From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 01:20:47 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 00:20:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1105312341330.23677@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <OFCC0AFCF9.8DF3A143-ON852578A1.000DD09C-852578A1.000E9F9C@mail.megageek.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1105310917320.6978@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinsPxHfOkr8yYcrAxr+SXZFp2vR4Q@mail.gmail.com><0b2f01cc1fc3$463405c0$d29c1140$@rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1105312341330.23677@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <00ec01cc202c$6e16a750$0301a8c0@randall>

> If the compressor is somewhere you can't easily get to it, 
> that obviously 
> isn't going to work.

Call me lazy if you like.  The shop is at one end of the house, the
compressor is out in the back yard at the other end.  Only 50 feet if I had
an outside door, but instead it's more like 200 after walking through the
house and around the garden.  Plus I have a distressing tendency to stop for
a drink and then forget to go turn off the compressor and ball valve; which
usually results in it waking the wife up at 3 AM in a few days.  

So my goal is to have it just come on with a switch in the garage, next to
the light switch.  Maybe even in series with the light switch (so the
compressor can't run unless the lights are on).

-- Randall  

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun  1 04:24:49 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 06:24:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1105312341330.23677@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <OF9696DEA0.AE756F3F-ON852578A2.003A5638-852578A2.003A8D1A@mail.megageek.com>

OK, here is a new idea I have for dealing with the leaks...

I found an epoxy that is like a thick liquid.  I was thinking to put a 
vacuum in the air lines (not sure of the best way to do that) then pour 
the epoxy on the joints.  This should draw the epoxy into the leaking 
joints and form a better seal.

Anyone have any ideas about that?  What's the best way to get a small 
vacuum on an air line set up?

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
05/31/2011 23:24

To
"'shop-talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...






Howdy,

On Tue, 31 May 2011, Randall wrote:
>> If it were me, I'd put a valve on the compressor outlet that gets shut 
off
>> when I'm not out there and call it a day.
>
> So what type of remotely operated valve would be appropriate?
>
> I don't know much about solenoid valves, but it appears that the 
> inexpensive "piloted" valves always have a pressure drop across the 
> valve, which may not be ideal.  And "non-pilot" valves seem rather 
> expensive.

I have a regular old 3/4" (?? I think?) ball valve on my compressors 
output.

If the compressor is somewhere you can't easily get to it, that obviously 
isn't going to work.

Mark
_______________________________________________

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From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Jun  1 05:11:51 2011
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 06:11:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...
In-Reply-To: <OF9696DEA0.AE756F3F-ON852578A2.003A5638-852578A2.003A8D1A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF9696DEA0.AE756F3F-ON852578A2.003A5638-852578A2.003A8D1A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <174E3245E3AE4A23A4539261D8302A60@HP62011>

The issue that I see is that with a vacuum you would only be able to create 
... at best ... 14.7 psi at the joint. This might not be enough to push ... 
or suck depending on how you want to look at it ... the thick liquid into 
the leaking joint.

You mentioned that there are only minor leaks with over 100 psi in the 
system. Removing all of the air from the system leaves you with only regular 
air pressure on the outside of the joint and I suspect ... but can not prove 
... that will not be enough to accomplish your goal.

I would think a very thin liquid would be a better choice to get into the 
joint but a material that meets that criteria may not meet any of the other 
criteria for sealing the system over time, vibration, etc.

Arvid

-----Original Message----- 
From: eric at megageek.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:24 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...

OK, here is a new idea I have for dealing with the leaks...

I found an epoxy that is like a thick liquid.  I was thinking to put a
vacuum in the air lines (not sure of the best way to do that) then pour
the epoxy on the joints.  This should draw the epoxy into the leaking
joints and form a better seal.

Anyone have any ideas about that?  What's the best way to get a small
vacuum on an air line set up?

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
Waldo Emerson 

From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Jun  1 05:11:54 2011
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 07:11:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...
In-Reply-To: <OF9696DEA0.AE756F3F-ON852578A2.003A5638-852578A2.003A8D1A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1105312341330.23677@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<OF9696DEA0.AE756F3F-ON852578A2.003A5638-852578A2.003A8D1A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinOkQYgqd34=F4Z5G=GoK_e18iANg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:24 AM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>  What's the best way to get a small
> vacuum on an air line set up?

A vacuum pump?  If you know someone in the air conditioning business,
you might borrow one.  Or, buy one from your favorite cheap tool
store...

http://www.2linc.com/venturi_vacuum.htm

Also, something like a MightyVac could do it, but that would be a lot
of pumping.


You can also create one with a venturi, but I don't know how far you
can draw it down...here's a diagram of one:

http://www.2linc.com/venturi_vacuum.htm

A cheap guy with lots of spare time might be able to build one.

Jeff Scarbrough
Tightfisted Acres, Ga.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 06:00:23 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 07:00:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
Message-ID: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>

small leaks ??  vacuums and slime and epoxy, oh my ???  In my case, I have
small leaks also.  My tank and system will leak down in 3-4 days.  However it
might be 5-14 days before I need air again.

My major problem is remembering to turn off my compressor when I leave the
shop !  I usually notice the lights flicker in the house when it comes on and
I go out to kill the breaker.

I think you're past the point of diminishing returns...  I don't know if I've
EVER seen a system that is totally leak free... Readily available air is nice
convenience, but my old Quincy 300 will get me what I need in less than 5
minutes.  I spend that time putting away tools and stuff.

I really don't want my compressor coming on in the middle of the night or when
I'm out of the shop.  I've had a situation once where my pressure cut off
switch contacts fused and the compressor ran for hours/days. I really don't
know how long... I went on an over night trip so it COULD have run for 30
hours.. with my luck the contacts stuck as I pulled out of the driveway...
(I've since added a contactor to start the compressor.) Somewhere up in the
"higher than you'd want" pressure ranges it blew a flex hose and kept adding
hot compressed air to the atmosphere .  I may be the guy Al Gore is looking
for !!!

I'm 63 now and have far more things to try to get done before I kick than
eliminating leaks in the compressor circuit..  I've got a truck to finish
building.

What is next on your list to do ???

later
john

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun  1 06:50:30 2011
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 07:50:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...
In-Reply-To: <0b2f01cc1fc3$463405c0$d29c1140$@rr.com>
References: <OFCC0AFCF9.8DF3A143-ON852578A1.000DD09C-852578A1.000E9F9C@mail.megageek.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1105310917320.6978@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BANLkTinsPxHfOkr8yYcrAxr+SXZFp2vR4Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<0b2f01cc1fc3$463405c0$d29c1140$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4DE63596.8030907@hornesystemstx.com>

I bought a 1" stainless steel, motor operated ball valve on eBay about a 
year ago. My shop has an apartment over it, which is not used all the 
time. I wanted to monitor for leaks at the appliances and turn off the 
water to the apartment if/when there was a leak. I still have it and 
plan on installing it "soon", but haven't yet.

This valve is made by Mars, and the complete assembly is marked Triac 
Controls, model EP=400. It runs on 24v ac/dc.
I think I paid about $30 for it.  It is similar to 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Actuated-Ball-Valve-1-SS-Ball-Valve-120AC-New-/280684715401?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415a1cdd89

If you don't work in your shop with the lights off you might consider 
connecting the valve to your lights so when the lights go off, the 
compressor is isolated.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall, On 5/31/2011 1:47 PM:
>> If it were me, I'd put a valve on the compressor outlet that gets shut off
>> when I'm not out there and call it a day.
> So what type of remotely operated valve would be appropriate?
>
> I don't know much about solenoid valves, but it appears that the inexpensive
> "piloted" valves always have a pressure drop across the valve, which may not
> be ideal.  And "non-pilot" valves seem rather expensive.
>
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jun  1 06:58:20 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 08:58:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
References: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110601084927.04d6c758@cox.net>

At 08:00 AM 6/1/2011, john niolon wrote:

 >small leaks ??  vacuums and slime and epoxy, oh my ???  In my case, I have
 >small leaks also.  My tank and system will leak down in 3-4 days.  However it
 >might be 5-14 days before I need air again.

 >My major problem is remembering to turn off my compressor when I leave the
 >shop !  I usually notice the lights flicker in the house when it comes on and
 >I go out to kill the breaker.

 >I think you're past the point of diminishing returns...  I don't know if I've
 >EVER seen a system that is totally leak free... Readily available air is nice
 >convenience, but my old Quincy 300 will get me what I need in less than 5
 >minutes.  I spend that time putting away tools and stuff.

I have to agree with John.  My system will leak down in a day.  That was fine,
it wasn't worth my time to find and stop the leaks.  When I turn on my
compressor, then I drag out my air hoses and hook them up.  Start getting the
various tools out for what ever job I'm going to be working on, and by them
my compressor shuts off, especially if I have to jack up the car.

So live with the leaks.

I don't like leaving my compressor on when I'm not in the shop.  Over the last
20 years with it, I've had problems with the hoses I had going to my 
cooling coil
blow, quit frequently - hasn't done it in years now,  had it throw 
the belt a lot,
and had the motor break it's self loose from the bracket it is welded 
to.  All 3 would lead to the compressor running continuously if I 
were not there to turn
it off.

On a side note, appliances are probably a lot better today than they were, but
my mom wouldn't leave the house with anything on.  So neigther do I.  I don't
like leaving the ceiling fan on, the washer or dryer, or 
stove.  About the only
things I leave on, is the heat pump and the hot water heater.  Now I 
do realize
that most of the new appliances, TVs, etc. all are on all the 
time.  A lot of those
things are on power strips, and if I'm going to be away for more than 
8 - 10 hrs.
I'll turn them off, and when I think about it, I'll even trip the 
circuit breaker for
the hot water heater.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun  1 06:59:21 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:59:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <OF34A11FCD.AAC3C442-ON852578A2.0048361C-852578A2.0048B2CC@mail.megageek.com>

John, 

I understand where you are coming from.  My only problem with it is how do 
they get these things to work in the millions of other installations out 
there.

Yesterday I filled up my propane tank for the fork-lift, I noticed that 
the entire fill station is plumbed with the same exact pipe.  How do they 
get it to work but I can't?

I don't mind being a little lax from time to time, but the fact that this 
is leaking to me is borderline 'shoddy', and it will bother me to no end. 
And yes, I also have welded one of the joints and that worked (but was a 
pain.)

I guess now is the time we can tell that this is a list of old British car 
guys.  No where else would a group of people accept such a failure rate!!! 
8>)  (totally kidding!!)

BTW, did you here that 98% of all Lucas electronic vehicles are still on 
the road today?  Turns out that the other 2% made it back home!!!  8>) 
(been saving that one.)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Jun  1 08:27:57 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:27:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110601084927.04d6c758@cox.net>
References: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110601084927.04d6c758@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4DE64C6D.7090100@gmail.com>

On 6/1/2011 8:58 AM, John T. Blair wrote:
> when I think about it, I'll even trip the circuit breaker for
> the hot water heater.
>

Wow.  :-)

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 10:30:48 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 09:30:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga continues...
In-Reply-To: <OF9696DEA0.AE756F3F-ON852578A2.003A5638-852578A2.003A8D1A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1105312341330.23677@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<OF9696DEA0.AE756F3F-ON852578A2.003A5638-852578A2.003A8D1A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <01b601cc2079$43df6fb0$0301a8c0@randall>

> What's the best way to get a small 
> vacuum on an air line set up?

If you can temporarily get air without the plumbing system, HF sells a cheap
venturi vacuum pump that works pretty well.  IMO it doesn't pull down far
enough for A/C work, but it will do for vacuum forming and whatnot.

-- Randall  

From mikey at b2systems.com  Wed Jun  1 11:46:59 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:46:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
References: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4DE67B13.7000905@b2systems.com>

Best way to say it is that my air system is a bunch of leaks connected 
together by some pipes.

This talk sure makes me happy I went with copper as the only leaks I 
have are at the quick disconnect fittings themselves.  I also have a 
auto-drain on my compressor set to release 1 minute every hour to get 
rid of water in the tank, it will drain the tank in a about a week 
anyway if I don't use the compressor, so leaks in the line are not a big 
deal.

  There has to be some thing available at the plumbing supply stores 
that is fairly thick and that you put on the threads when you assemble 
the pipes, you can't be the first person to run into this.  I think the 
vacuum with epoxy is just too far fetched and too much work.

From tputland at charter.net  Wed Jun  1 11:57:59 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 13:57:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
Message-ID: <cb40e6.4f1a.1304c5ad59d.Webtop.44@charter.net>

I also went with copper (although my system is a much smaller scale than 
other folks have). My only leak is a crappy air drier that sometimes 
vents on its own.

Tim


On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:

> Best way to say it is that my air system is a bunch of leaks connected 
> together by some pipes.
>
> This talk sure makes me happy I went with copper as the only leaks I 
> have are at the quick disconnect fittings themselves.  I also have a 
> auto-drain on my compressor set to release 1 minute every hour to get 
> rid of water in the tank, it will drain the tank in a about a week 
> anyway if I don't use the compressor, so leaks in the line are not a 
> big deal.
>
>  There has to be some thing available at the plumbing supply stores 
> that is fairly thick and that you put on the threads when you assemble 
> the pipes, you can't be the first person to run into this.  I think 
> the vacuum with epoxy is just too far fetched and too much work.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Jun  1 12:59:08 2011
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 13:59:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <cb40e6.4f1a.1304c5ad59d.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <cb40e6.4f1a.1304c5ad59d.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <415B3E30EAAC4803BF7F208BF0A51438@HP62011>

I'll also add a third vote for copper. My leaks are in the plumbing on the 
tank itself ... the auto drain or ??? ... which I have not been able to 
track down. But the rest of the system is tight right up to the quick 
disconnects.

Arvid

-----Original Message----- 
From: Tim
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 12:57 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues

I also went with copper (although my system is a much smaller scale than
other folks have). My only leak is a crappy air drier that sometimes
vents on its own.

Tim


On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:

> Best way to say it is that my air system is a bunch of leaks connected 
> together by some pipes.
>
> This talk sure makes me happy I went with copper as the only leaks I have 
> are at the quick disconnect fittings themselves.  I also have a auto-drain 
> on my compressor set to release 1 minute every hour to get rid of water in 
> the tank, it will drain the tank in a about a week anyway if I don't use 
> the compressor, so leaks in the line are not a big deal.
>
>  There has to be some thing available at the plumbing supply stores that 
> is fairly thick and that you put on the threads when you assemble the 
> pipes, you can't be the first person to run into this.  I think the vacuum 
> with epoxy is just too far fetched and too much work.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jun  1 13:56:48 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 15:56:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <OF34A11FCD.AAC3C442-ON852578A2.0048361C-852578A2.0048B2CC@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
	<OF34A11FCD.AAC3C442-ON852578A2.0048361C-852578A2.0048B2CC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110601155240.04db49f0@cox.net>

At 08:59 AM 6/1/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote:

 >I understand where you are coming from.  My only problem with it is 
how do they get these
 >things to work in the millions of other installations out there.

Moose,

I understand!!!  As I said in an earlier post, when they plumbed my 
gas logs the plumbing is black
pipe to a propane tank and no leaks!  I thought I used the same pipe 
dope as they did.  At least I
used what a friend of mine said the construction company that he 
works for uses.

 >Yesterday I filled up my propane tank for the fork-lift, I noticed 
that the entire fill station is
 >plumbed with the same exact pipe.  How do they get it to work but I can't?

I think you're not alone!  A lot of us are in the same boat. :)

 >I guess now is the time we can tell that this is a list of old 
British car guys.  No where else would
 >a group of people accept such a failure rate!!!  8>)  (totally kidding!!)

Definately ain't no rice burners, that's for sure. :)

 >BTW, did you here that 98% of all Lucas electronic vehicles are 
still on the road today?  Turns out
 >hat the other 2% made it back home!!!  8>)

Love it!!!!!  I'll have to remember that one.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jun  1 14:03:35 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:03:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DE67B13.7000905@b2systems.com>
References: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
	<4DE67B13.7000905@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110601160145.04d4d8a8@cox.net>

At 01:46 PM 6/1/2011, Mike Rambour wrote:

 >... I also have a auto-drain on my compressor set to release 1 
minute every hour to
 >get rid of water in the tank, it will drain the tank in a about a 
week anyway if I don't
 >use the compressor, so leaks in the line are not a big deal.

Where did you get your auto drain?  I got one for Harbor Freight, but 
it didn't work on
my compressor.  It had to be connected to something (I don't 
remember) and when I
hooked it up, I think it was dumping all the time.  When I tried to 
change how is was
connected, it kept blowing the plastic line.

JohnT
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun  1 14:01:02 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 16:01:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor
Message-ID: <OFC5D4C48F.7357DFFD-ON852578A2.006EF1FB-852578A2.006F4DFC@mail.megageek.com>

When installing the air lines at my shop, I came across one of those HF 
auto drain kits also.  It doesn't work on my compressor either (it's not 
meant for the big boys.)

It will work fine on a smaller, consumer grade ones however.   Here is a 
link to the one I'm selling on ebay...

>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270756661493&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT<

Since I'm shamelessly plugging relevant items, here is a link to my 1/2 
dryer/filter/regulator/oiler as well (new.)

>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270758314966&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT<

In case any of you are in the market for a recirulating pressure blaster, 
I'm selling one of those as well.

>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270756704725&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT<

<shameless plugs over>

Hey, least they are on topic!  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 14:44:53 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 16:44:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110601155240.04db49f0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20110601204453.2A28P.175331.root@cdptpa-web10-z01>

I don't think the pressure in a propane system is very high.


> I understand!!!  As I said in an earlier post, when they plumbed my 
> gas logs the plumbing is black
> pipe to a propane tank and no leaks!  I thought I used the same pipe 
> dope as they did.  At least I
> used what a friend of mine said the construction company that he 
> works for uses.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 15:04:18 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 14:04:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor
In-Reply-To: <OFC5D4C48F.7357DFFD-ON852578A2.006EF1FB-852578A2.006F4DFC@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC5D4C48F.7357DFFD-ON852578A2.006EF1FB-852578A2.006F4DFC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <024c01cc209f$79ea5130$6dbef390$@rr.com>

> It doesn't work on my compressor either (it's
> not meant for the big boys.)

Can you amplify on that a bit, Moose?  I haven't bothered to hook mine up
yet (and I will definitely be upgrading the plastic line), but I don't see
why it wouldn't work for basically any compressor (except perhaps because
the amount it vents is limited).

Provided of course it has an unloader (which is what the small line has to
hook up to).  But I've never seen an electric compressor that didn't have an
unloader.

-- Randall 

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Jun  1 15:46:49 2011
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 16:46:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
Message-ID: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>

The HF drain ... and they are not the only ones to market this particular
type ... hooks to the line that goes to the unloader line on the compressor.

On many compressors there is a mechanism that allows some air to escape ...
a leak by design ...  from the compressor cylinders until everything can get
up to speed. Otherwise the motor might stall if the very first thing it had
to do was a 100% compression stroke before it had a chance to get up some
momentum. Hence the term "unloader".

The unloader line hooks the output of the compressor to the unloader
mechanism and as the pressure builds up ... the unloader only lets a small
portion of the output of the cylinder escape so pressure will eventually
build up in the output after a few seconds ... the unloader determines that
things are on a roll and shuts off, allowing 100% of the cylinders output to
go to the tank.

Note that the unloader line is not hooked up to the tank as then it would
always have tank pressure on it. It is hooked up to the output of the
compressor and before the one way valve between the compressor and the tank.
Therefore when the compressor is not running the unloader line does not have
any pressure in it. You can usually hear the compressor\unloader line going
back to its normal non-pressurized state when the motor turns off. At least
on mine it hisses for about 10 seconds after the motor stops running.

And not all compressor\tank setups have unloaders or exposed unloader lines.

Assuming you have an unloader, then you see that you have a line that will
not have any pressure in it when the compressor is stopped and will have
pressure when the compressor is running. And the auto drain takes advantage
of this by sensing the pressure build up in the unloader line when the
compressor first starts running. For a brief period during the transition it
opens a valve at the bottom of the tank and lets the water out ... or at
least that is the way it is suppose to work. On mine there is a 5 to 10
second hiss when the compressor first starts up as it gets rid of the
moisture in the bottom of the tank.

Sort of neat when you think about it. A totally physical non-electronic only
works when the compressor first starts up auto drain. If the compressor
never runs then there is not need to drain the tank. If it starts and stops
a lot then it drains often. The only case it seems to miss is the "you are
using so much air that the compressor comes on and never stops" ... which
means you could put several hours worth of moisture laden air into the tank
and it would not be drained until the next time it starts. But if that is
the normal run pattern for your compressor you may have other issues to deal
with other than the auto drain.

The auto drain that John had is on an electric timer. You set it for how
often is should drain and how long the valve will be open when it does
drain. I had thought about one of those but my compressor is in my basement
and I did not want the Gear Heads version of a Coo Coo Clock clock hissing
at me every hour on the hour. Had the compressor been somewhere out of
earshot I probably would have gone with the electric version.

Arvid 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun  1 16:27:39 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 17:27:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <OF34A11FCD.AAC3C442-ON852578A2.0048361C-852578A2.0048B2CC@mail.megageek.com>
References: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
	<OF34A11FCD.AAC3C442-ON852578A2.0048361C-852578A2.0048B2CC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=hAsm2raUAWKFUP5TBPgYVyKmZNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:59 AM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> I understand where you are coming from. B My only problem with it is how do
> they get these things to work in the millions of other installations out
> there.
>
> Yesterday I filled up my propane tank for the fork-lift, I noticed that
> the entire fill station is plumbed with the same exact pipe. B How do they
> get it to work but I can't?

Good quality pipe threading and fixtures.  There are lots of shitty
pipe threading machines and dies around.  If the tapers don't match,
the pipe isn't liable to seal.  Rector seal helps, too.






--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 16:59:03 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 15:59:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>
References: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>
Message-ID: <029201cc20af$81e3fe30$85abfa90$@rr.com>

> The only case it seems to miss is the "you
> are
> using so much air that the compressor comes on and never stops" ...

I think it misses another case, perhaps more important, which is where the
tank is hot while the compressor is working and then cools at the end of the
work day.  Water will condense inside the tank as the air cools, and not get
purged until the next time the compressor starts.

But I ran a length of brass pipe from the tank bottom to the drain valve,
which hopefully will not corrode even if it stands full of water for a few
weeks, and will hold enough to allow all of the liquid to drain from the
tank.

-- Randall 

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun  1 18:50:11 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 20:50:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor
In-Reply-To: <024c01cc209f$79ea5130$6dbef390$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <OFB2CB52A8.4758AE73-ON852578A3.00058CF0-852578A3.0005F11E@mail.megageek.com>

The directions say in them "designed for compressors that have poly or 
nylon "unloader" tubing and not for compressors with copper or AL 
unloading tools"

It doesn't say any more than that.  I'm not even going to bother 
installing it on my with a warning like that.  I'm still pulling out what 
hair I have left over installing pipes that ARE meant to work! 8>)

 

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




"Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/01/2011 16:55

To
<shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor






> It doesn't work on my compressor either (it's
> not meant for the big boys.)

Can you amplify on that a bit, Moose?  I haven't bothered to hook mine up
yet (and I will definitely be upgrading the plastic line), but I don't see
why it wouldn't work for basically any compressor (except perhaps because
the amount it vents is limited).

Provided of course it has an unloader (which is what the small line has to
hook up to).  But I've never seen an electric compressor that didn't have 
an
unloader.

-- Randall 
__

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Jun  1 19:35:46 2011
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 20:35:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor
In-Reply-To: <OFB2CB52A8.4758AE73-ON852578A3.00058CF0-852578A3.0005F11E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFB2CB52A8.4758AE73-ON852578A3.00058CF0-852578A3.0005F11E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CC7D15EDD0BF484584D4BA6AE2E88DB8@HP62011>

Interesting, HF no longer seems to have the drain on their web site.

My compressor ... two stage 175 psi 17.9 cfm 80 gallon tank ... came with a 
copper line going to the unloader and a plastic tube going to the original 
auto drain. The plastic tube held up longer than the auto drain ... about 10 
years. I replaced it with the HF auto drain and plastic tubing ... I think 
it was rated for 200 psi or more ... and the HF drain failed shortly 
thereafter. Could be why it is no longer on their web site. Anyway I bought 
another drain from the place I bought the compressor, retained the HF tubing 
and have not had any issues with either the tubing or the non-HF auto drain.

Arvid


-----Original Message----- 
From: eric at megageek.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 7:50 PM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor

The directions say in them "designed for compressors that have poly or
nylon "unloader" tubing and not for compressors with copper or AL
unloading tools"

It doesn't say any more than that.  I'm not even going to bother
installing it on my with a warning like that.  I'm still pulling out what
hair I have left over installing pipes that ARE meant to work! 8>)



Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
Waldo Emerson




"Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/01/2011 16:55

To
<shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor






> It doesn't work on my compressor either (it's
> not meant for the big boys.)

Can you amplify on that a bit, Moose?  I haven't bothered to hook mine up
yet (and I will definitely be upgrading the plastic line), but I don't see
why it wouldn't work for basically any compressor (except perhaps because
the amount it vents is limited).

Provided of course it has an unloader (which is what the small line has to
hook up to).  But I've never seen an electric compressor that didn't have
an
unloader.

-- Randall
__
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From cavanadd at frontier.com  Wed Jun  1 19:44:13 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:44:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>
References: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>
Message-ID: <4DE6EAED.5060809@frontier.com>

Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> The HF drain ... and they are not the only ones to market this particular
> type ... hooks to the line that goes to the unloader line on the
> compressor.

I had one of these on my system for about six months.  Eventually scale 
and crap built up on the guts of the dump valve and it started leaking, 
and I took it off.  Most of the parts are sitting in a can on one of the 
workbenches.  I'll probably eventually put in one of the electric timer 
models, probably when I move the compressor to a shed behind the shop. 
For now I just open the valve on the bottom of the tank when I remember.

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Wed Jun  1 20:04:47 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:04:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DE6EAED.5060809@frontier.com>
References: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>
	<4DE6EAED.5060809@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <4DE6EFBF.9010008@frontier.com>

These guys seem to have about any kind of condensate drain valve you 
would need.

> http://www.ecompressedair.com/drain-valves.aspx

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Jun  1 23:08:58 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 22:08:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DE6EAED.5060809@frontier.com>
References: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>
	<4DE6EAED.5060809@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <22EBBA7700D54322A9658F465FEE3B47@EntCent>

I don't always drain my compressor as frequently as I should, but when I
changed out the anode in my hot water heater, I had to cut off about 6
inches, or cut a hole in the ceiling to get it in the tank.  I dropped that
6 inch section of anode in the horizontal compressor tank, so I think I'll
be OK for a while.

I do have about a foot of pipe coming off the bottom of it, with a drain
valve at the end of the pipe, so I have some condensate storage capacity
too.

You do change out your hot water heater tank anode every 3-5 years and flush
the tank every year or so, if it's bottom gas fired, right?

Jack

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun  2 05:00:23 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 04:00:23 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto drain for compressor
In-Reply-To: <OFB2CB52A8.4758AE73-ON852578A3.00058CF0-852578A3.0005F11E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <024c01cc209f$79ea5130$6dbef390$@rr.com>
	<OFB2CB52A8.4758AE73-ON852578A3.00058CF0-852578A3.0005F11E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <033701cc2114$45e83490$0301a8c0@randall>

> The directions say in them "designed for compressors that 
> have poly or 
> nylon "unloader" tubing and not for compressors with copper or AL 
> unloading tools"

I could be mistaken, but I assume that is only because the tee they give you
is designed for use with poly or nylon.  Or maybe they are worried about
temperature (which is why I plan to use copper instead of the supplied
nylon).  My unloader line connects directly to the compressor head, which
can get hot enough to melt nylon.

But maybe I should put the IR drain valve on the compressor, and use the HF
one for the line to the shop.  So far I've not found any moisture at all in
that line.

-- Randall  

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jun  2 11:00:10 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 13:00:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk]  The air saga ENDS!
In-Reply-To: <01e801cc1f4c$7f329a20$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <OFB55C7514.35A3BAF6-ON852578A3.005E3867-852578A3.005EBEFB@mail.megageek.com>

OK, so I'm patenting my solution for these air lines (however, I'm not 
sure I'm the first person to do it.)

Instead of taking apart all the lines, I decided to go, 'limited tactical 
nuke' on them.

At each connection with a leak, the pipe was cut off, and a union with a 
short nipple was installed.  While this increased the number of joints 
(not what I wanted to do) it affords me the opportunity to remove the bad 
joints and replace thread sealer, tighten pipes, over and over again until 
it is fixed. 

So now, I'm down to a system with only tiniest of leaks (that I can't even 
hear.)  Which leaves me toying with the idea to buy a ultrasonic leak 
detector to find and fix them.  (read>excuse to buy a new tool!)

I found one for about $100 locally here in NJ.

My question is now, is there anyone in the NJ area that would have need 
for one of these?  If so, I may buy it and then I'll help you find your 
leaks as well for free.  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Thu Jun  2 11:46:19 2011
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 10:46:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <22EBBA7700D54322A9658F465FEE3B47@EntCent>
References: <44D67A2F483B4BD4BDC1240224B74300@HP62011>
	<4DE6EAED.5060809@frontier.com>
	<22EBBA7700D54322A9658F465FEE3B47@EntCent>
Message-ID: <146137.53901.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>You do change out your hot water heater tank anode every 3-5 years and flush
>the tank every year or so, if it's bottom gas fired, right?>
>
>Jack


Yes, I do, anyway. I pulled the anode out of my 75 gallon tank when it was five 
years old and it only had a few inches of magnesium left at the bottom of the 
rod. Since it is in a closet, I got a segmented rode that you can "fold" so you 
can put in a full length rod even though you do not have sufficient clearance. 
The basic wisdom is that a rod will last about five years without a water 
softener and only three years with a softener.

I also put a 3/4" ball valve on the drain so that it can really flush the tank 
with some "gusto" (the original small drain valve really would not flow enough 
water to suck up the large decayed rod sediment off from the bottom of the tank. 
The hose on the ball valve now will shoot water and sediment 30 feet into the 
air). :-)

I know the standard information says in order to flush, just drain a few gallons 
out of the tank. What I found works the best is to completely drain the tank by 
flushing it out the 3/4" ball valve, then open the cold water inlet just enough 
to pressurize the tank and put a few inches of water on the bottom of the tank, 
then open the ball valve to flush the few gallons of fresh water off the bottom 
of the tank. By repeating this process multiple times, it removed a great deal 
of sediment off the bottom of the tank that normal draining did not remove (I 
was amazed how much sediment remained in the tank after "normal flushing").

The tank also is much quieter now (no knocking/thudding) when the burner is 
running.

best,

doug

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Jun  2 12:02:33 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 14:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
Message-ID: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>

Here's a question: Where can I get an anode rod? I have not seen them at 
the HomeDespot or the Ace Hardwares I have been in--but often admit to 
being blind. I doubt the Farm&Barn would have them either.

Thanks


On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:46 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:

>> You do change out your hot water heater tank anode every 3-5 years 
>> and flush
>> the tank every year or so, if it's bottom gas fired, right?>
>>
>> Jack
>
>
> Yes, I do, anyway. I pulled the anode out of my 75 gallon tank when it 
> was five years old and it only had a few inches of magnesium left at 
> the bottom of the rod. Since it is in a closet, I got a segmented rode 
> that you can "fold" so you can put in a full length rod even though 
> you do not have sufficient clearance. The basic wisdom is that a rod 
> will last about five years without a water softener and only three 
> years with a softener.
>
> I also put a 3/4" ball valve on the drain so that it can really flush 
> the tank with some "gusto" (the original small drain valve really 
> would not flow enough water to suck up the large decayed rod sediment 
> off from the bottom of the tank. The hose on the ball valve now will 
> shoot water and sediment 30 feet into the air). :-)
>
> I know the standard information says in order to flush, just drain a 
> few gallons out of the tank. What I found works the best is to 
> completely drain the tank by flushing it out the 3/4" ball valve, then 
> open the cold water inlet just enough to pressurize the tank and put a 
> few inches of water on the bottom of the tank, then open the ball 
> valve to flush the few gallons of fresh water off the bottom of the 
> tank. By repeating this process multiple times, it removed a great 
> deal of sediment off the bottom of the tank that normal draining did 
> not remove (I was amazed how much sediment remained in the tank after 
> "normal flushing").
>
> The tank also is much quieter now (no knocking/thudding) when the 
> burner is running.
>
> best,
>
> doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
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> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From marka at maracing.com  Thu Jun  2 12:14:36 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 14:14:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga ENDS!
In-Reply-To: <OFB55C7514.35A3BAF6-ON852578A3.005E3867-852578A3.005EBEFB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFB55C7514.35A3BAF6-ON852578A3.005E3867-852578A3.005EBEFB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106021413010.4582@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

You need help.

I mean that in a good way.  :-)

I appreciate you posting this saga... If/when I ever do this, I'll be 
choosing copper or some other "non-threaded connection" if at all possible 
I think.

I'll be interested to hear if temp. changes affect the leakability.

Mark

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote:

> OK, so I'm patenting my solution for these air lines (however, I'm not
> sure I'm the first person to do it.)
>
> Instead of taking apart all the lines, I decided to go, 'limited tactical
> nuke' on them.
>
> At each connection with a leak, the pipe was cut off, and a union with a
> short nipple was installed.  While this increased the number of joints
> (not what I wanted to do) it affords me the opportunity to remove the bad
> joints and replace thread sealer, tighten pipes, over and over again until
> it is fixed.
>
> So now, I'm down to a system with only tiniest of leaks (that I can't even
> hear.)  Which leaves me toying with the idea to buy a ultrasonic leak
> detector to find and fix them.  (read>excuse to buy a new tool!)
>
> I found one for about $100 locally here in NJ.
>
> My question is now, is there anyone in the NJ area that would have need
> for one of these?  If so, I may buy it and then I'll help you find your
> leaks as well for free.  8>)
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Thu Jun  2 12:41:01 2011
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 11:41:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Tim,

I order mine online:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Flex-Hex-Zinc-Anode.html


Mine looked like the "before rod" in that picture. I imagine any plumbing supply 
store would have them as well.

Here is another one that is cheaper if you want to go with aluminum. I think 
they are fine as long as you are not drinking the hot water:

http://www.plumbingstore.com/sacrificial_rods.html 
best,


doug






________________________________
From: Tim <tputland at charter.net>
To: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
Cc: Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net>; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 11:02:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

Here's a question: Where can I get an anode rod? I have not seen them at the 
HomeDespot or the Ace Hardwares I have been in--but often admit to being blind. 
I doubt the Farm&Barn would have them either.

Thanks


On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:46 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:

>> You do change out your hot water heater tank anode every 3-5 years and flush
>> the tank every year or so, if it's bottom gas fired, right?>
>> 
>> Jack
> 
> 
> Yes, I do, anyway. I pulled the anode out of my 75 gallon tank when it was five 
>years old and it only had a few inches of magnesium left at the bottom of the 
>rod. Since it is in a closet, I got a segmented rode that you can "fold" so you 
>can put in a full length rod even though you do not have sufficient clearance. 
>The basic wisdom is that a rod will last about five years without a water 
>softener and only three years with a softener.
> 
> I also put a 3/4" ball valve on the drain so that it can really flush the tank 
>with some "gusto" (the original small drain valve really would not flow enough 
>water to suck up the large decayed rod sediment off from the bottom of the tank. 
>The hose on the ball valve now will shoot water and sediment 30 feet into the 
>air). :-)
> 
> I know the standard information says in order to flush, just drain a few 
>gallons out of the tank. What I found works the best is to completely drain the 
>tank by flushing it out the 3/4" ball valve, then open the cold water inlet just 
>enough to pressurize the tank and put a few inches of water on the bottom of the 
>tank, then open the ball valve to flush the few gallons of fresh water off the 
>bottom of the tank. By repeating this process multiple times, it removed a great 
>deal of sediment off the bottom of the tank that normal draining did not remove 
>(I was amazed how much sediment remained in the tank after "normal flushing").
> 
> The tank also is much quieter now (no knocking/thudding) when the burner is 
>running.
> 
> best,
> 
> doug
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Thu Jun  2 12:58:11 2011
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <846272.99767.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Actually I included the wrong link for when I said mine looked the before 
picture. This is what I had intended to show:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/what-kills-water-heaters.html


It was almost entirely bare wire after five years with no water softener).

This particular site has some good information about maintaining water heaters 
in general:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/

 best,


doug





________________________________
From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
To: Tim <tputland at charter.net>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 11:41:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

Hi Tim,

I order mine online:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Flex-Hex-Zinc-Anode.html



Mine looked like the "before rod" in that picture. I imagine any plumbing supply 

store would have them as well.

Here is another one that is cheaper if you want to go with aluminum. I think 
they are fine as long as you are not drinking the hot water:

http://www.plumbingstore.com/sacrificial_rods.html 
best,


doug






________________________________
From: Tim <tputland at charter.net>
To: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
Cc: Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net>; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 11:02:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

Here's a question: Where can I get an anode rod? I have not seen them at the 
HomeDespot or the Ace Hardwares I have been in--but often admit to being blind. 
I doubt the Farm&Barn would have them either.

Thanks


On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:46 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:

>> You do change out your hot water heater tank anode every 3-5 years and flush
>> the tank every year or so, if it's bottom gas fired, right?>
>> 
>> Jack
> 
> 
> Yes, I do, anyway. I pulled the anode out of my 75 gallon tank when it was five 
>
>years old and it only had a few inches of magnesium left at the bottom of the 
>rod. Since it is in a closet, I got a segmented rode that you can "fold" so you 

>can put in a full length rod even though you do not have sufficient clearance. 
>The basic wisdom is that a rod will last about five years without a water 
>softener and only three years with a softener.
> 
> I also put a 3/4" ball valve on the drain so that it can really flush the tank 

>with some "gusto" (the original small drain valve really would not flow enough 
>water to suck up the large decayed rod sediment off from the bottom of the tank. 
>
>The hose on the ball valve now will shoot water and sediment 30 feet into the 
>air). :-)
> 
> I know the standard information says in order to flush, just drain a few 
>gallons out of the tank. What I found works the best is to completely drain the 

>tank by flushing it out the 3/4" ball valve, then open the cold water inlet just 
>
>enough to pressurize the tank and put a few inches of water on the bottom of the 
>
>tank, then open the ball valve to flush the few gallons of fresh water off the 
>bottom of the tank. By repeating this process multiple times, it removed a great 
>
>deal of sediment off the bottom of the tank that normal draining did not remove 

>(I was amazed how much sediment remained in the tank after "normal flushing").
> 
> The tank also is much quieter now (no knocking/thudding) when the burner is 
>running.
> 
> best,
> 
> doug
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at pacbell.net

From mikey at b2systems.com  Thu Jun  2 13:06:02 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 12:06:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110601160145.04d4d8a8@cox.net>
References: <F6BA52C6C675495E826A32E943F4FA57@OwnerPC>
	<4DE67B13.7000905@b2systems.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110601160145.04d4d8a8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4DE7DF1A.9080301@b2systems.com>

http://www.tptools.com/Product.aspx?display_id=2710

  I like it, it works great, I notice they changed the timing on the 
thing, seems like 45 minutes is the max off time now.

