From mark at bradakis.com Thu Apr 1 01:49:47 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 02:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Fools and Funding Message-ID: <20100401084947.0A18A2E0B2@bradakis.com> No, this is not a political rant about the scoundrels on Capitol Hill. I'll rant about that elsewhere, probably the prattle forum on the Team.Net forums. For the moment, though, consider this my annual State of Team.Net speech. It is getting sent out on All Fool's Day. More on that in a bit. Back in April of 1991 the domain team.net was registered. We are 19 years old this month. Of course there were a few years before then that email was just sent to various places as the lists were in their infancy. The patriarch of the family was SOL, the Scions of Lucas, thanks to Dale Cook and Jim Muller. Now there are over 60 Team.Net email lists, and about 14,000 subscribers scattered about the planet. And 19 years old describes my age when I moved to Salt Lake City, a young lad looking for adventure in the mountains through climbing and skiing. And many an adventure was to be had. The biggest was no doubt the Weird Winter Wall trip of 1977. I really need to write that up, get a bunch of the slides digitized to share with others. The short version is that I am amazingly lucky to still be alive. It was April 1st, 1977 when the four of us, hungry and exhausted, demoralized and chilled to the bone sat on a mountainside in the Wind Rivers and watched the sun come up. Sunrises are always beautiful, but to this day those first faintly glowing streaks of red, orange and gold have never looked so welcome as on that morning. We knew we'd make it, we'd see more sunrises. It seems appropriate that we returned to civilization on April Fool's day. A winter ascent of the North Face of Mt. Hooker seems a fool's errand in hindsight. But I survived. And Team.Net has survived. There have certainly been many times over the years when I've felt the fool for putting in the effort to keep it going. Just hitting the off switch and walking away would have been so easy. But far more prominent are the occasions where a well crafted message, an unsolicited thank you or donation, a T shirt or some trinket unexpectedly showing up at my doorstep makes me realize what a treasure Team.Net has been over the years. There are untold old classics out there still on the road, thanks to you folks. Sure, you may have never turned a wrench on them, or pushed them in or out of the garage, but the technical support provided, along with the email equivalent of a friendly smile and a heartfelt pat on the back has kept folks going. They've taken that fool's errand of a hopeless restoration and brought it back from near death to see another sunrise. If you see fit, please make use of the information provided at http://www.team.net/donate.html mjb. "But look, the morn in russet mantle clad walks o'er the dew of yon high eastward hill" Hamlet, Wm. Shakespeare From jamesf at groupwbench.org Thu Apr 1 15:07:50 2010 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:07:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapered roller bearing conundrum Message-ID: <53F9F701-26BF-49C6-9901-AF6042B01317@groupwbench.org> One of the motorcycle swingarm bearings was a little notchy so I thought I'd grease it. They're tapered rollers. Cake, right? Unable to pull the inner race out because of the seal stiction, I used the puller. Came out fine. Cleaned it up, hit it with compressed air and was almost done when the air hit that sweet spot and rollers went EVERYWHERE. Picked them all up and cleaned them and found the plastic cage and greased everything. Snicked the bearing-laden cage onto the inner race. Pushed it into the outer race which was still in the swingarm. It didn't go in all the way. Tap tap with a plastic hammer. Nothing. Hm. Tried pulling it out. Nothing. Got the puller again. Nothing. Pulled REALLY HARD and the outer race came out. Somehow I managed to wedge the rollers in the races so that they can't come apart. They seem stuck between the bottom of the inner race and the top of the outer race. Anyone debugged this before? List for a new one is $62. It'd be real nice if I could fix this one... thanks, jim From eltonclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 17:46:05 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:46:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fools and Funding In-Reply-To: <20100401084947.0A18A2E0B2@bradakis.com> References: <20100401084947.0A18A2E0B2@bradakis.com> Message-ID: *Thanks for what you do Mark . My support is on the way by PayPals and I want to "guilt" everyone who enjoys the lists but hasn't yet put anything in the pot! * *Tony* On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > No, this is not a political rant about the scoundrels on Capitol Hill. > I'll rant about that elsewhere, probably the prattle forum on the > Team.Net forums. For the moment, though, consider this my annual > State of Team.Net speech. It is getting sent out on All Fool's > Day. More on that in a bit. > > Back in April of 1991 the domain team.net was registered. We are 19 > years old this month. Of course there were a few years before then > that email was just sent to various places as the lists were in their > infancy. The patriarch of the family was SOL, the Scions of Lucas, > thanks to Dale Cook and Jim Muller. Now there are over 60 Team.Net > email lists, and about 14,000 subscribers scattered about the planet. > > And 19 years old describes my age when I moved to Salt Lake City, a > young lad looking for adventure in the mountains through climbing and > skiing. And many an adventure was to be had. The biggest was no > doubt the Weird Winter Wall trip of 1977. I really need to write that > up, get a bunch of the slides digitized to share with others. The > short version is that I am amazingly lucky to still be alive. It was > April 1st, 1977 when the four of us, hungry and exhausted, demoralized > and chilled to the bone sat on a mountainside in the Wind Rivers and > watched the sun come up. Sunrises are always beautiful, but to this > day those first faintly glowing streaks of red, orange and gold have > never looked so welcome as on that morning. We knew we'd make it, > we'd see more sunrises. > > It seems appropriate that we returned to civilization on April Fool's > day. A winter ascent of the North Face of Mt. Hooker seems a fool's > errand in hindsight. But I survived. > > And Team.Net has survived. There have certainly been many times over > the years when I've felt the fool for putting in the effort to keep it > going. Just hitting the off switch and walking away would have been > so easy. > > But far more prominent are the occasions where a well crafted message, > an unsolicited thank you or donation, a T shirt or some trinket > unexpectedly showing up at my doorstep makes me realize what a > treasure Team.Net has been over the years. There are untold old > classics out there still on the road, thanks to you folks. Sure, you > may have never turned a wrench on them, or pushed them in or out of > the garage, but the technical support provided, along with the email > equivalent of a friendly smile and a heartfelt pat on the back has > kept folks going. They've taken that fool's errand of a hopeless > restoration and brought it back from near death to see another sunrise. > > > If you see fit, please make use of the information provided at > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > mjb. > > > "But look, the morn in russet mantle clad walks o'er the dew of yon > high eastward hill" Hamlet, Wm. Shakespeare > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Apr 1 18:06:50 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:06:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] new ultra-portable MIG welder Message-ID: Had to send this out before the day ended. http://toolguyd.com/2010/04/new-18v-rechargeable-mig-welder/ Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From jandkstone99 at msn.com Thu Apr 1 18:07:24 2010 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:07:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com>, <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com>, <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com>, , <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com>, , Message-ID: No. And I have no idea how to even do that. In this particular case, all I did was rebuild the master; the slave was last year (or so). And, everything works fine. It just works a tad better when its been pumped. Like I said, this is a known problem with Alpine clutches. An air bubble gets trapped at the top of the slave and is a bitch to get out. I was just wondering if power bleeding might push it out better than vacuum or using a helper to pump it up. Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:04:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders From: dmscheidt at gmail.com To: jandkstone99 at msn.com CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Jim Stone wrote: Thanks David. I don't know exactly what it is about Alpine clutches, but know some people have resorted to raising the front end of the car and leaving the slave bleeder slightly open all night long (and draining into a jar with fluid in it) in order to get that last bit of air out. (I tried that once and it didn't seem to do anything.) I have also used my vacuum bleeder and the good old helper method and while everything works, there is no question in my mind that there is still a bit of air in there. I can feel the difference after I pump the system a couple of times. It is subtle, but definitely there. You're bench bleeding the system before you install it, right? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2 From pat at hornesystemstx.com Thu Apr 1 18:17:22 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:17:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tapered roller bearing conundrum In-Reply-To: <53F9F701-26BF-49C6-9901-AF6042B01317@groupwbench.org> References: <53F9F701-26BF-49C6-9901-AF6042B01317@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: <4BB545A2.1050000@hornesystemstx.com> Jim, Can't help with how to get the bearing apart again, but I suspect that the rollers are tapered and you have at least one in backwards. Is there a lip at the small end of the inner race that could be causing the rollers to hang? Try rotating the race to see if the rollers will let go. If the bearing seems to have some play in some of the rollers you might be able to use a paper clip or similar pick to lift each of the rollers from behind the lip on the race. Using compressed air should not be used to spin bearings, as you have found. I've seen some other ones come apart, but as I recall the main reason to not do it is that, even though they are not under load when you spin them up, the lack of lubricant can cause damage to the rollers/balls and races. Not sure exactly how this happens, but I have heard it from more than a few sources, so I put at least enough stock it to not spin them with air! Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 4/1/2010 5:07 PM: > One of the motorcycle swingarm bearings was a little notchy so I thought I'd > grease it. They're tapered rollers. Cake, right? Unable to pull the inner race > out because of the seal stiction, I used the puller. Came out fine. Cleaned it > up, hit it with compressed air and was almost done when the air hit that sweet > spot and rollers went EVERYWHERE. > > Picked them all up and cleaned them and found the plastic cage and greased > everything. Snicked the bearing-laden cage onto the inner race. Pushed it into > the outer race which was still in the swingarm. It didn't go in all the way. > Tap tap with a plastic hammer. Nothing. Hm. Tried pulling it out. Nothing. Got > the puller again. Nothing. Pulled REALLY HARD and the outer race came out. > > Somehow I managed to wedge the rollers in the races so that they can't come > apart. They seem stuck between the bottom of the inner race and the top of the > outer race. Anyone debugged this before? > > List for a new one is $62. It'd be real nice if I could fix this one... > > thanks, > jim > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From mark at nashvilletn.org Thu Apr 1 19:57:28 2010 From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:57:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com>, <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com>, <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com>, , <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com>, , Message-ID: Jim, I found a little video on line where a guy was showing a novel way to bleed a clutch slave. I tried it and it worked great. All he did was attach a plastic hose to a NEW oil can filled with brake fluid. Put the hose on the slave and pump the fluid UP to the master. Since it fills from the bottom up the air escapes from the master rather than trying to force it out the bottom. I did a TR the other day in about 5 minutes. Mark Nashville ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" No. And I have no idea how to even do that. In this particular case, all I did was rebuild the master; the slave was last year (or so). And, everything works fine. It just works a tad better when its been pumped. Like I said, this is a known problem with Alpine clutches. An air bubble gets trapped at the top of the slave and is a bitch to get out. I was just wondering if power bleeding might push it out better than vacuum or using a helper to pump it up. From pethier at comcast.net Thu Apr 1 21:05:46 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 04:05:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1532949127.9229401270181146148.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> OK, so I have never tried this with a TR... I put a new clutch slave in a Miata. Entire system was bone dry, all the fluid had drained out of the previous defective slave. I installed the new one dry, then poured fluid into the master reservoir. I did no bleeding at all, never touched the bleed screw in the slave. Instead, I jumped up and down on the clutch pedal for several minuted until I could feel the clutch working. I drove the car for a couple of years. Never had any clutch problems of any kind. I put a new clutch master in my TR4. Didn't bench-bleed it. Did conventional bleeding. No problems. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham Super Seven 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Mark" wrote: > From: "Mark" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:57:28 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders > > Jim, > > I found a little video on line where a guy was showing a novel way to > bleed > a clutch slave. I tried it and it worked great. All he did was > attach a > plastic hose to a NEW oil can filled with brake fluid. Put the hose > on the > slave and pump the fluid UP to the master. Since it fills from the > bottom > up the air escapes from the master rather than trying to force it out > the > bottom. I did a TR the other day in about 5 minutes. > > Mark > Nashville > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Stone" > > No. And I have no idea how to even do that. In this particular case, > all I > did was rebuild the master; the slave was last year (or so). And, > everything > works fine. It just works a tad better when its been pumped. > > Like I said, this is a known problem with Alpine clutches. An air > bubble > gets > trapped at the top of the slave and is a bitch to get out. I was > just > wondering if power bleeding might push it out better than vacuum or > using a > helper to pump it up. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 21:19:32 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 00:19:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com> <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com> <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com> <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:07 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > No. And I have no idea how to even do that. In this particular case, all > I did was rebuild the master; the slave was last year (or so). And, > everything works fine. It just works a tad better when its been pumped. > Bench bleeding is a way of filling the cylinders with fluid, and not air. If there's no air in the cylinders, less air gets in the system, and there's less air to bleed out. The basic idea is that you hook hoses to outlets of the cylinders, fill the reservoir, and work the pump. Many master cylinders (not Girling ones, of course) come with the needed bits. You can also make one out of brake bits, if you've got them around, or buy a kit (dorman, the Help! people, sell one that fits most stuff for about ten bucks) from your FLAPS. > Like I said, this is a known problem with Alpine clutches. An air bubble > gets trapped at the top of the slave and is a bitch to get out. I was just > wondering if power bleeding might push it out better than vacuum or using a > helper to pump it up. > > yes, it will. But bench bleeding the slave will prevent the problem. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Apr 1 23:44:11 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 23:44:11 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: <1532949127.9229401270181146148.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1532949127.9229401270181146148.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <080101cad22f$e74ab810$0301a8c0@randall> > OK, so I have never tried this with a TR... On my TR3s, I have to get the clutch MC "wet" first, probably because it's not a straight downhill shot from the reservoir to the MC. But just loosening the outlet fitting for a minute will do that. After that, I find that a few cycle of pumping it up, then holding for a few seconds and releasing; will work most of the air out. But that doesn't work for brakes. For the last few times I've had the brake open, I've tried "gravity" bleeding, which actually seems to work pretty good. Just open the bleed valve and let the fluid ooze out, until there are no more bubbles. I did that when I moved the front calipers from my wrecked TR3A to the project TR3, and the resulting pedal was high and hard. Randall From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Fri Apr 2 08:22:38 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:22:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com>, <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com>, <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com>, , <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Mark wrote: > > attach a plastic hose to a NEW oil can filled with brake fluid. Put > the hose on the slave and pump the fluid UP to the master. Since it > fills from the bottom up the air escapes from the master rather than > trying to force it out the bottom. The problem with "back flowing" is that the inlet to the slave is often at the bottom, with the bleed at the top. So, since the air remains at the top, you don't completely get the air bubble out of the slave cylinder. If both the bleeder and the inlet line are on the top, it might work. I've had clutches where the car had to be jacked up with one end higher to angle the car and get the bleed nipple at the high end of the slave so the air would bleed out. I've also had to make a "tool" to bleed a removed (but connected) slave cylinder. The tool was a strap of metal with three holes. The outside two holes were used to bolt it to the flange of the slave cylinder. The middle one was used to put a bolt in to stick into the piston and keep it compressed. With the "tool" in place and the slave removed from the car, I could tilt it such that the bleed nipple was at the high spot, and all the air was removed. But normally, I use my 30+ year old EZ-Bleed pressure bleeder and have no problems at all. Tim Mullen From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Apr 2 10:02:22 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:02:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel speed ??? Message-ID: I've got an old big wheel mower that uses chain driven drive wheels against the big wheels to propel the mower... I think I'm confusing myself so here's the question. the rear wheel is 20" , the drive wheels are constant speed... which will drive the big wheel faster ? a smaller diameter drive wheel or a larger one. This mower moves just a little slower than I want to walk... I think I'm getting farther and faster confused thanks from a math challenged grass cutter John I think I've figured it out..... my sole purpose in life is to serve as a bad example :( From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Apr 2 10:54:52 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] PC-based or handheld oscilloscopes? In-Reply-To: <080101cad22f$e74ab810$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <817417.43104.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I'm considering getting a small handheld or PC-based oscilloscope, and I was wondering if anybody had any recommendations. My budget is something like $300, so the Tek or Fluke products are out of the question. I have seen standalone units from Vellman and some Chinese manufacturers, as well as some PC-based units like these: Link MSO-19: http://www.linkinstruments.com/mso19.htm Parallax PropScope: www.parallax.com Various models from Pico Tech: http://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope.html Any advice? I'm certain that I would use it for ignition analysis as well as other electronic applications. Thanks, Doug From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Fri Apr 2 11:09:43 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:09:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel speed ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E40B4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> john niolon wrote: > > I've got an old big wheel mower that uses chain driven drive wheels > against the big wheels to propel the mower... > <...> > the rear wheel is 20" , the drive wheels are constant speed... which > will drive the big wheel faster ? a smaller diameter drive wheel or > a larger one. If I understand, your mower has a chain driven wheel that turns a larger wheel that moves the mower along the ground. If that's the case, a larger chain driven wheel will make it go faster. The chain driven wheel is rotating at a constant speed, so it cover a larger "distance" if it is bigger around, which in turn will cause the regular wheel to cover a larger distance. Of course, it will have less "power" to move the mower along if it's geared higher to go faster... Tim Mullen From ericm at lne.com Fri Apr 2 11:10:11 2010 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:10:11 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel speed ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100402181011.GB19629@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 12:02:22PM -0500, john niolon wrote: > I've got an old big wheel mower that uses chain driven drive wheels against > the big wheels to propel the mower... I think I'm confusing myself so here's > the question. > > the rear wheel is 20" , the drive wheels are constant speed... which will > drive the big wheel faster ? a smaller diameter drive wheel or a larger one. Larger drive wheel would make it move faster. Eric From scott.hall at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 13:02:53 2010 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:02:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing tub spout In-Reply-To: <817417.43104.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <274494718.12075861270238573210.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Okay...so trying to replace a tub spigot that's got the 'pull up' knob to activate the shower. Its got the little slot on the underside closest to the wall, but there's not the screw I expected to be there holding the spigot to the pipe. There's what looks like a 1/4" rod running parallel to the spigot. There doesn't seem to be any mechanical 'thing' holding the spigot on the pipe, or against the wall. Anyone want to hazard a guess on how to get this thing off? Or how to fix the spigot so that when you pull up the knob, it stops the water flow and activates the shower (the reason I want to replace the spigot anyway). Thanks. Scott From jandkstone99 at msn.com Fri Apr 2 14:19:32 2010 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:19:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com>, , <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com>, , <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com>, , , , <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com>, , , , , , <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the education, guys. But one thing still confuses me about bench bleeding. Once the cylinder is bench bled, you still have to install it on the car. Won't fluid leak out and air get into the system during installation? I know I can put a bolt into the inlet port during the installation process, but I've still got to remove that bolt in order to hook up the hydraulic lines. Or, I am being really stupid and missing something obvious? And, for the record, I believe Tim is describing the Alpine problem. The bleed screw is on top of the slave and the air bubble collects just above the screw. Some have reported success jacking the front of the car up as Tim describes, although that didn't do it for me the last time I tried. It is good to know that Tim has had success with the pressure bleeder. I made one a few years ago following the Morgan article, but had trouble with the brake master cap leaking and never tried it again. I will try drilling an old clutch master cap and giving that a try. And next time, I will bench bleed everything first! > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:22:38 -0500 > From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders > > Mark wrote: > > > > attach a plastic hose to a NEW oil can filled with brake fluid. Put > > the hose on the slave and pump the fluid UP to the master. Since it > > fills from the bottom up the air escapes from the master rather than > > trying to force it out the bottom. > > The problem with "back flowing" is that the inlet to the slave is often > at the bottom, with the bleed at the top. So, since the air remains at > the top, you don't completely get the air bubble out of the slave > cylinder. If both the bleeder and the inlet line are on the top, it > might work. > > I've had clutches where the car had to be jacked up with one end higher > to angle the car and get the bleed nipple at the high end of the slave > so the air would bleed out. > > I've also had to make a "tool" to bleed a removed (but connected) slave > cylinder. The tool was a strap of metal with three holes. The outside > two holes were used to bolt it to the flange of the slave cylinder. The > middle one was used to put a bolt in to stick into the piston and keep > it compressed. With the "tool" in place and the slave removed from the > car, I could tilt it such that the bleed nipple was at the high spot, > and all the air was removed. > > But normally, I use my 30+ year old EZ-Bleed pressure bleeder and have > no problems at all. > > Tim Mullen > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 14:58:04 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:58:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel speed ??? In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E40B4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E40B4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote: > john niolon wrote: > > > > I've got an old big wheel mower that uses chain driven drive wheels > > against the big wheels to propel the mower... > > <...