From eric at megageek.com Tue Mar 1 05:07:34 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 07:07:34 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <4D6C8253.7000808@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com writes... >I've done everything on the list. (And don't you mean "tiling" instead >of "tilling"?) Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I've done BOTH!!!! Where exactly did this list appear? In fact, depending on the publication, I might be apt to agree. If it was in Comso or National Inquirer, I'd say we are all better off if they leave this to the professionals. In fact, readers of those rags should leave EVERYTHING to the professionals and they should just sit on their couch and stay out of the way. 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 06:08:44 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 08:08:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6CEFDC.8090406@gmail.com> I know a lot of people that aren't willing to even install a ceiling fan, lest they electrocute themselves and burn the house down. It makes no sense to me, but enough of my co-workers thought I'm a full-time G.C. (never mind what I'm doing at the office all day, I guess) because I cleaned out a sink once to tell me that list wouldn't surprise them. But cleaning the gutters? Seriously? Hire someone to clean your gutters? On 2/28/2011 11:33 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > I just saw a news story about home improvement projects you shouldn't > do your self. (I'm not going to name it, because well, it's crap, and > screw their advertisers.) > It lists; > tilling > plumbing > wiring > window and door installs > ceiling fans > structural work > siding > roofing > painting > cleaning the gutters. > > The reasons given are "trust the professionals" and "you're too stupid". > I'm not quite sure what they mean to leave on the list. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 06:10:19 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 08:10:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> Message-ID: <4D6CF03B.6060907@gmail.com> On 3/1/2011 12:23 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > "No user serviceable parts inside." "That's what you think." --what always pops in my head when i see that. Where's that tamper-resistant torx driver? :-) From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Tue Mar 1 06:45:12 2011 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 08:45:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110301134512.GA4759@sackheads.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 11:33:59PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > tilling > plumbing > wiring > window and door installs > ceiling fans > structural work > siding > roofing > painting > cleaning the gutters. > ... > The reasons given are "trust the professionals" There's a show on TV called "Holmes on Homes" that tends to call that mantra into question. Each episode features a botched renovation ostensibly performed by professionals who didn't know what they were doing[1]. Improper tiling, plumbing, window installs, roofing, dangerous structural changes...in fact pretty much everything on that list has been featured at one time or another. The moral of the show is to make sure the proper inspections are performed but inspectors can't/won't find everything. For example, a city inspector isn't going to verify that the proper thinset mortar was used on a tile job or that stucco was applied correctly. So the not-so-hidden message seems to be that the homeowner needs to know how to properly do these jobs (even if they're being contracted out) in order to recognize problems early. [1] There are two sides to every story and it's unfortunate the show doesn't interview said contractors to get their side. Perhaps the homeowner placed unreasonable constraints on the job that forced corners to be cut. But most of the blunders were clearly due to incompetence or negligence (ie. cutting through joists to run HVAC or plumbing). J From fishplate at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 07:14:27 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 09:14:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <4D6CEFDC.8090406@gmail.com> References: <4D6CEFDC.8090406@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > > But cleaning the gutters? Seriously? Hire someone to clean your gutters? Actually, that's the one job I hire out. Some of my gutters are 30 feet off the ground. (I wound up having really expensive non-clogging gutters installed. Cheaper than the hospital bill when I fall.) Everything else on the list is fair game for me, though. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net Tue Mar 1 07:18:05 2011 From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 14:18:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <1050343168.225679.1298988767043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <474385092.226030.1298989085124.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Forgive the heresy, but gutter cleaning is one I agree should be left to the pros, unless you live in a single story ranch. Not because the task itself is difficult, but because of the need to use a ladder and the fact that too many people do not know how to use one properly or safely and try to work alone without a spotter to steady the ladder. I'm a volunteer EMT in a small town with no major highways, and the worst trauma cases we have had in our town over the last few years have all involved falls from ladders. In fact, the only time I can remember we needed to transport someone by helicopter ambulance from our town was after a fall from a ladder. Last year, a very experienced and competent professional fire fighter from a couple of towns over fell from a ladder while working around his house and died. Now, I will admit I do not like climbing ladders more than 6 or 8 feet tall and perhaps that colors my judgement, but unless you use a lot of care and caution when cleaning the gutters on a second (or third) story roof it really can be quite dangerous. The $30 it costs me to have someone clean my gutters is cheap compared to my insurance deductible or the cost of a wheel chair (or casket). Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Hall" To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2011 8:08:44 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. I know a lot of people that aren't willing to even install a ceiling fan, lest they electrocute themselves and burn the house down. It makes no sense to me, but enough of my co-workers thought I'm a full-time G.C. (never mind what I'm doing at the office all day, I guess) because I cleaned out a sink once to tell me that list wouldn't surprise them. But cleaning the gutters? Seriously? Hire someone to clean your gutters? On 2/28/2011 11:33 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > I just saw a news story about home improvement projects you shouldn't > do your self. (I'm not going to name it, because well, it's crap, and > screw their advertisers.) > It lists; > tilling > plumbing > wiring > window and door installs > ceiling fans > structural work > siding > roofing > painting > cleaning the gutters. > > The reasons given are "trust the professionals" and "you're too stupid". > I'm not quite sure what they mean to leave on the list. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 07:22:55 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 09:22:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > David, > > It's like the labels on the back of equipment most of us open up to work on > regularly. B "No user serviceable parts inside." > > I have just one work. . . . . HA! The original justification for that label was "it means 'no user serviceable parts' are behind that cover, not 'this isn't fixable'." In other words, no fuses, tubes, or light bulbs. On the back of a TV, where there were bits the end user was expected to fix, and also bits that can kill you, it makes a whole lot sense. I haven't seen that actual label in a long time, now that I think about it. A service person may find things to do there, of course. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 07:23:51 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 09:23:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: <4D6C8253.7000808@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 7:07 AM, wrote: > bjshov8 at tx.rr.com writes... > >>I've done everything on the list. B (And don't you mean "tiling" instead >>of "tilling"?) B Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. > > I've done BOTH!!!! > > Where exactly did this list appear? B In fact, depending on the > publication, I might be apt to agree. Something that pretends to be a main stream media outlet. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From paul.mele at usermail.com Tue Mar 1 07:24:19 2011 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 09:24:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006501cbd81c$5a776890$0f6639b0$@mele@usermail.com> ..."painting"...??? From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Mar 1 07:24:31 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 09:24:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: <4D6C8253.7000808@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110301092231.04dd7648@cox.net> At 07:07 AM 3/1/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: >If it was in Comso or National Inquirer, I'd say we are all better off if they leave >this to the professionals. In fact, readers of those rags should leave >EVERYTHING to the professionals and they should just sit on their couch and >stay out of the way. 8>) Moose, I don't know about that. Maybe we should have them do the work, we need to clean the gene pool. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From marka at maracing.com Tue Mar 1 08:45:10 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 10:45:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <474385092.226030.1298989085124.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <474385092.226030.1298989085124.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Tom & Marge FitzGibbon wrote: > The $30 it costs me to have someone clean my gutters is cheap compared > to my insurance deductible or the cost of a wheel chair (or casket). It only costs $30 to get someone to clean out your gutters? Hell, I need to look into hiring a pro to do it then! And not because its dangerous, either. :-) Mark From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Mar 1 09:01:24 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 08:01:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <4D6CEFDC.8090406@gmail.com> References: <4D6CEFDC.8090406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1b6001cbd829$eaa10130$0301a8c0@randall> > I know a lot of people that aren't willing to even install a ceiling > fan, lest they electrocute themselves and burn the house > down. Might be something to be said for that, considering the sloppy work I've seen. Ceiling fans are particularly troublesome because of the continuous motion (while running) and weight, plus the potential for falling on someone's head. When I bought this house, I discovered that one of them was just hanging on the drywall! But the real point, as always, is "Don't believe everything you read". -- Randall From strovato at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 09:49:02 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 11:49:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> Message-ID: <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> You should check out Make Magazine. Their slogan is "If you can't open it, you don't own it". Here's the Maker's Bill of Rights: * Meaningful and specific parts lists shall be included. * Cases shall be easy to open. * Batteries should be replaceable. * Special tools are allowed only for darn good reasons. * Profiting by selling expensive special tools is wrong and not making special tools available is even worse. * Torx is OK; tamperproof is rarely OK. * Components, not entire sub-assemblies, shall be replaceable. * Consumables, like fuses and filters, shall be easy to access. * Circuit boards shall be commented. * Power from USB is good; power from proprietary power adapters is bad. * Standard connecters shall have pinouts defined. * If it snaps shut, it shall snap open. * Screws better than glues. * Docs and drivers shall have permalinks and shall reside for all perpetuity at archive.org. * Ease of repair shall be a design ideal, not an afterthought. * Metric or standard, not both. * Schematics shall be included. Here's the site: http://makezine.com -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 12:23 AM 3/1/2011, Jack Brooks wrote: >It's like the labels on the back of equipment most of us open up to work on >regularly. "No user serviceable parts inside." From strovato at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 09:56:46 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 11:56:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: <474385092.226030.1298989085124.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <0LHE005MS1QV1K20@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Right. Not in my neighborhood. And often (not always) the "pro" you actually get doing the dangerous work is some poor guy with no more training or skill than you have. His risk aversion is just overcome by his desire for food and shelter. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 10:45 AM 3/1/2011, Mark Andy wrote: >Howdy, > >On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Tom & Marge FitzGibbon wrote: >>The $30 it costs me to have someone clean my gutters is cheap >>compared to my insurance deductible or the cost of a wheel chair (or casket). > >It only costs $30 to get someone to clean out your gutters? > >Hell, I need to look into hiring a pro to do it then! And not >because its dangerous, either. :-) From rkg at teleport.com Tue Mar 1 10:43:59 2011 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 09:43:59 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <0LHE005MS1QV1K20@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <474385092.226030.1298989085124.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <0LHE005MS1QV1K20@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4D6D305F.90307@teleport.com> And the fun part is when he falls off, breaks his back, and you find out he didn't have insurance when the papers are served to you =8-0 On 3/1/2011 8:56 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Right. Not in my neighborhood. And often (not always) the "pro" you > actually get doing the dangerous work is some poor guy with no more > training or skill than you have. His risk aversion is just overcome > by his desire for food and shelter. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 10:45 AM 3/1/2011, Mark Andy wrote: >> Howdy, >> >> On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Tom & Marge FitzGibbon wrote: >>> The $30 it costs me to have someone clean my gutters is cheap >>> compared to my insurance deductible or the cost of a wheel chair (or >>> casket). >> >> It only costs $30 to get someone to clean out your gutters? >> >> Hell, I need to look into hiring a pro to do it then! And not >> because its dangerous, either. :-) > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rkg at teleport.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 10:50:39 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 12:50:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > You should check out Make Magazine. B Their slogan is "If you can't > open it, you don't own it". B Here's the Maker's Bill of Rights: Who's willing to pay for that? "Sorry, the battery charger that used to cost 20 bucks, now costs 300, and is the size of a toaster, because we can't use an ASIC.' just doesn't fly with most people who don't know how to use a soldering iron. (it doesn't fly with me, either, who does know how to use a soldering iron.) Yes, I'd like to see some of these things, (documentation costs nothing) but I'm not willing to pay more for stupid things like screws that can't be put on with a machine. Or screws where glue is really the right solution. > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Mar 1 11:16:23 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:16:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, David Scheidt wrote: > (documentation costs nothing) On what planet? -- David Hillman From d_kroninger at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 11:19:44 2011 From: d_kroninger at hotmail.com (Dan Kroninger) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 12:19:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Vinyl siding Message-ID: Hello, I have a hole in the vinyl siding of my house. I believe either the mower or weed eater launched a stone into it, the stone was lodged in house wrap under the siding. Is there a way to fix this hole? I was thinking duct tape (lol) but I would like the repair to be a bit less visible. Thanks, Dan From fishplate at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 11:27:04 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:27:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Here's the site: > > http://makezine.com Right. Like I need ~another~ hobby. From strovato at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 11:48:21 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 13:48:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0LHE008OP6Y832A0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yeah, it's more of an attitude and a wish list. There are a lot things that could be improved for "guys like us" for free or very little cost, if it was a priority for the manufacturer. But it's not, and they'd rather we just throw stuff away and buy replacements. At 12:50 PM 3/1/2011, David Scheidt wrote: >Who's willing to pay for that? "Sorry, the battery charger that used >to cost 20 bucks, now costs 300, and is the size of a toaster, because >we can't use an ASIC.' just doesn't fly with most people who don't >know how to use a soldering iron. (it doesn't fly with me, either, >who does know how to use a soldering iron.) Yes, I'd like to see some >of these things, (documentation costs nothing) but I'm not willing to >pay more for stupid things like screws that can't be put on with a >machine. Or screws where glue is really the right solution. From strovato at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 11:53:55 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 13:53:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Vinyl siding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LHE00B7Q78884V0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Dan, I hate to say this, because it makes me sound like a bit of a jerk, but if you do a search for "vinyl siding repair" you will find dozens of sites with how-to instructions. Some even with videos. Or you could just stick with the duct tape. :-) -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 01:19 PM 3/1/2011, Dan Kroninger wrote: >Hello, > >I have a hole in the vinyl siding of my house. I believe either the mower or >weed eater launched a stone into it, the stone was lodged in house wrap under >the siding. Is there a way to fix this hole? I was thinking duct tape (lol) >but I would like the repair to be a bit less visible. From d_kroninger at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 12:01:35 2011 From: d_kroninger at hotmail.com (Dan Kroninger) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:01:35 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Vinyl siding In-Reply-To: <0LHE00B7Q78884V0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: , <0LHE00B7Q78884V0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: No worries, Steve. That is my usual route of searching, but I dont have google access here at work (damn the man!). Just figured I would see what people said. I wlll google it tonight. Dan > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:53:55 -0500 > From: strovato at optonline.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Vinyl siding > To: d_kroninger at hotmail.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Dan, > > I hate to say this, because it makes me sound like a bit of a jerk, > but if you do a search for "vinyl siding repair" you will find dozens > of sites with how-to instructions. Some even with videos. Or you > could just stick with the duct tape. :-) > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 01:19 PM 3/1/2011, Dan Kroninger wrote: > >Hello, > > > >I have a hole in the vinyl siding of my house. I believe either the mower or > >weed eater launched a stone into it, the stone was lodged in house wrap under > >the siding. Is there a way to fix this hole? I was thinking duct tape (lol) > >but I would like the repair to be a bit less visible. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Mar 1 13:09:16 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 12:09:16 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <163001cbd84c$8b5b1f30$a2115d90$@rr.com> > * Cases shall be easy to open. Actually, any case is easy to open, if you have the right tools. Closing it afterwards might be somewhat harder, but JB Weld is cheap. On a more serious note, sometimes there are valid reasons for having a totally sealed case. In some cases it simply comes down to cost, most folks would rather get a unit that cannot be serviced than pay twice as much for one that can be serviced. But there can also be much more subtle issues, like the quality of an RF connection inside a cell phone. A bad connection may let the unit appear to work, and yet generate enough radiation to violate standards (or even be hazardous to the user). -- Randall From fishplate at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 13:22:49 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 15:22:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <163001cbd84c$8b5b1f30$a2115d90$@rr.com> References: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> <0LHE006BY1DX4YM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <163001cbd84c$8b5b1f30$a2115d90$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Randall wrote: > On a more serious note, sometimes there are valid reasons for having a > totally sealed case. UL certification is probably another big reason. From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Tue Mar 1 13:38:20 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 15:38:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110301203820.NBNDU.243780.root@cdptpa-web07-z01> "A man's got to know his limitations." (Dirty Harry) I have no doubt that the people here are very self sufficient but also capable of knowing their limitations. I have done everything on list, including tilling / tiling, but there are some jobs that I'm not very good at and others that I just don't want to do anymore. I know my limitations and I make a decision as to what I will do and what I should have someone else do. I think the average person should be more self sufficient, but for every person that hires someone to do a job that they probably could do, there are others who try to do things that they probably should hire someone to do. > > But cleaning the gutters? Seriously? Hire someone to clean your gutters? > > Actually, that's the one job I hire out. Some of my gutters are 30 > feet off the ground. > > (I wound up having really expensive non-clogging gutters installed. > Cheaper than the hospital bill when I fall.) From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Tue Mar 1 13:47:28 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 15:47:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Vinyl siding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110301204728.KG7BG.243862.root@cdptpa-web07-z01> My guess, off the top of my head: Find some repair material, either similar plastic or maybe even sheet metal. Cut a strip with width just less than the largest dimension of the opening, so the strip will slip through the opening. Make the length of the strip equal to about twice the dimension of the opening. Tie a string around the middle of the strip. Put glue on each end of the strip, push the entire strip through the opening, use the string to pull it back against the inside surface of the siding. It should now fill the opening or almost fill the opening. After the glue dries you can caulk the surface if desired and paint to match. The biggest challenge would seem to be finding a glue that will bond to the vinyl siding. > I have a hole in the vinyl siding of my house. I believe either the mower or > weed eater launched a stone into it, the stone was lodged in house wrap under > the siding. Is there a way to fix this hole? I was thinking duct tape (lol) > but I would like the repair to be a bit less visible. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Mar 1 13:55:30 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 12:55:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <20110301203820.NBNDU.243780.root@cdptpa-web07-z01> References: <20110301203820.NBNDU.243780.root@cdptpa-web07-z01> Message-ID: <163401cbd853$0051d800$00f58800$@rr.com> > there are others who try to do things that > they probably should hire someone to do. Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. -- Randall From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Mar 1 14:03:38 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 15:03:38 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Vinyl siding In-Reply-To: <20110301204728.KG7BG.243862.root@cdptpa-web07-z01> References: <20110301204728.KG7BG.243862.root@cdptpa-web07-z01> Message-ID: You could always remove the entire length and replace it... but you'll run into color match if it's been up long... next guess is try one of the siding sellers and get some scrap that matches the pattern and do like BJSHOV8 suggested with the patch from the back... I'd think that any of the waterproof 'goop' products would hold it in... next guess is try fiberglass filler or bondo for the fill (maybe with some backer) and scribe lines in lightly to match pattern... paint to match... john >> I have a hole in the vinyl siding of my house. I believe either the >> mower or >> weed eater launched a stone into it, the stone was lodged in house wrap >> under >> the siding. Is there a way to fix this hole? I was thinking duct tape >> (lol) >> but I would like the repair to be a bit less visible. > _______________________________________________ From marka at maracing.com Tue Mar 1 14:34:53 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 16:34:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Vinyl siding In-Reply-To: References: , <0LHE00B7Q78884V0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Dan Kroninger wrote: > That is my usual route of searching, but I dont have google access here at > work (damn the man!). Just figured I would see what people said. I wlll > google it tonight. Wow. There's a company dumber than mine! :-) Mark From mark at bradakis.com Tue Mar 1 21:42:42 2011 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 21:42:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <163401cbd853$0051d800$00f58800$@rr.com> References: <20110301203820.NBNDU.243780.root@cdptpa-web07-z01> <163401cbd853$0051d800$00f58800$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4D6DCAC2.5070602@bradakis.com> I probably shouldn't let this topic drag on, but I can't resist. A number of years ago I was back in Indiana at my dad's house. The plan for the weekend was to hook up the shiny new gas stove to replace the decrepit old electric unit. No real problem, a fairly simple extension of an existing gas line. The most difficult part of the process was convincing my stepmother that we would not blow up the house. Sheesh. mjb. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 16:30:52 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 18:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question Message-ID: Before the cheap electric motor, it was usual to run machines in a shop from a central engine (steam, water, hamster wheel) with a big endless belt running over head. At each machine, a second belt carried power from the overhead to the machine's driven shaft. Is there a general term for this sort of set up? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From pat at hornesystemstx.com Wed Mar 2 17:17:30 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:17:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6EDE1A.60400@hornesystemstx.com> Line shaft. The central engine turned a shaft that had pulleys on it with belts down to each piece of equipment. I had a 12" jointer made in the early 1920's that was set up for line shaft operation, a motor was an option. Peace, Pat Thusly spake David Scheidt, On 3/2/2011 5:30 PM: > Before the cheap electric motor, it was usual to run machines in a > shop from a central engine (steam, water, hamster wheel) with a big > endless belt running over head. At each machine, a second belt > carried power from the overhead to the machine's driven shaft. Is > there a general term for this sort of set up? > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Mar 2 17:21:14 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 18:21:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601cbd938$e8d15520$ba73ff60$@ameritech.net> You mean an overhead drive shaft (or in larger factories there'd be a series of them running parallel over the shop), each turned by an endless belt, right? I've heard them called overhead drive shaft, overhead shaft, jack shaft, master shaft... They most always had flat belts (leather or canvas) and crowned pulleys, which usually ran amazingly true no matter how misaligned they seemed and how ratty the belt. Karl -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Scheidt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 17:31 To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question Before the cheap electric motor, it was usual to run machines in a shop from a central engine (steam, water, hamster wheel) with a big endless belt running over head. At each machine, a second belt carried power from the overhead to the machine's driven shaft. Is there a general term for this sort of set up? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/kvacek at ameritech.net From jblair1948 at cox.net Wed Mar 2 17:34:06 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 19:34:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110302193400.04ce79f0@cox.net> At 06:30 PM 3/2/2011, you wrote: >Before the cheap electric motor, it was usual to run machines in a >shop from a central engine (steam, water, hamster wheel) with a big >endless belt running over head. At each machine, a second belt >carried power from the overhead to the machine's driven shaft. Is >there a general term for this sort of set up? David, All I've ever heard it called is "line" for in-line. We had a 1906 Lodge and Shipley Line lathe. It had a stepped drum for the belt to go up to the overhead drive shaft. The lathe was modified by the addition of an electric motor to turn another drum then the belt down to the main drive drum. I thought that was a fantastic lathe. But dad sold it about 10 yrs ago and bought a newer, about 80 yrs newer, jet lathe. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 2 17:36:22 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 16:36:22 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: <4D6EDE1A.60400@hornesystemstx.com> References: <4D6EDE1A.60400@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <184601cbd93b$059ec460$10dc4d20$@rr.com> > Line shaft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft -- Randall From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 18:05:25 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:05:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: <184601cbd93b$059ec460$10dc4d20$@rr.com> References: <4D6EDE1A.60400@hornesystemstx.com> <184601cbd93b$059ec460$10dc4d20$@rr.com> Message-ID: *Line Shaft is the usual term for sure.* ** *I had the pleasure of attending the Pawnee Oklahoma steam tractor meet a couple of years back and I was delighted to find that they also have a steam powered lineshaft* *operated machine shop with operators and lots of smiling visitors watching the swarf fly as the steam engine made "whuf-whuf-whuf" noises.* *Tony* From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 2 18:20:19 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 17:20:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: References: <4D6EDE1A.60400@hornesystemstx.com> <184601cbd93b$059ec460$10dc4d20$@rr.com> Message-ID: <185001cbd941$298450b0$7c8cf210$@rr.com> > I was delighted to find that they also have a > steam powered lineshaft* > *operated machine shop Cool! AGSEM in Vista, CA also has a line shaft setup, but they use a gas engine to turn it and only had blacksmiths working last time I saw it. There's a lathe in the corner, but I've never seen it run. -- Randall From cavanadd at frontier.com Wed Mar 2 18:23:03 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 17:23:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: <184601cbd93b$059ec460$10dc4d20$@rr.com> References: <4D6EDE1A.60400@hornesystemstx.com> <184601cbd93b$059ec460$10dc4d20$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4D6EED77.6090901@frontier.com> Some people are still using them. If you go to owwm.com (Old WoodWorking Machines), several of the people on the old woodworking machines forum have lineshafts set up in their shops to run their vintage 19th and early 20th century equipment. Randall wrote: >> Line shaft. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From jibjib at att.net Wed Mar 2 20:23:09 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:23:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: <4D6D305F.90307@teleport.com> References: <474385092.226030.1298989085124.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><0LHE005MS1QV1K20@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4D6D305F.90307@teleport.com> Message-ID: I know of three guys who lost their fathers in gutter cleaning accidents, so I hire that one out. I'll do just about anything else. . . . When I do hire a contractor, I require proof of license and insurance before you have a signed contract. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard George Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:44 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. And the fun part is when he falls off, breaks his back, and you find out he didn't have insurance when the papers are served to you =8-0 On 3/1/2011 8:56 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Right. Not in my neighborhood. And often (not always) the "pro" you > actually get doing the dangerous work is some poor guy with no more > training or skill than you have. His risk aversion is just overcome > by his desire for food and shelter. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 10:45 AM 3/1/2011, Mark Andy wrote: >> Howdy, >> >> On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Tom & Marge FitzGibbon wrote: >>> The $30 it costs me to have someone clean my gutters is cheap >>> compared to my insurance deductible or the cost of a wheel chair (or >>> casket). >> >> It only costs $30 to get someone to clean out your gutters? >> >> Hell, I need to look into hiring a pro to do it then! And not >> because its dangerous, either. :-) > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rkg at teleport.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Thu Mar 3 07:25:40 2011 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:25:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01cbd9ae$e0e0b1f0$a2a215d0$@cablespeed.com> Yes, a line shaft system.....a wonderful thing to see and hear in motion. It made a building "alive".... From jszwed at energykinetics.com Thu Mar 3 08:15:49 2011 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 10:15:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question Message-ID: <3673C98EADA24130B7C918D35F97AF04@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> My uncle, who has long since past, was a tool and die maker for GM. I remember him telling me that they would bump the belts from the lines shaft to the machine by hand to change machine speeds. They would just reach up and do it with out even looking. Joe Szwed From tputland at charter.net Thu Mar 3 08:29:22 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 7:29:22 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] historical machine shop question In-Reply-To: <3673C98EADA24130B7C918D35F97AF04@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Message-ID: <20110303102922.QZOVE.11378446.root@mp08> Now days, wouldn't OSHA just have a field day with that?!?! -- ---- Joe Szwed wrote: ============= My uncle, who has long since past, was a tool and die maker for GM. I remember him telling me that they would bump the belts from the lines shaft to the machine by hand to change machine speeds. They would just reach up and do it with out even looking. Joe Szwed _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From watsonm05 at comcast.net Fri Mar 4 17:16:30 2011 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:16:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters Message-ID: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> Hi All, Well I agree with most of the comments about not leaving everything to the "Professionals" since like others (and Mike Holmes) I too have seen the unbelievably bad results of supposedly professional morons. However, I too was worried about gutter cleaning even though my house is a single story. Because of that when I had to replace the rotted facia board on the back of my house I used a product that's available in Richmond, VA. (I don't know if it's available anywhere else). I have FlipClean gutters: http://www.flipcleanguttersystems.com/index.html. Unfortunately I could only afford the FlipClean gutters on the back of my house and I really miss them on the front of the house. So I'm half safe when I clean my gutters. The info on the website touts how easy it is to clean these gutters. It really is as easy as they claim. There are a few downsides. One is that the debris dumps in a straight line along the ground. However, so far at least, cleaning up the stuff on the ground is safer than climbing the ladder to clean the gutter ;-) Another downside is that one of the sections was not installed with a correct tilt and tends to collect water. If I go too long between cleanings I just grab the gutter with the pole from as far away as I can and jump back so the nasty water doesn't splash on me. I probably should have bitched to the installer but I didn't for some probably stupid reason. And the last thing I don't like really doesn't have anything to do with the FlipClean gutters but with my roof. The valleys in the back of the house collect pine needles at an incredible rate mostly because of the combination of the roof's fairly shallow pitch and the vigorousness of the &*&*^$ pine tree shedding needles in the fall. From what I understand the FlipClean system (the hinges) are (or were) a patented product. As I recall the guy running the company was the son of the inventor and he refused to sell me the hinges so I could install them on the front and the garage myself. He claimed "insurance liability" was the reason but I think he just wanted to maximize his profit. I've seen other different products on the Internet that you can buy as a kit but it still was too expensive for my budget. One link I have from Tilt N Clean (from 2003) is dead. I'm skeptical about the many other gutter caps/covers/etc. since my house is surrounded by pine trees and those %^&^&$# needles would probably overwhelm any such system. I've looked on-line at many other products and from what I saw not a one of them address pine needles. I've also heard (admittedly anecdotal) stories about gutters protected by one brand needing periodic cleaning because of mold build up, and also the installing company needing to be involved when the roof is reshingled. Well that's enough blathering for now . . . Mark Watson 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' long term resto project 1965 Ford Falcon - I just gotta get her back on the road! various transportation pods, garage missing the back gutter because the original one was steel(!!!) and rusted out and the front one is just about to completely fail due to rust! -----Original Message----- From: Jack Brooks Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 10:23 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. I know of three guys who lost their fathers in gutter cleaning accidents, so I hire that one out. I'll do just about anything else. . . . When I do hire a contractor, I require proof of license and insurance before you have a signed contract. Jack From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Mar 4 19:48:19 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 18:48:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> Message-ID: <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> That looks really interesting. I have a rambler and we're in the woods of the Pacific Northwest. The gutters are always full of crap, and none of the so called gutter guards actually work. These things might do the job. No indication that they are available up here, though. Mark Watson wrote: > I have FlipClean > gutters: http://www.flipcleanguttersystems.com/index.html. From pethier at comcast.net Fri Mar 4 20:06:16 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 03:06:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> Message-ID: <1793927404.1974692.1299294376817.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I clean my gutters from the ground. I blow them out with my electric leaf blower. Put an extension on with some PVC pipe. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 4 20:21:33 2011 From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:21:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> Message-ID: <45025.52467.qm@web82407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How does it fit around the downspout tube? Randy Mark Watson wrote: > I have FlipClean > gutters: http://www.flipcleanguttersystems.com/index.html. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mistertwo at sbcglobal.net From jibjib at att.net Fri Mar 4 22:28:33 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 21:28:33 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> Message-ID: David, A friend of mine installed some foam inserts from Costco. He is on his third season and no issues with pine/spruce needles here in the great Seattle area. I'm installing them next year when they go on sale at about $40/32 linear feet. GutterStuffR Self-installed Gutter Filter Seals Out Leaves While Allowing Large Volumes Of Water To Flow 32 Linear Feet Item # 450980 http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11490677&search=gutter&Mo=1 &cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S& N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:B C&Ne=4000000&D=gutter&Ntt=gutter&No=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav= &s=1 Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David C. Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 6:48 PM To: Mark Watson Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters That looks really interesting. I have a rambler and we're in the woods of the Pacific Northwest. The gutters are always full of crap, and none of the so called gutter guards actually work. These things might do the job. No indication that they are available up here, though. Mark Watson wrote: > I have FlipClean > gutters: http://www.flipcleanguttersystems.com/index.html. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From tputland at charter.net Sat Mar 5 07:23:42 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 6:23:42 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration Message-ID: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> Last summer, in an antique store, I found a bar style (not sure if this is the correct name or not???) torque wrench for $4.50. It is solid and seems to work correctly. I am wondering if and where I might be able to get it checked and calibrated. Any thoughts? Thanks Tim Dairyland Datsuns From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Mar 5 08:06:05 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 10:06:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> Message-ID: The term I use is 'beam style'. Essentially it cannot go out of 'calibration' (as long as it was well made originally- does the wrench have any brand name markings?). I use my 25 year old Craftsman beam style torque wrench to check my 'clicker' (which can loose calibration if springs stretch or pawls wear). I put a 5/8" six point socket on each and connect the two sockets with a 2" long 5/8" nut. (and now I can't think of the name for this type of long nut...!) There are places that can calibrate torque wrenches. A machine shop would likely know where to get it done. I've heard that some Snap-On dealers can do. I don't know how much they charge however. Probably more than a Craftsman beam style torque wrench, two sockets and a long nut... Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim" To: "Shop15Talk" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:23 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration > Last summer, in an antique store, I found a bar style (not sure if this is > the correct name or not???) torque wrench for $4.50. It is solid and seems > to work correctly. > > I am wondering if and where I might be able to get it checked and > calibrated. From bspidell at comcast.net Sat Mar 5 08:13:56 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 07:13:56 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> Message-ID: <4D725334.9020306@comcast.net> Check your local yellow pages under 'scientific,' 'laboratories,' 'calibration,' etc. Also, if you have a general aviation airport nearby call the Fixed Base Operator ('FBO') or flight school. Torque wrenches used on aircraft have to be calibrated regularly--once a year, I think--and an Airframe & Powerplant ('A&P') mechanic would know where to get it done. Last I checked it cost about $25. Bob On 3/5/2011 6:23 AM, Tim wrote: > Last summer, in an antique store, I found a bar style (not sure if this is the correct name or not???) torque wrench for $4.50. It is solid and seems to work correctly. > > I am wondering if and where I might be able to get it checked and calibrated. > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks > > Tim > Dairyland Datsuns > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 08:39:25 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 10:39:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <4D725334.9020306@comcast.net> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> <4D725334.9020306@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Bob Spidell wrote: > Check your local yellow pages under 'scientific,' 'laboratories,' > 'calibration,' etc. > > Also, if you have a general aviation airport nearby call the Fixed Base > Operator ('FBO') or flight school. B Torque wrenches used on aircraft have to > be calibrated regularly--once a year, I think--and an Airframe & Powerplant > ('A&P') mechanic would know where to get it done. > > Last I checked it cost about $25. > You can't calibrate, nor even certify accuracy of, a beam style torque wrench. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Mar 5 09:22:41 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 11:22:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16><4D725334.9020306@comcast.net> Message-ID: <68BF3553BDDB4DA1BCF764F66BBA0A09@EricJRussellPC> I believe one can certify accuracy of a beam style torque wrench. At least for any particular amount (or more useful - range) of torque. True, there isn't really any adjustment - except to make sure the pointer is not bent. Google 'DIY torque wrench calibration' for easy ways to verify accuracy of the wrench. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" > You can't calibrate, nor even certify accuracy of, a beam style torque > wrench. From bspidell at comcast.net Sat Mar 5 10:32:47 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:32:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1538081653.1637193.1299346367519.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> You speak with a great deal of certainly, so I won't dispute that, but the calibration techniques I'm familiar with measure the wrench's indicated torque against a calibrated strain gauge (which itself must be calibrated, etc.). I don't see why you couldn't at least get a calibration card for a beam-style wrench; e.g. the wrench indicates 50lb-ft, and the strain gauge measures 52, so you know your wrench reads a bit low in the 50lb-ft range. To me, 'calibration' means comparing to a known quantity. Adjustment means bring them into agreement. Bob -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Bob Spidell wrote: > Check your local yellow pages under 'scientific,' 'laboratories,' > 'calibration,' etc. > > Also, if you have a general aviation airport nearby call the Fixed Base > Operator ('FBO') or flight school. Torque wrenches used on aircraft have to > be calibrated regularly--once a year, I think--and an Airframe & Powerplant > ('A&P') mechanic would know where to get it done. > > Last I checked it cost about $25. > You can't calibrate, nor even certify accuracy of, a beam style torque wrench. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From parkanzky at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 10:53:51 2011 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 12:53:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <1538081653.1637193.1299346367519.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1538081653.1637193.1299346367519.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: In my world (Regulated pharmaceutical manufacturing), Calibration is the process of making adjustments to bring something into tolerance. Verification is what you are doing to see whether or not the instrument is within tolerance. -Paul On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Bob Spidell wrote: > You speak with a great deal of certainly, so I won't dispute that, but the calibration techniques I'm familiar with measure the wrench's indicated torque against a calibrated strain gauge (which itself must be calibrated, etc.). I don't see why you couldn't at least get a calibration card for a beam-style wrench; e.g. the wrench indicates 50lb-ft, and the strain gauge measures 52, so you know your wrench reads a bit low in the 50lb-ft range. > > To me, 'calibration' means comparing to a known quantity. Adjustment means bring them into agreement. > > > Bob > > -------------------------------- > Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA > > > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Bob Spidell wrote: >> Check your local yellow pages under 'scientific,' 'laboratories,' >> 'calibration,' etc. >> >> Also, if you have a general aviation airport nearby call the Fixed Base >> Operator ('FBO') or flight school. Torque wrenches used on aircraft have to >> be calibrated regularly--once a year, I think--and an Airframe & Powerplant >> ('A&P') mechanic would know where to get it done. >> >> Last I checked it cost about $25. >> > > You can't calibrate, nor even certify accuracy of, a beam style torque wrench. > > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com From bspidell at comcast.net Sat Mar 5 13:11:48 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 20:11:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <1082708323.1643538.1299355284214.