   Mike

On 06/01/2011 01:03 PM, John T. Blair wrote:
> At 01:46 PM 6/1/2011, Mike Rambour wrote:
>
> >... I also have a auto-drain on my compressor set to release 1 minute 
> every hour to
> >get rid of water in the tank, it will drain the tank in a about a 
> week anyway if I don't
> >use the compressor, so leaks in the line are not a big deal.
>
> Where did you get your auto drain?  I got one for Harbor Freight, but 
> it didn't work on
> my compressor.  It had to be connected to something (I don't remember) 
> and when I
> hooked it up, I think it was dumping all the time.  When I tried to 
> change how is was
> connected, it kept blowing the plastic line.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Jun  2 13:50:10 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 15:50:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>

On 6/2/2011 2:02 PM, Tim wrote:
> Here's a question: Where can I get an anode rod? I have not seen them at
> the HomeDespot or the Ace Hardwares I have been in--but often admit to

I ordered one from the appliance parts section at Sears.com (there's 
more for your f***** life at Sears!! as Tim Allen used to say back in 
his less than squeaky clean days)  Think it was about $18.  You need a 
large socket for one;  1 1/16" or 27mm seems common.

I checked the local big boxen and plumbing suppliers and got funny looks 
like "No, why would you mess with that!?  Just replace the whole tank 
every 8 years."

This web site has lots of good info.  And they sell parts, if you don't 
mind paying seriously high prices for their convenience factor:
http://www.WaterHeaterRescue.com/

-Wayne

From shop at shariconglobal.com  Thu Jun  2 14:01:13 2011
From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:01:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <1C7BA105485C437A9EB5342AF48D9297@Tablet>

Wayne wrote: 
> I checked the local big boxen and plumbing suppliers and got 
> funny looks like "No, why would you mess with that!?  Just 
> replace the whole tank every 8 years."

Sigh.  Everything's disposable nowadays, including things that really
shouldn't be.  :-(

From mogpls8 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  2 14:48:19 2011
From: mogpls8 at gmail.com (GaryK)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:48:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <000e01cc2166$68235ab0$386a1010$@gmail.com>

How do you loosen the old anode rod?  I tried it a couple of times and it
was soooooo tight I couldn't budge it.  
Gary K.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:50 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

On 6/2/2011 2:02 PM, Tim wrote:
> Here's a question: Where can I get an anode rod? I have not seen them 
> at the HomeDespot or the Ace Hardwares I have been in--but often admit 
> to

I ordered one from the appliance parts section at Sears.com (there's more
for your f***** life at Sears!! as Tim Allen used to say back in his less
than squeaky clean days)  Think it was about $18.  You need a large socket
for one;  1 1/16" or 27mm seems common.

I checked the local big boxen and plumbing suppliers and got funny looks
like "No, why would you mess with that!?  Just replace the whole tank every
8 years."

This web site has lots of good info.  And they sell parts, if you don't mind
paying seriously high prices for their convenience factor:
http://www.WaterHeaterRescue.com/

-Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jun  2 16:06:24 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:06:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <000e01cc2166$68235ab0$386a1010$@gmail.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>
	<000e01cc2166$68235ab0$386a1010$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinHu8hXgL5RPc=zRRLpzkruY3T1=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 3:48 PM, GaryK <mogpls8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> How do you loosen the old anode rod? B I tried it a couple of times and it
> was soooooo tight I couldn't budge it.

First, you build a time machine.
Then, you go back in time, and install the anode rod with anti-seize.
Then, you go back to the future, and your all set.



> Gary K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:50 PM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
>
> On 6/2/2011 2:02 PM, Tim wrote:
>> Here's a question: Where can I get an anode rod? I have not seen them
>> at the HomeDespot or the Ace Hardwares I have been in--but often admit
>> to
>
> I ordered one from the appliance parts section at Sears.com (there's more
> for your f***** life at Sears!! as Tim Allen used to say back in his less
> than squeaky clean days) B Think it was about $18. B You need a large
socket
> for one; B 1 1/16" or 27mm seems common.
>
> I checked the local big boxen and plumbing suppliers and got funny looks
> like "No, why would you mess with that!? B Just replace the whole tank
every
> 8 years."
>
> This web site has lots of good info. B And they sell parts, if you don't
mind
> paying seriously high prices for their convenience factor:
> http://www.WaterHeaterRescue.com/
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation B $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Jun  2 16:17:51 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 18:17:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinHu8hXgL5RPc=zRRLpzkruY3T1=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>
	<000e01cc2166$68235ab0$386a1010$@gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinHu8hXgL5RPc=zRRLpzkruY3T1=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DE80C0F.1090102@xxiii.com>

>> How do you loosen the old anode rod? B I tried it a couple of times and it
>> was soooooo tight I couldn't budge it.
>
> First, you build a time machine.
> Then, you go back in time, and install the anode rod with anti-seize.
> Then, you go back to the future, and your all set.

HOPING that is not the case.  I bought the anode a couple months ago and 
procured the big socket last week.  Figuring between breaker-bar and 
impact wrench something will get it.

-w

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun  2 17:11:37 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:11:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
Message-ID: <044e01cc217a$6d669d70$4833d850$@rr.com>

> Here's a question: Where can I get an anode rod?

Google turned up lots of places, including True Value Hardware and Amazon.

-- Randall 

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Jun  2 18:27:58 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:27:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <846272.99767.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net><790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<846272.99767.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <047D35EAA29E4139A6F91BEAC0036354@EntCent>

Anodes:  Just be sure that your anode is a simple bolt type.  My
Bradford-White anode is integrated into the hot water outlet pipe.  The
manufacturer got me to a mail order supply house that was reasonably priced.

Yeah, as Doug stated, really flush that sucker.  Remove the existing valve
or replace it for the flush.

www.Waterheaterrescue.com was a very informative site.

Your local, non-big box store will have anodes and they will have
thermocouples for your gas fired devices too.

Jack

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  2 20:37:40 2011
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 21:37:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <047D35EAA29E4139A6F91BEAC0036354@EntCent>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net><790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<846272.99767.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<047D35EAA29E4139A6F91BEAC0036354@EntCent>
Message-ID: <SNT123-w30085317C0253D6B798DAFE17F0@phx.gbl>

I have a coulda woulda shoulda question.

Our water heater is original to the house, which makes it about eighteen years
old and we have a water softener.
It has NEVER had anything done to it.  Do I let sleeping dogs lie or try to
flush it etc?
I'm worried that the sediment is the only thing keeping it together.

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Jun  2 20:58:25 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 22:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
Message-ID: <3c8704f8.16580.130536ffa75.Webtop.48@charter.net>

Ain't that the truth!


On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Aric wrote:

>
> Sigh.  Everything's disposable nowadays, including things that really
> shouldn't be.  :-(
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Thu Jun  2 21:04:03 2011
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 20:04:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-w30085317C0253D6B798DAFE17F0@phx.gbl>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net><790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<846272.99767.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<047D35EAA29E4139A6F91BEAC0036354@EntCent>
	<SNT123-w30085317C0253D6B798DAFE17F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <591826.33327.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Rich,

Very impressive, indeed...

I think I would go with the sleeping dogs approach unless your gas bill is very 
high. I would think you must have several inches of sediment in the bottom of 
the tank that would be insulating the water from the flame. I doubt that if you 
open the drain valve that any water would come out anyway and you may not be 
able to close it.

I would think that if you did anything to disturb the TP valve, etc., you will 
end up with leaks and problems there as well.

I would consider myself blessed and just keep a eye on it. 

Is it outdoors or in a basement? If it is in a basement, I would be worried 
about leaving for a vacation without turning off the water and the gas to it.

If it is outdoors, I would just wait for it to fail (as long as I was not going 
away for a week vacation or something).

You got a good one...
 best,


doug
____________________






________________________________
From: Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com>
To: shop-talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 7:37:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

I have a coulda woulda shoulda question.

Our water heater is original to the house, which makes it about eighteen years
old and we have a water softener.
It has NEVER had anything done to it.  Do I let sleeping dogs lie or try to
flush it etc?
I'm worried that the sediment is the only thing keeping it together.

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at pacbell.net

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Jun  2 21:27:11 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 20:27:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <591826.33327.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net><790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<846272.99767.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<047D35EAA29E4139A6F91BEAC0036354@EntCent><SNT123-w30085317C0253D6B798DAFE17F0@phx.gbl>
	<591826.33327.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4DEC39BD36BE467292BC6902E3693A6E@EntCent>

I agree.  Don't stress that sucker.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of old dirtbeard
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:04 PM
To: Rich White; shop-talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

Rich,

Very impressive, indeed...

I think I would go with the sleeping dogs approach unless your gas bill is
very 
high. I would think you must have several inches of sediment in the bottom
of 
the tank that would be insulating the water from the flame. I doubt that if
you 
open the drain valve that any water would come out anyway and you may not be

able to close it.

I would think that if you did anything to disturb the TP valve, etc., you
will 
end up with leaks and problems there as well.

I would consider myself blessed and just keep a eye on it. 

Is it outdoors or in a basement? If it is in a basement, I would be worried 
about leaving for a vacation without turning off the water and the gas to
it.

If it is outdoors, I would just wait for it to fail (as long as I was not
going 
away for a week vacation or something).

You got a good one...
 best,


doug
____________________






________________________________
From: Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com>
To: shop-talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 7:37:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

I have a coulda woulda shoulda question.

Our water heater is original to the house, which makes it about eighteen
years
old and we have a water softener.
It has NEVER had anything done to it.  Do I let sleeping dogs lie or try to
flush it etc?
I'm worried that the sediment is the only thing keeping it together.

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun  3 10:42:45 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 09:42:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-w30085317C0253D6B798DAFE17F0@phx.gbl>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net><790374.81097.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<846272.99767.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<047D35EAA29E4139A6F91BEAC0036354@EntCent>
	<SNT123-w30085317C0253D6B798DAFE17F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <055f01cc220d$4c26c430$e4744c90$@rr.com>

My opinion, I'd flush it anyway, if the valve will move easily.  Went
through something similar with my last house, and flushing didn't seem to
hurt anything.  And it did seem to help the noise (although not eliminate it
entirely).

The tank started to leak a few years later, but the leak was at the top.  It
literally was spraying up the vent, so the first place I saw water was
dripping off the roof!

-- Randall 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Jun  3 13:13:49 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 14:13:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lubrication for right angle gear box
Message-ID: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>

I've got a small 15:1 right angle gearbox on an engine stand I'm building...
right now it's dry but before long I need to put some slippery stuff inside
it.   this is a low torque, one RPM a day operation (if that)  what would you
recommend for lube.   90 WT gear oil... Wheel bearing grease ??   picture of
the box is in this article

http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/enginestand/BDES.html

thanks
John

From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Jun  3 14:28:22 2011
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 16:28:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] lubrication for right angle gear box
In-Reply-To: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>
References: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinr39LswWRaRoJdLBEBE-m=ELN5_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 3:13 PM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
> before long I need to put some slippery stuff inside

Nice.

I'd just use regular grease gun grease.  It won't drip like oil...do
you have a cover/shield for the bearing?

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun  3 14:36:27 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 13:36:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] lubrication for right angle gear box
In-Reply-To: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>
References: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <05ca01cc222d$ea531d50$bef957f0$@rr.com>

Looks like it would be extra hassle to seal those shafts to hold oil, and
your usage sounds very modest, so I'd probably just use grease.  Even
ordinary grease gun grease should do fine.

But don't forget that no matter how good your bearings are, if the engine's
center of mass is not on the bearing axis, the gear drive will have to lift
some portion of the weight of the motor.

That's been my biggest complaint with the cheap engines stands.  The arms
force the stand pivot to be roughly in-line with the main journals, which
puts most of the weight of the block and head off to one side.

-- Randall 

From darrellw at ipns.com  Fri Jun  3 15:38:25 2011
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 14:38:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] lubrication for right angle gear box
In-Reply-To: <05ca01cc222d$ea531d50$bef957f0$@rr.com>
References: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>
	<05ca01cc222d$ea531d50$bef957f0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <C13932AE-4E1A-4F22-8A18-845DB82A2134@ipns.com>

On Jun 3, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Randall wrote:

> That's been my biggest complaint with the cheap engines stands.  The arms
> force the stand pivot to be roughly in-line with the main journals, which
> puts most of the weight of the block and head off to one side.

Yes, the first time I had my 4A engine block on a stand I didn't think too
much about the weight.  When to turn it over and nearly tipped the whole thing
over when it swung around....

--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

From jmitch at snet.net  Fri Jun  3 17:02:28 2011
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 19:02:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
Message-ID: <4DE96804.5050900@snet.net>

     I'm planning on having my 550 gallon underground oil tank pulled 
out as it's 20 years old and I'd like to replace it with an above ground 
tank which would go under my deck.  I live in Connecticut, and I'm 
wondering if it would need to be insulated to keep the oil flowing?  
I've also read about combination tanks, which are plastic surrounded by 
a metal shell.  Anyone have experience with above ground tanks?  I'd 
really hate to waste interior space on a tank if I don't have to.   John 
Mitchell

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun  3 17:46:26 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 18:46:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd:  lubrication for right angle gear box
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinJh4ME1WdBwsequpKSu-SCue-daw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>
	<BANLkTinJh4ME1WdBwsequpKSu-SCue-daw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikYL4KXTY0K_SoMn=-S8FupA7_iAw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark <eltonclark at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] lubrication for right angle gear box
To: john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com>


*NO! WAIT!  You've built the most magnificent*
*engine stand in the universe and it deserves*
*something special in the gearbox. *

*Hie thee to an industrial supplies store in your town and buy a
"Lubriplate" product.*
**
http://www.lubriplate.com/


*They have sqeeze-tube white lubes that would be the exalted equal of your
classic*
*heirloom hand-down engine stand and you must accept nothing less.*
**
*(Gawd, I love "over-kill" and I do it ever chance I get!)*
**
*Tony in Texas *



 On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 2:13 PM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:

> I've got a small 15:1 right angle gearbox on an engine stand I'm
> building...
> right now it's dry but before long I need to put some slippery stuff inside
> it.   this is a low torque, one RPM a day operation (if that)  what would
> you
> recommend for lube.   90 WT gear oil... Wheel bearing grease ??   picture
> of
> the box is in this article
>
> http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/enginestand/BDES.html
>
> thanks
> John
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Fri Jun  3 18:44:54 2011
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 20:44:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <4DE96804.5050900@snet.net>
References: <4DE96804.5050900@snet.net>
Message-ID: <4DE98006.1070601@comcast.net>

On 6/3/2011 7:02 PM, John Mitchell wrote:
>     I'm planning on having my 550 gallon underground oil tank pulled 
> out as it's 20 years old and I'd like to replace it with an above 
> ground tank which would go under my deck.  I live in Connecticut, and 
> I'm wondering if it would need to be insulated to keep the oil 
> flowing?  I've also read about combination tanks, which are plastic 
> surrounded by a metal shell.  Anyone have experience with above ground 
> tanks?  I'd really hate to waste interior space on a tank if I don't 
> have to.   John Mitchell

I'm in CT also with my tank in an unheated basement garage.  It gets as 
cold as outside.  Well, not quite as cold as night and not as warm as 
the day, but cold.  Water freezes.  All oil is delivered with an antigel 
additive and I've never had a problem.

I'd recommend a lined tank.

Peter T.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Sat Jun  4 13:57:49 2011
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 15:57:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <4DE98006.1070601@comcast.net>
References: <4DE96804.5050900@snet.net> <4DE98006.1070601@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MTAwMDAzNC5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1307217476@quikprotect>

We just had our underground oil tank replaced with an above-ground oil tank
(as a part of buying the property).  The oil service company (Crown in NJ),
noted that the oil already has antifreeze and rust inhibitor in it.  As
Peter just mentioned, check with your oil supplier.  

On a related note, the tank insurance policy required written notice prior
to changing tanks (and paying a fee); otherwise the insurance would not
cover leaks that were discovered in the process.  This was an important
nuance since the tank was indeed leaking and the remediation costs add-up
quickly.

- Ian

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun  4 15:03:56 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 17:03:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <4DE96804.5050900@snet.net>
Message-ID: <OFAF5FEF83.EA9EC453-ON852578A5.0074E763-852578A5.0075103A@mail.megageek.com>

I am in the middle of this process right now (western NJ.)  When I asked 
back here, it was clear that inside was better.  Now that they are 
installed, I'm very happy with it.

New tanks installed (2X 360gals in basement) and Tues they pull the old 
tank.  Wish me luck!

I have insurance, but I'm still worried.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




John Mitchell <jmitch at snet.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/03/2011 18:44

To
shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks






     I'm planning on having my 550 gallon underground oil tank pulled 
out as it's 20 years old and I'd like to replace it with an above ground 
tank which would go under my deck.  I live in Connecticut, and I'm 
wondering if it would need to be insulated to keep the oil flowing? 
I've also read about combination tanks, which are plastic surrounded by 
a metal shell.  Anyone have experience with above ground tanks?  I'd 
really hate to waste interior space on a tank if I don't have to.   John 
Mitchell
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sat Jun  4 15:45:00 2011
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 17:45:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <OFAF5FEF83.EA9EC453-ON852578A5.0074E763-852578A5.0075103A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4DE96804.5050900@snet.net>
	<OFAF5FEF83.EA9EC453-ON852578A5.0074E763-852578A5.0075103A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikt0tPDrnb_8N5CZbJGXgXaUAci3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 5:03 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> New tanks installed (2X 360gals in basement) and Tues they pull the old
> tank.  Wish me luck!
>
> I have insurance, but I'm still worried.

I'd be more worried about how to be able to afford 720 gallons of
oil...how long does that last?

When I was a kid growing up in Florida, we had an above-ground tank,
that was maybe 100 gallons.  Now the house at Corrosion Acres is total
electric, with a fireplace for backup.  But it's a lot milder in the
winter here, I reckon.

Jeff Scarbrough
Zzap! Acres, Ga.

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun  4 18:21:13 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 20:21:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikt0tPDrnb_8N5CZbJGXgXaUAci3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFE536CC78.40312F5C-ON852578A6.00031AAD-852578A6.00034A3C@mail.megageek.com>

Actually, I would have put 3 of the tanks in if I could have.  I have a 
1000 gal inground that is getting replaced.  I loved it, normally I would 
fill it up once in Aug (when oil was cheapest) and it could get me through 
the year, with maybe a small refill somewhere in march.

The more oil you can store, means you can buy it when it's cheapest.



Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Jeff Scarbrough <fishplate at gmail.com> 
06/04/2011 17:26

To
eric at megageek.com
cc
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks






On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 5:03 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> New tanks installed (2X 360gals in basement) and Tues they pull the old
> tank.  Wish me luck!
>
> I have insurance, but I'm still worried.

I'd be more worried about how to be able to afford 720 gallons of
oil...how long does that last?

When I was a kid growing up in Florida, we had an above-ground tank,
that was maybe 100 gallons.  Now the house at Corrosion Acres is total
electric, with a fireplace for backup.  But it's a lot milder in the
winter here, I reckon.

Jeff Scarbrough
Zzap! Acres, Ga.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Jun  5 14:12:15 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 15:12:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] The air saga ENDS!
In-Reply-To: <OFB55C7514.35A3BAF6-ON852578A3.005E3867-852578A3.005EBEFB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFB55C7514.35A3BAF6-ON852578A3.005E3867-852578A3.005EBEFB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DEBE31F.1060106@tx.rr.com>

I was visiting my dad these past few days so I asked him about his air 
system.  He had to rebuild his shop about 30 years ago so of course he 
installed a new air system at the time.  He said he didn't have any 
problems with leaks, so I guess that means it is possible to have 
threaded pipe and get it to work reasonably well.  He has quite a few 
outlets and everywhere you plug a hose in seems to leak a little bit.

He has a big 2-cylinder compressor (2-stage?) with a big electric motor 
about the size of a beer keg.  His tank looks like it is 100-150 
gallons.  He turns the compressor off at night, then they turn it back 
on the next morning.  They run the pressure at 150-175 psi.  At 10 Fri. 
morning they had not turned the compressor back on, so 16 hours 
overnight the tank had leaked down to 75 psi.  We turned the compressor 
back on and it took 6 minutes to pump from 75 psi to 175 psi.



> OK, so I'm patenting my solution for these air lines (however, I'm not
> sure I'm the first person to do it.)

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Jun  5 14:21:35 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 15:21:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <1C7BA105485C437A9EB5342AF48D9297@Tablet>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com> <1C7BA105485C437A9EB5342AF48D9297@Tablet>
Message-ID: <4DEBE54F.7040006@tx.rr.com>

I've had to replace my share, and I think they should last longer too.

The problem is not so much the cost of the replacement water heater, 
they seem to be cheap enough at HomeDepot.  The problem is that you have 
to get a licensed plumber and a city permit in order to replace one, and 
the replacement labor costs twice what the water heater costs.  I'm 
suspicious that the local plumbers have conspired to set a uniform rate 
for replacement.  I've had a variety of plumbing work done over the 
years, all charged at an hourly rate.  I've had 3 water heaters 
replaced, and this work seemed to be billed at 2 or 3 times their hourly 
rate.

The last water heater I had replaced, the plumber said he used to be an 
aircraft mechanic but he made a lot more as a plumber.  I don't know 
much about aircraft mechanics but something in this seems backwards to me.

>> I checked the local big boxen and plumbing suppliers and got
>> funny looks like "No, why would you mess with that!?  Just
>> replace the whole tank every 8 years."
> Sigh.  Everything's disposable nowadays, including things that really
> shouldn't be.  :-(

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 15:45:33 2011
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 17:45:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DEBE54F.7040006@tx.rr.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com> <1C7BA105485C437A9EB5342AF48D9297@Tablet>
	<4DEBE54F.7040006@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4DEBF8FD.5030307@gmail.com>

I'd love to know if the areas like yours where they require licensed 
professionals with permits to do work like this have a lower rate of 
fires and other safety related incidents than areas like where I am 
where if there are rules like this they are not enforced.  If there's 
not evidence that the licensing/permitting requirements save lives or 
dollars then there's a case to lobby local officials to change the 
rules.  At that point I'm guessing the local trade associations would 
start making lots of noise.

Seems like if there were overwhelming evidence that licensing/permitting 
requirements saved lives or dollars every state/locality would enforce 
it and insurance companies would be lobbying for it as well.  My 
experience with hiring "professionals" for this type of work is that 
about 3 out of 4 times they don't do it as well as if I had done it 
myself.  My last experience was the "professional" who installed our new 
dishwasher two years ago.  A few weeks ago the plastic hot water line he 
installed blew out of the fitting and flooded the kitchen and basement.  
When I read the installation manual it said use of plastic compression 
fittings was not recommended.  It called for copper or braided line with 
screw on fittings.  I followed the instructions.....

Anyway, with what I saw the anode rods cost I will continue to make the 
decision to just replace the whole unit every so many years.  My last 
one lasted 14 years.  It takes about an hour to replace it and the last 
one I bought was under $300.  If I lived in your area I might make a 
different decision though.

Ben.....


Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at gmail.com
Columbus, IN
1966 Triumph TR4A
1973 MG Midget
1980 Triumph TR8
2007 Mazda RX8
2002 Yamaha FZ1
2003 Honda ST1300


On 6/5/2011 4:21 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:
> I've had to replace my share, and I think they should last longer too.
>
> The problem is not so much the cost of the replacement water heater, 
> they seem to be cheap enough at HomeDepot.  The problem is that you 
> have to get a licensed plumber and a city permit in order to replace 
> one, and the replacement labor costs twice what the water heater 
> costs.  I'm suspicious that the local plumbers have conspired to set a 
> uniform rate for replacement.  I've had a variety of plumbing work 
> done over the years, all charged at an hourly rate.  I've had 3 water 
> heaters replaced, and this work seemed to be billed at 2 or 3 times 
> their hourly rate.
>
> The last water heater I had replaced, the plumber said he used to be 
> an aircraft mechanic but he made a lot more as a plumber.  I don't 
> know much about aircraft mechanics but something in this seems 
> backwards to me.
>
>>> I checked the local big boxen and plumbing suppliers and got
>>> funny looks like "No, why would you mess with that!?  Just
>>> replace the whole tank every 8 years."
>> Sigh.  Everything's disposable nowadays, including things that really
>> shouldn't be.  :-(
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com

From fishplate at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 15:47:04 2011
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:47:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DEBE54F.7040006@tx.rr.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com> <1C7BA105485C437A9EB5342AF48D9297@Tablet>
	<4DEBE54F.7040006@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikadhM7kq6kk+0pZtQp+okBYQeMKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:21 PM, BJNoSHOV8 <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:
>  The problem is that you have to get a licensed plumber and a city permit
in
> order to replace one

They have that sign up in our local big box store.  I've never had any
trouble ignoring it.

Anonymous
Basement Puddle, Ga.

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jun  5 16:23:48 2011
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 15:23:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikadhM7kq6kk+0pZtQp+okBYQeMKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net>
	<4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com> <1C7BA105485C437A9EB5342AF48D9297@Tablet>
	<4DEBE54F.7040006@tx.rr.com>
	<BANLkTikadhM7kq6kk+0pZtQp+okBYQeMKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1c0ou6hrpu99db02vf3oklobbvl8r9kjep@4ax.com>

This winter when the inspector came out to inspect the installation he
told me that I really did not need either a permit or the inspection.

-Rube
Grinder Switch, California

On Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:47:04 -0400, you wrote:

::On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:21 PM, BJNoSHOV8 <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:
::>  The problem is that you have to get a licensed plumber and a city permit
::in
::> order to replace one
::
::They have that sign up in our local big box store.  I've never had any
::trouble ignoring it.
::
::Anonymous
::Basement Puddle, Ga.

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun  5 16:51:11 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 15:51:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DEBF8FD.5030307@gmail.com>
References: <22911b19.f784.13051855fcd.Webtop.49@charter.net><4DE7E972.6020707@xxiii.com>
	<1C7BA105485C437A9EB5342AF48D9297@Tablet><4DEBE54F.7040006@tx.rr.com>
	<4DEBF8FD.5030307@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006f01cc23d3$1180b120$0301a8c0@randall>

> I'd love to know if the areas like yours where they require licensed 
> professionals with permits

I can't say one way or the other.  But the "professionals" around here do
lousy jobs.  The building at work had an electric water heater mounted in
the ceiling, with no drain provision for the TPR valve.  When the thermostat
failed closed, it started spraying hot water down over the office area.
Since then I've been kind of checking, no more than 1 in 10 installations
has any drain provisions, and most of them don't even have a down-tube.

My first house was a bank repo; for some reason the previous tenants had
ripped the bathroom sink off of the wall.  I asked for a city inspection
before agreeing to buy, and one of the things he mentioned was that I would
have to get a permit to connect the sink.  I never took out a permit for any
of the work (including a new hot water heater), and they had forgotten all
about it by the time we sold the place.

-- Randall  

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun  5 20:25:40 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:25:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DEBF8FD.5030307@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>

Ben writes...

> It takes about an hour to replace it and the last 
>one I bought was under $300. 

My motivation for just replacing the unit every ten or fifteen years or so 
is that the technology to make them more efficiency is also increasing 
with each replacement.  Sure, the old ones are built like tanks, but the 
new ones use a fraction of the energy.  That is a net gain in my book.

BTW, I'm also in the process of installing a total house solar system. 
Should be done this week.  Once I gauge how well it works, I'm going to 
convert my two gas water heaters to electric (maybe.)  I'd love to get rid 
of the gas systems on my outbuildings (one for the guest house and one for 
another building.)

We'll see how it goes.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sun Jun  5 21:13:59 2011
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <13379.66265.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

________________________________
From: "eric at megageek.com" <eric at megageek.com>
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Sent: Sun, June 5, 2011 7:25:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

Ben writes...

>> It takes about an hour to replace it and the last 
>>one I bought was under $300. 

>My motivation for just replacing the unit every ten or fifteen years or so 
>is that the technology to make them more efficiency is also increasing 
>with each replacement.  Sure, the old ones are built like tanks, but the 
>new ones use a fraction of the energy.  That is a net gain in my book.

Although there is some increasing efficiency for water heaters (flue capture, 
better insulation, etc.), it is not huge. Gas water heaters are a mature 
technology and have been regulated/mandated for sometime. You also need to think 
about the energy/materials/landfill required to create, transport and dispose of 
the replacement tank.

>BTW, I'm also in the process of installing a total house solar system. 
>Should be done this week.  Once I gauge how well it works, I'm going to 
>convert my two gas water heaters to electric (maybe.)  I'd love to get rid 
>of the gas systems on my outbuildings (one for the guest house and one for 
>another building.)

>We'll see how it goes.


I converted my house to photovoltaic (6kWh array) a little over five years ago 
and we now generate a surplus (Edison now sends us checks). You would be further 
ahead to continue to use gas to heat water rather than use PV to do it (I still 
have a gas fired water heater and furnace even though I run a surplus on 
electricity). Using electricity to create heat generally will be more expensive 
than using gas to generate heat regardless of the source of the electricity.

best,

doug

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Jun  5 21:19:03 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 20:19:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4DEBF8FD.5030307@gmail.com>
	<OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <374E460BED8E4D3E974D3DDDA1A37A4B@EntCent>

I don't know that gas fired water heater technology is allowing the new
heaters to use a fraction of the energy.  They are pretty low tech.  

I agree on other technologies can do this.  We just upgraded our old 80% gas
furnace to a high efficiency heat pump, with another 80% gas furnace as back
up.  I chose the low efficiency gas furnace because in Seattle, the heat
pump runs fine almost all the time.  The gas furnace rarely fired except
during one or two cold snaps, so the extra cost to go to higher efficiency
(cost + new flue, etc.) did not make sense.

I still think changing out anodes and flushing tanks makes sense, until
better technology comes along.  Simply flushing your tank every year or so
will increases your gas fired tank efficiency, as it removes the insulating
layer of crud from the bottom of the tank.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 7:26 PM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

Ben writes...

> It takes about an hour to replace it and the last 
>one I bought was under $300. 

My motivation for just replacing the unit every ten or fifteen years or so 
is that the technology to make them more efficiency is also increasing 
with each replacement.  Sure, the old ones are built like tanks, but the 
new ones use a fraction of the energy.  That is a net gain in my book.

BTW, I'm also in the process of installing a total house solar system. 
Should be done this week.  Once I gauge how well it works, I'm going to 
convert my two gas water heaters to electric (maybe.)  I'd love to get rid 
of the gas systems on my outbuildings (one for the guest house and one for 
another building.)

We'll see how it goes.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun  5 22:01:28 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 21:01:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4DEBF8FD.5030307@gmail.com>
	<OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <00d801cc23fe$69f5bf00$0301a8c0@randall>

> Once I gauge how well it works, 
> I'm going to 
> convert my two gas water heaters to electric (maybe.) 

I must've missed something.  If you have natural gas service, why do you
need a 1000 gallon oil tank?

-- Randall  

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 15:19:10 2011
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:19:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <OFE536CC78.40312F5C-ON852578A6.00031AAD-852578A6.00034A3C@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <BANLkTikt0tPDrnb_8N5CZbJGXgXaUAci3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFE536CC78.40312F5C-ON852578A6.00031AAD-852578A6.00034A3C@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20110605141618.069d4a58@yahoo.com>

You do know you can prepay in Aug for the whole year and they re-fill 
you on a schedule at that same price?

Or.. at least every oil company I've dealt with has that program.


The only other oil tank trick I know is to encase the copper fuel 
line in plastic tubing if it runs along the floor in a concrete 
basement.  It'll last longer that way.  Previous owner on my last 
house didn't know that trick.  Pinhole at o'dark:thirty on day 2 of 
ownership....



At 06/04/11 at 17:21, Shakespearean monkeys danced on 
eric at megageek.com's keyboard and said:
>Actually, I would have put 3 of the tanks in if I could have.  I have a
>1000 gal inground that is getting replaced.  I loved it, normally I would
>fill it up once in Aug (when oil was cheapest) and it could get me through
>the year, with maybe a small refill somewhere in march.
>
>The more oil you can store, means you can buy it when it's cheapest.


Cheers!

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun  6 04:41:17 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 06:41:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <00d801cc23fe$69f5bf00$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <OFD08C2F4A.9B7D5AF4-ON852578A7.003BEF97-852578A7.003C0ED8@mail.megageek.com>

Randall asks...

>I must've missed something.  If you have natural gas service, why do you
>need a 1000 gallon oil tank?

I have multiple buildings on the property.  The main house and the Garage 
M'hal is oil.  The guest house and the other building is gas.

I should have clarified that.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun  6 04:45:29 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 06:45:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20110605141618.069d4a58@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OF28741FB8.002A700D-ON852578A7.003C1E28-852578A7.003C7138@mail.megageek.com>

Richard writes...

>You do know you can prepay in Aug for the whole year and they re-fill 
>you on a schedule at that same price?

Yes, but the prepay price isn't as cheap as the real Aug price.

For example.  When I was last looking at the prepaid option years ago...

Pre pay was $2.75
Aug price was $2.05

So it was a big enough savings.


Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 10:51:13 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 11:51:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
Message-ID: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>

to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm considering
buying a GPS for the car.

I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough for
an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson that
could probably program it for me...

recommendations ??

thanks

john

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 11:34:50 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 13:34:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4DED0FBA.6020001@gmail.com>

John,

1) Smartphone.  If you've got an Android or Blackberry, get the Google 
Maps app for it.  I don't use a standalone GPS unit any more.

2) Barring that, I'll go home and get the model number off ours, which 
we bought at Thanksgiving for my mom before she said she already had 
one.  It works fine, and I have to think at this point virtually 
anything from Tomtom or Magellan (or the other Big Name I'm forgetting 
right now...Garmin!  That's it!) will have to do just fine.  Our was $75 
on sale, works great.  Think it's a Tomtom.

Scott

On 6/6/2011 12:51 PM, john niolon wrote:
> to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm considering
> buying a GPS for the car.
>
> I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
> available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough for
> an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson that
> could probably program it for me...
>
> recommendations ??

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun  6 11:34:35 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:34:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <OFA20B9132.6092EDED-ON852578A7.0061C739-852578A7.0061EDB5@mail.megageek.com>

John, 

I love my Garmin Nuvi.  I've had a few in different cars and got a few for 
friends.  But really what I find is that there isn't much of a difference 
with the consumer level ones anymore.

I'd just wait for a sale at the GPS Store or Walmart and get anything 
around the $100 mark (if you don't want alot of extra features.)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 



to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm 
considering
buying a GPS for the car.

I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough 
for
an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson 
that
could probably program it for me...

recommendations ??

thanks

john
_

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 11:59:22 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 13:59:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikYL4KXTY0K_SoMn=-S8FupA7_iAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <675F2BBCD926409C87F3E74E731EE9B0@OwnerPC>
	<BANLkTinJh4ME1WdBwsequpKSu-SCue-daw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikYL4KXTY0K_SoMn=-S8FupA7_iAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DED157A.6010104@gmail.com>

Wife has a 2003 VW Beetle.  A metal a/c line has rubbed up against a 
bracket until a pinhole formed, releasing the R134.

Anyone know of something from a tube I can slather over the hole that 
will hold the pressure of the system?  I *think* it's on the high side 
of the system, and the hole is so small I can't actually see it.  But my 
wife said the shop pointed it out to her and she saw something coming 
out of it.  A hole that small, I'm inclined to try a repair first, but I 
know jack about a/c.  You guys know darn near everything, it seems,  so...

Thanks.

Scott

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Jun  6 12:01:42 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:01:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1106061353450.27159@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 6 Jun 2011, john niolon wrote:
> to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm considering
> buying a GPS for the car.
>
> I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
> available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough for
> an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson that
> could probably program it for me...
>
> recommendations ??

    Do you have a cell phone?  If so, don't bother with a GPS.  My phone 
came with two GPS navigation apps, and the Google version actually works ( 
the Sprint app is useless ).  It's just as good as any dedicated device 
I've seen, way more convenient, and essentially free.  My phone is 
admittedly a little high-end ( HTC Evo ), but even much cheaper phones 
will run the same app.

    I type in the address, and it plots the route and tells me when to 
turn.  Theoretically, it can even do speech recognition, but that's about 
useless.  I tried to tell it my sister's address in Cleveland, and it 
heard "3245 South Africa" or "3245 Hungary".  Seriously?  Driving 
directions from Illinois to South Africa?

    My wife has a Tom-Tom.  Easy enough to use, but she rarely does, 
because it's stowed away in the glovebox.

--
  David Hillman

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 12:03:42 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 11:03:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <0a6f01cc2474$1285b2e0$379118a0$@rr.com>

> I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76
> models
> available...

That's because they assign a different model number to each collection of
options.  They're all pretty much the same basic receiver inside, the
options are things like display size, voice recognition, free map updates,
traffic subscription, etc.

I bought a Garmin Nuvi 1350T for the wife, she seems quite happy with it.
4.3" color display, "free" traffic subscription (actually it's supported by
advertising that pops up on the screen occasionally), and one free map
update.  About $120-130 most places.  Or they now have the 1350LMT which is
the same receiver but with "lifetime free map updates", and costs some $30
more.

But don't forget they do sometimes make mistakes, of various kinds.  We took
a long trip with a friend's Nuvi before buying ours, and it once guided me
into an abandoned parking lot in the middle of nowhere, saying "continue on
highway 15" when there wasn't a highway within miles.  It also tried to get
me to drive through a river (which might be fordable for part of the year,
but was 4-6' deep when we were there).

