From mikey at b2systems.com  Tue Jun  1 13:01:49 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 12:01:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <BA69CF51289143448A8FED576FD1A320@CARROOM>
References: <BA69CF51289143448A8FED576FD1A320@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <4C05591D.2050706@b2systems.com>

  We need more details, what kind of car, what are you doing to it, 
what...uh wait, welding...

  Welding alu is different from steel and requires some more practice, 
once you have it down its actually quite easy.  Alu will absorb a lot of 
heat so you will need more power to weld the same thickness Alu as you 
do steel but once you have your puddle too much power/heat and you will 
blow right through it, not sure how to control that with a MIG since it 
does not have a foot pedal.  I have also been told that you need a spool 
gun to MIG weld alu.  I know one guy with the smaller Lincoln MIG that 
does it without a spool gun but he complains a lot about the wire 
getting stuck in the cable or gun.

  There is a ton of pride about doing it yourself and that would be my 
first choice BUT I would make sure that you first have some scrap to 
practice on A LOT.  When it came time to work on the body of my car with 
about the same damage, I tried MIG and kept blowing through it but I was 
stubborn and kept at it until I got it done.  I had cold welds the first 
1/2 inch or so because I could not get extra power to start with and I 
did have a spool gun.

    Now I have TIG and I smile every time I have to do alu.

     mike


On 05/29/2010 09:25 PM, nogera2 at att.net wrote:
> I'm restoring an aluminum bodied car and have some tears in the aluminum. I
> have a Hobart 135 MIG welder that has worked nicely for me on steel panels
> but my tank is a carbon dioxide tank not Argon.
>   Before I invest in an Argon tank, is welding .050 aluminum with a MIG
> welder going to be about like welding 22 g  steel or am I likely to screw up
> the panels?  The tears are all less than a inch long.
>    FWIW the price of the Argon tank will be about what I would have to pay a
> local shop to do the welding  but I prefer doing it myself if possible.
>
> Thanks in advance for any information
>
> Bob Nogueira
> _____________________

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jun  2 11:56:36 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:56:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
Message-ID: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>

I have a VW Eurovan with automatic trans.  VW put ATF dipsticks on the early
ones but left them off after '96.  The trans is deliacate and needs
frequent fluid changes, and a dipstick makes that a lot easier.

But the dipsticks are no longer available from VW or any of
the VW parts sellers (yes, that includes the excellent europarts-sd).

I managed to get a dipstick tube but I need a dipstick.
(if any of you happen to have one you'd sell, let me know).

In searching on line I found a used parts locator service www.automotix.net.
They are encouraging me to become "qualified" which means sending them
my credit card and letting them change $6.95.  Supposedly that
cost is refundable and is subtracted from the sale price if there's a sale.

Is this a scam or is this legit?

Any recommendationa for good used parts services for VW parts?
I've called some big breakers and they just say "no" without
looking, even the ones that I've been told have EV's with intact
dipsticks by Eurovan folk who have visited recently.

Thanks!

Eric

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 12:22:57 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:22:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
References: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
Message-ID: <AANLkTingBOkM6cksMdflAWh0tQ8t5kVT7UbJ9dofSfBW@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com> wrote:
> I have a VW Eurovan with automatic trans. B VW put ATF dipsticks on the
early
> ones but left them off after '96. B The trans is deliacate and needs
> frequent fluid changes, and a dipstick makes that a lot easier.
>
> But the dipsticks are no longer available from VW or any of
> the VW parts sellers (yes, that includes the excellent europarts-sd).
>
> I managed to get a dipstick tube but I need a dipstick.
> (if any of you happen to have one you'd sell, let me know).
>
> In searching on line I found a used parts locator service
www.automotix.net.
> They are encouraging me to become "qualified" which means sending them
> my credit card and letting them change $6.95. B Supposedly that
> cost is refundable and is subtracted from the sale price if there's a sale.
>
> Is this a scam or is this legit?
>
> Any recommendationa for good used parts services for VW parts?
> I've called some big breakers and they just say "no" without
> looking, even the ones that I've been told have EV's with intact
> dipsticks by Eurovan folk who have visited recently.

No breaker is going to sell you a dipstick unless you pull it yourself.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shiples at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 12:26:35 2010
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 11:26:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100602112127.039d10a8@mail.comcast.net>

>Any recommendationa for good used parts services for VW parts?

I don't know if this will help, but I've used this in the past.
Bought two ENFO transmissions at different times, both
were cheap, one was good.  You're dealing with individual
yards but I found better prices than I could get locally.

http://www.car-part.com/

From lspector at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 12:28:52 2010
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:28:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
References: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilEsMSy4CNDQ9fgpv4RQOIfa5ptcQF4Bwcn6_mp@mail.gmail.com>

I've used http://car-part.com a few times. It's free, and seems to
have a pretty large # of participating vendors.

-Larry


On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com> wrote:
> I have a VW Eurovan with automatic trans.  VW put ATF dipsticks on the
early
> ones but left them off after '96.  The trans is deliacate and needs
> frequent fluid changes, and a dipstick makes that a lot easier.
>
> But the dipsticks are no longer available from VW or any of
> the VW parts sellers (yes, that includes the excellent europarts-sd).
>
> I managed to get a dipstick tube but I need a dipstick.
> (if any of you happen to have one you'd sell, let me know).
>
> In searching on line I found a used parts locator service
www.automotix.net.
> They are encouraging me to become "qualified" which means sending them
> my credit card and letting them change $6.95.  Supposedly that
> cost is refundable and is subtracted from the sale price if there's a sale.
>
> Is this a scam or is this legit?
>
> Any recommendationa for good used parts services for VW parts?
> I've called some big breakers and they just say "no" without
> looking, even the ones that I've been told have EV's with intact
> dipsticks by Eurovan folk who have visited recently.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Eric

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  2 15:36:26 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:36:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
References: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
Message-ID: <008b01cb029b$a7d965e0$f78c31a0$@rr.com>

> I managed to get a dipstick tube but I need a dipstick.

Any chance of getting a junkyard dipstick & modifying it to fit?  They even
used to sell "universal replacements"; probably still do.
http://tinyurl.com/2bdw68g

Sorry, never heard of your locator service.

-- Randall 

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jun  2 16:19:19 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:19:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <008b01cb029b$a7d965e0$f78c31a0$@rr.com>
References: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
	<008b01cb029b$a7d965e0$f78c31a0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <20100602221919.GC20202@slack>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2010 at 02:36:26PM -0700, Randall wrote:
> > I managed to get a dipstick tube but I need a dipstick.
> 
> Any chance of getting a junkyard dipstick & modifying it to fit? 

I may have to do that.  I can probably get someone to send me specs.
I have a lathe, if I can get the steel stick material I could
make one.  The problem is time: I don't have a lot of it.


> They even
> used to sell "universal replacements"; probably still do.

All the ones I found are for american cars and are short.
But I'll keep looking.

> http://tinyurl.com/2bdw68g

The "Vokswagen" that is for is a Routan, which is a rebadged
Chrysler minivan.


Eric

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 16:54:25 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:54:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <20100602221919.GC20202@slack>
References: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
	<008b01cb029b$a7d965e0$f78c31a0$@rr.com>
	<20100602221919.GC20202@slack>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinhGJpYie34eQ5rn_-qNJ-xp1tuvCzoBwatgbr5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 02, 2010 at 02:36:26PM -0700, Randall wrote:
>> > I managed to get a dipstick tube but I need a dipstick.
>>
>> Any chance of getting a junkyard dipstick & modifying it to fit?
>
> I may have to do that. B I can probably get someone to send me specs.
> I have a lathe, if I can get the steel stick material I could
> make one. B The problem is time: I don't have a lot of it.
>
>
>> They even
>> used to sell "universal replacements"; probably still do.
>
> All the ones I found are for american cars and are short.
> But I'll keep looking.
>

84" -- seven feet! -- is short?

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cgi-bin/ryderfp/products/srm/oid/134083/erm
/product_detail.jsp?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=prod
uct

(And, yeah, they really are seven feet long. Moeller makes  a bunch of
these things.  A good autoparts place will have a catalog, or google
them, and call them.)

>> http://tinyurl.com/2bdw68g
>
> The "Vokswagen" that is for is a Routan, which is a rebadged
> Chrysler minivan.
>
>
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation B $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  2 17:02:54 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:02:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <20100602221919.GC20202@slack>
References: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
	<008b01cb029b$a7d965e0$f78c31a0$@rr.com>
	<20100602221919.GC20202@slack>
Message-ID: <00dd01cb02a7$bd018ae0$3704a0a0$@rr.com>

> The "Vokswagen" that is for is a Routan, which is a rebadged
> Chrysler minivan.

Sorry, I just thought it looked long enough to be adaptable.  Didn't mean to
say it would fit out of the box.

-- Randall 

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Jun  3 13:56:48 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:56:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] part compatibility book (?)
Message-ID: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>

I am sure this item is available online somewhere, but I don't have a clue what it might be called............

When I needed to get a bumper and new boot lid for my kid's car, the guy at the boneyard pulled out this huge, maybe 10 inches thick, book to look up if the bumper on a diff year but same model car, would work on my kid's car. 

Is this resource available, online, to the average, learning as I go, but still clueless, gearhead in training?

Thanks

Tim
Clueless but always learning

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Thu Jun  3 14:31:31 2010
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:31:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] part compatibility book (?)
In-Reply-To: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>
References: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20100603162928.01f3dcc8@pop.nycap.rr.com>

Hollander interchange is the industry standard.

available on line for about $600 a year.

you can buy older  printed volumes on ebay for $50-75, which work 
fine since you wont be needing any parts for a 2010 for quite a while.

Skip

At 03:56 PM 6/3/2010, you wrote:
>I am sure this item is available online somewhere, but I don't have 
>a clue what it might be called............
>
>When I needed to get a bumper and new boot lid for my kid's car, the 
>guy at the boneyard pulled out this huge, maybe 10 inches thick, 
>book to look up if the bumper on a diff year but same model car, 
>would work on my kid's car.
>
>Is this resource available, online, to the average, learning as I 
>go, but still clueless, gearhead in training?
>
>Thanks
>
>Tim
>Clueless but always learning
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
http://www.volvoskip.com/

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jun  3 14:51:58 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:51:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] part compatibility book (?)
In-Reply-To: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>
References: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100603164831.04444468@cox.net>

At 03:56 PM 6/3/2010, Tim wrote:

 >I am sure this item is available online somewhere, but I don't have 
a clue what
 >it might be called............

 >When I needed to get a bumper and new boot lid for my kid's car, the guy at
 >the boneyard pulled out this huge, maybe 10 inches thick, book to 
look up if the
 >bumper on a diff year but same model car, would work on my kid's car.

 >Is this resource available, online, to the average, learning as I 
go, but still
 >clueless, gearhead in training?

Tim,

The book you're talking about should be the Hollander Interchange.  They are
available to the public but the books are quite expensive.

Here's their web site:

https://hollanderinterchange.net

Unfortunately, they don't appear to offer a DIYer subscription to an 
online service
like All Data does.

John



>Thanks
>
>Tim
>Clueless but always learning
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Jun  3 15:53:07 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 17:53:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] part compatibility book (?)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20100603162928.01f3dcc8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20100603162928.01f3dcc8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0L3G004NYKSUYOG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I agree with the previous responses about Hollander.  Another 
approach is to go to a site like www.car-part.com and enter the 
specifics of what you need.  It will return a list of applicable 
parts from yards all around the country.  Usually, you can derive the 
information you want from this list.  And who knows, it might even 
find you one to purchase.  This works for major parts that one would 
typically get from a salvage yard, but not for smaller stuff.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun  3 16:08:27 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 15:08:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] part compatibility book (?)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20100603162928.01f3dcc8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20100603162928.01f3dcc8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <02d401cb0369$4e8883d0$eb998b70$@rr.com>

> you can buy older  printed volumes on ebay for $50-75, which work
> fine since you wont be needing any parts for a 2010 for quite a while.

Also, most libraries will have at least some older copies.  My library won't
loan them out (since they frequently disappear), but it's easy enough to
visit when I need to look something up.

Doesn't Mitchell also offer an interchange guide, similar to the Hollander?

One other caveat, the Hollander sometimes misses some of the finer points of
parts interchange.  It claimed that a Fiero transmission would fit my early
Citation; which it would if I also replaced the shifter & cables.  But the
Fiero shifter wouldn't fit without some other modifications, and so on.

-- Randall 

From tputland at charter.net  Fri Jun  4 17:41:04 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:41:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] part compatibility book (?)
In-Reply-To: <20100603155648.U2DQD.4190960.root@mp08>
Message-ID: <20100604194105.KC6M9.7214222.root@mp17>

Thanks for the input all.

Tim


---- Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote: 

=============
I am sure this item is available online somewhere, but I don't have a clue what it might be called............

When I needed to get a bumper and new boot lid for my kid's car, the guy at the boneyard pulled out this huge, maybe 10 inches thick, book to look up if the bumper on a diff year but same model car, would work on my kid's car. 

Is this resource available, online, to the average, learning as I go, but still clueless, gearhead in training?

Thanks

Tim
Clueless but always learning
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From shop at justbrits.com  Sat Jun  5 07:14:46 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 08:14:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] used parts locator services
In-Reply-To: <20100602221919.GC20202@slack>
References: <20100602175636.GB20202@slack>
	<008b01cb029b$a7d965e0$f78c31a0$@rr.com>
	<20100602221919.GC20202@slack>
Message-ID: <4C0A4DC6.6060004@justbrits.com>

<< I may have to do that. I can probably get someone to send me specs.
I have a lathe, if I can get the steel stick material I could make one. >>

"Sounds" reasonable, Eric.

<< The problem is time: I don't have a lot of it. >>
 
Never seems like anybody does <G> !!!  
So it seems to me that you have two [2] choices:
1]  Make time <G>;
2]  PAY a shop to make it <F>.

Ref the latter, since you DO have a lathe methinks you
will ALWAYS have the niggling thought in the back of
your mind:  "I coulda done it and  NOT spent the MONEY.".

So how is your Catch 22 today ??   LOL

Ed

Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com
[with LOTS of 1st time offers for Listers in the
For Sale areas which ARE soon to go to fleabay -:(.]
[due to a HD Death, the JH Tail lite lenses IS avail]

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jun  6 12:00:07 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 14:00:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>

Hey gang, boy do I feel dumb.

I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"

http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-angle-finder-1028.html

I'm trying to figure out how to read it.  The main protractor is in 
5deg increments.  A couple of months ago I did a google search for how to read
something and found a very good description of how to read the vernier on
this particular angle finder.

Well today I started to put down new base board molding and grabbed the
angle finder, and measured the first corner.  But for the live of me I can't
get an closer to the angle than the 5 degree increments.

Anyone have a link to a site that tells you how to read this tool or something
similar?

TIA

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Sun Jun  6 13:01:20 2010
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:01:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>

John,  you are probably doing it the hard way.  Have you tried to cope the 
corners, it saved me hours and it still looks perfect after 10 years.

http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60462

Mark
Nashville

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 1:00 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder


Hey gang, boy do I feel dumb.

I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"

http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-angle-finder-1028.html

I'm trying to figure out how to read it.  The main protractor is in
5deg increments.  A couple of months ago I did a google search for how to 
read
something and found a very good description of how to read the vernier on
this particular angle finder.

Well today I started to put down new base board molding and grabbed the
angle finder, and measured the first corner.  But for the live of me I can't
get an closer to the angle than the 5 degree increments.

Anyone have a link to a site that tells you how to read this tool or 
something
similar?

TIA

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mark at nashvilletn.org

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sun Jun  6 13:52:20 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 12:52:20 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C0BFC74.6070304@verizon.net>

Well, I don't feel so bad any more.  I have one, and every time I try to 
use it it makes me feel like an idiot.  I have almost thrown it away 
more than once.

One suggestion:  try using it to read some "known" angles, both inside 
and outside, and see what it indicates. (Drafting triangles, your table 
saw miter gauge, etc.)   Then go from there.

Other than that, I'm not going to be much help today.


John T. Blair wrote:
> Hey gang, boy do I feel dumb.
>
> I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-angle-finder-1028.html
>
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to read it. The main protractor is in 5deg
> increments. A couple of months ago I did a google search for how to read
> something and found a very good description of how to read the vernier on
> this particular angle finder.
>
> Well today I started to put down new base board molding and grabbed the
> angle finder, and measured the first corner. But for the live of me I can't
> get an closer to the angle than the 5 degree increments.
>
> Anyone have a link to a site that tells you how to read this tool or
> something
> similar?
>
> TIA
>
> John
>
>
>
> John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone: (757) 495-8229
>
> 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
> 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III
> 65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin: www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at verizon.net

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Sun Jun  6 14:33:51 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:33:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
	<41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <4C0C062F.30908@tx.rr.com>

I've seen this done on TV how-to shows.  It seemed like the easy way out 
but apparently it works and even has some advantages.
The other thing is to put the molding on and then caulk the gaps.  Then 
when you paint it it looks seamless.

Back to the original question- if you are asking about how to read a 
vernier then it should work the same as a vernier caliper or something 
similar.  IOW the main scale has a certain increment, the vernier scale 
has that increment broken into smaller pieces but with one scale 
expanded a bit WRT the other one.  You look at the vernier and find the 
2 opposing lines that match up the closest,  whatever the number is 
associated with that mark you then add to the measurement you get from 
the main scale.  I don't know if that harbor freight thing works the 
same way or not.

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/PVB/Harrison/Vernier/Vernier.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernier_scale

> John,  you are probably doing it the hard way.  Have you tried to cope the 
> corners, it saved me hours and it still looks perfect after 10 years.
>
> http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60462

From shop at justbrits.com  Sun Jun  6 15:27:49 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:27:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
	<41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <4C0C12D5.1080706@justbrits.com>

<< John, you are probably doing it the hard way. Have you tried to cope the
corners, it saved me hours and it still looks perfect after 10 years. >>

Yep Mark, you "hit the nail on the head" !!  Bad pun - sorry.
NOT !!   LOL

Also chaps, if the need for caulk is desired put it IN the joint
FIRST and then tap end of board being 'joined'.  Excess will
be pushed out and is easily cleaned-up with a rag/finger/paper
towel/etc. .

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com
[with LOTS of 1st time offers for Listers in the
For Sale areas which ARE soon to go to fleabay -:(.]

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun  6 16:08:57 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:08:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <007e01cb05c4$dc51fa40$0301a8c0@randall>

> I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-a
> ngle-finder-1028.html
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how to read it.  The main protractor is in 
> 5deg increments. 

Are you sure about that?  The photo on the HF site doesn't have enough
resolution to be sure, but I think I see lines every degree on the fixed
main scale, with longer lines for the 10 degree marks.

So, first you read the appropriate number revealed in the window, then count
the number of lines from the matching longer line to the "0" line on the
vernier.  Adding those together gives a reading in degrees.

To get finer resolution, you look either right or left on the moving
vernier, to find the mark that lines up closest with a mark on the main
scale.  The vernier has marks every 10 minutes and it's legend is in
minutes.  So that value in minutes (1/60 of a degree) gets added or
subtracted from the value above.

But I'd be surprised as all heck if that thing is really good to even a
degree, let alone 10 minutes.  The pivots look to be simple rivets, not
exactly precision components; and polypropylene is not exactly the most
dimensionally stable material in the world.  I note there are NO accuracy
specifications given <G>

Randall

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Jun  6 16:18:54 2010
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 23:18:54 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C0C1ECE.2080806@landform.co.uk>

John T. Blair wrote:
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to read it.  The main protractor is in 
> 5deg increments.  A couple of months ago I did a google search for how 
> to read
> something and found a very good description of how to read the vernier on
> this particular angle finder.
>
Bought one of these last year for a contract with a lot of awkward mitres:

http://tinyurl.com/349pyus

Not regretted it for a minute, even find myself looking forward to 
tricky jobs that would have gone right to the end of the list before...

Nick

From shop at justbrits.com  Sun Jun  6 17:30:45 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 18:30:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <4C0C1ECE.2080806@landform.co.uk>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
	<4C0C1ECE.2080806@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4C0C2FA5.6080707@justbrits.com>

Nick:
 
<<Bought one of these last year for a contract with a lot of awkward 
mitres: >>

I would have to say YOU bought an "Instrument" whereas Mr.
Blair purchased something that *MIGHT* be good as a paperweight [used on 
one SINGLE piece of paper in a 1/64th mph windstorm].
Like comparing an apple to a ugli <G> [ or A to U for those that do
not work crossword puzzles <VBG>] !!!

But a coping saw is still the best "tool for the job" [especially in
shaping baseboard trim as in this case<G>].

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com
[with LOTS of 1st time offers for Listers in the
For Sale areas which ARE soon to go to fleabay -:(.]

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jun  6 17:36:46 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 18:36:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
	<41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <4C0C310E.7060205@hornesystemstx.com>

I agree with Mark. Not only does it go faster, but you don't even need 
to know the angle. Coped joints stay tighter longer than mitered inside 
joints. For outside joints you still need to miter them. When you cope 
joints have the short piece of trim, such as in the corner, next to a 
door be the straight cut piece, then cope the longer piece to it. 
Another helpful hint is if you need to cope a piece of trim shorter than 
a couple of feet, cope the end of a longer piece, then cut it to length, 
it makes it easier to hold onto.

Coped joints also work on crown molding, but you really have to cut a 
steep cut on the back!

If there are defects in the joint of wood to be stained where you don't 
want to use caulk, place a piece of sand paper grit up on a piece of 
matching trim and sand the end of the coped piece a little to make it fit.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Mark, On 6/6/2010 2:01 PM:
> John,  you are probably doing it the hard way.  Have you tried to cope the 
> corners, it saved me hours and it still looks perfect after 10 years.
>
> http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60462
>
> Mark
> Nashville
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 1:00 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
>
>
> Hey gang, boy do I feel dumb.
>
> I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-angle-finder-1028.html
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to read it.  The main protractor is in
> 5deg increments.  A couple of months ago I did a google search for how to 
> read
> something and found a very good description of how to read the vernier on
> this particular angle finder.
>
> Well today I started to put down new base board molding and grabbed the
> angle finder, and measured the first corner.  But for the live of me I can't
> get an closer to the angle than the 5 degree increments.
>
> Anyone have a link to a site that tells you how to read this tool or 
> something
> similar?
>
> TIA
>
> John
>
>
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>            48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>       75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                         65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mark at nashvilletn.org
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jun  6 17:41:06 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:41:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <4C0C12D5.1080706@justbrits.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
	<41DF09D731A345B6B06E42BD6939B2C6@Dell9200>
	<4C0C12D5.1080706@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606193429.047ebec8@cox.net>

At 05:27 PM 6/6/2010, Shop at \" Just Brits \" wrote:

 >>John, you are probably doing it the hard way. Have you tried to cope the
 >>corners, it saved me hours and it still looks perfect after 10 years. >>

 >Yep Mark, you "hit the nail on the head" !!  Bad pun - sorry.  NOT !!   LOL

I've tryed to cope a joint before.  I thought that was a much if not more work
than using a compound miter saw.

Last time I did this, I did about 7 rooms.  All I had was the cheap fixed miter
box and a back saw.  This time, my neighbor offered is powered compound
miter saw.  It sure made short work of the cuts!!!  Love the saw.

John


John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sun Jun  6 18:32:35 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 17:32:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C0C3E23.8010001@earthlink.net>

John - I got the same item several years ago. It isn't very accurate in 
terms of markings. About the only thing I use it for is to lock it at an 
angle I want to duplicate then take it to the miter saw and set the saw 
at the same angle.

For molding, I also recommend coping the joint. Put the first piece in 
with two square ends. Cope the end of each adjoining section and test 
the fit, then cut for length. Continue around the room. It makes a nice 
quick installation once you get the hang of it.

Another trick with angles is to cut the molding slightly long and get 
the first end right. Then get the angle on the second end right, with 
the piece still a bit long. Once you have both ends right, you have the 
setting on your saw already perfect, so you can just trim a bit more off 
the second end.

The only place angle really matters is outside corners. Fit the first 
piece with a 45 deg cut. Have a scrap with 45 deg cuts on both ends and 
test the angle for the other side of the corner. You can then tell if 
the angle is greater or less than 45. Try and come close using the 
paragraph above.

Brian

John T. Blair wrote:
> Hey gang, boy do I feel dumb.
>
> I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-angle-finder-1028.html 
>
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to read it. The main protractor is in 
> 5deg increments. A couple of months ago I did a google search for how 
> to read
> something and found a very good description of how to read the vernier on
> this particular angle finder.
>
> Well today I started to put down new base board molding and grabbed the
> angle finder, and measured the first corner. But for the live of me I 
> can't
> get an closer to the angle than the 5 degree increments.
>
> Anyone have a link to a site that tells you how to read this tool or 
> something
> similar?
>
> TIA
>
> John
>
>
>
> John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone: (757) 495-8229
>
> 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
> 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III
> 65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin: www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Jun  7 14:31:43 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:31:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C0D572F.3000300@comcast.net>

On 6/6/2010 2:00 PM, John T. Blair wrote:
> Hey gang, boy do I feel dumb.
>
> I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-angle-finder-1028.html 
>
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to read it.  The main protractor is in 
> 5deg increments.  A couple of months ago I did a google search for how 
> to read
> something and found a very good description of how to read the vernier on
> this particular angle finder.
>
> Well today I started to put down new base board molding and grabbed the
> angle finder, and measured the first corner.  But for the live of me I 
> can't
> get an closer to the angle than the 5 degree increments.
>
> Anyone have a link to a site that tells you how to read this tool or 
> something
> similar?
>
> TIA
>
> John

Just read the angle at zero mark and ignore the vernier.  That should 
give you the angle in degrees.  If you want you can guess the fractional 
degrees, though for wood working degrees is close enough.  Most likely 
the saw doesn't have that precise of an angle setting.  Even if it did, 
wood moves with moisture and temperature so if you got it perfect it 
will be off the next day.

