From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Sep 2 15:58:11 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 17:58:11 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> On 8/31/2011 12:55 AM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Paraphased: how to drill hole through soil for a pipe. When running irrigation under an existing side walk the use water to "drill" under the sidewalk. I've NEVER done this but understand the process. To run a pipe under the sidewalk you dig a trench long enough and at the same depth to hold the pipe. Lay the pipe in the trench and begin GENTLY hammering it underneath the side walk. The trick is to run a garden hose, or even better a pressure washer hose, inside the pipe to wash away the soil. The pressure from the water digs out the soil just ahead of the pipe and softens the soil so you can drive it in easier. Peter T. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 2 17:30:53 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 16:30:53 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> > The trick is to > run > a garden hose, or even better a pressure washer hose, inside the pipe > to > wash away the soil. The pressure from the water digs out the soil just > ahead of the pipe and softens the soil so you can drive it in easier. Exactly the process I was trying to describe, but your description is much better. -- Randall From strovato at optonline.net Fri Sep 2 18:28:50 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 20:28:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0LQX00JPP83F9NH0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> That procedure works great when trying to cross a four foot wide walkway. But he wants to go 40 feet! Professionals can drill under an interstate highway and come out the other side. But for a homeowner project, I think 40 feet is way too ambitious. Of course, I live in a very rocky area. Those old time farmers didn't build all those charming stone walls for fun. They had to get those rocks out of the field and put them somewhere. So if you live in a wonderful place with soil like chocolate pudding then give it a shot. Then tell us about your success so I can be extremely jealous. -Steve Trovato Putnam Valley, NY At 05:58 PM 9/2/2011, Peter J. Thomas wrote: >On 8/31/2011 12:55 AM, Brian Kemp wrote: > >>Paraphased: how to drill hole through soil for a pipe. > >When running irrigation under an existing side walk the use water to >"drill" under the sidewalk. I've NEVER done this but understand the >process. To run a pipe under the sidewalk you dig a trench long >enough and at the same depth to hold the pipe. Lay the pipe in the >trench and begin GENTLY hammering it underneath the side walk. The >trick is to run a garden hose, or even better a pressure washer >hose, inside the pipe to wash away the soil. The pressure from the >water digs out the soil just ahead of the pipe and softens the soil >so you can drive it in easier. > >Peter T. From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Sep 2 18:47:06 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 20:47:06 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> On 9/2/2011 7:30 PM, Randall wrote: >> The trick is to >> run >> a garden hose, or even better a pressure washer hose, inside the pipe >> to >> wash away the soil. The pressure from the water digs out the soil just >> ahead of the pipe and softens the soil so you can drive it in easier. > Exactly the process I was trying to describe, but your description is much > better. Oops, just reread you reply. Catching up on email after Irene and I guess brain went numb. > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From eltonclark at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 22:34:01 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 23:34:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> <4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> Message-ID: * Hmmm! Interesting! Using 4" plastic pipe for "drill-stem" with manual "wrenching" wouldn't be able to overcome the friction: each 10' section would have 120 square feet of surface area rotating in a dirt bore: that would take serious torque; more than the plastic could stand. I'm thinking "hydraulic mining" a 4" hole would take a 4" hose or pipe and firetruck pumping power and a "million" gallons of water to do anything effective. A 2-man gasoline powered posthole digger with a 4" auger and a lot of 3 foot extensions would be almost workable but a rock or root would jam it or a joint would fail at some depth and you'd end up just giving the whole string a decent burial! I bleeeeeeve I'd gutter or channel the flow to one side or the other of the yard where the the disturbance wouldn't be so unsightly and I'd use a trencher to bury the plastic. Things get very simple when one doesn't know ALL the facts! (forgive my musings) Tony in Texas * From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Sep 3 07:11:23 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 09:11:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net><4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com><4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CA3126C96F04E56AD1716381CF9CF2E@EricJRussellPC> Would a 'Ditch Witch' type of tool work? I see they show a 'directional drill'. http://www.ditchwitch.com/trenchless/directional-drills/ Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From arvidj at visi.com Sat Sep 3 08:27:18 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 09:27:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4CA3126C96F04E56AD1716381CF9CF2E@EricJRussellPC> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net><4E615173.30600@comcast.net><003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com><4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> <4CA3126C96F04E56AD1716381CF9CF2E@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <409D7D91379F4A809055113491FE82C6@HP62011> I thought there were accessibility constraints ... like stairs, etc., ... but I can not find the email that describes it. -----Original Message----- From: Eric J Russell Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 8:11 AM To: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? Would a 'Ditch Witch' type of tool work? I see they show a 'directional drill'. http://www.ditchwitch.com/trenchless/directional-drills/ Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From bk13 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 3 10:29:28 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 09:29:28 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> <4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> Thanks to all that have replied. Having a house with an unobstructable view comes with certain challenges. I'd love to have something like the Ditch Witch come in, but it would either have to climb a significant slope or be carried down 32 inch wide stairs. This same slope eliminates a powered trencher as the lower portion is too steep to walk. The current drainage for the property puts the flow of water at about the same place I want to run the drain line. This is a corner of the house that has a settling problem, so I'm after a permanent solution to help move the water out of the area. This area is the only safe access from the front of the house to the back, so it has to be underground so it is kid safe. It is also only 6 feet between the house and top of the hill section, so there isn't significant distance to redirect the water to another area. I was thinking that if I could 'hole saw' through the dry dirt with a cutter slightly bigger than the pipe, friction might be manageable. I've used water as a drill in the past, so if dry doesn't work, I'll put a power nozzle on the end of 3/4 inch pvc and run that down the center of the 4 inch drain pipe and see if I get further. My goal will to get as far a possible by drilling so I minimize disturbing the top of the hill. 10 feet means I don't mess with the top lip of the hill or ground cover, so I have minimal erosion problems with the Los Angeles rainy season. If I can make it 20 feet, even better. For anyone doing this type of work by hand, a trenching shovel is a great investment. It is about half the with of a standard shovel, so you only move half the dirt. It is also longer, so you can go deeper while keeping the trench narrow. Brian in Los Angeles On 9/2/2011 9:34 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > * > > Hmmm! Interesting! > > Using 4" plastic pipe for "drill-stem" with manual "wrenching" wouldn't be > able to > overcome the friction: each 10' section would have 120 square feet of > surface area rotating in a dirt bore: that would take serious torque; more > than the plastic could stand. > > I'm thinking "hydraulic mining" a 4" hole > would take a 4" hose or pipe and firetruck pumping power and a "million" > gallons of water to do anything effective. > > A 2-man gasoline powered posthole digger > with a 4" auger and a lot of 3 foot extensions > would be almost workable but a rock or root > would jam it or a joint would fail at some depth and you'd end up just > giving the whole string a decent burial! > > I bleeeeeeve I'd gutter or channel the flow to one side or the other of the > yard where the the disturbance wouldn't be so unsightly and I'd use a > trencher to bury the plastic. > > Things get very simple when one doesn't know ALL the facts! (forgive my > musings) > Tony in Texas > * > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Sep 3 11:42:34 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 13:42:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net><4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com><4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0F41BC72AF4B4C0F8348AF79C81899A9@EricJRussellPC> Perhaps you could compromise and dig a series of holes (say 10' apart) and try 'drilling' from one to the next. That might help keep the 'drill' aligned in both the vertical & horizontal planes. When we had some septic tank work done at our former residence in Massachusetts, the contractor did use a 'water drill' to run a 4" pipe under the driveway. He dug a hole on either side of the driveway and shoved the pipe under the driveway (~ 10'). I confess I didn't study what he did (plus it was 12-13 years ago...) but I do recall he used a garden hose and sort of forced the pipe through letting the water wash the dirt/mud back through the pipe. So, I would think you might want to start at the bottom of the hill and work upwards? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From robolane at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 3 12:00:45 2011 From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (Robert Lane) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 13:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill Message-ID: <021c01cc6a63$675e6d90$361b48b0$@sbcglobal.net> If you really want to use a trencher, what about using some kind of winch to pull it up the hill as it cuts? Might fix a sled with some kind of support for the operator to hook behind the trencher (or a cart). Just an idea, where this is a will there is a way. From strovato at optonline.net Sat Sep 3 13:50:02 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 15:50:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> <4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0LQY002P1PSXQCB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Brian, How about hiring a couple of day laborers to dig? When I put an addition on our house, the guy with the excavator didn't show up. Mason showed up with a bunch of guys with shovels. They did the whole thing by hand and probably cost less than the guy with the machine. I know that doesn't answer your concerns about disturbing the ground cover, but you can always plant more. I'm all for clever solutions, but don't underestimate a couple of strong guys with shovels. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 12:29 PM 9/3/2011, Brian Kemp wrote: >Thanks to all that have replied. Having a house with an >unobstructable view comes with certain challenges. > >I'd love to have something like the Ditch Witch come in, but it >would either have to climb a significant slope or be carried down 32 >inch wide stairs. This same slope eliminates a powered trencher as >the lower portion is too steep to walk. > >The current drainage for the property puts the flow of water at >about the same place I want to run the drain line. This is a corner >of the house that has a settling problem, so I'm after a permanent >solution to help move the water out of the area. > >This area is the only safe access from the front of the house to the >back, so it has to be underground so it is kid safe. It is also >only 6 feet between the house and top of the hill section, so there >isn't significant distance to redirect the water to another area. > >I was thinking that if I could 'hole saw' through the dry dirt with >a cutter slightly bigger than the pipe, friction might be manageable. > >I've used water as a drill in the past, so if dry doesn't work, I'll >put a power nozzle on the end of 3/4 inch pvc and run that down the >center of the 4 inch drain pipe and see if I get further. > >My goal will to get as far a possible by drilling so I minimize >disturbing the top of the hill. 10 feet means I don't mess with >the top lip of the hill or ground cover, so I have minimal erosion >problems with the Los Angeles rainy season. If I can make it 20 >feet, even better. > >For anyone doing this type of work by hand, a trenching shovel is a >great investment. It is about half the with of a standard shovel, >so you only move half the dirt. It is also longer, so you can go >deeper while keeping the trench narrow. > >Brian in Los Angeles From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 14:16:44 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 15:16:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <0F41BC72AF4B4C0F8348AF79C81899A9@EricJRussellPC> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> <4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> <0F41BC72AF4B4C0F8348AF79C81899A9@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: * Here you go: http://www.groundhoginc.com/productview.php?iProductID=7 Find your local dealer; ask who has them for rent or who does custom work. I'd tether to an anchor on top and get a heavy duty buddy to "belay" the operator/trencher down the slope . . * From nick at landform.co.uk Sat Sep 3 17:08:42 2011 From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 00:08:42 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tunneling drain pipe down a hill? In-Reply-To: <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> References: <4E5DBECB.3090108@earthlink.net> <4E615173.30600@comcast.net> <003901cc69c8$5bd5dda0$138198e0$@rr.com> <4E61790A.80605@comcast.net> <4E6255E8.30308@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4E62B37A.2010300@landform.co.uk> On 03/09/2011 17:29, Brian Kemp wrote: > Thanks to all that have replied. Having a house with an > unobstructable view comes with certain challenges. > Brian If you're set on the boring method you could do worse than find an LA version of these people: http://www.basementslondon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=7 Mini piling rigs are very versatile and can be fitted into restricted areas. The piling case could be used as a duct for a pipe or even a drain itself, subject to approval by someone who actually has firsthand knowledge. They can also be aimed with reasonable certainty of arrival. What Tony said about friction and possible obstacles says it all about manual operations. Good luck. Nick Brearley From eric at megageek.com Mon Sep 5 20:23:13 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 22:23:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Streamlight Batteries Message-ID: Ok, I have a Streamlight 20XP flashlight that I love. The batteries are dead. Here is a link to the replacement ones... What I want to know is, should I get these batteries, should I go directly to Streamlight, or is there a cheaper/better option? Thanks in advance. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Mon Sep 5 20:58:12 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 21:58:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Streamlight Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E658C44.8060008@tx.rr.com> The battery at that link looks like a generic model, not Streamlight brand which seems to be much higher, so this might be the cheaper option. I'm not sure about the exact cells you need but you might be able to buy replacement cells at RadioShack and put them together yourself. Or if you have a Batteries+ store nearby they would build a battery for you. I don't know what the cost would be though. > Ok, I have a Streamlight 20XP flashlight that I love. The batteries are > dead. Here is a link to the replacement ones... > > > > What I want to know is, should I get these batteries, should I go directly > to Streamlight, or is there a cheaper/better option? > > Thanks in advance. > > Eric P > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3878 - Release Date: 09/05/11 01:35:00 From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Mon Sep 5 22:08:38 2011 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 00:08:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Streamlight Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110906040838.GA27483@sackheads.org> On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 10:23:13PM -0400, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Ok, I have a Streamlight 20XP flashlight that I love. The batteries are > dead. Here is a link to the replacement ones... > According to streamlight.com, the 20XP uses sub-C NiCd batteries. SubC NiCd cells are readily available from various vendors online so it's not difficult to rebuild the pack yourself. Your OEM battery pack probably used solder tab cells but you might want to disassemble to make sure. A couple comments: 1) Streamlight claims the OEM pack is NiCd. NiCd sub-C batteries are typically rated around 1500 mAh. It might be worthwhile to try switching to NiMH. A sub-C NiMH should be able to handle the 1.3A current draw of your lightbulb and will roughly double your runtime. This assumes, of course, that your charger can handle NiMH. 2) FWIW, the XP20 is rated at 145lm for 1.5hr. While that's nothing to sneeze at, you might consider upgrading to an LED-based flashlight. You can have greater light output in a pocketable light (the 2xAA-based Fenix LD20 is rated at 180lm for 2.25hr). If you need a tactical light, there are lots of options in the 800lm range. Some of these even use AA batteries. Going further, there are several multi-LED flashlights out there that are rated upwards of 2000lm though if you need something that bright an HID-based light might serve you better. Anyway, just a thought... JM From strovato at optonline.net Wed Sep 7 16:30:16 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:30:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine pull cord replacement In-Reply-To: <20110906040838.GA27483@sackheads.org> References: <20110906040838.GA27483@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <0LR600ARXBW6USH0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> The pull cord on my generator broke during the Hurricane Irene power failure. I rummaged through my box of rope and string and found some synthetic "multi-purpose" cord. It actually looks very much like the original, except that the original was black and this is white. I replaced the cord with this and so far, it seems to be working just fine. Actually, considering how infrequently the generator is used, the original didn't provide a very impressive length of service. Anyway, the question is, what do you guys use for replacement pull cord? Is there "official" pull cord that is more durable than the stuff I used? Thanks. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 17:56:13 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:56:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine pull cord replacement In-Reply-To: <0LR600ARXBW6USH0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20110906040838.GA27483@sackheads.org> <0LR600ARXBW6USH0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Anyway, the question is, what do you guys use for replacement pull cord? Is > there "official" pull cord that is more durable than the stuff I used? I've always used an appropriate size of regular nylon rope. 1/4" or 3/16", whatever I have on hand. There is "official" rope, but I don't know that there's anything different about it. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. Tying myself in knots for over five decades... From pethier at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 19:53:40 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 01:53:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine pull cord replacement In-Reply-To: <0LR600ARXBW6USH0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1870548920.1063597.1315446820957.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> When I was a kid they were all clothesline. Stop should work. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://www.mnautox.com From bobkegel at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 20:05:54 2011 From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:05:54 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Streamlight Batteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <149377BD74314317BB9A08905C096953@robertve2wc7wm> If you have a 20XP - polymer body, incandescent bulb and NO LEDs - the correct battery is part # 25170. http://www.opticsplanet.net/streamlight-sl-20xp-rechargeable-battery-25170.h tml Bob K From strovato at optonline.net Wed Sep 7 20:46:53 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 22:46:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine pull cord replacement References: <0LR600ARXBW6USH0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0LR600GMNNQXAUJ0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have an old generator that uses what is essentially clothesline. You hook a knot in the line into a notch, and then wind it around a couple of times. Then you pull. Repeat until it starts. It takes maybe ten seconds per attempt, versus around two seconds with the self winding kind. At 09:53 PM 9/7/2011, pethier at comcast.net wrote: >When I was a kid they were all clothesline. Stop should work. From coles at colesnurseries.com Sat Sep 10 18:09:17 2011 From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan Fest) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:09:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement Message-ID: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement has about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that aren't as water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never had trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out ?? It isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? Thanks, Dan From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sat Sep 10 18:41:55 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 19:41:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> Message-ID: <4E6C03D3.20103@tx.rr.com> My shop vac came with an attachment with a squeegee built in I assume for picking up water. Of course you could always just sweep the water to one spot and pick it up with a shop vac. > We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement has > about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that aren't as > water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never had > trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out ?? It > isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? From jibjib at att.net Sat Sep 10 18:54:13 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:54:13 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> Message-ID: <924E4130D80840FD90780B78A6261DF6@EntCent> If you have a sump to put a hose end into, siphon it. I had success siphoning 16 inches out of my basement with two garden hoses (in parallel) when hurricane Floyd hit NJ. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dan Fest Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 5:09 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement has about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that aren't as water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never had trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out ?? It isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? Thanks, Dan _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Sep 10 19:36:57 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:36:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement Message-ID: <20110910213657.3mmdx3hrjeo000gg@webmail2.centurytel.net> Quoting Dan Fest : > How do we get the water out ?? It > isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. A floor pump will take it down to ~ 1/8". It needs more to get started (an inch deep should be plenty.) Then finish with a wet vac (shop vac). http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetdepot/ProductDetail.asp?Product=28773&AffiliateID=SingleFeed&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=pricegrabber Eric Russell Mebane, NC From strovato at optonline.net Sat Sep 10 19:38:05 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:38:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <4E6C03D3.20103@tx.rr.com> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> <4E6C03D3.20103@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <0LRC00J2W4M7D6F0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I'll add my vote for the shop vac. With mine, you're supposed to remove the filter when you are using it for water. Keep in mind that a shop vac full of water is very heavy. It's great if there's a way to roll it somewhere to empty it. It's not so great if the only way out is up a long flight of stairs. In that case, you might want to use a pump to empty it out. Just figure out the strategy ahead of time. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 08:41 PM 9/10/2011, BJNoSHOV8 wrote: >My shop vac came with an attachment with a squeegee built in I >assume for picking up water. Of course you could always just sweep >the water to one spot and pick it up with a shop vac. From nases at verizon.net Sat Sep 10 19:40:25 2011 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:40:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> Message-ID: <39FC1D77-321E-4C2D-B345-2096D97D7A9A@verizon.net> We had somewhat less than an inch but soaked into our carpets in the basement. We vacuumed it out. I want to use something on that floor other than carpets. I've heard from a flooring guy that the only thing to cover it completely that won't allow water under it is ceramic tile. I really don't want to spend that much money. Any suggestions on what to put on concrete to dress it up? I cleaned scrubbed sanded and etched my garage floor before putting down epoxy paint and it still lifted at places. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ On Sep 10, 2011, at 8:09 PM, "Dan Fest" wrote: > We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement has > about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that aren't as > water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never had > trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out ?? It > isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? > Thanks, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/nases at verizon.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 20:06:29 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:06:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <4E6C03D3.20103@tx.rr.com> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> <4E6C03D3.20103@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7526022C-1FD5-4B5A-B02C-316ECD4A161C@gmail.com> On Sep 10, 2011, at 7:41 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > My shop vac came with an attachment with a squeegee built in I > assume for picking up water. Of course you could always just sweep > the water to one spot and pick it up with a shop vac. Yep. If you've really got an inch, this will suck pretty well. I'd also ee of you can find a floor squuegee. It's a bit of foam rubber on stick, very useful for drying concrete floors. If they're smooth, you can get thefloor pretty close to dry with one. As you suck w/ the shoo vac, get some to sweeptoyou. > >> We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our >> obasement has >> about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that >> aren't as >> water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never >> had >> trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water >> out ?? It >> isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com From jibjib at att.net Sat Sep 10 20:26:31 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 19:26:31 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <924E4130D80840FD90780B78A6261DF6@EntCent> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> <924E4130D80840FD90780B78A6261DF6@EntCent> Message-ID: Yup, vacuuming is a better suggestion than siphoning. We didn't have power for 5 days when we flooded . . . . . . . -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack Brooks Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 5:54 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water in basement If you have a sump to put a hose end into, siphon it. I had success siphoning 16 inches out of my basement with two garden hoses (in parallel) when hurricane Floyd hit NJ. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dan Fest Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 5:09 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement has about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that aren't as water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never had trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out ?? It isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? Thanks, Dan _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From kennedybc at comcast.net Sun Sep 11 06:44:56 2011 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:44:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <39FC1D77-321E-4C2D-B345-2096D97D7A9A@verizon.net> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> <39FC1D77-321E-4C2D-B345-2096D97D7A9A@verizon.net> Message-ID: Phil, we have a cottage that floods frequently. We put down commercial tile in '04 and it's flooded 4 times since then. No problem so far. Brian K On Sep 10, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Phil Nase wrote: > We had somewhat less than an inch but soaked into our carpets in the basement. > We vacuumed it out. > > I want to use something on that floor other than carpets. I've heard from a > flooring guy that the only thing to cover it completely that won't allow water > under it is ceramic tile. I really don't want to spend that much money. > > Any suggestions on what to put on concrete to dress it up? I cleaned scrubbed > sanded and etched my garage floor before putting down epoxy paint and it still > lifted at places. > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ > > On Sep 10, 2011, at 8:09 PM, "Dan Fest" wrote: > >> We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement has >> about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that aren't as >> water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never had >> trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out ?? It >> isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? >> Thanks, >> Dan >> ____ From pj_thomas at comcast.net Sun Sep 11 16:25:03 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:25:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> References: <0EDD014DF4E34BC39741A92E48D0B8B7@Dan> Message-ID: <4E6D353F.6040806@comcast.net> On 9/10/2011 8:09 PM, Dan Fest wrote: > We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement has > about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that aren't as > water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never had > trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out ?? It > isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? > Thanks, > Dan Like others have said, shop vac. I'd like to add: HD and I'm sure other such places sell mini vacs that fit on top of a 5 gallon bucket for about $20. Get one of these and 4 buckets. One person vacuums and when two buckets are full another person carries them out, one in each hand. Carrying two five gallon buckets, 50 lbs apiece, out of a basement will be a lot easier than a full shop vac. Also should be faster with one person vacuuming while the other totes. Peter T. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From tputland at charter.net Mon Sep 12 06:46:28 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement Message-ID: <6cb4446c.1da43d.1325daca7a7.Webtop.46@charter.net> I tried to deal with this exact situation with a shop vac about 15 years ago. It is very hard work. Be forewarned, if you are the one going up the stairs carrying the buckets, it would be best if you are in decent shape ( as I was ) and regardless of how fit you are, you will still be sore the next day. But the most important piece of information I can pass along that may seem obvious but really isn't (wasn't to me then): make sure the water is done coming in before you start to remove the water a bucket at a time. Don't ask me how I know. I ended up pumping it out with a pump my neither had made that only needed about an inch of water to be able to do its job. Good luck! Tim On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > On 9/10/2011 8:09 PM, Dan Fest wrote: >> We've gotten hammered with rain over the last few days. Our basement >> has >> about 1 inch of water in it. It came in through the walls that >> aren't as >> water tight as the floor which is waterproof concrete. We've never >> had >> trouble before. My questions is this. How do we get the water out >> ?? It >> isn't enough for most pumps that I am familar with. Any ideas ?? >> Thanks, >> Dan > > Like others have said, shop vac. I'd like to add: HD and I'm sure > other such places sell mini vacs that fit on top of a 5 gallon bucket > for about $20. Get one of these and 4 buckets. One person vacuums > and when two buckets are full another person carries them out, one in > each hand. Carrying two five gallon buckets, 50 lbs apiece, out of a > basement will be a lot easier than a full shop vac. Also should be > faster with one person vacuuming while the other totes. > > Peter T. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Sep 12 11:48:06 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 10:48:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <6cb4446c.1da43d.1325daca7a7.Webtop.46@charter.net> References: <6cb4446c.1da43d.1325daca7a7.Webtop.46@charter.net> Message-ID: <0f4e01cc7174$21aad2d0$65007870$@rr.com> > I ended up pumping it out with a pump my neither had made that only > needed about an inch of water to be able to do its job. Which was going to be my suggestion in the first place. Once the pump gets the whole floor down as low as it can, then you can drop the pump into a bucket and empty your shop vac into the bucket. Depending on how big a rush you are in (and whether you have a 12vdc supply handy), there are marine bilge pumps available for under $30 that will pump down to 1/4" or less. Even one of those cheap drill-powered things would be better than trying to lug all that water up steps! -- Randall From peterwmurray at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 14:12:57 2011 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 16:12:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <0f4e01cc7174$21aad2d0$65007870$@rr.com> References: <6cb4446c.1da43d.1325daca7a7.Webtop.46@charter.net> <0f4e01cc7174$21aad2d0$65007870$@rr.com> Message-ID: My Shop-Vac has the ability to not only suck up the water, but you can switch an attachment and it will pump it out a hose as well, so no hefting needed. Unfortunately, mine can't do both at the same time, though it appears they now have some that do: http://www.shopvac.com/wet-dry-vacs/default.aspx?feature=12&featureName=Water+Pump -Peter From jibjib at att.net Mon Sep 12 17:58:46 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 16:58:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <0f4e01cc7174$21aad2d0$65007870$@rr.com> References: <6cb4446c.1da43d.1325daca7a7.Webtop.46@charter.net> <0f4e01cc7174$21aad2d0$65007870$@rr.com> Message-ID: <654A38AA301147858A405DBB4DEF5FA4@EntCent> >Even one of those cheap drill-powered things would be >better than trying to lug all that water up steps! Which is why I used a siphon to empty 16 inches out of my basement. I lived on a hill, so it was possible. Jack From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Sep 12 18:50:39 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:50:39 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] water in basement In-Reply-To: <654A38AA301147858A405DBB4DEF5FA4@EntCent> References: <6cb4446c.1da43d.1325daca7a7.Webtop.46@charter.net> <0f4e01cc7174$21aad2d0$65007870$@rr.com> <654A38AA301147858A405DBB4DEF5FA4@EntCent> Message-ID: Couldn't you run a pipe sloped downwards from the low point of your basement until it reached the surface somewhere down the hillside? Then your basement would be self-draining! Doug On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Jack Brooks wrote: >>Even one of those cheap drill-powered things would be >>better than trying to lug all that water up steps! > > Which is why I used a siphon to empty 16 inches out of my basement. I lived > on a hill, so it was possible. > > Jack From tputland at charter.net Wed Sep 14 07:30:26 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water Message-ID: I have "city" water in the village I live it. It has always been great water for over ten years in the last two places we have lived. (It had better be for the $80 a month average I pay for water, fire and (mostly) sewer service.) In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole house through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed water filtration system for drinking. Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from public works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I wanted to get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. I have, for now, a Richmond electric water heater that was there when we bought the place. It has a mfg date listed as 2004 so not crazy old. I have a new anode rod to install but did not see an easy way to install it as I cannot see a nut to put a wrench on. I need to look online to figure out how to replace the rod. Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple as finally needing to replace the rod? Thanks! Tim From jblair1948 at cox.net Wed Sep 14 09:58:52 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:58:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110914115442.04dd4a30@cox.net> At 09:30 AM 9/14/2011, Tim wrote: >Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple as >finally needing to replace the rod? Tim, For starters, lets start with the obvious. Have you checked with any of the neighbors? Is there water smelling funny? Where I live there are 3 citys that border each other. However, one has problems with their water supply all the time, especially in the summer. So it's possible that it's from the city. Have you called the city? The should be able to come out and test your water for you. Do you have a pool supply store near you? Many times they'll check your water for you also. I don't think the anode disolving will cause the metal smell. I've never had that here. I've had to replace my hot water 2 times in the last 25 yrs. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From pj_thomas at comcast.net Wed Sep 14 10:16:16 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:16:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E70D350.20902@comcast.net> On 9/14/2011 9:30 AM, Tim wrote: > In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole house > through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed water > filtration system for drinking. > > Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from public > works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I wanted to > get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water > coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. > > > Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple as > finally needing to replace the rod? Since the PO put the softener in, he must have had a reason. I have one to remove iron/manganese. I'm guessing someone either bypassed it or it needs salt/regen. Peter T. From tputland at charter.net Wed Sep 14 10:27:46 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water Message-ID: <3ff475fd.88ef.13268c3f7e5.Webtop.45@charter.net> We've been in this house for over five years now and in the village proper for well over ten (good city water that is not high in iron, etc). The softener has plenty of salt and works fine and shouldn't need to regen. Is there any chance this is from the anode rod being gone and the inside of the tank starting to rust? Thanks On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > On 9/14/2011 9:30 AM, Tim wrote: >> In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole >> house >> through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed >> water >> filtration system for drinking. >> >> Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from >> public >> works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I wanted >> to >> get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water >> coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. >> >> >> Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple >> as >> finally needing to replace the rod? > > Since the PO put the softener in, he must have had a reason. I have > one to remove iron/manganese. I'm guessing someone either bypassed it > or it needs salt/regen. > > Peter T. From strovato at optonline.net Wed Sep 14 11:16:13 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:16:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LRI005F5VZF3270@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Tim, Are you saying that the metallic smell is only from the hot water? I can't see how anything in the water heater could effect the cold water. Actually, I don't think it's very likely that the anode rod would cause this symptom even in the hot water. The rod should have been gradually eroding over the last seven years. I can't see why it would be different now. Have you asked your neighbors if they have noticed anything? It would seem more likely to me that it is something outside your home causing it. You could also make an inquiry with the water department. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 09:30 AM 9/14/2011, Tim wrote: >I have "city" water in the village I live it. It has always been great >water for over ten years in the last two places we have lived. (It had >better be for the $80 a month average I pay for water, fire and (mostly) >sewer service.) > >In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole house >through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed water >filtration system for drinking. > >Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from public >works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I wanted to >get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water >coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. > >I have, for now, a Richmond electric water heater that was there when we >bought the place. It has a mfg date listed as 2004 so not crazy old. I >have a new anode rod to install but did not see an easy way to install >it as I cannot see a nut to put a wrench on. I need to look online to >figure out how to replace the rod. > >Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple as >finally needing to replace the rod? > >Thanks! > >Tim >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net From tputland at charter.net Wed Sep 14 11:27:03 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water Message-ID: <27f2d418.9628.13268fa3e8e.Webtop.45@charter.net> As far as I can smell, it is just the hot water. I notice it when turning it on to get hot water for a shower. I will check the cold when I get home. I wasnbt wondering if the anode rod might cause this smell, I was wondering IF the anode rod has dissolved, might the tank be starting to rust and thus causing the smell? I wanted to check with this collective of smarts before calling the idiots at public worx. I didnbt think to ask my neighbors. I will do that as well. Thanks On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Tim, > > Are you saying that the metallic smell is only from the hot water? I > can't see how anything in the water heater could effect the cold > water. Actually, I don't think it's very likely that the anode rod > would cause this symptom even in the hot water. The rod should have > been gradually eroding over the last seven years. I can't see why it > would be different now. Have you asked your neighbors if they have > noticed anything? It would seem more likely to me that it is > something outside your home causing it. You could also make an > inquiry with the water department. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 09:30 AM 9/14/2011, Tim wrote: >> I have "city" water in the village I live it. It has always been >> great >> water for over ten years in the last two places we have lived. (It >> had >> better be for the $80 a month average I pay for water, fire and >> (mostly) >> sewer service.) >> >> In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole >> house >> through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed >> water >> filtration system for drinking. >> >> Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from >> public >> works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I wanted >> to >> get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water >> coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. >> >> I have, for now, a Richmond electric water heater that was there when >> we >> bought the place. It has a mfg date listed as 2004 so not crazy old. >> I >> have a new anode rod to install but did not see an easy way to >> install >> it as I cannot see a nut to put a wrench on. I need to look online to >> figure out how to replace the rod. >> >> Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple >> as >> finally needing to replace the rod? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Wed Sep 14 12:12:47 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:12:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water In-Reply-To: <3ff475fd.88ef.13268c3f7e5.Webtop.45@charter.net> References: <3ff475fd.88ef.13268c3f7e5.Webtop.45@charter.net> Message-ID: <4E70EE9F.3070509@comcast.net> On 9/14/2011 12:27 PM, Tim wrote: > We've been in this house for over five years now and in the village > proper for well over ten (good city water that is not high in iron, > etc). The softener has plenty of salt and works fine and shouldn't > need to regen. But is it bypassed? > > Is there any chance this is from the anode rod being gone and the > inside of the tank starting to rust? That's a possibility. Maybe that the anode is gone and the meter change are a coincidence. Good check is to compare hot and cold water. Fill two glasses, one hot, one cold and let sit to reach room temperature. If both smell like metal, may not be the anode since the cold water does not go through the heater. Peter T. > > Thanks > > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > >> On 9/14/2011 9:30 AM, Tim wrote: >>> In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole house >>> through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed >>> water >>> filtration system for drinking. >>> >>> Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from public >>> works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I >>> wanted to >>> get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water >>> coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. >>> >>> >>> Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple as >>> finally needing to replace the rod? >> >> Since the PO put the softener in, he must have had a reason. I have >> one to remove iron/manganese. I'm guessing someone either bypassed >> it or it needs salt/regen. >> >> Peter T. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From strovato at optonline.net Wed Sep 14 13:25:36 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:25:36 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water In-Reply-To: <27f2d418.9628.13268fa3e8e.Webtop.45@charter.net> References: <27f2d418.9628.13268fa3e8e.Webtop.45@charter.net> Message-ID: <0LRJ003SV20AQMA0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I can tell you that I have replaced my water heater a couple of times when it leaked. It corroded enough to perforate, and I never smelled anything metallic. I have heard that water softeners may accelerate the dissolving of the anode. I have also heard that acidic water increases the corrosion of plumbing and can cause a metallic smell/taste. Would be interesting to know the pH of the water. The only reference I've seen to anode rods and smells is when it's a rotten egg smell. Then they talk about replacing a magnesium anode with a different metal. Let us know what you find. -Steve At 01:27 PM 9/14/2011, Tim wrote: >As far as I can smell, it is just the hot water. I notice it when >turning it on to get hot water for a shower. I will check the cold when >I get home. > >I wasnbt wondering if the anode rod might cause this smell, I was >wondering IF the anode rod has dissolved, might the tank be starting to >rust and thus causing the smell? > >I wanted to check with this collective of smarts before calling the >idiots at public worx. > >I didnbt think to ask my neighbors. I will do that as well. > >Thanks > > > >On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > >>Tim, >> >>Are you saying that the metallic smell is only from the hot water? I >>can't see how anything in the water heater could effect the cold >>water. Actually, I don't think it's very likely that the anode rod >>would cause this symptom even in the hot water. The rod should have >>been gradually eroding over the last seven years. I can't see why it >>would be different now. Have you asked your neighbors if they have >>noticed anything? It would seem more likely to me that it is >>something outside your home causing it. You could also make an >>inquiry with the water department. >> >>-Steve Trovato >>strovato at optonline.net >> >>At 09:30 AM 9/14/2011, Tim wrote: >>>I have "city" water in the village I live it. It has always been >>>great >>>water for over ten years in the last two places we have lived. (It >>>had >>>better be for the $80 a month average I pay for water, fire and >>>(mostly) >>>sewer service.) >>> >>>In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole >>>house >>>through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed >>>water >>>filtration system for drinking. >>> >>>Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from >>>public >>>works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I wanted >>>to >>>get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water >>>coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. >>> >>>I have, for now, a Richmond electric water heater that was there when >>>we >>>bought the place. It has a mfg date listed as 2004 so not crazy old. >>>I >>>have a new anode rod to install but did not see an easy way to >>>install >>>it as I cannot see a nut to put a wrench on. I need to look online to >>>figure out how to replace the rod. >>> >>>Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple >>>as >>>finally needing to replace the rod? >>> >>>Thanks! >>> >>>Tim >>>_______________________________________________ >>> >>>Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>>Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >>>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >>>Unsubscribe/Manage: >>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net From strovato at optonline.net Wed Sep 14 13:36:12 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:36:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water Message-ID: <0LRJ00KYW2GQG390@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Tim, I just thought of another thing. Where do you live? Here in New York we've just been through Tropical Storm Irene and the remnants of Lee. There has been a ton of flooding and power outages. These kinds of things can have an effect on the water supply. If you live somewhere that has had extreme weather, you might just want to wait a bit until everything settles down. Where does your water come from? Wells? Reservoir? -Steve From tputland at charter.net Wed Sep 14 13:47:30 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water Message-ID: <70a8b496.b1f5.132697ad6e9.Webtop.45@charter.net> Well, I am in southern WI and we have good "city" water in the village I live in so I doubt this is it as we were not affected at all by the tropical storms. Thankfully!! On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Tim, > > I just thought of another thing. Where do you live? Here in New York > we've just been through Tropical Storm Irene and the remnants of Lee. > There has been a ton of flooding and power outages. These kinds of > things can have an effect on the water supply. If you live somewhere > that has had extreme weather, you might just want to wait a bit until > everything settles down. Where does your water come from? Wells? > Reservoir? > > -Steve From eric at megageek.com Wed Sep 14 19:05:34 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:05:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] O2 Sensors Message-ID: OK, car is a 2003 Toyota MR Spider. The "Check Engine" light came on, again, for the 2nd O2 sensor. (This will be the 4th one on the car with less than 110K miles on it.) Each time, its the same O2 sensor (the one at the end of exhaust system) First, what could cause this car to constantly kill the same O2 sensor but not the one 'upstream' from it? Second, could any additional damage occur from not fixing it right away? (We plan to write to Toyota to have them give us an answer since the first 3 times this car was under warrantee.) Thanks in advance! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Wed Sep 14 19:43:19 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:43:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] New 'blue' Stabul Message-ID: I know we talked about this before, but we didn't get an answer, and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with it by now. The new 'blue' stabul (the one with "enzymes" in it) does it work with the new ethanol fuels? These fuels are killing everyone's small engines and I was wondering if anyone knew if that additive can help. Thanks in advance. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From jblair1948 at cox.net Thu Sep 15 05:45:35 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:45:35 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] O2 Sensors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110915073445.04e550b8@cox.net> At 09:05 PM 9/14/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: >OK, car is a 2003 Toyota MR Spider. The "Check Engine" light came on, again, for the 2nd O2 >sensor. (This will be the 4th one on the car with less than 110K miles on it.) Each time, its the >same O2 sensor (the one at the end of exhaust system) >First, what could cause this car to constantly kill the same O2 sensor but not the one >upstream' from it? Moose, Not sure why the downstream one has failed twice in 110K, that's a bit unusual. I've got O2 sensors that have been in my cars for over 200K. When you pulled the sensors, did you inspect the wires? Was the insulation melted? If the wire is able to touch the exhaust pipe, cat, etc. then the insulation can melt and the sensor short out. When did you have to replace the 1st O2 sensor? If it was about 55K miles ago, then that's an even distribution. If the were both at 100 and 110 then, that's a different story. It could be that the 2nd O2 sensor we defective. Then Cat. converter could be failing can causing the new O2 sensor to fail. It's also possible that the O2 sensor hasn't failed. If there's a problem with the cat. then that would cause the down stream sensor to read off. If the engine control module (ECM) can't correct the mixture to get the down stream O2 sensor to read corrrectly, then it throws an O2 sensor error. >Second, could any additional damage occur from not fixing it right away? (We plan to write to >Toyota to have them give us an answer since the first 3 times this car was under warrantee.) I don't think so, with the exception of possibly a little more pollutants. The burning is all done, and the ehxaust is on it's way out, but contains to much or too little Oxygen in it. But I wouldn't wnat to run 100K mi. before trying to fix it. You might also want to get on a Toyota forumn for the car, and see what type of problems other have had like you are having. John >Thanks in advance! > >Eric P >"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational >being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph >Waldo Emerson >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From tvacc at lotusowners.com Thu Sep 15 07:12:47 2011 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:12:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] New 'blue' Stabul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E4BBC2CE0F341AEBB39AC756494CF46@amicroinc.local> >From what I have read, yes. At least I think so. It has been a long time since I read these articles so I throw them out to you for discussion. I have to get ready for work so I don't have time to reread these right now. So lets talk about it. I can tell you that my fuel cells are suffering. I now use the blue in my cars all the time. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanolwinter.asp http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/Ethanol%20411/Ethanol%20--%20The%20G ood,%20The%20Bad,%20and%20the%20Ugly.pdf http://echo.bluehornet.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=d27e74c638331ae7587f026a0 86459e3&CID=1853423993&ch=EF41EB24DBA3BC392AF86491ED79FBDE Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:43 PM To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] New 'blue' Stabul I know we talked about this before, but we didn't get an answer, and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with it by now. The new 'blue' stabul (the one with "enzymes" in it) does it work with the new ethanol fuels? These fuels are killing everyone's small engines and I was wondering if anyone knew if that additive can help. Thanks in advance. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6464 (20110914) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6465 (20110915) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Sep 15 08:20:42 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] O2 Sensors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > OK, car is a 2003 Toyota MR Spider. The "Check Engine" light came on, > again, for the 2nd O2 sensor. (This will be the 4th one on the car with > less than 110K miles on it.) > Each time, its the same O2 sensor (the one at the end of exhaust system) > > First, what could cause this car to constantly kill the same O2 sensor but > not the one 'upstream' from it? > > Second, could any additional damage occur from not fixing it right away? > (We plan to write to Toyota to have them give us an answer since the first > 3 times this car was under warrantee.) Eric, you may want to sit down. I'm going to use the phrase "new engine" in a minute. The Spyder has a well-known issue with the "pre-catalytic converter". The innards of the pre-cat break up over time, and due to some weird exhaust gas recirculation system, get sucked back into the combustion chamber where, as you can imagine, nothing good results. It's common for the shards of pre-cat to kill O2 sensors, as well, which is often how this issue gets identified. At least two friends of mine had new engines installed by Toyota under warranty/goodwill, but I don't know if they'll still do that. Here's some further information... http://www.midshiprunabout.org/mk3/precat-information/ You could probably find even more at http://www.spyderchat.com/ Sorry. -- David Hillman From pj_thomas at comcast.net Thu Sep 15 20:08:04 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 22:08:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 Message-ID: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> After Irene and hitting some big puddles my 2002 Taurus started misfiring. I get p0303 code which is a misfire on cylinder 3. I've already replaced the air filter which was wet; probably got water during the storm or just so humid the filter just wicked it up. I'm thinking (hoping) that the damp filter fouled the plugs. 100K so they need to be replaced anyway. Also changing the rodent chewed wires. Going to do this Saturday. If that does not fix it, coil pack. The question is I get P0303 which I know is misfire on cylinder 3. But I also got a P0316 once. I can't seem to find out what this code means. Peter T From jibjib at att.net Thu Sep 15 22:00:21 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:00:21 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6998E0BA8E75416A9F3632D4041DA2FD@EntCent> Tim, Certain types of water combined with certain anodes can create a metallic taste/smell. I don't know why it would come on all of a sudden, but checking the neighbors water too would be a great place to start. With regard to the anode, if it's a separate anode, you may find what looks like a bolt head, potentially with a bump in the middle of the head, under the insulation under the metal top cap, but within a hole. It may also be that your water heater, like my Bradford-White has the anode integral with the hot water outlet. Look it up on the web, by Model number. I could not find the integral anode in a local store, so I called Bradford-White and they hooked me up with a local dealer at a reasonable price. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tim Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:30 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] metallic smelling water I have "city" water in the village I live it. It has always been great water for over ten years in the last two places we have lived. (It had better be for the $80 a month average I pay for water, fire and (mostly) sewer service.) In this house we bought five years ago, the PO plumbed the whole house through the softener; not a big deal since there is also a plumbed water filtration system for drinking. Last month, when I wasn't home, my daughter let someone in from public works to replace the water meter (pissed me off no end since I wanted to get a bypass meter for outside water usage). Ever since, the water coming out of the taps has smelled metallic to me. I have, for now, a Richmond electric water heater that was there when we bought the place. It has a mfg date listed as 2004 so not crazy old. I have a new anode rod to install but did not see an easy way to install it as I cannot see a nut to put a wrench on. I need to look online to figure out how to replace the rod. Any thoughts as to why I am now getting this smell? Is it as simple as finally needing to replace the rod? Thanks! Tim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From strovato at optonline.net Thu Sep 15 22:42:36 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 00:42:36 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> The P0316 code is set when a misfire is detected during the first 1,000 revolution test interval following engine start. Google is your friend. :-) I was just helping a friend with a Toyota who did the exact same thing in the exact same storm. He had a p0302, misfire on cylinder 2. Got everything thoroughly dried out, reset the code and all is good. Of course, if you have rodents chewing on your wires, you have more to address than just a puddle. Good luck with it. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 10:08 PM 9/15/2011, Peter J. Thomas wrote: >After Irene and hitting some big puddles my 2002 Taurus started >misfiring. I get p0303 code which is a misfire on cylinder 3. I've >already replaced the air filter which was wet; probably got water >during the storm or just so humid the filter just wicked it up. I'm >thinking (hoping) that the damp filter fouled the plugs. 100K so >they need to be replaced anyway. Also changing the rodent chewed >wires. Going to do this Saturday. If that does not fix it, coil pack. > >The question is I get P0303 which I know is misfire on cylinder >3. But I also got a P0316 once. I can't seem to find out what this >code means. > >Peter T From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 22:59:00 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 23:59:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > After Irene and hitting some big puddles my 2002 Taurus started misfiring. > B I get p0303 code which is a misfire on cylinder 3. B I've already replaced > the air filter which was wet; probably got water during the storm or just so > humid the filter just wicked it up. B I'm thinking (hoping) that the damp > filter fouled the plugs. B 100K so they need to be replaced anyway. B Also > changing the rodent chewed wires. B Going to do this Saturday. B If that does > not fix it, coil pack. > > The question is I get P0303 which I know is misfire on cylinder 3. B But I > also got a P0316 once. B I can't seem to find out what this code means. Misfire in first 1000 revolutions. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 23:09:30 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 00:09:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > After Irene and hitting some big puddles my 2002 Taurus started misfiring. > B I get p0303 code which is a misfire on cylinder 3. B I've already replaced > the air filter which was wet; probably got water during the storm or just so > humid the filter just wicked it up. B I'm thinking (hoping) that the damp > filter fouled the plugs. B 100K so they need to be replaced anyway. B Also > changing the rodent chewed wires. B Going to do this Saturday. B If that does > not fix it, coil pack. > > The question is I get P0303 which I know is misfire on cylinder 3. B But I > also got a P0316 once. B I can't seem to find out what this code means. > (hit send too soon) It's a misfire in the first 1000 revs after start. If you've got a good scanner, there's usually more data stored, which can tell you what's at fault. Plugs and wires are a good place to start. Another cause of misfires on these engines is the crank angle sensor. Usually see P0300 (random misfire) for those, as well as 315 (where the heck is the crank at?). when that happens. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Sep 16 07:09:57 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:09:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> <0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> On 9/16/2011 12:42 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > The P0316 code is set when a misfire is detected during the first > 1,000 revolution test interval following engine start. Makes sense, I don't get an immediate P0303, but fairly quickly. > Google is your friend. :-) It's your friend but not mine. :-( All I could find was various combinations of P030x and P0316 but nothing specific about P0316. None of the tables I found or my shop manual list P0316. Curious if you have a link to a page of code that list P0316? Thanks. > I was just helping a friend with a Toyota who did the exact same thing > in the exact same storm. He had a p0302, misfire on cylinder 2. Got > everything thoroughly dried out, reset the code and all is good. Of > course, if you have rodents chewing on your wires, you have more to > address than just a puddle. Good luck with it. I work from home so I don't drive it every day. I live in a wooded area, lots of chipmunks and mice. They like to nest in there. Every car will eventually get acorn shells and the beginning of a nest in the air filter box. Peter T From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 16 07:49:28 2011 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:49:28 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> Message-ID: I know in my 98 Golf, the coil pack was starting to crack (pretty common issue) and would run rough when it was damp outside, and sometimes throw a code. With proper light you could see the arcing on the pack, and also hear it. -PJ > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 22:08:04 -0400 > From: pj_thomas at comcast.net > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 > > After Irene and hitting some big puddles my 2002 Taurus started > misfiring. I get p0303 code which is a misfire on cylinder 3. I've > already replaced the air filter which was wet; probably got water during > the storm or just so humid the filter just wicked it up. I'm thinking > (hoping) that the damp filter fouled the plugs. 