From scott.hall at comcast.net Sun Oct 3 09:08:07 2010 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (Scott Hall) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:08:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights Message-ID: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> I'd like to use a string of LED lights I found at a box store as a closet light. Basically, I've run the string around the inside of the door so when you open the door a plunger switch turns on the lights. With the overhead light you could just see the top shelf, with the sting of lights, you'll at least be able to see (the front of, at least) all the shelves. I'm fine with all of if except the light string is wired with a 120v plug and has a fuse integral to it. I know I could just wire in an outlet and box, but that seems cludgy and, well...just too easy. So I was going to snip the cord, see if I could disassemble the plug and then wire the fuse inline. And then it occurred to me that those are probably either not LEDs like I thought (I'm pretty sure they are), or they might not be 120v LEDs and that plug might have more than just a fuse in it. That's the point at which I decided to ask here. Any advice? These are the 'lights in a vinyl rope' jobby. It's got a cap at the end that allows you to connect additional strings, I think. Came from Lowe's or Home Depot and you can get them in various colors. Thanks. Scott From scott.hall at comcast.net Sun Oct 3 10:10:10 2010 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:10:10 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal Message-ID: <175024003-1286122211-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1454841653-@bda945.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I'll second both the 3M Adhesive Remover--it gets almost anything off and it hasn't hurt the paint on anything I've used it on yet. And I'll second that the outline might be there from sun fade after you're done anyway. Lots of cars here have 'sticker permanency'. Scott ------Original Message------ From: eric at megageek.com Sender: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] decal removal Sent: Sep 23, 2010 10:16 PM Here is another question that I have. (BTW. thanks for the answers on the trailer brakes.) I just bought a mason dump truck from a landscape company. It had their name and number on the door in vinyl lettering. I was able to remove the lettering, but there is still an outline of the letters. What can I do to clean this up? It seems to be a raised adhesive and grime mix. TIA Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall at comcast.net From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Oct 3 11:01:37 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:01:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> References: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> Message-ID: Can you probe the wires to see if they are indeed 120V or if there is a a transformer involved? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > And then it occurred to me that those are probably either not LEDs like > I thought (I'm pretty sure they are), or they might not be 120v LEDs and > that plug might have more than just a fuse in it. From scott.hall at comcast.net Sun Oct 3 11:15:25 2010 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1485553627.788805.1286126125122.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I've got a multimeter--I can do it with that? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J Russell" To: "Scott Hall" , shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2010 1:01:37 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights Can you probe the wires to see if they are indeed 120V or if there is a a transformer involved? From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 11:27:02 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:27:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> References: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > B I'd like to use a string of LED lights I found at a box store as a closet > light. B Basically, I've run the string around the inside of the door so when > you open the door a plunger switch turns on the lights. B With the overhead > light you could just see the top shelf, with the sting of lights, you'll at > least be able to see (the front of, at least) all the shelves. > > I'm fine with all of if except the light string is wired with a 120v plug > and has a fuse integral to it. B I know I could just wire in an outlet and > box, but that seems cludgy and, well...just too easy. > > So I was going to snip the cord, see if I could disassemble the plug and > then wire the fuse inline. > > And then it occurred to me that those are probably either not LEDs like I > thought (I'm pretty sure they are), or they might not be 120v LEDs and that > plug might have more than just a fuse in it. > > That's the point at which I decided to ask here. > > Any advice? B These are the 'lights in a vinyl rope' jobby. B It's got a cap > at the end that allows you to connect additional strings, I think. B Came > from Lowe's or Home Depot and you can get them in various colors. The ones I've looked at (which were all christmas lights, but the principle is the same for all of the things I've seen) have between 25 and 50 leds (30 or 35 is most common; longer strings consist of multiple strands in (electrical, if not physical) parallel) hooked up in series, to produce suitable forward voltage, and a resistor to limit the current to non-led exploding values. There are a pair of wires that run the whole length of the strand, to provide 120 volts to the plug on the end. If you've got substantially fewer LEDs, you may have a more complicated circuit. You probably could cut the plug off, but I wouldn't. The quality of these things is not good, and they fail long before the diodes wear out. Much easier to unplug and replace than unwire and replace. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From scott.hall at comcast.net Sun Oct 3 11:33:22 2010 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:33:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: <354363712.789267.1286127132292.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <248111083.789304.1286127202086.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> That was the only reason I could think of to keep the plug--easy replace-ability when it fails. But the cord attached to the lights isn't long enough to get to a place I could wire a box without it being a pain, yet there's enough cord that if I wrap it up it'll be in the way (if I wire a box right there). I was going to wire the box, cut the cord and shorten it, but as long as I'm cutting it anyway... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "Scott Hall" Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2010 1:27:02 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > I'd like to use a string of LED lights I found at a box store as a closet > light. Basically, I've run the string around the inside of the door so when > you open the door a plunger switch turns on the lights. With the overhead > light you could just see the top shelf, with the sting of lights, you'll at > least be able to see (the front of, at least) all the shelves. > > I'm fine with all of if except the light string is wired with a 120v plug > and has a fuse integral to it. I know I could just wire in an outlet and > box, but that seems cludgy and, well...just too easy. > > So I was going to snip the cord, see if I could disassemble the plug and > then wire the fuse inline. > > And then it occurred to me that those are probably either not LEDs like I > thought (I'm pretty sure they are), or they might not be 120v LEDs and that > plug might have more than just a fuse in it. > > That's the point at which I decided to ask here. > > Any advice? These are the 'lights in a vinyl rope' jobby. It's got a cap > at the end that allows you to connect additional strings, I think. Came > from Lowe's or Home Depot and you can get them in various colors. The ones I've looked at (which were all christmas lights, but the principle is the same for all of the things I've seen) have between 25 and 50 leds (30 or 35 is most common; longer strings consist of multiple strands in (electrical, if not physical) parallel) hooked up in series, to produce suitable forward voltage, and a resistor to limit the current to non-led exploding values. There are a pair of wires that run the whole length of the strand, to provide 120 volts to the plug on the end. If you've got substantially fewer LEDs, you may have a more complicated circuit. You probably could cut the plug off, but I wouldn't. The quality of these things is not good, and they fail long before the diodes wear out. Much easier to unplug and replace than unwire and replace. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Oct 3 13:17:43 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 14:17:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: <248111083.789304.1286127202086.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <248111083.789304.1286127202086.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CA8D6D7.4010809@tx.rr.com> I go for quick and easy. I would buy a cheap extension cord, maybe $0.79 if you look around, then wire your switch into that cord and plug the lights into it. > That was the only reason I could think of to keep the plug--easy replace-ability when it fails. But the cord attached to the lights isn't long enough to get to a place I could wire a box without it being a pain, yet there's enough cord that if I wrap it up it'll be in the way (if I wire a box right there). From scott.hall at comcast.net Sun Oct 3 13:26:03 2010 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (Scott Hall) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 15:26:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: <4CA8D6D7.4010809@tx.rr.com> References: <248111083.789304.1286127202086.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4CA8D6D7.4010809@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4CA8D8CB.2000902@comcast.net> I may yet do that if I can't hard-wire this thing. But since I'd have to wire in a box in which I'd plug these in I'd rather just wire the lights themselves. On 10/3/2010 3:17 PM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > I go for quick and easy. I would buy a cheap extension cord, maybe > $0.79 if you look around, then wire your switch into that cord and > plug the lights into it. > >> That was the only reason I could think of to keep the plug--easy >> replace-ability when it fails. But the cord attached to the lights >> isn't long enough to get to a place I could wire a box without it >> being a pain, yet there's enough cord that if I wrap it up it'll be >> in the way (if I wire a box right there). From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:28:52 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:28:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: <4CA93112.9050409@comcast.net> References: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> <4CA93112.9050409@comcast.net> Message-ID: LEDs are diodes. They're not boring resistive devices. They pass current only one direction, and they do that when their "forward voltage" is exceeded. They cause a voltage drop equal to their forward voltage, and pass whatever current is flowing; if it's too high, they get fried. If you string a bunch in series, none of them pass current until the summed forward voltage is reached. So these things have a bunch of leds in series, with a combined forward voltage of 75 or so. You need a resistor to limit the current. Yes, this is less efficient than not having a resistor. On the other hand, it works, the leds don't get fried, and it's still way more efficient than an incandescent bulb. Forward voltages vary with the led types. little red and orange leds are about 2 V, blue, green and white tend around 3 V. Current capacity is around 20 mA. So we're talking 40 or 60 mW per diode. more power is wasted by the resistor as heat than is used by diodes. Typically, these strings are built so the combined forward voltage is about 70 to 85 volts. That keeps the led on about a third of the time. If you used enough leds that the forward voltage sum was 168 V (peak voltage on 120 AC) they'd be on a negligible amount of time, and you'd not get any light. So you either need a chain with a much lower forward voltage, and a resistor to control current, and accept the watt or two of power wastage (And it's actually less than that, because it's only a thirty odd percent duty cycle.), or you need a more complicated driver circuit and more complicated wiring, which would increase the cost to buy them a lot more than it would save in power over their lifetime. (You can make them brighter, though, which is why there are some fancy strings that work like this.) Led flashlights get away without an external current limiting resistor because they've got a big honking current limiting one in the battery. They also tend to use higher power drawing diodes. But better flashlights have driving circuits that provide both current and voltage regulation. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Mon Oct 4 19:38:53 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 20:38:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: References: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> <4CA93112.9050409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CAA81AD.2060101@tx.rr.com> Some of them do have resistors, it all depends on the LED that they are using and the battery configuration. The Luxeon and Cree LED's have forward voltages of around 4-4.5V and up. The cheapest of these that you can buy in stores run off of 3 AAA batteries, but as the batteries wear they can drop below the voltage required by the LED. You can't get a good LED flashlight with just 2 AA, C or D batteries because the voltage isn't high enough, unless there is a boost circuit, and that makes the light quite a bit more expensive. The new Maglite LED flashlights have a boost circuit, but they don't have a good means of dissipating heat so they are not as good as they could be. The small police-type flashlights that use a pair of 3V Lithium batteries sometimes have resistors, or sometimes they just drive the crap out of the LED to get a little more brightness, but again the good ones like Surefire have circuitry to maintain the voltage right where the LED wants it. > Led flashlights get away without an external current limiting resistor > because they've got a big honking current limiting one in the battery. > They also tend to use higher power drawing diodes. But better flashlights > have driving circuits that provide both current and voltage regulation. From pj_thomas at comcast.net Mon Oct 4 20:31:07 2010 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 22:31:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a string of LED lights In-Reply-To: References: <4CA89C57.9070902@comcast.net> <4CA93112.9050409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CAA8DEB.1010207@comcast.net> On 10/4/2010 9:28 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > LEDs are diodes. They're not boring resistive devices. They pass > current only one direction, and they do that when their "forward > voltage" is exceeded. Nor are they just boring diodes. The dissipate energy in the form of light and therefore have resistance. But you're correct they are not just simple resistors. > They cause a voltage drop equal to their > forward voltage, and pass whatever current is flowing; if it's too > high, they get fried. If you string a bunch in series, none of them > pass current until the summed forward voltage is reached. So these > things have a bunch of leds in series, with a combined forward voltage > of 75 or so. You need a resistor to limit the current. Yes, this is > less efficient than not having a resistor. On the other hand, it > works, the leds don't get fried, and it's still way more efficient > than an incandescent bulb. > > Forward voltages vary with the led types. little red and orange leds > are about 2 V, blue, green and white tend around 3 V. Current > capacity is around 20 mA. So we're talking 40 or 60 mW per diode. > more power is wasted by the resistor as heat than is used by diodes. > > Typically, these strings are built so the combined forward voltage is > about 70 to 85 volts. That keeps the led on about a third of the > time. If you used enough leds that the forward voltage sum was 168 V > (peak voltage on 120 AC) they'd be on a negligible amount of time, and > you'd not get any light. Can't say for sure if the strings I have resistors. Could be in the plug or the LEDS themselves. But there are 35 bulbs, if you assume 3.3 volts that's 115 volts total, about where you want them to light. The optimum limiting resistance at that voltage is zero. > So you either need a chain with a much lower > forward voltage, and a resistor to control current, and accept the > watt or two of power wastage (And it's actually less than that, > because it's only a thirty odd percent duty cycle.), or you need a > more complicated driver circuit and more complicated wiring, which > would increase the cost to buy them a lot more than it would save in > power over their lifetime. (You can make them brighter, though, which > is why there are some fancy strings that work like this.) Typically they don't brighten, but instead the on cycle is lengthen. > > Led flashlights get away without an external current limiting resistor > because they've got a big honking current limiting one in the battery. > They also tend to use higher power drawing diodes. But better flashlights > have driving circuits that provide both current and voltage regulation. From marka at maracing.com Tue Oct 5 13:01:29 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Steven Trovato wrote: > I have a Draw-tite Activator brake controller. I bought it because I needed > something, and the mounting flexibility was a plus. This controller applies > an amount of braking selected by the operator, and the rate at which brake > force is applied is also selected by the operator. It is adequate, but the > brake application is never perfect. If I set it high enough to work properly > at highway speed, I get too much braking when trying to gradually slow to a > traffic light. Anyway, the other type of controller uses actual sensed > G-force measurements to figure out the proper amount of trailer braking. > This type usually wants to be straight and flat, to properly sense > deceleration. But it should be better at applying the right amount of > braking in varied conditions. I think I'm getting ready to give one of those > a try. This is probably a pretty late reply and may have already been mentioned, but the short answer is to buy a Tekonsha Prodigy brake controller. Its proportional, doesn't need to be mounted flat (but may need to be mounted inline... Not sure, as I've done all mine that way anyway), and doesn't need to have a "level" set. It also has a nice digital read out that tells you how much voltage its sending back. Online you can find them for $100. Its not worth screwing with any other brake controller, IMHO. Mark From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Tue Oct 5 13:16:22 2010 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:16:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC646ECC9@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> I agree with Mark's endorsement of the Tekonsha Prodigy. It works great with my heavy car trailer and a lighter horse trailer. It's a giant step up from the others I have used. When I researched it on many forums, one person asked about the merits of installing a free hand-me-down controller versus buying the Tekonsha Prodigy. The replies were overwhelmingly in favor of spending the money - get it right the first time. The advantage of the digital control is that it allows you to preset the controller to the trailer weight. In my case, I have a setting for pulling the trailer empty and a different setting with a car in it. My wife has three settings, one empty, with one horse and two horses. That's much better than trial and error settings. It works fine at interstate speeds and at a slow crawl with in-town traffic. Gil Nashville From bob at texmog.com Wed Oct 6 16:02:03 2010 From: bob at texmog.com (bob at texmog.com) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 17:02:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling Message-ID: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> I'm redoing the back porch ceiling. Currently there is dry wall installed in 1963, which is holding up fairly well except for the paint which is peeling ( very dry warm climate). My wife wants bead board ( actually the 1/4 inch plywood that looks like bead board). My problem is that the defus who built it didn't always hit the mark installing the rafters on 16 inch centers. Some are off by up to an inch and the lap joint of the bead board needs to be under the joint. What say you to the following: Screw ax's to the rafters so that the 1X4 are all on 16 inch centers. Then Glue and nail the plywood bead board to the 1X4. Can I expect a problem with the 3/4" gap between the beadboard and sheetrock? Would that 3/4 " Styrofoam that is used behind vinyl siding work in that gap? Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Oct 6 16:42:43 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:42:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> Message-ID: What's "Holmes"? Doug On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:02 PM, wrote: > > > Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") > _______________________________________________ From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Wed Oct 6 17:19:18 2010 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:19:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, Message-ID: http://www.hgtv.com/holmes-on-homes/show/index.html He removes work that people have had done very poorly and does it right. All I can find around here are the people that do the type of work he has to fix! %^( Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:42:43 -0400 > From: doug at dougbraun.com > To: bob at texmog.com; Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling > > What's "Holmes"? > > Doug > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:02 PM, wrote: > > > > > > Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From marka at maracing.com Wed Oct 6 18:58:25 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, Message-ID: Howdy, If I understand the problem, it sounds to me like you could just nail 2x4 to the existing rafters to make up any variance from 16" on center, then nail the new ceiling to that. Am I missing something? Mark From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Wed Oct 6 21:26:24 2010 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 22:26:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, , , , Message-ID: That would mean that he would have to remove the drywall that is currently there to gain access to the ceiling joists. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:58:25 -0400 > From: marka at maracing.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling > > Howdy, > > If I understand the problem, it sounds to me like you could just nail 2x4 > to the existing rafters to make up any variance from 16" on center, then > nail the new ceiling to that. > > Am I missing something? > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com From pj_thomas at comcast.net Wed Oct 6 21:53:01 2010 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 23:53:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> Message-ID: <4CAD441D.9030507@comcast.net> On 10/6/2010 6:02 PM, bob at texmog.com wrote: > I'm redoing the back porch ceiling. Currently there is dry wall installed in > 1963, which is holding up fairly well except for the paint which is peeling > ( very dry warm climate). My wife wants bead board ( actually the 1/4 inch > plywood that looks like bead board). > > My problem is that the defus who built it didn't always hit the mark > installing the rafters on 16 inch centers. Some are off by up to an inch and > the lap joint of the bead board needs to be under the joint. > > What say you to the following: > > Screw ax's to the rafters so that the 1X4 are all on 16 inch centers. Then > Glue and nail the plywood bead board to the 1X4. > > Can I expect a problem with the 3/4" gap between the beadboard and > sheetrock? Would that 3/4 " Styrofoam that is used behind vinyl siding work > in that gap? > > Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") If the drywall is in good shape you could use Liquid Nails to glue the bead board to the drywall. This is how a lot of 1960's paneling is installed. Peter Thomas From rolds at plausa.com Thu Oct 7 07:08:40 2010 From: rolds at plausa.com (Ron Olds) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:08:40 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> Message-ID: Bob, When I did mine I used thin tongue and grove which was about 4' wide. I varnished the pieces before installing them. With the tongue and grove it doesn't matter that the ends line up with the rafters. Mine turned out excellent and looked great and requires no maintenance. Ronald Olds -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of bob at texmog.com Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 6:02 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling I'm redoing the back porch ceiling. Currently there is dry wall installed in 1963, which is holding up fairly well except for the paint which is peeling ( very dry warm climate). My wife wants bead board ( actually the 1/4 inch plywood that looks like bead board). My problem is that the defus who built it didn't always hit the mark installing the rafters on 16 inch centers. Some are off by up to an inch and the lap joint of the bead board needs to be under the joint. What say you to the following: Screw ax's to the rafters so that the 1X4 are all on 16 inch centers. Then Glue and nail the plywood bead board to the 1X4. Can I expect a problem with the 3/4" gap between the beadboard and sheetrock? Would that 3/4 " Styrofoam that is used behind vinyl siding work in that gap? Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rolds at plausa.com From pat at hornesystemstx.com Thu Oct 7 08:14:04 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:14:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> Message-ID: <4CADD5AC.5050609@hornesystemstx.com> Bob, As others have said, you can nail wood onto the joists to bring your spacing back to 16" centers, but there is another problem that needs to be dealt with. 1/4" plywood will sag when nailed on 16" centers\ over time, leaving you with a wavy ceiling. I would consider: - Nail 1x4's on 12" centers across the joists and block the joints where the bead board seams land. - Cover the ceiling with 1/2" plywood and glue/nail the bead board to the plywood. - If the existing drywall is not sagging, strip off as much paint as possible and nail/glue the bead board to it. These are in no particular order. Let us know what you decide on. Peace, Pat Thusly spake bob at texmog.com, On 10/6/2010 5:02 PM: > I'm redoing the back porch ceiling. Currently there is dry wall installed in > 1963, which is holding up fairly well except for the paint which is peeling > ( very dry warm climate). My wife wants bead board ( actually the 1/4 inch > plywood that looks like bead board). > > My problem is that the defus who built it didn't always hit the mark > installing the rafters on 16 inch centers. Some are off by up to an inch and > the lap joint of the bead board needs to be under the joint. > > What say you to the following: > > Screw ax's to the rafters so that the 1X4 are all on 16 inch centers. Then > Glue and nail the plywood bead board to the 1X4. > > Can I expect a problem with the 3/4" gap between the beadboard and > sheetrock? Would that 3/4 " Styrofoam that is used behind vinyl siding work > in that gap? > > Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From marka at maracing.com Thu Oct 7 09:04:45 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, , , , Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Rich White wrote: > That would mean that he would have to remove the drywall that is > currently there to gain access to the ceiling joists. Ah. That makes way more sense. :-) How much does this stuff you want to put up weigh? How many rafters are you going to miss? I'd be tempted to glue it and nail it, if it wasn't pretty heavy and you weren't going to miss too many rafters. Otherwise, if the stuff is designed to go directly onto studs, I wouldn't think there'd be a problem using 1x4 or whatever boards as lathes like you mentioned. If that wouldn't work because its flexible enough to sag, you'd need to glue it anyway, so I'd be back to option #1. Mark From watsonm05 at comcast.net Thu Oct 7 17:51:45 2010 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:51:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling <- now Holmes on Homes References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, Message-ID: <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Hi, All, I love watching this show for several reasons including seeing "good" examples of bad technique and all the tips on what's good technique for that particular situation. And I really like the image someone with strong ethics. Does anybody else hope that Mike Holmes is at least 10% as ethical in real life as he appears on TV? I too don't want anything I do to be a "good" bad example but I sure would blow a head gasket (in a good way) if it showed up as a good example. And to give Mike credit there are a shows where he calls out some part of the project (like the electrical or plumbing for example) as acceptable or (rarely) good quality work. Mark Watson (who really hopes Mike NEVER looks at the drywall I put up in the garage partly to get the experience of taping & mudding joints). 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' <-- long term resto project 1965 Ford Falcon <-- shorter term (I hope!) repair project various other transportation pods > http://www.hgtv.com/holmes-on-homes/show/index.html > > He removes work that people have had done very poorly and does it right. > > All I can find around here are the people that do the type of work he has > to > fix! %^( > > Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA > '63 TR3B TCF587L > That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > >> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:42:43 -0400 >> From: doug at dougbraun.com >> To: bob at texmog.com; Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling >> >> What's "Holmes"? >> >> Doug >> >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:02 PM, wrote: >> > >> > Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") >> > _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ From ronnie.day at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:21:04 2010 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:21:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] POR-15 Dealers Message-ID: Anyone know where I can pickup POR-15 somewhere between Austin and DFW? We're replacing the 2 x 8 decking in our trailer and I want to spray the "pockets" at the front and back where the ends of the wood rests. -- Ron From jem at milleredp.com Thu Oct 7 18:49:16 2010 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 17:49:16 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] POR-15 Dealers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE6A8C.1070806@milleredp.com> On 10/7/2010 5:21 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: > Anyone know where I can pickup POR-15 somewhere between Austin and > DFW? We're replacing the 2 x 8 decking in our trailer and I want to > spray the "pockets" at the front and back where the ends of the wood > rests. Bear in mind that the 'real' POR-15 lasts about a week when exposed to sunlight. John. From trevor at boicey.com Thu Oct 7 19:17:10 2010 From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:17:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling <- now Holmes on Homes In-Reply-To: <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM>, <485F9F6F3863493AA7EFAD3A3D402C69@watsongxpejt9r> Message-ID: <4CAE7116.9080908@boicey.com> On 07/10/2010 7:51 PM, Mark Watson wrote: > Hi, All, > > I love watching this show for several reasons including seeing > "good" examples of bad technique and all the tips on what's good > technique for that particular situation. And I really like the image > someone with strong ethics. I had the odd experience of watching an episode of Holmes on Homes *IN THE ROOM* that he was fixing in the episode. It was a row house in the Cabbagetown area of Toronto. I think the episode title was some pun about cabbagetown, but a quick google didn't find it. It was fun to watch them ponder the tile layouts and so on, and look down and see in advance which one they chose. It was an addition to the back of the house, the original had all the typical junk he finds, extension cords in the walls instead of wiring, etc. From jandkstone99 at msn.com Thu Oct 7 19:58:38 2010 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 20:58:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] POR-15 Dealers In-Reply-To: <4CAE6A8C.1070806@milleredp.com> References: , <4CAE6A8C.1070806@milleredp.com> Message-ID: Give them a call at (800) 726-0459. They will refer you to a local dealer. In my case (St. Louis) the "dealer" is a guy who sells it out of his garage, but that works just fine. > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:49:16 -0700 > From: jem at milleredp.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] POR-15 Dealers > > On 10/7/2010 5:21 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: > > Anyone know where I can pickup POR-15 somewhere between Austin and > > DFW? We're replacing the 2 x 8 decking in our trailer and I want to > > spray the "pockets" at the front and back where the ends of the wood > > rests. > > Bear in mind that the 'real' POR-15 lasts about a week when exposed to > sunlight. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com From tputland at charter.net Fri Oct 8 05:17:38 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 7:17:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] POR-15 Dealers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20101008071738.3FW8V.2351154.root@mp16> I always order right from them. The stuff is expensive enough as it is without putting in a middle man. But don't try to use their website. The ordering process is a PITA and the password recovery process flat doesn't work. At least it has never worked for me. (I know damn well what i used as my PW, but can never get it to work.) Tim Dairyland Datsuns ---- Ronnie Day wrote: ============= Anyone know where I can pickup POR-15 somewhere between Austin and DFW? We're replacing the 2 x 8 decking in our trailer and I want to spray the "pockets" at the front and back where the ends of the wood rests. -- Ron _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From rs1121 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 8 11:54:52 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:54:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: <4CADD5AC.5050609@hornesystemstx.com> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> <4CADD5AC.5050609@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <01b001cb6711$ea714d70$bf53e850$@net> Unless you like the ripple effect - you will need to glue the back even if you nail it. As below strip as much paint of the drywall then you can paint the backside and nail in place. Regular cheap paint works for this instead of a heavy adhesive that may not spread evenly - just make sure the drywall is exposed enough for the moisture from the paint to absorb into it. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Pat Horne Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 9:14 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net; bob at texmog.com Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling Bob, As others have said, you can nail wood onto the joists to bring your spacing back to 16" centers, but there is another problem that needs to be dealt with. 1/4" plywood will sag when nailed on 16" centers\ over time, leaving you with a wavy ceiling. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 07:21:26 2010 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:21:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Porch Ceiling In-Reply-To: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> References: <8F19A7D8DFC5441397A556ED5F4990FE@CARROOM> Message-ID: <4CB30F56.207@gmail.com> Bob, It's been a while, but I installed that sort of paneling in a bathroom a few years ago. I remember some of the joints weren't on a stud, and it turned out okay. I just sunk the nail and filled and painted. The joints looked fine. Although that may have just been dumb luck--that stuff was really thin and it seemed like if I really wanted it perfectly flat (and good-looking) I had to nail a lot more than they told me to, which is what I did. Turned out fine, just took longer than I thought. Scott On 10/6/2010 6:02 PM, bob at texmog.com wrote: > I'm redoing the back porch ceiling. Currently there is dry wall installed in > 1963, which is holding up fairly well except for the paint which is peeling > ( very dry warm climate). My wife wants bead board ( actually the 1/4 inch > plywood that looks like bead board). > > My problem is that the defus who built it didn't always hit the mark > installing the rafters on 16 inch centers. Some are off by up to an inch and > the lap joint of the bead board needs to be under the joint. > > What say you to the following: > > Screw ax's to the rafters so that the 1X4 are all on 16 inch centers. Then > Glue and nail the plywood bead board to the 1X4. > > Can I expect a problem with the 3/4" gap between the beadboard and > sheetrock? Would that 3/4 " Styrofoam that is used behind vinyl siding work > in that gap? > > Bob Nogueira ( Who doesn't want to see any of his work on "Holmes") From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 07:31:41 2010 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:31:41 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers Message-ID: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> Because the truck is moving out of the shop, so I can have the room it's taking up, and because i know some of you are not just EEs, but actually apply it as well. I'd like to use a solar trickle charger on my F250 (diesel) to maintain the batteries over long period of un-use. I was about to buy the $30 trickle charger off Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-2017-Solar-Battery-Charger/dp/B000VHT9GS), but I wonder if the truck having two batteries means anything (like if I should get a bigger charger). Then it occurred to me that $30 might not buy a lot of charger, so I thought I'd throw it out to the list. Anybody keeping something with more than one battery topped up with a solar charger? Thanks, Scott From eric at megageek.com Mon Oct 11 07:27:08 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:27:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas fireplace Message-ID: OK, here is the background, a few years ago my parents removed their fireplace insert for a natural gas fireplace. It was professionally installed. they used if for most of the winter, then they noticed their entire ceiling in that room was black with soot. They called the installers who came out and checked it. They could find nothing wrong and they blamed them for running it with the flue closed. That summer, they stripped the ceilings and repainted. The next winter, the same thing. My question, what can be causing this excess soot? Is there something with the burner? Is there a way to check the flame's efficiency? Is there some other place I should look to? Thanks! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Oct 11 08:12:29 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:12:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas fireplace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have a gas log 'fireplace' in our living room - sounds like what your parents have? Most of the houses in our neighborhood have the same unit (same builder). One neighbor had a soot problem because the unit installed in their house had been set up for a different fuel. We have propane so I don't recall what the 'wrong' fuel was but that might be something to investigate. FWIW, all the gas logs were 'professional installed', too... Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > My question, what can be causing this excess soot? Is there something > with the burner? Is there a way to check the flame's efficiency? From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Oct 11 08:14:25 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:14:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> While a solar charger will save a tiny amount of electricity, I've had excellent results from BatteryMinder products. They make a full line of computer chargers that monitor the battery's state of charge, top the battery up as necessary, will never overcharge, and also continually desulphate the battery. I've stretched extra years from batteries that were ready to be replaced before I started them on the BatteryMinder. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hall Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 08:32 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers I'd like to use a solar trickle charger on my F250 (diesel) to maintain the batteries over long period of un-use. I was about to buy the $30 trickle charger off Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-2017-Solar-Battery-Charger/dp/B000VHT9GS), From arvidj at visi.com Mon Oct 11 08:32:31 2010 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:32:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> I have also used the BatteryMinder products with great success on the MR2's and the GSXR. Having said that, I have a truck that I use every three to six months and it could use a batter maintainer but it is not in a location where an outlet is readily available. Therefore my question is "has anyone had any experience with the solar powered ones to either recommend it or say it is not worth the time or money given that a 120v outlet is not handy?" Thanks, Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" To: "'Scott Hall'" ; "'Shop Talk List'" Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers > While a solar charger will save a tiny amount of electricity, I've had > excellent results from BatteryMinder products. They make a full line of > computer chargers that monitor the battery's state of charge, top the > battery up as necessary, will never overcharge, and also continually > desulphate the battery. > > I've stretched extra years from batteries that were ready to be replaced > before I started them on the BatteryMinder. > > Karl From bjzwissler at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 08:39:07 2010 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:39:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas fireplace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've had a vent-free natural gas fireplace for more than 10 years. Run it a lot all winter. Never had any soot on the ceiling. So if installed properly I don't know why you'd have a problem, particularly if its vented. The one's designed for a vent run a little sootier to get a prettier flame. I'd check that the vent/chimney is clear/open. As mentioned, set up for wrong fuel could also be the problem. Ben.... On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Eric J Russell wrote: > We have a gas log 'fireplace' in our living room - sounds like what your > parents have? > > Most of the houses in our neighborhood have the same unit (same builder). > One neighbor had a soot problem because the unit installed in their house > had been set up for a different fuel. We have propane so I don't recall what > the 'wrong' fuel was but that might be something to investigate. > > FWIW, all the gas logs were 'professional installed', too... > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> My question, what can be causing this excess soot? Is there something >> with the burner? Is there a way to check the flame's efficiency? >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Mon Oct 11 08:59:10 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:59:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas fireplace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20101011145911.7QAQZ.188808.root@cdptpa-web27-z01> I am a professional something and I installed my own gas logs, so does that mean they are "professionally installed"? If the unit is creating soot, is there enough air going into the unit for adequate combustion? And if the soot is reaching the ceiling then it must be leaking from somewhere. If the exhaust is going out of the chimney, then air has to come in from somewhere to replace it, meaning it has to come into the house from outside and go from the house into the firebox. (I think some fireboxes can pull outside air in directly without it going through the house first.) > Most of the houses in our neighborhood have the same unit (same builder). > One neighbor had a soot problem because the unit installed in their house > had been set up for a different fuel. We have propane so I don't recall what > the 'wrong' fuel was but that might be something to investigate. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 11 09:59:44 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 08:59:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas fireplace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <070801cb695d$5290afc0$0301a8c0@randall> > We have propane so I > don't recall what > the 'wrong' fuel was Probably natural gas. It is normally used at a lower pressure than propane/LPG, and so requires a larger orifice. You've already gotten good suggestions on what to look for; only thing I can add is anything that would keep the chimney from 'drawing' properly. Maybe a bird's nest inside or possibly it was built wrong in the first place. If you can't find anything else, Google for "chimney draft problems" and read through a few articles. 'Normally' natural gas or propane/LPG is mixed with air first, and the resulting blue flame is sootless. But a fireplace burner needs to produce some soot to produce pretty yellow flames (the yellow is from the carbon particles glowing), so it's important that the chimney suck them away. Randall From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Oct 11 10:10:21 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:10:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> <7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <5C0089E8B27243D3B895D4CC87A3AA9A@EricJRussellPC> I held off on commenting because I haven't tried one in my Powerstroke pick up (two 12V batteries). I have used a cheap solar battery maintainer/charger I got at Harbor Freight for our MGB. (cheap & HF - isn't that redundant...?) I doubt it would do much to charge up a dead battery but it has helped keep a charged battery from losing its charge after the car sits for a few weeks. (before it'd crank slow after sitting for that long, now it cranks with normal vigor) So, my guess is for a dual battery set up it'd help if the batteries are well charged before you park the vehicle. A battery disconnect might also help to remove the small drain that radio memory draw (and computer memory if'n you gots that too) uses. The one I have connects via a cigarette lighter socket. Check if it remains connected to the battery with the ignition off. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arvid Jedlicka" To: "'Shop Talk List'" Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers >I have also used the BatteryMinder products with great success on the MR2's > and the GSXR. Having said that, I have a truck that I use every three to > six > months and it could use a batter maintainer but it is not in a location > where an outlet is readily available. > > Therefore my question is "has anyone had any experience with the solar > powered ones to either recommend it or say it is not worth the time or > money > given that a 120v outlet is not handy?" > > Thanks, > Arvid > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Vacek" > To: "'Scott Hall'" ; "'Shop Talk List'" > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers > > >> While a solar charger will save a tiny amount of electricity, I've had >> excellent results from BatteryMinder products. They make a full line of >> computer chargers that monitor the battery's state of charge, top the >> battery up as necessary, will never overcharge, and also continually >> desulphate the battery. >> >> I've stretched extra years from batteries that were ready to be replaced >> before I started them on the BatteryMinder. >> >> Karl > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ejrussell at mebtel.net > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3190 - Release Date: 10/11/10 02:34:00 From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 10:49:16 2010 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:49:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> <7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> Oh, yeah, I should have mentioned that. It's nowhere near an electric outlet, and in fact will spend a large portion of its life in airport parking lots waiting on me to get back from where ever it is I've gone, sometimes for weeks at a time. Hence the solar, and not a Battery Tender. And it will have brand spanking new batteries, since the last long sit seems to have finally killed the old ones. I've heard several good reviews on cars, I'm just wondering if the having second battery will somehow require more current to keep both healthy. I would think not, and that that extra battery is just to turn over the diesel in winter if I were to happen to live in North Dakota, but I'm not an electrical engineer, so... Scott On 10/11/2010 10:32 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I have also used the BatteryMinder products with great success on the > MR2's and the GSXR. Having said that, I have a truck that I use every > three to six months and it could use a batter maintainer but it is not > in a location where an outlet is readily available. > > Therefore my question is "has anyone had any experience with the solar > powered ones to either recommend it or say it is not worth the time or > money given that a 120v outlet is not handy?" > > Thanks, > Arvid > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" > To: "'Scott Hall'" ; "'Shop Talk List'" > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers > > >> While a solar charger will save a tiny amount of electricity, I've had >> excellent results from BatteryMinder products. They make a full line of >> computer chargers that monitor the battery's state of charge, top the >> battery up as necessary, will never overcharge, and also continually >> desulphate the battery. >> >> I've stretched extra years from batteries that were ready to be replaced >> before I started them on the BatteryMinder. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 11 11:02:15 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:02:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net><7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <071b01cb6966$0e8578c0$0301a8c0@randall> > I'm just wondering if the having second battery will > somehow require more current to keep both healthy. Short answer: Yes, it will. What you are fighting (mostly) is the battery's self-discharge rate. So assuming the two batteries are identical, it will take twice as much current/power to keep both of them charged. Randall From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 11:03:59 2010 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:03:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <071b01cb6966$0e8578c0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net><7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> <071b01cb6966$0e8578c0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4CB3437F.6080803@gmail.com> Well heck. Any suggestions, or specs to look for? On 10/11/2010 1:02 PM, Randall wrote: >> I'm just wondering if the having second battery will >> somehow require more current to keep both healthy. From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 11:07:57 2010 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:07:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <071b01cb6966$0e8578c0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net><7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> <071b01cb6966$0e8578c0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4CB3446D.60003@gmail.com> Hm. In attempt to keep it simple, can I just buy two and plug one into the power port (a cigarette lighter) and one into the actual cigarette lighter spot? Assuming, of course that I can manage to keep the cigarette lighter itself in an 'always on' state? On 10/11/2010 1:02 PM, Randall wrote: > Short answer: Yes, it will. What you are fighting (mostly) is the battery's > self-discharge rate. So assuming the two batteries are identical, it will > take twice as much current/power to keep both of them charged. From parkanzky at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 11:08:18 2010 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:08:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB3437F.6080803@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net><7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> <071b01cb6966$0e8578c0$0301a8c0@randall> <4CB3437F.6080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501cb6966$e7387a50$b5a96ef0$@com> You can always use two... But honestly, I'd expect one to keep up with two batteries just fine so long as the resting draw of the truck (radio, alarm, ecu, etc) is reasonably low. -Paul -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Scott Hall Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 1:04 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers Well heck. Any suggestions, or specs to look for? On 10/11/2010 1:02 PM, Randall wrote: >> I'm just wondering if the having second battery will >> somehow require more current to keep both healthy. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 11 11:34:24 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:34:24 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB3446D.60003@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net><7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com><4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> <071b01cb6966$0e8578c0$0301a8c0@randall> <4CB3446D.60003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <072001cb696a$8c958490$0301a8c0@randall> > Hm. In attempt to keep it simple, can I just buy two and plug one > into the power port (a cigarette lighter) and one into the actual > cigarette lighter spot? Assuming, of course that I can > manage to keep > the cigarette lighter itself in an 'always on' state? Sure, if that is "simpler". You could even buy one of those "Y" cables and run both panels into the same outlet, if that's what works for you. My guess is that you'll want bigger panels than the one you linked to on Amazon anyway. I couldn't find a rating given, but their "quickly starts your engine" claim borders on fraud IMO, so I'd look for something else that at least gives some indication of capacity. How much you need depends on a lot of things that are kind of hard to analyze; probably easiest is to just start with one big panel, then add a second if the first one isn't enough. Wikipedia estimates self-discharge for a starting wet lead-acid at 3-20% per month. If we assume 10% and ignore a whole bunch of other factors (and I didn't slip a digit somewhere), then you can add together the RC of your two batteries and multiply that by 1.25 to get (very) roughly the number of mAh per day you need. Of course, you'll need to add to that any parasitic drain from the truck (which you can measure). Then you have to convert whatever rating you get with the solar panel into average mAh per day for your conditions, which is a whole nother can of worms. Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Oct 11 11:42:12 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:42:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> <7634D2CB3FDB4F349F4CDCC948835F96@behavioral.com> <4CB3400C.6030806@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it is sitting in an airport parking lot, it will probably be getting the maximum possible amount of sunlight. So I bet it would work ok for two batteries. Doug On Oct 11, 2010 9:50 AM, "Scott Hall" wrote: > Oh, yeah, I should have mentioned that. It's nowhere near an electric > outlet, and in fact will spend a large portion of its life in airport > parking lots waiting on me to get back from where ever it is I've gone, > sometimes for weeks at a time. Hence the solar, and not a Battery Tender. > > And it will have brand spanking new batteries, since the last long sit > seems to have finally killed the old ones. I've heard several good > reviews on cars, I'm just wondering if the having second battery will > somehow require more current to keep both healthy. I would think not, > and that that extra battery is just to turn over the diesel in winter if > I were to happen to live in North Dakota, but I'm not an electrical > engineer, so... > > Scott > > On 10/11/2010 10:32 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: >> I have also used the BatteryMinder products with great success on the >> MR2's and the GSXR. Having said that, I have a truck that I use every >> three to six months and it could use a batter maintainer but it is not >> in a location where an outlet is readily available. >> >> Therefore my question is "has anyone had any experience with the solar >> powered ones to either recommend it or say it is not worth the time or >> money given that a 120v outlet is not handy?" >> >> Thanks, >> Arvid >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" >> To: "'Scott Hall'" ; "'Shop Talk List'" >> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:14 AM >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers >> >> >>> While a solar charger will save a tiny amount of electricity, I've had >>> excellent results from BatteryMinder products. They make a full line of >>> computer chargers that monitor the battery's state of charge, top the >>> battery up as necessary, will never overcharge, and also continually >>> desulphate the battery. >>> >>> I've stretched extra years from batteries that were ready to be replaced >>> before I started them on the BatteryMinder. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com From roadster at astound.net Mon Oct 11 14:21:19 2010 From: roadster at astound.net (Fred Katz) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:21:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> Be careful of using those solar chargers without a regulator. A friend of mine used a 1.8 watt on his F-150 truck, had a new battery just a few months old. After sitting in the sun for several months, it killed his battery. Over-charged it. He got a free replacement battery, but is now more careful by disconnecting the solar charger after a couple days use. I use a 5 watt solar charger, got it from HF on sale for $30, and don't leave it connected more than a day at a time. Fred On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:31 AM, Scott Hall wrote: > Because the truck is moving out of the shop, so I can have the room it's taking up, and because i know some of you are not just EEs, but actually apply it as well. > > I'd like to use a solar trickle charger on my F250 (diesel) to maintain the batteries over long period of un-use. I was about to buy the $30 trickle charger off Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-2017-Solar-Battery-Charger/dp/B000VHT9GS), but I wonder if the truck having two batteries means anything (like if I should get a bigger charger). Then it occurred to me that $30 might not buy a lot of charger, so I thought I'd throw it out to the list. Anybody keeping something with more than one battery topped up with a solar charger? > > Thanks, > > Scott > _______________________________________________ From marka at maracing.com Mon Oct 11 14:41:08 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Fred Katz wrote: > Be careful of using those solar chargers without a regulator. A friend > of mine used a 1.8 watt on his F-150 truck, had a new battery just a few > months old. After sitting in the sun for several months, it killed his > battery. Over-charged it. He got a free replacement battery, but is now > more careful by disconnecting the solar charger after a couple days use. > I use a 5 watt solar charger, got it from HF on sale for $30, and don't > leave it connected more than a day at a time. That pretty well sucks. Does some version exist that doesn't cost a billion dollars and you can just plug it into the cig. lighter and leave it there for a month with no ill effects? Mark From vlm at te-motorworks.com Mon Oct 11 15:15:41 2010 From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vincent Marshall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:15:41 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure what the intended budget is, but for about $30 you can add a charge controller, which gives you a setup that works like a regular battery charger. You can leave it connected all the time and it will maintain the charge without overcharging. -vin -- TE Labs computer internet. On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Fred Katz wrote: >> Be careful of using those solar chargers without a regulator. A friend of mine used a 1.8 watt on his F-150 truck, had a new battery just a few months old. After sitting in the sun for several months, it killed his battery. Over-charged it. He got a free replacement battery, but is now more careful by disconnecting the solar charger after a couple days use. I use a 5 watt solar charger, got it from HF on sale for $30, and don't leave it connected more than a day at a time. > > That pretty well sucks. > > Does some version exist that doesn't cost a billion dollars and you can just plug it into the cig. lighter and leave it there for a month with no ill effects? > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/vlm at te-motorworks.com From arvidj at visi.com Mon Oct 11 15:41:25 2010 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:41:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> Message-ID: <0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> It looks like the 15 watt panel for $80 ... http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-12-volt-solar-panel-96418.html has connectors that will plug right into the charger controller for $30 ... http://www.harborfreight.com/7-amp-solar-charge-regulator-96728.html and might be the ticket. Of course looking at the sales flyers and using 20% off coupons could be a big help. Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Andy" To: "Shop Talk List" Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers > Howdy, > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Fred Katz wrote: >> Be careful of using those solar chargers without a regulator. A friend of >> mine used a 1.8 watt on his F-150 truck, had a new battery just a few >> months old. After sitting in the sun for several months, it killed his >> battery. Over-charged it. He got a free replacement battery, but is now >> more careful by disconnecting the solar charger after a couple days use. >> I use a 5 watt solar charger, got it from HF on sale for $30, and don't >> leave it connected more than a day at a time. > > That pretty well sucks. > > Does some version exist that doesn't cost a billion dollars and you can > just plug it into the cig. lighter and leave it there for a month with no > ill effects? > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com From marka at maracing.com Mon Oct 11 15:51:15 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> <0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> Message-ID: Howdy, So here's my other dumb question... Can you just toss the panel on the dashboard and have it work, or does the light coming through the window screw up the solar power stuff? Mark On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > It looks like the 15 watt panel for $80 ... > > http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-12-volt-solar-panel-96418.html > > has connectors that will plug right into the charger controller for $30 ... > > http://www.harborfreight.com/7-amp-solar-charge-regulator-96728.html > > and might be the ticket. > > Of course looking at the sales flyers and using 20% off coupons could be a > big help. > > Arvid > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Andy" > To: "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:41 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers > > >> Howdy, >> >> On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Fred Katz wrote: >>> Be careful of using those solar chargers without a regulator. A friend of >>> mine used a 1.8 watt on his F-150 truck, had a new battery just a few >>> months old. After sitting in the sun for several months, it killed his >>> battery. Over-charged it. He got a free replacement battery, but is now >>> more careful by disconnecting the solar charger after a couple days use. I >>> use a 5 watt solar charger, got it from HF on sale for $30, and don't >>> leave it connected more than a day at a time. >> >> That pretty well sucks. >> >> Does some version exist that doesn't cost a billion dollars and you can >> just plug it into the cig. lighter and leave it there for a month with no >> ill effects? >> >> Mark >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj at visi.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Oct 11 16:13:15 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:13:15 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net><0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> Message-ID: I just put the solar charger on the dash (MGB). Don't know if window tints would affect it but windshields are not usually tinted. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > So here's my other dumb question... Can you just toss the panel on the > dashboard and have it work, or does the light coming through the window > screw up the solar power stuff? From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 11 16:16:52 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:16:52 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net><0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall> > So here's my other dumb question... Can you just toss the > panel on the > dashboard and have it work, It will work, although likely not as well as having the module in direct sunlight. Having the truck facing the right way, panel tilted for maximum effect and so on will help. Randall From marka at maracing.com Mon Oct 11 16:23:22 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net><0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> <076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Randall wrote: >> So here's my other dumb question... Can you just toss the >> panel on the >> dashboard and have it work, > > It will work, although likely not as well as having the module in direct > sunlight. Having the truck facing the right way, panel tilted for maximum > effect and so on will help. One more... What wattage do I want? Here's the real deal... My '06 Chevy van will slowly discharge a battery if let sit for a week or two. Presumably there's an actual small current draw somewhere that I haven't found (it might help to look for it.... :-), and I'm thinking I can just get one of these to toss on the dash because I'm lazy. Ease of use / no hassle is the biggest factor, followed by cost. Mark From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:09:05 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:09:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> <0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> <076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Randall wrote: > >>> So here's my other dumb question... Can you just toss the >>> panel on the >>> dashboard and have it work, >> >> It will work, although likely not as well as having the module in direct >> sunlight. B Having the truck facing the right way, panel tilted for maximum >> effect and so on will help. > > One more... What wattage do I want? > > Here's the real deal... My '06 Chevy van will slowly discharge a battery if > let sit for a week or two. B Presumably there's an actual small current draw > somewhere that I haven't found (it might help to look for it.... :-), and > I'm thinking I can just get one of these to toss on the dash because I'm > lazy. You need one bigger than your leak. But you've got a big leak. I'd figure out what causes it. > > Ease of use / no hassle is the biggest factor, followed by cost. > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 11 17:18:40 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:18:40 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net><0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com><076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <077401cb699a$a46391e0$0301a8c0@randall> > Here's the real deal... My '06 Chevy van will slowly > discharge a battery if let sit for a week or two. Seems like a lot of draw to me, to be balancing with a portable solar panel. Lessee, if we assume you are losing 50 Ah over 10 days; that's about 200ma or 2.4 watts. As a rough rule of thumb, you need an array that will supply about 10 times that much (peak), so a 24 watt array should do. This looks like the ticket: http://www.batterystuff.com/solar-chargers/PF25W.html But, it's over $300 and unfolds to 41 by 32 so it's not going to fit will on your dash (unless you have a really large dash). Of course a smaller array would still help, but eventually the battery would run down. Randall From jibjib at att.net Mon Oct 11 17:42:20 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:42:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders In-Reply-To: <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <433434.17782.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I've bought a few of the Harbor Freight Battery tenders ($12 or $8 on sale) and they seem to check out very well according to my Fluke VOM. Check them out. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:14 AM To: 'Scott Hall'; 'Shop Talk List' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers While a solar charger will save a tiny amount of electricity, I've had excellent results from BatteryMinder products. They make a full line of computer chargers that monitor the battery's state of charge, top the battery up as necessary, will never overcharge, and also continually desulphate the battery. I've stretched extra years from batteries that were ready to be replaced before I started them on the BatteryMinder. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hall Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 08:32 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers I'd like to use a solar trickle charger on my F250 (diesel) to maintain the batteries over long period of un-use. I was about to buy the $30 trickle charger off Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-2017-Solar-Battery-Charger/dp/B000VHT9GS), _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 11 18:10:44 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:10:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders In-Reply-To: <433434.17782.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> <433434.17782.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <078d01cb69a1$ea3e1760$0301a8c0@randall> > I've bought a few of the Harbor Freight Battery tenders ($12 > or $8 on sale) > and they seem to check out very well according to my Fluke VOM. I've had a few of those myself, and was not impressed. For one thing, they just regulate a constant voltage, rather than using a fallback like the BatteryMinder does. Over time, that will shorten the life of the battery. It also doesn't keep the battery fully charged. But more importantly, they have no current regulation. If you connect them to a discharged battery (in violation of the instructions), the wall wart overheats and fails. If you then replace the wall wart with one that will handle the increased current and repeat the experiment, the electronics module overheats, melts and fails. I see they do now offer a "3 stage" charger/maintainer, but it's somewhat more expensive. ($30 list/$15 sale) Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Oct 11 18:24:44 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:24:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders In-Reply-To: <078d01cb69a1$ea3e1760$0301a8c0@randall> References: <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> <433434.17782.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <078d01cb69a1$ea3e1760$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <00a301cb69a3$de99acb0$9bcd0610$@ameritech.net> And not to hijack the thread, but the HF unit does NOT desulphate - only a very few chargers do. For me that's as important as maintaining a charge. Batteries are expensive - it's nice to take good care of them painlessly. Karl > I've bought a few of the Harbor Freight Battery tenders ($12 or $8 on > sale) and they seem to check out very well according to my Fluke VOM. I've had a few of those myself, and was not impressed. For one thing, they just regulate a constant voltage, rather than using a fallback like the BatteryMinder does. Over time, that will shorten the life of the battery. It also doesn't keep the battery fully charged. But more importantly, they have no current regulation. If you connect them to a discharged battery (in violation of the instructions), the wall wart overheats and fails. If you then replace the wall wart with one that will handle the increased current and repeat the experiment, the electronics module overheats, melts and fails. I see they do now offer a "3 stage" charger/maintainer, but it's somewhat more expensive. ($30 list/$15 sale) Randall From jibjib at att.net Mon Oct 11 18:45:25 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:45:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders In-Reply-To: <00a301cb69a3$de99acb0$9bcd0610$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <370808.5230.qm@smtp101.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thanks guys. Learn something new every day. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:25 PM To: 'Shop Talk List' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders And not to hijack the thread, but the HF unit does NOT desulphate - only a very few chargers do. For me that's as important as maintaining a charge. Batteries are expensive - it's nice to take good care of them painlessly. Karl > I've bought a few of the Harbor Freight Battery tenders ($12 or $8 on > sale) and they seem to check out very well according to my Fluke VOM. I've had a few of those myself, and was not impressed. For one thing, they just regulate a constant voltage, rather than using a fallback like the BatteryMinder does. Over time, that will shorten the life of the battery. It also doesn't keep the battery fully charged. But more importantly, they have no current regulation. If you connect them to a discharged battery (in violation of the instructions), the wall wart overheats and fails. If you then replace the wall wart with one that will handle the increased current and repeat the experiment, the electronics module overheats, melts and fails. I see they do now offer a "3 stage" charger/maintainer, but it's somewhat more expensive. ($30 list/$15 sale) Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 06:02:29 2010 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:02:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders In-Reply-To: <00a301cb69a3$de99acb0$9bcd0610$@ameritech.net> References: <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> <433434.17782.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <078d01cb69a1$ea3e1760$0301a8c0@randall> <00a301cb69a3$de99acb0$9bcd0610$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <4CB44E55.3020808@gmail.com> Well that brings up a new tack--I'm about to buy two new batteries for the truck and I'd like them to last. Is this sulphating an issue that comes from sitting or being charged on a charger, or...? Basically, will sticking a solar charger on the truck for weeks at a time kill the batteries prematurely, and if so, what should I do to counteract that? Thanks. On 10/11/2010 8:24 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > And not to hijack the thread, but the HF unit does NOT desulphate - only a > very few chargers do. For me that's as important as maintaining a charge. > Batteries are expensive - it's nice to take good care of them painlessly. > > Karl > >> I've bought a few of the Harbor Freight Battery tenders ($12 or $8 on >> sale) and they seem to check out very well according to my Fluke VOM. > I've had a few of those myself, and was not impressed. For one thing, they > just regulate a constant voltage, rather than using a fallback like the > BatteryMinder does. Over time, that will shorten the life of the battery. > It also doesn't keep the battery fully charged. > > But more importantly, they have no current regulation. If you connect them > to a discharged battery (in violation of the instructions), the wall wart > overheats and fails. If you then replace the wall wart with one that will > handle the increased current and repeat the experiment, the electronics > module overheats, melts and fails. > > I see they do now offer a "3 stage" charger/maintainer, but it's somewhat > more expensive. ($30 list/$15 sale) > > Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 12 07:12:05 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:12:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders In-Reply-To: <4CB44E55.3020808@gmail.com> References: <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net> <433434.17782.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <078d01cb69a1$ea3e1760$0301a8c0@randall> <00a301cb69a3$de99acb0$9bcd0610$@ameritech.net> <4CB44E55.3020808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003501cb6a0f$118da3e0$34a8eba0$@ameritech.net> Sulphation occurs fastest when the battery is deeply discharged, but occurs under normal use as well, just more slowly. One option, given that you can't plug in a charger when you're parked for long periods, would be to add an onboard desulphation unit that works while driving. I don't know how many manufacturers make them - the only one with which I'm familiar is the one from BatteryMinder. And really, I have no interest in the company other than satisfaction with their products and their service. For instance, I absolutely killed a brand new recombinant gas airplane battery by leaving the master switch on for 5 days. The solenoid drained the battery absolutely flat, I couldn't get it to take any charge, and the battery manufacturer was pretty sure I could never reclaim the battery. Note to EE's - yes, I did try a plain, non-computer charger at first because computer chargers won't charge a battery that doesn't have high enough voltage. Not wanting to replace a new $200 battery without trying something, I called BatteryMinder and talked with their head tech guy. He told me how to properly recharge and condition the battery, and even called me back a couple of days later to see how it was coming along. 