From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Apr  1 20:05:17 2011
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 22:05:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
Message-ID: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>

I will soon be replacing my BBQ grill and need to decide if I should stay with
natural gas or switch to propane.  This may seem like a strange thing to
ponder, given the fact that we already have a gas line in place, but our
experience to date with natural gas is less than satisfactory.  There was
already a grill on our porch when we bought the house, a big old Charbroil.
It worked ok, but never seemed to get quite as hot as our old propane grill
had.  The Charbroil gave up the ghost at about the same time as my parents
moved and we were given their relatively new (circa 2005) Weber Genesis grill
that also ran on natural gas.  We have never been happy with that; it just
doesn't get hot enough to do a good job with steaks and burgers.  Worse than
the Charbroil.  My mother also complained about this when they had it.

I've researched gas grills online and find fairly consistent pros and cons,
but lower heat output doesn't seem to be one of the cons associated with
natural gas.  Does anyone on this list have experience with natural gas?  Have
I just had bad luck with the two natural gas grills I've owned?  I certainly
like never having to run out and get tanks refilled, but don't want to buy an
expensive grill that can't cook a great steak.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 20:29:06 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:29:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> I will soon be replacing my BBQ grill and need to decide if I should stay
with
> natural gas or switch to propane. B This may seem like a strange thing to
> ponder, given the fact that we already have a gas line in place, but our
> experience to date with natural gas is less than satisfactory. B There was
> already a grill on our porch when we bought the house, a big old Charbroil.
> It worked ok, but never seemed to get quite as hot as our old propane grill
> had. B The Charbroil gave up the ghost at about the same time as my parents
> moved and we were given their relatively new (circa 2005) Weber Genesis
grill
> that also ran on natural gas. B We have never been happy with that; it just
> doesn't get hot enough to do a good job with steaks and burgers. B Worse
than
> the Charbroil. B My mother also complained about this when they had it.
>
> I've researched gas grills online and find fairly consistent pros and cons,
> but lower heat output doesn't seem to be one of the cons associated with
> natural gas. B Does anyone on this list have experience with natural gas?
B Have
> I just had bad luck with the two natural gas grills I've owned? B I
certainly
> like never having to run out and get tanks refilled, but don't want to buy
an
> expensive grill that can't cook a great steak.


Did you ever investigate the size of your line and the pressure?  Or
if the grill has the right orrifices for
natural gas?

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Fri Apr  1 21:03:43 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 00:03:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1104012358450.16013@itonami.pair.com>

    I have a combo grill, natural gas and charcoal ( make and model escape 
me at the moment ).  I prefer using the coal, but when in a hurry, will 
fire up the gas side and cook whatever.  Heat has never been problem, and 
I'm usually cooking real thick steaks or burgers.  I would think you 
aren't getting enough gas to burn.

--
  David Hillman

From fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net  Sat Apr  2 05:48:48 2011
From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net (Tom & Marge FitzGibbon)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 12:48:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

We have three grills - an MHP natural gas grill , CaharBroilB propane
grillB and a Weber kettle charcoal grill.B  The CharBroil propane grill never
really gets hot even enough, but both the charcoal and the natural gas grills
get extremely hot - sometimes too hot.B  The MHP natural gas grill gets hot
enough that I rarely cook with it on high.



I think the suggestion someone else made to check your gas line first is the
best first step.B  I assume you checked the burners and gas lines in your
grill.B  If you decide to replace your grill, I highly recommend the MHP.B 
Our first lasted 13 years, this one is going on 10.B  Unless they upgraded
their line they are pretty basic, but the cook great.



Good luck.



Tom


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Friday, April 1, 2011 11:29:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> I will soon be replacing my BBQ grill and need to decide if I should stay
with
> natural gas or switch to propane. B This may seem like a strange thing to
> ponder, given the fact that we already have a gas line in place, but our
> experience to date with natural gas is less than satisfactory. B There was
> already a grill on our porch when we bought the house, a big old Charbroil.
> It worked ok, but never seemed to get quite as hot as our old propane grill
> had. B The Charbroil gave up the ghost at about the same time as my parents
> moved and we were given their relatively new (circa 2005) Weber Genesis
grill
> that also ran on natural gas. B We have never been happy with that; it just
> doesn't get hot enough to do a good job with steaks and burgers. B Worse
than
> the Charbroil. B My mother also complained about this when they had it.
>
> I've researched gas grills online and find fairly consistent pros and cons,
> but lower heat output doesn't seem to be one of the cons associated with
> natural gas. B Does anyone on this list have experience with natural gas?
B Have
> I just had bad luck with the two natural gas grills I've owned? B I
certainly
> like never having to run out and get tanks refilled, but don't want to buy
an
> expensive grill that can't cook a great steak.


Did you ever investigate the size of your line and the pressure? B Or
if the grill has the right orrifices for
natural gas?

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation B $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Apr  2 06:35:11 2011
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 08:35:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com>,
	<989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <COL115-W19F3D0A6F9F031BE53E9E5CCA10@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  The grill definitely has the right jets for natural gas; it was
purchased directly from Weber (my father used to be a Weber distributor) and
came with the gas hook up lines.  I can't say for sure that the old one was
correct, although the previous owners didn't do much themselves so I assume it
was professionally installed.  Still, it is certainly possible that my line is
at fault, we didn't put it in and I never checked the output.  We don't have a
problem with any of the other gas appliances, so it would probably have to be
the line itself, rather than the house supply.  The line is 1/2" copper for
about 16 feet, then 1/4" for the last 2 feet.  Could that cause the pressure
to be too low?
Jim

Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 12:48:48 +0000
From: fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net
To: dmscheidt at gmail.com
CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net; jandkstone99 at msn.com
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills



We have three grills - an MHP natural gas grill , CaharBroil propane grill and
a Weber kettle charcoal grill.  The CharBroil propane grill never really gets
hot even enough, but both the charcoal and the natural gas grills get
extremely hot - sometimes too hot.  The MHP natural gas grill gets hot enough
that I rarely cook with it on high.

I think the suggestion someone else made to check your gas line first is the
best first step.  I assume you checked the burners and gas lines in your
grill.  If you decide to replace your grill, I highly recommend the MHP.  Our
first lasted 13 years, this one is going on 10.  Unless they upgraded their
line they are pretty basic, but the cook great.

Good luck.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Friday, April 1, 2011 11:29:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> I will soon be replacing my BBQ grill and need to decide if I should stay
with
> natural gas or switch to propane. B This may seem like a strange thing to
> ponder, given the fact that we already have a gas line in place, but our
> experience to date with natural gas is less than satisfactory. B There was
> already a grill on our porch when we bought the house, a big old Charbroil.
> It worked ok, but never seemed to get quite as hot as our old propane grill
> had. B The Charbroil gave up the ghost at about the same time as my parents
> moved and we were given their relatively new (circa 2005) Weber Genesis
grill
> that also ran on natural gas. B We have never been happy with that; it just
> doesn't get hot enough to do a good job with steaks and burgers. B Worse
than
> the Charbroil. B My mother also complained about this when they had it.
>
> I've researched gas grills online and find fairly consistent pros and cons,
> but lower heat output doesn't seem to be one of the cons associated with
> natural gas. B Does anyone on this list have experience with natural gas?
B Have
> I just had bad luck with the two natural gas grills I've owned? B I
certainly
> like never having to run out and get tanks refilled, but don't want to buy
an
> expensive grill that can't cook a great steak.


Did you ever investigate the size of your line and the pressure?  Or
if the grill has the right orrifices for
natural gas?

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fitzgibbon3 at comcast.net

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Apr  2 07:02:52 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 07:02:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com>
	<989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>

My neighbor converted his propane grill to natural gas, drilling out the
orifices.  It took a while to dial in the correct heat output on the burners
due to the operating pressures of each fuel and the energy content.  He
continued to open up the orifices until the burners fired correctly.  You
may not have sufficient pressure on your natural gas line.  Here are your
variables.

 

Propane contains about twice the energy in a given volume of gas.  

Propane normally works at about 11 inches of water column. 

Natural gas "typically" runs at around 7 inches of water column.  

 

I'd check your natural gas pressure (with burners lit) and insure it meets
the requirements of the grill.  Alternatively, you could light one burner,
note the flame size, then light the other four and see if the first one gets
smaller, but a pressure test is the best.

 

Jack

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 08:10:50 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 11:10:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com>
	<989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
> My neighbor converted his propane grill to natural gas, drilling out the
> orifices. B It took a while to dial in the correct heat output on the
burners
> due to the operating pressures of each fuel and the energy content. B He
> continued to open up the orifices until the burners fired correctly. B You
> may not have sufficient pressure on your natural gas line. B Here are your
> variables.
>
>
>
> Propane contains about twice the energy in a given volume of gas.

Which is a pretty silly way to measure, since mass/volume varies with
pressure.  Propane suppliers like it, because of the higher normal
working pressure makes propane look better.
The useful figure is energy content per unit of mass, and by that
measure, natural gas is about
7% higher energy denser (49 MJ/kg for NG, compared to 46 MJ/kg for
propane).  Actual numbers vary
a fair amount, since the constituents in the gas change based on
supplier and time of year.

>
> Propane normally works at about 11 inches of water column.
>
> Natural gas "typically" runs at around 7 inches of water column.

With a lot of variation.  In the stupid mcmansions around here, a 2
psig system is pretty common.  Meter regulator cuts supply pressure
from tens of psi to 2 psi, the house pipes are 2 psi, and a regulator
at each appliance cuts it to about 7 inches of water.  That lets them
use smaller pipe on the long runs to things like the pool heater and
the grill.

>
>
>
> I'd check your natural gas pressure (with burners lit) and insure it meets
> the requirements of the grill. B Alternatively, you could light one burner,
> note the flame size, then light the other four and see if the first one
gets
> smaller, but a pressure test is the best.
>
>

He doesn't need to do that: his pipe is undersized.  20 feet of 1/2"
pipe has a capacity of about 45 cubic feet, 45,000 btu/hr, but he
doesn't have that, he's got a 1/4" pipe.  I don't have a chart for the
capacity of 1/4 pipe, but I'm sure it's not 45Kbtu/hr.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Apr  2 08:45:18 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 08:45:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com><989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>
	<AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>

> his pipe is undersized.  20 feet of 1/2" pipe has a capacity of about 45
cubic feet, 45,000 btu/hr, but he doesn't have that, he's got a 1/4" pipe.
I don't have a chart for the capacity of 1/4 pipe, but I'm sure it's not
45Kbtu/hr.



Agreed.  The < inch pipe is likely the issue.  It is a very small pipe with
not much pressure behind it.   I didnt have that info when I responded, as
I posted before the first send and receive of the AM.



Jack

From mikey at b2systems.com  Sat Apr  2 09:24:30 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:24:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4D974DBE.1040301@b2systems.com>

   Go back to wood :)

  I have had the displeasure of cooking on propane and natural gas at 
friends houses, the natural gas units always seem to get much hotter 
than propane and also had better flame/heat control.  If the end of the 
world was coming and there were no more trees the only thing I would 
personally consider is gas.  Assuming you got a gas unit, look into your 
supply line, when I moved in here I had a gas line out to my garage and 
it was too small for my heater because of the distance we had to put in 
a larger line for the heater, you seem to have the same symptoms with 
your outdoor cooking unit (its not a BBQ unless its wood :)  sorry could 
not resist).   Gas just seems way better than Propane, apologies to Hank 
of King of the Hill.

     mike (2 wood BBQs, one Charcoal and one wood Pizza Oven so you know 
I am biased)

On 4/1/2011 8:05 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
> I will soon be replacing my BBQ grill and need to decide if I should stay with
> natural gas or switch to propane.  This may seem like a strange thing to
> ponder, given the fact that we already have a gas line in place, but our
> experience to date with natural gas is less than satisfactory.  There was
> already a grill on our porch when we bought the house, a big old Charbroil.
> It worked ok, but never seemed to get quite as hot as our old propane grill
> had.  The Charbroil gave up the ghost at about the same time as my parents
> moved and we were given their relatively new (circa 2005) Weber Genesis grill
> that also ran on natural gas.  We have never been happy with that; it just
> doesn't get hot enough to do a good job with steaks and burgers.  Worse than
> the Charbroil.  My mother also complained about this when they had it.
>
> I've researched gas grills online and find fairly consistent pros and cons,
> but lower heat output doesn't seem to be one of the cons associated with
> natural gas.  Does anyone on this list have experience with natural gas?  Have
> I just had bad luck with the two natural gas grills I've owned?  I certainly
> like never having to run out and get tanks refilled, but don't want to buy an
> expensive grill that can't cook a great steak.
> _______________________________________________

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Apr  2 10:48:32 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 10:48:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <4D974DBE.1040301@b2systems.com>
References: <COL115-W8FD985A3133E71C154228CCA10@phx.gbl>
	<4D974DBE.1040301@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <A31D9C4BB9DD476B941C115C0CF09E18@EntCent>

>   Go back to wood :)

LOL.  This is why I have not yet converted my propane unit to Natural gas,
even though I had a gas line brought out to the deck when I installed a gas
dryer.

I run my smoker on lump charcoal too.  Real fire is best for cooking!

Jack

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Apr  2 10:57:21 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 10:57:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com><989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>
	<AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <184401cbf15f$6a45d660$0301a8c0@randall>

> In the stupid mcmansions around here, a 2
> psig system is pretty common.  Meter regulator cuts supply pressure
> from tens of psi to 2 psi, the house pipes are 2 psi, and a regulator
> at each appliance cuts it to about 7 inches of water.  That lets them
> use smaller pipe on the long runs to things like the pool heater and
> the grill.

Which, stupid or not, would be one solution to the problem at hand (assuming
that running proper sized pipe is difficult).

-- Randall  

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Apr  2 13:06:44 2011
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:06:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com><989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>,
	<AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>,
	<D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>
Message-ID: <COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>

> > his pipe is undersized.  20 feet of 1/2" pipe has a capacity of about 45
> cubic feet, 45,000 btu/hr, but he doesn't have that, he's got a 1/4" pipe.
> I don't have a chart for the capacity of 1/4 pipe, but I'm sure it's not
> 45Kbtu/hr.
>
> Agreed.  The < inch pipe is likely the issue.  It is a very small pipe with
> not much pressure behind it.   I didn't have that info when I responded, as
> I posted before the first send and receive of the AM.
>

Thanks guys.  That makes a lot of sense.  Just to be sure we are all on the
same page, I want to be sure you noticed that only the last 2 feet of the line
is 1/4 inch.  The other 16 or so feet is 1/2 inch.  Does the last two feet
limit all that came before it?  If so, that would certainly be an easy fix.

As for the merits of wood/charcoal vs gas of any kind, I agree completely.
Nothing beats the taste of a real BBQ.  However, the convenience of gas is
hard to beat, especially when you are only cooking for one or two.  It is
awfully nice to just fire it up and grill a hot dog or a brat within minutes.
In the end for me, laziness beats out taste, or at least it will if I can get
the gas fire hot enough to properly grill!

Jim

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 14:39:58 2011
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 17:39:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com><989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>,
	<AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>,
	<D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>
	<COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4D9797AE.5080702@gmail.com>

Q:  Does the last two feet
limit all that came before it?

A:  Yes.  The smallest cross-section anywhere in the run will limit the flow.



Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at gmail.com
Columbus, IN
1966 Triumph TR4A
1973 MG Midget
1980 Triumph TR8
2007 Mazda RX8
2002 Yamaha FZ1
2003 Honda ST1300


On 4/2/2011 4:06 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
>>> his pipe is undersized.  20 feet of 1/2" pipe has a capacity of about 45
>>>        
>> cubic feet, 45,000 btu/hr, but he doesn't have that, he's got a 1/4" pipe.
>> I don't have a chart for the capacity of 1/4 pipe, but I'm sure it's not
>> 45Kbtu/hr.
>>
>> Agreed.  The<  inch pipe is likely the issue.  It is a very small pipe with
>> not much pressure behind it.   I didn't have that info when I responded, as
>> I posted before the first send and receive of the AM.
>>
>>      
>
> Thanks guys.  That makes a lot of sense.  Just to be sure we are all on the
> same page, I want to be sure you noticed that only the last 2 feet of the line
> is 1/4 inch.  The other 16 or so feet is 1/2 inch.  Does the last two feet
> limit all that came before it?  If so, that would certainly be an easy fix.
>
> As for the merits of wood/charcoal vs gas of any kind, I agree completely.
> Nothing beats the taste of a real BBQ.  However, the convenience of gas is
> hard to beat, especially when you are only cooking for one or two.  It is
> awfully nice to just fire it up and grill a hot dog or a brat within minutes.
> In the end for me, laziness beats out taste, or at least it will if I can get
> the gas fire hot enough to properly grill!
>
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Apr  2 15:12:04 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:12:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com><989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>,
	<AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>,
	<D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>
	<COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <188301cbf182$ff8ec420$0301a8c0@randall>

> Does the 
> last two feet
> limit all that came before it?

Don't forget, the area of the pipe is proportional to the square of the
diameter.  So your 1/4 pipe has only 1/4 the cross-sectional area of the
1/2" pipe.  Think of putting your thumb over the end of a hose.

Just for chuckles, I found an on-line calculator and put some numbers into
it.  At 1 cfm (about 60,000 Btu/h), the drop through 2 ft of 1/4" pipe is
more than the pressure at the regulator.

IMO even the 16 feet of 1/2" is reducing the output at least a little bit,
depending somewhat on how big the burner is.

-- Randall  

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 16:15:25 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 19:15:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <188301cbf182$ff8ec420$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com>
	<989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>
	<AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>
	<D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>
	<COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>
	<188301cbf182$ff8ec420$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim=BpYn06mFAUwfKfUedX9RT--PpFbjG7Nb7kBY@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> Does the
>> last two feet
>> limit all that came before it?
>
> Don't forget, the area of the pipe is proportional to the square of the
> diameter. B So your 1/4 pipe has only 1/4 the cross-sectional area of the
> 1/2" pipe. B Think of putting your thumb over the end of a hose.
>
> Just for chuckles, I found an on-line calculator and put some numbers into
> it. B At 1 cfm (about 60,000 Btu/h), the drop through 2 ft of 1/4" pipe is
> more than the pressure at the regulator.
>
> IMO even the 16 feet of 1/2" is reducing the output at least a little bit,
> depending somewhat on how big the burner is.
>

If it's really 18 feet to the regulator, and it's not a twisty run,
20' of 1/2" type K copper pipe can supply 52K btu/hr, which may or may
not enough to run the grill.  (It should have a requirement in the
manual.)  If it's a twisty run, the typical derating is to increase
the length of the run by 50%, which drops the capacity to about 42K
btu/hr, which is probably too low.  That's with a drop   of 0.5 inches
of water, which is the standard design drop (it's code some places,
just recommended practice others).  If it's longer than the 18' to the
regulator, 1/2" is clearly not big enough.  Then he'd need to increase
the pipe size, or got to psi system, with at appliance regulators, at
least branch regulators; he'd need a gas plumber to tell what's
reasonable for his situation.  Or give up on gas and buy propane.
Running a gas line buys a bunch of propane tanks.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Apr  2 16:27:56 2011
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 18:27:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <188301cbf182$ff8ec420$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com><989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>,
	, <AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>,
	, <D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>,
	<COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>,
	<188301cbf182$ff8ec420$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <COL115-W6476355CDF79E4C881C487CCA10@phx.gbl>

Thanks again guys.  We are going to have to replace the pipe soon anyway, as
we are putting a small addition on to the back of our house.  It will be a
while before we are ready for the new pipe, but I will do my best to remember
to report back as to how well the grill works without that last two feet.
Jim

> From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:12:04 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
>
> > Does the
> > last two feet
> > limit all that came before it?
>
> Don't forget, the area of the pipe is proportional to the square of the
> diameter.  So your 1/4 pipe has only 1/4 the cross-sectional area of the
> 1/2" pipe.  Think of putting your thumb over the end of a hose.
>
> Just for chuckles, I found an on-line calculator and put some numbers into
> it.  At 1 cfm (about 60,000 Btu/h), the drop through 2 ft of 1/4" pipe is
> more than the pressure at the regulator.
>
> IMO even the 16 feet of 1/2" is reducing the output at least a little bit,
> depending somewhat on how big the burner is.
>
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sat Apr  2 18:16:41 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 20:16:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural Gas vs Propane Grills
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>
References: <AANLkTineLbYkVvPoQmyDTnmpHx_oF9mTJdbgftc630bH@mail.gmail.com><989191743.439910.1301748528539.JavaMail.root@sz0129a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><DD35EDD670C8487CA1FC718EB2F1BDDD@EntCent>,
	<AANLkTim2o_GuRtFHq57i6-6BHef845jz5bNofrTd52jR@mail.gmail.com>,
	<D8C88C2A6ED44521845CC68DC52501B2@EntCent>
	<COL115-W57336A556BB0DB04D089D2CCA10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4D97CA79.8050102@tx.rr.com>

Well a little bit no but mostly yes.  Everything from point A to point B 
can affect the flow.  In other words for every foot of the bigger tubing 
there is a certain amount of loss in pressure, for every foot of the 
smaller tubing there is a different amount of loss in pressure, probably 
a much bigger loss than the larger tubing, and then any fittings that 
are in the path will also have a certain amount of pressure loss that 
goes with them.  (If there are holes in the fittings that are smaller 
than the ID of the tubing, then it is obvious, but even if the holes 
aren't smaller there is still pressure loss due to irregular shapes, 
steps, etc. inside of the fittings.)

Consider all of these losses, and how much pressure is at the supply 
end, and that will determine how much flow makes it all the way 
through.  (Works the same way with electricity.)



> Thanks guys. That makes a lot of sense. Just to be sure we are all on the
> same page, I want to be sure you noticed that only the last 2 feet of the line
> is 1/4 inch.  The other 16 or so feet is 1/2 inch.  Does the last two feet
> limit all that came before it?  If so, that would certainly be an easy fix.

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Apr  5 12:48:40 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 18:48:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop)
In-Reply-To: <1458351136.3674897.1302029273853.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <524379407.3674945.1302029320801.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Thanks everybody for your input!

We wound up getting a Bissel bagless "cyclonic" type.  Interesting how the spoilers at the bottom of the chamber work.  It has a foam pre-motor filter and a paper(?) post-motor HEPA filter.  It does not have the removable canister vacuum, but the hose is part of the regular path.  The power switch is convenient (unlike the Hoover) and has a secondary switch so you can vac without powering the brush.  The accessories include a turbine-powered brush head for the hose.  The one thing I think is designed wrong is that the crevice tool is too short and too thick.  I guess you have to have wide shallow crevices...

It seems to work OK and be pretty-well built.  Sucked up a lot of fluff the Hoover has apparently been missing.  It was abut 1/4 of the Dyson price, so we can afford to experiment.

My wife went out and bought a belt for the Hoover anyway, and I put it back together last night.  She wants to give it to Daughter #1.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
http://www.mnautox.com


----- Original Message -----

> From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com
> To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 3:19:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop)
> 
> We needed a new vacuum last year.  (My wife was getting sick every
> time we
> vacuumed, so I decided to try a vacuum with HEPA filter.)  I
> researched
> everything with a filter on BestBuy's website, and bought a bagless
> Bissel
> lift off.  It is not light or cheap but it works well and has some
> interesting
> features.  It has all of the hoses and so forth on the machine so you
> just
> pull out the main suction hose, stick an attachment on it, and go. 
> When
> finished you stick the main hose back into its normal spot and it goes
> back to
> being a standard upright vacuum.  The main suction canister can lift
> off of
> the upright base and you can carry it like a canister vacuum with a
> hose.  I
> can vacuum half of my house and the tank will fill up with pet fur. 
> It is
> easy to dump, and I keep going.  My wife has not gotten sick when I
> use it.  I
> read all of the user reviews for the models I was interested in and
> picked the
> one that I thought was best.  Interestingly I read a lot of complaints
> about
> the expensive Dyson machines.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Tue Apr  5 13:38:28 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 15:38:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] vacuum cleaners (non-shop)
In-Reply-To: <524379407.3674945.1302029320801.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20110405193828.8CPVP.140567.root@cdptpa-web25-z02>

I used mine just this morning.  Halfway through my house and it fills up the dust container.  You do have to take the filters out and clean them occasionally too, probably more frequently than the months and months I go with mine between cleanings.



> Thanks everybody for your input!
> 
> We wound up getting a Bissel bagless "cyclonic" type.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Apr  6 13:13:07 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 14:13:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] building stuff with steel ?????
Message-ID: <C888B5088D814C0FB765A04D38681C9A@OwnerPC>

normally speaking without specific criteria... when you buy steel tubing for
projects like cherry pickers, engine stands, shop equipment... is it hot
rolled or cold rolled..... and why ??  price ?? availability ?? other ??

thanks
John

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  6 13:54:35 2011
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 12:54:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] tuning/refurb'ing gas power washer?
Message-ID: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I recently "inherited" a gas power washer last night. My FIL bought it many
years ago and kept it in his shed.  He tried to start it this past weekend
with 
no luck, gave up, and bought a new one.  So now I have this one...
It is
a "Generac" brand washer, with a Briggs&Stratton engine and some unknown 
pump
(it looked like there was a label on it, but I didn't take a closer look). 
My first thought is to pull the carb and degunk it (I'm sure it's nasty in
there).  I'm sure I'll want a new plug/filter/oil, etc.; is there somewhere
that 
lists various tune-up information for the B&S engines?  I thought I'd be
able to 
find it with a quick search, but the engine model information listed
on the 
sticker doesn't turn up any hits.
Also, is there any maintenance
required for power washer pumps?  It looks like 
there is some sort of
lubricant that can be changed, but no indicator of oil 
type or volume.  It
looks like a lot of used power washers are listed on CL with 
some sort of
pump issue, so I figure I should give it a once-over just in case. 
I was told
by my FIL that the detergent siphon wasn't working, so I don't know 
if that
is indicative of anything.  Thanks for any hints/tips....
 
Thanks,
Mike

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 13:58:41 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 15:58:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] building stuff with steel ?????
In-Reply-To: <C888B5088D814C0FB765A04D38681C9A@OwnerPC>
References: <C888B5088D814C0FB765A04D38681C9A@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <C53AFF6C-5C98-4F35-83CE-D210538B7F2B@gmail.com>

On Apr 6, 2011, at 3:13 PM, "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:

> normally speaking without specific criteria... when you buy steel  
> tubing for
> projects like cherry pickers, engine stands, shop equipment... is it  
> hot
> rolled or cold rolled..... and why ??  price ?? availability ??  
> other ??
>
>

Hot-rolled is much cheaper. It's also not as dimensionally accurate,  
because it's formed hot, and can shrink too much or not enough and can  
warp.  Commonly availAble grades also have wider compositon tollerance.

