From eric at megageek.com  Wed Aug  1 03:51:51 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 05:51:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <50189DA1.10509@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF6A0FCEEB.4A7DA444-ON85257A4D.00352BDB-85257A4D.0036E433@mail.megageek.com>

Scott writes...

>I think if I had concerns, I'd find a telephone pole and sink it maybe 
>six feet deep. It's real easy to identify a hoodlum as the ambulance is 
>carrying them off and you can take their i.d. from their wallet after 
>their pants are cut off them.

That's what I did.  I got the official .PDF from the post office about 
mailbox placement (Email me if you want a copy) and I made my mailbox post 
to fit the regs (or at least my best interpretation as the document 
contracts itself in a few places.)

What I ended up with was 2 X 2.5" rebar posts that go about 4' deep into 
the ground and 5" steel C beam to tie them together.  Check out the 
photo...
http://www.megageek.com/photoalbums/NavigationalBuoys/navigationalbuoysinstalled.html 


Of course I used 'approved' mailboxes (these are the cheapest I could 
find).  One other thing I did was to set my mailboxes about 5' back from 
the road, then I paved the gap.
You can see it in this photo...
http://www.megageek.com/photoalbums/NavigationalBuoys/navigationalbuoysinstalled6.html 


This way I can sit in front of my mailbox with my truck and not be in the 
road.  The mailman is happier and the kids can't turn into it at any 
speed.  The real reason I did it was the snow plows around here are 
operated by NASCAR so I would often have to fix my mailbox because the 
snow that was plowed into them.  Problem solved.

PS, yes, those are real navigational buoys in front of my place.  I got 
tired of people going to the wrong driveway.  8>)

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Wed Aug  1 05:03:38 2012
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 07:03:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
References: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <001801cd6fd5$4f46a740$edd3f5c0$@cablespeed.com>

Any kid who will beat on your mailbox with a ball bat will attack your
motion-sensor camera with equal vigor....

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Aug  1 05:39:54 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 07:39:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other Haynes Manuals
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9UeWPjenK7n0iin0rEAR04JSzk64UQzLu-VgDPwguch=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Everybody is certainly familiar with the Haynes manuals for cars, but I
found they have manuals for other things, done
in the characteristic Haynes style:

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=44863&langId=-1

Doug

From dreinsch at swbell.net  Wed Aug  1 06:34:08 2012
From: dreinsch at swbell.net (Dwade Reinsch)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 05:34:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] concrete mixer issue
In-Reply-To: <5018A5A3.1090400@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <1343824448.10195.YahooMailClassic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Growing up on the farm, we had problems like this with rusty plows until they
would "scour" (polish up and start rolling the dirt over.)  Maybe don't start
with water and concrete mix but just dry mix, let it run until the stone and
grit has cleaned up the left over-stuck on bits of concrete from the last job
and then add water.
 
YMMV.
 
Cotton farmer Dwade

--- On Tue, 7/31/12, Dave C <cavanadd at frontier.com> wrote:


From: Dave C <cavanadd at frontier.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] concrete mixer issue
To: "Mike Rambour" <lists at dinospider.com>
Cc: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 10:42 PM


I have a Harbor Freight mixer, probably the same as yours or similar.  Mine
does the same thing sometimes.  I was mixing up 60 pound bags last week to set
some posts for a lumber rack and after the first batch (2 60# bags) I noticed
it sticking to the bottom.  I just stopped it, dug it off the bottom with a
shovel, rotated it 180* and dug the rest off, and turned it back on.  I was
only mixing six bags so it wasn't a huge deal but it is kind of a PITA.   Next
time I'll probably use my sharpshooter shovel.

I think if I dumped all the concrete mix (dry) into one wheelbarrow and then
shoveled it into the mixer while it was running, shoveling a little and then
adding a little water, it would probably work better, but that's just as much
trouble.

Sorry, no pizza oven comments.


On 7/31/2012 10:57 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:
> 2 years ago I bought a concrete mixer from Home Depot and I used it quite a
bit for a month or so, no issues then it sat for 2 years. Last week I used it
again, no issues.  This Saturday and again last night I used it again and it
was a pain to use.  The concrete was sticking/drying to the bottom of the drum
like crazy and I kept having to turn it off and using a garden trowel, scrape
the bottom of the drum.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Aug  1 09:26:06 2012
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 11:26:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other Haynes Manuals
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9UeWPjenK7n0iin0rEAR04JSzk64UQzLu-VgDPwguch=Q@mail.g
	mail.com>
References: <CAOtbU9UeWPjenK7n0iin0rEAR04JSzk64UQzLu-VgDPwguch=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0M8300BYO1OKD1E0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

If anyone is looking for these in the US, I believe they are 
available at Little British Car Co.  Go to www.lbcarco.com and go to 
the "special offers and great gift ideas" section.  Scroll down to 
"Practical step-by-step manuals for Mens health, Womens health (for 
men), baby care, Teenagers and sex."  They are $35 each.  From what I 
understand, they are not just jokes.  They are intended to actually 
convey useful information.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 07:39 AM 8/1/2012, Doug Braun wrote:
>Everybody is certainly familiar with the Haynes manuals for cars, but I
>found they have manuals for other things, done
>in the characteristic Haynes style:
>
>http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=44863&langId=-1

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug  1 13:15:18 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:15:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other Haynes Manuals
In-Reply-To: <0M8300BYO1OKD1E0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <CAOtbU9UeWPjenK7n0iin0rEAR04JSzk64UQzLu-VgDPwguch=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<0M8300BYO1OKD1E0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <000d01cd7019$fdcb8800$f9629800$@rr.com>

> From what I
> understand, they are not just jokes.  They are intended to actually
> convey useful information.

I bought the "sex" one strictly for joke value.  The book is serious, but
don't expect to learn anything from it.  

I still think it's funny, but my friends don't see the humor.
 
-- Randall 

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Aug  1 14:11:09 2012
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:11:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other Haynes Manuals
In-Reply-To: <000d01cd7019$fdcb8800$f9629800$@rr.com>
References: <CAOtbU9UeWPjenK7n0iin0rEAR04JSzk64UQzLu-VgDPwguch=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<0M8300BYO1OKD1E0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<000d01cd7019$fdcb8800$f9629800$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <0M8300MU7ETLHJE0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I guess it depends on how much you know to start with.


At 03:15 PM 8/1/2012, Randall wrote:
>I bought the "sex" one strictly for joke value.  The book is serious, but
>don't expect to learn anything from it.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 14:18:26 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:18:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other Haynes Manuals
In-Reply-To: <000d01cd7019$fdcb8800$f9629800$@rr.com>
References: <CAOtbU9UeWPjenK7n0iin0rEAR04JSzk64UQzLu-VgDPwguch=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<0M8300BYO1OKD1E0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<000d01cd7019$fdcb8800$f9629800$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <50198F12.3090103@gmail.com>

My ex didn't see the humor in our sex life either. Maybe the book would 
have told me not to laugh.

Hey-yo! (Rimshot).

On 8/1/2012 3:15 PM, Randall wrote:
> I still think it's funny, but my friends don't see the humor.

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Wed Aug  1 14:19:28 2012
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:19:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other Haynes Manuals
In-Reply-To: <000d01cd7019$fdcb8800$f9629800$@rr.com>
References: <CAOtbU9UeWPjenK7n0iin0rEAR04JSzk64UQzLu-VgDPwguch=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<0M8300BYO1OKD1E0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<000d01cd7019$fdcb8800$f9629800$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20120801161849.037b80e8@pop.nycap.rr.com>

Installation is the reverse of removal.........

At 03:15 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
> > From what I
> > understand, they are not just jokes.  They are intended to actually
> > convey useful information.
>
>I bought the "sex" one strictly for joke value.  The book is serious, but
>don't expect to learn anything from it.
>
>I still think it's funny, but my friends don't see the humor.
>
>-- Randall
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
http://www.volvoskip.com/

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  1 16:31:12 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
References: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <1343860272.67950.YahooMailNeo@web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The lower end Foscam IP cameras have been getting good reviews on Amazon. I
might end up with a few by the end of the year. I did one of the q-see
surveillance systems for my aunt's business. I discovered in the process that
the consumer grade DVR's record a really small CIF format real time video.
Small enough to be relatively useless. It will do D1 format at a slower frame
rate, but I'd rather have real time video at a higher resolution. I will most
likely get another DVR system for me before I get the IP camera, but one that
does D1 format on all channels at real time. It seems the 'elite' series of
the q-see brand does this, at higher cost of course. For best resolution, the
higher end IP camera's are the way to go, but you're gonna' pay if you go that
route and it uses a LOT of hard drive space. Comparison: 500gb hard drive with
4 CIF format and 4 D1 format camera is full in 20 days.  2TB with a few higher
end 1080p cameras will probably be
 just as long before the hard drive is full. Check youtube for some
outstanding video of those cameras.  The motion sensing for me has been
relatively useless, no matter how I adjust the sensitivity.  I get lots of
flying things and moving sun shadows. You could also test the X-10 stuff to
see if it will work for you. It didn't for me and got returned, but seems to
be working for some people. 

Regards,
Brian
>________________________________
> From: Jim Franklin
<jamesf at groupwbench.org>
>To: shop-talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:36 PM
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime
surveillance cameras?
> 
>I'm interested in recording any movement such as
kids driving by my mailbox
>with a baseball bat I mean seeing what wildlife
comes through my yard at
>night. Ideally it would be motion sensor activated
but with a very short
>delay, and quick recovery from headlights. Anything you
use and like?
>(snip)

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Wed Aug  1 17:34:36 2012
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:34:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
References: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <07FF20484B974E3A8AA9E5E478B02539@stargate>

Just do what I did, place a small mailbox inside a large mailbox and fill 
the space between with concrete.  Placed on a 4" x 6"  post, sunk in 
concrete, I've had one hit in the last 25 yrs.  I heard the "Oww, sh*t" in 
the middle of the night from that one.
Nobody has bothered to even try since.

Gordie

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:36 PM
To: "shop-talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?

> I'm interested in recording any movement such as kids driving by my 
> mailbox
> with a baseball bat I mean seeing what wildlife comes through my yard at
> night. Ideally it would be motion sensor activated but with a very short
> delay, and quick recovery from headlights. Anything you use and like?
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mg_garage at comcast.net

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 18:35:20 2012
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:35:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <07FF20484B974E3A8AA9E5E478B02539@stargate>
References: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
	<07FF20484B974E3A8AA9E5E478B02539@stargate>
Message-ID: <CA+7Nz3riA_qnAF_nckbvrx=O095yYjcYwk+Q7qwyAVzcibyBHA@mail.gmail.com>

*We had a customer; fed up with having his mailbox run over by jacked up
pickup trucks, brought us a 12 foot piece of oil field drill stem to weld
 on a  mail box mount plate . . . he was gonna "wood-grain" the pipe" we
don't know the rest of the story but I have this visual image of a 4WD
Chevy impaled like a Popsicle on a stick.*
*Tony
*

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  1 19:31:39 2012
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:31:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <1343860272.67950.YahooMailNeo@web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>,
	<1343860272.67950.YahooMailNeo@web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W58D9D17CAFDA8D0A2E129B9ACB0@phx.gbl>

The Foscams on Amazon are not genuine and will not get you any warranty or
support from Foscam.  Foscam.us run deals all the time for discounts on their
cameras.  I have two of them, an outdoor and an indoor.  The outdoor one
recently stopped working after a couple years of service, I've not yet
determined what the issue is... They are cheap and pretty good for the price,
however the weather might've gotten to mine despite it being mounted under an
eave - the inside of it showed no water damage when disassembled...   The
indoor one has pan and tilt as well, and I can control it all from an app on
my Android phone.
It can be finicky to configure, but the cameras take pretty good night vision
video, you can adjust brightness and contrast to help the picture.  If you
play with lens sizes you can get a wide or narrow focused view.  No zoom on
either indoor or outdoor models.  One advantage I use on the indoor camera is
that it will detect motion and can email you pictures it takes when it detects
motion, I use it sometimes when I'm away.  Can also upload pics to an FTP
site.  With some extra software you can "DVR" the video as well though I never
tried.  same for the outdoor however expect to get alot of "false positives".
Now thinking of getting an indoor camera for the inside of my garage to really
catch anyone who manages to get in, and to keep it out of the elements.
-PJ
> The lower end Foscam IP cameras have been getting good reviews on Amazon. I
> might end up with a few by the end of the year.

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug  1 22:44:06 2012
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:44:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <CA+7Nz3riA_qnAF_nckbvrx=O095yYjcYwk+Q7qwyAVzcibyBHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
	<07FF20484B974E3A8AA9E5E478B02539@stargate>
	<CA+7Nz3riA_qnAF_nckbvrx=O095yYjcYwk+Q7qwyAVzcibyBHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1343882646.17316.YahooMailRC@web184502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I had a neighbor that was tired of people running over his mailbox.  Somewhere
he got a crankshaft from a tractor.  Seems like it was a 10- or 12-cylinder
inline.  He sunk that in concrete as the post.  One night someone tried to run
his mailbox down again. They ended up being hauled of on a towtruck and the
mailbox was still standing. 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug  2 08:38:00 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 10:38:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting spot welds
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9WpzwtdBRGPQhe4EwhhALTF5zW+kFj1ardu57hTbcRS4w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm replacing the lower rear valence panel on my Spit, because it was
bashed up
years ago, and crudely repaired with bondo.  I've been using a cheap HF
spot-weld
drill bit to separate the spot welds, and that is going faster than I
expected, especially
since the Spitfire sheet metal is so thin.

But does anybody know the best way to grind down those little discs of
metal that
the drill leaves behind?  (My drill bit is like a little hole-cutter.)  I
need to grind them flush, without
cutting too deeply into the second, remaining panel.

BTW, I'll probably spring for a HF electric spot-welder to attach the new
panel.

Thanks again,
Doug

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 08:45:56 2012
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 10:45:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting spot welds
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9WpzwtdBRGPQhe4EwhhALTF5zW+kFj1ardu57hTbcRS4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOtbU9WpzwtdBRGPQhe4EwhhALTF5zW+kFj1ardu57hTbcRS4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHq6Zxavkx1pW4pSJ9hpYhY84-zLwUJTGfD6vR0UUhCsg2uXA@mail.gmail.com>

I've used  a die grinder (slower) or a grinding disk in an angle grinder
(faster if you can position it).  Either way requires some caution to make
sure youd don't cut too deep into the "good" metal.

Ben.....

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm replacing the lower rear valence panel on my Spit, because it was
> bashed up
> years ago, and crudely repaired with bondo.  I've been using a cheap HF
> spot-weld
> drill bit to separate the spot welds, and that is going faster than I
> expected, especially
> since the Spitfire sheet metal is so thin.
>
> But does anybody know the best way to grind down those little discs of
> metal that
> the drill leaves behind?  (My drill bit is like a little hole-cutter.)  I
> need to grind them flush, without
> cutting too deeply into the second, remaining panel.
>
> BTW, I'll probably spring for a HF electric spot-welder to attach the new
> panel.
>
> Thanks again,
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Aug  2 09:00:02 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:00:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting spot welds
In-Reply-To: <CAOtbU9WpzwtdBRGPQhe4EwhhALTF5zW+kFj1ardu57hTbcRS4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOtbU9WpzwtdBRGPQhe4EwhhALTF5zW+kFj1ardu57hTbcRS4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C66F90BB5FA404490D64F5307FF5CAD@EricJRussellPC>

----- Original Message ----- 
> But does anybody know the best way to grind down those little discs of
> metal that the drill leaves behind?

I don't know if it's the best way but I use flap sanding discs. They're
available in various grits - 36 for serious material removal, 60 - 120 for
finer work. For what you're asking, I'd suggest the 60 grit.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002G9U42M/?tag=hyprod-20&hvadid=15470184459&hvpos=1o3&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18614838601995799879&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&ref=asc_df_B002G9U42M


> BTW, I'll probably spring for a HF electric spot-welder to attach the new
> panel.

I bought one a few years ago to spot weld together inner sills on my MGA.
Works OK but needs very clean/straight metal. The 'tongs' with the HF tool
are fairly short. At the time I bought a set of longer/wider reach tongs. I
don't see those available from HF currently.

For spot welds on truly structural parts I'd suggest plug welding. (drill
3/16" to 1/4" hole in one part, clamp together and fill the hole with MIG or
TIG weld) If needed, any extra height of the plug weld can be ground back
using the flap discs.

If you want to borrow my HF spot welder &/or the extended reach tongs let me
know.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug  2 09:53:06 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:53:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Spits] Cutting spot welds
In-Reply-To: <SNT002-W12841C250D929B6EFE18CBED4CB0@phx.gbl>
References: <CAOtbU9WpzwtdBRGPQhe4EwhhALTF5zW+kFj1ardu57hTbcRS4w@mail.gmail.com>
	<056c01cd70bf$925d87c0$b7189740$@comcast.net>
	<SNT002-W12841C250D929B6EFE18CBED4CB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9V3uxHM663c14YUxm3oGPff9MOAmwR9EWeUrtmXh_yUvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all the advice!

BTW, here are some reasons why electric spot welding seems worth doing for
this repair:

1: All the joints are flange-to-flange (i.e. no overlapping parts), and all
the flanges stick out, and are easily accessible.
2: I don't feel comfortable doing MIG plug welds on vertical surfaces
underneath the car.
3: Some of the joints have capping strips or trim going over them, so any
extra material has to be carefully ground off.
4: There are about 90 to 100 welds to do.
5: The spot welder is on sale :-)

Doug

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Aug  2 10:02:46 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:02:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lag screws vs. through bolting
In-Reply-To: <501832C2.6010807@DasRogges.com>
References: <501832C2.6010807@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <501AA4A6.7080804@hornesystemstx.com>

Drew,

First of all, I am anal. When I do this type of work I always use 
through bolts\, unless there is no way to do it. No matter what wood you 
use, the wood will deteriorate over time and it makes for some iffy 
holding strength. It may take only a few years for soft wood, or decades 
for more exotic wood, such as the Ipe. I'd check with your local 
building officials to see what they think.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Drew Rogge, On 7/31/2012 2:32 PM:
> I'm installing some cable railing on a new deck, unlike the wood 
> railing on my shop deck,
> and have been through bolting some 1/4" stainless steel plates to the 
> facia to hold the
> posts. Hasn't been too bad. I'm bolting through 3/4" ipa and 1 1/4 PT 
> using 3/8" SS bolts.
> Bolts are coming in at about $1.00 apiece. I've just encountered a 
> section of the deck
> where I would need to bolt through either 4 1/4" or 6 3/4 inches. I 
> expect the cost of
> the bolts to be pretty high and was wondering if there would be much 
> difference in strength
> if I used say, 4" lag screws instead. Anybody have any experience with 
> doing this?
>
> Drew
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Aug  2 11:22:22 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 12:22:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exterior nighttime surveillance cameras?
In-Reply-To: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
References: <7984298D-9820-476B-BBBB-C6991D67FA0A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <501AB74E.1000300@hornesystemstx.com>

Jim, Check out www.supercircuits.com, they have good and inexpensive 
cameras and recorders. They have some stand alone cameras with built-in 
recorders. They also have higher price cameras they call "license plate" 
cameras which are very low light cameras and some dynamic compression to 
block out the headlights.

I have installed 4 of their 16 channel systems  using their CD33WHR-2 
cameras 
(http://www.supercircuits.com/Security-Cameras/Dome-Security-Cameras/CD33WHR-2) 
both indoors and out. They are not the best cameras, but do the job in 
restaurants. For the license plate use, I've used their PLPC101 
(http://www.supercircuits.com/Security-Cameras/Fixed-Security-Cameras/PCLP101), 
which does not have IR illumination, but is very low light level.

They also have some packaged devices that don't look like cameras, such 
as their CVEBBD system 
(http://www.supercircuits.com/Hidden-Cameras/Fixed-Covert-Cameras/CVTEBBD) 
They may be able to customize a recorder for you.

My contact is Mindi Parsons at 1=-800-335-9777. She knows her stuff.Give 
her a call if you like, even if you don't buy from them. You can tell 
her I sent you.

These can be purchased directly, or I can order them for you if you 
decide to go with this company.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 7/31/2012 8:36 PM:
> I'm interested in recording any movement such as kids driving by my mailbox
> with a baseball bat I mean seeing what wildlife comes through my yard at
> night. Ideally it would be motion sensor activated but with a very short
> delay, and quick recovery from headlights. Anything you use and like?
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From marka at maracing.com  Fri Aug  3 09:12:48 2012
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:12:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] which tie down best for car hauler
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1207151604540.46094@itonami.pair.com>
References: <4DE0885EAE444EC0AEAD1CE00FA61CF4@john5043a2d406>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1207151604540.46094@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208031109270.6938@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Sorry about the "blast from the past" but I'm going through old messages. 
Hopefully the topic isn't enough out of date to irritate...

I'm with David.  I tie the car down using the frame, which compresses the 
suspension a bit and certainly limits the car body movement.  I've been 
doing it for a long time towing race cars and never had an issue with it. 
I very much like that the car can't pitch around on its own suspension as 
much.

Also, I wanted to take a bit of exception to one of David's implications 
below... One of the reasons to tie the car down with the chassis and not 
the wheels is to _limit_ shock movement and therefore wear.  I imagine 
this matters more to us "stupidly expensive shocks on a racecar" folks, 
but I'd just as soon not put the extra miles on my shocks towing to an 
event.

Mark

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012, David Hillman wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Jul 2012, John Niolon wrote:
>> the trailer has 4 tie downs welded in , one at each corner and side board
>> anchors along each side, no rub rail.  wondering the best type of tie down 
>> to
>> use with the truck...  I like ther wheel basket straps on each wheel.. 
>> seems
>> it would secure it well but not pull down the suspension... which may or 
>> may
>> not affect towing ???
>
>   I know a lot of people prefer tieing down by the wheels, but I have never 
> liked the idea of a ton plus of vehicle suspended and moving around on my 
> trailer, in an emergency.  Everything I tow, mainly my 2000 pound racecar and 
> occasionally heavier ones for friends, gets strapped down by the tow-hooks on 
> the car, tight, whenever possible.  A 3-series BMW I've moved a few times 
> does not have attachment points on the chassis, so tieing to the wheels is 
> the only option, and you can feel the difference.
>
>   Last winter, I had to make an emergency lane change under hard braking at 
> the crest of a rise, due to an incredibly stupid cabbie on the Tollway, and 
> the trailer stayed right where it was supposed to be, behind my truck. Now, 
> maybe that would've happened anyway, but this seems safest to me. Maybe it'll 
> eventually wear out my shocks, but they have about 350,000 miles on 'em now 
> and dozens of tie-downs, so I'm okay with that.  Shocks, even expensive ones, 
> are far cheaper than the potential expense of crashing into a stopped cab, a 
> conversion van, and a 3rd vehicle on the shoulder.  YMMV.
>
>   As as aside, if you are looking for straps, this company in Ohio makes 
> very high quality pieces ( in Ohio, not China ).  I bought a set a couple 
> years ago, and have been very pleased.
>
> http://www.lodimetals.com/car-tie-downs
>
> --
> David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From jniolon at att.net  Fri Aug  3 17:26:30 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 18:26:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] florescent lighting question
Message-ID: <8744B0315DD74E338352611FDB23934A@john5043a2d406>

ok... I've about forgotten all my florescent light stuff...  kitchen fixture 4
- 4' t-12 bulbs in a wood frame (circa 1990)...two ballast ... been working
fine till lately... first only two bulbs would come on... tried changing
bulbs... same problem... now when you flip the switch it does one of four
things

1.  nothing (no lights)
2.  two bulbs come on very dimly
3.  all bulbs come on dimly
4.  All bulbs come on at normal brightness

when I get #1 I can keep trying and finally it will give me #4...

so...  bad ballast ???   ballast are getting expensive, it might be cheaper to
buy new fixture !

any way to test a ballast ???  I've tried switching bulbs around with no
success...  wifey getting annoyed...

tia
John




I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?

From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 19:55:15 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:55:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] florescent lighting question
In-Reply-To: <8744B0315DD74E338352611FDB23934A@john5043a2d406>
References: <8744B0315DD74E338352611FDB23934A@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CNdU-T76p=aEgOquYzDV+4kGieoijwQWeo+u3msKv=2zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 7:26 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
> so...  bad ballast ???   ballast are getting expensive, it might be cheaper to
> buy new fixture !

I vote for bad ballast.  A new ballast will run T-8 lamps, which you
will need sooner or later when T-12 becomes unavailable.

If you like the fixture, a new ballast is $30 - $35, which is probably
way cheaper than a new fixture.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Aug  3 20:45:10 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 22:45:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] heater cable for a truck
Message-ID: <2627e3d0.17d589.138ef85aa49.Webtop.44@charter.net>

Hi all

I need to source a cable (for my 71 J truck) that runs from the temp 
lever on dash to the heater box.

For the Datsuns we can just use bicycle cables since they can be bought 
long [short :-)] enough. Today I tried to buy what I wanted. I can get 
the outer housing long enough but the inner wire available was not long 
enough.

Does anyone know what I might be able to use for this?

Thanks!
tim

From greg at gelhar.com  Fri Aug  3 20:52:12 2012
From: greg at gelhar.com (Greg  Gelhar)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:52:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] florescent lighting question
References: <8744B0315DD74E338352611FDB23934A@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <37080FB506224251BB6F4010359B1ECE@triumph>

I'll bet I have that same fixture, now sitting in a corner of the garage. 
The lamp sockets are failing to make good connections. I like my new fixture 
with the electronic ballast and T8 lamps.

Greg G.
Osseo, MN


----- Original Message ----- 
Subject: [Shop-talk] florescent lighting question


> ok... I've about forgotten all my florescent light stuff...  kitchen 
> fixture 4
> - 4' t-12 bulbs in a wood frame (circa 1990)...two ballast ... been 
> working
> fine till lately... first only two bulbs would come on... tried changing
> bulbs... same problem... now when you flip the switch it does one of four
> things
>
> 1.  nothing (no lights)
> 2.  two bulbs come on very dimly
> 3.  all bulbs come on dimly
> 4.  All bulbs come on at normal brightness
>
> when I get #1 I can keep trying and finally it will give me #4...
>
> so...  bad ballast ???   ballast are getting expensive, it might be 
> cheaper to
> buy new fixture !
>
> any way to test a ballast ???  I've tried switching bulbs around with no
> success...  wifey getting annoyed...
>
> tia
> John
>
>
>
>
> I'm sarcastic... what's your superpower ?

From marka at maracing.com  Fri Aug  3 21:14:17 2012
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 23:14:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] heater cable for a truck
In-Reply-To: <2627e3d0.17d589.138ef85aa49.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <2627e3d0.17d589.138ef85aa49.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208032312490.19223@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Perhaps give Motion Pro a call?

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/custom/

They focus on the motorcycle market, but they seem really great to work 
with and it seems like a cable is a cable in many ways...

They were also pretty reasonably priced when I needed a custom cable for a 
pit bike.

Mark

On Fri, 3 Aug 2012, Tim wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I need to source a cable (for my 71 J truck) that runs from the temp
> lever on dash to the heater box.
>
> For the Datsuns we can just use bicycle cables since they can be bought
> long [short :-)] enough. Today I tried to buy what I wanted. I can get
> the outer housing long enough but the inner wire available was not long
> enough.
>
> Does anyone know what I might be able to use for this?
>
> Thanks!
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Aug  4 10:00:54 2012
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:00:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] O.T. - Free Concerts in  IL MN MT ND WI WY
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120804120028.04d50630@cox.net>

As most of you know, my son is in the Army and plays Clarinet for The Army
Field Band.  They are going on their Fall tour the middle to the end of Oct..

Anyone near any of the following cities, check out the show.  It's 
great, hi energy
music ala John Phillips Sousa.

Here's their schedule, look for a show near you.


October 12  7:00 PM    Laramie, WY
      University of Wyoming Fine Arts Center Concert Hall      For 
information call 307-766-6666

October 13  7:00 PM    Lander, WY
     Lander Valley High School 
Auditorium                            For Tickets/Info call 301-677-6586

October 14  3:00 PM  Powell, WY
      Powell High School 
Auditorium                                     For information call 
301-677-6586

October 15  7:00 PM    	Belgrade, MT
      Belgrade High School 
Auditorium                                 For Tickets/Info call 301-677-6586

October 16  7:00 PM    Conrad, MT
     Conrad High School 
Auditorium                                     For Tickets/Info call 
301-677-6586

October 18  7:00 PM    Great Falls, MT
      Mansfield Center for the Performing 
Arts                      For Tickets/Info call 406-455-8514

October 19  7:30 PM    Billings, MT
       Alberta Bair 
Theatre                                                  For 
Tickets/Info call 406-256-6052 or
                                                    visit 
http://www.albertabairtheater.org/event-detail.php?id=197

October 20  7:00 PM    Glendive, MT
      Dawson County High School Auditorium                        For 
Tickets/Info call 406-377-3303

October 21  3:00 PM    Bismarck, ND
      Century High School 
Gymnasium                                   For Tickets/Info call 301-677-6586

October 23  7:30 PM    Fargo, ND
      Fargo North High School 
Auditorium                              For Tickets/Info call 301-677-6586

October 24  7:30 PM    Grand Forks, ND
      University of North Dakota-Grand Forks - Chester Fritz Auditorium
                 For Tickets/Info call 301-677-6586 or visit 
http://www.cfa.und.edu/

October 25  7:00 PM    Bemidji, MN
      The Sanford 
Center                                                    For 
Tickets/Info call 218-751-3740 or visit
                                                                  http://www.thesanfordcenter.net/calendar.html

October 26  7:30 PM    Duluth, MN
      College of St Scholastica - Mitchell 
Auditorium               For Tickets/Info call 218-723-7000

October 27  7:30 PM    Saint Peter, MN
      Gustavus Adolphus College - Christ 
Chapel                    For Tickets/Info call 507-933-7590

October 28  4:00 PM    La Crosse, WI
      Viterbo University - Fine Arts Center Main Theatre         For 
information call 608-796-3100

October 29  7:30 PM    Whitewater, WI
      University of Wisconsin Whitewater - Young Auditorium   For 
information call 301-677-6586

October 30  7:00 PM  University Park, IL
      Governors State Univ. - The Ctr For Performing Arts        For 
information call 708-235-2222



John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Sat Aug  4 10:41:01 2012
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vincent Marshall)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 09:41:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] heater cable for a truck
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208032312490.19223@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <2627e3d0.17d589.138ef85aa49.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1208032312490.19223@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <A5E5177B-A75E-4325-9D2C-B7A802ABD594@te-motorworks.com>

Try to find a bicycle shop with cables for tandem bikes. They are
significantly longer than regular bicycle cables.  That's what I typically use
for things like this.

