From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jan  1 10:47:58 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:47:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
References: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Hello all and Happy New Year.  I am getting ready to install a remote 
car start unit.  The installation manual says:

If you use tapping connectors such as T-Taps (not to be confused with 
Scotch-locks), avoid using them in higher-current applications 
(constant 12V, ground, etc.)  These connectors are inferior in 
quality and should be avoided.

So, can someone tell me the difference between T-Taps and 
Scotch-locks?  I always thought that "Scotchlok" was just 3M's brand 
name for T-Taps.  I can find lots of arguments online about how 
soldering is better.  In the discussions, it seems that many people 
seem to agree with my manual, and they treat scotch-locks and T-Taps 
as different things.  Can anybody clear this up for me?  Thanks.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 12:25:38 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:25:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
	<0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001011125j6c706047vde3c31114a3c6c17@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>wrote:

> Hello all and Happy New Year.  I am getting ready to install a remote car
> start unit.  The installation manual says:
>
> If you use tapping connectors such as T-Taps (not to be confused with
> Scotch-locks), avoid using them in higher-current applications (constant
> 12V, ground, etc.)  These connectors are inferior in quality and should be
> avoided.
>
> So, can someone tell me the difference between T-Taps and Scotch-locks?  I
> always thought that "Scotchlok" was just 3M's brand name for T-Taps.  I can
> find lots of arguments online about how soldering is better.  In the
> discussions, it seems that many people seem to agree with my manual, and
> they treat scotch-locks and T-Taps as different things.  Can anybody clear
> this up for me?  Thanks.
>

Scotchlok is a 3-m trademark for a number of "insulation displacing
connectors", that is, ones that don't require stripping the wire.  The range
includes the various t-connectors (which is what I think of when I hear
"scotchlok", too) but also a number of other connectors, including pretty
standard types, and a bunch of stuff used for structured cabling.  Wouldn't
let any of them near a car, though.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Jan  1 12:35:52 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 11:35:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
	<0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4B3E4E98.4090604@verizon.net>

Scotch-locks are 3M's version of wire nuts.  You have to have two (or 
more) stripped wire ends to connect with them.  T taps are crimp on 
connectors that connect in the middle of a wire, no cutting necessary as 
the metal connector in the T tap cuts the insulation when the connector 
is crimped onto the wire.

I generally regard T-taps as a Bad Thing and won't use them on my 
motorcycles or cars. (I try to avoid wire nuts, too.)  They get loose, 
can cut the wire, and generally cause problems.  I prefer a soldered 
splice on motorcycles, or, better  yet, a fused auxiliary distribution 
panel.

Steven Trovato wrote:
> Hello all and Happy New Year.  I am getting ready to install a remote
> car start unit. The installation manual says:
>
> If you use tapping connectors such as T-Taps (not to be confused with
> Scotch-locks), avoid using them in higher-current applications (constant
> 12V, ground, etc.) These connectors are inferior in quality and should
> be avoided.
>
> So, can someone tell me the difference between T-Taps and Scotch-locks?
> I always thought that "Scotchlok" was just 3M's brand name for T-Taps. I
> can find lots of arguments online about how soldering is better. In the
> discussions, it seems that many people seem to agree with my manual, and
> they treat scotch-locks and T-Taps as different things. Can anybody
> clear this up for me? Thanks.
>
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Fri Jan  1 12:41:07 2010
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 19:41:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <1709559555.7306051262374867171.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

T-Tap (a Scotchlok product by 3M) is an insulation displacement connector on one wire only.  The other connection to the circuit is by a male spade terminal plugged into the stem of the Tee.  <http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20S4K7_nid=GS3MTHGQSCbeVB2NDGZBTHgl> shows the T-Tap.  It doesn't show how the male spade plugs in, but it would go into the flag sticking away from the wire in the picture.  The traditional Scotchlok breaks the insulation on two parallel wires and connects them together.

Personally, I'd try to go with stripping and crimping wherever possible.  Soldering will put a stress riser at the joint - wire strands will break where they leave the solder (where they get bent sharply).  The crimps support the strands through the transition from constrained to free much better.

Does that help?
Donald.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Trovato" <strovato at optonline.net>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, January 1, 2010 12:47:58 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps

Hello all and Happy New Year.  I am getting ready to install a remote 
car start unit.  The installation manual says:

If you use tapping connectors such as T-Taps (not to be confused with 
Scotch-locks), avoid using them in higher-current applications 
(constant 12V, ground, etc.)  These connectors are inferior in 
quality and should be avoided.

So, can someone tell me the difference between T-Taps and 
Scotch-locks?  I always thought that "Scotchlok" was just 3M's brand 
name for T-Taps.  I can find lots of arguments online about how 
soldering is better.  In the discussions, it seems that many people 
seem to agree with my manual, and they treat scotch-locks and T-Taps 
as different things.  Can anybody clear this up for me?  Thanks.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net
Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jan  1 12:41:44 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 14:41:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001011125j6c706047vde3c31114a3c6c17@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
	<0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2400a5d41001011125j6c706047vde3c31114a3c6c17@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0KVL0075T2RWI3M0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

David,

OK, I guess there are scotchlok connectors that
do other things than join into a wire in a "T"
fashion.  But it still doesn't explain to me the
distinction being made in the manual.  Any
comments would apply to all insulation displacing
connectors, not just the "T" ones, I would
think.  So I guess I'm still confused.  There are
already plenty of flame wars out there about
using these for alarm and stereo
installations.  I was hoping not to start another
one.  I would like to understand the terminology,
though.  BTW, there are also these things called
posi-locks that some claim are better.  Check out: www.posi-lock.com.

-Steve

At 02:25 PM 1/1/2010, David Scheidt wrote:
>Scotchlok is a 3-m trademark for a number of
>"insulation displacing connectors", that is,
>ones that don't require stripping the
>wire.B  The range includes the various
>t-connectors (which is what I think of when I
>hear "scotchlok", too) but also a number of
>other connectors, including pretty standard
>types, and a bunch of stuff used for structured
>cabling.B  Wouldn't let any of them near a car, though.

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jan  1 12:55:18 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 14:55:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
References: <0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <0KVL00AHP3CC3A00@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

So, a T-Tap is an insulation displacement connector on one wire, used 
to connect to a spade terminal on another.  And the equivalent 
scotchlok is essentially two insulation displacement connectors in 
one, electrically connected together.  And in the common vernacular, 
none of this really has anything to do with whether or not either one 
is actually made by 3M.  One might then consider a T-Tap to be better 
because it is relying on only one insulation displacement connection, 
rather than two?  OK, I suppose if what I just said is correct, then 
I understand it now.  Thanks.

-Steve

At 02:41 PM 1/1/2010, Donald H Locker wrote:
>T-Tap (a Scotchlok product by 3M) is an insulation displacement 
>connector on one wire only.  The other connection to the circuit is 
>by a male spade terminal plugged into the stem of the 
>Tee. 
><http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20S4K7_nid=GS3MTHGQSCbeVB2NDGZBTHgl> 
>shows the T-Tap.  It doesn't show how the male spade plugs in, but 
>it would go into the flag sticking away from the wire in the 
>picture.  The traditional Scotchlok breaks the insulation on two 
>parallel wires and connects them together.

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jan  1 13:02:46 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 15:02:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <4B3E4E98.4090604@verizon.net>
References: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
	<0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<4B3E4E98.4090604@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <0KVL007W13OOYH50@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

David,

To me, scotch-locks are things that connect wires without stripping 
them.  3M does seem to use the term for a ton of different items, so 
maybe the wire nut type is called that too.

-Steve

At 02:35 PM 1/1/2010, David C. wrote:
>Scotch-locks are 3M's version of wire nuts.  You have to have two 
>(or more) stripped wire ends to connect with them.  T taps are crimp 
>on connectors that connect in the middle of a wire, no cutting 
>necessary as the metal connector in the T tap cuts the insulation 
>when the connector is crimped onto the wire.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan  1 18:41:05 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 17:41:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <36.FA.07778.134AE3B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> If you use tapping connectors such as T-Taps (not to be confused with 
> Scotch-locks), avoid using them in higher-current applications 
> (constant 12V, ground, etc.)  These connectors are inferior in 
> quality and should be avoided.

Regardless of what you call them, IMO insulation-displacement connectors are
to be avoided in higher-current applications period.  They can work under
optimum conditions, but conditions are rarely optimum.  (Do you really know
exactly what size wire is inside that insulation?  It's important ...)

As I think this thread has demonstrated, the names mean different things to
different people; in spite of the fact that 3M has a trademark on
"Scotchlok", and as noted offers many different styles of IDC connector
under that name.  3M's definition of "T-Tap" is as Donald noted; a single
IDC paired with a spade disconnect.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Jan  1 20:20:16 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:20:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <36.FA.07778.134AE3B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<36.FA.07778.134AE3B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0KVL005VIO0VJG50@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Have any of you tried the posi-lock type?   Check out: www.posi-lock.com.

-Steve

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Jan  1 23:29:58 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:29:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: Re:  Scotch-locks and T-Taps]
Message-ID: <4B3EE7E6.3030700@verizon.net>

I have used them on my motorcycle(s), and they have received generally
favorable reports on the various motorcycle forums I have been on.  They
seem to make a very positive connection and are easily disassembled. I
keep a few of them in my emergency parts bag along with some wire and
other connectors.

Steven Trovato wrote:
> Have any of you tried the posi-lock type?  Check out: www.posi-lock.com.
>
> -Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From marka at maracing.com  Sat Jan  2 19:05:16 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 21:05:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <0KVL0075T2RWI3M0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
	<0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2400a5d41001011125j6c706047vde3c31114a3c6c17@mail.gmail.com>
	<0KVL0075T2RWI3M0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001022100230.22992@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Steven Trovato wrote:
> BTW, there are also these things called posi-locks that some claim are 
> better.  Check out: www.posi-lock.com.

Interesting.  I might have to try some of these.

I was thinking about this problem recently... Typically I cut the wire, 
strip both sides, and use a crimp connector with one wire in one side and 
two wires (original plus new) on the other side.  Then either heat shrink 
tubing if I have room or electrical tape if not to help support the wire.

Downside with that approach is that if there's not much room between the 
wire end and the harness its coming from, this is a PITA, plus if the wire 
sizes aren't pretty close you can have the case where the proper connector 
for a single wire isn't the same as the proper connector for two wires.

I've used what I called t-taps before (no idea who the actual maker was, 
you wrapped it around the wire to be tapped and fed in the new wire in 
another slot, then clamped the thing together with pliers and the plastic 
tab locked in place.  Those never gave me any sense of comfort at all, and 
I pretty much refuse to use them now.

Mark

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jan  2 22:08:18 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 09:38:18 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Web based PLC
Message-ID: <OF762B33F0.1CCD2C9A-ON642576A0.001BACF2-642576A0.001CAA3D@mail.megageek.com>

Ok, I'm looking for a little help here.   It might be a little off topic 
for Shop talk, but I know we have the expertise here to answer this.

 What I need is a web based logic board for dry contacts.  Let me 
explain...

In the new Mansion we are moving into, there is a water tank on the roof 
(5 stories up.)  The pump is in the ground.  Local wiring code in 
Afghanistan is nonexistence. 

I need a safe way for the two float switches in the tank (one for "low" 
and one for "full") to talk to the pump to turn it on.

I don't want to have a 220v line run from the pump, up the 5 stories to 
the roof of the building.  So I was thinking that I could put a network 
PLC device up near the tank  and another one near the pump.  I could log 
into the device via a web interface and program it to turn the pump on and 
off based on the position of the contacts in the float switch. 

This is simple in theory, and I'm sure there are devices out there.  My 
only problem is that I have a very slow internet connection here and 
surfing for this stuff is very frustrating and isn't yielding results.

So, anyone know where to get these devices? (I'm sure that I'll need two, 
one for the tank and one for the pump.)  Also, I'm not adverse to buying 
something and modify it to work the way I need it to if that is my only 
option.

Thanks for the help!

(As for cost, it's not too much of a factor, but if it gets too expensive, 
I have to get approval from the contract manager and I'd like to avoid 
that.)  Thanks again!

Oh yeah, the local answer to this problem is "have two people whose job is 
to keep it full.  One to stand on the roof and watch the tank and another 
one to turn on and off the pump." You have to love countries where labor 
is cheap.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Sun Jan  3 01:43:26 2010
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:43:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Web based PLC
References: <OF762B33F0.1CCD2C9A-ON642576A0.001BACF2-642576A0.001CAA3D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <E069297E21824D9F9452B117008E085D@stargate>

You may be able to modify an old Time Commander from JDS Technologies 
(jdstechnologies.com).  I don't think they manufacturer the Time Commander 
anymore, however, it is an X-10 based PLC and contains dry contacts that 
will perform an action based upon a contact closure (float switch).  In 
stock form it sends an X-10 signal to a module that initiates the action 
(start the pump).  I've used it to perform other actions when the doorbell 
button is pushed.  Although not web based, there is software from 
Homeseer.com that allows web based control.  Might check ebay and such for 
the actual unit.  I have an old Time Commander Plus around somewhere (it 
includes analog-digital inputs).  Even if you can't figure out web based 
control, it would at least not carry current if you have to hard wire it. 
You could probably pick one up fairly cheap.
Hope this helps.

Gordie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 12:08 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Web based PLC


> Ok, I'm looking for a little help here.   It might be a little off topic
> for Shop talk, but I know we have the expertise here to answer this.
>
> What I need is a web based logic board for dry contacts.  Let me
> explain...
>
> In the new Mansion we are moving into, there is a water tank on the roof
> (5 stories up.)  The pump is in the ground.  Local wiring code in
> Afghanistan is nonexistence.
>
> I need a safe way for the two float switches in the tank (one for "low"
> and one for "full") to talk to the pump to turn it on.
>
> I don't want to have a 220v line run from the pump, up the 5 stories to
> the roof of the building.  So I was thinking that I could put a network
> PLC device up near the tank  and another one near the pump.  I could log
> into the device via a web interface and program it to turn the pump on and
> off based on the position of the contacts in the float switch.
>
> This is simple in theory, and I'm sure there are devices out there.  My
> only problem is that I have a very slow internet connection here and
> surfing for this stuff is very frustrating and isn't yielding results.
>
> So, anyone know where to get these devices? (I'm sure that I'll need two,
> one for the tank and one for the pump.)  Also, I'm not adverse to buying
> something and modify it to work the way I need it to if that is my only
> option.
>
> Thanks for the help!
>
> (As for cost, it's not too much of a factor, but if it gets too expensive,
> I have to get approval from the contract manager and I'd like to avoid
> that.)  Thanks again!
>
> Oh yeah, the local answer to this problem is "have two people whose job is
> to keep it full.  One to stand on the roof and watch the tank and another
> one to turn on and off the pump." You have to love countries where labor
> is cheap.
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4738 (20100102) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sun Jan  3 06:22:34 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 08:22:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw:  Scotch-locks and T-Taps
Message-ID: <99DC847B72B04ECAAC7E4D8B1AFEF31C@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi All,

    Happy New Year!

    Randall makes a great and valid point about optimum conditions.  I just 
wanted to point out that we're all probably using tens if not hundreds of 
Insulation Displacement Connectors (IDC) to send our emails - all the ribbon 
connectors in our computers are IDC.  And that drives home Randall's point - 
ideal conditions.

    In another email Steve Trovato mentions the posi-lock products.  I poked 
around their website - they look really good - so good that I was 
suspicious.  Thanks to David C. for giving a group member endorsement - 
having at least mostly lurked in this list for years a member of this group 
saying good things means a whole lot more to me than most of the marketing
hype we see.

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' <-- long term resto project
1965 Ford Falcon <-- shorter term (I hope!) repair project
various other transportation pods

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> To: "'Shop Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
>
>
>>> If you use tapping connectors such as T-Taps (not to be confused with
>>> Scotch-locks), avoid using them in higher-current applications
>>> (constant 12V, ground, etc.)  These connectors are inferior in
>>> quality and should be avoided.
>>
>> Regardless of what you call them, IMO insulation-displacement connectors 
>> are
>> to be avoided in higher-current applications period.  They can work under
>> optimum conditions, but conditions are rarely optimum.  (Do you really 
>> know
>> exactly what size wire is inside that insulation?  It's important ...)
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> Randall

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jan  3 07:59:21 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 09:59:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Web based PLC
In-Reply-To: <OF762B33F0.1CCD2C9A-ON642576A0.001BACF2-642576A0.001CAA3D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF762B33F0.1CCD2C9A-ON642576A0.001BACF2-642576A0.001CAA3D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B40B0C9.3080806@xxiii.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I don't want to have a 220v line run from the pump, up the 5 stories to 
> the roof of the building.  So I was thinking that I could put a network 
> PLC device up near the tank  and another one near the pump.  I could log 
> into the device via a web interface and program it to turn the pump on and 
> off based on the position of the contacts in the float switch. 

Sounds like an awfully complex solution.  Is the network stuff already 
in place?  I could see doing it in a factory where the network is a 
given and you have a bunch of other ones to manage.

But couldn't you use some simple low voltage signaling to a plain old 
relay at the pump?

> one to turn on and off the pump." You have to love countries where labor 
> is cheap.

Yeah, right up to the point where they become a "problem" and/or reason 
to wage war.  Oh well, it's cold here.  Off to walmart for a new afghan.

-Wayne

From jhassall at blacksburg.net  Sun Jan  3 15:23:33 2010
From: jhassall at blacksburg.net (J.C. Hassall)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 17:23:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove fuel oil smell?
Message-ID: <4B4118E5.20205@blacksburg.net>

What's a good way to remove the smell of home heating oil which has been 
absorbed into soft furniture, etc?  We have a unit which had a minor 
fuel spill last summer, which wasn't completely cleaned up.  The 
residual vapors have permeated everywhere they can.  I've tried 
localized spraying with Fabreeze, Lysol spray, etc.  Those sprays work 
locally but aren't suitable for nuking the whole house.

TIA

-- 
Jim Hassall
Blacksburg VA
'63 TR4 in autox preparation
99% finished, 90% to go

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  3 16:32:41 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 17:32:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove fuel oil smell?
In-Reply-To: <4B4118E5.20205@blacksburg.net>
References: <4B4118E5.20205@blacksburg.net>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W55029D1B5A33EF9C61F4A2E1750@phx.gbl>

Jhassall said:

>The residual vapors have permeated everywhere they can.


If the "vapors" are strong enough, I light match might do it. %^)



I hope someone will give you some real help.  Have you contacted a cleaning
service?


Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Sun Jan  3 17:14:05 2010
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 16:14:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove fuel oil smell?
In-Reply-To: <4B4118E5.20205@blacksburg.net>
References: <4B4118E5.20205@blacksburg.net>
Message-ID: <432D2BCF78B94DB1AA6C79F9198141DC@DesktopPC>

Check with your insurance carrier......it may be covered?
Also, they'll know the local 'clean-up' people in your area.
They can remove smoke odor (and I assume other odors, also).
It's probably best left to the professional with the right
machinery and chemicals.  I speak from a little experience
since other divisions of my company make these types of
chemicals...........sorry I can't help<grin>
Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J.C. Hassall" <jhassall at blacksburg.net>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 2:23 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove fuel oil smell?


> What's a good way to remove the smell of home heating oil which has 
> been
> absorbed into soft furniture, etc?  We have a unit which had a minor
> fuel spill last summer, which wasn't completely cleaned up.  The
> residual vapors have permeated everywhere they can.  I've tried
> localized spraying with Fabreeze, Lysol spray, etc.  Those sprays 
> work
> locally but aren't suitable for nuking the whole house.
>
> TIA
>
> -- 
> Jim Hassall
> Blacksburg VA
> '63 TR4 in autox preparation
> 99% finished, 90% to go
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as gsteve at hammatt.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2598 - Release Date: 
01/03/10 09:41:00

From racertod at racertodd.com  Sun Jan  3 17:51:32 2010
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:51:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scotch-locks and T-Taps
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001022100230.22992@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <0KVL0075T2RWI3M0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>
	<0KVK00MOAXG5OYH0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2400a5d41001011125j6c706047vde3c31114a3c6c17@mail.gmail.com>
	<0KVL0075T2RWI3M0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100103163853.00bca3a8@mail.blarg.net>

         I've tried the blue T-taps in the past and don't like 
them.  They're tough to use in tight spaces, sometimes don't crimp down 
properly if your pliers aren't at the correct angle and seem to really cut 
into the wire strands.
         I used the Posi-lock taps when I retrofitted my Golf with traction 
control and electronic stability last year.  This required tapping into 
several wires of differing sizes most of which were under the dash in 
confined spaces.  The Posi-locks worked superbly even on some really small 
wires.  Easy to use when space is tight.  Removable with little damage to 
the wire.
         I installed and removed one on a scrap piece of wire - they 
basically have a needle that sticks into the wire pushing through the 
strands.  Didn't cut any strands.  You could remove one, seal the 
insulation with some RTV and it'd be good as new.
         I wouldn't use any sort of tap on a high current situation, but I 
won't use the old blue T-taps again.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       227,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sun Jan  3 19:08:27 2010
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 02:08:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove fuel oil smell?
In-Reply-To: <4B4118E5.20205@blacksburg.net>
Message-ID: <490349186.7865161262570907023.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I would think an activated charcoal filter would adsorb fuel oil vapours very effectively.  May have to let it work for a while, but a few kilos should clean the whole house in short order.  If you can place thin layers close to the most affected areas, it should work wonders.

HTH,
Donald.
----- Original Message -----
From: "J.C. Hassall" <jhassall at blacksburg.net>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2010 5:23:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove fuel oil smell?

What's a good way to remove the smell of home heating oil which has been 
absorbed into soft furniture, etc?  We have a unit which had a minor 
fuel spill last summer, which wasn't completely cleaned up.  The 
residual vapors have permeated everywhere they can.  I've tried 
localized spraying with Fabreeze, Lysol spray, etc.  Those sprays work 
locally but aren't suitable for nuking the whole house.

TIA

-- 
Jim Hassall
Blacksburg VA
'63 TR4 in autox preparation
99% finished, 90% to go

From nogera2 at att.net  Mon Jan  4 07:05:15 2010
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 08:05:15 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
Message-ID: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>

There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener while
doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
reusable pop rivet.

Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be available?



Thanks in advance


Bob Nogueira

From racertod at racertodd.com  Mon Jan  4 07:59:50 2010
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:59:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100104065614.00bc9e50@mail.blarg.net>

Bob wrote:

>There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
>panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener while
>doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
>reusable pop rivet.
>
>Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be available?

         Are you thinking of a cleco clamp?
         Pegasus sells them 
(http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=CLECOS) as well as many 
aircraft supply places.
         Just Google "cleco clamp" and you'll get a bunch of hits.

Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       227,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com  Mon Jan  4 08:02:16 2010
From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 09:02:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201E3109F@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>

I believe you are referring to Cleco fasteners.

Gil Fuqua
Nashville

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of nogera2 at att.net
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:05 AM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called

There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener
while
doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
reusable pop rivet.

Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be
available?



Thanks in advance


Bob Nogueira
You are subscribed as gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan  4 08:05:13 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 07:05:13 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <E2.12.07989.9A3024B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
> reusable pop rivet.

Sounds like a Cleco.  Eg,
http://tinyurl.com/yd8n6y6

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Mon Jan  4 08:15:10 2010
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 07:15:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
Message-ID: <201001041515.o04FFAZn011203@moose.dimebank.com>

> Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be available?

I think you are talking about a "Cleco" - Pegasus Racing and Aircraft
Spruce are likely suppliers.

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jan  4 08:15:55 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 10:15:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <0KVQ0013XAEGHWF0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

They are called clecos.  They are available at Eastwood, and many 
other places as 
well.  http://www.eastwood.com/blind-grip-holders-1-8-pack-of-30.html

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 09:05 AM 1/4/2010, nogera2 at att.net wrote:
>There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
>panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener while
>doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
>reusable pop rivet.
>
>Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be available?
>
>
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>
>Bob Nogueira
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 08:18:11 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 09:18:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <ea2385361001040718v2cd4d658wd9b4f3f011eb2cfa@mail.gmail.com>

*They are "Clecos" and Aircraft Spruce is a good supplier . . or any
aircraft tool supplier.*

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:05 AM, <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:

> There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
> panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener
> while
> doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
> reusable pop rivet.
>
> Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be
> available?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> Bob Nogueira
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 08:19:50 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:19:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001040719t39767a2fw9129e7726b8a29c7@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:05 AM, <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:

> There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
> panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener
> while
> doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
> reusable pop rivet.
>
> Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be
> available?
>
>
> They're called "Clekos".  That's a brand name, there are others now.
Don't have a source, sorry.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Mon Jan  4 08:24:36 2010
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:24:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <A84E62BE-7C07-4073-AF28-CCA09ECD2A99@te-motorworks.com>

Bob,

I think you are describing a Cleco fastener/clamp.

A number of sheet metal tooling vendors, including Aircraft Spruce whom I
happen to like, carry them.  Do these look like what you're picturing?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/clecosheetholder.php

-vin


On Jan 4, 2010, at 9:05 AM, <nogera2 at att.net> <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:

> There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
> panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener
while
> doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
> reusable pop rivet.
>
> Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be
available?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> Bob Nogueira
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jan  4 08:27:05 2010
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 09:27:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <5C45C2EBCF954161ABF6037570253DD6@your72486d6880>

cleco fittings
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <nogera2 at att.net>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:05 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called


> There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
> panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener 
> while
> doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
> reusable pop rivet.
>
> Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be 
> available?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> Bob Nogueira
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2598 - Release Date: 01/03/10 
09:41:00

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Jan  4 08:46:13 2010
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:46:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <1FEF450C01E14150A10345357CD39C69@Digilink1>

Clico.....
try Aircraft Spruce.....

don't forget to buy the special Clico pliers.....you need the Clicos in the
proper size for your holes/rivets.....

If you are anywhere near Wichita, Kansas go to "The Yard" where you can buy
them cheap from surplus from the aircraft factories....

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of nogera2 at att.net
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:05 AM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called

There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener while
doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
reusable pop rivet.

Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be available?



Thanks in advance


Bob Nogueira
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From lspector at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 08:48:10 2010
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:48:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <167503c11001040748w7f101928lb6acad79b59e22e7@mail.gmail.com>

Do you mean Cleco fasteners? They should be available from any of the
aircraft supply houses. If you google "cleco plier" you'll get a bunch
of hits.

-Larry



On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:05 AM,  <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:
> There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
> panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener
while
> doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
> reusable pop rivet.
>
> Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be
available?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> Bob Nogueira

From sdillen at telus.net  Mon Jan  4 08:53:16 2010
From: sdillen at telus.net (Steve Dillen)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:53:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
References: <0FB720AF36F64573AC2196709FA0D680@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <4B420EEC.60802@telus.net>

Are you talking about "Nutserts"? 

http://www.avdel-global.com/en/products/threaded-inserts/thin-sheet-nutsert.html

They have these at Princess Auto here in BC.  I'm sure any Harbor
Freight/well stocked hardware/auto parts store would have them available.

Steve Dillen
Maple Ridge, BC

nogera2 at att.net wrote:
> There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work that holds a
> panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary fastener while
> doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw hole and it acts like a
> reusable pop rivet.
>
> Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be available?

From nogera2 at att.net  Mon Jan  4 11:22:56 2010
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:22:56 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100104065614.00bc9e50@mail.blarg.net>
Message-ID: <DCE819F773484B78A1FA23400A21B042@CARROOM>

I usually send a personal thank you note for help given but I got so many
responses so quickly that I decided to use the list. I swear everyone on the
list responded.  Must be the fun of saying 'Cleco Clamp" :). I wonder what
ever happened to Cleco Club Soda ( different spelling)?

But thanks to everyone who responded. It's the greatest list on the
internet!

Bob Nogueira



> Bob wrote:
>
> >There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work
> that holds
> >a panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary
> >fastener while doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw
> hole and
> >it acts like a reusable pop rivet.
> >
> >Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be
> >available?

From mdporter at dfn.com  Mon Jan  4 12:09:41 2010
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 12:09:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <DCE819F773484B78A1FA23400A21B042@CARROOM>
References: <DCE819F773484B78A1FA23400A21B042@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <4B423CF5.7080700@dfn.com>

nogera2 at att.net wrote:
> I usually send a personal thank you note for help given but I got so many
> responses so quickly that I decided to use the list. I swear everyone on the
> list responded.  Must be the fun of saying 'Cleco Clamp" :). I wonder what
> ever happened to Cleco Club Soda ( different spelling)?
>
>   

Umm, yeah, that would be "Clicquot Club" soda.


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Jan  4 12:11:22 2010
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:11:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is it called
In-Reply-To: <DCE819F773484B78A1FA23400A21B042@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <558CB1DDDD904E68A4E71128258D7AFF@Digilink1>

Cleco Club Soda?......you are showing your age!.....I can't remember that
being around since the 50's.......

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of nogera2 at att.net
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:23 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] What is it called

I usually send a personal thank you note for help given but I got so many
responses so quickly that I decided to use the list. I swear everyone on the
list responded.  Must be the fun of saying 'Cleco Clamp" :). I wonder what
ever happened to Cleco Club Soda ( different spelling)?

But thanks to everyone who responded. It's the greatest list on the
internet!

Bob Nogueira



> Bob wrote:
>
> >There is a little device I've seem used in sheet metal work
> that holds
> >a panel in place via the screw holes. It is used as a temporary
> >fastener while doing the fitting.  You place it in the screw
> hole and
> >it acts like a reusable pop rivet.
> >
> >Can anyone tell me the name of the device and where they might be
> >available?
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan  4 15:37:11 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:37:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
Message-ID: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>

I'm helping a friend fix a BMW starter. The starter gear slides along  
a shaft and is stopped by a collar held in by a retaining ring. The  
ring is a round section type like these:

http://www.rotorclip.com/cat_pdfs/rhc.pdf

and it simultaneously fits in a groove in the shaft, and in a groove  
in the collar. Here's the fiche from the bike, and "Starter Single  
Parts" will open the diagram:

http://www.maxbmw.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?model=R1100S&prod=011997-092004

I'm looking for a tool(s) that would assist in compressing the ring to  
allow the collar to slide off/on it, and also expand the ring to ease  
removal from the shaft. There's already been one screwdriver-under-the- 
fingernail episode...

thanks,
jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan  4 16:59:38 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:59:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
In-Reply-To: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>
References: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <097CB6F9334A41F1AE4476E42D61A992@jdnet.deere.com>

Tough to say for sure, Jim, but that looks similar to the retaining ring
used on my Triumph starters.  If it is, then the collar cannot slide over
the ring.  Instead, you have to push the collar back from the ring, and pry
the ring out of it's groove first.  Once it's out of the groove, the collar
can be used to force it along the shaft.

I have never found a tool that helps, other than a couple of cheap
(sacrificial) jeweler's screwdrivers that are thin enough to work in between
the ring and the groove on the shaft.  I clamp the armature firmly in the
vise (using smooth, relatively soft metal jaws to avoid scars), then use my
left hand to both push the collar back and position a screwdriver so I can
tap it with a brass hammer and drive it between the ring & shaft groove.
Then pry the ring out, working around the shaft.  Not an easy process.

-- Randall  

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Jan  4 17:24:53 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 19:24:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
In-Reply-To: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>
References: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <162E8181E155496B9603197F88660A69@EricJRussellPC>

Scroll down about 3/4's of the way down the page:
http://www.crawfordtool.com/knipex_retaining_ring_pliers.html 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Franklin" 

Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan  4 18:16:50 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 20:16:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
In-Reply-To: <097CB6F9334A41F1AE4476E42D61A992@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>
	<097CB6F9334A41F1AE4476E42D61A992@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <8C11ECD1-94F9-4C65-96CC-0B23FE461659@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Randall wrote:

> Tough to say for sure, Jim, but that looks similar to the retaining  
> ring
> used on my Triumph starters.  If it is, then the collar cannot slide  
> over
> the ring.  Instead, you have to push the collar back from the ring,  
> and pry
> the ring out of it's groove first.  Once it's out of the groove, the  
> collar
> can be used to force it along the shaft.

Exactly. Except the collar can't be reinstalled over the ring without  
compressing the ring a bit, since the ring expands into the collar  
once positioned. It's likely the collar itself could compress the ring  
as it slides into position, but there's no way to yank it hard enough.  
The correct way is to use a gear puller to provide tension while  
massaging the circlip, but mine are buried in a storage unit for a few  
weeks.

>
> Then pry the ring out, working around the shaft.  Not an easy process.

It's a bloody pain. Literally :-)

However,

On Jan 4, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Eric J Russell wrote:

> Scroll down about 3/4's of the way down the page:
> http://www.crawfordtool.com/knipex_retaining_ring_pliers.html

These will work. Thanks!

jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan  4 19:48:35 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 18:48:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
In-Reply-To: <8C11ECD1-94F9-4C65-96CC-0B23FE461659@groupwbench.org>
References: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org><097CB6F9334A41F1AE4476E42D61A992@jdnet.deere.com>
	<8C11ECD1-94F9-4C65-96CC-0B23FE461659@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <5174F305FC774627BE1875EFFB23F31F@jdnet.deere.com>

> Except the collar can't be reinstalled over the ring 
> without compressing the ring a bit, since the ring expands 
> into the collar once positioned. 

In my case, I used ordinary 'gas' pliers to compress the ring, while forcing
the collar back over it (and sliding the pliers off).

> These will work. Thanks!

Glad to hear it!  I tried something similar, but it didn't work any better
than the screwdriver method for me.  Had to pry on the ring to get enough
end gap to slip the tool in (note that it's over 1/8" thick when closed),
and then it would usually slip back off when I tried to spread it.

-- Randall  

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jan  4 20:14:19 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 19:14:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
In-Reply-To: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <683219.90329.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

$2900 for a short block without cylinders or pistons?
Yow!

Doug

--- On Mon,
1/4/10, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

> From: Jim Franklin
<jamesf at groupwbench.org>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
> To:
"Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 5:37
PM
> I'm helping a friend fix a BMW
> starter. The starter gear slides along a
shaft and is
> stopped by a collar held in by a retaining ring. The ring is
>
a round section type like these:
> 
>
http://www.rotorclip.com/cat_pdfs/rhc.pdf
> 
> and it simultaneously fits in a
groove in the shaft, and in
> a groove in the collar. Here's the fiche from
the bike, and
> "Starter Single Parts" will open the diagram:
> 
>
http://www.maxbmw.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?model=R1100Sb=011997-092004

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 20:33:42 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 22:33:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
In-Reply-To: <8C11ECD1-94F9-4C65-96CC-0B23FE461659@groupwbench.org>
References: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org>
	<097CB6F9334A41F1AE4476E42D61A992@jdnet.deere.com>
	<8C11ECD1-94F9-4C65-96CC-0B23FE461659@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001041933x2762a6f0lc08f1cbae8a600b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

> On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Randall wrote:
>
>
>
>> Then pry the ring out, working around the shaft.  Not an easy process.
>>
>
> It's a bloody pain. Literally :-)
>
> However,
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Eric J Russell wrote:
>
>  Scroll down about 3/4's of the way down the page:
>> http://www.crawfordtool.com/knipex_retaining_ring_pliers.html
>>
>
> These will work. Thanks!
>

Sears used to sell something like that (I've got a pair), but in their
continuing quest to sell only shit, they don't any more.  But you ought to
be able to find such pliers at any good tool dealer.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From hypercubic at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  5 03:31:27 2010
From: hypercubic at yahoo.co.uk (mike brooks)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:31:27 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re Web Based PLC
Message-ID: <365635.68840.qm@web24004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

http://www.anadexlabs.com.au/shop/catalog/Tank-level-indicators-orderby0-p-1-
c-264.html

Not sure if this helps, but I would install wireless switches in
the tank, either battery or solar powered, with a wireless receiver close to
the pump. The dry contacts for the pump on/off control would then be provided
as outputs from the receiver. Doing it this way removes the need to keep a PC
network running, and your existing pump control box can be retained. And it
minimises the equipment several floors up. There are many companies world wide
that can provide this kind of stuff - the above link is typical.

Mike Brooks
Doha, Qatar

....Ok, I'm looking for a little help here.  It might be a little
off topic 
for Shop talk, but I know we have the expertise here to answer
this.

What I need is a web based logic board for dry contacts.  Let me
explain...

In the new Mansion we are moving into, there is a water tank on
the roof 
(5 stories up.)  The pump is in the ground.  Local wiring code in
Afghanistan is nonexistence. ............

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan  5 08:54:06 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:54:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

So we're considering moving closer to my wife's work, now that I'm working 
out of the house.  One of the houses we've seen listed has a 6000 ft^2 
block building. I've only seen one picture of the outside, so I don't know 
much about it.

My first reaction was "sounds good!" but then I started thinking about it 
a little and realized I have no idea what maintenance costs and utility 
costs would be for a building like that... Anyone have any idea or rules 
of thumb?

For instance, if I kept most of it at 40 deg (and partitioned off / 
insulated a two car workshop area), what range for cost would we be 
talking about?  I expect its gas heat, but don't know for sure.

Similarly, what sorta maintenance costs for things like roofs (I'm 
guessing its some type of flat roof, but again haven't seen the building 
yet) or whatever?

I thought you folks might have some idea, even if its just a "You're 
talking $400/month and up for that square footage for utilities / 
maintenance" type of thing.

Thanks!

Mark

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan  5 08:56:37 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 09:56:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Retaining ring pliers?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001041933x2762a6f0lc08f1cbae8a600b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A08BF26C-2013-438E-ABAF-8892B0A7CC0B@groupwbench.org><097CB6F9334A41F1AE4476E42D61A992@jdnet.deere.com><8C11ECD1-94F9-4C65-96CC-0B23FE461659@groupwbench.org>
	<2400a5d41001041933x2762a6f0lc08f1cbae8a600b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F590@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

David Scheidt wrote:
>
>Sears used to sell something like that (I've got a pair),

They still do (go online at www.sears.com and search for "lock ring
pliers".

They seem to call snap ring pliers the same thing (they are not), but if
you scroll down you will find some SK branded Lock Ring pliers for
$26...

(I have two of the Craftsman branded ones...)
When used right, they don't slip (it was mentioned that something
"similar" was used).  The knurling on the ends of the pliers tend to
hold onto the lock ring when you expand it.  I've taken apart several
transmissions (and put them back together), and lock ring pliers are the
only tool that will work with lock rings.


Tim Mullen

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan  5 10:07:10 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:07:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100105115122.01f807d0@cox.net>

At 10:54 AM 1/5/2010, Mark Andy wrote:

 >One of the houses we've seen listed has a 6000 ft^2 block building. 
I've only
 >seen one picture of the outside, so I don't know much about it.
 >
 >My first reaction was "sounds good!" but then I started thinking 
about it a little >and realized I have no idea what maintenance costs 
and utility costs would be >for a building like that... Anyone have 
any idea or rules of thumb?

Mark,

For starters, contact the relator, they should be able to give you 
copies of the
utility bills.

Next, it would depened on where you live.  In the Frozen North, you winter
heating bills will be high than if it's a southern house.  You don't say where
you are.

Most of your current bills should stay the same, unless you are moving out of
the city you currently like in.  So thinks like Your water / sewage 
bill should not
change, same for your phone, a cable TV.

The only bills that should change are things like heating and 
cooling.  How big is
your current house?  What is the delta in size?  If the new house is 
larger than
it will most likely cost more to heat and cool the new house.

What type of heat do you currently have?  What about the new 
house?  Does it have, Oil, gas, electric for heating.  If you are 
going from gas to oil, I'd expect
your bill to go up.

Next what about the difference in value of the 2 homes.  Your relastate taxes
will go up.

Where the new house is located, what about the local income and sales taxes?

As to household maintenance, the only things you should have to worry about
there is the cost of roofing.  You should be able to call a local 
roofer and get
a rough idea as to the cost of a new roof.

What is the outside of your existing house, and the new house.  If 
the new house
is wood, then you painting/staining.  If it's sided, you can get a 
rough cost to
reside it.

How big are the respective yards?  Do you do the yard work or have it done?
An increase in yard size, would probably cause an increase in lawn maintenance.
Of you may need a riding lawn mower - $1K to $2K.

Do either house have city water and sewage or is one of them using a well, and
or septic tank?  Again associated costs.

My house, here in Virginia Beach, VA is all electric with a heat pump 
for heating
and cooling, with an electric hot water heater, clothes dryer, and stove.  My
monthly electric bill is $217 every month (I'm on the budget 
plan).  In addition
I have gas logs in the family room to help warm it in the winter.  So 
I'm paying
a about $200/yr for propane gas.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan  5 10:41:01 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:41:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
>
> has a 6000 ft^2 block building. <...>
> realized I have no idea what maintenance costs and utility
>costs would be for a building like that...

For a building that big (picture my mouth watering here), maybe you
could rent out space for people to park their RVs (if it's tall enough),
boats, etc. to store them in part of the building, while you have a huge
shop in the rest.  Then the cost wouldn't matter (you might even make a
profit)...  :)

Tim Mullen

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan  5 12:20:33 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:20:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100105115122.01f807d0@cox.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100105115122.01f807d0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051418570.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
> Next, it would depened on where you live.  In the Frozen North, you 
> winter heating bills will be high than if it's a southern house.  You 
> don't say where you are.

Whoops.  I forgot some details.

First, this is between Youngstown and Cleveland, Ohio.  So full seasons.

Second, the 6k ft^2 block building is the garage... There's also a house, 
but I'm familier with house costs.

Thanks!

Mark

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan  5 12:23:32 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:23:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:
>> has a 6000 ft^2 block building. <...>
>> realized I have no idea what maintenance costs and utility
>> costs would be for a building like that...
>
> For a building that big (picture my mouth watering here), maybe you
> could rent out space for people to park their RVs (if it's tall enough),
> boats, etc. to store them in part of the building, while you have a huge
> shop in the rest.  Then the cost wouldn't matter (you might even make a
> profit)...  :)

Yeah, that would be a possible option, though I dunno about insurance / 
liability / whatever.  Plus I have my own motorhome and enclosed trailer 
that if the building can hold those would probably be in there.  :-)

I just don't have any idea as to a 'monthly budget amount' for running / 
maintaining a block building that size here in Ohio.  If its a couple 
hundred a month... Great!  But if its $500+/month, then the extra space is 
starting to be a downside and not an upside.

Mark

From ericm at lne.com  Tue Jan  5 13:59:53 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:59:53 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20100105205953.GA3960@slack.lne.com>

On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 02:23:32PM -0500, Mark Andy wrote:
> 
> I just don't have any idea as to a 'monthly budget amount' for running / 
> maintaining a block building that size here in Ohio.  If its a couple 
> hundred a month... Great!  But if its $500+/month, then the extra space is 
> starting to be a downside and not an upside.