> > > the rear wheel is 20" , the drive wheels are constant speed... which > > will drive the big wheel faster ? a smaller diameter drive wheel or > > a larger one. > > If I understand, your mower has a chain driven wheel that turns a larger > wheel that moves the mower along the ground. > > If that's the case, a larger chain driven wheel will make it go faster. > > The chain driven wheel is rotating at a constant speed, so it cover a > larger "distance" if it is bigger around, which in turn will cause the > regular wheel to cover a larger distance. > > Of course, it will have less "power" to move the mower along if it's > geared higher to go faster... > I've never seen a mower set up like this. Seems a bit rube goldbergie. the other way you may be able to make it go faster is to change the sprockets on the chain drive. IF you make the engine driven one bigger, it will make the wheel driving sprocket turn faster (higher rpms). Alternatively, put a smaller rear sprocket on. Or do a combination of the two. You'll probably nee a different length of chain. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From strovato at optonline.net Fri Apr 2 15:18:20 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:18:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com> <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com> <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com> <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <0L0900JW6SOBS8A0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Even if you bench bleed it, you still have to bleed it in the car. It is just helpful to have only a little bit of air to get rid of, instead of an entirely empty cylinder. At 05:19 PM 4/2/2010, Jim Stone wrote: >Thanks for the education, guys. But one thing still confuses me about bench >bleeding. Once the cylinder is bench bled, you still have to install it on >the car. Won't fluid leak out and air get into the system during >installation? I know I can put a bolt into the inlet port during the >installation process, but I've still got to remove that bolt in order to hook >up the hydraulic lines. Or, I am being really stupid and missing something >obvious? From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Apr 2 15:49:48 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:49:48 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel speed ??? In-Reply-To: References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E40B4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <008e01cad2b6$cc7b6480$0301a8c0@randall> > I've never seen a mower set up like this. Seems a bit rube > goldbergie. We had one like that. The driving wheels were on a movable shaft, which lifted them away from the main wheels to stop the drive. A crude but effective clutch; better IMO than the more common (then) belt with a moving idler pulley. > You'll probably nee a different length of chain. Which I think would be the advantage of just changing the driving wheel diameter. The shaft moved in an arc, so it would just need to come a bit higher to accommodate larger driving wheels, probably just a linkage adjustment. The chain length doesn't need to change. Probably the exposed drive system is too dangerous by today's standards, but it was simple, effective and durable. Randall From strovato at optonline.net Fri Apr 2 16:20:03 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel speed ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0L0900JHBVHKRAG0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I think you've been provided with some good information so far. I find that one way to figure this out is to consider extreme cases. If the drive wheels were just the diameter of a pencil, you can imagine them spinning like crazy and the mower would barely move. And if the drive wheels were huge, imagine how fast the edge of that drive wheel would be flying by, and how fast it would then make the mower go. That's the way my mind works anyway. Or you can just ask us. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 01:02 PM 4/2/2010, john niolon wrote: >which will >drive the big wheel faster ? a smaller diameter drive wheel or a larger one. >This mower moves just a little slower than I want to walk... I think I'm >getting farther and faster confused From strovato at optonline.net Fri Apr 2 16:26:24 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:26:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing tub spout References: <817417.43104.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0L0900H25VS24BH0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> If there is nothing else visible, then the spout usually just unscrews. You can get a pipe wrench and turn it, or try sticking a screwdriver into the spout and using that as a lever to unscrew it. Of course, if you have plans to reuse the spout, then care and padding are required to prevent damage to the surface. If you're putting on a new one anyway, you can be a little less careful. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 04:02 PM 4/2/2010, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: >Anyone want to hazard a guess on how to get this thing off? Or how >to fix the spigot so that when you pull up the knob, it stops the >water flow and activates the shower (the reason I want to replace >the spigot anyway). From shop at justbrits.com Fri Apr 2 17:43:15 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:43:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com>, <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com>, <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com>, , <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <4BB68F23.50503@justbrits.com> OK if I add .02 Jim -:) ?? << An air bubble gets trapped at the top of the slave and is a bitch to get out. >> Sounds exactly like Spridgets which I HAVE 'sperience with - Alpines no. So with that said, the Spridgets [& now that I think of it MGBs also] the slaves ARRIVE with the bleeder in the WRONG hole !! "Packaging" is "best" guess. LOL SO the problem you describe with hose at top & bleed at bottom becomes INCORRECT. Reverse them and all works as one would think. Now as Tim Mullan says: But normally, I use my 30+ year old EZ-Bleed pressure bleeder and have no problems at all. is GOSPEL IMNSHO !!!! Currently mine is only about 6 or 7 years old because every time I "lend" it out all I get back is a CHECK -:)-:)-:) !!!!! Then I have to get a NEW one. LOL This has happened around 9 - 10 times !?! eeZiBleed is the BEST thing since sliced bread !!!! I use it in my shop all the time with [knock on wood] PERFECT results every time. I would bet that eeZiBleed is the best selling item single thing I have/do sold/sell over the years. I can do a MGTD in less then 10 mts from start of set-up to finish -:) !! Ed Please visit MY site at: www.justbrits.com From pat at hornesystemstx.com Fri Apr 2 17:52:25 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:52:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing tub spout In-Reply-To: <274494718.12075861270238573210.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <274494718.12075861270238573210.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BB69149.3040404@hornesystemstx.com> Scott, Several answers here. The spigot may have an internal female pipe thread, so it may just screw off. If it really old, it may break or twist the pipe loose, so be careful. As top how to clean the valve in place, get a plastic bag and some white vinegar. Add a cup or two of vinegar to the bag, tape the bag over the spout and squeeze the bag until the vinegar is up in the spigot. Tape the bag compressed to keep the vinegar inside the spigot. Leave it for a day, remove the bag and check operation. Repeat if necessary. I use this method to clean my shower heads also. Peace, Pat Thusly spake scott.hall at comcast.net, On 4/2/2010 3:02 PM: > Okay...so trying to replace a tub spigot that's got the 'pull up' knob to activate the shower. Its got the little slot on the underside closest to the wall, but there's not the screw I expected to be there holding the spigot to the pipe. There's what looks like a 1/4" rod running parallel to the spigot. There doesn't seem to be any mechanical 'thing' holding the spigot on the pipe, or against the wall. > > Anyone want to hazard a guess on how to get this thing off? Or how to fix the spigot so that when you pull up the knob, it stops the water flow and activates the shower (the reason I want to replace the spigot anyway). > > Thanks. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Apr 2 18:36:52 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:36:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel responses Message-ID: <041260B6BD2D43708C05AE0201521C83@john5043a2d406> thanks guys for all the info... the mower is an 80's model Yazoo commercial walk behind.... built like a mini bush hog... the blade is 1/4" thick and the deck is strong enough to support you when you rock it back off the ground... it's a machine from the old (before OSHA) days... it was designed to take different drive wheels without any other adjustment other than adjusting the length of the actuating rod on the self prop mechanism.. dang thing would climb a tree if the tires would grip on the vertical... now... to find obsolete drive wheels... e-pay ??? on my way john I've learned in life that my primary goal is to serve as a bad example From jibjib at att.net Fri Apr 2 18:54:30 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:54:30 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: <1532949127.9229401270181146148.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1532949127.9229401270181146148.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <45568F7B7C0848E0B61995E0DB4A5722@hpa1477c> All depends on the car. My 1988 Saab 9000 required pressure or vacuum to get it bled. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of pethier at comcast.net Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 9:06 PM To: Mark Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders OK, so I have never tried this with a TR... I put a new clutch slave in a Miata. Entire system was bone dry, all the fluid had drained out of the previous defective slave. I installed the new one dry, then poured fluid into the master reservoir. I did no bleeding at all, never touched the bleed screw in the slave. Instead, I jumped up and down on the clutch pedal for several minuted until I could feel the clutch working. I drove the car for a couple of years. Never had any clutch problems of any kind. I put a new clutch master in my TR4. Didn't bench-bleed it. Did conventional bleeding. No problems. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham Super Seven 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Mark" wrote: > From: "Mark" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:57:28 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders > > Jim, > > I found a little video on line where a guy was showing a novel way to > bleed > a clutch slave. I tried it and it worked great. All he did was > attach a > plastic hose to a NEW oil can filled with brake fluid. Put the hose > on the > slave and pump the fluid UP to the master. Since it fills from the > bottom > up the air escapes from the master rather than trying to force it out > the > bottom. I did a TR the other day in about 5 minutes. > > Mark > Nashville > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Stone" > > No. And I have no idea how to even do that. In this particular case, > all I > did was rebuild the master; the slave was last year (or so). And, > everything > works fine. It just works a tad better when its been pumped. > > Like I said, this is a known problem with Alpine clutches. An air > bubble > gets > trapped at the top of the slave and is a bitch to get out. I was > just > wondering if power bleeding might push it out better than vacuum or > using a > helper to pump it up. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From jandkstone99 at msn.com Fri Apr 2 19:05:03 2010 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 21:05:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: <4BB68F23.50503@justbrits.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com>, , <5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com>, , <2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com>, , , , <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com>, , , , , , <4BB68F23.50503@justbrits.com> Message-ID: Thanks again, guys. Ed, I may have said that wrong. The bleeder goes on top in the Alpine, too. But, so do the bubbles. :) > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:43:15 -0500 > From: shop at justbrits.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders > > OK if I add .02 Jim -:) ?? > > << An air bubble gets trapped at the top of the slave and is a > bitch to get out. >> > > Sounds exactly like Spridgets which I HAVE 'sperience > with - Alpines no. > > So with that said, the Spridgets [& now that I think of it > MGBs also] the slaves ARRIVE with the bleeder in the > WRONG hole !! "Packaging" is "best" guess. LOL > SO the problem you describe with hose at top & bleed at > bottom becomes INCORRECT. Reverse them and all > works as one would think. > > Now as Tim Mullan says: > > But normally, I use my 30+ year old EZ-Bleed pressure bleeder and have > no problems at all. > > > is GOSPEL IMNSHO !!!! Currently mine is only about 6 or 7 > years old because every time I "lend" it out all I get back > is a CHECK -:)-:)-:) !!!!! Then I have to get a NEW one. LOL > This has happened around 9 - 10 times !?! > > eeZiBleed is the BEST thing since sliced bread !!!! I use it > in my shop all the time with [knock on wood] PERFECT > results every time. I would bet that eeZiBleed is the best > selling item single thing I have/do sold/sell over the years. > > I can do a MGTD in less then 10 mts from start of set-up to > finish -:) !! > > Ed > Please visit MY site at: > www.justbrits.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jandkstone99 at msn.com > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From strovato at optonline.net Fri Apr 2 19:50:12 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 22:50:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] drive wheel responses In-Reply-To: <041260B6BD2D43708C05AE0201521C83@john5043a2d406> References: <041260B6BD2D43708C05AE0201521C83@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <0L0A00IPU57KATJ0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> When you say stuff like that, I just have to go and look it up: Where did OSHA come from? The United State Congress, in response to the high number of injuries, illnesses, and fatalities experienced by workers in American workplaces, passed legislation titled the Occupational Safety & Health (OSH) Act of 1970. It was signed into law by the President in December of 1970, and became effective in April of 1971 (and you thought the only thing we had to remember Richard Nixon for was the Watergate scandal). To help implement this new Act, Congress authorized the creation of a new federal agency, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). At 09:36 PM 4/2/2010, John Niolon wrote: >the mower is an 80's model Yazoo commercial >walk behind.... built like a mini bush hog... the blade is 1/4" thick and the >deck is strong enough to support you when you rock it back off the ground... >it's a machine from the old (before OSHA) days... From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Fri Apr 2 21:21:37 2010 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 21:21:37 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Subject: PC-based or handheld oscilloscopes? Message-ID: <<< I'm considering getting a small handheld or PC-based oscilloscope, and I was wondering if anybody had any recommendations. My budget is something like $300, so the Tek or Fluke products are out of the question. I have seen standalone units from Vellman and some Chinese manufacturers, as well as some PC-based units like these: Link MSO-19: http://www.linkinstruments.com/mso19.htm Parallax PropScope: www.parallax.com Various models from Pico Tech: http://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope.html Any advice? I'm certain that I would use it for ignition analysis as well as other electronic applications. Thanks, Doug >>> Take a look at ebay. You can easily find a good Tek scope for that much or less - just took a look and saw a TDS 4 channel for $250 BIN. Mark. From jibjib at att.net Fri Apr 2 22:44:24 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 22:44:24 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: <45568F7B7C0848E0B61995E0DB4A5722@hpa1477c> References: <1532949127.9229401270181146148.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <45568F7B7C0848E0B61995E0DB4A5722@hpa1477c> Message-ID: I need to clarify. The clutch on my 1988 Saab 9000 required pressure or vacuum to get it bled. Oddly enough, the Chilton and Bentley manuals indicated that one should use the ABS pump to pressure bleed the rear calipers. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack Brooks Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:55 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders All depends on the car. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of pethier at comcast.net Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 9:06 PM To: Mark Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders OK, so I have never tried this with a TR... I put a new clutch slave in a Miata. Entire system was bone dry, all the fluid had drained out of the previous defective slave. I installed the new one dry, then poured fluid into the master reservoir. I did no bleeding at all, never touched the bleed screw in the slave. Instead, I jumped up and down on the clutch pedal for several minuted until I could feel the clutch working. I drove the car for a couple of years. Never had any clutch problems of any kind. I put a new clutch master in my TR4. Didn't bench-bleed it. Did conventional bleeding. No problems. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham Super Seven 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Mark" wrote: > From: "Mark" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:57:28 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders > > Jim, > > I found a little video on line where a guy was showing a novel way to > bleed > a clutch slave. I tried it and it worked great. All he did was > attach a > plastic hose to a NEW oil can filled with brake fluid. Put the hose > on the > slave and pump the fluid UP to the master. Since it fills from the > bottom > up the air escapes from the master rather than trying to force it out > the > bottom. I did a TR the other day in about 5 minutes. > > Mark > Nashville > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Stone" > > No. And I have no idea how to even do that. In this particular case, > all I > did was rebuild the master; the slave was last year (or so). And, > everything > works fine. It just works a tad better when its been pumped. > > Like I said, this is a known problem with Alpine clutches. An air > bubble > gets > trapped at the top of the slave and is a bitch to get out. I was > just > wondering if power bleeding might push it out better than vacuum or > using a > helper to pump it up. > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Mon Apr 5 11:03:04 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 12:03:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, ,<5.1.0.14.2.20100328135343.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com>, ,<5.1.0.14.2.20100328192433.00c337f8@mail.avvanta.com>, ,<5A8E2BE2EAC2487A9BFA4496E3263F15@behavioral.com>, ,<2400a5d41003290946t462aa891v82e464d32aa773b4@mail.gmail.com>, ,, ,<2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com>, ,, , , , <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4340@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Two things about brake bleeding. When I was talking about the bleeder not being at the "top" I was referring to the case where the slave is mounted such that it points slightly "up" at an angle. The bleeder can be at the top of the rear of the slave, but if the slave is mounted so that it points "up", there can be air trapped "above" the level of the bleeder. Usually jacking the car on one end or the other can cure this. But I did have the one where the bleeder was cocked over to the side and the slave had to be removed to orient it so that the bleeder was the "high" spot. As for pressure bleeding caps, that is one advantage of the EZ-Bleeder for use with Little British cars. It comes with caps made to screw onto the Girling master cylinders. Motive is supposed to have a readymade cap too... Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 13:40:01 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:40:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake system bleeders In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4340@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4340@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote: > Two things about brake bleeding. When I was talking about the bleeder > not being at the "top" I was referring to the case where the slave is > mounted such that it points slightly "up" at an angle. The bleeder can > be at the top of the rear of the slave, but if the slave is mounted so > that it points "up", there can be air trapped "above" the level of the > bleeder. Usually jacking the car on one end or the other can cure this. > But I did have the one where the bleeder was cocked over to the side and > the slave had to be removed to orient it so that the bleeder was the > "high" spot. > > As for pressure bleeding caps, that is one advantage of the EZ-Bleeder > for use with Little British cars. It comes with caps made to screw onto > the Girling master cylinders. > > I was helping a friend bleed the clutch on a bmw a number of years ago. I was visiting, so I had no tools (for values of "no tools" equal to "drives a land rover cross country"...). We couldn't get the last bit of air out, for much the same reason you've described. A quick jaunt to the bike store yielded a no-good for biking inner tube, dug out of their trash ("You want an inner tube that's no good? Are you nuts?"). I cut it up so there was about a foot on either sie of the valve. tied a bunch of knots on one side, stretched the other over the reservoir, applied about two pounds of air, and presto, a bled clutch. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tputland at charter.net Mon Apr 5 13:57:12 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 12:57:12 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line Message-ID: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> Any out there have any experience with the rubber air hose sold by harbour freight? I have heard the tools they sell called "disposable" or throw away" tools because of poor quality. Is their air line hose going to be reliable or should I go else where? My garage is not heated so the line will be exposed to Wisconsin winter cold and Wisconsin summer heat. Thanks Tim Dairyland Datsuns From bspidell at comcast.net Mon Apr 5 14:39:14 2010 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:39:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line In-Reply-To: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> Message-ID: <381764439.3984731270499954728.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> No experience with generic HF air lines--frankly, it's probably a false economy--but HF does sell Goodyear air hoses (more expensive, of course). bs -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Monday, April 5, 2010 12:57:12 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line Any out there have any experience with the rubber air hose sold by harbour freight? I have heard the tools they sell called "disposable" or throw away" tools because of poor quality. Is their air line hose going to be reliable or should I go else where? My garage is not heated so the line will be exposed to Wisconsin winter cold and Wisconsin summer heat. Thanks Tim Dairyland Datsuns _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net From lspector at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 14:50:37 2010 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:50:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line In-Reply-To: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> References: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> Message-ID: Some of what HF sells is Goodyear branded. I picked up 50' of black rubber Goodyear hose from them ~5 years ago, and it's holding up well. It's not the most flexible stuff in the world, but it works. -Larry On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Tim wrote: > Any out there have any experience with the rubber air hose sold by harbour freight? I have heard the tools they sell called "disposable" or throw away" tools because of poor quality. Is their air line hose going to be reliable or should I go else where? > > My garage is not heated so the line will be exposed to Wisconsin winter cold and Wisconsin summer heat. > > Thanks > > Tim > Dairyland Datsuns From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 5 14:50:41 2010 From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line In-Reply-To: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> References: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> Message-ID: <301766.7801.qm@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've got a couple of their hoses. The rubber ones aren't too bad. The vinyl works fine in the summer but gets stiff when it gets cold. In a warm climate even the vinyl would work fine. Randy ________________________________ From: Tim To: Shop Talk Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 2:57:12 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line Any out there have any experience with the rubber air hose sold by harbour freight? I have heard the tools they sell called "disposable" or throw away" tools because of poor quality. Is their air line hose going to be reliable or should I go else where? My garage is not heated so the line will be exposed to Wisconsin winter cold and Wisconsin summer heat. Thanks Tim Dairyland Datsuns _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/mistertwo at sbcglobal.