From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Thu Sep 2 18:37:09 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes? In-Reply-To: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4C804335.9090106@tx.rr.com> There was an advertisement in our newspaper this morning for a Labor Day sale at Sears outlet. The interesting things in there were an angle grinder for $29.99 (50% off), and 40% off all garage and tool storage (rolling toolboxes!). > I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away > and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap, > and a few models that look decent but could be decent-looking crap. Anyone > bought Craftsman recently that can comment on good models? From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Sep 2 21:52:09 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:52:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes? In-Reply-To: <4C804335.9090106@tx.rr.com> References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> <4C804335.9090106@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <00a201cb4b1b$633c5690$29b503b0$@ameritech.net> This thread has gone on and on, and I've tried to be quiet, but the mention of a Labor Day sale at Sears and all the moaning about Sears' crap toolboxes prompted me to throw this in. Last Christmas at the Sears Black Friday sale Craftsman's Club members were offered a 14-drawer (all full-width, no cut-in-half drawers where one counts as two) combo for $289 - basically $100 per piece. The intermediate cabinet is usually at least that on sale, and the other parts are far higher on a good sale. Rolling base, intermediate cabinet, and top cabinet. All drawers, no open compartment on the bottom. The upper two boxes are the shallower (12" deep ?) ones - not the better 18", and the set has Quiet Glide slides, not Ball Bearing which I realize every real man absolutely must have. For $289 I bought them to replace my shorter, 2-piece set of Craftsman boxes from 1978, which will now go to the airport. I've had no problem with the standard slides on my old ones, and these Quiet Glides are smother. As far as I can see, the steel is the same thickness and the quality is the same as my old ones. Were I using this stuff daily to make a living, it'd be different, but the standard slides have been fine for 32 years, and these are better. And I didn't have to pay the Snap-Off man 10 times as much. I overload some drawers and they open just fine, though I don't keep any of them filled with concrete or slabs of 1" plate steel. For my money, these are pretty nice. And they look just like the Waterloos I've seen in recent years, so I think this line at least is still made by them. Karl Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes? There was an advertisement in our newspaper this morning for a Labor Day sale at Sears outlet. The interesting things in there were an angle grinder for $29.99 (50% off), and 40% off all garage and tool storage (rolling toolboxes!). > I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a > roll-away and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see > lots of crap, and a few models that look decent but could be > decent-looking crap. Anyone bought Craftsman recently that can comment on good models? From vlm at te-motorworks.com Fri Sep 3 06:38:23 2010 From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vincent Marshall) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 08:38:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes? In-Reply-To: <00a201cb4b1b$633c5690$29b503b0$@ameritech.net> References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org> <4C804335.9090106@tx.rr.com> <00a201cb4b1b$633c5690$29b503b0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: Another thought on this topic that I don't think anyone else has mentioned - if you have some flexibility, you could buy used. With the economy on the skids, there are some great deals to be had on snap-on, matco, and mac boxes. It's a shame, but things really seem to be getting unloaded right now. Check craigslist and the local classifieds. I've seen a number of great deals around here, some even with a heap of tools. -vin From ronglue at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 09:44:45 2010 From: ronglue at yahoo.com (Ron Horwitz) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads Message-ID: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Underground irrigation system has a riser that snapped off. The main plumbing in the ground is a 1/2" PVC tee with female threads. A PVC pipe with male threads fit in. The riser broke clean at the top of the tee fitting. What is the best way to get the riser threads out of the tee? Nothing above to grip into. I guess I could drill it out but am afraid of hurting the tee threads. Is there some trick I don't know? Thanks! From mgowen55 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 4 11:10:09 2010 From: mgowen55 at hotmail.com (Glenn Owen) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 13:10:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads In-Reply-To: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Same thing happened to me while installing a system a couple of weeks ago. I just tapped an oversized flat screwdriver (tapered blade) into the broken off piece and unscrewed with no problem. If this is an old installation and the sealer has hardened, you might have a bigger problem. > Underground irrigation system has a riser that snapped off. The main > plumbing in the ground is a 1/2" PVC tee with female threads. A PVC pipe > with male threads fit in. The riser broke clean at the top of the tee > fitting. What is the best way to get the riser threads out of the tee? > Nothing above to grip into. I guess I could drill it out but am afraid of > hurting the tee threads. Is there some trick I don't know? From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Sep 4 11:41:53 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:41:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads In-Reply-To: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C8284E1.8070302@xxiii.com> On 9/4/2010 11:44 AM, Ron Horwitz wrote: > Underground irrigation system has a riser that snapped off. The main plumbing in the ground is a 1/2" PVC tee with female threads. A PVC pipe with male threads fit in. The riser broke clean at the top of the tee fitting. What is the best way to get the riser threads out of the tee? Hmm, seems like there should be some "easy out" kinda tool that would expand as turned CCW and grip the ID. But I don't knwo of one right off. I do know they make reamers for cleaning out the ID of PVC fittings that have been previously glued into. I understand yours is threaded, but that might still be an option. At least to get a little extension or nipple in to get up to a threaded fitting? -Wayne From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Sep 4 12:46:31 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 11:46:31 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads In-Reply-To: <4C8284E1.8070302@xxiii.com> References: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C8284E1.8070302@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <18a101cb4c61$7e02c300$0301a8c0@randall> > Hmm, seems like there should be some "easy out" kinda tool that would > expand as turned CCW and grip the ID. I can't seem to find the kind I have on the net. It's kind of a cross between a tapered reamer and an "Easy Out", except it has only a very slight LH twist. You have to tap it into place with a hammer, but it works better for me than the "Easy Out" variety (which tend to expand the nipple and lock it into place even harder). But here is something somewhat similar, that should work: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQRAOM Randall From bk13 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 4 13:08:53 2010 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 12:08:53 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads In-Reply-To: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C829945.6080403@earthlink.net> Got to your local home center or hardware store and get a nipple extractor. Orbit 1/2 In. & 3/4 In. Plastic Nipple Extractor sku 649119 for $3.97 at Home Depot Lowes has it as part of kit 161869. Push it in the broken riser and unscrew. On the really tough ones, push down hard, and wiggle it around to get a good bite so it doesn't slip. Brian On 9/4/2010 8:44 AM, Ron Horwitz wrote: > Underground irrigation system has a riser that snapped off. The main plumbing in the ground is a 1/2" PVC tee with female threads. A PVC pipe with male threads fit in. The riser broke clean at the top of the tee fitting. What is the best way to get the riser threads out of the tee? Nothing above to grip into. I guess I could drill it out but am afraid of hurting the tee threads. Is there some trick I don't know? > > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From strovato at optonline.net Sat Sep 4 13:23:38 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 15:23:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads In-Reply-To: References: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0L88007LVLVDUO80@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> How about heating up the oversized screwdriver so that it melts the plastic a bit when it is inserted. That should grab the broken piece pretty well. Keep in mind that everything is plastic here, so if a lot of force is required, you're probably going to just snap something somewhere else. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 01:10 PM 9/4/2010, Glenn Owen wrote: >Same thing happened to me while installing a system a couple of >weeks ago. I just tapped an oversized flat screwdriver (tapered >blade) into the broken off piece and unscrewed with no problem. >If this is an old installation and the sealer has hardened, you >might have a bigger problem. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Sep 4 13:37:27 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 15:37:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads In-Reply-To: <4C829945.6080403@earthlink.net> References: <34592.25494.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C829945.6080403@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C829FF7.1050601@xxiii.com> On 9/4/2010 3:08 PM, Brian Kemp wrote: > Got to your local home center or hardware store and get a nipple extractor. > Orbit 1/2 In. & 3/4 In. Plastic Nipple Extractor sku 649119 for $3.97 at > Home Depot Yeah! that's it! I knew I'd seen something like that before. Beer also helps with Nipple Extraction ;) -W From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Sep 4 14:53:31 2010 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 16:53:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] O.T. - Army Field Band in AL FL GA NC SC VA Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100904165321.04721ce0@cox.net> Hey gang, If you live in any of the above states, check to see if they are jplaying a concert near you (listed below). The concerts are free, and always very good!!! You may need tickets, so call the info number give. I know the last concert here sold out! If you make it out to a concert, try and find my son and say hello, his name is John C. Blair and he plays Clairnet. John Date Time City Concert Information October 14 7:30 PM Petersburg, VA Petersburg High School Auditorium For information call 804-732-3456 October 15 7:00 PM New Bern, NC Grover C Fields Middle School Auditorium For information call 252-635-1710 October 16 4:00 PM Pinehurst, NC The Village Arboretum For information call 910-692-2787 October 17 3:00 PM Columbia, SC Township Auditorium For information call 803-576-2356 October 19 7:00 PM Statesboro, GA Statesboro High School Performing Arts Auditorium For information call 301-677-6586. October 20 7:30 PM Valdosta, GA Mathis Municipal Auditorium For information call 301-677-6586. October 21 7:00 PM Orange Park, FL St Johns Country Day School Performing Arts Center For information call 301-677-6586. October 23 7:00 PM Daytona Beach, FL Peabody Auditorium For information call 301-677-6586. October 24 3:00 PM Palm Beach Gardens, FL Palm Beach State College - Eissey Campus Theatre For information call 301-677-6586. October 24 7:00 PM Palm Beach Gardens, FL Palm Beach State College - Eissey Campus Theatre For information call 301-677-6586. October 27 7:30 PM Coral Springs, FL Coral Springs Center for the Arts For information call 301-677-6586. October 28 12:00 AM Naples, FL Gulf Coast High School For information call 301-677-6586. October 30 7:30 PM Avon Park, FL South Florida Community College - Theatre for the Performing Arts For information call 301-677-6586. November 2 7:00 PM Lakeland, FL The Lakeland Center - Youkey Theatre For information call 301-677-6586. November 3 7:30 PM Gainesville, FL University of Florida - Phillips Center for the Performing Arts For information call 301-677-6586. November 4 7:00 PM Perry, FL Forest Capital Park - Heritage Pavilion For information call 301-677-6586. November 6 7:00 PM Lynn Haven, FL A.Crawford Mosley High School Gymnasium For information call 301-677-6586. November 7 3:00 PM Graceville, FL Baptist College of Florida - Assembly Center For information call 301-677-6586. November 8 7:00 PM Montgomery, AL Frazer Memorial United Methodist Church - Wesley Hall For information call 301-677-6586. November 9 7:00 PM Auburn, AL Auburn High