From jamesf at groupwbench.org Mon Oct 10 07:15:59 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:15:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators Message-ID: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> For the ~30 years I've been playing with vehicles, regulators have been a mysterious black box to be immediately replaced (right after the battery) if anything is wrong with the charging system. I have a 6v Italian motorcycle that charges at 10v, maybe higher but I shut it off to not kill the battery. Is there a reason they can't be tested and/or replaced with any other regulator of similar current carrying capacity? I mean, I'm sure mine is toast since it grounds through the frame and I ran it with all the mounting bolts loose for a day. But it looks like an original replacement isn't available, so why not a tractor or Vespa replacement? From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 10 09:08:18 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:08:18 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> Regulators are matched to the generator in several ways. One is whether it grounds the field or connects it to the output (which in turn depends on how the field windings are connected inside the generator). They must limit the output current to the appropriate value. And usually there is a resistor that sets the "off" current to a value that is appropriate to the vehicle. This resistor improves the life of the regulator contacts. If those 3 things match, and you deal with any wiring changes required, then I think a substitute regulator would work OK. One alternative might be to take your old regulator to one of the places that provide upgraded electronic internals. Another might be to disassemble and repair your existing regulator. They are pretty simple devices, and as long as the mechanical parts are not damaged, usually repairable. Even shorted windings can be rewound, although last time I did it, I ruined the pole piece getting it apart and had to make a new one on the lathe. -- Randall From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Mon Oct 10 10:27:53 2011 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:27:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <003f01cc8769$90c3f920$b24beb60$@cablespeed.com> I don't know anything about those fancy Eyetalian voltage regulators but those British Lucas regulators operate on smoke......If you let the smoke leak out you are screwed. ;-) From jamesf at groupwbench.org Mon Oct 10 10:52:09 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:52:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2011, at 11:08 AM, Randall wrote: > > This resistor improves the life of the regulator contacts. I guess I should have mentioned, mine is electronic not mechanical. Mechanical I could probably look at and figure out. Electronic...ah...I remember building Heathkits in high school...my color organ made more smoke than light... jim From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 10 13:08:14 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:08:14 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <03e701cc877f$f6b5aec0$e4210c40$@rr.com> > I guess I should have mentioned, mine is electronic not mechanical. Ah, I see! In that case, the resistor is less important, as long as it isn't too low a value (which could cause overcharging under light load conditions). But the other two conditions (plus matching ground polarity) still apply. Seems like a strange configuration, though. American cars went to alternators several years before electronic regulators, and even my 71 Triumph has an alternator with a partially mechanical regulator. Perhaps I should ask, does your generator have a commutator, or slip rings? -- Randall From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Oct 10 13:33:01 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:33:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4E93486D.6090305@xxiii.com> On 10/10/2011 12:52 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > I guess I should have mentioned, mine is electronic not mechanical. Mechanical > I could probably look at and figure out. Electronic...ah...I remember building > Heathkits in high school...my color organ made more smoke than light... Wow, I was gonna say I'd never heard of a "mechanical voltage regulator" but I guess I did a long time ago. I'm only 45, mind ya'. Surely there is some solid state one you can retrofit (unless you're really into keeping it original.) Has to be rated >= to the max current of the alternator, probably around 50 - 80 amps. Bigger is better. It will need a decent heat sink, esp dependent on the delta voltage between the alternator's output and the regulated voltage. I'd check around on the forums for whatever kinda car it is and see if there's some recommendation. Chances are there's some common solid state regulator you can score at Auto Zone for $12 and slap in there. -Wayne From jamesf at groupwbench.org Mon Oct 10 15:01:59 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:01:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <03e701cc877f$f6b5aec0$e4210c40$@rr.com> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> <03e701cc877f$f6b5aec0$e4210c40$@rr.com> Message-ID: <1256010F-3AF8-4D7F-BA2B-912862374597@groupwbench.org> On Oct 10, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Randall wrote: > > Seems like a strange configuration, though. American cars went to > alternators several years before electronic regulators, and even my 71 > Triumph has an alternator with a partially mechanical regulator. Perhaps I > should ask, does your generator have a commutator, or slip rings? Neither- it's an alternator, and it's built into and under the flywheel which has permanent magnets. From the manual: "The stator is provided with 5 charging coils which supply the current needed to re-charge the battery. The 6th coil fitted on the stator feeds current to the ignition system. The AC current is rectified by the electronic rectifier-regulator and supplied to the battery. " The alternator schematic looks something like this: http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/statore01.jpg And the regulator: http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/spann1.jpg http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/spann2.jpg I suppose I could open it up and see what doesn't look like the rest, and replace that :-) Rumor has it I can buy a replacement for $125, which considering how much time I'd put into effecting a repair, is cheap. But I'm mostly interested in how these things work. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 10 16:18:43 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:18:43 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <4E93486D.6090305@xxiii.com> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> <4E93486D.6090305@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <041801cc879a$92bc2960$b8347c20$@rr.com> > Has to be rated >= to the max current > of the alternator, probably around 50 - 80 amps. In general, alternators don't need current regulation and hence the regulator doesn't know or care how much current the alternator can produce. For example, older GM alternators used the same (internal) regulator from 40 amps all the way to 110 amps. For an alternator, the regulator only controls output voltage (and perhaps the lamp on the dash). But old DC generators (which is what I thought we were talking about) are a different kettle of fish. They are basically identical to a DC motor, and so if the engine is stopped (or turning very slowly), they will try to act as motors and turn the engine. This means the 'regulator' has to disconnect the generator from the battery when the engine is stopped, to prevent the battery being discharged through the generator. More importantly, DC generators will easily produce enough current to overheat and burn up the armature, so accurate current regulation is important. I've burned up more than I care to remember, by allowing the current to go to 25-30 amps on a unit rated for 21 amps. Hence my question about whether the unit in question has slip rings (and diodes, making it an alternator), or a commutator (making it a DC generator). Oddly enough, my introduction to Heathkit was rebuilding a friend's kit that didn't work (a grid dip oscillator). It worked great when I got done with it. Taught me at least a bit about RF construction techniques as well. He later gave me the GDO, but I have no idea where it is today. Or him, for that matter. -- Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 10 16:40:50 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:40:50 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <1256010F-3AF8-4D7F-BA2B-912862374597@groupwbench.org> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> <03e701cc877f$f6b5aec0$e4210c40$@rr.com> <1256010F-3AF8-4D7F-BA2B-912862374597@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <041d01cc879d$adb7a250$0926e6f0$@rr.com> > Neither- it's an alternator, and it's built into and under the > flywheel which > has permanent magnets. Aha again! In that case, please ignore everything I said before. I thought we were talking DC generator as found on old cars, where the regulator controls the field. Permanent magnet alternators are yet another kettle of fish. For one thing, the 'regulator' is also providing the rectification to turn AC from the windings into DC. Since the magnetic field cannot be controlled, it also has to throttle the output in some way. Looking at your photos, I would guess that those are SCRs, and that the regulator uses some sort of phase-change circuitry to adjust how early or late in the cycle the SCRs are triggered. Kind of like a lamp dimmer, except only conducting for the right polarity. But that's just a SWAG, not to be taken internally. I've not ridden a bike for many years, but I believe some variation of that is still common today. If so, it shouldn't be too hard to find a modern equivalent; although you might wind up using only one phase of a 3-phase rectifier/regulator. -- Randall From jibjib at att.net Mon Oct 10 17:08:05 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:08:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: Go see your favorite old-time alternator guy, or ask the kids with the really loud stereos where they go for alternators and you will find a qualified alternator guy. I put a little alternator from a 70's civic in my Triumph TR3. (the shaft was the right size for the pulley and it was only 35 amps, perfect for not having to modify the system much) It did not have an internal regulator. My alternator guy found me an electronic regulator that even had a connection for the alternator light and cost all of $30. Works like a charm and was small enough that I could gut an old TR3 mechanical regulator housing and easily drop it in there. The regulator was about 1x1x0.5 inches in size. I would have do to some serious digging to find the paperwork on it though. It's been in there for years. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 6:16 AM To: shop-talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators For the ~30 years I've been playing with vehicles, regulators have been a mysterious black box to be immediately replaced (right after the battery) if anything is wrong with the charging system. I have a 6v Italian motorcycle that charges at 10v, maybe higher but I shut it off to not kill the battery. Is there a reason they can't be tested and/or replaced with any other regulator of similar current carrying capacity? I mean, I'm sure mine is toast since it grounds through the frame and I ran it with all the mounting bolts loose for a day. But it looks like an original replacement isn't available, so why not a tractor or Vespa replacement? _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Oct 10 21:26:13 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:26:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Voltage regulators In-Reply-To: <041d01cc879d$adb7a250$0926e6f0$@rr.com> References: <50A4B98D-E82D-4C49-9AF3-B0EC6775FAD2@groupwbench.org> <01f101cc875e$71fc2f90$0501a8c0@randall> <03e701cc877f$f6b5aec0$e4210c40$@rr.com> <1256010F-3AF8-4D7F-BA2B-912862374597@groupwbench.org> <041d01cc879d$adb7a250$0926e6f0$@rr.com> Message-ID: Unlike most regulators, that one is not potted. So it is in theory fixable, if you can identify what component is bad, and get a replacement for it. The circuit may be nothing but a rectifier and a voltage regulator with current limiting. A constant voltage of 7.0 volts or so will charge a 6-volt battery OK. In any case, it is entirely different than the type of regulators used with alternators. Doug On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Randall wrote: > > Neither- it's an alternator, and it's built into and under the > > flywheel which > > has permanent magnets. > > Aha again! In that case, please ignore everything I said before. I > thought > we were talking DC generator as found on old cars, where the regulator > controls the field. Permanent magnet alternators are yet another kettle of > fish. > > For one thing, the 'regulator' is also providing the rectification to turn > AC from the windings into DC. Since the magnetic field cannot be > controlled, it also has to throttle the output in some way. Looking at > your > photos, I would guess that those are SCRs, and that the regulator uses some > sort of phase-change circuitry to adjust how early or late in the cycle the > SCRs are triggered. Kind of like a lamp dimmer, except only conducting for > the right polarity. > > But that's just a SWAG, not to be taken internally. > > I've not ridden a bike for many years, but I believe some variation of that > is still common today. If so, it shouldn't be too hard to find a modern > equivalent; although you might wind up using only one phase of a 3-phase > rectifier/regulator. > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Oct 11 10:23:42 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:23:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] hidden hitch Message-ID: <2C294215298743DE8352702F39126288@OwnerPC> I'm building a '53 Ford F-100 truck and want to install a hidden hitch to pull a small utility trailer. (less than 1000#) I'd like the receiver mounted behind a roll pan (hidden) and it will be accessed thru a drop down tag frame to insert the drawbar and ball... of course they don't list a '53 in their "make/model lists" so I'm wondering if anyone remembers seeing a table that lists dimensions of available hitches where I can find one that will fit my frame dimensions ?? thanks From mbarre at juno.com Tue Oct 11 11:48:43 2011 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:48:43 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] hidden hitch Message-ID: <20111011.134843.7083.0@webmail51.vgs.untd.com> John, I think the Curt website had a page where it listed the dimensions. I see receivers on Craigs list very cheap for various vehicles all the time. May be easier to just see what you require and then query sellers when they post them near you for their dimensions. Matt ---------- Original Message ---------- "john niolon" asked: I'm wondering if anyone remembers seeing a table that lists dimensions of available hitches where I can find one that will fit my frame dimensions ?? From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Oct 12 22:01:50 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, David Hillman wrote: > Unbelievably to me, I searched the shop-talk archives, and found not one > mention RapidAir products ( ie RapidAir, Duratec, Maxline ). > > http://www.rapidairproducts.com/index.asp > > I refuse to believe that I've found something no here knew about, so... > comments? Experience? I'm considering installing the Maxline (3/4") system, > because the original RapidAir is only 1/2" and apparently rated for 150psi. > I may or may not buy the 175 psi compressor I'm looking at, but it seems > silly to save a few bucks here. Do not ever buy this product. Do not allow anyone you know ( or, at least, like ) to buy it. Do not believe anything on that website, except the price ( and the 'master kit' only has about half what you need for a very minimal install ). I should've just used regular copper, it would've been so much easier and faster, and cheaper, too I think. I might even tear this crap down, eat the $200, and replace it with copper. -- David Hillman From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 05:02:43 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:02:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E96C553.8080807@gmail.com> Tell us what happened, David! Sounds bad. On 10/13/2011 12:01 AM, David Hillman wrote: > > Do not ever buy this product. Do not allow anyone you know ( or, > at least, like ) to buy it. Do not believe anything on that website, > except the price ( and the 'master kit' only has about half what you > need for a very minimal install ). > > I should've just used regular copper, it would've been so much > easier and faster, and cheaper, too I think. > > I might even tear this crap down, eat the $200, and replace it with > copper. From r_rochlin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 13 07:11:55 2011 From: r_rochlin at hotmail.com (Bob Rochlin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:11:55 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my air lines for about 10 years with no issues. The PVC has a bursting rating or 600PSi (I run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and inexpensive. I've had no issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:01:50 -0400 > From: hillman at planet-torque.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir > > On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, David Hillman wrote: > > Unbelievably to me, I searched the shop-talk archives, and found not one > > mention RapidAir products ( ie RapidAir, Duratec, Maxline ). > > > > http://www.rapidairproducts.com/index.asp > > > > I refuse to believe that I've found something no here knew about, so... > > comments? Experience? I'm considering installing the Maxline (3/4") system, > > because the original RapidAir is only 1/2" and apparently rated for 150psi. > > I may or may not buy the 175 psi compressor I'm looking at, but it seems > > silly to save a few bucks here. > > Do not ever buy this product. Do not allow anyone you know ( or, at > least, like ) to buy it. Do not believe anything on that website, except > the price ( and the 'master kit' only has about half what you need for a > very minimal install ). > > I should've just used regular copper, it would've been so much easier > and faster, and cheaper, too I think. > > I might even tear this crap down, eat the $200, and replace it with > copper. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/r_rochlin at hotmail.