2 years later it's still fine. Karl -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net On Behalf Of Scott Hall Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders Well that brings up a new tack--I'm about to buy two new batteries for the truck and I'd like them to last. Is this sulphating an issue that comes from sitting or being charged on a charger, or...? From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net Tue Oct 12 07:48:01 2010 From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (frede.thomas2) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:48:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders Message-ID: <7574821.3073579.1286891281679.JavaMail.root@vznit170136> From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org Tue Oct 12 08:08:17 2010 From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:08:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Natural gas fireplace In-Reply-To: <070801cb695d$5290afc0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <070801cb695d$5290afc0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: Randall wrote: >anything that would keep the chimney from 'drawing' properly. I'll second that. We have a direct vent nat.gas fireplace that has small flapper vent on the north wall of our house about 3 feet above grade. When we bought the house the flap on the vent was jammed by a bush next to it and was not drawing properly. I trimmed back the bush and then had problems on windy days where the North wind would pressurize the vent and noticeably blow the flame in the fireplace. While that looked nice (like a camp fire), I was worried that the fumes were blowing into the house. I put up a sheet metal shield around the vent and haven't had a problem (or it hasn't been as windy [shrug]) My ideal fireplace would be: a completely sealed gas unit with a heat exchanger fan. Perhaps, one day we'll live somewhere long enough to make it worthwhile! - Ian Moving again... From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 12 09:04:51 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:04:51 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers - Now battery tenders In-Reply-To: <003501cb6a0f$118da3e0$34a8eba0$@ameritech.net> References: <000001cb694e$9c4934c0$d4db9e40$@ameritech.net><433434.17782.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><078d01cb69a1$ea3e1760$0301a8c0@randall><00a301cb69a3$de99acb0$9bcd0610$@ameritech.net><4CB44E55.3020808@gmail.com> <003501cb6a0f$118da3e0$34a8eba0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <083501cb6a1e$d2b324f0$0301a8c0@randall> > One option, given that you can't plug in a charger when > you're parked for > long periods, would be to add an onboard desulphation unit > that works while > driving. I don't know how many manufacturers make them - the > only one with > which I'm familiar is the one from BatteryMinder. There are also plans on the Internet for a DIY desulphator that would work either parked or driving. It draws energy from the battery at 12v, then makes a high voltage spike to feed back into the battery. One of those combined with a solar panel should work well. Google for "desulfator plans" (without the quotes). Here's another commercial version I found: http://www.ecrater.com/p/3762025/12volt-battery-desulfator Randall From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Oct 12 16:25:42 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 18:25:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] car parts pricing tip Message-ID: <4CB4E066.9050100@xxiii.com> Hey Guys, Have a little heads-up on car parts pricing that might help you. I looked up a part on Advance Auto's web site, then went to the local store to procure it. The price was $2 higher then it was online. Ok, a lousy $2, $17 vs $15 but hey, it's nearly 15% difference. So I ask the guy about the difference. He hits a single computer key and snooping on his computer screen I see it pop up with a yellow "warning" icon and some indication that it's "moderately higher priced than the competition." With out really asking he offers to match the price, and the screen pops up a list of all the "competition" including their own web site and prompts him to enter a code for which vendor the price match was made with. I couldn't catch it all on the screen, and he didn't want to share all their secrets, but it looked like they had instant price comparisons with other vendors, local and online, for the same part. So anyways, do your pricing homework and don't be afraid to haggle at Advance Auto ;) When I was a kid back in the 80s I used to haggle on stuff frequently and had pretty good success, but I've gotten old and lazy (and less poor) and with the rise of big-box stores don't try it so much any more. Like a boss said years ago, "you do not get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate" -Wayne From obaa996 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 17:04:41 2010 From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] scaffold clamps (?) pipe clamps (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <354620.8247.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm not sure what these things would be called, but I need some... :) Maybe you folks might know the name of what I'm looking for... I have a cargo rack on my SUV. It's an "expedition" rack, and is made of 1" round tubing. I want to attach my Yakima round bars to it, so I can use my existing Yakima attachments. However, I don't have anything to securely clamp the Yakima bars to the existing rack. I need something which will attach one round bar to another round bar. Ideally, I'd trim the Yakima bar flush, and the fitting to connect the bars will look like a "T". Otherwise, it'd be just as good to have the fitting look like a "+", with one bar sitting atop the other. I'd like the fittings to be secure (i.e. not easily removeable), and they'd need to manage some weight as well. I'm sure such things exist. I think I've seen fittings similar to what I'm looking for used to hold together building scaffoldings, and I'm positive I've seen such things at Harbor Freight (albeit years ago in a clearance bin.... doh!). If any of you know what these things are called, I'd appreciate it if you let me know. Thanks, Mike From mbarre at juno.com Tue Oct 12 18:12:05 2010 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 00:12:05 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] car parts pricing tip Message-ID: <20101012.201205.29531.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> As far as Advance goes, they also seem to be running near continuous discounts for online buying. Anywhere from 15 to 40%. They have come a long way with their online buying. I can usually get a stock check of the local stores and that is how I have been getting most of my parts lately, order online for local pick-up. Matt ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Wayne To: Shop Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] car parts pricing tip Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 18:25:42 -0400 Hey Guys, Have a little heads-up on car parts pricing that might help you. I looked up a part on Advance Auto's web site, then went to the local store to procure it. The price was $2 higher then it was online. Ok, a lousy $2, $17 vs $15 but hey, it's nearly 15% difference. So I ask the guy about the difference. He hits a single computer key and snooping on his computer screen I see it pop up with a yellow "warning" icon and some indication that it's "moderately higher priced than the competition." With out really asking he offers to match the price, and the screen pops up a list of all the "competition" including their own web site and prompts him to enter a code for which vendor the price match was made with. I couldn't catch it all on the screen, and he didn't want to share all their secrets, but it looked like they had instant price comparisons with other vendors, local and online, for the same part. So anyways, do your pricing homework and don't be afraid to haggle at Advance Auto ;) When I was a kid back in the 80s I used to haggle on stuff frequently and had pretty good success, but I've gotten old and lazy (and less poor) and with the rise of big-box stores don't try it so much any more. Like a boss said years ago, "you do not get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate" -Wayne _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mbarre at juno.com ____________________________________________________________ HR Masters Degree Online Earn Your Master's Degree in Human Resources Development - 100% Online http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cb4f99873e32226e9st06vuc From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Oct 12 19:03:35 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 21:03:35 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] car parts pricing tip In-Reply-To: <20101012.201205.29531.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> References: <20101012.201205.29531.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <4CB50567.8060902@xxiii.com> On 10/12/2010 8:12 PM, Matt wrote: > As far as Advance goes, they also seem to be running near continuous discounts for online buying. > ..... most of my parts lately, order online for local pick-up. Yeah, that works well too! I'd seen it online but wasn't sure if the good ol' local boys at the store were really in the loop on the whole process. Thought it might turn out to be more of a hassle than just going in and buying. Last Friday a lady friend at work needed a battery for her BMW. $156, but Advance had a 20% off ANYTHING online. Ka-ching! $31 off :) The sotre manager actually balked at handing it over so cheaply. -Wayne From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 12 19:08:36 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:08:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] scaffold clamps (?) pipe clamps (?) In-Reply-To: <354620.8247.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <354620.8247.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201cb6a73$2a5814f0$7f083ed0$@ameritech.net> Sounds like you're looking for Nu-Rail fittings or Kee-Klamps, but I'm not sure how small they come. And they're usually made in sizes to fit schedule 40 pipe, meaning you may or may not be able to get by with 3/4" fittings. Also - they use a setscrew to secure themselves. That will dig into your car's roof rack and leave permanent marks unless you use plastic screws or plastic-tipped screws, or perhaps you could drop a small pellet of some plastic material into the screw hole and then tighten the screw onto it. Karl -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Obaa Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 18:05 To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] scaffold clamps (?) pipe clamps (?) I'm not sure what these things would be called, but I need some... :) Maybe you folks might know the name of what I'm looking for... I have a cargo rack on my SUV. It's an "expedition" rack, and is made of 1" round tubing. I want to attach my Yakima round bars to it, so I can use my existing Yakima attachments. However, I don't have anything to securely clamp the Yakima bars to the existing rack. I need something which will attach one round bar to another round bar. Ideally, I'd trim the Yakima bar flush, and the fitting to connect the bars will look like a "T". Otherwise, it'd be just as good to have the fitting look like a "+", with one bar sitting atop the other. I'd like the fittings to be secure (i.e. not easily removeable), and they'd need to manage some weight as well. I'm sure such things exist. I think I've seen fittings similar to what I'm looking for used to hold together building scaffoldings, and I'm positive I've seen such things at Harbor Freight (albeit years ago in a clearance bin.... doh!). If any of you know what these things are called, I'd appreciate it if you let me know. Thanks, Mike From obaa996 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 13 09:59:48 2010 From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] scaffold clamps (?) pipe clamps (?) In-Reply-To: <003201cb6a73$2a5814f0$7f083ed0$@ameritech.net> References: <354620.8247.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <003201cb6a73$2a5814f0$7f083ed0$@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <128984.72619.qm@web54306.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Karl. The Kee-Klamps look like what I need. Off I go to find some... Thanks! Mike ________________________________ From: Karl Vacek To: Obaa ; shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 6:08:36 PM Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] scaffold clamps (?) pipe clamps (?) Sounds like you're looking for Nu-Rail fittings or Kee-Klamps, but I'm not sure how small they come. And they're usually made in sizes to fit schedule 40 pipe, meaning you may or may not be able to get by with 3/4" fittings. Also - they use a setscrew to secure themselves. That will dig into your car's roof rack and leave permanent marks unless you use plastic screws or plastic-tipped screws, or perhaps you could drop a small pellet of some plastic material into the screw hole and then tighten the screw onto it. Karl -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Obaa Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 18:05 To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] scaffold clamps (?) pipe clamps (?) I'm not sure what these things would be called, but I need some... :) Maybe you folks might know the name of what I'm looking for... I have a cargo rack on my SUV. It's an "expedition" rack, and is made of 1" round tubing. I want to attach my Yakima round bars to it, so I can use my existing Yakima attachments. However, I don't have anything to securely clamp the Yakima bars to the existing rack. I need something which will attach one round bar to another round bar. Ideally, I'd trim the Yakima bar flush, and the fitting to connect the bars will look like a "T". Otherwise, it'd be just as good to have the fitting look like a "+", with one bar sitting atop the other. I'd like the fittings to be secure (i.e. not easily removeable), and they'd need to manage some weight as well. I'm sure such things exist. I think I've seen fittings similar to what I'm looking for used to hold together building scaffoldings, and I'm positive I've seen such things at Harbor Freight (albeit years ago in a clearance bin.... doh!). If any of you know what these things are called, I'd appreciate it if you let me know. Thanks, Mike From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Oct 13 13:57:58 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:57:58 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] car parts pricing tip In-Reply-To: References: <4CB4E066.9050100@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4CB60F46.1000309@xxiii.com> On 10/13/2010 3:08 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > The prices for non-sale stuff at the advance auto nearest me used to > be 10 to 30% > higher than the one a few miles away, which is across the street from > an autozone. Wow, big difference. On lots of things I prefer to stick with OEM parts, and I've been surprised some of the local aftermarket guys are actually HIGHER priced than dealership parts, or especially dealers selling online at a discount (if you have a Nissan, http://courtesyparts.com is freakin' awesome (I have no affiliation other than a very pleased customer)) -Wayne From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Wed Oct 13 14:12:26 2010 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 13:12:26 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] car parts pricing tip In-Reply-To: <4CB60F46.1000309@xxiii.com> References: <4CB4E066.9050100@xxiii.com> <4CB60F46.1000309@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145B6864401B@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk- > bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wayne > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:58 PM > To: Shop Talk List > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] car parts pricing tip > > On 10/13/2010 3:08 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > > The prices for non-sale stuff at the advance auto nearest me used to > > be 10 to 30% > > higher than the one a few miles away, which is across the street from > > an autozone. > > Wow, big difference. On lots of things I prefer to stick with OEM > parts, and I've been surprised some of the local aftermarket guys are > actually HIGHER priced than dealership parts, or especially dealers > selling online at a discount (if you have a Nissan, > http://courtesyparts.com is freakin' awesome (I have no affiliation > other than a very pleased customer)) > > -Wayne Heck, even OEM parts can vary quite a bit depending on how you get them. I needed a clutch pedal sensor switch for my F350. I called three local dealers and they all had it in stock and the prices ranged from 79 to 179. I then went on line to ford.com and tried to buy online and pick up at one the local dealers and the price changed quite a bit depending on who I selected as my "preferred" dealer. Prices ranged from 49 to 99... I couldn't believe it so I called the dealer back again and said how come you are 49 online and 129 in person? They dropped the price to 99 but couldn't go further. So I hung up and purchased it online. When I picked it up at the same dealer the guy could not explain why the prices were all over the map. I know I could have probably gotten the part cheaper mail order via a non-OEM place but it was Sunday and I needed the truck on Monday. Stuart. From peterwmurray at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 07:20:07 2010 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:20:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <077401cb699a$a46391e0$0301a8c0@randall> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> <0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> <076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall> <077401cb699a$a46391e0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: My dad has had the 24V version of these battery desulphators in his airplane for the past 10 years to keep the batteries in good shape - and he has not had to replace them (despite the Cessna 310R sitting for weeks at a time in the T-hangar). >From Pulse Tech: http://www.batterystuff.com/solar-chargers/SP-5.html I also have the BatteryMinder 12V charger/desulphator in my garage. I have been very happy with it. -Peter On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Randall wrote: >> Here's the real deal... My '06 Chevy van will slowly >> discharge a battery if let sit for a week or two. > > Seems like a lot of draw to me, to be balancing with a portable solar panel. > > Lessee, if we assume you are losing 50 Ah over 10 days; that's about 200ma > or 2.4 watts. As a rough rule of thumb, you need an array that will supply > about 10 times that much (peak), so a 24 watt array should do. > > This looks like the ticket: > http://www.batterystuff.com/solar-chargers/PF25W.html > > But, it's over $300 and unfolds to 41 by 32 so it's not going to fit will on > your dash (unless you have a really large dash). > > Of course a smaller array would still help, but eventually the battery would > run down. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 09:07:38 2010 From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:07:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> <96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net> <0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com> <076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall> <077401cb699a$a46391e0$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4CB71CBA.5050807@gmail.com> Wow. That thing's pricey, but it's cheaper than two new batteries. It says it has a constant desulphation phase--can the EEs opine on whether that's marketing speak or legit (Randall's explanation is that a desulphator stores current then zaps the battery to do its thing). I also don't see anything on that page that says (to a moron--me) that it regulates the charge and so won't overcook the battery when it's topped off. Actually, I'll abdicate thought on this one. Is that the one I should buy? Better to listen to the guys that actually know what they're talking about--I loved this stuff in college, but now I just try to keep the smoke in the wires and not electrocuting me. Thanks. Scott On 10/14/2010 9:20 AM, Peter Murray wrote: > My dad has had the 24V version of these battery desulphators in his > airplane for the past 10 years to keep the batteries in good shape - > and he has not had to replace them (despite the Cessna 310R sitting > for weeks at a time in the T-hangar). > > > From Pulse Tech: http://www.batterystuff.com/solar-chargers/SP-5.html > > I also have the BatteryMinder 12V charger/desulphator in my garage. I > have been very happy with it. > > -Peter From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Oct 14 10:27:05 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:27:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB71CBA.5050807@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com><96DED36E-45BE-4A7B-B323-D860B3520114@astound.net><0A8BB11D481A4E629AD9D6650B0EC3EF@behavioral.com><076101cb6992$021e4130$0301a8c0@randall><077401cb699a$a46391e0$0301a8c0@randall> <4CB71CBA.5050807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0bed01cb6bbc$a409a3f0$0301a8c0@randall> > It says it has a constant desulphation phase--can the EEs opine on > whether that's marketing speak or legit Probably legit, as that's the way most of them seem to work. "Constant" meaning it repeats over and over of course. > I > also don't see anything on that page that says (to a > moron--me) that it > regulates the charge and so won't overcook the battery when > it's topped off. IMO it's basically self-limiting, due to limited power output and limited duty cycle (only supplies power when exposed to sunlight). Plus, the desulfating circuit must draw a certain amount of power itself. According to their data sheet at http://www.pulsetech.net/productinfo/product_sheets/SolarPulse_Specs.pdf the 2 watt version won't even keep up with a 20ma drain. > Is that the one I should buy? Sorry, no comment on that. I've not tried any of them as yet. Randall From battmain at yahoo.com Thu Oct 14 16:34:40 2010 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers In-Reply-To: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> References: <4CB311BD.9030806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <899263.90384.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have two of the Harbor Freight 5 watt solar units. They work. Only issue I have with them is the heat. They get moderately hot. Normally I use something non-combustible to keep them off the dash. I also have the battery minder charger/desulphator. They all work. The solar chargers are a little more convenient when you want to go the vehicle, get in, do what you want. With the battery minder, you need to roll up the extension cord too unless you don't mind leaving it sitting in the driveway. The desulphator worked to recover a few weak batteries I had, but they have been regulated to secondary use as they all went back to being too weak to start the vehicle as a primary battery Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Scott Hall To: Shop Talk List Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 9:31:41 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar car battery chargers Because the truck is moving out of the shop, so I can have the room it's taking up, and because i know some of you are not just EEs, but actually apply it as well. I'd like to use a solar trickle charger on my F250 (diesel) to maintain the batteries over long period of un-use. I was about to buy the $30 trickle charger off Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-2017-Solar-Battery-Charger/dp/B000VHT9GS), but I wonder if the truck having two batteries means anything (like if I should get a bigger charger). Then it occurred to me that $30 might not buy a lot of charger, so I thought I'd throw it out to the list. Anybody keeping something with more than one battery topped up with a solar charger? Thanks, Scott _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/battmain at yahoo.com From strovato at optonline.net Fri Oct 15 15:33:21 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:33:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0LAC002OUP97MPL0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> The topic that won't go away... Which controller do you have? I looked at etrailer.com and it seems there are several models. There's one 90185, then a "P2" 90885 and a "P3" 90195. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 03:01 PM 10/5/2010, Mark Andy wrote: >This is probably a pretty late reply and may have already been >mentioned, but the short answer is to buy a Tekonsha Prodigy brake >controller. Its proportional, doesn't need to be mounted flat (but >may need to be mounted inline... Not sure, as I've done all mine >that way anyway), and doesn't need to have a "level" set. It also >has a nice digital read out that tells you how much voltage its sending back. From strovato at optonline.net Fri Oct 15 15:55:38 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:55:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LAC002OUP97MPL0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0LAC008T6Q9AF5K0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Let me clarify. All the controllers I listed are called Tekonsha Prodigy. Apparently, there are different models. I'm trying to decide between them. -Steve At 05:40 PM 10/15/2010, Mark wrote: >I have a Tekonsha Prodigy and it has been flawless for about 8 years. > >Mark >Nashville From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Fri Oct 15 16:17:09 2010 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:17:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0LAC008T6Q9AF5K0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><0LAC002OUP97MPL0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LAC008T6Q9AF5K0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <2968A0FF9B6E7A4EB08A6B3FED65DBC646F45A@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> I have the predecessor model to the Prodigy P2 (90885) that includes the 'boost' feature that allows the user 'to apply more initial braking when towing heavier trailers.' It works very well when I'm towing my trailer that weighs about 10,000 pounds loaded. There appear to be different versions for Ford and GM trucks, probably due to the wiring harness. Gil Nashville. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Trovato Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:56 PM To: Mark Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes Let me clarify. All the controllers I listed are called Tekonsha Prodigy. Apparently, there are different models. I'm trying to decide between them. -Steve At 05:40 PM 10/15/2010, Mark wrote: >I have a Tekonsha Prodigy and it has been flawless for about 8 years. > >Mark >Nashville _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com From marka at maracing.com Fri Oct 15 20:51:20 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Electronic trailer brakes In-Reply-To: <0LAC002OUP97MPL0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0L9700GUKDN9PH10@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0L9900IHVIEFM280@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0LAC002OUP97MPL0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Howdy, Can't help with this one, I'm afraid. When I got mine there was only one model. Mine has the boost feature. Mark On Fri, 15 Oct 2010, Steven Trovato wrote: > The topic that won't go away... Which controller do you have? I looked at > etrailer.com and it seems there are several models. There's one 90185, then > a "P2" 90885 and a "P3" 90195. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > At 03:01 PM 10/5/2010, Mark Andy wrote: >> This is probably a pretty late reply and may have already been mentioned, >> but the short answer is to buy a Tekonsha Prodigy brake controller. Its >> proportional, doesn't need to be mounted flat (but may need to be mounted >> inline... Not sure, as I've done all mine that way anyway), and doesn't >> need to have a "level" set. It also has a nice digital read out that tells >> you how much voltage its sending back. From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sun Oct 17 08:31:28 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:31:28 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? Message-ID: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) A pickup truck isn't weathertight and rides like a truck, and more often than not I'll have things in there that don't want to be bounced around. I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of mortar, etc. Any thoughts? thanks, From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sun Oct 17 09:09:07 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:09:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4CBB1193.7000106@hornesystemstx.com> Jim, I've always been a big fan of having everything I might need for a job on site each and every time. My previous vehicle was a full size Dodge 3/4 ton van. It held everything I needed, but it was too tall for some places and it only got 12 MPG. When gas prices shot up I was in a position where we bought a new car and needed to get rid of one of our old ones. The choice was between the Dodge van and a 96 Ford Taurus wagon. We got rid of the van and now I only carry the tools I need every day in the wagon I have several trailers, including an enclosed trailer for tools and a 16' flat bed trailer for materials. I can carry a couple sheets of plywood or drywall on top along with long trim, etc, or if I need to haul a pile of materials I hitch up the flat bed trailer. If the Impreza is working fine, and not nearing the end of its life, I'd just get a trailer that will hold the sheet goods, or if you need to transport longer material often, a longer trailer may be right for you. In bad weather you can always tarp the load. A trailer is much cheaper than a replacement vehicle, and you don't have to haul around the extra weight and size when you don't need it. I wish I had gotten the Taurus years earlier! Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 10/17/2010 9:31 AM: > I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction > business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) > > A pickup truck isn't weathertight and rides like a truck, and more often than > not I'll have things in there that don't want to be bounced around. > > I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will > haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of > mortar, etc. Any thoughts? > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From jibjib at att.net Sun Oct 17 10:41:57 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:41:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <4CBB1193.7000106@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <666660.88355.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'll second the trailer thought. Between roof racks and a trailer, I've not had much use for anything more than a car for a long time, and don't have to suffer a mileage penalty everyday. A top end hitch, with a removable receiver and electricals for an Impreza will cost $500-700 if you drive it in for someone else to install, $250-400 if you do it yourself. Why drive a truck or minivan if it's not really what you want to drive every day? Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Pat Horne Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 8:09 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? Jim, I've always been a big fan of having everything I might need for a job on site each and every time. My previous vehicle was a full size Dodge 3/4 ton van. It held everything I needed, but it was too tall for some places and it only got 12 MPG. When gas prices shot up I was in a position where we bought a new car and needed to get rid of one of our old ones. The choice was between the Dodge van and a 96 Ford Taurus wagon. We got rid of the van and now I only carry the tools I need every day in the wagon I have several trailers, including an enclosed trailer for tools and a 16' flat bed trailer for materials. I can carry a couple sheets of plywood or drywall on top along with long trim, etc, or if I need to haul a pile of materials I hitch up the flat bed trailer. If the Impreza is working fine, and not nearing the end of its life, I'd just get a trailer that will hold the sheet goods, or if you need to transport longer material often, a longer trailer may be right for you. In bad weather you can always tarp the load. A trailer is much cheaper than a replacement vehicle, and you don't have to haul around the extra weight and size when you don't need it. I wish I had gotten the Taurus years earlier! Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 10/17/2010 9:31 AM: > I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction > business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) > > A pickup truck isn't weathertight and rides like a truck, and more often than > not I'll have things in there that don't want to be bounced around. > > I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will > haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of > mortar, etc. Any thoughts? > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From jblair1948 at cox.net Sun Oct 17 14:34:23 2010 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:34:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20101017160817.046b93b0@cox.net> At 10:31 AM 10/17/2010, you wrote: >I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction >business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) >... I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will >haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of >mortar, etc. Any thoughts? Jim, I agree with both Pat and Jack to some extent. I have both a taurus wagon and a Chrysler mini van. Both have the V6 engines and get pretty close to the same gas milage, 17 city 22-24 highway. I see a little more advantage to the mini van over the wagon, it has a larger/taller interior, so you can fit larger items, like a hot water heater or a TV. etc. Not to mention I can carry 7 people in the van an only 5 in the taurus. That being said, I really like the idea of a trailer in that if I have to move something dirty, like an engine, or dirt, I can put that in the trailer, and not ruin the interior of the van or wagon. As to the trailers, a lot depends on how much weight you plan on carrying. I really like the folding trailers that Harbor Freight and Northern sell, http://www.harborfreight.com/1195-lb-capacity-48-inch-x-96-inch-heavy-duty-foldable-utility-trailer-with-12-inch-wheels-90154.html You don't have to waste as much of your yard with a trailer parked, if you fold the trailer up. Although a friend that had one, used to leave it open all the time. He had a lot of space where he parked his cars and trailer. One thing to think about, if looking at a mini vans, the seats. The new thing is the "sto & go" seats, that fold into the floor of the mini vans. These are great!!!! My 95 Voyager has the old style bench seats, which are a real pain in the A$$ to take out of the van. They are heavy and and hard to manage by one person. Once out, you have the problem of storing the seats. The problem with the "sto & go" seating is that with the seats folded into the floor, you still have the weight of the seats. My guess is close to 200#, which reduces how much you can carry. I personally prefer my mini van to the taurus. So my vote would be for a mini van and a trailer. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jdinnis at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 14:40:44 2010 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:40:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: A minivan is good for cargo space, but it is not great at hauling heavy loads. Trailer towing or running near max gross weight often results in transmission failure. They are also usually a bit short on ground clearance. This makes loading easy, but means that in rough terrain you are more likely to scrape bottom. For my money, the Suburban is a great option. Hauls 4x8 plywood flat (at least the older one did, not sure about the new version). Hauls a heavy load and a big trailer, and will handle a lot more off-road conditions than the mini-van. The down-sides are the poorer gas mileage and the higher purchase price. But the Suburban is built a lot tougher than your average mini-van, and will probably last longer. On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction > business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) > > A pickup truck isn't weathertight and rides like a truck, and more often than > not I'll have things in there that don't want to be bounced around. > > I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will > haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of > mortar, etc. Any thoughts? > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Oct 17 15:02:29 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:02:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <4CBB1193.7000106@hornesystemstx.com> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <4CBB1193.7000106@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <4CBB6465.6070705@tx.rr.com> If your 4x8 sheets can tolerate being outside for the transport you could get a small van, station wagon or pickup with a topper. You put your tools and so forth inside, and get a rack on top to carry the 4x8 sheets. >> I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs >> will >> haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok >> with bags of >> mortar, etc. Any thoughts? From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sun Oct 17 15:06:11 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:06:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4CBB6543.8010304@hornesystemstx.com> Another thing I have done when I needed to transport 16' pieces of trim is to tie my 32' extension ladder on top of the car and then tie the trim to the ladder. It makes a great, flat transport and doesn't require me to get the trailer out. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 10/17/2010 9:31 AM: > I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction > business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) > > A pickup truck isn't weathertight and rides like a truck, and more often than > not I'll have things in there that don't want to be bounced around. > > I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will > haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of > mortar, etc. Any thoughts? > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sun Oct 17 15:09:15 2010 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <300594.74429.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A GMC Savana heavy (or Chevy) 1/2 ton cargo van with a 4.3L V6 is tough to beat. It has 2,250 lb. payload, can pull a most any trailer, drives like a car, and mine (an '03) averages 18.5 mpg in mostly city driving (on trips it gets 20.5 mpg). It is my daily driver, and the only problems I have with it is that it is 6' 11" high and will not fit in most of the older parking structures (here in LA they are building the newer structures taller, at least on the first floor). I think the Dodge vans are much lower profile (I see them parked in parking structures my GMC will not fit). best, shook ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XHL 883 '07 Aprilia XSV 550 '03 GMC Cargo Van ________________________________ From: Jim Franklin To: shop-talk List Sent: Sun, October 17, 2010 7:31:28 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) A pickup truck isn't weathertight and rides like a truck, and more often than not I'll have things in there that don't want to be bounced around. I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of mortar, etc. Any thoughts? thanks, _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at pacbell.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 15:48:43 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:48:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <300594.74429.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <300594.74429.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 5:09 PM, old dirtbeard wrote: > A GMC Savana heavy (or Chevy) 1/2 ton cargo van with a 4.3L V6 is tough to beat. > It has 2,250 lb. payload, can pull a most any trailer, drives like a car, and > mine (an '03) averages 18.5 mpg in mostly city driving (on trips it gets 20.5 > mpg). It is my daily driver, and the only problems I have with it is that it is > 6' 11" high and will not fit in most of the older parking structures (here in LA > they are building the newer structures taller, at least on the first floor). > > > I think the Dodge vans are much lower profile (I see them parked in parking > structures my GMC will not fit). > 80 inches (6' 8"), give or take, depending on the year, model, and tire size. Of course, the Dodge van has been discontinued for six or eight years. The sprinter, which was the replacement, was much taller (as tall as 120", ten feet, in some variants.). Of course, it's no longer a dodge. Wonder if the mercedes dealers will let the plumbers wait in the service waiting room with the lawyers.... -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From marka at maracing.com Mon Oct 18 09:44:32 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <300594.74429.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <300594.74429.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, old dirtbeard wrote: > A GMC Savana heavy (or Chevy) 1/2 ton cargo van with a 4.3L V6 is tough > to beat. It has 2,250 lb. payload, can pull a most any trailer, drives > like a car, and mine (an '03) averages 18.5 mpg in mostly city driving > (on trips it gets 20.5 mpg). It is my daily driver, and the only > problems I have with it is that it is 6' 11" high and will not fit in > most of the older parking structures (here in LA they are building the > newer structures taller, at least on the first floor). > > > I think the Dodge vans are much lower profile (I see them parked in > parking structures my GMC will not fit). Unless you need to park in parking garages a lot, I'd be looking for a full size, probably 3/4 or 1 ton, cargo van. They're cheap as heck, keep everything dry and locked up, will tow stuff if you need to do that, and there are tons of them out there. And did I mention cheap? Only downside is no 4wd, if you're working on dodgy lots or whatever with muddy drives, etc. There's a reason that every plumber, electrician, or other tradesman drives one. Mark From hillman at planet-torque.com Mon Oct 18 09:58:29 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <666660.88355.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <666660.88355.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Jack Brooks wrote: > A top end hitch, with a removable receiver and electricals for an Impreza > will cost $500-700 if you drive it in for someone else to install, $250-400 > if you do it yourself. Just wanted to note that towing ratings for Imprezas range from 'don't do it' to around 2000 pounds. Even at the upper end at that range, you don't have much capacity ( after accounting for the trailer and hitch ). I find it's surprisingly easy to wind up with nearly a ton of material in the bed of my F150 ( 40 bags of topsoil the other day... tile/thinset/cbu for my wife's bathroom... etc ). I'm very glad I don't have to deal with a much lower limit, but your requirements may vary. And this is without carrying any tools at all, since I'm typically working on my house. I've had a couple Subarus, and even discounting the fact that both engines blew up inside 60,000 miles, I wouldn't consider using them for anything but simple transport. old dirtbeard writes... > A GMC Savana heavy (or Chevy) 1/2 ton cargo van with a 4.3L V6 is tough > to beat. It has 2,250 lb. payload, can pull a most any trailer, drives > like a car... For varying definitions of 'car' that is. I've driven these, and they don't remind me of any of the cars I've owned. But I think the way to go is a van like this, or a truck ( with a cap if necessary ), or something in between like a Suburban. My F150 costs me a few hundred extra dollars a year in fuel versus a smaller vehicle, but I can carry or tow basically anything I need to, in one trip. For me, that is more than worth it. -- David Hillman From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Mon Oct 18 11:00:30 2010 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: References: <666660.88355.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <609151.28107.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> old dirtbeard writes... >> A GMC Savana heavy (or Chevy) 1/2 ton cargo van with a 4.3L V6 is tough to >>beat. It has 2,250 lb. payload, can pull a most any trailer, drives like a >>car... > For varying definitions of 'car' that is. I've driven these, and they don't >remind me of any of the cars I've owned. But I think the way to go is a van >like this, or a truck ( with a cap if necessary ), or something in between like >a Suburban. - snip - Hi, Partly here I was trying to say that if you get a recent ('03 or newer) 1/2T GM van, they come with rack & pinion steering, four-wheel disc brakes with ABS, a very smooth shifting four-speed auto, etc. They steer, handle and brake very well. If you get the 4.3L engine, they also are pretty sparing on gas, but with very good low-end torque (250 ft/lb at 2,200 RPM). If you go with the 3/4T or ton models, they have recirculating ball steering, a much heavier-shifting transmission, lower gearing, steer and ride much more like a truck and are rather thirsty for fuel. Unless you really need the extra capacity, you end up paying for the extra capacity in handling, ride and fuel economy. GM has a 1/2T with a 2,250 lb payload, but it does not beat you up when it is empty...it is a great compromise for a daily driver as well. best, doug From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 14:18:59 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:18:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] door bottom weather stripping help Message-ID: We've got an exterior door that needs new bottom weather stripping. It's a steel door, foam filled. There's a pocket at the bottom, which holds the weatherstripping. The weather stripping is a rubber U-shaped piece, about half inch along the top (which seems to be metal reinforced.) The legs are plain rubber, about an inch and a quarter long. No one locally claims to have heard of such a thing. (the doors were made by a now defunct local company, so no help there.) I'm having no luck trying to find the stuff on the net. I simply can't believe this isn't a readily available part. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From rs1121 at earthlink.net Mon Oct 18 16:48:13 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:48:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Cargo vans are hard to beat - and don't ever get stolen or "come loose" for any reason like our trailers tend to. The only thing to add if you go the minivan route is to put a good metal shield between you and the cargo space - I've seen some pretty grizzly episodes here in DFW on guys that removed theirs or didn't add one to minivan. Rule number one - If your hauling a lot of crap - don't put yourself between it and the windshield! -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 9:31 AM To: shop-talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? I've been thinking about getting a better vehicle for my side construction business. The Impreza does great except for the plywood sheets :-) A pickup truck isn't weathertight and rides like a truck, and more often than not I'll have things in there that don't want to be bounced around. I've been thinking about a mini-van. A few people have told me theirs will haul 4x8 sheets. I'm assuming if it can haul 7 people it'll be ok with bags of mortar, etc. Any thoughts? thanks, From jferguson at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 18 18:02:39 2010 From: jferguson at bellsouth.net (Jim Ferguson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:02:39 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] What car is this?? Message-ID: <4CBCE01F.3030006@bellsouth.net> I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is it?? Anybody know. Jim From jferguson at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 18 18:15:05 2010 From: jferguson at bellsouth.net (Jim Ferguson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:15:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? Message-ID: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is it?? Anybody know. Forgot the link: http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l306/liledoun/Whatcarisit.jpg Jim From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Oct 18 18:17:55 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:17:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4CBCE3B3.904@xxiii.com> On 10/18/2010 8:15 PM, Jim Ferguson wrote: > I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is it?? > Anybody know. Fuglymobile? Sorry, it was probably avant-garde at the time ;) Avanti? Maserati? Jag? -wayne From gsteve at hammatt.com Mon Oct 18 18:18:08 2010 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:18:08 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> looks like a Dual Ghia to me. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ferguson" To: Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:15 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? >I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is >it?? Anybody know. > > Forgot the link: > > http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l306/liledoun/Whatcarisit.jpg > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com From gsteve at hammatt.com Mon Oct 18 18:27:06 2010 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:27:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: <6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> <6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> Message-ID: Go here for some photos. http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=dual+ghia+1963&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" To: "Jim Ferguson" ; "Shop Talk" Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] What is it? > looks like a Dual Ghia to me. > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Ferguson" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:15 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? > > >>I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is >>it?? Anybody know. >> >> Forgot the link: >> >> http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l306/liledoun/Whatcarisit.jpg >> >> Jim >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com From mdporter at dfn.com Mon Oct 18 18:33:07 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:33:07 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: <6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> <6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <4CBCE743.2030302@dfn.com> On 10/18/2010 6:18 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: > looks like a Dual Ghia to me. > Yes, probably a `62. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From eltonclark at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 18:36:21 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:36:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> <6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> Message-ID: *I think Steve nailed it: Dual Ghia. I remember reading about it in the car magazines and once meeting one on the highway and wondering if it Was Dean Martin, Sammy Davis or Frank Sinatra.* ** On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA < gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote: > Go here for some photos. > > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=dual+ghia+1963&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" < > gsteve at hammatt.com> > To: "Jim Ferguson" ; "Shop Talk" < > shop-talk at autox.team.net> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] What is it? > > > > looks like a Dual Ghia to me. >> >> Steve Hammatt >> Mount Vernon WA USA >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ferguson" < >> jferguson at bellsouth.net> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:15 PM >> Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? >> >> >> I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is it?? >>> Anybody know. >>> >>> Forgot the link: >>> >>> http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l306/liledoun/Whatcarisit.jpg >>> >>> Jim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >>> Unsubscribe/Manage: >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From mark at bradakis.com Mon Oct 18 18:45:35 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:45:35 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> <6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <4CBCEA2F.8070000@bradakis.com> I was thinking Iso Grifo, but they were usually a little less glitzy than the example shown. mjb. From racertod at racertodd.com Mon Oct 18 18:44:26 2010 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:44:26 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20101018172814.00bdfa80@mail.avvanta.com> Jim wrote: >I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is >it?? Anybody know. It's a 1962 Ghia L6.4. Made by the same company (Dual) that made the Dual-Ghia of 1956-58. Dual-Ghia is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-Ghia This is a Ghia L6.4: http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z10045/Ghia-L64.aspx.aspx Very similar shape as the '56-68 cars. A pretty rare catch as only 26 were made. Cost $13K back in '62 - 3 times the price of a Corvette. This could have been the car you saw. Same color. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 272,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 257,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From tvacc at lotusowners.com Mon Oct 18 18:49:44 2010 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:49:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net><6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> Message-ID: Yes, as I recall, they all had Dual Ghias Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Elton E. (Tony) Clark Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:36 PM To: Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA Cc: Shop Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] What is it? *I think Steve nailed it: Dual Ghia. I remember reading about it in the car magazines and once meeting one on the highway and wondering if it Was Dean Martin, Sammy Davis or Frank Sinatra.* ** On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA < gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote: > Go here for some photos. > > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=dual+ghia+1963&gbv=2&aq=f& aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= > > Steve Hammatt > Mount Vernon WA USA > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" < > gsteve at hammatt.com> > To: "Jim Ferguson" ; "Shop Talk" < > shop-talk at autox.team.net> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] What is it? > > > > looks like a Dual Ghia to me. >> >> Steve Hammatt >> Mount Vernon WA USA >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ferguson" < >> jferguson at bellsouth.net> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:15 PM >> Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? >> >> >> I took this picture at Sebring race 1963. I just found it--What is it?? >>> Anybody know. >>> >>> Forgot the link: >>> >>> http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l306/liledoun/Whatcarisit.jpg >>> >>> Jim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >>> Unsubscribe/Manage: >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com >> > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tvacc at lotusowners.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5543 (20101018) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5543 (20101018) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Mon Oct 18 19:06:27 2010 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:06:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org>, <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Message-ID: I assume that the metal shield would be needed in a cargo van also. I DO NOT want to hear about the demise of a list member! Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From jferguson at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 18 21:54:27 2010 From: jferguson at bellsouth.net (Jim Ferguson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 23:54:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it? In-Reply-To: References: <4CBCE309.5030908@bellsouth.net><6F4F20F1B73E40F38C6A0E07828F3416@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <4CBD1673.8020800@bellsouth.net> You guys are good. Within a couple minutes Steve had it nailed. The car seems to be a 1963 Dual-Ghia L6.4 Coupe. Thanks for the information. Jim From paul.mele at usermail.com Mon Oct 18 22:24:06 2010 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 00:24:06 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Message-ID: <003301cb6f45$786c9680$6945c380$@mele@usermail.com> medically speaking, this is truly EXCELLENT advice. PM From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 08:53:42 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:53:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Rich White wrote: > I assume that the metal shield would be needed in a cargo van also. > I DO NOT want to hear about the demise of a list member! > Yes, but a cargo van is likely to already have one. If you're looking at new vans, both Chevy and Ford offer incentives to buy commercial equipment. I don't know what either are doing now, but if you're a qualified buyer, it's a mistake to miss out on it. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Oct 22 22:12:13 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 23:12:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] digital caliper vs. dial caliper? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org>, <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Message-ID: <4CC2609D.4020807@tx.rr.com> I've decided I might upgrade my old vernier caliper to a digital or dial caliper. This is for light hobby use. 1. Which is preferred- digital or dial? Digital seems easier to use but I worry about how long electronic tools such as this will last. I don't want to put it in a drawer and pull it out a year later only to find that it doesn't work anymore. 2. I notice that Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, Harbor Freight all sell both types. Harbor Freight is quite a bit cheaper, and has a wide range of reviews. Should I buy one of these or search ebay for the occasional deal on a better brand? and what brand(s) should I look for to get quality at a reasonable price? From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Fri Oct 22 22:18:02 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 23:18:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] small band saw? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org>, <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Message-ID: <4CC261FA.2070807@tx.rr.com> I used a friend's band saw for a small hobby project recently and I decided that I would like to have one for my own use. I see 10" and larger models for sale, they cost more than what I would want to spend and most of these require mounting on a floor stand. I also see 9" models that sit on a table and are less expensive. Skill and Delta make one model (appears to be the same unit with different names), Ryobi makes one, Sears makes on and Harbor Freight sells one. The Sears unit gets real low ratings, the Skill/Delta not much better, the Ryobi gets medium ratings, and the HF model gets good ratings. Should I get one of the small inexpensive models and take my chances, or should I try to find a deal on a used larger model? I would still need to set it on a bench which might be a problem with some of the larger models. From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Oct 22 23:25:44 2010 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 22:25:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] small band saw? In-Reply-To: <4CC261FA.2070807@tx.rr.com> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org>, <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> <4CC261FA.2070807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4CC271D8.7030402@frontier.com> Who's ratings? While I have bought my share of stuff from Harbor Freight, I would take the "ratings" on their web site with a very large grain of salt. There is a lot of stuff on the web from people who have posted negative ratings on HF stuff only to never see them posted. I haven't seen very many negative ratings there. The ratings I tend to trust most are on Amazon. As for the saws, I'm a full size tool guy; I haven't heard many good things about the small band saws. They aren't heavy and strong enough to tension a blade properly. I suppose for light hobby use they could be OK but the smallest I would personally consider would be a full sized 14" saw like the Delta or one of it's clones. They show up on CL around here all the time. BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > I used a friend's band saw for a small hobby project recently and I > decided that I would like to have one for my own use. I see 10" and > larger models for sale, they cost more than what I would want to spend > and most of these require mounting on a floor stand. I also see 9" > models that sit on a table and are less expensive. Skill and Delta make > one model (appears to be the same unit with different names), Ryobi > makes one, Sears makes on and Harbor Freight sells one. The Sears unit > gets real low ratings, the Skill/Delta not much better, the Ryobi gets > medium ratings, and the HF model gets good ratings. > > Should I get one of the small inexpensive models and take my chances, or > should I try to find a deal on a used larger model? I would still need > to set it on a bench which might be a problem with some of the larger > models. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From cavanadd at frontier.com Fri Oct 22 23:31:40 2010 From: cavanadd at frontier.com (David C.) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 22:31:40 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] digital caliper vs. dial caliper? In-Reply-To: <4CC2609D.4020807@tx.rr.com> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org>, <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> <4CC2609D.4020807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4CC2733C.6010402@frontier.com> I have a number of cheap digital calipers. Probably half of them are from H.F. They are so cheap I have one on the main work bench, one or two with the lathe/mill, one on the reloading bench, etc. I haven't had any trouble with ANY of them, and if they were to crap out I'm only out nine bucks or so. I just keep a few extra batteries around. On the other hand, I have had a couple of relatively expense dial calipers die after one fall to the floor. They are also hard to zero and are susceptible to getting dirt debris in the rack. BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > I've decided I might upgrade my old vernier caliper to a digital or dial > caliper. This is for light hobby use. > > 1. Which is preferred- digital or dial? Digital seems easier to use but > I worry about how long electronic tools such as this will last. I don't > want to put it in a drawer and pull it out a year later only to find > that it doesn't work anymore. > 2. I notice that Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, Harbor Freight all sell both > types. Harbor Freight is quite a bit cheaper, and has a wide range of > reviews. Should I buy one of these or search ebay for the occasional > deal on a better brand? and what brand(s) should I look for to get > quality at a reasonable price? > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at frontier.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 07:23:12 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:23:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] digital caliper vs. dial caliper? In-Reply-To: <4CC2609D.4020807@tx.rr.com> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> <4CC2609D.4020807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:12 AM, BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > I've decided I might upgrade my old vernier caliper to a digital or dial > caliper. B This is for light hobby use. > > 1. B Which is preferred- digital or dial? B Digital seems easier to use but I > worry about how long electronic tools such as this will last. B I don't want > to put it in a drawer and pull it out a year later only to find that it > doesn't work anymore. digital is much nicer. Not only are they easier to read and use, but they're also more resistant to abuse. There's just one moving part, so no gears to get things jammed in them, or teeth to break off. They're a printed multi-pole capacitor, so their accuracy is limited to the accuracy of the circuit printer. For typical commodity grade PCBs, that works out to be 0.0001 inch in a six inch model. That's better than the accuracy of caliper mechanism itself. Battery life is a problem on some of the cheap ones (and older fancy branded ones.), but they almost all (never seen one that doesn't.) use SR44 batteries. (HF ones often have LR44 batteries in them, which should be replaced quickly. The voltage drop as the cell is used up can cause accuracy problems.) > 2. B I notice that Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, Harbor Freight all sell both > types. B Harbor Freight is quite a bit cheaper, and has a wide range of > reviews. B Should I buy one of these or search ebay for the occasional deal > on a better brand? B and what brand(s) should I look for to get quality at a > reasonable price? Unless you need one that's traceable to a standards organization, buy one from HF or the like. What Sears and HD sell are the same thing, with bigger markups. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 08:28:08 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:28:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] digital caliper vs. dial caliper? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> <4CC2609D.4020807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: *I'm glad to see this subject arise . .I too use multiple Harbor Freight calipers at about $9 each and I have one mounted on my drill press as a depth gauge. Next, I'm mounting one on the cross feed of my 12" Atlas lathe . . digital read out for 9 bucks! What a deal! * From fortee9er at yahoo.com Sun Oct 24 20:03:22 2010 From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] soldering iron Message-ID: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I was trying to re-solder the instrument cluster circuit board on my old Volvo and I tried a new Radio Shack pecil type (thin sharp point) soldering iron that I've had for a while but had not used. This thing was useless it never got hot enough to do the job. Today I tested a couple of very old soldering irons from a friend and they got hot quick. Unfortunately they are so old that I could not a brand name on them. Can anyone recommend a brand of good quality soldering irons. Thank You Jorge From jdinnis at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:25:45 2010 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:25:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] soldering iron In-Reply-To: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I just picked up a decent quality Weller unit from a local store. It came with an adjustable heat controller and a stand for less than $50. The offer a wide variety of tips to suit most needs. On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Jorge Garcia wrote: > I was trying to re-solder the instrument cluster circuit board on my old Volvo and I tried a new Radio Shack pecil type (thin sharp point) soldering iron that I've had for a while but had not used. This thing was useless it never got hot enough to do the job. Today I tested a couple of very old soldering irons from a friend and they got hot quick. Unfortunately they are so old that I could not a brand name on them. Can anyone recommend a brand of good quality soldering irons. > Thank You > Jorge > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From bk13 at earthlink.net Sun Oct 24 22:40:23 2010 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:40:23 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] soldering iron In-Reply-To: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC50A37.6080401@earthlink.net> Jorge - Weller has been a good brand for decades. You can even buy them at Radio Shack. I have a small Radios Shack iron I've used for years. Before you toss the new one, make sure the tip is in tight. If you forget before heating it up, just grab the tip with a pair of pliers. If it is loose, you will not get the heat transfer. Also, if the tip is brand new, you should tin it first to conduct heat to the work. Heat the iron for a few minutes then touch some solder to the tip and it should quickly melt and coat the tip. It only takes a thin layer to improve heat transfer. Finally, make sure you are using thinner rosin core electrical solder. A small pencil iron isn't going to melt thick plumbing solder and properly heat the work. Also look at the wattage of your iron. For circuit boards, I'd probably only use a 25-30 watt iron to avoid overheating the components. Unless you are attaching heavy gauge wires, they should be more than adequate. If you only have a 15 watt iron, it probably won't cut it. Brian On 10/24/2010 7:03 PM, Jorge Garcia wrote: > I was trying to re-solder the instrument cluster circuit board on my old Volvo and I tried a new Radio Shack pecil type (thin sharp point) soldering iron that I've had for a while but had not used. This thing was useless it never got hot enough to do the job. Today I tested a couple of very old soldering irons from a friend and they got hot quick. Unfortunately they are so old that I could not a brand name on them. Can anyone recommend a brand of good quality soldering irons. > Thank You > Jorge > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Sun Oct 24 22:42:56 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:42:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] soldering iron In-Reply-To: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC50AD0.3060006@tx.rr.com> I have more experience with the solder "guns" than the solder "pens". It seems to me that if your pen has a long narrow point then it cannot conduct heat fast enough down to the point. Depending on what you are soldering, the mass of it can soak up the heat faster than it can be applied. Maybe a blunter tip could work better. I've noticed that some solder pens besides coming with different tips, they have different heating elements as well, i.e. they are rated at different wattages. So depending on what you are soldering you might match the wattage of the tip to the job. > I was trying to re-solder the instrument cluster circuit board on my old Volvo and I tried a new Radio Shack pecil type (thin sharp point) soldering iron that I've had for a while but had not used. This thing was useless it never got hot enough to do the job. Today I tested a couple of very old soldering irons from a friend and they got hot quick. Unfortunately they are so old that I could not a brand name on them. Can anyone recommend a brand of good quality soldering irons. From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Oct 24 23:54:47 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:54:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] soldering iron In-Reply-To: <4CC50AD0.3060006@tx.rr.com> References: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC50AD0.3060006@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <0acf01cb7409$21be5300$0301a8c0@randall> > I've noticed that some solder pens besides coming with > different tips, > they have different heating elements as well, i.e. they are rated at > different wattages. So depending on what you are soldering you might > match the wattage of the tip to the job. The ones they use at work are thermostatically controlled, so even a big heating element won't overheat the tip. Then the tips come in different sizes as well, to suit the job at hand. Weller is an old, well respected brand: http://tinyurl.com/24xobnp However, I suspect that even a cheap controlled iron is better than the best uncontrolled iron for doing PCB work: http://www.warnerstainedglass.com/product.aspx?id=5110-103 Randall From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Mon Oct 25 07:06:47 2010 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:06:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] soldering iron In-Reply-To: <4CC50AD0.3060006@tx.rr.com> References: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4CC50AD0.3060006@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: You probably do not want to use a soldering gun on a circuit board. When you let off the trigger the collapsing magnetic field can induce damaging electrical current in the components on the board. A 25-30 watt iron with a tight and tinned tip should do the trick on a circuit board unless you are trying to do it outside in the wind. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Oct 25 07:47:46 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] soldering iron In-Reply-To: References: <300860.4453.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC50AD0.3060006@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: One more tip on choosing a soldering iron: Some really cheap ones have a plain copper tip. The melted solder will slowly dissolve the copper, forcing you to regularly file the tip back to a useful shape. Any "real" soldering iron will have an iron-plated tip that melted solder will not erode. The only downside (a very minor one) is that you have to keep the tip properly tinned to protect the iron. Doug From jniolon at bham.rr.com Mon Oct 25 19:11:49 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:11:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps Message-ID: <698F797A37BD494EB19B9F99AFE0BC4C@john5043a2d406> I've got a number of 2" ratchet straps that all have flat strap ends. They work well on trailers with a bar stock rail or angle iron... but don't do diddley on d-rings or round stock... too much invested in the straps to scrap them and start over I've found a 'wire hook' that will hook in the flat strap ends and give you a hook that will work on the d-rings... but everyone that sells them wants case quantity orders... at 5 bucks a piece 25-30 to a box that's not in the budget... I only need 4 -6 of these total... guess I could fab some up but looking for a supplier of small quantities... here's what they look like..... any help out there http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/2inhook.jpg thanks John 'We have staked the whole of all our political Institutions upon the capacity of mankind for Self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to The Ten Commandments of God.' - James Madison From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Oct 25 19:32:37 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:32:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps In-Reply-To: <698F797A37BD494EB19B9F99AFE0BC4C@john5043a2d406> References: <698F797A37BD494EB19B9F99AFE0BC4C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <001901cb74ad$aced7b00$06c87100$@ameritech.net> You could buy straps with that type of hook on each end at Horrible freight and scrap the straps. Or just use the whole thing - they're not bad. http://www.harborfreight.com/2-inch-x-27-ft-ratchet-tie-down-95106.html Pretty sure you can get these for less than $10 on sale or with a coupon. They might have shorter ones for less $ too, but the other 2" ones I found had light-duty single-wire hooks. Karl -----Original Message----- From: John Niolon Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps I've found a 'wire hook' that will hook in the flat strap ends and give you a hook that will work on the d-rings... but everyone that sells them wants case quantity orders... at 5 bucks a piece 25-30 to a box that's not in the budget... I only need 4 -6 of these total... guess I could fab some up but looking for a supplier of small quantities... here's what they look like..... any help out there http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/2inhook.jpg thanks John From ggelhar at earthlink.net Mon Oct 25 21:16:45 2010 From: ggelhar at earthlink.net (Greg Gelhar) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:16:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps Message-ID: <410-220101022631645499@earthlink.net> John, A quick look in the McMaster-Carr catalog shows a matching hook for 2" wide webbing. Their part # 3648T83 shown at $2.79 ea. Greg Gelhar Osseo, MN > [Original Message] > From: John Niolon > To: shop-talk > Date: 10/25/2010 8:10:50 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps > > I've got a number of 2" ratchet straps that all have flat strap ends. They > work well on trailers with a bar stock rail or angle iron... but don't do > diddley on d-rings or round stock... too much invested in the straps to scrap > them and start over > > I've found a 'wire hook' that will hook in the flat strap ends and give you a > hook that will work on the d-rings... but everyone that sells them wants case > quantity orders... at 5 bucks a piece 25-30 to a box that's not in the > budget... I only need 4 -6 of these total... guess I could fab some up but > looking for a supplier of small quantities... > > here's what they look like..... any help out there > http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/2inhook.jpg > > thanks > John From ronnie.day at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 21:35:15 2010 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:35:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps In-Reply-To: <410-220101022631645499@earthlink.net> References: <410-220101022631645499@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I use binder clips designed to hold a stack of papers together. I run the "excess" around a trailer rail then clamp the end back on the strapAvailable in sizes up to 2 inches. The 2 ones come 12 to a box for around $5. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Greg Gelhar wrote: > John, > > A quick look in the McMaster-Carr catalog shows a matching hook for 2" wide > webbing. Their part # 3648T83 shown at $2.79 ea. > > > Greg Gelhar > Osseo, MN > > >> [Original Message] >> From: John Niolon >> To: shop-talk >> Date: 10/25/2010 8:10:50 PM >> Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps >> >> I've got a number of 2" ratchet straps that all have flat strap ends. > They >> work well on trailers with a bar stock rail or angle iron... but don't do >> diddley on d-rings or round stock... B too much invested in the straps to > scrap >> them and start over >> >> I've found a 'wire hook' that will hook in the flat strap ends and give > you a >> hook that will work on the d-rings... but everyone that sells them wants > case >> quantity orders... at 5 bucks a piece 25-30 to a box that's not in the >> budget... I only need 4 -6 of these total... guess I could fab some up but >> looking for a supplier of small quantities... >> >> here's what they look like..... any help out there >> http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/2inhook.jpg >> >> thanks >> John > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation B $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com > > -- Ron From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 06:17:55 2010 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:17:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] small band saw? In-Reply-To: <4CC271D8.7030402@frontier.com> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org>, , <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net>, , <4CC261FA.2070807@tx.rr.com>, <4CC271D8.7030402@frontier.com> Message-ID: I have a Ridgid 14" saw. Bought used from CL in great shape. I don't have a ton of room for it, but bandsaws are pretty compact albeit tall. With one on wheels like the Ridgid, you can easily pull it out to get to it and then put it back. Not sure with the smaller benchtop saws if you'd be able to pick up the variety of blades you might want to use since most are made for the larger saws. If you were able to use a Home Depot coupon, some gift cards, etc. you could pick one up pretty cheaply new I would think. -PJ > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 22:25:44 -0700 > From: cavanadd at frontier.com > To: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com > CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] small band saw? > > Who's ratings? While I have bought my share of stuff from Harbor > Freight, I would take the "ratings" on their web site with a very large > grain of salt. There is a lot of stuff on the web from people who have > posted negative ratings on HF stuff only to never see them posted. I > haven't seen very many negative ratings there. The ratings I tend to > trust most are on Amazon. > > As for the saws, I'm a full size tool guy; I haven't heard many good > things about the small band saws. They aren't heavy and strong enough > to tension a blade properly. I suppose for light hobby use they could > be OK but the smallest I would personally consider would be a full sized > 14" saw like the Delta or one of it's clones. They show up on CL around > here all the time. > > BJNoSHOV8 wrote: > > I used a friend's band saw for a small hobby project recently and I > > decided that I would like to have one for my own use. I see 10" and > > larger models for sale, they cost more than what I would want to spend > > and most of these require mounting on a floor stand. I also see 9" > > models that sit on a table and are less expensive. Skill and Delta make > > one model (appears to be the same unit with different names), Ryobi > > makes one, Sears makes on and Harbor Freight sells one. The Sears unit > > gets real low ratings, the Skill/Delta not much better, the Ryobi gets > > medium ratings, and the HF model gets good ratings. > > > > Should I get one of the small inexpensive models and take my chances, or > > should I try to find a deal on a used larger model? I would still need > > to set it on a bench which might be a problem with some of the larger > > models. From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Oct 26 06:55:03 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:55:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] small band saw? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> <4CC261FA.2070807@tx.rr.com> <4CC271D8.7030402@frontier.com> Message-ID: A few years ago I decided to buy a small bandsaw. I took home a Ryobi model from HD, but returned it because it was just too flimsy and wobbly. (Ryobi specialized in die-casting using the least possible amount of material...) Then I checked out everything that was available locally. I ended up getting a Sears "Companion" 8" saw. It was quite inexpensive, but it was actually the sturdiest of anything I could find in the 8-9" size range. One tip: Replace whatever cheesy blade that comes with the saw with a good made-in-USA model. I got a nice replacement Lenox blade from www.toolcenter.com. The saw took an oddball-length blade, but they made custom lengths. If you are cutting small stuff like 1/8" think plywood, you will certainly need a finer-tooth blade than the one that came with the saw. Doug >> > I used a friend's band saw for a small hobby project recently and I >> > decided that I would like to have one for my own use. I see 10" and >> > larger models for sale, they cost more than what I would want to spend >> > and most of these require mounting on a floor stand. I also see 9" >> > models that sit on a table and are less expensive. Skill and Delta make >> > one model (appears to be the same unit with different names), Ryobi >> > makes one, Sears makes on and Harbor Freight sells one. The Sears unit >> > gets real low ratings, the Skill/Delta not much better, the Ryobi gets >> > medium ratings, and the HF model gets good ratings. From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Tue Oct 26 09:41:52 2010 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:41:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] small band saw? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> <4CC261FA.2070807@tx.rr.com> <4CC271D8.7030402@frontier.com> Message-ID: <20101026154152.GA30995@sackheads.org> > One tip: Replace whatever cheesy blade that comes with the saw with a > good made-in-USA model. I got a nice replacement Lenox blade from > www.toolcenter.com. The saw took an oddball-length blade, but they > made custom lengths. If you are cutting small stuff like 1/8" think > plywood, you will certainly need a finer-tooth blade than the one that > came with the saw. Seconded on the Lenox blades. I have a Lennox Diemaster2 on my saw and for the price, it's hard to beat. To the original poster (sorry, I've since deleted that message): Sears tools are hit or miss. They've used several OEMs over the years. Used to be their small bandsaws (the ones with three wheels) were pretty much crap. But recently they introduced some models with Rikon-style frames that were better quality. Their 12" model in particular is/was pretty well-regarded. Go much smaller than that and I think you'll be better off with a high quality jigsaw (check out the Bosch 1591...it's spendy but it's the best jigsaw I've ever used) or maybe even a scroll saw depending on the type of cuts you're planning to make. JM From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Oct 26 10:52:01 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:52:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] small band saw? In-Reply-To: <20101026154152.GA30995@sackheads.org> References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> <4CC261FA.2070807@tx.rr.com> <4CC271D8.7030402@frontier.com> <20101026154152.GA30995@sackheads.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > Go much smaller than that and I think you'll be better off with a high quality > jigsaw (check out the Bosch 1591...it's spendy but it's the best jigsaw I've > ever used) or maybe even a scroll saw depending on the type of cuts you're > planning to make. > > JM Keep in mind that a bandsaw blade is about 20x bigger than a jigsaw blade, so it will last maybe 20x longer. Also, the fact that it moves smoothly in only one direction makes it less likely to destroy delicate work. I have a Bosch jigsaw (I, too, recommend them), and at one point I was mounting it upside-down in vise to make a poor-man's scroll saw. It sort of worked, but I wouldn't do it again! Not too safe! Doug From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 10:56:25 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:56:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps In-Reply-To: References: <410-220101022631645499@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: > I use binder clips designed to hold a stack of papers together. I run > the "excess" around a trailer rail then clamp the end back on the > strapAvailable in sizes up to 2 inches. The 2 ones come 12 to a box > for around $5. You're trusting other people's lives to a paperclip? Really? Are you sure you've thought that through? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mbarre at juno.com Tue Oct 26 10:58:40 2010 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:58:40 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps Message-ID: <20101026.125840.9618.2@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> He is just talking about securing the excess strapping so it doesn't flap around I believe! On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: > I use binder clips designed to hold a stack of papers together. I run > the "excess" around a trailer rail then clamp the end back on the > strapAvailable in sizes up to 2 inches. The 2 ones come 12 to a box > for around $5. You're trusting other people's lives to a paperclip? Really? Are you sure you've thought that through? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com ____________________________________________________________ SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09 BREAKING NEWS: Is this a SCAM? You WON'T believe what we found! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cc708c8511c642eb6cst03vuc From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 11:02:22 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:02:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps In-Reply-To: <698F797A37BD494EB19B9F99AFE0BC4C@john5043a2d406> References: <698F797A37BD494EB19B9F99AFE0BC4C@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM, John Niolon wrote: > I've got a number of 2" ratchet straps that all have flat strap ends. B They > work well on trailers with a bar stock rail or angle iron... but don't do > diddley on d-rings or round stock... B too much invested in the straps to scrap > them and start over > > I've found a 'wire hook' that will hook in the flat strap ends and give you a > hook that will work on the d-rings... but everyone that sells them wants case > quantity orders... at 5 bucks a piece 25-30 to a box that's not in the > budget... I only need 4 -6 of these total... guess I could fab some up but > looking for a supplier of small quantities... > Buy some straps with them already attached. They're not terribly expensive. http://www.talcospecialties.com/Winch-Strap-2-inch.aspx -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Oct 26 11:12:14 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:12:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps In-Reply-To: <20101026.125840.9618.2@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> References: <20101026.125840.9618.2@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <40C8217677BC45D48B2472BC341C4028@OwnerPC> No Matt, I'm talking about the attach point for the strap itself... what will sustain the load... the excess strap I usually just tape or wire tie to the tensioned strap > He is just talking about securing the excess strapping so it doesn't flap > around I believe! > > > You're trusting other people's lives to a paperclip? Really? Are you > sure you've thought that through? > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > > > ____________________________________________________________ > SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09 > BREAKING NEWS: Is this a SCAM? You WON'T believe what we found! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cc708c8511c642eb6cst03vuc > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3220 - Release Date: 10/26/10 01:34:00 From ronnie.day at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 11:12:57 2010 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:12:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wire hooks for ratchet straps In-Reply-To: <20101026.125840.9618.2@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> References: <20101026.125840.9618.2@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: That's correct. Just securing the loose ends. I remember seeing adverts for some straps (Ericsson, IIRC) that have a spring loaded self adjustment you use before ratcheting the strap. Not cheap I'm sure. I used to roll our straps up between uses and hold them with big rubber bands, but that's a PITA. These days I have a length of wire between adjacent studs in our shed and I hang them from that. Usually works okay, but I think they're multiplying. :>) On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Matt wrote: > He is just talking about securing the excess strapping so it doesn't flap around I believe! > > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Ronnie Day wrote: >> I use binder clips designed to hold a stack of papers together. I run >> the "excess" around a trailer rail then clamp the end back on the >> strap. Available in sizes up to 2 inches. The 2 ones come 12 to a box >> for around $5. > > You're trusting other people's lives to a paperclip? B Really? Are you > sure you've thought that through? > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > > > ____________________________________________________________ > SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09 > BREAKING NEWS: Is this a SCAM? You WON'T believe what we found! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cc708c8571494c99b1st01vuc > -- Ron From nases at verizon.net Tue Oct 26 16:18:45 2010 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:18:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 2004 Toyota Tacoma towing package Message-ID: <8A1DA02D-77A7-4F79-B83D-2A421EFEE626@verizon.net> Does anyone on the list have experience with a 2004 Tacoma factory tow package? I bought a 2004 Tacoma from a Toyota dealer in 2006. The window sticker with the VIN listed on it showed the optional tow package was on the truck. I now have need to tow a trailer with a car on it and find that the truck does not have the tow package. The dealer is willing to install an oil cooler at his expense. This sounded fair to me but I have some reservations. I thought the factory package also included a larger radiator, alternator and battery. I can't seem to find out whether this is true. The dealer says that there was nothing else included in the factory package other than the trans oil cooler. All I really want is to be legal and safe towing up to the factory tow package limit. That is what I paid for and why I purchased a Toyota certified truck. Does anyone know what was included with the tow package and have an opinion on whether the oil cooler is really all I need to be legal and safe? I usually keep my vehicles a long time and would like the truck to give me good service. Thanks. I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this question. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From eric at megageek.com Tue Oct 26 16:12:59 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:12:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 2004 Toyota Tacoma towing package In-Reply-To: <8A1DA02D-77A7-4F79-B83D-2A421EFEE626@verizon.net> Message-ID: I would also make sure they install a brake controller. All the trucks I see with real tow packages have them built in. Back when Toyota was having major recall headaches, I said that I found that Toyota seems to always find ways to misrepresent their products. This is a new one to me! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Phil Nase Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 10/26/2010 18:06 To "shop-talk at autox.team.net Talk List" cc Subject [Shop-talk] 2004 Toyota Tacoma towing package Does anyone on the list have experience with a 2004 Tacoma factory tow package? I bought a 2004 Tacoma from a Toyota dealer in 2006. The window sticker with the VIN listed on it showed the optional tow package was on the truck. I now have need to tow a trailer with a car on it and find that the truck does not have the tow package. The dealer is willing to install an oil cooler at his expense. This sounded fair to me but I have some reservations. I thought the factory package also included a larger radiator, alternator and battery. I can't seem to find out whether this is true. The dealer says that there was nothing else included in the factory package other than the trans oil cooler. All I really want is to be legal and safe towing up to the factory tow package limit. That is what I paid for and why I purchased a Toyota certified truck. Does anyone know what was included with the tow package and have an opinion on whether the oil cooler is really all I need to be legal and safe? I usually keep my vehicles a long time and would like the truck to give me good service. Thanks. I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this question. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From nases at verizon.net Tue Oct 26 16:36:22 2010 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:36:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 2004 Toyota Tacoma towing package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They are also going to install a prodigy brake controller and 7 pin connector for me. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ On Oct 26, 2010, at 6:12 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I would also make sure they install a brake controller. All the trucks I > see with real tow packages have them built in. > > Back when Toyota was having major recall headaches, I said that I found > that Toyota seems to always find ways to misrepresent their products. This > is a new one to me! > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > > > > > Phil Nase > Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > 10/26/2010 18:06 > > To > "shop-talk at autox.team.net Talk List" > cc > > Subject > [Shop-talk] 2004 Toyota Tacoma towing package > > > > > > > Does anyone on the list have experience with a 2004 Tacoma factory tow > package? > > I bought a 2004 Tacoma from a Toyota dealer in 2006. The window sticker > with > the VIN listed on it showed the optional tow package was on the truck. > > I now have need to tow a trailer with a car on it and find that the truck > does > not have the tow package. The dealer is willing to install an oil cooler > at > his expense. This sounded fair to me but I have some reservations. I > thought > the factory package also included a larger radiator, alternator and > battery. > I can't seem to find out whether this is true. > > The dealer says that there was nothing else included in the factory > package > other than the trans oil cooler. All I really want is to be legal and > safe > towing up to the factory tow package limit. That is what I paid for and > why I > purchased a Toyota certified truck. > > Does anyone know what was included with the tow package and have an > opinion on > whether the oil cooler is really all I need to be legal and safe? I > usually > keep my vehicles a long time and would like the truck to give me good > service. > > Thanks. I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this question. > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Oct 26 17:14:11 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 2004 Toyota Tacoma towing package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote: > I would also make sure they install a brake controller. All the trucks I > see with real tow packages have them built in. In a recent 3/4 ton truck, yeah. In a "3/8ths ton" like a Tacoma, though? I've never seen that. Other than a new F150, I'm not sure you can even buy a 1/2 ton with a factory controller... and you couldn't even do that until this model year or last. One way or another, you'll need wiring for a controller. If you can get the dealer to do it, I would. -- David Hillman From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 19:47:46 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 2004 Toyota Tacoma towing package In-Reply-To: <8A1DA02D-77A7-4F79-B83D-2A421EFEE626@verizon.net> References: <8A1DA02D-77A7-4F79-B83D-2A421EFEE626@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Phil Nase wrote: > Does anyone on the list have experience with a 2004 Tacoma factory tow > package? > > I bought a 2004 Tacoma from a Toyota dealer in 2006. B The window sticker with > the VIN listed on it showed the optional tow package was on the truck. > > I now have need to tow a trailer with a car on it and find that the truck does > not have the tow package. B The dealer is willing to install an oil cooler at > his expense. B This sounded fair to me but I have some reservations. B I thought > the factory package also included a larger radiator, alternator and battery. > I can't seem to find out whether this is true. > > The dealer says that there was nothing else included in the factory package > other than the trans oil cooler. B All I really want is to be legal and safe > towing up to the factory tow package limit. B That is what I paid for and why I > purchased a Toyota certified truck. > > Does anyone know what was included with the tow package and have an opinion on > whether the oil cooler is really all I need to be legal and safe? B I usually > keep my vehicles a long time and would like the truck to give me good > service. > i have no experience, but Toyota truck owners are as fanatical about them as any other brand's fans are. These days, that means there are web fora with people who can answer the question for you. (Actually, I take that back about "no experience". I know that there are different fan viscous couplings for that generation of Tacoma. Maybe whole different fan assembly, too. ) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Oct 26 20:52:06 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:52:06 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] noid light Message-ID: I have a dead cylinder on our Alfa Romeo GTV6. Spark plugs are good (swapping them does not change the location of the dead cylinder), plug wires are good (normal resistance and I can get a good fat spark by holding the end 1/4" from the block) I want to check for electrical signal to the fuel injector. Can I use a digital voltmeter to test? (Start engine, remove connector and put the voltmeter's probes on the two contacts. I have a wire diagram to tell me which wire is + & - ) I don't have a noid light. Is that an LED or some special light bulb? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From TR3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 26 21:23:07 2010 From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:23:07 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] noid light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01d201cb7586$4678f230$0301a8c0@randall> > Can I use a > digital voltmeter to test? (Start engine, remove connector and put the > voltmeter's probes on the two contacts. With the engine running, the signal moves too fast for a voltmeter to follow. But if you can see no voltage with the engine stopped, and voltage with it running, chances are that power is getting to the injector. Depending on how fast your voltmeter is, you may be able to see it jumping around at cranking speed. A dwell meter also would work, if you have one. > I don't have a noid light. Is that an LED or some special light bulb? Nothing special about it, except having a plug to match your injector harness. It's just a light bulb, either incandescent or LED (with a dropping resistor for 12v operation). An ordinary test light works just as well, once you get it connected (but don't short those two pins together or you will be buying an ECU). Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 21:32:11 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:32:11 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] noid light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > I have a dead cylinder on our Alfa Romeo GTV6. Spark plugs are good (swapping > them does not change the location of the dead cylinder), plug wires are good > (normal resistance and I can get a good fat spark by holding the end 1/4" from > the block) > > I want to check for electrical signal to the fuel injector. Can I use a > digital voltmeter to test? (Start engine, remove connector and put the > voltmeter's probes on the two contacts. I have a wire diagram to tell me which > wire is + & - ) > > I don't have a noid light. Is that an LED or some special light bulb? Depends on the kit. It's just a light, though. LED ones blink on and off faster, and you can sometimes see something from that. A bulb just lights up. They're cheap, though. A vehicle specific kit is like 10 or 15 bucks, and I'd rather use one than try with voltmeter. You can test with a volt meter, but the circuit works in a way you might not expect. There's always 12V on one lead, and the other is switched ground. You may, or may not, be able to see the ground switch on and off. (If you've got an analog meter, dig it out for this. Needle jumping is easy to spot.) You can also measure the resistance across the injector coils, which will let you find a shorted or open coil. You may, or may not, be able to find a spec, but they should all be close. If you can, test hot and cold. I've seen injectors that fail cold, and work hot, and vice versa. If you've an oscilloscope, this is the time to use it. (If you've always wanted one, this might be an excuse.) You can watch the waveform, compare different injectors, and see the current draw. That's very handy for things that aren't quite as dead as yours seems to be. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com Tue Oct 26 21:38:55 2010 From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:38:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] noid light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC79ECF.9030600@tx.rr.com> Have you checked compression for that cylinder? Have you checked valve movement for that cylinder? You could have a flat cam lobe. (This might be hard to do without pulling the valve cover.) >> I have a dead cylinder on our Alfa Romeo GTV6. Spark plugs are good (swapping >> them does not change the location of the dead cylinder), plug wires are good >> (normal resistance and I can get a good fat spark by holding the end 1/4" from >> the block) From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Oct 26 23:48:51 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:48:51 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] noid light In-Reply-To: <4CC79ECF.9030600@tx.rr.com> References: <4CC79ECF.9030600@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: If the injector is working, you should be able to feel it clicking at idle, or be able to hear it clicking with a stethoscope. Doug From jamesf at groupwbench.org Wed Oct 27 06:59:25 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:59:25 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Message-ID: Thanks for all the great ideas. My Impreza has towed my enclosed 4x8 trailer for years with no issues, but I'm a bit on the lazy I mean impatient side and would rather keep all my tools in the vehicle easy to access. The trailer also hauls motorcycles, and manipulating the wheel chocks and remembering 2x4s to elevate sheetrock above the floor D-rings gets tiresome. Plus the torsion suspension is sacked out and needs replacing. Good notes on the mini van. If I got one I'd not use it for people, but the transmission failures I hadn't thought about. But the more I think about what I want to do and how I want to go about it, if I'm going to get a special-purpose vehicle, a Sprinter is the only option. I'd really like to be able to work inside the vehicle, for when it's crappy out or working inside the customer's home is a not an option or will result in excessive cleanup (see lazy comment above). SPrinters are tall enough to stand up in and have a bench with chop saw, all my tools in labelled containers, and gets 20 something MPG. Initially it'd be cheaper to get a big trailer and tow vehicle, and that setup might never reach the cost of a new Sprinter (haven't seen many used), but the convenience can't be ignored. From brad.kahler at 141.com Wed Oct 27 07:12:13 2010 From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:12:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass Message-ID: I have a Cushman Truckster with a fiberglass cab that is in need of patching. It has various holes drilled in it ranging from 1/4" to about 1/2" in diameter. There are also a couple of good cracks and splits as well. The fiberglass appears to be about 3/16" to 1/4" thick throughout. I've not worked that much with fiberglass and would like to know the best way to fill the holes. I was thinking about grinding away some of the surface material to allow some fiberglass mat to lay below the surface and then apply the gel. Same with the cracks. Any suggestions? Thanks, Brad From marka at maracing.com Wed Oct 27 07:37:52 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Better construction vehicles? In-Reply-To: References: <14B7C9E4-BD99-4162-B728-193388BD1A94@groupwbench.org> <008d01cb6f16$8c3cce70$a4b66b50$@net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Jim Franklin wrote: > But the more I think about what I want to do and how I want to go about > it, if I'm going to get a special-purpose vehicle, a Sprinter is the > only option. I'd really like to be able to work inside the vehicle, for > when it's crappy out or working inside the customer's home is a not an > option or will result in excessive cleanup (see lazy comment above). > SPrinters are tall enough to stand up in and have a bench with chop saw, > all my tools in labelled containers, and gets 20 something MPG. > > Initially it'd be cheaper to get a big trailer and tow vehicle, and that > setup might never reach the cost of a new Sprinter (haven't seen many > used), but the convenience can't be ignored. For working inside, I'd go straight to an enclosed trailer. A 16' enclosed trailer will have _way_ more usable space to work in and won't get nine billion lbs of dust all over everything in the cab either. Plus, as you say, I bet it ends up at the same cost or cheaper. Mark From obaa996 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 10:16:20 2010 From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <596257.11333.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Bevel out the cracks, and be sure to drill out the ends of any cracks/splits so they don't spread any further. >I have a Cushman Truckster with a fiberglass cab that is in need of patching. >It has various holes drilled >in it ranging from 1/4" to about 1/2" in >diameter. There are also a couple of good cracks and splits as >well. The >fiberglass appears to be about 3/16" to 1/4" thick throughout. > >I've not worked that much with fiberglass and would like to know the best way to >fill the holes. I was >thinking about grinding away some of the surface >material to allow some fiberglass mat to lay below the >surface and then apply >the gel. Same with the cracks. > >Any suggestions? > >Thanks, > >Brad From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 10:56:29 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:56:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: <596257.11333.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <596257.11333.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *I was having a hard time finding a knowledgeable* *source of advice and material on fiberglass repair* *until I stumbled onto the boat repair people . .They have an amazing variety of materials and experience and they're looking for off season work. * *Some of the marine products have flexibility capabilities that solve the "stress crack" problem.* *We did a Lotus 51 formula Ford body a couple of years back and it's looking good after many races.* *Tony in Texas* On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Obaa wrote: > Bevel out the cracks, and be sure to drill out the ends of any > cracks/splits > so > they don't spread any further. > > >I have a Cushman Truckster with a > fiberglass cab that is in need of patching. > >It has various holes drilled > >in it ranging from 1/4" to about 1/2" in > >diameter. There are also a couple > of good cracks and splits as >well. The > >fiberglass appears to be about > 3/16" to 1/4" thick throughout. > > > >I've not worked that much with fiberglass > and would like to know the best way to > >fill the holes. I was >thinking > about grinding away some of the surface > >material to allow some fiberglass > mat to lay below the >surface and then apply > >the gel. Same with the cracks. > > > >Any suggestions? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Brad > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From pethier at comcast.net Wed Oct 27 11:01:36 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:01:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <146313094.84508.1288198896590.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Rough up the edges well when prepping the holes. Ripping them up with a hacksaw blade worked for me. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brad Kahler" > To: "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 8:12:13 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass > > I have a Cushman Truckster with a fiberglass cab that is in need of > patching. It has various holes drilled in it ranging from 1/4" to > about > 1/2" in diameter. There are also a couple of good cracks and splits > as > well. The fiberglass appears to be about 3/16" to 1/4" thick > throughout. > > I've not worked that much with fiberglass and would like to know the > best > way to fill the holes. I was thinking about grinding away some of > the > surface material to allow some fiberglass mat to lay below the surface > and > then apply the gel. Same with the cracks. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Brad > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From opposumking at verizon.net Wed Oct 27 12:00:55 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:00:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass References: Message-ID: Epoxy, not polyester resin. Polyester resin is the cheap, stinky, goey stuff car folk work with. Terrible stuff. Epoxy doesn't stink, isn't cheap, is a liquid, and is wonderful to work with. You'll find epoxy sold in boating stores. I tend to use West System myself. http://www.westsystem.com/ss/ You use that and some cab-o-sil thickener and you'll fix those holes up just fine. As for the cracks, grind to a bevel, fill with the cab-o-sil thickened mixture, and you'll likely have a good enough repair with no backing or cloth buildup. Don't use mat, use cloth, it's stronger. From pethier at comcast.net Wed Oct 27 12:28:16 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:28:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: <1068919764.90334.1288203975020.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <140987962.90487.1288204096330.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nolan" > To: "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:00:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass > > Epoxy, not polyester resin. Polyester resin is the cheap, stinky, > goey > stuff car folk work with. Terrible stuff. Epoxy doesn't stink, > isn't > cheap, is a liquid, and is wonderful to work with. I think it is best to stick with the same system used in the original article. If the thing is made with polyester, repair it with polyester. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From brad.kahler at 141.com Wed Oct 27 13:15:59 2010 From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:15:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: <140987962.90487.1288204096330.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1068919764.90334.1288203975020.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <140987962.90487.1288204096330.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Phil / Nolan, I have no idea what product was used in the original product. This is just for repairs to a worn out cab for a worn out Cushman. My main concern is keeping water out, looks are secondary. I bought some stuff at Lowes (I think its Elmers?) and will just use that. If this was for a Lotus like Tony or Phil has I'd be looking to have someone else do the work so that it would be done right the first time :) Thanks all! Brad On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:28 PM, wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Nolan" > > To: "Shop Talk List" > > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:00:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass > > > > Epoxy, not polyester resin. Polyester resin is the cheap, stinky, > > goey > > stuff car folk work with. Terrible stuff. Epoxy doesn't stink, > > isn't > > cheap, is a liquid, and is wonderful to work with. > > I think it is best to stick with the same system used in the original > article. If the thing is made with polyester, repair it with polyester. > > Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA From watsonm05 at comcast.net Wed Oct 27 17:56:12 2010 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:56:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] noid light References: Message-ID: <3E84F2C0332E452399028CD82FC9FB56@watsongxpejt9r> Eric, And to add to what David said about using an o'scope - when I was diagnosing my wife's Olds I just clipped the 'scope probe to the wire's insulation and viewed the signal that was inductively coupled to the probe. Since the injector is nothing but an inductor there's a fair bit of inductive spike on the signal and that's what the scope picked up. Worked for me but YMMV - I was just looking for any injector signal since I was diagnosing an intermittently dying engine - turned out to be the crank angle sensor was intermittent. I just idled the car and diddled around in the garage until the engine quit and promptly rushed over to see what the scope trace looked like. And to make matters works the special tool the GM claims is needed to adjust the sensor was about $300. I took it to the local Chevy dealer and had them replace the sensor at a total of ~$150. I actually **DIDN'T** use this opportunity to buy a special tool - I must be getting old. HTH Mark Watson 1965 Ford Falcon 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (long term restoration project) various transportation pods (still including the '92 Olds referenced above) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "Eric J Russell" Cc: "shop-talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] noid light > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Eric J Russell > wrote: >> I have a dead cylinder on our Alfa Romeo GTV6. Spark plugs are good >> (swapping >> them does not change the location of the dead cylinder), plug wires are >> good >> (normal resistance and I can get a good fat spark by holding the end 1/4" >> from >> the block) >> >> I want to check for electrical signal to the fuel injector. Can I use a >> digital voltmeter to test? (Start engine, remove connector and put the >> voltmeter's probes on the two contacts. I have a wire diagram to tell me >> which >> wire is + & - ) >> >> I don't have a noid light. Is that an LED or some special light bulb? > > Depends on the kit. It's just a light, though. LED ones blink on and > off faster, and you can sometimes see something from that. A bulb > just lights up. They're cheap, though. A vehicle specific kit is > like 10 or 15 bucks, and I'd rather use one than try with voltmeter. > > You can test with a volt meter, but the circuit works in a way you > might not expect. There's always 12V on one lead, and the other is > switched ground. You may, or may not, be able to see the ground switch > on and off. (If you've got an analog meter, dig it out for this. > Needle jumping is easy to spot.) > > You can also measure the resistance across the injector coils, which > will let you find a shorted or open coil. You may, or may not, be > able to find a spec, but they should all be close. If you can, test > hot and cold. I've seen injectors that fail cold, and work hot, and > vice versa. > > If you've an oscilloscope, this is the time to use it. (If you've > always wanted one, this might be an excuse.) You can watch the > waveform, compare different injectors, and see the current draw. > That's very handy for things that aren't quite as dead as yours seems > to be. > > > > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/watsonm05 at comcast.net From pethier at comcast.net Thu Oct 28 11:31:21 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:31:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: <297936850.149721.1288286974213.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <890381205.149826.1288287081553.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brad Kahler" > To: pethier at comcast.net > Cc: "Nolan" , "Shop Talk List" > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:15:59 PM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass > > Phil / Nolan,B > > > I have no idea what product was used in the original product. B This is > just for repairs to a worn out cab for a worn out Cushman. B My main > concern is keeping water out, looks are secondary. B I bought some > stuff at Lowes (I think its Elmers?) and will just use that. B If this > was for a Lotus like Tony or Phil has I'd be looking to have someone > else do the work so that it would be done right the first time :) > > > Thanks all! If it was a Lotus Europa like I used to have, it would be polyester. :-) I don't pretend to have done it right, but I at least left a solid base for future workers, who should not have to rip out my repairs. BTW, be sure to wear a good respirator when cutting, sanding and filing on fiberglass. Don't want those fibers in your lungs. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 2004 Suburban 8.1 2005 Lotus Elise 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Oct 28 12:56:00 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:56:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: <890381205.149826.1288287081553.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <297936850.149721.1288286974213.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <890381205.149826.1288287081553.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Is there a reasonably simple way to tell the difference between polyester and epoxy? Doug From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Oct 28 13:22:36 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:22:36 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass References: <297936850.149721.1288286974213.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <890381205.149826.1288287081553.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3AAA096588C947DCB113F290B99B974E@mde.state.md.us> >Is there a reasonably simple way to tell the difference between >polyester and epoxy? If you're talking about looking at a fiberglass fender or boat or widget that was manufactured, it almost certainly was polyester. That is what is pretty well universally used in production. It's cheap. But if you want to be sure, sand it a bit. Polyester resin has a sharp sort of acrid scent. Even years after manufacturing it'll still have the scent. Epoxy has comparatively no scent. What you will smell will be a much softer scent. Mmm, vaguely like scorched sugar. If you're trying to figure out of a repair kit is epoxy or polyester, the polyester kits are cheaper, and usually have the resin in a paint can that you scoop it out of. Epoxy kits cost 3-5 times as much, and the resin is in a can that you pour it out of, like pancake syrup. Polyester kits will dance, trying to impress you with their epoxy like qualities. Epoxy kits will say they are epoxy very clearly, and don't ever want to be confused with polyester. From eltonclark at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 13:37:51 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:37:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: References: <297936850.149721.1288286974213.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <890381205.149826.1288287081553.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: *The question of polyester vs epoxy comes up in Lotus discussions often. The Miles Wilkins book, "How to Restore Fibreglass Bodywork", was once considered the absolute bible of Lotus glass repair . I have an '88 edition in which Wilkins states: "All automotive fibreglass is polyester".* *A quick look at the wiki on epoxy indicates it been around since the 1930s. I'm curious; does anyone know the early users of epoxy resins as automotive glass-reinforced-plastic? * *Tony in Texas* On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Douglas Braun wrote: > Is there a reasonably simple way to tell the difference between > polyester and epoxy? > > Doug > ______________________________ From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Oct 28 13:59:10 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:59:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] noid light In-Reply-To: <4CC79ECF.9030600@tx.rr.com> References: <4CC79ECF.9030600@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <9A29004773DA4675B399A10BFA868304@EricJRussellPC> To update the dead cylinder/injector/noid light question: it was a faulty injector. The injector's coil measured OK with the ohm meter but it did not inject fuel. I never used or tried to make a noid light. I did probe the two terminals in the harness connector with the engine running (on 5 cylinders). As predicted, it did not show 12V but it did read some small number so I assumed electrical signals were reaching the injector. Using a mechanic's stethoscope I could easily hear the other injectors clicking with the engine idling. But not the #5 cylinder's injector. I then applied 12V+ & 12V- to the terminals on the injector. No click, no life. Injector replaced (remove intake air ducts, intake plenum with throttle body, 2 screws for each injector and lift out the fuel rail. Cut fuel hose to free injector then replace with new hose. Re-install all of above) and all is well. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 14:53:08 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:53:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Patching fiberglass In-Reply-To: <3AAA096588C947DCB113F290B99B974E@mde.state.md.us> References: <297936850.149721.1288286974213.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <890381205.149826.1288287081553.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <3AAA096588C947DCB113F290B99B974E@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Nolan wrote: >> Is there a reasonably simple way to tell the difference between >> polyester and epoxy? > > If you're talking about looking at a fiberglass fender or boat or widget > that was manufactured, it almost certainly was polyester. B That is what is > pretty well universally used in production. B It's cheap. Quite a lot of boats are made of vinylester. It's better than polyester (which isn't waterproof. That's a disadvantage for things in water...), and much cheaper than epoxy. I'd use epoxy to fix anything, though. Epoxy will adhere to the underlying resin better than the exisiting resin sticks to itself. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From rkg at teleport.com Fri Oct 29 10:37:18 2010 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:37:18 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] does somebody still make belt driven grinding wheel arbors? Message-ID: <4CCAF83E.9040803@teleport.com> Hi, I am looking at building a rotating boom arm, and realized that the core of the assembly is basically what you get with a belt driven grinding wheel arbor (shaft with a couple of pillow block bearings and a nifty mounting system). If I could find one of these, I can mount up a rotary table to one side, a flange to mount the boom to on the other, and be done. The trouble is that I can't seem to find anybody that makes/sells these anymore. I can find 'em used, but figured a new one might work out better as I wouldn't have to replace the bearings, etc. Does anybody have a link to a manufacturer/vendor of these? Failing that, how about a magic search term that would bring them up? Or are they really a thing of the past in this OSHA driven world? :-/ Thanks in advance, rkg (Richard George) From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 11:52:29 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:52:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] does somebody still make belt driven grinding wheel arbors? In-Reply-To: <4CCAF83E.9040803@teleport.com> References: <4CCAF83E.9040803@teleport.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Richard George wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking at building a rotating boom arm, and realized that the core of > the assembly is basically what you get with a belt driven grinding wheel > arbor > (shaft with a couple of pillow block bearings and a nifty mounting system). > B If I could find one of these, I can mount up a rotary table to one > side, a flange to mount the boom to on the other, and be done. B The trouble > is that I can't seem to find anybody that makes/sells these anymore. B I can > find 'em used, but figured a new one might work out better as I wouldn't > have to replace the bearings, etc. > > Does anybody have a link to a manufacturer/vendor of these? B Failing that, > how about a magic search term that would bring them up? > > Or are they really a thing of the past in this OSHA driven world? :-/ > Is http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ball-bearing-mandrels/motor-supplies/motors/ ecatalog/N-9ym the sort of thing you're talking about? I suspect they're out of fashion because direct drive grinders are cheaper, easier to deal with (no belts to futz with), have fewer vibration problems, and generally work better. Note that one end of the shaft has left-hand threads. Direction of rotation is important. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From rkg at teleport.com Fri Oct 29 12:07:59 2010 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:07:59 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] does somebody still make belt driven grinding wheel arbors? In-Reply-To: References: <4CCAF83E.9040803@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4CCB0D7F.2010207@teleport.com> David, Mandrel... Ah, that's the ticket! that's much closer to what I was looking for than I was finding - thank you for taking the time to post this! I was actually hoping for one with the metal frame as well, to use as a basis for the rig - otherwise it would be just as easy to get a chunk of keyed shaft and a couple of pillow block bearings and go from there - I'll keep looking. Thanks again, rkg (Richard George) On 10/29/2010 10:52 AM, David Scheidt wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Richard George wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I am looking at building a rotating boom arm, and realized that the core of >> the assembly is basically what you get with a belt driven grinding wheel >> arbor >> (shaft with a couple of pillow block bearings and a nifty mounting system). >> If I could find one of these, I can mount up a rotary table to one >> side, a flange to mount the boom to on the other, and be done. The trouble >> is that I can't seem to find anybody that makes/sells these anymore. I can >> find 'em used, but figured a new one might work out better as I wouldn't >> have to replace the bearings, etc. >> >> Does anybody have a link to a manufacturer/vendor of these? Failing that, >> how about a magic search term that would bring them up? >> >> Or are they really a thing of the past in this OSHA driven world? :-/ >> > Is > http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ball-bearing-mandrels/motor-supplies/motors/ecatalog/N-9ym > the sort of thing you're talking about? > > I suspect they're out of fashion because direct drive grinders are > cheaper, easier to deal with (no belts to futz with), have fewer > vibration problems, and generally work better. Note that one end of > the shaft has left-hand threads. Direction of rotation is important. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 12:12:37 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:12:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] does somebody still make belt driven grinding wheel arbors? In-Reply-To: <4CCB0D7F.2010207@teleport.com> References: <4CCAF83E.9040803@teleport.com> <4CCB0D7F.2010207@teleport.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Richard George wrote: > David, > > Mandrel... B Ah, that's the ticket! B that's much closer to what I was looking > for than I was finding - thank you for taking the time > to post this! > > I was actually hoping for one with the metal frame as well, to use as a > basis for the rig - otherwise it would be just as easy to > get a chunk of keyed shaft and a couple of pillow block bearings and go from > there - I'll keep looking. > One other place to look would be gunsmith tool suppliers. One of the few advantages of this sort of thing is that the motor isn't in the way when you're working with long pieces, like a rifle barrel. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com