From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Feb 1 03:08:04 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 05:08:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable garage heater In-Reply-To: <000001cbc1c3$10a826b0$31f87410$@ameritech.net> References: <000001cbc1c3$10a826b0$31f87410$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <4D47DB84.3070801@xxiii.com> On 1/31/2011 10:49 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > I have a Reddy Heater, made by DESA, same as Mr. Heater. It's a propane > torpedo heater, I think 75,000 to 125,000 btu. FWIW, DESA went out of business a couple years ago. Not sure who makes Mr. Heater (the same guys that make Mr. Plow?) Their quality was spotty in my experience, but they did have decent parts and support. I'm gonna guess with 400 sq-ft uninsulated detached you need every bit of 75k btu. Karl is right about the heat blast. Mine will melt Pb/Sn solder dangled a foot in front of it. NEver burned any skin or clothes though. -Wayne From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 07:15:17 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:15:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable garage heater In-Reply-To: <4D47DB84.3070801@xxiii.com> References: <000001cbc1c3$10a826b0$31f87410$@ameritech.net> <4D47DB84.3070801@xxiii.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Wayne wrote: > On 1/31/2011 10:49 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: >> >> I have a Reddy Heater, made by DESA, same as Mr. Heater. B It's a propane >> torpedo heater, I think 75,000 to 125,000 btu. > > FWIW, DESA went out of business a couple years ago. B Not sure who makes Mr. > Heater (the same guys that make Mr. Plow?) B Their quality was spotty in my > experience, but they did have decent parts and support. > > I'm gonna guess with 400 sq-ft uninsulated detached you need every bit of > 75k btu. We've got a bit more than that, 25X40ish, with 30 ft at the roof peak. It's completely uninsulated (well, the overhead doors are insulated) and unfinished (exterior walls are 3/8" (maybe 1/2) ply wood; there are no interior walls.). A 30K BTU Mr Heater propane heater will, given time, warm the place up. I did the timing belt on a car last winter when it was just above zero. It wasn't pleasant, but I could keep the whole space at 40F, with the area in front of the heater quite a bit warmer. (Tip: keep your tools in that space...) 50K would be nicer. I run it off a 40 lb tank. a 20 lb tank won't keep up, and once it hits half-empty it gets worse. You can get manifolds that let you attach more than one tank to hte same appliance, which helps some. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From pethier at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 09:51:09 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 16:51:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable garage heater In-Reply-To: <575067634.166864.1296578970499.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <991379603.167051.1296579069515.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> > From: "Wayne" > Karl is right about the heat blast. Mine will melt Pb/Sn solder > dangled > a foot in front of it. NEver burned any skin or clothes though. Charred the wooden bumper on my SAAB ice racer once. One night I had a brain face and stooped to replace the hubcap that had fallen off one of the heater's wheels. The heater had just been turned off. I put my hand on the top of the heater to get up. This was the second-nastiest burn I have received, second only to the time I grabbed a BMW 250 exhuast pipe while looking for the kickstand in the dark. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From eric at megageek.com Wed Feb 2 15:50:20 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 17:50:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Duallie snow chains, follow up. Message-ID: If you remember I asked about chains for a duellie truck I have. Well I ordered the chains and they got here. I put them on and here is the results so far... Chains go on easy and because of a cam on them, they don't need additional side tensioners. Today we had a massive ice storm in NJ (over an inch of ice!) I plowed exclusively with the truck today without problems. The truck is a 3500 rear wheel drive only. There is a mason dump bed on the back, but nothing is in it. Here is the link to the chains I got and the place I got them from... http://www.tirechainsrequired.com/Shopping/shopexd.asp?id=4536 They aren't cheap, but you really are getting two pairs of chains for the price. I can recommend this company as a result of this purchase. Note, I still don't know how well they will do on pure snow yet however. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From jamesf at groupwbench.org Wed Feb 2 17:07:06 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:07:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Comparing kerosene & electric shop heater costs Message-ID: Since my tools are rusty enough, I'm thinking of using electric heaters in the garage. Can someone confirm my math here? Kerosene is about 135,000 BTU per gallon. Running a 45,000 BTU heater for 3 hours = $4 or so. Running a 45000 BTU electric heater uses 13Kw, for 3 hours at my 12 cents/Kw = $4.68. So neglecting infrastructure costs, it'd be about even....right? Neat site: http://www.ultimategarageheater.com/garage-heater-calculator.php From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Feb 2 17:52:59 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 16:52:59 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Comparing kerosene & electric shop heater costs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> > Can someone confirm my math here? Math seems pretty close, although I got $4.75 for electricity; and my marginal electricity rate is a lot higher than $.12/kwh even though the average rate is only a little higher than that. However, kerosene seems kind of expensive, considering that I can buy gasoline (including road tax) for about $3. Is fuel oil any cheaper? You might also want to take a peek at those infrastructure costs, especially if you only plan to run the heat for a few days a year. Your electric service might have an spare 60 amps of capacity, but mine doesn't; and the cost to upgrade will buy a whole lotta propane. Having a bigger service might also affect the minimum price during summer months (if you don't have AC). The water problem can also be eliminated by using a vented heater (which is the only kind allowed here, if the shop is attached to a residence). But of course that also lowers the efficiency. -- Randall From bk13 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 2 19:29:02 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 18:29:02 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Comparing kerosene & electric shop heater costs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4A12EE.9050700@earthlink.net> Gotta love that cheap electricity. Out here in the Los Angeles area, So Cal Edison has us on a tiered rate structure and we start at 13 cents/kWh for our "baseline allowance". Apparently the public utilities commission thinks all we need is 298 kWh per month. Use more and the rates go up to the 31 cents per kWh we paid last month for the top tier. Running your heater for under 1 hour a day out here would bust that baseline. Fortunately it's been in the 60's and sunny. Brian On 2/2/2011 4:07 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > Since my tools are rusty enough, I'm thinking of using electric heaters in the > garage. Can someone confirm my math here? > > Kerosene is about 135,000 BTU per gallon. Running a 45,000 BTU heater for 3 > hours = $4 or so. > > Running a 45000 BTU electric heater uses 13Kw, for 3 hours at my 12 cents/Kw = > $4.68. > > So neglecting infrastructure costs, it'd be about even....right? > > Neat site: > http://www.ultimategarageheater.com/garage-heater-calculator.php > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From jamesf at groupwbench.org Thu Feb 3 06:51:20 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:51:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Comparing kerosene & electric shop heater costs In-Reply-To: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Randall wrote: >> > Is fuel oil any cheaper? Well if I take a jug to the station I can get it for $3.50, but I was being conservative for my precision, which was an order of magnitude :-) Just didn't think a heater that beefy would be so cheap to run. And as Brian pointed out I didn't take into account any tiered rating. It was mostly an academic exercise. > > You might also want to take a peek at those infrastructure costs, especially > Yea, there's no way this house will handle that. But trade current for time and eventually it'd fit. > > The water problem can also be eliminated by using a vented heater (which is > the only kind allowed here, if the shop is attached to a residence). But of > course that also lowers the efficiency. Hmmm..... From shiples at comcast.net Fri Feb 4 16:49:18 2011 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:49:18 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> Why DOESNT ice float. I just had a burger, fries, and a mug of root beer at the local A&W. I was given a chilled glass mug and I poured my own drink. I got the ice from the soft drink dispensor, but the root beer came from a separate tap that looked similar to a beer tap in a tavern. So I'm seated and looking at my beverage and I can't see the ice. With closer investigation, I can see that the ice has settled to the bottom of the mug. As I drink the root beer the ice appears and it isn't stuck to the bottom and moves freely. So I come home, fire up the Google and learn that ice floats in water because ice is less dense than water. My current guess is that my observations are faulty or that A&W root beer doesn't have much water in it. Is there anyone out there who might be able to add some information or help me design an experiment to determine what is going on? I'm headed out to the shop to adjust the last valve on a 351W. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Feb 4 20:56:26 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 22:56:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> On 2/4/2011 6:49 PM, Steve Shipley wrote: > Why DOESNT ice float. > I just had a burger, fries, and a mug of root beer at the local A&W. I was > given a chilled glass mug and I poured my own drink. I got the ice from > the soft drink dispensor, but the root beer came from a separate tap that > looked similar to a beer tap in a tavern. That's weird. My first thought was the sugar solution changed the density allowing it, but I realized that makes things even more buoyant. I tried heating some water and mixing in sugar. Ice cubes were visibly more buoyant and popped to the surface faster when dropped in. Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be lower density. There are many different structures (aletropes??) of ice crystals, and some are actually higher density than water, and shrink when frozen. But they have to be made under precise temps and pressures. Curious to hear what you figure out. -Wayne From mark at bradakis.com Fri Feb 4 21:19:42 2011 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 21:19:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D4CCFDE.4030800@bradakis.com> Steve Shipley wrote: > My current guess is that my observations are faulty or that A&W root beer > doesn't have much water in it. > It has water in it, but the frothiness from the carbonation makes the water, flavorings and froth mixture less dense than the ice. At least that's my guess. mjb. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Feb 4 21:33:42 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 23:33:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Comparing kerosene & electric shop heater costs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4CD326.2040109@xxiii.com> On 2/2/2011 7:07 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > Since my tools are rusty enough, I'm thinking of using electric heaters in the > garage. Can someone confirm my math here? Sounds like you've already got a good handle on it. But you might have a look at this document, starting around page 9: http://geoheat.oit.edu/ghp/survival.pdf It calculates the cost of producing a mega-BTU of heat from various sources. Sounds like kerosene is similar to fuel oil in energy content. For any combustion source, there is a fixed maximum chemical heat yield. Subtract for combustion inefficiency (ie: not quite stoich') and heat lost through the chimney or vent and you have a rough idea what it costs. For electricity, a given KWH is exactly 3413 BTU. It's usually 100% efficient, since all the heat goes into the mass you're attempting to heat. So when I got ticked off at the cost of propane for water heating, I used the local $2.37/gal for propane and $0.080/KWh for electricity. Electric comes out to $23.57. Propane, using 82% efficiency = 32.81. Propane would have to be <= $1.74/gal to break even with electric. The propane guys also want an annual tank rental fee and bogus surcharges. Have to figure all that in too to be 100% HTH, -Wayne From mark at nashvilletn.org Fri Feb 4 21:35:18 2011 From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 22:35:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <80D7E797D7844B4EAFAC7B620EFAA39B@Dell9200> Perhaps there was enough CO2 in the Root Beer being released that the fluid couldn't support the ice. Don't you know you are not supposed to put ice in Root Beer anyway:) Mark Nashville ----- Original Message ----- On 2/4/2011 6:49 PM, Steve Shipley wrote: > Why DOESNT ice float. > I just had a burger, fries, and a mug of root beer at the local A&W. I > was > given a chilled glass mug and I poured my own drink. I got the ice from > the soft drink dispensor, but the root beer came from a separate tap that > looked similar to a beer tap in a tavern. That's weird. My first thought was the sugar solution changed the density allowing it, but I realized that makes things even more buoyant. I tried heating some water and mixing in sugar. Ice cubes were visibly more buoyant and popped to the surface faster when dropped in. Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be lower density. There are many different structures (aletropes??) of ice crystals, and some are actually higher density than water, and shrink when frozen. But they have to be made under precise temps and pressures. Curious to hear what you figure out. -Wayne _______________________________________________ From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Feb 4 21:48:52 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 20:48:52 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> > Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be > lower density. Nope, corn syrup is also higher density than water. In fact, normal ice does float on normal root beer (I worked for awhile as a soda jerk many years ago). So I'm also at a loss to explain what Steve saw; unless perhaps the ice was stuck to the glass and only came free after the level had dropped. Used to be that A&W would store their glass mugs in the freezer, so when they added root beer, the cold mug would actually freeze water out of the root beer onto the glass. But I thought they quit doing that a long time ago (shortly before I stopped buying root beer there). -- Randall From pj_thomas at comcast.net Sat Feb 5 07:41:43 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 09:41:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <80D7E797D7844B4EAFAC7B620EFAA39B@Dell9200> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <80D7E797D7844B4EAFAC7B620EFAA39B@Dell9200> Message-ID: <4D4D61A7.2040201@comcast.net> On 2/4/2011 11:35 PM, Mark wrote: > Perhaps there was enough CO2 in the Root Beer being released that the fluid > couldn't support the ice. Don't you know you are not supposed to put ice in > Root Beer anyway:) My vote/guess. The thickness of the root beer, which allows a nice head to form, keeps the CO2 bubbles suspended lowering the density of the liquid. Don't know if its confirmed, but gas released from sea floor hydrates are supposed to sink boats. You might be able to reproduce this at home using a really stout ale. Peter T. > Mark > Nashville > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > On 2/4/2011 6:49 PM, Steve Shipley wrote: >> Why DOESNT ice float. >> I just had a burger, fries, and a mug of root beer at the local A&W. I >> was >> given a chilled glass mug and I poured my own drink. I got the ice from >> the soft drink dispensor, but the root beer came from a separate tap that >> looked similar to a beer tap in a tavern. > That's weird. My first thought was the sugar solution changed the > density allowing it, but I realized that makes things even more buoyant. > I tried heating some water and mixing in sugar. Ice cubes were > visibly more buoyant and popped to the surface faster when dropped in. > > Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be lower density. > > There are many different structures (aletropes??) of ice crystals, and > some are actually higher density than water, and shrink when frozen. > But they have to be made under precise temps and pressures. > > Curious to hear what you figure out. > > -Wayne > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sat Feb 5 08:54:26 2011 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 10:54:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <001501cbc54c$f86b9ea0$e942dbe0$@cablespeed.com> Hmmmm, you don't suppose this mug was made by the Mason Jar Company do you? ;-) From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sat Feb 5 10:14:24 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 11:14:24 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <4D4D61A7.2040201@comcast.net> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <80D7E797D7844B4EAFAC7B620EFAA39B@Dell9200> <4D4D61A7.2040201@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D4D8570.2060107@hornesystemstx.com> Now there ya go, ruining a perfectly good ale by diluting it! I guess if you do the test fast the ice won't melt too much. Now the question becomes what do you do with the ale? Peace, Pat Thusly spake Peter J. Thomas, On 2/5/2011 8:41 AM: > On 2/4/2011 11:35 PM, Mark wrote: >> Perhaps there was enough CO2 in the Root Beer being released that the >> fluid >> couldn't support the ice. Don't you know you are not supposed to put >> ice in >> Root Beer anyway:) > My vote/guess. The thickness of the root beer, which allows a nice > head to form, keeps the CO2 bubbles suspended lowering the density of > the liquid. Don't know if its confirmed, but gas released from sea > floor hydrates are supposed to sink boats. > > You might be able to reproduce this at home using a really stout ale. > > Peter T. >> Mark >> Nashville >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> On 2/4/2011 6:49 PM, Steve Shipley wrote: >>> Why DOESNT ice float. >>> I just had a burger, fries, and a mug of root beer at the local A&W. I >>> was >>> given a chilled glass mug and I poured my own drink. I got the ice >>> from >>> the soft drink dispensor, but the root beer came from a separate tap >>> that >>> looked similar to a beer tap in a tavern. >> That's weird. My first thought was the sugar solution changed the >> density allowing it, but I realized that makes things even more buoyant. >> I tried heating some water and mixing in sugar. Ice cubes were >> visibly more buoyant and popped to the surface faster when dropped in. >> >> Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be lower >> density. >> >> There are many different structures (aletropes??) of ice crystals, and >> some are actually higher density than water, and shrink when frozen. >> But they have to be made under precise temps and pressures. >> >> Curious to hear what you figure out. >> >> -Wayne >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sat Feb 5 10:16:29 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 11:16:29 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D4D85ED.2010301@hornesystemstx.com> You might want to try this test again, just to see if it was a one time event. I'm betting that the ice was stuck to start with, then got broken loose when you got to the bottom. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Steve Shipley, On 2/4/2011 5:49 PM: > Why DOESNT ice float. > > I just had a burger, fries, and a mug of root beer at the local A&W. I was > given a chilled glass mug and I poured my own drink. I got the ice from > the soft drink dispensor, but the root beer came from a separate tap that > looked similar to a beer tap in a tavern. > > So I'm seated and looking at my beverage and I can't see the ice. With > closer investigation, I can see that the ice has settled to the bottom of > the mug. As I drink the root beer the ice appears and it isn't stuck to > the bottom and moves freely. > > So I come home, fire up the Google and learn that ice floats in water > because ice is less dense than water. > > My current guess is that my observations are faulty or that A&W root beer > doesn't have much water in it. Is there anyone out there who might be able > to add some information or help me design an experiment to determine what > is going on? I'm headed out to the shop to adjust the last valve on a 351W. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From koblinger at verizon.net Sat Feb 5 10:24:58 2011 From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 09:24:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> Maybe the ice was made with heavy water? What? Right, back to my corner...... Kurt O. On 2/4/2011 8:48 PM, Randall wrote: >> Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be >> lower density. > Nope, corn syrup is also higher density than water. > > In fact, normal ice does float on normal root beer (I worked for awhile as a > soda jerk many years ago). So I'm also at a loss to explain what Steve saw; > unless perhaps the ice was stuck to the glass and only came free after the > level had dropped. > > Used to be that A&W would store their glass mugs in the freezer, so when > they added root beer, the cold mug would actually freeze water out of the > root beer onto the glass. But I thought they quit doing that a long time > ago (shortly before I stopped buying root beer there). > > -- Randall From strovato at optonline.net Sat Feb 5 11:07:38 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:07:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0LG500GT8P414230@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> You know, that's works. http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2006-07/ice-capades Though in this case, I'm going with the ice stuck to the glass theory. -Steve At 12:24 PM 2/5/2011, Kurt Oblinger wrote: >Maybe the ice was made with heavy water? > >What? >Right, back to my corner...... > >Kurt O. > >On 2/4/2011 8:48 PM, Randall wrote: >>>Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be >>>lower density. >>Nope, corn syrup is also higher density than water. >> >>In fact, normal ice does float on normal root beer (I worked for awhile as a >>soda jerk many years ago). So I'm also at a loss to explain what Steve saw; >>unless perhaps the ice was stuck to the glass and only came free after the >>level had dropped. >> >>Used to be that A&W would store their glass mugs in the freezer, so when >>they added root beer, the cold mug would actually freeze water out of the >>root beer onto the glass. But I thought they quit doing that a long time >>ago (shortly before I stopped buying root beer there). >> >>-- Randall >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Sat Feb 5 11:12:58 2011 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:12:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <4D4D8570.2060107@hornesystemstx.com> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <80D7E797D7844B4EAFAC7B620EFAA39B@Dell9200> <4D4D61A7.2040201@comcast.net> <4D4D8570.2060107@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <4D4D932A.8040905@comcast.net> On 2/5/2011 12:14 PM, Pat Horne wrote: > Now there ya go, ruining a perfectly good ale by diluting it! I guess > if you do the test fast the ice won't melt too much. Now the question > becomes what do you do with the ale? > > Peace, > Pat Since all experiements must be repeatable, probably ruin a whole 6 pack. But after two you probably won't notice or care. Peter T. > > Thusly spake Peter J. Thomas, On 2/5/2011 8:41 AM: >> On 2/4/2011 11:35 PM, Mark wrote: >>> Perhaps there was enough CO2 in the Root Beer being released that >>> the fluid >>> couldn't support the ice. Don't you know you are not supposed to >>> put ice in >>> Root Beer anyway:) >> My vote/guess. The thickness of the root beer, which allows a nice >> head to form, keeps the CO2 bubbles suspended lowering the density of >> the liquid. Don't know if its confirmed, but gas released from sea >> floor hydrates are supposed to sink boats. >> >> You might be able to reproduce this at home using a really stout ale. >> >> Peter T. >>> Mark >>> Nashville >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> On 2/4/2011 6:49 PM, Steve Shipley wrote: >>>> Why DOESNT ice float. >>>> I just had a burger, fries, and a mug of root beer at the local >>>> A&W. I >>>> was >>>> given a chilled glass mug and I poured my own drink. I got the ice >>>> from >>>> the soft drink dispensor, but the root beer came from a separate >>>> tap that >>>> looked similar to a beer tap in a tavern. >>> That's weird. My first thought was the sugar solution changed the >>> density allowing it, but I realized that makes things even more >>> buoyant. >>> I tried heating some water and mixing in sugar. Ice cubes were >>> visibly more buoyant and popped to the surface faster when dropped in. >>> >>> Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be lower >>> density. >>> >>> There are many different structures (aletropes??) of ice crystals, and >>> some are actually higher density than water, and shrink when frozen. >>> But they have to be made under precise temps and pressures. >>> >>> Curious to hear what you figure out. >>> >>> -Wayne >>> _______________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >>> Unsubscribe/Manage: >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com From shiples at comcast.net Sat Feb 5 11:30:58 2011 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 10:30:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> References: <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20110205100236.03b51db8@mail.comcast.net> At 09:24 AM 2/5/2011 -0800, Kurt Oblinger wrote: >Maybe the ice was made with heavy water? Thanks to all who replied. I'm still shaking my head. But I think the possibilities are covered. The mug did come out of the freezer so it is possible that changed the rootbeer. I had wondered if carbonization was a factor. I'll go back next week and see if I can reproduce the result. If the ice sinks in the frosted mug, I'll get another in the standard paper cup. Uh oh, I'm starting to see all the combinations... Where are those damn Mythbusters when you need 'em? From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Feb 5 12:17:12 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 13:17:12 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] shower door install Message-ID: I've got a standard fiberglass shower that is 44" wide and 30" deep. The door is a metal framed glass door with a side panel of fixed glass. I want to replace the door with something a little more current. All I see now are frameless doors connected to tile walls. Can you attach a frameless door to the fiberglass walls of the shower unit ?? what anchors are needed ?? or is a framed unit my only choice. thanks John I've learned in life that my primary goal is to serve as a bad example From pethier at comcast.net Sat Feb 5 13:40:41 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 20:40:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <001501cbc54c$f86b9ea0$e942dbe0$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <776253286.418307.1296938441641.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> > Hmmmm, you don't suppose this mug was made by the Mason Jar Company do > you? Before I can laugh at that, I'm going to have to ask you to explain it to me. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 5 16:06:05 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:06:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20110205100236.03b51db8@mail.comcast.net> References: <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net><4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110205100236.03b51db8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <007c01cbc589$44c2ce40$0301a8c0@randall> > The mug did come out of the freezer > so it is possible that changed the rootbeer. Hmm, maybe I need to visit AAW myself then. Root beer from a paper cup just doesn't taste the same as from those big frosty mugs. -- Randall From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Feb 5 21:04:28 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 23:04:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <007c01cbc589$44c2ce40$0301a8c0@randall> References: <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net><4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com><074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110205100236.03b51db8@mail.comcast.net> <007c01cbc589$44c2ce40$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <16E78B87149441B6BEC7957393AAA5FF@EricJRussellPC> My guess is the ice was either frozen to the bottom of the glass or perhaps stuck there by something akin to surface tension. I know I have seen ice stay at the bottom of a glass after the drink has been drunk. Tipping the glass all the way over won't get that piece of ice to slide off the bottom and down the side even though it moves all around the bottom of the glass. It sure is good to know we've solved all the world's problems and this is the only one left to ponder...! Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 5 21:20:16 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 20:20:16 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <001501cbc54c$f86b9ea0$e942dbe0$@cablespeed.com> References: <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net><4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <001501cbc54c$f86b9ea0$e942dbe0$@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <00e001cbc5b5$28c20ef0$0301a8c0@randall> > Hmmmm, you don't suppose this mug was made by the Mason Jar > Company do you? If so, they wouldn't admit it! -- Randall From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sat Feb 5 22:07:08 2011 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 00:07:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sagging storm door hinges? Message-ID: <20110206050708.GA77349@sackheads.org> A few years ago I installed a new storm door from Lowe's (Pella brand). The door is full glass with a small aluminum border so it weighs quite a bit and, thus, exerts a fair amount of torque on the piano-style hinges. Fast forward to today and I've noticed that the non-hinge side of the door is sagging around 1/8" from where it was when it was installed. It seems a considerable amount of play has developed in the hinges: if I lift up on the door handle, I can lift the storm door back to its original position. The wooden frame to which the hinges are screwed remains plumb and I don't see any deformation in the screw holes so the slop seems to be in the hinges themselves. Anybody seen this before? I know I can probably fix it by adding a shim to the lower hinge screws but if the hinge itself is deforming, this seems like a temporary fix at best. Is there a better way to repair? Replacing the hinges might not be feasible since I seem to recall they're an integral part of the door assemmbly. Thanks Jimmie From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 23:07:36 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 01:07:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sagging storm door hinges? In-Reply-To: <20110206050708.GA77349@sackheads.org> References: <20110206050708.GA77349@sackheads.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 12:07 AM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > A few years ago I installed a new storm door from Lowe's (Pella brand). B The > door is full glass with a small aluminum border so it weighs quite a bit and, > thus, exerts a fair amount of torque on the piano-style hinges. > > Fast forward to today and I've noticed that the non-hinge side of the door is > sagging around 1/8" from where it was when it was installed. B It seems a > considerable amount of play has developed in the hinges: B if I lift up on the > door handle, I can lift the storm door back to its original position. B The > wooden frame to which the hinges are screwed remains plumb and I don't see any > deformation in the screw holes so the slop seems to be in the hinges themselves. > > Anybody seen this before? B I know I can probably fix it by adding a shim to > the lower hinge screws but if the hinge itself is deforming, this seems like a > temporary fix at best. B Is there a better way to repair? B Replacing the hinges > might not be feasible since I seem to recall they're an integral part of the > door assemmbly. > I've seen a lot of alluminun storm doors that are racked. The corner frame joints come loose, and it sags. I've fixed some by attaching L brackets in the outside corners, but it sounds like you've got a newish fancyish door. What's the warranty? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jibjib at att.net Sun Feb 6 15:14:28 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 14:14:28 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sagging storm door hinges? In-Reply-To: <20110206050708.GA77349@sackheads.org> References: <20110206050708.GA77349@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <80DC7AAC81A44E83A6CBE618B7DB63B4@EntCent> Pella is reputable. Regardless of warrantee, I'd be talking with them. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jimmie Mayfield Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:07 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Sagging storm door hinges? A few years ago I installed a new storm door from Lowe's (Pella brand). The door is full glass with a small aluminum border so it weighs quite a bit and, thus, exerts a fair amount of torque on the piano-style hinges. Fast forward to today and I've noticed that the non-hinge side of the door is sagging around 1/8" from where it was when it was installed. It seems a considerable amount of play has developed in the hinges: if I lift up on the door handle, I can lift the storm door back to its original position. The wooden frame to which the hinges are screwed remains plumb and I don't see any deformation in the screw holes so the slop seems to be in the hinges themselves. Anybody seen this before? I know I can probably fix it by adding a shim to the lower hinge screws but if the hinge itself is deforming, this seems like a temporary fix at best. Is there a better way to repair? Replacing the hinges might not be feasible since I seem to recall they're an integral part of the door assemmbly. Thanks Jimmie _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From trmarty at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 20:36:33 2011 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 22:36:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging things on concrete walls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have a play room in the basement. Inside walls are drywall and outside wall is poured concrete. I am wanting to hang pictures on the poured concrete wall. Tried the 3M sticky stuff but it would not hang on. I will probably need to drill holes in the wall but am trying to avoid it if I can. Any ideas out there? Thanks, Marty From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 21:31:24 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 23:31:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging things on concrete walls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:36 PM, marty sukey wrote: > Have a play room in the basement. Inside walls are drywall and outside wall is > poured concrete. I am wanting to hang pictures on the poured concrete wall. > Tried the 3M sticky stuff but it would not hang on. I will probably need to > drill holes in the wall but am trying to avoid it if I can. Any ideas out > there? The "sticky 3m stuff" describes 1/3 of the products in the 3m catalog! Which one (or at least, what sort of one?)? The wall's painted, right? How cold is it? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jibjib at att.net Mon Feb 7 21:50:58 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:50:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging things on concrete walls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37D23E3A827E430CBA8B71A2416D2E43@EntCent> Tape a 1 foot square of plastic over the concrete and see if you have condensation coming through the wall. Give it a few days. If this is the damp time of year you are lucky, as the worst season is what you are looking for. If it's dry, epoxy or glue hooks in place, assuming you are resistive to drilling. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of marty sukey Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 7:37 PM To: shop-talk list Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging things on concrete walls Have a play room in the basement. Inside walls are drywall and outside wall is poured concrete. I am wanting to hang pictures on the poured concrete wall. Tried the 3M sticky stuff but it would not hang on. I will probably need to drill holes in the wall but am trying to avoid it if I can. Any ideas out there? Thanks, Marty _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Mon Feb 7 23:14:17 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 00:14:17 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging things on concrete walls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D50DF39.7020504@tx.rr.com> What some buildings do is to attach a wooden furring strip or some kind of metal track near the top of the wall all around the room, then hang pictures and so forth from this using monofilament fishing line or thin wires. > Have a play room in the basement. Inside walls are drywall and outside wall is > poured concrete. I am wanting to hang pictures on the poured concrete wall. > Tried the 3M sticky stuff but it would not hang on. I will probably need to > drill holes in the wall but am trying to avoid it if I can. Any ideas out > there? From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Feb 9 06:16:24 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 07:16:24 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging things on concrete walls In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I've used these in multiple houses and offices over the years: http://www.ooks.com/c-169-plastic-hardwall-hangers.aspx They are readily available in hardware stores, only take a few seconds to hammer in and can be removed pretty cleanly and easily if necessary. > From: trmarty at hotmail.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 22:36:33 -0500 > Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging things on concrete walls > > Have a play room in the basement. Inside walls are drywall and outside wall is > poured concrete. I am wanting to hang pictures on the poured concrete wall. > Tried the 3M sticky stuff but it would not hang on. I will probably need to > drill holes in the wall but am trying to avoid it if I can. Any ideas out > there? > > Thanks, > > Marty > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From eric at megageek.com Thu Feb 10 18:45:58 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:45:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount Message-ID: OK, here is my question... I have this tire changer... I can't mount it in my floor (I have radiant heat floor with pipes running in it.) I want to mount it to a metal 'arm' like mount that I can clamp to my welding table (at 3 tons, the table isn't going anywhere.) My question is, what kind of force is put on the base of that tire changer? I'll be about 5' away from the mounting point, so I'm trying to figure out how big of an arm I need to make. Or, does anyone else have any ideas on how to mount this changer so it is movable? Thanks in advance. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From cavanadd at frontier.com Thu Feb 10 19:34:39 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:34:39 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D54A03F.7070507@frontier.com> I have one, and always bolted it to the floor into anchors when I needed it, and put it away when I didn't. I know of some people that bolted theirs to a sheet of plywood and then used it that way, standing on the plywood. But this was all for motorcycle tires... eric at megageek.com wrote: > OK, here is my question... > > I have this tire changer... > > > > I can't mount it in my floor (I have radiant heat floor with pipes running > in it.) > > I want to mount it to a metal 'arm' like mount that I can clamp to my > welding table (at 3 tons, the table isn't going anywhere.) > > My question is, what kind of force is put on the base of that tire > changer? I'll be about 5' away from the mounting point, so I'm trying to > figure out how big of an arm I need to make. > > Or, does anyone else have any ideas on how to mount this changer so it is > movable? > > Thanks in advance. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From fishplate at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 19:53:39 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:53:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 8:45 PM, wrote: > I have this tire changer... > > > My question is, what kind of force is put on the base of that tire > changer? If I understand how it works, most of the force will be torque as you pry the bead off the rim. Breaking the bead is toward the ground, and shouldn't be much of a problem. So, take the force times the length of the handle, and divide by the length of the mounting arm. That's what you'll need to provide for in your mount. A lot depends on how hard your tires are to get on and off the rim. Does that help at all? Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Feb 10 19:59:29 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:59:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a HF tire changer like that. I put some tee nuts in a piece of 3/4" plywood (~ 4'X4' but mounted slightly off-center). To use the tire changer I put the plywood down, attach the tire changer and have at it. As long as I am standing on the plywood, any torque applied goes toward changing the tire. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > Or, does anyone else have any ideas on how to mount this changer so it is > movable? From jibjib at att.net Thu Feb 10 20:46:29 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:46:29 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B131E757AF74FA9951F3836CC95DA07@EntCent> Use an infrared thermometer and located the heat tubes, then mount the tire changer between them. Ok, it unconventional. Mounting to plywood would work fine. Jeff gave you the way to calculate. For the force, use your body weight. It should be a good safe number. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 5:46 PM To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount OK, here is my question... I have this tire changer... I can't mount it in my floor (I have radiant heat floor with pipes running in it.) I want to mount it to a metal 'arm' like mount that I can clamp to my welding table (at 3 tons, the table isn't going anywhere.) My question is, what kind of force is put on the base of that tire changer? I'll be about 5' away from the mounting point, so I'm trying to figure out how big of an arm I need to make. Or, does anyone else have any ideas on how to mount this changer so it is movable? Thanks in advance. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 10 21:10:06 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:10:06 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <036a01cbc9a1$910c6f60$0301a8c0@randall> > My question is, what kind of force is put on the base of that tire > changer? Well, how strong are you? I have one of those changers, and it sometimes takes all I can muster to change a tire. I figure that's about 250 lbf at the end of what? maybe 7' or so between the end of the lever and where the changer reaches the floor. Don't forget, the force changes direction as you work around the tire, too. Easiest solution IMO is to look around for a used pneumatic changer -- Randall From mgowen55 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 04:18:24 2011 From: mgowen55 at hotmail.com (Glenn Owen) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 06:18:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Or, does anyone else have any ideas on how to mount this changer so it is > movable? > I mounted mine on a piece of 3'x3' 3/4" plywood with 5/8" (believe) stove bolts. Mount the stove bolts from the bottom of the plywood, through the holes in the tire changer mount. Torqued the nuts down a little and the bolt heads become counter sunk a bit, flush with the surface of the plywood. You stand on the plywood when torquing on the tire/changer and it doesn't move. Easily disassembles for storage. Has served my well for several years From rolds at plausa.com Fri Feb 11 07:53:27 2011 From: rolds at plausa.com (Ron Olds) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:53:27 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program Message-ID: Hello Everyone, Back in my previous versions of Windows I used the Auto Sketch drafting program which worked great for me. Now that I have had to update to Windows 7 I can no longer use this program. I am looking for something new that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Anyone have any suggestions? Ronald Olds The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews, semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal. From marka at maracing.com Fri Feb 11 08:03:04 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:03:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: <0B131E757AF74FA9951F3836CC95DA07@EntCent> References: <0B131E757AF74FA9951F3836CC95DA07@EntCent> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Jack Brooks wrote: > Use an infrared thermometer and located the heat tubes, then mount the > tire changer between them. > > Ok, it unconventional. Not really... I've heard of at least two other folks doing exactly that to put in mounting locations for a lift. > Mounting to plywood would work fine. Jeff gave you the way to > calculate. For the force, use your body weight. It should be a good > safe number. If I had a 3 ton table that wasn't going to move, I'd probably use that, just to not have to store a big piece of plywood. As for how to attach it to the table... I probably wouldn't use a clamp. instead, I'd make up something like a hitch receiver that you'd see on a pickup. Perhaps even just use those parts (you can get the hitch tubes at HF or Northern or whatever), but you could also make your own easy enough. Slip the mount in, put in the pin, and go to town. I agree that most of the force you'll need to deal with will be torque. Mark From fishplate at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 08:49:42 2011 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:49:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Ron Olds wrote: > Now that I have had to update to Windows 7 > I can no longer use this program. I am looking for something new that doesn't > cost an arm and a leg. Anyone have any suggestions? How about free? Or at least, an optional donation in the amount of your choice to Doctors Without Borders... http://www.progesoft.us/index.pl?id=3985;isa=Category;op=show Like most full CAD programs, it's a bit steep to learn - I certainly haven't done more than simple drawings with it* - but the price is right. Jeff Scarbrough Corrosion Acres, Ga. *I use another CAD program designed for my other hobby (model railroads) to draw anything I need, simply because I'm used to it. Otherwise, I'd probably use this one more. From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Feb 11 08:53:47 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:53:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110211155347.SIAHC.120536.root@cdptpa-web15-z02> Now you're onto something- You don't even need to buy any specialty items, just buy 2 short pieces of steel tube, sized so that one will slide within the other one. Weld the bigger piece to the side of the table, weld a flat plate to the smaller piece so it looks like a big flyswatter, slide one end into the tube that is welded to the table, bolt the flat plate on the other end to the base of the tire changer. > As for how to attach it to the table... I probably wouldn't use a clamp. > instead, I'd make up something like a hitch receiver that you'd see on a > pickup. Perhaps even just use those parts (you can get the hitch tubes at > HF or Northern or whatever), but you could also make your own easy enough. > Slip the mount in, put in the pin, and go to town. From bobkegel at comcast.net Fri Feb 11 17:36:26 2011 From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:36:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96196CACD3FF422CA26D827D44641990@robertve2wc7wm> A freebie: http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/free 2d/index.shtml I haven't done a lot of work with it but it reads AutoCad DXF files. From pethier at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 22:58:52 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 05:58:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2018754954.841146.1297576732832.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Mount it in on a big panel. Don't attach the panel to the floor. Panel has to be big enough for you to stand on while you operate it. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: eric at megageek.com > To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 7:45:58 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] technical question about force applied to mount > > OK, here is my question... > > I have this tire changer... > > > > I can't mount it in my floor (I have radiant heat floor with pipes > running > in it.) > > I want to mount it to a metal 'arm' like mount that I can clamp to my > > welding table (at 3 tons, the table isn't going anywhere.) > > My question is, what kind of force is put on the base of that tire > changer? I'll be about 5' away from the mounting point, so I'm trying > to > figure out how big of an arm I need to make. > > Or, does anyone else have any ideas on how to mount this changer so it > is > movable? > > Thanks in advance. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a > rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From watsonm05 at comcast.net Sun Feb 13 17:47:30 2011 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:47:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Ron Olds wrote: > Now that I have had to update to Windows 7 > I can no longer use this program. If you're not coming from Win XP ignore this message. I'm not speaking from experience but Win 7 Professional & Ultimate have a Win XP compatibility mode - would that help you? See http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/features/windows-xp-mode.aspx Of course there's always the consideration of $$$. For me the upgrade from Win 7 Home Premium 64 Bit is ~$90 from Microsoft. Mark Watson 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' - long term resto 1965 Ford Falcon - finishing clutch & trans replacement this year - really I'll finish it this year! and other various transportation pods . . . From bk13 at earthlink.net Sun Feb 13 18:51:32 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:51:32 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D588AA4.7030103@earthlink.net> Ronald - Did you try the program on the new computer? I use several programs from XP that are not listed as Windows 7 compatible on my new Win 7 Home Premium 64 computer. One has no issues at all. Fireworks MX 2004 switches the screen display to eliminate all the fancy screen stuff, but everything goes back once I close the program. Dreamweaver MX 2004 works fine for everything I do at home. At work, I can't use it because it has to be run as an administrator and looses network drives. My recommendation it to give the current program a test and see if it still works. Brian On 2/11/2011 6:53 AM, Ron Olds wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Back in my previous versions of Windows I used the Auto Sketch drafting > program which worked great for me. Now that I have had to update to Windows 7 > I can no longer use this program. I am looking for something new that doesn't > cost an arm and a leg. Anyone have any suggestions? > > Ronald Olds > > The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may be > proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for the use of > the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or any other such use > is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews, semination or copying by > anyone other than the intended recipient is expressly prohibited. If you have > received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and destroy all copies > of the original transmittal. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From rolds at plausa.com Mon Feb 14 08:46:34 2011 From: rolds at plausa.com (Ron Olds) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:46:34 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program In-Reply-To: <4D588AA4.7030103@earthlink.net> References: <4D588AA4.7030103@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Brian, Yes I tried to run the program and it does not work. I have contacted Autodesk and they have told me the program will not run with Windows 7 and they only way to save my old files is to find someone who has the program and can convert the files to DWG format. Thanks for your suggestions. Ronald Olds Sales Manager Plasser American Corporation PO Box 5464 2001 Myers Road Chesapeake, VA 23324-0464 Phone (757) 543-3526 Cell (630) 240-0818 Fax (757) 494-7186 The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews, semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal. -----Original Message----- From: Brian Kemp [mailto:bk13 at earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:52 PM To: Ron Olds Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net; Triumphs (triumphs at autox.team.net); mgs at autox.team.net; mg-t at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program Ronald - Did you try the program on the new computer? I use several programs from XP that are not listed as Windows 7 compatible on my new Win 7 Home Premium 64 computer. One has no issues at all. Fireworks MX 2004 switches the screen display to eliminate all the fancy screen stuff, but everything goes back once I close the program. Dreamweaver MX 2004 works fine for everything I do at home. At work, I can't use it because it has to be run as an administrator and looses network drives. My recommendation it to give the current program a test and see if it still works. Brian On 2/11/2011 6:53 AM, Ron Olds wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Back in my previous versions of Windows I used the Auto Sketch > drafting program which worked great for me. Now that I have had to > update to Windows 7 I can no longer use this program. I am looking > for something new that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Anyone have any suggestions? > > Ronald Olds > > The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may > be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for > the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or > any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews, > semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is > expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > please notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation > $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Feb 16 10:40:30 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:40:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part Message-ID: I have a spare trunk lid that I would like to use on a restoration project. The original lid has a fair amount of damage to it and it seems like it would be easier all around to just replace it. However, like the rest of the car, the original is completely rust free. The other lid is in very good shape and definitely usable (I dont remember where I picked it up, but think it has been in storage for a long time), but it does have some of the usual rust that I can see around the lower edge in the inside. Plus, there is lots of rust dust that comes loose when I tip it on its side, so I know it is forming within the inner frame where I cant see it. Id love to just take it to a stripper and have it dipped, but there are none around here. On the other hand, it wouldnt be too difficult to find some sort of large trough (maybe even a kiddie swimming pool) that I could convert into an electrolytic rust removal tank big enough to handle the lid. I am in no hurry and it could cook in there for weeks if necessary. Ive had great success with this method for small parts. Is this a dumb idea? Is it feasible for something this large? Would my 30 year old battery charger (2/10/50 amp circuits) be enough for the job? Any thoughts and recommendations will be appreciated. Thanks, Jim From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Feb 16 11:33:33 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:33:33 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: another thought Jim... you might not be able to find a kiddie pool affordable with the side wall height you need for the trunk lid.. another option would be scab together a frame of plywood the depth you need and line with with polyethylene to make your own tank... with a little care and not poking holes in it with the truck lid it would work find. lots of info on the net on electrolysis rust removal including primers on tank building, anodes and voltage/amperage requirements.... Google is full of it john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:40 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part >I have a spare trunk lid that I would like to use on a restoration project. > The original lid has a fair amount of damage to it and it seems like it > would > be easier all around to just replace it. However, like the rest of the > car, > the original is completely rust free. The other lid is in very good shape > and > definitely usable (I dont remember where I picked it up, but think it has > been in storage for a long time), but it does have some of the usual rust > that > I can see around the lower edge in the inside. Plus, there is lots of rust > dust that comes loose when I tip it on its side, so I know it is forming > within the inner frame where I cant see it. > > Id love to just take it to a stripper and have it dipped, but there are > none > around here. On the other hand, it wouldnt be too difficult to find some > sort > of large trough (maybe even a kiddie swimming pool) that I could convert > into > an electrolytic rust removal tank big enough to handle the lid. I am in no > hurry and it could cook in there for weeks if necessary. Ive had great > success with this method for small parts. Is this a dumb idea? Is it > feasible > for something this large? Would my 30 year old battery charger (2/10/50 > amp > circuits) be enough for the job? > > Any thoughts and recommendations will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3447 - Release Date: 02/16/11 From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Feb 16 12:39:03 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:39:03 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thanks John. I've done a fair amount of surfing on it, but everything I can remember reading dealt with fairly small parts. I made a very handy tank for some medium-sized parts out of a large plastic container and some rebar, but have never attempted anything this large. But for the record, "this large" is not all that big. The entire trunk lid would fit in a container 4' x 3' x 18". I will do a little more surfing. > From: jniolon at bham.rr.com > To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:33:33 -0600 > > another thought Jim... > > you might not be able to find a kiddie pool affordable with the side wall > height you need for the trunk lid.. another option would be scab together a > frame of plywood the depth you need and line with with polyethylene to make > your own tank... with a little care and not poking holes in it with the > truck lid it would work find. > > lots of info on the net on electrolysis rust removal including primers on > tank building, anodes and voltage/amperage requirements.... Google is full > of it > > john > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Stone" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:40 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part > > > >I have a spare trunk lid that I would like to use on a restoration project. > > The original lid has a fair amount of damage to it and it seems like it > > would > > be easier all around to just replace it. However, like the rest of the > > car, > > the original is completely rust free. The other lid is in very good shape > > and > > definitely usable (I dont remember where I picked it up, but think it has > > been in storage for a long time), but it does have some of the usual rust > > that > > I can see around the lower edge in the inside. Plus, there is lots of rust > > dust that comes loose when I tip it on its side, so I know it is forming > > within the inner frame where I cant see it. > > > > Id love to just take it to a stripper and have it dipped, but there are > > none > > around here. On the other hand, it wouldnt be too difficult to find some > > sort > > of large trough (maybe even a kiddie swimming pool) that I could convert > > into > > an electrolytic rust removal tank big enough to handle the lid. I am in no > > hurry and it could cook in there for weeks if necessary. Ive had great > > success with this method for small parts. Is this a dumb idea? Is it > > feasible > > for something this large? Would my 30 year old battery charger (2/10/50 > > amp > > circuits) be enough for the job? > > > > Any thoughts and recommendations will be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3447 - Release Date: 02/16/11 From 57healey at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 15:33:16 2011 From: 57healey at gmail.com (57healey at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:33:16 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=149807 Those tractor guys get lots of big rusty parts Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Jim Stone Sender: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:40:30 To: Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part I have a spare trunk lid that I would like to use on a restoration project. The original lid has a fair amount of damage to it and it seems like it would be easier all around to just replace it. However, like the rest of the car, the original is completely rust free. The other lid is in very good shape and definitely usable (I dont remember where I picked it up, but think it has been in storage for a long time), but it does have some of the usual rust that I can see around the lower edge in the inside. Plus, there is lots of rust dust that comes loose when I tip it on its side, so I know it is forming within the inner frame where I cant see it. Id love to just take it to a stripper and have it dipped, but there are none around here. On the other hand, it wouldnt be too difficult to find some sort of large trough (maybe even a kiddie swimming pool) that I could convert into an electrolytic rust removal tank big enough to handle the lid. I am in no hurry and it could cook in there for weeks if necessary. Ive had great success with this method for small parts. Is this a dumb idea? Is it feasible for something this large? Would my 30 year old battery charger (2/10/50 amp circuits) be enough for the job? Any thoughts and recommendations will be appreciated. Thanks, Jim _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/57healey at gmail.com From rolds at plausa.com Wed Feb 16 17:45:25 2011 From: rolds at plausa.com (Ron Olds) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 00:45:25 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program In-Reply-To: <4D588AA4.7030103@earthlink.net> References: <4D588AA4.7030103@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I would like to thank everyone for their input on my problem. I ended up installing Virtual XP which will solve my problem. I can now run the program and open my old drawings. I also installed CadStd which looks like a good program, basic but gives me what I want. Some of the other programs recommended to me were either not Windows 7 compatible or not free as suggested. If anyone has any old programs which will not run on the newer Windows I would recommend the Virtual XP. It is a free way to use old software instead of buying upgrades or in my case where there was no alternative. Ronald Olds Sales Manager Plasser American Corporation PO Box 5464 2001 Myers Road Chesapeake, VA 23324-0464 Phone (757) 543-3526 Cell (630) 240-0818 Fax (757) 494-7186 The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews, semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal. -----Original Message----- From: Brian Kemp [mailto:bk13 at earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:52 PM To: Ron Olds Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net; Triumphs (triumphs at autox.team.net); mgs at autox.team.net; mg-t at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Drafting Program Ronald - Did you try the program on the new computer? I use several programs from XP that are not listed as Windows 7 compatible on my new Win 7 Home Premium 64 computer. One has no issues at all. Fireworks MX 2004 switches the screen display to eliminate all the fancy screen stuff, but everything goes back once I close the program. Dreamweaver MX 2004 works fine for everything I do at home. At work, I can't use it because it has to be run as an administrator and looses network drives. My recommendation it to give the current program a test and see if it still works. Brian On 2/11/2011 6:53 AM, Ron Olds wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Back in my previous versions of Windows I used the Auto Sketch > drafting program which worked great for me. Now that I have had to > update to Windows 7 I can no longer use this program. I am looking > for something new that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Anyone have any suggestions? > > Ronald Olds > > The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may > be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for > the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or > any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews, > semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is > expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > please notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation > $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From cavanadd at frontier.com Wed Feb 16 21:38:36 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 20:38:36 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D5CA64C.1080309@frontier.com> The Old Wood Working Machine (OWWM) guys use this process (the technical term is "spooging") a lot to do cabinet saws and other large iron and steel objects. Works fine. Kiddie pool or home made tank made of cribbing and plastic sheeting. Don't know about your battery charger, though. Jim Stone wrote: > I have a spare trunk lid that I would like to use on a restoration project. > The original lid has a fair amount of damage to it and it seems like it would > be easier all around to just replace it. However, like the rest of the car, > the original is completely rust free. The other lid is in very good shape and > definitely usable (I dont remember where I picked it up, but think it has > been in storage for a long time), but it does have some of the usual rust that > I can see around the lower edge in the inside. Plus, there is lots of rust > dust that comes loose when I tip it on its side, so I know it is forming > within the inner frame where I cant see it. > > Id love to just take it to a stripper and have it dipped, but there are none > around here. On the other hand, it wouldnt be too difficult to find some sort > of large trough (maybe even a kiddie swimming pool) that I could convert into > an electrolytic rust removal tank big enough to handle the lid. I am in no > hurry and it could cook in there for weeks if necessary. Ive had great > success with this method for small parts. Is this a dumb idea? Is it feasible > for something this large? Would my 30 year old battery charger (2/10/50 amp > circuits) be enough for the job? > > Any thoughts and recommendations will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Feb 17 08:46:35 2011 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:46:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part References: Message-ID: <8FEB3F8D56394F408194A65649EDBB48@mde.state.md.us> Sounds like a plan to me. I like the thought of the kiddie pool. Remember, the action is pretty much directional. So sections not facing the electrodes will be much slower to de-rust. Your existing battery charger will do the job just fine. From tputland at charter.net Thu Feb 17 09:41:02 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 8:41:02 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] car dolly replacement casters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110217114102.G0KNV.9066480.root@mp20> I just ordered new casters for my car dollies from CasterCity. All sales reps were busy when I called. I left my name and number and received a call back with in 15 minutes. The guy on the phone was very helpful and guided me to the best caster for my application. He then gave me two different discounts totalling 25%. He said they would be assembled and shipped with in two days from texas. I am hoping they go out tomorrow. Great customer service--I thought that was a thing of the past here in the US! Another happy (so far) customer. Thanks for the recommendation Michael! Tim Dairyland Datsuns ---- Michael Burdick wrote: ============= I have purchased casters from the following outfit and have been happy with what I received: http://www.castercity.com/ It was for different applications though so I can't speak to the "what" in your question. NFI. Hope this helps, Mike Burdick Durham NC On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Tim wrote: > > > What/where have people bought please? > > Thanks! > > Tim > Dairyland Datsuns From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Feb 17 10:41:12 2011 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:41:12 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] car dolly replacement casters In-Reply-To: <20110217114102.G0KNV.9066480.root@mp20> References: <20110217114102.G0KNV.9066480.root@mp20> Message-ID: <4009F69875D14437B5AC3D0F77D48814@OwnerPC> Tim., what did you end up buying j ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim" To: "Michael Burdick" Cc: "ShopTalk" Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] car dolly replacement casters >I just ordered new casters for my car dollies from CasterCity. All sales >reps were busy when I called. I left my name and number and received a call >back with in 15 minutes. The guy on the phone was very helpful and guided >me to the best caster for my application. He then gave me two different >discounts totalling 25%. He said they would be assembled and shipped with >in two days from texas. I am hoping they go out tomorrow. > > Great customer service--I thought that was a thing of the past here in the > US! > > Another happy (so far) customer. Thanks for the recommendation Michael! > > Tim > Dairyland Datsuns > > > ---- Michael Burdick wrote: > > ============= > I have purchased casters from the following outfit and have been happy > with > what I received: > > http://www.castercity.com/ > > It was for different applications though so I can't speak to the "what" in > your question. > > NFI. > > Hope this helps, > Mike Burdick > Durham NC > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Tim wrote: > >> >> >> What/where have people bought please? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Tim >> Dairyland Datsuns > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3449 - Release Date: 02/17/11 From tputland at charter.net Thu Feb 17 10:52:15 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 9:52:15 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] car dolly replacement casters In-Reply-To: <4009F69875D14437B5AC3D0F77D48814@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <20110217125215.WMJN9.9066603.root@mp20> This is straight from my order summary: Swivel Caster - Polyurethane on Polyolefin Wheel - Model 3 Product Code: 3RG3x1-1/4-S [Wheel Brake: - None] These are not the bottom basic model. I didn't need a brake. I think the wheels were 200# ea capacity. I only have Datsun Roadsters so corner weights are minor. ---- john niolon wrote: ============= Tim., what did you end up buying j ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim" To: "Michael Burdick" Cc: "ShopTalk" Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] car dolly replacement casters >I just ordered new casters for my car dollies from CasterCity. All sales >reps were busy when I called. I left my name and number and received a call >back with in 15 minutes. The guy on the phone was very helpful and guided >me to the best caster for my application. He then gave me two different >discounts totalling 25%. He said they would be assembled and shipped with >in two days from texas. I am hoping they go out tomorrow. > > Great customer service--I thought that was a thing of the past here in the > US! > > Another happy (so far) customer. Thanks for the recommendation Michael! > > Tim > Dairyland Datsuns > > > ---- Michael Burdick wrote: > > ============= > I have purchased casters from the following outfit and have been happy > with > what I received: > > http://www.castercity.com/ > > It was for different applications though so I can't speak to the "what" in > your question. > > NFI. > > Hope this helps, > Mike Burdick > Durham NC > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Tim wrote: > >> >> >> What/where have people bought please? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Tim >> Dairyland Datsuns > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3449 - Release Date: 02/17/11 From fortee9er at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 09:04:33 2011 From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:04:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Power washer Message-ID: <48345.60620.qm@web161413.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I want to thank the person on this list that posted about buying a power washer from Lowe's clearance area. Remembering his post I made a trip to Lowe's yesterday and found a power washer in the clearance area. It is a Troy Built 2550 psi 23 gph machine that is missing most of the nossles and another accessory that I have not been able to identify yet. But a 42% discount was irresistible. Thanks Jorge From peterwmurray at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:41:19 2011 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:41:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] RIP Ron Hickman Message-ID: Inventor of the Black and Decker Workmate and designer of the Lotus Elan, Plus2 and Europa dies at 78 after a long illness. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/18/workmate_lotus/ If he was not, he should have been a team.net member! -Peter -- Peter Murray (N3IXY) Oak Hill, VA From Jandkstone99 at msn.com Sat Feb 19 08:43:06 2011 From: Jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim and Kathy) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 09:43:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part In-Reply-To: <8FEB3F8D56394F408194A65649EDBB48@mde.state.md.us> References: <8FEB3F8D56394F408194A65649EDBB48@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: Thanks Nolan. Your comment about directional action is interesting. The tank I made for smaller parts has 4 rebar rods, one in each corner. Would more be better for a larger tank? Sent from my iPad On Feb 17, 2011, at 9:46 AM, "Nolan" wrote: > Sounds like a plan to me. I like the thought of the kiddie pool. > > Remember, the action is pretty much directional. So sections not facing the electrodes will be much slower to de-rust. > > Your existing battery charger will do the job just fine. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From opposumking at verizon.net Sat Feb 19 10:54:59 2011 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:54:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part In-Reply-To: References: <8FEB3F8D56394F408194A65649EDBB48@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <4D6003F3.3090004@verizon.net> I am far from a super well versed expert on electrolytic rust removal. I've done it, enjoyed it, have a bucket and stuff for it. When I first tried it, I used rebar, and was quite disappointed with the results. Don't remember what forum I was in discussing it, but someone suggested I use something with a lot more surface area, like an old saw blade. Tried that, and the process really took off. Surface area has a tremendous effect on the process. Far for than power does. Did more playing, learning that gunk slows the process down also. As in gunk on the plate. Reverse the charge for a few minutes every few hours to knock the gunk off, and it keeps up the speed. I had some old shop lamp reflectors that I sanded clean and hammered a bit to fit inside my always handy 5 gallon bucket. This lets me surround the part with steel. That's worked well for me. But it really isn't much faster than the old saw blade. I'd expect the same sort of results in a kiddie pool. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 11:48:48 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 13:48:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrolytic Rust Removal on a large part In-Reply-To: <4D6003F3.3090004@verizon.net> References: <8FEB3F8D56394F408194A65649EDBB48@mde.state.md.us> <4D6003F3.3090004@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Nolan wrote: > I am far from a super well versed expert on electrolytic rust removal. B I've > done it, enjoyed it, have a bucket and stuff for it. > > When I first tried it, I used rebar, and was quite disappointed with the > results. B Don't remember what forum I was in discussing it, but someone > suggested I use something with a lot more surface area, like an old saw > blade. B Tried that, and the process really took off. B Surface area has a > tremendous effect on the process. B Far for than power does. > If surface area is important (which isn't surprising, it's the controlling limit in a lot of reactions.), how about using something like the mesh that's used in concrete work? It's cheap, it's got lots of surface area, it'll be flexible enough to bend to fit whatever you put it in. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sat Feb 19 14:15:06 2011 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:15:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cement patching in cold weather? Message-ID: <8BA653AB-B726-410F-8F13-D2C1B0938434@groupwbench.org> I need to patch the crumpled edge where the garage floor meets the driveway, it's letting wildlife in. What's the best stuff to use? It won't see car traffic, might see motorcycle traffic if it ever gets above freezing again. Right now we're in a 20-35 degree range for a while. thanks, From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sat Feb 19 16:04:37 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:04:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cement patching in cold weather? In-Reply-To: <8BA653AB-B726-410F-8F13-D2C1B0938434@groupwbench.org> References: <8BA653AB-B726-410F-8F13-D2C1B0938434@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4D604C85.4000309@tx.rr.com> The best that you can get is "Sikatop" by the Sika corporation. They are experts in concrete repair products. There are other manufacturers that make competing products that may be as good, but we specify Sika. One key to the successful use of these products is the installation. Most products of this type have a preferred thickness range. If you have a deteriorated area in a driveway, usually the depth varies and might be very thin along the edges. For things like this we require contractors to make a shallow sawcut along the edge and then remove more of the existing material so that the edge is a ledge and not just a shallow taper. Any good product of this type will have detailed installation instructions including the range of thicknesses. The instructions will also have information on the temperature range for installation. Generally cement-based products will not work at or below freezing. If you must do repairs in those conditions you might have to build a little tent over the area out of plastic sheeting and put a heater in there to warm everything up. > I need to patch the crumpled edge where the garage floor meets the driveway, > it's letting wildlife in. What's the best stuff to use? It won't see car > traffic, might see motorcycle traffic if it ever gets above freezing again. > Right now we're in a 20-35 degree range for a while. > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3453 - Release Date: 02/19/11 01:34:00 From shiples at comcast.net Sun Feb 20 03:32:17 2011 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 02:32:17 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <0LG500GT8P414230@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall> <5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net> <4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall> <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20110220020802.03bb4d48@mail.comcast.net> The short answer is that the ice was stuck in the bottom of the frosty mug The longer answer is that the second visit resulted in the majority of the ice stayed at the bottom of the mug, but a few chips floated on top. The exciting part of the experiment was that while enjoying my bacon double cheese or whatever artery clogging combo, that the ice that was previously stuck to the bottom floated to the top. Looks like the phenomena is temperature dependent. At 01:07 PM 2/5/2011 -0500, Steven Trovato wrote: >You know, that's works. > >http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2006-07/ice-capades > >Though in this case, I'm going with the ice stuck to the glass theory. > >-Steve > >At 12:24 PM 2/5/2011, Kurt Oblinger wrote: >>Maybe the ice was made with heavy water? >> >>What? >>Right, back to my corner...... >> >>Kurt O. >> >>On 2/4/2011 8:48 PM, Randall wrote: >>>>Maybe if the root beer is largely corn syrup, that could be >>>>lower density. >>>Nope, corn syrup is also higher density than water. >>> >>>In fact, normal ice does float on normal root beer (I worked for awhile as a >>>soda jerk many years ago). So I'm also at a loss to explain what Steve saw; >>>unless perhaps the ice was stuck to the glass and only came free after the >>>level had dropped. >>> >>>Used to be that A&W would store their glass mugs in the freezer, so when >>>they added root beer, the cold mug would actually freeze water out of the >>>root beer onto the glass. But I thought they quit doing that a long time >>>ago (shortly before I stopped buying root beer there). >>> >>>-- Randall >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >>Unsubscribe/Manage: >>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shiples at comcast.net From kvacek at ameritech.net Sun Feb 20 07:14:32 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 08:14:32 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Best dishwasher? - Epilogue Message-ID: <003501cbd108$7f61cad0$7e256070$@ameritech.net> Thanks everyone for all the suggestions - here's what happened... We looked at other dishwashers and read lots of reviews - none of them seemed any better than what we have and every brand has its share of dissatisfied customers. Realizing that a new pump would probably get me another 5 years for a small fraction of the cost of a new dishwasher that might not be any better, I pulled our KitchenAid Superba apart. The problem wasn't the pump at all - the flimsy plastic coupling that drives the garbage chopper had broken. The chopper screen had slowly plugged up with soap residue and lint (yes, lint, and we don't wash clothes in there). The pump was starving. I put in a new garbage chopper and our dishes sparkle again. Thanks to everyone for the ideas ! Karl From kvacek at ameritech.net Sun Feb 20 10:07:14 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 11:07:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Best dishwasher? - Epilogue In-Reply-To: <4D6139E3.7000907@xxiii.com> References: <003501cbd108$7f61cad0$7e256070$@ameritech.net> <4D6139E3.7000907@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <003a01cbd120$9f7fc2a0$de7f47e0$@ameritech.net> Hi Wayne, Didn't see it before, but I just found it. Funny! There's a dog in the clothes washer commercial there too, and after the real dog kept trying to get in, it wasn't obvious to me that the little girl only put in a stuffed dog. Not to be an old fuddy-duddy, but I hope it doesn't encourage kids to put dogs in the washer. Thanks! Karl -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Best dishwasher? - Epilogue I think you mentioned looking at Miele washers in your search; did you see their "tricycle" commercial? -Wayne From cavanadd at frontier.com Sun Feb 20 17:43:39 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (Dave C) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 16:43:39 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cement patching in cold weather? In-Reply-To: <8BA653AB-B726-410F-8F13-D2C1B0938434@groupwbench.org> References: <8BA653AB-B726-410F-8F13-D2C1B0938434@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4D61B53B.1050802@frontier.com> If it's just a temporary patch until the weather warms up, then asphalt cold patch, tamped in place with a 2x4, should work. Try to get it up to room temp first. On 2/19/2011 1:15 PM, Jim Franklin wrote: > I need to patch the crumpled edge where the garage floor meets the driveway, > it's letting wildlife in. What's the best stuff to use? It won't see car > traffic, might see motorcycle traffic if it ever gets above freezing again. > Right now we're in a 20-35 degree range for a while. > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From shop at shariconglobal.com Mon Feb 21 12:47:30 2011 From: shop at shariconglobal.com (Aric) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 14:47:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning up spilled mineral oil on carpet References: <00c301c6c724$15d6da30$4601a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <64E2B33F68424AF481B085EA0C4A974A@Tablet> Howdy All, Long story short, it seems I didn't secure things too well when sending some homebrew high voltage capacitors down to my brother's place and one of them fell over and leaked an undertermined amount of mineral oil onto the carpeting in the back of the car. Any suggestions for cleanup and getting rid of the smell? It's probably a decade since we built them and I have no recollection of what we did for cleanup back then or how hard it was to do. Right now the plan is kitty litter, but I'm not sure it'll do much for the smell or get it all out of the carpet. Thanks! -aric. From tputland at charter.net Mon Feb 21 13:12:57 2011 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 12:12:57 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning up spilled mineral oil on carpet In-Reply-To: <64E2B33F68424AF481B085EA0C4A974A@Tablet> Message-ID: <20110221151257.3V1LV.4533002.root@mp16> After you get the oily bit cleaned up, baking soda might work on the smell. ---- Aric wrote: ============= Howdy All, Long story short, it seems I didn't secure things too well when sending some homebrew high voltage capacitors down to my brother's place and one of them fell over and leaked an undertermined amount of mineral oil onto the carpeting in the back of the car. Any suggestions for cleanup and getting rid of the smell? It's probably a decade since we built them and I have no recollection of what we did for cleanup back then or how hard it was to do. Right now the plan is kitty litter, but I'm not sure it'll do much for the smell or get it all out of the carpet. Thanks! -aric. _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 13:15:33 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:15:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning up spilled mineral oil on carpet In-Reply-To: <64E2B33F68424AF481B085EA0C4A974A@Tablet> References: <00c301c6c724$15d6da30$4601a8c0@KARL> <64E2B33F68424AF481B085EA0C4A974A@Tablet> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Aric wrote: > Howdy All, > > Long story short, it seems I didn't secure things too well when sending some > homebrew high voltage capacitors down to my brother's place and one of them > fell over and leaked an undertermined amount of mineral oil onto the > carpeting in the back of the car. B Any suggestions for cleanup and getting > rid of the smell? B It's probably a decade since we built them and I have no > recollection of what we did for cleanup back then or how hard it was to do. > Right now the plan is kitty litter, but I'm not sure it'll do much for the > smell or get it all out of the carpet. > Can you remove the carpets? If you can, they can be cleaned. If you can't, pay someone who owns a suitable to do it. You'll have less than satisfactory results with any bulk absorbant. (though if you've got puddles of the stuff, get rid of them first.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Feb 21 16:57:04 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 18:57:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20110220020802.03bb4d48@mail.comcast.net> References: <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net><4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall><4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20110220020802.03bb4d48@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Shipley" > The exciting part of the experiment was that while enjoying my bacon > double cheese or whatever artery clogging combo, that the ice that > was previously stuck to the bottom floated to the top. If you really want your arteries clogged... Heart Attack Grill http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4632991n Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Feb 21 17:49:52 2011 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:49:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paging Mr Wizard In-Reply-To: References: <4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><03cb01cbc33c$b46541a0$0301a8c0@randall><5.2.1.1.0.20110204153148.027d0bb8@mail.comcast.net><4D4CCA6A.8020101@xxiii.com> <074001cbc4ef$fd2920f0$0301a8c0@randall><4D4D87EA.5010801@verizon.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20110220020802.03bb4d48@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D630830.8070704@xxiii.com> On 2/21/2011 6:57 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > If you really want your arteries clogged... > Heart Attack Grill > http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4632991n HeHe... they should also offer free "man bras" to cover up those nasty goobs on their clientele. It's really probably not much worse than the typical Pizza Hut grub. Hey! I'm down to 159' on my 5'10" self this morning ;) Now if I could just tone up without actually exerting myself... -W From eric at megageek.com Mon Feb 21 17:42:42 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:42:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning up spilled mineral oil on carpet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A trick I use when 'staging' a home for an open house if there are odors, is to fill a bowl with white vinegar and place it in the room with the smell. In a few minutes, the smell is gone. This will work well in a small space like a car, but it might not be a permeant fix (it may work permanently however.) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson David Scheidt Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 02/21/2011 15:13 To Aric cc shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Cleaning up spilled mineral oil on carpet On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Aric wrote: > Howdy All, > > Long story short, it seems I didn't secure things too well when sending some > homebrew high voltage capacitors down to my brother's place and one of them > fell over and leaked an undertermined amount of mineral oil onto the > carpeting in the back of the car. B Any suggestions for cleanup and getting > rid of the smell? B It's probably a decade since we built them and I have no > recollection of what we did for cleanup back then or how hard it was to do. > Right now the plan is kitty litter, but I'm not sure it'll do much for the > smell or get it all out of the carpet. > Can you remove the carpets? If you can, they can be cleaned. If you can't, pay someone who owns a suitable to do it. You'll have less than satisfactory results with any bulk absorbant. (though if you've got puddles of the stuff, get rid of them first.