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Oct 13 10:36:40 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E96C553.8080807@gmail.com> References: <4E96C553.8080807@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Scott Hall wrote: > Tell us what happened, David! Sounds bad. The short story is, you can install Rapid Air on, or in, your walls... but there's no way to make it look decent if left exposed, and I would never trust it inside walls. If you don't care about how it looks, and leaks don't bother you much, it's usable I guess. The tubing basically doesn't unroll from the 18" diameter coil it ships as. Their site brags about a new tube material that unrolls better than the original type, but given my experience with the new material, I honestly can't imagine what the previous generation was like. They recommend leaving it in the sun for a few hours, to relax it... I put it out in the 80 to 90 degree sun for more than a month, and it made no difference at all. It's still like trying to hang a blue Slinky on your walls. I also tried cutting pieces and hanging weights on them, to stretch it straight, but that doesn't work either. Eventually, I found a way to install the tubing and make it look almost acceptable. Basically, I secured a fitting on each end, mounted one to the wall, and pulled as hard as I could on the tube to straighten it, while attaching either a 'clamp' or a fitting to the wall. The 'clamps' are a joke, and will hold the tube from falling off the wall, but won't hold it tight enough to keep it straight. This method was okay until I pressurized the system last night, and found that the fittings aren't strong enough to withstand being pulled on that hard, so the tubes popped out. Some people run the tube inside PVC just to get it to look decent, which is stupid, IMO. Two of the four fittings in my kit were defective, and leaked. Luckily, I guess, I had ordered more fittings because the 'master kit' is so skimpy, so I had extras. What money you save buying this kit is quickly used up buying the things it doesn't include, or that you have to replace. I don't think copper would've been much more money at all, and sweating pipes just isn't hard enough to make dealing with this kit worthwhile. Several fittings developed leaks when the temperature dropped 30* over the past couple weeks, so I can't really imagine running it in-wall. Plus, since there's no way to make straight runs, every screw or nail in your wall would be like playing Russian Roulette with your air system. Forget about trying to have drains at low points either way, since none of your runs will be straight. It's only redeeming value is that it's cheap, but it's still not worth it. -- David Hillman From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Oct 13 10:55:31 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Bob Rochlin wrote: > I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my air > lines for about 10 years with no issues. The PVC has a bursting rating > or 600PSi (I run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and > inexpensive. I've had no issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob Bob, Fyi, that's generally a bad idea, and neither OSHA nor most building codes allow PVC for compressed air. The PVC manufacturers even insist that you don't use it for that purpose. Here's a length thread that cites many reasons why, but the biggest is that the plastic becomes brittle over time and explodes. http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Compressed_air_delivery_system.html Glad you got ten years out of it, hope you aren't nearby when it pops. Thanks. -- David Hillman From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Oct 13 11:37:34 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:37:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> On 10/13/2011 9:11 AM, Bob Rochlin wrote: > I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my air lines > for about 10 years with no issues. The PVC has a bursting rating or 600PSi (I > run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and inexpensive. I've had no > issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob And of course everyone is gonna jump in with "do not use PVC, it can explode and shatter". But you know what -- I've seen it used in multiple industrial air systems, including a local NASCAR shop (Andy Petree - I now own his workbench and sandblaster) and never heard of failures. I suspect it's kinda like "do not power up your cell phone on the plane, or it will immediately nose dive into the ground" -WC From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:30:18 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:30:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Bob Rochlin wrote: > I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my air lines > for about 10 years with no issues. B The PVC has a bursting rating or 600PSi (I > run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and inexpensive. B I've had no > issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob > Exposed PVC is totally unsuitable for the transmission of compressed air. It will eventually shatter. If you're lucky, no one gets hurt. If you're not, you or someone else gets killed. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:18:52 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:18:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> References: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Wayne wrote: > And of course everyone is gonna jump in with "do not use PVC, it can explode > and shatter". But you know what -- I've seen it used in multiple industrial > air systems, including a local NASCAR shop (Andy Petree - I now own his > workbench and sandblaster) and never heard of failures. It may take some age and strain, and you may never push it past that point to where it will fail. But if it does (and the chances of it failing are better than the chances of black iron or copper failiing) then it ~will~ shatter. It was known to be a bad idea 40 years ago. http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html Sure, it isn't likely. But it's not unlikely. And I wouldn't want to be around when it happens. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:34:12 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:34:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> I've been five feet from a pvc air line when it exploded. It does happen. Made a huge boom and sprayed shrapnel. A guy three feet away caught some in the face and arm. Though the fact that I was five feet from it and am just fine tends to mitigate that argument to people that want to use pvc for air lines. I dunno, I won't use pvc for air anymore. I have, however, flown 250,000 miles (at least) having forgotten my phone was powered up in my backpack, and the plane has never so much as hiccuped. I tend to be skeptical that a $200 million flying radio is going to be equipped with anything that has any issues with a phone's cellular radio. I mean, most planes in the U.S. are rarely more than 40,000 feet off the ground, and most of the flights I take are at about 20,000 feet. That's four miles. My phone easily has a range of four miles, which means all those phones on the ground are emitting something that could interfere with the plane too. The cell phone frenzy is one of those things that will convince us that we were retarded in 30 years. Having said that, I'm very happy no one can use their cell phone to talk on a plane. That'd be nightmarish. I'd rather they just outlaw talking into your phone and eject non-compliers. You only have to toss a few before everyone else would quit. If you want to sit quietly and play Angry Birds, knock yourself out. On 10/13/2011 1:37 PM, Wayne wrote: > And of course everyone is gonna jump in with "do not use PVC, it can > explode and shatter". But you know what -- I've seen it used in > multiple industrial air systems, including a local NASCAR shop (Andy > Petree - I now own his workbench and sandblaster) and never heard of > failures. > > I suspect it's kinda like "do not power up your cell phone on the > plane, or it will immediately nose dive into the ground" From jem at milleredp.com Thu Oct 13 14:37:56 2011 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:37:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E974C24.9040307@milleredp.com> > Exposed PVC is totally unsuitable for the transmission of compressed > air. It will eventually shatter. If you're lucky, no one gets hurt. > If you're not, you or someone else gets killed. On the day you install it, schedule 40 PVC is very strong. But... If it's exposed to impact, copper pipe will dent, plastic pipe will crack. If it's exposed to the sun plastic pipe will become brittle from UV. And, of course, remember that if and when the thing pops, 100psi of compressed gas (air) is nothing like 100psi of non-compressible liquid (water.) John. From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Oct 13 14:49:52 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Wayne wrote: > And of course everyone is gonna jump in with "do not use PVC, it can explode > and shatter". But you know what -- I've seen it used in multiple industrial > air systems, including a local NASCAR shop (Andy Petree - I now own his > workbench and sandblaster) and never heard of failures. > > I suspect it's kinda like "do not power up your cell phone on the plane, or > it will immediately nose dive into the ground" There's this thing called Google... "We're seeing more incidents of explosive failure, and we're citing more employers for using PVC air system piping," said Paul Merrill, senior safety inspector in L&I's Spokane office. "It's probably just a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured in one of these explosions unless everyone pays more attention to the manufacturer's warnings," Merrill said. Last year, a section of PVC pipe being used for compressed air exploded 27 feet above a warehouse floor. A fragment of the pipe flew 60 feet and embedded itself in a roll of paper. Fortunately, nobody was in the area at the time. A PVC pipe explosion in a new plant in Selah broke an employee's nose and cut his face. PVC piping buried 3 feet underground at a Yakima manufacturing plant exploded, opening up a crater approximately 4 feet deep by 3 feet across. - http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html I'm willing to bet any shop that is owned by anyone with money and/or lawyers, lacks PVC pipe for compressed air delivery. ABS pipe, maybe... but not PVC. -- David Hillman From mikey at b2systems.com Thu Oct 13 14:50:59 2011 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:50:59 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4E974F33.8010808@b2systems.com> I have a hard time believing that some NASCAR shop would have PVC unless it was a little mom-pop shop that did not need to get inspected. I rode my motorcycle for 37 years without a accident so obviously they must be safe, oops, then soccer mom ran a stop. I also had PVC airlines for about 20 years until I learned better, I now have copper. Yes, there is PVC designed for air, I am talking about the generic variety. mike On 10/13/2011 10:37 AM, Wayne wrote: > On 10/13/2011 9:11 AM, Bob Rochlin wrote: >> I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my >> air lines >> for about 10 years with no issues. The PVC has a bursting rating or >> 600PSi (I >> run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and inexpensive. >> I've had no >> issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob > > And of course everyone is gonna jump in with "do not use PVC, it can > explode and shatter". But you know what -- I've seen it used in > multiple industrial air systems, including a local NASCAR shop (Andy > Petree - I now own his workbench and sandblaster) and never heard of > failures. > > I suspect it's kinda like "do not power up your cell phone on the > plane, or it will immediately nose dive into the ground" > > -WC > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mikey at b2systems.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Oct 13 15:41:07 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:41:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4E975AF3.90902@xxiii.com> On 10/13/2011 4:49 PM, David Hillman wrote: > There's this thing called Google... Yeah, there's this nice little site http://www.lmgtfy.com/ (let me google that for you) that is an appropriate but somewhat rude slap upside the head for just such a purpose. > Last year, a section of PVC pipe being used for compressed air exploded > 27 feet above a warehouse floor. A fragment of the pipe flew 60 feet and > embedded itself in a roll of paper. Fortunately, nobody was in the area Crikey! I've had an IED inside a clay tile pipe splatter my back with clay shrapnel, which caused no injury but was not pleasant. Guess I should take the PVC thing more seriously. Saw an industrial maintenance guy use a plumbing grade fitting on a 6000 psi nitrogen line used for leak testing hydraulics explode and almost kill someone. -w From lotuseuropa at me.com Thu Oct 13 15:49:21 2011 From: lotuseuropa at me.com (Michael Lye) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:49:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> References: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Well, I can confirm first hand the PVC will fail by explosively shattering. I had thought the same thing about the pressure ratings etc. and ran a line from the back of a shop to the front of a store. Fortunately it was above a dropped ceiling because that served to stop the shrapnel when it let go. It made a big noise when it did let go that was only connected to a small tank around 100 psi. Never did find all the pieces. About 6 inches of the pipe were badly fractured and I never did find all the pieces.The fracture occurred in the middle of a section of pipe nowhere near a joint or anything else I could identify as creating any special stress. So even though it's cheap and easy to work with I'd never do it again. Even if no one gets hurt or nothing gets damaged it just isn't worth the effort of doing it twice. Michael On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Wayne wrote: > On 10/13/2011 9:11 AM, Bob Rochlin wrote: >> I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my air lines >> for about 10 years with no issues. The PVC has a bursting rating or 600PSi (I >> run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and inexpensive. I've had no >> issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob > > And of course everyone is gonna jump in with "do not use PVC, it can explode and shatter". But you know what -- I've seen it used in multiple industrial air systems, including a local NASCAR shop (Andy Petree - I now own his workbench and sandblaster) and never heard of failures. > > I suspect it's kinda like "do not power up your cell phone on the plane, or it will immediately nose dive into the ground" > > -WC > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lotuseuropa at me.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Oct 13 17:47:49 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Scott wrote: > I dunno, I won't use pvc for air anymore. I have, however, flown 250,000 > miles (at least) having forgotten my phone was powered up in my backpack, and > the plane has never so much as hiccuped. I tend to be skeptical that a $200 > million flying radio is going to be equipped with anything that has any > issues with a phone's cellular radio. I mean, most planes in the U.S. are > rarely more than 40,000 feet off the ground, and most of the flights I take > are at about 20,000 feet. That's four miles. My phone easily has a range of > four miles, which means all those phones on the ground are emitting something > that could interfere with the plane too. The cell phone frenzy is one of > those things that will convince us that we were retarded in 30 years. It just so happens that the company I work for puts cellular modems on commercial airliners. It's how we deliver broadband internet to passengers. We have over 2000 planes flying around the country every day, squawking back and forth to the ground via standard cellular technology. We have been doing so for 3 years. The prohibition against cell use on planes is for passenger comfort, and security, not technical reasons. Largely the same reason we can't provide VOIP on commercial lines, but we can on private planes, and they can in Europe. -- David Hillman PS You'd be surprised how often commercial jets crack 40k, but it's irrelevant. We get hundreds of miles of range from our antennas. From eric at megageek.com Thu Oct 13 17:28:26 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:28:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I always hear the problem with PVC (besides it bursting) is that it doesn't cool the air and let water separate out. Also, that it causes lots of static electrical shocks (not major, just annoying) Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Bob Rochlin Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 10/13/2011 14:04 To , cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my air lines for about 10 years with no issues. The PVC has a bursting rating or 600PSi (I run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and inexpensive. I've had no issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:01:50 -0400 > From: hillman at planet-torque.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir > > On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, David Hillman wrote: > > Unbelievably to me, I searched the shop-talk archives, and found not one > > mention RapidAir products ( ie RapidAir, Duratec, Maxline ). > > > > http://www.rapidairproducts.com/index.asp > > > > I refuse to believe that I've found something no here knew about, so... > > comments? Experience? I'm considering installing the Maxline (3/4") system, > > because the original RapidAir is only 1/2" and apparently rated for 150psi. > > I may or may not buy the 175 psi compressor I'm looking at, but it seems > > silly to save a few bucks here. > > Do not ever buy this product. Do not allow anyone you know ( or, at > least, like ) to buy it. Do not believe anything on that website, except > the price ( and the 'master kit' only has about half what you need for a > very minimal install ). > > I should've just used regular copper, it would've been so much easier > and faster, and cheaper, too I think. > > I might even tear this crap down, eat the $200, and replace it with > copper. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/r_rochlin at hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Oct 13 17:56:20 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:56:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cell phones on aircraft (was Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir) In-Reply-To: <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06c501cc8a03$b4e12250$0501a8c0@randall> > My phone easily has a range of four miles, However, those other phones are not inside the same metal skin as the avionics, and are much further away. UHF Radio signals generally follow an inverse cube law, meaning every time you double the distance, the signal falls by a factor of 8. If you are 10 feet from the cockpit, and 10,000 feet from the ground, that means the ground signals are 1,000,000,000 times weaker. Some years ago, my office computer monitor developed a strange twitch every few minutes. Kind of looked like something was arcing in the high voltage section, as the image would instantly shrink and then grow back to size somewhat slower. But replacing the monitor didn't fix it. Nor did replacing the video card & cable. Finally, more by luck than anything else, I realized the problem was my new cell phone, which I had started laying on the desk nearby. Moved the phone 2 feet away, never saw the problem again. One other point, I've been privileged (?) to ride in the cockpit of some non-commercial flights. The radios they use to contact the tower have simply hideous voice quality. ANYTHING that adds more audible interference increases the chance of a mis-communication, and hence the chance of an accident. While I'm not privy to the FAA's reasoning, my guess is that audible interference is more of a concern than disrupting anything electronically. Better safe than sorry, or something like that. -- Randall From eric at megageek.com Thu Oct 13 17:36:54 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:36:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: The reasons for the phone ban is two fold. First, the FAA doesn't want to have to test every cell phone model out there. More importantly, the problem is that a cell phone 20,000 feet in the air can hit LOTS of cell towers. That means that if people were using them in the planes, they would quickly saturate towers. Plus, I agree that not having people talking on their phones is a great idea. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Scott Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 10/13/2011 18:59 To shop-talk at autox.team.net cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir I've been five feet from a pvc air line when it exploded. It does happen. Made a huge boom and sprayed shrapnel. A guy three feet away caught some in the face and arm. Though the fact that I was five feet from it and am just fine tends to mitigate that argument to people that want to use pvc for air lines. I dunno, I won't use pvc for air anymore. I have, however, flown 250,000 miles (at least) having forgotten my phone was powered up in my backpack, and the plane has never so much as hiccuped. I tend to be skeptical that a $200 million flying radio is going to be equipped with anything that has any issues with a phone's cellular radio. I mean, most planes in the U.S. are rarely more than 40,000 feet off the ground, and most of the flights I take are at about 20,000 feet. That's four miles. My phone easily has a range of four miles, which means all those phones on the ground are emitting something that could interfere with the plane too. The cell phone frenzy is one of those things that will convince us that we were retarded in 30 years. Having said that, I'm very happy no one can use their cell phone to talk on a plane. That'd be nightmarish. I'd rather they just outlaw talking into your phone and eject non-compliers. You only have to toss a few before everyone else would quit. If you want to sit quietly and play Angry Birds, knock yourself out. On 10/13/2011 1:37 PM, Wayne wrote: > And of course everyone is gonna jump in with "do not use PVC, it can > explode and shatter". But you know what -- I've seen it used in > multiple industrial air systems, including a local NASCAR shop (Andy > Petree - I now own his workbench and sandblaster) and never heard of > failures. > > I suspect it's kinda like "do not power up your cell phone on the > plane, or it will immediately nose dive into the ground" _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From jibjib at att.net Thu Oct 13 18:13:33 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:13:33 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <9D908C93EA6D407C840C87366E3E1E73@EntCent> The problem is how the PVC fails when it eventually does fail. It shatters. Copper will fail eventually too, but it does not shatter. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bob Rochlin Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:12 AM To: hillman at planet-torque.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir I'm jumping in here late, but i've been using Home Depot PVC for my air lines for about 10 years with no issues. The PVC has a bursting rating or 600PSi (I run it at about 100 PSI), is easy to work with, and inexpensive. I've had no issues with leaks, bursting etc.Bob > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:01:50 -0400 > From: hillman at planet-torque.