I prefer cold rolled but don't usually get a choice because the yard I  
buy from does not have many things in both forms. So unless I want to  
buy q trucklo 

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Apr  6 14:00:03 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 16:00:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] building stuff with steel ?????
In-Reply-To: <C888B5088D814C0FB765A04D38681C9A@OwnerPC>
References: <C888B5088D814C0FB765A04D38681C9A@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1104061559150.61049@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, john niolon wrote:
> normally speaking without specific criteria... when you buy steel tubing for
> projects like cherry pickers, engine stands, shop equipment... is it hot
> rolled or cold rolled..... and why ??  price ?? availability ?? other ??

    Since I just asked myself the same question about two days ago...

http://www.spaco.org/hrvscr.htm

    Hot-rolled is fine for most of those projects.

--
  David Hillman

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 21:11:14 2011
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 23:11:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] tuning/refurb'ing gas power washer?
In-Reply-To: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D9D2B52.3020209@gmail.com>

The pumps overheat easily if you don't keep water flowing.  NEVER run it 
without water and don't leave it running without flowing water for more 
than a one or two minutes.  They're full of plastic valves which melt.  
I know because I melted mine.  I had to rebuild the pump, got a kit for 
about $40 from pwmall.com.  The lube is "special" and the mfr said only 
to use what they recommend.  Mfr was an Italian company.  No recommended 
change interval - if you need new lube you likely need a new pump.  If 
you've worn out - versus melted - the pump, you likely need a new 
engine.  Outside the plunger assembly, the plumbing on mine was pretty 
simple and easily disassembled and reassembled with normal hand tools.  
There's a check valve in the detergent siphon circuit that shuts it off 
when you're in high pressure mode.  If siphon doesn't work then likely 
that check valve is stuck.  The pumps build up hard water deposits very 
quickly.  I also learned to store mine "properly" for the winter by 
squirting it with the pump lube.

The "consumer" washers seem to have a limited life of around 300 hrs 
from what I read.  The "commercial" units have much longer life and are 
more tolerant of abuse, but cost 4 times as much.  You get what you pay 
for.  The engines are typically not the same as lawn mower engines even 
on the consumer units.  Because they're at full power most of the time 
they're built to be more durable.  Don't know why that would make it any 
harder to find a manual or parts though.  Most of the places I found 
with parts had engine and pump parts. I'm guessing the carb and ignition 
is no different from most B&S engines.

Ben....

Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at gmail.com
Columbus, IN
1966 Triumph TR4A
1973 MG Midget
1980 Triumph TR8
2007 Mazda RX8
2002 Yamaha FZ1
2003 Honda ST1300


On 4/6/2011 3:54 PM, Obaa wrote:
> I recently "inherited" a gas power washer last night. My FIL bought it many
> years ago and kept it in his shed.  He tried to start it this past weekend
> with
> no luck, gave up, and bought a new one.  So now I have this one...
> It is
> a "Generac" brand washer, with a Briggs&Stratton engine and some unknown
> pump
> (it looked like there was a label on it, but I didn't take a closer look).
> My first thought is to pull the carb and degunk it (I'm sure it's nasty in
> there).  I'm sure I'll want a new plug/filter/oil, etc.; is there somewhere
> that
> lists various tune-up information for the B&S engines?  I thought I'd be
> able to
> find it with a quick search, but the engine model information listed
> on the
> sticker doesn't turn up any hits.
> Also, is there any maintenance
> required for power washer pumps?  It looks like
> there is some sort of
> lubricant that can be changed, but no indicator of oil
> type or volume.  It
> looks like a lot of used power washers are listed on CL with
> some sort of
> pump issue, so I figure I should give it a once-over just in case.
> I was told
> by my FIL that the detergent siphon wasn't working, so I don't know
> if that
> is indicative of anything.  Thanks for any hints/tips....
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 10:41:50 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:41:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>

So we had some impressive storms here a few night ago and the power went 
out.  That's normal, it does that every time there's a storm.  Also, 
each time this happens, there's a power surge right before the power 
goes out (the issue seems to be a transformer (?) at the end of the 
street--the gray cylinders on the poles).  Usually this fries a VCR, etc.

This time a breaker int the main box has flipped and won't stay 'unflipped'.

Now...before I just Google "how to replace a breaker" and do that, I 
thought prudence dictated I ask someone smarter than me (that's you 
guys  :-) ).

This is a 15-amp breaker, I think (it's the smallest kind in the box), 
and the only thing it's powering are three overhead light fixtures and a 
wall-socket.  There's nothing plugged into the socket, and all the 
fixtures are off.  One of the fixtures is a remote-controlled fan/light 
combo, but I've got the wall switch that controls that fixture in the 
off position.

So...my (completely uninformed and only one 'Theory of Electrical 
Engineering' class, many years ago) deduction is that the breaker itself 
must be bad, since there's nothing on the other side of it drawing 
current that could have shorted and now be open, which will cause a fire 
when I swap the breaker...unless maybe a wire in the wall broke, or 
something.

So...do you guys have any thoughts before I have at this?  Am I missing 
things here?  I'm about to kill myself and burn down my house?  I should 
be testing with a multimeter or something?

Thanks.

Scott

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 11:10:45 2011
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:10:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik1b8PbHWTysu2UHc_cO7D-+Q2gfA@mail.gmail.com>

The next step in troubleshooting would be to isolate the breaker form
the circuit.  If you can, turn off the power to the breaker at a main
line disconnect or panel breaker. With no power in the panel, try to
close the breaker.  If it will not close, the breaker is bad, go ahead
and replace it.

If you can't easily power down the entire panel, the following can be
done with the box live, but you must used extreme caution.  Do not do
this without someone else right there and a rescue plan.  You need to
remove the cover from the panel and disconnect the circuit from the
breaker by removing the wire that connects the circuit to the breaker.
With this wire removed try to close the breaker.  If it will not
close, the breaker is bad, go ahead and replace it.

If the breaker stays closed with no power on or with the circuit
disconnected, you have some other fault in the house wiring or one of
the light fixtures.


On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Scott Hall
<scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> So we had some impressive storms here a few night ago and the power went
> out.  That's normal, it does that every time there's a storm.  Also, each
> time this happens, there's a power surge right before the power goes out
> (the issue seems to be a transformer (?) at the end of the street--the gray
> cylinders on the poles).  Usually this fries a VCR, etc.
>
> This time a breaker int the main box has flipped and won't stay
'unflipped'.
>
> Now...before I just Google "how to replace a breaker" and do that, I
thought
> prudence dictated I ask someone smarter than me (that's you guys  :-) ).
>
> This is a 15-amp breaker, I think (it's the smallest kind in the box), and
> the only thing it's powering are three overhead light fixtures and a
> wall-socket.  There's nothing plugged into the socket, and all the fixtures
> are off.  One of the fixtures is a remote-controlled fan/light combo, but
> I've got the wall switch that controls that fixture in the off position.
>
> So...my (completely uninformed and only one 'Theory of Electrical
> Engineering' class, many years ago) deduction is that the breaker itself
> must be bad, since there's nothing on the other side of it drawing current
> that could have shorted and now be open, which will cause a fire when I
swap
> the breaker...unless maybe a wire in the wall broke, or something.
>
> So...do you guys have any thoughts before I have at this?  Am I missing
> things here?  I'm about to kill myself and burn down my house?  I should be
> testing with a multimeter or something?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Apr  7 11:18:20 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 13:18:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39A9EE2C-6E1C-47A1-A8F8-B8A374430240@groupwbench.org>

On Apr 7, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Scott Hall wrote:
>
>
> So...do you guys have any thoughts before I have at this?  Am I missing
things here?  I'm about to kill myself and burn down my house?  I should be
testing with a multimeter or something?

Well, if you DON'T test with a multimeter, you deserve to have the snot scared
out of you by a shower of sparks.

Sometimes the safety device is actually doing its job. :-)

Check there's no voltage on the output side of the breaker, and there's no
connectivity between the hot & neutral/ground at all the fixtures.

From marka at maracing.com  Thu Apr  7 11:31:42 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 13:31:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104071330400.6144@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I think I'd try removing the hot wire on the breaker and seeing if it 
will reset that way.  You might have something where you've now got a 
short in the wiring.

And you're not out anything if that isn't the case, because you'd have to 
remove the wire to replace the breaker anyway.  :-)

Mark

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011, Scott Hall wrote:

> So we had some impressive storms here a few night ago and the power went out. 
> That's normal, it does that every time there's a storm.  Also, each time this 
> happens, there's a power surge right before the power goes out (the issue 
> seems to be a transformer (?) at the end of the street--the gray cylinders on 
> the poles).  Usually this fries a VCR, etc.
>
> This time a breaker int the main box has flipped and won't stay 'unflipped'.
>
> Now...before I just Google "how to replace a breaker" and do that, I thought 
> prudence dictated I ask someone smarter than me (that's you guys  :-) ).
>
> This is a 15-amp breaker, I think (it's the smallest kind in the box), and 
> the only thing it's powering are three overhead light fixtures and a 
> wall-socket.  There's nothing plugged into the socket, and all the fixtures 
> are off.  One of the fixtures is a remote-controlled fan/light combo, but 
> I've got the wall switch that controls that fixture in the off position.
>
> So...my (completely uninformed and only one 'Theory of Electrical 
> Engineering' class, many years ago) deduction is that the breaker itself must 
> be bad, since there's nothing on the other side of it drawing current that 
> could have shorted and now be open, which will cause a fire when I swap the 
> breaker...unless maybe a wire in the wall broke, or something.
>
> So...do you guys have any thoughts before I have at this?  Am I missing 
> things here?  I'm about to kill myself and burn down my house?  I should be 
> testing with a multimeter or something?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Apr  7 11:49:50 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 13:49:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>

On 4/7/2011 12:41 PM, Scott Hall wrote:
> Now...before I just Google "how to replace a breaker" and do that, I
> thought prudence dictated I ask someone smarter than me (that's you guys
> :-) ).

Well, the "correct" answer is "hire an electrician" or "shut off the box 
main to the whole house and replace it."  Swapping or adding a breaker 
on a live panel is standard practice though -- at least for licensed 
pros.  What they do is flip off the breaker;  each one hinges in at the 
center of the panel (at least on every modern panel I've seen worked 
on); pull at the outboard edge to swing it out; unscrew hot lead; 
reconnect to new breaker with it TURNED OFF; insert into center hinge; 
snap down into outer power rail; switch on.

Disclaimer:  Any amateur foolish enough to attempt this possibly lethal 
task should probably at least try it on a dead panel first.  Note -- 
even if you switch off the main, the leads in from the meter and the big 
terminals are still hot.  And the ground and neutral bus are only 
non-hot in theory.

Even though almost all brands of breakers and panels are mechanically 
interchangeable, you have to match brands and products to be NEC compliant.

-w

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Apr  7 12:29:44 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 11:29:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com> <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <032d01cbf551$c4be40f0$4e3ac2d0$@rr.com>

> Even though almost all brands of breakers and panels are mechanically
> interchangeable, you have to match brands and products to be NEC
> compliant.

Around here, there are at least 3 major lines that are not compatible.  Two
of them can be found in stores (one is Murray, I forget the other offhand,
maybe Square-D or GE).  My 1968 addition was wired with a third type,
Federal Pacific.

Turns out that Federal Pacific cheated on their type acceptance tests, and
many of their breakers are faulty.  Fortunately I asked a contractor friend
of mine where to buy them, and he clued me in.  I replaced the entire
subpanel.

http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/reliance.htm

-- Randall 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Apr  7 12:37:53 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 14:37:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com> <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110407143254.04d22670@cox.net>

At 01:49 PM 4/7/2011, Wayne wrote:

No one has mentioned throwing the mains.  You can thow the main, and 
try to reset the suspect breaker.

Having said that, let me remind you that with the main tripped there 
still IS  220V
in the box.

For testing the wiring/replacing the suspect breaker tripping the 
main should be sufficient.  However, again, remember there still is 
power in the breaker panel.

If you really want to make sure every thing is dead, you will have to 
pull the meter.  The isn't really supposed to be done by the home 
owner, and there is
a metal safety tag that is cliped to the meter/box and has a plastic tab so it
can't be opened.  I've done this in the past, simply cut the clip 
near the plastic tab.  Remove the meter, when you're done, put the 
meter back and tuck the wire
back in place.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Apr  7 13:22:52 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 15:22:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com> <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1104071518290.3304@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011, Wayne wrote:
> Well, the "correct" answer is "hire an electrician" or "shut off the box main 
> to the whole house and replace it."  Swapping or adding a breaker on a live 
> panel is standard practice though -- at least for licensed pros.  What they 
> do is flip off the breaker;  each one hinges in at the center of the panel 
> (at least on every modern panel I've seen worked on); pull at the outboard 
> edge to swing it out; unscrew hot lead; reconnect to new breaker with it 
> TURNED OFF; insert into center hinge; snap down into outer power rail; switch 
> on.

    My semi-modern panel ( believed to be original to the 40-year-old house 
) contains breakers that hinge on the outside.  More to the point, when 
I've bought breakers for it, I just grabbed whatever off the shelf at 
the hardware store.  Given that, I think this type of panel must be 
relatively common, at least in this area.

--
  David Hillman

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Apr  7 22:59:04 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 21:59:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <032d01cbf551$c4be40f0$4e3ac2d0$@rr.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com>
	<4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com> <032d01cbf551$c4be40f0$4e3ac2d0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <46E75EC0009F4256B32FC460C18C4D90@EntCent>

Federal Pacific - I didn't realize how bad they were until I was working in
the attic, far from the panel and I attempted to power down the circuit by
shorting out an outlet with a screwdriver.  I could not do it.  The 15A
breaker just would not pop, not matter how long I shorted the terminals.
Very scary stuff.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:30 AM
To: 'Shop Talk List'
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?

> Even though almost all brands of breakers and panels are mechanically
> interchangeable, you have to match brands and products to be NEC
> compliant.

Around here, there are at least 3 major lines that are not compatible.  Two
of them can be found in stores (one is Murray, I forget the other offhand,
maybe Square-D or GE).  My 1968 addition was wired with a third type,
Federal Pacific.

Turns out that Federal Pacific cheated on their type acceptance tests, and
many of their breakers are faulty.  Fortunately I asked a contractor friend
of mine where to buy them, and he clued me in.  I replaced the entire
subpanel.

http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/reliance.htm

-- Randall 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Apr  8 06:39:08 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 08:39:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <46E75EC0009F4256B32FC460C18C4D90@EntCent>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com> <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
	<032d01cbf551$c4be40f0$4e3ac2d0$@rr.com>
	<46E75EC0009F4256B32FC460C18C4D90@EntCent>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimTjqVAtf3CAFgV97scbaYwApBjBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
  The 15A
> breaker just would not pop, not matter how long I shorted the terminals.
> Very scary stuff.


How long did you try?

Doug

From bbubeck01 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  8 10:57:32 2011
From: bbubeck01 at gmail.com (Bruce Bubeck)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 12:57:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a breaker?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimTjqVAtf3CAFgV97scbaYwApBjBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <151942.796.qm@web161406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4D9DE94E.9000408@gmail.com> <4D9DF93E.3090103@xxiii.com>
	<032d01cbf551$c4be40f0$4e3ac2d0$@rr.com>
	<46E75EC0009F4256B32FC460C18C4D90@EntCent>
	<BANLkTimTjqVAtf3CAFgV97scbaYwApBjBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=0Qv8bUZvYK-BP473xGZ3ofA_O0g@mail.gmail.com>

Jack,
FPE breakers were notorious for their never trip feature.

On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Douglas Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
>  The 15A
> > breaker just would not pop, not matter how long I shorted the terminals.
> > Very scary stuff.
>
>
> How long did you try?
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bbubeck01 at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Apr  8 21:01:28 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 23:01:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop
Message-ID: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>

Ok, I'm sure you all have stereos in your shops.  I have a question about 
the electronics in dusty environments like garages.

My speakers get pretty dusty over the years.  They are high up and not 
easy to clean regularly.  Are there any problems putting a plastic bag 
over them?  What if I left the bottom's of the bags open?  What about 
pallet wrapping them? 

Next question, I'm adding a projector to garage and I'm trying to figure 
out the best way to cover that.  Now I know that it needs lots of air to 
stay cool when running, but is there an easy way to keep the dusty off of 
it when I'm not using it?  Again, it will be up high and not easy to pull 
a cover off manually.  I was thinking about maybe a box with some fans and 
air filters or something.

FWIW, before you judge me, I turn 40 this Oct and I believe I'm having my 
mid-life crisis.  Since I've already done all the stupid things that most 
men do when they hit 40 (i.e. motorcycles, fast cars, big trucks, date 
younger girls), I have to find other insane pursuits.  So adding a 12' 
motorized movie screen to the garage is just one of them!  8>)




Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Fri Apr  8 23:40:38 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 00:40:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop
In-Reply-To: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4D9FF156.9050700@tx.rr.com>

I think plastic wrap would seriously affect the output of your 
speakers.  If I was worried about dust I would wrap them in a thin cloth 
bag.  When the bag gets dusty, take it off and wash it.

I don't know about the projector though.  I would think some kind of 
dust cover over it would be essential.  Maybe rig the cover so it could 
be lifted off with a string and a pulley.


> Ok, I'm sure you all have stereos in your shops.  I have a question about
> the electronics in dusty environments like garages.
>
> My speakers get pretty dusty over the years.  They are high up and not
> easy to clean regularly.  Are there any problems putting a plastic bag
> over them?  What if I left the bottom's of the bags open?  What about
> pallet wrapping them?
>
> Next question, I'm adding a projector to garage and I'm trying to figure
> out the best way to cover that.  Now I know that it needs lots of air to
> stay cool when running, but is there an easy way to keep the dusty off of
> it when I'm not using it?  Again, it will be up high and not easy to pull
> a cover off manually.  I was thinking about maybe a box with some fans and
> air filters or something.
>
> FWIW, before you judge me, I turn 40 this Oct and I believe I'm having my
> mid-life crisis.  Since I've already done all the stupid things that most
> men do when they hit 40 (i.e. motorcycles, fast cars, big trucks, date
> younger girls), I have to find other insane pursuits.  So adding a 12'
> motorized movie screen to the garage is just one of them!  8>)

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Apr  9 01:55:01 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 00:55:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop
In-Reply-To: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <011701cbf68b$6ed1a070$0301a8c0@randall>

> Are there any problems putting a 
> plastic bag over them? 

I wouldn't think so.  The plastic should have no problem moving with the
sound.  It might "color" the sound very slightly, but likely your shop is
somewhat less than acoustically perfect anyway; I doubt you'll notice the
difference.

But there is an easier way, just turn the music up.  It'll shake off the
dust!  My garage stereo is just a little 20 watt receiver left over from my
college days, but those speakers have been up there for 20 years and there's
no dust on them.  (However, I do need to take them down and replace the
surrounds. Anyone else tried that?)

> I was thinking about maybe a box with 
> some fans and 
> air filters or something.

Sure, why not?  Just don't underestimate how much heat those things
generate.  3 or 4 old computer fans should do nicely (or the 110vac
equivalents if you don't want to bother with a 12vdc power supply).

> FWIW, before you judge me,

Hell, Moose, I'm envious.
-- Randall  

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Apr  9 07:55:47 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 06:55:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
Message-ID: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>

Listers,

My Dad has a 1918 Seagrave pumper fire engine he's restored.  The machine has brass all over the place--including a 
huge, honeycomb-style radiator and, of course, a brass bell--and he has a devil of a time keeping the brass polished.  
He's tried all kinds of polish, but the one that works best is called Tarnite.  Unfortunately, it appears Tarnite has 
been out of production for several years and is pretty much unobtanium (there's a guy trying to sell a quarter-full can 
on eBay, but that's not worth the trouble).

If anyone knows of a source, or has a stash they'd be willing to part with for a fair price please let me know.  There's 
some photos of the engine--and a few of our other projects--here:  http://home.comcast.net/~bspidell

Thanks,
Bob

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Sat Apr  9 08:10:47 2011
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:10:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>

Maybe here?

http://test.deerso.com/9OZ_METAL_POLISH636896-details.aspx




Listers,

My Dad has a 1918 Seagrave pumper fire engine he's restored.  The machine 
has brass all over the place--including a
huge, honeycomb-style radiator and, of course, a brass bell--and he has a 
devil of a time keeping the brass polished.
He's tried all kinds of polish, but the one that works best is called 
Tarnite.  Unfortunately, it appears Tarnite has
been out of production for several years and is pretty much unobtanium 
(there's a guy trying to sell a quarter-full can
on eBay, but that's not worth the trouble).

If anyone knows of a source, or has a stash they'd be willing to part with 
for a fair price please let me know.  There's
some photos of the engine--and a few of our other projects--here: 
http://home.comcast.net/~bspidell

Thanks,
Bob

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Apr  9 08:56:42 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 07:56:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
	<F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>

Thanks, but we tried them.  Ordered 12 cans, but they canceled the order because they don't actually have any (I was 
suspicious about the 'test' in the URI, but we tried anyway).

Pretty annoying that the website is inaccurate (and our credit card company might be having a word or two with them).

Bob



On 4/9/2011 7:10 AM, Mark wrote:
> Maybe here?
>
> http://test.deerso.com/9OZ_METAL_POLISH636896-details.aspx
>
>
>
>
> Listers,
>
> My Dad has a 1918 Seagrave pumper fire engine he's restored.  The machine
> has brass all over the place--including a
> huge, honeycomb-style radiator and, of course, a brass bell--and he has a
> devil of a time keeping the brass polished.
> He's tried all kinds of polish, but the one that works best is called
> Tarnite.  Unfortunately, it appears Tarnite has
> been out of production for several years and is pretty much unobtanium
> (there's a guy trying to sell a quarter-full can
> on eBay, but that's not worth the trouble).
>
> If anyone knows of a source, or has a stash they'd be willing to part with
> for a fair price please let me know.  There's
> some photos of the engine--and a few of our other projects--here:
> http://home.comcast.net/~bspidell
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sat Apr  9 08:57:45 2011
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 07:57:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop
In-Reply-To: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DA073E9.5080206@earthlink.net>

Moose - I would not expect most people to be able to notice a difference 
with speakers in a thin plastic bag.  I actually experienced it 
yesterday at a show with my family.  It started to sprinkle, so they 
pulled some trash bags over the speakers and I couldn't tell the 
difference.   It was a kids oriented puppet and magic shows in an 
outdoor noisy area, but I still don't think a plastic bag would change 
much.  You could always just do a quick test with some bags over your 
inside speakers.

[For people in the Los Angeles area with kids under about 10, see 
www.adventurecity.com - a great deal without the crowds or expense of 
the bigger parks.  On days like yesterday, you could often stay on the 
ride over and over and over and over.]

For the projector, you could make a box frame and use furnace air 
filters for most of the sides and bottom.  Use a glass panel for the 
front.  That way you will have a dust resistant enclosure that still 
circulates air.  If it doesn't have enough passive cooling, you could 
add some fans to pull the air out.

On a note related to electronics in the garage, yesterday I read an 
article in the March 2011 Popular Mechanics where they built a computer 
in a rolling tool chest.  The computer was all sealed and the 
components, including the power supply were all water cooled.  The only 
thing exposed was a radiator.  They didn't give a total cost, but adding 
up the components listed shows it to be over $2700 for just the computer 
'box'.

Brian

On 4/8/2011 8:01 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Ok, I'm sure you all have stereos in your shops.  I have a question about
> the electronics in dusty environments like garages.
>
> My speakers get pretty dusty over the years.  They are high up and not
> easy to clean regularly.  Are there any problems putting a plastic bag
> over them?  What if I left the bottom's of the bags open?  What about
> pallet wrapping them?
>
> Next question, I'm adding a projector to garage and I'm trying to figure
> out the best way to cover that.  Now I know that it needs lots of air to
> stay cool when running, but is there an easy way to keep the dusty off of
> it when I'm not using it?  Again, it will be up high and not easy to pull
> a cover off manually.  I was thinking about maybe a box with some fans and
> air filters or something.
>
> FWIW, before you judge me, I turn 40 this Oct and I believe I'm having my
> mid-life crisis.  Since I've already done all the stupid things that most
> men do when they hit 40 (i.e. motorcycles, fast cars, big trucks, date
> younger girls), I have to find other insane pursuits.  So adding a 12'
> motorized movie screen to the garage is just one of them!  8>)
>
>
>
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sat Apr  9 10:19:19 2011
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:19:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop
In-Reply-To: <011701cbf68b$6ed1a070$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
	<011701cbf68b$6ed1a070$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <1EFA8D55AEE24507A69A80563B4319EB@Dell2010Watson>

Hi, Randall,

    In your message you posed a question:

-----Original Message----- 
>no dust on them.  (However, I do need to take them down and replace the
>surrounds. Anyone else tried that?)

    If you mean replacing the foam that holds the speaker cone to the frame 
I've done it.  I replaced the foam on my AR 98LS speakers (bought them in 
1983!).  I got the replacement foam from a company I found on the net. 
There are several.  One is http://www.newfoam.com/ - I'm pretty sure that 
this is the company I dealt with.  Good instructions, reasonable prices, 
speakers still working fine after a couple of years.

    Of course if you mean something else just ignore my ramblings.

    Oh, I almost forgot - I need to refoam a pair of speakers that I plan on 
using in the garage (obligatory shop-talk that also happens to be true;-)

    'later,

Mark Watson
1965 Ford Falcon -  goal = back on the road this summer,
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II - goal = back on road before I die,
various transportation pods.

From tputland at charter.net  Sat Apr  9 12:27:42 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 14:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
Message-ID: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>

Last year I bought an light weight aluminum "racing" floor jack from 
horrible freight. It has worked good but now is leaking hydraulic fluid. 
>From what I have read online, parts to rebuild them are basically non 
existant. Can these jacks be refilled or is it meant to be a sealed 
system and not user servicable? I don't really see anything jumping out 
at me that looks like a fill hole.

Since I probably won't be able to find the receipt, will they take it 
back or exchange it at HF? I have not had to return anything there 
before so don't know what they would say......

thanks

Tim

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sat Apr  9 16:34:38 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 17:34:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lift installation
In-Reply-To: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
References: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4DA0DEFE.7090203@tx.rr.com>

There was discussion recently on one of the lists I read about 
installation of lifts, maybe it was this list.

In my dad's shop he has 2 small lifts and one larger lift, all of them 
are cantilevered 2-post lifts.  (He said the larger lift is rated for 
16,000 pounds).  He has been in business for over 50 years, and bought 
an existing building to get started, which he says was originally part 
of a cotton gin.  He has rebuilt the building itself twice since then, 
once because of a fire, but using the original floor slab.  He noticed 
that his bigger lift was pulling the bolts out of the floor so he 
decided to remove a section of his slab and repour it.

I happened to be there last weekend when they sawcut out the section of 
floor slab.  The old slab was about 5" thick, with no reinforcing of any 
kind in it.  24 hours later he had his new slab in place.  I didn't find 
out what reinforcing he put in it but they did reinforce it.  They 
poured a thicker slab and thickened the sections under the lift poles 
even more.  They used wedge bolts to install the lift originally, and 
when they broke out the concrete it liberated some of the bolts.  I 
measured them and they didn't extend far enough into the slab for proper 
anchorage.