Peter T.
>
>
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Jun  7 14:36:00 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:36:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <4C0C3E23.8010001@earthlink.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
	<4C0C3E23.8010001@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4C0D5830.8050909@comcast.net>

On 6/6/2010 8:32 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
> The only place angle really matters is outside corners. Fit the first 
> piece with a 45 deg cut. Have a scrap with 45 deg cuts on both ends 
> and test the angle for the other side of the corner. You can then tell 
> if the angle is greater or less than 45. Try and come close using the 
> paragraph above.
Then glue the joing and tap on the corner to close up any gap.

Peter T.
>
> Brian
>
> John T. Blair wrote:
>> Hey gang, boy do I feel dumb.
>>
>> I purchased a "protractor" or "Inside/Outside Angle Finder"
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/web-exclusive-sale/multipurpose-angle-finder-1028.html 
>>
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out how to read it. The main protractor is in 
>> 5deg increments. A couple of months ago I did a google search for how 
>> to read
>> something and found a very good description of how to read the 
>> vernier on
>> this particular angle finder.
>>
>> Well today I started to put down new base board molding and grabbed the
>> angle finder, and measured the first corner. But for the live of me I 
>> can't
>> get an closer to the angle than the 5 degree increments.
>>
>> Anyone have a link to a site that tells you how to read this tool or 
>> something
>> similar?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net
>> Va. Beach, Va
>> Phone: (757) 495-8229
>>
>> 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>> 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III
>> 65 Rambler Classic
>>
>> Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan
>> Bricklin: www.bricklin.org
>>
>> If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
>> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Jun  7 16:06:21 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 18:06:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inside/outside angle finder
In-Reply-To: <4C0D572F.3000300@comcast.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100606135519.047ee7c8@cox.net>
	<4C0D572F.3000300@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100607180530.044c43b8@cox.net>

Thanks to all that replied to my question.

I can at least read it to the degree, which is all I need.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jdrush at enter.net  Tue Jun  8 06:53:28 2010
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:53:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Funny wrench request
In-Reply-To: <019d01caf90f$db310910$91931b30$@rr.com>
References: <009c01caf86a$279fdb10$76df9130$@rr.com>
	<019d01caf90f$db310910$91931b30$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4C0E3D48.3010902@enter.net>

I think Armstrong has what you and other LBC lovers are looking for.
https://www.armstrongtools.com/catalog/products.jsp?groupID=848

On 5/21/2010 2:03 PM, Randall wrote:
> Thanks to all for the suggestions.  Looks like the QuadBox is the best
> solution available, so I'm going to run over to my local Ace in a bit and
> see if they have one in stock.
>
> In case anyone is interested, here is a shot of the location in question,
> with the nut already removed.  The nut in the foreground is actually 1/16"
> smaller than what should be in there, so you can see that the flange is
> quite close to the nut.
> http://tinyurl.com/2bzwo3e
>
> And the angle of that shot makes the area seem rather roomier than it is,
> here's another one (other side, with the pan/flange removed) that better
> shows how close the frame member is:
> http://tinyurl.com/2au5dxc

From d_kroninger at hotmail.com  Tue Jun  8 11:30:12 2010
From: d_kroninger at hotmail.com (Dan Kroninger)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 12:30:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
Message-ID: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>

Shop talkers,



Hey there, I think this is my first time posting to this forum, but I have
been following along for a while.  It appears that you all know what you are
talking about



Anyway, my daily driver Honda Civic has just hit 150K.  This is my third civic
and both previous civics made it to about 150K and then the nickel and diming
started, so I am starting to look for a new(er) car.  The car that has really
caught my eye recently is the 07-09 Subaru Legacy Spec B.  Lots of HP, all
wheel drive, sport suspension, etc etc.  The part that concerns me is the
turbo.  The brochures state that all cars with turbos must be run on 91 octane
or higher.



I have read several times that premium is only stated because it allows the
manufacturer to post higher stats (ie HP, torque, accel times, etc), however
the car can be run on lower octanes just as well.  The only exception listed
is turbos, but no one says why.  Does anyone know if this is true?  Why must
91 be used?  Will it harm the car to use lower?



As mentioned above, I have been driving cheap civics for almost my whole
driving career.  I have nothing agains premium as I use it in my Datsun, but I
will be driving the new car a lot more, which equals higher cost at the pump
and thinner wallets.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Dan Kroninger

Dairyland Datsuns

68 Datsun 1600

01 Honda Civic

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL
:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Jun  8 12:06:41 2010
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:06:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000f01cb0735$5ce60270$16b20750$@com>

Dan,

Forced induction effectively increases the compression ratio of the car and
makes detonation more likely.  The higher octane fuel is necessary to
prevent detonation under boost.  You can probably run 87 octane in your
turbo'd car to no detriment so long as you stay out of the boost, but what's
the point of buying a stiffly-sprung, 300 HP, AWD sedan if you're never
going to get into the skinny pedal?

So my $.02 is that you should run premium fuel in a turbocharged (or
supercharged) engine.  But don't let the extra $.20/gallon dissuade you too
much if you really like the car.  Sometimes you've just got to pay to play.

Good Luck,

-Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dan Kroninger
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 1:30 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos

Shop talkers,

Hey there, I think this is my first time posting to this forum, but I have
been following along for a while.  It appears that you all know what you are
talking about

Anyway, my daily driver Honda Civic has just hit 150K.  This is my third
civic
and both previous civics made it to about 150K and then the nickel and
diming
started, so I am starting to look for a new(er) car.  The car that has
really
caught my eye recently is the 07-09 Subaru Legacy Spec B.  Lots of HP, all
wheel drive, sport suspension, etc etc.  The part that concerns me is the
turbo.  The brochures state that all cars with turbos must be run on 91
octane
or higher.

I have read several times that premium is only stated because it allows the
manufacturer to post higher stats (ie HP, torque, accel times, etc), however
the car can be run on lower octanes just as well.  The only exception listed
is turbos, but no one says why.  Does anyone know if this is true?  Why must
91 be used?  Will it harm the car to use lower?

As mentioned above, I have been driving cheap civics for almost my whole
driving career.  I have nothing agains premium as I use it in my Datsun, but
I
will be driving the new car a lot more, which equals higher cost at the pump
and thinner wallets.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dan Kroninger
Dairyland Datsuns
68 Datsun 1600
01 Honda Civic

From tputland at charter.net  Tue Jun  8 12:07:43 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 11:07:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100608140743.RQH71.7367298.root@mp17>

Hey Dan. You shouldn't need to run premium in your Roadster since we did your valves--if you are still getting pinging, we should check your timing as I don't remember if we did that or not. I thought we had. 

Also, if you get the Legacy, there is 110 octane available at the citgo a couple blocks from my place.    ;-)

Please post replies to the whole list all as I am curious about this subject. 

Thanks.

Tim


---- Dan Kroninger <d_kroninger at hotmail.com> wrote: 

=============
Shop talkers,



Hey there, I think this is my first time posting to this forum, but I have
been following along for a while.  It appears that you all know what you are
talking about



Anyway, my daily driver Honda Civic has just hit 150K.  This is my third civic
and both previous civics made it to about 150K and then the nickel and diming
started, so I am starting to look for a new(er) car.  The car that has really
caught my eye recently is the 07-09 Subaru Legacy Spec B.  Lots of HP, all
wheel drive, sport suspension, etc etc.  The part that concerns me is the
turbo.  The brochures state that all cars with turbos must be run on 91 octane
or higher.



I have read several times that premium is only stated because it allows the
manufacturer to post higher stats (ie HP, torque, accel times, etc), however
the car can be run on lower octanes just as well.  The only exception listed
is turbos, but no one says why.  Does anyone know if this is true?  Why must
91 be used?  Will it harm the car to use lower?



As mentioned above, I have been driving cheap civics for almost my whole
driving career.  I have nothing agains premium as I use it in my Datsun, but I
will be driving the new car a lot more, which equals higher cost at the pump
and thinner wallets.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Dan Kroninger

Dairyland Datsuns

68 Datsun 1600

01 Honda Civic

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL
:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From ericm at lne.com  Tue Jun  8 12:15:57 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 11:15:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100608181557.GB3658@slack>

On Tue, Jun 08, 2010 at 12:30:12PM -0500, Dan Kroninger wrote:
 
> Anyway, my daily driver Honda Civic has just hit 150K.  This is my third civic
> and both previous civics made it to about 150K and then the nickel and diming
> started, so I am starting to look for a new(er) car.  The car that has really
> caught my eye recently is the 07-09 Subaru Legacy Spec B.  Lots of HP, all
> wheel drive, sport suspension, etc etc.  The part that concerns me is the
> turbo.  The brochures state that all cars with turbos must be run on 91 octane
> or higher.

Most turbo cars require premium.
Turbocharging puts a lot of heat and pressure in the engine
and that can cause detonation.  That will blow up a turbocharged
engine real quick.

Modern turbo cars will adjust timing and boost and mixture
when they detect knock.  And most cars will be tunes to accept
regular even if they don't perform as well with it.
But you will be closer to the edge of the tuning enveolpe that
the ECU is set up for.  If you run regular and you hammer on it
there's a greater chance of blowing up the motor.

And it'll be significantly down on peak power.

I've run my turbo Eclipse on regular on long freeeway trips
with no problem.  But the car cost me $2500 and if it blows up so what?
And the Eclipse engine is well known to be bulletproof if left stock.
My new Mazdaspeed3 always gets premium.  It'll cost a lot more
to fix if I blow the engine and they are not as robust as Eclise
motors.  It's cheap insurance.

You will also want to replace the oil frequently and use synthetic
in a turbo car.   Turbos make a lot of heat and the oil that goes
through the turbo gets real hot.  I do mine at 5k miles.

I love turbo cars but they are not cheap to run.  
Besides gas and oil you'll be going through tires because you'll
want the sticky sport rubber to keep the thing on the road.
I'm on my third set of tires on the MS3 and I have 26k miles on it.

If you want cheap look at the non-turbo version of a turbo car (Mazda3
wagon, Subaru Outback) and then buy cheap used sport suspension from
the turbo car guys who have replaced theirs with something even sportier.

Eric

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Jun  8 12:20:19 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 14:20:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
References: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3ECD8B0D4BDB4DDF820CC5DC5EDD844F@mde.state.md.us>

Generally speaking, because of the turbo boost the effects of pinging are 
far more dramatic.  You'll hole a piston far quicker in a turbo engine than 
a non-turbo engine.

That said, most have a knock sensor that knocks back the ignition timing, or 
kills turbo boost.  Which makes the car as fun to drive as watching mold 
grow on a shower wall.  Defeats the turbo.  Some are soft, some are very 
abrupt.  It depends entirely on the car.

Current  turbo beast drives quite well and docilely on 89 octane gas. 
Previous one was hyper demanding of high octane fuel, and would fall flat on 
its face when romped and ping was detected with 89 octane.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jun  8 13:37:28 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <20100608181557.GB3658@slack>
References: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
	<20100608181557.GB3658@slack>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1006081528191.9391@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Eric Murray wrote:
> Most turbo cars require premium.  Turbocharging puts a lot of heat and 
> pressure in the engine and that can cause detonation.  That will blow 
> up a turbocharged engine real quick.

    Luckily it's a Subaru, so he can run regular gas without it blowing up 
any sooner than it otherwise would've ;)

    Both my Subarus ( 2000 Legacy and 2003 WRX ) blew their headgaskets 
before 60,000 miles, and I'm not nearly alone.  Something like half of 
that generation Legacy production with the EJ25 suffered a blown HG inside 
80k.  At least Subaru warranted that one... the WRX (EJ20T) they just 
disowned, and dared me to sue them.

--
  David Hillman

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jun  8 14:00:00 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:00:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <3ECD8B0D4BDB4DDF820CC5DC5EDD844F@mde.state.md.us>
References: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
	<3ECD8B0D4BDB4DDF820CC5DC5EDD844F@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <4C0EA140.8060907@milleredp.com>

On 6/8/2010 11:20 AM, Nolan wrote:
> Generally speaking, because of the turbo boost the effects of pinging
> are far more dramatic. You'll hole a piston far quicker in a turbo
> engine than a non-turbo engine.
>
> That said, most have a knock sensor that knocks back the ignition
> timing, or kills turbo boost. Which makes the car as fun to drive as
> watching mold grow on a shower wall. Defeats the turbo. Some are soft,
> some are very abrupt. It depends entirely on the car.

With some vehicles (normally-aspirated as well as blower) you will hit a 
point in the engine-protection strategy where the resultant reduction in 
spark timing, etc. ends up costing you big-time in driveability or fuel 
economy.

My E39 M5 loves 100AKI and was quite happy on Euro-market 98RON back on 
the Euro Delivery trip, on the factory tune there was a noticeable drop 
in throttle response just going from the 92AKI that used to be 
California crap-premium to the adulterated 91AKI crap-premium we get now 
(or a bad tank of 92, or the occasional tank of 89.)  It's got a 
Powerchips flash in it now that is marginally better.

John.

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jun  8 14:17:11 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:17:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <4C0EA140.8060907@milleredp.com>
References: <SNT104-W40937206F2281B091DBB4A9BD60@phx.gbl>
	<3ECD8B0D4BDB4DDF820CC5DC5EDD844F@mde.state.md.us>
	<4C0EA140.8060907@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>

> With some vehicles (normally-aspirated as well as blower) you will hit a
> point in the engine-protection strategy where the resultant reduction in
> spark timing, etc. ends up costing you big-time in driveability or fuel
> economy.

I'm not suggesting you use it unless you need it, but I'd note that the 
$.20/gallon extra for premium is, at current $3/gallon gas prices, a 
smaller increment as a percentage of the total price than at pretty much 
any time (well, except 2008) prior.


John.

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jun  8 14:54:21 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:54:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>

I agree.  In fact, I built a stupid little web-sheet for people to see how 
much it really means in cost difference.

Here is the link (It's on my website, so it's safe.)

http://www.megageek.com/gas/Page1.htm

But the cost difference between $2.69 a gallon, and $3.00 a gallon 
(current gas prices by me,) if you drive 16k miles in a year and you get 
25 MPG, then it will only cost you $198.4 dollars A YEAR more for the 
premium.

Feel free to use the link to put in the numbers for the car you a looking 
at so you can see what it will really cost you (I don't know how much you 
drive a year or what milage the car gets.)

The app also puts it into perspective for how to regain that cost.  For 
instance, if you stayed home from the movies with you and your SO 5 times 
a year, you saved that cost!  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/08/2010 16:39

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos






> With some vehicles (normally-aspirated as well as blower) you will hit a
> point in the engine-protection strategy where the resultant reduction in
> spark timing, etc. ends up costing you big-time in driveability or fuel
> economy.

I'm not suggesting you use it unless you need it, but I'd note that the 
$.20/gallon extra for premium is, at current $3/gallon gas prices, a 
smaller increment as a percentage of the total price than at pretty much 
any time (well, except 2008) prior.


John.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun  8 17:25:35 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:25:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>

> But the cost difference between $2.69 a gallon, and $3.00 a gallon 
> (current gas prices by me,) if you drive 16k miles in a year 
> and you get 
> 25 MPG, then it will only cost you $198.4 dollars A YEAR more for the 
> premium.

Unless of course, using premium means you actually use less fuel for the
same distance.  Pretty much all modern cars use a knock sensor to measure
fuel octane, and advance the spark accordingly.  More octane means more
advance which usually means better fuel mileage.

Even my 1970 Audi got better fuel mileage on premium, though I never could
explain why.

Randall

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Jun  8 18:43:24 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 19:43:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>
	<037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <4C0EE3AC.8040803@hornesystemstx.com>

Someone a month or so ago was talking about getting higher mileage oh 
higher test fuel than their car required. I tried that on my 2008 CRV 
and go exactly the same mileage for several tanks before I went back to 
the recommended fuel. I guess it all depends on how the computers are 
set up and some physical factors with the engine.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall, On 6/8/2010 6:25 PM:
>> But the cost difference between $2.69 a gallon, and $3.00 a gallon 
>> (current gas prices by me,) if you drive 16k miles in a year 
>> and you get 
>> 25 MPG, then it will only cost you $198.4 dollars A YEAR more for the 
>> premium.
>>     
>
> Unless of course, using premium means you actually use less fuel for the
> same distance.  Pretty much all modern cars use a knock sensor to measure
> fuel octane, and advance the spark accordingly.  More octane means more
> advance which usually means better fuel mileage.
>
> Even my 1970 Audi got better fuel mileage on premium, though I never could
> explain why.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Tue Jun  8 19:32:03 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:32:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>
	<037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <4C0EEF13.7070006@tx.rr.com>

My current car is supposed to get better mileage with premium.  I've 
checked my mileage for 10k miles.  Most of this was with regular octane 
but I did put in high octane for about 7 tankfulls and I could not prove 
from my statistics that I got better mileage with premium.  I did expect 
it to be a little better, maybe not equal to the increase in cost.  
Granted it is not possible the way I drive to do a real scientific long 
term test, so I'm not drawing any conclusions based on my own experience.

>> But the cost difference between $2.69 a gallon, and $3.00 a gallon 
>> (current gas prices by me,) if you drive 16k miles in a year 
>> and you get 
>> 25 MPG, then it will only cost you $198.4 dollars A YEAR more for the 
>> premium.
>>     
>
> Unless of course, using premium means you actually use less fuel for the
> same distance.  Pretty much all modern cars use a knock sensor to measure
> fuel octane, and advance the spark accordingly.  More octane means more
> advance which usually means better fuel mileage.

From shop at justbrits.com  Tue Jun  8 20:54:34 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 21:54:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <4C0EEF13.7070006@tx.rr.com>
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>
	<037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall> <4C0EEF13.7070006@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4C0F026A.3070903@justbrits.com>

<< Granted it is not possible the way I drive to do a real scientific 
long term
test, so I'm not drawing any conclusions based on my own experience. >>

Which of course folks,  IS why the word "estimated" is on the
cute stickers on the window of all new cars in ref to 'mileage', 
methinks -:) !

Ed

From d_kroninger at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  9 06:27:44 2010
From: d_kroninger at hotmail.com (Dan Kroninger)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 07:27:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <4C0EE3AC.8040803@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>,
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>,
	<037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>,
	<4C0EE3AC.8040803@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <SNT104-W54CF01DBEC29716158989E9BD70@phx.gbl>

Thanks to eveyone who responded to this question.  I think I have a better
understanding of what is going on with these turbos.  It sounds like it will
be cheaper to buy the more expensive gas than rebuild the engine.  I agree, if
I am going to buy the fast car with all the bells and whistles, I might as
well pay to play with them.  I am still not set on the car, but it will help
in my decision making.



As far as putting higher octane in cars that do not require it, I have read
that putting higher octane in will do nothing for the car at all.  If the car
is designed to run on low octane, "treating" the car to higher is just a waste
of money.  That is what I read anyway.



Thanks again everyone!



Dan



> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:43:24 -0500
> From: pat at hornesystemstx.com
> To: tr3driver at ca.rr.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
>
> Someone a month or so ago was talking about getting higher mileage oh
> higher test fuel than their car required. I tried that on my 2008 CRV
> and go exactly the same mileage for several tanks before I went back to
> the recommended fuel. I guess it all depends on how the computers are
> set up and some physical factors with the engine.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Thusly spake Randall, On 6/8/2010 6:25 PM:
> >> But the cost difference between $2.69 a gallon, and $3.00 a gallon
> >> (current gas prices by me,) if you drive 16k miles in a year
> >> and you get
> >> 25 MPG, then it will only cost you $198.4 dollars A YEAR more for the
> >> premium.
> >>
> >
> > Unless of course, using premium means you actually use less fuel for the
> > same distance. Pretty much all modern cars use a knock sensor to measure
> > fuel octane, and advance the spark accordingly. More octane means more
> > advance which usually means better fuel mileage.
> >
> > Even my 1970 Audi got better fuel mileage on premium, though I never
could
> > explain why.
> >
> > Randall
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
> (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/d_kroninger at hotmail.com
>

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From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Jun  9 07:07:56 2010
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:07:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
Message-ID: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah I know its summer but for me its time to start thinking about
how to heat the new shop.

Background info: 40' x 50' with 12' metal side walls and metal roof,
R4 insulation, clear span and an 18' peak inside with concrete floor.
Also there are 3 turbine vents on the roof for ventilation that could
be closed off during the winter if need be.

There are no walls or barriers inside, its totally open. As far as use
goes the shop is sort of divided in half length wise with one side
being mostly storage and a place to work on large vehicles like a
Motorhome.  Most of the time I will not be working on the storage
side.  The other half will have a mill located towards one end and a
4-post car lift located at the other end.  Typically in the middle of
this area will be a long term project that I will be working on.  The
4-post lift will be used as needed although I will probably not be
using it except when needed.  Occupancy will just be a few hours per
evening during the week and various hours on weekends.

The choices that I'm aware of are gas or electric furnace, overhead
gas or electric infrared heaters, portable or free standing gas or
electric infrared heaters and the old standby bullet or torpedo
propane heaters.

I have no desire to use a torpedo style heater so thats out.  Even
though they are cheaper to operate my preference is to NOT use
anything that uses natural gas (not available anyway) or propane.  So
Ive narrowed it to  some sort of electric heat.

I had been debating on immediately going with a permanent installation
with some kind of overhead infrared heaters but someone I work with
suggested that I buy one or two free standing pole type units
(typically about 15000 btu or 4500 watts) and give them a try before
making a decision of a more permanent nature.  After thinking about it
Im inclined to agree that I should try portable units first and if I
like them either stick with them or upgrade to a more permanent
solution at a later date.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks!

Brad

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jun  9 07:15:31 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 06:15:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <SNT104-W54CF01DBEC29716158989E9BD70@phx.gbl>
References: <4C0EE3AC.8040803@hornesystemstx.com>
	<SNT104-W54CF01DBEC29716158989E9BD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100609131531.GC15146@slack>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 07:27:44AM -0500, Dan Kroninger wrote:
> Thanks to eveyone who responded to this question.  I think I have a better
> understanding of what is going on with these turbos.  It sounds like it will
> be cheaper to buy the more expensive gas than rebuild the engine.  I agree, if
> I am going to buy the fast car with all the bells and whistles, I might as
> well pay to play with them.  I am still not set on the car, but it will help
> in my decision making.
> 

That is correct.  In fact higher octane pump gas often has slightly less
energy per gallon than regular.  High octane only means that it is less
willing to detonate.


The adjustment that the ECU makes when switching to lower or higher octane
fuel is also not immediate.  Depending on the car it may take a while
to fully settle in to its new parameters.


Eric

From gwishon at nd.edu  Wed Jun  9 07:19:00 2010
From: gwishon at nd.edu (Gordon Wishon)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:19:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <4C0F026A.3070903@justbrits.com>
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>
	<037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall> <4C0EEF13.7070006@tx.rr.com>
	<4C0F026A.3070903@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56317E72C074@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>

What has been said here about turbo'd engines running at higher effective
compression ratios (when on-boost) being at risk of detonation is correct.  I
have owned turbo'd cars for a number of years now (currently a '98 TT Supra),
and every manufacturer warns against running lower octane fuels.  Each will
list a recommended minimum.

Most (all?) turbo cars will have a boost limiter that will pull timing or dump
boost beyond a certain factory pre-set limit.  Modifications (electronic
and/or mechanical) can be made to increase the limit at which the boost/timing
is pulled.  Increasing the limit further increases the risk of detonation and
above a certain level, engine builders/mod'ers will add an electronic fuel
management system to gain more precise control over fuel delivery.

Some manufacturers of newer turbo cars have added octane sensors (in addition
to traditional boost sensors).  I can't speak to how accurate these are but
they are intended to work in concert with the boost sensors to limit risk of
engine damage from detonation.

I *never* run with fuel with less than the prescribed octane rating.  In fact,
I've found a convenient source of racing fuel nearby (I occasionally run at
significantly higher than factory boost levels).

Gordon

P.S.  Another common failing of turbocharged cars turbo failure from  'coking'
of the turbocharger's bearings.  This occurs from shutting the engine off
immediately after running for any length of time at high boost levels.
Shutting the car off causes engine oil to stop circulating through the
turbocharger's bearings and become subject to the intense heat of the
turbocharger, the result of spinning well in excess of 100,000 rpms.  The oil
will literally turn to coke, with bearing failure occurring soon after.

To combat this, another commonly added aftermarket 'safety' feature is a turbo
timer.  The timer will keep the engine running (and circulating oil through
the turbo's bearings) for up to several minutes after the key is turned to the
'off' position.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jun  9 08:01:22 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:01:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.c om>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>

At 09:07 AM 6/9/2010, Brad Kahler wrote:

 >Yeah I know its summer but for me its time to start thinking about
 >how to heat the new shop.....

 >Occupancy will just be a few hours per evening during the week and various
 >hours on weekends.

Brad,

For starters you don't mention where you're located, or how cold it gets where
you live in the winter.  Heating when outside temps are in the 40s is 
a lot different than if it's -5 deg F.