School - Auburn Performing Arts Center , For information call 301-677-6586. November 10 7:00 PM LaGrange, GA First Baptist Church on the Square For information call 301-677-6586. November 11 7:00 PM Duluth , GA Gwinnett Center - Convention Center Grand Ballroom For information call 301-677-6586. November 13 7:30 PM Aiken, SC St John's United Methodist Church For information call 301-677-6586. November 14 3:00 PM Central , SC South Wesleyan University - Newton Hobson Chapel and Fine Arts Center For information call 301-677-6586. November 15 7:00 PM Duncan, SC District Five Fine Arts Center For information call 301-677-6586. November 17 7:00 PM Fayetteville, NC Crown Center Arena For information call 301-677-6586. November 18 7:30 PM Richmond, VA Richmond Landmark Theater , For information call 301-677-6586. John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From ronglue at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 08:01:43 2010 From: ronglue at yahoo.com (Ron Horwitz) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] removing broken PVC threads In-Reply-To: <4C829945.6080403@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <334425.6400.qm@web36308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 9/4/10, Brian Kemp wrote: > > Orbit 1/2 In. & 3/4 In. Plastic Nipple Extractor sku > 649119 for $3.97 at > Home Depot > Yes! Exactly! Worked perfect. Who knew I needed a nipple extractor? Proves once again that you can never run out of tool buying opportunities. Thanks, Ron From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Fri Sep 10 21:41:56 2010 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:41:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... Message-ID: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> Hoping to tap the collective knowledge for ideas. I'm stumped. Parents have a 3-year old Whirlpool refrigerator, 21 cuft or thereabouts, that runs excessively. Certainly runs more often than my 7 year old Maytag. At first I wrote this off as simply expected behavior; thinking that newer Energy Star units are designed with smaller, more efficient compressors that run more frequently but still save money. But I think something else is going on. Twice my parents have had techs come out to examine the fridge on the basis that it was running too frequently. Neither could explain the behavior but one replaced the thermostat and the other replaced both the thermostat and the defrost controller. No change. To me, this lent support to my idea that the fridge was operating normally. But now I'm no longer convinced. Today, I lent my parents my Kill-A-Watt meter. In 9 hours, with nobody home, the fridge drew 5.3 KWh. That works out to 14 KWh/day or over 5000 KWh/year. According to a quick Google search, that's about 4x higher than what a typical 22cuft 3-year-old fridge should be drawing and about 10x higher than what an Energy Star-rated fridge of that vintage should be drawing. Neither the fridge nor the freezer are set to an abnormally low temperature and the house isn't abnormally warm (72-74 degF). I don't detect any air leaks around the door seal nor do I feel any cold spots around the fridge's exterior that would suggest faulty insulation. The fridge shipped with an automatic ice maker but I'm told my parents have disabled it. I don't know a whole lot about refrigerators so I'm at a loss to explain what's going on. Any ideas what might be going on? JM From mark at bradakis.com Fri Sep 10 21:50:51 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:50:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... In-Reply-To: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> References: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <4C8AFC9B.4040700@bradakis.com> Perhaps a leak in the system so the whatever they used to replace freon is low, and the compressor is working overtime trying to compensate for the lack of refrigerant. mjb. From mbarre at juno.com Fri Sep 10 22:39:35 2010 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 04:39:35 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... Message-ID: <20100911.003935.3500.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Certainly someone confirmed that the coils were clear and not all covered with dog hair, etc?!? ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Jimmie Mayfield To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:41:56 -0400 Hoping to tap the collective knowledge for ideas. I'm stumped. Parents have a 3-year old Whirlpool refrigerator, 21 cuft or thereabouts, that runs excessively. Certainly runs more often than my 7 year old Maytag. At first I wrote this off as simply expected behavior; thinking that newer Energy Star units are designed with smaller, more efficient compressors that run more frequently but still save money. But I think something else is going on. Twice my parents have had techs come out to examine the fridge on the basis that it was running too frequently. Neither could explain the behavior but one replaced the thermostat and the other replaced both the thermostat and the defrost controller. No change. To me, this lent support to my idea that the fridge was operating normally. But now I'm no longer convinced. Today, I lent my parents my Kill-A-Watt meter. In 9 hours, with nobody home, the fridge drew 5.3 KWh. That works out to 14 KWh/day or over 5000 KWh/year. According to a quick Google search, that's about 4x higher than what a typical 22cuft 3-year-old fridge should be drawing and about 10x higher than what an Energy Star-rated fridge of that vintage should be drawing. Neither the fridge nor the freezer are set to an abnormally low temperature and the house isn't abnormally warm (72-74 degF). I don't detect any air leaks around the door seal nor do I feel any cold spots around the fridge's exterior that would suggest faulty insulation. The fridge shipped with an automatic ice maker but I'm told my parents have disabled it. I don't know a whole lot about refrigerators so I'm at a loss to explain what's going on. Any ideas what might be going on? JM _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com ____________________________________________________________ EXPOSED: Make $99/hr Online BREAKING NEWS: People are beating the recession by working at home. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c8b083f63ebdb670f1st06vuc From bjzwissler at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 07:03:56 2010 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:03:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... In-Reply-To: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> References: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <4C8B7E3C.7010205@gmail.com> You might want to run the Kill-A-Watt meter for a longer period, like 24-48 hours. You may have hit a defrost cycle which consumes a lot of power in a short time as heaters are activated to melt accumulated ice. Ben..... On 9/10/2010 11:41 PM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > Hoping to tap the collective knowledge for ideas. I'm stumped. > > Parents have a 3-year old Whirlpool refrigerator, 21 cuft or thereabouts, > that runs excessively. Certainly runs more often than my 7 year old Maytag. > At first I wrote this off as simply expected behavior; thinking that newer > Energy Star units are designed with smaller, more efficient compressors that > run more frequently but still save money. But I think something else is > going on. > > Twice my parents have had techs come out to examine the fridge on the basis > that it was running too frequently. Neither could explain the behavior but > one replaced the thermostat and the other replaced both the thermostat and > the defrost controller. No change. To me, this lent support to > my idea that the fridge was operating normally. But now I'm no longer > convinced. > > Today, I lent my parents my Kill-A-Watt meter. In 9 hours, with nobody home, > the fridge drew 5.3 KWh. That works out to 14 KWh/day or over 5000 KWh/year. > According to a quick Google search, that's about 4x higher than what a typical > 22cuft 3-year-old fridge should be drawing and about 10x higher than what an > Energy Star-rated fridge of that vintage should be drawing. > > Neither the fridge nor the freezer are set to an abnormally low temperature and > the house isn't abnormally warm (72-74 degF). I don't detect any air leaks > around the door seal nor do I feel any cold spots around the fridge's exterior > that would suggest faulty insulation. The fridge shipped with an automatic > ice maker but I'm told my parents have disabled it. > > I don't know a whole lot about refrigerators so I'm at a loss to explain > what's going on. Any ideas what might be going on? > > JM > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sat Sep 11 07:19:00 2010 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:19:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... In-Reply-To: <20100911.003935.3500.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> References: <20100911.003935.3500.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <20100911131900.GA8226@sackheads.org> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 04:39:35AM +0000, Matt wrote: > Certainly someone confirmed that the coils were clear and not all covered > with dog hair, etc?!? Yep. I'm told the coils get cleaned regularly (they were certainly clear when I checked). JM From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sat Sep 11 08:00:42 2010 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:00:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... In-Reply-To: <4C8AFC9B.4040700@bradakis.com> References: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> <4C8AFC9B.4040700@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <20100911140042.GB8226@sackheads.org> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 09:50:51PM -0600, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > Perhaps a leak in the system so the whatever they used to > replace freon is low, and the compressor is working overtime > trying to compensate for the lack of refrigerant. I was one of my initial thoughts, too. I cannot say whether the techs checked for this but I would hope so. Parents do say they haven't had a freeze-up like you see with air conditioner units that are low on freon. I also considered the possibility that the defrost heater was somehow running constantly even during the cooling cycle. This would certainly cause the compressor to run longer than normal and the heater would eat up KWh. Next time I'm at their house, I'll try to check (assuming the evaporator coils are easy to access). However, last time I was there, I did hear the distinct *click* of the defrost relay turning "off"... JM From bk13 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 11 08:21:24 2010 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 07:21:24 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... In-Reply-To: <20100911140042.GB8226@sackheads.org> References: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> <4C8AFC9B.4040700@bradakis.com> <20100911140042.GB8226@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <4C8B9064.8030805@earthlink.net> Also check for an option switch like "exterior moisture control". I my 10 year old Maytag, this runs a heater around the door seal area to evaporate condensation. Brian On 9/11/2010 7:00 AM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 09:50:51PM -0600, Mark J Bradakis wrote: >> Perhaps a leak in the system so the whatever they used to >> replace freon is low, and the compressor is working overtime >> trying to compensate for the lack of refrigerant. > I was one of my initial thoughts, too. I cannot say whether the > techs checked for this but I would hope so. Parents do say they haven't > had a freeze-up like you see with air conditioner units that are > low on freon. > > I also considered the possibility that the defrost heater was somehow > running constantly even during the cooling cycle. This would certainly > cause the compressor to run longer than normal and the heater would eat up > KWh. Next time I'm at their house, I'll try to check (assuming the > evaporator coils are easy to access). However, last time I was there, I > did hear the distinct *click* of the defrost relay turning "off"... > > JM > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sat Sep 11 09:18:25 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:18:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... In-Reply-To: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> References: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <05EE779F-9ECF-4E15-ACE8-2CD1A4E6F46D@groupwbench.org> I just fixed a fridge that had the defrost drain hole plugged. While it also showed other more obvious symptoms like flooding the fridge with meltwater that didn't go down the drain, it also ran excessively. Are the compartments actually reaching the temps they're set for? If not, perhaps there's a heat leak somewhere you haven't looked, or the temp lever/control is shorted/opened and not sending the right message to the relay. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Sep 11 12:23:47 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:23:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Scratching my head about a refrigerator... In-Reply-To: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> References: <20100911034156.GA84093@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <4C8BC933.9050103@xxiii.com> On 9/10/2010 11:41 PM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > Parents have a 3-year old Whirlpool refrigerator, 21 cuft or thereabouts, > that runs excessively. Certainly runs more often than my 7 year old Maytag. First a little personal rant about Whirlpool: I have a Duet washer & dryer and a KitchenAid fridge they built. Their quality is spotty; the warranties suck; they now own probably 70% of the "American" appliance brands but > 90% of their products are imports. My German built washer is great, the American dryer so-so, the fridge from where-ever is disappointing, a friend's Mexican washer & dryer totally SUCK. At least their repair parts are inexpensive. Very doubtful I will ever buy a Whirpool brand again. > Today, I lent my parents my Kill-A-Watt meter. In 9 hours, with nobody home, > the fridge drew 5.3 KWh. That works out to 14 KWh/day or over 5000 KWh/year. The Kill-a-Watt on my KitchenAid/Whirpool fridge (side by side, ~25 cu-ft, 3 years old, Energy Star) shows the following: Idle: 2W Running: 131W, 1.2A 8 Day average: 9.9 KWH in 186 hours Monthly equiv: 38.9 KWH ($3.11) My old 1990-ish Kenmore/Whirlpool of the same size ran 90 KWH/month. > I don't know a whole lot about refrigerators so I'm at a loss to explain > what's going on. Any ideas what might be going on? Most modern Whirpools I've seen have the condenser coils on the bottom, with a fan in the lower rear pulling air in the lower front right, and exhausting out the left. They usually have a cheap cardboard panel on the back to cover the air plenum. Check and see if the panel is present and reasonably sealed, and check behind it to see if the fan is running when the compressor is. -Wayne From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sat Sep 11 19:54:00 2010 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:54:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a sheared-off bolt on a brake assembly... Message-ID: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> In the process of trying to remove the front brake rotors from my girlfriend's 95 Taurus, one of the 15mm mounting bolts for the driver side caliper bracket sheared off. After a lot of heating with a torch, I did manage to extract the sheared-off piece from the bracket without damaging the threads. But I've been unable to find a parts store with Saturday business hours that actually sells these guys. In fact, Autozone was the only store that even has an SKU # for this bolt and they'd have to special-order it. So I'll have to wait until Monday when the local Ford parts dept opens... But I'm wondering...Are these bolts manufactured to special tolerances such that replacing one with a hardened bolt from, say, ACE hardware, would be unacceptable from a functional or safety point of view? JM From bspidell at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 20:15:45 2010 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 19:15:45 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a sheared-off bolt on a brake assembly... In-Reply-To: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> References: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <4C8C37D1.2030404@comcast.net> I suspect the fact you asked this question means you're not comfortable using an 'off-the-shelf' bolt from the local hardware store. I wouldn't be. The caliper bolts I've seen usually have a longer shank (unthreaded part) for their length than a typical bolt/screw. If you're in a pinch, put in the store-bought bolt for now, but replace it with the correct one--which will probably cost more than you think it should--first chance you get. bs On 9/11/2010 6:54 PM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > In the process of trying to remove the front brake rotors from my > girlfriend's 95 Taurus, one of the 15mm mounting bolts for the driver side > caliper bracket sheared off. After a lot of heating with a torch, I did > manage to extract the sheared-off piece from the bracket without damaging > the threads. But I've been unable to find a parts store with Saturday > business hours that actually sells these guys. In fact, Autozone was the only > store that even has an SKU # for this bolt and they'd have to special-order it. > So I'll have to wait until Monday when the local Ford parts dept opens... > > But I'm wondering...Are these bolts manufactured to special tolerances > such that replacing one with a hardened bolt from, say, ACE hardware, would be > unacceptable from a functional or safety point of view? > > JM > > > ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Sep 11 21:09:40 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:09:40 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a sheared-off bolt on a brake assembly... In-Reply-To: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> References: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <00fe01cb5227$f1144230$0301a8c0@randall> > So I'll have to wait until Monday when the local Ford parts > dept opens... No junkyards in your area? I'm not familiar with what Ford does, but GM definitely uses special caliper bolts, with long precision shanks. And I sure wouldn't want to be responsible for substituting a hardware store bolt. BTW, NAPA has them listed too (although that won't help much). http://tinyurl.com/2d37hjh Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 21:20:44 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 23:20:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a sheared-off bolt on a brake assembly... In-Reply-To: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> References: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > In the process of trying to remove the front brake rotors from my > girlfriend's 95 Taurus, one of the 15mm mounting bolts for the driver side > caliper bracket sheared off. B After a lot of heating with a torch, I did > manage to extract the sheared-off piece from the bracket without damaging > the threads. B But I've been unable to find a parts store with Saturday > business hours that actually sells these guys. B In fact, Autozone was the only > store that even has an SKU # for this bolt and they'd have to special-order it. > So I'll have to wait until Monday when the local Ford parts dept opens... > > But I'm wondering...Are these bolts manufactured to special tolerances > such that replacing one with a hardened bolt from, say, ACE hardware, would be > unacceptable from a functional or safety point of view? > Junk yard? And, yes, they're not normal bolts. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sat Sep 11 22:53:08 2010 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 00:53:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a sheared-off bolt on a brake assembly... In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb5227$f1144230$0301a8c0@randall> References: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> <00fe01cb5227$f1144230$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <20100912045308.GA43373@sackheads.org> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 08:09:40PM -0700, Randall wrote: > > So I'll have to wait until Monday when the local Ford parts > > dept opens... > > No junkyards in your area? Several. I guess I should have listed that as an option in my original post. I know those in town are closed on weekends but I'm told that there's one ~25 miles away that might be open even on Sunday. *fingers crossed* > BTW, NAPA has them listed too (although that won't help much). > http://tinyurl.com/2d37hjh Not quite. There are two pairs of bolts involved: (hmm...ever notice that it's almost impossible to find a diagram online when you need one?) Here's an image of the caliper bracket: http://tinyurl.com/37v6knk The 12mm caliper bolts and pins in your link fit the bottom holes. Seems every parts store I called stocks these. The 15mm bracket bolt that I sheared off fits into one of the threaded holes on top. Turns out one of the Advance stores in town has in stock (if their online inventory system is to be believed) a complete aftermarket bracket assembly with bolts for around $27. If the junkyard route doesn't pan out tomorrow, simply replacing the whole assembly has some merit since it would save me from ~80 miles of driving my girlfriend to/from work on Monday... JM From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sun Sep 12 08:05:46 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:05:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing a sheared-off bolt on a brake assembly... In-Reply-To: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> References: <20100912015400.GA39886@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <4C8CDE3A.5010206@xxiii.com> On 9/11/2010 9:54 PM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > business hours that actually sells these guys. In fact, Autozone was the only > store that even has an SKU # for this bolt and they'd have to special-order it. > So I'll have to wait until Monday when the local Ford parts dept opens... You familiar with "loaded calipers"? Might be another option to solve your time crunch. They come with the caliper, braket, pads, etc ready to slap on. AutoZone here can usually order them for same or next day delivery. -Wayne From cavanadd at frontier.com Tue Sep 14 19:47:20 2010 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 18:47:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump night setback Message-ID: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> We just had a heat pump system installed to replace our propane furnace. We had no A/C before, either. We kept the propane for emergency heat. My question is how low can you set the night setback and still have a reasonable recovery in the morning. Right now I have it set for 69* heating and 65* on night setback in the heating mode. Night SB kicks in at midnight, back up at 8:00 AM. I'm not going to worry about the A/C part until next summer. The problem is my wife has been told by apparently "several people" that any more than a 4 degree night setback will cause the compressor to run excessively the next day to bring the heat back up, wiping out most of the energy savings from setting the temperature back. Frankly, this sounds like BS to me, but I thought I would get some other opinions from people who have BTDT. I would prefer about an 8 to 10 degree setback, but if 4 is the most recommended, I guess it's better than nothing. Thanks Dave From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Tue Sep 14 20:05:07 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:05:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C9029D3.5060503@tx.rr.com> It might be BS, but you could do your own experiment. Set it one way one night and record your electric meter readings before and after, then the next day set it a different way and try it again. Just be sure to read the meter at the same times each day. > We just had a heat pump system installed to replace our propane furnace. > We had no A/C before, either. We kept the propane for emergency heat. > My question is how low can you set the night setback and still have a > reasonable recovery in the morning. Right now I have it set for 69* > heating and 65* on night setback in the heating mode. Night SB kicks in > at midnight, back up at 8:00 AM. I'm not going to worry about the A/C > part until next summer. > > The problem is my wife has been told by apparently "several people" that > any more than a 4 degree night setback will cause the compressor to run > excessively the next day to bring the heat back up, wiping out most of > the energy savings from setting the temperature back. Frankly, this > sounds like BS to me, but I thought I would get some other opinions from > people who have BTDT. I would prefer about an 8 to 10 degree setback, > but if 4 is the most recommended, I guess it's better than nothing. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 20:41:22 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:41:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:47 PM, David C. wrote: > We just had a heat pump system installed to replace our propane furnace. > B We had no A/C before, either. B We kept the propane for emergency heat. > B My question is how low can you set the night setback and still have a > reasonable recovery in the morning. B Right now I have it set for 69* > heating and 65* on night setback in the heating mode. B Night SB kicks in > at midnight, back up at 8:00 AM. B I'm not going to worry about the A/C > part until next summer. > > The problem is my wife has been told by apparently "several people" that > any more than a 4 degree night setback will cause the compressor to run > excessively the next day to bring the heat back up, wiping out most of > the energy savings from setting the temperature back. B Frankly, this > sounds like BS to me, but I thought I would get some other opinions from > people who have BTDT. B I would prefer about an 8 to 10 degree setback, > but if 4 is the most recommended, I guess it's better than nothing. > It's nonsense, as long as you don't cause the emergency heat to kick in. The magic of heat pumps is that they're more than 100% efficient[1]. Turning on the backup heat costs, with electric resistance backup, three or four times as much as heat from the heat pump; propane will be different numbers, depending on how efficient your furnace is, and what the relative cost of propane and electricity is. But the number of joules required to keep a house at 68F is higher than the number of joules required to let the house cool down overnight, and heat back to 68F. How low you can go without the backup heat depends on a whole lot of things. Probably biggest of them is how well insulated your horse is. If it's well insulated, without lots of air intrusion, the amount of heat required to raise the temperature will be less, as will be the temperature drop overnight, without heat. It'll also depend on what the outside temperature is, as the colder it is outside, the more heat you'll lose, and the less effective your heat pump will be (assuming you've got an air-source pump, and not a ground-source one). Depending on how fancy your thermostat is, there may be a way to lockout the backup heat. If you can do that, you can experiment with how big a setback you can put up with. Part of that will be whether you're willing to put up with a house that's chilly for a couple hours after the heat starts coming back. Depending on your house, and climate, and heat pump, you may well need the backup heat for the coldest part of the year. Air-source heat pumps don't work well below an air temperature of about 40 degrees, though modern ones are someone better, some working with a COP[1] of better than two down to 20F. Ground source pumps work better in cold weather, as the ground tends to be warmer. [1] They're not, of course. The energy comes from the air or the ground, depending on the heat source of your pump, but not somewhere you have to pay for. [2] Coefficient of performance; a measure of how efficient the system is. COP of 1 is 1 watt consumed for 1 watt of heat; CoP of 2 is 1 watt spent for 2 watts of heat, and so on. See point [1], -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jdrush at enter.net Tue Sep 14 21:48:22 2010 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 23:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C904206.5040903@enter.net> On 9/14/2010 9:47 PM, David C. wrote: > We just had a heat pump system installed to replace our propane furnace. > We had no A/C before, either. We kept the propane for emergency heat. > My question is how low can you set the night setback and still have a > reasonable recovery in the morning. Get a modern thermostat. The best ones record the actual recovery time and adjust the recovery start time based on the actual heating performance in your house and the outside temperature. > Right now I have it set for 69* > heating and 65* on night setback in the heating mode. Sounds reasonable to me. That should provide comfortable sleeping conditions for most people. > Night SB kicks in > at midnight, back up at 8:00 AM. Why don't you let it step down earlier? Unless your house is poorly sealed, the thermal mass in your house will make sure that the temperature will not decline quickly? You are not saving much by having it down for 8 hours, minus the recovery time. You may only be cutting out one or two heat cycles depending how well insulated your house is. Get a recording thermometer that will show you a temperature history. You may not even be getting to 65 in that time. If you want to get really tricky but still comfortable in the evening, you can use a 4-period thermostat and have the temps step down in an orderly fashion. > I'm not going to worry about the A/C > part until next summer. The guidelines for heat and AC turn-backs are pretty much the same since the thermal mass is the same. > The problem is my wife has been told by apparently "several people" that > any more than a 4 degree night setback will cause the compressor to run > excessively the next day to bring the heat back up, wiping out most of > the energy savings from setting the temperature back. Frankly, this > sounds like BS to me, but I thought I would get some other opinions from > people who have BTDT. I would prefer about an 8 to 10 degree setback, > but if 4 is the most recommended, I guess it's better than nothing. I took a course on an overview of commercial HVAC issues. The recommendation for commercial buildings with heat pumps was no more than 5 degrees setback for a 12-hour period, due to excessive power consumption to recover the heat in the morning. Something to do with the strengths and weakness of heat-pump efficiency. For 36-hour or longer setbacks (weekends and extended shutdowns) it was acceptable to let the buildings drop to 55, but no lower, to protect the pipes from freezing. This was based on testing done at Penn State U to cut commercial building costs. Dunno if it is applicable to a home though. Jon From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Sep 15 09:04:23 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 11:04:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? Message-ID: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> Hi Guys, Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You know, the cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer you into? I'm trying to help a lady friend inexpensively fix a broken rocker panel trim piece on a late model Buick, and GM wants $485 for this stupid piece of plastic! Seems like it should be easy enough to google but I've come up empty so far. -Thanks, Wayne From bjzwissler at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 09:46:27 2010 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 11:46:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Don't know about internet sources, but in my area the local auto body supply places (paint places) can hook you up with aftermarket parts. If its common enough somebody probably makes it and they can get it. Ben..... On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Wayne wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You know, the > cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer you into? > > I'm trying to help a lady friend inexpensively fix a broken rocker panel > trim piece on a late model Buick, and GM wants $485 for this stupid piece of > plastic! Seems like it should be easy enough to google but I've come up > empty so far. > > -Thanks, Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com From jblair1948 at cox.net Wed Sep 15 10:43:42 2010 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:43:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100915124218.045c3240@cox.net> At 11:04 AM 9/15/2010, Wayne wrote: >Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You know, the >cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer you into? Have you tried ebay. I've had good luck there getting radiator supports and bumper covers for my 95 Ford Taurus and a few other cars. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From mg_garage at comcast.net Wed Sep 15 15:00:07 2010 From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:00:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4C9133D7.5010906@comcast.net> You might try Schram in Pontiac Michigan. They have an extensive selection of good used GM parts...http://www.schramauto.com/ Wayne wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You > know, the cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer > you into? > > I'm trying to help a lady friend inexpensively fix a broken rocker > panel trim piece on a late model Buick, and GM wants $485 for this > stupid piece of plastic! Seems like it should be easy enough to > google but I've come up empty so far. > > -Thanks, Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mg_garage at comcast.net > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 5452 (20100915) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Sep 15 16:53:10 2010 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:53:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: <4C9133D7.5010906@comcast.net> References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com>,<4C9133D7.5010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: Give Certifit at try: http://www.certifit.com/default.aspx I learned about them from the body guy who is working on one of my Alpines. He told me the guys in the trade refer to them as "Sorta-fits". I have not bought any body panels from them (he says they almost always need a bit of tweaking), but did buy a rear view mirror and turn signal for my daughter's F250 from them and was happy with both. You could clearly tell that they quality was not up to the OEM standards, but both fit without difficulty and worked just fine. And at a fraction of the OEM price. I would not hesitate to use them again when I wasn't concerned about OEM quality. > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:00:07 -0400 > From: mg_garage at comcast.net > To: wmc_st at xxiii.com > CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? > > You might try Schram in Pontiac Michigan. They have an extensive > selection of good used GM parts...http://www.schramauto.com/ > > Wayne wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You > > know, the cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer > > you into? > > > > I'm trying to help a lady friend inexpensively fix a broken rocker > > panel trim piece on a late model Buick, and GM wants $485 for this > > stupid piece of plastic! Seems like it should be easy enough to > > google but I've come up empty so far. > > > > -Thanks, Wayne > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mg_garage at comcast.net > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > signature database 5452 (20100915) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From pat at hornesystemstx.com Wed Sep 15 17:44:05 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:44:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4C915A45.3060405@hornesystemstx.com> Wayne, Try www.rockauto.com. They have some really cheap prices. I've used them on several parts and been quite pleased with them. None of them, however, were body parts. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Wayne, On 9/15/2010 10:04 AM: > Hi Guys, > > Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You > know, the cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer > you into? > > I'm trying to help a lady friend inexpensively fix a broken rocker > panel trim piece on a late model Buick, and GM wants $485 for this > stupid piece of plastic! Seems like it should be easy enough to > google but I've come up empty so far. > > -Thanks, Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Sep 15 17:55:24 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:55:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> <4C9133D7.5010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: It's funny- "OEM" has become an antonym of itself. In places like Ebay, "OEM" actually means "knockoff". Wikipedia notes the irony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oem Doug On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > Give Certifit at try: http://www.certifit.com/default.aspx I learned about > them from the body guy who is working on one of my Alpines. He told me the > guys in the trade refer to them as "Sorta-fits". I have not bought any body > panels from them (he says they almost always need a bit of tweaking), but did > buy a rear view mirror and turn signal for my daughter's F250 from them and > was happy with both. You could clearly tell that they quality was not up to > the OEM standards, but both fit without difficulty and worked just fine. And > at a fraction of the OEM price. I would not hesitate to use them again when I > wasn't concerned about OEM quality. > >> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:00:07 -0400 >> From: mg_garage at comcast.net >> To: wmc_st at xxiii.com >> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? >> >> You might try Schram in Pontiac Michigan. They have an extensive >> selection of good used GM parts...http://www.schramauto.com/ >> >> Wayne wrote: >> > Hi Guys, >> > >> > Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You >> > know, the cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer >> > you into? >> > >> > I'm trying to help a lady friend inexpensively fix a broken rocker >> > panel trim piece on a late model Buick, and GM wants $485 for this >> > stupid piece of plastic! Seems like it should be easy enough to >> > google but I've come up empty so far. >> > >> > -Thanks, Wayne >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> > Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> > Unsubscribe/Manage: >> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mg_garage at comcast.net >> > >> > >> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> > signature database 5452 (20100915) __________ >> > >> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> > >> > http://www.eset.com >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 18:29:21 2010 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:29:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com> Message-ID: I'm also looking for a body panel for an 85 VW, and came across this site today: http://shermanparts.com/ecat/base/index.php I've also found it helpful to have a part number for the part you need and simply google that, and find some places online. I found decent quality body parts for my Subaru that way, and many VWs in the past as well. PJ > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 11:04:23 -0400 > From: wmc_st at xxiii.