-- Randall 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jun  6 12:07:14 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:07:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DED0FBA.6020001@gmail.com>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
	<4DED0FBA.6020001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimhbgW8YkX1AjHU6dW=wQsPb4G-6A@mail.gmail.com>

I have owned about 5 or 6 Garmins over the last 15 years, and I have
(obviously) been happy with them.
The biggest downside is that the databases get out-of-date, and you
have to pay real money for updates.
It's almost like cellphones or laptops, where a replacement battery is
so expensive that it's often worth just chucking it and getting an
entire new unit.

I have a Droid X which has nice Google maps and navigation, but even
with a car mount, it is not as easy to use as a dedicated unit.  There
are simply too many ways to hit the wrong button and find yourself in
Facebook, etc.

In practice, I use the Garmin to tell me where to drive, and the Droid
to tell me about traffic conditions and where the nearest good pizza
place is.

Doug


On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Scott Hall
<scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> 1) Smartphone.  If you've got an Android or Blackberry, get the Google Maps
> app for it.  I don't use a standalone GPS unit any more.
>
> 2) Barring that, I'll go home and get the model number off ours, which we
> bought at Thanksgiving for my mom before she said she already had one.  It
> works fine, and I have to think at this point virtually anything from
Tomtom
> or Magellan (or the other Big Name I'm forgetting right now...Garmin!
>  That's it!) will have to do just fine.  Our was $75 on sale, works great.
>  Think it's a Tomtom.
>
> Scott
>
> On 6/6/2011 12:51 PM, john niolon wrote:
>>
>> to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm
>> considering
>> buying a GPS for the car.
>>
>> I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
>> available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough
>> for
>> an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson
>> that
>> could probably program it for me...
>>
>> recommendations ??
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com

From miq at bigllama.com  Mon Jun  6 12:10:42 2011
From: miq at bigllama.com (Miq Millman)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 11:10:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DED0FBA.6020001@gmail.com>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
	<4DED0FBA.6020001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikk=6BW5_DJLb1884edkEZANNCiTw@mail.gmail.com>

Tomtom should get brownie points for their (albeit nebulous)
connection to British cars and culture via John Cleese:

http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/john-cleese-breaks-free-tomtom-gps-campaign-132
276

(I've been present for the Cleese voice to yell "You stupid git! I
said make a right" )

--
__
Miq Millman   miq at bigllama.com
Tualatin, OR  Big Llama Productions




On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Scott Hall
<scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> 1) Smartphone.  If you've got an Android or Blackberry, get the Google Maps
> app for it.  I don't use a standalone GPS unit any more.
>
> 2) Barring that, I'll go home and get the model number off ours, which we
> bought at Thanksgiving for my mom before she said she already had one.  It
> works fine, and I have to think at this point virtually anything from
Tomtom
> or Magellan (or the other Big Name I'm forgetting right now...Garmin!
>  That's it!) will have to do just fine.  Our was $75 on sale, works great.
>  Think it's a Tomtom.
>
> Scott
>
> On 6/6/2011 12:51 PM, john niolon wrote:
>>
>> to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm
>> considering
>> buying a GPS for the car.
>>
>> I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
>> available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough
>> for
>> an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson
>> that
>> could probably program it for me...
>>
>> recommendations ??

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 12:14:17 2011
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:14:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4DEBF8FD.5030307@gmail.com>
	<OFDD62DDF0.FDEC8D13-ON852578A7.000E562E-852578A7.000EAED2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimPY6_98CkVZyx0+BOxrwH0By1eAg@mail.gmail.com>

Are you putting in hot air/water loops, or just PV panels?

At the house in which I grew up, we had hot air panels installed in
1978 or so that heated the water coming into the house. Not as
efficient as direct water-circulating panels, but in Harrisburg, PA,
it was enough to bring the inlet water temperature up from ~45F to
~85F during January!

Sadly, there are too many trees at my house in Reston, VA to install
solar, even if at a small scale.

-Peter

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 10:25 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> Ben writes...
>
>> It takes about an hour to replace it and the last
>>one I bought was under $300.
>
> My motivation for just replacing the unit every ten or fifteen years or so
> is that the technology to make them more efficiency is also increasing
> with each replacement.  Sure, the old ones are built like tanks, but the
> new ones use a fraction of the energy.  That is a net gain in my book.
>
> BTW, I'm also in the process of installing a total house solar system.
> Should be done this week.  Once I gauge how well it works, I'm going to
> convert my two gas water heaters to electric (maybe.)  I'd love to get rid
> of the gas systems on my outbuildings (one for the guest house and one for
> another building.)
>
> We'll see how it goes.
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 12:31:54 2011
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:31:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <002e01cc2478$03d41d50$0b7c57f0$@com>

What features do you care about?

We have two Mio Digiwalker C310's that we bought for ~$125 around five years
ago and we loved them.  

The power cord failed on one of them (and the batteries gave up the ghost a
very long time ago), so we got a Garmin Nuvi 1490T at the beginning of this
year.  We didn't know what we were missing!

The 1490T has a few features that the older Mios do not that I would miss if
they were gone:

1)  The bigger screen:  I didn't think that I'd care, but you can just get a
ton more info on the new 5" widescreen GPS and it's really nice.

2)  Text-to-Speech:  It speaks the road names, which saves you having to
look at the GPS to figure out _which_ of the upcoming left turns is the one
that you need to make.

3)  MUCH faster startup:  When I power the Mio up, it might take a mile or
two of driving before it knows where we're at.  The Nuvi is tracking by the
time I get out of the garage.  I'm guessing that it never drops the GPS
signal when it's in 'standby.'

4)  Auto-power on/off:  Our cigarette lighters in our two daily drivers are
switched with the ignition.  When the Garmin senses power, it comes on.
When you shut the car off, it automatically powers down after 30 seconds
unless you press a button to tell it to stay on.  It's nice to just have it
take care of itself when you're making a long drive and stopping for
fuel/lunch/the night/etc.

Garmin also offers lifetime map updates with some of their GPS's, which is a
really nice perk.  The maps on the Mio's are way out of date and I'm too
cheap to pay for the updates.

Another feature we have in the Nuvi is traffic.  If you're out in the
boonies, this isn't much of a benefit, but it's really nice in densely
populated areas.

My in-laws had a Tom-Tom, and it was OK, but they've also recently purchased
a Nuvi and prefer it.  I don't have any experience with Magellans.

-Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 12:51 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop

to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm
considering
buying a GPS for the car.

I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough for
an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson that
could probably program it for me...

recommendations ??

thanks

john

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 12:54:23 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:54:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps direction
Message-ID: <632FDBB781FD4CE2A3B12A8C8644088E@OwnerPC>

I've had my s-i-ls unit tell me "turn left... turn left.... turn left... turn
left... continue on Hiway 65"  before.... it was fun going around the block...
but really a waste of time :-)

j

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jun  6 12:57:51 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:57:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1106061353450.27159@itonami.pair.com>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1106061353450.27159@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTin4-Uj+ndAtf1jO-rC4kc23sTj4UA@mail.gmail.com>

Do you know if in Android/Goodle it is possible to associate a
specific location with a contact so
you can reliably navigate to it?  If on my Droid X I do "navigate to
Aunt Eunice", it looks up
Aunt Eunice's street address in the contacts, and then Google tries to
determine the actual location
of that address.  And it may or may not get it right.

I used to have a Garmin iQue (a Palm with GPS and customized apps),
and it let you store
that actual Lat/Lon of a contact.  It also let you add your current
GPS location to the contacts.

Doug

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 2:01 PM, David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com>
wrote:

>
>   Do you have a cell phone?  If so, don't bother with a GPS.  My phone came
> with two GPS navigation apps, and the Google version actually works ( the
> Sprint app is useless ).  It's just as good as any dedicated device I've
> seen, way more convenient, and essentially free.  My phone is admittedly a
> little high-end ( HTC Evo ), but even much cheaper phones will run the same
> app.
>
>   I type in the address, and it plots the route and tells me when to turn.
>  Theoretically, it can even do speech recognition, but that's about
useless.
>  I tried to tell it my sister's address in Cleveland, and it heard "3245
> South Africa" or "3245 Hungary".  Seriously?  Driving directions from
> Illinois to South Africa?
>
>   My wife has a Tom-Tom.  Easy enough to use, but she rarely does, because
> it's stowed away in the glovebox.
>
> --
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 13:01:39 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:01:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0a6f01cc2474$1285b2e0$379118a0$@rr.com>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
	<0a6f01cc2474$1285b2e0$379118a0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4DED2413.40109@gmail.com>

That's why the only GPS I use any more is the Droid and Google Maps--all 
I REALLY want is an accurate (enough) map and to know where I am on that 
map.  After that, I can figure out how to get there, or allow it to 
suggest a route.  I DO NOT want turn-by-turn directions, because I've 
never gotten over the first few GPS units I had 'death cycle'-ing me 
around an interstate exchange or city block, or trying to get me to 
drive over the railroad bridge, etc.  Google Maps has yet to do that; it 
seems to be updated fairly quickly.

Having said that, I don't REALLY trust it implicitly, but at least I can 
view its suggested route for gross errors.  The GPS units always seem to 
get me in trouble before I realize it.  Or at least annoy the heck out 
of me.

And--though I hate to admit it because I don't trust it--Google seems to 
have built its Traffic feature into its map routing.  Twice it's routed 
me around traffic jams, and once right into one when I ignored its 
advice and drove the way I thought I should...right into four hours on 
I-75.  Also, on my Droid, it'll do the lane-view thing, which is nice 
when I'm in really familiar eight-lane quit-exit territory (ugh, 
Boston), and don't know where I need to be next.

On 6/6/2011 2:03 PM, Randall wrote:
>
> But don't forget they do sometimes make mistakes, of various kinds.  We took
> a long trip with a friend's Nuvi before buying ours, and it once guided me
> into an abandoned parking lot in the middle of nowhere, saying "continue on
> highway 15" when there wasn't a highway within miles.  It also tried to get
> me to drive through a river (which might be fordable for part of the year,
> but was 4-6' deep when we were there).

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun  6 12:49:14 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:49:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimPY6_98CkVZyx0+BOxrwH0By1eAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF043B2E29.45EEF504-ON852578A7.00686A7F-852578A7.0068C381@mail.megageek.com>

Peter asked what kind of solar system I'm doing.

I'm just doing the electric solar right now. NJ has a program where NJ 
veterans can get FREE installation of the panels.  My 26KW (that's right) 
would cost me over $126,000 if I had to pay for it outright.
But there is a company that backs the installation for rights to the SREC 
credits.  They should make their money back in about 6 years.  But I get 
free solar!

If anyone is interested in installing it, they have other deals for 
non-vertrans.  Most require a small payment.  I'm installing a 7KW system 
on a rental property I have and it's costing me about $4500 total.

Let me know and I can put you in touch with the company.  Note, I do get a 
referral fee, a huge portion of which I'll donate to this list's 
operation.

But I am very satisfied with the process so far.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 13:26:40 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:26:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff
Message-ID: <89AD52DD41904210B488CE07CC9778B4@OwnerPC>

My father was a surveyor for 60 something years and a map maker... he brought
me up in the trade.  He will probably spin like a gyro in his grave when I buy
this but it will be a convenience out of town and in unfamiliar areas... I
prefer maps... I buy one in every town I visit... must have 10 dozen... the
maps will show me the back roads and roundabouts that gps won't ... nice to
miss 10 mph beach road traffic when two blocks over is a nice 4 lane
industrial blvd with no traffic lights... I know them in every town we
frequent.

the GPS will help me on trips where I'm unfamiliar with the area and when to
exit the 6 lane freeway , there if you miss a turn you tend to cuss loudly in
front of your 10 year old grandson... not a good thing.

j

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 13:40:05 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:40:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <4DED157A.6010104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110606194005.5NSW4.92010.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>

I don't know if anything adhesive will work.

You can try splitting a piece of hose, putting it over the line, and tightening a hose clamp around it.  This might work or might not.  Depending on who does your AC work, some people won't fill it if it has a leak, in fact some states, maybe all of them, it is illegal to fill it if it has a leak.


> Wife has a 2003 VW Beetle.  A metal a/c line has rubbed up against a 
> bracket until a pinhole formed, releasing the R134.
> 
> Anyone know of something from a tube I can slather over the hole that 
> will hold the pressure of the system?  I *think* it's on the high side 
> of the system, and the hole is so small I can't actually see it.  But my 
> wife said the shop pointed it out to her and she saw something coming 
> out of it.  A hole that small, I'm inclined to try a repair first, but I 
> know jack about a/c.  You guys know darn near everything, it seems,  so...

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 13:43:09 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 14:43:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps direction
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20110606122736.03cc0da0@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20110606122736.03cc0da0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4E9B8893A49C4AA4A5D9C6ABD7F22BF9@OwnerPC>

we named my s-i-ls unit "Eleanor"   from Gone in 60 Seconds.

based on what I hear.... they are all pretty fair/sometimes dumb/handy
units...

gonna check out Garmin Nuvis and the Tom-Toms tonite and compare ... the free
map upgrade might tip the scales

thanks all
and remember    turn left   NOW!!!!!!!

j
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steve Shipley
  To: john niolon
  Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 2:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] gps direction


  At 01:54 PM 6/6/2011 -0500, you wrote:

    I've had my s-i-ls unit tell me "turn left... turn left.... turn left...
turn
    left... continue on Hiway 65"  before.... it was fun going around the
block...
    but really a waste of time :-)


  I bought one from Buy.com for under 100.  What I learned that Buy.com
  doesn't publish bad reviews but Amazon does.  What I like about mine
  is that the GPS lady has an accent.  "Turn rice".


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1511/3684 - Release Date: 06/06/11

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jun  6 13:51:40 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:51:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <20110606194005.5NSW4.92010.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
References: <4DED157A.6010104@gmail.com>
	<20110606194005.5NSW4.92010.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
Message-ID: <0LMD002S7WIF2J90@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I think you're right, but then the only way they find the leak is by 
filling it.  I'm going through this right now with my 
suburban.  Charge lasted less than a year.  They charged it, added 
dye and said to come back in a week.  I snooped around with my UV 
light and I can't find anything.  We'll see if they do.  As for the 
JB Weld, I guess you could give it a try, but I'm not 
optimistic.  There's a lot of pressure on the high side.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 03:40 PM 6/6/2011, bjshov8 at tx.rr.com wrote:
>Depending on who does your AC work, some people won't fill it if it 
>has a leak, in fact some states, maybe all of them, it is illegal to 
>fill it if it has a leak.

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jun  6 14:19:37 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 16:19:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps direction
In-Reply-To: <4E9B8893A49C4AA4A5D9C6ABD7F22BF9@OwnerPC>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20110606122736.03cc0da0@mail.comcast.net>
	<4E9B8893A49C4AA4A5D9C6ABD7F22BF9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <0LMD00CDJXT3EVC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

The navigation voice is frequently referred to as "Betty."  F-16 
pilots named the voice of the cockpit warning system "Bitchin 
Betty."  The tradition has carried over to gps units, though many 
people don't know the origin.  Of course, you can call yours anything 
you like.  This is the actual Bitchin Betty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0AK4yxBGnM

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net



At 03:43 PM 6/6/2011, john niolon wrote:
>we named my s-i-ls unit "Eleanor"   from Gone in 60 Seconds.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 14:26:22 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:26:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <0LMD002S7WIF2J90@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <4DED157A.6010104@gmail.com>
	<20110606194005.5NSW4.92010.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<0LMD002S7WIF2J90@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <0a8b01cc2488$01289210$0379b630$@rr.com>

> I think you're right, but then the only way they find the leak is by
> filling it.

But they don't necessarily fill it with Freon.  When I went through this a
few years ago, I believe it was nitrogen they used for leak checking.
(Turned out to be the compressor leaking through a joint in the housing,
only at high pressure.)

-- Randall 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 14:32:22 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:32:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <0LMD002S7WIF2J90@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <4DED157A.6010104@gmail.com>
	<20110606194005.5NSW4.92010.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<0LMD002S7WIF2J90@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimkx+8OF98msb-Lx3Hr+6eu6qgdAw@mail.gmail.com>

*JB weld, a small square of beer can and a good hose clamp . . think this
way:  the pressure may be high but you're dealing with a .002" hole so the
effective pressure will only be*
*.002 of high pressure Per Square Inch.  .002ths of 500 PSI is only  about a
pound!
*
*(Ducking for cover)*

*Tony*
*

*

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 14:39:24 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:39:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff
In-Reply-To: <89AD52DD41904210B488CE07CC9778B4@OwnerPC>
References: <89AD52DD41904210B488CE07CC9778B4@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <0a8d01cc2489$d33d2120$79b76360$@rr.com>

> My father was a surveyor for 60 something years and a map maker... he
> brought
> me up in the trade.  He will probably spin like a gyro in his grave
> when I buy this

Why?  The map is the most important part.  Without it, the GPS receiver is
nearly useless for most people.  Most cell phones will give you latitude &
longitude ... what good is that?

-- Randall 

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jun  6 14:39:17 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 16:39:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <0a8b01cc2488$01289210$0379b630$@rr.com>
References: <4DED157A.6010104@gmail.com>
	<20110606194005.5NSW4.92010.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<0LMD002S7WIF2J90@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<0a8b01cc2488$01289210$0379b630$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <0LMD001Z8YQF2V20@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, they filled mine with refrigerant, because it is cooling fine now.

-Steve

At 04:26 PM 6/6/2011, Randall wrote:
> > I think you're right, but then the only way they find the leak is by
> > filling it.
>
>But they don't necessarily fill it with Freon.  When I went through this a
>few years ago, I believe it was nitrogen they used for leak checking.
>(Turned out to be the compressor leaking through a joint in the housing,
>only at high pressure.)
>
>-- Randall
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 14:54:01 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:54:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps direction
In-Reply-To: <0LMD00CDJXT3EVC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <20110606205401.F8LH6.203607.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>

Some of the other car guys I read on the internet refer to the person usually in the passenger seat as the "AWA", since they usually start screaming when you make extreme maneuvers.


> The navigation voice is frequently referred to as "Betty."  F-16 
> pilots named the voice of the cockpit warning system "Bitchin 
> Betty."  The tradition has carried over to gps units, though many 
> people don't know the origin.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 14:57:59 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:57:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimkx+8OF98msb-Lx3Hr+6eu6qgdAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110606205759.MHACV.203628.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>

The small piece of metal patch might be a good idea to try.

I suspect the hole is larger than 0.002", but lets just assume that it is 0.031" which is about 1/32" (still pretty darned small).  At 200 psi that is a net pressure on the patch of about 2.5 ounces.



> *JB weld, a small square of beer can and a good hose clamp . . think this
> way:  the pressure may be high but you're dealing with a .002" hole so the
> effective pressure will only be*
> *.002 of high pressure Per Square Inch.  .002ths of 500 PSI is only  about a
> pound!
> *
> *(Ducking for cover)*
> 
> *Tony*
> *
> 
> *

From mikey at b2systems.com  Mon Jun  6 15:15:28 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 14:15:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps direction
In-Reply-To: <20110606205401.F8LH6.203607.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>
References: <20110606205401.F8LH6.203607.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>
Message-ID: <4DED4370.6090506@b2systems.com>

  I hate going anywhere out of town without my GPS so I always make sure 
to bring my GPS when going out of town, my Girl in Passenger Seat can 
even read maps, although map reading is not why I married her.

     mike

On 06/06/2011 01:54 PM, bjshov8 at tx.rr.com wrote:
> Some of the other car guys I read on the internet refer to the person usually in the passenger seat as the "AWA", since they usually start screaming when you make extreme maneuvers.

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun  6 14:59:58 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:59:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps direction
In-Reply-To: <0LMD00CDJXT3EVC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <OF260F4222.4404BFF6-ON852578A7.0074AE1C-852578A7.0074BB7D@mail.megageek.com>

I call mine "The Nag-a-vator!"  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




The navigation voice is frequently referred to as "Betty."  F-16 
pilots named the voice of the cockpit warning system "Bitchin 
Betty."  The tradition has carried over to gps units, though many 
people don't know the origin.  Of course, you can call yours anything 
you like.  This is the actual Bitchin Betty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0AK4yxBGnM

-Steve Trovato

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Mon Jun  6 15:53:33 2011
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 22:53:33 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <OF043B2E29.45EEF504-ON852578A7.00686A7F-852578A7.0068C381@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF043B2E29.45EEF504-ON852578A7.00686A7F-852578A7.0068C381@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DED4C5D.2000506@talktalk.net>

As usual the UK prices are double - 10kW systems seem to be around #10k 
here... Not that I have shopped seriously - just a couple of casual 
enquiries - maybe these are inflated prices that get pared back to 
reality with 'discounts'

On 06/06/2011 19:49, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Peter asked what kind of solar system I'm doing.
>
> I'm just doing the electric solar right now. NJ has a program where NJ
> veterans can get FREE installation of the panels.  My 26KW (that's right)
> would cost me over $126,000 if I had to pay for it outright.
> But there is a company that backs the installation for rights to the SREC
> credits.  They should make their money back in about 6 years.  But I get
> free solar!
>
> If anyone is interested in installing it, they have other deals for
> non-vertrans.  Most require a small payment.  I'm installing a 7KW system
> on a rental property I have and it's costing me about $4500 total.
>
> Let me know and I can put you in touch with the company.  Note, I do get a
> referral fee, a huge portion of which I'll donate to this list's
> operation.
>
> But I am very satisfied with the process so far.
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Jun  6 16:35:04 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:35:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <277C331E46C24563B5688FDD257D86F9@EntCent>

Just make sure it has lifetime maps and traffic, if it does traffic.  When
buying new, the cost for these is a minimal adder.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 9:51 AM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop

to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm
considering
buying a GPS for the car.

I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough for
an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson that
could probably program it for me...

recommendations ??

thanks

john
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Mon Jun  6 16:49:57 2011
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:49:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DED4C5D.2000506@talktalk.net>
References: <OF043B2E29.45EEF504-ON852578A7.00686A7F-852578A7.0068C381@mail.megageek.com>
	<4DED4C5D.2000506@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <345972.26965.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For PV installers in California, anyway, there is a good deal of regulation 
and formula used to set rates for photovoltaic installations. A few years ago 
(and it has not changed much), it was roughly $6,000 per kW capacity installed 
and connected to the grid (all the panels, mounts, wiring, inverters, hardware, 
permits, labor, etc.). 

Depending on the current rebates, incentives, tax deductions, etc., one may pay 
only about 60% of that amount.
 best,


doug





________________________________
From: Neil Sherry <neiljsherry at talktalk.net>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Mon, June 6, 2011 2:53:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues

As usual the UK prices are double - 10kW systems seem to be around #10k 
here... Not that I have shopped seriously - just a couple of casual 
enquiries - maybe these are inflated prices that get pared back to 
reality with 'discounts'

On 06/06/2011 19:49, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Peter asked what kind of solar system I'm doing.
>
> I'm just doing the electric solar right now. NJ has a program where NJ
> veterans can get FREE installation of the panels.  My 26KW (that's right)
> would cost me over $126,000 if I had to pay for it outright.
> But there is a company that backs the installation for rights to the SREC
> credits.  They should make their money back in about 6 years.  But I get
> free solar!
>
> If anyone is interested in installing it, they have other deals for
> non-vertrans.  Most require a small payment.  I'm installing a 7KW system
> on a rental property I have and it's costing me about $4500 total.
>
> Let me know and I can put you in touch with the company.  Note, I do get a
> referral fee, a huge portion of which I'll donate to this list's
> operation.
>
> But I am very satisfied with the process so far.
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at pacbell.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 16:57:18 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:57:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <20110606205759.MHACV.203628.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>
References: <BANLkTimkx+8OF98msb-Lx3Hr+6eu6qgdAw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110606205759.MHACV.203628.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>
Message-ID: <0ae601cc249d$1740cd50$45c267f0$@rr.com>

> I suspect the hole is larger than 0.002", but lets just assume that it
> is 0.031" which is about 1/32" (still pretty darned small).  At 200 psi
> that is a net pressure on the patch of about 2.5 ounces.

Having tried similar repairs with JB Weld, I don't believe that calculation
is meaningful.  I don't know all the reasons why, but one is that the tubing
itself gets slightly larger under pressure.  This puts any kind of adhesive
patch under considerable tension, even if there is no hole at all.

Also, even though the total force is small, it is concentrated over an area
the size of the hole.  Think of how easy it is to punch an ice pick through
a beer can.  So your patch still has to withstand 200 psi.  

Tony's solution might work, but the clamp needs to contribute considerable
strength.  Since you'll have to open the system anyway, I'd go with cutting
the line and inserting a union of some sort.

-- Randall 

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jun  6 20:00:34 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 22:00:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <0ae601cc249d$1740cd50$45c267f0$@rr.com>
References: <BANLkTimkx+8OF98msb-Lx3Hr+6eu6qgdAw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110606205759.MHACV.203628.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>
	<0ae601cc249d$1740cd50$45c267f0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <0LME00LL4DN2P3L0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I'd go with replacing the line.  I know, it probably costs a million 
dollars at the dealership, but that's what I'd do.  If this rubbing 
on the bracket thing is an unusual situation, I suppose one could try 
to find a used line, but it all comes down to how much the part 
really costs and how much your time is worth, I guess.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net


At 06:57 PM 6/6/2011, Randall wrote:
>Tony's solution might work, but the clamp needs to contribute considerable
>strength.  Since you'll have to open the system anyway, I'd go with cutting
>the line and inserting a union of some sort.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Jun  6 21:12:32 2011
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 20:12:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4DED9720.8020805@earthlink.net>

John - Some people love the smart phones, but I'm a simple phone guy, so 
I use a Garmin nuvi and like it.

If you live in a busy area, traffic information is very valuable.  Just 
last week, getting on the Los Angeles 110 freeway, I heard "severa 
traffic ahead - recalculating".  The GPS routed me a different way and I 
only lost about 5 minutes.  A co-worker didn't get the traffic info and 
was an hour late.

Most of the time, the talking ones are also very handy since you don't 
have to look at the screen - "turn left then keep right" - to have the 
reminder to turn and also to know which lane you want to be in.

It still helps to know where you are going and locals may have a better 
way, but it sure is nice to just put in an address and go.

Another feature to consider is bluetooth for your phone.  I start the 
car and my gps automatically connects to my phone for hands free use.  
If someone calls, it pops up on the screen and I can push answer or 
ignore it.  If I'm running late, I can do three pushes to phone home.

They also have a database of locations.  My wife wanted to eat at Subway 
in an area we didn't know, so I had it search for "Subway" and got a 
list with direction and distance from my current location.   We picked 
the nearest one in the direction we were heading and she got the food 
she wanted.

This same search would be great for visiting a new area and looking to 
kill some time.  You could search for shop related toy stores like 
Harbor Freight, Woodcraft, or one of the home centers.  Someday in 
another area I'll search Tractor Supply since it sounds interesting and 
we don't have any locally.

Other times we've been out and wanted pizza.  That was a choice under 
restaurants and we got a bunch of local options.  Of course the kids 
wanted a particular brand and I wanted to call ahead, but there was no 
listing for the location that has been in business for a number of 
years, so it isn't perfect.

Another handy feature is the estimated arrival time.  In Los Angeles, 
were when you ask how far a place is and people answer in minutes 
instead of miles, this is handy.

Once you pick screen size then options like traffic, bluetooth, updates 
(one or lifetime), you are down to just a few models.

Brian

On 6/6/2011 9:51 AM, john niolon wrote:
> to keep it shop related... sometimes losing my way to the shop I'm considering
> buying a GPS for the car.
>
> I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76 models
> available...  I need something in the range of $0 - $200 and easy enough for
> an old man to use... as a backup plan I do have a 10 year old grandson that
> could probably program it for me...
>
> recommendations ??
>
> thanks
>
> john
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 21:38:57 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 22:38:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <0a6f01cc2474$1285b2e0$379118a0$@rr.com>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
	<0a6f01cc2474$1285b2e0$379118a0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinwaXKdyx6ho07oFiP8bhAAiJCNww@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> I start looking and realize that each manufacturer has at least 76
>> models
>> available...
>
> That's because they assign a different model number to each collection of
> options. B They're all pretty much the same basic receiver inside, the
> options are things like display size, voice recognition, free map updates,
> traffic subscription, etc.
>

In some cases, they also have different models for different
retailers, to make price shopping harder.

I'm in the smart phone camp, myself.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 23:28:50 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 00:28:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy/JB Weld on auto a/c line?
In-Reply-To: <0ae601cc249d$1740cd50$45c267f0$@rr.com>
References: <BANLkTimkx+8OF98msb-Lx3Hr+6eu6qgdAw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110606205759.MHACV.203628.root@cdptpa-web27-z01>
	<0ae601cc249d$1740cd50$45c267f0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikO40T7aVnJVQSLckWpTxDtBc0Sfg@mail.gmail.com>

*
*
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> > I suspect the hole is larger than 0.002", but lets just assume that it
> > is 0.031" which is about 1/32" (still pretty darned small).  At 200 psi
> > that is a net pressure on the patch of about 2.5 ounces.
>

*Wait!  Scott says the hole is too little to see!  Let's imagine it's .003,
the area would be 70 millionths of an inch and the pressure @ 300 psi would
only be .002 psi!  I think JB **would hold it with a beer can patch and a
clamp and save having to open the system, evacuate and recharge. *

>
>
>
>
 >Tony's solution might work, but the clamp needs to contribute
> >considerable
> >strength.  Since you'll have to open the system anyway, I'd go >with
> cutting
> >the line and inserting a union of some sort.
>

*If you DO have to open the system and a new hose it hugely
expensive,  Randall's union  fix would be  very correct and intelligent; it
would be very little more difficult and it would be a lasting &
professional-appearing fix .  A hydraulic hose repair shop will have the
union unless it's a weird size and it will work unless there are bends in
the holed area.*
*Tony*

>
>  _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 11:10:47 2011
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 10:10:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Above ground oil tanks
In-Reply-To: <OF28741FB8.002A700D-ON852578A7.003C1E28-852578A7.003C7138@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20110605141618.069d4a58@yahoo.com>
	<OF28741FB8.002A700D-ON852578A7.003C1E28-852578A7.003C7138@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20110606100903.072542b8@yahoo.com>

Wow, that's a big diff.  I've never seen it that big, but then, I've 
been using anthracite for the past 5-6 years.  I only buy maybe 
100-200 gallons or so a year now...

The coal companies charge the same price all year round...


At 06/06/11 at 03:45, Shakespearean monkeys danced on 
eric at megageek.com's keyboard and said:
>Richard writes...
>
> >You do know you can prepay in Aug for the whole year and they re-fill
> >you on a schedule at that same price?
>
>Yes, but the prepay price isn't as cheap as the real Aug price.
>
>For example.  When I was last looking at the prepaid option years ago...
>
>Pre pay was $2.75
>Aug price was $2.05
>
>So it was a big enough savings.


Cheers!

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 04:59:57 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 06:59:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] anode rods-- was the air saga continues
In-Reply-To: <4DED4C5D.2000506@talktalk.net>
References: <OF043B2E29.45EEF504-ON852578A7.00686A7F-852578A7.0068C381@mail.megageek.com>
	<4DED4C5D.2000506@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <4DEE04AD.5030501@gmail.com>

Don't get too upset--the prices are all over in the States too.  I'm 
tempted to move to New Jersey just to get in on Moose's offer.  Prices 
to install solar in Florida--you know, the Sunshine State--are probably 
about $30,000 for that 7KW system Moose is talking about...if you can 
find an installer.  Or at least when I inquired about the smallest 
system I could put on my house it started just north of $30k.  That was 
a year-ish ago.

On 6/6/2011 5:53 PM, Neil Sherry wrote:
> As usual the UK prices are double - 10kW systems seem to be around 
> #10k here... Not that I have shopped seriously - just a couple of 
> casual enquiries - maybe these are inflated prices that get pared back 
> to reality with 'discounts'
>
> On 06/06/2011 19:49, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>> Peter asked what kind of solar system I'm doing.
>>
>> I'm just doing the electric solar right now. NJ has a program where NJ
>> veterans can get FREE installation of the panels.  My 26KW (that's 
>> right)
>> would cost me over $126,000 if I had to pay for it outright.
>> But there is a company that backs the installation for rights to the 
>> SREC
>> credits.  They should make their money back in about 6 years.  But I get
>> free solar!
>>
>> If anyone is interested in installing it, they have other deals for
>> non-vertrans.  Most require a small payment.  I'm installing a 7KW 
>> system
>> on a rental property I have and it's costing me about $4500 total.
>>
>> Let me know and I can put you in touch with the company.  Note, I do 
>> get a
>> referral fee, a huge portion of which I'll donate to this list's
>> operation.
>>
>> But I am very satisfied with the process so far.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 05:09:49 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 07:09:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps to find the shop
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinwaXKdyx6ho07oFiP8bhAAiJCNww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0371C8C7D6E443069F46B69ABC8729E9@OwnerPC>
	<0a6f01cc2474$1285b2e0$379118a0$@rr.com>
	<BANLkTinwaXKdyx6ho07oFiP8bhAAiJCNww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DEE06FD.2020900@gmail.com>

I asked my wife last night what kind of GPS we bought, she said it was a 
Garmin.  Lemme go find it and I'll get the model number.

This morning, since I asked last night, she showed me this:

http://1saleaday.com/

Apparently she checks these daily, and that's today's 'deal'.  No 
financial interest, I've never bought anything from them, YMMV, etc., etc.

Scott

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Jun  7 05:43:14 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 07:43:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff
Message-ID: <1eb593f.39083.13069e9e5e2.Webtop.44@charter.net>

We had a tomtom initially and it kept locking up on me. I had to 
constantly use a pin to reset it--what a PITA that was.

Now we have a GarminNuvi1300. We are reasonably happy with it although 
it sometimes gets left and right wrong as in "destination is on left" 
when it was actually on the right.

Right now, for the most part, my gps unit is the speedometer for my 
Roadster as my speedo and tach do not currently work. I have found this 
feature to be very accurate.

Tim
Dairyland Datsuns

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Jun  7 16:42:15 2011
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 17:42:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff
In-Reply-To: <1eb593f.39083.13069e9e5e2.Webtop.44@charter.net>
References: <1eb593f.39083.13069e9e5e2.Webtop.44@charter.net>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W25C34761DC0BADC320C6CDE1630@phx.gbl>

We had our son using his phone for several months...
In down town Chicago it could not update fast enough to be of any help.
The monthly charge was such that it cost more than a dedicated unit and that
did not include the data usage.
It was not a "smart" phone and we have not tried his dedicated unit in similar
locations.

If think your phone will do it for you, check the cost and try it like you
will use it.

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 17:11:18 2011
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 19:11:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W25C34761DC0BADC320C6CDE1630@phx.gbl>
References: <1eb593f.39083.13069e9e5e2.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<SNT123-W25C34761DC0BADC320C6CDE1630@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik15jAu6gC+qv8G=NH71mjozHxPGg@mail.gmail.com>

One more important issue with using a smartphone as a GPS is that it gets
the maps over cellular data (They're usually not stored on the phone).  That
means that you lose your maps when you don't have signal.

I mentioned before that the cord for one of our older units failed.  It
happened to me as I was leaving the track to come home.  I thought, "No
problem, I'll just use my phone."  I take a very rural route home from this
particular track.  It's a beautiful drive down a lot of old country roads.
 Unfortunately, I got 15 minutes from the track and into the middle of
nowhere when I found myself without cellular signal and without navigational
aid.  I got home alright, but I definitely didn't take the most efficient
route.  Instead, I had to just work my way toward home driving in the right
general direction until I finally came to a 'major' road.

I'd wager that shop-talkers are more likely than most to find themselves
beyond the pale, so that's one more thing to consider.

-Paul

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:

> We had our son using his phone for several months...
> In down town Chicago it could not update fast enough to be of any help.
> The monthly charge was such that it cost more than a dedicated unit and
> that
> did not include the data usage.
> It was not a "smart" phone and we have not tried his dedicated unit in
> similar
> locations.
>
> If think your phone will do it for you, check the cost and try it like you
> will use it.
>
> Rich White Central, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF###L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/parkanzky at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 18:07:38 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 19:07:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Tubing
Message-ID: <BANLkTik4YXpOSL-=9qi7k31X+uhNmYL7AA@mail.gmail.com>

*

A vintage glider project needs a piece of aluminum tubing,
5" OD, .062 wall about 2 feet long . . I bleeeve that was once
an irrigation pipe size . . Anyone have a lead on such?

Tony in Texas*

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Jun  7 18:50:02 2011
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 20:50:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Tubing
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik4YXpOSL-=9qi7k31X+uhNmYL7AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTik4YXpOSL-=9qi7k31X+uhNmYL7AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC53A50B19A4E29BD8747CB77A6782B@EricJRussellPC>

I've bought steel from On-Line Metals. They also list aluminum tube: 
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=947&step=2&top_cat=60 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 

> A vintage glider project needs a piece of aluminum tubing,
> 5" OD, .062 wall about 2 feet long . . I bleeeve that was once
> an irrigation pipe size . . Anyone have a lead on such?

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 19:12:53 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 20:12:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W25C34761DC0BADC320C6CDE1630@phx.gbl>
References: <1eb593f.39083.13069e9e5e2.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<SNT123-W25C34761DC0BADC320C6CDE1630@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3F773C13-A4D8-480A-A5A0-B61366E839F1@gmail.com>

On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:

> We had our son using his phone for several months...
> In down town Chicago it could not update fast enough to be of any  
> help.
> The monthly charge was such that it cost more than a dedicated unit  
> and that
> did not include the data usage.
> It was not a "smart" phone and we have not tried his dedicated unit  
> in similar
> locations.

With a smartphone you can either buy an app or use a builtin one,  
depending on the phone and your require
Ents.  That's either free or a one time expense. Plus dAta of course.  
Lesser phones, carriers like to sell expensive services to. If I drove  
more, I'd probably want a dedicated thing but for my uses, the phone  
is great.  And it'll give transit, walking, or biking directions.

>
> If think your phone will do git for you, check the cost and try it  
> like you
> will use it.
>
> Rich White Central, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF###L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 19:13:36 2011
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 21:13:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Tubing
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik4YXpOSL-=9qi7k31X+uhNmYL7AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTik4YXpOSL-=9qi7k31X+uhNmYL7AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinmpSk7WqiYeEFqH8jtOK2XHC-tsw@mail.gmail.com>

Try Dillsburg Aeroplane Works. They don't seem to have an official
website, but Google took me to their place page which has contact
info.

