From tputland at charter.net  Mon Aug  2 05:48:18 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 7:48:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] shop sewer/septic tank prob
In-Reply-To: <CB86F5C5282648699D48CD2343FF152F@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <20100802074818.6G659.7119992.root@mp13>

Another item that will (help) clog your main drain is feminine products--they get hung up very easily if you have any roots at all. Don't ask how I found this out last winter. I gave my three females an ear full and warned all kinds of evil and bad repercussions if I found out they were continuing to flush that stuff.

It was an expensive lesson. 

Tim


---- John Niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote: 

=============
got a nice weekend problem... septic tank seems to be ready to spew !!  drains
running very slow... lots of gurgline in commodes and shower drains but no
back up yet...

sound like a clean up I'm thinking but truck can't get here till Monday
afternoon... anything I can do in the interim to prevent a disaster ??

thankis
john






I've learned in life that my primary goal
 is to serve as a bad example
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
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From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug  3 00:00:31 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 01:00:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
Message-ID: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>

Hi everybody !

 

Been off this list for months - bad story, not relevant anyway.

 

My middle daughter is about to close on a house 150 miles from here and I
will be needing to install some floors, baseboard, etc.  Unless I carry my
hand miter box down there or just freehand everything with a Skilsaw, this
seems like an excuse to buy a miter saw.

 

I do have a 10" old-style (cast iron column) Craftsman radial arm saw that I
don't use since I use the 10" Unisaw.  Point is, I have lots of 10" blades
and don't really need anything - this is an excuse to get a portable miter
saw, not to gain any cutting capability I really need.

 

I was thinking Horrible Freight because of coupons, etc., and because most
of the things I've bought there are fine for what they are.  I really need
this to make a few hundred cuts at most - it won't be used every day at all.
OTOH, I've seen some decent prices on real brands as well.

 

Sooooo.

Do I get the compound saw for more flexibility, or the plain chop-action
miter saw for rigidity ?  The compound seems fine in the store, though a bit
clumsy and heavy for what it does.  Rigidity seems OK if I'm not doing
cabinet work.  Any experience with HF saws ?

 

And since I have lots of 10" blades I figure I really should get a 10" saw,
especially if it's a compound, but then again I don't need lots of blades
for a saw like this and a 12" cuts more stuff.  Price at HF is maybe $10
different, so that's not an issue.  Weight and convenience might be.  And
10" blades are just so common.  How do I decide ??

 

TIA

Karl

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug  3 00:04:56 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 01:04:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable compressors
Message-ID: <002001cb32d1$cc793400$656b9c00$@ameritech.net>

For my daughter's house project, as well as trimming some of my house, I
want to buy a portable compressor.  Since I have lots of 2+ HP compressors,
at home I could just buy more hose, but for the Indiana job I really need
another compressor.

 

Is there any inherent convenience or other reason to buy a pancake
compressor vs a twin-tank model of the same cubic foot capacity ?  Looks
like the twin-tank ones have a lower CG which might be a consideration for
roofers, but is there any other reason to prefer one configuration over the
other, the compressor itself being equal ?

 

TIA

Karl

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 05:47:12 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 06:47:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>

I'm not sure this would be a good item to get from HF.  I would be worried
that it would be too sloppy to allow for accurate cuts.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!




> From: kvacek at ameritech.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 01:00:31 -0500
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
>
> Hi everybody !
>
>
>
> Been off this list for months - bad story, not relevant anyway.
>
>
>
> My middle daughter is about to close on a house 150 miles from here and I
> will be needing to install some floors, baseboard, etc. Unless I carry my
> hand miter box down there or just freehand everything with a Skilsaw, this
> seems like an excuse to buy a miter saw.
>
>
>
> I do have a 10" old-style (cast iron column) Craftsman radial arm saw that
I
> don't use since I use the 10" Unisaw. Point is, I have lots of 10" blades
> and don't really need anything - this is an excuse to get a portable miter
> saw, not to gain any cutting capability I really need.
>
>
>
> I was thinking Horrible Freight because of coupons, etc., and because most
> of the things I've bought there are fine for what they are. I really need
> this to make a few hundred cuts at most - it won't be used every day at
all.
> OTOH, I've seen some decent prices on real brands as well.
>
>
>
> Sooooo.
>
> Do I get the compound saw for more flexibility, or the plain chop-action
> miter saw for rigidity ? The compound seems fine in the store, though a bit
> clumsy and heavy for what it does. Rigidity seems OK if I'm not doing
> cabinet work. Any experience with HF saws ?
>
>
>
> And since I have lots of 10" blades I figure I really should get a 10" saw,
> especially if it's a compound, but then again I don't need lots of blades
> for a saw like this and a 12" cuts more stuff. Price at HF is maybe $10
> different, so that's not an issue. Weight and convenience might be. And
> 10" blades are just so common. How do I decide ??
>
>
>
> TIA
>
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Aug  3 07:06:07 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:06:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A63ED189-B0D0-4A05-A49F-36DB7868C720@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 3, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Rich White wrote:

> I'm not sure this would be a good item to get from HF.  I would be worried
> that it would be too sloppy to allow for accurate cuts.
>
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF587L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

I agree with Rich. You don't want a sloppy saw for things like flooring,
that's a shortcut to buying something twice.

I have a Ridgid chop saw and it's too flexy for fine work. I would buy a used
(or new) DeWalt/Porter Cable and sell it when you're done. My next saw will be
a compound mitre- I'm older and wiser and now believe in buying the right tool
once, no matter how small the job; I can always use it *somewhere*.

You said you have blades, but that's the workhorse of any saw so be sure
they're in top notch condition. I spent more on my blades $59 than I did on my
portable table saw ($39 floor model).

From lspector at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 07:58:10 2010
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:58:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <A63ED189-B0D0-4A05-A49F-36DB7868C720@groupwbench.org>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>
	<A63ED189-B0D0-4A05-A49F-36DB7868C720@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTintVdSwxFr2L1Uo-J_zYeAV9jreT+XfmjZB-+R2@mail.gmail.com>

Are you sure that a 10" blade will do the trick for you? If you ever
need to cut a 4x4 at anything more than about a 90 degree angle you'll
run out of cutting depth.

> And since I have lots of 10" blades I figure I really should get a 10" saw,
> especially if it's a compound, but then again I don't need lots of blades
> for a saw like this and a 12" cuts more stuff. Price at HF is maybe $10
> different, so that's not an issue. Weight and convenience might be. And
> 10" blades are just so common. How do I decide ??

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Tue Aug  3 08:33:33 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:33:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C5828BD.6090503@tx.rr.com>

I occasionally buy stuff from HF if it looks good in the store.  Some of 
their products look good, some don't.  I mostly buy little stuff from 
them but I have a drill press that is working OK for my light duty stuff.

I would really like to have a good sliding compount miter saw, although 
I have completed most of my home improvement tasks now.  The DeWalt 
sliding compound miter saw that I want is over $600, which is why I 
haven't bought one already.  Non-sliding saws can be found on sale for a 
whole lot less, they just won't cut as much wood.  Similarly a 12" will 
cut a bigger piece of wood than a 10".  OTOH the bigger saws get heavy 
in a hurry so they are hard to move around and hard to store in your 
shop if you don't leave them set up permanently.  There are always lots 
of these available on ebay, and it depends on the brand (and demand for 
that brand) as to how good of a deal you can get.  You can also find 
them used on craigslist if you are in a big city area, or even at some 
pawn shops.

> I'm not sure this would be a good item to get from HF.  I would be worried
> that it would be too sloppy to allow for accurate cuts.

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  3 09:41:15 2010
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:41:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HVAC question
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100731074631.044eafb0@cox.net>
References: <4C533337.6060304@xxiii.com>
	<007301cb3029$eed267b0$0301a8c0@randall>
	<AANLkTi=X4zrrw3ijX0tHuyvN=daJTOWftnTz7gNUe9oT@mail.gmail.com>
	<00aa01cb303f$b9bb8be0$0301a8c0@randall>
	<AANLkTinS2_iFWAH47PteN3k4-w27KVHvyhZoNsADZ0Jv@mail.gmail.com>
	<010501cb3058$01e1ed70$0301a8c0@randall>
	<AANLkTinwU2K0LXC=Lcdch2GF=ntD6GkB_N601c8ekV+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<000c01cb306b$a3004950$0301a8c0@randall>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100731074631.044eafb0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <01bc01cb3322$4f856d00$ee904700$@net>

Man - that stuff is scary dangerous - it can kill almost any person in less
than 30 seconds and it's not even regulated and normal beach sand is now
listed as hazardous material requiring special handling and disposal - go
figure.
                           

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John T. Blair
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:48 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] HVAC question

Don't forget that awful dihydrogen monoxide that's all over the place trying
to
kill everything in site.

John

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Aug  3 09:45:38 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:45:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>
	<A63ED189-B0D0-4A05-A49F-36DB7868C720@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <096FBBFDA1134C4492F6D74D74FC3678@mde.state.md.us>

>> I'm not sure this would be a good item to get from HF.  I would be 
>> worried
>> that it would be too sloppy to allow for accurate cuts.

I have the 10" sliding compound saw from HF.  It's perfectly ok and 
reasonably accurate.  No more flex in the rails than the others, and no more 
slop than them either.  Bearings benefit from some lubrication.

Not suited for precise cabinetry work, but I don't think I've ever met a cut 
saw that was.  Perfectly fine for construction and home improvements and 
such.

From ronald.schoenherr at ngc.com  Tue Aug  3 10:24:01 2010
From: ronald.schoenherr at ngc.com (Schoenherr, Ron (IS))
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 11:24:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] EXTERNAL:Re:  Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <096FBBFDA1134C4492F6D74D74FC3678@mde.state.md.us>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net><SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl><A63ED189-B0D0-4A05-A49F-36DB7868C720@groupwbench.org>
	<096FBBFDA1134C4492F6D74D74FC3678@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <E90F12F6C5B12E4EB540047F49F9EA7E051A3033@XMBTX132.northgrum.com>

I also have had good success with an HF 10" sliding compound saw.  I
used it for hundreds of cuts on laminate flooring and base moulding on
several rooms in two homes. Still works well.  YMMV!!
Ron

>> I'm not sure this would be a good item to get from HF.  I would be
>> worried
>> that it would be too sloppy to allow for accurate cuts.

Nolan wrote:
I have the 10" sliding compound saw from HF.  It's perfectly ok and
reasonably accurate.  No more flex in the rails than the others, and no
more
slop than them either.  Bearings benefit from some lubrication.

Not suited for precise cabinetry work, but I don't think I've ever met a
cut
saw that was.  Perfectly fine for construction and home improvements and

such.

From shop at justbrits.com  Tue Aug  3 10:36:30 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:36:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <A63ED189-B0D0-4A05-A49F-36DB7868C720@groupwbench.org>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<SNT123-W437DD18CD61538A6A0476DE1AE0@phx.gbl>
	<A63ED189-B0D0-4A05-A49F-36DB7868C720@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4C58458E.7060706@justbrits.com>

<< I would buy a used (or new) DeWalt/Porter Cable >>

ONLY if it's OLD and Made in USA, chaps.  "New" = CR*P.

<< and sell it when you're done. >>

And *IF* I did find one, selling would only be if I absolutely
needed food <VBG> !!

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com
[with LOTS of 1st time offers for Listers in the
For Sale areas which ARE soon to go to fleabay -:(.]

From arobs at u.washington.edu  Tue Aug  3 11:25:55 2010
From: arobs at u.washington.edu (Andrew Roberts)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1008030830250.24781@fallout.noom.org>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Karl Vacek wrote:

> Do I get the compound saw for more flexibility, or the plain chop-action
> miter saw for rigidity ?  The compound seems fine in the store, though a bit
> clumsy and heavy for what it does.  Rigidity seems OK if I'm not doing
> cabinet work.  Any experience with HF saws ?

A quality compound on a non-sliding miter saw should have little or no 
effect on rigidity; it will make it heavier.  Adding a sliding mechanism 
is where one usually starts having more issues with rigidity, and a more 
rigid slider will be a lot heavier.  No miter saw is going to beat your 
Unisaw for cabinet work, but it sounds like you already accept that 
limitation.

A steady hand and a sharp blade can still make straight cuts with a loose 
saw, albeit with less consistency.  You can have sideways deflection with 
or without the compound; it's a function of the blade, torque, feed rate, 
and operator, in addition to the rigidity of the saw.  I consider myself 
to be a lower-skilled operator, so I try to put the other factors in my 
favor as much as I can afford to.

> And since I have lots of 10" blades I figure I really should get a 10" saw,
> especially if it's a compound, but then again I don't need lots of blades
> for a saw like this and a 12" cuts more stuff.  Price at HF is maybe $10
> different, so that's not an issue.  Weight and convenience might be.  And
> 10" blades are just so common.  How do I decide ??

If you're relying on a table saw for making accurate cuts and using the 
miter saw for the convenience of making rougher cuts quickly on the 
jobsite, I'd go for the lightest miter saw that has the capacity to do 
most of your work.  If you need to make compound cuts only occasionally, 
then, save the weight and cash and don't get a compound.  If you need more 
width and/or height, going with a 12" non-sliding is usually better (in 
cost, weight and rigidity) than a 10" sliding, unless you plan on doing a 
lot cuts in wide flat boards (mitering the corners on a siding install, 
for example).  If you're doing crown molding, you'll likely want the 
height of the 12" CMS, though there are ways to do it on a 10" SCMS.

I like your thoughts about not needing a lot of blades.  Going up to 12" 
gives you the additional excuse that the new saw can cut some things that 
your 10" radial arm cannot, but before saying that the cost difference 
between a 10" and a 12" is insignificant, you'll want to make account 
of the more expensive blades.  I haven't any experience with saws from HF, 
but I can say that a quality saw can make horrible looking cuts with the 
wrong blade and that I've seen cheap saws make very nice cuts with a good 
(appropriate hook, number of teeth, freshly sharpened) blade.

One safety note on interchanging blades between table saws and miter saws: 
many table saw blades have a large hook angle, which helps keep the 
work on the table (among other things) when ripping.  On a miter or radial 
arm saw, a large positive hook will increase the tendency for the work 
piece to lift up, so most miter saw blades have a zero or slightly 
negative hook angle.  Ripping blades also tend to have larger gullets 
which can allow too fast a feed rate when used on a cross-cutting saw.

We're I you, I'd go for a cheaper saw and put a nice cross-cutting blade 
on it.  No matter how rigid a miter saw you get, it won't have the 
precision of your Unisaw, and if you're not using it for precision work, 
why have extra cost and weight?  Especially since one of your tasks is a 
flooring install where clean cuts are more important than precise ones, 
you'll get more for you dollar by putting your money into the blade.

Have fun,

Andrew Roberts
Seattle, WA

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Aug  3 17:43:33 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 18:43:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4C58A9A5.4050601@hornesystemstx.com>

  Karl,

One thing about using the 10" blades you already have is that the 
geometry of the cutting edge is different between a table saw blade and 
a miter saw blade.  I can't remember for sure, but I think the trust 
angle of the table saw blade will cause the miter saw to plow into the 
wood, leaving a rougher cut. I use a sliding saw, and can tell the 
difference between a table saw blade and a miter saw blade.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Karl Vacek, On 8/3/2010 1:00 AM:
> Hi everybody !
>
>
>
> Been off this list for months - bad story, not relevant anyway.
>
>
>
> My middle daughter is about to close on a house 150 miles from here and I
> will be needing to install some floors, baseboard, etc.  Unless I carry my
> hand miter box down there or just freehand everything with a Skilsaw, this
> seems like an excuse to buy a miter saw.
>
>
>
> I do have a 10" old-style (cast iron column) Craftsman radial arm saw that I
> don't use since I use the 10" Unisaw.  Point is, I have lots of 10" blades
> and don't really need anything - this is an excuse to get a portable miter
> saw, not to gain any cutting capability I really need.
>
>
>
> I was thinking Horrible Freight because of coupons, etc., and because most
> of the things I've bought there are fine for what they are.  I really need
> this to make a few hundred cuts at most - it won't be used every day at all.
> OTOH, I've seen some decent prices on real brands as well.
>
>
>
> Sooooo.
>
> Do I get the compound saw for more flexibility, or the plain chop-action
> miter saw for rigidity ?  The compound seems fine in the store, though a bit
> clumsy and heavy for what it does.  Rigidity seems OK if I'm not doing
> cabinet work.  Any experience with HF saws ?
>
>
>
> And since I have lots of 10" blades I figure I really should get a 10" saw,
> especially if it's a compound, but then again I don't need lots of blades
> for a saw like this and a 12" cuts more stuff.  Price at HF is maybe $10
> different, so that's not an issue.  Weight and convenience might be.  And
> 10" blades are just so common.  How do I decide ??
>
>
>
> TIA
>
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Aug  3 18:49:13 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:49:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Portable compressors
In-Reply-To: <002001cb32d1$cc793400$656b9c00$@ameritech.net>
References: <002001cb32d1$cc793400$656b9c00$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4C58B909.8040107@hornesystemstx.com>

  Twin tank compressors usually are easier to carry between studs if you 
have to walk through walls. I have a 10 year old Campbell Hausfield 
single tank 1 hp compressor that has served me very well over the years. 
I am not running the big guns all the time, but they will keep up with 
trim guns easily. I got mine as a reconditioned compressor from one of 
the traveling tool shows for $75, but that was 10 years ago.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Karl Vacek, On 8/3/2010 1:04 AM:
> For my daughter's house project, as well as trimming some of my house, I
> want to buy a portable compressor.  Since I have lots of 2+ HP compressors,
> at home I could just buy more hose, but for the Indiana job I really need
> another compressor.
>
>
>
> Is there any inherent convenience or other reason to buy a pancake
> compressor vs a twin-tank model of the same cubic foot capacity ?  Looks
> like the twin-tank ones have a lower CG which might be a consideration for
> roofers, but is there any other reason to prefer one configuration over the
> other, the compressor itself being equal ?
>
>
>
> TIA
>
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  3 20:03:24 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:03:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4C58CA6C.6020302@earthlink.net>

I'm very happy with my Dewalt 10" compound miter saw. Lots of trim work 
and pretty accurate. I saw the comment about looking for old USA made 
ones. Mine is 7-8 years old, so quality may have changed. Make sure 
whatever you get you can lift and carry. I also recommend an adjustable 
stand. See 40612 at Harbor Freight for a sample. I liked the Ryobi one 
from Home Depot better at $99 a few years ago.

Another advantage of a compound saw is the ability to back cut trim so 
the face is tighter. Sure you could stick a pencil under the board, but 
that makes it tougher for non-professionals to get an accurate cut.