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Apr 5 16:06:46 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:06:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line In-Reply-To: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> References: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> Message-ID: <1c2701cad50c$48cbcc80$da636580$@rr.com> > Any out there have any experience with the rubber air hose sold by > harbour freight? As noted, they sell several different grades. The house brand blue PVC seemed to hold up better for me than the black rubber house brand, or even the black rubber Goodyear. Maybe I'm extra hard on them or something, but it seems like it's always the last few feet before the tool end that degrades for me. I'm currently using the orange Goodyear "Pliovic", which I like because it's more flexible, but I've had to trim back the end twice now in perhaps 10 years. I cut off the crimp ferrule and replaced it with several turns of safety wire, capped with heat shrink tubing (so I could reuse the original fitting). No idea how cold would affect any of them. -- Randall in sunny SoCA From shop at justbrits.com Mon Apr 5 17:14:53 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 18:14:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line In-Reply-To: <381764439.3984731270499954728.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <381764439.3984731270499954728.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BBA6EED.6050701@justbrits.com> << but HF does sell Goodyear air hoses (more expensive, of course). >> Goodyear's "rejects" most likely -:)-:) !! As I inferred to Tim in a PM, I would NOT purchase something that could be DANGEROUS from them. Ed From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Mon Apr 5 17:42:10 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 19:42:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line In-Reply-To: <20100405155712.OTTS0.4136494.root@mp17> Message-ID: <207C48C31CEF4E06A7949471988542C7@Digilink1> I don't think of HF as poor quality....it is just that they are worth what you pay for them. Most of the stuff is OK for the hobbyist. As for the air line...don't buy rubber but pay a little more for the neoprene. I have one that I have used for at least 10 years. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tim Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 3:57 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line Any out there have any experience with the rubber air hose sold by harbour freight? I have heard the tools they sell called "disposable" or throw away" tools because of poor quality. Is their air line hose going to be reliable or should I go else where? My garage is not heated so the line will be exposed to Wisconsin winter cold and Wisconsin summer heat. Thanks Tim Dairyland Datsuns _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com From eric at megageek.com Mon Apr 5 21:30:01 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:00:01 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor freight air line In-Reply-To: <207C48C31CEF4E06A7949471988542C7@Digilink1> Message-ID: I just wanted to jump in here with some food for thought on these air lines. I have a bunch of different grades and qualities of air lines that I bought or acquired over the years. What I have noticed is that how and where you use them seems to dictate how long they will last. If you only use them inside, on a concrete floor, never drive over them with vehicles, they seem to last indefinitely. If you have a hose that is used on a gravel driveway and gets run over a few times, that hose will wear quickly. I actually kind of place my hoses depending on service. I use cheap ones for "hard use" and better quality ones for the inside stuff. When the cheap ones fails, its never been "dramatic." Just air leaking out of the hose. As with most HF items, you get what you pay for. But in most cases, I found that I don't need the industrial quality for my shop use. Case in point, when I was installing my car lift, I needed a heavy duty hammer drill. These items are expensive and I knew I don't really have a normal need for them. So I when onto HF ebay auctions (they used to do this for their clearance items.) I found a brand new hammer drill, on bid for $0.02 NO RESERVE. In fact, they had about 20 of the same ones listed. It was a flat rate $12.50 for shipping. I paid exactly $12.53 for a brand new HF hammer drill. It did the job, and to my surprise, it did it well. I've used the drill a few times over the years If it died the next time I used it, I wouldn't sweat it. Now, if I was a contractor that needed to depend on that drill to make money, I would have bought a high end, name brand from a local dealer. YMMV, but for me, the very few times that HF stuff turned out to be unusable junk is WELL outweighed by the times that I've save hundreds of dollars on tools and was surprised. One last thought, find a HF store near you and go check it out. (Even if it is a few hours away.) It's a fun trip, bring a buddy or son and make a "male bonding" experience out of it. The "local" HF store is 1.5 hours from my house, and all the staff there now me by name! 8>) When you are there you can pick up and feel the item(s) you want to buy. My other advice bring lots of money! 8>) (Am I the only one here that normally has girlfriends that would rather see me go to a strip club than a HF store?) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 21:54:05 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 23:54:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbour freight air line In-Reply-To: <4BBA6EED.6050701@justbrits.com> References: <381764439.3984731270499954728.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4BBA6EED.6050701@justbrits.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Shop at " Just Brits " wrote: > << but HF does sell Goodyear air hoses (more expensive, of > course). >> > > Goodyear's "rejects" most likely -:)-:) !! > > They're not marked as such. They've got the same markings as the stuff I've gotten elsewhere (for less money, it happens. Not everything at HF is a good price.). Their performance has been the same as the stuff I've gotten elsewhere. > As I inferred to Tim in a PM, I would NOT purchase > No, you implied. And you probably didn't even do that. There's just a bald statement here. > something that could be DANGEROUS from them. > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dmscheidt at gmail.com > > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tputland at charter.net Tue Apr 6 05:16:14 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 4:16:14 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] air lines Message-ID: <20100406071614.F7UT4.4170370.root@mp20> Thanks for the input all! The air line I currently have is some sort of plastic that is just too stiff in the cold and I am tired of fighting with it. It has held up just fine for what I use it for, but again, unless it is over 55 or so outside, this line is almost impossible to move around. Thanks again. Tim From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Apr 6 10:30:07 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:30:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor freight air line In-Reply-To: References: <207C48C31CEF4E06A7949471988542C7@Digilink1> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4667@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Moose wrote: > > As with most HF items, you get what you pay for. But in most > cases, I found that I don't need the industrial quality for > my shop use. And that is the "secret" to Harbor Freight tools. I have various air hoses that I've bought from HF over the last 25 years or so. They still work fine. A couple get stiff when cold, others don't. The auto retracting hose reels work fine, although the one that I bought 25 years ago for $30 (25 foot long hose) finally stopped locking in place (I need to replace that one). I have air tools that I commonly use. I destroyed one "jitterbug" sander after about 15 years. Bought a replacement one for $20 on sale. Much better deal than a professional model for $200. I also have a few quality name brand (non-HF) tools that I use when the cheap HF stuff just won't hack it (my 600 ft-lb IR impact for instance), but for the most part, HF works fine. It's kind of like cars. We don't always need to drive around in Mercedes quality. Chevy quality is just fine. Sometimes Hyundai quality is all you need (Actually I really like our new Elantra). Harbor Freight is Chevy and Hyundai - although sometimes it's Yugo... Tim Mullen From strovato at optonline.net Tue Apr 6 10:46:53 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:46:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4340@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <0L0G008O9S0EOQ70@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Just thought I'd tell you all what happened when I used my homemade pressure bleeder on my MG Magnette last night. I completed the right rear wheel, no problem. As I moved to the left rear wheel I think, what's that sound like it's raining? And why is it coming from under the car? And what is that giant puddle? On the MG, the master cylinder has a small round cap. You remove that to reveal a hole for adding fluid. That's where you attach the pressure bleeder. The whole top of the master cylinder is bolted on to the assembly. Apparently, the gasket under that top was not up to the task of containing pressure and it failed, resulting in a brake fluid lake. The only good news is that this car uses silicone brake fluid, so there was no paint damage, just a big mess. I wasn't using what I consider to be unreasonable pressure. It's just that a very old gasket that usually doesn't see any pressure was suddenly asked to handle some, and it wasn't up to the task. The old up and down on the brake pedal method is starting to sound better about now. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 12:00:55 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:00:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor freight air line In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4667@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <207C48C31CEF4E06A7949471988542C7@Digilink1> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4667@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote: > > > It's kind of like cars. We don't always need to drive around in > Mercedes quality. Chevy quality is just fine. Sometimes Hyundai > quality is all you need (Actually I really like our new Elantra). > Harbor Freight is Chevy and Hyundai - although sometimes it's Yugo... > > It's always Yugo: there's no quality control. So if you get a good thing, it's good. And if you don't, it's crap. several years ago, I bought three 4.5 angle grinders at the same time. They were on a blow out sale, and I was getting ready to do a bunch of welding, and having different sorts of wheels ready to go is a huge time saver. One of them lasted about a day, probably 30 or 40 minutes actual use. The second survived the project, but eat its bearings a month or three later. The third is still going fine. this is still true of harbor frieght. As far as I can tell, their quality control is firing a supplier when too much stuff is returned. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Apr 6 12:15:16 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:15:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor freight air line In-Reply-To: References: <207C48C31CEF4E06A7949471988542C7@Digilink1> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4667@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4709@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> David wrote: C It's always Yugo: there's no quality control. So if you get a good thing, it's good. And if you don't, it's crap. Like I said, Ibve had a different experience. I have an oil impact that I use all the time for wheels, etc. It works just fine. It cost $15. I have my $200 Ingersoll Rand impact when I need something more. I have air drills, sanders, grinders, cut off wheels, chisels, and ratchets. All are still going strong after many, many years. I donbt make my living using them, just use them occasionally on the weekends. If it fails, it was cheap most have not failed me. I can use my $10 air powered cut off tool the four or five times a year that I need it for 20 years. Or I could go buy a name brand one for $200 and still use it for 20 years. The $10 one is much more cost effective for my level of use. Same thing with the air hoses. At least one of my hoses was bought from a name brand store, the rest are Harbor Freight. After 20 years, I couldnbt tell you which was which as they are all still working (I have several 50 foot long air hoses that I can connect together to get to the back corner of the yard when necessary). If you make you living with your tools, then by all means get the name brand, quality tools (Snap-On, Craftsman, SK, etc.). For occasional use, Harbor Freight works fine for most things. Itbs pretty easy to justify buying a $10 air powered cut-off tool if I have to cut a hunk of angle iron. Otherwise, Ibd have to use a hacksaw as a $200 tool would be hard to justify. Just check what you are getting b buy the Chevy stuff, not the Yugo stuffb& Tim Mullen From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Apr 6 16:54:20 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:54:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor freight air line In-Reply-To: References: <207C48C31CEF4E06A7949471988542C7@Digilink1> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4667@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <1e4401cad5dc$18a83a40$49f8aec0$@rr.com> > As far as I can tell, their > quality > control is firing a supplier when too much stuff is returned. And giving you a new one when you take one back. My HF 4" angle grinder sounds horrible; I figured the gears would be gone in a few weeks. Over 10 years later, it's still going strong, in spite of having been loaned to a teenager to strip an entire VW bug with it. By contrast, the extended nose die grinder I got only ran for a minute or so before dying. But even adding up the cost of both tools, plus an extra trip, I've still spent a lot less than a quality version of either tool. -- Randall From strovato at optonline.net Tue Apr 6 17:30:56 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:30:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] DeWalt grinder problem In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4709@XMBIL103.northgru m.com> References: <207C48C31CEF4E06A7949471988542C7@Digilink1> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4667@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4709@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <0L0H003D1ANR5LE0@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> This is a fairly specific question, but you guys know everything, right? I have a DeWalt DW402 4 1/2" angle grinder. There is a pin you push in to lock the spindle so you can change the grinding wheels. In the manual it says, do not push this in while the grinder is operating, or you will break it. Well, somebody, couldn't have been me, of course, must have done this. I can still get it to lock if I push it in extra far, but it is a pain and is probably on borrowed time. I have looked online and I do not see this pin called out as a separate part. The whole gear case top is $25 and I suppose it contains that assembly. Have any of you ever opened one of these things up? Is it possible to replace just the pin? Thanks. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From shop at justbrits.com Tue Apr 6 18:43:50 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure In-Reply-To: <0L0G008O9S0EOQ70@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4340@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <0L0G008O9S0EOQ70@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4BBBD546.9010404@justbrits.com> << I wasn't using what I consider to be unreasonable pressure. >> UNDER ten [10] PSI, Steve ??? EVERY time, I REPEAT EVERY time, I sell & ship an eeZiBleed I state in the eMail AND on my Invoice to NEVER use more than that. IIRC, their Directions say 14 psi. Wonder how long it's gonna take you to get the AIR out of the system -:) ?!? Or "just another reason I HATE sillycon fluid" -:) !! Ed From strovato at optonline.net Tue Apr 6 20:16:07 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:16:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure In-Reply-To: <4BBBD546.9010404@justbrits.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100328122510.00bcbb18@mail.avvanta.com> <2400a5d41003301654h432a192cg640589fb54ca47c@mail.gmail.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E3FF9@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4340@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <0L0G008O9S0EOQ70@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4BBBD546.9010404@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <0L0H00L0XIBKRHD0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> OK, so I confess it was more than 10 psi. The article John Blair posted said 15 to 20. Most others said 15. Believe me, if I ever get up the nerve to try this again, I won't be going over 10! Don't know why you think there should be a problem getting air out of the system. I replaced the rear brake hose, that's all. Probably got all the air out of that just by doing one rear wheel. Still, seemed like a good opportunity to flush and replace all the fluid. This little "accident" did not introduce any air into the system. It just pumped a whole lot of fluid into the master cylinder, through the gasket and onto the floor. Not sure why you're saying you hate silicone brake fluid. I'm not a big fan myself, but that was what was in this car when I bought it. -Steve At 08:43 PM 4/6/2010, Shop at \" Just Brits \" wrote: ><< I wasn't using what I consider to be unreasonable pressure. >> > >UNDER ten [10] PSI, Steve ??? > >EVERY time, I REPEAT EVERY time, I sell & ship an >eeZiBleed I state in the eMail AND on my Invoice to >NEVER use more than that. IIRC, their Directions >say 14 psi. > >Wonder how long it's gonna take you to get the AIR >out of the system -:) ?!? > >Or "just another reason I HATE sillycon fluid" -:) !! From strovato at optonline.net Tue Apr 6 20:21:49 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:21:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure Message-ID: <0L0H008V4IKC4Q20@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> BTW, just checked this article: http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/campingart/jettatech/bleeder/index.htm and it says the following: "Most cars are bled at about 20-30 PSI. Some are as low as 10. See what works good for you. Don't EVER push more then say... 50 PSI... you'll rupture the master cylinder." I guess that means you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Bummer. -Steve From pethier at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 20:42:21 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 02:42:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure In-Reply-To: <4BBBD546.9010404@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <1078233140.10919691270608141583.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> 2 or 3 PSI will do the job. Seriously. I use very low pressure. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham Super Seven 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com ----- "Shop at \" Just Brits \"" wrote: > From: "Shop at \" Just Brits \"" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2010 7:43:50 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure > > << I wasn't using what I consider to be unreasonable pressure. >> > > UNDER ten [10] PSI, Steve ??? > > EVERY time, I REPEAT EVERY time, I sell & ship an > eeZiBleed I state in the eMail AND on my Invoice to > NEVER use more than that. IIRC, their Directions > say 14 psi. > > Wonder how long it's gonna take you to get the AIR > out of the system -:) ?!? > > Or "just another reason I HATE sillycon fluid" -:) !! > > Ed > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pethier at comcast.net From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Apr 7 10:43:18 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 11:43:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure In-Reply-To: <1078233140.10919691270608141583.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4BBBD546.9010404@justbrits.com> <1078233140.10919691270608141583.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4A5C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Phil wrote: > 2 or 3 PSI will do the job. Seriously. I use very low pressure. Yep. I usually use around 10 PSI with my EZ-Bleed - just enough pressure to push the fluid into the master and get things flowing. I also use either a direct connect "adapter" to my air compressor hose that I made (using a tire valve with 1/8 inch pipe thread on the other end), or more simply, my portable air tank - I fill it to 10 PSI with the compressor, then clip the tire valve connector of the EZ-Bleed to the air tank. One thing to always make sure that you do, is to connect the cap and pressurize the system WITHOUT any brake fluid in the bleeder. That way, if you have a leak, you just hear air hissing (instead of fluid spraying) and can fix things. Then, after you get a good seal, you can open up the tank of the bleeder and add brake fluid. And in response to the DIY bicycle tube bleeder - I've know people that have done that for many years. It works well. It's amazing what a bit of inginui9ty can accomplish. But I like the simple "clean" (and inexpensive) EZ-Bleeder for one man brake bleeding. Tim Mullen From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Apr 7 11:29:39 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Bleeding: Another Twist Message-ID: <201561.57774.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I just noticed this in the Gunson catalog. Does anybody have any experience with it or a similar product? Maybe you could make a simple probe for use with a ohmmeter to do the same thing? Doug BRAKE FLUID TESTER Brake Fluid is a hydroscopic fluid that absorbs moisture through brake hoses etc reducing the boiling point of brake fluid and causing deterioration. Regular checks on the brake fluid will ensure the brakes function correctly and safely. How it works? A simple tool for testing the percentage of water in brake fluid is the Brake Fluid tester. Simply immerse the probe end of the tester into the brake fluid and read the results. Green indicates <1.5% water OK Yellow indicates 1.5<3% water MARGINAL Red indicates 3% < water FAIL 21 77003 77002 ROHS From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Apr 7 12:26:56 2010 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:26:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Bleeding: Another Twist In-Reply-To: <201561.57774.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201561.57774.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79704133B66@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Doug Braun wrote: > > I just noticed this in the Gunson catalog. > Does anybody have any experience with it or a similar product? > > BRAKE FLUID TESTER Yep, I have one. It works just find. You just stick the tip into the brake fluid and it indicates how "good" it still is. No really necessary, because if you are worried about the condition of your brake fluid, you should probably just flush it out and put in new fluid. But I have checked and decided that the fluid was still good enough to leave for a later day... Tim Mullen From strovato at optonline.net Wed Apr 7 15:53:27 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:53:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake bleeding failure In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4A5C@XMBIL103.northgru m.com> References: <4BBBD546.9010404@justbrits.com> <1078233140.10919691270608141583.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797040E4A5C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <0L0J003A90V2H0X0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yes. But in my particular case, it passed that test. It was only on the second wheel that things took a turn for the worse. -Steve At 12:43 PM 4/7/2010, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote: >One thing to always make sure that you do, is to connect the cap and >pressurize the system WITHOUT any brake fluid in the bleeder. That way, >if you have a leak, you just hear air hissing (instead of fluid >spraying) and can fix things. From strovato at optonline.net Wed Apr 7 15:58:07 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Bleeding: Another Twist In-Reply-To: <201561.57774.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201561.57774.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0L0J008MB11QTOV0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have seen these from other manufacturers as well. One concern I have is that because brake fluid is not circulating like oil or coolant, are you really getting a valid answer by testing at the master cylinder? I would think that if the fluid was topped up, then the sample in the reservoir would be better than the rest. -Steve At 01:29 PM 4/7/2010, Doug Braun wrote: >A simple tool for testing the percentage of water in >brake fluid is the Brake Fluid tester. Simply immerse >the probe end of the tester into the brake fluid and >read the results. From shop at justbrits.com Wed Apr 7 16:20:55 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:20:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Brake Bleeding: Another Twist In-Reply-To: <201561.57774.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201561.57774.