114 Saw Mill Road, Dillsburg, PA 17019-9518
(717) 432-4589 b

-Peter

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark
<eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> *
>
> A vintage glider project needs a piece of aluminum tubing,
> 5" OD, .062 wall about 2 feet long . . I bleeeve that was once
> an irrigation pipe size . . Anyone have a lead on such?
>
> Tony in Texas*
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation B $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Tue Jun  7 20:14:14 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:14:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff
In-Reply-To: <3F773C13-A4D8-480A-A5A0-B61366E839F1@gmail.com>
References: <1eb593f.39083.13069e9e5e2.Webtop.44@charter.net>
	<SNT123-W25C34761DC0BADC320C6CDE1630@phx.gbl>
	<3F773C13-A4D8-480A-A5A0-B61366E839F1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DEEDAF6.2070603@tx.rr.com>

My iphone works well in most areas where we have 3G coverage.  In rural 
areas it can range from slow to nothing.  Sometimes the maps won't 
update fast enough to keep up with your driving, or you are in an area 
where you can't download a map.

You can buy maps to preload on your phone, but you might as well have a 
dedicated GPS instead.

I don't need a GPS that much for travel, and I usually look up where I'm 
going in advance.  If the route is difficult I'll just print out the 
maps beforehand and bring them with me.  For most of our traveling a 
normal printed state map is all I need.

>
> With a smartphone you can either buy an app or use a builtin one, 
> depending on the phone and your require
> Ents.  That's either free or a one time expense. Plus dAta of course. 
> Lesser phones, carriers like to sell expensive services to. If I drove 
> more, I'd probably want a dedicated thing but for my uses, the phone 
> is great.  And it'll give transit, walking, or biking directions.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 21:14:26 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 22:14:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Tubing
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinmpSk7WqiYeEFqH8jtOK2XHC-tsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTik4YXpOSL-=9qi7k31X+uhNmYL7AA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinmpSk7WqiYeEFqH8jtOK2XHC-tsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTin018JmHyJHykbSAhGtVjLhLHXaFQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Thanks for the input . . I've been informed*
*that it was a standard size for irrigation pipe*
*but not for about 30 years!  If we don't "get lucky" with a scrap from
someone, I guess the roll forming and Tig welding is the best*
*plan "B".*
**
*Tony in Texas*

From tputland at charter.net  Wed Jun  8 09:28:52 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:28:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
Message-ID: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>

In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and 
garage space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five years 
ago!!! The one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I 
was hanging our four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from the 
rafters in the SHOP space as well as above the garage space.

Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100% 
reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun Roadster 
that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.

Thanks

Tim
Belleville, WI.
'70 SPL AND SRL

From mpless at ucsd.edu  Wed Jun  8 10:16:57 2011
From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 09:16:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net> (from
	tputland@charter.net on Wed Jun  8 08:28:52 2011)
Message-ID: <1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>

I'ge got a few hoists similar to the following in my garage:

_http://www.amazon.com/RAD-Cycle-Products-Ceiling-Mount/dp/tags-on-product/B0
00PEURIQ_
<http://www.amazon.com/RAD-Cycle-Products-Ceiling-Mount/dp/tags-on-product/B0
00PEURIQ>

I think I actually bought mine from nashbar.com or Performance Bike
but for some reason their servers aren't responding right now. The only
thing you need to pay attention to is how well the hooks are "hooked"
under the rear of the saddle, which is entirely determined by the
design of your saddle. You can always use an additional piece of velcro
to make sure the hook can't slip. I've never seen the rope/hoist
mechanism slip, and people I know, as well as myself, have been using
these things for years. I bolted mine to 2x4s which are longer than the
rafter spacing in my garage and I then just place them across the
rafters
like a bridge. That allows me to easily move them or temporarily take
them down if they're in the way for any reason.



On 06/08/2011 08:28:52 AM, Tim wrote:
> In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and
> garage space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five years
> ago!!! The one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I
> was hanging our four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from
> the
> rafters in the SHOP space as well as above the garage space.
>
> Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100%
> reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun
> Roadster
> that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim
> Belleville, WI.
> '70 SPL AND SRL
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mpless at ucsd.edu

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jun  8 10:42:10 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:42:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
	<1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinFgZBcPq9n7cUozJNRw3i+Hdqc5A@mail.gmail.com>

On sale at Amazon for $13.95!!!  (You may have to paste the link back together.)

Doug

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Marcus Pless <mpless at ucsd.edu> wrote:
> I'ge got a few hoists similar to the following in my garage:
>
> _http://www.amazon.com/RAD-Cycle-Products-Ceiling-Mount/dp/tags-on-product/B0
> 00PEURIQ_
> <http://www.amazon.com/RAD-Cycle-Products-Ceiling-Mount/dp/tags-on-product/B0
> 00PEURIQ>
>
> I think I actually bought mine from nashbar.com or Performance Bike
> but for some reason their servers aren't responding right now. The only
> thing you need to pay attention to is how well the hooks are "hooked"
> under the rear of the saddle, which is entirely determined by the
> design of your saddle. You can always use an additional piece of velcro
> to make sure the hook can't slip. I've never seen the rope/hoist
> mechanism slip, and people I know, as well as myself, have been using
> these things for years. I bolted mine to 2x4s which are longer than the
> rafter spacing in my garage and I then just place them across the
> rafters
> like a bridge. That allows me to easily move them or temporarily take
> them down if they're in the way for any reason.

From gwishon at nd.edu  Wed Jun  8 10:48:43 2011
From: gwishon at nd.edu (Gordon Wishon)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:48:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net> (from
	tputland@charter.net on Wed Jun  8 08:28:52 2011)
	<1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F563663C4B0A7@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>

I've also used a similar set for years.  Have never had one slip.

http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-Bicycle-Hoist-Ceiling-Storage/dp/B001ENZFGQ

Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Marcus Pless
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 9:17 AM
To: Tim
Cc: ShopTalk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles

I'ge got a few hoists similar to the following in my garage:

_http://www.amazon.com/RAD-Cycle-Products-Ceiling-Mount/dp/tags-on-product/B0
00PEURIQ_
<http://www.amazon.com/RAD-Cycle-Products-Ceiling-Mount/dp/tags-on-product/B0
00PEURIQ>

I think I actually bought mine from nashbar.com or Performance Bike but for
some reason their servers aren't responding right now. The only thing you need
to pay attention to is how well the hooks are "hooked"
under the rear of the saddle, which is entirely determined by the design of
your saddle. You can always use an additional piece of velcro to make sure the
hook can't slip. I've never seen the rope/hoist mechanism slip, and people I
know, as well as myself, have been using these things for years. I bolted mine
to 2x4s which are longer than the rafter spacing in my garage and I then just
place them across the rafters like a bridge. That allows me to easily move
them or temporarily take them down if they're in the way for any reason.



On 06/08/2011 08:28:52 AM, Tim wrote:
> In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and
> garage space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five years
> ago!!! The one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I
> was hanging our four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from
> the rafters in the SHOP space as well as above the garage space.
>
> Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100%
> reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun
> Roadster that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim
> Belleville, WI.
> '70 SPL AND SRL
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation
> $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mpless at ucsd.edu
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gwishon at nd.edu

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jun  8 11:26:13 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 13:26:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F563663C4B0A7@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
	<1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
	<9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F563663C4B0A7@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=MoQnHU-9tzmuh_ve7DWkP=3cC0g@mail.gmail.com>

That one looks identical to the RAD one.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Gordon Wishon <gwishon at nd.edu> wrote:
> I've also used a similar set for years.  Have never had one slip.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-Bicycle-Hoist-Ceiling-Storage/dp/B001ENZFGQ
>
> Gordon

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jun  8 11:49:26 2011
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 10:49:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
Message-ID: <20110608174926.GB32162@slack>

On Wed, Jun 08, 2011 at 11:28:52AM -0400, Tim wrote:
 
> Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100% 
> reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun Roadster 
> that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.

I don't have any wall space in my garage, and my wife and I have a  bunch
of bicycles.  I got a free standing stand from Performance (on sale).

You can stack bikes two high and on both sides.  So you maximize
bike storage per unit floor space.

Nothing's fallen off it yet, but if you're in earthquake country
you should fasten it to the ceiling.


Eric

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun  8 12:47:43 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 14:47:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
Message-ID: <OF8C59F837.8712E440-ON852578A9.00683EDA-852578A9.00689FE0@mail.megageek.com>

Tim, how high is the ceiling?  I just use hooks in my garage for the bikes 
and they are solid.  I did build a lowering 10'X5' whiteboard in my 14' 
high garage ceiling with pulleys.  Works fine.

I'm not sure what exactly you are asking about however.

BTW, it doesn't matter how stable the mounting is.  The damage will occur 
when the bike is being put on, or off the ceiling.  So if you don't move 
the cars to do this, nothing will be foolproof.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 





In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and 
garage space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five years 
ago!!! The one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I 
was hanging our four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from the 
rafters in the SHOP space as well as above the garage space.

Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100% 
reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun Roadster 
that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.

From mpless at ucsd.edu  Wed Jun  8 15:37:32 2011
From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 14:37:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <20110608174926.GB32162@slack> (from ericm@lne.com on Wed
	Jun  8 10:49:26 2011)
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
	<20110608174926.GB32162@slack>
Message-ID: <1307569052l.2006l.3l@servo.ucsd.edu>

I've also got one of these free standing racks from Performance Bike
(we've got a few bikes). I bought it a few years ago but I imagine
they're still selling the same unit. Very solid, never had a bike
fall off. I put the most frequently ridden bikes on the free standing
rack and hang the others from the rafters.


On 06/08/2011 10:49:26 AM, Eric Murray wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 08, 2011 at 11:28:52AM -0400, Tim wrote:
>
> > Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be
> 100%
> > reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun
> Roadster
> > that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.
>
> I don't have any wall space in my garage, and my wife and I have a
> bunch
> of bicycles.  I got a free standing stand from Performance (on sale).
>
> You can stack bikes two high and on both sides.  So you maximize
> bike storage per unit floor space.
>
> Nothing's fallen off it yet, but if you're in earthquake country
> you should fasten it to the ceiling.
>
>
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mpless at servo.ucsd.edu

From jmitch at snet.net  Wed Jun  8 16:26:07 2011
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:26:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the hot ticket for a new deck?
Message-ID: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>

    I'm getting ready to replace my old deck, as the pressure treated 
lumber is quite checked and the structure is starting to list a bit.  
It's about 25 years old.  I'm wondering what I should use for materials 
this time.  I want to make it look more upscale for resale appeal, but I 
want to make it as trouble free as possible(meaning I don't want to re 
stain every year.)  I've done some research and the composite decking 
doesn't appear to hold up as well as wood and quite a few other problems 
associated with it's use.  I'm leaning toward Mahogony, but I thought I 
would get your views on what you've used recently.  I live in 
Connecticut, if that makes a difference to material use.   Thanks for 
any insights.     John

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 17:51:11 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 18:51:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the hot ticket for a new deck?
In-Reply-To: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
References: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTin7cek=btZVc42XrxZUsbYY_+Borw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 5:26 PM, John Mitchell <jmitch at snet.net> wrote:
> B  I'm getting ready to replace my old deck, as the pressure treated lumber
> is quite checked and the structure is starting to list a bit. B It's about
25
> years old. B I'm wondering what I should use for materials this time. B I
want
> to make it look more upscale for resale appeal, but I want to make it as
> trouble free as possible(meaning I don't want to re stain every year.)
B I've
> done some research and the composite decking doesn't appear to hold up as
> well as wood and quite a few other problems associated with it's use. B I'm
> leaning toward Mahogony, but I thought I would get your views on what
you've
> used recently. B I live in Connecticut, if that makes a difference to
> material use. B  Thanks for any insights. B  B  John

You'll never get your money back from a deck, and particularly not the
marginal money for something other than standard construction.  So
build something that you like.

Also, keep in mind that deck building codes have changed an awful lot
i the last 25 years, and that your current deck might well not meet
current codes.  Joist hangers, above grade concrete bearing surfaces,
no common nails, improved attachment to the house, and substantial
changes on how the guardrails are done are just a few of the changes.




--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  8 18:09:11 2011
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 17:09:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4DF00F27.9090203@earthlink.net>

Tim - If your hanging area is 8-9 feet high, the low tech method is to 
just put up a pair of hooks and hang the bikes from the rims. Measure 
the distance from hub to hub and space the hooks that far apart. If the 
joists don't line up, put the hooks in a 2x4 and attach it to the 
ceiling joists. I normally hook the back wheel then hook the front one. 
If you alternate the direction of the bikes, you can put them closer 
together.

My hooks are http://www.harborfreight.com/jumbo-bike-utility-hook-47751.html


Brian with 2 bikes over the front of a TR6.

On 6/8/2011 8:28 AM, Tim wrote:
> In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and
> garage space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five years
> ago!!! The one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I
> was hanging our four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from the
> rafters in the SHOP space as well as above the garage space.
>
> Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100%
> reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun Roadster
> that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim
> Belleville, WI.
> '70 SPL AND SRL
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  8 18:50:08 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 17:50:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <4DF00F27.9090203@earthlink.net>
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net>
	<4DF00F27.9090203@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005e01cc263f$2ef6e7b0$8ce4b710$@rr.com>

> Tim - If your hanging area is 8-9 feet high, the low tech method is to
> just put up a pair of hooks and hang the bikes from the rims.

Or even just one hook.  That's how mine are hanging, and it doesn't seem to
have bothered them in 10 years or so.  The bike weighs a lot less than half
of what I do, so I'm not worried about the forces involved.  And by hanging
them opposite directions, I get two bikes in a minimal space.

-- Randall 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  8 18:55:57 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 17:55:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the hot ticket for a new deck?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTin7cek=btZVc42XrxZUsbYY_+Borw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
	<BANLkTin7cek=btZVc42XrxZUsbYY_+Borw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01cc263f$fec2dbc0$fc489340$@rr.com>

> no common nails,

Are "deck" screws still OK?  

I'm also in the middle of partially rebuilding mine but already decided to
go with wood again.  The old one lasted over 40 years with likely no
maintenance at all (certainly none in the past 20 years), which seemed good
enough to me.  (Obviously, I live in a gentle climate.)

And what the building inspector doesn't know won't hurt me <G>

-- Randall 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 19:53:43 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 20:53:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the hot ticket for a new deck?
In-Reply-To: <005f01cc263f$fec2dbc0$fc489340$@rr.com>
References: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
	<BANLkTin7cek=btZVc42XrxZUsbYY_+Borw@mail.gmail.com>
	<005f01cc263f$fec2dbc0$fc489340$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTime-FjzFWy_ag40GTsW7vVE3aaiMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> no common nails,
>
> Are "deck" screws still OK?

For attaching the decking, yes.  For anything else, probably not.
Common nails fall out with weather cycles; ring shank nails (or
various other "threaded" nails) are much bettter at resisting that.  I
think some of the requirements are a bit overkill for most decks, but
not that one.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Wed Jun  8 20:26:43 2011
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:26:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1307556004.7148.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.23.1307556004.7148.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <A53B1CF7F848435C9505C0F8017B0536@delld520>

<<Message: 9
In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and garage
space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five years ago!!! The
one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I was hanging our
four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from the rafters in the SHOP
space as well as above the garage space.

Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100%
reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun Roadster that
would not be happy if a bike fell on them.

Thanks

Tim
Belleville, WI.
'70 SPL AND SRL
>>

I've got a couple of bikes hanging over MY roadster (69 RHD 2000 Fairlady)
with some of the cheapies from Harbor Freight.
http://www.harborfreight.com/bicycle-lift-95803.html 
They are $10 but usually go on sale for $6 or 7.
I tie them off to a cleat, as I trust nothing from HF even if it doesn't
have a motor in it.

Mark Miller
Sebastopol, CA

Who wonders: why doesn't everyone have a roadster?

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Jun  8 20:35:25 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:35:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <005e01cc263f$2ef6e7b0$8ce4b710$@rr.com>
References: <7d697800.18829.1306fded5ce.Webtop.48@charter.net><4DF00F27.9090203@earthlink.net>
	<005e01cc263f$2ef6e7b0$8ce4b710$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <5AD16651FBD949319FC271A9F02D0A81@EntCent>

I use a large hook for each front wheel.  If you alternate the directions
the bikes face, you can hang a few in a relatively small space.

 

Jack

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Wed Jun  8 20:49:00 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:49:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the hot ticket for a new deck?
In-Reply-To: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
References: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
Message-ID: <4DF0349C.3010008@frontier.com>

I had a wood deck on my previous house.  Cedar and PT.  It was ready for 
replacement or major repairs after about 15 years, so we moved....
We're in the PNW, lots of rain and evergreens, and the deck was pretty 
much right under a lot of doug fir and hemlock.  Lots of needles.  I 
usually pressure washed every year or so, and restained it several times 
while we were there, and we were still starting to get rotten deck board 
ends and other deterioration.  It would probably have been good for 
another 5-7 years, but it was getting there.

At our new place (a few miles away, same climate, more cedar and less 
fir) we decided to go with synthetic and had a contractor put on a 
Timber Tech deck.  It's nearly ten years old and no problems.  Sweep and 
hose it annually, although it's probably due for pressure washing soon. 
  The only downside I'm aware of is that the joists need to be on 12" 
centers, and all the screw holes have to be pre drilled.  It's also 
slick on the bottom, so when you put it on a chop saw it just about has 
to be clamped down.  The contractor had to re-do a lot of miters because 
the material slipped.  Whe walking surface is ribbed, and very secure to 
walk on.

John Mitchell wrote:
>   I'm getting ready to replace my old deck, as the pressure treated
> lumber is quite checked and the structure is starting to list a bit.
> It's about 25 years old. I'm wondering what I should use for materials
> this time. I want to make it look more upscale for resale appeal, but I
> want to make it as trouble free as possible(meaning I don't want to re
> stain every year.) I've done some research and the composite decking
> doesn't appear to hold up as well as wood and quite a few other problems
> associated with it's use. I'm leaning toward Mahogony, but I thought I
> would get your views on what you've used recently. I live in
> Connecticut, if that makes a difference to material use. Thanks for any
> insights. John
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From koblinger at verizon.net  Wed Jun  8 21:29:44 2011
From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 20:29:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
In-Reply-To: <1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <1307549817l.2006l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <4DF03E28.4070907@verizon.net>

I bought a pair of the hoists that Harbor Freight sells. They are very 
similar if not identical to the ones shown in the Amazon link that has 
been posted. I found them to be real finicky to get both hooks aligned 
on the bike and keep them hooked properly while hoisting. But, I found a 
way to fix it. I used a piece of 2x2 as a spreader and mounted the hook 
assemblies to each end. With this I can easily hook the handlebars and 
seat with one hand and and maintain tension with the rope in the other 
hand. Once the hooks are set properly, up she goes.  I cut one end of 
the spreader on an angle so that the handlebars are turned a bit when 
lifted. Then the handlebars will fit between my scissor trusses and the 
bike can go higher.

Cheers,
Kurt O.
> On 06/08/2011 08:28:52 AM, Tim wrote:
>> In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and
>> garage space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five years
>> ago!!! The one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I
>> was hanging our four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from
>> the
>> rafters in the SHOP space as well as above the garage space.
>>
>> Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 100%
>> reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun
>> Roadster
>> that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tim
>> Belleville, WI.
>> '70 SPL AND SRL

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Jun  9 04:23:49 2011
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 05:23:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What's the hot ticket for a new deck?
In-Reply-To: <4DF0349C.3010008@frontier.com>
References: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>,<4DF0349C.3010008@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W38F3ED775AF1224E5BC09ACC650@phx.gbl>

The Today show did a piece on decks yesterday.  Their guy really likes the new
man-made stuff.  http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/43325315#43325315
We are going to be putting in a small deck later this summer and will probably
go this way.

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Jun  9 04:52:02 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 06:52:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging bicycles
Message-ID: <79e8f946.57171.1307407bdf3.Webtop.47@charter.net>

I was thinking of just using the hooks I have that came off the removed 
wall. However, I thought it might be nice for my wife of one of my 
daughters if htey could get their own bike down which would not happen 
with hooks in the rafters.

Decisions Decisions
Thanks for all the replies!


On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:

> Tim - If your hanging area is 8-9 feet high, the low tech method is to 
> just put up a pair of hooks and hang the bikes from the rims. Measure 
> the distance from hub to hub and space the hooks that far apart. If 
> the joists don't line up, put the hooks in a 2x4 and attach it to the 
> ceiling joists. I normally hook the back wheel then hook the front 
> one. If you alternate the direction of the bikes, you can put them 
> closer together.
>
> My hooks are 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/jumbo-bike-utility-hook-47751.html
>
>
> Brian with 2 bikes over the front of a TR6.
>
> On 6/8/2011 8:28 AM, Tim wrote:
>> In order to have more space, I took the wall down between my SHOP and
>> garage space--wish I had done this when we bought the place five 
>> years
>> ago!!! The one thing I lost in the process was the wall space where I
>> was hanging our four bicycles. I am thinking about hanging them from 
>> the
>> rafters in the SHOP space as well as above the garage space.
>>
>> Any one out there use or design something I can use? It has to be 
>> 100%
>> reliable as some of the garage space is taken up by two Datsun 
>> Roadster
>> that would not be happy if a bike fell on them.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tim
>> Belleville, WI.
>> '70 SPL AND SRL
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From eabb at loc.gov  Thu Jun  9 06:24:33 2011
From: eabb at loc.gov (Abbondelo, Eugene D)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 08:24:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New query: What's the hot ticket for a new privacy
	fence?
In-Reply-To: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
References: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net>
Message-ID: <5C2B861D64E4994DA897DE5936A54ECA1400E44C3E@LCXCLMB02.LCDS.LOC.GOV>

Along the lines of recent posts on new deck materials to use, I need to
replace my 6' privacy fence which was the old stockade style pressure treated
wood sections.

Would like some opinions on the new non-wood plastic-type fencing available.
Recommended brands, maintenance issues, if any, etc.
Thanks,

Gene

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 07:02:07 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 13:02:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] New query: What's the hot ticket for a new privacy
 fence?
In-Reply-To: <5C2B861D64E4994DA897DE5936A54ECA1400E44C3E@LCXCLMB02.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Message-ID: <325873816.74499.1307624527172.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I'm not much help.  I have a non-treated fir stockade on treated posts that has been up for more than a decade.  Still looks fine.  Weathered, not rotted.  Not much incentive for plastic here.  

I did put up plastic railings on the cedar deck I put over our front steps, though.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com


----- Original Message -----

> From: "Eugene D Abbondelo" <eabb at loc.gov>
> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2011 7:24:33 AM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] New query: What's the hot ticket for a new privacy        fence?
> 
> Along the lines of recent posts on new deck materials to use, I need
> to
> replace my 6' privacy fence which was the old stockade style pressure
> treated
> wood sections.
> 
> Would like some opinions on the new non-wood plastic-type fencing
> available.
> Recommended brands, maintenance issues, if any, etc.
> Thanks,
> 
> Gene

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Jun  9 12:17:55 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 14:17:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Truck Cap Life
In-Reply-To: <4DF0349C.3010008@frontier.com>
References: <4DEFF6FF.8090809@snet.net> <4DF0349C.3010008@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1106091405150.37239@itonami.pair.com>

    I have a four-year old Jason Zone cap on my F150.  It is, basically, 
falling apart over the past few months.  The rivets which attach the 
rear-window-strut bracket sheared.  Those were easy enough to drill out, 
and re-rivet.  All the weather-sealing is shot, to the point were every 
drop of water that hits the cap winds up inside the bed.

    I think that's pathetic, for a ~$1500 4-year-old cap.  Are my 
expectations too high?  It is, theoretically anyway, covered by a limited 
lifetime warranty on the structure, but it's not clear how limited, 
exactly, that is.  The woman I just spoke to at the dealer where I 
purchased it confessed that her Jason cap leaks like a sieve as well, 
which is not what I called to hear.

    Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 14:13:57 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 20:13:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Truck Cap Life
In-Reply-To: <1788154383.98440.1307650381385.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1708193848.98520.1307650437569.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> I have a four-year old Jason Zone cap 

or...

Topper
Canopy
Shell
Camper shell
Camper top

... depending on where you live.

Yeah, four years sucks.  They should be build to the same exterior standard as a camping trailer or motorhome.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jun  9 16:18:53 2011
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 22:18:53 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] under cabinet lighting
Message-ID: <20110609.181853.19737.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>

The wife wants a tile backsplash in the kitchen, so I thought a little
undercabinet lighting while in the vicinity might be nice.
I am guessing it would be more of an accent thing than actual functional/task
lighting.  I was cruising the HDepot and they had several "puck" type
including battery (don't want that), zenon and LED.  I am not looking to put
something up that will be maintenance intensive.   I was surprised at the
variety - florescent, rope lighting, etc.

I saw a Hampton Bay LED product - 10 lights wired, looked like a 12V wall
wart, model 835355 originally $50 marked down to $37 that had potential but
when I got home to check out the specs, couldn't find anything about it.  That
starts to sound like a disposable product, doubt there are replacement LEDs if
I can't even find the product on their web site.  That might not be much
better than a string of small XMAS lights.

Any thoughts or recent experience?

Shop link - maybe I will do something similar in the shop?!?

TIA,
Matt

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Thu Jun  9 16:52:42 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 18:52:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] under cabinet lighting
In-Reply-To: <20110609.181853.19737.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20110609225242.GCX1U.225181.root@cdptpa-web05-z01>

Well you could get a string of LED Christmas lights and use that, or the old rope lights.

There should never be a need to replace an LED, they last something like 100,000 hours if you don't seriously overvolt them.  That isn't to say that the whole product might not be questionable though.


> I saw a Hampton Bay LED product - 10 lights wired, looked like a 12V wall
> wart, model 835355 originally $50 marked down to $37 that had potential but
> when I got home to check out the specs, couldn't find anything about it.  That
> starts to sound like a disposable product, doubt there are replacement LEDs if
> I can't even find the product on their web site.  That might not be much
> better than a string of small XMAS lights.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun  9 17:43:26 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:43:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] under cabinet lighting
In-Reply-To: <20110609225242.GCX1U.225181.root@cdptpa-web05-z01>
References: <20110609.181853.19737.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
	<20110609225242.GCX1U.225181.root@cdptpa-web05-z01>
Message-ID: <020501cc26ff$07a3e800$16ebb800$@rr.com>

> There should never be a need to replace an LED, they last something
> like 100,000 hours if you don't seriously overvolt them.

Possibly it falls under the category of "seriously overvolt", but there seem
to be a lot of high-power LEDs on the market with much shorter average
lifetimes.  

But I have not seen any LED fixtures that intend to allow for user
replacement of the LEDs.  That's not to say you couldn't do it, but it will
probably involve solder and glue.

Interesting paper at
http://www.ledtransformations.com/Lightfair_5-28-08.pdf

-- Randall 

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Thu Jun  9 19:31:21 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 20:31:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] under cabinet lighting
In-Reply-To: <020501cc26ff$07a3e800$16ebb800$@rr.com>
References: <20110609.181853.19737.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
	<20110609225242.GCX1U.225181.root@cdptpa-web05-z01>
	<020501cc26ff$07a3e800$16ebb800$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4DF173E9.4020108@tx.rr.com>

I was interested in the LED flashlights and looked into them for 
awhile.  I found information on 2 different types of LED.  The first is 
the standard LED that comes in a range of sizes and is used as an 
indicator in various electronics, and also used in groups in cheaper 
flashlights.  These things are cheap and require around 1 or 1.5V to 
operate.  The second type are the "high power" Luxeon LED's that are 
used in the more powerful flashlights.  These require upwards of 4V to 
operate.  Usually a flashlight will use only one of these, and they can 
put out a lot of light.  Recently a similar LED has come on the market, 
called the Cree.  The better flashlights will have electronic circuitry 
that will maintain the voltage at the proper level for the LED, and 
these are relatively expensive.  Some flashlights do overdrive the LED's 
a bit in order to get more light out of them.  This shortens the life 
some, but whether the life is 20,000 hours or 50,000 hours or 100,000 
hours probably doesn't really matter, and even without overdriving them 
the Luxeon and Cree LED's can put out a lot of light.  Streamlight, 
Pelican, Surefire, Inova all make good flashlights using these LED's.  
Even the new maglite's with LED's are pretty good lights.

> Possibly it falls under the category of "seriously overvolt", but 
> there seemto be a lot of high-power LEDs on the market with much 
> shorter averagelifetimes.

From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Jun 10 10:11:21 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:11:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] under cabinet lighting
In-Reply-To: <4DF173E9.4020108@tx.rr.com>
References: <20110609.181853.19737.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
	<20110609225242.GCX1U.225181.root@cdptpa-web05-z01>
	<020501cc26ff$07a3e800$16ebb800$@rr.com> <4DF173E9.4020108@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4DF24229.8010904@b2systems.com>

  No financial interest, no nothing, just a extremely satisfied customer.

   Its not cheap but I bought a LED flashlight a few months ago from 
this guy http://www.darksucks.com/  it is by far with NO competition 
from any other flashlight I have ever seen, the brightest thing I have 
ever owned/seen.  He uses the Cree lights, the thing is BRIGHT and 
throws a long ways.  My 4 C cell Mag light throws a beam to my fence at 
about 120-140ft. away, this flashlight illuminates that fence and the 
yard before it (and scares the skunk away before my dog gets to him).

   I started following his blog only for the very cool, very 
informative, great videos of his CNC operation and I was impressed 
enough to buy a light from him... Its now called my "daystick"

     Like I said, no financial interest, no nothing, just a extremely 
satisfied customer.

     mike

On 06/09/2011 06:31 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:
> I was interested in the LED flashlights and looked into them for 
> awhile.  I found information on 2 different types of LED.  The first 
> is the standard LED that comes in a range of sizes and is used as an 
> indicator in various electronics, and also used in groups in cheaper 
> flashlights.  These things are cheap and require around 1 or 1.5V to 
> operate.  The second type are the "high power" Luxeon LED's that are 
> used in the more powerful flashlights.  These require upwards of 4V to 
> operate.  Usually a flashlight will use only one of these, and they 
> can put out a lot of light.  Recently a similar LED has come on the 
> market, called the Cree.  The better flashlights will have electronic 
> circuitry that will maintain the voltage at the proper level for the 
> LED, and these are relatively expensive.  Some flashlights do 
> overdrive the LED's a bit in order to get more light out of them.  
> This shortens the life some, but whether the life is 20,000 hours or 
> 50,000 hours or 100,000 hours probably doesn't really matter, and even 
> without overdriving them the Luxeon and Cree LED's can put out a lot 
> of light.  Streamlight, Pelican, Surefire, Inova all make good 
> flashlights using these LED's.  Even the new maglite's with LED's are 
> pretty good lights.
>
>> Possibly it falls under the category of "seriously overvolt", but 
>> there seemto be a lot of high-power LEDs on the market with much 
>> shorter averagelifetimes.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Fri Jun 10 11:28:17 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 17:28:17 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] under cabinet lighting
In-Reply-To: <4DF24229.8010904@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <20110610172817.EZC0L.140660.root@cdptpa-web01-z02>

He has combined a lot of the latest stuff-
Cree LED, 18650 rechargeable LiIon battery, small form factor, electronic driver circuit.  With good craftsmanship no doubt it would be a good light.  If it gets too hot in 10 minutes then he might be on the verge of going too far.  Hand that to someone that doesn't know what they are doing and they can get in trouble.

I didn't get to the point of looking at his prices but with Streamlight, Pelican or Inova you will pay $100+ for similar features, with Surefire you will pay probably twice that, and those lights are all a bit less powerful.

I built what is called a "mag-85".  You take a common maglite, modify its socket/reflector/lens to resist heat, put in 8 or 9 high current AA NiMh batteries, and an 1185 medical builb, and you have a 30 or more watt bulb in your hand.  Lay it down on a car seat and it will melt through it.  I heard of someone that had one, a friend was over and wanted a light to go look for something in their car, he said "just pick one of those over there".  They picked the mag85, laid it on the seat while they were looking around, and burned a hole in their seat.

 
>   No financial interest, no nothing, just a extremely satisfied customer.
> 
>    Its not cheap but I bought a LED flashlight a few months ago from 
> this guy http://www.darksucks.com/  it is by far with NO competition 
> from any other flashlight I have ever seen, the brightest thing I have 
> ever owned/seen.  He uses the Cree lights, the thing is BRIGHT and 
> throws a long ways.  My 4 C cell Mag light throws a beam to my fence at 
> about 120-140ft. away, this flashlight illuminates that fence and the 
> yard before it (and scares the skunk away before my dog gets to him).
> 
>    I started following his blog only for the very cool, very 
> informative, great videos of his CNC operation and I was impressed 
> enough to buy a light from him... Its now called my "daystick"
> 
>      Like I said, no financial interest, no nothing, just a extremely 
> satisfied customer.
> 
>      mike
> 
> On 06/09/2011 06:31 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:
> > I was interested in the LED flashlights and looked into them for 
> > awhile.  I found information on 2 different types of LED.  The first 
> > is the standard LED that comes in a range of sizes and is used as an 
> > indicator in various electronics, and also used in groups in cheaper 
> > flashlights.  These things are cheap and require around 1 or 1.5V to 
> > operate.  The second type are the "high power" Luxeon LED's that are 
> > used in the more powerful flashlights.  These require upwards of 4V to 
> > operate.  Usually a flashlight will use only one of these, and they 
> > can put out a lot of light.  Recently a similar LED has come on the 
> > market, called the Cree.  The better flashlights will have electronic 
> > circuitry that will maintain the voltage at the proper level for the 
> > LED, and these are relatively expensive.  Some flashlights do 
> > overdrive the LED's a bit in order to get more light out of them.  
> > This shortens the life some, but whether the life is 20,000 hours or 
> > 50,000 hours or 100,000 hours probably doesn't really matter, and even 
> > without overdriving them the Luxeon and Cree LED's can put out a lot 
> > of light.  Streamlight, Pelican, Surefire, Inova all make good 
> > flashlights using these LED's.  Even the new maglite's with LED's are 
> > pretty good lights.
> >
> >> Possibly it falls under the category of "seriously overvolt", but 
> >> there seemto be a lot of high-power LEDs on the market with much 
> >> shorter averagelifetimes.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 11 11:35:45 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 10:35:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] [TR] Junk Email to list
In-Reply-To: <181B16E009EB44C5A9AA0C36FA2E0C29@Vista>
References: <181B16E009EB44C5A9AA0C36FA2E0C29@Vista>
Message-ID: <002f01cc285d$ff398110$0301a8c0@randall>

Joe Curry wrote:
> This morning I had 42 Spam emails in my inbox all addressed 
> to the Triumph and Spitfire lists as well as at least one 
> individual.  I am wondering if others have received these as 
> well or just me and the others whose individual address were 
> on the "TO" line.

I got a bunch of them too, but they were addressed to me.  The header shows
they came directly through Yahoo! mail, and not through the Team.Net server.
Didn't have the [TR} or [shop-talk] tags in the subject line either.

Curiously enough, they don't seem to have come from the same original
machine either.  Either the header is partially faked, or it was some sort
of "time bomb" virus on a bunch of machines.

-- Randall  

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 11 18:24:05 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:24:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] [TR] Junk Email to list
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP86555EC402E2345FE833D2CB670@phx.gbl>
References: <20110611.155723.192.3.maya2blue@juno.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP86555EC402E2345FE833D2CB670@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00df01cc2897$0a346380$0301a8c0@randall>

> Likewise.  Is someone going to fix this?   Otherwise, I am 
> planning on unsubscribing.   

"Someone" probably won't, but I'll bet you can fix it yourself.  Go to
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs
Log in and set digest mode back to 'On'.

Please remember, these lists are maintained and operated by an unpaid,
underappreciated volunteer who has been the "man behind the curtain" for
many years.  It's unfortunate there was a big server crash, but I think he
did an outstanding job of getting the lists back on the air (in spite of
being sick at the time).  No doubt there were some things lost in the crash,
like your "Digest Mode" options; but I think it is unreasonable to expect
him to "fix" everyone's account (especially since I don't think he's home
from Laguna Seca yet, nor does he usually read this list).

And the spam almost certainly has nothing to do with either your options
being lost, or the list server itself.  Someone's PC got hacked/infected,
not the list server.

-- Randall  

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sat Jun 11 21:00:50 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:00:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] [TR] Junk Email to list
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=VRyv-qGJD0jS=ZGeTuytg36WOaw@mail.gmail.com>

For what it's worth, I haven't seen any spam on this email address, and I
don't have any spam-blockers running. So it's not everybody.

And as always, thanks to MJB for everything.
On Jun 11, 2011 10:53 PM, "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Jun 11 21:23:33 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:23:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy-Acetylene for soldering copper pipes?
Message-ID: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I need to solder some 1-1/2" bronze drain pipe fittings like this:

http://bit.ly/jopSXO

in a sort of tight spot. I have one of those common Bernzomatic
propane torches, but I am worried that I'll set the house on fire
before I get the joint hot enough.  I also have a mini oxy-acetylene
set, with #0, 1, and 2 nozzles.  Could that do a better job?  Or is
oxy-acetylene simply too hot for soldering?  Could I end up melting
the pipes, even with a small flame?

Thanks,
Doug

From Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM  Sun Jun 12 06:30:53 2011
From: Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM (Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 05:30:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk]
 =?utf-8?q?Oxy-Acetylene_for_soldering_copper_pipes=3F?=
Message-ID: <20110612053053.997a8624c2b4dae4e01298000bf07581.fce7704f38.wbe@email00.secureserver.net>


From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Jun 12 09:11:27 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:11:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy-Acetylene for soldering copper pipes?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimEBDEf53+8DPy393w6ZMj+OJY=PQ@mail.gmail.com>

*I'd go with your acetylene rig and the "0" tip (or buy a 00 or even a 000)
and keep the flame size moderate . . try to practice on a similar piece in a
safe place first so you can recognize what's happening as you bring the heat
up.
*
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Douglas Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I need to solder some 1-1/2" bronze drain pipe fittings like this:
>
> http://bit.ly/jopSXO
>
> in a sort of tight spot. I have one of those common Bernzomatic
> propane torches, but I am worried that I'll set the house on fire
> before I get the joint hot enough.  I also have a mini oxy-acetylene
> set, with #0, 1, and 2 nozzles.  Could that do a better job?  Or is
> oxy-acetylene simply too hot for soldering?  Could I end up melting
> the pipes, even with a small flame?
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sun Jun 12 09:17:22 2011
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 08:17:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy-Acetylene for soldering copper pipes?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DF4D882.3010602@earthlink.net>

Doug - You can buy a special heat resistant shield that is like a heavy 
cloth (Home Depot SKU # 411396 for $17.89), but if it is just a few 
applications, you can probably get by something you already have at 
home.  When I had about 6 inches to wood behind the fitting, I just used 
a double layer of aluminum foil and a thumb tack.