100K so they need to be > replaced anyway. Also changing the rodent chewed wires. Going to do > this Saturday. If that does not fix it, coil pack. > > The question is I get P0303 which I know is misfire on cylinder 3. But > I also got a P0316 once. I can't seem to find out what this code means. > > Peter T From strovato at optonline.net Fri Sep 16 08:20:30 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:20:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> <0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0LRM00ELSD6SB620@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Try here: http://engine-codes.com/p0316_ford.html -Steve At 09:09 AM 9/16/2011, you wrote: >On 9/16/2011 12:42 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: >> The P0316 code is set when a misfire is detected during the >> first 1,000 revolution test interval following engine start. >Makes sense, I don't get an immediate P0303, but fairly quickly. >>Google is your friend. :-) > >It's your friend but not mine. :-( All I could find was various >combinations of P030x and P0316 but nothing specific about >P0316. None of the tables I found or my shop manual list >P0316. Curious if you have a link to a page of code that list P0316? Thanks. From bspidell at comcast.net Fri Sep 16 09:40:50 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:40:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> FWIW, we got similar codes from my dad's 2000 Lincoln LS--except for the 316--along with periodic uncommanded engine shutdowns (unnerving, to say the least). Replaced cam and crank sensors, but finally solved the problem by replacing all the coils. This is a known problem with this car, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same coil-on-plug coils are used on your Taurus. New cars spark at even higher voltages than older, single coil/distributor systems, and the COPs are about the size of a 35mm film canister. Keeping that much voltage in check with very little insulation seems problematic to me, and it seems quite a few cars have COP problems eventually. The original coil on my 1967 Austin-Healey, OTOH, has been going strong for 45 years and 170K+ miles. Bob -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter J. Thomas" To: "Steven Trovato" Cc: "Shop Talk" Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 6:09:57 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 On 9/16/2011 12:42 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > The P0316 code is set when a misfire is detected during the first > 1,000 revolution test interval following engine start. Makes sense, I don't get an immediate P0303, but fairly quickly. > Google is your friend. :-) It's your friend but not mine. :-( All I could find was various combinations of P030x and P0316 but nothing specific about P0316. None of the tables I found or my shop manual list P0316. Curious if you have a link to a page of code that list P0316? Thanks. > I was just helping a friend with a Toyota who did the exact same thing > in the exact same storm. He had a p0302, misfire on cylinder 2. Got > everything thoroughly dried out, reset the code and all is good. Of > course, if you have rodents chewing on your wires, you have more to > address than just a puddle. Good luck with it. I work from home so I don't drive it every day. I live in a wooded area, lots of chipmunks and mice. They like to nest in there. Every car will eventually get acorn shells and the beginning of a nest in the air filter box. Peter T From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 16 10:55:39 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:55:39 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net><0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1f8601cc7491$76bb2d40$0301a8c0@randall> > All I could find was various > combinations of P030x and P0316 but nothing specific about > P0316. According to the manual I found at http://www.scribd.com/doc/14896052/2002-Explorer-DTC-PCode-Engine-Computer-C ontrol-System-Diagnosis P0316 is always thrown in combination with another P03xx code indicating which cylinder misfired. That manual is for a Explorer, but under OBD-II most of the codes have common definitions. > > It's your friend but not mine. Comments like that always baffle me. I put in "p0316" and got 47,000 hits. Scrolled down to the 6th hit, which showed the text "P0316 is an engine misfire in the first 1000 revelations. See link, Page 39" right in Google. Then clicked on the Google link and scrolled down to the "see link", which took me to the manual above. Took less time than it took me to type this post. -- Randall From fishplate at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 12:30:13 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:30:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Bob Spidell wrote: > The original coil on my 1967 Austin-Healey, OTOH, has been going strong for 45 years and 170K+ miles. Oh, now you've done it! The only way to keep it going now is to buy a spare and always keep it handy... From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 14:33:53 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:33:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E73B2B1.4030900@gmail.com> I was gonna say... Anybody want to start an over/under on if Bob's Healy's coil goes tango uniform before Bob can get a replacement to the house? :-) On 9/16/2011 2:30 PM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Bob Spidell wrote: >> The original coil on my 1967 Austin-Healey, OTOH, has been going strong for 45 years and 170K+ miles. > Oh, now you've done it! The only way to keep it going now is to buy a > spare and always keep it handy... > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com From bspidell at comcast.net Fri Sep 16 14:45:29 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:45:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1601248871.762173.1316205929942.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Ugh. You're right. Bob -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Scarbrough" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 11:30:13 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Bob Spidell wrote: > The original coil on my 1967 Austin-Healey, OTOH, has been going strong for 45 years and 170K+ miles. Oh, now you've done it! The only way to keep it going now is to buy a spare and always keep it handy... _______________________________________________ From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Sep 16 14:47:13 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:47:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <1f8601cc7491$76bb2d40$0301a8c0@randall> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net><0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <1f8601cc7491$76bb2d40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4E73B5D1.8090405@comcast.net> On 9/16/2011 12:55 PM, Randall wrote: >> All I could find was various >> combinations of P030x and P0316 but nothing specific about >> P0316. > According to the manual I found at > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/14896052/2002-Explorer-DTC-PCode-Engine-Computer-C > ontrol-System-Diagnosis > > P0316 is always thrown in combination with another P03xx code indicating > which cylinder misfired. That manual is for a Explorer, but under OBD-II > most of the codes have common definitions. > >>> It's your friend but not mine. > Comments like that always baffle me. I put in "p0316" and got 47,000 hits. > Scrolled down to the 6th hit, which showed the text "P0316 is an engine > misfire in the first 1000 revelations. See link, Page 39" right in Google. > Then clicked on the Google link and scrolled down to the "see link", which > took me to the manual above. Took less time than it took me to type this > post. Google uses algorithms to sort it's hits by priority. The first time a search is issued the results are pretty random. Google then remembers which results are visited and priorities those hits for future searches. Could be that I and others on this list that search taught Google what P0316 is and you got a better result. Peter T. > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Sep 16 14:56:30 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <1f8601cc7491$76bb2d40$0301a8c0@randall> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> <0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <1f8601cc7491$76bb2d40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: Was this a typo? I am not sure. :-) On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Randall wrote: > Scrolled down to the 6th hit, which showed the text "P0316 is an engine > misfire in the first 1000 revelations. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 16 15:25:20 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:25:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> > The original coil on my 1967 Austin-Healey, OTOH, has been going strong > for 45 years and 170K+ miles. The original coil on my 56 Triumph did about as well; but the "Lucas" replacement only lasted 2 years. Too many components bought from the lowest bidder, I'd guess. The ignition coil on my 95 Buick (which may have been one of the last American cars to actually have a single coil & distributor) has already been replaced twice. -- Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Sep 16 18:08:34 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:08:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> Message-ID: I bet that over the decades, at least 50% of all coil replacements actually replaced a perfectly good coil, with no effect on the car's operation. Doug On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Randall wrote: > > The original coil on my 1967 Austin-Healey, OTOH, has been going strong > > for 45 years and 170K+ miles. > > The original coil on my 56 Triumph did about as well; but the "Lucas" > replacement only lasted 2 years. > > Too many components bought from the lowest bidder, I'd guess. The ignition > coil on my 95 Buick (which may have been one of the last American cars to > actually have a single coil & distributor) has already been replaced twice. > > -- From mark at nashvilletn.org Fri Sep 16 18:15:35 2011 From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 19:15:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Volvo XC60 Message-ID: <115EAD8D81FF4ECB8077BDE977DE5B71@Dell9200> I am thinking about a new car (crossover) and thought I would ask the group about Volvo's. I have no first hand experience and want something reliable, not like my GMC. Any thoughts? Looking at the XC60 in line 6 Turbo. Mark Nashville From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 16 18:28:02 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:28:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> Message-ID: <035701cc74d0$a9942660$fcbc7320$@rr.com> > I bet that over the decades, at least 50% of all coil replacements > actually replaced a perfectly good coil, with no effect on the car's > operation. Very possibly. But in my case, every replacement produced a dramatic effect in the car's operation. First time the TR started really hard and ran like crap until I changed just the coil, then it started and ran great. Second time was worse, it would start and idle (once it had cooled off) but not run enough to even move the car. Changed just the coil, ran great. I forget the number offhand, but the high tension resistance was way higher than it had been before. When I bought it, the Buick would miss and cut out if you ran over a damp sponge. Replaced the coil (which had visible damage on the high tension tower), problem went away. Second time it flunked emissions even after a tune-up (plugs, wires, cap, rotor, etc); after changing the coil it passed with flying colors (for an engine with over 200,000 miles on it). -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 18:40:06 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 19:40:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E73B5D1.8090405@comcast.net> References: <4E72AF84.8040601@comcast.net> <0LRL0016FMFDTIJ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <1f8601cc7491$76bb2d40$0301a8c0@randall> <4E73B5D1.8090405@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > On 9/16/2011 12:55 PM, Randall wrote: >>> >>> All I could find was various >>> combinations of P030x and P0316 but nothing specific about >>> P0316. >> >> According to the manual I found at >> >> >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/14896052/2002-Explorer-DTC-PCode-Engine-Computer-C >> ontrol-System-Diagnosis >> >> P0316 is always thrown in combination with another P03xx code indicating >> which cylinder misfired. B That manual is for a Explorer, but under OBD-II >> most of the codes have common definitions. And it's lying. It's supposed to be the case that p0316 is thrown if another misfire code is thrown, but I've seen fords with just p0316. (And much more often, with P0300, indicating that the misfiring cylinder isn't known, or that it's a bunch of them.) ODBII codes have a syntax. The first letter indicates the area: P for powertrain, B for body, C for chassis. The second digit is either a 0 or a 1; 0 are generic codes, 1 are manufacturer specific. (Generally, manufacturers use the same codes across all their vehicles, but not always, particularly if the engine is someone else's.). The third digit tells you which subsystem the computer thinks the problem is in. (it can be wrong, of course) 1 is emissions controllers, 2 is injection, 3 is ignition 4 is emissions, 5 is speed control (throttle and throttle replacements), 6 is the computer itself, 7 and 8 are transmission, 9 and 0 are reserved for future use. The last two digits are problem specific. Not incidently, Ford have a series of P13xx codes that identify which coil is going bad. (I don't remember what they are though.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mdporter at dfn.com Fri Sep 16 22:18:43 2011 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 22:18:43 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4E741FA3.4020409@dfn.com> On 9/16/2011 6:08 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > I bet that over the decades, at least 50% of all coil replacements actually > replaced a perfectly good coil, with no effect on the car's operation. > > There's a long tradition in this country of replacing parts until the problem is fixed. In the case of hobbyist mechanics, that's sometimes the only process possible, because they lack the necessary diagnostic equipment, but most people would be surprised at the number of shops in older times which allowed line mechanics without the requisite skills to take jobs for which they did not have the training. In the `80s, I worked in a shop that had eight mechanics, four of whom did not know how to read the results from the Sun oscilloscope, and yet, all were entitled to do tune-ups. My favorite story along these lines was a kid given a truck with a bad miss to diagnose. He changed the spark plugs and then dutifully hooked up the `scope, peered at it a while, pronounced it a mystery and sent the truck on its way. This was a Tuesday. On Friday evening after work, he was having a bash at his house and had gone to the grocery store for a couple of cases of beer. As he was leaving the store he saw the truck idling in the parking lot and thought, "gee, that looks like the..." and as he stepped off the curb, the truck exploded in flames. (Later, he admitted to me that in that instant, he also thought, "oops.") It was towed to us over the weekend, and the interior looked like a Salvador Dali painting--headliner melting and hanging in drips, the steering wheel twisted and melted, etc. The catalytic converter had overheated and burst open. So, off it went to the body shop. When it was returned, it was given to the same kid to replace the damaged converter, which he did, and then started to park the car in the "finished" lot. I went over to him and said, "whoa, whoa, whoa! You're gonna send this thing out with the same problem that caused the damned thing to explode? Go get the `scope." Hooked it up, put it in parade mode and the problem was as obvious as the nose on one's face--only two ignition traces, so I stopped the engine, pulled off the distributor cap, and there were a couple of huge cracks and and carbon tracks inside, the reason why it was firing on only two cylinders, and the ostensible reason why the converter had overloaded on raw fuel, overheated and blew up. Now, without the `scope, some mechanics would do the visual inspection that might have found the problem, but, the shop mandate was that ignition diagnosis (and tune-ups) required use of the oscilloscope. Good policy intended to help make proper diagnoses, but, worse than useless if the mechanic couldn't read and interpret the results. Ultimately, good diagnostic ability and information is the only way to reduce the tendency to swap parts haphazardly. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From bspidell at comcast.net Sat Sep 17 07:45:17 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 06:45:17 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4E74A46D.1030005@comcast.net> Agreed. Any sort of miss or stumble and the coil gets replaced because it's an easy job and people don't want--or don't know how--to diagnose ignition problems. Also, fancy 'sports coils' get installed with little or no improvement to the engine's performance (and maybe worse performance if the rest of the system isn't upgraded). But, COPs are definitely causing problems in a lot of cars. 'P303',' I believe, is a miss in #3 cylinder. I'd replace that one and if the problem goes away I'd replace the other coils. I found a website where a pro mechanic had a similar problem to my dad's and did a very thorough diagnostic with modern computerized equipment. He found a bad coil would cause a voltage spike on the primary ignition wiring which caused the ECM to shut down. Bob On 9/16/2011 5:08 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > I bet that over the decades, at least 50% of all coil replacements actually > replaced a perfectly good coil, with no effect on the car's operation. > > Doug > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Randall wrote: > >>> The original coil on my 1967 Austin-Healey, OTOH, has been going strong >>> for 45 years and 170K+ miles. >> The original coil on my 56 Triumph did about as well; but the "Lucas" >> replacement only lasted 2 years. >> >> Too many components bought from the lowest bidder, I'd guess. The ignition >> coil on my 95 Buick (which may have been one of the last American cars to >> actually have a single coil& distributor) has already been replaced twice. >> >> -- > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From jibjib at att.net Sat Sep 17 12:45:17 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:45:17 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Volvo XC60 In-Reply-To: <115EAD8D81FF4ECB8077BDE977DE5B71@Dell9200> References: <115EAD8D81FF4ECB8077BDE977DE5B71@Dell9200> Message-ID: <1DFD75FCEE884AC98F39400D76947233@EntCent> Hopefully, you are looking at the inline 2.5T turbo, not the dual turbo 6, which in prior years has not necessarily been a great engine. We have an XC90 with the 2.5T and it drives the moderately heavy vehicle quite nicely with decent mileage, huge torque and is considered a bulletproof engine. I don't know the XC60 at all. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 5:16 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Volvo XC60 I am thinking about a new car (crossover) and thought I would ask the group about Volvo's. I have no first hand experience and want something reliable, not like my GMC. Any thoughts? Looking at the XC60 in line 6 Turbo. Mark Nashville _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Mon Sep 19 09:01:32 2011 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 08:01:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <4E741FA3.4020409@dfn.com> References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> <4E741FA3.4020409@dfn.com> Message-ID: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145B78875098@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> Hmm, I hope the statute of limitations is passed. I was a clueless mechanic in the 80's... A $200 estimate turned into a $450 bill and I didn't have the money so I ended up working off my bill. Before I was done working off my debt I was offered a job. In the beginning I was doing simple stuff such as oil changes, brake jobs, tune ups and parts runs.. Three years later I was doing clutches transmission/engine swaps, and webber conversions. The customers would probably freak out if they knew I was was a full time math/comp-sci student. During my time there I was surprised at the diagnostic skills of my coworkers (both extremely good and very poor)... It was during this period of my life that I devloped my addiction to snap-on :) From fishplate at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 13:05:37 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:05:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145B78875098@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> <4E741FA3.4020409@dfn.com> <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145B78875098@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Galt, Stuart A wrote: > The customers would probably freak out if they knew I was was a full time > math/comp-sci student. In between the halves of my college career, I spent several years at a VW dealer. One of my fellow technicians was a former college history teacher with a Master's degree. You never know who you might meet under that coat of grease. > During my time there I was surprised at the diagnostic > skills of my coworkers (both extremely good and very poor)... They're just people, like everyone else... Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Sep 19 18:21:54 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 17:21:54 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII trouble code P0316 In-Reply-To: References: <4E734AA5.60909@comcast.net> <2048781088.746984.1316187650239.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02e601cc74b7$24649330$6d2db990$@rr.com> <4E741FA3.4020409@dfn.com> <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145B78875098@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <066401cc772b$4d70f810$e852e830$@rr.com> > They're just people, like everyone else... "90% of everything is crap." - Sturgeon's revelation Still, one doesn't have to be very bright to know to tighten the lug nuts after the wheel is put on; which my former mechanic forgot the last time he touched my car. -- Randall From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Sep 20 06:25:08 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 07:25:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower Message-ID: My 10 year old Cub Cadet is starting to be more trouble than I want... seems every week or so it's costing me money... for a 1.5 acre suburban lot... what do ya'll consider the best residential lawn tractor and ZTR mower... don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store pos.. but need something that will last longer than the warranty... john From bbubeck01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 10:08:27 2011 From: bbubeck01 at gmail.com (Bruce Bubeck) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:08:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, My vote goes for a John Deere. I bought an L110 (replaced by D110) at my local John Deere dealer about 7 years ago for my 1 acre lot and have had zero problems other than the seat cover cracking. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:25 AM, john niolon wrote: > My 10 year old Cub Cadet is starting to be more trouble than I want... > seems > every week or so it's costing me money... > > for a 1.5 acre suburban lot... what do ya'll consider the best residential > lawn tractor and ZTR mower... > > don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store > pos.. but need something that will last longer than the warranty... > > john > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bbubeck01 at gmail.com From eltonclark at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 11:12:52 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:12:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * * On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 7:25 AM, john niolon wrote: > > don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store > pos.. but need something that will last longer than the warranty... > > john > *The dealer and his reputation for service are the big factor; I'd look around real tractor dealers in your town with real service shops. I'm biased but I'd start at the Kubota store.* ** *Tony in Texas* From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 11:24:29 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:24:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E78CC4D.700@gmail.com> For 1.5 acres are we talking about a push mower, or do you want the $12,000 Deere with finish mower attachment driven off the p.t.o.? :-) I keeeeeeeeeeeeed. I've got a Husky from Lowes I use for ~4 acres. The Deere from the Deere dealer was nicer but was also $1200 more expensive. It wasn't worth it to me. Someone here said that if it says Deere on the side, Deere made it, and not American Yard Products (who I suspect make every lawn tractor sold in the U.S.). I don't know if that's true, but the Deere from the Deere dealer was nothing like the Deere from Home Depot, and the price reflected that. I can't speak to reliability in dealer vs. box models or brands, but the Husky has been fine with the exception of a deck mounting bracket that vanished and had to be replaced. Other than that, it's fine, which is the nicest thing I can think to say about it's reliability. Essentially, get the cheap one, because they'll all break about the same. I'll say this though: mine is a 48-inch deck. It's got three blades. Avoid this arrangement if you have an option (the dealer Deere was a 44-inch deck, if memory serves, but it had two blades). Ultimately, you want the longest blades you can get, not the biggest deck. Two 22-inch blades are far preferable to three 16-inch blades, to which I can attest from hard experience. My blades must be perfectly razor sharp to cut, and I still end up cutting the yard twice. As far as the hydrostatic drive, etc., I've had no issues. I had a Snapper before that, and I'd still say get the cheap mower. It was no better than the Husky. My future plans for the yard are this: multiple Roomba-esque robotic mowers, a used professional mondo-deck tractor or ZTR, or an actual tractor with a finish deck. I think for 1.5 acres, I might be inclined to get a push mower, but a tractor might make it more comfortable. I wanted the tractor until I got them, and not they just seem to low on the cost/benefit scale to repeat. On 9/20/2011 8:25 AM, john niolon wrote: > My 10 year old Cub Cadet is starting to be more trouble than I want... seems > every week or so it's costing me money... > > for a 1.5 acre suburban lot... what do ya'll consider the best residential > lawn tractor and ZTR mower... > > don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store > pos.. but need something that will last longer than the warranty... From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Sep 20 15:25:05 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:25:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: <4E78CC4D.700@gmail.com> References: <4E78CC4D.700@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know this will be sacrilegious to write on the Shop Talk mail list but consider simply paying a yard service to mow the lawn. I say this for two reasons: 1) I hate mowing the lawn (I'd prefer to harvest it once a year but my wife disagrees so I let her mow it...) and B) the cost to pay a yard service is likely less than the monthly payments on a new mower. And that is money I'd rather spend on tools (obligatory shop content). Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From cavanadd at frontier.com Tue Sep 20 20:52:05 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:52:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E795155.8090002@frontier.com> Kubota. My parents wore out two JD riding mowers. It seemed like there was always something going wrong with them. I know some people have really good luck with them, but my experience with them is that they are really proud of the green paint job and their residential stuff isn't that good. (On the other hand my folks also had a very small JD diesel 4x4 compact tractor that was pretty bullet proof. My brother still has it and it has to be 30 years old. Still, I bought a New Holland...) I used to be a facilities operations management guy. One large municipal property I used to manage had a rotating crew of maintenance mechanics that shared the winter grounds duties, then in the summer they hired high school and college kids to do the heavy mowing. I observed we had fairly ordinary Kubota riding mowers (we needed something relatively low tech and compact, so the bigger commercial zero turn and athletic field mowers were out) and I asked the vehicle mechanic what kinds of problems he had with them. His answer was "zero". Just routine maintenance, and some of the mowers were over ten years old. Ten years ago I bought my wife a Kubota 1670, which was the (then) current version of the even older mowers we had at work. Other than oil and filter changes, blade sharpening and two belts, I have had zero problems in ten years. One of these days I am going to have to adjust the brakes, but that's about it. And we have a gravel driveway and lots of trees, and my wife runs over ALL kinds of sh*t. john niolon wrote: > My 10 year old Cub Cadet is starting to be more trouble than I want... seems > every week or so it's costing me money... > > for a 1.5 acre suburban lot... what do ya'll consider the best residential > lawn tractor and ZTR mower... > > don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store > pos.. but need something that will last longer than the warranty... > > john > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 05:29:55 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 07:29:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You wrote: > don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store >> pos.. The best mower is a cheap Snapper you bought off of Craigslist. Easy to fix when it breaks, relatively cheap parts, and lots of excuses to sit out in the shop and tinker while you sip a beverage. Consumer Reports seemed pretty fond of the JD ZTR mowers as of a couple of years ago. Note that the JD tractor you get at the Big Box isn't the same as the JD you get at the JD dealer. We have a JD 420 lawn tractor at work - it doesn't see regular use (or maintenance) but it works every time. We also have a Toro ZTR and a JD ZTR - I wouldn't run the JD on a hill, since it doesn't have a seat belt or ROPS. The Toro does... Both have been pretty reliable in regular use. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 08:10:34 2011 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:10:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006801cc7868$3cd05580$b6710080$@com> I've got a John Deere LX188 (48" mulching deck) that's been a pretty good mower for the past 18 years (it was my father's). He upgraded to a John Deere X360 (I think) a few years ago. It's 22 HP and has a 48" deck. He passed away a couple months ago and I mowed for my mother a few weeks ago and it is a really nice mower. It felt like it had a ton of power compared to the 17 HP LX188 and was really pleasant to use. I made fun of the cruise control until I used it, but then I really liked it. If I were in the market for a lawn tractor right now, that would probably be the one. The nice thing about the John Deere mowers (The "real" ones from the dealerships) is that they seem to have better fit/finish and build quality and the support for them is fantastic. I rebuilt the deck on the LX188 and they had the parts I needed in stock and for what I thought were reasonable prices. They didn't have the carb rebuild kit, but they got it for me in a few days. I doubt that I'd have as easy a time hunting down parts for an 18 year old Toro or Snapper or whatever. -Paul -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 8:25 AM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower My 10 year old Cub Cadet is starting to be more trouble than I want... seems every week or so it's costing me money... for a 1.5 acre suburban lot... what do ya'll consider the best residential lawn tractor and ZTR mower... don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store pos.. but need something that will last longer than the warranty... john From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 08:49:47 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:49:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Talk to all the Kubota owners you can and see if you also find that the biggest problem they seem to have is deciding which grandson they leave it to after about 25 years of good value and good service. Tony (biased)* From tvacc at lotusowners.com Wed Sep 21 11:20:00 2011 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:20:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had a Kubota Diesel tractor since 1993. It still runs and looks like new. They are just fantastic. I cut about 3 acres. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the darn thing. It is just amazing. Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:30 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] best residential mower You wrote: > don't want to put out mega bucks on a commercial and don't want a box store >> pos.. The best mower is a cheap Snapper you bought off of Craigslist. Easy to fix when it breaks, relatively cheap parts, and lots of excuses to sit out in the shop and tinker while you sip a beverage. Consumer Reports seemed pretty fond of the JD ZTR mowers as of a couple of years ago. Note that the JD tractor you get at the Big Box isn't the same as the JD you get at the JD dealer. We have a JD 420 lawn tractor at work - it doesn't see regular use (or maintenance) but it works every time. We also have a Toro ZTR and a JD ZTR - I wouldn't run the JD on a hill, since it doesn't have a seat belt or ROPS. The Toro does... Both have been pretty reliable in regular use. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6481 (20110921) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6482 (20110921) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From strovato at optonline.net Wed Sep 21 13:45:24 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:45:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: <006801cc7868$3cd05580$b6710080$@com> References: <006801cc7868$3cd05580$b6710080$@com> Message-ID: <0LRW00LAL1LNUSA0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Funny, but a carb kit is the one thing I'd really expect them to have. They're not very expensive, they don't take up much shelf space and "gunked up carburetor" seems to be a popular problem with small engines. -Steve At 10:10 AM 9/21/2011, Paul Parkanzky wrote: >They didn't have the carb rebuild kit, but they got it for me in a >few days. From marka at maracing.com Wed Sep 21 14:35:00 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: <4E795155.8090002@frontier.com> References: <4E795155.8090002@frontier.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David C. wrote: > Kubota. I have done absolutely no research at all. That said, every time I see the word "Kubota" mentioned as regards "mowing my lawn", what I hear in my head is "way the hell too much money". I have a POS Cub Cadet LT-whatever lawn tractor that we bought seven years ago. I've changed the mower deck belt a few times when it broke, changed the Hydrostatic drive belt once when it broke (which was a huge PITA), and I think I've changed the oil twice. IIRC, we paid around $1700 for it. I would really like to have a zero turn mower. But I seriously doubt I can afford to buy a used Kubota, let alone a new one. Mark From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 16:54:26 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:54:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: <4E78CC4D.700@gmail.com> References: <4E78CC4D.700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > For 1.5 acres are we talking about a push mower, or do you want the $12,000 > Deere with finish mower attachment driven off the p.t.o.? B :-) > > I keeeeeeeeeeeeed. B I've got a Husky from Lowes I use for ~4 acres. B The > Deere from the Deere dealer was nicer but was also $1200 more expensive. B It > wasn't worth it to me. > > Someone here said that if it says Deere on the side, Deere made it, and not > American Yard Products (who I suspect make every lawn tractor sold in the > U.S.). B I don't know if that's true, but the Deere from the Deere dealer was > nothing like the Deere from Home Depot, and the price reflected that. Interestingly, JD have had 3 recalls of riding mowers in the last week. Some burst into flames, some had brakes that break, some had blades that didn't stop spinning. All were models sold at dealers, and not through HD et al. (Also, I heard JD are dropping some of their consumer line; wasn't clear if it included tractors, or just push mowers.