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BBD0547.1000501@justbrits.com> Hi Doug ! << I just noticed this in the Gunson catalog. Does anybody have any experience with it or a similar product? >> Although I have seen it I have resisted wasting my very hard earned dollars on it -:) !! Like Mr. Mullen...... because if you are worried about the condition of your brake fluid, you should probably just flush it out and put in new fluid. that IS my rule. ESPECIALLY with customers' cars !!! Unless I am told [& sworn to the "fact" -:)] fluid is LESS then six [6] months old it gets flushed/refilled. When one considers the dollars vs SAFETY it's a zero brainer -:) -:). And again, agreeing with Mr. Mullen...... But I like the simple "clean" (and inexpensive) EZ-Bleeder for one man brake bleeding. it makes the job on of the easiest I do !!!! Wish MORE "jobs" were as simple & QUICK !!! LOL Ed Please visit MY site at: www.justbrits.com PS: Finally got my "stuff" together and there ARE .........some Memorabilia & JH taillight For Sale on my .........site. From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Apr 8 09:13:18 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:13:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` Message-ID: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> I'm still trying to press in some steel sleeved bushings into tubular control arms for a front suspension I'm doing on my old truck. Having a devil of a time. I'm about to think that the bushings are just too large. Tried a 6 ton press and it just stalled... had some luck with a bolt/nut/impact but it easily destroys the bushing rubbers if it's not perfect... the control arm bore is mic'ing 1.250 +/- .002 the bushings are anywhere from 1.260 to 1.268. No two measure the same. It's a steel sleeve with rubber core over a inner steel sleeve that the suspension bolt slides through. I'm wondering what a 'friction' fit tolerance should be ??? I'm no millwright or machinist and I know the application/metal type/use makes a difference but are there some general guidelines that would apply... everything I find on the net is in engineerspeak and symbols and alchemy/sorcery stuff... what would be considered an exceptable friction fit for suspension bushings... .001 to . 003 ?? .015 >?? I haven't got a clue.. help me oh gurus of the metal melding !!!!! I've already had to cut out two bushings that hung up on me... there has got to be a better way... I'm just not smart enough to know it.. and yes everything is slippery as owl snot before I start trying to press them in... tia John It is not only what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we are accountable. Jean Baptiste Moliere From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Apr 8 10:11:20 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:11:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Will it help to freeze the bushings before inserting them? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:13 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` > I'm still trying to press in some steel sleeved bushings into tubular > control > arms for a front suspension I'm doing on my old truck. Having a devil of > a > time. I'm about to think that the bushings are just too large. Tried a > 6 > ton press and it just stalled... had some luck with a bolt/nut/impact but > it > easily destroys the bushing rubbers if it's not perfect... > > the control arm bore is mic'ing 1.250 +/- .002 the bushings are anywhere > from 1.260 to 1.268. No two measure the same. It's a steel sleeve with > rubber core over a inner steel sleeve that the suspension bolt slides > through. > > I'm wondering what a 'friction' fit tolerance should be ??? I'm no > millwright > or machinist and I know the application/metal type/use makes a difference > but > are there some general guidelines that would apply... everything I find > on > the net is in engineerspeak and symbols and alchemy/sorcery stuff... > > what would be considered an exceptable friction fit for suspension > bushings... > .001 to . 003 ?? .015 >?? I haven't got a clue.. help me oh gurus of > the > metal melding !!!!! > > I've already had to cut out two bushings that hung up on me... there has > got > to be a better way... I'm just not smart enough to know it.. and yes > everything is slippery as owl snot before I start trying to press them > in... > > tia > John From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Apr 8 13:48:17 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <391768.43683.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sounds like the classic problem of poorly-made repro parts. In my experience, aftermarket or repro parts are NEVER as well-made as OEM parts. Doug --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Eric J Russell wrote: > From: Eric J Russell > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` > To: "john niolon" , "shop-talk" > Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 12:11 PM > Will it help to freeze the bushings > before inserting them? > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" > To: "shop-talk" > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:13 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction > fit ???`` From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Apr 8 15:29:01 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:29:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4BBE4A9D.5020208@xxiii.com> On 4/8/2010 11:13 AM, john niolon wrote: > I'm still trying to press in some steel sleeved bushings into tubular control > arms for a front suspension I'm doing on my old truck. Having a devil of a > ... the control arm bore is mic'ing 1.250 +/- .002 the bushings are anywhere > from 1.260 to 1.268. No two measure the same. It's a steel sleeve with > rubber core over a inner steel sleeve that the suspension bolt slides That sounds awfully tight, even assuming the parts are perfectly round, or able to deform to round. A chamfered edges help a lot too. But I'm not a machinist or engineer. I did google "interference fit tolerance" and found this one near the top of the list: http://www.engineersedge.com/class_v.htm -Wayne From shop at justbrits.com Thu Apr 8 16:28:13 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:28:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4BBE587D.7010304@justbrits.com> Eric, BINGO -:) !!! << Will it help to freeze the bushings before inserting them? >> From the Spridgets Archives at autox.net are the tips for DYI Ring Gear to Flywheel install which should be the same: Yes, freeze the flywheel overnight. Pre heat oven to Broil (600* is what is called for but I think most home ovens only go to 550*) Have a large cookie pan set up on a piece of wood on the counter top. (The wood is a safty catch just in case) Heat the ring gear for 30 minutes, Now very quickly place the flywheel on the cokkie sheet and then drop the gear over it. Some slight tapping with a small hammer may be needed. Be sure the gear goes on the correct way. The reason for the cookie sheet and plywood is because you have to do this in under a minute so taking the parts from the kitchen to the workbench may ruin your timing. At least this is how I did it. YMMV, FYI, FWIW, NFI, NO guarantee, yada, yada, etc.?? -:)-:) Ed From strovato at optonline.net Thu Apr 8 17:02:53 2010 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 19:02:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <0L0K00M9KYOJ5EO0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> John, I'm all for doing things yourself, but perhaps you want to bring it to a machine shop. Whenever I've had things pressed in, it wasn't very expensive. They should have a bigger press and that may be all it takes. If that's not enough, they should be able to machine things to dimensions that will work. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Apr 8 17:35:12 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:35:12 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <227301cad774$230f1690$692d43b0$@rr.com> > the control arm bore is mic'ing 1.250 +/- .002 the bushings are > anywhere > from 1.260 to 1.268. That's WAY too big, John. Something is wrong, probably mis-made parts. If there is no expansion element (like a slit somewhere), then an interference fit should be only a few .001" per inch of diameter. One solution might be to mount the bushings up on a bolt or something that you can spin in a drill motor or press; then use a file to work the outer diameter down a bit. A better solution would be to return them to the vendor (if that's an option). -- Randall From kennedybc at comcast.net Thu Apr 8 17:36:23 2010 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:36:23 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: <4BBE4A9D.5020208@xxiii.com> References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> <4BBE4A9D.5020208@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Years ago, I recall dunking things in liquid Nitrogen, 77K, to do what you're trying to do. That's about 230K below room temperature. If my arithmetic is right, a 1" diameter will shrink a couple of mils. Up to 20 mils over, looks way to tight. There might be a reamer in your future. Brian K. On Apr 8, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Wayne wrote: > On 4/8/2010 11:13 AM, john niolon wrote: >> I'm still trying to press in some steel sleeved bushings into tubular control >> arms for a front suspension I'm doing on my old truck. Having a devil of a >> ... the control arm bore is mic'ing 1.250 +/- .002 the bushings are anywhere >> from 1.260 to 1.268. No two measure the same. It's a steel sleeve with >> rubber core over a inner steel sleeve that the suspension bolt slides > > That sounds awfully tight, even assuming the parts are perfectly round, or able to deform to round. A chamfered edges help a lot too. But I'm not a machinist or engineer. I did google "interference fit tolerance" and found this one near the top of the list: http://www.engineersedge.com/class_v.htm > > -Wayne > _ From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Apr 8 18:08:30 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:08:30 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: <4BBE587D.7010304@justbrits.com> References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> <4BBE587D.7010304@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <229701cad778$c97a8e20$5c6faa60$@rr.com> > << Will it help to freeze the bushings before inserting them? >> Not gonna help, at least not enough, IMO. Coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is only .0000073 inch per inch per degree F. So assuming you can get a 600F differential in temperature (ie arms heated to 600F, bushing cooled to 0F), that's still only about a .005" improvement (.0000073 * 1.25 * 600). That still leaves .005" to .013" difference in diameters, which is still way too much. -- Randall From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Apr 8 19:41:32 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 20:41:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] more on tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> <227301cad774$230f1690$692d43b0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <46DE5B188AF145D6BB734CC192248CBD@john5043a2d406> some details I didn't include the control arms are powder coated and I don't want to destroy that finish... so no oven or heating... I've already started the chucking/filing on one and think this is the best solution.... I tried cooling the bushing for a few days but this made the rubber hard and brittle and it chipped off at the edges... once I get the outer sleeve down to 5 thousands or so... I'm going to use a brake hone and relieve the bore of the control arm a few to kinda split the difference on the removal of material... I think I've got some mismade parts or poorly toleranced parts for the application although my vendor swears it's the same bushings they've always used and he has no problem or complaints from them.. I'll keep working till I get it... hard headed... but I just wasn't sure how close I needed to get... I'm shooting for .002 or so and go from there.... don't you just love custom car projects... the fun just never ends... thanks for all the input and advise... forge on !!!! john >> the control arm bore is mic'ing 1.250 +/- .002 the bushings are >> anywhere >> from 1.260 to 1.268. > > That's WAY too big, John. Something is wrong, probably mis-made parts. > If > there is no expansion element (like a slit somewhere), then an > interference > fit should be only a few .001" per inch of diameter. > > One solution might be to mount the bushings up on a bolt or something that > you can spin in a drill motor or press; then use a file to work the outer > diameter down a bit. > > A better solution would be to return them to the vendor (if that's an > option). > > -- Randall > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at bham.rr.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Apr 8 20:59:42 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (John Niolon) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:59:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] more on tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC><227301cad774$230f1690$692d43b0$@rr.com> <46DE5B188AF145D6BB734CC192248CBD@john5043a2d406> <65E79C88CF6147F297A386D44EEAA824@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: nope.... all that has been honed away... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J Russell" To: "John Niolon" Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] more on tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` > Is there powder coating on the ID where the bush needs to fit? I would > assume there shouldn't be... > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > ----- Original Message ----- > >> the control arms are powder coated and I don't want to destroy that >> finish... so no oven or heating... From shop at justbrits.com Thu Apr 8 20:22:02 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:22:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] more on tolerancing a interference or friction fit ???`` In-Reply-To: <46DE5B188AF145D6BB734CC192248CBD@john5043a2d406> References: <70B7DF09DA3843598552CC36CC0E5D7C@OwnerPC> <227301cad774$230f1690$692d43b0$@rr.com> <46DE5B188AF145D6BB734CC192248CBD@john5043a2d406> Message-ID: <4BBE8F4A.4070608@justbrits.com> Sorry, John GOTTA dis-agree....... << ...think this is the best solution.... >> guess I am just old-fashioned but SAFETY items like "steering" = "A man has got to know his limitations.". I AM with Steve; machinest would be best bet. Ed From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sun Apr 11 14:21:38 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 16:21:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? Message-ID: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> How do they do that? OK, here is a good one for the list to chew on... I have a 09 Nissan Murano. It has a lot of computerized information in its displays. The two of interest for this challenge are "Distance to Empty" and "Average MPG". I have always used 87 octane fuel. I was on a long trip recently and I stopped at a gas station that had a good price. I was disappointed when I got to the pump and found that they had 10% ethanol in all three grades. I have always tried to avoid fuel with ethanol added because ethanol has less BTUs and I figure it would reduce my mileage. Since I didn't feel like wasting my time to drive to another station, I decided to buy the mid-grade since it was still less than what I was accustomed to paying for 87. I figured the mid-grade might offset the ethanol mileage loss. When I got back in the car the first thing that I noticed was that my "DTE" was 428 miles..on 87 it is typically less than 410. This was the first thing to surprise me..how did it sense that I put in a different octane fuel and make an adjustment to the "DTE"? So, when I got back on the expressway. I reset my MPG display. (I typically get about 21.9 MPG at expressway speeds, 75-79) I drove nearly 400 miles before refueling. My MPG was 23.5. At this stop I decided to push the envelope further. I purchased the premium, 93 octane. This time when I turned on the engine the DTE showed 468! Again, how is it able to immediately sense what fuel I put in? After this, I drove for 331 miles and averaged 25.8 MPG. I must say I was surprised at my results. I haven't yet taken the time to do a cost / benefit analysis to determine the cost break points. On a Honda I owned some time ago I did determine that if the mid-grade was no more than 6 cents more it paid me to use it. However, using Premium was not cost effective. I just did a quick cost / benefit. In my area, mid-grade is 5 cents higher than Regular and Premium is 7 cents higher than mid-grade. Based on that, for 500 miles mid grade would save me $3.19 over Regular and Premium would save me $7.15 over regular. Guess I might have to change to Premium..I think I'll do a check on mostly city miles and see if it holds up. So listers, how does the car's computer system immediately recognize that I have just dumped in a load of higher octane gas? From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Apr 11 15:09:49 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 17:09:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> References: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> Message-ID: <0F19EF95CB9E41B787224310E5D33CDB@EricJRussellPC> My guess - it didn't. But it did know that you were getting slightly higher (than your previous average) mpg during the highway cruising. It re-calculated your new DTE based on the full tank & recent mpg. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > I have always used 87 octane fuel. I was on a long trip recently and I > stopped at a gas station that had a good price. > how did it sense that I put in a different octane fuel and > make an adjustment to the "DTE"? > > So, when I got back on the expressway. I reset my MPG display. (I > typically > get about 21.9 MPG at expressway speeds, 75-79) I drove nearly 400 miles > before refueling. My MPG was 23.5. At this stop I decided to push the > envelope further. I purchased the premium, 93 octane. This time when I > turned on the engine the DTE showed 468! Again, how is it able to > immediately sense what fuel I put in? After this, I drove for 331 miles > and > averaged 25.8 MPG. From ericm at lne.com Sun Apr 11 15:18:15 2010 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:18:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> References: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> Message-ID: <20100411211815.GA29100@slack> On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 04:21:38PM -0400, Gerald Brazil wrote: > So listers, how does the car's computer system immediately recognize that I > have just dumped in a load of higher octane gas? If that is what is happening, it could be because the ECU isn't having to pull timing advance to prevent knock. There is usually less BTUs in higher octane pump gas, but the tuning of a particular engine can make more difference. On your engine and car, high octane apparently improves mileage significantly. OTOH, the car is guessing that you filled up the tank. It can't measure the input to the tank, only the outflow. So it is possible that it is underestimating the amount of fuel you put in. Eric From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Apr 11 15:49:53 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:49:53 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> References: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> Message-ID: <103c01cad9c0$ebc42910$0301a8c0@randall> > So listers, how does the car's computer system immediately > recognize that I > have just dumped in a load of higher octane gas? You're basically driving a mobile fuel laboratory! With a knock sensor, the ECU advances the spark until it gets knock (and backs off just a bit); which gives it a pretty good estimate of octane. And since it also has to adjust the mixture until the O2 sensor reports that it's perfect, it's got a good estimate of how much energy per gallon is in the fuel. Randall From jibjib at att.net Sun Apr 11 15:52:43 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:52:43 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <20100411211815.GA29100@slack> References: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> <20100411211815.GA29100@slack> Message-ID: >OTOH, the car is guessing that you filled up the tank. It can't measure >the input to the tank, only the outflow. So it is possible that it is >underestimating the amount of fuel you put in. No, it can't measure inflow directly, but it can measure fuel level, so it knows how much was added. Jack From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 16:07:07 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 18:07:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <20100411211815.GA29100@slack> References: <8382ED547C49426DA8D9815E0534A2E3@Digilink1> <20100411211815.GA29100@slack> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Eric Murray wrote: > > > OTOH, the car is guessing that you filled up the tank. It can't measure > the input to the tank, only the outflow. So it is possible that it is > underestimating the amount of fuel you put in. > > Really? Most cars I've owned have had a float in the gas tank, that told the driver how much gas was in the tank. No reason the computer can't use that information. Resolution is probably not good enough to tell the differnce between adding 10.2 and 10.3 gallons, but they can be pretty good. And some EVAP systems can tell what the volume of air in the fuel tank is; fuel volume is calculated by subtraction. (I don't know if any car actually uses this information, but it's a derivable quantity in some advanced EVAP systems. ) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sun Apr 11 17:20:30 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <0F19EF95CB9E41B787224310E5D33CDB@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: No. It gave me that higher DTE reading before I had even put it in gear...... -----Original Message----- From: Eric J Russell [mailto:ejrussell at mebtel.net] Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:10 PM To: Gerald Brazil; shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? My guess - it didn't. But it did know that you were getting slightly higher (than your previous average) mpg during the highway cruising. It re-calculated your new DTE based on the full tank & recent mpg. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > I have always used 87 octane fuel. I was on a long trip recently and I > stopped at a gas station that had a good price. > how did it sense that I put in a different octane fuel and > make an adjustment to the "DTE"? > > So, when I got back on the expressway. I reset my MPG display. (I > typically > get about 21.9 MPG at expressway speeds, 75-79) I drove nearly 400 miles > before refueling. My MPG was 23.5. At this stop I decided to push the > envelope further. I purchased the premium, 93 octane. This time when I > turned on the engine the DTE showed 468! Again, how is it able to > immediately sense what fuel I put in? After this, I drove for 331 miles > and > averaged 25.8 MPG. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Apr 11 17:27:16 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:27:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71E9C1BAF53542EFAD7A5529BAB8B62A@EricJRussellPC> Right. It used the immediate prior mpg's and amount of fuel added (or knowing the tank was now full) to recalculate a new DTE. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'Eric J Russell'" ; "'shop-talk'" Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 7:20 PM Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? > No. It gave me that higher DTE reading before I had even put it in > gear...... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric J Russell [mailto:ejrussell at mebtel.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:10 PM > To: Gerald Brazil; shop-talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? > > My guess - it didn't. > > But it did know that you were getting slightly higher (than your previous > average) mpg during the highway cruising. It re-calculated your new DTE > based on the full tank & recent mpg. > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > ----- Original Message ----- > >> I have always used 87 octane fuel. I was on a long trip recently and I >> stopped at a gas station that had a good price. > >> how did it sense that I put in a different octane fuel and >> make an adjustment to the "DTE"? >> >> So, when I got back on the expressway. I reset my MPG display. (I >> typically >> get about 21.9 MPG at expressway speeds, 75-79) I drove nearly 400 miles >> before refueling. My MPG was 23.5. At this stop I decided to push the >> envelope further. I purchased the premium, 93 octane. This time when I >> turned on the engine the DTE showed 468! Again, how is it able to >> immediately sense what fuel I put in? After this, I drove for 331 miles >> and >> averaged 25.8 MPG. From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sun Apr 11 17:38:52 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:38:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <103c01cad9c0$ebc42910$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <9B02E7F9A8A448B6816D1A2DABC128F2@Digilink1> Makes sense to me! Amazing what technology in lurking in there.....we hope it is for good..... It does make you think that with this much involvement with computers we may all be vulnerable to problems like Toyota has run into....do you suppose they buy their software from Microsoft? :-) -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:50 PM To: 'shop-talk' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? > So listers, how does the car's computer system immediately > recognize that I > have just dumped in a load of higher octane gas? You're basically driving a mobile fuel laboratory! With a knock sensor, the ECU advances the spark until it gets knock (and backs off just a bit); which gives it a pretty good estimate of octane. And since it also has to adjust the mixture until the O2 sensor reports that it's perfect, it's got a good estimate of how much energy per gallon is in the fuel. Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Sun Apr 11 17:41:10 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:41:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5474ACE4F1404AA78260EC62B61FD353@Digilink1> I buy Randall's idea that it has a way to test the fuel octane as soon as you start the engine because it was giving me an increased DTE reading before I ever put it in gear.... -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack Brooks Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:53 PM To: 'shop-talk' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? >OTOH, the car is guessing that you filled up the tank. It can't measure >the input to the tank, only the outflow. So it is possible that it is >underestimating the amount of fuel you put in. No, it can't measure inflow directly, but it can measure fuel level, so it knows how much was added. Jack _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Apr 11 18:20:44 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 17:20:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <9B02E7F9A8A448B6816D1A2DABC128F2@Digilink1> References: <103c01cad9c0$ebc42910$0301a8c0@randall> <9B02E7F9A8A448B6816D1A2DABC128F2@Digilink1> Message-ID: <105c01cad9d5$fe5bf020$0301a8c0@randall> > It does make you think that with this much involvement with > computers we may > all be vulnerable to problems like Toyota has run into.... Without meaning to comment on the quality of anyone's software; I will say that in the world of embedded real-time processing (like an ECU); it is scary easy to create a bug that will only show up under the arcane of coincidences. The huge number of identical systems only adds to the problem; if you have a bug that on average only affects any particular unit once in a hundred years; but you've sold 20 million units, then 20,000 people a year are going to experience that bug. Can you imagine how hard it is to find and fix a bug that only happens once in a hundred years? And no, I'm not exaggerating. I was totally amazed at the story of the fellow that drove onto a Toyota dealer's lot with the engine racing. The dealer saw first-hand that the physical pedal was not "stuck"; and yet they replaced a bunch of stuff and let him drive away! They should have kept that car, in it's failed state, and flown in a technician to at least try and figure out what had happened. Was the ECU processor even still running? We'll never know ... Sorry I can't share any similar stories from work, but trust me, they do happen. Sometimes we never do learn why, exactly, only that some change (like maybe shutting the engine down when the brakes are applied hard) makes them not happen. Randall From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 11 18:21:16 2010 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 20:21:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCIs difficult to plug into? Message-ID: I've noticed a trend lately with the GFCIs that I've bought for outdoor applications, I'm assuming they were outdoor rated on the box as I would've only bought them if they were marked as such. They are getting more difficult to plug into... I've had about 3 (of the 4) outside GFCI receptacles around my house get harder to plug into over the last couple years. The most recent was today, and I had to hit it with my hand to get it to insert. I can't imagine this level of effort would be good for the receptacle or the extension cord I was using, so why would this be by design? There seems to be some mention on the internet that some manufacturers make them tight intentionally, and that tighter might mean better... lol... yes, the only safe GFCI is one you can't even plug into... I've had none of these issues with many of the indoor GFCIs that I use on a daily basis. I've bought all of the GFCIs I have from Home Depot and I'm tempted to return them as faulty, though I don't know what their return policy is on used electrical stuff... Has anyone had similar experiences, or had *good luck* with a particular brand that _hasn't_ given them trouble? PJ _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From jibjib at att.net Sun Apr 11 22:46:29 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 21:46:29 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCIs difficult to plug into? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Add a small wipe of Vaseline on the prongs of the plug and insert/remove it a few times. It'll be easy to use afterwards. I seem to recall that IBM pioneered the use of Vaseline on 120V electrical plugs, but I'm not quite sure any more. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of PJ McGarvey Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:21 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCIs difficult to plug into? I've noticed a trend lately with the GFCIs that I've bought for outdoor applications, I'm assuming they were outdoor rated on the box as I would've only bought them if they were marked as such. They are getting more difficult to plug into... I've had about 3 (of the 4) outside GFCI receptacles around my house get harder to plug into over the last couple years. The most recent was today, and I had to hit it with my hand to get it to insert. I can't imagine this level of effort would be good for the receptacle or the extension cord I was using, so why would this be by design? There seems to be some mention on the internet that some manufacturers make them tight intentionally, and that tighter might mean better... lol... yes, the only safe GFCI is one you can't even plug into... I've had none of these issues with many of the indoor GFCIs that I use on a daily basis. I've bought all of the GFCIs I have from Home Depot and I'm tempted to return them as faulty, though I don't know what their return policy is on used electrical stuff... Has anyone had similar experiences, or had *good luck* with a particular brand that _hasn't_ given them trouble? PJ _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W L :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From pj_thomas at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 20:14:52 2010 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:14:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <105c01cad9d5$fe5bf020$0301a8c0@randall> References: <103c01cad9c0$ebc42910$0301a8c0@randall> <9B02E7F9A8A448B6816D1A2DABC128F2@Digilink1> <105c01cad9d5$fe5bf020$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4BC6769C.6020406@comcast.net> On 4/11/2010 8:20 PM, Randall wrote: > > I was totally amazed at the story of the fellow that drove onto a Toyota > dealer's lot with the engine racing. The dealer saw first-hand that the > physical pedal was not "stuck"; and yet they replaced a bunch of stuff and > let him drive away! They should have kept that car, in it's failed state, > and flown in a technician to at least try and figure out what had happened. > Was the ECU processor even still running? We'll never know ... > I had a friend who had a new car. One morning it would not start. Called the dealership and the dealership had it towed to the shop. The mechanics could not find any fault and gave the car back to the owner. Next morning same thing, no starty. Another tow and another "nothing's wrong". Next morning, again no starty. This time he called owner of the dealership, I believe at home. The owner, service manager and a mechanic came to the car and saw first hand it would not start. Turns out dust from the clutch was landing on an optical sensor that detects rotation in the flywheel. The computer would not turn on the gas pump until it detected the flywheel was turning. Towing the car to the dealship on bumpy rural roads shook the dust off of the sensor. From richard at kleihorst.com Fri Apr 16 01:39:00 2010 From: richard at kleihorst.com (Richard Kleihorst) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers Message-ID: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to use. Usually kerosine, diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have some health considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. Especially the aromats, benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe to breathe. Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, such as liquid soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it might take 4 runs to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to make sure that the SO doesn't catch you. Richard From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Fri Apr 16 05:15:13 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:15:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you want something that is readily available, try Simple Green . -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard Kleihorst Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 3:39 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers Hi, I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to use. Usually kerosine, diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have some health considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. Especially the aromats, benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe to breathe. Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, such as liquid soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it might take 4 runs to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to make sure that the SO doesn't catch you. Richard _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Apr 16 06:35:30 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 05:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <451357.55432.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you have ferrous parts and you don't care about any paint on them, nothing beats Easy-Off extra-strong original formula oven cleaner, in the yellow spray can! The chassis and drivetrain of my '31 Ford was coated with a 75-year accumulation of dust, dirt, oil, and grease that had hardened into a form of armor plate. I would leave parts soaking in a parts cleaner full of Gunk and kerosene for WEEKS, and it would have NO effect. They I tried spraying on the Easy-Off, and after a few hours, the crud simply rinsed off. The only downside is that it will dissolve paint (and aluminum) for sure. Doug --- On Fri, 4/16/10, Richard Kleihorst wrote: > From: Richard Kleihorst > Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 3:39 AM > Hi, > > I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to > use. Usually kerosine, > diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have > some health > considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. > Especially the aromats, > benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe > to breathe. > > Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, > such as liquid > soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? > I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it > might take 4 runs > to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to > make sure that the SO > doesn't catch you. From richard at kleihorst.com Fri Apr 16 07:43:18 2010 From: richard at kleihorst.com (Richard Kleihorst) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <451357.55432.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <754667.9154.qm@web112411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> So oven cleaner is probably some strong acid. Sulphuric acid maybe? To remove paint and rust I use an electrolytic bath, with cleaning soda, a stainless steel anode and a battery charger. Works effortless. Richard --- On Fri, 4/16/10, Doug Braun wrote: From: Doug Braun Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers To: richard at kleihorst.com Cc: "Shop-Talk List" Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 2:35 PM If you have ferrous parts and you don't care about any paint on them, nothing beats Easy-Off extra-strong original formula oven cleaner, in the yellow spray can! The chassis and drivetrain of my '31 Ford was coated with a 75-year accumulation of dust, dirt, oil, and grease that had hardened into a form of armor plate. I would leave parts soaking in a parts cleaner full of Gunk and kerosene for WEEKS, and it would have NO effect. They I tried spraying on the Easy-Off, and after a few hours, the crud simply rinsed off. The only downside is that it will dissolve paint (and aluminum) for sure. Doug --- On Fri, 4/16/10, Richard Kleihorst wrote: > From: Richard Kleihorst > Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 3:39 AM > Hi, > > I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to > use. Usually kerosine, > diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have > some health > considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. > Especially the aromats, > benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe > to breathe. > > Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, > such as liquid > soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? > I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it > might take 4 runs > to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to > make sure that the SO > doesn't catch you. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 08:00:56 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:00:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 3:39 AM, Richard Kleihorst wrote: > Hi, > > I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to use. Usually > kerosine, > diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have some health > considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. Especially the > aromats, > benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe to breathe. > > Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, such as liquid > soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? > I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it might take 4 > runs > to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to make sure that the > SO > doesn't catch you. > > There are number of aqueous products sold as a drop in replacement fro petroleum based ones. I've used a couple (I don't actually know what the products were, I just used the parts washer. One was a safety-kleen supplied setupk, thoug.) They worked okay; heating them tends to improve performance. Different solutions work better in different styles of parts washers. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From richard at kleihorst.com Fri Apr 16 08:09:00 2010 From: richard at kleihorst.com (Richard Kleihorst) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <528316.17125.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Simple green was the first thing I tried, but I made a huge mistake by adding a lot of vinegar in the solution (a woman on the radio suggested this mix for houscleaning). Now, soap and acid together makes a fat greasy solution, so I end up having to clean the parts cleaner with solvent because everything is clogged. I never had the chance to check out simple green on its own though, does it work effectively? Richard --- On Fri, 4/16/10, Gerald Brazil wrote: From: Gerald Brazil Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers To: richard at kleihorst.com, shop-talk at autox.team.net Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 1:15 PM If you want something that is readily available, try Simple Green . -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard Kleihorst Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 3:39 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers Hi, I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to use. Usually kerosine, diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have some health considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. Especially the aromats, benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe to breathe. Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, such as liquid soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it might take 4 runs to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to make sure that the SO doesn't catch you. Richard _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/gerrybraz at cablespeed.com From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Apr 16 08:09:08 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <754667.9154.qm@web112411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <856385.30395.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The over cleaner is basically lye, with something to make it more viscous, I guess. I have tried electrolytic rust removal on a couple of small parts, but it did not work so well for me, and I could have bead-blasted the parts in much less time. Doug --- On Fri, 4/16/10, Richard Kleihorst wrote: From: Richard Kleihorst Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers To: "Doug Braun" Cc: "Shop-Talk List" Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 9:43 AM So oven cleaner is probably some strong acid. Sulphuric acid maybe? To remove paint and rust I use an electrolytic bath, with cleaning soda, a stainless steel anode and a battery charger. Works effortless. Richard From rbeels at yahoo.com Thu Apr 15 20:40:35 2010 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:40:35 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <4BC6769C.6020406@comcast.net> References: <103c01cad9c0$ebc42910$0301a8c0@randall> <9B02E7F9A8A448B6816D1A2DABC128F2@Digilink1> <105c01cad9d5$fe5bf020$0301a8c0@randall> <4BC6769C.6020406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20100415223703.059a06d8@yahoo.com> I've had a couple instances like that with my outback. the outback's trans has some really hard shocks during upshifts. twice from the dealer: no fault found. i took a movie with the digcam to document it and emailed them to the service manager. now they get it.... At 04-14-2010 at 22:14, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Peter J. Thomas's keyboard and said: >> >I had a friend who had a new car. One morning it would not start. >Called the dealership and the dealership had it towed to the >shop. The mechanics could not find any fault and gave the car back >to the owner. >Next morning same thing, no starty. Another tow and another >"nothing's wrong". Next morning, again no starty. This time he >called owner of the dealership, I believe at home. The owner, >service manager and a mechanic came to the car and saw first hand it >would not start. Turns out dust from the clutch was landing on an >optical sensor that detects rotation in the flywheel. The computer >would not turn on the gas pump until it detected the flywheel was >turning. Towing the car to the dealship on bumpy rural roads shook >the dust off of the sensor. Cheers! From rbeels at yahoo.com Fri Apr 16 09:47:29 2010 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:47:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20100416114354.05a2c5f8@yahoo.com> Surprised no one's mentioned it yet. Agitene. They make a range of products, both solvent & water based. I have 2 washers, one setup with kero and one with Agitene. If you have a lung issue - ever thought of getting a respirator? At 04-16-2010 at 03:39, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Richard Kleihorst's keyboard and said: >Hi, > >I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to use. Usually kerosine, >diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have some health >considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. Especially the aromats, >benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe to breathe. > >Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, such as liquid >soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? >I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it might take 4 runs >to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to make sure that the SO >doesn't catch you. > >Richard Cheers! From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Fri Apr 16 10:39:41 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:39:41 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <528316.17125.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, Simple Green is effective..the more concentrated the better..It is also safe for your hands...I'd be careful of mixing "home brew" concoctions. We had a cleaning lady once who ruined 3 toilets because she saw herself as an alchemist. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Apr 16 11:10:36 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:10:36 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <528316.17125.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <528316.17125.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501cadd87$bbaad920$0301a8c0@randall> > I never had the chance to check out simple green on its own > though, does it > work effectively? It didn't work so well for me; but I didn't load a parts washer up with it. Just used a spray bottle to saturate a greasy old TR gearbox, let it sit for a few hours, then hit it with a pressure washer. After several rounds of that, it was still greasy and dirty, so I switched to other methods. Never did get it really clean, but I only wanted clean enough to rebuild anyway. BTW, don't forget to consider the effects of the solvent on your parts washer. Mine was effectively ruined because the petroleum based solvent I used attacked the plastic in the pump. It's still sitting in the backyard, waiting for me to replace the pump. Randall From pethier at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 11:31:49 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:31:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <451357.55432.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15073027.14977241271439109561.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ----- "Doug Braun" wrote: > If you have ferrous parts and you don't care about any paint on them, > nothing beats Easy-Off extra-strong original formula oven cleaner, in > the yellow spray can! [...] > They I tried spraying on the Easy-Off, and after a few hours, the crud > simply rinsed off. The only downside is that it will dissolve paint > (and aluminum) for sure. Not for sure. A shop owner I know took some pinstipes off a customer's E-type Jaguar with Easy-Off (he was very specific about the brand name) Oven Cleaner. No damage to the underlying paint. Not saying that you should try this at home, just saying that it worked for him. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham Super Seven 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Apr 16 11:32:23 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:32:23 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <754667.9154.qm@web112411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <451357.55432.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <754667.9154.qm@web112411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008601cadd8a$c66e1950$0301a8c0@randall> > So oven cleaner is probably some strong acid. Sulphuric acid maybe? As mentioned, the active ingredient is lye (aka caustic soda, aka sodium hydroxide). But it's only 5-10% of the product. Note that it will attack and discolor aluminum; although the damage isn't too severe if you flush it off promptly. Make sure it can't get trapped in cracks or under rivets, etc. though, as it will eventually turn aluminum to powder. The "Red Devil" pure lye sold in grocery stores is no longer made, but supposedly Lowe's carries a product called "Roebic Crystal drain opener" that is pure lye. Should do a real number on grease, as lye will combine with fatty substances to form soap. But it's also good at removing paint and skin. Randall From pethier at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 12:01:07 2010 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:01:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <807338054.14990771271440867663.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ---- "Gerald Brazil" wrote: > Yes, Simple Green is effective..the more concentrated the better..It > is also > safe for your hands... No personal experience, but I have been told you can wreck aluminum parts with Simple Green. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham Super Seven 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com From tputland at charter.net Fri Apr 16 12:36:55 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:36:55 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] air line dryers Message-ID: <20100416143655.1JOWY.2348279.root@mp05> I am looking for recommendations for affordable line dryers. I am been using a wire brush on my die grinder to strip old under coating from my Roadster. The compressor has been running so much I am blowing water out of my die grinder now. Thanks Tim From bspidell at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 14:04:32 2010 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 20:04:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] air line dryers In-Reply-To: <20100416143655.1JOWY.2348279.root@mp05> Message-ID: <558212030.8389961271448272796.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> This one's decent: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40312 Their others are crap (IMO only, of course). bs -------------------------------- Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA I am looking for recommendations for affordable line dryers. I am been using a wire brush on my die grinder to strip old under coating from my Roadster. The compressor has been running so much I am blowing water out of my die grinder now. Thanks Tim _______________________________________________ From mikey at b2systems.com Fri Apr 16 14:28:24 2010 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:28:24 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <008601cadd8a$c66e1950$0301a8c0@randall> References: <451357.55432.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <754667.9154.qm@web112411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <008601cadd8a$c66e1950$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <4BC8C868.7080301@b2systems.com> On 04/16/2010 10:32 AM, Randall wrote: > that is pure lye. Should do a real number on grease, as lye will combine > with fatty substances to form soap. But it's also good at removing paint > and skin. > > Randall > RIDICULOUSLY good at removing skin, especially when its heated to 180degrees, it only takes seconds. Mike (who has not liked lye or any product like it since Nov. 4, 1974 about 2:30 PST) From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Apr 16 15:07:54 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:07:54 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <807338054.14990771271440867663.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <807338054.14990771271440867663.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <078e01cadda8$e2c92e00$a85b8a00$@rr.com> > No personal experience, but I have been told you can wreck aluminum > parts with Simple Green. I believe the concern is real, but only under fairly extreme circumstances. The problem arises with fairly thin riveted sheet (like aircraft skin), where the SG can soak into tiny crevices between sheets or around rivets and get trapped. Over a long enough period of time (and likely thermal cycling, etc.) it can corrode the aluminum enough to weaken it. ISTR there was actually an aircraft skin failure traced to this, and so it's now forbidden to use any strongly basic degreaser (like SG) on aircraft. But it's not likely to be a problem with aluminum castings, and in fact it does not seem to have done any harm at all to my aluminum gearbox housing. I wouldn't use it on say, an MGA door (which has an aluminum skin over a steel frame), though. -- Randall From rs1121 at earthlink.net Fri Apr 16 15:27:22 2010 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:27:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <15073027.14977241271439109561.