I had another time when I needed to 1/2 copper attached to in a 2x4 
under a sink.  On that one, I just bent a small section of metal 
flashing and aimed the torch parallel to the stud.  You could add a 
little fiberglass insulation behind the metal if you were concerned.

These ideas would be good for wood, drywall, and plaster.  If you have 
electrical wire or other delicate items nearby, you probably need more.

Have a spray bottle of water and a fire extinguisher with you for safety 
and stick around for a while afterwords to make sure nothing was smoldering.

Many propane torches are also capable of running Max Power Propylene 
(MAPP) gas, which puts out more heat, so that may also be an option.

Brian

On 6/11/2011 8:23 PM, Douglas Braun wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I need to solder some 1-1/2" bronze drain pipe fittings like this:
>
> http://bit.ly/jopSXO
>
> in a sort of tight spot. I have one of those common Bernzomatic
> propane torches, but I am worried that I'll set the house on fire
> before I get the joint hot enough.  I also have a mini oxy-acetylene
> set, with #0, 1, and 2 nozzles.  Could that do a better job?  Or is
> oxy-acetylene simply too hot for soldering?  Could I end up melting
> the pipes, even with a small flame?
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jun 12 10:20:56 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:20:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy-Acetylene for soldering copper pipes?
In-Reply-To: <4DF4D882.3010602@earthlink.net>
References: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DF4D882.3010602@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinctfsyA=uK=59zDJcY9J7ZwgEaPA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the advice-  I used a piece of fiberglass cloth I had lying
around, and nothing got singed.  I used the oxy-acetylene torch, but
it was probably not the best choice, since the jet of hot gas seems to
go out pretty far, sort of like a light saber.  But fortunately the
tip is small and it was easy to manuver it so that nothing flammable
was in its way.

At one point I had to clean off a glob of melted solder with a small
stainless steel wire brush, and the torch accidentally melted a few of
its strands.  I don't think you have to worry about that with propane!

Doug

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Sun Jun 12 12:47:10 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:47:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oxy-Acetylene for soldering copper pipes?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTikhwVi3hd4MtU2jYkTxsezXAat4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DF509AE.2070600@frontier.com>

When I put my air system in my shop I sweated all the lines (1/2 and 
3/4") with an O/A torch and didn't melt anything.  Just keep it moving 
and keep the flame small.  It goes really fast.

Douglas Braun wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I need to solder some 1-1/2" bronze drain pipe fittings like this:
>
> http://bit.ly/jopSXO
>
> in a sort of tight spot. I have one of those common Bernzomatic
> propane torches, but I am worried that I'll set the house on fire
> before I get the joint hot enough.  I also have a mini oxy-acetylene
> set, with #0, 1, and 2 nozzles.  Could that do a better job?  Or is
> oxy-acetylene simply too hot for soldering?  Could I end up melting
> the pipes, even with a small flame?
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun 13 06:10:06 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:10:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps stuff update
Message-ID: <F38E72D985D14B11B443776A6EFC253E@OwnerPC>

Well.... looked all around and found that finding the best deal is about it...
they all have most of the same features and comparable prices...  I chose two
criteria for making a decision on one...

I needed to be able to see it driving (63 y.o eyes) and it had to have a hook.

Costco sent my coupon book for June/July and there was a Magellan 9020
Roadmate for 50 bucks off with free lifetime traffic and maps.  The 9020 is a
7" unit and even sitting at the windshield it's easy to read from the drivers
seat. Plenty bright display.. It has a nice clear voice (haven't named her
yet) and it even finds private roads that don't have names or don't show on
maps.  i.e. roads inside our steel mill.  I've only programmed in one short
trip to test and it worked perfectly, chose the route I'd have taken.  The
only problem is I punched in the wrong house number and it arrived 1/4 mile
before I did !!!  operator error.

The only downside I see is... it's big !  I know I said that was a plus... but
it's big ...like easy to spot and a likely breakin item.  a case has been
ordered and it will be out of side when parked from now on.  It will fit
nicely in the console.  It comes with a windshield magnet, but I opted for a
sticky pad for the dash... it blocks less windshield there.  Fold a piece of
copy paper in half top to bottom... that's it's footprint.  Higher in the
windshield would block a possible 'situation' I might need to see

I need to plan a road trip and put it through it's paces... it does have
multiple stops as an option and 6 brazillian p.o.i.s .   We'll see what it
offers using a different route to the coast this weekend...

end of update... we now return you to your regular programming

john

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun 13 07:26:21 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 08:26:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] a 35 dollar engine stand
Message-ID: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>

for those that might be interested .

My BEST DAMN ENGINE STAND MONEY CAN'T BUY is complete.  While the total
investment is $35 (and a few favors).... I think I've got one worth a little
more than that... truly 460 worthy.


http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/enginestand/BDES.html

later
John

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 13 20:23:34 2011
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:23:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] a 35 dollar engine stand
In-Reply-To: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <658173.47230.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

John,

I am very impressed. It is a great piece of work...congratulations.
 best,


doug
____________________



________________________________
From: john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
To: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Mon, June 13, 2011 6:26:21 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] a 35 dollar engine stand

for those that might be interested .

My BEST DAMN ENGINE STAND MONEY CAN'T BUY is complete.  While the total
investment is $35 (and a few favors).... I think I've got one worth a little
more than that... truly 460 worthy.


http://jniolon.classicpickup.com/enginestand/BDES.html

later
John
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at pacbell.net

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jun 14 06:12:21 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 08:12:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop ideas for a mobility scooter.
Message-ID: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>

OK, you know the little scooters that people are riding around on now. 
Rascals and such.

I just ended up with a used one and before I "put it up on the block" I 
was wondering if anyone had any cool ideas that I could use this for. 
Making it remote control would be trivial.

But does anyone have any ideas on what to make with it?

Here is the one I have...

>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pride-Mobility-3-Wheel-Legend-Electric-Scooter-/370316398640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563893d030#ht_2880wt_1139
<

Of course, all work will be done in the Garage M'hal, so this is shop 
related.  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From burdickm at mindspring.com  Tue Jun 14 08:08:23 2011
From: burdickm at mindspring.com (Michael Burdick)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine stand for Ford big block
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinWL0810oH1qqovnEj1u-4Puf4p3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinWL0810oH1qqovnEj1u-4Puf4p3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik+O7xD6zHhJ4xexiThxwJ1VpbjWQ@mail.gmail.com>

I need to rebuild the engine in my truck, and am looking for guidance
on engine stands.  The engine is a '93 7.5L (460ci) big block - cast
iron block and heads.

I have a generic 3 wheeled stand (750 lb rating?) that supported a
Stag engine, but it seemed to be pretty close to it's working limit as
the engine bounced around a lot as I was working on it, and I worried
about tipping over when rolling it around.  I'm considering a folding,
4 wheeled 1250lb stand from Northern with a geared head.  Is that
going to be sufficient?

Thanks in advance for any input,

Mike Burdick
Durham, NC

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jun 14 08:41:26 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:41:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine stand for Ford big block
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik+O7xD6zHhJ4xexiThxwJ1VpbjWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinWL0810oH1qqovnEj1u-4Puf4p3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTik+O7xD6zHhJ4xexiThxwJ1VpbjWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DF77316.6070905@xxiii.com>

On 6/14/2011 10:08 AM, Michael Burdick wrote:
> I need to rebuild the engine in my truck, and am looking for guidance
> on engine stands.  The engine is a '93 7.5L (460ci) big block - cast

I don't have experience with any of them.  But Summit Racing has really 
stepped up their selection of tools.  They're showing 11 models, some 
quite beefy and expensive.  They have a tool catalog that's worth 
ordering too.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Engine-Stands/?keyword=engine+stand&kr=engine+stand

-Wayne

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun 14 09:16:53 2011
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 08:16:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine stand
In-Reply-To: <4DF77316.6070905@xxiii.com>
References: <BANLkTinWL0810oH1qqovnEj1u-4Puf4p3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTik+O7xD6zHhJ4xexiThxwJ1VpbjWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DF77316.6070905@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <969736.69764.qm@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Speaking of enigne stands, does anyone have a way to convert a standard head
stand to a geared type?  



Randy

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun 14 09:31:54 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 08:31:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop ideas for a mobility scooter.
In-Reply-To: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <02f401cc2aa8$30fb7540$0301a8c0@randall>

> But does anyone have any ideas on what to make with it?

I've occasionally thought that a robotic shopping cart would be cool.  Set
it up to follow a fob at a certain distance, say 2-3 feet and let it follow
you around through the swap meet to carry your purchases.

-- Randall  

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Jun 14 09:42:06 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:42:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine stand for Ford big block
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik+O7xD6zHhJ4xexiThxwJ1VpbjWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinWL0810oH1qqovnEj1u-4Puf4p3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTik+O7xD6zHhJ4xexiThxwJ1VpbjWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EAD0856903248FC8DA48E4CC1F94F87@OwnerPC>

Michael,

a 460 will weigh in between 700 and 800 #s fully dressed...  a 1250# stand 
will certainly hold it but depending on the rotating part... turning it 
might be difficult... that's why I built one...   I'd stay away from 3 
legged stands (or T-bases... that aren't that stable...

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Burdick" <burdickm at mindspring.com>
To: "ShopTalk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine stand for Ford big block


>I need to rebuild the engine in my truck, and am looking for guidance
> on engine stands.  The engine is a '93 7.5L (460ci) big block - cast
> iron block and heads.
>
> I have a generic 3 wheeled stand (750 lb rating?) that supported a
> Stag engine, but it seemed to be pretty close to it's working limit as
> the engine bounced around a lot as I was working on it, and I worried
> about tipping over when rolling it around.  I'm considering a folding,
> 4 wheeled 1250lb stand from Northern with a geared head.  Is that
> going to be sufficient?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input,
>
> Mike Burdick
> Durham, NC
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3703 - Release Date: 06/14/11

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jun 14 09:57:36 2011
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 08:57:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop ideas for a mobility scooter.
Message-ID: <4DF784F0.9070506@milleredp.com>

> I've occasionally thought that a robotic shopping cart would be cool.
> Set it up to follow a fob at a certain distance, say 2-3 feet and let
> it follow you around through the swap meet to carry your purchases.


Would have to have enough sensors and smarts not to run into/over stuff,
lest you forget to push the 'off' button before you step into some guy's
rows of stuff and it lunges forward and squashes some six-hundred-dollar
piece of '54 Corvette unobtanium he's got out front.

John.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun 14 11:44:23 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:44:23 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop ideas for a mobility scooter.
In-Reply-To: <4DF784CE.1090802@milleredp.com>
References: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>
	<02f401cc2aa8$30fb7540$0301a8c0@randall>
	<4DF784CE.1090802@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <010c01cc2aba$b52387b0$1f6a9710$@rr.com>

> Would have to have enough sensors and smarts not to run into/over
> stuff,
> lest you forget to push the 'off' button

I could see arguments both ways on that.  After all, the Toyota that wiped
out my 59 Triumph didn't have sensors or smarts when the driver "forgot" to
stop.

But ultrasonic sonar proximity detectors are pretty old hat these days; so
it shouldn't be hard at all to add something.  I was reading an article in
Nuts & Volts last night, where the author just mentioned in passing that he
added sonar sensors, and then went on talking about the robot kit he was
reviewing.
http://www.parallax.com/tabid/768/ProductID/92/Default.aspx

-- Randall 

From berry at kerch.com  Tue Jun 14 18:10:38 2011
From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:10:38 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop ideas for a mobility scooter.
In-Reply-To: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikNZHgL7J8RmyJDcWkD4j6p7Gfzcg@mail.gmail.com>

If you're a Dr. Who geek you could make a Dalek.

On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 5:12 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> OK, you know the little scooters that people are riding around on now.
> Rascals and such.
>
> I just ended up with a used one and before I "put it up on the block" I
> was wondering if anyone had any cool ideas that I could use this for.
> Making it remote control would be trivial.
>
> But does anyone have any ideas on what to make with it?
>
> Here is the one I have...
>
> >
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Pride-Mobility-3-Wheel-Legend-Electric-Scooter-/370316398640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563893d030#ht_2880wt_1139
> <
>
> Of course, all work will be done in the Garage M'hal, so this is shop
> related.  8>)
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/berry at kerch.com

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Tue Jun 14 18:58:57 2011
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 20:58:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop ideas for a mobility scooter.
In-Reply-To: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF3ED03D8.7BC78757-ON852578AF.00442B9D-852578AF.0044723D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DF803D1.1060600@comcast.net>

On 6/14/2011 8:12 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, you know the little scooters that people are riding around on now.
> Rascals and such.
>
> I just ended up with a used one and before I "put it up on the block" I
> was wondering if anyone had any cool ideas that I could use this for.
> Making it remote control would be trivial.
>
> But does anyone have any ideas on what to make with it?
>
> Here is the one I have...

Electric wheel barrow for around the yard.


> http://cgi.ebay.com/Pride-Mobility-3-Wheel-Legend-Electric-Scooter-/370316398640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563893d030#ht_2880wt_1139
> <
>
> Of course, all work will be done in the Garage M'hal, so this is shop
> related.  8>)
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Wed Jun 15 22:18:04 2011
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:18:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] scooter use
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1308160804.17655.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.23.1308160804.17655.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <65EDDB2E5889453DAB7C45650E33E294@delld520>

Here is a link to some mobile cupcakes from the Maker Faire based on
scooters:

http://www.google.com/search?q=cupcake+maker+faire&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:I
E-SearchBox&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1276&
bih=829



On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 5:12 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> OK, you know the little scooters that people are riding around on now.
> Rascals and such.
>
> I just ended up with a used one and before I "put it up on the block" I
> was wondering if anyone had any cool ideas that I could use this for.
> Making it remote control would be trivial.
>
> But does anyone have any ideas on what to make with it?
>
> Here is the one I have...
>
> >
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pride-Mobility-3-Wheel-Legend-Electric-Scooter-/37031639
8640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563893d030#ht_2880wt_1139
> <

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 15 23:29:47 2011
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:29:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] gps direction
In-Reply-To: <OF260F4222.4404BFF6-ON852578A7.0074AE1C-852578A7.0074BB7D@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <0LMD00CDJXT3EVC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<OF260F4222.4404BFF6-ON852578A7.0074AE1C-852578A7.0074BB7D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20110616012913.072c0128@yahoo.com>

nag-ri-vator

or

navi-grater



At 06/06/11 at 19:59, Shakespearean monkeys danced on 
eric at megageek.com's keyboard and said:
>I call mine "The Nag-a-vator!"  8>)


Cheers!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jun 19 08:05:03 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:05:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>

I'm working on a '40 Packard's carb.  The float bowl cover is held on with 5
screws.  3 of the holes (in the bottom part of the carb - float bowl) 
are stripped.

So I'm looking for an easy way to fix them.

I've done a google search, and found 2 basic methods:

1. use a heli coil

2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt.  Once the epoxy has cured, 
unscrew the screw.

Wondering what you guys have done?

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jun 19 09:17:55 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:17:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4DFE1323.4050201@xxiii.com>

On 6/19/2011 10:05 AM, John T. Blair wrote:
> I'm working on a '40 Packard's carb. The float bowl cover is held on with 5
> screws. 3 of the holes (in the bottom part of the carb - float bowl) are
> stripped.
> So I'm looking for an easy way to fix them.

Lucky You!  Sounds like a good excuse to go INJECTION!

http://www.megasquirt.info/

-wayne (loather of carbs)

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Jun 19 10:00:38 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:00:38 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
Message-ID: <4DFE1D26.9060504@comcast.net>

Folks,

I have a 2008 Mustang GT (Bullitt model).  To my surprise, the front tires seem to wear more on the inside than the 
outside, which is unexpected since I try to spend as much time on the outside of the tread as possible (if you get my 
'drift').

Anyone have similar car with same issue?  Is this more common on 'modern' cars?  My other/previous vehicles always had 
more wear on the outside of the tread.  Is this car biased towards more negative camber in turns?  I do rotate regularly 
(front-to-back, rear crossover).

The wear seems consistent on both sides, and there is no cupping so I think alignment is probably OK (but I'll get it 
checked when I re-shod the car).

Bob

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 19 10:37:57 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:37:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
Message-ID: <004501cc2e9f$3f51b960$0301a8c0@randall>

> 2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt.  Once the epoxy has cured, 
> unscrew the screw.

Although I've not tried that on a carb, I have in other places where the
loading was light.  The JB Weld is still too weak to take threads, IMO.
Loctite makes a similar product specifically for repairing threads:
http://media.midwayusa.com/pdf/instructions/Loctite_stripped_threads.pdf
which comes with a chart of allowable torque values for the 'repaired'
thread.  23 INCH pounds for a 1/4" bolt isn't much!

So if you can find a Helicoil in the appropriate size, that would be my
suggestion.  They aren't cheap, but the repaired threads are actually
stronger than the originals, especially in soft metals like carb bodies.

-- Randall  

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Jun 19 11:00:30 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:00:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <4DFE1323.4050201@xxiii.com>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC><6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<4DFE1323.4050201@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <D40B194276BC40D8A18CECB5826ABA64@EntCent>

+1 for Megasquirt!!! 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 8:18 AM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb

On 6/19/2011 10:05 AM, John T. Blair wrote:
> I'm working on a '40 Packard's carb. The float bowl cover is held on with
5
> screws. 3 of the holes (in the bottom part of the carb - float bowl) are
> stripped.
> So I'm looking for an easy way to fix them.

Lucky You!  Sounds like a good excuse to go INJECTION!

http://www.megasquirt.info/

-wayne (loather of carbs)
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From berry at kerch.com  Sun Jun 19 11:13:42 2011
From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:13:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
Message-ID: <816C86FC-EF2C-4F2F-AB50-566438FBDA16@kerch.com>

Or 3. Just drill and tap the holes for the next larger bolt if there's enough
metal.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 19, 2011, at 7:05 AM, "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> So I'm looking for an easy way to fix them.
>
> I've done a google search, and found 2 basic methods:
>
> 1. use a heli coil
>
> 2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt.  Once the epoxy has cured, unscrew the
screw.

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Jun 19 11:28:59 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:28:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <004501cc2e9f$3f51b960$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<004501cc2e9f$3f51b960$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <4DFE31DB.3040906@comcast.net>

re: "... the repaired threads are actually stronger than the originals, especially in soft metals like carb bodies ..."

I like thread inserts, but I've given this a lot of thought because I sometimes use them in critical applications (shock 
mounts where the Armstrong shock is actually the upper suspension arm).  While a steel thread is stronger than soft 
metal threads, the joint itself can only be as strong as the weakest part; i.e. at some load the screw/bolt will pull 
the insert out of the brass or other soft metal.

Anyway, I think what you meant is the threads themselves are stronger--i.e. less likely to strip--which should be the case.

BTW, I used the Locktite product to 'fabricate' new threads for a clutch slave cylinder mount on an aluminum housing, 
and with a little trial-and-error was able to get pretty good torque on the bolts.  I will, however, install inserts 
next time the gearbox is out of the car (an Austin-Healey 3000).

Bob


On 6/19/2011 9:37 AM, Randall wrote:
>> 2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt.  Once the epoxy has cured,
>> unscrew the screw.
> Although I've not tried that on a carb, I have in other places where the
> loading was light.  The JB Weld is still too weak to take threads, IMO.
> Loctite makes a similar product specifically for repairing threads:
> http://media.midwayusa.com/pdf/instructions/Loctite_stripped_threads.pdf
> which comes with a chart of allowable torque values for the 'repaired'
> thread.  23 INCH pounds for a 1/4" bolt isn't much!
>
> So if you can find a Helicoil in the appropriate size, that would be my
> suggestion.  They aren't cheap, but the repaired threads are actually
> stronger than the originals, especially in soft metals like carb bodies.
>
> -- Randall
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 19 11:52:36 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:52:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <4DFE31DB.3040906@comcast.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<004501cc2e9f$3f51b960$0301a8c0@randall>
	<4DFE31DB.3040906@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000301cc2ea9$accc1b70$0301a8c0@randall>

> While a steel thread is stronger than soft 
> metal threads, the joint itself can only be as strong as the 
> weakest part; i.e. at some load the screw/bolt will pull 
> the insert out of the brass or other soft metal.

No argument from me.  My point was just that the Helicoil approach results
in slightly stronger threads (more resistance to pull-out) than original;
while JB Weld isn't as strong as even the usual "pot metal" alloy used for
carbs.  The JB Weld will fail before the pot metal does; while the Helicoil
will come out intact.

-- Randall  

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Sun Jun 19 12:35:08 2011
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:35:08 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <4DFE31DB.3040906@comcast.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<004501cc2e9f$3f51b960$0301a8c0@randall>
	<4DFE31DB.3040906@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4DFE415C.2070401@talktalk.net>

An insert can result in a stronger fastening since the thread into the 
soft metal (ie the outside of the insert) is a larger diameter - hence 
more bearing area. Much the same effect as going up a bolt size. Some 
fixings use a helicoil or equivalent from new for this very reason.
Neil

On 19/06/2011 18:28, Bob Spidell wrote:
> re: "... the repaired threads are actually stronger than the 
> originals, especially in soft metals like carb bodies ..."
>
> I like thread inserts, but I've given this a lot of thought because I 
> sometimes use them in critical applications (shock mounts where the 
> Armstrong shock is actually the upper suspension arm).  While a steel 
> thread is stronger than soft metal threads, the joint itself can only 
> be as strong as the weakest part; i.e. at some load the screw/bolt 
> will pull the insert out of the brass or other soft metal.
>
> Anyway, I think what you meant is the threads themselves are 
> stronger--i.e. less likely to strip--which should be the case.
>
> BTW, I used the Locktite product to 'fabricate' new threads for a 
> clutch slave cylinder mount on an aluminum housing, and with a little 
> trial-and-error was able to get pretty good torque on the bolts.  I 
> will, however, install inserts next time the gearbox is out of the car 
> (an Austin-Healey 3000).
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 6/19/2011 9:37 AM, Randall wrote:
>>> 2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt.  Once the epoxy has cured,
>>> unscrew the screw.
>> Although I've not tried that on a carb, I have in other places where the
>> loading was light.  The JB Weld is still too weak to take threads, IMO.
>> Loctite makes a similar product specifically for repairing threads:
>> http://media.midwayusa.com/pdf/instructions/Loctite_stripped_threads.pdf
>> which comes with a chart of allowable torque values for the 'repaired'
>> thread.  23 INCH pounds for a 1/4" bolt isn't much!
>>
>> So if you can find a Helicoil in the appropriate size, that would be my
>> suggestion.  They aren't cheap, but the repaired threads are actually
>> stronger than the originals, especially in soft metals like carb bodies.
>>
>> -- Randall

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Sun Jun 19 12:59:00 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:59:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4DFE46F4.6070600@frontier.com>

I'll throw in another recommendation for some sort of insert or 
rethreading one size up.  I have used JB Weld a lot, and while it's good 
as a filler and in compression, my results with it in shear or tension 
have not been good at all.

John T. Blair wrote:
> I'm working on a '40 Packard's carb.  The float bowl cover is held on
> with 5
> screws. 3 of the holes (in the bottom part of the carb - float bowl) are
> stripped.
>
> So I'm looking for an easy way to fix them.
>
> I've done a google search, and found 2 basic methods:
>
> 1. use a heli coil
>
> 2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt. Once the epoxy has cured, unscrew
> the screw.
>
> Wondering what you guys have done?
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone: (757) 495-8229
>
> 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
> 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III
> 65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin: www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Jun 19 17:55:21 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 18:55:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <4DFE46F4.6070600@frontier.com>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<4DFE46F4.6070600@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTin9AYEOY3burT8XEOMxtYO42zAiCA@mail.gmail.com>

*Free advice and worth every penny:*
*I'd take that carburetor body to a cycle or outboard shop where they do
helicoils all the time and install all five . . you get a strong repair, you
will retain the original look with original screws, you won't have to drill
out the holes in the top like you would for bigger screws, no stress on your
part, what's not to like, it's only money?!?!*
*Tony - often wrong but always positive *
*

*
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 1:59 PM, David C. <cavanadd at frontier.com> wrote:

> I'll throw in another recommendation for some sort of insert or rethreading
> one size up.  I have used JB Weld a lot, and while it's good as a filler and
> in compression, my results with it in shear or tension have not been good at
> all.
>
> John T. Blair wrote:
>
>>  I'm working on a '40 Packard's carb.  The float bowl cover is held on
>> with 5
>> screws. 3 of the holes (in the bottom part of the carb - float bowl) are
>> stripped.
>>
>> So I'm looking for an easy way to fix them.
>>
>> I've done a google search, and found 2 basic methods:
>>
>> 1. use a heli coil
>>
>> 2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt. Once the epoxy has cured, unscrew
>> the screw.
>>
>> Wondering what you guys have done?
>>
>> John
>>
>> John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net
>> Va. Beach, Va
>> Phone: (757) 495-8229
>>
>> 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>> 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III
>> 65 Rambler Classic
>>
>> Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan
>> Bricklin: www.bricklin.org
>>
>> If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
>> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>> ______________________________**_________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/**options/shop-talk/cavanadd@**frontier.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com>
>>
>  ______________________________**_________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/shop-talk/eltonclark@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com>

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sun Jun 19 18:37:07 2011
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:37:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Dave Despain 0n Assignment - Shelby
Message-ID: <BANLkTinSK-xE5SHKXn2Sga0ezXAZ7CHNfw@mail.gmail.com>

For the past few months SpeedTV has aired a series of "Dave Despain on
Assignment" programs, mostly centered around NASCAR. Even though I'm solidly
of the Right & Left turn persuasion, the programs have been very interesting
and very well produced. The latest in the series highlights Carroll Shelby
and it is excellent. I'll admit to a bit of prejudice because Pete Brock
(Brock Racing Enterprises) is prominently featured in the show as the
designer of the Cobra Daytona Coupe (in case anyone didn't already know
that!).

My wife and I have played with vintage Datsuns since they weren't vintage,
buying our first (a 2000 Roadster) new in '70. We soon bought a '71 510 to
accommodate our growing family. I actually bought a suspension setup  for
the 510 from Pete in January '73 while on my way to NorCal to catch a flight
to my new Air Force assignment at Hickam AFB. A little over a year ago I
spent most of a week with the Brocks and many of the BRE team members at
Road Atlanta during the 2010 edition Mitty Classic, shooting stills and
video for a yet to be released BRE DVD. We currently have a '70 2000 (for
sale, in case anyone's interested) and a pair of 510 2 door sedans (in
storage).

The Despain program is scheduled to air again, Friday, June 24 @ noon (CDT)

-- 
Ron

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Jun 19 19:36:01 2011
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:36:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
Message-ID: <7E726DE0801147F2BDCF13281A43E1D9@EricJRussellPC>

I would vote for the heli coil or some sort of thread insert repair. The JB 
weld is for the 
'slap-it-together-long-enough-to-unload-it-on-an-unsuspecting-buyer' repair. 
The heli coil allows you to use the original size screws and will be as 
strong/stronger than before.

That said, I once used the Permatex thread repair kit - an epoxy material - 
to fix a manifold bolt thread on a straight 6 in a '75 Chevy pick up. I did 
not have access to make a proper repair (not enough room to drill/tap for 
thread insert with the engine in the truck). That repair lasted a few years 
until I eventually sold the truck.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 

> 1. use a heli coil
>
> 2. us JB weld with soap on the bolt.  Once the epoxy has cured, unscrew 
> the screw.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Jun 19 21:10:26 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 22:10:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <816C86FC-EF2C-4F2F-AB50-566438FBDA16@kerch.com>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<816C86FC-EF2C-4F2F-AB50-566438FBDA16@kerch.com>
Message-ID: <4DFEBA22.10604@tx.rr.com>

Is it possible to drill the holes deeper and put threads farther into 
the material?

> Or 3. Just drill and tap the holes for the next larger bolt if there's enough
> metal.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Jun 20 06:13:22 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:13:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <4DFEBA22.10604@tx.rr.com>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<816C86FC-EF2C-4F2F-AB50-566438FBDA16@kerch.com>
	<4DFEBA22.10604@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110620080904.04c1e910@cox.net>

At 11:10 PM 6/19/2011, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:

 >Is it possible to drill the holes deeper and put threads farther 
into the material?

 >Or 3. Just drill and tap the holes for the next larger bolt if there's enough
 >metal.

Thanks to all that replied.  The consensus seems to be to use the 
helicoil, or go
to the next size up bolt.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there is enough metal there.  This is 
on the outside
lip of the carb, with just a little ear where the bolts are.

At to  going deeper, good idea but won't work as these holes go 
through the metal.  This is an old Zenith carb.

I do like the suggestion about taking it to a small engine repair 
shop and let them
look at it and doing all 5 holes if I do the 3.

I might try that.  The shop may know better than I if there is enough meat left
to go the helicoil route.

While I'm out, I look for either the locktite or Permatex epoxies vis 
just JB Weld.

Thanks again.

John


>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Mon Jun 20 07:37:12 2011
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:37:12 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110620080904.04c1e910@cox.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<816C86FC-EF2C-4F2F-AB50-566438FBDA16@kerch.com>
	<4DFEBA22.10604@tx.rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20110620080904.04c1e910@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4DFF4D08.8010002@talktalk.net>

If the holes go right through, another option would be to see if a nut 
would go on the end (although this might not be acceptable as it would 
be visible)

On 20/06/2011 13:13, John T. Blair wrote:
> At 11:10 PM 6/19/2011, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:
>
> >Is it possible to drill the holes deeper and put threads farther into 
> the material?
>
> >Or 3. Just drill and tap the holes for the next larger bolt if 
> there's enough
> >metal.
>
> Thanks to all that replied.  The consensus seems to be to use the 
> helicoil, or go
> to the next size up bolt.
>
> Unfortunately, I don't know if there is enough metal there.  This is 
> on the outside
> lip of the carb, with just a little ear where the bolts are.
>
> At to  going deeper, good idea but won't work as these holes go 
> through the metal.  This is an old Zenith carb.
>
> I do like the suggestion about taking it to a small engine repair shop 
> and let them
> look at it and doing all 5 holes if I do the 3.
>
> I might try that.  The shop may know better than I if there is enough 
> meat left
> to go the helicoil route.
>
> While I'm out, I look for either the locktite or Permatex epoxies vis 
> just JB Weld.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> John
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 16:13:33 2011
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:13:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] under cabinet lighting
In-Reply-To: <20110609.181853.19737.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20110609.181853.19737.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikxAhXiUhK-eN8c11Fm-RJLUWUQWg@mail.gmail.com>

Matt-

If you're still thinking about LED lighting, I ran across this site,
and they look like the place from which I will get my under-cabinet
lighting.

http://www.ledwaves.com/

Cree does make some good LED lighting, but they're not cheap. There
are a lot of ways to blow the budget!

NFI, just in the midst of my own kitchen renovation...

-Peter

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:
> The wife wants a tile backsplash in the kitchen, so I thought a little
> undercabinet lighting while in the vicinity might be nice.
> I am guessing it would be more of an accent thing than actual
functional/task
> lighting.  I was cruising the HDepot and they had several "puck" type
> including battery (don't want that), zenon and LED.  I am not looking to
put
> something up that will be maintenance intensive.   I was surprised at the
> variety - florescent, rope lighting, etc.
>
> I saw a Hampton Bay LED product - 10 lights wired, looked like a 12V wall
> wart, model 835355 originally $50 marked down to $37 that had potential but
> when I got home to check out the specs, couldn't find anything about it.
 That
> starts to sound like a disposable product, doubt there are replacement LEDs
if
> I can't even find the product on their web site.  That might not be much
> better than a string of small XMAS lights.
>
> Any thoughts or recent experience?
>
> Shop link - maybe I will do something similar in the shop?!?
>
> TIA,
> Matt
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Mon Jun 20 20:32:10 2011
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:32:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
In-Reply-To: <4DFE1D26.9060504@comcast.net>
References: <4DFE1D26.9060504@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MTAwMDA0Ny5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1308623526@quikprotect>

> I have a 2008 Mustang GT (Bullitt model).  To my surprise, the front tires
seem to wear more on the inside than the outside, 
> which is unexpected since I try to spend as much time on the outside of
the tread as possible (if you get my 'drift').

>From my experience with strut suspensions, moderate negative camber with
mild toe-out can cause that sort of wear in 10k miles or so (e.g., -1.5
camber and 1/8" toe-out).  If you eliminate the toe (out or in), the wear is
reduced considerably.  I ended-up running -2.5 camber and adjusting two-out
at each autocross to reduce the inside tire wear.  For a street car I'd
probably just do a minimum of camber and have the two set to zero.  

BTW, I love those Bullitts -- nice and understated.

- Ian

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Jun 20 23:08:25 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (jibjib at att.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:08:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
Message-ID: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>

I have an interesting issue puzzling me.  My 2006 Chevy Malibu is about
ready for brakes, which I will be doing shortly.  The biggest issue is a
pulsing from the left front wheel.  The pulsing is very mild for all
driving, almost indiscernible.  When I am driving down hills, even when the
brakes are dead cold, the vibration has gotten moderately severe; to the
point that I'm thinking it might be more than just the rotor.  I did the tie
rod ends at 78k miles and now we are at 118K.

 

The shimmy has always been worse on down hills, which perplexes me.

 

The car will be getting new rotors and brake pads up front, where the shimmy
is.  If there is still a problem, that I do not see when I change out the
rotors and pads, I'll address it, but I was just wondering if anyone had a
plausible explanation of why the shimmy is so much worse on a downhill.  It
is not heat build up, as I've experimented with not using the brakes until
the downhill and from the first application, the shimmy is far worse.

 

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

 

Jack

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Jun 21 05:09:12 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:09:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>
Message-ID: <A69ACF54-DA83-42E7-955A-A692B09F43AD@groupwbench.org>

On Jun 21, 2011, at 1:08 AM, <jibjib at att.net> wrote:

> I have an interesting issue puzzling me.  My 2006 Chevy Malibu is about
> ready for brakes, which I will be doing shortly.  The biggest issue is a
> pulsing from the left front wheel.  The pulsing is very mild for all
> driving, almost indiscernible.  When I am driving down hills, even when the
> brakes are dead cold, the vibration has gotten moderately severe; to the
> point that I'm thinking it might be more than just the rotor.  I did the
tie
> rod ends at 78k miles and now we are at 118K.


I had this on my Subaru. After a long highway run it would make the car almost
undriveable, the shaking was so violent. It was a warped rotor compounded by a
sticky caliper. The caliper wouldn't retract when the warp came around, so
things just got hotter and more warped, and more grabby.  If those calipers
are original, might want to go ahead and rebuild/replace them with the
rotors.

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun 21 06:40:32 2011
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] brake problems on a goose neck trailer
Message-ID: <607088.23513.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a dual axle 25' goose neck trailer with electric brakes. The two brake
drums on the passenger side get extremely hot after a six mile trip with no
load. The two drums on the other side are perfectly cool. The trailer has less
than 10K miles on it and is 7 years old. I have stripped down both backing
plates and cleaned everything up and adjusted the brakes more than once, both
drums have new bearing. The drums get extremely hot only when the trailer is
connected electrically, if I don't connect it the outside hubs get just a
little 
warm. Do I have a short for those to wheels? 

Thanks for the help.
 
Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jun 21 08:46:44 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
In-Reply-To: <4DFE1D26.9060504@comcast.net>
References: <4DFE1D26.9060504@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211044330.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Bob Spidell wrote:
> I have a 2008 Mustang GT (Bullitt model).  To my surprise, the front 
> tires seem to wear more on the inside than the outside, which is 
> unexpected since I try to spend as much time on the outside of the tread 
> as possible (if you get my 'drift').
>
> Anyone have similar car with same issue?  Is this more common on 
> 'modern' cars?  My other/previous vehicles always had more wear on the 
> outside of the tread.  Is this car biased towards more negative camber 
> in turns?  I do rotate regularly (front-to-back, rear crossover).
>
> The wear seems consistent on both sides, and there is no cupping so I 
> think alignment is probably OK (but I'll get it checked when I re-shod 
> the car).

Its been a while since I've played with Mustangs, but what you're 
describing sounds like you have some negative camber and toe (in or out).

Find out what you're current alignment actually is and you can adjust from 
there, but absent actual data like that, I'd start somewhere around -1 deg 
and zero toe for the street.  I'd keep the toe near zero as the most 
important thing from a tire wear perspective.

Mark

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jun 21 08:56:29 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:56:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

This doesn't address the "downhill" part.  That seems pretty crazy.

That said... When you replace your pads / rotors, tighten the rotor to the 
hub and check the hub itself for both runout and play.  We recently had an 
'06 Civic that either had its hub bent during a wheel bearing replacement 
or via a pothole and it wasn't obvious what was wrong until someone made 
that very simple check.

You don't even have to have real tools to do this, thought it obviously 
wouldn't hurt.  Just tighten the rotor to the hub and rig up an indicator 
out of anything that's sitting on the ground with a part close to the edge 
of the rotor and spin the rotor.  Your eye will do a good job of seeing 
very small runout like this, or you can get it close enough that it'll 
scrape on the high points.

A good shoptalk lister would use this as a reason to go buy a magnetic 
base / flexible arm / dial indicator though.  :-)

Mark

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011, jibjib at att.net wrote:
> I have an interesting issue puzzling me.  My 2006 Chevy Malibu is about
> ready for brakes, which I will be doing shortly.  The biggest issue is a
> pulsing from the left front wheel.  The pulsing is very mild for all
> driving, almost indiscernible.  When I am driving down hills, even when the
> brakes are dead cold, the vibration has gotten moderately severe; to the
> point that I'm thinking it might be more than just the rotor.  I did the tie
> rod ends at 78k miles and now we are at 118K.
>
>
>
> The shimmy has always been worse on down hills, which perplexes me.
>
>
>
> The car will be getting new rotors and brake pads up front, where the shimmy
> is.  If there is still a problem, that I do not see when I change out the
> rotors and pads, I'll address it, but I was just wondering if anyone had a
> plausible explanation of why the shimmy is so much worse on a downhill.  It
> is not heat build up, as I've experimented with not using the brakes until
> the downhill and from the first application, the shimmy is far worse.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
> Jack
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Jun 21 09:31:03 2011
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:31:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <1EB26C127B3D41BBB5038F1A4BF6EA07@EricJRussellPC>

I haven't figured out what the 'downhill' clue is telling us but I'd suggest 
checking everything even remotely related. Defective tire (rotate to rear?), 
bent wheel, loose hub bearing, loose suspension parts (ball joints or 
whatever its got), etc.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

> The shimmy has always been worse on down hills, which perplexes me.