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? > > Hi Guys, > > Can anyone suggest a vendor for aftermarket auto body parts? You know, the cheap alternative stuff the insurance companies try to steer you into? > > I'm trying to help a lady friend inexpensively fix a broken rocker panel trim piece on a late model Buick, and GM wants $485 for this stupid piece of plastic! Seems like it should be easy enough to google but I've come up empty so far. > > -Thanks, Wayne > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Sep 15 19:30:13 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:30:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: References: <4C90E077.2050802@xxiii.com>,<4C9133D7.5010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C917325.9070400@xxiii.com> On 9/15/2010 6:53 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > Give Certifit at try: http://www.certifit.com/default.aspx I learned Thanks for the tips, but I'm still coming up empty. I've ordered from RockAuto before; they have no listings for body parts for it. Certifit has stuff like common metal panels and lamp assemblies but no trim. One of the junkyards lists 3 left-handers but only one right in a non-matching trim level. As many blue-haired Buick drivers as there are in this town, maybe one of the local yards has one? -Wayne From jibjib at att.net Wed Sep 15 20:16:50 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:16:50 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> Message-ID: <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> David S. is exactly correct. In a former home, I outfitted my electric backup, heat pump thermostat with an LED to let me know when the electric resistance heat went on and that's when I lit the wood stove. Something like that would let you inch it up as required to keep the resistance heat from coming on. Any chance you can set up the propane furnace to kick on instead of the electric resistance heat? That would be the ideal solution. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Scheidt Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 7:41 PM To: David C. Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Shop-talk] Heat pump night setback It's nonsense, as long as you don't cause the emergency heat to kick in. The magic of heat pumps is that they're more than 100% efficient[1]. Turning on the backup heat costs, with electric resistance backup, three or four times as much as heat from the heat pump; propane will be different numbers, depending on how efficient your furnace is, and what the relative cost of propane and electricity is. But the number of joules required to keep a house at 68F is higher than the number of joules required to let the house cool down overnight, and heat back to 68F. How low you can go without the backup heat depends on a whole lot of things. Probably biggest of them is how well insulated your horse is. If it's well insulated, without lots of air intrusion, the amount of heat required to raise the temperature will be less, as will be the temperature drop overnight, without heat. It'll also depend on what the outside temperature is, as the colder it is outside, the more heat you'll lose, and the less effective your heat pump will be (assuming you've got an air-source pump, and not a ground-source one). Depending on how fancy your thermostat is, there may be a way to lockout the backup heat. If you can do that, you can experiment with how big a setback you can put up with. Part of that will be whether you're willing to put up with a house that's chilly for a couple hours after the heat starts coming back. Depending on your house, and climate, and heat pump, you may well need the backup heat for the coldest part of the year. Air-source heat pumps don't work well below an air temperature of about 40 degrees, though modern ones are someone better, some working with a COP[1] of better than two down to 20F. Ground source pumps work better in cold weather, as the ground tends to be warmer. [1] They're not, of course. The energy comes from the air or the ground, depending on the heat source of your pump, but not somewhere you have to pay for. [2] Coefficient of performance; a measure of how efficient the system is. COP of 1 is 1 watt consumed for 1 watt of heat; CoP of 2 is 1 watt spent for 2 watts of heat, and so on. See point [1], -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From jem at milleredp.com Wed Sep 15 22:17:02 2010 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:17:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? Message-ID: <4C919A3E.7030300@milleredp.com> >> Give Certifit at try: http://www.certifit.com/default.aspx I learned > > Thanks for the tips, but I'm still coming up empty. > > I've ordered from RockAuto before; they have no listings for body parts > for it. Certifit has stuff like common metal panels and lamp assemblies > but no trim. One of the junkyards lists 3 left-handers but only one > right in a non-matching trim level. As many blue-haired Buick drivers as > there are in this town, maybe one of the local yards has one? Have you tried car-part.com? They might not list the specific part involved, but look up the thing it attaches to, find some yards that have that part, then give 'em a call. John. From jibjib at att.net Wed Sep 15 22:39:29 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:39:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aftermarket body parts vendors? In-Reply-To: <4C919A3E.7030300@milleredp.com> References: <4C919A3E.7030300@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <0CD7B5E796684309A32019D940CEE2B9@EntCent> I used to use a place called Goldwingr Saab parts. When I called for a replacement fuel filler door for my car, they asked not only what color, but condition too. Did I want flawless, a few barely noticeable scratches, or was visible scratching OK? The price varied with condition. Good used parts suppliers are out there. You just have to find them. Getting the panel in the right color would save a lot of cost too. Jack From jdrush at enter.net Thu Sep 16 00:07:10 2010 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 02:07:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> Message-ID: <4C91B40E.3010801@enter.net> On 9/15/2010 10:16 PM, Jack Brooks wrote: > Any chance you can set up the propane furnace to kick on instead of the > electric resistance heat? That would be the ideal solution. I got a brand new Honeywell that will allow me to lock out the heat pump and force the system to use propane exclusively at any outside temp I choose. I have it set for 25 degrees currently. Jon From rs1121 at earthlink.net Thu Sep 16 08:48:46 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:48:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> Message-ID: <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> At our new office I found out that the "emergency" heat came on when there was a more than 5 degree difference between setting and temperature. I thought it was based on the outside air temp only. I guess the thermostat is trying to get the space to the desired temp as fast as possible. We just pulled the wire going to the resistance grid to keep it from happening. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack Brooks Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:17 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: Heat pump night setback David S. is exactly correct. In a former home, I outfitted my electric backup, heat pump thermostat with an LED to let me know when the electric resistance heat went on and that's when I lit the wood stove. Something like that would let you inch it up as required to keep the resistance heat from coming on. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Sep 16 12:15:07 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:15:07 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> Message-ID: <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> > At our new office I found out that the "emergency" heat came on when > there > was a more than 5 degree difference between setting and temperature. I was checking some thermostats on-line, and that appears to be the way most older ones work. Seems like it would be trivial to make a more intelligent decision (like looking at the temperature rise over time and only cutting in the backup heat if the heat pump can't raise the temperature inside the house), but I didn't find any thermostats that worked that way. -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 12:54:07 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 14:54:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Randall wrote: >> At our new office I found out that the "emergency" heat came on when >> there >> was a more than 5 degree difference between setting and temperature. > > I was checking some thermostats on-line, and that appears to be the way most > older ones work. > > Seems like it would be trivial to make a more intelligent decision (like > looking at the temperature rise over time and only cutting in the backup > heat if the heat pump can't raise the temperature inside the house), but I > didn't find any thermostats that worked that way. I'm pretty sure white rodgers sell some that work like this, at least in principal. ( I know they make units that have an outside thermometer, and can inhibit the secondary heat if the temperature is above a a set point. (so you can set it to an outdoor temperature at which you know the heat pump will eventually reach the inside set point, even if it takes a long time.) ) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jblair1948 at cox.net Fri Sep 17 09:14:22 2010 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:14:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Bulk] Re: Heat pump night setback In-Reply-To: <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> At 02:15 PM 9/16/2010, Randall wrote: >> At our new office I found out that the "emergency" heat came on when >> there was a more than 5 degree difference between setting and >>temperature. >Seems like it would be trivial to make a more intelligent decision (like >looking at the temperature rise over time and only cutting in the backup >heat if the heat pump can't raise the temperature inside the house), but I >didn't find any thermostats that worked that way. That would take more intellegence than is in most thermostats, consiquently more cost. But in effect that is what is happening with the current thermostats. If you crank up the stat by more than about 2 deg. the stat thinks it can't keep up with the temp differential. It thinks it's real cold outside and the heat loss is not letting the heat applied raise the temperature. So it cuts on the aux. heat to help recover. I had oil then gas fired forced hot air in my 1st house. I could live confortably in the winter with the start set to about 68. But with the heat pump I have to set the stat to about 74 to 76 to start to feel confortable. I have had a heat pump in my house for the last 25 yrs. (Well actually I'm on my third one.) While they have gotten a lot better over the last 25 yrs, one bad thing about them is they blow relatively cool air (typically 88-92 deg). So even when they are on, and able to keep up, it feels cool. The registers in my house are in the ceiling. So during the winter the temp at the ceiling is say 74 but the floor will be 60. So you feet well be freezing when you are sitting around. A ceiling fan helps, but then its moving cool air around and you still feel cold. I put in gas log in the family room about 2 yrs ago. So now when we get cold, or the heat pump can't keep up, we just turn the logs on. This really heats up the family room and spreds out through the house being recycled by the heat pump. I'm not sure If this is really cost effective or not. Yes, the electric bill is lower, but now I'm paying an additional $30ish dollars per month for the 3 winter months. The raise in the electric bill would be about $40ish, so there is a monitary advantage, and a big PLUS for the added confort!!! John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From cavanadd at frontier.com Sun Sep 19 13:30:29 2010 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:30:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> Message-ID: <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> OK, I'll admit I haven't been paying attention. I know we talked about Harbor Freight tool cabinets a couple of months ago but I was in the middle of an ISP change and starting the new school year and I wasn't paying enough attention. Anyway, today's papers are full of ads for the 11 drawer roller cabinet for $139, which seems like a pretty good deal considering the list price (does ANYONE pay list price for anything from H.F.?) is $299 and the web price is $219. > http://www.harborfreight.com/11-drawer-roller-cabinet-67421.html Too bad I can't combine a 20% off coupon with it, too.... Anyway, what do you think? Thanks again for all the heat pump night setback answers. Later this year we can talk about solar panels. From kvacek at ameritech.net Sun Sep 19 14:22:39 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:22:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet Message-ID: <000701cb5838$690e2a60$3b2a7f20$@ameritech.net> If the sale price doesn't require a coupon, you CAN use a 20%-off coupon too - I've done it several times on bigger items. The limitation of the 20% coupon is usually that it can't be combined with other coupons. Don't know about using the coupon on the web - I think that's just a store thing. Even with the highest sales taxes in the world here (I wish I was exaggerating), I still go to the store rather than pay freight. Oh, for the good old days when everything at H-F had free shipping. Karl -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David C. Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 14:30 Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet Anyway, today's papers are full of ads for the 11 drawer roller cabinet for $139, which seems like a pretty good deal considering the list price (does ANYONE pay list price for anything from H.F.?) is $299 and the web price is $219. > http://www.harborfreight.com/11-drawer-roller-cabinet-67421.html Too bad I can't combine a 20% off coupon with it, too.... From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sun Sep 19 15:32:21 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:32:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet In-Reply-To: <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C968165.6090202@xxiii.com> On 9/19/2010 3:30 PM, David C. wrote: > 11 drawer roller cabinet for $139, which seems like a pretty good deal > considering the list price (does ANYONE pay list price for anything from > H.F.?) is $299 and the web price is $219. Meh. I'd pass on it. Only three drawers in the roll-away base, and that big wasted open space at the bottom. Are the top chests full-depth of the bottom? I'd hold out for a top-chest that is full-depth and something that doesn't have that big wasted void space underneath. The Sears boxen are available in similar price ranges, but with the features I'd like. Keep in mind - Christmas is coming in 3 months and there will be BIG ASS tool sales at Sears, Lowes, etc coming in the next few weeks. -Wayne From jblair1948 at cox.net Sun Sep 19 15:51:40 2010 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:51:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet In-Reply-To: <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100919174119.044b8e50@cox.net> At 03:30 PM 9/19/2010, David C. wrote: >...Anyway, today's papers are full of ads for the 11 drawer roller cabinet for >$139, which seems like a pretty good deal considering the list price (does >ANYONE pay list price for anything from H.F.?) is $299 and the web price is >$219. http://www.harborfreight.com/11-drawer-roller-cabinet-67421.html David, The 11 drawer is the total number of total drawers for the roller box, intermediate box, and top box. I can't believe you get all 3 boxes for $219! If you are looking for a starter or junk tool box, man that sounds like a deal to me. However, I agree with Wayne about the large open void in the bottom. I've got an old (25 yr old), cheap ($77) 2 piece - roller cabinet and 3 drawer top box, I got from Zayer's. It has the large void in the bottom also. I don't really like it much as you can't organize things too well. I through a lot of junk and my bulky circular saw in there. So you might want to see what is available from Sears or one of the other vendors. I have one of the large H.F. 13 drawer roller cabinets: http://www.harborfreight.com/13-drawer-red-industrial-quality-roller-cabinet-90320.html I got on sale. Now that one I really like. I do like the fact it has the one wide drawer at the top. I store all my socket set there. The deeper drawer on the bottom has my air tools in the large one, and a corded drill, multitool, and DA sander in the smaller deep drawer. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jdrush at enter.net Sun Sep 19 16:59:51 2010 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:59:51 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet In-Reply-To: <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C9695E7.3040802@enter.net> On 9/19/2010 3:30 PM, David C. wrote: > OK, I'll admit I haven't been paying attention. I know we talked about > Harbor Freight tool cabinets a couple of months ago but I was in the > middle of an ISP change and starting the new school year and I wasn't > paying enough attention. Anyway, today's papers are full of ads for the > 11 drawer roller cabinet for $139, which seems like a pretty good deal > considering the list price (does ANYONE pay list price for anything from > H.F.?) is $299 and the web price is $219. >> http://www.harborfreight.com/11-drawer-roller-cabinet-67421.html > > Too bad I can't combine a 20% off coupon with it, too.... It's not as heavy duty as some of their other boxes, such as the 5-drawer tool cart. I think the drawers are wimpy. You can try the 20% coupon, some stores will allow it, most won't. Jon From cavanadd at frontier.com Sun Sep 19 20:29:29 2010 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 19:29:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet In-Reply-To: <4C968165.6090202@xxiii.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> <4C968165.6090202@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4C96C709.2030404@frontier.com> Excellent point; I'll stop by HF this week and take a look at the cabinet on sale (coupon is good through mid November) then wait to see what the big box guys do. I was in Home Depot yesterday and they are already clearing out a big section for the upcoming holiday stuff. Yuck..... Wayne wrote: > Christmas is coming in 3 months and there will be BIG ASS tool sales at > Sears, Lowes, etc coming in the next few weeks. From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Sep 20 06:29:14 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:29:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] H.F. tool cabinet In-Reply-To: <4C96C709.2030404@frontier.com> References: <4C9025A8.9000406@frontier.com> <48352F10BACD4B73BE516E0C8539246D@EntCent> <00c501cb55ae$448071d0$cd815570$@net> <2eb501cb55cb$18fbfa80$4af3ef80$@rr.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100917105751.045dfc30@cox.net> <4C9664D5.6080400@frontier.com> <4C968165.6090202@xxiii.com> <4C96C709.2030404@frontier.com> Message-ID: <002601cb58bf$7064c080$512e4180$@ameritech.net> If you want Sears boxes, make sure to join the Craftsman Club. Last year they had a Black Friday morning Craftsman-Club-only special and I got a nice 3-piece set (Quiet-Glide, not ball bearing) for $289. Regular price on those pieces totals about $700. No open spaces, no split drawers. The top and intermediate are only the regular (12"?) depth, not the full depth of the bottom cabinet like the best boxes are. Karl -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David C. Excellent point; I'll stop by HF this week and take a look at the cabinet on sale (coupon is good through mid November) then wait to see what the big box guys do. I was in Home Depot yesterday and they are already clearing out a big section for the upcoming holiday stuff. Yuck..... From jmitch at snet.net Wed Sep 22 11:43:01 2010 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:43:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] [6pack] TR6 air rail threads In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C6D2.5020803@snet.net> Message-ID: <4C9A4025.7060303@snet.net> Thanks, that helps. I guess my next question would be, are brake line connections a tapered thread? John Mitchell On 9/22/2010 12:54 PM, James_ TR6 wrote: > I replaced these myself years ago...I may have some spare piping with > flange nuts to check the threads. > I'll look around. > fyi, I believe i used basic brake line tubing and I cut/bent as needed > and the threads were perfectly matched > to what the auto store had in stock. > > -j > > > Does anyone know what size threads are on a late model TR6 air > > rail where it attaches to the exhaust manifold? I'm thinking it's a NPT > > thread, but I'm not real sure. I want to pick up a tap to chase the > > threads in the manifold after ceramic coating. Thanks for any help. > > John Mitchell 76TR6 72 Stag > > _______________________________________________ From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:47:05 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:47:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] [6pack] TR6 air rail threads In-Reply-To: <4C9A4025.7060303@snet.net> References: <4C98C6D2.5020803@snet.net> <4C9A4025.7060303@snet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 1:43 PM, John Mitchell wrote: > B Thanks, that helps. B I guess my next question would be, are brake line > connections a tapered thread? B John Mitchell > Which ones? Some are; most aren't. Pipes are flared (in one of several ways), and fittings designed to mate with the flare. I know not a thing about how trimupth engine airr rails are done. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From eric at megageek.com Thu Sep 23 07:12:47 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:12:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes Message-ID: Here is a topic I don't think we ever discussed before, so let me throw out my question. I have a few trailers (one car and one boat) that have brakes on them. One has a surge type brake (boat) and the other as an electric drum brake (car trailer.) Ideally, I'd love to convert them both to electric disc brakes (I already have brake controllers in both my trucks.) Here are my questions... For the trailer that already has electronic drum brakes, is this a hard conversion? For the boat trailer with the surge brakes, I realize that there is more to it then just replacing the pads. Is it possible to do the switch. Secondly, and most importantly, this boat trailer is used for saltwater. Are disc brakes the best option for salt water? Finally, can anyone point me to some sources (online) for trailer parts? Thanks. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From strovato at optonline.net Thu Sep 23 08:02:09 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:02:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes Message-ID: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have the same thing, a boat trailer with surge brakes and a car trailer with electric drum brakes. Everything I have read says that electric brakes are a bad idea on boat trailers. For example, from championtrailers.com: "Electric brakes are commonly used in utility and RV trailers. In this application, their painted automotive grade components provide excellent service, if properly installed, wired and maintained. In boat trailer application, however, they fare poorly. The wet launch boat trailer application, especially in salt water, normally destroys electric brakes within a season or two." As for the car trailer, I wouldn't bother, unless your brake system is in bad condition and needs to be replaced anyway. My drum brakes work well enough that I can't really see the change as being worth it. As for how to do it, it's easy. The axles have a flange on each end that the backing plate bolts to. Remove four bolts and the whole backing plate assembly comes off. Buy what you want and bolt it on. Converting the boat trailer to electric brakes, besides being a bad idea, is a bigger job. The coupler designed for the hydraulics would have to be replaced with a solid type. If your trailer has a flat four wire connector, it would have to be rewired with a round six or seven wire connector that includes a brake signal. I have used etrailers.com for a lot of parts. Even though I'm still annoyed that they sent me the wrong parts last time, I suppose that I would still recommend them. Their website also has a lot of articles and videos that answer a lot of questions. BTW, what kind of controllers are you running in your trucks? -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 09:12 AM 9/23/2010, eric at megageek.com wrote: >Here is a topic I don't think we ever discussed before, so let me throw >out my question. > >I have a few trailers (one car and one boat) that have brakes on them. One >has a surge type brake (boat) and the other as an electric drum brake (car >trailer.) > >Ideally, I'd love to convert them both to electric disc brakes (I already >have brake controllers in both my trucks.) Here are my questions... > >For the trailer that already has electronic drum brakes, is this a hard >conversion? > >For the boat trailer with the surge brakes, I realize that there is more >to it then just replacing the pads. Is it possible to do the switch. >Secondly, and most importantly, this boat trailer is used for saltwater. >Are disc brakes the best option for salt water? > >Finally, can anyone point me to some sources (online) for trailer parts? >Thanks. From pat at hornesystemstx.com Thu Sep 23 08:22:26 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:22:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9B62A2.2040503@hornesystemstx.com> See interspersed reply Thusly spake eric at megageek.com, On 9/23/2010 8:12 AM: > > > For the trailer that already has electronic drum brakes, is this a hard > conversion? There should be a square mount that the backing plate is bolted to. A disk setup can bolt to this also. > For the boat trailer with the surge brakes, I realize that there is more > to it then just replacing the pads. Is it possible to do the switch. > Secondly, and most importantly, this boat trailer is used for saltwater. > Are disc brakes the best option for salt water? If your axle has the square mount on it, then it is an easy addition. If it doesn't there are mounts that can be welded on. I do not know about salt water, but would think it would be much the same as drum brakes, which you already have. > Finally, can anyone point me to some sources (online) for trailer parts? > Thanks. I dealt with two folks on ebay that have been good for me, randpcarriages and droutdoorsupply. One of these folks should be able to fix you up. Peace, Pat > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From eric at megageek.com Thu Sep 23 08:22:27 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:22:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Steve asks... "BTW, what kind of controllers are you running in your trucks?" Well actually that is a funny question. Over the past month, I've added controllers to my truck and my dad's truck (he often uses the boat trailer and wants to be able to use my car trailer) and I removed a Drawtite control from a used mason dump that I bought. I wasn't sure of how well it was working. It seem to have a continuos 12v to the brake actuating wire. I used "Reliable" brand controller. The reason is that it has some of the nicest mounting possibilities (it doesn't need to be inline with the direction of travel of the vehicle.) They are sold by Tractor Supply, etc (but i found the best price at Wally World.) On my dad's truck I used a higher end model I got from the local auto parts store. I can't remember the brand, but it was about 150% more than the ones I got for my trucks. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Thu Sep 23 20:16:15 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:16:15 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal Message-ID: Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the trailer brakes.) I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and grime mix. TIA Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From cavanadd at frontier.com Thu Sep 23 20:36:17 2010 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:36:17 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9C0EA1.70901@frontier.com> Give the neighbor kid a can of rubbing compound and a promise of $20 or so when finished? eric at megageek.com wrote: > Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the > trailer brakes.) > > I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their > name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the > lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. > > What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and > grime mix. > > TIA > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From eltonclark at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 20:45:31 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:45:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Years ago, I watched a guy at a paint & Body shop do this chore with a bar of good ol' Lava soap . . He dipped it in water now and then and used a circular motion . . try first in a "safe" place.* *Tony* On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:16 PM, wrote: > Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the > trailer brakes.) > > I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their > name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the > lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. > > What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and > grime mix. > > TIA > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From pj_thomas at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 20:52:07 2010 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:52:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9C1257.4010308@comcast.net> On 9/23/2010 10:16 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the > trailer brakes.) > > I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their > name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the > lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. > > What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and > grime mix. > > TIA Even though I explicitly ask the dealer not to apply any stickers to a new car he did. Goofoff (sp?) worked. I've also heard wd40 works. Peter T. > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net From bspidell at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 21:01:58 2010 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:01:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9C14A6.8070305@comcast.net> I've used these with good results: http://www.eastwood.com/vinyl-eraser-and-arbor.html On 9/23/2010 7:16 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the > trailer brakes.) > > I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their > name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the > lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. > > What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and > grime mix. > > TIA > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From jdrush at enter.net Thu Sep 23 22:26:57 2010 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 00:26:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9C2891.4010706@enter.net> My wife just discovered that the Magic Eraser sponges worked great to take off old vinyl adhesive. Jon On 9/23/2010 10:16 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the > trailer brakes.) > > I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their > name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the > lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. > > What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and > grime mix. > > TIA > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdrush at enter.net From bk13 at earthlink.net Thu Sep 23 22:51:56 2010 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:51:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9C2E6C.901@earthlink.net> Mild options to try: 1. Gojo hand cleaner or similar - without pumice. Also works great cleaning rubber trim around doors, trunks on old cars. 2. Clay bar with quick detailer spray. Also works good taking off spray paint overspray. Mothers and Meguairs both have them. 3. Meguiar's Deep Crystal System Paint cleaner. Goes a long way to clean up neglected paint. Good luck. Brian On 9/23/2010 7:16 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the > trailer brakes.) > > I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their > name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the > lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. > > What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and > grime mix. > > TIA > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From obaa996 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 10:44:47 2010 From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <991823.52882.qm@web54301.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I went through this a bunch of times, removing the vinyl graphics off sportbike fairings before repair work/repaint. WD40 and a scraper (razor blade, or plastic if you want to preserve the paint), followed by a cleaner-type wax often takes it off. Next up the chain was 3M wax and adhesive remover or Goof-off. Then came acetone/laquer thinner, but you were definitely repainting after that... Good luck! BTW, next time, use a heat gun to soften up the sticker before peeling. With luck, the glue will come off with the sticker. On 9/23/2010 10:16 PM, eric at megageek.comwrote: > Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on > the trailer brakes.) > > I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had > their name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to > remove the lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. > > What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and > grime mix. > > TIA From strovato at optonline.net Fri Sep 24 11:26:56 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:26:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal Message-ID: <0L99001IUHUFLX90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> It sounds like these letters have been on the truck for many years. Keep in mind that paint fades, and the paint under the vinyl has been out of the sun. The ideas that have been proposed should help you remove any residue, but if the paint is less faded where the letters were, there's no amount of cleaning that's going to fix that. You could always cover it up with your own vinyl or magnetic sign. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 10:16 PM 9/23/2010, eric at megageek.com wrote: >Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the >trailer brakes.) > >I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their >name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the >lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. From strovato at optonline.net Fri Sep 24 11:37:54 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:37:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have a Draw-tite Activator brake controller. I bought it because I needed something, and the mounting flexibility was a plus. This controller applies an amount of braking selected by the operator, and the rate at which brake force is applied is also selected by the operator. It is adequate, but the brake application is never perfect. If I set it high enough to work properly at highway speed, I get too much braking when trying to gradually slow to a traffic light. Anyway, the other type of controller uses actual sensed G-force measurements to figure out the proper amount of trailer braking. This type usually wants to be straight and flat, to properly sense deceleration. But it should be better at applying the right amount of braking in varied conditions. I think I'm getting ready to give one of those a try. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From pethier at comcast.net Fri Sep 24 12:05:38 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:05:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <163482787.20408.1285350938827.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <564733962.20963.1285351538963.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I have a Hayes Genesis brake controller. It seems to work great, sense deceleration, and mount at the crazy angle needed to be easy to reach with my left hand and not smack my knee every time I enter or leave the Suburban. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Trovato" > To: eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:37:54 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes > > I have a Draw-tite Activator brake controller. I bought it because I > needed something, and the mounting flexibility was a plus. This > controller applies an amount of braking selected by the operator, and > the rate at which brake force is applied is also selected by the > operator. It is adequate, but the brake application is never > perfect. If I set it high enough to work properly at highway speed, > I get too much braking when trying to gradually slow to a traffic > light. Anyway, the other type of controller uses actual sensed > G-force measurements to figure out the proper amount of trailer > braking. This type usually wants to be straight and flat, to > properly sense deceleration. But it should be better at applying the > right amount of braking in varied conditions. I think I'm getting > ready to give one of those a try. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 24 13:08:32 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:08:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <032001cb5c1b$e458ac40$ad0a04c0$@rr.com> > I think I'm getting > ready to give one of those a try. I'm just curious, does no one use the kind that actually senses brake fluid pressure in the tow vehicle anymore? It's been a long time since I've towed with electric brakes, but it seemed like a good setup at the time. The controller knows exactly how hard you are pressing on the pedal, as opposed to an accelerometer that gets affected by hills, suspension travel, etc. -- Randall From strovato at optonline.net Fri Sep 24 13:13:19 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:13:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <032001cb5c1b$e458ac40$ad0a04c0$@rr.com> References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <032001cb5c1b$e458ac40$ad0a04c0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have never seen such a thing offered for sale. -Steve At 03:08 PM 9/24/2010, Randall wrote: >I'm just curious, does no one use the kind that actually senses brake fluid >pressure in the tow vehicle anymore? From eric at megageek.com Fri Sep 24 13:20:37 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:20:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: <0L99001IUHUFLX90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: OK, here is the follow up on the removal. First, I did use a heat gun to get the vinyl 80% off. It required a precise blend of heat to soften, but no enough to make it just break right away. Once off, I tried the WD40 and a plastic scrapper. It did very little. Then I wet the door really well, and used a razor blade in a scrapper. Work perfectly. I did chip the paint once or twice, but this is a work truck, so no great loss. Thanks for the help guys! (Andy yes, I'm putting my decal over it. My farm's name is "Moose Freerange Firewood: Where all the timbers are free range!" (seriously, that's it!) 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From pethier at comcast.net Fri Sep 24 13:50:35 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:50:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I guess it has gone out of style. I know that is what my father had back in the 1970s. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Trovato" > To: "Randall" , shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:13:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes > > I have never seen such a thing offered for sale. > > -Steve > > At 03:08 PM 9/24/2010, Randall wrote: > >I'm just curious, does no one use the kind that actually senses brake > fluid > >pressure in the tow vehicle anymore? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From pat at hornesystemstx.com Fri Sep 24 13:51:43 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:51:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <032001cb5c1b$e458ac40$ad0a04c0$@rr.com> <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4C9D014F.7090007@hornesystemstx.com> Austin Habitat for Humanity was given a 80 something truck that had one of those set ups on it. Nothing electronic, just a variable resistor that is controlled by either manual control or brake pressure. Seemed to work fine. I've never seen one for sale, but then again, I've never looked. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Steven Trovato, On 9/24/2010 2:13 PM: > I have never seen such a thing offered for sale. > > -Steve > > At 03:08 PM 9/24/2010, Randall wrote: >> I'm just curious, does no one use the kind that actually senses brake >> fluid >> pressure in the tow vehicle anymore? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 24 13:55:27 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:55:27 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <032001cb5c1b$e458ac40$ad0a04c0$@rr.com> <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <033801cb5c22$6fb70560$4f251020$@rr.com> Ah, maybe they are no longer available as an aftermarket device. I just found a comment on a BBS to that effect. http://tinyurl.com/2cn2un5 "Until the advent of anti-lock brake systems (ABS), most brake controllers were tapped directly into the hydraulic lines of the tow vehicle's on-board hydraulic-braking system." Apparently some vehicles do include them as original equipment, though. http://tinyurl.com/29yg2dm http://tinyurl.com/2bznffd -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 13:59:16 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:59:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:50 PM, wrote: > I guess it has gone out of style. B I know that is what my father had back in the 1970s. > Totally unsuitable for something with ABS, where there's a pump that changes fluid pressure to match the wheel's braking ability. accelerometers are dirt cheap these days, anyway, so electronic controllers would be common, as they're way easier to install. > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From rs1121 at earthlink.net Fri Sep 24 14:38:41 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:38:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: References: <0L99001IUHUFLX90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <002101cb5c28$7a205e60$6e611b20$@net> Free-Range Firewood! Man - that's a killer marketing idea - I may try that down here in Dallas. The metric crescent wrenches I use to sell pale in comparison! C-Ya Ron -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:21 PM To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] decal removal OK, here is the follow up on the removal. First, I did use a heat gun to get the vinyl 80% off. It required a precise blend of heat to soften, but no enough to make it just break right away. Once off, I tried the WD40 and a plastic scrapper. It did very little. Then I wet the door really well, and used a razor blade in a scrapper. Work perfectly. I did chip the paint once or twice, but this is a work truck, so no great loss. Thanks for the help guys! (Andy yes, I'm putting my decal over it. My farm's name is "Moose Freerange Firewood: Where all the timbers are free range!" (seriously, that's it!) 8>) From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 24 16:30:48 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:30:48 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <035f01cb5c38$25f70220$71e50660$@rr.com> > Totally unsuitable for something with ABS, where there's a pump that > changes fluid pressure to match the wheel's braking ability. Doesn't seem like a problem to me, since the trailer brakes should already be full on well before any of the tow vehicle wheels starts to slip. At worst, the controller would need a bit of memory, to keep the trailer brakes on during the short interval where the ABS has released the TV brakes. But at least on my car, the line between the MC and the ABS hydraulic control unit keeps the same pressure; the ABS controller just switches off the pressure to the wheel that is slipping. Since that matches the description on About.com, I'd guess that most of them work the same way. If there were actually a pump changing the pressure into the MC, the pedal would vibrate a LOT harder than it does. http://autorepair.about.com/od/glossary/a/def_ABS.htm -- Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 24 16:36:26 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:36:26 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <036001cb5c38$ecf42ba0$c6dc82e0$@rr.com> > accelerometers are dirt cheap these days, anyway, That's true, but the vehicle is subject to accelerations that do not indicate braking activity. Using an accelerometer to measure how hard the brakes are applied is like trying to judge whether the sun is up by whether you can read in your front room. It also takes time for the brakes to take effect, and more time to read the accelerometer and filter out vibration and whatnot. Yeah, sure, it might be only a dozen milliseconds, but that can be the difference between breaking someone's knees and not touching them. -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 18:16:37 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:16:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <035f01cb5c38$25f70220$71e50660$@rr.com> References: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <035f01cb5c38$25f70220$71e50660$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Randall wrote: >> Totally unsuitable for something with ABS, where there's a pump that >> changes fluid pressure to match the wheel's braking ability. > > Doesn't seem like a problem to me, since the trailer brakes should already be > full on well before any of the tow vehicle wheels starts to slip. B At worst, > the controller would need a bit of memory, to keep the trailer brakes on > during the short interval where the ABS has released the TV brakes. > > But at least on my car, the line between the MC and the ABS hydraulic control > unit keeps the same pressure; the ABS controller just switches off the > pressure to the wheel that is slipping. B Since that matches the description on > About.com, I'd guess that most of them work the same way. B If there were > actually a pump changing the pressure into the MC, the pedal would vibrate a > LOT harder than it does. You're right about the pressure between the MC and the ABS control unit. I hadn't thought about it hard enough. Here's the real problem: Find a piece of ice, so you've got zero traction, or very near it. Slam on your brakes. The pressure between the MC and the ABS control unit will hit its maximum value. The pressure in the wheel calipers will be, roughly, zero. What do you want the entirely unmodulated brakes in the trailer to do? I'd like them to do nothing; you seem to be arguing for maximum application of non functioning trailer brakes. Don't suggest pumping the brakes, ABS is far better at it then any human can be. Yes, ideally the trailer would have ABS, but I don't know of any small trailers that have them. (It's been required on semi-truck trailers for 10 years or so.) > > http://autorepair.about.com/od/glossary/a/def_ABS.htm > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 24 19:00:50 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:00:50 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <035f01cb5c38$25f70220$71e50660$@rr.com> Message-ID: <03a301cb5c4d$197227e0$4c5677a0$@rr.com> > Don't suggest pumping the brakes, ABS is far better at it then any > human can be. I won't. Pumping is _always_ a bad idea, except for people that don't know how to modulate (or brakes that are defective). To get the best braking, you want just enough brake that the tire develops a small amount of slip, rather than the on/off/on that you get with either ABS or pumping the pedal. But humans can be better than ABS at modulating (when conditions are the same at all 4 wheels), for maximum braking effectiveness. However, my old controller also had a lever sticking out which acted as an override. You could push it either way, to get either more or less braking from the trailer brakes. Personally, I try to avoid towing heavy trailers on ice, not to mention slamming on the brakes while doing it. If the situation did arise where I had to slam on the brakes, on ice, towing a trailer heavy enough to need brakes, I'd be looking for something soft to hit rather than hoping the ABS might save me. Ye canna change the laws of physicks, Jim. Interestingly enough, the NHTSA report basically says they can't tell if ABS on semi trailers does any actual good or not. "The amount of data is insufficient to draw conclusions about the effect of ABS on the trailer" http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811339.pdf -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 19:21:45 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:21:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <03a301cb5c4d$197227e0$4c5677a0$@rr.com> References: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <035f01cb5c38$25f70220$71e50660$@rr.com> <03a301cb5c4d$197227e0$4c5677a0$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Randall wrote: >> Don't suggest pumping the brakes, ABS is far better at it then any >> human can be. > > I won't. B Pumping is _always_ a bad idea, except for people that don't know > how to modulate (or brakes that are defective). B To get the best braking, > you want just enough brake that the tire develops a small amount of slip, > rather than the on/off/on that you get with either ABS or pumping the pedal. > But humans can be better than ABS at modulating (when conditions are the > same at all 4 wheels), for maximum braking effectiveness. People claim that they're better than a computer. I've never seen anyone present actual evidence. In particular, ABS systems can find the point at which the wheels are going to lock without overshooting; humans can't. > > However, my old controller also had a lever sticking out which acted as an > override. B You could push it either way, to get either more or less braking > from the trailer brakes. > > Personally, I try to avoid towing heavy trailers on ice Yeah, well, you live in California. Some of us live in places with weather. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From eltonclark at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 19:26:52 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:26:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal In-Reply-To: <002101cb5c28$7a205e60$6e611b20$@net> References: <0L99001IUHUFLX90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <002101cb5c28$7a205e60$6e611b20$@net> Message-ID: *Ron didn't mention his magnesium * *bar bells for saving freight cost, daylight fireworks and the personal portable parking meter!* *Tony* ** On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Ron Schmittou wrote: > Free-Range Firewood! Man - that's a killer marketing idea - I may try that > down here in Dallas. The metric crescent wrenches I use to sell pale in > comparison! > > > C-Ya > > Ron From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Sep 24 21:48:12 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:48:12 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: <0L9900MQ6MR3CCY0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><1340402760.26625.1285357834998.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><035f01cb5c38$25f70220$71e50660$@rr.com><03a301cb5c4d$197227e0$4c5677a0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <18c801cb5c64$7ac99f70$0301a8c0@randall> > In particular, ABS systems can find > the point at which the wheels are going to lock without overshooting; Not true, at least not of any system I've heard of. They actually sense when the wheel has locked, then as a binary function release the brake on that wheel until it is turning at road speed again. Then they turn the brake back on again, so the wheel locks again. The locking and unlocking is what causes all the noise when you get into the ABS. > Yeah, well, you live in California. Some of us live in > places with weather. I live less than 50 miles from a snow ski resort, so I'm not exactly a stranger to slick, steep roads. I just quit towing trailers with electric brakes once I bought a motorhome (and snow chains for it). Besides, I learned to drive (and tow a trailer) in northern Indiana, which could be reasonably said to have weather. The year I decided to move, there was a 27 foot snow drift on the road between Purdue and my parent's house, which the state left there for almost a week! I've also gotten stuck, trying to back a trailer with surge brakes (which are essentially a mechanical accelerometer) up a steep hill. Both backing up and facing down a hill look exactly like applying the brakes while going forward, to an accelerometer. Randall