You could always partition it, insulate the workshop area and 
leave the storage section unheated.

Eric

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan  5 14:07:46 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:07:46 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051418570.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net><6.2.5.6.1.20100105115122.01f807d0@cox.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051418570.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <67BC07106D5C4A1AB3BC35282AD55005@jdnet.deere.com>

> Second, the 6k ft^2 block building is the garage... There's 
> also a house, but I'm familier with house costs.

So, how often/long do you need to heat your 'garage'?  And as I think
someone already suggested, why heat all of it?  Running even a big infrared
space heater shouldn't cost more than a few $$/hour, and should be able to
create a fair sized work zone without heating the entire building.

Back when I lived slightly west of you, I used a "salamander" (aka "smudge
pot") to work in the garage in the wintertime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smudge_pot
As I recall, it would run maybe 24 hours on 5 gallons of heating oil (3 days
of working 8 hours/day; I never left it unattended).  Bit scary with all
that loose flame about; but the only problem I ever had was melting a turn
signal on my Audi while working underneath the car.

-- Randall  

From mark at bradakis.com  Tue Jan  5 14:27:04 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:27:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4B43AEA8.7080800@bradakis.com>

You could partition the building, have just a small portion that
is heated and cooled, seperate electrical circuits.  No sense in
spending a lot of money keeping storage space adequately
comfortable, turning on ALL the lights all the time.

mjb.

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan  5 15:49:30 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 17:49:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <20100105205953.GA3960@slack.lne.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20100105205953.GA3960@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051748350.28400@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, Eric Murray wrote:
>> I just don't have any idea as to a 'monthly budget amount' for running /
>> maintaining a block building that size here in Ohio.  If its a couple
>> hundred a month... Great!  But if its $500+/month, then the extra space is
>> starting to be a downside and not an upside.
>
> You could always partition it, insulate the workshop area and
> leave the storage section unheated.

Possibly.  I'd partition it anyway, just so I could heat up the 'working' 
area a little higher.  But I'd like to keep the storage area above 
freezing (which means no need to winterize the motorhome, easier starting 
for the tractor, etc.)

Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jan  5 16:12:53 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:12:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001051759040.89690@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, Mark Andy wrote:
> Yeah, that would be a possible option, though I dunno about insurance / 
> liability / whatever.  Plus I have my own motorhome and enclosed trailer that 
> if the building can hold those would probably be in there.  :-)
>
> I just don't have any idea as to a 'monthly budget amount' for running / 
> maintaining a block building that size here in Ohio.  If its a couple hundred 
> a month... Great!  But if its $500+/month, then the extra space is starting 
> to be a downside and not an upside.

    I think you are over-thinking this 'problem'.  There's no way this is 
going to come out negative versus, for example, paying to store your RV. 
We're not talking about very much heat here... average temperature for 
Youngstown, Ohio is only substantially below 40* for 3 months ( 30, 24, 
and 26 for December through February, 38 for March ).  Keeping it at 
normal house temperature would, I'm sure, be really expensive, but 40*F 
should not be.

    If you have some sort of insulated workspace, as suggested, it should 
stay pretty close to that even without heat.  My semi-insulated 2-car 
attached garage near Chicago ( only a few degrees colder on average, 
despite its chilly reputation ) doesn't go much below 30* even when I'm 
not using it to park (warm) cars.

    My twopence.

--
  David Hillman

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jan  5 17:00:29 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 19:00:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051748350.28400@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20100105205953.GA3960@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051748350.28400@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <0KVS00IC7TFKY8A0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Lots of good advice so far, except I hate unvented heaters.  I really 
don't want to be breathing in what they put out.  As for keeping it 
above freezing, I agree.  Not winterizing the motor home makes me 
nervous, though.  Around here, you never know when there's going to 
be an ice storm or something that leaves power out for days.  I guess 
you have to balance the likelihood of such a thing against the amount 
of damage that would be caused.  I suppose if you're sure you'll be 
around, you could always do an "emergency winterization" if you keep 
some RV antifreeze around.  Or maybe you'd just fire it up and live in it!

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 05:49 PM 1/5/2010, Mark Andy wrote:
>But I'd like to keep the storage area above freezing (which means no 
>need to winterize the motorhome, easier starting for the tractor, etc.)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan  5 18:17:19 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 17:17:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
In-Reply-To: <0KVS00IC7TFKY8A0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net><20100105205953.GA3960@slack.lne.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051748350.28400@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<0KVS00IC7TFKY8A0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <FB710771C5144A95BFE55B784E15329D@jdnet.deere.com>

> Around here, you never 
> know when there's going to be an ice storm or something that 
> leaves power out for days. 

Dunno if they are still around, but there at least used to be several
options for vented heaters that did not require AC power for operation.

The fuel oil version used gravity feed from the storage tank to a 'pot
burner', and relied on convection to move the air around.  Not the most
efficient thing, but effective.

-- Randall  

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jan  5 20:08:27 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 21:08:27 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Running a building costs, 6k ft^2 block garage
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051052210.17434@thunder.banklogic.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703C0F624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051421250.22785@thunder.banklogic.net><20100105205953.GA3960@slack.lne.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1001051748350.28400@thunder.banklogic.net><0KVS00IC7TFKY8A0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<FB710771C5144A95BFE55B784E15329D@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <E971B4199BEE4F079555C469494D270A@KARL>

Regular basic vented natural gas or propane heaters wall require no 
electricity.  I have one in the garage, and though it's old, it brings in 
combustion air from outside so paint and gas fumes aren't quite as much of a 
worry.  As Randall points out, it's straight convection, but if you had a 
couple of them at opposite ends, it should be enough to keep the frost out.

As far as an unvented heater, remember that water is still a huge component 
of the combustion products, and even if it's relatively clean-burning, it'll 
still put lots of moisture into the building.  Even if the building isn't 
all that tight, humidity is still going to build up and that's not a good 
thing for your vehicles and tools, not to mention the structure.

Karl


>> Around here, you never
>> know when there's going to be an ice storm or something that
>> leaves power out for days.
>
> Dunno if they are still around, but there at least used to be several
> options for vented heaters that did not require AC power for operation.
>
> The fuel oil version used gravity feed from the storage tank to a 'pot
> burner', and relied on convection to move the air around.  Not the most
> efficient thing, but effective.
>
> -- Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jan  6 07:36:42 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:36:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice on insulating a garage
Message-ID: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>

The current deep freeze has me again thinking about insulating my 3 car
garage.  Not doing this when it was first built was a big mistake, but that
isn't what is keeping me from doing it now.  I'm not sure how to tackle the
ceiling.  I have two
problems.  First, there is the fact that it is a multi-level ceiling.  It is
the largest possible garage our town would allow us to put on our lot and is
basically in two sections.  There is a fairly normal two-car section with 9
foot walls and a 'normal' roof line.  Then there is a one-car bay that is
fairly long to create a work area.  This section has a cathedral ceiling that
was designed to allow for a lift to be put in and turn it into a 4-car.  I
haven't gotten around to installing that lift yet, but still intend to.

The
cathedral bay over the one car section will be a royal PITA to insulate.  I
think the ceiling is 18 feet tall at the summit.  But, that is
easily solved.  The bigger problem is what to
do about the main area.  I didn't think to specify heavy duty joists and what
we got are the typical pre-made ones in use today that are not designed to
hold much weight.  Still, I have put a fair amount of stuff up there over the
years.  Nothing too heavy and much of it stuff like bumpers that spans
multiple joists.  I do have some boxes of parts stored near the walls on both
sides, and have strengthened the joists at these points with 2x4 supports to
the wall studs.  I am trying to figure out how to maintain access to this
stuff (I don't need it all the time, but can't live without it) while still
insulating the area. Flooring it and turning it into a walkable storage area
is probably (but not
definitely) out of the question.   I suppose I could insulate the roof here
too, but wouldn't that dramatically increase the heating load?  I am not
planning on warming it to a living temperature and was just thinking that a
couple off space heaters would make it comfortable enough in all but the
coldest weather.  I also have a very large room air conditioner left over from
before we installed central air in the house, and would love the prospect of
being able to cool it down a bit in the summer.

Does anyone here have any ideas?  Would flooring it be out of the question?  I
know that would add a lot of weight, but I also assme it would increase the
structural rigidity, so maybe it would be a wash?  As always, thanks.

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Jan  6 08:49:48 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:49:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice on insulating a garage
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001061044170.17681@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, Jim Stone wrote:
> The bigger problem is what to do about the main area.  I didn't think to 
> specify heavy duty joists and what we got are the typical pre-made ones 
> in use today that are not designed to hold much weight.  Still, I have 
> put a fair amount of stuff up there over the years.  Nothing too heavy 
> and much of it stuff like bumpers that spans multiple joists.  I do have 
> some boxes of parts stored near the walls on both sides, and have 
> strengthened the joists at these points with 2x4 supports to the wall 
> studs.  I am trying to figure out how to maintain access to this stuff 
> (I don't need it all the time, but can't live without it) while still 
> insulating the area. Flooring it and turning it into a walkable storage 
> area is probably (but not definitely) out of the question.  I suppose I 
> could insulate the roof here too, but wouldn't that dramatically 
> increase the heating load?  I am not planning on warming it to a living 
> temperature and was just thinking that a couple off space heaters would 
> make it comfortable enough in all but the coldest weather.  I also have 
> a very large room air conditioner left over from before we installed 
> central air in the house, and would love the prospect of being able to 
> cool it down a bit in the summer.
>
> Does anyone here have any ideas?  Would flooring it be out of the 
> question?  I know that would add a lot of weight, but I also assme it 
> would increase the structural rigidity, so maybe it would be a wash? 
> As always, thanks.

We faced a similar problem with the ceiling over our kitchen area.  It was 
floored for attic storage, and that meant we couldn't put in as much 
insulation as we wanted.

In the end, we decided we wanted the insulation more than the storage, and 
relocated the crap.  Probably half of it didn't pass the "honestly, are 
you going to ever use this again and if so will it be expensive enough / 
new enough that you wouldn't rather just buy a new one?" filter.

I'd look into alternate storage first.  Perhaps a shed?

If not, if your trusses are the typical ones where its a bunch of trianges 
& no particular normal walking floor area, how about building a raised 
walkway, with hooks / shelving built into the trusses, leaving the 'floor' 
clear for insulation?  You're still going to add weight, but it wouldn't 
be as much as a full floor (though of course you get less storage space 
too), so that part would be better.  I would expect the extra weight to 
not really help the structural integrity at all, but then I'm no truss 
designer.

Just some thoughts from another non-expert.

Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jan  6 09:46:30 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:46:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <527703.13726.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

In my house, a previous owner finished the basement, and the interior walls were done with sheet metal studs (a stupid idea, in my opinion).  On the unfinished side of the walls there is a lot of loose NM wiring for the outlets and light switches which is not properly attached to anything.  So, what is the official, correct way to attach wiring to metal studs?  (Of course, if the studs were wood, I would simply use staples.)  For wire runs that have to pass horizontally, I have already installed plastic grommets in the holes in the studs, but what about the vertical runs?

Thanks,

Doug

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Jan  6 10:30:25 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:30:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice on insulating a garage
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001061216040.53690@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, Jim Stone wrote:
> The current deep freeze has me again thinking about insulating my 3 car
> garage.  Not doing this when it was first built was a big mistake, but that
> isn't what is keeping me from doing it now.
>
> Does anyone here have any ideas?  Would flooring it be out of the question?  I
> know that would add a lot of weight, but I also assme it would increase the
> structural rigidity, so maybe it would be a wash?  As always, thanks.

    I insulated my 2.5-car attached garage with 1" thick rigid foam boards 
and it was the best thing I ever did.  I'm pissed that I didn't do right 
after I bought the house, and suffered through some seriously-cold nights 
working out there.

    They weigh next to nothing, so 1 person can do the job alone.  I did my 
whole garage's peaked ceiling in a weekend.  Drywall screws and fender 
washers hold them up, and I used aluminum tape on the seams.  My 
father-in-law did the same on his garage down the street, and they use it 
as living space with a wall-mount natural gas heater.

    With no HVAC in my garage, it stays much warmer/cooler than outside, 
even though the overhead door is 40 years old and doesn't seal well at 
all.  It used to get down to or below zero, but stays at 30 now.  It also 
used to be stupidifyingly-hot in the summer, but now it doesn't break 80.

--
  David Hillman

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Jan  6 10:45:49 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:45:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice on insulating a garage
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A0734630-3359-46AF-B255-ED155F21FA7E@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 6, 2010, at 9:36 AM, Jim Stone wrote:
>  There is a fairly normal two-car section with 9
> foot walls and a 'normal' roof line.

If this has exposed rafters then I would insulate the building  
envelope, and not worry about the extra heating load. Sure it will  
take longer to heat as the peak will get all the hot air first, but I  
would appreciate the heated storage area. How would you keep the heat  
from getting into that storage area if you insulated the ceiling?

It's also possible that you'll do a better job insulating all the  
exterior walls than trying to insulate specific rooms.

Also, adding rafter ventilation via foam channels, and using ridge &  
soffit vents will keep the place cooler in summer and make your roof  
last longer.

Some 4" ductwork and an inline fan can circulae hot air from the peak  
down to the floor level if you like.

jim

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jan  6 13:55:59 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:55:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <527703.13726.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>,
	<527703.13726.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W35FBAD6DC1B7C925367292CC720@phx.gbl>

Finally!  A question I can answer.  I did my basement that way (I hope you
aren't the current owner of my old house) and bought a pack of stick-on
anchors that were made for this purpose.  They were about an inch square and
had an opening in the center where a small nylon cable tie could be looped
through it and the bundle of wire.  They were easy to use and readily
available at the big box stores.  They stuck to the studs very well, but we
moved about a year after I finished the basement, so I can't say how long they
stayed attached.



Sorry if that description isn't very clear.  I think I have a few left if you
would like a photo of one and could also drop one in the mail if you wanted a
sample.


As for metal studs, I found them to be great.  Very easy to put up, straight
(unlike most wood 2x4's these days) and very sound structurally, once the
drywall is in place.  Being able to stick a magnetic level on them was a real
plus, as I was working alone.  Plumbing and wiring was a breeze, thanks to the
cutouts.  You do need drywall on both sides for structural rigidity, which
sounds like something your PO didn't do.


> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:46:30 -0800
> From: doug at dougbraun.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
>
> Hello,
>
> In my house, a previous owner finished the basement, and the interior walls
were done with sheet metal studs (a stupid idea, in my opinion). On the
unfinished side of the walls there is a lot of loose NM wiring for the outlets
and light switches which is not properly attached to anything. So, what is the
official, correct way to attach wiring to metal studs? (Of course, if the
studs were wood, I would simply use staples.) For wire runs that have to pass
horizontally, I have already installed plastic grommets in the holes in the
studs, but what about the vertical runs?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jan  6 15:17:04 2010
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:17:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W35FBAD6DC1B7C925367292CC720@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>,
	<527703.13726.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL115-W35FBAD6DC1B7C925367292CC720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <820679.55634.qm@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Something like this at Lowes.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=292685-1781-45-
1MBUVL&lpage=none
Gardner Bender
10-Piece 1" X 1" Black Mounting Pads
Item #:
292685       Model: 45-1MBUVL

Randy




________________________________
From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
To: doug at dougbraun.com;
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 2:55:59 PM
Subject: Re:
[Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?

Finally!  A question I can
answer.  I did my basement that way (I hope you
aren't the current owner of my
old house) and bought a pack of stick-on
anchors that were made for this
purpose.  They were about an inch square and
had an opening in the center
where a small nylon cable tie could be looped
through it and the bundle of
wire.  They were easy to use and readily
available at the big box stores. 
They stuck to the studs very well, but we
moved about a year after I finished
the basement, so I can't say how long they
stayed attached.



Sorry if that
description isn't very clear.  I think I have a few left if you
would like a
photo of one and could also drop one in the mail if you wanted a
sample.


As
for metal studs, I found them to be great.  Very easy to put up, straight
(unlike most wood 2x4's these days) and very sound structurally, once the
drywall is in place.  Being able to stick a magnetic level on them was a real
plus, as I was working alone.  Plumbing and wiring was a breeze, thanks to the
cutouts.  You do need drywall on both sides for structural rigidity, which
sounds like something your PO didn't do.


> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:46:30
-0800
> From: doug at dougbraun.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject:
[Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
>
> Hello,
>
> In my house, a
previous owner finished the basement, and the interior walls
were done with
sheet metal studs (a stupid idea, in my opinion). On the
unfinished side of
the walls there is a lot of loose NM wiring for the outlets
and light switches
which is not properly attached to anything. So, what is the
official, correct
way to attach wiring to metal studs? (Of course, if the
studs were wood, I
would simply use staples.) For wire runs that have to pass
horizontally, I
have already installed plastic grommets in the holes in the
studs, but what
about the vertical runs?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
>
_______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
http://www.team.net/archive
_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail
and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html

You are subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net
Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan  6 15:59:32 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:59:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <527703.13726.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>
	<527703.13726.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D042851A46444ADA5CC3E0088DBE309@jdnet.deere.com>

> So, 
> what is the official, correct way to attach wiring to metal 
> studs?

This might help:
http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/DesignGuides/BuildersSteelStudGuide.pdf

I've also seen a thing like a plastic staple with a sheet metal screws used,
but no idea where to buy them.
http://www.cssbi.ca/Eng/_pdf/House-Chapter6Final.pdf

-- Randall  

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jan  6 20:14:35 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:14:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <820679.55634.qm@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>,
	<527703.13726.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL115-W35FBAD6DC1B7C925367292CC720@phx.gbl>,
	<820679.55634.qm@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W29B0C0BFA54CA37DD94116CC710@phx.gbl>

Yep.  Them's the ones.  Not the exact same as I used (I think I got mine at
HD), but essentially the same thing.

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:17:04 -0800
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; doug at dougbraun.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net



Something like this at Lowes.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=292685-1781-45-
1MBUVL&lpage=none
Gardner Bender
10-Piece 1" X 1" Black Mounting Pads
Item #: 292685       Model: 45-1MBUVL

Randy





From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
To: doug at dougbraun.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 2:55:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?

Finally!  A question I can answer.  I did my basement that way (I hope you
aren't the current owner of my old house) and bought a pack of stick-on
anchors that were made for this purpose.  They were about an inch square and
had an opening in the center where a small nylon cable tie could be looped
through it and the bundle of wire.  They were easy to use and readily
available at the big box stores.  They stuck to the studs very well, but we
moved about a year after I finished the basement, so I can't say how long
 they
stayed attached.



Sorry if that description isn't very clear.  I think I have a few left if you
would like a photo of one and could also drop one in the mail if you wanted a
sample.


As for metal studs, I found them to be great.  Very easy to put up, straight
(unlike most wood 2x4's these days) and very sound structurally, once the
drywall is in place.  Being able to stick a magnetic level on them was a real
plus, as I was working alone.  Plumbing and wiring was a breeze, thanks to
the
cutouts.  You do need drywall on both sides for structural rigidity, which
sounds like something your PO didn't do.


> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:46:30 -0800
> From: doug at dougbraun.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
>
> Hello,
>
> In my house, a previous owner finished the basement, and the interior walls
were done with sheet metal studs (a stupid idea, in my opinion). On the
unfinished side of the walls there is a lot of loose NM wiring for the
outlets
and light switches which is not properly attached to anything. So, what is
the
official, correct way to attach wiring to metal studs? (Of course, if the
studs were wood, I would simply use staples.) For wire runs that have to pass
horizontally, I have already installed plastic grommets in the holes in the
studs, but what about the vertical runs?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/
You are subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Jan  7 18:04:24 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 19:04:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice on insulating a garage
In-Reply-To: <A0734630-3359-46AF-B255-ED155F21FA7E@groupwbench.org>
References: <COL115-W1655590EB03DBFDB6C47ACCC720@phx.gbl>,
	<A0734630-3359-46AF-B255-ED155F21FA7E@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <COL115-W5890CC7ABCA87750C6B47CC700@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  Some good advice to think about.  It feels a lot less daunting
now.  It's too cold to do the work for now; it's probably a project for the
early spring.  Or, as they say, manana.

Cheers,

Jim

> From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:45:49 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Advice on insulating a garage
>
> On Jan 6, 2010, at 9:36 AM, Jim Stone wrote:
> >  There is a fairly normal two-car section with 9
> > foot walls and a 'normal' roof line.
>
> If this has exposed rafters then I would insulate the building
> envelope, and not worry about the extra heating load. Sure it will
> take longer to heat as the peak will get all the hot air first, but I
> would appreciate the heated storage area. How would you keep the heat
> from getting into that storage area if you insulated the ceiling?
>
> It's also possible that you'll do a better job insulating all the
> exterior walls than trying to insulate specific rooms.
>
> Also, adding rafter ventilation via foam channels, and using ridge &
> soffit vents will keep the place cooler in summer and make your roof
> last longer.
>
> Some 4" ductwork and an inline fan can circulae hot air from the peak
> down to the floor level if you like.
>
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan  7 21:28:01 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 20:28:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Attaching wiring to steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W29B0C0BFA54CA37DD94116CC710@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <560152.87535.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks to everybody who mentioned the square stick-on gizmos.  I got some, and
they worked fine.

Doug

--- On Wed, 1/6/10, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
wrote:

> From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [Shop-talk]
Attaching wiring to steel studs?
> To: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net,
doug at dougbraun.com, shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Wednesday, January 6,
2010, 10:14 PM
> 
>  
> Yep.  Them's the ones.  Not the exact same as
> I used
(I think I got mine at HD), but essentially the same
> thing.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Jan  9 18:32:36 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:32:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter reading?
Message-ID: <4B492E34.3070106@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys,
I've been looking into ways to monitor electrical consumption of some 
large items around the shop and house.  Found a few places selling add 
in meters like the "ted" I've seen discussed here.

Then it occurred to me... the power company's meter on the side of the 
building it remote readable.  Is there any way I can get remote readings 
from it myself?  My power company seems to have guys in vehicles that 
cruise the neighborhoods and read from up to a couple hundred feet away. 
  Sounds like it's RF based?  But googling hasn't turned up much info on 
it.  Any ideas?

-Wayne

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sat Jan  9 18:37:40 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:37:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about LBC Electrical system book
Message-ID: <1756353875B945F3B184733F6BC8E974@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, All,

    Well it's time to prevail on the group's wisdom.  Has anyone seen this
book:  "Classic British Car Electrical Systems: Your guide to understanding,
repairing and improving the electrical components and systems that were
typical of British cars from 1950 to 1980 (Essential) (Paperback)" available
at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Classic-British-Electrical-Systems-understanding/dp/184
5842154?tag=dogpile-20

    It looks interesting and the reviews are positive.

    Thanks,

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' <-- long term resto project
1965 Ford Falcon <-- shorter term (I hope!) repair project
various other transportation pods

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Sun Jan 10 03:47:43 2010
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 05:47:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about LBC Electrical system book
References: <1756353875B945F3B184733F6BC8E974@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <51C8251CA0A044AD96067C2EFB1A1BAB@stargate>

Why yes, the author is a Brit friend in the Windsor Detroit MG Car Club and 
is an EE by trade.  He's been the LBC electrical wiz in our area for many 
years.
A worthwhile book.

Gordie Bird
'62 MGA
'67 BGT

> Hi, All,
>
>    Well it's time to prevail on the group's wisdom.  Has anyone seen this
> book:  "Classic British Car Electrical Systems: Your guide to 
> understanding,
> repairing and improving the electrical components and systems that were
> typical of British cars from 1950 to 1980 (Essential) (Paperback)" 
> available
> at Amazon
> http://www.amazon.com/Classic-British-Electrical-Systems-understanding/dp/184
> 5842154?tag=dogpile-20
>
>    It looks interesting and the reviews are positive.
>
>    Thanks,
>
> Mark Watson
> 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' <-- long term resto project
> 1965 Ford Falcon <-- shorter term (I hope!) repair project
> various other transportation pods
> _______________________________________________

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4757 (20100109) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Jan 10 09:07:27 2010
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:07:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question about LBC Electrical system book
In-Reply-To: <1756353875B945F3B184733F6BC8E974@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <65BD587596A24FF79AC347ABE53134FF@Digilink1>

Here's what you need to know about LBC electrical systems.....

They operate on smoke....

Keep the smoke inside the wires and everything works fine.....Let the smoke
leak out and you have problems....

;-)

Gerry Brazil

From nogera2 at att.net  Sun Jan 10 14:34:38 2010
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:34:38 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Aluminum
Message-ID: <5BCDCE03DFC64EC5A391EFE0D46C111A@mini>

I'm doing some repairs on an aluminum fender. The edge of the fender is
finished with a rolled wire edge. A couple of the cracks in the aluminum are
at the wire edge. I will be taking the fender to a shop to be welded. What I
would like to know is can the aluminum be welded with the wire in place or
will the steel wire cause problems with welding the aluminum which is
wrapped around the steel wire?

Thanks

Bob

From herbtobin at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 10 15:01:25 2010
From: herbtobin at hotmail.com (Herb Tobin)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:01:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anyone know how to reach Bob Jernigan
Message-ID: <SNT104-W39789F97C4F5C7EAEFD1BFAC6E0@phx.gbl>

Does anyone know how I can reach someone named Bob Jernigan who is or was the
owner of a Porsche Speedster about three or four years ago. I am trying to
trace this particular car and the e-mail address I have is obsolete.



Thanks for any help you can give me.



                       Herb Tobin



_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 10 16:27:06 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:27:06 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] MP3 players
Message-ID: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

This is actually for my shop, so on-topic (sorta):

The Memorex "Clip and Play" MP3 player that provides music in my garage has
died after a year of more-or-less continuous service.  Suited my desires
well, I just loaded 2 Gb of my favorite music into it and let it run on
"scramble play" (amp & speakers are wired into the light switch); so I'd
like to find something similar that would perhaps last a bit longer.

Still, at $20, I could just plan on buying a new one every year, wouldn't
bother me as much as paying nearly 10 times as much as an iPod that also
requires I install unreliable and obtrusive software on my PC just to
program the thing.  The Memorex just emulates a thumb drive, no special
software needed.

So, my question is, does anyone have experience with another "non fruity"
MP3 player in the under $50 price range?

Randall

From shiples at comcast.net  Sun Jan 10 16:56:35 2010
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:56:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] MP3 players
In-Reply-To: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100110154331.03e8ba80@mail.comcast.net>

At 03:27 PM 1/10/2010 -0800, Randall wrote:
>This is actually for my shop, so on-topic (sorta):
>
>So, my question is, does anyone have experience with another "non fruity"
>MP3 player in the under $50 price range?

I bought a Sansa then an iPod and I actually like the Sansa better.

Neither of 'em were intuitive to me and I still don't use them very much.
The Sansa acts like a thumb drive tho, and it's much smaller so it's
my entertainment when I take the bus.

My new car stereo accomodates both the iPod, the Sansa, and a thumb
drive.  I use Total Recorder to record from music streams or Rhapsody
and put it on the thumb drive.  I DO like some of this technology.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 17:23:16 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:23:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] MP3 players
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20100110154331.03e8ba80@mail.comcast.net>
References: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20100110154331.03e8ba80@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385361001101623n6229bc3fm39d9f4f233d18d22@mail.gmail.com>

*The wife and I each have:*
**
Trekstor i.Beat Emo

*We bought them from Office Depot during a special promo for $36 each with a
$30 rebate!   Yep, $6 buck each.  We use them every day at the gym and they
have given perfect service for over a year,  They sync with your Windows
"Media Player" or whatever.  I like the "rechargable from a USB2 port"
feature.  I added better earpieces to mine but the furnished buds are okay.*
*Tony*

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jan 10 17:25:34 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:25:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MP3 players
In-Reply-To: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4B4A6FFE.2010602@xxiii.com>

Randall wrote:
> So, my question is, does anyone have experience with another "non fruity"
> MP3 player in the under $50 price range?

I'd suggest NewEgg.com -- hop on their MP3 player section, use their 
wonderful "power search" for brands you like with features you need in 
the price range, and look over the customer reviews:

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=23&name=MP3-MP4-Players

-Wayne

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sun Jan 10 21:18:39 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:18:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] MP3 players
In-Reply-To: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4B4AA69F.3000704@verizon.net>

I have been using one of these at the gym for over a year, no problems 
other than the menu setup is pretty lame.  Still, if you just put it on 
shuffle repeat that's not a problem, and 4GB is a lot of music.

> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16855507012



Randall wrote:
> This is actually for my shop, so on-topic (sorta):
>
> The Memorex "Clip and Play" MP3 player that provides music in my garage has
> died after a year of more-or-less continuous service.  Suited my desires
> well, I just loaded 2 Gb of my favorite music into it and let it run on
> "scramble play" (amp&  speakers are wired into the light switch); so I'd
> like to find something similar that would perhaps last a bit longer.
>
> Still, at $20, I could just plan on buying a new one every year, wouldn't
> bother me as much as paying nearly 10 times as much as an iPod that also
> requires I install unreliable and obtrusive software on my PC just to
> program the thing.  The Memorex just emulates a thumb drive, no special
> software needed.
>
> So, my question is, does anyone have experience with another "non fruity"
> MP3 player in the under $50 price range?
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 12 11:15:23 2010
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:15:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] MP3 players
In-Reply-To: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <B7.ED.19543.9426A4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <604104.1369.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

CompUSA/Tiger Direct usually has the mp3 players cheap. 
Get on their mailing list and they will show up often enough
below $15.

I partially setup a surround system for my grandmother last night.
The system had an iPod dock. Borrowed mom's iPod to
test and while playing around (without reading the instructions 
of course) I discovered that the remote can change channels or
operate the iPod. Pretty intriguing I think, but I too refuse to load
iTunes on my pc and refuse to get stuck in their way of doing
things. 

Regards,
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



________________________________
From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: Shop-Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sun, January 10, 2010 6:27:06 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] MP3 players

(snip)

Still, at $20, I could just plan on buying a new one every year, wouldn't
bother me as much as paying nearly 10 times as much as an iPod that also
requires I install unreliable and obtrusive software on my PC just to
program the thing.  The Memorex just emulates a thumb drive, no special
software needed.

So, my question is, does anyone have experience with another "non fruity"
MP3 player in the under $50 price range?
(snip)

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Jan 12 16:49:57 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:49:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
Message-ID: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>

I'm debugging some trailer wiring and would really like to have a 12v  
power source that could handle 6 bulb's worth of current, rather than  
leaving the trailer plugged into the car, or having a battery on the  
benchtop with a charger. Is there such a beast? I'm finding lots of  
super pricy clean power devices but all I need is a $20 black box.

thanks,
jim

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 12 17:17:25 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:17:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>

At 06:49 PM 1/12/2010, Jim Franklin wrote:

 >I'm debugging some trailer wiring and would really like to have a 12v
 >power source that could handle 6 bulb's worth of current, rather than
 >leaving the trailer plugged into the car, or having a battery on the
 >benchtop with a charger. Is there such a beast? I'm finding lots of
 >super pricy clean power devices but all I need is a $20 black box.

Jim,

Do you have any idea of how much current the entire trailer lighting takes?

Would you be willing to live with a 120V power cord plugged into the wall?

You'll need a 120 to 12 V transformer.  The 12V side will need to be rated for
about 1.5 times the total current the trailer needs.  Then a couple of diodes.
You could get fancy and add some filter caps and you'd be all set.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Jan 12 18:03:42 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:03:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
Message-ID: <7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:17 PM, John T. Blair wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> Do you have any idea of how much current the entire trailer lighting  
> takes?

The 1157s use 3 amps each, times 2, plus 4 169 running lights. 10  
amps? 12?
>
> Would you be willing to live with a 120V power cord plugged into the  
> wall?

Absolutely. That's what I'm looking for.

>
> You'll need a 120 to 12 V transformer.  The 12V side will need to be  
> rated for
> about 1.5 times the total current the trailer needs.  Then a couple  
> of diodes.
> You could get fancy and add some filter caps and you'd be all set.

Well, I don't want to spend more time sourcing/building one than I  
will using it, otherwise I'd rig up a battery & charger. I just find  
it hard to believe I can't walk into a store and buy a 12v power  
source. Surely mechanics use this all the time?

jim

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Tue Jan 12 18:27:07 2010
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:27:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <C772616B.5E74%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Jim, if you have a charger that has a start position, you might look at that
as a source. Looks like you'll need about 10 amps or so. Starting current is
100 A or so for a short time, so it might take 10 amps for long enough to
get your work done.
Brian K


On 1/12/10 5:03 PM, "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

> On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:17 PM, John T. Blair wrote:
>> 
>> Jim,
>> 
>> Do you have any idea of how much current the entire trailer lighting
>> takes?
> 
> The 1157s use 3 amps each, times 2, plus 4 169 running lights. 10
> amps? 12?
>> 
>> Would you be willing to live with a 120V power cord plugged into the
>> wall?
> 
> Absolutely. That's what I'm looking for.
> 
>> 
>> You'll need a 120 to 12 V transformer.  The 12V side will need to be
>> rated for
>> about 1.5 times the total current the trailer needs.  Then a couple
>> of diodes.
>> You could get fancy and add some filter caps and you'd be all set.
> 
> Well, I don't want to spend more time sourcing/building one than I
> will using it, otherwise I'd rig up a battery & charger. I just find
> it hard to believe I can't walk into a store and buy a 12v power
> source. Surely mechanics use this all the time?
> 
> jim
> _

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jan 12 18:29:29 2010
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:29:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
Message-ID: <201001130129.o0D1TTke008550@moose.dimebank.com>

> Well, I don't want to spend more time sourcing/building one than I  
> will using it, otherwise I'd rig up a battery & charger. I just find  
> it hard to believe I can't walk into a store and buy a 12v power  
> source. Surely mechanics use this all the time?

Of course you can. They're big and heavy or expensive or both.

Here's a nice 3A unit that I just bought: 

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/PS1303U

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jan 12 18:43:46 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:43:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
	<7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4B4D2552.1030000@xxiii.com>

Jim Franklin wrote:
> The 1157s use 3 amps each, times 2, plus 4 169 running lights. 10 amps? 12?

You can google or ebay for "bench power supply" but they start to get 
expensive if they put out any decent current.

How about a computer power supply?  Newer ones have high current on 12V. 
  They usually need some load on them to start, and you need a switch on 
the motherboard connector.  I rigged one up at work, can check tomorrow.

Personally, I just use an old battery for that stuff.  You can buy a 
lawn tractor battery for <$30 that's nice & compact, for portability & 
storage.

-Wayne

From chad at linuxeg.com  Tue Jan 12 19:09:53 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:09:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4B4D2B71.2020402@linuxeg.com>

Take a look here:

http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category/41

The $20 might limit your choices.

chad


> At 06:49 PM 1/12/2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
>
> >I'm debugging some trailer wiring and would really like to have a 12v
> >power source that could handle 6 bulb's worth of current, rather than
> >leaving the trailer plugged into the car, or having a battery on the
> >benchtop with a charger. Is there such a beast? I'm finding lots of
> >super pricy clean power devices but all I need is a $20 black box.
>
> Jim,
>
>

-- 
"Government always finds a need 
for whatever money it gets." 
Ronald Reagan 

From mark at bradakis.com  Tue Jan 12 19:16:49 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:16:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
	<7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4B4D2D11.4010303@bradakis.com>

An old electric train transformer.

mjb.

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Jan 12 19:32:52 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:32:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <6D55B76173414430BA3F2B8BC6000EBD@EricJRussellPC>

Would a model railroad (or slot car) power supply work? Their outputs are 
typically 12V (but some might be higher). Not sure offhand about the 
amperage however.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 6:49 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?


> I'm debugging some trailer wiring and would really like to have a 12v
> power source that could handle 6 bulb's worth of current, rather than
> leaving the trailer plugged into the car, or having a battery on the
> benchtop with a charger. Is there such a beast? I'm finding lots of
> super pricy clean power devices but all I need is a $20 black box.
>
> thanks,
> jim

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan 12 19:28:18 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:58:18 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <201001130129.o0D1TTke008550@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <OFDBE0C53E.9740A575-ON642576AA.000DBC6A-642576AA.000E034A@mail.megageek.com>

> Well, I don't want to spend more time sourcing/building one than I 
> will using it, otherwise I'd rig up a battery & charger. I just find 
> it hard to believe I can't walk into a store and buy a 12v power 
> source. Surely mechanics use this all the time?

They are all over the place.  But it's such an easy build/mod that most 
people make their own.

Check out this site.  There are hundreds of ways to make them!

In fact, if you are on this list and don't regularly read 
"www.instructables.com"  you are missing out on some of the coolest 
projects out there!  My only complaint is that you can waste days reading 
and building projects without even knowing it!


<
http://www.instructables.com/tag/?q=power+supply&limit%3Atype%3Aid=on&type%3Aid=on&type%3Auser=on&type%3Acomment=on&type%3Agroup=on&type%3AforumTopic=on&type%3AforumTopic=on&sort=none
>

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From shop at justbrits.com  Tue Jan 12 20:54:19 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:54:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <4B4D2B71.2020402@linuxeg.com>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
	<4B4D2B71.2020402@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <4B4D43EB.2080006@justbrits.com>

<<http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category/41

The $20 might limit your choices. >>

And the $170 would limit you to 10 amps <F> !!

<G>

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 12 20:58:50 2010
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:58:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org><6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net><4B4D2B71.2020402@linuxeg.com>
	<4B4D43EB.2080006@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <925490A9E5FE4BE9B604C0D9CE9E4FEA@B50SS>

Hi all,

I am sure I must be missing something here, but would not a 12 volt car 
battery connected to a cheap 12 volt battery charger connected to the rig 
work?

Slap me if I am stupid.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Shop at " Just Brits "" <shop at justbrits.com>
Cc: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?


> <<http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category/41
>
> The $20 might limit your choices. >>
>
> And the $170 would limit you to 10 amps <F> !!
>
> <G>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 12 20:59:40 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:59:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <OFDBE0C53E.9740A575-ON642576AA.000DBC6A-642576AA.000E034A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <201001130129.o0D1TTke008550@moose.dimebank.com>,
	<OFDBE0C53E.9740A575-ON642576AA.000DBC6A-642576AA.000E034A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W533C82680827390FF4C692E16B0@phx.gbl>

> In fact, if you are on this list and don't regularly read
> "www.instructables.com" you are missing out on some of the coolest
> projects out there! My only complaint is that you can waste days reading
> and building projects without even knowing it!


Ok, now you've done it!!!

I will never ever get anything done again. %^)

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan 12 21:36:50 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:36:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <DC3D614DFF8846F2B9709BB1AF565F63@hpa1477c>

Jim,

Do you know anyone into RC Planes?  If you are in the greater Seattle area,
I have a few you could borrow.  We use them for the starter batteries and to
power 12 volt powered (car plug in) smart chargers.

I modified a $3 used computer power supply to provide very clean, short
circuit protected 12v.  A few examples of "How to" are attached.  Sorry
everyone else, the server will strip them from your message.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 3:50 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?

I'm debugging some trailer wiring and would really like to have a 12v  
power source that could handle 6 bulb's worth of current, rather than  
leaving the trailer plugged into the car, or having a battery on the  
benchtop with a charger. Is there such a beast? I'm finding lots of  
super pricy clean power devices but all I need is a $20 black box.

thanks,
jim
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of Desktop Power Supply from a PC.doc]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of Setting Up a PC power supply as a charger - better.doc]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of Setting Up a PC power supply as a charger.doc]

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan 12 21:44:05 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:44:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <CE.5D.19543.59F4D4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> I just find  
> it hard to believe I can't walk into a store and buy a 12v power  
> source.

Walking in and buying one is no problem, it's the $20 budget that is a
problem.

> Surely mechanics use this all the time?

Nope, not most of them anyway.  Besides, how long can you spend
troubleshooting lights?  Just hook up a battery, or a battery charger and be
done with it.

BTW, I have a couple of regulated 6v power supplies that I'm tired of
tripping over.  If anyone wants to come pick them up, they're yours.   But
these things are BIG and HEAVY.  I doubt you'd want them for your workbench.

Randall

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Jan 13 06:58:30 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:58:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <925490A9E5FE4BE9B604C0D9CE9E4FEA@B50SS>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org><6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net><4B4D2B71.2020402@linuxeg.com>
	<4B4D43EB.2080006@justbrits.com>
	<925490A9E5FE4BE9B604C0D9CE9E4FEA@B50SS>
Message-ID: <39EACE62-B1E3-4A53-AC95-850C15AFB41E@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 12, 2010, at 10:58 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am sure I must be missing something here, but would not a 12 volt  
> car battery connected to a cheap 12 volt battery charger connected  
> to the rig work?

The part you're missing is where I said I didn't want to do that :-)

But after all the replies, that's going to be the cheapest and easiest  
solution, by much farther than I anticipated. I'm not the neatest or  
the most patient  when it comes to wires on the bench so I wanted a  
solution I could "put away", but at the cost of a specialized device I  
could hire a neighborhood kid to stow it for me.

Also, a resolution for this year is that amassing the tools/setup to  
do a project should not take more time than the project itself.

Thanks everyone!

jim

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Jan 13 07:48:00 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:48:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
	<7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001130946390.7123@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Well, I don't want to spend more time sourcing/building one than I will 
> using it, otherwise I'd rig up a battery & charger. I just find it hard 
> to believe I can't walk into a store and buy a 12v power source. Surely 
> mechanics use this all the time?

The only things like this I see mechanics use all the time are jumper 
packs (which, thinking about it, might work for you, as long as you leave 
it plugged in) or starter/chargers.

A typical mechanic doesn't have many reasons to apply 12vdc to something 
on the bench.

Mark

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jan 13 08:18:26 2010
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:18:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <39EACE62-B1E3-4A53-AC95-850C15AFB41E@groupwbench.org>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org><6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net><4B4D2B71.2020402@linuxeg.com>
	<4B4D43EB.2080006@justbrits.com>
	<925490A9E5FE4BE9B604C0D9CE9E4FEA@B50SS>
	<39EACE62-B1E3-4A53-AC95-850C15AFB41E@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <783083.13204.qm@web82408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

How about a portable jump box?  Something like this one.  Easily portable and
self contained. 
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3918487


Randy
________________________________
From: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, January 13, 2010 7:58:30
AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?

On Jan 12, 2010,
at 10:58 PM, old dirtbeard wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I am sure I must be missing
something here, but would not a 12 volt car battery connected to a cheap 12
volt battery charger connected to the rig work?