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir > > On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, David Hillman wrote: > > Unbelievably to me, I searched the shop-talk archives, and found not one > > mention RapidAir products ( ie RapidAir, Duratec, Maxline ). > > > > http://www.rapidairproducts.com/index.asp > > > > I refuse to believe that I've found something no here knew about, so... > > comments? Experience? I'm considering installing the Maxline (3/4") system, > > because the original RapidAir is only 1/2" and apparently rated for 150psi. > > I may or may not buy the 175 psi compressor I'm looking at, but it seems > > silly to save a few bucks here. > > Do not ever buy this product. Do not allow anyone you know ( or, at > least, like ) to buy it. Do not believe anything on that website, except > the price ( and the 'master kit' only has about half what you need for a > very minimal install ). > > I should've just used regular copper, it would've been so much easier > and faster, and cheaper, too I think. > > I might even tear this crap down, eat the $200, and replace it with > copper. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/r_rochlin at hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From mark at bradakis.com Thu Oct 13 19:43:42 2011 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:43:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Team.Net service Message-ID: <20111014014342.3F3C62E0FF@bradakis.com> Team.Net is going away, I'm shutting it off tomorrow morning. Okay, relax, it is only temporary. The local power company will be doing some maintenence and repairs in the area friday, October 14th. Rather than risk frying some crucial piece of hardware due to random power flucuations I'll be shutting down the servers in the morning before I go to work. I'll be bringing them back up friday evening when the power line work is done. So the email lists, amazingly outdated web pages, forums and such will be down for most of the day. All services should be back on the air late friday, so be patient. Too bad I'm not ready to cut over to the new server, this would be a good time to do so. Oh well, so it goes. Thank you for your patience. mjb. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 21:20:17 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:20:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E97AA71.4060504@gmail.com> That's kinda the point I'm making--they're telling us that the cellular modem providing me the ability to surf the net--and its associated wi-fi radio is just peachy, but mine isn't? And for a long time people used cell phones on planes with no ill effect, and they still do elsewhere, but in the U.S., a cell phone might *bring*down*a*plane*? Color me skeptical. A bit like taking off my shoes is making me safe. Sheesh, I fly a lot and I detest the T.S.A. and all the crap associated with the false sense of security they're pissing people off so much to instill. Maybe it's getting to me. :-) I'm all for them disabling cell phones, just for the reasons you mentioned--a plane full of yammering jackasses would make flying intolerable. You ever seen the absolute douchebaggery that takes place when the wheels hit the tarmac a dozen plumbing salesmen from Valdosta have to urgently check in to see what vital messages they've missed on the 45-minute flight to Atlanta and to make sure someone--anyone--knows they're important enough to have a cell phone? You can't even wait until the thrust reversers have finished screaming? F&(#ing really? No, as far as I'm concerned a CDMA and GSM band jammer on all flights would just just fine, rendering phones ineffective anywhere within 100 feet of an aircraft. I assume such a thing must not be feasable, because I assume thousands of people have offered to pay extra just to fly on planes so equipped and airlines are nothing if not profit-seeking. And I'm not discounting what Randall said, or that you never know what could happen when radio waves start flying around. The network at my office can't make it through a full day without horking up a lung and it's at ground level and the building's not moving fast enough to turn me into jelly. Just that I'm over having some nasty skank shrill at me for no goddamn good reason when I fall asleep on a 6:00 a.m. flight and forgot to shut of my phone while we were waiting to push away from the gate and s/he's feeling intelligent because it's noticed the light's blinking through the pocket of my pants. It is infinitely more about some miserable slag having a power trip than it is keeping anyone in any fashion safe. But still, PVC will blow up on you. I've seen it. On 10/13/2011 7:47 PM, David Hillman wrote: > On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Scott wrote: >> I dunno, I won't use pvc for air anymore. I have, however, flown >> 250,000 miles (at least) having forgotten my phone was powered up in >> my backpack, and the plane has never so much as hiccuped. I tend to >> be skeptical that a $200 million flying radio is going to be equipped >> with anything that has any issues with a phone's cellular radio. I >> mean, most planes in the U.S. are rarely more than 40,000 feet off >> the ground, and most of the flights I take are at about 20,000 feet. >> That's four miles. My phone easily has a range of four miles, which >> means all those phones on the ground are emitting something that >> could interfere with the plane too. The cell phone frenzy is one of >> those things that will convince us that we were retarded in 30 years. > > It just so happens that the company I work for puts cellular modems > on commercial airliners. It's how we deliver broadband internet to > passengers. We have over 2000 planes flying around the country every > day, squawking back and forth to the ground via standard cellular > technology. We have been doing so for 3 years. > > The prohibition against cell use on planes is for passenger > comfort, and security, not technical reasons. Largely the same reason > we can't provide VOIP on commercial lines, but we can on private > planes, and they can in Europe. > > -- > David Hillman > > PS You'd be surprised how often commercial jets crack 40k, but it's > irrelevant. We get hundreds of miles of range from our antennas. From jdinnis at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 07:07:31 2011 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:07:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: I work for a company that designs and builds the computers and displays that pilots use to fly aircraft. I can tell you that they have been two confirmed incidents of a PED (personal electronic device) causing interference with these systems. One was a CD player with no wireless capability at all (just a really noisy local oscillator in exactly the wrong frequency range), the other was a laptop PC with an operating wireless card. The problem is that all electronic devices produce RF noise. Most of the consumer grade stuff is so poorly made that while the prototype MIGHT have passed FCC testing, the actual units that people buy are often out of compliance in terms of the amount of noise the produce. A lot of the computer systems used to keep airplanes in the air are hardened against this noise as best we can, but we still depend on being able to receive good RF signal from GPS, VOR, ILS, and a host of other systems that allow the plane to navigate and communicate. Until we get serious about testing consumer products for noise radiation, it is a good idea to ban them from airliners. Just because it has only happen twice, doesn't mean that the next time won't involve a life threatening situation for someone you love. On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:47 PM, David Hillman wrote: > On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Scott wrote: > >> I dunno, I won't use pvc for air anymore. I have, however, flown 250,000 >> miles (at least) having forgotten my phone was powered up in my backpack, >> and the plane has never so much as hiccuped. I tend to be skeptical that a >> $200 million flying radio is going to be equipped with anything that has any >> issues with a phone's cellular radio. I mean, most planes in the U.S. are >> rarely more than 40,000 feet off the ground, and most of the flights I take >> are at about 20,000 feet. That's four miles. My phone easily has a range >> of four miles, which means all those phones on the ground are emitting >> something that could interfere with the plane too. The cell phone frenzy is >> one of those things that will convince us that we were retarded in 30 years. >> > > It just so happens that the company I work for puts cellular modems on > commercial airliners. It's how we deliver broadband internet to passengers. > We have over 2000 planes flying around the country every day, squawking > back and forth to the ground via standard cellular technology. We have been > doing so for 3 years. > > The prohibition against cell use on planes is for passenger comfort, and > security, not technical reasons. Largely the same reason we can't provide > VOIP on commercial lines, but we can on private planes, and they can in > Europe. > > -- > David Hillman > > PS You'd be surprised how often commercial jets crack 40k, but it's > irrelevant. We get hundreds of miles of range from our antennas. > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/jdinnis@**gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From jem at milleredp.com Fri Oct 14 08:16:50 2011 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:16:50 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cell phones on aircraft (was Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir) In-Reply-To: <06c501cc8a03$b4e12250$0501a8c0@randall> References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> <06c501cc8a03$b4e12250$0501a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4E984452.6060505@milleredp.com> > One other point, I've been privileged (?) to ride in the cockpit of some > non-commercial flights. The radios they use to contact the tower have > simply hideous voice quality. What kind of 'non-commercial flight'? Yes, you can have installation problems, but (a) most often sound quality's a function of the headset you're using which is why no one cheaps out (or should cheap out) on their headset and (b) if you're talking about the in-cabin speaker on something like a 172 those are there just as an alternative source of noise (of which you've already got plenty...) and maybe as an emergency device in the case of headset failure. John. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 11:21:54 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:21:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E986FB2.9040202@gmail.com> I'm not at all discounting this John. But--and this sounds awful--two instances in the countless flights every day (and I'm on a lot of those flights, so don't think I'm blowing it off) isn't worth the sturm and drang on the plane. Of all the infinite number of things than can result in a plane making a sudden unscheduled stop in a lake, two instances of radio interference isn't something as a flier I want to be protected from if it means empowering a nasty underpaid attitude in heels to stand next to my seat barking "SIR!" at my seatmate passive-aggressively for five minutes. I'll risk the crash two out of 500,000 times. I'm willing to bet drunk pilots, poor maintenance, and cosmic radiation are a far greater risk to me in the air. The best ones are the attendants that want to get into it with passengers wearing noise cancelling headphones. There's no way to tell if most of them are powered on or off, so they simply make sure they're not wearing them. As another passenger, what if they're still on? If the goal is to eliminate RF interference and it's so damn vital...then you pick those things up and take out the batteries. Otherwise it's not that important and you're just being a angry b*&ch. But I *am* all for using technology to render the voice capabilities of other technology un-useable. You wanna crash the plane? Fine. But keep the rest of the cattle in here with me quiet until it does, yeah? Or: let them play their Game Boys if it keeps them off the damn phone. On 10/14/2011 9:07 AM, John Innis wrote: > I work for a company that designs and builds the computers and > displays that pilots use to fly aircraft. I can tell you that they > have been two confirmed incidents of a PED (personal electronic > device) causing interference with these systems. One was a CD player > with no wireless capability at all (just a really noisy local > oscillator in exactly the wrong frequency range), the other was a > laptop PC with an operating wireless card. The problem is that all > electronic devices produce RF noise. Most of the consumer grade stuff > is so poorly made that while the prototype MIGHT have passed FCC > testing, the actual units that people buy are often out of compliance > in terms of the amount of noise the produce. A lot of the computer > systems used to keep airplanes in the air are hardened against this > noise as best we can, but we still depend on being able to receive > good RF signal from GPS, VOR, ILS, and a host of other systems that > allow the plane to navigate and communicate. Until we get serious > about testing consumer products for noise radiation, it is a good idea > to ban them from airliners. Just because it has only happen twice, > doesn't mean that the next time won't involve a life threatening > situation for someone you love. From bk13 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 14 20:20:33 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:20:33 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E97AA71.4060504@gmail.com> References: , <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> <4E97AA71.4060504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E98EDF1.9050005@earthlink.net> Scott - Jamming cell phones is easy. It is also illegal in the US and many other places. We can all still dream about a little key chain device that will disconnect the loud guy on the phone at the next table in a restaurant. See http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Public_Notices/DA-05-1776A1.html and many other sources. If I remember right, once upon a time some movie theater did or was going to do it and a lawsuit of some sort was involved about emergency communication. Brian On 10/13/2011 8:20 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > ... > > No, as far as I'm concerned a CDMA and GSM band jammer on all flights > would just just fine, rendering phones ineffective anywhere within 100 > feet of an aircraft. I assume such a thing must not be feasable, > because I assume thousands of people have offered to pay extra just to > fly on planes so equipped and airlines are nothing if not profit-seeking. > ... From marka at maracing.com Fri Oct 14 22:44:00 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 00:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: <4E9721DE.6050106@xxiii.com> <4E974B44.5050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, John Innis wrote: > I work for a company that designs and builds the computers and displays > that pilots use to fly aircraft. I can tell you that they have been two > confirmed incidents of a PED (personal electronic device) causing > interference with these systems. One was a CD player with no wireless > capability at all (just a really noisy local oscillator in exactly the > wrong frequency range), the other was a laptop PC with an operating > wireless card. The problem is that all electronic devices produce RF > noise. Most of the consumer grade stuff is so poorly made that while > the prototype MIGHT have passed FCC testing, the actual units that > people buy are often out of compliance in terms of the amount of noise > the produce. A lot of the computer systems used to keep airplanes in > the air are hardened against this noise as best we can, but we still > depend on being able to receive good RF signal from GPS, VOR, ILS, and a > host of other systems that allow the plane to navigate and communicate. > Until we get serious about testing consumer products for noise > radiation, it is a good idea to ban them from airliners. Just because it > has only happen twice, doesn't mean that the next time won't involve a > life threatening situation for someone you love. Here's the thing. There should be two options here: 1) Devices aren't an issue. Use them. 2) Devices are an issue. In which case I don't want to trust Joe Pork Belly Salesman with my life. This current "solution" seems _completely_ stupid. Mark From coles at colesnurseries.com Sat Oct 15 12:48:32 2011 From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan Fest) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:48:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: old clay drain Message-ID: <80DA7D241EA244B2B68E161498F425B0@Dan> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Fest To: shop-talk at autox.team Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 1:31 PM Subject: old clay drain I am having trouble with an old clay (terra cota ??) drain pipe that goes under a portion of the house. Not sure why, but it cracked under a slab (froze??). I cut the slab and was fortunate to find the crack. I'd like to saw the crack spot out and use two ferncos with a short section of pvc to fix. The problem is that the ppe is 5". I am not sure if pvc comes in 5". Does it or does another type ?? Thanks, Dan From hillman at planet-torque.com Mon Oct 17 12:54:23 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, David Hillman wrote: > Do not ever buy this product. Do not allow anyone you know ( or, at > least, like ) to buy it. Do not believe anything on that website, except the > price ( and the 'master kit' only has about half what you need for a very > minimal install ). > > I should've just used regular copper, it would've been so much easier and > faster, and cheaper, too I think. > > I might even tear this crap down, eat the $200, and replace it with > copper. One last update... Friday morning, I decided to rip out the nearly-finished Rapid Air install, and replace with copper. Now I regret buying that Rapid Air crap even more. The copper was so much easier to install, it's not funny. I used a mix of Sharkbite fittings ( which cost only a little more than the cheap plastic Rapid Air fittings ) and sweated fittings. Finished the whole thing ( 80 foot loop with five drops ) over the weekend, and didn't spend more than 5 hours on it either day. That includes some time to tear down the Rapid Air, box it up, and post it on Craigslist ;) No leaks, except for the cheap 5-way manifold that I bought from Northern Tool. For what it's worth, the Rapid Air kit, plus the extras I needed and shipping, ran me around $175. I spent over a month trying to install it, mainly because of the tubing's memory. The copper cost about $250 ( would've been a little more had I not already had a torch, pipe cutter, etc ), picked up from the orange box, and like I said, installed in an easy weekend. I could've saved $40 by using thin-wall M, but I went with blue type L. I can't think of any reason not to use copper, to be honest. I can think of many reasons not to use Rapid Air ;) -- David Hillman From arvidj at visi.com Mon Oct 17 16:41:25 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> A +1 on the ease of installation of copper. And at least in my area [Minnesota] the green-box store is about 10% cheaper on copper than the orange-box or the blue-box. I used "L" and a silver based solder and have never had an issue. I had tried black iron and found that Teflon tape is not the way to make an effective joint seal. I then went to Teflon pipe joint compound and that solved the pipe sealing issues but I was still left with the hassle of cutting and threading. So I started over with copper and like David have lived happily ever after. Arvid -----Original Message----- From: David Hillman Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 1:54 PM To: shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, David Hillman wrote: > Do not ever buy this product. Do not allow anyone you know ( or, at > least, like ) to buy it. Do not believe anything on that website, except > the price ( and the 'master kit' only has about half what you need for a > very minimal install ). > > I should've just used regular copper, it would've been so much easier > and faster, and cheaper, too I think. > > I might even tear this crap down, eat the $200, and replace it with > copper. One last update... Friday morning, I decided to rip out the nearly-finished Rapid Air install, and replace with copper. Now I regret buying that Rapid Air crap even more. The copper was so much easier to install, it's not funny. I used a mix of Sharkbite fittings ( which cost only a little more than the cheap plastic Rapid Air fittings ) and sweated fittings. Finished the whole thing ( 80 foot loop with five drops ) over the weekend, and didn't spend more than 5 hours on it either day. That includes some time to tear down the Rapid Air, box it up, and post it on Craigslist ;) No leaks, except for the cheap 5-way manifold that I bought from Northern Tool. For what it's worth, the Rapid Air kit, plus the extras I needed and shipping, ran me around $175. I spent over a month trying to install it, mainly because of the tubing's memory. The copper cost about $250 ( would've been a little more had I not already had a torch, pipe cutter, etc ), picked up from the orange box, and like I said, installed in an