From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Feb 1 00:00:14 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:00:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> Message-ID: <8B.CD.05033.DFB766B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > What's a good way to extricate the > batteries? I took a drill to mine. Came apart pretty easy once I had a big hole through the center of the batteries. Light was ruined anyway, though. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Feb 1 00:01:01 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:01:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <4B66565A.9060609@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <9A.DC.09832.D2C766B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > Night-stick abilities are in the DUMPERS tho, Dave!!! Might be mistaken, but I believe you can get either an LED version of the old 5 D-cell Mag lite; or an LED conversion that fits the incandescent version. Add one of the billet 'knobs' for the end, available in any cop shop, and it's all the night stick you'll need. But mine still has a halogen bulb in it, as I've never had any trouble with breaking bulbs, and I make it a habit to change the batteries every year whether they need it or not. Randall From pat at hornesystemstx.com Mon Feb 1 08:29:30 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:29:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> Message-ID: <4B66F35A.4070205@hornesystemstx.com> Doesn't either Maglite or the battery manufacturer have a warranty that covers this? Peace, Pat Thusly spake J.C. Hassall, On 1/31/2010 7:06 PM: > We found the long-AWOL Maglite, only to find that the alkaline > batteries went TU a looooong time ago and are badly corroded into the > case. I've picked away as much loose corrosion as possible, but those > babies seem to be welded in there. What's a good way to extricate the > batteries? I suspect it'll require a chemical solution, as I ran a > couple of sheet metal screws into the rear battery case and tried to > pull, no joy. > > tia > > jim > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Feb 1 11:53:33 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:53:33 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] How bad is Sprint wireless service Message-ID: <3B7B8AE2CEE1433984D0A8AD873C529F@KARL> How bad is Sprint currently ? We've had Verizon wireless for years - since they bought out Ameritech Cellular, which we had for years before that. 4 phones on a family plan, CHicago area, very limited travel, mostly east of the Mississippi. Our calls are clear (other than the limitations of some phones) - no concerns at all about that. Maybe one or two times a year I get a bad connection, and I don't remember a dropped connection to a land line for many years. Anywhere we travel, it's just fine, and has been so for years. Over that time lots of friends and relatives have had AT&T and Sprint, and their service, connections, clarity,. etc. were never anywhere near as good as ours, so we've continued with Verizon. Several people we talk with often had Sprint, and when we talked to any of them we nearly always a bad connection, dropped call, etc. All of them switched to Verizon a few years ago and are happy. Now, however, we'd all like smart phones and Verizon, like AT&T and Sprint, requires a data plan for smart phones. With Verizon or AT&T, the unlimited data plan is $30 plus tax. After tax, I'm looking at nearly doubling the $170 per month I now pay. With Sprint, I can add unlimited data plans to all 4 phones for about $10 per month per phone, including tax. $120 less. Verizon can't / won't compete, saying that their network is that much better, speeds higher, etc. So - any current Sprint users with a smart phone, using e-mail etc., who can tell me about their service, speed, coverage, etc. ?? Thanks ! Karl "Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 12:06:42 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 14:06:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <9A.DC.09832.D2C766B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <4B66565A.9060609@justbrits.com> <9A.DC.09832.D2C766B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002011106w5d4a74f1t77ab98af365b2dea@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Randall wrote: > > Night-stick abilities are in the DUMPERS tho, Dave!!! > > Might be mistaken, but I believe you can get either an LED version of the > old 5 D-cell Mag lite; or an LED conversion that fits the incandescent > version. > > MAG are about five years behind the curve when it comes to LEDs. they've got good optics, but their emitters and drivers are so-so. They're on the same level as the five buck things hanging on pegs next to cash registers. It'd be nice if MAG could get their act together and build a decent LED flashlight, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't think there's a 5D version of the LED flashlight, just of 2 and three cell versions, and the 2AA one. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Feb 1 12:18:26 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 13:18:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case References: <4B66565A.9060609@justbrits.com><9A.DC.09832.D2C766B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> <2400a5d41002011106w5d4a74f1t77ab98af365b2dea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59537C521CA44D59869B8184F8ECF703@KARL> > I don't think there's a 5D version of the LED flashlight, just of 2 and > three cell versions, and the 2AA one. And the one AAA-cell "Solitaire" model - my favorite pocket flashlight until the tiny and powerful Photon Micro Light came out. Karl From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Feb 1 12:38:05 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:38:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002011106w5d4a74f1t77ab98af365b2dea@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B66565A.9060609@justbrits.com> <9A.DC.09832.D2C766B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> <2400a5d41002011106w5d4a74f1t77ab98af365b2dea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A15FACB297A4F6384182E501EE7370A@jdnet.deere.com> > I don't think there's a 5D version of the LED flashlight, Could be, but they are at least up to 4D: http://www.amazon.com/MAGLITE-ST4D096-Cell-Flashlight-Gray/dp/B000IXFNXI And conversions are available for the 5D: http://tinyurl.com/yancnyb I might go for one of those, if my current halogen bulb ever bites it. But this is strictly my 'emergency' flashlight, it probably doesn't log over an hour of usage a year, so the halogen bulb may well outlast me. -- Randall From ericm at lne.com Mon Feb 1 12:53:18 2010 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:53:18 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] How bad is Sprint wireless service In-Reply-To: <3B7B8AE2CEE1433984D0A8AD873C529F@KARL> References: <3B7B8AE2CEE1433984D0A8AD873C529F@KARL> Message-ID: <20100201195318.GA29116@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 12:53:33PM -0600, Karl Vacek wrote: > How bad is Sprint currently ? Not too bad where I am. I'm in a rural mountainous area outside silicon valley. Cell coverage is spotty at my house. Sprint does ok here but not great- my 3g (EVDO on sprint) goes in and out. The phone I have (Palm pre) works fine on 2g. It can also use wifi of course. My wife's Nokia (ATT) doesn't get any 3g at home. Down in the valley, it's better but the difference isn't that great (i.e. it's not so bad at home). But where you are it may be better, or worse. Email works great, it doesn't need that much bandwidth. Web browsing is mostly where I notice 3g vs 2g... some pages load slower at home. Voice quality is ok... better than my ancient Nokia 8290 (ATT) but not land line quality. Disclaimer: I work for Palm. Eric From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Feb 1 12:58:20 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 13:58:20 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] How bad is Sprint wireless service References: <3B7B8AE2CEE1433984D0A8AD873C529F@KARL> <20100201195318.GA29116@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: I bet that makes you very able to comment on who has the best quality overall, and whether I have a legitimate concern. But can you say more, or are you discouraged from doing so by your employer ?? Thanks ! Karl > Disclaimer: I work for Palm. > > Eric From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 13:13:46 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:13:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] How bad is Sprint wireless service In-Reply-To: References: <3B7B8AE2CEE1433984D0A8AD873C529F@KARL> <20100201195318.GA29116@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002011213w48c2e8bsc7c6090e1eb9ce93@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > I bet that makes you very able to comment on who has the best quality > overall, and whether I have a legitimate concern. But can you say more, or > are you discouraged from doing so by your employer ?? > > Telephone companies -- every single one of them! -- suck. It's their main purpose. Which one sucks more depends on where you are, and what your needs are. You need to find people where you're going to use the phones and ask them what they think. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From ericm at lne.com Mon Feb 1 13:27:06 2010 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:27:06 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] How bad is Sprint wireless service In-Reply-To: References: <3B7B8AE2CEE1433984D0A8AD873C529F@KARL> <20100201195318.GA29116@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20100201202706.GB29116@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 01:58:20PM -0600, Karl Vacek wrote: > I bet that makes you very able to comment on who has the best quality > overall, and whether I have a legitimate concern. But can you say more, or > are you discouraged from doing so by your employer ?? I work on securing the phone OS. It's a small computer with the same processing power that I had on my desktop 8-10 years ago. There's a lot of security and cryptography things that I know about and can't talk about, but I don't know anything more about signal quality than any customer would. Eric From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Feb 1 13:35:25 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:35:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter In-Reply-To: <9B0C5EA0089E4ACEA11231F0646E6CA8@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <767111.13073.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> For those with a bit more money and less patience, I just got a flyer today from HF Tools that lists that unit (#96451) fro $29.99 starting today. But where do you get those 20% off coupons? Doug --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > From: Arvid Jedlicka > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter > And if you are in the mood but just a little short on cash, > the March HF Sidewalk sale will have their 950 degree gun on > sale for sale for $26. That price plus one of the > ubiquitious 20% off coupons would seem like a pretty good > deal. > > http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/tabviewer/startBrowseBook.do?bookid=270&preview=&type=RET&simple= From bkahler1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 13:38:15 2010 From: bkahler1 at gmail.com (Brad Kahler) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:38:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter In-Reply-To: <767111.13073.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <9B0C5EA0089E4ACEA11231F0646E6CA8@behavioral.com> <767111.13073.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lately the monthly AARP has had a 20% off coupon in it. I've got three sitting on my desk now waiting to be used. Brad (soon to have a mill drill thanks to a 20% coupon) On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > For those with a bit more money and less patience, I just got a flyer today from HF Tools that lists that unit (#96451) fro $29.99 starting today. > > But where do you get those 20% off coupons? > > Doug > > --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > >> From: Arvid Jedlicka >> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter > >> And if you are in the mood but just a little short on cash, >> the March HF Sidewalk sale will have their 950 degree gun on >> sale for sale for $26. That price plus one of the >> ubiquitious 20% off coupons would seem like a pretty good >> deal. >> >> http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/tabviewer/startBrowseBook.do?bookid=270&p review=&type=RET&simple= > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as bkahler1 at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From ericm at lne.com Mon Feb 1 13:39:09 2010 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:39:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <59537C521CA44D59869B8184F8ECF703@KARL> References: <2400a5d41002011106w5d4a74f1t77ab98af365b2dea@mail.gmail.com> <59537C521CA44D59869B8184F8ECF703@KARL> Message-ID: <20100201203909.GC29116@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 01:18:26PM -0600, Karl Vacek wrote: > >I don't think there's a 5D version of the LED flashlight, just of 2 and > >three cell versions, and the 2AA one. > > > And the one AAA-cell "Solitaire" model - my favorite pocket flashlight > until the tiny and powerful Photon Micro Light came out. I have been really happy with 18650 (lithium laptop batter cell) powered LED flashlights from Deal Extreme. Particularly these: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13095 batteries are about $4 each, a charger is $8. All the LED flashlights are super bright. Eric From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Feb 1 13:39:08 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 14:39:08 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter References: <767111.13073.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470D7B06A31749D798D962FBCCDE3056@KARL> Monthly in Popular Mechanics and American Rifleman (NRA magazine) for two possibilities. Not always 20%, but often, and never less than 10%. Karl > For those with a bit more money and less patience, I just got a flyer > today from HF Tools that lists that unit (#96451) fro $29.99 starting > today. > > But where do you get those 20% off coupons? > > Doug From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 1 13:50:10 2010 From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:50:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter In-Reply-To: <470D7B06A31749D798D962FBCCDE3056@KARL> References: <767111.13073.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <470D7B06A31749D798D962FBCCDE3056@KARL> Message-ID: <35255.24762.qm@web82404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In the back in the ads sections of Car & Driver, Road & Track, Grassroots Motorsports. Randy ________________________________ From: Karl Vacek To: Doug Braun ; Shop Talk List Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 2:39:08 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter Monthly in Popular Mechanics and American Rifleman (NRA magazine) for two possibilities. Not always 20%, but often, and never less than 10%. Karl > For those with a bit more money and less patience, I just got a flyer today from HF Tools that lists that unit (#96451) fro $29.99 starting today. > > But where do you get those 20% off coupons? > > Doug _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From pethier at comcast.net Mon Feb 1 14:46:21 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 21:46:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <20100201203909.GC29116@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <658970543.1709201265060781131.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I think he wants a flashlight with a certain "physical presence", if you get my drift. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Eric Murray" wrote: > From: "Eric Murray" > To: "Karl Vacek" > Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Monday, February 1, 2010 2:39:09 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case > > On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 01:18:26PM -0600, Karl Vacek wrote: > > >I don't think there's a 5D version of the LED flashlight, just of 2 > and > > >three cell versions, and the 2AA one. > > > > > > And the one AAA-cell "Solitaire" model - my favorite pocket > flashlight > > until the tiny and powerful Photon Micro Light came out. > > > I have been really happy with 18650 (lithium laptop batter cell) > powered LED flashlights from Deal Extreme. > > Particularly these: > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13095 > > batteries are about $4 each, a charger is $8. > All the LED flashlights are super bright. > > > Eric From brad.kahler at 141.com Mon Feb 1 15:00:48 2010 From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:00:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature mete Message-ID: <4B674F10.5020304@141.com> Lately the monthly AARP has had a 20% off coupon in it. I've got three sitting on my desk now waiting to be used. Brad (soon to have a mill drill thanks to a 20% coupon) From jhassall at blacksburg.net Mon Feb 1 19:13:34 2010 From: jhassall at blacksburg.net (J.C. Hassall) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:13:34 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> Message-ID: <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> On 1/31/2010 8:06 PM, J.C. Hassall wrote: > We found the long-AWOL Maglite, [...deletia...] Tnx to all who replied. I didn't think about the warranty aspect. Hah! It goes back to Maglite tomorrow, let them deal with the mess. It'll be interesting to see if I get this light back or a replacement. Stay tuned.... jim -- Jim Hassall Blacksburg VA '63 TR4 in autox preparation 99% finished, 90% to go From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 19:45:42 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 21:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002011845v306ba699v8c2931b4cc1d0b94@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:13 PM, J.C. Hassall wrote: > On 1/31/2010 8:06 PM, J.C. Hassall wrote: > >> We found the long-AWOL Maglite, >> > [...deletia...] > > Tnx to all who replied. I didn't think about the warranty aspect. Hah! > It goes back to Maglite tomorrow, let them deal with the mess. It'll be > interesting to see if I get this light back or a replacement. Stay > tuned.... A replacement. It's not worth spending effort on. (unless they want to figure out what battery company to blame.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From cavanadd at verizon.net Mon Feb 1 19:59:03 2010 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:59:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter In-Reply-To: <767111.13073.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <767111.13073.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B6794F7.6090203@verizon.net> Doug Braun wrote: > For those with a bit more money and less patience, I just got a flyer today from HF Tools that lists that unit (#96451) fro $29.99 starting today. > > But where do you get those 20% off coupons? > > Doug > Right here: > http://www.harborfreightusa.com/html/MagazineLanders/3-general/images/20_c.jpg From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Feb 1 20:13:43 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:13:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter In-Reply-To: <4B674F10.5020304@141.com> Message-ID: <580571.83437.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am now the happy owner of a HF IR thermometer, which cost $23.99 thanks to the advice from this list! Doug From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Feb 1 20:58:42 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha Message-ID: <721937.19072.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was wondering: Are there any Toyota owners on the list who have actually worked on, or at least looked at, the type of gas pedal that is giving all the trouble? I finally saw a Toyota pres release that described the problem, but it was sort of dumbed-down. Doug From shiples at comcast.net Mon Feb 1 22:07:25 2010 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:07:25 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <721937.19072.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100201205055.037ceb60@mail.comcast.net> At 07:58 PM 2/1/2010 -0800, Doug Braun wrote: >I was wondering: Are there any Toyota owners on the list who have >actually worked on, or at least looked at, the type of gas pedal that is >giving all the trouble? > >I finally saw a Toyota pres release that described the problem, but it was >sort of dumbed-down. What was interesting to me is that this is a media event. My Eagle Talon was recalled in 1996 for a sticking throttle and nothing was said. Guess it isn't any fun scaring anyone if it's a small segment of the population. "I'll never buy another Toyota because of this". What a bunch of morans. Did I tell you about the time I didn't tighten the bolt that connected the steering column to the rack on my Lotus 7 and it came apart in traffic? Yes, I am a moron, but THAT'S scary. Helpful driving hint, when all else fails apply the brakes. From eric at megageek.com Mon Feb 1 22:14:16 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:44:16 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > For those with a bit more money and less patience, I just got a flyer today from HF Tools that lists that unit (#96451) fro $29.99 starting today. > > But where do you get those 20% off coupons? > > Doug Every car mag has one in it. In fact, I have a few here (but I can't find a local HF store!) 8>) In fact, the one I'm looking at points to this website... http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/common/displayPage.do?pageFile=magurl6.html The 20% off coupon is about 1/3 of the way down. Enjoy! (Did anyone every check to see if there is a difference between "HarborFreight.com" and "harborfreightUSA.com"? It looks almost like a different company. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From tvacc at lotusowners.com Mon Feb 1 22:47:32 2010 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:47:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <1AF73D91A1394962A6E30341C672936E@amicroinc.local> References: <721937.19072.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1AF73D91A1394962A6E30341C672936E@amicroinc.local> Message-ID: <1D76A10E279244ABAEDE397FFE481CC8@amicroinc.local> What I have been told is the following. Toyota tried to put a "feel" into the pedal so that it was not a normal DBW feeling...like my MINI which is essentially a on and off switch. Same feeling all the way through the travel. Toyota wanted it to feel like a throttle CABLE....with it getting progressively harder the further you went down. They are taking that out and stiffening up the pedal. I also heard that several dealers feel that the US Govt got involved by forcing Toyota to take the cars off the sales and stop production and then promised them a quick approval if they did so. GM...now owned by the US Govt....then offered a Toyota rebate....Co-incidence or not.....you be the judge. Toyotas off the market...more GM sales... I am not saying this is what happened...just that some dealers feel this is what happened. Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steve Shipley Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:37 AM To: Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha At 07:58 PM 2/1/2010 -0800, Doug Braun wrote: >I was wondering: Are there any Toyota owners on the list who have >actually worked on, or at least looked at, the type of gas pedal that is >giving all the trouble? > >I finally saw a Toyota pres release that described the problem, but it was >sort of dumbed-down. What was interesting to me is that this is a media event. My Eagle Talon was recalled in 1996 for a sticking throttle and nothing was said. Guess it isn't any fun scaring anyone if it's a small segment of the population. "I'll never buy another Toyota because of this". What a bunch of morans. Did I tell you about the time I didn't tighten the bolt that connected the steering column to the rack on my Lotus 7 and it came apart in traffic? Yes, I am a moron, but THAT'S scary. Helpful driving hint, when all else fails apply the brakes. Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4826 (20100202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4826 (20100202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From eric at megageek.com Mon Feb 1 23:09:49 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:39:49 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20100201205055.037ceb60@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Steve writes... >What was interesting to me is that this is a media event. My Eagle Talon >was recalled in 1996 for a sticking throttle and nothing was said. Guess >it isn't any fun scaring anyone if it's a small segment of the popul Steve, the problem is with the shear amount of cars affected. The entire Eagle marquee, didn't SELL as many vehicles that is affected by this single recall. (It is the largest single recall ever in US history.) It is a serious problem. Most "normal" people could figure out to hit the brakes, and shift into neutral. But most drivers aren't "normal!" Remember, we are NOT representative of the average car driving public. When I was a cop, back in the early nineties, we had a driver of a VW (Golf I believe) who's linkage broke and forced the car into full throttle. She called 911 as she was speeding down a major highway (Rt 78) She covered most of the state as the Troopers and local PD's tried to clear a path for her. The hope was that she would be able to shift it into neutral (for some reason it was jammed.) The brakes lasted about 10 minutes and were completely gone (but were only able to slow the car down for that time. As she approached the NYC border, things were tense. She had a half tank of gas left, and there was nothing left to try. She swerved into the grassy median at over 100 MPH. The car was totally ripped apart. Due to all the safety features of the car's body, she survived but with injuries. The car was unrecognizable after the accident. Three things saved her that night. The cell phone, the fact that it was late (and almost no traffic on the road), and the safety design of that car. The investigation showed it was a problem with the linkage that forced the car in full throttle and prevented the A/T from being shifted in neutral. One thing that I remember during the AAR, was that if we would have let her intentionally hit a police car from behind, and the lead car try to stop, it might have worked. BUT, the police department would have been liable for ALL injuries she sustained. By letting her run off the road, the police departments weren't liable. Now you know why I hate the fact that Americans are so litigious. This wasn't a decision that was made that night, but it was investigated and became policy for situations like this. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Feb 2 01:10:24 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:10:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It is a serious problem. Most "normal" people could figure > out to hit the > brakes, and shift into neutral. But most drivers aren't "normal!" > Remember, we are NOT representative of the average car driving public. With respect, Moose, I believe the problem goes deeper than that. I don't fully understand the issues, but one of the people killed was a 20 year veteran of the California Highway Patrol. After 20 years working CHP, I have to believe he was reasonably adept at dealing with emergency situations. Some of the salient points seem to be: 1) Shifting to neutral is not as easy as moving the lever til the pointer shows 'N'. You apparently have to push one button/paddle to switch from fully automatic to semi-manual, then a different paddle to walk through the gears to neutral. However, since evidence seems to be mounting that the problem is NOT a mechanical linkage problem, but rather the "throttle computer" going rogue; there is at least some possibility in my mind that the transmission computer was likewise unresponsive for the same reason. 2) On the model in question, there is no 'key' to turn off. There is a button that you have to push and hold continuously for 3 seconds (some people have reported that it takes longer) in order to shut the engine off. This is not mentioned anywhere except a footnote in the user's manual (that says "never do this"). And as in 1), this is a computer-controlled function. If the computer doesn't work, the button doesn't work. 3) With the engine at full throttle, there is no vacuum to the brake booster. With 300+ bhp available and no vacuum boost, it takes an incredible amount of force on the pedal just to hold the car stopped. Witnesses reported seeing the brakes "on fire", which implies to me that they were overheated to uselessness anyway. This may be symptomatic of the "I got it" syndrome, where the driver felt he could control the speed rather than having to immediately stop the car; but it could also indicate that the brakes (being the only control not operated by a computer) were the only control still responding to driver input. I work as a professional programmer on a somewhat similar network, bunch of microprocessors talking to each other over CAN bus. In most cases, handling of CAN traffic is done at a very high priority, so if CAN traffic is much higher than expected, lower priority functions (like say, checking the power button status) might not get done. Toyota's stories of defective accelerator pedal assemblies, and thick floor mats, simply do not explain the observed facts. And, the recalls do include updated computer firmware. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." YMMV, etc. Randall From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 02:55:46 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:25:46 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Randal writes... >With respect, Moose, I believe the problem goes deeper than that. I don't >fully understand the issues, but one of the people killed was a 20 year >veteran of the California Highway Patrol. After 20 years working CHP, I >have to believe he was reasonably adept at dealing with emergency >situations. Some of the salient points seem to be: I don't want anyone to think that I'm taking Toyota's side on this issue. In fact, I despise Toyotas as I feel they are 'dumbing down' the automarket. But that is just a personal opinion and I don't want to start any Marquee wars here. What I was trying to say was that the reason this recall is such big news, and no one hear of Steve's Eagle recall for (I believe) a similar problem was the amount of cars that are involved. I was not aware of the other issues you mentioned, but it does get filed in my "another reason to not like Toyota" file. I would not put it past Toyota to try to hide MAJOR design flaws with "floor mats." In fact, I was wondering why they just didn't remove/replace the floor mats and continue sales. But your assumptions support the facts! For the people here that think the government is trying to deal GM a better hand, you are giving WAY TOO much credit to our government. There is no way they could pull off something like this. As for the GM rebate, it is what ANY major car company CEO should do right now. That is business 101. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From kennedybc at comcast.net Tue Feb 2 07:47:23 2010 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 06:47:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why didn't she turn the ignition off? I heard the advice for the Toyota problem was to stomp on the brakes, shift to neutral and turn the ignition off. It seems to me I could grab the key more quickly than I can find neutral. Brian K On 2/1/10 10:09 PM, "eric at megageek.com" wrote: > Steve writes... > >> What was interesting to me is that this is a media event. My Eagle Talon >> was recalled in 1996 for a sticking throttle and nothing was said. Guess >> it isn't any fun scaring anyone if it's a small segment of the popul > > > Steve, the problem is with the shear amount of cars affected. The entire > Eagle marquee, didn't SELL as many vehicles that is affected by this > single recall. (It is the largest single recall ever in US history.) > > It is a serious problem. Most "normal" people could figure out to hit the > brakes, and shift into neutral. But most drivers aren't "normal!" > Remember, we are NOT representative of the average car driving public. > > When I was a cop, back in the early nineties, we had a driver of a VW > (Golf I believe) who's linkage broke and forced the car into full > throttle. She called 911 as she was speeding down a major highway (Rt 78) > She covered most of the state as the Troopers and local PD's tried to > clear a path for her. The hope was that she would be able to shift it > into neutral (for some reason it was jammed.) The brakes lasted about 10 > minutes and were completely gone (but were only able to slow the car down > for that time. As she approached the NYC border, things were tense. She > had a half tank of gas left, and there was nothing left to try. > > She swerved into the grassy median at over 100 MPH. The car was totally > ripped apart. Due to all the safety features of the car's body, she > survived but with injuries. The car was unrecognizable after the > accident. > > Three things saved her that night. The cell phone, the fact that it was > late (and almost no traffic on the road), and the safety design of that > car. > > The investigation showed it was a problem with the linkage that forced the > car in full throttle and prevented the A/T from being shifted in neutral. > > One thing that I remember during the AAR, was that if we would have let > her intentionally hit a police car from behind, and the lead car try to > stop, it might have worked. BUT, the police department would have been > liable for ALL injuries she sustained. By letting her run off the road, > the police departments weren't liable. Now you know why I hate the fact > that Americans are so litigious. This wasn't a decision that was made > that night, but it was investigated and became policy for situations like > this. > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson From clydestutzman at att.net Tue Feb 2 06:50:37 2010 From: clydestutzman at att.net (Clyde Stutzman) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 07:50:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> Message-ID: >From http://www.maglite.com/pdf/CustServ/C_WHS_6_041112004325022.pdf LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY Mag Instrument, Inc. (Mag) warrants to the original owner that this flashlight is free from defects in parts and workmanship for the life of that owner. Mag or an authorized Mag Warranty Service Center will, free of charge, repair the flashlight or, at its option, replace a defective flashlight or component. (Mag does not warrant the future availability of any particular colors, markings or decorations, and reserves the option to replace a custom flashlight with a standard flashlight.) Registration is not required for warranty coverage. This warranty is in lieu of all other warranties and conditions, express or implied. EXCLUSIONS: This warranty does not cover any of the following: 1. Battery exhaustion; 2. Battery leakage; 3. Lamp burnout; or 4. Damage to or failure of the flashlight or any component thereof due to alteration, misuse, battery leakage or lack of maintenance. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of J.C. Hassall Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 8:14 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case On 1/31/2010 8:06 PM, J.C. Hassall wrote: > We found the long-AWOL Maglite, [...deletia...] Tnx to all who replied. I didn't think about the warranty aspect. Hah! It goes back to Maglite tomorrow, let them deal with the mess. It'll be interesting to see if I get this light back or a replacement. Stay tuned.... jim -- Jim Hassall Blacksburg VA '63 TR4 in autox preparation 99% finished, 90% to go Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as clydestutzman at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From rs1121 at earthlink.net Tue Feb 2 10:42:32 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:42:32 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <1D76A10E279244ABAEDE397FFE481CC8@amicroinc.local> References: <721937.19072.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1AF73D91A1394962A6E30341C672936E@amicroinc.local> <1D76A10E279244ABAEDE397FFE481CC8@amicroinc.local> Message-ID: <05f001caa42f$198adeb0$4ca09c10$@net> That was my first thought also - how much better if the DOT is owned by the same people who own you! Thanks Ron Schmittou Ron_S at agps.us Anna Office (972) 369-8640 Ext 210 Auto Fwd (469) 844-5482 Cell (214) 862-1871 -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tony Vaccaro Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 11:48 PM To: 'Steve Shipley'; Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha I also heard that several dealers feel that the US Govt got involved by forcing Toyota to take the cars off the sales and stop production and then promised them a quick approval if they did so. GM...now owned by the US Govt....then offered a Toyota rebate....Co-incidence or not.....you be the judge. Toyotas off the market...more GM sales... From marka at maracing.com Tue Feb 2 12:42:15 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:42:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Brian Kennedy wrote: > Why didn't she turn the ignition off? I heard the advice for the Toyota > problem was to stomp on the brakes, shift to neutral and turn the > ignition off. It seems to me I could grab the key more quickly than I > can find neutral. At least one of the cars in question has a push button start/stop, not a key based one, as I understand it. It'll be interesting to hear what the real story is about all this. I'm not really buying everything folks are saying right now. There are details about the mechanical accelerator pedals here: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exclusive-ttac-takes-apart-both-toyota-gas-pedals/ Mark From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Tue Feb 2 12:48:14 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> If you just turn the key off you loose power steering and brakes..... I have a Nissan with a "Smart Key" and I got to thinking about what to do.....I decided to see how it worked. When I was driving I couldn't turn it off by pushing the "Stop/Start" button. I tried shifting into neutral and it still wouldn't turn off. I called the service rep at my favorite dealer and asked him....he wasn't aware that you couldn't turn it off this way either....He suggested that I shift into neutral and let the rev limiter do its job and save the engine (hopefully), pull over and when you come to a stop, turn the engine off..... I too am skeptical that Toyota's problem is all mechanical......who programs their computer? Microsoft? -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Brian Kennedy Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:47 AM To: Team shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha Why didn't she turn the ignition off? I heard the advice for the Toyota problem was to stomp on the brakes, shift to neutral and turn the ignition off. It seems to me I could grab the key more quickly than I can find neutral. Brian K From arvidj at visi.com Tue Feb 2 12:51:27 2010 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:51:27 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha References: Message-ID: <1A016F3798454F8E8A28C429C0FD6F86@behavioral.com> I discussed this with my wife and we concluded that the chance of locking up the steering wheel needed to be considered. We had put it at the end of the list. Attempt to shift to neutral then attempt to slow with the brakes then attempt to turn of the key. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kennedy" To: "Team shop-talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha > Why didn't she turn the ignition off? I heard the advice for the Toyota > problem was to stomp on the brakes, shift to neutral and turn the ignition > off. It seems to me I could grab the key more quickly than I can find > neutral. > Brian K y From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Feb 2 12:53:22 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:53:22 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC636@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Brian Kennedy > > Why didn't she turn the ignition off? As someone else pointed out - it was a keyless ignition - you have to push the stop button and hold it down and it supposedly wasn't responding. Still, the recall and total stoppage of selling Toyotas seems a bit extreme. The problem has only affected a very small number of cars (less than 10?) out of hundreds of thousands (or would that be millions?). Yes, it's still serious, but it's not like it was killing people left and right (and I am sorry for those that did get killed). My '96 Ford Ranger was just subject to a recall - using the cruise control can cause an under-hood fire. Ford had to recall, hundreds of thousands of Ranger, Explorers, F-150, and many models of their cars (they used the same system on a lot of their vehicles), to replace a harness under the hood. Yes, it has potential problems, but my truck managed to run for 120,000+ miles and 14 years without catching on fire. Just like there are hundreds of thousands of Toyotas out there that have not had their throttle stick. They definitely do need to fix the cars under recall, but the media has hyped this one up a bit too much (although there seems to be indications that Toyota was trying to cover things up, maybe they were just trying to determine what was happening)... Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Feb 2 13:00:27 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:00:27 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Clyde Stutzman > > LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY Mag Instrument, Inc. (Mag) > <...> > EXCLUSIONS: This warranty does not cover any of the following: > <...> > 2. Battery leakage; I wouldn't expect Mag to replace the flashlight because the battery failed. But I would expect the battery company to replace it when their battery failed. In fact, they did just that for me several years ago. I think it was the Eveready batteries that leaked and became stuck in my flashlight. I sent the tube of the flashlight into them (no need to ship the heavy extra parts - just enough to prove the batteries were stuck and leaking) and they sent me a check for a new Maglight. I had another one go bad (keep by the bed in case the lights go out) - the batteries leaked after about a year. I have to send that one off to Eveready too... Tim Mullen From clydestutzman at att.net Tue Feb 2 13:14:51 2010 From: clydestutzman at att.net (Clyde Stutzman) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:14:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <585F16352E494003A95C4B09066D37DF@DESKTOP> From: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=A0LEVIZ5hmhLe4MB3I4PxQt.;_ylu=X 3oDMTExNGFsN2V0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNwRjb2xvA3JlNAR2dGlkAwRsA1dTMQ--?qid=20090207 051755AAQKpUC The people who make MagLites have a deal with Duracell, EverReady, and Ray-o-Vac that if one of their batteries fails (and expands, and gets stuck), then you get a new flashlight. Read what Mag says, "Mag Instrument does not warrant against battery leakage, however, we do have agreements with Duracell, Eveready and Ray-O-Vac that allow us to replace your flashlight. If one of these brands of batteries is stuck (by leaking in your flashlight), send the flashlight to us and we will repair or replace the entire flashlight at no charge to you. We recommend that you ship the flashlight UPS or Postal Insured for tracking purposes. Please send to; Mag Instrument, Inc., Attn; Warranty Dept., 1721 E. Locust St., Ontario, Ca. 91761-7769. You pay the freight to us and we pay it going back. Please also include a letter with your name, address, phone number and a description of the problem. Don't forget to indicate what brand of batteries is inside if you know. We will check to verify that it is Duracell, Eveready and Ray-O-Vac; and if it is, we will send you a new flashlight at no charge. Occasionally we open the flashlight and we find it contains leaking batteries that are not Duracell, Eveready and Ray-O-Vac. In cases of "off-brand" battery leakage, we can replace your flashlight for a charge of -- $12.00 plus your state's sales tax for a 'C' or 'D' Mag-LiteR flashlight, or $8.00 plus tax for a Mini-MagliteR flashlight." -----Original Message----- From: Mullen, Tim (IS) [mailto:Tim.Mullen at ngc.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 2:00 PM To: Clyde Stutzman; J.C. Hassall; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case Clyde Stutzman > > LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY Mag Instrument, Inc. (Mag) <...> > EXCLUSIONS: This warranty does not cover any of the following: > <...> > 2. Battery leakage; I wouldn't expect Mag to replace the flashlight because the battery failed. But I would expect the battery company to replace it when their battery failed. In fact, they did just that for me several years ago. I think it was the Eveready batteries that leaked and became stuck in my flashlight. I sent the tube of the flashlight into them (no need to ship the heavy extra parts - just enough to prove the batteries were stuck and leaking) and they sent me a check for a new Maglight. I had another one go bad (keep by the bed in case the lights go out) - the batteries leaked after about a year. I have to send that one off to Eveready too... Tim Mullen From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Feb 2 13:18:00 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:18:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <741A36459AF0488A9B6F407A6395D182@jdnet.deere.com> > For the people here that think the government is trying to > deal GM a better hand, you are giving WAY TOO much credit to > our government. Oddly enough, I actually see it the other way around. From my vantage, it looks like the NHTSA (at least) was deliberately trying to sweep this problem under the carpet. After that CHP officer & his family were killed, it took some pretty determined digging by the news media to ferret out all the "mis-filed" reports of similar incidents and reveal the true statistics: http://tinyurl.com/ykom485 But in fairness, I don't think they were trying to favor anyone except themselves. If there are no problems, the folks at NHTSA have a lot less work to do, and they get paid the same whether there are recalls or not. "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence." -- Randall From shochschild at att.net Tue Feb 2 13:33:05 2010 From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:33:05 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: <4B688C01.90500@att.net> I have heard that if you push in the button and hold it in, it turns off. Maybe it was on NPR?? Gerald Brazil wrote: > If you just turn the key off you loose power steering and brakes..... > > I have a Nissan with a "Smart Key" and I got to thinking about what to > do.....I decided to see how it worked. When I was driving I couldn't turn it > off by pushing the "Stop/Start" button. From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Feb 2 13:41:32 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:41:32 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC673@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Gerald Brazil wrote: > > If you just turn the key off you loose power steering and brakes..... No, if you turn off the key and put it in NEUTRAL, you lose power steering and brakes. If you turn off the key and LEAVE IT IN GEAR, the engine will continue to turn over (the transmission will drive the engine), and you will continue to have hydraulic power steering (not electrical), and power bakes - the engine will be pulling vacuum. Even if it doesn't continue to have vacuum, the power brakes should be good for 4 or 5 operations. If you don't think this is correct, find an empty road and give it a try Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I discussed this with my wife and we concluded that the chance of locking up > the steering wheel needed to be considered. We had put it at the end of the > list. Attempt to shift to neutral then attempt to slow with the brakes then > attempt to turn of the key. On every car I've ever driven that had a locking steering column, there is an "Off" position, and then a "Locked" position. Most have required a lever to be pushed, the key to be pushed in an extra amount, or a quarter turn of the key to go from "Off" to "Locked" positions. It is very simple to turn off a key and not lock the steering - but most people just automatically have learned to "do the extra step" that you don't even notice it. All you have to do is to think about it, and turn the key ONE CLICK and no more. I have done it. I taught my kids to do it when they were learning to drive. I've made my wife do it. All so they would know what to expect if they ever had to do it in an emergency. Again, if this is something you don't feel comfortable about, go find an empty road (or parking lot) and try it once. Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 13:47:14 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:47:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002021247q771b91b9see80ed6a4eccde14@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Gerald Brazil wrote: > If you just turn the key off you loose power steering and brakes..... > > I have a Nissan with a "Smart Key" and I got to thinking about what to > do.....I decided to see how it worked. When I was driving I couldn't turn > it > off by pushing the "Stop/Start" button. I tried shifting into neutral and > it > still wouldn't turn off. I called the service rep at my favorite dealer and > asked him....he wasn't aware that you couldn't turn it off this way > either....He suggested that I shift into neutral and let the rev limiter do > its job and save the engine (hopefully), pull over and when you come to a > stop, turn the engine off..... > > Who gives a crap about the engine? put it in neutral. If the engine blows up, at least you're not dead. once you've stopped, you get the car maker to buy you a new one. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From chad at linuxeg.com Tue Feb 2 14:09:05 2010 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:09:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <1A016F3798454F8E8A28C429C0FD6F86@behavioral.com> References: <1A016F3798454F8E8A28C429C0FD6F86@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <4B689471.7080702@linuxeg.com> Machine and computer designers need to watch Star Trek "The Ultimate Computer", To quote Dr. McCoy "* *Fantastic machine, the M-5: no off-switch." chad > >> Why didn't she turn the ignition off? From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Feb 2 14:22:07 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:22:07 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC636@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC636@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <2CCE8B1CC66D42929F378261D6F12EB1@jdnet.deere.com> > The problem has only affected a very small > number of cars (less than 10?) Might be a bit higher than that ... ISTR 19 deaths are attributed and over 1000 incidents reported to authorities. Apparently many more were reported to dealers and not reported to authorities; for example the car that killed the CHP officer in CA had previously been reported to the dealer that owned it, but no match was found in NHTSA records, apparently indicating the dealer had not forwarded the complaint (no surprise there). The anecdotes seem pretty compelling too, although of course Toyota is innocent until proven guilty. One fellow had already removed the mats entirely from his Tacoma, because it suddenly tried to accelerate into a busy intersection while he was sitting stopped at a traffic light with his foot on the brake. The second time it happened while he was driving and he got involved in an accident. (Sorry, I didn't save a link to the story.) And this shit has been going on since at least 1999! http://www.thefederalregister.com/d.p/2003-09-22-03-23959 -- Randall From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Feb 2 14:24:13 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:24:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Gerald Brazil wrote: > If you just turn the key off you loose power steering and brakes..... Speaking of brakes... where are they? No modern car has more engine horsepower than brake, unless really poorly maintained. 60-0 in, say, 125' takes what, less than 2 seconds? How many cars go 0-60 in under 2? Stomp the brakes, pull over, and don't release 'em until you get the motor shut off or out of gear. Why doesn't this work? -- David Hillman From opposumking at verizon.net Tue Feb 2 05:55:42 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 07:55:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha References: <721937.19072.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37FA74A7E6B94E03A38A215CCFE0EC6E@mde.state.md.us> This appears to have some very good information and details on the throttle. It also clarifies the differences between the Japanese market throttles and North American throttles. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Braun" To: "Shop-Talk List" Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 10:58 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha >I was wondering: Are there any Toyota owners on the list who have actually >worked on, or at least looked at, the type of gas pedal that is giving all >the trouble? > > I finally saw a Toyota pres release that described the problem, but it was > sort of dumbed-down. > > Doug From mdporter at dfn.com Tue Feb 2 15:20:55 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:20:55 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> David Hillman wrote: > > Stomp the brakes, pull over, and don't release 'em until you get > the motor shut off or out of gear. Why doesn't this work? > Umm, that little thing known as kinetic energy? If you're going sixty, the brakes can dissipate that energy reasonably quickly as heat--as long as there's no additional energy being added. However, if that engine is going full chat and producing near peak horsepower, adding to the kinetic energy of the vehicle as the brakes are trying to subtract from it, it's a losing proposition. Physics wins. e_sub_k=m * v-squared Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From tvacc at lotusowners.com Tue Feb 2 15:26:22 2010 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:26:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: It seems to me that it would be easy to put a circuit in the cars computer that would override the dbw pedal if it sensed that the throttle was more than 1/4 down (or something like that) and the brake was full on. At no time (unless you are doing burnouts) should the brake be full on the the throttle depressed more than 1/4 or 1/8 of the way. Seems like a no brainer to me. Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of shochschild at att.net Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:16 PM To: Gerald Brazil Cc: 'Team shop-talk' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha I have heard that if you push in the button and hold it in, it turns off. Maybe it was on NPR?? Gerald Brazil wrote: > If you just turn the key off you loose power steering and brakes..... > > I have a Nissan with a "Smart Key" and I got to thinking about what to > do.....I decided to see how it worked. When I was driving I couldn't turn it > off by pushing the "Stop/Start" button. Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4829 (20100202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4829 (20100202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Feb 2 16:17:37 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:17:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: > It seems to me that it would be easy to put a circuit in the > cars computer that would override the dbw pedal if it sensed > that the throttle was more than 1/4 down (or something like > that) and the brake was full on. And in fact, that is (quietly) part of the Toyota recall campaign. With any luck, it will actually solve the problem without them ever admitting it was anything more than floor mats and defective, American made pedal assemblies. -- Randall From mdporter at dfn.com Tue Feb 2 16:38:34 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:38:34 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> Message-ID: <4B68B77A.8080204@dfn.com> Michael Porter wrote: > > e_sub_k=m * v-squared > > Oops, sorry, forgot it's a mean value. Should be: e_sub_k=1/2 * m * v-squared Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Feb 2 16:38:51 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:38:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Michael Porter wrote: > Umm, that little thing known as kinetic energy? If you're going sixty, the > brakes can dissipate that energy reasonably quickly as heat--as long as > there's no additional energy being added. However, if that engine is going > full chat and producing near peak horsepower, adding to the kinetic energy of > the vehicle as the brakes are trying to subtract from it, it's a losing > proposition. Physics wins. > > e_sub_k=m * v-squared There seem to be a bunch of different scenarios getting confused here. Some people, like Michael, are talking about a situation where the engine is running wide-open. Maybe it's me, but that seems highly unlikely. I drive fast, on the street, and I find myself using full-throttle almost exactly never. The only times I've been there in my F150 are on race tracks ( recon runs to check an autocross course, and running out to retrieve broken/stuck racecars at Autobahn and various frozen lakes in Michigan ). Now granted, a fullsize pickup isn't very sporty, but I drive my wife's 295hp Saab sometimes, and there's no remotely legal situation where you can get much beyond half-throttle. It was very difficult to reach WOT in any marginally-powerful sporty car that I've owned. It seems outrageously unlikely to me that there a bunch of people driving... . Certain 2009-2010 RAV4 . Certain 2009-2010 Corolla . 2009-2010 Matrix . 2005-2010 Avalon . Certain 2007-2010 Camry . Certain 2010 Highlander . 2007-2010 Tundra . 2008-2010 Sequoia ...who are getting the pedal to the metal very often. So if you _aren't_ mashing the gas, I still think the vehicles brakes will stop you. And in several of those vehicles, like a 132hp 2010 Corolla, I'm still betting on the brakes even if you are. Fwiw, the same Press Release from Toyota ( where I got the vehicle list ) says; "In the event that a driver experiences an accelerator pedal that sticks in a partial open throttle position or returns slowly to idle position, the vehicle can be controlled with firm and steady application of the brakes. The brakes should not be pumped repeatedly because it could deplete vacuum assist, requiring stronger brake pedal pressure. The vehicle should be driven to the nearest safe location, the engine shut off and a Toyota dealer contacted for assistance." -- David Hillman From bjzwissler at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 16:44:01 2010 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:44:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: <4B68B8C1.2030100@gmail.com> According to a story I heard on NPR, many manufacturer's do just that (noted were GM and Chrysler). Toyota and Honda were cited as having decided not to include a throttle override when the brakes were depressed. Also reported was that Toyota was rushing such a software feature for future upgrades to their engine controls. I know for a fact that the old DaimlerChrysler had a "drive by wire" policy that said a throttle override feature must be included to protect for just these situations. NPR did not have an explanation from Toyota or Honda on why they'd chosen not to include this feature. Ben Zwissler bjzwissler at gmail.com Columbus, IN 1966 Triumph TR4A 1973 MG Midget 1980 Triumph TR8 2007 Mazda RX8 2002 Yamaha FZ1 2003 Honda ST1300 On 2/2/2010 5:26 PM, Tony Vaccaro wrote: > It seems to me that it would be easy to put a circuit in the cars computer > that would override the dbw pedal if it sensed that the throttle was more > than 1/4 down (or something like that) and the brake was full on. > > At no time (unless you are doing burnouts) should the brake be full on the > the throttle depressed more than 1/4 or 1/8 of the way. > > Seems like a no brainer to me. > > > Tony Vaccaro > > LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) > www.lotusowners.com > 716-861-1412 > > This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data > or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from > disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information > contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If > you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately > notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all > attachments. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of shochschild at att.net > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:16 PM > To: Gerald Brazil > Cc: 'Team shop-talk' > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha > > I have heard that if you push in the button and hold it in, it turns > off. Maybe it was on NPR?? > > Gerald Brazil wrote: > >> If you just turn the key off you loose power steering and brakes..... >> >> I have a Nissan with a "Smart Key" and I got to thinking about what to >> do.....I decided to see how it worked. When I was driving I couldn't turn >> > it > >> off by pushing the "Stop/Start" button. >> > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 4829 (20100202) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 4829 (20100202) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 17:25:56 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002021625o7e54711fhb14c90121415c90e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:38 PM, David Hillman wrote: > On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Michael Porter wrote: > >> Umm, that little thing known as kinetic energy? If you're going sixty, the >> brakes can dissipate that energy reasonably quickly as heat--as long as >> there's no additional energy being added. However, if that engine is going >> full chat and producing near peak horsepower, adding to the kinetic energy >> of the vehicle as the brakes are trying to subtract from it, it's a losing >> proposition. Physics wins. >> >> e_sub_k=m * v-squared >> > > There seem to be a bunch of different scenarios getting confused here. > Some people, like Michael, are talking about a situation where the engine is > running wide-open. Maybe it's me, but that seems highly unlikely. I drive > fast, on the street, and I find myself using full-throttle almost exactly > never. The only times I've been there in my F150 are on race tracks ( recon > runs to check an autocross course, and running out to retrieve broken/stuck > racecars at Autobahn and various frozen lakes in Michigan ). Now granted, a > fullsize pickup isn't very sporty, but I drive my wife's 295hp Saab > sometimes, and there's no remotely legal situation where you can get much > beyond half-throttle. It was very difficult to reach WOT in any > marginally-powerful sporty car that I've owned. > Except, of course, that the toyotas involved have electronic throttles. There are, at least, *three* different re-callable problems with the cars. One is that the pedal can become physically stuck by an "improper floor mat". Second is that (maybe; i'm not convinced this is an actual problem.) the pedal can become stuck on its own. Third, and one that toyota is doing its damndest to pretend doesn't exist, is that their software is seriously fucked up, and causing the throttle to open even without a command to do so from the pedal. Toyota are being very scummy about the whole process. They're blaming their sub-contractor, and not acknowledging that they're the ones at fault. It seems outrageously unlikely to me that there a bunch of people > driving... > > . Certain 2009-2010 RAV4 > . Certain 2009-2010 Corolla > . 2009-2010 Matrix > . 2005-2010 Avalon > . Certain 2007-2010 Camry > . Certain 2010 Highlander > . 2007-2010 Tundra > . 2008-2010 Sequoia > > ...who are getting the pedal to the metal very often. > > So if you _aren't_ mashing the gas, I still think the vehicles brakes > will stop you. And in several of those vehicles, like a 132hp 2010 Corolla, > I'm still betting on the brakes even if you are. > > You've got a lot of faith in brakes. It's misplaced. You'll boil the fluid in thirty seconds. > Fwiw, the same Press Release from Toyota ( where I got the vehicle list ) > says; > > "In the event that a driver experiences an accelerator pedal that sticks in > a partial open throttle position or returns slowly to idle position, the > vehicle can be controlled with firm and steady application of the brakes. > The brakes should not be pumped repeatedly because it could deplete vacuum > assist, requiring stronger brake pedal pressure. The vehicle should be > driven to the nearest safe location, the engine shut off and a Toyota dealer > contacted for assistance." > > Except, of course, that's there's very good evidence that "the vehicle can be controlled with firm and astead application" is, at best, sometimes not true. > -- > David Hillman > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mdporter at dfn.com Tue Feb 2 17:42:29 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:42:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> Message-ID: <4B68C675.9030902@dfn.com> David Hillman wrote: > There seem to be a bunch of different scenarios getting confused > here. Some people, like Michael, are talking about a situation where > the engine is running wide-open. Maybe it's me, but that seems highly > unlikely. I drive fast, on the street, and I find myself using > full-throttle almost exactly never. The only times I've been there in > my F150 are on race tracks ( recon runs to check an autocross course, > and running out to retrieve broken/stuck racecars at Autobahn and > various frozen lakes in Michigan ). Now granted, a fullsize pickup > isn't very sporty, but I drive my wife's 295hp Saab sometimes, and > there's no remotely legal situation where you can get much beyond > half-throttle. It was very difficult to reach WOT in any > marginally-powerful sporty car that I've owned. > And yet, contrary to your own experience, people have found themselves with stuck throttles in Toyotas, careening down the highway at ~ 100 mph, the brakes burned out or useless. One does have to start from the known facts. As for the WOT scenario, you're presuming that all these throttle-sticking incidents occurred at steady-state input, where it's just as likely that someone at cruise in high gear could have increased throttle pressure to pass, or just to keep up with traffic and the throttle stuck at the more extended position. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From mark at bradakis.com Tue Feb 2 17:48:59 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:48:59 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> Message-ID: <4B68C7FB.6060602@bradakis.com> >> . Why doesn't this work? >> You're thinking old school, where the controls are mechanically or electricly directly attached to the devices they are supposed to control. Open the pod bay doors, HAL.. mjb. From marka at maracing.com Tue Feb 2 17:51:10 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:51:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Michael Porter wrote: >> Stomp the brakes, pull over, and don't release 'em until you get the >> motor shut off or out of gear. Why doesn't this work? > > Umm, that little thing known as kinetic energy? If you're going sixty, > the brakes can dissipate that energy reasonably quickly as heat--as long > as there's no additional energy being added. However, if that engine is > going full chat and producing near peak horsepower, adding to the > kinetic energy of the vehicle as the brakes are trying to subtract from > it, it's a losing proposition. Physics wins. > > e_sub_k=m * v-squared I have no idea if the equation is right or applies, but I can 100% say that the brakes will overpower the engine at WOT, since that's recently been tested in response to this issue: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept Of course, this is in cars with brakes in good working condition. Nobody (afaik) has tested what happens if you don't apply the brakes hard enough to overpower the engine and allow them to overheat. Mark From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Feb 2 18:00:25 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:00:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002021625o7e54711fhb14c90121415c90e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> <2400a5d41002021625o7e54711fhb14c90121415c90e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, David Scheidt wrote: > You've got a lot of faith in brakes. It's misplaced. You'll boil the > fluid in thirty seconds. I'm not a man of faith, so I tried it on my way home tonight. Reports of the demise of brakes have been greatly exaggerated. I was cruising at 55mph ( in my 5.4 F150, very similar in specification to the recalled Tundras and Sequoias ), when I accelerated hard to 65mph. Now, this wasn't WOT, but I'm still doubtful people are getting there. 99.99% of drivers would be scared stiff at WOT over 40mph even in a perfectly-functioning vehicle. I've done that to people who were in the passenger seat at driving schools, and that's a self-selected crowd near the high end. Anyway, I held the throttle partially open and when I hit 65, I nailed the brakes with my left foot. Not foot-to-the-floor-OMG-we're-gonna-die braking, but a good hard application. Everything in the truck not bolted-on flew forward, and it did 65-10mph with absolutely no problems other than a really unhappy transmission. Now, admittedly, I didn't sit on the shoulder with both feet in for a couple minutes to see if I could boil any fluid, but that's not really the point, is it? I had plenty of time to shift, if it would shift, or shut off the ignition. Hell, I probably could've set the e-brake and gotten out, or crept it up against an immovable object and let it burn itself out. Afterward, I kicked myself for doing this test. Anyone who can left-foot brake, or more precisely, anyone who taught themself to LFB via trial-and-error, should've been able to confirm it from memory. If you stomp the middle pedal with your normal clutch-foot action, you better hold on. Doesn't matter if you've lifted yet or not. I also recall my high school driver's ed teacher nearly breaking our necks with his passenger-side brake controls when a girl in my class almost crossed the center-line. And that was a 1980s Dodge Something-I-can't-recall. Brakes have a lot of horsepower. -- David Hillman From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Feb 2 18:11:54 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:11:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B68C675.9030902@dfn.com> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> <4B68C675.9030902@dfn.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Michael Porter wrote: > One does have to start from the known facts. You believe your "known facts", I'll believe mine. "Hit the Brakes Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D.s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry.s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet.that.s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry.s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet.noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car.s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event." http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept -- David Hillman From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Feb 2 19:28:37 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:28:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It would presumably work if you stopped QUIICKLY and COMPLETELY. But if slowed down to, say 30 MPH, and maintained that speed, you would have the engine in a low gear (assuming an automatic transmission) running at almost full power, with all of that power going into heating up the brakes. They would burn up real quickly. The fact that many cars are way over-powered doesn't make it any easier. Doug --- On Tue, 2/2/10, David Hillman wrote: > From: David Hillman > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha > To: "'Team shop-talk'" > Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 4:24 PM > On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Gerald Brazil > wrote: > > If you just turn the key off you loose power steering > and brakes..... > > Speaking of brakes... where are > they? No modern car has more engine horsepower than > brake, unless really poorly maintained. 60-0 in, say, > 125' takes what, less than 2 seconds? How many cars go > 0-60 in under 2? From chad at linuxeg.com Tue Feb 2 19:50:57 2010 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:50:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> Message-ID: <4B68E491.4060107@linuxeg.com> Mark Andy wrote: > > > Of course, this is in cars with brakes in good working condition. ... and the computer is not hosed up. I once heard said "A program with no bugs hasn't been thoroughly debugged". chad -- "The atom bomb was no 'great decision.' It was merely another powerful weapon in the arsenal of righteousness." Harry S. Truman From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 20:26:17 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:56:17 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC636@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: Tim writes... >hey definitely do need to fix the cars under recall, but the media has >hyped this one up a bit too much (although there seems to be indications >that Toyota was trying to cover things up, maybe they were just trying >to determine what was happening)... Like I stated earlier, I have no love loss for Toyota. I would love to see their sales fall. With that, I do COMMEND them on a broad reaching recall. With any automaker, I would rather see them recall 99% of the vehicles WITHOUT the problem then to have them leave 1% of them on the road. Just remember, we are all on the same roads. Trying to fix the safety issues, even if over reaching, is better than doing less. Then, with that said, I have no doubt that Toyota is trying to cover up a gross negligence issue(s) here. They are most likely doing this to protect themselves down the line when we find out the truth. (which could be that the technologies they put into production weren't properly tested.) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From mdporter at dfn.com Tue Feb 2 20:35:53 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:35:53 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B68EF19.3000406@dfn.com> Doug Braun wrote: > It would presumably work if you stopped QUIICKLY and COMPLETELY. But if > slowed down to, say 30 MPH, and maintained that speed, you would have the > engine in a low gear (assuming an automatic transmission) running at almost > full power, with all of that power going into heating up the brakes. They > would burn up real quickly. > > The fact that many cars are way over-powered > doesn't make it any easier. > > Well, there's a lot of apples and oranges comparisons being made. Arguments for this being entirely driver error are depending on personal experiences, or tests with other makes, or straight-line tests under controlled conditions. Who hasn't worried a bit about brake fade at speed on a long downhill, even with the throttle backed off? Roads aren't always straight and level, and, for that matter, braking systems aren't identical. Slight variations in how ABS might work may even be a factor in this. Lots of variables, but, still there's one constant--accidents _have_ happened because of a mechanical or drive-by-wire failure that caused power input when it shouldn't have happened.... Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 20:34:25 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:04:25 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: Clyde writes... >I wouldn't expect Mag to replace the flashlight because the battery failed. Actually, what I find with most companies, if you are polite and nice, they will go out of their way to "make things right." A big corporation isn't going to sweat giving away a few hundred (or even thousands) of Mag lights a year. The good will is well worth the price. In fact, I'm sure they build this into their marketing/operating plan. I think the warrantee reads that way to prevent them from HAVING to replace each one. But they are often too willing to keep a good customer happy. BTW, I have a close friend that works for GM's Customer Service program. He is pretty high up the food chain and he gets all the real problem issues that dealers can't solve. He tells me that often he knows right away whether or not they are going to give the customer what they want. If the conversation starts with something like... "I can't believe how bad GM sucks, I'm never buying another product..." He isn't interested in helping them. But the conversations that start with... "I've been a long time GM customer. I love GM products, but the problems I'm having with this issues right now MAY make me have to look at other brands." That guy is getting a new car! 8>) I found that the second line works for just about ever customer service rep I ever had to deal with. Try it next time! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 21:18:06 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:48:06 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B689471.7080702@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: Chad writes... >Machine and computer designers need to watch Star Trek "The Ultimate >Computer", >To quote Dr. McCoy "* *Fantastic machine, the M-5: no >off-switch." Not bad, but I would rather them watch War Games! "Just turn it off! Hell, I'd piss on the spark plugs if it would do any good!" (great line!) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 21:24:27 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:54:27 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David asks... > Stomp the brakes, pull over, and don't release 'em until you get the >motor shut off or out of gear. Why doesn't this work? David, that is what happens in the 1000s of cases where people aren't dying. If you notice, most of the fatalities left no time for that. (they guy that was in a parking lot and his car launched over the cliff.) Wow, I can't believe all this is turning into quite a cover up as Toyota sales were increasing. Actually now I hope someone can connect the dots and find an actually cover-up in Toyota. The 1000s of affected people deserve no less than that. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 21:41:03 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:11:03 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002021625o7e54711fhb14c90121415c90e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: David writes... > Toyota are being very scummy about the whole process. >They're blaming their sub-contractor, and not acknowledging that they're the >ones at fault. No surprise there. I have found that Toyota has been scummy in just about every portion of business. Just look at their commercials, you'll see they are targeting the people that know the LEAST amount about cars. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 22:04:50 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:34:50 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David writes... >Everything in the truck not >bolted-on flew forward, and it did 65-10mph with absolutely no problems other >than a really unhappy transmission. Thanks for the test and the amusing post on it. But you left out the one major factor of the problem. Your Ford is not part of the recall. That is the problem. It's these vehicles, for some reason(and it's becoming clearing that it seems Toyota is skipping the FBW override) that those cars are NOT stopping under this condition. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From marka at maracing.com Tue Feb 2 22:27:14 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:27:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Doug Braun wrote: > It would presumably work if you stopped QUIICKLY and COMPLETELY. But if > slowed down to, say 30 MPH, and maintained that speed, you would have > the engine in a low gear (assuming an automatic transmission) running at > almost full power, with all of that power going into heating up the > brakes. They would burn up real quickly. > > The fact that many cars are way over-powered > doesn't make it any easier. I'm sorry, but the only people I feel bad for if you've got a runaway throttle stuck open and you slow down to 30 mph _and maintain it_ vs. bringing the vehicle to a stop (against something if necessary) is the innocent people that get caught up in it as Darwin fixes the real problem. Mark From marka at maracing.com Tue Feb 2 22:29:09 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:29:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B68E491.4060107@linuxeg.com> References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> <4B68E491.4060107@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Chad on LEG wrote: >> Of course, this is in cars with brakes in good working condition. > ... and the computer is not hosed up. > I once heard said "A program with no bugs hasn't been thoroughly debugged". Huh? There are two ways I read this... One is that you don't know how brakes work. Or two that you know how brakes work a whole heck of a lot better than me. :-) Explain how a computer bug can cause a problem here? It can't do it on the engine / throttle side... By definition that's already at WOT. Mark From marka at maracing.com Tue Feb 2 22:32:08 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:32:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote: > With that, I do COMMEND them on a broad reaching recall. With any > automaker, I would rather see them recall 99% of the vehicles WITHOUT > the problem then to have them leave 1% of them on the road. They didn't do it because it was the right thing, they did it because they were forced to, is what I've read. http://freep.com/article/20100202/BUSINESS01/100202049/1320/Official-U.S.-had-to-force-Toyota-into-recall (just the first one I picked up with google) Mark From marka at maracing.com Tue Feb 2 22:37:04 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:37:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B68EF19.3000406@dfn.com> References: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B68EF19.3000406@dfn.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Michael Porter wrote: > Lots of variables, but, still there's one constant--accidents _have_ > happened because of a mechanical or drive-by-wire failure that caused > power input when it shouldn't have happened.... The other constant is inappropriate response by the drivers in question. I'm not saying Toyota isn't screwing the pooch here... I think they are. But even with brakes that are completely disfunctional, a driver has options before reaching 100mph or whatever it was in the case of the car the cop was driving. And I've not seen anything yet that shows definitively that the brakes weren't functional. Btw, another issue is the "push button control" stuff for ignition power. If there's anything thats coming out of this whole deal, its that changing a user interface that's very well known, accepted, and understood, should be done with a little caution. Mark From racertod at racertodd.com Tue Feb 2 22:33:58 2010 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:33:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100202212246.00bd0d98@mail.blarg.net> Tony wrote: >It seems to me that it would be easy to put a circuit in the cars computer >that would override the dbw pedal if it sensed that the throttle was more >than 1/4 down (or something like that) and the brake was full on. My drive-by-wire-throttle-equipped '01 Golf TDI has this feature. With the brakes applied, the rpms will be limited to 1200rpm no matter now much the throttle is pressed. The brakes don't have to be pressed hard, once the brake switch lights the brake lights the throttle override activates. You can get a quick throttle blip in a heel and toe downshift, though. I read that all German cars have this feature. Audi was one of the first German makes with DBW, they had some throttle sticking type of problems and instituted the throttle override feature. Other German marquee followed suit. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 230,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From mdporter at dfn.com Tue Feb 2 23:01:15 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:01:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B69112B.4080906@dfn.com> eric at megageek.com wrote: > No surprise there. I have found that Toyota has been scummy in just about > every portion of business. Just look at their commercials, you'll see > they are targeting the people that know the LEAST amount about cars. > > But, that's true of most auto advertising these days. Whole lotta people driving around in massive SUVs because of commercials, rather than what they know about them.... But, I suspect there have been changes in Toyota management in the nearly three decades since I worked in a Toyota dealership (the dealership itself was pit of vipers, but the parent company was fairly straight-up then). Here's an example of the way it used to be: I happened to get an `83 Supra (about fifteen months after they were introduced in this country) under warranty with what I could tell, the moment I opened the hood, was a broken valve spring. I dutifully pulled the spring and went to parts to get another. None to be found. So, we called the national parts center at Long Beach to send us one by air. None there, either. So, Long Beach called Toyota in Japan and said, "send us one." About an hour later, the shop mamager tells me to package up the parts in a particular way for shipment to Japan. What's up?, I ask. He says, dunno, but the engineers there want to look at the pieces. Turned out that there were no parts in the system because Toyota only stocked parts that had a repair history, and they'd never broken a valve spring on the engine in the US since introduction of that engine, and hadn't broken one in the four years that the engine had been in use in Japan before being introduced here (that was standard practice then, to keep new models out of the US until all the major bugs were found). That's why the engineers were going berserker over a failure and wanted the part right away and handled in a particular way. There were other indications that Toyota was on top of things. When the stockers at the factory accidentally put 22R gas engine rods in the diesel equivalent, they were on it in less than 800 serial numbers, and we got every one of them in our sales district into the shop before a wholesale failure. Only one had even bent a rod. There are numerous other examples of Toyota giving quality top priority while I was in that shop. And, this was at a time when our counterparts at the Cadillac-Olds-Buick-GMC dealer across the street were averaging twelve hours flat-rate a week because they either couldn't get parts, or couldn't get enough info from the factory to fix the problems they encountered, and their back lot was crammed with cars waiting for repairs. So, I suspect things have changed. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Feb 2 23:16:32 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:16:32 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46.17.11092.0C4196B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > Explain how a computer bug can cause a problem here? Well, let's say for example it has decided that one or more of the wheels are slipping. The way anti-lock brakes work is to reduce braking effort on the wheels that are slipping ... and I believe all of the affected models are equipped with 4-wheel ABS. Randall From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 23:11:39 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:41:39 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B69112B.4080906@dfn.com> Message-ID: Michael writes... >There were other indications that Toyota was on top of things. You know, it seems that most companies go through this life cycle. Look at Dell computers, once known for being a cheaper alternative with great tech support, then they changed their model to be an overpriced piece of crap and their tech support is on a mission to outlast you on hold (and they always win.) Microsoft was another one. They got big in the 90's and started acting like the bully in the playground. Now they are making crap software. What about Volvo? (to keep this shop related.) They USED to be the safest cars, now they are pretty low in safety ratings, but they still promote that aspect. Harley Davidson had a core of diehard supports that carried them through the AMF years. Once they got big, they forgot about those supporters and started sticking the HD name on ever toilet seat and ceiling fan they could find. They alienated their core (to which I was one) to appeal to the masses. I used to practically live in a HD dealerships talking with other riders. Now, I can't remember the last time I set foot in one. I see this happening to Google as well. It seems they get too big for their britches and they forget what made them great. All these companies "dine out" on a reputation that they no longer care about. Of course, Autox.team.net will never let this happen. These guys know what they are doing and they will never forget their core customers no matter how big they get! 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Feb 2 23:20:57 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:20:57 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32.A9.11092.9C5196B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > I'm sorry, but the only people I feel bad for if you've got a runaway > throttle stuck open Wow. From eric at megageek.com Tue Feb 2 23:16:25 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:46:25 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark corrects me... >They didn't do it because it was the right thing, they did it because they >were forced to, is what I've read. > http://freep.com/article/20100202/BUSINESS01/100202049/1320/Official-U.S.-had-to-force-Toyota-into-recall >(just the first one I picked up with google) You see, that is what I get for giving the bad guys the benefit of the doubt. No more. I Hate Toyota!!! There, it's official again! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From hillman at planet-torque.com Tue Feb 2 23:32:45 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 01:32:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote: > David, that is what happens in the 1000s of cases where people aren't > dying. If you notice, most of the fatalities left no time for that. (they > guy that was in a parking lot and his car launched over the cliff.) This'll be my last post on the topic, I think, but does anyone have any real good information about these other crashes? I can't find much, if anything. Just anecdotal quotes, such as from a woman who claims her Prius "suddenly" accelerated to 90mph. So apparently, Toyota accidentally installed a jet engine in her Prius. I'm sorry, I just don't consider that a credible story. And in the Officer Saylor case, I find it sad, but not surprising to note that the previous driver of the same loaner had no problem stopping the car, and even continued to drive it. "Bernard pressed long and hard on the brakes and was able to pull over and slow down. He put the car into neutral, but the engine continued to race at full speed. After several failed attempts at turning off the engine, he realized the floor mat had jammed the gas pedal. He slid his foot under the accelerator, dislodged it and had no further problems, the report says." http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/04/report-loaner-car-in-fatal-crash-had-earlier/ Or this comical story... "* Nancy Bernstein, a vice president for a Long Beach community garden and former science teacher, said she was taken on an 8-mile high-speed ride by her 2007 Prius while she was following her husband in a group bicycle tour in Wisconsin. She said her Prius accelerated from 45 mph to 75 mph on a winding, two-lane highway crowded with 100 cyclists. "I was sure I was going to kill someone on a bicycle or myself," she recalled. "I stood on the brakes with both feet. All of a sudden, I see fire. I thought, sure, my brakes are on fire. I thought about maybe trying to sideswipe a tree to slow down." Eventually she was able to stop at the bottom of a hill, using her brakes and emergency brake. A local resident rushed out with a fire extinguisher." So the brakes didn't work for 8 miles... but then they did, at the bottom of a hill. RIIIGHT. And it was a high-speed ride in which she didn't pass a group of bicyclists? I've owned a bunch of Toyotas, but the two I have now are 20+ year-old racecar projects. I wouldn't touch any of their more recent over-priced crap, though. Maybe I have an unconscious bias, but I'm not seeing much credible evidence to support anything other than typically idiotic driving. I haven't seen anyone propose a reasonable mechanism, other than terminally awful maintenance, by which the brakes on these model cars can be over-powered by these engines. I'm more than willing to believe that people are driving around with no brake fluid and backing plates where pads used to be... but that's a totally separate deal from a throttle issue, and we'd see them going off cliffs at slower speeds anyway. drive wreckless, -- David Hillman From mark at bradakis.com Wed Feb 3 00:22:25 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 00:22:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B692431.5020205@bradakis.com> > Actually, what I find with most companies, if you are polite and nice, > they will go out of their way to "make things right." Many years ago my first wife's Toyota needed a new battery. The brakes were fine ;-) We were reading the paper and the Sears ad listed some batteries on sale, the ending date was sunday the 10th. We decided we'd go down there on sunday and get a battery on sale. We get to the store and the fellow says that it was a misprint, the 10th was saturday, the sale was over, too bad chumps. We made a bit of a fuss, the ad said the sale ended sunday. The manager was called in and confirmed we had missed the sale. Monday we mailed off a letter to Sears corporate headquarters, a copy of the erroneous ad included. The letter was short, to the point and not belligerent. Friday we got a phone call from that manager asking us if we'd like to come down and purchase a battery at the advertised sale price. I'm still amazed that a corporate entity like Sears acted so quickly to make things right. I won't discuss the current level of quality in Craftsman tools. mjb. From mark at bradakis.com Wed Feb 3 00:39:29 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 00:39:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B692831.2090302@bradakis.com> > Of course, Autox.team.net will never let this happen. These guys know > what they are doing and they will never forget their core customers no > matter how big they get! 8>) > > Thank you for your comments. We are committed to great service and insure nothing can go wrong. nothing can go wrong. nothing can go wrong. nothing can go wrong. nothing can go wrong. no thing can grow long. From jem at milleredp.com Wed Feb 3 00:49:23 2010 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:49:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B69112B.4080906@dfn.com> References: <4B69112B.4080906@dfn.com> Message-ID: <4B692A83.5040606@milleredp.com> > There were other indications that Toyota was on top of things. I've said for a long time (really) that: a) Japanese and particularly Toyota vehicle quality (overall production, engineering, design, etc) peaked around 1990; the decontenting got pretty aggressive by the middle of the decade. b) Even at that, the only vehicle I'd ever buy in its first year of production would be a Japanese-built Toyota. The last Japanese car we owned was a '92 Infiniti Q45 (the best of cars and the worst of cars) and prior to that an '88 Celica (at 120K mi something - a window switch - finally broke.) Recent Japanese-brand product trends toward ergonomically intolerable (nipple-high Toyota beltlines), godawful ugly (can anyone look at a current Mazda3 without a little bile brewing up in the throat?) or both though I have to admit the last-gen Mitsu Evo (not the current oversized, pagoda-shaped thing) is a remarkably attractive and well-tailored shape - if you ditch all the spoilers and vortex generators and other crap. Excuse me, I have to go take my bitchy-pill now. John. From mdporter at dfn.com Wed Feb 3 01:12:02 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:12:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove corroded batteries from an Aluminum case In-Reply-To: <4B692431.5020205@bradakis.com> References: <4B692431.5020205@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <4B692FD2.7010606@dfn.com> Mark J Bradakis wrote: > > I'm still amazed that a corporate entity like Sears acted so quickly > to make > things right. I worked for Sears in the mid-`60s, and about all they were concerned about then was getting people to use credit for purchases, because it padded the bottom line nicely. Christmas `66 was a horror show on steroids. They'd just come out with a combination 8mm/Super 8 projector that, at least in our store, had about a 70% failure rate. People were coming back for replacements in droves, and there were none left in stock. Many a time I was _ordered_, _under protest_, to take the box upstairs, strip off the old tape and retape it and bring the box with the busted projector back down to give the customer as a "replacement." Pretty much put me off of retail forever, that did. > > > I won't discuss the current level of quality in Craftsman tools. > > Wouldn't know... haven't bought any since the local store refused to replace one that had lifetime warranty. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From eric at megageek.com Wed Feb 3 02:41:03 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:11:03 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B692A83.5040606@milleredp.com> Message-ID: John states... >The last Japanese car we owned was a '92 Infiniti Q45 (the best of cars >and the worst of cars) and prior to that an '88 Celica (at 120K mi >something - a window switch - finally broke.) And so the pissing match as begun! 8>) Seriously, I don't consider a passenger car going 120,k miles that great. I have a 2001 Ford Explorer. It has over 158,k miles on it. I'm still waiting for the first repair. In that time, its... been in a hail storm. rear ended once. Hit by a drunk driver (interestingly, it was hit just after it was rear ended (about a month.) I hadn't fixed the bumper yet and the drunk driver hit me in the rear quarter panel.) Has a snow plow on front of it. Tows trailers, boats, cars, etc (and I'm not good enough at *math* to make sure I'm always under it's tow capacity.) Been in multiple "disaster" scenarios for our preparedness drills. I had it decked out as a police truck and it did a bit of "rough" duty. Been off road LOTS of times Is a primary driver Been in lots of snow storms Driven from NJ to AZ down the Baja Peninsula and back. Sat for over a year while I was in Iraq. Is currently sitting now. The only things I've worked on was regular wear items. Other than that, this truck has been great! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From jamesf at groupwbench.org Wed Feb 3 05:51:25 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:51:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? Message-ID: My dad was a diesel mechanic and now I have quite a few tools I can't identify. One is this Mac CF-48 that looks like the business end was replaced with different jaws at some point, judging by the weld quality. http://www.groupwbench.org/Tools/tool_4.JPG Anyone recognize it? We've been having a fun game of "name that tool" on another this but this one has us stumped. From eric at megageek.com Wed Feb 3 06:39:26 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:09:26 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a spring compressor of sort. What does the other side of the fingers look like? Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Jim Franklin Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 02/03/2010 17:58 To Shop-Talk List cc Subject [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? My dad was a diesel mechanic and now I have quite a few tools I can't identify. One is this Mac CF-48 that looks like the business end was replaced with different jaws at some point, judging by the weld quality. http://www.groupwbench.org/Tools/tool_4.JPG Anyone recognize it? We've been having a fun game of "name that tool" on another this but this one has us stumped. From jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 3 07:02:23 2010 From: jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net (John) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:02:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim, That appears to be a valve spring compression tool that has had the pieces added to make it a sort of "vice-grip". I have a tool (several different ones, in fact) like yours - without the extra parts added. :-) John -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 7:51 AM To: Shop-Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? My dad was a diesel mechanic and now I have quite a few tools I can't identify. One is this Mac CF-48 that looks like the business end was replaced with different jaws at some point, judging by the weld quality. http://www.groupwbench.org/Tools/tool_4.JPG Anyone recognize it? We've been having a fun game of "name that tool" on another this but this one has us stumped. Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Wed Feb 3 07:16:27 2010 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:16:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> <2400a5d41002021625o7e54711fhb14c90121415c90e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E1446D9A53BC1@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com> Just as a data point I can think of several cases where WOT is used. I have a diesel 1 ton truck and going up a hill I have been known to use WOT especially when I have "too much stuff"(tm) in the back or am towing. I also ride a motorcycle and regularly hit the throttle stop (briefly) when I change lanes on the freeway from the left lane (doing 25) to the carpool lane doing 60+. But I ride a "slow" old man motorcycle (R1200 GSa)... Stuart. From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Feb 3 07:24:49 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:24:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <256126.97882.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Valve spring compressor! But it looks like the tool was re-purposed to something completely different... Doug --- On Wed, 2/3/10, Jim Franklin wrote: > From: Jim Franklin > Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? > To: "Shop-Talk List" > Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 7:51 AM > My dad was a diesel mechanic and now > I have quite a few tools I can't > identify. One is this Mac CF-48 that looks like the > business end was replaced > with different jaws at some point, judging by the weld > quality. > > http://www.groupwbench.org/Tools/tool_4.JPG > > Anyone recognize it? We've been having a fun game of "name > that tool" on > another this but this one has us stumped. From whesr at iglou.com Wed Feb 3 07:47:16 2010 From: whesr at iglou.com (Bill Engle Sr) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:47:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001e01caa4df$c7683cc0$1600a8c0@MDBC.local> That is a valve spring (intake/exhaust) removal tool with pieces of metal welded on to do something else. Open the jaws up install in spring- close the jaws and you can remove the valve keepers and take out the spring and replace. Bill From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 7:51 AM To: Shop-Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? My dad was a diesel mechanic and now I have quite a few tools I can't identify. One is this Mac CF-48 that looks like the business end was replaced with different jaws at some point, judging by the weld quality. http://www.groupwbench.org/Tools/tool_4.JPG Anyone recognize it? We've been having a fun game of "name that tool" on another this but this one has us stumped. Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as whesr at iglou.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Wed Feb 3 08:07:17 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:07:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It looks like a variation on a Kant-Twist clamp. The wide jaws lead me to believe it was probably for clamping sheet metal or plate together for welding.....doubt if it is a special tool for diesel work. From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Wed Feb 3 08:11:12 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:11:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Check signals! I took a closer look at it.....It looks like it WAS a valve spring compressor that had flat plate welded to it to make it a clamp for sheet metal. From drew at DasRogges.com Wed Feb 3 08:44:09 2010 From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 07:44:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <1E5D3A77B6C04BD28AA9248B79504D7D@Digilink1> <4B68A547.4030106@dfn.com> <2400a5d41002021625o7e54711fhb14c90121415c90e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6999C9.2010800@DasRogges.com> This reminds me of when my daughter was learning to drive. I wanted to have her experience just how well brakes could work (sans WOT, don't want to get into that) to bring a car to a stop. I had her drive out to this long straight stretch of country road, get up to about 50 MPH and apply the brakes with a quick steadily increasing pressure, much like threshold braking. There was this loud thump from the back seat and when I looked back there was poor Jazz the Airedale laying on the floor with this WTF look on his face. We had forgotten that he had come along for the ride. Drew David Hillman wrote: [snip] > better hold on. Doesn't matter if you've lifted yet or not. I also > recall my high school driver's ed teacher nearly breaking our necks with > his passenger-side brake controls when a girl in my class almost crossed > the center-line. And that was a 1980s Dodge Something-I-can't-recall. From jem at milleredp.com Wed Feb 3 09:19:16 2010 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:19:16 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B69A204.40200@milleredp.com> > I have a 2001 Ford Explorer. It has over 158,k miles on it. I'm still > waiting for the first repair. In that time, its.. Let's see here...I've bought exactly one Ford product new, a '91 Taurus SHO. It had any number of problems in its first 50K miles, but the worst issue was the absolute impossibility of finding a Ford dealer around here who could do competent warranty repairs, to the point that Ford Motor Company was laid under a spousal interdict for the following decade or so. I have no doubt Ford probably did a better job on vehicles they built 400K a year of, than ones they did 12K/yr, though really only the clutch release bearing was something unique to the SHO. The rest were things like sloppy seat tracks, radio volume control failure, cracked HVAC buttons, etc. on parts common to lots of Fords of the era. And, of course, the paint. It was unforgiveable for one dealer to give me back the car having failed to fix what felt like a loose steering intermediate-shaft pinch-bolt telling me 'Oh, they're all like that' (it was what I thought it was, I did that one myself) and for the next dealer to need three trips and a visit from the zone rep to get approval to replace a leaky AC compressor. Admittedly, I never encountered a Ford dealership service department that was a bunch of outright crooks, like the service shop of a now long-gone multi-brand dealership where we bought our '92 Saab. That car had an entertaining set of electrical glitches but was otherwise pretty solid. John. From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 09:26:26 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:26:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *I seem to remember shops using this valve spring compressor tool on flathead engines like the ol' Ford V8 and N series Ford tractors. It was likely pretty specific to the engine due to valve spring diameter and limited space. * ** *I found this image of the Owatona version:* ** http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/Photos/tools/otc_a100_valve_spring_lifter_pat_f_cropped_inset.jpg From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Feb 3 09:40:21 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:40:21 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: <585F16352E494003A95C4B09066D37DF@DESKTOP> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <585F16352E494003A95C4B09066D37DF@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC89B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Whoops! Yesterday I said that I thought that the Toyota recall wasn't that big of a deal as it only affected a few cars out of hundreds of thousands. I was wrong. This morning I read that that have been at least 2,000 un-intended accelerations, over 800 wrecks, and at least 19 killed. That's a heck of a lot more serious. There is also some indication from Toyota that it may be software problems with the ECU (that they been denying) and not just a mechanical problem with the electronic pedal. Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Feb 3 09:43:21 2010 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:43:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B6999C9.2010800@DasRogges.com> Message-ID: <1124508496.2371041265215401426.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> This guy knows the auto biz (ex-GM Marketing): http://www.autoextremist.com/ and http://www.autoextremist.com/on-the-table1/ bs -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA From jblair1948 at cox.net Wed Feb 3 10:03:11 2010 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:03:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B68EF19.3000406@dfn.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100203120108.046d0cc8@cox.net> At 12:37 AM 2/3/2010, Mark Andy wrote: >Btw, another issue is the "push button control" stuff for ignition power. If there's >anything thats coming out of this whole deal, its that changing a user interface that's >very well known, accepted, and understood, should be done with a little caution. > Well the new - post '74ish cars with ignition keys aren't a whole hell-of-a lot better. Try going around a curve and shutting off the key. I don't like the idea that the steering column locks in the turned position. Or visa versa. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jamesf at groupwbench.org Wed Feb 3 10:15:21 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:15:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Can someone identify this tool? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E634772-AEA6-4E01-A391-7E3537AB2C08@groupwbench.org> On Feb 3, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > My dad was a diesel mechanic and now I have quite a few tools I can't > identify. One is this Mac CF-48 Thanks for all the responses! I knew I could count on youse. No idea why there'd be the vice grip ends... (I had a few people going on the other list that my dad was a hardass with a heart of gold and would go around the shop after hours, using this tool to painstakingly free mice from traps.) From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Feb 3 11:16:11 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:16:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <46.17.11092.0C4196B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <46.17.11092.0C4196B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Randall wrote: > Well, let's say for example it has decided that one or more of the wheels > are slipping. The way anti-lock brakes work is to reduce braking effort on > the wheels that are slipping ... and I believe all of the affected models > are equipped with 4-wheel ABS. Damn, sucked back in again. I haven't driven any of these recalled Toyotas, well, not hard enough to use ABS, anyway... so does Toyota have a new, seamless-in-operation, ABS system? If not, shouldn't we have reports from drivers, who claim to be standing on the brakes during these events, that felt the ABS-activation pedal feedback? When you stand on ABS brakes, it's hard not to notice. Can anyone find a report of an alleged UA crash where the driver activated ABS? There should be hundreds. -- David Hillman From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Feb 3 11:34:14 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:34:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100203120108.046d0cc8@cox.net> References: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B68EF19.3000406@dfn.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100203120108.046d0cc8@cox.net> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC950@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> John wrote: > Well the new - post '74ish cars with ignition keys aren't a > whole hell-of-a lot better. Try going around a curve and > shutting off the key. I don't like the idea that the > steering column locks in the turned position. Or visa versa. Again, EVER?YONE of those cars has an "OFF" position between "ON" and "LOCKED" - it's required by federal regulations. The key positions are "LOCKED", "OFF", "RUN", "START". It's just that most people are used to automatically, turning the key form "ON" through to "LOCKED" in one motion. Like I've also said, my Ranger even has a lever that has to be pushed to move it from "OFF" to "LOCKED", but even that becomes an automatic reflex. If you ever get a stuck throttle - without panicking - gently turn the key on click and one click only - turn off you automatic reflex to go to "LOCKED". Try it on the road sometime. You can even try it the next time you turn off your car in the driveway (although the engine will quit turning over because the car isn't moving so you will have no power steering). As a matter of fact, everyone should make it a habit of turning off the engine as a two stop process. As actually do it all the time, but simply because I want to leave the radio on for a moment to finish listening to the song that's playing and on all my cars, the "ON" position leaves the radio playing - the old "Accessory position"). Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 11:35:03 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:35:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC89B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <585F16352E494003A95C4B09066D37DF@DESKTOP> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC89B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002031035k79939ad7vb95ade96f903001d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote: > Whoops! > > Yesterday I said that I thought that the Toyota recall wasn't that big > of a deal as it only affected a few cars out of hundreds of thousands. > > I was wrong. > > This morning I read that that have been at least 2,000 un-intended > accelerations, over 800 wrecks, and at least 19 killed. > > That's a heck of a lot more serious. > > There is also some indication from Toyota that it may be software > problems with the ECU (that they been denying) and not just a mechanical > problem with the electronic pedal. > > There are also wide spread reports of electronic problems with the brakes and cruise controls of cars not fitted with the allegedly-defective pedals (mostly the prius, but also other models.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Feb 3 11:43:40 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:43:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100203120108.046d0cc8@cox.net> References: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B68EF19.3000406@dfn.