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From eric at megageek.com Mon Feb 21 19:22:15 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:22:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Gauge of wire Message-ID: I need to run a 50amp circuit about 50 or 60 feet. A calculator on the web says that 55' of 50amp circuit would require 10# wire. Does that sound right? Anyone know what the code states? Here is the calc... http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 21:04:46 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:04:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning up spilled mineral oil on carpet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 7:42 PM, wrote: > A trick I use when 'staging' a home for an open house if there are odors, > is to fill a bowl with white vinegar and place it in the room with the > smell. B In a few minutes, the smell is gone. I've cleaned oil out of lots of car carpets. You'll get nowhere useful with kitty litter, coffee, vinegar, baking soda, or the like. You need to remove all of the oil from the carpet. Carpets in modern cars are made polypropylene and nylon or polyester, which are all highly attractive to oil. Removing oil with solvents (if you can get them out of the car, detergent and water will work.) is the only way to get substantial amounts out. > > This will work well in a small space like a car, but it might not be a > permeant fix (it may work permanently however.) > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > > > > > David Scheidt > Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > 02/21/2011 15:13 > > To > Aric > cc > shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject > Re: [Shop-talk] Cleaning up spilled mineral oil on carpet > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Aric wrote: >> Howdy All, >> >> Long story short, it seems I didn't secure things too well when sending > some >> homebrew high voltage capacitors down to my brother's place and one of > them >> fell over and leaked an undertermined amount of mineral oil onto the >> carpeting in the back of the car. B Any suggestions for cleanup and > getting >> rid of the smell? B It's probably a decade since we built them and I > have > no >> recollection of what we did for cleanup back then or how hard it was to > do. >> Right now the plan is kitty litter, but I'm not sure it'll do much for > the >> smell or get it all out of the carpet. >> > > Can you remove the carpets? B If you can, they can be cleaned. B If you > can't, pay someone who owns a suitable to do it. B You'll have less > than satisfactory results with any bulk absorbant. B (though if you've > got puddles of the stuff, get rid of them first.) > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From marka at maracing.com Mon Feb 21 21:09:34 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:09:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Gauge of wire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I need to run a 50amp circuit about 50 or 60 feet. > > A calculator on the web says that 55' of 50amp circuit would require 10# > wire. Does that sound right? Anyone know what the code states? > > Here is the calc... > > http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm That sounds pretty light to me. Rule of thumb says a 30A circuit needs 10 gauge, IIRC. In my house, I'd probably use 6 gauge for that run. Watch the calculators, because they sometimes assume things that aren't true I think. I've used them and come up with lighter wire gauges then were commonly accepted for stuff. I think its the difference between "always works" and "only works when you can engineer / control everything about it." For me, the cost savings has never justified trying to do the minimum. Mark From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 07:06:08 2011 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 08:06:08 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Gauge of wire In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I agree with Mark. When I was teaching house wiring in a HS vocational setting, we used #10 for 30 Amp driers. I do not remember what size we used for the range. It was either #6 or #8. Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From paul.mele at usermail.com Tue Feb 22 08:32:24 2011 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:32:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Gauge of wire In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <008001cbd2a5$b523f320$1f6bd960$@mele@usermail.com> Here's a table of wire ampacity...the max amps for any gauge and type of wire (cu, al, THHN, UF, etc) before it would get too hot. Heat in the wire is proportional to the (square of ) the current [amps] in the wire. A larger diameter wire, with lower resistance, will carry more current before it gets "too hot". [ BTW, the "HH" in "THHN" is the temperature rating of the insulation; "HH" means HOT HOT (very technical), but translates to 90 degrees C, IIRC]. Ampacity doesn't change with length. http://www.armstrongssupply.com/wire_chart.htm Voltage drops due to the resistance of the wire as well, but the resistance is additive for length, as well as being constant for wire diameter [gauge]; it is inversely proportional, meaning that large diameter wire [smaller gauge number...don't you love the American measuring systems???] has lower resistance, and hence a small drop in voltage per foot of wire. The drop adds up as you go further. Think water pressure in a 200 ft long garden hose. for a given application, heat [amps] or voltage drop [length] will be the dominant factor to choosing gauge. --- you could use 8 ga Cu THHN for 55 amps; although 10 ga wire would not have over 3% voltage drop, it isn't rated for over 40 Amps, meaning it would get too hot if you used it, even though the voltage drop would be OK HTH a little in understanding why both limits need to be considered. PM <<>> From jszwed at energykinetics.com Thu Feb 24 06:46:09 2011 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:46:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Free CAD program Message-ID: <27BD823ECD2347E18BF81E7B2F0953A4@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Someone was looking for a free CAD program a little while back. This is a link to a free 2D program from Dassault (they make SolidWorks). I haven't tried it yet but thought I would pass it on in case someone else wanted it. http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/free-cad-software Thanks, Joe Szwed From jblair1948 at cox.net Thu Feb 24 09:48:00 2011 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:48:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - CA & AZ concerts Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110224114251.04c40d08@cox.net> Hey gang, The Army Field Band will be out west in April 2011. As you know my oldest son is a Clarinetist with them. If you want an very enjoyable evening out, at basically no cost check out their FREE concerts: Date Time City Concert Information April 10 3:00 PM Huntington Beach, CA Edison High School Gymnasium For information call 301-677-6586. April 11 7:00 PM Palm Springs, CA Sunrise Park For information call 760-323-8276 April 12 6:30 PM Lake Havasu City, AZ London Bridge Beach - Community Stage For information call 928-453-3444 April 13 7:00 PM Coolidge, AZ Central Arizona College-Signal Peak Campus - Don P. Pence Center For information call 301-677-6586. April 15 7:00 PM Sierra Vista, AZ Buena High School Performing Arts Center For information call 301-677-6586 April 16 7:00 PM Sun City West, AZ Beardsley Park Gazebo For information call 301-677-6586. April 17 7:00 PM Sun City, AZ Sun Bowl Amphitheater For information call 301-677-6586. April 20 7:30 PM Wickenburg, AZ Del E Webb Center for the Performing Arts For information call 928-684-6624 John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Thu Feb 24 20:22:48 2011 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:22:48 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wire gauge: 60 feet at 50A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F474AC3BDAF4C2C94A302990163A230@delld520> <<< I need to run a 50amp circuit about 50 or 60 feet. A calculator on the web says that 55' of 50amp circuit would require 10# wire. Does that sound right? Anyone know what the code states? >>> I'm not sure you got the answer you were looking for but I just looked in the NEC (old, 1999 version, but this stuff stays pretty much the same table B-310-1) and the table reads that with THHN wire in a conduit you'd need at least 6 gauge wire. 8ga maxes out at 48 amps, 6ga at 65 amps. For direct burial cable you can use 8ga. The limits are based on temperature rise; there is much better heat flow away from a buried cable than one in a conduit. The calculator will give you the info for voltage drops, but you still must meet the minimum wire gauge for the current. Mark not a licensed electrician Miller From eric at megageek.com Fri Feb 25 10:37:34 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:37:34 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid Message-ID: OK, I normally don't do tranny flushes myself because I don't have a machine to do it. But, my buddy is asking me to do it and I'm thinking now might be a good time to buy a machine. Here are my questions... At about $170 per fluid flush, a machine is paid for after four or five jobs, so I can justify the cost. Anyone know of good machines to get, brands to stay away from? Are they types or styles that work better/worst? (remember, I know nothing about these machines.) A few of the posts I've been reading elsewhere mentioned that some cars advise AGAINST using the machines. They say to just drain, refill, drive a little bit and repeat. Is there a reason to NOT use a machine to flush it? Finally, my buddy's 2003 Honda Accord needs a change and he is getting a mechanic that is telling him all that he needs is a drain and refill. He is willing to pay me to do the change, which would put me $170 closer to having this machine paid for, but if it only needs a drain/refill, I can't justify the machine. What is the deal with Honda Accords? Thanks! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From pethier at comcast.net Fri Feb 25 11:26:50 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:26:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1435771378.1546400.1298658410291.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Are you talking about manual or automatic transmissions? Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: eric at megageek.com > To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 11:37:34 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid > > OK, I normally don't do tranny flushes myself because I don't have a > machine to do it. > > But, my buddy is asking me to do it and I'm thinking now might be a > good > time to buy a machine. Here are my questions... > > At about $170 per fluid flush, a machine is paid for after four or > five > jobs, so I can justify the cost. > > Anyone know of good machines to get, brands to stay away from? Are > they > types or styles that work better/worst? (remember, I know nothing > about > these machines.) > > A few of the posts I've been reading elsewhere mentioned that some > cars > advise AGAINST using the machines. They say to just drain, refill, > drive > a little bit and repeat. Is there a reason to NOT use a machine to > flush > it? > > Finally, my buddy's 2003 Honda Accord needs a change and he is getting > a > mechanic that is telling him all that he needs is a drain and refill. > He > is willing to pay me to do the change, which would put me $170 closer > to > having this machine paid for, but if it only needs a drain/refill, I > can't > justify the machine. > > What is the deal with Honda Accords? From ericm at lne.com Fri Feb 25 11:33:54 2011 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:33:54 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110225183354.GA18661@slack> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:37:34PM -0500, eric at megageek.com wrote: > A few of the posts I've been reading elsewhere mentioned that some cars > advise AGAINST using the machines. They say to just drain, refill, drive > a little bit and repeat. Is there a reason to NOT use a machine to flush > it? Yea, it stirs up the crap that's settled in the bottom of the oil pan and sends it back through your tranny. I've heard of VW eurovan transmissions dying not long after a flush. I just change my fluid and clean out the pan, and replace the filter. The drawback is that a simple fluid change doesn't change all the oil. In the Eurovan about 40% is still in the torque converter. So I change the fluid more often. That's useful for a eurovan anyhow because their transmissions are a known weak point. Eric From eric at megageek.com Fri Feb 25 11:15:11 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:15:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: <1435771378.1546400.1298658410291.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: All the trans are automatic. (Is there a difference in changing them?) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson pethier at comcast.net 02/25/2011 13:10 To eric at megageek.com cc shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid Are you talking about manual or automatic transmissions? Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: eric at megageek.com > To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 11:37:34 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid > > OK, I normally don't do tranny flushes myself because I don't have a > machine to do it. > > But, my buddy is asking me to do it and I'm thinking now might be a > good > time to buy a machine. Here are my questions... > > At about $170 per fluid flush, a machine is paid for after four or > five > jobs, so I can justify the cost. > > Anyone know of good machines to get, brands to stay away from? Are > they > types or styles that work better/worst? (remember, I know nothing > about > these machines.) > > A few of the posts I've been reading elsewhere mentioned that some > cars > advise AGAINST using the machines. They say to just drain, refill, > drive > a little bit and repeat. Is there a reason to NOT use a machine to > flush > it? > > Finally, my buddy's 2003 Honda Accord needs a change and he is getting > a > mechanic that is telling him all that he needs is a drain and refill. > He > is willing to pay me to do the change, which would put me $170 closer > to > having this machine paid for, but if it only needs a drain/refill, I > can't > justify the machine. > > What is the deal with Honda Accords? From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Feb 25 11:42:58 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:42:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D67F832.6050405@frontier.com> I believe the thinking is that a flush may push crap back into the transmission where it could clog oil passageways and cause more damage than it might prevent. I have a couple of Subaru Forresters. The older one had about 100K miles on it when I had a timing belt/head gasket service done. When I asked my Subaru service guy about a 100K transmission service, he suggested that I just do a drain/fill when I did my next two or three oil changes. I did this two or three times and at 125K I am not having any problems. Don't know anything about Accords other than that they are (or at least were) pretty good cars. eric at megageek.com wrote: > A few of the posts I've been reading elsewhere mentioned that some cars > advise AGAINST using the machines. They say to just drain, refill, drive > a little bit and repeat. Is there a reason to NOT use a machine to flush > i From strovato at optonline.net Fri Feb 25 11:44:56 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:44:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid Message-ID: <0LH600LPLS2QK840@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I could never justify that purchase for non-commercial use. One option is to just drop the pan and change the filter. Add a drain plug if not equipped. You certainly leave a lot of old fluid this way, but now draining and refilling is easy. You can do that more often, without filter changes every time, and even with the old fluid left behind, the "average" fluid will stay pretty fresh. Another alternative is a "do it yourself" type flush. Keep in mind that running the transmission dry is a very bad thing, so you have to be very careful if you try anything like this. Here are some instructions I read, specifically geared to a Chevy Suburban: Have +16 quarts of tranny fluid on hand. 5/16" dia hose about 4 feet long. 5 gallon plastic paint bucket (empty) with lid. Tranny fluid funnel (long, thin with smaller dia end to fit into tranny dip stick tube). Pan gasket, filter. Helper. Disconnect the line from the tranny to the radiator. I'm considering making a fitting to connect to the return line connection at the radiator (later). Connect the 5/16" dia hose to the line from the tranny and snake it away from serpentine belt and into the 5 gallon catch bucket. Take out tranny dip stick and replace with funnel. Have several tranny fluid bottle opened and ready to pour. Start engine and the fluid will flow out of the line into the catch bucket. You have 5 quarts worth to work with before the tranny pan goes dry. Turn off engine. Do the standard pan drop and filter replacement. The pan should be empty or nearly empty. Button up. Pour new fluid into the funnel. Gravity feed, so it will come out faster than you can pour, so watch the amount and shut off the engine to catch up. Restart and cycle this through a few times. When all 16 quarts are gone, you've just done a transfusion flush and got about 90%-95% of the old fluid out. Reconnect all and you are done. Log into in your records. Recycle center will take the old tranny fluid. Follow this link if you'd like to find this, and a bunch of other transmission discussions: http://aplsweb.com/Topics/Transmisions.htm -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 12:37 PM 2/25/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: >OK, I normally don't do tranny flushes myself because I don't have a >machine to do it. > >But, my buddy is asking me to do it and I'm thinking now might be a good >time to buy a machine. Here are my questions... > >At about $170 per fluid flush, a machine is paid for after four or five >jobs, so I can justify the cost. From ericm at lne.com Fri Feb 25 11:56:14 2011 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:56:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: References: <1435771378.1546400.1298658410291.