The part you're missing is
where I said I didn't want to do that :-)

But after all the replies, that's
going to be the cheapest and easiest solution, by much farther than I
anticipated. I'm not the neatest or the most patient  when it comes to wires
on the bench so I wanted a solution I could "put away", but at the cost of a
specialized device I could hire a neighborhood kid to stow it for me.

Also, a
resolution for this year is that amassing the tools/setup to do a project
should not take more time than the project itself.

Thanks everyone!

jim
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html

Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are
subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM  Wed Jan 13 08:23:21 2010
From: Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM (Pat at HORNESYSTEMSTX.COM)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:23:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] =?utf-8?q?12_volt_benchtop_power_supply=3F?=
Message-ID: <20100113082321.997a8624c2b4dae4e01298000bf07581.582d84e004.wbe@email.secureserver.net>


From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Jan 13 08:34:52 2010
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:34:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
Message-ID: <201001131534.o0DFYqxW003048@moose.dimebank.com>

> > I am sure I must be missing something here, but would not a 12 volt  
> > car battery connected to a cheap 12 volt battery charger connected  
> > to the rig work?
> 
> The part you're missing is where I said I didn't want to do that :-)

You can do the same thing, but with a smaller 12V battery. I have a
7Ah SLA battery under the bench that is my "mobile power supply"
for lots of car and ham radio projects - it's about the size of
and slightly heavier than a brick, and has a pigtail with PowerPoles
permanently attached, which matches up with most of my other
power leads. (Someone who isn't a ham or into RC might use a two-terminal
trailer connector.)

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Jan 13 08:41:12 2010
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:41:12 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <201001131534.o0DFYqxW003048@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <201001131534.o0DFYqxW003048@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <4B4DE998.3070400@dimebank.com>

Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
>>> I am sure I must be missing something here, but would not a 12 volt  
>>> car battery connected to a cheap 12 volt battery charger connected  
>>> to the rig work?
>> The part you're missing is where I said I didn't want to do that :-)
> 
> You can do the same thing, but with a smaller 12V battery. I have a
> 7Ah SLA battery under the bench that is my "mobile power supply"
> for lots of car and ham radio projects - it's about the size of
> and slightly heavier than a brick, and has a pigtail with PowerPoles
> permanently attached, which matches up with most of my other
> power leads. 

Which is, more or less, what's in a portable jump box. Great idea.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 09:25:40 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:25:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001130946390.7123@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <262226AE-0EAB-41EC-8FF3-FCCD55C7E38A@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100112191033.01f98b48@cox.net>
	<7038835C-3E5F-48AC-86DA-A22DCCF0A7E1@groupwbench.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001130946390.7123@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001130825g74875772i35fec48c4310b648@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

> Howdy,
>
>
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
>
>> Well, I don't want to spend more time sourcing/building one than I will
>> using it, otherwise I'd rig up a battery & charger. I just find it hard to
>> believe I can't walk into a store and buy a 12v power source. Surely
>> mechanics use this all the time?
>>
>
> The only things like this I see mechanics use all the time are jumper packs
> (which, thinking about it, might work for you, as long as you leave it
> plugged in) or starter/chargers.
>
> A typical mechanic doesn't have many reasons to apply 12vdc to something on
> the bench.
>
>
And the people who do have reason to do so require a whole lot of
regulation, so they're expensive.  A small batery is the way to go.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Jan 13 16:26:33 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:26:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 12 volt benchtop power supply?]
Message-ID: <4B4E56A9.6020904@justbrits.com>

<<Slap me if I am stupid. >>


Sorry 'shook', no slapping today !!!

LOL

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan 14 06:58:08 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:58:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <4B492E34.3070106@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

My basement (pretty conventional 70's construction) has a set of steps going out to the back yard, which are topped with a set of "Bilco" steel doors.  They keep the rain out just fine, but they are pretty drafty and chilly in the winter.  I was thinking of installing an insulated door at the bottom of the steps.  The problem is that there is no built-in door frame, and the opening is about 4 feet wide by 7 feet high, and I have never seen doors of this shape being sold.

Has anybody ever seen a pre-built (or made-to-order) door that would be suitable?  Or would have to build the door frame and the door itself from scratch?  Looks, security, and weather resistance are not important, just sealing and insulating ability.

I guess I could build up something from lumber and plywood, but I am worried that it wold take a couple of iterations to get something that works reasonably well, is mechanically sound, and doesn't scream "Home Depot weekend project"...

Thanks,

Doug

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 14 07:59:05 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 06:59:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <94.8C.19578.8313F4B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> I guess I could build up something from lumber and plywood, 
> but I am worried that it wold take a couple of iterations to 
> get something that works reasonably well, is mechanically 
> sound, and doesn't scream "Home Depot weekend project"...

Not likely you'll find anything pre-made to fit that opening, so IMO you are
stuck either making your own, or paying someone else to do it for you.

Certainly more than a weekend project, but I wouldn't think it would be too
hard to lay up your own door, assuming a simple flat, painted surface is
acceptable.  "2 by" core, waterproof glue, masonite skin.  Make it oversize
and trim to fit later.  

Frames aren't that hard either, the moldings are available at Home Depot.
Install the top piece first, with shims to get it straight and level; then
the sides (also shimmed for straight and vertical) and a threshold (which
can be left out of square).  Once you've got the finished size, cut the door
to almost fit (ie no room for the sweep & weather-stripping) then add the
hinges before doing the final trim.  I recommend the jig for cutting hinge
mortises with a router; but I have done it by hand.  (Note that there are
two different kinds of hinges, square corners if you use a chisel, rounded
corners for a router.)

Then add stop moldings and the lock mortises.  HD offers a mortise kit, but
I just use the template that comes with the latch hardware along with some
hole saws & a chisel.

Now fill up all the gaps with foam, add some trim moldings, paint it; and
you're done.  Wood putty & paint will cover a multitude of sins <G>

Randall

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Thu Jan 14 08:03:38 2010
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:03:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C774724A.5EDE%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Doug, if you don't need the 4'x7', it shouldn't be too hard to take a few
2x4s and frame it down to a standard door. Add a little insulation and
paneling (or dry wall if you want more work) and you're done. If you lived
near Ann Arbor, I'd give you a door and frame left over from my last
project.
Brian K


On 1/14/10 5:58 AM, "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> My basement (pretty conventional 70's construction) has a set of steps going
> out to the back yard, which are topped with a set of "Bilco" steel doors.
> They keep the rain out just fine, but they are pretty drafty and chilly in the
> winter.  I was thinking of installing an insulated door at the bottom of the
> steps.  The problem is that there is no built-in door frame, and the opening
> is about 4 feet wide by 7 feet high, and I have never seen doors of this shape
> being sold.
> 
> Has anybody ever seen a pre-built (or made-to-order) door that would be
> suitable?  Or would have to build the door frame and the door itself from
> scratch?  Looks, security, and weather resistance are not important, just
> sealing and insulating ability.
> 
> I guess I could build up something from lumber and plywood, but I am worried
> that it wold take a couple of iterations to get something that works
> reasonably well, is mechanically sound, and doesn't scream "Home Depot weekend
> project"...
> 
> Thanks,

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jan 14 08:15:36 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:15:36 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B4F3518.3070305@hornesystemstx.com>

Doug,

You won't find the needed door in stock at Home Depot, but they can 
probably order you a custom made door that fits you need. They can 
probably also supply you with the jamb for it. If not, check with some 
of the local building suppliers or window/door shops to see what they 
will charge. Around here (central Texas) the suppliers that the local 
larger contractors deal with can supply any door you like.

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake Doug Braun, On 1/14/2010 7:58 AM:
> Hello,
>
> My basement (pretty conventional 70's construction) has a set of steps going out to the back yard, which are topped with a set of "Bilco" steel doors.  They keep the rain out just fine, but they are pretty drafty and chilly in the winter.  I was thinking of installing an insulated door at the bottom of the steps.  The problem is that there is no built-in door frame, and the opening is about 4 feet wide by 7 feet high, and I have never seen doors of this shape being sold.
>
> Has anybody ever seen a pre-built (or made-to-order) door that would be suitable?  Or would have to build the door frame and the door itself from scratch?  Looks, security, and weather resistance are not important, just sealing and insulating ability.
>
> I guess I could build up something from lumber and plywood, but I am worried that it wold take a couple of iterations to get something that works reasonably well, is mechanically sound, and doesn't scream "Home Depot weekend project"...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jan 14 12:40:24 2010
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:40:24 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
Message-ID: <20100114.144024.25982.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

I second Brian,
Buy or find a framed door unit (HD or Lowes have various sizes) smaller than
7X4 and just frame around it to fit.  Consider whether you want it to swing
toward the stairs or into the basement and offset accordingly. If the exterior
doors are fairly weather tight, you may get away with an interior door - very
cheap.  However a fully weatherstripped exterior door will be more air tight.

Good luck.

Matt

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Brian Kennedy <kennedybc at comcast.net>
To: Team shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:03:38 -0800

Doug, if you don't need the 4'x7', it shouldn't be too hard to take a few 2x4s
and frame it down to a standard door.

____________________________________________________________
Love Spell
Click here to light up your life with a love spell!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=_zj8oGsR7zgy2AE0J7KqGwAAJ1Bdm0m
GPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARwAAAAA=

From drew at DasRogges.com  Thu Jan 14 13:08:57 2010
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:08:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <20100114.144024.25982.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20100114.144024.25982.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <4B4F79D9.5030809@DasRogges.com>

One thing you might want to check first is the size of anything you might
want to get in or out of the basement. Like maybe an oil tank, huge milling
machine or lathe :-) If it's bigger that a standard door you might be tearing
out the door and framing some day. This still isn't standard but what about
two 2' wide doors? You'd still have most of your 4' wide access.

Drew

Matt wrote:
> I second Brian,
> Buy or find a framed door unit (HD or Lowes have various sizes) smaller than
> 7X4 and just frame around it to fit.  Consider whether you want it to swing
> toward the stairs or into the basement and offset accordingly. If the exterior
> doors are fairly weather tight, you may get away with an interior door - very
> cheap.  However a fully weatherstripped exterior door will be more air tight.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Matt

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan 14 13:14:31 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:14:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <4B4F79D9.5030809@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <569370.47191.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, I definitely want to avoid reducing the effective width of the stairway.  Do using a narrower door and framing to fit is not an option.

Doug

--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Drew Rogge <drew at DasRogges.com> wrote:

> From: Drew Rogge <drew at DasRogges.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
> To: "Matt" <mbarre at juno.com>
> Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 3:08 PM
> One thing you might want to check
> first is the size of anything you might
> want to get in or out of the basement. Like maybe an oil
> tank, huge milling
> machine or lathe :-) If it's bigger that a standard door
> you might be tearing
> out the door and framing some day. This still isn't
> standard but what about
> two 2' wide doors? You'd still have most of your 4' wide
> access.
> 
> Drew

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jan 14 13:29:14 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:29:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rubber surface for motorcycle trailer ramp?
Message-ID: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>

I have a small dirt bike that has ice screws in the tires. I'm looking  
for a rubber-type material to keep the tires from sliding around on  
the metal trailer ramp. I'm on my way to Lowes to look at their ice &  
water shield for roofing, but it may be too tar-impregnanted, or may  
have an aluminum backing like the Home Depot brand.

Any suggestions on a suitable material? Peel and stick to metal is  
required, and a 6" pre-cut width would be really nice. Carpet would  
work but might stink after a few months. Grit-based tape will wear  
down the ice screws.

thanks,
jim

From mikey at b2systems.com  Thu Jan 14 13:31:05 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:31:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <20100114.144024.25982.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20100114.144024.25982.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <1263501065.19076.16.camel@WebBrowser>

 What about 2 doors, a standard 3ft. door and 1ft. door and making the
1ft. the one that stays put most of the time.  We have a french door out
to the yard in our house, its a 5ft total opening, 3ft. and 2ft. the
2ft. hardly ever gets opened, that would still give you full width
access and you could just buy a 2ft. door and cut it if it was solid
core.  The hardware is expensive when you wants brushed nickel and...oh
wait, never mind :)

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Jan 14 14:07:07 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:07:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rubber surface for motorcycle trailer ramp?
In-Reply-To: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
> I have a small dirt bike that has ice screws in the tires. I'm looking for a 
> rubber-type material to keep the tires from sliding around on the metal 
> trailer ramp. I'm on my way to Lowes to look at their ice & water shield for 
> roofing, but it may be too tar-impregnanted, or may have an aluminum backing 
> like the Home Depot brand.
>
> Any suggestions on a suitable material? Peel and stick to metal is required, 
> and a 6" pre-cut width would be really nice. Carpet would work but might 
> stink after a few months. Grit-based tape will wear down the ice screws.

    How many hundred-thousand times are you going to load and unload the 
bike?  Less than 5, and I don't think you have to worry about wearing down 
the screws, do you?  I have a set of car tires with probably-similar
screws ( Kold Kutters ) and they've suffered no ill effects from a lot of 
rolling around on pavement and concrete ( under a 2100 pound car ) and 
metal trailer floor.

    I have some tape at home that I think would work great.  I can't 
remember what it's called but it's some kind of rubberized asphalt in a 4" 
wide stick-on tape.  If you aren't dead-set against that sort of tape, 
I'll check tonight and see what it is called.  If you are dead-set against 
that, I don't know what else is going to peel-and-stick to (cold) metal. 
We used this tape to replace the interior carpet in the ice-racer, and it 
worked great.

    Are you driving the bike in, or walking it?  I think you'll tear up 
carpet in no time if the former.  I know I left tracks in my asphalt 
driveway with my studded tires, and that was just very slow moves in and 
out of the garage and trailer.

--
  David Hillman

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Jan 14 14:08:14 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:08:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B4F87BE.4030602@comcast.net>

On 1/14/2010 8:58 AM, Doug Braun wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My basement (pretty conventional 70's construction) has a set of steps going out to the back yard, which are topped with a set of "Bilco" steel doors.  They keep the rain out just fine, but they are pretty drafty and chilly in the winter.  I was thinking of installing an insulated door at the bottom of the steps.  The problem is that there is no built-in door frame, and the opening is about 4 feet wide by 7 feet high, and I have never seen doors of this shape being sold.
>
> Has anybody ever seen a pre-built (or made-to-order) door that would be suitable?  Or would have to build the door frame and the door itself from scratch?  Looks, security, and weather resistance are not important, just sealing and insulating ability.
>
> I guess I could build up something from lumber and plywood, but I am worried that it wold take a couple of iterations to get something that works reasonably well, is mechanically sound, and doesn't scream "Home Depot weekend project"...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
>    
You can make a door fairly easily yourself using construction lumber, 
two sheets of 1/4 luan plywood and some rigid foam.  Cut the two sheets 
of luan to the size of the door you want.   Lay one sheet down on a flat 
surface.  Gut and glue lumber to go around the perimeter.  Infill with 
rigid foam, and finally glue the second sheet of luan on.   This is a 
stress skin panel door and is the same construction as flat 1970's 
interior hollow core doors except instead of being filled with 
corrugated cardboard you're using ridge foam.

Peter Thomas

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan 14 14:28:39 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:28:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <4B4F87BE.4030602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <149849.77178.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That's starting to look like the plan.  A local building supply place said
that a pre-framed door for a 48" opening could be custom-made, but it would be
about $350.

The harderr part of the project is making a solid, square frame
that is properly attached to the cement walls.  I also have to deal with the
fact that there is a step where the door is supposed to go, so the sill (if
any) might be tricky.

Doug

--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Peter J. Thomas
<pj_thomas at comcast.net> wrote:

> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Doug
> >    
> You can
make a door fairly easily yourself using
> construction lumber, two sheets of
1/4 luan plywood and some
> rigid foam.  Cut the two sheets of luan to the
size of
> the door you want.   Lay one sheet down on a
> flat surface.  Gut
and glue lumber to go around the
> perimeter.  Infill with rigid foam, and
finally glue
> the second sheet of luan on.   This is a
> stress skin panel
door and is the same construction as flat
> 1970's interior hollow core doors
except instead of being
> filled with corrugated cardboard you're using ridge
foam.
> 
> Peter Thomas

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Thu Jan 14 15:34:58 2010
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:34:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <4B4F87BE.4030602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <C774DC12.5EFE%kennedybc@comcast.net>

If you're willing to give up on the insulation properties, something as
simple as a patio door or even an accordian door could work. I'm guessing
that since you already have one door stopping most of the breeze, the second
one wouldn't have to do much insulating. Here's one for $100.
http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/for/1552193189.html
It's pretty easy to lift out patio doors if you don't need the full width
too often.

Brian K


On 1/14/10 1:08 PM, "Peter J. Thomas" <pj_thomas at comcast.net> wrote:

> On 1/14/2010 8:58 AM, Doug Braun wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> My basement (pretty conventional 70's construction) has a set of steps going
>> out to the back yard, which are topped with a set of "Bilco" steel doors.
>> They keep the rain out just fine, but they are pretty drafty and chilly in
>> the winter.  I was thinking of installing an insulated door at the bottom of
>> the steps.  The problem is that there is no built-in door frame, and the
>> opening is about 4 feet wide by 7 feet high, and I have never seen doors of
>> this shape being sold.
>> 
>> Has anybody ever seen a pre-built (or made-to-order) door that would be
>> suitable?  Or would have to build the door frame and the door itself from
>> scratch?  Looks, security, and weather resistance are not important, just
>> sealing and insulating ability.
>> 
>> I guess I could build up something from lumber and plywood, but I am worried
>> that it wold take a couple of iterations to get something that works
>> reasonably well, is mechanically sound, and doesn't scream "Home Depot
>> weekend project"...
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Doug
>>    
> You can make a door fairly easily yourself using construction lumber,
> two sheets of 1/4 luan plywood and some rigid foam.  Cut the two sheets
> of luan to the size of the door you want.   Lay one sheet down on a flat
> surface.  Gut and glue lumber to go around the perimeter.  Infill with
> rigid foam, and finally glue the second sheet of luan on.   This is a
> stress skin panel door and is the same construction as flat 1970's
> interior hollow core doors except instead of being filled with
> corrugated cardboard you're using ridge foam.
> 
> Peter Thomas
> _

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jan 14 18:40:20 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:10:20 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <569370.47191.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OF30868724.2F4A11AE-ON642576AC.0008FA04-642576AC.00099EDC@mail.megageek.com>

Ok, go to your local Tractor Supply Store* (or equivalent). Stare at all 
the cool things for about an hour.  (doesn't anyone else do that?)

Then, once you have walked up and down every isle 2 or 3 times, go to the 
door hardware section.

Look for "door hangers" here is a link...

<javascript:wcds.loggerClickThrough(0, 0, 'iphrase bundle name', 
'/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=48028&storeId=10551&catalogId=10001&langId=-1'>

You'll also need the rail for it.

Now, here is what is really cool.  Once you mount the rail, instead of 
making just a door, build a book case (make it strong) that can hang from 
the rail.

Now, you got a cool 'hidden' door, that will not obstruct your opening, 
it's simple to do, and you got some 'street cred' for a cool project.  Oh 
yeah, and you got to hang out in a tractor supply store for a few hours.

*=is this the coolest store ever?  It's like a home depot without all the 
"girlie" items!  8>)  OH yeah, did you know that TSS encourages people to 
bring their dogs inside?  How cool is that!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Jan 14 19:24:58 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:24:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <OF30868724.2F4A11AE-ON642576AC.0008FA04-642576AC.00099EDC@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF30868724.2F4A11AE-ON642576AC.0008FA04-642576AC.00099EDC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001142122510.85275@itonami.pair.com>

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> <javascript:wcds.loggerClickThrough(0, 0, 'iphrase bundle name',
> '/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=48028&storeId=10551&catalogId=10001&langId=-1'>

    Link obviously no good... try ->

http://www.tractorsupply.com/home-improvement/hardware/door-hardware/rails-hangers/round-rail-hanger-600-pound-capacity-per-pair-flexible-with-door-strap-3542035


--
  David Hillman

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 14 19:25:10 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:25:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <912185.88044.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B4FD206.4070107@earthlink.net>

Doug - If you don't need to actually regularly use it as a door, how 
about just trimming down a sheet of 4x8 foam insulation board to be a 
pressure fit in the opening?  See 416989 or 270895 at homedepot.com for 
an example.  It can sit there most of the time and when you need to use 
the door, just pop it out.  If paintable, put a coat of paint on it and 
it can look just like the wall.  If you want to make it a bit more 
durable, put a shallow channel on the bottom and a deep one on the top 
so you have it held more securely, but then just lift it out like you 
might remove a sliding window or patio door.

In my case, I will probably use Peter's reply at my house with a thin 
sheet of exterior grade plywood (coastal California, exposed to the 
weather).  I have an access door to under the house that is 2' wide by 
4' tall, also an expensive custom size.  The existing door is an 
interior hollow core door slab, poorly cut down, that was laying in the 
dirt when we moved in.  About a dozen screws have it sort of working, 
but a new door is needed.  If you go this route, I second the 
recommendation for two doors, 3' for most of the time and a 1' door or 
panel you can remove when you need the full width.

Brian

Doug Braun wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My basement (pretty conventional 70's construction) has a set of steps going out to the back yard, which are topped with a set of "Bilco" steel doors.  They keep the rain out just fine, but they are pretty drafty and chilly in the winter.  I was thinking of installing an insulated door at the bottom of the steps.  The problem is that there is no built-in door frame, and the opening is about 4 feet wide by 7 feet high, and I have never seen doors of this shape being sold.
>
> Has anybody ever seen a pre-built (or made-to-order) door that would be suitable?  Or would have to build the door frame and the door itself from scratch?  Looks, security, and weather resistance are not important, just sealing and insulating ability.
>
> I guess I could build up something from lumber and plywood, but I am worried that it wold take a couple of iterations to get something that works reasonably well, is mechanically sound, and doesn't scream "Home Depot weekend project"...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jan 14 19:31:51 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 07:01:51 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001142122510.85275@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <OF8756EE96.3F6FDB63-ON642576AC.000E3588-642576AC.000E564A@mail.megageek.com>

HUM, I don't know why my link got so messed up in the final message?

Thanks for posting the correct link.  (But I'm sure you just liked the 
excuse to visit their website.)  8>)

BTW, I don't have any share in TSS.  It's just a great store!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
01/15/2010 06:52

To
Shop-Talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?






On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> <javascript:wcds.loggerClickThrough(0, 0, 'iphrase bundle name',
> 
'/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=48028&storeId=10551&catalogId=10001&langId=-1'>

    Link obviously no good... try ->

http://www.tractorsupply.com/home-improvement/hardware/door-hardware/rails-hangers/round-rail-hanger-600-pound-capacity-per-pair-flexible-with-door-strap-3542035



--
  David Hillman
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jan 14 19:49:59 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 07:19:59 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scary Welder
Message-ID: <OF104C0DDA.F6633CD9-ON642576AC.000FE2BF-642576AC.000FFF32@mail.megageek.com>

I just posted a new blog entry on a local that was welding for us.  It's a 
pretty scary site how some people work everyday of their lives.

Here is a link...

http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2009afg.nsf

(Note, I hope this link works.)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Jan 14 20:19:02 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:19:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <149849.77178.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <149849.77178.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B4FDEA6.7020101@comcast.net>

On 1/14/2010 4:28 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
> That's starting to look like the plan.  A local building supply place said that a pre-framed door for a 48" opening could be custom-made, but it would be about $350.
>
> The harderr part of the project is making a solid, square frame that is properly attached to the cement walls.  I also have to deal with the fact that there is a step where the door is supposed to go, so the sill (if any) might be tricky.
>
> Doug
>    
You can purchase a frame.  The ones I've seen come as a kit as three 
pieces.  Just plumb the hing side of the frame, hang the door, then fit 
the rest of the frame to the door.

Peter T.


> --- On Thu, 1/14/10, Peter J. Thomas<pj_thomas at comcast.net>  wrote:
>
>    
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>        
>> You can make a door fairly easily yourself using
>> construction lumber, two sheets of 1/4 luan plywood and some
>> rigid foam.  Cut the two sheets of luan to the size of
>> the door you want.   Lay one sheet down on a
>> flat surface.  Gut and glue lumber to go around the
>> perimeter.  Infill with rigid foam, and finally glue
>> the second sheet of luan on.   This is a
>> stress skin panel door and is the same construction as flat
>> 1970's interior hollow core doors except instead of being
>> filled with corrugated cardboard you're using ridge foam.
>>
>> Peter Thomas

From opposumking at verizon.net  Fri Jan 15 04:35:49 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:35:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scary Welder
References: <OF104C0DDA.F6633CD9-ON642576AC.000FE2BF-642576AC.000FFF32@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <F6554A47976F4E16BE09A45A1B16AE6F@mde.state.md.us>

My favorite site for various stupid and dangerous practices is
http://safetycenter.navy.mil/PHOTO/index.asp

They have some duzies.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:49 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scary Welder


>I just posted a new blog entry on a local that was welding for us.  It's a
> pretty scary site how some people work everyday of their lives.
>
> Here is a link...
>
> http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2009afg.nsf

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan 15 07:27:09 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:27:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <OF30868724.2F4A11AE-ON642576AC.0008FA04-642576AC.00099EDC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <842481.81846.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, I enjoy visiting a TS store, especially since one opened near Flemington,
about 30 minutes from my home.  It is the only nearby place I know that sells
sandblasting media.  They also sell electric cattle prods, which could be
helpful in getting the kids out of bed on school mornings.

Doug

--- On Thu,
1/14/10, eric at megageek.com <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> From:
eric at megageek.com <eric at megageek.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped
door?
> To: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Thursday,
January 14, 2010, 8:40 PM
> Ok, go to your local Tractor Supply
> Store* (or
equivalent). Stare at all 
> the cool things for about an hour.  (doesn't
anyone
> else do that?)

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan 15 07:34:08 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:34:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <4B4FD206.4070107@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <749112.85070.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I was thinking of doing that as a sort of beta test, to see how much warmer
the basement would become.  Instead I simply duct-taped a piece of tarp over
the opening, and a day later it was quite a bit warmer.

One complication is
that the opening is sort of irregular at the top corners, and some sort of
framing would be needed to get a good seal all the way around.  I noticed that
the tarp bulges inward from the cold air trying to get in, so the door must
seal pretty well to avoid drafts.

Doug

--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Brian Kemp
<bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net>
>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
> To: "Doug Braun"
<doug at dougbraun.com>, "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date:
Thursday, January 14, 2010, 9:25 PM
> Doug - If you don't need to actually
>
regularly use it as a door, how about just trimming down a
> sheet of 4x8 foam
insulation board to be a pressure fit in
> the opening?  See 416989 or 270895
at homedepot.com for
> an example.  It can sit there most of the time and when
> you need to use the door, just pop it out.  If
> paintable, put a coat of
paint on it and it can look just
> like the wall.  If you want to make it a
bit more
> durable, put a shallow channel on the bottom and a deep one
> on
the top so you have it held more securely, but then just
> lift it out like
you might remove a sliding window or patio
> door.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jan 15 08:10:17 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:10:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
References: <842481.81846.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <81B03E90A08C440599070D0F5D98F14F@KARL>

If you're impressed by Tractor Supply, you'd love Farm & Fleet.  4 or 5 
Ttractor Supply stores would fit into one Farm & Fleet.  Lots more of 
everything.

Karl


> Yes, I enjoy visiting a TS store, especially since one opened near 
> Flemington,
> about 30 minutes from my home.  It is the only nearby place I know that 
> sells
> sandblasting media.  They also sell electric cattle prods, which could be
> helpful in getting the kids out of bed on school mornings.
>
> Doug

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sat Jan 16 09:10:27 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:10:27 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford's snow tractor - 1926 silent film
Message-ID: <E4AD9E9E213F48229A476308D3A9A4D8@KARL>

Some pretty neat engineering.  I wonder if they ever sold any of these ?  I
want one for the Model T - imagine driving through town with this !!

This is a really interesting 1926 silent film of a snow-machine attachment for
the Fordson tractor, invented by Henry Ford, who is the driver in the film.

Later in the video he also drives a Chevrolet converted with the same
attachment.


 http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,213971.0/topicseen.html

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Jan 16 09:59:40 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:59:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Odd-shaped door?
In-Reply-To: <81B03E90A08C440599070D0F5D98F14F@KARL>
References: <842481.81846.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<81B03E90A08C440599070D0F5D98F14F@KARL>
Message-ID: <COL115-W6245D75A20CD3F4C3BE9B9CC680@phx.gbl>

What about one of the clear plastic 'drapes' that you frequently find in
warehouses?  I don't know the proper name for these, but I am talking about
the kind that are made up of multiple overlapping vertical strips of heavy
vinyl that hang across a doorway.  Something like this would be easy to trim
to fit.  It would also be very easy to make your own, if you could find a
source for such heavy duty vinyl.

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sat Jan 16 16:39:02 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:39:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rubber surface for motorcycle trailer ramp?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 14, 2010, at 4:07 PM, David Hillman wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
>> I have a small dirt bike that has ice screws in the tires. I'm  
>> looking for a rubber-type material to keep the tires from sliding  
>> around on the metal trailer ramp. I'm on my way to Lowes to look at  
>> their ice & water shield for roofing, but it may be too tar- 
>> impregnanted, or may have an aluminum backing like the Home Depot  
>> brand.
>>
>> Any suggestions on a suitable material? Peel and stick to metal is  
>> required, and a 6" pre-cut width would be really nice. Carpet would  
>> work but might stink after a few months. Grit-based tape will wear  
>> down the ice screws.
>
>   How many hundred-thousand times are you going to load and unload  
> the bike?  Less than 5, and I don't think you have to worry about  
> wearing down the screws, do you?  I have a set of car tires with  
> probably-similar
> screws ( Kold Kutters ) and they've suffered no ill effects from a  
> lot of rolling around on pavement and concrete ( under a 2100 pound  
> car ) and metal trailer floor.

The integrity of the screw's edge is far more critical on a 2 wheeler  
than a 4 wheeler. Plus, it will need some bite while actually on the  
trailer.

>
>   I have some tape at home that I think would work great.  I can't  
> remember what it's called but it's some kind of rubberized asphalt  
> in a 4" wide stick-on tape.  If you aren't dead-set against that  
> sort of tape, I'll check tonight and see what it is called.  If you  
> are dead-set against that, I don't know what else is going to peel- 
> and-stick to (cold) metal. We used this tape to replace the interior  
> carpet in the ice-racer, and it worked great.

Yes, that's sorta what I'm after, but thick enough to provide cision  
against the metal. So 1/8" thick woul dbe ideal, but 1/16" could work  
if it was stiff enough.

>
>   Are you driving the bike in, or walking it?  I think you'll tear  
> up carpet in no time if the former.  I know I left tracks in my  
> asphalt driveway with my studded tires, and that was just very slow  
> moves in and out of the garage and trailer.

Definitely walking. I don't know anyone with the testicular fortitude  
to ride a bike onto a trailer except on episodes of Hold My Beer. :-)

jim

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Jan 16 17:23:50 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:23:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rubber surface for motorcycle trailer ramp?
In-Reply-To: <B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org><alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <5B05710718804768B298DC8597B16EDC@EricJRussellPC>

How about gluing down some rubber floor tiles or door mats (the kind one 
puts by the back door to keep mud outa the house)?

>   Are you driving the bike in...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZo33y7w0Wk

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell 

From shop at justbrits.com  Sat Jan 16 18:11:13 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:11:13 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rubber surface for motorcycle trailer ramp?
In-Reply-To: <5B05710718804768B298DC8597B16EDC@EricJRussellPC>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org><alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<5B05710718804768B298DC8597B16EDC@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <4B5263B1.3080807@justbrits.com>

That's the HARD way.....

<< Are you driving the bike in...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZo33y7w0Wk >>


to get in the Driver's seat methinks, Eric !!!!

OUCH <VBG> !!!!!

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sat Jan 16 18:20:50 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:20:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Aluminum
References: <5BCDCE03DFC64EC5A391EFE0D46C111A@mini>
Message-ID: <06B919F8EB3E48A7BFE7D832CA75D142@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, Bob,

    Sure don't remember seeing any replies to your email.  Unfortunately I 
can only hazard the opinion that this would be a bad idea.  That old 
dissimilar metals issue sprang to mind when I read your email.  Is there any 
corrosion on the steel?  Does it look like it had some sort of corrosion 
protection on it?  Could you use a high temperature finish on the steel to 
protect it if you do end up welding it?  Eastwood has: 
http://www.eastwood.com/ew-silver-hi-temp-paint-pint.html though it's "only" 
good to 1200 deg F while pure AL has a melting point of around 1220 deg F 
(according to Wikipedia).  For some reason I seem to remember that aluminum 
alloys tend to have a higher melting point than pure AL though some web 
searching shows, if anything, the opposite.

    My guess is that the original manufacturer rolled the aluminum around 
the steel stiffening wire.  Any chance you could simulate the same thing?

    Curiosity compels me to ask: What vehicle is this a fender for?

    Good luck!

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' <-- long term resto project
1965 Ford Falcon <-- shorter term (I hope!) repair project
various other transportation pods


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <nogera2 at att.net>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:34 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Aluminum


> I'm doing some repairs on an aluminum fender. The edge of the fender is
> finished with a rolled wire edge. A couple of the cracks in the aluminum 
> are
> at the wire edge. I will be taking the fender to a shop to be welded. What 
> I
> would like to know is can the aluminum be welded with the wire in place or
> will the steel wire cause problems with welding the aluminum which is
> wrapped around the steel wire?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sun Jan 17 09:49:02 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 11:49:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>

    I picked up a new bathtub the other day, and am confused by one part of 
the installation document ( well, one part other than the math errors on 
certain dimensions ).

    The part I don't understand is why they emphasize not letting the tub's 
bottom contact the floor.  It's an American Standard Americast tub ( 
Americast is a "unique three-layer construction consisting of a smooth 
porcelain-enamel finish bound to high-quality alloy that is backed by an 
injection-molded structure" ).

    It doesn't make any sense to me that the required installation is to 
hang the tub ( 700 pounds full of water ) from the 2x4 stringers, instead 
of letting the floor share the load.  By following the directions, the 
entire weight of the tub will be supported by the nails through the 
stringers into the studs.  Here are those instructions, if anyone is 
curious;

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/documents/amstd/install/Install_349.pdf

    Why would it be bad to have the tub contacting the floor?  Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From shiples at comcast.net  Sun Jan 17 10:22:54 2010
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:22:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <5BCDCE03DFC64EC5A391EFE0D46C111A@mini>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100117085838.037c5778@mail.comcast.net>

At 03:34 PM 1/10/2010 -0600, nogera2 at att.net wrote:
>I'm doing some repairs on an aluminum fender. The edge of the fender is
>finished with a rolled wire edge. A couple of the cracks in the aluminum are
>at the wire edge. I will be taking the fender to a shop to be welded. What I
>would like to know is can the aluminum be welded with the wire in place or
>will the steel wire cause problems with welding the aluminum which is
>wrapped around the steel wire?

I didn't respond cause I don't know.... but I know who does....I used the 
Google.
    * You can e-mail your questions to Professor Hammer at covell at cruzio.com
I think he still writes a column for Street Rodder magazine.  He gives 
classes on
metalworking around the country at various locations.   As part of his 
class he
demonstrated how quickly a good metal man can take out a dent.  He took a big
hammer and put a few big dents in the fender of a 35 Ford and showed how 
quickly
he could dolly out the dent and file it smooth.  For someone who has smeared a
bunch of bondo, it was a revelation. I remember that there was someone in 
the basic
aluminum class who was working on an airplane which had a rolled edge and he
demonstrated that technique.It's been several years since I took a class 
but I remember
emailing a  question and getting a pretty decent answer.

http://www.covell.biz/

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Jan 17 10:34:07 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:34:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <E84FC14D-0159-4003-B968-10E10E21C747@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:49 AM, David Hillman wrote:

>   The part I don't understand is why they emphasize not letting the  
> tub's bottom contact the floor.  It's an American Standard Americast  
> tub ( Americast is a "unique three-layer construction consisting of  
> a smooth porcelain-enamel finish bound to high-quality alloy that is  
> backed by an injection-molded structure" ).

My guess would be the alloy will expand enough that there'd be stress  
on the screws at the rim if there was nowhere for the expansion to go.

>
>   It doesn't make any sense to me that the required installation is  
> to hang the tub ( 700 pounds full of water ) from the 2x4 stringers,  
> instead of letting the floor share the load.  By following the  
> directions, the entire weight of the tub will be supported by the  
> nails through the stringers into the studs.  Here are those  
> instructions, if anyone is curious;

The nails in stringers is plenty of support. It's no different than  
the nails that support the floor joists in the rim joist or girders.  
*You* could stand on a stringer supported with one 10d nail. Over 5'  
you'll have at least 4 doubly-nailed connections. It'll be fine.

jim

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Jan 17 10:47:33 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:47:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20100117085838.037c5778@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20100117085838.037c5778@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <72FD3B2B91954748A28DB55A5F563778@EricJRussellPC>

I don't know either. But there are some knowledgeable & talented folks on 
the forums at www.metalmeet.com

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell 

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sun Jan 17 11:25:26 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:25:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <E84FC14D-0159-4003-B968-10E10E21C747@groupwbench.org>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
	<E84FC14D-0159-4003-B968-10E10E21C747@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171251510.11173@itonami.pair.com>

On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
>>  The part I don't understand is why they emphasize not letting the tub's 
>> bottom contact the floor.  It's an American Standard Americast tub ( 
>> Americast is a "unique three-layer construction consisting of a smooth 
>> porcelain-enamel finish bound to high-quality alloy that is backed by an 
>> injection-molded structure" ).
>
> My guess would be the alloy will expand enough that there'd be stress on the 
> screws at the rim if there was nowhere for the expansion to go.

    Isn't it pretty unlikely that triple-layer construction described 
above can expand that much without a) cracking the porcelain finish or b) 
becoming unbonded?  Wouldn't all three materials have to expand at the 
same rate?

> The nails in stringers is plenty of support. It's no different than the nails 
> that support the floor joists in the rim joist or girders. *You* could stand 
> on a stringer supported with one 10d nail. Over 5' you'll have at least 4 
> doubly-nailed connections. It'll be fine.

    I'm not that worried about the strength, it just seems like the wrong 
way to go.  Hanging a tub?  Why?

--
  David Hillman

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 11:55:48 2010
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:55:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>

My guess is they don't want create stress points that could cause 
cracks.  If the floor is uneven the tub might eventually conform to the 
floor and the high points would be under stress and crack.  Just a 
guess.....

Ben....


On 1/17/2010 11:49 AM, David Hillman wrote:
>    I picked up a new bathtub the other day, and am confused by one 
> part of the installation document ( well, one part other than the math 
> errors on certain dimensions ).
>
>    The part I don't understand is why they emphasize not letting the 
> tub's bottom contact the floor.  It's an American Standard Americast 
> tub ( Americast is a "unique three-layer construction consisting of a 
> smooth porcelain-enamel finish bound to high-quality alloy that is 
> backed by an injection-molded structure" ).
>
>    It doesn't make any sense to me that the required installation is 
> to hang the tub ( 700 pounds full of water ) from the 2x4 stringers, 
> instead of letting the floor share the load.  By following the 
> directions, the entire weight of the tub will be supported by the 
> nails through the stringers into the studs.  Here are those 
> instructions, if anyone is curious;
>
> http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/documents/amstd/install/Install_349.pdf 
>
>
>    Why would it be bad to have the tub contacting the floor?  Thanks.
>
> -- 
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 12:08:01 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:08:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
	<4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001171108k7e7b3677k7c41702e1ae633ad@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Ben Zwissler <bjzwissler at gmail.com> wrote:

> My guess is they don't want create stress points that could cause cracks.
>  If the floor is uneven the tub might eventually conform to the floor and
> the high points would be under stress and crack.  Just a guess.....
>
> Ben....
>
>
It's also *much* easier to get a stringer level than a floor.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Jan 17 12:09:40 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:09:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
	<4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D2A2494-6707-4B03-9334-D4AABEBB2877@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 17, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Ben Zwissler wrote:

> My guess is they don't want create stress points that could cause  
> cracks.  If the floor is uneven the tub might eventually conform to  
> the floor and the high points would be under stress and crack.  Just  
> a guess.....
>
> Ben....


My Kohler drop-in non-whirlpool had 5 blocks cast into the fiberglass  
for support on the floor. The Kohler 3x4 shower pan did too, but the  
plumbers didn't bother supporting it. No issues with cracking after 5  
years.

Could it be a whirlpool-motor vibration transmission prevention tactic?

jim

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sun Jan 17 13:07:18 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:07:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <8D2A2494-6707-4B03-9334-D4AABEBB2877@groupwbench.org>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
	<4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>
	<8D2A2494-6707-4B03-9334-D4AABEBB2877@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171458550.95818@itonami.pair.com>

On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Could it be a whirlpool-motor vibration transmission prevention tactic?

    Possibly, since they do make a whirlpool version of the same tub.

Also Ben writes...
> My guess is they don't want create stress points that could cause 
> cracks.  If the floor is uneven the tub might eventually conform to the 
> floor and the high points would be under
> stress and crack.  Just a guess.....

    This makes sense... except that step 2 is to make sure the floor is 
level.  Obviously, it's a complete waste of time to level the floor if 
nothing is going to be touching it... which gets to my real concern with 
these installations notes.  I'm pretty sure whoever wrote them has no idea 
what they're talking about.  ( The top of the stringers are supposed to 13 
5/8" off the floor... or 18 3/4", depending on whether you trust the spec 
document or the install doc. )

--
  David Hillman

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sun Jan 17 14:02:03 2010
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:02:03 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] hanging a tub.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6809.1263754579.4175.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.6809.1263754579.4175.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <3C23E82885714ED09A7BB9DF770AF343@OFFICEPC>

I have an acrylic American Non-Standard tub.  Its instructions say it has to
be a full bottom contact install - I set it in a mortar base per these
instructions.

The cast tub does not because it will 'oilcan' if there is full bottom
contact.  It needs a bit of room when it expands and contracts with a full
load of hot water.  It isn't really bad for the tub but it freaks people out
and causes them to call their plumber, builder, or (even worse) the American
Standard customer support folks. 

The hanging install is on 5 studs on the long side and 3 one each short side
- 22 nails.  That's plenty of support, less than 40 pounds per nail.  If it
makes you nervous you can always double up on the studs and get more nails
in there, or mortise in a 3 x 4!

Mark Miller
Measure once, curse twice. 


<<<    I picked up a new bathtub the other day, and am confused by one part
of 
the installation document ( well, one part other than the math errors on 
certain dimensions ).