Brian

Karl Vacek wrote:
> Hi everybody !
>
>  
>
> Been off this list for months - bad story, not relevant anyway.
>
>  
>
> My middle daughter is about to close on a house 150 miles from here and I
> will be needing to install some floors, baseboard, etc.  Unless I carry my
> hand miter box down there or just freehand everything with a Skilsaw, this
> seems like an excuse to buy a miter saw.
>
>  
>
> I do have a 10" old-style (cast iron column) Craftsman radial arm saw that I
> don't use since I use the 10" Unisaw.  Point is, I have lots of 10" blades
> and don't really need anything - this is an excuse to get a portable miter
> saw, not to gain any cutting capability I really need.
>
>  
>
> I was thinking Horrible Freight because of coupons, etc., and because most
> of the things I've bought there are fine for what they are.  I really need
> this to make a few hundred cuts at most - it won't be used every day at all.
> OTOH, I've seen some decent prices on real brands as well.
>
>  
>
> Sooooo.
>
> Do I get the compound saw for more flexibility, or the plain chop-action
> miter saw for rigidity ?  The compound seems fine in the store, though a bit
> clumsy and heavy for what it does.  Rigidity seems OK if I'm not doing
> cabinet work.  Any experience with HF saws ?
>
>  
>
> And since I have lots of 10" blades I figure I really should get a 10" saw,
> especially if it's a compound, but then again I don't need lots of blades
> for a saw like this and a 12" cuts more stuff.  Price at HF is maybe $10
> different, so that's not an issue.  Weight and convenience might be.  And
> 10" blades are just so common.  How do I decide ??
>
>  
>
> TIA
>
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Aug  3 21:25:37 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:25:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <4C58CA6C.6020302@earthlink.net>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<4C58CA6C.6020302@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimu_qoCUKpQj8dvnMtZ6UaR-BOhjU3dPX4H4Sme@mail.gmail.com>

I  have the same saw, bought maybe 6 years ago, and I have always been
very happy with it. I also got a Ridgid portable stand from HD, and
that is also very handy.  It is rather heavy though, and is really
meant for a 12" saw.

Doug

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'm very happy with my Dewalt 10" compound miter saw. Lots of trim work and
> pretty accurate. I saw the comment about looking for old USA made ones. Mine
> is 7-8 years old, so quality may have changed. Make sure whatever you get
> you can lift and carry. I also recommend an adjustable stand. See 40612 at
> Harbor Freight for a sample. I liked the Ryobi one from Home Depot better at
> $99 a few years ago.

From lee at automate-it.com  Wed Aug  4 09:14:28 2010
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:14:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away functions?
In-Reply-To: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>
References: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

I've had a number of programmable thermostats in my homes, but I have not been
able to find one that fits my current need.

I have a part of the house that only gets occasional use, and has it's own
HVAC unit. This is Houston area, so A/C is the big power hog. The 'stat has
the morning/day/evening/night temperature settings, and this is great when I
have guests, etc. But when I'm not using it, I'd still like to have the
4-time-zone functions, but at a higher temp. I.e. have two different programs
- a "home" program, and an "away" program. (I still want it to run, just not
as much.) Anyone seen such a beast?

I like the new "internet accessible" units, but for now the price is $$$.

 - Lee

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Aug  4 11:28:48 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 12:28:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away  functions?
In-Reply-To: <d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>
	<d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <4C59A350.9010407@justbrits.com>

<< Anyone seen such a beast? >>

Nope, Lee.  My next door neighbor with FOUR [5] zones has been 'hunting' for almost a year to no avail.

<< I like the new "internet accessible" units, but for now the price is $$$. >>

Can't have yer cake & eat it to !!  <VBG> !!

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com
[with LOTS of 1st time offers for Listers in the


For Sale areas which ARE soon to go to fleabay -:(.]

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 15:02:33 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 16:02:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away  functions?
In-Reply-To: <d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>,
	<d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W33440079B0616ADEACBB27E1AF0@phx.gbl>

Could you wire two identical ones in parallel?
One would be programmed for "home" and one for "away".
Turn which ever one you needed on and other one off.

I do not think there would be a problem even if you ended up with both of them
on.
It would just keep the area at the "home" setting.

If you had one was trying to heat and the other one trying to cool, that might
be another story.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!




> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:14:28 -0500
> From: lee at automate-it.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away functions?
>
> I've had a number of programmable thermostats in my homes, but I have not
been
> able to find one that fits my current need.
>
> I have a part of the house that only gets occasional use, and has it's own
> HVAC unit. This is Houston area, so A/C is the big power hog. The 'stat has
> the morning/day/evening/night temperature settings, and this is great when
I
> have guests, etc. But when I'm not using it, I'd still like to have the
> 4-time-zone functions, but at a higher temp. I.e. have two different
programs
> - a "home" program, and an "away" program. (I still want it to run, just
not
> as much.) Anyone seen such a beast?
>
> I like the new "internet accessible" units, but for now the price is $$$.
>
> - Lee
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Aug  4 15:17:30 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 17:17:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away  functions?
In-Reply-To: <d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it. com>
References: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>
	<d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100804171352.045a0758@cox.net>

At 11:14 AM 8/4/2010, Lee Daniels wrote:

 >I've had a number of programmable thermostats in my homes, but I have not
 >been able to find one that fits my current need.

 >I have a part of the house that only gets occasional use, and has 
it's own HVAC unit. ...

 >The 'stat has the morning/day/evening/night temperature settings, 
and this is great when I
 >have guests, etc. But when I'm not using it, I'd still like to have 
the 4-time-zone functions, but
 >at a higher temp. I.e. have two different programs - a "home" 
program, and an "away" program.
 >(I still want it to run, just not as much.)

As others have said, I don't know of any.  But you might want to 
contact the maker of your current
'stat (ie. Honeywell) and explain your needs.  I'm sure you aren't 
the only one that would like this
feature.  I know many on this list have wanted a 'stat that they 
could set to a lower temp than the
60 or so currently on most 'stats.

So you might be able to get the to add these features into a later 'stat.

John



>I like the new "internet accessible" units, but for now the price is $$$.
>
>  - Lee
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 19:39:02 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 18:39:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away  functions?
In-Reply-To: <d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
References: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>
	<d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <4C5A1636.3080909@earthlink.net>

Lee - If you can be satisfied with a single temperature setting for the 
"away" mode, just look for one with a manual override setting. Run your 
normal program when you have guests then enter the max temp as a manual 
setting. In the winter, you would enter the min temp. When guest are 
coming back, you would just hit the 'run program' button to go back to 
the regular program.

Brian

Lee Daniels wrote:
> I've had a number of programmable thermostats in my homes, but I have not been
> able to find one that fits my current need.
>
> I have a part of the house that only gets occasional use, and has it's own
> HVAC unit. This is Houston area, so A/C is the big power hog. The 'stat has
> the morning/day/evening/night temperature settings, and this is great when I
> have guests, etc. But when I'm not using it, I'd still like to have the
> 4-time-zone functions, but at a higher temp. I.e. have two different programs
> - a "home" program, and an "away" program. (I still want it to run, just not
> as much.) Anyone seen such a beast?
>
> I like the new "internet accessible" units, but for now the price is $$$.
>
>  - Lee
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Aug  4 13:43:36 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:43:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Do you know those study custom made boxes that musicians,
photographers, etc. use to transport equipment in checked luggage?
I need to make a reasonable imitation of those, about 10" x 10" x 15".
 I imagine they are made from plywood, with
various bumpers, guards, hinges, latches, etc.  Does anybody know a
good source for the hardware bits,
or for plans to make one?  Places like Rockler and McMaster hav stuff
that might do, bu tnone of it looks like the stuff the
"real" boxes are mode from.

Thanks,
Doug

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Aug  4 20:33:04 2010
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 22:33:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away functions?
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W33440079B0616ADEACBB27E1AF0@phx.gbl>
References: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>,
	<d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
	<SNT123-W33440079B0616ADEACBB27E1AF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00db01cb3446$885be530$9913af90$@mele@usermail.com>

prob better to wire them thru a 5 or 6 pole (I forgot how many wires from
controller to unit), double throw switch; power "on" to both units all the
time; switch selects which one gets to command the unit...

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rich White
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 5:03 PM
To: shop-talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away functions?

Could you wire two identical ones in parallel?
One would be programmed for "home" and one for "away".
Turn which ever one you needed on and other one off.

I do not think there would be a problem even if you ended up with both of
them
on.
It would just keep the area at the "home" setting.

If you had one was trying to heat and the other one trying to cool, that
might
be another story.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Aug  4 21:58:51 2010
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 23:58:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C5A36FB.9030000@boicey.com>

  On 04/08/2010 3:43 PM, Douglas Braun wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Do you know those study custom made boxes that musicians,
> photographers, etc. use to transport equipment in checked luggage?
> I need to make a reasonable imitation of those, about 10" x 10" x 15".
>   I imagine they are made from plywood, with
> various bumpers, guards, hinges, latches, etc.  Does anybody know a
> good source for the hardware bits,
   The nicer ones are generally called "flight cases", the cheaper 
plastic ones are also decent, SKB is a common brand for music gear.

   Remember that a 50lb (~22kg) limit exists on a lot of checked bags 
with some airlines, so that doesn't leave a lot of weight for the item 
if you make it out of plywood and use lots of hardware. :(

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 23:04:10 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:04:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C5A464A.5040206@earthlink.net>

Doug - If you decide to go premade, check out Pelican Cases - 
http://pelican.com - they come with or without foam.  They are so 
popular, all I had to type was "Peli" before Google suggested "Pelican 
cases".

They are waterproof and have a lifetime guarantee.  (This guarantee does 
not cover shark bite, bear attack or damage caused by children under 
five.)  I have several of their cases and flashlights.  One flashlight 
in particular has been heavily abused including about 100 southern 
California beach dives.  The cases are the same material as the flashlight.

If you have any scuba stores nearby, they probably stock them.  They are 
also popular with military, police, and fire departments.

Brian

Douglas Braun wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Do you know those study custom made boxes that musicians,
> photographers, etc. use to transport equipment in checked luggage?
> I need to make a reasonable imitation of those, about 10" x 10" x 15".
>  I imagine they are made from plywood, with
> various bumpers, guards, hinges, latches, etc.  Does anybody know a
> good source for the hardware bits,
> or for plans to make one?  Places like Rockler and McMaster hav stuff
> that might do, bu tnone of it looks like the stuff the
> "real" boxes are mode from.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Thu Aug  5 07:28:18 2010
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vincent Marshall)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 09:28:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
In-Reply-To: <4C5A464A.5040206@earthlink.net>
References: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C5A464A.5040206@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9C704470-E4B8-4E30-87CC-C7BF4E593069@te-motorworks.com>

I'll second that recommendation for pelican cases.  We use pelican cases for
all of our video gear.  They are not light, but they've done a great job of
protecting our gear, including ~5000 miles spent bouncing across the country
in the back of a pickup truck.

For bigger shipping cases, it's worth looking on govliquidation.com for some
military surplus items - assuming that you can find a use for a whole pallet
of them.  Here's a cursory search for 'shipping' on the site:
http://bit.ly/cxqO6Y

-vin


On Aug 5, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Brian Kemp wrote:

> Doug - If you decide to go premade, check out Pelican Cases -
http://pelican.com - they come with or without foam.  They are so popular, all
I had to type was "Peli" before Google suggested "Pelican cases".
>
> They are waterproof and have a lifetime guarantee.  (This guarantee does not
cover shark bite, bear attack or damage caused by children under five.)  I
have several of their cases and flashlights.  One flashlight in particular has
been heavily abused including about 100 southern California beach dives.  The
cases are the same material as the flashlight.
>
> If you have any scuba stores nearby, they probably stock them.  They are
also popular with military, police, and fire departments.
>
> Brian
>
> Douglas Braun wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Do you know those study custom made boxes that musicians,
>> photographers, etc. use to transport equipment in checked luggage?
>> I need to make a reasonable imitation of those, about 10" x 10" x 15".
>> I imagine they are made from plywood, with
>> various bumpers, guards, hinges, latches, etc.  Does anybody know a
>> good source for the hardware bits,
>> or for plans to make one?  Places like Rockler and McMaster hav stuff
>> that might do, bu tnone of it looks like the stuff the
>> "real" boxes are mode from.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Doug
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/vlm at te-motorworks.com

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Aug  5 08:26:54 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 10:26:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Programmable thermostat with home/away  functions?
References: <DECA9E6C4F9F4419B0688216BDF1ACA0@EricJRussellPC>
	<d25dfc0ebdb50b4318ef8095b8d8e918.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>
Message-ID: <71178E4472034E39A6AC87ECE5C81B0B@mde.state.md.us>

Not sure if the Hunter 44360 will come close enough for you or not.  I have 
this thermostat myself.

The feature that may work is the "home" button.  This button overrides the 
temperature profile and takes the unit to whatever you've already told it is 
comfortable.  So you can leave it at the high summer setting, but when 
someone walks in, just poke the button and it cools down (or heats up in the 
winter).  But you'd have to keep poking the button for each time phase.

The other feature that could work is the "away" mode.  Though I find this 
mode rather hard to operate.  You tell it you're going away, and set an 
alternative low energy profile for that time.  Run it in reverse.  Set it to 
away when some is there, with a comfortable setting, and the normal default 
is more energy efficient.  But like I said, I find the menu difficult to 
work on this mode.

Alternatively, a wall mounted toggle switch with two thermostats.  Throw the 
switch towards whichever thermostat you wish to use.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug  5 08:59:43 2010
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Douglas Braun)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 10:59:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
In-Reply-To: <9C704470-E4B8-4E30-87CC-C7BF4E593069@te-motorworks.com>
References: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C5A464A.5040206@earthlink.net>
	<9C704470-E4B8-4E30-87CC-C7BF4E593069@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik-ORo+MSgSMBG3EX4240TgzSfQOja+ikXadqVc@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all the suggestions.  It turns out that "ATA case" is the
best search term.  I am actually transporting 14-liter tins (about
9x9x14") of good olive oil back from a trip from Greece, and we end
up doing this every year.  In the past, the guy who sold the tins
would nail together a single-use packing crate from random bits of
lumber.  (If you watch the baggage carousel in JFK for a flight from
Greece, you will usually see a couple of these boxes going by.)

Doug

>> Douglas Braun wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Do you know those study custom made boxes that musicians,
>>> photographers, etc. use to transport equipment in checked luggage?
>>> I need to make a reasonable imitation of those, about 10" x 10" x 15".
>>> I imagine they are made from plywood, with
>>> various bumpers, guards, hinges, latches, etc.  Does anybody know a
>>> good source for the hardware bits,
>>> or for plans to make one?  Places like Rockler and McMaster hav stuff
>>> that might do, bu tnone of it looks like the stuff the
>>> "real" boxes are mode from.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Doug

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Aug  5 14:04:18 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 15:04:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimu_qoCUKpQj8dvnMtZ6UaR-BOhjU3dPX4H4Sme@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<4C58CA6C.6020302@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimu_qoCUKpQj8dvnMtZ6UaR-BOhjU3dPX4H4Sme@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601cb34d9$630b8cc0$2922a640$@ameritech.net>

OK - here's a little more of my ignorance exposed. Aside from cross-cutting
wider boards, which isn't my main need, is there any other advantage to a
sliding compound miter saw saw vs a chop-style compound miter saw ?  Isn't
the maximum material cut thickness almost completely a function of the blade
diameter, or do these saws vary significantly in that respect ?

Looks like the ways in a sliding saw are a major deflection potential, as
compared to a relatively rigid simple pivot of the chop-type.

All the work I'll ever do with this saw is minor trim and flooring at my
daughter's, which is my major concern right now.  Later, at home, I need to
do window and door casings and some crown molding, but at home I have a
table saw and a radial arm saw, so this would strictly be a small
convenience, not a necessity.
 
Thanks for all the constructive and educational comments so far !

Karl

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Thu Aug  5 14:49:55 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:49:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <002601cb34d9$630b8cc0$2922a640$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20100805204955.ZUVDA.88394.root@cdptpa-web18-z02>

A non-sliding saw is limited by the diameter of the blade and the angle of the cut.  If you are cutting perpendicular to a board, you could cut a certain width of 1" board, or you could cut a certain size of square board.  If you angle the cut it reduces your capacity.  You can always cut halfway through, flip the piece over and cut the other halfway through but this reduces your precision and can get more difficult if you are cutting a miter.  If you want to cut larger, you need a bigger diameter blade, OR you need a sliding saw.  I don't think a good sliding saw affects accuracy that much, a poor sliding saw might.  It just depends on what you need.

You should pick a saw based on what size you want to cut or think you want to cut.  If you think you will plan for the worst case then you will have to buy the sliding saw because you can always visualize the need to sometime cut something wide.  BUT the bigger the saw, the heavier the saw, and they can get heavy in a hurry.  If you need to carry it around, you don't want any bigger saw than you need.

I wanted the DeWalt sliding saw, but it is more expensive than I could justify and also it is pretty darned heavy.  I didn't have an immediate need so I gave up on that desire.  The next time I have a real job that I need a saw for, then I'll start shopping again and buy one, maybe just big enough for that job.

I have a table saw right now, if I had a big sliding saw I probably wouldn't have much need for the table saw anymore but a smaller saw would not replace the table saw nearly as easily.



> OK - here's a little more of my ignorance exposed. Aside from cross-cutting
> wider boards, which isn't my main need, is there any other advantage to a
> sliding compound miter saw saw vs a chop-style compound miter saw ?  Isn't
> the maximum material cut thickness almost completely a function of the blade
> diameter, or do these saws vary significantly in that respect ?
> 
> Looks like the ways in a sliding saw are a major deflection potential, as
> compared to a relatively rigid simple pivot of the chop-type.

From shop at justbrits.com  Thu Aug  5 15:12:04 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 16:12:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <002601cb34d9$630b8cc0$2922a640$@ameritech.net>
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<4C58CA6C.6020302@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimu_qoCUKpQj8dvnMtZ6UaR-BOhjU3dPX4H4Sme@mail.gmail.com>
	<002601cb34d9$630b8cc0$2922a640$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4C5B2924.2060709@justbrits.com>

<< Thanks for all the constructive and educational comments so far ! >>

Maybe the following will be your "final answer", Karl <VBG> !!

Since you say you do have a serious limited use/time of the
tool, why not just rent one ??

This store is local to me, but I would think you should have
something similar near you ?!?!?

http://www.buttreyrental.com/equipment.asp?action=category&category=42&key=SAWMIT12

OR

*http://tinyurl.com/2898f5r
*
In this case [just so the rest of you don't have to look<G>]
3 hours = $44.00
Daily = $ 56.00        OR
Weekly = $170.00

If it breaks - they fix;  you don't have to worry where you
are gonna squirrel it away when you are DONE at your
Daughter's <VBG>;   and it you buy and it break -
    "...no worries, be happy !!!"   LOL

HTHs !!