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <451357.55432.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <15073027.14977241271439109561.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <00a401caddab$9a8f2920$cfad7b60$@net> We use it on plastics all the time - you just have to make sure to clean it off - don't let it sit. Works great. Thanks Ron Schmittou Ron_S at agps.us Anna Office (972) 369-8640 Ext 210 Auto Fwd (469) 844-5482 Cell (214) 862-1871 -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of pethier at comcast.net Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 12:32 PM To: Doug Braun Cc: richard at kleihorst.com; Shop-Talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers ----- "Doug Braun" wrote: > If you have ferrous parts and you don't care about any paint on them, > nothing beats Easy-Off extra-strong original formula oven cleaner, in > the yellow spray can! [...] > They I tried spraying on the Easy-Off, and after a few hours, the crud > simply rinsed off. The only downside is that it will dissolve paint > (and aluminum) for sure. Not for sure. A shop owner I know took some pinstipes off a customer's E-type Jaguar with Easy-Off (he was very specific about the brand name) Oven Cleaner. No damage to the underlying paint. Not saying that you should try this at home, just saying that it worked for him. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UB "uncle jack" 1979 Caterham Super Seven 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier http://www.triumphtransamerica.org http://www.mnautox.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rs1121 at earthlink.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 16:41:56 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:41:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <078e01cadda8$e2c92e00$a85b8a00$@rr.com> References: <807338054.14990771271440867663.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <078e01cadda8$e2c92e00$a85b8a00$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Randall wrote: > > No personal experience, but I have been told you can wreck aluminum > > parts with Simple Green. > > I believe the concern is real, but only under fairly extreme circumstances. > The problem arises with fairly thin riveted sheet (like aircraft skin), > where the SG can soak into tiny crevices between sheets or around rivets > and > get trapped. Over a long enough period of time (and likely thermal > cycling, > etc.) it can corrode the aluminum enough to weaken it. ISTR there was > actually an aircraft skin failure traced to this, and so it's now forbidden > to use any strongly basic degreaser (like SG) on aircraft. > \ It's also probably dependent on alloy. High strength aluminum alloys tend to be more prone to crevice corrosion than the sorts that are used for castings. but htere are any number of less nasty degreasers available these days (usually with better pricing, too.). -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From cavanadd at verizon.net Fri Apr 16 20:16:00 2010 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 19:16:00 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BC919E0.40506@verizon.net> Deodorized or odorless mineral spirits have had most of the aromatics removed and might work for you. In addition to the Simple Green already mentioned there are a number of "purple cleaners" that are water based alkaline compounds with surfactants from Gunk, Zep, etc. As others mentioned, oven cleaner/lye/caustic soda/sodium hydroxide is a great degreaser but in higher concentrations is hazardous to your skin and eyes. That being said, I use cheap dollar store oven cleaner all the time to clean circular saw blades and to degrease automotive equipment like lawnmowers and tractors (and some motorcycles) where I'm not too particular about the paint. Works well on old pick up truck engines, too. One place to get lye is a commercial janitorial supply store. And for the record I use a mixture of Agitene and paint thinner in my Harbor Freight parts washer. Richard Kleihorst wrote: > Hi, > > I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to use. Usually kerosine, > diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have some health > considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. Especially the aromats, > benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe to breathe. > > Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, such as liquid > soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? > I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it might take 4 runs > to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to make sure that the SO > doesn't catch you. > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at verizon.net From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Apr 16 21:05:07 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 20:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <684961.90321.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> BTW, solvents containing methylene chloride (paint remover) can do nasty tings in the presence of aluminum: Aluminum, magnesium or their alloys are not recommended for constructing storage tanks to hold any chlorinated solvent. Aluminum parts should not be stacked overnight or for longer periods in a dip tank or when wet with methylene chloride because solvent decomposition may occur. This reaction can be particularly dangerous in enclosed systems of aluminum construction, generating heat, pressure and corrosive gases which may rupture the equipment with explosive-like force. Dilution of methylene chloride such as practiced in the adhesives, coatings and paint industries further increases the sensitivity of the solvent to aluminum. Therefore, aluminum equipment should not be used. Apparently, the aluminum itself is not corroded. I guess that's why MC-based stripper is sometimes called "aircraft stripper". Doug --- On Fri, 4/16/10, David Scheidt wrote: > From: David Scheidt > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers > To: "Randall" > Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 6:41 PM > On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:07 PM, > Randall > wrote: > > > > No personal experience, but I have been told you > can wreck aluminum > > > parts with Simple Green. > > > > I believe the concern is real, but only under fairly > extreme circumstances. > > The problem arises with fairly thin riveted sheet > (like aircraft skin), > > where the SG can soak into tiny crevices between > sheets or around rivets > > and > > get trapped. Over a long enough period of time > (and likely thermal > > cycling, > > etc.) it can corrode the aluminum enough to weaken > it. ISTR there was > > actually an aircraft skin failure traced to this, and > so it's now forbidden > > to use any strongly basic degreaser (like SG) on > aircraft. > > \ > > > It's also probably dependent on alloy. High strength > aluminum alloys tend > to be more prone to crevice corrosion than the sorts that > are used for > castings. but htere are any number of less nasty > degreasers available these > days (usually with better pricing, too.). > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Apr 16 21:07:22 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 23:07:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <4BC919E0.40506@verizon.net> References: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BC919E0.40506@verizon.net> Message-ID: Has anyone tried a water soluble cleaner? It is non-so many things does it non-work, too? http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_33401_33401 Monster. Parts Wash is an aqueous substitute for solvent-based cleaners. This is a non-carcinogenic, non-toxic, non-flammable, non-butyl, non-ozone depleting, biodegradable, non-hazardous clean up and Ph 7 solution with rust inhibitors, to inhibit corrosion of metal parts or steel parts. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 21:54:50 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 23:54:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <684961.90321.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <684961.90321.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > BTW, solvents containing methylene chloride (paint remover) can do nasty > tings in the presence of aluminum: > > Any chlorinated solvent will react with aluminum (and usually magnesium, too). Methylene chloride doesn't react vigorously, compared to some other solvents like trichloroethylene or 1,1,1-Trichloroethane (which is banned as an ozone depleter) which react vigoursly enough to start fires (and are auto-catalyzing!) and plumes of phosgene and hydrochloric acid. Methylene choloride doesn't react with oxidized aluminum, and only slowly with pure aluminum, so it's reasonably safe to use it. that said, I see little reason to have chlorinated solvents around the home shop. > > Apparently, the aluminum itself is not corroded. I guess that's why > MC-based stripper is sometimes called "aircraft stripper". > > It does, but not with the layer of aluminun oxide that quickly forms on any aluminun surface. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Apr 17 00:57:36 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 23:57:36 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] air line dryers In-Reply-To: <20100416143655.1JOWY.2348279.root@mp05> References: <20100416143655.1JOWY.2348279.root@mp05> Message-ID: <01cc01caddfb$4350a990$0301a8c0@randall> > I am looking for recommendations for affordable line dryers. The problem with pretty much any affordable dryer is that it can only remove the water that is liquid at the dryer. Once it gets warm from the compressor, water is still going to condense in the hose between the dryer and your tool (or in the tool). One solution to that is to add your own "refrigerator" before the dryer; which can be as simple as a coil of copper tubing immersed in a 5 gallon "pickle bucket" filled with ice. Or what I'm using is just 50' or so of 3/4" cast iron pipe between the compressor & dryer, with a little bit of slope so the water runs back towards a "dirt leg" near the compressor. I'm planning to add an automated drain, but as yet there's not been enough water to worry about. Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Apr 17 15:52:17 2010 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] air line dryers In-Reply-To: <01cc01caddfb$4350a990$0301a8c0@randall> Message-ID: <806767.49255.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I built a proper compressed air plumbing system from black cast iron with a drain leg and a riser, like the one described in the tptools.com web site and catalog. It has worked really well. It has maybe 25 feet of pipe. From tputland at charter.net Tue Apr 20 21:12:51 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:12:51 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Marine Clean substitute/replacement? Message-ID: <20100420231251.88MKK.4975278.root@mp12> A friend gave me some Marine Clean to use as part of the POR15 rust repair/proofing process on my Roadster. I had enough to clean and finish the inner fenders but don't have nearly enough left to do the outer fenders when I get them back from the shop where they are being stripped. I tried to order more from the web site and had all kinds of problems with the web ordering process. I did finally manage to place an order but now cannot confirm it as I am not able to log into the web site AGAIN (same as last weekend started out). I am afraid the order did not get placed even though I have a confirmation number. Even if it ships tomorrow I will not get it in time for the weekend. So, finally my questions: Can Marine Clean be bought "over the counter"? If so, where please? I have not seen it at my FLAPS. Is there something else I can buy OTC that works as well or better? sorry to be so verbose. I needed to vent as well as ask for info. PEACE :-) Tim From fortee9er at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 09:37:14 2010 From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] car a/c work Message-ID: <499263.67978.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> As we say in Texas "I am fixing to do" some car a/c work and need advice. One of the cars involved is a 1987 Volvo 740 with the original R12 system. I have never touched the a/c system on this car all the 8 years that I've owned it. It was low on freon when I purchased it and I rolled down the windows and drove that way for a couple of years. Then it went into storage for five years. I have now revived it gotten it to pass the state emissions and safety inspection but I want air conditioning. How do I test for leaks since the system is virtually empty? I have never done any a/c work on my cars but I do have a/c gauges for r12 and r134 and a few other a/c tools are available to me from friends. Any advice/comments on this project will be greatly appreciated. Jorge From nick at landform.co.uk Wed Apr 21 10:06:22 2010 From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:06:22 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tyre changer Message-ID: <4BCF227E.3000602@landform.co.uk> Wondering if anyone recognised this changer: http://tinyurl.com/y6xg5w3 and had any experience with it? I imagine the critical thing would be anchoring it well. It probably originated on the US side of the pond even though it's offered over here in the UK. Thanks Nick Brearley From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Apr 21 10:32:45 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:32:45 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] car a/c work In-Reply-To: <499263.67978.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <499263.67978.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03cd01cae170$46192440$d24b6cc0$@rr.com> > How do I test for leaks since the system is virtually empty? What the pros do is pressurize it with dry nitrogen, and use soap bubbles to locate leaks. Personally, I would probably start by replacing the compressor and orifice tube (if that's what it uses). The compressor seals will almost certainly be dried out and leaking by now. Most likely all the soft lines are due too, especially if you are converting from R12 to R134. And just BTW, it's a violation of federal law to service A/C without a license. You might want to be a little discreet about not having one, or perhaps even consider getting one. You can study on your own and just take the test; or there are lots of schools around. -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 10:36:19 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:36:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] car a/c work In-Reply-To: <499263.67978.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <499263.67978.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jorge Garcia wrote: > As we say in Texas "I am fixing to do" some car a/c work and need advice. > One of the cars involved is a 1987 Volvo 740 with the original R12 system. I > have never touched the a/c system on this car all the 8 years that I've > owned it. It was low on freon when I purchased it and I rolled down the > windows and drove that way for a couple of years. Then it went into storage > for five years. I have now revived it gotten it to pass the state emissions > and safety inspection but I want air conditioning. > How do I test for leaks since the system is virtually empty? I have never > done any a/c work on my cars but I do have a/c gauges for r12 and r134 and a > few other a/c tools are available to me from friends. > Any advice/comments on this project will be greatly appreciated. > Expect to spend a bunch.... First step is to evacuate (and recover, please!) all the existing refridgerent. then you pull a vacuum, and see if it decays. If it doesn't, then you don't have a leak (or you have a leak that only exists under pressure). If it does leak, and hte leak is fairly small, charge the system, icnluding a dye. Then find the leak, evacuate the system, repair the leak, check that it holds vacuum, charge, test for leaks. But really, I'd take the car to a shop, have them find the leaks, and fix them myself. (If I decided I wanted to spend the money. You'll likely need a compressor and condensor.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Apr 21 10:48:27 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:48:27 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Marine Clean substitute/replacement? In-Reply-To: <20100420231251.88MKK.4975278.root@mp12> References: <20100420231251.88MKK.4975278.root@mp12> Message-ID: <03d501cae172$77cb3d50$6761b7f0$@rr.com> > A friend gave me some Marine Clean to use as part of the POR15 rust > repair/proofing process on my Roadster Sorry I can't help, Tim. But I wonder if anyone else sees the irony in a product called "Paint Over Rust" that requires two other special preparation chemicals. -- Randall From tputland at charter.net Wed Apr 21 11:38:51 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:38:51 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Marine Clean substitute/replacement? In-Reply-To: <03d501cae172$77cb3d50$6761b7f0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <20100421133851.QJND3.4991014.root@mp20> It is my understanding that, if the surface to be rust proofed is all rusty (no clean metal) then you should not need to use a metal etching acid as the rusty surface has enough tooth for the POR15 to grab onto--I have experimented with this on a bent part not usable, and this seems to be the case. You would want to remove any lose rust to make sure it doesn't chip off at a later time. The Marine Clean would be useful for any painting process to remove any and all oil, etc as I am pretty sure not much would stick, in the long term, to a surface not cleaned of oils, etc. At least, this has been my experience as I learn about new processes. Tim Dairyland Datsuns ---- Randall wrote: ============= > A friend gave me some Marine Clean to use as part of the POR15 rust > repair/proofing process on my Roadster Sorry I can't help, Tim. But I wonder if anyone else sees the irony in a product called "Paint Over Rust" that requires two other special preparation chemicals. -- Randall _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From pat at hornesystemstx.com Wed Apr 21 12:07:46 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:07:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] car a/c work In-Reply-To: <499263.67978.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <499263.67978.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BCF3EF2.3060500@hornesystemstx.com> That dog won't hunt! Hot damn, the first thing y'all do is to look at all the hose connections for oil or possibly dry dirt that looks like it could have been stuck there by oil. This will give y'all a leg up on where you might have a leak. If there is any freon left in the system there is a special light - I think it;s ultraviolet, and a pair of yellow glasses that will cause the oil to fluoress greenish yellow. It works much better if the system has a dye in it, but regular oil will fluoress some on its own. I'd be fixin' to take it to a show where, if there is some freon in it, can add some more, check for leaks, then pull all the freon out for the repair. The removed freon is yours, so they can put it back in, usually not charging you for the gas that they pull out. Where are you located? Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jorge Garcia, On 4/21/2010 10:37 AM: > As we say in Texas "I am fixing to do" some car a/c work and need advice. One of the cars involved is a 1987 Volvo 740 with the original R12 system. I have never touched the a/c system on this car all the 8 years that I've owned it. It was low on freon when I purchased it and I rolled down the windows and drove that way for a couple of years. Then it went into storage for five years. I have now revived it gotten it to pass the state emissions and safety inspection but I want air conditioning. > How do I test for leaks since the system is virtually empty? I have never done any a/c work on my cars but I do have a/c gauges for r12 and r134 and a few other a/c tools are available to me from friends. > Any advice/comments on this project will be greatly appreciated. > Jorge > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Apr 21 13:58:00 2010 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:58:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop paint Message-ID: <2A8833A5D663459DA610A0847F48EEFB@OwnerPC> I'm having vinyl siding put on my shop as we speak (type) now I need to repaint the doors/windows. Used Benjamin-Moore Acrylic Enamel before with good results but not a dealer near me now... I want oil based and semi to hi gloss for the trim..... any recommendations/warnings on brand and name ??? I don't mind the 35-50 bucks a gallon if it will last more than two years !!! john It is not only what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we are accountable. Jean Baptiste Moliere From bobkegel at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 15:15:25 2010 From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:15:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Marine Clean substitute/replacement? In-Reply-To: <20100420231251.88MKK.4975278.root@mp12> Message-ID: <44E82DD944C84523A126FBB909B179D8@MIKE> I just checked the POR15 paint job I did on my garage-queen BMW 2002 ten years ago. Still looks good and I didn't use Marine Clean. Don't recall what I used, probably Oil Eater from Costco. Bob K From racertod at racertodd.com Wed Apr 21 21:38:13 2010 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:38:13 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tyre changer In-Reply-To: <4BCF227E.3000602@landform.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100421203327.00c44288@mail.avvanta.com> Nick wrote: >Wondering if anyone recognised this changer: > >http://tinyurl.com/y6xg5w3 > >and had any experience with it? I imagine the critical thing would be >anchoring it well. It probably originated on the US side of the pond even >though it's offered over here in the UK. It's a TSI model CH-22, see: www.tsissg.com . Never used one, so I can't offer any help in that area. I do like the tire tool (CH-4 Mongoose) it comes with, it looks like a big improvement over regular tire irons. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 237,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From chad at linuxeg.com Fri Apr 23 21:29:57 2010 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 23:29:57 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Stud Install Message-ID: <4BD265B5.5050803@linuxeg.com> I'm replacing the head bolts on my SBC with ARP studs. With the cap screws I used ARP's sealant (the bolts holes open into the water jacket). I'd like to Loctite the studs in place but not sure which produce to use. On the mains I used #262 (red) but #271 "locks and seals (Enco catalog page 917) so I'm thinking this may be a better choice - the catalog continues "...bearing retaining nuts, cylinder liner studs, door closer plugs, ..." Any recommendations? Sure was easier when all they had was "Nutlock" and Studlock"! Thanks, chad -- "Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, 1803 From ronnie.day at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 06:19:45 2010 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 07:19:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Stud Install In-Reply-To: <4BD265B5.5050803@linuxeg.com> References: <4BD265B5.5050803@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: > Chad > I'm replacing the head bolts on my SBC with ARP studs. > With the cap screws I used ARP's sealant (the bolts holes > open into the water jacket). I'd like to Loctite the studs in place > but not sure which produce to use. On the mains I used #262 (red) > but #271 "locks and seals (Enco catalog page 917) so I'm thinking this > may be a better choice - the catalog continues "...bearing retaining nuts, > cylinder liner studs, door closer plugs, ..." Any recommendations? > Sure was easier when all they had was "Nutlock" and Studlock"! I'd call Loctite or send them an email. FWIW, Ron From nick at landform.co.uk Sat Apr 24 06:38:05 2010 From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 13:38:05 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tyre changer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100421203327.00c44288@mail.avvanta.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100421203327.00c44288@mail.avvanta.com> Message-ID: <4BD2E62D.1070902@landform.co.uk> Todd Walke wrote: > > It's a TSI model CH-22, see: www.tsissg.com . Never used one, > so I can't offer any help in that area. I do like the tire tool (CH-4 > Mongoose) it comes with, it looks like a big improvement over regular > tire irons. > Thanks Todd, that's it. For once the exchange rate is slightly in our favour! Reading the manual the Mongoose looks a useful item. Nick 3 VW GTIs in my past... long gone... fondly remembered From shop at justbrits.com Sat Apr 24 19:01:31 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 20:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Stud Install In-Reply-To: <4BD265B5.5050803@linuxeg.com> References: <4BD265B5.5050803@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <4BD3946B.3020506@justbrits.com> As somebody else suggested, Chad..... << Any recommendations? >> Check on LockTite's site. Or even El Camino Central or the other various Chebbie sites -:) -:) !! Ed '70 El Camino [Blackie] For Sale on my site w/pics. '70 El Camino ........[Amber] daily driver w/pics on my site wearing ........STD IL plates 7 AH BJ '63 Austin-Healey BJ-7 ........[Hortense THE Healey wearing STD IL plates AH BJ 7. '73 Black Tulip MGB [Murial] wearing STD IL plates CINS73. '05 Malibu Maxx [Silvia] BEST car Chev has made in YEARS; ........which was NEVER advert'ed and aborted -:( -:( -:( ! ........I even LIKE it & I HATE new "cars" -:) !! From chad at linuxeg.com Sat Apr 24 22:21:32 2010 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:21:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Stud Install In-Reply-To: <4BD3946B.3020506@justbrits.com> References: <4BD265B5.5050803@linuxeg.com> <4BD3946B.3020506@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <4BD3C34C.2050408@linuxeg.com> Went back to Loctite's web site and found a .pdf on 271. Told me all I need to know and then some.. "LOCTITE. 271 is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration. Typical applications include the locking and sealing of large bolts and studs (up to M25 )." 