    The part I don't understand is why they emphasize not letting the tub's 
bottom contact the floor.  It's an American Standard Americast tub ( 
Americast is a "unique three-layer construction consisting of a smooth 
porcelain-enamel finish bound to high-quality alloy that is backed by an 
injection-molded structure" ).

    It doesn't make any sense to me that the required installation is to 
hang the tub ( 700 pounds full of water ) from the 2x4 stringers, instead 
of letting the floor share the load.  By following the directions, the 
entire weight of the tub will be supported by the nails through the 
stringers into the studs.  Here are those instructions, if anyone is 
curious;

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/documents/amstd/install/Install_34
9.pdf

    Why would it be bad to have the tub contacting the floor?  Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Jan 17 14:23:01 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:23:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I have a clean out that I want to remove, but its been in place for 60 
years or so:

Here's a picture:

http://www.maracing.com/misc/cleanout.JPG

It looks to me like the cleanout plug is threaded into a fitting that's 
then perhaps leaded into the Y fitting.  If that's right, I'm afraid to 
heat up the fitting with a torch to get it to loosen up.

But I'm the typical DIY person with no real experience.

Anyone know what I should do to get the cleanout plug out?

If you're curious, here's the whole story...

Our hose has a septic system.  We've got two 1k gallon tanks, then a pump 
that pumps the liquid that comes out of the second tank to a leech field 
out behind the house.

Today, my wife noticed that the toilets were bubbling in the bowl which 
the washing machine drained, and then the washing machine drain overflowed 
a bit before she got it shut off.  The drain pipe has the washing machine 
at the end, then a bathroom (toilet/show/sink drains), then a bit of a run 
to another bathroom (toilet/sink/shower), then a run out of the house 
where it meets another drain pipe coming off the kitchen (under a concrete 
slab, which I desperately hope won't matter), then a run to the first 
1k gallon septic tank, then a short run to the 2nd 1k gallon septic tank, 
then a short run to the pump which pumps all the way around the house to 
the leech field.

We had the septic tanks pumped this summer (after about five years of use 
since they were last cleaned) and the guy said they looked great.

The pump has an alarm on it and its showing green.  When it was first 
installed (five years ago, the alarm worked.  I also went out and pulled 
open the top cover on the pump and I could hear water trickling in, but 
couldn't see anything beyond that (presumably the pump and well itself is 
under another cover at the bottom of that hole).

In playing around, I initially thought I had a partial / mostly blockage 
on the main line that has the two bathrooms and the washer, after the 
second bathroom described above (the one closest to the final Y under the 
concrete patio).  The shower in that bathroom had water/crap in it, and 
when I flushed the toilet, the water bubbled in the shower.  However, when 
I ran the kitchen sink, I didn't get anything happening.  If I waited a 
good while (1/2 hour or more), the water level in the tub would drop to 
nothing.

There's a cleanout on the small pipe that gets the 2nd bathroom's sinks, 
so I took that out and then ran a sewer rod (flat 1/2" or so steel tape 
with an arrowhead on the end) in there a good ways.  My guess is that it 
went all the way to the Y under the concrete.  It fought me a little near 
the toilet drain, so I thought maybe that was the breakage.  Put the 
cleanout back in and ran the shower for a long while and it was good for 
quite a while, but then the toilet started bubbling.  Additionally, this 
time I ran the kitchen sink (on the other side of the Y under the concrete 
patio) with the bathroom cleanout out and after a long while (10 minutes?) 
water came out of the bathroom cleanout.

So now I'm thinking that the blockage is after the Y under the concrete 
(or I moved it there).  And I want to remove the cleanout plug above 
because that's a straight shot all the way to the septic tank.

Which led me to the question above.

Of course, I'm no particular expert here, so if I'm missing something, I'd 
surely appreciate the help!

Mark

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jan 17 14:43:32 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:43:32 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171458550.95818@itonami.pair.com>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
	<4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>
	<8D2A2494-6707-4B03-9334-D4AABEBB2877@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171458550.95818@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4B538484.9040305@hornesystemstx.com>

Sounds like it is time to call American Standard and get their opinion. 
I would probably call several times to be sure the information they are 
giving out is correct. They can possibly send you a copy of another 
installation document that matches what they are telling you.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David Hillman, On 1/17/2010 2:07 PM:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
>> Could it be a whirlpool-motor vibration transmission prevention tactic?
>
>    Possibly, since they do make a whirlpool version of the same tub.
>
> Also Ben writes...
>> My guess is they don't want create stress points that could cause 
>> cracks.  If the floor is uneven the tub might eventually conform to 
>> the floor and the high points would be under
>> stress and crack.  Just a guess.....
>
>    This makes sense... except that step 2 is to make sure the floor is 
> level.  Obviously, it's a complete waste of time to level the floor if 
> nothing is going to be touching it... which gets to my real concern 
> with these installations notes.  I'm pretty sure whoever wrote them 
> has no idea what they're talking about.  ( The top of the stringers 
> are supposed to 13 5/8" off the floor... or 18 3/4", depending on 
> whether you trust the spec document or the install doc. )
>
> -- 
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jan 17 14:43:27 2010
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:43:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <0KWE009TBV28JR00@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

These guys seem to think a hammer and chisel is the best plan B:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/680179/how_to_remove_and_replace_drain_cleanout.html?cat=6

Not sure if this is the best way to go for yours.  Can you tell what 
the various parts are made of?

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 04:23 PM 1/17/2010, Mark Andy wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>I have a clean out that I want to remove, but its been in place for 
>60 years or so:

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Jan 17 16:12:11 2010
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:12:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
Message-ID: <BB8EACB1402242D1A1B70935AA4B8414@niolon>

thinking about ATT's new combined package for phone/internet/hdtv  which 
will affect my shop computer/tv (shop content)

anyone have any experience, comments, complaints, blatant advertising.... 
can save quite a few bucks over individual vendors... if the advertisements 
are really true afa quality and speed...

thanks
john




'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant;
it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'

 -Ronald Reagan

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 17 16:27:57 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:27:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <4B538484.9040305@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <AE.C0.19578.DFC935B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

That's the way they are supposed to be installed.  I can't explain why, but
every one I've looked at said to do it that way.

My impression is that the tub is designed to deform under the stress of the
water plus occupant; and the bottom can't handle the total stress.  It has
to be hung or risk breaking at the bottom.  But that's just a WAG.

Randall

From herby at herbytoys.com  Sun Jan 17 17:09:09 2010
From: herby at herbytoys.com (Herby)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:09:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <BB8EACB1402242D1A1B70935AA4B8414@niolon>
Message-ID: <777551490DFA41DB96987D35FE449B13@HERBYZ>

Had the Uverse U200 package installed with Elite (6 Mbps) internet and
unlimited phone in April 09. HD channels but no premium channels (HBO, SHO,
etc.). Install went great. We did have a minor glitch in the order. They
only supplied the DVR box and not the other 3 standard boxes. All was
corrected the same day. They came back later in the week to install a new
incoming line to the house. Has worked almost flawlessly since. Only 1
instance of no signal (TV only) that lasted about 2 hours. HD looks and
works great. You can only record 2 HD programs at once though you really can
record 4 SD shows at once.

Have not had a problem with the internet service or VOIP phone service. The
power went out once for about 5 hours and the battery backup kept it all
going. Phone and internet were still usable although I didn't turn on the
TV. Internet download speed is faster then my work T1 (1.5 Mbps). Wireless
signal works well to as far as my backyard and garage (the only areas I've
tried). Speed tests through my wireless show from 3 Mbps (to east coast) up
to 5.7 Mbps (west coast) download and 1 Mbps upload on both. My wife's
computer is hard wired and runs 5.5 to 5.9 Mbps and 1 Mbps all the time.

Monthly cost came to about $20 more than basic Comcast, AT&T local phone,
AT&T Express DSL (1.5 Mbps) and Sprint long distance. Maybe we've been
luckier than others but we're happy we made the switch.

Oh yeah, we're only 150 ft from the VRAD.

herby at herbytoys.com

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:12 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse

thinking about ATT's new combined package for phone/internet/hdtv  which 
will affect my shop computer/tv (shop content)

anyone have any experience, comments, complaints, blatant advertising.... 
can save quite a few bucks over individual vendors... if the advertisements 
are really true afa quality and speed...

thanks
john




'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant;
it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'

 -Ronald Reagan

From shop at justbrits.com  Sun Jan 17 17:27:57 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:27:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drop-in tub install question
In-Reply-To: <4B538484.9040305@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <A548F98E-D4FE-41E8-AB33-C7847294982B@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001141553450.30197@itonami.pair.com>
	<B7DF5C7A-5E0F-43BB-95E7-7019CB2B5254@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171129030.11173@itonami.pair.com>
	<4B535D34.7060102@gmail.com>
	<8D2A2494-6707-4B03-9334-D4AABEBB2877@groupwbench.org>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001171458550.95818@itonami.pair.com>
	<4B538484.9040305@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4B53AB0D.6050506@justbrits.com>

<< Sounds like it is time to call American Standard and get their 
opinion. >>

I 2nd & 3rd & 4th the above <G> !!!!

To top the "Instructions" one would HAVE to be SURE
that ALL nails are 'installed' with point at SOME down-
ward angle <VBG> !!! 

Ed

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Jan 17 17:32:59 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:32:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <97BDD0170FC74CB984C43C933B10F901@EricJRussellPC>

The cast iron can 'take the heat' but I'd be wary if there are any joints 
nearby. In the olden days the joints were often packed with a fibre material 
and then lead was poured into the space above the fibre stuff.

I would assume the nub on the top of the cleanout is for a pipe wrench. A 
pipe wrench has teeth to bite and hold onto the item being wrenched upon. 
Some penetrating oil applied an hour or a day before attempting to remove 
might help. I like PB Blaster. Kroil is another well regarded product. A big 
pipe wrench has the advantage of more leverage.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy"

> I have a clean out that I want to remove, but its been in place for 60
> years or so:

From shop at justbrits.com  Sun Jan 17 17:39:48 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:39:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4B53ADD4.10308@justbrits.com>

1st, I am NOT any sort of 'expert' with 'black' pipe.

2nd, that said what I would try is a soak with "Busty" [MY
favorite & not just because I sell it <G>], Kroil, PBBLaster
what-ever.  SEVERAL time & FOAM it on so that it REALLY
WORKS !!  Then using TWO [2] people pipe wrench on the
big pipe just to hold it from any sort of 'turning'.  2nd
pipe wrench [fitting 'looks' round ?!?] in the TIGHTEN
direction;  give end of wrench a sharp but not to heavily
smack on the end.  RE-SOAK with the penetrating fluid
[foam it on].  Go have cocktail/brew and then RE-soak.
Cocktail/brew and apply 2nd pipe-wrench to the 'nipple'
in the UN-do direction and give sharp rap to end of wrench.
REPEAT above several time until the 'nipple' begins to
turn easily.

Just do NOT rush the 'steps' above.  The ONLY lose I
have had using this method in around 30 decades was a 3"
bolt that went thru a 2.5" aluminum 'spacer' on an
alternator install [original install] on a Chev. 350cid motor.

Dis-similar metals WON <VBG> !!!!

YMMV & FWIW & FYI & etc., etc., etc. !!

Ed

From shop at justbrits.com  Sun Jan 17 17:47:28 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:47:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <777551490DFA41DB96987D35FE449B13@HERBYZ>
References: <777551490DFA41DB96987D35FE449B13@HERBYZ>
Message-ID: <4B53AFA0.7070004@justbrits.com>

Yo Herby !!! <G>

<< Sprint long distance. >>

Do NOT know about that but I can flat state that
ever since I found about - and now USE ALL the
time - using 1010220 'service' knocks the price of
L.D. right to the cellar !!!!

I was just plain DAZZLED with 1st Bill and I do a
fair amount of L.D. calling for business !!!!

GREAT thing; that 1010220

Ed

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jan 17 18:42:39 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:12:39 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <BB8EACB1402242D1A1B70935AA4B8414@niolon>
Message-ID: <OFC590CB3B.CAD2FE7B-ON642576AF.00096538-642576AF.0009D47A@mail.megageek.com>

My first thought is to make sure that their rate isn't for an 
"Introductory period."  Many times, they get you to switch everything, 
then they hit you with an increase after a year. By then it's too much 
hassle to switch back.

This is one reason I like to keep separate providers.  I get a little 
nervous when you start relying on one company too much.  Plus, it's much 
easier to get a better deal with your existing companies.  All you do is 
call them and say... "I was thinking of switch to AT&T, do you have any 
deals that you can offer me to stay with you?"  9 times out of 10, they 
do! (Note, it may not be the first person you talk to.  If they say they 
don't, then try the, "OK, I'd like to close my account."  Normally the 
person they transfer you to has plenty of good offers to keep you.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



"john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
01/18/2010 03:43

To
"shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] u-verse






thinking about ATT's new combined package for phone/internet/hdtv  which 
will affect my shop computer/tv (shop content)

anyone have any experience, comments, complaints, blatant advertising.... 
can save quite a few bucks over individual vendors... if the 
advertisements 
are really true afa quality and speed...

thanks
john




'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant;
it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'

 -Ronald Reagan
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jan 17 18:53:42 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:53:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4B53BF26.3050207@hornesystemstx.com>

Mark,

One of the worst think you can do with old cast iron pipe is break it 
loose so you have to tear out the wall or concrete to repair it. The 
joints in cast iron pipe, as pointed out by someone else is made up of a 
bell end and a straight end on the pipe. After inserting the straight 
part into the bell Oakum (a tarred fiber, rope-looking item) is pounded 
in to seal the joint. After that molten lead is poured in to seal the 
joint. If you flex the joint at all, the lead will let go, possibly 
giving you a leak.

The way most professionals deal with this kind of thing (as well as cast 
iron radiator plugs and fittings) is to drill out the center of the 
plug, then enlarge the hole until you can get a Sawzall blade in. Then 
cut almost to the edge of the plug in 2 or 3 places. Next, use a cold 
chisel to break out the pieces of the cap. Be careful to not cut into 
the threaded part the cap is screwed into.

I have not done this myself, but have seen it done on very old (80+ year 
old) fittings without a problem. I tried the pipe wrench trick on a well 
pressure tank fitting that was only 20 years old and broke the tank with 
the plug not coming loose at all!

BTW, they do not use lead and oakum any more, all joints are now rubber 
couplings and hose clamps, which go on straight pipe without bells. If 
you break a joint loose you may have to do more work to repair than the 
time it will take you to cut the plug out.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Mark Andy, On 1/17/2010 3:23 PM:
> Howdy,
>
> I have a clean out that I want to remove, but its been in place for 60 
> years or so:
>
> Here's a picture:
>
> http://www.maracing.com/misc/cleanout.JPG
>
> It looks to me like the cleanout plug is threaded into a fitting 
> that's then perhaps leaded into the Y fitting.  If that's right, I'm 
> afraid to heat up the fitting with a torch to get it to loosen up.
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Jan 17 19:49:10 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:49:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <4B53BF26.3050207@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001171605400.27270@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4B53BF26.3050207@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001172147240.1079@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

So, it turns out the cleanout plug was fairly thin brass.

A 2' pipe wrench on it broke the hex off, so I used a sawzall / cold 
chisel / hammer to remove it.

However, the bigger issue was that even after running a sewer tape out 
through the pipe, I still have the problem. The sewer tape may not have 
been quite long enough to get to the septic tank however? IIRC it was a 
40' tape and the tank is probably 45 or perhaps 50' out there. Still, I 
thought I was home because the sewer tape definitely ran into some minor 
obstructions. I also ran a hose for a quite a while (a couple minutes?) 
down the line after I ran the sewer tape in there a few times and twisted 
it around and such and got nothing headed back towards me.

So, I dunno what's next. I'm pretty much ready to call someone that does 
this for a living, but it seems like either the problem is that I didn't 
snake the line enough (i.e. I should get a power snake and run it a long 
way out there) or that there's something wrong with the septic tank and/or 
pump, even though the pump monitor says its fine.

One worry I have with a power snake is that I know that under our patio 
they replaced a section of metal pipe with plastic with those rubber femco 
(??) connectors on either side... I dunno if power snakes are rough enough 
for that to be a problem.

Anyway. Yay being a homeowner.  We're off to a hotel.

Mark

From pethier at comcast.net  Sun Jan 17 19:58:46 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:58:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001172147240.1079@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <663815537.12956031263783526303.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

It's time to call someone with a sewer camera to give your system a look.  Yellow pages should have a section for "Sewer Inspection".  Be sure they shoot in color, have a method for recording distances (either electronic onscreen or they talk into a microphone reading marks off the cable), and leave you a video disk.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

> From: "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com>
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:49:10 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
>
> Howdy,
> 
> So, it turns out the cleanout plug was fairly thin brass.
> 
> A 2' pipe wrench on it broke the hex off, so I used a sawzall / cold 
> chisel / hammer to remove it.
> 
> However, the bigger issue was that even after running a sewer tape out
> 
> through the pipe, I still have the problem. The sewer tape may not
> have 
> been quite long enough to get to the septic tank however? IIRC it was
> a 
> 40' tape and the tank is probably 45 or perhaps 50' out there. Still,
> I 
> thought I was home because the sewer tape definitely ran into some
> minor 
> obstructions. I also ran a hose for a quite a while (a couple
> minutes?) 
> down the line after I ran the sewer tape in there a few times and
> twisted 
> it around and such and got nothing headed back towards me.
> 
> So, I dunno what's next. I'm pretty much ready to call someone that
> does 
> this for a living, but it seems like either the problem is that I
> didn't 
> snake the line enough (i.e. I should get a power snake and run it a
> long 
> way out there) or that there's something wrong with the septic tank
> and/or 
> pump, even though the pump monitor says its fine.
> 
> One worry I have with a power snake is that I know that under our
> patio 
> they replaced a section of metal pipe with plastic with those rubber
> femco 
> (??) connectors on either side... I dunno if power snakes are rough
> enough 
> for that to be a problem.
> 
> Anyway. Yay being a homeowner.  We're off to a hotel.
> 
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Jan 18 09:47:19 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:47:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <BB8EACB1402242D1A1B70935AA4B8414@niolon>
References: <BB8EACB1402242D1A1B70935AA4B8414@niolon>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001181119200.11845@itonami.pair.com>

On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, john niolon wrote:
> thinking about ATT's new combined package for phone/internet/hdtv  which
> will affect my shop computer/tv (shop content)
>
> anyone have any experience, comments, complaints, blatant advertising....
> can save quite a few bucks over individual vendors... if the advertisements
> are really true afa quality and speed...

    I have no experience yet, but we're supposed to have it installed this 
Friday.  A pair of door-to-door salesmen came by last weekend when I was 
out, and talked my wife into buying it.  It sounds like a decent deal, but 
I'm still not sold and may yet cancel.  One nice thing is that there is 
basically no contract, you can cancel at any time without penalty.

    We currently have a goofy setup; a DirecTV dish on the roof for TV, and 
Comcast cable for Internet access ( although we get a package from Comcast 
which includes basic cable, because that's cheaper than standalone 
Broadband, go figure. )  I love the Comcast Broadband, to be honest.  It 
is stupid-fast ( 20+ mb/s ) and has been mostly reliable.  One of my 
biggest concerns with Uverse is that the salesguy assured my wife the 6 mb 
package would be way faster than whatever we have now.  That's obviously 
unlikely.  According to AT&T's chart, in order to approach the speed I 
have now, it's going to cost about $10-15 more a month versus Comcast.

    Another issue with U-verse is that I just upgraded to a wireless N 
router, and am very happy with the additional speed and range.  From what 
I've read, it is a complete nightmare to use your own router in addition 
to the AT&T 'Residential Gateway' ( combination wireless G router, and TV 
hub ), so that means I'd have to downgrade there, too.

    The other question marks are wiring.  U-verse is delivered via fiber to 
your local neighborhood box, and then standard twisted-pair copper into 
your house.  I can't figure out how that can work, first of all, and the 
copper into my house is known to be in bad shape ( ditched the landline 
phone a while back ).  Also, the U-verse installation takes "5-8 hours" 
because they need to run co-ax from your phone box to your RG location, 
and then co-ax from there to all TV locations in the house ( up to 3, I 
think for free ).  We only have 1 TV, but that run is going to be a pain 
because there's no access.  From what I've read, they often can't finish 
the install in a single day.  They are talking about going wireless from 
set-top box to RG in the future, apparently to reduce the installation 
hassle.

    For me, the only real selling point is the DVR, because even though we 
have a couple hundred channels from DirecTV, there's rarely anything 
watchable when I want to watch.  My wife also likes the idea of AT&T 
On Demand, because DTV pay-per-view is pathetic, and DTV signal does get 
spotty in heavy weather.

    I'd be interested to hear other comments before Friday ;)

--
  David Hillman

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Mon Jan 18 12:31:59 2010
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:31:59 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001181119200.11845@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <C779F72F.5FD5%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Out of curiosity, why aren't you doing all this with Comcast? We have
TV/Broadband/phone. My wife just worked it over and got the total bill down
to $175/mo. We don't watch a lot of television. We haven't looked at
alternatives. We haven't had much trouble and service has been OK (Ann
Arbor). 
Brian K


On 1/18/10 8:47 AM, "David Hillman" <hillman at planet-torque.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, john niolon wrote:
>> thinking about ATT's new combined package for phone/internet/hdtv  which
>> will affect my shop computer/tv (shop content)
>> 
>> anyone have any experience, comments, complaints, blatant advertising....
>> can save quite a few bucks over individual vendors... if the advertisements
>> are really true afa quality and speed...
> 
>     I have no experience yet, but we're supposed to have it installed this
> Friday.  A pair of door-to-door salesmen came by last weekend when I was
> out, and talked my wife into buying it.  It sounds like a decent deal, but
> I'm still not sold and may yet cancel.  One nice thing is that there is
> basically no contract, you can cancel at any time without penalty.
> 
>     We currently have a goofy setup; a DirecTV dish on the roof for TV, and
> Comcast cable for Internet access ( although we get a package from Comcast
> which includes basic cable, because that's cheaper than standalone
> Broadband, go figure. )  I love the Comcast Broadband, to be honest.  It
> is stupid-fast ( 20+ mb/s ) and has been mostly reliable.  One of my
> biggest concerns with Uverse is that the salesguy assured my wife the 6 mb
> package would be way faster than whatever we have now.  That's obviously
> unlikely.  According to AT&T's chart, in order to approach the speed I
> have now, it's going to cost about $10-15 more a month versus Comcast.
> 
>     Another issue with U-verse is that I just upgraded to a wireless N
> router, and am very happy with the additional speed and range.  From what
> I've read, it is a complete nightmare to use your own router in addition
> to the AT&T 'Residential Gateway' ( combination wireless G router, and TV
> hub ), so that means I'd have to downgrade there, too.
> 
>     The other question marks are wiring.  U-verse is delivered via fiber to
> your local neighborhood box, and then standard twisted-pair copper into
> your house.  I can't figure out how that can work, first of all, and the
> copper into my house is known to be in bad shape ( ditched the landline
> phone a while back ).  Also, the U-verse installation takes "5-8 hours"
> because they need to run co-ax from your phone box to your RG location,
> and then co-ax from there to all TV locations in the house ( up to 3, I
> think for free ).  We only have 1 TV, but that run is going to be a pain
> because there's no access.  From what I've read, they often can't finish
> the install in a single day.  They are talking about going wireless from
> set-top box to RG in the future, apparently to reduce the installation
> hassle.
> 
>     For me, the only real selling point is the DVR, because even though we
> have a couple hundred channels from DirecTV, there's rarely anything
> watchable when I want to watch.  My wife also likes the idea of AT&T
> On Demand, because DTV pay-per-view is pathetic, and DTV signal does get
> spotty in heavy weather.
> 
>     I'd be interested to hear other comments before Friday ;)
> 
> --
>   David Hillman
> _

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Jan 18 12:44:37 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:44:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <C779F72F.5FD5%kennedybc@comcast.net>
References: <C779F72F.5FD5%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001181440180.54294@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Brian Kennedy wrote:
> Out of curiosity, why aren't you doing all this with Comcast? We have
> TV/Broadband/phone. My wife just worked it over and got the total bill down
> to $175/mo. We don't watch a lot of television. We haven't looked at
> alternatives. We haven't had much trouble and service has been OK (Ann
> Arbor).

    This is a good point.  I haven't checked Comcast's current offers, but 
back when I switched to their broadband, they were not competitive with 
DirecTV on price and offerings.

    Also, my wife wants Versus back so she can watch MMA.  Seriously.  AT&T 
has Vs in an attractive package, and I don't know if Comcast does.

    At a minimum, I should probably call them and use the tactic mentioned 
a couple posts ago.

--
  David Hillman

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Jan 18 13:35:54 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:35:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <BB8EACB1402242D1A1B70935AA4B8414@niolon>
References: <BB8EACB1402242D1A1B70935AA4B8414@niolon>
Message-ID: <4B54C62A.1030303@comcast.net>

On 1/17/2010 6:12 PM, john niolon wrote:
> thinking about ATT's new combined package for phone/internet/hdtv  which
> will affect my shop computer/tv (shop content)
>
> anyone have any experience, comments, complaints, blatant advertising....
> can save quite a few bucks over individual vendors... if the advertisements
> are really true afa quality and speed...
>
> thanks
> john
>    
I have Comcast but considered UVerse.  Though its available in my area 
(SW CT); it's unavailble at my house.  Seems for UVerse/DSL to work you 
must be close enough to the phone company's hub.

If they offer it, then you are close enough, but there is a hitch.  
Speed varies with distance and just because you can get service does not 
mean you will get full speed service.  Make sure you get a guarantee on 
internet speed.  Before committing, make sure you get 6 Mbps and not UP 
TO 6 Mbps.

Peter Thomas


>
>
>
> 'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant;
> it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'
>
>   -Ronald Reagan
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From marka at maracing.com  Mon Jan 18 18:21:33 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:21:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <663815537.12956031263783526303.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <663815537.12956031263783526303.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001182020050.32351@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Called the pros. They opened up the cap on the septic tank (which I hadn't 
thought of doing) and verified that the tank wasn't over full, then snaked 
it from that side (power snake). $105 and took them maybe 20 minutes from 
the time they pulled into the driveway.

All is well. I think I was on the right path, but the sewer tape was too 
small/thin to really make much difference.

Got a replacement plastic cap screwed in the cleanout plug I busted out 
and cleaned up in the basement and theoretically I'm back to where I 
started on Sunday when I woke up. :-)

Thanks for the help/advice!

Mark

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Jan 18 18:40:10 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:40:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] can I safely heat up a black iron clean out?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001182020050.32351@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <663815537.12956031263783526303.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001182020050.32351@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100118203902.01c57d48@cox.net>

At 08:21 PM 1/18/2010, Mark Andy wrote:

 >Called the pros. They opened up the cap on the septic tank (which I hadn't
 >thought of doing) and verified that the tank wasn't over full, then 
snaked it from
 >that side (power snake). $105 and took them maybe 20 minutes from the time
 >they pulled into the driveway.

Mark,

As I was saying in my reply to you the other day, I had to call in the pros a
couple of times.  I hate when that happens. :)

Glad to hear it was fairly inexpensive, and quick.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jan 19 10:23:01 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:23:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>

[ Tried to send this yesterday, but it was too long. ]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> First off, that ?20mb? you get is a shared pipe from Comcast.

    People say this to me everytime I tell them how fast it is.  Is it shared, 
yeah.  Do I care since I can never tell?  No.  Maybe no one else in my 
neighborhood has found the Internet yet, but for whatever reason, I get all the 
bandwidth I can consume ( which is a lot ) from Comcast.

    For the record, I used to have satellite internet via DirecTV ( now sold 
under the Hughes brand name, those annoying ubiquitous commercials ). It was 
also blazingly fast for the first couple years... but obviously, I didn't have 
my own satellite.  Over time, it got slower and slower.  When I eventually 
called to complain, the support staff couldn't believe how fast it used to be. 
I sent them saved speed reports, and their 3rd-level folks accused me of 
somehow hotrodding my connection because it couldn't possibly be that fast. 
Unfortunately, I was never able to return to those halcyon days. I'm a few 
years into Comcast, though, and like I said, it's fantastic.

> DirecTV allowed me to NOT have to pay for the channels I don?t want.
> Granted it?s not 100% ala carte, but cable requires you to buy lesser
> packages to get better packages (as you are finding out with paying for
> cable TV to get internet.)

    Semantics maybe, but you could also say they are paying me to take basic 
cable, since the package price is less than the broadband price alone.  With 
DTV, I pay for about 12 channels I watch, and 400 that I can't even name. 
Their packages don't look different than cable, to me.

> DirecTV DVR is a Tivo clone (it used to be fully logo-ed TIVO.)  This
> means that you can HACK IT!!!

    This may be a good point, but it doesn't sound entertaining to me.  I 
generally get enough dorking-out at work.

> People that have problems losing signal during rain is because their dish
> is not properly set up.  Many times, the installers just place the dish in
> the ?easiest? location.  With a properly located dish, you will almost
> NEVER lose signal.

    Interesting.  I don't see how dish location can avoid weather interference, 
unless you have a really effing tall chimney ;)  Around here anyway, weather 
tends to fill the whole sky.  I would be interested to know how to improve the 
setup of my dish, which I did myself ( 3 times ).  Initially I put it on 
the end wall of the garage ( this would be your 'easiest location' ).  Even 
though the DTV guy's hand-held meter showed signal there, it wouldn't work at 
all (tree interference).  I moved it above the garage for about 8 years, and 
then last year when we re-did the siding, to a less-visible spot on the rear of 
the roof.  In both spots, the signal drops out during all summer thunderstorms, 
some heavy snow, and occasional dense fog.  A few times sticky snow had me out 
in the driveway with a long implement brushing the dish clean... if this 
happens again with the new location, I'm screwed until it warms up and melts.

> Now, I?m not familiar with the U-verse program, but I NEVER buy anything
> from a door to door pitch, PERIOD.  Also, I would be careful about having
> all your ?eggs? in one basket.

    I agree about the door-to-door, but we'll have two baskets.  AT&T and our 
cell phones.  We don't have a landline phone anyway.

> Finally they don?t require a contract because they know how hard it will
> be to switch back.  I would also look for ?installation fees? that are
> suddenly assessed if you cancel in a certain period of time.

    It shouldn't be hard to switch back at all, actually.  I will still have my 
dish on the roof, since I own it, and all that cabling will be intact.  They 
also won't be touching the Comcast cable, since Uverse comes in via the phone 
line.  A couple of phone calls, and waiting on the Comcast guy to come out and 
flip a switch at most.  No surprise installation fees in the contract they gave 
us.

    Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan 19 14:42:39 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 02:12:39 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <OF517001BE.63E9C707-ON642576B0.0077A76A-642576B0.0077B1AB@mail.megageek.com>

David asks?

>    Interesting.  I don't see how dish location can avoid weather
interference,
>unless you have a really effing tall chimney


The problem with most installations is that the dish is set on a pole,
which is extended from a flat (or pitched) surface.  This means that the
dish is effectively a tall sail in all windy conditions.  Over time, the
wind can move (albeit every slightly) in a direction.  Not to mention that
it vibrates the dish when it is windy.

Also, with nothing protecting if from above, it is open to all the
elements.  Placing it on the side of a building with a slight overhang
will do wonders.

Between these two factors, most of the problems can be eliminated.

(I thought I had a picture of my installation on my website, but I can?t
find it now.)

Seriously, it makes a world of difference.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
Waldo Emerson

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Jan 19 15:13:33 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:13:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <OF517001BE.63E9C707-ON642576B0.0077A76A-642576B0.0077B1AB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF517001BE.63E9C707-ON642576B0.0077A76A-642576B0.0077B1AB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B562E8D.60908@hornesystemstx.com>

I agree with Moose.  Another factor is how far North you live. The 
satellites you are getting signal from are over the equator, so the 
farther North you are, the less signal there is. It also needs a more 
precise aiming that it does farther South.

I haven't looked in to how the lower angle to the satellite affects the 
signal. With more horizontal signal paths the signal is closer to 
man-made noise sources on the ground.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake eric at megageek.com, On 1/19/2010 3:42 PM:
> David asks?
>
>   
>>    Interesting.  I don't see how dish location can avoid weather
>>     
> interference,
>   
>> unless you have a really effing tall chimney
>>     
>
>
> The problem with most installations is that the dish is set on a pole,
> which is extended from a flat (or pitched) surface.  This means that the
> dish is effectively a tall sail in all windy conditions.  Over time, the
> wind can move (albeit every slightly) in a direction.  Not to mention that
> it vibrates the dish when it is windy.
>
> Also, with nothing protecting if from above, it is open to all the
> elements.  Placing it on the side of a building with a slight overhang
> will do wonders.
>
> Between these two factors, most of the problems can be eliminated.
>
> (I thought I had a picture of my installation on my website, but I can?t
> find it now.)
>
> Seriously, it makes a world of difference.
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jan 19 15:39:25 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:39:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] dish mounting
In-Reply-To: <OF517001BE.63E9C707-ON642576B0.0077A76A-642576B0.0077B1AB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF517001BE.63E9C707-ON642576B0.0077A76A-642576B0.0077B1AB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191719050.97378@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> The problem with most installations is that the dish is set on a pole,
> which is extended from a flat (or pitched) surface.  This means that the
> dish is effectively a tall sail in all windy conditions.  Over time, the
> wind can move (albeit every slightly) in a direction.  Not to mention that
> it vibrates the dish when it is windy.

    This describes my current installation, which is on the plumbing vent, 
although it isn't very tall ( below the top roofline ).

> Also, with nothing protecting if from above, it is open to all the
> elements.  Placing it on the side of a building with a slight overhang
> will do wonders.

    This describes my original two mounts, on vertical walls with slight 
overhangs.

> Seriously, it makes a world of difference.

    In my case, there's no difference at all between the two.  And to my 
recollection, we've never lost signal on a dry, windy day with the new 
more-exposed pipe mounting.  Dry and windy only happens here about 150 
days a year, though ;)

    All your theories make perfect sense, but they donn't make any 
difference on my house.  Btw, if you're mounting under a slight overhang 
in a snowy climate, try to pick a spot with good winter sun to melt off 
the snow, so you don't have to get out a ladder in the snow.  Or a little 
heating element on a switch, would be brilliant.

    For what it's worth, the Hughes satellite broadband dish I used to have 
suffered the same weather problems.  That dish did not move at all in 
wind, or any other weather ( huge 3" diameter main pole, with 3' arms in 
several directions, all professionally installed with 4" bolts into my 
roof joists ).  The problem is that some days, there's just too much crap 
in the air between it and the bird.  Not often, mind you, just on the days 
you want to sit inside and watch TV.

--
  David Hillman

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 17:07:42 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:07:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001191607u31be5116qe2506354540df8d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 12:23 PM, David Hillman
<hillman at planet-torque.com>wrote:

> [ Tried to send this yesterday, but it was too long. ]
>
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
>> First off, that ?20mb? you get is a shared pipe from Comcast.
>>
>
>   People say this to me everytime I tell them how fast it is.  Is it
> shared, yeah.  Do I care since I can never tell?  No.  Maybe no one else in
> my neighborhood has found the Internet yet, but for whatever reason, I get
> all the bandwidth I can consume ( which is a lot ) from Comcast.
>

Where cable companies have things right, it's quite fast.  (and no, his
connection needn't be shared.)  Where they don't, it's bad.

>
>  People that have problems losing signal during rain is because their dish
>> is not properly set up.  Many times, the installers just place the dish in
>> the ?easiest? location.  With a properly located dish, you will almost
>> NEVER lose signal.
>>
>
>   Interesting.  I don't see how dish location can avoid weather
> interference, unless you have a really effing tall chimney ;)  Around here
> anyway, weather tends to fill the whole sky.  I would be interested to know
> how to improve the setup of my dish, which I did myself ( 3 times ).
>  Initially I put it on the end wall of the garage ( this would be your
> 'easiest location' ).  Even though the DTV guy's hand-held meter showed
> signal there, it wouldn't work at all (tree interference).  I moved it above
> the garage for about 8 years, and then last year when we re-did the siding,
> to a less-visible spot on the rear of the roof.  In both spots, the signal
> drops out during all summer thunderstorms, some heavy snow, and occasional
> dense fog.  A few times sticky snow had me out in the driveway with a long
> implement brushing the dish clean... if this happens again with the new
> location, I'm screwed until it warms up and melts.
>
>
Dishes tend to be poorly aimed.  adjust until the signal is "good enough"
not adjust until it's as high as it can  be.  So a marginal signal will get
unusable in bad weather than a strong one.  Installers are also fond of
sticking dishes on poles as a handy way of clearing trees and the like.
Poles move in wind; and ddepending on the pole, it won't always end up at
the same place.

I don't remember where you are, but this matters more as you move north,
because there is longer signal path through atmosphere.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From chad at linuxeg.com  Tue Jan 19 19:06:09 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:06:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
In-Reply-To: <4B562E8D.60908@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <OF517001BE.63E9C707-ON642576B0.0077A76A-642576B0.0077B1AB@mail.megageek.com>
	<4B562E8D.60908@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4B566511.6040100@linuxeg.com>

/fJvAHp: Permission denied

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Jan 20 06:28:45 2010
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 07:28:45 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] u-verse
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d41001191607u31be5116qe2506354540df8d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC416DB52D03435AAA32081A9B80C019@behavioral.com>

> Dishes tend to be poorly aimed.  adjust until the signal is "good enough"
> not adjust until it's as high as it can  be.  So a marginal signal will 
> get
> unusable in bad weather than a strong one.

I will agree with "poorly aimed" and the difference between "signal on the 
meter" and "maximum signal strength".. I have installed and aimed both my 
old dish and the new HD dish. The old dish was reasonably tolerant of aim to 
the point where I could aim it using the receivers signal strength meter and 
get good results. The HD dish not only required that I get an Acutrac III 
signal strength meter - but that was a 'tool purchase' - but the signal 
strength is very sensitive changes to the dish rotation, azimuth and 
elevation, especially on the most westerly satellites. I was very surprised 
at how small the changes were on the 'fine adjustment' as I went thru the 
alignment incantation multiple times refining the signal strength. I could 
not imagine a "paid by the job" installer having this much patience to do 
the fine tuning.

Arvid 

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Jan 20 09:21:02 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:21:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] dish pointing
In-Reply-To: <EC416DB52D03435AAA32081A9B80C019@behavioral.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d41001191607u31be5116qe2506354540df8d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC416DB52D03435AAA32081A9B80C019@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001201112590.52908@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I will agree with "poorly aimed" and the difference between "signal on the 
> meter" and "maximum signal strength".. I have installed and aimed both my old 
> dish and the new HD dish. The old dish was reasonably tolerant of aim to the 
> point where I could aim it using the receivers signal strength meter and get 
> good results.

    I was wondering if maybe the difference between my experience and 
others' had to do with the age of the equipment.  I've had DTV since '99, 
and only the set-top box has been replaced ( 8 or 9 years ago the first 
one flaked out ).  Maybe the newer non-HD equipment is more reliable?

    That said, what do you guys consider sufficient signal?  I get 100% on 
2 transponders, low/mid-nineties on a dozen others, seventies/eighties on 
about 15, and none at all on a couple.  ( All on-screen meter numbers. )

--
  David Hillman

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jan 20 10:13:50 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:13:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] dish pointing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001201112590.52908@itonami.pair.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d41001191607u31be5116qe2506354540df8d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC416DB52D03435AAA32081A9B80C019@behavioral.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001201112590.52908@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4B5739CE.4010309@hornesystemstx.com>

David,

Sounds good to me. The transponder number are really not what you need 
to be looking at, but the satellite azimuth. The transponders are all on 
the same satellite, but are pointed at different areas. The receiver 
will select the transponder with the best signal. As for the satellites, 
all TV channels are not all on all satellites. That is why if/when you 
upgrade to HD, they have to add either an additional feed horn to your 
existing dish, or an entirely new dish pointing at the HD satellite. 
Around here (Central Texas) we use 110 and 118 for normal channels and 
(I think) something in the 60's for HD.

FWIW, we get good heavy downpours from time to time, and we loose 
signal, even though we have near 100% signal strength on the on-screen 
aiming. We have 2 dishes, one about 12 years old, and another one about 
2 years old, which I aimed to get best signal. They both drop out in 
heavy rain, but not fog/medium rain. Neither are HD.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David Hillman, On 1/20/2010 10:21 AM:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
>> I will agree with "poorly aimed" and the difference between "signal 
>> on the meter" and "maximum signal strength".. I have installed and 
>> aimed both my old dish and the new HD dish. The old dish was 
>> reasonably tolerant of aim to the point where I could aim it using 
>> the receivers signal strength meter and get good results.
>
>    I was wondering if maybe the difference between my experience and 
> others' had to do with the age of the equipment.  I've had DTV since 
> '99, and only the set-top box has been replaced ( 8 or 9 years ago the 
> first one flaked out ).  Maybe the newer non-HD equipment is more 
> reliable?
>
>    That said, what do you guys consider sufficient signal?  I get 100% 
> on 2 transponders, low/mid-nineties on a dozen others, 
> seventies/eighties on about 15, and none at all on a couple.  ( All 
> on-screen meter numbers. )
>
> -- 
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 12:44:51 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:44:51 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] dish pointing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001201112590.52908@itonami.pair.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d41001191607u31be5116qe2506354540df8d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC416DB52D03435AAA32081A9B80C019@behavioral.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001201112590.52908@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385361001201144y2d12ba44qe8aad6d0f0167940@mail.gmail.com>

*I'm in process of going with Dish and they're telling me I should go with
HD at $10 more a month because otherwise, when I DO get an HD receiver,
it'll cost about $300 to upgrade.  Does that sound right"?*
*Tony*

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jan 20 13:12:55 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:12:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] dish pointing
In-Reply-To: <ea2385361001201144y2d12ba44qe8aad6d0f0167940@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001191219500.97378@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d41001191607u31be5116qe2506354540df8d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC416DB52D03435AAA32081A9B80C019@behavioral.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001201112590.52908@itonami.pair.com>
	<ea2385361001201144y2d12ba44qe8aad6d0f0167940@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B5763C7.4000803@hornesystemstx.com>

Tony,

It's plausible. The HD dish requires an extra coax be run from the roof 
to the set top box or switch. IT is much easier to run all the wires at 
once, rather than having to go back and run it later.

It may be that you are in a location where a second dish is needed to 
get the HD signals, so again, if they put it up now it will be less work 
later for the installer.

