From arvidj at visi.com Sun Nov 1 05:56:26 2009 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 06:56:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers References: Message-ID: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> Looking at your diagram, I disagee that 'A' must equal 'B'. Assuming you can 'zero' the caliper when the two 'B' jaws are together then the measurements should be as accurate as when you 'zero' the caliper when the two 'A' jaws are together and take a measurement. Note that this is different than saying "when the 'B' jaws are together then the 'A' jaws must also be together", which is what I think you are after. For the previous statements, the term 'together' means a physical means of ensuring a distance of zero between the jaws. Very easy to do in the 'B' case and I do not have a clue about how to do it in the 'A' case - how do you create a hole of size zero to provide the initial reference point for 'A'. And I am not aware of inexpensive "inverted gauge blocks" or "hole gauge blocks" that would allow you to set the 'A' distance at some other reference - such as 1 inch or ... Note that this "zero 'A' does not need to be the same as zero 'B'" applies to the 'C' measurements that are taken off the end of the caliper - the depth measurements. When the 'B' jaws are together the 'post' on the end of the caliper is usually not flush with the end of the caliper body. So I simply put the end of the body on a flat surface, move the readout until the 'post' is physically in contact with the flat surface, zero the readout and go about reading any depths that I need. Note that at no time during the process will the 'A' or the 'B' distance be the same as the 'C' - depth I am measuring, but I don't expect them to be. But the depth measurements will be as accurate as the overall accuracy of the tool. So the problem as I see it is coming up with some type of reference against which 'A' can be set, after which the measurements will be as accurate as measurements taken with 'B' even thought the 'B' distance will not be the same as the 'A' distance. As a kludge to solve the "I need an accurate hole so I can create the reference for 'A'" I grabbed one of the other HF 6 inch calipers I have lying around, closed the 'B' jaws of caliper (2), zero'd the scale, move it until I had 1.000 on the display, tightened the set screw on the top of the display, then measured the distance using the 'A' jaws of caliper (1). The distance was 1.0015, which is interesting but not relevant. I could have zero's the display on caliper (1) at this point and been able to measure things with the 'A' jaws reasonably accurately. And as another side note, in the above experiment, I switched the roles calipers (1) and (2) found setting a 1.000 'B' reading on (1) created a .996 reading on the 'A' of (2). Again interesting but not relevant to making accurate measurements after (2) had been zero'd. In the end, it would be nice if they were made with the precision that a physical zero of 'A' would also be a physical zero of 'B' - your original premise. But what the heck, at less than $10 a piece I have bought several and can make it work for type of measurements that I am doing. Arvid > OK, I have a few of these Calipers and they work great, except that the > indicators arenbt accurate and they are non-adjustable. > > Here is a link to a photo that I put on my website to define the problem > Ibm having. > > > > In the picture, the OD measurement of b Ab should be the exact same as > the > ID measurement of b B.b But they are not. This means that as I measure > a > piston and the cylinder bore, Ibm not getting a good result (the bore is > coming up SMALLER than the piston diameter.) > > These do work great for measurements of the same ID or ID objects however. > > So what I need to find is a way to make sure the calipers are b correctb > before I buy them. > Any suggestions? > > Moose From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 10:33:35 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:33:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> References: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911010933n7c8796f2ke70783a9154fa8dd@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > Looking at your diagram, I disagee that 'A' must equal 'B'. > > Assuming you can 'zero' the caliper when the two 'B' jaws are together then > the measurements should be as accurate as when you 'zero' the caliper when > the two 'A' jaws are together and take a measurement. > > Note that this is different than saying "when the 'B' jaws are together > then the 'A' jaws must also be together", which is what I think you are > after. > > Any caliper where this isn't true is junk. It's true even on my insanely cheap plastic calipers that I keep in the pen jar on my desk. Same for the depth probe. Think about it. Vernier calipers have no way to zero them. All three measurements are read from the same scale. So if one says zero, they all should be at zero. anything else is an inaccurate measure. From jdrush at enter.net Mon Nov 2 00:23:34 2009 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 02:23:34 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers Message-ID: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> What are your favorite hangers for garden tools? I have the gray Suncast organizers http://www.suncast.com/productdisplay.aspx?id=169&pid=61, but they are too inflexible and take up a lot of wall space for the amount of tools they hold. Jon From jdinnis at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 07:07:46 2009 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:07:46 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers In-Reply-To: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> References: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> Message-ID: I got a sweet deal on the Rubermaid FastTrack system starter kit. It is a flexible system, and pretty easy to install. A bit overpriced for what you get, but I have found the stuff on sale several time, and the sale proces are usually quite good. http://www.rubbermaidpro.com/garage.htm On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:23 AM, Rush wrote: > What are your favorite hangers for garden tools? I have the gray Suncast > organizers http://www.suncast.com/productdisplay.aspx?id=169&pid=61, but > they are too inflexible and take up a lot of wall space for the amount of > tools they hold. > > Jon -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 07:40:29 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:40:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers In-Reply-To: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> References: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911020640v49c8e1f7t3ed1f44bec2e206c@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 2:23 AM, Rush wrote: > What are your favorite hangers for garden tools? I have the gray Suncast > organizers http://www.suncast.com/productdisplay.aspx?id=169&pid=61, but > they are too inflexible and take up a lot of wall space for the amount of > tools they hold. > 1"X 4" boards screwed into the studs, with nails to than things from. Cheap. flexible. Put two up, one about 18" or 2' higher. hang handled tools from that, and shorter things like shovels from the other one. If you're really into it, cut out the drywall, and mount the boards flush. (That wouldn't be code most places on a wall that adjoins living space, though.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From arvidj at visi.com Mon Nov 2 07:49:42 2009 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:49:42 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers References: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> <2400a5d40911010933n7c8796f2ke70783a9154fa8dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We will agree to disagree on the "is junk" part. And I believe I did think about it. I came to the "accurate measurements party" pretty late and therefore everything I have is digital. A mechanical vernier caliper may not have any way to set the zero datum but all of my digital ones do. So I have naively set the zero as needed and gone about the business of getting what appear to be accurate measurements - i.e. things fit together when I am done - without any problems. Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: David Scheidt To: Arvid Jedlicka Cc: shop-talk Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Micrometers On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: Looking at your diagram, I disagee that 'A' must equal 'B'. Assuming you can 'zero' the caliper when the two 'B' jaws are together then the measurements should be as accurate as when you 'zero' the caliper when the two 'A' jaws are together and take a measurement. Note that this is different than saying "when the 'B' jaws are together then the 'A' jaws must also be together", which is what I think you are after. Any caliper where this isn't true is junk. It's true even on my insanely cheap plastic calipers that I keep in the pen jar on my desk. Same for the depth probe. Think about it. Vernier calipers have no way to zero them. All three measurements are read from the same scale. So if one says zero, they all should be at zero. anything else is an inaccurate measure. From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Nov 2 08:01:25 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:01:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers In-Reply-To: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> References: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091102095355.01dabf50@cox.net> At 02:23 AM 11/2/2009, Rush wrote: >What are your favorite hangers for garden tools?... I have a finished garage with a room over garage. So I usually just screw a 2x4 to the wall, then use either screw hooks, nails, or dry wall screws for my hangers. Inexpensive, and changeable. I've also made small shelves using a 2x4 pieces, cutting a 45deg angle, counter sinking holes into the 45deg face, and laying strips of plywood on them. I also suspended some shelves from the ceiling. I had to cut some holes in my ceiling drywall and dropped 2x4s from the ceiling, lag bolt 2x4s to the walls, and then using metal 2x4 hangers, made shelves. All my shelves are 4' long by 2' wide. So I get 4 shelves out of a sheet of plywood. I also have a V shaped truss in my attic of the house, and put shelving in the attic. If anyone wants pictures of what I've done, email me and I'll email you some pictures. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From arvidj at visi.com Mon Nov 2 08:43:54 2009 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:43:54 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers References: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> <2400a5d40911020640v49c8e1f7t3ed1f44bec2e206c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: David and I may not agree on calipers but we do agree on wall hangers ;-} > 1"X 4" boards screwed into the studs, with nails to than things from. > Cheap. flexible. > Put two up, one about 18" or 2' higher. hang handled tools from that, and > shorter things like shovels from the other one. If you're really into it, > cut out the drywall, and mount the boards flush. (That wouldn't be code > most places on a wall that adjoins living space, though.) > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Nov 2 08:53:24 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 07:53:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers In-Reply-To: <4AEE88F6.4010105@enter.net> Message-ID: <492288.97170.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> IMHO, all those racks that attempt to hold your tools with some sort of friction or spring tension clip are useless. The PO of my house had put up such a thing (most likely bought from Home Depot), and i got tired of having a rake or shovel come crashing down onto my head if I happened to brush against it while walking by. I ended up getting a rubber maid rack that keeps the tools on the floor. It's one of these: http://www.rubbermaid.com/Category/Pages/SubCategoryLanding.aspx?SubCatId=ToolSportsStorage&CatName=GarageOrganization It sticks out a but more from the wall, but it it stores tools more efficiently, so you have a lot more garage wall free for other things. If you really want to hang things, I would use large, sturdy hooks and/or big nails. You may have to drill some holes in the handles of some of your tools. You should be able to rattle and shake the hanging tools with no chance of anything falling down. Doug --- On Mon, 11/2/09, Rush wrote: > From: Rush > Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers > To: "Shop Talk" > Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 2:23 AM > What are your favorite hangers for > garden tools? I have the gray Suncast organizers http://www.suncast.com/productdisplay.aspx?id=169&pid=61, > but they are too inflexible and take up a lot of wall space > for the amount of tools they hold. > > Jon From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Nov 2 09:08:56 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:08:56 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091102160856735.FOPX4372@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> > A mechanical > vernier caliper may not have any way to set the zero datum > but all of my > digital ones do. Well, so do my dial calipers. Still, it would be a major PITA (and potential source of error) to have to re-zero and then reset to the first measurement in order to transfer an outside to inside measurement (or vice versa). Out of curiosity, I picked up a 2" gauge block & micrometer and checked one of my under-$20 dial calipers against them. The external measurement of the gauge block was right-on, while the internal measurement of the micrometer set to 2.0000" (and checked against the gauge block) read about 1 needle width high, much less than the .001" resolution of the calipers. Probably with a lighter touch, it would have been dead nuts as well. Randall From eric at megageek.com Mon Nov 2 09:13:18 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:13:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers Message-ID: Actually, this is one area that I found that the cheapy method of nails in the wall with a drill to make a hole int he handle is best. Seriously, I have no found a single one of these systems that can store AS much or AS nicely as a well thought out custom system. Here is what I did... Lay all the stuff you want to hang on the wall on the floor. Organize it so it takes up the least amoutn of space. Dont' forget to make use of "dead space" (i.e. a sledgehammer should go next to a pick axe in the space that the pick extends to the side. Once you have everything laid out, lay a 2X4 or a few over the tops of the handles. Now mark and drill the handles and put nails in the board. Hang the board from the wall and place the items on the nails. i recommend labling the nails so you can tell at a glace what tool is missing, or you can put them back in the exact place if you have more than on out at a time. It really is hard to explain (for me) but the process is SUPER simple, dirt cheap, and the best use of space. Moose b Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.b Ralph Waldo Emerson From Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com Mon Nov 2 09:53:46 2009 From: Gil.Fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:53:46 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201DC2D21@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> I use large spike nails or long lag screws with a piece of vinyl tubing slipped over the shaft. The vinyl tubing provides some cushion and extra friction to keep items from slipping off. Gil in Nashville From jem at milleredp.com Mon Nov 2 11:14:03 2009 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:14:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers In-Reply-To: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201DC2D21@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> References: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201DC2D21@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com> Message-ID: <4AEF216B.7050409@milleredp.com> Gil Fuqua wrote: > I use large spike nails or long lag screws with a piece of vinyl tubing > slipped over the shaft. The vinyl tubing provides some cushion and > extra friction to keep items from slipping off. Yeah, if you're hanging something with a handle or other sizeable hole you can put a fender washer or some such over a lagscrew, then a piece of rubber or vinyl tubing over the shank to hold the washer in place against the head of the lagscrew. John. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 11:26:42 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: References: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> <2400a5d40911010933n7c8796f2ke70783a9154fa8dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911021026m1de8daf7v7a8dbbf288f24c0d@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > We will agree to disagree on the "is junk" part. > > And I believe I did think about it. I came to the "accurate measurements > party" pretty late and therefore everything I have is digital. A mechanical > vernier caliper may not have any way to set the zero datum but all of my > digital ones do. So I have naively set the zero as needed and gone about the > business of getting what appear to be accurate measurements - i.e. things > fit together when I am done - without any problems. > > One of the things that I use calipers for is to transfer a measurement from one part to another. I'll measure the size of a hole, and then use the external jaws to mark a piece. I'd throw away any caliper that required me to read the measurement, close the jaws, set the zero point, and then reopen the jaws and set them to a particular measurement, which I'd've forgotten by this point. The guy who taught me to do this (and also how to read a vernier caliper) was a tool maker for decades; it's standard practice when making things where absolute measures aren't important, just that things are the same size. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From arvidj at visi.com Mon Nov 2 11:52:08 2009 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 12:52:08 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers References: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> <2400a5d40911010933n7c8796f2ke70783a9154fa8dd@mail.gmail.com> <2400a5d40911021026m1de8daf7v7a8dbbf288f24c0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E251025CD60442AB686E2162E3E1FCE@behavioral.com> I am aware of some of the nice things that could be done IF the internal and external jaws were exactly the same. But the original task was "measure the bore so piston rings can be ordered" and I still believe that "find something to set a known zero datum and then have at it" was a reasonable procedure for that task and did not require that the jaws be exactly the same. By the way, what are you using for you "standard" for inside measurements? I can see how gage blocks would be used for determining the accuracy of outside and depth measuring tools but do not see a way to use them for testing the accuracy of inside measuring tools. Several kludges come to mind but I though I would as someone with more experience than I. Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: David Scheidt To: Arvid Jedlicka Cc: shop-talk Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Micrometers On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: We will agree to disagree on the "is junk" part. And I believe I did think about it. I came to the "accurate measurements party" pretty late and therefore everything I have is digital. A mechanical vernier caliper may not have any way to set the zero datum but all of my digital ones do. So I have naively set the zero as needed and gone about the business of getting what appear to be accurate measurements - i.e. things fit together when I am done - without any problems. One of the things that I use calipers for is to transfer a measurement from one part to another. I'll measure the size of a hole, and then use the external jaws to mark a piece. I'd throw away any caliper that required me to read the measurement, close the jaws, set the zero point, and then reopen the jaws and set them to a particular measurement, which I'd've forgotten by this point. The guy who taught me to do this (and also how to read a vernier caliper) was a tool maker for decades; it's standard practice when making things where absolute measures aren't important, just that things are the same size. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Nov 2 12:25:54 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40911021026m1de8daf7v7a8dbbf288f24c0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <376277.54033.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> One thing I did not notice in all th previous postings: HOW MUCH inaccuracy are you actually talking about for the HF calipers? Doug --- On Mon, 11/2/09, David Scheidt wrote: > From: David Scheidt > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Micrometers > To: "Arvid Jedlicka" > Cc: "shop-talk" > Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 1:26 PM > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Arvid > Jedlicka > wrote: > > > We will agree to disagree on the "is junk" > part. > > > > And I believe I did think about it. I came to the > "accurate measurements > > party" pretty late and therefore everything I have is > digital. A mechanical > > vernier caliper may not have any way to set the zero > datum but all of my > > digital ones do. So I have naively set the zero as > needed and gone about the > > business of getting what appear to be accurate > measurements - i.e. things > > fit together when I am done - without any problems. > > > > > One of the things that I use calipers for is to transfer a > measurement from > one part to another. I'll measure the size of a hole, > and then use the > external jaws to mark a piece. I'd throw away any > caliper that required me > to read the measurement, close the jaws, set the zero > point, and then reopen > the jaws and set them to a particular measurement, which > I'd've forgotten by > this point. The guy who taught me to do this (and > also how to read a > vernier caliper) was a tool maker for decades; it's > standard practice when > making things where absolute measures aren't important, > just that things are > the same size. > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From marka at maracing.com Mon Nov 2 12:32:57 2009 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:32:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: References: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> <2400a5d40911010933n7c8796f2ke70783a9154fa8dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > We will agree to disagree on the "is junk" part. > > And I believe I did think about it. I came to the "accurate measurements > party" pretty late and therefore everything I have is digital. A > mechanical vernier caliper may not have any way to set the zero datum > but all of my digital ones do. So I have naively set the zero as needed > and gone about the business of getting what appear to be accurate > measurements - i.e. things fit together when I am done - without any > problems. I think the issue here is mostly related to something you touched on... There's no way to zero the ID measuring jaws, like you can with the OD measuring jaws. Because of that, if the jaws aren't machined such that the ID is zero when the OD is zero, if you're trying to transfer measurements (i.e. measuring the inside of a bore and the od of a part that is supposed to fit in the bore), you're pretty well hosed. Bore guages and the like get around that by "zero-ing" to a known dimension with a guage block or a micrometer or something. I suppose you could do something similar with a regular caliper, but I'd tend to think that if you're getting down to the point where it matters and the caliper isn't junk, a caliper isn't the right tool for either measurement. But I'm just a hobbiest, not a pro. Mark From marka at maracing.com Mon Nov 2 12:35:52 2009 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:35:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40911021026m1de8daf7v7a8dbbf288f24c0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <0AA7395BCC394EFC9F80E1C5AD7BF6D4@behavioral.com> <2400a5d40911010933n7c8796f2ke70783a9154fa8dd@mail.gmail.com> <2400a5d40911021026m1de8daf7v7a8dbbf288f24c0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, David Scheidt wrote: >> And I believe I did think about it. I came to the "accurate measurements >> party" pretty late and therefore everything I have is digital. A mechanical >> vernier caliper may not have any way to set the zero datum but all of my >> digital ones do. So I have naively set the zero as needed and gone about the >> business of getting what appear to be accurate measurements - i.e. things >> fit together when I am done - without any problems. >> >> > One of the things that I use calipers for is to transfer a measurement > from one part to another. I'll measure the size of a hole, and then use > the external jaws to mark a piece. I'd throw away any caliper that > required me to read the measurement, close the jaws, set the zero point, > and then reopen the jaws and set them to a particular measurement, which > I'd've forgotten by this point. The guy who taught me to do this (and > also how to read a vernier caliper) was a tool maker for decades; it's > standard practice when making things where absolute measures aren't > important, just that things are the same size. Well for Pete's sake, so would I! "Mark the piece" particularly from the jaws of a caliper, is hardly an accurate operation. I suppose this makes a little more sense as a go/no go measurement though, which could be accurate. mark From jszwed at energykinetics.com Mon Nov 2 13:15:39 2009 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:15:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D12106EDA0424A91617100E3539826@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> >By the way, what are you using for you "standard" for inside measurements? >I can see how gage blocks would be used for determining the accuracy of outside >and depth measuring tools but do not see a way to use them for testing the >accuracy of inside measuring tools. Several kludges come to mind but I though >I would as someone with more experience than I. In the absence of ring gauges one way is to set an outside mike to a certain size, then measure between the mike jaws. Joe Szwed From eltonclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 14:06:51 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:06:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem Message-ID: *My good old shop TV only has a single coax connector as an input which works fine with my VCR which has a coax output.* ** *Now I want to connect a CD/DVD player and my player has the triple red,white and yellow plugins. . . a retailer is trying to sell me a $40 gismo to adapt.* *Is there a simpler-cheaper way to do this* ? Tony From rs1121 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 2 14:39:52 2009 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:39:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Micrometers In-Reply-To: <45D12106EDA0424A91617100E3539826@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> References: <45D12106EDA0424A91617100E3539826@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> Message-ID: <01d201ca5c05$03ae58f0$0b0b0ad0$@net> Yeah but who needs much accuracy when you can always use a bigger hammer? C-Ya Ron From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Nov 2 15:02:27 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:02:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2498F1C0BE3548A7851AA4622F708CC1@jdnet.deere.com> > *Now I want to connect a CD/DVD player and my player has the > triple red,white and yellow plugins. . . a retailer is trying > to sell me a $40 gismo to adapt.* > > *Is there a simpler-cheaper way to do this* ? $40 seems a bit steep, considering that Target seems to have them for under $20: http://tinyurl.com/yl4uax2 You could also check the back of your VCR, as many of them had video inputs which, with the right settings, get copied to the RF (coax) output. In fact, the only cheaper method I can think of is to buy a used VCR at the local thrift shop that has video inputs; or ask around to see if a local friend is throwing one away. Or maybe poke around to see what you can find in a TV with video input. Eg, eBay 280418060127 -- Randall From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Nov 2 15:04:59 2009 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:04:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEF578B.5090309@xxiii.com> Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *My good old shop TV only has a single coax connector as an input which > works fine with my VCR which has a coax output.* > ** > *Now I want to connect a CD/DVD player and my player has the triple > red,white and yellow plugins. . . a retailer is trying to sell me a $40 > gismo to adapt.