-vin

--
Vin Marshall
P: (510) 991-1090
F: (510) 338-6181
T: @temotorworks

>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2012, Tim wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I need to source a cable (for my 71 J truck) that runs from the temp
>> lever on dash to the heater box.
>>
>> For the Datsuns we can just use bicycle cables since they can be bought
>> long [short :-)] enough. Today I tried to buy what I wanted. I can get
>> the outer housing long enough but the inner wire available was not long
>> enough.
>>
>> Does anyone know what I might be able to use for this?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> tim
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/vlm at te-motorworks.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 16:42:11 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 17:42:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] heater cable for a truck
In-Reply-To: <A5E5177B-A75E-4325-9D2C-B7A802ABD594@te-motorworks.com>
References: <2627e3d0.17d589.138ef85aa49.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1208032312490.19223@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<A5E5177B-A75E-4325-9D2C-B7A802ABD594@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5supOWELER5ef8oZXnqQU_3T1NDQ1rYM91La8hPDY_Xx3Gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Vincent Marshall <vlm at te-motorworks.com> wrote:
> Try to find a bicycle shop with cables for tandem bikes. They are
> significantly longer than regular bicycle cables.  That's what I typically use
> for things like this.
>

Tandem brake cables are 3.5 meters long; shift cables are 3.1.  Should
be long enough for most under the hood uses.  If you're going to
solder an end on, get galvanized, it's easier to solder reliably to.
If your'e using as is, get stainless.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Aug  5 16:05:33 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 17:05:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
Message-ID: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>

I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving it
today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose has
split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring only a
socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here ever
done it?  I could certainly have the car towed to a mechanic, but doing it
myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a nice way
to say 'thanks'.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Aug  5 16:41:53 2012
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 18:41:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E35395FD-D10A-4A5F-BFC9-8D6A5F40BF8C@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 5, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:

> I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
> extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
> guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving it
> today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose has
> split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
> stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring only
a
> socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here ever
> done it?  I could certainly have the car towed to a mechanic, but doing it
> myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a nice
way
> to say 'thanks'.

If everything goes right it's very simple. But typically the nuts will be
stuck in place enough that a normal open end will just round off the nut. You
need a flare nut wrench which wraps around the nut touching all six sides.
Sometimes this doesn't work either, if they're really stuck.

However- if you break the things the lines are attached to, you've multiplied
your work/cost by 10, and now you're on the hook to follow through. You might
be able to get a mechanic to fix it quickly, especially if you can go through
the trouble of finding the parts and delivering them with the car if they
don't stock them.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug  6 01:28:33 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 03:28:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>

On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
> extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
> guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving it
> today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose has
> split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
> stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring only a
> socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here ever

An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an 
attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"

How long till any of the others blow? I wouldn't put myself or family in 
it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly inspected. Dunno how you 
would perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the 
wheel.

-Wayne

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 06:42:21 2012
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:42:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CAOEriikKNdWs2vHwvuDpef5E__szZiHmj1w-+aPOR4NsVPpg9A@mail.gmail.com>

It wasn't long ago that we expected an eight or nine year old vehicle to be
held together by hope and zip ties.  Now, a piece fails and you're ready to
call the lawyers?  Cars have come a long way in the last 25 years or so.  I
don't know if I can say the same about society.

-Paul

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 3:28 AM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
>
>> I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
>> extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
>> guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving
>> it
>> today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose has
>> split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
>> stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring
>> only a
>> socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here ever
>>
>
> An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an
> attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"
>
> How long till any of the others blow? I wouldn't put myself or family in
> it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly inspected. Dunno how you would
> perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the wheel.
>
> -Wayne

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  6 06:44:14 2012
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:44:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <E35395FD-D10A-4A5F-BFC9-8D6A5F40BF8C@groupwbench.org>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>,
	<E35395FD-D10A-4A5F-BFC9-8D6A5F40BF8C@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W35AFD8F3083974EDA1EAAE9ACF0@phx.gbl>

> > I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
> > extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
> > guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving
it
> > today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose
has
> > split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
> > stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring
only
> a
> > socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here
ever
> > done it?  I could certainly have the car towed to a mechanic, but doing
it
> > myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a
nice
> way
> > to say 'thanks'.
>
> If everything goes right it's very simple. But typically the nuts will be
> stuck in place enough that a normal open end will just round off the nut.
You
> need a flare nut wrench which wraps around the nut touching all six sides.
> Sometimes this doesn't work either, if they're really stuck.

agreed, b/c if the line itself is worn, the connection is probably seized as
well.  Had some luck on my brother's 98 Subaru by cutting it open.  With his
understanding that it might go horribly wrong and require bending new brake
lines, I took an angle grinder and small cutting disc to the outside female
connection, slicing it down the side, that and some penetrating oil got the
connection off pretty easily on both sides.  a little damage was done to the
nut on the inside, but those threads don't do any sealing, only the flared
brake line does.

Coworker has a Ford pickup, I think an F150 that he uses only for towing a
landscaping trailer.  Told me had some *hard* brake lines go on him at the
front recently due to rust.  Might've been an '04 or somewhere around there,
certainly not decades old or anything.  Spent way too much money having a shop
fix it after being told "it's a known issue".

PJ

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Aug  6 07:50:15 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 09:50:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <501FCB97.3010507@comcast.net>

On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
> extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
> guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving it
> today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose has
> split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
> stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring only a
> socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here ever
> done it?  I could certainly have the car towed to a mechanic, but doing it
> myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a nice way
> to say 'thanks'.

This is a safety issue on vehicle that's not yours and unless you 
comfortable, which by the question it appears you're not, I'd have have 
it done professionally.

> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Aug  6 08:03:24 2012
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:03:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <501FCEAC.4000305@comcast.net>

Wow.  Who knew Ford was the only auto company on the planet that had an issue with parts almost certainly supplied by a 
third-party manufacturer
who likely sold similar--if not the same--parts to GM, Chrysler and quite possibly some of the 'foreign' brands.

You learn something new every day.

Bob



On 8/6/2012 12:28 AM, Wayne wrote:
>
> An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No 
> wonder they call them "Exploders"
>
> How long till any of the others blow? I wouldn't put myself or family in it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly 
> inspected. Dunno how you would perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the wheel.
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Aug  6 08:17:09 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:17:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>,
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  I really wanted to fix it myself as a favor to my cousin, but
decided Jim was right.  Doing here without the proper tools was a potential
invitation to vacation-ruining disaster.  I called AAA and am having it towed
to the nearest dealer, who I will also have check out the other hoses.

BTW: just as a shop talk aside, Rock Auto has the replacement hoses for
$10-15.  They are about $35 at Autozone and $75 at the dealer.  The $35/75
difference seems about right, but I was really surprised to see Rock Auto so
much less than Autozone.

> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 03:28:33 -0400
> From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
>
> On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> > I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
> > extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
> > guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving
it
> > today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose
has
> > split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
> > stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring
only a
> > socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here
ever
>
> An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an
> attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"
>
> How long till any of the others blow? I wouldn't put myself or family in
> it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly inspected. Dunno how you
> would perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the
> wheel.
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Aug  6 08:42:42 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:42:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <501FD7E2.8000107@milleredp.com>

> An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an
> attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"

How long would you expect a brake hose to last?

Brake hoses do not see much UV (like tires or outside body rubber) or 
extremes of temperature (like engine-compartment seals, belts, and hoses 
or interior elastomers) but they are exposed to all of the crap that 
gets thrown around in the wheelwells and are in near-constant 
motion/flex while the vehicle's moving.

John.

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 08:46:32 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:46:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>

OE parts are always a good bet, but can usually be bought much cheaper from
sources other than a dealer. That said, braided stainless replacements are
usually even better for performance and longevity. I'd give good odds that
few people, even in this group go to the trouble of flushing the brakes on
their cars every couple of years. I don't flush brake systems as often as I
should. If that's not done problems are virtually guaranteed, while if it
is at least the hardware in the system will have a very long service life.

FWIW,
Ron

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> Thanks guys.  I really wanted to fix it myself as a favor to my cousin, but
> decided Jim was right.  Doing here without the proper tools was a potential
> invitation to vacation-ruining disaster.  I called AAA and am having it
> towed
> to the nearest dealer, who I will also have check out the other hoses.
>
> BTW: just as a shop talk aside, Rock Auto has the replacement hoses for
> $10-15.  They are about $35 at Autozone and $75 at the dealer.  The $35/75
> difference seems about right, but I was really surprised to see Rock Auto
> so
> much less than Autozone.
>
> > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 03:28:33 -0400
> > From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
> >
> > On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> > > I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who
> is
> > > extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for
> his
> > > guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were
> driving
> it
> > > today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose
> has
> > > split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on
> jack
> > > stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring
> only a
> > > socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here
> ever
> >
> > An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an
> > attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them
> "Exploders"
> >
> > How long till any of the others blow? I wouldn't put myself or family in
> > it till it's been on a lift and thoroughly inspected. Dunno how you
> > would perform such a repair without at least jacking it and pulling the
> > wheel.
> >
> > -Wayne
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Aug  6 08:50:09 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:50:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <007101cd73e2$c7113810$5533a830$@ameritech.net>

Our '89 Grand Caravan blew a front hose at about 21/2 years old.  Only a
12/12 warrantee of course.  I replaced all 3 hoses.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair

An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an
attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Aug  6 08:58:23 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:58:23 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <SNT127-W35AFD8F3083974EDA1EAAE9ACF0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>,
	<E35395FD-D10A-4A5F-BFC9-8D6A5F40BF8C@groupwbench.org>
	<SNT127-W35AFD8F3083974EDA1EAAE9ACF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <501FDB8F.80508@milleredp.com>

>> If everything goes right it's very simple. But typically the nuts will be
>> stuck in place enough that a normal open end will just round off the nut.
> You
>> need a flare nut wrench which wraps around the nut touching all six sides.
>> Sometimes this doesn't work either, if they're really stuck.

Soak them in PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, or equivalent an hour or two 
before you try wrenching on them.

You can try an open-end wrench, but watch the nut carefully for:

a) Signs of rounding off (stop BEFORE you cause real damage to the nut)
b) Signs that the tube is corroded in the nut and is twisting with it

If a good tube-nut wrench is unobtanium where you're at...I won't 
recommend this for everyone, but I've had very good luck with vise-grips 
(preferably the kind with concave jaws) on tube nuts.

You will probably mangle the hex on the nut a bit this way, but it's 
important NOT to squeeze them down on the nut so tightly that it crushes 
the nut on the tube or deforms the nut where it seats on the tube.

If the tube is rusted inside the tube nut and the nut will not turn on 
the tube, and you can't get it to loosen with a little gentle 
backing-and-forthing, you're probably screwed - at best you'll have to 
cut the end off the tube and re-flare it with a new tube nut, at worst 
you'll have to replace the line.   Even if it does come off, check the 
condition of everything carefully once it's loose.

> Coworker has a Ford pickup, I think an F150 that he uses only for towing a
> landscaping trailer.  Told me had some *hard* brake lines go on him at the
> front recently due to rust.  Might've been an '04 or somewhere around there,
> certainly not decades old or anything.  Spent way too much money having a shop
> fix it after being told "it's a known issue".

Oh yeah, brake hard-lines rust.  It used to be as normal as the rest of 
the car rusting away, but then cars don't rust as fast as they used to 
so...

John.

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Aug  6 09:25:35 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 08:25:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>
	<CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <501FE1EF.6020802@milleredp.com>

On 8/6/2012 7:46 AM, Ronnie Day wrote:
> OE parts are always a good bet, but can usually be bought much cheaper from
> sources other than a dealer. That said, braided stainless replacements are
> usually even better for performance and longevity.

The standard line on braided stainless hoses (which are really a teflon 
tube inside the braid) is that they don't 'bulge' as much as rubber 
hoses (which have a pile of reinforcing cord inside the rubber...)

That may be true, but (a) unless wrapped in some kind of protective 
covering, dirt and other abrasive crud can work its way through the 
braid down to the teflon and chew it up and (b) the teflon is sensitive 
to kinking, once it's kinked it's permanently weakened.  For this and 
other reasons 'traditional' field-assembled -3 AN Teflon hose and 
fittings are not DOT-approved, and manufactured assemblies have to 
provide enough strain-relief around the ends to prevent the hose from 
kinking.

For the most part, they're not really worth the hassle on a daily-driver 
IMO.

> few people, even in this group go to the trouble of flushing the brakes on
> their cars every couple of years. I don't flush brake systems as often as I
> should. If that's not done problems are virtually guaranteed, while if it
> is at least the hardware in the system will have a very long service life.

A very valid point.  I don't think regular flushing (which at least as 
of the last time I looked was still a 2-year service item on the BMW 
service list, and I think most other Germans as well...) will do much 
for hose life, but it'll definitely help everything else, as well as 
giving you a reason to get in there and look at the condition of all the 
stuff.

I don't do it rigidly per the 2-year schedule, I do it when I change 
pads and/or rotors, which usually works out to just a little more than 
that.

John.

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Mon Aug  6 09:28:24 2012
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:28:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <007101cd73e2$c7113810$5533a830$@ameritech.net>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<007101cd73e2$c7113810$5533a830$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRWDXNLgeRgHO0A5Lf2MPJzf=XMkscOgVbTe1JqEpiULpw@mail.gmail.com>

Our '04 4Runner is on the original lines at 120k miles...but they look like
a corroded mess and one of the front calipers seized at 99k miles.  So far
the caliper is the only failure to date, so not much to complain about.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> Our '89 Grand Caravan blew a front hose at about 2 1/2 years old.  Only a
> 12/12 warrantee of course.  I replaced all 3 hoses.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
>
> An 8 or 9 year old truck blew out a brake line?! Think I'd be calling an
> attorney, not a mechanic. What a POS. No wonder they call them "Exploders"
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Aug  6 09:35:32 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 11:35:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <501FE444.6040706@comcast.net>

On 8/5/2012 6:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> I am currently 'borrowing' a cousin's vacation house.  The cousin, who is
> extremely generous with the house, leaves his 2004 Explorer here for his
> guests to use.  Unfortunately, the brakes went out while we were driving it
> today and a little inspection revealed that the right front brake hose has
> split.  I only have limited tools here and no way to put the car on jack
> stands or ramps, but it looks like a very simple repair to me requiring only a
> socket wrench and one open end, followed by a bleed.  Has anyone here ever
> done it?  I could certainly have the car towed to a mechanic, but doing it
> myself would give us the car to use while we are vacationing and be a nice way
> to say 'thanks'.

If your not sure of yourself and this is a safety issue on vehicle 
that's not yours, I'd take to a mechanic.

> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Aug  6 12:39:01 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:39:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501FE1EF.6020802@milleredp.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>
	<CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<501FE1EF.6020802@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <005201cd7402$c0349300$409db900$@rr.com>

> the teflon is sensitive
> to kinking, once it's kinked it's permanently weakened.

True enough, but very unlikely to happen when properly installed in normal
service.  The issue was a DOT "whip test" where they anchored the line only
by one fitting and snapped it back and forth; not at all representative of
normal service.  Of course you have to be sure they can't be pulled tight at
the extremes of steering and suspension movement, but that is an issue with
any brake line.

At any rate, I've been running Teflon/braided stainless lines on several
different cars since around 1990, and I have never had any sort of failure
with them.  The improvement in pedal "feel" was not huge, but I could tell
the difference.  It just about compensates for the slightly softer pedal
caused by using DOT 5 brake fluid.  (Which also conveniently ducks the
requirement for periodic changes.)

I would seriously consider them for any application where the OE hoses
failed in less than 20 years.  That kind of failure on an 8 or 9 year old
vehicle is simply inexcusable IMO, and worthy of a report to the NHTSA.  If
you call up the local Ford dealer and suggest that, I suspect they would be
willing to replace all 3 or 4 hoses, quickly and free of charge.  There may
even be a "silent warranty" in place.

-- Randall 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Aug  6 12:49:19 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:49:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501FD7E2.8000107@milleredp.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com> <501FD7E2.8000107@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <005301cd7404$30602170$91206450$@rr.com>

> How long would you expect a brake hose to last?

Only anecdotal evidence, but I have never had a brake hose fail that was
less than 30 years old.  My 80 Chevy was still wearing original hoses when
scrapped in 2005; 95 Buick still wearing original hoses today.  Both
had/have over 250,000 miles.

Rear hose on my 59 Triumph failed around 1992 as I recall, but only
internally.  (I only installed the teflon lines on the front, never got
around to doing the rear until after it failed and held the brakes on.)  It
still did not leak fluid.  Not sure how many miles, but over 200,000.  I
forget the details, but the daughter is driving an early 90s Camry still
with original hoses and well over 200,000 on the clock.

But they don't salt the roads around here, and that may make a difference.
There was an SAE paper that showed salt/chloride would penetrate through the
hoses and I'm guessing it might have had some aging effect.

-- Randall 

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Aug  6 13:08:08 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 15:08:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Explorer brake lines
Message-ID: <OFE8C0F552.CC367C38-ON85257A52.00688CDA-85257A52.0069D21F@mail.megageek.com>

BTW, my 2001 Ford Explorer has 215,000 miles on it, and still all the 
original brake lines. (Original everything except alternator, steering 
linkage, and a few of the plastic clips on the drivers door handle.)

I don't mean to flame, but there are lots of factors for brake line 
longevity...

First, it sounds like this truck is near a large body of water (possibly 
salt) and sits, undriven, most of it's life, outside.  Those are three of 
the worst factors for metal components.

I've worked on an over 20 year old Ford van with only a line or two that 
was bad, but I more recently replaced a front brake line on a <4 year old 
Cadillac.  So I can't say that make and model mean anything.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 13:19:26 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:19:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501FDB8F.80508@milleredp.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>,
	<E35395FD-D10A-4A5F-BFC9-8D6A5F40BF8C@groupwbench.org>
	<SNT127-W35AFD8F3083974EDA1EAAE9ACF0@phx.gbl>
	<501FDB8F.80508@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <502018BE.2090509@gmail.com>

On 8/6/2012 10:58 AM, John Miller wrote:
> If a good tube-nut wrench is unobtanium where you're at...I won't 
> recommend this for everyone, but I've had very good luck with 
> vise-grips (preferably the kind with concave jaws) on tube nuts.
>
> You will probably mangle the hex on the nut a bit this way, but it's 
> important NOT to squeeze them down on the nut so tightly that it 
> crushes the nut on the tube or deforms the nut where it seats on the tube.

Man, I wish I was one of those guys that could remove something with 
Vice Grips and re-use it. By the time I have to use Vice Grips on a nut, 
I can get it off...but Vice Grips will be the only tool you could ever 
use to get the thing back on after that. And even that's iffy after I'm 
done with it.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 13:22:04 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:22:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <501FE1EF.6020802@milleredp.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>
	<CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<501FE1EF.6020802@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <5020195C.2010903@gmail.com>

Wow. I flush my cars every year, and I invariably manage to wish I 
hadn't because apparently I suck at bleeding. I had to take a Toyota to 
a shop once afterwards to get rid of the spongy pedal feel.

Sigh.

On 8/6/2012 11:25 AM, John Miller wrote:
>> their cars every couple of years. I don't flush brake systems as 
>> often as I
>> should. If that's not done problems are virtually guaranteed, while 
>> if it
>> is at least the hardware in the system will have a very long service 
>> life.
> few people, even in this group go to the trouble of flushing the 
> brakes on
>
> A very valid point.  I don't think regular flushing (which at least as 
> of the last time I looked was still a 2-year service item on the BMW 
> service list, and I think most other Germans as well...) will do much 
> for hose life, but it'll definitely help everything else, as well as 
> giving you a reason to get in there and look at the condition of all 
> the stuff.
>
> I don't do it rigidly per the 2-year schedule, I do it when I change 
> pads and/or rotors, which usually works out to just a little more than 
> that.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug  6 15:15:01 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:15:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <CAOEriikKNdWs2vHwvuDpef5E__szZiHmj1w-+aPOR4NsVPpg9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<CAOEriikKNdWs2vHwvuDpef5E__szZiHmj1w-+aPOR4NsVPpg9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <502033D5.3080109@xxiii.com>

On 8/6/2012 8:42 AM, Paul Parkanzky [and others] wrote:
> It wasn't long ago that we expected an eight or nine year old vehicle to
> be held together by hope and zip ties.  Now, a piece fails and you're
> ready to call the lawyers?  Cars have come a long way in the last 25
> years or so.  I don't know if I can say the same about society.

Sorry if I hit a nerve with some of you. I despise litigious jerks and 
ambulance chasing lawyers as much as anyone. I know a lot of you are 
into 1950s-ish LBCs and such. If that's your choice, fine. But all bets 
and expectations are off on reliability in that case.

Major failure of a safety critical part on a sub-ten year old mainstream 
21st century vehicle is unacceptable. Unless it somehow has crazy high 
miles, or has been abused. I consider a brake line to wear with age, 
rather than mileage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

I'm 45. Growing up in the 1970s, I remember cars commonly broken down on 
the side of the highway, frequent tune-ups required, and it was 
impressive if you car made it past 100k miles. Now a days synthetic 
rubber technology has made belt and hose failure nearly unheard of, and 
spark plugs go 100K.

 > Wow.  Who knew Ford was the only auto company on the planet that
 > had an issue with parts almost certainly supplied by a third-party
 > manufacturer who likely sold similar--if not the same--parts to GM, > 
 > Chrysler and quite possibly some of the 'foreign' brands.

Worked at one of those suppliers for nearly ten years (we did jet engine 
and military stuff, too) and have family at Dana and Faurecia. ZERO 
defects per million parts is DEMANDED. We had Delphi in Dayton OH call 
us up one day bitching our parts were out of tolerance, the line was 
shut down, and we were going to be slapped with huge costs. Turned out 
their AC had failed in the place, it was 90 degrees inside, and that was 
enough to expand the parts (ball joint receptacles) out of spec'.

 > How long would you expect a brake hose to last?

20+ years. They have on all my cars that age. Though I inspect them more 
frequently.

-Peace!  Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 19:19:02 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:19:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <502033D5.3080109@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<CAOEriikKNdWs2vHwvuDpef5E__szZiHmj1w-+aPOR4NsVPpg9A@mail.gmail.com>
	<502033D5.3080109@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <3E83AA7B-5854-4371-B951-90DFFC10485B@gmail.com>

On Aug 6, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> On 8/6/2012 8:42 AM, Paul Parkanzky [and others] wrote:
>> It wasn't long ago that we expected an eight or nine year old vehicle to
>> be held together by hope and zip ties.  Now, a piece fails and you're
>> ready to call the lawyers?  Cars have come a long way in the last 25
>> years or so.  I don't know if I can say the same about society.
>
> Sorry if I hit a nerve with some of you. I despise litigious jerks and
ambulance chasing lawyers as much as anyone. I know a lot of you are into
1950s-ish LBCs and such. If that's your choice, fine. But all bets and
expectations are off on reliability in that case.
>
> Major failure of a safety critical part on a sub-ten year old mainstream
21st century vehicle is unacceptable. Unless it somehow has crazy high miles,
or has been abused. I consider a brake line to wear with age, rather than
mileage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.
>

Age is the big factor but salt can kill these right quick. So if it's parked
at a salt beach I'm not shocked at the failure. The other thing that kills
these is mechanical damage.  A bit of off roading, or changes to the
suspension, can easily be at fault.

I can't speculate w/o knowing the history and seeing the hose.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Aug  6 20:10:51 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 21:10:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <3E83AA7B-5854-4371-B951-90DFFC10485B@gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>,
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>,
	<CAOEriikKNdWs2vHwvuDpef5E__szZiHmj1w-+aPOR4NsVPpg9A@mail.gmail.com>,
	<502033D5.3080109@xxiii.com>,
	<3E83AA7B-5854-4371-B951-90DFFC10485B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W1128671830BABA1803FADFCCCE0@phx.gbl>

Just to close the loop on this part of the discussion, the truck does
currently live near the beach (eastern Long Island) but spent most of
its life fairly landlocked in Westchester County, but was near the water many,
many weekends, so salt air could be a factor. I doubt the car
was ever taken off road, but it did see its share of snow.  It is only an
occasional use vehicle now, but that is a recent development.

I had it
towed to the dealer today and asked them to inspect the other lines; I
should know more about that tomorrow.  I suggested that 7 years wasn't
very long for a hydraulic hose to last and the service guy fell back on
'whoever last worked on the brakes may have damaged them'.  Not being my
 car, there is not much I can do about that.

> From: dmscheidt at gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:19:02 -0500
> To: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
>
> On Aug 6, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
>
> > On 8/6/2012 8:42 AM, Paul Parkanzky [and others] wrote:
> >> It wasn't long ago that we expected an eight or nine year old vehicle to
> >> be held together by hope and zip ties.  Now, a piece fails and you're
> >> ready to call the lawyers?  Cars have come a long way in the last 25
> >> years or so.  I don't know if I can say the same about society.
> >
> > Sorry if I hit a nerve with some of you. I despise litigious jerks and
> ambulance chasing lawyers as much as anyone. I know a lot of you are into
> 1950s-ish LBCs and such. If that's your choice, fine. But all bets and
> expectations are off on reliability in that case.
> >
> > Major failure of a safety critical part on a sub-ten year old mainstream
> 21st century vehicle is unacceptable. Unless it somehow has crazy high
miles,
> or has been abused. I consider a brake line to wear with age, rather than
> mileage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.
> >
>
> Age is the big factor but salt can kill these right quick. So if it's
parked
> at a salt beach I'm not shocked at the failure. The other thing that kills
> these is mechanical damage.  A bit of off roading, or changes to the
> suspension, can easily be at fault.
>
> I can't speculate w/o knowing the history and seeing the hose.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Aug  7 07:54:36 2012
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 09:54:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>
	<CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208070942060.7799@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Ronnie Day wrote:
> OE parts are always a good bet, but can usually be bought much cheaper 
> from sources other than a dealer. That said, braided stainless 
> replacements are usually even better for performance and longevity.

I agree that OE parts are a good bet and that they can usually be bought 
cheaper from places other than the local dealer.

But I'm going to disagree pretty strongly on the SS brake lines 
recommendation.  SS lines have the following problems, for me:

* Not as durable as OE.  They're more prone to kinking and are likely to 
get crap stuck in the braid that then wears away at the inner lining.

* Varying quality.  This comes in the form of fitment issues for your 
particular application, assembly issues, rusting issues, etc.

* PITA.  If you have to replace the brake lines anyway then this goes 
away, but generally speaking people are doing this as an upgrade. 
Changing brake lines "just because" is annoying.

Coupled with that, modern cars these days don't see any performance 
improvement from brake lines.  OE lines are well engineered, work well, 
and by now have been that way for a long time.

Anyway, the biggest one of all of those for me is the varying quality 
stuff.  Its not hard to find stories / pictures of SS lines that have 
failed catastrophically in a performance / well maintained setting.  I 
don't recall EVER hearing of an OE brake line that's failed in the same 
scenario.  Which, to me, isn't all that surprising.  OE's have a LOT to 
lose if they poorly engineer brake lines.  Extremely small performance 
parts manufacturers (usually with explict "not for highway use" 
disclaimers) don't have anything like the same motivation.

But as always, YMMV.

Mark

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  7 20:30:39 2012
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 22:30:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Explorer Brake Line Repair
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208070942060.7799@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <COL115-W47EA814EC4C74C50B0C14ACCC80@phx.gbl>,
	<501F7221.8070908@xxiii.com>,
	<COL115-W8D0B489631A985A1BD506CCCF0@phx.gbl>,
	<CAMHhs6cAHMSddnVOkwNitpcP=9jhQ1E=5sO1fUMboWf4=aaCjw@mail.gmail.com>,
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1208070942060.7799@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W6468936E29D995F483C4459ACD0@phx.gbl>

> I agree that OE parts are a good bet and that they can usually be bought
> cheaper from places other than the local dealer.

Same. you very rarely go wrong with OE in this situation.

> But I'm going to disagree pretty strongly on the SS brake lines
> recommendation.  SS lines have the following problems, for me:
>
> * Not as durable as OE.  They're more prone to kinking and are likely to
> get crap stuck in the braid that then wears away at the inner lining.

A good quality line will have an outer plastic covering to to prevent dirt
getting into the braids, and help keep it clean looking too.  Just checked and
-3 AN Teflon has  a 2" bend radius, so it seems like it would be hard to
seriously kink a line unless you really f'd up the install and didn't put any
thought into wheel movement up/down left/right.  I'm sure many an "enthusiast"
has done this.

> * Varying quality.  This comes in the form of fitment issues for your
> particular application, assembly issues, rusting issues, etc.

Again, don't skimp on cheap parts for your brakes.  There are good names out
there that I would trust.  I would also stay away from any lines that are
*not* DOT approved.

> * PITA.  If you have to replace the brake lines anyway then this goes
> away, but generally speaking people are doing this as an upgrade.
> Changing brake lines "just because" is annoying.
Found this article somewhat helpful, as it seems there is a small advantage to
using braided lines, however they don't take into account heat building up in
the fluid or line itself, or it's effect on pedal travel for the driver...
sort of begs for a real world test...  (great site by the way, I've spent the
last year or so slowly picking over their archives...)
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2679/article.html
> improvement from brake lines.  OE lines are well engineered, work well, >
and by now have been that way for a long time.
>
> Anyway, the biggest one of all of those for me is the varying quality
> stuff.  Its not hard to find stories / pictures of SS lines that have
> failed catastrophically in a performance / well maintained setting.  I
> don't recall EVER hearing of an OE brake line that's failed in the same
> scenario.  Which, to me, isn't all that surprising.  OE's have a LOT to
> lose if they poorly engineer brake lines.  Extremely small performance
> parts manufacturers (usually with explict "not for highway use"
> disclaimers) don't have anything like the same motivation.

I've not looked extensively, but I'd be curious to hear about any stories of
failures (my guess is they are all poor quality lines, or improper
installations to blame).  I've had braided lines on all my cars, which have
all done duty as autocrossers and track day cars for some part of their life.
No issues I've had, seen or heard of.
Also looking for evidence of OEMs using braided lines on their product lines,
though I'm guess probably only the high performance cars might get them, if
anything.
> But as always, YMMV.
>
> Mark

From phoenix722 at comcast.net  Wed Aug  8 16:49:05 2012
From: phoenix722 at comcast.net (Mike)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 15:49:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] test
Message-ID: <300DE461AD22442F8C72A8C09226F2EE@Mike>


From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Mon Aug 13 08:28:09 2012
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:28:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRUbTUgtMsPkVx_MVqZWq=+1mu1P=BKESAHNKHv_m3GYOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Quick question.  Has anyone created an Excel spreadsheet to calculate
extension cord gauge requirements?