easy weekend. I could've saved $40 by using thin-wall M, but I went with blue type L. I can't think of any reason not to use copper, to be honest. I can think of many reasons not to use Rapid Air ;) -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Oct 17 17:03:52 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:03:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Appliance rollers Message-ID: <000301cc8d21$0aa4a020$1fede060$@ameritech.net> Some years ago I bought a set of rollers or skates to put under our refrigerator. They consisted of an expandable frame and maybe 6-8 small wheels across on each of 4 axles at each end - a total of about 50-65 wheels per skate. Lots of bearing area so they rolled very nicely, and with many small rollers they were reasonably maneuverable, too. IIRC they were aluminum frames with plastic wheels - and we probably left them under the refrigerator in that house. Now I'm really tired of the flimsy built-in feet and rollers on our Whirlpool all-refrigerator and all-freezer. The two units are a great alternative to a SubZero at about $1300 for the pair, but they're the bottom end of Whirlpool's line and they're the only things like this on the market, so I have to repair the cheapness. The case and lower frame are so thin and flexible that the refrigerator and freezer readily rock on our floor, which is hardwood that sits directly on concrete. It's not deflecting - the frames of the units are bending. We've lived with it for a few years, but it's time for a real solution. I plan to make an angle-iron perimeter frame for each of the units, supporting the entire case directly along the bottom edges all around and taking all the weight off the light-weight underframe. I'll build in the leveling that each unit needs for the exact spot of floor where it sits. I want to put the frames on similar rollers to what we used to have. I could fabricate the roller part too, but it seems like an unnecessary complication when there are things on the market that do just that. Googling finds lots of stuff, but nothing I can really see and little information to evaluate. Anyone bought anything like this lately and have a recommendation? Thanks! Karl Pilots - Looking down on people since 1903 From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Oct 18 07:36:37 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:36:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling a square hole Message-ID: <8EE44FEC86124E82BD97B04DC61FC042@OwnerPC> you guys might have seen this but it got me giddy just watching it..... TOOL HEADS !!! (it's like a gear head but with tools) PAY ATTENTION. how many times have you needed a square hole and had to drill it out and then work with a file to square it up..... the Japanese (those crafty bastards) have solved your problem...this is just too dang cool (and expensive probably) http://gizmodo.com/5849810/how-the-hell-can-this-magical-square-hole-drilling -machine-works From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:29:59 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:29:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a lathe Message-ID: <4E9D9B77.9040202@gmail.com> So I'm looking around online for a lathe. A lot of the descriptions are incomplete, and when I ask specifically, they're usually sold by brokers that say, "Look at the picture". I learned to use a lathe on a Lagun Republic lathe and not only do I not know what it might have looked like on that, I don't know what it'd look like on a Monarch, or a Clausing, etc. So...anybody know an easy way to identify if a lathe has those from looking at a picture? Thanks. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:33:10 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:33:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> References: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> Message-ID: <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> I thought the reason for black iron was the condensing capability of the pipe, no? Like you, I think that the threading, cutting, and sealing issues with black iron are a huge pita, and copper is comparatively cake to install. But if black iron is that much better at keeping the air dry, well, I'm only going to do this once... What say the list? Am I overstating the benefits of iron? Something else to think about is that copper won't rust on the inside. There's that... On 10/17/2011 6:41 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > A +1 on the ease of installation of copper. > > And at least in my area [Minnesota] the green-box store is about 10% > cheaper on copper than the orange-box or the blue-box. I used "L" and > a silver based solder and have never had an issue. > > I had tried black iron and found that Teflon tape is not the way to > make an effective joint seal. I then went to Teflon pipe joint > compound and that solved the pipe sealing issues but I was still left > with the hassle of cutting and threading. So I started over with > copper and like David have lived happily ever after. > > Arvid From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:37:53 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:37:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Appliance rollers In-Reply-To: <000301cc8d21$0aa4a020$1fede060$@ameritech.net> References: <000301cc8d21$0aa4a020$1fede060$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <4E9D9D51.1060405@gmail.com> I can't help with the rollers, Karl (I'm assuming you're looking for a permanently mounted setup, I've just been using my furniture dolly), but I'd love to hear more about the hardwood floors on a concrete slab. Did you glue them? My wife would like hardwood over out slab, but despite all the articles I read about them people keep telling me not to do it. But none of them have done it themselves, jsut that they're sure it's a bad idea. On 10/17/2011 7:03 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > Now I'm really tired of the flimsy built-in feet and rollers on our > Whirlpool all-refrigerator and all-freezer. The two units are a great > alternative to a SubZero at about $1300 for the pair, but they're the bottom > end of Whirlpool's line and they're the only things like this on the market, > so I have to repair the cheapness. The case and lower frame are so thin and > flexible that the refrigerator and freezer readily rock on our floor, which > is hardwood that sits directly on concrete. It's not deflecting - the > frames of the units are bending. We've lived with it for a few years, but > it's time for a real solution. From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Oct 18 10:08:08 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling a square hole In-Reply-To: <8EE44FEC86124E82BD97B04DC61FC042@OwnerPC> References: <8EE44FEC86124E82BD97B04DC61FC042@OwnerPC> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, john niolon wrote: > TOOL HEADS !!! (it's like a gear head but with tools) PAY ATTENTION. how many > times have you needed a square hole and had to drill it out and then work with > a file to square it up..... the Japanese (those crafty bastards) have solved > your problem...this is just too dang cool (and expensive probably) > http://gizmodo.com/5849810/how-the-hell-can-this-magical-square-hole-drilling > -machine-works It's actually based on a 1918 patent... an American one. HJ Watts patent #1,241,176. -- David Hillman From arvidj at visi.com Tue Oct 18 12:11:32 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:11:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> References: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <61B646E2B0C34531A03635B0E79DC6AF@HP62011> I won't be much help there. I have a "radiator" on the compressor so a lot of the cooling and condensing gets done in the tank. Then there is a desiccant dryer between the tank and the plumbing so it is pretty dry going into the copper. Arvid -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hall Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:33 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir I thought the reason for black iron was the condensing capability of the pipe, no? Like you, I think that the threading, cutting, and sealing issues with black iron are a huge pita, and copper is comparatively cake to install. But if black iron is that much better at keeping the air dry, well, I'm only going to do this once... What say the list? Am I overstating the benefits of iron? Something else to think about is that copper won't rust on the inside. There's that... On 10/17/2011 6:41 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > A +1 on the ease of installation of copper. > > And at least in my area [Minnesota] the green-box store is about 10% > cheaper on copper than the orange-box or the blue-box. I used "L" and a > silver based solder and have never had an issue. > > I had tried black iron and found that Teflon tape is not the way to make > an effective joint seal. I then went to Teflon pipe joint compound and > that solved the pipe sealing issues but I was still left with the hassle > of cutting and threading. So I started over with copper and like David > have lived happily ever after. > > Arvid _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Oct 18 12:20:29 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:20:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Appliance rollers In-Reply-To: <000301cc8d21$0aa4a020$1fede060$@ameritech.net> References: <000301cc8d21$0aa4a020$1fede060$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <9289D7A11E54474AA7872B55A2DDDF5B@OwnerPC> karl funny thing... I just built one to replace my 20 year old rusty, bent appliance roller sets... I used 2" angle iron in a "U" configuration with cross pieces across the middle..side to side I used regular swivel casters (2")... haven't put it under the cooler yet...this is going under a single door commercial cooler (30"x28") waiting on help... but it should be better than the old broken appliance rollers. I can take a pic this pm. is you like... simple design I plan on tilting it up from the back and sliding the rack under it (the reason for the U-shape) then muscleing it back on to the rack hope that helps john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" To: Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:03 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Appliance rollers > Some years ago I bought a set of rollers or skates to put under our > refrigerator. They consisted of an expandable frame and maybe 6-8 small > wheels across on each of 4 axles at each end - a total of about 50-65 > wheels > per skate. Lots of bearing area so they rolled very nicely, and with many > small rollers they were reasonably maneuverable, too. IIRC they were > aluminum frames with plastic wheels - and we probably left them under the > refrigerator in that house. > > > > Now I'm really tired of the flimsy built-in feet and rollers on our > Whirlpool all-refrigerator and all-freezer. The two units are a great > alternative to a SubZero at about $1300 for the pair, but they're the > bottom > end of Whirlpool's line and they're the only things like this on the > market, > so I have to repair the cheapness. The case and lower frame are so thin > and > flexible that the refrigerator and freezer readily rock on our floor, > which > is hardwood that sits directly on concrete. It's not deflecting - the > frames of the units are bending. We've lived with it for a few years, but > it's time for a real solution. > > > > I plan to make an angle-iron perimeter frame for each of the units, > supporting the entire case directly along the bottom edges all around and > taking all the weight off the light-weight underframe. I'll build in the > leveling that each unit needs for the exact spot of floor where it sits. > I > want to put the frames on similar rollers to what we used to have. I > could > fabricate the roller part too, but it seems like an unnecessary > complication > when there are things on the market that do just that. > > > > Googling finds lots of stuff, but nothing I can really see and little > information to evaluate. Anyone bought anything like this lately and have > a > recommendation? > > > > Thanks! > Karl > > > > > > Pilots - > > Looking down on people since 1903 > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3958 - Release Date: 10/17/11 From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 13:08:37 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:08:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <61B646E2B0C34531A03635B0E79DC6AF@HP62011> References: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> <61B646E2B0C34531A03635B0E79DC6AF@HP62011> Message-ID: <4E9DCEB5.3060809@gmail.com> Well tell us about the radiator, man! Spill, take pics! :-) On 10/18/2011 2:11 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I won't be much help there. I have a "radiator" on the compressor so a > lot of the cooling and condensing gets done in the tank. Then there is > a desiccant dryer between the tank and the plumbing so it is pretty > dry going into the copper. From arvidj at visi.com Tue Oct 18 14:08:24 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:08:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9DCEB5.3060809@gmail.com> References: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> <61B646E2B0C34531A03635B0E79DC6AF@HP62011> <4E9DCEB5.3060809@gmail.com> Message-ID: I got the compressor from here ... http://www.castair.net/industrial-air-compressors.html All of the pictures on their site are of the same side of the compressor. We will call that that "front" side. On the back side, attached to the outside of the belt guard in a way that allows the air from the pump pulley will flow over it is a "radiator". Technically it is an air cooled after cooler but to most people it looks like a radiator. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Air-Cooled-Aftercooler-4UJG4?Pid=search There is a copper pipe that goes from the head of the compressor to the inlet of the after cooler and another copper pipe that goes from the outlet of the after cooler to the inlet of the 80 gallon tank. With my infrared heat gun I have measured the inlet temperature to be over 250 degrees and the outlet temperature to be about 10 degrees above the basement temperature ... that would make it about 80 degrees. Admittedly when the compressor is constantly on ... seldom happens but it does on occasion ... the air does not spend a lot of time in the tank and therefore the water vapor does not have much time condense in the tank. I have often thought about building a Franzinator to go between the after cooler and the tank but just never get around to it. I also have a refrigerated dryer but again I just have not had time to hook it up. The desiccant dryer seems to do the job for now and my wife thinks its cool the way the desiccant beads changes color when she dries them out in the toaster oven. If you spend a little time goggling you can find many DIY after coolers. Most are air cooled, some are water cooled. At least in my case the air leaving the tank is pretty much as cool as it is ever going to get ... the temperature of the basement. My theory is that any water that comes out of the air while it is in my pipes is based on the time it takes water vapor to condense and not on any temperature change of the gasses while it is in the pipe. I assume the condensation process is not instantaneous otherwise my tank would fill with water based on the 150 degree drop in the after cooler. If that assumption is correct then the water in the pipe is from "it just happened to be in the pipe when it condensed" rather then the temperature of the pipe. Anyway, that is my radiator story. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hall Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:08 PM To: Arvid Jedlicka Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir Well tell us about the radiator, man! Spill, take pics! :-) On 10/18/2011 2:11 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I won't be much help there. I have a "radiator" on the compressor so a lot > of the cooling and condensing gets done in the tank. Then there is a > desiccant dryer between the tank and the plumbing so it is pretty dry > going into the copper. From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Tue Oct 18 14:09:40 2011 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:09:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling a square hole In-Reply-To: References: <8EE44FEC86124E82BD97B04DC61FC042@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <20111018200940.GA46964@sackheads.org> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:08:08PM -0400, David Hillman wrote: > On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, john niolon wrote: > It's actually based on a 1918 patent... an American one. HJ Watts > patent #1,241,176. When I was a kid, I saw a replica in action at a Ripley's 'Believe It Or Not' museum. From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 18 16:37:33 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:37:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oak floors on a concrete slab - LONG Message-ID: <000c01cc8de6$87a0ab30$96e20190$@ameritech.net> >From: Scott Hall >Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Appliance rollers I'd love to hear >more about the hardwood floors on a concrete slab. Did you glue them? I researched quite a bit before doing the floors, and what we did worked out well. The final installation technique was pretty unique, but it began with recommendations from the several wood flooring trade groups. I first ground any notable high spots in the slab. Then I installed a layer of WR Grace ice and water shield - a roofing product. It's a sandwich of interleaved layers of bituminous and polyethylene. Very tough, sticks in place and to itself along seams, and when nailed through (on a roof or shooting concrete nails to secure a floor) it seals to the nails. I believe that this far better than a typical layer of plastic sheeting - it's really impervious and won't tear through or shred as old plastic will. And I ran it up the walls a couple inches to cover the gaps where drafts used to blow in. Then I cross-laid two layers of 1/2" CDX plywood. The initial plan was to glue and screw the two layers together and let the whole floor float. The guy I hired to lay the first couple of rooms agreed to do as I planned until he started the job, then he ragged on me till I agreed to let him nail the subfloor to the concrete slab. We still glued the two layers together, with Titebond. I don't think anchoring it to the slab was a bad thing, since the floors are completely silent to walk on with no springiness or creaking, but I do think that a floating floor would have expanded and contracted as one unit better. After that it was a straightforward installation - nailing into nearly 1" of plywood gives a good anchor. Regrets: - I was sold on the Swedish finishes, and we used Synteko. Never again. It's hard and scratchproof, but rather than soak into the floor like a layer of urethane, it forms a hard film on top of the wood. Then it cracks over the grain and in joints. Urethane after we resand (soon) - I want flexible protection that bonds into the wood. - I tried to anticipate all the sub-slab work we'd need, but I didn't think of running a few conduits under strategic areas, for later electrical or plumbing additions. Too late now. - Much of the floor is quarter-sawn. Though quarter-sawn wood expands and contracts less width-wise than plain-sawn, we have significant end-gaps in the quarter-sawn areas, even though everyone knows that wood shrinks very little length-wise. The plain-sawn areas don't have an end-gap problem. Might be because I wanted the oak in really long lengths. I couldn't get over 4' in the plain-sawn wood, but the quarter-sawn runs up to 7 and 8 feet. Karl From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 18 17:34:44 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:34:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> <61B646E2B0C34531A03635B0E79DC6AF@HP62011> <4E9DCEB5.3060809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012a01cc8dee$8501ead0$8f05c070$@rr.com> > If you spend a little time goggling you can find many DIY after > coolers. > Most are air cooled, some are water cooled. Don't have the link handy, but I recall seeing one somewhere that was nothing more than a coil of soft copper tubing lying in a plastic 5 gallon bucket. When doing something that required dry air, you dump several pounds of ice into the pickle bucket. Not a production setup, obviously, but likely adequate for the average DIY. But I haven't had the urge to try it, since my current setup seems to deliver air that is dry enough. The drain on the main run to the compressor (50 or 60 feet of 3/4" iron pipe) is always dry, even when there is a fair amount of water in the tank. -- Randall From fishplate at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 19:21:20 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:21:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <012a01cc8dee$8501ead0$8f05c070$@rr.com> References: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011> <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> <61B646E2B0C34531A03635B0E79DC6AF@HP62011> <4E9DCEB5.3060809@gmail.com> <012a01cc8dee$8501ead0$8f05c070$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Randall wrote: > But I haven't had the urge to try it, since my current setup seems to > deliver air that is dry enough. The drain on the main run to the compressor > (50 or 60 feet of 3/4" iron pipe) is always dry, even when there is a fair > amount of water in the tank. Of course, different activities require different levels of dryness...but I wonder how humid the air is, despite it's non-condensing tendencies... I'm too lazy to perform the theoretical calculations, though. If it works, it works, right? Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From jszwed at energykinetics.com Wed Oct 19 07:28:59 2011 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:28:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> For cutting threads the lathe will need a threading dial. These are typically mounted on the right hand side of the carriage apron. Some are built in, some pivot on a bolt so you can disengage them when not in use. The dial is numbered 1-4 with dashes in-between. A taper attachment is mounted on the back of the carriage. It has a guide bar that pivots so you can set your taper. It is a noticeable appendage sticking out back there, so I think you would see it in a picture. To use it, the cross feed is disconnected, the clamp on taper attachment is tightened so it locks it to the bed. So that when the carriage is moved, the cross feed follows the taper set on the guide bar. The arm that you clamp is typically disconnected and left hanging out of the way near the back of the bed. I mention this cause I think you want to make sure that it is not missing. I hope this helps, I haven't cut threads or used a taper attachment in many, many years so I am going from memory here. Joe >So...anybody know an easy way to identify if a lathe has those from looking at a picture? > >Thanks. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 19 08:52:28 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:52:28 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: References: <315D644704B742FEBB113D93D2FFA5E9@HP62011><4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com><61B646E2B0C34531A03635B0E79DC6AF@HP62011><4E9DCEB5.3060809@gmail.com><012a01cc8dee$8501ead0$8f05c070$@rr.com> Message-ID: <040901cc8e6e$b9377d30$0501a8c0@randall> > I'm too lazy to perform the theoretical calculations, though. The main line runs at a nominal 150 psi, roughly 10 atm. As I understand it, even if it were at 100% RH, then after it goes through the regulator to 90 psi (~6 atm) and gets warmed back up to room temperature, it should only be around 60% RH. > If it works, it works, right? That's my attitude. Before, with the little compressor under the bench, I would get water spitting out the exhaust of my air tools (like the die grinder). Now I don't. The blast cabinet seems to clog less too (probably wouldn't clog at all if I would change the glass beads). But I don't do anything that requires really dry air. And if I do, I can always add the pickle bucket -- Randall From arvidj at visi.com Wed Oct 19 11:21:38 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:21:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Message-ID: <65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011> Joe, Just curious ... you just don't cut threads and tapers any more or have converted the lathe to CNC and just let the machine does it all? Scott, For threading, you might want to check out an example of what might be needed on page 16 - 19 in this manual http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4003_m.pdf. You can see the threading dial that Joe mentions plus the lever to engage the half nut. You will also see that -- for this lathe and many others -- that there might be gear changes to cut certain thread pitches. You will want to make sure your lathe comes with the appropriate gears for the threads you want to create. For a used lathe the gears may be in a cardboard box on the floor near by the lathe or gone walk-about. Arvid -----Original Message----- From: Joe Szwed Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 8:28 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a For cutting threads the lathe will need a threading dial. These are typically mounted on the right hand side of the carriage apron. Some are built in, some pivot on a bolt so you can disengage them when not in use. The dial is numbered 1-4 with dashes in-between. A taper attachment is mounted on the back of the carriage. It has a guide bar that pivots so you can set your taper. It is a noticeable appendage sticking out back there, so I think you would see it in a picture. To use it, the cross feed is disconnected, the clamp on taper attachment is tightened so it locks it to the bed. So that when the carriage is moved, the cross feed follows the taper set on the guide bar. The arm that you clamp is typically disconnected and left hanging out of the way near the back of the bed. I mention this cause I think you want to make sure that it is not missing. I hope this helps, I haven't cut threads or used a taper attachment in many, many years so I am going from memory here. Joe >So...anybody know an easy way to identify if a lathe has those from looking at a picture? > >Thanks. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From arvidj at visi.com Wed Oct 19 11:31:42 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:31:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a Message-ID: And just thought of one more thing. For threading the lead screw needs to be reversible -- apron moves towards the chuck rather than away from the chuck -- if you want to cut "normal" right hand threads. Many smaller lathes -- 9 and 10 inch swings and smaller -- need to have a "reverse tumbler" installed to cut the threads. There are many links available on the web to suggest how to create this device. I think most bigger lathes -- 12 inch and greater swing -- come with selectable lead screw direction built in. Certainly no expert in the lathe world but stuff I've picked up while trying to buy one, Arvid From jszwed at energykinetics.com Wed Oct 19 12:00:47 2011 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:00:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011> Message-ID: <7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Arvid, I think your right. When I did my apprenticeship back in the early 80's the only cnc stuff I saw was used for high volume. In the shop I worked in, we had two turret lathes for any volume parts and no cnc equipment. Two of the Bridgeports had readouts on them. I think today's stuff is a lot easier to program and used for a lot of small jobs too. But for repair work and very small volume stuff, there are still some small shops around doing it the old way. Now having said that, I still on occasion deal with some small shops for repair parts at work. The last part I hard made was just a short piece of bar stock with both ends turned down and threaded for 1" pipe. The first part they made, they didn't cut the threads deep enough. So I sent it back thinking they would just pick the threads up and cut them deeper, but it was faster and easier just to make a new part on their cnc lathe. And this was a real small shop that operates out of an old chicken coupe. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Arvid Jedlicka [mailto:arvidj at visi.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 1:22 PM To: Joe Szwed; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a Joe, Just curious ... you just don't cut threads and tapers any more or have converted the lathe to CNC and just let the machine does it all? Scott, For threading, you might want to check out an example of what might be needed on page 16 - 19 in this manual http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4003_m.pdf. You can see the threading dial that Joe mentions plus the lever to engage the half nut. You will also see that -- for this lathe and many others -- that there might be gear changes to cut certain thread pitches. You will want to make sure your lathe comes with the appropriate gears for the threads you want to create. For a used lathe the gears may be in a cardboard box on the floor near by the lathe or gone walk-about. Arvid -----Original Message----- From: Joe Szwed Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 8:28 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a For cutting threads the lathe will need a threading dial. These are typically mounted on the right hand side of the carriage apron. Some are built in, some pivot on a bolt so you can disengage them when not in use. The dial is numbered 1-4 with dashes in-between. A taper attachment is mounted on the back of the carriage. It has a guide bar that pivots so you can set your taper. It is a noticeable appendage sticking out back there, so I think you would see it in a picture. To use it, the cross feed is disconnected, the clamp on taper attachment is tightened so it locks it to the bed. So that when the carriage is moved, the cross feed follows the taper set on the guide bar. The arm that you clamp is typically disconnected and left hanging out of the way near the back of the bed. I mention this cause I think you want to make sure that it is not missing. I hope this helps, I haven't cut threads or used a taper attachment in many, many years so I am going from memory here. Joe >So...anybody know an easy way to identify if a lathe has those from >looking at a picture? > >Thanks. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From arvidj at visi.com Wed Oct 19 13:24:57 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:24:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011> <7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Message-ID: That is what the threading dial and the documentation is for. Depending on the gearing between the lead screw and the chuck and the threads you are cutting you can engage the half nut any time, only when the the number 1 is by the pointer, only when 1 and 3 are by the pointer ... the documentation will spell it all out. What it is doing is synchronizing the chuck and the lead screw so the cutter will always follow the same path with each pass. When they removed the pipe from the chuck after threading all bets were off as to synchronizing the existing threads with the cutter when they put it back in the chuck. Easier to just start over again. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Szwed Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 1:00 PM To: 'Arvid Jedlicka' ; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a Arvid, I think your right. When I did my apprenticeship back in the early 80's the only cnc stuff I saw was used for high volume. In the shop I worked in, we had two turret lathes for any volume parts and no cnc equipment. Two of the Bridgeports had readouts on them. I think today's stuff is a lot easier to program and used for a lot of small jobs too. But for repair work and very small volume stuff, there are still some small shops around doing it the old way. Now having said that, I still on occasion deal with some small shops for repair parts at work. The last part I hard made was just a short piece of bar stock with both ends turned down and threaded for 1" pipe. The first part they made, they didn't cut the threads deep enough. So I sent it back thinking they would just pick the threads up and cut them deeper, but it was faster and easier just to make a new part on their cnc lathe. And this was a real small shop that operates out of an old chicken coupe. Joe From eric at megageek.com Wed Oct 19 16:54:52 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:54:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressed Air Lines, RapidAir In-Reply-To: <4E9D9C36.1080808@gmail.com> Message-ID: Scott writes... >What say the list? Am I overstating the benefits of iron? Something >else to think about is that copper won't rust on the inside. There's >that... I agree. In fact, I posted the condensing issue when this first started. I also agree that I would rather do it once and be done with it. My black pipe had lots of leaks. Turns out, the cheap HF pipe threader was the cause. Instead of redoing every joint (not really an option with the size and scope of my installation) I just would shut it off when I was done. Now that I have free electric (thanks solar!) I have left it on over night a few times and the leaks have plugged themselves up! (someone here told me they would do that.) But if I were doing it over again, it would be black pipe with a high end threader! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Oct 19 17:45:28 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:45:28 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo Message-ID: Hello, I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo about 1/8" thick all over it. Does anybody know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the fender, but I am worried that the bondo will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some plastics are. Does methylene chloride paint stripper attack the stuff? How about burning it off? Thanks, Doug From cavanadd at frontier.com Wed Oct 19 20:02:14 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:02:14 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011> <7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Message-ID: <4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com> Not necessarily; chasing or "picking up" an existing thread on a lathe with a threading dial is (or at least was) a pretty straightforward task for the average machinist. You just get the cutting tool close to the threaded part, close the half nuts at the appropriate mark on the threading dial, stop the lathe, then very carefully use the cross and compound to seat the threading tool in the thread and proceed as normal. Dave Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > When they removed the pipe from the chuck after threading all bets were > off as to synchronizing the existing threads with the cutter when they > put it back in the chuck. Easier to just start over again. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Wed Oct 19 20:41:03 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:41:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any of those methods will work. Paint stripper is probably the slowest but safest (to the sheet metal). Sandblasting can warp sheet metal. A paint stripping heat gun might be the best compromise. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > I will eventually sandblast the fender, > > Does methylene chloride paint stripper attack the stuff? How about > burning > it off? From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Oct 19 20:57:54 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:57:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cc8ed4$10ba7d90$322f78b0$@ameritech.net> Either one will work. Being a Model A fender it's thick enough to take some heat without warping, but no need to heat it very much. Gently heating the underside should loosen it faster than trying to burn it off from the top (cough cough choke). You might be able to actually peel it off with just a little heat - once you get it started, it should pull off nicely as you move the heat along. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Braun Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo Hello, I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo about 1/8" thick all over it. Does anybody know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the fender, but I am worried that the bondo will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some plastics are. Does methylene chloride paint stripper attack the stuff? How about burning it off? Thanks, Doug From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Oct 19 21:02:16 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:02:16 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9F8F38.2020903@comcast.net> A propane torch will soften the filler, making it much easier to scrape the heavier layers off. One of these on a 4.5" grinder will take off the thinner layers: http://www.homedepot.com/buy/paint/paint-tools/norton/4-12-in-x-58-11-in-rapid-strip-disc-70237.html (it will leave some fine scratching). Chemical paint strippers work, but not too well on thick buildups. We had to take a bunch of filler off our Austin-Healey; we heated, scraped, then got the last of it with the stripper wheel. Bob On 10/19/2011 4:45 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > Hello, > > I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo about 1/8" > thick all over it. Does anybody > know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the fender, but I > am worried that the bondo > will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some plastics > are. > > Does methylene chloride paint stripper attack the stuff? How about burning > it off? > > Thanks, > Doug > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From bk13 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 23:15:06 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:15:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9FAE5A.7070704@earthlink.net> Doug - A wire wheel in an angle grinder will make it all go away real fast. Do it outside when there is a breeze and wear a dust mask or respirator in addition to goggles. It will also save you having to sandblast everything except inside corners and you can easily get all the open areas down to clean metal. Brian On 10/19/2011 4:45 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > Hello, > > I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo about 1/8" > thick all over it. Does anybody > know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the fender, but I > am worried that the bondo > will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some plastics > are. > > Does methylene chloride paint stripper attack the stuff? How about burning > it off? > > Thanks, > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 19 23:59:05 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:59:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011><7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com> Message-ID: <053901cc8eed$60943220$0501a8c0@randall> > Not necessarily; chasing or "picking up" an existing thread > on a lathe > with a threading dial is (or at least was) a pretty > straightforward task > for the average machinist. I agree. And even the threading dial is not strictly necessary. It doesn't work anyway, for some small group of threads. (I forget the rules offhand, but ISTR you can't use it for Whitworth threads.) If you don't have one (or it doesn't work for the thread you're doing), you just never open the half nuts and run the motor in reverse to move the carriage back to the right. -- Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Oct 20 04:44:43 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:44:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: <4E9FAE5A.7070704@earthlink.net> References: <4E9FAE5A.7070704@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks to all for the tips. I'll probably try the wire wheel approach. It can't be messier than sandblasting... Doug From tputland at charter.net Thu Oct 20 04:56:18 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo Message-ID: <481ff2a.194f5a.13320f971d2.Webtop.49@charter.net> I've removed bondo with a soda blaster; doubly messy with the bondo bits and soda mess, but it did work. tim On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > Hello, > > I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo about > 1/8" > thick all over it. Does anybody > know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the fender, > but I > am worried that the bondo > will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some > plastics > are. > > Does methylene chloride paint stripper attack the stuff? How about > burning > it off? > > Thanks, > Doug > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From jblair1948 at cox.net Thu Oct 20 05:32:22 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:32:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20111020073026.04e3e808@cox.net> At 07:45 PM 10/19/2011, Douglas Braun wrote: >I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo about 1/8" thick all over it. Does anybody >know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the fender, but I am worried that the bondo >will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some plastics are. Doug, I had a fender like that on my Volvo P1800. What I used was a 4" grinder with a wire wheel on it. The wire wheel tore through the bondo very easily. It made a good bit of a mess, the bondo dust everywhere. :) But it worked well, and easily. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 20 07:16:03 2011 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:16:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: <481ff2a.194f5a.13320f971d2.Webtop.49@charter.net> References: <481ff2a.194f5a.13320f971d2.Webtop.49@charter.net> Message-ID: I'm no expert, but I've done some bodywork using bondo. Unless alot (too much?) hardener is used, wouldn't just sandpaper work? I applied and removed plenty of bondo using an orbital sander attached to a vacuum, and anywhere between 220 and 100 grit sandpaper. Easier than using a hand sander if all you need to do is remove high spots, but it should remove an 1/8" thick coating pretty easily with some 100 grit or lower. You guys and your sandblasters, methylene chloride and fire... ;-) -PJ > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:56:18 -0400 > From: tputland at charter.net > To: doug at dougbraun.com > CC: Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo > > I've removed bondo with a soda blaster; doubly messy with the bondo bits > and soda mess, but it did work. > > tim > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo about > > 1/8" > > thick all over it. Does anybody > > know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the fender, > > but I > > am worried that the bondo > > will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some > > plastics > > are. > > > > Does methylene chloride paint stripper attack the stuff? How about > > burning > > it off? > > > > Thanks, > > Doug From trmarty at hotmail.com Thu Oct 20 08:10:55 2011 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:10:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] DA Sanders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Going to buy a new air powered 6" DA sander for automotive use (hobby not for a living). All I have used is the old fashioned regular da sanders. I see they have them now with dust collection and self vacuuming systems. Sounds like it would be nice for keeping the dust down in the shop. Anybody have any experience with these? They actually work or do the cause more issues than their worth? Thanks, Marty From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Oct 20 09:05:59 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:05:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20111020073026.04e3e808@cox.net> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20111020073026.04e3e808@cox.net> Message-ID: <48D9FC2F218F4033B8DF062D353FBCDB@OwnerPC> IF YOU'RE NOT COUGHING UP BONDO DUST FOR THREE DAYS... YOU'RE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH !!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John T. Blair" To: "Shop-Talk" Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:32 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Removing bondo > At 07:45 PM 10/19/2011, Douglas Braun wrote: > > >I have an old fender (for a '31 Ford) that has a coat of bondo > about 1/8" thick all over it. Does anybody > >know a good way to remove it? I will eventually sandblast the > fender, but I am worried that the bondo > >will be resistant to sandblasting, sort of the way rubber or some > plastics are. > > Doug, > > I had a fender like that on my Volvo P1800. What I used was a 4" grinder > with a wire wheel on it. The > wire wheel tore through the bondo very easily. It made a good bit of a > mess, the bondo dust everywhere. :) But it worked well, and easily. > > John > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net > Va. Beach, Va > Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > 65 Rambler Classic > > Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan > Bricklin: www.bricklin.org > > If you can read this - Thank a teacher! > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > > From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: > e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." > In God We Trust > Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for > oneself; > freedom from control or restriction > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3963 - Release Date: 10/20/11 From arvidj at visi.com Thu Oct 20 09:29:06 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:29:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011> <7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com> Message-ID: <0EF076AD4A5E4765BFE52E0315D6D24C@HP62011> I totally agree, it can be done. I think the original post was "they just chucked a new piece in and cut new threads" and my intent was to suggest why it would might be quicker to just start over. Arvid -----Original Message----- From: David C. Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:02 PM To: Arvid Jedlicka Cc: Joe Szwed ; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a Not necessarily; chasing or "picking up" an existing thread on a lathe with a threading dial is (or at least was) a pretty straightforward task for the average machinist. You just get the cutting tool close to the threaded part, close the half nuts at the appropriate mark on the threading dial, stop the lathe, then very carefully use the cross and compound to seat the threading tool in the thread and proceed as normal. Dave Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > When they removed the pipe from the chuck after threading all bets were > off as to synchronizing the existing threads with the cutter when they > put it back in the chuck. Easier to just start over again. From jszwed at energykinetics.com Thu Oct 20 09:42:53 2011 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:42:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <0EF076AD4A5E4765BFE52E0315D6D24C@HP62011> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011> <7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com> <0EF076AD4A5E4765BFE52E0315D6D24C@HP62011> Message-ID: <69B5BA6165E946CEA1EC402F067B1A4A@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Arvid, Sorry for any confusion. In my original post I was just trying to point out that with using today's cnc equipment, it was faster for the shop to make a new part than fix the first one. With non-cnc equip, it would have been faster to fix the first part. Joe -----Original Message----- I totally agree, it can be done. I think the original post was "they just chucked a new piece in and cut new threads" and my intent was to suggest why it would might be quicker to just start over. Arvid From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Fri Oct 21 04:39:16 2011 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:39:16 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <053901cc8eed$60943220$0501a8c0@randall> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011><7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> <4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com> <053901cc8eed$60943220$0501a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4EA14BD4.5000009@talktalk.net> My recollection is that for ANY thred you can re-engage the nut on the same point that you were on the dial (eg if you were first engaged on 1 - you can always re-engage on 1). Certain threads can then be re-enagaged with the dial on the odds - so 1 or 3, some on any number, some on any mark (ie the halves as well). So, if in doubt, just wait for the original point on the dial... The other thing I have done on light threads is to run the lathe backwards - with the tool upside down. This allows you to cut a RH thread away from the chuck - which is useful if you are running up close to the chuck. Of course it puts all the wrong loads on the machine (having a tendancy to lift the slides off the bedways) so not ideal - but can be done for small cuts on a small thread. Neil On 20/10/2011 06:59, Randall wrote: > I agree. And even the threading dial is not strictly necessary. It > doesn't work anyway, for some small group of threads. (I forget the > rules offhand, but ISTR you can't use it for Whitworth threads.) If > you don't have one (or it doesn't work for the thread you're doing), > you just never open the half nuts and run the motor in reverse to move > the carriage back to the right. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Oct 21 09:51:52 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:51:52 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <4EA14BD4.5000009@talktalk.net> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011><7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com><053901cc8eed$60943220$0501a8c0@randall> <4EA14BD4.5000009@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <06b401cc9009$5a63d820$0501a8c0@randall> > My recollection is that for ANY thred you can re-engage the > nut on the > same point that you were on the dial (eg if you were first > engaged on 1 > - you can always re-engage on 1). You got me wondering, so I looked it up. On a lathe with Imperial threads on the leadscrew, engaging on 1 works for any thread that has an integer number of threads in 2 (or 4 for some lathes) inches. But metric (and BA, which is what I was thinking of when I said Whitworth before) threads typically don't have an integer number of threads in 4 inches, so the standard Imperial threading dial cannot be used when cutting those threads. Imagine the lathe stopped, with a long threaded bar between centers. Start with the half nuts engaged, the threading dial on '1', and the tool bit exactly in the thread groove. Now imagine moving the carriage to the right until the dial comes back on '1' and closing the half nuts again. The carriage has moved some number of inches (2" on my 10" Atlas). If, for example, your bar has 11.5 tpi, then the tool will be exactly 23 threads away from the original position and still at a thread groove. (Assuming you've taken up the slack correctly and so on.) But if, for example, your bar has 25.4 tpi, the tool will now be 50.8 threads away from the starting position, and not lined up on the groove. The rules are different for a metric leadscrew, of course, but similar limitations apply. From what I found on-line, most metric lathes come with 3 different gears for the thread dial (and still don't cover BA threads). Here's a neat little device that apparently includes the gears for both metric & imperial on the same leadscrew http://www.dgrdesigns.co.uk/metradial.html But it still doesn't appear to cover 4 BA (38.46 tpi) -- Randall From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Oct 21 09:53:52 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:53:52 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <4EA14BD4.5000009@talktalk.net> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011><7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com><053901cc8eed$60943220$0501a8c0@randall> <4EA14BD4.5000009@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <06b501cc9009$a1ea6420$0501a8c0@randall> > The other thing I have done on light threads is to run the lathe > backwards Not a good idea if your chuck screws onto the headstock (as mine does). -- Randall From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Fri Oct 21 17:20:40 2011 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:20:40 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <06b401cc9009$5a63d820$0501a8c0@randall> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011><7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com><053901cc8eed$60943220$0501a8c0@randall> <4EA14BD4.5000009@talktalk.net> <06b401cc9009$5a63d820$0501a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4EA1FE48.7070605@talktalk.net> mmm, makes sense. On 21/10/2011 16:51, Randall wrote: >> My recollection is that for ANY thred you can re-engage the >> nut on the >> same point that you were on the dial (eg if you were first >> engaged on 1 >> - you can always re-engage on 1). > You got me wondering, so I looked it up. On a lathe with Imperial threads > on the leadscrew, engaging on 1 works for any thread that has an integer > number of threads in 2 (or 4 for some lathes) inches. But metric (and BA, > which is what I was thinking of when I said Whitworth before) threads > typically don't have an integer number of threads in 4 inches, so the > standard Imperial threading dial cannot be used when cutting those threads. > > Imagine the lathe stopped, with a long threaded bar between centers. Start > with the half nuts engaged, the threading dial on '1', and the tool bit > exactly in the thread groove. Now imagine moving the carriage to the right > until the dial comes back on '1' and closing the half nuts again. The > carriage has moved some number of inches (2" on my 10" Atlas). If, for > example, your bar has 11.5 tpi, then the tool will be exactly 23 threads > away from the original position and still at a thread groove. (Assuming > you've taken up the slack correctly and so on.) But if, for example, your > bar has 25.4 tpi, the tool will now be 50.8 threads away from the starting > position, and not lined up on the groove. > > The rules are different for a metric leadscrew, of course, but similar > limitations apply. From what I found on-line, most metric lathes come with > 3 different gears for the thread dial (and still don't cover BA threads). > > Here's a neat little device that apparently includes the gears for both > metric& imperial on the same leadscrew > http://www.dgrdesigns.co.uk/metradial.html > > But it still doesn't appear to cover 4 BA (38.46 tpi) > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Fri Oct 21 17:26:00 2011 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:26:00 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] Identifying taper and threading attachments on a In-Reply-To: <06b501cc9009$a1ea6420$0501a8c0@randall> References: <1B9FB4B4C85C43988CF6533A293A8F6D@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><65884CFF6F01482B99CD50CD5947BC69@HP62011><7520E99DCA554F72827DAE1E259B3768@EnergyKinetics.EKnet><4E9F8126.3000707@frontier.com><053901cc8eed$60943220$0501a8c0@randall> <4EA14BD4.5000009@talktalk.net> <06b501cc9009$a1ea6420$0501a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4EA1FF88.6030309@talktalk.net> ...luckily the lathe in question had a Camlock mounting (and my own lathe has a keyed taper lock mounting). On 21/10/2011 16:53, Randall wrote: >> The other thing I have done on light threads is to run the lathe >> backwards > Not a good idea if your chuck screws onto the headstock (as mine does). > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From jniolon at bham.rr.com Mon Oct 24 13:07:14 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:07:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Valve Covers needed in my shop Message-ID: <706837D0CD1F447AB4A7AF2471223E7D@OwnerPC> I'm building a Ford 460 that will be in the truck in my SHOP (content) I'm looking for some TALL CHROME Ford Racing Valve Covers. These are discontinued and none are available on the internet that are CHROME only polished... any chance anyone has a set on the shelf or know of a source.. I'd appreciate a shout out thanks John From eric at megageek.com Mon Oct 24 15:14:25 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake dust wheel covers Message-ID: OK, I have a truck that I put on wheel covers to prevent the brake dust from making the rims black in a week. This discs just install inside the wheel between the rim and, I didn't think much of them. They work great for keeping the dust off the rims, but... I wore through a set of brake pads fairly quickly. When I put the new pads in, there was black brake dust everywhere. Now, since the pads where a brand I never used before, I'm not sure if they just wore fast because of their brand or if the brake covers affected their life. Does anyone have any input on these covers? I put new pads in (my usual brand) and removed the covers. Whats the wisdom with these covers? Good/ bad Could they have caused the faster wear of the brake shoes? Thanks in advance. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From racertod at racertodd.com Mon Oct 24 18:57:32 2011 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:57:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake dust wheel covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20111024175115.00bec8f8@mail.avvanta.com> I'd worry about the covers interfering with the ability of air to get in and cool the brakes. Might be one reason for the high wear rate you saw. I've switched to ceramic pads of late. They put out far, far less dust than the several other brands of semi-metallic pads I've used over the years. The dust is lighter in color and doesn't seem to stick to the wheels as much, comes off much easier when washing. Performance seems to be on par with other quality semi-metallics. Good performance cold, warm and in emergency braking situations. Quiet too, no unusual noises. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 307,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From jibjib at att.net Mon Oct 24 19:19:50 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:19:50 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake dust wheel covers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric, My solution: I switched to ceramic pads. The powder is light colored and is barely noticeable. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:14 PM To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake dust wheel covers OK, I have a truck that I put on wheel covers to prevent the brake dust from making the rims black in a week. This discs just install inside the wheel between the rim and, I didn't think much of them. They work great for keeping the dust off the rims, but... I wore through a set of brake pads fairly quickly. When I put the new pads in, there was black brake dust everywhere. Now, since the pads where a brand I never used before, I'm not sure if they just wore fast because of their brand or if the brake covers affected their life. Does anyone have any input on these covers? I put new pads in (my usual brand) and removed the covers. Whats the wisdom with these covers? Good/ bad Could they have caused the faster wear of the brake shoes? Thanks in advance. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From marka at maracing.com Tue Oct 25 08:38:46 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake dust wheel covers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > OK, I have a truck that I put on wheel covers to prevent the brake dust > from making the rims black in a week. > > This discs just install inside the wheel between the rim and, I didn't > think much of them. They work great for keeping the dust off the rims, > but... > > I wore through a set of brake pads fairly quickly. When I put the new > pads in, there was black brake dust everywhere. > > Now, since the pads where a brand I never used before, I'm not sure if > they just wore fast because of their brand or if the brake covers affected > their life. My guess is that you're seeing a difference in pads. Its possible that the shields are preventing cooling airflow and that that increases brake wear, but I find it more unlikley. 1st, its not like you're talking about a race car here... I have a hard time believing you're generating a ton of heat in the brakes. 2nd, even if you're generating a lot of heat, I'm not sure that translates into increased wear of pad material. MHO, and worth what you paid. Mark From pethier at comcast.net Thu Oct 27 13:14:22 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:14:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: old clay drain In-Reply-To: <80DA7D241EA244B2B68E161498F425B0@Dan> Message-ID: <433088282.1295092.1319742862838.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> consider getting a sewer contractor to line it without digging anything up. Cure-In-Place Pipelining, or CIPP. Or do you really need 5"? Sleeve it with 4" Schedule 40 PVC. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Fest" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 1:48:32 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: old clay drain > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan Fest > To: shop-talk at autox.team > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 1:31 PM > Subject: old clay drain > > > I am having trouble with an old clay (terra cota ??) drain pipe that > goes > under a portion of the house. Not sure why, but it cracked under a > slab > (froze??). I cut the slab and was fortunate to find the crack. I'd > like to > saw the crack spot out and use two ferncos with a short section of pvc > to fix. > The problem is that the ppe is 5". I am not sure if pvc comes in 5". > Does it > or does another type ?? > Thanks, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 14:28:42 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:28:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related Message-ID: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap stays on the purse. The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. The upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which is bad. I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some steel wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring originally sat. No dice. I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and tough rockos. I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how I'll get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp and it's got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll play nice with anything that can get that riveted bar off. So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I thought I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some pictures so it's better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any advice? My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to repair it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the '68 Cougar with the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how much she loves this thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to see if I could get a replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell like potpourri. Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:56:14 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:56:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. > > My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap stays on the http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com From parkanzky at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:59:12 2011 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:59:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: Does the strap ever need to come off the purse? A couple dabs of epoxy and you can solve the problem by permanently closing the clasp. If you are careful you can inject it into the mechanism without it showing anywhere and you won't be doing any cosmetic damage. -Paul On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. > > My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the > strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the > purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap > stays on the purse. > > The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. The > upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which is bad. > > I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some steel > wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring originally sat. > No dice. > > I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and tough > rockos. > > I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so > disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how I'll > get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp and it's > got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll play nice with > anything that can get that riveted bar off. > > So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I > thought I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some pictures > so it's better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any advice? > > My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to > repair it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the '68 > Cougar with the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how much she > loves this thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to see if I could > get a replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell like potpourri. > > Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. From mpless at servo.ucsd.edu Thu Oct 27 16:08:16 2011 From: mpless at servo.ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: It won't fix the clasp, but have you considered taking the purse to an old school shoe repair guy to see if he has any ideas? They can be pretty resourceful in areas that don't necessarily require welding. ;-) Perhaps a permanently attached strap is acceptable? On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Scott Hall wrote: > > But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. > > My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the > strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the > purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap > stays on the purse. > > The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. The > upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which is bad. > > I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some steel > wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring originally sat. No > dice. > > I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and tough > rockos. > > I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so > disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how I'll > get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp and it's got > some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll play nice with > anything that can get that riveted bar off. > > So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I thought > I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some pictures so it's > better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any advice? > > My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to repair > it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the '68 Cougar with > the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how much she loves this > thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to see if I could get a > replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell like potpourri. > > Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mpless at ucsd.edu From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Oct 27 16:16:50 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:16:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I can (and probably should) take some pictures Pictures of the wife or the clasp? I'm thinking it'd be easier to replace the whole clasp - would a "regular" carabineer work? Maybe paint it antique bronze? (Rustoleum sells a bronze colored hammer-finish paint.) Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From strovato at optonline.net Thu Oct 27 16:37:30 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:37:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0LTQ00C46XJP5WF0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Scott, Yes, I think pictures would help. Is it necessary to retain the detachable feature or could you do something to semi-permanently attach the strap? -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Thu Oct 27 17:11:45 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:11:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA9E531.3020703@comcast.net> On 10/27/2011 4:28 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. > > My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach > the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you > clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse > and the strap stays on the purse. > > The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. > The upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which > is bad. > > I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some > steel wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring > originally sat. No dice. > > I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and > tough rockos. > > I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so > disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how > I'll get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp > and it's got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll > play nice with anything that can get that riveted bar off. > > So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I > thought I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some > pictures so it's better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any > advice? > > My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to > repair it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the > '68 Cougar with the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how > much she loves this thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to > see if I could get a replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell > like potpourri. > > Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. Buy a plane ticket to NY. Go to Chinatown and purchase a cheap knock off with similar clasps. Transfer to new purse. Peter T. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Oct 27 17:15:06 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:15:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <027901cc94fe$44960c30$cdc22490$@rr.com> > I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some > steel wire What kind of steel wire? Paper clips aren't very "springy", I would think you'd want something more like piano wire. But twisting it into a loaded spring shape while stuffing it into the joint sounds very difficult (and likely bloody) to me. Obviously it has to be under considerable tension when you're done. > I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp A quick Google turned up all sorts of lobster clasps with antique brass finishes. You might find something there that would work, without looking too out of place. Eg, http://www.thefind.com/pets/browse-lobster-swivel-clips > and it's got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll > play nice with anything that can get that riveted bar off. Go slow, and keep it moist with water. You should be able to grind away the end of the rivet without overheating the clasp (which might also be pot metal that would melt easily). OSH used to carry an assortment of fine spring wire (aka piano wire); don't know if they still do. If not, I could probably part with some from my personal stash. -- Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Oct 27 17:17:45 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:17:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001201cc94fe$a2f067d0$e8d13770$@ameritech.net> Any possibility of just gluing the clasp closed? Karl -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hall Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap stays on the purse. The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. The upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which is bad. From kennedybc at comcast.net Thu Oct 27 17:27:10 2011 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:27:10 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: How about a jewelry store? Brian K On Oct 27, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Marcus Pless wrote: > It won't fix the clasp, but have you considered taking the purse to an old school shoe repair guy to see if he has any ideas? They can be pretty resourceful in areas that don't necessarily require welding. ;-) > > Perhaps a permanently attached strap is acceptable? > > > > On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Scott Hall wrote: >> >> But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. >> >> My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap stays on the purse. >> >> The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. The upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which is bad. >> >> I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some steel wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring originally sat. No dice. >> >> I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and tough rockos. >> >> I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how I'll get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp and it's got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll play nice with anything that can get that riveted bar off. >> >> So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I thought I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some pictures so it's better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any advice? >> >> My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to repair it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the '68 Cougar with the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how much she loves this thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to see if I could get a replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell like potpourri. >> >> Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. From arvidj at visi.com Thu Oct 27 17:45:04 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:45:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <0LTQ00C46XJP5WF0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> <0LTQ00C46XJP5WF0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <29B0FE135D4543129F55526DC8065630@HP62011> Not knowing exactly what a 'lobster clasp' looked like I Googled it. At least now I know what he is talking about. And maybe the replacement is out there amongst the many pages and ebay listing that it brought back. A new clasp and the 'old shoe maker who knows how to work with the strap' may be the ticket to marital bliss. -----Original Message----- From: Steven Trovato Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:37 PM To: Scott Hall ; shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related Scott, Yes, I think pictures would help. Is it necessary to retain the detachable feature or could you do something to semi-permanently attach the strap? -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From bk13 at earthlink.net Thu Oct 27 19:41:42 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:41:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EAA0856.1020504@earthlink.net> Scott - Check a bigger marketplace like Amazon for a replacement clasp. I searched for clasp then looked under sewing fasteners and found http://www.amazon.com/Latch-Clasp-Closure-Antique-Finish/dp/B001F3NG2A You could also search with Google images. Assuming the clasp can be unsewn from the strap, look for something close that will fit the strap and remove the thread. You can then go to a shoe repair place and have the strap end stitched back together on one of their big machines. SHOP CONTENT - If you want to sew it back together yourself, go to Harbor Freight and get a Quick Stitch Sewing Awl like http://www.harborfreight.com/quick-stitch-sewing-awl-91812.html and you can get thread through the heavy stuff like a tool belt that is coming apart. You will probably still have to go back to a fabric store for the right thread, but at least you might be closer to the new car. Brian On 10/27/2011 1:28 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. > > My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach > the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you > clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse > and the strap stays on the purse. > > The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. > The upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which > is bad. > > I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some > steel wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring > originally sat. No dice. > > I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and > tough rockos. > > I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so > disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how > I'll get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp > and it's got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll > play nice with anything that can get that riveted bar off. > > So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I > thought I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some > pictures so it's better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any > advice? > > My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to > repair it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the > '68 Cougar with the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how > much she loves this thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to > see if I could get a replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell > like potpourri. > > Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From mrkirbyv at yahoo.com Thu Oct 27 20:49:23 2011 From: mrkirbyv at yahoo.com (Kirby Vaughan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1319770163.42869.YahooMailNeo@web161702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott, Try Ottofrei.com . If they don't have a replacement clasp then you won't likely be able to find one. You might have to buy two to get an exact match but worth it for points... By the way, they have excellent prices on the small Smith oxy/acetylene torch and the Hoke torch if you want to pad your order. (Sounds fair to me...) Kirby... ________________________________ From: Scott Hall To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:28 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap stays on the purse. The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. The upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which is bad. I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some steel wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring originally sat. No dice. I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and tough rockos. I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how I'll get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp and it's got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll play nice with anything that can get that riveted bar off. So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I thought I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some pictures so it's better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any advice? My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to repair it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the '68 Cougar with the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how much she loves this thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to see if I could get a replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell like potpourri. Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mrkirbyv at yahoo.com From eric at megageek.com Thu Oct 27 20:30:43 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:30:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9E531.3020703@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul writes... >Buy a plane ticket to NY. Go to Chinatown and purchase a cheap knock >off with similar clasps. Transfer to new purse. If you send me a picture with name and brand, I'll hit the city for you to find it. Saves you the cost of a plane ticket. BTW, if you have a friend that knows Chinese, have him search websites in China. Every button, clasp, and snap of every brand purse and belt is available in the grey markets. You may have to buy a case of them, but I bet a case will cost less than a dinner for two. I only know thins from my police days working with the counterfeit guys. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From fortee9er at yahoo.com Thu Oct 27 20:56:41 2011 From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart Message-ID: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Whenever I go to the pick apart junkyard I find myself finding more stuff than I can possibly carry. The junkyard has some "wheelbarrows" available but they are extremely heavy, even when empty. I envision building something light and strong enough to carry a small tool box, a basket or bag for small parts, and space for a couple of wheels or a fender...etc. I am hoping that you guys could give me some ideas and possibly some pictures or drawings. Thanks Jorge From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 21:28:49 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:28:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EAA0856.1020504@earthlink.net> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> <4EAA0856.1020504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Scott - Check a bigger marketplace like Amazon for a replacement clasp. B I > searched for clasp then looked under sewing fasteners and found > http://www.amazon.com/Latch-Clasp-Closure-Antique-Finish/dp/B001F3NG2A > > You could also search with Google images. > > Assuming the clasp can be unsewn from the strap, look for something close > that will fit the strap and remove the thread. B You can then go to a shoe > repair place and have the strap end stitched back together on one of their > big machines. > Actually, if you're going to have it sewn by someone else, don't remove the thread. It's quite possible that the strap construction is more complicated than just folding the end over and sewing, and letting the person who's going to put it back together see that helps them out. (Shop content: It's why shops hate people who bring them half done jobs....) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From 57healey at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 22:38:56 2011 From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 23:38:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Repairing a clasp--could be shop-related In-Reply-To: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> References: <4EA9BEFA.5010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-3779425359256622348@unknownmsgid> According to my craft loving wife, Hobby Lobby or Joannes should have a purse making section and may have the clasp On Oct 27, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Scott Hall wrote: > But I'm asking here because you guys are the smartest guys I know. > > My the strap on my wife's purse has spring-loaded clasps that attach the strap to the purse. It's the same principle as a carabiner--you clip the purse latch/clasp over the ring on either end of the purse and the strap stays on the purse. > > The 'spring' in the clasp is (or was) a wire. Now the wire is gone. The upshot is that the strap won't stay attached to the purse, which is bad. > > I've tried threading a length of guitar cord, a paper clip, and some steel wire into the clasp in such a way that I think the spring originally sat. No dice. > > I've emailed the manufacturer who says the model is discontinued and tough rockos. > > I'm about to take a grinder to the bar holding the clasp latch in so disassemble the clasp to get a spring in there...I'm just not sure how I'll get it back together. I believe it's known as a 'lobster' clasp and it's got some antiqued-brass finish that doesn't look like it'll play nice with anything that can get that riveted bar off. > > So...since you guys literally seem to collectively know everything, I thought I'd ask here first. I can (and probably should) take some pictures so it's better explained what I'm trying to do, but...any advice? > > My wife literally LOVES this thing, and I suspect were I to be able to repair it, I could obtain (more easily, anyway) acquiescence for the '68 Cougar with the 390 purchase I've been contemplating. That's how much she loves this thing. I even went to some hobby/fabric store to see if I could get a replacement clasp. Nothing. Ugh. I still smell like potpourri. > > Help me out here, fellas, this might actually be important. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/57healey at gmail.com From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Oct 28 04:30:31 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 06:30:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like that you need when visiting Hershey! Doug On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Jorge Garcia wrote: > Whenever I go to the pick apart junkyard I find myself finding more stuff > than I can possibly carry. The junkyard has some "wheelbarrows" available > but they are extremely heavy, even when empty. I envision building something > light and strong enough to carry a small tool box, a basket or bag for small > parts, and space for a couple of wheels or a fender...etc. > I am hoping that you guys could give me some ideas and possibly some > pictures or drawings. > Thanks > Jorge From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Oct 28 05:29:01 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 06:29:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: References: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31536539A79348BD8A5E22F0CF191976@OwnerPC> I see lots of folks at car/truck shows pulling one of the big wheel kids wagons (with or without kids)with the cute wooden sideboards. Saw one with 4 rims and an intake/carb combo and a bunch of other crap in sacks...last month at Crusin the Coast in Biloxi. The big 8-10" tires make it easy to navigate over rough ground and it's much easier than lifting/pushing a wheel barrow. You can find the at yard sales and flea markets... or fabricate your own any size you need.. you could make a specialized "salvage vehicle" with a tool box rack and cooler if it's gonna be a day long excursion.... When you get back to the car/truck... toss it in the back with the loot ! No room in the trunk ?? got a receiver type trailer hitch ?? weld a 2" square tube across the bottom and slide it into the receiver on the car/truck.. pin it down and hit the road. john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Braun" To: ; "Shop-Talk" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:30 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart > Sounds like that you need when visiting Hershey! > > Doug > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Jorge Garcia > wrote: > >> Whenever I go to the pick apart junkyard I find myself finding more stuff >> than I can possibly carry. The junkyard has some "wheelbarrows" available >> but they are extremely heavy, even when empty. I envision building >> something >> light and strong enough to carry a small tool box, a basket or bag for >> small >> parts, and space for a couple of wheels or a fender...etc. >> I am hoping that you guys could give me some ideas and possibly some >> pictures or drawings. >> Thanks >> Jorge > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3979 - Release Date: 10/27/11 From arvidj at visi.com Fri Oct 28 07:06:30 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:06:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: <31536539A79348BD8A5E22F0CF191976@OwnerPC> References: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <31536539A79348BD8A5E22F0CF191976@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1A40E3FB74EF4CCF9329F6A69A54CD52@HP62011> Maybe something like this would do the job --- http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=wagon&Nty=1&D=wagon&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial >> Whenever I go to the pick apart junkyard I find myself finding more stuff >> than I can possibly carry. The junkyard has some "wheelbarrows" available >> but they are extremely heavy, even when empty. I envision building >> something >> light and strong enough to carry a small tool box, a basket or bag for >> small >> parts, and space for a couple of wheels or a fender...etc. >> I am hoping that you guys could give me some ideas and possibly some >> pictures or drawings. >> Thanks >> Jorge From bobkegel at comcast.net Fri Oct 28 08:17:02 2011 From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:17:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4216752BA64E433798D2AFC71F90677D@robertve2wc7wm> Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Tipke-2100-Marine-Fold-Utility/dp/B00006LPPJ ? Or http://www.gardeners.com/Large-Garden-Cart/GardeningTools_Carts,36-500RS,def ault,cp.html if you don't need to fold it up. From eric at megageek.com Fri Oct 28 12:28:49 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:28:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: While this isn't my original idea, I did make one... >http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/e3ec633d63693afb85256ba700060663/269e9d8c3fad4555852575d8006746ae?OpenDocument< It could be easily transferred to a cart with bigger tires and a better mountain bike! Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Jorge Garcia Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 10/27/2011 23:27 Please respond to fortee9err at yahoo.com To Shop-talk at autox.team.net cc Subject [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart Whenever I go to the pick apart junkyard I find myself finding more stuff than I can possibly carry. The junkyard has some "wheelbarrows" available but they are extremely heavy, even when empty. I envision building something light and strong enough to carry a small tool box, a basket or bag for small parts, and space for a couple of wheels or a fender...etc. I am hoping that you guys could give me some ideas and possibly some pictures or drawings. Thanks Jorge _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Fri Oct 28 14:43:49 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Oct 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > While this isn't my original idea, I did make one... > > Megageek.com wants a password to view that. -- David Hillman From eric at megageek.com Fri Oct 28 14:29:43 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:29:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, it's fixed now. Eric P "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson David Hillman 10/28/2011 16:20 To eric at megageek.com cc shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart On Fri, 28 Oct 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > While this isn't my original idea, I did make one... > > < http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/e3ec633d63693afb85256ba700060663/269e9d8c3fad4555852575d8006746ae?OpenDocument > Megageek.com wants a password to view that. -- David Hillman From fishplate at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 15:36:25 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:36:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ideas for a junkyard shopping cart In-Reply-To: References: <1319770601.32256.YahooMailClassic@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 2:28 PM, wrote: > While this isn't my original idea, I did make one... > > > I see your cart, and raise you a picnic table: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROYA12tQH4 It probably wouldn't be much use at the junkyard, though. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Oct 28 18:11:46 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 19:11:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tile backer board on concrete floor Message-ID: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> We're going to install onyx tile in our entryway - not much over 100 square feet. The floor is a concrete slab, but I have to build up the level by over 1-1/2" to match the adjacent hardwood. I planned to cross-lay a few layers of the gray-colored fiberglass-mesh-covered cement board that I always ignore when I go to buy drywall, but now that I'm looking for it I find that there's really a large selection of materials. Some seem relatively soft like cardboard (which concerns me), some are hard but very thin, etc. Given that I'm going over a solid concrete floor and it's not a shower (part of the area is indeed the powder room, but no shower), are there any compelling reasons to use one material over another? I plan to shoot nails through to the concrete to hold the underlayment in place, if that matters. Some of the boardI see is supposed to be installed on a bed of thin-set, but that's a problem because I'm leaving the very sound and well-adhered sheet vinyl floor in place as a vapor barrier. I'm sure it contains asbestos and it's really glued all over, so I'm not inclined to try to chisel it up. Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Karl Pilots - Looking down on people since 1903 From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Oct 28 20:00:01 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:00:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tile backer board on concrete floor In-Reply-To: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> References: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <3059682D-62B5-4219-9785-45AF69CF35B3@groupwbench.org> I wouldn't use nails; use screws made for the job. You'll need to pre-drill, and use an impact drill to set them. I can't remember the name of them now. They're blue, and come in a hex head and flush phillips (you want the phillips). And if by thin-set you mean a mortar-based product you add water to, that's the stuff. Don't use the vinyl pre-mixed stuff, it stays soft forever. I'd use the cheapest product there was, likely the cementboard. jim On Oct 28, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > We're going to install onyx tile in our entryway - not much over 100 square > feet. The floor is a concrete slab, but I have to build up the level by > over 1-1/2" to match the adjacent hardwood. > > > > I planned to cross-lay a few layers of the gray-colored > fiberglass-mesh-covered cement board that I always ignore when I go to buy > drywall, but now that I'm looking for it I find that there's really a large > selection of materials. Some seem relatively soft like cardboard (which > concerns me), some are hard but very thin, etc. Given that I'm going over a > solid concrete floor and it's not a shower (part of the area is indeed the > powder room, but no shower), are there any compelling reasons to use one > material over another? > > I plan to shoot nails through to the concrete to hold the underlayment in > place, if that matters. Some of the boardI see is supposed to be installed > on a bed of thin-set, but that's a problem because I'm leaving the very > sound and well-adhered sheet vinyl floor in place as a vapor barrier. I'm > sure it contains asbestos and it's really glued all over, so I'm not > inclined to try to chisel it up. > > Any advice will be appreciated. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Karl > > > > > > Pilots - > > Looking down on people since 1903 > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org From fishplate at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 20:26:44 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:26:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tile backer board on concrete floor In-Reply-To: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> References: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > Any advice will be appreciated. Not advice, per se, but thoughts... I'd use a hard backerboard, and I'd put the thinset down. Your goal should be to make a surface that doesn't flex; so you need the gap-filling of the thinset to make sure there aren't any voids under the board. If it's a slab in contact with the ground, I'd use the moisture-proof board (I think it's green around here). A stout board will make up the height easily and flex less. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From hillman at planet-torque.com Fri Oct 28 21:13:40 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 23:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Tile backer board on concrete floor In-Reply-To: <3059682D-62B5-4219-9785-45AF69CF35B3@groupwbench.org> References: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> <3059682D-62B5-4219-9785-45AF69CF35B3@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Oct 2011, Jim Franklin wrote: > I wouldn't use nails; use screws made for the job. You'll need to pre-drill, > and use an impact drill to set them. I can't remember the name of them now. > They're blue, and come in a hex head and flush phillips (you want the > phillips). Tapcons. If I were the original poster, I would take some pictures of the current floor, and go to johnbridge.com, and ask on the forum there. No offense to the august list, but where tiling is concerned, you won't find better advice anywhere. -- David Hillman From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Oct 28 22:11:06 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 23:11:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tile backer board on concrete floor In-Reply-To: References: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <4EAB7CDA.1000506@tx.rr.com> The green board is moisture-resistant sheetrock. The cement backer boards are usually a gray color (from the cement). You don't want the green stuff for a floor application. I would pick the thickest cement board I could get that seemed reasonably solid. The screws are called "tapcon", at least that is what one manufacturer calls them. A lot of different manufacturers make them now and have their own names for them. I second the use of thin set to fill the gaps, even if it might not bond to the original vinyl floor. I don't think bonding is essential if it is attached where it can't move around, and if it is thick enough. For instance many tile showers have a lining of a PVC sheet, with concrete, thinset and tile applied over that, and it is solid enough and works fine. The layer on top of the PVC sheet is thick enough to maintain its own integrity. However some thinset has latex in it and might be able to bond to the vinyl flooring somewhat. I've used the "cake frosting" material in the past and that stuff eventually did get really hard. > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: >> Any advice will be appreciated. > Not advice, per se, but thoughts... > > I'd use a hard backerboard, and I'd put the thinset down. Your goal > should be to make a surface that doesn't flex; so you need the > gap-filling of the thinset to make sure there aren't any voids under > the board. If it's a slab in contact with the ground, I'd use the > moisture-proof board (I think it's green around here). A stout board > will make up the height easily and flex less. > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.920 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3981 - Release Date: 10/28/11 13:44:00 From herby at herbytoys.com Fri Oct 28 22:58:56 2011 From: herby at herbytoys.com (Herby) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 21:58:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] T8 Electronic ballasts Message-ID: I'm planning on redoing all the 4 ft fluorescent fixtures in my garage to T8's (I have 8 2 tube and 1 single tube) . I know I can buy new but I like my fixtures. What are the better brand ballasts to buy? I was looking at GE and Advance. I checked the archives and read not so good things about Sylvania but couldn't find a consensus for preference. What say the Shop Listerati? herby at herbytoys.com From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Oct 29 07:03:52 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:03:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: T8 Electronic ballasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have 8-foot T12 HO light fixtures in my garage (the bulbs with funny lozenge-shaped end connectors). I had noticed that the magnetic ballasts get real hot, and I pined for electronic ones. But they were quite expensive from electrical supply catalogs- more than I paid Home Depot for the fixtures . Then one day I noticed that HD was carrying the correct electronic ballasts from GE, for only $35, so I immediately bought two of them, and installed them in my light fixtures. They worked great- no more humming or buzzing. But that is the best brand? I have no idea. They are probably all made in one big factory in China, anyway. The price ond convenience of getting them at HD trumped the choice of brands. Doug On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Herby wrote: > I'm planning on redoing all the 4 ft fluorescent fixtures in my garage to > T8's (I have 8 2 tube and 1 single tube) . I know I can buy new but I like > my fixtures. What are the better brand ballasts to buy? I was looking at GE > and Advance. I checked the archives and read not so good things about > Sylvania but couldn't find a consensus for preference. What say the Shop > Listerati? From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Oct 29 08:34:56 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 10:34:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tile backer board on concrete floor In-Reply-To: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> References: <000001cc95cf$5956c750$0c0455f0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20111029103046.04e2a458@cox.net> At 08:11 PM 10/28/2011, Karl Vacek wrote: >We're going to install onyx tile in our entryway - not much over 100 square feet. The floor is a concrete slab, but I >have to build up the level by over 1-1/2" to match the adjacent hardwood. Karl, Would this work? If so it should save you a ton of money and a lot of work work. Use just enough floor leveler to make sure the slab is smooth and level. Then lay your tile. This will leave you with something like a 1-1/2" mismatch. You can then get a piece of wood and make a transition plate to cover the lip. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Oct 29 08:50:00 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 10:50:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] T8 Electronic ballasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have 8-foot T12 HO light fixtures in my garage (the bulbs with funny lozenge-shaped end connectors). I had noticed that the magnetic ballasts get real hot, and I pined for electronic ones. But they were quite expensive from electrical supply catalogs- more than I paid Home Depot for the fixtures . Then one day I noticed that HD was carrying the correct electronic ballasts from GE, for only $35, so I immediately bought two of them, and installed them in my light fixtures. They worked great- no more humming or buzzing. But that is the best brand? I have no idea. They are probably all made in one big factory in China, anyway. The price ond convenience of getting them at HD trumped the choice of brands. Doug On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Herby wrote: > > I'm planning on redoing all the 4 ft fluorescent fixtures in my garage to > T8's (I have 8 2 tube and 1 single tube) . I know I can buy new but I like > my fixtures. What are the better brand ballasts to buy? I was looking at GE > and Advance. I checked the archives and read not so good things about > Sylvania but couldn't find a consensus for preference. What say the Shop > Listerati? From tputland at charter.net Mon Oct 31 04:01:40 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Tile backer board on concrete floor Message-ID: <62b35af.20379f.13359a45203.Webtop.46@charter.net> Not trying to start a flame war here......We've got a bout an inch and a half difference between the original hard wood in our dining room (110 year old craftsman) and the multiple layers (elcheapo kitchen laminant over very thick plywood--installed by a PO--over the original hardwood floor) on the kitchen floor. Even with a transition piece of wood, it is a pain and does not look right. Do yourself a favor and try to avoid this approach. Tim On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:34 AM, John T. Blair wrote: > At 08:11 PM 10/28/2011, Karl Vacek wrote: > >> We're going to install onyx tile in our entryway - not much over 100 >> square feet. The floor is a concrete slab, but I >> have to build up the level by over 1-1/2" to match the adjacent >> hardwood. > > Karl, > > Would this work? If so it should save you a ton of money and a lot of > work work. > > Use just enough floor leveler to make sure the slab is smooth and > level. Then lay your tile. > > This will leave you with something like a 1-1/2" mismatch. You can > then get a piece of wood and make a transition > plate to cover the lip. > > John > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net > Va. Beach, Va > Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > 65 Rambler Classic > > Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan > Bricklin: www.bricklin.org > > If you can read this - Thank a teacher! > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > > From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: > e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." > In God We Trust > Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for > oneself; freedom from control or restriction > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net