 >The choices that I'm aware of are gas or electric furnace, overhead gas or
 >electric infrared heaters, portable or free standing gas or 
electric infrared
 >heaters and the old standby bullet or torpedo propane heaters.


 >I have no desire to use a torpedo style heater so thats out.  Even 
though they
 >are cheaper to operate my preference is to NOT use anything that 
uses natural
 >gas (not available anyway) or propane.  So Ive narrowed it to  some sort of
 >electric heat.

I don't know what your aversion is to Propane or NG.  Is it the open flame?


Yes, electric heat is "renewable" or "green" but at what price?  Typically
electricity is the most expensive way to heat an area, unless you're using
something like a heat pump.  But they don't work well below 40 deg.  You
shop is bigger than my house (about 1600sqft) and my electric bill averages
to $207 / mo (all electric - water heater, clothes dryer, and heat pump).

What about a wood burning stove?

 >I had been debating on immediately going with a permanent installation with
 >some kind of overhead infrared heaters but someone I work with suggested
 >that I buy one or two free standing pole type units (typically 
about 15000 btu or
 >4500 watts) and give them a try before making a decision of a more permanent
 >nature.  After thinking about it Im inclined to agree that I 
should try portable
 >units first and if I like them either stick with them or upgrade to a more
 >permanent solution at a later date.

That sounds like a smart idea, especially if the temp. units are cheaper than
an installed unit.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 08:02:32 2010
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:02:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimjiYPl1QpLTQaQEYeWa2n6Rvni_-0eq-7_Z-Ht@mail.gmail.com>

Brad,

First I want to say I'm VERY envious! I plan to do something similar
in the next year to 18 months, but I really wish I had it NOW!

Where are you located and what temps do you expect to see? You didn't
say anything about doors and windows and they probably wouldn't be a
huge factor anyway. You do mention R4 insulation, which isn't much.
Generally I've heard that every dollar spent controlling heat or cold
infiltration equals $6 spent heating or cooling, so I'd consider
more/better insulation first. We're in the middle of building about 60
miles NE of Austin and we're having the house foam insulated.
Basically we'll have the world's largest styrofoam cooler. I'll
probably do the same with the shop. In your case, I'd say additional
insulation would be the first step.

Also I'd take a serious look at propane, especially if you see really
cold temps for prolonged periods. Electric heaters aren't cheap to buy
and operate, and unless you already have a very healthy electrical
service installed you might have to get it upgraded to handle the
additional load. Regardless of which way you go with the heaters, I'd
consider leaving the heat on, maybe using a programmable thermostat to
keep the temps in the shop reasonable 24/7, then warming things up an
hour or so before you start working. Yeas, that's going to cost you,
but If you don't do something like that and it's really cold outside
(and in the shop) most of the time, it won't get warm quickly enough
in the evenings to do much good anyway.

FWIW,
Ron

From richard at kleihorst.com  Wed Jun  9 08:42:02 2010
From: richard at kleihorst.com (Richard Kleihorst)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 07:42:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
Message-ID: <637835.96317.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi,
 
electric heathers are the easiest to use and install,  they will keep moisture
out compared to the gas and oil types with open flames. Electricity is
expensive to use, but very easy to
control, cheap to buy, quick if you have enough capacity, clean, safe etc.
 
I have a 30' x 50' space with floorheating and external heater. Is very slow
to operate, but keeps the temperature at 100 celcius during winter. And
because the heating is from below, it is  a pleasure working under and around
the project cars.

Richard

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Jun  9 08:52:39 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:52:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1006091044220.79251@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
> Yes, electric heat is "renewable" or "green" but at what price?

    This is a common misconception.  Somewhere around 70% of US 
electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels ( ~50% coal ).  Only 
about 10% is traditional 'green' ( hydro and solar ).

    Unless you are generating your own via solar, electricity is basically 
a fossil fuel.

--
  David Hillman

From d_kroninger at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  9 08:54:11 2010
From: d_kroninger at hotmail.com (Dan Kroninger)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:54:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56317E72C074@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>,
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>,
	<037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
	<4C0EEF13.7070006@tx.rr.com>, <4C0F026A.3070903@justbrits.com>,
	<9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56317E72C074@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
Message-ID: <SNT104-W5AEB18B47E266F79010B49BD70@phx.gbl>

The "P.S." part is interesting.  Prolonged boost would only occur from
aggressive highway driving or street racing, correct.  Normal usuage around
town or highway cruising would not cause the the turbo to be running high
boost levels.  Am I correct in this thinking?  I don't want to have to sit in
a parking lot with the engine running for a few minutes everytime I drive the
car.  As I understood, the boost only kicks in as needed (aggressive
accelleration).



Dan

> From: gwishon at nd.edu
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:19:00 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
>
> What has been said here about turbo'd engines running at higher effective
> compression ratios (when on-boost) being at risk of detonation is correct.
I
> have owned turbo'd cars for a number of years now (currently a '98 TT
Supra),
> and every manufacturer warns against running lower octane fuels. Each will
> list a recommended minimum.
>
> Most (all?) turbo cars will have a boost limiter that will pull timing or
dump
> boost beyond a certain factory pre-set limit. Modifications (electronic
> and/or mechanical) can be made to increase the limit at which the
boost/timing
> is pulled. Increasing the limit further increases the risk of detonation
and
> above a certain level, engine builders/mod'ers will add an electronic fuel
> management system to gain more precise control over fuel delivery.
>
> Some manufacturers of newer turbo cars have added octane sensors (in
addition
> to traditional boost sensors). I can't speak to how accurate these are but
> they are intended to work in concert with the boost sensors to limit risk
of
> engine damage from detonation.
>
> I *never* run with fuel with less than the prescribed octane rating. In
fact,
> I've found a convenient source of racing fuel nearby (I occasionally run at
> significantly higher than factory boost levels).
>
> Gordon
>
> P.S. Another common failing of turbocharged cars turbo failure from
'coking'
> of the turbocharger's bearings. This occurs from shutting the engine off
> immediately after running for any length of time at high boost levels.
> Shutting the car off causes engine oil to stop circulating through the
> turbocharger's bearings and become subject to the intense heat of the
> turbocharger, the result of spinning well in excess of 100,000 rpms. The
oil
> will literally turn to coke, with bearing failure occurring soon after.
>
> To combat this, another commonly added aftermarket 'safety' feature is a
turbo
> timer. The timer will keep the engine running (and circulating oil through
> the turbo's bearings) for up to several minutes after the key is turned to
the
> 'off' position.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/d_kroninger at hotmail.com
>

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From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Jun  9 08:58:04 2010
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:58:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimjiYPl1QpLTQaQEYeWa2n6Rvni_-0eq-7_Z-Ht@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimjiYPl1QpLTQaQEYeWa2n6Rvni_-0eq-7_Z-Ht@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikgMXoVCeFTc2F5FY3sJ08rj51hNxANyeAuRlJF@mail.gmail.com>

Ron, when you do decide to build let me know and I'll send you the
info on the company that built mine.  I'm extremely happy with the
overall package (other than insulation that is).

Ron, John, Wayne and Tim,

Thanks for replying.

There are two garage doors located on the gable ends.  One is 10' x
11' and the other a 9' x 7' door.  There is an entry door next to each
of the overhead doors.  No windows in the building although sometime
down the road I may add some windows on the east and west walls (long
walls) to provide light.

As everyone stated I should have posted where I live and temps.  We
live in Richmond Kentucky which is about 90 miles due south of
Cincinnati.  This past winter was our second winter here (first with
the shop).  For temperatures this past winter we had several weeks
straight in single digits and then a month or more where temps were in
the teens and twenties.  The rest of the time temps were probably in
mid 30s to mid 40s.  Temperatures (air temps) in the shop were
typically low to mid 30s during most of the winter with the floor temp
getting no colder than about 30 to 31 degrees even during the coldest
periods (verified with a laser temp gauge).

Using a small 1500 watt portable heater I was able to work in specific
spots without to much discomfort.

As mentioned any sort of gas is not an option so its electricity or
nothing.  At this point in time I don't really want to add more
insulation either.  Down the road if no suitable heating option works
out then adding insulation may happen but certainly not for the next
few years or more.

One reason I'm interested in the Infrared variety of heater is because
its my understanding you don't necessarily have to leave the heat on
24/7 (even at reduced setting).  I will likely turn the heat on prior
to actually starting any kind of work but leaving it on 24/7 probably
won't happen either.

My main goal is to knock the chill out of the air prior to and during
work periods.  If on the coldest days it's still too cold then I'll
find something else to do in the house :)

Brad


On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> Brad,
>
> First I want to say I'm VERY envious! I plan to do something similar
> in the next year to 18 months, but I really wish I had it NOW!
>
> Where are you located and what temps do you expect to see? You didn't
> say anything about doors and windows and they probably wouldn't be a
> huge factor anyway. You do mention R4 insulation, which isn't much.
> Generally I've heard that every dollar spent controlling heat or cold
> infiltration equals $6 spent heating or cooling, so I'd consider
> more/better insulation first. We're in the middle of building about 60
> miles NE of Austin and we're having the house foam insulated.
> Basically we'll have the world's largest styrofoam cooler. I'll
> probably do the same with the shop. In your case, I'd say additional
> insulation would be the first step.
>
> Also I'd take a serious look at propane, especially if you see really
> cold temps for prolonged periods. Electric heaters aren't cheap to buy
> and operate, and unless you already have a very healthy electrical
> service installed you might have to get it upgraded to handle the
> additional load. Regardless of which way you go with the heaters, I'd
> consider leaving the heat on, maybe using a programmable thermostat to
> keep the temps in the shop reasonable 24/7, then warming things up an
> hour or so before you start working. Yeas, that's going to cost you,
> but If you don't do something like that and it's really cold outside
> (and in the shop) most of the time, it won't get warm quickly enough
> in the evenings to do much good anyway.
>
> FWIW,
> Ron

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Wed Jun  9 09:07:41 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:07:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>

Have you considered waste oil heaters?  My father uses them in his garage.  He
has a full service garage so there is no shortage of used oil to feed the
things.


>  >Yeah I know its summer but for me its time to start thinking about
>  >how to heat the new shop.....

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 09:11:36 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:11:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikh_Q8PabL_UDo_1HHxiJ1M5CLwtC59eArHA6JV@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:
> Yeah I know its summer but for me it s time to start thinking about
> how to heat the new shop.
>
> Background info: 40' x 50' with 12' metal side walls and metal roof,
> R4 insulation, clear span and an 18' peak inside with concrete floor.
> Also there are 3 turbine vents on the roof for ventilation that could
> be closed off during the winter if need be.

First step in any heating system design is to figure out what the heat loss is.
without that, you're going to buy too much or too little heat.  Either
is expensive.
A big part of that is climate, which you haven't told us.  Another is
what temperature you're going to keep it at.  (45 or 50 isn't awful to
work in, will keep things from freezing, and when you're going to be
out there for a while, you can turn the heat up.)  That's because heat
loss goes up as the difference between inside and outside temperatures
go up.

There's software that does this; any competent HVAC system contractor
will have something.  (it's 2010; not having the software means he's
stuck in 1970, and probably hasn't changed what he does since.  Sadly,
there are many HVAC contractors who are total morons about how to size
a system.)   It also makes it easy to see what changing the building
does to the calculations (adding insulation, improving windows and
doors, etc).  R4 is about an inch of fiberglass; you may not be able
to improve the walls, but I bet you can the roof.

Once you know how many BTUs you need, you can think about the ways to
get them.
It's worth paying someone to do the numbers.  (At a rough guess, a
building like that, aorund here (N. Indiana), would require something
in the range of 30 btu/square foot.
You're at 2000 sq ft, so something on the order of 60K btu.  You many
need more or less, depending on a lot of things. 60K BTU/hr is about
18 kW, that'll require 100 amp service, just for the heat. )   Buying
too much heat is expensive upfront, and it'll cost more to run, and
not last as long.  Buying too little means you get cold.

(As an aside, I used to work in a shop with overhead radiant heat.  It
would have been hard to have designed a worse heating system for the
shop.  it was bigger than yours, and had a much higher ceiling, but
all clear span.  It was kept about 60 or so.  You'd open an over head
door, and all the heated air would be lost.  Then you'd drive a cold
(and probably snow covered.) car into the bay, and put it on the
hoist.  The heat would come on and heat things up.  Except it was
aimed at the car, and not the person working on it.  So you'd be under
the car, which sucked all the heat out of the place, and about the
time it got not awful, you'd fixed it, and it was time for the next
one.  Maybe not a problem in a home shop, but something to think about
with radiant heat.)

>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 09:32:27 2010
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:32:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <637835.96317.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <637835.96317.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikyWxlELDe5rc-VbHhVoygnjuztBfkUXl-oXdML@mail.gmail.com>

> electric heathers are the easiest to use and install, B they will keep
moisture
> out compared to the gas and oil types with open flames. Electricity is
> expensive to use, but very easy to
> control, cheap to buy, quick if you have enough capacity, clean, safe etc.
>
> I have a 30' x 50' space with floor-heating and external heater. Is very
slow
> to operate, but keeps the temperature at 100 celsius during winter. And
> because the heating is from below, it is B a pleasure working under and
around
> the project cars.

Richard,

It sounds like you have some flavor of radiant heating in you concrete
slab which is great but obviously difficult to do after the fact. I
failed to mention it, but it takes a long time to warm up a big slab
once it gets really cold and lying on a cold surface can be VERY
uncomfortable even if the air temp is more reasonable. Fortunately
where we're located (Central Texas) the winters are very mild and
ground temps rarely get down to freezing, even at the surface.

A short story - We were living in Hawaii in the early '70s and bought
a water bed. We decided we didn't need a heater because of where we
were. We filled the bed from the water hydrant just outside or bedroom
window, and spent one of the most miserably cold nights of our lives.
We laugh about it now, but it wasn't so funny at the time. Needless to
say we bought a heater the next day! Point being it take a while to
change the temperature of large dense masses.

From richard at kleihorst.com  Wed Jun  9 10:05:28 2010
From: richard at kleihorst.com (Richard Kleihorst)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:05:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikyWxlELDe5rc-VbHhVoygnjuztBfkUXl-oXdML@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <658162.45676.qm@web112418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

 
I wrote 10 degrees celcius, but the somehow the small 0 got translated to a
big 0.
I am located in Belgium.
 
10 degrees is 10 degrees above freezing, a low temperature and relatively
cheap and easy to maintain. I imagine it would take days before the floor
heats up, but is well insulated. (And very comfortable to work on cars). The
floor heating is only intended to keep the barn
on a steady temperature to avoid condensation and freezing. For added heat,
I would take a wood or oil stove or a radiator near the working place. 

Never afraid that a water bed freezes during winter, might make a hard
jump....
 
Richard

--- On Wed, 6/9/10, Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Ronnie Day <ronnie.day at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
To: richard at kleihorst.com
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 5:32 PM


> electric heathers are the easiest to use and install,  they will keep
moisture
> out compared to the gas and oil types with open flames. Electricity is
> expensive to use, but very easy to
> control, cheap to buy, quick if you have enough capacity, clean, safe etc.
>
> I have a 30' x 50' space with floor-heating and external heater. Is very
slow
> to operate, but keeps the temperature at 100 celsius during winter. And
> because the heating is from below, it is  a pleasure working under and
around
> the project cars.

Richard,

It sounds like you have some flavor of radiant heating in you concrete
slab which is great but obviously difficult to do after the fact. I
failed to mention it, but it takes a long time to warm up a big slab
once it gets really cold and lying on a cold surface can be VERY
uncomfortable even if the air temp is more reasonable. Fortunately
where we're located (Central Texas) the winters are very mild and
ground temps rarely get down to freezing, even at the surface.

A short story - We were living in Hawaii in the early '70s and bought
a water bed. We decided we didn't need a heater because of where we
were. We filled the bed from the water hydrant just outside or bedroom
window, and spent one of the most miserably cold nights of our lives.
We laugh about it now, but it wasn't so funny at the time. Needless to
say we bought a heater the next day! Point being it take a while to
change the temperature of large dense masses.

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Jun  9 10:07:43 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 12:07:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.c om>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0L3R00DHI8SNSO80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have two Empire direct vent propane heaters.  I only use them when 
I am actually in the garage, and they are able to heat up fast.  This 
is also a plus if you have to open the door to move a car in or 
out.  Intake air and exhaust both go through the wall behind the 
unit.  The flame is in a closed combustion chamber isolated from the 
room air.  There isn't really an open flame in the garage.  Propane 
is expensive in my area, especially for low usage customers.  The 
propane companies are pretty sleazy and pricing can be 
volatile.  Other than that, I have been very happy with these units.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net
Putnam Valley, NY

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jun  9 10:36:50 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 12:36:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <637835.96317.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <637835.96317.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609123528.04517848@cox.net>

At 10:42 AM 6/9/2010, Richard Kleihorst wrote:

 >I have a 30' x 50' space with floorheating and external heater. Is very slow
 >to operate, but keeps the temperature at 100 celcius during winter.....

Richard,

Boy how do you work in that temp.  I can't do much at 100 Deg F, but 212 F
that's tough.  Not to mention how do you hold on to tools, and forget a cool
drink.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jun  9 10:38:11 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 12:38:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1006091044220.79251@itonami.pair.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1006091044220.79251@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609123721.04517ad8@cox.net>

At 10:52 AM 6/9/2010, David Hillman wrote:

 >>On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
 >>Yes, electric heat is "renewable" or "green" but at what price?

 >This is a common misconception.  Somewhere around 70% of US electricity is
 >generated by burning fossil fuels ( ~50% coal ).  Only about 10% is 
traditional
 >'green' ( hydro and solar ).

David,

Thanks, that was the point I was going to make but for got. :)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jun  9 11:15:59 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:15:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <SNT104-W5AEB18B47E266F79010B49BD70@phx.gbl>
References: <037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
	<9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56317E72C074@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
	<SNT104-W5AEB18B47E266F79010B49BD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100609171559.GB31732@slack>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dan Kroninger wrote:
> The "P.S." part is interesting.  Prolonged boost would only occur from
> aggressive highway driving or street racing, correct.  Normal usuage around
> town or highway cruising would not cause the the turbo to be running high
> boost levels.  Am I correct in this thinking? 

Yes.

> I don't want to have to sit in
> a parking lot with the engine running for a few minutes everytime I drive the
> car.  As I understood, the boost only kicks in as needed (aggressive
> accelleration).

Newer turbo cars have water cooled turbo housings which don't get as hot
and will circulate water after the engine is stopped to continue cooling
the hot parts.  So they are less likely to cook the oil in the turbo.

If you cruise the last mile or so to where you're stopping then
there's no need to idle the car.  I have a steep hill to my house
so I let the car idle 30 seconds or a minute.  Usually I am unpacking
my bike from the car, then I go back for my other stuff and turn the car
off.

The timer is kind of a show off thing for modern cars... you don't
really need it, just a bit of awareness.

Eric

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 11:41:01 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 17:41:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <0L3R00DHI8SNSO80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <1532243920.2014131276105261531.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> I have two Empire direct vent propane heaters.  I only use them when 
> I am actually in the garage, and they are able to heat up fast.  This
> 
> is also a plus if you have to open the door to move a car in or 
> out.  Intake air and exhaust both go through the wall behind the 
> unit.  The flame is in a closed combustion chamber isolated from the 
> room air.  There isn't really an open flame in the garage.  Propane 
> is expensive in my area, especially for low usage customers.  The 
> propane companies are pretty sleazy and pricing can be 
> volatile.  Other than that, I have been very happy with these units.
> 
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net
> Putnam Valley, NY

I have one of these Empire units.  Love it.  My property has piped-in naturaal gas, which is a lot cheaper than propane and in this market, also much cheaper than electricity.

My 20x30 shop is well-insulated, so I leave the thermostat at 50 all winter.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack"
1979 Caterham Super Seven
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
http://www.mnautox.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Wed Jun  9 12:25:08 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 11:25:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <20100609171559.GB31732@slack>
References: <037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
	<9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56317E72C074@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
	<SNT104-W5AEB18B47E266F79010B49BD70@phx.gbl>
	<20100609171559.GB31732@slack>
Message-ID: <4C0FDC84.2090808@milleredp.com>

> Newer turbo cars have water cooled turbo housings which don't get as hot
> and will circulate water after the engine is stopped to continue cooling
> the hot parts.  So they are less likely to cook the oil in the turbo.

What you don't want to do with a turbo is to wing the gas before you 
shut down the engine.  Just let it idle for a few seconds before you 
shut down.  When you shut off the engine you are killing the oil feed to 
the turbo, and you want to make sure the turbo spool is spinning as 
slowly as possible at that point.

A much bigger factor in turbo life these days seems to be pre-cats 
needed to meet the US cold-start smog standards, Scoobies that have a 
cat between the engine and the turbo (!) and some Audis and maybe others 
that wedge the cats right up against the turbo housings, the heat from 
the cats (and sometimes bits of disintegrating cat in the case of the 
Scoobies) will eventually take out the turbo.

IMO turbo-timers are bling.  If you wanted to do something useful you'd 
plumb in a pump or pressurized accumulator that'd feed oil to the turbo 
for 30sec after engine shutdown.

John.

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 13:09:53 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:09:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
References: <4C0EA547.5000202@milleredp.com>,
	<OF9483C1AA.39A16211-ON8525773C.007314A1-8525773C.0073AB5E@mail.megageek.com>,
	<037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>	<4C0EEF13.7070006@tx.rr.com>, 
	<4C0F026A.3070903@justbrits.com>,
	<9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56317E72C074@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
	<SNT104-W5AEB18B47E266F79010B49BD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5F2A1CF58CC446A69E503C74C945E0F9@mde.state.md.us>

Depends on the car and the turbo.

First, many turbos are water cooled.  They don't have any cool down 
problems.  Just shut the car down like a normal car.

Oil cooled turbo units, those can require a bit of a cool down, as well run 
synthetic oil, it doesn't coke up the way regular dino oil does.

As for heat up and spool up, it takes place in just a few seconds.  The 
turbo kicks in with boost just pulling away from a stop sign.  The harder 
you romp it, the higher the boost and the higher the heat.

Generally speaking, sane driving for a minute or two before shutting down 
will suffice with an oil cooled turbo.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Kroninger" <d_kroninger at hotmail.com>
To: <gwishon at nd.edu>; "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos


> The "P.S." part is interesting.  Prolonged boost would only occur from
> aggressive highway driving or street racing, correct.  Normal usuage 
> around
> town or highway cruising would not cause the the turbo to be running high
> boost levels.  Am I correct in this thinking?  I don't want to have to sit 
> in
> a parking lot with the engine running for a few minutes everytime I drive 
> the
> car.  As I understood, the boost only kicks in as needed (aggressive
> accelleration).

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 13:21:07 2010
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:21:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Premium for Turbos
In-Reply-To: <4C0FDC84.2090808@milleredp.com>
References: <037301cb0761$e6264140$0301a8c0@randall>
	<9E08B9238407BE4BB3758776E3C48F56317E72C074@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
	<SNT104-W5AEB18B47E266F79010B49BD70@phx.gbl>
	<20100609171559.GB31732@slack> <4C0FDC84.2090808@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <001501cb0808$ea5f5d30$bf1e1790$@com>

I disagree.  I've never had a turbo-timer (My only turbo-charged cars have
been my daily-drivers), but if I had a turbo'd car that I gave regular abuse
I think that a turbo-timer would be a nice accessory.  The engine already
has a pump that feeds oil to the turbo, so a timer that keeps the car
running does exactly what you're suggesting and does it for a heck of a lot
less money (and weight) than a dedicated system.

-Paul P

John Wrote:

IMO turbo-timers are bling.  If you wanted to do something useful you'd 
plumb in a pump or pressurized accumulator that'd feed oil to the turbo 
for 30sec after engine shutdown.

John.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  9 13:58:37 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:58:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609123528.04517848@cox.net>
References: <637835.96317.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100609123528.04517848@cox.net>
Message-ID: <04ec01cb080e$26a73dd0$0301a8c0@randall>

> Richard,
> 
> Boy how do you work in that temp.  

I'm reasonably certain that the second '0' was intended to be a "degree"
mark , but the list server converted it to '0'.

10C = 50F, which is warm enough (barely).

Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 20:02:00 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:02:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikgMXoVCeFTc2F5FY3sJ08rj51hNxANyeAuRlJF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimjiYPl1QpLTQaQEYeWa2n6Rvni_-0eq-7_Z-Ht@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgMXoVCeFTc2F5FY3sJ08rj51hNxANyeAuRlJF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C104798.4010700@verizon.net>

Brad Kahler wrote:
> My main goal is to knock the chill out of the air prior to and during
> work periods.  If on the coldest days it's still too cold then I'll
> find something else to do in the house

Then you don't want any kind of radiant heater.  They don't heat the air 
at all.  They heat what ever surface they are aimed at (you, the floor, 
your work bench, etc) and warm that surface/thing via radiation.  The 
warmed object then (eventually) heats the surrounding area via 
conduction and convection.  It will eventually warm everything up, but 
it's a slow process and the air is the last to get warm.

I have a 24 x 48 foot pole barn with one roll up door, a couple of man 
doors and a couple of windows.  Open trusses.  It has about R4 or 6 roof 
insulation, and varying to no insulation (depending on what I bought and 
how I did it) in the walls and gables.  I use a forced air propane 
heater when I am working in the shop, and two paddle fans to get the 
warm air out of the ceiling space and down to the working space.  I only 
run it when I am actually working in the shop.  I live in the Puget 
Sound area, and I don't have any trouble keeping the shop around 55* or 
so when I am working out there, but sometimes when we have a cold winter 
the concrete floor gets pretty cold.  Once the heater gets the shop up 
to the setpoint it only cycles occasionally.