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20110225185614.GB18661@slack> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 01:15:11PM -0500, eric at megageek.com wrote: > All the trans are automatic. (Is there a difference in changing them?) Manuals don't need a flush to exchange the fluid in the torque converter. Eric From marka at maracing.com Fri Feb 25 11:56:45 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:56:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 25 Feb 2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > All the trans are automatic. (Is there a difference in changing them?) In a manual trans 'all' the fluid comes out when you pull the drain plug. There's no torque converter or coolers to hold a bunch of fluid. Mark From eric at megageek.com Fri Feb 25 11:44:35 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:44:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion Message-ID: Ok, I know I post alot of questions here. But I'd figure I'd post a few of my solutions here as well. A while back I was asking about the force applied to the tire changer from Harbor Freight. With the answers I got here, I made, what I consider, a rather elegant solution to the mounting problem. Again, I can't mount in my floor because of the radiant tubes. Also, I don't want to put this thing in the middle of the floor anywhere. So, I came up with way that the changer can 'fold' up to my table when not in use, but quickly pulls out and with one nut, tightens super sturdy! Here is a link to my instrucable on it... < http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-mount-a-tire-changer-without-bolting-to-the/ > Funny side note, now that I posted this and I'm sure others can use the idea, Harbor Freight no longer offerers that changer on their site! DOH!!! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Feb 25 12:30:51 2011 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:30:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: <20110225183354.GA18661@slack> References: <20110225183354.GA18661@slack> Message-ID: <000c01cbd522$83a19440$8ae4bcc0$@ameritech.net> A friend owns a large transmission shop (28 service bays in one third of the shop, bench work area in another third, plus a converter department and parts storage, locker room, etc. in the last section). He has a couple of transmission flushing machines, but they never use them. As Eric Murray said, it stirs up settled material and can often cause failures which might otherwise have never occurred, or would at least have taken a couple more years to happen. One of the worst practices in flushing, as seen at many quick-lube shops and at least some car dealers, is to just flush the trans and never remove the pan and change the filter. Really, the pan should be cleaned and the filter changed before flushing, and at the very least the pan should be cleaned again and the filter checked after flushing, with another filter replacement again if there's any indication of more debris having come down. The best thing is still just to service a transmission regularly, going no longer than the manufacturer recommends for "severe service". Karl From ericm at lne.com Fri Feb 25 12:38:24 2011 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:38:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: <0LH600LPLS2QK840@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0LH600LPLS2QK840@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20110225193824.GC18661@slack> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 01:44:56PM -0500, Steven Trovato wrote: > > Another alternative is a "do it yourself" type flush. Keep in mind > that running the transmission dry is a very bad thing, so you have > to be very careful if you try anything like this. Here are some > instructions I read, specifically geared to a Chevy Suburban: [..] Couldn't you drain the trans and fill it at the same time? With the engine running so the trans pump is exchanging fluid. If you could keep the drain and rate low enough that the fill could keep up, you wouldn't be running the trans with the fluid low. Eric From strovato at optonline.net Fri Feb 25 13:04:22 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:04:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: <20110225193824.GC18661@slack> References: <0LH600LPLS2QK840@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20110225193824.GC18661@slack> Message-ID: <0LH6006RRVTLU8X0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> That's pretty much what those instructions do. Running the fluid low isn't really a problem. It's running the pump dry that is the problem. You can't really control the drain rate, because you are using the transmission pump to do that. So you just turn off the engine to allow the filling to catch up. At 02:38 PM 2/25/2011, Eric Murray wrote: >Couldn't you drain the trans and fill it at the same time? >With the engine running so the trans pump is exchanging fluid. > >If you could keep the drain and rate low enough that the >fill could keep up, you wouldn't be running the trans with >the fluid low. From strovato at optonline.net Fri Feb 25 13:11:51 2011 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:11:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion Message-ID: <0LH600KEJW3LA300@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> The only problem I see with that is that I don't happen to have a conveniently located super-heavy table. One thing I do have, though, is cars. So, I was thinking about doing something where the two support arms could go to pads under two tires on a car. Haven't tried it, though. It's just a concept. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 01:44 PM 2/25/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: >So, I came up with way that the changer can 'fold' up to my table when not >in use, but quickly pulls out and with one nut, tightens super sturdy! From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Feb 25 16:19:43 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:19:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: <20110225183354.GA18661@slack> Message-ID: <20110225231943.6P458.213513.root@cdptpa-web18-z01> Some cars with external coolers and hoses can be changed this way- Remove the pan, drain the fluid, replace the pan. Fill up with as much fluid as you can put in it close to its theoretical full capacity. Pull the supply line off of the cooler and stick it in a bucket. Start the car and let it idle, and watch the fluid that pumps out, when the fluid stops or changes color to new fluid, turn off the engine. Fill up to the proper level. With my old car you could pull the pan and drain out maybe 6 or 8 quarts, but you could pour 16 quarts into the trans and using the method above pump almost all of it back out before it switched from pumping old dirty fluid to clean fluid. > I just change my fluid and clean out the pan, and replace the filter. > > The drawback is that a simple fluid change doesn't change all the oil. > In the Eurovan about 40% is still in the torque converter. From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Feb 25 16:21:36 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:21:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Changing transmission fluid In-Reply-To: <0LH600LPLS2QK840@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20110225232136.EOEBS.213526.root@cdptpa-web18-z01> Darn, I posted before I read your message. > Another alternative is a "do it yourself" type flush. Keep in mind > that running the transmission dry is a very bad thing, so you have to > be very careful if you try anything like this. Here are some > instructions I read, specifically geared to a Chevy Suburban: > > > Have +16 quarts of tranny fluid on hand. From jandkstone99 at msn.com Fri Feb 25 17:12:17 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:12:17 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil Message-ID: The aluminum head on my Alpine was repaired at some point in the past with a helicoil insert. I am in the midst of replacing the intake manifold and the coil threads seem to have been damaged (I believe the end of the coil is bent) so I need to remove the old one and insert a new one. I really do not want to have to remove the head and am hoping I can just do with with the head still installed. I have never worked with helicoils before, but the process seems simple enough. However, there is not much online on removing them. Does anyone here have any suggestions or advice? I see that there is a removal tool out there, but that seems like overkill for one coil. Can I use a screw extractor? Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew it with a needle nose pliers? Any recommendations or suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks. From pat at hornesystemstx.com Fri Feb 25 17:24:18 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:24:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D684832.8040901@hornesystemstx.com> Jim, If you try to unscrew the helicoil using the bent piece at thee bottom of the hole it won't work. When the helicoil is installed it uses that tang to reduce the diameter of the insert slightly, allowing it to be screwed into the hole. Trying to turn it backwards will make the insert tighter. If you mean that the outside of the insert is bent and you can get hold of it, then yes, you can unscrew the insert with that. Is the hole blind, or does it open to some area that you can get to from the back side? If you can get to the back you can run the insert farther in until it falls out, then retrieve it from there. I wouldn't want to leave it inside the engine under any circumstances. If you have a Dremel and a small grinding burr, you should be able to get inside the hole and cut the insert into rings that can be pulled out one by one - assuming that the hole is big enough! Good luck. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Stone, On 2/25/2011 6:12 PM: > The aluminum head on my Alpine was repaired at some point in the past with a > helicoil insert. I am in the midst of replacing the intake manifold and the > coil threads seem to have been damaged (I believe the end of the coil is bent) > so I need to remove the old one and insert a new one. I really do not want > to have to remove the head and am hoping I can just do with with the head > still installed. I have never worked with helicoils before, but the process > seems simple enough. However, there is not much online on removing them. > Does anyone here have any suggestions or advice? I see that there is a > removal tool out there, but that seems like overkill for one coil. Can I use > a screw extractor? Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew it with a needle > nose pliers? Any recommendations or suggestions will be appreciated. > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Feb 25 17:46:36 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:46:36 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <4D684832.8040901@hornesystemstx.com> References: <4D684832.8040901@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <4D684D6C.6050509@tx.rr.com> Can they be removed with a standard square EZ-out? > If you try to unscrew the helicoil using the bent piece at thee bottom > of the hole it won't work. When the helicoil is installed it uses that > tang to reduce the diameter of the insert slightly, allowing it to be > screwed into the hole. Trying to turn it backwards will make the > insert tighter. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Feb 25 17:56:15 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:56:15 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall> > Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew > it with a needle > nose pliers? That has worked for me in the past, but as Pat said it needs to be the top of the Helicoil (so it tends to shrink while you unscrew it). IMO anything that tends to spread it (like an easy-out) will just lock it in place tighter. -- Randall From pat at hornesystemstx.com Fri Feb 25 17:58:09 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:58:09 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <4D684D6C.6050509@tx.rr.com> References: <4D684832.8040901@hornesystemstx.com> <4D684D6C.6050509@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4D685021.2010707@hornesystemstx.com> Nope, anything that would grip the inside of the insert will just tighten it into the hole. If you have someone local that has an electrochemical machining machine that can be used with the head in the car, that will also work, but it requires that the hole and area around it be flooded with a fluid, so the hole needs to be on top of the head. Peace, Pat Thusly spake BJNoSHOV8, On 2/25/2011 6:46 PM: > Can they be removed with a standard square EZ-out? > >> If you try to unscrew the helicoil using the bent piece at thee >> bottom of the hole it won't work. When the helicoil is installed it >> uses that tang to reduce the diameter of the insert slightly, >> allowing it to be screwed into the hole. Trying to turn it backwards >> will make the insert tighter. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Feb 25 19:10:59 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:10:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall> References: <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4D686133.2000909@tx.rr.com> Well I didn't know, and EZ-outs are tapered a bit so they might grab just the coil at the top and unscrew the coil just like if you could grab the end of the coil at the top. >> Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew >> it with a needle >> nose pliers? > That has worked for me in the past, but as Pat said it needs to be the top > of the Helicoil (so it tends to shrink while you unscrew it). IMO anything > that tends to spread it (like an easy-out) will just lock it in place > tighter. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Feb 25 19:18:53 2011 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:18:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall> References: <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC> I have been able to remove them that way - if you can grab the *top* coil and twist it tighter so it releases its grip on the piece it is in, you can unwind/remove it. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil >> Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew >> it with a needle nose pliers? > > That has worked for me in the past, but as Pat said it needs to be the top > of the Helicoil (so it tends to shrink while you unscrew it). IMO > anything > that tends to spread it (like an easy-out) will just lock it in place > tighter. > > -- Randall From pat at hornesystemstx.com Fri Feb 25 19:57:47 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:57:47 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <4D686133.2000909@tx.rr.com> References: <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall> <4D686133.2000909@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4D686C2B.3030505@hornesystemstx.com> It can't hurt much to try, but don't hammer the ez-out in, just push it in by hand. Make sure it has good sharp corners. A left hand drill bit might also work. Please let us know how you do. Peace, Pat Thusly spake BJNoSHOV8, On 2/25/2011 8:10 PM: > Well I didn't know, and EZ-outs are tapered a bit so they might grab > just the coil at the top and unscrew the coil just like if you could > grab the end of the coil at the top. > > >>> Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew >>> it with a needle >>> nose pliers? >> That has worked for me in the past, but as Pat said it needs to be >> the top >> of the Helicoil (so it tends to shrink while you unscrew it). IMO >> anything >> that tends to spread it (like an easy-out) will just lock it in place >> tighter. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From bk13 at earthlink.net Fri Feb 25 20:02:00 2011 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:02:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC> References: <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall> <03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net> I second this approach. Use a dental pick type tool to lift the top end out enough to grab with a needle nose pliers and it should unscrew. Brian On 2/25/2011 6:18 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > I have been able to remove them that way - if you can grab the *top* > coil and twist it tighter so it releases its grip on the piece it is > in, you can unwind/remove it. > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a > damaged helicoil > > >>> Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew >>> it with a needle nose pliers? >> >> That has worked for me in the past, but as Pat said it needs to be >> the top >> of the Helicoil (so it tends to shrink while you unscrew it). IMO >> anything >> that tends to spread it (like an easy-out) will just lock it in place >> tighter. >> >> -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From jandkstone99 at msn.com Fri Feb 25 20:11:19 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:11:19 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net> References: , <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall>, <03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC>, <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks guys. I'll give it a try tomorrow and report back. > Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:02:00 -0800 > From: bk13 at earthlink.net > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil > > I second this approach. Use a dental pick type tool to lift the top end > out enough to grab with a needle nose pliers and it should unscrew. > > Brian > > On 2/25/2011 6:18 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > > I have been able to remove them that way - if you can grab the *top* > > coil and twist it tighter so it releases its grip on the piece it is > > in, you can unwind/remove it. > > > > Eric Russell > > Mebane, NC > > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > > ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a > > damaged helicoil > > > > > >>> Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew > >>> it with a needle nose pliers? > >> > >> That has worked for me in the past, but as Pat said it needs to be > >> the top > >> of the Helicoil (so it tends to shrink while you unscrew it). IMO > >> anything > >> that tends to spread it (like an easy-out) will just lock it in place > >> tighter. > >> > >> -- Randall > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sat Feb 26 09:03:28 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 10:03:28 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: References: , , <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall>, , <03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC>, , <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net>, Message-ID: Well, the coil is out, but it wasn't easy and it wasn't pretty. It didn't unscrew so much as unravel. In pieces. (I tried one of my Easyouts to start, but the hole isn't deep enough to allow any of the threads on even my largest one to grab anything.) Gabbing an end with a needle nose and unscrewing resulted in it coming out in about three pieces. It never unscrewed - the pliers just made it small enough to pull out a piece without severely damaging the threads. So, now I am on to the next problem: replacing it. I am off to NAPA to buy a replacement, but I don't expect this to be a walk in the park either. I know now why the original failed. The thread hole is slightly enlarged around the outside edge of the coil, meaning the threads are only holding on the bottom. I think that lead to the damage that was preventing me from screwing the stud in and my struggles with the pliers only made it worse. To compound the problem, depth of the thread is limited by a head bolt that goes right through the hole, so I won't be able to use a punch to remove the tang on the coil. Right now I am thinking of screwing the coil in and leaving the tang; it can't be snapped off by the stud as the head bolt will stop it from moving. I am also thinking about packing the flared outside end with a little JB Weld. It don't expect that to add any real strength, but it might prevent the new coil from unraveling the next time around. At least, that is what I am thinking at the moment, but would appreciate any thoughts or opinions. Jim > From: jandkstone99 at msn.com > To: bk13 at earthlink.net; shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:11:19 -0600 > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil > > Thanks guys. I'll give it a try tomorrow and report back. > > > Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:02:00 -0800 > > From: bk13 at earthlink.net > > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil > > > > I second this approach. Use a dental pick type tool to lift the top end > > out enough to grab with a needle nose pliers and it should unscrew. > > > > Brian > > > > On 2/25/2011 6:18 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > > > I have been able to remove them that way - if you can grab the *top* > > > coil and twist it tighter so it releases its grip on the piece it is > > > in, you can unwind/remove it. > > > > > > Eric Russell > > > Mebane, NC > > > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > > > ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a > > > damaged helicoil > > > > > > > > >>> Bend the end of the coil more and unscrew > > >>> it with a needle nose pliers? > > >> > > >> That has worked for me in the past, but as Pat said it needs to be > > >> the top > > >> of the Helicoil (so it tends to shrink while you unscrew it). IMO > > >> anything > > >> that tends to spread it (like an easy-out) will just lock it in place > > >> tighter. > > >> > > >> -- Randall > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 26 09:12:45 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:12:45 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: References: , ,<16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall>, ,<03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC>, , <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net>, Message-ID: <178901cbd5d0$018ef110$0301a8c0@randall> > The thread hole is slightly > enlarged around the > outside edge of the coil, meaning the threads are only > holding on the bottom. Sounds like time to go to the next level, a Keensert or equivalent. If you do go with a Helicoil again, I would cut off the insert and leave no threads in the enlarged portion of the hole. They aren't going to be doing anything anyway. And if you can, convert to a stud in that location (so it can be screwed in to exactly the bottom of the hole). -- Randall From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sat Feb 26 09:41:12 2011 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 10:41:12 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: References: , , <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall>, , <03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC>, , <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net>, Message-ID: <4D692D28.2070407@hornesystemstx.com> Has anyone tried using a thread locker on a Helicoil insert? It may be necessary to run a bottom tap into the insert to clean any locker out of the threads, but that shouldn't be a problem. You might look for a threaded insert to use as a replacement. You drill a larger hole, tap it and run the insert into that hole. Similar to a Helicoil, but the insert is solid. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Stone, On 2/26/2011 10:03 AM: > Well, the coil is out, but it wasn't easy and it wasn't pretty. It didn't > unscrew so much as unravel. In pieces. (I tried one of my Easyouts to start, > but the hole isn't deep enough to allow any of the threads on even my largest > one to grab anything.) Gabbing an end with a needle nose and unscrewing > resulted in it coming out in about three pieces. It never unscrewed - the > pliers just made it small enough to pull out a piece without severely damaging > the threads. > > So, now I am on to the next problem: replacing it. I am off to NAPA to buy a > replacement, but I don't expect this to be a walk in the park either. I know > now why the original failed. The thread hole is slightly enlarged around the > outside edge of the coil, meaning the threads are only holding on the bottom. > I think that lead to the damage that was preventing me from screwing the stud > in and my struggles with the pliers only made it worse. To compound the > problem, depth of the thread is limited by a head bolt that goes right through > the hole, so I won't be able to use a punch to remove the tang on the coil. > Right now I am thinking of screwing the coil in and leaving the tang; it can't > be snapped off by the stud as the head bolt will stop it from moving. I am > also thinking about packing the flared outside end with a little JB Weld. It > don't expect that to add any real strength, but it might prevent the new coil > from unraveling the next time around. > > At least, that is what I am thinking at the moment, but would appreciate any > thoughts or opinions. > > Jim -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 26 10:22:17 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 09:22:17 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <4D692D28.2070407@hornesystemstx.com> References: , ,<16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall>, ,<03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC>, , <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net>, <4D692D28.2070407@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <17a201cbd5d9$b7afc380$0301a8c0@randall> > Has anyone tried using a thread locker on a Helicoil insert? You mean like Loctite? I always do. Just a drop on the outside of the insert, near the tip, before screwing it into place. Give it a little time to set before breaking the tang and flushing the hole with solvent, then use a little anti-seize on the bolt. -- Randall From cavanadd at frontier.com Sat Feb 26 12:28:50 2011 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:28:50 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion In-Reply-To: <0LH600KEJW3LA300@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0LH600KEJW3LA300@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4D695472.2020002@frontier.com> Did we talk about welding a piece of square stock to the bottom of the tire changer and shoving it into a car's receiver hitch? Steven Trovato wrote: > The only problem I see with that is that I don't happen to have a > conveniently located super-heavy table. One thing I do have, though, is > cars. So, I was thinking about doing something where the two support > arms could go to pads under two tires on a car. Haven't tried it, > though. It's just a concept. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 01:44 PM 2/25/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > >> So, I came up with way that the changer can 'fold' up to my table when >> not >> in use, but quickly pulls out and with one nut, tightens super sturdy! > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Sat Feb 26 13:13:35 2011 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:13:35 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion In-Reply-To: <4D695472.2020002@frontier.com> References: <0LH600KEJW3LA300@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, <4D695472.2020002@frontier.com> Message-ID: It was discussed at least some. Wouldn't you need to use two to eliminate the twisting. Moose's solution uses the triangle mounting to serve that purpose. Rich White Central, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF###L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:28:50 -0800 > From: cavanadd at frontier.com > To: strovato at optonline.net > CC: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion > > Did we talk about welding a piece of square stock to the bottom of the > tire changer and shoving it into a car's receiver hitch? > > Steven Trovato wrote: > > The only problem I see with that is that I don't happen to have a > > conveniently located super-heavy table. One thing I do have, though, is > > cars. So, I was thinking about doing something where the two support > > arms could go to pads under two tires on a car. Haven't tried it, > > though. It's just a concept. > > > > -Steve Trovato > > strovato at optonline.net > > > > At 01:44 PM 2/25/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > > > > >> So, I came up with way that the changer can 'fold' up to my table when > >> not > >> in use, but quickly pulls out and with one nut, tightens super sturdy! > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From eric at megageek.com Sat Feb 26 13:04:10 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:04:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion In-Reply-To: <4D695472.2020002@frontier.com> Message-ID: Yes we did. But the problem with that is that you need 360 degree access to the changer. I couldn't figure out how to best work it out. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "David C." 02/26/2011 02:12 PM To Steven Trovato cc eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion Did we talk about welding a piece of square stock to the bottom of the tire changer and shoving it into a car's receiver hitch? Steven Trovato wrote: > The only problem I see with that is that I don't happen to have a > conveniently located super-heavy table. One thing I do have, though, is > cars. So, I was thinking about doing something where the two support > arms could go to pads under two tires on a car. Haven't tried it, > though. It's just a concept. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 01:44 PM 2/25/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > >> So, I came up with way that the changer can 'fold' up to my table when >> not >> in use, but quickly pulls out and with one nut, tightens super sturdy! > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From pethier at comcast.net Sat Feb 26 16:48:43 2011 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:48:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion In-Reply-To: <1160819804.1606986.1298763785758.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <308898592.1607170.1298764123701.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> What about attaching it to a panel big enough to stand on? B Panel needs to be strong, and need not be attached to the floor or anything else. B Remember the forces you put on the machine while operating it are all on your feet through your body. There would be no lateral forces between the panel and the floor. B I'm thinking maybe a couple of pieces of 3/4" plywood sandwiching some 2x4s. Through-bolt the machine to the top plywood with huge washers or a substantial backing plate, then build the rest of the panel. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From eric at megageek.com Sat Feb 26 18:01:19 2011 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:01:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion In-Reply-To: <308898592.1607170.1298764123701.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: That would work, but it is a pain to store. I used to have it mounted to a pallet, but that got to be a pain and that is why I made this mount. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson pethier at comcast.net 02/26/2011 18:32 To eric at megageek.com cc shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net, "David C." Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion What about attaching it to a panel big enough to stand on? Panel needs to be strong, and need not be attached to the floor or anything else. Remember the forces you put on the machine while operating it are all on your feet through your body. There would be no lateral forces between the panel and the floor. I'm thinking maybe a couple of pieces of 3/4" plywood sandwiching some 2x4s. Through-bolt the machine to the top plywood with huge washers or a substantial backing plate, then build the rest of the panel. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2011 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 20:10:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil In-Reply-To: <178901cbd5d0$018ef110$0301a8c0@randall> References: , , , <16f801cbd54f$f8785740$0301a8c0@randall>, , , <03450737A18C40969F4610DADE8A7B56@EricJRussellPC>, , , <4D686D28.4030209@earthlink.net>, , , , <178901cbd5d0$018ef110$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: So, just to wrap this up: a new Helicoil did the trick. I bought a kit at Napa that included a new tap, the setting tool and bunch of coils. Running the tap through the old hole worked almost too well and seemed to give me new threads even in the area near the surface where there were none before. I don't know how that would be possible, unless the old one was somehow smaller on the outside but still the same on the inside. Regardless, I followed Randall's advice and cut off one complete thread from the outside which I think will help it from unraveling later. I did use a stud, although there was one there to begin with. Everything held tight and the car is back together and I took it out for a spin this afternoon. This is the first time I can remember when I screwed around with the intake manifold and didn't have to find and correct a vacuum leak afterwards! My thanks to everyone who provided advice and suggestions. Jim > From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:12:45 -0800 > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a damaged helicoil > > > The thread hole is slightly > > enlarged around the > > outside edge of the coil, meaning the threads are only > > holding on the bottom. > > Sounds like time to go to the next level, a Keensert or equivalent. > > If you do go with a Helicoil again, I would cut off the insert and leave no > threads in the enlarged portion of the hole. They aren't going to be doing > anything anyway. And if you can, convert to a stud in that location (so it > can be screwed in to exactly the bottom of the hole). > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From marka at maracing.com Sun Feb 27 21:16:20 2011 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:16:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Tire changer mount, the conclusion In-Reply-To: <308898592.1607170.1298764123701.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <308898592.1607170.1298764123701.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, 26 Feb 2011, pethier at comcast.net wrote: > What about attaching it to a panel big enough to stand on? Its like Back to the Future around here! :-) Mark From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 21:33:59 2011 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 23:33:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. Message-ID: I just saw a news story about home improvement projects you shouldn't do your self. (I'm not going to name it, because well, it's crap, and screw their advertisers.) It lists; tilling plumbing wiring window and door installs ceiling fans structural work siding roofing painting cleaning the gutters. The reasons given are "trust the professionals" and "you're too stupid". I'm not quite sure what they mean to leave on the list. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Mon Feb 28 22:21:23 2011 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 23:21:23 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6C8253.7000808@tx.rr.com> I've done everything on the list. (And don't you mean "tiling" instead of "tilling"?) Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. > I just saw a news story about home improvement projects you shouldn't > do your self. It lists: > tilling > plumbing > wiring > window and door installs > ceiling fans > structural work > siding > roofing > painting > cleaning the gutters From jibjib at att.net Mon Feb 28 22:23:25 2011 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:23:25 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D26612405F948CFA46836D85716432B@EntCent> David, It's like the labels on the back of equipment most of us open up to work on regularly. "No user serviceable parts inside." I have just one work. . . . . HA! Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Scheidt Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 8:34 PM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. I just saw a news story about home improvement projects you shouldn't do your self. (I'm not going to name it, because well, it's crap, and screw their advertisers.) It lists; tilling plumbing wiring window and door installs ceiling fans structural work siding roofing painting cleaning the gutters. The reasons given are "trust the professionals" and "you're too stupid". I'm not quite sure what they mean to leave on the list. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Feb 28 22:40:06 2011 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:40:06 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] gah. Moron press. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1b0f01cbd7d3$1f1b5f70$0301a8c0@randall> > The reasons given are "trust the professionals" and "you're > too stupid". Worst part is, a significant portion of the population believes them! -- Randall