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 15:31:24 2010
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:31:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <20100805204955.ZUVDA.88394.root@cdptpa-web18-z02>
References: <002601cb34d9$630b8cc0$2922a640$@ameritech.net>
	<20100805204955.ZUVDA.88394.root@cdptpa-web18-z02>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiney9c6=SFn=1gxvMNm_hkpgb2LCJC+-_peU-t2@mail.gmail.com>

> A non-sliding saw is limited by the diameter of the blade and the angle of
the cut. B If you are cutting perpendicular to a board, you could cut a
certain width of 1" board, or you could cut a certain size of square board.
B If you angle the cut it reduces your capacity. B You can always cut halfway
through, flip the piece over and cut the other halfway through but this
reduces your precision and can get more difficult if you are cutting a miter.
B If you want to cut larger, you need a bigger diameter blade, OR you need a
sliding saw. B I don't think a good sliding saw affects accuracy that much, a
poor sliding saw might. B It just depends on what you need.
>
> You should pick a saw based on what size you want to cut or think you want
to cut. B If you think you will plan for the worst case then you will have to
buy the sliding saw because you can always visualize the need to sometime cut
something wide. B BUT the bigger the saw, the heavier the saw, and they can
get heavy in a hurry. B If you need to carry it around, you don't want any
bigger saw than you need.
>
> I wanted the DeWalt sliding saw, but it is more expensive than I could
justify and also it is pretty darned heavy. B I didn't have an immediate need
so I gave up on that desire. B The next time I have a real job that I need a
saw for, then I'll start shopping again and buy one, maybe just big enough for
that job.

We have both a Rigid 12 inch sliding compound saw and a Ryobi 10
compound saw. As mention the 12 inch is massive. We have it on one of
the MSUVs (Miter Saw Utility Vehicles) and wouldn't have it any other
way. However it can be a PITA to move around, even on the cart. While
cutting framing for our new place we cut most of the studs, cripples,
headers, etc., where we're living using the 12 inch, then carried the
10 in to the job site and cut the top most cripples there. Worked out
great.

IIRC, we paid over $600 for the 12 inch, with the cart and I got the
10 in on a Black Friday sale for maybe $70. I keep shape quality
blades for both. Makes a HUGE difference.

FWIW,
Ron

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Thu Aug  5 20:23:20 2010
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 02:23:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
In-Reply-To: <002601cb34d9$630b8cc0$2922a640$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <10521545.1046014.1281061400778.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

To my mind, the sliding miter saw is somewhat like a miniature radial arm saw.  Flex in the sliding mechanism will kill the accuracy in either.

Donald.
--
"Plain Text" email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> Cc: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2010 4:04:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
> 
> OK - here's a little more of my ignorance exposed. Aside from cross-cutting
> wider boards, which isn't my main need, is there any other advantage to a
> sliding compound miter saw saw vs a chop-style compound miter saw ?  Isn't
> the maximum material cut thickness almost completely a function of the blade
> diameter, or do these saws vary significantly in that respect ?
> 
> Looks like the ways in a sliding saw are a major deflection potential, as
> compared to a relatively rigid simple pivot of the chop-type. 
> All the work I'll ever do with this saw is minor trim and flooring at my
> daughter's, which is my major concern right now.  Later, at home, I need to
> do window and door casings and some crown molding, but at home I have a
> table saw and a radial arm saw, so this would strictly be a small
> convenience, not a necessity.
>  
> Thanks for all the constructive and educational comments so far !
> 
> Karl

From opposumking at verizon.net  Fri Aug  6 04:53:40 2010
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 06:53:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miter saw or compound miter saw
References: <001b01cb32d1$2e940f80$8bbc2e80$@ameritech.net>
	<4C58CA6C.6020302@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimu_qoCUKpQj8dvnMtZ6UaR-BOhjU3dPX4H4Sme@mail.gmail.com>
	<002601cb34d9$630b8cc0$2922a640$@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <7F21CECF47B947368621D86F506F9CC2@mde.state.md.us>

> OK - here's a little more of my ignorance exposed. Aside from 
> cross-cutting
> wider boards, which isn't my main need, is there any other advantage to a
> sliding compound miter saw saw vs a chop-style compound miter saw ?

Not really.  And yes, deflection of the ways or tubes on a slider can be 
significant.  And yes, in the case of the chopsaw type (non-slider) it's 
blade size that dictates the width of the cut.  I went with a 10" slider 
because I wanted the ability to make wider cuts at an angle.  When you angle 
the blade, it doesn't take much wood to exceed the cut limit of a rigid 10" 
blade.  Being able to slide lets me use a smaller blade and smaller saw, 
which can be cheaper and easier to handle.

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Fri Aug  6 15:17:54 2010
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 17:17:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
References: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com><4C5A464A.5040206@earthlink.net><9C704470-E4B8-4E30-87CC-C7BF4E593069@te-motorworks.com>
	<AANLkTik-ORo+MSgSMBG3EX4240TgzSfQOja+ikXadqVc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D64896ECA204B0DB80B40BE7AE29ECC@watsongxpejt9r>

Just a thought about using Pelican or similar cases.  A friend of mine works 
for a company that used to use this type of cases to ship their electronic 
control modules and kept getting them stolen apparently by people assuming 
that a case like that must have something valuable inside it.  One time in 
desperation he went to a thrift store and bought some generic suitcases, 
fitted them with fitted foam inside to cushion the instruments and shipped 
them that way.  Since then they basically don't have any issues with them 
being stolen.  Obviously a case of "The Purloined Letter" for those of you 
who are familiar with Sherlock Holmes.

Mark Watson (<-- of course I heard all about "Elementary, my dear Watson" 
growing up!)
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104'
1965 Ford Falcon
various transportation pods

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Aug  6 19:43:06 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 18:43:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
In-Reply-To: <4D64896ECA204B0DB80B40BE7AE29ECC@watsongxpejt9r>
References: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com><4C5A464A.5040206@earthlink.net><9C704470-E4B8-4E30-87CC-C7BF4E593069@te-motorworks.com>
	<AANLkTik-ORo+MSgSMBG3EX4240TgzSfQOja+ikXadqVc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D64896ECA204B0DB80B40BE7AE29ECC@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <4C5CBA2A.2000607@verizon.net>

That's an interesting idea.  Old school Samsonite hard luggage is about 
as bulletproof as Pelican stuff and people are throwing it away since 
it's a PITA for modern air travel.  We have some 60s vintage stuff (or 
maybe late 50s) my wife got from her parents that we never use (but she 
won't get rid of) that you could probably use for jack stands.

Mark Watson wrote:
> One time in desperation he went to a thrift store and bought some
> generic suitcases, fitted them with fitted foam inside to cushion the
> instruments and shipped them that way.  Since then they basically don't
> have any issues with them being stolen.

From shop at justbrits.com  Sat Aug  7 12:33:30 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 13:33:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Making some shipping crates
In-Reply-To: <4C5CBA2A.2000607@verizon.net>
References: <AANLkTi=kz3BpAyQi3D_VQoCPEe1nXJcXw_Xe9w4FojRk@mail.gmail.com><4C5A464A.5040206@earthlink.net><9C704470-E4B8-4E30-87CC-C7BF4E593069@te-motorworks.com>
	<AANLkTik-ORo+MSgSMBG3EX4240TgzSfQOja+ikXadqVc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D64896ECA204B0DB80B40BE7AE29ECC@watsongxpejt9r>
	<4C5CBA2A.2000607@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C5DA6FA.2010709@justbrits.com>

<< (but she won't get rid of) >>

I thought that was S.O.P., David ?!?   LOL !!

<< that you could probably use for jack stands. >>

Jumping gorillas ONLY !!!!  <VBG>

Ed

From darrellw at ipns.com  Sun Aug  8 17:00:48 2010
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:00:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
Message-ID: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>

Hi,

I posted a while back about some shop lights that I had that were failing.  To
recap, the lights would work fine, one or both of the bulbs would eventually
go out (this is over months/years).  Sometimes re-seating the bulb would help,
sometimes a new bulb would work.  Eventually, nothing would light in the
fixture (these were 4', 2-T8 fixtures, electronic ballast).  None of the ideas
offered seemed to help, so I ended up replacing serval of the fixtures, and
most of the bulbs.

Well, this past week two more (of the original fixtures) started to fail.  I
went to buy some more fixtures, but Home Depot was out.  Last time I had
considered just replacing the ballast, but a new ballast was $19, the fixture
was $21, so I didn't.  Anyway, I decided to try replacing the ballast this
time.  The replacement ballast is nearly twice the size of the stock ballast,
and twice as heavy.  It wired up a bit differently (the original had more
separate wires, the replacement mostly wires each end of the bulbs together).
But it fired right up with the new ballast, and even seems brighter.  What's
more, I decided to try the "bad" bulbs (ones that no longer worked even in the
best of the original fixtures), and every one of them was fine with the
replacement ballast!  I'm glad I hadn't had time to take them to the hazardous
waste drop off.

-Darrell

--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS CTC67956L
Vancouver, WA, USA

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Aug  8 17:24:54 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 19:24:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any experience with this HF Compressor?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008081921230.6369@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Anyone have any experience with HF's US General 5hp/60 gal two stage 
compressor?

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-hp-60-gallon-165-psi-two-stage-air-compressor-93274.html

Between the sale price and a 20% coupon, it'd be $640 before tax.  I'm 
having a very hard time justifying something like a $1400 Champion 5hp/60 
gal with this out there...

I've heard that they're actually put together by a US company.

Anyway, I'll probably give it a go, unless I see a bunch of folks that 
have had a bad experience with this compressor.

Mark

(I know the plusses and minuses of HF in general btw... I'm looking for 
experinces with their bigger compressors here.)

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Aug  8 18:21:21 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 20:21:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any experience with this HF Compressor?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008081921230.6369@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008081921230.6369@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C95F8A79F6244C4BF4355144E0CBB2A@EricJRussellPC>

I often browse the forums at Garage Journal (www.garagejournal.com).

Here's a thread a quick search found:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64845&highlight=harbor+freight+5hp+compressor

<quote>
-
I have the HF 5hp 2 stage 60 gallon compressor. While I have only had it for 
a week I love it so far. You can definitely believe the air delivery 
specs--it has no problem keeping up with any of my air tools including the 
paint I used yesterday or my sand blaster.
-
That's the unit I upgraded to last year. I gave it it's first real workout 
sandblasting last week. It kept up pretty good, I rarely had to wait for it 
while blasting some inner fenders, by the time I would readjust the 
wheelwell to a new angle, it would be ready. As for air tools, it catches up 
and shuts off with air ratchets, impacts, and 3" cutoff. I haven't really 
tested it with the DA, that's coming soon!
-
My buddy got one of these on the "el cheapo" special noted above. Still 
can't believe how cheap it was. He has been running a small two man body 
shop with it since then and it seems to be a nice compressor. No problems so 
far.
-
</quote>


Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
> Anyone have any experience with HF's US General 5hp/60 gal two stage
> compressor?

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Sun Aug  8 20:18:45 2010
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 19:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any experience with this HF Compressor?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008081921230.6369@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <393773.97218.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What are you going to use it for?  Check the CFM's on your tools to see if the
HF model will run them.


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

--- On Sun, 8/8/10, Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com> wrote:


From: Mark Andy <marka at maracing.com>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any experience with this HF Compressor?
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010, 4:24 PM


Howdy,

Anyone have any experience with HF's US General 5hp/60 gal two stage
compressor?

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-hp-60-gallon-165-psi-two-stage-air-compressor-
93274.html

Between the sale price and a 20% coupon, it'd be $640 before tax.  I'm having
a very hard time justifying something like a $1400 Champion 5hp/60 gal with
this out there...

I've heard that they're actually put together by a US company.

Anyway, I'll probably give it a go, unless I see a bunch of folks that have
had a bad experience with this compressor.

Mark

(I know the plusses and minuses of HF in general btw... I'm looking for
experinces with their bigger compressors here.)
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 23:51:13 2010
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 01:51:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20100809015024.07f93e68@yahoo.com>

ballast info?


At 08/08/10 at 19:00, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Darrell 
Walker's keyboard and said:

>Anyway, I decided to try replacing the ballast this
>time.  The replacement ballast is nearly twice the size of the stock ballast,
>and twice as heavy.  It wired up a bit differently (the original had more
>separate wires, the replacement mostly wires each end of the bulbs together).
>But it fired right up with the new ballast, and even seems brighter.  What's
>more, I decided to try the "bad" bulbs (ones that no longer worked even in the
>best of the original fixtures), and every one of them was fine with the
>replacement ballast!  I'm glad I hadn't had time to take them to the hazardous
>waste drop off.


Cheers!

From marka at maracing.com  Mon Aug  9 08:07:33 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:07:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Any experience with this HF Compressor?
In-Reply-To: <393773.97218.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <393773.97218.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008091004090.7509@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010, Frank Vantacich wrote:
> What are you going to use it for?  Check the CFM's on your tools to see 
> if the HF model will run them.

General "serious hobbiest" usage... Small blast cabinet, cut offs, 
impacts, etc.  One big driver is that the RV wants 110psi in the tires and 
my current ~20 year old Craftsman direct drive setup is single stage and 
doesn't kick on the compressor until pressure falls to ~90psi.  That means 
bleeding air to kick on the compressor, fill after pressure is high 
enough, repeat.

I also don't really have enough air to run cutoffs or the blast cabinet 
for very long.

At this price, if this one doesn't have quite enough air I could run two 
of them with a manifold setup cheaper than one Champion!

Mark

From darrellw at ipns.com  Mon Aug  9 08:16:34 2010
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 07:16:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20100809015024.07f93e68@yahoo.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20100809015024.07f93e68@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <60583B7C-704D-4FA4-A035-A328DE121498@ipns.com>

Since several have asked:

> The new ones are Sylvania (the original were Sunpak).  The model number is
"QTP 2X32T8/UNV ISN-SC" (which mostly is just the rating, for two 32W T8
bulbs).  I got them at Home Depot.

The replacements are also electronic.

-Darrell

On Aug 8, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Richard Beels wrote:

> ballast info?
>
>
> At 08/08/10 at 19:00, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Darrell Walker's
keyboard and said:
>
>> Anyway, I decided to try replacing the ballast this
>> time.  The replacement ballast is nearly twice the size of the stock
ballast,
>> and twice as heavy.  It wired up a bit differently (the original had more
>> separate wires, the replacement mostly wires each end of the bulbs
together).
>> But it fired right up with the new ballast, and even seems brighter.
What's
>> more, I decided to try the "bad" bulbs (ones that no longer worked even in
the
>> best of the original fixtures), and every one of them was fine with the
>> replacement ballast!  I'm glad I hadn't had time to take them to the
hazardous
>> waste drop off.
>
>
> Cheers!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw at ipns.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 08:55:28 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:55:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <60583B7C-704D-4FA4-A035-A328DE121498@ipns.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20100809015024.07f93e68@yahoo.com>
	<60583B7C-704D-4FA4-A035-A328DE121498@ipns.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=NSVCNMoF7G94bLuq0YOAj40Jw4ftL-3uMkCS0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Darrell Walker <darrellw at ipns.com> wrote:
> Since several have asked:
>
>> The new ones are Sylvania (the original were Sunpak). B The model number
is
> "QTP 2X32T8/UNV ISN-SC" (which mostly is just the rating, for two 32W T8
> bulbs). B I got them at Home Depot.
>
> The replacements are also electronic.
>

If I remember right, the sylvania QTP ballasts won't run T12 tubes.
(or won't well, at least).
Not a problem if you already had t8 tubes, but annoying for
retrofitting.  Other than that, they're very nice (I've put in a few).
 Properly deal with tube failures (the others work normally!), and
start well in cold weather.  They're also usable on 240 and 277 v
circuits, if you happen to have any.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Aug  9 12:54:07 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:54:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <60583B7C-704D-4FA4-A035-A328DE121498@ipns.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20100809015024.07f93e68@yahoo.com>
	<60583B7C-704D-4FA4-A035-A328DE121498@ipns.com>
Message-ID: <4C604ECF.9000607@hornesystemstx.com>

  Please let us know how the ballast holds up. Over the last year I've 
replaced about 40 Sylvania ballasts in about 50 new fixtures. They died 
before the lamps did! I installed GE ballasts one at a time and have had 
no problems with them burning out. I am finally replacing lamps before 
ballasts! Our fixtures are three lamp, 32W T8's Home Depot gets about 
$27 for the GE ballasts.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Darrell Walker, On 8/9/2010 9:16 AM:
> Since several have asked:
>
>> The new ones are Sylvania (the original were Sunpak).  The model number is
> "QTP 2X32T8/UNV ISN-SC" (which mostly is just the rating, for two 32W T8
> bulbs).  I got them at Home Depot.
>
> The replacements are also electronic.
>
> -Darrell
>
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Richard Beels wrote:
>
>> ballast info?
>>
>>
>> At 08/08/10 at 19:00, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Darrell Walker's
> keyboard and said:
>>> Anyway, I decided to try replacing the ballast this
>>> time.  The replacement ballast is nearly twice the size of the stock
> ballast,
>>> and twice as heavy.  It wired up a bit differently (the original had more
>>> separate wires, the replacement mostly wires each end of the bulbs
> together).
>>> But it fired right up with the new ballast, and even seems brighter.
> What's
>>> more, I decided to try the "bad" bulbs (ones that no longer worked even in
> the
>>> best of the original fixtures), and every one of them was fine with the
>>> replacement ballast!  I'm glad I hadn't had time to take them to the
> hazardous
>>> waste drop off.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw at ipns.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Aug 11 16:27:14 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:27:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Problem with refrigerator
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>

Hey gang,

I've tried to get some help from several of the appliance repair forums, to no
avail.  So I thought I'd ask here, as there's nothing that someone here doesn't
know.

I have a GE vertical (refrig on top, freezer drawer on botom) model 
PDS20SBRARSS refrig.  It's about 4 yrs old and has worked great since we
bought it.

Last year we moved it over about 2 feet, swapped it's position with a set of
cabinets.  Since then, it has started leaking water about once a 
month. When I notice water on the floor in front of it, I open the 
freezer and see that there is ice covering the bottom of the freezer 
compartment. Otherwise it is working fine, the freezer area stays 
about 0 and the refrig area about 37 deg F.

I don't think it's a defrost problem, otherwise the 2 compartments would not
stay cold.

This unit does not have an ice maker. So no water is connected to the refrig.

I think it might be a clogged drip tube, but I don't see a drip tube 
(or hole)  when
I look in the freezer.

Nor do I see a drip pan looking under the refrig from the front.

Anyone have any ideas?