In my business I get to see the latest bolts from Hilti, Simpson, 
Philips and Powers, so I recommended that he use a threaded bolt such as 
the Simpson Titen.  These look like a tapcon concrete anchor, but much 
larger.  I called him today and he said he got framework of the  lift 
reinstalled today.  They still have to run the cables and connect the 
hydraulics, and install the cantilevered arms.  I told him to test it by 
putting a truck in there and picking up the front end of it by using 
just the front arms and not having any of the load on the back arms.  
This would put the most pullout on the anchor bolts as a test.

Whether you use the old type wedge bolts or the newer anchors such as 
the threaded Simpson Titen, they have to extend far enough into the 
concrete to be effective.  A large anchor just 2" or 3" into the 
concrete will not get its full capacity and will fail by pulling a chunk 
of concrete out right at the anchor.  With that same style anchor 
extended 5" or more into the concrete and it will get a lot more pullout 
capacity.  I was looking at manufacturer's specs for some anchors and a 
properly installed 3/4" diameter wedge bolt should have a pullout 
capacity at failure of over 15,000 pounds.  If you use the threaded 
anchors then you may have to use one size smaller so that the threads 
will fit through the holes in your base plates.  The manufacturer's 
specified capacity for the 5/8" diameter Titen at failure is a little 
bit above the capacity of the larger 3/4" diameter wedge bolt.  (If 
anybody out there is trying to engineer their own connection, these 
anchors are typically used with a factor of safety of 4, so the 
allowable tension on the anchor is closer to 4,000 pounds each.)

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Apr  9 17:23:02 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 16:23:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
In-Reply-To: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
References: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
Message-ID: <00bf01cbf70d$12f47fc0$0301a8c0@randall>

I don't know which model jack you have, but picking one at random from the
HF web site, I see that the warranty is only 90 days (so you're out of luck
there), and there are instructions for filling it.
http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/68000-68999/68054.pdf

Before you give up repairing it, I would try calling their customer service
department (believe it or not, there really is such a thing!) and see if
they can order a repair kit for you.  I've gotten parts for other tools from
them in the past, and while it took a long time (over a month as I recall),
I did eventually get the parts and the price was not unreasonable.  (Not
cheap either, but better than throwing the tool away.)
http://www.harborfreight.com/contact-customer-service/

-- Randall  

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Apr  9 17:45:06 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 19:45:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
In-Reply-To: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
References: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
Message-ID: <0LJE0014MSPK5FG0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Check out this thread on The Garage Journal.  The guy who wrote this 
tutorial can also provide some parts.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51105

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 02:27 PM 4/9/2011, Tim wrote:
>Last year I bought an light weight aluminum "racing" floor jack from
>horrible freight. It has worked good but now is leaking hydraulic fluid.
> >From what I have read online, parts to rebuild them are basically non
>existant. Can these jacks be refilled or is it meant to be a sealed
>system and not user servicable? I don't really see anything jumping out
>at me that looks like a fill hole.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Apr  9 18:07:13 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 20:07:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
In-Reply-To: <00bf01cbf70d$12f47fc0$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
	<00bf01cbf70d$12f47fc0$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi==DxLpGvKwAXz+WQxeSsjB10fxBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 7:23 PM, Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I don't know which model jack you have, but picking one at random from the
> HF web site, I see that the warranty is only 90 days (so you're out of luck
> there), and there are instructions for filling it.
> http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/68000-68999/68054.pdf
>
> Before you give up repairing it, I would try calling their customer service
> department (believe it or not, there really is such a thing!) and see if
> they can order a repair kit for you. B I've gotten parts for other tools
from
> them in the past, and while it took a long time (over a month as I recall),
> I did eventually get the parts and the price was not unreasonable. B (Not
> cheap either, but better than throwing the tool away.)
> http://www.harborfreight.com/contact-customer-service/
>

It's worth a try, but lack of parts support is one of things that
really, really sucks about cheap imported hydraulic jacks.  In theory,
all of the parts that are likely to wear out are reasonably standard
things that should be available from multiple sources.  Hard to figure
that out except by taking the stupid thing apart, measuring, and
buying those, and its not worth it on junk.   The reason it's eaten
the seal (whether it's an oring or a cup seal) is because the
machining sucks.   My experience with cheap chinese jacks is that it's
the main seal on the piston that fails.  It's bigger than what's in
the oring assortments I and the hardware stores have, so it's got to
come from the bearing place or someone like McMaster, and that's just
too much work.  I might bother for alluminum jack, which are a bit
more expensive,  but if it's failed in a year or two, it'll fail again
in a year; the bore or piston isn't getting any better machined.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sat Apr  9 18:31:18 2011
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 20:31:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop
In-Reply-To: <006601cbf6df$a3aac9d0$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <OF143E067D.A7E4C5A7-ON8525786D.0011D65F-8525786D.001294A7@mail.megageek.com>
	<011701cbf68b$6ed1a070$0301a8c0@randall>
	<1EFA8D55AEE24507A69A80563B4319EB@Dell2010Watson>
	<006601cbf6df$a3aac9d0$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <4756F375854D49C2BB69D837FAC75D80@Dell2010Watson>

Randall,

    My kit came with an anonymous container of glue.  It sure looked and 
behaved like plain old white glue (I think it's called PVA).  I did find 
another company's website that sells the adhesive: 
http://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-adhesives.html

    Hope this helps.

Mark

-----Original Message----- 
From: Randall
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 1:57 PM
To: 'Mark Watson'
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop

Thanks, Mark.  That is exactly what I meant.

What did you use for glue?  I bought a set of foams several years ago, not
sure if I can find the instructions or not.

-- Randall

From herby at herbytoys.com  Sat Apr  9 19:04:07 2011
From: herby at herbytoys.com (Herby)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 18:04:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop
In-Reply-To: <4756F375854D49C2BB69D837FAC75D80@Dell2010Watson>
Message-ID: <2C101B29079B40B480CC62A43832AFBF@HERBYZ>

Randall,

Try parts-express.com <http://www.parts-express.com/>  and search for
surround kit. I haven't used these personally but have friends who have and
they were quite happy with it. One friend repaired his AR's he purchased new
many years ago. After repair said they sounded just like new.

 

I have dealt with Parts Express for many other items and have not had any
issues with the products or their services. 

 

herby at herbytoys.com

 

  _____  

From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Watson
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 5:31 PM
To: Randall; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop

 

Randall,

    My kit came with an anonymous container of glue.  It sure looked and
behaved like plain old white glue (I think it's called PVA).  I did find
another company's website that sells the adhesive:
http://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-adhesives.html

    Hope this helps.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Randall
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 1:57 PM
To: 'Mark Watson'
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] multimedia in the shop

Thanks, Mark.  That is exactly what I meant.

What did you use for glue?  I bought a set of foams several years ago, not
sure if I can find the instructions or not.

-- Randall
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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  _____  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3561 - Release Date: 04/09/11

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Apr  9 20:05:52 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 22:05:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi==DxLpGvKwAXz+WQxeSsjB10fxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
	<00bf01cbf70d$12f47fc0$0301a8c0@randall>
	<BANLkTi==DxLpGvKwAXz+WQxeSsjB10fxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA11080.5060804@xxiii.com>

On 4/9/2011 8:07 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
> ....... The reason it's eaten
> the seal (whether it's an oring or a cup seal) is because the
> machining sucks.   My experience with cheap chinese jacks is that it's
> the main seal on the piston that fails.  It's bigger than what's in

Would something like a brake cylinder hone clean it up well enough to 
work for a while?

I have a Sears 3 ton floor jack that is starting to fail after about 18 
years.  Wish I knew more about fixing the things.  The jack saddle on 
the thing is so dang high, it has trouble getting under most new cars 
anyway.  But I worry a new low-profile one will just expire quickly 
anyway.  Hmmm.

-Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Apr  9 20:49:36 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 22:49:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
Message-ID: <0468CABB-F714-45DE-8399-7DE6041BB1A5@gmail.com>

On Apr 9, 2011, at 10:05 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> On 4/9/2011 8:07 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
>> ....... The reason it's eaten
>> the seal (whether it's an oring or a cup seal) is because the
>> machining sucks.   My experience with cheap chinese jacks is that  
>> it's
>> the main seal on the piston that fails.  It's bigger than what's in
>
> Would something like a brake cylinder hone clean it up well enough  
> to work for a while?
>
> I have a Sears 3 ton floor jack that is starting to fail after about  
> 18 years.  Wish I knew more about fixing the things.  The jack  
> saddle on the thing is so dang high, it has trouble getting under  
> most new cars anyway.  But I worry a new low-profile one will just  
> expire quickly anyway.  Hmmm.
>

A jack thAt's  lasted 18 years is probaly just worn seals. These jacks  
have an oring or cup seal (sometimes a set), either on piston (most  
common, I think) or the bore.  The surface w/ the seal doesn't have to  
be perfect, because the seal is there. The surface without the seal  
needs to be smooth, because it's what the seal rides on.  Even with  
good machining seals simply wear out. If you can get a kit (and I bet  
you can), I'd just  look at the bore and replace the seal if the  
bore's good. (parts kits usually have the main piston seal, o rings  
for the pump and maybe a release valve needle.).  So

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Apr  9 20:50:39 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 22:50:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
In-Reply-To: <4DA11080.5060804@xxiii.com>
References: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
	<00bf01cbf70d$12f47fc0$0301a8c0@randall>
	<BANLkTi==DxLpGvKwAXz+WQxeSsjB10fxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA11080.5060804@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <0LJF006L318H0WJ0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

There are a lot of people who would tell you that your older jack is 
well worth rebuilding.  Take a look at the link I posted 
earlier:  http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51105. 
That isn't going to make it any lower, though.

-Steve

At 10:05 PM 4/9/2011, Wayne wrote:
>On 4/9/2011 8:07 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
>>....... The reason it's eaten
>>the seal (whether it's an oring or a cup seal) is because the
>>machining sucks.   My experience with cheap chinese jacks is that it's
>>the main seal on the piston that fails.  It's bigger than what's in
>
>Would something like a brake cylinder hone clean it up well enough 
>to work for a while?
>
>I have a Sears 3 ton floor jack that is starting to fail after about 
>18 years.  Wish I knew more about fixing the things.  The jack 
>saddle on the thing is so dang high, it has trouble getting under 
>most new cars anyway.  But I worry a new low-profile one will just 
>expire quickly anyway.  Hmmm.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Apr  9 21:07:15 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 23:07:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
In-Reply-To: <0LJF006L318H0WJ0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <7728b6c4.c1efe.12f3b84ffc2.Webtop.41@charter.net>
	<00bf01cbf70d$12f47fc0$0301a8c0@randall>
	<BANLkTi==DxLpGvKwAXz+WQxeSsjB10fxBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA11080.5060804@xxiii.com> <0LJF006L318H0WJ0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4DA11EE3.1030206@xxiii.com>

On 4/9/2011 10:50 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:
> There are a lot of people who would tell you that your older jack is
> well worth rebuilding. Take a look at the link I posted earlier:
> http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51105. That isn't going
> to make it any lower, though.

Wow!  Thanks Steve.  That link is a great how-to.  The pix look just 
like my old Sears, though I don't know if it's domestic or Asian.  It 
actually came with a replacement O-ring and some other seal that I still 
have around, but probably would not use given their age.

-W

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Apr 10 07:40:59 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 09:40:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum floor jack
Message-ID: <618276c1.c5590.12f3fa4dc4f.Webtop.45@charter.net>

it appears that mine is leaking along the seam between the main piece on 
the right side and what I assume is the reservoir; not at all near the 
piston......

Is this even a spot that would be able to be fixed by a repair kit--if I 
can even find one?


Tim


On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Tim wrote:

> Last year I bought an light weight aluminum "racing" floor jack from 
> horrible freight. It has worked good but now is leaking hydraulic 
> fluid.
>> From what I have read online, parts to rebuild them are basically non
> existant. Can these jacks be refilled or is it meant to be a sealed 
> system and not user servicable? I don't really see anything jumping 
> out at me that looks like a fill hole.
>
> Since I probably won't be able to find the receipt, will they take it 
> back or exchange it at HF? I have not had to return anything there 
> before so don't know what they would say......
>
> thanks
>
> Tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Apr 10 21:26:28 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 23:26:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nissan GTR
Message-ID: <4DA274E4.6080005@xxiii.com>

A friend and his friend, whom I shall not name on a publicly readable 
archived forum got to "play" with a slightly used Nissan GT-R for the 
weekend.  Check this nice video of two full on launches.  Car mags say 
sub 3 second 0-60 and low 11 second quarters, but these seem to fly by 
even faster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ1vYBiCrGk

-w

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Apr 11 05:04:06 2011
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:04:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nissan GTR
In-Reply-To: <4DA274E4.6080005@xxiii.com>
References: <4DA274E4.6080005@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <004901cbf838$2e7de250$8b79a6f0$@cablespeed.com>

Don't know if the "crick" in my neck is from whiplash or just having to turn
my head sidewise....

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Apr 11 07:55:52 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:55:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nissan GTR
In-Reply-To: <004901cbf838$2e7de250$8b79a6f0$@cablespeed.com>
References: <4DA274E4.6080005@xxiii.com>
	<004901cbf838$2e7de250$8b79a6f0$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <4DA30868.1090708@xxiii.com>

On 4/11/2011 7:04 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> Don't know if the "crick" in my neck is from whiplash or just having to turn
> my head sidewise....

Yeah, not sure what's up with the sideways.  Think he just had a phone 
cam' that he laid over on a solid surface for support.

Usually in reference to cars I have my <Beavis> voice on and I'm going 
Sideways!  Sideways!  encouraging some rear end drama.  Guessing the AWD 
and computers in the GT-R don't allow much of that fun.

-Wayne

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Apr 11 11:00:03 2011
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:00:03 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anniversary
Message-ID: <20110411170003.915262E06C@bradakis.com>

I imagine there are folks on the list who grew up listening to
The Beatles, and remember the Sgt. Pepper song which starts:

It was 20 years ago today
Sargent Pepper taught the band to play


Well, 20 years ago today the domain Team.Net was registered.
The autocross and british car lists were already up and running
for a while on my computer at the U of U, but getting our own
domain was a big step in a new direction.  Hard to beleive I've
been doing this for so many years.

Happy anniversary, folks!

mjb.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 11 11:48:36 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:48:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <20110411170003.915262E06C@bradakis.com>
References: <20110411170003.915262E06C@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimU9zghW5wKG+rtLtmDFsAm_V+yJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:

> Well, 20 years ago today the domain Team.Net was registered.
> The autocross and british car lists were already up and running
> for a while on my computer at the U of U, but getting our own
> domain was a big step in a new direction. B Hard to beleive I've
> been doing this for so many years.
>

Thank you!


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Apr 11 12:15:17 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:15:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <20110411170003.915262E06C@bradakis.com>
References: <20110411170003.915262E06C@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <4DA34535.3000009@xxiii.com>

On 4/11/2011 1:00 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
> Well, 20 years ago today the domain Team.Net was registered.
> The autocross and british car lists were already up and running
> for a while on my computer at the U of U, but getting our own
> domain was a big step in a new direction.  Hard to beleive I've

Thanks!

What the heck is with the registration?  "Big Blue Room Organization"??

Registrant:
  Big Blue Room Organization
  POB 491
  Berlin, Ma 01503
  Domain name: TEAM.NET

http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/team.net

-Wayne

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Apr 12 03:33:17 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 05:33:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <20110411170003.915262E06C@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <OF876BA635.E3FC90DE-ON85257870.003643CD-85257870.003673A4@mail.megageek.com>

Congrads!!!

Seems like a great time for us all to donate again to this wonderful 
cause.

Also, seems like it's been only a few years since the beginning, huh?

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
04/11/2011 12:49

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] Anniversary






I imagine there are folks on the list who grew up listening to
The Beatles, and remember the Sgt. Pepper song which starts:

It was 20 years ago today
Sargent Pepper taught the band to play


Well, 20 years ago today the domain Team.Net was registered.
The autocross and british car lists were already up and running
for a while on my computer at the U of U, but getting our own
domain was a big step in a new direction.  Hard to beleive I've
been doing this for so many years.

Happy anniversary, folks!

mjb.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Apr 12 07:02:28 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:02:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <OF876BA635.E3FC90DE-ON85257870.003643CD-85257870.003673A4@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <20110411170003.915262E06C@bradakis.com>
	<OF876BA635.E3FC90DE-ON85257870.003643CD-85257870.003673A4@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110412090129.04ea3d90@cox.net>

Mark,

Thanks for the hard work you put in maintaining the system.  I know it takes up
a good bit of your time.

You've done an outstanding job!!!!

Thanks!!!!!

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Apr 12 07:26:51 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 08:26:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anniversary
Message-ID: <096AE142190548998D461912D6C33A16@OwnerPC>

X2 on what John said....

of all the places on the internet for information... this is the first place I
come.   Thanks Mark for all blood/sweat/tears/$$$$$.   Even though I'm sure
the compensation is thanks enough,   yea right !

john

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 12 14:47:49 2011
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:47:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nissan GTR
In-Reply-To: <4DA30868.1090708@xxiii.com>
References: <4DA274E4.6080005@xxiii.com>
	<004901cbf838$2e7de250$8b79a6f0$@cablespeed.com>
	<4DA30868.1090708@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <310321.6964.qm@web161603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Darn electronic nannys.  Always seem to spoil the fun on the track.
<eg>

I
miss the days when my right foot was the traction control. Even with
traction
control supposedly off, there is still sometimes a noticeable
reduction in
power once the wheels start spinning. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo dot com
________________________________
From: Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
To: Shop Talk
List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 9:55:52 AM
Subject:
Re: [Shop-talk] Nissan GTR

On 4/11/2011 7:04 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> Don't
know if the "crick" in my neck is from whiplash or just having to turn
> my
head sidewise....

Yeah, not sure what's up with the sideways.  Think he just
had a phone cam' that 
he laid over on a solid surface for support.

Usually
in reference to cars I have my <Beavis> voice on and I'm going 
Sideways! 
Sideways!  encouraging some rear end drama.  Guessing the AWD and 
computers
in the GT-R don't allow much of that fun.

(snip)

From lee at automate-it.com  Wed Apr 13 08:05:10 2011
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:05:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
	<F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
	<4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

Regarding:

>> http://test.deerso.com/9OZ_METAL_POLISH636896-details.aspx

and

> Pretty annoying that the website is inaccurate (and our credit card company
> might be having a word or two with them).
> On 4/9/2011 7:10 AM, Mark wrote:

Note the review here:
  http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Deerso
Pretty much takes them off my radar forever.

 - Lee

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Apr 13 08:43:20 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:43:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
	<F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
	<4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>
	<c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com>

Avoid buying from an online vendor unless it has a well-known good
reputation, or a brick-and-mortar presence!

The vendors to avoid are ones who offer zillions of different types of
things, and are vague about their physical location.  At best, they
are just trolling for orders that eventually get relayed to somebody
else for fulfillment. A few months ago I ordered some welding supplies
from an online vendor that appeared to be nearby and listed exactly
what I wanted.  I placed the order, and ended up waiting three weeks,
instead of the day or two that I had anticipated.  They address they
listed (in an obscure part of the web site) turned out to be some
random house in NJ, and the stuff was eventually shipped from Florida.

Of course, the concept of drop-shipping predates the internet by many
years.  Go look at some of the small ads in the back of a 1970's
Popular Mechanics magazine. :-)

Lots of smaller traditional merchants (e.g. specialist hardware
stores) do online sales, but they brag about (and tell you the
location of) their brick-and-mortar establishment.

Doug



On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com> wrote:
> Regarding:
>
>>> http://test.deerso.com/9OZ_METAL_POLISH636896-details.aspx
>
> and
>
>> Pretty annoying that the website is inaccurate (and our credit card
company
>> might be having a word or two with them).
>> On 4/9/2011 7:10 AM, Mark wrote:
>
> Note the review here:
>  http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Deerso
> Pretty much takes them off my radar forever.
>
>  - Lee

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Apr 13 08:46:13 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:46:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
	<F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
	<4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>
	<c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <F2F7CE64-5FD5-40A7-A5F6-BF0B68F1D482@groupwbench.org>

A bit late to the party, but have you tried Simichrome?

jim

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Apr 13 09:51:51 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:51:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <209751586.3631641.1302709911088.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

FWIW, Deerso is an Amazon.com affiliate (or whatever they call companies that hitch a ride on the Amazon cloud). I wanted to bash them in a review on Amazon but, apparently, because I didn't place the order through Amazon I couldn't figure out if/how I could do it. 

I've been ordering online for many years, with knowns and unknowns, and only been burned a couple times (that's when you find out how good your credit card company is). 

Bob 

-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 


Avoid buying from an online vendor unless it has a well-known good 
reputation, or a brick-and-mortar presence! 

The vendors to avoid are ones who offer zillions of different types of 
things, and are vague about their physical location. At best, they 
are just trolling for orders that eventually get relayed to somebody 
else for fulfillment. A few months ago I ordered some welding supplies 
from an online vendor that appeared to be nearby and listed exactly 
what I wanted. I placed the order, and ended up waiting three weeks, 
instead of the day or two that I had anticipated. They address they 
listed (in an obscure part of the web site) turned out to be some 
random house in NJ, and the stuff was eventually shipped from Florida. 

Of course, the concept of drop-shipping predates the internet by many 
years. Go look at some of the small ads in the back of a 1970's 
Popular Mechanics magazine. :-) 

Lots of smaller traditional merchants (e.g. specialist hardware 
stores) do online sales, but they brag about (and tell you the 
location of) their brick-and-mortar establishment. 

Doug 



On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com> wrote: 
> Regarding: 
> 
>>> http://test.deerso.com/9OZ_METAL_POLISH636896-details.aspx 
> 
> and 
> 
>> Pretty annoying that the website is inaccurate (and our credit card 
company 
>> might be having a word or two with them). 
>> On 4/9/2011 7:10 AM, Mark wrote: 
> 
> Note the review here: 
> http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Deerso 
> Pretty much takes them off my radar forever. 
> 
> - Lee 

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Apr 13 09:54:05 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:54:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <F2F7CE64-5FD5-40A7-A5F6-BF0B68F1D482@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <1287110791.3631802.1302710045959.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Yes, Dad's tried every off-the-shelf product you can think of. He got a can of Tarnite at a swap meet and said it worked better than anything else he's tried. He even tried to make homebrew Tarnite, but it didn't work as well as the official product. 

Bob 

-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 



A bit late to the party, but have you tried Simichrome? 

jim 

From mpless at ucsd.edu  Wed Apr 13 09:55:22 2011
From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 08:55:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com> (from
	doug@dougbraun.com on Wed Apr 13 07:43:20 2011)
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
	<F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
	<4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>
	<c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
	<BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1302710122l.29369l.3l@servo.ucsd.edu>

Also late to the party, but when I was in the Navy we
made extensive use of NEVR-DULL "magic wadding polish".

http://www.nevrdull.com/

Just wipe it on the brightwork, let it dry and turn
into a hazy residue for a few minutes, and then wipe
it off with an old t-shirt. Do this until you can
surreptitiously paint over as much of the brightwork
as you think you can get away with.  ;-)

One word of caution; Nevr-Dull is extremely flammable.


--Marcus

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Apr 13 12:16:07 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:16:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I'll research some on the web and such, but my mother in law has a Shop 
Smith that was my father in law's before he died.  She's offered it to us 
for free, but we need to go get it, about 700 miles away.

I don't know what model, how old, or any of the rest.

Is there a newbie Shopsmith site or something around?  Mostly I'm curious 
if these are good quality / useful tools or if its some gimmicky thing 
that I'll forever be cursing.

Thanks!

Mark

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Apr 13 12:21:39 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:21:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <1302710122l.29369l.3l@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
	<F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
	<4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>
	<c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
	<BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1302710122l.29369l.3l@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131421240.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Marcus Pless wrote:
> One word of caution; Nevr-Dull is extremely flammable.

Hence the name.

:-)

Mark

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Wed Apr 13 13:36:31 2011
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:36:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <004701cbfa12$18a1bfc0$49e53f40$@cablespeed.com>

I've never used a Shopsmith, but my general experience is that multi-purpose
machines rarely do anything as well as a single purpose machine. They never
seem to be set up for the thing you want to do right now and it is generally
a hassle to do the changeover. I don't think I'd drive 1400 miles at today's
gas prices to pick one up.

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Apr 13 14:18:32 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:18:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <004701cbfa12$18a1bfc0$49e53f40$@cablespeed.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<004701cbfa12$18a1bfc0$49e53f40$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <0LJL00B23XQPGVD0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have never used one either, and I've always heard the same 
thing.  But I think the comparison changes when instead of 
multi-purpose vs single purpose you consider multi-purpose vs 
nothing.  If you don't have the money or space for the best solution, 
something like this can give you capabilities you would otherwise not 
have at all.  It's also an opportunity to learn and get your feet 
wet.  Besides, your wife probably wants to see her mother once in a 
while.  You can get a new tool and check off a MIL visit at the same time!

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 03:36 PM 4/13/2011, Gerald Brazil wrote:
>I've never used a Shopsmith, but my general experience is that multi-purpose
>machines rarely do anything as well as a single purpose machine. They never
>seem to be set up for the thing you want to do right now and it is generally
>a hassle to do the changeover. I don't think I'd drive 1400 miles at today's
>gas prices to pick one up.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 14:18:36 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:18:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <004701cbfa12$18a1bfc0$49e53f40$@cablespeed.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<004701cbfa12$18a1bfc0$49e53f40$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=OuqfsJ_aw7-U_d8m5JoTGYUW2CA@mail.gmail.com>

*I ended up with ShopSmith from a deceased*
*family member and it turned out to be a mod 10E, the very first one. Parts
are not available except used from Ebay and such. You don't want a 10E!*
* *
*The quality was acceptable, the change function time **was quick and I
think it would*
*a good way to ease into woodworking especially if it's a late model with
lots of attachments.  Besides, you probably need to go see your
mother-in-law anyway!*

From mikey at b2systems.com  Wed Apr 13 14:24:06 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:24:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>

  There was basically only one model of ShopSmith, the changes they made 
over the years (decades) were mostly cosmetic.

  Its a OK tool, I never was able to go from lathe/drill/etc. to table 
saw without spending time re-truing and getting everything square again, 
they advertised that you could but never worked for me.  As a table saw 
it was pretty so-so, certainly not great.  As a drill press, again 
so-so.  I used it a lot as a horizontal drill-press, made a lot of jobs 
easier.  As a wood lathe, its really hard to beat the ShopSmith, nice 
stable turning platform.  Its a good tool if you don't have the space, 
if you do then not so good.  I got a good table saw and drill press but 
I kept my ShopSmith to use a lathe and occasionally horizontal drill, it 
sits outside now under a tarp as I don't need a lathe often and its held 
up surprisingly well being outside for over 10 years now, I have had my 
ShopSmith since the late 1970's.