A friend of mine asked what size extension cords to get for his generator
and I of course I said "it depends."  Not being an electrician or an EE, I
pointed him to the formulas on eHow and showed him how to create a
spreadsheet (attached) that would calculate what extension cord gauge is
needed.
http://www.ehow.com/how_7812266_calculate-needed-make-extension-cord.html

Before he goes out and buys extension cords based on what the spreadsheet
says, I told him to hold-off until I could at least ask some other people
to double-check the spreadsheet theory and answers.  If you have a moment,
let me know what you think of the spreadsheet results.  Also, would be
interested in knowing if there is a better spreadsheet/calculator for this.

Thanks in advance,
Ian

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/vnd]

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Aug 13 11:30:41 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:30:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRUbTUgtMsPkVx_MVqZWq=+1mu1P=BKESAHNKHv_m3GYOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFnfnRUbTUgtMsPkVx_MVqZWq=+1mu1P=BKESAHNKHv_m3GYOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9WoHxvct_dJ_njeTN+=d==3sDVkq9JHp-=sNSQ4asEJ_g@mail.gmail.com>

Ehow can be a rather dubious source of information.
That formula looks reasonable, but the example in the description suggests
using 11 gauge wire, which does not really exist.

Assuming he has a 120-volt generator and a 120-volt load,  he should get a
12-gauge
cord for a large load, or a long run.  14 gauge is OK for smaller stuff, or
even 16 gauge
for little things like electronics.

Doug


On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Ian McFetridge
<shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>wrote:

> Quick question.  Has anyone created an Excel spreadsheet to calculate
> extension cord gauge requirements?
>
> A friend of mine asked what size extension cords to get for his generator
> and I of course I said "it depends."  Not being an electrician or an EE, I
> pointed him to the formulas on eHow and showed him how to create a
> spreadsheet (attached) that would calculate what extension cord gauge is
> needed.
> http://www.ehow.com/how_7812266_calculate-needed-make-extension-cord.html
>
> Before he goes out and buys extension cords based on what the spreadsheet
> says, I told him to hold-off until I could at least ask some other people
> to double-check the spreadsheet theory and answers.  If you have a moment,
> let me know what you think of the spreadsheet results.  Also, would be
> interested in knowing if there is a better spreadsheet/calculator for this.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ian
>
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/vnd]
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com

From badgermt at cableone.net  Mon Aug 13 12:40:41 2012
From: badgermt at cableone.net (Badger Mountain Motorworks)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:40:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wooden Deck Stain  .  .  .
Message-ID: <50294A29.7030300@cableone.net>

/local/mailman/lynxXXXX6U0qow: Permission denied

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 12:49:17 2012
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:49:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Deck Replacement
Message-ID: <CANuE7YCdoVLNEm__3HJg0Qn38tVBuNiqV_ev2wpWTdOyG8xVXw@mail.gmail.com>

Ok team, here is the situation.  The wood deck on my car hauler trailer is
getting a little old.  I also have a house deck that needs to be replaced.
The two projects got me thinking.  Could I use composite maintenance free
product for both?  I have never seen anyone do this on a trailer, but it
should work right?

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 13 13:32:43 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:32:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Deck Replacement
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YCdoVLNEm__3HJg0Qn38tVBuNiqV_ev2wpWTdOyG8xVXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YCdoVLNEm__3HJg0Qn38tVBuNiqV_ev2wpWTdOyG8xVXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5029565B.8000700@xxiii.com>

Interesting. Have a friend with similar trailer he uses to haul a small 
Kubota tractor on, suffering deck rot. Had not thought to use the 
composite stuff. First guess is, it's not quite as strong, but I could 
be way off. And there are many brands and formulations of composite. 
Curious to hear if anyone has solid info.
   -Wayne

On 8/13/2012 2:49 PM, John Innis wrote:
> Ok team, here is the situation.  The wood deck on my car hauler trailer is
> getting a little old.  I also have a house deck that needs to be replaced.
> The two projects got me thinking.  Could I use composite maintenance free
> product for both?  I have never seen anyone do this on a trailer, but it
> should work right?

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 14:02:33 2012
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:02:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Deck Replacement
In-Reply-To: <5029565B.8000700@xxiii.com>
References: <CANuE7YCdoVLNEm__3HJg0Qn38tVBuNiqV_ev2wpWTdOyG8xVXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5029565B.8000700@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CA+7Nz3pM3Kr=NfaxK6mgUBW-e7WHQNFy=gbkkowwbz7uxsTrNQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Consider the weight, some of the composite is very heavy compared to wood.
*
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> Interesting. Have a friend with similar trailer he uses to haul a small
> Kubota tractor on, suffering deck rot. Had not thought to use the composite
> stuff. First guess is, it's not quite as strong, but I could be way off.
> And there are many brands and formulations of composite. Curious to hear if
> anyone has solid info.
>   -Wayne
>
>
> On 8/13/2012 2:49 PM, John Innis wrote:
>
>> Ok team, here is the situation.  The wood deck on my car hauler trailer is
>> getting a little old.  I also have a house deck that needs to be replaced.
>> The two projects got me thinking.  Could I use composite maintenance free
>> product for both?  I have never seen anyone do this on a trailer, but it
>> should work right?
>>
>  ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com>

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 13 14:33:50 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRUbTUgtMsPkVx_MVqZWq=+1mu1P=BKESAHNKHv_m3GYOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFnfnRUbTUgtMsPkVx_MVqZWq=+1mu1P=BKESAHNKHv_m3GYOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1344890030.8198.YahooMailNeo@web140005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

It depends on what he's going to run from the generator. As a reference, the
small compressor I have will run the first time and pump up to the shutoff.
Anything else after that it suffers. Starts, Stops before the shutoff. I was
using 50ft of 14 guage. It works fine when plugged directly into the outlet or
using a heavier gauge extension. At first I thought it was overheating and put
a fan on it, and it helped slightly but it kept having the start issue until I
plugged in directly to the outlet. That same extension has issues running a
14" fan from a small inverter too, but it runs lower demand items with no
problems. Similar findings as the compressor. Works fine when plugged directly
into the inverter. The 12g extension is pricey, but if needed, get it. 
Regards,
B




>________________________________
> From: Ian McFetridge
<shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>
>To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
>Sent:
Monday, August 13, 2012 10:28 AM
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge
per load and distance
> 
>Quick question.  Has anyone created an Excel
spreadsheet to calculate
>extension cord gauge requirements?
>
>A friend of
mine asked what size extension cords to get for his generator
>and I of course
I said "it depends."  Not being an electrician or an EE, I
>pointed him to the
formulas on eHow and showed him how to create a
>spreadsheet (attached) that
would calculate what extension cord gauge is
>needed.
>http://www.ehow.com/how_7812266_calculate-needed-make-extension-cord.html
>
>Before he goes out and buys extension cords based on what the spreadsheet
>says, I told him to hold-off until I could at least ask some other people
>to
double-check the spreadsheet theory and answers.  If you have a moment,
>let
me know what you think of the spreadsheet results.  Also, would be
>interested
in knowing if there is a better spreadsheet/calculator for this.
>
>Thanks in
advance,
>Ian
>
>[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/vnd]
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/battmain at yahoo.com

From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 14:40:49 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:40:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Deck Replacement
In-Reply-To: <5029565B.8000700@xxiii.com>
References: <CANuE7YCdoVLNEm__3HJg0Qn38tVBuNiqV_ev2wpWTdOyG8xVXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5029565B.8000700@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPGfpOTBYn7ucBFmEzKZLHhLRAs5E9fQp-D1sF+ONrESA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> First guess is, it's not quite as strong, but I could be way off.

Some years ago, we built a playground out of plastic framing and
composite decking.  The framing, which seemed to be made from old
grocery bags or something similar, has all been replaced due to
sagging.  The decking is all still good.  But it wouldn't hold a car
on 24" centers.

If you got plastic 2x lumber and put it on edge, maybe -- but not
laying flat...in short, I wouldn't waste my time.

And I'm told that composite decking retains heat a lot longer.  Dunno
if that's a myth or not.  Might be worth checking out before you build
a deck in a sunny spot.

Jeff Scarbrough
Synthetic Acres, Ga.

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 14:54:11 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:54:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Deck Replacement
In-Reply-To: <CA+7Nz3pM3Kr=NfaxK6mgUBW-e7WHQNFy=gbkkowwbz7uxsTrNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YCdoVLNEm__3HJg0Qn38tVBuNiqV_ev2wpWTdOyG8xVXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5029565B.8000700@xxiii.com>
	<CA+7Nz3pM3Kr=NfaxK6mgUBW-e7WHQNFy=gbkkowwbz7uxsTrNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6cufPeOd2yCRx2rm1JD_Q+k-UfrZDnVNzDba4-LW_TupA@mail.gmail.com>

Some years ago we bought a 5 x 12 utility trailer decked with ordinary 2 x
12s. We painted the top of the 2 x with quality exterior paint but after
two or three years sitting out with a slight tongue high angle which caused
water to drain to the back and soak the raw end grain, it was rotted out.

We replaced the original wood with treated 2 x 12 cut to length and painted
on all 6 sides thoroughly before putting them down with about 3/8 space
between them. I cut off the flat plate holding wood in the angle iron along
the back edge and drilled several holes in the corner of the angle to
minimize water sitting in there. Don't remember the total cost but it
wasn't too bad.

No problems at all since then.

FWIW,
Ron

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark <eltonclark at gmail.com
> wrote:

> *Consider the weight, some of the composite is very heavy compared to wood.
> *
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
>
> > Interesting. Have a friend with similar trailer he uses to haul a small
> > Kubota tractor on, suffering deck rot. Had not thought to use the
> composite
> > stuff. First guess is, it's not quite as strong, but I could be way off.
> > And there are many brands and formulations of composite. Curious to hear
> if
> > anyone has solid info.
> >   -Wayne
> >
> >
> > On 8/13/2012 2:49 PM, John Innis wrote:
> >
> >> Ok team, here is the situation.  The wood deck on my car hauler trailer
> is
> >> getting a little old.  I also have a house deck that needs to be
> replaced.
> >> The two projects got me thinking.  Could I use composite maintenance
> free
> >> product for both?  I have never seen anyone do this on a trailer, but it
> >> should work right?
> >>
> >  ______________________________**_________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<
> http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> > options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com<
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Mon Aug 13 20:55:41 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:55:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Deck Replacement
In-Reply-To: <CA+7Nz3pM3Kr=NfaxK6mgUBW-e7WHQNFy=gbkkowwbz7uxsTrNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuE7YCdoVLNEm__3HJg0Qn38tVBuNiqV_ev2wpWTdOyG8xVXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5029565B.8000700@xxiii.com>
	<CA+7Nz3pM3Kr=NfaxK6mgUBW-e7WHQNFy=gbkkowwbz7uxsTrNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5029BE2D.10100@frontier.com>

In addition to the weight, composite material sags quite a bit more than 
wood.  When I had my Timber Tech deck built the joists were put on 12" 
centers.


On 8/13/2012 1:02 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> *Consider the weight, some of the composite is very heavy compared to wood.
> *
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting. Have a friend with similar trailer he uses to haul a small
>> Kubota tractor on, suffering deck rot. Had not thought to use the composite
>> stuff. First guess is, it's not quite as strong, but I could be way off.
>> And there are many brands and formulations of composite. Curious to hear if
>> anyone has solid info.
>>    -Wayne
>>
>>
>> On 8/13/2012 2:49 PM, John Innis wrote:
>>
>>> Ok team, here is the situation.  The wood deck on my car hauler trailer is
>>> getting a little old.  I also have a house deck that needs to be replaced.
>>> The two projects got me thinking.  Could I use composite maintenance free
>>> product for both?  I have never seen anyone do this on a trailer, but it
>>> should work right?
>>>
>>   ______________________________**_________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
>> options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Tue Aug 14 06:10:49 2012
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 08:10:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRUbTUgtMsPkVx_MVqZWq=+1mu1P=BKESAHNKHv_m3GYOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFnfnRUbTUgtMsPkVx_MVqZWq=+1mu1P=BKESAHNKHv_m3GYOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRWEqrsT31qqjHk-j-wr0K9BOdQfrejN4Z=a9wF3yms4Yg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks guys.  I reminded my friend not to go into a store and ask for an
AWG 11 cord.  haha
And I also reminded him to use the surge/startup amperage listed on some
appliances rather than just the steady-state load.  Finally, I pointed out
that he wouldn't have to worry about this if he had an electrician connect
his generator to his panel...he said he is too cheap, we'll see how he
feels about buying all of those extension cords!

- Ian

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Ian McFetridge
<shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>wrote:

> Quick question.  Has anyone created an Excel spreadsheet to calculate
> extension cord gauge requirements?
>
> A friend of mine asked what size extension cords to get for his generator
> and I of course I said "it depends."  Not being an electrician or an EE, I
> pointed him to the formulas on eHow and showed him how to create a
> spreadsheet (attached) that would calculate what extension cord gauge is
> needed.
> http://www.ehow.com/how_7812266_calculate-needed-make-extension-cord.html
>
> Before he goes out and buys extension cords based on what the spreadsheet
> says, I told him to hold-off until I could at least ask some other people
> to double-check the spreadsheet theory and answers.  If you have a moment,
> let me know what you think of the spreadsheet results.  Also, would be
> interested in knowing if there is a better spreadsheet/calculator for this.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ian

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Aug 14 06:27:36 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 08:27:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
Message-ID: <1a61fbc5.28440b.139251a7d0a.Webtop.43@charter.net>

Heavy duty extension cords are pretty pricey. I had my compressor (240 
hard wired) connected to the panel in my garage and it cost under $100. 
I am guessing he will pay close to that for a heavy duty cord....

50 ft 10 gauge over $85....

 
http://www.gemplers.com/product/181891/50-ft-10-gauge-Heavy-duty-Extension-Cables?sku=181891&src=25SEPLA&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=181891&gclid=CNrr9uqO57ECFcVAMgod9l4A9Q


On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:

> Thanks guys.  I reminded my friend not to go into a store and ask for 
> an
> AWG 11 cord.  haha
> And I also reminded him to use the surge/startup amperage listed on 
> some
> appliances rather than just the steady-state load.  Finally, I pointed 
> out
> that he wouldn't have to worry about this if he had an electrician 
> connect
> his generator to his panel...he said he is too cheap, we'll see how he
> feels about buying all of those extension cords!
>
> - Ian
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Ian McFetridge
> <shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>wrote:
>
>> Quick question.  Has anyone created an Excel spreadsheet to calculate
>> extension cord gauge requirements?
>>
>> A friend of mine asked what size extension cords to get for his 
>> generator
>> and I of course I said "it depends."  Not being an electrician or an 
>> EE, I
>> pointed him to the formulas on eHow and showed him how to create a
>> spreadsheet (attached) that would calculate what extension cord gauge 
>> is
>> needed.
>> 
>> http://www.ehow.com/how_7812266_calculate-needed-make-extension-cord.html
>>
>> Before he goes out and buys extension cords based on what the 
>> spreadsheet
>> says, I told him to hold-off until I could at least ask some other 
>> people
>> to double-check the spreadsheet theory and answers.  If you have a 
>> moment,
>> let me know what you think of the spreadsheet results.  Also, would 
>> be
>> interested in knowing if there is a better spreadsheet/calculator for 
>> this.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Ian
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Aug 14 16:08:19 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:08:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <1a61fbc5.28440b.139251a7d0a.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>

Just tell him to back feed the panel and make sure he shuts off the main 
before starting the genny.

This way, he only needs one heavy cable (and it can be as short as 
possible) and he has his whole house wired properly.

Note:  This is against every code I know, but it is safe if you are 
mindful of what you are doing.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 



Heavy duty extension cords are pretty pricey. I had my compressor (240 
hard wired) connected to the panel in my garage and it cost under $100. 
I am guessing he will pay close to that for a heavy duty cord....

50 ft 10 gauge over $85....

 
http://www.gemplers.com/product/181891/50-ft-10-gauge-Heavy-duty-Extension-Cables?sku=181891&src=25SEPLA&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=181891&gclid=CNrr9uqO57ECFcVAMgod9l4A9Q



On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Tue Aug 14 18:53:52 2012
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 00:53:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clean and lube suggestions for A/C fan
In-Reply-To: <1847693258.558670.1344991896153.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <176992098.558801.1344992032564.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

My window air conditioner started up a few days ago sounding very ill. Clearly the fan/blower bearings are noisy, so I pulled all apart, cleaned and am thinking lubrication would be in order.

I think it has sleeve bearings, but I'm not certain. I just spun it again and it feels like balls without the fan and blower attached. (GE; 1/10HP; 1000/860/700 RPM; 120VAC; 1.40A; 1-phase double-ended; thermally protected; class B insulation; "SKCP 29HC A101CS" (presumably model or type) if anyone recognises it.)

I haven't used any solvents yet on the bearing region, because I don't want to wash any crud into the bearings.

I am soliciting suggestions for cleaning and re-lubricating the bearings - most things are accessible but the motor case is riveted shut, so I'll not be opening it that far.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 19:56:02 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:56:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <E1087155-26FB-47E0-B643-85221C78552E@gmail.com>

On Aug 14, 2012, at 5:08 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

> Just tell him to back feed the panel and make sure he shuts off the main
> before starting the genny.
>
> This way, he only needs one heavy cable (and it can be as short as
> possible) and he has his whole house wired properly.
>
> Note:  This is against every code I know, but it is safe if you are
> mindful of what you are doing.
>

Trusting people to have sense in a crisis is *exactly * why it's against code.

Do not do this.



> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
> Heavy duty extension cords are pretty pricey. I had my compressor (240
> hard wired) connected to the panel in my garage and it cost under $100.
> I am guessing he will pay close to that for a heavy duty cord....
>
> 50 ft 10 gauge over $85....
>
>
>
http://www.gemplers.com/product/181891/50-ft-10-gauge-Heavy-duty-Extension-Ca
bles?sku=181891&src=25SEPLA&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=181891&gclid=CNrr9uqO57ECF
cVAMgod9l4A9Q
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Aug 14 20:12:44 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 19:12:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <1a61fbc5.28440b.139251a7d0a.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1fd201cd7a8b$75624630$0601a8c0@randall>

> Just tell him to back feed the panel and make sure he shuts 
> off the main 
> before starting the genny.

A little poking about on eBay turned up several transfer switches in the $50
- $150 range.

I sure would hate to think I'd killed a man for $150, and as David said, it
is all too easy for someone to do something stupid.

OTOH, you could probably get some play on YouTube with the video of the gen
set exploding when someone accidentally closes the switch before pulling the
plug.

-- Randall  

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Aug 14 20:11:20 2012
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 22:11:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <E1087155-26FB-47E0-B643-85221C78552E@gmail.com>
References: <OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
	<E1087155-26FB-47E0-B643-85221C78552E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0M8R00GIAY5DOVM0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Another approach is to use an interlock kit.  Check 
this:  http://www.interlockkit.com/.  This gives you essentially the 
same result as backfeeding the panel, without the code violation or danger.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 09:56 PM 8/14/2012, David Scheidt wrote:
>On Aug 14, 2012, at 5:08 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
> > Just tell him to back feed the panel and make sure he shuts off the main
> > before starting the genny.
> >
> > This way, he only needs one heavy cable (and it can be as short as
> > possible) and he has his whole house wired properly.
> >
> > Note:  This is against every code I know, but it is safe if you are
> > mindful of what you are doing.
> >
>
>Trusting people to have sense in a crisis is *exactly * why it's against code.
>
>Do not do this.

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 21:37:15 2012
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 23:37:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <1a61fbc5.28440b.139251a7d0a.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP89hP7OwsovBg+0rvB1VSMynfL3Fq6rBHm=Stt1oPqxqg@mail.gmail.com>

I am looking at one of these for my place:

http://www.interlockkit.com/index.htm

Relatively cheap, and meets code requirements.

-Peter
On Aug 14, 2012 6:15 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Just tell him to back feed the panel and make sure he shuts off the main
> before starting the genny.
>
> This way, he only needs one heavy cable (and it can be as short as
> possible) and he has his whole house wired properly.
>
> Note:  This is against every code I know, but it is safe if you are
> mindful of what you are doing.
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
> Heavy duty extension cords are pretty pricey. I had my compressor (240
> hard wired) connected to the panel in my garage and it cost under $100.
> I am guessing he will pay close to that for a heavy duty cord....
>
> 50 ft 10 gauge over $85....
>
>
>
> http://www.gemplers.com/product/181891/50-ft-10-gauge-Heavy-duty-Extension-Cables?sku=181891&src=25SEPLA&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=181891&gclid=CNrr9uqO57ECFcVAMgod9l4A9Q
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/forumsUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From mattmahony at comcast.net  Wed Aug 15 10:06:29 2012
From: mattmahony at comcast.net (Matt Mahoney)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 09:06:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clean and lube suggestions for A/C fan
In-Reply-To: <176992098.558801.1344992032564.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <176992098.558801.1344992032564.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <502BC905.2090605@comcast.net>

Donald;

Never seen a ball bearing in one of these, I'm sure it is sleeve 
bearings, usually oil impregnated. No solvent should be necessary, just 
some turbine oil or spray silicone lube. Just work it in from the shaft 
end. I've done this on lots of motors. If they still won't free up you 
will have to crack it open and pull the shaft out of the bearing.  Most 
of this type motor use through bolts parallel to the shaft. I've never 
done a riveted case so I can't tell you how to deal with those.
By the way, the GE number is 5KCP29.  All GE motors are 5KCP and 29 is 
the frame size. The HCA101CS is the specific item.

Good luck,
Matt

On 8/14/2012 5:53 PM, Donald H Locker wrote:
> My window air conditioner started up a few days ago sounding very ill. Clearly the fan/blower bearings are noisy, so I pulled all apart, cleaned and am thinking lubrication would be in order.
>
> I think it has sleeve bearings, but I'm not certain. I just spun it again and it feels like balls without the fan and blower attached. (GE; 1/10HP; 1000/860/700 RPM; 120VAC; 1.40A; 1-phase double-ended; thermally protected; class B insulation; "SKCP 29HC A101CS" (presumably model or type) if anyone recognises it.)
>
> I haven't used any solvents yet on the bearing region, because I don't want to wash any crud into the bearings.
>
> I am soliciting suggestions for cleaning and re-lubricating the bearings - most things are accessible but the motor case is riveted shut, so I'll not be opening it that far.
>
> Donald.
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> ()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mattmahony at comcast.net

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Aug 15 14:25:23 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:25:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
Message-ID: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>

I have just returned from a two week vacation and my home PC is completely
dead.  Even though it is plugged into a surge protector, I unplugged it and my
router before I left town, although I did leave the ethernet cable in.
Everything else in the house seems to be working fine, with the exception of a
CO2 dector, which perhaps coincidently now shows ERR on the display.  Still,
that seems like only a concidence, as the only connection between the PC and
the outside world was the ethernet cord.  However, I do know there was at
least one severe thunderstorm warning for the area while I was gone.

I know enough to be able to install new components in the box, but have no
idea where to start trouble shooting when it is totally unresponsive.  It is
not a high end PC, but plenty sufficient for my home needs.  I confirmed that
the cord was good, but that has been it so far.  Any recommendations on what I
should do next?

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Wed Aug 15 14:42:22 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:42:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <502C09AE.2080506@comcast.net>

On 8/15/2012 4:25 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> I have just returned from a two week vacation and my home PC is completely
> dead.  Even though it is plugged into a surge protector, I unplugged it and my
> router before I left town, although I did leave the ethernet cable in.
> Everything else in the house seems to be working fine, with the exception of a
> CO2 dector, which perhaps coincidently now shows ERR on the display.  Still,
> that seems like only a concidence, as the only connection between the PC and
> the outside world was the ethernet cord.  However, I do know there was at
> least one severe thunderstorm warning for the area while I was gone.
>
> I know enough to be able to install new components in the box, but have no
> idea where to start trouble shooting when it is totally unresponsive.  It is
> not a high end PC, but plenty sufficient for my home needs.  I confirmed that
> the cord was good, but that has been it so far.  Any recommendations on what I
> should do next?

I had a lightning strike near my house, probably a tree.  It did not 
strike the power/phone lines but was close enough for an EM pulse. I 
lost a PC that was disconnected at the time, some of the flash memory 
was wiped and the CRT TV was gaussed.

As for diagnosing, I'd start with power supply.  Disconnect and test 
with a volt meter.

> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Aug 15 14:44:14 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:44:14 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>

You could try removing the ethernet card and then seeing what happens,
but offhand I'd say your power supply is toast.

mjb.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Aug 15 14:48:06 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:48:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W93BBF2FB305E5A3817459CCB60@phx.gbl>

That's three quick votes for the power supply, but it has about 50 wires
coming out of it, so how does one go about testing it?


> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:44:14 -0600
> From: mark at bradakis.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
>
> You could try removing the ethernet card and then seeing what happens,
> but offhand I'd say your power supply is toast.
>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Wed Aug 15 14:56:31 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:56:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6cSJ9W-J4BuXZgecFTaLm8UCFw-C7+h9QjFS_NJVj2Kpg@mail.gmail.com>

I'd suggest looking on YouTube for PC troubleshooting videos. Maybe
Tomshardware, and Newegg, too. Lots of info out there. Lots of questions,
the first of which is do you get any indication of power at all? Doesn't
sound like it. If the PSU has an easily accessible fuse, check it first
thing.

I lost the PSU and the MoBo in a Dell desktop when a power transformer a
couple of blocks from our place blew. Fortunately nothing else was effected
and the PC was under (parts) warranty, but I went through three PSUs and 2
MoBos before I got it running again.

Hopefully you'll have better luck,
Ron

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:

> You could try removing the ethernet card and then seeing what happens,
> but offhand I'd say your power supply is toast.
>
> mjb.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com>

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Aug 15 15:21:39 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:21:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6cSJ9W-J4BuXZgecFTaLm8UCFw-C7+h9QjFS_NJVj2Kpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>,
	<CAMHhs6cSJ9W-J4BuXZgecFTaLm8UCFw-C7+h9QjFS_NJVj2Kpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W58F748266A7F4C341E9FFECCB60@phx.gbl>

You are correct that there is no indication of any power at all.  I can not
find any fuses anywhere.  The only component I have moved so far is the power
supply, but that gives me a pretty good look at the motherboard.

I will do some googling later this evening and report back as appropriate.


> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:56:31 -0500
> From: ronnie.day at gmail.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
>
> I'd suggest looking on YouTube for PC troubleshooting videos. Maybe
> Tomshardware, and Newegg, too. Lots of info out there. Lots of questions,
> the first of which is do you get any indication of power at all? Doesn't
> sound like it. If the PSU has an easily accessible fuse, check it first
> thing.
>
> I lost the PSU and the MoBo in a Dell desktop when a power transformer a
> couple of blocks from our place blew. Fortunately nothing else was effected
> and the PC was under (parts) warranty, but I went through three PSUs and 2
> MoBos before I got it running again.
>
> Hopefully you'll have better luck,
> Ron
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:
>
> > You could try removing the ethernet card and then seeing what happens,
> > but offhand I'd say your power supply is toast.
> >
> > mjb.
> >
> > ______________________________**_________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate:
http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> > Suggested annual donation $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> >
options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/option
s/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Aug 15 15:37:17 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:37:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W58F748266A7F4C341E9FFECCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
	<CAMHhs6cSJ9W-J4BuXZgecFTaLm8UCFw-C7+h9QjFS_NJVj2Kpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-W58F748266A7F4C341E9FFECCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9UmfgJjRqigMXM37Po3kg82fPPnAYwLaY8vqSgvRz-1Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Use you nose!  If something blew out, you might be able to smell it.

Doug

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> You are correct that there is no indication of any power at all.  I can not
> find any fuses anywhere.  The only component I have moved so far is the
> power
> supply, but that gives me a pretty good look at the motherboard.
>
> I will do some googling later this evening and report back as appropriate.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Aug 15 15:43:10 2012
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:43:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 15, 2012, at 4:25 PM, Jim Stone wrote:

> I have just returned from a two week vacation and my home PC is completely
> dead.  Even though it is plugged into a surge protector, I unplugged it and
my
> router before I left town, although I did leave the ethernet cable in.
> Everything else in the house seems to be working fine, with the exception of
a
> CO2 dector, which perhaps coincidently now shows ERR on the display.
Still,
> that seems like only a concidence, as the only connection between the PC
and
> the outside world was the ethernet cord.  However, I do know there was at
> least one severe thunderstorm warning for the area while I was gone.

You confirmed that the outlet is working? That got me for an hour after a
storm tripped the GFCI in the garage.

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Aug 15 15:46:17 2012
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:46:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W58F748266A7F4C341E9FFECCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
	<CAMHhs6cSJ9W-J4BuXZgecFTaLm8UCFw-C7+h9QjFS_NJVj2Kpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-W58F748266A7F4C341E9FFECCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0M8T004O2GHRSQO0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Make sure you actually have power where you're plugging it in!  Power 
strips have breakers that can pop in a storm.  Even the house circuit 
breaker can trip.  Even more likely if it's a GFCI.  Make sure a lamp 
or something works where you're plugging the computer in.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 05:21 PM 8/15/2012, Jim Stone wrote:
>You are correct that there is no indication of any power at all.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Aug 15 15:51:02 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:51:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>

Yep.  Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the supply.
Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I have
found is through HP at $80.  The computer is an Pavilion s500.  I also will
check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.


> From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:43:10 -0400
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
>
> On Aug 15, 2012, at 4:25 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
>
> > I have just returned from a two week vacation and my home PC is
completely
> > dead. Even though it is plugged into a surge protector, I unplugged it
and
> my
> > router before I left town, although I did leave the ethernet cable in.
> > Everything else in the house seems to be working fine, with the exception
of
> a
> > CO2 dector, which perhaps coincidently now shows ERR on the display.
> Still,
> > that seems like only a concidence, as the only connection between the PC
> and
> > the outside world was the ethernet cord. However, I do know there was at
> > least one severe thunderstorm warning for the area while I was gone.
>
> You confirmed that the outlet is working? That got me for an hour after a
> storm tripped the GFCI in the garage.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 15 15:55:44 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <1345067744.59155.YahooMailNeo@web140002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

And the power cord is 'properly' seated in the back of the power supply?