I don't know what your objections are to propane, but I think, given the 
information  you've given us, electric IR would be a pretty poor choice 
for heating the entire shop.  For portable spot heating, maybe.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 21:49:36 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 22:49:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <4C104798.4010700@verizon.net>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimjiYPl1QpLTQaQEYeWa2n6Rvni_-0eq-7_Z-Ht@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgMXoVCeFTc2F5FY3sJ08rj51hNxANyeAuRlJF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C104798.4010700@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinA4Mr7qNa1MYCn2g8Zuk5FmzmnKgNU3hPvWNc_@mail.gmail.com>

*I mused of a solar system to help heat my 30 x 60 metal building shop . .
The shop had basic R-4 glass insulation and a buddy was all into solar
applications.  **I had access to newish 55 gallon drums because we used a
lot of methanol at my "real job" and we worked up a plan using a  8' x 60',
panel of corrugated roofing tin on the west side of my shop, with water
trickling down each corrugation into a collector and pumped into a series of
40 R30 insulated drums.  The thermostatic sensor would start the pump when
the collectors reached 75 degrees and kick off when th temp dropped below.
When I wanted heat, I would switch on another pump which would circulate the
heated water through a truck radiator with a 1 HP blower for a quick warm
up.*
**
*Reality set in:  Instead, I determined I would only be at the shop about 40
hours a month so I installed a 130,000 btu gas heater which will warm the
whole shop from 32 to 60 degrees in about 20 minutes and in North Texas, I
only need THAT about 20 times a year.*
**
*The solar system might work for Brad and Suzy though since they don't have
cheap gas!*
**
*Tony   *
*  *

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Wed Jun  9 22:22:50 2010
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 21:22:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Valve Stems
Message-ID: <57F5ED4F2CA64A6BA7F952DC23A9C7C9@DesktopPC>

If my memory is correct, years ago the V8 midget 
engine valves would sometimes be brazed than ground 
for clearance.  The question really becomes, isn't it possible 
to add length to a valve stem by brazing?  I need to add 
about .250 to .275" to some OLD valves stems.  Does 
this sound within reason?
Super thanks for your feedback.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 23:03:57 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:03:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Valve Stems
In-Reply-To: <57F5ED4F2CA64A6BA7F952DC23A9C7C9@DesktopPC>
References: <57F5ED4F2CA64A6BA7F952DC23A9C7C9@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimiWtSH_D7XErEv5Rs85Un2ftQ7-f6dfKVfRoIX@mail.gmail.com>

*That's a 1/4" and I don't think anyone wants to braze THAT much on a valve
stem unless it's a slow moving farm engine. .  Surely you can get in the
NAPA catalog and find some the right length.  What IS the engine?*

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA <
gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:

> If my memory is correct, years ago the V8 midget engine valves would
> sometimes be brazed than ground for clearance.  The question really becomes,
> isn't it possible to add length to a valve stem by brazing?  I need to add
> about .250 to .275" to some OLD valves stems.  Does this sound within
> reason?
> Super thanks for your feedback.
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _______________________________________________

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Jun 10 07:52:35 2010
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:52:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikh_Q8PabL_UDo_1HHxiJ1M5CLwtC59eArHA6JV@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikh_Q8PabL_UDo_1HHxiJ1M5CLwtC59eArHA6JV@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinKmDyKwB1M8bjOFoF0cvGRlMdQ844pfmgqs-UU@mail.gmail.com>

David,

I'm comfortable in working temps around the upper 40s to upper 50s so
anywhere in that range would be workable.  I'm not trying to totally
heat the building.  I just want something to make it comfortable and
take the chill off while I'm working on something.

Using a few portable heaters this coming winter will give me an idea
as to how warm I really would like it and whether spot type heating is
sufficient.  If not then I'm going to have to come up with a better
solution.

The roof is actually better than the walls.  It has the R4 insulation
that laid over the rafters then on top of that there are 2x4s placed
90 degrees to the rafters and on top of that is the  roof decking and
shingles.  So there is an air gap between the roof decking and the
insulation.  It seems to block the effects of the summer sunshine
pretty well.

Brad


On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:11 AM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:
>> Yeah I know its summer but for me it s time to start thinking about
>> how to heat the new shop.
>>
>> Background info: 40' x 50' with 12' metal side walls and metal roof,
>> R4 insulation, clear span and an 18' peak inside with concrete floor.
>> Also there are 3 turbine vents on the roof for ventilation that could
>> be closed off during the winter if need be.
>
> First step in any heating system design is to figure out what the heat loss
is.
> without that, you're going to buy too much or too little heat.  Either
> is expensive.
> A big part of that is climate, which you haven't told us.  Another is
> what temperature you're going to keep it at.  (45 or 50 isn't awful to
> work in, will keep things from freezing, and when you're going to be
> out there for a while, you can turn the heat up.)  That's because heat
> loss goes up as the difference between inside and outside temperatures
> go up.
>
> There's software that does this; any competent HVAC system contractor
> will have something.  (it's 2010; not having the software means he's
> stuck in 1970, and probably hasn't changed what he does since.  Sadly,
> there are many HVAC contractors who are total morons about how to size
> a system.)   It also makes it easy to see what changing the building
> does to the calculations (adding insulation, improving windows and
> doors, etc).  R4 is about an inch of fiberglass; you may not be able
> to improve the walls, but I bet you can the roof.
>
> Once you know how many BTUs you need, you can think about the ways to
> get them.
> It's worth paying someone to do the numbers.  (At a rough guess, a
> building like that, aorund here (N. Indiana), would require something
> in the range of 30 btu/square foot.
> You're at 2000 sq ft, so something on the order of 60K btu.  You many
> need more or less, depending on a lot of things. 60K BTU/hr is about
> 18 kW, that'll require 100 amp service, just for the heat. )   Buying
> too much heat is expensive upfront, and it'll cost more to run, and
> not last as long.  Buying too little means you get cold.
>
> (As an aside, I used to work in a shop with overhead radiant heat.  It
> would have been hard to have designed a worse heating system for the
> shop.  it was bigger than yours, and had a much higher ceiling, but
> all clear span.  It was kept about 60 or so.  You'd open an over head
> door, and all the heated air would be lost.  Then you'd drive a cold
> (and probably snow covered.) car into the bay, and put it on the
> hoist.  The heat would come on and heat things up.  Except it was
> aimed at the car, and not the person working on it.  So you'd be under
> the car, which sucked all the heat out of the place, and about the
> time it got not awful, you'd fixed it, and it was time for the next
> one.  Maybe not a problem in a home shop, but something to think about
> with radiant heat.)
>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Jun 10 07:54:04 2010
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:54:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7Q-gEDgzDexaVlSFj9ZIyClibqlxUdvl1dwuh@mail.gmail.com>

Thought about it but rejected it due too always having to try and
source waste oil.  More and more people are going that route which
means the sources are drying up.  At least thats my perception :)


On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:07 AM,  <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:
> Have you considered waste oil heaters?  My father uses them in his garage.
 He
> has a full service garage so there is no shortage of used oil to feed the
> things.
>
>
>>  >Yeah I know its summer but for me it s time to start thinking about
>>  >how to heat the new shop.....
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/brad.kahler at 141.com

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Jun 10 07:56:07 2010
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:56:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <0L3R00DHI8SNSO80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<0L3R00DHI8SNSO80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinrHQqMe6vp8mmpFdO2L7SwcDPCwufSzG255H9U@mail.gmail.com>

My first inclination was to go with propane but its not all that cheap
in this area of Kentucky (electricity isn't either for that matter)
but for various reasons we've opted to go electric if we can.

I could probably get coal a lot cheaper than anything else since
Kentucky is a coal producing state!  But I really don't want to mess
with it.


On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>
wrote:
> I have two Empire direct vent propane heaters.  I only use them when I am
> actually in the garage, and they are able to heat up fast.  This is also a
> plus if you have to open the door to move a car in or out.  Intake air and
> exhaust both go through the wall behind the unit.  The flame is in a closed
> combustion chamber isolated from the room air.  There isn't really an open
> flame in the garage.  Propane is expensive in my area, especially for low
> usage customers.  The propane companies are pretty sleazy and pricing can
be
> volatile.  Other than that, I have been very happy with these units.
>
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net
> Putnam Valley, NY

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Jun 10 07:57:26 2010
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:57:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <1532243920.2014131276105261531.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <0L3R00DHI8SNSO80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<1532243920.2014131276105261531.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim8Ra_6eZyY0XHjiyhVtsv74eiMbc5hlknK6JII@mail.gmail.com>

I will do some research on the Empire units.  Who knows, I might be
swayed....:)


On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:41 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I have two Empire direct vent propane heaters.  I only use them when
>> I am actually in the garage, and they are able to heat up fast.  This
>>
>> is also a plus if you have to open the door to move a car in or
>> out.  Intake air and exhaust both go through the wall behind the
>> unit.  The flame is in a closed combustion chamber isolated from the
>> room air.  There isn't really an open flame in the garage.  Propane
>> is expensive in my area, especially for low usage customers.  The
>> propane companies are pretty sleazy and pricing can be
>> volatile.  Other than that, I have been very happy with these units.
>>
>> -Steve Trovato
>> strovato at optonline.net
>> Putnam Valley, NY
>
> I have one of these Empire units.  Love it.  My property has piped-in
naturaal gas, which is a lot cheaper than propane and in this market, also
much cheaper than electricity.
>
> My 20x30 shop is well-insulated, so I leave the thermostat at 50 all
winter.
>
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack"
> 1979 Caterham Super Seven
> 2004 Suburban 8.1
> 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
> pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
> http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
> http://www.mnautox.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/brad.kahler at 141.com

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Jun 10 08:00:01 2010
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:00:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinA4Mr7qNa1MYCn2g8Zuk5FmzmnKgNU3hPvWNc_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimjiYPl1QpLTQaQEYeWa2n6Rvni_-0eq-7_Z-Ht@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgMXoVCeFTc2F5FY3sJ08rj51hNxANyeAuRlJF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C104798.4010700@verizon.net>
	<AANLkTinA4Mr7qNa1MYCn2g8Zuk5FmzmnKgNU3hPvWNc_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinS_dShtC7Pvvb0nzyYAijXJmYjdPo9jyMiHR7w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tony,

Solar would be nice but would definitely be more work than most other
choices!

Our shop has about 200 square foot more than yours and the winter
temps are definitely colder here than in North Texas where you're
located.

I'll talk to Susan about your arrangement since she has been in your
shop and can relate to it in size and comfort level.

Thanks!

Brad


On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:49 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark
<eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I mused of a solar system to help heat my 30 x 60 metal building shop . .
> The shop had basic R-4 glass insulation and a buddy was all into solar
> applications.  I had access to newish 55 gallon drums because we used a lot
> of methanol at my "real job" and we worked up a plan using a  8' x 60',
> panel of corrugated roofing tin on the west side of my shop, with water
> trickling down each corrugation into a collector and pumped into a series
of
> 40 R30 insulated drums.  The thermostatic sensor would start the pump when
> the collectors reached 75 degrees and kick off when th temp dropped below.
> When I wanted heat, I would switch on another pump which would circulate
the
> heated water through a truck radiator with a 1 HP blower for a quick warm
> up.
>
> Reality set in:  Instead, I determined I would only be at the shop about 40
> hours a month so I installed a 130,000 btu gas heater which will warm the
> whole shop from 32 to 60 degrees in about 20 minutes and in North Texas, I
> only need THAT about 20 times a year.
>
> The solar system might work for Brad and Suzy though since they don't have
> cheap gas!
>
> Tony

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jun 10 10:13:34 2010
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:13:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Valve Stems
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimiWtSH_D7XErEv5Rs85Un2ftQ7-f6dfKVfRoIX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57F5ED4F2CA64A6BA7F952DC23A9C7C9@DesktopPC>
	<AANLkTimiWtSH_D7XErEv5Rs85Un2ftQ7-f6dfKVfRoIX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB3024F72F534CB6889ACC56C0190488@DesktopPC>

Thanks to Tony and others for comments.
This is a slow ( <2000 rpm) antique car engine.
The change comes about due to a switch from a
radius cam follower to a mushroom flat tappet
cam follower and the resulting adjustments required.
We may be able to do some "interesting" functions with
the valve spring compressor to fit a longer adjustment
screw or I'll be looking at new valves with longer valve
stem.  The basic reason for the change is that we can
now fit seals on the tappets to stop oil leakage.  The
square radius tappets, once the broached square hole
wore, were quite the oil pumpers!
Thanks for the suggestions.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Valve Stems


> *That's a 1/4" and I don't think anyone wants to braze THAT much on 
> a valve
> stem unless it's a slow moving farm engine. .  Surely you can get in 
> the
> NAPA catalog and find some the right length.  What IS the engine?*
>
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA <
> gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:
>
>> If my memory is correct, years ago the V8 midget engine valves 
>> would
>> sometimes be brazed than ground for clearance.  The question really 
>> becomes,
>> isn't it possible to add length to a valve stem by brazing?  I need 
>> to add
>> about .250 to .275" to some OLD valves stems.  Does this sound 
>> within
>> reason?
>> Super thanks for your feedback.
>>
>> Steve Hammatt
>> Mount Vernon WA USA
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gsteve at hammatt.com

From lee at automate-it.com  Thu Jun 10 11:03:00 2010
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:03:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] yet another Conversion calculator
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinA4Mr7qNa1MYCn2g8Zuk5FmzmnKgNU3hPvWNc_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTindWqzY-SYGwsADIJ4MCHdYnf6l382JV6kKfdgN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimjiYPl1QpLTQaQEYeWa2n6Rvni_-0eq-7_Z-Ht@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgMXoVCeFTc2F5FY3sJ08rj51hNxANyeAuRlJF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C104798.4010700@verizon.net>
	<AANLkTinA4Mr7qNa1MYCn2g8Zuk5FmzmnKgNU3hPvWNc_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <596900f5ae5f706a6b8d7078487b9a90.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

Sure, I can remember a lot of conversions; I do mm to inches all the time, and
deg C to deg F. But I needed mP (mega Pascals) to psi - not one that keep in
my head, and came across this nice site from Chapel Steel:

  http://www.chapelsteel.com/conversions.html

Added to my bookmarks - nice to have handy on occasion!

 - Lee

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Jun 10 11:39:20 2010
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:39:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] technical auto information that's not in the computer
Message-ID: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>

now a days... if you need information on a part..specific sizes/dimensions,
etc ... it's hard to find... you go to the parts store or online catalog and
all they have is by model application only... or you hear "wuts it for ???"

building a street rod/truck there is such a list of stuff that doesn't fit in
the 'wuts it for' catagory... if you tell them a '53 Ford f-100 with a 460...
and a Mustang II crossmember ...you get a blank stare... or "a wut ?"

I'm trying to find some front suspension bushings for aftermarket control arms
for a aftermarket front cross member that has been added to the truck...  I
know what I want but need to order it by size..i.e.  o.d. of bushing sleeve,
i.d. of cross shaft, length of bushing...etc...

is there anywhere you can find dimensional information like this...  the guy
who supplied the control arms sells bushings that he says "hell, I just press
them in"   the bushings he sells are .050 too large for the bore...that don't
press in... I've about burnt bridges with this guy and am on my own to find
something that will work.   I can show the guy at NAPA the part I'm needing
and give him dimensions but his computer don't compute it that way

any suggestions ?????>

thanks
John



It is not only what we do,
 but also what we do not do,
for which we are accountable.
   Jean Baptiste Moliere

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Thu Jun 10 12:33:50 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:33:50 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] yet another Conversion calculator
In-Reply-To: <596900f5ae5f706a6b8d7078487b9a90.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <20100610183350.03GKJ.212674.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>

I found a little program called "convert".  It seems to convert almost any category of units.
http://joshmadison.com/software/convert-for-windows/


---- Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com> wrote: 
> Sure, I can remember a lot of conversions; I do mm to inches all the time, and
> deg C to deg F. But I needed mP (mega Pascals) to psi - not one that keep in
> my head, and came across this nice site from Chapel Steel:
> 
>   http://www.chapelsteel.com/conversions.html
> 
> Added to my bookmarks - nice to have handy on occasion!
> 
>  - Lee
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Jun 10 13:04:55 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:04:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] yet another Conversion calculator
In-Reply-To: <20100610183350.03GKJ.212674.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
Message-ID: <20100610150455.GB51W.936394.root@mp14>

I love this guys quote on his photo page: "wasting time online since 1993".

I wonder if he has a conversion table that will convert beers consumed into trips to the head? (can you tell it is going to be my Friday as soon as I tell my supervisor I am taking a vacation day tomorrow?!?!?!?!)


Tim
Dairyland Datsuns

---- bjshov8 at tx.rr.com wrote: 

=============
I found a little program called "convert".  It seems to convert almost any category of units.
http://joshmadison.com/software/convert-for-windows/


---- Lee Daniels <lee at automate-it.com> wrote: 
> Sure, I can remember a lot of conversions; I do mm to inches all the time, and
> deg C to deg F. But I needed mP (mega Pascals) to psi - not one that keep in
> my head, and came across this nice site from Chapel Steel:
> 
>   http://www.chapelsteel.com/conversions.html
> 
> Added to my bookmarks - nice to have handy on occasion!
> 
>  - Lee
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jun 10 13:02:14 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:02:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] technical auto information that's not in the
 computer
In-Reply-To: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
References: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100610145938.044fdca0@cox.net>

At 01:39 PM 6/10/2010, john niolon wrote:

 >now a days... if you need information on a part..specific sizes/dimensions,
 >etc ... it's hard to find... you go to the parts store or online catalog and
 >all they have is by model application only... or you hear "wuts it for ???"

John,

Many you can say that again!!!

 >is there anywhere you can find dimensional information like this...

Don't know of any on-line, but do you have a bearing shop in your town?

I know for bearings and seals, and I'm guessing (haven't tried it) I 
go to a local
bearing shop.  They mic the part, then crossreference it from either their
computer or by looking it up in paper catalogues.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jun 10 13:11:03 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:11:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] technical auto information that's not in the
 computer
In-Reply-To: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
References: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4C1138C7.7070405@hornesystemstx.com>

What size bushings are you looking for? I can check with some of our 
local Mom and Pops that still have books.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake john niolon, On 6/10/2010 12:39 PM:
> now a days... if you need information on a part..specific sizes/dimensions,
> etc ... it's hard to find... you go to the parts store or online catalog and
> all they have is by model application only... or you hear "wuts it for ???"
>
> building a street rod/truck there is such a list of stuff that doesn't fit in
> the 'wuts it for' catagory... if you tell them a '53 Ford f-100 with a 460...
> and a Mustang II crossmember ...you get a blank stare... or "a wut ?"
>
> I'm trying to find some front suspension bushings for aftermarket control arms
> for a aftermarket front cross member that has been added to the truck...  I
> know what I want but need to order it by size..i.e.  o.d. of bushing sleeve,
> i.d. of cross shaft, length of bushing...etc...
>
> is there anywhere you can find dimensional information like this...  the guy
> who supplied the control arms sells bushings that he says "hell, I just press
> them in"   the bushings he sells are .050 too large for the bore...that don't
> press in... I've about burnt bridges with this guy and am on my own to find
> something that will work.   I can show the guy at NAPA the part I'm needing
> and give him dimensions but his computer don't compute it that way
>
> any suggestions ?????>
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
> It is not only what we do,
>  but also what we do not do,
> for which we are accountable.
>    Jean Baptiste Moliere
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Jun 10 14:16:27 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:16:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] technical auto information that's not in the
 computer
In-Reply-To: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
References: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4C11481B.7060102@xxiii.com>

On 6/10/2010 1:39 PM, john niolon wrote:
> I'm trying to find some front suspension bushings for aftermarket control arms
> for a aftermarket front cross member that has been added to the truck...  I
> know what I want but need to order it by size..i.e.  o.d. of bushing sleeve,

Don't understand why anyone is into old cars.  Err, well, my sentimental 
Nissan is 20 years old now.  Oh, crap;  I'm gonna be 44 in a couple 
months.  Oops, back on topic...

Have ya' checked Energy Suspension?  They have a catalog of "universal 
fit" bushings by size:
http://www.energysuspension.com/universal-products/link-flange-type-bushings-universal-mounts-isolators.html

-Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 15:31:57 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 17:31:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] technical auto information that's not in the
 computer
In-Reply-To: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
References: <42782AB98C2F49D7A1A5513C8FB394D7@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilht-bck3XA_MB0WKWN8BheRhc2EFEE6Az_3hil@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 1:39 PM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
> now a days... if you need information on a part..specific sizes/dimensions,
> etc ... it's hard to find... you go to the parts store or online catalog
and
> all they have is by model application only... or you hear "wuts it for ???"
>
> building a street rod/truck there is such a list of stuff that doesn't fit
in
> the 'wuts it for' catagory... if you tell them a '53 Ford f-100 with a
460...
> and a Mustang II crossmember ...you get a blank stare... or "a wut ?"
>
> I'm trying to find some front suspension bushings for aftermarket control
arms
> for a aftermarket front cross member that has been added to the truck...
B I
> know what I want but need to order it by size..i.e. B o.d. of bushing
sleeve,
> i.d. of cross shaft, length of bushing...etc...
>
> is there anywhere you can find dimensional information like this... B the
guy
> who supplied the control arms sells bushings that he says "hell, I just
press
> them in" B  the bushings he sells are .050 too large for the bore...that
don't
> press in... I've about burnt bridges with this guy and am on my own to find
> something that will work. B  I can show the guy at NAPA the part I'm
needing
> and give him dimensions but his computer don't compute it that way
>
> any suggestions ?????>
>

Many parts makers publish pdf catalogs, which have the dimensional
data.  Once you've got a part number, you can usually find what it
fits, and then get it that way.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 22:14:44 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 04:14:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <04ec01cb080e$26a73dd0$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <1105812418.2707451276229684576.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I always type out the word "degree" on internet mailing lists.  Symbols don't always make the trip.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack"
1979 Caterham Super Seven
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
http://www.mnautox.com

----- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2010 2:58:37 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] shop heating options
>
> > Richard,
> > 
> > Boy how do you work in that temp.  
> 
> I'm reasonably certain that the second '0' was intended to be a
> "degree"
> mark , but the list server converted it to '0'.
> 
> 10C = 50F, which is warm enough (barely).
> 
> Randall

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 11 11:11:50 2010
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dex-Cool
Message-ID: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi guys,

I just replaced the cam belt and water pump on my wife's 2000 Saturn LW2 (3.0L DOHC, 24 valve V6). It was time (100K miles and the tensioner pulley was getting noisy).


Anyway, I flushed and replaced the coolant with Dex-Cool and then Googled it and saw all the complaints about Dex-Cool, so I thought I would tap the collective wisdom of this esteemed group. 

If you were flushing a Dex-Cool equipped car, would you replace it with Dex-Cool or go with the "green stuff?"  (I searched the archives and could not find much there about it).

It is truly the work of the devil or are the problems caused by running low levels, air oxidizing, mixing with regular coolant, etc.?

thanks,

doug

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jun 11 11:43:55 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:43:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
Message-ID: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>

A few days ago I was cleaning out a fence line. The string trimmer was 
doing fine. Then it was as if someone just turned off the switch, it 
slowed from full speed to stop without any poor running or noise.

The fuel is fresh, with the correct mixture.

I gave it a shot of ether to see if it would start, it did not respond. 
To me, this rules out a fuel problem.

I replaced the plug, which looked good.

After a trip to the local lawn equipment shop I was told that 
compression was low, and that I should just buy a new trimmer. They also 
said that I had a 4 cylinder spark plug in it, and that they run hotter 
than the 2 cycle plug, possibly burning the piston.

I didn't think that the compression was any lower than it has been for 
years, so I brought it home and pulled the cylinder. The piston looks 
fine and the rings are not stuck. There is no scoring of the cylinder or 
piston.

I connected a neon electrical test light from the high tension lead to 
ground and got a spark. Connecting the light in series with the plug and 
lead did not produce any light. I figured that the coil went bad. I have 
a spare engine from a Mantis tiller that is made by the same company as 
the Echo, so I mounted up the coil from that engine but got the same 
results.

The shop said that in their 30 years of being in business they have 
never seen an ignition coil or flywheel on these engines go bad.

My money is on the ignition. Anyone else have any guesses?

Peace,
Pat

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 12:28:08 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:28:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dex-Cool
In-Reply-To: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiliAbcPS6OZyDRdozgah3G8d2TunVyK97TZAVmo@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:11 PM, old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> I just replaced the cam belt and water pump on my wife's 2000 Saturn LW2
(3.0L DOHC, 24 valve V6). It was time (100K miles and the tensioner pulley was
getting noisy).
>
>
> Anyway, I flushed and replaced the coolant with Dex-Cool and then Googled it
and saw all the complaints about Dex-Cool, so I thought I would tap the
collective wisdom of this esteemed group.
>
> If you were flushing a Dex-Cool equipped car, would you replace it with
Dex-Cool or go with the "green stuff?" B (I searched the archives and could
not find much there about it).
>
> It is truly the work of the devil or are the problems caused by running low
levels, air oxidizing, mixing with regular coolant, etc.?
>

Almost all the probelms with dex cool are really problems with low
levels, in many vehicles caused by a defective radiator cap.  replace
the cap, refill with a dex-cool clone, call it a day.  check the level
on a regular basis, and fix any leaks.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shop at justbrits.com  Fri Jun 11 12:39:59 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:39:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dex-Cool
In-Reply-To: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C1282FF.7060109@justbrits.com>

<< If you were flushing a Dex-Cool equipped car, would you replace it with
Dex-Cool or... >>

If it came originally with Dex-Cool Doug, dat's what I would
use.