     Mike


On 04/13/2011 11:16 AM, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I'll research some on the web and such, but my mother in law has a 
> Shop Smith that was my father in law's before he died.  She's offered 
> it to us for free, but we need to go get it, about 700 miles away.
>
> I don't know what model, how old, or any of the rest.
>
> Is there a newbie Shopsmith site or something around?  Mostly I'm 
> curious if these are good quality / useful tools or if its some 
> gimmicky thing that I'll forever be cursing.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Wed Apr 13 14:50:35 2011
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:50:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4DA60C9B.2090502@comcast.net>

On 4/13/2011 2:16 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I'll research some on the web and such, but my mother in law has a 
> Shop Smith that was my father in law's before he died.  She's offered 
> it to us for free, but we need to go get it, about 700 miles away.
>
> I don't know what model, how old, or any of the rest.
>
> Is there a newbie Shopsmith site or something around?  Mostly I'm 
> curious if these are good quality / useful tools or if its some 
> gimmicky thing that I'll forever be cursing.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark

Haven't used one in decades, but the quality is generally good, better 
than many entry level tools but not as good as decent dedicated 
machines.  However, they are a pain to change function.  I've been told 
the table saw kicks back (blade grabs wood and violently throws it at 
you) but don't know it a real issue or just one users experience.  Most 
important feature of a table saw it the rip fence and I think the shop 
smith is weak there.  So I wouldn't even use it as a table saq

Personally I'd take it, if you have a truck/van and are visiting anyway, 
for the horizontal features: lathe and horiztonal boring.  Drill presses 
are reasonably cheap and I'd prefer a real contractors or cabinet table saw.

Peter T.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Apr 13 15:03:59 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:03:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <0LJL00B23XQPGVD0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<004701cbfa12$18a1bfc0$49e53f40$@cablespeed.com>
	<0LJL00B23XQPGVD0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131702370.17948@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Steven Trovato wrote:
> I have never used one either, and I've always heard the same thing. 
> But I think the comparison changes when instead of multi-purpose vs 
> single purpose you consider multi-purpose vs nothing.  If you don't have 
> the money or space for the best solution, something like this can give 
> you capabilities you would otherwise not have at all.  It's also an 
> opportunity to learn and get your feet wet.  Besides, your wife probably 
> wants to see her mother once in a while.  You can get a new tool and 
> check off a MIL visit at the same time!

:-)  Yeah, it looks like we'll be going there one way or the other anyway. 
It's more down to if I have to take a different vehicle to bring it 
back... :-)

Anyone know how much these things weigh and how well they break down?  I'm 
wondering if I can get one in the basement storage of our RV (38' diesel 
pusher, so its not a particularly small one...)

Mark

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 16:38:12 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:38:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131421240.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <4DA06563.3090207@comcast.net>
	<F2ED00D827A84CD9B191ACF7602C42F2@Dell9200>
	<4DA073AA.40006@comcast.net>
	<c77eee5a6df703323bed4baf590f639c.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
	<BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1302710122l.29369l.3l@servo.ucsd.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131421240.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=3bE_anM1GTK7bXrUU5YqiS3UQpw@mail.gmail.com>

*I volunteered to "do" **the whistle on a friend's steam tractor and the
dang thing must have weighed 50 pounds and hadn't been polished forever . .
I ended up using a mild scotch-brite*
*wheel on a slow electric drill for the first shine.  I finished with a
paste product called "Flitz" on a slow turning cloth wheel and final shine
by hand . . The best hint I have to offer*
*is how to preserve the shine:  apply a spray can spritz of silicone
sealer/lube and a quick rub. . . OFTEN.  Silicone doesn't dull the shine
like clear lacquer.
*
*For anyone with Army experience and grey hair, I bet you'll be a surprised
as I to find the old "Blitz Cloth" brass shining*
*rag is still to be found on the net.*
*
*

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Apr 13 16:46:16 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:46:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <008401cbfa2c$9c503bc0$d4f0b340$@rr.com>

FWIW, one of the Village Press magazines ran a multi-part article on
"improving" the Shopsmith a few years back.  If you do decide to get it, you
might want to find that article.  As I recall, it had quite a bit about
shortcomings (including parts that commonly fail) and ways to address them.

-- Randall 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 16:51:16 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:51:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:24 PM,*Someone wrote:*



>  There was basically only one model of ShopSmith, the changes they made
> over the years (decades) were mostly cosmetic.
>
*'Xcuse me!!:*
**

*1947 to 1953
10E (Experimental) &
10ER (Experimental Revised)*
These Machines were distributed to Montgomery Wards and many are still in
use today. They had exposed belts and were put on hand made benches. *These
units were NOT manufactured by Shopsmith, Inc. Shopsmith, Inc. has NO repair
parts for these tools*.

* I've "been" there and wish I hadn't!  *

*Tony*

From mikey at b2systems.com  Wed Apr 13 17:20:02 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:20:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA62FA2.9030600@b2systems.com>

  Ok, that is true there was one model (2 by your definition) prior to 
the Mark V and I assume there was a Mark I, II, III, IV before the V but 
I can't tell the difference between them if there even was those models, 
all you ever see for sale is the "one model" that they have made for the 
longest time, their early model is awfully rare nowdays.  I had a friend 
who had a 10E, he got rid of it after he saw my Mark V.  They made the 
"one model" from the mid-50's to 90's and the changes over decades were 
minor (in my opinion, I am sure they thought the changes were life 
changing or at least marketing implied that).

OK, I just went on the web and their own website says "An American 
Classic since 1953" and they are up to the Mark VII, I also see they 
still sell the things (I was pretty sure they went under in the 90s)

  So I stand corrected on my "one model" comment, yet the Mark VII looks 
exactly the same as my 30+ year old Mark V so I also stand "correct" on 
my "one model" comment :)  :)  :)

     mike

On 04/13/2011 03:51 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:24 PM,*Someone wrote:*
>
>      There was basically only one model of ShopSmith, the changes they
>     made over the years (decades) were mostly cosmetic.
>
> *'Xcuse me!!:*
> **
>
> *1947 to 1953
> 10E (Experimental) &
> 10ER (Experimental Revised)*
> These Machines were distributed to Montgomery Wards and many are still 
> in use today. They had exposed belts and were put on hand made 
> benches. *These units were NOT manufactured by Shopsmith, Inc. 
> /Shopsmith, Inc. has NO repair parts for these tools/*.
>
> * I've "been" there and wish I hadn't! *
>
> *Tony*

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 17:32:35 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:32:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <4DA62FA2.9030600@b2systems.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA62FA2.9030600@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik=mp1o_rThMSKbtcLSewhX=aVCUw@mail.gmail.com>

*I just checked the Dallas "Craig's List" and there are two of the dreaded
10E Shopsmiths for sale:  $100 & $500 respectively.*
**
*Mike knows his ShopSmiths, after the 10E models, they morph along right up
'til now with the same principle.*
**
*Someone on the list claims you can spend $6000 for one with all the
goodies!    Yikes!*
*Tony*

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Apr 13 17:53:42 2011
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:53:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA63786.1000708@hornesystemstx.com>

FWIW, My father has been doing repairs on Shopsmiths in the Los Angeles 
area for years. He has also been supplying rebuilt  speed control knobs 
that have a steel gear in them, instead of the factory pot metal.  I 
think he can still get parts, but I don't know for sure. Best thing if 
you are looking for Shopsmith parts, go to user grany555 on ebay and 
send him a message. He usually has at least one knob up for sale, but 
doesn't right now.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Elton E. (Tony) Clark, On 4/13/2011 5:51 PM:
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:24 PM,*Someone wrote:*
>
>
>
>>   There was basically only one model of ShopSmith, the changes they made
>> over the years (decades) were mostly cosmetic.
>>
> *'Xcuse me!!:*
> **
>
> *1947 to 1953
> 10E (Experimental)&
> 10ER (Experimental Revised)*
> These Machines were distributed to Montgomery Wards and many are still in
> use today. They had exposed belts and were put on hand made benches. *These
> units were NOT manufactured by Shopsmith, Inc. Shopsmith, Inc. has NO repair
> parts for these tools*.
>
> * I've "been" there and wish I hadn't!  *
>
> *Tony*
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Apr 13 17:54:23 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:54:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131952490.21007@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

>From talking to my wife, it sounds like this was her grandfather's tool, 
and he passed away in '68.  So my guess, based on the little research I've 
done, is that its a 10E or 10ER model.

I'm trying to hunt up some pictures.  Unfortunately, its at my MIL's 
cabin, and she's not there right now to look at the model # or whatever.

Mark

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Apr 13 19:15:36 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:15:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131952490.21007@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131952490.21007@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <0LJM003N3BJYRBN0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Has anyone looked at this thing lately?  Hopefully it has always been 
in a nice dry place.  That's a lot of years to sit idle.  Hopefully 
it hasn't turned into a solid block of rust.

-Steve

At 07:54 PM 4/13/2011, Mark Andy wrote:
>Howdy,
>
> From talking to my wife, it sounds like this was her grandfather's 
> tool, and he passed away in '68.

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Apr 13 19:23:16 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:23:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <0LJM003N3BJYRBN0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131413440.14423@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4DA60666.6030402@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTik8Y86vCTcQnjoGAJAVGC3qnCNang@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1104131952490.21007@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<0LJM003N3BJYRBN0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104132121070.22612@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Oh, its in decent shape.  I've seen it and my FIL used it until four 
years ago or so when he died.

Even more research is making me think its a '53-'60 Mark V.  My wife 
didn't remember it being on a bench, and remembers it being green.  Plus 
that's about the right era for her grandfather to have bought it.

Mark

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Steven Trovato wrote:
> Has anyone looked at this thing lately?  Hopefully it has always been in a 
> nice dry place.  That's a lot of years to sit idle.  Hopefully it hasn't 
> turned into a solid block of rust.
>
> -Steve
>
> At 07:54 PM 4/13/2011, Mark Andy wrote:
>> Howdy,
>> 
>> From talking to my wife, it sounds like this was her grandfather's tool, 
>> and he passed away in '68.

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Apr 13 19:21:55 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:21:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF9777C7A0.719316C1-ON85257872.000964F3-85257872.0009775F@mail.megageek.com>

Doug writes...
> They address they listed (in an obscure part of the web site) turned out 
to be some
>random house in NJ, 


You want me to stop by and pay them a 'visit'?  8>)


Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Douglas Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
04/13/2011 10:38

To
Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com>
cc
Shop-Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish






Avoid buying from an online vendor unless it has a well-known good
reputation, or a brick-and-mortar presence!

The vendors to avoid are ones who offer zillions of different types of
things, and are vague about their physical location.  At best, they
are just trolling for orders that eventually get relayed to somebody
else for fulfillment. A few months ago I ordered some welding supplies
from an online vendor that appeared to be nearby and listed exactly
what I wanted.  I placed the order, and ended up waiting three weeks,
instead of the day or two that I had anticipated.  They address they
listed (in an obscure part of the web site) turned out to be some
random house in NJ, and the stuff was eventually shipped from Florida.

Of course, the concept of drop-shipping predates the internet by many
years.  Go look at some of the small ads in the back of a 1970's
Popular Mechanics magazine. :-)

Lots of smaller traditional merchants (e.g. specialist hardware
stores) do online sales, but they brag about (and tell you the
location of) their brick-and-mortar establishment.

Doug



On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com> wrote:
> Regarding:
>
>>> http://test.deerso.com/9OZ_METAL_POLISH636896-details.aspx
>
> and
>
>> Pretty annoying that the website is inaccurate (and our credit card
company
>> might be having a word or two with them).
>> On 4/9/2011 7:10 AM, Mark wrote:
>
> Note the review here:
>  http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Deerso
> Pretty much takes them off my radar forever.
>
>  - Lee
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Apr 13 20:48:02 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:48:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Brass Polish
References: <BANLkTi=X_eQ+MMRMhXbjd1MohqRm4U2L5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0LJM00C0DFTB1OO0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I found this:

http://www.bbb.org/west-florida/business-reviews/hardware-retail/deersocom-in-cape-coral-fl-90050139

which leads one to believe that they're in Cape Coral, Florida.


At 09:21 PM 4/13/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>Doug writes...
> > They address they listed (in an obscure part of the web site) turned out
>to be some
> >random house in NJ,
>
>
>You want me to stop by and pay them a 'visit'?  8>)

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Apr 13 22:01:09 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 00:01:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Be careful!
Message-ID: <BANLkTimHHby2HQiF6CqrJ-DKsWDXp8rqbQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-dies-in-machine-shop-accident.html

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Apr 13 22:38:59 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 00:38:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Be careful!
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimHHby2HQiF6CqrJ-DKsWDXp8rqbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimHHby2HQiF6CqrJ-DKsWDXp8rqbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA67A63.6010103@xxiii.com>

On 4/14/2011 12:01 AM, Douglas Braun wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-dies-in-machine-shop-accident.html

Wants me to log in to view it.  Sorry, already have to many "log ins".

Didn't know they had "shop class" at Yale?!

-w

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Apr 13 23:03:46 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:03:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Be careful!
In-Reply-To: <4DA67A63.6010103@xxiii.com>
References: <BANLkTimHHby2HQiF6CqrJ-DKsWDXp8rqbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA67A63.6010103@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <059101cbfa61$56416890$0301a8c0@randall>

Worked for me.  Turns out it wasn't "shop" class, but a lathe apparently
used for making apparatus for a chemical lab.  However, they do offer shop
courses as Ms Dufault had reportedly completed an "introductory shop course"
and was taking an "advanced course in machine shop protocols".

Strange how such pretty hair can be an instrument of death.

-- Randall  

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Apr 13 23:10:08 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 01:10:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Be careful!
In-Reply-To: <4DA67A63.6010103@xxiii.com>
References: <BANLkTimHHby2HQiF6CqrJ-DKsWDXp8rqbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA67A63.6010103@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1104140107390.24881@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Wayne wrote:
> Wants me to log in to view it.  Sorry, already have to many "log ins".
> Didn't know they had "shop class" at Yale?!

    She was working in the machine shop after hours on a project involving 
using liquid helium to detect dark matter ( astromony and physics double 
major ).

    Apparently, her long hair got caught in the lathe, and she suffocated.

--
  David Hillman

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Apr 14 09:50:47 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:50:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
Message-ID: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>

I want to keep my post shop related, but I'm not sure this one qualifies. 
Here goes, yell at me if I'm wrong.

I have a wooden fence around my garden.  The posts are 4X4 2' in the 
ground.

The problem is this time of year when I need to rototill.  I have a 
tractor mounted unit.  To use it, I need to remove one side of the fence.

My question, is there a way to mount some sort of base to the 4X4 that 
would allow me to pull the posts out and place them back in easily?

Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the 
ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)

Any ideas or suggests?

I promise that the winning suggesting will get some fresh veggies from me 
when they come it (if they want them)! 

Thanks!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Apr 14 10:57:45 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:57:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1442175271.4135104.1302800265988.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> is there a way to mount some sort of base to the 4X4 that
> would allow me to pull the posts out and place them back in easily?

Spray fencepost with Pam.

Set post in concrete.

When concrete is good and dry, clamp crossbar onto post and jack post out with two jacks under crossbar.

Use tractor.

Shopvac out whatever fell in square concrete hole while using tractor.

Replace fencepost.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com

From drew at DasRogges.com  Thu Apr 14 10:58:53 2011
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:58:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DA727CD.7050507@DasRogges.com>

How about setting a piece of steel tubing in concrete and epoxying a steel
rod in the bottom of the posts. Then it's just a matter of slipping the
rod in the tube.

On 04/14/2011 08:50 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I want to keep my post shop related, but I'm not sure this one qualifies.
> Here goes, yell at me if I'm wrong.
>
> I have a wooden fence around my garden.  The posts are 4X4 2' in the
> ground.
>
> The problem is this time of year when I need to rototill.  I have a
> tractor mounted unit.  To use it, I need to remove one side of the fence.
>
> My question, is there a way to mount some sort of base to the 4X4 that
> would allow me to pull the posts out and place them back in easily?
>
> Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the
> ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)
>
> Any ideas or suggests?
>
> I promise that the winning suggesting will get some fresh veggies from me
> when they come it (if they want them)!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Apr 14 11:03:51 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:03:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <9E48F8C0-3453-4817-A0AF-B970C76C6E97@groupwbench.org>

On Apr 14, 2011, at 11:50 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> 
> Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the 
> ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ezfence.asp#gallery

WOuld that have enough purchase on the post to keep it tight?

jim

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Apr 14 11:03:38 2011
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:03:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DA728EA.80403@comcast.net>

On 4/14/2011 11:50 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I want to keep my post shop related, but I'm not sure this one qualifies.
> Here goes, yell at me if I'm wrong.
>
> I have a wooden fence around my garden.  The posts are 4X4 2' in the
> ground.
>
> The problem is this time of year when I need to rototill.  I have a
> tractor mounted unit.  To use it, I need to remove one side of the fence.
>
> My question, is there a way to mount some sort of base to the 4X4 that
> would allow me to pull the posts out and place them back in easily?
>
> Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the
> ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)
>
> Any ideas or suggests?
>
> I promise that the winning suggesting will get some fresh veggies from me
> when they come it (if they want them)!
>
> Thanks!

Pull the post and wrap it in a couple of layers of poly.  The layers 
should be about 1/16" on all four sides.  Set the post wrapped in poly 
in cement.  After it cures, pull post out and remove the poly.  You've 
now got a socket a little bigger than your post. Ideally you should dig 
a hole below the frost line and fill the bottom with gravel for 
drainage.  Set the poly wrapped post on gravel and fill around it with 
cement.  This way the socket runs completely through the cement block 
and any water that runs down the post won't be trapped in the socket and 
rot the post.  Also make sure the post doesn't have any large voids that 
will fill with cement.  The layers of poly will handle small voids.

Peter
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 11:14:20 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:14:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikSrGZCChv16SWVJTZB5Biq8tw9UA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:50 AM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I want to keep my post shop related, but I'm not sure this one qualifies.
> Here goes, yell at me if I'm wrong.
>
> I have a wooden fence around my garden. B The posts are 4X4 2' in the
> ground.
>
> The problem is this time of year when I need to rototill. B I have a
> tractor mounted unit. B To use it, I need to remove one side of the fence.
>
> My question, is there a way to mount some sort of base to the 4X4 that
> would allow me to pull the posts out and place them back in easily?
>
> Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the
> ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)
>
> Any ideas or suggests?
>

PostShield.  http://www.postshieldusa.com/cs/
It's a pvc sleeve that you bury, usually setting in concrete, and
which takes a 4x4 post.  The posts are usually lag screwed to the
sleeve.  No good if you need to have smooth ground, but I don't think
you do, you just need to not run over them with your tractor.

If you need totally flat ground, there are solutions for steel fences
posts.  (complete with covers for the holes when the fence isn't
there).  I don't know brands though, just seen them.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Apr 14 14:02:19 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:02:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
Message-ID: <0LJN00JOWRP0UZA0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Can you use something like this?

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ezfence.asp

I use something similar for my mailbox.  When something breaks, I can 
take the whole thing off the base, fix it and put it back.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 11:50 AM 4/14/2011, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>I want to keep my post shop related, but I'm not sure this one qualifies.
>Here goes, yell at me if I'm wrong.
>
>I have a wooden fence around my garden.  The posts are 4X4 2' in the
>ground.
>
>The problem is this time of year when I need to rototill.  I have a
>tractor mounted unit.  To use it, I need to remove one side of the fence.
>
>My question, is there a way to mount some sort of base to the 4X4 that
>would allow me to pull the posts out and place them back in easily?
>
>Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the
>ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)
>
>Any ideas or suggests?

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Apr 14 14:05:33 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:05:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <9E48F8C0-3453-4817-A0AF-B970C76C6E97@groupwbench.org>
References: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
	<9E48F8C0-3453-4817-A0AF-B970C76C6E97@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <0LJN00F38RSZR3E0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Oops.  Jim beat me to it.  I guess this just gets two votes now.

-Steve T.

At 01:03 PM 4/14/2011, Jim Franklin wrote:
>On Apr 14, 2011, at 11:50 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> >
> > Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the
> > ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)
>
>http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ezfence.asp#gallery

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Thu Apr 14 16:42:22 2011
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:42:22 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <9E48F8C0-3453-4817-A0AF-B970C76C6E97@groupwbench.org>
References: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
	<9E48F8C0-3453-4817-A0AF-B970C76C6E97@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4DA7784E.7080601@talktalk.net>

I used something similar for a removable picket fence. I used 2x2" posts 
for three 6ft sections of fence - allowed me to lift out the fence to 
drive the mower through - made it really easy to keep the grass each 
side tidy.

Why not have an untilled strip adjacent to the fence? - that would save 
lifting the fence & posts (& reduce risk of dinging the foundations with 
the tiller).
Neil

On 14/04/2011 18:03, Jim Franklin wrote:
> On Apr 14, 2011, at 11:50 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>> Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the
>> ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)
> http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ezfence.asp#gallery
>
> WOuld that have enough purchase on the post to keep it tight?
>
> jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 14 18:32:47 2011
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 17:32:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is a fence part of a shop?
In-Reply-To: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1D7AD16E.FA4B678B-ON85257872.0058A070-85257872.00590382@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DA7922F.1080402@earthlink.net>

I was going to suggest two sections of angle iron mounted in concrete 
that you could then lag the fence post to, but the Simpson E-Z Base 
already suggested looks like a better product you can get off the 
shelf.  I know people that use the E-Z Spike for mailboxes, but I don't 
know that it would stay stable enough for a gate post.

We had a fence rot out and they used some j-bolts to bolt a pair of 3" 
aluminum angle iron brackets to a blob of concrete.  The fence posts 
were lag bolted to the angle.  No wood in contact with the ground.  Felt 
sturdy, even at the gate.

Brian

On 4/14/2011 8:50 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I want to keep my post shop related, but I'm not sure this one qualifies.
> Here goes, yell at me if I'm wrong.
>
> I have a wooden fence around my garden.  The posts are 4X4 2' in the
> ground.
>
> The problem is this time of year when I need to rototill.  I have a
> tractor mounted unit.  To use it, I need to remove one side of the fence.
>
> My question, is there a way to mount some sort of base to the 4X4 that
> would allow me to pull the posts out and place them back in easily?
>
> Since the gate in on this side, the post need to be tight when in the
> ground (so putting a sonotube in the ground would have too much play.)
>
> Any ideas or suggests?
>
> I promise that the winning suggesting will get some fresh veggies from me
> when they come it (if they want them)!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Apr 15 13:07:47 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:07:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Well Water Pressure Tanks
Message-ID: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys,

Somewhat OT question:  anyone know much about reliability of well water 
pressure tanks?  (I depend on mine for washing up after working in the 
shop, as well as cleaning car parts in the dishwasher.)  I understand 
sizing, and that's it's all about maximizing pump cycle times and a 
bigger tank is better.

Mostly interested in anyone's experience with longevity and reliability 
of various brands.  Lowes has an absurdly cheap 86 gal tank for $332; 
but I'm very suspect of their quality.  Good brands seem to be 
Well-X-Trol (mine died at 11 years), Flexcon, and Goulds.  any input?

-Wayne

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 13:34:53 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:34:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Well Water Pressure Tanks
In-Reply-To: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4DA89DDD.6010103@gmail.com>

I don't have any answers, but I'm also very interested.  We have only 
wells for water here, and our water pressure is always problematic, to 
say nothing of it randomly cutting off entirely at one house.  I'd 
really like to better understand the entire system so I could repair and 
upgrade.

And here, at least, the issues isn't lack of water in the well--there's 
enough ground water here to power a dam--it's all about the 
installation, I suspect.

This really isn't the list for it, I suspect, but if anyone knows of a 
good online resource for well plumbing, and filtration (one house has 
incredible amounts of silt in the well water), I'd love to hear about 
it.  I've accepted that part of living here entails becoming a plumber 
(and electrician, and, and, and...)

On 4/15/2011 3:07 PM, Wayne wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
> Somewhat OT question:  anyone know much about reliability of well 
> water pressure tanks?  (I depend on mine for washing up after working 
> in the shop, as well as cleaning car parts in the dishwasher.)  I 
> understand sizing, and that's it's all about maximizing pump cycle 
> times and a bigger tank is better.
>
> Mostly interested in anyone's experience with longevity and 
> reliability of various brands.  Lowes has an absurdly cheap 86 gal 
> tank for $332; but I'm very suspect of their quality.  Good brands 
> seem to be Well-X-Trol (mine died at 11 years), Flexcon, and Goulds.  
> any input?

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 13:35:56 2011
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:35:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Well Water Pressure Tanks
In-Reply-To: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>

I would argue that bigger is not always better.  Basically you need to match
the type of tank to your well pump.  When we built our new home a couple
years ago I was surprised to learn how much the technology for well pumps
has changed recently.  We ended up going with a 3-phase (driven by a small
phase converter off single phase residential 220). high pressure-high flow
pump on a phase converter and a tiny pressure tank (only about two
gallons).  This is the best well system I have ever used.  The pressure is
on instantly and does not fall off at all.  I can run two showers and water
the lawn all at the same time with no loss of pressure.  If you are sticking
with an older pump, you will probably want to go with a big pump.  But if
you are considering a new pump, I would highly recommend a system like mine.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> Hey Guys,
>
> Somewhat OT question:  anyone know much about reliability of well water
> pressure tanks?  (I depend on mine for washing up after working in the shop,
> as well as cleaning car parts in the dishwasher.)  I understand sizing, and
> that's it's all about maximizing pump cycle times and a bigger tank is
> better.
>
> Mostly interested in anyone's experience with longevity and reliability of
> various brands.  Lowes has an absurdly cheap 86 gal tank for $332; but I'm
> very suspect of their quality.  Good brands seem to be Well-X-Trol (mine
> died at 11 years), Flexcon, and Goulds.  any input?
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>


-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Apr 15 14:14:49 2011
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:14:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Well Water Pressure Tanks
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinLke0Co4f6zx6+nwr5rMhGb-FSoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Isn't there a huge variation in requirements depending on how deep the well
is?

(Around here, my basement would fill up with water in the springtime
if there was no sump pump...)

Doug

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 3:35 PM, John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would argue that bigger is not always better.  Basically you need to
match
> the type of tank to your well pump.  When we built our new home a couple
> years ago I was surprised to learn how much the technology for well pumps
> has changed recently.  We ended up going with a 3-phase (driven by a small
> phase converter off single phase residential 220). high pressure-high flow
> pump on a phase converter and a tiny pressure tank (only about two
> gallons).  This is the best well system I have ever used.  The pressure is
> on instantly and does not fall off at all.  I can run two showers and water
> the lawn all at the same time with no loss of pressure.  If you are
sticking
> with an older pump, you will probably want to go with a big pump.  But if
> you are considering a new pump, I would highly recommend a system like
mine.

From mbarre at juno.com  Fri Apr 15 14:14:46 2011
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:14:46 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Not OT!
Message-ID: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>

One of the great things about this list is we seem to have some superb
expertise in many areas - mechanical, electrical, etc.
As long as we stay away from politics and religion, our net is cast pretty
wide and I enjoy and learn from most of the variety of discussions we have be
they practical, theoretical or even off the wall.