>________________________________
> From: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
>To: shop-talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 5:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
> 
>(snip)
>
>You confirmed that the outlet is working? That got me for an hour after a
>storm tripped the GFCI in the garage.
>_______________________________________________

From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Aug 15 16:13:03 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:13:03 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>

Jim Stone wrote:
> Yep.  Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the supply.
> Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I have
> found is through HP at $80.  The computer is an Pavilion s500.  I also will
> check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.
>
>

One thing to watch for when getting a brand new power supply for an older
computer is getting enough matching connectors.  New power supplies come
with some number of the thin, flat SATA connectors, not the old 4 prong IDE
types.

mjb.

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Wed Aug 15 16:39:21 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:39:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <502C2519.9030906@comcast.net>

On 8/15/2012 6:13 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
> Jim Stone wrote:
>> Yep.  Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the 
>> supply.
>> Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I 
>> have
>> found is through HP at $80.  The computer is an Pavilion s500. I also 
>> will
>> check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.
>>
>>
>
> One thing to watch for when getting a brand new power supply for an older
> computer is getting enough matching connectors.  New power supplies come
> with some number of the thin, flat SATA connectors, not the old 4 
> prong IDE
> types.

More important is the mother board connector.  They've changed over 
time.  Also $80 is kind of high for PSU, try NewEgg.com.


>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Wed Aug 15 16:39:39 2012
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:39:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP9zGXuwLQ2XO_Am-OykawPrYr0JLk-ymfVm5VmSXJP-xA@mail.gmail.com>

Jim-

Here is another supplier of power supplies that purport to be
compatible with that system, if it does turn out to be a bad/damaged
supply.

http://www.911forpcs.com/atx-1523f.html

If you have another PC in the house and you want to check the hard
drive (and perhaps copy data from it to another system) you could pull
the drive from the dead system and either drop it into a USB IDE drive
case (available at your local computer supply place, Best Buy,
Microcenter, Amazon, Newegg or elsewhere). I'm assuming, based on the
power supply info above, that this system is old enough that it has a
PATA(IDE) drive, rather than one of the newer SATA drives.

It very well may be that the power supply is just fine - and that the
trouble is your motherboard. Considering that you had no power cord
connected to the power supply while you were gone (but the ethernet
was connected), I would first suspect the motherboard, which, in this
case, would have me suggest that you start looking for a replacement
system. Lightning can get into the most amazing places!

-Peter


On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> Yep.  Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the supply.
> Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I have
> found is through HP at $80.  The computer is an Pavilion s500.  I also will
> check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug 15 18:20:12 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (tr3driver at ca.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:20:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <502C09AE.2080506@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20120816002012.T0EH3.120305.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

> As for diagnosing, I'd start with power supply.  Disconnect and test 
> with a volt meter.

Unfortunately, many if not all modern PC power supplies will not work that way.  They have to see a load on the main outputs, and have a control jumper installed to tell them to turn on the main outputs.

Also unfortunately, that makes it more likely that your problem is the mobo not passing the power signal to the PS.

It is possible to test the power supply, with the appropriate loads and so on, but most ordinary mortals just replace it.

-- Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Aug 15 19:38:06 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:38:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>, ,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W5534F844918E27F7556BCCCCB50@phx.gbl>

While I have been known to overlook very simple things and make my job far
harder, in this case I am certain the power source is good, the cord is good
and the connection to the computer is good.  That doesn't mean I am not
overlooking something very simple, just that those particular simple things
have been covered.  I'll see what I can learn tomorrow about replacement power
supplies.

BTW: one thing I have learned is that CO2 dectors are deliberately designed to
fail 7 years after first plugged in.  I don't remember exactly when I bought
mine, but 7 years seems about right, so it appears that it is just a
coincidence that both failed while I was gone.


> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:13:03 -0600
> From: mark at bradakis.com
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
>
> Jim Stone wrote:
> > Yep. Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the supply.
> > Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I have
> > found is through HP at $80. The computer is an Pavilion s500. I also will
> > check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.
> >
> >
>
> One thing to watch for when getting a brand new power supply for an older
> computer is getting enough matching connectors. New power supplies come
> with some number of the thin, flat SATA connectors, not the old 4 prong IDE
> types.
>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Aug 15 19:55:24 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:55:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W5534F844918E27F7556BCCCCB50@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>
	<COL115-W5534F844918E27F7556BCCCCB50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FCD6E50E-6D77-4FEC-A233-CB3A109D4885@gmail.com>

On Aug 15, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> While I have been known to overlook very simple things and make my job far
> harder, in this case I am certain the power source is good, the cord is
good
> and the connection to the computer is good.  That doesn't mean I am not
> overlooking something very simple, just that those particular simple things
> have been covered.  I'll see what I can learn tomorrow about replacement
power
> supplies.

One simple thing to check is for a physical witch on the power supply.

Modern power supplies fai a lot, but the usual failure is that they don't
output power in spec. A failure while unplugged isn't common, and I suspect
something else died. If you've got an add on Ethernet card, pull it out.

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Wed Aug 15 20:14:10 2012
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:14:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <FCD6E50E-6D77-4FEC-A233-CB3A109D4885@gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>
	<COL115-W5534F844918E27F7556BCCCCB50@phx.gbl>
	<FCD6E50E-6D77-4FEC-A233-CB3A109D4885@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <037CB077-45BA-44B8-B04A-372C788D9E20@mac.com>

On Aug 15, 2012, at 6:55 PM, David Scheidt wrote:

> One simple thing to check is for a physical witch on the power supply.

Yes, because without the witch, there isn't any magic left in the power supply :-)

-Darrell

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Wed Aug 15 20:18:44 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:18:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ultrasonic leak detector?
Message-ID: <502C5884.8040707@frontier.com>

I recently moved my compressor out of the shop and into the tractor shed 
and ran about 30 feet of piping to connect to the new location.  All the 
piping is 3/4" copper, sweated with soft solder. I now have a slow leak 
somewhere, enough that the compressor will cycle every half hour or so.  
I'm pretty sure the leak is in the new piping because it didn't leak 
down that fast before.  Right now I have a valve where the line comes 
through the wall from the shed to the shop and I keep that closed most 
of the time, but I would like to find the leak.  I can't hear anything, 
but that isn't surprising because my hearing is nothing like it used to 
be.  I'd rather not climb around on a ten foot step ladder with a bottle 
of soap solution, either.  So, the question is, does anyone know if you 
can rent ultrasonic leak detectors?  The cheapest ones to buy are around 
$300, and I'd rather not buy one for a one-time job, since I don't do 
HVAC work.

Thanks

From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Aug 15 20:21:44 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:21:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <037CB077-45BA-44B8-B04A-372C788D9E20@mac.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C1EEF.4030204@bradakis.com>
	<COL115-W5534F844918E27F7556BCCCCB50@phx.gbl>
	<FCD6E50E-6D77-4FEC-A233-CB3A109D4885@gmail.com>
	<037CB077-45BA-44B8-B04A-372C788D9E20@mac.com>
Message-ID: <502C5938.9030605@bradakis.com>

>> One simple thing to check is for a physical witch on the power supply.
>

Technology moves on.  Get a power supply with a metaphysical witch.
It will sweep all the others into the dumpster.

mjb.

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Wed Aug 15 20:46:56 2012
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:46:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ultrasonic leak detector?
In-Reply-To: <502C5884.8040707@frontier.com>
References: <502C5884.8040707@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20120815224546.116a21f0@pop.nycap.rr.com>

maybe try  a smoke generator like they used for vacuum leaks on cars?


Skip

At 10:18 PM 8/15/2012, you wrote:
>I recently moved my compressor out of the shop and into the tractor shed 
>and ran about 30 feet of piping to connect to the new location.  All the 
>piping is 3/4" copper, sweated with soft solder. I now have a slow leak 
>somewhere, enough that the compressor will cycle every half hour or so.
>I'm pretty sure the leak is in the new piping because it didn't leak down 
>that fast before.  Right now I have a valve where the line comes through 
>the wall from the shed to the shop and I keep that closed most of the 
>time, but I would like to find the leak.  I can't hear anything, but that 
>isn't surprising because my hearing is nothing like it used to be.  I'd 
>rather not climb around on a ten foot step ladder with a bottle of soap 
>solution, either.  So, the question is, does anyone know if you can rent 
>ultrasonic leak detectors?  The cheapest ones to buy are around $300, and 
>I'd rather not buy one for a one-time job, since I don't do HVAC work.
>
>Thanks
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From roadster at astound.net  Wed Aug 15 20:52:24 2012
From: roadster at astound.net (Fred Katz)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:52:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B041C353-618B-4BED-A6EB-FC9BCF2E524F@astound.net>

My neighbor had the same problem, brought his PC to me to troubleshoot. He
also had his PC plugged into a surge protector, but the PC died. Power supply
seemed dead, I recommended he buy another. Then he read somewhere about a fix.
Plug the power cord in with electricity going to the PC. Then pull the power
supply cable from the motherboard socket, wait a few seconds and reconnect the
power supply cable to the motherboard. I told him that is supposedly dangerous
and is exactly what you're not supposed to do. We did it, and his PC came back
to life. Happened  to him again a few weeks later, and the "fix" worked again.
However, he did take my advice and bought a new power supply.

Fred -

On Aug 15, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> <snip>

From racertod at racertodd.com  Wed Aug 15 22:37:02 2012
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 21:37:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W93BBF2FB305E5A3817459CCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
	<COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502C0A1E.3020900@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20120815212749.00beb038@mail.avvanta.com>

Jim wrote:

>That's three quick votes for the power supply, but it has about 50 wires
>coming out of it, so how does one go about testing it?

         With a voltmeter and list of which wires carry which voltages you 
can test the power supply's output.  You have to short the PS-ON wire so 
the PSU will power up first.  Pinout diagram for the standard 20 and 24 pin 
connectors is here:
http://www.smpspowersupply.com/connectors-pinouts.html

         The easier way is to go to eBay and pickup a PSU tester like this:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-20-24-Pin-PSU-ATX-HD-SATA-Power-Supply-Tester-/320908749569?pt=US_Computer_Power_Supply_Testers&hash=item4ab7a6eb01>

         You plug the 20 or 24-pin motherboard connector into it and it 
will show if all the various voltages are present or not.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 275,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       358,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Thu Aug 16 05:56:17 2012
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian McFetridge)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 07:56:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP89hP7OwsovBg+0rvB1VSMynfL3Fq6rBHm=Stt1oPqxqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1a61fbc5.28440b.139251a7d0a.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAJ8HLP89hP7OwsovBg+0rvB1VSMynfL3Fq6rBHm=Stt1oPqxqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFnfnRVMc7Z5ywOU_Fx9VSm4Xf47Tpf4rEs7DozNTJcOnh=dFA@mail.gmail.com>

Make sure to investigate the Interlockkit with your local inspector if you
will be pulling a permit or otherwise having an inspecting checking your
installation.  I installed one ealier this year and went through a bit of
hassle passing my final inspection.  Email from earlier this year:

Just to close this saga out...we passed the re-inspection.

I showed the inspector the cut sheet for the interlock (downloaded from
http://www.interlockkit.com/)  and the OSHA ruling.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER&p_id=22157

The inspector accepted my interpretation that the part is still certified.
Wyle was certified when the part was tested in 2009 and according to the
OSHA site "the Agency no longer accepts product certifications made by Wyle
on or after this effective date." (24-Aug-2011), so the part still holds a
valid UL listing.

If they make an interlock kit for a new panel, then they will need to use a
currently certified testing lab to get the UL listing for it.

To me and others it is a matter of common sense that mechanical interlock
either works or does not work, but it's obviously possible for inspectors
to stick to the letter of the code.

- Ian

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Peter Murray <peterwmurray at gmail.com>wrote:

> I am looking at one of these for my place:
>
> http://www.interlockkit.com/index.htm
>
> Relatively cheap, and meets code requirements.
>
> -Peter
> On Aug 14, 2012 6:15 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>
> > Just tell him to back feed the panel and make sure he shuts off the main
> > before starting the genny.
> >
> > This way, he only needs one heavy cable (and it can be as short as
> > possible) and he has his whole house wired properly.
> >
> > Note:  This is against every code I know, but it is safe if you are
> > mindful of what you are doing.
> >
> > Eric P
> > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> > Waldo Emerson
> >
> >
> >
> > Heavy duty extension cords are pretty pricey. I had my compressor (240
> > hard wired) connected to the panel in my garage and it cost under $100.
> > I am guessing he will pay close to that for a heavy duty cord....
> >
> > 50 ft 10 gauge over $85....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.gemplers.com/product/181891/50-ft-10-gauge-Heavy-duty-Extension-Cables?sku=181891&src=25SEPLA&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=181891&gclid=CNrr9uqO57ECFcVAMgod9l4A9Q
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Ian McFetridge wrote:
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/forumsUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug 16 07:03:30 2012
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:03:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Extension cord gauge per load and distance
In-Reply-To: <CAFnfnRVMc7Z5ywOU_Fx9VSm4Xf47Tpf4rEs7DozNTJcOnh=dFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1a61fbc5.28440b.139251a7d0a.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<OFA63C556E.694DBF9D-ON85257A5A.0079536A-85257A5A.007A562A@mail.megageek.com>
	<CAJ8HLP89hP7OwsovBg+0rvB1VSMynfL3Fq6rBHm=Stt1oPqxqg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFnfnRVMc7Z5ywOU_Fx9VSm4Xf47Tpf4rEs7DozNTJcOnh=dFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOtbU9WrEme1b8xFp0tuLDarcgh4nJ4wLCDPDTs5-dJ9bZtVkw@mail.gmail.com>

I think the approval  sticking point on these interlock kits was that they
are defeated if you remove the front panel of the box.

Doug

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Ian McFetridge
<shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>wrote:

> Make sure to investigate the Interlockkit with your local inspector if you
> will be pulling a permit or otherwise having an inspecting checking your
> installation.  I installed one ealier this year and went through a bit of
> hassle passing my final inspection.  Email from earlier this year:
>
> Just to close this saga out...we passed the re-inspection.
>
> I showed the inspector the cut sheet for the interlock (downloaded from
> http://www.interlockkit.com/)  and the OSHA ruling.
>
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER&p_id=22157
>
> The inspector accepted my interpretation that the part is still certified.
> Wyle was certified when the part was tested in 2009 and according to the
> OSHA site "the Agency no longer accepts product certifications made by Wyle
> on or after this effective date." (24-Aug-2011), so the part still holds a
> valid UL listing.
>
> If they make an interlock kit for a new panel, then they will need to use a
> currently certified testing lab to get the UL listing for it.
>
> To me and others it is a matter of common sense that mechanical interlock
> either works or does not work, but it's obviously possible for inspectors
> to stick to the letter of the code.
>
> - Ian

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Aug 16 07:47:21 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:47:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>

Corsair is my choice in power supplies these days. There's a basic unit, 
a CX430 IIRC on newegg.com for like $40 that is my standard replacement. 
(Yeah, I do this for a living)

-wayne

On 8/15/2012 5:51 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> Yep.  Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the supply.
> Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I have
> found is through HP at $80.  The computer is an Pavilion s500.  I also will
> check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.
>
>
>> From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
>> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:43:10 -0400
>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Aug 16 21:01:48 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:01:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>, ,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>

Well, I have more information, but don't think it is good.  I didn't want to
wait a week to get the cheap tester from eBay and picked one up today at a
computer supply store.  Here is the one I got:
http://thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?S=1405&ID=1545#Tab0.  It comes with no
information or instructions, other than a sticker on the back saying to first
plug in the 20/24 pin connector.  I pulled that from the motherboard and
plugged it into the tester.  I then plugged the power supply in and it
instantly came to life, or at least the fan started spinning.  The tester
chirped and all of the lights except for the -5V one came on.  I also unpluged
one of the 4-pin connectors and it lit up the proper +5V light.  I unplugged
the SATA power connector and tried to plug that into the tester, but for some
reason couldn't get it to connect.  Still, I would guess that the power supply
is not my problem; the motherboard is.

Is that correct, and if so, how big a deal is it to replace the board?  It
doesn't look like it would be that difficult, but I am a complete neophyte at
this, so....

As always, thanks in advance.

Jim

> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:47:21 -0400
> From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
>
> Corsair is my choice in power supplies these days. There's a basic unit,
> a CX430 IIRC on newegg.com for like $40 that is my standard replacement.
> (Yeah, I do this for a living)
>
> -wayne
>
> On 8/15/2012 5:51 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> > Yep.  Also confirmed that the power cord is delivering 120v to the
supply.
> > Been researching new power supplies. So far, the only direct match I have
> > found is through HP at $80.  The computer is an Pavilion s500.  I also
will
> > check with a computer supply house near here tomorrow.
> >
> >
> >> From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> >> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:43:10 -0400
> >> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 21:27:59 2012
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 23:27:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>

Jim-

How old is the machine? Might it still be under warranty?

You should be able to search around and find a replacement board that
is specific to this machine, but it will likely be proprietary.

What exact model of HP Pavilion S500 is this?

-Peter

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> Well, I have more information, but don't think it is good.  I didn't want to
> wait a week to get the cheap tester from eBay and picked one up today at a
> computer supply store.  Here is the one I got:
> http://thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?S=1405&ID=1545#Tab0.  It comes with no
> information or instructions, other than a sticker on the back saying to first
> plug in the 20/24 pin connector.  I pulled that from the motherboard and
> plugged it into the tester.  I then plugged the power supply in and it
> instantly came to life, or at least the fan started spinning.  The tester
> chirped and all of the lights except for the -5V one came on.  I also unpluged
> one of the 4-pin connectors and it lit up the proper +5V light.  I unplugged
> the SATA power connector and tried to plug that into the tester, but for some
> reason couldn't get it to connect.  Still, I would guess that the power supply
> is not my problem; the motherboard is.
>
> Is that correct, and if so, how big a deal is it to replace the board?  It
> doesn't look like it would be that difficult, but I am a complete neophyte at
> this, so....
>
> As always, thanks in advance.
>
> Jim

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Aug 17 00:05:58 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:05:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>, ,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <502DDF46.7070009@xxiii.com>

I have the identical Thermaltake tester, and it seems to work well. I 
use it in conjunction with the trusty Fluke 117 to make sure things are 
good.

The negative 5 volt line is OK. Those were deprecated some years ago, 
and are usually not on newer power supplies. If you want all the gory 
details, punch up ATX on wikipedia. It sounds like your PSU is OK. Which 
sucks, because that would be the easy fix.

If you've never installed or swapped a mobo, it can be a little hairy. 
You have to properly configure all the BIOS settings, and lay down the 
heat sink grease on the CPU properly, and not zap anything with static. 
Assuming you're running Windoze? It will freak out if you put in a 
different mobo. Easiest fix would be to try to find an identical board 
on Ebay. Or, if your PC is on the older side, might just be time to 
upgrade. Current tech like DDR3 memory is dirt cheap, while stuff for 
older hardware is NOT.

My current work & home standard and favorite machine, though it's 
getting elderly at this point, is a Dell Precision 390. They were high 
end engineering workstations 5 or 6 years ago, with a Core 2 Duo CPU. I 
don't do video games or CAD/CAM, so they're plenty fast for me. You can 
score them on Ebay, sometimes for under $200. I do custom builds too 
(VortexBox media server) and have -- crikey (?!) -- 5 PCs around at the 
home at the moment.

-Wayne

On 8/16/2012 11:01 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> Well, I have more information, but don't think it is good. I didn't want
> to wait a week to get the cheap tester from eBay and picked one up today
> at a computer supply store. Here is the one I got:
> http://thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?S=1405&ID=1545#Tab0. It comes
> with no information or instructions, other than a sticker on the back
> saying to first plug in the 20/24 pin connector. I pulled that from the
> motherboard and plugged it into the tester. I then plugged the power
> supply in and it instantly came to life, or at least the fan started
> spinning. The tester chirped and all of the lights except for the -5V
> one came on. I also unpluged one of the 4-pin connectors and it lit up
> the proper +5V light. I unplugged the SATA power connector and tried to
> plug that into the tester, but for some reason couldn't get it to
> connect. Still, I would guess that the power supply is not my problem;
> the motherboard is.
>
> Is that correct, and if so, how big a deal is it to replace the board?
> It doesn't look like it would be that difficult, but I am a complete
> neophyte at this, so....

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Aug 17 06:55:56 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:55:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
In-Reply-To: <502DDF46.7070009@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>, ,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>,
	<502DDF46.7070009@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W188FDAB895D980F4FF53DBCCB40@phx.gbl>

The current machine is about 3 years old, so any warranty is long gone.  About
all I use it for at home is email and web surfing, iTunes and occasionally to
edit work-documents using Open Office.  So, I don't need anything very
powerful.  I'll do a little searching for motherboards, but based on the cost
of a new board vs. a new PC, it sounds like my best bet might be to just buy a
new box and either swap my old hard drive over or turn it into an auxiliary
drive.

> Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:05:58 -0400
> From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> To: jandkstone99 at msn.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dead PC
>
> I have the identical Thermaltake tester, and it seems to work well. I
> use it in conjunction with the trusty Fluke 117 to make sure things are
> good.
>
> The negative 5 volt line is OK. Those were deprecated some years ago,
> and are usually not on newer power supplies. If you want all the gory
> details, punch up ATX on wikipedia. It sounds like your PSU is OK. Which
> sucks, because that would be the easy fix.
>
> If you've never installed or swapped a mobo, it can be a little hairy.
> You have to properly configure all the BIOS settings, and lay down the
> heat sink grease on the CPU properly, and not zap anything with static.
> Assuming you're running Windoze? It will freak out if you put in a
> different mobo. Easiest fix would be to try to find an identical board
> on Ebay. Or, if your PC is on the older side, might just be time to
> upgrade. Current tech like DDR3 memory is dirt cheap, while stuff for
> older hardware is NOT.
>
> My current work & home standard and favorite machine, though it's
> getting elderly at this point, is a Dell Precision 390. They were high
> end engineering workstations 5 or 6 years ago, with a Core 2 Duo CPU. I
> don't do video games or CAD/CAM, so they're plenty fast for me. You can
> score them on Ebay, sometimes for under $200. I do custom builds too
> (VortexBox media server) and have -- crikey (?!) -- 5 PCs around at the
> home at the moment.
>
> -Wayne
>
> On 8/16/2012 11:01 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> > Well, I have more information, but don't think it is good. I didn't want
> > to wait a week to get the cheap tester from eBay and picked one up today
> > at a computer supply store. Here is the one I got:
> > http://thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?S=1405&ID=1545#Tab0. It comes
> > with no information or instructions, other than a sticker on the back
> > saying to first plug in the 20/24 pin connector. I pulled that from the
> > motherboard and plugged it into the tester. I then plugged the power
> > supply in and it instantly came to life, or at least the fan started
> > spinning. The tester chirped and all of the lights except for the -5V
> > one came on. I also unpluged one of the 4-pin connectors and it lit up
> > the proper +5V light. I unplugged the SATA power connector and tried to
> > plug that into the tester, but for some reason couldn't get it to
> > connect. Still, I would guess that the power supply is not my problem;
> > the motherboard is.
> >
> > Is that correct, and if so, how big a deal is it to replace the board?
> > It doesn't look like it would be that difficult, but I am a complete
> > neophyte at this, so....

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Aug 19 12:11:31 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:11:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <2f165663.225827.139401524f6.Webtop.44@charter.net>

since electrickery is my most weak point I figure I should ask this 
really dumb question:

I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came 
with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this 
set up is a thicker gauge.

Is this ok?

Thanks!

tim

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Aug 19 12:25:10 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:25:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <20120819142510.500z22wpzo5c0gg4@webmail2.centurytel.net>

If you are asking is it OK to use the heavier gauge wire - yes. But the 
fuse should be sized to protect the weakest link - either the switch, 
horn or the 16 ga wire. 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

Quoting Tim <tputland at charter.net>:
> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came
> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this
> set up is a thicker gauge. 
>
> Is this ok?

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 12:37:01 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:37:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <2f165663.225827.139401524f6.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <2f165663.225827.139401524f6.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <256501cd7e39$9feb3540$0601a8c0@randall>

> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came 
> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this 
> set up is a thicker gauge.
> 
> Is this ok?

Not really.  The fusible link will not protect the wire.  Either use larger
wire or a smaller link.

-- Randall  

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Aug 19 12:56:52 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:56:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <6131b98e.225d72.139403eabd8.Webtop.44@charter.net>

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

The instructions say use a 20 amp fuse which is what I bought.


Now one more quick one....

There is two prong male connection coming off of part of the ignition 
swith...one to the wiper and one to an aftermarket fuel gauge.

Can I turn this into a three prong connector and add the horn power lead 
to this? I would rather not run a wire to the battery (like the 
instructions say since the engine bay is so clean right now).

Thanks again!!
tim


On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Tim wrote:

> since electrickery is my most weak point I figure I should ask this 
> really dumb question:
>
> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came 
> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this 
> set up is a thicker gauge.
>
> Is this ok?
>
> Thanks!
>
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 13:14:11 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:14:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <6131b98e.225d72.139403eabd8.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <6131b98e.225d72.139403eabd8.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <256901cd7e3e$d0f8c990$0601a8c0@randall>

> There is two prong male connection coming off of part of the ignition 
> swith...one to the wiper and one to an aftermarket fuel gauge.
> 
> Can I turn this into a three prong connector and add the horn 
> power lead 
> to this?

I would suggest not drawing horn power through the ignition contacts.  Look
for an "always hot" connection with heavy wire to it, like maybe the input
side of the ignition switch.

-- Randall  

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Aug 19 13:20:01 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:20:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <2f165663.225827.139401524f6.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <2f165663.225827.139401524f6.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50313C61.4010103@xxiii.com>

Not a dumb question at all. Neither of us bothered to look it up on the 
'net, but right off, I'd say 16 ga is too light. Wire gauge requirements 
are based on current, not voltage and I'd guess 12 or 14 ga would be 
appropriate. Low voltage systems are less efficient at transferring 
energy, and to drive the same power into a device at only 13-ish volts, 
you need proportionately more current and havier gauge wire than what 
you'd use in your home at 120V. That's why power company mains are 
cranked up to thousands or hundreds of thousands of volts for the long 
haul, then knocked down with a local transformer.

OTOH, you're presumably not gonna use it that often, and then only for a 
couple seconds at a time max, so you can probably get a way with the 
light gauge stuff. Wouldn't do it for a constant draw, like lights however.

-Wayne


On 8/19/2012 2:11 PM, Tim wrote:
> since electrickery is my most weak point I figure I should ask this
> really dumb question:
>
> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came
> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this
> set up is a thicker gauge.

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 13:36:30 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:36:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <2f165663.225827.139401524f6.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <2f165663.225827.139401524f6.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPEzE2M4vigQXdi=AwSKJtUPixz3kWx-857cA+m5jwDcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came
> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this
> set up is a thicker gauge.
>
> Is this ok?

An ordinary horn appears to draw about 5-6 Amps.  In my experience,
the physical size of the fusible link won't compare to the physical
size of the normal wiring.

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Aug 19 14:18:19 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:18:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <25f34469.2269c3.13940893ea7.Webtop.44@charter.net>

Thanks all.

The horn button that was suggested for use with this horn (by 
summitracing staffer) came with 16 ga wire so I have to assume that that 
light of a ga is ok.

For now, so I have a working horn, I powered this thing from the 
ignition switch area. The vehicle (a 71 gladiator) has been somewhat 
(read POORLY here) restored by a previous idiot :-O and has new wiring 
so I think I will be ok for until I can run power from a permanent 
source.

Now to tackle the missing vacuum bits for the environmentals.

Thanks again all!!
tim

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Wayne wrote:

> Not a dumb question at all. Neither of us bothered to look it up on 
> the 'net, but right off, I'd say 16 ga is too light. Wire gauge 
> requirements are based on current, not voltage and I'd guess 12 or 14 
> ga would be appropriate. Low voltage systems are less efficient at 
> transferring energy, and to drive the same power into a device at only 
> 13-ish volts, you need proportionately more current and havier gauge 
> wire than what you'd use in your home at 120V. That's why power 
> company mains are cranked up to thousands or hundreds of thousands of 
> volts for the long haul, then knocked down with a local transformer.
>
> OTOH, you're presumably not gonna use it that often, and then only for 
> a couple seconds at a time max, so you can probably get a way with the 
> light gauge stuff. Wouldn't do it for a constant draw, like lights 
> however.
>
> -Wayne
>
>
> On 8/19/2012 2:11 PM, Tim wrote:
>> since electrickery is my most weak point I figure I should ask this
>> really dumb question:
>>
>> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came
>> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this
>> set up is a thicker gauge.

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Aug 19 14:30:23 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:30:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <20120819163023.22yf6b024oys4wsc@webmail2.centurytel.net>

Clarify: I saw 'fuse link' and thought a length of wire with an in-line 
fuse holder (replaceble fuse). A 'fusible link' is a length of wire 
that is meant to melt & break the connection in the event of an 
overload. 

What you want (I assume) is an in-line fuse, not a fusible link. 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

> > I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came
> > with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this
> > set up is a thicker gauge. 
> >
> > Is this ok?
>
> Not really.  The fusible link will not protect the wire.  Either use larger
> wire or a smaller link. 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Aug 19 14:33:39 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:33:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <20120819163339.nxt24wra60w000kg@webmail2.centurytel.net>

True. Ideally you might want to power the horn with a relay - use the 
switch to control the relay. Short relatively large gauge wires deliver 
power to the relay & then to the horn. The light gauge (& likley 
longer) wires are used only to trigger the relay. 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

Quoting Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com>:
> Not a dumb question at all. Neither of us bothered to look it up on the
> 'net, but right off, I'd say 16 ga is too light. 

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Aug 19 14:39:44 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:39:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <8a1e76c.226c2c.139409cd8d5.Webtop.44@charter.net>

Yea, I have a 20 amp inline fuse. Sorry for the NooB confusion!
tim


On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:30 PM, ejrussell at mebtel.net wrote:

> Clarify: I saw 'fuse link' and thought a length of wire with an 
> in-line fuse holder (replaceble fuse). A 'fusible link' is a length of 
> wire that is meant to melt & break the connection in the event of an 
> overload. What you want (I assume) is an in-line fuse, not a fusible 
> link. Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
>
>>> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that 
>>> came
>>> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into 
>>> this
>>> set up is a thicker gauge.
>>> Is this ok?
>>
>> Not really.  The fusible link will not protect the wire.  Either use 
>> larger
>> wire or a smaller link.

