From marka at maracing.com Fri Jul 1 07:45:52 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 09:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves In-Reply-To: <4E0D1E8E.7080204@hornesystemstx.com> References: <4E0D1E8E.7080204@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, Pat Horne wrote: > A mixing valve should work for you if you don't need mass quantities of > water. They are usually plumbed with 1/2" line. which is fine for sever > gallons a minute, but not much more. > > If you decide to go with a DIY of 2 valves I would recommend ball valves > instead of gate valves. They shut off better and can pass more water than the > run of the mill (Lowes) gate valves. They are probably cheaper also. I've been having trouble finding a mixing valve (other than a regular faucet)... Got a link? 1/4 turn ball valves would be fine, but I was worried that I'd be using them partially open a lot. The other question with the two valve approach is that I'm not sure what happens if I have both valves partially open and the hose handle off so that there's no flow out the end. Will I get hot/cold water mixing in the lines? And is that a problem? Mark From eric at megageek.com Fri Jul 1 07:41:01 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 09:41:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, the faucet that came with my wash tub allows me to directly attach a hose to the end. So it's a normal faucet, or I can put a hose on the end and do whatever I need with the hose like a normal hose outlet. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Howdy, I'm putting a laundry tub in my garage. In addition to the regular faucet, I'd like to have a separate hose bib so that I can run a short section of garden hose w/a nozzle for spraying off stuff, filling up buckets on the floor, etc. I want it to be able to be hot/cold/whatever. Initially I was thinking I'd replace the 'head' of the faucet with an adapter to a T, then back to the faucet, with a hose bib off the side of the T. Looking around at Lowes, it looks like that may be hard to do. So instead I'm wondering if I can just Y off the incoming hot/cold water connections and run one set to the faucet and the other set to a pair of 'gate valves' (the configuration that looked most useful was called a "garden valve" at Lowes), then to a Y, then to a hose bib. And finally my question... Is a mixing valve like on a regular faucet just two valves plumbed to a T or is there more to it than that? I wasn't sure if there was some type of one way valve incorporated as well, so that a fully open hot water valve couldn't 'push' hot water into a partially opened cold water valve. Appreciate any pointers! Mark From marka at maracing.com Fri Jul 1 08:55:20 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Mark, the faucet that came with my wash tub allows me to directly attach a > hose to the end. So it's a normal faucet, or I can put a hose on the end > and do whatever I need with the hose like a normal hose outlet. Right. But I want to have the hose line ready to go, as well as a regular faucet. Perhaps the easy way to do this is to have two faucets on the back of the laundry tub. Mark From strovato at optonline.net Fri Jul 1 09:06:35 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 11:06:35 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] brake problems on a goose neck trailer In-Reply-To: <1309526318.46494.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <607088.23513.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0LN5009NRHC91P50@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1309526318.46494.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0LNN004HQTZPTX10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Frank, Great! Thanks for the follow-up. I hate it when we have a lengthy discussion about something, and I never find out what happened. I hope you don't mind, I've cc-ed the list so everyone can know the outcome. Glad your problem is solved. I would keep a close eye on the other side as well. If those parts are just as old, they may start showing the same problem at some point. -Steve At 09:18 AM 7/1/2011, Frank Vantacich wrote: >Steve, it looks like I have resolved my problem. I ended up >replacing both backing plates on the passenger side wheels. I think >the problem was with the magnets hanging up. > >Thanks for the help! > > >Frank V. >rustymetal at sbcglobal.net > > > >From: Steven Trovato >To: Frank Vantacich ; Shop Talk > >Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 10:17:00 AM >Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] brake problems on a goose neck trailer > >Frank, > >I am having a hard time coming up with a likely electrical fault that >explains all this. I think a more likely explanation is that when >applied, the brakes are not releasing, or releasing very >slowly. Perhaps the return springs are weak. You should be able to >jack up the trailer and spin the wheels by hand to experiment. My >guess is that the wheels will spin free with the electric connected, >but continue to drag after brake application. > >-Steve Trovato >strovato at optonline.net > > >At 08:40 AM 6/21/2011, Frank Vantacich wrote: > >I have a dual axle 25' goose neck trailer with electric brakes. > The two brake > >drums on the passenger side get extremely hot after a six mile trip with no > >load. The two drums on the other side are perfectly cool. The > trailer has less > >than 10K miles on it and is 7 years old. I have stripped down both backing > >plates and cleaned everything up and adjusted the brakes more than > once, both > >drums have new bearing. The drums get extremely hot only when the trailer is > >connected electrically, if I don't connect it the outside hubs get just a > >little > >warm. Do I have a short for those to wheels? > > > >Thanks for the help. > > > >Frank V. > >rustymetal at sbcglobal.net From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jul 1 09:09:04 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 08:09:04 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves In-Reply-To: References: <4E0D1E8E.7080204@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <003a01cc3800$d11d1000$0301a8c0@randall> > I've been having trouble finding a mixing valve (other than a regular > faucet)... Got a link? I'm not sure exactly which kind Pat had in mind, but it shouldn't be hard to find almost any kind of mixing valve you want: http://tinyurl.com/3tx4b9p But a thermostatic mixing valve seems like serious over-kill to me, for a simple hose connection. I'd go for something more like this: http://www.visplumbing.com/Catalog_i12758592.html?catId=376941 And as others have observed, you could just use that style for the tub and connect a hose when needed, if you want. > is that I'm not sure what happens if I have both valves > partially open and > the hose handle off so that there's no flow out the end. Will I get > hot/cold water mixing in the lines? And is that a problem? It's possible you could get some mixing if, for example, someone else was using all of the hot water pressure. But most likely it would be very little and probably only cold water into the hot side. Doesn't seem like a big problem to me. Ball valves also aren't going to give you fine control of the outlet temperature & volume, IMO. I'd stick with one of the "faucet" designs, either the classic globe valve or one of the newer "washerless" designs. Gate valves have a tendency to weep a bit when shut off. -- Randall From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Jul 1 13:12:49 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 12:12:49 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0E1C31.9080507@frontier.com> OK, now things are starting to make sense (to me, anyway). Yeah, it sounds like your easiest route might be just to plumb up two faucets somehow. Mark Andy wrote: > Right. But I want to have the hose line ready to go, as well as a > regular faucet. > > Perhaps the easy way to do this is to have two faucets on the back of > the laundry tub. > > Mark From rbeels at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 13:25:39 2011 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 15:25:39 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Intros In-Reply-To: References: <4E0BFEC0.6070009@xxiii.com> <1AFC6834-A1C5-41AF-91B2-B2426F0B7668@groupwbench.org> <4E0C6489.6030803@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20110701152129.07251a20@yahoo.com> I'm going to be in Philly working for the rest of the summer. When's the party? My garage is 65x35 but it's not all "parking". It holds three cars easily. Might be fun, in a clown in the circus kind of way, to see how many cars I could fit in it. I have one post but it's right next to the lift so it doesn't really count... :-) At 06/30/11 at 10:55, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Aric's keyboard and said: >Heh. I'm about to put an offer on a house here in Philly that has what >looks to be a ~16 car garage (it's at least 50' deep and easily 30' wide). >It also has no posts or columns anywhere in the middle, thanks to the roof >being supported by a couple 16" I-beams. :-) > >Of course, the fact that the house needs a fair amount of work (built in >1825) and the roof on the garage has collapsed might explain why they're >only asking 250k for it. But still a good deal as far as I'm concerned. Cheers! From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Fri Jul 1 15:38:26 2011 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:38:26 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves In-Reply-To: <4E0E1C31.9080507@frontier.com> References: <4E0E1C31.9080507@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4E0E3E52.6050505@talktalk.net> Just use a bath mixer that combines a shower outlet - the bath outlet does the wash tub - the shower outlet feeds the hose. Or am I missing something? Neil On 01/07/2011 20:12, David C. wrote: > OK, now things are starting to make sense (to me, anyway). Yeah, it > sounds like your easiest route might be just to plumb up two faucets > somehow. > > > > Mark Andy wrote: >> Right. But I want to have the hose line ready to go, as well as a >> regular faucet. >> >> Perhaps the easy way to do this is to have two faucets on the back of >> the laundry tub. >> >> Mark > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From pat at hornesystemstx.com Fri Jul 1 20:03:11 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:03:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] faucets, mixing valves, and regular valves In-Reply-To: <003a01cc3800$d11d1000$0301a8c0@randall> References: <4E0D1E8E.7080204@hornesystemstx.com> <003a01cc3800$d11d1000$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4E0E7C5F.9070604@hornesystemstx.com> Any of the mixing valves Randal linked to should do the trick. I was thinking about a shower/tub mixing valve, which would probably be more expensive and not look at all industrial! BTW, I've seen folks have shower mixing valves with hose bibs in their garage for washing their dog, so it might be used as a "benefit" for the S.O. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Randall, On 7/1/2011 10:09 AM: >> I've been having trouble finding a mixing valve (other than a regular >> faucet)... Got a link? > I'm not sure exactly which kind Pat had in mind, but it shouldn't be hard to > find almost any kind of mixing valve you want: > http://tinyurl.com/3tx4b9p > > But a thermostatic mixing valve seems like serious over-kill to me, for a > simple hose connection. I'd go for something more like this: > http://www.visplumbing.com/Catalog_i12758592.html?catId=376941 > > And as others have observed, you could just use that style for the tub and > connect a hose when needed, if you want. > >> is that I'm not sure what happens if I have both valves >> partially open and >> the hose handle off so that there's no flow out the end. Will I get >> hot/cold water mixing in the lines? And is that a problem? > It's possible you could get some mixing if, for example, someone else was > using all of the hot water pressure. But most likely it would be very > little and probably only cold water into the hot side. Doesn't seem like a > big problem to me. > > Ball valves also aren't going to give you fine control of the outlet > temperature& volume, IMO. I'd stick with one of the "faucet" designs, > either the classic globe valve or one of the newer "washerless" designs. > Gate valves have a tendency to weep a bit when shut off. > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From bob at texmog.com Fri Jul 1 21:56:02 2011 From: bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 22:56:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage Message-ID: Ibve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball game while working. Problem I am having is the garage is right on the fringe of our wifi network. What I have noticed is that the strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps without moving the computer or anything changing. When it falls to the low side I loose the broadcast. Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep it from dropping out right in the middle of a great play? Why does the signal strength change when noting else has changed? Thanks for any suggestions Bob From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sat Jul 2 05:45:15 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 06:45:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> Bob, You can try relocating your wireless router, even a small move can have a large effect. Other than that, you may have to add either a wireless repeater (available from most computer outlets), or add a wireless access point and a directional antenna. I installed an access point and directional antenna to get from the house to a brick house about 1/2 mile away. The laptop in the brick house gets strong signals all the time, even through the sparse trees and the bricks. If you need more help please let me know. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Bob Nogueira, On 7/1/2011 10:56 PM: > Ibve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball > game while working. Problem I am having is the garage is right on the fringe > of our wifi network. > What I have noticed is that the strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps > without moving the computer or anything changing. When it falls to the low > side I loose the broadcast. > Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep > it from dropping out right in the middle of a great play? Why does the > signal strength change when noting else has changed? > > Thanks for any suggestions > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From mbarre at juno.com Sat Jul 2 05:51:16 2011 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 11:51:16 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage Message-ID: <20110702.075116.27144.0@webmail09.vgs.untd.com> Google "cantenna". Maybe you can simply improve reception reliability. D-Link also has an add on antenna that supposedly improves the broadcast efficiency of the router. Matt ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Bob Nogueira" To: "Shop Talk" Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 22:56:02 -0500 Ibve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball game while working. Problem I am having is the garage is right on the fringe of our wifi network. What I have noticed is that the strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps without moving the computer or anything changing. When it falls to the low side I loose the broadcast. Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep it from dropping out right in the middle of a great play? Why does the signal strength change when noting else has changed? Thanks for any suggestions Bob _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Jul 2 05:58:55 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:58:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110702075653.04e9d5a8@cox.net> At 11:56 PM 7/1/2011, Bob Nogueira wrote: >I've been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball game while working. Problem >I am having is the garage is right on the fringe of our wifi network. What I have noticed is that the >strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps without moving the computer or anything changing. When it >falls to the low side I loose the broadcast. >Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep it from dropping out right in >the middle of a great play? Why does the signal strength change when noting else has changed? Bob, The 1st question that comes to mind is where is your wifi router in relation to your garage? If it's at the far end of the house, can you move it to the room closest to the garage? I'd try that for a quick and dirty fix. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 09:03:47 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 10:03:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Bob Nogueira wrote: > Ib ve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball > game while working. B Problem I am having is the garage is right on the fringe > of our wifi B network. > What I have noticed is that the B strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps > without moving the computer or anything changing. B When it falls to the low > side I loose the broadcast. > Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep > it from dropping out B right in the middle of a great play? B Why does the > signal strength change when noting else has changed? > > Thanks for any suggestions > 11 mpbs suggests your using 802.11b. Upgrading to G or N will get you better speed and probably better range (particularly dual-band 802.11n, which has two sets of radio frequencies it can use). Next thing I'd look at is getting a directional antenna for your wireless AP, and pointing it at the garage. The varriance in signal strengh is likely interference. the 2.4 Ghz range used by 802.11b/g is crowded with stuff, from microwave ovens, cordless phones, remote control toys, garage door openers, and of course, your neighbor's wifi. > Bob > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 09:12:34 2011 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 11:12:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Had a similar issue with a wifi IPcam mounted on the outside of my garage. 1Mbps and 11Mbps are the two lowest connection rates supported by the wifi protocol, so it sounds like you are just cycling between the two as the router tries to establish a decent connection. Two things probably helped me:Raise the wifi router higher. Having it higher helps spread the signal a bit better, even just a few feet, depending on what obstructions or things are in the way. Easy to try. Obviously a different spot in the house might work depending on how much of the house the signal has to move through to reach the garage, but that can involve running new cables to reach it, more work, etc. Research a larger (longer, higher dbi) omnidirectional antenna for your router. If you have a Verizon FIOS router like me, and you're a computer geek, you might already have one laying around. If not, a place like this will help you figure out what connector or adapter you need: http://www.data-alliance.net. A cantenna is good for point to point connections over long distances but you still need an omnidirectional to spread the signal to the rest of your house. If you want to try you could put one of these on your router antenna. I have one on my ip camera pointing back to my home router, and it does helphttp://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/just use some aluminum or metal sheet like you'd use for flashing on your house, cut it with tin snips, put it together, done. Other alternatives are being a high powered external wifi adapter like these.. I've got a few myself for wifi security work and messing around, highly recommended.http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-158/Alfa-AWUS036NH-2000mW-100 0mW/Detail.bok -PJ > From: bob at texmog.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 22:56:02 -0500 > Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > Ibve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball > game while working. Problem I am having is the garage is right on the fringe > of our wifi network. > What I have noticed is that the strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps > without moving the computer or anything changing. When it falls to the low > side I loose the broadcast. > Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep > it from dropping out right in the middle of a great play? Why does the > signal strength change when noting else has changed? > > Thanks for any suggestions > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com From rkg at teleport.com Sat Jul 2 10:14:28 2011 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:14:28 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> References: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> Hi, +1 on the wap/antenna - I built some of these and they helped a lot: http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/ Best, rkg (Richard George) On 7/2/2011 4:45 AM, Pat Horne wrote: > Bob, > > You can try relocating your wireless router, even a small move can > have a large effect. > > Other than that, you may have to add either a wireless repeater > (available from most computer outlets), or add a wireless access point > and a directional antenna. > > I installed an access point and directional antenna to get from the > house to a brick house about 1/2 mile away. The laptop in the brick > house gets strong signals all the time, even through the sparse trees > and the bricks. > > If you need more help please let me know. > > Peace, > Pat > > Thusly spake Bob Nogueira, On 7/1/2011 10:56 PM: >> Ibve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to >> the ball >> game while working. Problem I am having is the garage is right on >> the fringe >> of our wifi network. >> What I have noticed is that the strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 >> mbps >> without moving the computer or anything changing. When it falls to >> the low >> side I loose the broadcast. >> Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I >> need to keep >> it from dropping out right in the middle of a great play? Why does >> the >> signal strength change when noting else has changed? >> >> Thanks for any suggestions >> >> Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Sat Jul 2 11:44:37 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 13:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Bob Nogueira wrote: > Ibve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball > game while working. Problem I am having is the garage is right on the fringe > of our wifi network. > What I have noticed is that the strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps > without moving the computer or anything changing. When it falls to the low > side I loose the broadcast. > Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep > it from dropping out right in the middle of a great play? Why does the > signal strength change when noting else has changed? That severe a drop suggests interference, to me. Do you happen to have a cordless telephone? If it's a 900 Mhz model, I wouldn't be surprised to find that your signal drop corresponds to phone usage. When we used to have a 900 Mhz phone, it was mutually exclusive with wifi... you could use either, but not both. Depending on your property, it might even be your neighbor's phone. If not, I third the recommendation on upgrading to g or n. I have been nothing but pleased since I did. -- David Hillman PS Or, buy one of these things called an "AM Radio". Never seen one in person, but I'm told they can pick up ball games on 'em ;) From jibjib at att.net Sat Jul 2 14:37:19 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 13:37:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57784AB120E24CBA922210498D6B8B91@EntCent> Slightly off topic - Hard wired: There is one other route. I got tired of wireless issues and hard wired the five upstairs rooms and two downstairs room in our house with Gigabit speed connections. I've never been happier with the speed and stability of the connections in the house. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Hillman Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 10:45 AM To: Bob Nogueira Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Bob Nogueira wrote: > Ibve been trying to use my laptop in the garage so I can listen to the ball > game while working. Problem I am having is the garage is right on the fringe > of our wifi network. > What I have noticed is that the strength will vary from 1 mbps to 11 mbps > without moving the computer or anything changing. When it falls to the low > side I loose the broadcast. > Any simple tricks to increase the signal strength that tiny bit I need to keep > it from dropping out right in the middle of a great play? Why does the > signal strength change when noting else has changed? That severe a drop suggests interference, to me. Do you happen to have a cordless telephone? If it's a 900 Mhz model, I wouldn't be surprised to find that your signal drop corresponds to phone usage. When we used to have a 900 Mhz phone, it was mutually exclusive with wifi... you could use either, but not both. Depending on your property, it might even be your neighbor's phone. If not, I third the recommendation on upgrading to g or n. I have been nothing but pleased since I did. -- David Hillman PS Or, buy one of these things called an "AM Radio". Never seen one in person, but I'm told they can pick up ball games on 'em ;) _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Jul 5 14:17:55 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: Googling has failed, so I turn to the masters of finding all things mechanical. Does anyone make an extension cord with a mountable face? Like this, except 110v ( standard 3-prong, NEMA 5-15 ) instead of data ( although a 220v version might come in handy for another project, but I won't hold my breath for that ). http://www.masimo.com/sensors/cable-mountable.htm I could make something out of standard electrical supplies, but it would be big and bulky. Simple and small would be nice for this application. I also struck out at McMaster-Carr already. Thanks in advance. -- David Hillman From darrellw at ipns.com Tue Jul 5 14:50:29 2011 From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:50:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: <3EDA51CF-176C-4FAB-BD10-CB77CF1642DE@ipns.com> Hi David, Not quite sure what you want to do here. Would something like a power strip do what you want? As far as DIY, what about a surface mountable electrical box, wired to an extension cord and outlet? -Darrell From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Jul 5 15:13:06 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 17:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: <3EDA51CF-176C-4FAB-BD10-CB77CF1642DE@ipns.com> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> <3EDA51CF-176C-4FAB-BD10-CB77CF1642DE@ipns.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, Darrell Walker wrote: > Not quite sure what you want to do here. Would something like a power > strip do what you want? > > As far as DIY, what about a surface mountable electrical box, wired to > an extension cord and outlet? I want to have a standard outlet available inside a sliding drawer. I'd like to have it securely-mounted, so a standard power strip won't really work. Ones with mounting tabs are, as far as I can tell, exclusively four or more plugs, which is way more than I need, and takes up space. The DIY design is a fall-back, but like I said, going to be big and bulky compared to what I need... which is just a mounting face on the female end of a short extension cord. Thanks. -- David Hillman From arvidj at visi.com Tue Jul 5 15:21:50 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 16:21:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: <3EDA51CF-176C-4FAB-BD10-CB77CF1642DE@ipns.com> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> <3EDA51CF-176C-4FAB-BD10-CB77CF1642DE@ipns.com> Message-ID: If it would need to be recessed ... and again requiring that you build it yourself ... but at least it is recessed and has a mounting flange ... http://www.amazon.com/Arlington-DBVR1W-1-Recessed-Retrofit-Construction/dp/B002W6ZOOM/ref=sr_1_5?