Matt

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 14:38:02 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:38:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Well Water Pressure Tanks
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA8ACAA.6000808@gmail.com>

John,

Is your pump on the (bottom) end of the well pipe?  My pump, for 
example, is on the end of about 50 feet of steel pipe sunk into my 
backyard.

And you mind sharing what that setup cost, and where you got it?  I'm to 
the point that I might build a derrick to pull my well out of the ground 
if I need to--there is no competent repair or service option locally.

On 4/15/2011 3:35 PM, John Innis wrote:
> I would argue that bigger is not always better.  Basically you need to match
> the type of tank to your well pump.  When we built our new home a couple
> years ago I was surprised to learn how much the technology for well pumps
> has changed recently.  We ended up going with a 3-phase (driven by a small
> phase converter off single phase residential 220). high pressure-high flow
> pump on a phase converter and a tiny pressure tank (only about two
> gallons).  This is the best well system I have ever used.  The pressure is
> on instantly and does not fall off at all.  I can run two showers and water
> the lawn all at the same time with no loss of pressure.  If you are sticking
> with an older pump, you will probably want to go with a big pump.  But if
> you are considering a new pump, I would highly recommend a system like mine.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Apr 15 14:48:30 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:48:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Well Water Pressure Tanks
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinLke0Co4f6zx6+nwr5rMhGb-FSoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinLke0Co4f6zx6+nwr5rMhGb-FSoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA8AF1E.1080609@xxiii.com>

On 4/15/2011 4:14 PM, Douglas Braun wrote:
> Isn't there a huge variation in requirements depending on how deep the well is?

Indirectly related to depth.  Deep well submersible pumps are fairly 
large, 1/2 - 3 HP typically depending on the depth.  Cycling them on and 
off rapidly is bad for pump longevity and your electric bill.  Even the 
smallest of pumps are supposed to be run for a minute or so, then off 
for several.  Two minutes run time is even better.  20 - 35% duty cycle 
sounds typical;  if you run for a minute and are off for two or three or 
more, that's good.

My pump puts out 11.5 gal/min.  The undersized 20 gal (total volume) 
tank has about 5 - 6 gallons "draw down" per cycle (30% of total volume 
seems typical draw down.)  That would have it run for about 30 seconds, 
then maybe 1 - 2 minutes off with a continuous draw.  Now the diaphragm 
is leaking and it runs for 15 seconds to supply about 2.8 gallons, and 
is probably only off 45 seconds in between.

Some places try to baes tank size on house demand;  this is totally 
wrong from what I can figure out.  You need to know pump delivery 
volume, and get a tank that allows 1 - 2 minute run times.  The bigger 
the pump HP, the longer the suggested run time (thus the indirect 
relation I mentioned -- deeper wells require larger pumps, and longer runs.)

Oh -- how did I recognize my tank had failed?  Air surges and bubbles in 
the water.  Then I realized I could hear the thing buzzing through the 
plumbing and a loud "click" of the pressure switch in the basement. 
About a month ago I noticed I could open a faucet or flush and hear it 
instantly kick on, then run for only 15 seconds or so.

-Wayne

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Apr 15 14:54:43 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:54:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Not OT!
In-Reply-To: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <4DA8B093.4020400@xxiii.com>

On 4/15/2011 4:14 PM, Matt wrote:
> One of the great things about this list is we seem to have some superb
> expertise in many areas - mechanical, electrical, etc.
> As long as we stay away from politics and religion, our net is cast pretty
> wide and I enjoy and learn from most of the variety of discussions we have be

I'm with ya' there!  On other mailing lists, I really resent OT crap. 
Here, we seem to stray off into home improvement, lawn & garden, and 
general mechanical / design / engineering topics, but it's all good with 
me  :)  Some stuff, like the recent brass polish, I have no interest in 
nor anything to contribute so I just delete.  But other stuff is quite 
interesting, like the firewood vending machine from a few months back.

-Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 15:24:24 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:24:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Well Water Pressure Tanks
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinLke0Co4f6zx6+nwr5rMhGb-FSoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinLke0Co4f6zx6+nwr5rMhGb-FSoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=tZN+aZ_72pWFC8ZPaX6XH+5j6cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Douglas Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Isn't there a huge variation in requirements depending on how deep the well
> is?
>
> (Around here, my basement would fill up with water in the springtime
> if there was no sump pump...)
>



Pump, tank, and well are a system.  They need to be matched.  If you
have a well that's a really slow producer, you need a bigger storage
tank (and maybe a second pump for water pressure for the loads.).  IF
you've got a high-volume well, you can get by with a small tank.  IF
you're in the middle, with a well that generally produces about the
demand, you need a fairly large tank.




-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Fri Apr 15 15:39:10 2011
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:39:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Not OT!
In-Reply-To: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <002101cbfbb5$8fc7cf00$af576d00$@cablespeed.com>

My sediments as well   ;-)

From shiples at comcast.net  Fri Apr 15 16:52:43 2011
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:52:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Not OT!
In-Reply-To: <002101cbfbb5$8fc7cf00$af576d00$@cablespeed.com>
References: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
	<20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20110415154149.03c92e00@mail.comcast.net>

At 05:39 PM 4/15/2011 -0400, Gerald Brazil wrote:
>My sediments as well   ;-)

I can tolerate and even appreciate most of the off topic stuff that shows 
up here.
And I can tolerate and appreciate it even more when it's labeled off topic.

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 17:30:52 2011
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:30:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Well Water Pressure Tanks
In-Reply-To: <4DA8ACAA.6000808@gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA8ACAA.6000808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=-BecS80VGFr6ymB2afau9AcXJig@mail.gmail.com>

The Pump is at the bottom of the well.  The well in this case is about 190'
deep, fully lined to keep the ag runoff out of it.  The Pump is an ITT
Goulds 2hp 4" submersible Franklin Motor Model 18GS20432, running 230V
3Phase.  The Controller/Phase converter is also ITT Goulds Balanced Flow
Submersible Pump Controller model BF20.    The Tank is a Flow-Thru model
FT18 4.5 gallon size stainless, rated to 125PSI.  At rest the system sits
about 75PSI.  Working the system pushes about 70PSI.  I am guessing the pump
is a non-constant displacement, as it runs for several seconds after the
water is turned off and the pressure has stabilized.  I do know that the
pump is not a simple on/off arrangement, the controller regulates power to
the pump to maintain a constant pressure.  I had all this installed when we
built the house by Wickman Pump in Coggon, IA.  The whole setup cost us
about $2300 (not including the well drilling).  This was all done in 2007.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Scott Hall
<scott.hall.personal at gmail.com>wrote:

> John,
>
> Is your pump on the (bottom) end of the well pipe?  My pump, for example,
> is on the end of about 50 feet of steel pipe sunk into my backyard.
>
> And you mind sharing what that setup cost, and where you got it?  I'm to
> the point that I might build a derrick to pull my well out of the ground if
> I need to--there is no competent repair or service option locally.
>
>
> On 4/15/2011 3:35 PM, John Innis wrote:
>
>> I would argue that bigger is not always better.  Basically you need to
>> match
>> the type of tank to your well pump.  When we built our new home a couple
>> years ago I was surprised to learn how much the technology for well pumps
>> has changed recently.  We ended up going with a 3-phase (driven by a small
>> phase converter off single phase residential 220). high pressure-high flow
>> pump on a phase converter and a tiny pressure tank (only about two
>> gallons).  This is the best well system I have ever used.  The pressure is
>> on instantly and does not fall off at all.  I can run two showers and
>> water
>> the lawn all at the same time with no loss of pressure.  If you are
>> sticking
>> with an older pump, you will probably want to go with a big pump.  But if
>> you are considering a new pump, I would highly recommend a system like
>> mine.
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>


-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Apr 15 18:53:43 2011
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:53:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Not OT!
In-Reply-To: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <4DA8E897.2000808@bradakis.com>

Matt wrote:
> One of the great things about this list is we seem to have some superb
> expertise in many areas

Yep.  Pretty much anything that may require the purchase of
a new tool is allowed.  Anything that could result in physical
damage to the item in question, or yourself, is allowed.
Extra points if you post a video.  If it involves a trip to Home Depot,
Lowes, Sears or Victoria's ... uh, scratch that last one.

mjb.

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 20:25:55 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:25:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Not OT!
In-Reply-To: <4DA8E897.2000808@bradakis.com>
References: <20110415.161446.25881.1@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
	<4DA8E897.2000808@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <4DA8FE33.8090708@gmail.com>

This is probably the only mailing list/web forum/etc. of which I'm a 
part that I enjoy the OT stuff as much as the on topic material, or even 
at all.  There's just so much accumulated knowledge here that I'm more 
than happy to to see what the various minds produce.

On 4/15/2011 8:53 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
>
> Yep.  Pretty much anything that may require the purchase of
> a new tool is allowed.  Anything that could result in physical
> damage to the item in question, or yourself, is allowed.
> Extra points if you post a video.  If it involves a trip to Home Depot,
> Lowes, Sears or Victoria's ... uh, scratch that last one.

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sat Apr 16 09:20:39 2011
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:20:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
Message-ID: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>

OK since most of us agree that there is a great amount of talent in this
group I have a new challenge for it. I hope there are a few experts in
wireless remote control devices.

 

Here's my problem.

 

I have an '09 Nissan Murano with a remote rear tailgate. The car has one of
the "smart key" systems that you don't have to take out of your pocket. I
first realized I had a problem one winter morning when I came out and found
my tailgate open and about 6" of snow in the back. I wondered how the
tailgate opened. It happened a time or two again and I was scratching my
head as to why. Then one day I was doing something in the garage that
involved bending, stooping and lifting and all of a sudden I heard my horn
sounding the panic alarm. It was then that I had a clue..when I had the key
fob in my pocket and got into just the right contortions it could press the
panic  button or the lift gate button. So, I invented a somewhat crude but
effective (more or less) solution. 

 

I found a piece of really large heat shrink tubing that would slide snuggly
over the fob. I cut it long enough to cover the panic button and the lift
gate button. I then carved a thin piece of wood to the contour of the fob. I
then used electrical tape to fasten it to the heat shrink tubing. I now had
a device that would cover the two critical buttons but could be slid down if
you needed to use it. My problem seemed to be solved for a while. Then it
happened a few times again. This time we narrowed the problem down to my
wife's VERY STUFF purse. If she threw her purse into her car just right, my
alarm would go off or the tailgate open. We solved the problem by having her
put her spare set of keys for my car into a case so the buttons couldn't be
pushed accidentally. This solved more of our problems but unfortunately not
all of them. In the last few months I have had two occasions when I came out
in the morning and found the tailgate open. My wife's keys were still in the
hard side case and I don't recall twisting into any unusual contortions with
the keys in my pocket. I still had my Rube Goldberg device on it anyway. 

 

I am now wondering if there is some source of a stray signal that could be
causing this to happen. Since I don't have a clue about the technology
involved in these remotes I am throwing my problem to the group and
hopefully we can all learn a little more.

 

I am awaiting the group's collective wisdom...

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 16 10:46:57 2011
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 09:46:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
In-Reply-To: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <4DA9C801.7060301@earthlink.net>

George - I'll be watching for responses.  My Honda Odyssey keys do a 
similar action with the power sliding doors.  Fortunately, if the car is 
locked, nothing will open.  If the unlock button is pushed and no doors 
are opened, after about a minute, the car will relock itself.   My panic 
button is recessed and narrow, so I have not had an accidental press of it.

I did minimize the issue by rearranging my keys on the key chain.  I now 
have bigger key the covers the buttons on the adjacent key fob and hear 
the click and beep of the doors failing to open because the car is locked.

Brian

On 4/16/2011 8:20 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> OK since most of us agree that there is a great amount of talent in this
> group I have a new challenge for it. I hope there are a few experts in
> wireless remote control devices.
>
>
>
> Here's my problem.
>
>
>
> I have an '09 Nissan Murano with a remote rear tailgate. The car has one of
> the "smart key" systems that you don't have to take out of your pocket. I
> first realized I had a problem one winter morning when I came out and found
> my tailgate open and about 6" of snow in the back. I wondered how the
> tailgate opened. It happened a time or two again and I was scratching my
> head as to why. Then one day I was doing something in the garage that
> involved bending, stooping and lifting and all of a sudden I heard my horn
> sounding the panic alarm. It was then that I had a clue..when I had the key
> fob in my pocket and got into just the right contortions it could press the
> panic  button or the lift gate button. So, I invented a somewhat crude but
> effective (more or less) solution.
>
>
>
> I found a piece of really large heat shrink tubing that would slide snuggly
> over the fob. I cut it long enough to cover the panic button and the lift
> gate button. I then carved a thin piece of wood to the contour of the fob. I
> then used electrical tape to fasten it to the heat shrink tubing. I now had
> a device that would cover the two critical buttons but could be slid down if
> you needed to use it. My problem seemed to be solved for a while. Then it
> happened a few times again. This time we narrowed the problem down to my
> wife's VERY STUFF purse. If she threw her purse into her car just right, my
> alarm would go off or the tailgate open. We solved the problem by having her
> put her spare set of keys for my car into a case so the buttons couldn't be
> pushed accidentally. This solved more of our problems but unfortunately not
> all of them. In the last few months I have had two occasions when I came out
> in the morning and found the tailgate open. My wife's keys were still in the
> hard side case and I don't recall twisting into any unusual contortions with
> the keys in my pocket. I still had my Rube Goldberg device on it anyway.
>
>
>
> I am now wondering if there is some source of a stray signal that could be
> causing this to happen. Since I don't have a clue about the technology
> involved in these remotes I am throwing my problem to the group and
> hopefully we can all learn a little more.
>
>
>
> I am awaiting the group's collective wisdom...
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Apr 16 11:23:08 2011
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:23:08 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
Message-ID: <20110416.132308.3574.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>

My wife's Honda pilot also seems to suffer from spurious lock/unlock
syndrome.
I used to credit it to accidental remote actuation, but she has sworn that she
hadn't
touched her keys (they hang on a rack) and it always happens at home.
Both neighbors have Honda/Acuras so I attributed it to them.

There was news recently that inadvertent actuation of remote starters had led
to several cases of carbon monoxide poising with fatalities where a car was
running in an attached garage unbeknown to the occupants of the house.

Matt



 Gerald wrote:

Here's my problem.
I have an '09 Nissan Murano with a remote rear tailgate. The car has one of
the "smart key" systems that y...

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Apr 16 11:32:58 2011
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:32:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
In-Reply-To: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <4DA9D2CA.4070606@xxiii.com>

On 4/16/2011 11:20 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> I have an '09 Nissan Murano with a remote rear tailgate. The car has one of
> the "smart key" systems that you don't have to take out of your pocket. I
>[[snip]]
> I am now wondering if there is some source of a stray signal that could be
> causing this to happen. Since I don't have a clue about the technology
> involved in these remotes I am throwing my problem to the group and

Nothing off the top of my head.  Have you tried any of the Nissan forums 
on the web?  There are a couple general ones, and a Murano specific one.

This sounds like someone with the same prob:
http://www.nissanmurano.org/forums/83-2nd-gen-2009/14791-wireless-key-fob-panic-button-goes-off.html

This one is general, and has links to a bunch of others:
http://www.nissanclub.com/forums/

-wayne

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Apr 16 13:56:59 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:56:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110416155636.04c57dc8@cox.net>

At 11:20 AM 4/16/2011, Gerald Brazil wrote:

 >OK since most of us agree that there is a great amount of talent in this
 >group I have a new challenge for it. I hope there are a few experts in
 >wireless remote control devices.

Gerald,

A couple of ideas.

1.  What I've done is to put my keys on several different circular 
key rings.  I have
      one ring that contains the keys for my xB, the wife's mini van, 
and my Morgan.
      Another key ring has the keys for my dads F150 truck.  Another 
ring has the house,
      garage and other misc. keys, and finally one last ring that has 
the remote entry key
      fob for my xb.

      All of these key rings are on a caribiner (the cheap $1).  I 
attach this caribiner to a
      belt loop in on my pants.  This has eliminated a lot of holes 
being poked in my pants
      and legs due to the keys.

      So when I need the keys to the car, I take the caribiner off my 
pants, remove the
      ring with the car keys off the caribiner.  I insert these keys 
into the ignition and off
      I go.  These does a couple of things for me:

           a.  I don't have a heavy wad of keys pulling on the 
ignition lock and wearing it
                out.

           b. If I do inadvertantly lock my keys in the car, I have 
the remote entry fob on
                my belt, not stuck in the ignition lock, so I can get 
in the car and retreive my
                keys.

2. I doubt that there is anyone else in the neighborhood that is 
causing the problem
     with your tailgate, at least from the key fob route.  These 
remote entry systems use
     a radio frequency (RF) signal (so the bs about holding your cell 
phone up to the door
     and having some press another fob doesn't work) and has a 
rolling security code
     that changes everytime you use the system.

3. However, that doesn't preclude something like a Ham or CBer in the 
neighborhood
     that may have a stray signal of some power that is over riding 
your system.  I've
     heard a story of a fellow that had something on his car go 
biserk on his way to work
     every morning.  Come to find out, he passed a pretty high power 
transmitter and
     that the rf signal was getting into his car's electrical system 
and over causing all
     sorts of things do to the rf interference.


My wife also uses the caribiner system.  She can attach the caribiner 
to the strap of
her purse or just drop the entire thing into the purse depending on 
how much stuff she
has in the purse.


Hope this helps.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Apr 16 14:05:37 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:05:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
In-Reply-To: <008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>

At 12:49 PM 4/16/2011, Gerald Brazil wrote:

 >I really think that now I am down to some sort of stray signal that 
is doing it.
 >We've pretty much eliminated the accidental bump. I don't  know anything
 >about radio so I am not sure what to do....I asked the Nissan 
service manager
 >but he said all they knew was how to check to see if it worked and 
replace it if
 >it didn't. He said they had no procedures for checking for 
unintended operation.

Gerry,

Look around your neighborhood for any unusual antennas.  If you see any, you
might want to go up and knock on their doors.  Ask them if they are Hams or
CBs, and explain your problem.  Ask if they help with an experiment and have
then try transmitting and see if that affects your vechile.

 From a ham's standpoint we are allowed may different types of or modes of
communications from teletype, morse code, voice, slow scan tv, fast scan tv,
and many more.  So it could be a result of one of these modes.

Basically it may not be easy to figure out if they are interfeering 
with your keyless
remote.  But it's a good start.

My son has a 95 Ford Taurus with a keyless remote entry system that is a
"factory" feature on his car.  Over the last several years, his car 
has developed
a strange habbit of having the door automatically unlock (after he has locked
then) when the temps get below something like 40 deg.  I have found this
problem documented on some Ford forums, but not found a fix.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Apr 16 14:18:42 2011
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:18:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
In-Reply-To: <20110416.132308.3574.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20110416.132308.3574.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <007701cbfc73$7b6ef920$0301a8c0@randall>

> There was news recently that inadvertent actuation of remote 
> starters 

This sounds a bit like the old birthday paradox.  The remotes work by having
effectively millions of different encryption sequences (actually different
parts of the same very long sequence).  But get enough owners together, and
the odds of two of them having the same sequence becomes surprisingly high.

With the birthday paradox, although the chances of any two randomly chosen
people having the same birthday is only 1 in 365; the odds are 50/50 that a
group of 23 people will have at least two with the same birthday.

However, I'd probably try replacing the fobs first.  The buttons on mine
(not a Nissan) will sometimes touch down just from the pressure of my pants
leg on them.  I'm not certain, but it may be that the learning process (to
mate a new fob to the car) also resets the sequence, so it would also solve
the problem of the car responding to your neighbor's fob.

-- Randall  

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Apr 17 07:36:30 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:36:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
In-Reply-To: <00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>

At 08:48 PM 4/16/2011, Gerry wrote:

 >Your story about your son's problem is somewhat similar to a problem I have
 >had with my 03 Murano since it was new....The car will lock itself when you
 >are not expecting it......

 >My theory is that there is a control rod somewhere between a solenoid and a
 >lock that is a few thousands too long or too short and when the temps are
 >extreme it trips the lock......

Gerry,

You could test that idea pretty easily.  When you are expecting an extreme in
the weather, check on the car to see if it locked itself.  If it did, 
go in and remove
the fuse to the electrical locks, or the remote entry system.  Then 
see if it locks
itself again.  If so, then your idea about it being mechanical is a 
good one.  If
it doesn't lock with the fuse pulled then it's electrical.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From pethier at comcast.net  Sun Apr 17 10:57:17 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:57:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1324364593.7667.1303059437749.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> At 08:48 PM 4/16/2011, Gerry wrote:
> 
>  >Your story about your son's problem is somewhat similar to a problem
> I have
>  >had with my 03 Murano since it was new....The car will lock itself
> when you
>  >are not expecting it......
> 
>  >My theory is that there is a control rod somewhere between a
> solenoid and a
>  >lock that is a few thousands too long or too short and when the
> temps are
>  >extreme it trips the lock......


My theory is that you bumping the remote by accident.  Well, at least that is my theory on my Saturn.


Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Apr 17 11:51:20 2011
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:51:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] A new OT problem.....
In-Reply-To: <1324364593.7667.1303059437749.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1324364593.7667.1303059437749.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104171350310.30712@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> My theory is that you bumping the remote by accident.  Well, at least 
> that is my theory on my Saturn.

Mine too.  I'd say to take off the keyfobs (if its not integrated into the 
key) for a week and just use the keys.  See if you keep having the 
problem.

Mark

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Apr 17 14:02:38 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:02:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>

I've got an engine that's frozen (stuck).  My theory is that they ran it 
without oil.  The bearings don't look bad but the small ends of the rods 
look like they got hot.  I need to get the pistons knocked out.

With the engine in the car I pulled the head off and soaked the tops of 
the pistons in PB Blaster, but it didn't seem to help.   but then that 
is trying to rotate all 4 pistons at one time.  I pulled the engine out, 
pulled off the pan, and tried to knock the pistons out one at a time.  I 
couldn't get them to move.

I've finally decided that the PB Blaster might go beside the pistons but 
maybe it couldn't get by the rings.  So I can try soaking the pistons 
from the bottom.  Someone told me to soak the cylinders in diesel.  I'm 
wondering if there is anything that would be better, such as ATF (I've 
got some extra ATF).  I can set the engine upside down and fill the 
bottom half of the cylinder and let it set for awhile.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Apr 17 14:17:06 2011
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:17:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4DAB4AC2.70504@hornesystemstx.com>

If PB blaster from the top and bottom doesn't loosen the piston, and you 
think the rings are what is holding the pistons from moving, try 
rotating the pistons in the bores. If the rings are stuck you should be 
able to get some rotation. if not it is time to go for a press to push 
the pistons down. It may be something that will need to be done by a 
machine shop, or you get to buy another tool!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake BJNoSHOV8, On 4/17/2011 3:02 PM:
> I've got an engine that's frozen (stuck).  My theory is that they ran 
> it without oil.  The bearings don't look bad but the small ends of the 
> rods look like they got hot.  I need to get the pistons knocked out.
>
> With the engine in the car I pulled the head off and soaked the tops 
> of the pistons in PB Blaster, but it didn't seem to help.   but then 
> that is trying to rotate all 4 pistons at one time.  I pulled the 
> engine out, pulled off the pan, and tried to knock the pistons out one 
> at a time.  I couldn't get them to move.
>
> I've finally decided that the PB Blaster might go beside the pistons 
> but maybe it couldn't get by the rings.  So I can try soaking the 
> pistons from the bottom.  Someone told me to soak the cylinders in 
> diesel.  I'm wondering if there is anything that would be better, such 
> as ATF (I've got some extra ATF).  I can set the engine upside down 
> and fill the bottom half of the cylinder and let it set for awhile.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Apr 17 14:17:31 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:17:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ADD4C256-B7D4-44F9-BF1D-88BFE859006B@groupwbench.org>

On Apr 17, 2011, at 4:02 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:

>
> I've finally decided that the PB Blaster might go beside the pistons but
maybe it couldn't get by the rings.  So I can try soaking the pistons from the
bottom.  Someone told me to soak the cylinders in diesel.  I'm wondering if
there is anything that would be better, such as ATF (I've got some extra ATF).
I can set the engine upside down and fill the bottom half of the cylinder and
let it set for awhile.

Cut the ATF 50/50 with acetone.

jim

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Apr 17 14:24:36 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:24:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com><6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net><008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com><6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net><00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com><6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <E9B74C89D7EF4455A1A640679A308B40@EntCent>

Do you see any aluminum smearing on the cylinder walls below the pistons?
If not, I suggest the following:

What I have done in the past is, with the head off and the rods separated
from and clear of the crank, soak the tops of the pistons with the solvent
of your choice.  I prefer Kroil, covered, so it does not evaporate.  Let
this sit for a week or so, and then try tapping them down with a piece of
wood.  Try to cover the entire top of the piston with the wood and gently,
but persistently tap it downward.  Do not try to twist the pistons, as the
bore and piston may be egged slightly.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of BJNoSHOV8
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:03 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?

I've got an engine that's frozen (stuck).  My theory is that they ran it 
without oil.  The bearings don't look bad but the small ends of the rods 
look like they got hot.  I need to get the pistons knocked out.

With the engine in the car I pulled the head off and soaked the tops of 
the pistons in PB Blaster, but it didn't seem to help.   but then that 
is trying to rotate all 4 pistons at one time.  I pulled the engine out, 
pulled off the pan, and tried to knock the pistons out one at a time.  I 
couldn't get them to move.

I've finally decided that the PB Blaster might go beside the pistons but 
maybe it couldn't get by the rings.  So I can try soaking the pistons 
from the bottom.  Someone told me to soak the cylinders in diesel.  I'm 
wondering if there is anything that would be better, such as ATF (I've 
got some extra ATF).  I can set the engine upside down and fill the 
bottom half of the cylinder and let it set for awhile.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Apr 17 14:42:42 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:42:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4DAB50C2.2070504@comcast.net>

I'm not sure any penetrant will solve the problem--since your rings may well be partially welded to the cylinders--but FWIW:

http://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=10&Number=215167&Searchpage=3&Main=30233&Words=kstuck+engine+kroil&topic=0&Search=true

-- or --

*http://tinyurl.com/66z7ff5*


Bob


On 4/17/2011 1:02 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:
> I've got an engine that's frozen (stuck).  My theory is that they ran it without oil.  The bearings don't look bad but 
> the small ends of the rods look like they got hot.  I need to get the pistons knocked out.
>
> With the engine in the car I pulled the head off and soaked the tops of the pistons in PB Blaster, but it didn't seem 
> to help.   but then that is trying to rotate all 4 pistons at one time.  I pulled the engine out, pulled off the pan, 
> and tried to knock the pistons out one at a time.  I couldn't get them to move.
>
> I've finally decided that the PB Blaster might go beside the pistons but maybe it couldn't get by the rings.  So I can 
> try soaking the pistons from the bottom.  Someone told me to soak the cylinders in diesel.  I'm wondering if there is 
> anything that would be better, such as ATF (I've got some extra ATF).  I can set the engine upside down and fill the 
> bottom half of the cylinder and let it set for awhile.
> _______________________________________________
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From 57healey at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 15:15:54 2011
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:15:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2986897571446241509@unknownmsgid>

try 50/50 Acetone and ATF, google that combo, there are tests that show it
to beat PB Blaster and Kroil



On Apr 17, 2011, at 3:10 PM, BJNoSHOV8 <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:

I've finally decided that the PB Blaster might go beside the pistons but
maybe it couldn't get by the rings.  So I can try soaking the pistons from
the bottom.  Someone told me to soak the cylinders in diesel.  I'm wondering
if there is anything that would be better, such as ATF (I've got some extra
ATF).