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 15:30:37 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:30:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just bought a Dell 17 inch laptop and have been looking for DC power
supply/charger for it. The output of the AC supply is just over 19 volts DC
@ almost 7 amps. I realize I could use an inverter and just plug the AC
supply in to it, but that's a bulky kluge, IMO. Both the Accord and the
Suburban have good sized console bins that I could stick the circuitry in
and leave the output pigtail hanging out.

I've be doing some online research, but haven't found any straight forward
answers yet.

Ron

From jniolon at att.net  Sun Aug 19 16:29:52 2012
From: jniolon at att.net (John Niolon)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:29:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
References: <8a1e76c.226c2c.139409cd8d5.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <AD6C165491B147E7BFD7058229846ACB@john5043a2d406>

Tim,

this might work well for you...

http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/horn.jpg

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim" <tputland at charter.net>
To: <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
Cc: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wiring question


> Yea, I have a 20 amp inline fuse. Sorry for the NooB confusion!
> tim
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:30 PM, ejrussell at mebtel.net wrote:
>
>> Clarify: I saw 'fuse link' and thought a length of wire with an in-line 
>> fuse holder (replaceble fuse). A 'fusible link' is a length of wire that 
>> is meant to melt & break the connection in the event of an overload. What 
>> you want (I assume) is an in-line fuse, not a fusible link. Eric Russell
>> Mebane, NC
>>
>>>> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that came
>>>> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into this
>>>> set up is a thicker gauge.
>>>> Is this ok?
>>>
>>> Not really.  The fusible link will not protect the wire.  Either use 
>>> larger
>>> wire or a smaller link.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 16:42:20 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:42:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <AD6C165491B147E7BFD7058229846ACB@john5043a2d406>
References: <8a1e76c.226c2c.139409cd8d5.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<AD6C165491B147E7BFD7058229846ACB@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CNzfFfgAS9-VqidD38c5bw3t8tcyhnWdiQR0N+MkyRS8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 6:29 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net> wrote:
>
> this might work well for you...
>
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/horn.jpg

You will, of course, want a fuse between the battery and the relay...

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 16:48:26 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:48:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CNzfFfgAS9-VqidD38c5bw3t8tcyhnWdiQR0N+MkyRS8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a1e76c.226c2c.139409cd8d5.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<AD6C165491B147E7BFD7058229846ACB@john5043a2d406>
	<CAO8Q7CNzfFfgAS9-VqidD38c5bw3t8tcyhnWdiQR0N+MkyRS8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6f-hpcCg5r74+EvdeGz5e0wdDajGt0x1H41dK_w2kMndg@mail.gmail.com>

Wouldn't you want the horn button "hot" all of the time? I don't remember
ever seeing a switched horn circuit.

RD

On Sunday, August 19, 2012, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 6:29 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at att.net<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> >
> > this might work well for you...
> >
> > http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/horn.jpg
>
> You will, of course, want a fuse between the battery and the relay...
>
> Jeff Scarbrough
> Corrosion Acres, Ga.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <javascript:;>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Aug 19 16:52:16 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:52:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <305ea594.22814d.13941162d73.Webtop.44@charter.net>

What is the thought process behind the relay being close to hte horn? 
And how close does close need to be?

Thanks


On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 5:29 PM, John Niolon wrote:

> Tim,
>
> this might work well for you...
>
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/horn.jpg
>
> john
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim" <tputland at charter.net>
> To: <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
> Cc: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wiring question
>
>
>> Yea, I have a 20 amp inline fuse. Sorry for the NooB confusion!
>> tim
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:30 PM, ejrussell at mebtel.net wrote:
>>
>>> Clarify: I saw 'fuse link' and thought a length of wire with an 
>>> in-line fuse holder (replaceble fuse). A 'fusible link' is a length 
>>> of wire that is meant to melt & break the connection in the event of 
>>> an overload. What you want (I assume) is an in-line fuse, not a 
>>> fusible link. Eric Russell
>>> Mebane, NC
>>>
>>>>> I want to wire in an aftermarket horn on my Jeep. The wires that 
>>>>> came
>>>>> with the swith are 16 gauge. The Fuse link I bought to wire into 
>>>>> this
>>>>> set up is a thicker gauge.
>>>>> Is this ok?
>>>>
>>>> Not really.  The fusible link will not protect the wire.  Either 
>>>> use larger
>>>> wire or a smaller link.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Aug 19 16:53:07 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:53:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <97de43f.228164.1394116f6cd.Webtop.44@charter.net>

Yes, eventually. for now I just need one that works.


On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Ronnie Day wrote:

> Wouldn't you want the horn button "hot" all of the time? I don't 
> remember
> ever seeing a switched horn circuit.
>
> RD
>
> On Sunday, August 19, 2012, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 6:29 PM, John Niolon 
>> <jniolon at att.net<javascript:;>>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> this might work well for you...
>>>
>>> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/horn.jpg
>>
>> You will, of course, want a fuse between the battery and the relay...
>>
>> Jeff Scarbrough
>> Corrosion Acres, Ga.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <javascript:;>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Aug 19 17:03:59 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:03:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
Message-ID: <20120819190359.xu24b4m1d1uoo8o4@webmail2.centurytel.net>

1) Shorter wires do need to be as heavy a gauge as longer wires for the 
same current carrying capacity. 

B) As close as practical. A few feet of wire is fine. Ten feet or so 
would need a wire gauge increase. A hundred feet is right out!

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

> What is the thought process behind the relay being close to hte horn?
> And how close does close need to be?

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug 19 17:40:51 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:40:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <25f34469.2269c3.13940893ea7.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <25f34469.2269c3.13940893ea7.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <003f01cd7e64$11b70990$0601a8c0@randall>

> The horn button that was suggested for use with this horn (by 
> summitracing staffer) came with 16 ga wire so I have to 
> assume that that 
> light of a ga is ok.

Or they may have assumed that you would use a horn relay.  Practically all
modern cars do, and it's a very worthwhile modification to older cars.

-- Randall  

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 19:06:10 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:06:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
In-Reply-To: <004001cd7e65$a3cde9b0$0601a8c0@randall>
References: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<004001cd7e65$a3cde9b0$0601a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6d0Aistsb2P=kH3ikpBWP+b+Ajg_Jcpg6ndy=0bax+DPQ@mail.gmail.com>

They don't list my model, the XPS 17/L702x. The AC Supply is 130 watts. I
tried an Antec 90 watt AC supply and got a message saying it wasn't big
enough. At least I've found AC Supplies for considerably less than the $150
Dell gets, but I'd like to get by in cars without using an inverter. I will
if I can't come up with a DC setup. I've already got inverters for both
vehicles but they sure are bulky.

On Sunday, August 19, 2012, Randall wrote:

> This might do:
> http://goo.gl/tNmWw
>
> -- Randall
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <javascript:;>
> > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of
> Ronnie Day
> > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 2:31 PM
> > To: Shop Talk List
> > Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
> >
> > Just bought a Dell 17 inch laptop and have been looking for DC power
> > supply/charger for it. The output of the AC supply is just
> > over 19 volts DC
> > @ almost 7 amps. I realize I could use an inverter and just
> > plug the AC
> > supply in to it, but that's a bulky kluge, IMO. Both the
> > Accord and the
> > Suburban have good sized console bins that I could stick the
> > circuitry in
> > and leave the output pigtail hanging out.
> >
> > I've be doing some online research, but haven't found any
> > straight forward
> > answers yet.
> >
> > Ron
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net <javascript:;>
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tr3driver at ca.rr.com

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Aug 19 21:41:05 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:41:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>,
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>,
	<CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>

Well, based on what I have learned here and through my online research, I
don't think it will be worth the expense and effort to replace my motherboard.
However, I really don't want to spend much money on a new one right now, so I
am thinking about getting a used or refurbished one.  I'd like to keep it
under $200.  Ideally, I would like something at least as fast as what I
currently have (HP Pavilion 5150T, Intel Dual Core processor E5300, 4GB DR3 -
1066MHZ SDRAM, 640GB SATA HD).  Also ideally, I would like to be able to just
move my current hard drive over to the new PC and have two internal hard
drives.  (I know I can get a SATA case, but I did say "ideally".)  And, while
I am wishing, it would be nice to be able to move my memory cards over to the
new PC to increase it's power for free.  I would also like it to run Windows
7, although I could probably be talked out of that if necessary.  (I may be
wrong about this, but I don't think I can transfer my current copy over.  I
bought my HP right before Win7 was released, and it came with an automatic
upgrade once the system was out.  As I recall, there was something in the
license that said it couldn't be transferred to another machine.  But, I could
be wrong about that.)

So, my first question is: does anyone have any recommendations for a good,
reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any recommendations on
a specific PC?  Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
Precision 390's.  They seem to be at the upper end of my price range, but
something like this might work:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110935816819&fromMakeTrack
=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

Any thoughts on this one?
http://joy-systems.store.buy.com/p/dell-optiplex-gx620-sff-3-0ghz-2048mb-ram-
500gb-hdd-dvd-win-7-home/234733906.html?listingid=229951034

From nick at landform.co.uk  Mon Aug 20 02:50:27 2012
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:50:27 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
Message-ID: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>

Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering 
about using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of 
swinging an axe in close quarters.

Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and 
wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this 
type of job.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Nick Brearley

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 20 05:25:47 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:25:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] wiring question
In-Reply-To: <305ea594.22814d.13941162d73.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <305ea594.22814d.13941162d73.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50321EBB.2040502@xxiii.com>

On 8/19/2012 6:52 PM, Tim wrote:
> What is the thought process behind the relay being close to the horn?
> And how close does close need to be?

It's basically a remote control switch. It lets you run low voltage / 
low current wiring to a remote switch [eg: on your dashboard or steering 
column] of modest capacity, and switch a device of much higher from a 
distance. With large enough gauge wire, it doesn't have to be close, but 
generally, the idea is to minimize the heavy-gauge wiring distance.

If you wanna go on the cheap  -- I've been a Nissan guy for a long time. 
There is a very standard "blue relay" used for the last 20+ years. You 
can probably chop one and a socket out of about any scrap yard Nissan. 
Might be cheaper than the FLAPS. Who seem to be charging more & more for 
their crap parts every day. Kinda sad I can order Brembo BMW rotors from 
Amazon.com and pay shipping on 40 lbs of parts for less than I can score 
junk locally.

-Wayne

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Aug 20 05:39:27 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:39:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
Message-ID: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>

We've owned two dells. One new tower some years ago. It crapped out less 
than a month after the warranty expired**. I also bought a refurbed dell 
laptop off of evilbay for my oldest to use in college. This one turned 
out to be almost too slow to be usable.

**I have heard of this from more than just my experience.

Hating dell computers
tim


On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Jim Stone wrote:

> Well, based on what I have learned here and through my online 
> research, I
> don't think it will be worth the expense and effort to replace my 
> motherboard.
> However, I really don't want to spend much money on a new one right 
> now, so I
> am thinking about getting a used or refurbished one.  I'd like to keep 
> it
> under $200.  Ideally, I would like something at least as fast as what 
> I
> currently have (HP Pavilion 5150T, Intel Dual Core processor E5300, 
> 4GB DR3 -
> 1066MHZ SDRAM, 640GB SATA HD).  Also ideally, I would like to be able 
> to just
> move my current hard drive over to the new PC and have two internal 
> hard
> drives.  (I know I can get a SATA case, but I did say "ideally".) 
> And, while
> I am wishing, it would be nice to be able to move my memory cards over 
> to the
> new PC to increase it's power for free.  I would also like it to run 
> Windows
> 7, although I could probably be talked out of that if necessary.  (I 
> may be
> wrong about this, but I don't think I can transfer my current copy 
> over.  I
> bought my HP right before Win7 was released, and it came with an 
> automatic
> upgrade once the system was out.  As I recall, there was something in 
> the
> license that said it couldn't be transferred to another machine.  But, 
> I could
> be wrong about that.)
>
> So, my first question is: does anyone have any recommendations for a 
> good,
> reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any 
> recommendations on
> a specific PC?  Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
> Precision 390's.  They seem to be at the upper end of my price range, 
> but
> something like this might work:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110935816819&fromMakeTrack
> =true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en
>
> Any thoughts on this one?
> 
> http://joy-systems.store.buy.com/p/dell-optiplex-gx620-sff-3-0ghz-2048mb-ram-
> 500gb-hdd-dvd-win-7-home/234733906.html?listingid=229951034
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 05:56:59 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:56:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>
	<CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMPoA-BxqSJS1HdXhO5VR=4ZEibEo1vDKi4Uqx0+LeF+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> So, my first question is: does anyone have any recommendations for a good,
> reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?

Tiger Direct http://www.tigerdirect.com/  (CompUSA is the same company
 http://www.compusa.com/  )

Newegg   http://www.newegg.com/

You can click on Desktops, then look in your price range.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/guidedSearch.asp?CatId=6&sel=Price%3BPrice4

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100019096%204017&IsNodeId=1&name=%24100%20-%20%24200

FWIW, I've had dozens of Dell computers, and haven't had any more
trouble with them than with any other brand...

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 20 06:22:01 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:22:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>,
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>,
	<CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <50322BE9.5020508@xxiii.com>

Hey Jim,
I'm still a Windoze XP guy. Yeah, it's 11 years old, but it's fast, does 
everything I need, and I have a legit license for it on the dozen or so 
machines I take care of. Don't know anyone that likes Vista. I've used 7 
a little bit, and didn't see any reason to "upgrade". Mostly just frilly 
graphics, and when I finally found what I was looking for, it was the 
same identical friggin' dialogue box from XP. Just hidden much better.

Anyway [rant off] from what I know of windows, any hardware change like 
a system board is gonna' make it refuse to boot. The Dell I recommended, 
much as I like them, is getting old at this point and takes DDR2 memory, 
which is a bunch more expensive & incompatible with  DDR3. It sounds 
like you have an OEM licensed version of windows, so yes -- it is tied 
to the system, and you can't legally transfer it to another box. Even if 
you wanted to, it will probably tell you it's not on the HP it was sold 
for, and refuse to install.

If you're happy with what you had, I'd try to score an identical mobo' 
or system on Ebay and drop it in. Otherwise, buy a case & board from 
newegg.com and build one. I'd recommend ASUS, Gateway, or MSI in that 
order for boards. ASUS is somewhat pricey, but they've been the OEM 
supplier to HP, IBM, and Compaq for the last couple decades. Top notch.

Shoot - your HP probably has the video integrated on the board. There's 
an NVidia 8400 series board you can get for about $35 that's my fave. 
It's like the slowest chipset on the market today, but by being slow 
it's low-power; you can get a nice quiet fan-less board that's fast 
enough for any general use. Unless you're into video games or cad/cam, 
no sense running up your electric bill and listening to a fan shriek.

-w

On 8/19/2012 11:41 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> Well, based on what I have learned here and through my online research, I
> don't think it will be worth the expense and effort to replace my motherboard.
> However, I really don't want to spend much money on a new one right now, so I
> am thinking about getting a used or refurbished one.  I'd like to keep it
> under $200.  Ideally, I would like something at least as fast as what I
> currently have (HP Pavilion 5150T, Intel Dual Core processor E5300, 4GB DR3 -
> 1066MHZ SDRAM, 640GB SATA HD).  Also ideally, I would like to be able to just
> move my current hard drive over to the new PC and have two internal hard
> drives.  (I know I can get a SATA case, but I did say "ideally".)  And, while
> I am wishing, it would be nice to be able to move my memory cards over to the
> new PC to increase it's power for free.  I would also like it to run Windows
> 7, although I could probably be talked out of that if necessary.  (I may be
> wrong about this, but I don't think I can transfer my current copy over.  I
> bought my HP right before Win7 was released, and it came with an automatic
> upgrade once the system was out.  As I recall, there was something in the
> license that said it couldn't be transferred to another machine.  But, I could
> be wrong about that.)
>
> So, my first question is: does anyone have any recommendations for a good,
> reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any recommendations on
> a specific PC?  Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
> Precision 390's.  They seem to be at the upper end of my price range, but
> something like this might work:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110935816819&fromMakeTrack
> =true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Aug 20 06:26:51 2012
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:26:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4B5116188F734D07AA9545B78B26EB15@HP62011>

I did not purchase this kit but I have used blades that are similar to "The 
Ax".

The issue I has hanging on to the Sawzall as the very aggressive teeth would 
grab on to what ever I was cutting and would shake the heck out of the 
person holding the Sawzall rather than cutting the wood. Assuming you can 
overcome that problem I don't see why it would not work.

Arvid

-----Original Message----- 
From: nick brearley
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:50 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades

Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering
about using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of
swinging an axe in close quarters.

Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and
wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this
type of job.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Nick Brearley
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Aug 20 06:45:09 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:45:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <COL115-W8AECBDE9E82D0E6270C7ECCB90@phx.gbl>

I have successfully used my reciprocating saw to prune trees and even cut down
some small ones with it.  The blade is more likely to bind when cutting live
wood, but it does work.  It helps to spray it with some kind of lubricating
spray when you aren't worried about killing the tree.  I have not tried the
demolition blades in your link, but am fairly certain you can buy blades made
for the task.

> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:50:27 +0100
> From: nick at landform.co.uk
> To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
>
> Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering
> about using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of
> swinging an axe in close quarters.
>
> Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and
> wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this
> type of job.
>
> Any suggestions gratefully received.
>
> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Aug 20 06:47:44 2012
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:47:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F5C68AA7-60A5-4706-87A0-47DCC579AD8F@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 20, 2012, at 4:50 AM, nick brearley wrote:

> Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering about
using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of swinging an
axe in close quarters.
>
> Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and
wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this type of
job.

I've used them for their intended purpose and they nicely cut through
anything. I probably used them for tree roots too, can't remember.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Aug 20 06:48:56 2012
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:48:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <50322BE9.5020508@xxiii.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>,
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>,
	<CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>,
	<50322BE9.5020508@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W31D925C3AF65B260B67573CCB90@phx.gbl>

Thanks everyone.  I have borrowed an adequate box, so I have a little time and
will keep researching.  As for building my own, I have considered this before;
maybe now is the time.  I will do a little research on the process before
making any decisions.

> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:22:01 -0400
> From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
>
> Hey Jim,
> I'm still a Windoze XP guy. Yeah, it's 11 years old, but it's fast, does
> everything I need, and I have a legit license for it on the dozen or so
> machines I take care of. Don't know anyone that likes Vista. I've used 7
> a little bit, and didn't see any reason to "upgrade". Mostly just frilly
> graphics, and when I finally found what I was looking for, it was the
> same identical friggin' dialogue box from XP. Just hidden much better.
>
> Anyway [rant off] from what I know of windows, any hardware change like
> a system board is gonna' make it refuse to boot. The Dell I recommended,
> much as I like them, is getting old at this point and takes DDR2 memory,
> which is a bunch more expensive & incompatible with  DDR3. It sounds
> like you have an OEM licensed version of windows, so yes -- it is tied
> to the system, and you can't legally transfer it to another box. Even if
> you wanted to, it will probably tell you it's not on the HP it was sold
> for, and refuse to install.
>
> If you're happy with what you had, I'd try to score an identical mobo'
> or system on Ebay and drop it in. Otherwise, buy a case & board from
> newegg.com and build one. I'd recommend ASUS, Gateway, or MSI in that
> order for boards. ASUS is somewhat pricey, but they've been the OEM
> supplier to HP, IBM, and Compaq for the last couple decades. Top notch.
>
> Shoot - your HP probably has the video integrated on the board. There's
> an NVidia 8400 series board you can get for about $35 that's my fave.
> It's like the slowest chipset on the market today, but by being slow
> it's low-power; you can get a nice quiet fan-less board that's fast
> enough for any general use. Unless you're into video games or cad/cam,
> no sense running up your electric bill and listening to a fan shriek.
>
> -w
>
> On 8/19/2012 11:41 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> > Well, based on what I have learned here and through my online research, I
> > don't think it will be worth the expense and effort to replace my
motherboard.
> > However, I really don't want to spend much money on a new one right now,
so I
> > am thinking about getting a used or refurbished one.  I'd like to keep it
> > under $200.  Ideally, I would like something at least as fast as what I
> > currently have (HP Pavilion 5150T, Intel Dual Core processor E5300, 4GB
DR3 -
> > 1066MHZ SDRAM, 640GB SATA HD).  Also ideally, I would like to be able to
just
> > move my current hard drive over to the new PC and have two internal hard
> > drives.  (I know I can get a SATA case, but I did say "ideally".)  And,
while
> > I am wishing, it would be nice to be able to move my memory cards over to
the
> > new PC to increase it's power for free.  I would also like it to run
Windows
> > 7, although I could probably be talked out of that if necessary.  (I may
be
> > wrong about this, but I don't think I can transfer my current copy over.
I
> > bought my HP right before Win7 was released, and it came with an
automatic
> > upgrade once the system was out.  As I recall, there was something in the
> > license that said it couldn't be transferred to another machine.  But, I
could
> > be wrong about that.)
> >
> > So, my first question is: does anyone have any recommendations for a
good,
> > reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any recommendations
on
> > a specific PC?  Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
> > Precision 390's.  They seem to be at the upper end of my price range, but
> > something like this might work:
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110935816819&fromMakeTrack
> > =true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Aug 20 07:07:06 2012
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:07:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <4B5116188F734D07AA9545B78B26EB15@HP62011>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<4B5116188F734D07AA9545B78B26EB15@HP62011>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120820090515.04dabbb0@cox.net>

At 08:26 AM 8/20/2012, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:

 >The issue I has hanging on to the Sawzall as the very aggressive teeth would
 >grab on to what ever I was cutting and would shake the heck out of 
the person
 >holding the Sawzall rather than cutting the wood. Assuming you can overcome
 >that problem I don't see why it would not work.

Arvid,

Yes you can.  I had to have a plumer replace the main sewage drain pipe at my
house.  He used a cordless saws-all to cut the root.  I'll send you 
some pictures
via private email.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 07:11:41 2012
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:11:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>

Our office uses refurb Dells exclusively.

If you go that route, I cannot recommend enough that you buy the highest 
level of warranty they'll sell you--the one where a tech comes to you 
that day to fix whatever breaks. Do NOT get the 'depot' warranty where 
you ship the computer back to Dell each time it breaks (and it 
will--often), unless you also have a spare machine to use for the two 
weeks it'll be gone each time.

Dealing with Dells and Dell itself about the computers has made a 
lifetime Lenovo customer out of me. And I was a huge believer in refurb 
equipment and the idea that all p.c.s are created equal, no matter the 
name on the front.

On 8/20/2012 7:39 AM, Tim wrote:
> We've owned two dells. One new tower some years ago. It crapped out 
> less than a month after the warranty expired**. I also bought a 
> refurbed dell laptop off of evilbay for my oldest to use in college. 
> This one turned out to be almost too slow to be usable.
>
> **I have heard of this from more than just my experience.
>
> Hating dell computers
> tim
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
>
>> Well, based on what I have learned here and through my online 
>> research, I
>> don't think it will be worth the expense and effort to replace my 
>> motherboard.
>> However, I really don't want to spend much money on a new one right 
>> now, so I
>> am thinking about getting a used or refurbished one.  I'd like to 
>> keep it
>> under $200.  Ideally, I would like something at least as fast as what I
>> currently have (HP Pavilion 5150T, Intel Dual Core processor E5300, 
>> 4GB DR3 -
>> 1066MHZ SDRAM, 640GB SATA HD).  Also ideally, I would like to be able 
>> to just
>> move my current hard drive over to the new PC and have two internal hard
>> drives.  (I know I can get a SATA case, but I did say "ideally".) 
>> And, while
>> I am wishing, it would be nice to be able to move my memory cards 
>> over to the
>> new PC to increase it's power for free.  I would also like it to run 
>> Windows
>> 7, although I could probably be talked out of that if necessary.  (I 
>> may be
>> wrong about this, but I don't think I can transfer my current copy 
>> over.  I
>> bought my HP right before Win7 was released, and it came with an 
>> automatic
>> upgrade once the system was out.  As I recall, there was something in 
>> the
>> license that said it couldn't be transferred to another machine.  
>> But, I could
>> be wrong about that.)
>>
>> So, my first question is: does anyone have any recommendations for a 
>> good,
>> reputable place to buy a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any 
>> recommendations on
>> a specific PC?  Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
>> Precision 390's.  They seem to be at the upper end of my price range, 
>> but
>> something like this might work:
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110935816819&fromMakeTrack 
>>
>> =true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en
>>
>> Any thoughts on this one?
>>
>> http://joy-systems.store.buy.com/p/dell-optiplex-gx620-sff-3-0ghz-2048mb-ram- 
>>
>> 500gb-hdd-dvd-win-7-home/234733906.html?listingid=229951034

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Aug 20 07:22:26 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:22:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004201cd7ed6$d81e54e0$885afea0$@ameritech.net>

I've cut lots of roots up to maybe 6", with my Sawzall, often just plunging
it down in the dirt.  I've had great luck with DeWalt blades.  Certain
Milwaukee blades (the Torch and Axe are among them) have worked well for me,
but many other Milwaukee blades have been short-lived, dulling or even
spitting teeth within a few minutes' use, and all Milwaukee blades are
expensive.

I've abused the heck out of DeWalt blades, binding them up and bending them
into pretzels while hot.  Let the blade cool a bit, roughly bend it back to
shape, and the blade seems to have a memory - with a few pushes this way and
that they're usually perfectly straight.  Cutting into dirt (especially our
very sandy soil) is gritty and tough on blades, but again the DeWalt blades
hold up longer than any others I've tried.

I do love my Milwaukee Sawzall, even if I'm not a fan of their blades.
Sometimes when we were cutting those roots the saw got too hot to hold even
with the rubber skin on the nose.  I'd give it half an hour to cool off and
go back at it.  That's a load of abuse for it, but it was the only way to do
the job (well, I also used an axe...).  Anyway, after 15 years of
mistreatment it still works good as new, though it looks pretty used.
Karl


-----Original Message-----
From: nick brearley
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades

Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering about
using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of swinging an
axe in close quarters.

Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and 
wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this type
of job.

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Aug 20 07:28:29 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:28:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
Message-ID: <50eed80b.2c79a6.13944386057.Webtop.43@charter.net>

That's great info on brand durability.
Thanks!
tim


On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Karl Vacek wrote:

> I've cut lots of roots up to maybe 6", with my Sawzall, often just 
> plunging
> it down in the dirt.  I've had great luck with DeWalt blades.  Certain
> Milwaukee blades (the Torch and Axe are among them) have worked well 
> for me,
> but many other Milwaukee blades have been short-lived, dulling or even
> spitting teeth within a few minutes' use, and all Milwaukee blades are
> expensive.
>
> I've abused the heck out of DeWalt blades, binding them up and bending 
> them
> into pretzels while hot.  Let the blade cool a bit, roughly bend it 
> back to
> shape, and the blade seems to have a memory - with a few pushes this 
> way and
> that they're usually perfectly straight.  Cutting into dirt 
> (especially our
> very sandy soil) is gritty and tough on blades, but again the DeWalt 
> blades
> hold up longer than any others I've tried.
>
> I do love my Milwaukee Sawzall, even if I'm not a fan of their blades.
> Sometimes when we were cutting those roots the saw got too hot to hold 
> even
> with the rubber skin on the nose.  I'd give it half an hour to cool 
> off and
> go back at it.  That's a load of abuse for it, but it was the only way 
> to do
> the job (well, I also used an axe...).  Anyway, after 15 years of
> mistreatment it still works good as new, though it looks pretty used.
> Karl
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nick brearley
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
>
> Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering 
> about
> using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of 
> swinging an
> axe in close quarters.
>
> Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and 
> wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this 
> type
> of job.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 20 07:47:38 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:47:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <50323FFA.5060205@xxiii.com>

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I have 7 of the Dell 390s at 
work, 2 at home, and another 2 I've bought and set up for family 
members, 2 lower-end Power Edge servers (SC430s), and a couple giga-bit 
switches.

The 390s were all bought used, after a lightning strike fried almost 
every piece of equipment in our office. I called up Dell tech support, 
got a live American person in short order, and got useful tech support, 
and in one case requested an operating system CD for an out of warranty 
machine, and they not only sent it, but it showed up the next day free 
of charge Fed-Ex.

I've heard some of the low-end Dell Vostro branded PCs have a bad 
reputation for reliability, but you get what'ca pay for. Or in the case 
of used ones a lot more. In my experience, they stand behind their high 
end products very well.
   -w

On 8/20/2012 7:39 AM, Tim wrote:
> We've owned two dells. One new tower some years ago. It crapped out less
> than a month after the warranty expired**. I also bought a refurbed dell
> laptop off of evilbay for my oldest to use in college. This one turned

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Aug 20 08:02:47 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:02:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <50324387.7060107@hornesystemstx.com>

Nick,

I have used these blades on lumber and they work fine. A few points though.

Since you are looking at a set of blades, are you going to need them in 
the future, or is this about all you plan on cutting? It will be cheaper 
to just buy a couple blades individually.

When I cut this kind of material I use a 8 " or 12" blade, something 
that is not in the set. You may not want to or not be able to  get the 
saw right against the root.

If you find that the saw gets stuck, you can always cut out a notch like 
you would with an axe to give you more clearance.

Last time I pulled a 12" stump we cut as many of the roots as possible, 
then called a wrecker to pull the stump out. It had a large tap root 
that we couldn't get to with any saw or axe.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake nick brearley, On 8/20/2012 3:50 AM:
> Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering 
> about using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of 
> swinging an axe in close quarters.
>
> Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and 
> wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this 
> type of job.
>
> Any suggestions gratefully received.
>
> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Aug 20 08:00:09 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:00:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6d0Aistsb2P=kH3ikpBWP+b+Ajg_Jcpg6ndy=0bax+DPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF2F2CA86E.3BA9DE92-ON85257A60.004D283E-85257A60.004D5BA1@mail.megageek.com>

Have you thought about hacking apart an old UPS?  Just supply the old 
battery terminals with the 12v dc from your vehicle and you'll have 120v 
AC out.
You need to make sure you have heavy enough gauge wire and that the UPS 
can supply the needed amps.  But it can work and old UPS with bad 
batteries can be had for free.  (Oh, you can sell the used batteries to 
most scrap yards.)

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Mon Aug 20 08:15:15 2012
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <4B5116188F734D07AA9545B78B26EB15@HP62011>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<4B5116188F734D07AA9545B78B26EB15@HP62011>
Message-ID: <1345472115.1540.YahooMailRC@web184502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Here's a set that Kmart currently has on sale for $9.99. 

http://www.kmart.com/craftsman-reciprocating-saw-blade-set-10-pk/p-005W840418110001P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1


Randy




-----Original Message----- From: nick brearley
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:50 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades

Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering
about using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of
swinging an axe in close quarters.