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <438120491.1643899.1299355908293.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Wikipedia has a pretty good entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibration >From the wiki: " Calibration is a comparison between measurements b one of known magnitude or correctness made or set with one device and another measurement made in as similar a way as possible with a second device. Also: "In general use, calibration is often regarded as including the process of adjusting the output or indication on a measurement instrument to agree with value of the applied standard, within a specified accuracy. " and "For the vast majority of calibrations, the calibration process is actually the comparison of an unknown to a known and recording the results." Seems like the terms get used interchangeably, but I'll stand by my statement that calibration is the comparison process, and adjustment is, well, adjusting the device. I believe there are entities that can calibrate, but are not permitted to make adjustments to the devices under test. Bob -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA on In my world (Regulated pharmaceutical manufacturing), Calibration is the process of making adjustments to bring something into tolerance. Verification is what you are doing to see whether or not the instrument is within tolerance. -Paul On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Bob Spidell wrote: > You speak with a great deal of certainly, so I won't dispute that, but the calibration techniques I'm familiar with measure the wrench's indicated torque against a calibrated strain gauge (which itself must be calibrated, etc.). I don't see why you couldn't at least get a calibration card for a beam-style wrench; e.g. the wrench indicates 50lb-ft, and the strain gauge measures 52, so you know your wrench reads a bit low in the 50lb-ft range. > > To me, 'calibration' means comparing to a known quantity. Adjustment means bring them into agreement. > > > Bob From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sat Mar 5 14:58:59 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:58:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Help Identifying Kienzle Clock Message-ID: This is a long shot, but I am trying to identify a clock that came with a car I purchased. The clock is a Kienzle and it looks like it had a "W" logo on it that has been painted over. You can just see it in this photo: http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1663/img00160201103051532.jpg Here are a couple of other photos: http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5648/img00163201103051533.jpg http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5628/img00166201103051534.jpg http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3606/img00167201103051535.jpg Any ideas will be appreciated. Jim From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com Sat Mar 5 15:33:56 2011 From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:33:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Help Identifying Kienzle Clock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20110305173116.03b08840@pop.nycap.rr.com> A lot of guesses W for Wolfsburg?? made for English speaking market doesn't look like Porsche or VW maybe Borgward? Skip At 04:58 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote: >This is a long shot, but I am trying to identify a clock that came with a car >I purchased. The clock is a Kienzle and it looks like it had a "W" logo on it >that has been painted over. You can just see it in this photo: > >http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1663/img00160201103051532.jpg > >Here are a couple of other photos: > >http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5648/img00163201103051533.jpg >http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5628/img00166201103051534.jpg >http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3606/img00167201103051535.jpg > >Any ideas will be appreciated. > >Jim >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/salbrigh at nycap.rr.com Nothing is as it appears Skip Albright Glenmont NY salbrigh at nycap.rr.com http://www.volvoskip.com/ From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Mar 6 15:59:17 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:59:17 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> Message-ID: <4D7411C5.5050104@tx.rr.com> Lots of discussion on these so far... If the thing was manufactured correctly and is undamaged then it will work now exactly as well as it did when originally manufactured. After all, PL^3/3EI is the same now as it has ever been. I've used these things before, and they work well when used properly, but they can be a little hard to read. IOW when you have the tool on a fastener such as a head bolt and you are applying 80-ft-lbs or so, you usually aren't in a position to have your eyes conveniently above the scale ready to read it. And as has been mentioned before the pointer (and scale) are subject to damage moreso than the remainder of the tool. > Last summer, in an antique store, I found a bar style (not sure if this is the correct name or not???) torque wrench for $4.50. It is solid and seems to work correctly. > > I am wondering if and where I might be able to get it checked and calibrated. > > Any thoughts? From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Mar 6 17:29:00 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 16:29:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <4D7411C5.5050104@tx.rr.com> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> <4D7411C5.5050104@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <239701cbdc5e$a7e4fe30$0301a8c0@randall> > After > all, PL^3/3EI is the same now as it has ever been. Only if E is a constant. I suppose changes in E would come under the category of either not manufactured properly or damaged; and yet the only way to tell may be to check the calibration. -- Randall From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Mar 6 18:11:47 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 19:11:47 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <239701cbdc5e$a7e4fe30$0301a8c0@randall> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16> <4D7411C5.5050104@tx.rr.com> <239701cbdc5e$a7e4fe30$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4D7430D3.70906@tx.rr.com> E is a function of the metallurgy. E for steel and steel alloys is in a fairly narrow range. I is a function of the shape of the "beam", and is actually the property that could change, through wear, corrosion, damage, etc. >> After >> all, PL^3/3EI is the same now as it has ever been. > Only if E is a constant. I suppose changes in E would come under the > category of either not manufactured properly or damaged; and yet the only > way to tell may be to check the calibration. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Mar 6 18:58:19 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 17:58:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <4D7430D3.70906@tx.rr.com> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16><4D7411C5.5050104@tx.rr.com> <239701cbdc5e$a7e4fe30$0301a8c0@randall> <4D7430D3.70906@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <23b001cbdc6b$224fd620$0301a8c0@randall> > E for steel and steel > alloys is in a > fairly narrow range. Ok, my mistake. I thought work hardening, etc. would change the Young's modulus slightly, but I guess not. I wonder then, how it is that old bourdon-tube gauges typically change scale as well as zero. -- Randall From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Mar 6 20:07:27 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 21:07:27 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] torque wrench calilbration In-Reply-To: <23b001cbdc6b$224fd620$0301a8c0@randall> References: <20110305092342.S7WCZ.4560638.root@mp16><4D7411C5.5050104@tx.rr.com> <239701cbdc5e$a7e4fe30$0301a8c0@randall> <4D7430D3.70906@tx.rr.com> <23b001cbdc6b$224fd620$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4D744BEF.2080309@tx.rr.com> Work hardening requires a lot of deformation to occur, IOW if you bent the beam into a pretzel and then straightened it back out again, so I think that would be somewhat unlikely. What I did wonder about and I'm somewhat unsure about would be heat treatment. The tool could be heated to varying degrees during its life and that could change its level of heat treatment without leaving much evidence of what had happened. (I looked this up on wikipedia and they said that E isn't changed by heat treating.) I recall seeing E listed as 30,000,000 psi for steel, but in our industry it is commonly used as 29,000,000 psi. (I thought I had read somewhere that steel alloys could vary in stiffness by 6 or 8 % from max. to min., but I couldn't find it again with a little bit of searching.) >> E for steel and steel >> alloys is in a >> fairly narrow range. > Ok, my mistake. I thought work hardening, etc. would change the Young's > modulus slightly, but I guess not. I wonder then, how it is that old > bourdon-tube gauges typically change scale as well as zero. From brabel at comcast.net Mon Mar 7 11:29:17 2011 From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 10:29:17 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Help Identifying Kienzle Clock In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20110305173116.03b08840@pop.nycap.rr.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20110305173116.03b08840@pop.nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <8EA2550C-2D07-499D-A955-E78903B752C0@comcast.net> The only other German connections I can come up with are Wanderer (one of the four circles of Auto Union), or the East German Wartburg, which is more contemporary. Wanderer's logo was a wider letter W than the example you show, but Wartburg used a narrow W, where the center point was crossed like an X, which is suggested by your painted-over example. - Bill Rabel Anacortes > > At 04:58 PM 3/5/2011, Jim wrote: >> This is a long shot, but I am trying to identify a clock that came with a car >> I purchased. The clock is a Kienzle and it looks like it had a "W" logo on it >> that has been painted over. You can just see it in this photo: >> >> http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1663/img00160201103051532.jpg >> >> Here are a couple of other photos: >> >> http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5648/img00163201103051533.jpg >> http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5628/img00166201103051534.jpg >> http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3606/img00167201103051535.jpg >> >> Any ideas will be appreciated. From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Mon Mar 7 14:28:19 2011 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 21:28:19 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Help Identifying Kienzle Clock In-Reply-To: <8EA2550C-2D07-499D-A955-E78903B752C0@comcast.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20110305173116.03b08840@pop.nycap.rr.com> <8EA2550C-2D07-499D-A955-E78903B752C0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D754DF3.9050404@talktalk.net> This looks like the kind of clock that were used in early '70's Volvos (for example 140 series). Could the scrubbing be obliterating the word 'VOLVO'? Neil On 07/03/2011 18:29, Bill Rabel wrote: > The only other German connections I can come up with are Wanderer (one of the > four circles of Auto Union), or the East German Wartburg, which is more > contemporary. Wanderer's logo was a wider letter W than the example you show, > but Wartburg used a narrow W, where the center point was crossed like an X, > which is suggested by your painted-over example. > > - Bill Rabel > Anacortes > >> At 04:58 PM 3/5/2011, Jim wrote: >>> This is a long shot, but I am trying to identify a clock that came with a > car >>> I purchased. The clock is a Kienzle and it looks like it had a "W" logo on > it >>> that has been painted over. You can just see it in this photo: >>> >>> http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1663/img00160201103051532.jpg >>> >>> Here are a couple of other photos: >>> >>> http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5648/img00163201103051533.jpg >>> http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5628/img00166201103051534.jpg >>> http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3606/img00167201103051535.jpg >>> >>> Any ideas will be appreciated. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From jandkstone99 at msn.com Mon Mar 7 16:39:26 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:39:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Help Identifying Kienzle Clock In-Reply-To: <4D754DF3.9050404@talktalk.net> References: , <6.2.3.4.2.20110305173116.03b08840@pop.nycap.rr.com>, <8EA2550C-2D07-499D-A955-E78903B752C0@comcast.net>, <4D754DF3.9050404@talktalk.net> Message-ID: Sorry for not updating the group. Someone on the list solved the mystery for me, but I didn't realize that his reply was just to me, or that my "Reply to All" message thus only went to him. It is a Saab clock from the late 60's. I would never have pegged that "W" as a Saab logo, but you can see the logo here; it is the second one down: http://www.saabhistory.com/2008/07/17/the-evolution-of-the-saab-saab-scania-s aab-logo/ It is hard to believe the thin paint lines cover up the SAAB letters, but you can even see 'splotches' in the paint where the jet's engines would have been. Mystery solved! Thanks for the effort. Cheers, Jim > Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:28:19 +0000 > From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Help Identifying Kienzle Clock > > This looks like the kind of clock that were used in early '70's Volvos > (for example 140 series). Could the scrubbing be obliterating the word > 'VOLVO'? > Neil > > On 07/03/2011 18:29, Bill Rabel wrote: > > The only other German connections I can come up with are Wanderer (one of the > > four circles of Auto Union), or the East German Wartburg, which is more > > contemporary. Wanderer's logo was a wider letter W than the example you show, > > but Wartburg used a narrow W, where the center point was crossed like an X, > > which is suggested by your painted-over example. > > > > - Bill Rabel > > Anacortes > > > >> At 04:58 PM 3/5/2011, Jim wrote: > >>> This is a long shot, but I am trying to identify a clock that came with a > > car > >>> I purchased. The clock is a Kienzle and it looks like it had a "W" logo on > > it > >>> that has been painted over. You can just see it in this photo: > >>> > >>> http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1663/img00160201103051532.jpg > >>> > >>> Here are a couple of other photos: > >>> > >>> http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5648/img00163201103051533.jpg > >>> http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5628/img00166201103051534.jpg > >>> http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3606/img00167201103051535.jpg > >>> > >>> Any ideas will be appreciated. > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From peterwmurray at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 08:42:16 2011 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:42:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> Message-ID: I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in my beds... http://www.rainhandler.com/ They are working very well at a friend's house. Installation is pretty simple. -Peter On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > David, > > A friend of mine installed some foam inserts from Costco. He is on his > third season and no issues with pine/spruce needles here in the great > Seattle area. I'm installing them next year when they go on sale at about > $40/32 linear feet. > > GutterStuffR > Self-installed Gutter Filter > Seals Out Leaves While Allowing Large Volumes Of Water To Flow > 32 Linear Feet > Item # 450980 > > http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11490677&search=gutter&Mo=1 > &cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S& > N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:B > C&Ne=4000000&D=gutter&Ntt=gutter&No=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav= > &s=1 > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David C. > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 6:48 PM > To: Mark Watson > Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters > > That looks really interesting. I have a rambler and we're in the woods > of the Pacific Northwest. The gutters are always full of crap, and none > of the so called gutter guards actually work. These things might do the > job. No indication that they are available up here, though. > > > Mark Watson wrote: >> I have FlipClean >> gutters: http://www.flipcleanguttersystems.com/index.html. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com From strovato at optonline.net Tue Mar 8 09:05:28 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 11:05:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> Message-ID: <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Where do you live? Here in New York, we just had a very bad time with ice dams. Those foam inserts look like they would turn into solid blocks of ice if used here. The rainhandler perhaps would be OK in some cases, but spraying the water off the roof and onto the driveway will just be an ice nightmare. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 10:42 AM 3/8/2011, Peter Murray wrote: >I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water >to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in >my beds... > >http://www.rainhandler.com/ From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 09:11:43 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 11:11:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Where do you live? B Here in New York, we just had a very bad time with ice > dams. B Those foam inserts look like they would turn into solid blocks of ice > if used here. B The rainhandler perhaps would be OK in some cases, but > spraying the water off the roof and onto the driveway will just be an ice > nightmare. That was exactly my thought. (We had ice dams on the wood shed. It's not heated, insulated, nor even closed: open on one side, and a foot of air between the roof and the back (low) side. I was pretty amazed by that. Just the right conditions of cold and sun, I guess.) > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 10:42 AM 3/8/2011, Peter Murray wrote: >> >> I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water >> to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in >> my beds... >> >> http://www.rainhandler.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From peterwmurray at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 09:26:04 2011 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 11:26:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: I live in Northern Virginia, so ice and ice dams can be an issue - though not nearly to the extent that you probably experience it (depending on where you live in New York). I suppose if the surface temperature were at or below freezing, having rain spray onto the ground would lead to ice, and that would indeed be sub-optimal. I don't have any driveway or sidewalk space that would receive the spray - though if the rain were coming in such velocity to create good spray, I would expect that ice would be less of an issue. I looked into the iRobot Looj before going with the gutter covers I'm about to remove, and while it sounds cool, it just is a) too expensive and b) less than perfectly reliable (see point a). -Peter On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Where do you live? Here in New York, we just had a very bad time with ice > dams. Those foam inserts look like they would turn into solid blocks of ice > if used here. The rainhandler perhaps would be OK in some cases, but > spraying the water off the roof and onto the driveway will just be an ice > nightmare. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 10:42 AM 3/8/2011, Peter Murray wrote: >> >> I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water >> to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in >> my beds... >> >> http://www.rainhandler.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 09:31:04 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 11:31:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4D7659C8.6080607@gmail.com> I didn't think too much about three-storey gutters in my original post. Yeah, here in Florida, it's uncommon to get even many two-storey houses. An extension ladder and about an hour will take care of it. But yeah, if I had a three-storey house and someone would clean the gutters for $50, I'd pay it. Hell, I'd pay $50 for someone to clean mine now. The other uniquely-Floridian issue we have is a surplus of unskilled 'contractors', all wanting to get rich for menial labor. Getting a 1/4 acre lot cut here is $100/visit. Scott From pj_thomas at comcast.net Tue Mar 8 10:08:52 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 12:08:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4D7662A4.6070403@comcast.net> On 3/8/2011 10:42 AM, Peter Murray wrote: > I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water > to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in > my beds... > > http://www.rainhandler.com/ > > They are working very well at a friend's house. Installation is pretty > simple. > > -Peter These are designed to spray the water around the foundation in a wide pattern rather then pour in a sheet. The problem I see is the water is still falling around the foundation and may cause water problems in the basement. One function of a gutter is to carry water away from the foundation. Just guessing, but this would probably be worse than no gutters at all. By spraying the water around the foundation I'd imagine water has more time to soak into the ground. -Peter > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: >> David, >> >> A friend of mine installed some foam inserts from Costco. He is on his >> third season and no issues with pine/spruce needles here in the great >> Seattle area. I'm installing them next year when they go on sale at about >> $40/32 linear feet. >> >> GutterStuffR >> Self-installed Gutter Filter >> Seals Out Leaves While Allowing Large Volumes Of Water To Flow >> 32 Linear Feet >> Item # 450980 >> >> > http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11490677&search=gutter&Mo=1 > &cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S& > N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:B > C&Ne=4000000&D=gutter&Ntt=gutter&No=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav= >> &s=1 >> >> Jack >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net >> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David C. >> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 6:48 PM >> To: Mark Watson >> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press<-- Gutters >> >> That looks really interesting. I have a rambler and we're in the woods >> of the Pacific Northwest. The gutters are always full of crap, and none >> of the so called gutter guards actually work. These things might do the >> job. No indication that they are available up here, though. >> >> >> Mark Watson wrote: >>> I have FlipClean >>> gutters: http://www.flipcleanguttersystems.com/index.html. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Tue Mar 8 10:24:09 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110308172409.7KPBQ.37327.root@cdptpa-web09-z02> I watched that video and that isn't our definition of rain. When we have rain, it's more like a tidal wave. It comes off of our roof in a 2" thick layer and shoots out several feet. It would miss those little louvers entirely. The reason we would want gutters at our house is to take the water completely away from the edge of the house. Without louvers it builds up a 6" deep puddle right at the edge of the house, with gutters and downspouts you can direct that water away from the house. My house originally had gutters all around it. The edge of the roof is very complicated with lots of corners and steps in and out. The gutters that we had only served to trap water and rot the fascia so I took them all off. At one location the gutters had rotted the edge of the wall and allowed water to shoot into the house and flood our kitchen and dining room. I rebuilt the wall and left the gutters off. There are a couple of areas that we need to have gutters in order to take the water away from the house, but I can't afford to put them back on right now. As soon as I can afford it that is one of the things on my list of home improvements. > I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water > to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in > my beds... > > http://www.rainhandler.com/ From eric at megageek.com Tue Mar 8 10:46:40 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:46:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Rock salt alternatives Message-ID: OK, trying to 'plan ahead' for next year, I wanted to buy up a bunch of rock salt (or equivalent) for next winter now that it will be going on sale. What I wanted to know, does anyone know which kind of this type of product does the least damage to the spreading vehicle? Let me explain. It seems that there are about 40 different type of products that do what rock salt does. Many have reasons as to why they are the 'best." What I am most concerned with (besides actually melting ice) is which is the least corrosive to the vehicles. I don't' care about 'environmentally sensitivity' as I don't spread that much of it around. Does anyone know of such a product. Oh, if it was safe for pets feet, that would be a huge plus. TIA. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Tue Mar 8 10:47:45 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:47:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 3PT Hitch rolo tillers Message-ID: I'm about to purchase one of these beast for my farm. Anyone have any experience? Pros / cons? Recommendations? Thanks. (I have a 45 HP tractor.) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Mar 8 11:08:19 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:08:19 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> Message-ID: <003601cbddbb$cecfaa50$6c6efef0$@ameritech.net> Wish I'd known some years ago that someone would eventually want these. I had boxes of that crap left from my Dad - brand new. They eventually went into recycling. He'd just installed them in one spot, and even above concrete patio blocks I didn't note much improvement on a small roof. On anything serious they'd have been useless here in the Chicago area. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Peter Murray Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in my beds... http://www.rainhandler.com/ They are working very well at a friend's house. Installation is pretty simple. -Peter From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Tue Mar 8 11:48:12 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:48:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Rock salt alternatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110308184812.I8W2I.287288.root@cdptpa-web15-z01> Our local area uses magnesium cloride. I don't know how it compares to common salt but they think it has advantages. > OK, trying to 'plan ahead' for next year, I wanted to buy up a bunch of > rock salt (or equivalent) for next winter now that it will be going on > sale. > > What I wanted to know, does anyone know which kind of this type of product > does the least damage to the spreading vehicle? > > Let me explain. It seems that there are about 40 different type of > products that do what rock salt does. Many have reasons as to why they > are the 'best." > > What I am most concerned with (besides actually melting ice) is which is > the least corrosive to the vehicles. I don't' care about 'environmentally > sensitivity' as I don't spread that much > of it around. From eltonclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 12:16:32 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:16:32 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: 3PT Hitch rolo tillers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark Date: Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 3PT Hitch rolo tillers To: eric at megageek.com *I'm a few years "out of the loop" but my when last* *in the biz, I thought BEFCO tillers were the best value but Kubotas were the best tillers.* ** *You need a really low first gear, under 1 MPH* ** *Tillers are not PLOWS, they are for "tillable" soil* ** *"Tillable" means you can stick a sharpshooter spade in the ground with one hand.* ** *Yes, there may be exceptions* ** *Tony in Texas* *an ol' plow peddler* On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 11:47 AM, wrote: > I'm about to purchase one of these beast for my farm. Anyone have any > experience? Pros / cons? Recommendations? > > Thanks. (I have a 45 HP tractor.) > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 12:53:21 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 14:53:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Rock salt alternatives In-Reply-To: <20110308184812.I8W2I.287288.root@cdptpa-web15-z01> References: <20110308184812.I8W2I.287288.root@cdptpa-web15-z01> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, wrote: > Our local area uses magnesium cloride. B I don't know how it compares to common salt but they think it has advantages. > It's somewhat less corrosive. Big advantage is that it's usually put down as a liquid, before it snows, which works better, and requires less of it. It's quite a bit more expensive than plain salt. Calcium chloride is the other common chloride used for deicing. It's less toxic to most plants, but it's still corrosive. It's also expensive. Both work at lower temps than salt, calcium chloride at lower temps than MgCl2. CMA (calcium magnesium acetate) is probably the least corrosive (and certainly the safest for animals.), but it's not terribly common, and isn't effective below about 20F. Many of the bagged goods sold for consumer use are mixtures of chemicals, usually salt and something else. Salt's cheap. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From nick at landform.co.uk Tue Mar 8 14:00:36 2011 From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:00:36 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] 3PT Hitch rolo tillers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7698F4.6020805@landform.co.uk> On 08/03/2011 17:47, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I'm about to purchase one of these beast for my farm. Anyone have any > experience? Pros / cons? Recommendations? > > Thanks. (I have a 45 HP tractor.) > These people make good machines: http://www.kuhnnorthamerica.com/us/range/tillage-tools/power-tillers.html Not the cheapest but quality pays for itself quickly once you start doing much rotavating. 50 or 60 inch machine should be right for your tractor. Nick Brearley From jibjib at att.net Tue Mar 8 19:05:30 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 18:05:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Gutters In-Reply-To: <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson><4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <9D800309E20843B79849109239C3A363@EntCent> Steve, Seattle. Yeah, the foam inserts could freeze solid, but I'm not sure it would cause ice dams any worse than an unprotected gutter filling with snow and/or ice. Fortunately, there are not any real concerns about ice dams here, like I had back in the NY/NJ area. Our problem is spruce needles. Bazzillions of short, thin, pesky needles that create dams in the gutters. I could clean or pay to clean the gutters several times a year and one side of the house is 3 stories, 2 sides are 2-3 stories and the other is 2 stories. For the Pacific Northwet , the foams are a good solution. We do not get much snow and ice, but lots of "not particularly heavy" rain, at least compared to an eastern Thunderstorm. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Trovato Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 8:05 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters Where do you live? Here in New York, we just had a very bad time with ice dams. Those foam inserts look like they would turn into solid blocks of ice if used here. The rainhandler perhaps would be OK in some cases, but spraying the water off the roof and onto the driveway will just be an ice nightmare. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 10:42 AM 3/8/2011, Peter Murray wrote: >I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water >to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in >my beds... > >http://www.rainhandler.com/ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Mar 8 19:13:53 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:13:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Gutters In-Reply-To: <9D800309E20843B79849109239C3A363@EntCent> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson><4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> <0LHQ002X0Y1FIW40@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <9D800309E20843B79849109239C3A363@EntCent> Message-ID: <4D76E261.5050207@xxiii.com> >> I am looking at putting this on my house, where I just want the water >> to exit the roof without running down the walls or creating valleys in >> my beds... >> http://www.rainhandler.com/ Consumer Reports did a review of gutter guards last fall. I do NOT take their opinion as gospel, but they're something to consider. If anyone wants a copy, ask and I can send one off-list. -Wayne From cavanadd at frontier.com Tue Mar 8 19:45:32 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:45:32 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: 3PT Hitch rolo tillers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D76E9CC.6090100@frontier.com> Yeah, pretty much what Tony said. I have a couple of tractors, an old gray market early 80s vintage Mitsubishi 16 (or so) hp, and a newish New Holland TC 30 30 HP. Both have manual gear boxes. The Mitsu has two gear ranges, and the N.H. has three. I have an Italian made tiller I bought from a sort of farm supply closeout place about 12 or 15 years ago. I think it's about a meter wide. My little Mitsubishi doesn't have any trouble running the tiller, but I have to run it in low/low to be effective. Sometimes I can run it in low/2nd on the second pass if the soil is dry enough. They don't like gumbo clay, big rocks, or being driven over a tarp (don't ask). The little tractor does all I need to do in terms of rototilling, but If I was going to do tractor work for side jobs, I would probably get a 60 or 72" to run behind the New Holland. Your tractor shouldn't have any trouble running one at least that big; your tractor guy can tell you how big you can go, but bigger tillers ain't cheap. Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark > Date: Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 1:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 3PT Hitch rolo tillers > To: eric at megageek.com > > > *I'm a few years "out of the loop" but my when last* > *in the biz, I thought BEFCO tillers were the best value but Kubotas were > the best tillers.* > ** > *You need a really low first gear, under 1 MPH* > ** > *Tillers are not PLOWS, they are for "tillable" soil* > ** > *"Tillable" means you can stick a sharpshooter spade in the ground with one > hand.* > ** > *Yes, there may be exceptions* > ** > *Tony in Texas* > *an ol' plow peddler* > > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 11:47 AM, wrote: > >> I'm about to purchase one of these beast for my farm. Anyone have any >> experience? Pros / cons? Recommendations? >> >> Thanks. (I have a 45 HP tractor.) >> >> Moose >> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational >> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph >> Waldo Emerson >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From jdrush at enter.net Tue Mar 8 23:04:53 2011 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 01:04:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <1793927404.1974692.1299294376817.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1793927404.1974692.1299294376817.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D771885.2010906@enter.net> Take a long piece of copper tube. Put a bend at one end and attache a powerful nozzle. Attach garden hose to other end and blast that crap out of your gutters from the ground. Profit! Jon On 3/4/2011 10:06 PM, pethier at comcast.net wrote: > I clean my gutters from the ground. I blow them out with my electric leaf blower. Put an extension on with some PVC pipe. From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Mar 9 11:33:29 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:33:29 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing Concrete Message-ID: I have a 6 year old concrete driveway that has never been sealed. While I rarely use salt for de-icing, I recently noticed quite a bit of deterioration in a couple of areas, mostly where we frequently park in the winter. I have never sealed concrete before and always thought it was unnecessary, but now I am not so sure. Can anyone give me any advice on this? Thanks. From jibjib at att.net Wed Mar 9 17:10:58 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 16:10:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <4D771885.2010906@enter.net> References: <1793927404.1974692.1299294376817.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4D771885.2010906@enter.net> Message-ID: <23896114C0434D19BC13E30C90F91E27@EntCent> Neither solution will work for wet needles; the mass of needles is just too dense. A nozzle will move them around, but not blast them clear of the gutter. Unfortunately, in the PNW, the needles in our gutters are wet eight months of the year. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rush Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:05 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters Take a long piece of copper tube. Put a bend at one end and attache a powerful nozzle. Attach garden hose to other end and blast that crap out of your gutters from the ground. Profit! Jon On 3/4/2011 10:06 PM, pethier at comcast.net wrote: > I clean my gutters from the ground. I blow them out with my electric leaf blower. Put an extension on with some PVC pipe. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From ericm at lne.com Wed Mar 9 17:25:04 2011 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 16:25:04 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <23896114C0434D19BC13E30C90F91E27@EntCent> References: <1793927404.1974692.1299294376817.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4D771885.2010906@enter.net> <23896114C0434D19BC13E30C90F91E27@EntCent> Message-ID: <20110310002504.GE15332@slack> On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 04:10:58PM -0800, Jack Brooks wrote: > Neither solution will work for wet needles; the mass of needles is just too > dense. A nozzle will move them around, but not blast them clear of the > gutter. Unfortunately, in the PNW, the needles in our gutters are wet eight > months of the year. We have needles too (fir and redwood) in the Santa Cruz mountains. I go out on the 1st floor roof and scoop the needles out. I try not to fall off the roof, and won't go out when its wet. I'm fortunate that the roof pitch isn't too steep and the roofing material can be walked on. If I had to use a ladder to do it it'd take all day instead of an hour or two and I'd probably have fallen off it by now. Eric From watsonm05 at comcast.net Wed Mar 9 17:27:27 2011 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 19:27:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <45025.52467.qm@web82407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1343D0B529F447DB82B27BDD4540F516@Dell2010Watson> <4D71A473.6070103@frontier.com> <45025.52467.qm@web82407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99967358FF554D3B8500FCDECC9E863B@Dell2010Watson> Hi Randy, They flair the opening of the downspout and use whatbs basically a piece of flat-stock (maybe a flat section from an old gutter) screwed to the facia and riveted to the downspout to hold the top end of the downspout in place. They install a standard gutter outlet in the gutter. When I flip the gutter the outlet just lifts out of the downspout. My gutters often have a clot of leaves + pine needles clogging the outlet and when I flip the gutters I either bang the gutter or poke at the clog until it falls out. As a bonus I can look right through the outlet from the ground and easily see that itbs clear. If you go to the Photo Gallery at the website you can see the outlet in picture 03. If you look really closely you might be able to see the strap thatbs holding the top end of the downspout in alignment. If youbre really curious I can try to dig up a digital camera and post some pictures. Hope this helps, Mark From: Rand E Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:21 PM To: Mark Watson Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters How does it fit around the downspout tube? Randy Mark Watson wrote: > I have FlipClean > gutters: http://www.flipcleanguttersystems.com/index.html. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 9 18:05:21 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:05:21 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press <-- Gutters In-Reply-To: <23896114C0434D19BC13E30C90F91E27@EntCent> References: <1793927404.1974692.1299294376817.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4D771885.2010906@enter.net> <23896114C0434D19BC13E30C90F91E27@EntCent> Message-ID: <03c901cbdebf$3b89d680$b29d8380$@rr.com> > Neither solution will work for wet needles; the mass of needles is just > too dense. I used to have a deck roof that was essentially a bunch of shallow gutters side by side feeding into one main gutter. My cleaning rod is made from 3/4" PVC and a "sidewalk sweeping" nozzle, with several elbows at the end so the nozzle points at an angle down the gutter. It had no problem with wet needles, even when buried in 2" of muck as well. Biggest problem was that the muck rained down on everything in the yard, including the operator. I eventually tore it out. -- Randall From mark at bradakis.com Thu Mar 10 21:43:25 2011 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:43:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Big Boys don't cry Message-ID: <4D79A86D.5040405@bradakis.com> autox /local/mailman/teamnet/bin 1251 :: su1 ./remove_members -n --fromall frede.thomas2 at verizon.net User `frede.thomas2 at verizon.net' removed from list: british-cars. User `frede.thomas2 at verizon.net' removed from list: shop-talk. User `frede.thomas2 at verizon.net' removed from list: spitfires. User `frede.thomas2 at verison.net' removed from list: triumphs. Godspeed, old friend. mjb. From jibjib at att.net Thu Mar 10 23:34:52 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:34:52 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Big Boys don't cry In-Reply-To: <4D79A86D.5040405@bradakis.com> References: <4D79A86D.5040405@bradakis.com> Message-ID: Fred, we will miss you buddy. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark J Bradakis Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 8:43 PM To: Triumphs; spitfires at autox.team.net; Shop-talk at autox.team.net; british-cars at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Big Boys don't cry autox /local/mailman/teamnet/bin 1251 :: su1 ./remove_members -n --fromall frede.thomas2 at verizon.net User `frede.thomas2 at verizon.net' removed from list: british-cars. User `frede.thomas2 at verizon.net' removed from list: shop-talk. User `frede.thomas2 at verizon.net' removed from list: spitfires. User `frede.thomas2 at verison.net' removed from list: triumphs. Godspeed, old friend. mjb. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From tputland at charter.net Mon Mar 14 05:43:01 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 5:43:01 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV Message-ID: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Time to get rid of Charter (SUCKS) TV. I am looking for feedback on Dish Network vs Direct TV. Who has/had what and what are your impressions. Any one had/have both? I have a spot for the dish on my house that is protected from the elements pretty well so I don't think I will have to worry about heavy rain or snow affecting the dish surface as much. thanks Tim Dairyland Datsuns From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Mar 14 07:43:50 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:43:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: <69C487EF03DE4E219ADE14AD5D8EA05E@EricJRussellPC> We've had both. IME they are about the same. If we get a really bad thunderstorm we might lose the signal for the duration of the bad weather. We had Dish for many years. Then we decided to put a TV in a spare bedroom. Both companies were advertising 3 rooms free. So I called Dish to ask for an extra converter box for the third TV. They insisted the promotion was only for new customers. I reminded them I was a loyal customer with a perfect payment history for many years but they wouldn't budge. Actually I called a few times over the course of a few weeks but got the same answer each time. I called Direct and took them up on the 3 rooms free. I then called Dish to cancel and suddenly they ready to talk. But I told them it was too late - they had their chance... Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > I am looking for feedback on Dish Network vs Direct TV. Who has/had what > and what are your impressions. Any one had/have both? From hillman at planet-torque.com Mon Mar 14 07:45:16 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Tim wrote: > I have a spot for the dish on my house that is protected from the > elements pretty well so I don't think I will have to worry about heavy > rain or snow affecting the dish surface as much. I believe you will. I had DirecTV for about 8 years, and virtually all electrical storms will negatively effect your signal, to the point of being unable to watch TV. Heavy snow and rain, likewise. If you like to watch TV on beautiful sunny days, though, it's great. My dish was also protected. It's not the collection of anything on the dish that causes the signal problems, it's the interference in the air. I also had DirecTV ( now Hughes ) internet service for a while, on a separate, unprotected, dish. That was actually a little better than the TV, but thunderstorms still knocked it out reliably. -- David Hillman From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 07:48:49 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:48:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: <4D7E2AD1.1030103@gmail.com> We have DirecTV now. We had Dish. Between the two we had Comcast. Comcast was easily the worst in terms of signal delivery--constant pixellation, dropped signal, etc. For all the crap cable companies spew in commercials, they couldn't keep a signal to my house over a coax cable to save their lives. We live in the middle of a pine forest. There are 100-plus-foot tall trees, too deep to see through past twenty feet in, and they surround the house, getting to about 15 feet from the house. Satellite signal has not been a problem. Dish dropped for about five minutes during a hurricane (really), and DirecTV has pixellated a few times. My experience with regard to signal reception has been almost ideal for satellites. According to what I've heard, the key is to get the dish aimed correctly the first time. I guess ours have been. Having said all that, I detest DirecTV and will drop them as soon as the contract is up. The technical service is fine, but their business model turns my stomach. The first 100-plus channels are PPV. Shopping channels are placed in the channel line-up so that there's about one ever few channels--so much the better to get you to buybuybuy. There are approximately eleventybillion infomercial channels. To get to the channels you actually want to see feels like sifting through a gigantic cesspool. I feel like I'm paying them to bombard me with more of their attempts to generate yet more revenue off me. And then the adult PPV channels have extremely explicit movie names displayed in the channel guide. I have a kid. Not cool. So, I'll be going back to Dish ASAP. I might even cancel my DirecTV contract early. Scott On 3/14/2011 8:43 AM, Tim wrote: > Time to get rid of Charter (SUCKS) TV. > > I am looking for feedback on Dish Network vs Direct TV. Who has/had what and what are your impressions. Any one had/have both? > > I have a spot for the dish on my house that is protected from the elements pretty well so I don't think I will have to worry about heavy rain or snow affecting the dish surface as much. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Mar 14 08:05:26 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:05:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: <4D7E2EB6.20800@xxiii.com> On 3/14/2011 8:43 AM, Tim wrote: > I am looking for feedback on Dish Network vs Direct TV. Who has/had what and what are your impressions. Any one had/have both? I think you're supposed to qualify the question by claiming the TV is in your shop ;) I've had Dish for 9 years and been pretty happy with it. Decent customer service (people that speak English and are reasonably easy to contact by phone) easy to use web site for making payments. Contrary to rumors of frequent drop-outs with satellite, I don't loose signal unless it's raining VERY hard, or there is 1/2" of ice build up on the dish. (Recommend you do NOT use rubber mallet to dislodge ice, as mine now has little dents all over it, but doesn't seem to hurt performance.) I pay just under $68/mo for the claimed 200 or 250 channel package, local networks, one DVR receiver, and the various fees & taxes (no HD.) Err... actually I put it on "vacation standby" last June when divorce expenses were putting a crimp on, and have not reactivated it yet. So I really only had it for 8.5 years. Customer service has been good to deal with re the standby. I've not had nor used Direct, but the thing I usually hear is they're pretty comparable, but Direct's programming has more sports oriented stuff (which don't give a rat's tail about) and Dish has more "other" programming. -Wayne From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Mar 14 08:41:07 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:41:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <4D7E2AD1.1030103@gmail.com> References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> <4D7E2AD1.1030103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D7E3713.6060207@xxiii.com> On 3/14/2011 10:48 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > We live in the middle of a pine forest. There are 100-plus-foot tall > trees, too deep to see through past twenty feet in, and they surround > the house, getting to about 15 feet from the house. Satellite signal has > not been a problem. Dish dropped for about five minutes during a Neat. I'm in western North Carolina on a 40 degree or so slope with major tree cover. The dish is actually on a 100 foot coax run across one neighbor's yard, into the second, where it's a cleared horse pasture and can get a clear sky view. I've had outages maybe 5 or 6 times in over eight years. That includes stuff like a 2004 hurricane that dumped 3 feet of rain in 2 weeks. I suspect anyone having reception problems has a poorly aimed dish. The cable run doesn't seem to effect it. You do need an unobstructed shot at the sky. > contract is up. The technical service is fine, but their business model > turns my stomach. The first 100-plus channels are PPV. Shopping channels > are placed in the channel line-up so that there's about one ever few > channels--so much the better to get you to buybuybuy. There are Yeah, Dish has a lot of infomercial and shopping channels. Very telling that when in vacation standby, that stuff is still available. You can program the receiver with a custom list of channels so you can flip through just the stuff you want. I think it has like 10 personal lists available. > And then the adult PPV channels have extremely explicit movie names > displayed in the channel guide. I have a kid. Not cool. Dish has the pay-per-porn too but it's way up in the channels where you don't normally see it. I'm a pretty liberal minded guy but I don't think it's appropriate to have on by default. They should ask you at start up, or "opt in" to see it. You can hide or disable it easily enough, but it should work the other way around. (anyone seen the scene in Clerks where Randall is phoning the video order? "...oh, and "Happy Scrappy Hero Pup") -Wayne From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 08:56:55 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:56:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <4D7E3713.6060207@xxiii.com> References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> <4D7E2AD1.1030103@gmail.com> <4D7E3713.6060207@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4D7E3AC7.3020300@gmail.com> On 3/14/2011 11:41 AM, Wayne wrote: > > Neat. I'm in western North Carolina on a 40 degree or so slope with > major tree cover. The dish is actually on a 100 foot coax run across > one neighbor's yard, into the second, where it's a cleared horse > pasture and can get a clear sky view. I've had outages maybe 5 or 6 > times in over eight years. That includes stuff like a 2004 hurricane > that dumped 3 feet of rain in 2 weeks. I suspect anyone having > reception problems has a poorly aimed dish. The cable run doesn't > seem to effect it. You do need an unobstructed shot at the sky. The first thing installers say when they get to the house is, "Yeah, this isn't going to work." But it's never been a problem. One of the Comcast guys (on one of their dozens of trips to the house) even gave me five unsolicited minutes on how we were stuck with Comcast--heh, heh--because he used to be a satellite installer and there was no way we'd ever get a signal out there... Comcast, though, for some reason cannot get a signal to show up in my house over a physical cable. > Yeah, Dish has a lot of infomercial and shopping channels. Very > telling that when in vacation standby, that stuff is still available. > You can program the receiver with a custom list of channels so you can > flip through just the stuff you want. I think it has like 10 personal > lists available. I thought you could, and I tired for about a minute, once...then I gave up. I quit watching much of anything, and the t.v. tends to be for my wife and son, who figured out the essence of the thing in by the time the installer had left. > Dish has the pay-per-porn too but it's way up in the channels where > you don't normally see it. I'm a pretty liberal minded guy but I > don't think it's appropriate to have on by default. They should ask > you at start up, or "opt in" to see it. You can hide or disable it > easily enough, but it should work the other way around. I remember them having it, I just didn't remember, "Stacie and Tanya Take Huge Anal All Night" showing up so prominently on the channel guide. How about just, "Adult Program" and I have to select the program detail to see more? *That* I will invest the time into figuring out how to disable. I never considered myself conservative in that fashion, and my first thought when i saw it was that this would be a good opportunity for my son and I to have a discussion about what that sort of thing was--he's still young enough that it'd work. But the more I scroll through it, the more I think it might annoy me more than any effect it's having on him. He's usually looking for the Disney Channel, and he knows how to get straight to it. > (anyone seen the scene in Clerks where Randall is phoning the video > order? "...oh, and "Happy Scrappy Hero Pup") Excellent movie. :-) From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 09:01:51 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:01:51 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 10:45 AM, David Hillman wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Tim wrote: >> >> I have a spot for the dish on my house that is protected from the elements >> pretty well so I don't think I will have to worry about heavy rain or snow >> affecting the dish surface as much. > > B I believe you will. B I had DirecTV for about 8 years, and virtually all > electrical storms will negatively effect your signal, to the point of being > unable to watch TV. B Heavy snow and rain, likewise. B If you like to watch TV > on beautiful sunny days, though, it's great. B My dish was also protected. > B It's not the collection of anything on the dish that causes the signal > problems, it's the interference in the air. B I also had DirecTV ( now Hughes > ) internet service for a while, on a separate, unprotected, dish. B That was > actually a little better than the TV, but thunderstorms still knocked it out > reliably. > Rain fade is a real problem, but a properly mounted, and properly aimed dish shouldn't lose signal that easily. I've looked at installations where the dish moved in anything over a light breeze, which meant it lost signal. It's also pretty common to not aim right, just aiming until the signal is good enough when the installer is there. It's a perfectly fine signal, but there's less margin for loss due to interference, weather, etc. Installers tend to be paid flat rate, so spending time to get an installation perfect isn't high on their list. They don't have to watch the 'searching' screens. The other thing that can cause interference is something, like a tree, that moves into the line of sight when the wind blows. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Mon Mar 14 09:57:36 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, David Scheidt wrote: > Rain fade is a real problem, but a properly mounted, and properly aimed dish > shouldn't lose signal that easily. I've looked at installations where > the dish moved in anything over a light breeze, which meant it lost > signal. It's also pretty common to not aim right, just aiming until > the signal is good enough when the installer is there. It's a > perfectly fine signal, but there's less margin for loss due to > interference, weather, etc. Installers tend to be paid flat rate, so > spending time to get an installation perfect isn't high on their list. > They don't have to watch the 'searching' screens. I installed the TV dish myself, twice, and it was mounted and aligned as well as it could be. The bracket was originally lag-bolted through cedar siding into the studs on the corner of my house, under an eave. After re-siding the house, I moved the dish to the roof. Signal strength was mid-nineties on several transponders in both locations. I made repeated attempts to align it even better, hoping to improve reliability, but never had success. The larger internet dish has to professionally installed, and it was, on a huge tripod bolted into the roof joists of my garage. It also has to be aimed very accurately to even establish its bidirectional connection. While the professional was on my roof, I had him check the TV dish alignment with his birddog, and he said it was as good as any he'd seen or done. Neither system was very weather-tolerant, though. Hopefully YMWV. Both dishes are gone, and I have U-verse now. -- David Hillman From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 10:53:44 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:53:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 12:57 PM, David Hillman wrote: > > B The larger internet dish has to professionally installed, and it was, on a > huge tripod bolted into the roof joists of my garage. B It also has to be > aimed very accurately to even establish its bidirectional connection. B While > the professional was on my roof, I had him check the TV dish alignment with > his birddog, and he said it was as good as any he'd seen or done. > > B Neither system was very weather-tolerant, though. B Hopefully YMWV. Both > dishes are gone, and I have U-verse now. > > -- > B David Hillman > What's your latitude? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Mon Mar 14 11:06:13 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: References: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, David Scheidt wrote: > What's your latitude? 41.78* -- David Hillman From eric at megageek.com Mon Mar 14 11:16:40 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:16:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <20110314084301.QRITS.7849596.root@mp14> Message-ID: I've had Directv for years now and I LOVE it. There is no way I'll switch back to cable. As for Dish vs Directv, Dish seems cheaper, but I'm not sure what the difference is. I believe they offer less channels. Until Directv pisses me off, I'll stay with them. FWIW, I think in the past 10 years I've had Directv, I've lost signal maybe 3 times with the longest being about 10 mins. Dish placement is 99.99% of how good a singal you will have. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Tim Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 03/14/2011 08:28 To Shop Talk cc Subject [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV Time to get rid of Charter (SUCKS) TV. I am looking for feedback on Dish Network vs Direct TV. Who has/had what and what are your impressions. Any one had/have both? I have a spot for the dish on my house that is protected from the elements pretty well so I don't think I will have to worry about heavy rain or snow affecting the dish surface as much. thanks Tim Dairyland Datsuns _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From eric at megageek.com Mon Mar 14 11:23:56 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:23:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David writes... "It's not the collection of anything on the dish that causes the signal problems, it's the interference in the air." Actually, it's a little of both. However, a well placed dish will eliminate almost all of the problems, IF you aren't in an area prone to electrical storms. (I.e. some of Florida, etc.) This is most likely why to had different results with two services on different dishes in the same house. Like I said, I can count on one hand how many times I lost signal in the past 10 years. I also install Directv on all my rentals (and provide it as part of their rent). Aside from the occasional receiver glitch, I've never had a problem. Also, they have great customer service. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Mon Mar 14 11:27:48 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:27:48 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <4D7E2AD1.1030103@gmail.com> Message-ID: Scott writes... "The first 100-plus channels are PPV. Shopping channels are placed in the channel line-up so that there's about one ever few channels--" Scott, on your receiver there is a option to remove channels from your line up. Once you do that, you will never even know about the other channels or where they are. I've gotten my list down to the twenty or so channels I care about and I have no clue what else is out there. (But now I think I'll start to look for those adult PPV!) 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From hillman at planet-torque.com Mon Mar 14 12:22:41 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Actually, it's a little of both. However, a well placed dish will > eliminate almost all of the problems, IF you aren't in an area prone to > electrical storms. (I.e. some of Florida, etc.) > This is most likely why to had different results with two services on > different dishes in the same house. The results really weren't very different. The internet signal was slightly more reliable, but the huge majority of the time, they were either both out, or both on. I did have to build a ~15' brush to clear snow off the internet dish since it was larger and exposed ( and doesn't work at all when covered with snow ). I loved the satellite internet product for the first few years. I used to measure bandwidth higher than their support folks thought was possible. Over time, though, as they added customers, it got slower and slower until it finally wasn't worth it. I doubt seriously I was getting "impossible" throughput from a poorly-aligned dish. > Like I said, I can count on one hand how many times I lost signal in the > past 10 years. > I also install Directv on all my rentals (and provide it as part of their > rent). Aside from the occasional receiver glitch, I've never had a > problem. Also, they have great customer service. I don't think I'm the only one... Googling "DirecTV thunderstorm" yields a couple hundred thousand hits. This is probably going to come off like I'm some DirecTV-hater, but I'm not. I'm just a ex-customer who got what I think is a better deal elsewhere. That said, DirecTV is currently defending at least 2 class-action lawsuits for deceptive practices, and is rated F by the BBB ( http://www.la.bbb.org/Business-Report/DirecTV-Inc-81000357 ). They also paid the FTC the largest fine, ever, at the time, in 2005. Just FYI. -- David Hillman From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 12:33:40 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:33:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7E6D94.20705@gmail.com> And I forgot to add about DirecTV: the bill they're sending me is about $10 higher per month than what I agreed to. So for I've not been able to get resolution. I either pay it or cancel early with an early termination fee. No, it's not taxes, etc., each line is just between $1 and $2 higher than what they told it it would be. I'll be done with them as soon as I can be. On 3/14/2011 3:22 PM, David Hillman wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: >> Actually, it's a little of both. However, a well placed dish will >> eliminate almost all of the problems, IF you aren't in an area prone to >> electrical storms. (I.e. some of Florida, etc.) >> This is most likely why to had different results with two services on >> different dishes in the same house. > > The results really weren't very different. The internet signal was > slightly more reliable, but the huge majority of the time, they were > either both out, or both on. I did have to build a ~15' brush to > clear snow off the internet dish since it was larger and exposed ( and > doesn't work at all when covered with snow ). > > I loved the satellite internet product for the first few years. I > used to measure bandwidth higher than their support folks thought was > possible. Over time, though, as they added customers, it got slower > and slower until it finally wasn't worth it. I doubt seriously I was > getting "impossible" throughput from a poorly-aligned dish. > >> Like I said, I can count on one hand how many times I lost signal in the >> past 10 years. >> I also install Directv on all my rentals (and provide it as part of >> their >> rent). Aside from the occasional receiver glitch, I've never had a >> problem. Also, they have great customer service. > > I don't think I'm the only one... Googling "DirecTV thunderstorm" > yields a couple hundred thousand hits. > > This is probably going to come off like I'm some DirecTV-hater, but > I'm not. I'm just a ex-customer who got what I think is a better deal > elsewhere. That said, DirecTV is currently defending at least 2 > class-action lawsuits for deceptive practices, and is rated F by the > BBB ( http://www.la.bbb.org/Business-Report/DirecTV-Inc-81000357 ). > They also paid the FTC the largest fine, ever, at the time, in 2005. > > Just FYI. From pat at hornesystemstx.com Mon Mar 14 13:20:53 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:20:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <4D7E6D94.20705@gmail.com> References: <4D7E6D94.20705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D7E78A5.4070107@hornesystemstx.com> About 10 years ago I was a Direct TV customer. I received a flier in the mail telling me to watch for a decrease in my bill. When my next bill arrived it was about $30 higher than before. A call to their customer support number informed me that, yes, the bill went up, but that there were more channels added, so the cost per channel was less than before. I asked what channels had been added and the list consisted entirely of infomercial channels, which I do not watch. I canceled the service that day and been with Dish Network ever since. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Scott Hall, On 3/14/2011 2:33 PM: > And I forgot to add about DirecTV: the bill they're sending me is > about $10 higher per month than what I agreed to. So for I've not > been able to get resolution. I either pay it or cancel early with an > early termination fee. > > No, it's not taxes, etc., each line is just between $1 and $2 higher > than what they told it it would be. > > I'll be done with them as soon as I can be. > > On 3/14/2011 3:22 PM, David Hillman wrote: >> On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: >>> Actually, it's a little of both. However, a well placed dish will >>> eliminate almost all of the problems, IF you aren't in an area prone to >>> electrical storms. (I.e. some of Florida, etc.) >>> This is most likely why to had different results with two services on >>> different dishes in the same house. >> >> The results really weren't very different. The internet signal >> was slightly more reliable, but the huge majority of the time, they >> were either both out, or both on. I did have to build a ~15' brush >> to clear snow off the internet dish since it was larger and exposed ( >> and doesn't work at all when covered with snow ). >> >> I loved the satellite internet product for the first few years. I >> used to measure bandwidth higher than their support folks thought was >> possible. Over time, though, as they added customers, it got slower >> and slower until it finally wasn't worth it. I doubt seriously I was >> getting "impossible" throughput from a poorly-aligned dish. >> >>> Like I said, I can count on one hand how many times I lost signal in >>> the >>> past 10 years. >>> I also install Directv on all my rentals (and provide it as part of >>> their >>> rent). Aside from the occasional receiver glitch, I've never had a >>> problem. Also, they have great customer service. >> >> I don't think I'm the only one... Googling "DirecTV thunderstorm" >> yields a couple hundred thousand hits. >> >> This is probably going to come off like I'm some DirecTV-hater, >> but I'm not. I'm just a ex-customer who got what I think is a better >> deal elsewhere. That said, DirecTV is currently defending at least 2 >> class-action lawsuits for deceptive practices, and is rated F by the >> BBB ( http://www.la.bbb.org/Business-Report/DirecTV-Inc-81000357 ). >> They also paid the FTC the largest fine, ever, at the time, in 2005. >> >> Just FYI. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Mar 14 19:42:57 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:42:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How not to use your Dremel Message-ID: http://www.womansday.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/11-dremel-electric-rotary-tool/1132558-1-eng-US/11-Dremel-Electric-Rotary-Tool.jpg Doug From tputland at charter.net Tue Mar 15 04:50:50 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 7:50:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dish Network vs Direct TV In-Reply-To: <4D7E78A5.4070107@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <20110315075050.ZWPLQ.14383498.root@mp17> Thanks for the feed back everyone! Tim Dairyland Datsuns From coles at colesnurseries.com Wed Mar 16 15:43:28 2011 From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan Fest) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:43:28 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers Message-ID: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> I was given a second hand dehumidier which I thought I'd run in the garage for a while to help dry things up. Whenever I run it, after say 7-8 hours, there's no water in the bin and the fins are frozen with ice on them. Is this one junk and I need to get another or is there a simple solution ?? Thanks, Dan From shochschild at att.net Wed Mar 16 15:58:32 2011 From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:58:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers In-Reply-To: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> References: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> Message-ID: <4D814098.3040909@att.net> Wait 'til summer. On 3/16/2011 5:43 PM, Dan Fest wrote: > I was given a second hand dehumidier which I thought I'd run in the garage for > a while to help dry things up. Whenever I run it, after say 7-8 hours, > there's no water in the bin and the fins are frozen with ice on them. Is this > one junk and I need to get another or is there a simple solution ?? > Thanks, > Dan From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 16 16:05:55 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:05:55 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers In-Reply-To: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> References: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> Message-ID: <074401cbe42e$b4e869f0$1eb93dd0$@rr.com> Most likely it's low on refrigerant. But check for anything blocking air flow first. I'm guessing that it's not worth having to service the refrigeration system unless you can do it yourself. New ones can be had for under $200. -- Randall From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Mar 16 16:08:18 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:08:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers In-Reply-To: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> References: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> Message-ID: <4D8142E2.50809@xxiii.com> On 3/16/2011 6:43 PM, Dan Fest wrote: > I was given a second hand dehumidier which I thought I'd run in the garage for > a while to help dry things up. Whenever I run it, after say 7-8 hours, > there's no water in the bin and the fins are frozen with ice on them. Is this > one junk and I need to get another or is there a simple solution ?? Icing can be a sign it's operating in too low an ambient temperature, or that the refrigerant is low. -w From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com Wed Mar 16 16:58:31 2011 From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:58:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwashers again... Message-ID: Wouldn't have thought to ask this list prior to the recent dishwasher thread... I got home and my wife told me the dishwasher wasn't filling with water (she's right). What to check? What to look at while I'm in there? Any good reference sites? This is a fairly simple Kenmore. Thanks, Matt From pj_thomas at comcast.net Wed Mar 16 17:36:42 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:36:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwashers again... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D81579A.8050804@comcast.net> On 3/16/2011 7:58 PM, Matt Trebelhorn wrote: > Wouldn't have thought to ask this list prior to the recent dishwasher > thread... > > I got home and my wife told me the dishwasher wasn't filling with > water (she's right). > > What to check? > > What to look at while I'm in there? > > Any good reference sites? > > This is a fairly simple Kenmore. In the bottom usually towards the from is is a float, usually and inverted cup. Sometimes a fork or something gets stuck under it leaving it in the "full" position. Check under it. If it rises and falls correctly listen for the click of the switch when you raise and lower it. No click, remove the kick plate and check the contacts with an ohm meter. Peter T. > > Thanks, > Matt > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From bk13 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 21:39:11 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:39:11 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers In-Reply-To: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> References: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> Message-ID: <4D81906F.6050409@earthlink.net> Dan - I had a similar problem with an old Kenmore I picked up for $10. It would ice up below about 65 degrees. At 70-80 degrees it worked fine and got a similar amount of water compared to my new dehumidifier when both were run at the same time. There are dehumidifiers for room temp and ones for lower temperature ranges (search 'dehumidifier low temp'). I saw the other replies on it being low on refrigerant and agree it could be a factor, but I'd also try it in a warm location before junking it. One option I did for a while was to take a small electric heater and have it blow towards the air going into the humidifier. This helped lessen the icing most of the time back in my single days when I didn't run the heat in my apartment. You can also find more searching 'dehumidifier keeps freezing' As a side note, the old dehumidifier was run a bunch with my first daughter. We used it to get her to sleep by putting her in her car seat carrier on top of the unit (it was wide and flat). The steady noise and vibration worked surprisingly well. Brian On 3/16/2011 3:43 PM, Dan Fest wrote: > I was given a second hand dehumidier which I thought I'd run in the garage for > a while to help dry things up. Whenever I run it, after say 7-8 hours, > there's no water in the bin and the fins are frozen with ice on them. Is this > one junk and I need to get another or is there a simple solution ?? > Thanks, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Mar 17 05:35:04 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:35:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers In-Reply-To: <4D81906F.6050409@earthlink.net> References: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan> <4D81906F.6050409@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Could one plug the dehumidifier into a timer? Set it to run for a couple of hours then off for an hour, etc. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com Thu Mar 17 12:12:56 2011 From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:12:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwashers again... In-Reply-To: <4D81579A.8050804@comcast.net> References: <4D81579A.8050804@comcast.net> Message-ID: <27337071-7D5D-4B21-ACCB-DB39E3B0FE5A@trebelhorn.com> Looks like it was the float. Took it out, cleaned everything out (including some odd little bits of plastic that were floating around) and put it back together... and now it runs as normal. I had never worked on a dishwasher, or even spent too much time contemplating the various functions and components. So thanks for the quick and helpful responses! Thanks, Matt On 16 Mar, 2011, at 8:36 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > On 3/16/2011 7:58 PM, Matt Trebelhorn wrote: >> Wouldn't have thought to ask this list prior to the recent >> dishwasher thread... >> >> I got home and my wife told me the dishwasher wasn't filling with >> water (she's right). >> >> What to check? >> >> What to look at while I'm in there? >> >> Any good reference sites? >> >> This is a fairly simple Kenmore. > > In the bottom usually towards the from is is a float, usually and > inverted cup. Sometimes a fork or something gets stuck under it > leaving it in the "full" position. Check under it. If it rises > and falls correctly listen for the click of the switch when you > raise and lower it. No click, remove the kick plate and check the > contacts with an ohm meter. > > Peter T. >> >> Thanks, >> Matt >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop- >> talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From jibjib at att.net Thu Mar 17 16:22:22 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:22:22 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers In-Reply-To: References: <19C4B05955C54292A8DE4008E2B9FAE7@Dan><4D81906F.6050409@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <26DA946DC80E49889EAA516A873695F7@EntCent> Sure, as long as it can handle the start up amps. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Eric J Russell Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 5:35 AM To: Dan Fest Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dehumidifiers Could one plug the dehumidifier into a timer? Set it to run for a couple of hours then off for an hour, etc. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:50:37 2011 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:50:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwashers again... In-Reply-To: <27337071-7D5D-4B21-ACCB-DB39E3B0FE5A@trebelhorn.com> References: , <4D81579A.8050804@comcast.net>, <27337071-7D5D-4B21-ACCB-DB39E3B0FE5A@trebelhorn.com> Message-ID: If in the future you need parts or drawings, I have had good luck with these guys. NFI... I just want them around when I need them again. :^) http://www.appliancepartspros.com Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:12:56 -0400 > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dishwashers again... > > Looks like it was the float. Took it out, cleaned everything out > (including some odd little bits of plastic that were floating around) > and put it back together... and now it runs as normal. > > I had never worked on a dishwasher, or even spent too much time > contemplating the various functions and components. So thanks for > the quick and helpful responses! > > Thanks, > Matt > > On 16 Mar, 2011, at 8:36 PM, Peter J. Thomas wrote: > > > On 3/16/2011 7:58 PM, Matt Trebelhorn wrote: > >> Wouldn't have thought to ask this list prior to the recent > >> dishwasher thread... > >> > >> I got home and my wife told me the dishwasher wasn't filling with > >> water (she's right). > >> > >> What to check? > >> > >> What to look at while I'm in there? > >> > >> Any good reference sites? > >> > >> This is a fairly simple Kenmore. > > > > In the bottom usually towards the from is is a float, usually and > > inverted cup. Sometimes a fork or something gets stuck under it > > leaving it in the "full" position. Check under it. If it rises > > and falls correctly listen for the click of the switch when you > > raise and lower it. No click, remove the kick plate and check the > > contacts with an ohm meter. > > > > Peter T. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Matt > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net > >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 > >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop- > >> talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sun Mar 20 09:56:10 2011 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 12:56:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... Message-ID: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> This is WAY off topic... Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I have considered popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window but the downside is that if I don't get an instant kill shot it could get back under the deck before he expired. The longer term implications are not pretty. So, I have decided to use a live trap..but now I am faced with another possible problem..what if the critter turns out to be a skunk? Now, what do you do with a live skunk in a live trap? This group always has a lot of good ideas ( and a few bad ones too) so let's see what you can do with this.. From bolin at mwt.net Sun Mar 20 10:27:18 2011 From: bolin at mwt.net (Bob Jeffers) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 12:27:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <1799C5DF7A8D47A19BD1047A1806A049@BobPC> When you set the trap cover the whole trap except for the opening with a blanket and if you catch Peppy just carefully cover the end with a cloth and gently carry it away and properly dispose of said catch. NO FOUL NO STINK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... > This is WAY off topic... > > > > Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I have > considered > popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window but the downside is that if I > don't get an instant kill shot it could get back under the deck before he > expired. The longer term implications are not pretty. > > > > So, I have decided to use a live trap..but now I am faced with another > possible problem..what if the critter turns out to be a skunk? Now, what > do > you do with a live skunk in a live trap? > > > > This group always has a lot of good ideas ( and a few bad ones too) so > let's see what you can do with this.. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bolin at mwt.net From bk13 at earthlink.net Sun Mar 20 10:47:57 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:47:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <4D863DCD.7050807@earthlink.net> Gerald - I am assuming you have a low deck. Do you know where the critter is going under the deck? If so, make sure all other areas are blocked then make some sort of one way flap at the entrance. That should let the critter out and not back in. Hopefully it would then move to another home away from your deck. For the trap, take a long rope and tie it to the trap. Might be good to use something metal (not chewable) to attach the rope to the trap. If it turns out to be a skunk, you could drag it away from a safe distance. You may want to see if you city/town/county has some sort of animal control program. They could haul it away to a better location and may go so far as to actually trap it for you. I think my skunk is finally gone. I had a couple days in a row where I saw it in the back yard 10 feet from the house. I had a burrow of some sort down my back slope and just dropped some big chunks of concrete down it and have not seen the skunk in months. Brian On 3/20/2011 9:56 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote: > This is WAY off topic... > > > > Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I have considered > popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window but the downside is that if I > don't get an instant kill shot it could get back under the deck before he > expired. The longer term implications are not pretty. > > > > So, I have decided to use a live trap..but now I am faced with another > possible problem..what if the critter turns out to be a skunk? Now, what do > you do with a live skunk in a live trap? > > > > This group always has a lot of good ideas ( and a few bad ones too) so > let's see what you can do with this.. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From kennedybc at comcast.net Sun Mar 20 10:55:05 2011 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:55:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <1799C5DF7A8D47A19BD1047A1806A049@BobPC> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> <1799C5DF7A8D47A19BD1047A1806A049@BobPC> Message-ID: <85E08FAC-93E3-45D2-B7E2-D62092B1E792@comcast.net> When I was in the Black Hills many years ago, I was told you just grab them by the tail. If their feet are off the ground they can't spray. I must have missed the part of the lecture about how you get close enough to do that, or what you do with it once you've got ahold of the tail. There may be a flaw or two in this strategy. Brian K. On Mar 20, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Bob Jeffers wrote: > When you set the trap cover the whole trap except for the opening with a blanket and if you catch Peppy just carefully cover the end with a cloth and gently carry it away and properly dispose of said catch. NO FOUL NO STINK > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" > To: "shop-talk" > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 11:56 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... > > >> This is WAY off topic... >> >> >> >> Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I have considered >> popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window but the downside is that if I >> don't get an instant kill shot it could get back under the deck before he >> expired. The longer term implications are not pretty. >> >> >> >> So, I have decided to use a live trap..but now I am faced with another >> possible problem..what if the critter turns out to be a skunk? Now, what do >> you do with a live skunk in a live trap? >> >> >> >> This group always has a lot of good ideas ( and a few bad ones too) so >> let's see what you can do with this..\ From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Mar 20 12:27:44 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 14:27:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <4D865530.1010308@tx.rr.com> off the top of my head... set up the live trap, connect some LONG ropes to it, both to the trap itself and to the door capture critter drag critter a long way from deck patch openings under deck turn critter loose with long ropes, you could hopefully stay out of the range of a possible skunk, although the yard might smell bad for awhile > This is WAY off topic... > > > > Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I have considered > popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window but the downside is that if I > don't get an instant kill shot it could get back under the deck before he > expired. The longer term implications are not pretty. From lspector at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 18:20:00 2011 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 21:20:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? Message-ID: I've got an old set of Victor SR5/6B oxygen/acetylene regulators. When I went to use them today, the oxygen regulator was behaving erratically- either not supplying enough O2, or suddenly supplying too much. Is it worth getting it repaired, or should I just replace them? If repair/refurb is an option- any suggestions as to who will do a good job? The oxygen supply is somewhere around 2000psi, so I don't feel comfortable messing with them myself... Thanks for the help! Larry From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sun Mar 20 18:55:11 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:55:11 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? References: Message-ID: <9C7999AAA3FC4F3995E482D4FAB27D02@john5043a2d406> check a local welding supply store for estimate for repair vrs new purchase.... lots of times it's cheaper to fix john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Spector" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 7:20 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? > I've got an old set of Victor SR5/6B oxygen/acetylene regulators. When I > went to use them today, the oxygen regulator was behaving erratically- > either not supplying enough O2, or suddenly supplying too much. Is it > worth > getting it repaired, or should I just replace them? If repair/refurb is an > option- any suggestions as to who will do a good job? > > The oxygen supply is somewhere around 2000psi, so I don't feel comfortable > messing with them myself... > > Thanks for the help! > > Larry > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3519 - Release Date: 03/20/11 From cavanadd at frontier.com Sun Mar 20 19:17:06 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:17:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <4D86B522.6090405@frontier.com> My dad used to have trouble with skunks on his property. He would catch them in a live trap, then use a long pole to pick up the trap and then drop it in the stock watering tank. It wasn't particularly nice or pretty, but it worked. Gerald Brazil wrote: > This is WAY off topic... > > > > Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I have considered > popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window but the downside is that if I > don't get an instant kill shot it could get back under the deck before he > expired. The longer term implications are not pretty. > > > > So, I have decided to use a live trap..but now I am faced with another > possible problem..what if the critter turns out to be a skunk? Now, what do > you do with a live skunk in a live trap? > > > > This group always has a lot of good ideas ( and a few bad ones too) so > let's see what you can do with this.. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Mar 20 20:45:09 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <02f501cbe77a$606fb0f0$0301a8c0@randall> > what if the critter turns out to be a skunk? Well, don't tell PETA, but it seems to me that you've just solved the problem of it running back under the deck after you shoot it. -- Randall From shop at shariconglobal.com Mon Mar 21 05:59:55 2011 From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 08:59:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <80EA0B156C3B4E0A89FE374F6A83CEB6@Tablet> If you care about such things you may want to look into what your local laws are regarding catch&release. Around here it's very much illegal to do so with skunks/gophers/opossums/etc as they're rabies vectors. YMMV, but IMO catch&shoot is a whole lot less of a headache than having to transport it somewhere (especially if it's a skunk). > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Gerald Brazil > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:56 PM > To: shop-talk > Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... > > This is WAY off topic... > > > > Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I > have considered popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window > but the downside is that if I don't get an instant kill shot > it could get back under the deck before he expired. The > longer term implications are not pretty. > > ...... From tputland at charter.net Mon Mar 21 06:25:32 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 6:25:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <80EA0B156C3B4E0A89FE374F6A83CEB6@Tablet> Message-ID: <20110321092532.AQCHJ.9137926.root@mp20> What ever you do....do it quick. If it is a female, you want to get rid of it before it gives birth..... From pj_thomas at comcast.net Mon Mar 21 06:24:47 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 09:24:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <1799C5DF7A8D47A19BD1047A1806A049@BobPC> References: <001a01cbe71f$b7e98cd0$27bca670$@cablespeed.com> <1799C5DF7A8D47A19BD1047A1806A049@BobPC> Message-ID: <4D87519F.1000307@comcast.net> On 3/20/2011 1:27 PM, Bob Jeffers wrote: > When you set the trap cover the whole trap except for the opening with > a blanket and if you catch Peppy just carefully cover the end with a > cloth and gently carry it away and properly dispose of said catch. NO > FOUL NO STINK I think Bob is correct. I saw an episode of MythBusters where they were testing skunk remedies. Jamie and Adam were deliberately trying to get skunked. The skunks were provided by a pest removal in live traps. Three skunks failed to cooperate and they had to resort to bottle skunk. The handler protected himself by just covering the cage trap. I'd set the trap out covered and fold over the part covering the entrance so you could just fold it back over later. Even if the skunk fired the cover would take the hit. I'd also were old clothes may even a painters Tyvek suit. Peter T. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" > > To: "shop-talk" > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 11:56 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... > > >> This is WAY off topic... >> >> >> >> Some sort of critter has taken up residence under my deck. I have >> considered >> popping it with a 22 from an upstairs window but the downside is that >> if I >> don't get an instant kill shot it could get back under the deck >> before he >> expired. The longer term implications are not pretty. >> >> >> >> So, I have decided to use a live trap..but now I am faced with another >> possible problem..what if the critter turns out to be a skunk? Now, >> what do >> you do with a live skunk in a live trap? >> >> >> >> This group always has a lot of good ideas ( and a few bad ones too) so >> let's see what you can do with this.. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bolin at mwt.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Mon Mar 21 08:01:25 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:01:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <80EA0B156C3B4E0A89FE374F6A83CEB6@Tablet> Message-ID: <20110321150125.0QQG6.39837.root@cdptpa-web10-z01> I wonder if some places are exactly the opposite. On an episode of "Dirty Jobs" they were catching various animals that were going under peoples' houses. Every one of them they basically took across the street and let go, but they did try to patch the holes under the house where the animals were getting in. IIRC this was somewhere in California, which sounds about right for them. > If you care about such things you may want to look into what your local laws > are regarding catch&release. Around here it's very much illegal to do so > with skunks/gophers/opossums/etc as they're rabies vectors. From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Mar 21 08:05:05 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:05:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? In-Reply-To: <9C7999AAA3FC4F3995E482D4FAB27D02@john5043a2d406> References: <9C7999AAA3FC4F3995E482D4FAB27D02@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <002701cbe7d9$5cbc60c0$16352240$@ameritech.net> As John says, fix them - you'll probably find that a cleaning and new diaphragms will make them work like new for only a few bucks. Nothing much to wear in a regulator, but the diaphragms do deteriorate. Karl -----Original Message----- From: John Niolon Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? check a local welding supply store for estimate for repair vrs new purchase.... lots of times it's cheaper to fix john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Spector" Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? > I've got an old set of Victor SR5/6B oxygen/acetylene regulators. When I > went to use them today, the oxygen regulator was behaving erratically- > either not supplying enough O2, or suddenly supplying too much. Is it > worth > getting it repaired, or should I just replace them? If repair/refurb is an > option- any suggestions as to who will do a good job? > Larry From shop at shariconglobal.com Mon Mar 21 08:32:49 2011 From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:32:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] My equivalent of a nuclear meltdown..... In-Reply-To: <20110321150125.0QQG6.39837.root@cdptpa-web10-z01> References: <80EA0B156C3B4E0A89FE374F6A83CEB6@Tablet> <20110321150125.0QQG6.39837.root@cdptpa-web10-z01> Message-ID: <68F7A5F3161A4A1590AE37CBE0D2A068@Tablet> Could be. Unfortunately I can't remember where I found the regulation, but it's definitely the case here (just outside Philadelphia, PA). Reason I know this is that my wife and I spent several weeks disagreeing as to how to handle the gophers living under our porch and finding the regulation is what settled the matter (and made my life much easier). -aric. > I wonder if some places are exactly the opposite. On an > episode of "Dirty Jobs" they were catching various animals > that were going under peoples' houses. Every one of them > they basically took across the street and let go, but they > did try to patch the holes under the house where the animals > were getting in. IIRC this was somewhere in California, > which sounds about right for them. > > > > If you care about such things you may want to look into what your > > local laws are regarding catch&release. Around here it's very much > > illegal to do so with skunks/gophers/opossums/etc as > they're rabies vectors. From eric at megageek.com Mon Mar 21 16:58:29 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:58:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Web based shop manuals Message-ID: I used to subscribe to alldatadiy.com for their service manuals on vehicles. I let my subscription run out. When I was re-subscribing I remembered it wasn't that great. Does anyone have any recommendations on sites for service manuals? I don't mind paying for such a service (alldatadiy was like $20 a year) but free is better if available. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From lee at automate-it.com Mon Mar 21 18:36:19 2011 From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Web based shop manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used alldatadiy.com for a couple of years, but in the end I really prefer to just buy a real shop manual. When I had a '94 Nissan Quest I found alldatadiy completely useless; the information I got was marginal at best. For my '05 Mini I dropped the $100 it took to get the complete one from MiniMania. Really nice, and it sits on my bench in the garage. I recently wanted one for my wife's '04 Maxima, and didn't like the "thin" ones you can get from the auto parts houses (Chilton, etc.) I could not find a good hardcopy, but the best deal I found was on ebay! For $4.95 I got the complete, factory manual on CD (in .pdf format). Nice, good index and searchable. I went back to ebay when my son wanted to work on his MR-2, and found a similar CD-format one for him. Lee > I used to subscribe to alldatadiy.com for their service manuals on > vehicles. I let my subscription run out. > > When I was re-subscribing I remembered it wasn't that great. Does anyone > have any recommendations on sites for service manuals? > > I don't mind paying for such a service (alldatadiy was like $20 a year) > but free is better if available. From lspector at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 08:00:29 2011 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:00:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? In-Reply-To: <002701cbe7d9$5cbc60c0$16352240$@ameritech.net> References: <9C7999AAA3FC4F3995E482D4FAB27D02@john5043a2d406> <002701cbe7d9$5cbc60c0$16352240$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: Thanks all. I checked locally, and they want $80/ea for a rebuild- or $89/ea to exchange for new (chinese made) replacements. One of the online places ( billswelderrepair.com) quoted me $38/ea as a typical rebuild cost. Given that it's 1/2 the cost of the local shop (who'll probably send them out anyway), I plan to send them out. I'll post back and let you all know how it goes. Thanks again for the help! -Larry On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Karl Vacek wrote: > > As John says, fix them - you'll probably find that a cleaning and new > diaphragms will make them work like new for only a few bucks. Nothing much > to wear in a regulator, but the diaphragms do deteriorate. > > Karl > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Niolon > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? > > check a local welding supply store for estimate for repair vrs new > purchase.... lots of times it's cheaper to fix > > john > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Spector" > Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy/Acetylene regulator repair? > > > I've got an old set of Victor SR5/6B oxygen/acetylene regulators. When I > > went to use them today, the oxygen regulator was behaving erratically- > > either not supplying enough O2, or suddenly supplying too much. Is it > > worth > > getting it repaired, or should I just replace them? If repair/refurb is > an > > option- any suggestions as to who will do a good job? > > > Larry From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Mar 30 10:47:28 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 13:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been curious about this for a while, but unable to find an answer online. My house has standard residential AC electrical service, 100a at a nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, I always measure about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker circuit I just installed for my welder (nominally 240v) I measure ~264v. I have used at least three different (cheap) meters, all with similar results. Is this highly unusual? For a given resistance, 264v is going to provide about 10% more current than the nominal standard on the double-pole circuit. Is this risky or problematic? The single-pole circuits have been in-place for years, with no apparent problems, but I obviously don't want to blow up my Syncrowave. Thanks. -- David Hillman From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 11:02:47 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 14:02:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:47 PM, David Hillman wrote: > My house has standard residential AC electrical service, 100a at a > nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, I always measure > about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker circuit I just installed > for my welder (nominally 240v) I measure ~264v. I have used at least three > different (cheap) meters, all with similar results. I'd put in a call to my electrical utility. That's a bit high, assuming all 3 meters are accurate. If it is too high, they can adjust or replace the transformer. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From pethier at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 12:22:42 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <930998257.3372472.1301512962060.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Variations in voltage are pretty common around the USA. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Hillman" > I have been curious about this for a while, but unable to find an > answer online. My house has standard residential AC electrical > service, > 100a at a nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, > I > always measure about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker > circuit > I just installed for my welder (nominally 240v) I measure ~264v. I > have > used at least three different (cheap) meters, all with similar > results. > > Is this highly unusual? For a given resistance, 264v is going to > provide about 10% more current than the nominal standard on the > double-pole circuit. Is this risky or problematic? The single-pole > circuits have been in-place for years, with no apparent problems, but > I > obviously don't want to blow up my Syncrowave. From pethier at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 12:27:29 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:27:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1084189230.3372746.1301513249418.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Anybody have a favorite upright domestic vacuum cleaner? My wife's Hoover has just tossed its brush belt, and she does not like it enough for me to fix it. She likes them light, but with an accessory hose for simple attachments. I don't want to spend a fortune, but if there was a compelling reason, I would. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From 57healey at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 13:08:30 2011 From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 15:08:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <1084189230.3372746.1301513249418.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1084189230.3372746.1301513249418.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7569118615215526649@unknownmsgid> My wife loves her Dyson. I am not sure it would be worth the money to you, but she used to complain about a string of different brands before. We were on a every 2 year replacement cycle as she was battling dog and cat hair. After getting the Dyson 6 years ago, she hasn't complained. That's compelling enough for me! I did save some money by getting a refurbished unit. On Mar 30, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "pethier at comcast.net" wrote: > Anybody have a favorite upright domestic vacuum cleaner? > > My wife's Hoover has just tossed its brush belt, and she does not like it enough for me to fix it. > > She likes them light, but with an accessory hose for simple attachments. > > I don't want to spend a fortune, but if there was a compelling reason, I would. From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Wed Mar 30 13:19:08 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:19:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <1084189230.3372746.1301513249418.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20110330201908.J45YO.37277.root@cdptpa-web26-z01> We needed a new vacuum last year. (My wife was getting sick every time we vacuumed, so I decided to try a vacuum with HEPA filter.) I researched everything with a filter on BestBuy's website, and bought a bagless Bissel lift off. It is not light or cheap but it works well and has some interesting features. It has all of the hoses and so forth on the machine so you just pull out the main suction hose, stick an attachment on it, and go. When finished you stick the main hose back into its normal spot and it goes back to being a standard upright vacuum. The main suction canister can lift off of the upright base and you can carry it like a canister vacuum with a hose. I can vacuum half of my house and the tank will fill up with pet fur. It is easy to dump, and I keep going. My wife has not gotten sick when I use it. I read all of the user reviews for the models I was interested in and picked the one that I thought was best. Interestingly I read a lot of complaints about the expensive Dyson machines. > Anybody have a favorite upright domestic vacuum cleaner? > > My wife's Hoover has just tossed its brush belt, and she does not like it enough for me to fix it. > > She likes them light, but with an accessory hose for simple attachments. > > I don't want to spend a fortune, but if there was a compelling reason, I would. > > Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA > 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" > 2004 Suburban 8.1 > 2005 Lotus Elise > 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 > pethier [at] comcast [dot] net > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier > http://www.triumphtransamerica.org > http://www.mnautox.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 13:21:37 2011 From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:21:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I second the Dyson (other than the whole not wanting to spend a fortune part). As Patton noted, they work wonders with pet hair. We have 2 dogs and were going through quality, brand-name vacuum cleaners (canister and upright) at a rate of 1 per year. We've had the Dyson for a number of years (5 plus, I think) with no problems whatsoever. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> To: pethier at comcast.net Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:08:30 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) My wife loves her Dyson. I am not sure it would be worth the money to you, but she used to complain about a string of different brands before. We were on a every 2 year replacement cycle as she was battling dog and cat hair. After getting the Dyson 6 years ago, she hasn't complained. That's compelling enough for me! I did save some money by getting a refurbished unit. On Mar 30, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "pethier at comcast.net" wrote: > Anybody have a favorite upright domestic vacuum cleaner? > > My wife's Hoover has just tossed its brush belt, and she does not like it enough for me to fix it. > > She likes them light, but with an accessory hose for simple attachments. > > I don't want to spend a fortune, but if there was a compelling reason, I would. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 13:30:26 2011 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:30:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> Yet another vote for the Dyson. We've abused ours horribly for the past six years and we've been incredibly pleased with it. My wife couldn't vacuum before and now can because of the filters. And it does an amazing job of pulling up cat hair. -Paul -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tom & Marge FitzGibbon Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:22 PM To: Patton Dickson Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) I second the Dyson (other than the whole not wanting to spend a fortune part). As Patton noted, they work wonders with pet hair. We have 2 dogs and were going through quality, brand-name vacuum cleaners (canister and upright) at a rate of 1 per year. We've had the Dyson for a number of years (5 plus, I think) with no problems whatsoever. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> To: pethier at comcast.net Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:08:30 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) My wife loves her Dyson. I am not sure it would be worth the money to you, but she used to complain about a string of different brands before. We were on a every 2 year replacement cycle as she was battling dog and cat hair. After getting the Dyson 6 years ago, she hasn't complained. That's compelling enough for me! I did save some money by getting a refurbished unit. On Mar 30, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "pethier at comcast.net" wrote: > Anybody have a favorite upright domestic vacuum cleaner? > > My wife's Hoover has just tossed its brush belt, and she does not like it enough for me to fix it. > > She likes them light, but with an accessory hose for simple attachments. > > I don't want to spend a fortune, but if there was a compelling reason, I would. From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com Wed Mar 30 13:31:50 2011 From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:31:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.west chester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20110330162910.03b20320@pop.nycap.rr.com> Dyson here too! First one we have had in 38 years of marriage that elicits a WOW. From mg_garage at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 13:32:06 2011 From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:32:06 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76A7A444A0AB498097E20EE51EE47D1D@stargate> I'd say that's unusually high, but not highly unusual. Gordie B > I have been curious about this for a while, but unable to find an > answer online. My house has standard residential AC electrical service, > 100a at a nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, I > always measure about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker circuit > I just installed for my welder (nominally 240v) I measure ~264v. I have > used at least three different (cheap) meters, all with similar results. > > Is this highly unusual? For a given resistance, 264v is going to > provide about 10% more current than the nominal standard on the > double-pole circuit. Is this risky or problematic? The single-pole > circuits have been in-place for years, with no apparent problems, but I > obviously don't want to blow up my Syncrowave. > > Thanks. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mg_garage at comcast.net From Ronald.Griffing at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 13:47:47 2011 From: Ronald.Griffing at comcast.net (Ronald.Griffing at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:47:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1181470922.3199989.1301518067937.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> If your meter is measuring peak to peak, that's about right. The given voltage is in Root Mean Square, or RMS which will be lower than the peak-to-peak. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hillman" To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:47:28 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? I have been curious about this for a while, but unable to find an answer online. My house has standard residential AC electrical service, 100a at a nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, I always measure about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker circuit I just installed for my welder (nominally 240v) I measure ~264v. I have used at least three different (cheap) meters, all with similar results. Is this highly unusual? For a given resistance, 264v is going to provide about 10% more current than the nominal standard on the double-pole circuit. Is this risky or problematic? The single-pole circuits have been in-place for years, with no apparent problems, but I obviously don't want to blow up my Syncrowave. Thanks. -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronald.griffing at comcast.net From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Wed Mar 30 14:02:55 2011 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:02:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> Message-ID: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> I recently purchased a 220v band saw for my shop that has a 30 amp plug. My shop has plenty of 220v outlets, but they are all wired to 50 amp plugs and protected by 50 amp breakers. The 50 amp circuits were set up for a welder. I don't want to add new 30 amp plugs and breakers all over the shop. I would prefer to have something that would plug into the existing 50 amp sockets and terminate in a 30 amp receptacle for the saw. I also want to have a 30 amp breaker in the line that protects the saw. In other words, a 30 amp plug and circuit breaker down line from the 50 amp plug and breaker. What's the best way to do this while protecting the saw with a 30 amp breaker in the line? Gil Nashville From pdqtr6 at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 14:30:32 2011 From: pdqtr6 at comcast.net (pdqtr6 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 21:30:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <1084189230.3372746.1301513249418.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1965946902.240679.1301520632579.JavaMail.root@sz0012a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I can't stress this enough...B Avoid anything made by Kirby!!!B They are not light, reasonably priced, easy to use, inexpensive to maintain, or perfrom any better than an average cleaner (and worse than the best ones).B I speak from experience. Tom Walling B B ----- Original Message ----- From: pethier at comcast.net To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 3:27:29 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) Anybody have a favorite upright domestic vacuum cleaner? B My wife's Hoover has just tossed its brush belt, and she does not like it enough for me to fix it. She likes them light, but with an accessory hose for simple attachments. B I don't want to spend a fortune, but if there was a compelling reason, I would. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation B $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pdqtr6 at comcast.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 14:59:46 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:59:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: <4D93A7D2.1000505@comcast.net> On 3/30/2011 5:02 PM, Gil Fuqua wrote: > I recently purchased a 220v band saw for my shop that has a 30 amp plug. > My shop has plenty of 220v outlets, but they are all wired to 50 amp > plugs and protected by 50 amp breakers. The 50 amp circuits were set up > for a welder. > > I don't want to add new 30 amp plugs and breakers all over the shop. I > would prefer to have something that would plug into the existing 50 amp > sockets and terminate in a 30 amp receptacle for the saw. I also want > to have a 30 amp breaker in the line that protects the saw. In other > words, a 30 amp plug and circuit breaker down line from the 50 amp plug > and breaker. > > What's the best way to do this while protecting the saw with a 30 amp > breaker in the line? Circuit breakers are there to protect the wiring in the wall from the load, not the other way around. There is no reason for the additional circuit breaker. Peter Thomas > Gil > Nashville > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Mar 30 15:18:08 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:18:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D93AC20.50702@xxiii.com> On 3/30/2011 1:47 PM, David Hillman wrote: > a nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, I always > measure about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker circuit I just That's really high. Places I've lived and worked in the last 30 years come in pretty close at 120V. I don't know if it would really damage anything, other than making your lights brighter and shorter lived. Mine runs a pretty constant 119 - 121 on 200A service in a 10 year old house. BTW, there was talk a few months ago about TED meters. I've now had one for a couple months. Bother me off line if curious. -Wayne From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Mar 30 15:20:18 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:20:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: Can't you just replace the breaker and the receptacle with 30 amp versions? Doug On Mar 30, 2011 5:09 PM, "Gil Fuqua" wrote: > I recently purchased a 220v band saw for my shop that has a 30 amp plug. > My shop has plenty of 220v outlets, but they are all wired to 50 amp > plugs and protected by 50 amp breakers. The 50 amp circuits were set up > for a welder. > > I don't want to add new 30 amp plugs and breakers all over the shop. I > would prefer to have something that would plug into the existing 50 amp > sockets and terminate in a 30 amp receptacle for the saw. I also want > to have a 30 amp breaker in the line that protects the saw. In other > words, a 30 amp plug and circuit breaker down line from the 50 amp plug > and breaker. > > What's the best way to do this while protecting the saw with a 30 amp > breaker in the line? > > Gil > Nashville > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Mar 30 15:29:35 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: <1181470922.3199989.1301518067937.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1181470922.3199989.1301518067937.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Ronald.Griffing at comcast.net wrote: > If your meter is measuring peak to peak, that's about right. The given > voltage is in Root Mean Square, or RMS which will be lower than the > peak-to-peak. Outstanding point. I just borrowed a Fluke from the guy who sits next me ( very convenient ) and will check the voltage again tonight. -- David Hillman From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 15:47:47 2011 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:47:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: Forgive my ignorance, but is there any reason not to replace the plug on the saw so that it plugs into your 50A socket? Breakers don't protect the load and the saw will draw 30A no matter what circuit you plug it into. -Paul On Mar 30, 2011, at 5:02 PM, "Gil Fuqua" wrote: > I recently purchased a 220v band saw for my shop that has a 30 amp plug. > My shop has plenty of 220v outlets, but they are all wired to 50 amp > plugs and protected by 50 amp breakers. The 50 amp circuits were set up > for a welder. > > I don't want to add new 30 amp plugs and breakers all over the shop. I > would prefer to have something that would plug into the existing 50 amp > sockets and terminate in a 30 amp receptacle for the saw. I also want > to have a 30 amp breaker in the line that protects the saw. In other > words, a 30 amp plug and circuit breaker down line from the 50 amp plug > and breaker. > > What's the best way to do this while protecting the saw with a 30 amp > breaker in the line? > > Gil > Nashville From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 15:51:55 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:51:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Gil Fuqua wrote: > > What's the best way to do this while protecting the saw with a 30 amp > breaker in the line? Use wire sufficient to carry 50A, with a 30A receptacle at the end. No additional breaker needed. From battmain at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 15:52:13 2011 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 15:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <1965946902.240679.1301520632579.JavaMail.root@sz0012a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1965946902.240679.1301520632579.JavaMail.root@sz0012a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <162611.58080.qm@web161607.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Mine seems to be going strong too. Lemme see, '89 when mom bought it. Got too heavy for her to use. I inherited it. Other than belts, which last much longer if I remove the tension, the unit ran twice a day when I had my lab. Oh the bags get replaced too and when they're full, it's a bear to lift everything. I recently polished it up with some chrome cleaner and I'll say it sure looks spiffy. My dumb (bleep) stepped on the crevice cleaner when it fell as I was adding it to the hose. It will be replaced soon. There is lab hair that I can't get to without that attachment and the lab has been long gone. Original hose, no leaks. I'd say we've got our money's worth outta' the thing, but it sure was pricey. ~22yo and still runs. Regards, Brian Cc: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 5:30:32 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) I can't stress this enough...B Avoid anything made by Kirby!!!B They are not light, reasonably priced, easy to use, inexpensive to maintain, or perfrom any better than an average cleaner (and worse than the best ones).B (snip) From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 30 15:52:36 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 15:52:36 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: <0fe801cbef2d$2a2adcd0$7e809670$@rr.com> > I also want > to have a 30 amp breaker in the line that protects the saw. In other > words, a 30 amp plug and circuit breaker down line from the 50 amp plug > and breaker. If you really want to do all that, find a 30 amp RV outlet box with a breaker in it, and mount that to the side of the saw with a 50 amp cord to the wall outlet. But as noted, it's not really required. In fact, any RV store will sell you the 30 amp to 50 amp adapter fairly cheap. -- Randall From watsonm05 at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 15:56:22 2011 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:56:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: <1181470922.3199989.1301518067937.