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Apr 17 15:48:36 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:48:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <2986897571446241509@unknownmsgid>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com> <2986897571446241509@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <4DAB6034.6070408@comcast.net>

Except apparently acetone and ATF aren't miscible (which basically means there's no advantage to mixing them as opposed 
to using them separately):

http://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/760035/Austin_Healey_100_6_Stuck_moto#Post760035



On 4/17/2011 2:15 PM, Patton Dickson wrote:
> try 50/50 Acetone and ATF, google that combo, there are tests that show it
> to beat PB Blaster and Kroil
>
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2011, at 3:10 PM, BJNoSHOV8<bjshov8 at tx.rr.com>  wrote:
>
> I've finally decided that the PB Blaster might go beside the pistons but
> maybe it couldn't get by the rings.  So I can try soaking the pistons from
> the bottom.  Someone told me to soak the cylinders in diesel.  I'm wondering
> if there is anything that would be better, such as ATF (I've got some extra
> ATF).
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Apr 17 16:57:17 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:57:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110417184838.04c504f8@cox.net>

At 04:02 PM 4/17/2011, BJNoSHOV8 wrote:

 >I've got an engine that's frozen (stuck).  My theory is that they 
ran it without oil.  The
 >bearings don't look bad but the small ends of the rods look like 
they got hot.  I need to get
 >the pistons knocked out.

The one thing that really hasn't been stressed is patience.  My 65 
Morgan sits in a garage with my dad's 2
street cars and his '48 Triumph TR-1800.  A couple of years ago, I 
went over to pull the plugs in the 2
antiques, and put some oil in the cyl. to keep them from 
seizing.  Well the TR was fine, but the Morgan
had had the engine freeze already.

So we started squirting PB-blast and oil in the cylinders and tried 
to rock the car with it in 3rd gear.  We'd
rock it for a couple of minutes several times a day for about a 
week.  Then we tried more PB-Blast and
Marvel's mystery oil.   And again rocked the car several times a day 
for the next week.  When that didn't
work, we pulled the head so we could see the pistons.  We now tried 
pouring some lacquer thinner, them
some Marvel's, PB-blast and oil, in each of the cylinders and rocking 
the car several times a day for several
days.  We were just about to give up when all of a sudden the pistons 
started to move.  We were then able
to turn the engine over with a socket on the crankshaft bolt.  After 
turning it over several times, and putting
some oil in the cylinders and turning the engine over again, we put a 
new head gasket on and torqued
everything down.  She fired right up no problem.

Good luck, just take your time.  If you do try tapping the pistons do 
it gently.  Don't come down real hard
with the hammer like you're trying to drive a nail home in 1 hit..


John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Apr 17 18:05:20 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:05:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110417184838.04c504f8@cox.net>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417184838.04c504f8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4DAB8040.1050109@tx.rr.com>

When I get time to mess with it again I may try the ATF/Acetone, that 
would be pretty easy to do.

When the engine was in the car I tried rotating the engine  I ended up 
putting it in high gear and putting a large pipe wrench on the 
driveshaft.  I put nearly 200ft-pounds on it and nothing moved.  This 
little engine won't develop nearly that much torque when running at full 
throttle.

I pulled the head off to investigate.  I PB'd the cylinders numerous 
times, let it set, and tried hitting the tops of the pistons with a 
block of wood and a small sledge hammer.  I pulled the engine out, 
pulled the pan, pulled a rod cap off and tried to knock that piston 
out.  I was being a little easy on it this time not wanting to damage 
the pistons from the bottom, but couldn't get any movement.  I'm not 
sure the pistons can be reused anyway.

> Good luck, just take your time.  If you do try tapping the pistons do 
> it gently.  Don't come down real hard
> with the hammer like you're trying to drive a nail home in 1 hit..

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 20:35:56 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 22:35:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=-BecS80VGFr6ymB2afau9AcXJig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA8ACAA.6000808@gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=-BecS80VGFr6ymB2afau9AcXJig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DABA38C.70406@gmail.com>

About to tile the bathroom.  House is on a slab.  Existing slab is not 
level.  I've purchased self-leveler that requires the slab be prepared 
to CSP 3 (ICRI).

Googling turns up a lot of instructions for other stuff that wants the 
same level of prep. to install...but no detail as to what CSP 3 (ICRI) 
actually is.

The slab had vinyl on it.  It's removed.  Any idea what I need to do to 
it now to get the leveler to stick?  I'll be doing the same thing to the 
garage bathroom after I'm done with this one.

Thanks.

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Apr 18 06:34:49 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:34:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Center Console dash replacement (sorta OT)
Message-ID: <OFC43471FB.F3AB96C9-ON85257876.0045BEBC-85257876.00464E21@mail.megageek.com>

OK, this is a project currently in my shop, so it's sort of on topic.

I am repairing a center console for a Boston Whaler boat.  The fiberglass 
center console has an adhesive textured sticker on it for the surface.

See the pictures here...

<http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/a7ffeab012bbfb5b85256eb1007ca7f6/32fdad48cc306f718525787600445bb0?OpenDocument>

It's the black covering in the pics.

Does anyone know of a source of this material?  If not, what it might be 
called as I have been Googling everything I can think of but can't find 
any.

I only need a piece the size of the top of the console.

I'm guessing this stuff needs to be tough to withstand salt, sun, and the 
elements.

Any ideas, or points in the right direction will be greatly appreciated!


Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From racertod at racertodd.com  Mon Apr 18 20:26:48 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:26:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <4DABA38C.70406@gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=-BecS80VGFr6ymB2afau9AcXJig@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA8ACAA.6000808@gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=-BecS80VGFr6ymB2afau9AcXJig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110418192137.00bd7078@mail.avvanta.com>

Scott wrote:

>Googling turns up a lot of instructions for other stuff that wants the 
>same level of prep. to install...but no detail as to what CSP 3 (ICRI) 
>actually is.

         ICRI is Int'l Concrete Repair Institute (www.icri.org).  I found 
this page with photos, that calls CSP 3 a "light shotblast"
http://www.shotblastinc.com/shotblasting_guidelines.shtml


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 272,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       280,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 20:28:18 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 22:28:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <4DABA38C.70406@gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA8ACAA.6000808@gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=-BecS80VGFr6ymB2afau9AcXJig@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DABA38C.70406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik3X5kVaNMegDyW3fpNCD0JNB9HgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Scott Hall
<scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> About to tile the bathroom. B House is on a slab. B Existing slab is not
> level. B I've purchased self-leveler that requires the slab be prepared to
> CSP 3 (ICRI).
>
> Googling turns up a lot of instructions for other stuff that wants the same
> level of prep. to install...but no detail as to what CSP 3 (ICRI) actually
> is.
>
> The slab had vinyl on it. B It's removed. B Any idea what I need to do to
it
> now to get the leveler to stick? B I'll be doing the same thing to the
garage
> bathroom after I'm done with this one.

ICRI is the "international concrete repair institute", a trade group.
They've got standards on surface roughness ("concrete surface
profile").  Higher the number the rougher the surface.  I know
grinding typically results in CSP 2, but I don't know what the others
look like.

Can you ask your supplier or manufacturer about it?

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Mon Apr 18 20:38:40 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 21:38:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <4DABA38C.70406@gmail.com>
References: <4DA89783.6040607@xxiii.com>
	<BANLkTi=UdBgmBwOEGmFbZmg2Xy4Xis6HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DA8ACAA.6000808@gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=-BecS80VGFr6ymB2afau9AcXJig@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DABA38C.70406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DACF5B0.9070107@tx.rr.com>

This document might give you some insight.  The idea is to remove 
anything that would prevent bond with the concrete, and roughen the 
concrete slightly.  There are many things that can happen to concrete 
during construction and use that would put stuff in its surface and make 
it difficult to bond with.  Curing compounds, waterproof coatings, 
grease, oil, tile adhesive, etc., can all make it difficult to bond 
with.  In addition sometimes the concrete surface will be very smooth 
and this also makes bonding difficult.  Cleaning and roughening will go 
a long way towards improving bond with new cement-based products.

http://www.generalpolymers.com/tech_lib/conc_surf_prep.pdf

We specify a lot of products of this type on our construction projects 
but we don't install them so I don't have any immediate experience with 
installation and how much of this preparation is really needed.

BTW:
ICRI is International Concrete Repair Institute
CSP is Concrete Surface Profile
You could of course buy the actual 03732 document from ICRI but it is $28.


> About to tile the bathroom.  House is on a slab.  Existing slab is not 
> level.  I've purchased self-leveler that requires the slab be prepared 
> to CSP 3 (ICRI).
>
> Googling turns up a lot of instructions for other stuff that wants the 
> same level of prep. to install...but no detail as to what CSP 3 (ICRI) 
> actually is.
>
> The slab had vinyl on it.  It's removed.  Any idea what I need to do 
> to it now to get the leveler to stick?  I'll be doing the same thing 
> to the garage bathroom after I'm done with this one.
>
> Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3582 - Release Date: 04/18/11 09:22:00

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 20:40:19 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 22:40:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Center Console dash replacement (sorta OT)
In-Reply-To: <OFC43471FB.F3AB96C9-ON85257876.0045BEBC-85257876.00464E21@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC43471FB.F3AB96C9-ON85257876.0045BEBC-85257876.00464E21@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=b=buJF7HrtGBU2pSYkoT6KNUUEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 8:34 AM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> OK, this is a project currently in my shop, so it's sort of on topic.
>
> I am repairing a center console for a Boston Whaler boat. B The fiberglass
> center console has an adhesive textured sticker on it for the surface.
>
> See the pictures here...
>
>
<http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/a7ffeab012bbfb5b85256eb1007ca7f6/
32fdad48cc306f718525787600445bb0?OpenDocument>
>
> It's the black covering in the pics.
>
> Does anyone know of a source of this material? B If not, what it might be
> called as I have been Googling everything I can think of but can't find
> any.
>
> I only need a piece the size of the top of the console.
>
> I'm guessing this stuff needs to be tough to withstand salt, sun, and the
> elements.
>
> Any ideas, or points in the right direction will be greatly appreciated!


Non skid is normally  molded into the top coat of the fiberglass.
I can't tell from your pictures if that's what's going on or not.  If
you want to match what you've got exactly, you can take a mold in
silicone.   a company called gibco makes flexible molds in a number of
patterns
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Apr 19 12:13:26 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:13:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] how to loosen stuck pistons?
In-Reply-To: <4DAB8040.1050109@tx.rr.com>
References: <006801cbfc49$d8e17ee0$8aa47ca0$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416120300.04e0bb20@cox.net>
	<008401cbfc56$4dcc9030$e965b090$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110416155842.04c579f0@cox.net>
	<00a501cbfc99$21bb7400$65325c00$@cablespeed.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417093246.04b760c8@cox.net>
	<4DAB475E.5030106@tx.rr.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110417184838.04c504f8@cox.net>
	<4DAB8040.1050109@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <088101cbfebd$7bebb4f0$73c31ed0$@rr.com>

> I'm not
> sure the pistons can be reused anyway.

Which was my initial thought when you said it had been run out of oil, and
all 4 cylinders were stuck.  At some point you're probably going to have to
give up on the pistons, and concentrate on trying to break them out without
damaging the rods or cylinder walls (beyond being able to bore them
oversize).

One thing that has worked for me before is to find a piece of steel that
will fit over the crown of the piston and rest on it near the cylinder
walls. (ISTR I used a big iron pipe cap).  Then hit that as hard as you can
(5 lb BFH).  The idea is to get over the strongest part of the piston, and
get the maximum impact into the skirt.  If you just hit in the relatively
thin center of the piston, it will absorb much of the impact (and break much
easier as well).  Once you've managed to drive the piston down, clean up the
exposed cylinder wall, and drive it back up.

-- Randall 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Apr 19 19:06:36 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:06:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] is Sean Maroney still around
Message-ID: <DD5C9CF2F4E14B56BA095BAC41597637@john5043a2d406>

need some GM TECH help from Sean... but his email address bounced...

hey Sean ??? where u b

john






I've learned in life that my primary goal
 is to serve as a bad example

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Apr 20 09:30:59 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:30:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] reduced engine power
Message-ID: <8F8154F25F494BF9B1BECBF3A860448E@OwnerPC>

My 2003 Tahoe takes me to the shop when I am away from it (shop content).
Road trip down I-65 this weekend and three times my check engine light comes
on... dash display says "reduced engine power" and it drops to 4 cylinders...
coasted to shoulder, turned it off...sit a minute and restarted ...all ok...

diagnostic code on return shows P1516...  google found some info on a broken
wire (inside the insulation) on the Throttle Body   or a bad crimp on the TB
wiring connections...

any one else ever have this problem..

on several occasions in the past I've had this same problem (check engine
light and reduced power) when first starting (either cold or hot) and it went
away with a restart...  related ??

ideas ??


thanks
John

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 11:48:38 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:48:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] reduced engine power
In-Reply-To: <8F8154F25F494BF9B1BECBF3A860448E@OwnerPC>
References: <8F8154F25F494BF9B1BECBF3A860448E@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik=fqJzrMagTH8XMa5Sbg8ZLsBXMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:30 AM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
> My 2003 Tahoe takes me to the shop when I am away from it (shop content).
> Road trip down I-65 this weekend and three times my check engine light
comes
> on... dash display says "reduced engine power" and it drops to 4
cylinders...
> coasted to shoulder, turned it off...sit a minute and restarted ...all
ok...
>
> diagnostic code on return shows P1516... B google found some info on a
broken
> wire (inside the insulation) on the Throttle Body B  or a bad crimp on the
TB
> wiring connections...
>
> any one else ever have this problem..
>
> on several occasions in the past I've had this same problem (check engine
> light and reduced power) when first starting (either cold or hot) and it
went
> away with a restart... B related ??
>

P1516 is a GM specific code (the P means "powertrain", the 1 means
manufacturer specifc, 5 means vehicle speed, throttle, and idle
control).  This particular code means the throttle acuator control --
which is the thing that actually moves the blade in the throttle body
-- doesn't know what the position is, or the position isn't what it
should be.  There was a TSB about the wiring being defective (which is
probably what you found).  Other causes are the sensor at the gas
pedal is wrong, the throttle body is stuck or otherwise not moving
right (there's a motor), or the throttle position sensors are screwy.

If I remember right, there are a bunch of different reduced power
modes available.  One forces the engine to shut off, which isn't
what's happened.  The others force idle only, reduce acceleration
(limits the rate at which revs can increase), or limit the max
throttle opening.

You can inspect the wiring, and check that your throttle body isn't
stuck or covered in carbon.  After that, you'll need diagnostic
equipment.  There are a pair of throttle positioning sensors in the
throttle body that you can check produce the right signals as the
throttle is positioned, and the sensor at the accelerator pedal (Oh,
probably not your problem, but don't touch the gas pedal when
starting.  It doesn't do any good, but one of the things the computer
learns is closed throttle position.  If it isn't closed, it's
unhappy.) ditto.  A scan tool can tell you the values reported, you
can also check them with a 'scope, but I have no idea what they're
supposed to be.


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Apr 22 10:46:26 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:46:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
Message-ID: <OFF4D7D134.FE5273E5-ON8525787A.005D0688-8525787A.005D6F26@mail.megageek.com>

Today I woke up to one of the scariest situations a homeowner can face, an 
empty oil tank.

The reason it's scary is that the should still have been about 600gals of 
oil in there.

My, my usage has increased, but I don't know if it increased 600 gals or 
not.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any advice about new oil tanks. 
Should I go inside or outside?  What are the pros and cons?

>From what I can see, capacity max seems to be about the same (660gals with 
2X330gal tanks.)

Inside the house they can't freeze, and you don't see them, but it seems 
that a house fire would make all that extra fuel that much worst.

Outside, the tanks can freeze, and they are an eyesore, but it seems safer 
overall.

Anything I'm missing?  Anything else to consider?  Thanks.

OB Shop Content-  My oil burner also heats my shop!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Apr 22 11:20:17 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:20:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <OFF4D7D134.FE5273E5-ON8525787A.005D0688-8525787A.005D6F26@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF4D7D134.FE5273E5-ON8525787A.005D0688-8525787A.005D6F26@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <A7D42952-9F30-4E26-B4AF-06EC1A660E85@groupwbench.org>

On Apr 22, 2011, at 12:46 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
>
> Anything I'm missing?  Anything else to consider?  Thanks.

Saving your shekels to pay for the soil cleanup. The bills are high. :-(

For me it's all about space. I don't care about looks, and in a fire, if it's
hot enough to set the tank aflame, everything else is already gone. And looks?
Eh. DOn't care.

Freezing?  You could put some diesel conditioner or somesuch in there every
tankful, but I've never heard of it being an issue.

WHen I get an oil delivery, the house smells of oil for a day, but I think I
had a leaky vent tank whistle thing.

From tvacc at lotusowners.com  Fri Apr 22 11:38:26 2011
From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:38:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <2B978B3BF21D43A198C0261C2AE82FBD@amicroinc.local>
References: <2B978B3BF21D43A198C0261C2AE82FBD@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <88B43D01BC49463084EC0EDDAF1FBBCF@amicroinc.local>

I don't mean to alarm you, but did not read the story about John Fitch

http://www.cwnicholls.net/fitch/fitch.html


Tony Vaccaro

LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
www.lotusowners.com
716-861-1412

This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data
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you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately
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-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:25 PM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank

Today I woke up to one of the scariest situations a homeowner can face, an 
empty oil tank.

The reason it's scary is that the should still have been about 600gals of 
oil in there.

My, my usage has increased, but I don't know if it increased 600 gals or 
not.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any advice about new oil tanks. 
Should I go inside or outside?  What are the pros and cons?

>From what I can see, capacity max seems to be about the same (660gals with 
2X330gal tanks.)

Inside the house they can't freeze, and you don't see them, but it seems 
that a house fire would make all that extra fuel that much worst.

Outside, the tanks can freeze, and they are an eyesore, but it seems safer 
overall.

Anything I'm missing?  Anything else to consider?  Thanks.

OB Shop Content-  My oil burner also heats my shop!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From rkg at teleport.com  Fri Apr 22 11:52:41 2011
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:52:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <OFF4D7D134.FE5273E5-ON8525787A.005D0688-8525787A.005D6F26@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF4D7D134.FE5273E5-ON8525787A.005D0688-8525787A.005D6F26@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4DB1C069.9080107@teleport.com>

DOH!!!

If this is an inground tank and the consumption is off that much, 
chances are you've got a leaker.  Been There, Done That (and eventually 
got the NFA
from the state).  They're all ticking time bombs - anybody with an 
inground tank would be well advised to consider
getting it decommissioned (or doing it yourself if you're up to it - Its 
actually pretty straightforward if it hasn't leaked yet).

I wouldn't put another drop of oil in it until you've figured out if 
this is what's going on or not.  Its incredibly expensive to clean up,
and anymore your house is basically unsaleable until it is resolved.

It doesn't get terribly cold around here (what, maybe 15f or so worst 
case), so we just had an above ground tank brought in when ours died.
The advantage is that its not that much trouble, and you can keep an eye 
on it.  Can't comment on putting the tank(s) indoors - my parent's
house had one of these (until they ripped out the oil furnace and 
replaced it withnatural gas).  You might consider this as an alternative 
if you've got
it available, FWIW - its doubtful they'll ever figure out how to run 
cars on it (too dangerous for the general public to refuel), and the US 
is going
to be awash in gas for the forseeable future (if the fracking issues are 
ever resolved).

Good Luck,

rkg
(Richard George)





On 4/22/2011 9:46 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Today I woke up to one of the scariest situations a homeowner can face, an
> empty oil tank.
>
> The reason it's scary is that the should still have been about 600gals of
> oil in there.
>
> My, my usage has increased, but I don't know if it increased 600 gals or
> not.
>
> Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any advice about new oil tanks.
> Should I go inside or outside?  What are the pros and cons?
>
> > From what I can see, capacity max seems to be about the same (660gals with
> 2X330gal tanks.)
>
> Inside the house they can't freeze, and you don't see them, but it seems
> that a house fire would make all that extra fuel that much worst.
>
> Outside, the tanks can freeze, and they are an eyesore, but it seems safer
> overall.
>
> Anything I'm missing?  Anything else to consider?  Thanks.
>
> OB Shop Content-  My oil burner also heats my shop!
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rkg at teleport.com

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 22 11:57:02 2011
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:57:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <OFF4D7D134.FE5273E5-ON8525787A.005D0688-8525787A.005D6F26@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF4D7D134.FE5273E5-ON8525787A.005D0688-8525787A.005D6F26@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W625DF9D7F7860BAE4DAF379A950@phx.gbl>

I had a new tank installed in my basement last summer.  The old ones legs were
rusting... and it was never noticed until it was almost too late.  BTW, if you
have an older tank, check your legs, especially if the guy that services your
tank has bad knees and doesn't like to crouch down with a damn flashlight and
do his effin job...  :-/   I'm serious.

The new one cost about $2k for the old tank removal, new tank, and
installation.  Happy with it so far.  Used to get a smell when it was filled
before, now I don't notice anything.  It had to be a bit slimmer b/c of how
tight my basement access was, but I probably have about 50 gals less capacity,
I hardly notice..

For me reasons I wouldn't go with the outside tank:
- price was hardly different (bit more for the indoor tank)
- major eyesore
- risk of damage from weather/rust, tree limbs falling, lightning??
- temp. fluctuations from daytime sunlight, nightime chill, resulting
condensation in the tank leading to more rust, leading to more no-starts ( I
think the guy that quoted me on my new tank mentioned this, and iirc they do
offer fiberglas tanks -> $$$ )
- eyesore
- easier to monitor oil levels in the dead of winter
- resale value of house
- in the case of a leak the oil would be contained in the house depending on
how much though the smell would be too great to live there during cleanup.
Vs. groundwater contamination if the tank was outdoor  (this is all my
speculation)
- increased insurance costs???
- eyesore


ehh... yeah seemed pretty obvious to me.

-PJ

> To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> From: eric at megageek.com
> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:46:26 -0400
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
>
> Today I woke up to one of the scariest situations a homeowner can face, an
> empty oil tank.
>
> The reason it's scary is that the should still have been about 600gals of
> oil in there.
>
> My, my usage has increased, but I don't know if it increased 600 gals or
> not.
>
> Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any advice about new oil tanks.
> Should I go inside or outside?  What are the pros and cons?
>
> >From what I can see, capacity max seems to be about the same (660gals with
> 2X330gal tanks.)
>
> Inside the house they can't freeze, and you don't see them, but it seems
> that a house fire would make all that extra fuel that much worst.
>
> Outside, the tanks can freeze, and they are an eyesore, but it seems safer
> overall.
>
> Anything I'm missing?  Anything else to consider?  Thanks.
>
> OB Shop Content-  My oil burner also heats my shop!
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Apr 22 11:55:56 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:55:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <88B43D01BC49463084EC0EDDAF1FBBCF@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <OF5D57B3FD.CDD5A3E0-ON8525787A.0063AAF8-8525787A.0063CC67@mail.megageek.com>

Thanks for the heads up.  I know that this thing can be a big problem.  I 
do have a separate policy on teh oil tank in case of a leak, so I'm not to 
worried about going bankrupt (but it is a concern.)

I'm more worried about getting through all the red tape so I can have this 
thing finished before next winter. 

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




"Tony Vaccaro" <tvacc at lotusowners.com> 
04/22/2011 13:37

To
<eric at megageek.com>, <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
cc

Subject
RE: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank






I don't mean to alarm you, but did not read the story about John Fitch

http://www.cwnicholls.net/fitch/fitch.html


Tony Vaccaro

LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
www.lotusowners.com
716-861-1412

This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data
or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted 
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attachments.


-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:25 PM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank

Today I woke up to one of the scariest situations a homeowner can face, an 

empty oil tank.

The reason it's scary is that the should still have been about 600gals of 
oil in there.

My, my usage has increased, but I don't know if it increased 600 gals or 
not.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any advice about new oil tanks. 
Should I go inside or outside?  What are the pros and cons?

>From what I can see, capacity max seems to be about the same (660gals 
with 
2X330gal tanks.)

Inside the house they can't freeze, and you don't see them, but it seems 
that a house fire would make all that extra fuel that much worst.

Outside, the tanks can freeze, and they are an eyesore, but it seems safer 

overall.

Anything I'm missing?  Anything else to consider?  Thanks.

OB Shop Content-  My oil burner also heats my shop!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com




 

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From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Apr 22 12:36:25 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:36:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
Message-ID: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>

  As long as we are off topic the last few days...

  I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I 
have to split it.  I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.

  When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry 
but the tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it 
will dry faster (that makes sense).

  Shop content - I will use the split wood in my wood burning pizza oven 
to make pizza's to eat in the shop

     mike

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Apr 22 12:45:49 2011
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:45:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <4D48A501-020C-4243-8D89-D130A0BEB39D@groupwbench.org>

On Apr 22, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:

> As long as we are off topic the last few days...
>
> I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I have to
split it.  I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdXzaGFkWfU

>
> When do you split wood ?

When you can rent one of those :-)

From brabel at comcast.net  Fri Apr 22 12:54:31 2011
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:54:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <5AE35AEB-2B4E-45FC-8AAA-72C3F1CCF6C8@comcast.net>

Please post location and hours of operation. Yum. ;-)

- Bill Rabel
 Anacortes



On Apr 22, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:

> Shop content - I will use the split wood in my wood burning pizza oven to
make pizza's to eat in the shop

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Fri Apr 22 13:14:33 2011
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:14:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <4DB1C069.9080107@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <20110422191433.0EP56.4474.root@cdptpa-web22-z01>

The fracking politicians and fracking news media will keep the fracking issue stirred up until fracking natural gas prices get too fracking high.  But I grew up in oil country and they've been fracking for an awful long time without any problems until somebody decided to try to get rich from the drilling companies.

Also back in those days my dad ran his SHOP (there, it's on topic) pickup on butane.  And of course lots of vehicles run on LNG.  And our farmer friends in west Texas run their big diesel engines for their water pumps on standard natural gas.  (All I know is that they modify the heads and add spark plugs.)



> replaced it with natural gas).  You might consider this as an alternative 
> if you've got
> it available, FWIW - its doubtful they'll ever figure out how to run 
> cars on it (too dangerous for the general public to refuel), and the US 
> is going
> to be awash in gas for the forseeable future (if the fracking issues are 
> ever resolved).