Looking on ebay I came across these  http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and
wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this
type of job.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Nick Brearley

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Aug 20 08:14:47 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:14:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50324657.3040306@hornesystemstx.com>

Ron,

Finding a 19.x power DC/DC converter won't be easy, but you can get 
close looking for a power supply that as plus and minus 12v (or 24v) and 
a 5v that is separate from the higher voltage output. Buck the 5v supply 
against the 24v and you will have something close to 19v. I haven't 
tried this with switching supplies, but it worked with analog supplies. \

Another way, though not as elegant, is to buy a 24v converter and add a 
regulator to the output to get the voltage you need.

Either of these will cost more than an inverter to plug you power supply 
into.

Peace,
Pat
Thusly spake Ronnie Day, On 8/19/2012 4:30 PM:
> Just bought a Dell 17 inch laptop and have been looking for DC power
> supply/charger for it. The output of the AC supply is just over 19 volts DC
> @ almost 7 amps. I realize I could use an inverter and just plug the AC
> supply in to it, but that's a bulky kluge, IMO. Both the Accord and the
> Suburban have good sized console bins that I could stick the circuitry in
> and leave the output pigtail hanging out.
>
> I've be doing some online research, but haven't found any straight forward
> answers yet.
>
> Ron
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Aug 20 08:08:50 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:08:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <OFBCDD0825.ED61346D-ON85257A60.004DB22A-85257A60.004E2719@mail.megageek.com>

I was in the computer industry for over 20 years.  I can say that Dell 
machines are the last thing I would EVER purchase.

Every company I worked for switch from Dells to HPs.  Dells are way 
overpriced and propretitary with NO support for customers (and only 
slightly better for companies.)

If you really want to go low priced, go to 
http://www.heartlandamerica.com/ and get a couple year old system for next 
to nothing.

If you need more than they offer, go to Walmart and get an eMachine (if 
they are still around) or HP. 


But whatever you do, and I can't stress this enough, STAY AWAY FROM 
DELL!!!!

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Aug 20 09:05:31 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:05:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>

Amen on both avoiding Dell and kudos to Lenovo.  Dell USED to be great, but
they've cheapened beyond acceptability in random areas, plus having moved
their support to India.  Unfortunately, HP cheapened their stuff beyond
acceptability long ago too, and like Dell, so much is proprietary.

I was given a year-old Lenovo ThinkPad a few years ago - it's a well-built
unit, and once I maxed out the RAM to 4 GB, put in a fast 500GB HDD, and
Win7 Pro, it still flies.  Unlike Wayne, I really like Win7, though I
skipped over Vista.  I've installed it on quite a few clients' older XP
machines, most with RAM upgrades (though as noted DDR2 is expensive) and a
new HDD for insurance, and even with minimal RAM (1-2 GB) it runs much
faster with none of XP's blue screens of death or "what the heck is it
doing" stalls.

Karl


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)

Our office uses refurb Dells exclusively.

If you go that route, I cannot recommend enough that you buy the highest
level of warranty they'll sell you--the one where a tech comes to you that
day to fix whatever breaks. Do NOT get the 'depot' warranty where you ship
the computer back to Dell each time it breaks (and it will--often), unless
you also have a spare machine to use for the two weeks it'll be gone each
time.

Dealing with Dells and Dell itself about the computers has made a lifetime
Lenovo customer out of me. And I was a huge believer in refurb equipment and
the idea that all p.c.s are created equal, no matter the name on the front.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Aug 20 09:12:27 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:12:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <1345472115.1540.YahooMailRC@web184502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<4B5116188F734D07AA9545B78B26EB15@HP62011>
	<1345472115.1540.YahooMailRC@web184502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007401cd7ee6$36395fc0$a2ac1f40$@ameritech.net>

Who makes Craftsman blades?  Cheap doesn't mean good deal, though expensive
doesn't guarantee good either.

And ditto on Pat's mention of a 12" blade for trees and roots - the only way
to cut that stuff with a Sawzall.  Those are the ones I've abused the most,
and the ones I've pretzeled and then had good results on straightening.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Rand E
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades

Here's a set that Kmart currently has on sale for $9.99. 
http://www.kmart.com/craftsman-reciprocating-saw-blade-set-10-pk/p-005W84041
8110001P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

From mpless at ucsd.edu  Mon Aug 20 10:23:10 2012
From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:23:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <OFBCDD0825.ED61346D-ON85257A60.004DB22A-85257A60.004E2719@mail.megageek.com>
	(from eric@megageek.com on Mon Aug 20 07:08:50 2012)
Message-ID: <1345479790.16818.0@servo.ucsd.edu>

As another data point, my department at a large SoCal University
purchases several hundred new PCs every year for use in computer
labs, and we've done this for years. We've purchased Dells for
at least the last 9 out of 10 years (last summer HP wanted our
business badly enough that they undercut Dell's pricing so we
went with HP). The HPs are nice machines, but the only real problem
we've ever had with the Dells was when the entire industry was
dealing with the "bad caps" plague. I recommend Dells and HPs to
friends and family members that live far enough away that I can't
help them out and they've never had any brand specific issues. Our
Dell PowerEdge serves have been outstanding; I've still got a rack
of PowerEdge 2650 servers that have been running 24/7 for 10 or 11
years now without so much as a cooling fan or power supply failure.
We've lost hard drives over the years, but everything else is still
going strong. I certainly agree that Lenovo is an excellent brand
to consider for Windows/Linux based portables.

For a number of years my department included an authorized Apple
repair facility (including warranty repair). Given their market
share I was shocked at the sheer number of Apple computers that came
into our building for repair. They might make nice looking hardware
and excellent user interfaces but I've never been impressed
with the actual build quality of Apple products.

YMMV...

--Marcus



On 08/20/2012 07:08:50 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I was in the computer industry for over 20 years.  I can say that Dell
> machines are the last thing I would EVER purchase.
>
> Every company I worked for switch from Dells to HPs.  Dells are way
> overpriced and propretitary with NO support for customers (and only
> slightly better for companies.)
>
> If you really want to go low priced, go to
> http://www.heartlandamerica.com/ and get a couple year old system for
> next
> to nothing.
>
> If you need more than they offer, go to Walmart and get an eMachine
> (if
> they are still around) or HP.
>
>
> But whatever you do, and I can't stress this enough, STAY AWAY FROM
> DELL!!!!
>
> Eric P
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a
> rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mpless at ucsd.edu

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 20 10:36:30 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:36:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CMPoA-BxqSJS1HdXhO5VR=4ZEibEo1vDKi4Uqx0+LeF+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>
	<CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
	<CAO8Q7CMPoA-BxqSJS1HdXhO5VR=4ZEibEo1vDKi4Uqx0+LeF+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5032678E.2080307@xxiii.com>

On 8/20/2012 7:56 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Jim Stone<jandkstone99 at msn.com>  wrote:
> Tiger Direct http://www.tigerdirect.com/  (CompUSA is the same company
>   http://www.compusa.com/  )

I suggest everyone stay WAY the hell away from Tiger Direct. They will 
spam your email mercilessly after an order. (unless you track down the 
corporate and personal email addresses of their IT guys and raise hell.) 
Their customer support sucks. Google it. There used to be a web site 
"tigerdirectsucks.org" with a few thousand complaints, but they have 
enough money and lawyers they appropriated the domain name for 
themselves and shut it down.

Hit NewEgg, Amazon or Provantage.

-wayne

From fortee9er at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 20 10:57:56 2012
From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:57:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage Building
Message-ID: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi Guys,
I want to determine the Square Footage requirement to store up to 25
cars of various sizes plus enough space for a workshop area with a two post
lift.
I know that the average car will occupy 250Sq.Ft. so 250SqFt * 25=
6250Sq.Ft.  My idea of storage is along the lines of a parking garage, where
you can have access to your vehicle without having to move the others.
Thanks
in advance for your help.
Jorge 

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Aug 20 11:20:21 2012
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:20:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage
 Building
In-Reply-To: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1208201318290.26663@itonami.pair.com>

    This is easy.  Find out the size of your property, minus the 
legally-required set-back on each side.

    Done ;)

--
  David Hillman

PS I'm told you can never have enough space, but I haven't tested this 
theory much yet.

From nick at landform.co.uk  Mon Aug 20 11:43:23 2012
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:43:23 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <004201cd7ed6$d81e54e0$885afea0$@ameritech.net>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<004201cd7ed6$d81e54e0$885afea0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5032773B.1090506@landform.co.uk>

Karl Vacek wrote:
>
> I've abused the heck out of DeWalt blades, binding them up and bending them
> into pretzels while hot.
Thanks Karl,

Now you mention it I remember someone else commenting favourably on 
Dewalt blades in the past. Since the saw is a Dewalt I'll look into 
their blades as well.

Glad to hear they can be used on roots. I've had some unhappy 
experiences with chainsaws and soil so that led to the question.

Nick

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 20 11:47:15 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:47:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W58E4B77870867D8492C9FACCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<BE9BB823-8A04-4837-A456-328E3FC2BAB7@groupwbench.org>,
	<COL115-W23045AEE8B19378C9A9D8ECCB60@phx.gbl>,
	<502CF9E9.6080103@xxiii.com>,
	<COL115-W136C76C8ADF12F87E17264CCB40@phx.gbl>,
	<CAJ8HLP8RWK9FFoJrNxjJaCFocxmRW3ZRRN-ZVj9eX-VyknqvpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-W6363F64A34D6895DD6CE91CCB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1345484835.49960.YahooMailNeo@web140003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Another source:  www.cyberpowerpc.com  No affiliation.

My dream pc is
currently at 15k. That price has varied between 10k and 15k  (Yikes!)   Have
fun with the configuration tool.. :)

As for Dells. They are great for getting
support in terms of drivers and such, but if one were to look at each
individual component, you'll see some shortcuts being taken. My current one is
3 years old, used for work. It's had various repairs over the three years.
Goes about 6-8 months before needing something. Most common problem is the
main board with the integrated video being fried. Good thing for warranty. The
repair folks have been on time, and efficient at getting the parts and
repairing. I'm due for another PC soon. 

I can't be bothered building pc's
anymore. Not worth my time getting everything to work together. 

Regards,
Brian


----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> To: peterwmurray at gmail.com; "shop-talk at autox.team.net"
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:41 PM
>
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
> 
(snip)
> So, my first question
is: does anyone have any recommendations for a good,
> reputable place to buy
a refurbished PC?  Beyond that, any recommendations on
> a specific PC? 
Following Wayne's advice, I have been looking at Dell
> Precision 390's.  

From nick at landform.co.uk  Mon Aug 20 11:50:09 2012
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:50:09 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <50324387.7060107@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<50324387.7060107@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <503278D1.9000401@landform.co.uk>

Pat Horne wrote:
> Nick,
>
> I have used these blades on lumber and they work fine. A few points 
> though.
>
> Since you are looking at a set of blades, are you going to need them 
> in the future, or is this about all you plan on cutting? It will be 
> cheaper to just buy a couple blades individually.
>
> When I cut this kind of material I use a 8 " or 12" blade, something 
> that is not in the set. You may not want to or not be able to  get the 
> saw right against the root.
>
> If you find that the saw gets stuck, you can always cut out a notch 
> like you would with an axe to give you more clearance.
>
> Last time I pulled a 12" stump we cut as many of the roots as 
> possible, then called a wrecker to pull the stump out. It had a large 
> tap root that we couldn't get to with any saw or axe.
>
Pat,

I was looking at the set as a tester for various jobs as well as the 
tree roots. Since the Sawzall type saw is not much used on this side of 
the pond it's a case of finding out what it can do. They're mostly seen 
on TV shows like "Scrapheap Challenge".

Karl mentioned the Dewalt blades so I'll probably look at them too, in 
the 8 and 12 inch lengths you recommend.

Nick

From fortee9er at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 20 12:05:31 2012
From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:05:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage
 Building
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1208201318290.26663@itonami.pair.com>
References: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1208201318290.26663@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <1345485931.71631.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Actually I am looking to lease a building /warehouse for this purpose I
don't have a property to build on. I searched the big G and found a pdf
document on a county regualtion for parking lots and garages that was very
helpful and I think I have a good handle on how much space I need. 
Thanks
Jorge


________________________________
From: David Hillman
<hillman at planet-torque.com>
To: Jorge Garcia <fortee9err at yahoo.com> 
Cc:
shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage Building
  This is easy.  Find out the size of your property, minus the
legally-required set-back on each side.

  Done ;)

--
David Hillman

PS I'm
told you can never have enough space, but I haven't tested this theory much
yet.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fortee9er at yahoo.com

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Aug 20 12:21:20 2012
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 14:21:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>
	<007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <50328020.4020703@comcast.net>

On 8/20/2012 11:05 AM, Karl Vacek wrote:
> Amen on both avoiding Dell and kudos to Lenovo.  Dell USED to be great, but
> they've cheapened beyond acceptability in random areas, plus having moved
> their support to India.  Unfortunately, HP cheapened their stuff beyond
> acceptability long ago too, and like Dell, so much is proprietary.
Reality is all of the computer manufactures are really just assemblers.  
Only real difference between them is the case and support (Lenovo and HP 
have the best support from recent research on laptops), possibly a 
proprietary power supply though 3rd party parts can be found.  None 
actually make the power supply, motherboard, processors, memory, 
hardrives, etc. themselves; the just farm it out to OEM manufactures.  
In the effort to hit the bullet points and compete on price, they tend 
to use the lowest cost parts, like power supplies and memory.  For this 
reason I never buy a system, but rather assemble it myself from parts 
I've selected.  Costs more up front but in the long haul is cheaper and 
better.  When I want to upgrade, I just buy a new 
motherboard/processor/memory (occassionally a new PSU) and reuse all the 
old components.  If a part fails, just replace with off the self 
standardized parts. After an upgrade, the older replaced parts migrate 
to the kids computers.

Peter T.

From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 13:11:17 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:11:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>
	<007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COUgjpSLuiTO=oeVr3v_G1NpKFZAszPnvc4vK+Tn26tqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
> plus having moved
> their support to India.

Not all of it.  Maybe it goes along with the high-end or Government
business support, but my support tech is in Florida.

From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 13:19:38 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:19:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage
 Building
In-Reply-To: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COGNAiK2ovTgWg-Y2NvmpFts8xTpA_hf5XMER7epMT7Hw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Jorge Garcia <fortee9er at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know that the average car will occupy 250Sq.Ft. so 250SqFt * 25=
> 6250Sq.Ft.  My idea of storage is along the lines of a parking garage, where
> you can have access to your vehicle without having to move the others.

You need to go measure the length of the cars in question, then look
at parking lots.  Assuming you plan to pull in next to the wall
(head-in or back-in parking), you will need enough aisle room to get
each car in and out.  That takes care of one dimension.  Then, allow 8
or 9 feet of width for each car (more for bigger cars or trucks) and
there's your other dimension.

Then, calculate the height you need for the lift plus the vehicle on
it.  That's your height.

The average LBC is maybe 16 feet long, so 16 + 16 + 20 (for the aisle)
means you need a building at least 50 feet in one dimension.  12 cars
on each side requires 100 feet or so.  Another 1000 sf for work area,
and you're right near your 6250 sf estimate.  But it's not just area,
but the way it's laid out that will be important.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 13:27:00 2012
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:27:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COUgjpSLuiTO=oeVr3v_G1NpKFZAszPnvc4vK+Tn26tqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>
	<007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
	<CAO8Q7COUgjpSLuiTO=oeVr3v_G1NpKFZAszPnvc4vK+Tn26tqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF7C7205-EF92-4A34-872D-066F9148584E@gmail.com>

I'm friends with the IT manager at my previous employer.  He always said that
If you buy a Dell to get one of their business machines, because the support
on that side is great while the consumer-side support is terrible.

We went from XP to Windows 7 and I considered it a huge upgrade.  There are a
lot of little features in Win7 that I used and liked that aren't in XP (The
snipping tool was very handy for the work I do).

At my new employer, they're transitioning from Dell to HP and I got an HP
laptop when I started.  It has a couple gizmos my Dell didn't have but seems
comparable enough to me.

They're also still on XP, which I like much less.  They're rolling Win7 out
over the next couple quarters, thankfully.

-Paul

On Aug 20, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
>> plus having moved
>> their support to India.
>
> Not all of it.  Maybe it goes along with the high-end or Government
> business support, but my support tech is in Florida.

From fortee9er at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 20 14:41:03 2012
From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage
 Building
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COGNAiK2ovTgWg-Y2NvmpFts8xTpA_hf5XMER7epMT7Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CAO8Q7COGNAiK2ovTgWg-Y2NvmpFts8xTpA_hf5XMER7epMT7Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1345495263.54730.YahooMailNeo@web161705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Jeff,
I found a pdf document online that was very helpfull: "Pennsylvania
Standards for Residential Site Development: April 2007" page 4 12. Based on
their "Recommended Standards" for parking, I am looking at a building that is
60ft wide and @ 128ft long . That should accomodate all my requirements
- taking building height into consideration for the lift. I don't have any
heavy duty trucks or an RV to store so that is not pertinent - at the moment.
The biggest obstacle with my project is not finding a place big enough. It
will be finding a large place with a low rent.
Best Regards
Jorge
________________________________
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Monday,
August 20, 2012 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Determining Space
Requirements for a Storage Building

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Jorge
Garcia <fortee9er at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know that the average car will occupy
250Sq.Ft. so 250SqFt * 25=
> 6250Sq.Ft.  My idea of storage is along the lines
of a parking garage, where
> you can have access to your vehicle without
having to move the others.

You need to go measure the length of the cars in
question, then look
at parking lots.  Assuming you plan to pull in next to the
wall
(head-in or back-in parking), you will need enough aisle room to get
each
car in and out.  That takes care of one dimension.  Then, allow 8
or 9 feet of
width for each car (more for bigger cars or trucks) and
there's your other
dimension.

Then, calculate the height you need for the lift plus the vehicle
on
it.  That's your height.

The average LBC is maybe 16 feet long, so 16 + 16
+ 20 (for the aisle)
means you need a building at least 50 feet in one
dimension.  12 cars
on each side requires 100 feet or so.  Another 1000 sf for
work area,
and you're right near your 6250 sf estimate.  But it's not just
area,
but the way it's laid out that will be important.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.
_______________________________________________
Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested
annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums:
http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From fortee9er at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 20 14:56:52 2012
From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:56:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage
 Building
In-Reply-To: <1345495263.54730.YahooMailNeo@web161705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CAO8Q7COGNAiK2ovTgWg-Y2NvmpFts8xTpA_hf5XMER7epMT7Hw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1345495263.54730.YahooMailNeo@web161705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1345496212.88624.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Here are my calculations :
Length of  Right Bay Length of Left Bay Aisle width
Total Width Width of Bay Storage for 2 car at 90degree angle to wall with
Aisle Number of cars to be stored/2 Storage Space Requirements 
18 18 24 60
9.5 570 10 5700 
      Shop Space 750 
      Lift Area 500 
      Office 750
Total 7700         
      Open Floor Space  6950 
      Office 750
Total 7700                 
      Building Dimensions  60 x 130
________________________________
From: Jorge Garcia <fortee9er at yahoo.com>
To:
Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>; "shop-talk at autox.team.net"
<Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:41 PM
Subject: Re:
[Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage Building

Jeff,
I
found a pdf document online that was very helpfull: "Pennsylvania
Standards
for Residential Site Development: April 2007" page 4 12. Based on
their
"Recommended Standards" for parking, I am looking at a building that is
60ft
wide and @ 128ft long . That should accomodate all my requirements
- taking
building height into consideration for the lift. I don't have any
heavy duty
trucks or an RV to store so that is not pertinent - at the moment.
The biggest
obstacle with my project is not finding a place big enough. It
will be finding
a large place with a low rent.
Best Regards
Jorge
________________________________
From: Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com>
To: "shop-talk at autox.team.net" <Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Monday,
August 20, 2012 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Determining Space
Requirements for a Storage Building

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Jorge
Garcia <fortee9er at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know that the average car will occupy
250Sq.Ft. so 250SqFt * 25=
> 6250Sq.Ft.  My idea of storage is along the lines
of a parking garage, where
> you can have access to your vehicle without
having to move the others.

You need to go measure the length of the cars in
question, then look
at parking lots.  Assuming you plan to pull in next to the
wall
(head-in or back-in parking), you will need enough aisle room to get
each
car in and out.  That takes care of one dimension.  Then, allow 8
or 9 feet of
width for each car (more for bigger cars or trucks) and
there's your other
dimension.

Then, calculate the height you need for the lift plus the vehicle
on
it.  That's your height.

The average LBC is maybe 16 feet long, so 16 + 16
+ 20 (for the aisle)
means you need a building at least 50 feet in one
dimension.  12 cars
on each side requires 100 feet or so.  Another 1000 sf for
work area,
and you're right near your 6250 sf estimate.  But it's not just
area,
but the way it's laid out that will be important.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.
_______________________________________________
Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested
annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums:
http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fortee9er at yahoo.com
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Aug 20 14:56:28 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:56:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage
 Building
In-Reply-To: <1345485931.71631.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><alpine.BSF.2.00.1208201318290.26663@itonami.pair.com>
	<1345485931.71631.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D34BB01C50EB4BED9F976EB2AAD1BE72@EricJRussellPC>

http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/cps42IRMGFE 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Aug 20 15:08:30 2012
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:08:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining Space Requirements for a Storage
 Building
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7COGNAiK2ovTgWg-Y2NvmpFts8xTpA_hf5XMER7epMT7Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1345481876.74258.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CAO8Q7COGNAiK2ovTgWg-Y2NvmpFts8xTpA_hf5XMER7epMT7Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1208201703260.21945@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012, Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
> The average LBC is maybe 16 feet long, so 16 + 16 + 20 (for the aisle)

    Sounds like this is irrelevant now, but for reference, an MGA is 13' 
long, and an MGB is a couple inches shorter still.  A 2012 Accord is 
16.25' long.

--
  David Hillman

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 18:00:34 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:00:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+k5surXi_nWv5fHtDfRxxO2A2J5nLs8bAhZMnNBVnwnuuG2Cg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just bought a Dell 17 inch laptop and have been looking for DC power
> supply/charger for it. The output of the AC supply is just over 19 volts DC
> @ almost 7 amps. I realize I could use an inverter and just plug the AC
> supply in to it, but that's a bulky kluge, IMO. Both the Accord and the
> Suburban have good sized console bins that I could stick the circuitry in
> and leave the output pigtail hanging out.
>
> I've be doing some online research, but haven't found any straight forward
> answers yet.

Have you asked dell if they supply a suitable device?

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shochschild at att.net  Mon Aug 20 18:11:24 2012
From: shochschild at att.net (steve hochschild)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:11:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
In-Reply-To: <CA+k5surXi_nWv5fHtDfRxxO2A2J5nLs8bAhZMnNBVnwnuuG2Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+k5surXi_nWv5fHtDfRxxO2A2J5nLs8bAhZMnNBVnwnuuG2Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5032D22C.2080708@att.net>

There is a business here in Austin that sells Dell equipment that is 
coming off of lease.  I have no connection to it other than being a 
highly satisfied customer.  They are called Discount Electronics, and I 
bet that they have the power supply you are looking for, as well as a 
huge pile of refurbed 3 year old Dell PCs, laptops, and a ton of 
printers.  Highly recommended...


      Discount Electronics - Dell Computers $79 Laptops $199

www.discountelectronics.com/ - 942 seller reviews
All Include 1 Year Local Warranty
1011 W Anderson Ln, Austin, TX 78757 - (512) 983-9989



On 8/20/2012 7:00 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just bought a Dell 17 inch laptop and have been looking for DC power
>> supply/charger for it. The output of the AC supply is just over 19 volts DC
>> @ almost 7 amps. I realize I could use an inverter and just plug the AC
>> supply in to it, but that's a bulky kluge, IMO. Both the Accord and the
>> Suburban have good sized console bins that I could stick the circuitry in
>> and leave the output pigtail hanging out.
>>
>> I've be doing some online research, but haven't found any straight forward
>> answers yet.
> Have you asked dell if they supply a suitable device?

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 18:14:19 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:14:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <1345479790.16818.0@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <OFBCDD0825.ED61346D-ON85257A60.004DB22A-85257A60.004E2719@mail.megageek.com>
	<1345479790.16818.0@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+k5suq4fO2b-Nq=m_+oajZih9sMg_V17UakW8DHUEpuLn_E3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Marcus Pless <mpless at ucsd.edu> wrote:
> As another data point, my department at a large SoCal University
> purchases several hundred new PCs every year for use in computer
> labs, and we've done this for years. We've purchased Dells for
> at least the last 9 out of 10 years (last summer HP wanted our
> business badly enough that they undercut Dell's pricing so we
> went with HP). The HPs are nice machines, but the only real problem
> we've ever had with the Dells was when the entire industry was
> dealing with the "bad caps" plague.

Dell's handling of that was enough to make sure I never buy one.
They replaced defective system boards with boards they repaired --
knowingly!-- with defective caps.  And then refused to replace them
when the replaced caps died.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Aug 20 18:23:54 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:23:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
Message-ID: <6c6ac0bb.236471.13946906dad.Webtop.44@charter.net>

01 Toyota w 3 liter v6.

Car wouldn't start when the boss got off work. Jump by tow truck got it 
going and she drove it home about an hour. During drive home dash lights 
were flickering.

Battery terminals were cruddy big time. I cleaned them up. (They are 
still the crappy toyota strap kind.) Window light on battery is still 
faintly green. I do not remember how old the battery is.

I cannot get it to jump start with my charger/starter but have never 
been able to get this thing to jump start a car.

Charger is showing a full charge but the little green light is 
flickering. I have never seen that before and have charged several 
batteries.

Battery was showing over 13 volts when car was running when she got 
home. I could not get a reading off the alt as the connections are all 
covered.

Help!

tim

From fishplate at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 18:48:19 2012
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:48:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
In-Reply-To: <6c6ac0bb.236471.13946906dad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <6c6ac0bb.236471.13946906dad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPGqPGr_3-rMyLdUCV6p1c22H9jJbfmDQ1WsSGH=Jg53Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 8:23 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:
> Battery was showing over 13 volts when car was running when she got
> home.

It should read the same at the alternator.  The proper way to test is
to fully charge the battery (disconnected from the car), and then load
test it.  You could also fully charge it and turn the headlights on,
then try to start the car.  Do this while measuring the voltage at the
battery terminals.  Less than 10V, plan on a new battery.  Most of the
big chain FLAPS will test your battery and alternator when they sell
you a new one - but the key is fully charged.  If the battery is run
down, it's not a fair test.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 20 18:59:47 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:59:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>
	<007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5032DD83.7030606@xxiii.com>

Wow, surprised to hear so much animosity towards Dell. Sorry if I gave 
bad advice; but I've only had good experience with them. Guess I need to 
give Win 7 more of a test drive (oh shoot, 8 is out now or soon,) It was 
doggy slow when I used it, but that was on a little HP netbook and 
another laptop, neither of which were high end to begin with. I do still 
like Win XP, and have boxes running it that stay up for months between 
reboots. Killing the unneeded services and other tweaks make it run 
excellently for me. Tho' I do use Linux to backup and load it... hmm.
   -w

On 8/20/2012 11:05 AM, Karl Vacek wrote:
> Amen on both avoiding Dell and kudos to Lenovo.  Dell USED to be great, but
> they've cheapened beyond acceptability in random areas, plus having moved
> their support to India.  Unfortunately, HP cheapened their stuff beyond
> acceptability long ago too, and like Dell, so much is proprietary.
>
> I was given a year-old Lenovo ThinkPad a few years ago - it's a well-built
> unit, and once I maxed out the RAM to 4 GB, put in a fast 500GB HDD, and
> Win7 Pro, it still flies.  Unlike Wayne, I really like Win7, though I
> skipped over Vista.  I've installed it on quite a few clients' older XP
> machines, most with RAM upgrades (though as noted DDR2 is expensive) and a
> new HDD for insurance, and even with minimal RAM (1-2 GB) it runs much
> faster with none of XP's blue screens of death or "what the heck is it
> doing" stalls.
>
> Karl

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Aug 20 19:05:13 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:05:13 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] New PC (was Dead PC)
In-Reply-To: <5032DD83.7030606@xxiii.com>
References: <4a884823.2c6564.13943d48e4c.Webtop.43@charter.net>
	<5032378D.3000202@gmail.com>
	<007001cd7ee5$42ed7040$c8c850c0$@ameritech.net>
	<5032DD83.7030606@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <5032DEC9.2000704@bradakis.com>

Just for your info, the Team.Net mail server is a Dell PowerEdge SC1430, 
running
Fedora 15.  Hopefully it will keep on running for many years.

mjb.

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Aug 20 21:22:49 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:22:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
In-Reply-To: <6c6ac0bb.236471.13946906dad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <6c6ac0bb.236471.13946906dad.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <004e01cd7f4c$3e6a2c40$0601a8c0@randall>

> Battery was showing over 13 volts when car was running when she got 
> home. I could not get a reading off the alt as the 
> connections are all 
> covered.

Over 13 volts but won't start likely means a bad battery.  Could be bad
connection or bad starter, but the battery is most likely IMO.

If they have O'Reillys in your area and can limp it over there, they will
test both battery and alternator for free.  My experience has been that they
are honest about the test, and don't try to pressure you into buying from
them even if the test shows a problem (unlike some of the other stores
around here).

Pick up some battery clamps while you're there.

-- Randall  

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Aug 20 23:02:51 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:02:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <503278D1.9000401@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<50324387.7060107@hornesystemstx.com>
	<503278D1.9000401@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5033167B.9010403@milleredp.com>

> I was looking at the set as a tester for various jobs as well as the
> tree roots. Since the Sawzall type saw is not much used on this side of
> the pond it's a case of finding out what it can do. They're mostly seen
> on TV shows like "Scrapheap Challenge".

I'm trying to come up with an appropriate sexual analogy for the 
throbbing energy of the reciprocating saw...

Seriously, though...whether you're hacking old shock brackets off a car 
frame, doing a little manipulation of wall framing, any sort of rigid 
plastic or metal piping except cast iron, it's hard to imagine life 
without one.

A battery Sawzall (with two, maybe three if they're unbranded eBay 
Chinese, batteries) will take a complete IRS assembly out of a 
pull-it-yerself junkyard old-style Jag XJ in 20 minutes.  Cut the 
exhaust pipes, the driveshaft, cut above the trailing-arm mounts 
horizontally along the bottom of the floorpan (don't bother unbolting 
them, they're invariably rusted onto the pan and the bushing's trashed 
anyway), then cut the four cage mounts.  Plop, it falls to the ground. 
Now cut the parking brake cables and hoses, drag it out and go.