TIA

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Aug 11 17:07:45 2010
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:07:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Problem with refrigerator
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
Message-ID: <005601cb39aa$023c4940$06b4dbc0$@ameritech.net>

I'd be willing to bet that the refrigerator's defrost drain hose is plugged
up.  They tend to grow bacterial slime which eventually plugs the line, so
when the defrost cycle produces water, it can't drain normally to the
evaporator pan on the very bottom of the refrigerator (below the freezer
drawer).

It's also possible that something got kinked during the move to cause the
same problem, but those drain lines do tend to plug over time, and it's very
possibly just a coincidence that it happened now.  The only thing I wonder
about is why it's only once a month - refrigerators usually defrost every
day or two, based on a timer.  Maybe yours defrosts based upon a sensor and
you're in a very dry climate ??

Karl


-----Original Message-----
John T. Blair
Subject: [Shop-talk] Problem with refrigerator


I have a GE vertical (refrig on top, freezer drawer on botom) model
PDS20SBRARSS refrig.  It's about 4 yrs old and has worked great since we
bought it.

Last year we moved it over about 2 feet, swapped it's position with a set of
cabinets.  Since then, it has started leaking water about once a month. When
I notice water on the floor in front of it, I open the freezer and see that
there is ice covering the bottom of the freezer compartment. Otherwise it is
working fine, the freezer area stays about 0 and the refrig area about 37
deg F.

I don't think it's a defrost problem, otherwise the 2 compartments would not
stay cold.

This unit does not have an ice maker. So no water is connected to the
refrig.

I think it might be a clogged drip tube, but I don't see a drip tube (or
hole)  when I look in the freezer.

Nor do I see a drip pan looking under the refrig from the front.

Anyone have any ideas?

TIA

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/kvacek at ameritech.net

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Aug 11 17:07:44 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:07:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Problem with refrigerator
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C632D40.6040707@hornesystemstx.com>

  John,

The drip tube is usually hidden below the coils inside the freezer. It 
ends up in a pan under and outside the unit, so take the kick off and 
see if you can find the other end of the hose. Run a wire up through it 
and see if there are any blocks.

Another thing that may be causing the ice in the freezer, is a leaky 
seal on the freezer door. If the door got warped during the move, it may 
not be sealing all the way around. Try putting a dollar bill between the 
door and the freezer body and see how hard it is to pull it out all the 
way around the door. You may find an area where it pulls out much easier 
than others.

Good luck

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake John T. Blair, On 8/11/2010 5:27 PM:
> Hey gang,
>
> I've tried to get some help from several of the appliance repair 
> forums, to no
> avail.  So I thought I'd ask here, as there's nothing that someone 
> here doesn't
> know.
>
> I have a GE vertical (refrig on top, freezer drawer on botom) model 
> PDS20SBRARSS refrig.  It's about 4 yrs old and has worked great since we
> bought it.
>
> Last year we moved it over about 2 feet, swapped it's position with a 
> set of
> cabinets.  Since then, it has started leaking water about once a 
> month. When I notice water on the floor in front of it, I open the 
> freezer and see that there is ice covering the bottom of the freezer 
> compartment. Otherwise it is working fine, the freezer area stays 
> about 0 and the refrig area about 37 deg F.
>
> I don't think it's a defrost problem, otherwise the 2 compartments 
> would not
> stay cold.
>
> This unit does not have an ice maker. So no water is connected to the 
> refrig.
>
> I think it might be a clogged drip tube, but I don't see a drip tube 
> (or hole)  when
> I look in the freezer.
>
> Nor do I see a drip pan looking under the refrig from the front.
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> TIA
>
> John
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 17:42:12 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:42:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Problem with refrigerator
In-Reply-To: <4C632D40.6040707@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
	<4C632D40.6040707@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik1U1w9Oy4rdrBjV914GAjfrj5jH9SxDVk0hWpb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
> B John,
>
> The drip tube is usually hidden below the coils inside the freezer. It ends
> up in a pan under and outside the unit, so take the kick off and see if you
> can find the other end of the hose. Run a wire up through it and see if
> there are any blocks.
>
> Another thing that may be causing the ice in the freezer, is a leaky seal
on
> the freezer door. If the door got warped during the move, it may not be
> sealing all the way around. Try putting a dollar bill between the door and
> the freezer body and see how hard it is to pull it out all the way around
> the door. You may find an area where it pulls out much easier than others.

Another thing that causes doors not to close properly is if the thing
isn't level.  At least some of the legs will have screw adjusters to
fix that.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 17:52:31 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:52:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Problem with refrigerator
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W220F7FB9133D10D7593D94E1960@phx.gbl>

How about condensation from a damaged seal?
Some models used to have a tray to collect water created  during the
defrosting cycle.


Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Aug 11 19:19:23 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:19:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Problem with refrigerator
In-Reply-To: <4C632D40.6040707@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20100811182117.0451dd18@cox.net>
	<4C632D40.6040707@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4C634C1B.7040908@xxiii.com>

On 8/11/2010 7:07 PM, Pat Horne wrote:
> Another thing that may be causing the ice in the freezer, is a leaky
> seal on the freezer door. If the door got warped during the move, it may
> not be sealing all the way around. Try putting a dollar bill between the
> door and the freezer body and see how hard it is to pull it out all the

I think Pat is making a good call there!  If there is any leak, you are 
going to get a bunch of condensation inside.  More than the 
refrigeration and defrost can pull out.  Check that.

Other than that, I don't have any good ideas.  Sears' web site has good 
appliance diagrams and semi decent prices on parts, and they show you 
the shipping charges before you go through too much hassle.  they 
display actual part numbers that you can google around for better prices 
on.  I usually go to them and just order;  even if you find a slightly 
better price elsewhere, the shipping probably blows the deal.

I have a word doc' of fridge diagnosis tips I sent my dad that I could 
forward if anyone wants.

-Wayne

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Aug 11 23:38:03 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:38:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] So you "think"...
Message-ID: <4C6388BB.6070600@justbrits.com>

/PCtEsJ: Permission denied

From shop at justbrits.com  Thu Aug 12 03:50:33 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 04:50:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] So you "think"...
Message-ID: <4C63C3E9.4040806@justbrits.com>

...yer having a bad day whilst on the way to Ortho Doc because

back has gotten WORSE almost on 6th anniversary of org. prob !!

http://www.justbrits.com/zz/wreck08_11.html

At least the guy that RAN a Yield sign at about 10+ OVER posted
speed limit jumps out of his Land Cruiser yelling:

"I'm sorry !! It was my fault !!" at least 100 times, even to the
two [2] Officers that answered call - both LONG time pals<G> !!

So ya suppose the guy knew he had a 'prob' when as he volunteered to
drive me home was told by the Investigating Officer,
"NO, I will be taking Ed home, sir !!"

Damned near laughed out loud 'cause the look on the guys face was a
Master Card Priceless candidate !!!

Ed

.

__,_._,___

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Aug 13 21:47:49 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:47:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
Message-ID: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>

Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.

If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a floor-to-ceiling
nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you build a square cabinet
and shim it level and use molding to cover the gaps, or literally build it in
place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be parallel and the shelves (held in
place with columns of holes and shelf pins) probably not level, but there
would be no gaps?

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Fri Aug 13 22:28:02 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (BJNoSHOV8)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:28:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4C661B52.3010009@tx.rr.com>

This seems to be a matter of opinion more than a matter of right vs. 
wrong.  Personally I would probably go with the build it square/parallel 
and cover the gaps with molding, but mostly it would be a matter of what 
it looks like or would look like one way vs. the other and you haven't 
given us enough information to go on.

If you build it square then you know it will function correctly, IOW the 
shelves can adjust up and down and still fit properly.  OTOH I can see 
where I might prefer to build it exactly to fit to eliminate the gaps.  
I would have to see it in person to really choose.


> Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.
>
> If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a floor-to-ceiling
> nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you build a square cabinet
> and shim it level and use molding to cover the gaps, or literally build it in
> place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be parallel and the shelves (held in
> place with columns of holes and shelf pins) probably not level, but there
> would be no gaps?
> ____________________

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 13 22:44:59 2010
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:44:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4C661F4B.5000801@earthlink.net>

Jim - I would not build it crooked unless it was a dark closet that I 
just needed quick and cheap.

If other people will see it, the insides of the uprights should be 
square and parallel.  The easy way would be to build it square, shim it, 
and cover the gaps with molding. 

The best looking way, which you didn't mention, would be to make a frame 
a little wide then scribe it to fit snuggly without needing molding 
along the sides.  I'd still expect molding along the floor and ceiling.

Brian

Jim Franklin wrote:
> Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.
>
> If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a floor-to-ceiling
> nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you build a square cabinet
> and shim it level and use molding to cover the gaps, or literally build it in
> place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be parallel and the shelves (held in
> place with columns of holes and shelf pins) probably not level, but there
> would be no gaps?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bk13 at earthlink.net

From marka at maracing.com  Fri Aug 13 22:55:34 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:55:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008140055040.5088@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
> If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a 
> floor-to-ceiling nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you 
> build a square cabinet and shim it level and use molding to cover the 
> gaps, or literally build it in place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be 
> parallel and the shelves (held in place with columns of holes and shelf 
> pins) probably not level, but there would be no gaps?

I'd ask what the buyer/owner wanted me to do.

Mark

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Aug 13 23:19:22 2010
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:19:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <15A2A2108172403F89157992353EA1F2@hpa1477c>

Build it square.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:48 PM
To: shop-talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll

Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.

If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a floor-to-ceiling
nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you build a square cabinet
and shim it level and use molding to cover the gaps, or literally build it
in
place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be parallel and the shelves (held in
place with columns of holes and shelf pins) probably not level, but there
would be no gaps?
_______________________________________________

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From shiples at comcast.net  Sat Aug 14 01:08:39 2010
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:08:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100814000315.04231c00@mail.comcast.net>

At 11:47 PM 8/13/2010 -0400, Jim Franklin wrote:
>Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.
>
>If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a floor-to-ceiling
>nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you build a square cabinet
>and shim it level and use molding to cover the gaps,

This is the right way, but costs more...

>or literally build it in
>place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be parallel and the shelves (held in
>place with columns of holes and shelf pins) probably not level, but there
>would be no gaps?

This is quick and dirty.  If you're limited by time and budget (or don't
really care) , this make perfect sense.

>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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>Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/shiples at comcast.net

From jem at milleredp.com  Sat Aug 14 01:36:18 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:36:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
Message-ID: <4C664772.2040502@milleredp.com>

>> place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be parallel and the shelves (held in
>> place with columns of holes and shelf pins) probably not level, but there
>> would be no gaps?
>
> This is quick and dirty.  If you're limited by time and budget (or don't
> really care) , this make perfect sense.

Yeah, and if you're like me every time you look at it you'll curse it.

More importantly, every time the client looks at it, he'll curse it too.

John.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Aug 14 05:29:18 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 07:29:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4C667E0E.8090001@xxiii.com>

On 8/13/2010 11:47 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a floor-to-ceiling
> nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you build a square cabinet
> and shim it level and use molding to cover the gaps, or literally build it in

First I'd want to determine why the structure was sagging, and if it was 
still moving or had come to a stopping point.  Guessing it's old enough 
you think it has stopped.

I'd go for build it square and plumb, and blend or hide to mating lines 
to match the not-square surroundings.

-Wayne

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Aug 14 06:30:56 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:30:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <F794E8C9333D43B5A1AC9387CE174EBC@EricJRussellPC>

> Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions. 

Build it the way your wife wants it...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sat Aug 14 07:09:03 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:09:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4C66956F.7080005@hornesystemstx.com>

  Jim,

I've done both, depending on the situation.

First of all, I assume that this is for your home. If it is for someone 
else, do what they want after explaining and possibly building a mock up 
of their way, and possibly yours.

Second, how far is it out of square/plumb? I built kitchen cabinets in 
my house with the lower cabinets level and shimmed the kick to fit the 
floor. The upper cabinets were another matter. Over the 10' run the 
ceiling was out of level by almost 2". I set the bottoms to be level, 
and the top to match the ceiling, then made the doors to fit, with the 
top of each door at a slight angle to match the ceiling. You can't tell 
that they are not level.

I also had a built in shelving unit at the end of a opening between the 
kitchen and hallway. You could see it from the front door, across the 
living room.  Problem was that the walls were not plumb, making the 
shelving look crooked. I built a picture frame to go around the shelves 
that was installed to match the walls, with the top and bottom level. 
Could hardly tell that there was a problem. The walls were out of plumb 
by about 3/4".

Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 8/13/2010 10:47 PM:
> Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.
>
> If you were asked to create a built-in storage cabinet in a floor-to-ceiling
> nook, and you knew the nook wasn't square, would you build a square cabinet
> and shim it level and use molding to cover the gaps, or literally build it in
> place, knowing the uprights wouldn't be parallel and the shelves (held in
> place with columns of holes and shelf pins) probably not level, but there
> would be no gaps?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sat Aug 14 07:09:41 2010
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:09:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
Message-ID: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>

Yesterday evening, I wandered around my house with my cheap non-contact voltage
sensor with the idea of locating the 12/2 romex within some walls without 
actually opening said walls.  The results have left me scratching my head and 
perhaps the EEs and electricians who read this list can enlighten me.

Seems most of the outer walls and especially the ceilings directly below
the roof indicate the presence of an A/C voltage (sensitivity is supposedly
70V-440V).  This happens even in places where I'm sure there are no wires
within several yards and where the only metal objects would be nails in the
aforementioned wall or roof. The ranges vary: some areas the sensor will begin 
chirping about 12" from the surface; in other places it won't chirp until a few 
inches from the surface.  This little sensor even begins chirping when held near
my kitchen countertop.

As I understand, this class of sensor actually measures capacitive coupling
to ground through the operator (ie. me).  But that in itself makes me scratch
my head: I'm wearing tennis shoes and standing on non-conductive carpet so I 
should be floating (right?) so what, exactly, is coupling in this case?  

Fluke's website suggests that in situations where you're floating (standing 
on a wooden ladder, etc) that best practice is to ground oneself with one hand
while using the sensor in the other.  When I tried this, my sensor detected 
A/C *everywhere* -- including open air four feet from the nearest surface -- which 
is somewhat less than useful.

So clearly I'm using this little sensor incorrectly or expecting it to work in
ways that it cannot.  Anybody care to enlighten me as to the correct way to use 
one?  Is this guy really reporting a 70V+ A/C potential difference 12" from a 
wall that contains no electrical wires?  I could understand perhaps a volt or 
two due to the aluminum gutters and drip edges acting as antennas but even then 
I'd expect to detect it only near those structures.


JM

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Aug 14 16:11:24 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:11:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com>

On 8/14/2010 9:09 AM, Jimmie Mayfield wrote:
> Seems most of the outer walls and especially the ceilings directly below
> the roof indicate the presence of an A/C voltage (sensitivity is supposedly
> 70V-440V).  This happens even in places where I'm sure there are no wires

Weird.  And it's a Fluke meter?  That should not be a POS.  Maybe its 
batteries are bad?  Is there some zeroing or calibration procedure you 
overlooked?  Or it's just plain malfunctioning?  Do you have old style 
plaster over metal mesh lath?  Could be picking that up.

-Wayne

From shop at justbrits.com  Sat Aug 14 18:33:25 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:33:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org> <4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>

<< Weird.  And it's a Fluke meter?  That should not be a POS.>>

Gotta agree, Wayne !!

Jimmie, something is definitely wrong <G> someplace <VBG> !!

Like Wayne, batteries would be my 1st 'suspect'.  Is the
meter new and you used batts that came with ??  Or just
haven't used for a year or longer ??

Ed

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sat Aug 14 22:11:31 2010
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 00:11:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>
	<4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com> <4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 07:33:25PM -0500, Shop at  Just Brits  wrote:
> << Weird.  And it's a Fluke meter?  That should not be a POS.>>
> 
> Gotta agree, Wayne !!
> 
> Jimmie, something is definitely wrong <G> someplace <VBG> !!
> 
> Like Wayne, batteries would be my 1st 'suspect'.  Is the
> meter new and you used batts that came with ??  Or just
> haven't used for a year or longer ??

Sorry.  Didn't mean to imply this was a Fluke-branded meter.  It's actually
a GE-branded meter I've had for about a year but had only used once before.  
Couldn't have cost more than $10.  The Fluke stuff came up during a Google
search as I was trying to figure out how to interpret this meter's readings.

I've tried a couple pairs of new batteries with similar results.

I see a Fluke meter on Amazon for under $25 and it looks like Lowe's
has a detector made by Greenlee for $16.  At those prices, I think I'll just
grab one of these and put the current detector aside.  If the new one
yields similar results, I think I'll call in the Ghostbusters.

Jimmie

From shop at justbrits.com  Sat Aug 14 22:46:39 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:46:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>
	<4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com> <4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>
	<20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <4C67712F.4010801@justbrits.com>

<< ...detector made by Greenlee for $16. >>

Jimmie, that should be just fine as Greenlee manufacturers
a LOT of electrical system components !!  VERY respected
'name' in the field.

Shoot, at THAT price I think I'll get one of my own <G><G> !!

Don't need much of an excuse to add stuff to tool set <VBG>  !!

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Aug 15 07:42:01 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:42:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 13, 2010, at 11:47 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:

> Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.
>

Thanks for all your answers. The client is an ex with otherworldly tastes and
methodologies. I built a cabinet to stand the ravages of time, children and
Romans. Painstakingly true to the 1/32nd". And the first thing she says after
sliding it into the nook, "Why are there gaps? I wanted a built-in."  It never
occurred to me that anyone would build a non-square cabinet. Shelves wouldn't
adjust, things would slide down the gaps behind them, etc. This is why they
invented trim molding and caulk.

This is an 85 year old New England house with plaster walls. Nothing is
square, there are no studs where there should be, etc. (There are *loose
bricks* in the walls. Early 1900s sound damping?)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 08:10:03 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:10:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
	<02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikU4KDP0cqigKPTzgR9YqcZohbcKVK6naNyMg7K@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 11:47 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
>
>> Having a disagreement with someone and thought I'd solicit opinions.
>>
>
> Thanks for all your answers. The client is an ex with otherworldly tastes
and
> methodologies. I built a cabinet to stand the ravages of time, children and
> Romans. Painstakingly true to the 1/32nd". And the first thing she says
after
> sliding it into the nook, "Why are there gaps? I wanted a built-in." B It
never
> occurred to me that anyone would build a non-square cabinet. Shelves
wouldn't
> adjust, things would slide down the gaps behind them, etc. This is why they
> invented trim molding and caulk.
>

And scribing and jig saws.

> This is an 85 year old New England house with plaster walls. Nothing is
> square, there are no studs where there should be, etc. (There are *loose
> bricks* in the walls. Early 1900s sound damping?)

Filling the gaps between studs?  It's fireproofing.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Aug 15 13:23:10 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
	<02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008151522220.1998@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 15 Aug 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
> Thanks for all your answers. The client is an ex

First mistake.