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1181470922.3199989.1301518067937.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: OK, the former electronics teacher has to speak up here. A nominal line voltage of 120V RMS = 120* sqrt(2) V Peak = 170 V Peak = 2* 170 V Peak = 340 V P-P (approx.). The conversion from Peak to RMS is V Peak * 1 / sqrt(2) = 0.707 * V Peak for a sinusoidal waveform. For any other waveform you have to square the wave, find its mean, then take the square root of that result. Of course it's called RMS = ROOT MEAN SQUARE which is the required operations in reverse order just to confuse everyone. Most cheap DMM's don't actually do the RMS function but display the RMS value based on measuring the peak voltage. So if the power at the David's house is a highly distorted sine wave that might explain the voltage difference though I'd be inclined not to think that that's the problem. In case anyone wants to rail against using RMS instead of peak or peak-to-peak (usually my students would immediately start this about the time they heard the first lecture about RMS and perceived the difficulties of dealing with it) basically the industry uses it because it allows direct "comparison" to DC measurements. That is the power dissipated by a resistor (P = V * I) calculated for a DC voltage impressed on a resistor is exactly the same as the power dissipated by the same resistor with the same RMS AC voltage impressed on it. And since power dissipation is basically just heat that's what's important to consider. And don't get me started on audio amplifier power ratings that are given based on peak to peak values instead of RMS - pure marketing HYPE! Hope this helps, Mark Watson -----Original Message----- From: Ronald.Griffing at comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:47 PM To: David Hillman Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? If your meter is measuring peak to peak, that's about right. The given voltage is in Root Mean Square, or RMS which will be lower than the peak-to-peak. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hillman" To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:47:28 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? I have been curious about this for a while, but unable to find an answer online. My house has standard residential AC electrical service, 100a at a nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, I always measure about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker circuit I just installed for my welder (nominally 240v) I measure ~264v. I have used at least three different (cheap) meters, all with similar results. Is this highly unusual? For a given resistance, 264v is going to provide about 10% more current than the nominal standard on the double-pole circuit. Is this risky or problematic? The single-pole circuits have been in-place for years, with no apparent problems, but I obviously don't want to blow up my Syncrowave. Thanks. -- David Hillman _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronald.griffing at comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/watsonm05 at comcast.net From watsonm05 at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 15:58:02 2011 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:58:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: <4D93AC20.50702@xxiii.com> References: <4D93AC20.50702@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Wayne - would keep any discussion about TED meters on line so we all can learn? Of course you'd be discussing their application in your shop, right? -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 6:18 PM To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? On 3/30/2011 1:47 PM, David Hillman wrote: > a nominal 120v. Whenever I put a meter on a circuit, though, I always > measure about 130v. Similarly, on the double-pole breaker circuit I just That's really high. Places I've lived and worked in the last 30 years come in pretty close at 120V. I don't know if it would really damage anything, other than making your lights brighter and shorter lived. Mine runs a pretty constant 119 - 121 on 200A service in a 10 year old house. BTW, there was talk a few months ago about TED meters. I've now had one for a couple months. Bother me off line if curious. -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/watsonm05 at comcast.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Mar 30 16:44:53 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:44:53 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: References: <1181470922.3199989.1301518067937.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <101001cbef34$78540060$68fc0120$@rr.com> > Most cheap DMM's > don't actually do the RMS function but display the RMS value based on > measuring the peak voltage. I agree. In other words, they display the peak voltage divided by 1.414 instead of true RMS. I've never seen a cheap meter that will display peak AC voltage directly. -- Randall From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Mar 30 17:34:32 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 130v/260v? In-Reply-To: References: <1181470922.3199989.1301518067937.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, David Hillman wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Ronald.Griffing at comcast.net wrote: >> If your meter is measuring peak to peak, that's about right. The given >> voltage is in Root Mean Square, or RMS which will be lower than the >> peak-to-peak. > > Outstanding point. I just borrowed a Fluke from the guy who sits next me > ( very convenient ) and will check the voltage again tonight. Just re-measured with the Fluke and one cheap meter side-by-each. 129v peak measured 125v RMS on the Fluke. 264v peak was 249 RMS ( 6% error ). Still high, but not enough to cause any problems, I don't think. I didn't think the difference would be that large. File under, "cheap tools" and "you pay for what you get". Thanks. -- David Hillman From cavanadd at frontier.com Wed Mar 30 19:01:43 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:01:43 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop) In-Reply-To: <1084189230.3372746.1301513249418.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1084189230.3372746.1301513249418.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D93E087.3010703@frontier.com> We had a big, heavy, noisy Panasonic for about 15 years or so. It finally got to be too much of a PITA and after much research my wife got a Hoover "wind tunnel technology" vacuum. It also came with a "free" small canister vac. She is very happy with them, and therefore, so am I. pethier at comcast.net wrote: > Anybody have a favorite upright domestic vacuum cleaner? > > My wife's Hoover has just tossed its brush belt, and she does not like it enough for me to fix it. > > She likes them light, but with an accessory hose for simple attachments. > > I don't want to spend a fortune, but if there was a compelling reason, I would. > > Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA > 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" > 2004 Suburban 8.1 > 2005 Lotus Elise > 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 > pethier [at] comcast [dot] net > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier > http://www.triumphtransamerica.org > http://www.mnautox.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From strovato at optonline.net Wed Mar 30 19:07:37 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 22:07:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Gil, I have had this very discussion with an electrician. I made the same arguments as the others replying, that a separate breaker isn't necessary. I lost. Fact of the matter is, if you really want to be correct, and comply with the electrical code, then you do need a 30 amp breaker. The equipment is rated for use on a particular amperage circuit. If something goes wrong, it can handle the 30 amps before the breaker trips. Can it handle the extra 20 amps until a 50 amp breaker trips? Maybe. Probably. But it wasn't built for that and there's no guarantee that something bad won't happen. I fully expect to receive a bunch of comments disagreeing with me. They will be logical and make perfect sense. You can probably chop off the plug and replace it with a 50 amp plug and run like that for the next hundred years without a problem. But it will not meet electrical code and will be slightly less safe. There are adapters for use with boats at a dock or RV's, but this is not the same situation. Now, as for your particular case, it seems to me that a band saw is the sort of thing you will use in one place. Can't you replace the breaker and outlet for one of those existing 220v outlets in your shop, and use the band saw there? There is no problem having a 30 amp circuit with heavier gauge wiring than required. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 05:02 PM 3/30/2011, Gil Fuqua wrote: >I recently purchased a 220v band saw for my shop that has a 30 amp plug. >My shop has plenty of 220v outlets, but they are all wired to 50 amp >plugs and protected by 50 amp breakers. The 50 amp circuits were set up >for a welder. > >I don't want to add new 30 amp plugs and breakers all over the shop. I >would prefer to have something that would plug into the existing 50 amp >sockets and terminate in a 30 amp receptacle for the saw. I also want >to have a 30 amp breaker in the line that protects the saw. In other >words, a 30 amp plug and circuit breaker down line from the 50 amp plug >and breaker. > >What's the best way to do this while protecting the saw with a 30 amp >breaker in the line? From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Wed Mar 30 19:13:29 2011 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:13:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 50A vs. 30A Message-ID: <7484A927ACD140068ECA6434F62E182C@delld520> <<>> The simple way to do this t\is to get a 50A plug and put it on the end of the saw and plug it in. The breaker protects the in wall wiring, the saw is supposed to protect itself, and run fine on any outlet providing 30A or more. Think of plugging a lamp with a 100W bulb into a 15A wall outlet: it only draws about 1 amp and is fine. Same with your saw (but way more fun to have). Mark Miller From marka at maracing.com Wed Mar 30 19:24:04 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 22:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <0fe801cbef2d$2a2adcd0$7e809670$@rr.com> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0fe801cbef2d$2a2adcd0$7e809670$@rr.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Randall wrote: > But as noted, it's not really required. In fact, any RV store will sell you > the 30 amp to 50 amp adapter fairly cheap. Most of these I see are like the one I use with my RV... They're intended to convert 30A 110vac to 50A 220vac (by putting the 'hot' leg on the 110 circuit to both hot legs on the 220 circuit, which works because in most RV's there aren't 220vac loads, only 110vac loads. Well... Works until you get past 30A of load that is... :-) To the OP... Put a 50A plug on the saw cord and call it a day. Mark From arvidj at visi.com Wed Mar 30 20:39:52 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 22:39:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Trovato Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:07 PM To: Gil Fuqua ; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker Gil, ... But it will not meet electrical code and will be slightly less safe. ... -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net Sorry but I need a little education here ... How then does every lamp, laptop power supply, corded electric power tool and every other thing that I have in my house meet code? None of them have 12 gauge wire on them yet they all plug into the outlets in my house that are rated for 20 amps? Heck, some of the devices seem to only have 20 gauge wire on them and are rated to draw only half an amp or less. Just curious? And I suspect your house has many situations that are similar to mine. That or you have a much more robust clock radio next to your bed than I do. Arvid From strovato at optonline.net Wed Mar 30 21:15:32 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:15:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yes, that's exactly what I said to my electrician friend. The answer is that your clock radio is designed to handle faults involving up to 20 Amps. That is, if something goes wrong inside, it is supposed to hang together without setting your night table on fire until the breaker blows. Now, nothing's perfect, otherwise all those nice firemen could take early retirement. But all those normal household devices are supposed to be designed to handle faults that might happen until the breaker trips. Now if you were to plug those devices into a higher amperage circuit, then they would have to handle fault conditions longer with higher current. Same idea with the saw. Perhaps if the saw motor shorts out a bunch of smoke comes out and the 30 amp breaker trips. Or smoke comes out and flames shoot out the back and the 50 amp breaker trips. Now neither of these is likely to happen. But that's the way a lot of safety stuff is. They try to make relatively unlikely bad things be even less likely to happen. -Steve At 11:39 PM 3/30/2011, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: >Sorry but I need a little education here ... > >How then does every lamp, laptop power supply, corded electric power >tool and every other thing that I have in my house meet code? None >of them have 12 gauge wire on them yet they all plug into the >outlets in my house that are rated for 20 amps? Heck, some of the >devices seem to only have 20 gauge wire on them and are rated to >draw only half an amp or less. > >Just curious? And I suspect your house has many situations that are >similar to mine. That or you have a much more robust clock radio >next to your bed than I do. > >Arvid From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Mar 31 06:13:40 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com><2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com><0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> > That is, if something goes wrong inside, it is supposed to > hang together without setting your night table on fire until the > breaker blows. Sorry, I don't buy that. The cord on my clock radio is only about 20 AWG; it will get hot enough to burn at 15 amps and never blow the breaker. Just curious, since everyone is quoting "the code": Are there places where some law forces you to use only "approved" portable appliances? I was under the impression that, in most places, the NEC was quoted only in reference to permanent installations (eg the wiring in the wall). At any rate, it's commonly done and I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. My motorhome had a 30 amp, 240v pigtail on it, and I carried one of those cheap adapters for when the campground only had 50A outlets. I didn't actually have any 240v appliances, but some do. -- Randall From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 07:49:10 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:49:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Randall wrote: > Are there places where > some law forces you to use only "approved" portable appliances? I suppose your insurance company will deny a claim if you burn your house down due to a non-UL Listed device. Having said that... Plugging a lower-current device into a higher-current receptacle is done every day. The overcurrent protection on the band saw should protect it, while the breaker will protect the wiring to the receptacle. It's not likely that you will let your band saw run unattended, anyway. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 08:26:42 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:26:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Randall wrote: >> Are there places where >> some law forces you to use only "approved" portable appliances? > > I suppose your insurance company will deny a claim if you burn your > house down due to a non-UL Listed device. UL approves devices that are against code. As an example, they have a rating for edison screw outlets. (A widget you screw into a light bulb socket to get a receptacle. ) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 08:32:08 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:32:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 12:15 AM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Yes, that's exactly what I said to my electrician friend. B The answer is > that your clock radio is designed to handle faults involving up to 20 Amps. > B That is, if something goes wrong inside, it is supposed to hang together > without setting your night table on fire until the breaker blows. Your electrician friend is either confused or having fun with you. The clock radio I just took apart (to see if I could fix the broken switch. Answer: not without surface mount desoldering...) would have burst into flame long before the 20A breaker feeding it blew. It had no visible circuit protection, and had the electric cord solder to its power supply. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From ronnie.day at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 08:36:31 2011 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:36:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: AFAIK, all motors in stationary power tools have built-in circuit breakers in any case. FWIW, Ron >> Are there places where >> some law forces you to use only "approved" portable appliances? > > I suppose your insurance company will deny a claim if you burn your > house down due to a non-UL Listed device. > > Having said that... B Plugging a lower-current device into a > higher-current receptacle is done every day. B The overcurrent > protection on the band saw should protect it, while the breaker will > protect the wiring to the receptacle. > > It's not likely that you will let your band saw run unattended, anyway. From marka at maracing.com Thu Mar 31 08:40:12 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: Howdy, Back to the OP's question... I think the way to do what you originally asked to do is per a previous response... I.e. Run a 6 gauge flexible extention cord with a 50A plug from the 50A receptacle to a 30A breaker box mounted on your saw (like http://www.amazon.com/Midwest-U013C-30-Amp-Box-Breaker/dp/B00076WQE0, but check to see if there's a difference between 110vac and 220vac). Plug the saw into that. Now, there's absoultely no way in hell that I'd do that, rather than just putting a 50A plug on the end of the saw cord, but if you want to spend lots of money for some perceived vs. actual safety, go for it. Mark From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Mar 31 08:56:29 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:56:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4D94A42D.10409@xxiii.com> On 3/31/2011 11:26 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > UL approves devices that are against code. As an example, they have a > rating for edison screw outlets. (A widget you screw into a light > bulb socket to get a receptacle. ) I wonder if the labels are even legit given most everything is made in China garbage. I think they get a hold of domestic products and just copy them, possibly not even knowing what Engrish on sticker mean. -Wayne From tputland at charter.net Thu Mar 31 09:40:35 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker Message-ID: <3a241f84.514fd.12f0cc9b09e.Webtop.41@charter.net> 'tis the season to be jorry Fra ra ra ra raaaaaaa Ra ra ra ra On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Wayne wrote: > On 3/31/2011 11:26 AM, David Scheidt wrote: >> UL approves devices that are against code. As an example, they have >> a >> rating for edison screw outlets. (A widget you screw into a light >> bulb socket to get a receptacle. ) > > I wonder if the labels are even legit given most everything is made in > China garbage. > > I think they get a hold of domestic products and just copy them, > possibly not even knowing what Engrish on sticker mean. > > -Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Thu Mar 31 09:48:01 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:48:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110331164802.RV9YO.19638.root@cdptpa-web24-z02> Virtually everything plugged into a wall outlet would be in this category. I'm real suspicious of the tiny little charger that comes with an iphone. It's barely a 1" cube, and I'm plugging it into a 110V outlet. > Having said that... Plugging a lower-current device into a > higher-current receptacle is done every day. From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Mar 31 09:57:20 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <3a241f84.514fd.12f0cc9b09e.Webtop.41@charter.net> References: <3a241f84.514fd.12f0cc9b09e.Webtop.41@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Tim wrote: > 'tis the season to be jorry > Fra ra ra ra raaaaaaa Ra ra ra ra http://engrishfunny.failblog.org/ -- David Hillman From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 12:35:49 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (scott.hall.personal at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:35:49 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: <3a241f84.514fd.12f0cc9b09e.Webtop.41@charter.net> References: <3a241f84.514fd.12f0cc9b09e.Webtop.41@charter.net> Message-ID: Best. Movie. Ever. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Tim Sender: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:40:35 To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker 'tis the season to be jorry Fra ra ra ra raaaaaaa Ra ra ra ra On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Wayne wrote: > On 3/31/2011 11:26 AM, David Scheidt wrote: >> UL approves devices that are against code. As an example, they have >> a >> rating for edison screw outlets. (A widget you screw into a light >> bulb socket to get a receptacle. ) > > I wonder if the labels are even legit given most everything is made in > China garbage. > > I think they get a hold of domestic products and just copy them, > possibly not even knowing what Engrish on sticker mean. > > -Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com From cavanadd at frontier.com Thu Mar 31 19:01:46 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:01:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4D95320A.40007@frontier.com> Depends on how you define "circuit breaker" and "stationary power tool". I have seen a lot of stationary tool motors (always single phase) that have thermal overloads built into them. Motor gets hot, switch opens. Motor cools off, it closes, motor starts again (if it's on a manual switch). Then again, I've seen a lot that don't have any overcurrenet protection built in, either. Delta R/I motors installed in vintage Unisaws and other commercial/industrial woodworking equipment come to mind. Motor starters, on the other hand usually always have overload protection of some kind built in. They are built to sense overcurrent (usually by thermal means) and will shut the motor down, where it will remain shut down until manually reset. Ronnie Day wrote: > AFAIK, all motors in stationary power tools have built-in circuit > breakers in any case. From cavanadd at frontier.com Thu Mar 31 19:08:57 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:08:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220V extension cord with breaker In-Reply-To: References: <361299374.281825.1301516459043.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1998817713.281864.1301516497416.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <006a01cbef19$4e71c1d0$eb554570$@com> <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC67B16E5@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> <0LIW004DPGKRHJ00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LIW008H7MI2W5Q0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <14aa01cbefa5$7461cd40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4D9533B9.20000@frontier.com> Well, not on purpose.... About 15 years ago I was cutting something fairly large with my relatively new Grizzly horizontal/vertical bandsaw (with a Chinese motor with no thermal overload, not to put too fine a point on things....) This is the kind of saw that Horrible Freight and everyone else in the world sells now, and most of us have one in the shop. Anyway, it's supposed to trip the manual on/off toggle switch when the cut completes and the blade housing drops down and switches it off. But this time it didn't. I set it up to cut, walked away from it and apparently forgot about it, because when I came back out to the shop the next morning the garage and shop were filled with the most horrible burned motor stink you can imagine. The saw kept running until it overheated, buned out the windings and apparently went to ground because the breaker was tripped. So much for "continuous duty" I suppose. I subsequently replaced the motor with an ODP from Horrible Freight (for about $25 bucks) and it's been working fine since. Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > It's not likely that you will let your band saw run unattended, anyway.