BTW, if you're foolish enough to listen to me, it's CRITICAL that you 
finish the undercar work BEFORE cutting loose the trailing arms, and you 
should in any case try to avoid EVER being directly under the IRS 
assembly.  Most of the time 1-3 of the cage mounts are broken anyway, 
and...well, if it drops you may well depart this mortal existence in a 
fashion too embarrassing for your descendants to explain, and without 
even a Nelson Rockefellerish dose of snickering prurience.

> Karl mentioned the Dewalt blades so I'll probably look at them too, in
> the 8 and 12 inch lengths you recommend.

The yellow DeWalt 6 and 8in 14tpi blades are good general-purpose 
blades.  There's other brands that've worked well for me e.g. Blu-Mol. 
There are specialty blades from other mfrs that suit specific purposes 
well.  I wish I'd had a couple of the Milwaukee 'Torch' blades when 
cutting up that well-tinwormed Mk1 Cortina parts car into 
scrap-bin-sized chunks a little while back...

John.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 20 23:08:08 2012
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:08:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <503317B8.2080706@earthlink.net>

Nick,

I have on old pruning saw that is set aside for roots, which may be an 
affordable option if you just have a little cutting and don't have the 
Sawzall type saw already.

As another option, I used my rotary hammer in hammer mode with a chisel 
blade.

We had a large tree fall down and rip out a retaining wall.  There was a 
cluster of roots remaining where the new wall needed to go. The roots 
were intertwined and full of rocks.  I tried a hatchet and pruning saw, 
but wore out my arm and chipped off the corner of the hatchet.  I wanted 
minimal dirt disruption to avoid settling of the replacement wall, so 
didn't want to make a big hole trying to dig out the roots.  I wore 
heavy leather gloves and used one hand to guide the chisel.

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-1-inch-sds-rotary-hammer-97743.html
and
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-sds-masonry-flat-chisel-set-42651.html

$49 for the drill and $10 for the bits on sale.

It isn't necessarily efficient and it might have been quicker and easier 
to go with some of the blades mentioned in a Sawzall, but I didn't think 
about that.  I throw this out to the list as another choice and use for 
a fun tool.

I love the rotary hammer.  Wear hearing protection though as it is 
loud.  The only thing I use my regular hammer drill for now is precision 
stuff with small bits.

Brian

On 8/20/2012 1:50 AM, nick brearley wrote:
> Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering 
> about using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of 
> swinging an axe in close quarters.
>
> Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and 
> wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this 
> type of job.
>
> Any suggestions gratefully received.
>
> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Aug 20 23:26:43 2012
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:26:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <503317B8.2080706@earthlink.net>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk> <503317B8.2080706@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <50331C13.30208@milleredp.com>

> http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-1-inch-sds-rotary-hammer-97743.html
> and
> http://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-sds-masonry-flat-chisel-set-42651.html
>
> $49 for the drill and $10 for the bits on sale.
>
> It isn't necessarily efficient and it might have been quicker and easier
> to go with some of the blades mentioned in a Sawzall, but I didn't think
> about that.  I throw this out to the list as another choice and use for
> a fun tool.
>
> I love the rotary hammer.  Wear hearing protection though as it is
> loud.  The only thing I use my regular hammer drill for now is precision
> stuff with small bits.

You got it for $49?  Score!

Seriously, on the tool-quality scale it's a pretty rude piece.  The 
Makitas that Home Depot rents are a much, much nicer product, smoother, 
shock-damping handle, fewer knobs to twiddle to change settings, and 
just a more balanced feel.

But...those Makitas are something over $300 new, or close to $50 a day 
to rent, and I've never found one used at a price I'd pay.  So after 
renting those things for probably a total of two weeks over a four-year 
period I bought the Harbor Freight cheapie.  And it works.  As I said, 
not as well as the Makita, but it works.

A couple days ago I put a 1in hole for a piece of plastic conduit 
through the back of our brick outdoor kitchen island.  I no longer have 
to plan ahead when I want to put in anchor bolts for some fencing or 
gates, to ensure I can do them all in one four-hour rental.

I have a few of those not-very-good-but-great-for-occasional-use HF 
tools, like this thing:

http://www.harborfreight.com/compact-2-speed-1-2-half-inch-right-angle-drill-97622.html

Bought it when we were remodeling the house back in '03 and needed to 
put a whole lotta holes in studs, plates and fireblocking for gas, 
water, and drain pipe.  When I got it, it sounded like it was eating 
itself. I opened it and cleaned out the rendered goose fat or whatever 
their supplier greases the gears with and refilled it with Redline axle 
grease; it sounded a bit better.  Ran it hours and hours a day for three 
straight weeks and it far more than paid for itself; still use it 
occasionally.

John.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 23:38:10 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 00:38:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
In-Reply-To: <2a5d9d61.236a21.13946a3ad1e.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <2a5d9d61.236a21.13946a3ad1e.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <1DEABA88-5E28-421C-9613-C192B6EB460B@gmail.com>

Rapid clicks is usually a dead battery. What happens is there's enough voltage
to close the starter relay, but not enough current to turn it. Voltage falls
below what's required to close the relay so it opens. With no load, battery
voltage goes up enough to close the terminal again. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Given the other symptoms, I think the battery is worn out. Get a new one, and
cables, or at least new ends. Then test, or have Tested, the alternato.

On Aug 20, 2012, at 7:44 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> BAttery reading was while running before cleaning terminals. I cannot get it
running again to check the stuff you asked about. With the charger reading
full charge (and flickering green light) turning the key just gives rapid
clicks like I've heard when a battery is dead.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:41 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:
>>> 01 Toyota w 3 liter v6.
>>>
>>> Car wouldn't start when the boss got off work. Jump by tow truck got it
>>> going and she drove it home about an hour. During drive home dash lights
>>> were flickering.
>>>
>>> Battery terminals were cruddy big time. I cleaned them up. (They are
>>> still the crappy toyota strap kind.) Window light on battery is still
>>> faintly green. I do not remember how old the battery is.
>>>
>>> I cannot get it to jump start with my charger/starter but have never
>>> been able to get this thing to jump start a car.
>>>
>>> Charger is showing a full charge but the little green light is
>>> flickering. I have never seen that before and have charged several
>>> batteries.
>>
>> What's the open circuit voltage?  What's the voltage do when your turn
>> the high beams on?  What's it do when you hit the starter?
>>
>> I don't know what kind of charger you have, but assuming it's the
>> basic sort, the flickering light might be a sign of a bad cell.
>>
>>>
>>> Battery was showing over 13 volts when car was running when she got
>>> home. I could not get a reading off the alt as the connections are all
>>> covered.
>>>
>>
>> That seems low.  was that before or after cleaning the battery terminal?
>>
>> Don't forget, it can be both the alternator and the battery.  (A
>> failing one can kill the other....)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Help!
>>>
>>> tim
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Scheidt
>> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Aug 21 01:58:45 2012
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:58:45 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5033167B.9010403@milleredp.com>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<50324387.7060107@hornesystemstx.com>
	<503278D1.9000401@landform.co.uk> <5033167B.9010403@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <50333FB5.1070803@landform.co.uk>

John Miller wrote:
>> I was looking at the set as a tester for various jobs as well as the
>> tree roots. Since the Sawzall type saw is not much used on this side of
>> the pond it's a case of finding out what it can do. They're mostly seen
>> on TV shows like "Scrapheap Challenge".
>
> I'm trying to come up with an appropriate sexual analogy for the 
> throbbing energy of the reciprocating saw...
>

I see where you're coming from...  For me the ultimate tool is the Stihl 
cut-off saw, just the right combination of size, noise and sparks.

> I wish I'd had a couple of the Milwaukee 'Torch' blades when cutting 
> up that well-tinwormed Mk1 Cortina parts car into scrap-bin-sized 
> chunks a little while back...
>
A nailfile should deal with Cortina parts by now!

Nick

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Aug 21 02:03:09 2012
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 09:03:09 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <503317B8.2080706@earthlink.net>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk> <503317B8.2080706@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <503340BD.7070402@landform.co.uk>

Brian Kemp wrote:
> Nick,
>
> I have on old pruning saw that is set aside for roots, which may be an 
> affordable option if you just have a little cutting and don't have the 
> Sawzall type saw already.
>
> As another option, I used my rotary hammer in hammer mode with a 
> chisel blade.
>

Thank you Brian. You've just given me an excuse to buy another tool...  
Seriously though that's a good suggestion. I do have an SDS drill 
smaller than the one in your link but it does have stopmotion. I'll give 
it a try to see how it goes.

Given a sharp chisel it should be good since it can be focussed as you 
describe.

Nick

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Aug 21 05:37:28 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
Message-ID: <248fc3f0.2d6709.13948f918fe.Webtop.46@charter.net>

b
The key is fully charged.  If the battery is run down, it's not a fair
test.b


Any idea why the green bfully charge lightb is flickering when attached
to the battery and plugged in?

b
Pick up some battery clamps while you're there.b


Have set somewhere in the shop; time to either clean off a bench or buy
another set.

"Test both battery and alternator for freeb
. I guess I will be pulling
the alternator to get it tested. (pulling battery is easy, alt a little
less so.

b
Rapid clicks is usually a dead battery. Given the other symptoms, I
think the battery is worn out. Get a new one, and cables, or at least
new ends. Then test, or have Tested, the alternator.b


So it must be possible then for a battery b
eyeb
 to be green and the
battery still worn out? I will start with a new battery. I can pull the
alt but it would be a long process for me as I have to take my time and
not be hamfisted.

Thanks all!
tim

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Aug 21 06:07:50 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:07:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
In-Reply-To: <5032D22C.2080708@att.net>
References: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+k5surXi_nWv5fHtDfRxxO2A2J5nLs8bAhZMnNBVnwnuuG2Cg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5032D22C.2080708@att.net>
Message-ID: <50337A16.8030104@hornesystemstx.com>

I agree with Steve, I've bought machines and parts from Discount 
Electronics over the years also. Haven't had a bad experience yet.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake steve hochschild, On 8/20/2012 7:11 PM:
> There is a business here in Austin that sells Dell equipment that is
> coming off of lease.  I have no connection to it other than being a
> highly satisfied customer.  They are called Discount Electronics, and I
> bet that they have the power supply you are looking for, as well as a
> huge pile of refurbed 3 year old Dell PCs, laptops, and a ton of
> printers.  Highly recommended...
>
>
>        Discount Electronics - Dell Computers $79 Laptops $199
>
> www.discountelectronics.com/ - 942 seller reviews
> All Include 1 Year Local Warranty
> 1011 W Anderson Ln, Austin, TX 78757 - (512) 983-9989
>
>
>
> On 8/20/2012 7:00 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just bought a Dell 17 inch laptop and have been looking for DC power
>>> supply/charger for it. The output of the AC supply is just over 19 volts DC
>>> @ almost 7 amps. I realize I could use an inverter and just plug the AC
>>> supply in to it, but that's a bulky kluge, IMO. Both the Accord and the
>>> Suburban have good sized console bins that I could stick the circuitry in
>>> and leave the output pigtail hanging out.
>>>
>>> I've be doing some online research, but haven't found any straight forward
>>> answers yet.
>> Have you asked dell if they supply a suitable device?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Aug 21 06:17:51 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:17:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5033167B.9010403@milleredp.com>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<50324387.7060107@hornesystemstx.com>
	<503278D1.9000401@landform.co.uk> <5033167B.9010403@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <50337C6F.1010708@hornesystemstx.com>

An additional point for tree cutting. The blades I use for this work are 
variable spacing tooth blades. They vary from 2 to 4 per inch, not 
something you want to use on thin stock.  Yes that is very coarse, but 
they cut thick wood very fast, though ugly.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake John Miller, On 8/21/2012 12:02 AM:
>> I was looking at the set as a tester for various jobs as well as the
>> tree roots. Since the Sawzall type saw is not much used on this side of
>> the pond it's a case of finding out what it can do. They're mostly seen
>> on TV shows like "Scrapheap Challenge".
>
> I'm trying to come up with an appropriate sexual analogy for the 
> throbbing energy of the reciprocating saw...
>
> Seriously, though...whether you're hacking old shock brackets off a 
> car frame, doing a little manipulation of wall framing, any sort of 
> rigid plastic or metal piping except cast iron, it's hard to imagine 
> life without one.
>
> A battery Sawzall (with two, maybe three if they're unbranded eBay 
> Chinese, batteries) will take a complete IRS assembly out of a 
> pull-it-yerself junkyard old-style Jag XJ in 20 minutes.  Cut the 
> exhaust pipes, the driveshaft, cut above the trailing-arm mounts 
> horizontally along the bottom of the floorpan (don't bother unbolting 
> them, they're invariably rusted onto the pan and the bushing's trashed 
> anyway), then cut the four cage mounts.  Plop, it falls to the ground. 
> Now cut the parking brake cables and hoses, drag it out and go.
>
> BTW, if you're foolish enough to listen to me, it's CRITICAL that you 
> finish the undercar work BEFORE cutting loose the trailing arms, and 
> you should in any case try to avoid EVER being directly under the IRS 
> assembly.  Most of the time 1-3 of the cage mounts are broken anyway, 
> and...well, if it drops you may well depart this mortal existence in a 
> fashion too embarrassing for your descendants to explain, and without 
> even a Nelson Rockefellerish dose of snickering prurience.
>
>> Karl mentioned the Dewalt blades so I'll probably look at them too, in
>> the 8 and 12 inch lengths you recommend.
>
> The yellow DeWalt 6 and 8in 14tpi blades are good general-purpose 
> blades.  There's other brands that've worked well for me e.g. Blu-Mol. 
> There are specialty blades from other mfrs that suit specific purposes 
> well.  I wish I'd had a couple of the Milwaukee 'Torch' blades when 
> cutting up that well-tinwormed Mk1 Cortina parts car into 
> scrap-bin-sized chunks a little while back...
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Aug 21 06:22:00 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 05:22:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
In-Reply-To: <248fc3f0.2d6709.13948f918fe.Webtop.46@charter.net>
References: <248fc3f0.2d6709.13948f918fe.Webtop.46@charter.net>
Message-ID: <008e01cd7f97$9128eca0$0601a8c0@randall>

> Any idea why the green bfully charge lightb is flickering
> when attached
> to the battery and plugged in?

I'm guessing the battery voltage goes high enough under charge to indicate
the battery is fully charged, so the LED turns on.  Then as soon as the
charge current is removed, the voltage drops again and the LED goes out.

> "Test both battery and alternator for freeb. I guess I will
> be pulling
> the alternator to get it tested.

Just in case I was not clear before, O'Reillys will test either on or off
the car.  They didn't bat an eye even when I drove my 56 TR3 over there.
Their tester was also able to correctly determine that a battery was bad,
even though it showed a 70% state of charge.

> So it must be possible then for a battery beyeb to be green and the
> battery still worn out?

Yes, definitely possible.  The eye only indicates state of charge, not
whether the battery can deliver enough current to start the engine.

-- Randall

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Aug 21 06:28:21 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:28:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
Message-ID: <70498665.2d6fcd.1394927b110.Webtop.46@charter.net>

Unfortunately there is no FLAPS in the little town I live in and I 
cannot currently get the car running to take it to OReilly. I will put a 
new battery in it this afternoon then take it to OReilly tomorrow.
Thanks!
tim


On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Randall wrote:

>> Any idea why the green bfully charge lightb is flickering when 
>> attached
>> to the battery and plugged in?
>
> I'm guessing the battery voltage goes high enough under charge to 
> indicate
> the battery is fully charged, so the LED turns on.  Then as soon as 
> the
> charge current is removed, the voltage drops again and the LED goes 
> out.
>
>> "Test both battery and alternator for freeb. I guess I will be 
>> pulling
>> the alternator to get it tested.
>
> Just in case I was not clear before, O'Reillys will test either on or 
> off
> the car.  They didn't bat an eye even when I drove my 56 TR3 over 
> there.
> Their tester was also able to correctly determine that a battery was 
> bad,
> even though it showed a 70% state of charge.
>
>> So it must be possible then for a battery beyeb to be green and the
>> battery still worn out?
>
> Yes, definitely possible.  The eye only indicates state of charge, not
> whether the battery can deliver enough current to start the engine.
>
> -- Randall

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Aug 21 06:29:25 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:29:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5033167B.9010403@milleredp.com>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk><50324387.7060107@hornesystemstx.com><503278D1.9000401@landform.co.uk>
	<5033167B.9010403@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <6A09208DD4D1442A9AADE3D1225A1263@EricJRussellPC>

> I'm trying to come up with an appropriate sexual analogy for the 
> throbbing energy of the reciprocating saw...

*NSFW*  http://www.stockroom.com/Fuck-Saw-P2931.aspx 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Aug 21 06:32:22 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:32:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
In-Reply-To: <008e01cd7f97$9128eca0$0601a8c0@randall>
References: <248fc3f0.2d6709.13948f918fe.Webtop.46@charter.net>
	<008e01cd7f97$9128eca0$0601a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <50337FD6.3000808@hornesystemstx.com>

I thought he was talking about the green light on some batteries. This 
is just a plastic rod with a cone milled on the end that will be green 
when the battery water is low. I could be mistaken though.

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake Randall, On 8/21/2012 7:22 AM:
> <snip>
>> So it must be possible then for a battery b
eyeb
 to be green and the
>> battery still worn out?
> Yes, definitely possible.  The eye only indicates state of charge, not
> whether the battery can deliver enough current to start the engine.
>
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Aug 21 06:53:28 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:53:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
Message-ID: <37df1d0b.2d750b.139493ead7c.Webtop.46@charter.net>

This is a water level and charge indicator: green is charged, black is 
low or discharged and clear is low water.

tim


On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Pat Horne wrote:

> I thought he was talking about the green light on some batteries. This 
> is just a plastic rod with a cone milled on the end that will be green 
> when the battery water is low. I could be mistaken though.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
>
> Thusly spake Randall, On 8/21/2012 7:22 AM:
>> <snip>
>>> So it must be possible then for a battery beyeb to be green and the
>>> battery still worn out?
>> Yes, definitely possible.  The eye only indicates state of charge, 
>> not
>> whether the battery can deliver enough current to start the engine.
>>
>> -- Randall
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
> (512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug 21 09:46:33 2012
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:46:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
In-Reply-To: <37df1d0b.2d750b.139493ead7c.Webtop.46@charter.net>
References: <37df1d0b.2d750b.139493ead7c.Webtop.46@charter.net>
Message-ID: <001201cd7fb4$241550f0$6c3ff2d0$@ameritech.net>

That's the old Delco Eye.  It's basically a hydrometer.  I've never seen a
truly bad battery where the eye was green, though a good battery might not
have a green eye.  I assume it's a malfunction in the hydrometer - maybe the
float sticking?  I suppose it could stick in the "good" position, but I've
never seen one do that.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?

This is a water level and charge indicator: green is charged, black is low
or discharged and clear is low water.
tim

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 10:36:06 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:36:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DC to DC PS/charger
In-Reply-To: <50337A16.8030104@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <CAMHhs6dUsb=fSdEYb3qeZmcCfDZcX2AqENQU=EQ9NPyntNwKFQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+k5surXi_nWv5fHtDfRxxO2A2J5nLs8bAhZMnNBVnwnuuG2Cg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5032D22C.2080708@att.net> <50337A16.8030104@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6f8NEe7DuXTKq0t6nkCt6og7fdaiti1+0YVOoYov_Z_tA@mail.gmail.com>

While I could build a DC to DC rig to do what I want, it's far easier and
cheaper just to use an inverter in the vehicles. Steve, I appreciate you
mentioning Discount. They have the AC supply for $50 and I'm getting ready
to order one in a few minutes.

Ron


>  There is a business here in Austin that sells Dell equipment that is
>> coming off of lease.  I have no connection to it other than being a
>> highly satisfied customer.  They are called Discount Electronics, and I
>> bet that they have the power supply you are looking for, as well as a
>> huge pile of refurbed 3 year old Dell PCs, laptops, and a ton of
>> printers.  Highly recommended...

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Tue Aug 21 11:22:52 2012
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:22:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <50331C13.30208@milleredp.com>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
	<503317B8.2080706@earthlink.net> <50331C13.30208@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <5033C3EC.6010805@frontier.com>

I got one of those years ago for probably less than that.  It lives at 
school most of the time because the high school is mostly concrete 
(think prison construction with less stainless steel) and someone always 
wants to hang a poster or white board on a cast in place concrete wall.  
Shop teachers get all the fun jobs.


On 8/20/2012 10:26 PM, John Miller wrote:
>>
>> I love the rotary hammer.  Wear hearing protection though as it is
>> loud.  The only thing I use my regular hammer drill for now is precision
>> stuff with small bits.
>
> You got it for $49?  Score!
>
> Seriously, on the tool-quality scale it's a pretty rude piece. The 
> Makitas that Home Depot rents are a much, much nicer product, 
> smoother, shock-damping handle, fewer knobs to twiddle to change 
> settings, and just a more balanced feel. 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 14:01:09 2012
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:01:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] alt or battery?
In-Reply-To: <001201cd7fb4$241550f0$6c3ff2d0$@ameritech.net>
References: <37df1d0b.2d750b.139493ead7c.Webtop.46@charter.net>
	<001201cd7fb4$241550f0$6c3ff2d0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <08FD1EC1-72DC-43F6-A0B6-6D72ADF61AAA@gmail.com>

On Aug 21, 2012, at 10:46 AM, "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> That's the old Delco Eye.  It's basically a hydrometer.  I've never seen a
> truly bad battery where the eye was green, though a good battery might not
> have a green eye.  I assume it's a malfunction in the hydrometer - maybe
the
> float sticking?  I suppose it could stick in the "good" position, but I've
> never seen one do that.
> Karl

If there's only one, the cell it's in might be okay, but the five might not
be.

From tputland at charter.net  Wed Aug 22 08:45:51 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:45:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] .doc to .jpg?
Message-ID: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>

Is there a way to change a word .doc to a .jpg?
Thanks
tim

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 09:01:21 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:01:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] .doc to .jpg?
In-Reply-To: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
References: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6fCPqfWnvqHi8D8vOmtE9BD8hXM=j=dYJPmP_gSpBc1kQ@mail.gmail.com>

Other than scanning a hard (paper) copy of the document and saving it as a
Jpeg image, I don't think so. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish,
but the jpeg will result almost certainly result in a larger file and (of
course) be uneditable as text.

Ron

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote:

> Is there a way to change a word .doc to a .jpg?
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Wed Aug 22 09:05:06 2012
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:05:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] .doc to .jpg?
In-Reply-To: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
References: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <3FE95B31-E9C2-4CE5-AE99-386FD0008C41@mac.com>

Couple of hits from Google:

http://www.wikihow.com/Change-a-Word-Document-to-JPEG-Format

http://www.zamzar.com/convert/doc-to-jpg/

-Darrell


On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Tim wrote:

> Is there a way to change a word .doc to a .jpg?
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Wed Aug 22 09:06:08 2012
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:06:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] .doc to .jpg?
In-Reply-To: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
References: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <A123D2A3-96CA-4539-8424-3772EE53CE51@trebelhorn.com>

You can take a screenshot, or several, with the document open.

Matt


On 22 Aug, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Tim wrote:

> Is there a way to change a word .doc to a .jpg?
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ 
> matt.lists at trebelhorn.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Aug 22 09:23:51 2012
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:23:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] .doc to .jpg?
In-Reply-To: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
References: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20120822111714.05925f70@cox.net>

At 10:45 AM 8/22/2012, Tim wrote:

 >Is there a way to change a word .doc to a .jpg?

Tim,

Like Ronnie said, you'll end up with a large uneditable file.  If you 
are looking for an uneditable file, or are trying to include a 
picture in a document, you might
want to try making it a PDF file.  There is a free online converter, zamzar:
<http://www.zamzar.com/signup/?e#go>http://www.zamzar.com/


John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

 From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy:
      e pluribus Unum, "from many, one."
      In God We Trust
      Liberty - the  power  of  choosing,  thinking,  and  acting  for
                   oneself; freedom  from  control  or  restriction

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Aug 22 12:12:59 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:12:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] .doc to .jpg?
In-Reply-To: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
References: <10f13638.2e57e9.1394ecbedb2.Webtop.43@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5035212B.8060509@xxiii.com>

On 8/22/2012 10:45 AM, Tim wrote:
> Is there a way to change a word .doc to a .jpg?
> Thanks
> tim

Not sure about a jpg. If you're looking for an indelible document, pdf 
is probably the way to go. But Google "printkey 2000", it's a very 
useful utility for taking screenshots. LibreOffice, OpenOffice, or newer 
versions of MS Word will output PDFs.

-Wayne

From tputland at charter.net  Wed Aug 22 12:26:25 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:26:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] .doc to .jpg?
Message-ID: <4a109796.2e8519.1394f95df26.Webtop.43@charter.net>

Thanks all. I am not looking to make something uneditable <is that a 
word? otherwise I would definitely go the pdf route.

Screen shot is the way to go. Guess I am (admittedly) lazy and don't 
like to google.

Thanks again!
Tim



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Tim wrote:

> Is there a way to change a word .doc to a .jpg?
> Thanks
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From bob at texmog.com  Wed Aug 22 12:56:41 2012
From: bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:56:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine Vibration
Message-ID: <5323E2484D7D47EB911C1969B90B7CD6@dellPC>

Ibve got a single cylinder motorcycle engine that was recently rebuilt,
Ibve got it running wonderfully except for a problem with a mid throttle
vibration.
At the upper end and at idle the vibration is not present to any great extent
but comes on very strong only at mid throttle with no load.

I was assured by the rebuilder that everything was okay. No major parts needed
to be replaced ( same piston, rod and crank).

Any suggestions as to where to look for a cause of the vibration?

Thanks
Bob

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Aug 22 13:03:11 2012
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:03:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dewalt Rechargeable Batteries and Primecell
Message-ID: <OF183B10C4.55A90A6E-ON85257A62.0068711E-85257A62.00691A7B@mail.megageek.com>

About 3 years ago, I had two of my Dewalt 18v batteries 'rebuilt' by 
Primecell.

It was a pretty straightforward process and I was happy at the time. 
However, the other day, I when to use my dewalt drill and neither battery 
would work.

After a short inspection, it seems the rear terminals on these batteries 
were corroded.  I checked other batteries I had and there was no 
corrosion.  Some of the batteries were years older than the Primecell ones 
with the corrosion.

So I plan to write them to explain the situation, but I was wondering if I 
could get any input here first.

For one, has anyone else seen this on Primecell (or other) batteries?

Does anyone know what could cause the rear terminal to corrode?  Note, I 
do not leave my batteries on the chargers for longer than they require a 
charge, I don't use them that often, I always replace batteries before 
they are completely dead.  All my batteries are stored in the same place. 

So why only these batteries?

Thanks.

Eric P
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Aug 22 13:12:51 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:12:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine Vibration
Message-ID: <20120822151251.o0sxfbqbi00ks8wo@webmail2.centurytel.net>

How are the engine mounts?

Does the engine have any balancing shafts? If so there is usually a 
specific procedure for 'synchronizing' them. 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

Quoting Bob Nogueira <bob at texmog.com>:
> At the upper end and at idle the vibration is not present to any great extent
> but comes on very strong only at mid throttle with no load. 

> Any suggestions as to where to look for a cause of the vibration?

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Aug 23 21:45:13 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:45:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades
In-Reply-To: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
References: <5031FA53.2020007@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BD8C51BEEC5843F4AF9746B74E241BB2@EntCentPC>

I have some "Greenwood" tree trimming blades and they work, but are almost
useless compared to a chainsaw. 

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of nick brearley
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 1:50 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sawzall blades

Got to remove a tree growing beside the shop and I've been wondering 
about using a Sawzall type saw for cutting the roots. Getting tired of 
swinging an axe in close quarters.

Looking on ebay I came across these   http://tinyurl.com/8fcvykz and 
wondered if anyone had experience in using these, or similar, for this 
type of job.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Nick Brearley
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sat Aug 25 09:03:42 2012
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:03:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?
Message-ID: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org>

Surprisingly I don't see anything in the archives about this..

I have a garage ceiling that's 11'3 from finished floor to (soon to be)
finished floor. I'd like a set of sturdy pull down stairs that can span this
height and carry a 300lb load. Have you used anything you like?

thanks,

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Aug 25 09:29:51 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:29:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?
In-Reply-To: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org>
References: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <5038EF6F.40502@xxiii.com>

I was shopping for attic ladders recently. Werner has one that's 
supposed to be good for up to 12' ceilings and 375lbs.
http://us.wernerco.com/products/climbing-equipment/attic-ladders
Maybe not something stocked locally. Try Lowes or Amazon online?

-wayne

On 8/25/2012 11:03 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Surprisingly I don't see anything in the archives about this..
>
> I have a garage ceiling that's 11'3 from finished floor to (soon to be)
> finished floor. I'd like a set of sturdy pull down stairs that can span this
> height and carry a 300lb load. Have you used anything you like?
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 10:11:46 2012
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:11:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?
In-Reply-To: <5038EF6F.40502@xxiii.com>
References: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org>
	<5038EF6F.40502@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6dztC8ib-J2MUrJ8-ZKESPF94LUoPrt=pzuVN6SqhzgVw@mail.gmail.com>

You really can't go wrong with Werner.

Ron
On Aug 25, 2012 10:31 AM, "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> I was shopping for attic ladders recently. Werner has one that's supposed
> to be good for up to 12' ceilings and 375lbs.
> http://us.wernerco.com/**products/climbing-equipment/**attic-ladders<http://us.wernerco.com/products/climbing-equipment/attic-ladders>
> Maybe not something stocked locally. Try Lowes or Amazon online?
>
> -wayne
>
> On 8/25/2012 11:03 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>
>> Surprisingly I don't see anything in the archives about this..
>>
>> I have a garage ceiling that's 11'3 from finished floor to (soon to be)
>> finished floor. I'd like a set of sturdy pull down stairs that can span
>> this
>> height and carry a 300lb load. Have you used anything you like?
>>
>> thanks,
>> ______________________________**_________________
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/ronnie.day@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com>

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Sat Aug 25 10:47:46 2012
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:47:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?
In-Reply-To: <5038EF6F.40502@xxiii.com>
References: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org>
	<5038EF6F.40502@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145C8548B16D@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>

Hmm, is there a solution out there for a bit taller?  My ceiling height is
13'8"

Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:30 AM
To: Jim Franklin; Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?

I was shopping for attic ladders recently. Werner has one that's supposed to
be good for up to 12' ceilings and 375lbs.
http://us.wernerco.com/products/climbing-equipment/attic-ladders
Maybe not something stocked locally. Try Lowes or Amazon online?