Having said that, the longer you go without upgrading to HD, the more 
"free money" they get from you for non-HD service!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Elton E. (Tony) Clark, On 1/20/2010 1:44 PM:
> *I'm in process of going with Dish and they're telling me I should go with
> HD at $10 more a month because otherwise, when I DO get an HD receiver,
> it'll cost about $300 to upgrade.  Does that sound right"?*
> *Tony*
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Jan 20 18:59:46 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:59:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <06B919F8EB3E48A7BFE7D832CA75D142@watsongxpejt9r>
References: <5BCDCE03DFC64EC5A391EFE0D46C111A@mini>
	<06B919F8EB3E48A7BFE7D832CA75D142@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <4B57B512.70705@justbrits.com>

<<That old dissimilar metals issue sprang to mind when I read
your email.>>

Have to TOTALLY agree, Mark.

I designed & sold Ambulance & Small Fire Apparatus
a few years ago.  That was the single thing that was
NEVER done.  LOTS of steel framing for bodies and
skin was aluminum [HUGE weight savings !!].

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Jan 20 23:20:50 2010
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:20:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic wire strippers
Message-ID: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>

Hey Folks,

Looking for recommendations for automatic wire strippers--the kind you stick a stranded or solid wire into and squeeze 
the handle and, presto, a clean strip with no nicks.

Have seen good things said about this one: http://tinyurl.com/yjcl3u8

TIA,
Bob

*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 20 23:54:41 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:54:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic wire strippers
In-Reply-To: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>
References: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B57FA31.8060209@earthlink.net>

I have a pair from Harbor Freight and they work nice, but most of the 
time I end up using a pair similar to the Klein 11055 or Irwin 
Industrial Tools 2078309.  With the automatic stripper I have, you have 
to make sure to squeeze it all the way closed or the wire stripper part 
stays down and crunches the tip of your stranded wire.

Brian

Bob Spidell wrote:
> Hey Folks,
>
> Looking for recommendations for automatic wire strippers--the kind you 
> stick a stranded or solid wire into and squeeze the handle and, 
> presto, a clean strip with no nicks.
>
> Have seen good things said about this one: http://tinyurl.com/yjcl3u8
>
> TIA,
> Bob
>
> *******************************************************************
> Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
>
> *******************************************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jan 21 02:11:00 2010
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:11:00 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] more plumbing
Message-ID: <20100121.041100.11410.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

I own a 25 year old house in Alabama that I have rented and it has poly piping
in the slab.  In the last year I have repaired a several leaks with a couple
that were leaking where the pipe emerges from the slab.  Real PITAs!  Well, I
have another and think it is time to bite the bullet and replumb the house.
Local knowledge seems to call for running pex through the attic and snaking it
down to the fixtures attempting to minimize the wall opening.  Anyone here
done similar or have any pointers?

I'm not gonna do this myself - going with the pros on this one.

Thanks,
Matt

____________________________________________________________
Diet Help
Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=yKl74QaJ-4a4RPvLnvM4rAAAJ1Bdm0m
GPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Jan 21 05:35:36 2010
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:35:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic wire strippers
In-Reply-To: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>
References: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000d01ca9a96$3baa5130$b2fef390$@mele@usermail.com>

<<Hey Folks,

Looking for recommendations for automatic wire strippers-->>

====

I own this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Pro-Grade-Self-Adjusting-Cable-Stripper/dp/B0
00IYTCG6/ref=pd_cp_hi_2

works pretty well.  my son finds it much easier than dikes, but I still use
the dikes most of the time.

PM  

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 21 05:54:29 2010
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:54:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic wire strippers
In-Reply-To: <4B57FA31.8060209@earthlink.net>
References: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>,<4B57FA31.8060209@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SNT127-W11DF182F57FAB6F3E24AE69A630@phx.gbl>

I have the Ideal L 4421 Stripmaster and I've used it for quite a bit of wiring
around the house, got it from Lowes years ago.



PJ


 > Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:54:41 -0800
> From: bk13 at earthlink.net
> To: bspidell at comcast.net
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Automatic wire strippers
>
> I have a pair from Harbor Freight and they work nice, but most of the
> time I end up using a pair similar to the Klein 11055 or Irwin
> Industrial Tools 2078309. With the automatic stripper I have, you have
> to make sure to squeeze it all the way closed or the wire stripper part
> stays down and crunches the tip of your stranded wire.
>
> Brian
>
> Bob Spidell wrote:
> > Hey Folks,
> >
> > Looking for recommendations for automatic wire strippers--the kind you
> > stick a stranded or solid wire into and squeeze the handle and,
> > presto, a clean strip with no nicks.
> >
> > Have seen good things said about this one: http://tinyurl.com/yjcl3u8
> >
> > TIA,
> > Bob
> >
> > *******************************************************************
> > Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net


_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 21 07:13:39 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:13:39 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic wire strippers
In-Reply-To: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>
References: <4B57F242.9010202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W105FEBA8A531A16C46FA30E1630@phx.gbl>

I have a wire stripper of this type that work very well.  I think mine are
Ideal brand.  Klien is the professional brand of hand tools for electricians.
They should as good or better then any other brands.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!




> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:20:50 -0800
> From: bspidell at comcast.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic wire strippers
>
> Hey Folks,
>
> Looking for recommendations for automatic wire strippers--the kind you stick
a stranded or solid wire into and squeeze
> the handle and, presto, a clean strip with no nicks.
>
> Have seen good things said about this one: http://tinyurl.com/yjcl3u8
>
> TIA,
> Bob
>
> *******************************************************************
> Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net
>
> *******************************************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jan 21 07:28:22 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:28:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more plumbing
In-Reply-To: <20100121.041100.11410.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20100121.041100.11410.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <4B586486.3010301@hornesystemstx.com>

Matt,

Get several bids and check their history with previous customers and 
possibly local BBB before you select a company. They might also be 
listed on Angie's list. Depending on whether or not there is any 
blocking in the walls it might be a fairly easy job. If you have any 
fixtures below a window it will be harder to do that from the top unless 
there are cabinets or such beside the fixture (like a kitchen sink) that 
will allow the pipes to get to their destination easily. Exterior walls 
are always a PITA, especially when the roof sits directly on top of the 
walls. These might require cutting drywall out and repairing it later.

Good luck,

Peace,
Pat



Thusly spake Matt, On 1/21/2010 3:11 AM:
> I own a 25 year old house in Alabama that I have rented and it has poly piping
> in the slab.  In the last year I have repaired a several leaks with a couple
> that were leaking where the pipe emerges from the slab.  Real PITAs!  Well, I
> have another and think it is time to bite the bullet and replumb the house.
> Local knowledge seems to call for running pex through the attic and snaking it
> down to the fixtures attempting to minimize the wall opening.  Anyone here
> done similar or have any pointers?
>
> I'm not gonna do this myself - going with the pros on this one.
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Diet Help
> Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=yKl74QaJ-4a4RPvLnvM4rAAAJ1Bdm0m
> GPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Thu Jan 21 17:31:02 2010
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 19:31:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Testing
Message-ID: <F154F5BFE8F74E849B3A3468105EBFC4@Fest>

I am interested in testing two items... I am working on an antique car which
has a coil.  I have a few lying around and wondering if I can test them
somehow ?? I've bought a few new ones which don't seem to be any good and
would like to test them as well.

Also, I have a few car battery charger lying around.  How do I test if they
work.  I know I can rub the ends together and get a spark.  Can I simply put a
lead of an electrical tester on each cable and read the meter ??
Thanks,
Dan

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 21 18:37:48 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:37:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Testing
In-Reply-To: <F154F5BFE8F74E849B3A3468105EBFC4@Fest>
References: <F154F5BFE8F74E849B3A3468105EBFC4@Fest>
Message-ID: <3305601CB96647209FA3295A6AD7B855@jdnet.deere.com>

> I have a few lying around and 
> wondering if I can test them somehow ?? 

How antique is your antique?  Is it Kettering style or does it use a
vibrator coil ala Model T ?  Or a magneto coil ? Etc...

Assuming it is Kettering style, by far the best test, IMO, is to put it on a
car and see how well it runs under load (take a test drive).  But there are
some simple bench tests that give perhaps 75% confidence that the coil is
good.  Used to be a nice blow-by-blow sequence on Mossmotors.com but I can't
find it at the moment.  

Basically you start by checking the resistance between the two side
terminals (which for an antique should be around 3 ohms although 1.5 ohms
started being common in the 1960's), and the resistance between the between
either side terminal and the center terminal (which should be around
10,000-15,000 ohms).  Also check the resistance between any terminal and the
case (which should be at least 20 megohms if you keep your fingers away).

Then set up a spark gap of some sort (eg old spark plug) between the center
terminal and either side terminal, and connect a 12v source across the side
terminals.  When you pull a wire off, you should see a spark.

> Can I simply put a lead of an electrical tester 
> on each cable and read the meter ??

Depends a lot on the charger as to what you will read (if anything).  Most
'dumb' chargers are going to look like 18 volts or even higher; some
combinations of charger & digital meter will give readings that jump all
over the place (the chargers output actually varies between 18+ volts and
zero).  Many 'smart' chargers won't put out anything at all until they see a
battery connected.  Again the easiest/best test IMO is to hook them to a
battery and see if they charge it (which you can judge by measuring current
and voltage).

-- Randall  

From mpless at servo.ucsd.edu  Sat Jan 23 20:05:00 2010
From: mpless at servo.ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:05:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu>

I'm looking for a cheap outdoor low light "security" camera solution
to figure out which varmints are poking around the garage at night.
I've definitely seen foxes in the back yard right next to the garage 
and I suspect there might be a coyote as well. I'm hoping to avoid
walking out of the garage at night and tripping over a skunk or
coyote. ;-)

I'm not looking for an expensive industrial grade security system,
mainly something motion activated that would work in low light at
night. Bonus points if it "records" on a computer so I don't have
to find a functioning VCR.

Does the stuff at x10.com work as advertised? Their website is so
full of hype that I'm having a hard time believing the info there.

The collective wisdom on this list never ceases to amaze me. Any
suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

--Marcus

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 23:39:03 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 00:39:03 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <ea2385361001232239p4e9ade9fn690ddff159b50ffe@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Marcus Pless <mpless at servo.ucsd.edu> wrote:

> I'm looking for a cheap outdoor low light "security" camera solution
> to figure out which varmints are poking around the garage at night.
> I've definitely seen foxes in the back yard right next to the garage and I
> suspect there might be a coyote as well. I'm hoping to avoid
> walking out of the garage at night and tripping over a skunk or
> coyote. ;-)
>
> *Wull, I had foxes at my shop and I wanted a better look, so I bought an
> el cheapo security camera with both daylight and infrared capabilities . .
> I'd feed them scraps and stuff and watch a TV inside the shop .. big fun .
> .I had them named: Gertrude, Heathcliff and Junior. So much fun I had a
> couple of couples over for coffee, cake and wildlife one night.  In a 2 hour
> period we had the foxes, a possum,  a racoon, two skunks and the ladies' cat
> from down the street!  Once, I had the racoon and the cat eating dry dogfood
> at the same time, side by side . . My shop is in a sort of "downtown"
> location but there is a rail line and a creek that gives "critter" access.
> *

Tony in Texas

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 24 06:50:57 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 08:50:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <799C0D24F6F045D3ADE45A903F96F345@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, Marcus,

    First off you hit the nail right on the head when you said: "The 
collective wisdom on this list never ceases to amaze me."

    About x10.com - well they sure bought into the "sex sells" message. 
What do scantily clad young ladies have to do with the systems being 
advertised?  The "eye-candy" distracts me from looking at the product so I 
end up not looking at their site at all.  Hype is right.

    How about poking around Smarthome?  www.smarthome.com  On their "Cameras 
and Surveillance" page they have a "Camera Selection Assistant" that lets 
you narrow down the number of cameas to review.  I don't know how they 
compare price-wise.  They have been around for quite a while - I've been 
looking at their catalogs for years and dreaming of what I'd like to do 
given any money and, more importantly, time.

    Let us know what you do - I've got an area behind my garage that I'd 
like to be able to watch.

Mark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Pless" <mpless at servo.ucsd.edu>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:05 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras


> I'm looking for a cheap outdoor low light "security" camera solution
> to figure out which varmints are poking around the garage at night.
> I've definitely seen foxes in the back yard right next to the garage and I 
> suspect there might be a coyote as well. I'm hoping to avoid
> walking out of the garage at night and tripping over a skunk or
> coyote. ;-)
>
<snip>
> Does the stuff at x10.com work as advertised? Their website is so
> full of hype that I'm having a hard time believing the info there.
>
> The collective wisdom on this list never ceases to amaze me. Any
> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> --Marcus
> _______________________________________________

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 24 07:03:44 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:03:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
Message-ID: <7337783E5FC34D37BB89F985F13F6820@watsongxpejt9r>

Marcus,

    Or you might be able to use this: 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16881802001

Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 24 07:52:25 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:52:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <208457.11291.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

BTW, various people on Ebay sell new X10.com stuff for a bit less than X10.com
themselves, especially when including chipping.  I recently bought several X10
lamp modules (for managing Christmas lights) from a couple of vendors, and
they all arrived quickly.

I think the X10 Web site style is deliberately made
to be retro-camp.

Doug

--- On Sat, 1/23/10, Marcus Pless
<mpless at servo.ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Does the stuff at x10.com work as
advertised? Their website
> is so
> full of hype that I'm having a hard time
believing the info
> there.
> 
> The collective wisdom on this list never
ceases to amaze
> me. Any
> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> 
>
--Marcus
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> 
> You
are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
>
http://www.team.net/archive

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Sun Jan 24 09:24:55 2010
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:24:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <799C0D24F6F045D3ADE45A903F96F345@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <C781DE87.C470%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Dunno if it'll help, but when I was looking for a computer camera to go with
the Skype application so I could talk to and see my grandkids, there were
some surveillance type cameras, as I recall. I can't remember where I found
the one I bought for my computer.
Brian K
-- 


> From: Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net>
> Reply-To: Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net>
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 08:50:57 -0500
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
> 
> Hi, Marcus,
> 
>     First off you hit the nail right on the head when you said: "The
> collective wisdom on this list never ceases to amaze me."
> 
>     About x10.com - well they sure bought into the "sex sells" message.
> What do scantily clad young ladies have to do with the systems being
> advertised?  The "eye-candy" distracts me from looking at the product so I
> end up not looking at their site at all.  Hype is right.
> 
>     How about poking around Smarthome?  www.smarthome.com  On their "Cameras
> and Surveillance" page they have a "Camera Selection Assistant" that lets
> you narrow down the number of cameas to review.  I don't know how they
> compare price-wise.  They have been around for quite a while - I've been
> looking at their catalogs for years and dreaming of what I'd like to do
> given any money and, more importantly, time.
> 
>     Let us know what you do - I've got an area behind my garage that I'd
> like to be able to watch.
> 
> Mark
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Pless" <mpless at servo.ucsd.edu>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:05 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
> 
> 
>> I'm looking for a cheap outdoor low light "security" camera solution
>> to figure out which varmints are poking around the garage at night.
>> I've definitely seen foxes in the back yard right next to the garage and I
>> suspect there might be a coyote as well. I'm hoping to avoid
>> walking out of the garage at night and tripping over a skunk or
>> coyote. ;-)
>> 
> <snip>
>> Does the stuff at x10.com work as advertised? Their website is so
>> full of hype that I'm having a hard time believing the info there.
>> 
>> The collective wisdom on this list never ceases to amaze me. Any
>> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
>> --Marcus

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Jan 24 10:01:41 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:01:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <C781DE87.C470%kennedybc@comcast.net>
References: <799C0D24F6F045D3ADE45A903F96F345@watsongxpejt9r>
	<C781DE87.C470%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385361001240901xffb5093l74aefcb87c4576bf@mail.gmail.com>

*I had the old model from Sam's which was not color and not weatherproof and
cost $40.*
**
*Look what $40 will buy now from Harbor Freight:*
**
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=95914
**
**
**
*Tony in Texas*
**

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sun Jan 24 10:05:57 2010
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:05:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <abb8688a1001240905s22328d94v8f3ef3feb188bafa@mail.gmail.com>

I have bought several itmes from supercircuits.com  They have a good
selection of stuff.  It tends to be higher quality but the prices are
not terrible.  I have also seen a usable system for what you want at
harbor freight.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Marcus Pless <mpless at servo.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> I'm looking for a cheap outdoor low light "security" camera solution
> to figure out which varmints are poking around the garage at night.
> I've definitely seen foxes in the back yard right next to the garage and I
> suspect there might be a coyote as well. I'm hoping to avoid
> walking out of the garage at night and tripping over a skunk or
> coyote. ;-)
>
> I'm not looking for an expensive industrial grade security system,
> mainly something motion activated that would work in low light at
> night. Bonus points if it "records" on a computer so I don't have
> to find a functioning VCR.
>
> Does the stuff at x10.com work as advertised? Their website is so
> full of hype that I'm having a hard time believing the info there.
>
> The collective wisdom on this list never ceases to amaze me. Any
> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> --Marcus
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 24 11:04:31 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:04:31 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <ea2385361001240901xffb5093l74aefcb87c4576bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799C0D24F6F045D3ADE45A903F96F345@watsongxpejt9r>
	<C781DE87.C470%kennedybc@comcast.net>
	<ea2385361001240901xffb5093l74aefcb87c4576bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B5C8BAF.209@earthlink.net>

I bought one of these HF cameras based on the price and returned it 
right away. The picture quality is bad. I would expect the minimum 
camera you would find acceptable to retail for over $75. If you can see 
specifications, look at the night range then treat that as a maximum 
that you can see something move. The camera should plug directly into a 
RCA type video input jack on a TV. If you only care about night vision, 
you might also get better quality with a black and white camera.

If you are a Costco member, they have a number of real systems with 
cameras and a DVR. See http://www.costco.com/ and select electronics > 
security & monitoring. These systems do motion triggered recordings, so 
you can set them to record only when something is happening. Note that 
depending on sensitivity settings and how you aim the camera, tree 
branches blowing in the wind are also "motion". Most of the DVRs are 
networkable, so you can monitor them via home computer or the internet 
if enabled.

You can also find a good online assortment at newegg.com. Another person 
mentioned a baby monitor. I have one and used it for a while to try and 
record the trash truck running into my tree branches. It worked well 
during the day when not looking towards the sun, but was only good for 
about 5 feet at night. They are also typically not weather resistant.

I've recorded on my computer with my old ATI All in Wonder TV/video card 
(8500DV). It has a regular composite video in which is what the cameras 
use, and does time lapse or motion triggered recording. There are also 
many video capture cards you can get for your PC.

Whatever you get, I also recommend doing a simple test of the camera 
roughly in position before you put in a lot of effort mounting it to 
make sure it meets your expectations. Since the lower price cameras 
don't zoom, you also wnat to make sure you can see the desired field of 
view.

Brian


Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> *I had the old model from Sam's which was not color and not weatherproof and
> cost $40.*
> **
> *Look what $40 will buy now from Harbor Freight:*
> **
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=95914
> **
> **
> **
> *Tony in Texas*
> **
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jan 24 11:02:32 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:32:32 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <799C0D24F6F045D3ADE45A903F96F345@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <OF4826C063.B6B1D30D-ON642576B5.0062D24D-642576B5.006397DC@mail.megageek.com>

Here is my take on X10.  It's not the best out there, but it is easy to 
retrofit into a older home.  I have my last home (built in the 30's) with 
100% X10 and it was pretty good.  X10 can be a little slow to respond at 
times, and components go south every now and then.

When I moved into my currently house (originally built in 1810, and 
expanded on over the centuries) I made it 100% X10.  However in the past 
10 years of living there, I've been slowly takin gout pieces of it that 
are acting weird.  I'm definitely not as happy with it in this home as my 
last home.  I would not use it for security system if prevention of thief 
was your purposes.  For watching critters, it might be fine.

I use a system for my security cameras from  Grandtec. The X guard system. 
 All I can say is SAY AWAY FROM THEM!!!!  I will replace there system as 
soon as I can.  The drivers are a pain to install, their requirements seem 
to change every time I have a problem, and their stuff doesn't work.

If you want, I'll sell you my 9 port system from them!  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 24 19:14:52 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Testing
In-Reply-To: <F154F5BFE8F74E849B3A3468105EBFC4@Fest>
Message-ID: <640756.87947.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Generally a coil should show something like 3-5 ohms between the low-tension
terminals, and thousands of ohms from the high-tension terminal to low-tension
terminal.  Six-volt coils have less resistance between the low tension
terminals.  There should be infinite resistance from any terminal to the case.
Naturally if you have a known-good coil of the same type, you can compare its
measurements with the ones from the questionable coil.

Make sure that
corrosion on the terminals is not preventing you from getting an accurate
reading.

I never go to a swap meet without a multimeter in my bag.  When I
went to Hershey last fall, this allowed me to cherry-pick a good Model A coil
from a bunch, and test a big electric soldering iron before buying it.

As for
battery chargers, I would expect at least 15 volts between the terminals with
no battery connected, but this would be very dependent on the type of circuit
they have.   It would be better to test them by measuring the current they
supply to a battery.  Chargers with a built-im meter are self-testing :-)
Doug

--- On Thu, 1/21/10, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)
<coles at colesnurseries.com> wrote:

> From: Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries
Inc) <coles at colesnurseries.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Testing
>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 7:31 PM
> I
am interested in testing two
> items... I am working on an antique car which
>
has a coil.  I have a few lying around and wondering
> if I can test them
>
somehow ?? I've bought a few new ones which don't seem to
> be any good and
>
would like to test them as well.
> 
> Also, I have a few car battery charger
lying around. 
> How do I test if they
> work.  I know I can rub the ends
together and get a
> spark.  Can I simply put a
> lead of an electrical tester
on each cable and read the
> meter ??
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
_______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> 
> You
are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
>
http://www.team.net/archive

From mpless at ucsd.edu  Mon Jan 25 11:55:51 2010
From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:55:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001231853150.17310@servo.ucsd.edu> (from
	mpless@servo.ucsd.edu on Sat Jan 23 19:05:00 2010)
Message-ID: <1264445751l.5280l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>

I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions. Since I'm
basically looking for a "critter cam" this needs to be an
inexpensive project. I've got a couple of ideas based on
the responses that I'm still investigating. One question
that I've sent to a retailer (at Smarthome.com) is exactly
what "motion activated" implies. Is the camera always "recording"
to a PC and it only uses the motion activation to generate
an alert, or does the motion activation initiate the "recording".
Potentially a huge difference in disk usage.  ;-)

When/if I implement something I'll report any findings.

Thanks again!

--Marcus

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 25 15:00:18 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:00:18 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
Message-ID: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>

Periodically our water heater does not get the water very hot.  Most of the
time, the first shower of the morning is nice and hot even requiring some cold
water to be added to the mix.  Sometimes it is only warm with no cold water
added.  It is like the heater is not always heating the water to the same
temperature.  It is a fifteen year old gas water heater.  Any ideas what to
look for?
Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan 25 15:22:19 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:22:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A6EBC23-DDEC-46F5-9D00-B6D65919251B@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Rich White wrote:
>  It is a fifteen year old gas water heater.  Any ideas what to
> look for?


Yes, a new water heater :-)

Seriously, unless you've been renewing the anode rod, there's not much  
metal left at the bottom of the tank and it will start leaking soon.

As for the temp problem, if it isn't the water heater sensor going  
bad, I've seen this often with mixing valves- is there a mixing valve  
that would add some cold water to the hot coming out of the heater? It  
could also be the shower mixing valve- have you tested other sources  
of hot water when this occurs?

jim

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jan 25 16:07:24 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:07:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <588593.45550.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It is 99% certain that you will end up replacing it.
Possibly the thermostat
is bad and the gas valve could be replaced, but at 15 years old, most plumbers
would think it foolish not to replace it.

doug

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, Rich
White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Rich White
<rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
> To:
"shop-talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Monday, January 25, 2010,
5:00 PM
> Periodically our water heater does
> not get the water very hot. 
Most of the
> time, the first shower of the morning is nice and hot even
>
requiring some cold
> water to be added to the mix.  Sometimes it is only
>
warm with no cold water
> added.  It is like the heater is not always heating
> the water to the same
> temperature.  It is a fifteen year old gas water
>
heater.  Any ideas what to
> look for?
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
> '63
TR3B TCF587L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
>
_______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> 
> You
are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
>
http://www.team.net/archive

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 25 16:21:11 2010
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:21:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <4A6EBC23-DDEC-46F5-9D00-B6D65919251B@groupwbench.org>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
	<4A6EBC23-DDEC-46F5-9D00-B6D65919251B@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <00b701ca9e15$150e4900$3f2adb00$@net>

Yep - you've lived about 5 years into the probable wet floor actuarial
tables!


C-Ya 

Ron

On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Rich White wrote:
>  It is a fifteen year old gas water heater.  Any ideas what to
> look for?


Yes, a new water heater :-)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan 25 17:22:04 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:22:04 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <111EBF2BA43B4A76AF625D6F631C098E@jdnet.deere.com>

>  It is like the heater is not always heating the water to the 
> same temperature.  It is a fifteen year old gas water heater. 

I'd go with Jim's suggestion first, and make sure it's the water heater and
not your shower valve (or mixing valve if you have one, I never have).

Might be worth examining the burner in the heater, though, especially if
it's located near a clothes dryer.  We had a leaking dryer exhaust, that
allowed enough lint to build up in the heater burner to make it erratic.

Fifteen years seems kind of short to me, I replaced what appeared to be the
original 1960 unit almost 20 years ago now, and the replacement is still
going strong.  Still, 15 is old enough that I wouldn't put a lot of effort
into fixing it.  Newer heaters are typically more efficient anyway.

-- Randall  

From marka at maracing.com  Mon Jan 25 19:07:12 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:07:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <4A6EBC23-DDEC-46F5-9D00-B6D65919251B@groupwbench.org>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
	<4A6EBC23-DDEC-46F5-9D00-B6D65919251B@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252105570.16063@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Yes, a new water heater :-)
>
> Seriously, unless you've been renewing the anode rod, there's not much 
> metal left at the bottom of the tank and it will start leaking soon.

This reminds me...

I had a plumber swear to me that a gas water heater didn't have a 
sacrificial anode rod.  Any truth to that?

In any event, its leaking a tiny bit on the bottom somewhere, so I'll be 
replacing or getting it replaced soon.

Mark

From 57healey at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 19:38:22 2010
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:38:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252105570.16063@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
	<4A6EBC23-DDEC-46F5-9D00-B6D65919251B@groupwbench.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252105570.16063@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2C5C194C-B180-4A02-897E-D9EEAE530F8C@Gmail.com>

My dad said the same thing to me last week?

Sent from my iPod


On Jan 25, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

> This reminds me...
>
> I had a plumber swear to me that a gas water heater didn't have a  
> sacrificial anode rod.  Any truth to that?
>
> In any event, its leaking a tiny bit on the bottom somewhere, so  
> I'll be replacing or getting it replaced soon.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as 57healey at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 25 20:11:17 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:11:17 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <1264445751l.5280l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <1264445751l.5280l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <4B5E5D55.3030009@earthlink.net>

Marcus - All my motion activated recording has been at the recorder/PC 
end.  The camera continuously sends what it sees and the software 
recorder detects change between frames to determine if the motion 
threshold is crossed.  It only writes to the file when change is 
detected.  Think of it like a software controlled pause button.  Look 
for the ability to have a time stamp on the image as you can't determine 
when the critters are active based on start/stop time of the recording 
if it is motion activated.

As an example, it your motion activated recording has the camera 
pointing at a street, you might get 30 minutes of recording an hour at 
commute time, 10 minutes of recording per hour at mid-day, and no 
recording in the wee hours of the morning.

You have several options to help control file size including setting the 
resolution and number of frames per time period.  Normal video is 30 
frames per second, but for just identifying critters, you could cut that 
down to 1 frame per second and significantly reduce the file size.  
Motion would be jerky, but you would see the critters. 

If you have a product in mind, see if you can download the manual to 
read about the options available to you.

I have a Swann camera (obsolete model) that is decent - 
http://www.swannsecurity.com/
Q-See is also a brand that has been around at least a few years - 
http://www.q-see.com/

Brian


Marcus Pless wrote:
> I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions. Since I'm
> basically looking for a "critter cam" this needs to be an
> inexpensive project. I've got a couple of ideas based on
> the responses that I'm still investigating. One question
> that I've sent to a retailer (at Smarthome.com) is exactly
> what "motion activated" implies. Is the camera always "recording"
> to a PC and it only uses the motion activation to generate
> an alert, or does the motion activation initiate the "recording".
> Potentially a huge difference in disk usage.  ;-)
>
> When/if I implement something I'll report any findings.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> --Marcus
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Jan 25 20:21:13 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:21:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252105570.16063@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2034979326.16295251264476073818.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> I had a plumber swear to me that a gas water heater didn't have a 
> sacrificial anode rod.  Any truth to that?

Hmm.  There certainly was one on my last gas water heater, but I don't see where it is on the Bradford White I have now.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 25 20:27:53 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:27:53 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4B5E6139.8050307@earthlink.net>

Rich,

I have the same issue in my new house and will probably be replacing the 
heater in the next few months.  One thing you can do to help the heaters 
is to periodically drain then to flush out sediment.  If you do this 
every year or so, it helps with the efficiency of the tank.  If you have 
not done this in 15 years, don't as it will probably lead to a leak.  I 
was up to 23 years on my gas hot water tank on the house I just sold 
after doing this for 10 years.  I don't know the condition of the anode 
rod as it was fused to the tank.  The tank was outside (coastal Los 
Angeles), so I wasn't too concerned about leaks.  Interestingly, the 
buyer's home inspector didn't point this out as an issue even though I 
disclosed the estimated age of the tank and that the T&P valve was just 
replaced because it leaked when tested.

I second the recommendation to check the temperature of the hot water at 
a faucet for a few days to confirm that it is a water heater problem and 
not some sediment messing with your shower valve.  With a 15 year old 
tank, I go along with the other people that recommend replacing it 
instead of putting much effort into solving the temperature issue.

Brian

Rich White wrote:
> Periodically our water heater does not get the water very hot.  Most of the
> time, the first shower of the morning is nice and hot even requiring some cold
> water to be added to the mix.  Sometimes it is only warm with no cold water
> added.  It is like the heater is not always heating the water to the same
> temperature.  It is a fifteen year old gas water heater.  Any ideas what to
> look for?
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF587L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From shop at justbrits.com  Mon Jan 25 20:52:05 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:52:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <111EBF2BA43B4A76AF625D6F631C098E@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
	<111EBF2BA43B4A76AF625D6F631C098E@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4B5E66E5.6080700@justbrits.com>

<< Still, 15 is old enough that I wouldn't put a lot of effort into
fixing it. Newer heaters are typically more efficient anyway. >>

Rich, as Randall says [and I agree totally <G>] above
and several others also say [as do I]; REPLACE it.

Just ask 'Yo Chap' Rick to drive one of his "C"s over,
you supply new unit AND brews - take ya couple
hours [as long a Rick stays from brews until AFTER
the job is done LMAO !!!].

'Yo Chap' Ed

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Mon Jan 25 21:13:31 2010
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:13:31 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk]  Water heater problem
Message-ID: <E93274248C6144DEAA6D128CBB77A892@DesktopPC>

> I've just replaced our 19 year old gas heater with
> a Navien mid-size instant gas heater.  Gained lots
> of storage space in the closet, gained longer showers (grin)
> and lost some speed in getting the water to the shower
> head in the morning.  Overall, very happy.  Saved lots
> of money buy buying the unit on eBay (basically wholesale
> cost and no shipping and no taxes).  Also found a new
> contractor that installed it for $1k less than others were
> quoting.  All this plus 30% tax credit.  All in all, very
> happy.
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Brian Kemp" <bk13 at earthlink.net>
> To: "Rich White" <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "shop-talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
>
>
>> Rich,
>>
>> I have the same issue in my new house and will probably be 
>> replacing the
>> heater in the next few months.  One thing you can do to help the 
>> heaters
>> is to periodically drain then to flush out sediment.  If you do 
>> this
>> every year or so, it helps with the efficiency of the tank.  If you 
>> have
>> not done this in 15 years, don't as it will probably lead to a 
>> leak. I
>> was up to 23 years on my gas hot water tank on the house I just 
>> sold
>> after doing this for 10 years.  I don't know the condition of the 
>> anode
>> rod as it was fused to the tank.  The tank was outside (coastal Los
>> Angeles), so I wasn't too concerned about leaks.  Interestingly, 
>> the
>> buyer's home inspector didn't point this out as an issue even 
>> though I
>> disclosed the estimated age of the tank and that the T&P valve was 
>> just
>> replaced because it leaked when tested.
>>
>> I second the recommendation to check the temperature of the hot 
>> water at
>> a faucet for a few days to confirm that it is a water heater 
>> problem and
>> not some sediment messing with your shower valve.  With a 15 year 
>> old
>> tank, I go along with the other people that recommend replacing it
>> instead of putting much effort into solving the temperature issue.
>>
>> Brian

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Jan 25 23:38:29 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:38:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <2034979326.16295251264476073818.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252105570.16063@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<2034979326.16295251264476073818.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <91820C2C823F480ABECF12BF3996B84A@hpa1477c>

Phil,

The Bradford-White units have them build into the cold (or is it the hot)
water outlet.  

All - Change those anode rods every five years or so and the water heater
will last a long time.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of pethier at comcast.net
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Mark Andy
Cc: shop-talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem

> I had a plumber swear to me that a gas water heater didn't have a 
> sacrificial anode rod.  Any truth to that?

Hmm.  There certainly was one on my last gas water heater, but I don't see
where it is on the Bradford White I have now.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 08:09:59 2010
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:09:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <91820C2C823F480ABECF12BF3996B84A@hpa1477c>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252105570.16063@thunder.banklogic.net> 
	<2034979326.16295251264476073818.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<91820C2C823F480ABECF12BF3996B84A@hpa1477c>
Message-ID: <df73a3fc1001260709w10b34799h71dec8e8f6c9068@mail.gmail.com>

This is something I've read about here and there, but this is perhaps
the first time in my memory that I've heard a recommended interval for
replacing an anode rod. I have not yet done a change of my anode rod -
mainly because I didn't want to discover that I've had the remains
break off and bring my water heater to an end!

I have a 7+ year old standard electric water heater at my home. The
Fairfax County public water at my house is pretty hard (and high in
chlorine). Would that (or the addition of a water
filtering/conditioning/softening unit) affect the period between anode
rod changes?

I have been looking at getting a Raine system to improve the water
here - any recommendations for/against that - or for/against an
alternate?

-Peter

--
Peter Murray (N3IXY)
Oak Hill, VA

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
> Phil,
>
> The Bradford-White units have them build into the cold (or is it the hot)
> water outlet.
>
> All - Change those anode rods every five years or so and the water heater
> will last a long time.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of pethier at comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 7:21 PM
> To: Mark Andy
> Cc: shop-talk List
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
>
>> I had a plumber swear to me that a gas water heater didn't have a
>> sacrificial anode rod.  Any truth to that?
>
> Hmm.  There certainly was one on my last gas water heater, but I don't see
> where it is on the Bradford White I have now.
>
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
> 1979 Caterham 7
> 1994 Miata C-package
> 2004 Suburban 8.1
> 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
> http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
> http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as peterwmurray at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jan 26 08:33:51 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:33:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4B5F0B5F.3060207@xxiii.com>

See this web site for really good water heater info:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/

On 1/25/2010 5:00 PM, Rich White wrote:
> Periodically our water heater does not get the water very hot.  Most of the
> time, the first shower of the morning is nice and hot even requiring some cold
> water to be added to the mix.  Sometimes it is only warm with no cold water
> added.  It is like the heater is not always heating the water to the same

Could be a bad thermostat (integrated into the gas valve, and probably as expensive as a whole new heater) or scale on the thermostat probe or so much scale and crud in the bottom that the thermostat probe is buried.  Flushing the thing might help, but it's probably on borrowed time already.

> I had a plumber swear to me that a gas water heater didn't have a
> sacrificial anode rod.  Any truth to that?

No.  He's clueless.

> There certainly was one on my last gas water heater, but I don't see where
> it is on the Bradford White I have now.

On some of them it's integrated into the cold water inlet tube.  See the web site at the top.  It has brand specific info.

Their good advice is to buy a cheap heater, and add your own additional insulation and change the anode rod periodically.  And replace the crappy drain valve with a ball valve.  And they'll sell you a very expensive kit to do so, if you value convenience over price.

-W

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan 26 08:33:49 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:33:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

So the water heater thread makes me ask this...

I need to replace our water heater, as its leaking a bit under the tank. 
It was apparently made in '91, so hey, whatever.

Its currently mounted 'fixed' with the water pipes soldered in directly 
and a hard gas line.

I'm wondering when I replace it if I shouldn't do it with flexible water / 
gas connections to make it a little easier to replace 10 to 20 years from 
now, as well as to make it a little easier to install.

I don't care about a few extra dollars.  I do care about chances for leaks 
/ problems.

Any been there, done that advice?

Mark

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan 26 08:53:41 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:53:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <4B5F0B5F.3060207@xxiii.com>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
	<4B5F0B5F.3060207@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261052450.4233@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Wayne wrote:
>> There certainly was one on my last gas water heater, but I don't see where
>> it is on the Bradford White I have now.
>
> On some of them it's integrated into the cold water inlet tube.  See the web 
> site at the top.  It has brand specific info.

I'll check the site as well, but if the anode is integrated into the water 
inlet, does that mean you really want threaded / flexible connections to 
the cold water supply to facilitate changing it?

Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 26 09:12:28 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:12:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It depends A LOT on where you live!

In California, it is absolutely required,
and the water heater has to be braced.  In New Jersey, HD, etc. sell the
flexible pipes, but every water heater I have seen had solid pipes soldered to
it.

I have never heard of an earthquake in NJ...

Doug


--- On Tue, 1/26/10,
Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:

> From: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
> Howdy,
> 
> So the water heater
thread makes me ask this...
> 
> I need to replace our water heater, as its
leaking a bit
> under the tank. It was apparently made in '91, so hey,
>
whatever.
> 
> Its currently mounted 'fixed' with the water pipes soldered
>
in directly and a hard gas line.
> 
> I'm wondering when I replace it if I
shouldn't do it with
> flexible water / gas connections to make it a little
easier
> to replace 10 to 20 years from now, as well as to make it a
> little
easier to install.
> 
> I don't care about a few extra dollars.  I do care
>
about chances for leaks / problems.
> 
> Any been there, done that advice?
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> 
> You
are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
>
http://www.team.net/archive

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan 26 09:41:11 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:41:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

> I'm wondering when I replace it if I shouldn't do it with flexible
> water / gas connections to make it a little easier to replace 10 to
> 20 years from now, as well as to make it a little easier to install.

This is exactly what I did when I replaced my hot water heater about 12
years ago.

I cut the hard copper lines and installed threaded fittings on the
"stubs".  I then added a ball valve to each line, and a "flexible"
copper line to the tank itself.  It made the installation easy (didn't
have to try to line up the pipes exactly), and will be even easier next
time (with the ball valves, I don't even have to turn off the water to
the house, just close the valves and isolate tank for the rest of the
plumbing).  The gas line was changed to a flexible one too...

Speaking of next time, that will be soon.

I also live with Fairfax County water, and too much chlorine.  We
recently got a notice that our water was too high, it came about a week
after we started having problems with our hot water facets.  The facets
were "plugged" with white "plastic" like residue - I had to remove the
shower valve and clean it out, and the kitchen sink to pull out the
plastic chunks.  Last time this happened was when I had to replace the
original heater.  Once it starts, it just continues - whatever has
degraded in the tank is causing the plastic stuff to flake off and flow
down the pipes...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan 26 09:52:43 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:52:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73835@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

> In New Jersey, HD, etc. sell the flexible pipes, but
> every water heater I have seen had solid pipes soldered
> to it.

Much cheaper to just use solid pipe - the flexible pipes cost a few
bucks instead of a few cents.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 26 10:42:17 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:42:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>

At 10:33 AM 1/26/2010, Mark Andy wrote:

 >I need to replace our water heater, as its leaking a bit under the 
tank. It was
 >apparently made in '91, so hey, whatever.
 >
 >Its currently mounted 'fixed' with the water pipes soldered in 
directly and a hard
 >gas line.
 >
 >I'm wondering when I replace it if I shouldn't do it with flexible 
water / gas
 >connections to make it a little easier to replace 10 to 20 years 
from now, as
 >well as to make it a little easier to install.

Mark,

I can't speak to the gas line, but I've installed 2 or 3 electric hot 
water heaters
with the flexable lines.  Makes the install and removal a lot easier.  2 of the
heaters I've done have been working for over 10 yrs with no leaks at either
end of the flex lines.

I personally like the flex lines!!!

There's also a relatively new coupler called Shark bite.  A quick 
disconnect coupling that you just push the copper pipe into.  It 
takes a special tool (about $3)
to insert into the coupling to remove a line.  I think these go for 
about $5 each.
For the DIYer they are fantastic.  They didn't have these around when 
I replaced
the last Hot water heater.  But I did use them when I replaced the front and
rear outside spickets.  They also work very well!!!

There's also a compression fitting you can use on sold pipes.  I've used them
several years ago (before I found the shark bites) when I replaced the manifold
for the shower in the master bath room.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 26 10:49:30 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:49:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgru m.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net>

At 11:41 AM 1/26/2010, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:

 >This is exactly what I did when I replaced my hot water heater about 12
 >years ago.
 >
 >I cut the hard copper lines and installed threaded fittings on the
 >"stubs".  I then added a ball valve to each line, and a "flexible"
 >copper line to the tank itself.  It made the installation easy (didn't
 >have to try to line up the pipes exactly), and will be even easier next
 >time (with the ball valves, I don't even have to turn off the water to
 >the house, just close the valves and isolate tank for the rest of the
 >plumbing).

Tim,

I like the idea of the ball valves.  I'll have to do that to my hot 
water heater
next time I have it replaced.  I had a solar hot water add on years ago.  All
it did was cost me money, and take up a lot of space in my garage.  So I yanked
it out.  When it came time to cap off the lines to the main hot water heater,
I had a hell-of-a time trying to sweat the fittings as the cutoff 
valve in the yard,
and the existing ones at the hot water leaked.

This was before I learned the bread trick.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 26 10:51:04 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:51:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73835@XMBIL103.northgru m.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73835@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124952.01c623e0@cox.net>

At 11:52 AM 1/26/2010, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:

 >Much cheaper to just use solid pipe - the flexible pipes cost a few
 >bucks instead of a few cents.

Tim,

True, but then you also have to go buy a new propane tourch, solid solder,
and some acid flux.