Then again what I know about "new" things called 'cars'
wouldn't even fill a thimble !!  LOL

Ed

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jun 11 12:46:49 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:46:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dex-Cool
In-Reply-To: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0L3V00I0W5IBU650@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I was faced with the same thing.  I guess I've decided to stick with 
the Dex-Cool.  It is what the manufacturer specified and it has been 
working OK so far.  Keep in mind that there are three main kinds of antifreeze:

IAT:  Inorganic Additive Technology (this is the traditional green stuff)
OAT: Organic Additive Technoloogy
HOAT: Hybrid Organic Additive Technology

Note that the "A" in the above is sometimes for "Acid" which makes 
sense for some but not others.  Someone decided it can also be 
"Additive" so they can all end in nice "AT" initials.

Anyway, Dex-cool is an OAT product.  Prestone in the ubiquitous 
yellow containers used to be IAT, just like they all were for many 
decades.  Now Prestone says "All makes, all models" and is in fact an 
OAT antifreeze.  If you want to find that green, "what you always 
used to use" stuff, you have to look around.  Zerex still makes 
it.  This is becoming an issue in classic car circles, as some 
believe that the old AIT stuff is best for those applications.  Also, 
color is not a reliable indicator, as there are too many exceptions.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net


At 01:11 PM 6/11/2010, old dirtbeard wrote:


>If you were flushing a Dex-Cool equipped car, would you replace it 
>with Dex-Cool or go with the "green stuff?"  (I searched the 
>archives and could not find much there about it).

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 12:49:33 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:49:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
> A few days ago I was cleaning out a fence line. The string trimmer was doing
> fine. Then it was as if someone just turned off the switch, it slowed from
> full speed to stop without any poor running or noise.
>
> The fuel is fresh, with the correct mixture.
>
> I gave it a shot of ether to see if it would start, it did not respond. To
> me, this rules out a fuel problem.
>
> I replaced the plug, which looked good.
>
> After a trip to the local lawn equipment shop I was told that compression
> was low, and that I should just buy a new trimmer. They also said that I had
> a 4 cylinder spark plug in it, and that they run hotter than the 2 cycle
> plug, possibly burning the piston.
>
> I didn't think that the compression was any lower than it has been for
> years, so I brought it home and pulled the cylinder. The piston looks fine
> and the rings are not stuck. There is no scoring of the cylinder or piston.
>
> I connected a neon electrical test light from the high tension lead to
> ground and got a spark. Connecting the light in series with the plug and
> lead did not produce any light. I figured that the coil went bad. I have a
> spare engine from a Mantis tiller that is made by the same company as the
> Echo, so I mounted up the coil from that engine but got the same results.
>
> The shop said that in their 30 years of being in business they have never
> seen an ignition coil or flywheel on these engines go bad.
>
> My money is on the ignition. Anyone else have any guesses?

Do you have an inductive spark tester?  (A timing light will work, if
you hook it up to another 12v source) Is the HT lead part of the coil,
or a seperate part?  I'd bet on that.  But yeah, that smells like an
ignition failure.  I've seen the magnets break off the fly wheel.
There's also a capacitor in most magnetos.

I suspect the reason they've never seen one fail is because people say
"hum.  80 dollar tool.  100 dollar shop bill."

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:55:19 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:55:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd:  Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikonngJuxDJ2LPikoh-A-2ce5_3Vor4laZw_Vh0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
	<AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikonngJuxDJ2LPikoh-A-2ce5_3Vor4laZw_Vh0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXdtYSGmBK0uQZOzI_v_-B25AXTNOrvPv4J6dN@mail.gmail.com>

Tony sent this to me.  I expect it should go to the list, as well.
(since I"m not the one with a broken string trimmer. )

My problem with Tony's method is that it requires seven hands.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark <eltonclark at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
To: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>


Well, here'sB  "geezer" advise forB your troubleshooting:

Remove the spark plug and connect the plug wire to a new correct plug.
 Hold the body of the plug firmly against the cylinder head in order
to achieve a good ground path and, with the spark gap visible to you,
pull the starter rope vigorously and see if you have a good spark.B  If
no, start swapping ignition parts!B  If yes, clean the carburetor and
run tag wire thru EVERYB passage and blow compressed air thru every
DISASEMBLED part.B  This has workedB for me . . ummm 50 years!
Tony


On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:49 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
> > A few days ago I was cleaning out a fence line. The string trimmer was
doing
> > fine. Then it was as if someone just turned off the switch, it slowed
from
> > full speed to stop without any poor running or noise.
> >
> > The fuel is fresh, with the correct mixture.
> >
> > I gave it a shot of ether to see if it would start, it did not respond.
To
> > me, this rules out a fuel problem.
> >
> > I replaced the plug, which looked good.
> >
> > After a trip to the local lawn equipment shop I was told that compression
> > was low, and that I should just buy a new trimmer. They also said that I
had
> > a 4 cylinder spark plug in it, and that they run hotter than the 2 cycle
> > plug, possibly burning the piston.
> >
> > I didn't think that the compression was any lower than it has been for
> > years, so I brought it home and pulled the cylinder. The piston looks
fine
> > and the rings are not stuck. There is no scoring of the cylinder or
piston.
> >
> > I connected a neon electrical test light from the high tension lead to
> > ground and got a spark. Connecting the light in series with the plug and
> > lead did not produce any light. I figured that the coil went bad. I have
a
> > spare engine from a Mantis tiller that is made by the same company as the
> > Echo, so I mounted up the coil from that engine but got the same results.
> >
> > The shop said that in their 30 years of being in business they have never
> > seen an ignition coil or flywheel on these engines go bad.
> >
> > My money is on the ignition. Anyone else have any guesses?
>
> Do you have an inductive spark tester? B (A timing light will work, if
> you hook it up to another 12v source) Is the HT lead part of the coil,
> or a seperate part? B I'd bet on that. B But yeah, that smells like an
> ignition failure. B I've seen the magnets break off the fly wheel.
> There's also a capacitor in most magnetos.
>
> I suspect the reason they've never seen one fail is because people say
> "hum. B 80 dollar tool. B 100 dollar shop bill."
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation B $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums:
> http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com
>




--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Jun 11 16:18:58 2010
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 22:18:58 -0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater
Message-ID: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Hot water tanks are probably the most expensive appliance operating in your
home, and it's 95% a waste, why does anyone heat water over and over each and
everyday, heat it up when you need hot water

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jun 11 16:25:26 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:25:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
	<AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C12B7D6.7020906@hornesystemstx.com>

Thanks for all the replies. Most of them didn't go to the list though.

I've received replies ranging from "Yup, sounds like ignition" to 
"definitely Carb". The first thing I am going to check was simply "reed 
valve" I forgot all about the reed valve on 2 strike engines!

It will probably be Monday before I will be able to get to the engine 
again, a swarm of bees decided to set up house inside my shop this 
afternoon! Hopefully they are just the night, then then move out in the 
morning, but I somehow doubt it. There was a swarm in one of our Oak 
trees a couple days ago, so they are looking for a place to call home. 
It is pretty disconcerting to have several thousand bees flying around 
you when you are trying to work.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David Scheidt, On 6/11/2010 1:49 PM:
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
>   
>> A few days ago I was cleaning out a fence line. The string trimmer was doing
>> fine. Then it was as if someone just turned off the switch, it slowed from
>> full speed to stop without any poor running or noise.
>>
>> The fuel is fresh, with the correct mixture.
>>
>> I gave it a shot of ether to see if it would start, it did not respond. To
>> me, this rules out a fuel problem.
>>
>> I replaced the plug, which looked good.
>>
>> After a trip to the local lawn equipment shop I was told that compression
>> was low, and that I should just buy a new trimmer. They also said that I had
>> a 4 cylinder spark plug in it, and that they run hotter than the 2 cycle
>> plug, possibly burning the piston.
>>
>> I didn't think that the compression was any lower than it has been for
>> years, so I brought it home and pulled the cylinder. The piston looks fine
>> and the rings are not stuck. There is no scoring of the cylinder or piston.
>>
>> I connected a neon electrical test light from the high tension lead to
>> ground and got a spark. Connecting the light in series with the plug and
>> lead did not produce any light. I figured that the coil went bad. I have a
>> spare engine from a Mantis tiller that is made by the same company as the
>> Echo, so I mounted up the coil from that engine but got the same results.
>>
>> The shop said that in their 30 years of being in business they have never
>> seen an ignition coil or flywheel on these engines go bad.
>>
>> My money is on the ignition. Anyone else have any guesses?
>>     
>
> Do you have an inductive spark tester?  (A timing light will work, if
> you hook it up to another 12v source) Is the HT lead part of the coil,
> or a seperate part?  I'd bet on that.  But yeah, that smells like an
> ignition failure.  I've seen the magnets break off the fly wheel.
> There's also a capacitor in most magnetos.
>
> I suspect the reason they've never seen one fail is because people say
> "hum.  80 dollar tool.  100 dollar shop bill."
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 11 17:04:55 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:04:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4C12C117.6000308@earthlink.net>

Pat - I picked up a Ryobi brush cutter with sting trimmer heads (BC30 or 
BC26 in store or RY30971 online for $149) at my local Home Depot (San 
Pedro, CA) for $75.  They had them marked down for clearance.  Probably 
not Echo quality, but it works well and was just about the cost of 
repairs on my 11 year old trimmer.  

My old trimmer died suddenly as well and I tried a number of the things 
already suggested to get it running right.  It sounds like you have a 
good local place.  My local service center wouldn't touch my trimmer 
without a $50 bench fee.  Based on feedback from the list and what they 
said, the carb needed replacement.  The service center said it wasn't 
rebuildable because it was too old.

I normally run the Ryobi trimmer for a tank of gas, by which point I've 
had enough.  I recently ran it for 3 hours and 4 tanks of gas without 
problems.  Might be an easy option to consider.

Brian

Pat Horne wrote:
> A few days ago I was cleaning out a fence line. The string trimmer was 
> doing fine. Then it was as if someone just turned off the switch, it 
> slowed from full speed to stop without any poor running or noise.
>
> The fuel is fresh, with the correct mixture.
>
> I gave it a shot of ether to see if it would start, it did not 
> respond. To me, this rules out a fuel problem.
>
> I replaced the plug, which looked good.
>
> After a trip to the local lawn equipment shop I was told that 
> compression was low, and that I should just buy a new trimmer. They 
> also said that I had a 4 cylinder spark plug in it, and that they run 
> hotter than the 2 cycle plug, possibly burning the piston.
>
> I didn't think that the compression was any lower than it has been for 
> years, so I brought it home and pulled the cylinder. The piston looks 
> fine and the rings are not stuck. There is no scoring of the cylinder 
> or piston.
>
> I connected a neon electrical test light from the high tension lead to 
> ground and got a spark. Connecting the light in series with the plug 
> and lead did not produce any light. I figured that the coil went bad. 
> I have a spare engine from a Mantis tiller that is made by the same 
> company as the Echo, so I mounted up the coil from that engine but got 
> the same results.
>
> The shop said that in their 30 years of being in business they have 
> never seen an ignition coil or flywheel on these engines go bad.
>
> My money is on the ignition. Anyone else have any guesses?
>
> Peace,
> Pat

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jun 11 17:32:35 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:32:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater
In-Reply-To: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <0L3V003I7IRO74J0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Fred,

Consumer Reports doesn't agree with you.  There conclusions were:

-inconsistent water temperature was a common complaint
-units are expensive
-they require more service
-up to 22 years to break even

And that's not even considering that many people (including me) use 
electricity to make hot water.  Electric tankless hot water heaters 
are especially feeble.  I have a day/night electric meter.  I pay a 
much lower rate at night.  I have a timer on my water heater, and I 
only heat water at night.  This works fine most of the time.  If I 
have house guests or for some reason need a lot of hot water, I just 
flip the switch to override the timer.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 03:54 PM 1/26/2010, FRED E THOMAS wrote:
>Hot water tanks are probably the most expensive appliance operating in your
>home, and it's 95% a waste, why does anyone heat water over and over each and
>everyday, heat it up when you need hot water

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Jun 11 17:58:50 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:58:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dex-Cool
In-Reply-To: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <234649.73471.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8421EAABA9445F5B584CF4AE5F673C7@hpa1477c>

Use the Dex-Cool.  The problems occur when the level gets low and air gets
in the system.  I'll be changing a Chevy out soon too.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of old dirtbeard
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 10:12 AM
To: shop talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dex-Cool

Hi guys,

I just replaced the cam belt and water pump on my wife's 2000 Saturn LW2
(3.0L DOHC, 24 valve V6). It was time (100K miles and the tensioner pulley
was getting noisy).


Anyway, I flushed and replaced the coolant with Dex-Cool and then Googled it
and saw all the complaints about Dex-Cool, so I thought I would tap the
collective wisdom of this esteemed group. 

If you were flushing a Dex-Cool equipped car, would you replace it with
Dex-Cool or go with the "green stuff?"  (I searched the archives and could
not find much there about it).

It is truly the work of the devil or are the problems caused by running low
levels, air oxidizing, mixing with regular coolant, etc.?

thanks,

doug
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net

From shop at justbrits.com  Fri Jun 11 18:40:15 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:40:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <4C12B7D6.7020906@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
	<AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C12B7D6.7020906@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4C12D76F.40700@justbrits.com>

<< It is pretty disconcerting to have several thousand bees flying 
around you
when you are trying to work. >>

Can also be VERY detrimental to your HEALTH, Pat !!!!

Time for a "bomb" or 2 or 3 or 4 <G> !!!!

Ed

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 11 19:02:13 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:02:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd:  Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimXdtYSGmBK0uQZOzI_v_-B25AXTNOrvPv4J6dN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com><AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikonngJuxDJ2LPikoh-A-2ce5_3Vor4laZw_Vh0@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimXdtYSGmBK0uQZOzI_v_-B25AXTNOrvPv4J6dN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501cb09ca$e4f58310$0301a8c0@randall>

> My problem with Tony's method is that it requires seven hands.

Nah, just a reasonable dexterity.  That's pretty much the method I used last
time my string trimmer wouldn't start; except I used spray carb cleaner
instead of wires & compressed air.  Worked for me.

These days I just pay some Mexican to do it for me <G>

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 20:07:05 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 22:07:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <000501cb09ca$e4f58310$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
	<AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikonngJuxDJ2LPikoh-A-2ce5_3Vor4laZw_Vh0@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimXdtYSGmBK0uQZOzI_v_-B25AXTNOrvPv4J6dN@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501cb09ca$e4f58310$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilb-GErogxbXRZKKd-gmVmbcULrMfT69xXa-3Gm@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> My problem with Tony's method is that it requires seven hands.
>
> Nah, just a reasonable dexterity. B That's pretty much the method I used
last
> time my string trimmer wouldn't start; except I used spray carb cleaner
> instead of wires & compressed air. B Worked for me.

>
His spark testing method, not his carb cleaning methods.

  (my carb cleaning method certainly involves no wires or scratchy
things, though on a string trimmer, it'sn ot likely to matter.)

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 11 20:12:56 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:12:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater
In-Reply-To: <0L3V003I7IRO74J0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>,
	<0L3V003I7IRO74J0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W533CC695560AF15E5B6DB3E1DA0@phx.gbl>

I'm thinking Fred got hacked, or sent a reply to the wrong list.

It sounds like we started in the middle of a thread.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!




> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:32:35 -0400
> From: strovato at optonline.net
> To: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heater
>
> Fred,
>
> Consumer Reports doesn't agree with you. There conclusions were:
>
> -inconsistent water temperature was a common complaint
> -units are expensive
> -they require more service
> -up to 22 years to break even
>
> And that's not even considering that many people (including me) use
> electricity to make hot water. Electric tankless hot water heaters
> are especially feeble. I have a day/night electric meter. I pay a
> much lower rate at night. I have a timer on my water heater, and I
> only heat water at night. This works fine most of the time. If I
> have house guests or for some reason need a lot of hot water, I just
> flip the switch to override the timer.
>
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net
>
> At 03:54 PM 1/26/2010, FRED E THOMAS wrote:
> >Hot water tanks are probably the most expensive appliance operating in
your
> >home, and it's 95% a waste, why does anyone heat water over and over each
and
> >everyday, heat it up when you need hot water
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 11 21:38:53 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:38:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilb-GErogxbXRZKKd-gmVmbcULrMfT69xXa-3Gm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com><AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikonngJuxDJ2LPikoh-A-2ce5_3Vor4laZw_Vh0@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTimXdtYSGmBK0uQZOzI_v_-B25AXTNOrvPv4J6dN@mail.gmail.com><000501cb09ca$e4f58310$0301a8c0@randall>
	<AANLkTilb-GErogxbXRZKKd-gmVmbcULrMfT69xXa-3Gm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801cb09e0$c7c93e10$0301a8c0@randall>

> His spark testing method, not his carb cleaning methods.

Right.  Pretty standard way of testing the ignition on any spark motor.  If
you really can't manage to hold the plug against the head (or whatever)
while yanking on the cord with the other, then you can make a "test" plug by
soldering a big ground clip onto a flat.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jun 11 22:08:55 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 00:08:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W533CC695560AF15E5B6DB3E1DA0@phx.gbl>
References: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<0L3V003I7IRO74J0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<SNT123-W533CC695560AF15E5B6DB3E1DA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0L3V00JOMVJG6HG0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I thought maybe he just got a sudden urge to vent.

-Steve

At 10:12 PM 6/11/2010, Rich White wrote:
>I'm thinking Fred got hacked, or sent a reply to the wrong list.
>
>It sounds like we started in the middle of a thread.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 22:49:25 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 23:49:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilb-GErogxbXRZKKd-gmVmbcULrMfT69xXa-3Gm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
	<AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikonngJuxDJ2LPikoh-A-2ce5_3Vor4laZw_Vh0@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimXdtYSGmBK0uQZOzI_v_-B25AXTNOrvPv4J6dN@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501cb09ca$e4f58310$0301a8c0@randall>
	<AANLkTilb-GErogxbXRZKKd-gmVmbcULrMfT69xXa-3Gm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilgBPVtNIvUAgO6_EN55rFFgTfRixU4tm-n7gSN@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:07 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>my carb cleaning method certainly involves no wires or
> scratchy things.


*Well, you probably ought to try it!  The emulsion tubes (2) in each Weber
DCOE 40 carburetors (2) on my Lotus Elan S1 each had **about 15 tiny holes
that were prone to plug from some gasoline residue which just happened in a
car that sat idle for weeks at a time . . I'd lose one throat and one
cylinder in most cases . . the gunk would resist carb cleaner, air blasts
and even my ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, but I could pop them out and  give
them a poke with .013 tag wire in about 5 minutes .  Tag wire is a damn fine
carburetor tool used intelligently.      *

From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Jun 11 23:06:40 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 22:06:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater
In-Reply-To: <0L3V00JOMVJG6HG0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<0L3V003I7IRO74J0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<SNT123-W533CC695560AF15E5B6DB3E1DA0@phx.gbl>
	<0L3V00JOMVJG6HG0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4C1315E0.1080702@b2systems.com>

I got the same message dated 1/26/10 from Fred today, so it went to the 
list but with a very old date.

     mike

On 6/11/2010 9:08 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:
> I thought maybe he just got a sudden urge to vent.
>
> -Steve
>
> At 10:12 PM 6/11/2010, Rich White wrote:
>> I'm thinking Fred got hacked, or sent a reply to the wrong list.
>>
>> It sounds like we started in the middle of a thread.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mikey at b2systems.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 12 02:34:32 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 01:34:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilgBPVtNIvUAgO6_EN55rFFgTfRixU4tm-n7gSN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com><AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikonngJuxDJ2LPikoh-A-2ce5_3Vor4laZw_Vh0@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTimXdtYSGmBK0uQZOzI_v_-B25AXTNOrvPv4J6dN@mail.gmail.com><000501cb09ca$e4f58310$0301a8c0@randall><AANLkTilb-GErogxbXRZKKd-gmVmbcULrMfT69xXa-3Gm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilgBPVtNIvUAgO6_EN55rFFgTfRixU4tm-n7gSN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601cb0a0a$15745f90$0301a8c0@randall>

> the gunk would resist carb 
> cleaner, air blasts
> and even my ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, 

FWIW, I've had the same problem with the lawnmower carb.  "Gasohol"
apparently sets up like concrete instead of varnish.

Randall

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Jun 12 07:37:41 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:37:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W533CC695560AF15E5B6DB3E1DA0@phx.gbl>
References: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>,
	<0L3V003I7IRO74J0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<SNT123-W533CC695560AF15E5B6DB3E1DA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C138DA5.6070309@xxiii.com>

Yup.  Notice it's dated 1/26/10.  I looked back in my archives, and that 
thread was active last January.  Not sure what's up with Fred.  Maybe he 
composed but never sent it, and accidentally hit something in his email 
to release it 4 months late?
     -Wayne

On 6/11/2010 10:12 PM, Rich White wrote:
> I'm thinking Fred got hacked, or sent a reply to the wrong list.
> It sounds like we started in the middle of a thread.
>
>>
>> At 03:54 PM 1/26/2010, FRED E THOMAS wrote:
>>> Hot water tanks are probably the most expensive appliance operating in

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jun 13 19:04:52 2010
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:04:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor ?
Message-ID: <183454.97048.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just installed an Atlas Copco model KT75PV80 air compressor, 90 gallon, 7.5hp motor 25 acfm 175 psi.  If I run it down to 150psi and the compressor attempts to start up the magnetic relay trips on the compressor. If I let it deplete to 25 or 50 lbs it will start right up and cut off at 175psi.

It's on a 40 amp circuit and supplying 233 volts, the circuit breaker in the main panel does not trip just the relay on the compressor.

The compressor is always free wheeling, in other words there is never a load on the compressor when it starts up.

Frank V.  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 13 22:05:16 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:05:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressor ?
In-Reply-To: <183454.97048.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <183454.97048.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <035a01cb0b76$cc892ea0$0301a8c0@randall>

> If I run 
> it down to 150psi and the compressor attempts to start up the 
> magnetic relay trips on the compressor. If I let it deplete 
> to 25 or 50 lbs it will start right up and cut off at 175psi.
<snip>
> The compressor is always free wheeling, in other words there 
> is never a load on the compressor when it starts up.

If you are certain the unloader & check valve are working (meaning the tube
between the compressor and tank has zero pressure when the compressor
starts); then my first guess would be excessive resistance in the supply
line to the compressor.  The current draw while the motor is starting will
be considerably more than 40 amps, probably more like 70-80.  And if it
doesn't get enough current while starting, it won't be up to speed when the
load picks up.

Try hooking an AC voltmeter to the supply at the motor, and watch what
happens just before the relay trips out.  If it's sagging by more than 15
volts or so, I'd say you need to upgrade some wiring (or find the bad
connection).

Another possibility might be a starting capacitor that has lost part of its
capacitance, especially if the compressor was purchased used.

One workaround, if you can't find another solution, would be to add some
more tubing to the run from compressor to tank.  That wastes a bit more
energy every time the compressor stops, but gives it more of a chance to get
up to speed.

Randall

From ericm at lne.com  Mon Jun 14 10:48:16 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:48:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <4C12B7D6.7020906@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
	<AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C12B7D6.7020906@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <20100614164816.GA2206@slack>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 05:25:26PM -0500, Pat Horne wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies. Most of them didn't go to the list though.
>
> I've received replies ranging from "Yup, sounds like ignition" to  
> "definitely Carb". The first thing I am going to check was simply "reed  
> valve" I forgot all about the reed valve on 2 strike engines!

Most of the utility two-strokes I have taken apart have
been piston port.

I'd look at ignition.  It might not be the coil, it could
be the trigger.  Just check that the plug fires whe
you pull the cord.  The kill switch could have shorted out too.

Also check to see if it starts now.  If the fuel tank vent
becomes clogged the engine can stop just like its out of fuel.
But opening the gas cap will let more air into the tank
and it'll run fine again.... for a while.


Eric

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 14 11:05:01 2010
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:05:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater
In-Reply-To: <0L3V00JOMVJG6HG0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <66A4C88110A04CFFBD96FD342D6872CB@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<0L3V003I7IRO74J0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<SNT123-W533CC695560AF15E5B6DB3E1DA0@phx.gbl>
	<0L3V00JOMVJG6HG0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <00ea01cb0be3$bc5f3930$351dab90$@net>

I was thinking he had just seen the new Karate Kid movie 


Thanks

Ron Schmittou
Ron_S at agps.us

Anna Office (972) 369-8640 Ext 210                          
Auto Fwd (469) 844-5482
Cell (214) 862-1871
                           


-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Trovato
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 11:09 PM
To: shop-talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heater

I thought maybe he just got a sudden urge to vent.

