OFFDE430D5.8B2A6A54-ON85257ADF.00654665-85257ADF.0066BCD7@mail.megageek.com>

Thanks. 

I haven't come up with the system yet, but I'm still working on it!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




"Matt" <mbarre at juno.com> 
12/25/2012 11:33

To
eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system






Looks great Inch!  Merry Christmas.
Did you ever come up with something for your firewood vending need?
 
MB


---------- Original Message ----------
From: eric at megageek.com
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:18:21 -0500

Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list.

A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to 
share with you guys.  I wrote it up as an Instructable. 

I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote 
for me!  Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades!

Here is the link...

>http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HANDLING-SYSTEM/<

Here is a tinyurl link to it... 

http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h 

Enjoy!

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Tue Dec 25 13:21:10 2012
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 12:21:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Redneck wood rack
Message-ID: <CE73639313F94B5BBC49548485C3A351@SusieandMarkPC>

I think if you want to guarantee a win you should post a picture of you
driving the tractor with the pallet of wood into the living room through the
full sized garage door.  

<<<
-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Merry Christmas to all my friends here on this list.

A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to
share with you guys.  I wrote it up as an Instructable. 

I just entered it into a Redneck contest, so be sure to log in and vote for
me!  Also, I'd love to hear your comments or upgrades!

Here is the link...

>http://www.instructables.com/id/The-ULTIMATE-REDNECK-FIREWOOD-EASY-HAND
>LING-SYSTEM/<

Here is a tinyurl link to it... 

http://tinyurl.com/bqdl47h 

Enjoy!

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Tue Dec 25 15:30:51 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 14:30:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Firewood handling system
In-Reply-To: <OF043271E0.98E93B8A-ON85257ADF.00593318-85257ADF.005AE994@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF043271E0.98E93B8A-ON85257ADF.00593318-85257ADF.005AE994@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <50DA291B.9000602@frontier.com>

That's a great idea, but if I had access to that many pallets, I would 
probably burn them.

I just use the tractor bucket.


On 12/25/2012 8:18 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> A while ago I came up with an idea for handling firewood that I wanted to
> share with you guys.  I wrote it up as an Instructable.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Fri Dec 28 19:05:09 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (scott.hall.personal at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 02:05:09 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?This_is_why_I_don=27t_work_in_IT=2C_update?=
Message-ID: <50de4fd8.89aeec0a.6aab.ffffd501@mx.google.com>

After all that angst, I thought I should post an update.

 

Peter (thanks Peter) sent me a Vista ISO file. I burned it to a DVD and tried to install.

 

it wonbt install. Says therebs a network problem. I thought it might be Wi-Fi related, so I plugged it directly into the router. No connection.

 

I plugged the other laptop into the router, it connected fine (via cable).

 

I took the HD out of that laptop (an HP, FWIW), and put in my my SSD. Installed Vista from the ISO on that drive just fine.

 

So the Dell has an issue with its Ethernet connection. I seem to remember that from a while ago. I never use the Ethernet connection on the Dell, so I never pursued it.

 

So...the Dell either has a hardware problem with the Ethernet port, or a driver problem.

 

It seems to have video driver problems, so I go to the Dell site to download all the necessary drivers for Win8. There are no Win8 drivers listed for this Dell.

 

Okay...so Ibll download all the new drivers available and see if some of them fix my issues.

 

It insists it has to recognize my existing configuration before it can do that, and it canbt do that, since it has Win8 on it and Win8 is not supported for the E6400. It would appear Ibm not getting any Dell drivers until I go back to Vista which I canbt do until I have working Ethernet, which I canbt do until I get the drivers (or fix the hardware issue if itbs that).

 

So...Ibm going to put this down for a day or two and go skiing.

 

When I get back Ibll either bash it to pieces with a hammer or try again. I have no idea how to tell if the Ethernet issue is hardware or software related, but at least I know the ISO disc works and could install Vista on the new disc. I canbt install Vista on the SSD in the other laptop, then remove the SSD and put it in the Dell for some reason, so Ibm at an impasse.

 

So Ibm stuck back hating Dell, but perhaps that will change if I ever get this thing working. Lenovo forever!!!