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 13:20:32 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:20:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <20110422191433.0EP56.4474.root@cdptpa-web22-z01>
References: <4DB1C069.9080107@teleport.com>
	<20110422191433.0EP56.4474.root@cdptpa-web22-z01>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinMfGA_8CXxPkMbjKRzRud_-Zt-8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 3:14 PM,  <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:
> The fracking politicians and fracking news media will keep the fracking
issue stirred up until fracking natural gas prices get too fracking high.
B But I grew up in oil country and they've been fracking for an awful long
time without any problems until somebody decided to try to get rich from the
drilling companies.

Please keep politics off this list.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 13:26:01 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:26:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimwcw8Qnwn4ijCPsV9VYmKpuWB=PA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Mike Rambour <mikey at b2systems.com> wrote:
> B As long as we are off topic the last few days...
>
> B I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I have
to
> split it. B I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.
>
> B When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry but
the
> tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it will dry
> faster (that makes sense).

It's usually a bit easier to split when it's dry, but you can split
whenever you want.  If you're using a hydraulic splitter, it won't
matter.  On the other hand, wood splitting builds upper body strength
like you wouldn't believe.




--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Apr 22 13:36:21 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:36:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimwcw8Qnwn4ijCPsV9VYmKpuWB=PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTimwcw8Qnwn4ijCPsV9VYmKpuWB=PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DB1D8B5.3090200@b2systems.com>

  Well I do intend to try and hand split it but I am old and a computer 
geek for a living, I might not be up to the  task anymore.

The plan is try but make sure i have a rental ready to go :)

     mike

n 04/22/2011 12:26 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Mike Rambour<mikey at b2systems.com>  wrote:
>    
>>   As long as we are off topic the last few days...
>>
>>   I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I have to
>> split it.  I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.
>>
>>   When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry but the
>> tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it will dry
>> faster (that makes sense).
>>      
> It's usually a bit easier to split when it's dry, but you can split
> whenever you want.  If you're using a hydraulic splitter, it won't
> matter.  On the other hand, wood splitting builds upper body strength
> like you wouldn't believe.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 13:44:25 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:44:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1D8B5.3090200@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTimwcw8Qnwn4ijCPsV9VYmKpuWB=PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DB1D8B5.3090200@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinU3uafk4QzfmaiD4Kpumv3ughRjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Mike Rambour <mikey at b2systems.com> wrote:
>
> B Well I do intend to try and hand split it but I am old and a computer
geek
> for a living, I might not be up to the B task anymore.
>
> The plan is try but make sure i have a rental ready to go :)
>

I actually hydraulic splitters more of a pain to use than doing it by
hand, except for large stuff.  (And I suspect our versions of 'large'
are seriously divergent: this isn't particularly large:
http://www.panix.com/~dscheidt/red_oak.jpg )  You still have to pick
things up, which is more work than splitting them



> B  B mike
>
> n 04/22/2011 12:26 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Mike Rambour<mikey at b2systems.com>
B wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> B As long as we are off topic the last few days...
>>>
>>> B I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I have
>>> to
>>> split it. B I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.
>>>
>>> B When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry but
>>> the
>>> tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it will dry
>>> faster (that makes sense).
>>>
>>
>> It's usually a bit easier to split when it's dry, but you can split
>> whenever you want. B If you're using a hydraulic splitter, it won't
>> matter. B On the other hand, wood splitting builds upper body strength
>> like you wouldn't believe.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From drew at DasRogges.com  Fri Apr 22 13:47:54 2011
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:47:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1D8B5.3090200@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTimwcw8Qnwn4ijCPsV9VYmKpuWB=PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DB1D8B5.3090200@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <4DB1DB6A.2050102@DasRogges.com>

My father-in-law claims that oak splits best when it's green and the old
boy has done a lot of splitting. He grew up in the back woods of Arkansas
in the '30s and they burned oak for cooking and heat. He also points out
that by the time you wrestle the round up on to the splitter you've done
almost as much work as splitting the wood yourself. I to am a longtime
professional geek and I can do about three rounds before taking a rest.
Not proud of the fact but it does feel nice when I'm done.

Drew

On 04/22/2011 12:36 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:
> Well I do intend to try and hand split it but I am old and a computer
> geek for a living, I might not be up to the task anymore.
>
> The plan is try but make sure i have a rental ready to go :)
>
> mike

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Apr 22 14:57:30 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:57:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <OF0265F6D8.014FD9B3-ON8525787A.00741B00-8525787A.00746B9C@mail.megageek.com>

Finally, a topic I can offer some advice on.  8>)

I personally find it just as easy to split wood with an ax then with a 
splitter.  Better workout as well.

You are suppose to split when green to let the wood dry out. 

If you are close to NJ and you have a 3pt hitch, you are more than welcome 
to borrow my wood splitter if you aren't up to the chore of ax splitting.

FWIW, I can split wood as fast with an ax then with a splitter.  But there 
are new ones now that split in both directions that would cut the time in 
half!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Mike Rambour <mikey at b2systems.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
04/22/2011 14:24

To
shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting






  As long as we are off topic the last few days...

  I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I 
have to split it.  I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.

  When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry 
but the tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it 
will dry faster (that makes sense).

  Shop content - I will use the split wood in my wood burning pizza oven 
to make pizza's to eat in the shop

     mike
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Apr 22 15:11:00 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:11:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1DB6A.2050102@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <OF019C287E.AB1A7554-ON8525787A.00757E33-8525787A.0075A828@mail.megageek.com>

Two votes for "picking up the wood is most of the work."  This is the time 
to find young kids (that are old enough to know when to stay away as you 
split) but can pick up the split pieces and stack them.

One trick for hand splitting, place a few pieces in an old tire and you 
can swing a bunch of times without having to pick it up after each swing.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Drew Rogge <drew at DasRogges.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
04/22/2011 15:39

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting






My father-in-law claims that oak splits best when it's green and the old
boy has done a lot of splitting. He grew up in the back woods of Arkansas
in the '30s and they burned oak for cooking and heat. He also points out
that by the time you wrestle the round up on to the splitter you've done
almost as much work as splitting the wood yourself. I to am a longtime
professional geek and I can do about three rounds before taking a rest.
Not proud of the fact but it does feel nice when I'm done.

Drew

On 04/22/2011 12:36 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:
> Well I do intend to try and hand split it but I am old and a computer
> geek for a living, I might not be up to the task anymore.
>
> The plan is try but make sure i have a rental ready to go :)
>
> mike
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Apr 22 15:42:20 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
Message-ID: <4892780f.16a125.12f7f29dc54.Webtop.41@charter.net>

Is any of the tree millable? Can it be used for anything other than fire 
wood? I hate to see good hard wood used for only firewood if any of it 
can be used for cabinets, etc.





On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:

> As long as we are off topic the last few days...
>
>  I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I 
> have to split it.  I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.
>
>  When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry 
> but the tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it 
> will dry faster (that makes sense).
>
>  Shop content - I will use the split wood in my wood burning pizza 
> oven to make pizza's to eat in the shop
>
>     mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Apr 22 15:43:52 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:43:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1DB6A.2050102@DasRogges.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTimwcw8Qnwn4ijCPsV9VYmKpuWB=PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DB1D8B5.3090200@b2systems.com> <4DB1DB6A.2050102@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <0LK200DE4PPTHN70@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Some splitters switch between horizontal and vertical.  It seems that 
in the vertical position less lifting is required, which would be a 
plus with big pieces.  I don't know if the rental units can do that.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 03:47 PM 4/22/2011, you wrote:
>He also points out
>that by the time you wrestle the round up on to the splitter you've done
>almost as much work as splitting the wood yourself.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Apr 22 15:57:20 2011
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:57:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <OF5D57B3FD.CDD5A3E0-ON8525787A.0063AAF8-8525787A.0063CC67@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <88B43D01BC49463084EC0EDDAF1FBBCF@amicroinc.local>
	<OF5D57B3FD.CDD5A3E0-ON8525787A.0063AAF8-8525787A.0063CC67@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20110422175403.04d99778@cox.net>

At 01:55 PM 4/22/2011, Moose wrote:

 >Thanks for the heads up.  I know that this thing can be a big problem.  I
 >do have a separate policy on teh oil tank in case of a leak, so I'm not to
 >worried about going bankrupt (but it is a concern.)

Moose,

I haven't seen anybody address filling in the old tank.

It's been over 25 years since I've had to deal with that 
problem.  But the house
I was in before this one, had an in ground tank.  When I was trying to buy the
house, the owner (a freind) and I filled the existing tank with sand, 
so the ground
wouldn't cave in, and then installed a new above ground tank 
basically over top
the the old one.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 15:58:13 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:58:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd:  OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=QNTDE7nxvEYX3hkL4X-MHyYzpZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
	<BANLkTi=QNTDE7nxvEYX3hkL4X-MHyYzpZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikJ7KZ+78V3iwAEUx0N12TJYqnicQ@mail.gmail.com>

*I was an equipment dealer and I remember once when a customer requested a
log-splitter demonstration.*
*We delivered a tractor mount Danuser splitter, put it in his tractor and he
showed us his wood pile.*
*It was nearly all cotonwood and he gave us a big grin.  The fibers in
cottonwood can be amazingly twisted and knotted and he know which logs would
be difficult to split!  We finally split the first couple of logs by just
biting off small areas but it wasn't pretty.  The customer bought the
machine because it did better than he imagined!*
**
*Tony*

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Apr 22 16:19:45 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:19:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
Message-ID: <3ca146ce.16a5e1.12f7f4c1d05.Webtop.41@charter.net>

This is one of the coolest tools I have ever seen. I am in awe of and 
don't care what this says about me. BRILLIANT TOOL I SAY, 
BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:

> On Apr 22, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:
>
>> As long as we are off topic the last few days...
>>
>> I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I 
>> have to
> split it.  I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdXzaGFkWfU
>
>>
>> When do you split wood ?
>
> When you can rent one of those :-)
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Apr 22 16:41:59 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:41:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <CD3965BD46624061865AEF67DB2DC8FE@EntCent>

No matter what you do, have someone (wife or kids) around to stack.  I cut
and split and my wife stacked.  We moved quite fast, definitely faster than
using a hydraulic splitter.  Those wedges move slowly. 

Tough woods like oak, and pecan are tough to split dry.  I used a good dry
film lube (spray on and let dry) on my axe/maul and it worked great on wet
wood.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mike Rambour
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:36 AM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting

  As long as we are off topic the last few days...

  I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I 
have to split it.  I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.

  When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry 
but the tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it 
will dry faster (that makes sense).

  Shop content - I will use the split wood in my wood burning pizza oven 
to make pizza's to eat in the shop

     mike
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Fri Apr 22 17:42:16 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:42:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <3ca146ce.16a5e1.12f7f4c1d05.Webtop.41@charter.net>
References: <3ca146ce.16a5e1.12f7f4c1d05.Webtop.41@charter.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1104221940280.20507@itonami.pair.com>

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Tim wrote:
> This is one of the coolest tools I have ever seen. I am in awe of and don't 
> care what this says about me. BRILLIANT TOOL I SAY, BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Didja see this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BytyCZRhaJU&feature=related

    Feels a little perverse watching these on Earth Day, though ;)

--
  David Hillman

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Apr 22 18:11:38 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:11:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
Message-ID: <2c0ef562.1e5f4.12f7fb28b39.Webtop.44@charter.net>

Of this one, I've seen similar anyway--the stripping/skinning attachment 
is new to me. These are scary as far as how quick man can strip a 
forest. At least the forest in this video is forest crop land.

Tim


On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 6:42 PM, David Hillman wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Tim wrote:
>> This is one of the coolest tools I have ever seen. I am in awe of and 
>> don't care what this says about me. BRILLIANT TOOL I SAY, 
>> BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>    Didja see this one?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BytyCZRhaJU&feature=related
>
>    Feels a little perverse watching these on Earth Day, though ;)
>
> --
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 19:54:13 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 21:54:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20110422175403.04d99778@cox.net>
References: <88B43D01BC49463084EC0EDDAF1FBBCF@amicroinc.local>
	<OF5D57B3FD.CDD5A3E0-ON8525787A.0063AAF8-8525787A.0063CC67@mail.megageek.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110422175403.04d99778@cox.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinDGR4QKFxoMcgu99QrPEnob0ejmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:57 PM, John T. Blair <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> I haven't seen anybody address filling in the old tank.
>

That's because you don't want to do that.  You won't be able to sell
the property if the oil tank isn't removed. That's true even if it was
properly, legally, and safely abandoned in place by cutting the top
off cleaning the tank and back filling.  It's almost always cheaper to
remove it, anyway, unless someone has done something silly like build
a driveway on top of it.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cavanadd at frontier.com  Fri Apr 22 20:09:56 2011
From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:09:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OFF TOPIC - wood splitting
In-Reply-To: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB1CAA9.50406@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <4DB234F4.5010701@frontier.com>

My experience splitting fir, hemlock, alder and a little maple is that 
it's always easier to split when it's green.

I've used a maul and wedges, and I have owned a splitter for at least 15 
or 20  years.  It was the best $795 I ever spent at the old Home Club 
(one of the first big box, members only stores).  It'll split 
horizontally or vertically.  I only use it vertically to bust big fir or 
hemlock rounds into quarters, then split the pieces horizontally.  I 
generally try to split it all in one place and have the tractor parked 
where I can throw the split wood in the bucket.  When it's full I take 
the tractor to the shed and stack it.  If I'm lucky, I can get the logs 
close to the shed, split it there and have my wife stack it as it comes 
off the splitter.  Goes pretty fast that way.

If you ever had to hand split a lot of gnarly old fir or hemlock that's 
full of knots you would be looking for a splitter pretty fast.

Mike Rambour wrote:
> As long as we are off topic the last few days...
>
> I just had a large oak tree cut down and I kept the wood but now I have
> to split it. I am thinking I will rent a splitter for a weekend.
>
> When do you split wood ? I always thought it was after good and dry but
> the tree guy said anytime is fine, if i split it when its green it will
> dry faster (that makes sense).
>
> Shop content - I will use the split wood in my wood burning pizza oven
> to make pizza's to eat in the shop
>
> mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Sat Apr 23 20:33:04 2011
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:33:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing an inground oil tank
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinDGR4QKFxoMcgu99QrPEnob0ejmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <88B43D01BC49463084EC0EDDAF1FBBCF@amicroinc.local>
	<OF5D57B3FD.CDD5A3E0-ON8525787A.0063AAF8-8525787A.0063CC67@mail.megageek.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20110422175403.04d99778@cox.net>
	<BANLkTinDGR4QKFxoMcgu99QrPEnob0ejmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MTAwMDA0OC5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1303612390@quikprotect>

Coincidentally, I'm in the process of buying a house in NJ that has
in-ground oil tank.  Based on my experience I would consider the following
actions:
1.  Have it inspected.  This cost me a couple hundred dollars, including a
scan for abandoned tanks on the property.  
2.  Do you have tank insurance?  Crown and other NJ oil companies offer tank
insurance (so do home insurance companies).  If you don't have it, I would
recommend getting it (you'll need an inspection first).  The insurance will
cover clean-up ($500k was the high-end that I saw).  
3.  NJ has a program to subsidize the removal of in-ground tanks:
http://www.nj.gov/dep/srp/finance/ustfund/   I'm not paying for the removal
at the house, but I believe the subsidy is close to 90% of the cost.  
4.  Consult a lawyer.  The liability and continuity of insurance for the
removal and remediation are critical. 

Good luck!
Ian

From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 21:09:08 2011
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:09:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
Message-ID: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>

After more searching, I found that Maipei's website says:

"Concrete surfaces must be mechanically profiled and
prepared by shotblasting, sandblasting, water-jetting,
scarifying, diamond-grinding or other engineeredapproved
methods (reference ICRI CSP 3 standards for
acceptable profile height)."

Which I really can't do--it's a 5' by 5' space in an occupied house--I 
can't do anything that's going to generate that much dust, to say 
nothing of removing the shot or sand, or dragging a sandblaster over my 
wife's carpet.

Ugh.  This has all the makings of going bad fast.

On 4/18/2011 10:28 PM, David Scheidt wrote:

ICRI is the "international concrete repair institute", a trade group.
They've got standards on surface roughness ("concrete surface
profile").  Higher the number the rougher the surface.  I know
grinding typically results in CSP 2, but I don't know what the others
look like.

Can you ask your supplier or manufacturer about it?

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Apr 24 01:40:33 2011
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 08:40:33 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
References: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DB3D3F1.1060405@landform.co.uk>

On 24/04/2011 04:09, Scott Hall wrote:
> After more searching, I found that Maipei's website says:
>
> "Concrete surfaces must be mechanically profiled and
> prepared by shotblasting, sandblasting, water-jetting,
> scarifying, diamond-grinding or other engineeredapproved
> methods (reference ICRI CSP 3 standards for
> acceptable profile height)."
>
Scott,

Dunno if I'm missreading this but buried in  
http://tinyurl.com/42tbr6r**is a section**on subfloor preparation. In 
"Powerfloated concrete/non-porous surfaces" it refers to use of a primer 
before self levelling compound. "Mapeprim SP/ECO Prim T (if the 
substrate is subject to residual moisture above 75% RH
apply Mapeproof ESM)". This primer is also suggested for use on terrazzo 
without scarification. That leads me to think that you may not need the 
intensive prep you've been considering.

Over the page is a section on primers and selflevelling compounds.

This is taken from the Mapei UK site but adhesion is adhesion whatever 
continent you're in...

Nick Brearley

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Apr 24 03:53:43 2011
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:53:43 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <4DB3D3F1.1060405@landform.co.uk>
References: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com> <4DB3D3F1.1060405@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4DB3F327.7030103@landform.co.uk>

On 24/04/2011 08:40, nick brearley wrote:
>
> Dunno if I'm missreading this but buried in
> http://tinyurl.com/42tbr6r**is a section**on subfloor preparation. In
Sorry about that, post picked up some unintended formatting.

Try  http://tinyurl.com/42tbr6r*

*Nick*


*

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Apr 24 06:54:25 2011
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 07:54:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
References: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01cc027e$be6840e0$3b38c2a0$@ameritech.net>

What about etching with something like muriatic (hydrochloric) acid to give
the surface some tooth ?  Phosphoric is also used for etching and cleaning
concrete.  With that and a binder, as Nick suggested, you should have good
adhesion between the old and new concrete.

Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Hall
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
<snip>
"Concrete surfaces must be mechanically profiled and prepared by
shotblasting, sandblasting, water-jetting, scarifying, diamond-grinding or
other engineeredapproved methods (reference ICRI CSP 3 standards for
acceptable profile height)."
Which I really can't do--it's a 5' by 5' space in an occupied house <snip>

From tputland at charter.net  Sun Apr 24 06:57:41 2011
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 08:57:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
Message-ID: <714ebb7b.1749c6.12f87963d99.Webtop.45@charter.net>

Would a concrete etching acid do enough for this to work?

Tim



On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:09 PM, Scott Hall wrote:

> After more searching, I found that Maipei's website says:
>
> "Concrete surfaces must be mechanically profiled and
> prepared by shotblasting, sandblasting, water-jetting,
> scarifying, diamond-grinding or other engineeredapproved
> methods (reference ICRI CSP 3 standards for
> acceptable profile height)."
>
> Which I really can't do--it's a 5' by 5' space in an occupied house--I 
> can't do anything that's going to generate that much dust, to say 
> nothing of removing the shot or sand, or dragging a sandblaster over 
> my wife's carpet.
>
> Ugh.  This has all the makings of going bad fast.
>
> On 4/18/2011 10:28 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
>
> ICRI is the "international concrete repair institute", a trade group.
> They've got standards on surface roughness ("concrete surface
> profile").  Higher the number the rougher the surface.  I know
> grinding typically results in CSP 2, but I don't know what the others
> look like.
>
> Can you ask your supplier or manufacturer about it?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 07:47:47 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 09:47:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
References: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimxQUs1dpVvsNp8WLpBFK-QvpLEiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Scott Hall
<scott.hall.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
> After more searching, I found that Maipei's website says:
>
> "Concrete surfaces must be mechanically profiled and
> prepared by shotblasting, sandblasting, water-jetting,
> scarifying, diamond-grinding or other engineeredapproved
> methods (reference ICRI CSP 3 standards for
> acceptable profile height)."
>
> Which I really can't do--it's a 5' by 5' space in an occupied house--I
can't
> do anything that's going to generate that much dust, to say nothing of
> removing the shot or sand, or dragging a sandblaster over my wife's carpet.
>
> Ugh. B This has all the makings of going bad fast.

MAPEI make a number of primers for their self-levelers.  I suspect
that at least one of them is for solving just your problem.  Call the
technical information line up and ask.  I suspect that "Primer T" is
the one you want, but I'd ask.

>
--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Apr 24 08:27:02 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 07:27:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <003c01cc027e$be6840e0$3b38c2a0$@ameritech.net>
References: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
	<003c01cc027e$be6840e0$3b38c2a0$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <2ECE0A37ABA54A20954F0D92553FA014@EntCent>

The problem with Muriatic Acid is that of off gasses and has the potential
to cause any steel objects in the area to start rusting.  If you use
Muriatic, use PPE, seal the area and ventilate extremely well.

If you just need to open up the pores of the concrete to get some bite
mechanical means would be best.  

Also, I have used a water based epoxy to bond between new and old concrete.
It worked well.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 5:54 AM
To: 'Scott Hall'; 'Shop Talk List'
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)

What about etching with something like muriatic (hydrochloric) acid to give
the surface some tooth ?  Phosphoric is also used for etching and cleaning
concrete.  With that and a binder, as Nick suggested, you should have good
adhesion between the old and new concrete.

Karl

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Hall
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
<snip>
"Concrete surfaces must be mechanically profiled and prepared by
shotblasting, sandblasting, water-jetting, scarifying, diamond-grinding or
other engineeredapproved methods (reference ICRI CSP 3 standards for
acceptable profile height)."
Which I really can't do--it's a 5' by 5' space in an occupied house <snip>
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sun Apr 24 08:28:18 2011
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:28:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] CSP 3 (ICRI) (moderately not OT)
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimxQUs1dpVvsNp8WLpBFK-QvpLEiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4DB39454.20905@gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimxQUs1dpVvsNp8WLpBFK-QvpLEiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110424142818.GA36687@sackheads.org>

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 09:47:47AM -0400, David Scheidt wrote:
> MAPEI make a number of primers for their self-levelers.  I suspect
> that at least one of them is for solving just your problem.  Call the
> technical information line up and ask.  I suspect that "Primer T" is
> the one you want, but I'd ask.

Agreed.  Definitely call MAPEI, explain the situation and ask 
their techs for advice.  I'm sure they'd much rather you pick the 
correct product and get good results (which leads to good word-of-mouth 
advertising on lists like this) than for you to choose blindly and 
get poor results.  

JM

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 26 17:38:18 2011
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Check engine light on a 2003 HD2500
Message-ID: <814080.85660.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a 2003 Chevy Silverado HD2500 Duramax dieselwith an intermittent Check
Engine light on. The code is a P0380B and refers to the glow plug feedback
circuit. I was wondering if any one out there has run in to this problem?  I
believe the problem should be with a glow plug, harness or Controller and
would 
like to narrow it down. The truck starts right up and runs great with
the check 
Engine light on.

Thanks for the help.
 
Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 17:58:56 2011
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:58:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Check engine light on a 2003 HD2500
In-Reply-To: <814080.85660.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <814080.85660.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinF-z97=iRbCGYgU3H98yAWZFCvig@mail.gmail.com>

No specific help for your truck, but I've seen a very similar problem on a
couple of different diesel Volkswagens.

In the VWs, the first step is to check the resistance of all of the glow
plugs.  The computer wants them to be within a certain tolerance.  If they
all check out, then clean up all the contacts and put high-temp electrical
grease and put it all back together.  If that doesn't solve the problem,
then the next step is to replace the glow plug harness.

Hopefully, the Chevy is similar.

Good Luck,

-Paul

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> I have a 2003 Chevy Silverado HD2500 Duramax dieselwith an intermittent
> Check
> Engine light on. The code is a P0380B and refers to the glow plug feedback
> circuit. I was wondering if any one out there has run in to this problem?
>  I
> believe the problem should be with a glow plug, harness or Controller and
> would
> like to narrow it down. The truck starts right up and runs great with
> the check
> Engine light on.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Apr 26 18:07:01 2011
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:07:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] suburban question
Message-ID: <BF9E078E9B0E40BD9C41A51CD0E8C72A@john5043a2d406>

any of you guys driving a late model Chevy Suburban... 2008-2011... any
reviews or comments... how bout gas mileage...   I'm thinking about dropping
the hammer on one...

thanks
John






I've learned in life that my primary goal
 is to serve as a bad example

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Apr 26 20:32:32 2011
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:32:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] suburban question
In-Reply-To: <BF9E078E9B0E40BD9C41A51CD0E8C72A@john5043a2d406>
References: <BF9E078E9B0E40BD9C41A51CD0E8C72A@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <0LKA005T5HQMNDH0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have a 2005 suburban, which is the previous body style, so I can't 
really help.  The biggest problem I had with the later ones is that 
the rear seats no longer fold down low enough so that you have a big, 
flat area back there.  To me, without that, it's just not a 
suburban.  Whether it's carrying 4x8 sheets of something or just 
having my dog back there, I really can't imagine losing that.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 08:07 PM 4/26/2011, John Niolon wrote:
>any of you guys driving a late model Chevy Suburban... 2008-2011... any
>reviews or comments... how bout gas mileage...   I'm thinking about dropping
>the hammer on one...

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Apr 26 21:13:58 2011
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:13:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] suburban question
In-Reply-To: <BF9E078E9B0E40BD9C41A51CD0E8C72A@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <833751697.54494.1303874038719.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I went out of my way to get one with lousy gas mileage.  I wanted the incredible grunt of the 8.1-litre.  Towing an enclosed car trailer, it seldom shifts down from top gear.

My 2004 does not have the cargo space of the 1980s models, too much frufru on the sides, but it will still take a stack of 4x8s.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban K2500 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://www.mnautox.com


----- Original Message -----

> From: "John Niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 7:07:01 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] suburban question
> 
> any of you guys driving a late model Chevy Suburban... 2008-2011...
> any
> reviews or comments... how bout gas mileage...   I'm thinking about
> dropping
> the hammer on one...
> 
> thanks
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>  is to serve as a bad example
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From mikey at b2systems.com  Thu Apr 28 10:16:21 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:16:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
Message-ID: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>

  I am looking at buying some equipment for my garage and according to 
the website its 320lbs, 60"x20"30, the guy that has it is in NH (03748) 
and I am in S. Calif. (93105), he says the last person who looked at 
buying in S. Calif. was quoted $150 for shipping and backed out because 
of shipping costs. I am willing to pay that shipping cost for this unit 
but everywhere I go on the web starts at $525 and goes up to $650.   I 
know it can be cheaper if I go terminal to terminal and he is willing to 
take it to one local to him, my closest would be in Oxnard about 1 hour 
away.   How do I get this thing shipped CHEAP, I did try the standard 
ones like UPS but they wont do that weight and looking on the web just 
seems to get the expensive ones.

     mike

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Thu Apr 28 10:22:43 2011
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:22:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <DDEC4546-C136-4242-85AE-8FBB925D614E@comcast.net>

In MI I had to ship something out of country and I ended up at
www.argents.com. If memory serves, it had to be a company or some such thing.
Brian K




On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:

> I am looking at buying some equipment for my garage and according to the
website its 320lbs, 60"x20"30, the guy that has it is in NH (03748) and I am
in S. Calif. (93105), he says the last person who looked at buying in S.
Calif. was quoted $150 for shipping and backed out because of shipping costs.
I am willing to pay that shipping cost for this unit but everywhere I go on
the web starts at $525 and goes up to $650.   I know it can be cheaper if I go
terminal to terminal and he is willing to take it to one local to him, my
closest would be in Oxnard about 1 hour away.   How do I get this thing
shipped CHEAP, I did try the standard ones like UPS but they wont do that
weight and looking on the web just seems to get the expensive ones.
>
>    mike
> _______________________________________________

From mpless at servo.ucsd.edu  Thu Apr 28 10:44:19 2011
From: mpless at servo.ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:44:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104280941440.23751@servo.ucsd.edu>

I don't know about weight limits but I know a few people that have 
shipped large items (like car hoods) over the years via Greyhound.