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Jun 21 10:06:41 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:06:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211044330.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <1336858106.165167.1308672401518.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

If you are running a lot of negative camber, toe OUT actually inproves tire wear.  It also contributes the kind of darty handling that autocrossers enjoy.

In the olden days, car makers enhanced stability with a lot of toe-in which they balanced for tire wear with positive camber.  Not so great for cornering.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com


----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com>
> To: "Shop-Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 9:46:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
> Howdy,
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Bob Spidell wrote:
> > I have a 2008 Mustang GT (Bullitt model). To my surprise, the front
> > tires seem to wear more on the inside than the outside, which is
> > unexpected since I try to spend as much time on the outside of the
> > tread
> > as possible (if you get my 'drift').
> >
> > Anyone have similar car with same issue? Is this more common on
> > 'modern' cars? My other/previous vehicles always had more wear on
> > the
> > outside of the tread. Is this car biased towards more negative
> > camber
> > in turns? I do rotate regularly (front-to-back, rear crossover).
> >
> > The wear seems consistent on both sides, and there is no cupping so
> > I
> > think alignment is probably OK (but I'll get it checked when I
> > re-shod
> > the car).
> 
> Its been a while since I've played with Mustangs, but what you're
> describing sounds like you have some negative camber and toe (in or
> out).
> 
> Find out what you're current alignment actually is and you can adjust
> from
> there, but absent actual data like that, I'd start somewhere around -1
> deg
> and zero toe for the street. I'd keep the toe near zero as the most
> important thing from a tire wear perspective.
> 
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Jun 21 10:07:44 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:07:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211044330.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <1208159179.165238.1308672464517.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

If you are running a lot of negative camber, toe OUT actually inproves tire wear.  It also contributes the kind of darty handling that autocrossers enjoy.

In the olden days, car makers enhanced stability with a lot of toe-in which they balanced for tire wear with positive camber.  Not so great for cornering.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com


----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com>
> To: "Shop-Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 9:46:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
> Howdy,
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Bob Spidell wrote:
> > I have a 2008 Mustang GT (Bullitt model). To my surprise, the front
> > tires seem to wear more on the inside than the outside, which is
> > unexpected since I try to spend as much time on the outside of the
> > tread
> > as possible (if you get my 'drift').
> >
> > Anyone have similar car with same issue? Is this more common on
> > 'modern' cars? My other/previous vehicles always had more wear on
> > the
> > outside of the tread. Is this car biased towards more negative
> > camber
> > in turns? I do rotate regularly (front-to-back, rear crossover).
> >
> > The wear seems consistent on both sides, and there is no cupping so
> > I
> > think alignment is probably OK (but I'll get it checked when I
> > re-shod
> > the car).
> 
> Its been a while since I've played with Mustangs, but what you're
> describing sounds like you have some negative camber and toe (in or
> out).
> 
> Find out what you're current alignment actually is and you can adjust
> from
> there, but absent actual data like that, I'd start somewhere around -1
> deg
> and zero toe for the street. I'd keep the toe near zero as the most
> important thing from a tire wear perspective.
> 
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jun 21 11:17:00 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:17:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] brake problems on a goose neck trailer
In-Reply-To: <607088.23513.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <607088.23513.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0LN5009NRHC91P50@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Frank,

I am having a hard time coming up with a likely electrical fault that 
explains all this.  I think a more likely explanation is that when 
applied, the brakes are not releasing, or releasing very 
slowly.  Perhaps the return springs are weak.  You should be able to 
jack up the trailer and spin the wheels by hand to experiment.  My 
guess is that the wheels will spin free with the electric connected, 
but continue to drag after brake application.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net


At 08:40 AM 6/21/2011, Frank Vantacich wrote:
>I have a dual axle 25' goose neck trailer with electric brakes. The two brake
>drums on the passenger side get extremely hot after a six mile trip with no
>load. The two drums on the other side are perfectly cool. The trailer has less
>than 10K miles on it and is 7 years old. I have stripped down both backing
>plates and cleaned everything up and adjusted the brakes more than once, both
>drums have new bearing. The drums get extremely hot only when the trailer is
>connected electrically, if I don't connect it the outside hubs get just a
>little
>warm. Do I have a short for those to wheels?
>
>Thanks for the help.
>
>Frank V.
>rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jun 21 11:35:56 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:35:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110620080904.04c1e910@cox.net>
References: <6717166CF0EF4D64A0837DCE0FD98778@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110619100157.04d30398@cox.net>
	<816C86FC-EF2C-4F2F-AB50-566438FBDA16@kerch.com>
	<4DFEBA22.10604@tx.rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20110620080904.04c1e910@cox.net>
Message-ID: <0LN5001U2I9L5J40@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I think the trick here is to pick the right repair shop.  Some small 
engine repair shops are great at tuning lawn mowers but consider 
carburetors to be something you replace if cleaning doesn't work.  I 
think the thing is to find someone with experience doing this sort of 
stuff.  I would look at machine shops.  There are also businesses 
that cater to the classic car crowd.  I am into old British cars, and 
Joe Curto is the guy to see for SU carburetor repair.  This kind of 
repair shouldn't really be too dependent on the type of carburetor, 
though.  Here's his site: www.joecurto.com.  I would definitely go 
with the helicoil repair vs. epoxy if at all possible.  You will know 
you have a good as new repair.  With epoxy, you'll hold your breath 
with each turn of the screw, wondering when it's going to strip out.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 08:13 AM 6/20/2011, John T. Blair wrote:
>I do like the suggestion about taking it to a small engine repair 
>shop and let them
>look at it and doing all 5 holes if I do the 3.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun 21 11:38:22 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:38:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] brake problems on a goose neck trailer
In-Reply-To: <607088.23513.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <607088.23513.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00d101cc303a$05455cd0$0fd01670$@rr.com>

> The drums get extremely hot only when the
> trailer is
> connected electrically, if I don't connect it the outside hubs get just
> a little
> warm. Do I have a short for those to wheels?

Sounds more like a mis-wiring problem to me.  I'd hook it up and see what is
happening directly at the passenger side brakes.  Almost sounds like they
are serving as a ground path for something else.

Do the brakes drag if you jack it up and plug it in?

-- Randall 

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jun 21 19:10:21 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:10:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2008 Mustang Tire Wear
In-Reply-To: <1336858106.165167.1308672401518.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1336858106.165167.1308672401518.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106212108450.1287@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> If you are running a lot of negative camber, toe OUT actually inproves 
> tire wear.

Huh.  Why would that be?

I'm also one of those autocrossers, but I'll admit to not doing a 
scientific study on camber and toe interaction for tire wear.

I'll say that -2.5 deg and 1/8" out wears the inside edge faster than -2.5 
and 0 toe though, since I've tried that one.  :-)

Mark

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Jun 21 19:49:53 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:49:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
Message-ID: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>

I boxed in some basement windows in a very not-square house, and there are
some gaps between the boxes and the casing molding that rests on the sheetrock
walls, some as large as 1/2". The homeowner would prefer the gaps filled in
and smoothed out rather than me laying a piece of molding over it. Since the
gaps have no bottom, I thought I'd create a bottom with some minimally
expanding foam and then fill the remainder with Bondo. I'm sure caulk would
require many layers to stop shrinking, drywall mud would crack and wood
filler...no idea but it has never worked well for me in smaller
applications...

I'm open to the more experienced options before I revisit this brain cell
massacre of my teenage years.

thanks,

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 21 20:19:00 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:19:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> This doesn't address the "downhill" part. B That seems pretty crazy.
>
> That said... When you replace your pads / rotors, tighten the rotor to the
> hub and check the hub itself for both runout and play. B We recently had an
> '06 Civic that either had its hub bent during a wheel bearing replacement
or
> via a pothole and it wasn't obvious what was wrong until someone made that
> very simple check.
>
> You don't even have to have real tools to do this, thought it obviously
> wouldn't hurt. B Just tighten the rotor to the hub and rig up an indicator
> out of anything that's sitting on the ground with a part close to the edge
> of the rotor and spin the rotor. B Your eye will do a good job of seeing
very
> small runout like this, or you can get it close enough that it'll scrape on
> the high points.
>
> A good shoptalk lister would use this as a reason to go buy a magnetic base
> / flexible arm / dial indicator though. B :-)
>

I'm pretty sure the specification for rotor runout for this car is
with the rotor mounted to the hub.  In any event, you're quite right
that this is something to look for.  It's not usual for rotating the
rotor relative to the hub to change the runout, either.

I'd also be  very suspious of your wheel bearings, and also check all
of the steering and suspension components.

I don't get the downhill part at all.  Braking puts more of the
vehicle's weight to the front wheels than any reasonable hill does.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 21 20:32:03 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:32:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
References: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=48LwxfQOggL7qPLSO2_13duAzrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 8:49 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> I boxed in some basement windows in a very not-square house, and there are
> some gaps between the boxes and the casing molding that rests on the sheetrock
> walls, some as large as 1/2". The homeowner would prefer the gaps filled in
> and smoothed out rather than me laying a piece of molding over it. Since the
> gaps haveo bottom, I thought I'd create a bottom with some minimally
> expanding foam and then fill the remainder with Bondo. I'm sure caulk would
> require many layers to stop shrinking, drywall mud would crack and wood
> filler...no idea but it has never worked well for me in smaller
> applications...
>

I'm not quite sure what exactly you've got going on, but it sounds
like the right thing to do is patch the drywall.  I've also used
various extruded polystyrene bits, and polyethylene closed cell foam
caulk backer pieces (typically cylinders of foam that you put in to
take up most of the space, sold for the purpose.)  But fixing the
drywall to match the window seems like it's the best solution (might
cost too much, of course.).  It's a whole lot easier to cut a few
inches more out and so you've three square sides, and just the
window's edge is uneven.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Tue Jun 21 21:10:44 2011
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 23:10:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
References: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4E015D34.3030708@comcast.net>

On 6/21/2011 9:49 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> I boxed in some basement windows in a very not-square house, and there are
> some gaps between the boxes and the casing molding that rests on the sheetrock
> walls, some as large as 1/2". The homeowner would prefer the gaps filled in
> and smoothed out rather than me laying a piece of molding over it. Since the
> gaps have no bottom, I thought I'd create a bottom with some minimally
> expanding foam and then fill the remainder with Bondo. I'm sure caulk would
> require many layers to stop shrinking, drywall mud would crack and wood
> filler...no idea but it has never worked well for me in smaller
> applications...
Bondo and the drywall are going to expand and contract differently with 
temperature changes, which next to a window will be significant.  You 
should use gypsum compound, not bondo.  Tape over it with fiber glass 
tape and mud/sand to blend into the existing wall

Personally, I'd cut back the drywall to the next adjoining stud and re 
sheet rock around it.  A patch job on a seam is going to look much 
better than plastering a large gap and is probably less work and cost.

Peter T.
> I'm open to the more experienced options before I revisit this brain cell
> massacre of my teenage years.
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Tue Jun 21 21:44:23 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 22:44:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
References: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4E016517.8000303@tx.rr.com>

I was going to suggest filling the gaps with strips of wood, maybe 
tapered strips of wood, then caulk/tape and bed what remains.  I've cut 
long tapered strips of wood on my table saw using the rip fence.  I 
nailed one strip of wood on top of another strip, with the top strip 
angled slightly and the edge of the top strip running against the rip fence.


> I boxed in some basement windows in a very not-square house, and there are
> some gaps between the boxes and the casing molding that rests on the sheetrock
> walls, some as large as 1/2". The homeowner would prefer the gaps filled in
> and smoothed out rather than me laying a piece of molding over it. Since the
> gaps have no bottom, I thought I'd create a bottom with some minimally
> expanding foam and then fill the remainder with Bondo. I'm sure caulk would
> require many layers to stop shrinking, drywall mud would crack and wood
> filler...no idea but it has never worked well for me in smaller
> applications...
>
> I'm open to the more experienced options before I revisit this brain cell
> massacre of my teenage years.

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jun 21 22:41:56 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:41:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>

Good, it's not just me, but you guys are a bit confused about the downhill
part too.

I have a dial indicator and a magnetic base, so there are no good tools to
acquire on this issue, but I will be checking run out, etc., not to avoid
buying new rotors, but to try and figure out what is going on.  I also will
look for glazed or different looking sections of the rotor.

Good idea on checking the bearings too.

Thanks!

Jack

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 21 22:59:21 2011
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:59:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
References: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4E0176A9.7070001@earthlink.net>

Jim - If you are after an easy way to add a little bit to extend the 
drywall, get some mesh tape and setting type drywall compound.  It sets 
chemically in the time specified on the package.  I'd probably recommend 
mixing up the 45 minute compound.  It comes as powder at the home 
centers along side the drywall mud.  It is stronger, harder, and doesn't 
shrink compared to regular premixed joint compound.   The mesh tape will 
span the seam and help prevent cracking.

If the mix you are using starts to set, toss it or push it in the deep 
areas as a backing.  If you add water after it starts to set, it won't 
work well.

Brian

On 6/21/2011 6:49 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> I boxed in some basement windows in a very not-square house, and there are
> some gaps between the boxes and the casing molding that rests on the sheetrock
> walls, some as large as 1/2". The homeowner would prefer the gaps filled in
> and smoothed out rather than me laying a piece of molding over it. Since the
> gaps have no bottom, I thought I'd create a bottom with some minimally
> expanding foam and then fill the remainder with Bondo. I'm sure caulk would
> require many layers to stop shrinking, drywall mud would crack and wood
> filler...no idea but it has never worked well for me in smaller
> applications...
>
> I'm open to the more experienced options before I revisit this brain cell
> massacre of my teenage years.
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 00:30:07 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 23:30:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>
Message-ID: <037101cc30a5$d4b04280$0301a8c0@randall>

> I have a dial indicator and a magnetic base, so there are no 
> good tools to
> acquire on this issue,

FWIW, my book recommends using a micrometer to measure the thickness
variation.  I don't recall the spec offhand, but it's much tighter than the
runout allowance.  Not sure why that is, but it might have something to do
with the ABS.

-- Randall  

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Wed Jun 22 02:14:54 2011
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:14:54 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <037101cc30a5$d4b04280$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>
	<037101cc30a5$d4b04280$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <4E01A47E.2060309@talktalk.net>

Run out is slightly less critical, as the pads should float back and 
forth to accommodate it (unless the callipers are really sticky). If one 
area of the disk is thicker, then that will cause a definite pulse, as 
the extra material has nowhere to go. Could be caused by a hard spot in 
the disk that has been left high as the rest of the disk has worn away.
Another possibility is if the edges of the disk are horribly corroded to 
the extent that bits are flaking off, this can give an uneven running 
surface for the pad - but that would be quite apparent without dti's and 
mic's.
It is possible that the run out is caused by a warped disk - this can be 
caused by heavy braking to a stop, followed by holding the brakes on 
whilst stationary - the pads keep one bit of the disk hot while the rest 
can cool more quickly. Or it's just one of those things as the disks wear!
Neil


On 22/06/2011 07:30, Randall wrote:
>> I have a dial indicator and a magnetic base, so there are no
>> good tools to
>> acquire on this issue,
> FWIW, my book recommends using a micrometer to measure the thickness
> variation.  I don't recall the spec offhand, but it's much tighter than the
> runout allowance.  Not sure why that is, but it might have something to do
> with the ABS.
>
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Wed Jun 22 02:24:27 2011
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 01:24:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped carb hole.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <432773563D2948F58340F3BD84BB76B1@delld520>

<<<Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] stripped screw hole in carb
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110620080904.04c1e910 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 11:10 PM 6/19/2011, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:

 >Is it possible to drill the holes deeper and put threads farther 
into the material?

 >Or 3. Just drill and tap the holes for the next larger bolt if there's
enough
 >metal.

Thanks to all that replied.  The consensus seems to be to use the 
helicoil, or go
to the next size up bolt.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there is enough metal there.  This is 
on the outside
lip of the carb, with just a little ear where the bolts are.

At to  going deeper, good idea but won't work as these holes go 
through the metal.  This is an old Zenith carb.

I do like the suggestion about taking it to a small engine repair 
shop and let them
look at it and doing all 5 holes if I do the 3.

I might try that.  The shop may know better than I if there is enough meat
left
to go the helicoil route.

While I'm out, I look for either the locktite or Permatex epoxies vis 
just JB Weld.

Thanks again.

John
>>>
If the holes are through is it possible to get longer bolts and put some
nuts on the outside of the carb, perhaps use threaded standoffs and grind
them to a profile to match the outside of the carb?

Mark.

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Wed Jun 22 02:27:35 2011
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 01:27:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>

Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, not a lot of air.  I was
thinking of getting a small pancake type and sticking it in a crate with a
bunch of sound insulating material, but would rather find an inherently
quiet unit.

Thanks in advance, o' list of near infinite knowledge!!

Mark Miller

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jun 22 03:41:13 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 05:41:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>
Message-ID: <4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>

On 6/22/2011 12:41 AM, Jack Brooks wrote:
> I have a dial indicator and a magnetic base, so there are no good tools to
> acquire on this issue, but I will be checking run out, etc., not to avoid
> buying new rotors, but to try and figure out what is going on.  I also will

I've done this with the indicator stuck on the strut tube.  Had a couple 
thou' runout at the edge of the rotor, which turned out to be largely in 
the wheel hub.  Was able to cut shim stock to sandwich between hub & 
rotor to true it (a little smear of grease on the shim was enough "tack" 
to hold it for assembly.)

Also heard some goofy crap over the years, like a machine shop guy that 
insisted when turning a rotor you HAD to shim it to intentionally 
produce runout, so the rotor would push the pads back and they wouldn't 
drag.  Uuuuhhhh... sorry dude, maybe in the infant days of disc brakes 
50+ years ago.  But not in any manual I have for any of my cars.

-Wayne

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jun 22 03:45:54 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 05:45:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
Message-ID: <4E01B9D2.9040502@xxiii.com>

On 6/22/2011 4:27 AM, Mark Miller wrote:
> Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
> environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, not a lot of air.  I was
> thinking of getting a small pancake type and sticking it in a crate with a
> bunch of sound insulating material, but would rather find an inherently

If it's really low volume, maybe you could skip the compressor and use 
bottled gas (welding style) regulated down?  All the little oil-less 
compressors I've heard are painfully buzzy.  Would rather tolerate a big 
one going chug-chug even if it's louder!

-w

From fishplate at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 05:34:21 2011
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 07:34:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=bRy8TDgsaErfBur-8C8F7xdrBEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 4:27 AM, Mark Miller
<markmiller at threeboysfarm.com> wrote:
> Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
> environment.

What kind of pressure and volume/flow are you requiring?  I've seen
some medical-grade airbrush-type compressors that are pretty quiet,
but they don't push a lot of air.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 05:35:11 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 07:35:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <4E01B9D2.9040502@xxiii.com>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
	<4E01B9D2.9040502@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4E01D36F.4050307@gmail.com>

I think Wayne's idea of bottled gas would be *really* quiet if it's 
low-enough volume. :-)

I was going to suggest a dentist's air compressor.  I call it that 
because my brother-in-law has an air compressor taken from a dentist's 
office like nothing I've ever seen.  The entire compressor is smaller 
than the size of the air tank on the tiny single-horizontal tank 
portable Campbell-Hausfield compressors you see at H-D.  It's a six (not 
a typo) cylinder compressor, with three cylinders each oriented radially 
at each end of the thing, perpendicular to its axis.  Looks like two 
tiny three-cylinder radial airplane engines stuck on either end of a 
bench grinder.

It's oil filled, and the thing is damn near silent.  It's so 
kewl-looking that I asked him where he got it and he said it came out of 
a dentist's office (he's the master of finding stuff like that).  I'm 
not sure how much air it puts out--I'm inclined to think not much from 
its size, but then again, there are six cylinders and I'll bet they're 
spinning pretty fast.  It looks like it's built for action, and it also 
looks like it's at least fifty years old, so I imagine it's durable.

I think I'll try to buy it from him, just to have it in the shop.  It's 
that cool.  Like an old Honda 250-6 GP engine.

Anyway, no idea where you'd get one.

Huh.  I just Googled it, and I don't see any that look like his, but 
Googling "Dentist air compressor" got me several places that advertise 
quiet air compressors if nothing else.

Good luck.

Scott

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Jun 22 07:03:37 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:03:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <63208239-703F-4502-BDAB-C1A44AAAB4AF@ipns.com>
References: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>
	<63208239-703F-4502-BDAB-C1A44AAAB4AF@ipns.com>
Message-ID: <0A56BCB0-A9AC-4B56-9BE4-5BA8EB6A59F0@groupwbench.org>

THat's great to know, I will likely go with that. Thanks!

As for the rest of the responses, clearly I did a horrible job of explaining
the issue :-)

Here's someone else's basement and what I'm trying to accomplish on a 100 year
old house:
http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n115/rabbit_016/?action=view&current=IMG_0
626.jpg

In more detail, the basement wall is cinder block, and the windows are
recessed against the outside. I framed the basement walls with sleepers,
including framing around the window recesses. Then I built plywood boxes that
slid into that window framing. Due to the wavy nature of the wall, the boxes
would rarely sit flush against both the window and the wall framing. When I
had to choose, I chose having them flush against the window.

Then I sheetrocked the framing, and added 1x3 casing around the window
openings. It's this casing that doesn't always meet the butt end of the
plywood box. So the gap is between two wood surfaces, perpendicular to each
other.

If I can get away with using drywall compound, I'd love it as I still have
4.95 gallons left. But I figured I needed something less prone to cracking.
Plus we have rain moving in, and in a basement, a 1/2" gob of that, even the
setting-type, will take a week to dry.

thanks,
jim

On Jun 21, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Darrell Walker wrote:

>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Minwax makes a two-part wood filler that appears to be pretty much the same
thing as Bondo:
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/Minwax-High-Performance-Filler-12-Ounce-21600/dp/B000BQ
L0WA
>
> But it sort of wood colored.  It sets up pretty fast (especially if you
overdo the hardener), sticks really well, and can be worked with wood tools
after setting up.
>
> -Darrell
>
> On Jun 21, 2011, at 6:49 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>
>> I boxed in some basement windows in a very not-square house, and there are
>> some gaps between the boxes and the casing molding that rests on the
sheetrock
>> walls, some as large as 1/2". The homeowner would prefer the gaps filled
in
>> and smoothed out rather than me laying a piece of molding over it. Since
the
>> gaps have no bottom, I thought I'd create a bottom with some minimally
>> expanding foam and then fill the remainder with Bondo. I'm sure caulk
would
>> require many layers to stop shrinking, drywall mud would crack and wood
>> filler...no idea but it has never worked well for me in smaller
>> applications...
>>
>> I'm open to the more experienced options before I revisit this brain cell
>> massacre of my teenage years.
>>
>> thanks,
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw at ipns.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 07:29:22 2011
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:29:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
Message-ID: <003c01cc30e0$66fc2570$34f47050$@com>

We went through similar here at work.  We bought an oil-less pancake
compressor to provide air to laboratory instruments when the house air was
shut down over the weekend (GC FIDs, in case we're trying to do the same
thing).  A Tee with a couple of one-way valves was plumbed into the supply
line for the lab.  When the house air was shut off the pancake would pick up
the slack.  It was pretty slick and seemed like an elegant solution.

Unfortunately, even when it was put out of the way in a crate lined with
sound-deadening foam it was ridiculously noisy and caused a bit of a revolt.
The final solution was to stop shutting down the house air over weekends.

Many people have recommended cylinders.  That's fine if your consumption is
very low, but if you require a constant supply of air, then you have to get
a manifold to auto-switch between cylinders and people have to be assigned
to tend to them.  You also have to deal with ordering/storing/handling
cylinders all the time, which can be a pain in that sort of environment.  I
lobby for generating our consumable gasses on-site when possible.
Unfortunately, we still have to order quite a few Helium cylinders and we
run into crunches when the right people don't notice the supply getting low.

-Paul P. 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Miller
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:28 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor

Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, not a lot of air.  I was
thinking of getting a small pancake type and sticking it in a crate with a
bunch of sound insulating material, but would rather find an inherently
quiet unit.

Thanks in advance, o' list of near infinite knowledge!!

Mark Miller

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun 22 09:17:12 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 11:17:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
Message-ID: <OF272DE760.C39A8FF7-ON852578B7.00552EE0-852578B7.0055917B@mail.megageek.com>

Mark,

How much air is "not much?"  There are little compressors that run air 
brush guns that are quieter than a fan.  Also, fish tanks have compressors 
that are very quiet.

If you need enough air for tool use, there are units out there that are 
quiet, but you may have to actually hear them run before you can decide if 
they are too loud.

Note, putting a compressor in a crate with lots of foam is a bad idea. 
They need air supply for cooling and air to compress.  But, you can most 
likely locate the compressor someplace else and plumb the air to where you 
need it.  That way if it is noisy, its in a server room or an access shaft 
that it doesn't bother anyone.

Of course, oil compressors are quieter than oil-less compressors, but the 
smaller ones tend to be oil-less.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 





Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, not a lot of air.  I was
thinking of getting a small pancake type and sticking it in a crate with a
bunch of sound insulating material, but would rather find an inherently
quiet unit.

Thanks in advance, o' list of near infinite knowledge!!

Mark Miller
_______________________________________________

From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com  Wed Jun 22 10:26:38 2011
From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:26:38 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
Message-ID: <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02EE90A6@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com>

Take a look at the Iwata air compressors made for air brushes.  They are very
quiet and durable and come in a wide variety of sizes.

Gil Fuqua
Nashville

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Miller
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:28 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor

Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, not a lot of air.  I was
thinking of getting a small pancake type and sticking it in a crate with a
bunch of sound insulating material, but would rather find an inherently
quiet unit.

Thanks in advance, o' list of near infinite knowledge!!

Mark Miller
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 10:42:17 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 12:42:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <0A56BCB0-A9AC-4B56-9BE4-5BA8EB6A59F0@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <20110622164218.0N577.172134.root@cdptpa-web09-z01>

I stand by my first answer- tapered strips of wood to go between the ends of the plywood box and the back face of the molding.  You could rip them real fast with a table saw.

 
> THat's great to know, I will likely go with that. Thanks!
> 
> As for the rest of the responses, clearly I did a horrible job of explaining
> the issue :-)
> 
> Here's someone else's basement and what I'm trying to accomplish on a 100 year
> old house:
> http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n115/rabbit_016/?action=view&current=IMG_0
> 626.jpg
> 
> In more detail, the basement wall is cinder block, and the windows are
> recessed against the outside. I framed the basement walls with sleepers,
> including framing around the window recesses. Then I built plywood boxes that
> slid into that window framing. Due to the wavy nature of the wall, the boxes
> would rarely sit flush against both the window and the wall framing. When I
> had to choose, I chose having them flush against the window.
> 
> Then I sheetrocked the framing, and added 1x3 casing around the window
> openings. It's this casing that doesn't always meet the butt end of the
> plywood box. So the gap is between two wood surfaces, perpendicular to each
> other.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 10:46:25 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:46:25 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <003c01cc30e0$66fc2570$34f47050$@com>
Message-ID: <20110622164625.OLNAL.172169.root@cdptpa-web09-z01>

If you didn't need much volume of air, you could still put in a large tank as a reservoir.  Connect it to your main system with some valves and let the main system pressurize it, then weekends disconnect the main system from the lab and let the pressure tank supply air for the weekend.  If the reservoir wouldn't supply air for enough length of time, you could also have a small compressor to bring it back up to pressure, and just turn it on during break times or lunch time.


> We went through similar here at work.  We bought an oil-less pancake
> compressor to provide air to laboratory instruments when the house air was
> shut down over the weekend (GC FIDs, in case we're trying to do the same
> thing).  A Tee with a couple of one-way valves was plumbed into the supply
> line for the lab.  When the house air was shut off the pancake would pick up
> the slack.  It was pretty slick and seemed like an elegant solution.
> 
> Unfortunately, even when it was put out of the way in a crate lined with
> sound-deadening foam it was ridiculously noisy and caused a bit of a revolt.
> The final solution was to stop shutting down the house air over weekends.

From lotuseuropa at me.com  Wed Jun 22 11:22:03 2011
From: lotuseuropa at me.com (Michael Lye)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:22:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <003c01cc30e0$66fc2570$34f47050$@com>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
	<003c01cc30e0$66fc2570$34f47050$@com>
Message-ID: <AD416AD2-975A-41B2-8B79-099274388C99@me.com>

I accidentally sent Mark a reply off-list and thought I'd repost to the list plus add a little more:

If you have the budget, go for a Jun-air compressor. They make great compressors that are very well made and very quiet! Some are no louder than a refrigerator. Small ones are only 35 dBA. That's sort of the level of noise in a library! They are often used in dental offices and labs situations. These are also sometimes used for picture framing businesses. Other brands marketed to dental offices and labs may be similar. 

http://www.jun-air.com/

Here is one on e-bay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Jun-Air-air-compressor-model-6-25-/350288672448?pt=BI_Air_Compressors&hash=item518ed4f6c0#ht_1497wt_907

Jun-air are well made and have good support so I would think a used one is a viable way to go.

If you want a very quiet compressor and the requirements work. I highly recommend these. Not cheap but worth it if you can't have the noise of a regular compressor.

Michael
no connection etc. etc. but I've used one in the past and was really impressed.

On Jun 22, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:

> We went through similar here at work.  We bought an oil-less pancake
> compressor to provide air to laboratory instruments when the house air was
> shut down over the weekend (GC FIDs, in case we're trying to do the same
> thing).  A Tee with a couple of one-way valves was plumbed into the supply
> line for the lab.  When the house air was shut off the pancake would pick up
> the slack.  It was pretty slick and seemed like an elegant solution.
> 
> Unfortunately, even when it was put out of the way in a crate lined with
> sound-deadening foam it was ridiculously noisy and caused a bit of a revolt.
> The final solution was to stop shutting down the house air over weekends.
> 
> Many people have recommended cylinders.  That's fine if your consumption is
> very low, but if you require a constant supply of air, then you have to get
> a manifold to auto-switch between cylinders and people have to be assigned
> to tend to them.  You also have to deal with ordering/storing/handling
> cylinders all the time, which can be a pain in that sort of environment.  I
> lobby for generating our consumable gasses on-site when possible.
> Unfortunately, we still have to order quite a few Helium cylinders and we
> run into crunches when the right people don't notice the supply getting low.
> 
> -Paul P. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:28 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
> 
> Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
> environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, not a lot of air.  I was
> thinking of getting a small pancake type and sticking it in a crate with a
> bunch of sound insulating material, but would rather find an inherently
> quiet unit.
> 
> Thanks in advance, o' list of near infinite knowledge!!
> 
> Mark Miller

From shop at shariconglobal.com  Wed Jun 22 12:29:07 2011
From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 14:29:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
Message-ID: <B0D62F921FF14A229DC42DCB78474AD7@Tablet>

I've been _very_ happy with the Porter Cable C1010 I picked up a month or
two ago...  It lives up to the claimed 71db noise level and if you don't
need a lot of air (.75cfm @ 90psi) it's a good deal (I think it was ~$150).

http://www.portercable.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=25231


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:28 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
> 
> Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an 
> office/lab type environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, 
> not a lot of air.  I was thinking of getting a small pancake 
> type and sticking it in a crate with a bunch of sound 
> insulating material, but would rather find an inherently quiet unit.
> 
> Thanks in advance, o' list of near infinite knowledge!!
> 
> Mark Miller
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shop at sharicong
lobal.com

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jun 22 20:54:14 2011
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:54:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <0A56BCB0-A9AC-4B56-9BE4-5BA8EB6A59F0@groupwbench.org>
References: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>,
	<63208239-703F-4502-BDAB-C1A44AAAB4AF@ipns.com>,
	<0A56BCB0-A9AC-4B56-9BE4-5BA8EB6A59F0@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <COL115-W541FDBDB830904B78E7B7CC530@phx.gbl>

> If I can get away with using drywall compound, I'd love it as I still have
> 4.95 gallons left. But I figured I needed something less prone to cracking.
> Plus we have rain moving in, and in a basement, a 1/2" gob of that, even
the
> setting-type, will take a week to dry.

If moisture isn't an issue in the area, I am a big fan of Quick Fill
(http://www.wel-cote.com/psshtm/quick%20fill.htm).  You can trowel on thick
layers  (close to an inch is not a problem) and it still dries quickly and
without cracking.  Once dry, it is very strong and seems to have very good
adhesive properties.  I have used it to repair plaster, drywall, wood and
other surfaces and never had it fail on me.  I tend to move every 5 years or
so, but used it at a friend's house around 10 years ago and that patch is
still solid.  While is can be smoothed when almost dry with a sponge, it will
still be too rough for paint.  It doesn't sand well so I build it up to very
close to the finish surface, then use a light skim coat of joint compound or
similar.  I don't know if this actually helps, but I generally score the final
coat of Quick Fill with the edge of a putty knife to give the joint compound
something to bite into.

From racertod at racertodd.com  Wed Jun 22 21:11:00 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 20:11:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <4E01D36F.4050307@gmail.com>
References: <4E01B9D2.9040502@xxiii.com>
	<mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
	<4E01B9D2.9040502@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110622200815.00bd02a0@mail.avvanta.com>

         Google "quiet air compressor" and you'll get several 
manufacturers.  Here's one: www.silentaire.com .   They have units down to 
40decibels.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       289,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Jun 22 22:03:32 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:03:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
References: <mailman.18.1308592804.7378.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<3DD1BABFD3A24AE4B021C06D6E188F95@delld520>
Message-ID: <C59BEF666C5E45A19C3F93D1A33F58BB@EntCent>

I have an airbrush and it's compressor is pretty quiet.  You may want to
check them out.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Miller
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 1:28 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor

Hi.  I need a compressor for work that will be used in an office/lab type
environment.  Quiet is what I'm looking for, not a lot of air.  I was
thinking of getting a small pancake type and sticking it in a crate with a
bunch of sound insulating material, but would rather find an inherently
quiet unit.

Thanks in advance, o' list of near infinite knowledge!!

Mark Miller
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Jun 22 22:13:50 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:13:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com><CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>
	<4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>

The edges of the rotors are not badly corroded.

When I do run out on a rotor, I do both sides of the rotor so I kind of have
thickness covered, cause I'm going to see some sever run out.  I will check
the thickness of any odd looking sections of rotor though.

I don't turn rotors, I replace them when there is an issue.  No issues, I
just roughen up the surface with coarse sandpaper, clean/lube the pins and
change the pads.  The thought of going to a lessened rotor mass, when
usually a warped rotor is due to heat, seems foolish to me, especially when
it's $15 to cut and $30-45 to replace a rotor.  

The rotors in my 1988 Saab 9000 went over 250k miles when the car was
finally totaled out in a nasty accident.  They had grooves, so I took time
to bed the pads into the shape of the rotor over the first 500 miles, but
they were always smooth as silk and solid.

Thanks Gents!!! Maybe this weekend. . . . . 
  
Jack

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jun 22 23:02:29 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:02:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com><CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent>
	<4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com> <2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
Message-ID: <4E02C8E5.2080000@xxiii.com>

On 6/23/2011 12:13 AM, Jack Brooks wrote:
> I don't turn rotors, I replace them when there is an issue.  No issues, I
> just roughen up the surface with coarse sandpaper, clean/lube the pins and

Yeah, rotors are too cheap these days to mess with turning.

I will highly recommend the Brembo OEM replacement rotors you can get 
from Tire Rack and elsewhere.  Really fantastic product:

* competitively priced.
* Super flat, minimal run out, apparently blanchard ground.  NOT the 
lathe turned concentric grooved finish cheap rotors have.
* factory balanced -- have clip on weights or drill outs to balance.
* NOT coated with oil or Cosmoline goop that requires a whole can of 
solvent + labor per rotor to remove
* don't seem to rust as badly on the non-swept surface as others.

-w

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun 23 05:19:01 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 04:19:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com><CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent><4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>
	<2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
Message-ID: <01b601cc3197$5aac3640$0301a8c0@randall>

> When I do run out on a rotor, I do both sides of the rotor so 
> I kind of have
> thickness covered, cause I'm going to see some sever run out. 

I dug the book out.  Permissible runout is .003", but thickness variation is
only .0005".  That means you could see only .0003" runout on each side, and
still be out of specification on thickness variation.

Ditto on turning rotors.  In addition, they have so little allowance these
days that it's practically impossible to find a used rotor that is still
thick enough to be turned.

-- Randall  

From gwishon at nd.edu  Thu Jun 23 10:27:13 2011
From: gwishon at nd.edu (Gordon Wishon)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 12:27:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Listserv 25th Anniversary
Message-ID: <9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56366675183F@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>

For all you listserv old-timers.....

http://www.lsoft.com/news/listserv25years-2011.asp



Gordon

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jun 23 15:51:16 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:51:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filling large gaps in wood?
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W541FDBDB830904B78E7B7CC530@phx.gbl>
References: <191F4B0A-3494-4D67-A721-1F5D2C39EC29@groupwbench.org>,
	<63208239-703F-4502-BDAB-C1A44AAAB4AF@ipns.com>,
	<0A56BCB0-A9AC-4B56-9BE4-5BA8EB6A59F0@groupwbench.org>
	<COL115-W541FDBDB830904B78E7B7CC530@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <41E9F6E2-3017-4A34-A8FD-6AF01467EFD6@groupwbench.org>

On Jun 22, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Jim Stone wrote:

>
> If moisture isn't an issue in the area, I am a big fan of Quick Fill
(http://www.wel-cote.com/psshtm/quick%20fill.htm).

That would have been good to use but I'd already bought the Minwax product.
It's essentially Bondo but at 4x the cost :-)  The hardener was white so you
couldn't really tell when it was all mixed in, whereas the Bondo's was red
last time I used it. Still, it filled the gaps fine. And it's probably a
better choice if you only need a small amount as it comes in a pint or so
size.