-Steve

At 10:12 PM 6/11/2010, Rich White wrote:
>I'm thinking Fred got hacked, or sent a reply to the wrong list.
>
>It sounds like we started in the middle of a thread.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rs1121 at earthlink.net

From rkg at teleport.com  Mon Jun 14 13:25:31 2010
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:25:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Echo string trimmer
In-Reply-To: <20100614164816.GA2206@slack>
References: <4C1275DB.7080705@hornesystemstx.com>
	<AANLkTilrRZ2J9C9LB4I9cMF50c4-6l_7obcagChjPync@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C12B7D6.7020906@hornesystemstx.com> <20100614164816.GA2206@slack>
Message-ID: <4C16822B.2000600@teleport.com>

Hey guys,

There's this guy on youtube that takes breaks from doing stupid sh*t 
like putting airbags in dryers and jumping cars to occasionally make 
videos of him
fixing stuff - here's a couple on getting various types weedeaters going 
- here's a couple:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Davidsfarm#p/u/34/tu5AiFhZ5i0
http://www.youtube.com/user/Davidsfarm#p/u/33/0qlQItB1W6I

rkg
(Richard George)


> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 05:25:26PM -0500, Pat Horne wrote:
>    
>> Thanks for all the replies. Most of them didn't go to the list though.
>>
>> I've received replies ranging from "Yup, sounds like ignition" to
>> "definitely Carb". The first thing I am going to check was simply "reed
>> valve" I forgot all about the reed valve on 2 strike engines!
>>      
> Most of the utility two-strokes I have taken apart have
> been piston port.
>
> I'd look at ignition.  It might not be the coil, it could
> be the trigger.  Just check that the plug fires whe
> you pull the cord.  The kill switch could have shorted out too.
>
> Also check to see if it starts now.  If the fuel tank vent
> becomes clogged the engine can stop just like its out of fuel.
> But opening the gas cap will let more air into the tank
> and it'll run fine again.... for a while.
>
>
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rkg at teleport.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Jun 15 17:04:32 2010
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:04:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
Message-ID: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>

I walked up close to my 54" flat screen last night and could feel the heat
coming from the screen...  was suprised at how warm the screen was when I
touched it...  now that I realize what a little oven I've got there I'm
wondering if adding a couple of whisper quiet muffin fans to the lower vents
on the back might accomplish.. it would at least move a little air through the
case...

anyone with any knowledge on flat screen lcds care to venture an hypothesis

thanks
John






I've learned in life that my primary goal
 is to serve as a bad example

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 18:50:49 2010
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:50:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik9ebuKAFwYFQ-MNrJV9ZVqFAWILkLxiqLYZxrg@mail.gmail.com>

> John Niolon

> I walked up close to my 54" flat screen last night and could feel the heat
> coming from the screen... B was suprised at how warm the screen was when I
> touched it... B now that I realize what a little oven I've got there I'm
> wondering if adding a couple of whisper quiet muffin fans to the lower
vents
> on the back might accomplish.. it would at least move a little air through
the
> case...

John,

Yes, they can get toasty, but unless you have the TV mounted inside a
cabinet just barely big enough for it I wouldn't worry about it. If
it's out in the open , on a stand or hung on a wall I just wouldn't
bother. I've got a couple of Sharps that have been in use for roughly
three years without any issues.

In any case you'd want to pull the heat out of the top of a device or
area it's housed in. If you've got the TV in a cabinet you could mount
a fan in an upper corner of the section the TV is housed in and
exhaust the warm air out the back of the cabinet.

FWIW,
Ron

From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 19:37:09 2010
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:37:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>

I'll bet you're asking because you already decided to do this and you 
want some reinforcement ;)

Anyway, cooling electronics is always a good idea for their longevity.  
Whether it's worth the trouble or not is debatable; however, and there's 
always the chance you'll break something doing this (it'll almost 
certainly void whatever warranty you have left).    The fans will 
probably wear out and get noisy before the TV bites the dust.

bs


John Niolon wrote:
> I walked up close to my 54" flat screen last night and could feel the heat
> coming from the screen...  was suprised at how warm the screen was when I
> touched it...  now that I realize what a little oven I've got there I'm
> wondering if adding a couple of whisper quiet muffin fans to the lower vents
> on the back might accomplish.. it would at least move a little air through the
> case...
>
> anyone with any knowledge on flat screen lcds care to venture an hypothesis
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>  is to serve as a bad example
>
>
>
>   


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 15 20:52:02 2010
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:52:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W21BA984032DD4AA27BE8E89ADE0@phx.gbl>

It is pretty noticable, and it does seem to kick off some good heat.
When I switched to a 50" Energy Star rated plasma from a 10 yr. old 32" tube
tv, I swore there was a noticably lower utility bill, maybe $5?  So IMO all
that heat is costing you less?  I don't know.... I'm thinking with a tube tv
the heat is coming off the back, which for me was into a corner at almost
thigh level... for the flat screen it was falling off into the middle of the
room at shoulder level with more surface area - more noticable when you walked
by it...
I'm trying to remember if there was a small "computer" fan on the back of mine
when I hung it.  My TV has a speaker bar powered by the TV, does Ethernet, and
a host of other neat stuff, so I'm thinking it's been designed to generate and
deal with some heat.
PJ

> From: jniolon at bham.rr.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:04:32 -0500
> Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
>
> I walked up close to my 54" flat screen last night and could feel the heat
> coming from the screen...  was suprised at how warm the screen was when I
> touched it...  now that I realize what a little oven I've got there I'm
> wondering if adding a couple of whisper quiet muffin fans to the lower
vents
> on the back might accomplish.. it would at least move a little air through
the
> case...
>
> anyone with any knowledge on flat screen lcds care to venture an hypothesis
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>  is to serve as a bad example
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
>

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL
:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1

From bobkegel at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 21:47:09 2010
From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:47:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <SNT127-W21BA984032DD4AA27BE8E89ADE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1AE1A3B8E81D4783878D48DD0A98FBE0@robertve2wc7wm>

Interesting. My IR thermometer says the screen on the LCD monitor before me
is 82 - 86 deg F. Other, non-electric objects on my desk are 73 deg.

Bob K
Aberdeen, WA

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 09:08:10 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:08:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <4C1A3A5A.4050902@comcast.net>

On 6/15/2010 7:04 PM, John Niolon wrote:
> I walked up close to my 54" flat screen last night and could feel the heat
> coming from the screen...  was suprised at how warm the screen was when I
> touched it...  now that I realize what a little oven I've got there I'm
> wondering if adding a couple of whisper quiet muffin fans to the lower vents
> on the back might accomplish.. it would at least move a little air through the
> case...
>
> anyone with any knowledge on flat screen lcds care to venture an hypothesis
>
> thanks
> John
>    

Heat coming from the front of the TV is from the lamp.  Not the lamp 
running warm but the infrared component of the light.  Fans in the back 
won't help this.  I'd also assume the engineers put enough vents to 
allow convection to handle carrying away the heat inside the set.

As some have noted, this should not be a problem unless the TV is in a 
cabinet that restricts air flow.  It this is the case I'd add the fans 
to the cabinet instead of the TV.   Putting the fans on the TV would 
just recycle the heat in side the cabinet. Mount a fan to exhaust the 
heat near the top of the cabinet.

Best,

Peter T.
>
>
>
>
>
> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>   is to serve as a bad example
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Thu Jun 17 09:40:02 2010
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:40:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406> 
	<4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>

John-

Cooler is indeed better. Component MBTF drops remarkably fast as
average temperatures rise - a 10 degree C increase can reduce the
expected lifespan of electronics by well more than half. Temperature
consistency is also good (though for different reasons). You should be
able to provide some cooling without voiding any warranty, just
providing some added push to the existing convective currents the unit
already leverages. Power for a fan could be provided by USB outlets on
the TV, if you have any. I have done something similar to provide
in-cabinet ventilation for my PS3...

I was surprised to find that the 52" plasma a friend had just
purchased consumed over 600W. I haven't yet calculated how much my 46"
LCD panel consumes.

If you don't have a Kill-A-Watt in your toolbox, you might want to
invest in one (they're relatively inexpensive, under US$25). I am
installing a TED[*] at my house next weekend for similar reasons -
What they show you can be quite revealing!

[*] TED=The Energy Detective - http://www.theenergydetective.com

-Peter

--
Peter Murray (N3IXY)
Oak Hill, VA


On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 9:37 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
> I'll bet you're asking because you already decided to do this and you want
> some reinforcement ;)
>
> Anyway, cooling electronics is always a good idea for their longevity.
>  Whether it's worth the trouble or not is debatable; however, and there's
> always the chance you'll break something doing this (it'll almost certainly
> void whatever warranty you have left).    The fans will probably wear out
> and get noisy before the TV bites the dust.
>
> bs
>
>
> John Niolon wrote:
>>
>> I walked up close to my 54" flat screen last night and could feel the heat
>> coming from the screen...  was suprised at how warm the screen was when I
>> touched it...  now that I realize what a little oven I've got there I'm
>> wondering if adding a couple of whisper quiet muffin fans to the lower
>> vents
>> on the back might accomplish.. it would at least move a little air through
>> the
>> case...
>>
>> anyone with any knowledge on flat screen lcds care to venture an
>> hypothesis
>>
>> thanks
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>>  is to serve as a bad example
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *******************************************************************
> Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
>
> *******************************************************************
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun 17 11:15:22 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 10:15:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406> 
	<4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>

> [*] TED=The Energy Detective - http://www.theenergydetective.com

I dunno.  Do you really think it's wise to buy from a company that makes
statements like:
"3. No Batteries - Unlike other home electricity monitors, TED's optional
wireless display comes with a recharging stand."

What exactly are they recharging, if not batteries?  And how many other
claims are "marketing speak"?  (In the FAQ they admit there is a lithium
battery, but don't mention if it is replaceable or not.)

Why is it "sensitive" to 1 watt, not "accurate" to 1 watt?  I couldn't find
any mention of what it does about power factor, for example, nor any
accuracy specification.

I wonder too, how does it sort out energy usage by my washing machine for
example (which draws different levels of power from minute to minute over
the space of an hour or more, depending on what it is doing at the moment);
from the powered ventilators in the attic (which switch on and off
automatically).

-- Randall 

From mikey at b2systems.com  Thu Jun 17 12:16:19 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:16:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406> 
	<4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4C1A6673.10700@b2systems.com>

  I was not going to say anything but since someone else has, I will 
too.  I don't understand the need for this thing, it will NOT tell you 
what is wasting energy, only that energy is being used.  The Kill-A-Watt 
thing that you plug into individual plugs and can check actual appliance 
use seems much more useful that a TED.  Only cool part I see from TED is 
the ability to hook it up to the computer and get wowee cool graphics, 
but in reality all it does is give you the same information that the 
meter outside gives you.  When I get serious about my power usage I want 
to know which appliance is wasting it and how to use less, not what the 
entire usage is.  I have been known to go read my meter when running my 
big things in my garage like my powder coating oven but smaller items 
wont show up on the meter, you need individual plugs for that.

   But I do look forward to seeing some cool color charts :)

     mike

On 06/17/2010 10:15 AM, Randall wrote:
>> [*] TED=The Energy Detective - http://www.theenergydetective.com
>>      
> I dunno.  Do you really think it's wise to buy from a company that makes
> statements like:
> "3. No Batteries - Unlike other home electricity monitors, TED's optional
> wireless display comes with a recharging stand."
>
> What exactly are they recharging, if not batteries?  And how many other
> claims are "marketing speak"?  (In the FAQ they admit there is a lithium
> battery, but don't mention if it is replaceable or not.)
>
> Why is it "sensitive" to 1 watt, not "accurate" to 1 watt?  I couldn't find
> any mention of what it does about power factor, for example, nor any
> accuracy specification.
>
> I wonder too, how does it sort out energy usage by my washing machine for
> example (which draws different levels of power from minute to minute over
> the space of an hour or more, depending on what it is doing at the moment);
> from the powered ventilators in the attic (which switch on and off
> automatically).
>
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mikey at b2systems.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Jun 17 13:13:24 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:13:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] power meters, TED
In-Reply-To: <4C1A6673.10700@b2systems.com>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406> 
	<4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>
	<4C1A6673.10700@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <4C1A73D4.7040905@xxiii.com>

On 6/17/2010 2:16 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:
> I was not going to say anything but since someone else has, I will too.
>   I don't understand the need for this thing, it will NOT tell you what
> is wasting energy, only that energy is being used. The Kill-A-Watt thing
> that you plug into individual plugs and can check actual appliance use

I have a kill-a-watt and it's good for checking individual 120V items.  You do need to leave it plugged in for like a week to get a good average of usage.  ie:  your fridge cycling off & on in response to different weekday / weekend usage as well as its defrost cycle.  Same applies to your TV, etc.  I read some dipshit's review praising how he measured his TV for 5 minutes and thus "knew exactly how much it cost per month"

My computers cost ~$5/each/month if left on constantly.  I put them in stand by now.  The fridge runs about $3/month.  What I've figured out is it's really the big stuff (HVAC, water heater, well and septic pumps) that are using the most.  But they're hard wired 240V.  The TED has some inductive pickup, so I figure you can put it across the mains and measure the whole house;  or hook it to an individual circuit (like the water heater.)  And for that I'd like to have one.

-Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jun 17 13:40:36 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:40:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
	<4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikg7L0i1ZoywopoJiZDoA1aMUZaQk3jbrP2dPRv@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> [*] TED=The Energy Detective - http://www.theenergydetective.com
>
> I dunno. B Do you really think it's wise to buy from a company that makes
> statements like:
> "3. No Batteries - Unlike other home electricity monitors, TED's optional
> wireless display comes with a recharging stand."
>
> What exactly are they recharging, if not batteries? B And how many other
> claims are "marketing speak"? B (In the FAQ they admit there is a lithium
> battery, but don't mention if it is replaceable or not.)
>
> Why is it "sensitive" to 1 watt, not "accurate" to 1 watt? B I couldn't
find
> any mention of what it does about power factor, for example, nor any
> accuracy specification.
>

Power factor is easy to deal with for a system like this.

> I wonder too, how does it sort out energy usage by my washing machine for
> example (which draws different levels of power from minute to minute over
> the space of an hour or more, depending on what it is doing at the moment);
> from the powered ventilators in the attic (which switch on and off
> automatically).
>

It doesn't.  It's merely telling you how much power the panel it's
attached to is using. There are systems that put a clamp on every
circuit's feed, so you can see what any circuit is doing.
--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mikey at b2systems.com  Thu Jun 17 14:48:37 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:48:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] power meters, TED
In-Reply-To: <4C1A73D4.7040905@xxiii.com>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406> 
	<4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>
	<4C1A6673.10700@b2systems.com> <4C1A73D4.7040905@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4C1A8A25.700@b2systems.com>

  See, that is that why this list exists! I was thinking figuring out 
what the TV/Computer/Fridge/etc costs with the kill-a-watt but I was not 
thinking big like hardwired items, like the kitchen oven and other 240v 
items.  The TED would work for those and I did not think of them.

     mike

On 06/17/2010 12:13 PM, Wayne wrote:
> On 6/17/2010 2:16 PM, Mike Rambour wrote:
>> I was not going to say anything but since someone else has, I will too.
>>   I don't understand the need for this thing, it will NOT tell you what
>> is wasting energy, only that energy is being used. The Kill-A-Watt thing
>> that you plug into individual plugs and can check actual appliance use
>
> I have a kill-a-watt and it's good for checking individual 120V 
> items.  You do need to leave it plugged in for like a week to get a 
> good average of usage.  ie:  your fridge cycling off & on in response 
> to different weekday / weekend usage as well as its defrost cycle.  
> Same applies to your TV, etc.  I read some dipshit's review praising 
> how he measured his TV for 5 minutes and thus "knew exactly how much 
> it cost per month"
>
> My computers cost ~$5/each/month if left on constantly.  I put them in 
> stand by now.  The fridge runs about $3/month.  What I've figured out 
> is it's really the big stuff (HVAC, water heater, well and septic 
> pumps) that are using the most.  But they're hard wired 240V.  The TED 
> has some inductive pickup, so I figure you can put it across the mains 
> and measure the whole house;  or hook it to an individual circuit 
> (like the water heater.)  And for that I'd like to have one.
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mikey at b2systems.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun 17 15:15:26 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:15:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] flat screen heat
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikg7L0i1ZoywopoJiZDoA1aMUZaQk3jbrP2dPRv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B49BC6756D8F4DB5B660DCBC33E9E3C6@john5043a2d406>
	<4C182AC5.8020501@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTiky0Aq6ri5JUDDQNdk4aXk7r3_EIahK6DLZEOeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<028e01cb0e40$abf24bf0$03d6e3d0$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTikg7L0i1ZoywopoJiZDoA1aMUZaQk3jbrP2dPRv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02af01cb0e62$354cca80$9fe65f80$@rr.com>

> Power factor is easy to deal with for a system like this.

I agree.  But that makes it all the stranger that they don't mention it.  The
Kill-a-Watt device does.

> It doesn't.  It's merely telling you how much power the panel it's
> attached to is using.

So then the bit on the web site that says I can (one of the ten reasons for
buying their unit), is a lie.

The marketing hype just seems little deep, to me.  I kept expecting to find
"But wait, there's more!"

-- Randall

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jun 18 07:43:43 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:43:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
Message-ID: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>

I have a very large roll (about 3' tall, and about 3' round) of fiberglass 
batting (or matting.)  I'm not really sure what it's called.

If anyone here wants it, you can have it for free.  Either come pick it up 
or pay for shipping (I'm guessing it would be expensive to ship.)

Or, is there anyplace that can normally use this stuff?  I don't think I 
have any boat builders by me, so who else would want it?  Is the stuff 
worth anything?

Thanks.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Jun 18 08:45:00 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:45:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <750003431.5423471276872300852.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Where are you?

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack"
1979 Caterham Super Seven
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
http://www.mnautox.com

----- eric at megageek.com wrote:

> From: eric at megageek.com
> To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 8:43:43 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
>
> I have a very large roll (about 3' tall, and about 3' round) of
> fiberglass 
> batting (or matting.)  I'm not really sure what it's called.
> 
> If anyone here wants it, you can have it for free.  Either come pick
> it up 
> or pay for shipping (I'm guessing it would be expensive to ship.)
> 
> Or, is there anyplace that can normally use this stuff?  I don't think
> I 
> have any boat builders by me, so who else would want it?  Is the stuff
> 
> worth anything?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a
> rational 
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> 
> Waldo Emerson 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From shop at justbrits.com  Fri Jun 18 09:46:59 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:46:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4C1B94F3.8090903@justbrits.com>

NOT in the order sent<G> !!!

<< Is the stuff worth anything?>>

If it's what I think it is [send me a pic, pls] the answer Eric,
YEP - it's platinum plated <G> !!
 
<< Or, is there anyplace that can normally use this stuff?  >>

You 'could'.

<< I don't think I have any boat builders by me, so who else would want 
it? >>

It is FANTASTIC stuff for garage doors !!!  I have two [2]
standard  8 footers & they  ARE covered.  HUGE difference.
I have one [1] 28' door and I only had enough to do the top
[roughly half] portion  and it DOES  help for the waist-up
area<G>.  Feet freeze [or boil] but butt is warm [or cool]<G> !!

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com
[with LOTS of 1st time offers for Listers in the
For Sale areas which ARE soon to go to fleabay -:(.] 
<< Is the stuff worth anything?>>

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Jun 18 10:33:46 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:33:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <4C1B94F3.8090903@justbrits.com>
References: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
	<4C1B94F3.8090903@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <4C1B9FEA.9040705@xxiii.com>

On 6/18/2010 11:46 AM, Ed wrote:
> It is FANTASTIC stuff for garage doors !!! I have two [2]
> standard 8 footers & they ARE covered. HUGE difference.
> I have one [1] 28' door and I only had enough to do the top

I think he's talking about fiberglass roving, like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370292315871

rather than an insulating material.  Eric?

-Wayne

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Jun 18 10:41:13 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:41:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4C1BA1A9.6010507@verizon.net>

Do we have to come to Afghanistan to get it?

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> If anyone here wants it, you can have it for free.  Either come pick it up
> or pay for shipping (I'm guessing it would be expensive to ship.)

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Jun 18 11:28:33 2010
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:28:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
Message-ID: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>

any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...

mostly 18-22 wire  so run time wouldn't be too much problem.... how do they
hold up >>

thanks
John



It is not only what we do,
 but also what we do not do,
for which we are accountable.
   Jean Baptiste Moliere

From jmitch at snet.net  Fri Jun 18 12:27:39 2010
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:27:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4C1BBA9B.5070309@snet.net>

I have a butane operated soldering iron that I got from Sears.  Works 
quite well.  John Mitchell

john niolon wrote:
> any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
> out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
> better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...
>
> mostly 18-22 wire  so run time wouldn't be too much problem.... how do they
> hold up >>
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
> It is not only what we do,
>  but also what we do not do,
> for which we are accountable.
>    Jean Baptiste Moliere
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmitch at snet.net

From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Jun 18 12:28:26 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:28:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4C1BBACA.6010005@b2systems.com>

  I have a butane soldering iron, works GREAT.  I got it for when out on 
the water in my boat, also came with  a flat tip for cutting line (rope) 
and melting it at the same time so it does not unravel.

  I bought mine at West Marine, its called a hot knife but it really is 
a soldering iron first.  Quite a bit more expensive than a Butane 
Soldering Iron at Radio Shack, they have 2 of them, one at $15 and one 
at $22 (I paid $50something for mine but its really nice quality stuff).

  I think it would work better than batteries.

     mike

On 06/18/2010 10:28 AM, john niolon wrote:
> any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
> out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
> better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...
>
> mostly 18-22 wire  so run time wouldn't be too much problem.... how do they
> hold up>>
>
> thanks
> John

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Jun 18 12:30:47 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:30:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4C1BBB57.4040802@xxiii.com>

On 6/18/2010 1:28 PM, john niolon wrote:
> any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
> out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
> better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...

I've used the Wahl Iso-Tip ones (link below) for nearly 30 years now, and they're great for small electronics or car stereo work.  The tips are rather fragile and eventually their ceramic innards start to crumble out and they don't conduct heat well.  They're only equivalent to a 20W-ish plug-in iron, and outdoors the temp and breeze can sap some heat too so don't expect to do big stuff.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=370-220

There are butane ones that might offer more heat but I've not used them.

-Wayne

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jun 18 12:32:02 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:32:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <0L48002BA3HQODM0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I haven't heard very good reports on them, so I went with a Portasol 
butane soldering iron.  It is still portable, and it works great!

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 01:28 PM 6/18/2010, john niolon wrote:
>any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
>out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
>better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...
>
>mostly 18-22 wire  so run time wouldn't be too much problem.... how do they
>hold up >>

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 18 12:38:26 2010
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:38:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>

Get one of the propane models - work very well, and batteries never die! -
you can keep a propane refill in your toolbox for decades!


Thanks

Ron Schmittou
Ron_S at agps.us

Anna Office (972) 369-8640 Ext 210                          
Auto Fwd (469) 844-5482
Cell (214) 862-1871
                           


-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 12:29 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons

any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...

mostly 18-22 wire  so run time wouldn't be too much problem.... how do they
hold up >>

thanks
John



It is not only what we do,
 but also what we do not do,
for which we are accountable.
   Jean Baptiste Moliere
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rs1121 at earthlink.net

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 18 16:07:15 2010
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:07:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
	<009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>
Message-ID: <00ac01cb0f32$9cf7ad50$d6e707f0$@net>

Duh - Butane is what I meant (cigarette lighter refill type)

Ok - so whats the difference between Butane and Propane anyway - they both
work the same for making the balloon bombs!

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Ron Schmittou
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 1:38 PM
To: 'john niolon'; 'shop-talk'
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons

Get one of the propane models - work very well, and batteries never die! -
you can keep a propane refill in your toolbox for decades!


Ron

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jun 18 16:14:51 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:14:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4C1BEFDB.6080306@hornesystemstx.com>

One question to ask before which iron to buy, is what type of solder you 
plan on using. The new lead free solder requires a higher temperature, I 
use an 800 deg. Iron. For lead/tin solder you can do fine with a 700 
deg. iron. I have a 35 Watt iron in my portable tool box that worked 
fine for lead/tin, but didn't hack it with the lead free solder.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake john niolon, On 6/18/2010 12:28 PM:
> any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
> out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
> better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...
>
> mostly 18-22 wire  so run time wouldn't be too much problem.... how do they
> hold up >>
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
> It is not only what we do,
>  but also what we do not do,
> for which we are accountable.
>    Jean Baptiste Moliere
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Jun 18 16:43:19 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:43:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>,
	<009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>
Message-ID: <COL115-W609F7221BE3543E334885CCC00@phx.gbl>

I have one of the Cold Heat brand irons that I picked up for $12 on an impulse
on close-out somewhere.  It works in a pinch, but I wouldn't recommend it for
any kind of regular use.  There is a good review of it here:
http://www.applefritter.com/node/9642.  Be sure to read down to the comment
from the Weller rep.