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 17:03:15 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:03:15 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: <4E78CC4D.700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E7A6D33.3030603@gmail.com> It didn't matter much to me one way or the other--the dealer Deere was pushing $3,000. That kind of money would be enough to purchase the army of Roomba-mowers and deploy them. The H-D Deere was more expensive than the Husky and appeared to be the same mower. Husky it was. On 9/21/2011 6:54 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > Interestingly, JD have had 3 recalls of riding mowers in the last > week. Some burst into flames, some had brakes that break, some had > blades that didn't stop spinning. All were models sold at dealers, and > not through HD et al. (Also, I heard JD are dropping some of their > consumer line; wasn't clear if it included tractors, or just push > mowers.) From tvacc at lotusowners.com Wed Sep 21 17:41:54 2011 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:41:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: <4E795155.8090002@frontier.com> Message-ID: Yes, Kobotas are not cheap. Mine was like 7K with tax back in 93. Mine does not have 4 wheel drive or "zero" turn. I do have a bagger however. But if you look at it as a once a lifetime purchase, which it will be for me. Not that bad. About $350 per year so far and that will only get lower the older I get. I have spent about $500 on maintenance (tires/tuneup/oil changes/filters) so far. I know it will start and run every time I go out there. No question. And it still really looks new. I have a feeling my grand children will be using it. Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Andy Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:35 PM To: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] best residential mower Howdy, On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David C. wrote: > Kubota. I have done absolutely no research at all. That said, every time I see the word "Kubota" mentioned as regards "mowing my lawn", what I hear in my head is "way the hell too much money". I have a POS Cub Cadet LT-whatever lawn tractor that we bought seven years ago. I've changed the mower deck belt a few times when it broke, changed the Hydrostatic drive belt once when it broke (which was a huge PITA), and I think I've changed the oil twice. IIRC, we paid around $1700 for it. I would really like to have a zero turn mower. But I seriously doubt I can afford to buy a used Kubota, let alone a new one. Mark _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6483 (20110921) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6483 (20110921) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Wed Sep 21 17:45:07 2011 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:45:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: <4E795155.8090002@frontier.com> Message-ID: I'm of a similar mind set to Mark. Analogously, I'd like to have all Snap-On and IR tools in my shop, but I don't use them professionally and I tend to settle for the HF disposable items and only treat myself on occasion to the good stuff--knowing I will never see the value out of my expensive air impact gun relative to an HF gun. For me, I'd seriously think about how long I might use the tractor and go from there. We are periodically presented with the "opportunity" to relo and the tractor was one of things that didn't make one of our prior moves. That said, my in-laws traded their Case diesel for a Kubota a couple years ago and they couldn't be happier with the reliability or the design. This is a real outlier given that they only buy American cars and Ford trucks. Also, my friend runs a landscaping business and after 20 years, he now only buys Kubota...although I see him with someone else's demo periodically, the old units are Kubota. - Ian -----Original Message----- Mark wrote: That said, every time I see the word "Kubota" mentioned as regards "mowing my lawn", what I hear in my head is "way the hell too much money". I have a POS Cub Cadet LT-whatever lawn tractor that we bought seven years ago. I've changed the mower deck belt a few times when it broke, changed the Hydrostatic drive belt once when it broke (which was a huge PITA), and I think I've changed the oil twice. IIRC, we paid around $1700 for it. I would really like to have a zero turn mower. But I seriously doubt I can afford to buy a used Kubota, let alone a new one. From jibjib at att.net Wed Sep 21 21:31:50 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:31:50 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] best residential mower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <267AA2A7C1A44EE19588683718958C3E@EntCent> +1 on the Snapper. I have a 21 inch self propelled, that is 18 years old and out mows the newish Honda a neighbor gave me. The bag alone is worth keeping the old girl around. The only issue I've had with it is the exhaust valve seat was a tad undersized and would slip, causing me to lose all compression. Once I figured it out, I staked that sucker in place with a punch. That was about 15 years ago, and it's a Briggs engine. It's also wicked fast in "high" gear, which is one of the major reasons I bought it. I walk fast and can barely keep up. The shop guys were hysterical when I asked about the fastest mower in the shop. I didn't want to spend on a riding mower (thread content) and this self propelled worked out great. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:30 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] best residential mower The best mower is a cheap Snapper you bought off of Craigslist. Easy to fix when it breaks, relatively cheap parts, and lots of excuses to sit out in the shop and tinker while you sip a beverage. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 13:28:03 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:28:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? Message-ID: So a local guy has some 200 c.f. oxygen bottles. I'm going to buy them so I don't have to rent them. He's also got an 80 c.f. acetylene bottle he offered me. I'm checking to see if the local place will exchange it, but provided it will, is it worth buying the 80 c.f. over renting a 200 c.f. tank? It's not the cost I'm thinking about so much as having to constantly re-fill the 80 c.f. tank. I'll have two 200 c.f. oxygen bottles, so I could go a good long time on those. I know I'll use more oxygen than acetylene, but I don't remember how much. Should I keep the 200 c.f. rental, or swap it out for the 80 c.f. I buy (provided they'll swap that one). Thanks. From strovato at optonline.net Fri Sep 23 15:50:26 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:50:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LRZ00KO6WOJ89C0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I'm really not an expert on this topic, but I think the main factor is what your needs are. Are you welding or cutting? Cutting uses much more oxygen. Are you doing this every day or is this a once in a while hobby thing? And how inconvenient is going to the local place? Most important thing, though for both the oxygen and acetylene bottles is to make sure that you can get them filled or exchanged without any issues. I'd make sure of that before buying anything. If they are OK with exchanging your tank, they will probably be willing to exchange it for a different size, if you pay the price difference. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 03:28 PM 9/23/2011, Scott Hall wrote: >So a local guy has some 200 c.f. oxygen bottles. I'm going to buy them so I >don't have to rent them. He's also got an 80 c.f. acetylene bottle he >offered me. I'm checking to see if the local place will exchange it, but >provided it will, is it worth buying the 80 c.f. over renting a 200 c.f. >tank? > >It's not the cost I'm thinking about so much as having to constantly re-fill >the 80 c.f. tank. I'll have two 200 c.f. oxygen bottles, so I could go a >good long time on those. I know I'll use more oxygen than acetylene, but I >don't remember how much. > >Should I keep the 200 c.f. rental, or swap it out for the 80 c.f. I buy >(provided they'll swap that one). > >Thanks. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 16:02:07 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:02:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? In-Reply-To: <0LRZ00KO6WOJ89C0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0LRZ00KO6WOJ89C0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4E7D01DF.4030001@gmail.com> It's extremely inconvenient to get to the local place, which was what was driving my desire to try and minimize the trips. I'll be welding and heating mostly, with very little cutting. Just a weekend thing--I won't use a lot, but it'll all be on the weekend, when I can't get tanks re-filled. I should be good for oxygen--I'll have two 200 c.f. tanks, and I guess I could buy a third. I was wondering, though, if 80 c.f. of acetylene is, well...'a lot'. Yeah, the first thing I did was call the fill station to make sure they'd exchange them. And the biggest one they'll sell me is 80 c.f., though they'll rent me a 200 c.f. tank. It's just the rental process is almost a bigger pain than driving down there with an 80 c.f. tank I'd own. On 9/23/2011 5:50 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > I'm really not an expert on this topic, but I think the main factor is > what your needs are. Are you welding or cutting? Cutting uses much > more oxygen. Are you doing this every day or is this a once in a > while hobby thing? And how inconvenient is going to the local place? > Most important thing, though for both the oxygen and acetylene bottles > is to make sure that you can get them filled or exchanged without any > issues. I'd make sure of that before buying anything. If they are OK > with exchanging your tank, they will probably be willing to exchange > it for a different size, if you pay the price difference. From hillman at planet-torque.com Fri Sep 23 16:13:14 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fyi, acetylene is hard to get following an explosion of the main production facility earlier this year. http://www.wdrb.com/story/14432197/carbide-industries-operates-differently-following-fatal-explosion Most LWS are rationing their supplies and/or have long since run out, I'm told. Plant won't be back online until next year. Oxygen/gasoline would seem to make a lot more sense. In my experience with filling MIG and TIG cylinders, gas suppliers' rules are totally arbitrary and make zero sense. Some places would or wouldn't fill certain tanks, and prices are all over the map, too. I get my 150 ft argon tanks filled practically for free, $15, but other places a few miles away charge an arm and a leg. You'll have to make some calls to see which can be filled, and for how much. On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Scott Hall wrote: > So a local guy has some 200 c.f. oxygen bottles. I'm going to buy them so I > don't have to rent them. He's also got an 80 c.f. acetylene bottle he > offered me. I'm checking to see if the local place will exchange it, but > provided it will, is it worth buying the 80 c.f. over renting a 200 c.f. > tank? > > It's not the cost I'm thinking about so much as having to constantly re-fill > the 80 c.f. tank. I'll have two 200 c.f. oxygen bottles, so I could go a > good long time on those. I know I'll use more oxygen than acetylene, but I > don't remember how much. > > Should I keep the 200 c.f. rental, or swap it out for the 80 c.f. I buy > (provided they'll swap that one). > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/hillman at planet-torque.com > > -- David Hillman From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 17:09:00 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:09:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > So a local guy has some 200 c.f. oxygen bottles. I'm going to buy them so I > don't have to rent them. He's also got an 80 c.f. acetylene bottle he > offered me. I'm checking to see if the local place will exchange it, but > provided it will, is it worth buying the 80 c.f. over renting a 200 c.f. > tank? > > It's not the cost I'm thinking about so much as having to constantly re-fill > the 80 c.f. tank. I'll have two 200 c.f. oxygen bottles, so I could go a > good long time on those. I know I'll use more oxygen than acetylene, but I > don't remember how much. > > Should I keep the 200 c.f. rental, or swap it out for the 80 c.f. I buy > (provided they'll swap that one). > Two to one is what I've always been told. So the acetylene is only slightly undersized. Actual consumption varies depending on use (cutting uses lots O2 relative to fuel, welding much less, and heating with small tips less than that). Whether it's worth it or not depends on your usage, and what the local gas people charge for renting. When I bought tanks, it made sense to buy them if you used less than a couple tanks a year. That varies from place to place, though. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Sun Sep 25 00:34:52 2011 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 23:34:52 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <997A3A0B21D6484F9FBD4DA16FFC6352@delld520> << So a local guy has some 200 c.f. oxygen bottles. I'm going to buy them so I don't have to rent them. He's also got an 80 c.f. acetylene bottle he offered me. I'm checking to see if the local place will exchange it, but provided it will, is it worth buying the 80 c.f. over renting a 200 c.f. tank? It's not the cost I'm thinking about so much as having to constantly re-fill the 80 c.f. tank. I'll have two 200 c.f. oxygen bottles, so I could go a good long time on those. I know I'll use more oxygen than acetylene, but I don't remember how much. Should I keep the 200 c.f. rental, or swap it out for the 80 c.f. I buy (provided they'll swap that one). Thanks. >> If the tank is inexpensive and you are able to get it filled I would take it. Either you will find it lasts for your needs or it doesn't and it can become a backup for whenever the one you use as your standard runs out. We have propane heat at home and the few times the 250 gallon tank ran out it was very nice to be able to attach one of our backup 5 gallon BBQ tanks. Lasts long enough for someone to come out and get the big one refilled. That could become the job of this 80 ft tank. Or it will last long enough to be your primary. Mark Miller From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Sep 25 10:18:24 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:18:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? In-Reply-To: <997A3A0B21D6484F9FBD4DA16FFC6352@delld520> References: <997A3A0B21D6484F9FBD4DA16FFC6352@delld520> Message-ID: In NJ, all the places I know just do exchanges on acetylene bottles. So if you buy a bottle and there is something wrong with it (out of date?) and they won't take it as an exchange, you would have wasted your money. Thy guy told me that there is only one place in NJ that actually fills them, and everybody else simply exchanges them and sends the empties back to the filling station. The place I usually go to changed hands a couple of years ago, and now they don't fill any gas cylinders at all, just exchange them like Home Depot does with barbeque grill propane tanks. Doug On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 2:34 AM, Mark Miller wrote: > << > > So a local guy has some 200 c.f. oxygen bottles. I'm going to buy them so I > don't have to rent them. He's also got an 80 c.f. acetylene bottle he > offered me. I'm checking to see if the local place will exchange it, but > provided it will, is it worth buying the 80 c.f. over renting a 200 c.f. > tank? From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sun Sep 25 14:30:07 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 16:30:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] High temp adhesives Message-ID: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> Hey Guys - off topic, but... Can anyone suggest an adhesive that is high-temp capable, but not necessarily super strong? I have a gas log fireplace. The "logs" are some sort of cement or ceramic material, and have cast-in metal dowels to hold the logs together. I took them apart to clean, and a couple of the dowels broke out, with the cement material around them cracking out. A decent gap filling adhesive like an epoxy would seem ideal, but JB Weld for example says it's only good to 600 degrees. I don't know how hot these thing really get, but there is a propane flame around them. -Thanks, Wayne From eltonclark at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 16:51:12 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 17:51:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] High temp adhesives In-Reply-To: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> References: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> Message-ID: *I guess I'd hit an auto parts store and look for muffler sealer if there's not some specialized product . . * On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Wayne wrote: > Hey Guys - off topic, but... > > Can anyone suggest an adhesive that is high-temp capable, but not > necessarily super strong? I have a gas log fireplace. The "logs" are some > sort of cement or ceramic material, and have cast-in metal