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1309900716&sr=1-5 -----Original Message----- From: Darrell Walker Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 3:50 PM To: David Hillman Cc: shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? Hi David, Not quite sure what you want to do here. Would something like a power strip do what you want? As far as DIY, what about a surface mountable electrical box, wired to an extension cord and outlet? -Darrell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From darrellw at ipns.com Tue Jul 5 15:24:10 2011 From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 14:24:10 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> <3EDA51CF-176C-4FAB-BD10-CB77CF1642DE@ipns.com> Message-ID: <233B3750-2C9E-4568-BC86-CC924E8095D9@ipns.com> On Jul 5, 2011, at 2:13 PM, David Hillman wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, Darrell Walker wrote: >> Not quite sure what you want to do here. Would something like a power strip do what you want? >> >> As far as DIY, what about a surface mountable electrical box, wired to an extension cord and outlet? > > I want to have a standard outlet available inside a sliding drawer. I'd like to have it securely-mounted, so a standard power strip won't really work. Ones with mounting tabs are, as far as I can tell, exclusively four or more plugs, which is way more than I need, and takes up space. > > The DIY design is a fall-back, but like I said, going to be big and bulky compared to what I need... which is just a mounting face on the female end of a short extension cord. Do you want the outlet flush with the drawer, or would it mount all inside? The surface mount boxes are pretty thin (1-1.5"): http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-R04-42777-00W-Single-Gang-Surface-Wiring/dp/B00 0VTRMD8/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1309900790&sr=1-1 Another option could be an extension cord with the outlet face at right angles to the cord. -Darrell From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 17:22:58 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 18:22:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:17 PM, David Hillman wrote: > B Googling has failed, so I turn to the masters of finding all things > mechanical. > > B Does anyone make an extension cord with a mountable face? B Like this, > except 110v ( standard 3-prong, NEMA 5-15 ) instead of data ( although a > 220v version might come in handy for another project, but I won't hold my > breath for that ). > > http://www.masimo.com/sensors/cable-mountable.htm > > B I could make something out of standard electrical supplies, but it would > be big and bulky. B Simple and small would be nice for this application. > > B I also struck out at McMaster-Carr already. > > B Thanks in advance. > You won't find one like that computer cable. That's a violation of the NEC. Relocatable power taps (NEC-speak for 'power strip') are not approved for permanent mounting to structure, tables, etc. (and more importantly for people who make these things, the UL (who don't always care about code) won't approve such a device.) I know of ZERO code-approved ways to put a mobile outlet into a drawer, and I looked pretty hard a couple years ago. If it's a permanent cabinet, it's possible to do something like mount an outlet facing into the the side of the drawer, and provide a cutout in the drawer side that allows access at all drawer positions. (I'm not sure that's actually code, but I've seen it.) Or a fixed outlet at the front, pointing down. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jul 5 17:39:29 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 16:39:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> <3EDA51CF-176C-4FAB-BD10-CB77CF1642DE@ipns.com> Message-ID: <076501cc3b6c$c930ff40$5b92fdc0$@rr.com> > The DIY design is a fall-back, but like I said, going to be big and > bulky compared to what I need... No need for it to be big and bulky, if you don't want that. How about mounting this through the back panel of the drawer? http://www.arcade-electronics.com/detail.aspx?ID=20376 Sorry, I've never seen a cord as you describe. Closest I could come would be one of those PlugMold surface raceways with outlets that you could cut to length with a hacksaw. But they are kind of pricy (unless you find one used) and still a DIY solution. -- Randall From mbarre at juno.com Tue Jul 5 18:28:20 2011 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 00:28:20 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? Message-ID: <20110705.202820.23885.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> I walked through a new house recently and apparently one of the latest features some builders are adding include outlets in the drawers so you can leave your blow dryer plugged and simply toss it back in the drawer when done. IIRC the plug was in the back wall of the vanity and the drawer back simply had a notch cut out for the cord. You just need to make sure your hair dryer has a long enough cord with that arrangement. MB On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:17 PM, David Hillman wrote: > B Googling has failed, so I turn to the masters of finding all things > mechanical. From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Jul 5 20:16:02 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 22:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, David Scheidt wrote: > I know of ZERO code-approved ways to put a mobile outlet into a > drawer, and I looked pretty hard a couple years ago. There's some way to do it. Snap-On sells a box with this feature. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fIF5MA5jw They specifically mention that it's UL-approved. Now, maybe it requires a big chunk of the $13k cost of that box to do it, in which case that won't help me, but it is possible. For the record, charging cordless tools ISN'T what I'm trying to do... although now that I've seen that box, I'm thinking about it ;) -- David Hillman From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 06:08:55 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 07:08:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:16 PM, David Hillman wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, David Scheidt wrote: >> >> I know of ZERO code-approved ways to put a mobile outlet into a >> drawer, and I looked pretty hard a couple years ago. > > B There's some way to do it. B Snap-On sells a box with this feature. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fIF5MA5jw > > B They specifically mention that it's UL-approved. B Now, maybe it requires a > big chunk of the $13k cost of that box to do it, in which case that won't > help me, but it is possible. I'd like to know under what standard they have certification. Anyone got one to look at the label? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 06:28:16 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 08:28:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 8:22 AM, Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 10:16 PM, David Hillman > wrote: >> There's some way to do it. Snap-On sells a box with this feature. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fIF5MA5jw >> >> They specifically mention that it's UL-approved. Now, maybe it requires a >> big chunk of the $13k cost of that box to do it, in which case that won't >> help me, but it is possible. > > Interesting. Here's a link to the parts for something similar: > > http://cableorganizer.com/igus/echain-series-e08-chain.html And a manufacturer's link showing the whole line: http://www.igus.com/wpck/default.aspx?PageNr=3512&CL=us-en#Section_1 > Google "chain cable management" for more. Would be a good solution in > a custom-made drawer. > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Jul 6 07:22:31 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 09:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Mountable extension cord? In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2011, David Scheidt wrote: > I'd like to know under what standard they have certification. Anyone > got one to look at the label? Based on your research, what is the roadblock to UL-approval for a sliding power outlet? Doesn't seem like a big deal, to me. You know the range of movement, so as long as you provide that much slack or extension in the cabling, and protect it with a gusset wherever it passes through a 'wall', what's the problem? Seems much simpler than, say, a wheeled cart with fixed outlets, which are commonplace. -- David Hillman From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Jul 6 10:22:41 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 11:22:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> References: , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> Message-ID: I am dealing with the exact same issue as Bob. The signal to my garage, which is only a couple of hundred feet from the wireless router, comes and goes. Besides general surfing to find the answers to car-related questions, I frequently listen to Pandora in the garage (great internet radio station, if you have never tried it) and it will work fine for minutes to hours, then quit because the signal isnt strong enough. I am hoping something like Richard's Parabolic Reflector will help. Richard: I have two questions for you: first, do you put one of these on both the router and the receiver? And second, does the foil go on both cutouts or just the rectangular backing? I will report back on how everything worked. Jim > Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 09:14:28 -0700 > From: rkg at teleport.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > Hi, > > +1 on the wap/antenna - I built some of these and they helped a lot: > > http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/ > > Best, > > rkg > (Richard George) From rkg at teleport.com Wed Jul 6 10:36:06 2011 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:36:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4E148EF6.2080908@teleport.com> Jim, I have used these little antenna reflectors both ways, though currently they are only on the router end since the kid got a laptop with built-in wifi. The aluminum only goes on the reflector cutout (the rectangular backing). Best, rkg (Richard George) On 7/6/2011 9:22 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > > I am dealing with the exact same issue as Bob. The signal to my > garage, which is only a couple of hundred feet from the wireless > router, comes and goes. Besides general surfing to find the answers > to car-related questions, I frequently listen to Pandora in the garage > (great internet radio station, if you have never tried it) and it will > work fine for minutes to hours, then quit because the signal isnt > strong enough.I am hoping something like Richard's Parabolic Reflector > will help. > > Richard: I have two questions for you:first, do you put one of these > on both the router and the receiver? And second, does the foil go on > both cutouts or just the rectangular backing? > > I will report back on how everything worked. > > Jim > > > Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 09:14:28 -0700 > > From: rkg at teleport.com > > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > > > Hi, > > > > +1 on the wap/antenna - I built some of these and they helped a lot: > > > > http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/ > > > > Best, > > > > rkg > > (Richard George) From mikey at b2systems.com Wed Jul 6 10:52:04 2011 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:52:04 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> wire the garage and be done with it, so easy and so much faster than wi-fi mike On 07/06/2011 09:22 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > I am dealing with the exact same issue as Bob. The signal to my garage, which > is only a couple of hundred feet from the wireless router, comes and goes. > Besides general surfing to find the answers to car-related questions, I > frequently listen to Pandora in the garage (great internet radio station, if > you have never tried it) and it will work fine for minutes to hours, then quit > because the signal isnt strong enough. I am hoping something like Richard's > Parabolic Reflector will help. > > Richard: I have two questions for you: first, do you put one of these on both > the router and the receiver? And second, does the foil go on both cutouts or > just the rectangular backing? > > I will report back on how everything worked. > > Jim > > > >> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 09:14:28 -0700 >> From: rkg at teleport.com >> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage >> >> Hi, >> >> +1 on the wap/antenna - I built some of these and they helped a lot: >> >> http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/ >> >> Best, >> >> rkg >> (Richard George) From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Wed Jul 6 11:03:23 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 13:03:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110706170323.J60QD.4008.root@cdptpa-web14-z01> I think the idea is that you put the reflector on the antenna in the garage, to extend the range of its radio. If you put the reflector on the antenna of the router, you would affect reception elsewhere in the house. Also, the typical router with external antennas has 2 or 3 antennas and would be difficult to put reflectors on, and some routers have only internal antennas. An access point usually just has one antenna so you cna put the reflector on that. The original poster mentioned using a laptop which also would not work with a reflector, but you can buy a USB wireless adapter for as cheap as $10 and put a reflector on it. You would have to get a good one, there are lots of junk ones on the market too. A wireless access point would be a better bet but they are also much more expensive. You put the foil only on the rectangular part. The other part is just there to hold the curved piece in the right shape and position. > I am dealing with the exact same issue as Bob. The signal to my garage, which > is only a couple of hundred feet from the wireless router, comes and goes. > Besides general surfing to find the answers to car-related questions, I > frequently listen to Pandora in the garage (great internet radio station, if > you have never tried it) and it will work fine for minutes to hours, then quit > because the signal isnt strong enough. I am hoping something like Richard's > Parabolic Reflector will help. > > Richard: I have two questions for you: first, do you put one of these on both > the router and the receiver? And second, does the foil go on both cutouts or > just the rectangular backing? > > I will report back on how everything worked. > > Jim > > > > Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 09:14:28 -0700 > > From: rkg at teleport.com > > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > > > Hi, > > > > +1 on the wap/antenna - I built some of these and they helped a lot: > > > > http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/ > > > > Best, > > > > rkg > > (Richard George) > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Jul 6 11:30:38 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 12:30:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: <4E148EF6.2080908@teleport.com> References: , , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, , <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , <4E148EF6.2080908@teleport.com> Message-ID: Thanks Richard. My garage computer is my daughter's old college laptop (maybe 6 years old) with built in wi-fi too, but I recently bought an external receiver hopping it would solve the problem, so I can definitely put one on each antenna. I will give it a try and report back. > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 09:36:06 -0700 > From: rkg at teleport.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > Jim, > > I have used these little antenna reflectors both ways, though currently > they are only on the router end since the kid got a laptop with built-in > wifi. > The aluminum only goes on the reflector cutout (the rectangular backing). > > Best, > > rkg > (Richard George) > > On 7/6/2011 9:22 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > > > > I am dealing with the exact same issue as Bob. The signal to my > > garage, which is only a couple of hundred feet from the wireless > > router, comes and goes. Besides general surfing to find the answers > > to car-related questions, I frequently listen to Pandora in the garage > > (great internet radio station, if you have never tried it) and it will > > work fine for minutes to hours, then quit because the signal isnt > > strong enough.I am hoping something like Richard's Parabolic Reflector > > will help. > > > > Richard: I have two questions for you:first, do you put one of these > > on both the router and the receiver? And second, does the foil go on > > both cutouts or just the rectangular backing? > > > > I will report back on how everything worked. > > > > Jim > > > > > Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 09:14:28 -0700 > > > From: rkg at teleport.com > > > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > +1 on the wap/antenna - I built some of these and they helped a lot: > > > > > > http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/ > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > rkg > > > (Richard George) > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Jul 6 11:37:15 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 12:37:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> References: , , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> Message-ID: Rather than hijack Bob's thread, i thought I'd start a new one based on Mike's suggestion, as this is actually the right time to do this. We are putting an addition on our house that necessitated pulling up the underground conduit that brought power from the house to the garage. They have just jury-rigged something for now, but they will be re-running everything shortly. Can I just run the cable in the conduit with the main wire (I have 100 amp service in the garage), or do I need to 1) run a smaller piece of conduit along side it for the computer cable or 2) just get bury-able cable and lay it in the trench? I will probably run a cable line while I am at it, just in case I ever decide to put a TV in there too. Thanks. > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 09:52:04 -0700 > From: mikey at b2systems.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > wire the garage and be done with it, so easy and so much faster than wi-fi > > > mike From mikey at b2systems.com Wed Jul 6 12:02:13 2011 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 11:02:13 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: References: , , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <4E14A325.8030401@b2systems.com> In my case we ran 2 conduits, one for 100amp power and one for everything else, same trench separated by a few inches of sand between the 2 conduits. The contractor said I could run the cat5 in the power line but I also ran telephone, cable and 2 cat5's and 2 extra wires so I could open the garage door remotely with a "doorbell" button by the back door of the house. I believe code in most places will require separate conduits and my contractor was wrong about running both in one but I wanted the second conduit anyway. mike p.s. before you ask I had a "reason" for the 2 cat5's, I run a web server and it gets a different web connection than the rest of the house, not for necessity but for ease of setup and lack of confusion. On 07/06/2011 10:37 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > Rather than hijack Bob's thread, i thought I'd start a new one based > on Mike's suggestion, as this is actually the right time to do this. > We are putting an addition on our house that necessitated pulling up > the underground conduit that brought power from the house to the > garage. They have just jury-rigged something for now, but they will > be re-running everything shortly. Can I just run the cable in the > conduit with the main wire (I have 100 amp service in the garage), or > do I need to 1) run a smaller piece of conduit along side it for the > computer cable or 2) just get bury-able cable and lay it in the > trench? I will probably run a cable line while I am at it, just in > case I ever decide to put a TV in there too. > > Thanks. > > > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 09:52:04 -0700 > > From: mikey at b2systems.com > > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage > > > > wire the garage and be done with it, so easy and so much faster than > wi-fi > > > > > > mike From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 12:18:52 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 14:18:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: References: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > Can I just > run the cable in the conduit with the main wire That would be a bad thing. Low-voltage cable cannot be in the same conduit as house wiring. Put another conduit in the same trench and you should be OK. I'd separate it from the 120/240 line, though, as much as practical. if your service is buried in conduit, it should be 24" deep, if it's underground conductor, it should be 48" (I think). Your Cat-5 conduit can be 12" deep, as there's not much risk of electrocution if you hit it with a shovel later. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From jamesf at groupwbench.org Wed Jul 6 12:31:24 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 14:31:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: References: , , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <02602a85daee2e32add957d3f76c471e.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> > Can I > just > run the cable in the conduit with the main wire (I have 100 amp service in > the > garage), or do I need to 1) run a smaller piece of conduit along side it > for > the computer cable or 2) just get bury-able cable and lay it in the > trench? I > will probably run a cable line while I am at it, just in case I ever > decide to > put a TV in there too. If you run it in the electrical conduit you'll get interference so don't do that. You can bury it with the right cable, a foot or two away. But the right way to do it is in a low voltage conduit (again a foot or two away) with 2 Cat 6 ethernet, 2 POTS (telephone) and 2 coax cables, just so you'll never want for more cables. And run a pull string for when you do :-) jim From arvidj at visi.com Wed Jul 6 13:05:57 2011 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 14:05:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: References: , , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <160E6607A4B84EF0BA7F5C172E46DFC4@HP62011> I think you already answered your question ... "just in case I ever decide to ...". So a separate conduit to cover the "just in case ..." seems to make the most sense. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Stone Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 12:37 PM To: mikey at b2systems.com ; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage Rather than hijack Bob's thread, i thought I'd start a new one based on Mike's suggestion, as this is actually the right time to do this. We are putting an addition on our house that necessitated pulling up the underground conduit that brought power from the house to the garage. They have just jury-rigged something for now, but they will be re-running everything shortly. Can I just run the cable in the conduit with the main wire (I have 100 amp service in the garage), or do I need to 1) run a smaller piece of conduit along side it for the computer cable or 2) just get bury-able cable and lay it in the trench? I will probably run a cable line while I am at it, just in case I ever decide to put a TV in there too. Thanks. From peterwmurray at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:39:38 2011 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:39:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: <160E6607A4B84EF0BA7F5C172E46DFC4@HP62011> References: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com> <160E6607A4B84EF0BA7F5C172E46DFC4@HP62011> Message-ID: I 100% agree with the "just in case" sentiment. Laying down a second conduit should not add much to the cost of placing the first one. That said, there is no reason why you couldn't run fiber in the same conduit as your electric power. Switches that can provide termination at both ends are available cheaply. Oh, and wouldn't this be a good time to run water to the garage? -Peter On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I think you already answered your question ... "just in case I ever decide > to ...". So a separate conduit to cover the "just in case ..." seems to make > the most sense. From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Jul 6 15:30:43 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:30:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: <02602a85daee2e32add957d3f76c471e.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> References: , , , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, , <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , , , <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com>, , <02602a85daee2e32add957d3f76c471e.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> Message-ID: Thanks guys. I don't want to pay the electrician to do the work, so I will just have to time it right and be there to drop a seperate run in at the same time. I will make certain I am ready to go when they do their work. > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 14:31:24 -0400 > From: jamesf at groupwbench.org > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage > > > Can I > > just > > run the cable in the conduit with the main wire (I have 100 amp service in > > the > > garage), or do I need to 1) run a smaller piece of conduit along side it > > for > > the computer cable or 2) just get bury-able cable and lay it in the > > trench? I > > will probably run a cable line while I am at it, just in case I ever > > decide to > > put a TV in there too. > > If you run it in the electrical conduit you'll get interference so don't > do that. > > You can bury it with the right cable, a foot or two away. > > But the right way to do it is in a low voltage conduit (again a foot or > two away) with 2 Cat 6 ethernet, 2 POTS (telephone) and 2 coax cables, > just so you'll never want for more cables. And run a pull string for when > you do :-) > > jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Jul 6 15:35:35 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:35:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: References: , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com>, , <160E6607A4B84EF0BA7F5C172E46DFC4@HP62011>, Message-ID: > Oh, and wouldn't this be a good time to run water to the garage? > > -Peter > That is a great idea and I would love to put a sink in there, but the 'might as well's' on this project are already killing us. I will talk to our general contractor, but I suspect this one might be the straw that would break this camel's bank. From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Wed Jul 6 16:52:03 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 17:52:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage In-Reply-To: References: , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com>, , <4E1492B4.1070901@b2systems.com>, , <160E6607A4B84EF0BA7F5C172E46DFC4@HP62011>, Message-ID: <4E14E713.9060705@tx.rr.com> Rest assured that anywhere with building codes will not allow plumbing and electrical in the same trench. >> Oh, and wouldn't this be a good time to run water to the garage? >> > That is a great idea and I would love to put a sink in there, but the 'might > as well's' on this project are already killing us. I will talk to our general > contractor, but I suspect this one might be the straw that would break this > camel's bank. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:24:14 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 19:24:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> <4E148EF6.2080908@teleport.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > Thanks Richard. B My garage computer is my daughter's old college laptop (maybe > 6 years old) with built in wi-fi too, but I recently bought an external > receiver hopping it would solve the problem, so I can definitely put one on > each antenna. B I will give it a try and report back. For less than a hundred bucks, you can buy a commercial, weatherproof solution. Something like the engenious enh200 (I've used a slightly older model, which would also work, and be cheaper.) would do just fine. It's powered over ethernet, so all you need to do is run one cat 5 cable to it, point it at your shop, and call it a day. couple km of range, depending. (Two, carefully aimed, will do a couple miles, more if you've got optical line of sight.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:33:42 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 19:33:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> <4E148EF6.2080908@teleport.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:24 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jim Stone wrote: >> Thanks Richard. B My garage computer is my daughter's old college laptop (maybe >> 6 years old) with built in wi-fi too, but I recently bought an external >> receiver hopping it would solve the problem, so I can definitely put one on >> each antenna. B I will give it a try and report back. > > For less than a hundred bucks, you can buy a commercial, weatherproof > solution. B Something like the engenious enh200 (I've used a slightly > older model, which would also work, and be cheaper.) would do just > fine. B It's powered over ethernet, so all you need to do is run one > cat 5 cable to it, point it at your shop, and call it a day. B couple > km of range, depending. B (Two, carefully aimed, will do a couple > miles, more if you've got optical line of sight.) > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833168083 is the device I mentioned. There are others. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jibjib at att.net Wed Jul 6 23:02:29 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:02:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: , <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com>, <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> Message-ID: While I am a huge proponent of hard wire vs. wireless, I have a buddy who is an EE working for Boeing. For grins, he set up a pair of coffee can wifi antennas and was able to send and receive over 10 miles, line of sight, to a friends home. The information is out there, if you search. Try the following terms: "coffee can wifi antenna" or click here http://www.google.com/search?q=coffee+can+wifi+antenna&sourceid=ie7&rls=com. microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe= Jack From eric at megageek.com Thu Jul 7 06:55:38 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 08:55:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! Message-ID: I finally got all the permits needed to turn on my solar panels for my entire 'compound!' Here is the first day reporting results... http://tinyurl.com/5sf78c6 If anyone is thinking about going solar, there are lots of programs out there to pay for some or all of the costs (but you may not be able to receive the S-rec credits.) My installation was priced at $138,000! (That's no typo.) Then after they were installed, the engineer wanted to change how the panels mounted to the roof and the entire system was removed, the roof was completely reenforced (sister EVERY rafter and an "A" beam on every rafter.) My total costs... $0!!!! (That's right, in my state, military personnel get free installation!) (The company that paid for my installation gets the S-rec credits however. They should break even in about 5-7 years. After that it's pure profit for them.) There are programs for seniors, and a few other ones out there. The contract is for 20 years, they are on the hook for all the maintenance and repairs. I just get free electricity and the joy of knowing that I'm more green. Note, I have 400amp service to my house. I'm also doing my rental properties, but I have to pay about 10% of the cost for them under a different program. If you have any questions feel free to shoot me a line. I am very satisfied by the company and process. Full disclosure, I qualify for a referral fee, but that is not why I'm posting it here. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From jamesf at groupwbench.org Thu Jul 7 08:02:30 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:02:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37b2e01a087f9a01740d1365ebb7bd00.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> > I finally got all the permits needed to turn on my solar panels for my > entire 'compound!' > > Here is the first day reporting results... > > http://tinyurl.com/5sf78c6 Do you have pics? I did a solar theory/install course this spring, lots of fun. jim From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Thu Jul 7 08:37:00 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:37:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110707143700.8LANK.105100.root@cdptpa-web21-z02> My sister had a system installed on their house that generally provides more than they use. Their system cost less than $10,000, and they have a pretty big house. Most of the daylight hours they are selling power back to their electric company. > My installation was priced at $138,000! (That's no typo.) From 57healey at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 09:28:04 2011 From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:28:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-63166284856478225@unknownmsgid> I understand that the incentives in Texas arent there to make solar make financial sense. I have a large southern facing roof, and 12+ hours of sunlight all summer, it would be nice to fight the high ac costs we pay. On Jul 7, 2011, at 8:52 AM, "eric at megageek.com" wrote: > I finally got all the permits needed to turn on my solar panels for my > entire 'compound!' > > Here is the first day reporting results... > > http://tinyurl.com/5sf78c6 > > If anyone is thinking about going solar, there are lots of programs out > there to pay for some or all of the costs (but you may not be able to > receive the S-rec credits.) > > My installation was priced at $138,000! (That's no typo.) Then after > they were installed, the engineer wanted to change how the panels mounted > to the roof and the entire system was removed, the roof was completely > reenforced (sister EVERY rafter and an "A" beam on every rafter.) > > My total costs... $0!!!! (That's right, in my state, military personnel > get free installation!) (The company that paid for my installation gets > the S-rec credits however. They should break even in about 5-7 years. > After that it's pure profit for them.) There are programs for seniors, > and a few other ones out there. The contract is for 20 years, they are on > the hook for all the maintenance and repairs. I just get free electricity > and the joy of knowing that I'm more green. > > Note, I have 400amp service to my house. I'm also doing my rental > properties, but I have to pay about 10% of the cost for them under a > different program. > > If you have any questions feel free to shoot me a line. I am very > satisfied by the company and process. Full disclosure, I qualify for a > referral fee, but that is not why I'm posting it here. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/57healey at gmail.com From peterwmurray at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 18:38:37 2011 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 20:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wifi to the garage In-Reply-To: References: <4E0F04CB.7000300@hornesystemstx.com> <4E0F43E4.8090908@teleport.com> <4E148EF6.2080908@teleport.com> Message-ID: This is also a good suggestion. I have used the Ubiquiti line of radios myself - they're also very good. No financial interest, but WLAN Parts is a reseller with which I have had good luck: http://www.wlanparts.com/product/LOCOM2/Ubiquiti-Nanostation-LOCO-M2-Outdoor- MIMO-2x2-80211gn.html -Peter On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 8:33 PM, David Scheidt wrote: >> For less than a hundred bucks, you can buy a commercial, weatherproof >> solution. B Something like the engenious enh200 (I've used a slightly >> older model, which would also work, and be cheaper.) would do just >> fine. B It's powered over ethernet, so all you need to do is run one >> cat 5 cable to it, point it at your shop, and call it a day. B couple >> km of range, depending. B (Two, carefully aimed, will do a couple >> miles, more if you've got optical line of sight.) >> > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833168083 > > is the device I mentioned. There are others. > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com From eric at megageek.com Fri Jul 8 05:59:22 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 07:59:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: <20110707143700.8LANK.105100.root@cdptpa-web21-z02> Message-ID: My system was for a 400 amp service on a pretty complicated plan. The price included everything, including the modifications they did to the roof (which later they removed and redid.) The company was 100% professional and worked amazingly. Alot of the cost is in the panels (as you grow in size.) This system is one of the 3 largest in the country privately owned. My friend up the road system's actually hit the limit of how large a private system can be. His cost was less, but he did it a while ago and he did alot of the construction himself. For my rental unit, it's a stand alone house that is slightly smaller than most, the entire system is about $25,000 and I have to pay about $3k of that. Both systems produce the maximum amount of energy based on usage (there is a limit to how big a system you can install. It has to match your 12 month total.) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson My sister had a system installed on their house that generally provides more than they use. Their system cost less than $10,000, and they have a pretty big house. Most of the daylight hours they are selling power back to their electric company. > My installation was priced at $138,000! (That's no typo.) _______________________________________________ From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Fri Jul 8 21:59:25 2011 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 20:59:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cat 6 cable (and water) to the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34ADDA57FA044AF199B7479B1B88129D@delld520> I think you should be able to get the electrician to run an empty flex conduit in the same trench while it is open for the goodwill, as it really isn't any extra work for them. Asking them to place and glue in fittings and such is too much to hope to get for free/ little. And two empty conduits means you can run a pex line through one if water becomes a desire later (really you can use one for both but it makes more sense to keep them separate if you can). If you can buy the conduit ahead of time and have it there, perhaps with a case of sodas for while working and a case of beer for afterwards. . . 1" flex at McMaster is $1.19 a foot, probably much less at a local electrical supply house. It is way bigger than you'd need, but it is easier to snake through bigger tubing. http://www.mcmaster.com/#nonmetallic-conduit/=d3ftbz Good luck! Mark Miller <<< Message: 6 Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:30:43 -0500 From: Jim Stone To: , Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks guys. I don't want to pay the electrician to do the work, so I will just have to time it right and be there to drop a seperate run in at the same time. I will make certain I am ready to go when they do their work. From tputland at charter.net Sat Jul 9 06:41:20 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 08:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender Message-ID: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> Correct me if I am mistaken here: When charging an automotive battery, it has to be in a well ventilated space, correct? If true, what about using a battery tender? Would it be at all dangerous to have a battery tender hooked up to a car that gets covered when in the garage? Thanks Tim From bspidell at comcast.net Sat Jul 9 08:35:56 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 07:35:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender In-Reply-To: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> References: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> Message-ID: <4E18674C.7030207@comcast.net> Tim, Overcharging--charging at too high voltage--will cause a lead-acid battery to vent hydrogen gas (that's why you want to ground to chassis when jumping a car battery--just in case). The modern battery tenders/minders are 'smart;' i.e. they only apply enough voltage to charge, then maintain, a battery. A 'dumb' charger will overcharge a battery; I used one once and forgot to disconnect it and it boiled some of the acid out of the battery, exposing the plates and ruining the battery. I wouldn't be too concerned about this--you aren't likely to create a Hindenburg in your garage. Just be mindful when you open the hood to disconnect the charger there is a slight chance of a small amount of flammable gas (your biggest risk may be forgetting to disconnect the charger). It wouldn't hurt to give any gas a chance to dissipate before disconnecting the charger. Bob On 7/9/2011 5:41 AM, Tim wrote: > Correct me if I am mistaken here: > > When charging an automotive battery, it has to be in a well ventilated > space, correct? > > If true, what about using a battery tender? Would it be at all dangerous > to have a battery tender hooked up to a car that gets covered when in > the garage? > > Thanks > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 09:04:45 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 10:04:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender In-Reply-To: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> References: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> Message-ID: *I will be interested to hear what others say* *but I do not think my 750 MA "Battery Tenders" will be boiling off enough gas to be any kind of hazard. My 40 amp booster charger might be another story. * *Tony * On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Tim wrote: > Correct me if I am mistaken here: > > When charging an automotive battery, it has to be in a well ventilated > space, correct? > > If true, what about using a battery tender? Would it be at all dangerous > to have a battery tender hooked up to a car that gets covered when in > the garage? > > Thanks > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sat Jul 9 10:05:23 2011 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 12:05:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: References: <20110707143700.8LANK.105100.root@cdptpa-web21-z02> Message-ID: <20110709160523.GA92550@sackheads.org> On Fri, Jul 08, 2011 at 07:59:22AM -0400, eric at megageek.com wrote: > The company was 100% professional and worked amazingly. Alot of the cost > is in the panels (as you grow in size.) This system is one of the 3 > largest in the country privately owned. My friend up the road system's > actually hit the limit of how large a private system can be. His cost was > less, but he did it a while ago and he did alot of the construction > himself. There's a limit on how the allowed size of private solar arrays? From bk13 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 9 10:12:00 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 09:12:00 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cat 6 cable (and water) to the garage In-Reply-To: <34ADDA57FA044AF199B7479B1B88129D@delld520> References: <34ADDA57FA044AF199B7479B1B88129D@delld520> Message-ID: <4E187DD0.6000606@earthlink.net> Jim - Depending on the length, it may be worth a little more labor to install rigid PVC. 1 in. x 10 ft. Sch. 40 PVC Conduit is $2.58 at my local Home Depot. Assuming you have a 50' run, that is $12.90 for the pipe vs $57.50 for the flex at the price below. I know HD vs. McMaster may not be an apples to apples, but it is worth a comparison. As a side note, the PVC conduit can also be made flexible with a heat gun. Warm it on low for a minute or two then hold it in place for a little bit and you have a custom piece with no fittings. Heat all the way around the pipe so you get a clean bend. I don't recommend this for a standard 90 or 45 fitting, but it is handy to use for small offsets. Many areas will require schedule 80 for 110V exposed areas as it is more durable. That shouldn't matter for low voltage. I agree with Mark to go with bigger conduit, especially over a long run as it is much easier to pull wires with room. Don't have a fish tape to get a pull string? Tie a light string to paper towel and wrap it with a bit of tape. Feed it in one end and put your vac on the other. You can then pull small stuff with the string or pull a heavier cord for tougher pulls. Brian On 7/8/2011 8:59 PM, Mark Miller wrote: > I think you should be able to get the electrician to run an empty flex > conduit in the same trench while it is open for the goodwill, as it really > isn't any extra work for them. Asking them to place and glue in fittings > and such is too much to hope to get for free/ little. > And two empty conduits means you can run a pex line through one if water > becomes a desire later (really you can use one for both but it makes more > sense to keep them separate if you can). If you can buy the conduit ahead > of time and have it there, perhaps with a case of sodas for while working > and a case of beer for afterwards. . . > > 1" flex at McMaster is $1.19 a foot, probably much less at a local > electrical supply house. It is way bigger than you'd need, but it is easier > to snake through bigger tubing. > http://www.mcmaster.com/#nonmetallic-conduit/=d3ftbz > > Good luck! > > Mark Miller > <<< > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:30:43 -0500 > From: Jim Stone > To:, > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] CAT Cable to Garage > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thanks guys. I don't want to pay the electrician to do the work, so I will > just have to time it right and be there to drop a seperate run in at the > same > time. I will make certain I am ready to go when they do their work. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sat Jul 9 12:11:45 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 13:11:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: <20110709160523.GA92550@sackheads.org> References: <20110707143700.8LANK.105100.root@cdptpa-web21-z02> <20110709160523.GA92550@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <4E1899E1.8030402@tx.rr.com> In my sister's case, the panels were installed under a program provided by their electric company. The maximum capacity that the electric company would let them install was a function of their maximum usage. If you go out and buy your own system you can probably buy whatever size system you want to buy, but you would want to sell back unused capacity to your electric company and they may have the right to limit how much they will buy back. >> The company was 100% professional and worked amazingly. Alot of the cost >> is in the panels (as you grow in size.) This system is one of the 3 >> largest in the country privately owned. My friend up the road system's >> actually hit the limit of how large a private system can be. His cost was >> less, but he did it a while ago and he did alot of the construction >> himself. > There's a limit on how the allowed size of private solar arrays? From jdinnis at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 14:53:50 2011 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:53:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: <20110709160523.GA92550@sackheads.org> References: <20110707143700.8LANK.105100.root@cdptpa-web21-z02> <20110709160523.GA92550@sackheads.org> Message-ID: In our area, it varies by the power company that serves you and the installed capacity of your lines. Where I live, the max we could install was equivilant to about 10kw. On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Jimmie Mayfield < mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 08, 2011 at 07:59:22AM -0400, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > The company was 100% professional and worked amazingly. Alot of the cost > > is in the panels (as you grow in size.) This system is one of the 3 > > largest in the country privately owned. My friend up the road system's > > actually hit the limit of how large a private system can be. His cost > was > > less, but he did it a while ago and he did alot of the construction > > himself. > > There's a limit on how the allowed size of private solar arrays? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From racertod at racertodd.com Sat Jul 9 15:56:20 2011 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:56:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender In-Reply-To: <4E18674C.7030207@comcast.net> References: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110709144347.00bef448@mail.avvanta.com> Bob wrote: >Overcharging--charging at too high voltage--will cause a lead-acid battery >to vent hydrogen gas I have personal experience with this. 15 years ago I bought a used Chevy van for work. The previous owner must be a hunter or fisherman who camped in the vehicle regularly. He had installed a 2nd battery in the far left rear corner of the cargo area for 12v accessories with the vehicle off. There was a battery isolator up front with a wire running from it back to this auxiliary battery. So three days after buying the van, I'm driving around when I smell an odd smell. I've been wrenching on cars for years and I knew all the usual car smells - burnt electrics, melted v-belts, hot fluids, overcooked brakes, etc. This was none of them. I pull over to investigate. I get out of the van and pop the hood. Can't smell the odor outside the van at all. I get back inside and I can smell it. I then notice that with the engine now off I can hear a soft noise in the back of the van. I exit the van and open the rear door. The auxiliary battery is boiling. I mean BOILING. It had a semi-translucent case and I could see bubbles in the acid. The noise was the sound of boiling battery acid. So I was driving around with a van full of hydrogen gas. One spark and I'd have been a rolling mushroom cloud on the freeway. You never saw someone grab a wrench and disconnect a battery so fast. Don't know if it was the alternator or isolator that was the cause. I disconnected the whole isolator system but the alternator died two days later anyway. Bottom line: overcharging really does cause out-gassing. And I'm here to tell the tale... Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 292,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Sat Jul 9 16:30:44 2011 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 18:30:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] AC compressor is tripping 20A breaker Message-ID: Hi All, One of our A/C compressors is tripping its breaker periodically and I'm not sure how to fix it. I know when it trips because the upstairs vents start to blow warm air. The identical downstairs setup has not failed like this. A yellow 20A wire runs from the panel to the outside compressor, once each, for both of our identical units. The 20A panel breaker is tripping in an odd way also: it trips (circuit open), but it looks closed. If I nudge it to the right (open) it gives while the other 20A breaker above it does not give. If I flip it to the right and back again, the power is restored. We're renting the house, but plan to buy it as soon as an oil tank in the ground is removed and certified clean by the state. The current owners of 6 years say this has never happened before - the units are 6 years old. So I don't know if it has always been a chronic problem when the A/C runs a lot in summer or if it's a developing problem. My knowledge of household wiring is fairly basic. Could there be a problem with the wiring that is causing it to short? It does not coincide with rain at least. If there is more resistance in the circuit, would that cause the circuit to trip, or just make things hotter? The owner wants to put in a higher amperage breaker, which I don't consider a safe solution. Any thoughts? Suggested steps to investigate the issue? Thanks in advance, Ian From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 16:41:56 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 17:41:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cat 6 cable (and water) to the garage In-Reply-To: <4E187DD0.6000606@earthlink.net> References: <34ADDA57FA044AF199B7479B1B88129D@delld520> <4E187DD0.6000606@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Jim - Depending on the length, it may be worth a little more labor to > install rigid PVC. B 1 in. x 10 ft. Sch. 40 PVC Conduit is $2.58 at my local > Home Depot. B Assuming you have a 50' run, that is $12.90 for the pipe vs > $57.50 for the flex at the price below. B I know HD vs. McMaster may not be > an apples to apples, but it is worth a comparison If you install rigid conduit, make sure you use sweeps and not elbows! -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From shannahquilts at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 17:34:59 2011 From: shannahquilts at gmail.com (Shannah Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 16:34:59 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: References: <20110707143700.8LANK.105100.root@cdptpa-web21-z02> <20110709160523.GA92550@sackheads.org> Message-ID: How does one find out this information? Can I call just any first-line customer service person at the electric company and expect a useful answer? Thanks! From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jul 9 19:26:11 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 18:26:11 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] AC compressor is tripping 20A breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04b801cc3ea0$5aa62870$0301a8c0@randall> > The 20A panel breaker is > tripping in an odd way also: That suggests a defective breaker. They don't last forever. It's not a Federal Pacific, is it? If so, it's time for a whole new panel. If not, I would probably start by swapping the breaker that holds with the breaker that doesn't. > If there is more resistance in the circuit, would > that cause the circuit to trip, Yes it could, for a compressor. The compressor motor draws a LOT more current when it is starting, so if it can't get started promptly (or drops below normal running speed), then it will blow the breaker. Easy test here is to check the line voltage near the compressor, first with it not running and then with it running. If it drops by more than about 5%, you've got a (potentially dangerous) wiring problem. Depending on how your system works, it could also be a bad thermostat or wiring to it. Most systems will not start successfully against full head pressure, so there is some minimum "off" time before the compressor can be started again. If the thermostat or wires let the compressor stop and then tell it to immediately start again, that could cause blown breakers. Also check the condenser fan (the one that blows hot air). If it doesn't always start for some reason, or is running backwards (don't laugh, I've seen it) that could cause problems. Could be several other faults with the compressor or the rest of the AC system, but those tests are probably best left to someone who knows a bit more about it. > The owner wants to put in a > higher amperage breaker, which I don't consider a safe solution. I'm speechless. I think I'd be tempted to call his fire insurance company, and tell them what he said. Unless of course you are interested in buying a pile of smoldering rubble. -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:28:17 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 20:28:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20110709144347.00bef448@mail.avvanta.com> References: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> <4E18674C.7030207@comcast.