:-)

Sorry to hear about the heartache.  Did you come to a resolution?

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug 15 15:36:46 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 14:36:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
	<02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <036901cb3cc1$f69d74e0$0301a8c0@randall>

> And the first 
> thing she says after
> sliding it into the nook, "Why are there gaps? I wanted a 
> built-in."  It never
> occurred to me that anyone would build a non-square cabinet. 

Incomplete specification, IMO.  If she wanted "period correct", she should
have said so.

> Shelves wouldn't
> adjust, things would slide down the gaps behind them, etc. 

"Period correct" would mean fixed shelves cut to fit, which pretty much
solves those problems.

> Nothing is
> square, there are no studs where there should be, etc. 

Could always be worse.  Many of the walls in my parent's house are solid
brick, 12-15" thick.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 19:11:42 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:11:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Construction opinion poll
In-Reply-To: <036901cb3cc1$f69d74e0$0301a8c0@randall>
References: <46AF61E0-2301-448D-8EB9-6753355B6C14@groupwbench.org>
	<02340BC8-9F83-4731-B6AF-1CA4FD4AB741@groupwbench.org>
	<036901cb3cc1$f69d74e0$0301a8c0@randall>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimAbCZG1g2=xbPGn_EFdSaVaaAG7vn6V7e61bXv@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> Could always be worse. B Many of the walls in my parent's house are solid
> brick, 12-15" thick.
>

Easy to hang things, at least!

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 15:00:47 2010
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:00:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Importing car from Canada?
Message-ID: <SNT127-W479049144519B4927DAA779A9B0@phx.gbl>

Has anyone done this?

I'm toying with the idea of buying a 79 VW Rabbit, Engine has been swapped,
speedo is in km, not mph, but otherwise it's a solid car, clear title, etc.

I'm just curious how it might go down trying to get it across the border and
then the task of registering it in the States.  I've read some of the docs
available on doing this and it seems pretty straight forward, there are fees
and paperwork I'm sure, but still a little nerve wracking for me, as I would
most likely have it shipped at a pretty good expense from BC to Philadelphia.

-PJ

From shop at justbrits.com  Mon Aug 16 18:28:11 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:28:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Importing car from Canada?
In-Reply-To: <SNT127-W479049144519B4927DAA779A9B0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT127-W479049144519B4927DAA779A9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C69D79B.60503@justbrits.com>

PJ, IMHO the word "import" and

"Engine has been swapped,"

would END any idea I might have to do what you are
thinking about??

Can you say "nightmare" ???

Ed

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Aug 16 19:48:33 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:48:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Importing car from Canada?
In-Reply-To: <SNT127-W479049144519B4927DAA779A9B0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT127-W479049144519B4927DAA779A9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <081301cb3dae$4d8cad60$e8a60820$@rr.com>

Does it have the US emissions and safety stickers on it?  If not, getting it
certified will cost many times the value of the car.

If it does have them, you may still need to post a bond equal to the value;
plus the emission controls (including the engine) must be "restored to it's
original EPA-certified configuration".

As Ed said, I wouldn't even think about it for something as plebian as a 79
Rabbit.  Just the required "DOT Registered Importer" is likely to charge you
more than you could possibly save on the car.

http://www.bordercenter.org/chem/vehicles.htm

-- Randall 

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Mon Aug 16 21:47:26 2010
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:47:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Importing car from Canada?
In-Reply-To: <4C69D79B.60503@justbrits.com>
References: <SNT127-W479049144519B4927DAA779A9B0@phx.gbl>
	<4C69D79B.60503@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <07BD30A9-CFAA-44BD-9E50-E6599168FA19@comcast.net>

Years ago I swapped an engine in a '68 Ford Fairlane Wagon, then sold the car.
A few years later, the guy told me he had to  junk the car after considerable
effort because he couldn't renew the license and this was in Michigan.

Brian K

On Aug 16, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Shop at Just Brits wrote:

> PJ, IMHO the word "import" and
>
> "Engine has been swapped,"
>
> would END any idea I might have to do what you are
> thinking about??
>
> Can you say "nightmare" ???
>
> Ed

From shiples at comcast.net  Mon Aug 16 22:39:29 2010
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:39:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Importing car from Canada?
In-Reply-To: <SNT127-W479049144519B4927DAA779A9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100816205741.0427b598@mail.comcast.net>

At 05:00 PM 8/16/2010 -0400, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>Has anyone done this?

I imported, built, and registered an English kit car in 1984
I titled and registered a 1965 Lotus7 in 1990.  It had been imported but 
hadn't gone
through US Customs at an unknown date.  It had been flown across the 
Atlantic in
a military cargo plane as the personal property of the pilot.


>I'm toying with the idea of buying a 79 VW Rabbit, Engine has been swapped,
>speedo is in km, not mph, but otherwise it's a solid car, clear title, etc.

My experience and others experience might not apply.  This is a YMMV situation.
This car is 31 years old.  I'm under the impression that the rules change 
when the
car turns 25.

But YOU need to research the laws that apply to your situation.  There are laws
and there are the people who enforce the laws.  My guess is that US Customs
is going to look at the car where and when it comes across the border.  Your
state DMV is going to title and register it.  Depending on their rules you may
have to pass emissions.

In my case, US Customs were more concerned with collecting money than
enforcing safety and/or emissions.  My troubles involved my state DMV.
Both cars eventually passed but I had to explain why they complied.  The
state inspectors were sticklers about lighting.  I had to swap the clearance
lights for legal turn signal lenses, for example.

So research ahead of time with the goal that the car that you import is in
total compliance with the agency which is going to determine whether it
is legal.  And be prepared to have your car examined with a fine tooth comb.
Or ignored totally.  I think the laws are pretty clear, my experience is 
that the
enforcement is variable.  I had to discuss the wall thickness of steel tubing
with a state trooper!  Like either one of us knows enough to rationally
determine what makes a Lotus 7 strong enough for a US road.

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Tue Aug 17 07:52:30 2010
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:52:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>
	<4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com> <4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>
	<20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <20100817135230.GA3006@sackheads.org>

Just an update:

My local Lowe's was out of the Greenlee detectors but they had a couple
Fluke 1AC-A IIs in stock so I grabbed one.  It's interesting that 
lowes.com did not show this meter.  I like that it uses AAA batteries
instead of expensive LR-44s...

Initial tests of the Fluke left me with a mixed opinion.  Sensitivity is much 
lower than my GE detector which is both good and bad.  It was fine on 2- and
3-conductor flat cords but very sporatic on round power cords where
the inner wires are twisted.  At 120V, the tip needs to be within a couple mm
of the conductor so I'm guessing it'll do poorly if the insulation is thick.
So the upshot is if you can identify individual wires, the Fluke can probably
reliably tell you which one is hot (assuming insulation isn't too thick).  But
if you have a bundle or a round cable and need to know if it contains a hot
wire and can't get close to the individual wires, this Fluke isn't the right 
tool.

By contrast, the GE detector's sensitivity is off the scale.  The specs claim
70V-440V but it chirps when held 4 inches from a wire carrying 5VAC (of course,
it chips when held an inch from my kitchen countertop, too, so it's probably
too sensitive).  The result is lots of false positives.  I wish it had a meter,
or perhaps a color-changing LED, to indicate the strength of the E-M field it's
detecting.

Okay.  So on to the strange readings that prompted my original post.  The Fluke
meter doesn't register anything in any of these locations so this is no doubt
an artifact of the super-sensitivity of the GE detector.

Then it occurred to me that I have another way to double-check the results:
a big honkin 22" CRT that's destined for the recycling center.  If there's an 
E-M field near those walls, it should distort the CRT.  Plugged it into
the UPS and my laptop and wheeled it around the room on a chair.  Sure enough,
the CRT showed the tell-tale jitter in several spots.  Almost as if there 
was an induction motor nearby (there isn't).  One of these days when I feel
like doing some drywalling, I'll knock a hole in that wall to see what's
in the attic behind it.

JM

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Tue Aug 17 10:54:33 2010
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:54:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim=e-pu5nVis4zUBDXWsyn-BchiqHWF3E9HGGy+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>
	<4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com> <4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>
	<20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>
	<20100817135230.GA3006@sackheads.org>
	<AANLkTim=e-pu5nVis4zUBDXWsyn-BchiqHWF3E9HGGy+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100817165433.GA26531@sackheads.org>

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:32:38PM -0400, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Jimmie Mayfield
> do you have metal lath walls?  They can do strange things with electro
> magnetic fields, even if they're not directly attached to a source.
> They royally screw up radio performance, for instance.

Would metal lath walls essentially form a Faraday cage?

Nope, no metal lath here.  Only drywall.  Though who knows...maybe the builders 
used some sort of metallic radiant barrier on the attic side of that wall.  Due 
to the design of the house, the only way to access that 30-40sqft of attic space
is to punch through the kneewall.  I probably ought to do it anyway because
I suspect there's not much insulation back there...

JM

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 11:29:45 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:29:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <20100817135230.GA3006@sackheads.org>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>,
	<4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com>
	<4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>, <20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>,
	<20100817135230.GA3006@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W5508AF7DEBF4EEFAE04755E19C0@phx.gbl>

>One of these days when I feel
> like doing some drywalling, I'll knock a hole in that wall to see what's
> in the attic behind it.
>
> JM

Poltergeist?

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 15:36:39 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:36:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Handheld A/C voltage sensor curiosities
In-Reply-To: <20100817165433.GA26531@sackheads.org>
References: <20100814130941.GA94226@sackheads.org>
	<4C67148C.8060409@xxiii.com> <4C6735D5.40003@justbrits.com>
	<20100815041131.GA29141@sackheads.org>
	<20100817135230.GA3006@sackheads.org>
	<AANLkTim=e-pu5nVis4zUBDXWsyn-BchiqHWF3E9HGGy+@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100817165433.GA26531@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimZvoG9YvyyekM+LLcUGXzmgrmFdVYa0CVH3VGb@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Jimmie Mayfield
<mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:32:38PM -0400, David Scheidt wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Jimmie Mayfield
>> do you have metal lath walls? B They can do strange things with electro
>> magnetic fields, even if they're not directly attached to a source.
>> They royally screw up radio performance, for instance.
>
> Would metal lath walls essentially form a Faraday cage?
>

A poor one, as there are enough big holes (doors windows, etc) to let
lots of RF in, but that's the idea.  Farrady cages work by having a
current induced in them, that cancels out the field change.

>


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 16:08:49 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:08:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Darrell Walker <darrellw at ipns.com> wrote:
> B It wired up a bit differently (the original had more
> separate wires, the replacement mostly wires each end of the bulbs
together).

I missed this the first time around, but you mean there's only a blue
wire and a red wire, and not four wires per tube?  That's because
what've you've got is an "instant start" fixture.  It just provides a
high (1000 V or more) voltage when it's switched on, which is enough
to strike an arc in the tube directly.  That's not good for tube life,
but if you're only turning them on once a day, and they run three or
more hours at a shot, generally not a problem.  If you turn them on
and off a dozen times a day, you'll kill tubes pretty quickly, and
would benefit from a "rapid start" ballast, which provides a timed
pre-heat to get the bulb ready to strike.  They cost more, though.

> But it fired right up with the new ballast, and even seems brighter.
B What's
> more, I decided to try the "bad" bulbs (ones that no longer worked even in
the
> best of the original fixtures), and every one of them was fine with the
> replacement ballast! B I'm glad I hadn't had time to take them to the
hazardous
> waste drop off.
>
> -Darrell
>
> --
> Darrell Walker
> 66 TR4A IRS CTC67956L
> Vancouver, WA, USA
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation B $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shop at justbrits.com  Wed Aug 18 17:02:59 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:02:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6C66A3.40008@justbrits.com>


From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug 18 17:29:47 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:29:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>

> If you turn them on
> and off a dozen times a day, you'll kill tubes pretty quickly,

I guess "pretty quickly" is a relative term ... I've got instant start T12
bulbs & (mostly) mag ballasts in my garage, and probably half the bulbs have
never been changed since we moved in some 20 years ago.  

One of the kitchen lights is as Darrell described : electronic "instant
start" ballasts driving T8 bulbs.  It gets turned on & off many times per
day, but was only installed about 4 years ago, so no idea how long the bulbs
will last.

I agree that doing "instant start" on a bulb not designed for it will
quickly kill the bulb (I once built a fluorescent strobe light that would
kill bulbs in a few days); but the garage T12 bulbs are designed for it
(only one pin per end), and it's my understanding that the T8 bulbs are as
well (even though they have two pins per end).

-- Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 18:39:54 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:39:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
	<0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> If you turn them on
>> and off a dozen times a day, you'll kill tubes pretty quickly,
>
> I guess "pretty quickly" is a relative term ... I've got instant start T12
> bulbs & (mostly) mag ballasts in my garage, and probably half the bulbs
have
> never been changed since we moved in some 20 years ago.
>
> One of the kitchen lights is as Darrell described : electronic "instant
> start" ballasts driving T8 bulbs. B It gets turned on & off many times per
> day, but was only installed about 4 years ago, so no idea how long the
bulbs
> will last.
>
> I agree that doing "instant start" on a bulb not designed for it will
> quickly kill the bulb (I once built a fluorescent strobe light that would
> kill bulbs in a few days); but the garage T12 bulbs are designed for it
> (only one pin per end), and it's my understanding that the T8 bulbs are as
> well (even though they have two pins per end).

The last time I looked at a spec sheet, there were four numbers, for 3
and 12 hour run times, using IS and RS ballasts.  The IS life time was
about 50% of the RS for 3 hour run time, and about 80% for 12 hour.
I'd expect it to be worse for 1 hour run times.  I'm willing to put up
with that, for the most part.  I like lights that come on when I flip
the switch in my living spaces.


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Aug 18 19:51:00 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:51:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
	<0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>

> The last time I looked at a spec sheet, there were four numbers, for 3
> and 12 hour run times, using IS and RS ballasts.  The IS life time was
> about 50% of the RS for 3 hour run time, and about 80% for 12 hour.

Ok, this is the first T8 spec sheet I found.  It gives only two numbers (for 3
and 12 hour run times), saying they apply for rapid start, programmed start
and instant start ballasts.

http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/fluor/pdf/p-5338e.pdf

They do quote "competitor" data showing somewhat shorter bulb life with
instant start, but the difference is more like 20-25%, not 50%.  No doubt it
would get worse with shorter cycles, but that still doesn't necessarily mean
it's better to leave the light on when you're not using it.
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/myths/fluorescent_lights.html

-- Randall

From darrellw at ipns.com  Thu Aug 19 00:22:19 2010
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:22:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
	<0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>
	<0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <E2F774FD-DB8E-49A5-B440-18D9AA52F605@ipns.com>

Thanks for the additional information regarding instant vs rapid start.  I
checked the new ballasts, and they are definitely marked instant start.  I
check the bulb packaging, and the only indication was that the life was rated
for instant start ballast.  I checked the box for the fixture, and is said
"starts instantly", which isn't quite "instant start" in my mind.  The
original ballasts just said "cold starting", but based on the wiring, they
might be rapid start, though it doesn't seem to exactly match the wiring
diagrams I've found for those, either.

--
Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS CTC67956L
Vancouver, WA, USA

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Aug 19 08:21:50 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 7:21:50 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
Message-ID: <20100819102151.BRF3M.379692.root@mp16>

is this thing on? Bueller? Bueller?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 19 09:35:40 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:35:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
In-Reply-To: <20100819102151.BRF3M.379692.root@mp16>
References: <20100819102151.BRF3M.379692.root@mp16>
Message-ID: <0ca701cb3fb4$2e742d60$8b5c8820$@rr.com>

> is this thing on? Bueller? Bueller?

Dave's not here!

-- Randall 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 09:51:58 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:51:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
	<0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>
	<0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikxJuLAK8BS17uSKYgQLV76cUdrccA4iSFMW8Hb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> The last time I looked at a spec sheet, there were four numbers, for 3
>> and 12 hour run times, using IS and RS ballasts. B The IS life time was
>> about 50% of the RS for 3 hour run time, and about 80% for 12 hour.
>
> Ok, this is the first T8 spec sheet I found. B It gives only two numbers
(for 3
> and 12 hour run times), saying they apply for rapid start, programmed start
> and instant start ballasts.
>
> http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/fluor/pdf/p-5338e.pdf
>

http://genet.gelighting.com/LightProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=COMMERCIALSPECPA
GE&PRODUCTCODE=25611&BreadCrumbValues=CATG,_Lamps_Linear%20Fluorescent_Straig
ht%20Linear_T8&SearchFieldCode=null

These are the tubes I use.  21000 hours instant start, three hour run
time.  30,000 rapid start, three hour run time.  30% reduction.  I'm
not going to worry about it; 21,000 hours is 9.5 years at six hours a
day.


> They do quote "competitor" data showing somewhat shorter bulb life with

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 19 11:23:49 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:23:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikxJuLAK8BS17uSKYgQLV76cUdrccA4iSFMW8Hb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
	<0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>
	<0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTikxJuLAK8BS17uSKYgQLV76cUdrccA4iSFMW8Hb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0ce601cb3fc3$4b1f0d90$e15d28b0$@rr.com>

David wrote :
> http://genet.gelighting.com/LightProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=COMMERCIAL
> SPECPAGE&PRODUCTCODE=25611&BreadCrumbValues=CATG,_Lamps_Linear%20Fluore
> scent_Straight%20Linear_T8&SearchFieldCode=null
>
> These are the tubes I use.  21000 hours instant start, three hour run
> time.  30,000 rapid start, three hour run time.  30% reduction.

Thanks, David.  That link again : http://tinyurl.com/259zbyo

Looks like the 'best' setup is a "programmed start" ballast, which GE claims
is visually the same as "instant start" but gives the longer bulb life (even
with frequent starts) :
http://tinyurl.com/24yh9do

Something to consider if I ever do start replacing my existing fixtures and/or
ballasts.

-- Randall

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 19 12:03:08 2010
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:03:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
In-Reply-To: <20100819112138.QGNWE.383090.root@mp16>
References: <SNT123-W1C075FA086360BBB19527E19E0@phx.gbl>,
	<20100819112138.QGNWE.383090.root@mp16>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W239FCC63F77B9CBF093348E19E0@phx.gbl>

Don't tell "it" that Mark is out of town or it might just quit.
Then what would we do for our fix autox.team.net!!

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!




> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:21:38 -0700
> From: tputland at charter.net
> To: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] testtest
>
> Yes, but very very slow I guess. I requested a pass word reminder about an
hour ago and just got it a few minutes ago.
> --
> thanks
>
> ---- Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> =============
>
> seems to be working
>
>
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF587L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:21:50 -0700
> > From: tputland at charter.net
> > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
> >
> > is this thing on? Bueller? Bueller?
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:47:50 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:47:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
In-Reply-To: <0ca701cb3fb4$2e742d60$8b5c8820$@rr.com>
References: <20100819102151.BRF3M.379692.root@mp16>
	<0ca701cb3fb4$2e742d60$8b5c8820$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimaxN6STREH_QXOuLoj2AH3TAkhSnc0m58Y7XPB@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> is this thing on? Bueller? Bueller?
>
> Dave's not here!
>

Really?

David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 19 18:07:01 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:07:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimaxN6STREH_QXOuLoj2AH3TAkhSnc0m58Y7XPB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100819102151.BRF3M.379692.root@mp16>
	<0ca701cb3fb4$2e742d60$8b5c8820$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTimaxN6STREH_QXOuLoj2AH3TAkhSnc0m58Y7XPB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0e0201cb3ffb$9de17210$d9a45630$@rr.com>

> > Dave's not here!
> >
> 
> Really?

You're supposed to say "No, Man *I'm* Dave!"

http://www.lyricspond.com/artist-cheech-chong/lyrics-dave

Well, maybe you had to be there ...

-- Randall 

From shop at justbrits.com  Thu Aug 19 18:51:43 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:51:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
In-Reply-To: <0e0201cb3ffb$9de17210$d9a45630$@rr.com>
References: <20100819102151.BRF3M.379692.root@mp16>
	<0ca701cb3fb4$2e742d60$8b5c8820$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTimaxN6STREH_QXOuLoj2AH3TAkhSnc0m58Y7XPB@mail.gmail.com>
	<0e0201cb3ffb$9de17210$d9a45630$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4C6DD19F.8040702@justbrits.com>

<< Well, maybe you had to be there ... >>

Randall, I was [/am <G>] and since yer 'professing' to have
been, at LEAST you SHOULD "get it right !!!!

<< Dave's not here! >>

It's:      "Dave ain't here, man."

Geesh !!

<VBEG> !!

Ed

PS:  And the BEST way to listen to their records is/was
with headphones [Koss Pro 4As being the best <G>] !!!

From shop at justbrits.com  Thu Aug 19 18:53:29 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:53:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <0ce601cb3fc3$4b1f0d90$e15d28b0$@rr.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
	<0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>
	<0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTikxJuLAK8BS17uSKYgQLV76cUdrccA4iSFMW8Hb@mail.gmail.com>
	<0ce601cb3fc3$4b1f0d90$e15d28b0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4C6DD209.9030702@justbrits.com>

Can you guys BEST this subject to DEATH just a little more ??

YIKES !!!  <G>

From mark at bradakis.com  Thu Aug 19 19:16:02 2010
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:16:02 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W239FCC63F77B9CBF093348E19E0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W1C075FA086360BBB19527E19E0@phx.gbl>,
	<20100819112138.QGNWE.383090.root@mp16>
	<SNT123-W239FCC63F77B9CBF093348E19E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C6DD752.8090603@bradakis.com>

Rich White wrote:
> Don't tell "it" that Mark is out of town
>    
Well, not exactly:

http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=105


mjb.

PS:  Yes, I know the server is in slow mode once again.  Maybe if the
insurance company does well on the CRV I'll get some new hardware.

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Aug 19 20:51:04 2010
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 02:51:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] EarthWise electric string trimmer.
In-Reply-To: <1335476733.107784.1282272467907.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2117326664.107856.1282272664274.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

EarthWise electric string trimmer.  Run away.

Bought one of these and that was a mistake.  Lousy balance.  Ran through all of the string in half of my yard.  The bang button was worn out making it impossible to wind on new string and continue.

Threw it in the trash and bought a HomeLite electric and it's working fine.  No bump button.  It advances a little every time you shut off for two seconds.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack"
2004 Suburban 8.1
2005 Lotus Elise
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
http://www.mnautox.com


----- Original Message -----

> From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:29:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
> 
> > If you turn them on
> > and off a dozen times a day, you'll kill tubes pretty quickly,
> 
> I guess "pretty quickly" is a relative term ... I've got instant start
> T12
> bulbs & (mostly) mag ballasts in my garage, and probably half the
> bulbs have
> never been changed since we moved in some 20 years ago.  
> 
> One of the kitchen lights is as Darrell described : electronic
> "instant
> start" ballasts driving T8 bulbs.  It gets turned on & off many times
> per
> day, but was only installed about 4 years ago, so no idea how long the
> bulbs
> will last.
> 
> I agree that doing "instant start" on a bulb not designed for it will
> quickly kill the bulb (I once built a fluorescent strobe light that
> would
> kill bulbs in a few days); but the garage T12 bulbs are designed for
> it
> (only one pin per end), and it's my understanding that the T8 bulbs
> are as
> well (even though they have two pins per end).
> 
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net

From tputland at charter.net  Thu Aug 19 21:03:38 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:03:38 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] testtest
In-Reply-To: <0e0201cb3ffb$9de17210$d9a45630$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <20100819230338.9WUKP.10192470.root@mp19>

'You're supposed to say "No, Man *I'm* Dave!" '

DOH!
Tim


---- Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote: 

=============
> > Dave's not here!
> >
> 
> Really?

You're supposed to say "No, Man *I'm* Dave!"

http://www.lyricspond.com/artist-cheech-chong/lyrics-dave

Well, maybe you had to be there ...

-- Randall 
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 21:24:02 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 23:24:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
In-Reply-To: <4C6DD209.9030702@justbrits.com>
References: <C536AEAA-908E-4FA6-B19D-4187D34AD4B3@ipns.com>
	<AANLkTimwkckDUEfHktBKMnshyw53AN_NvVqS-u7=hmD0@mail.gmail.com>
	<0be901cb3f2d$4093d720$c1bb8560$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=XZhQ_9izQZwCYEhdZ+fYm3cCSjdxiReBOE=Cn@mail.gmail.com>
	<0c2301cb3f40$fa8fdc60$efaf9520$@rr.com>
	<AANLkTikxJuLAK8BS17uSKYgQLV76cUdrccA4iSFMW8Hb@mail.gmail.com>
	<0ce601cb3fc3$4b1f0d90$e15d28b0$@rr.com>
	<4C6DD209.9030702@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinX08cerGjUzYwPcHyWeeKrrFQpQwOQi4Pp2u-y@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Shop at " Just Brits "
<shop at justbrits.com> wrote:
> Can you guys BEST this subject to DEATH just a little more ??
>
> YIKES !!! B <G>

We haven't talked about resonant starting ballasts yet!  They're way cool.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Aug 20 10:50:21 2010
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:50:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] EarthWise electric string trimmer.
In-Reply-To: <2117326664.107856.1282272664274.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2117326664.107856.1282272664274.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4C6EB24D.3000807@verizon.net>

When my wife's 30 year old (it was her father's)  yellow single line 
Weed Eater finally died earlier this year I got her a Sthil electric. 
Works great, she loves it.

pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> EarthWise electric string trimmer.  Run away.
>
> Bought one of these and that was a mistake.  Lousy balance.  Ran through all of the string in half of my yard.  The bang button was worn out making it impossible to wind on new string and continue.
>
> Threw it in the trash and bought a HomeLite electric and it's working fine.  No bump button.  It advances a little every time you shut off for two seconds.
>
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack"
> 2004 Suburban 8.1
> 2005 Lotus Elise
> 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
> pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
> http://www.triumphtransamerica.org
> http://www.mnautox.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> From: "Randall"<tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
>> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:29:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop light problems - update
>>
>>> If you turn them on
>>> and off a dozen times a day, you'll kill tubes pretty quickly,
>> I guess "pretty quickly" is a relative term ... I've got instant start
>> T12
>> bulbs&  (mostly) mag ballasts in my garage, and probably half the
>> bulbs have
>> never been changed since we moved in some 20 years ago.
>>
>> One of the kitchen lights is as Darrell described : electronic
>> "instant
>> start" ballasts driving T8 bulbs.  It gets turned on&  off many times
>> per
>> day, but was only installed about 4 years ago, so no idea how long the
>> bulbs
>> will last.
>>
>> I agree that doing "instant start" on a bulb not designed for it will
>> quickly kill the bulb (I once built a fluorescent strobe light that
>> would
>> kill bulbs in a few days); but the garage T12 bulbs are designed for
>> it
>> (only one pin per end), and it's my understanding that the T8 bulbs
>> are as
>> well (even though they have two pins per end).
>>
>> -- Randall
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at verizon.net

From shop at justbrits.com  Fri Aug 20 12:26:55 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:26:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] EarthWise electric string trimmer.
In-Reply-To: <4C6EB24D.3000807@verizon.net>
References: <2117326664.107856.1282272664274.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<4C6EB24D.3000807@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C6EC8EF.903@justbrits.com>

Geesh David, you just rattled a wee bit on memory there <G> !!

<< ...finally died earlier this year I got her a Sthil electric. Works 
great,
she loves it >>

5 or 6 years ago, same thing but I don't recall the org. brand
<G>, but I had to come up wid a new one and Sthil IS what I
bought her;      and for Mother's Day <G> !!!

And she still loves her's !!!   LOL !!

And I actually "skated" as I HAD forgotten the Hallmark
Holiday so all I had to do was wrap it and hand over <VBG> !!

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com

From tputland at charter.net  Sat Aug 21 11:20:29 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:20:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] How do you clean a Chamois?"
Message-ID: <20100821132029.ZEFY8.10274091.root@mp07>

I finally found mine earlier this summer after it being lost for many years (don't ask how something gets lost for that long!). It is very dirty and also has a couple areas that are kinda greasy. 

Can I put this thing in the washer? Or is there a good way to clean these things?

Thanks

Tim
Dairyland Datsuns

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Sat Aug 21 12:41:22 2010
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:41:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Unfamiliar wiring for basement lights
Message-ID: <MTAwMDAzNS5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1282416089@quikprotect>

Hi All,



Our basement is lit with six 2x34W Fluorescent fixtures and one 60W
incandescent fixture, all switched by a two-way switch at the top of the
stairs (no other switching).  One of the fluorescent fixtures failed (the
ballast failed) and the fixture is broken, so Im replacing it. From the
outside it looked like the lights were just daisy-chained, but after pulling
the fixture I see that one wire going into the fixture is 3-way (has a red
wire) and the other is a normal line (B,W,Gr).  The black is on the switch,
but the red wire appears to be a hot home run  the only way I can kill its
power is to throw the breaker.  Anyone know if there is a reason or protocol
for wiring like this?  Im inclined to just cap the red wire and daisy-chain
the black and white wires, but I dont want to make a naove mistake (Im not
an electrician and my EE classes from 20 years ago are no help).  The red
wire was connected to one of the black wires in the fixture, BTW; the two
black wires coming into the fixture were coupled (wire nut).  Any thoughts?



On a safety note, the old adage:  assume all wires are hot and test,
certainly held true in this case.



Thanks, Ian

p.s. Im a lurker who tries to answer at least two questions for every one
that I askbut I dont tend to ask many questions.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sat Aug 21 14:19:02 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:19:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Unfamiliar wiring for basement lights
In-Reply-To: <MTAwMDAzNS5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1282416089@quikprotect>
References: <MTAwMDAzNS5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1282416089@quikprotect>
Message-ID: <4C7034B6.3010208@hornesystemstx.com>

  Ian,  As a test try disconnecting the red at the first fixture and 
capping it. If the lights and switch still work as they did, then you 
can leave it off. I believe that you will find that they don't work. If 
they don't work, look in the switch box at the top of the stairs. I 
would expect to see a red wire there that is connected to the switch, as 
well as a black to another screw. There may or may not be another screw 
that the white wire is connected to.  What this means is that the power 
from the breaker panel goes to the fixture, then a cable is run from 
there to the switch. If there is only one red wire in all the fixtures, 
it may be that the electrician didn't want to use the white wire as a 
switched hot lead - something that has become illegal within the last 
year or so, or he planned for a future light switch to be added at the 
bottom of the stairs sometime in the future.

If you need a better explanation please let me know.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org, On 8/21/2010 1:41 PM:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Our basement is lit with six 2x34W Fluorescent fixtures and one 60W
> incandescent fixture, all switched by a two-way switch at the top of the
> stairs (no other switching).  One of the fluorescent fixtures failed (the
> ballast failed) and the fixture is broken, so Im replacing it. From the
> outside it looked like the lights were just daisy-chained, but after pulling
> the fixture I see that one wire going into the fixture is 3-way (has a red
> wire) and the other is a normal line (B,W,Gr).  The black is on the switch,
> but the red wire appears to be a hot home run  the only way I can kill its
> power is to throw the breaker.  Anyone know if there is a reason or protocol
> for wiring like this?  Im inclined to just cap the red wire and daisy-chain
> the black and white wires, but I dont want to make a naove mistake (Im not
> an electrician and my EE classes from 20 years ago are no help).  The red
> wire was connected to one of the black wires in the fixture, BTW; the two
> black wires coming into the fixture were coupled (wire nut).  Any thoughts?
>
>
>
> On a safety note, the old adage:  assume all wires are hot and test,
> certainly held true in this case.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Ian
>
> p.s. Im a lurker who tries to answer at least two questions for every one
> that I askbut I dont tend to ask many questions.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sat Aug 21 14:33:21 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:33:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How do you clean a Chamois?"
In-Reply-To: <20100821132029.ZEFY8.10274091.root@mp07>
References: <20100821132029.ZEFY8.10274091.root@mp07>
Message-ID: <4C703811.5050805@hornesystemstx.com>

     Here is the recommendation from "the Original Chamois Company":
     * Use chamois leather to dry off surfaces after washing;
       /Our chamois leather has super absorbency - 500% by weight.
       Softness that only genuine chamois leather gives.
       With the ability to lift and hold grime particles within the
       hollow fiber of the leather, you can effectively eliminate
       abrasion and save you time./
     * After washing your car as recommended by the manufacturer.
       Use natural chamois leather cloth to dry your car.
     * Before use rinse chamois cloth in clean water, and wring out.
       The chamois needs to be damp, yet not wet to for best results.
     * Remove the majority of water from your car before you dry it by
       sweeping the chamois over the car, wring out excess water as you
       proceed.
     * Chamois leather gets stiff when it is too dry, it will regain its
       softness with moisture or on wetting.
     * Genuine natural chamois leather cloth makes an excellent window
       chamois with a soft lint free surface.
     * When cleaning chamois leather rinse it in lukewarm water with a
       mild non-alkali soap, or mild detergent. Squeeze or use chamois
       wringer to remove excess water. Gently stretch chamois flannel,
       and hang in area protected from direct sunlight and intense heat.
       Take care not to over dry.
     * Chamois is excellent for grooming your pets especially dogs and
       horses.


Peace,
Pat



Thusly spake Tim, On 8/21/2010 12:20 PM:
> I finally found mine earlier this summer after it being lost for many years (don't ask how something gets lost for that long!). It is very dirty and also has a couple areas that are kinda greasy.
>
> Can I put this thing in the washer? Or is there a good way to clean these things?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim
> Dairyland Datsuns
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Aug 21 15:23:54 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:23:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Unfamiliar wiring for basement lights
In-Reply-To: <MTAwMDAzNS5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1282416089@quikprotect>
References: <MTAwMDAzNS5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1282416089@quikprotect>
Message-ID: <08be01cb4177$28bb2c60$0301a8c0@randall>

>  The red
> wire was connected to one of the black wires in the fixture, 
> BTW; the two
> black wires coming into the fixture were coupled (wire nut).   

I'm not sure I follow all this, but it sounds as though someone has
installed the switch on the neutral side of the supply to the lights.
Definitely not standard practice, but I've seen stranger things.  If so,
then the lights aren't going to work without that red wire, unless you
rewire the switch as well.

My suggestion would be to hook the new fixture up the same way as the old
one; leaving the breaker off until the job is finished, whether it's
required or not.

Randall

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Sat Aug 21 17:07:05 2010
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (frede.thomas2)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:07:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How do you clean a Chamois?"
Message-ID: <601141219.1088460.1282432025262.JavaMail.root@vznit170076>


From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Sun Aug 22 09:43:33 2010
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:43:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Unfamiliar wiring for basement lights
In-Reply-To: <4C7034B6.3010208@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <MTAwMDAzNS5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1282416089@quikprotect>
	<4C7034B6.3010208@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <MTAwMDAwNC5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1282491821@quikprotect>

Hi All,

Looks like my reply got block...forgot to trim the old text and the message
body was apparently too big: 4346 bytes with a limit of 4 KB.  Forgot all
about that limit.

===========================================

Pat, as you suggest, I'll pull the switch cover tomorrow and see if the red
wire is connected to the switch.  The basement lights are working now, minus
the broken fixture.  I have the red wire at the broken fixture capped and
the two cables coupled (black to black, white to white, ground to ground,
and the one red wire capped).  

Greg, there are two black wires coming into the fixture as follows:  one
cable with a black, white, red, and ground wire; the other with just a
black, white, and ground wire.  I'll double-check and make sure there's not
240v between the red and black wire(s).  

Randall, I'm inclined to do as you say and just wire the new fixture the
same way the old fixture was wired.  As you suspected, the new fixture does
not work with just the black and white wires, the red seems to be required.
Although all the other fixtures are working with the red capped at the
broken light fixture. 

Thanks for the help guys.  I thought the wiring seemed odd; it's certainly
different than the basement lights in my last house (built in 2003).  This
house was built in 2001, but I believe the previous owner wired the basement
himself (at least the light fixtures).  

- Ian

From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 17:48:31 2010
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:48:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1/2 in drill chuck
Message-ID: <AANLkTinVsAEdsv+H5r869Ge74qCKmcTfSjoXyuqctrc2@mail.gmail.com>

We've had a Craftsman 1/2 in drill (315.10280) just about forever and
it's been a real workhorse. Unfortunately something inside the chuck
seems to have gone walkabout and I can no longer run the chuck
anywhere near all the way in to use smaller bits, etc. I looked on the
Sears site and they don't even list the chuck as a separate part. Does
anyone know if these older Craftman drill use a standard Jacobs chuck?
I'd really like to replace it with a newer keyless piece if I can.

-- 
Ron

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug 22 19:02:49 2010
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:02:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1/2 in drill chuck
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinVsAEdsv+H5r869Ge74qCKmcTfSjoXyuqctrc2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinVsAEdsv+H5r869Ge74qCKmcTfSjoXyuqctrc2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0ab601cb425e$e88a5510$0301a8c0@randall>

> Does
> anyone know if these older Craftman drill use a standard Jacobs chuck?

Why not pull the chuck off and see?  My 3/8 Craftsman had the standard
threaded spindle, but that doesn't mean they all do.

If it's a reversible drill, there will likely be a left hand thread SHCS
that is accessible through the jaw opening.  Once that's removed, just stick
a chuck key or similar rod into one of the chuck holes, and give it a sharp
rap to unscrew the chuck.