7. For Sealing Applications, apply a 3600 bead of product to the leading threads of the male fitting, leaving the first thread free. Force the material into the threads to thouroughly fill the voids. For bigger threads and voids, adjust product amount accordingly and apply a 3600 bead of product on the female threads also. Next time I'll exhaust all possible sources before posting. Thanks all, chad -- "He that goes a borrowing goes a sorrowing." -- Benjamin Franklin, writings, 1758 From ronnie.day at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 06:51:01 2010 From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:51:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Stud Install In-Reply-To: <4BD3C34C.2050408@linuxeg.com> References: <4BD265B5.5050803@linuxeg.com> <4BD3946B.3020506@justbrits.com> <4BD3C34C.2050408@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: Not a problem, at least as far as I'm concerned. Your question got me to thinking. Some engines have threaded holes into water jackets and you gotta seal 'em. RD On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Chad on LEG wrote: > Went back to Loctite's web site and found a .pdf on 271. > Told me all I need to know and then some.. > > > > "LOCTITE. 271 B is designed for the permanent locking and > sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when > confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal > surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage from shock and > vibration. Typical applications include the locking and sealing > of large bolts and studs (up to M25 )." > > > > 7. For Sealing Applications, apply a 3600 bead of product > to the leading threads of the male fitting, leaving the first > thread free. Force the material into the threads to > thouroughly fill the voids. For bigger threads and voids, > adjust product amount accordingly and apply a 3600 > bead of product on the female threads also. > > > Next time I'll exhaust all possible sources before posting. > Thanks all, > chad From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Apr 26 18:55:03 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:55:03 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cast iron welding and repair information Message-ID: <068801cae5a4$4aafc170$e00f4450$@rr.com> This link was posted on another list, I thought it might be of general interest. http://www.locknstitch.com/CastIronWelding.htm -- Randall From mdporter at dfn.com Mon Apr 26 19:32:59 2010 From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:32:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] [TR] Cast iron welding and repair information In-Reply-To: <068801cae5a4$4aafc170$e00f4450$@rr.com> References: <068801cae5a4$4aafc170$e00f4450$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4BD63ECB.60600@dfn.com> Randall wrote: > This link was posted on another list, I thought it might be of general > interest. > > http://www.locknstitch.com/CastIronWelding.htm > > Yeah, from what I can see on the site, they are trying to establish best practice. But, in practical experience, I've seen cast-iron repairs were adequate for the intended use. An old Allis-Chalmers four-cylinder block crack repaired with a half-assed welding job that was perfectly satisfactory for an engine that didn't exceed 1300 rpm. A very expensive Caterpillar six-cylinder block that was repaired with the best Eutectic cast-iron arc rod available, done by a good welder and the repair was indistinguishable from the original after stress relief, except for the color of the repair. I myself arc-welded up a crack in a `58 Mercedes 220S exhaust manifold when no parts were available at reasonable cost that turned out to be quite serviceable. I think stress relief is the key to most good cast-iron repairs, since even the best available rods are pretty hard compared to the base material, and arc-welding contributes to the brittleness of the interstice between cast material and the repair material because of the high heat involved and the air-cooling of the exposed material, which can make for some weird stresses. Cheers. -- Michael Porter Roswell, NM Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... From eltonclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 21:47:37 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:47:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] [TR] Cast iron welding and repair information In-Reply-To: <4BD63ECB.60600@dfn.com> References: <068801cae5a4$4aafc170$e00f4450$@rr.com> <4BD63ECB.60600@dfn.com> Message-ID: *That was educational and interesting.* ** *We had a tech in our dealership that developed a technique for welding the horizontal freeze crack which often happened to the left side of the Ford 2N, 8N & 9N Ford tractor block. Ordinary nickle rod applied to a veed out crack NEVER worked for all the illustrated reasons . . However, my tech experimented with making a vertical cross bead about every 1 1/2" across the crack. We think the cross bead stabilized the thin cast iron and contracted to form a compression of the material to effect a good seal action. After it cooled overnight, he would add a good leak sealer like "Alumniseal" to the coolant and run the engine to operating temp. We did dozens of them and never had a comeback. * From kentsu at corvairkid.com Tue Apr 27 09:54:21 2010 From: kentsu at corvairkid.com (Kent Sullivan) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:54:21 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers In-Reply-To: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <262452.7130.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02c201cae621$e6fd7540$b4f85fc0$@com> A friend of mine is a salesman for ChemSearch Corp. He recommended Voltz II Red and I gave it a try. It is fabulous--really cleans well. Also, it comes with a catalyst that can be used to cause the "gunk" to precipitate and be removed, which extends the life of the solvent. It is, however, quite expensive per gallon. Here's the MSDS: http://dsc.dixie.edu/physplant/safety/MSDS/PDF/000138.pdf It talks about it being a skin irritant. I have found that any such effects are not immediate and I can dip my hand in there briefly to do something without problems, as long as I wash my hands reasonably soon. --Kent -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard Kleihorst Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 12:39 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] alternative fluids for parts washers Hi, I have a 45L parts washer and considering what fluid to use. Usually kerosine, diesel or petroleum based derivatives are used, but I have some health considerations because of the nasty chemicals inside. Especially the aromats, benzenes and olefinen are no use for cleaning, but unsafe to breathe. Does anyone have any experience with other cleaning agents, such as liquid soap, vinegar, cleaning soda? I tried to use the dishwasher (they clean with lye) but it might take 4 runs to do something decent for engine parts, and you have to make sure that the SO doesn't catch you. Richard From eric at megageek.com Wed Apr 28 02:35:46 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:05:46 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here Message-ID: OK, this isn't shop related, but it could become shop related. (See below how) With the massive brain trust here, I'm sure someone has this answer. I'm trying to configure a Polycom QDX 6000 system up here in Afghanistan. I have all the settings right as far as I can tell. I can connect to other units, but when I do, I get a blank screen and no audio. The Web Service runs properly and I can make and hang up calls with it. But it doesn't recognize my camera feed (or the remote feed) either. The system's camera works fine from the unit and broadcasts on the local monitor. Any help would be appreciated. (Of course, Polycom doesn't have any free online support. But they are happy to charge a ton of money to answer a question.) How this may be shop related? I may but one of these units for my garage!! It could be a great way to explain to other people the "problems" or "parts" that are broken in the shop. 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From tputland at charter.net Wed Apr 28 06:32:10 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 5:32:10 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20100428083210.YJ0YC.5335337.root@mp18> I had similar (or same?) issues here at work with a Polycom 7000. Calls were connecting but in some cases I would have audio but no video, or video with no audio. It turned out that there were specific ports in the firewall that were not open. Unfortunately for me, the IT dept downtown (I work for the State of WI) will not give control of anything to anybody. I cannot even LOOK at the firewall logs to look for the dropped packets that will tell what ports are not allowing the packets to pass. Bottom line, they ended up opening the firewall ports wide open just to get the calls to properly connect. We are supposed to do some testing so they can close down ports that are not needed. I have yet to receive that phone call. But my Polycom units are working correclty now. Tim ---- eric at megageek.com wrote: ============= OK, this isn't shop related, but it could become shop related. (See below how) With the massive brain trust here, I'm sure someone has this answer. I'm trying to configure a Polycom QDX 6000 system up here in Afghanistan. I have all the settings right as far as I can tell. I can connect to other units, but when I do, I get a blank screen and no audio. The Web Service runs properly and I can make and hang up calls with it. But it doesn't recognize my camera feed (or the remote feed) either. The system's camera works fine from the unit and broadcasts on the local monitor. Any help would be appreciated. (Of course, Polycom doesn't have any free online support. But they are happy to charge a ton of money to answer a question.) How this may be shop related? I may but one of these units for my garage!! It could be a great way to explain to other people the "problems" or "parts" that are broken in the shop. 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From eric at megageek.com Wed Apr 28 06:45:07 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:15:07 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here In-Reply-To: <20100428083210.YJ0YC.5335337.root@mp18> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply. I don't have any firewall in front of the unit (I didn't want to add to complexity until I got it working.) The Afghani government just started filtering all traffic in the country, I wonder if they are blocking certain ports. um... Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Tim 04/28/2010 16:54 To shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net, eric at megageek.com cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here I had similar (or same?) issues here at work with a Polycom 7000. Calls were connecting but in some cases I would have audio but no video, or video with no audio. It turned out that there were specific ports in the firewall that were not open. Unfortunately for me, the IT dept downtown (I work for the State of WI) will not give control of anything to anybody. I cannot even LOOK at the firewall logs to look for the dropped packets that will tell what ports are not allowing the packets to pass. Bottom line, they ended up opening the firewall ports wide open just to get the calls to properly connect. We are supposed to do some testing so they can close down ports that are not needed. I have yet to receive that phone call. But my Polycom units are working correclty now. Tim ---- eric at megageek.com wrote: ============= OK, this isn't shop related, but it could become shop related. (See below how) With the massive brain trust here, I'm sure someone has this answer. I'm trying to configure a Polycom QDX 6000 system up here in Afghanistan. I have all the settings right as far as I can tell. I can connect to other units, but when I do, I get a blank screen and no audio. The Web Service runs properly and I can make and hang up calls with it. But it doesn't recognize my camera feed (or the remote feed) either. The system's camera works fine from the unit and broadcasts on the local monitor. Any help would be appreciated. (Of course, Polycom doesn't have any free online support. But they are happy to charge a ton of money to answer a question.) How this may be shop related? I may but one of these units for my garage!! It could be a great way to explain to other people the "problems" or "parts" that are broken in the shop. 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From peterwmurray at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 14:25:54 2010 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:25:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here In-Reply-To: References: <20100428083210.YJ0YC.5335337.root@mp18> Message-ID: Eric- Is your connectivity via satellite or is it terrestrial-based? If it is satellite, then I don't think the Afghani government has much control over what traverses your link via the satellite. Satellite providers have a lot of gear in place to control application performance, caching, etc - as well as block applications that can jam up the limited "pipe" through the bird. In any case, I would check with your provider and see if they are doing any filtering, transparent proxying, etc. Let me know if you need any USA-based testing help. -Peter (recovering ISP backbone engineer) -- Peter Murray (N3IXY) Oak Hill, VA On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:45 AM, wrote: > Thanks for the reply. I don't have any firewall in front of the unit (I > didn't want to add to complexity until I got it working.) > > The Afghani government just started filtering all traffic in the country, > I wonder if they are blocking certain ports. um... > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson From eric at megageek.com Thu Apr 29 00:57:52 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 11:27:52 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, the Afghani government did start filtering all connectivity coming into the country. Even though our satellite is out of Germany, the company was required to filter all their accounts in Afghanistan (or they would lose their business licence in the country.) I already confirmed this with our provider. It's been a major PIA. Not only are they filtering content, they aren't doing a good job of it. FWIW, things here in Afghanistan are getting worst. The government is cracking down on everything, and it's trying to push the US and NATO out (fine by me.) Yesterday the local police started raiding contractor residences looking for alcohol. So last night we had to get rid of all of our booze. We have over 100 bottles and their was only 18 of us to drink/to whatever to get rid of it. Not only do I have a massive hangover today, but I got some great pictures of me in a Jacuzzi tub filled with red wine and champagne! Which, BTW, I'm sure I'll being asking a question about how to fix a Jacuzzi pump after it fails. Did you know that submerging yourself in liquor REALLY burns your eyes? 8>) I'll have to post the pictures soon. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Peter Murray 04/29/2010 00:48 To eric at megageek.com cc Shop-Talk List Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here Eric- Is your connectivity via satellite or is it terrestrial-based? If it is satellite, then I don't think the Afghani government has much control over what traverses your link via the satellite. Satellite providers have a lot of gear in place to control application performance, caching, etc - as well as block applications that can jam up the limited "pipe" through the bird. In any case, I would check with your provider and see if they are doing any filtering, transparent proxying, etc. Let me know if you need any USA-based testing help. -Peter (recovering ISP backbone engineer) -- Peter Murray (N3IXY) Oak Hill, VA On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:45 AM, wrote: > Thanks for the reply. I don't have any firewall in front of the unit (I > didn't want to add to complexity until I got it working.) > > The Afghani government just started filtering all traffic in the country, > I wonder if they are blocking certain ports. um... > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson From mark at bradakis.com Thu Apr 29 01:38:18 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 01:38:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD9376A.4080607@bradakis.com> I normally don't do this. Maybe it was the wine I had after dinner. When people send in contributions to Team.Net, I sometimes eventually get around to possibly responding with a thank you note on occasion. But I do not usually name names of list members who contribute in whatever fashion This, however, is just such a thank you note. In the Fat Chance post office box today was a small envelope sent from Afghanistan. Gee, who could that be from? It contained a couple of small trinkets of little value, tokens of appreciation, the kind that are priceless beyond measure. Thank you. mjb. ps: I do have a room big enough to hold the rug ;-) From eric at megageek.com Thu Apr 29 03:24:08 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:54:08 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oreilly's Auto parts Message-ID: Has anyone ever ordered from Oreilly's autoparts? I was thinking about picking up on of these. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EMB0/121G.oap?keyword=121g 8>) Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From pat at hornesystemstx.com Thu Apr 29 04:14:19 2010 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 05:14:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oreilly's Auto parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD95BFB.3020107@hornesystemstx.com> Cool. but who makes the adapter to use it on other vehicles? Will this improve the gas mileage on my 67.5 Datsun roadster? Peace, Pat Thusly spake eric at megageek.com, On 4/29/2010 4:24 AM: > Has anyone ever ordered from Oreilly's autoparts? I was thinking about > picking up on of these. > > http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EMB0/121G.oap?keyword=121g > > 8>) > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pat at hornesystemstx.com > > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Thu Apr 29 04:31:02 2010 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (gerry brazil) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 06:31:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oreilly's Auto parts In-Reply-To: <4BD95BFB.3020107@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <7A99D20819CF4E1B9C766893901A8F31@Digilink1> Don't know about mileage, but it sure should improve the speed..... From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Apr 29 06:57:16 2010 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 08:57:16 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oreilly's Auto parts In-Reply-To: <4BD95BFB.3020107@hornesystemstx.com> References: <4BD95BFB.3020107@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <8D5002AEAD14497788D05993E725E9E8@EricJRussellPC> Is the body stainless steel? Can it go 88 mph? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > Will this improve the gas mileage on my 67.5 Datsun roadster? > Pat From tputland at charter.net Thu Apr 29 08:24:05 2010 From: tputland at charter.net (Tim) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 7:24:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fools and Funding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20100429102405.IKZO1.5422958.root@mp19> On behalf of the Dairyland Datsun Club, Dan and I have put into the pot. Who's next? Tim Dairyland Datsuns ---- "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" wrote: ============= *Thanks for what you do Mark . My support is on the way by PayPals and I want to "guilt" everyone who enjoys the lists but hasn't yet put anything in the pot! * *Tony* On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > No, this is not a political rant about the scoundrels on Capitol Hill. > I'll rant about that elsewhere, probably the prattle forum on the > Team.Net forums. For the moment, though, consider this my annual > State of Team.Net speech. It is getting sent out on All Fool's > Day. More on that in a bit. > > Back in April of 1991 the domain team.net was registered. We are 19 > years old this month. Of course there were a few years before then > that email was just sent to various places as the lists were in their > infancy. The patriarch of the family was SOL, the Scions of Lucas, > thanks to Dale Cook and Jim Muller. Now there are over 60 Team.Net > email lists, and about 14,000 subscribers scattered about the planet. > > And 19 years old describes my age when I moved to Salt Lake City, a > young lad looking for adventure in the mountains through climbing and > skiing. And many an adventure was to be had. The biggest was no > doubt the Weird Winter Wall trip of 1977. I really need to write that > up, get a bunch of the slides digitized to share with others. The > short version is that I am amazingly lucky to still be alive. It was > April 1st, 1977 when the four of us, hungry and exhausted, demoralized > and chilled to the bone sat on a mountainside in the Wind Rivers and > watched the sun come up. Sunrises are always beautiful, but to this > day those first faintly glowing streaks of red, orange and gold have > never looked so welcome as on that morning. We knew we'd make it, > we'd see more sunrises. > > It seems appropriate that we returned to civilization on April Fool's > day. A winter ascent of the North Face of Mt. Hooker seems a fool's > errand in hindsight. But I survived. > > And Team.Net has survived. There have certainly been many times over > the years when I've felt the fool for putting in the effort to keep it > going. Just hitting the off switch and walking away would have been > so easy. > > But far more prominent are the occasions where a well crafted message, > an unsolicited thank you or donation, a T shirt or some trinket > unexpectedly showing up at my doorstep makes me realize what a > treasure Team.Net has been over the years. There are untold old > classics out there still on the road, thanks to you folks. Sure, you > may have never turned a wrench on them, or pushed them in or out of > the garage, but the technical support provided, along with the email > equivalent of a friendly smile and a heartfelt pat on the back has > kept folks going. They've taken that fool's errand of a hopeless > restoration and brought it back from near death to see another sunrise. > > > If you see fit, please make use of the information provided at > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > mjb. > > > "But look, the morn in russet mantle clad walks o'er the dew of yon > high eastward hill" Hamlet, Wm. Shakespeare > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tputland at charter.net From shop at justbrits.com Thu Apr 29 12:17:31 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:17:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oreilly's Auto parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD9CD3B.4090109@justbrits.com> << Has anyone ever ordered from Oreilly's autoparts? I was thinking about picking up on of these. >> OMG, it's BACK !!! Er, either the mountains or the "sand box" or the "Spa Bath" has GOTTEN to Moose !!! Alas, can there be ANY "help" for him ?!? Ed From jdinnis at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 12:56:22 2010 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:56:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oreilly's Auto parts In-Reply-To: <4BD9CD3B.4090109@justbrits.com> References: <4BD9CD3B.4090109@justbrits.com> Message-ID: Availability Online: Not Sold Online Store: Online Only On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Shop at " Just Brits " wrote: > << Has anyone ever ordered from Oreilly's autoparts? I was > thinking about picking up on of these. >> > > OMG, it's BACK !!! > > Er, either the mountains or the "sand box" or the "Spa > Bath" has GOTTEN to Moose !!! Alas, can there be ANY > "help" for him ?!? > > Ed > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From lee at automate-it.com Thu Apr 29 13:25:41 2010 From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:25:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oreilly's Auto parts In-Reply-To: References: <4BD9CD3B.4090109@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <9b2e0712a977898b195f8a8bc0811581.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Click on the 'compatibility' tab, and we see: This part also fits: Year(s) Make Model Engine 1981-1983 Delorean DMC 12 V6 - 2.9L 174ci 2850cc - MFI GAS SOHC >> << Has anyone ever ordered from Oreilly's autoparts? I was >> thinking about picking up on of these. >> From eltonclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 17:11:08 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:11:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Fools and Funding In-Reply-To: References: <20100401084947.0A18A2E0B2@bradakis.