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100203120108.046d0cc8@cox.net> Message-ID: <113F41DCFE87412191C57FE4D57F5F52@jdnet.deere.com> > Well the new - post '74ish cars with ignition keys aren't a > whole hell-of-a lot better. > Try going around a curve and shutting off the key. I don't > like the idea that the steering column locks in the turned > position. Or visa versa. The mechanism varies, but most cars have an interlock that hopefully prevents locking the column accidentally. On the wife's older Toyota, for example, you can turn the key to the 'off' position without doing anything else, but in order to lock the column (and remove the key), you have to press and hold a lever. On my 95 Buick, you can't lock the column unless the gear selector is in 'Park' (but you can kill the engine by turning the key). Hmm, I wonder, do newer cars also let the ECU control power to the ignition? I'll bet they do, at least to some extent. And it definitely controls the injectors. Both are probably required for emissions reasons, to avoid pumping unburned fuel out the exhaust every time the engine is shut off. -- Randall From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Feb 3 11:53:02 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:53:02 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <4B69A204.40200@milleredp.com> References: <4B69A204.40200@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC974@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> John wrote: > > dealer around here who could do competent warranty repairs, > > Admittedly, I never encountered a Ford dealership service > department that was a bunch of outright crooks, like the service shop of a now long-gone multi-brand dealership where we bought our '92 Saab. Okay, another long story. I once had a dealer take my Jeep back for 66 repairs during the first year (but none of them were safety related so it did qualify under the lemon laws of that state (they vary by state). But I did put that dealer out of business. My Jeep finally had a problem with the transfer case - it wouldn't go into four wheel drive. They had the car for about a week, and then returned it after explaining to me that they had to rebuild the transfer case and charging Jeep for the warranty repairs. However me being the trusting person that I was, crawled under to check their work. That's when I called the state consumer complaint division and the factory rep and arranged for them to meet me at the dealer a few days later (the state consumer complaint rep told us that their complaint file against that dealer (the only one within a couple hundred miles in that state) had a file thicker than the rest of the complaints for the entire rest of the state (Wyoming). When we all gathered at the dealer, I had them put it up on a lift. Earlier, my drive shaft had a lot of surface rust, so I wire brushed of the rust, and painted the bare metal on the drive shaft with black paint. The over spray was all over the bolts on the transfer case (that the dealer had supposedly rebuilt), and none of the bolts had been touched. To demonstrate, I took a sick point socket and turned one of the bolts, a quarter turn, and demonstrated that the pint over-sprat all flaked off the head of the turned bolt. The Dealer (and by that I mean the owner and manager) lowered the Jeep off the rack, told me to get the #$%& out and never come back. The dealer rep told me that they would take care of things. The dealership was out of the Jeep business within two weeks, and a new Jeep dealership had opened up (and one of the GM dealerships) in town with a month. I believe that the original Jeep dealer had lost their other franchises within a couple of years after that - but I'm not sure, as I had moved away by then. I did make the state consumer rep happy as I did catch them in fraud - although it was against Jeep and not a consumer. Sometimes the little guy can win. Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Feb 3 12:49:32 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:49:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002031035k79939ad7vb95ade96f903001d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <585F16352E494003A95C4B09066D37DF@DESKTOP> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC89B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <2400a5d41002031035k79939ad7vb95ade96f903001d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, David Scheidt wrote: > There are also wide spread reports of electronic problems with the brakes > and cruise controls of cars not fitted with the allegedly-defective pedals > (mostly the prius, but also other models.) I'm not sure I'd call them 'wide-spread'. They appear to have about 100 cases of people experiencing the same "ice-mode" issue that Subarus have been plagued with for a decade or so. Hard application of brakes on bumpy roads confuses the ABS computer into thinking the wheels are locking on ice, and it cuts braking force. http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/autos/prius_complaints/index.htm?hpt=T1 -- David Hillman From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Feb 3 13:05:20 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:05:20 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <46.17.11092.0C4196B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: > If not, shouldn't we have reports from drivers, who claim > to be standing on the brakes during these events, that felt > the ABS-activation pedal feedback? Note that I do not subscribe to the ABS-failure theory, it was just an answer to your question as to how computer problems could keep the brakes from working. But the "pedal feedback" you are talking about is caused because the _computer_ is rapidly modulating the brakes. If it had failed, and was simply disabling them completely, there would be no pedal feedback. And IMO most drivers aren't familiar enough with ABS to know the difference anyway. We have plenty of reports of "I put on the brakes as hard as I could, and they did not stop the car". BTW, I don't have the link handy, but there was some gov't agency that decided it could take as much as 225 pounds of force (or something like that, maybe I got the exact number wrong) on the brake pedal, to stop a Lexus ES under WOT conditions. I've not tried to measure it myself, but I can vouch that on my 95 Buick wagon, it does take a whole BUNCH to stop quickly without the boost, even with the engine not fighting the brakes; plus the pedal goes considerably lower than normal. After the experiment, I adjusted my seat position closer to the pedals, so that in an emergency, I could use my leg muscles and hips against the seat to stomp the brakes, instead of having to use my toes and/or back muscles. Even so, I could not lock the wheels. And I'm a fairly big guy, I seriously doubt that my featherweight wife would be able to muster what it takes. For her, it would be like picking up a 130 pound box, while standing on her toes. -- Randall From pethier at comcast.net Wed Feb 3 13:14:46 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:14:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC950@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <159641291.2649641265228086093.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ----- "Tim Mullen (IS)" wrote: > matter of fact, everyone should make it a habit of turning off the > engine as a two stop process. [I] actually do it all the time, but > simply because I want to leave the radio on for a moment to finish > listening to the song that's playing and on all my cars, the "ON" > position leaves the radio playing - the old "Accessory position"). My newer GM cars keep the radio and the power windows live until I open the door, even though I have already removed the key from the ignition lock. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 14:38:48 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: References: <4B662902.6030802@blacksburg.net> <4B678A4E.6080801@blacksburg.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC63D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <585F16352E494003A95C4B09066D37DF@DESKTOP> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC89B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <2400a5d41002031035k79939ad7vb95ade96f903001d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002031338t7c63e2c4lf50f88ad9a1d10a8@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 2:49 PM, David Hillman wrote: > On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, David Scheidt wrote: > >> There are also wide spread reports of electronic problems with the brakes >> and cruise controls of cars not fitted with the allegedly-defective pedals >> (mostly the prius, but also other models.) >> > > I'm not sure I'd call them 'wide-spread'. They appear to have about 100 > cases of people experiencing the same "ice-mode" issue that Subarus have > been plagued with for a decade or so. Hard application of brakes on bumpy > roads confuses the ABS computer into thinking the wheels are locking on ice, > and it cuts braking force. > > Which doesn't explain the complaints about the cruise control accelerating the car unexpectedly. > http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/autos/prius_complaints/index.htm?hpt=T1 > > -- > David Hillman > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From chad at linuxeg.com Wed Feb 3 15:10:30 2010 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:10:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: References: <46.17.11092.0C4196B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B69F456.1090301@linuxeg.com> My Corvette (1993) stops a lot faster with the ABS in failure mode; additionally, it accelerated much faster with the ASR disabled! (ask me hot the dealer treated me when the car was under warranty.) chad -- "National defense is one of the cardinal duties of a statesman." -- John Adams From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Wed Feb 3 18:28:40 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:28:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... Message-ID: After reading the early posts on this popular topic I began to wonder what would happen on my car (09 Nissan Murano) which has one of the magic key "Start/Stop" buttons. I got on a country road and punched the start/stop button while driving. Nothing happened. I shifted into neutral and tried again..same result .the car kept running. In later postings I read that if you held the button down for 3 seconds it would turn off. Someone suggested that if you left the car in gear after you turned the engine off that the transmission would turn the engine over enough to keep the power steering and brakes working. Another post suggested that some manufacturers (I recall Nissan and BMW) had a "fail safe" condition in their ECU that would not allow the car to be accelerated if there was pressure on the brake pedal. So, today I decided to test these out ( I sure hope this doesn't start another "Myth Buster" thread!) Driving on that same country road at about 35 I pushed and held down the start/stop button for 3 seconds. The engine stopped and all of my instruments turned off. I was able to steer the vehicle with what seemed to be about the same effort. Also I had no trouble stopping. Unfortunately, I couldn't verify that the engine was being turned by the transmission since my tach was turned off. In any event, I had no problems controlling the car. Next I tested the fail safe system. Driving about 35 I put my left foot on the brake and pressed as evenly as I could while also pushing on the accelerator pedal. For someone not accustomed to left foot braking, this is not as easy as it sounds. I definitely was slowing down even though I was pressing on the gas.I must say, I didn't "firewall" it but I think I was pressing hard enough to give it a fair test. So, I guess I am not too concerning about my car but I am going to keep my eye on all of those Toyotas out there... One other thing..if your car is accelerating madly, 3 seconds might seem like an eternity. From mark at bradakis.com Wed Feb 3 19:54:41 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:54:41 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] What cars can and can't do Message-ID: <4B6A36F1.3040108@bradakis.com> This is vaguely related to the Toyota discussion. If I had any kids, they would not be allowed out on the street until they had maybe half a dozen, preferably more, autocross events. Safe drivers know what their cars can and can not do, they don't just close their eyes, slam on the brakes and scream. mjb. From tvacc at lotusowners.com Wed Feb 3 20:52:38 2010 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:52:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] What cars can and can't do In-Reply-To: <238C00AF64264FECAD14DADAF7F91D30@amicroinc.local> References: <238C00AF64264FECAD14DADAF7F91D30@amicroinc.local> Message-ID: <2A27F1846CCB44A080DA409844A8A24B@amicroinc.local> As someone who has raised two boys with sports cars around all the time and they are now in their 20's with no accidents and only one speeding ticket each and those tickets, (while justified as they were speeding) there were extenuating circumstances. One we were late for computer job and I told him to speed...and the other was a 37 in a 15mph running zone at 2 in the morning. Completely dark out, no runners, and cop was sitting there with the lights off just waiting for young kids to come out of school parties. Looking more for drinkers than speeders, but caught is caught. The best things I did were the following: The attended the Drivers Edge Event when it was held near here. www.driversedge.com I told them no matter if they had one drink or 10, they call me and I come and get them no matter where they are and no matter what time. No questions. And I also let me drive my Lotus Elise anytime they want. And when I had my M100's, they could drive those. I have always felt that if you give young adults adult responsibilities they will act like adults. They also drove with me on many Lotus LOONY breakfast runs...driving right behind me. Learn by following. Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark J Bradakis Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:40 PM To: 'Shop Talk' Subject: [Shop-talk] What cars can and can't do This is vaguely related to the Toyota discussion. If I had any kids, they would not be allowed out on the street until they had maybe half a dozen, preferably more, autocross events. Safe drivers know what their cars can and can not do, they don't just close their eyes, slam on the brakes and scream. mjb. Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4833 (20100203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4833 (20100203) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From mark at bradakis.com Wed Feb 3 22:10:47 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:10:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Off topic, airplane stuff Message-ID: <4B6A56D7.9070903@bradakis.com> I imagine some of you might enjoy this. http://www.wimp.com/breathtakingfootage/ mjb. ps: Mr. Brearley, the usual address is donations at autox.team.net but don't worry, I got it. From shiples at comcast.net Wed Feb 3 22:07:21 2010 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:07:21 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] What cars can and can't do In-Reply-To: <4B6A36F1.3040108@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100203205143.03803670@mail.comcast.net> At 07:54 PM 2/3/2010 -0700, Mark J Bradakis wrote: >This is vaguely related to the Toyota discussion. If I had any kids, they >would >not be allowed out on the street until they had maybe half a dozen, preferably >more, autocross events. Safe drivers know what their cars can and can not do, >they don't just close their eyes, slam on the brakes and scream. I took a beginners class from the AlfaRomeo club last year that started with a wet skid pad, panic brake, brake and steer, slalom, and ended with an autocross. Pretty cool, one guy had a Viper, one guy brought a 16yo with a Smart42. I was off course at one time and in the grass. Still have a lot to learn myself. In my neighborhood where the speed limit is 30 we constantly have accidents that result in SUVs on their roofs. http://westseattleblog.com/2010/02/traffic-alert-crash-closes-fauntleroy-at-dawson From paul.mele at usermail.com Wed Feb 3 22:18:19 2010 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 00:18:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] What cars can and can't do In-Reply-To: <4B6A36F1.3040108@bradakis.com> References: <4B6A36F1.3040108@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <003101caa559$77601b60$66205220$@mele@usermail.com> "...the most important part of the car is the nut behind the wheel..." see: http://www.streetsurvival.org/ for teen training. PM << If I had any kids, they wouldnot be allowed out on the street until they had maybe half a dozen, preferablymore, autocross events. Safe drivers know what their cars can and can not do, they don't just close their eyes, slam on the brakes and scream.>> From jibjib at att.net Wed Feb 3 22:21:07 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:21:07 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter In-Reply-To: References: <1588627577.621571264790169881.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B6337DB.6060906@linuxeg.com><4B6389C2.3050703@linuxeg.com><02EDD8BB44B046CB8EEAEBC350A605D3@hpa1477c><2400a5d41001310838h6c4ed267k67fd2f4043ef5507@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6131FC0FAA514AE7986925952AE84474@hpa1477c> I used alt 248 0 for a degree symbol, but it does not work any better than your failure did. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of gordies garage Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:36 AM To: Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter Actually, you can get the degree symbol by Alt 0176 and it comes out like this...0 Let's see if it shows up on the list, but I think it does. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "Jack Brooks" Cc: "Shop Talk List" Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] IR temperature meter > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Jack Brooks wrote: > >> What I wrote was about 5 "degrees" Rankine, but it came out as 50. >> >> 0 Rankine and 0 Kelvin are the same temp and as we know, there are 9 >> farenheit degrees for every Centigrade degree, so it was an easy >> conversion >> to about 5 degrees Rankine. >> > > 9 Fahrenheit degrees for every 5 Celsius degrees. > > >> >> Sorry for the confusion. I didn't realize that the conversion to plain >> text >> would eliminate the ASCII codes too. >> >> > The degree symbol isn't part of ASCII. > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4822 (20100131) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From mdporter at dfn.com Thu Feb 4 00:09:19 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 00:09:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Off topic, airplane stuff In-Reply-To: <4B6A56D7.9070903@bradakis.com> References: <4B6A56D7.9070903@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <4B6A729F.2070807@dfn.com> Mark J Bradakis wrote: > I imagine some of you might enjoy this. > > http://www.wimp.com/breathtakingfootage/ > > Quite a view. I'm surprised the trainer version is as stable as it is at altitude. Reminds of now five decades ago, when U-2s were being flown out of RAF Mildenhall in England. In 1958, one of the pilots had an emergency and couldn't make it the last sixty miles or so and had to land at Greenham Common. Mildenhall sent down a crew to fix the plane and bring along take-off equipment. The runways had been extended well before that time to SAC standards, about 13,000 ft. When ready to go, the pilot lined up about 30% of the way down the runway, started his takeoff roll and lifted off about 1500 ft later and immediately disappeared into the cloud cover. The tower didn't hear anything from him for four or five minutes and began to wonder if he'd still had a problem. Then he radioed, "I'm at 140 [14,000 ft], just now over the end of the runway." Show-off. :) Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Feb 4 03:58:33 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:58:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... References: Message-ID: <513A2763FED94DC6A28B3BE359025351@mde.state.md.us> > Someone suggested that if you left the car in gear after you turned the > engine off that the transmission would turn the engine over enough to keep > the power steering and brakes working. Only a manual transmission does this. Automatic transmissions disconnect because the engine is what drives the hydraulic pump. Simple test, turn the ignition key back on. If the engine is still being spun over, it will instantly begin to run. If you have to engage the starter motor, the engine was disconnected and not turning over. > Another post suggested that some manufacturers (I recall Nissan and BMW) > had > a "fail safe" condition in their ECU that would not allow the car to be > accelerated if there was pressure on the brake pedal. So far, I've yet to drive a car that refused to allow the car to be accelerated with the gas and brake pedal pushed. Every Honda/Nissan/Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/GM/VW I have driven allowed it. This includes a good number of 2009 model year vehicles. Not saying certain models don't have this lockout, but I've yet to encounter it. > Next I tested the fail safe system. Driving about 35 I put my left foot on > the brake and pressed as evenly as I could while also pushing on the > accelerator pedal. For someone not accustomed to left foot braking, this > is > not as easy as it sounds. I definitely was slowing down even though I was > pressing on the gas.I must say, I didn't "firewall" it but I think I was > pressing hard enough to give it a fair test. No, it wasn't a good or fair test. Any vehicle will slow down when the brakes are applied. That does not mean the brakes are adequate to stop a runaway at high speed. For that takes a whole lot more braking energy, which creates a whole lot more heat. And that heat is what causes the brakes to fade and fail. Try your test again at 70 mph, and try to bring the car to a complete and total halt. That you will find to be quite different. Now make the mistake many people make, and try to "control" the vehicle instead of simply stopping it immediately. From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Feb 4 04:32:27 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 06:32:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha References: <898729.34761.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B68EF19.3000406@dfn.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20100203120108.046d0cc8@cox.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBC950@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <12A58EDC81F84FDD8456BC56F9085BAA@mde.state.md.us> > Again, EVER?YONE of those cars has an "OFF" position between "ON" and > "LOCKED" - it's required by federal regulations. > > The key positions are "LOCKED", "OFF", "RUN", "START". ACC or accessory. Some cars have that, and it can be on either side of the locked position. Jeep has it: ACC, LOCKED, OFF, RUN START, while Volvo has LOCKED, ACC, OFF, RUN, START. And that only applies to those vehicles with conventional keys. It does not apply to cars that start without the use of an ignition key. Some vehicles are remarkably difficult to seperate OFF from LOCKED. The Jeeps for example probably wins a prize for this. With Locked at 10:00, Off at 10:30 (and no detent), and Run sweeps from 10:30 to 2:00. Even in the shop I have to be very deliberate to make sure I actually get the key into the off position, and not lock. From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Thu Feb 4 05:49:41 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:49:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <513A2763FED94DC6A28B3BE359025351@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1> > Someone suggested that if you left the car in gear after you turned > the engine off that the transmission would turn the engine over enough > to keep the power steering and brakes working. Only a manual transmission does this. Automatic transmissions disconnect because the engine is what drives the hydraulic pump. Simple test, turn the ignition key back on. If the engine is still being spun over, it will instantly begin to run. If you have to engage the starter motor, the engine was disconnected and not turning over. FWIW....the Murano has a CVT transmission.....I don't know what effect this might have, but it is a lot different (and in my opinion, better) than a traditional transmission..... And as for Mr. Nolan's suggestion that I test it at 70, I guess I'll leave that to The Myth Busters. If I am faced with that issue, I know my Start/Stop button works. From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Feb 4 06:19:52 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:19:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Off topic, airplane stuff In-Reply-To: <4B6A56D7.9070903@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <465809.43004.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Check out the rear-view mirror (about 2/3 of the way). Doug --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > From: Mark J Bradakis > Subject: [Shop-talk] Off topic, airplane stuff > To: "'Shop Talk'" > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 12:10 AM > I imagine some of you might enjoy > this. > > http://www.wimp.com/breathtakingfootage/ > > > mjb. > > > ps: Mr. Brearley, the usual address is donations at autox.team.net > but don't worry, I got it. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Feb 4 06:25:44 2010 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:25:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Off topic, airplane stuff References: <4B6A56D7.9070903@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <97426C337DBC43BE9CAB0F871E564766@KARL> The pilot in that video, John Cabigas (known as Cabi) flies for fun, too. He's active on the Piper Cub forum - that's right, off duty he flies a Cub, kind of a change from a U-2 !! Karl >I imagine some of you might enjoy this. > > http://www.wimp.com/breathtakingfootage/ > > > mjb. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 4 08:16:19 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:16:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1> Message-ID: > Only a manual transmission does this. Automatic > transmissions disconnect > because the engine is what drives the hydraulic pump. Simple > test, turn the ignition key back on. If the engine is still being spun over, BTDT. At any significant speed, and as long as you leave it in gear, the transmission will continue to turn the engine. This is known as compression braking. Basically, as long as the engine is turning, the transmission stays engaged, which keeps the engine turning. This has been true for every automatic I've owned, though I've never owned a CVT. For most automatics, though, once you shift out of gear, the engine stops and shifting back into gear won't start it. There have been a few that had a rear oil pump, but not many. > And as for Mr. Nolan's suggestion that I test it at 70, I > guess I'll leave > that to The Myth Busters. If I am faced with that issue, I know my > Start/Stop button works. Ditto. Just too much mechanical violence to try on my own car. But as I've explained before, I've come close enough that I can see where it would be a significant problem for most people. For example, one thing they drummed into our heads during Driver's Ed was that, if the brakes don't work, pump them. Without boost, it seems like the brakes don't work, and yet pumping them is the worst possible thing to do. Nolan wrote: > Now make the mistake many people make, and try to "control" the > vehicle instead of simply stopping it immediately. Indeed, I believe this is part of the problem, what I call the "I got it" syndrome. At first it appears that you can control the speed of the car (as so many on this list have insisted is the case), long enough to reach a 'safe' stopping point away from traffic. But after slowing from 70 or 80 mph to say, 45, those brakes are going to be hot. And fighting several hundred horsepower is going to get them hotter, very quickly. By the time you discover that they are overheated, it's too late. Even with just 100 bhp on tap, you can get noticeable brake fade in less than a minute by driving at low speed, full throttle and controlling the speed with the brakes. This was actually recommended procedure for my 70 Audi, to condition new brake pads. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 4 08:21:43 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:21:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha In-Reply-To: <12A58EDC81F84FDD8456BC56F9085BAA@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <27.A2.09832.706EA6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > Even in the > shop I have to be very deliberate to make sure I actually get > the key into > the off position, and not lock. Try it with the gearshift not in Park. I believe it's federal law that there be an interlock of some sort. Randall From mark at nashvilletn.org Thu Feb 4 08:35:13 2010 From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 09:35:13 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Pedal Brouhaha References: Message-ID: <2D20B9D72F054D319C140F020B60913D@Dell9200> Has anybody thought about the potential of the self serving interest of our government regarding the Toyota recall. With our governments financial stake in GM is there perhaps mis-guided opportunity to discredit a competitor. I am in agreement that Toyota has issues but I have a problem "letting the monkeys guard the bananas". Of course if not the government then who? I have an 07 GMC that has a multitude of problems that seemingly can't be fixed. A potential fire hazard in the washer fluid heater was fixed by removing the fuse! The loose drivers seat needs new tracks but it is seemingly impossible to get the parts. Power steering pump sounds like it is about to blow and there have been reports that it just might. Where is the DOT on a GM problem? All of this and more before 30,000 miles. Mark Nashville From jem at milleredp.com Thu Feb 4 09:15:55 2010 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 08:15:55 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1> Message-ID: <4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com> > Only a manual transmission does this. Automatic transmissions disconnect > because the engine is what drives the hydraulic pump. Simple test, turn the A few automatics have the pump driven off the output side of the transmission, and I think some early ones actually had pumps on both input and output shafts. This maintains lubrication flow within the transmission. I believe some models of Saturn did as well; they could be flat-towed without blowing up the transmission, which made them very popular in the RV world. Most automatics will blow up from lack of lubrication if you coast them for a prolonged period without the engine running. > FWIW....the Murano has a CVT transmission.....I don't know what effect this > might have, but it is a lot different (and in my opinion, better) than a > traditional transmission..... I haven't yet driven a CVT that really felt 'right'. > And as for Mr. Nolan's suggestion that I test it at 70, I guess I'll leave > that to The Myth Busters. If I am faced with that issue, I know my > Start/Stop button works. As far as I'm concerned the proper response to the whole throttle-stick thing is to stuff the transmission in neutral. It's an easy lizard-brain response that requires no mental checklist, you won't cover three football fields (or rear-end the bus in front of you) zipping down the road while you decide what to do. On anything modern with a rev limiter you're not really risking damage, and with the engine running the power steering and brakes will continue to operate (in most vehicles - unless the steering assist is electric or electrohydraulic - turning off the engine will immediately kill the PS boost, you'll have some vacuum or hydraulic-accumulator reserve on the brakes for a couple stops.) I'm sure there's some car out there that won't go into neutral, but every thing we've got does. John. From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Thu Feb 4 10:16:59 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:16:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <513A2763FED94DC6A28B3BE359025351@mde.state.md.us> References: <513A2763FED94DC6A28B3BE359025351@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703DBCCEA@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Nolan wrote: >> Someone suggested that if you left the car in gear after you turned >> the engine off that the transmission would turn the engine over enough >> to keep the power steering and brakes working. > > Only a manual transmission does this. Automatic transmissions > disconnect because the engine is what drives the hydraulic pump. That was me. And I beg to differ with you about the automatic. Yes, if the car is not moving then the transmission can't turn over the engine - that's why you can't push start an automatic. However, the engine turns over the hydraulic pump in the transmission. Once that is pressurized, and the car is moving, the transmission is still coupled to the engine (through the torque converter) - as long as the car is moving, there gears are still engaged, and the pump will be turned. It will keep the engine connected to transmission as long as the car is moving (at least a little bit), and you will continue to have the engine turning the power steering pump. > Simple test, turn the ignition key back on. If the engine is still being > spun over, it will instantly begin to run. Done this many times. It works just fine (although it may not be good on the engine). > Try your test again at 70 mph, and try to bring the car to a complete > and total halt. That you will find to be quite different. Now > make the mistake many people make, and try to "control" the > vehicle instead of simply stopping it immediately. And that last sentence is the important part. Most any car out there should be able to stop from 70 mph at WOT. If the person actually tries to stop it instead of trying to slow it down and control it. One stop - yep. Drag the brakes for a few miles - nope. Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From pethier at comcast.net Thu Feb 4 11:48:11 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 18:48:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <1545926757.3096061265309291358.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ----- "John Miller" wrote: > A few automatics have the pump driven off the output side of the > transmission, and I think some early ones actually had pumps on both > input and output shafts. This maintains lubrication flow within the > transmission. > > I believe some models of Saturn did as well; they could be flat-towed > without blowing up the transmission, which made them very popular in > the RV world. True. I have seen the documentation on this at the Saturn dealer. I wouldn't have an autotrans car (stuck with it on the truck though), but if an RV family must have an automatic in their toad, Saturn was a good choice. Some models required you to pull a fuse or some such. > As far as I'm concerned the proper response to the whole > throttle-stick > thing is to stuff the transmission in neutral. Agreed. > I'm sure there's some car out there that won't go into neutral, but > every thing we've got does. I hope so. It's a good thing to do in certain slippery conditions where your manual-transmision impulse would be to bash in the clutch. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From arvidj at visi.com Thu Feb 4 12:21:44 2010 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:21:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1> <4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com> Just curious, if it is only on the output side how do you ever get it to do anything? The pump would not be turning if the car is not moving and I can only assume that if the pump is not turning there is no pressure available to engage anything to get the car moving. I must be missing something here ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Miller" To: "'shop-talk'" Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... > A few automatics have the pump driven off the output side of the > transmission, and I think some early ones actually had pumps on both input > and output shafts. This maintains lubrication flow within the > transmission. From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Thu Feb 4 14:10:48 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 15:10:48 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com> <464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Arvid Jedlicka Wrote: > > Just curious, if it is only on the output side how do you ever get it > to do anything? > >The pump would not be turning if the car is not moving and I can > only assume that if the pump is not turning there is no pressure > available to engage anything to get the car moving. I must be > missing something here ... The pump (in the transmission) is driven by the engine under normal circumstances. Start the engine and it turns the input side of the transmission which turns the hydraulic pump. With the pump turning, there is hydraulic pressure that allows you to "put it in gear". The pump is driven from the input side of the transmission. If the car is moving and you shut off the engine, the transmission is still "locked in gear" (because it had hydraulic pressure) and the output side of the transmission can operate the hydraulic pump and continue to turn the engine over (the input and output of the transmission are locked together). Once you put it in neutral (with the engine off), the input and output are no longer locked, and the input side stops turning - and the hydraulic pump stops pumping. Now if you put it back in gear, it won't turn over the engine (or the pump) as there was no hydraulic pressure to keep things "locked". Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 4 15:13:38 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:13:38 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <1545926757.3096061265309291358.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com> <1545926757.3096061265309291358.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <0529425705A74B649898B3DE203FBFDA@jdnet.deere.com> > but if an RV family must have an automatic > in their toad, Saturn was a good choice. Just for clarity, many manual transmission cars suffer from the same problem. They rely on the countershaft spinning to fling oil around and lubricate the works; but the countershaft is geared to the input shaft. Flat-towing them without disconnecting the driveshaft is not a good idea, and is generally specifically forbidden except for short distance, low speed tows. (ISTR my owner's manual said no more than 40 miles, no more than 40 mph, but I might have misremembered.) I've got a TR3 input shaft with the bearing ruined, apparently from being towed a significant distance with the rear wheels on the ground, after it was wrecked. Makes a good tool for centering the clutch disc -- Randall From arvidj at visi.com Thu Feb 4 16:14:37 2010 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 17:14:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com><464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com> Tim, Thanks. We agree on how it works with just an input pump and various scenarios of the engine running, not running, in a gear, not in a gear, etc. But the original statement from John ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Miller" To: "'shop-talk'" Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... > A few automatics have the pump driven off the output side of the > transmission, and I think some early ones actually had pumps on both input > and output shafts. This maintains lubrication flow within the > transmission. implies that there was only a pump on the output side - otherwise there would not have been a qualifier about "both input and output" ... which is why I was asking how that particular scenario worked. Your thoughts? Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullen, Tim (IS)" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... > Arvid Jedlicka Wrote: >> >> Just curious, if it is only on the output side how do you ever get it >> to do anything? >> >>The pump would not be turning if the car is not moving and I can >> only assume that if the pump is not turning there is no pressure >> available to engage anything to get the car moving. I must be >> missing something here ... > > The pump (in the transmission) is driven by the engine under normal > circumstances. Start the engine and it turns the input side of the > transmission which turns the hydraulic pump. With the pump turning, > there is hydraulic pressure that allows you to "put it in gear". The > pump is driven from the input side of the transmission. > > If the car is moving and you shut off the engine, the transmission is > still "locked in gear" (because it had hydraulic pressure) and the > output side of the transmission can operate the hydraulic pump and > continue to turn the engine over (the input and output of the > transmission are locked together). Once you put it in neutral (with the > engine off), the input and output are no longer locked, and the input > side stops turning - and the hydraulic pump stops pumping. Now if you > put it back in gear, it won't turn over the engine (or the pump) as > there was no hydraulic pressure to keep things "locked". > > Tim Mullen > > Chantilly, VA From 57healey at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 18:11:30 2010 From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 19:11:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space Message-ID: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage ( I think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 garage. It occured to me that I have lots of tools I just don't use, and many I may be able to downsize. What would you list as your bare essentials of tools. I am thinking a full set of hand tools, work bench, vice, shop vac, air compressor, jack, stands, chocks, electrical testers and lots of lights. I am not going to do body work again on my own, and specilized stuff like engine hoists can be rented or borrowed. I have drawn up a floorplan maximizing untaped wall and ceiling space to shelve and clear as much of the floor as possiblie. Anything else I need to put on the essential list. I know the blast cabinet is going and the air compressor will be downsized Thanks Patton Sent from my iPod From trimmer at charter.net Thu Feb 4 19:34:41 2010 From: trimmer at charter.net (Ron & Mary Trimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 20:34:41 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] There is more wrong with Toyota than the gas pedal Message-ID: <000001caa60b$c525f290$4f71d7b0$@net> Toyota is thought of as a "good" company because of their production of the Prius. However, they are probably the worst in the way they treat/exploit their workers. They have actually worked workers to death. Follow this link to get the report documenting this. http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562 From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Feb 4 20:22:16 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 22:22:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] sparky extension cord Message-ID: <0ADEA061AEDF4902A7B332FFEE099361@EricJRussellPC> My F250 PowerStroke (the truck I use to haul stuff to & from my shop...) has a block heater. I have noticed that when I unplug the extension cord from the block heater in the morning there is a noticeable spark as the connection is broken. Is this 'normal'? I haven't noticed sparks when unplugging other items (although that may be only because I unplug the block heater at oh-dark-thirty and can thus see the spark...). Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Feb 4 20:24:29 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 22:24:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> References: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010, Patton Dickson wrote: > It occured to me that I have lots of tools I just don't use, and many I may > be able to downsize. What would you list as your bare essentials of tools. > I am thinking a full set of hand tools, work bench, vice, shop vac, air > compressor, jack, stands, chocks, electrical testers and lots of lights. I > am not going to do body work again on my own, and specilized stuff like > engine hoists can be rented or borrowed. You just missed hitting the nail on the head in that last sentence... obtain one or more friends with more space, but fewer tools. Loan them everything you don't need, on an open-ended basis... 'borrow' it back when you do. My engine hoist and stand are a few miles south of here, but I can still use them almost anytime I want. As soon as you sell or give away anything, you'll need it a week later. -- David Hillman From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Feb 4 20:24:43 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 22:24:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> References: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <3129A9F0AD634432B1C98EFB0858620B@EricJRussellPC> Have you considered up-sizing the garage? Or a four post lift to park two cars in the footprint of one? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> >I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage ( I > think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest > objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 > garage. From 57healey at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 20:31:30 2010 From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 21:31:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <3129A9F0AD634432B1C98EFB0858620B@EricJRussellPC> References: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> <3129A9F0AD634432B1C98EFB0858620B@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <743b1e2f1002041931h133aebe8hf7ef535524c84c1f@mail.gmail.com> I don't have enough yard to grow the garage, plus it would be nearly impossible to get by our HOA. As for the lift, I don't have the ceiling height for that, just 8 feet with a garage door in the way when raised. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > Have you considered up-sizing the garage? Or a four post lift to park two > cars in the footprint of one? > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> > > > I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage ( I >> think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest >> objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 >> garage. >> > > -- Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out." From pethier at comcast.net Thu Feb 4 20:47:37 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 03:47:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <0529425705A74B649898B3DE203FBFDA@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <122236122.3337811265341657306.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Yes. I burned the output bearing on a Ford Cortina GT by flat-towing it. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Randall" wrote: > From: "Randall" > Cc: "shop-talk" > Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2010 4:13:38 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... > > > but if an RV family must have an automatic > > in their toad, Saturn was a good choice. > > Just for clarity, many manual transmission cars suffer from the same > problem. They rely on the countershaft spinning to fling oil around > and > lubricate the works; but the countershaft is geared to the input > shaft. > Flat-towing them without disconnecting the driveshaft is not a good > idea, > and is generally specifically forbidden except for short distance, low > speed > tows. (ISTR my owner's manual said no more than 40 miles, no more > than 40 > mph, but I might have misremembered.) > > I've got a TR3 input shaft with the bearing ruined, apparently from > being > towed a significant distance with the rear wheels on the ground, after > it > was wrecked. Makes a good tool for centering the clutch disc > > -- Randall From mikey at b2systems.com Thu Feb 4 21:44:25 2010 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:44:25 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> References: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6BA229.5060301@b2systems.com> Weird, weird way of thinking...its obvious to me that you are not thinking correctly, if you have too many tools and not enough space, you just need to build a bigger garage to house the second toy. Its easy, just take out the back wall of the 20x20 and build a 20x22 on the back where the wall was so now you have a 20x42 :) mike (who might have done that instead of getting rid of tools) Patton Dickson wrote: > I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage ( I > think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest > objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 garage. > > It occured to me that I have lots of tools I just don't use, and many > I may be able to downsize. What would you list as your bare > essentials of tools. I am thinking a full set of hand tools, work > bench, vice, shop vac, air compressor, jack, stands, chocks, > electrical testers and lots of lights. I am not going to do body work > again on my own, and specilized stuff like engine hoists can be rented > or borrowed. > > I have drawn up a floorplan maximizing untaped wall and ceiling space > to shelve and clear as much of the floor as possiblie. Anything else > I need to put on the essential list. I know the blast cabinet is going > and the air compressor will be downsized > Thanks > Patton From mikey at b2systems.com Thu Feb 4 23:06:57 2010 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:06:57 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f1002041931h133aebe8hf7ef535524c84c1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> <3129A9F0AD634432B1C98EFB0858620B@EricJRussellPC> <743b1e2f1002041931h133aebe8hf7ef535524c84c1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6BB581.2050106@b2systems.com> 8ft ceilings are no problem for the Healey's :) http://www.singercars.com/restoration/lift_images/finished.jpg * *That was BEFORE I grew the garage and yeah, I did make the extension with 9ft. walls and used scissor joists for a cathedral ceiling. If you can't grow a lift can come in handy. With only a 8ft. ceiling, you will have to work on the car in a chair I had a old office chair with casters that I would sit in and roll around under the car. I also had to be very careful where to place the car so the garage door did not hit the car. Mike (who has been EXACTLY where you are now but chose to keep the tools) * *Patton Dickson wrote: > I don't have enough yard to grow the garage, plus it would be nearly > impossible to get by our HOA. As for the lift, I don't have the ceiling > height for that, just 8 feet with a garage door in the way when raised. > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > > >> Have you considered up-sizing the garage? Or a four post lift to park two >> cars in the footprint of one? >> >> Eric Russell >> Mebane, NC >> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> >> >> >> I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage ( I >> >>> think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest >>> objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 >>> garage. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 4 23:46:39 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 22:46:39 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] sparky extension cord In-Reply-To: <0ADEA061AEDF4902A7B332FFEE099361@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <34.77.04656.0DEBB6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > Is this 'normal'? Yeah, it's normal. Pretty much any time you disconnect a load, there is a small spark. Most often you don't see it, because you've turned off a switch that disconnected the load first (so the spark was inside the switch). Randall From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Feb 5 07:04:00 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:04:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] sparky extension cord In-Reply-To: <0ADEA061AEDF4902A7B332FFEE099361@EricJRussellPC> References: <0ADEA061AEDF4902A7B332FFEE099361@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <4B6C2550.6020408@xxiii.com> On 2/4/2010 10:22 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > block heater. I have noticed that when I unplug the extension cord from the > block heater in the morning there is a noticeable spark as the connection is > broken. Is this 'normal'? I haven't noticed sparks when unplugging other items I'm going way out on the limb with a guess here... since it's been ~ 25 years since I flunked out of EE. But from what I remember, the spark is related to the collapse of the electric field, and its field energy being dissipated. An inductive load of even just a coiled up heating element would have a bigger field than say, a light bulb, and make a bigger spark when disconnected. Plus there's probably just enough extra shade under the hood to make it seem brighter. -Wayne From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Fri Feb 5 07:08:25 2010 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 08:08:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] sparky extension cord In-Reply-To: <0ADEA061AEDF4902A7B332FFEE099361@EricJRussellPC> References: <0ADEA061AEDF4902A7B332FFEE099361@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: Eric, You are dealing with a couple of things here. You can see the spark more clearly in the dark, thus you noticed it. If it is cold enough that the heater is heating it is still on consuming electricity. Most things are turned off when you unplug them. When you turn off the device the spark happened inside the power switch, out of sight out of mind. This is why there are special wiring procedures and switches for explosive environments. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From pethier at comcast.net Fri Feb 5 07:46:18 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 14:46:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1378634928.39751265381178579.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ----- "David Hillman" wrote: > obtain one or more friends with more space, but fewer tools. Loan > them > everything you don't need, on an open-ended basis... 'borrow' it back > when > you do. My engine hoist and stand are a few miles south of here, but > I > can still use them almost anytime I want. Essentially, fund your own "bubba ring". I like it. > As soon as you sell or give away anything, you'll need it a week > later. You bet. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Feb 5 07:53:26 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:53:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] There is more wrong with Toyota than the gas pedal In-Reply-To: <000001caa60b$c525f290$4f71d7b0$@net> References: <000001caa60b$c525f290$4f71d7b0$@net> Message-ID: <4B6C30E6.9090208@xxiii.com> On 2/4/2010 9:34 PM, Ron & Mary Trimmer wrote: > However, they are probably the worst in the way they treat/exploit their > workers. They have actually worked workers to death. Follow this link to > get the report documenting this. Didn't read the whole thing, but the majority strikes me as bullshit written by a lazy overpaid soon to be unemployed fuck UAW worker trying to stir up resentment towards Toyota. -Wayne From rkg at teleport.com Fri Feb 5 07:54:28 2010 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 06:54:28 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f1002041931h133aebe8hf7ef535524c84c1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> <3129A9F0AD634432B1C98EFB0858620B@EricJRussellPC> <743b1e2f1002041931h133aebe8hf7ef535524c84c1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6C3124.8070301@teleport.com> Patton, There used to be lifts designed by harding-afg specifically for storing cars that would lift and/or tilt the upper vehicle in various ways, varying from storing the cars above each other to simply tilting the front car forward so you could nose the other car in underneath it. I have one of these and currently store two cars on top of each other in a garage with an 8' ceiling (with a beam in the middle(!)). You might see if somebody still makes a unit like this. Best, rkg (Richard George) > I don't have enough yard to grow the garage, plus it would be nearly > impossible to get by our HOA. As for the lift, I don't have the ceiling > height for that, just 8 feet with a garage door in the way when raised. > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > > >> Have you considered up-sizing the garage? Or a four post lift to park two >> cars in the footprint of one? >> >> Eric Russell >> Mebane, NC >> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> >> >> >> I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage ( I >> >>> think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest >>> objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 >>> garage. >>> >>> >> > > > > I don't have enough yard to grow the garage, plus it would be nearly > impossible to get by our HOA. As for the lift, I don't have the ceiling > height for that, just 8 feet with a garage door in the way when raised. > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > > >> Have you considered up-sizing the garage? Or a four post lift to park two >> cars in the footprint of one? >> >> Eric Russell >> Mebane, NC >> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> >> >> >> I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage ( I >> >>> think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest >>> objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 >>> garage. From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Feb 5 10:01:33 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 12:01:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? Message-ID: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> In the ongoing quest to organize the toolboxes, I'm looking for socket organizers. The ones with a pre-determined number of 1/4", 3/8" etc posts don't work since I have lots of "extra" sockets, like 3 spark plug sockets, etc. I also don't like having to wrestle a socket off a snug post with greasy hands. I'm thinking a magnetic tray would be the most convenient, like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002STSTY/ref=asc_df_B0002STSTY1023286?smid=ATVPDKI KX0DER&tag=googlecom09c9-20&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B0002ST STY Er, try http://tinyurl.com/yzyzxu5 But that'll get pricy after a while. I also found this bargain but it's catalog only, and shipping is $7 so it's not exactly a throwaway if it's garbage. Anyone have one? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44487 What works for you? jim From marka at maracing.com Fri Feb 5 10:09:23 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 12:09:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] There is more wrong with Toyota than the gas pedal In-Reply-To: <4B6C30E6.9090208@xxiii.com> References: <000001caa60b$c525f290$4f71d7b0$@net> <4B6C30E6.9090208@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 5 Feb 2010, Wayne wrote: >> However, they are probably the worst in the way they treat/exploit their >> workers. They have actually worked workers to death. Follow this link to >> get the report documenting this. > > Didn't read the whole thing, but the majority strikes me as bullshit written > by a lazy overpaid soon to be unemployed fuck UAW worker trying to stir up > resentment towards Toyota. Once again, can we please keep the political bullsh*t off the list? Mark From parkanzky at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 10:56:50 2010 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 12:56:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] There is more wrong with Toyota than the gas pedal In-Reply-To: <000001caa60b$c525f290$4f71d7b0$@net> References: <000001caa60b$c525f290$4f71d7b0$@net> Message-ID: This would counter what I've read about Toyota. My understanding is that they're great employers, run efficient operations that empower their workers, are careful to minimize wasted resources, etc. Toyota is often held up as a model in the corporate world for how processes should be designed. -Paul On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Ron & Mary Trimmer wrote: > Toyota is thought of as a "good" company because of their production of the > Prius. > > However, they are probably the worst in the way they treat/exploit their > workers. They have actually worked workers to death. Follow this link to > get the report documenting this. > > http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562 From parkanzky at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 11:00:06 2010 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 13:00:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <4B6C3124.8070301@teleport.com> References: <6CD9E517-7B16-40EA-AA3B-8A3C0A2F7409@Gmail.com> <3129A9F0AD634432B1C98EFB0858620B@EricJRussellPC> <743b1e2f1002041931h133aebe8hf7ef535524c84c1f@mail.gmail.com> <4B6C3124.8070301@teleport.com> Message-ID: They're still around: http://www.hardingsteel.com/ On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Richard George wrote: > Patton, > There used to be lifts designed by harding-afg specifically for storing cars > that would lift and/or tilt the upper vehicle in > various ways, varying from storing the cars above each other to simply > tilting the front car forward so you could nose the other car in underneath > it. > I have one of these and currently store two cars on top of each other in a > garage with an 8' ceiling (with a beam in the middle(!)). > > You might see if somebody still makes a unit like this. > > Best, > rkg > (Richard George) >> >> I don't have enough yard to grow the garage, plus it would be nearly >> impossible to get by our HOA. As for the lift, I don't have the ceiling >> height for that, just 8 feet with a garage door in the way when raised. From pethier at comcast.net Fri Feb 5 11:51:46 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:51:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space In-Reply-To: <4B6C3124.8070301@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1537242567.167521265395906758.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Now, if you REALLY want to spend money, there is an outfit that will install a lift that goes DOWN and stores your car unseen underground. Don't forget to move the top car out before retrieving the bottom car... Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Richard George" wrote: > From: "Richard George" > To: "Patton Dickson" <57healey at gmail.com> > Cc: "Healey List" , "Shop-Talk" > Sent: Friday, February 5, 2010 8:54:28 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Downsizing tools and maximizing garage space > > Patton, > There used to be lifts designed by harding-afg specifically for > storing > cars that would lift and/or tilt the upper vehicle in > various ways, varying from storing the cars above each other to simply > > tilting the front car forward so you could nose the other car in > underneath it. > I have one of these and currently store two cars on top of each other > in > a garage with an 8' ceiling (with a beam in the middle(!)). > > You might see if somebody still makes a unit like this. > > Best, > rkg > (Richard George) > > I don't have enough yard to grow the garage, plus it would be > nearly > > impossible to get by our HOA. As for the lift, I don't have the > ceiling > > height for that, just 8 feet with a garage door in the way when > raised. > > > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Eric J Russell > wrote: > > > > > >> Have you considered up-sizing the garage? Or a four post lift to > park two > >> cars in the footprint of one? > >> > >> Eric Russell > >> Mebane, NC > >> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" > <57healey at gmail.com> > >> > >> > >> I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage > ( I > >> > >>> think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest > >>> objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 > >>> garage. > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I don't have enough yard to grow the garage, plus it would be > nearly > > impossible to get by our HOA. As for the lift, I don't have the > ceiling > > height for that, just 8 feet with a garage door in the way when > raised. > > > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Eric J Russell > wrote: > > > > > >> Have you considered up-sizing the garage? Or a four post lift to > park two > >> cars in the footprint of one? > >> > >> Eric Russell > >> Mebane, NC > >> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patton Dickson" > <57healey at gmail.com> > >> > >> > >> I have come to the conclusion I want a second "toy" in the garage > ( I > >> > >>> think a Saab 900 Turbo convertible) and one of the wife's biggest > >>> objections is how I am going to fit it and the Healey in my 20x20 > >>> garage. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From nases at verizon.net Fri Feb 5 12:44:39 2010 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:44:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] under lift lighting Message-ID: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> I have a four post lift in the garage. Has anyone found a solution for providing good lighting under the lift? Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From opposumking at verizon.net Fri Feb 5 12:48:19 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:48:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com><464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > Tim, > > Thanks. We agree on how it works with just an input pump and various > scenarios of the engine running, not running, in a gear, not in a > gear, etc. But the original statement from John ... > implies that there was only a pump on the output side - otherwise > there would not have been a qualifier about "both input and output" > ... which is why I was asking how that particular scenario worked. > > Your thoughts? It's part of a major misunderstanding of how torque converters and automatic transmissions work. To start with, not a single automatic transmission made has an input shaft. Not a single automatic transmission made has a hydraulic pump driven from a non-existant input shaft. They have torque converters. The hydraulic pumps are driven by the outer casing of the torque converter. This is directly bolted to the engine crankshaft, and slotted into the hydraulic pump. If the engine is turning, the hydraulic pump is turning. This hydraulic pump cannot, and does not, turn the engine when the engine is turned off. The hydraulic pump is absolutely incapable of doing this. Power is transferred to the transmission via the output shaft of the torque converter. This is hydraulically driven by the spinning blades of the engine connected casing pushing against the blades of the output shaft. This system is very directional, as the engine turns one way only. It is all but incapable of producing any appreciable force in the other direction. That is why it cannot turn the engine over. Lock up torque converters are capable of keeping the engine turning over if the torque converter stays locked. I know of none that are designed to stay locked when the power to the engine is turned off. Some automatic transmissions are designed intentionally or incidentally to be able to be towed. This is by some method of providing lubrication to the moving parts, usually a seperate lubrication pump on the output shaft of the transmission (or transaxle). This setup does not power up the transmission, or produce hydraulic pressure in the actuation system, that is a function of the engine driven hydraulic pump. It simply keeps lubrication flowing around the parts that rotate when the car is being towed. From opposumking at verizon.net Fri Feb 5 13:00:03 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:00:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4B6C78C3.1000903@verizon.net> I've had the magnetic racks and the pinned type both. Got rid of them eventually. The pinned rack type is almost nice in a shop where you roll your cabinet around everywhere and never work of a table or in the driveway. Otherwise, you're trying to carry around handfuls of sockets, and that gets old real fast. The magnetic ones don't hold securely, especially larger deep wall sockets. Turn the carrier over and they fall out. I found that most agravating. So I end up back at my racks of spring loaded clips, and some specialized socket trays. The harborfreight ones are cheap, so I don't mind cutting them to specific lengths. From arvidj at visi.com Fri Feb 5 13:18:59 2010 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 14:18:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: I happen to have 6 of the magnetic ones - one pair for 1/4, one pair for 3/8, one pair for 1/2. The to add to the anal retentive nature of it all, the green one is "standard" and the red one is "metric". They are loaded up with a standard and a deep of all the reasonable sizes and meet the "in one easy step I can pick up what I will most likely need" requirements. > Er, try http://tinyurl.com/yzyzxu5 Then everything else - i.e. all of the extra sparkplug sockets etc, are organized using these ... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96343 which are easy enough to pick up and take to the work area if the normal set doesn't make the grade. They also keep the exoteric stuff from rolling around loose in the toolbox. Arvid From parkanzky at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 15:30:57 2010 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 17:30:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] under lift lighting In-Reply-To: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> References: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> Message-ID: One of the guys on our Lemons team has one of these: http://www.toolprofessional.net/The-Saber-Light-30Watt-Underhood-Light/M/B001 U5JQT0.htm Except that it's SnapOn or Matco or some such. We used it all weekend and every time we got it out I thought, "Man that's cool!" I think one or two of them would be just the ticket for working under the lift. Put one at the front of the lift pointing in and down and move it to under the hood or down underneath the car between the posts at the front as appropriate. I need to figure out which of those I want and add it to my wish list. -Paul On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Phil Nase wrote: > I have a four post lift in the garage. Has anyone found a solution for > providing good lighting under the lift? > > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From jblair1948 at cox.net Fri Feb 5 16:10:14 2010 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:10:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100205180451.04360670@cox.net> At 12:01 PM 2/5/2010, Jim Franklin wrote: >In the ongoing quest to organize the toolboxes, I'm looking for socket >organizers. The ones with a pre-determined number of 1/4", 3/8" etc posts >don't work since I have lots of "extra" sockets, like 3 spark plug sockets, >etc. I also don't like having to wrestle a socket off a snug post with greasy >hands. Jim, I just went through the same thing. I had some of the Sears (Craftsman) metal bars with the metal clips. I do sort of like them as I can grab a stick and have most of my SAEs or Metric or Impact (SAE or Metric) etc sockets. But it was a pain trying to get the sockets on and off the sticks. I saw some plastic ones at an auto parts store which I liked as they came in 3 different colors - 1 for Metric, 1 for SAE, and 1 for what ever. But I couldn't find all the sizes (1/4, 3/8s, and 1/2" drive). Then I was a Sears looking for something. I noticed they had the plastic bars with plastic square and ball bearing detents. I purchased a set of them. I really like them a lot better than the metal ones. The only thing I don't like is that I can't get different colors so I can easily identify my SAE and Metric sizes. I do keep the SAEs on the left side of the drawer, and the Metrics on the right, but I'd still like the sticks color coded. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From bjzwissler at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 16:55:40 2010 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:55:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com><464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com> <4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B6CAFFC.4030909@gmail.com> Quote from earlier message: "Power is transferred to the transmission via the output shaft of the torque converter. This is hydraulically driven by the spinning blades of the engine connected casing pushing against the blades of the output shaft. This system is very directional, as the engine turns one way only. It is all but incapable of producing any appreciable force in the other direction. That is why it cannot turn the engine over." OK, I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but if this is true, how is it the engine can slow the car down when the driver lets off the throttle? To get engine braking the transmission must be pushing against the engine and the engine must be resisting the force through the torque converter. This is true without regard to whether a modern, lock-up converters is being used or not. Torque converters must be capable of transmitting torque in both directions or there would be no engine braking effect. There may a difference in efficiency between the two directions, but its clearly not 100% one way and 0% the other. Ben.... Ben Zwissler bjzwissler at gmail.com Columbus, IN 1966 Triumph TR4A 1973 MG Midget 1980 Triumph TR8 2007 Mazda RX8 2002 Yamaha FZ1 2003 Honda ST1300 On 2/5/2010 2:48 PM, Nolan wrote: > Arvid Jedlicka wrote: >> Tim, >> >> Thanks. We agree on how it works with just an input pump and various >> scenarios of the engine running, not running, in a gear, not in a >> gear, etc. But the original statement from John ... >> implies that there was only a pump on the output side - otherwise >> there would not have been a qualifier about "both input and output" >> ... which is why I was asking how that particular scenario worked. >> >> Your thoughts? > It's part of a major misunderstanding of how torque converters and > automatic transmissions work. To start with, not a single automatic > transmission made has an input shaft. Not a single automatic > transmission made has a hydraulic pump driven from a non-existant > input shaft. They have torque converters. The hydraulic pumps are > driven by the outer casing of the torque converter. This is directly > bolted to the engine crankshaft, and slotted into the hydraulic pump. > If the engine is turning, the hydraulic pump is turning. This > hydraulic pump cannot, and does not, turn the engine when the engine > is turned off. The hydraulic pump is absolutely incapable of doing this. > > Lock up torque converters are capable of keeping the engine turning > over if the torque converter stays locked. I know of none that are > designed to stay locked when the power to the engine is turned off. > Some automatic transmissions are designed intentionally or > incidentally to be able to be towed. This is by some method of > providing lubrication to the moving parts, usually a seperate > lubrication pump on the output shaft of the transmission (or > transaxle). This setup does not power up the transmission, or produce > hydraulic pressure in the actuation system, that is a function of the > engine driven hydraulic pump. It simply keeps lubrication flowing > around the parts that rotate when the car is being towed. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From shop at justbrits.com Fri Feb 5 17:01:57 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:01:57 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4B6CB175.4020407@justbrits.com> I have similar : http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=storage&item_ID=83742&group_ID=3223&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog or *http://tinyurl.com/y9rxnkc Clips come in ALL socket wrench sizes and can either be laid down, screwed/bolted into place*,* etc., etc. !!! Handy and can be portable. Some actually come with angled & rubberized 'handles' AND INEXPENSIVE !!!! !! * From racertod at racertodd.com Fri Feb 5 17:26:30 2010 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:26:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205161332.00bd12a0@mail.blarg.net> Hands down the trickest socket organizer I've seen is by Socket Logic (www.socketlogic.com). They put all sockets of each size in a column so if you need a deep 17mm instead of a standard 17mm - it's right there in the next slot. Clear, easy to read size labels. Has a handle so you can lug your entire socket set around to various projects with ease. Doesn't help organize all the extra weirdo sockets but you can put your entire set of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2", deep and shallow sockets in one unit. It is a bit tall (dimensions are on the site), so they may not work in the drawers of some toolboxes. Like mine. Grrrrrrr. Bought a set for a friend of mine for Christmas, though. They're nicely made, look real solid - no flimsy Chinese crap. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 230,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Feb 5 17:29:19 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 16:29:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com><464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com> <4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <35EABBED1C46457DB74CBE4E57170D1B@jdnet.deere.com> > It is all but > incapable of producing any appreciable force in the other > direction. That is why it cannot turn the engine over. Sorry, Nolan, but I simply disagree. If what you say is true, then it would not slow the car down to manually select a lower gear. Every single automatic transmission that I have ever driven will do at least some level of compression braking, even if not as much as a manual. (Well, maybe not the Prius. It probably did regeneration instead of dumping energy into the piston engine.) When I was a kid, Dad even owned an automatic transmission car (Olds F85 as I recall, tho perhaps I'm mistaken on that point) that could be started by pushing the car. Bit exciting though, had to get up to 40 mph or so to do it (definitely a memorable experience on icy roads)! And there was no "some method" of lubrication; the rear pump delivered fluid into the torque converter and valve body and operating cylinders just like the front pump did. When the converter got enough fluid and speed difference, it would turn the engine. Insisting that the outer ring of the torque converter is not an "input shaft" is semantics at best. The converter is part and parcel of the automatic transmission, even though it lives outside the main casing, and a "shaft" can be hollow. -- Randall From racertod at racertodd.com Fri Feb 5 17:48:01 2010 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:48:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <513A2763FED94DC6A28B3BE359025351@mde.state.md.us> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205162739.00c5b6e8@mail.blarg.net> Nolan wrote: >So far, I've yet to drive a car that refused to allow the car to be >accelerated with the gas and brake pedal pushed. Every >Honda/Nissan/Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/GM/VW I have driven allowed it. This >includes a good number of 2009 model year vehicles. Not saying certain >models don't have this lockout, but I've yet to encounter it. I've verified today that my '01 Golf TDI, with drive-by-wire throttle, has the brake override the throttle. With the car stopped, pressed the brake pedal down. Pressed the throttle to the floor. Engine revved to 1200rpm and stayed there. Drove down a local empty side street at 2500rpm in 2nd gear (manual trans). Kept my foot on the throttle, stepped lightly on the brakes with my left foot. Just an inch or two, enough to trigger the brake switch but not enough to apply any real braking force. Engine revs immediately dropped, car slowed down, coasting and settling at 1200rpm even though the throttle was now to the floor. Don't know about other makes/models but on a '99.5-05 Golf/Jetta cars with a DBW throttle you should get the same results. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 230,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From shop at justbrits.com Fri Feb 5 20:33:51 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:33:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <35EABBED1C46457DB74CBE4E57170D1B@jdnet.deere.com> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com><464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com> <4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> <35EABBED1C46457DB74CBE4E57170D1B@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <4B6CE31F.5020805@justbrits.com> << When I was a kid, >> Aaaarrrrrggggg Randall !!! Although the ripe old age of 15 WITH my D/L I OWNED TWO [2] '59 Chery Impalas !!! <> Sounds correct to me. << Bit exciting though, had to get up to 40 mph or so to do it (definitely a memorable experience on icy roads)! >> 35 for Chevy PowerGlide !!! And if one wanted SERIOUS "engine braking" from say 60 MPH, just drop into 'L' [sorta Low]. Brakes? Who needed brakes ?!?! LOL And BTW, 'L' WOULD propel the car to approx 80 -85 [but only a few times - LOL]!! Ed From eric at megageek.com Sat Feb 6 00:29:23 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:59:23 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] More Toyota talks Message-ID: Wow, OK, being an official hater of Toyota, I guess they aren't all bad. This article made me eat my words.... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-borowitz/toyota-says-cup-holders-s_b_449089.html (Well, drink them at least!) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Sat Feb 6 00:29:32 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:59:32 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] under lift lighting In-Reply-To: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> Message-ID: I have a two post lift and I am looking for a solution to do the same thing. I am going to try LED lights on the top of the arms. But I'm all ears to what this list has to say. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Phil Nase Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 02/06/2010 02:42 To "shop-talk at autox.team.net List Talk" cc Subject [Shop-talk] under lift lighting I have a four post lift in the garage. Has anyone found a solution for providing good lighting under the lift? http://www.team.net/archive From nases at verizon.net Sat Feb 6 10:17:53 2010 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:17:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair Message-ID: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> I have a 15 year old Ariens 7hp Tecumsah engined 2 stage snow blower. It starts and runs well but no longer pitches the snow more than 6-8 feet. I have adjusted the idler pulley and the cable to the clutch is tight enough. I see no other adjustments to make for the the impeller. I've tried every thing I know to fix it but nothing has changed. The belts have very little time on them. I haven't worked on the throttle and am wondering whether I should have more power under load. My dad had a similar unit with a 6hp engine and that thing would throw the snow clear across a 30 foot street. Mine never did move the snow like his did but it is getting unusable. Any ideas? Thanks. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 6 12:02:57 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:02:57 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] There is more wrong with Toyota than the gas pedal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <33.F0.29573.1ECBD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > This would counter what I've read about Toyota. My understanding is > that they're great employers, run efficient operations that empower > their workers, are careful to minimize wasted resources, etc. Toyota > is often held up as a model in the corporate world for how processes > should be designed. Indeed, a friend of mine has been studying how Toyota manages to avoid the "us vs them" mentality that seems to permeate the US car makers and their unions. That's not to say all of their workers love them; and possibly even some of them have died on the job. But overall their employees seem a lot happier than those of the "big 3". Randall From gsteve at hammatt.com Sat Feb 6 12:30:11 2010 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:30:11 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair In-Reply-To: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> References: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <415022656B074A068E45CB596A30855A@DesktopPC> I have a 100 year old house with 2000 sq. ft shop/garage for sale in Skagit Valley, WA. We get snow about every other year.......and it lasts for a day! Then you don't have to worry 'bout those snow blower type things. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Nase" To: Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 9:17 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair >I have a 15 year old Ariens 7hp Tecumsah engined 2 stage snow blower. >It > starts and runs well but no longer pitches the snow more than 6-8 > feet. > > I have adjusted the idler pulley and the cable to the clutch is > tight enough. > I see no other adjustments to make for the the impeller. I've tried > every > thing I know to fix it but nothing has changed. The belts have very > little > time on them. I haven't worked on the throttle and am wondering > whether I > should have more power under load. > > My dad had a similar unit with a 6hp engine and that thing would > throw the > snow clear across a 30 foot street. > > Mine never did move the snow like his did but it is getting > unusable. > > Any ideas? Thanks. > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sat Feb 6 12:58:45 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:58:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair In-Reply-To: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6889F02F4018499CAA49DAB50CCD4989@Digilink1> Have you tried pulling the spark plug and seeing how hard it is to turn the blades? I wonder if you might have some frozen (no pun intended) bearings on the shaft..... From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Feb 6 13:00:06 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 15:00:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair In-Reply-To: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> References: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B6DCA46.5070909@xxiii.com> On 2/6/2010 12:17 PM, Phil Nase wrote: > I have a 15 year old Ariens 7hp Tecumsah engined 2 stage snow blower. It > starts and runs well but no longer pitches the snow more than 6-8 feet. Is it a 2 or 4 stroke Tecumseh? The 4 strokes I've had the displeasure of using were real finicky about carb and fuel problems. Thankfully, they're also super easy to work on. Dunno about the 2s. -Wayne From arvidj at visi.com Sat Feb 6 13:51:25 2010 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:51:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair References: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <049987E402534F89AAF95FD5B1709CF8@behavioral.com> I would think that the motor should run at least 3000 rpm without any load on it. Does it appear to do that? And then with a reasonable load on it I would not expect it to slow down a great deal if the motor is healthy and sized appropriately for the width of the machine. You did not mention how wide the cut is. Your dad's 6hp would have a much better time of it if it is only 24 to 30 inches wide than a 7hp working against a 36 or 40 inch cut. Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Nase" To: Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 11:17 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair >I have a 15 year old Ariens 7hp Tecumsah engined 2 stage snow blower. It > starts and runs well but no longer pitches the snow more than 6-8 feet. > > I have adjusted the idler pulley and the cable to the clutch is tight > enough. > I see no other adjustments to make for the the impeller. I've tried every > thing I know to fix it but nothing has changed. The belts have very little > time on them. I haven't worked on the throttle and am wondering whether I > should have more power under load. > > My dad had a similar unit with a 6hp engine and that thing would throw the > snow clear across a 30 foot street. > > Mine never did move the snow like his did but it is getting unusable. > > Any ideas? Thanks. > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From pethier at comcast.net Sat Feb 6 14:10:59 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:10:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair In-Reply-To: <1525459569.551401265490638309.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <132739423.551601265490659235.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Try a compression test. Mine did this and it had a burned valve. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Phil Nase" wrote: > From: "Phil Nase" > To: "shop-talk at autox.team.net Talk List" > Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2010 11:17:53 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair > > I have a 15 year old Ariens 7hp Tecumsah engined 2 stage snow blower. > It > starts and runs well but no longer pitches the snow more than 6-8 > feet. > > I have adjusted the idler pulley and the cable to the clutch is tight > enough. > I see no other adjustments to make for the the impeller. I've tried > every > thing I know to fix it but nothing has changed. The belts have very > little > time on them. I haven't worked on the throttle and am wondering > whether I > should have more power under load. > > My dad had a similar unit with a 6hp engine and that thing would throw > the > snow clear across a 30 foot street. > > Mine never did move the snow like his did but it is getting unusable. > > Any ideas? Thanks. > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From bspidell at comcast.net Sat Feb 6 14:18:40 2010 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:18:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair In-Reply-To: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> References: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B6DDCB0.2050701@comcast.net> After 15 years I'd guess your rings are shot and you've lost compression. bs Phil Nase wrote: > I have a 15 year old Ariens 7hp Tecumsah engined 2 stage snow blower. It > starts and runs well but no longer pitches the snow more than 6-8 feet. > > I have adjusted the idler pulley and the cable to the clutch is tight enough. > I see no other adjustments to make for the the impeller. I've tried every > thing I know to fix it but nothing has changed. The belts have very little > time on them. I haven't worked on the throttle and am wondering whether I > should have more power under load. > > My dad had a similar unit with a 6hp engine and that thing would throw the > snow clear across a 30 foot street. > > Mine never did move the snow like his did but it is getting unusable. > > Any ideas? Thanks. > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ > _______________________________________________ -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Feb 6 14:27:05 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:27:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock Message-ID: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Hey all, Wife has a big antique cuckoo clock that she would like hung "right there" on the drywall. This thing must weigh 30 pounds, plus every day someone has to pull on the chains to wind it up and of course we also live in an earthquake zone. She would really hate for it to come crashing down (it's supposedly over 100 years old and has some really fragile gingerbread, stag horns, etc.). If I had my druthers, I'd put a screw into a stud, but alas there is no stud where she wants the clock. I'm thinking to put a "molly" type anchor in the wall, and let it's bolt protrude to form a hook (the back wall of the clock is about 3/8" thick), but thought I would ask if anyone has a better suggestion. TIA -- Randall From opposumking at verizon.net Sat Feb 6 16:31:14 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:31:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <4B6CAFFC.4030909@gmail.com> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com><464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com> <4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> <4B6CAFFC.4030909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6DFBC2.4090805@verizon.net> You're right, it's not 100% and 0%. There is some force that can go the other way. I don't know the effectiveness ratio. I do know it's not much. I've never driven a gasoline engined vehicle that had much engine braking, even with a manual transmission. The engine is way too low in compression to give much. A diesel, yes. That's a different critter. > > OK, I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but if this is true, > how is it the engine can slow the car down when the driver lets off > the throttle? To get engine braking the transmission must be pushing > against the engine and the engine must be resisting the force through > the torque converter. This is true without regard to whether a > modern, lock-up converters is being used or not. Torque converters > must be capable of transmitting torque in both directions or there > would be no engine braking effect. There may a difference in > efficiency between the two directions, but its clearly not 100% one > way and 0% the other. From opposumking at verizon.net Sat Feb 6 16:34:22 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:34:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205162739.00c5b6e8@mail.blarg.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205162739.00c5b6e8@mail.blarg.net> Message-ID: <4B6DFC7E.3000308@verizon.net> Really? Now that's interesting. A friend has gasoline Jetta that definitely does not. As evidenced by the power braking antics one can do with it. It's about an 06. I wonder why the difference. > > I've verified today that my '01 Golf TDI, with drive-by-wire > throttle, has the brake override the throttle. From mark at bradakis.com Sat Feb 6 17:30:42 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:30:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B6E09B2.1060405@bradakis.com> I wouldn't trust just a single drywall anchor. I'd probably make a mounting plate, maybe a square foot or so of some sturdy wood and attach to the wall at the four corners. Then attach the clock to that. mjb. From nases at verizon.net Sat Feb 6 17:34:24 2010 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:34:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snow blower repair In-Reply-To: <049987E402534F89AAF95FD5B1709CF8@behavioral.com> References: <23B7EBD9-A7E1-4B5C-8E5E-6DD8E9709A0B@verizon.net> <049987E402534F89AAF95FD5B1709CF8@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <8EF01E12-141F-4D8F-9074-007A4A1742D4@verizon.net> MIne is 24" cut. It does bear down and move thru the snow but doesn't throw it far enough. I can't tell how many revs its developing but the engine sounds normal. Thanks everyone for you help. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I would think that the motor should run at least 3000 rpm without any load on it. Does it appear to do that? And then with a reasonable load on it I would not expect it to slow down a great deal if the motor is healthy and sized appropriately for the width of the machine. > > You did not mention how wide the cut is. Your dad's 6hp would have a much better time of it if it is only 24 to 30 inches wide than a 7hp working against a 36 or 40 inch cut. > > Arvid From bk13 at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 17:58:00 2010 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:58:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B6E1018.3030004@earthlink.net> Randall, I've had good luck with the screw in plastic anchors like # 892428 at Home Depot. This link may get you there. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100165900 They are more sensitive in plaster, but I used one on each end of the kid's towel bars in drywall and they held up to lots of pulling and tugging. I also used a couple to hand a big mail distro center at work. I found best results by predrilling a hole slightly smaller than the anchor. With plaster, you need to predrill and not overtighten. They've held up so far in my plaster walls at the current house. Brian Randall wrote: > Hey all, > > Wife has a big antique cuckoo clock that she would like hung "right there" > on the drywall. This thing must weigh 30 pounds, plus every day someone has > to pull on the chains to wind it up and of course we also live in an > earthquake zone. She would really hate for it to come crashing down (it's > supposedly over 100 years old and has some really fragile gingerbread, stag > horns, etc.). > > If I had my druthers, I'd put a screw into a stud, but alas there is no stud > where she wants the clock. > > I'm thinking to put a "molly" type anchor in the wall, and let it's bolt > protrude to form a hook (the back wall of the clock is about 3/8" thick), > but thought I would ask if anyone has a better suggestion. > > TIA > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From pj_thomas at comcast.net Sat Feb 6 18:08:36 2010 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:08:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B6E1294.3020107@comcast.net> On 2/6/2010 4:27 PM, Randall wrote: > Hey all, > > Wife has a big antique cuckoo clock that she would like hung "right there" > on the drywall. This thing must weigh 30 pounds, plus every day someone has > to pull on the chains to wind it up and of course we also live in an > earthquake zone. She would really hate for it to come crashing down (it's > supposedly over 100 years old and has some really fragile gingerbread, stag > horns, etc.). > > If I had my druthers, I'd put a screw into a stud, but alas there is no stud > where she wants the clock. > > I'm thinking to put a "molly" type anchor in the wall, and let it's bolt > protrude to form a hook (the back wall of the clock is about 3/8" thick), > but thought I would ask if anyone has a better suggestion. > Molly bolt is probably the best for hanging things onto drywall, if you can't anchor it. Far superior than toggle bolts or screw in anchors. Suggestion: predrill and liberally coat the sides of the hole with glue, white or wood glue, before inserting the bolt. The glue will soak into the gypsum firming it up and form a skin that binds with the front and back paper of the drywall. Also don't let the bolt protrude, but rather use it to mount a hook. If the bolt is not tightened the "wings" can loosen over time. If you're still concerned that a single bolt is not enough, you can hang a thin sheet of plywood, smaller than the clock, with a molly in each corner, then hang the clock on the plywood. > TIA > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Feb 6 19:17:24 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:17:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <4B6DFBC2.4090805@verizon.net> References: <6093BAFB1FCB4E76921162574D5626F5@Digilink1><4B6AF2BB.6000101@milleredp.com><464B8556A1034E77B69983A05763A16E@behavioral.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E0B90A@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><4B228DA4B1AF455E8D3643CDE9C0DAEE@behavioral.com><4B6C7603.8010700@verizon.net> <4B6CAFFC.4030909@gmail.com> <4B6DFBC2.4090805@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7FA88DF58296495C90F0F554D52BBBC4@EricJRussellPC> Since we're drifting off topic I've decided to chime in. I've driven lots of gasoline engined vehicles and some diesel engined vehicles. Although not exactly apples to apples I can compare a gas engine 3/4 ton pick up w manual transmission & gas engine (Chevy C-20) to a 3/4 ton pick up w manual transmission & diesel engine (Ford F250). The gas engine pick ups have much more 'engine braking'. When I first bought a diesel engined pick up (83 Ford F-250) I wondered if something was wrong because it didn't slow down as much as I expected when I'd let off the 'throttle'* or down shifted. * A gas engine is throttled. Closing the throttle causes the intake vacuum to rise and the braking effect is the engine working against the vacuum. A diesel engine does not have a throttle. The intake is wide open. The 'throttle' pedal actually varies how much fuel is injected. Taking your foot off the pedal merely reduces/stops fuel injection. The intake remains wide open (no intake vacuum) **unless** the engine is equipped with a 'Jake's Brake'. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake In a gasoline engine, some engine braking is provided during closed-throttle operation due to the work required to maintain intake manifold vacuum, the balance coming from internal friction of the engine itself. Diesel engines, however, do not throttle air intake and hence do not provide engine braking from throttling losses. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan" > You're right, it's not 100% and 0%. There is some force that can go the > other way. I don't know the effectiveness ratio. I do know it's not > much. I've never driven a gasoline engined vehicle that had much engine > braking, even with a manual transmission. The engine is way too low in > compression to give much. A diesel, yes. That's a different critter. From eric at megageek.com Sat Feb 6 19:27:04 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 06:57:04 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: Randall, I would make a nice "back plate" that was bolted to the two nearest studs and mount the clock to that. Maybe something out of 3/4 plywood that you finish with matching veneer, or a few pieces of nice oak planks. This way it would be as secure as it needed to be. I think ANY molly bolt in dry wall would weaken after a few years of daily vibration from winding it. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "Randall" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 02/07/2010 04:33 To "Shop-Talk" cc Subject [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock Hey all, Wife has a big antique cuckoo clock that she would like hung "right there" on the drywall. This thing must weigh 30 pounds, plus every day someone has to pull on the chains to wind it up and of course we also live in an earthquake zone. She would really hate for it to come crashing down (it's supposedly over 100 years old and has some really fragile gingerbread, stag horns, etc.). If I had my druthers, I'd put a screw into a stud, but alas there is no stud where she wants the clock. I'm thinking to put a "molly" type anchor in the wall, and let it's bolt protrude to form a hook (the back wall of the clock is about 3/8" thick), but thought I would ask if anyone has a better suggestion. From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sat Feb 6 20:29:30 2010 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 19:29:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] list activity Message-ID: <3A3A25298C00451481D54B7D7863279B@B50SS> Hi all, Not complaining in the least, but it seems suddenly this list has become very active. It is a good thing... best, shook ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XLH 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van From racertod at racertodd.com Sat Feb 6 20:19:59 2010 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:19:59 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... In-Reply-To: <4B6DFC7E.3000308@verizon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205162739.00c5b6e8@mail.blarg.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20100205162739.00c5b6e8@mail.blarg.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100206191003.00bddcd8@mail.blarg.net> Nolan wrote: >Really? Now that's interesting. A friend has gasoline Jetta that >definitely does not. As evidenced by the power braking antics one can do >with it. It's about an 06. I wonder why the difference. I broke out my repair manual. Looks like in A4 chassis cars (99.5-06 Golf, 99.5-05 Jetta) only the 2.0 liter gasser has a cable, the other engines use DBW. A '06 Jetta is the newer A5 chassis with different engines, the engine in your friends Jetta may use a cable or has different software in the ECU that doesn't include the brake override feature. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 230,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From mg_garage at comcast.net Sun Feb 7 03:55:37 2010 From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 05:55:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] An off shoot of the Toyota debacle..... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205162739.00c5b6e8@mail.blarg.net> <4B6DFC7E.3000308@verizon.net> Message-ID: <85A7FE1FC48E4ABDA60B7A70A87240C6@stargate> My '03 Audi A6 has the brake override. Touch the brake and you lose all throttle. Gordie > Really? Now that's interesting. A friend has gasoline Jetta that > definitely does not. As evidenced by the power braking antics one can do > with it. It's about an 06. I wonder why the difference. >> >> I've verified today that my '01 Golf TDI, with drive-by-wire >> throttle, has the brake override the throttle. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4843 (20100207) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com From lane495 at nctc.com Sun Feb 7 04:17:49 2010 From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 05:17:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <931E545A8AE44B5590EA56E45F100EE4@osiris> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" > Hey all, > > Wife has a big antique cuckoo clock that she would like hung "right there" > on the drywall. . . . You do realize that once you get this thing "right" where she wants it, she will decide she would rather have it over "there", right? :o) Been there, done that . . . nature of the beast. Patricia From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Feb 7 07:04:27 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 06:04:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <931E545A8AE44B5590EA56E45F100EE4@osiris> Message-ID: > You do realize that once you get this thing "right" where she > wants it, she > will decide she would rather have it over "there", right? :o) Yes, of course. In fact, it was previously mounted over a stud, but the Feng Shui wasn't right or something (Actually, it probably was too close to an outside door for comfort.) Thanks to all for the suggestions. Randall From strovato at optonline.net Sun Feb 7 10:03:11 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:03:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <0KXH00DOXE35NR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I am probably stating the obvious, but if you lift the weight with one hand while pulling the chain with the other, it is a lot easier on both the clock mechanism and whatever is holding the clock to the wall. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 04:27 PM 2/6/2010, Randall wrote: >This thing must weigh 30 pounds, plus every day someone has >to pull on the chains to wind it up and of course we also live in an >earthquake zone. From mark at bradakis.com Sun Feb 7 13:11:32 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 13:11:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] list activity In-Reply-To: <3A3A25298C00451481D54B7D7863279B@B50SS> References: <3A3A25298C00451481D54B7D7863279B@B50SS> Message-ID: <4B6F1E74.9090604@bradakis.com> > Not complaining in the least, but it seems suddenly this list has > become very active. It is a good thing.. Yes, it has been interesting the last little while. For a while there yesterday there was quite a lengthy delay in getting messages through the server, I'm looking into it. And on a side note I still have a few thank you messages to those who have recently contributed. Maybe later this afternoon, if there's nothing on TV ;-) mjb. From jibjib at att.net Sun Feb 7 13:26:26 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 12:26:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: Something that "valuable", I'd cut the sheetrock out between two studs, add some plywood (1/8 - 1/16th thinner than the rock), anchored directly into the studs, then skim over the plywood with real plaster. You can then screw mounts directly in to plywood. Weight and quake proofed pretty well. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:27 PM To: Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock Hey all, Wife has a big antique cuckoo clock that she would like hung "right there" on the drywall. This thing must weigh 30 pounds, plus every day someone has to pull on the chains to wind it up and of course we also live in an earthquake zone. She would really hate for it to come crashing down (it's supposedly over 100 years old and has some really fragile gingerbread, stag horns, etc.). If I had my druthers, I'd put a screw into a stud, but alas there is no stud where she wants the clock. I'm thinking to put a "molly" type anchor in the wall, and let it's bolt protrude to form a hook (the back wall of the clock is about 3/8" thick), but thought I would ask if anyone has a better suggestion. TIA -- Randall Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From pj_thomas at comcast.net Sun Feb 7 17:05:57 2010 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:05:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <11.46.28245.38B2F6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <11.46.28245.38B2F6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B6F5565.5000102@comcast.net> On 2/7/2010 4:07 PM, Randall wrote: > > >> Suggestion: predrill and liberally coat the sides of the hole >> with glue, >> white or wood glue, before inserting the bolt. The glue will >> soak into >> the gypsum firming it up and form a skin that binds with the >> front and >> back paper of the drywall. >> > Good idea! I will do that. > I always use glue when screwing into wood. The threads cut up and compress the wood fibers. The glue soaks in and "fixes" the hole. This is especially useful with particle board/MDF book shelves (and solid wood also). > > I'm going to give the single molly a try (with your changes), as I've hung > some other cuckoo clocks on mollys and they seem to do OK even through a > minor tremor. > I think you'll be fine with a single molly. Drywall is stronger than many give credit, it just doesn't hold a screw very well because it crumbles. That's where the glue comes in. > Don't really want a visible "back board", but I could do something like that > with steel (painted to match the wall); or, as someone already suggested, > cut away the drywall and bury some plywood between studs. But hopefully I > don't need to go that far. > > Thanks, > Randall From rbeels at yahoo.com Sun Feb 7 19:08:48 2010 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 21:08:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] under lift lighting In-Reply-To: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> References: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20100207210308.05c04070@yahoo.com> Go here (you too, Moose): http://s395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/beelsr/under-lift lights/ It's 2 4 ft florescent light fixtures, bulbs mounted in plastic sleeves in case someone gets stupid with them. The only thing to look out for is to not lower the car with the lights still in place. :-O At 02-05-2010 at 14:44, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Phil Nase's keyboard and said: >I have a four post lift in the garage. Has anyone found a solution for >providing good lighting under the lift? Cheers! From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Feb 8 11:10:19 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:10:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <0KXH00DOXE35NR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> <0KXH00DOXE35NR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: > if you lift the weight > with one hand while pulling the chain with the other, The 'expert' told my wife not to do that, as it could allow the chains to come off the sprockets inside the clock. I think she even derailed a chain, by trying to wind it without the weight on the end. But either way, I want the mount to be able to handle "worst case". The weights are fairly light anyway (this is only a 1-day clock), I'm more concerned about the tugging every day not loosening the mount over time. As it happened, HD didn't have the molly I wanted, so I wound up going with a new fangled toggle bolt thing they claim can hold up to 100 pounds, plus a hook. Don't have the clock up yet, but the hook seems really solid. Thanks again to all that responded. -- Randall From jszwed at energykinetics.com Mon Feb 8 12:03:59 2010 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 14:03:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall Message-ID: With all the discussion on the Toyota recall, I thought some of you might find this article interesting about a local guy who managed to drive his 2007 Avalon to the dealer while the throttle was stuck. http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/hunterdon-county/express-times/index.ssf/201 0/01/recalled_toyota_owners_acceler.html Joe From strovato at optonline.net Mon Feb 8 13:21:23 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:21:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> <0KXH00DOXE35NR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0KXJ00C2BHXI9WI0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> OK, well, I'm no expert. It just feels like I'm being gentler on the parts by supporting the weight. I can see his point, though. -Steve At 01:10 PM 2/8/2010, Randall wrote: >The 'expert' told my wife not to do that, as it could allow the chains to >come off the sprockets inside the clock. I think she even derailed a chain, >by trying to wind it without the weight on the end. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 14:04:00 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:04:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] under lift lighting In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20100207210308.05c04070@yahoo.com> References: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20100207210308.05c04070@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002081304k68adb976g2fcc43211624a644@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Richard Beels wrote: > Go here (you too, Moose): > http://s395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/beelsr/under-lift lights/ > 404. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Feb 8 15:16:30 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 14:16:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2535A92460D34854BDED06630B0DD9FE@jdnet.deere.com> > With all the discussion on the Toyota recall, I thought some > of you might find this article interesting Indeed, that is interesting. Thanks, Joe. I find it particularly amazing that the dealer gave him back the car, without ever identifying the root cause. I would have thought they would have kept the car, still running (as long as it would run) while the factory experts flew in to examine the problem first-hand. Giving the owner another 2007 model would have been a small price to pay for a first-hand glimpse of the bug in-situ. But perhaps letting the press catch a glimpse of the car, engine racing, throttle not held down by floor mats or friction, would have out-weighed any benefit of actually finding the problem. Or maybe they just don't understand the nature of embedded software bugs. Real-time code is fraught with hazards along the lines of "what if this event happens between those two lines of code" and we are long since past the point where it can be exhaustively tested in any reasonable length of time. Oddly enough, I'm currently working on some embedded code that has been "working in the field for years" and finding lots of uninitialized variables, race conditions and so on. Very likely it didn't work for about the same percentage of people that are finding Toyota problems, but fortunately it couldn't kill anyone. About the worst that could happen is the equivalent of your cell phone dropping the connection for no apparent reason ... -- Randall From racertod at racertodd.com Mon Feb 8 15:57:05 2010 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:57:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] under lift lighting In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002081304k68adb976g2fcc43211624a644@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20100207210308.05c04070@yahoo.com> <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20100207210308.05c04070@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100208145558.00bd1388@mail.blarg.net> David wrote: > > Go here (you too, Moose): > > http://s395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/beelsr/under-lift lights/ The HTML link didn't include the whole address. Try this: Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 230,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From parkanzky at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 16:04:45 2010 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:04:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] under lift lighting In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002081304k68adb976g2fcc43211624a644@mail.gmail.com> References: <0DB287D7-855E-441F-BB76-34E705AE6866@verizon.