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20110709144347.00bef448@mail.avvanta.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Todd Walke wrote: > Bob wrote: > >> Overcharging--charging at too high voltage--will cause a lead-acid battery >> to vent hydrogen gas > > B B B B I have personal experience with this. > > B B B B 15 years ago I bought a used Chevy van for work. B The previous owner > must be a hunter or fisherman who camped in the vehicle regularly. B He had > installed a 2nd battery in the far left rear corner of the cargo area for > 12v accessories with the vehicle off. B There was a battery isolator up front > with a wire running from it back to this auxiliary battery. > > B B B B So three days after buying the van, I'm driving around when I smell > an odd smell. B I've been wrenching on cars for years and I knew all the > usual car smells - burnt electrics, melted v-belts, hot fluids, overcooked > brakes, etc. B This was none of them. Boiling batteries have a very distinct smell. I used to smell it from time to time when I worked at service station along a highway. I think it's hydrogen sulfide or something like that. I always told people 'hey, you're battery is boiling' but was always ignored. Did tow a few of the cars back, though.... -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jul 9 19:29:32 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 18:29:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20110709144347.00bef448@mail.avvanta.com> References: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net><1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20110709144347.00bef448@mail.avvanta.com> Message-ID: <04b901cc3ea0$d28765c0$0301a8c0@randall> > The noise was > the sound of boiling battery acid. FWIW, I've had a similar experience that was caused not by the alternator but by a shorted cell in the battery. I wasn't so lucky, though, the hydrogen/oxygen mixture got ignited and the first thing I knew about it was someone knocking on the door : "Did you know your car is smoking?" Stupid car design : running the hood release cable above the battery ! -- Randall From fishplate at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:32:54 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 21:32:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar Panels are LIVE!!! In-Reply-To: References: <20110707143700.8LANK.105100.root@cdptpa-web21-z02> <20110709160523.GA92550@sackheads.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Shannah Miller wrote: > How does one find out this information? Can I call just > any first-line customer service person at the electric > company and expect a useful answer? I expect you'll need to talk to one of the engineers. CS folks aren't likely to know the details of your service entrance conductors. From fishplate at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:37:55 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 21:37:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] AC compressor is tripping 20A breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 6:30 PM, wrote: > > > Any thoughts? Suggested steps to investigate the issue? 1. 20 Amps is pretty small for a central air conditioning compressor. But no reason to believe it's undersized. 2. A circuit breaker that trips due to overload will only flip halfway or less. It should be between on and off, in the middle position. 3. If it trips when starting, it's possible you have a bad starting capacitor. But if it trips and leaves the handle in the "On" position, I'd suspect a bad breaker. These ~usually~ cost between $5 and $10 -- a cheap enough thing to replace and see if it helps. Is the trip consistent, or intermittent? Jeff "Reddy Kilowatt" Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sat Jul 9 19:41:54 2011 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 21:41:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] AC compressor is tripping 20A breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005c01cc3ea2$8dd592b0$a980b810$@cablespeed.com> Try installing a new breaker.....I have had ones that were erratic. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jul 9 19:44:15 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 18:44:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender In-Reply-To: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> References: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> Message-ID: <04c801cc3ea2$e0b53da0$0301a8c0@randall> Just to echo what others have said, it should be just fine as long as you use a "smart" tender. Even one of the old "trickle chargers" would probably be OK from a safety standpoint, but they will shorten the life of the battery if left on for very long. -- Randall From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 20:29:12 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 21:29:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender In-Reply-To: <04b901cc3ea0$d28765c0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <1b4b3f31.18fae9.1310eea95e8.Webtop.47@charter.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20110709144347.00bef448@mail.avvanta.com> <04b901cc3ea0$d28765c0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: *There was a time period when new batteries were shipped dry and we dealers had to fill* *them with acid and give them an initial charge.* ** *We had about 3 charging parallel with too much amperage and the caps loosened. Some genius showered them with sparks from a disk grinder . . blew the side out of one new battery and splattered acid all over the where. * *Tony* From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Sat Jul 9 21:03:43 2011 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 23:03:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] AC compressor is tripping 20A breaker In-Reply-To: <005c01cc3ea2$8dd592b0$a980b810$@cablespeed.com> References: <005c01cc3ea2$8dd592b0$a980b810$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: Thank you all, this is the type of insight I was hoping to get. I'm going to replace the breaker first (and confirm the brand). If that doesn't fix the issue, then I'll test the voltage at the compressor (I think I can do this by removing the cover on the slow-burn fuse box). I'll also see if I can find a Amp draw sticker on the compressor and see if I can see the gauge of the 30 ft run of wire from the box to the compressor. Thanks again, I love this list. Ian From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sat Jul 9 21:12:11 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 22:12:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers Message-ID: Does anyone here have experience with grass pavers (see http://www.concretepaversguide.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-grass-pavers.html)? The addition we are putting on the house is giving me about a 15x20' basement area with a large enough opening to roll a car into. It is officially not a garage - that would have added lots of zoning complexity - but it is no accident that the space and double doors to the outside just happen to be large enough to allow an Alpine to to be rolled into the area for storage and/or restoration work. Our backyard slopes away from the house, and the 'driveway' into the storage area is a fairly steep hill down. I'll have to be careful rolling a car in (especially one without brakes) and probably use a winch or second car to lower it down. There will be drainage at the bottom of the driveway and a sump pump to take care of any extra water. The original plans called for a concrete 'driveway' (I am not sure what to call it, since the storage area is not officially a garage) but I am thinking this is overkill for something that will only be used once or twice a year, other than perhaps for my lawn mower, snow blower, etc. We have a small backyard, so that much concrete would also dominate the landscape. Grass pavers (perhaps with a concrete base) would seem like a perfect solution, but I have never used them and don't know anyone who has. But, since this group seems to know everything, it seems like the right place to turn for answers. As always, thanks in advance. Jim From bk13 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 9 22:26:08 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 21:26:08 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1929E0.1070002@earthlink.net> Jim - If you are just moving a car once or twice a year, I wouldn't bother with grass pavers. Just drive over the grass, especially since Alpines are light. I expect you have the option to move the car when you want, so you can wait if the ground is really wet. Avoiding the 'driveway' will also help avoid problems if an unpleasant neighbor claims you have an unpermitted garage. If you were actually having a driveway or road that you wanted to look close to a yard, they do work. I've seen the concrete ones used in public applications with trucks and they do a good job at keeping the ground free of ruts. You might want to put in a patio a little longer than the length of a car if you have enough flat space. That way you can roll the car outside if you are doing messy work like sandblasting or wire brushing the frame. Brian On 7/9/2011 8:12 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > Does anyone here have experience with grass pavers (see > http://www.concretepaversguide.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-grass-pavers.html)? > The addition we are putting on the house is giving me about a 15x20' basement > area with a large enough opening to roll a car into. It is officially not a > garage - that would have added lots of zoning complexity - but it is no > accident that the space and double doors to the outside just happen to be > large enough to allow an Alpine to to be rolled into the area for storage > and/or restoration work. > > Our backyard slopes away from the house, and the 'driveway' into the storage > area is a fairly steep hill down. I'll have to be careful rolling a car in > (especially one without brakes) and probably use a winch or second car to > lower it down. There will be drainage at the bottom of the driveway and a > sump pump to take care of any extra water. > > The original plans called for a concrete 'driveway' (I am not sure what to > call it, since the storage area is not officially a garage) but I am thinking > this is overkill for something that will only be used once or twice a year, > other than perhaps for my lawn mower, snow blower, etc. We have a small > backyard, so that much concrete would also dominate the landscape. Grass > pavers (perhaps with a concrete base) would seem like a perfect solution, but > I have never used them and don't know anyone who has. But, since this group > seems to know everything, it seems like the right place to turn for answers. > > As always, thanks in advance. > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From jem at milleredp.com Sun Jul 10 00:40:58 2011 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 23:40:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers In-Reply-To: <4E1929E0.1070002@earthlink.net> References: <4E1929E0.1070002@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4E19497A.9030708@milleredp.com> On 7/9/2011 9:26 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Jim - If you are just moving a car once or twice a year, I wouldn't > bother with grass pavers. When we redid our driveway as part of a remodel a few years back, we put this in the lawn next to the driveway: http://www.invisiblestructures.com/grasspave2.html Sits on a bed of gravel, then the grasspave, then sand, then sod. We drive over it regularly with everything up to a 3/4-ton Suburban, and the route into and out of my trailer-parking slot next to the garage goes over it. It's worked well for us. Issues: a) Make sure the installer (or you...) knows what they're doing. I had a guy working on the lawn who'd never worked with it before, and I pretty much had to follow him around getting things done the way I wanted them. Not super-difficult but certainly more involved than just rolling out sod. b) Make sure the lawn drains. We had a couple low spots where the grass would be too easily torn up due to water puddling. Every year I'd add half an inch of dirt and some seed to low areas, and after three years or so everything was good. c) If you've got a sprinkler system pay careful attention to the heads vs the grasspave. Even then, digging up a sprinkler head for pipe repair will be quite a challenge. d) It still won't protect the grass from bald spots where, for instance, you did a bunch of steering-wheel cranking while backing a trailer in. Keep some seed handy for the inevitable. John. From tputland at charter.net Sun Jul 10 06:29:24 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 08:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks Message-ID: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net> Thanks to all who replied! It is always a learning experience for me when I deal with a new issue with my Roadsters. (learning to be a petrol head one issue at at time.) I didn't know it was the actual boiling of a battery that caused the release of the dangerous gasses. I was told some years ago that you have not had a complete day until you have learned something new. Yesterday was a comlete day! PEACE :-) Tim On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Tim wrote: > Correct me if I am mistaken here: > > When charging an automotive battery, it has to be in a well ventilated > space, correct? > > If true, what about using a battery tender? Would it be at all > dangerous to have a battery tender hooked up to a car that gets > covered when in the garage? > > Thanks > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sun Jul 10 07:05:11 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 08:05:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers In-Reply-To: <4E19497A.9030708@milleredp.com> References: , <4E1929E0.1070002@earthlink.net>, <4E19497A.9030708@milleredp.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys. That is exactly the information I was looking for. Brian: doing nothing is certainly an option, but the amount of rain we now have in St. Louis could prove to be a challenge. I don't know if it is due to climate change or just the cycle we are in, but when they dug the foundation in March we were told that all they needed was three consecutive dry days to be able to pour the walls. That took three months. If the car had been put in there in March, it is possible that I would have been unable to move it yet. Still, you are correct: it is a lot of work and probably considerable expense just for the occasional use. Thanks for the photo Bill. What is even more valuable is knowing that you are still happy after two years. And, John: thanks for letting me know about Invisible Structures. That definitely looks like an option. I suspect that Bill's concrete system would stand up to much more traffic, but one like yours might be absolutely perfect for our occasional use. I am meeting with the contractor tomorrow morning am now in a better position to discuss my options intelligently. Thanks again! > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 23:40:58 -0700 > From: jem at milleredp.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers > > On 7/9/2011 9:26 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > > Jim - If you are just moving a car once or twice a year, I wouldn't > > bother with grass pavers. > > When we redid our driveway as part of a remodel a few years back, we put > this in the lawn next to the driveway: > > http://www.invisiblestructures.com/grasspave2.html > > Sits on a bed of gravel, then the grasspave, then sand, then sod. > > We drive over it regularly with everything up to a 3/4-ton Suburban, and > the route into and out of my trailer-parking slot next to the garage > goes over it. It's worked well for us. > > Issues: > > a) Make sure the installer (or you...) knows what they're doing. I had > a guy working on the lawn who'd never worked with it before, and I > pretty much had to follow him around getting things done the way I > wanted them. Not super-difficult but certainly more involved than just > rolling out sod. > > b) Make sure the lawn drains. We had a couple low spots where the grass > would be too easily torn up due to water puddling. Every year I'd add > half an inch of dirt and some seed to low areas, and after three years > or so everything was good. > > c) If you've got a sprinkler system pay careful attention to the heads > vs the grasspave. Even then, digging up a sprinkler head for pipe > repair will be quite a challenge. > > d) It still won't protect the grass from bald spots where, for instance, > you did a bunch of steering-wheel cranking while backing a trailer in. > Keep some seed handy for the inevitable. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From fishplate at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 07:36:20 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 09:36:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks In-Reply-To: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net> References: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Tim wrote: > I didn't know it was the actual boiling of a battery that caused the release > of the dangerous gasses. Well, not so much the boiling, but the chemical reaction. Hydrogen gas is always present in a charging battery, but usually a levels that aren't significant. From bspidell at comcast.net Sun Jul 10 08:23:57 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 14:23:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks In-Reply-To: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net> Message-ID: <258584957.404505.1310307837790.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Just to be clear, overcharging isn't 'boiling,' like boiling water. The too-high charging voltage causes the sulfuric acid electrolyte to release hydrogen gas; the bubbles are the result of a chemical reaction, not heat. I don't remember the equation but, basically, you're releasing the H2 from H2SO4. The SO4, 'sulfate,' will settle to the bottom of the battery and short out the plates. Bob -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA ----- Original Message ----- Thanks to all who replied! It is always a learning experience for me when I deal with a new issue with my Roadsters. (learning to be a petrol head one issue at at time.) I didn't know it was the actual boiling of a battery that caused the release of the dangerous gasses. I was told some years ago that you have not had a complete day until you have learned something new. Yesterday was a comlete day! PEACE :-) Tim From fishplate at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 08:27:58 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 10:27:58 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers In-Reply-To: References: <4E1929E0.1070002@earthlink.net> <4E19497A.9030708@milleredp.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > If the car had been put > in there in March, it is possible that I would have been unable to move it > yet. An option to preserve the grass but move the car over soggy ground is 2 or 3 sheets of OSB and a couple of people willing to shuffle them as much as necessary to get in and out. Kind of like building the Pyramids, but cheaper than any paving. A case of beer ever time you need to move in and out. On a side note: Around here, the building code has been revised to require sprinkler systems in any garage space that has living quarters above it. Might be something to consider as a better investment... Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sun Jul 10 09:23:07 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 10:23:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers In-Reply-To: References: , <4E1929E0.1070002@earthlink.net>, <4E19497A.9030708@milleredp.com>, , Message-ID: That is certainly something I would do, if this were going to be used as a garage space. I have a friend who was literally seconds from a disaster due to a fire in a garage that was below her children's bedroom. They all got out of the house just a few seconds before the cars exploded and completely wiped out the area that had been the bedroom. So, I wasn't just winking when I said it was designed to hold an Alpine but not qualify as a garage. I don't know if I will ever use it as an active workspace, as the actual garage has a very nice work bay in it already. But the odds are very good that one of my two project cars will be stored there at some point; neither has an engine or a gas tank. The design of the space would make sprinklers very easy to add if I ever decided do do it differently. Thanks for the reminder, just in case that day comes. > Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 10:27:58 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers > From: fishplate at gmail.com > To: jandkstone99 at msn.com > CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > > If the car had been put > > in there in March, it is possible that I would have been unable to move it > > yet. > > An option to preserve the grass but move the car over soggy ground is > 2 or 3 sheets of OSB and a couple of people willing to shuffle them as > much as necessary to get in and out. Kind of like building the > Pyramids, but cheaper than any paving. A case of beer ever time you > need to move in and out. > > On a side note: Around here, the building code has been revised to > require sprinkler systems in any garage space that has living quarters > above it. Might be something to consider as a better investment... > > Jeff Scarbrough > Corrosion Acres, Ga. From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sun Jul 10 09:33:22 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 10:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks In-Reply-To: <258584957.404505.1310307837790.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net>, <258584957.404505.1310307837790.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: This is slightly off-topic, but since the main question seems to have been answered: I have always wondered what caused a battery of mine to explode. I used to have a Mercedes 230sl and the car was only driven occasionally. I didn't have a battery tender then (I don't even know if they were available c1985) and frequently had to charge or jump the battery before using the car. I don't remember the age of the battery at the time of the explosion, but it was probably no more than 5 or 6 years old. I went to start the car one day, turned the key and the battery literally exploded with a loud bang. The hood was down, so the engine compartment contained everything. I hosed everything off, replaced the battery and all was fine. I owned and drove the car for another 15 years without incident. But I have always wondered about the likely cause. Based on this discussion, I assume the spark from the ignition ignited hydrogen gases, but why would the gases build up like that outside the battery? There were no known problems with the ignition system and the car had not been driven recently. I don't remember the temperature at the time, but we were living in Toledo, which almost never gets above the mid 90's. Any thoughts? BTW: one outcome of this event is that I now know what a Mafioso's last thought is: "What the f---?" That is about all time I would have had. > Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 14:23:57 +0000 > From: bspidell at comcast.net > To: tputland at charter.net > CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks > > Just to be clear, overcharging isn't 'boiling,' like boiling water. The too-high charging voltage causes the sulfuric acid electrolyte to release hydrogen gas; the bubbles are the result of a chemical reaction, not heat. I don't remember the equation but, basically, you're releasing the H2 from H2SO4. The SO4, 'sulfate,' will settle to the bottom of the battery and short out the plates. > > Bob > > -------------------------------- > Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Thanks to all who replied! > > It is always a learning experience for me when I deal with a new issue > with my Roadsters. (learning to be a petrol head one issue at at time.) > I didn't know it was the actual boiling of a battery that caused the > release of the dangerous gasses. > > I was told some years ago that you have not had a complete day until you > have learned something new. Yesterday was a comlete day! > > PEACE :-) > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jul 10 11:47:59 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 10:47:59 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks In-Reply-To: References: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net>, <258584957.404505.1310307837790.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <058801cc3f29$82867280$0301a8c0@randall> > I went to start > the car one day, > turned the key and the battery literally exploded with a loud > bang. One possibility would be a broken conductor inside the battery case. I've had that happen several times now. Under the load of the starter, the broken joint can throw sparks but still conduct enough to crank the engine. And the high current of starting would make those older batteries outgas a little, probably due to impurities in the plates. Or it may have just been leftover inside the cells from being charged before. -- Randall From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jul 10 11:52:22 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 10:52:22 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks In-Reply-To: <258584957.404505.1310307837790.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net> <258584957.404505.1310307837790.