-wayne

On 8/25/2012 11:03 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Surprisingly I don't see anything in the archives about this..
>
> I have a garage ceiling that's 11'3 from finished floor to (soon to
> be) finished floor. I'd like a set of sturdy pull down stairs that can
> span this height and carry a 300lb load. Have you used anything you like?
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/stuart.a.galt at boeing.com

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Aug 25 13:45:33 2012
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 15:45:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?
In-Reply-To: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145C8548B16D@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org><5038EF6F.40502@xxiii.com>
	<098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145C8548B16D@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <4801CB018FAF496B897409D008504B42@EricJRussellPC>

If the attic access is not something you will need often, you can make a 
simple platform to place on the floor such that the bottom of a slightly 
shorter pull down stair can rest upon it. I did this in our pre-remodeled 
garage. I had a ~ 3' X 3' box made of 2X12's & plywood. I marked the 
location on the garage floor with a few paint stripes.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Galt, Stuart A" <stuart.a.galt at boeing.com>
To: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>; "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>; 
"Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?


> Hmm, is there a solution out there for a bit taller?  My ceiling height is
> 13'8"
>
> Stuart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:30 AM
> To: Jim Franklin; Shop Talk List
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?
>
> I was shopping for attic ladders recently. Werner has one that's supposed 
> to
> be good for up to 12' ceilings and 375lbs.
> http://us.wernerco.com/products/climbing-equipment/attic-ladders
> Maybe not something stocked locally. Try Lowes or Amazon online?
>
> -wayne
>
> On 8/25/2012 11:03 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>> Surprisingly I don't see anything in the archives about this..
>>
>> I have a garage ceiling that's 11'3 from finished floor to (soon to
>> be) finished floor. I'd like a set of sturdy pull down stairs that can
>> span this height and carry a 300lb load. Have you used anything you like?
>>
>> thanks,
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/stuart.a.galt at boeing.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell at mebtel.net

From jdrush at enter.net  Sun Aug 26 19:38:22 2012
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:38:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tall sturdy pull down stairs?
In-Reply-To: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org>
References: <C26F37A0-A2B8-490C-B576-60D271F0C5CB@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <503ACF8E.5060607@enter.net>

These guys have models up to 11' 6" 
http://www.rainbowatticstair.com/attic-stairs-products/prestige-folding-attic-stairs.cfm

Jon

On 8/25/2012 11:03 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Surprisingly I don't see anything in the archives about this..
>
> I have a garage ceiling that's 11'3 from finished floor to (soon to be)
> finished floor. I'd like a set of sturdy pull down stairs that can span this
> height and carry a 300lb load. Have you used anything you like?

From bob at texmog.com  Wed Aug 29 12:23:21 2012
From: bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:23:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Sound system
Message-ID: <B6726FBF024447DD9AE65D37284476AF@dellPC>

In my garage I have a PC computer with my music and a internet connection. On
the other side of the garage (30 feet)  is the FM stereo amp.  For several
reasons I can not have the amp and PC close together. I have been using a
Bluetooth to get the  computer audio output to the amp.

The Bluetooth has been a real pain so I would now like to hardwire the
computers audio output to the amps  aux input.

My Question is what gauge wire will I need to cover the  30 b40 ft. between
the computer and amp?

Bob

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 12:33:25 2012
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:33:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Sound system
In-Reply-To: <B6726FBF024447DD9AE65D37284476AF@dellPC>
References: <B6726FBF024447DD9AE65D37284476AF@dellPC>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YDtOKZTtgLG2v+t1A_YY0gHUqXs5dg4F796fuPX7oS-zg@mail.gmail.com>

Gauge of wire will not be an issue really, but you need some shielding to
keep the noise down.  You will not get acceptable audio quality over that
distance with plain old speaker wire.

 Use something like this if you have stereo headphone jacks at each end:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021812&p_id=5583&seq=1&format=2
or This if you have RCA jacks at each end :
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021814&p_id=5349&seq=1&format=2



On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Bob Nogueira <bob at texmog.com> wrote:

> In my garage I have a PC computer with my music and a internet connection.
> On
> the other side of the garage (30 feet)  is the FM stereo amp.  For several
> reasons I can not have the amp and PC close together. I have been using a
> Bluetooth to get the  computer audio output to the amp.
>
> The Bluetooth has been a real pain so I would now like to hardwire the
> computers audio output to the amps  aux input.
>
> My Question is what gauge wire will I need to cover the  30 b 40 ft.
> between
> the computer and amp?
>
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>


-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug 29 12:38:55 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (tr3driver at ca.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:38:55 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Sound system
In-Reply-To: <B6726FBF024447DD9AE65D37284476AF@dellPC>
Message-ID: <20120829183855.8QPDS.90723.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

> My Question is what gauge wire will I need to cover the  30 b40 ft.
between
> the computer and amp?

If you use the speaker output from the PC, and a "line in" connection on the
amp, then almost anything will do.  Even 24 AWG will only add about 2 ohms DC
resistance, which is negligible compared to the ~10k ohm "line in".  And the
low output impedance should keep it from picking up any hum or coupling from
other wires.  (Assuming you aren't looking for concert hall realism here, just
background noise while you work <g>)

If hum or noise pickup does prove to be a problem, either re-route the wire or
use something shielded.

-- Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug 29 13:02:50 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (tr3driver at ca.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:02:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
Message-ID: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

I intend to try doing my own resleeving job on the clutch MC for my 56 Triumph TR3.  Yes, I know I could send it out, but where's the fun in that?  The old one is in decent shape overall, but the bore is worn some .045" oversize and the seal won't hold against such a big gap.

My thought is to stand the aluminum cylinder up in the vertical mill, supported by big standoffs from the table to the cylinder mounting ears, bore the cylinder to .001" smaller than the od of some thinwall brass tubing with a suitable id, then use a mandrel to press the tubing into place with a few drops of Loctite for good measure.  With any luck the brass tubing won't crush enough to need adjustment, but if it comes out too small, I'll ream or hone it to size.

Any thoughts on easier, better ways to do this?

Looks like I'll have to first make my own B&S #7 tail for a (new) boring head.  Any advice on that process would be welcome as well.  

My thought is to mount some 12L14 in the 3-jaw; center drill and use a live center to support it while I machine the taper & threads for the boring head without moving it in the chuck, then drill & tap for the drawbar with the outer end unsupported.  That should leave the taper & head mount perfectly concentric; I don't really care if the drawbar hole is a bit off.

I'm a rank amateur machinist, so any words of wisdom will be welcome.

--- Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug 29 13:03:11 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (tr3driver at ca.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:03:11 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
Message-ID: <20120829190311.YBDV6.91696.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

I intend to try doing my own resleeving job on the clutch MC for my 56 Triumph TR3.  Yes, I know I could send it out, but where's the fun in that?  The old one is in decent shape overall, but the bore is worn some .045" oversize and the seal won't hold against such a big gap.

My thought is to stand the aluminum cylinder up in the vertical mill, supported by big standoffs from the table to the cylinder mounting ears, bore the cylinder to .001" smaller than the od of some thinwall brass tubing with a suitable id, then use a mandrel to press the tubing into place with a few drops of Loctite for good measure.  With any luck the brass tubing won't crush enough to need adjustment, but if it comes out too small, I'll ream or hone it to size.

Any thoughts on easier, better ways to do this?

Looks like I'll have to first make my own B&S #7 tail for a (new) boring head.  Any advice on that process would be welcome as well.  

My thought is to mount some 12L14 in the 3-jaw; center drill and use a live center to support it while I machine the taper & threads for the boring head without moving it in the chuck, then drill & tap for the drawbar with the outer end unsupported.  That should leave the taper & head mount perfectly concentric; I don't really care if the drawbar hole is a bit off.

I'm a rank amateur machinist, so any words of wisdom will be welcome.

--- Randall

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Wed Aug 29 13:22:34 2012
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:22:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
Message-ID: <001601cd861b$a608dc90$f21a95b0$@cablespeed.com>

A nice project for an amateur machinist but while you are working on it
order a new one because your chances of getting it right on the first try
are slim. 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of tr3driver at ca.rr.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:03 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder

I intend to try doing my own resleeving job on the clutch MC for my 56
Triumph TR3.  Yes, I know I could send it out, but where's the fun in that?
The old one is in decent shape overall, but the bore is worn some .045"
oversize and the seal won't hold against such a big gap.

My thought is to stand the aluminum cylinder up in the vertical mill,
supported by big standoffs from the table to the cylinder mounting ears,
bore the cylinder to .001" smaller than the od of some thinwall brass tubing
with a suitable id, then use a mandrel to press the tubing into place with a
few drops of Loctite for good measure.  With any luck the brass tubing won't
crush enough to need adjustment, but if it comes out too small, I'll ream or
hone it to size.

Any thoughts on easier, better ways to do this?

Looks like I'll have to first make my own B&S #7 tail for a (new) boring
head.  Any advice on that process would be welcome as well.  

My thought is to mount some 12L14 in the 3-jaw; center drill and use a live
center to support it while I machine the taper & threads for the boring head
without moving it in the chuck, then drill & tap for the drawbar with the
outer end unsupported.  That should leave the taper & head mount perfectly
concentric; I don't really care if the drawbar hole is a bit off.

I'm a rank amateur machinist, so any words of wisdom will be welcome.

--- Randall
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug 29 17:44:15 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (tr3driver at ca.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:44:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <001601cd861b$a608dc90$f21a95b0$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <20120829234416.CEFXH.95675.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

---- Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> wrote: 
> A nice project for an amateur machinist but while you are working on it
> order a new one because your chances of getting it right on the first try
> are slim. 

Only problem with that, no one makes a 'correct' new cylinder for my car.

But I will practice on some scrap cylinders first.

Randall

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Wed Aug 29 18:04:21 2012
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan Fest)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:04:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
Message-ID: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>

I have a fairly new schumacher SE4022 battery charger.  It's a good quality
one for trucks, etc.  We were using it the other day and it was working fine.
While in use, we heard a click and it stopped working.  Is anyone familar with
these ?? Does it have a circuit breaker of fuse ???? I'd like to try to fix it
since it cost almost $350 last year.
thanks,
Dan

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 18:58:06 2012
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:58:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Sound system
In-Reply-To: <B6726FBF024447DD9AE65D37284476AF@dellPC>
References: <B6726FBF024447DD9AE65D37284476AF@dellPC>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP_cJNX0G6z7iZjRVikwAwyt_+oP=g_4nEtwker=tqHENA@mail.gmail.com>

You could use a FM Stereo transmitter with a battery/12V supply for this. I
have been a big fan of the Belkin TuneCast, as it will transmit on any
frequency, and it is not difficult to tack on a better transmitting antenna.

http://tinyurl.com/cz9v6ev

If you have trouble finding the Belkin, likely any one will do. Or you can
build one from a Ramsey Electronics kit - though I would recommend the
FM-25 over the FM-10, for better frequency stability.

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/hk/default.asp?page=amfm

If something smaller could be made to fit where the PC is, you could look
at a much smaller amp and ceiling speakers....

-Peter

On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Bob Nogueira <bob at texmog.com> wrote:
> In my garage I have a PC computer with my music and a internet
connection. On
> the other side of the garage (30 feet) is the FM stereo amp. For several
> reasons I can not have the amp and PC close together. I have been using a
> Bluetooth to get the computer audio output to the amp.
>
> The Bluetooth has been a real pain so I would now like to hardwire the
> computers audio output to the amps aux input.
>
> My Question is what gauge wire will I need to cover the 30 b 40 ft.
between
> the computer and amp?
>
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 20:55:35 2012
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:55:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
In-Reply-To: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
References: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
Message-ID: <1346295335.91321.YahooMailNeo@web140004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

A little googling on the model number shows the rectifiers may be blown. Based
on my experiences with other chargers with a similar issue, the rectifier
issue may have some merit. Seems you can purchase just the parts with a bit of
digging.   www.digikey.com has a good cross reference even if they surcharge
for being under minimum order. 

Regards,
Brian
>________________________________
> From: Dan Fest <coles at colesnurseries.com>
>To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:04 PM
>Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
> 
>I have a fairly
new schumacher SE4022 battery charger.  It's a good quality
>one for trucks,
etc.  We were using it the other day and it was working fine.
>While in use,
we heard a click and it stopped working.  Is anyone familar with
>these ??
Does it have a circuit breaker of fuse ???? I'd like to try to fix it
>since
it cost almost $350 last year.
>thanks,
>Dan
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/battmain at yahoo.com

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Aug 29 22:09:26 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 21:09:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
Message-ID: <7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>

Randall, 

You have a handle on the sizing, but assemble it just like installing the
Throw Out bearing in your tranny.  Put the cylinder in the oven and the
sleeve in the freezer.  When the temperatures stabilize slip that tube right
into place.  Pressing thin wall tube with that L/D will likely destroy the
sleeve.  

While I can't say for sure, I seriously doubt there is any need for
locktite, as the only load on the cylinder trying to push the sleeve out is
the friction of the seal as it slides along the tube, but that is
counteracted by the load the pressure puts radially outward into the MC.

If it works, let me know.  I have two of those on the shelf, but like you (I
suspect) I carry a good one in the boot at all times, since the MC is the
same for the clutch as it is for the single MC, single circuit brake system.

Later,

Jack
TR's 3&8

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of tr3driver at ca.rr.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:03 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder

I intend to try doing my own resleeving job on the clutch MC for my 56
Triumph TR3.  Yes, I know I could send it out, but where's the fun in that?
The old one is in decent shape overall, but the bore is worn some .045"
oversize and the seal won't hold against such a big gap.

My thought is to stand the aluminum cylinder up in the vertical mill,
supported by big standoffs from the table to the cylinder mounting ears,
bore the cylinder to .001" smaller than the od of some thinwall brass tubing
with a suitable id, then use a mandrel to press the tubing into place with a
few drops of Loctite for good measure.  With any luck the brass tubing won't
crush enough to need adjustment, but if it comes out too small, I'll ream or
hone it to size.

Any thoughts on easier, better ways to do this?

Looks like I'll have to first make my own B&S #7 tail for a (new) boring
head.  Any advice on that process would be welcome as well.  

My thought is to mount some 12L14 in the 3-jaw; center drill and use a live
center to support it while I machine the taper & threads for the boring head
without moving it in the chuck, then drill & tap for the drawbar with the
outer end unsupported.  That should leave the taper & head mount perfectly
concentric; I don't really care if the drawbar hole is a bit off.

I'm a rank amateur machinist, so any words of wisdom will be welcome.

--- Randall
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Aug 30 09:02:02 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:02:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
	<7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>
Message-ID: <503F806A.2020605@xxiii.com>

Randall, et al:
How do you keep an old car like that going? Some stuff you're obviously 
gonna have to fab' or improvise. I guess it depends on how determined 
you are to keep it original. It seems like other enthusiasts would have 
figured something like "oh! just go to AutoZone and score the M.C. for a 
{insert modern car here}; it's practically a drop-in with just a little 
line bending."

Would it possibly be easier to over-bore the cylinder, and fabricate a 
matching piston & rod assy?

-Wayne

> Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
>
> I intend to try doing my own resleeving job on the clutch MC for my 56
> Triumph TR3.  Yes, I know I could send it out, but where's the fun in that?
> The old one is in decent shape overall, but the bore is worn some .045"
> oversize and the seal won't hold against such a big gap.

From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 09:19:37 2012
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:19:37 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <503F806A.2020605@xxiii.com>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
	<7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>
	<503F806A.2020605@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <CALfYgtmNX2ue_a8kdwnecmTuDLYUU6n5yjoY-q3dfcXQVzn6dw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> Randall, et al:
> How do you keep an old car like that going? Some stuff you're obviously
> gonna have to fab' or improvise. I guess it depends on how determined you
> are to keep it original. It seems like other enthusiasts would have figured
> something like "oh! just go to AutoZone and score the M.C. for a {insert
> modern car here}; it's practically a drop-in with just a little line
> bending."
>
> Would it possibly be easier to over-bore the cylinder, and fabricate a
> matching piston & rod assy?
>
> -Wayne

or some remanufacturing guy makes something special for you so you can
keep the original as a spare or part of the items history and use a
pattern part which takes the everyday wear.
people like me take drawings or better still the original parts and
what they mount on and remake a pattern part.

I make little gears and similar for people
http://gears.archivist.info/

Dave Caroline

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Aug 30 10:04:01 2012
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:04:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
Message-ID: <143e2507.34a90b.13978466159.Webtop.47@charter.net>

This is too cool!

> I make little gears and similar for people
> http://gears.archivist.info/


tim

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Aug 30 10:05:48 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:05:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtmNX2ue_a8kdwnecmTuDLYUU6n5yjoY-q3dfcXQVzn6dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
	<7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>
	<503F806A.2020605@xxiii.com>
	<CALfYgtmNX2ue_a8kdwnecmTuDLYUU6n5yjoY-q3dfcXQVzn6dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503F8F5C.4090202@hornesystemstx.com>

Dave,

Very impressive work! I knew this kind of work must be being done, but I 
have never actually paid much attention to it. Keep up the good work, 
Thanks for the posting

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Dave Caroline, On 8/30/2012 10:19 AM:
> <snip>
> or some remanufacturing guy makes something special for you so you can
> keep the original as a spare or part of the items history and use a
> pattern part which takes the everyday wear.
> people like me take drawings or better still the original parts and
> what they mount on and remake a pattern part.
>
> I make little gears and similar for people
> http://gears.archivist.info/
>
> Dave Caroline
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Aug 30 10:47:09 2012
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:47:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
In-Reply-To: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
References: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1208301241060.67458@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012, Dan Fest wrote:
> I have a fairly new schumacher SE4022 battery charger.  It's a good quality
> one for trucks, etc.  We were using it the other day and it was working fine.
> While in use, we heard a click and it stopped working.  Is anyone 
> familar with these ?? Does it have a circuit breaker of fuse ???? I'd 
> like to try to fix it since it cost almost $350 last year.

    I have a different model Schumacher charger with the same problem. 
Last year it just stopped working.  I thought the same thing you are 
thinking, but when I disassembled it, I found no such easy fixes.  No 
blown fuses.  I did find a loose connection, but that wasn't the problem.

    I never did fix it, and bought a replacement ( since my original lasted 
many years ) instead.  Haven't quite brought myself to throw out or 
recycle the broken yet, since it doesn't look like 'junk' yet ;)

    Good luck.

--
  David Hillman

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Aug 30 11:50:01 2012
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:50:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1208301241060.67458@itonami.pair.com>
References: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1208301241060.67458@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <503FA7C9.8000102@hornesystemstx.com>

I has a Schumacher charger about 15 years ago that worked fine until it 
blew the diodes. A call too the manufacturer got me a free set of 
rectifiers, I just had to pay shipping. You might see what they say.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David Hillman, On 8/30/2012 11:47 AM:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012, Dan Fest wrote:
>> I have a fairly new schumacher SE4022 battery charger.  It's a good 
>> quality
>> one for trucks, etc.  We were using it the other day and it was 
>> working fine.
>> While in use, we heard a click and it stopped working.  Is anyone 
>> familar with these ?? Does it have a circuit breaker of fuse ???? I'd 
>> like to try to fix it since it cost almost $350 last year.
>
>    I have a different model Schumacher charger with the same problem. 
> Last year it just stopped working.  I thought the same thing you are 
> thinking, but when I disassembled it, I found no such easy fixes.  No 
> blown fuses.  I did find a loose connection, but that wasn't the problem.
>
>    I never did fix it, and bought a replacement ( since my original 
> lasted many years ) instead.  Haven't quite brought myself to throw 
> out or recycle the broken yet, since it doesn't look like 'junk' yet ;)
>
>    Good luck.
>
> -- 
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Thu Aug 30 12:22:34 2012
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:22:34 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <001601cd861b$a608dc90$f21a95b0$@cablespeed.com>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
	<001601cd861b$a608dc90$f21a95b0$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <503FAF6A.4050208@talktalk.net>

Not that difficult - I sleeved the main cylinder bore of a brake servo - 
steel sleeve into an ally alloy casting. Made the sleeve a close slide 
fit, held with Loctite, but it couldn't go anywhere as it was trapped in 
place once the servo was assembled. The one thing I did do was to get it 
honed before sliding it in - so that it was easy to hone all the way to 
the end.

Making a new oversized piston is probably not a good idea - the larger 
bore would mess up the throw of the slave cylinder. Certainly could be 
overcome, but I think it would be easy to make a straight sleeve anyway.

Neil


On 29/08/2012 20:22, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> A nice project for an amateur machinist but while you are working on it
> order a new one because your chances of getting it right on the first try
> are slim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of tr3driver at ca.rr.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:03 PM
> To: Shop Talk
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
>
> I intend to try doing my own resleeving job on the clutch MC for my 56
> Triumph TR3.  Yes, I know I could send it out, but where's the fun in that?
> The old one is in decent shape overall, but the bore is worn some .045"
> oversize and the seal won't hold against such a big gap.
>
> My thought is to stand the aluminum cylinder up in the vertical mill,
> supported by big standoffs from the table to the cylinder mounting ears,
> bore the cylinder to .001" smaller than the od of some thinwall brass tubing
> with a suitable id, then use a mandrel to press the tubing into place with a
> few drops of Loctite for good measure.  With any luck the brass tubing won't
> crush enough to need adjustment, but if it comes out too small, I'll ream or
> hone it to size.
>
> Any thoughts on easier, better ways to do this?
>
> Looks like I'll have to first make my own B&S #7 tail for a (new) boring
> head.  Any advice on that process would be welcome as well.
>
> My thought is to mount some 12L14 in the 3-jaw; center drill and use a live
> center to support it while I machine the taper & threads for the boring head
> without moving it in the chuck, then drill & tap for the drawbar with the
> outer end unsupported.  That should leave the taper & head mount perfectly
> concentric; I don't really care if the drawbar hole is a bit off.
>
> I'm a rank amateur machinist, so any words of wisdom will be welcome.
>
> --- Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Aug 30 12:33:51 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:33:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
In-Reply-To: <503FA7C9.8000102@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1208301241060.67458@itonami.pair.com>
	<503FA7C9.8000102@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <503FB20F.3090608@xxiii.com>

I have a relatively little model of theirs. 2 / 10 / 60amp @ 12V. Got it 
at AdvanceAuto, but I'e seen the identical one with different paint 
elsewhere. Took a look "under the hood" years ago. No much to 'em. I'd 
agree with the part about the rectifiers. It's either gonna have a 
decent sized 4 terminal bridge rectifier, or discrete diodes, pretty 
close to the transformer. If you have a meter and know some basic 
electronics, you can test it pretty easily. Diodes can likely be 
replaced with 1N40xx series parts. And bridges are pretty standard. When 
in doubt, go for higher current rating. Available from Digi-Key, Mouser, 
Newark, or even Radio Shanty.

If it's further into the regulation or controls, that's more than I 
remember.

-Wayne


On 8/30/2012 1:50 PM, Pat Horne wrote:
> I has a Schumacher charger about 15 years ago that worked fine until it
> blew the diodes. A call too the manufacturer got me a free set of
> rectifiers, I just had to pay shipping. You might see what they say.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Thusly spake David Hillman, On 8/30/2012 11:47 AM:
>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012, Dan Fest wrote:
>>> I have a fairly new schumacher SE4022 battery charger. It's a good
>>> quality
>>> one for trucks, etc. We were using it the other day and it was
>>> working fine.
>>> While in use, we heard a click and it stopped working. Is anyone
>>> familar with these ?? Does it have a circuit breaker of fuse ???? I'd
>>> like to try to fix it since it cost almost $350 last year.
>>
>> I have a different model Schumacher charger with the same problem.
>> Last year it just stopped working. I thought the same thing you are
>> thinking, but when I disassembled it, I found no such easy fixes. No
>> blown fuses. I did find a loose connection, but that wasn't the problem.
>>
>> I never did fix it, and bought a replacement ( since my original
>> lasted many years ) instead. Haven't quite brought myself to throw out
>> or recycle the broken yet, since it doesn't look like 'junk' yet ;)
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> --
>> David Hillman

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Aug 30 13:35:09 2012
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:35:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
In-Reply-To: <503FB581.5090401@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1208301241060.67458@itonami.pair.com>
	<503FA7C9.8000102@hornesystemstx.com> <503FB20F.3090608@xxiii.com>
	<503FB581.5090401@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <503FC06D.4020802@xxiii.com>

Oh, c**p. Pat corrected me, thx. I haven't bought any in a few years. 
But my recollection was the trailing 2 numbers were the amperage rating. 
eg: 1n4005 = 5amp, but it's actually tied to the voltage. Oh well. 
Digi-Key's search will get you onto the right thing.
   -Wayne

On 8/30/2012 2:48 PM, Pat Horne wrote:

> Wayne,
> 1n40xx are only rated at 1 amp, so they will be too small for this
> application. You will need diodes or a bridge rated at the minimum, the
> current output of the highest output current of the charger. They will
> also need to be on a heat sink or bolted to the chassis of the charger.
>
> Peace,
> Pat

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 30 16:58:57 2012
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (tr3driver at ca.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:58:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <503F806A.2020605@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <20120830225858.KTKII.112228.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>

---- Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote: 
> Randall, et al:
> How do you keep an old car like that going?

It turns out that the Triumph TR series is popular enough that there are replacements available for practically everything.  And they made enough cars that most things are also available used from cars that got wrecked or rusted too badly to be worth restoring.

Other cars (and old machines) are not so fortunate, of course.  There was a story on Leno's garage of how he got a "bargain" on a 1914 Premier because it had a broken water pump housing and a replacement housing was simply not available anywhere.  (The fascinating part of that story is that they were able to create a new housing using 3D printing techniques.)

But something about the old "hand" machining techniques appeals to me.  I find it really cool to both make something and then use it.  Eventually, I hope to even branch out into doing my own castings (even though 3D printing will probably make castings obsolete by then).  Weird I know, but I enjoy it.

> Would it possibly be easier to over-bore the cylinder, and fabricate a 
> matching piston & rod assy?

A possibility, I guess, but I think there would be problems.  Before it failed, the original cylinder started wearing rapidly.  The dust seal was literally full of tiny aluminum particles from the wear.  I don't really know why that happened; perhaps there was originally a thin hardened layer that I honed through or perhaps the inner surface was weakened in some way by long exposure to contaminated brake fluid.  But since I don't know why it happened, I also don't know that it wouldn't happen again.  The brass seems to offer a sure solution; and one that could be repeated if necessary.

The seal is also custom for this application.  It might be that a standard O-ring could be made to work, but I've never seen a master cylinder that didn't use a cup-shaped seal.  Seems like there must be a reason for that.  And since seals do wear out and need to be replaced, I like the idea of being able to just stuff in a new standard seal rather than have to remember what tricks I played last time.

Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Aug 30 21:55:25 2012
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:55:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <001201cd86b5$ea5d5480$bf17fd80$@ameritech.net>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
	<7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>
	<001201cd86b5$ea5d5480$bf17fd80$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3C5AC56ADF624B91825DD2138F800F5F@EntCentPC>

Good info Karl.  I'm really surprised as the only place the hydraulic
pressure is acting in only one longitudinal direction is on one end of the
sleeve and that is a miniscule area. White post would know though.  I like
their work the best for cylinders, but I like these guys 
http://www.worldwideimportautoparts.com , for lever shocks.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Vacek [mailto:kvacek at ameritech.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:47 AM
To: 'Jack Brooks'; 'Shop Talk'
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder

A few years ago I wanted to have some cylinders sleeved and I called White
Post.  When I asked why they used brass instead of stainless sleeves, they
told me that with differential expansion stainless sleeves sometimes slid
out when hot, even when assembled using the hot cylinder/cold sleeve method.
The force that makes the cylinders slide out is hydraulic pressure rather
than friction.  Probably not going to happen with a single-ended wheel
cylinder, but a master cylinder or single-ended wheel cylinder could.

I'm plating up the insides of my MGTC wheel cylinders rather than sleeving
them.  All I need to do is fill in the pitting, and the Eastwood plating kit
is doing a fine job, building up plating reasonably fast and it's easy to
smooth out.  I've just gotta have some time to finish them.
Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Brooks
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
<snip>
While I can't say for sure, I seriously doubt there is any need for
locktite, as the only load on the cylinder trying to push the sleeve out is
the friction of the seal as it slides along the tube, but that is
counteracted by the load the pressure puts radially outward into the MC.

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 30 22:58:02 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:58:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] schumacher SE4022 battery charger
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1208301241060.67458@itonami.pair.com>
References: <663FE942F4B840F3B019D460DB90C74C@Dan>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1208301241060.67458@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <00de01cd8735$33843050$0601a8c0@randall>

>     I have a different model Schumacher charger with the same 
> problem. 

FWIW, I have a smaller Schumacher charger (2/10/50 IIRC) that was given to
me after it died.  Its problem turned out to be diodes (as I think someone
already suggested).  I grabbed a diode plate out of an old dead alternator
and mounted that in place of the original diodes.

I've had to replace a few other items (circuit breaker and battery clips, it
really needs a new AC line cord); but 20 years later those old alternator
diodes are still doing the job.

-- Randall  

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 30 23:04:08 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:04:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtmNX2ue_a8kdwnecmTuDLYUU6n5yjoY-q3dfcXQVzn6dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01><7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC><503F806A.2020605@xxiii.com>
	<CALfYgtmNX2ue_a8kdwnecmTuDLYUU6n5yjoY-q3dfcXQVzn6dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00df01cd8736$0d9d2a80$0601a8c0@randall>

> I make little gears and similar for people
> http://gears.archivist.info/

Very nice, Dave!

Clock repair is another area I'd like to get into, someday.  I don't have
anything valuable yet, but there are several cuckoo clocks hanging around
here that I'd like to hear cuckoo again.  Might even teach the grandkids how
to tell time <g>

-- Randall  

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 30 23:14:42 2012
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:14:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sleeving a hydraulic clutch cylinder
In-Reply-To: <7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>
References: <20120829190250.B8DFC.91683.root@cdptpa-web19-z01>
	<7A05927A220D4306840ADA7BEA6ACF52@EntCentPC>
Message-ID: <00e001cd8737$87c94cc0$0601a8c0@randall>

Thanks for the thoughts, Jack.

> but like you (I
> suspect) I carry a good one in the boot at all times

Actually, I don't.  In over 30 years and 300,000 miles in a succession of
TR3s, this is the first time I have ever had a sudden MC failure.  And even
this time it wasn't really all that sudden, I just happened to look down and
see the puddle of DOT 5 on the floor mat before I drove to work.  The clutch
still worked.

-- Randall