* Is there a simpler-cheaper way to do this* ? The coax is usually an RF signal with multiple signals -- each channel is modulated onto a different carrier frequency, and you need an old fashioned tuner in the TV to pick your channel. The R/W/Y is one raw audio/video signal, no channel, carrier, or modulation. Which is a good thing if your TV takes it, since it's a cleaner signal. Sounds like they're trying to sell you an outboard modulator. $40 is a little steep. But before you do that, people practically give away nice CRT TVs on CraigsList. I'd look for a new one there. -Wayne From bjzwissler at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 15:27:12 2009 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:27:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEF5CC0.9060909@gmail.com> Get this (Belkin RF Modulator ( F8V3063 )) for $12.95 from Amazon.com. I'm sure others have it cheaper. Ben..... Ben Zwissler bjzwissler at gmail.com Columbus, IN 1966 Triumph TR4A 1973 MG Midget 1980 Triumph TR8 2007 Mazda RX8 2002 Yamaha FZ1 2003 Honda ST1300 On 11/2/2009 4:06 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *My good old shop TV only has a single coax connector as an input which > works fine with my VCR which has a coax output.* > ** > *Now I want to connect a CD/DVD player and my player has the triple > red,white and yellow plugins. . . a retailer is trying to sell me a $40 > gismo to adapt.* > > *Is there a simpler-cheaper way to do this* ? > > Tony > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Nov 2 15:28:52 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:28:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091102172349.01dba5d8@cox.net> At 04:06 PM 11/2/2009, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: >My good old shop TV only has a single coax connector as an input which >works fine with my VCR which has a coax output.* >Now I want to connect a CD/DVD player and my player has the triple red, >white and yellow plugins. . . a retailer is trying to sell me a $40 gismo to adapt. >*Is there a simpler-cheaper way to do this* ? Tony, Depends on where you shop. But the bottom line is that your coaxial input is for Radio Frequency (RF) and the 3 cables is composite video and audio. So you'll have to have something to take the 3 cables as input and give you an RF output. Radio Shack has something for about $28: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103095 That's cheaper than the $40 that you say your retailer is trying to sell you. You might also want to look on eBay, but the shipping will probably kill you. If you have a radio shack, or Audio Video shop, etc around your area, check with them. They may have something for less than $40. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From eltonclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 17:41:32 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:41:32 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: <672343.40120.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <672343.40120.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *Thanks everyone . . I just need to shop better for a modulator!* *Tony* From cavanadd at verizon.net Mon Nov 2 19:50:03 2009 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:50:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEF9A5B.1060801@verizon.net> Dang. You beat me to it. 16d nails with the head cut off, 3/16" hole in the handle. Adjust as necessary. DC eric at megageek.com wrote: > Actually, this is one area that I found that the cheapy method of nails in > the wall with a drill to make a hole int he handle is best. From lane495 at nctc.com Tue Nov 3 05:50:22 2009 From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:50:22 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers References: <4AEF9A5B.1060801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <417504FC701D491EB9FF0E460C6ACC0F@osiris> From: "David C." > Dang. You beat me to it. 16d nails with the head cut off, 3/16" hole in > the handle. Adjust as necessary. > > DC My dear old dad taught me many things. One of which was to drill the holes in the upper handles your shovels, etc. with the hole angling up. Put the nail in at an upward angle also. Hence, when you accidentally bump into them they will not fall off the wall. Patricia From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Nov 3 07:37:33 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 08:37:33 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garden Tool Hangers References: <4AEF9A5B.1060801@verizon.net> <417504FC701D491EB9FF0E460C6ACC0F@osiris> Message-ID: <9FBFBBB53E544487959C14A0BC04B1EE@KARL> Great idea - keeps people from hanging things up backwards too, like with rake tines sticking out. Of course around here, the family seldom puts things like that away at all... Karl > My dear old dad taught me many things. One of which was to drill the > holes in the upper handles your shovels, etc. with the hole angling up. > Put the nail in at an upward angle also. Hence, when you accidentally > bump into them they will not fall off the wall. > > Patricia From eric at megageek.com Tue Nov 3 07:49:44 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Follow up on non-metal belt buckle. Message-ID: Just a quick follow up on my original question on non-metalic belt buckles. I didn't get a chance to make a new belt yet (I'm still planning on it) but I just past through the metal detector at Newark International Airport simply by turning my buckle sideways. I forgot who mentioned that, but I couldn't believe it worked. I'll try it a few more times. Note, this buckle has set off the detectors in the past. Thanks to whoever it was that suggested that! Moose b Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.b Ralph Waldo Emerson From marka at maracing.com Tue Nov 3 08:18:54 2009 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:18:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: <672343.40120.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *Thanks everyone . . I just need to shop better for a modulator!* I don't know where you live, but we've given away fairly modern crt tv's with video/audio inputs. I can't imagine you couldn't find the same thing in your area. Mark From lspector at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 09:20:56 2009 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:20:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167503c10911030820p79b9e761tf31337a1aaddc178@mail.gmail.com> Does your VCR have matchin red/white/yellow inputs? If it does- you may be able to run the DVD player through that, and into the TV. -Larry On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *My good old shop TV only has a single coax connector as an input which > works fine with my VCR which has a coax output.* > ** > *Now I want to connect a CD/DVD player and my player has the triple > red,white and yellow plugins. . . a retailer is trying to sell me a $40 > gismo to adapt.* > > *Is there a simpler-cheaper way to do this* ? > > Tony From eltonclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 09:40:23 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:40:23 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: <167503c10911030820p79b9e761tf31337a1aaddc178@mail.gmail.com> References: <167503c10911030820p79b9e761tf31337a1aaddc178@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Larry Spector wrote: > Does your VCR have matchin red/white/yellow inputs? If it does- you > may be able to run the DVD player through that, and into the TV. > > *I tried that, no luck* From eltonclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 09:45:45 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:45:45 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: <672343.40120.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > I don't know where you live, but we've given away fairly modern crt tv's >> with video/audio inputs. I can't imagine you couldn't find the same thing >> in your area. >> >> *>>A good used 27" CRT with inputs still gets priced at $100 hereabouts >> and my OLD one is still good. . haven't checked Craig's tho'.* From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 10:33:54 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:33:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: <672343.40120.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911030933l12c3a760ya57ba5ccab9a0eef@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > > > Howdy, > > > > I don't know where you live, but we've given away fairly modern crt tv's > >> with video/audio inputs. I can't imagine you couldn't find the same > thing > >> in your area. > >> > >> *>>A good used 27" CRT with inputs still gets priced at $100 hereabouts > >> and my OLD one is still good. . haven't checked Craig's tho'.* > > Really? The thrifts here can't give them away. (Who wants a TV you can't use to watch TV?) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From battmain at yahoo.com Tue Nov 3 11:29:27 2009 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:29:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: References: <167503c10911030820p79b9e761tf31337a1aaddc178@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487748.81353.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Um, if you have those jacks, you simply have to set the tv to the video input. There are various ways to do it. You do not need the modulator. Sometimes you can block those video inputs like you can block certain channels by editing the list. What's the make and model of the tv and I'll see what I can dig up. Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark To: Shop Talk List Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 11:40:23 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Larry Spector wrote: > Does your VCR have matchin red/white/yellow inputs? If it does- you > may be able to run the DVD player through that, and into the TV. > > *I tried that, no luck* From eltonclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 12:53:52 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:53:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV connect problem In-Reply-To: <4AF06941.5090006@telus.net> References: <167503c10911030820p79b9e761tf31337a1aaddc178@mail.gmail.com> <4AF06941.5090006@telus.net> Message-ID: *Wull, I'm gonna try it again . . I missed the "LINE" input bit . . . Thanks!* On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Steve Dillen wrote: > ??? Why didn't this work? The VCR would effectively be your RF > modulator....and should work fine if it's configured as follows: > > 1. DVD player "video/audio out" ---> VCR "video/audio in" > 2. VCR "RF" (coax) out ---> TV "RF" (coax) in > 3. VCR set to "LINE" input. This is the key....otherwise the VCR is > looking for RF signal and is ignoring the line input terminals. > 4. TV tuned to modulated channel as supplied from VCR > > Any VCR should be able to do this -- even one from back in the '80s when > consumer cameras didn't have a tape transport system in them and relied on > composite signals being plugged into an external VCR. > > Steve Dillen > Maple Ridge, BC > > Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Larry Spector wrote: > > > > Does your VCR have matchin red/white/yellow inputs? If it does- you > may be able to run the DVD player through that, and into the TV. > > *I tried that, no luck* > > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > You are subscribed as sdillen at telus.net > > > Shop-talk mailing list > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Nov 4 19:59:51 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:59:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Even more extreme irony: Brand enginnering Message-ID: <911415.34042.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From today's press conference by Chrysler, as reported by the New York times: "Jeep will get three Fiat-based models in 2013, including a new version of the Liberty." Doug --- On Tue, 10/27/09, Doug Braun wrote: > > The new Alfa Romeo would be manufactured in the United > States and be based on the platform of the Jeep Grand > Cherokee, one of Chryslerbs most successful models. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 22:35:18 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:35:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? Message-ID: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> I need a vacuum to suck up (cold) ashes from a wood stove. I'd very much like one that doesn't spew fine ash dust all over the house. Can I just fit a HEPA filter to a shop vac? Can you get a HEPA filter for a small shop vac? I know they exist for full sized ones. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Sun Nov 8 06:14:36 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 07:14:36 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: [mg-tabc] More on ZDDP Message-ID: <00E63CC334C647C9BDA4E43CE59E4625@KARL> Since there's been so much discussion in the recent past about which oils do and don't contain adequate ZDDP, I'm forwarding this brand new post from the MG-TABC list. Karl Hi all. As stated months earlier, I report on the data received during the SEMA convention in Las Vegas 6-9 November. First, there is still much smoke and mirrors about the ZDDP in our flat tappet oils. From the data I received at the SEMA show, it is clear that there is a different specification applied to the oil in 20W 50 oils that most of us use in our MG's. Also applies to 50W and above. The bottom line seems to be that oils with a 20W 50 grade can get away with the SM API donut on the container. Even though that oil will have up to 0.110% ZDDP. The rational is that the 20W 50 oils will not be used in the modern cars requiring 5W 10, 20 30, since those cars warrantees will be void if anything heavier is used. Not a very good case, but the plan. I did talk to many of the current oil suppliers and all had different stories about how much ZDDP was currently in the oils they supplied. All seem to agree that any oil that was shown as "off road" was free to do whatever they wanted. I did find that there was a significant difference between the companies as to the amount of ZDDP they were supplying in the current oils. Castrol stated that their 20W 50 oils will still have 0.110% ZDDP for the coming year, but that will probably change if the requirement drops to 0.06% from the current 0.08% in 2010, as they believe it will. I did find that most of the brand names, Valvoline and Castrol, will still be supplying their motorcycle oils at the SJ/SG levels of ZDDP, re 0.130% for the near future, but that will change with the introduction of cat converters on motorcycles in the near future. I did have an interesting conversation with the Lucas oil people, indicating that they will be introducing an oil that will contain over 0.20% ZDDP for the racing crowd. Not for the flat tappets, but rather for the high bearing loads that come with blown engines. They indicated that the oil will be available in a few months. They said it would be marketed for racing engines, and will be on the market for around $7 per quart. Both Valvoline and Castrol reps said their motorcycle oils still contain all of the ZDDP needed for flat tappets ( 0.13%, or more ) and as long as the SJ/SG was shown on the API donut that would be so. The bottom line is that even with the "lots of ZDDP" on the container, I could find no one that would say that it is more than 0.110%. That is not enough to be safe with flat tappets. I have been promised a complete update of the specs that Castrol is working to and I will pass that along ASAP. Cheers....Bill donker at aol.com From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sun Nov 8 06:20:35 2009 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 05:20:35 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? References: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <417B5C1773244D029D2D3B714203DC6A@B50SS> Hi David, I use a Rigid shop vac to clean out the fireplace, and also have a Pond Vac to clean out the koi pond. The pond vac has a very long intake hose that I connect to the shop vac so that I can set the shop vac outdoors while I vacuum out the fireplace. Works very well as any dust that escapes from the vac is outdoors. I would suggest getting another inlet hose, connect them inline and setting the vac outdoors. best, doug ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XLH 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:35 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? >I need a vacuum to suck up (cold) ashes from a wood stove. I'd very much > like one that doesn't spew fine ash dust all over the house. Can I just > fit > a HEPA filter to a shop vac? Can you get a HEPA filter for a small shop > vac? I know they exist for full sized ones. > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Sun Nov 8 06:47:08 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:47:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com > References: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091108084429.01dbf438@cox.net> At 12:35 AM 11/8/2009, David Scheidt wrote: >I need a vacuum to suck up (cold) ashes from a wood stove. I'd very much >like one that doesn't spew fine ash dust all over the house. Can I just fit >a HEPA filter to a shop vac? Can you get a HEPA filter for a small shop >vac? I know they exist for full sized ones. David, I haven't tried it for ashes, but I have done it for sandblasting dust. Try putting a couple of inches of water in the bottom of your shop vac. Make sure that the deflector is pointed down so the ash is sent into the water. See if that works. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sun Nov 8 07:12:26 2009 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 09:12:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091108141225.GA16198@sackheads.org> On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 12:35:18AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > I need a vacuum to suck up (cold) ashes from a wood stove. I'd very much > like one that doesn't spew fine ash dust all over the house. Can I just fit > a HEPA filter to a shop vac? Can you get a HEPA filter for a small shop > vac? I know they exist for full sized ones. Try to find some drywall bags for your shopvac in addition to a HEPA filter. Used together, they should catch most of the fine dust but the exhaust air might still smell like ash so you might want to try it outside first. I do not recommend that you rely solely on a HEPA filter. The fine ash will clog the filter almost immediately causing the motor to overheat. Many a drywall worker has killed a shopvac this way. JM From fortee9er at yahoo.com Sun Nov 8 09:32:52 2009 From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 08:32:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vacs Message-ID: <952057.90738.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The other day I had to clean some broken glass from the wife's car and used the house vacuum and I thought that it had better suction than my shop vac which is over 10 years old. Maybe it is time to get a new shop vac what do you guys recommend? Thanks Jorge '65 AH 3000 From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 10:56:59 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:56:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? In-Reply-To: <20091108141225.GA16198@sackheads.org> References: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> <20091108141225.GA16198@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911080956v410472c0l6dddc0a614f5908d@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Jimmie Mayfield < mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org > wrote: > On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 12:35:18AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > > I need a vacuum to suck up (cold) ashes from a wood stove. I'd very much > > like one that doesn't spew fine ash dust all over the house. Can I just > fit > > a HEPA filter to a shop vac? Can you get a HEPA filter for a small shop > > vac? I know they exist for full sized ones. > > Try to find some drywall bags for your shopvac in addition to a HEPA > filter. > Used together, they should catch most of the fine dust but the exhaust air > might still smell like ash so you might want to try it outside first. > > Well, the problem is that the ash is inside. The stove is the primary source of heat, so in heating season, i'm not likely to open doors to the outside to snake a hose out to. We've been using an ancient shop vac (it's avocado green, which should date it.) that doesn't use the currently available range of accessories. The filters that are available for it these days suck; it now spews a visible cloud of ash out the vent. Not good for keeping the rest of the house clean. > I do not recommend that you rely solely on a HEPA filter. The fine ash > will > clog the filter almost immediately causing the motor to overheat. Many a > drywall > worker has killed a shopvac this way Thanks for that advice. I'll see what's available. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jblair1948 at cox.net Sun Nov 8 12:13:02 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:13:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vacs In-Reply-To: <952057.90738.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <952057.90738.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091108130508.01dd2e98@cox.net> At 11:32 AM 11/8/2009, Jorge Garcia wrote: >The other day I had to clean some broken glass from the wife's car and used >the house vacuum and I thought that it had better suction than my shop vac >which is over 10 years old. Maybe it is time to get a new shop vac what do you >guys recommend? Jorge, I guess that depends on your garage. I'm usually of the opinon that bigger is better, so when I got a new shop vac a few years ago for Christmass, I got what I concidered a big one, 16 gal., 6.0 Peak HP: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00917761000P?mv=rr But now I find it's actually too big! Trying to store it is a real pain in my 2 car garage. Then trying to move it around, I actually have to take it out the side door of the garage and carry it around to the front of the garage because it is so large. That being said, Sears does offer quite a line of shop vacs, and I'm basically very pleased with it. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jblair1948 at cox.net Sun Nov 8 12:19:11 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:19:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vacs In-Reply-To: <952057.90738.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <952057.90738.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091108141733.01db7538@cox.net> Speaking of shop vacs, a neighbor had a big one like mines. He gave it away and got a smaller wall unit: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00917925000P?vName=Tools&cName=Shop+Vacs+%26+Dust+Collection&sName=Wet-Dry+Vacuums Which if you have some wall space is great. You can leave it hanging on the wall or take it down and carry it to where you need it. My wife is after me to do the same thing. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From kvacek at ameritech.net Sun Nov 8 13:45:49 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:45:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? References: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> <20091108141225.GA16198@sackheads.org> Message-ID: I need a new shop vac, and I'd love one that takes the bags that fit inside and all the dust goes into the bag, creating lots of filter area so it doesn't plug as fast. I assume that's a "drywall bag" ?? What good vacs take those bags ? Karl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jimmie Mayfield" > Try to find some drywall bags for your shopvac in addition to a HEPA > filter. > Used together, they should catch most of the fine dust but the exhaust air > might still smell like ash so you might want to try it outside first From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sun Nov 8 15:25:59 2009 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:25:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop Vacs In-Reply-To: <952057.90738.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <952057.90738.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091108222559.GA42283@sackheads.org> I won't recomend a particular brand since I've only personally used a couple vacs but I'll mention two things: 1) Get a vac that has a 2.5" diameter hose or larger 2) Don't underestimate the amount of space it'll take in the garage. I have a 12-gal vac and while I'm satisfied with it, it's annoying bulky when it's not being used (especially since I'm trying to figure out how to squeeze a jointer into my garage). On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:32:52AM -0800, Jorge Garcia wrote: > The other day I had to clean some broken glass from the wife's car and used the house vacuum and I thought that it had better suction than my shop vac which is over 10 years old. Maybe it is time to get a new shop vac what do you guys recommend? > Thanks > Jorge > '65 AH 3000 From nick at landform.co.uk Sun Nov 8 17:00:45 2009 From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:00:45 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] shop vac for ashes? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40911072135j2cd13ef0qafe7dcc1e8e91d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF75BAD.6070208@landform.co.uk> David Scheidt wrote: > I need a vacuum to suck up (cold) ashes from a wood stove. I'd very much > like one that doesn't spew fine ash dust all over the house. Can I just fit > a HEPA filter to a shop vac? Can you get a HEPA filter for a small shop > vac? I know they exist for full sized ones. > > This sort of thing seems to be widely available http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/ash-can-filter-for-vacuum-cleaners Could be an improvement over the current arrangement? In addition to a drywall filter. Nick Brearley From jamesf at groupwbench.org Mon Nov 9 08:28:15 2009 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:28:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-vac $.02 Message-ID: I have a Ridgid, 4.5 HP I believe. It has a sheetrock filter and other than an initial puff of dust after removing the filter for cleaning (done upside down and some dust gets in the motor) it runs clean. However, it is LOUD. And suction isn't super fantastic. It may be better with a regular filter, but there's always some sheetrock dust where I am... A friend has a WAP. German. It will, impressively quietly, suck the chrome off a trailer hitch. Spendy though. He just had to replace the motor, $250. But after thinking about it for a while, he decided it was worth it, given how long he'd had it, and how often he uses it. Unlike the Ridgid, the vacuum airflow does not go through the motor. jim From chad at linuxeg.com Mon Nov 9 08:58:22 2009 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: Re: ZDDP in Rotella T] Message-ID: <4AF83C1E.3010906@linuxeg.com> From chad at linuxeg.com Mon Nov 9 10:32:15 2009 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: ZDDP in Rotella T]] Message-ID: <4AF8521F.1080109@linuxeg.com> /z5iL0i: Permission denied From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Nov 9 11:33:14 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:33:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-vac $.02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Unlike the Ridgid, the vacuum airflow does not go through the motor. WTF? Even my cheap plastic Sears (not Craftsman) unit doesn't run suction air through the motor! Dust even from common materials like flour can be very explosive and vacuum cleaner motors emit sparks. -- Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Nov 9 12:28:00 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:28:00 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-vac $.02 References: Message-ID: My 1970 Dayton (Grainger) shop vac runs some air through the motor - the main airstream is exhausted just below the elevated case of the motor, and most of it spreads out radially, but a bit is drawn through the motor itself for cooling. Karl >> Unlike the Ridgid, the vacuum airflow does not go through the motor. > > WTF? Even my cheap plastic Sears (not Craftsman) unit doesn't run suction > air through the motor! Dust even from common materials like flour can be > very explosive and vacuum cleaner motors emit sparks. > > -- Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Nov 10 09:24:56 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:24:56 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: [mg-tabc] More on ZDDP Message-ID: <586EC1E1AA244D218BB8D696D6E96B79@KARL> More ZDDP data from the MG-TABC list 3000 SW 4th Avenue, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33315  Phone 954-779-3600, Fax 954-779-3029 www.scorpionracingproducts.com Scorpion Racing Products ZDDP Guidelines for Motor Oil Selection The most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP contains both zinc and phosphorus components working together to provide anti-wear protection and is most important during cam break-in procedures. The American Petroleum Institute (API) in recent years has mandated the reduction of phosphorus to extend catalytic converter life, however reducing the parts per million (ppm) of phosphorus in ZDDP also reduces the ppm of zinc in motor oil which can cause increased wear in engines. Gasoline motor oil history: API service classification SH motor oils were the last gasoline motor oils without minimum phosphorus level regulation. Phosphorus/Zinc levels in these old oils ranged from 1400 to 1600 ppm and provided good anti-wear protection. In 1997, the API first regulated Phosphorus levels in gasoline engine oils to a maximum 1000 ppm for API service classification SJ. The most current API service classification for gasoline oil is SM, and was implemented in 2004. The API requires a minimum phosphorus level for SM motor oils of 600 ppm and a maximum of 800 ppm. Again, these lower phosphorus levels bring with it lower zinc levels, increased wear and are not