From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Dec 28 19:56:54 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:56:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] This is why I don't work in IT, update
In-Reply-To: <50de4fd8.89aeec0a.6aab.ffffd501@mx.google.com>
References: <50de4fd8.89aeec0a.6aab.ffffd501@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMjtZjQvxhRUtGE4oj6J6avDfhE5mFuspiYEwpTN7M0MQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:05 PM,  <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no idea how to tell if the Ethernet issue is hardware or software related

Try an Ubuntu Live disc...

http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop

http://www.ubuntu.com/download/help/try-ubuntu-before-you-install

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Dec 30 16:56:51 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:56:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
Message-ID: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>

As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and 
TV when watching a football game.

Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event?

Thanks
tim

From mark at bradakis.com  Sun Dec 30 17:23:07 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:23:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
In-Reply-To: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50E0DAEB.8050306@bradakis.com>

Tim wrote:
> As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and
> TV when watching a football game.
>
> Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event?
>
>

Probably not easy.  One could pipe the audio from the radio into a computer
that was running a X second delay program if such exists.

I remember years ago when the Utah Jazz were playing in the NBA finals 
against
the Bulls.  It was funny to have the radio I was listening to being 
about a second
ahead of what was on the screen.  You'd know if the basket was made 
before the
guy took the shot!

mjb.

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Dec 30 17:14:15 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:14:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
In-Reply-To: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <OF924D1F0B.578D413A-ON85257AE5.00010E98-85257AE5.0002A88F@mail.megageek.com>

Not to be a wise guy, but can't you TIVO the game and just pause it for 
the delayed time?

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Tim <tputland at charter.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/30/2012 18:45

To
Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?






As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and 
TV when watching a football game.

Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event?

Thanks
tim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec 30 17:31:18 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:31:18 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
In-Reply-To: <OF924D1F0B.578D413A-ON85257AE5.00010E98-85257AE5.0002A88F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF924D1F0B.578D413A-ON85257AE5.00010E98-85257AE5.0002A88F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <337DFF18-AA71-4D19-9862-BFFA4C289228@gmail.com>

On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:14 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

> Not to be a wise guy, but can't you TIVO the game and just pause it for
> the delayed time?


That's probably easiest.  You want get it exactly right but you can get close
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
>
> Tim <tputland at charter.net>
> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 12/30/2012 18:45
>
> To
> Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> cc
>
> Subject
> [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and
> TV when watching a football game.
>
> Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event?
>
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mjw at littlegrassy.com  Sun Dec 30 21:47:25 2012
From: mjw at littlegrassy.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:47:25 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
In-Reply-To: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50E118DD.40404@littlegrassy.com>

Ok a quick search turned this up-
    http://www.fountainware.com/Products/AudioDelay/index.htm
or
    http://www.daansystems.com/radiodelay/
No Idea if they work.

-----------------------

When I worked with MLB.com this was a real problem.
Sometimes we would get audio not in sync from the broadcast truck.
There solutions ranged from ten's of thousands of dollars (could only 
delay audio, not video) to a custom million + dollar A/V router system 
that had audio/video delays built in for just this problem (and many others)

You basically need a program/hardware that will delay the audio 
(normally ahead of video) or delay the video (not often the issue) and 
then manually sync them up and hope the delay doesn't change for the 
duration of the event.

Heck just try having 2 TV's on cable, one HD one SD, there is normally a 
significant delay between the 2 boxes on the order of a second or more 
on the local cable system.
Makes it funny listening to the neighbors scream for a play a second or 
more apart.
Even worse if the 2 TV's are in the same room/house.

Useless knowledge Alert-
In the old analog video days it was standard practice to use long runs 
of cable (100's of feet) to time the delay of video signals through 
different pieces of equipment.
Also had to be sure to keep the RGB signal cables the same length or you 
ran into color shifts.


Sorry I can't be of more help.