On Thu, 28 Apr 2011, Mike Rambour wrote:
>
> I am looking at buying some equipment for my garage and according to the 
> website its 320lbs, 60"x20"30, the guy that has it is in NH (03748) and I am 
> in S. Calif. (93105), he says the last person who looked at buying in S. 
> Calif. was quoted $150 for shipping and backed out because of shipping costs. 
> I am willing to pay that shipping cost for this unit but everywhere I go on 
> the web starts at $525 and goes up to $650.   I know it can be cheaper if I 
> go terminal to terminal and he is willing to take it to one local to him, my 
> closest would be in Oxnard about 1 hour away.   How do I get this thing 
> shipped CHEAP, I did try the standard ones like UPS but they wont do that 
> weight and looking on the web just seems to get the expensive ones.
>
>    mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mpless at ucsd.edu

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 11:11:59 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:11:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1104280941440.23751@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1104280941440.23751@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=ugEd6ukrNGFsSJRWM+GmPPfCXEA@mail.gmail.com>

*Mike,*
*Here are a coupla possibles based on incentives which*
*motor freight carriers often give businesses:*
**
*1. ask any friend whose business receives a lot of freight*
*if they have any "special deals" on incoming freight.  Have it shipped to
them.*
**
*2. Ask a couple of carriers (don't call, go hang around the dock) if they
have special deals for some customers.*
**
*I was a tractor dealer, received lots of motor freight, and regularly had
offers of up to 50% off if I would always *
*specify a certain carrier.*
**
*Also, get the shipper to shop his business friends for any*
*special deals.*
**
*Crating can make a big difference; using a "stackable" crate*
*just made a a $100 cheaper rate for me on a shipment of an engine **from TX
to CA.*

*Tony*

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Apr 28 11:30:02 2011
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:30:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <013c01cc05c9$e8737d70$b95a7850$@rr.com>

> How do I get this thing shipped CHEAP,

If you are willing to travel a bit farther, you might try Forward Air
http://www.forwardair.com

It's not mentioned on their web site (last time I looked), but they at least
used to take terminal-to-terminal truck freight on a "space available"
basis.  However, I think their nearest terminal would be down here near LAX;
and the shipment probably needs to be on a pallet.  They would probably
deliver to SB, but you'd need a loading dock and it would cost extra.

It's been a few years ago, but I got a pallet with some 400 lbs of car parts
shipped to their LAX terminal from Texas, for under $200.

-- Randall 

From mikey at b2systems.com  Thu Apr 28 12:52:51 2011
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:52:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <4DB9B783.5060006@b2systems.com>

  Just a quick update, I had not thought of Greyhound but their limit is 
100lbs :(  The guy shipping it is being nice and packing it up on a 
crate and willing to drive it to a local freight terminal but that is 
all, not willing to help beyond that and I can kind of understand it as 
it takes time to do more.

   I can't seem to find better rates then about $300, I just thought 
since the last Calif. guy interested quoted $150 I could do the same.  
Yeah, even with that shipping its still cheaper than buying one new but 
its more than I can get a equivalent locally if/when a used one goes up.

  Still trying but giving up slowly.

     Thanks for the replies, I have some feelers out there and waiting 
for "official" quotes.

     mike

On 04/28/2011 09:16 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:
>  I am looking at buying some equipment for my garage and according to 
> the website its 320lbs, 60"x20"30, the guy that has it is in NH 
> (03748) and I am in S. Calif. (93105), he says the last person who 
> looked at buying in S. Calif. was quoted $150 for shipping and backed 
> out because of shipping costs. I am willing to pay that shipping cost 
> for this unit but everywhere I go on the web starts at $525 and goes 
> up to $650.   I know it can be cheaper if I go terminal to terminal 
> and he is willing to take it to one local to him, my closest would be 
> in Oxnard about 1 hour away.   How do I get this thing shipped CHEAP, 
> I did try the standard ones like UPS but they wont do that weight and 
> looking on the web just seems to get the expensive ones.
>
>     mike

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 12:58:10 2011
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:58:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <013c01cc05c9$e8737d70$b95a7850$@rr.com>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
	<013c01cc05c9$e8737d70$b95a7850$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik2zhn55LqH8Btd9K2D8qzpDd6Gvg@mail.gmail.com>

*My most surprisingly pleasant freight experience was when I bought a
Bearcat*
*outboard  (Coventry-Climax powerhead) *
*from a guy in Murphresboro, Tennessee.*
*To close the deal, he offered free freight*
*to my shop it and even mentioned "overnight"!*

*The next day, an 18 wheeler delivered to my shop in Sherman, Tx!*
**
*Turned out the guy worked for "Gator Freight" **and knew a Dallas shipment
would go north out **of Dallas right through Sherman.*
*Tony*

From 57healey at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 13:23:51 2011
From: 57healey at gmail.com (57healey at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:23:51 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DB9B783.5060006@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com><4DB9B783.5060006@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.3.1304018642.15489.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

Have you tried getting bids through U-Ship?  Patton

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Rambour <mikey at b2systems.com>
Sender: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:52:51 
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop

  Just a quick update, I had not thought of Greyhound but their limit is 
100lbs :(  The guy shipping it is being nice and packing it up on a 
crate and willing to drive it to a local freight terminal but that is 
all, not willing to help beyond that and I can kind of understand it as 
it takes time to do more.

   I can't seem to find better rates then about $300, I just thought 
since the last Calif. guy interested quoted $150 I could do the same.  
Yeah, even with that shipping its still cheaper than buying one new but 
its more than I can get a equivalent locally if/when a used one goes up.

  Still trying but giving up slowly.

     Thanks for the replies, I have some feelers out there and waiting 
for "official" quotes.

     mike

On 04/28/2011 09:16 AM, Mike Rambour wrote:
>  I am looking at buying some equipment for my garage and according to 
> the website its 320lbs, 60"x20"30, the guy that has it is in NH 
> (03748) and I am in S. Calif. (93105), he says the last person who 
> looked at buying in S. Calif. was quoted $150 for shipping and backed 
> out because of shipping costs. I am willing to pay that shipping cost 
> for this unit but everywhere I go on the web starts at $525 and goes 
> up to $650.   I know it can be cheaper if I go terminal to terminal 
> and he is willing to take it to one local to him, my closest would be 
> in Oxnard about 1 hour away.   How do I get this thing shipped CHEAP, 
> I did try the standard ones like UPS but they wont do that weight and 
> looking on the web just seems to get the expensive ones.
>
>     mike
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/57healey at gmail.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Apr 28 13:31:50 2011
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:31:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <20110428193004.87C9218766B@autox.team.net>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com><4DB9B783.5060006@b2systems.com>
	<20110428193004.87C9218766B@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <4DB9C0A6.2010803@milleredp.com>

On 4/28/2011 12:23 PM, 57healey at gmail.com wrote:
> Have you tried getting bids through U-Ship?  Patton

I've used freightquote.com in the past with reasonable success, but 
that's been a few years.

$4+ gas/diesel/Jet A screws just about everyone and everything that moves.

John.

From badgermt at cableone.net  Thu Apr 28 15:16:33 2011
From: badgermt at cableone.net (Badger Mountain Motorworks)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:16:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <4DB9D931.7030900@cableone.net>


From badgermt at cableone.net  Thu Apr 28 15:24:43 2011
From: badgermt at cableone.net (Badger Mountain Motorworks)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:24:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] off-topic a LITTLE, its for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4DB9D931.7030900@cableone.net>
References: <4DB992D5.3070806@b2systems.com> <4DB9D931.7030900@cableone.net>
Message-ID: <4DB9DB1B.4030901@cableone.net>


From shochschild at att.net  Sat Apr 30 06:55:31 2011
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 07:55:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
Message-ID: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>

Any opinions on the mid-rise, semi portable DannMar MaxJax as seen here: 
http://www.maxjaxusa.com/  ?

I'm close to pulling the trigger, but figured I would ask the experts 
here first...

$1999, free shipping and one vendor agreed to throw in the motorcycle 
adapter.

Thanks!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Apr 30 07:43:39 2011
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:43:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>
References: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>
Message-ID: <D68608866B444ACAA0D3E66AD70E5049@EricJRussellPC>

Browse around on the Garage Journal forums for more opinions.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

I'd ask, do you not have the ceiling height for a 'regular' lift? A quick
look at the link you provided indicates the posts still need to be bolted
down. They make it look like it takes 0.8 seconds to remove those bolts to
then allow you to move the post. I suspect it won't be quite as quick &
easy... Also, check the concrete flooring requirements for any 2 post lift. 
A standard residential garage floor may not meet these requirements.

IMO, if you want a 2 post lift and have the ceiling height, a regular lift
will not cost more & might be more useful. It won't be 'mobile' but if that
is your main criteria then consider a scissor lift. The problem with scissor
lifts is they drastically restrict access to the underside of the vehicle.

I bought a 4 post lift. I use it for both storage (parking one car above the
other) and for working on/under a car. A 2 post lift is ideal for working on
a car but not for storage.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <shochschild at att.net>
To: <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:55 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?


> Any opinions on the mid-rise, semi portable DannMar MaxJax as seen here:
> http://www.maxjaxusa.com/  ?
>
> I'm close to pulling the trigger, but figured I would ask the experts here
> first...
>
> $1999, free shipping and one vendor agreed to throw in the motorcycle
> adapter.

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Apr 30 07:52:24 2011
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:52:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <D68608866B444ACAA0D3E66AD70E5049@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <OF6F38DEF3.D86D8B12-ON85257882.004CA777-85257882.004D7050@mail.megageek.com>

I can't agree more with Eric's comments (maybe us "Eric's" think alike!)

The real rub here is that the capacity is only 6000lbs.  I guarantee you 
that you will have stuff that you want to put on it but can't.

My lift is 12,000 and I find that I want to get a bigger/heavy unit!  8>) 
My lift was $2,400 delivered to my door.

Plus, the actual lift height isn't that impressive. 

Lets not forget that you have two hydraulic lines that are in your way if 
you are trying to roll a tool box around or something.

Most importantly, think about this, YOU will be under that car.  Do you 
want to worry about it falling?  I know that I am much happier with a lift 
that is only operating within 30% of it's limits, than one that is at near 
capacity.  Plus, each time you need to make sure you torque the bolts 
correctly.  After a while, I would image the bolts would be stretched and 
no good.  Cars and lifts can be replaced, you can't. 

If you are near NJ, I'll be happy to come over and help with the install 
of a real lift.  They are much safer.  I'll even bring my hammer drill and 
fork lift! 8>)


Moose (who was name "Eric" at birth.)  8>)
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




"Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
04/30/2011 09:34

To
<shochschild at att.net>, "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?






Browse around on the Garage Journal forums for more opinions.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

I'd ask, do you not have the ceiling height for a 'regular' lift? A quick
look at the link you provided indicates the posts still need to be bolted
down. They make it look like it takes 0.8 seconds to remove those bolts to
then allow you to move the post. I suspect it won't be quite as quick &
easy... Also, check the concrete flooring requirements for any 2 post 
lift. 
A standard residential garage floor may not meet these requirements.

IMO, if you want a 2 post lift and have the ceiling height, a regular lift
will not cost more & might be more useful. It won't be 'mobile' but if 
that
is your main criteria then consider a scissor lift. The problem with 
scissor
lifts is they drastically restrict access to the underside of the vehicle.

I bought a 4 post lift. I use it for both storage (parking one car above 
the
other) and for working on/under a car. A 2 post lift is ideal for working 
on
a car but not for storage.

Eric Russell

From shochschild at att.net  Sat Apr 30 12:00:49 2011
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 13:00:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>
References: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>
Message-ID: <4DBC4E51.3010207@att.net>

Thanks for your responses.  I just spent a couple of hours on the 
GarageJournal and appreciate that pointer.

More detail: I might put my Jeep Grand Cherokee tow vehicle on there 
once or twice, but I am buying this to work on my 944 track car.  I 
raced it in ITS about twenty years ago, so it needs a lot of 
refreshing.  I live in Austin and the local racetrack actually seems to 
be becoming a reality, so...

I do not need more capacity, this is only occasional, hobby level, 
dilettante use, and the portability advantage is huge, but these threads 
have triggered more questions and thought.  Thanks!


On 4/30/2011 7:55 AM, shochschild at att.net wrote:
> Any opinions on the mid-rise, semi portable DannMar MaxJax as seen 
> here: http://www.maxjaxusa.com/  ?
>
> I'm close to pulling the trigger, but figured I would ask the experts 
> here first...
>
> $1999, free shipping and one vendor agreed to throw in the motorcycle 
> adapter.
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Apr 30 13:20:09 2011
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 12:20:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <4DBC4E51.3010207@att.net>
References: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net> <4DBC4E51.3010207@att.net>
Message-ID: <5FD1782255BE4C1EA4C4986BA0327E2D@EntCent>

Now you may only need this for XYZ, but I have seen the Costco four post
lift with casters for moving it.  It's a nice piece, you can park under it,
lift up the car with jack stands, etc., for about $2,100 delivered two years
ago.

Consider future needs on this one time purchase.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of shochschild at att.net
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 11:01 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?

Thanks for your responses.  I just spent a couple of hours on the 
GarageJournal and appreciate that pointer.

More detail: I might put my Jeep Grand Cherokee tow vehicle on there 
once or twice, but I am buying this to work on my 944 track car.  I 
raced it in ITS about twenty years ago, so it needs a lot of 
refreshing.  I live in Austin and the local racetrack actually seems to 
be becoming a reality, so...

I do not need more capacity, this is only occasional, hobby level, 
dilettante use, and the portability advantage is huge, but these threads 
have triggered more questions and thought.  Thanks!


On 4/30/2011 7:55 AM, shochschild at att.net wrote:
> Any opinions on the mid-rise, semi portable DannMar MaxJax as seen 
> here: http://www.maxjaxusa.com/  ?
>
> I'm close to pulling the trigger, but figured I would ask the experts 
> here first...
>
> $1999, free shipping and one vendor agreed to throw in the motorcycle 
> adapter.
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From racertod at racertodd.com  Sat Apr 30 13:38:12 2011
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 12:38:12 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <4DBC4E51.3010207@att.net>
References: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net> <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20110430122859.00bd7788@mail.avvanta.com>

         Do not dismiss the roll-away hydraulic lift concept as 
wimpy.  Here is the Manly Man version!  Possibly a bit of overkill for our 
sort of shops, though.

<http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx253/oldcrlvr/Rail%20Road/2010-04-01132858.jpg>
<http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx253/oldcrlvr/Rail%20Road/2010-04-01132834.jpg>
<http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx253/oldcrlvr/Rail%20Road/2010-04-01132806.jpg>

         That's 277,000lbs of locomotive being raised to swap out a truck...

Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 273,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       281,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From jmitch at snet.net  Sat Apr 30 13:51:34 2011
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:51:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tig Welder
Message-ID: <4DBC6846.5010106@snet.net>

     I've asked the wife for a Tig welder for an anniversary present.  I 
need recommendations on models in the $1500 range if that's practical.  
It will mostly be used for automotive tasks and I definitely want the 
ability to weld aluminum.  I have a small 240v plasma cutter, and a 
small 120v Miller mig which is great for sheet metal repairs.  I'd like 
a tig for doing projects that require a prettier weld and possibly for 
frame repairs where my Mig is very marginal.  I'd appreciate any 
insights.  Thanks    John Mitchell    Shelton, CT

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Apr 30 15:49:37 2011
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 14:49:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tig Welder
In-Reply-To: <4DBC6846.5010106@snet.net>
References: <4DBC6846.5010106@snet.net>
Message-ID: <4DBC83F1.9000706@comcast.net>

TIGs have an infinite number of possible settings; if you're not an expert or don't plan to get some training it will 
take a while to figure out all the settings.  If you're not an expert--or can't spend a lot of time learning--the Miller 
Diversion series is nice kit.  I got a Diversion 180 from these guys:

http://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/servlet/the-3391/MILLER-DIVERSION-165-AC-fdsh-DC/Detail

Free shipping and no tax if you don't live in IN.  I got the 180, which is a bit more powerful and more expensive, but 
IOC doesn't seem to carry them any more.  NFI, etc.; I just got good price and service from them.

With the Diversion, you set the metal type (Al or steel), and the approximate thickness of the material.  Current is 
controlled by a rotary knob on the torch; this is a bit awkward but a pedal control is optional (but not convenient if 
you're not welding on the bench).

For frame repair you'd probably want at least 180A.

Bob



On 4/30/2011 12:51 PM, John Mitchell wrote:
>     I've asked the wife for a Tig welder for an anniversary present.  I need recommendations on models in the $1500 
> range if that's practical.  It will mostly be used for automotive tasks and I definitely want the ability to weld 
> aluminum.  I have a small 240v plasma cutter, and a small 120v Miller mig which is great for sheet metal repairs.  I'd 
> like a tig for doing projects that require a prettier weld and possibly for frame repairs where my Mig is very 
> marginal.  I'd appreciate any insights.  Thanks    John Mitchell    Shelton, CT
> _______________________________________________
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From rkg at teleport.com  Sat Apr 30 16:24:44 2011
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:24:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tig Welder
In-Reply-To: <4DBC83F1.9000706@comcast.net>
References: <4DBC6846.5010106@snet.net> <4DBC83F1.9000706@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4DBC8C2C.8090303@teleport.com>

Hi,

I have a Lincoln Square Wave Tig 175 that I like, but I bought it a 
while ago, and no doubt something better has come along...

FWIW, you might want to head down to the local welding shop and try a 
few welders out.

Best,

rkg
(Richard George)

On 4/30/2011 2:49 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
> TIGs have an infinite number of possible settings; if you're not an 
> expert or don't plan to get some training it will take a while to 
> figure out all the settings.  If you're not an expert--or can't spend 
> a lot of time learning--the Miller Diversion series is nice kit.  I 
> got a Diversion 180 from these guys:
>
> http://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/servlet/the-3391/MILLER-DIVERSION-165-AC-fdsh-DC/Detail 
>
>
> Free shipping and no tax if you don't live in IN.  I got the 180, 
> which is a bit more powerful and more expensive, but IOC doesn't seem 
> to carry them any more.  NFI, etc.; I just got good price and service 
> from them.
>
> With the Diversion, you set the metal type (Al or steel), and the 
> approximate thickness of the material.  Current is controlled by a 
> rotary knob on the torch; this is a bit awkward but a pedal control is 
> optional (but not convenient if you're not welding on the bench).
>
> For frame repair you'd probably want at least 180A.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 4/30/2011 12:51 PM, John Mitchell wrote:
>>     I've asked the wife for a Tig welder for an anniversary present.  
>> I need recommendations on models in the $1500 range if that's 
>> practical.  It will mostly be used for automotive tasks and I 
>> definitely want the ability to weld aluminum.  I have a small 240v 
>> plasma cutter, and a small 120v Miller mig which is great for sheet 
>> metal repairs.  I'd like a tig for doing projects that require a 
>> prettier weld and possibly for frame repairs where my Mig is very 
>> marginal.  I'd appreciate any insights.  Thanks    John Mitchell    
>> Shelton, CT
>> _______________________________________________

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sat Apr 30 16:37:51 2011
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 18:37:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tig Welder
In-Reply-To: <4DBC6846.5010106@snet.net>
References: <4DBC6846.5010106@snet.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1104301816510.14864@itonami.pair.com>

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011, John Mitchell wrote:
>    I've asked the wife for a Tig welder for an anniversary present.  I need 
> recommendations on models in the $1500 range if that's practical.  It will 
> mostly be used for automotive tasks and I definitely want the ability to weld 
> aluminum.  I have a small 240v plasma cutter, and a small 120v Miller mig 
> which is great for sheet metal repairs.  I'd like a tig for doing projects 
> that require a prettier weld and possibly for frame repairs where my Mig is 
> very marginal.  I'd appreciate any insights.  Thanks    John Mitchell 
> Shelton, CT

    Just went down this road myself ( and bought a Miller Syncrowave 180 
at the upper end of your range, fwiw ).

    If you want to do aluminum, you need an AC/DC tig.  Many of the 
less-expensive units are DC only, and will be of little use to you.  You 
also need more juice for aluminum, probably at least 175a.  Most people 
will say you need 200 for AL, but that will be tough in your budget.

    Speaking of power, the next big decision you'll need to make is if you 
want an inverter or transformer.  Inverters are newer, more efficient, 
smaller, and not-surprisingly, more expensive.  The only new inverters in 
your budget are the Miller Diversion 165/Hobart EZ-Tig twins ( both 
Illinois Tool Works companies, same unit, different color... ~$1300 new, 
the Hobart comes w/ foot pedal the Miller w/ finger control ) and many 
Chinese-made knockoffs.  Transformers are everything else, although they 
are still made.

    If you are buying new, and spending less than $1500, I think that about 
wraps your choices.  Most people will tell you to stay away from the 
Chinese-built machines for several reasons.  I did not consider them.

    If you are open to buying used, you can get a very nice AC/DC tig for 
$1500.  Transformer machines like the Syncrowave ( 180, 200, 250 ) or 
Lincoln Precision Tig ( 185, 225 ) or Squarewave ( 175, 225 ) sell in that 
neighborhood, and will be just what you are looking for.  They are bigger 
( mine is 225 pounds ) and will require serious electricity at the top 
end ( typically a 50a or 60a 240v circuit ).  Inverters will make the 
same output on a 30a circuit, so consider the cost of upgrading if 
necessary.

    There are also much older AC/DC tigs that can be had for under a $1k, 
such as the Miller Econotig and Econo Twin HF.  $500-800 is a typical 
price, and they are obviously transfomer-based ( ie huge and power hungry 
).

    Plan on practicing once you get it ;)  I just came in from that very 
activity.

--
  David Hillman

From mdporter at dfn.com  Sat Apr 30 17:20:00 2011
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:20:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tig Welder
In-Reply-To: <4DBC83F1.9000706@comcast.net>
References: <4DBC6846.5010106@snet.net> <4DBC83F1.9000706@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4DBC9920.2040807@dfn.com>

On 4/30/2011 3:49 PM, Bob Spidell wrote:
> TIGs have an infinite number of possible settings; if you're not an 
> expert or don't plan to get some training it will take a while to 
> figure out all the settings.  If you're not an expert--or can't spend 
> a lot of time learning--the Miller Diversion series is nice kit.  I 
> got a Diversion 180 from these guys:
>
> http://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/servlet/the-3391/MILLER-DIVERSION-165-AC-fdsh-DC/Detail 
>
>
>
> With the Diversion, you set the metal type (Al or steel), and the 
> approximate thickness of the material.  Current is controlled by a 
> rotary knob on the torch; this is a bit awkward but a pedal control is 
> optional (but not convenient if you're not welding on the bench).

M'self, I much prefer a foot pedal--much easier to start an arc and 
control current with just a little practice, and it leaves both hands 
free to work the weld.  One can likely find them with 15-20' cabling, 
which pretty much eliminates the problem of having to stay close to the 
welder.


>
> For frame repair you'd probably want at least 180A.
>

I doubt that one will find any plate in a modern frame much over 3/16" 
thick (and 11 gauge would likely be the upper end of the norm), and 165A 
would probably handle that okay.  What does matter, regardless of 
current output, is duty cycle.  This unit is good for 150A at a 20% duty 
cycle, so one had better plan on doing other things while the unit cools 
off after high-current use.  The other issue is the torch itself--a 
gas-cooled torch is probably fine for short duty-cycle use, but, if one 
is planning on doing extended runs, I'm betting that the torch will get 
uncomfortably warm (I've only used water-cooled torches and never had 
problems with the torch getting too warm to control with gloves on, but, 
with the torch running for several minutes, I could feel the torch 
getting noticeably warm).


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 30 18:40:35 2011
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:40:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20110430122859.00bd7788@mail.avvanta.com>
References: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net> <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>,
	<5.1.0.14.2.20110430122859.00bd7788@mail.avvanta.com>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W1981F1C04DF99A4F3F12FAE19C0@phx.gbl>

>Possibly a bit of overkill for our sort of shops, though.

Ya think...

That must be for the large british cars! %^)

Rich White Central, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF###L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Apr 30 19:02:20 2011
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:02:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W1981F1C04DF99A4F3F12FAE19C0@phx.gbl>
References: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net> <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net>,
	<5.1.0.14.2.20110430122859.00bd7788@mail.avvanta.com>
	<SNT123-W1981F1C04DF99A4F3F12FAE19C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A7E0D7E5-F85E-464B-9EDA-34B301D01EB5@gmail.com>

The little British castle perhaps?

On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:40 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Possibly a bit of overkill for our sort of shops, though.
>
> Ya think...
>
> That must be for the large british cars! %^)
>
> Rich White Central, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF###L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Apr 30 20:16:53 2011
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:16:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DannMar MaxJax ?
In-Reply-To: <4DBC4E51.3010207@att.net>
References: <4DBC06C3.1080705@att.net> <4DBC4E51.3010207@att.net>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimOxPyK7inV4K+ZWTJ6K=Fs=_3g-w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure it would get a car high enough for me, and as others have
mentioned it's not much cheaper than "full size" higher capacity units. I'm
planning a "regular" two post for my new shop. The biggest reason is to make
working on our various vehicles much easier. At 64 and with banged up knees
being able to stand comfortably and work under a car is a BIG deal.

Ron

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:00 PM, shochschild at att.net <shochschild at att.net>wrote:

> Thanks for your responses.  I just spent a couple of hours on the
> GarageJournal and appreciate that pointer.
>
> More detail: I might put my Jeep Grand Cherokee tow vehicle on there once
> or twice, but I am buying this to work on my 944 track car.  I raced it in
> ITS about twenty years ago, so it needs a lot of refreshing.  I live in
> Austin and the local racetrack actually seems to be becoming a reality,
> so...
>
> I do not need more capacity, this is only occasional, hobby level,
> dilettante use, and the portability advantage is huge, but these threads
> have triggered more questions and thought.  Thanks!