recommended for Scorpion Racing Products break-in procedures. Diesel motor oil history: Prior to 2007, unlike gasoline motor oils, diesel motor oil phosphorus levels were not regulated by the API. The higher level of phosphorus and associated zinc level of diesel oils over gasoline oils provided a good alternative for engine builders and racers. However, in 2007, the API implemented a new diesel classification called CJ-4, which regulates the amount of phosphorus to 1200 ppm maximum and reduces the amount of anti-wear performance from previous oils. One commonly used diesel motor oil used for high performance engines and cam break-in was Shell Rotella. However, like most other modern diesel motor oils, Rotellas zinc level had to decrease in accordance with the new CJ-4 API specification and is now only 1016 ppm. Any motor oil with the API Starburst on the label should not be used for cam break-in. After break-in, these oils should be used with an additive such as Scorpion Racing Products Xtreme Break-In Lube & Oil Additive (part # SRPXL8-1) at every oil change. Eight fluid ounces of Scorpion Racing Products Xtreme Break-In Lube & Oil Additive (part # SRPXL8-1) will add 400 ppm of Phosphorus to 5 quarts of motor oil. It is okay to use as an additive after cam break-in and it is compatible with most current synthetics. Caution: For good catalytic converter life, vehicles produced from 1992 through 1996 (API SH) can use oil with phosphorus levels of 1200 ppm maximum. Vehicles produced from 1997 through 2003 (API SJ and SL) can use oil with phosphorus levels of 1000 ppm maximum. Vehicles produced from 2004 and newer (API SM) are limited to 800 ppm phosphorus. For vehicles NOT equipped with catalytic converters, phosphorus levels are not limited. This allows for high performance oils such as race oils to contain a higher level of phosphorus/zinc anti-wear additive. Scorpion Racing Products recommends phosphorus/zinc (ZDDP) levels of 1200 to 1600 for good wear protection. Below are some common oils with zinc and phosphorus levels. Manufacturer Zinc (ppm) Phosphorus (ppm) AMSOIL RD-20 1575 1424 AMSOIL RD-30 1575 1424 AMSOIL RD-50 1575 1424 Brad Penn race oil 20W-50 1500 1400 Joe Gibbs XP-5 20W-50 1215 1064 Kendall GT-1 SAE 50 1131 940 Shell Rotella T 1016 958 From cak at dimebank.com Tue Nov 10 11:53:05 2009 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:53:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: [mg-tabc] More on ZDDP In-Reply-To: <586EC1E1AA244D218BB8D696D6E96B79@KARL> References: <586EC1E1AA244D218BB8D696D6E96B79@KARL> Message-ID: <4AF9B691.4010908@dimebank.com> Karl, Do these numbers that you're passing along come from the manufacturer, or from someone who's taking oil that they purchased and measuring it? The most comprehensive discussion/resource I've found about this topic is from Chuck Navarro of LN Engineering, who's been tracking this for a couple of years and has contracted with an independent lab to do actual measurements. The real problem here is keeping up with how quickly the manufacturers change their formulations! http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html Best, chris From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Nov 10 13:34:51 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:34:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: [mg-tabc] More on ZDDP References: <586EC1E1AA244D218BB8D696D6E96B79@KARL> <4AF9B691.4010908@dimebank.com> Message-ID: <6EA5DCDEE75E4388953173A20BE729CB@KARL> Chris, I really don't know - I'm passing on info from another list, unedited and unchecked. The last set apparently came from the website linked at the beginning of the message. I fully agree with you that it's a moving target, and I personally wouldn't take any info like this as either gospel or current, whether it's from the manufacturers or from lab tests of product purchased at retail. It's just an indication of what was typical for those specific oils at some time, perhaps recently or perhaps not. What I did find interesting, however, was the historical info about when the standards changed and the PPM limits that were imposed at various points. We've been using too little zinc in our old-car oils for years and only in the past couple of years has it become widely discussed. Karl > Karl, > > Do these numbers that you're passing along come from the manufacturer, or > from someone who's taking oil that they purchased and measuring it? From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 15:41:37 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:41:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: [mg-tabc] More on ZDDP In-Reply-To: <6EA5DCDEE75E4388953173A20BE729CB@KARL> References: <586EC1E1AA244D218BB8D696D6E96B79@KARL> <4AF9B691.4010908@dimebank.com> <6EA5DCDEE75E4388953173A20BE729CB@KARL> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911101441k7955517bo3189dad67dd36369@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > Chris, I really don't know - I'm passing on info from another list, > unedited and unchecked. The last set apparently came from the website > linked at the beginning of the message. I fully agree with you that it's a > moving target, and I personally wouldn't take any info like this as either > gospel or current, whether it's from the manufacturers or from lab tests of > product purchased at retail. It's just an indication of what was typical > for those specific oils at some time, perhaps recently or perhaps not. > > What I did find interesting, however, was the historical info about when > the standards changed and the PPM limits that were imposed at various > points. We've been using too little zinc in our old-car oils for years and > only in the past couple of years has it become widely discussed. And, in the opinion of a friend of mine (a professional tribologist, does work on lubrication failure), you're better off not worrying about it too much. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From chad at linuxeg.com Tue Nov 10 15:41:39 2009 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:41:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] ZDDP Message-ID: <4AF9EC23.1060606@linuxeg.com> From jibjib at att.net Tue Nov 10 17:40:47 2009 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:40:47 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: [mg-tabc] More on ZDDP In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40911101441k7955517bo3189dad67dd36369@mail.gmail.com> References: <586EC1E1AA244D218BB8D696D6E96B79@KARL><4AF9B691.4010908@dimebank.com><6EA5DCDEE75E4388953173A20BE729CB@KARL> <2400a5d40911101441k7955517bo3189dad67dd36369@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And, in the opinion of a friend of mine (a professional tribologist, does work on lubrication failure), you're better off not worrying about it too much. -- David Scheidt David, Even in the case of flat tappet engines? Jack From cak at dimebank.com Tue Nov 10 18:53:44 2009 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: [mg-tabc] More on ZDDP Message-ID: <200911110153.nAB1ri4T008196@moose.dimebank.com> > And, in the opinion of a friend of mine (a professional tribologist, does > work on lubrication failure), you're better off not worrying about it too > much. Depends on the engine. The Porsche guys are definitely seeing failures that lead back to inaddequate ZDDP; that's what got Chuck interested in the problem. From strovato at optonline.net Fri Nov 13 17:57:39 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:57:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ladybugs (shop related) Message-ID: <0KT2001YSR5A8NP0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Eric, I imagine you've probably dealt with this by now. When you posted this, I fired off this email to the NJ DEP: A property in New Jersey has been inundated with ladybugs. I have read about ways to address this. I am frequently told that you can't kill them because they are protected by law. While I have no intention of initiating a major ladybug genocide, I would like to know if this is actually true and what law or regulation it is that states this. Thank you. As the wheels of government agencies turn rather slowly, today I finally received this reply: Steve, the ladybugs you refer to are asian ladybugs. There is no law preventing you from destroying them. I use regular household bug spray. Check the web for further information. This came from from Larry Herrighty So, if another plague of ladybugs should occur, you have official permission to dispatch them as you see fit. Of course, in your shop, I would expect maybe inchworms. Wouldn't that be more appropriate? -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 04:30 PM 10/22/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: >OK, so I just got back from New Orleans and I found that ladybugs moved >into my brand new building. Thousands of them. > >It's also "illegal" to kill them. (but I don't mind if I have to) But >this means that I can't find poisons or such for them. > >So, what's the best way to get rid of these pests? From eric at megageek.com Fri Nov 13 18:09:12 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:09:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ladybugs (shop related) In-Reply-To: <0KT2001YSR5A8NP0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the follow up. I did deal with it a little bit. I put an add on "freecycle" and I have about 3 people come and suck them up, with a bunch more wanting to come back in the spring when it warms up (I have no idea where they go when it gets cold.) I will hold on to this email, and I will look for more "permeant" ways to deal with these invaders! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson Steven Trovato 11/13/2009 20:04 To eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Ladybugs (shop related) Eric, I imagine you've probably dealt with this by now. When you posted this, I fired off this email to the NJ DEP: A property in New Jersey has been inundated with ladybugs. I have read about ways to address this. I am frequently told that you can't kill them because they are protected by law. While I have no intention of initiating a major ladybug genocide, I would like to know if this is actually true and what law or regulation it is that states this. Thank you. As the wheels of government agencies turn rather slowly, today I finally received this reply: Steve, the ladybugs you refer to are asian ladybugs. There is no law preventing you from destroying them. I use regular household bug spray. Check the web for further information. This came from from Larry Herrighty So, if another plague of ladybugs should occur, you have official permission to dispatch them as you see fit. Of course, in your shop, I would expect maybe inchworms. Wouldn't that be more appropriate? -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 04:30 PM 10/22/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: >OK, so I just got back from New Orleans and I found that ladybugs moved >into my brand new building. Thousands of them. > >It's also "illegal" to kill them. (but I don't mind if I have to) But >this means that I can't find poisons or such for them. > >So, what's the best way to get rid of these pests? From eric at megageek.com Mon Nov 16 07:10:44 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:10:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) Message-ID: OK, I know we have beat the horse to death on this topic (sorry for that refrence, Tim), but I have a final question... I got a $150 gift certificate for FarmTek (for coming in as a runner up in their contest for the best use of their buiilding this year. Here is a link to the contest in case you are interested... ) Anyway, back to the question, since I have been planning on finalyl putting a more perment solution to air lines in my shop, I thought it would be great to use the certificate on air lines. Here is the problem, I can't tell if there tubing is approprate for air lines. Now, I've seen alot of discussion on using copper, iron, or PEX tubing for home compressor situations. Does anyone have any final words on it? Also, is there any problem making it a mix of the above? Farmtek on sells, this tubing for radiant floors. Could I use this stuff in the 1" diameter for most of the tubing? (with the "Shark Bite" connectors) Or, is there piping on this page that could be used? I can't tell what most of that piping is. Maybe someone in the biz can let me know if want of this will work. Thanks in advance! Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson From pat at hornesystemstx.com Mon Nov 16 07:58:00 2009 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:58:00 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B016878.3020800@hornesystemstx.com> Moose, The first tubing is only rated for 100PSI. I would expect your compressor to run higher pressure than that. The second pipe is not what you are looking for, it is tubing similar to what fences and green houses are made out of., not something that is intended to carry gas or liquid. FWIW, I plumbed my air system with copper pipe. That was about 10 years ago when copper was much cheaper. If I were to do it today I'd probably go with steel pipe, either galvanized (have to filter for flakes at the outlets) or black (need to watch for rust and drain often). Another thing I tried when planning my air was to hit the scrap metal places to see if any had large pipe, say, 6" to 10" that could be used in the main lines. I know you don't need that big a pipe, but it adds storage capacity and used pipe is cheaper than similar capacity storage tanks. Peace, Pat Thusly spake eric at megageek.com, On 11/16/2009 8:10 AM: > OK, I know we have beat the horse to death on this topic (sorry for that > refrence, Tim), but I have a final question... > > I got a $150 gift certificate for FarmTek (for coming in as a runner up in > their contest for the best use of their buiilding this year. Here is a > link to the contest in case you are interested... > ) > > > Anyway, back to the question, since I have been planning on finalyl putting > a more perment solution to air lines in my shop, I thought it would be > great to use the certificate on air lines. > > Here is the problem, I can't tell if there tubing is approprate for air > lines. > > Now, I've seen alot of discussion on using copper, iron, or PEX tubing for > home compressor situations. Does anyone have any final words on it? Also, > is there any problem making it a mix of the above? > > Farmtek on sells, this tubing for radiant floors. > > Could I use this stuff in the 1" diameter for most of the tubing? (with > the "Shark Bite" connectors) > > Or, is there piping on this page that could be used? > > > > I can't tell what most of that piping is. Maybe someone in the biz can let > me know if want of this will work. > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Moose > "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational > being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph > Waldo Emerson > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From mbarre at juno.com Mon Nov 16 10:50:35 2009 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:50:35 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) Message-ID: <20091116.125035.9911.