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <058901cc3f2a$1ef34ee0$0301a8c0@randall> I believe it actually decomposes the water in the electrolyte, producing both hydrogen and oxygen. That's why it explodes so easily; pure hydrogen will just burn. See electrolysis. -- Randall From neiljsherry at talktalk.net Sun Jul 10 12:20:38 2011 From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 19:20:38 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] battery tender--Thanks In-Reply-To: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net> References: <785a53.2392d.1311406056a.Webtop.44@charter.net> Message-ID: <4E19ED76.7000103@talktalk.net> I think you'll find it's not actually boiling - if that was the case it would give off water vapour. The excess charge rate will be causing some heating, but is actually splitting the water molecules - that's why hydrogen and oxygen gases are given off. It just looks like it's boiling because of the heat and the appearance of bubbles. Neil On 10/07/2011 13:29, Tim wrote: > Thanks to all who replied! > > It is always a learning experience for me when I deal with a new issue > with my Roadsters. (learning to be a petrol head one issue at at > time.) I didn't know it was the actual boiling of a battery that > caused the release of the dangerous gasses. > > I was told some years ago that you have not had a complete day until > you have learned something new. Yesterday was a comlete day! > > PEACE :-) > > Tim > > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Tim wrote: > >> Correct me if I am mistaken here: >> >> When charging an automotive battery, it has to be in a well >> ventilated space, correct? >> >> If true, what about using a battery tender? Would it be at all >> dangerous to have a battery tender hooked up to a car that gets >> covered when in the garage? >> >> Thanks >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Mon Jul 11 01:08:58 2011 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 00:08:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] grass pavers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <339F5A8EB1C94B5BB4B26C2C641A9C6E@delld520> Some excellent answers already received, and here comes a perhaps lesser one. If it is only a now and again use you can leave it all in grass (following good drainage etc.) and keep some plywood around to place over the grass to use when you pull in or our of the space. 3 sheets cut in half lengthwise (one piece each wheel track) and you can leapfrog your way anywhere. When I had a hot tub moved to our back deck the movers did just that, though on a somewhat lighter scale. It will distribute the weight so you could go in even if the ground was really wet and soft, and it won't chew up the grass that much. Mark Miller. <<< Message: 6 Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 22:12:11 -0500 From: Jim Stone To: Subject: [Shop-talk] Grass Pavers Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone here have experience with grass pavers (see http://www.concretepaversguide.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-grass-pavers.html)? The addition we are putting on the house is giving me about a 15x20' basement area with a large enough opening to roll a car into. It is officially not a garage - that would have added lots of zoning complexity - but it is no accident that the space and double doors to the outside just happen to be large enough to allow an Alpine to to be rolled into the area for storage and/or restoration work. Our backyard slopes away from the house, and the 'driveway' into the storage area is a fairly steep hill down. I'll have to be careful rolling a car in (especially one without brakes) and probably use a winch or second car to lower it down. There will be drainage at the bottom of the driveway and a sump pump to take care of any extra water. The original plans called for a concrete 'driveway' (I am not sure what to call it, since the storage area is not officially a garage) but I am thinking this is overkill for something that will only be used once or twice a year, other than perhaps for my lawn mower, snow blower, etc. We have a small backyard, so that much concrete would also dominate the landscape. Grass pavers (perhaps with a concrete base) would seem like a perfect solution, but I have never used them and don't know anyone who has. But, since this group seems to know everything, it seems like the right place to turn for answers. As always, thanks in advance. Jim From jandkstone99 at msn.com Mon Jul 11 18:16:44 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:16:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] A little more about Blackstone Labs Message-ID: Based on the recent discussion here about Blackstone Labs, I decided to send them an oil sample from my Alpine. I was fairly certain I had a head gasket leak, although there was no visible coolant in the oil nor visible oil in the coolant. I figured the $25 was a good investment against the pain of removing the head only to find that nothing was wrong. I sent in the sample on Thursday (2nd day air) and they called me up today. The important part of this is the phrase "they called me". All they were obligated to do for my $25 was email me their report. However, someone from Blackstone called me today because the analysis showed significant levels of potassium (a sign of coolant), aluminum and lead (most likely due to excessive piston and bearing wear caused by coolant in the oil). They called because they were concerned about the engine and wanted to be sure I got the news immediately! While I am certainly not happy to have confirmation that I need to pull the head, I am amazed that they took the trouble to call me. Add me to the list of satisfied Blackstone customers! From eric at megageek.com Fri Jul 15 10:54:39 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 12:54:39 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing Message-ID: I have a question that you guys may know about. Water testing. Seems that the only places that do water testing are places that sell filters and such. Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. Thanks. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Jul 15 11:51:03 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:51:03 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E207E07.20905@frontier.com> County health department? County AG extension agent might also have some ideas. eric at megageek.com wrote: > I have a question that you guys may know about. Water testing. > > Seems that the only places that do water testing are places that sell > filters and such. > > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I > would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. > > Thanks. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From tputland at charter.net Fri Jul 15 12:00:08 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 14:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing Message-ID: <2859cbfe.17bc3.1312ef49c84.Webtop.49@charter.net> I seem to remember sending in a sample (around 15 years ago) to some sort of state agency here in WI. tim On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:54 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I have a question that you guys may know about. Water testing. > > Seems that the only places that do water testing are places that sell > filters and such. > > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples > to? I would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. > > Thanks. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a > rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your > territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From fishplate at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 12:30:08 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 14:30:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:54 PM, wrote: > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I > would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. Other than the previously-mentioned Health Department or Extension Agent, it depends. What are you testing for, and how many samples do you need tested? There are plenty of labs that do agricultural testing, and can determine the presence of certain minerals and chemicals in your water. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 15 13:45:45 2011 From: jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net (John B) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:45:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would assume this is because you are on a well. Have you tried contacting local well drillers and asked them where they send their samples? The last time I had well work done, the driller had to provide a water test showing the water was safe to drink. (If that's what you are looking for.) -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 12:55 PM To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing I have a question that you guys may know about. Water testing. Seems that the only places that do water testing are places that sell filters and such. Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. Thanks. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net From jmitch at snet.net Fri Jul 15 14:07:24 2011 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:07:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E209DFC.2050806@snet.net> I don't know if you have public water or a well, but our water company tested our water, when we suspected high iron content. There was no charge. John Mitchell Shelton, CT On 7/15/2011 12:54 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I have a question that you guys may know about. Water testing. > > Seems that the only places that do water testing are places that sell > filters and such. > > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I > would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. > > Thanks. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmitch at snet.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Jul 15 14:41:08 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:41:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E20A5E4.1040704@comcast.net> On 7/15/2011 12:54 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I have a question that you guys may know about. Water testing. > > Seems that the only places that do water testing are places that sell > filters and such. > > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I > would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. > > Thanks. I assume you have a well and want it tested. I had to have mine tested when I got a mortgage and refinanced. The mortgage company used a private testing lab, don't remember the name of the lab. It was a local lab. Your local lender could point you to a lab. Could just call you bank and ask who they use. Peter T. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Jul 15 14:54:10 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:54:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E20A8F2.6010603@comcast.net> On 7/15/2011 12:54 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Seems that the only places that do water testing are places that sell > filters and such. BTW, the tests these guys perform, in my experience, only check for what they can filter out and isn't that scientific. They just used dip strips. Also, if you need a water softener or some other filter don't go with these companies. They sell propriety equipment and you can't get parts. Rather you have to pay them for the parts and service. My water softener broke and was out of warrantee. I found a place online that sells equipment and parts. For a little more than a service call and a fraction of the original system I got a new open source water soften which seems to work better. Peter T. > > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I > would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. > > Thanks. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Jul 15 15:16:58 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:16:58 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E20AE4A.9030203@xxiii.com> On 7/15/2011 12:54 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water samples to? I > would prefer to take the samples myself and send them in. I sent my well water off to these guys a few years ago: http://www.e-watertest.com/ Don't know how one would verify their results, but they seem legit and they're still in biz 4+ years later. IIRC, they were about $125 for the whole panel with mass spectroscopy for over 100 contaminants. Eric -- I'll send you a copy of the report off list (or anyone else that wants) -Wayne From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Sat Jul 16 14:02:29 2011 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 13:02:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quiet air compressor, the recap Message-ID: <88C82DC466714283AE6F93DD91D9B2F7@delld520> I want to thank everyone for their advice as I was snooping for a quiet compressor that we'll use in our lab at work (for anyone who cares: air pressure to drive IC die attach adhesive dispenser, PC board solder paste dispensing, and in a manual IC wire bonder - usually just one at a time). Recommendations included: Use bottled gas (too much of a PITA swapping bottles) Porter Cable C1010 (louder than I want at 71dB) Get a loud one and put it far away (everyone likes this idea except the person at the far away spot....) Various medical and dental unit recommendations (too pricy) Big tank hooked to main system, fill as needed (there is no main system, this is it) Iwata air brush compressors (too low a max PSI) Jun-air and Silentaire (pricier than I wanted - most over $500 used, except for the one sniped out from me on ebay at $255. Grrr.) And a few other airbrush models. I ended up getting a GMC Syclone 1650A for $210. It's 56 dB, about the same as a window AC unit, and is fairly invisible in the lab. When I get around to it I'm going to move it to our server room which already is fairly isolated from everyone. And yes, I'll put it on a separate circuit from the computers. Here is their link to a sound comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpxkGIkVig4 The only drawback is that when it unloads the compressor after filling the tank it blasts out some air and is loud for a bit. Thanks again, Mark Miller From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sat Jul 16 16:56:46 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:56:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quiet air compressor, the recap In-Reply-To: <88C82DC466714283AE6F93DD91D9B2F7@delld520> Message-ID: <20110716225646.7E25D.107980.root@cdptpa-web17-z01> By coincidence I was in my dentist's office a few weeks ago and noticed that when their compressor came on it was pretty loud. It sounded like it was in a closet, and sounded almost like a normal pancake compressor. It wasn't TOO loud, but it was very obvious when it was running. It didn't run very long though. > I ended up getting a GMC Syclone 1650A for $210. It's 56 dB, about the same > as a window AC unit, and is fairly invisible in the lab. When I get around > to it I'm going to move it to our server room which already is fairly > isolated from everyone. And yes, I'll put it on a separate circuit from the > computers. > > Here is their link to a sound comparison: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpxkGIkVig4 > > The only drawback is that when it unloads the compressor after filling the > tank it blasts out some air and is loud for a bit. > > Thanks again, > Mark Miller > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com From shop at shariconglobal.com Sun Jul 17 10:56:08 2011 From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 12:56:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Funny timing, as we just got back the results from the test samples we sent to http://www.h2otest.com/index.html last week. Unfortunately their link to the sample report doesn't work, but if anyone wants to see ours just drop me an email off-list. On a side note, I dropped our samples off in person since they are fairly local to us (they're just north of Reading, PA) and we had a deadline to meet. The the people there were quite courtious and knowledgable, and apparently they've been in business 40 or 50 years (and only do testing). -aric. > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > eric at megageek.com > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 12:55 PM > To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Water testing > > I have a question that you guys may know about. Water testing. > > Seems that the only places that do water testing are places > that sell filters and such. > > Does anyone know of a creditable place that I can send water > samples to? I would prefer to take the samples myself and > send them in. > > Thanks. > > Moose From jmitch at snet.net Tue Jul 19 19:20:19 2011 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 21:20:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent Message-ID: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> Hi, I just ordered a 40 gallon parts washer and I'm now wondering what to use in it. It's going to be in my attached garage, so I'd prefer that there not be horrible fumes but some are ok. I'm not sure whether I'm better off with a water based product or a non-aqueous solvent. Of course I want something that works for greasy cruddy car parts. Any suggestions? And where do I get it from? How much do I need to get? Thanks John Mitchell From bspidell at comcast.net Tue Jul 19 20:05:12 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:05:12 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> References: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> Message-ID: <4E2637D8.8070603@comcast.net> I use mineral spirits. Five gallons should be sufficient (I think the '40 gallons' refers to the entire volume of the cleaner--there should be a tray inside at about the 5/10-gal level). Good solvent, not terribly volatile or toxic. Used to be cheap, but not any more. Bob On 7/19/2011 6:20 PM, John Mitchell wrote: > Hi, I just ordered a 40 gallon parts washer and I'm now wondering what to use in it. It's going to be in my attached > garage, so I'd prefer that there not be horrible fumes but some are ok. I'm not sure whether I'm better off with a > water based product or a non-aqueous solvent. Of course I want something that works for greasy cruddy car parts. Any > suggestions? And where do I get it from? How much do I need to get? Thanks John Mitchell > _______________________________________________ > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From cavanadd at frontier.com Tue Jul 19 20:08:15 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> References: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> Message-ID: <4E26388F.20301@frontier.com> I prefer solvent based cleaners. Kerosene will work but it's smelly and oily. Likewise diesel. I prefer regular mineral spirits/paint thinner/stoddard solvent. If you're feeling wealthy, you can use Agitene, but I don't think it works much better than regular mineral spirits. John Mitchell wrote: > Hi, I just ordered a 40 gallon parts washer and I'm now wondering what > to use in it. It's going to be in my attached garage, so I'd prefer that > there not be horrible fumes but some are ok. I'm not sure whether I'm > better off with a water based product or a non-aqueous solvent. Of > course I want something that works for greasy cruddy car parts. Any > suggestions? And where do I get it from? How much do I need to get? > Thanks John Mitchell > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Jul 19 21:12:46 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:12:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E2637D8.8070603@comcast.net> References: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> <4E2637D8.8070603@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> Just don't be lured by the less-expensive "odorless / non-flammable" mineral spirits. It's mineral spirits emulsified in water, and just not very effective. And though it's a little cheaper, the proportion of mineral spirits is reasonably small - you're buying more water than solvent for maybe a buck less per gallon. It's a real disappointment. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Bob Spidell Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent I use mineral spirits. Five gallons should be sufficient (I think the '40 gallons' refers to the entire volume of the cleaner--there should be a tray inside at about the 5/10-gal level). Good solvent, not terribly volatile or toxic. Used to be cheap, but not any more. Bob From tputland at charter.net Wed Jul 20 04:57:55 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:57:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent--simple green? Message-ID: <760c5b.8c965.1314731de06.Webtop.44@charter.net> Has any one used simple green in a part washer? On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:20 PM, John Mitchell wrote: > Hi, I just ordered a 40 gallon parts washer and I'm now wondering > what to use in it. It's going to be in my attached garage, so I'd > prefer that there not be horrible fumes but some are ok. I'm not sure > whether I'm better off with a water based product or a non-aqueous > solvent. Of course I want something that works for greasy cruddy car > parts. Any suggestions? And where do I get it from? How much do I > need to get? Thanks John Mitchell > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From bjzwissler at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 05:41:01 2011 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:41:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent--simple green? In-Reply-To: <760c5b.8c965.1314731de06.Webtop.44@charter.net> References: <760c5b.8c965.1314731de06.Webtop.44@charter.net> Message-ID: I see two issues with using non-solvent based fluids in parts cleaners. First, I've been told that if you leave aluminum and other non-ferrous materials soaking in them they can corrode all or part of the material away. I've seen some heavy corrosion myself but nothing further. Second, like most detergents it will be "used up" once you've cleaned a finite amount parts. Then you have to dispose of it and that's not easy once its loaded with grease and oil. You could pour it down the drain, but I doubt the local sanitary district would approve. I have mineral spirits and in 15 years I've added some and scraped the bottom of settled out crud a few times that's it. After cleaning in the parts washer with mineral spirits I will often finish up with detergent degreaser and water in the utility tub to get rid of any greasy residue. Ben..... On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:57 AM, Tim wrote: > Has any one used simple green in a part washer? > > > > > On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:20 PM, John Mitchell wrote: > > Hi, I just ordered a 40 gallon parts washer and I'm now wondering what to >> use in it. It's going to be in my attached garage, so I'd prefer that there >> not be horrible fumes but some are ok. I'm not sure whether I'm better off >> with a water based product or a non-aqueous solvent. Of course I want >> something that works for greasy cruddy car parts. Any suggestions? And >> where do I get it from? How much do I need to get? Thanks John Mitchell >> ______________________________**_________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** >> options/shop-talk/tputland@**charter.net >> > ______________________________**_________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/** > options/shop-talk/bjzwissler@**gmail.com From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Wed Jul 20 06:38:53 2011 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:38:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> References: <4E262D53.6030405@snet.net> Message-ID: <001401cc46d9$fd07b4d0$f7171e70$@cablespeed.com> John, my suggestion would be for Simple Green. Buy it in the concentrate form. Call janitorial supply houses, or check big box store about getting a 5 gal. pail. If you can afford it, use it in concentrate form. If you must dilute it for cost reasons, go no weaker that 4:1. It is nonflammable., biodegradable, won't hurt your hands and smells nice. Gerry From tputland at charter.net Wed Jul 20 07:12:35 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: Re: Parts solvent--simple green? Message-ID: <1d660d3.8db45.13147ad2711.Webtop.44@charter.net> Here is a reply I got that didn't go to the list. There are a couple good points to consider..... Tim -------- Begin forwarded message -------- Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent--simple green? Date: 7/20/11 6:41:01 AM From: "Benjamin Zwissler" To: "Tim" Cc: "John Mitchell" , "shop-talk" I see two issues with using non-solvent based fluids in parts cleaners.B First, I've been told that if you leave aluminum and other non-ferrous materials soaking in them they canB corrode all or part of the material away.B I've seen some heavy corrosion myself but nothing further.B Second, like most detergents it will be "used up" once you've cleaned a finite amount parts.B Then you have to dispose of it and that's not easy onceB itsB B loadedB with grease and oil.B You could pour it down the drain, but I doubt the local sanitary district would approve.B I have mineral spirits and in 15 years I've added some and scraped the bottom of settled out crud a few times that's it.B After cleaning in the parts washer with mineral spirits I will often finish up with detergent degreaser and water in the utility tub to get rid of any greasy residue. B Ben..... On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:57 AM, Tim < tputland at charter.net > wrote: Has any one used simple green in a part washer? On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:20 PM, John Mitchell wrote: Hi, B I just ordered a 40 gallon parts washer and I'm now wondering what to use in it. B It's going to be in my attached garage, so I'd prefer that there not be horrible fumes but some are ok. B I'm not sure whether I'm better off with a water based product or a non-aqueous solvent. B Of course I want something that works for greasy cruddy car parts. B Any suggestions? B And where do I get it from? How much do I need to get? B Thanks B B John Mitchell ______________________________ _________________ From clydestutzman at att.net Wed Jul 20 08:05:19 2011 From: clydestutzman at att.net (CLYDE STUTZMAN ) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:05:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: Re: Parts solvent--simple green? In-Reply-To: <1d660d3.8db45.13147ad2711.Webtop.44@charter.net> References: <1d660d3.8db45.13147ad2711.Webtop.44@charter.net> Message-ID: <001f01cc46e6$10fc89f0$32f59dd0$@net> Found this on Grassroots Motorsport site, when a similar question was asked on their blog: The Simple Green website says: Aluminum - Is it safe to use Simple Green on aluminum? Simple Green products have been successfully and safely used on aircraft, automotive, industrial and consumer aluminum items for over 20 years. However, caution and common sense must be used: Aluminum is a soft metal that easily corrodes with unprotected exposure to water. The aqueous-base and alkalinity of Simple Green or Crystal Simple Green can accelerate the corrosion process. Therefore, contact times of All-Purpose Simple Green and Crystal Simple Green with unprotected or unpainted aluminum surfaces should be kept as brief as the job will allow - never for more than 10 minutes. Large cleaning jobs should be conducted in smaller-area stages to achieve lower contact time. Rinsing after cleaning should always be extremely thorough - paying special attention to flush out cracks and crevices to remove all Simple Green/Crystal Simple Green residues. Unfinished, uncoated or unpainted aluminum cleaned with Simple Green products should receive some sort of protectant after cleaning to prevent oxidation. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tim Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:13 AM To: Shop15Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: Re: Parts solvent--simple green? Here is a reply I got that didn't go to the list. There are a couple good points to consider..... Tim -------- Begin forwarded message -------- Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent--simple green? Date: 7/20/11 6:41:01 AM From: "Benjamin Zwissler" To: "Tim" Cc: "John Mitchell" , "shop-talk" I see two issues with using non-solvent based fluids in parts cleaners.B First, I've been told that if you leave aluminum and other non-ferrous materials soaking in them they canB corrode all or part of the material away.B I've seen some heavy corrosion myself but nothing further.B Second, like most detergents it will be "used up" once you've cleaned a finite amount parts.B Then you have to dispose of it and that's not easy onceB itsB B loadedB with grease and oil.B You could pour it down the drain, but I doubt the local sanitary district would approve.B I have mineral spirits and in 15 years I've added some and scraped the bottom of settled out crud a few times that's it.B After cleaning in the parts washer with mineral spirits I will often finish up with detergent degreaser and water in the utility tub to get rid of any greasy residue. B Ben..... On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:57 AM, Tim < tputland at charter.net > wrote: Has any one used simple green in a part washer? On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:20 PM, John Mitchell wrote: Hi, B I just ordered a 40 gallon parts washer and I'm now wondering what to use in it. B It's going to be in my attached garage, so I'd prefer that there not be horrible fumes but some are ok. B I'm not sure whether I'm better off with a water based product or a non-aqueous solvent. B Of course I want something that works for greasy cruddy car parts. B Any suggestions? B And where do I get it from? How much do I need to get? B Thanks B B John Mitchell ______________________________ _________________ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/clydestutzman at att.net From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 08:14:17 2011 From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:14:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Aren't mineral spirits flammable? I know they are said to be less flammable than turpentine, but do they pose a fire risk in a parts washer in a sunny, hot garage with no a/c? Am I being too cautious? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" To: "Bob Spidell" , "John Mitchell" Cc: "shop-talk" Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:12:46 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent Just don't be lured by the less-expensive "odorless / non-flammable" mineral spirits. It's mineral spirits emulsified in water, and just not very effective. And though it's a little cheaper, the proportion of mineral spirits is reasonably small - you're buying more water than solvent for maybe a buck less per gallon. It's a real disappointment. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Bob Spidell Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent I use mineral spirits. Five gallons should be sufficient (I think the '40 gallons' refers to the entire volume of the cleaner--there should be a tray inside at about the 5/10-gal level). Good solvent, not terribly volatile or toxic. Used to be cheap, but not any more. Bob _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Wed Jul 20 09:14:49 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:14:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20110720151449.EXKME.12490.root@cdptpa-web28-z02> There might be some risk but not a lot. Most large parts washers have a lid that will close in case of fire to help put the fire out. The first one of these that I ever saw was I believe a Safety Clean (sp?) many years ago. Their cleaning fluid was not nearly as good as what we were used to using but was less flammable. In fact maybe the O.P. can buy the fluid that they use and put it in his washer. When I started working in my dad's garage many years ago we used naptha (napthalene) in our washer. We had a couple of steel tubs, basically the bottom 8" of a small steel barrel, setting on our workbenches. We would fill them with fresh naptha and we had a round plywood disk that would set on top of the tub to control evaporation and fire danger. In 6 years I never remember a fire but my dad said that they had set them on fire a few times with welding sparks and such. They would just set the plywood disk on top of the tub and that would put it out. That stuff was very good at cleaning parts. We were in oil country so it was easy to get as much of that stuff as we wanted. > Aren't mineral spirits flammable? I know they are said to be less flammable than turpentine, but do they pose a fire risk in a parts washer in a sunny, hot garage with no a/c? Am I being too cautious? From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 09:16:40 2011 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:16:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1031460191.108400.1311175000461.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> re: "Aren't mineral spirits flammable?" Yes, but so is wood, and you've probably lived inside a wood-framed house or apartment (actually, I'm surprised some nanny-state do-gooder hasn't gone off about this). When I recommended MS for a parts cleaner, I assumed readers of this list would understand and be comfortable with reasonable precautions (aka 'common sense') when using any petrochemical. If you decide to throw caution to the wind and use the best all-around solvent in your cleaner, remember to: 1) place the parts cleaner a reasonable distance from any source of ignition (e.g. gas-fired water heater, space heater, air compressor, living room fireplace, etc.) 2) use in a reasonably well-ventilated area (open the doors/windows in your garage). A/C not required and is arguably more dangerous anyway due to possible sparking from electric motor brushes and recirculation of vapors. 3) do not smoke while cleaning your parts 4) do not weld over your parts cleaner 5) close the lid on the parts cleaner when you're done cleaning parts (there's a reason they have lids; one of several reasons parts cleaners are superior to buckets) If you use a water-based compound like Simple Green the used liquid should be treated like a hazardous material; i.e. no dumping down the drain or on the ground--take to approved HazMat recovery facility only--whereas MS can be reused almost indefinitely , like another lister pointed out. Bob -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA ----- Original Message ----- Aren't mineral spirits flammable? I know they are said to be less flammable than turpentine, but do they pose a fire risk in a parts washer in a sunny, hot garage with no a/c? Am I being too cautious? Tom Just don't be lured by the less-expensive "odorless / non-flammable" mineral spirits. It's mineral spirits emulsified in water, and just not very effective. And though it's a little cheaper, the proportion of mineral spirits is reasonably small - you're buying more water than solvent for maybe a buck less per gallon. It's a real disappointment. Karl I use mineral spirits. Five gallons should be sufficient (I think the '40 gallons' refers to the entire volume of the cleaner--there should be a tray inside at about the 5/10-gal level). Good solvent, not terribly volatile or toxic. Used to be cheap, but not any more. Bob From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Wed Jul 20 10:00:11 2011 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:00:11 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> Check with a local supplier for a 'high flash point' solvent. The higher flash point adds a measure of protection but you should always close the top on your parts washer when you are not using it. It reduces evaporation and reduces the chance for something that might ignite the solvent. In addition, the closed top snuffs out the source for oxygen to feed a fire. If your parts washer has a lower barrel that houses the solvent and is pumped up through a nozzle for cleaning, you can make a few improvements to the washer that will extend the solvent's life. Add a filter in the pickup line. I used a spin on filter adapter and use large hydraulic filters that I buy in bulk for cheap. The filter catches a lot of the particulate junk that gets suspended in the solvent. Extend the drain line to almost the bottom of the barrel, then add about 5-10 gallons of water. The solvent will drain at the bottom of the tank under the water line and float to the top. The larger junk will be partially filtered out as it rises through the water. This system works well but you end up with a nice layer of sludge at the bottom of the barrel that has to be cleaned out periodically. Gil Nashville From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 20 10:48:20 2011 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:48:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <1031460191.108400.1311175000461.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1031460191.108400.1311175000461.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <088c01cc46fc$d5419650$7fc4c2f0$@rr.com> > (actually, I'm surprised some nanny-state do-gooder > hasn't gone off about this). They have, in some respects & areas. For example, in my area, we aren't allowed to have wooden roofs unless they are treated with fire retardant. But as noted, with reasonable precautions (mostly decent ventilation and distance from ignition sources), mineral spirits are reasonably safe. Safer than gasoline anyway, which I've frequently used. -- Randall From jmitch at snet.net Wed Jul 20 13:38:40 2011 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:38:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> References: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> I bought 5 gallons of super agitene today. They have a version with a higher flashpoint of 141 degrees, which makes it a little safer than mineral spirits. My parts washer has a lid that closes automatically if it senses high temperature. I keep all sorts of things in my shop that are flammable, so I'm not especially worried about this. I think I will try to add some sort of a filter system. Thanks for everyone's reply. John Mitchell On 7/20/2011 12:00 PM, Gil Fuqua wrote: > Check with a local supplier for a 'high flash point' solvent. The higher > flash point adds a measure of protection but you should always close the top > on your parts washer when you are not using it. It reduces evaporation and > reduces the chance for something that might ignite the solvent. In addition, > the closed top snuffs out the source for oxygen to feed a fire. > > If your parts washer has a lower barrel that houses the solvent and is pumped > up through a nozzle for cleaning, you can make a few improvements to the > washer that will extend the solvent's life. Add a filter in the pickup line. > I used a spin on filter adapter and use large hydraulic filters that I buy in > bulk for cheap. The filter catches a lot of the particulate junk that gets > suspended in the solvent. > > Extend the drain line to almost the bottom of the barrel, then add about 5-10 > gallons of water. The solvent will drain at the bottom of the tank under the > water line and float to the top. The larger junk will be partially filtered > out as it rises through the water. This system works well but you end up with > a nice layer of sludge at the bottom of the barrel that has to be cleaned out > periodically. > > Gil > Nashville > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmitch at snet.net From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:40:02 2011 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:40:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> References: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> Message-ID: *I added a 10 micron inline diesel filter to the pressure of my pump and a large gym sock to the drain side. I bleeeeve the sock catches 99% of the crud and I just replace the sock about once a year. I use solvent from a local oil distributor. Tony * *The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.* From mikey at b2systems.com Wed Jul 20 14:43:17 2011 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:43:17 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> References: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> Message-ID: <4E273DE5.4020509@b2systems.com> The filter is a great idea but please let us all know how the super agitene works, I have been following this thread quite closely, I currently use SafetyKleen but can't get it anymore due to EPA regs in Calif. (I don't want to sign up as a EPA polluter for a home garage, so no more SafetyKleen for me). mike On 07/20/2011 12:38 PM, John Mitchell wrote: > I bought 5 gallons of super agitene today. They have a version with a > higher flashpoint of 141 degrees, which makes it a little safer than > mineral spirits. My parts washer has a lid that closes automatically > if it senses high temperature. I keep all sorts of things in my shop > that are flammable, so I'm not especially worried about this. I think > I will try to add some sort of a filter system. Thanks for everyone's > reply. John Mitchell From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 16:43:53 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:43:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent--simple green? In-Reply-To: References: <760c5b.8c965.1314731de06.Webtop.44@charter.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Benjamin Zwissler wrote: > I see two issues with using non-solvent based fluids in parts cleaners. > First, I've been told that if you leave aluminum and other non-ferrous > materials soaking in them they can corrode all or part of the material > away. B I've seen some heavy corrosion myself but nothing further. B Second, > like most detergents it will be "used up" once you've cleaned a finite > amount parts. B Then you have to dispose of it and that's not easy > once its B loaded with grease and oil. Which is much easier than dealing with mineral spirits. Most places, you simply allow the water to evaporate, and dispose of the solids. Places with air pollution restrictions on that, you skim the oil from the top, settle and filter the solids out of the aqueous phase, and dispose of them. the aqueous phase is waste water, unless it's ph is too high, or it contains substantial heavy metal, which isn't usually true of most home use. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From rolds at plausa.com Wed Jul 20 17:41:59 2011 From: rolds at plausa.com (Ron Olds) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:41:59 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E273DE5.4020509@b2systems.com> References: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> <4E273DE5.4020509@b2systems.com> Message-ID: I have used super agitene for years and have had no problem with it. High flash point and not a strong odor. I used it without a filter but like the idea. Ronald Olds -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mike Rambour Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 4:43 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent The filter is a great idea but please let us all know how the super agitene works, I have been following this thread quite closely, I currently use SafetyKleen but can't get it anymore due to EPA regs in Calif. (I don't want to sign up as a EPA polluter for a home garage, so no more SafetyKleen for me). mike On 07/20/2011 12:38 PM, John Mitchell wrote: > I bought 5 gallons of super agitene today. They have a version with a > higher flashpoint of 141 degrees, which makes it a little safer than > mineral spirits. My parts washer has a lid that closes automatically > if it senses high temperature. I keep all sorts of things in my shop > that are flammable, so I'm not especially worried about this. I think > I will try to add some sort of a filter system. Thanks for everyone's > reply. John Mitchell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rolds at plausa.com From cavanadd at frontier.com Wed Jul 20 20:30:39 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:30:39 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Need to buy a plasma cutter for school Message-ID: <4E278F4F.6030008@frontier.com> My Tech Ed director needs to spend some money this summer and I can use a new plasma cutter for my welding lab. I can probably spend $1000-1500 or so, would prefer single phase 230, but have 3 phase available, and need something that the kids won't be able to destroy for a while. Reasonably priced consumables would be good, too. Any suggestions? thanks Dave From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Jul 20 21:06:05 2011 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Need to buy a plasma cutter for school In-Reply-To: <4E278F4F.6030008@frontier.com> References: <4E278F4F.6030008@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jul 2011, David C. wrote: > My Tech Ed director needs to spend some money this summer and I can use a new > plasma cutter for my welding lab. I can probably spend $1000-1500 or so, > would prefer single phase 230, but have 3 phase available, and need something > that the kids won't be able to destroy for a while. Reasonably priced > consumables would be good, too. Hypertherm Powermax 30 or 45 ( opposite ends of your price range ). I don't have one, but you will have to look pretty long and hard to find people who don't love their Hypertherm plasmas. -- David Hillman From jem at milleredp.com Wed Jul 20 23:43:18 2011 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:43:18 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E273DE5.4020509@b2systems.com> References: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> <4E273DE5.4020509@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <4E27BC76.9060502@milleredp.com> On 7/20/2011 1:43 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: > The filter is a great idea but please let us all know how the super > agitene works, I have been following this thread quite closely, I > currently use SafetyKleen but can't get it anymore due to EPA regs in > Calif. (I don't want to sign up as a EPA polluter for a home garage, so > no more SafetyKleen for me). I suppose you could bring back a few buckets from OR, AZ, NV, etc. Then you hit the ag inspection station... "Do you have any fruits or vegetables?" "No" "Solvents, paints, toilets, showerheads, or school textbooks?" "Uh..." John. From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Thu Jul 21 09:24:42 2011 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:24:42 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: References: <000701cc468a$e6afe4e0$b40faea0$@ameritech.net> <2061778962.12135.1311171257256.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2AC75@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> <4E272EC0.6090906@snet.net> <4E273DE5.4020509@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <7F60FBB4505509419A67E9116F2BBFFE02F2BF4B@BNAVEX01.cci-ir.com> I posted a few pictures of my parts washer at: http://gilfuqua.smugmug.com/Other/Parts-Washer-Filter/18154196_g8BThr#1394114 085_Nr2nCLx One shows the filter installation and another the stainless steel colanders that I use in the washer to hold parts. You can buy the colanders in the kitchen gear section of your local Target or Wal-Mart. They are sturdy and work great. Gil Nashville -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Ron Olds Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 6:42 PM To: Mike Rambour; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent I have used super agitene for years and have had no problem with it. High flash point and not a strong odor. I used it without a filter but like the idea. Ronald Olds -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mike Rambour Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 4:43 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent The filter is a great idea but please let us all know how the super agitene works, I have been following this thread quite closely, I currently use SafetyKleen but can't get it anymore due to EPA regs in Calif. (I don't want to sign up as a EPA polluter for a home garage, so no more SafetyKleen for me). mike On 07/20/2011 12:38 PM, John Mitchell wrote: > I bought 5 gallons of super agitene today. They have a version with a > higher flashpoint of 141 degrees, which makes it a little safer than > mineral spirits. My parts washer has a lid that closes automatically > if it senses high temperature. I keep all sorts of things in my shop > that are flammable, so I'm not especially worried about this. I think > I will try to add some sort of a filter system. Thanks for everyone's > reply. John Mitchell _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rolds at plausa.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com From eric at megageek.com Thu Jul 21 18:34:17 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:34:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Need to buy a plasma cutter for school In-Reply-To: <4E278F4F.6030008@frontier.com> Message-ID: David, I just bought one this winter. It's a Ramsond. I love it. It was cheap and works great. My only complaint is the color scheme! Note, this is my first unit, so I'm not sure if other units are even better. But for the money I spent, I'm VERY happy with it's performance. Here is the website... http://www.ramsond.com/weldprod.php The consumables are cheap as well. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "David C." Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 07/20/2011 10:29 PM To shop-talk cc Subject [Shop-talk] Need to buy a plasma cutter for school My Tech Ed director needs to spend some money this summer and I can use a new plasma cutter for my welding lab. I can probably spend $1000-1500 or so, would prefer single phase 230, but have 3 phase available, and need something that the kids won't be able to destroy for a while. Reasonably priced consumables would be good, too. Any suggestions? thanks Dave _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Fri Jul 22 06:06:35 2011 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:06:35 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas tank-based water heaters? Message-ID: <20110722120635.GA7984@sackheads.org> Not really shop-related but... My current water heater is approaching 20 years old so it's probably time to preemptively replace it before it suffers a failure. This one is a 40gal Rheem Fury and given its resilience, I might be naively tempted to buy another Rheem and be done with it. But the cynic in me says that a lot can change in 20 years. So what brand/models of tank-based gas water heaters should I avoid? Do they still typically use pilot lights or do they use hot-surface or spark ignition (meaning that I'll need to run a circuit to the water heater's closet)? Thanks! JM From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Jul 22 06:35:27 2011 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:35:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas tank-based water heaters? In-Reply-To: <20110722120635.GA7984@sackheads.org> References: <20110722120635.GA7984@sackheads.org> Message-ID: Most new construction seems to use the kind with an exhaust blower, because they don't need a flue and chimney, just a PVC pipe to the outside. But the "classic" model is still easy to get, since there will always be a demand for replacements. I think the main differences these days are better insulation and something in the burner that detects CO or a lack of oxygen, and shuts it down. Consumer guides always seem to say the the biggest predictor of quality is the length of the warranty, not the brand. Doug On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > Not really shop-related but... > > My current water heater is approaching 20 years old so it's probably time to > preemptively replace it before it suffers a failure. This one is a 40gal Rheem > Fury and given its resilience, I might be naively tempted to buy another > Rheem and be done with it. But the cynic in me says that a lot can change in > 20 years. > > So what brand/models of tank-based gas water heaters should I avoid? > > Do they still typically use pilot lights or do they use hot-surface or spark > ignition (meaning that I'll need to run a circuit to the water heater's closet)? > > Thanks! From jibjib at att.net Fri Jul 22 13:50:42 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:50:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Natural gas tank-based water heaters? In-Reply-To: <20110722120635.GA7984@sackheads.org> References: <20110722120635.GA7984@sackheads.org> Message-ID: I like ones with big sacrificial anodes that are easy to change, so I actually change them every few years. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jimmie Mayfield Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 5:07 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Bulk] [Shop-talk] Natural gas tank-based water heaters? Not really shop-related but... My current water heater is approaching 20 years old so it's probably time to preemptively replace it before it suffers a failure. This one is a 40gal Rheem Fury and given its resilience, I might be naively tempted to buy another Rheem and be done with it. But the cynic in me says that a lot can change in 20 years. So what brand/models of tank-based gas water heaters should I avoid? Do they still typically use pilot lights or do they use hot-surface or spark ignition (meaning that I'll need to run a circuit to the water heater's closet)? Thanks! JM _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From pethier at comcast.net Fri Jul 22 22:47:45 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 04:47:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Parts solvent In-Reply-To: <4E27BC76.9060502@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <722515175.230469.1311396465479.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> > I suppose you could bring back a few buckets from OR, AZ, NV, etc. > > Then you hit the ag inspection station... > > "Do you have any fruits or vegetables?" > > "No" > > "Solvents, paints, toilets, showerheads, or school textbooks?" > > "Uh..." > > John. She didn't ask any of those things. All she said was, "I want to look in your trailer". I could have had a thousand diseased watermelons in the motor home, but all she wanted was to look in the trailer. Could have had more contraband in the boot of the TR4, too... Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue 2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch 2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://www.mnautox.com B From bob at texmog.com Sun Jul 24 12:43:01 2011 From: bob at texmog.com (Bob Nogueira) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:43:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fresh Air Mask Message-ID: Ibve got a Hobby Air fresh air breathing system that I use when spraying paint ( thanks John Blair) . The rubber mask is pretty much trashed and I need to replace it. Looking on line I found a Direct Feed Tyvek Hood, and was wondering if anyone has used this type hood for painting? Any thoughts or recommendations? Bob Nogueira From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sun Jul 24 12:47:57 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:47:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fresh Air Mask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E2C68DD.4070507@hornesystemstx.com> I use Tyvek overalls when spraying Latex, but not used the hood. I use a fabric filter and head cover, but still get paint in my nose. What type of paint are you spraying? Peace, Pat Thusly spake Bob Nogueira, On 7/24/2011 1:43 PM: > Ibve got a Hobby Air fresh air breathing system that I use when spraying > paint ( thanks John Blair) . The rubber mask is pretty much trashed and I > need to replace it. Looking on line I found a Direct Feed Tyvek Hood, and > was wondering if anyone has used this type hood for painting? > Any thoughts or recommendations? > > Bob Nogueira > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From shop at shariconglobal.com Sun Jul 24 17:04:03 2011 From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:04:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> Howdy all, and sorry for not paying attention when this topic went through a couple months ago; I didn't realize we'd be buying a house or that it would have an underground oil tank. In a nutshell, I just found out yesterday that the house we're closing on on Friday has a 1000 gallon underground tank of unknown (to me) age and can't for the life of me remember what the list had to say on the subject of underground tanks. I recall something about old ones being potentially very costly if they leak and that insurance for that sort of thing may or may not be available. Mind refreshing my memory as to the gist of the earlier discussion? And for shop content, there's a dilapidated 30'x40' workshop on the property that we'll be fixing up and putting a second floor on for storage space. Thanks, -aric. From kvacek at ameritech.net Sun Jul 24 17:48:08 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:48:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor Message-ID: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> After having sharpened drills freehand all my life, a couple of days ago I finally decided I needed to look at a Drill Doctor. Just not as steady and patient as I once thought I was. I had half an hour to spend at Sears this afternoon and lo and behold, they had a Drill Doctor 750X on the closeout cart for $75. Apparently complete, apparently unused, just an opened box return. I bought it - even Amazon gets nearly $140 for it. Before I use it and it's all mine like it or not, anyone have any experience with them? Are they accurate and worth it? Any problems? TIA Karl Pilots - Looking down on people since 1903 From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 18:07:20 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:07:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor In-Reply-To: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> References: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > After having sharpened drills freehand all my life, a couple of days ago I > finally decided I needed to look at a Drill Doctor. B Just not as steady and > patient as I once thought I was. > > > > I had half an hour to spend at Sears this afternoon and lo and behold, they > had a Drill Doctor 750X on the closeout cart for $75. B Apparently complete, > apparently unused, just an opened box return. B I bought it - even Amazon > gets nearly $140 for it. > > Ive got one ( a very low end one they no longer sell). Works fine. Read the manual, and watch the instriuctional videos. Mounting the bit in the chuck is a little fiddly. Mine is a fixed angle, I don't know how well the adjustable angles work; it's about 133 degrees insted of 135, at least if my factory bits are ground right. Doesn't matter after the first sharpening, but it's sort of annoying the frist time. > > Before I use it and it's all mine like it or not, anyone have any experience > with them? B Are they accurate and worth it? B Any problems? > > > > TIA > > Karl > > > > > > Pilots - > > Looking down on people since 1903 > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 18:10:51 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:10:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank In-Reply-To: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> References: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Aric wrote: > Mind refreshing my memory as to the gist of the earlier discussion? > Make the purchase conditional on the removal of the tank, and any required soil remediation. (Your mortgage company is likely to want the same thing.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From shop at shariconglobal.com Sun Jul 24 18:52:43 2011 From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 20:52:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor In-Reply-To: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> References: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <0901E642954349DE830869BFBA2966EB@Tablet> Finally! A topic I can help with!!! I picked up a 750x a couple years back and I'm still undecided about it. Sometimes it puts a great point on, other times it puts a left hand relief on a right hand drill. Apparently it's a result of improper timing of the drill in the holder, but damned if I can figure out what I'm doing wrong (since it'll do it wrong 3 times in a row and then correctly, all without me changing a thing). Small drills can be a pain due to being shorter than the collet and I have yet to figure out how to use it to touch up the point on centerdrills. I also haven't yet figured out how to properly touch up 135deg split point carbide drills with it, or parabolic for that matter. That said, it usually works just fine for regular drills and I'll usually at least give it a try before heading over to the grinder to do it by hand. -aric. > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek > Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 7:48 PM > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor > > After having sharpened drills freehand all my life, a couple > of days ago I finally decided I needed to look at a Drill > Doctor. Just not as steady and patient as I once thought I was. > > > > I had half an hour to spend at Sears this afternoon and lo > and behold, they had a Drill Doctor 750X on the closeout cart > for $75. Apparently complete, apparently unused, just an > opened box return. I bought it - even Amazon gets nearly $140 for it. > > > > Before I use it and it's all mine like it or not, anyone have > any experience with them? Are they accurate and worth it? > Any problems? > > > > TIA > > Karl From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jul 24 19:13:02 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:13:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor In-Reply-To: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> References: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <00e301cc4a68$0041fac0$0301a8c0@randall> > lo and behold, they > had a Drill Doctor 750X on the closeout cart for $75. I've got one, 750 I think. Don't use it very often; and when I do it seems like I always spend an inordinate amount of time re-reading the manual to understand how to use it. But once I dope it out, it seems to work well. However, I've not tried any of the fancy things you can supposedly do (like split points & such). It'll never pay for itself (in my lifetime anyway) as I just don't sharpen drills all that often. But it's a fun toy, and sure beats having to drive to the store. -- Randall From tputland at charter.net Sun Jul 24 19:15:55 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank Message-ID: <70c623e6.675de.1315edcd611.Webtop.47@charter.net> inspection inspection in spection. Did I mention, IN SPEC TION? On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Aric wrote: > Howdy all, and sorry for not paying attention when this topic went > through a > couple months ago; I didn't realize we'd be buying a house or that it > would > have an underground oil tank. > > In a nutshell, I just found out yesterday that the house we're closing > on on > Friday has a 1000 gallon underground tank of unknown (to me) age and > can't > for the life of me remember what the list had to say on the subject of > underground tanks. I recall something about old ones being > potentially very > costly if they leak and that insurance for that sort of thing may or > may not > be available. > > Mind refreshing my memory as to the gist of the earlier discussion? > And for shop content, there's a dilapidated 30'x40' workshop on the > property > that we'll be fixing up and putting a second floor on for storage > space. > > Thanks, > > -aric. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From eric at megageek.com Sun Jul 24 20:13:02 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:13:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank In-Reply-To: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> Message-ID: Here is the deal. Don't touch the property unless they remove the tank first. Here is why... Tanks haven't been buried in a long time. If they are in the ground, they are old. If they are old, they most likely leak. If they leak, it is expensive to clean it up! True, there are insurance policies for this, but as a new buyer, you may not be able to get one. My 1000 Gal was just pulled and it leaked. I had insurance and the whole thing cost me about $4000. Without insurance, it would have been tens of thousands of dollars! If it would have been in the water table, or on someone else's property, my policy would not have covered it and it could have been hundreds of thousands of dollars. In my search before pulling the tank, I have read about enough people who went bankrupt with a leaking tank (some with policies that didn't cover the extended damage.) If you already bought the place, GET INSURANCE AND REMOVE THE TANK TODAY!!!! Don't wait another day!!! Also, COMPLETELY remove the tank, don't just fill it in. I'm at Army training now, but if you want to talk about this more, email me and I'll give you my phone number. It's a very scary road alone!! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Sun Jul 24 20:22:23 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:22:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor In-Reply-To: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: I got one and does work. Make sure you watch the DVD a few times to learn how to use it. For that price, I would buy it. I paid just over $110 for mine and I'm content with the purchase and it gets used every now and then. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "Karl Vacek" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 07/24/2011 07:31 PM Please respond to KVacek at Ameritech.net To cc Subject [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor After having sharpened drills freehand all my life, a couple of days ago I finally decided I needed to look at a Drill Doctor. Just not as steady and patient as I once thought I was. I had half an hour to spend at Sears this afternoon and lo and behold, they had a Drill Doctor 750X on the closeout cart for $75. Apparently complete, apparently unused, just an opened box return. I bought it - even Amazon gets nearly $140 for it. Before I use it and it's all mine like it or not, anyone have any experience with them? Are they accurate and worth it? Any problems? TIA Karl Pilots - Looking down on people since 1903 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From jibjib at att.net Sun Jul 24 23:38:15 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:38:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, replace the front rotors last weekend and the brakes all the way around. The suspension was tight, with no apparent damaged or worn components. What I did find was a discolored portion on one disk, the one that vibrated. There is obviously an issue with the material in one area, either heat affected, splashed when very hot or something. I did not do a runout check, as I didn't notice the area initially, but it feels smooth with no visible cracks, just a darker area about 1.25 inches in "diameter". Whatever altered that area was likely the problem. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jibjib at att.net Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:08 PM To: 'Shop Talk List' Subject: [Shop-talk] Pulsing brakes I have an interesting issue puzzling me. My 2006 Chevy Malibu is about ready for brakes, which I will be doing shortly. The biggest issue is a pulsing from the left front wheel. The pulsing is very mild for all driving, almost indiscernible. When I am driving down hills, even when the brakes are dead cold, the vibration has gotten moderately severe; to the point that I'm thinking it might be more than just the rotor. I did the tie rod ends at 78k miles and now we are at 118K. The shimmy has always been worse on down hills, which perplexes me. The car will be getting new rotors and brake pads up front, where the shimmy is. If there is still a problem, that I do not see when I change out the rotors and pads, I'll address it, but I was just wondering if anyone had a plausible explanation of why the shimmy is so much worse on a downhill. It is not heat build up, as I've experimented with not using the brakes until the downhill and from the first application, the shimmy is far worse. Thoughts? Thanks in advance, Jack _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From kennedybc at comcast.net Mon Jul 25 05:44:00 2011 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 04:44:00 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank In-Reply-To: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> References: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> Message-ID: I had an underground oil tank for few years in OR. Heating bills were going out of sight, so I switched to a heat pump and had them fill the tank with sand. I sold the pumped out oil to a friend of a friend. Fortunately, this one didn't leak, but I did hear a horror story or two about what happens if they do leak. Sure glad it's gone. Brian K On Jul 24, 2011, at 4:04 PM, Aric wrote: > Howdy all, and sorry for not paying attention when this topic went through a > couple months ago; I didn't realize we'd be buying a house or that it would > have an underground oil tank. > > In a nutshell, I just found out yesterday that the house we're closing on on > Friday has a 1000 gallon underground tank of unknown (to me) age and can't > for the life of me remember what the list had to say on the subject of > underground tanks. I recall something about old ones being potentially very > costly if they leak and that insurance for that sort of thing may or may not > be available. > > Mind refreshing my memory as to the gist of the earlier discussion? > > And for shop content, there's a dilapidated 30'x40' workshop on the property > that we'll be fixing up and putting a second floor on for storage space. > > Thanks, > > -aric. From kennedybc at comcast.net Mon Jul 25 05:56:05 2011 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 04:56:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Formica counter Message-ID: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> We have a formica countertop that's at least 20 years old, probably more like 35 years. Near as we can tell, the countertop is glued down. No nice little brackets. We pried up a corner of the formica an don't see any screws or nails going in from the top, but that may be the case. We're concerned that if we pull up the counter top, we'll damage the cupboards that are still in good shape. We're thinking about going over the existing formica after re-gluing the raised corners. Bad idea? Next thought is to remove the existing formica. This one sounds like a lot of work and maybe we mess up the countertop? Any ideas? Brian K From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Jul 25 12:52:22 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:52:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Formica counter In-Reply-To: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> References: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <76880ABD04414FDF9EC124B1BAC79F94@EricJRussellPC> In the olden days it was common to nail/screw the substrate (plywood) down then glue the Formica on. Usually the cabinets/counter tops were all built in place. Now-a-days cabinets & counter tops are built off site, delivered and screwed together. Look carefully for any screws going up though the tops of the bottom cabinets - remove drawers and look up. If you don't find any then it is likely you are dealing with option one. Yes you can glue new plastic laminate (Formica is a brand) over the old. The unknown will be how good is the original bond between the Formica & substrate? If you are satisfied with the original glue bonds and the condition of the substrate then rough up the old Formica with sandpaper and have at it! Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kennedy" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 7:56 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Formica counter > We have a formica countertop that's at least 20 years old, probably more > like > 35 years. Near as we can tell, the countertop is glued down. No nice > little > brackets. We pried up a corner of the formica an don't see any screws or > nails > going in from the top, but that may be the case. > We're concerned that if we pull up the counter top, we'll damage the > cupboards > that are still in good shape. > We're thinking about going over the existing formica after re-gluing the > raised corners. Bad idea? > Next thought is to remove the existing formica. This one sounds like a lot > of > work and maybe we mess up the countertop? > Any ideas? > Brian K From pj_thomas at comcast.net Mon Jul 25 13:25:34 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:25:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Formica counter In-Reply-To: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> References: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E2DC32E.7020400@comcast.net> On 7/25/2011 7:56 AM, Brian Kennedy wrote: > We have a formica countertop that's at least 20 years old, probably more like > 35 years. Near as we can tell, the countertop is glued down. No nice little > brackets. We pried up a corner of the formica an don't see any screws or nails > going in from the top, but that may be the case. I doubt the sub-straight was nailed/screwed from the top and the laminated appied over that. The fasterners would telegraph though the formica. Most likely either screwed from the underneath and you haven't found them yet or it was caulked down. On an outside corner try driving a thin flexible mudding knife between the cabinet and the counter top. You'll find the fastener pretty quick or just cut away the caulk. > We're concerned that if we pull up the counter top, we'll damage the cupboards > that are still in good shape. > We're thinking about going over the existing formica after re-gluing the > raised corners. Bad idea? Better than re gluing is to use a clothes iron to reactive the original contact cement used to glue down the formica. Saw this on Ask This Old House and it really works. If you try to reglue it you'll never get it right. > Next thought is to remove the existing formica. This one sounds like a lot of > work and maybe we mess up the countertop? A clothes iron can also be used to remove old formica. Never refaced formica though I know you can apply a new layer or tile right over the old formica. You'll have to sand the old formica to give it some tooth. Problem see with this is you still have the 35 year old glue holding everything down. > Any ideas? > Brian K > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From gsteve at hammatt.com Mon Jul 25 15:22:22 2011 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:22:22 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. Message-ID: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> I have something similar to an old tractor engine. The specbs say the firing order should be 1, 3, 4, 2 but itbs currently running at 1, 2, 4, 3 Ibm possibly thinking that since the second and fourth cylinders are switched, it can run without backfiring, but is simply quite a bit down on power. The valve timing is very conservative. Any thoughts? And yes, Ibve visually checked the direction of the magnetobs rotor and itbs traveling in the 1, 2, 4, 3 direction. Am I just missing something here? ....or what does the knowledge bank think. Super thanks Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 15:33:30 2011 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:33:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Formica counter In-Reply-To: <76880ABD04414FDF9EC124B1BAC79F94@EricJRussellPC> References: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> <76880ABD04414FDF9EC124B1BAC79F94@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <4E2DE12A.3000004@gmail.com> Re-surfacing a laminate countertop is apparently trivial (I say apparently because I've never done it, but I've seen approximately 32,493 magazine articles and web sites about it). We wanted to tile over ours instead, which is also do-able. The part I never figured out satisfactorily was how to remove the back 'edging' from the existing countertop. And I have no idea how you deal with that if you want to re-surface it with laminate, either. Let me know if you find out? Oh, and if you want to re-surface yours, Fine Homebuilding has several write-ups of the process. I know you can buy back issues, or a CD of their entire archive. No financial interest, they're just the only place I'm sure that's covered it and has the information available. But I'll get Googling would get you there too. It actually seemed pretty simple. On 7/25/2011 2:52 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > In the olden days it was common to nail/screw the substrate (plywood) > down then glue the Formica on. Usually the cabinets/counter tops were > all built in place. > > Now-a-days cabinets & counter tops are built off site, delivered and > screwed together. Look carefully for any screws going up though the > tops of the bottom cabinets - remove drawers and look up. If you don't > find any then it is likely you are dealing with option one. > > Yes you can glue new plastic laminate (Formica is a brand) over the > old. The unknown will be how good is the original bond between the > Formica & substrate? If you are satisfied with the original glue bonds > and the condition of the substrate then rough up the old Formica with > sandpaper and have at it! From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Jul 25 15:58:54 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:58:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. In-Reply-To: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> References: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <54C89E36DC3047BE879B96267A402E69@EricJRussellPC> Re-arrange the plug wires for 1-3-4-2 and see if it runs better...! Are you certain you are observing the distributor's rotor rotation correctly? If the wires are correctly installed (1-3-4-2) but you count them 'backwards' you'll get 1-2-4-3. 1 2 3 4 Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:22 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. >I have something similar to an old tractor > engine. The specbs say the firing order should be > 1, 3, 4, 2 > but itbs currently running at > 1, 2, 4, 3 > > Ibm possibly thinking that since the > second and fourth cylinders are switched, > it can run without backfiring, but is simply > quite a bit down on power. The valve timing > is very conservative. Any thoughts? > And yes, Ibve visually checked the direction > of the magnetobs rotor and itbs traveling in the > 1, 2, 4, 3 direction. > > Am I just missing something here? ....or what > does the knowledge bank think. > > Super thanks > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Jul 25 17:01:34 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:01:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. In-Reply-To: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> References: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110725185838.04c0ad60@cox.net> At 05:22 PM 7/25/2011, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: >I have something similar to an old tractor engine. The spec's say the firing >order should be 1, 3, 4, 2 but it's currently running at 1, 2, 4, 3 In addition to what Eric said, have you checked to see where #1 really is? I've seen many an engine where the distributor has been installed wrong or is not where most engines have it - the rotor button pointing to #1 plug. Check to TDC on #1, then check to see that the rotor button is pointing to the wire that goes to the #1 plug, and not just pointing to #1 cylinder. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 17:14:23 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:14:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank In-Reply-To: References: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 6:44 AM, Brian Kennedy wrote: > I had an underground oil tank for few years in OR. Heating bills were going > out of sight, so I switched to a heat pump and had them fill the tank with > sand. I sold the pumped out oil to a friend of a friend. Fortunately, this one > didn't leak, but I did hear a horror story or two about what happens if they > do leak. Sure glad it's gone. It's generally not legal to do that. typical abondon in place procedure involves cutting large hole in the top, removing the sludge, steam cleaning, and then back filling. Plus lots of exploratory well drilling, to verify it didn't leak. It's almost always cheaper to remove it. Only exceptions are where someone's done something stupid, like build on top of it. Rules vary by state, and even if what you did was legal when you did, you may still have to remove it before you can sell, if the rules have changed (or you simply can't find a buyer who can get a mortgage for a property with potential liabilities for ground water pollution.) > Brian K > > On Jul 24, 2011, at 4:04 PM, Aric wrote: > >> Howdy all, and sorry for not paying attention when this topic went through > a >> couple months ago; I didn't realize we'd be buying a house or that it would >> have an underground oil tank. >> >> In a nutshell, I just found out yesterday that the house we're closing on > on >> Friday has a 1000 gallon underground tank of unknown (to me) age and can't >> for the life of me remember what the list had to say on the subject of >> underground tanks. B I recall something about old ones being potentially > very >> costly if they leak and that insurance for that sort of thing may or may > not >> be available. >> >> Mind refreshing my memory as to the gist of the earlier discussion? >> >> And for shop content, there's a dilapidated 30'x40' workshop on the > property >> that we'll be fixing up and putting a second floor on for storage space. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -aric. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Mon Jul 25 18:14:16 2011 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:14:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. In-Reply-To: <54C89E36DC3047BE879B96267A402E69@EricJRussellPC> References: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> <54C89E36DC3047BE879B96267A402E69@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <005901cc4b28$f60e9e70$e22bdb50$@cablespeed.com> I made this mistake once.... -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Eric J Russell Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:59 PM To: Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA; Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. Re-arrange the plug wires for 1-3-4-2 and see if it runs better...! Are you certain you are observing the distributor's rotor rotation correctly? If the wires are correctly installed (1-3-4-2) but you count them 'backwards' you'll get 1-2-4-3. 1 2 3 4 Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:22 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. >I have something similar to an old tractor > engine. The specbs say the firing order should be > 1, 3, 4, 2 > but itbs currently running at > 1, 2, 4, 3 > > Ibm possibly thinking that since the > second and fourth cylinders are switched, > it can run without backfiring, but is simply > quite a bit down on power. The valve timing > is very conservative. Any thoughts? > And yes, Ibve visually checked the direction > of the magnetobs rotor and itbs traveling in the > 1, 2, 4, 3 direction. > > Am I just missing something here? ....or what > does the knowledge bank think. > > Super thanks > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com From bk13 at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 18:26:19 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:26:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Formica counter In-Reply-To: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> References: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E2E09AB.1090305@earthlink.net> Brian - If the substrate is good, I see two options that don't require removing the counters. 