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark Date: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fools and Funding To: Mark J Bradakis Cc: Shop Talk List *Thanks for what you do Mark . My support is on the way by PayPals and I want to "guilt" everyone who enjoys the lists but hasn't yet put anything in the pot! * *Tony* On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > No, this is not a political rant about the scoundrels on Capitol Hill. > I'll rant about that elsewhere, probably the prattle forum on the > Team.Net forums. For the moment, though, consider this my annual > State of Team.Net speech. It is getting sent out on All Fool's > Day. More on that in a bit. > > Back in April of 1991 the domain team.net was registered. We are 19 > years old this month. Of course there were a few years before then > that email was just sent to various places as the lists were in their > infancy. The patriarch of the family was SOL, the Scions of Lucas, > thanks to Dale Cook and Jim Muller. Now there are over 60 Team.Net > email lists, and about 14,000 subscribers scattered about the planet. > > And 19 years old describes my age when I moved to Salt Lake City, a > young lad looking for adventure in the mountains through climbing and > skiing. And many an adventure was to be had. The biggest was no > doubt the Weird Winter Wall trip of 1977. I really need to write that > up, get a bunch of the slides digitized to share with others. The > short version is that I am amazingly lucky to still be alive. It was > April 1st, 1977 when the four of us, hungry and exhausted, demoralized > and chilled to the bone sat on a mountainside in the Wind Rivers and > watched the sun come up. Sunrises are always beautiful, but to this > day those first faintly glowing streaks of red, orange and gold have > never looked so welcome as on that morning. We knew we'd make it, > we'd see more sunrises. > > It seems appropriate that we returned to civilization on April Fool's > day. A winter ascent of the North Face of Mt. Hooker seems a fool's > errand in hindsight. But I survived. > > And Team.Net has survived. There have certainly been many times over > the years when I've felt the fool for putting in the effort to keep it > going. Just hitting the off switch and walking away would have been > so easy. > > But far more prominent are the occasions where a well crafted message, > an unsolicited thank you or donation, a T shirt or some trinket > unexpectedly showing up at my doorstep makes me realize what a > treasure Team.Net has been over the years. There are untold old > classics out there still on the road, thanks to you folks. Sure, you > may have never turned a wrench on them, or pushed them in or out of > the garage, but the technical support provided, along with the email > equivalent of a friendly smile and a heartfelt pat on the back has > kept folks going. They've taken that fool's errand of a hopeless > restoration and brought it back from near death to see another sunrise. > > > If you see fit, please make use of the information provided at > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > mjb. > > > "But look, the morn in russet mantle clad walks o'er the dew of yon > high eastward hill" Hamlet, Wm. Shakespeare > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From shop at justbrits.com Thu Apr 29 18:01:39 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:01:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Stab in the dark here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BDA1DE3.8040302@justbrits.com> << Did you know that submerging yourself in liquor REALLY burns your eyes? >> Yep, Moose. BUT I will NEVER disclose a] how LONG ago it was I learned THAT "lesson" nor, b] What year it was. !!!! I know nuttin' !!!!!!! Anon PS: AIN'T gonna happen !!!!!!! From mark at bradakis.com Thu Apr 29 19:29:17 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:29:17 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] That isn't nice Message-ID: <4BDA326D.50405@bradakis.com> A cold and wet day here in Salt Lake, I fix a pot of shrimp and sausage soup*. Dish it up for our dinner, turn on the TV to watch the evening news. Nothing but static. The cheap little digital converter box we bought last year has kissed the turf. Should I just buy a new converter? Should I break down and purchase a new digital TV with money I don't really have to spend on such an item? In truth I do have a digital television tuner card that came in a PC a few years back, but none of the varieties of Unix I run recognize the hardware. I'd hate to have a Windows box running just for TV news! What fun. mjb. *: http://wasatchfoodies.com/viewtopic.php?f=8t=38 From mark at bradakis.com Thu Apr 29 19:43:06 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:43:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] That isn't nice In-Reply-To: <4BDA326D.50405@bradakis.com> References: <4BDA326D.50405@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <4BDA35AA.3000203@bradakis.com> Oops, fat finger syndrome. The link to the soup recipe, for the one or two who might care, should be: http://wasatchfoodies.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38 mjb. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Apr 29 19:50:42 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:50:42 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] That isn't nice In-Reply-To: <4BDA326D.50405@bradakis.com> References: <4BDA326D.50405@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <4BDA3772.7050400@xxiii.com> On 4/29/2010 9:29 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > soup*. Dish it up for our dinner, turn on the TV to watch the evening > news. Nothing but static. The cheap little digital converter box we bought > last year has kissed the turf. Dunno what to tell ya'. I was shopping recently and Best Buy had 'em for about $54. Here's a very cool web site http://www.antennaweb.org that you can plug your address or coordinates into, and it suggests what you can probably receive (taking topography into account) and suggests antennas to use. Apparently there is some unified grading on the new DTV antennas (good idea.) Unfortunately, I'm SOL here with some pretty radical elevation changes. Had to run coax through one neighbor's yard the the 2nd just to mount a satellite dish with a clear view! -W From mark at bradakis.com Thu Apr 29 20:47:19 2010 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:47:19 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Fools and Funding In-Reply-To: References: <20100401084947.0A18A2E0B2@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <4BDA44B7.5090202@bradakis.com> Thanks for reminding folks. No doubt some of you watch public television and listen to NPR radio stations and such. My favorite in Salt Lake is KRCL. Twice a year they have fund drives. For like a week or so they are *constantly* badgering listeners about contributing. I did so happily back when I had a steady income. The Team.Net funding drives are based on the same idea, it is just that I send out one, and only one message about it when it occurs. One could claim that the donate link in the real time message trailers proves otherwise, but nobody ever pays attention to that ;-) Okay, I do often slip in a sly reference to donations every now and again at other times, but I try annoy as little as possible. It is nice to have others who care about keeping Team.Net on the air pitch on behalf of keeping the bills paid and the hardware running. Thanks again. Of course, tonight I am more concerned about the hardware involved in getting a TV signal, as my previous "That isn't nice"message outlined. Better living through technology, indeed! mjb. From marka at maracing.com Thu Apr 29 21:48:59 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 23:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] That isn't nice In-Reply-To: <4BDA326D.50405@bradakis.com> References: <4BDA326D.50405@bradakis.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > Should I just buy a new converter? Should I break down and purchase a > new digital TV with money I don't really have to spend on such an item? I wouldn't starve my kid to do it, but the new digital / HD stuff really does make a difference. Mark From eric at megageek.com Fri Apr 30 05:40:46 2010 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:10:46 +0430 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank Message-ID: Everyday our company send out a "Safety" message. As you can image, their are starting to reach for topics (a little while ago we had one on "Magnet Safety.) Today was about container that appear empty. They have a bunch of information about cleaning them and such. But caught my eye was when they said that if you are going to do "hot work" on a container, fill it with water. My question, if you are welding a 55 gal drum for example, filled with water, would you get proper penetration for the weld? I was just curious. Thanks! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From marka at maracing.com Fri Apr 30 08:19:54 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 10:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 30 Apr 2010, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Today was about container that appear empty. They have a bunch of > information about cleaning them and such. But caught my eye was when they > said that if you are going to do "hot work" on a container, fill it with > water. > > My question, if you are welding a 55 gal drum for example, filled with > water, would you get proper penetration for the weld? I did this once welding a handle back onto a 30 liter fuel drum. Worked fine. You need to use a little more heat than you normally would, as I recall, since there's such a big heat sink. I'm sure someone that does it a lot would have better insight. :-) Mark From crothfuss at coastalnet.com Fri Apr 30 11:50:08 2010 From: crothfuss at coastalnet.com (crothfuss at coastalnet.com) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:50:08 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank Message-ID: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Eric, If this is a tank full of flamable liquids (like gasoline) it's a lot of work to drain/fill with water/drain water/dry/refill w/flamable liquid. Far easier to just remove the oxygen needed to support combustion. Car exhaust is available and portable. With exhaust pumped into the container to purge the oxygen, you can weld the tank quickly without all the problems water can create. I've done this on several gas tanks. As always YMMV. No idea if it's OSHA approved, or if it'll be safe on every kind of tank/flamable liquid. Chuck -----Original Message----- >From: eric at megageek.com >Sent: Apr 30, 2010 7:40 AM >To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net >Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank > >Everyday our company send out a "Safety" message. As you can image, their >are starting to reach for topics (a little while ago we had one on >"Magnet Safety.) > >Today was about container that appear empty. They have a bunch of >information about cleaning them and such. But caught my eye was when they >said that if you are going to do "hot work" on a container, fill it with >water. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Apr 30 11:57:35 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 10:57:35 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Fools and Funding In-Reply-To: <4BDA44B7.5090202@bradakis.com> References: <20100401084947.0A18A2E0B2@bradakis.com> <4BDA44B7.5090202@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <023501cae88e$9d92e3d0$d8b8ab70$@rr.com> > Okay, I do often slip in a sly reference to donations every now and > again > at other times, but I try annoy as little as possible. Thank you! I actually don't listen to NPR, at least partially because I find their fund-raising so obnoxious. -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 12:25:22 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:25:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:50 PM, wrote: > Eric, > > If this is a tank full of flamable liquids (like gasoline) it's a lot of > work to drain/fill with water/drain water/dry/refill w/flamable liquid. Far > easier to just remove the oxygen needed to support > combustion. Car exhaust is available and portable. With exhaust pumped > into the container to purge the > oxygen, you can weld the tank quickly without all the problems water can > create. I've done this on several > gas tanks. As always YMMV. No idea if it's OSHA approved, or if it'll be > safe on every kind of tank/flamable liquid. > > Right, because filling a tank with an explosive gas is always a good idea! Particularly right before you expose it to open flame! There are safe ways to fill a tank with an inert atmosphere. This *is not* one of them. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Apr 30 13:50:29 2010 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:50:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4BDB3485.2010808@xxiii.com> On 4/30/2010 2:25 PM, David Scheidt wrote: >> ...Car exhaust is available and portable. With exhaust pumped >> into the container to purge the oxygen, you can weld the tank >> > Right, because filling a tank with an explosive gas is always a good idea! > Particularly right before you expose it to open flame! I was thinking the same thing. That sounds like a super bad idea. What happens if you're welding this thin sheet metal and blow a hole through it and the gas starts leaking out?! As far as the "explosive gas" I guess you mean CO? Any car with a properly functioning fuel injection and catalytic converter(s) should have nearly zero CO content; ditto for unburned gas or oxygen. So if you're ever in the mood to kill yourself, don't do the old "car in the closed garage" trick. It don't work anymore! -Wayne From marka at maracing.com Fri Apr 30 14:37:04 2010 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 30 Apr 2010, David Scheidt wrote: >> If this is a tank full of flamable liquids (like gasoline) it's a lot of >> work to drain/fill with water/drain water/dry/refill w/flamable liquid. Far >> easier to just remove the oxygen needed to support >> combustion. Car exhaust is available and portable. With exhaust pumped >> into the container to purge the >> oxygen, you can weld the tank quickly without all the problems water can >> create. I've done this on several >> gas tanks. As always YMMV. No idea if it's OSHA approved, or if it'll be >> safe on every kind of tank/flamable liquid. >> >> > Right, because filling a tank with an explosive gas is always a good > idea! Particularly right before you expose it to open flame! > > There are safe ways to fill a tank with an inert atmosphere. This *is > not* one of them. I don't know if this really applies, but I'd also heard on the internet (so it must be true) that current cars have such good emissions that the old suicide trick of putting a hose from the exhaust into the window doesn't work any more. If that's true, that would seem to imply that there's still oxygen in the exhaust? Mark From crothfuss at coastalnet.com Fri Apr 30 14:40:22 2010 From: crothfuss at coastalnet.com (crothfuss at coastalnet.com) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank Message-ID: <21874152.1272660022760.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> David, Wayne, You aren't seeing the set-up here. Fuel tank has a filler neck. The exhaust from an idling internal combustion is pumped IN there with a hose. It is allowed to purge all the oxygen inside the tank for a couple minutes through any other outlets available. (fuel lines, tank vents, etc) Now there is a flow of mostly Co2 and water vapor from most modern cars. You can weld a small puncture (a bullet hole, for instance) and get the equipment back in action. Only low pressure exhaust gasses will leak out since you're still forcing a huge volume of exhaust gas in the filler neck from the idling engine. If the alternative is filling the tank with water, I'll be back accomplishing the mission before you have the tank full. Gotto respect the explosive gasses, not fear them. Chuck -----Original Message----- >From: Wayne >Sent: Apr 30, 2010 3:50 PM >To: shop-talk at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank > >On 4/30/2010 2:25 PM, David Scheidt wrote: >>> ...Car exhaust is available and portable. With exhaust pumped >>> into the container to purge the oxygen, you can weld the tank >>> >> Right, because filling a tank with an explosive gas is always a good idea! >> Particularly right before you expose it to open flame! > >I was thinking the same thing. That sounds like a super bad idea. What >happens if you're welding this thin sheet metal and blow a hole through >it and the gas starts leaking out?! > >As far as the "explosive gas" I guess you mean CO? Any car with a >properly functioning fuel injection and catalytic converter(s) should >have nearly zero CO content; ditto for unburned gas or oxygen. So if >you're ever in the mood to kill yourself, don't do the old "car in the >closed garage" trick. It don't work anymore! > >-Wayne From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 15:03:10 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:03:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: <4BDB3485.2010808@xxiii.com> References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4BDB3485.2010808@xxiii.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Wayne wrote: > On 4/30/2010 2:25 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > >> ...Car exhaust is available and portable. With exhaust pumped >>> >>> into the container to purge the oxygen, you can weld the tank >>> >>> Right, because filling a tank with an explosive gas is always a good >> idea! >> Particularly right before you expose it to open flame! >> > > I was thinking the same thing. That sounds like a super bad idea. What > happens if you're welding this thin sheet metal and blow a hole through it > and the gas starts leaking out?! > > As far as the "explosive gas" I guess you mean CO? Any car with a properly > functioning fuel injection and catalytic converter(s) should have nearly > zero CO content; ditto for unburned gas or oxygen. So if you're ever in > the mood to kill yourself, don't do the old "car in the closed garage" > trick. It don't work anymore! yes. CO is flammable at concentrations from about 10 to 80%, and it's capable of very vigorous deflagration or detonation when exposed to oxygen, as when you've finished and are purging the vessel. There are lots of vehicle around that produce substantial amounts of CO (like elderly gasoline engines, diesels in poor tune.) and they tend to be the sort of thing around on farms and workshops where someone would think it would be a good idea. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 15:19:09 2010 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:19:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > I don't know if this really applies, but I'd also heard on the internet (so > it must be true) that current cars have such good emissions that the old > suicide trick of putting a hose from the exhaust into the window doesn't > work any more. If that's true, that would seem to imply that there's still > oxygen in the exhaust? A modern automobile, with functioning catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, and so on, should have water vapor, C02, nitrogen (and some nitrogen oxides), low CO, low oxygen, and low hydrocarbons. (way less O2 than needed to support life). The problem is that, absent an exhaust gas analyzer, you don't have any way of knowing what's in the fumes. A poorly tuned engine can have substantial CO concentrations. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Apr 30 17:17:56 2010 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:17:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <030101cae8bb$5e2c4b50$1a84e1f0$@rr.com> > I don't know if this really applies, but I'd also heard on the internet > (so it must be true) that current cars have such good emissions that > the > old suicide trick of putting a hose from the exhaust into the window > doesn't work anymore. If that's true, that would seem to imply that > there's still oxygen in the exhaust? Not enough to argue about. The "old suicide trick" was not based on lack of oxygen, but presence of carbon monoxide (CO). CO is a cumulative poison, as it binds to your red blood cells in place of oxygen (so they can't carry oxygen through your body). You can literally die of CO poisoning while still breathing air with plenty of oxygen. And one of the early side effects of CO poisoning is unconsciousness, so in theory you will be asleep for the majority of the other effects (headache, nausea, etc.) The thing is, the "old suicide trick" never did work all that well, and with less CO in the exhaust it's even less likely to work. It could still be done, I think, but you're going to have to tolerant some pretty crappy feelings without opening the car door. Probably just as easy to stick your head in a bucket of water and not pull it out. But I believe there is still enough CO in car exhaust to poison you. Although the official standards are in grams per mile (so not applicable at idle), the test limits used for tailpipe sniffers still allow several thousand ppm (0.1% = 1000 ppm). And according to http://biology.about.com/od/molecularbiology/a/carbon_monoxide.htm 800 ppm will kill you within 2-3 hours, and even half of that is "life threatening". Personally, I think I'll go on using water. IMO it's just too hard to tell when a tank is "full" of exhaust instead of air. In fact, you'll effectively never get ALL the air out, as the exhaust mixes with whatever is in the tank and it's the mixture that comes out. Put in one "thankful" of exhaust, you've got 50% air. Put in another, you've got 25% air. Another gives you 12.5%. How much O2 does it actually take to support combustion?? -- Randall From shop at justbrits.com Fri Apr 30 19:07:00 2010 From: shop at justbrits.com (Shop at " Just Brits ") Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:07:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: <030101cae8bb$5e2c4b50$1a84e1f0$@rr.com> References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <030101cae8bb$5e2c4b50$1a84e1f0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <4BDB7EB4.3070801@justbrits.com> << Personally, I think I'll go on using water. >> I'm with you, Randall !! Perhaps the chap that USED to work for a local Midas Shop would also agree. He "was" welding two ]2] 55 "clean" gallon steel barrels together when the residual 'gases' "combined" to form some sort of explosive 'gas'. RIP. Explosion was "felt" for a full block in all directions. Ed PS: Guess who has not welded barrels NOR gas tanks .........for 25 - 30 years nor will ever be doing so again !?! From eltonclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 21:12:39 2010 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 22:12:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: <4BDB7EB4.3070801@justbrits.com> References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <030101cae8bb$5e2c4b50$1a84e1f0$@rr.com> <4BDB7EB4.3070801@justbrits.com> Message-ID: *When we were forced into a fuel tank welding situation at my tractor dealership, we'd turn the steam cleaner stream into the inverted tank and go to lunch! When we'd get back, it would be hot enough to drive off all residual moisture and be ready for welding with no excitement.* On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Shop at " Just Brits " wrote: > << Personally, I think I'll go on using water. >> > > I'm with you, Randall !! > > Perhaps the chap that USED to work for a local Midas > Shop would also agree. He "was" welding two ]2] 55 > "clean" gallon steel barrels together when the residual > 'gases' "combined" to form some sort of explosive 'gas'. > > RIP. > > Explosion was "felt" for a full block in all directions. > > Ed > > PS: Guess who has not welded barrels NOR gas tanks > .........for 25 - 30 years nor will ever be doing so again !?! > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com From jibjib at att.net Fri Apr 30 21:32:19 2010 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:32:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net><030101cae8bb$5e2c4b50$1a84e1f0$@rr.com><4BDB7EB4.3070801@justbrits.com> Message-ID: <260D9C01898E4647B5B3977DCB5B5BFE@hpa1477c> I used a hot air gun, blowing through a metal hose, into a gas tank for two hours. When I could barely touch the metal on the tank because it was so hot, I knew that virtually all of the volatiles had boiled off; at least enough to be sure I was below the Lower Explosive Limit, so I welded away. I toyed with filling the tank with water, but this was easier and neater. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Elton E. (Tony) Clark Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 8:13 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank *When we were forced into a fuel tank welding situation at my tractor dealership, we'd turn the steam cleaner stream into the inverted tank and go to lunch! When we'd get back, it would be hot enough to drive off all residual moisture and be ready for welding with no excitement.* On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Shop at " Just Brits " wrote: > << Personally, I think I'll go on using water. >> > > I'm with you, Randall !! > > Perhaps the chap that USED to work for a local Midas > Shop would also agree. He "was" welding two ]2] 55 > "clean" gallon steel barrels together when the residual > 'gases' "combined" to form some sort of explosive 'gas'. > > RIP. > > Explosion was "felt" for a full block in all directions. > > Ed > > PS: Guess who has not welded barrels NOR gas tanks > .........for 25 - 30 years nor will ever be doing so again !?! > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net From cavanadd at verizon.net Fri Apr 30 23:05:44 2010 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 22:05:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank In-Reply-To: <260D9C01898E4647B5B3977DCB5B5BFE@hpa1477c> References: <25286893.1272649808213.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net><030101cae8bb$5e2c4b50$1a84e1f0$@rr.com><4BDB7EB4.3070801@justbrits.com> <260D9C01898E4647B5B3977DCB5B5BFE@hpa1477c> Message-ID: <4BDBB6A8.4040607@verizon.net> Years ago one of the things I had to do was manage the decommissioning of a few private gas stations, having the tanks dug up and the soil cleaned up. (It was one of the most thankless jobs I have ever had.) DOT regulations required that big holes be cut in the tanks before they could be transported to where ever it was the contractor took them. They put chunks of dry ice in the tanks and when it had all "melted" they used cutting torches to open the tanks up. Jack Brooks wrote: > I used a hot air gun, blowing through a metal hose, into a gas tank for two > hours. When I could barely touch the metal on the tank because it was so > hot, I knew that virtually all of the volatiles had boiled off; at least > enough to be sure I was below the Lower Explosive Limit, so I welded away. > > I toyed with filling the tank with water, but this was easier and neater. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Elton E. (Tony) Clark > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 8:13 PM > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Welding a full tank > > *When we were forced into a fuel tank welding situation at my tractor > dealership, we'd turn the steam cleaner stream into the inverted tank and go > to lunch! When we'd get back, it would be hot enough to drive off all > residual moisture and be ready for welding with no excitement.* > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Shop at " Just Brits " > wrote: > >> << Personally, I think I'll go on using water.>> >> >> I'm with you, Randall !! >> >> Perhaps the chap that USED to work for a local Midas >> Shop would also agree. He "was" welding two ]2] 55 >> "clean" gallon steel barrels together when the residual >> 'gases' "combined" to form some sort of explosive 'gas'. >> >> RIP. >> >> Explosion was "felt" for a full block in all directions. >> >> Ed >> >> PS: Guess who has not welded barrels NOR gas tanks >> .........for 25 - 30 years nor will ever be doing so again !?! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/eltonclark at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jibjib at att.net > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/cavanadd at verizon.net