Randall

From shop at justbrits.com  Sun Aug 22 20:35:12 2010
From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ")
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:35:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1/2 in drill chuck
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinVsAEdsv+H5r869Ge74qCKmcTfSjoXyuqctrc2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinVsAEdsv+H5r869Ge74qCKmcTfSjoXyuqctrc2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C71DE60.7050007@justbrits.com>

er Ron, .............

<< I looked on the Sears site and they don't even list the chuck as a
separate part. >>

Did you write them or submit a Tech Request asking if
they still have/offer the chuck for your Model of drill ??

Are you in Oz ??  If you run into problems with Sears
and need some US assistance just drop me a note.
Be more than happy to help and know how to cheaply
ship to Oz <VBG> !!!

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Aug 23 06:50:04 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 5:50:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] How do you clean a Chamois?"
In-Reply-To: <20100821132029.ZEFY8.10274091.root@mp07>
Message-ID: <20100823085004.R1JUB.10196523.root@mp18>

Thanks everybody. 

Quilt soap it is as we have a few antique quilts that could use a good cleaning as well. 

Tim


---- Tim <tputland at charter.net> wrote: 

=============
I finally found mine earlier this summer after it being lost for many years (don't ask how something gets lost for that long!). It is very dirty and also has a couple areas that are kinda greasy. 

Can I put this thing in the washer? Or is there a good way to clean these things?

Thanks

Tim
Dairyland Datsuns
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Aug 29 14:12:15 2010
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:12:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] utility trailer recommendations
Message-ID: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>

some 'nice' individual decided they needed by 6x12 utility trailer and  stole
it... It was a custom built h.d. trailer and I haven't seen another like it...
the material list to rebuild is over 1K and the insurance issued me a nice
check for 800... it depreciated...b.s.

anyway I'm in the market for a replacement and wonder if you guys have any
recommendations.

I'm open to single or double axle...a min of 6x12... ramp or drop gate but I
want something substancial... not the typical H.D. or side of the road utility
trailer build out of 2x2x1/8" angle...

I looked closely at Performance Trailers at a dealer this weekend but saw some
bad reports on the net after looking... so I'm open...

any suggestions ???

thanks
John






I've learned in life that my primary goal
 is to serve as a bad example

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Aug 29 17:56:38 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:56:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] utility trailer recommendations
In-Reply-To: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>
References: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>
Message-ID: <6E169C8D7D274228A96E7197E77F8BA2@EricJRussellPC>

I have no personal experience but 'Superior Trailer' is local to me. I've 
been by to check out their car trailers. The inventory I've seen looks good. 
IIRC, most of what they sell is "Texas Bragg" & "Pace".
http://www.superior-trailer.com/Home/

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 4:12 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] utility trailer recommendations


> some 'nice' individual decided they needed by 6x12 utility trailer and 
> stole
> it...

> I'm open to single or double axle...a min of 6x12... ramp or drop gate but 
> I
> want something substancial... not the typical H.D. or side of the road 
> utility
> trailer build out of 2x2x1/8" angle...

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 10:23:57 2010
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:23:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
References: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>
	<6E169C8D7D274228A96E7197E77F8BA2@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>

Ok, here is the story ...

I was out of town and my nephew called. He was driving his girlfriend's 2000 
Kia Sephia Spectra. When he stepped on the brake pedal it went to the floor. 
On the second pump the brakes worked well enough that he was able to stop 
the car. He then drove carefully to a safe parking lot using the "two pump" 
method and then called me. I asked him to look at the wheels to see if there 
was any sigh of fluid loss and to check the master cylinder reservoir. 
Everything looked to be in good shape. I then suggested that he either call 
AAA or if he felt comfortable he could take back roads and drive the car 
over to my house. He took the latter option.

He called me when he got to my house and said "on the way over it was fine, 
the brakes worked on the first try". Given that it was now in my driveway 
and thinking that the large hammer principal might discover what might be 
amiss I asked him to go out and step on the brake pedal as hard as he could. 
The assumption being that if he blows a seal or a rubber line at least it 
was in the driveway and easy to fix. He went out to the car and said the 
pedal again went easily to the floor but would pump up like it had earlier.

I told him where the keys were for my car so he and his girlfriend could at 
least be on their way and told them I would look at the Kia when I got home.

Upon getting home I took the car for a drive and the brakes seemed fine. 
Reasonable pedal feel, reasonable stopping power ... after all it is a 10 
year old Kia Sephia so the bar was not real high to begin with ... all 
seemed to be fine.

I am reluctant to give it back to them with a clean bill of health. The only 
thing I can think of is to replace the master cylinder, but that seems like 
throwing parts at the problem. But the master cylinder is the only thing I 
can think of that might cause a soft pedal without leaking fluid on the 
ground and "recovering". The thought of a small piece of rust or what ever 
causing an intermittent seal failure between the front and back portions of 
the master cylinder is the scenario I was thinking of.

So if anyone has any other suggestions on how to diagnosis this I would 
appreciate it. And even if you don't have a firm diagnosis, a well reasoned 
"throw this at it" would be appreciated ... assuming it is short of 
replacing the car or the entire brake system.

Thanks,
Arvid 

From bjshov8 at tx.rr.com  Mon Aug 30 11:06:43 2010
From: bjshov8 at tx.rr.com (bjshov8 at tx.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:06:43 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
In-Reply-To: <25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <20100830170643.YRXCM.242050.root@cdptpa-web25-z01>

Friends don't let friends drive Kia's.  I can't imagine the kind of person that would admit to driving one, even if it belonged to someone else and it wasn't an emergency.

Did you check the fluid level in the m.c. yourself?

 
> I was out of town and my nephew called. He was driving his girlfriend's 2000 
> Kia Sephia Spectra. When he stepped on the brake pedal it went to the floor. 
> On the second pump the brakes worked well enough that he was able to stop 
> the car. He then drove carefully to a safe parking lot using the "two pump" 
> method and then called me. I asked him to look at the wheels to see if there 
> was any sigh of fluid loss and to check the master cylinder reservoir. 
> Everything looked to be in good shape. I then suggested that he either call 
> AAA or if he felt comfortable he could take back roads and drive the car 
> over to my house. He took the latter option.
> 
> He called me when he got to my house and said "on the way over it was fine, 
> the brakes worked on the first try". Given that it was now in my driveway 
> and thinking that the large hammer principal might discover what might be 
> amiss I asked him to go out and step on the brake pedal as hard as he could. 
> The assumption being that if he blows a seal or a rubber line at least it 
> was in the driveway and easy to fix. He went out to the car and said the 
> pedal again went easily to the floor but would pump up like it had earlier.
> 
> I told him where the keys were for my car so he and his girlfriend could at 
> least be on their way and told them I would look at the Kia when I got home.
> 
> Upon getting home I took the car for a drive and the brakes seemed fine. 
> Reasonable pedal feel, reasonable stopping power ... after all it is a 10 
> year old Kia Sephia so the bar was not real high to begin with ... all 
> seemed to be fine.
> 
> I am reluctant to give it back to them with a clean bill of health. The only 
> thing I can think of is to replace the master cylinder, but that seems like 
> throwing parts at the problem. But the master cylinder is the only thing I 
> can think of that might cause a soft pedal without leaking fluid on the 
> ground and "recovering". The thought of a small piece of rust or what ever 
> causing an intermittent seal failure between the front and back portions of 
> the master cylinder is the scenario I was thinking of.
> 
> So if anyone has any other suggestions on how to diagnosis this I would 
> appreciate it. And even if you don't have a firm diagnosis, a well reasoned 
> "throw this at it" would be appreciated ... assuming it is short of 
> replacing the car or the entire brake system.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Aug 30 11:23:07 2010
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:23:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
In-Reply-To: <25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
References: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>
	<6E169C8D7D274228A96E7197E77F8BA2@EricJRussellPC>
	<25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <4C7BE8FB.3030507@hornesystemstx.com>

  Arvid,

I don't know where you are located, but if the weather is hot and the 
brakes are hot, the moisture in the calipers/wheel cylinders may be 
heating up enough to make steam. After cooling off the steam condenses 
and the breaks work correctly again. Try taking the car for a trip where 
you will be using the brakes enough to really heat them up. If that 
causes them to require 2 strokes to stop the car I'd recommend changing 
the brake fluid. Most cars don't get it changed often enough, just 
topped off as necessary, leaving a fair amount of water in the system.

Please let us know what you find.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Arvid Jedlicka, On 8/30/2010 11:23 AM:
> Ok, here is the story ...
>
> I was out of town and my nephew called. He was driving his 
> girlfriend's 2000 Kia Sephia Spectra. When he stepped on the brake 
> pedal it went to the floor. On the second pump the brakes worked well 
> enough that he was able to stop the car. He then drove carefully to a 
> safe parking lot using the "two pump" method and then called me. I 
> asked him to look at the wheels to see if there was any sigh of fluid 
> loss and to check the master cylinder reservoir. Everything looked to 
> be in good shape. I then suggested that he either call AAA or if he 
> felt comfortable he could take back roads and drive the car over to my 
> house. He took the latter option.
>
> He called me when he got to my house and said "on the way over it was 
> fine, the brakes worked on the first try". Given that it was now in my 
> driveway and thinking that the large hammer principal might discover 
> what might be amiss I asked him to go out and step on the brake pedal 
> as hard as he could. The assumption being that if he blows a seal or a 
> rubber line at least it was in the driveway and easy to fix. He went 
> out to the car and said the pedal again went easily to the floor but 
> would pump up like it had earlier.
>
> I told him where the keys were for my car so he and his girlfriend 
> could at least be on their way and told them I would look at the Kia 
> when I got home.
>
> Upon getting home I took the car for a drive and the brakes seemed 
> fine. Reasonable pedal feel, reasonable stopping power ... after all 
> it is a 10 year old Kia Sephia so the bar was not real high to begin 
> with ... all seemed to be fine.
>
> I am reluctant to give it back to them with a clean bill of health. 
> The only thing I can think of is to replace the master cylinder, but 
> that seems like throwing parts at the problem. But the master cylinder 
> is the only thing I can think of that might cause a soft pedal without 
> leaking fluid on the ground and "recovering". The thought of a small 
> piece of rust or what ever causing an intermittent seal failure 
> between the front and back portions of the master cylinder is the 
> scenario I was thinking of.
>
> So if anyone has any other suggestions on how to diagnosis this I 
> would appreciate it. And even if you don't have a firm diagnosis, a 
> well reasoned "throw this at it" would be appreciated ... assuming it 
> is short of replacing the car or the entire brake system.
>
> Thanks,
> Arvid _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Aug 30 11:57:00 2010
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:57:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
In-Reply-To: <25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
References: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>
	<6E169C8D7D274228A96E7197E77F8BA2@EricJRussellPC>
	<25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <4C7BF0EC.8040105@comcast.net>

Pull the M/C and have a look; could be a shot seal (probably the fluid 
recovery seal).


bs


Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> Ok, here is the story ...
>
> I was out of town and my nephew called. He was driving his 
> girlfriend's 2000 Kia Sephia Spectra. When he stepped on the brake 
> pedal it went to the floor. On the second pump the brakes worked well 
> enough that he was able to stop the car. He then drove carefully to a 
> safe parking lot using the "two pump" method and then called me. I 
> asked him to look at the wheels to see if there was any sigh of fluid 
> loss and to check the master cylinder reservoir. Everything looked to 
> be in good shape. I then suggested that he either call AAA or if he 
> felt comfortable he could take back roads and drive the car over to my 
> house. He took the latter option.
>
> He called me when he got to my house and said "on the way over it was 
> fine, the brakes worked on the first try". Given that it was now in my 
> driveway and thinking that the large hammer principal might discover 
> what might be amiss I asked him to go out and step on the brake pedal 
> as hard as he could. The assumption being that if he blows a seal or a 
> rubber line at least it was in the driveway and easy to fix. He went 
> out to the car and said the pedal again went easily to the floor but 
> would pump up like it had earlier.
>
> I told him where the keys were for my car so he and his girlfriend 
> could at least be on their way and told them I would look at the Kia 
> when I got home.
>
> Upon getting home I took the car for a drive and the brakes seemed 
> fine. Reasonable pedal feel, reasonable stopping power ... after all 
> it is a 10 year old Kia Sephia so the bar was not real high to begin 
> with ... all seemed to be fine.
>
> I am reluctant to give it back to them with a clean bill of health. 
> The only thing I can think of is to replace the master cylinder, but 
> that seems like throwing parts at the problem. But the master cylinder 
> is the only thing I can think of that might cause a soft pedal without 
> leaking fluid on the ground and "recovering". The thought of a small 
> piece of rust or what ever causing an intermittent seal failure 
> between the front and back portions of the master cylinder is the 
> scenario I was thinking of.
>
> So if anyone has any other suggestions on how to diagnosis this I 
> would appreciate it. And even if you don't have a firm diagnosis, a 
> well reasoned "throw this at it" would be appreciated ... assuming it 
> is short of replacing the car or the entire brake system.
>
> Thanks,
> Arvid _______________________________________________
>
>
>


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 11:57:41 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:57:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
In-Reply-To: <20100830170643.YRXCM.242050.root@cdptpa-web25-z01>
References: <25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
	<20100830170643.YRXCM.242050.root@cdptpa-web25-z01>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZCLhowwPbEwB+3v=ZQVFzqB3FEYdS4ybrbgoy@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:06 PM,  <bjshov8 at tx.rr.com> wrote:
> Friends don't let friends drive Kia's. B I can't imagine the kind of person
that would admit to driving one, even if it belonged to someone else and it
wasn't an emergency.

What, you only know snobs?

>
> Did you check the fluid level in the m.c. yourself?
>
--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 12:03:43 2010
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:03:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
References: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406><6E169C8D7D274228A96E7197E77F8BA2@EricJRussellPC>
	<25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
	<4C7BE8FB.3030507@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <0EA1F03971B74CBDBEA055EC418DF437@behavioral.com>

I love this list!!

Eric Russel suggested ...

A easy test to perform is to slowly & gently press on the brake pedal. If it
sinks then the seals are likely failing. A quick, firm press on the pedal
applies pressure quickly and the seals are designed to press tighter against
the bore with internal pressure. The slow, gentle application will usually
reveal any weakness of the sealing ability.

... and this test allowed the pedal to go all the way to the floor. So I now 
feel much better about getting the master cylinder.

Bob Spidell also thinks the master cylinder is suspect.

Pat Horne suggested there could be water in the brake fluid if the fluid has 
never been changed and we might be experiencing brake fade. 
bjshov8 at tx.rr.com suggested that I not let friends drive Kia's and then 
suggested I check the master cylinder fluid level myself.

Both are very good suggestions as the girlfriends maintenance mantra appears 
to be "if is starts, runs and stops then no maintenance is required, if not, 
then maintenance may be required". The concept of "periodic or preventive 
maintenance" is no where to be found in her chant.

I did check the master cylinder and indeed, there is a liquid in the 
reservoir that is up to the max line. Based on the color of the liquid it is 
probably original Kia fluid installed when manufactured.

So the current plan is to replace the master cylinder and flush the entire 
brake system. I'm off to garage to line up the PB Blaster, the Kroil, the 
butane torch and the gas axe assuming that the bleeders will require all of 
these techniques to loosen them up after 10 years of inactivity.

Thanks again to all,
Arvid 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 12:05:30 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:05:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
In-Reply-To: <25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
References: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>
	<6E169C8D7D274228A96E7197E77F8BA2@EricJRussellPC>
	<25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Uhcy=VS98C-ttR+BFZ7ot9ch1kckTF9vzqp-T@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com> wrote:
>
> I am reluctant to give it back to them with a clean bill of health. The only
> thing I can think of is to replace the master cylinder, but that seems like
> throwing parts at the problem. But the master cylinder is the only thing I
> can think of that might cause a soft pedal without leaking fluid on the
> ground and "recovering". The thought of a small piece of rust or what ever
> causing an intermittent seal failure between the front and back portions of
> the master cylinder is the scenario I was thinking of.
>

Is this a car with ABS, or without?  I'm guessing without, given that
it's a '00 Kia, but ABS system failures can do this, too.  But bypass
failure of the master cylinder is a quite likely cause.  It's what I'd
replace, as well as the fluid.  It's probably 10 years old, and
causing substantial corrosion.

A master cylinder for tis car will be cheap, and its not hard to swap.
 Teach the nephew to do it, which is likely to impress the
girlfriend...

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Aug 30 13:47:51 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:47:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] must have tool?
Message-ID: <F03868DD377D4080B64CC6E94F05F25A@EricJRussellPC>

No tool box is complete without one:
http://bloomington.craigslist.org/tls/1919515394.html

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From tputland at charter.net  Mon Aug 30 14:35:43 2010
From: tputland at charter.net (Tim)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:35:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] must have tool?
Message-ID: <20100830163543.31WEQ.10488932.root@mp18>

For the gay contractor who must have everything!


Tim


---- Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net> wrote: 

=============
No tool box is complete without one:
http://bloomington.craigslist.org/tls/1919515394.html

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Aug 30 15:07:06 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:07:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
Message-ID: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>

I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,
and a few models that look decent but could be decent-looking crap. Anyone
bought Craftsman recently that can comment on good models?

I'm not opposed to buying used, but that's a lot more effort and will
require cleaning, and cleaning toolboxes sucks :-)

thanks,
jim

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Aug 30 16:04:58 2010
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:04:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbe
	nch.org>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>

At 05:07 PM 8/30/2010, Jim Franklin wrote:

 >I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
 >and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,
 >and a few models that look decent but could be decent-looking crap. Anyone
 >bought Craftsman recently that can comment on good models?

Jim,

Have you looked at Harbor Freight?  I purchased there big roll around cabinet,

http://www.harborfreight.com/13-drawer-red-industrial-quality-roller-cabinet-90320.html

It's a lot better than the other smaller off brand cabinet is, and 
seems stronger
than many of the tool boxes I've seen at Sears.

Also, the Kobalt boxes at Lowes don't look to bad.

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 30 16:24:49 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:24:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com>

On 8/30/2010 5:07 PM, Jim Franklin wrote:
> I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
> and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,
> and a few models that look decent but could be decent-looking crap. Anyone
> bought Craftsman recently that can comment on good models?

Their homeowner grade boxes are pretty crappy.  Into the higher line ones, they only differences  seem to be the drawer slides;  ball bearing vs sliders.  The sliders are adequate for most folks.  I would try to get a full-depth top chest;  a lot more versatile space than the ones that are only like 10" deep.  I also don't care for the narrow two- or three-across drawers;  If I want narrow drawers, I'll installer spacers in the sizes I want.

What color does she like ;)  Here's a lovely pink one!