> From: rs1121 at earthlink.net
> To: jniolon at bham.rr.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:38:26 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
>
> Get one of the propane models - work very well, and batteries never die! -
> you can keep a propane refill in your toolbox for decades!
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Ron Schmittou
> Ron_S at agps.us
>
> Anna Office (972) 369-8640 Ext 210
> Auto Fwd (469) 844-5482
> Cell (214) 862-1871
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 12:29 PM
> To: shop-talk
> Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
>
> any suggestions ?? recommendations ??   had to do some phone line soldering
> out in the field today and wondered if this little battery jobs would work.
> better than 200' of extension cord and my old Weller pencil iron...
>
> mostly 18-22 wire  so run time wouldn't be too much problem.... how do they
> hold up >>
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
> It is not only what we do,
>  but also what we do not do,
> for which we are accountable.
>    Jean Baptiste Moliere
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rs1121 at earthlink.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com
>

_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL
:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 18 17:10:07 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:10:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <00ac01cb0f32$9cf7ad50$d6e707f0$@net>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
	<009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>
	<00ac01cb0f32$9cf7ad50$d6e707f0$@net>
Message-ID: <00a501cb0f3b$64f92dd0$2eeb8970$@rr.com>

> Ok - so whats the difference between Butane and Propane anyway

Not a whole lot, but they have slightly different properties.  Butane is
C4H10, while propane is C3H8.  Butane has a lower boiling point, so works
even in extremely cold weather, while pure propane can have problems when
it's really cold.  

-- Randall 

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jun 18 17:13:13 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:13:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <00ac01cb0f32$9cf7ad50$d6e707f0$@net>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
	<009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>
	<00ac01cb0f32$9cf7ad50$d6e707f0$@net>
Message-ID: <0L480011TGJQSFH0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, the difference is one carbon and two hydrogen atoms.

Propane is C3H8
Butane is C4H10

That would be the chemist's answer, anyway.  In fact, they add butane 
to propane when they make LPG (liquid propane gas).  And I'm not sure 
if the butane they sell for lighters (and soldering irons) is really 
a mixture as well.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 06:07 PM 6/18/2010, Ron Schmittou wrote:
>Ok - so whats the difference between Butane and Propane anyway - they both
>work the same for making the balloon bombs!

From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Jun 18 18:50:34 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:50:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4C1C145A.5010104@bradakis.com>

You'd have to be nuts to try and use filberts as a mat when
laying up composites, I, uh, never mind, I think I misread
the subject line.

mjb.

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jun 18 19:00:17 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 21:00:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <4C1BA1A9.6010507@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <OFD422CFD3.F920F266-ON85257747.00064499-85257747.00065BD9@mail.megageek.com>

No, I'm back from Afghanistan (for now.)

I put some pictures of the stuff up. 

here is the link...

http://tinyurl.com/3yant6c 

What do you think?

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




"David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net> 
06/18/2010 12:32 PM

To
eric at megageek.com
cc
shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting






Do we have to come to Afghanistan to get it?

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> If anyone here wants it, you can have it for free.  Either come pick it 
up
> or pay for shipping (I'm guessing it would be expensive to ship.)

From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Jun 18 21:22:10 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 21:22:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OFD422CFD3.F920F266-ON85257747.00064499-85257747.00065BD9@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFD422CFD3.F920F266-ON85257747.00064499-85257747.00065BD9@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4C1C37E2.2090002@bradakis.com>

That does look like insulating batting or filler and not the woven
fabric one would use when laying up something in fiberglass.  That's
what I originally thought you were talking about.

mjb.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 18 21:32:58 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 20:32:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <00a501cb0f3b$64f92dd0$2eeb8970$@rr.com>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC><009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net><00ac01cb0f32$9cf7ad50$d6e707f0$@net>
	<00a501cb0f3b$64f92dd0$2eeb8970$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <012901cb0f60$1d494810$0301a8c0@randall>

Randall babbled:

>  Butane has a lower boiling 
> point, 

Sorry, folks, I got this backwards.  Propane has a lower boiling point than
either isobutane or butane-n.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 19 06:44:55 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 08:44:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery operated soldering irons
In-Reply-To: <00a501cb0f3b$64f92dd0$2eeb8970$@rr.com>
References: <79C8570AA486400E982903EF704A8F65@OwnerPC>
	<009901cb0f15$80676260$81362720$@net>
	<00ac01cb0f32$9cf7ad50$d6e707f0$@net>
	<00a501cb0f3b$64f92dd0$2eeb8970$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimjKew_DWPThvtjzWvjRmCa4DdMFKYmdT6T6eVV@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> Ok - so whats the difference between Butane and Propane anyway
>
> Not a whole lot, but they have slightly different properties. B Butane is
> C4H10, while propane is C3H8. B Butane has a lower boiling point, so works
> even in extremely cold weather, while pure propane can have problems when
> it's really cold.

butane doesn't work below ~freezing.  Boiling point is, as I recall,
just below 0 C.  Iso-butane boils about -10 C.  (most commercial
butane fuels are a mixture of the two, typically 80% butane 20%
iso-butane, but the mix varies from supplier to supplier.  (Iso-butane
is a bit more valuable than butane; it's used as a refrigerant, and as
feedstock in some chemical reactions).  Propane has a boiling point of
about -40.  (Commercial propane is a mix of propane, butane,
iso-butane, and a others; ratios vary wildly.  Most US propane is
pretty much propane.  )

Butane has about 20% more energy per kilogram than propane, and a bit
less than natural gas.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun 19 06:50:56 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 08:50:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <4C1C37E2.2090002@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <OFF3620D88.A36B0818-ON85257747.00475C00-85257747.00476B8C@mail.megageek.com>

So is it worth anything to anyone?  What is it called so I can list it on 
ebay?

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/19/2010 12:03 AM

To
shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting






That does look like insulating batting or filler and not the woven
fabric one would use when laying up something in fiberglass.  That's
what I originally thought you were talking about.

mjb.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 12:00:09 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:00:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OFF3620D88.A36B0818-ON85257747.00475C00-85257747.00476B8C@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF3620D88.A36B0818-ON85257747.00475C00-85257747.00476B8C@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4C1D05A9.5040708@verizon.net>

It doesn't appear to be woven mat for lamination, but it seems to be too 
thin to be insulation.  Is there any kind of woven scrim attached to it? 
  If so, it may be some sort of bulk air filter material.

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> So is it worth anything to anyone?  What is it called so I can list it on
> ebay?
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
>
> Mark J Bradakis<mark at bradakis.com>
> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 06/19/2010 12:03 AM
>
> To
> shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That does look like insulating batting or filler and not the woven
> fabric one would use when laying up something in fiberglass.  That's
> what I originally thought you were talking about.
>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at verizon.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 19 14:09:13 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:09:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OFD422CFD3.F920F266-ON85257747.00064499-85257747.00065BD9@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4C1BA1A9.6010507@verizon.net>
	<OFD422CFD3.F920F266-ON85257747.00064499-85257747.00065BD9@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <000001cb0feb$49d295e0$0301a8c0@randall>

> http://tinyurl.com/3yant6c 
> 
> What do you think?

I am certainly no expert, but it looks to me like industrial grade (rather
than body shop) fiberglass mat; as used for molding large items from
fiberglass (like hot tubs). 
http://hubpages.com/hub/fiberglass-mat 

It also looks to be somewhat separated, from long storage.  As I understand
it, if it has also gotten damp, it may be useless now.  Fiberglass mat tends
to hold water, which interferes with the resin bonding properly to the mat.
Or so I've been told, anyway.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 19 17:39:52 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:39:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Filber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <000001cb0feb$49d295e0$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <4C1BA1A9.6010507@verizon.net>
	<OFD422CFD3.F920F266-ON85257747.00064499-85257747.00065BD9@mail.megageek.com>
	<000001cb0feb$49d295e0$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMUntSIIZXesVSPNOv8ZiATyqjqJ-lehzshll9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> http://tinyurl.com/3yant6c
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> I am certainly no expert, but it looks to me like industrial grade (rather
> than body shop) fiberglass mat; as used for molding large items from
> fiberglass (like hot tubs).
> http://hubpages.com/hub/fiberglass-mat

Fiberglass roving comes in all sorts of different forms.  Different
weights (usually expressed oz/sq yd, but sometimes gsm, or something
else) and different fiber orientations, woven (like cloth, only sort
I've seen used for auto repair) and nonwoven, in needle felted,
thermally bonded, and just chopped up.

>

> It also looks to be somewhat separated, from long storage. B As I
understand
> it, if it has also gotten damp, it may be useless now. B Fiberglass mat
tends
> to hold water, which interferes with the resin bonding properly to the mat.
> Or so I've been told, anyway.

that's what I"ve been told, too.
--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 20 12:05:48 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 13:05:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
Message-ID: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>

I want to run communications cable(s) to a detached garage.
Is there a direct burial composite cable with cat 5 and rg6 available?

I have found several places selling a composite cable which contains one or
two cat 5 cables and one or two rg6 cables.
None of the ones I've found seem to be rated for direct burial.
Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jun 20 13:42:02 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 15:42:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0L4B00I4FW437KP0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I know I'm not answering the question, but if it was me, I would use 
some kind of conduit.  It gives you the ability to pull a different 
kind of cable as technology changes, or add something else that you 
hadn't thought of.  Also lets you replace a cable that fails.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net


At 02:05 PM 6/20/2010, Rich White wrote:
>I want to run communications cable(s) to a detached garage.
>Is there a direct burial composite cable with cat 5 and rg6 available?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jun 20 14:23:01 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:23:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilDS5KNY6GSKR9P45PjsIlU_XMi2kFUEslwau57@mail.gmail.com>

If you're going to dig a trench anyway, can't you just put in a PVC
conduit?  One inch PVC pipe is incredibly cheap...

Doug

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I want to run communications cable(s) to a detached garage.
> Is there a direct burial composite cable with cat 5 and rg6 available?
>
> I have found several places selling a composite cable which contains one or
> two cat 5 cables and one or two rg6 cables.
> None of the ones I've found seem to be rated for direct burial.
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jun 20 15:08:30 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:08:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C1E834E.2030704@hornesystemstx.com>

Rich,

I needed to run several CAT-5 and RG6 cables to my shop, about 180' by 
cable length from the house. I ran a 1.25" conduit between the 
buildings, then ran regular cables through it. One reason I went this 
route is that in the futures there may be need to run another type of 
cable between the buildings, and I didn't want to have to bury a new 
cable. With the conduit I can use one of the old cables as a pull wire 
to pull the new wire in.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Rich White, On 6/20/2010 1:05 PM:
> I want to run communications cable(s) to a detached garage.
> Is there a direct burial composite cable with cat 5 and rg6 available?
>
> I have found several places selling a composite cable which contains one or
> two cat 5 cables and one or two rg6 cables.
> None of the ones I've found seem to be rated for direct burial.
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF587L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 20 16:06:55 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:06:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikPs07pTDMw5NVApD9EITbpftMLfUczhuHjhxHO@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I want to run communications cable(s) to a detached garage.
> Is there a direct burial composite cable with cat 5 and rg6 available?
>
> I have found several places selling a composite cable which contains one or
> two cat 5 cables and one or two rg6 cables.
> None of the ones I've found seem to be rated for direct burial.

I've never seen one.  On the other hand, if you're digging a trench
it's not much hard to put two wires in as one.  Pulling the
combination through a wall or ceilling is easier.

I second the recommendation for conduit.  Use sweeps, not elbows.
(They're much larger radius, easier ot pull cable thoruh.)



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at bradakis.com  Sun Jun 20 17:31:56 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:31:56 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <4C1E834E.2030704@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
	<4C1E834E.2030704@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>

I've been thinking about this myself.  After years of renting a shop 
I've had
to move The Fat Chance Garage back to the house.  Or the garage out back,
at least.  I'm thinking I need to run a 220V line for the big compressor and
the welder, a phone line and possibly a network cable if I want to keep
a PC out there.  Maybe even a coax from the TV antenna for the stereo.
Extension cords just don't cut it.

Luckily it is only about a 50 foot run, but I have been thinking of 1inch
conduit - as others have said it could be better in the long run when it
is time to recable.  In my 24 years working in the Computer Science
department I've heard "this will be the last cable we'll need to run"
a few times too many ;-)  Wish I still had that job, I could "borrow"
some good cable...

mjb.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jun 20 19:28:23 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 20:28:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
	<4C1E834E.2030704@hornesystemstx.com> <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <4C1EC037.4020207@hornesystemstx.com>

Mark,

Funny you should say that! In about 1980 the Computer science department 
at UT Austin was renovating its building and they brought in a 
consultant to decide what type of network cable should be run. He 
decreed, correctly, that twisted pair was the cable of the future. 
Unfortunately, he couldn't foresee that telephone wire wouldn't be the 
standard! There was at least 4 times as much cat-3 wire run than could 
ever be used. This was the days of thick net and transceivers. He also 
suggested cable trays throughout, as well as stacked wiring closets on 
each floor. We went from thick net to thin net, then to cat-5, which was 
there up until they tore the building down earlier this year. No telling 
what they will be going with when the new building is in place.

We supported almost 1000 computers on our net in 5 different buildings, 
which can really be a challenge. When I left there about 4 years ago the 
campus network folks were trying to get us to use their network to get 
our data between buildings. They said that our one connection to campus 
was the busiest one on campus. Once I explained that we had 4 other 
networks that were busier than that one they decided that we were fine 
the way we were!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Mark J Bradakis, On 6/20/2010 6:31 PM:
> I've been thinking about this myself.  After years of renting a shop 
> I've had
> to move The Fat Chance Garage back to the house.  Or the garage out back,
> at least.  I'm thinking I need to run a 220V line for the big 
> compressor and
> the welder, a phone line and possibly a network cable if I want to keep
> a PC out there.  Maybe even a coax from the TV antenna for the stereo.
> Extension cords just don't cut it.
>
> Luckily it is only about a 50 foot run, but I have been thinking of 1inch
> conduit - as others have said it could be better in the long run when it
> is time to recable.  In my 24 years working in the Computer Science
> department I've heard "this will be the last cable we'll need to run"
> a few times too many ;-)  Wish I still had that job, I could "borrow"
> some good cable...
>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 20 19:42:28 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:42:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
	<4C1E834E.2030704@hornesystemstx.com> <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinG-4U08cc6Hge-ES_qpo96stETNMQtwqLLwHQM@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:
> I've been thinking about this myself. B After years of renting a shop I've
> had
> to move The Fat Chance Garage back to the house. B Or the garage out back,
> at least. B I'm thinking I need to run a 220V line for the big compressor
and
> the welder, a phone line and possibly a network cable if I want to keep
> a PC out there. B Maybe even a coax from the TV antenna for the stereo.
> Extension cords just don't cut it.
>
> Luckily it is only about a 50 foot run, but I have been thinking of 1inch
> conduit - as others have said it could be better in the long run when it
> is time to recable. B In my 24 years working in the Computer Science
> department I've heard "this will be the last cable we'll need to run"
> a few times too many ;-) B Wish I still had that job, I could "borrow"
> some good cable...

For that, you're going to need bigger than one inch conduit, depending
on what exactly you choose to pull.  Even if code will let you get
away with it, it's going to be a pain to pull replacement.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Sun Jun 20 21:00:57 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 20:00:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
Message-ID: <4C1ED5E9.7000504@milleredp.com>

> Luckily it is only about a 50 foot run, but I have been thinking of 1inch
> conduit - as others have said it could be better in the long run when it
> is time to recable.

You will, of course, want separate conduit runs for power and for data.

On the data side of things, there's very little that can't be done over
Cat6 these days, but some things can take a bunch of pairs and/or the
baluns/transformers/etc. can cost real money so leave room to run twice
as much as you think you'll need.

When we did our remodel circa 2003 I ran what was then called 2+2 (2
Cat5E + 2 RG6 coax) all over the house, plus more Cat5E to specific
places I knew I'd need it, and more RG6 to certain places where I
figured I'd need it.  Then I ran speaker wires around the living room,
master bedroom, and my office.

Right now most of the RG6 goes unused; the DirecTV multiswitch connects
to a pair of coax runs to my office where a pair of DirecTV tuner boxes
reside, but the rest of the video distribution is via (mostly) gigabit
ethernet.

The speaker wires have mostly proven useful, though I wired the living
room for a subwoofer in a location that proved to be awful and so it's
now running over a couple powered preamp-level-to-UTP baluns.

If I were doing it now, I'd skip all but a few specific coax runs and
run a bunch more conduit (right now I've only got a few things in
conduit, like up and down the wall from the crawlspace to the MBR closet
and up to the attic where the termination panels are located) - running
coax inside any conduit size that'll reasonably fit inside a 2x4
studwall just doesn't work.

John.

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jun 20 21:31:47 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 23:31:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinG-4U08cc6Hge-ES_qpo96stETNMQtwqLLwHQM@mail.gmail.c om>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
	<4C1E834E.2030704@hornesystemstx.com> <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>
	<AANLkTinG-4U08cc6Hge-ES_qpo96stETNMQtwqLLwHQM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0L4C00IUMHVF7K20@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

And I don't think code is going to let you put that other stuff in 
with the 220V line, and it probably wouldn't be a good idea even if 
code will let you get away with it.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 09:42 PM 6/20/2010, David Scheidt wrote:
>For that, you're going to need bigger than one inch conduit, depending
>on what exactly you choose to pull.  Even if code will let you get
>away with it, it's going to be a pain to pull replacement.

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jun 20 22:45:10 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 00:45:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <4C1ED5E9.7000504@milleredp.com>
References: <4C1ED5E9.7000504@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <0L4C000FFL7FU250@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

When reading about Cat 5E, Cat 6, etc. you will sometimes see advice 
to future-proof the installation by installing some "Cat 1000", also 
known as empty conduit.  Then you can run whatever you need in the future.

-Steve

From brabel at comcast.net  Mon Jun 21 11:19:32 2010
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 10:19:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
	<4C1E834E.2030704@hornesystemstx.com> <4C1EA4EC.4020701@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <E0295AFD-75E0-47A0-9E53-B0CD63809C74@comcast.net>

> I've been thinking about this myself.  After years of renting a shop I've
had
> to move The Fat Chance Garage back to the house.  Or the garage out back,
> at least.  I'm thinking I need to run a 220V line for the big compressor
and
> the welder, a phone line and possibly a network cable if I want to keep
> a PC out there.  Maybe even a coax from the TV antenna for the stereo.

I ran three conduits to my detached building. One for power, one for
low-voltage such as CAT5 and coax, and the third to connect three-way switches
in both buildings to turn on lights for the walkway between.

Bill Rabel
Anacortes

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Mon Jun 21 14:06:17 2010
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:06:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] communications cable to garage
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W91B084AF317562B00CF26E1C20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilmUgfRwgvzLnYS-vZxu9gvYuvHrzJyRhjAuzgH@mail.gmail.com>

I am looking at how to do this on my own property. The main thing I
want to run is power, but I definitely would like to bring some
network out there as well. I figure that 50A of 240VAC should be
sufficient for this small outbuilding (for HVAC, radio gear, lighting
and powering a bunch of outlets throughout the back yard).

It is certainly a ridiculous amount of available power - especially
given I'm planning to run the entire building on 12VDC normally
(amateur radio shack/small workshop) - but I figure that the small
incremental cost difference between a 15A run of 115AC from the house
and 50A 240VAC is worth the greatly increased flexibility as time goes
by....

I am not running any twisted pair or coax out to the outbuilding (or
the "doghouse" as my wife calls it), because I don't want to risk
lightning damage though the network lines. I'll be running a few pairs
of fiber instead. Equipment to terminate it at each end is pretty
inexpensive, and I can run it in the power conduit without worry of
induced current... Oh, and that probably will have longer legs as
bandwidth "requirements" go up...

-Peter

--
Peter Murray (N3IXY)
Oak Hill, VA


On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I want to run communications cable(s) to a detached garage.
> Is there a direct burial composite cable with cat 5 and rg6 available?
>
> I have found several places selling a composite cable which contains one or
> two cat 5 cables and one or two rg6 cables.
> None of the ones I've found seem to be rated for direct burial.
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF587L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jun 21 14:28:56 2010
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:28:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing mylar coating from door
Message-ID: <1B7A8D03EC09486C9656E6851A17B7F2@john5043a2d406>

I've come across a problem I need ya'lls expertise on.  Neighbor has a storm
door on his house.  when it was installed years ago it came with what I assume
was a vinyl or mylar or something  protective shield over the painted
surface... it was never removed and has now joined itself to the door...   the
film is now discolored and severely adhered to the door.

I've tried mineral spirits, goof-off, acetone, brake cleaner and carb cleaner
to no avail...   I don't want to hurt the finish on the door which is either
paint or powder (not sure)...

any suggestions for removing this baked on coating without damaging the finish
underneath ???


thanks
John






I've learned in life that my primary goal
 is to serve as a bad example

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Jun 21 15:46:53 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:46:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing mylar coating from door
In-Reply-To: <1B7A8D03EC09486C9656E6851A17B7F2@john5043a2d406>
References: <1B7A8D03EC09486C9656E6851A17B7F2@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <4C1FDDCD.1080201@hornesystemstx.com>

Try a heat gun, or the solvent that is used to remove bathtub decals. 
The standard "test in a non-conspicuous place" warning applies.

Most of that kind of protective film is held on by static charge, so I 
wouldn't expect any adhesive to be present. Is it possible that the 
coating is actually a sealing coat that was not intended to be removed 
that is just deteriorating?

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake John Niolon, On 6/21/2010 3:28 PM:
> I've come across a problem I need ya'lls expertise on.  Neighbor has a storm
> door on his house.  when it was installed years ago it came with what I assume
> was a vinyl or mylar or something  protective shield over the painted
> surface... it was never removed and has now joined itself to the door...   the
> film is now discolored and severely adhered to the door.
>
> I've tried mineral spirits, goof-off, acetone, brake cleaner and carb cleaner
> to no avail...   I don't want to hurt the finish on the door which is either
> paint or powder (not sure)...
>
> any suggestions for removing this baked on coating without damaging the finish
> underneath ???
>
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>  is to serve as a bad example
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Mon Jun 21 17:02:24 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:02:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing mylar coating from door
In-Reply-To: <1B7A8D03EC09486C9656E6851A17B7F2@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <20100621230224.MYE4D.24478.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>

As long as you are grasping at straws...

The door regulator in my wife's car failed a few years ago and I use duct tape to hold the window up for a few days.  The adhesive stuck to the glass and I could not get it off when trying all of the same solvents listed below.  I tried rubbing alcohol and it took the adhesive off easily.



> I've come across a problem I need ya'lls expertise on.  Neighbor has a storm
> door on his house.  when it was installed years ago it came with what I assume
> was a vinyl or mylar or something  protective shield over the painted
> surface... it was never removed and has now joined itself to the door...   the
> film is now discolored and severely adhered to the door.
> 
> I've tried mineral spirits, goof-off, acetone, brake cleaner and carb cleaner
> to no avail...   I don't want to hurt the finish on the door which is either
> paint or powder (not sure)...
> 
> any suggestions for removing this baked on coating without damaging the finish
> underneath ???
> 
> 
> thanks
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've learned in life that my primary goal
>  is to serve as a bad example
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjshov8 at tx.rr.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jun 21 20:09:36 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 22:09:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing mylar coating from door
In-Reply-To: <1B7A8D03EC09486C9656E6851A17B7F2@john5043a2d406>
References: <1B7A8D03EC09486C9656E6851A17B7F2@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilo6_Pcw7nXpkgl1jszKDvmeUUc1P7NcBJSZ7z5@mail.gmail.com>

So, when visiting somebody's house, have you ever seen something like
a TV remote or small appliance that had that same peel-off stuff let
on, and had an irresistible urge to peel it off, since you KNOW it is
meant to be temporary?

Doug

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 4:28 PM, John Niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
> I've come across a problem I need ya'lls expertise on.  Neighbor has a
storm
> door on his house.  when it was installed years ago it came with what I
assume
> was a vinyl or mylar or something  protective shield over the painted
> surface... it was never removed and has now joined itself to the door...  
the
> film is now discolored and severely adhered to the door.
>
> I've tried mineral spirits, goof-off, acetone, brake cleaner and carb
cleaner
> to no avail...   I don't want to hurt the finish on the door which is
either
> paint or powder (not sure)...

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:03:19 2010
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:03:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Thread hijack, was: Fiber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6E2EC87F.21A79F53-ON85257746.004BF4C9-85257746.004C3CCD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20100622170139.06ff54a0@yahoo.com>

Hey, Inch!

Saw your pic in Tools of the Trade.  Next time, how about a shout-out 
for your friends here - maybe Mark could give you a team.net sticker 
for the table....  :-)

Cheers!

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jun 22 20:19:51 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:19:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Thread hijack, was: Fiber Glass batting
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20100622170139.06ff54a0@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OFB37DC27E.CFCBDF9B-ON8525774B.000D8DCF-8525774B.000DA83C@mail.megageek.com>

You know, I never even thought about that. 

OK, it's a deal, next time I'm in theater, I'll give "mad props" to my 
homies here at Shop Talk and team.net!  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 




Richard Beels <rbeels at yahoo.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/22/2010 05:14 PM

To
shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] Thread hijack, was: Fiber Glass batting






Hey, Inch!

Saw your pic in Tools of the Trade.  Next time, how about a shout-out 
for your friends here - maybe Mark could give you a team.net sticker 
for the table....  :-)

Cheers!
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eric at megageek.com

From ronglue at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 23 07:40:16 2010
From: ronglue at yahoo.com (Ron Horwitz)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 06:40:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing mylar coating from door
In-Reply-To: <4C1FDDCD.1080201@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <248767.10311.qm@web36306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 6/21/10, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:

> From: Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com>
> 
> Most of that kind of protective film is held on by static
> charge, so I 
> wouldn't expect any adhesive to be present. 

Not exactly true.  For modern electronics, yes.  In the past for electronics, and still current for industrial and transportation applications, there is a cross-linked adhesive, typically acrylic, used.  Adhesive starts out as a low tack removable, and the cross-linking helps to keep the adhesive on the protective film and prevent transfer to the protected good.