1. There are counter companies that will come and cover your existing counter with a thin granite. The sample I saw looked to be about 3/8" think. They put an edge on it around front/sides so it looked normal counter thickness. Their advertisements say they install new counters in a day without a big mess. I'd call some stone places and see if they do that in your area. If there is a built in backsplash, I expect they just cut if off and make a new one slightly higher. 2. Tile over the counter. I was going to do this at my previous house, so remember where I saw the details. See http://www.ronhazelton.com/article/home/kitchens/UDI4Mg/How_to_Install_Tile_Over_a_Laminate_Counter_Top_ for a product that gets attached to the counter and then is covered by tile. Should you take out the counter, here is an example http://www.ronhazelton.com/article/home/kitchens/UDIwMg/P0061_How_to_Tile_a_Kitchen_Countertop_ where they put down backer board. (If the links don't work, go to http://www.ronhazelton.com and search for "tile countertop". They are the first two results. We sold the old house, so I didn't actually do this, but expect there are lots of links and stories on how it worked. Brian On 7/25/2011 4:56 AM, Brian Kennedy wrote: > We have a formica countertop that's at least 20 years old, probably more like > 35 years. Near as we can tell, the countertop is glued down. No nice little > brackets. We pried up a corner of the formica an don't see any screws or nails > going in from the top, but that may be the case. > We're concerned that if we pull up the counter top, we'll damage the cupboards > that are still in good shape. > We're thinking about going over the existing formica after re-gluing the > raised corners. Bad idea? > Next thought is to remove the existing formica. This one sounds like a lot of > work and maybe we mess up the countertop? > Any ideas? > Brian K > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From pat at hornesystemstx.com Mon Jul 25 18:34:39 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:34:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Formica counter In-Reply-To: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> References: <285C3CC2-3BD6-4471-B99C-3EE446B989E4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E2E0B9F.8020102@hornesystemstx.com> Brian, Old counter tops were generally put down with contact cement. As someone else mentioned, a hot iron may break it loose. Another way that works is to pry up corners and squirt lacquer thinner under the laminate. Lacquer thinner will dissolve the contact cement and not hurt the material underneath. Give it a try in a small area and see how well/fast it works. then make your decision. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Brian Kennedy, On 7/25/2011 6:56 AM: > We have a formica countertop that's at least 20 years old, probably more like > 35 years. Near as we can tell, the countertop is glued down. No nice little > brackets. We pried up a corner of the formica an don't see any screws or nails > going in from the top, but that may be the case. > We're concerned that if we pull up the counter top, we'll damage the cupboards > that are still in good shape. > We're thinking about going over the existing formica after re-gluing the > raised corners. Bad idea? > Next thought is to remove the existing formica. This one sounds like a lot of > work and maybe we mess up the countertop? > Any ideas? > Brian K > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From racertod at racertodd.com Mon Jul 25 18:38:00 2011 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:38:00 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. In-Reply-To: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110725172844.00c3ac18@mail.avvanta.com> Check the camshaft. That'll tell you the firing order. Rotate it in the normal direction until you're at TDC on cylinder 1. Both lobes on #1 will be facing up. Rotate it until the next pair of lobes are facing up. That's the next cylinder to fire. Repeat two more times and you'll have the firing order. As far as I know, 1-3-4-2 is the only firing order used for an inline-4 with a 180 degree crankshaft as it is the only firing order that results in primary balance. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 293,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 18:46:24 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:46:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20110725172844.00c3ac18@mail.avvanta.com> References: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> <5.1.0.14.2.20110725172844.00c3ac18@mail.avvanta.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Todd Walke wrote: > B B B B Check the camshaft. B That'll tell you the firing order. B Rotate it in > the normal direction until you're at TDC on cylinder 1. B Both lobes on #1 > will be facing up. B Rotate it until the next pair of lobes are facing up. > B That's the next cylinder to fire. B Repeat two more times and you'll have > the firing order. > B B B B As far as I know, 1-3-4-2 is the only firing order used for an > inline-4 with a 180 degree crankshaft as it is the only firing order that > results in primary balance. 1243 works just fine too. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From fishplate at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 18:57:32 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:57:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20110725172844.00c3ac18@mail.avvanta.com> References: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> <5.1.0.14.2.20110725172844.00c3ac18@mail.avvanta.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Todd Walke wrote: > Check the camshaft. That'll tell you the firing order. Rotate it in > the normal direction until you're at TDC on cylinder 1. Both lobes on #1 > will be facing up. Rotate it until the next pair of lobes are facing up. > That's the next cylinder to fire. Repeat two more times and you'll have > the firing order. To this I would add -- pay attention that after TDC on #1 (with both valves closed), the next valve to open is the exhaust valve. this will ensure that you are turning it in the right direction. Then proceed to identify the remaining cylinders in order. > As far as I know, 1-3-4-2 is the only firing order used for an > inline-4 with a 180 degree crankshaft as it is the only firing order that > results in primary balance. It's the most common, anyway. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From gsteve at hammatt.com Mon Jul 25 21:43:15 2011 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:43:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. (Solution) In-Reply-To: <005901cc4b28$f60e9e70$e22bdb50$@cablespeed.com> References: <482D55AEAB324E4C8BEC13DA9ED31CE6@DesktopPC> <54C89E36DC3047BE879B96267A402E69@EricJRussellPC> <005901cc4b28$f60e9e70$e22bdb50$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <68197425EA69483C8B1C1589B5673F0C@DesktopPC> OK, here's what we found out. While all indications pointed to the magneto going in the direction indicated, instead it internally changes direction and does go in the opposite direction (internally). So, everything is actually as it should be. Plus, I did switch the wiring to make it "correct" and it wouldn't fire. So, actually the problem was only imagined. Thanks! Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Brazil Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:14 PM To: 'Eric J Russell' ; 'Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA' ; 'Shop Talk' Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. I made this mistake once.... -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Eric J Russell Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:59 PM To: Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA; Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. Re-arrange the plug wires for 1-3-4-2 and see if it runs better...! Are you certain you are observing the distributor's rotor rotation correctly? If the wires are correctly installed (1-3-4-2) but you count them 'backwards' you'll get 1-2-4-3. 1 2 3 4 Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:22 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Firing order problems. >I have something similar to an old tractor > engine. The specbs say the firing order should be > 1, 3, 4, 2 > but itbs currently running at > 1, 2, 4, 3 > > Ibm possibly thinking that since the > second and fourth cylinders are switched, > it can run without backfiring, but is simply > quite a bit down on power. The valve timing > is very conservative. Any thoughts? > And yes, Ibve visually checked the direction > of the magnetobs rotor and itbs traveling in the > 1, 2, 4, 3 direction. > > Am I just missing something here? ....or what > does the knowledge bank think. > > Super thanks > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com From rbeels at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 23:42:22 2011 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:42:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor In-Reply-To: <0901E642954349DE830869BFBA2966EB@Tablet> References: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> <0901E642954349DE830869BFBA2966EB@Tablet> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20110726013448.069e1a10@yahoo.com> The problem is the initial setting with the steel spring "fingers in the first station. Fit the drill in the holder and adjust it so it slides, but with some friction. Loose enough so you can slide it back and forth by hand but not enough that it will fall out if you tip it vertical. Spread the steel fingers and insert the holder into the first station. Make sure the tip of the drill "bottoms out" in the station and then rotate the drill. As you rotate it, the fingers will slide over the circumference of the drill until the fingers "snap" into place - brain fart so I can't think of the proper terminology but the fingers will end up going from ridge to ridge. Tighten the holder to grip the drill securely and then remove from the station. Now, you can sharpen. Take nibbles rather than bites - it's not a race. To do the splits does take some practice. At 07/24/11 at 20:52, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Aric's keyboard and said: >Finally! A topic I can help with!!! > >I picked up a 750x a couple years back and I'm still undecided about it. >Sometimes it puts a great point on, other times it puts a left hand relief >on a right hand drill. Apparently it's a result of improper timing of the >drill in the holder, but damned if I can figure out what I'm doing wrong >(since it'll do it wrong 3 times in a row and then correctly, all without me >changing a thing). Small drills can be a pain due to being shorter than the >collet and I have yet to figure out how to use it to touch up the point on >centerdrills. I also haven't yet figured out how to properly touch up >135deg split point carbide drills with it, or parabolic for that matter. >That said, it usually works just fine for regular drills and I'll usually at >least give it a try before heading over to the grinder to do it by hand. Cheers! From kennedybc at comcast.net Tue Jul 26 05:16:55 2011 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 04:16:55 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank In-Reply-To: References: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> Message-ID: Interesting. Actually, it is under a deck. They did pump it out, but I'm not sure how much sludge they removed. It had been inspected earlier for leakage. I'm not sure what they did to determine there was no leakage. You'd surely want to check the local laws. I agree that in the long term, removing it is the better thing to do. I think that was offered as an option, but the cost of replacing the deck led us to Plan B. Brian K On Jul 25, 2011, at 4:14 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 6:44 AM, Brian Kennedy wrote: >> I had an underground oil tank for few years in OR. Heating bills were going >> out of sight, so I switched to a heat pump and had them fill the tank with >> sand. I sold the pumped out oil to a friend of a friend. Fortunately, this one >> didn't leak, but I did hear a horror story or two about what happens if they >> do leak. Sure glad it's gone. > > It's generally not legal to do that. typical abondon in place > procedure involves cutting large hole in the top, removing the sludge, > steam cleaning, and then back filling. Plus lots of exploratory well > drilling, to verify it didn't leak. It's almost always cheaper to > remove it. Only exceptions are where someone's done something > stupid, like build on top of it. Rules vary by state, and even if > what you did was legal when you did, you may still have to remove it > before you can sell, if the rules have changed (or you simply can't > find a buyer who can get a mortgage for a property with potential > liabilities for ground water pollution.) > >> Brian K >> >> On Jul 24, 2011, at 4:04 PM, Aric wrote: >> >>> Howdy all, and sorry for not paying attention when this topic went through >> a >>> couple months ago; I didn't realize we'd be buying a house or that it would >>> have an underground oil tank. >>> >>> In a nutshell, I just found out yesterday that the house we're closing on >> on >>> Friday has a 1000 gallon underground tank of unknown (to me) age and can't >>> for the life of me remember what the list had to say on the subject of >>> underground tanks. I recall something about old ones being potentially >> very >>> costly if they leak and that insurance for that sort of thing may or may >> not >>> be available. >>> >>> Mind refreshing my memory as to the gist of the earlier discussion? >>> >>> And for shop content, there's a dilapidated 30'x40' workshop on the >> property >>> that we'll be fixing up and putting a second floor on for storage space. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -aric. >> ___ >> > > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com From eric at megageek.com Thu Jul 28 16:03:55 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 18:03:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor In-Reply-To: <000301cc4a5c$246f43a0$6d4dcae0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: I got one and does work. Make sure you watch the DVD a few times to learn how to use it. For that price, I would buy it. I paid just over $110 for mine and I'm content with the purchase and it gets used every now and then. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "Karl Vacek" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 07/24/2011 07:31 PM Please respond to KVacek at Ameritech.net To cc Subject [Shop-talk] Drill Doctor After having sharpened drills freehand all my life, a couple of days ago I finally decided I needed to look at a Drill Doctor. Just not as steady and patient as I once thought I was. I had half an hour to spend at Sears this afternoon and lo and behold, they had a Drill Doctor 750X on the closeout cart for $75. Apparently complete, apparently unused, just an opened box return. I bought it - even Amazon gets nearly $140 for it. Before I use it and it's all mine like it or not, anyone have any experience with them? Are they accurate and worth it? Any problems? TIA Karl Pilots - Looking down on people since 1903 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From cavanadd at frontier.com Thu Jul 28 21:48:33 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 20:48:33 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to glue concrete? Message-ID: <4E322D91.8020600@frontier.com> A while back my wife had (more or less) decorative curbing installed around the driveway, shrubbery beds and the back yard. A couple of weeks ago we had a contractor in to do some dirt work and he drove a rubber tracked mini excavator across part of the curbing and some of the face spalled off. I still have all the pieces, but what do I use to bond it all back together? From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Thu Jul 28 16:09:57 2011 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 18:09:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] New house / underground oil tank In-Reply-To: References: <2FFB96FE58574D118D2B58807607F80D@Tablet> Message-ID: I just went through the same situation and it looks like everyone has offered the advice I would give, so I'll just summarize my experience. The contract of sale was written on the condition that the tank was removed and remediated, as necessary to receive state approval as clean. We were supposed to close on June 1st, but the tank had some rust spots and showed signs of leakage. After removing about 1000 cubic feet of earth and retesting, we now have the state certification that it is clean. Data points: $11,000 in total costs to seller (and insurance), two months to remediate, and the mortgage company & State Farm both wanted to see the final state certification. - Ian From darrellw at ipns.com Thu Jul 28 22:30:58 2011 From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:30:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to glue concrete? In-Reply-To: <4E322D91.8020600@frontier.com> References: <4E322D91.8020600@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2011, at 8:48 PM, David C. wrote: > A while back my wife had (more or less) decorative curbing installed around the driveway, shrubbery beds and the back yard. A couple of weeks ago we had a contractor in to do some dirt work and he drove a rubber tracked mini excavator across part of the curbing and some of the face spalled off. I still have all the pieces, but what do I use to bond it all back together? I've used concrete block adhesive for similar repairs: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/pl_ca_lndscp_voc/overview/Loctite-PL-Landsca pe-Block-Adhesive-Low-VOC.htm It won't be as strong as it was originally, and the seam will probably be visible. -Darrell From tputland at charter.net Fri Jul 29 05:57:53 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] How to glue concrete? Message-ID: <2d6ba61b.129c76.13175c201c2.Webtop.46@charter.net> Do you have any recourse to get the contractor to do the fixing since he did the breaking? On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:48 PM, David C. wrote: > A while back my wife had (more or less) decorative curbing installed > around the driveway, shrubbery beds and the back yard. A couple of > weeks ago we had a contractor in to do some dirt work and he drove a > rubber tracked mini excavator across part of the curbing and some of > the face spalled off. I still have all the pieces, but what do I use > to bond it all back together? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Jul 29 08:01:38 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 10:01:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to glue concrete? In-Reply-To: <4E322D91.8020600@frontier.com> References: <4E322D91.8020600@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4E32BD42.2080007@comcast.net> On 7/28/2011 11:48 PM, David C. wrote: > A while back my wife had (more or less) decorative curbing installed > around the driveway, shrubbery beds and the back yard. A couple of > weeks ago we had a contractor in to do some dirt work and he drove a > rubber tracked mini excavator across part of the curbing and some of > the face spalled off. I still have all the pieces, but what do I use > to bond it all back together? Thinset mortar, like used to install tile. Coat both surfaces and let it ooze out. Come back a couple of hours later with a stiff brush and clean off the excess. What ever you use, make sure the gap is completely filled or frost will separate it. Peter T. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Jul 29 08:40:30 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 10:40:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to glue concrete? In-Reply-To: <4E32BD42.2080007@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20110729144030.4XOG6.67287.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> Thinset sounds like a good idea for easy installation, as long as it is rated for exterior use. Professionals use epoxy for concrete repair and there are a lot of different types and ways to use them. What I see most often is a clear liquid epoxy that is injected under pressure into cracks, but preparation for this work involves applying injection ports and plugging the outsides of cracks using a more opaque epoxy that is probably more of a paste. I think epoxy would really be a pain for the type of repair mentioned here. That loctite product mentioned earlier might be an easy solution too. It looks like you put it in a caulking gun and have at it. The loctite page also mentions a polyurethane sealer that could probably be used. Urethanes are typically not sold for home use because of the additional precautions that they require but they really arent hard to use, just harder to clean up. For that matter you might be able to stick the pieces back together with common silicon caulk. I've even bonded to concrete with normal wood glue, so of course YMMV. And yes if water gets in the crack and freezes it will separate the pieces. Some years ago my wife had a concrete bird bath that broke. This is the kind with a concrete column that varies about 4" to 6" in diameter, plus a concrete bowl that sets on top. Somehow it fell over and the column broke in half. I used masking tape around the ends of each piece to protect the surface, following the joint edge carefully. I bought a package of normal epoxy at the store, the kind where the epoxy mixes and comes out of one hole. I coated one surface with the epoxy, placed the other piece on top of it, and wiped off what epoxy squeezed out. When it cured a little bit I peeled off the tape. There is a thin line visible where the joint was but it doesn't detract from the appearance of the thing. > > A while back my wife had (more or less) decorative curbing installed > > around the driveway, shrubbery beds and the back yard. A couple of > > weeks ago we had a contractor in to do some dirt work and he drove a > > rubber tracked mini excavator across part of the curbing and some of > > the face spalled off. I still have all the pieces, but what do I use > > to bond it all back together? > Thinset mortar, like used to install tile. Coat both surfaces and let it > ooze out. Come back a couple of hours later with a stiff brush and > clean off the excess. > > What ever you use, make sure the gap is completely filled or frost will > separate it. From bk13 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 21:37:10 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 20:37:10 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to glue concrete? In-Reply-To: <4E322D91.8020600@frontier.com> References: <4E322D91.8020600@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4E337C66.1050101@earthlink.net> I glued some broken brick with DAP 10.1 oz. Watertight Concrete Filler and Sealant, SKU # 284733, $3.97 at Home Depot in the caulk area. I wanted something thin like glue or caulk so the brick fracture wouldn't stand out like using a mortar. I bought it to fill a gap and stop water infiltration and it worked great for that as well. Brian On 7/28/2011 8:48 PM, David C. wrote: > A while back my wife had (more or less) decorative curbing installed > around the driveway, shrubbery beds and the back yard. A couple of > weeks ago we had a contractor in to do some dirt work and he drove a > rubber tracked mini excavator across part of the curbing and some of > the face spalled off. I still have all the pieces, but what do I use > to bond it all back together? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Sun Jul 31 12:20:55 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:20:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to glue concrete? In-Reply-To: <20110729144030.4XOG6.67287.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> References: <20110729144030.4XOG6.67287.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> Message-ID: <4E359D07.8020706@comcast.net> On 7/29/2011 10:40 AM, bjshov8 at tx.rr.com wrote: > Thinset sounds like a good idea for easy installation, as long as it is rated for exterior use. Professionals use epoxy for concrete repair and there are a lot of different types and ways to use them. What I see most often is a clear liquid epoxy that is injected under pressure into cracks, but preparation for this work involves applying injection ports and plugging the outsides of cracks using a more opaque epoxy that is probably more of a paste. I think epoxy would really be a pain for the type of repair mentioned here. > > That loctite product mentioned earlier might be an easy solution too. It looks like you put it in a caulking gun and have at it. The loctite page also mentions a polyurethane sealer that could probably be used. Urethanes are typically not sold for home use because of the additional precautions that they require but they really arent hard to use, just harder to clean up. For that matter you might be able to stick the pieces back together with common silicon caulk. I've even bonded to concrete with normal wood glue, so of course YMMV. And yes if water gets in the crack and freezes it will separate the pieces. > > Some years ago my wife had a concrete bird bath that broke. This is the kind with a concrete column that varies about 4" to 6" in diameter, plus a concrete bowl that sets on top. Somehow it fell over and the column broke in half. I used masking tape around the ends of each piece to protect the surface, following the joint edge carefully. I bought a package of normal epoxy at the store, the kind where the epoxy mixes and comes out of one hole. I coated one surface with the epoxy, placed the other piece on top of it, and wiped off what epoxy squeezed out. When it cured a little bit I peeled off the tape. There is a thin line visible where the joint was but it doesn't detract from the appearance of the thing. If I understand the original question it was about flakes that need to be reattached to concrete exposed to the sun and elements. Any adhesive would have different thermal expansion rates the concrete. The chips would heat up in the sun faster than the rest of the concrete. So you need a thick layer of flexible adhesive. Thin set mortar on the other hand is basically concrete without the aggregate and with some lime. Mortar has the same expasion rate as concrete and only varies by the aggregate. Buttering both surfaces and squeezing out most of the the mortar would have a thin gap that would blend into the concrete over time. Since mortar and the concrete are basically the same material, the chips would be reintegrated rather than attached. Just some thoughts. Peter T > > > >>> A while back my wife had (more or less) decorative curbing installed >>> around the driveway, shrubbery beds and the back yard. A couple of >>> weeks ago we had a contractor in to do some dirt work and he drove a >>> rubber tracked mini excavator across part of the curbing and some of >>> the face spalled off. I still have all the pieces, but what do I use >>> to bond it all back together? >> Thinset mortar, like used to install tile. Coat both surfaces and let it >> ooze out. Come back a couple of hours later with a stiff brush and >> clean off the excess. >> >> What ever you use, make sure the gap is completely filled or frost will >> separate it. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net