dowels to hold > the logs together. I took them apart to clean, and a couple of the dowels > broke out, with the cement material around them cracking out. > > A decent gap filling adhesive like an epoxy would seem ideal, but JB Weld > for example says it's only good to 600 degrees. I don't know how hot these > thing really get, but there is a propane flame around them. > > -Thanks, Wayne > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com From bk13 at earthlink.net Sun Sep 25 17:17:58 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 16:17:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] High temp adhesives In-Reply-To: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> References: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4E7FB6A6.1030208@earthlink.net> Wayne - I have not used it myself, but 3M Fire Block Sealant FB 136 might fit the bill. $5.97 in the caulk section at Home Depot and I'm sure many other places. You can read the spec sheet at 3M's website. They give instructions on patching fire brick, so it should do the logs. Brian On 9/25/2011 1:30 PM, Wayne wrote: > Hey Guys - off topic, but... > > Can anyone suggest an adhesive that is high-temp capable, but not > necessarily super strong? I have a gas log fireplace. The "logs" are > some sort of cement or ceramic material, and have cast-in metal dowels > to hold the logs together. I took them apart to clean, and a couple > of the dowels broke out, with the cement material around them cracking > out. > > A decent gap filling adhesive like an epoxy would seem ideal, but JB > Weld for example says it's only good to 600 degrees. I don't know how > hot these thing really get, but there is a propane flame around them. > > -Thanks, Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 17:23:30 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:23:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] High temp adhesives In-Reply-To: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> References: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4E7FB7F2.4070300@comcast.net> On 9/25/2011 4:30 PM, Wayne wrote: > Hey Guys - off topic, but... > > Can anyone suggest an adhesive that is high-temp capable, but not > necessarily super strong? I have a gas log fireplace. The "logs" are > some sort of cement or ceramic material, and have cast-in metal dowels > to hold the logs together. I took them apart to clean, and a couple > of the dowels broke out, with the cement material around them cracking > out. > > A decent gap filling adhesive like an epoxy would seem ideal, but JB > Weld for example says it's only good to 600 degrees. I don't know how > hot these thing really get, but there is a propane flame around them. >From http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flame-temperatures-gases-d_422.html Propane burns at 1,980 Celsius. I' d go with something like Dap 18854 Stove and Fireplace Mortar. Might be at the big box stores or a wood stove/fireplace store. Peter T. From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Sep 25 17:41:29 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:41:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] High temp adhesives In-Reply-To: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> References: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> Message-ID: I bet metal casting plaster or dental stone would work great. The challenge would to be to avoid having to buy a 50 lb sack... Doug On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Wayne wrote: > Hey Guys - off topic, but... > > Can anyone suggest an adhesive that is high-temp capable, but not > necessarily super strong? I have a gas log fireplace. The "logs" are some > sort of cement or ceramic material, and have cast-in metal dowels to hold > the logs together. I took them apart to clean, and a couple of the dowels > broke out, with the cement material around them cracking out. > > A decent gap filling adhesive like an epoxy would seem ideal, but JB Weld > for example says it's only good to 600 degrees. I don't know how hot these > thing really get, but there is a propane flame around them. > > -Thanks, Wayne From bjzwissler at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 17:52:00 2011 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:52:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recommendation on Four Post Lifts Message-ID: <4E7FBEA0.20902@gmail.com> Hello all, I'm looking to acquire a new project car for the winter, but if I do it'll displace one of my LBCs from the "shop" and I'll be out of space to get my daily driver in the "non-shop" garage. It seems a four post lift would be a good solution to double up. The shop is not suitable for the lift due to low ceilings, but the "non-shop" garage has 10 foot ceilings and is otherwise a pretty typical home garage with a single, double wide overhead door and little extra length. Even with the typical garage stuff stored at the end, I've got 220" of length and 114" of width for parking. I've got a roll up standard overhead door and I'd have to do something with it to get it to hug the ceiling. The "top" car would be the TR4A or TR8 and the "bottom" car would be my short cab, standard bed, 2WD Ford Ranger. I've been looking at the Bendpak HD7P and I'm interested in any suggestions, alternatives, lessons learned, etc. before I go further. Thanks, Ben.... -- Ben Zwissler bjzwissler at gmail.com Columbus, IN 1966 Triumph TR4A 1980 Triumph TR8 2007 Mazda RX8 2003 Honda ST1300 2005 Harley-Davidson V-ROD From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Sep 25 18:31:19 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 17:31:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] High temp adhesives In-Reply-To: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> References: <4E7F8F4F.2060909@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <09fa01cc7be3$9c6eee10$0301a8c0@randall> > A decent gap filling adhesive like an epoxy would seem ideal, but JB > Weld for example says it's only good to 600 degrees. I don't > know how > hot these thing really get, but there is a propane flame around them. Sounds like a job for "refractory cement". Propane/air can reach almost 2000C, and while I doubt your fireplace is getting that hot, it's probably getting a lot hotter than the 600F that JB Weld is rated for. But I'm no expert here, just my guess from reading about how to build kilns and such. -- Randall From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Sep 25 19:32:26 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:32:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recommendation on Four Post Lifts In-Reply-To: <4E7FBEA0.20902@gmail.com> References: <4E7FBEA0.20902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <903C356F7B2B4DE4BD641F1844F6C763@EricJRussellPC> 10' is likely a minimum for parking the pick up underneath. You'd need the add the heights of the two vehicles, the ramp thickness (4"-6" typically) then add ~ 6" to raise the lift up to a locking position and allow for lifting it a couple of inches off the locks to then lower it. >From browsing the forums at Garage Journal (www.garagejournal.com) BendPak owners love their lifts. They have a great customer service reputation. I bought a four post lift from Direct Lift. I wanted a lift that'd fit my small cars (MGA/Alfa Romeo Spider) and also fit my F250 Super Duty. The Direct Lift Pro Park 9 has ramps that are wider than other models. Thus they are close enough together to fit the MG & wide enough to fir the truck. The Bend Pak has a model that allows one ramp to be moved (made wider/narrower) but that required unbolting/bolting and made the use of a jacking bridge problematic. Our garage has 11'8" ceilings. I spec'd high lift tracks and a jack shaft door opener. The door opener is mounted on either the left or right side of the header above the door opening - nothing in the way above the parking space. As you compare prices be sure to include shipping. I contacted a local distributor for Direct Lift. They were great to work with. They had the unit I wanted but at another location. They told me they'd waive the usual shipping fee if I was willing to wait until they had a truck coming from the other location (a matter of a couple of weeks). I then had a friend with a roll-back truck pick it up for me. Note that delivery to a residential address can add a lot to the delivery fees. Then you have to have a way to get it off the truck (like a fork lift). Feel free to ask for more info or photos. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Zwissler" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:52 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Recommendation on Four Post Lifts > Hello all, > > I'm looking to acquire a new project car for the winter, but if I do it'll > displace one of my LBCs from the "shop" and I'll be out of space to get my > daily driver in the "non-shop" garage. It seems a four post lift would > be a good solution to double up. The shop is not suitable for the lift > due to low ceilings, but the "non-shop" garage has 10 foot ceilings and is > otherwise a pretty typical home garage with a single, double wide overhead > door and little extra length. Even with the typical garage stuff stored > at the end, I've got 220" of length and 114" of width for parking. I've > got a roll up standard overhead door and I'd have to do something with it > to get it to hug the ceiling. > > The "top" car would be the TR4A or TR8 and the "bottom" car would be my > short cab, standard bed, 2WD Ford Ranger. I've been looking at the > Bendpak HD7P and I'm interested in any suggestions, alternatives, lessons > learned, etc. before I go further. > > Thanks, Ben.... From parkanzky at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 19:44:23 2011 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:44:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recommendation on Four Post Lifts In-Reply-To: <4E7FBEA0.20902@gmail.com> References: <4E7FBEA0.20902@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ben, I bought a Direct Lift Pro Park 8 from Greg Smith Equipment a few years ago and I've been very happy with it. It's very sturdy and feels quite safe to me. The locking ladders seem to be pretty fool-proof. I also have a 10' ceiling in my garage and I use the lift to stack my Elise and either our '09 TDI Jetta or our '10 TDI Golf. To deal with the door, I had the tracks raised to the ceiling with a 'track extension kit' or whatever it's called (I had a pro install it for next to nothing) and had a jackshaft opener installed at the same time (A Liftmaster 3800). You don't need a jackshaft opener on a double door because the opener will end up between the two bays in the ceiling, but I didn't have an opener on my third bay so I moved the conventional opener over there and got the new one for the big door. The coolest feature of that opener is the motion sensor for the overhead light. I love walking into the garage at night and having the light come on for me without having to hit any buttons. A couple friends and I put the lift together in a leisurely afternoon. The only thing that I'd do differently if I were to do it again would be to skip the trolly jack that they sell for the lift. It was very expensive, weighs a ton (although I set up a cart to make moving it on and off the lift much easier) and has a short throw. So short that it won't get most cars off their tires in one cycle. You have to jack the car up as much as you can, put stands under it, drop the jack and add blocks and then lift again. Probably not an issue for you if you only plan to use the lift for storage. Also, there's a flow restrictor on the hydraulic line coming from the cylinder that limits the rate at which the lift can be lowered. I'm all for safety, but it makes it painfully slow, especially when it's unloaded. If I ever have reason to drain the hydraulic fluid, I am going to either remove that restrictor completely or replace it with one just a bit less restrictive. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but I keep the lift all the way up and out of the way when I'm not using it. When I do need to shuffle cars around and put one up, it's annoying waiting for the thing to get to the ground. FYI, Greg Smith will negotiate prices, especially if you buy multiple items. I got the lift, the trolly jack, the Atlas 21 tool cabinet and an adjustable height, rolling work table for working under the lift and I remember that they knocked a decent bit off of the order. Let me know if you have any specific questions. -Paul On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 7:52 PM, Ben Zwissler wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm looking to acquire a new project car for the winter, but if I do it'll > displace one of my LBCs from the "shop" and I'll be out of space to get my > daily driver in the "non-shop" garage. It seems a four post lift would be > a good solution to double up. The shop is not suitable for the lift due to > low ceilings, but the "non-shop" garage has 10 foot ceilings and is > otherwise a pretty typical home garage with a single, double wide overhead > door and little extra length. Even with the typical garage stuff stored at > the end, I've got 220" of length and 114" of width for parking. I've got a > roll up standard overhead door and I'd have to do something with it to get > it to hug the ceiling. > > The "top" car would be the TR4A or TR8 and the "bottom" car would be my > short cab, standard bed, 2WD Ford Ranger. I've been looking at the Bendpak > HD7P and I'm interested in any suggestions, alternatives, lessons learned, > etc. before I go further. > > Thanks, Ben.... > > > -- > Ben Zwissler > bjzwissler at gmail.com > Columbus, IN > 1966 Triumph TR4A > 1980 Triumph TR8 > 2007 Mazda RX8 > 2003 Honda ST1300 > 2005 Harley-Davidson V-ROD From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 06:25:20 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:25:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80 cubic foot acetylene bottle? In-Reply-To: References: <997A3A0B21D6484F9FBD4DA16FFC6352@delld520> Message-ID: <4E806F30.1090604@gmail.com> That's how they do it here--you can buy or rent a tank, but either way when you need more gas they're not going to fill the tank you drove up with, while you wait. They give you a new tank and the tank you used to own is now theirs, and you own the new tank they give you , I suppose. The primary difference seems to be whether they're charging you each month for the tank or not. But yeah, it's vital you make sure they'll accept the tank you buy. Otherwise it's just garage art. On 9/25/2011 12:18 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > In NJ, all the places I know just do exchanges on acetylene bottles. So if > you buy a bottle and there is something wrong with it (out of date?) and > they won't take it as an exchange, you would have wasted your money. > > Thy guy told me that there is only one place in NJ that actually fills them, > and everybody else simply exchanges them and sends the empties back to the > filling station. The place I usually go to changed hands a couple of years > ago, and now they don't fill any gas cylinders at all, just exchange them > like Home Depot does with barbeque grill propane tanks. From lspector at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 09:24:29 2011 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:24:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recommendation on Four Post Lifts In-Reply-To: <4E7FBEA0.20902@gmail.com> References: <4E7FBEA0.20902@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ben, I bought a Bendpak HD9-XW (extra wide/tall) about 5 years ago from asedeals.com. It's a very well made lift, solid and heavy. Mine's the 220V version, and it requires air to operate the safety lock releases. You can get a 110V version if you ask, but I've heard it runs more slowly. I use it to store whatever car I'm not driving at the time- either my MR2 or my Integra, with the other parked underneath. I had mine drop shipped to a local hydraulic shop, and they delivered/installed it. In hindsight- I could've done it myself, as long as I had help to raise things into place (did I mention that it's HEAVY?). There were a couple of options that I went with at the urging of other owners- and they've definitely been worth the added cost. One was aluminum ramps. It comes with steel- but they hang down in normal use and get in the way of parking underneath. They're also very heavy and a pain to remove. I also bought the RJ45 rolling jack. It's not cheap, but it's very handy for doing suspension work. Let me know if you have any questions. -Larry On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 7:52 PM, Ben Zwissler wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm looking to acquire a new project car for the winter, but if I do it'll > displace one of my LBCs from the "shop" and I'll be out of space to get my > daily driver in the "non-shop" garage. It seems a four post lift would be > a good solution to double up. The shop is not suitable for the lift due to > low ceilings, but the "non-shop" garage has 10 foot ceilings and is > otherwise a pretty typical home garage with a single, double wide overhead > door and little extra length. Even with the typical garage stuff stored at > the end, I've got 220" of length and 114" of width for parking. I've got a > roll up standard overhead door and I'd have to do something with it to get > it to hug the ceiling. > > The "top" car would be the TR4A or TR8 and the "bottom" car would be my > short cab, standard bed, 2WD Ford Ranger. I've been looking at the Bendpak > HD7P and I'm interested in any suggestions, alternatives, lessons learned, > etc. before I go further. > > Thanks, Ben....