Over time the two surfaces become more intimate, and the adhesive builds in strength.  Therefore, the longer it's there, the harder it is to remove.  My guess is that the cross-linking also boosted the chemical resistance, hence the reduced effect of solvent now.

Heat to soften and letting solvent soak on the surface for a while are the best chances.  Maybe a light sanding?


Ron

From t.w.jones1 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 08:34:42 2010
From: t.w.jones1 at gmail.com (Tom Jones)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:34:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing mylar coating from door
In-Reply-To: <248767.10311.qm@web36306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4C1FDDCD.1080201@hornesystemstx.com>
	<248767.10311.qm@web36306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilgKCcJpvH3xvkKP3cIM_ne0V6Rl38Y3UuinM2f@mail.gmail.com>

3M Gemeral Purpose Adhesive Cleaner PN 08984 available at NAPA.
Let it soak in and peel gently. Does not harm painted finishes.
http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?R=MMM08984_0006436602#

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Ron Horwitz <ronglue at yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- On Mon, 6/21/10, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com>
> >
> > Most of that kind of protective film is held on by static
> > charge, so I
> > wouldn't expect any adhesive to be present.
>
> Not exactly true.  For modern electronics, yes.  In the past for
> electronics, and still current for industrial and transportation
> applications, there is a cross-linked adhesive, typically acrylic, used.
>  Adhesive starts out as a low tack removable, and the cross-linking helps to
> keep the adhesive on the protective film and prevent transfer to the
> protected good.
>
> Over time the two surfaces become more intimate, and the adhesive builds in
> strength.  Therefore, the longer it's there, the harder it is to remove.  My
> guess is that the cross-linking also boosted the chemical resistance, hence
> the reduced effect of solvent now.
>
> Heat to soften and letting solvent soak on the surface for a while are the
> best chances.  Maybe a light sanding?
>
>
> Ron
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/t.w.jones1 at gmail.com

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Wed Jun 23 14:34:56 2010
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:34:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] driveway patch
Message-ID: <E9F27D92DCD74D5D8EAF258BADEE92F1@Fest>

Our driveway is looking a little rough nowadays.  Lots of potholes.  Repaving
is out of the question and even cold patch would run alot of money.   Anybody
have any home remedies to fix the potholes ?? I have access to gravel.  Any
ideas ??
Thanks,
Dan

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 19:06:50 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:06:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] driveway patch
In-Reply-To: <E9F27D92DCD74D5D8EAF258BADEE92F1@Fest>
References: <E9F27D92DCD74D5D8EAF258BADEE92F1@Fest>
Message-ID: <4C22AFAA.20103@verizon.net>

How long?  How wide?  Where are you?  What is the original driveway made 
out of?  What are you driving on it?



Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote:
> Our driveway is looking a little rough nowadays.  Lots of potholes.  Repaving
> is out of the question and even cold patch would run alot of money.   Anybody
> have any home remedies to fix the potholes ?? I have access to gravel.  Any
> ideas ??
> Thanks,
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at verizon.net

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 21:47:42 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:47:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] driveway patch
In-Reply-To: <E9F27D92DCD74D5D8EAF258BADEE92F1@Fest>
References: <E9F27D92DCD74D5D8EAF258BADEE92F1@Fest>
Message-ID: <4C22D55E.2070709@comcast.net>

On 6/23/2010 4:34 PM, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote:
> Our driveway is looking a little rough nowadays.  Lots of potholes.  Repaving
> is out of the question and even cold patch would run alot of money.   Anybody
> have any home remedies to fix the potholes ?? I have access to gravel.  Any
> ideas ??
> Thanks,
> Dan
>    
Might consider road millings to fill the holes.  This the layer of 
asphalt they grind off before laying down new asphalt.  If available it 
ususally cheaper than gravel and it packs.  Could even mix in a little 
driveway sealer.

Peter T.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_thomas at comcast.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun 24 15:03:07 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:03:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing mylar coating from door
In-Reply-To: <248767.10311.qm@web36306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4C1FDDCD.1080201@hornesystemstx.com>
	<248767.10311.qm@web36306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003a01cb13e0$a573c1a0$f05b44e0$@rr.com>

> Over time the two surfaces become more intimate, and the adhesive
> builds in strength.  Therefore, the longer it's there, the harder it is
> to remove.  My guess is that the cross-linking also boosted the
> chemical resistance, hence the reduced effect of solvent now.

That probably explains some smoke-color Plexiglas that I was given years
ago.  It had brown paper glued to it to protect the surface; which is now
impossible to remove.  The adhesive is literally stronger than the paper and
so far, has stood up to every solvent I've tried (including some that damage
the plastic).

-- Randall 

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Jun 26 22:37:29 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:37:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead weed eater
Message-ID: <4C26D589.9080809@verizon.net>

I have an old green and yellow Weed Eater string trimmer my wife got 
from her late father.  It has a single line tap-to-feed head and until 
recently worked fine.  Recently the wife complained that it was starting 
and stopping and not running well.  Today it wouldn't run at all.  I 
took it all apart, switch seems good, nothing obviously wrong with the 
motor.  It's a typical wound rotor, permanent magnet brush type motor. I 
put the motor on the bench and tried it with test leads, nothing.  I 
took it apart and cleaned the commutator with a wire wheel and ran an 
awl down the commutator sections. Still nothing.  Brushes are good, 
plenty of length.  When I was looking at the cord a little later I 
discovered one leg had a resistor and .01 mf ceramic capacitor in 
parallel in the line.  The cap looks a little beat up.  Any idea what 
they are for?  Any ideas on the motor?

(I just bought her a new Stihl corded electric trimmer, so it's mostly 
academic at this point but I would still like to know.)

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Mon Jun 28 21:03:42 2010
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (fred thomas)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 03:03:42 -0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel caddy
References: <678777.64940.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FB17F0B2D4A441C99E56A8C41B7B9058@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Inquire, it is not legal to fill a large container or store a large 
container, as for l;eaving it in the bed of the truck, that much weight 
"ALL THE TIME" would just tear it apart.  I think it's a bad idea all 
around.  My  .02   FT
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Vantacich" <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] fuel caddy


> That was my plan, just leave it in the truck bed to fill, then remove it 
> when
> I got home.  As far as blowing up, if I bought a metal caddy didn't roll 
> it
> around in side the truck bed that would eliminate the chance of static
> buildup/discharge.  I know the plastic gas cans will create a static 
> buildup
> if you slide it around the inside of the bed.
>
> I am curious as to whether the caddy comes with any written warning on how 
> to
> transport and fill it.
>
> Frank V.  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
>
>
> --- On Wed, 5/19/10, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] fuel caddy
>> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 6:50 AM
>> Howdy,
>>
>> On Wed, 19 May 2010, David Scheidt wrote:
>> >> Well I am tired of dealing with 5 gallon gas cans
>> and California's special
>> >> spring loaded anti spill gas caps. Yup I am in
>> need of a fuel caddy, 25-30
>> >> gallons with a pump. Another requirement would be,
>> and this is where my
>> >> dilema is I can't seem to find this option, a
>> built in hook on top of the
>> >> unit so I can connect a strap to my front end
>> loader to transfer the unit in
>> >> and out of my truck bed.  Any one out their
>> have any suggestions as to where
>> >> I can find a model with these options?
>> >>
>> > How are you going to get out of your truck at the gas
>> station to fill it? Or are you just planning on blowing
>> yourself up?
>>
>> Why can't he just fill it up in the bed of the truck?
>>
>> Mark
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/res8vz9q at verizon.net

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Mon Jun 28 21:04:56 2010
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (fred thomas)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 03:04:56 -0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<AANLkTik7Q-gEDgzDexaVlSFj9ZIyClibqlxUdvl1dwuh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F1874986706D4DA88CD489D432DE15BF@fred8kwiskhcfu>

====Wal-Mart=== has the used oil drums beside all buildings  !!!!!!  FT
===========================================================================================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Kahler" <brad.kahler at 141.com>
To: <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options


> Thought about it but rejected it due too always having to try and
> source waste oil.  More and more people are going that route which
> means the sources are drying up.  At least thats my perception :)
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:07 AM,  <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:
>> Have you considered waste oil heaters?  My father uses them in his 
>> garage.
> He
>> has a full service garage so there is no shortage of used oil to feed the
>> things.
>>
>>
>>>  >Yeah I know its summer but for me it s time to start thinking about
>>>  >how to heat the new shop.....
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/brad.kahler at 141.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/res8vz9q at verizon.net

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 21:40:52 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:40:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <F1874986706D4DA88CD489D432DE15BF@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<AANLkTik7Q-gEDgzDexaVlSFj9ZIyClibqlxUdvl1dwuh@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1874986706D4DA88CD489D432DE15BF@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTina0JxYnG4zwEevqnS5fh0ORu6Oc9zoc40arExW@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 6:53 PM, fred thomas <frede.thomas2 at verizon.net>
wrote:
> ====Wal-Mart=== has the used oil drums beside all buildings B !!!!!! B FT
>

You're suggesting stealing used oil from Wal-Mart?   Probably a not good
idea.


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Jun 28 21:49:45 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 21:49:45 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTina0JxYnG4zwEevqnS5fh0ORu6Oc9zoc40arExW@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<AANLkTik7Q-gEDgzDexaVlSFj9ZIyClibqlxUdvl1dwuh@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1874986706D4DA88CD489D432DE15BF@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<AANLkTina0JxYnG4zwEevqnS5fh0ORu6Oc9zoc40arExW@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C296D59.2030502@bradakis.com>

Used oil?  Anyone here live on the Louisiana coast?

mjb.

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Jun 29 04:27:03 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 06:27:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel caddy
References: <678777.64940.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<FB17F0B2D4A441C99E56A8C41B7B9058@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <29F49D2CB0B146118F481A1AF646DFF3@mde.state.md.us>

You can find fuel caddy tanks at boating supply stores.  It's not an 
uncommon item or need within the boating world.

I do not know of one with built in tie down hooks.  Not that there is a 
need.  They stand up at the front of the bed, and you hook your strap to the 
front two tie down points, securing the unit against the front bulkhead of 
the truck bed.

As for the spring loaded gas cans, that's actually  Blitz, not a 
requirement.  And it's nation wide, not simply California.  The feds 
mandated automatic vent closer on the cans.  Blitz came up with that evil 
spring loaded design.  Eagle and others have far better setups, but they 
cost a lot more.  You can find the  very expensive but good Eagle cans at 
TrueValue and the like. 

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 06:52:37 2010
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:52:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <4C296D59.2030502@bradakis.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02> 
	<AANLkTik7Q-gEDgzDexaVlSFj9ZIyClibqlxUdvl1dwuh@mail.gmail.com> 
	<F1874986706D4DA88CD489D432DE15BF@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<AANLkTina0JxYnG4zwEevqnS5fh0ORu6Oc9zoc40arExW@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C296D59.2030502@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin1_Z4YXf-2D8iLap1a9B8ErBVIItiinhAmvAJi@mail.gmail.com>

Well, to be fair, *that* oil is as yet unused... though I wouldn't
describe it as "new"!

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 11:49 PM, Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> wrote:
> Used oil?  Anyone here live on the Louisiana coast?
>
> mjb.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Jun 29 07:31:19 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:31:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small Pace trailer axles?
Message-ID: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>

Hi all..I have a 4x8 Pace enclosed trailer, with a torsion suspension axle.
Apparently when the torsion goes away, the entire axle needs to be replaced.
It's welded in place for maximum convenience.

I called my local Pace dealer and they said to bring it down so they can
measure it, because Pace puts on whatever axle is handy at the moment. That's
not convenient for me, working all week and of course I have a motorcycle
event this weekend.

Does anyone have experience with these axles? Good places to buy parts? I'd
like to trust the dealer, but he just didn't sound too confident.

thanks,

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Jun 29 07:53:02 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:53:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small Pace trailer axles?
In-Reply-To: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>
References: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4C29FABE.5040004@hornesystemstx.com>

Do you have full axles, or half axles? Here is a source for a lot of 
trailer stuff that I have had great luck with. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Torsion-Trailer-Half-Axle-2000-per-pair-Camper-1K-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem518fa059c8QQitemZ350302001608QQptZMotorsQ5fRVQ5fTrailerQ5fCamperQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Peace,
Pat
Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 6/29/2010 8:31 AM:
> Hi all..I have a 4x8 Pace enclosed trailer, with a torsion suspension axle.
> Apparently when the torsion goes away, the entire axle needs to be replaced.
> It's welded in place for maximum convenience.
>
> I called my local Pace dealer and they said to bring it down so they can
> measure it, because Pace puts on whatever axle is handy at the moment. That's
> not convenient for me, working all week and of course I have a motorcycle
> event this weekend.
>
> Does anyone have experience with these axles? Good places to buy parts? I'd
> like to trust the dealer, but he just didn't sound too confident.
>
> thanks,
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Jun 29 08:27:46 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:27:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small Pace trailer axles?
In-Reply-To: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <592878658.7527.1277821666041.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
 
> I called my local Pace dealer and they said to bring it down so they
> can
> measure it, because Pace puts on whatever axle is handy at the moment.
> That's
> not convenient for me, working all week and of course I have a
> motorcycle
> event this weekend.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with these axles? Good places to buy
> parts? I'd
> like to trust the dealer, but he just didn't sound too confident.

Tell me.  I have been waiting for MONTHS for the dealer to get in a new axle for my Pace American car hauler.  Seems the previous owners bent the left front trailing arm.  The resultant wheel alignment puts that one tire in a contest with the other three.  Guess who wins.  So I put a ton of wear on one tire.  Dealer got in one axle, then said it was wrong and reordered.  Every Friday they get in a shipment from the factory.  Every Friday, nothing for Phil.  

So I just called them again.  Now he has decided that the measurements must be wrong and I need to bring the trailer in again.  Also he tells me they are open Tuesdays and Thursdays until 8:00, something nobody saw fit to mention before, even when I groused about having to be there before 5:30.  


Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack"
1979 Caterham Super Seven
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
http://www.mnautox.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Jun 29 08:44:16 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 10:44:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small Pace trailer axles?
In-Reply-To: <4C29FABE.5040004@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>
	<4C29FABE.5040004@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <A692E1DA-C705-464A-AE2C-39AEE9812CCC@groupwbench.org>

On Jun 29, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Pat Horne wrote:

> Do you have full axles, or half axles?

I didn't know what that meant until I saw that link :-)

Full axle. I don't recall having a second pair of mounting points into which
to screw the inboard mounts, and I don't see a full axle offering from those
folks. I sent them an email.

It would appear though, that I could buy appropriately sprung half-axles, and
weld in a pair of chassis rails, and use them? The friend I'm staying with is
a pretty good machinist.

From mikey at b2systems.com  Tue Jun 29 08:56:27 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 07:56:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel caddy
In-Reply-To: <FB17F0B2D4A441C99E56A8C41B7B9058@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <678777.64940.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<FB17F0B2D4A441C99E56A8C41B7B9058@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <4C2A099B.0@b2systems.com>

  Where is it not legal ? It certainly is legal in S. Calif. and if its 
legal here it must be legal the entire world just based on super stupid 
rules/laws.  I would just get one from Northen and be done with it.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=fuel+caddy&Nty=1&D=fuel+caddy&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial

   Mike

  On 05/19/2010 11:00 AM, fred thomas wrote:
> Inquire, it is not legal to fill a large container or store a large 
> container, as for l;eaving it in the bed of the truck, that much 
> weight "ALL THE TIME" would just tear it apart.  I think it's a bad 
> idea all around.  My  .02   FT
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Vantacich" 
> <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; "Mark Andy" 
> <marka at maracing.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] fuel caddy
>
>
>> That was my plan, just leave it in the truck bed to fill, then remove 
>> it when
>> I got home.  As far as blowing up, if I bought a metal caddy didn't 
>> roll it
>> around in side the truck bed that would eliminate the chance of static
>> buildup/discharge.  I know the plastic gas cans will create a static 
>> buildup
>> if you slide it around the inside of the bed.
>>
>> I am curious as to whether the caddy comes with any written warning 
>> on how to
>> transport and fill it.
>>
>> Frank V.  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 5/19/10, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] fuel caddy
>>> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 6:50 AM
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> On Wed, 19 May 2010, David Scheidt wrote:
>>> >> Well I am tired of dealing with 5 gallon gas cans
>>> and California's special
>>> >> spring loaded anti spill gas caps. Yup I am in
>>> need of a fuel caddy, 25-30
>>> >> gallons with a pump. Another requirement would be,
>>> and this is where my
>>> >> dilema is I can't seem to find this option, a
>>> built in hook on top of the
>>> >> unit so I can connect a strap to my front end
>>> loader to transfer the unit in
>>> >> and out of my truck bed.  Any one out their
>>> have any suggestions as to where
>>> >> I can find a model with these options?
>>> >>
>>> > How are you going to get out of your truck at the gas
>>> station to fill it? Or are you just planning on blowing
>>> yourself up?
>>>
>>> Why can't he just fill it up in the bed of the truck?
>>>
>>> Mark 
> eam.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mikey at b2systems.com

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Jun 29 09:23:22 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 11:23:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small Pace trailer axles?
References: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <D900659C772B450EB30778BBFAF63036@mde.state.md.us>

That e-bay link looked like good replacement pieces for torsion axles. 
Since the trailer is light, those units will probably do just fine. 
Bolt/weld them on and be done with it.

Full width axles can be had from any number of places.  Mail order or walk 
in.  Even Walmart often has trailer axles.  Getting one the proper width 
might require mail order.  Don't see the need for a full width axle on a 
little 4x8 trailer though, particularly if it's an odd size that you'd have 
to wait for.

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 09:28:44 2010
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 10:28:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small Pace trailer axles?
In-Reply-To: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>
References: <C91F55ED-5034-46D2-8E8C-F270C103FB29@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilXA0Sznw_HJpXnDp7HrJkFp3KdiSJ5dYy7YBDs@mail.gmail.com>

Northern Tool stores appear to have a pretty wide selection of axle
assemblies. If there's not one near you, I'd look at a Tractor Supply,

Ron

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> Hi all..I have a 4x8 Pace enclosed trailer, with a torsion suspension axle.
> Apparently when the torsion goes away, the entire axle needs to be replaced.
> It's welded in place for maximum convenience.
>
> I called my local Pace dealer and they said to bring it down so they can
> measure it, because Pace puts on whatever axle is handy at the moment. That's
> not convenient for me, working all week and of course I have a motorcycle
> event this weekend.
>
> Does anyone have experience with these axles? Good places to buy parts? I'd
> like to trust the dealer, but he just didn't sound too confident.
>
> thanks,

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Jun 30 16:07:49 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:07:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTina0JxYnG4zwEevqnS5fh0ORu6Oc9zoc40arExW@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<AANLkTik7Q-gEDgzDexaVlSFj9ZIyClibqlxUdvl1dwuh@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1874986706D4DA88CD489D432DE15BF@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<AANLkTina0JxYnG4zwEevqnS5fh0ORu6Oc9zoc40arExW@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2BC035.9050303@justbrits.com>

<< You're suggesting stealing used oil from Wal-Mart?
Probably a not good idea. >>

GOTTA agree wid DAT, David !!!  LOL

Ed

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Wed Jun 30 16:31:42 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:31:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop heating options
In-Reply-To: <4C2BC035.9050303@justbrits.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100609094944.0446ed38@cox.net>
	<20100609150741.31SLS.303166.root@cdptpa-web24-z02>
	<AANLkTik7Q-gEDgzDexaVlSFj9ZIyClibqlxUdvl1dwuh@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1874986706D4DA88CD489D432DE15BF@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<AANLkTina0JxYnG4zwEevqnS5fh0ORu6Oc9zoc40arExW@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2BC035.9050303@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <4C2BC5CE.5040501@tx.rr.com>

The company that my wife works for collects and processes used cooking 
oil from restaurnants.  This stuff must be hauled away, can't just be 
dumpd in the trash.  But it does have value, and is used in production 
of other products.  Of course now biodiesel has been added to that list.

Depending on the economic conditions at any given time, the raw material 
value vs. the haul-away cost can go back and forth.  Some days they have 
to pay to have the stuff hauled off, other days they essentially sell 
it.  So stealing used cooking oil could be viewed as a non-theft or 
could be viewed as a legitimate theft of property.

Bill
> << You're suggesting stealing used oil from Wal-Mart?
> Probably a not good idea. >>
>
> GOTTA agree wid DAT, David !!!  LOL

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jun 30 19:43:23 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:43:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Architect Costs
Message-ID: <COL115-W40CC6117CC7EF8D29E5058CCCD0@phx.gbl>

I am planning on having a small (12x15) addition built on to the back of my
house that will slightly enlarge the kitchen and give us an upstairs walk-in
closet and laundry room.  The contractor (who is the same person who built my
garage and whom I trust completely) will be building the shell and only
finishing it enough inside and out to get the occupancy permit.  We will then
handle the kitchen and bathroom remodeling.  When we first started considering
the addition (almost a year ago), we hired the same architect who designed our
garage to draw up preliminary sketches for the addition.  We went through
several iterations and finally settled on a design, which is what we used to
get the rough costs for construction.  The plans are not enough to actually
use for a permit or to guide construction, which is what brings me to my
question.

We paid the architect (actually, the company he worked for at the time) around
$2300 for the initial design work, which I think was about what the total
garage plans cost us 5 years ago.  Now that we are ready to go ahead, he has
given us an estimate for finishing the job and preparing the final plans.
(For what its worth, he got laid off of his previous job and is now working on
his own.)  He estimates that preparing the construction documents will take 28
to 34 hours at a cost of $85/hour, for a total of $2380-$2890.  We would then
be charged an additional $85/hour for any time he needs to spend on the site,
working with the contractor on any issues that may come up once they start to
take down the back wall.

The sum total of my experience with architects is the experience with this guy
when he designed our garage, so the only comparison I have is what he charged
us to design the garage.  On the positive side, he and our contractor have
worked together before (the contractor is actually the one who recommended him
in the first place) and we were happy with his work on the garage and the
initial design of the addition.  On the other hand, he will have charged us
over $5,000 for designing and spec'ing a 12x15 two story addition that doesn't
include any interior design.  To those of you who know, does this seem high?
I don't mind paying a little extra just for the fact that he and the
contractor work together well, but I don't want to be funding this guy's
unemployment either.

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL
:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Jun 30 20:01:12 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:01:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Architect Costs
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W40CC6117CC7EF8D29E5058CCCD0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W40CC6117CC7EF8D29E5058CCCD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <31A02F2AB3484FF6AA618DBA82CA3966@EricJRussellPC>

It does seem high but consider what a few 'change' orders could add to the 
job if everything is not planned out well before construction begins.

And isn't everything negotiable? Make a counter offer with a price you'd be 
more comfortable with.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
> I don't mind paying a little extra just for the fact that he and the
> contractor work together well, but I don't want to be funding this guy's
> unemployment either.

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Wed Jun 30 20:45:51 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:45:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Architect Costs
In-Reply-To: <31A02F2AB3484FF6AA618DBA82CA3966@EricJRussellPC>
References: <COL115-W40CC6117CC7EF8D29E5058CCCD0@phx.gbl>
	<31A02F2AB3484FF6AA618DBA82CA3966@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <4C2C015F.5010003@tx.rr.com>

The quoted hours seem high for the size of the project.  Ask the 
contractor how much drawing he needs and provide that much if possible. 

But note that costs are negotiable.  The architecture industry has been 
hit hard by downturns in the economy.  Lofs of companies have been 
laying off employees.  If this guy is working from house maybe he could 
work for $50/hour.


> It does seem high but consider what a few 'change' orders could add to 
> the job if everything is not planned out well before construction begins.
>
> And isn't everything negotiable? Make a counter offer with a price 
> you'd be more comfortable with.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> I don't mind paying a little extra just for the fact that he and the
>> contractor work together well, but I don't want to be funding this guy's
>> unemployment either.
> __

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jun 30 20:48:01 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:48:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Architect Costs
In-Reply-To: <31A02F2AB3484FF6AA618DBA82CA3966@EricJRussellPC>
References: <COL115-W40CC6117CC7EF8D29E5058CCCD0@phx.gbl>,
	<31A02F2AB3484FF6AA618DBA82CA3966@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <COL115-W65A68A028778712E2620BACCCD0@phx.gbl>

Thanks Eric.  I appreciate the advice.

> From: ejrussell at mebtel.net
> To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Architect Costs
> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:01:12 -0400
>
> It does seem high but consider what a few 'change' orders could add to the
> job if everything is not planned out well before construction begins.
>
> And isn't everything negotiable? Make a counter offer with a price you'd be
> more comfortable with.
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
> ----- Original Message -----
> > I don't mind paying a little extra just for the fact that he and the
> > contractor work together well, but I don't want to be funding this guy's
> > unemployment either.
>

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From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Jun 30 21:02:35 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:02:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Architect Costs
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W40CC6117CC7EF8D29E5058CCCD0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W40CC6117CC7EF8D29E5058CCCD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C2C054B.2050600@justbrits.com>

Jim, from experience<G>, I would ask the contractor if he
KNOWS for-a-fact that the architect has actually WORKED
on building something and HOW a hammer works<G>.

You would really surprised at the number of them that have
ZERO 'real life' experience and just know how to "draw"!!

Can be a VERY non-pretty thing<F>!!

Ed