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00987614000P?prdNo=15&blockNo=15&blockType=G15

I have the old standard red & gray which I find fugly.

-Wayne

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Aug 30 18:10:58 2010
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:10:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <86bd88425a19c9510e0ba4c941b07075.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>

> At 05:07 PM 8/30/2010, Jim Franklin wrote:

> Jim,
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/13-drawer-red-industrial-quality-roller-cabinet-90320.html

I just happen to be vacationing in a town where there's a HF close by so I
took a look. They're not bad, better than the Craftsman as you say. A
contender, even though one of the drawer slides had already fallen apart.
And the warranty is a joke.

> Also, the Kobalt boxes at Lowes don't look to bad.

A friend has one and it's well below the HF I looked at. Thinner, poorly
designed handles, just cheap. Not a contender.

jim

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 30 18:12:46 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:12:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>

>> I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
>> and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,

Interesting bit of trivia -- There's a company Waterloo Industries 
www.waterlooindustries.com that I am told OEMs the Sears boxes, and 
probably the Kobalt too.  Thet sell boxes under their own name, but it's 
pretty rare to find them;  when I have they're like 2X the price of the 
same Sears one.

The H.F. one looks nice.  They probably just ripped off the Sears / 
Waterloo design.

-Wayne

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 18:15:48 2010
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 19:15:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikS9NBx_BNbmRUyz5k2Y+zCHjPQworFBi8fVN3q@mail.gmail.com>

I bought one in March, and overall I am happy with it.  I went with a
higher end homeowner grade unit because I wanted roller drawer slides
and just didn't have the budget for the "pro" models.  The one I
bought was actually made by Waterloo, but I could not find it cheaper
anywhere else (it was on sale at Sears, and most places were all
advertising the same retail price).  The drawers are sturdy, and slide
well when full of tools.  The casters are very sturdy and the box
rolls well.  Here is the link to the one I bought.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00982553000P?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&block
Type=G5


On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
> and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,
> and a few models that look decent but could be decent-looking crap. Anyone
> bought Craftsman recently that can comment on good models?
>
> I'm not opposed to buying used, but that's a lot more effort and will
> require cleaning, and cleaning toolboxes sucks :-)
>
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Mon Aug 30 18:50:19 2010
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vincent Marshall)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:50:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com> <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <815E105C-D454-48F7-9FC1-2634CA6CFDD8@te-motorworks.com>

And if you're looking to buy Waterloo specifically, Grainger and Enco both
carry the tool cabinets and carts.

-vin

On Aug 30, 2010, at 8:12 PM, Wayne wrote:

>>> I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
>>> and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,
>
> Interesting bit of trivia -- There's a company Waterloo Industries
www.waterlooindustries.com that I am told OEMs the Sears boxes, and probably
the Kobalt too.  Thet sell boxes under their own name, but it's pretty rare to
find them;  when I have they're like 2X the price of the same Sears one.
>
> The H.F. one looks nice.  They probably just ripped off the Sears / Waterloo
design.
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/vlm at te-motorworks.com

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Aug 30 19:20:30 2010
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:20:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikS9NBx_BNbmRUyz5k2Y+zCHjPQworFBi8fVN3q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<AANLkTikS9NBx_BNbmRUyz5k2Y+zCHjPQworFBi8fVN3q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F871A49C1E84BA7A68D0EC442B3B3F1@EricJRussellPC>

What about your friends here on the email list? I've got a birthday coming 
up soon...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010, Jim Franklin wrote:
> I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 20:33:36 2010
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:33:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com> <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinvBE7GYjoR-aLJs1uX8R_Tq-L_QMzL7GOd9_-J@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
>>> I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
>>> and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,
>
> Interesting bit of trivia -- There's a company Waterloo Industries
> www.waterlooindustries.com that I am told OEMs the Sears boxes, and
probably
> the Kobalt too. B Thet sell boxes under their own name, but it's pretty
rare
> to find them; B when I have they're like 2X the price of the same Sears
one.
>

The other American maker of toolboxes is Kennedy.   Sold through
industrial suppliers (Grainger, Mcmaster, etc. ).  Nice stuff.
Spendy, though.

>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 04:58:15 2010
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:58:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinvBE7GYjoR-aLJs1uX8R_Tq-L_QMzL7GOd9_-J@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com> <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>
	<AANLkTinvBE7GYjoR-aLJs1uX8R_Tq-L_QMzL7GOd9_-J@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com>

I grew up in Van Wert, OH (Where Kennedy boxes are made) and I can vouch for
them being really great toolboxes.  However, when it came time for me to buy
a big roller I couldn't justify the expense.  There used to be great deals
to be had in the scratch and dents at their factory story if you happen to
live in the area though.

-Paul

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
>>> I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a
roll-away
>>> and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of
crap,
>
> Interesting bit of trivia -- There's a company Waterloo Industries
> www.waterlooindustries.com that I am told OEMs the Sears boxes, and
probably
> the Kobalt too. B Thet sell boxes under their own name, but it's pretty
rare
> to find them; B when I have they're like 2X the price of the same Sears
one.
>

The other American maker of toolboxes is Kennedy.   Sold through
industrial suppliers (Grainger, Mcmaster, etc. ).  Nice stuff.
Spendy, though.

>
--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Aug 31 05:19:21 2010
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:19:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com>
Message-ID: <OF69BC3F73.1B75D34C-ON85257790.003F26F8-85257790.003F47E0@mail.megageek.com>

Paul writes...

>There used to be great deals
>to be had in the scratch and dents at their factory story if you happen 
to
>live in the area though.

Are the deals good enough to make a special trip there from NJ?  (I might 
take a ride if so.)



Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 05:45:32 2010
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:45:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <OF69BC3F73.1B75D34C-ON85257790.003F26F8-85257790.003F47E0@mail.megageek.com>
References: <000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com>
	<OF69BC3F73.1B75D34C-ON85257790.003F26F8-85257790.003F47E0@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <001501cb4902$057a6260$106f2720$@com>

I haven't been there in many years.  I hear they actually moved the outlet
since I was there last...  Ten years ago I remember seeing boxes that
retailed for ~$1200 going for $4-500 sometimes and it might be for a
fist-sized dent on the _back_ of the box.  Drawers would function fine, etc.
I'd hate to see you take a trip like that and come up empty.

-Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: eric at megageek.com [mailto:eric at megageek.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:19 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Cc: Paul Parkanzky
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?

Paul writes...

>There used to be great deals
>to be had in the scratch and dents at their factory story if you happen 
to
>live in the area though.

Are the deals good enough to make a special trip there from NJ?  (I might 
take a ride if so.)



Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Aug 31 06:15:10 2010
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:15:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com> <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>
	<AANLkTinvBE7GYjoR-aLJs1uX8R_Tq-L_QMzL7GOd9_-J@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C7CF24E.2030801@xxiii.com>

On 8/31/2010 6:58 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> I grew up in Van Wert, OH (Where Kennedy boxes are made) and I can vouch for
> them being really great toolboxes.  However, when it came time for me to buy
> a big roller I couldn't justify the expense.  There used to be great deals

Ven Wert!  Home of the TWO LANE beer drive through!

-w

From gzhookoff at e2m.com  Tue Aug 31 06:33:44 2010
From: gzhookoff at e2m.com (George Zhookoff)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:33:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
References: <000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com><OF69BC3F73.1B75D34C-ON85257790.003F26F8-85257790.003F47E0@mail.megageek.com>
	<001501cb4902$057a6260$106f2720$@com>
Message-ID: <56BC26A92D7B4244ACBF6A3182D9789509B22DDE@CARVER.norcross.local>

Check out company web site.  Looks like they still have the retail store
but it's only open one Saturday a month.

George Zhookoff
78 GMC Eleganza II

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Paul Parkanzky
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:46 AM
To: eric at megageek.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?

I haven't been there in many years.  I hear they actually moved the
outlet
since I was there last...  Ten years ago I remember seeing boxes that
retailed for ~$1200 going for $4-500 sometimes and it might be for a
fist-sized dent on the _back_ of the box.  Drawers would function fine,
etc.
I'd hate to see you take a trip like that and come up empty.

-Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: eric at megageek.com [mailto:eric at megageek.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:19 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Cc: Paul Parkanzky
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?

Paul writes...

>There used to be great deals
>to be had in the scratch and dents at their factory story if you happen

to
>live in the area though.

Are the deals good enough to make a special trip there from NJ?  (I
might
take a ride if so.)



Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a
rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
Waldo Emerson
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gzhookoff at e2m.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 08:17:15 2010
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:17:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <4C7CF24E.2030801@xxiii.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com> <4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com>
	<AANLkTinvBE7GYjoR-aLJs1uX8R_Tq-L_QMzL7GOd9_-J@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com> <4C7CF24E.2030801@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <001801cb4917$3ae89e70$b0b9db50$@com>

Brookside Beverage, on Ervin, right next to the small town's two bowling
alleys (Which were basically next door to one another), for those of you
playing along at home.

I believe that VW boasts the nation's oldest county library, and not much
else...

-Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne [mailto:wmc_st at xxiii.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:15 AM
To: Paul Parkanzky
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?

On 8/31/2010 6:58 AM, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> I grew up in Van Wert, OH (Where Kennedy boxes are made) and I can vouch
for
> them being really great toolboxes.  However, when it came time for me to
buy
> a big roller I couldn't justify the expense.  There used to be great deals

Ven Wert!  Home of the TWO LANE beer drive through!

-w

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Tue Aug 31 09:03:08 2010
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:03:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <MTAwMDAwNC5tY2ZldHJpaQ.1283266995@quikprotect>

I've had a Lowes Kobalt for 4 years:  four roller-bearing drawers and one of
those rubberized top store trays.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_274220-55738-LWK2PD07-BT06_4294932521_?productId=107
8281&Ntt=tool+box&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl_Garage_4294932521__s?Nt
k=i_products$rpp=15$No=30$Ntt=tool%20box 
It survived our moving company, which is something I can't say about many of
our other items!
I bought it as a scratch and dent at a local Lowes (it had a small scratch
on one side) - might be something to consider.  

- Ian

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?

I'm buying a friend some toolboxes for her birthday. Probably a roll-away
and a 7 drawer top box. Poking around the Sears store I see lots of crap,
and a few models that look decent but could be decent-looking crap. Anyone
bought Craftsman recently that can comment on good models?

I'm not opposed to buying used, but that's a lot more effort and will
require cleaning, and cleaning toolboxes sucks :-)

thanks,
jim

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Aug 31 09:59:19 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kia brake system issues ...
In-Reply-To: <25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
References: <A8FD9F5EEE314CB2987AB638019C8764@john5043a2d406>
	<6E169C8D7D274228A96E7197E77F8BA2@EricJRussellPC>
	<25C41A0AB26A4AD6ADB9E4C7BEDADA96@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008311157210.23445@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Only other thing I'd check is hub play.  If its big enough, going around a 
corner or something can cause the wheel to rock, pushing the caliper back 
in the bore.  When you hit the brakes, they travel longer getting the pad 
back to the rotor, so one pump, then the brakes feel fine.

Check it like you would wheel bearings, jack the car up and try and move 
the wheel pushing at the top of the tire and pulling at the bottom, then 
vice versa.

Or take it to a big parking lot and turn violently one way then the other, 
then try the brakes.

Mark


On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:

> Ok, here is the story ...
>
> I was out of town and my nephew called. He was driving his girlfriend's 2000 
> Kia Sephia Spectra. When he stepped on the brake pedal it went to the floor. 
> On the second pump the brakes worked well enough that he was able to stop the 
> car. He then drove carefully to a safe parking lot using the "two pump" 
> method and then called me. I asked him to look at the wheels to see if there 
> was any sigh of fluid loss and to check the master cylinder reservoir. 
> Everything looked to be in good shape. I then suggested that he either call 
> AAA or if he felt comfortable he could take back roads and drive the car over 
> to my house. He took the latter option.
>
> He called me when he got to my house and said "on the way over it was fine, 
> the brakes worked on the first try". Given that it was now in my driveway and 
> thinking that the large hammer principal might discover what might be amiss I 
> asked him to go out and step on the brake pedal as hard as he could. The 
> assumption being that if he blows a seal or a rubber line at least it was in 
> the driveway and easy to fix. He went out to the car and said the pedal again 
> went easily to the floor but would pump up like it had earlier.
>
> I told him where the keys were for my car so he and his girlfriend could at 
> least be on their way and told them I would look at the Kia when I got home.
>
> Upon getting home I took the car for a drive and the brakes seemed fine. 
> Reasonable pedal feel, reasonable stopping power ... after all it is a 10 
> year old Kia Sephia so the bar was not real high to begin with ... all seemed 
> to be fine.
>
> I am reluctant to give it back to them with a clean bill of health. The only 
> thing I can think of is to replace the master cylinder, but that seems like 
> throwing parts at the problem. But the master cylinder is the only thing I 
> can think of that might cause a soft pedal without leaking fluid on the 
> ground and "recovering". The thought of a small piece of rust or what ever 
> causing an intermittent seal failure between the front and back portions of 
> the master cylinder is the scenario I was thinking of.
>
> So if anyone has any other suggestions on how to diagnosis this I would 
> appreciate it. And even if you don't have a firm diagnosis, a well reasoned 
> "throw this at it" would be appreciated ... assuming it is short of replacing 
> the car or the entire brake system.
>
> Thanks,
> Arvid _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Aug 31 10:03:40 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:03:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008311201510.23445@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
> Have you looked at Harbor Freight?  I purchased there big roll around 
> cabinet,
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/13-drawer-red-industrial-quality-roller-cabinet-90320.html
>
> It's a lot better than the other smaller off brand cabinet is, and seems 
> stronger than many of the tool boxes I've seen at Sears.
>
> Also, the Kobalt boxes at Lowes don't look to bad.

I'll second this.  I have that box as well and while its not quite to the 
Mac / Snap-On / Matco level of pro boxes, its better than anything else 
I've put my hands on even if you discount the price.  Factor the price in 
and its a no-brainer.  I wouldn't even consider a Sears toolbox.  They're 
all way overpriced for what they are.

Mark

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Tue Aug 31 10:21:25 2010
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:21:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <001801cb4917$3ae89e70$b0b9db50$@com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.o
	rg><4C7C2FB1.3030600@xxiii.com>
	<4C7C48FE.7060805@xxiii.com><AANLkTinvBE7GYjoR-aLJs1uX8R_Tq-L_QMzL7GOd9_-J@
	mail.gmail.com><000f01cb48fb$6a700af0$3f5020d0$@com>
	<4C7CF24E.2030801@xxiii.com> <001801cb4917$3ae89e70$b0b9db50$@com>
Message-ID: <098E1A12860FC546BFB9617D2BEB5E145B65E37227@XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com>

It wasn't a craftsman toolbox but I was in the right place at the right time
to
get a very good deal on a repo snapon box that was the size of a small car.
It
had a minor scuff or two and was not my first choice in color but the price
was
right.

Your local tool pusher (any of the brands) may know about repos,
scratch/dent,
or just blowing out discontinued models at a fire sale price.


Stuart.

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Tue Aug 31 10:24:16 2010
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vincent Marshall)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:24:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008311201510.23445@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1008311201510.23445@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <A765DC77-CEC6-4A97-9111-5102C65D0925@te-motorworks.com>

I also have one of these harbor freight cabinets.  I use it as a second tool
chest for lathe tooling, drill bits, measuring instruments, and so forth.
It's reasonably well solid and built, and definitely a good value at ~ $400,
but I'm not thrilled with the over aggressive drawer detents that tend to
result in all of my stuff getting crammed up against the back of the drawer
after a few openings and closings.  This is with the non slip liners that come
with that box.  On a positive note, the detents seem to be wearing a little
bit and getting softer, after about a year or use.

-vin

On Aug 31, 2010, at 12:03 PM, Mark Andy wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, John T. Blair wrote:
>> Have you looked at Harbor Freight?  I purchased there big roll around
cabinet,
>>
>>
http://www.harborfreight.com/13-drawer-red-industrial-quality-roller-cabinet-
90320.html
>>
>> It's a lot better than the other smaller off brand cabinet is, and seems
stronger than many of the tool boxes I've seen at Sears.
>>
>> Also, the Kobalt boxes at Lowes don't look to bad.
>
> I'll second this.  I have that box as well and while its not quite to the
Mac / Snap-On / Matco level of pro boxes, its better than anything else I've
put my hands on even if you discount the price.  Factor the price in and its a
no-brainer.  I wouldn't even consider a Sears toolbox.  They're all way
overpriced for what they are.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/vlm at te-motorworks.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Aug 31 11:12:07 2010
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:12:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <A765DC77-CEC6-4A97-9111-5102C65D0925@te-motorworks.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1008311201510.23445@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<A765DC77-CEC6-4A97-9111-5102C65D0925@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <4C7D37E7.70307@milleredp.com>

On 8/31/2010 9:24 AM, Vincent Marshall wrote:
> I also have one of these harbor freight cabinets.  I use it as a second tool
> chest for lathe tooling, drill bits, measuring instruments, and so forth.

They're not mobile, but I bought six Vidmar roller-drawer cabinets out 
of the electronics shop at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard when the last 
remnants were being auctioned off six or seven years ago.

They're about 30W x 25D x 60H, most of mine have 11 drawers in combos of 
3-5in deep.  I think I bought them in lots of 2-3 for about $225 a 
cabinet IIRC.

These were built during the Nixon Administration (got a friend who's 
into old musical stuff who was quite happy to take all the 
individually-wrapped old resistors, capacitors, and etc. that came out 
of the bottom of them, the SPS-40 radars may be gone but the Marshall 
amps live on...) and were covered in a fair bit of crud but they cleaned 
up nicely, and Stanley Vidmar's still got dividers and etc. that will fit.

The worst part is that I've only got three of them filled and properly 
organized so far, I'm about to move all the electrical terminals and 
tools into four drawers in another one over the next couple of nights...

John.

From marka at maracing.com  Tue Aug 31 14:01:51 2010
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:01:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman toolboxes?
In-Reply-To: <A765DC77-CEC6-4A97-9111-5102C65D0925@te-motorworks.com>
References: <0a0f2af1e5c7774e71e24000a6d165f5.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20100830175741.047509e0@cox.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1008311201510.23445@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<A765DC77-CEC6-4A97-9111-5102C65D0925@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008311601050.28689@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Vincent Marshall wrote:
> but I'm not thrilled with the over aggressive drawer detents that tend 
> to result in all of my stuff getting crammed up against the back of the 
> drawer after a few openings and closings.  This is with the non slip 
> liners that come with that box.  On a positive note, the detents seem to 
> be wearing a little bit and getting softer, after about a year or use.

Yeah, the friction latches are a little aggressive.  A friend told me that 
wheel bearing grease on the slides helps with this, but I haven't tried it 
yet.

Mark