I still vote for the flex lines.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan 26 11:05:22 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:05:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D738D1@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

> There's also a compression fitting you can use on sold pipes.

That's what I used when I connected my flexible pipes.  I didn't know at
the time how easy it was to solder the fittings so I used the
compression fitting to attached the threaded connector to the end of the
existing copper pipes.

Likewise, I've never had even a hint of a leak.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From al at bighealey.org  Tue Jan 26 11:09:50 2010
From: al at bighealey.org (al at bighealey.org)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:09:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
Message-ID: <56cd414c$7531a534$2789dc86$@com>

A friend and I replaced his water heater recently [I think he is on this 
list, too - so speak up, Tom, if I forget anything...].

the water heater had hard lines to it, which did make it a bit of a pain.  
the problem was that the old heater had legs and the new one didn't, 
putting it at a different height.  This was just enough of a problem to 
cause much wrestling!  The rest of the layout is to standards, so a new 
water heater "should" just plug in, even if it has hard lines going to it.

Al Fuller
al at bighealey.org

'62 A-H BT-7
'65 A-H BJ-8
'85 Rx-7 GSL-SE


----------------------------------------

From: "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:36 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater

Howdy,

So the water heater thread makes me ask this...

I need to replace our water heater, as its leaking a bit under the tank. 
It was apparently made in '91, so hey, whatever.

Its currently mounted 'fixed' with the water pipes soldered in directly 
and a hard gas line.

I'm wondering when I replace it if I shouldn't do it with flexible water / 

gas connections to make it a little easier to replace 10 to 20 years from 
now, as well as to make it a little easier to install.

I don't care about a few extra dollars.  I do care about chances for leaks 

/ problems.

Any been there, done that advice?

Mark
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as al at bighealey.org

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan 26 11:20:18 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:20:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261319490.8369@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
> There's also a relatively new coupler called Shark bite.  A quick 
> disconnect coupling that you just push the copper pipe into.  It takes a 
> special tool (about $3) to insert into the coupling to remove a line. 
> I think these go for about $5 each. For the DIYer they are fantastic. 
> They didn't have these around when I replaced the last Hot water heater. 
> But I did use them when I replaced the front and rear outside spickets. 
> They also work very well!!!
>
> There's also a compression fitting you can use on sold pipes.  I've used 
> them several years ago (before I found the shark bites) when I replaced 
> the manifold for the shower in the master bath room.

What's wrong with just soldering a fitting onto the pipe?

Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jan 26 11:24:12 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:24:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
> This was before I learned the bread trick.

    Okay, what's the bread trick?

--
  David Hillman

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 26 11:52:45 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:52:45 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4B5F39FD.8060109@milleredp.com>

David Hillman wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
>> This was before I learned the bread trick.
> 
>    Okay, what's the bread trick?

Stuff a wad of bread up the pipe to stop drips while you solder, the 
bread will dissolve (well enough to pass through the pipes, anyway, use 
cheap white bread and not the Organic Ten-Grain stuff with big seeds in 
it...)

John.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan 26 11:57:18 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:57:18 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261319490.8369@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net><6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261319490.8369@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73928@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Mark said:
> What's wrong with just soldering a fitting onto the pipe?

Nothing.

With me, I was "afraid" that I wouldn't be able to get a good joint and
I'd have leaks.  Hence my use of the compression fittings.

Then once, I had to change a shutoff valve under a sink - remove the
compression fitting valve and since there were none like it available, I
had to solder a pipe thread fitting on the stub.  Turned out to be very
easy.  I kicked myself for being afraid to solder all those years.  I
solder whenever I can as it's easy to do.  I've had to do other fixes
under various sinks, and solder the pipes without problem.

But sometimes the compression fittings are easier - like John, my
shutoff valve to the house doesn't work 100%, so I get a bit of a leak.
It can be a pain trying to solder to a pipe that still has water leaking
out of it.  Yes, you can use the bread, etc. tricks, but slipping on the
compression fitting and tightening it up was easy, and it didn't matter
if the pipe was leaking water or not.  :)

As John said:
> True, but then you also have to go buy a new propane torch,
> solid \ solder, and some acid flux.
>
> I still vote for the flex lines.

I have all that, and I still vote for the flex lines - it makes the
installation easier, and it will make the next time that much easier.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 26 11:47:54 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:47:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261319490.8369@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261319490.8369@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126134633.01c64300@cox.net>

At 01:20 PM 1/26/2010, Mark Andy wrote:

 >What's wrong with just soldering a fitting onto the pipe?

Mark,

Nothing unless you have a problem like a leaking valve, don't have a 
tourch, or
are working in close spaces, like inside a wall, and aren't doing 
this everyday.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Jan 26 12:02:29 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:02:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261401130.9972@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, David Hillman wrote:
>> This was before I learned the bread trick.
>
>   Okay, what's the bread trick?

When you have a valve that leaks a little so you keep getting water 
dribbling down into the joint you're trying to solder, take some white 
bread and smush it up into the line to plug it, then solder up the pipe.

The white bread will disolve / wash away when the water is turned back on 
full.

Mark

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan 26 12:35:46 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:35:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261401130.9972@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net><alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261401130.9972@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73961@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

>>   Okay, what's the bread trick?
>
> When you have a valve that leaks a little so you keep getting water
> dribbling down into the joint you're trying to solder, take some white

> bread and smush it up into the line to plug it, then solder up the
pipe.
>
> The white bread will disolve / wash away when the water is turned back
on
>full.

By the way, I learned this trick on this mailing list a long time ago.
It's amazing what you can learn here.  :)

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From 3000mk3 at bighealey.org  Tue Jan 26 13:07:30 2010
From: 3000mk3 at bighealey.org (Tom Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:07:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <56cd414c$7531a534$2789dc86$@com>
References: <56cd414c$7531a534$2789dc86$@com>
Message-ID: <006a01ca9ec3$3178eba0$946ac2e0$@org>

Agreed and yet I believe Al would agree, that if we had to do it over again
we'd use the flexible compression lines that attach the solid copper water
lines to the tank. As well use a flex gas line to match up the solid black
pipe. Standards are all fine and good, yet even a 1/8 inch off here and
there adds up and can make it a difficult fit.

We took the bottom (with legs) off the old one because I wanted to it up off
the floor and the height brought it back closer to the lines used to be,
making installing the new tank a "little" easier. Again the flex lines would
have taken care of all this and were not that expensive, yet we didn't know

Tom Mitchell
1965 Austin Healey BJ8 MK3

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of al at bighealey.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:10 PM
To: Mark Andy; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater

A friend and I replaced his water heater recently [I think he is on this
list, too - so speak up, Tom, if I forget anything...].

the water heater had hard lines to it, which did make it a bit of a pain.  
the problem was that the old heater had legs and the new one didn't, putting
it at a different height.  This was just enough of a problem to cause much
wrestling!  The rest of the layout is to standards, so a new water heater
"should" just plug in, even if it has hard lines going to it.

Al Fuller
al at bighealey.org

'62 A-H BT-7
'65 A-H BJ-8
'85 Rx-7 GSL-SE


----------------------------------------

From: "Mark Andy" <marka at maracing.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:36 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater

Howdy,

So the water heater thread makes me ask this...

I need to replace our water heater, as its leaking a bit under the tank. 
It was apparently made in '91, so hey, whatever.

Its currently mounted 'fixed' with the water pipes soldered in directly and
a hard gas line.

I'm wondering when I replace it if I shouldn't do it with flexible water / 

gas connections to make it a little easier to replace 10 to 20 years from
now, as well as to make it a little easier to install.

I don't care about a few extra dollars.  I do care about chances for leaks 

/ problems.

Any been there, done that advice?

Mark
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as al at bighealey.org

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as 3000mk3 at bighealey.org

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Jan 26 13:11:28 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:11:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <27953E538A5341B0AF0C701A39B38D34@EricJRussellPC>

Call a plumber and pay him like lots of 'bread', man. 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message -----  
>    Okay, what's the bread trick?

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jan 26 13:29:40 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:29:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73961@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net><alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261323120.1490@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261401130.9972@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73961@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001261528080.1490@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:
>> The white bread will disolve / wash away when the water is turned back
>> on full.
>
> By the way, I learned this trick on this mailing list a long time ago.
> It's amazing what you can learn here.  :)

    I need to pay more attention then, this would've saved my father-in-law 
about a day of screwing around with trying to solder on leaky pipes 
a couple weeks ago.  And a lot of my propane, too.

--
  David Hillman

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan 26 13:43:55 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:43:55 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05EFB23F58EA44F1A3D5EC1C9B8F02F0@jdnet.deere.com>

> I have never heard of an earthquake in NJ...

According to a geologist friend of mine, there has been at least one major
earthquake in every state in the union.  NJ is pretty quiet though, the last
one listed was only a 3.8 back in 1973.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/new_jersey/history.php

The instructions that came with my new "high efficiency" water heater
specified using flex lines, so that's what I did.  I like them anyway,
because both pipes & tank expand and contract with temperature.  Using a
flex line ensures no force applied to the tank fittings.  Plus, I was taught
that you should have electrical isolation between the pipes & water heater,
to cut down on galvanic corrosion within the heater.  The proper flex
couplings have the electrical isolation as well.

Yeah, it costs a bit extra.  But water heaters aren't exactly cheap, and if
the proper installation ekes out a few more years without having to change
it again, it's worth it to me.  Seems like I spent another $50 on all the
installation upgrades (earthquake straps, catch pan, drain for catch pan,
etc.), but that's still only 20% more than the cost of the heater.

BTW, the instructions also suggested looping the cold water line down below
the top of the heater and back up.  Supposedly this helps keep the hot water
from convecting back into the cold water lines, and saves a bit of energy.
It does seem like the shutoff valve in the cold water line stays cooler now,
but perhaps that is just due to the extra pipe length.

-- Randall  

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 14:31:25 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <05EFB23F58EA44F1A3D5EC1C9B8F02F0@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<05EFB23F58EA44F1A3D5EC1C9B8F02F0@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001261331w6c6d3636r9640ca2922b24c1f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> > I have never heard of an earthquake in NJ...
>
> According to a geologist friend of mine, there has been at least one major
> earthquake in every state in the union.  NJ is pretty quiet though, the
> last
> one listed was only a 3.8 back in 1973.
> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/new_jersey/history.php
>
>
Northern NJ is actually pretty high risk earthquake area.   I sent a
response about this earlier, but I seem to have sent it to doug only, and
not the list.

NJ building codes do have requirements for earthquake resistance in new
construction, at least for commercial and public buildings; I don't know
about residential ones.  I wouldn't be at all surprised (nor would
geologists) by a magnitude 6 quake near NYC.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mpless at ucsd.edu  Tue Jan 26 14:39:30 2010
From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:39:30 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor low light "security" cameras
In-Reply-To: <4B5E5D55.3030009@earthlink.net> (from bk13@earthlink.net
	on Mon Jan 25 19:11:17 2010)
Message-ID: <1264541970l.391l.0l@servo.ucsd.edu>

Thanks for the info Brian. It looks like the product I'm
leaning towards works as you've described. Once I verify
a few more details (and the vendor receives more stock)
I might actually be able to figure out exactly what's
going on around my garage at night.  ;-)

--Marcus


On 01/25/2010 07:11:17 PM, Brian Kemp wrote:
> Marcus - All my motion activated recording has been at the
> recorder/PC end.  The camera continuously sends what it sees
> and the software recorder detects change between frames to
> determine if the motion threshold is crossed.  It only writes
> to the file when change is detected.  Think of it like a software
> controlled pause button.  Look for the ability to have a time
> stamp on the image as you can't determine when the critters are
> active based on start/stop time of the recording if it is motion
> activated.
>
> As an example, it your motion activated recording has the camera
> pointing at a street, you might get 30 minutes of recording an hour
> at commute time, 10 minutes of recording per hour at mid-day, and
> no recording in the wee hours of the morning.
>
> You have several options to help control file size including setting
> the resolution and number of frames per time period.  Normal video
> is 30 frames per second, but for just identifying critters, you could
> cut that down to 1 frame per second and significantly reduce the file
> size. Motion would be jerky, but you would see the critters.
>
> If you have a product in mind, see if you can download the manual to
> read about the options available to you.
>
> I have a Swann camera (obsolete model) that is decent -
> http://www.swannsecurity.com/
> Q-See is also a brand that has been around at least a few years -
> http://www.q-see.com/
>
> Brian

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 26 16:32:22 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:32:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001261331w6c6d3636r9640ca2922b24c1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <629787.6926.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Parts of Queens and the Bronx will be in big trouble if that happens...

Doug
--- On Tue, 1/26/10, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David
Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater
>
To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Cc: "Shop-Talk List"
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 4:31 PM
> On
Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:43 PM,
> Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> I have never heard of an earthquake in NJ...
> >
> > According to a
geologist friend of mine, there has
> been at least one major
> > earthquake
in every state in the union.  NJ is
> pretty quiet though, the
> > last
> >
one listed was only a 3.8 back in 1973.
> >
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/new_jersey/history.php
> >
> >
>
Northern NJ is actually pretty high risk earthquake
> area.   I sent a
>
response about this earlier, but I seem to have sent it to
> doug only, and
>
not the list.
> 
> NJ building codes do have requirements for earthquake
>
resistance in new
> construction, at least for commercial and public
buildings;
> I don't know
> about residential ones.  I wouldn't be at all
>
surprised (nor would
> geologists) by a magnitude 6 quake near NYC.

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 26 16:40:23 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:40:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124638.01c61b88@cox.net>
Message-ID: <FD3C5FEA9A3448DEAF5468A22688CAA8@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi John & All,

<snip>
> I had a hell-of-a time trying to sweat the fittings as the cutoff valve in 
> the yard,
> and the existing ones at the hot water leaked.
>
> This was before I learned the bread trick.
>
> John

    Of course you could be really wacko like I was - I used my oxy-acetylene 
torch to solder up some fittings - amazing how the extra heat vaporized the 
water faster than it collect and suck away the heat.  Of course I had to 
balance that with not melting the copper or overheating the solder but it 
worked for me.

    Great discussion!

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' <-- long term resto project
1965 Ford Falcon <-- shorter term (I hope!) repair project
various other transportation pods

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 26 20:14:23 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:14:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <4B5FAF8F.2010204@earthlink.net>

I couldn't find a code reference in a quick internet search, but I was 
told by an inspector that it was against code to have a hot water 
shutoff valve on a water heater (assuming a tank type), only a cold 
water shutoff valve that feeds the water heater.  Having a hot water 
shutoff that accidentally got closed may lead to over pressurization of 
the tank and an unexpected boom should the T&P valve fail.

Others on the list may want to consult with their local building 
inspector if considering adding a valve on the hot water side of their tank.

Brian

Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:
> I cut the hard copper lines and installed threaded fittings on the
> "stubs".  I then added a ball valve to each line, and a "flexible"
> copper line to the tank itself.  It made the installation easy (didn't
> have to try to line up the pipes exactly), and will be even easier next
> time (with the ball valves, I don't even have to turn off the water to
> the house, just close the valves and isolate tank for the rest of the
> plumbing).  The gas line was changed to a flexible one too...

From mdporter at dfn.com  Tue Jan 26 20:26:01 2010
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:26:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <4B5FAF8F.2010204@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<4B5FAF8F.2010204@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4B5FB249.50306@dfn.com>

Brian Kemp wrote:
> I couldn't find a code reference in a quick internet search, but I was 
> told by an inspector that it was against code to have a hot water 
> shutoff valve on a water heater (assuming a tank type), only a cold 
> water shutoff valve that feeds the water heater.  Having a hot water 
> shutoff that accidentally got closed may lead to over pressurization 
> of the tank and an unexpected boom should the T&P valve fail.
>
> Others on the list may want to consult with their local building 
> inspector if considering adding a valve on the hot water side of their 
> tank.
>

Umm, that sounds a bit strange, if only because there's no difference in 
having a valve closed immediately after the tank and a valve closed 
fifty feet away--in a closed system, the pressure is equal at all 
points. With all the ancillary valves in the system closed, same-same.



Cheers.



-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan 26 20:51:32 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:51:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261052450.4233@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl><4B5F0B5F.3060207@xxiii.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261052450.4233@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2D8474A747ED4823A999E69EC8C82B95@hpa1477c>

Mark,

The anode, only a few models, is integral to the hot water nipple.
Typically, it's a hex head.  

Once the pipe is removed from the nipple, the nipple unscrews just like any
other nipple, but it has a 3+ foot anode attached.

Sound bad, but it's simple.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Andy
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:54 AM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem

Howdy,

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Wayne wrote:
>> There certainly was one on my last gas water heater, but I don't see
where
>> it is on the Bradford White I have now.
>
> On some of them it's integrated into the cold water inlet tube.  See the
web 
> site at the top.  It has brand specific info.

I'll check the site as well, but if the anode is integrated into the water 
inlet, does that mean you really want threaded / flexible connections to 
the cold water supply to facilitate changing it?

Mark
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan 26 20:58:49 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:58:49 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73817@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <1FDFCD8D4FD74770A306DE1BF87B85BD@hpa1477c>

Tim,

You replace one 12 years ago.  There was a problem with dip tubes for
several years in the mid-late 90's.  The dip tube directs the cold water to
the bottom of the tank to prevent mixing.  The bad batch of dip tubes
degrades of time.  The "give-away" is the little bluish white chips which
accumulate in the filter screens.  I had one of these. 

See
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Troubleshooting/not-
enough-hot-water.html Dip tubes will cost less than $10 at an old fashioned
hardware store.  Anodes about the same.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mullen, Tim (IS)
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:41 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater

> I'm wondering when I replace it if I shouldn't do it with flexible
> water / gas connections to make it a little easier to replace 10 to
> 20 years from now, as well as to make it a little easier to install.

This is exactly what I did when I replaced my hot water heater about 12
years ago.

I cut the hard copper lines and installed threaded fittings on the
"stubs".  I then added a ball valve to each line, and a "flexible"
copper line to the tank itself.  It made the installation easy (didn't
have to try to line up the pipes exactly), and will be even easier next
time (with the ball valves, I don't even have to turn off the water to
the house, just close the valves and isolate tank for the rest of the
plumbing).  The gas line was changed to a flexible one too...

Speaking of next time, that will be soon.

I also live with Fairfax County water, and too much chlorine.  We
recently got a notice that our water was too high, it came about a week
after we started having problems with our hot water facets.  The facets
were "plugged" with white "plastic" like residue - I had to remove the
shower valve and clean it out, and the kitchen sink to pull out the
plastic chunks.  Last time this happened was when I had to replace the
original heater.  Once it starts, it just continues - whatever has
degraded in the tank is causing the plastic stuff to flake off and flow
down the pipes...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan 26 20:58:56 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:58:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem
In-Reply-To: <4B5F0B5F.3060207@xxiii.com>
References: <SNT123-W620108B7BCB1CFFE000C24E15F0@phx.gbl>
	<4B5F0B5F.3060207@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <1D3C057A1DF84E48A1A59383E585C6E5@hpa1477c>

Yes, that is one of the best for information, but his prices are wayyyy
toooo high.

Shop around before you buy.

Jack

Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water heater problem

See this web site for really good water heater info:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 26 21:19:52 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:19:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater (grand finale?)
In-Reply-To: <FD3C5FEA9A3448DEAF5468A22688CAA8@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Maybe we should end this thread with a bang.
Here is the classic MythBusters exploding water heater experiment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q

Doug

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Tue Jan 26 21:46:22 2010
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:46:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>,
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
Message-ID: <COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>

I could swear that I was told by someone knowledgeable that, at least in St.
Louis, consumers were not allowed to install their own water heaters.  This
person said you can buy them, but that you can expect a knock on your door
when you put the old one out for trash pick up.



Has anyone ever heard of something like this in other suburban areas?  I know
mine is getting pretty old and they certainly look within my ability to
install.  I have a gas unit, but I have worked with gas lines before and
haven't blown up a house yet.  I have also done my share of plumbing,
including sweating pipes.

> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:42:17 -0500
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> From: jblair1948 at cox.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater
>
> At 10:33 AM 1/26/2010, Mark Andy wrote:
>
> >I need to replace our water heater, as its leaking a bit under the
> tank. It was
> >apparently made in '91, so hey, whatever.
> >
> >Its currently mounted 'fixed' with the water pipes soldered in
> directly and a hard
> >gas line.
> >
> >I'm wondering when I replace it if I shouldn't do it with flexible
> water / gas
> >connections to make it a little easier to replace 10 to 20 years
> from now, as
> >well as to make it a little easier to install.
>
> Mark,
>
> I can't speak to the gas line, but I've installed 2 or 3 electric hot
> water heaters
> with the flexable lines. Makes the install and removal a lot easier. 2 of
the
> heaters I've done have been working for over 10 yrs with no leaks at either
> end of the flex lines.
>
> I personally like the flex lines!!!
>
> There's also a relatively new coupler called Shark bite. A quick
> disconnect coupling that you just push the copper pipe into. It
> takes a special tool (about $3)
> to insert into the coupling to remove a line. I think these go for
> about $5 each.
> For the DIYer they are fantastic. They didn't have these around when
> I replaced
> the last Hot water heater. But I did use them when I replaced the front and
> rear outside spickets. They also work very well!!!
>
> There's also a compression fitting you can use on sold pipes. I've used
them
> several years ago (before I found the shark bites) when I replaced the
manifold
> for the shower in the master bath room.
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone: (757) 495-8229
>
> 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
> 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III
> 65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin: www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsofts powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 26 22:07:35 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:07:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>,
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4B5FCA17.4090408@milleredp.com>

Jim Stone wrote:
> I could swear that I was told by someone knowledgeable that, at least in St.
> Louis, consumers were not allowed to install their own water heaters.  This
> person said you can buy them, but that you can expect a knock on your door
> when you put the old one out for trash pick up.

Around here you need a permit and an inspection but no one's going to 
stop you from doing it yourself.

John.

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan 26 22:51:41 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:51:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <4B5FCA17.4090408@milleredp.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>,
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net><COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
	<4B5FCA17.4090408@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <8501F4C795EE46E4A4B807EB98258DEC@hpa1477c>

Same here.  The key to doing it yourself, but skipping the expensive permit,
is to not leave the old tank on the curb for pickup, so the inspectors don't
know.  The only serious issues are the gas line hook up and the pressure
relief valve.  If you are not 100% comfortable with reconnecting a natural
gas line, have it inspected.  

My hot water heater is about 15 years old and due for another anode change
out in about 2 more years.  I also flush it out about every other year.
Just turn off the heat, open the bottom drain with a hose attached to it,
close off all the faucets and let the water flow under full system pressure,
until it's running clear.  I'll probably change out the pressure relief
valve on the next anode changeout too.  I just watched the MythBusters video
Doug posted.  Yikes!!!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Miller
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:08 PM
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater

Jim Stone wrote:
> I could swear that I was told by someone knowledgeable that, at least in
St.
> Louis, consumers were not allowed to install their own water heaters.
This
> person said you can buy them, but that you can expect a knock on your door
> when you put the old one out for trash pick up.

Around here you need a permit and an inspection but no one's going to 
stop you from doing it yourself.

John.
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan 26 23:01:56 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:01:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater (grand finale?)
In-Reply-To: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5A.A6.19307.3D6DF5B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Maybe we should end this thread with a bang.
> Here is the classic MythBusters exploding water heater experiment:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q

So now everyone is going to go check their TPR valve, right?

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 00:10:41 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:10:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <4B5FB249.50306@dfn.com>
Message-ID: <52.73.02041.1F6EF5B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Umm, that sounds a bit strange, if only because there's no 
> difference in 
> having a valve closed immediately after the tank and a valve closed 
> fifty feet away--

I agree entirely, and yet I've heard the same story Brian has.

But my experience with 'official' inspectors has been that they seem to
interpret the code however they feel like on any given day.  When we bought
our first house, the city inspector gave us a long list of things that "had"
to be corrected, including getting a building permit in order to reconnect
the bathroom sink.  Most of the things he wrote us up for were never done
(including the permit although I did replace the sink), and yet we got a
clean bill of health from the city inspector that came out when we sold the
place.  The buyer's inspector didn't mention any of those things either
(although he did find some other problems that the city inspector didn't).

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 00:28:22 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:28:22 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <8501F4C795EE46E4A4B807EB98258DEC@hpa1477c>
Message-ID: <9E.6B.19307.61BEF5B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Just turn off the heat, open the bottom drain with a hose 
> attached to it,

Maybe I'm just lucky ... I find that a single bucketful a few times a year
is enough to get clear water out.  So I just use the water heater drain to
fill the bucket for washing cars.

Randall

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jan 27 05:04:50 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:04:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater (grand
	finale?))
In-Reply-To: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>

On 1/26/2010 11:19 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
> Maybe we should end this thread with a bang.
> Here is the classic MythBusters exploding water heater experiment:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q

Anyone else loathe Mythbusters as much as me?!  Don't get me wrong -- I 
like "watching shit blow up" as much as the next guy and Kari is an 
extreme babe.  But it really ticks me off that they present their 
garbage as "science".  Testing everything brute-fore empirically may 
make for nice TV, but please don't try to pass it off as legit science.

C'mon -- how much welding did they do on that water heater tank to 
sustain over 300psi?  Even if the pressure relief valve was stuck (or 
welded over) any number of other weak points in the tank or home 
plumbing system would have blown out and vented it with much less drama.

And how did that tank launch itself so perfectly straight up?  Should 
have blown at a weld on the end caps or fittings and gone sideways-ish. 
  Did they create a weak spot right on the bottom center to blow out and 
launch it vertically?

Oh well -- it dun blowed up real good!

-Wayne

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jan 27 05:20:47 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:50:47 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grand	finale?))
In-Reply-To: <4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <OF3CA020E4.14B9CC68-ON642576B8.00437589-642576B8.00444DD8@mail.megageek.com>

I enjoy the show, but I agree with Wayne.  Many times there "science" is 
more magic.  Then, if they don't get the answers they want, they say it 
can't be done.

There is an episode when they were busting internet myths or something. 
They were looking at the now famous picture of the Donzi speed boat that 
smashed into the channel marker pole.  (The boats name was "temporary 
Insanity" or something.)  I'm sure you have seen the picture.  Here is a 
link...



www.guildlandis.com/images/boat-accident.jpg



They tried to replicate it with a model boat and couldn't.  They then 
concluded that it couldn't happen (not to mention that the photo isn't 
contested.)

Adam is fun to watch.  I would have married Kari in earlier seasons, but 
she is getting a little out of touch lately.  Jamie is a total D-bag.  You 
can tell he never does any real work.  His shirt is NEVER dirty. 

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Jan 27 06:54:38 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:54:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <2C8BE7BF256749E8A7B824B65C0541DE@mde.state.md.us>

Oh I don't know.  For some years I worked as a test lab engineer for Black 
and Decker over in their power tool accessory division.  A whole lot of 
testing is not as impressively rigorous as you'd think.  I recognize a whole 
lot of what they do.  They don't have a perfect record (and neither did we), 
they sometimes jump to conclusions, and ignore or miss key variables (like 
using scale models).  But all in all, it ain't bad.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:04 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater 
(grandfinale?))


> On 1/26/2010 11:19 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
>> Maybe we should end this thread with a bang.
>> Here is the classic MythBusters exploding water heater experiment:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q
>
> Anyone else loathe Mythbusters as much as me?!  Don't get me wrong -- I 
> like "watching shit blow up" as much as the next guy and Kari is an 
> extreme babe.  But it really ticks me off that they present their garbage 
> as "science".  Testing everything brute-fore empirically may make for nice 
> TV, but please don't try to pass it off as legit science.
>
> C'mon -- how much welding did they do on that water heater tank to sustain 
> over 300psi?  Even if the pressure relief valve was stuck (or welded over) 
> any number of other weak points in the tank or home plumbing system would 
> have blown out and vented it with much less drama.
>
> And how did that tank launch itself so perfectly straight up?  Should have 
> blown at a weld on the end caps or fittings and gone sideways-ish. Did 
> they create a weak spot right on the bottom center to blow out and launch 
> it vertically?
>
> Oh well -- it dun blowed up real good!
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as opposumking at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 07:09:20 2010
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:09:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater (grand
 finale?))
In-Reply-To: <OF3CA020E4.14B9CC68-ON642576B8.00437589-642576B8.00444DD8@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<OF3CA020E4.14B9CC68-ON642576B8.00437589-642576B8.00444DD8@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a1001270609t71831c46k1a13b861817f3a49@mail.gmail.com>

I think Jamie gets more done around the shop than Adam does.  Mostly
because Jamie does the work once and he does it right.   Adam spends
more time screwing around than working.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:20 AM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I enjoy the show, but I agree with Wayne.  Many times there "science" is
> more magic.  Then, if they don't get the answers they want, they say it
> can't be done.
>
> There is an episode when they were busting internet myths or something.
> They were looking at the now famous picture of the Donzi speed boat that
> smashed into the channel marker pole.  (The boats name was "temporary
> Insanity" or something.)  I'm sure you have seen the picture.  Here is a
> link...
>
>
>
> www.guildlandis.com/images/boat-accident.jpg
>
>
>
> They tried to replicate it with a model boat and couldn't.  They then
> concluded that it couldn't happen (not to mention that the photo isn't
> contested.)
>
> Adam is fun to watch.  I would have married Kari in earlier seasons, but
> she is getting a little out of touch lately.  Jamie is a total D-bag.  You
> can tell he never does any real work.  His shirt is NEVER dirty.
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Jan 27 07:17:12 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:17:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <9E.6B.19307.61BEF5B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <9E.6B.19307.61BEF5B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4BFFE026-72D9-4CFB-A438-A72A23C1F68F@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:28 AM, Randall wrote:

>> Just turn off the heat, open the bottom drain with a hose
>> attached to it,
>
> Maybe I'm just lucky ... I find that a single bucketful a few times  
> a year
> is enough to get clear water out.  So I just use the water heater  
> drain to
> fill the bucket for washing cars.

Plus, it exercises the valve, something that should be done quarterly  
with all shutoffs in the house.

As for the restrictions on DIY water heater, here in MA no one but a  
licenced plumber can touch any part of the domestic water or sewerage  
system. They won't give a permit to a non-licensed.

And the past year or two they extended that to electrical permits, and  
you also can no longer renovate a house for resale if you're not going  
to live in it.

jim

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Jan 27 08:52:48 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:52:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>

> And how did that tank launch itself so perfectly straight up?  Should have 
> blown at a weld on the end caps or fittings and gone sideways-ish. Did 
> they create a weak spot right on the bottom center to blow out and launch 
> it vertically?


Because the bottom of water heater tanks is concave, and as they noted, it 
became convex, it seems reasonable that the change from concave to convex at 
high pressures introduces lots of stress particularly around the edges, and 
thus the bottom becomes the weakest point.  Wonder if that's purposely 
designed in ?  Might be to direct a potential explosion, as there's less 
chance of hitting someone directly above rather than everywhere around the 
heater.  I bet the old riveted tanks often blew more spectacularly.

That said, I watch Mythbusters for Kari, who is indeed hotter in the older 
episodes.  Maybe due to married life and motherhood now ??

Karl 

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Jan 27 09:24:36 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:24:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001271112450.12577@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Wayne wrote:
> Anyone else loathe Mythbusters as much as me?!

    Probably more.  I got kicked off a Mythbusters forum after like 3 days, 
for asking similar questions.  If you want to be made nauseous I can dig 
up the link and you can check out the fawning sycophants who honestly 
believe MB can do no wrong.

    My beef is their standard conclusion that 'if we cannot do it, it 
cannot be done'.  Ummm, no.  My main example was from a movie myth show, 
where they tried to jump a car Dukes of Hazzard style.  They concluded 
( via a remote control full-size demo ) that it was impossible to jump a 
car 150' and survive, nevermind staying in control.

    This was _after_ Ken Block jumped a Subaru over 170' and drove away. 
Ah guys... it's not a myth anymore after someone has done it on TV ( and 
on the same channel! )

--
  David Hillman

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Jan 27 10:53:54 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:53:54 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001271112450.12577@itonami.pair.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001271112450.12577@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703D73C86@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

David Hillman
>
> My main example was from a movie myth show,
> where they tried to jump a car Dukes of Hazzard style.  They
> concluded ( via a remote control full-size demo ) that it was
> impossible to jump a car 150' and survive, nevermind staying
> in control.

I have a couple of gripes with them.  Along the lines of the above one,
I remember them doing a "James Bond Movie Myth" one where they tried to
jump the speed boat - they concluded that it couldn't be done, even
though there are films of the stunt man doing just that as they filmed
the original movie.

The other one that annoyed me was the air plane propeller cutting up the
other plane "myth".  I've read the accounts in the proper journals
describing the event and showing the two aircraft together (along with
the FAA accident investigation) - it was not a "myth" it has happened,
yet they present it as possibly false...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 11:01:40 2010
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:01:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com> <63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
Message-ID: <abb8688a1001271001l657ebe8y48eaa86e0725ddef@mail.gmail.com>

I always thought Scottie was hotter than Kari.  There is just
something about a woman who knows how to weld and breathes fire that
goes a lot further for me.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
> That said, I watch Mythbusters for Kari, who is indeed hotter in the older
> episodes.  Maybe due to married life and motherhood now ??
>
--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jan 27 11:07:20 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:37:20 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a1001271001l657ebe8y48eaa86e0725ddef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF3FF07B70.8D23BC9C-ON642576B8.00637924-642576B8.006407EB@mail.megageek.com>

No thanks.  She tried too hard.

I have to say (and it's something we can all agree on,)  the girl they 
have filling in for Kari TOTALLY SUCKS!!!

Since we were talking about this shoe, I just slingbox'ed into my Tivo to 
watch the last episode.  I almost couldn't watch it to the end.  They only 
did two myths, and the fill in "Kari" was so annoying.  It's so easy to 
see when someone doesn't understand what they are reading on cue cards.

And again, they "busted" a myth that they couldn't get a result on, WITH 
ONE TRIAL!!

I think their budget is getting used up on all their stupid fill sequences 
(firing a minigun and massive amounts of Amoirna Nitrate) and they don't 
have money to do better on the smaller myths.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



I always thought Scottie was hotter than Kari.  There is just
something about a woman who knows how to weld and breathes fire that
goes a lot further for me.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jan 27 11:16:19 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:16:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater (grand
 finale?))
In-Reply-To: <OF3CA020E4.14B9CC68-ON642576B8.00437589-642576B8.00444DD8@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF3CA020E4.14B9CC68-ON642576B8.00437589-642576B8.00444DD8@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B6082F3.5040808@xxiii.com>

On 1/27/2010 7:20 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Adam is fun to watch.  I would have married Kari in earlier seasons, but
> she is getting a little out of touch lately.  Jamie is a total D-bag.  You
> can tell he never does any real work.  His shirt is NEVER dirty.

Funny you should say that about Jamie.  Someone else thinks the exact 
same thing!   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFtFbb4q4Ms

-W

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jan 27 11:19:09 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:19:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
Message-ID: <952850.81330.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Kari fans will of course enjoy the scene where she shoots up a tree with a
Gatling gun:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY

If you think
Mythbusters is lame, you really shouldn't watch some of the other shows of
that genre, for example Smash Lab.

BTW, they did a sequel of the water heater
experiment, which was every bit as spectacular.

Doug

--- On Wed, 1/27/10,
Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> That said, I watch Mythbusters for
Kari, who is indeed
> hotter in the older episodes.  Maybe due to married
>
life and motherhood now ??
> 
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Jan 27 11:25:05 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:25:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <OF3FF07B70.8D23BC9C-ON642576B8.00637924-642576B8.006407EB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF3FF07B70.8D23BC9C-ON642576B8.00637924-642576B8.006407EB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001271318451.12577@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I think their budget is getting used up on all their stupid fill sequences
> (firing a minigun and massive amounts of Amoirna Nitrate) and they don't
> have money to do better on the smaller myths.

    I'd like to believe budget is the problem... but I can't.  How much 
would it cost to hire an intern to search the Internet and see if the 
"myth" in question is really a myth or not?  They're just intellectually 
lazy with their research and logic.

    And that begs the question, even when they have a properly-designed 
meaningful test, are they capable of accurately executing it?  Or, is it 
all just special effects, smoke, and noise?  If I'm just watching the 
latter, I can find that with a better plot on another channel.

my twopence,

--
  David Hillman

From chad at linuxeg.com  Wed Jan 27 12:04:35 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:04:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a1001271001l657ebe8y48eaa86e0725ddef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com> <63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
	<abb8688a1001271001l657ebe8y48eaa86e0725ddef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B608E43.9090201@linuxeg.com>


From shiples at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 12:13:38 2010
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:13:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001271318451.12577@itonami.pair.com>
References: <OF3FF07B70.8D23BC9C-ON642576B8.00637924-642576B8.006407EB@mail.megageek.com>
	<OF3FF07B70.8D23BC9C-ON642576B8.00637924-642576B8.006407EB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100127111150.0360fdf0@mail.comcast.net>

  Mythbusters?
It's TV.  It's entertainment, not graduate school.  Just be thankful it's 
not Psychic Mythbusters.  And critiquing the talking heads?  Come on people 
it's TV.  You're complaining about the content and then asking the 
important questions like who's hotter, Scottie or Kari?

Please, could we get back to Shop Talk, like do you watch Leno or 
Conan......in your shop?

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Wed Jan 27 12:58:17 2010
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:58:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20100127111150.0360fdf0@mail.comcast.net>
References: <OF3FF07B70.8D23BC9C-ON642576B8.00637924-642576B8.006407EB@mail.megageek.com>
	<OF3FF07B70.8D23BC9C-ON642576B8.00637924-642576B8.006407EB@mail.megageek.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20100127111150.0360fdf0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <429B4063-44E0-4D8D-A0EC-CBFD827B0B33@te-motorworks.com>

Yeah.  A good call on that Steve.

The thing everyone forgets is that Real Science and Real Engineering can be
Real Boring.   Not that I don't enjoy being an engineer, but I know better
than to talk about it at a party.

-vin


On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:13 PM, Steve Shipley wrote:

> Mythbusters?
> It's TV.  It's entertainment, not graduate school.  Just be thankful it's
> not Psychic Mythbusters.  And critiquing the talking heads?  Come on people
> it's TV.  You're complaining about the content and then asking the
> important questions like who's hotter, Scottie or Kari?
>
> Please, could we get back to Shop Talk, like do you watch Leno or
> Conan......in your shop?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 14:07:25 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:07:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
Message-ID: <22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>

> Wonder if that's purposely 
> designed in ?  Might be to direct a potential explosion,

Makes sense to me.  And why else would the bottom be concave on an electric
heater?  Normally pressure vessels are convex, to distribute the forces
better.

-- Randall  

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 14:09:55 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:09:55 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <9817636684C446878B2CEF62C61B51E0@jdnet.deere.com>

> Anyone else loathe Mythbusters as much as me?!

Honestly, I've never watched enough to 'loathe'.  Why would you keep
watching once you had even reached mild disinterest?

Much more fun to go into the shop and make some chips!

-- Randall  

From chad at linuxeg.com  Wed Jan 27 14:14:06 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:14:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Why Can't I Reply?
Message-ID: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>

When I reply - and maybe post which means no one will every see this -
I get either an error warning about "permission" or my reply wording is 
deleted
and only the verbiage added by the list server sent; any ideas?
chad

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 14:30:56 2010
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:30:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <650990291.17942291264627856893.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

This post arrived unmolested.  Check the address when you reply - is it really <shop-talk at autox.team.net>?

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad on LEG" <chad at linuxeg.com>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:14:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [Shop-talk] Why Can't I Reply?

When I reply - and maybe post which means no one will every see this -
I get either an error warning about "permission" or my reply wording is 
deleted
and only the verbiage added by the list server sent; any ideas?
chad

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 14:31:35 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:31:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
	<22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4B60B0B7.7040206@comcast.net>

On 1/27/2010 4:07 PM, Randall wrote:
>> Wonder if that's purposely
>> designed in ?  Might be to direct a potential explosion,
>>      
> Makes sense to me.  And why else would the bottom be concave on an electric
> heater?  Normally pressure vessels are convex, to distribute the forces
> better.
>
> -- Randall
>    

Concaved also distributes forces, outward toward the rim.  If the bottom 
were flat, pressures would deform it to convexed and the bottom would 
pull away from the rim.  With a concaved bottom, pressures would deform 
it towards flat and push the rim outwards into the side walls.  And it 
will stand.

Peter T.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Jan 27 14:34:29 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:34:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>,
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271633370.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Jim Stone wrote:
> I could swear that I was told by someone knowledgeable that, at least in 
> St. Louis, consumers were not allowed to install their own water 
> heaters.  This person said you can buy them, but that you can expect a 
> knock on your door when you put the old one out for trash pick up.

So what you're saying is that I need to go throw the old one in a ravine 
at night?

Mark

(ok, mostly I'm kidding.  But not about the "dispose of the old one in a 
way that an offical wouldn't see" part)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 14:38:02 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:38:02 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <4B60B0B7.7040206@comcast.net>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
	<22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4B60B0B7.7040206@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1CC7618DB56D44CDBAF7A70DC5EF3B45@jdnet.deere.com>

> Concaved also distributes forces, outward toward the rim.

Yes, but the rim is the weak spot.  Note on the Mythbusters video how the
end plate is intact, but separated at the corner between it and the walls.
The best shape for a pressure vessel is a sphere.

-- Randall  

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Jan 27 14:44:53 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:44:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
	<22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271643380.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Randall wrote:
>> Wonder if that's purposely
>> designed in ?  Might be to direct a potential explosion,
>
> Makes sense to me.  And why else would the bottom be concave on an 
> electric heater?  Normally pressure vessels are convex, to distribute 
> the forces better.

I dunno.  I bet I'm not alone in having my water heater in the basement. 
I'd like it a heck of a lot better if it exploded sideways, not 
vertically.

And I like Mythbusters just fine, even when I watch it and see flaws in 
the approach to something.  :-)

Mark

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 14:52:43 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:52:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271643380.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2117060.17136371264629163562.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

If mine blows it will run srtaight into the bottom of my refridgerator. That ought to slow it down a little. Nothing above that but attic. 

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 14:52:58 2010
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:52:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <1CC7618DB56D44CDBAF7A70DC5EF3B45@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
	<22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4B60B0B7.7040206@comcast.net>
	<1CC7618DB56D44CDBAF7A70DC5EF3B45@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4B60B5BA.305@comcast.net>

On 1/27/2010 4:38 PM, Randall wrote:
>> Concaved also distributes forces, outward toward the rim.
>>      
> Yes, but the rim is the weak spot.  Note on the Mythbusters video how the
> end plate is intact, but separated at the corner between it and the walls.
> The best shape for a pressure vessel is a sphere.
>    
Agreed, but a water heater isn't supposed to pressurized to failure, 
just moderate pressure.  Enough pressure that a flat bottom would deform 
and pull away from the sidewalls.  So making the bottom concaved, like 
an aerosol can, means it will hold its general shape and stand, under 
designed pressure.