On 12/30/2012 5:56 PM, Tim wrote:
> As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and
> TV when watching a football game.
>
> Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event?
>
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mjw at littlegrassy.com
>
>


-- 
Matt Wehland
(815) 549-1502
mjw at littlegrassy.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec 30 23:07:50 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 00:07:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
In-Reply-To: <50E118DD.40404@littlegrassy.com>
References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
	<50E118DD.40404@littlegrassy.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supwMpHyxpkYmq3G7oNsQaeHfVnY6xNuMpY--8geAPfHrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Matt Wehland <mjw at littlegrassy.com> wrote:
> Ok a quick search turned this up-
>    http://www.fountainware.com/Products/AudioDelay/index.htm
> or
>    http://www.daansystems.com/radiodelay/
> No Idea if they work.
>
> -----------------------
>
> When I worked with MLB.com this was a real problem.
> Sometimes we would get audio not in sync from the broadcast truck.
> There solutions ranged from ten's of thousands of dollars (could only delay
> audio, not video) to a custom million + dollar A/V router system that had
> audio/video delays built in for just this problem (and many others)
>
> You basically need a program/hardware that will delay the audio (normally
> ahead of video) or delay the video (not often the issue) and then manually
> sync them up and hope the delay doesn't change for the duration of the
> event.
>
> Heck just try having 2 TV's on cable, one HD one SD, there is normally a
> significant delay between the 2 boxes on the order of a second or more on
> the local cable system.

When I lived in northern Indiana, most of the sports bars had both
cable and satellite service, because one considered Chicago the local
market, the other detroit, which changed which games were available.
So it was not unusual when they were showing the same thing on all of
them to have half tuned to one source, the other half to the other
source.  One would be two to five seconds ahead of the other.  You
could tell when important plays were made, just by watching the heads
move to the delayed screens.  Somewhat surprisingly, the delays
weren't constant, they'd change over the course of a football game.


 A lot of the delay is inherent in digital television.  Not only are
there encoding and delays (which make it lag behind the non digital
version, were the non-digital version actually broadcast.  it's not,
so it's really the digital signal, decoded, converted, and
retransmitted, so it's often behind on cable), there's an error
recovery buffer (two sorts, one built into the format, the other into
the hardware.) and the speed of the hardware.  There's also often a
satellite hop (or two, rarely three), good for a third of a second or
more each.   Radio is just audio, even if it gets turned into digital
signals, the conversion overhead is a lot lower.  (I know at least
some of the network feeds are now over the internet, essentially
guaranteeing they're not over a satellite link, too.)


> Makes it funny listening to the neighbors scream for a play a second or more
> apart.
> Even worse if the 2 TV's are in the same room/house.
>
> Useless knowledge Alert-
> In the old analog video days it was standard practice to use long runs of
> cable (100's of feet) to time the delay of video signals through different
> pieces of equipment.

Some of the first computer memory used audio pulses sent through
mercury tubes.  you knew how long it took for sound to travel the
tube, so you knew when you'd have to listen for it.  Required constant
refreshing, and wasn't random access, but it worked, and the
technology already existed.  It's a variation of the technique to
remove the signals from fixed objects from early radar screens.
Compare two successive scans,  anthing with the same delay isn't
moving, and can be ignored.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Dec 30 23:30:07 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:30:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
In-Reply-To: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
References: <499fe31e.2c541f.13bee3f1b45.Webtop.47@charter.net>
Message-ID: <F70FED9AD275487BB5DA55245AE14695@EntCentPC>

Just watch the video and listen to the non-video presentations.  It's a lot
more exciting that way.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tim
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 3:57 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?

As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and 
TV when watching a football game.

Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting event?

Thanks
tim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Dec 31 08:18:31 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:18:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
Message-ID: <2a8ddfeb.2da8ff.13bf18aed03.Webtop.44@charter.net>

I had thought about this method with my dvr but the radio is always 
ahead of the tv so pausing the tv part with only make the delay longer.


On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:14 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

> Not to be a wise guy, but can't you TIVO the game and just pause it 
> for the delayed time?
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a 
> rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your 
> territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
> Tim <tputland at charter.net> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 12/30/2012 18:45
>
> To
> Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> cc
>
> Subject
> [Shop-talk] radio/tv sync?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As you all know, there is a pretty significant delay between radio and 
> TV when watching a football game.
>
> Is there a way to sync the radio and TV broadcasts of a sporting 
> event?
>
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com