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20100207210308.05c04070@yahoo.com> <2400a5d41002081304k68adb976g2fcc43211624a644@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Try: http://s395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/beelsr/under-lift%20lights/ -Paul On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 4:04 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Richard Beels wrote: > >> Go here (you too, Moose): >> http://s395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/beelsr/under-lift lights/ >> > > 404. > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > ______________________ From eric at megageek.com Mon Feb 8 18:09:35 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 05:39:35 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, thanks for that link. That dealership is only about a mile from my house!!! Talk about hitting home (when I am home.) One of my tenants works at that dealership. I'm going to ask him for more information on this. Thanks again. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson "Joe Szwed" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 02/09/2010 01:37 To cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall With all the discussion on the Toyota recall, I thought some of you might find this article interesting about a local guy who managed to drive his 2007 Avalon to the dealer while the throttle was stuck. http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/hunterdon-county/express-times/index.ssf/201 0/01/recalled_toyota_owners_acceler.html Joe From kennedybc at comcast.net Thu Feb 11 12:33:55 2010 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:33:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winding clocks with pull chains Message-ID: Some time ago, someone suggested lifting the weight when you pull the chain. Our clock repairman was by today and he said don9t do it. The clocks are designed to handle the load and he9s seen many cases where the chain got tangled up and caused problems. Brian K From strovato at optonline.net Thu Feb 11 14:34:16 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:34:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winding clocks with pull chains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0KXP0058C59NW171@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yes, I am the guilty party. I would defer to the expert. It just seemed like it made sense at the time. I did a quick search and I found "experts" who are in both camps. One site, www.cuckookingdom.com says to pull on the chain, but "If the clock has an 8 day movement please, gently lift up on the weight while pulling the opposite end of the chain". This seems to be a common theme, but I don't understand why the 8 day variety is handled differently. Another guy says you should "steady the clock with your other hand". I guess that's one way to go if you're not too confident in your hanger. And then there's the whole subject of moving the hands to set the clock. Only clockwise? Doesn't matter? This guy, http://bpic.co.uk/articles/cuckoo.htm, even says to only move them counter-clockwise. The whole thing is enough to drive you cuckoo. Sorry. Sometimes I just can't help myself. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 02:33 PM 2/11/2010, Brian C Kennedy wrote: >Some time ago, someone suggested lifting the weight when you pull the chain. >Our clock repairman was by today and he said don9t do it. The clocks are >designed to handle the load and he9s seen many cases where the chain got >tangled up and caused problems. > >Brian K >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Suggested annual donation $12.96 > >You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive From jdinnis at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 14:46:52 2010 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:46:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winding clocks with pull chains In-Reply-To: <0KXP0058C59NW171@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0KXP0058C59NW171@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On the moving of the hands, I know it varies by the design of the movement. For example the instruistions that came with out Seth Thomas (circa 1911) state that the hands are ONLY to be moved counter clockwise. But the 2000 Howar Miller that we have gives specific prcedures for bot clockwise and counter clockwise. On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > Yes, I am the guilty party. I would defer to the expert. It just seemed > like it made sense at the time. I did a quick search and I found "experts" > who are in both camps. One site, www.cuckookingdom.com says to pull on the > chain, but "If the clock has an 8 day movement please, gently lift up on the > weight while pulling the opposite end of the chain". This seems to be a > common theme, but I don't understand why the 8 day variety is handled > differently. Another guy says you should "steady the clock with your other > hand". I guess that's one way to go if you're not too confident in your > hanger. And then there's the whole subject of moving the hands to set the > clock. Only clockwise? Doesn't matter? This guy, > http://bpic.co.uk/articles/cuckoo.htm, even says to only move them > counter-clockwise. The whole thing is enough to drive you cuckoo. Sorry. > Sometimes I just can't help myself. > > -Steve Trovato > strovato at optonline.net > > > At 02:33 PM 2/11/2010, Brian C Kennedy wrote: >> >> Some time ago, someone suggested lifting the weight when you pull the >> chain. >> Our clock repairman was by today and he said don9t do it. The clocks are >> designed to handle the load and he9s seen many cases where the chain got >> tangled up and caused problems. >> >> Brian K >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> >> You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 11 15:22:50 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:22:50 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winding clocks with pull chains In-Reply-To: References: <0KXP0058C59NW171@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <64547F5F762B4E80BCFFB3D46EC0B81D@jdnet.deere.com> > For example the instruistions that came with > out Seth Thomas (circa 1911) state that the hands are ONLY to > be moved counter clockwise. Really? Dad had some old Seth Thomas clocks (not sure of the exact vintage, but pre-WWI) and they would jam if you turned the hands backwards. It also got the chime counter out of sync if you went forward too fast. The proper procedure AFAIK was to turn forward until the chimes were tripped, then wait for the chimes to finish before turning any further. The wife's antique cuckoo clock is the same way, when changing the time you must have the cuckoo weight in place and let it cuckoo at each interval before moving on. I think the newer ones don't require the pauses, but still want to be turned forward. But no doubt it varies from clock to clock. > but I don't understand why the 8 day variety is > > handled differently. My understanding is that 8-day movements use heavier weights, so the weight is more of an issue. Probably they also tend to be newer movements, which may translate to better chain handling (less likely to jump the sprockets) inside. -- Randall From shochschild at att.net Thu Feb 11 15:40:06 2010 From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:40:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winding clocks with pull chains In-Reply-To: <64547F5F762B4E80BCFFB3D46EC0B81D@jdnet.deere.com> References: <0KXP0058C59NW171@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <64547F5F762B4E80BCFFB3D46EC0B81D@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <4B748746.804@att.net> It's not that the weight is heavier, it is that the gearing is taller by 8x as compared to the daily winder... > My understanding is that 8-day movements use heavier weights, so the weight > is more of an issue. Probably they also tend to be newer movements, which > may translate to better chain handling (less likely to jump the sprockets) > inside. > > -- Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 11 15:46:43 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:46:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winding clocks with pull chains In-Reply-To: <4B748746.804@att.net> References: <0KXP0058C59NW171@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><64547F5F762B4E80BCFFB3D46EC0B81D@jdnet.deere.com> <4B748746.804@att.net> Message-ID: > It's not that the weight is heavier, it is that the gearing > is taller by 8x as compared to the daily winder... So why would that have anything to do with winding? I assume the one-way clutch is before any gearing ... On the wife's clocks it's built right into the sprocket. -- Randall From rs1121 at earthlink.net Fri Feb 12 09:15:59 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:15:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Winding clocks with pull chains In-Reply-To: References: <0KXP0058C59NW171@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><64547F5F762B4E80BCFFB3D46EC0B81D@jdnet.deere.com> <4B748746.804@att.net> Message-ID: <019601caabfe$aa67e960$ff37bc20$@net> Or you can just do what my dad does - He made the chain into a long loop then just moves the weight up the chain every few days From mark at bradakis.com Fri Feb 12 19:09:46 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:09:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Just checking Message-ID: <4B7609EA.3080300@bradakis.com> Looking at the posting delay issue, ignore this message. mjb. From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Fri Feb 12 19:42:47 2010 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:42:47 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Just checking In-Reply-To: <4B7609EA.3080300@bradakis.com> References: <4B7609EA.3080300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: What message? %^) Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:09:46 -0700 > From: mark at bradakis.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Just checking > > Looking at the posting delay issue, ignore this message. > > mjb. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 20:49:46 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:49:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Just checking In-Reply-To: <4B7609EA.3080300@bradakis.com> References: <4B7609EA.3080300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002121949t40b02eb7xd2f5203e11b26b83@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:09 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > Looking at the posting delay issue, ignore this message. > > > Check your clocks. The message travvelled backwards in time. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From shop at justbrits.com Sun Feb 14 18:00:46 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:00:46 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [Mgs] Article You MIght Find Interesting] Message-ID: <4B789CBE.2060909@justbrits.com> >From the MGs List and really kewl !!!! And 'applies' to ALL of us !! LOL ******************************************************************** Read this in the Reno Gazette Journal and it struck home! Frank K. http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201002130600/COL31/2130326 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/archive From bspidell at comcast.net Sun Feb 14 18:54:48 2010 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:54:48 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [Mgs] Article You MIght Find Interesting] In-Reply-To: <4B789CBE.2060909@justbrits.com> References: <4B789CBE.2060909@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <4B78A968.6050401@comcast.net> From the author: "Imagine if they could make a car with all the fun of my old MG and the reliability of my new Toyota. Now that would be some car." Guess he never heard of a Miata/MX-5. Must live in a cave or something. bs Shop at " Just Brits " wrote: >> From the MGs List and really kewl !!!! > And 'applies' to ALL of us !! LOL > ******************************************************************** > > Read this in the Reno Gazette Journal and it struck home! > Frank K. > > http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201002130600/COL31/2130326 ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From kennedybc at comcast.net Sun Feb 14 19:27:49 2010 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:27:49 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [Mgs] Article You MIght Find Interesting] In-Reply-To: <4B78A968.6050401@comcast.net> Message-ID: I've never driven a Miata, but I have a friend who juiced his up to 300hp with all the suspension tweaks and took me for a ride on LA freeways. Scary. Another friend has a supercharged Mini that I did drive. That is a really fun car. Brian K. On 2/14/10 5:54 PM, "Bob Spidell" wrote: > From the author: > > "Imagine if they could make a car with all the fun of my old MG and the > reliability of my new Toyota. Now that would be > some car." > > > Guess he never heard of a Miata/MX-5. Must live in a cave or something. > > > bs > > > Shop at " Just Brits " wrote: >>> From the MGs List and really kewl !!!! >> And 'applies' to ALL of us !! LOL >> ******************************************************************** >> >> Read this in the Reno Gazette Journal and it struck home! >> Frank K. >> >> http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201002130600/COL31/2130326 > > ******************************************************************* > Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net > > ******************************************************************* > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as kennedybc at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive -- Brian C. Kennedy Cell 734 649 8548 2711 N. Maple Road Home 734 994 5205 Ann Arbor, MI 48103 Fax 734 661 5108 Email kennedybc at comcast.net From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 20:10:14 2010 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 21:10:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [Mgs] Article You MIght Find Interesting] In-Reply-To: <4B78A968.6050401@comcast.net> References: <4B789CBE.2060909@justbrits.com>,<4B78A968.6050401@comcast.net> Message-ID: +1 for the Miata which has been my daily driver year around for the last three years! Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:54:48 -0800 > From: bspidell at comcast.net > To: shop at justbrits.com > CC: Midgetsprite at yahoogroups.com; Sprite-MidgetClub at yahoogroups.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net; BugeyeSprites at yahoogroups.com; bugeye at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [Mgs] Article You MIght Find Interesting] > > From the author: > > "Imagine if they could make a car with all the fun of my old MG and the reliability of my new Toyota. Now that would be > some car." > > > Guess he never heard of a Miata/MX-5. Must live in a cave or something. > > > bs > > > Shop at " Just Brits " wrote: > >> From the MGs List and really kewl !!!! > > And 'applies' to ALL of us !! LOL > > ******************************************************************** > > > > Read this in the Reno Gazette Journal and it struck home! > > Frank K. > > > > http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201002130600/COL31/2130326 > > ******************************************************************* > Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net > > ******************************************************************* > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Feb 14 20:38:50 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:38:50 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [Mgs] Article You MIght Find Interesting] In-Reply-To: References: <4B789CBE.2060909@justbrits.com>,<4B78A968.6050401@comcast.net> Message-ID: > +1 for the Miata which has been my daily driver Wait til you drive that TR3B. If it isn't hands-down more fun than a Miata, you're not doing it right! Randall From shop at justbrits.com Sun Feb 14 21:35:28 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:35:28 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [_gs] Article You MIght Find Interesting] In-Reply-To: References: <4B789CBE.2060909@justbrits.com>,<4B78A968.6050401@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B78CF10.50606@justbrits.com> << If it isn't hands-down more fun than a Miata, >> My Camino is MORE fun then a M----, Randall !!!! Ed PS: And so is my AH BJ-7 and Wife's '73 Black .........Tulip MGB !!! Even her '96 Malibu Maxx is !! From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Mon Feb 15 09:07:31 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:07:31 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: <2535A92460D34854BDED06630B0DD9FE@jdnet.deere.com> References: <2535A92460D34854BDED06630B0DD9FE@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66423@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> > Or maybe they just don't understand the nature of embedded software > bugs. Real-time code is fraught with hazards along the lines of > "what if this event happens between those two lines of code" and > we are long since past the point where it can be exhaustively > tested in any reasonable length of time. I once had some real-time software that I wrote that passed all testing and was in production for nearly a year before it started crashing. It took me two months to find the problem (mostly to be able to reproduce the "random" failure. It all involved a subtle timing issue between two events. Two lines of code fixed the problem and it worked flawlessly for years after that. But in my case, the worst that happened was a hung database.. Tim Mullen From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Mon Feb 15 09:09:17 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:09:17 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <4B6E1018.3030004@earthlink.net> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> <4B6E1018.3030004@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66429@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> > I've had good luck with the screw in plastic anchors like # 892428 at > Home Depot. This link may get you there. > Http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?produc tId=100165900 I've hung some very heavy items on walls using those plastic (or the metal version) screw in anchors. They work extremely well. Tim Mullen From chad at linuxeg.com Mon Feb 15 10:08:05 2010 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:08:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Recall In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66423@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <2535A92460D34854BDED06630B0DD9FE@jdnet.deere.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66423@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <4B797F75.3010902@linuxeg.com> Google "Airbus fly by wire crash" for some interesting reading. chad "In the time of universal deciete telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell From shop at justbrits.com Mon Feb 15 10:31:06 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:31:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66429@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> <4B6E1018.3030004@earthlink.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66429@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <4B7984DA.3020009@justbrits.com> << This link may get you there. >> Nope. blank page. I even tried making the link a tinyurl [ as MOST of you that send LONG URLs SHOULD do] and because the 'long' link did NOT work, neither did the 'tiny' one !?! From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Feb 15 12:46:39 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:46:39 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <4B7984DA.3020009@justbrits.com> References: <57.FA.27681.8AEDD6B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com><4B6E1018.3030004@earthlink.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66429@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <4B7984DA.3020009@justbrits.com> Message-ID: > << This link may get you there. >> > > Nope. blank page. Try this one: http://tinyurl.com/ybd3xy8 FWIW, I wound up going with a combination product, which is a metal screw-in anchor combined with a toggle bolt, advertised to hold 100 pounds. http://tinyurl.com/yb893s9 I'm quite familiar with the plastic ones, as I installed several hundred of them at a previous job to anchor white boards and network gear, etc. Just didn't feel they were enough in this case. And yes, I like to over-engineer things -- Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Feb 15 14:43:24 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:43:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703E66429@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <490117.48207.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I agree, that type of anchor is very handy. Doug --- On Mon, 2/15/10, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote: > From: Mullen, Tim (IS) > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Hanging a Cuckoo clock > To: "Brian Kemp" , "Randall" > Cc: "Shop-Talk" > Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 11:09 AM > > I've had good luck with the > screw in plastic anchors like # 892428 at > > Home Depot. This link may get you there. > > > Http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=1 00165900 From nogera2 at att.net Tue Feb 16 08:17:57 2010 From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:17:57 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries Message-ID: Around my house the universal solution when a electronic devise fails to work is " Batteries are dead". They then go to the draw where I keep a supply of batteries and replace the batteries, throwing the old batteries in the draw. When the devise still fails to work they seek me out saying it is broken. I usually respond with something like, 'Did you turn the power switch to ON?' Problem solved. The result of this is I have a draw full of batteries that may or may not be used up. I have a multi meter and can check them for voltage but can I assume that if the voltage is 1.5 that the battery has a lot of life left in it? Also at what point would you say a battery is borderline and toss it? Bob From opposumking at verizon.net Tue Feb 16 08:25:46 2010 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:25:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries References: Message-ID: I bought a cheap universal battery tester from RadioShack some years ago. Cost something like $3. Answers all those questions. Wonderfull tool to have in that drawer. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:17 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries > I have a multi meter and can check them for voltage but can I assume that > if > the voltage is 1.5 that the battery has a lot of life left in it? Also > at > what point would you say a battery is borderline and toss it? From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Feb 16 08:45:22 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:45:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <103820.32415.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The lower voltage limit really depends on what sort of load the battery is expected to supply. An almost-dead battery might work fine for something like a TV remote, but be useless in a flashlight or digital camera. That said, I toss any battery with a voltage less than 1.3 Maybe you should set aside the "dubious" batteries for things you don't care much about, or that the kids will just leave on anyway? Also, it is interesting to compare the voltages of every battery in one device. Ideally they should decay the same. If you find that one battery is totally gone while others are still OK, that suggest poor quality control by the manufacturer (or that you mixed cells bought at different times, or mixed new and used cells). It would not be smart to throw all your newly-purchased batteries in a heap. Instead, try to use only cells from the same package in one device. Doug --- On Tue, 2/16/10, nogera2 at att.net wrote: > From: nogera2 at att.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries > To: "Shop Talk" > Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 10:17 AM > Around my house the universal > solution when a electronic devise fails to > work is " Batteries are dead". They then go to the > draw where I keep a > supply of batteries and replace the batteries, throwing the > old batteries in > the draw. > When the devise still fails to work they seek me out saying > it is broken. I > usually respond with something like, 'Did you turn the > power switch to ON?' > Problem solved. > > The result of this is I have a draw full of batteries that > may or may not be > used up. > I have a multi meter and can check them for voltage but can > I assume that if > the voltage is 1.5 that the battery has a lot of life left > in it? Also at > what point would you say a battery is borderline and toss > it? > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Feb 16 09:25:22 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:25:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7AC6F2.9070600@xxiii.com> On 2/16/2010 10:17 AM, nogera2 at att.net wrote: > I have a multi meter and can check them for voltage but can I assume that if > the voltage is 1.5 that the battery has a lot of life left in it? Also at > what point would you say a battery is borderline and toss it? You have to have a load on the battery to accurately measure if its output voltage is in range. Unfortunately I don't know what's typical output current for standard cells. If an AA is supposed to be good for 100mA, you just work V/A = R (1.5v / 0.1A = 10ohms) and select a resistor to stick across it while you measure the voltage. Off-the-shelf testers will have appropriate loads fro each cell type built in. Or you measure the voltage with them installed in the device and powered on, asuming you can probe the terminals in the device. -Wayne From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Feb 16 21:09:05 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:09:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a multi meter and can check them for voltage but can I assume that > if the voltage is 1.5 that the battery has a lot of life left in it? IMO, 1.5 with no load is about the lower limit to call a battery "nearly new". And at 1.4 I just pitch them. As someone said, you could try to squeeze a little more life out in a low current device like the TV remote, but I find it frustrating when the remote becomes intermittent (due to low batteries) and IMO it's not worth the hassle. BTW, my solution to the 'drawer' problem was to keep the batteries locked up and dole them out as needed. Only way I could keep both fresh batteries and a teenage daughter in the same house! Randall From rbeels at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 10:27:35 2010 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:27:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dry Cell Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20100218122459.0572d008@yahoo.com> If you want a real battery tester, get a ZTS one. It puts a load on the battery and gives a real measure of capacity. ztsinc.com I have an mtb-1 that stays in the "battery drawer" and a mini that lives in my main camera bag. At 02-16-2010 at 10:17, Shakespearean monkeys danced on nogera2 at att.net's keyboard and said: >Around my house the universal solution when a electronic devise fails to >work is " Batteries are dead". They then go to the draw where I keep a >supply of batteries and replace the batteries, throwing the old batteries in >the draw. >When the devise still fails to work they seek me out saying it is broken. I >usually respond with something like, 'Did you turn the power switch to ON?' >Problem solved. > >The result of this is I have a draw full of batteries that may or may not be >used up. >I have a multi meter and can check them for voltage but can I assume that if >the voltage is 1.5 that the battery has a lot of life left in it? Also at >what point would you say a battery is borderline and toss it? Cheers! From marka at maracing.com Thu Feb 18 20:51:12 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:51:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw Message-ID: Howdy, Ok, I've been sorting out my nuts and bolts. What can I say, I'm an exciting person. However, I've run across a mystery bolt. Its got 32 tpi, but the diameter (thread peak to peak) is ~0.147". That's too big for a 6-32 (max is 0.137) and not big enough for 8-32 (min is 0.157). Did they make a 7-32 thread? Its possible its metric (though the 32 thread guage fits really well) I suppose, but the common sizes in that range are 3.5x0.6 (diameter converts to 0.138") or 4x.7 (diameter converts to 0.157"). This make sense to anyone? Mark From mikey at b2systems.com Thu Feb 18 21:37:54 2010 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:37:54 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7E15A2.4000403@b2systems.com> Witworth metric or BSF (British Standard Fine) ? mike Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Ok, I've been sorting out my nuts and bolts. > > What can I say, I'm an exciting person. > > However, I've run across a mystery bolt. Its got 32 tpi, but the > diameter (thread peak to peak) is ~0.147". That's too big for a 6-32 > (max is 0.137) and not big enough for 8-32 (min is 0.157). > > Did they make a 7-32 thread? > > Its possible its metric (though the 32 thread guage fits really well) > I suppose, but the common sizes in that range are 3.5x0.6 (diameter > converts to 0.138") or 4x.7 (diameter converts to 0.157"). > > This make sense to anyone? > > Mark From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 21:45:22 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:45:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d41002182045l3153f346l3ca093e8f870504b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Ok, I've been sorting out my nuts and bolts. > > What can I say, I'm an exciting person. > > However, I've run across a mystery bolt. Its got 32 tpi, but the diameter > (thread peak to peak) is ~0.147". That's too big for a 6-32 (max is 0.137) > and not big enough for 8-32 (min is 0.157). > > Did they make a 7-32 thread? > > Its possible its metric (though the 32 thread guage fits really well) I > suppose, but the common sizes in that range are 3.5x0.6 (diameter converts > to 0.138") or 4x.7 (diameter converts to 0.157"). > > This make sense to anyone? > > Exciting! A mystery Screw! Well, to you. To me, it's just a 3/16 BSF. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From marka at maracing.com Thu Feb 18 22:10:28 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:10:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002182045l3153f346l3ca093e8f870504b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d41002182045l3153f346l3ca093e8f870504b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, David Scheidt wrote: >> However, I've run across a mystery bolt. Its got 32 tpi, but the diameter >> (thread peak to peak) is ~0.147". That's too big for a 6-32 (max is 0.137) >> and not big enough for 8-32 (min is 0.157). ... > Well, to you. To me, it's just a 3/16 BSF. Wouldn't the diameter of that be 0.188"? Mark From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Feb 18 23:04:49 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:04:49 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002182045l3153f346l3ca093e8f870504b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20.14.04431.00A2E7B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> > Well, to you. To me, it's just a 3/16 BSF. Nope, too big. 3/16 BSF is even larger than #8. However, the Maryland Metrics site does list a 5/32 BSW that is pretty close. http://mdmetric.com/tech/tict.htm Randall From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Fri Feb 19 04:45:24 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:45:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <076348DA181A4BC487E74EBB9482B3B1@Digilink1> Are you likely to have any parts from a pre 1960 British car in your loose screw can? It might be Whitworth.(though I've never seen any very small Whitworth screws myself) Even in the early 60's there was a Whitworth thread hidden in most British cars.....it was the on the screw lug on the starter. It required a Whitworth nut to fit it properly. Legend has it that a supply of these lugs and nuts were discovered in a bombed out factory in France after the war and Lucas bought the lot and continued to use them on their starters until they exhausted the supply......One more reason to curse Lucas, The Prince of Darkness... From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 06:25:16 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:25:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <076348DA181A4BC487E74EBB9482B3B1@Digilink1> References: <076348DA181A4BC487E74EBB9482B3B1@Digilink1> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002190525r2ccac93au815d586f8485bb1f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 6:45 AM, Gerald Brazil wrote: > Are you likely to have any parts from a pre 1960 British car in your loose > screw can? It might be Whitworth.(though I've never seen any very small > Whitworth screws myself) > > Even in the early 60's there was a Whitworth thread hidden in most British > More than that. There's nothing wrong with BS threads. In a lot of ways, they're superior to UN or SAE threads. (There are very few whitworth fasteners on any postwar automobile. The difference is one of the size of the heads (and nuts) of a given thread size. BSF threaded fasteners were always made with a head one size smaller than Whitworth fasteners (so you'd have to use a smaller wrench, and couldn't put as much torque on the fastener, largely). During the war, bolt and nut makers started making Whitworth threaded fasteners with smaller heads, as a steel saving measure. They never went back, and the practice was codified as BS 1083 in 1951. The difference between BSF and (coarse thread) whitworth is the reason that many spanners are marked with two dimensions, for example 5/16BSF 1/4W. Later tools mostly omit the reference to the whitworth size. BS threads hung on a lot later than you might think; even in *american* industry. The rounded roots and crests of Sir Joesph's threads make them more suitable for use in soft materials, and they hung on in aluminum and some cast parts until metrification. The last common use of them that I'm aware of is the thread on camera tripod fittings. Dart tips are screwed onto the body with a BA thread. cars.....it was the on the screw lug on the starter. It required a Whitworth > nut to fit it properly. Legend has it that a supply of these lugs and nuts > were discovered in a bombed out factory in France after the war and Lucas > bought the lot and continued to use them on their starters until they > exhausted the supply......One more reason to curse Lucas, The Prince of > Darkness... > \ > complete and utter malarkey. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Feb 19 09:08:40 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:08:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002190525r2ccac93au815d586f8485bb1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <076348DA181A4BC487E74EBB9482B3B1@Digilink1> <2400a5d41002190525r2ccac93au815d586f8485bb1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F050A24121540A2B9E536C658EF9B27@jdnet.deere.com> > The last common use of them that I'm > aware of is the thread on camera tripod fittings. I believe they are still in common use (although waning in favor of non-threaded 'quick' connections) on survey tripods. -- Randall From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Feb 19 09:44:36 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:44:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? Message-ID: My table saw has a base that would raise up onto a caster with a foot-operated lever, like this: http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-50-2000.html I have a plywood box motorcycle stand that I'd like to put wheels on, but only for moving around. Once the unit is in place I need to retract the wheels so it's stationary. I'm not having any luck on Google with "lever-operated caster" etc. Has anyone seen these cam-operated wheels? Ideally they'd be 6" or greater pneumatic, but once I have the lever mechanism I can adapt bigger wheels. thanks, From pethier at comcast.net Fri Feb 19 09:44:59 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:44:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002190525r2ccac93au815d586f8485bb1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >The last common use of them that I'm >aware of is the thread on camera tripod fittings. Every camera I have ever had has been 1/4-20. Phil From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Feb 19 10:06:29 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:06:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6333267FBF2C489585E6DCA6BC367E57@EricJRussellPC> http://woodworker.com/universal-mobile-base-kit-mssu-138-371.asp?search=mobile&searchmode=2Eric RussellMebane, NChttp://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell----- Original Message -----From: "Jim Franklin" To: "Shop-Talk List" Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 11:44 AMSubject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel?> Has anyone seen these cam-operated wheels? Ideally they'd be 6" or greater> pneumatic, but once I have the lever mechanism I can adapt bigger wheels. From pethier at comcast.net Fri Feb 19 10:17:21 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:17:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1706183760.5699001266599841771.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Casters with brakes are not that rare. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Jim Franklin" wrote: > From: "Jim Franklin" > To: "Shop-Talk List" > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:44:36 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? > > My table saw has a base that would raise up onto a caster with a > foot-operated > lever, like this: > > http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-50-2000.html > > I have a plywood box motorcycle stand that I'd like to put wheels on, > but only > for moving around. Once the unit is in place I need to retract the > wheels so > it's stationary. I'm not having any luck on Google with > "lever-operated > caster" etc. > > Has anyone seen these cam-operated wheels? Ideally they'd be 6" or > greater > pneumatic, but once I have the lever mechanism I can adapt bigger > wheels. > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 19 10:25:39 2010 From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:25:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <173420.2493.qm@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maybe something like this? http://www.amazon.com/PortaMate-HTC1000-Capacity-Universal-Mobile/dp/B000051W SA This one is currently out of stock but check the suggestions for similar items. Randy ________________________________ From: Jim Franklin To: Shop-Talk List Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 10:44:36 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? My table saw has a base that would raise up onto a caster with a foot-operated lever, like this: http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-50-2000.html I have a plywood box motorcycle stand that I'd like to put wheels on, but only for moving around. Once the unit is in place I need to retract the wheels so it's stationary. I'm not having any luck on Google with "lever-operated caster" etc. Has anyone seen these cam-operated wheels? Ideally they'd be 6" or greater pneumatic, but once I have the lever mechanism I can adapt bigger wheels. thanks, _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Feb 19 10:28:43 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <994895.76691.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a larger size (~8mm) that was used on older European cameras. Doug --- On Fri, 2/19/10, pethier at comcast.net wrote: > From: pethier at comcast.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw > To: "David Scheidt" > Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 11:44 AM > >The last common use of them that > I'm > >aware of is the thread on camera tripod fittings. > > Every camera I have ever had has been 1/4-20. > > Phil > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com Fri Feb 19 10:49:48 2010 From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:49:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> That was my reaction when I read this, too. I've actually used a 1/4-20 bolt (temporarily) in a tripod to retain a camera. Is the Whitworth size just really close to the UNC size, and we can get away with the mismatch? Matt On 19 Feb, 2010, at 11:44 AM, pethier at comcast.net wrote: >> The last common use of them that I'm >> aware of is the thread on camera tripod fittings. > > Every camera I have ever had has been 1/4-20. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 11:10:45 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:10:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d41002191010if9a7402ia70378c6f527d613@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > My table saw has a base that would raise up onto a caster with a > foot-operated > lever, like this: > > http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-50-2000.html > > I have a plywood box motorcycle stand that I'd like to put wheels on, but > only > for moving around. Once the unit is in place I need to retract the wheels > so > it's stationary. I'm not having any luck on Google with "lever-operated > caster" etc. > > Has anyone seen these cam-operated wheels? Ideally they'd be 6" or greater > pneumatic, but once I have the lever mechanism I can adapt bigger wheels. > > NOt the same mechanism, but look at a "roll and set" caster. They're also called "leveling casters". They've got a foot on a threaded (usually, there are other mechanism) that lifts the caster off the ground. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com Fri Feb 19 11:16:53 2010 From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:16:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> References: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> Message-ID: <60BD462C-9B14-4138-A450-9A3B96B62220@trebelhorn.com> And actually, now that I think about it, I've built a wooden camera and used a 1/4-20 tee nut as the tripod mount. Works fine with all my tripods. Matt On 19 Feb, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Matt Trebelhorn wrote: > That was my reaction when I read this, too. I've actually used a > 1/4-20 bolt (temporarily) in a tripod to retain a camera. > > Is the Whitworth size just really close to the UNC size, and we can > get away with the mismatch? > > Matt > > On 19 Feb, 2010, at 11:44 AM, pethier at comcast.net wrote: > >>> The last common use of them that I'm >>> aware of is the thread on camera tripod fittings. >> >> Every camera I have ever had has been 1/4-20. From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Feb 19 11:38:42 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:38:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62263029-3D1D-49D1-9DB2-FA2905419AB5@groupwbench.org> On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:44 AM, Jim Franklin wrote: > > I have a plywood box motorcycle stand that I'd like to put wheels on, Here's a few pics of the stand. The full time casters with brakes definitely won't work; I don't want any chance of movement while pushing a 500lb bike up the ramp. And none of the pre-formed bases will work; it absolutely needs to rest on the ground once I'm done moving it because of there's yanking and torqueing of things. Though buying one and adapting the mechanism to a wheel is certainly not out of the question... http://www.groupwbench.org/motorcycles/Bike%20stand/ A solid caster would work if my floor was concrete, but right now I have to deal with gravel & earth. jim From hillman at planet-torque.com Fri Feb 19 11:42:02 2010 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:42:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <60BD462C-9B14-4138-A450-9A3B96B62220@trebelhorn.com> References: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> <60BD462C-9B14-4138-A450-9A3B96B62220@trebelhorn.com> Message-ID: ISO-1222 specifies the connection, if anyone is really curious. Not worth $45 to me to find out, since 1/4-20 works on everything I own. For the record, most cameras have the threaded sleeve simply cast into the plastic casing. If you're, say, mounting it in a racecar and subjecting it to high stress, it will eventually crack the case and be free. Ask me I know ;) File under: Wish I knew that before it broke. -- David Hillman PS Yes, that's a big file. On Fri, 19 Feb 2010, Matt Trebelhorn wrote: > And actually, now that I think about it, I've built a wooden camera and used > a 1/4-20 tee nut as the tripod mount. > Works fine with all my tripods. > > Matt > > On 19 Feb, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Matt Trebelhorn wrote: > >> That was my reaction when I read this, too. I've actually used a 1/4-20 >> bolt (temporarily) in a tripod to retain a camera. >> >> Is the Whitworth size just really close to the UNC size, and we can get >> away with the mismatch? >> >> Matt >> >> On 19 Feb, 2010, at 11:44 AM, pethier at comcast.net wrote: >> >>>> The last common use of them that I'm >>>> aware of is the thread on camera tripod fittings. >>> >>> Every camera I have ever had has been 1/4-20. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as hillman at planet-torque.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From shop at justbrits.com Fri Feb 19 11:03:25 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:03:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7ED26D.2080000@justbrits.com> << Once the unit is in place I need to retract the wheels so it's stationary. I'm not having any luck on Google with "lever-operated caster" etc. >> Jim, try Spruce Aircraft -> Helicopters -> Skid Platforms/Dollies [over something like that. IIRC all the ones I have seen have something around 8" 'tyres'. Most 'retract' but a few only 'lock'. Ed From shop at justbrits.com Fri Feb 19 11:12:40 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:12:40 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <3F050A24121540A2B9E536C658EF9B27@jdnet.deere.com> References: <076348DA181A4BC487E74EBB9482B3B1@Digilink1> <2400a5d41002190525r2ccac93au815d586f8485bb1f@mail.gmail.com> <3F050A24121540A2B9E536C658EF9B27@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <4B7ED498.1080104@justbrits.com> From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Feb 19 12:13:10 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:13:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: <6333267FBF2C489585E6DCA6BC367E57@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <838347.85333.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is something from HF: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95288 Doug From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Feb 19 14:00:59 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:00:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: <6333267FBF2C489585E6DCA6BC367E57@EricJRussellPC> References: <6333267FBF2C489585E6DCA6BC367E57@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: Hmm, I sent this before but it came back all funny looking. Trying again: http://woodworker.com/universal-mobile-base-kit-mssu-138-371.asp?search=mobile&searchmode or http://tinyurl.com/yzuzsuo Not sure if the tires are big enough for your intended use. I have that style for tools in my garage workshop. But they are on a concrete floor. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From shop at justbrits.com Fri Feb 19 16:04:25 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:04:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> References: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> Message-ID: <4B7F18F9.5050303@justbrits.com> << I believe they are still in common use (although waning in favor of non-threaded 'quick' connections) on survey tripods. >> Unless you are as UN-lucky as me, Randall !! 2 tri-pods, 2 DIFFERENT 'plates' !! PITA !!! LOL Ed From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Feb 19 16:52:33 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:52:33 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Weird machine screw In-Reply-To: <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> References: <324961749.5680171266597899141.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <95AC84F9-1726-45A5-9979-1990CA921AAD@trebelhorn.com> Message-ID: > Is the Whitworth size just really close to the UNC size, and > we can get away with the mismatch? In this case, yes. Many (but not all) of the BSW sizes are the same thread pitch as UNC and usually (tho again not always) there is enough slop to allow the two to mix in spite of the slight differences in thread profile. For threads as small as 1/4-20, I find it hard to see the difference even with a thread gauge and a jeweler's loupe. -- Randall From cavanadd at verizon.net Fri Feb 19 20:48:28 2010 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:48:28 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lever-operated caster/wheel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7F5B8C.4030102@verizon.net> Jim, I know just what you are talking about; I have the same pedal mechanism under my Grizzly thickness planer and it's a pretty standard item under a lot of imported stationary tools. I have never seen this caster/pedal assembly sold in a catalog, but you CAN get it from Grizzly as a replacement part, "pedal assembly", Item # 549A, P/N P0453Z549A as shown here: > http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0453Z/parts/4 for $45 each. I have a (home made hydraulic) motorcycle lift table and I know EXACTLY what you mean about not moving around.... Dave Jim Franklin wrote: > My table saw has a base that would raise up onto a caster with a foot-operated > lever, like this: > > http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-50-2000.html > > I have a plywood box motorcycle stand that I'd like to put wheels on, but only > for moving around. Once the unit is in place I need to retract the wheels so > it's stationary. I'm not having any luck on Google with "lever-operated > caster" etc. > > Has anyone seen these cam-operated wheels? Ideally they'd be 6" or greater > pneumatic, but once I have the lever mechanism I can adapt bigger wheels. > > thanks, > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From jdrush at enter.net Fri Feb 19 22:34:57 2010 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:34:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205161332.00bd12a0@mail.blarg.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100205161332.00bd12a0@mail.blarg.net> Message-ID: <4B7F7481.9080201@enter.net> I know I'm a little late. I have the Socket Logic holders and they are a great idea, poorly executed. If you never intend to move your organizers they will probably work fine. But if you want to carry your sets to the work-site, the pockets are too loose and too shallow keep the sockets in place. I am always chasing loose sockets down between the other sockets. The units are also too tall and wide to be stored in most toolbox drawers. So I would recommend these for the limited use of stationary, bench-top service. They do stack nicely though. I have three and they sit on top of each other on my tool cart. The ne plus ultra of socket organizers comes from Cal-Con. They are priced to match. When I'm chasing another loose socket from my Socket Logic holders, I've daydreamed about acquiring powerful magnets with center holes, like in the Cal-Con, and hot gluing them into my Socket Logic unit. Or buying sets of these MagClips and screwing them to a board. Two of these screwed to a 1x6 with handles would be about perfect. You can interchange the center peg sizes to mix and match sockets. Hmmmmm, maybe I should start a business . . . Jon On 2/5/2010 7:26 PM, Todd Walke wrote: > Hands down the trickest socket organizer I've seen is by Socket Logic > (www.socketlogic.com). They put all sockets of each size in a column so > if you need a deep 17mm instead of a standard 17mm - it's right there in > the next slot. Clear, easy to read size labels. Has a handle so you can > lug your entire socket set around to various projects with ease. > Doesn't help organize all the extra weirdo sockets but you can put your > entire set of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2", deep and shallow sockets in one unit. > It is a bit tall (dimensions are on the site), so they may not work in > the drawers of some toolboxes. Like mine. Grrrrrrr. > Bought a set for a friend of mine for Christmas, though. They're nicely > made, look real solid - no flimsy Chinese crap. From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 09:16:36 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:16:36 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: *Obviously, everyone has an idea on socket "storage" and over 50 years, I've tried most of them. For the last 6 - 8 years, I've been happiest with this: * *I bought a huge restaurant-style muffin pan at a salvage store; the big 4 inch muffin size. I cleaned it and painted it white and labeled each of the 24 cups for a size: 3/8", 7/16", 1/2" etc., and then put all sockets of that size in the cup. I'll have 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive sockets , short and tall, ALL in the same cup in some instances and that's fine: I go to the drawer for a certain size socket and I can pick the drive size appropriate.* ** *It lacks portability but I have a "carrybox" for out-of-shop use. Metrics and "weirdos" go in another drawer.* ** *Just another concept to consider.* *Tony* * * From rs1121 at earthlink.net Sun Feb 21 13:21:19 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:21:19 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> Ah Ha - I was wondering where your nickname "muffin man" came from! C-Ya Ron From al at bighealey.org Sun Feb 21 14:26:36 2010 From: al at bighealey.org (Al Fuller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <002701cab33c$8d1984f0$a74c8ed0$@org> Well, I use the 'Lisle' style organizers for the sockets I use the most. Some are magnetic. Some aren't. I find it makes them easier to take to the car I'm working on, especially if I'm using a portable table. I also have some sockets that came from Sears in little plastic organizers, which remain in those organizers to this day. Many 'extra' sockets are either in a shallow metal tray, and old portable carrier that a socket set came in, or in the case of the extra 1/2" drive sockets- just sitting in the drawer. Pictures are here: www.bighealey.org/Sockets The absolute best thing I did was to take the time to take a permanent marker and mark the plastic holders with the socket sizes! It's a little thing, but it makes all the difference in grabbing the socket I want, when I want it instead of fumbling around for the right size. Al Fuller al at bighealey.org '62 BT-7 '65 BJ-8 '85 Rx-7 -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:02 PM To: Shop-Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers? In the ongoing quest to organize the toolboxes, I'm looking for socket organizers. The ones with a pre-determined number of 1/4", 3/8" etc posts don't work since I have lots of "extra" sockets, like 3 spark plug sockets, etc. I also don't like having to wrestle a socket off a snug post with greasy hands. I'm thinking a magnetic tray would be the most convenient, like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002STSTY/ref=asc_df_B0002STSTY1023286?smid=ATVPDK I KX0DER&tag=googlecom09c9-20&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B0002S T STY Er, try http://tinyurl.com/yzyzxu5 But that'll get pricy after a while. I also found this bargain but it's catalog only, and shipping is $7 so it's not exactly a throwaway if it's garbage. Anyone have one? From al at bighealey.org Sun Feb 21 14:39:12 2010 From: al at bighealey.org (Al Fuller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:39:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> Message-ID: <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> All: SO - as I'm getting cranked up to do some serious car work out in the garage, it occurs to me that I might want a different portable work table. Any suggestions for requirements? I'm currently using an old TV table. It has casters, two shelf and the top - nothing special. The size is around 18" x 24", and the height is probably 24" or so. I do have an old computer table that might get thrown out if it's not re-purposed. It's got a bigger foot print, and has sliding drawers. The slides aren't anything special, but I will/would go over to Home Depot/Lowes/Rocklers and get some drawer slides, which would make it sturdier, as well as having a stop, so the drawer doesn't come out in my hands. Current thinking: Size: Approx 18" x 30" Feet: Locking casters Power: Outlet mounted on work table for power tools (dremel, etc) Power: 25' extension cord to reach wall (cord reel?) Drawers: 2-3 sliding drawers. ?More ?Fewer ?anything special to have on hand? Other ideas? Al Fuller al at bighealey.org '62 BT-7 '65 BJ-8 '85 Rx-7 From eltonclark at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 15:19:58 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:19:58 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Socket organizers? In-Reply-To: References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> Message-ID: Ron twittered: Ah Ha - I was wondering where your nickname "muffin man" came from! *That's STUD muffin!!!!!!!!* *Tony* From ronnie.day at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:13:49 2010 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:13:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> Message-ID: <2faaebf81002211513g3d9cd5efsb374dfcdffeee740@mail.gmail.com> I've got an adjustable height roll around table that's about the size you want but without drawers. The "post" that supports the table is offset to one end so you can usually slide it under a car and have the table surface overhang the engine compartment. I got on sale at WalMart (I think) for around $60, but I'm pretty sure Harbor Freight, Northern Tool or a number of other places have something similar. In fact, I remember seeing a similar DIY design in Pop Hot Rodding or Chevy High Performance a year or two ago. It would be easy to add a power strip. HTH, Ron > Al > > SO - as I'm getting cranked up to do some serious car work out in the > garage, it occurs to me that I might want a different portable work table. > Any suggestions for requirements? > > I'm currently using an old TV table. B It has casters, two shelf and the top > - nothing special. B The size is around 18" x 24", and the height is probably > 24" or so. > > I do have an old computer table that might get thrown out if it's not > re-purposed. B It's got a bigger foot print, and has sliding drawers. B The > slides aren't anything special, but I will/would go over to Home > Depot/Lowes/Rocklers and get some drawer slides, which would make it > sturdier, as well as having a stop, so the drawer doesn't come out in my > hands. > > Current thinking: > Size: B Approx 18" x 30" > Feet: B Locking casters > Power: B Outlet mounted on work table for power tools (dremel, etc) > Power: B 25' extension cord to reach wall B (cord reel?) > Drawers: B B B B 2-3 sliding drawers. B ?More B ?Fewer ?anything special to > have on hand? > > Other ideas? From tvacc at lotusowners.com Sun Feb 21 16:37:29 2010 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:37:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: <14E1BE35D186417B91D1222A03070226@amicroinc.local> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org><013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> <14E1BE35D186417B91D1222A03070226@amicroinc.local> Message-ID: We just bought one at Sams club. Works great. $129.00 http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=447793 Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Al Fuller Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:16 PM To: 'Shop Talk List' Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements All: SO - as I'm getting cranked up to do some serious car work out in the garage, it occurs to me that I might want a different portable work table. Any suggestions for requirements? I'm currently using an old TV table. It has casters, two shelf and the top - nothing special. The size is around 18" x 24", and the height is probably 24" or so. I do have an old computer table that might get thrown out if it's not re-purposed. It's got a bigger foot print, and has sliding drawers. The slides aren't anything special, but I will/would go over to Home Depot/Lowes/Rocklers and get some drawer slides, which would make it sturdier, as well as having a stop, so the drawer doesn't come out in my hands. Current thinking: Size: Approx 18" x 30" Feet: Locking casters Power: Outlet mounted on work table for power tools (dremel, etc) Power: 25' extension cord to reach wall (cord reel?) Drawers: 2-3 sliding drawers. ?More ?Fewer ?anything special to have on hand? Other ideas? Al Fuller al at bighealey.org '62 BT-7 '65 BJ-8 '85 Rx-7 Suggested annual donation $12.96 You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4885 (20100221) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4885 (20100221) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From bjzwissler at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:58:30 2010 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:58:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> Message-ID: <4B81C8A6.3040104@gmail.com> I've got one of the Wal-Mart roll-around tables with adjustable top and a cabinet in the bottom. Its not super useful except as a place to set tools and smaller/lighter parts. Too unsteady for a work surface. I've also got a Harbor Freight roll around cart with an upper and lower shelf. It's good for heavier parts, but a too low for a work surface. The thing I've found the most useful for a portable work surface is an old ironing board. High, stable, reasonably sturdy and doesn't take much space when its not in use. If my wife ever decides to iron something I'll probably have to buy her a new one though..... Ben Zwissler bjzwissler at gmail.com Columbus, IN 1966 Triumph TR4A 1973 MG Midget 1980 Triumph TR8 2007 Mazda RX8 2002 Yamaha FZ1 2003 Honda ST1300 On 2/21/2010 4:39 PM, Al Fuller wrote: > All: > > SO - as I'm getting cranked up to do some serious car work out in the > garage, it occurs to me that I might want a different portable work table. > Any suggestions for requirements? > > I'm currently using an old TV table. It has casters, two shelf and the top > - nothing special. The size is around 18" x 24", and the height is probably > 24" or so. > > I do have an old computer table that might get thrown out if it's not > re-purposed. It's got a bigger foot print, and has sliding drawers. The > slides aren't anything special, but I will/would go over to Home > Depot/Lowes/Rocklers and get some drawer slides, which would make it > sturdier, as well as having a stop, so the drawer doesn't come out in my > hands. > > Current thinking: > Size: Approx 18" x 30" > Feet: Locking casters > Power: Outlet mounted on work table for power tools (dremel, etc) > Power: 25' extension cord to reach wall (cord reel?) > Drawers: 2-3 sliding drawers. ?More ?Fewer ?anything special to > have on hand? > > Other ideas? > > Al Fuller > al at bighealey.org > '62 BT-7 > '65 BJ-8 > '85 Rx-7 > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sun Feb 21 18:29:06 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:29:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: <4B81C8A6.3040104@gmail.com> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> <4B81C8A6.3040104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B81DDE2.3010409@hornesystemstx.com> I have an old hospital bed table. It doesn't have drawers, and the support is on one of the narrow ends. Works great for holding tools and lighter parts. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Ben Zwissler, On 2/21/2010 5:58 PM: > I've got one of the Wal-Mart roll-around tables with adjustable top > and a cabinet in the bottom. Its not super useful except as a place > to set tools and smaller/lighter parts. Too unsteady for a work > surface. I've also got a Harbor Freight roll around cart with an > upper and lower shelf. It's good for heavier parts, but a too low for > a work surface. The thing I've found the most useful for a portable > work surface is an old ironing board. High, stable, reasonably sturdy > and doesn't take much space when its not in use. If my wife ever > decides to iron something I'll probably have to buy her a new one > though..... > > Ben Zwissler > bjzwissler at gmail.com > Columbus, IN > 1966 Triumph TR4A > 1973 MG Midget > 1980 Triumph TR8 > 2007 Mazda RX8 > 2002 Yamaha FZ1 > 2003 Honda ST1300 > > > On 2/21/2010 4:39 PM, Al Fuller wrote: >> All: >> >> SO - as I'm getting cranked up to do some serious car work out in the >> garage, it occurs to me that I might want a different portable work >> table. >> Any suggestions for requirements? >> >> I'm currently using an old TV table. It has casters, two shelf and >> the top >> - nothing special. The size is around 18" x 24", and the height is >> probably >> 24" or so. >> >> I do have an old computer table that might get thrown out if it's not >> re-purposed. It's got a bigger foot print, and has sliding drawers. >> The >> slides aren't anything special, but I will/would go over to Home >> Depot/Lowes/Rocklers and get some drawer slides, which would make it >> sturdier, as well as having a stop, so the drawer doesn't come out in my >> hands. >> >> Current thinking: >> Size: Approx 18" x 30" >> Feet: Locking casters >> Power: Outlet mounted on work table for power tools (dremel, etc) >> Power: 25' extension cord to reach wall (cord reel?) >> Drawers: 2-3 sliding drawers. ?More ?Fewer ?anything special to >> have on hand? >> >> Other ideas? >> >> Al Fuller >> al at bighealey.org >> '62 BT-7 >> '65 BJ-8 >> '85 Rx-7 >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> >> You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 18:47:03 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:47:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: <4B81C8A6.3040104@gmail.com> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> <4B81C8A6.3040104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d41002211747w435b9472h418f54604685ffa1@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Ben Zwissler wrote: > I've got one of the Wal-Mart roll-around tables with adjustable top and a > cabinet in the bottom. Its not super useful except as a place to set tools > and smaller/lighter parts. Too unsteady for a work surface. I've also got > a Harbor Freight roll around cart with an upper and lower shelf. It's good > for heavier parts, but a too low for a work surface. The thing I've found > the most useful for a portable work surface is an old ironing board. High, > stable, reasonably sturdy and doesn't take much space when its not in use. > If my wife ever decides to iron something I'll probably have to buy her a > new one though..... > > Hi thee to your local Salvation Army thrift shop (or your lcoal equivalent.). They'll have several. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From al at bighealey.org Mon Feb 22 05:25:59 2010 From: al at bighealey.org (Al Fuller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:25:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: <2400a5d41002211747w435b9472h418f54604685ffa1@mail.gmail.com> References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org> <013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> <002e01cab33e$4f9bb830$eed32890$@org> <4B81C8A6.3040104@gmail.com> <2400a5d41002211747w435b9472h418f54604685ffa1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901cab3ba$32cfd250$986f76f0$@org> Hummm b Ibll have to think about the ironing board approachb& Al Fuller al at bighealey.org '62 BT-7 '65 BJ-8 '85 Rx-7 From: David Scheidt [mailto:dmscheidt at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:47 PM To: Ben Zwissler Cc: Al Fuller; Shop Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Ben Zwissler wrote: I've got one of the Wal-Mart roll-around tables with adjustable top and a cabinet in the bottom. Its not super useful except as a place to set tools and smaller/lighter parts. Too unsteady for a work surface. I've also got a Harbor Freight roll around cart with an upper and lower shelf. It's good for heavier parts, but a too low for a work surface. The thing I've found the most useful for a portable work surface is an old ironing board. High, stable, reasonably sturdy and doesn't take much space when its not in use. If my wife ever decides to iron something I'll probably have to buy her a new one though..... Hi thee to your local Salvation Army thrift shop (or your lcoal equivalent.). They'll have several. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From al at bighealey.org Mon Feb 22 05:36:22 2010 From: al at bighealey.org (Al Fuller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:36:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements In-Reply-To: References: <5C96A6A3-E058-451C-B2EB-1AD91D9C23DE@groupwbench.org><013001cab333$6dd72240$498566c0$@net> <14E1BE35D186417B91D1222A03070226@amicroinc.local> Message-ID: <007401cab3bb$a4e1d400$eea57c00$@org> Interesting work table. It's a little bigger than I need for working at the car, but some good ideas there.. Al Fuller al at bighealey.org '62 BT-7 '65 BJ-8 '85 Rx-7 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Vaccaro [mailto:tvacc at lotusowners.com] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 6:37 PM To: 'Al Fuller'; 'Shop Talk List' Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements We just bought one at Sams club. Works great. $129.00 http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=447793 Tony Vaccaro LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) www.lotusowners.com 716-861-1412 This document and any files or e-mail messages attached to it contain data or information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise restricted from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the data or information contained herein or in any of the attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this document or transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy, delete or erase this document and all attachments. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Al Fuller Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:16 PM To: 'Shop Talk List' Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable work table requirements All: SO - as I'm getting cranked up to do some serious car work out in the garage, it occurs to me that I might want a different portable work table. Any suggestions for requirements? I'm currently using an old TV table. It has casters, two shelf and the top - nothing special. The size is around 18" x 24", and the height is probably 24" or so. I do have an old computer table that might get thrown out if it's not re-purposed. It's got a bigger foot print, and has sliding drawers. The slides aren't anything special, but I will/would go over to Home Depot/Lowes/Rocklers and get some drawer slides, which would make it sturdier, as well as having a stop, so the drawer doesn't come out in my hands. Current thinking: Size: Approx 18" x 30" Feet: Locking casters Power: Outlet mounted on work table for power tools (dremel, etc) Power: 25' extension cord to reach wall (cord reel?) Drawers: 2-3 sliding drawers. ?More ?Fewer ?anything special to have on hand? Other ideas? Al Fuller From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Feb 24 12:10:25 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:10:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Pull Starter In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20100218122459.0572d008@yahoo.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20100218122459.0572d008@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703EBE221@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Okay, I have a new one for the list. I have a 23 year old snow blower (7HP Craftsman) with a Tecumseh engine on it. It's worked fine all these years (although some years it never gets used) except for one problem. The pull starter. A couple of months ago, the pull starter broke - actually the little "tang" that flips out and catches the starter cup on the end of the crank. Actually it failed a couple of years ago, but the blower wasn't needed since then. That one worked probably 20 times with no problem until a snowstorm in December, when it failed again. I tried to order a new one, but they seemed to be back ordered everywhere. I ended up ordering one from Sears and another for an online Parts shop. Both were back ordered and they finally came in after the second (or was it the third) big snowstorm hit the area. I installed the new Sears pull starter (and a new starter cup just in case), and it broke again on the second pull. Sears is replacing the failed part (still waiting for it), so I put on the internet part (identical looking to the Sears one). You guessed it, it seems to be failing after only two pulls. So, is there something wrong with the blower (it runs just fine if after you start it), or has the quality just fallen that far (the plastic part in the starter that holds the metal "tab" is what breaks off). My problem is temporary solved because when I order the parts, I also order the option electric starter. When I bought it 23 years ago, it was a $50 option that I figured I certainly didn't need. Now I paid a $100 for the electric starter, and I'm kicking my self - it's so nice to just plug it in, and push the button and instant start. :) If you ever buy a snow blower, go for the electric start if it's an option. Even when it's not having a problem, starting a 7 HP engine with a pull starter can be a pain. But that only solves part of the problem. As long as I don't stall it or shut it down without thinking, it's fine, but if I stall it (possible when it suddenly hits heavy snow/ice) it can be a long way from an extension cord (especially when I'm doing the elderly neighbor's driveways). So, any small engine experts that can tell what to fix/why the start keeps breaking? Remember the original starter worked fine for 20 years or so. Since then, no luck... Tim Mullen From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Wed Feb 24 20:00:26 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:00:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Pull Starter In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703EBE221@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <3F964E86C6544FFFBED5E91EC41FD734@Digilink1> FWIW.....I have an Ariens with a Techumsa Snow King engine with electric start. I rarely use the electric start because it is easier to give it one pull (it always starts on the first pull) than to drag the extension cord over to it. The day may come when it doesn't start so easily and then I may be glad to have the option but as for now, this is the way to go. From gsteve at hammatt.com Sat Feb 27 11:06:40 2010 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:06:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid Honing Message-ID: <9ED9A610D0294A4D8BD4DCE97958BDC5@DesktopPC> I'm not sure of the correct term, but I believe that there's an abrasive slurry used in some dragster/hot rod engine to smooth the flow of the gases thru the cylinder heads. I have a customer that needs to abrasively clean long water runs inside of a steel platen and I was thinking that maybe this principal could be used for that purpose. I suspect that this is already being done somewhere. Any suggestions as to trade names, web sites, etc.? Thanks Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Feb 27 11:31:38 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:31:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid Honing In-Reply-To: <9ED9A610D0294A4D8BD4DCE97958BDC5@DesktopPC> References: <9ED9A610D0294A4D8BD4DCE97958BDC5@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <4B89650A.4000602@xxiii.com> On 2/27/2010 1:06 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: > I'm not sure of the correct term, but I believe that there's an abrasive > slurry used in some dragster/hot rod engine to smooth the flow of the > gases thru the cylinder heads. > .... > Any suggestions as to trade names, web sites, etc.? Extrude Hone is the best known trade name. Probably other companies supplying the same process / equipment. Google turns up the company and a wiki article. -Wayne From gsteve at hammatt.com Sun Feb 28 10:00:30 2010 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:00:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid Honing In-Reply-To: <4B89650A.4000602@xxiii.com> References: <9ED9A610D0294A4D8BD4DCE97958BDC5@DesktopPC> <4B89650A.4000602@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the information, both Wayne and Bill Engle sent me the name Extrude Hone. I'm sure this will help. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne" To: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" ; "Shop Talk List" Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Liquid Honing > On 2/27/2010 1:06 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: >> I'm not sure of the correct term, but I believe that there's an >> abrasive >> slurry used in some dragster/hot rod engine to smooth the flow of >> the >> gases thru the cylinder heads. >> .... >> Any suggestions as to trade names, web sites, etc.? > > Extrude Hone is the best known trade name. Probably other companies > supplying the same process / equipment. Google turns up the company > and a wiki article. > > -Wayne