Peter T.
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jan 27 14:55:23 2010
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:55:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <2117060.17136371264629163562.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2117060.17136371264629163562.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <310483.9374.qm@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Nothing like having the water heater explode and shoot upward boring a hole in
the floor above so that the refrigerator then ends up in the basement.  :)
Randy

 
To: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
Cc: Shop Talk List
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 3:52:43 PM
Subject: Re:
[Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater (grandfinale?))

If
mine blows it will run srtaight into the bottom of my refridgerator. That
ought to slow it down a little. Nothing above that but attic. 

Phil Ethier
West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html

Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are
subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From mpless at ucsd.edu  Wed Jan 27 14:58:58 2010
From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:58:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com> (from chad@linuxeg.com on
	Wed Jan 27 13:14:06 2010)
References: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <1264629538l.1895l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu>

If your mail client tries to make the body of every email
an "attachment" then I suspect the server might be removing
the "attachment". I've seen this a lot on mailing lists
that don't allow attachments.

--Marcus


On 01/27/2010 01:14:06 PM, Chad on LEG wrote:
> When I reply - and maybe post which means no one will every see this
> -
> I get either an error warning about "permission" or my reply wording
> is
> deleted
> and only the verbiage added by the list server sent; any ideas?
> chad

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jan 27 15:12:30 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:12:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <9817636684C446878B2CEF62C61B51E0@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<9817636684C446878B2CEF62C61B51E0@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4B60BA4E.60107@xxiii.com>

On 1/27/2010 4:09 PM, Randall wrote:
>> Anyone else loathe Mythbusters as much as me?!
>
> Honestly, I've never watched enough to 'loathe'.  Why would you keep
> watching once you had even reached mild disinterest?

'Cause the wife finds it amusing and watches it, so I end up catching a 
lot anyways.

> Much more fun to go into the shop and make some chips!

Or blow stuff up real good!  Hehe... err... I don't do that.  Anymore.

-W

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jan 27 15:17:14 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:17:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271633370.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>,
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271633370.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4B60BB6A.8080409@xxiii.com>

On 1/27/2010 4:34 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
> So what you're saying is that I need to go throw the old one in a ravine
> at night?
> Mark
> (ok, mostly I'm kidding. But not about the "dispose of the old one in a
> way that an offical wouldn't see" part)

Around here (western NC) the county dump takes water heaters and "white 
goods" (major appliances) for free.  Or the scrap metal years PAY about 
$4 - $6 per hundred pounds.  It's ok that it's mixed metals with plastic 
and insulation and stuff.  I think it all goes to some kind of shredding 
plant that also processes junk cars.  They're somehow able to chop it 
into little bits and separate materials.

-Wayne

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 27 16:31:05 2010
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:31:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271633370.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>,
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271633370.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <036d01ca9fa8$ce26eca0$6a74c5e0$@net>

Where we lived before they told us that the homeowner was not allowed to
replace the water heater unless he had lived in the house for more than a
year.  I guess you get smarter and more capable if you've been in the house
longer - Duh - and these are the same people who will be determining our
medical needs:-O

C-Ya

Ron

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Jan 27 17:09:49 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:09:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <036d01ca9fa8$ce26eca0$6a74c5e0$@net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>,
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271633370.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<036d01ca9fa8$ce26eca0$6a74c5e0$@net>
Message-ID: <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com>

<< ...and these are the same people who will be determining our
medical needs >>

Yep Ron, and OMG !!!!

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Jan 27 17:18:55 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:18:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>
References: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <4B60D7EF.9030209@justbrits.com>

<<I get either an error warning about "permission" or my reply
wording is deleted and only the verbiage added by the list
server sent; any ideas? >>

Do you ALWAYS "send" in Plain Text, Chad ??
You should [if not] ?!?

The "program" NOT "ListServ" is set-up to reject
HTML mail(s) and gives that 'warning'.

Ed

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 17:20:47 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:20:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <4B60B5BA.305@comcast.net>
References: <431467.32505.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B602BE2.9070304@xxiii.com>
	<63351B942AE645EAB7B6DE6DB241BC2A@KARL>
	<22BF9620FE5C41609BDF34892DE17816@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4B60B0B7.7040206@comcast.net>
	<1CC7618DB56D44CDBAF7A70DC5EF3B45@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4B60B5BA.305@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B64B19565F3940048B435D1D841170C5@jdnet.deere.com>

> So 
> making the bottom concaved, like an aerosol can, means it 
> will hold its general shape and stand, under designed pressure.

Ok, I think I see your point.  That's another reason the bottom might be
concave, other than worrying about what happens if it does get pressurized
to bursting.

Assuming of course it isn't on legs anyway, to provide room for insulation.

-- Randall  

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 17:23:54 2010
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:23:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <73162034.18027931264638234583.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

No, these people aren't determining our medical needs - they are attempting to put rules in place for those who are deciding that we don't have any medical needs.

Donald.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shop at \" Just Brits \"" <shop at justbrits.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:09:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater

<< ...and these are the same people who will be determining our
medical needs >>

Yep Ron, and OMG !!!!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 17:55:39 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:55:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <73162034.18027931264638234583.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com>
	<73162034.18027931264638234583.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001271655n7ae9e990he001b74b33b98ff4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net>wrote:

> No, these people aren't determining our medical needs - they are attempting
> to put rules in place for those who are deciding that we don't have any
> medical needs.
>
>
Political nonsense has no place on this list.  If you care to discuss it,
take it somewhere it belongs.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 18:18:05 2010
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:18:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001271655n7ae9e990he001b74b33b98ff4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <405536575.18053141264641485268.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Agreed.

Donald.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: "Donald H Locker" <dhlocker at comcast.net>
Cc: sales at justbrits.com, shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:55:39 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net>wrote:

> No, these people aren't determining our medical needs - they are attempting
> to put rules in place for those who are deciding that we don't have any
> medical needs.
>
>
Political nonsense has no place on this list.  If you care to discuss it,
take it somewhere it belongs.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From 57healey at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 18:24:39 2010
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:24:39 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <310483.9374.qm@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2117060.17136371264629163562.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<310483.9374.qm@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20163A44-BF8B-4B30-A803-F8E3E3DEF917@Gmail.com>

Mine is in the garage about 2 feet from the Healey.  Hopefully I can  
find the money to replace with a tankless unit soon

Sent from my iPod


On Jan 27, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Rand E <mistertwo at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Nothing like having the water heater explode and shoot upward boring  
> a hole in
> the floor above so that the refrigerator then ends up in the  
> basement.  :)
> Randy
>
>
> To: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
> Cc: Shop Talk List
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 3:52:43 PM
> Subject: Re:
> [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater  
> (grandfinale?))
>
> If
> mine blows it will run srtaight into the bottom of my refridgerator.  
> That
> ought to slow it down a little. Nothing above that but attic.
>
> Phil Ethier
> West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
> 1979 Caterham 7
> 1994 Miata C-package
> 2004 Suburban 8.1
> 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
> http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
> http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net
> http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are
> subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as 57healey at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jan 27 18:27:11 2010
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:27:11 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100126124014.01c60220@cox.net>
	<COL115-W56347AF8FF68A47C495E6CC5D0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001271633370.21342@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<036d01ca9fa8$ce26eca0$6a74c5e0$@net> <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <20100128012711.GC13080@slack.lne.com>

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 06:09:49PM -0600, Shop at  Just Brits  wrote:
> << ...and these are the same people who will be determining our
> medical needs >>
> 
> Yep Ron, and OMG !!!!

Could we not have a political discussion on this list?
There's plenty of other places to do that.


Eric

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 18:28:26 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:28:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001271655n7ae9e990he001b74b33b98ff4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com>
	<73162034.18027931264638234583.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<2400a5d41001271655n7ae9e990he001b74b33b98ff4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385361001271728r4fe2d394i2e2fdec01038fbeb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:55 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:


> Political nonsense has no place on this list.


*Right "political nonsense" will be amply demonstrated on most every*
*TV channel starting about 8 PM CST.*

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Wed Jan 27 18:28:35 2010
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:28:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
References: <405536575.18053141264641485268.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9444E6D8280747178090F2F2C03ED354@Dell9200>

Right, this list is all about water heaters, Mythbusters and Kari's rear 
end!  :)





Agreed.

Donald.

> No, these people aren't determining our medical needs - they are 
> attempting
> to put rules in place for those who are deciding that we don't have any
> medical needs.
>
>
Political nonsense has no place on this list.  If you care to discuss it,
take it somewhere it belongs.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From koblinger at verizon.net  Wed Jan 27 18:43:11 2010
From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:43:11 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <9444E6D8280747178090F2F2C03ED354@Dell9200>
References: <405536575.18053141264641485268.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<9444E6D8280747178090F2F2C03ED354@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <4B60EBAE.20104@verizon.net>

Not necessarily in that order.....

(ducks and runs)
Kurt O.

Mark wrote:
> Right, this list is all about water heaters, Mythbusters and Kari's rear 
> end!  :)
>
>
>
>
>
> Agreed.
>
> Donald.
>
>   
>> No, these people aren't determining our medical needs - they are 
>> attempting
>> to put rules in place for those who are deciding that we don't have any
>> medical needs.
>>
>>
>>     
> Political nonsense has no place on this list.  If you care to discuss it,
> take it somewhere it belongs.

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Jan 27 18:43:42 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:43:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant]
In-Reply-To: <20163A44-BF8B-4B30-A803-F8E3E3DEF917@Gmail.com>
References: <2117060.17136371264629163562.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<310483.9374.qm@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20163A44-BF8B-4B30-A803-F8E3E3DEF917@Gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B60EBCE.5040107@justbrits.com>

/lYFRI7: Permission denied

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jan 27 18:56:50 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:56:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>

All this talk about hot water heaters.  A couple of days ago we ran out of hot
water so I went down and checked the resistance of the 2 heating elements
to make sure none were burned out, and drained the sediment out of the tank.

So today, I'm certain this morning the water pressure at the faucet 
in the kitchen
was normal.  After working on stripping the vinyl floor & glue in the 
breakfact
nook, I went to clean up in the kitchen.  When I turned on the faucet, there
was hardly any water coming out.  A couple hours later it was still the same.
But when I checked the faucets at the back of the house, they seemed to have
a lot more water coming out.

The faucet is one of those single handle type with the removable 
nozzel or head.
I took the nozzel off the flexable hose and there was possibly a 
little more water
coming out of the hose.  I disassembled the head and cleaned the atomizer.
That helped some.  But I just am not getting the flow that I have been.

I tried turning off and back on the cut off under the sink.  No 
difference.  It
hasn't been below freezing here now in over a week.  So I'm stumped.

Anyone have any other ideas?  I really don't want to have to pull & replace the
cut off valve, but I think that may be my next step.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jan 27 19:40:07 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:10:07 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <4B60EBAE.20104@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <OF7EE3D762.1D09F58D-ON642576B9.000EFCC7-642576B9.000F2471@mail.megageek.com>

Mark wrote:
> Right, this list is all about water heaters, Mythbusters and Kari's rear 

> end!  :)


<Homer Simpson voice on>

HUMMMMMM  Kari's rear end!

<Homer Simpson voice off>

(I've been in the Middle East, WAY TOO long!)  8>(


Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Jan 27 19:50:12 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:50:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>
Message-ID: <97CC3257-A850-49E0-831D-1F20404FCBD9@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 27, 2010, at 8:56 PM, John T. Blair wrote:
>
>
> The faucet is one of those single handle type with the removable  
> nozzel or head.
> I took the nozzel off the flexable hose and there was possibly a  
> little more water
> coming out of the hose.  I disassembled the head and cleaned the  
> atomizer.
> That helped some.  But I just am not getting the flow that I have  
> been.
>
> Anyone have any other ideas?  I really don't want to have to pull &  
> replace the
> cut off valve, but I think that may be my next step.

Are you getting equally poor hot and cold water pressure out of that  
faucet?

jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 19:56:22 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:56:22 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>
Message-ID: <6FE48873C03C4D0AB69ED2EC231C7EEF@jdnet.deere.com>

> Anyone have any other ideas?  I really don't want to have to 
> pull & replace the cut off valve, but I think that may be my 
> next step.

I'd be more inclined to pull the faucet apart first.  See if there isn't a
flake of sediment caught in the internal passages.  Not all the same I
suppose, but mine have smaller passages through the seal that rides against
the ball than anywhere else (except the screen at the aerator).

-- Randall  

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jan 27 20:42:48 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:42:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>
Message-ID: <406592.43808.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A few years ago our shower suddenly started having very low hot water flow.  I
checked everything and could find no reason.  Finally, when I took apart the
valve cartridge assembly, I found a little glob of solder that had apparently
made its way up the pipes from some over-soldered joint.

Fortunately the
cartridge was easy to take apart, but if it had been an old style faucet
valve, I would have had to unsolder the valve to remove the blockage.

Doug
--- On Wed, 1/27/10, John T. Blair <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> 
> Anyone
have any other ideas?  I really don't want to
> have to pull & replace the
>
cut off valve, but I think that may be my next step.

From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Jan 27 21:10:27 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:10:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001271655n7ae9e990he001b74b33b98ff4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com>
	<73162034.18027931264638234583.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<2400a5d41001271655n7ae9e990he001b74b33b98ff4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B610E33.2060701@bradakis.com>

> Political nonsense has no place on this list.  If you care to discuss it,
> take it somewhere it belongs

At times I am tempted to subscribe each and every one of the Team.Net 
folks to
the-local at autox.team.net so that the stupid, knee jerk fascists and the 
stupid
knee jerk socialists can all carry on an enlightened, well informed 
discussion.

Subscribe here:

http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/the-local

Vent to your heart's content.


mjb.

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Wed Jan 27 21:25:52 2010
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:25:52 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
References: <4B60D5CD.1070408@justbrits.com><73162034.18027931264638234583.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><2400a5d41001271655n7ae9e990he001b74b33b98ff4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B610E33.2060701@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <EC8B305068074F2A955B601C57354CAB@Dell9200>

Mark, do you have a place for us gun toting, right wing, redneck, stupid, 
Glenn Beck loving, tea baggers?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark J Bradakis" <mark at bradakis.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more water heater


> Political nonsense has no place on this list.  If you care to discuss it,
> take it somewhere it belongs

At times I am tempted to subscribe each and every one of the Team.Net
folks to
the-local at autox.team.net so that the stupid, knee jerk fascists and the
stupid
knee jerk socialists can all carry on an enlightened, well informed
discussion.

Subscribe here:

http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/the-local

Vent to your heart's content.


mjb.
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as mark at nashvilletn.org

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Jan 27 21:34:38 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:34:38 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>
References: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <4B6113DE.5020004@bradakis.com>

I should probably write up something about this like I did for setting
the nomail option when heading off on vacation.  RealSoonNow.

In general, assuming the message is sent to the proper address from a
subscribed address it will go through to the list.  Exceptions are when
it is too large, usually because people can not figure out how to highlight
and delete stuff that doesn't need to be sent out once again.  Or it may
show up as an empty message, or contain a line something like

/xiu0iqwy:  permission denied


In these cases it is the filter that all messages to Team.Net pass through.
The filter tries its best to convert all sorts of random stuff from who
knows what sort of brain dead software into plain, readable text.  For
the most part it works pretty well, stripping out useless. bloated RTF
crap from Microsoft, malformed HTML from AOL and various sources
and other such nonsense.   Ever notice those posts where there are odd
characters like 'B' in places you wouldn't expect it?  Standards are
great, there are so many to choose from ;-)

If you keep getting such behavior when posting, dig through the
documentation for your mail program and try to send in plain text.
[ This stuff isn't an issue with http://www.team.net/forums ]

If plain text isn't a readily apparent option, sometimes simply changing
fonts can remove the introductory setup crap that the filter can't
understand and will let it send your message through.

mjb.

From chad at linuxeg.com  Wed Jan 27 21:51:02 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:51:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] TEST REPLY   Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <4B60D7EF.9030209@justbrits.com>
References: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com>
  <4B60D7EF.9030209@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <4B6117B6.7030503@linuxeg.com>

This is a test, if this was not a test I would actually say something 
interesting.
Perhaps it's my sig file that's causing the problem so I deleted it along
with the the text from the message to which I'm replying so here goes.
thanks,
chad

From tvacc at lotusowners.com  Wed Jan 27 21:59:25 2010
From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:59:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] TEST REPLY   Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <3943E4B608E84B66BD6D8038E0E720E1@amicroinc.local>
References: <4B60AC9E.2090601@linuxeg.com> <4B60D7EF.9030209@justbrits.com>
	<3943E4B608E84B66BD6D8038E0E720E1@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <64EFFBF2869440778AE582530325DBC8@amicroinc.local>

I have to hit reply to all and sometimes it gets through...but most times
not.
I just use Outlook 2003, nothing fancy.

I am posting this but I doubt it will end up on the list.  I just have
stopped replying to anything.  I sub to about 50 lists and this is the only
one I have trouble with.

Tony Vaccaro

LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
www.lotusowners.com
716-861-1412

This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data
or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from
disclosure.  If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information
contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited.  If
you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately
notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all
attachments.


 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4811 (20100127) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jan 27 22:16:16 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:46:16 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] TEST REPLY   Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <64EFFBF2869440778AE582530325DBC8@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <OFF50C6073.79E48AB0-ON642576B9.001C646E-642576B9.001D6FB4@mail.megageek.com>

First off when you reply, you need to make sure that you remove 
"shop-talk-bounces at a*x.team.net" from the return addresses.  (I remove a 
bit so this message doesn't bounce.)

Also, the reason that this list is different is that the MOD here makes a 
valiant effort to reduce spam and other problems most list admins don't 
spend time/care about.

Also, notice there is no advertising here (like on EVERY yahoo and google 
group.)

This is one of the last "Old School" lists, and I think it's awesome.  I'm 
just glad to be a part of it! 8>)

BTW, don't forget to contribute to the list to defer the costs...

Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

Suggested annual donation $12.96



Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 27 22:54:34 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:54:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <EC8B305068074F2A955B601C57354CAB@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <D6.30.01403.996216B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Mark, do you have a place for us gun toting, right wing, 
> redneck, stupid, 
> Glenn Beck loving, tea baggers?

Yup, same place as for the others.  Got some room for some of us stupid
knee-jerk progressives, too.

http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/the-local

Randall

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jan 27 23:11:54 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:41:54 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water heater
 (grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <952850.81330.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OFA58B7189.449D23A0-ON642576B9.00223430-642576B9.00228783@mail.megageek.com>

Doug writes...

>Kari fans will of course enjoy the scene where she shoots up a tree with 
a
>Gatling gun:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY
>If you think
>Mythbusters is lame, you really shouldn't watch some of the other shows 
of
>that genre, for example Smash Lab.


I remember this episode.  I have personally cut down saplings with a M240B 
and removed limbs with an M4.

BTW, I also agree the other shows are totally unwatchable.  I hate the 
fact that these TV shows turn in to "interpersonal dramas" instead of 
instructional shows with some entertainment value.  FWIW, most of these 
shows should be cut down to 30mins and lose all the "interpersonal" 
relations.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From shiples at comcast.net  Wed Jan 27 23:26:47 2010
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:26:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <D6.30.01403.996216B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <EC8B305068074F2A955B601C57354CAB@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100127222235.03642f00@mail.comcast.net>

At 09:54 PM 1/27/2010 -0800, Randall wrote:
> > Mark, do you have a place for us gun toting, right wing,
> > redneck, stupid,
> > Glenn Beck loving, tea baggers?
>
>Yup, same place as for the others.  Got some room for some of us stupid
>knee-jerk progressives, too.
>
>http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/the-local

Amen.

Send the political discussions and the religious discussions and the she gives
me a boner discussions to the same place.

Yeah, I have an opinion on these so I care not for what you believe.

Shop talk is where we all become rational.  Truth is in your water heater.

From chad at linuxeg.com  Wed Jan 27 23:28:42 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:28:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] TEST REPLY   with sig
In-Reply-To: <OFF50C6073.79E48AB0-ON642576B9.001C646E-642576B9.001D6FB4@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF50C6073.79E48AB0-ON642576B9.001C646E-642576B9.001D6FB4@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B612E9A.1090504@linuxeg.com>

Check will be in the mail later today
thanks all
chad

>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not 
care who gets the credit." 
Harry S. Truman

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jan 28 05:50:22 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:50:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <97CC3257-A850-49E0-831D-1F20404FCBD9@groupwbench.org>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>
	<97CC3257-A850-49E0-831D-1F20404FCBD9@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100128074800.01c7ecc8@cox.net>

At 09:50 PM 1/27/2010, Jim Franklin wrote:

 >>The faucet is one of those single handle type with the removable  nozzel or
 >head.  I took the nozzel off the flexable hose and there was 
possibly a  little
 >>more water coming out of the hose.  I disassembled the head and cleaned
 >>the  atomizer.  That helped some.  But I just am not getting the 
flow that I
 >>have  been.

 >Are you getting equally poor hot and cold water pressure out of that  faucet?

Jim,

Yes I am, getting poor water flow out of both hot and cold settings.  But only
at this kitchen faucet.

I was cleaning the cats bowls this morning to feed them, and still have the
problem.


John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Thu Jan 28 07:29:42 2010
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:29:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100128074800.01c7ecc8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <A430AE6044464CC2B8351131975E8A58@Digilink1>

Sounds like it is time to install a new cartridge assembly.....the biggest
issue is finding the proper one for your unit.

From marka at maracing.com  Thu Jan 28 07:57:21 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:57:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100128074800.01c7ecc8@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100127204938.02081348@cox.net>
	<97CC3257-A850-49E0-831D-1F20404FCBD9@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100128074800.01c7ecc8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001280954250.16957@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
> Yes I am, getting poor water flow out of both hot and cold settings. 
> But only at this kitchen faucet.
>
> I was cleaning the cats bowls this morning to feed them, and still have the
> problem.

I don't know if it will help you, but we've had similar issues with a Moen 
faucet that has a single handle.  Moen has a pretty good replacement 
policy, so I called them up, told them I bought it three years ago or so, 
and they sent me a new cartridge kit.

All my problems were solved.

I couldn't tell you what exactly the problem really was.  The one that was 
in there was dirty, but even after cleaning it didn't stay working well. 
The new one has been great for six months or so.

Mark

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Thu Jan 28 08:06:12 2010
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:06:12 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water
 heater(grandfinale?))
In-Reply-To: <OFA58B7189.449D23A0-ON642576B9.00223430-642576B9.00228783@mail.megageek.com>
References: <952850.81330.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<OFA58B7189.449D23A0-ON642576B9.00223430-642576B9.00228783@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B29@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>

I have never cut down a tree with bullets but I found that if you tie a clove
hitch around a tree with det cord it does a "bang up job" of tree/limb removal
:)

Stuart.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-
> bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:12 PM
> To: Shop Talk List
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mythbusters sucks! [rant] (was: water
> heater(grandfinale?))
>
> Doug writes...
>
> >Kari fans will of course enjoy the scene where she shoots up a tree
> with
> a
> >Gatling gun:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY
> >If you think
> >Mythbusters is lame, you really shouldn't watch some of the other
> shows
> of
> >that genre, for example Smash Lab.
>
>
> I remember this episode.  I have personally cut down saplings with a
> M240B
> and removed limbs with an M4.
>
> BTW, I also agree the other shows are totally unwatchable.  I hate the
> fact that these TV shows turn in to "interpersonal dramas" instead of
> instructional shows with some entertainment value.  FWIW, most of these
> shows should be cut down to 30mins and lose all the "interpersonal"
> relations.
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a
> rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as stuart.a.galt at boeing.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Thu Jan 28 08:45:44 2010
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:45:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
Message-ID: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>

Sorry for asking a shop related question...

I have a garage with 13.5' ceilings and am currently lighting it with cheapo 4
ft fluorescent lights.  The problem that I have is that as soon as  I get down
off the ladder from replacing a tube I need to move the ladder somewhere else
and replace another one.  I need to find a different lighting option because I
cannot keep up!  My ideal alternative would provide lots of light, not cost an
arm/leg to run, be heat/cold tolerant (garage is not heated) and not require
me to spend all my time going up/down a ladder.   I have 18 light fixtures on
4 different circuits (the garage is 2400 sq ft).

Would LED lighting be useable for this?  I know it would be expensive but I
would hope that they would last long enough that I would not be spend all my
time on the ladder.  Also I would expect it to tolerate the cold and the
lights would come on when it is below freezing in the garage.  Would better
fluorescent fixtures solve my problem?

Stuart.

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jan 28 09:03:29 2010
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:03:29 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
Message-ID: <20100128.110329.4137.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

I was able to find cheap metal halide lighting.  At least in the Atlanta area,
there were several sources for recycled high bay type lighting.  I was able to
get the transformer, bulb, and plastic diffuser for around $40 each.  They
replaced any that didn't work and even threw in a handfull of spare bulbs.  I
don't recall the power demand - may be why they were replaced in favor of
efficiency...
But they give great light!  They do take a moment or two to come up from
cold..
Matt Barre
Columbus, GA


Stuart wrote:
I need to find a different lighting option because I
cannot keep up!  My ideal alternative would provide lots of light, not cost
an
arm/leg to run, be heat/cold tolerant (garage is not heated) and not require
me to spend all my time going up/down a ladder.   I have 18 light fixtures on
4 different circuits (the garage is 2400 sq ft).
____________________________________________________________
Senior Assisted Living
Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. Click
now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=7NqzCDRTzs0vdry2X5aUmQAAJ1Bdm0m
GPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASUQAAAAA=

From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com  Thu Jan 28 09:21:29 2010
From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:21:29 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>

Take a look at T-8 fluorescent fixtures.  I had old 8' fixtures in my
shop that I supplemented them with 400 W metal halide ones.  The metal
halides are good and put out a lot of light, yet they have 'issues'.
They are slow to come on, they are a very bright point source of light
(don't look up at them), and they dim over time.  They put out about 60%
of the rated output as they age.

The T-8 lamps have a 20,000 hour average life.  They come on instantly
and work in cold weather.  Their light output drops only about 2% over
their rated 20,000 hour life.

I replaced the metal halides with fixtures that have 6 bulbs that are 4'
long.  The fixtures have a chrome reflector behind the bulbs that boosts
the light output.  They provide a much more even light than the metal
halides and are much easier on the eye.  Another benefit of the T-8
bulbs is the availability of different color temperature bulbs.  I like
the daylight balanced bulbs in my shop. I bought the fixtures at a local
industrial supply shop for about $120 each with the bulbs.

They are very energy efficient and that's why a lot of the big box
stores have replaced the metal halide fixtures with either T-8 or T-5
fixtures.  The T-5s are somewhat better for the various specs but tend
to cost more, especially for the replacement bulbs.

Gil Fuqua
Nashville

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Galt, Stuart A
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:46 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting

Sorry for asking a shop related question...

I have a garage with 13.5' ceilings and am currently lighting it with
cheapo 4
ft fluorescent lights.  The problem that I have is that as soon as  I
get down
off the ladder from replacing a tube I need to move the ladder somewhere
else
and replace another one.  I need to find a different lighting option
because I
cannot keep up!  My ideal alternative would provide lots of light, not
cost an
arm/leg to run, be heat/cold tolerant (garage is not heated) and not
require
me to spend all my time going up/down a ladder.   I have 18 light
fixtures on
4 different circuits (the garage is 2400 sq ft).

Would LED lighting be useable for this?  I know it would be expensive
but I
would hope that they would last long enough that I would not be spend
all my
time on the ladder.  Also I would expect it to tolerate the cold and the
lights would come on when it is below freezing in the garage.  Would
better
fluorescent fixtures solve my problem?

Stuart.
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Jan 28 10:01:28 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:01:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
	<15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Gil Fuqua wrote:
> Take a look at T-8 fluorescent fixtures.

    Seconded.  I have a much smaller garage, but since I switched to T8s 
lighting is never an issue.  The old T12 units would not work much below 
freezing, and I had to replace them often, even with just 5 fixtures/10 
bulbs.  I've never, to my recollection, replaced a T8 bulb.  They just 
work great.

--
  David Hillman

From mikey at b2systems.com  Thu Jan 28 10:12:10 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:12:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
	<15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <1264698730.28659.24.camel@WebBrowser>

 I replaced a 8ft. T12 with a 4ft. T8 and I swear I am getting more
light out of it, I know it can't be but it looks like it. 

  I like the T8's a lot, they light instantly and don't flicker.  I was
wiring my new garage a few weeks ago and brought over my Metal Halide's
from the old shop.  My electrician thought it was silly and said just
put 1 extra T8 light which I did.  I only used the MH light when I doing
final body work for different lighting, I hope I don't miss it.  I
decided to buy all new T8 fixtures for my new garage and left all the
T12's at the old shop, going to need sunglasses when I walk in :)

	mike

On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 12:01 -0500, David Hillman wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Gil Fuqua wrote:
> > Take a look at T-8 fluorescent fixtures.
> 
>     Seconded.  I have a much smaller garage, but since I switched to T8s 
> lighting is never an issue.  The old T12 units would not work much below 
> freezing, and I had to replace them often, even with just 5 fixtures/10 
> bulbs.  I've never, to my recollection, replaced a T8 bulb.  They just 
> work great.

From darrellw at ipns.com  Thu Jan 28 10:22:47 2010
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:22:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
	<15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <9637C01B-1B2B-46F7-91C4-5F8835477CEE@ipns.com>

A couple of years ago I put in a bunch of T8 fixtures (I think they can
actually take either T8 or T12 bulbs), supposedly electronic ballast.  After
about a year, some of the bulbs started to not come on.  I replaced a few, but
in the process of that I found that just removing and reinstalling the bulb
would "fix" the problem for a while.  Any ideas what the problem might be?  Is
it bad connections in the end caps, a problem in the ballast, or something
else?  The temperature in my garage never gets below 45 or 50, and rarely
above 80, so I don't think it is a temperature problem.

-Darrell


On Jan 28, 2010, at 9:01 AM, David Hillman wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Gil Fuqua wrote:
>> Take a look at T-8 fluorescent fixtures.
>
>   Seconded.  I have a much smaller garage, but since I switched to T8s
lighting is never an issue.  The old T12 units would not work much below
freezing, and I had to replace them often, even with just 5 fixtures/10 bulbs.
I've never, to my recollection, replaced a T8 bulb.  They just work great.
>
> --
> David Hillman



--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS CTC67956L
Vancouver, WA, USA

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 28 11:05:50 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:05:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <9637C01B-1B2B-46F7-91C4-5F8835477CEE@ipns.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com><15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com><alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
	<9637C01B-1B2B-46F7-91C4-5F8835477CEE@ipns.com>
Message-ID: <FF5CD18569124C23A66E93541E4C38A3@jdnet.deere.com>

> A couple of years ago I put in a bunch of T8 fixtures (I 
> think they can actually take either T8 or T12 bulbs), 
> supposedly electronic ballast. 

Sockets are the same, but the ballasts are not.  I learned this the hard way
with a kitchen fixture that I mistakenly installed T12 bulbs in.  The
ballast died within about 3 years (didn't realize it was a T8 ballast until
after I removed it and read the label).  You might double-check that you are
using the lamps that match your ballasts.  This is my first experience with
T8 bulbs, but I've also found that some T12 ballasts don't like "energy
saver" T12 bulbs.

> I found that just removing and 
> reinstalling the bulb would "fix" the problem for a while. 

Are the fixtures properly grounded?

-- Randall  

From nases at verizon.net  Thu Jan 28 11:36:48 2010
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:36:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <80D10A70-BDE0-4BC6-957A-6414E3819CB7@verizon.net>

I have the 8 foot fluorescents also and have not had an issue with tube life
or garage temps.

I have a friend who mounted his fixtures on diagonals to the workspace and has
fewer shadows also.  Just a
thought for those who haven't yet wired for their lights.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Jan 28, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Galt, Stuart A wrote:

> Sorry for asking a shop related question...
>
> I have a garage with 13.5' ceilings and am currently lighting it with cheapo
4
> ft fluorescent lights.  Would better
> fluorescent fixtures solve my problem?
>
> Stuart.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan 28 11:56:57 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:56:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What is special about these?  Do they use electronic ballasts?

doug

--- On
Thu, 1/28/10, David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com> wrote:

> From: David
Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Lighting
> To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 12:01 PM
> On
Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Gil Fuqua
> wrote:
> > Take a look at T-8 fluorescent
fixtures.
> 
>    Seconded.  I have a much smaller
> garage, but since I
switched to T8s lighting is never an
> issue.  The old T12 units would not
work much below
> freezing, and I had to replace them often, even with just 5
> fixtures/10 bulbs.  I've never, to my recollection,
> replaced a T8 bulb. 
They just work great.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Jan 28 12:21:24 2010
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:21:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281419570.45801@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Doug Braun wrote:
> What is special about these?  Do they use electronic ballasts?

    Rather than pretending to be an expert...

http://lightingsolutions.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25&Itemid=26
http://www.mge.com/business/saving/detail/t8.htm

    They have more gooder.

--
  David Hillman

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 28 12:43:24 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:43:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281419570.45801@itonami.pair.com>
References: <995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281419570.45801@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <CF7D78910A704500B9B8612ACF9326C4@jdnet.deere.com>

>     Rather than pretending to be an expert...
> 
> http://lightingsolutions.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=
article&id=25&Itemid=26
> http://www.mge.com/business/saving/detail/t8.htm

Of course, as always, be careful about what you read on the internet.  A
little quick searching seems to contradict some of the claims made, at least
in some cases.

For example, here is a F40T12 that produces 3600 lumens with a CRI of 85:
http://www.1000bulbs.com/F40T12-Triten50-Full-Spectrum-Fluorescent/32385/

While here is a T8 that only produces 2850 lumens & a CRI of only 75
http://www.1000bulbs.com/F32T8-4100-Kelvin/40640/

With equivalent ballasts (high efficiency electronic ballasts are also
available for T12), these two bulbs are effectively the same efficiency
(lumens per watt), but you get less light per bulb with the T8.

Note that I am not claiming this is true of all T8/T12 bulbs, only that
generalizations like those referenced above don't necessarily apply to all
cases.  You have to be careful not to compare apples to road apples.

-- Randall  

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 15:21:06 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:21:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
	<995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001281421q3445cdf9t4a7233ac02ba281f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> What is special about these?  Do they use electronic ballasts?
>
> Nearly all t8 fixtures have high efficiency electronic ballasts  (Though
I've seen crappy magnetic ones, within the last year or so, at one of the
big box'o'crap stores.  So pay attention...) which solve most of the
complaints people have about fluorescent tubes.  They're high frequency, so
they don't flicker (the flicker period is less than the persistence of the
phosphor so there isn't any flickering), they start quickly, and they'll
start when it's cold.  (The ones in our garage are claimed for 0F; I don't
know that it's ever been that cold in there, but they come on well below
freezing.)  Bulb life is also improved, and there are other benefits as well
(most t8 tubes are higher efficiency)

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jan 28 15:26:31 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:56:31 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001281421q3445cdf9t4a7233ac02ba281f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFF7FB89FE.3E94C3A3-ON642576B9.007B8042-642576B9.007BC267@mail.megageek.com>

When I built the new "cold storage" building this past summer, I got a few 
of the T8 lights and I was amazed at home great they performed.

Instant on, no flicker, not to expensive (I think it was $40 per 8' dual 
bulb fixture.) And they come on in the middle of the bitter Jersey cold 
winter (or so I'm told by people that use my garage while I'm away.)  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From lee at automate-it.com  Thu Jan 28 20:31:05 2010
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:31:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.c
	om>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <4917.98.200.63.37.1264735865.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

Ditto to pretty much what others have said for T8 lighting. Last year I put in
two rows of 6 fixtures (two bulbs each); building is just a deep 3-car garage
with another half-car width of work space. Wow, this is a lot of light. I got
the 12 fixtures and 24 bulbs plus a few supplies for about $250. Nothing
fancy.

It doesn't often get below freezing here just north of Houston, but we had a
few evenings into the 20's a couple of weeks ago. I could notice a very slight
decrease in output at those temps, but after a few minutes I think they came
up to full output (or else my old eyes adjusted).

The other option, if you're in much colder temps, is to go with the "HO" (high
output) bulbs and fixtures. The bulbs and fixtures are a lot more expensive,
though. But they're made for use in walk-in freezers, etc., and the light
output is pretty impressive.

 - Lee

From al at bighealey.org  Fri Jan 29 07:19:33 2010
From: al at bighealey.org (Al Fuller)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:19:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <CF7D78910A704500B9B8612ACF9326C4@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281419570.45801@itonami.pair.com>
	<CF7D78910A704500B9B8612ACF9326C4@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <000c01caa0ee$14eedee0$3ecc9ca0$@org>

Guys:  do I need to buy new fixtures to use the new lighting?  I have some
older fixtures I will install 'when I have time'.  I'm sure they have older
bulbs in them...

So - would I be able to install new bulbs (and ballasts, if necessary) and
save the expense of the new fixtures?  OR, is it just not worth the effort?

Al Fuller
al at bighealey.org
'62 BT-7
'65 BJ-8
'85 Rx-7

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:43 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Lighting

>     Rather than pretending to be an expert...
> 
> http://lightingsolutions.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=
article&id=25&Itemid=26
> http://www.mge.com/business/saving/detail/t8.htm

Of course, as always, be careful about what you read on the internet.  A
little quick searching seems to contradict some of the claims made, at least
in some cases.

For example, here is a F40T12 that produces 3600 lumens with a CRI of 85:
http://www.1000bulbs.com/F40T12-Triten50-Full-Spectrum-Fluorescent/32385/

While here is a T8 that only produces 2850 lumens & a CRI of only 75
http://www.1000bulbs.com/F32T8-4100-Kelvin/40640/

With equivalent ballasts (high efficiency electronic ballasts are also
available for T12), these two bulbs are effectively the same efficiency
(lumens per watt), but you get less light per bulb with the T8.

Note that I am not claiming this is true of all T8/T12 bulbs, only that
generalizations like those referenced above don't necessarily apply to all
cases.  You have to be careful not to compare apples to road apples.

-- Randall  
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as al at bighealey.org

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan 29 07:30:51 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 06:30:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <000c01caa0ee$14eedee0$3ecc9ca0$@org>
Message-ID: <181096.21219.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It's probably hard to find new electronic ballasts for less than the price of new fixtures.

A while back I was wondering if I could upgrade my 96" T12 HO fixtures to use electronic ballasts, because the stock ones get awfully warm. But electronic ballasts of the required size were more expensive than the original fixtures.

I have a 48" 2-bulb T8 fixture in my basement, and it works great.  I never realized why until I read all these posts in the last couple of days.  If I were installing new lighting in my garage today, I would have bought several of those.

BTW, the original garage lighting was two 100-watt bare incandescent bulbs.  I was amazed that the previous owners put up with that for 30+ years...

Doug

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jan 29 07:54:58 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:54:58 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <181096.21219.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <181096.21219.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B62F6C2.1090204@hornesystemstx.com>

Check on ebay for electronic ballasts. I've bought some there for T8 
3-48" fixtures for less than half the price ($10)  I pay for ballasts at 
Home Depot ($26).

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Doug Braun, On 1/29/2010 8:30 AM:
> It's probably hard to find new electronic ballasts for less than the price of new fixtures.
>
> A while back I was wondering if I could upgrade my 96" T12 HO fixtures to use electronic ballasts, because the stock ones get awfully warm. But electronic ballasts of the required size were more expensive than the original fixtures.
>
> I have a 48" 2-bulb T8 fixture in my basement, and it works great.  I never realized why until I read all these posts in the last couple of days.  If I were installing new lighting in my garage today, I would have bought several of those.
>
> BTW, the original garage lighting was two 100-watt bare incandescent bulbs.  I was amazed that the previous owners put up with that for 30+ years...
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jan 29 08:19:50 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:49:50 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Weights
Message-ID: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>

I'm trying to buy an assortment of wheel weights and I didn't realize how 
difficult it is becoming.

What I want is a nice assortment of wheel weights size and weight varying. 


What I'm finding is either "per weight" or speciality weights.  Is there a 
good source for just an assortment of weights?

TIA

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From bspidell at comcast.net  Fri Jan 29 08:40:50 2010
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 07:40:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Weights
In-Reply-To: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B630182.3090902@comcast.net>

Try the old standby:

http://tinyurl.com/yhrrrew

-or-

http://www.jcwhitney.com/WHEEL_BALANCE_WEIGHTS?ID=12;0;0;0;100001;ProductName;0;0;0;0;2003849;0;0


bs

http://tinyurl.com/yhrrrew

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I'm trying to buy an assortment of wheel weights and I didn't realize how 
> difficult it is becoming.
> 
> What I want is a nice assortment of wheel weights size and weight varying. 
> 
> 
> What I'm finding is either "per weight" or speciality weights.  Is there a 
> good source for just an assortment of weights?
> 
> TIA
> 
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
> Waldo Emerson
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> 
> You are subscribed as bspidell at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 08:43:37 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:43:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Weights
In-Reply-To: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001290743p5432e7f9hb56dd1d93c173241@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 10:19 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> I'm trying to buy an assortment of wheel weights and I didn't realize how
> difficult it is becoming.
>
> What I want is a nice assortment of wheel weights size and weight varying.
>
>
> What I'm finding is either "per weight" or speciality weights.  Is there a
> good source for just an assortment of weights?
>
>
The only way I've ever seen wheel weights sold is either in boxes of (25 to
100) of one size, or in bulk, mulit-pound bags, again all one size and
style.  I don't know what your intended application is, but the easiest way
to get large coverage is small stick-on weights.
(There are a  bewildering array of wheel lip profiles these days, and an
assortment to cover them all would require 10 or 12 types per size.)

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From darrellw at ipns.com  Fri Jan 29 08:45:05 2010
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 07:45:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <FF5CD18569124C23A66E93541E4C38A3@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com><15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com><alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
	<9637C01B-1B2B-46F7-91C4-5F8835477CEE@ipns.com>
	<FF5CD18569124C23A66E93541E4C38A3@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <9600AB0C-9F51-477F-8C7D-9CC7A1C6BD8B@ipns.com>

Prompted by Randall's questions, I looked more closely.  The labels on the
fixtures do indeed say T12 (40 or 32W) and T8 (32 or 25W).  Opening it up, the
label on the ballast agrees (and they are electronic).