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Jun 23 18:11:19 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:11:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <4E02C8E5.2080000@xxiii.com>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com><CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent><4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>
	<2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
	<4E02C8E5.2080000@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <7FC4796D0C8A4F1BAC081F5E4998AA75@EntCent>

Good info on the Brembo's.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 10:02 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes

On 6/23/2011 12:13 AM, Jack Brooks wrote:
> I don't turn rotors, I replace them when there is an issue.  No issues, I
> just roughen up the surface with coarse sandpaper, clean/lube the pins and

Yeah, rotors are too cheap these days to mess with turning.

I will highly recommend the Brembo OEM replacement rotors you can get 
from Tire Rack and elsewhere.  Really fantastic product:

* competitively priced.
* Super flat, minimal run out, apparently blanchard ground.  NOT the 
lathe turned concentric grooved finish cheap rotors have.
* factory balanced -- have clip on weights or drill outs to balance.
* NOT coated with oil or Cosmoline goop that requires a whole can of 
solvent + labor per rotor to remove
* don't seem to rust as badly on the non-swept surface as others.

-w
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Jun 23 19:22:47 2011
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:22:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <7FC4796D0C8A4F1BAC081F5E4998AA75@EntCent>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com><CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent><4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>
	<2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
	<4E02C8E5.2080000@xxiii.com>
	<7FC4796D0C8A4F1BAC081F5E4998AA75@EntCent>
Message-ID: <001901cc320d$3aff3830$b0fda890$@ameritech.net>

Last summer I needed a set of rotors and Brembos were backordered for
several months.  I ended up taking the Tire Rack salesman's recommendation
and bought a pair of Centric rotors, figuring that for the price I could use
them while I waited and throw them away when the Brembos came into stock.

They arrived the next day, they're beautiful, they come painted on the
non-friction surfaces (the paint is still shiny a year later), and had a
perfect non-directional pattern on the friction surfaces.  They were in
lefts and rights for better cooling too.  They're still on the car and doing
just fine, despite hard driving, splashing hot brakes into puddles, etc.
I'd buy them again - I don't see how they could be better.

Karl


-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Brooks
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes

Good info on the Brembo's.

Jack

From: Wayne
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes

Yeah, rotors are too cheap these days to mess with turning.

I will highly recommend the Brembo OEM replacement rotors you can get from
Tire Rack and elsewhere.  Really fantastic product:

* competitively priced.
* Super flat, minimal run out, apparently blanchard ground.  NOT the lathe
turned concentric grooved finish cheap rotors have.
* factory balanced -- have clip on weights or drill outs to balance.
* NOT coated with oil or Cosmoline goop that requires a whole can of solvent
+ labor per rotor to remove
* don't seem to rust as badly on the non-swept surface as others.

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Jun 23 20:09:25 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 19:09:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <001901cc320d$3aff3830$b0fda890$@ameritech.net>
References: <A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent><Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net><BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com><CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent><4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>
	<2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
	<4E02C8E5.2080000@xxiii.com>
	<7FC4796D0C8A4F1BAC081F5E4998AA75@EntCent>
	<001901cc320d$3aff3830$b0fda890$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <89552664C0444F1B95208FE1E89E0401@EntCent>

Karl,

Thanks for even better than Brembo info, as I'll bet they are less
expensive.

I called tire rack for Akebono pads.  They didn't have them in stock and
suggested a similar pad at 25% less than the Akebono.  They are great pads
and I'll buy them again too.  Hopefully, I'll find the Centrics to be the
same or I'll find something local.

Thanks,

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Vacek [mailto:kvacek at ameritech.net] 
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 6:23 PM
To: 'Jack Brooks'; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes

Last summer I needed a set of rotors and Brembos were backordered for
several months.  I ended up taking the Tire Rack salesman's recommendation
and bought a pair of Centric rotors, figuring that for the price I could use
them while I waited and throw them away when the Brembos came into stock.

They arrived the next day, they're beautiful, they come painted on the
non-friction surfaces (the paint is still shiny a year later), and had a
perfect non-directional pattern on the friction surfaces.  They were in
lefts and rights for better cooling too.  They're still on the car and doing
just fine, despite hard driving, splashing hot brakes into puddles, etc.
I'd buy them again - I don't see how they could be better.

Karl


-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Brooks
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes

Good info on the Brembo's.

Jack

From: Wayne
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes

Yeah, rotors are too cheap these days to mess with turning.

I will highly recommend the Brembo OEM replacement rotors you can get from
Tire Rack and elsewhere.  Really fantastic product:

* competitively priced.
* Super flat, minimal run out, apparently blanchard ground.  NOT the lathe
turned concentric grooved finish cheap rotors have.
* factory balanced -- have clip on weights or drill outs to balance.
* NOT coated with oil or Cosmoline goop that requires a whole can of solvent
+ labor per rotor to remove
* don't seem to rust as badly on the non-swept surface as others.

From racertod at racertodd.com  Thu Jun 23 21:01:26 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:01:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes
In-Reply-To: <001901cc320d$3aff3830$b0fda890$@ameritech.net>
References: <7FC4796D0C8A4F1BAC081F5E4998AA75@EntCent>
	<A6D581F79D074FB5A782E6FBD9A08DFB@EntCent>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1106211052090.20352@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BANLkTinMzLNniAQbgq3U7FOS3ypm55OUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA97A6A330154554A4515EFF67EDC211@EntCent> <4E01B8B9.10704@xxiii.com>
	<2DBDCCA5AEF44465B363EBDAB5E637F2@EntCent>
	<4E02C8E5.2080000@xxiii.com>
	<7FC4796D0C8A4F1BAC081F5E4998AA75@EntCent>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110623195415.02472a58@mail.avvanta.com>

         On the last two sets of brakes I've done I used Zimmerman coated 
rotors.  They come with a light gray coating on the whole rotor.  The pads 
clean off the friction surface and the coating prevents the rest of the 
rotor from rusting.  The coating has lasted the life of the rotor.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       289,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Jun 24 11:57:04 2011
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:57:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generic Head Bolts/Studs
Message-ID: <COL115-W10078E20C54EE4B44B2DB6CC520@phx.gbl>

I have to replace the head gasket on my Alpine and don't want to reuse the 45
year old head bolts that are there now.  (Re-using 45 year old bolts when I
rebuilt the engine is probably the reason I need to replace the gasket now.)
New Alpine bolts are currently available, but studs are not and I would like
to keep the stock configuration (8 bolts + 2 studs) if I can; the studs are
very handy for lifting the engine.  ARP used to make them, but they have not
been available for years.  I doubt my engine justifies the added strength of
ARP bolts anyway; it is a lot stronger than stock, but hardly a race engine.

I and other Alpine owners have looked for generic bolts/studs but without
success, so I thought I'd turn to this group to see if anyone knows of a
source or a different car that used bolts of very similar sizes.  The stock
bolts and studs are 3/8" with 24 pitch thread all around.  I measured a spare
set of bolts and -- rounding down assuming they have stretched a bit over the
years -- I think the bolts should be 4 3/8" with 5/8" of thread, while the
 studs should be 5 1/4"  with 1 1/4" thread on one side and 5/8" on the other.
(Note: I have been told that studs are available that have 18 pitch threads on
one side; I don't want to go that route and have different torque specs for
the bolts and the studs.)  Technically, I only need to find a source for the
studs, but would like to avoid mixing different brands.

As always, thanks in advance!

Jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 24 15:15:05 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:15:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generic Head Bolts/Studs
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W10078E20C54EE4B44B2DB6CC520@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W10078E20C54EE4B44B2DB6CC520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <017c01cc32b3$cab1b380$60151a80$@rr.com>

> (Re-using 45 year old bolts
> when I
> rebuilt the engine is probably the reason I need to replace the gasket
> now.)

Seems very unlikely to me, unless they were damaged in some fashion
(especially the threads were distorted just outside the block/nut).  I drove
to work this morning with 55-year-old studs, and the previous head gasket
problem proved to be improper dimensions (apparently a factory defect).

If the threads look OK visually (not knife edged or pitted from rust) and
you can spin a new nut easily all the way down, then IMO they should be
fine.

Sorry I can't help otherwise, except to note that MMC sells 3/8-24
all-thread in grade B7 (which is slightly stronger than SAE Grade 5).

-- Randall 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Jun 24 19:53:33 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:53:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
Message-ID: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys,

Anyone else using Blackstone labs or other services for oil & fluid 
analysis?  I sent off samples of oil and ATF from my mom's 2003 BMW 530. 
  She's been going by the dashboard "service soon" indicator, which 
works out to over 15,000 miles between oil changes (!!!)  BMW also 
claims the ATF and differential oil are "lifetime" durable.  I called 
bull on that, and have started doing oil changes for her, and swapped 
the ATF.  Sent samples to Blackstone, actually hoping for some bad news 
to shock & awe her into taking better care of the thing (she intends to 
keep driving it for a good while.)

Amazingly the 17,500 mile oil and 89,000 ATF came back with pretty good 
results.  Anyone else using Blackstone?  Wanna trade notes?  Don't think 
attachments will go through the list server, but if you're interested, I 
can send you the reports off-list, or post on the web.

-wayne

From racertod at racertodd.com  Sat Jun 25 01:15:58 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 00:15:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110624235729.00c45fc8@mail.avvanta.com>

You wrote:

>Anyone else using Blackstone labs or other services for oil & fluid 
>analysis?  I sent off samples of oil and ATF from my mom's 2003 BMW 
>530.  She's been going by the dashboard "service soon" indicator, which 
>works out to over 15,000 miles between oil changes (!!!)  BMW also claims 
>the ATF and differential oil are "lifetime" durable.  I called bull on 
>that, and have started doing oil changes for her, and swapped the 
>ATF.  Sent samples to Blackstone, actually hoping for some bad news to 
>shock & awe her into taking better care of the thing (she intends to keep 
>driving it for a good while.)
>
>Amazingly the 17,500 mile oil and 89,000 ATF came back with pretty good 
>results.  Anyone else using Blackstone?  Wanna trade notes?  Don't think 
>attachments will go through the list server, but if you're interested, I 
>can send you the reports off-list, or post on the web.

         I've used Blackstone for 12 reports over 120,000 miles in the 
TDI.  Blackstone is very well respected in the TDI world.

         VW specs out 10,000 miles oil changes for my TDI.  Synthetic oils 
required.  I was used to changing oil at 5,000 (with synthetic) or 2,500 
(with dino oil) in my old Golf, so I felt a bit nervous about the longer 
interval.
         On my first UOA I paid the extra $10 for a TBN (Total Base Number) 
test.  Oil turns acidic over time, so there is a additive in the oil that 
is a base to counteract that.  The TBN on virgin oil will generally be 
around 10-13 or so.  The TBN number drops as the additive is "used up".  If 
the TBN number falls to zero, the acids will cause excessive wear.
         My TBN test showed the TBN after 10,000 miles was 2.1 - therefore 
the additive package was still functioning.  Wear metals were well within spec.
         Many TDI owners are running extended oil change intervals, up to 
15,000 and more.  Some sample periodically and change when the test shows a 
need.  Others retrofit the European oil sensor, activate the "service" 
light on the dash and use that as a guide.

         Bottom line, modern engines and modern oils can use much longer 
intervals than in the old days.  The days of 3,000 miles oil changes are 
over.  Do a UOA with the TBN test and accept the facts...


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       290,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From jem at milleredp.com  Sat Jun 25 09:29:29 2011
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 08:29:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20110624235729.00c45fc8@mail.avvanta.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20110624235729.00c45fc8@mail.avvanta.com>
Message-ID: <4E05FED9.2080507@milleredp.com>

> VW specs out 10,000 miles oil changes for my TDI. Synthetic oils
> required.

...just 'synthetic' doesn't cover it with newer diesels, there's a very 
limited selection of oils you can use without the potential of a void 
warranty for potentially buggering the emission controls.

John.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sat Jun 25 10:50:25 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:50:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>

I've heard of this before and I always wondered what the purpose was.  
Any engine will wear, and there will be trace metals in the oil.  If 
your analysis says that there are trace metals in the oil but the engine 
is running fine, what are you supposed to do about it?  I don't think 
you would immediately put new rings and bearings in.  And if you aren't 
going past your required change intervals then you just keep driving the 
car until you get indications that there are really problems with rings 
or bearing clearances.

As for 15k oil change intervals- I would not do that personally.  Most 
cars used to recommend oil change intervals less than half that, and I 
thought those intervals were not conservative enough.  I have gone with 
3k or 4k miles for my own vehicles, using normal dyno oil, and around 
30k for the automatic transmissions.  My current car has the computer in 
the dash that tells you when an oil change is required, and it also runs 
Mobil 1, but the computer generally asks for an oil change somewhere 
around 6k miles.  Of course there are people out there who never change 
their oil, they just occasionally pour more in.  I've worked in my 
father's garage enough to see what the results of prolonged oil change 
intervals are, and I don't want to do that to my engines.  Even if the 
oil keeps lubricating the bearings, it builds up deposits and will lead 
to clogging of passages and so forth.  Of course YMMV, and everyone gets 
to choose their own service intervals, pay their money and take their 
chances.

> Anyone else using Blackstone labs or other services for oil & fluid 
> analysis?  I sent off samples of oil and ATF from my mom's 2003 BMW 
> 530.  She's been going by the dashboard "service soon" indicator, 
> which works out to over 15,000 miles between oil changes (!!!)  BMW 
> also claims the ATF and differential oil are "lifetime" durable.  I 
> called bull on that, and have started doing oil changes for her, and 
> swapped the ATF.  Sent samples to Blackstone, actually hoping for some 
> bad news to shock & awe her into taking better care of the thing (she 
> intends to keep driving it for a good while.)

From racertod at racertodd.com  Sat Jun 25 12:10:46 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E05FED9.2080507@milleredp.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20110624235729.00c45fc8@mail.avvanta.com>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20110624235729.00c45fc8@mail.avvanta.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110625110529.00bd0238@mail.avvanta.com>

John wrote:
>>VW specs out 10,000 miles oil changes for my TDI. Synthetic oils
>>required.

         True.  Every manufacturer sets out oil specifications for their 
engines.  Some oils will state on the bottle, "meets Ford spec 1234, Chevy 
spec 556", etc.  In my 2001 TDI, I use Shell Rotella-T 5W-40 which meets VW 
spec 505.00 for my car.  There are actually quite a few oils that meet the 
505.00 spec, so I can choose from several.
         In newer VW diesels, I'd need an oil that meets their 507.00 
standards due to the particulate filter in those cars.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       290,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From racertod at racertodd.com  Sat Jun 25 12:32:37 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:32:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <EEB503AC9FBD4B4D8C60732B6AD8F24F@amicroinc.local>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20110624235729.00c45fc8@mail.avvanta.com>
	<4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20110624235729.00c45fc8@mail.avvanta.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110625111054.00c4fd18@mail.avvanta.com>

Tony wrote:
>I used Blackstone in the past. What disturbs me is that I sent in the oil
>from my Elise. At 18K. After the 18K oil change I stored my car for the
>winter. Did not start it or run it. When I started to get ready for spring,
>as my warranty was running out, I checked the cams for the dreaded early
>wear issue. And I had it. My cams were visibly worn and Blackstone did not
>show anything unusual in the sample I sent them 5 months earlier. Keep in
>mind that I did not drive the car for those 5 months.
>
>Now I am not blasting them, or anything like that. I am just telling you
>what transpired. As I recall the only thing unusual was a high silica and as
>I recall a little high on the nickel. Now I don't know what level triggers a
>concern and how they interpret their levels. All I can say is the I had an
>on going issue and they did not pick up on it.

         Perhaps the wear occurred in the prior oil change cycle and thus 
didn't get picked up in that UOA?

         On my TDI, I had a lifter fail and snap the timing belt last fall 
and had to recondition the head.  On my next UOA, I could see slightly 
elevated iron and copper as the new lifters bedded into the old cam.  By 
the next UOA, those levels were down to normal.
         On their reports you can compare the "universal averages" column 
(averages for that particular engine type) with the "unit averages" 
(averages for your engine).  Based on the comments on my 12 reports, they 
look for numbers outside the range for either your engine or that engine 
family overall.  Maybe those engines tend to have high iron numbers because 
of the cam issue and thus the iron number didn't trigger any comments from 
them.  Just guessing.

         In any case, a UOA is not the be all and end all of engine 
diagnosing.  It is a tool that helps evaluate oil performance and can give 
some general idea of engine health.
         I do UOA on each oil change because this is my work car.  A UOA 
report may give me advance warning of an issue - high water or antifreeze 
may indicate a failing head gasket.  High wear metals indicate different 
areas of concern - chromium in likely from the rings, iron from cams or 
rods, lead\tin\copper from bearings.  High silica is generally from dirt 
getting past the air filter.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       290,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From racertod at racertodd.com  Sat Jun 25 13:08:34 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 12:08:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110625113915.00c4bf40@mail.avvanta.com>

BJNoSHOV8 wrote:

>I've heard of this before and I always wondered what the purpose was.
>Any engine will wear, and there will be trace metals in the oil.  If your 
>analysis says that there are trace metals in the oil but the engine is 
>running fine, what are you supposed to do about it?  I don't think you 
>would immediately put new rings and bearings in.  And if you aren't going 
>past your required change intervals then you just keep driving the car 
>until you get indications that there are really problems with rings or 
>bearing clearances.

         As I said in my last post, a UOA is a tool to help evaluate oil 
performance.  You can't tell much of anything about oil visually so you 
need a tool to interpret the invisible.  You can't see or feel spark 
impulses so you need a timing light to interpret them for you.  Your senses 
won't tell you the freezing point of coolant, the pressure in the fuel 
system, the resistance of a ignition coil or the clearance in a main 
bearing so you need tools to interpret that for you.

         It's similar to doing, say, a compression test.  You do the test 
and find #2 cylinder a bit low.  Not below minimum spec, just 20-30 lbs 
lower than the rest.  Do you immediately rebuild the engine?  No.  You 
evaluate that one piece of info in relation to everything else you know 
about the engine.  You may decide since the engine runs fine, with no other 
obvious problems, to simply keep an eye on that situation.  You check 
compression occasionally and at some point when it gets low enough you 
decide to do some more diagnosis.  A leakdown test shows leakage past the 
valves.  Now you evaluate whether a head rebuild is warranted or 
not.  Again, that info is evaluated in relation to other info about the 
engine, your financial situation, how long you plan to keep the car, etc.

         In each case, a tool can only give you one bit of info.  That is 
integrated with other bits of info from other tools including your own 
eyes, ears, nose and years of experience.  Hopefully, all that info will 
lead you to correctly identify a current or pending problem.

         If I were to see iron, lead and copper start to rise over several 
UOAs, I'd start looking at bearings to see if I can see any wear.  If I 
pulled the oil pan and discovered a worn rod bearing and was able to 
replace it before it trashed the crank - I just saved big bucks.  By the 
time I could hear a rod knock, I'd be out thousands for a rebuild.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       290,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Jun 25 13:20:49 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 15:20:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4E063511.4060400@xxiii.com>

On 6/25/2011 12:50 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:
> I've heard of this before and I always wondered what the purpose was.
> Any engine will wear, and there will be trace metals in the oil. If your
> analysis says that there are trace metals in the oil but the engine is

Good point, hadn't thought about it quite like that.  Changing very 
frequently is safe;  but expensive and environmentally unfriendly. 
Guess the idea is to see how long you can stretch it out, and if the 
lube you're running is adequate.  Pretty much given any oil is adequate 
for street use for 3k;  but if you're racing or otherwise running hard 
it lets you know if you're going over the edge.

One of Blackstone's marketing points is, if you're doing auto fleet 
maintenance or industrial equipment, then the savings in labor across 
many identical vehicles or machines can be substantial if you stretch it 
as far as possible.

Here's their blurb from the BMW engine with 17,200 miles on the oil:

"Note aluminum and iron. We don't know on this first sample whether this 
upper-end wear is from something operational (racing, driving hard) or 
just the long oil runs, but if the owner has been doing normal driving, 
then 17,000+ miles is a little long to run the oil. A shorter oil change 
would probably help bring wear down, so we suggest trying a 10,000 mile 
run and resampling to monitor. Wear should drop nicely, and we found no 
coolant, moisture, or fuel in the oil. The TBN read 1.8, still okay on 
active additive. The viscosity went high from the long use."

Stuff like the gas and coolant in the oil can give you an advance 
warning on problems that could get much more expensive to fix if you are 
unaware of them.

-Wayne

From bobkegel at comcast.net  Sat Jun 25 16:11:19 2011
From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 15:11:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] quiet compressor
In-Reply-To: <4E01D36F.4050307@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <80BC8F5035D94765B6E6351B6F423DE2@robertve2wc7wm>

> I was going to suggest a dentist's air compressor...

I was talking with my dentist - actually I was listening, you can't have a
conversation with you mouth full of instruments - and he was grousing that
his new "dental" air compressor was pretty much identical to the industrial
model one of his patients had paid substantially less for.

I've never heard a compressor during my visits to the dentist, probably
because it's outside in a little shed.

Bob K

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 19:24:58 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 20:24:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>

On Jun 25, 2011, at 11:50 AM, BJNoSHOV8 <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> As for 15k oil change intervals- I would not do that personally.   
> Most cars used to recommend oil change intervals less than half  
> that, and I thought those intervals were not conservative enough.  I

It's 2011.  There are better ways to chose your oil change interval  
than "I thought". Used oil analysis can tell you an awful lot about  
the actual state of the oil.  It's a waste of money and natural  
resources to change your oil before it's needed, and changing it at3k  
because that's what you've always done is firmly in the wastefull zone.
Again,  it's 2011, oil and oil additive packages are way way better  
than they ever have been. Enjoy living in future.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sat Jun 25 20:11:28 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 21:11:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
	<E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com>

You've got it all wrong, I don't do 3k miles anymore.  Now I do 4k miles.




Actually my understanding is that oil has gotten worse recently, 
something about removing the additives that protect against friction.


> It's 2011.  There are better ways to chose your oil change interval 
> than "I thought". Used oil analysis can tell you an awful lot about 
> the actual state of the oil.  It's a waste of money and natural 
> resources to change your oil before it's needed, and changing it at3k 
> because that's what you've always done is firmly in the wastefull zone.
> Again,  it's 2011, oil and oil additive packages are way way better 
> than they ever have been. Enjoy living in future.

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Jun 25 20:42:46 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 02:42:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1705570411.20076.1309056166614.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

re: " Actually my understanding is that oil has gotten worse recently, 
something about removing the additives that protect against friction." 

That would be ZDDP. All but removed from the latest oil formulations--except some 20W-50 oils--because it damages catalytic converters, causing cars to run smoggier. 

By all accounts, a non-issue unless you're running a pushrod engine with solid, 'flat' lifters. There are reports of premature cam failures on this type of engine, but I haven't heard of any problems with hydraulic lifter or OHC engines (which is pretty much all newer engines). 

Bob 

-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

----- Original Message -----
From: "BJNoSHOV8" <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> 
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 7:11:28 PM 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone 

You've got it all wrong, I don't do 3k miles anymore. Now I do 4k miles. 




Actually my understanding is that oil has gotten worse recently, 
something about removing the additives that protect against friction. 


> It's 2011. There are better ways to chose your oil change interval 
> than "I thought". Used oil analysis can tell you an awful lot about 
> the actual state of the oil. It's a waste of money and natural 
> resources to change your oil before it's needed, and changing it at3k 
> because that's what you've always done is firmly in the wastefull zone. 
> Again, it's 2011, oil and oil additive packages are way way better 
> than they ever have been. Enjoy living in future. 
_______________________________________________ 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 20:47:29 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 21:47:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
	<E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>
	<4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <07570F2B-F599-48B7-8C9D-580D955C2CD4@gmail.com>

On Jun 25, 2011, at 9:11 PM, BJNoSHOV8 <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:

> You've got it all wrong, I don't do 3k miles anymore.  Now I do 4k  
> miles.
>
>
>
>
> Actually my understanding is that oil has gotten worse recently,  
> something about removing the additives that protect against friction.
>

No. Not at all.

Certain sorts of additives that ancient engines, designed based   
depend on have been reduced.  It's a non issue for modern engines,  
which are largely designed around modern lubricants. Even in the case  
of old-fashioned engines designed around in sufficent lubricants, oil  
analysis will tell you when you've left your oil too long.



>
>> It's 2011.  Thereto are better ways to chose your oil change  
>> interval than "I thought". Used oil analysis can tell you an awful  
>> lot about the actual state of the oil.  It's a waste of money and  
>> natural resources to change your oil before it's needed, and  
>> changing it at3k because that's what you've always done is firmly  
>> in the wastefull zone.
>> Again,  it's 2011, oil and oil additive packages are way way better  
>> than they ever have been. Enjoy living in future.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From jem at milleredp.com  Sat Jun 25 22:46:58 2011
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 21:46:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
	<E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>
	<4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4E06B9C2.1070102@milleredp.com>

> Actually my understanding is that oil has gotten worse recently,
> something about removing the additives that protect against friction.

That depends on the engine.

Since about API SJ (ten years ago) oils have been losing their 
zinc-based extreme-pressure additives.

This is a response to how US automakers want to handle EPA catalyst-life 
requirements.

The Euro automakers haven't entirely agreed with this approach.

For modern engines with low-tension rings and roller cam followers and 
etc. it doesn't matter.

For older engines, especially flat-tappet pushrod engines but really any 
engine with a lot of bits that slide on each other under high pressure, 
it can be a very bad thing.

>> It's 2011. There are better ways to chose your oil change interval
>> than "I thought". Used oil analysis can tell you an awful lot about
>> the actual state of the oil. It's a waste of money and natural
>> resources to change your oil before it's needed, and changing it at3k
>> because that's what you've always done is firmly in the wastefull zone.
>> Again, it's 2011, oil and oil additive packages are way way better
>> than they ever have been. Enjoy living in future.

If you want to pay $1.49 a quart or whatever no-name generic oil is 
going for, it's no better and maybe worse (see above) than it's been for 
a long time.

If you're paying $7.50+ a quart for the good stuff, then for modern 
engines at least it's better than what we've had in past years.

3000 mile changes make little sense, but whether you should be changing 
at 5000, 6000, 8000, or whatever depends on the car and the oil.

The Germans like big (7, 8, 9-liter) oil capacities, VERY stringent oil 
specs for high-temperature viscosity stability (ACEA A3/B3, BMW 
LL01/LL04, MB 229.2, VAG 502.00) and 12-16K oil changes - we've got 
three vehicles that fit in that category and I change them all at 7-8K. 
  Japanese and American mfrs go for smaller sumps, much thinner oil for 
better CAFE results, and shorter change intervals.

And if you've got a modern particulate-trap diesel, you've got a whole 
'nother set of specs to deal with.

John.

From jem at milleredp.com  Sat Jun 25 22:53:50 2011
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 21:53:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <1705570411.20076.1309056166614.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1705570411.20076.1309056166614.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4E06BB5E.9050107@milleredp.com>

> By all accounts, a non-issue unless you're running a pushrod engine
> with solid, 'flat' lifters. There are reports of premature cam
> failures on this type of engine, but I haven't heard of any problems
> with hydraulic lifter or OHC engines (which is pretty much all newer
> engines).

No, any 'flat-tappet' - that is, mechanical or hydraulic lash adjustment 
but non-roller lifter sliding on cam lobe - engine is at risk from 
reduced ZDDP levels.

As are some OHC motors, typically those running stiffer-than-stock 
valvesprings with aftermarket cams on bucket or other sliding-type lifters.

There's lots of good reasons to build your engines with roller-type 
valve actuation hardware where possible, and this is just another.

IIRC API SJ was the last really 'good' oil, SL had half the ZDDP, SM was 
halved again from SL, and I now see an SN and I have no idea what it's got.

John.

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Jun 26 09:52:52 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:52:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
Message-ID: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Our 1965 Mustang conv. (289/2bbl) with 4-wheel drums and power assist has crummy braking. We've narrowed the problem down to (probably) hard, semi-metallic brake shoes. OEM liner material works better, but it's hard to find anything that isn't some sort of kevlar/carbon, etc. material, which we're leery of and is mostly for racing. 

Any old Mustang gurus--or young Mustang gurus that know old Mustangs--know of a good brand or material that gives good stopping on a street-driven car? 

TIA, 
Bob 

-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 10:14:10 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:14:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTim11zF1f=bhXvBKNbCHBdagCZt2cA@mail.gmail.com>

You want to keep the drums, Bob?
On Jun 26, 2011 11:11 AM, "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> Our 1965 Mustang conv. (289/2bbl) with 4-wheel drums and power assist has
crummy braking. We've narrowed the problem down to (probably) hard,
semi-metallic brake shoes. OEM liner material works better, but it's hard to
find anything that isn't some sort of kevlar/carbon, etc. material, which
we're leery of and is mostly for racing.
>
> Any old Mustang gurus--or young Mustang gurus that know old Mustangs--know
of a good brand or material that gives good stopping on a street-driven car?

>
> TIA,
> Bob
>
> --------------------------------
> Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Jun 26 10:26:39 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 16:26:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTim11zF1f=bhXvBKNbCHBdagCZt2cA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <117132793.29079.1309105599198.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Yep. It's an all-stock original (bought new by Alice Faye, if anyone remembers her). 

We spent an hour last night looking for the original air filter wingnut that got dropped, because you can't find a replacement that is exactly the same. 

Bob 

-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hall" <scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> 
To: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>, Shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 9:14:10 AM 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes 



You want to keep the drums, Bob? 
On Jun 26, 2011 11:11 AM, "Bob Spidell" < bspidell at comcast.net > wrote: 
> Our 1965 Mustang conv. (289/2bbl) with 4-wheel drums and power assist has crummy braking. We've narrowed the problem down to (probably) hard, semi-metallic brake shoes. OEM liner material works better, but it's hard to find anything that isn't some sort of kevlar/carbon, etc. material, which we're leery of and is mostly for racing. 
> 
> Any old Mustang gurus--or young Mustang gurus that know old Mustangs--know of a good brand or material that gives good stopping on a street-driven car? 
> 
> TIA, 
> Bob 
> 
> -------------------------------- 
> Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 
> _______________________________________________ 
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> Suggested annual donation $12.96 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive 
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jun 26 11:03:27 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:03:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4E07665F.3010600@xxiii.com>

Resto-Mod!!!  Score some discs and one of the new bad a** engines, 
transmission, 15" or 16" wheels, and, umm... a few thou later (that part 
kinda sucks) your brake job is all done!

Ok, crappy answer.  But as I've said here before, I really don't get 
into old cars.  I have been impressed with some of the resto-mod stuff 
where they've updated all the mechanicals.  And the new V8s Ford and GM 
are turning out?  Wow!  How'd they do that?  You're supposed to have to 
ditch the push rods to make that happen?!  All good though.  There are 
no awards in engineering for complexity for its own sake!  And the 
things even get good mpg.

Sounds like something better to bounce off a Mustang list.  Popular as 
Stang's are, there's probably something out there with a list of good 
parts & upgrades, or info on what's easy to grab from the junkyard for 
an update?

-Wayne

On 6/26/2011 11:52 AM, Bob Spidell wrote:
> Our 1965 Mustang conv. (289/2bbl) with 4-wheel drums and power assist has crummy braking. We've narrowed the problem down to (probably) hard, semi-metallic brake shoes. OEM liner material works better, but it's hard to find anything that isn't some sort of kevlar/carbon, etc. material, which we're leery of and is mostly for racing.
> Any old Mustang gurus--or young Mustang gurus that know old Mustangs--know of a good brand or material that gives good stopping on a street-driven car?

From jem at milleredp.com  Sun Jun 26 11:30:05 2011
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:30:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <4E07665F.3010600@xxiii.com>
References: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4E07665F.3010600@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4E076C9D.3070204@milleredp.com>

> Ok, crappy answer. But as I've said here before, I really don't get into
> old cars. I have been impressed with some of the resto-mod stuff where
> they've updated all the mechanicals. And the new V8s Ford and GM are
> turning out? Wow! How'd they do that? You're supposed to have to ditch
> the push rods to make that happen?!

Not hardly; the pushrod GM LS-family motors are in general more compact, 
more powerful, cheaper to build, and comparable on BSFC to their OHC 
Ford counterparts.

> Sounds like something better to bounce off a Mustang list. Popular as
> Stang's are, there's probably something out there with a list of good
> parts & upgrades, or info on what's easy to grab from the junkyard for
> an update?

The 10in Mustang/Falcon/etc. drum brakes are pretty bad, in my 
experience, I recall in my younger days mine would not have brakes for 
half a block after driving through a puddle.

That said, brake lining materials have come a long, long way in the past 
forty years.  Old-fashioned organic lining material worked well when 
cold but barely worked at all when hot; many older-style metallic 
linings worked very well hot but barely worked at all when cold (as well 
as being remarkably noisy.)

You can do better these days.  Call Porterfield 
(http://www.porterfield-brakes.com) and tell them what you need - I've 
had good luck with their R-4S lining material having good 'bite' when 
cold (it's also a very good street disc pad) and they may have other 
options for you as well (they do a lot of drum-brake linings for vintage 
racers, etc.)

John.

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Sun Jun 26 12:24:24 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 11:24:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E06B9C2.1070102@milleredp.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
	<E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>
	<4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com> <4E06B9C2.1070102@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <4E077958.7040306@frontier.com>

OK, I have a 1986 BMW R80RT (motorcycle) with pushrods and solid 
lifters.  Any recommendations for oil for a vintage engine (I have been 
using GTX 20W50).  Aero oils?



John Miller wrote:
>
> For older engines, especially flat-tappet pushrod engines but really any
> engine with a lot of bits that slide on each other under high pressure,
> it can be a very bad thing.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Jun 26 12:45:34 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:45:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
Message-ID: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406>

I've got a Generac 30kw backup/standby home generator. 6 years old... probably
less than 50 hours actual run time.  Ford v-6 engine... self exercising...auto
cutover... every week it starts itself up and runs a half hour of so to charge
the batteries.. Lately I hadn't remembered hearing it running... I opened the
covers and tried the manual mode...  It's a typical Battery thru solonoid to
starter lug that Ford has run for years...  the solonoid chatters for a few
seconds.... pauses...chatters some more.
no start

the battery is charged 13.6 volts at the starter terminals.. all connections
are tight.  Where to start looking for a problem.?????..

 it feels like the Bendix on the starter is clicking.. but can't tell if it's
engaging...  should I pull the starter/bendix and see what's going on there.
I would think with ample voltage the solonoid should just lock in and hold
till the starter engages, right ???    Weak solonoid spring ???

any suggestions or troubleshooting ideas ???

anybody wanna come over in 97 degrees and play with it ???

thanks
John






I've learned in life that my primary goal
 is to serve as a bad example

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Sun Jun 26 13:10:51 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:10:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406>
References: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <4E07843B.9020106@frontier.com>

Could still be a bad battery.  I have had situations where the battery 
showed full voltage but still wouldn't provide the current for starting. 
  I'd try a different battery (or maybe a jump start?) before I did 
anything else.

John Niolon wrote:
> I've got a Generac 30kw backup/standby home generator. 6 years old... probably
> less than 50 hours actual run time.  Ford v-6 engine... self exercising...auto
> cutover... every week it starts itself up and runs a half hour of so to charge
> the batteries.. Lately I hadn't remembered hearing it running... I opened the
> covers and tried the manual mode...  It's a typical Battery thru solonoid to
> starter lug that Ford has run for years...  the solonoid chatters for a few
> seconds.... pauses...chatters some more.
> no start
>
> the battery is charged 13.6 volts at the starter terminals.. all connections
> are tight.  Where to start looking for a problem.?????..
>
>   it feels like the Bendix on the starter is clicking.. but can't tell if it's
> engaging...  should I pull the starter/bendix and see what's going on there.
> I would think with ample voltage the solonoid should just lock in and hold
> till the starter engages, right ???    Weak solonoid spring ???
>
> any suggestions or troubleshooting ideas ???
>
> anybody wanna come over in 97 degrees and play with it ???
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>   is to serve as a bad example
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Jun 26 13:23:14 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:23:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <20110626192314.GJ991.62762.root@cdptpa-web12-z01>

What that describes to me is the solenoid on the fender.  One big wire comes from the battery, the other big wire goes to the starter, one small wire comes from the starter switch.

You can use a screwdriver or whatever convenient metal object to troubleshoot it.
If you short from the battery wire to the small wire and it starts, then the switch is bad.
If you short from the battery wire to the big starter wire and it starts, then the solenoid is bad.
If none of this makes the starter engage then the starter is bad.

Or any of these cable connections could be bad.



> It's a typical Battery thru solonoid to
> starter lug that Ford has run for years...

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Jun 26 13:35:52 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:35:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <4E076C9D.3070204@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <20110626193553.0UHLD.62812.root@cdptpa-web12-z01>

Well pushrods have no direct bearing on the power that an engine makes.  The VALVES are what contribute to the operation of the engine, and when and how far they open.  HOW they open is secondary.  Whether the valve is opened by a pushrod and rocker arm, or an OHC and rocker follower, or an OHC and bucket, the valve just doesn't care.  So you can put the cams wherever you want and they will still work.

There are some implications to the cam position and resulting valvetrain, and they can affect the design of the engine and to some degree its performance.  For instance OHC's are typically assumed to be required for high rpm operation.  They do make it easier for an engine to achieve high rpm's, but pushrod racing engines are easily capable of 8k rpm and more.  If you want higher rpm than that you usually use OHC.  OHC engines can also make it easier to run more than 2 valves per cylinder, or to use combustion chamber layouts that help with breathing, but the Chrysler Hemi is one of the best for breating and it was invented in the 1950's using pushrods.  Pushrod engines can have an advantage in terms of valve lift- the multiplication provided by the rocker arms can give valve lifts of .6" and more, that you can't get with OHC direct-impinging systems.  OHC systems do make the engine larger and more complex, and more expensive.

For almost 20 years I've driven Ford Taurus SHO's, with DOHC 4 valve per cylinder engines.  The engines were great but they needed more cam to really achieve their potential.  My first one developed 73 hp/litre naturally aspirated, which was pretty good for an engine developed in the 1980's.  Now I have a car with the GM LS-2 pushrod V8, 2 valve per cylinder.  It develops 67 hp/litre.  The latest Ford Mustang V8 seems to be a great performing engine.  IIRC it is about 400hp out of 5 liters, which makes 80 hp/litre.  It was probably a challenge to fit that large engine into the Mustang engine compartment.