The ballast ground wire is connected the fixture.  The cord does have a ground
prong, but as far as I can tell, it isn't connected to the fixture in any way.
So I'll make that connection and see if it helps.

-Darrell


On Jan 28, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Randall wrote:

>> A couple of years ago I put in a bunch of T8 fixtures (I
>> think they can actually take either T8 or T12 bulbs),
>> supposedly electronic ballast.
>
> Sockets are the same, but the ballasts are not.  I learned this the hard
way
> with a kitchen fixture that I mistakenly installed T12 bulbs in.  The
> ballast died within about 3 years (didn't realize it was a T8 ballast until
> after I removed it and read the label).  You might double-check that you
are
> using the lamps that match your ballasts.  This is my first experience with
> T8 bulbs, but I've also found that some T12 ballasts don't like "energy
> saver" T12 bulbs.
>
>> I found that just removing and
>> reinstalling the bulb would "fix" the problem for a while.
>
> Are the fixtures properly grounded?
>
> -- Randall
>



--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS CTC67956L
Vancouver, WA, USA

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 11:20:54 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:20:54 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
Message-ID: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>

*I have a little IR temperature meter which I use around the shop checking
AC in and out temps, motor temps, etc . . one day I was outside checking the
wall temp to see how my insulation was working, it was about 50 degrees
ambient and . . . I aimed the meter at the clear blue sky:  It read minus 15
degrees!!!!!!       Is it really measuring something?  Is that a default?
HELP!!!!!*

*Tony*

From t.w.jones1 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 11:24:36 2010
From: t.w.jones1 at gmail.com (Tom Jones)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:24:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Weights
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001290743p5432e7f9hb56dd1d93c173241@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>
	<2400a5d41001290743p5432e7f9hb56dd1d93c173241@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f99a069c1001291024s7391a709h509414980ad6140d@mail.gmail.com>

Myers Tire Supply
http://www.myerstiresupply.com/shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?search=yes&bc=no

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 10:19 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to buy an assortment of wheel weights and I didn't realize how
> > difficult it is becoming.
> >
> > What I want is a nice assortment of wheel weights size and weight
> varying.
> >
> >
> > What I'm finding is either "per weight" or speciality weights.  Is there
> a
> > good source for just an assortment of weights?
> >
> >
> The only way I've ever seen wheel weights sold is either in boxes of (25 to
> 100) of one size, or in bulk, mulit-pound bags, again all one size and
> style.  I don't know what your intended application is, but the easiest way
> to get large coverage is small stick-on weights.
> (There are a  bewildering array of wheel lip profiles these days, and an
> assortment to cover them all would require 10 or 12 types per size.)
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>  _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as t.w.jones1 at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Jan 29 11:36:09 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:36:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <854974364.621451264790156634.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> *I have a little IR temperature meter which I use around the shop
> checking
> AC in and out temps, motor temps, etc . . one day I was outside
> checking the
> wall temp to see how my insulation was working, it was about 50
> degrees
> ambient and . . . I aimed the meter at the clear blue sky:  It read
> minus 15
> degrees!!!!!!       Is it really measuring something?  Is that a
> default?
> HELP!!!!!*
> 
> *Tony*

What temperature do you think it is way up there?



Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 11:46:32 2010
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:46:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53221001291046p7d2205d5jde92bebfee622240@mail.gmail.com>

The IR thermometer works by looking at the spectrum of infrared light
being emitted by an object (blackbody radiation).  When you aim it
into the sky, it's just going to collect all of the infrared light it
sees and interpret it the best that it can.

I can see two reasons for getting -15.

One option:  It's a weighted average of reflected IR from everything
terrestrial around you and then the IR making it through the
atmosphere.  The IR from all the stuff around you looks like about 50
degrees, and the stuff from the upper atmosphere and the rest of the
universe looks like less the farther out you go (Eventually becoming
very, very cold).  It's going to see more of the closer stuff, with
some of the really cold stuff in the upper atmosphere (and beyond)
averaged in.  Either that works out to be -15, or the thermometer has
a low temp. limit of -15 and it just reads that for temperatures less
than or equal to -15.

2nd option:  It's not getting enough IR to its sensor to determine a
temperature and -15 is the default reading in that situation.

-Paul

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark
<eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> *I have a little IR temperature meter which I use around the shop checking
> AC in and out temps, motor temps, etc . . one day I was outside checking
the
> wall temp to see how my insulation was working, it was about 50 degrees
> ambient and . . . I aimed the meter at the clear blue sky:  It read minus
15
> degrees!!!!!!       Is it really measuring something?  Is that a default?
> HELP!!!!!*
>
> *Tony*

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Jan 29 11:45:46 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:45:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100129132947.01c6bf60@cox.net>

Gang,

I thought I'd report back about my kitchen faucet.  As you may remember I said
I had used the faucet in the moring and the water flow was normal.  Then in
the afternoon, I went to use the faucet, and there was barely any water flow
from the faucet.  This faucet is one of the single levers with the detachable
heads with the sprayer button on the head.

I checked the bathroom faucets, and they had good pressure.

I went back to the kitchen and removed the head to examine it.  All I could do
was to remove the aerator and noticed some small white particles in 
it.  I cleaned
them out and cleaned the screens, reassembled and tried again.  Still 
very little
flow.

I removed the head again, and tried to run the water just out of the 
hose.  Again,
the flow seemed pretty low.

So at the advice of some on the list, I went out to get a new 
cylinder yesterday
so I had it on hand.

This moring I decided to tackle tearing the faucet apart.  That 
proved to be pretty
easy.  I removed the cylinder and went to install the new one I 
purchased at a big
box store and it was the wrong one. :(

So off I go to another hardware store.  They didn't have any of the 
cylinders for
my faucet, but suggested that I go to a big plumbing only store down 
the street.

These people were fantastic.  I told the fellow what I needed, and he 
reached up
on the shelf and pulled it down.  I then asked how hard it was to 
replace the dip
tube, and told him I'd found some white stuff in the head of the faucet.

He asked, "how old is the heater".  I told him it was probably about 
10 yrs old.
He said, "don't even try.  You really need a new hot water heater."

With that he picked up the cylinder he'd just put on the counter and 
restocked it.
He said, "you probably don't need this - especially if the faucet 
isn't leaking".
So I told him about the low flow.  He said, "there a blockage in the 
flex line.
Remove the head and blow backwards through it to clear the clog."

So I went and returned the wrong cylinder, and returned home.  I disconnected
the flex hose from the faucet, and tried to blow backwards through 
it.  I could
hardly get any air through it.  So I sat down with a light and looked 
in the bottom
end of the flex hose.  Sure enough some white crud.  So I picked it out, and
reassembled the hoses and the faucet.

Got good flow now!!!!

So it looks like my dip tube is crumbling apart.  Which also makes sense as to
why we ran out of hot water taking 2 showers the other day.  Usually we don't
have any problem with 4 people in the house taking shower, one in each
bathroom at the same time.

So I guess one of my next projects will be replacing the hot water heater. :(

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Fri Jan 29 12:08:09 2010
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:08:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D3591157C1474A14B3EC4875633D4E0E@Digilink1>

Somewhere up there it is -15.....maybe that is the spot it focused on....;-)
http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 29 12:08:06 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:08:06 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A3A00421FB434DF68F3357EA26DA6444@jdnet.deere.com>

To put it another way, the accuracy of your meter depends greatly on the
emissivity of the object it's pointed at.  In theory, to get an accurate
non-contact measurement, you must know and correct for the emissivity of the
object of interest.  Some thermometers have an adjustment for this, but most
inexpensive ones just assume it's around .95 (which is reasonably close for
most materials).

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html

But air has a really lousy emissivity and you aren't correcting for it.

-- Randall  

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 29 12:14:58 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:14:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <181096.21219.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <000c01caa0ee$14eedee0$3ecc9ca0$@org>
	<181096.21219.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <319164F5A5894EB0A5279CD32068E449@jdnet.deere.com>

> BTW, the original garage lighting was two 100-watt bare 
> incandescent bulbs.  I was amazed that the previous owners 
> put up with that for 30+ years...

Oddly enough, some people only use their garages to park cars !
<G>

-- Randall  

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Jan 29 12:18:33 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:18:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B633489.1070305@xxiii.com>

On 1/29/2010 1:20 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> I have a little IR temperature meter ....
> .... . I aimed the meter at the clear blue sky:  It read minus 15
> degrees!!!!!!       Is it really measuring something?  Is that a default?

I had a Harbor Freight one that did the same thing.  Apparently there is little to no infrared (or whatever radiation it's looking for) from space.

-Wayne

From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Jan 29 12:19:24 2010
From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:19:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <319164F5A5894EB0A5279CD32068E449@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <000c01caa0ee$14eedee0$3ecc9ca0$@org>
	<181096.21219.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<319164F5A5894EB0A5279CD32068E449@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <1264792764.28659.97.camel@WebBrowser>

 I thought it was only to park junk while the cars stayed in the
driveway !

 My father-in-law would not recognize his garage now, he put up with
single bulb for near 60 years in that garage, I have so many lights he
would need sunglasses.  Of course the garage also more than doubled in
size which also make it harder for him to recognize.

	mike

On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 11:14 -0800, Randall wrote:
> > BTW, the original garage lighting was two 100-watt bare 
> > incandescent bulbs.  I was amazed that the previous owners 
> > put up with that for 30+ years...
> 
> Oddly enough, some people only use their garages to park cars !
> <G>
> 
> -- Randall  

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Jan 29 12:31:11 2010
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:31:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <319164F5A5894EB0A5279CD32068E449@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <000c01caa0ee$14eedee0$3ecc9ca0$@org><181096.21219.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<319164F5A5894EB0A5279CD32068E449@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBBD96@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

> Oddly enough, some people only use their garages to park cars !
> <G>

Years ago (when in college) a good friend of mine (also a car nut) got
in a bit of an argument with his architect professor.  My friend was
designing a house and specified a lot of outlets and plenty of room in
the garage.  The professor argued that anything more than a single
overhead light was a waste of time/money, and even argued with him about
the necessity of including a garage in a house design.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From chad at linuxeg.com  Fri Jan 29 12:32:43 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:32:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com>

2.725 Degrees Kelvin.


>
>
> What temperature do you think it is way up there?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 29 12:44:09 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:44:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <000c01caa0ee$14eedee0$3ecc9ca0$@org>
References: <995933.68368.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281419570.45801@itonami.pair.com>
	<CF7D78910A704500B9B8612ACF9326C4@jdnet.deere.com>
	<000c01caa0ee$14eedee0$3ecc9ca0$@org>
Message-ID: <121A30DBD61C4D6CABF7E1D6FC32243C@jdnet.deere.com>

> So - would I be able to install new bulbs (and ballasts, if 
> necessary) and save the expense of the new fixtures?  OR, is 
> it just not worth the effort?

Can be done, although generally you will need to change the ballast.  But
changing the ballast without taking the fixture down is a gigantic pain in
the neck (literally!) and by the time you've removed the fixture for easy
access, it might make more sense to update it anyway.

-- Randall  

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan 29 14:37:32 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:37:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <4B62F6C2.1090204@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <580626.48910.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ebay has zillions of the T8 electronic ballasts in the $10 range, but
virtually no T12HO ballasts, and they are about $50.  :-(

I guess if and when
any of my T12HO lights die, I replace them with T8...

Doug

--- On Fri,
1/29/10, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:

> From: Pat Horne
<pat at hornesystemstx.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Lighting
> To: "Doug
Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
> Cc: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Friday, January 29, 2010, 9:54 AM
> Check on ebay for electronic
>
ballasts. I've bought some there for T8 
> 3-48" fixtures for less than half
the price ($10)  I
> pay for ballasts at 
> Home Depot ($26).
> 
> Peace,
>
Pat
> 
> Thusly spake Doug Braun, On 1/29/2010 8:30 AM:
> > It's probably hard
to find new electronic ballasts for
> less than the price of new fixtures.
> >
> > A while back I was wondering if I could upgrade my 96"
> T12 HO fixtures
to use electronic ballasts, because the
> stock ones get awfully warm. But
electronic ballasts of the
> required size were more expensive than the
original
> fixtures.
> >
> > I have a 48" 2-bulb T8 fixture in my basement,
and it
> works great.  I never realized why until I read all
> these posts in
the last couple of days.  If I were
> installing new lighting in my garage
today, I would have
> bought several of those.
> >
> > BTW, the original
garage lighting was two 100-watt
> bare incandescent bulbs.  I was amazed that
the
> previous owners put up with that for 30+ years...
> >
> > Doug
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > Suggested annual donation $12.96
> >
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
> >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> >
http://www.team.net/archive
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> -- 
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne
Systems 
> (512) 797-7501 Voice       
> 5026 FM 2001
>
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com   
> Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
>
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand
> OUT --

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan 29 14:43:47 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:43:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <319164F5A5894EB0A5279CD32068E449@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <50278.74022.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That would be a tragic waste: it is 24x24, with a 12-foot ceiling and no columns...

Doug

--- On Fri, 1/29/10, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> Oddly enough, some people only use their garages to park
> cars !
> <G>

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 15:05:17 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:05:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <854974364.621451264790156634.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001291405j792a38a6kffac4e82cca10986@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:36 PM, <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:

> ----- "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > *I have a little IR temperature meter which I use around the shop
> > checking
> > AC in and out temps, motor temps, etc . . one day I was outside
> > checking the
> > wall temp to see how my insulation was working, it was about 50
> > degrees
> > ambient and . . . I aimed the meter at the clear blue sky:  It read
> > minus 15
> > degrees!!!!!!       Is it really measuring something?  Is that a
> > default?
> > HELP!!!!!*
> >
> > *Tony*
>
> What temperature do you think it is way up there?
>
>
Clear sky is cold!  People have died of exposure from radiative cooling when
the air temperature is in the 60s.  (Stupid people who think sleeping on a
hilltop would be a good idea, but still.)

that's why it gets *cold* in the winter when the night is clear.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From darrellw at ipns.com  Fri Jan 29 15:26:38 2010
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:26:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lighting
In-Reply-To: <9600AB0C-9F51-477F-8C7D-9CC7A1C6BD8B@ipns.com>
References: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9990B57@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com><15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201EABB33@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com><alpine.BSF.2.00.1001281156210.45801@itonami.pair.com>
	<9637C01B-1B2B-46F7-91C4-5F8835477CEE@ipns.com>
	<FF5CD18569124C23A66E93541E4C38A3@jdnet.deere.com>
	<9600AB0C-9F51-477F-8C7D-9CC7A1C6BD8B@ipns.com>
Message-ID: <DAB021BD-64F9-4A9F-BCC0-3704444AB60E@ipns.com>

Well, upon closer inspection the ground wire is connected.

At this point I'm down to only 3 fixtures out of 12 that work reliably.
Perhaps it is time to really tear one apart and check all of the connections,
etc.   Are there any tests I can do on the ballast?

-Darrell

On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Darrell Walker wrote:

> Prompted by Randall's questions, I looked more closely.  The labels on the
> fixtures do indeed say T12 (40 or 32W) and T8 (32 or 25W).  Opening it up,
the
> label on the ballast agrees (and they are electronic).
>
> The ballast ground wire is connected the fixture.  The cord does have a
ground
> prong, but as far as I can tell, it isn't connected to the fixture in any
way.
> So I'll make that connection and see if it helps.
>
> -Darrell
>
>
> On Jan 28, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Randall wrote:
>
>>> A couple of years ago I put in a bunch of T8 fixtures (I
>>> think they can actually take either T8 or T12 bulbs),
>>> supposedly electronic ballast.
>>
>> Sockets are the same, but the ballasts are not.  I learned this the hard
> way
>> with a kitchen fixture that I mistakenly installed T12 bulbs in.  The
>> ballast died within about 3 years (didn't realize it was a T8 ballast
until
>> after I removed it and read the label).  You might double-check that you
> are
>> using the lamps that match your ballasts.  This is my first experience
with
>> T8 bulbs, but I've also found that some T12 ballasts don't like "energy
>> saver" T12 bulbs.
>>
>>> I found that just removing and
>>> reinstalling the bulb would "fix" the problem for a while.
>>
>> Are the fixtures properly grounded?
>>
>> -- Randall
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Darrell Walker
> 66 TR4A IRS CTC67956L
> Vancouver, WA, USA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as darrellw at ipns.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 16:47:32 2010
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:47:32 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <854974364.621451264790156634.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385361001291547n681f7c1x2ab9156833a14c08@mail.gmail.com>

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
wrote:


What temperature do you think it is way up there?

*Wull, Phil, "way up there" I remember, it's minus 455 degrees fahrenheit so
why don't you 'splain for us why I measure minus 15?*
**
*Meanwhile, I really like Paul Parkanzky's answer.  Thanks Paul.*
**
*Tony*
**

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Jan 29 16:56:22 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:56:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <ea2385361001291547n681f7c1x2ab9156833a14c08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2043686632.768601264809382531.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I like Paul's answer, too.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
> To: pethier at comcast.net
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 5:47:32 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
>
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 2004 Suburban 8.1
> 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> What temperature do you think it is way up there?
> 
> Wull, Phil, "way up there" I remember, it's minus 455 degrees
> fahrenheit so why don't you 'splain for us why I measure minus 15?
> 
> Meanwhile, I really like Paul Parkanzky's answer. Thanks Paul.
> 
> Tony

From marka at maracing.com  Fri Jan 29 17:41:21 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:41:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] more water heater
In-Reply-To: <05EFB23F58EA44F1A3D5EC1C9B8F02F0@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261031200.3517@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<547600.51179.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<05EFB23F58EA44F1A3D5EC1C9B8F02F0@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1001291934160.6385@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

So, put in the water heater, and switched everything over to flexible 
connections.

I'm not sorry to have done that, but I'd also do things a little 
differently next time...

First, if your fixed connections are like mine, when you take away the 
fixed connection at the water heater, they're pretty floppy.  So plan on 
needing to add some hangers to locate the hot/cold/gas pipes a little 
better.

Also, the flexible water connections (stainless braided ones, at least) 
aren't going to flex a lot without crimping.  I didn't cut off enough pipe 
for fear of having the connections end up too short and in the end they 
were a couple inches too long.  Its in there now, but it'd sure look a lot 
better if the pipes were a couple inches shorter (the hard lines are 
shoved up pretty good to make room).  I suppose I could get some 12" flex 
connections instead of these 18" ones that came in a water heater 
connection kit, then make up a 3" or so threaded riser/adapter, but I 
think what I'll really do is concentrate on not looking at it for a while, 
and see if it still bothers me in a couple weeks.

Anyway, figured I'd post my results, particularly the bit about needing to 
brace the no longer fixed end connections a litlle more if you're moving 
to flex connections.

Mark

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Jan 29 18:06:25 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:06:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com>
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c>

Damn, and I thought it was around 50 Rankine.  <snicker>

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Chad on LEG
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 11:33 AM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter

2.725 Degrees Kelvin.


>
>
> What temperature do you think it is way up there?
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From chad at linuxeg.com  Fri Jan 29 18:22:10 2010
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:22:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c>
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com>
	<D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c>
Message-ID: <4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com>

closer to 4.905 degrees Rankine
chad
(Bet "The List" is sorry you helped me with my replies)

Jack Brooks wrote:
> Damn, and I thought it was around 50 Rankine.  <snicker>

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sat Jan 30 07:52:01 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 09:52:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
References: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3A00421FB434DF68F3357EA26DA6444@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <AC39BADB17B748C1A2443B2F7D112F6E@watsongxpejt9r>

Dear All,

    Wow.  Think about  Tony's original statement "which I use around the 
shop checking AC in and out temps, motor temps, etc . ." and look at the 
chart Randall pointed to.

    So when a hot rodder (not me) points his IR thermometer at his polished 
aluminum radiator or polished aluminum thermostat housing he's certainly not 
getting anything like a meaningful measurement is he?  "Aluminum Highly 
Polished" has an emissivity of about .05 versus what Randall claims of 
around .95!

    NOTE: Randall, I'm not doubting on your statement - I have no basis to 
know either way!

    The other thing about IR thermometers is to remember that they don't 
really measure at a fixed size point but see a cone that increases in size 
with distance.  Is there some optimal distance at which to use them?

    And yet another interesting and educational discussion!

Mark Watson
1965 Ford Falcon hopefully short term repair project
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' - in the middle of a slow restoration
plus various other transportation pods

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: "'Shop Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter


> To put it another way, the accuracy of your meter depends greatly on the
> emissivity of the object it's pointed at.  In theory, to get an accurate
> non-contact measurement, you must know and correct for the emissivity of 
> the
> object of interest.  Some thermometers have an adjustment for this, but 
> most
> inexpensive ones just assume it's around .95 (which is reasonably close 
> for
> most materials).
>
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html
>
> But air has a really lousy emissivity and you aren't correcting for it.
>
> -- Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 08:19:05 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:19:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <AC39BADB17B748C1A2443B2F7D112F6E@watsongxpejt9r>
References: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3A00421FB434DF68F3357EA26DA6444@jdnet.deere.com>
	<AC39BADB17B748C1A2443B2F7D112F6E@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001300719t1c2e7f7dw16f3f4e6457b4db2@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
>   Wow.  Think about  Tony's original statement "which I use around the shop
> checking AC in and out temps, motor temps, etc . ." and look at the chart
> Randall pointed to.
>
>   So when a hot rodder (not me) points his IR thermometer at his polished
> aluminum radiator or polished aluminum thermostat housing he's certainly not
> getting anything like a meaningful measurement is he?  "Aluminum Highly
> Polished" has an emissivity of about .05 versus what Randall claims of
> around .95!
>
> No.  When I'm worried about that sort of thing, I stick a piece of
electrical tape on the target, and measure that.

>
>   The other thing about IR thermometers is to remember that they don't
> really measure at a fixed size point but see a cone that increases in size
> with distance.  Is there some optimal distance at which to use them?
>
> Depends on what you're measuring, and how big the hot spots are.  Raytek
make a couple for automotive use that have two laser pointers, mounted with
a set amount of parallax.  When they're focused on the same point, the
measured area is an inch in diamter.  That's hand for measuring in a car.



>   And yet another interesting and educational discussion!
>
> Mark Watson
> 1965 Ford Falcon hopefully short term repair project
> 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' - in the middle of a slow restoration
> plus various other transportation pods
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> To: "'Shop Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 2:08 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
>
>
>  To put it another way, the accuracy of your meter depends greatly on the
>> emissivity of the object it's pointed at.  In theory, to get an accurate
>> non-contact measurement, you must know and correct for the emissivity of
>> the
>> object of interest.  Some thermometers have an adjustment for this, but
>> most
>> inexpensive ones just assume it's around .95 (which is reasonably close
>> for
>> most materials).
>>
>> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html
>>
>> But air has a really lousy emissivity and you aren't correcting for it.
>>
>> -- Randall
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From arvidj at visi.com  Sat Jan 30 08:26:28 2010
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 09:26:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
References: <ea2385361001291020m34ac6527k2c80240b65daed3@mail.gmail.com><A3A00421FB434DF68F3357EA26DA6444@jdnet.deere.com>
	<AC39BADB17B748C1A2443B2F7D112F6E@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <0A7FCB1EE6B441D593DDBFEFE26E878F@behavioral.com>

> "Aluminum Highly Polished" has an emissivity of about .05 versus what 
> Randall claims of around .95!
>
>    NOTE: Randall, I'm not doubting on your statement - I have no basis to 
> know either way!

I will put words in Randall's mouth.

He was saying that (a) things have different emissivity values and provided 
a chart, and (b) that some meters allow you to set the emissivity value to 
"tune" the meter to the material being measured and (c) the most of the 
inexpensive meters that do not allow the emissivity value to be tuned are 
permanently set to .95.

Therefore it would be reasonable to conclude that if you are using a 
non-tunable meter and are measuring items with emissivity values that 
deviate far from .95 then the reading that you get are suspect.

Arvid 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 30 09:35:24 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 08:35:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <AC39BADB17B748C1A2443B2F7D112F6E@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <AB.62.01403.BCF546B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

>     NOTE: Randall, I'm not doubting on your statement - I 
> have no basis to know either way!

No need to take my word for it, Mark.  For example, here is a white paper
from Omega Engineering (a well-known vendor of industrial process measuring
equipment) that talks about it:
http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/infraredthermometer.html
"Some polished, shiny metallic surfaces, such as aluminum, are so reflective
in the infrared that accurate temperature measurements are not always
possible."

Here's another:
http://tinyurl.com/yv9hsz
"Infrared thermometers will have difficulty taking accurate temperature
measurements of shiny metal surfaces unless they can adjust for emissivity.
"

Logically, it's like trying to determine the color of a mirror.

And while Tony apparently knows his IR thermometer "won't work" on shiny
metal, it's my belief that most casual users are unaware of the problem.

Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Jan 31 01:07:47 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:07:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com>
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com><D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c>
	<4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <02EDD8BB44B046CB8EEAEBC350A605D3@hpa1477c>

What I wrote was about 5 "degrees" Rankine, but it came out as 50.  

0 Rankine and 0 Kelvin are the same temp and as we know, there are 9
farenheit degrees for every Centigrade degree, so it was an easy conversion
to about 5 degrees Rankine.

Sorry for the confusion.  I didn't realize that the conversion to plain text
would eliminate the ASCII codes too.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Chad on LEG
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 5:22 PM
To: 'Shop Talk List'
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter

closer to 4.905 degrees Rankine
chad
(Bet "The List" is sorry you helped me with my replies)

Jack Brooks wrote:
> Damn, and I thought it was around 50 Rankine.  <snicker>
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Jan 31 01:11:00 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:11:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100129132947.01c6bf60@cox.net>
References: <OFDEE04F2C.274FBC19-ON642576BA.00547E61-642576BA.0054B1DB@mail.megageek.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100129132947.01c6bf60@cox.net>
Message-ID: <9E8D857C63A34F45A72684566B0ED4CC@hpa1477c>

John,

If your water heater is from the mid-late 90's, just replace the dip tube.
They changed dip tube materials during this time and have since corrected
the issue.  I had the same issue as you, but it was a few years ago.  The
water heater is likely ok.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John T. Blair
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:46 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] faucet water flow low

Gang,

I thought I'd report back about my kitchen faucet.  As you may remember I
said
I had used the faucet in the moring and the water flow was normal.  Then in
the afternoon, I went to use the faucet, and there was barely any water flow
from the faucet.  This faucet is one of the single levers with the
detachable
heads with the sprayer button on the head.

I checked the bathroom faucets, and they had good pressure.

I went back to the kitchen and removed the head to examine it.  All I could
do
was to remove the aerator and noticed some small white particles in 
it.  I cleaned
them out and cleaned the screens, reassembled and tried again.  Still 
very little
flow.

I removed the head again, and tried to run the water just out of the 
hose.  Again,
the flow seemed pretty low.

So at the advice of some on the list, I went out to get a new 
cylinder yesterday
so I had it on hand.

This moring I decided to tackle tearing the faucet apart.  That 
proved to be pretty
easy.  I removed the cylinder and went to install the new one I 
purchased at a big
box store and it was the wrong one. :(

So off I go to another hardware store.  They didn't have any of the 
cylinders for
my faucet, but suggested that I go to a big plumbing only store down 
the street.

These people were fantastic.  I told the fellow what I needed, and he 
reached up
on the shelf and pulled it down.  I then asked how hard it was to 
replace the dip
tube, and told him I'd found some white stuff in the head of the faucet.

He asked, "how old is the heater".  I told him it was probably about 
10 yrs old.
He said, "don't even try.  You really need a new hot water heater."

With that he picked up the cylinder he'd just put on the counter and 
restocked it.
He said, "you probably don't need this - especially if the faucet 
isn't leaking".
So I told him about the low flow.  He said, "there a blockage in the 
flex line.
Remove the head and blow backwards through it to clear the clog."

So I went and returned the wrong cylinder, and returned home.  I
disconnected
the flex hose from the faucet, and tried to blow backwards through 
it.  I could
hardly get any air through it.  So I sat down with a light and looked 
in the bottom
end of the flex hose.  Sure enough some white crud.  So I picked it out, and
reassembled the hoses and the faucet.

Got good flow now!!!!

So it looks like my dip tube is crumbling apart.  Which also makes sense as
to
why we ran out of hot water taking 2 showers the other day.  Usually we
don't
have any problem with 4 people in the house taking shower, one in each
bathroom at the same time.

So I guess one of my next projects will be replacing the hot water heater.
:(

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
Suggested annual donation $12.96

You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 31 06:45:10 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 08:45:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
References: <AB.62.01403.BCF546B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6417D239C74644E3A41E9BF0EB8C1800@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, Randall, Arvid & others,

    Thanks for the links.  I've seen & read Omega's ads (including their 
Dilbert comics) for years.  Just never looked at their detailed info on 
infrared thermometers.  In fact, their "low-cost" meter ($85) specifically 
lists the emissivity as 0.95.

    Your statement "it's my belief that most casual users are unaware of the 
problem" would have applied to me until this discussion.  So my thanks to 
you and everyone else who chipped into the discussion for the enlightenment.

    And Arvid - yes you hit it right on the head with "Therefore it would be 
reasonable to conclude that if you are using a
non-tunable meter and are measuring items with emissivity values that 
deviate far from .95 then the reading that you get are suspect."

    Now if I can ever stretch the tool budget to include one of these I 
should be able to use it correctly.

Mark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>


>>     NOTE: Randall, I'm not doubting on your statement - I
>> have no basis to know either way!
>
> No need to take my word for it, Mark.  For example, here is a white paper
> from Omega Engineering (a well-known vendor of industrial process 
> measuring
> equipment) that talks about it:
> http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/infraredthermometer.html
> "Some polished, shiny metallic surfaces, such as aluminum, are so 
> reflective
> in the infrared that accurate temperature measurements are not always
> possible."
>
> Here's another:
> http://tinyurl.com/yv9hsz
> "Infrared thermometers will have difficulty taking accurate temperature
> measurements of shiny metal surfaces unless they can adjust for 
> emissivity."
> Logically, it's like trying to determine the color of a mirror.
>
> And while Tony apparently knows his IR thermometer "won't work" on shiny
> metal, it's my belief that most casual users are unaware of the problem.
>
> Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 09:38:21 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:38:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <02EDD8BB44B046CB8EEAEBC350A605D3@hpa1477c>
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com>
	<D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c>
	<4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com>
	<02EDD8BB44B046CB8EEAEBC350A605D3@hpa1477c>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001310838h6c4ed267k67fd2f4043ef5507@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:

> What I wrote was about 5 "degrees" Rankine, but it came out as 50.
>
> 0 Rankine and 0 Kelvin are the same temp and as we know, there are 9
> farenheit degrees for every Centigrade degree, so it was an easy conversion
> to about 5 degrees Rankine.
>

9 Fahrenheit degrees for every 5 Celsius degrees.


>
> Sorry for the confusion.  I didn't realize that the conversion to plain
> text
> would eliminate the ASCII codes too.
>
>
The degree symbol isn't part of ASCII.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Sun Jan 31 11:35:39 2010
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:35:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com><D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c><4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com><02EDD8BB44B046CB8EEAEBC350A605D3@hpa1477c>
	<2400a5d41001310838h6c4ed267k67fd2f4043ef5507@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2CDA4BE5A4642FE8555DBE66E1D2974@stargate>

Actually, you can get the degree symbol by Alt 0176 and it comes out like 
this...0
Let's see if it shows up on the list, but I think it does.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: "Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>
Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter


> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
>
>> What I wrote was about 5 "degrees" Rankine, but it came out as 50.
>>
>> 0 Rankine and 0 Kelvin are the same temp and as we know, there are 9
>> farenheit degrees for every Centigrade degree, so it was an easy 
>> conversion
>> to about 5 degrees Rankine.
>>
>
> 9 Fahrenheit degrees for every 5 Celsius degrees.
>
>
>>
>> Sorry for the confusion.  I didn't realize that the conversion to plain
>> text
>> would eliminate the ASCII codes too.
>>
>>
> The degree symbol isn't part of ASCII.
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4822 (20100131) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Sun Jan 31 11:37:08 2010
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:37:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com><D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c><4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com><02EDD8BB44B046CB8EEAEBC350A605D3@hpa1477c><2400a5d41001310838h6c4ed267k67fd2f4043ef5507@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CDA4BE5A4642FE8555DBE66E1D2974@stargate>
Message-ID: <0157C57CBE474408B3C8732E556FEED1@stargate>

Ah, apparently not.




> Actually, you can get the degree symbol by Alt 0176 and it comes out like 
> this...0
> Let's see if it shows up on the list, but I think it does.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> To: "Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
>
>
>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What I wrote was about 5 "degrees" Rankine, but it came out as 50.
>>>
>>> 0 Rankine and 0 Kelvin are the same temp and as we know, there are 9
>>> farenheit degrees for every Centigrade degree, so it was an easy 
>>> conversion
>>> to about 5 degrees Rankine.
>>>
>>
>> 9 Fahrenheit degrees for every 5 Celsius degrees.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry for the confusion.  I didn't realize that the conversion to plain
>>> text
>>> would eliminate the ASCII codes too.
>>>
>>>
>> The degree symbol isn't part of ASCII.
>> -- 
>> David Scheidt
>> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>>
>> You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>> signature database 4822 (20100131) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4822 (20100131) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Sun Jan 31 11:37:57 2010
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:37:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <C2CDA4BE5A4642FE8555DBE66E1D2974@stargate>
References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com><D8C24F55CEF946C3B2489AD4862B1508@hpa1477c><4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com><02EDD8BB44B046CB8EEAEBC350A605D3@hpa1477c>
	<2400a5d41001310838h6c4ed267k67fd2f4043ef5507@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CDA4BE5A4642FE8555DBE66E1D2974@stargate>
Message-ID: <5BF523F3-1D37-4D97-8063-BBF6A4604445@te-motorworks.com>

Perhaps we can modify the list to allow us to start sending around LaTeX
attachments...

-vin

On Jan 31, 2010, at 1:35 PM, gordies garage wrote:

> Actually, you can get the degree symbol by Alt 0176 and it comes out like
this...0
> Let's see if it shows up on the list, but I think it does.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> To: "Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
>
>
>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What I wrote was about 5 "degrees" Rankine, but it came out as 50.
>>>
>>> 0 Rankine and 0 Kelvin are the same temp and as we know, there are 9
>>> farenheit degrees for every Centigrade degree, so it was an easy
conversion
>>> to about 5 degrees Rankine.
>>>
>>
>> 9 Fahrenheit degrees for every 5 Celsius degrees.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry for the confusion.  I didn't realize that the conversion to plain
>>> text
>>> would eliminate the ASCII codes too.
>>>
>>>
>> The degree symbol isn't part of ASCII.
>> --
>> David Scheidt
>> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>>
>> You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 4822 (20100131) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
> You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From arvidj at visi.com  Sun Jan 31 11:49:26 2010
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:49:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
References: <AB.62.01403.BCF546B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
	<6417D239C74644E3A41E9BF0EB8C1800@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <9B0C5EA0089E4ACEA11231F0646E6CA8@behavioral.com>

>From Mark ...

>    Now if I can ever stretch the tool budget to include one of these I 
> should be able to use it correctly.

The big take away for me were the two different ways to get good readings. 
The first was to pay the bucks for an adjustable meter. The other was 
suggested by David, the several web pages and nonadjustable meter operating 
manuals - change the emissivity of the object being measured with paint, 
tape, or "3M matte-black self-adhering dots" - found several references to 
them but was unable to find a source for them - to match an inexpensive 
meter.

So I am now in search of some matte black dots that will not give up the 
ghost at high tempuratures.

And if you are in the mood but just a little short on cash, the March HF 
Sidewalk sale will have their 950 degree gun on sale for sale for $26. That 
price plus one of the ubiquitious 20% off coupons would seem like a pretty 
good deal.

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/tabviewer/startBrowseBook.do?bookid=270&preview=&type=RET&simple=

Arvid 

From mark at bradakis.com  Sun Jan 31 13:06:08 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:06:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Why Can't I Reply?
In-Reply-To: <OFF50C6073.79E48AB0-ON642576B9.001C646E-642576B9.001D6FB4@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF50C6073.79E48AB0-ON642576B9.001C646E-642576B9.001D6FB4@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B65E2B0.9090500@bradakis.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Also, the reason that this list is different is that the MOD here makes a 
> valiant effort to reduce spam and other problems most list admins don't 
> spend time/care about.
>
> Also, notice there is no advertising here (like on EVERY yahoo and google 
> group.)
>
> This is one of the last "Old School" lists, and I think it's awesome.  I'm 
> just glad to be a part of it! 8>)
>
> BTW, don't forget to contribute to the list to defer the costs...
>
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
>
>
>   


Thanks for the kind words.  While I do appreciate monetary contributions to
pay the bills, I also appreciate the fact that there are people out 
there who
realize that the lists don't just appear by magic out of nowhere.  There 
is a
man behind the curtain  who puts in some effort to keep the bits flowing.
I've been doing this for over 20 years and there are certainly times I just
want to pull the plug and walk away.  But I doubt that will happen.  I'm
committed to doing what it takes to keep Team.Net on the air, bringing
a bit of happiness to thousands of folks around the world.


mjb.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 31 15:06:44 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:06:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <0157C57CBE474408B3C8732E556FEED1@stargate>
Message-ID: <9A.67.05033.3FEF56B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Ah, apparently not.

The list enforces strict ASCII (American Standard for Coded Information
Interchange) character set, which includes only 95 characters (counting
space).  There are 33 control characters (for a total of 128), but AFAIK the
list server will only allow a very few of those through (tab, newline, etc.)

Anything that takes more than 7 bits is not going to make it through.  All
of those degree symbols, accents, fractions, etc. are not allowed; and will
usually get translated to something else.

--	Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 31 15:14:39 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:14:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter
In-Reply-To: <5BF523F3-1D37-4D97-8063-BBF6A4604445@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <81.2B.05033.FC0066B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Perhaps we can modify the list to allow us to start sending 
> around LaTeX attachments...

Now THAT's funny !	

From jhassall at blacksburg.net  Sun Jan 31 18:06:10 2010
From: jhassall at blacksburg.net (J.C. Hassall)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:06:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case
Message-ID: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net>

We found the long-AWOL Maglite, only to find that the alkaline batteries 
went TU a looooong time ago and are badly corroded into the case.  I've 
picked away as much loose corrosion as possible, but those babies seem 
to be welded in there.  What's a good way to extricate the batteries?  I 
suspect it'll require a chemical solution, as I ran a couple of sheet 
metal screws into the rear battery case and tried to pull, no joy.

tia

jim

-- 
Jim Hassall
Blacksburg VA
'63 TR4 in autox preparation
99% finished, 90% to go

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jan 31 18:12:36 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 05:42:36 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum
 case
In-Reply-To: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net>
Message-ID: <OF781CA73D.565A1544-ON642576BD.0006F697-642576BD.0007205E@mail.megageek.com>

I had this happen to me a while ago.

I just removed the top and bottom part of the flashlight and was able to 
hit the batteries out.  It's a mess, but the flashlight is salvageable!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



"J.C. Hassall" <jhassall at blacksburg.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
02/01/2010 05:31

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case






We found the long-AWOL Maglite, only to find that the alkaline batteries 
went TU a looooong time ago and are badly corroded into the case.  I've 
picked away as much loose corrosion as possible, but those babies seem 
to be welded in there.  What's a good way to extricate the batteries?  I 
suspect it'll require a chemical solution, as I ran a couple of sheet 
metal screws into the rear battery case and tried to pull, no joy.

tia

jim

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Jan 31 18:38:01 2010
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:38:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum
 case
In-Reply-To: <OF781CA73D.565A1544-ON642576BD.0006F697-642576BD.0007205E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <45D06B86F496442F995E85B78A1E1596@Digilink1>

The one thing I'd add to this solution is Kroil.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 8:13 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum
case

I had this happen to me a while ago.

I just removed the top and bottom part of the flashlight and was able to 
hit the batteries out.  It's a mess, but the flashlight is salvageable!

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Jan 31 18:50:45 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:50:45 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum
 case
References: <45D06B86F496442F995E85B78A1E1596@Digilink1>
Message-ID: <1FE7D156B67947CE87B0D05FEEAC5FEB@KARL>

I'd try to figure out the brand of batteries and take them up on their 
"No-Leak" guarantee.

That said, I still have some leaked-in stuff collected around here that's 
never quite made it to the Post Office.

Karl




> The one thing I'd add to this solution is Kroil.
>
> I had this happen to me a while ago.
>
> I just removed the top and bottom part of the flashlight and was able to
> hit the batteries out.  It's a mess, but the flashlight is salvageable!

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sun Jan 31 19:48:14 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:48:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum
 case
In-Reply-To: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net>
References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net>
Message-ID: <4B6640EE.5030609@verizon.net>

I had this happen to a full sized 3 D cell maglite years ago.  I sent it 
back to Mag and they sent me a new one (free) along with a terse note to 
please try to change my batteries more often.

J.C. Hassall wrote:
> We found the long-AWOL Maglite, only to find that the alkaline batteries
> went TU a looooong time ago and are badly corroded into the case. I've
> picked away as much loose corrosion as possible, but those babies seem
> to be welded in there. What's a good way to extricate the batteries? I
> suspect it'll require a chemical solution, as I ran a couple of sheet
> metal screws into the rear battery case and tried to pull, no joy.
>
> tia
>
> jim

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 19:54:26 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:54:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum
 case
In-Reply-To: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net>
References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d41001311854o3a6c9845wbda6e8b8dee1cb51@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 8:06 PM, J.C. Hassall <jhassall at blacksburg.net>wrote:

> We found the long-AWOL Maglite, only to find that the alkaline batteries
> went TU a looooong time ago and are badly corroded into the case.  I've
> picked away as much loose corrosion as possible, but those babies seem to be
> welded in there.  What's a good way to extricate the batteries?  I suspect
> it'll require a chemical solution, as I ran a couple of sheet metal screws
> into the rear battery case and tried to pull, no joy.
>
>
Unless you require a club, toss it, and join the 21st century, and get an
LED flashlight.  lighter, batteries last longer, bulbs don't break when you
drop it.

Failing that, send it to the battery company.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shop at justbrits.com  Sun Jan 31 21:19:38 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 22:19:38 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum
 case
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41001311854o3a6c9845wbda6e8b8dee1cb51@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net>
	<2400a5d41001311854o3a6c9845wbda6e8b8dee1cb51@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B66565A.9060609@justbrits.com>

<< and get an LED flashlight. lighter, batteries last longer,
bulbs don't break when you drop it. >>

Night-stick abilities are in the DUMPERS tho, Dave!!!

<G>

Anon