> > And the new V8s Ford and GM are
> > turning out? Wow! How'd they do that? You're supposed to have to ditch
> > the push rods to make that happen?!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Jun 26 13:41:34 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:41:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
References: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406>
	<4E07843B.9020106@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>

more info...   went out in the 97 degrees  and disconnected the starter from 
the engine... hooked up   battery charger to the starter directly and it 
spun away... hooked up to the bendix and it kicked the gear out for 
engagement with the flywheel...   so I stuck it all back together and tried 
it again... (nothing stuck on the starter...check

hooked the battery charger to the battery and put it in start mode 
120amp... and I still get the 5 or 6 clicks from the relay but have 
confirmed that each click does actuate the bendix but the bendix will not 
stay engaged...

David,  I'm about to go along with your diagnosis of battery...  gonna cool 
off a little and run a load test on the battery... that should be my easiest 
fix in  time AND money    but it might wait till the sun gets behind the 
trees... it's hot


john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David C." <cavanadd at frontier.com>
To: "John Niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
Cc: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???


> Could still be a bad battery.  I have had situations where the battery 
> showed full voltage but still wouldn't provide the current for starting. 
> I'd try a different battery (or maybe a jump start?) before I did anything 
> else.
>
> John Niolon wrote:
>> I've got a Generac 30kw backup/standby home generator. 6 years old... 
>> probably
>> less than 50 hours actual run time.  Ford v-6 engine... self 
>> exercising...auto
>> cutover... every week it starts itself up and runs a half hour of so to 
>> charge
>> the batteries.. Lately I hadn't remembered hearing it running... I opened 
>> the
>> covers and tried the manual mode...  It's a typical Battery thru solonoid 
>> to
>> starter lug that Ford has run for years...  the solonoid chatters for a 
>> few
>> seconds.... pauses...chatters some more.
>> no start
>>
>> the battery is charged 13.6 volts at the starter terminals.. all 
>> connections
>> are tight.  Where to start looking for a problem.?????..
>>
>>   it feels like the Bendix on the starter is clicking.. but can't tell if 
>> it's
>> engaging...  should I pull the starter/bendix and see what's going on 
>> there.
>> I would think with ample voltage the solonoid should just lock in and 
>> hold
>> till the starter engages, right ???    Weak solonoid spring ???
>>
>> any suggestions or troubleshooting ideas ???
>>
>> anybody wanna come over in 97 degrees and play with it ???
>>
>> thanks
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>>   is to serve as a bad example
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1513/3727 - Release Date: 06/26/11

From mdporter at dfn.com  Sun Jun 26 14:17:59 2011
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:17:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <20110626193553.0UHLD.62812.root@cdptpa-web12-z01>
References: <20110626193553.0UHLD.62812.root@cdptpa-web12-z01>
Message-ID: <4E0793F7.30808@dfn.com>

On 6/26/2011 1:35 PM, bjshov8 at tx.rr.com wrote:
> The latest Ford Mustang V8 seems to be a great performing engine.  IIRC it is about 400hp out of 5 liters, which makes 80 hp/litre.  It was probably a challenge to fit that large engine into the Mustang engine compartment.

Umm, just to keep things in perspective, five liters displacement is 305 
c.i.    That's a marginally larger displacement (about 5.5% larger) than 
the original 289 c.i. engine plunked into the original 1965 Mustang, 
which was slightly smaller, overall, than the current Mustangs.  All 
things being equal, I also suspect that the basic 305 c.i. block is 
probably lighter and a bit more compact than the earlier engines. As to 
horsepower, Carroll Shelby was getting ~ 350 hp out of the 289 block in 
the `60s, the reason why his GT-350s were named as such--and without 
fuel injection and computerized engine management.


Cheers.







-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jun 26 15:37:17 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 17:37:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>
References: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406>
	<4E07843B.9020106@frontier.com>
	<1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110626172546.04c0c678@cox.net>

At 03:41 PM 6/26/2011, John Niolon wrote:

 >more info...   went out in the 97 degrees  and disconnected the 
starter from the engine... hooked up  battery charger to
 >the starter directly and it spun away... hooked up to the bendix 
and it kicked the gear out for engagement with the
 >flywheel...   so I stuck it all back together and tried it again... 
(nothing stuck on the starter...check

John,

Well, that sure sounds like the starter is OK.

 >hooked the battery charger to the battery and put it in start mode 
120amp... and I still get the 5 or 6 clicks from the relay
 >but have confirmed that each click does actuate the bendix but the 
bendix will not stay engaged...

The Battery charger and the battery, act like a good battery.  So 
that infers that the main wire to the starter is bad.

You can check that out, but checking the voltage at the battery when 
you are trying to crank the engine.  The battery
voltage should be above 11V when cranking.  If not, then the battery 
or the charger isn't working, or you have a bad connection.  Now 
check the voltage at the starter of the main power wire.  It too 
should be above 11V.  If not measure
the voltage drop on the main feed wire.  Place the positive lead on 
the positive battery terminal and the negative meter
lead on the main power wire at the starter, and try to start the 
engine.  The voltage on the meter should be less than 1V.

If not, there is either a bad connection at the battery, starter, or 
the the connectors on the wire are bad, or the wire is
broken in the unsulation.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Jun 26 16:04:37 2011
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:04:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>
References: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406><4E07843B.9020106@frontier.com>
	<1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <A95D09133E484A759D60502D12FDD532@EricJRussellPC>

Although the battery cable -> starter cables may look OK and feel tight it 
is a Good Idea to remove, clean & secure each one. The starter is a big 
current draw. One iffy connection (or a few slightly iffy connections) can 
prevent enough electrons from being able to flow to operate the starter. 
Even if it still proves to be a bad battery or another component 
cleaning/securing all connections is not time wasted (and no money is wasted 
either!).

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 

> hooked the battery charger to the battery and put it in start mode 
> 120amp... and I still get the 5 or 6 clicks from the relay but have 
> confirmed that each click does actuate the bendix but the bendix will not 
> stay engaged...

>>> the battery is charged 13.6 volts at the starter terminals.. all 
>>> connections are tight.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Jun 26 16:06:13 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 17:06:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???  solved
References: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406><4E07843B.9020106@frontier.com><1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110626172546.04c0c678@cox.net>
Message-ID: <06577DDC87404689B63D515A284FB3C1@john5043a2d406>

did a load test on the battery... it showed 13.99 volts... but when I put 
the load cell on it... it dropped to 6.9 volts in about 2 seconds and only 
recovered to about 8.3...   battery is 6 years old so I guess I got my time 
out of it...

thanks for all the suggestions   off to buy a new battery...

john

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???


> At 03:41 PM 6/26/2011, John Niolon wrote:
>
> >more info...   went out in the 97 degrees  and disconnected the
> starter from the engine... hooked up  battery charger to
> >the starter directly and it spun away... hooked up to the bendix
> and it kicked the gear out for engagement with the
> >flywheel...   so I stuck it all back together and tried it again...
> (nothing stuck on the starter...check
>
> John,
>
> Well, that sure sounds like the starter is OK.
>
> >hooked the battery charger to the battery and put it in start mode
> 120amp... and I still get the 5 or 6 clicks from the relay
> >but have confirmed that each click does actuate the bendix but the
> bendix will not stay engaged...
>
> The Battery charger and the battery, act like a good battery.  So that 
> infers that the main wire to the starter is bad.
>
> You can check that out, but checking the voltage at the battery when you 
> are trying to crank the engine.  The battery
> voltage should be above 11V when cranking.  If not, then the battery or 
> the charger isn't working, or you have a bad connection.  Now check the 
> voltage at the starter of the main power wire.  It too should be above 
> 11V.  If not measure
> the voltage drop on the main feed wire.  Place the positive lead on the 
> positive battery terminal and the negative meter
> lead on the main power wire at the starter, and try to start the engine. 
> The voltage on the meter should be less than 1V.
>
> If not, there is either a bad connection at the battery, starter, or the 
> the connectors on the wire are bad, or the wire is
> broken in the unsulation.
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1513/3727 - Release Date: 06/26/11

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Jun 26 16:17:00 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:17:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <4E0793F7.30808@dfn.com>
Message-ID: <20110626221700.OO1UU.33965.root@cdptpa-web05-z01>

The original GT350 was the 271hp version of the 289, modified to produce 306hp.

Of course back in those days Chevrolet was making their 327 in versions up to 370hp.  Nobody had computers back then but Chevy did have mechanical FI.  IIRC the carbureted version of the 327 was available up to 350hp.  I think when the original Chevy Z28 came out it was a 302 rated at 290hp.

But you also have to realize that these numbers are in "old horsepower", and the ratings for the new mustang are "new horsepower".  "Old horsepower" and "new horsepower" are not equal.  "Old horsepower" is just the motor mounted to a dynamometer, nothing else attached to it.  "New horsepower" is with the engine plus all of its accessories- alternator, water pump, power steering pump attached to it, which reduces the horsepower considerably.  So to put it in perspective, for the new mustang 5.0L to produce 400hp is very much more than the old GT350.  Also realize that the old GT350 was built for racing and not for comfort or ease of driving on the street.  The new mustang could probably be driven by your grandmother and she wouldn't realize it was anything out of the ordinary.


> On 6/26/2011 1:35 PM, bjshov8 at tx.rr.com wrote:
> > The latest Ford Mustang V8 seems to be a great performing engine.  IIRC it is about 400hp out of 5 liters, which makes 80 hp/litre.  It was probably a challenge to fit that large engine into the Mustang engine compartment.
> 
> Umm, just to keep things in perspective, five liters displacement is 305 
> c.i.    That's a marginally larger displacement (about 5.5% larger) than 
> the original 289 c.i. engine plunked into the original 1965 Mustang, 
> which was slightly smaller, overall, than the current Mustangs.  All 
> things being equal, I also suspect that the basic 305 c.i. block is 
> probably lighter and a bit more compact than the earlier engines. As to 
> horsepower, Carroll Shelby was getting ~ 350 hp out of the 289 block in 
> the `60s, the reason why his GT-350s were named as such--and without 
> fuel injection and computerized engine management.
> 
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Michael Porter
> Roswell, NM
> 
> 
> Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From shannahquilts at gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 16:41:20 2011
From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:41:20 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1965 Mustang Brakes
In-Reply-To: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <954478330.28283.1309103572777.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinDLdHLsCb-sVPq266ksLBJfQWoRg@mail.gmail.com>

Did you already try Mustang Ranch in Santa Clara, Bob?

It's been years since I worked on Mustangs, but I think that with
all of the improvements in brake linings, it's going to be hard to
find something that's not the "spiffy new stuff suitable for racing".

If it's not a daily driver, one option might be to get them from a
junkyard.

Shannah

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Jun 26 16:46:46 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:46:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E077958.7040306@frontier.com>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
	<E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>
	<4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com> <4E06B9C2.1070102@milleredp.com>
	<4E077958.7040306@frontier.com>
Message-ID: <4E07B6D6.3000508@comcast.net>

This topic has been beat to death on other lists (the Healey list for one).  The consensus is Valvoline VR-1 racing 
still has adequate ZDDP.  Besides that, there are some specialty brands that still have ZDDP, or you can go with a 
synthetic like Redline, or use an additive.   Some swear by diesel oils like Shell(?) Rotella.  Castrol may still have 
some ZDDP in the 20W-50 oil, but the oil companies have been kinda coy about revealing what's really in their stuff.

Dunno about aircraft oils.  Light plane engines are usually hydraulic lifter/pushrod engines, so the oil would  need 
some extreme pressure additive  (and no cat to worry about).  OTOH, A/C oils are formulated to handle the lead still in 
avgas and all the blowby from the sloppy clearances in big air-cooled engines (Mobil 1 for A/C didn't fare well).  
Generally they aren't recommended for automotive use, but might be OK in an air-cooled bike.

Bob



On 6/26/2011 11:24 AM, David C. wrote:
> OK, I have a 1986 BMW R80RT (motorcycle) with pushrods and solid lifters.  Any recommendations for oil for a vintage 
> engine (I have been using GTX 20W50).  Aero oils?
>
>
>
> John Miller wrote:
>>
>> For older engines, especially flat-tappet pushrod engines but really any
>> engine with a lot of bits that slide on each other under high pressure,
>> it can be a very bad thing.
> _______________________________________________
>

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Jun 26 16:49:00 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:49:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E06BB5E.9050107@milleredp.com>
References: <1705570411.20076.1309056166614.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4E06BB5E.9050107@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <4E07B75C.8050906@comcast.net>

You are correct, of course.  I was thinking of roller cams when I wrote 'hydraulic' (shouldn't post so late at night, I 
guess).

Thanks for setting that straight.

Bob

On 6/25/2011 9:53 PM, John Miller wrote:
>> By all accounts, a non-issue unless you're running a pushrod engine
>> with solid, 'flat' lifters. There are reports of premature cam
>> failures on this type of engine, but I haven't heard of any problems
>> with hydraulic lifter or OHC engines (which is pretty much all newer
>> engines).
>
> No, any 'flat-tappet' - that is, mechanical or hydraulic lash adjustment but non-roller lifter sliding on cam lobe - 
> engine is at risk from reduced ZDDP levels.
>
> As are some OHC motors, typically those running stiffer-than-stock valvesprings with aftermarket cams on bucket or 
> other sliding-type lifters.
>
> There's lots of good reasons to build your engines with roller-type valve actuation hardware where possible, and this 
> is just another.
>
> IIRC API SJ was the last really 'good' oil, SL had half the ZDDP, SM was halved again from SL, and I now see an SN and 
> I have no idea what it's got.
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jun 26 17:20:43 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 19:20:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil analysis - Blackstone
In-Reply-To: <4E07B6D6.3000508@comcast.net>
References: <4E053F9D.4030002@xxiii.com> <4E0611D1.3050703@tx.rr.com>
	<E32E54EC-F383-4871-83EF-56F4C605EF77@gmail.com>
	<4E069550.2050902@tx.rr.com> <4E06B9C2.1070102@milleredp.com>
	<4E077958.7040306@frontier.com> <4E07B6D6.3000508@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <0LNF003TZ7IZSC80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Castrol made a 20W-50 "for use in classic cars"
with ZDDP, but they have discontinued it.  Now
they have a 5W-50 that they recommend instead.

Here's the statement from their FAQ:

What is happening to Castrol SYNTEC 20W-50?
Castrol SYNTEC 20W-50 classic car formulation is being replaced by Castrol
with SYNTEC Power Technology 5W-50 viscosity grade. The 5W-50 grade
will also be specially formulated for classic car use and will adopt the
20W-50
claims  designed for use in classic cars. The 5W-50 formulation will contain
more zinc additives than the 20W-50 and will also enhance start up ability in
cold temperatures as well as enable better fuel economy*
Compared to SAE 20W-50.

Here's the link:

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/loc
al_assets/downloads/f/Castrol_EDGE_FAQ.pdf

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 06:46 PM 6/26/2011, Bob Spidell wrote:
>   Castrol may still have some ZDDP in the
> 20W-50 oil, but the oil companies have been
> kinda coy about revealing what's really in their stuff.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jun 26 21:25:38 2011
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 22:25:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <A95D09133E484A759D60502D12FDD532@EricJRussellPC>
References: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406><4E07843B.9020106@frontier.com>
	<1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>
	<A95D09133E484A759D60502D12FDD532@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <4E07F832.1070302@hornesystemstx.com>

One easy way to test high current cables is to put a volt meter across 
the ends of the cable. When large currents should be flowing through the 
cable the voltage drop across the cable should be a volt or two at most. 
If you have a larger drop, the cable (or connection) is bad. Also, try 
shorting across the two large terminals on the solenoid, if the starter 
spins, the problem is the solenoid.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Eric J Russell, On 6/26/2011 5:04 PM:
> Although the battery cable -> starter cables may look OK and feel 
> tight it is a Good Idea to remove, clean & secure each one. The 
> starter is a big current draw. One iffy connection (or a few slightly 
> iffy connections) can prevent enough electrons from being able to flow 
> to operate the starter. Even if it still proves to be a bad battery or 
> another component cleaning/securing all connections is not time wasted 
> (and no money is wasted either!).
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> hooked the battery charger to the battery and put it in start mode 
>> 120amp... and I still get the 5 or 6 clicks from the relay but have 
>> confirmed that each click does actuate the bendix but the bendix will 
>> not stay engaged...
>
>>>> the battery is charged 13.6 volts at the starter terminals.. all 
>>>> connections are tight.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 22:47:47 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:47:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <4E07F832.1070302@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406><4E07843B.9020106@frontier.com>
	<1E134B4BBEBA451C92CA46574E6FE614@john5043a2d406>
	<A95D09133E484A759D60502D12FDD532@EricJRussellPC>
	<4E07F832.1070302@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <3DA6AF5A-D3A8-46BD-97C0-51F7C13887A3@gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2011, at 10:25 PM, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:

> One easy way to test high current cables is to put a volt meter  
> across the ends of the cable. When large currents should be flowing  
> through the cable the voltage drop across the cable should be a volt  
> or two at most.

In car, (which this might as well be) anything over 0.5v is too much,  
unless there's a spec that says otherwise. For a startyrr  I like to  
see. <0.25v.

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun 27 06:43:44 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:43:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <42CCD0344A5641D6B9A2E39B18A85BEB@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <OF221ED402.0CDFFAB5-ON852578BC.00472D96-852578BC.004760A4@mail.megageek.com>

John,

I'm not an expert (or even close) nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last 
night, but did you load test the battery?  Maybe even a better place to 
start is to try jump starting the engine.

Just  a quick and easy test.

Where are you that is 97 degrees?  I could use a vacation!  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun 27 07:28:35 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:28:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <OF221ED402.0CDFFAB5-ON852578BC.00472D96-852578BC.004760A4@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF221ED402.0CDFFAB5-ON852578BC.00472D96-852578BC.004760A4@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <7918609177AB4D0C9929E5CC74891578@OwnerPC>

Hey Moose....   Alabama is the place of warmth ...  come on down.

a load test did determine that the battery was bad... when I put a load on 
it it dropped to 3 volts... enough to throw in the solenoid but not hold it 
new battery to be installed today...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???


> John,
>
> I'm not an expert (or even close) nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last
> night, but did you load test the battery?  Maybe even a better place to
> start is to try jump starting the engine.
>
> Just  a quick and easy test.
>
> Where are you that is 97 degrees?  I could use a vacation!  8>)
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1513/3728 - Release Date: 06/26/11

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun 27 08:16:05 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 10:16:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] generac generator won't start ???
In-Reply-To: <7918609177AB4D0C9929E5CC74891578@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <OF10DEC53C.EE6C6FDA-ON852578BC.004FAFE9-852578BC.004FD531@mail.megageek.com>

Sorry to jump in to the discussion so late.  After I sent that, I saw the 
others replies.

Since you seem to have it under control, I guess I don't need to come down 
to AL.  But I'll keep it in mind!  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 



Hey Moose....   Alabama is the place of warmth ...  come on down.

a load test did determine that the battery was bad... when I put a load on 

it it dropped to 3 volts... enough to throw in the solenoid but not hold 
it 
new battery to be installed today...

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 28 17:11:15 2011
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:11:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] suggestions on powerwasher repair
Message-ID: <SNT123-W18B9C56589D312A1B6649CE1560@phx.gbl>

I got our pressure washer out today in preperation of using it.  It has less
than 10 hours on it, but was not stored properly.The manifold is cracked but
does not have any holes in it.  I assume I did not get the water out of it and
it froze during the winter.  Does anyone have a suggestion on how my might fix
it?  A replacement part will cost about 80 dollors.
http://www.ppe-pressure-washer-parts.com/files/1961581/uploaded/16031-manifol
d%20kit%20install%20instructions.pdf

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 28 17:55:39 2011
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:55:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] suggestions on powerwasher repair
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W18B9C56589D312A1B6649CE1560@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W18B9C56589D312A1B6649CE1560@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W6560271DB8FA16C9CD7FD1E1560@phx.gbl>

Here is a shorter URL.http://tinyurl.com/4xrnlsq

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

 > From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:11:15 -0500
> Subject: [Shop-talk] suggestions on powerwasher repair
>
> I got our pressure washer out today in preperation of using it.  It has
less
> than 10 hours on it, but was not stored properly.The manifold is cracked
but
> does not have any holes in it.  I assume I did not get the water out of it
and
> it froze during the winter.  Does anyone have a suggestion on how my might
fix
> it?  A replacement part will cost about 80 dollors.
>
http://www.ppe-pressure-washer-parts.com/files/1961581/uploaded/16031-manifol
> d%20kit%20install%20instructions.pdf
>
> Rich White Central, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF###L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com

From jmitch at snet.net  Wed Jun 29 19:33:02 2011
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:33:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fiberglass front door
Message-ID: <4E0BD24E.2080207@snet.net>

    I have wood core, fiberglass covered front door, which I have used 
gel stain to give it a faux wood color and texture.  I've used every 
type of polyurethane, spar urethane, marine varnish, and nothing seems 
to hold up in the direct sun that hits it all day. It always seems to 
peel within 6 months or so.  I was thing of getting automotive 2 part 
urethane clear, or even mix up some clear epoxy resin to coat it.  
Anyone with any insight as to what would work in this situation?   
Thanks   John Mitchell     Shelton, CT

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun 29 20:05:08 2011
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:05:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fiberglass front door
In-Reply-To: <4E0BD24E.2080207@snet.net>
References: <4E0BD24E.2080207@snet.net>
Message-ID: <4E0BD9D4.5080809@hornesystemstx.com>

John,

Is just the top coat peeling off, or is the stain also lifting?

Are you using a dark stain and have a storm door on this door? I've seen 
cautions on doors and storm doors for this combination. Some storm doors 
will actually have the glass pane in them break from the heat when 
facing West here in Texas, I doubt that would happen in CT!

I've never tried using 2 part or epoxy in this way.

Please let us know what works for you.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake John Mitchell, On 6/29/2011 8:33 PM:
>    I have wood core, fiberglass covered front door, which I have used 
> gel stain to give it a faux wood color and texture.  I've used every 
> type of polyurethane, spar urethane, marine varnish, and nothing seems 
> to hold up in the direct sun that hits it all day. It always seems to 
> peel within 6 months or so.  I was thing of getting automotive 2 part 
> urethane clear, or even mix up some clear epoxy resin to coat it.  
> Anyone with any insight as to what would work in this situation?   
> Thanks   John Mitchell     Shelton, CT
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jmitch at snet.net  Wed Jun 29 20:07:11 2011
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:07:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fiberglass front door
In-Reply-To: <c4mn079lvqn4r4s4h2ft9l8ditmggh83iu@4ax.com>
References: <4E0BD24E.2080207@snet.net>
	<c4mn079lvqn4r4s4h2ft9l8ditmggh83iu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4E0BDA4F.6080301@snet.net>

It was a Minwax gel stain and I've used all there poly products to no 
avail.  John

On 6/29/2011 10:01 PM, Roland Wilhelmy wrote:
> Could you ask the makers of the gel stain what they would recommend as
> a top (clear) coat?  They ought to know.
>
> -Roland
>
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:33:02 -0400, you wrote:
>
> ::    I have wood core, fiberglass covered front door, which I have used
> ::gel stain to give it a faux wood color and texture.  I've used every
> ::type of polyurethane, spar urethane, marine varnish, and nothing seems
> ::to hold up in the direct sun that hits it all day. It always seems to
> ::peel within 6 months or so.  I was thing of getting automotive 2 part
> ::urethane clear, or even mix up some clear epoxy resin to coat it.
> ::Anyone with any insight as to what would work in this situation?
> ::Thanks   John Mitchell     Shelton, CT

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Wed Jun 29 20:35:36 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:35:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fiberglass front door
In-Reply-To: <4E0BD9D4.5080809@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4E0BD24E.2080207@snet.net> <4E0BD9D4.5080809@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4E0BE0F8.4050801@frontier.com>

My front door (which for the record is steel) is painted white and faces 
east...and I have still blown up two tempered glass storm door windows. 
  And I live in Washington State.  A piece of polycarb fixed that problem.

Pat Horne wrote:
> Some storm doors will actually have the glass pane in them break from
> the heat when facing West here in Texas, I doubt that would happen in CT!

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Wed Jun 29 20:35:52 2011
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:35:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fiberglass front door
References: <4E0BD24E.2080207@snet.net>
Message-ID: <C29F4F5F238247D38D4FE8CC7484A8B7@Dell9200>

John,

I tried epoxy resin on exterior wood once and found that the sun caused it 
to deteriorate quickly.  The same epoxy resin (West System) with a few coats 
of varnish lasted for several years of direct exposure to sun and the 
elements.  However, it needed refinished in about the 4th year which was a 
really big PIA to get the stuff that didn't peel off.  I have returned to 
conventional high quality spar varnish with a UV shield, Epfanes is the 
brand I have settled on after trying 4 or 5 others.  I don't know what it 
would do on fiberglass and stain.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Mitchell" To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:33 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fiberglass front door


    I have wood core, fiberglass covered front door, which I have used
gel stain to give it a faux wood color and texture.  I've used every
type of polyurethane, spar urethane, marine varnish, and nothing seems
to hold up in the direct sun that hits it all day. It always seems to
peel within 6 months or so.  I was thing of getting automotive 2 part
urethane clear, or even mix up some clear epoxy resin to coat it.
Anyone with any insight as to what would work in this situation?
Thanks   John Mitchell     Shelton, CT

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jun 29 22:42:40 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 00:42:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros
Message-ID: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys,
I think I got my bud & cousin Pete "Bob" to sign up on here.  PING! 
Paging Pete.  He's a BSME quality control engineer who recently built 
his own 3 car garage and is putting up a big -*** garage with attached 
house and has a diverse taste in vehicles, including early 70s 
Oldsmobile muscle cars, 90s Nissans and a Kaw' sport bike.  Probably a 
few miles down the road from Eric in near Mebane NC.

Yo Dude???  you sign up

w

From jmitch at snet.net  Thu Jun 30 04:20:37 2011
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 06:20:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fiberglass front door
In-Reply-To: <4E0BD9D4.5080809@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4E0BD24E.2080207@snet.net> <4E0BD9D4.5080809@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4E0C4DF5.3060407@snet.net>

It's the clear coat that just sort of disappears in tiny little flakes.  
I know I've prepared the service correctly by lightly sanding with 320 
paper. I've also tried using that liquid that's supposed to take the 
place of sanding, by softening the undercoat.  No storm door.    John

On 6/29/2011 10:05 PM, Pat Horne wrote:
> John,
>
> Is just the top coat peeling off, or is the stain also lifting?
>
> Are you using a dark stain and have a storm door on this door? I've 
> seen cautions on doors and storm doors for this combination. Some 
> storm doors will actually have the glass pane in them break from the 
> heat when facing West here in Texas, I doubt that would happen in CT!
>
> I've never tried using 2 part or epoxy in this way.
>
> Please let us know what works for you.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Thusly spake John Mitchell, On 6/29/2011 8:33 PM:
>>    I have wood core, fiberglass covered front door, which I have used 
>> gel stain to give it a faux wood color and texture.  I've used every 
>> type of polyurethane, spar urethane, marine varnish, and nothing 
>> seems to hold up in the direct sun that hits it all day. It always 
>> seems to peel within 6 months or so.  I was thing of getting 
>> automotive 2 part urethane clear, or even mix up some clear epoxy 
>> resin to coat it.  Anyone with any insight as to what would work in 
>> this situation?   Thanks   John Mitchell     Shelton, CT
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jun 30 05:20:47 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 07:20:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros
In-Reply-To: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com>
References: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <1AFC6834-A1C5-41AF-91B2-B2426F0B7668@groupwbench.org>

There's a house for sale here (MA) with a tall 3 car garage. I slow down and
stare when I drive by like the slab was covered with bikini clad aerobics
instructors.

Only $505,000!

jim

On Jun 30, 2011, at 12:42 AM, Wayne wrote:

> Hey Guys,
> I think I got my bud & cousin Pete "Bob" to sign up on here.  PING! Paging
Pete.  He's a BSME quality control engineer who recently built his own 3 car
garage and is putting up a big -*** garage with attached house and has a
diverse taste in vehicles, including early 70s Oldsmobile muscle cars, 90s
Nissans and a Kaw' sport bike.  Probably a few miles down the road from Eric
in near Mebane NC.
>
> Yo Dude???  you sign up
>
> w
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Jun 30 05:56:57 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 07:56:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros
In-Reply-To: <1AFC6834-A1C5-41AF-91B2-B2426F0B7668@groupwbench.org>
References: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com>
	<1AFC6834-A1C5-41AF-91B2-B2426F0B7668@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4E0C6489.6030803@xxiii.com>

On 6/30/2011 7:20 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> There's a house for sale here (MA) with a tall 3 car garage. I slow down and
> stare when I drive by like the slab was covered with bikini clad aerobics
> instructors.   > Only $505,000!

Yikes!  Asheville NC (me) is moderately pricey, but not like CA or the 
New England / DC area.  OTOH, I have a bud' in southwestern Ohio that 
purchased a "nice 3 car garage with attached house" for like < $80k on a 
foreclosure deal.

-Wayne

From shop at shariconglobal.com  Thu Jun 30 08:55:54 2011
From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:55:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros
In-Reply-To: <4E0C6489.6030803@xxiii.com>
References: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com><1AFC6834-A1C5-41AF-91B2-B2426F0B7668@groupwbench.org>
	<4E0C6489.6030803@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <C16F28794C304EDB8D3ADA79C159FBF1@Tablet>

Heh.  I'm about to put an offer on a house here in Philly that has what
looks to be a ~16 car garage (it's at least 50' deep and easily 30' wide).
It also has no posts or columns anywhere in the middle, thanks to the roof
being supported by a couple 16" I-beams.  :-)

Of course, the fact that the house needs a fair amount of work (built in
1825) and the roof on the garage has collapsed might explain why they're
only asking 250k for it.  But still a good deal as far as I'm concerned.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:57 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Intros
> 
> On 6/30/2011 7:20 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> > There's a house for sale here (MA) with a tall 3 car garage. I slow 
> > down and stare when I drive by like the slab was covered 
> with bikini clad aerobics
> > instructors.   > Only $505,000!
> 
> Yikes!  Asheville NC (me) is moderately pricey, but not like 
> CA or the New England / DC area.  OTOH, I have a bud' in 
> southwestern Ohio that purchased a "nice 3 car garage with 
> attached house" for like < $80k on a foreclosure deal.
> 
> -Wayne
> ___________

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jun 30 09:48:08 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:48:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros
In-Reply-To: <C16F28794C304EDB8D3ADA79C159FBF1@Tablet>
Message-ID: <OFAAE96D62.52A7FD12-ON852578BF.00583D60-852578BF.00584A33@mail.megageek.com>

I'm only about 50 mins from Philly.  Let me know when the "Garage warming 
party" will be!!!  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




"Aric" <shop at shariconglobal.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/30/2011 11:25

To
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Intros






Heh.  I'm about to put an offer on a house here in Philly that has what
looks to be a ~16 car garage (it's at least 50' deep and easily 30' wide).
It also has no posts or columns anywhere in the middle, thanks to the roof
being supported by a couple 16" I-beams.  :-)

Of course, the fact that the house needs a fair amount of work (built in
1825) and the roof on the garage has collapsed might explain why they're
only asking 250k for it.  But still a good deal as far as I'm concerned.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:57 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Intros
> 
> On 6/30/2011 7:20 AM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> > There's a house for sale here (MA) with a tall 3 car garage. I slow 
> > down and stare when I drive by like the slab was covered 
> with bikini clad aerobics
> > instructors.   > Only $505,000!
> 
> Yikes!  Asheville NC (me) is moderately pricey, but not like 
> CA or the New England / DC area.  OTOH, I have a bud' in 
> southwestern Ohio that purchased a "nice 3 car garage with 
> attached house" for like < $80k on a foreclosure deal.
> 
> -Wayne
> ___________
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From marka at maracing.com  Thu Jun 30 16:42:01 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:42:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106301836190.27285@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I'm putting a laundry tub in my garage.  In addition to the regular 
faucet, I'd like to have a separate hose bib so that I can run a short 
section of garden hose w/a nozzle for spraying off stuff, filling up 
buckets on the floor, etc.  I want it to be able to be hot/cold/whatever.

Initially I was thinking I'd replace the 'head' of the faucet with an 
adapter to a T, then back to the faucet, with a hose bib off the side of 
the T.

Looking around at Lowes, it looks like that may be hard to do.  So instead 
I'm wondering if I can just Y off the incoming hot/cold water connections 
and run one set to the faucet and the other set to a pair of 'gate valves' 
(the configuration that looked most useful was called a "garden valve" at 
Lowes), then to a Y, then to a hose bib.

And finally my question... Is a mixing valve like on a regular faucet just 
two valves plumbed to a T or is there more to it than that?  I wasn't sure 
if there was some type of one way valve incorporated as well, so that a 
fully open hot water valve couldn't 'push' hot water into a partially 
opened cold water valve.

Appreciate any pointers!

Mark

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 30 16:44:05 2011
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:44:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor auto shut-off not working
Message-ID: <SNT127-W5844CE9C654BAA3A2AB6339A580@phx.gbl>

The list has quite a bit of compressor knowledge, so here goes:
Had a Ridgid twin tank style compressor for a few years now, awhile back the
auto shut-off stopped working.   I'd have to let it run to its 150 psi max,
then stop it or else it'd blow the pop off valve. After that point, I never
trusted the pop off valve to always be there for me, so I just manually turned
it on and off.
Finally decided to replace the shut off valve since that seemed the most
likely culprit.  Tested it out a few times and it properly shut off the power
right over 150.  Tried it last night, 3 times in a row it decides not to and
instead the pop off valve opens...  So... other than the shut off
valve/control unit/power switch piece I just dropped $30 on, I'm thinking what
else might be at work here?  There is an adjustment on them, but I've read you
should not play with them... and I kinda agree.  Any other ideas?
PJ

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Jun 30 17:38:14 2011
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:38:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106301836190.27285@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106301836190.27285@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <000801cc377e$c8fea3c0$5afbeb40$@ameritech.net>

What about a laundry tub faucet, which has hose threads right on the end of
the spout?

Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Andy
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves

I'm putting a laundry tub in my garage.  In addition to the regular faucet,
I'd like to have a separate hose bib so that I can run a short section of
garden hose w/a nozzle for spraying off stuff, filling up buckets on the
floor, etc.  I want it to be able to be hot/cold/whatever.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Jun 30 18:42:26 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:42:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106301836190.27285@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <C33F5E78344145DEB98F06F930CA92FB@john5043a2d406>

Mark,

I have a mop sink in my garage.... the faucet set I use has a threaded 
aerator... you can a backflow preventor that will fit these threads that 
will convert to a hose bib... then use the regular faucet controls for your 
'mixing' and hook your hose directly to the faucet...
john

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 5:42 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves


> Howdy,
>
> I'm putting a laundry tub in my garage.  In addition to the regular 
> faucet, I'd like to have a separate hose bib so that I can run a short 
> section of garden hose w/a nozzle for spraying off stuff, filling up 
> buckets on the floor, etc.  I want it to be able to be hot/cold/whatever.
>
> Initially I was thinking I'd replace the 'head' of the faucet with an 
> adapter to a T, then back to the faucet, with a hose bib off the side of 
> the T.
>
> Looking around at Lowes, it looks like that may be hard to do.  So instead 
> I'm wondering if I can just Y off the incoming hot/cold water connections 
> and run one set to the faucet and the other set to a pair of 'gate valves' 
> (the configuration that looked most useful was called a "garden valve" at 
> Lowes), then to a Y, then to a hose bib.
>
> And finally my question... Is a mixing valve like on a regular faucet just 
> two valves plumbed to a T or is there more to it than that?  I wasn't sure 
> if there was some type of one way valve incorporated as well, so that a 
> fully open hot water valve couldn't 'push' hot water into a partially 
> opened cold water valve.
>
> Appreciate any pointers!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3735 - Release Date: 06/30/11

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jun 30 19:10:38 2011
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:10:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106301836190.27285@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1106301836190.27285@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4E0D1E8E.7080204@hornesystemstx.com>

A mixing valve should work for you if you don't need mass quantities of 
water. They are usually plumbed with 1/2" line. which is fine for sever 
gallons a minute, but not much more.

If you decide to go with a DIY of 2 valves I would recommend ball valves 
instead of gate valves. They shut off better and can pass more water 
than the run of the mill (Lowes) gate valves. They are probably cheaper 
also.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Mark Andy, On 6/30/2011 5:42 PM:
> Howdy,
>
> I'm putting a laundry tub in my garage.  In addition to the regular 
> faucet, I'd like to have a separate hose bib so that I can run a short 
> section of garden hose w/a nozzle for spraying off stuff, filling up 
> buckets on the floor, etc.  I want it to be able to be hot/cold/whatever.
>
> Initially I was thinking I'd replace the 'head' of the faucet with an 
> adapter to a T, then back to the faucet, with a hose bib off the side 
> of the T.
>
> Looking around at Lowes, it looks like that may be hard to do.  So 
> instead I'm wondering if I can just Y off the incoming hot/cold water 
> connections and run one set to the faucet and the other set to a pair 
> of 'gate valves' (the configuration that looked most useful was called 
> a "garden valve" at Lowes), then to a Y, then to a hose bib.
>
> And finally my question... Is a mixing valve like on a regular faucet 
> just two valves plumbed to a T or is there more to it than that?  I 
> wasn't sure if there was some type of one way valve incorporated as 
> well, so that a fully open hot water valve couldn't 'push' hot water 
> into a partially opened cold water valve.
>
> Appreciate any pointers!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
>
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-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Jun 30 20:59:28 2011
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:59:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros
In-Reply-To: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com>
References: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <D655C966FB9C427D8CF4452EDCAA576E@EricJRussellPC>

I am indeed in Mebane, NC. If Pete (or anyone else) would like to visit 
consider yourselves invited.
Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 12:42 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros


> Hey Guys,
> I think I got my bud & cousin Pete "Bob" to sign up on here.  PING! Paging 
> Pete.  He's a BSME quality control engineer who recently built his own 3 
> car garage and is putting up a big -*** garage with attached house and has 
> a diverse taste in vehicles, including early 70s Oldsmobile muscle cars, 
> 90s Nissans and a Kaw' sport bike.  Probably a few miles down the road 
> from Eric in near Mebane NC.