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> I know some folks don't like it, but since I read some of the debate I have been watching how various places have handled their air and I continue to see the vast majority here in GA with PVC. That includes garages, shops and light manufacturing. I used it in my shop and haven't had any problems. Are there any regulatory or OSHA prohibitions? Matt eric at megageek.com, On 11/16/2009 8:10 AM: > Now, I've seen alot of discussion on using copper, iron, or PEX tubing for > home compressor situations. Does anyone have any final words on it? Also, > is there any problem making it a mix of the above? > ____________________________________________________________ Hotel Hotel pics, info and virtual tours. Click here to book a hotel online. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=nCSQffKeaeAuAFdoc8jnjgAAJ1Bdm0m GPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATRAAAAAA= From mikey at b2systems.com Mon Nov 16 12:03:15 2009 From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:03:15 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <20091116.125035.9911.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> References: <20091116.125035.9911.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <1258398195.16445.4.camel@WebBrowser> http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html PVC is not safe, kind of like flying in airplanes people do it everyday and consider it safe until one crashes, people plumb air lines with PVC everyday and because they have no problems they consider it safe, ITS NOT. mike On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 17:50 +0000, Matt wrote: > I know some folks don't like it, but since I read some of the debate I have > been watching how various places have handled their air and I continue to see > the vast majority here in GA with PVC. That includes garages, shops and light > manufacturing. I used it in my shop and haven't had any problems. > > Are there any regulatory or OSHA prohibitions? > > Matt > > eric at megageek.com, On 11/16/2009 8:10 AM: > > > > Now, I've seen alot of discussion on using copper, iron, or PEX tubing for > > home compressor situations. Does anyone have any final words on it? Also, > > is there any problem making it a mix of the above? From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 12:04:36 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:04:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <20091116.125035.9911.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> References: <20091116.125035.9911.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911161104g1c295e5ci6274878310de65a9@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Matt wrote: > I know some folks don't like it, but since I read some of the debate I have > been watching how various places have handled their air and I continue to > see > the vast majority here in GA with PVC. That includes garages, shops and > light > manufacturing. I used it in my shop and haven't had any problems. > > Are there any regulatory or OSHA prohibitions? > > Hell yes. PVC pipe is not allowed for above ground transport of compressed gases, unless you put it in a conduit that will completely contain the explosion. (and protect the pipe from being shattered. ) http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20202 (A 5(a)(1) violation is usually a fine and required corrective action (i.e. replace the air lines with something safe), but depending on what else you've done to piss the inspector off, he can tell you not to use any compressed air on the premises until he's satisfied you do it safely. And when someone is injured because the pipes blow up, it's a slam dunk for their civil case against you.) there are plastic pipes that are approved for compressed air use. They cost a whole lot more than PVC (as much as copper, I think), but they're easier to install, and are resistant to various contaminants, so they have their place. Eric: whatever piping you use, lay the system out properly. The best practice is a loop, with some slope to one corner. Ideally, that's also where your feeder riser is, so that condensate drains towards the compressor. You should feed the middle of the riser, so you can have space below the compressor for condensate and sludge and scale to accumulate, with a valve to allow you to drain. Take your drops from the top of the loop, so that they don't catch condensate running back to the riser. Put a T- fitting towards the end of the drop, and use the leg of the t for the fittings. Put a valve past the T to allow the drop to be drained. Yes, this requires more materials, but not that much, and you'll have cleaner, drier air and better results because of it. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From pat at hornesystemstx.com Mon Nov 16 12:15:18 2009 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:15:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <1258398195.16445.4.camel@WebBrowser> References: <20091116.125035.9911.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> <1258398195.16445.4.camel@WebBrowser> Message-ID: <4B01A4C6.2090203@hornesystemstx.com> If the PVC is fully enclosed in a wall or ceiling, and any pipe that comes out into the open was metal, I'd consider it protected, but in a shop where the pipes are exposed, and can get hit or stressed, I wouldn't consider using it. PVC can break into many small pieces when it is compromised, which is something I am not willing to chance, even when it is in my shop where I am the only one working. Peace, Pat Thusly spake mike rambour, On 11/16/2009 1:03 PM: > http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html > > PVC is not safe, kind of like flying in airplanes people do it everyday > and consider it safe until one crashes, people plumb air lines with PVC > everyday and because they have no problems they consider it safe, ITS > NOT. > > mike > > > On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 17:50 +0000, Matt wrote: > >> I know some folks don't like it, but since I read some of the debate I have >> been watching how various places have handled their air and I continue to see >> the vast majority here in GA with PVC. That includes garages, shops and light >> manufacturing. I used it in my shop and haven't had any problems. >> >> Are there any regulatory or OSHA prohibitions? >> >> Matt >> >> eric at megageek.com, On 11/16/2009 8:10 AM: >> >> >> >>> Now, I've seen alot of discussion on using copper, iron, or PEX tubing for >>> home compressor situations. Does anyone have any final words on it? Also, >>> is there any problem making it a mix of the above? >>> > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Nov 16 14:38:18 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:38:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> At 09:10 AM 11/16/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: >I got a $150 gift certificate for FarmTek (for coming in as a runner up in >their contest for the best use of their buiilding this year. .... >Anyway, back to the question, since I have been planning on finalyl putting >a more perment solution to air lines in my shop, I thought it would be >great to use the certificate on air lines.... >Now, I've seen alot of discussion on using copper, iron, or PEX tubing for >home compressor situations. Does anyone have any final words on it? Also, >is there any problem making it a mix of the above? Moose, I can't say that this is the "final" word on the subject, but I've been been told NOT to use PVC. A friend had his commercial shop plumbed in PVC and it exploded. Luckily it was a pretty tall building and now one got hurt. I've also been told not to use copper. However, another friend has his garage done in copper and so far hasn't had any problems. When I did my garage, I used black pipe. The draw back to it is having to have a thread cutter. This allowed my to just buy something like 6 or 8 10' sticks, and elbows. Then we cut everything to fit. This brings the cost way down. Luckily I had a friend that works construction so he was able to bring over the pipe vice, the thread cutter and dies, and a porta-band (portable band saw) to cut the pipe. Knowing your connections, if you don't already have a die and wrench for it, you can probably borrow one. Same for the porta-band or a good band saw. The Black pipe was actually pretty easy to work with given the correct tools. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jem at milleredp.com Mon Nov 16 14:52:34 2009 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:52:34 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <4B01A4C6.2090203@hornesystemstx.com> References: <20091116.125035.9911.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> <1258398195.16445.4.camel@WebBrowser> <4B01A4C6.2090203@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <4B01C9A2.9030004@milleredp.com> Pat Horne wrote: > If the PVC is fully enclosed in a wall or ceiling, and any pipe that > comes out into the open was metal, I'd consider it protected, but in a > shop where the pipes are exposed, and can get hit or stressed, I > wouldn't consider using it. I'm not sure if PVC work-hardens from the pressurization cycles. I know it doesn't react well to UV exposure. I'd never use Sch40 PVC in a pressurized-gas environment. I suppose Sch80 might be a different story - I used Sch80 PVC for the water supply to our house and to all the pre-valve sprinkler piping, the bldg dept here does not permit metal in the ground - but it's harder to work with and considerably more expensive - more expensive than copper IIRC. There's one stretch of exposed outdoor Sch80 PVC to the fire sprinkler valve at our house, the building guy made me paint it with a paint labeled for UV resistance. My garage and shop are plumbed in copper. I have, like everyone else that puts such things inside the walls during construction or remodel, found that there were places I needed a drop (like the top of the lift, for the lock release) and didn't have one and ended up running pipe on the wall afterward (I also mounted my compressor way up on the wall in the garage - with an outlet for it up there - but didn't switch the outlet - so ended up running a piece of wiremold down the wall for a switch box. I did, however, put switches in the lift outlet circuits, which now get used almost exclusively when accidentally bumped and I can't figure out why the lift doesn't work. Live and learn.) Otherwise, the only bad thing about the piping (and this is true of my 220V wiring too) is that I should have run three or four more drops from the shop around the outside walls of the house. PVC can break into many small pieces when it > is compromised, which is something I am not willing to chance, even when > it is in my shop where I am the only one working. > > Peace, > Pat > > Thusly spake mike rambour, On 11/16/2009 1:03 PM: >> http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html >> >> PVC is not safe, kind of like flying in airplanes people do it everyday >> and consider it safe until one crashes, people plumb air lines with PVC >> everyday and because they have no problems they consider it safe, ITS >> NOT. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 17:50 +0000, Matt wrote: >> >>> I know some folks don't like it, but since I read some of the debate >>> I have >>> been watching how various places have handled their air and I >>> continue to see >>> the vast majority here in GA with PVC. That includes garages, shops >>> and light >>> manufacturing. I used it in my shop and haven't had any problems. >>> >>> Are there any regulatory or OSHA prohibitions? >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> eric at megageek.com, On 11/16/2009 8:10 AM: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Now, I've seen alot of discussion on using copper, iron, or PEX >>>> tubing for >>>> home compressor situations. Does anyone have any final words on >>>> it? Also, >>>> is there any problem making it a mix of the above? >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Nov 16 14:55:03 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:55:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> Message-ID: <9B48219C7A444897A4C0D30E096D20C2@jdnet.deere.com> > The Black pipe was actually pretty easy to work with given > the correct tools. And not all that bad even without them. I've been using an antique ratcheting hand threader & roller-type pipe cutter (found at a yard sale for $5 each) which will get the job done. As an added bonus, you can skip your upper body workout at the gym this week! -- Randall From jem at milleredp.com Mon Nov 16 15:11:26 2009 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:11:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> Message-ID: <4B01CE0E.3000506@milleredp.com> > I can't say that this is the "final" word on the subject, but I've been > been told NOT to use PVC. I understand and agree with the reasons for this. > I've also been told not to use copper. However, another friend has his > garage done in copper and so far hasn't had any problems. Type L ('blue', normal middle-thickness pipe) copper is OSHA-approved for compressed air and it's what I used. Type M ('red', the thin stuff) is not. All the same rules about sloping horizontal runs and providing drains still apply. > When I did my garage, I used black pipe. I used black pipe for the gas piping in our house. I didn't have threading or cutting tools here but I got very friendly with the guys in the back of the OSH a mile away (some were far better than others, I ended up teaching a couple of 'em what to do...) When we did our remodel I added up every electric load we might ever have in the house, including provision for some machine tools out in the shop, did the appropriate load-factor derating and handed it to the PGandE guy and he gave us a 320-amp service. I did the same for the gas service, including a hot-tub heater, outdoor kitchen, two tankless water heaters, etc etc etc. and we ended up with a 1 1/4in meter and supply. Don't have the Bridgeport yet, but I'm really glad we've got the big electric service. Never done the hot-tub or the backyard patio heaters but it's good to have the capacity if the wife commands. > The Black pipe was actually pretty easy to work with given the correct > tools. I'd rather solder copper... John. From rs1121 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 16 15:15:31 2009 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:15:31 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> Message-ID: <024401ca670a$4fe0d8f0$efa28ad0$@net> I just use rubber surgical tubing! It gets about 5" in diameter under pressure. C-Ya Ron Schmittou Ron_S at agps.us Office (972) 359-1787 Cell (214) 862-1871 -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John T. Blair Moose, I can't say that this is the "final" word on the subject, but I've been been told NOT to use PVC. A friend had his commercial shop plumbed in PVC and it exploded. Luckily it was a pretty tall building and now one got hurt. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:18:55 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:18:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911161418v18d8bf41p59c2c3ad46fade4a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:38 PM, John T. Blair wrote: > > > I can't say that this is the "final" word on the subject, but I've been > been told > NOT to use PVC. A friend had his commercial shop plumbed in PVC and it > exploded. Luckily it was a pretty tall building and now one got hurt. > > I've also been told not to use copper. However, another friend has his > garage > done in copper and so far hasn't had any problems. > > When I did my garage, I used black pipe. The draw back to it is having to > have > a thread cutter. This allowed my to just buy something like 6 or 8 10' > sticks, > and elbows. Then we cut everything to fit. This brings the cost way down. > > Luckily I had a friend that works construction so he was able to bring over > the > pipe vice, the thread cutter and dies, and a porta-band (portable band saw) > to cut the pipe. Knowing your connections, if you don't already have a die > and wrench for it, you can probably borrow one. Same for the porta-band or > a good > band saw. > > The Black pipe was actually pretty easy to work with given the correct > tools. > > My local hardware store will cut and thread pipe for free if you buy it from them. I think the big box places do too. (I know the HD here has the equipment for it. They might charge a bit.) For the number of cuts needed in a home shop, that's not an unreasonable way to go. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From arvidj at visi.com Mon Nov 16 15:36:02 2009 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:36:02 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> <4B01CE0E.3000506@milleredp.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Miller" >> The Black pipe was actually pretty easy to work with given the correct >> tools. > > I'd rather solder copper... A +1 on the "rather solder copper" than work with threaded pipe. Had started with threaded connections and discovered it was difficult for me to get a non-leaking connection at 175 psi. I was finally able to get it to go with Teflon paste - threw the Teflon tape back in the toolbox to use for water connections. Anyway, switched to 1", 3/4" and 1/2" "L" copper and it went much more smoothly after that. Arvid From jem at milleredp.com Mon Nov 16 16:17:16 2009 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:17:16 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> <4B01CE0E.3000506@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <4B01DD7C.5070303@milleredp.com> >> I'd rather solder copper... > > A +1 on the "rather solder copper" than work with threaded pipe. Had > started with threaded connections and discovered it was difficult for me > to get a non-leaking connection at 175 psi. I was finally able to get it > to go with Teflon paste - threw the Teflon tape back in the toolbox to > use for water connections. Anyway, switched to 1", 3/4" and 1/2" "L" > copper and it went much more smoothly after that. The thing to remember about black iron pipe is that it's sold mostly for gas pipe, and gas service is 0.5psi, and in gas service it's pressure-tested at something like 15psi, and most of the hardware-store-grade fittings out there come from Shenzhen Rat Trap and Foundry (1999) Ltd. these days; thread tolerances are spectacularly variable. Yeah, don't EVER bother with the tape, in gas service you've got to use the yellow stuff, for air I'd use the Loctite PST and a BIG, BIG wrench. With my copper setup the biggest problem I've got is leaky quick-connect couplers. Install them to point up, not down, so crud won't accumulate in them and prevent them from closing properly... John. From jem at milleredp.com Mon Nov 16 16:22:37 2009 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:22:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <4B01DD7C.5070303@milleredp.com> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091116162704.01d930d8@cox.net> <4B01CE0E.3000506@milleredp.com> <4B01DD7C.5070303@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <4B01DEBD.2070109@milleredp.com> > Yeah, don't EVER bother with the tape, in gas service you've got to use > the yellow stuff, for air I'd use the Loctite PST and a BIG, BIG wrench. ...and sometimes the guys at OSH or HD who don't know what they're doing will leave you with a big long thread where the end is cut/tapered so far that it rattles loose in the fitting, and you'll end up firing up the abrasive cutoff saw or angle grinder to cut a chunk off the threaded end so that the tapered thread will seat snugly in the fitting. Which leaves the pipe 1/4in shorter than you'd measured for... John. From jibjib at att.net Mon Nov 16 18:25:24 2009 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:25:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing a shop (it's that time of the year again) In-Reply-To: <4B016878.3020800@hornesystemstx.com> References: <4B016878.3020800@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <72F72B5BAAFE4DDD9370BB200974E049@hpa1477c> Pat wrote: Another thing I tried when planning my air was to hit the scrap metal places to see if any had large pipe, say, 6" to 10" that could be used in the main lines. I know you don't need that big a pipe, but it adds storage capacity and used pipe is cheaper than similar capacity storage tanks. I've done this in industrial applications where I needed bursts of air and I was a long way from the compressor. We'd go from a 1 or 2 inch line to 8 inch diameter x 6-10 feet long section, right next to our actuator and it would perform great. Without the added "Accumulator" the actuator would move quite slowly. Jack From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Nov 17 06:12:21 2009 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:12:21 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement Message-ID: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> my wood frame windows are nearly 20 years old and are starting to look really bad... I paint every three-four years and I hate window painting !! Anyone had any good/bad experience with Window World or any of the other dealers... want to go with a full vinyl and do away with window painting. Wondering also what they do about inside window trim ??? any guidance/hints/traps are welcomed thanks John If you care about the way our country is heading...PLEASE remember and remind every voter that the 'cesspools' must be pumped out when we go to the polls in November, 2010. Honoring and respecting the voters is a thing of the past for many of those in our congress and senate. We need to vote their arrogant, self serving butts out of office if America is to get on the long road back from the devastation that these self serving cowards have brought upon us. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Nov 17 06:50:29 2009 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:50:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> References: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> Message-ID: <4B02AA25.8080201@xxiii.com> john niolon wrote: > dealers... want to go with a full vinyl and do away with window painting. > any guidance/hints/traps are welcomed Vinyl is PVC - you'll need to avoid pressurizing your house excessively, or use cast iron windows ;) -Wayne From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 07:04:28 2009 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:04:28 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> References: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> Message-ID: We replaced all the first floor windows with windows from Pella. They are vinyl on the outside and pine stained oak on the inside. They are not cheep, but seem to be well made. Go to a Pella store not the home improvement type store. They are not the same windows. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves! > From: jniolon at bham.rr.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:12:21 -0600 > Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement > > my wood frame windows are nearly 20 years old and are starting to look > really bad... I paint every three-four years and I hate window painting !! > Anyone had any good/bad experience with Window World or any of the other > dealers... want to go with a full vinyl and do away with window painting. > Wondering also what they do about inside window trim ??? > > any guidance/hints/traps are welcomed > > thanks > John > > > > > If you care about the way our country is heading...PLEASE remember and > remind every voter that the 'cesspools' must be pumped out when we go to the > polls in November, 2010. > > Honoring and respecting the voters is a thing of the past for many of those > in our congress and senate. We need to vote their arrogant, self serving > butts out of office if America is to get on the long road back from the > devastation that these self serving cowards have brought upon us. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Nov 17 07:14:12 2009 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:14:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: <4B02AA25.8080201@xxiii.com> References: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> <4B02AA25.8080201@xxiii.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne" > Vinyl is PVC - you'll need to avoid pressurizing your house excessively, > or use cast iron windows... Next we'll get a barrage of emails about Linux or Mac so you won't have to constantly open & close your windows... Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From scottmryan at netzero.net Tue Nov 17 07:56:46 2009 From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:56:46 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ladybugs (partly shop related) References: Message-ID: <6071F004467E48C8ADAFD9F7A29F00E0@smrinsp1100> Hi! In our house (Minneapolis, Minnesota) we have had the asian ladybugs/beetles go into the attic/crawlspace, they go dormant when it gets cold. (there were thousands (10's of thousands?) of them that burrowed under the fibreglas insulation and appear to winter there-sealed up attic better and now it's only some (hundreds?) that get in. You can tell the difference easily, the asian ones are orange and have 'M' shaped markings on thier head. They also are not good for controlling insects because they eat anything, including real ladybugs. We had aphids on our plum tree out front and ended up getting real ladybugs and releasing them on the tree; it worked, and also I think they crowded out the asian lady beetles this year, we only see a few in the now-usually many dosens crawling around on the upstairs ceilings, esp near the lights. (and regular ladybugs don't winter inside the house, at least that's what the local organic shop said.) and asain lady beetles sometimes bite, (mistaking you for food), and ladybugs do not. Scott R Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Ladybugs (shop related) > Thanks for the follow up. > > I did deal with it a little bit. I put an add on "freecycle" and I have > about 3 people come and suck them up, with a bunch more wanting to come > back in the spring when it warms up (I have no idea where they go when it > gets cold.) > Eric, > > I imagine you've probably dealt with this by now. When you posted > this, I fired off this email to the NJ DEP: > > A property in New Jersey has been inundated with ladybugs. I have > read about ways to address this. I am frequently told that you can't > kill them because they are protected by law. While I have no > intention of initiating a major ladybug genocide, I would like to > know if this is actually true and what law or regulation it is that > states this. Thank you. > > As the wheels of government agencies turn rather slowly, today I > finally received this reply: > > Steve, the ladybugs you refer to are asian ladybugs. There is no law > preventing you from destroying them. I use regular household bug > spray. Check the web for further information. > > This came from from Larry Herrighty > > At 04:30 PM 10/22/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: >>OK, so I just got back from New Orleans and I found that ladybugs moved >>into my brand new building. Thousands of them. >> >>It's also "illegal" to kill them. (but I don't mind if I have to) But >>this means that I can't find poisons or such for them. >> >>So, what's the best way to get rid of these pests? > ____________________________________________________________ Weight Loss Program Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=Ti0H1qHZsxCu7sqcPtQrtAAAJ1Fdm0mGPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA= From scottmryan at netzero.net Tue Nov 17 08:10:52 2009 From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:10:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] conductive rubber References: <4AE11CFB.8010403@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5D461BB85756494EBDB884366BB18529@smrinsp1100> The conductive rubber does wear away with time, depending on how it was manufactured. (if you have cleaned the pcb/other surface w/ tarnex (for metal) and then water, or alcohol if carbon based contacts, it's probably the pad (ohmmeter should show no more than 100-200 ohms when the points are laid across the pad within 1/16" or so of each other, if it's greater than 500ohms, the pad is worn out). I did superglue very thin foil onto a few pads once, it's still working, but does bounce sometimes. (it's the mute button mostly) I have seen a compound, I believe MCM electronics sells it, that is supposed to work that you brush onto the contact pad. I also saw someone use silver conductive paint on contact pads, but this was not working at all when it came in (was used on a memorymoog, contact pads have not been avail for those for around 15 years). Scott R ----- Original Message ----- > eric at megageek.com wrote: >> OK, so I have a remote control that gets used alot. The main buttons >> aren't registering any more. >> >> Is there a way to "clean" or "resurface" the button's conductive rubber >> back side? > I clean remotes and other keypads with just a dry paper towel and a little > knuckle grease. Unless it was immersed in something sticky, this is > enough. Also, I've found the contacts, not the pads, are what need > cleaning; they oxidize. A paper towel is rough enough clean them. If its > really bad, use a pencil eraser followed with the paper towel. Pencil > erasers have some mind grid embedded in them. Electrical engineers use an > eraser to clean non-gold plated contacts, the eraser will completely > remove the gold and even copper plating. >> What would happen if I just put a piece of metal there? >> > Don't know, just guessing, but you might get bounces (multiple button > hits). > > Peter Thomas >> TIA! >> >> Moose ____________________________________________________________ Weight Loss Program Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=oTbZAacuas73fqn4fZ9-OgAAJ1Fdm0mGPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA= From eric at megageek.com Tue Nov 17 08:14:58 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:14:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] conductive rubber Message-ID: I guess I should update my question here as well. I bought the conductive paint that was recommended here. I got it from that wacky scienfic company (I can't remember the name now.) It worked perfectly, and I still have enough for a bunch more repairs. Thanks again to everyone on this list. I can always count on your guys for the tough anwers. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson -----shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net wrote: ----- To: From: "scottmryan" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net Date: 11/17/2009 10:10 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] conductive rubber The conductive rubber does wear away with time, depending on how it was manufactured. (if you have cleaned the pcb/other surface w/ tarnex (for metal) and then water, or alcohol if carbon based contacts, it's probably the pad (ohmmeter should show no more than 100-200 ohms when the points are laid across the pad within 1/16" or so of each other, if it's greater than 500ohms, the pad is worn out). I did superglue very thin foil onto a few pads once, it's still working, but does bounce sometimes. (it's the mute button mostly) I have seen a compound, I believe MCM electronics sells it, that is supposed to work that you brush onto the contact pad. I also saw someone use silver conductive paint on contact pads, but this was not working at all when it came in (was used on a memorymoog, contact pads have not been avail for those for around 15 years). Scott R ----- Original Message ----- > eric at megageek.com wrote: >> OK, so I have a remote control that gets used alot. The main buttons >> aren't registering any more. >> >> Is there a way to "clean" or "resurface" the button's conductive rubber >> back side? > I clean remotes and other keypads with just a dry paper towel and a little > knuckle grease. Unless it was immersed in something sticky, this is > enough. Also, I've found the contacts, not the pads, are what need > cleaning; they oxidize. A paper towel is rough enough clean them. If its > really bad, use a pencil eraser followed with the paper towel. Pencil > erasers have some mind grid embedded in them. Electrical engineers use an > eraser to clean non-gold plated contacts, the eraser will completely > remove the gold and even copper plating. >> What would happen if I just put a piece of metal there? >> > Don't know, just guessing, but you might get bounces (multiple button > hits). > > Peter Thomas >> TIA! >> >> Moose From scottmryan at netzero.net Tue Nov 17 08:25:53 2009 From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:25:53 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091024132556.020d3c08@cox.net> Message-ID: <025DB3F2DB96476198B62B42AB9FCFE2@smrinsp1100> I have a radio shack 'probescope' (display is about 1/2" x 3/4" with very course pixels), it does work, although I modified it to have better resolution (had .1 1v 10v ranges before, added /2 and /5 switch), and while it doesn't tell much, it is much better than a meter, I have used it for reading tone ring sensors for abs, oxy sensor, and a number of other things on the car (if I need better resolution, I can (and have) hook(ed) it up to a computer as long as it's win 95/98(/me?) with a serial port.) a modern handheld scope should be much nicer. I think it would be a useful thing. Please let me know what you get (or have gotten) if it's different than the velleman and how you like it. Scott R (scottmryan at netzero.net) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John T. Blair" > Hey gang, > > I've been bouncing around the idea of trying to get a hand held > Ocilloscope for > working on cars and other things. I was thinking about the Velleman HPS > 10 Handheld OScilloscope. > > I was wondering if anyone has one, used one, etc. How they like them. > I've used several of the Tectronics bench scopes in the past. > > How do you like the one you've used? Pros and cons? > > > John > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net > Va. Beach, Va > Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > 65 Rambler Classic > > Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan > Bricklin: www.bricklin.org > > If you can read this - Thank a teacher! > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as scottmryan at netzero.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > ____________________________________________________________ Online Medical Insurance Get free online medical insurance quotes and save more money today. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=vhBe4Uk1YI82aoagTC5JYwAAJ1Fdm0mGPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAQAAAAFAAAAAIxjij4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAiWIQAAAAA= From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Nov 17 09:21:27 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:21:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> References: <8B5110073A284487A68510772CD1698E@niolon> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091117111241.01dcf0c8@cox.net> At 08:12 AM 11/17/2009, john niolon wrote: >my wood frame windows are nearly 20 years old and are starting to look >really bad... I paint every three-four years and I hate window painting !! >Anyone had any good/bad experience with Window World or any of the other >dealers... want to go with a full vinyl and do away with window painting. >Wondering also what they do about inside window trim ??? > John, I had mine house done about 2 yrs ago. I called about 5 places and got estimates, but didn't call Window World. I could't believe the $189 installed ads. I finally went with a local company that had been in business for about 50 yrs. I was relatively supprised at how easy it was to pull the windows out from the outside. But the new windows will be just a little smaller because the don't remove the inside trim and really take the old window frame out. There was only 1 fellow installing my windows (15 including a picture window it the bay window area) and it took him about 3 1/2 days to complete the job. Most of the estimates were from $6-$8K. I ended up at just over $7K. After I did mine, the lady behind me (same style house) had Window World do her house. She opted for an upgrade to the $189 window and it cost her within $500 of what it cost me. When Window World did hers, they sent a crew of 2 or 3 fellows and did the job in 1 day. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Nov 17 09:26:40 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:26:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes In-Reply-To: <025DB3F2DB96476198B62B42AB9FCFE2@smrinsp1100> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091024132556.020d3c08@cox.net> <025DB3F2DB96476198B62B42AB9FCFE2@smrinsp1100> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091117112537.01e0d0d0@cox.net> At 10:25 AM 11/17/2009, scottmryan wrote: >I have a radio shack 'probescope' (display is about 1/2" x 3/4" with very course >pixels), it does work, although I modified it to have better resolution (had .1 1v >10v ranges before, added /2 and /5 switch), and while it doesn't tell much, it is >much better than a meter, I have used it for reading tone ring sensors for abs, >oxy sensor, and a number of other things on the car (if I need better resolution, >I can (and have) hook(ed) it up to a computer as long as it's win 95/98(/me?) >with a serial port.) a modern handheld scope should be much nicer. I think it >would be a useful thing. Please let me know what you get (or have gotten) if it's >different than the velleman and how you like it. Scott, Thanks for the reply. So far I haven't gotten one, it's on my "gifts" list. I'll let you know if I ever get it. :) John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Nov 17 09:55:42 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:55:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes In-Reply-To: <025DB3F2DB96476198B62B42AB9FCFE2@smrinsp1100> Message-ID: <746345.50702.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have one of those lying around that I got maybe 10 years ago. I haven't tried it in at least 5 years. I'm curious if the software would work on a vista PC. When I got the PC last month, I took care to get a real (not-USB-based) serial port, since I know it would come i handy for things like that. I hope that anything sold today would work a lot better than that old RS gadget! Doug --- On Tue, 11/17/09, scottmryan wrote: > From: scottmryan > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 10:25 AM > I have a radio shack 'probescope' > (display is about 1/2" x 3/4" with very course pixels), it > does work, although I modified it to have better resolution > (had .1 1v 10v ranges before, added /2 and /5 switch), and > while it doesn't tell much, it is much better than a meter, > I have used it for reading tone ring sensors for abs, oxy > sensor, and a number of other things on the car (if I need > better resolution, I can (and have) hook(ed) it up to a > computer as long as it's win 95/98(/me?) with a serial > port.) a modern handheld scope should be much nicer. I think > it would be a useful thing. Please let me know what you get > (or have gotten) if it's different than the velleman and how > you like it. > Scott R (scottmryan at netzero.net) > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John T. Blair" > > Hey gang, > > > > I've been bouncing around the idea of trying to get a > hand held Ocilloscope for > > working on cars and other things. I was thinking > about the Velleman HPS 10 Handheld OScilloscope. > > > > I was wondering if anyone has one, used one, > etc. How they like them. > > I've used several of the Tectronics bench scopes in > the past. > > > > How do you like the one you've used? Pros and > cons? > > > > > > John > > > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ > email: jblair1948 at cox.net > > Va. Beach, Va > > Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > > > 48 > TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 > Series V (B1106) > > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) > 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > > > 65 Rambler Classic > > > > Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan > > Bricklin: www.bricklin.org > > > > If you can read this > - Thank a teacher! > > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > You are subscribed as scottmryan at netzero.net > > > > Shop-talk mailing list > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Online Medical Insurance > Get free online medical insurance quotes and save more > money today. > http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=vhBe4Uk1YI82aoagTC5JYwAAJ1Fd m0mGPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAQAAAAFAAAAAIxjij4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAiWIQAAAAA= > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Nov 17 10:01:25 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:01:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091117111241.01dcf0c8@cox.net> Message-ID: <78859.77464.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My house has well-made early 70's sash windows with add-on triple-track storm windows. They are not falling apart, but I have considered modernizing some of them for energy efficiency and easier cleaning. But it is probably not worth it from just the energy-saving perspective, and I would not be happy if the windows were smaller or looked funny or if the trim got messed up. But on many of the windows, the add-on storm window frame opening is a bit smaller than the window glass area, so smaller windows without storms might let in just as much light. Doug --- On Tue, 11/17/09, John T. Blair wrote: > From: John T. Blair > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] window replacement > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 11:21 AM > At 08:12 AM 11/17/2009, john niolon > wrote: > > >my wood frame windows are nearly 20 years old and are > starting to look > >really bad... I paint every three-four years and I hate > window painting !! > >Anyone had any good/bad experience with Window World or > any of the other > >dealers... want to go with a full vinyl and do away > with window painting. > >Wondering also what they do about inside window trim > ??? From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Nov 17 11:17:32 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:17:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: <78859.77464.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091117111241.01dcf0c8@cox.net> <78859.77464.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091117124541.01dc12c8@cox.net> At 12:01 PM 11/17/2009, Doug Braun wrote: >...But it is probably not worth it from just the energy-saving perspective, and I >would not be happy if the windows were smaller or looked funny or if the trim >got messed up. But on many of the windows, the add-on storm window frame >opening is a bit smaller than the window glass area, so smaller windows >without storms might let in just as much light. Doug, I guess that depends on where you live and how you heat your house. I live in Virginia Beach, VA, the most south eastern part of the state on the Atlantic ocean and Chesapeake bay. We seldom get much below 32 deg. Maybe a week in a year. Because of that, most of the newer construction (post 75) homes have heat pumps. My house is all electric, heat pump with aux. resistive heating strips, electric stove and clothes dryer. There is NO gas in my neighborhood. That said, when I was looking the new "replacement" windows, I was guarenteed a 25% savings in my heating and cooling bill. I asked, since it was all electric, how would I know? They didn't have any answers. So I tracked my electrical useage (in KWH). From the year before I put in the windows, I saw a 5% reduction in my electrical consumption. After that year, I installed ventless gas logs in my fire place (which I did not use - because it sucked all the heat out of the house). When the house was cold, I'd cut on the gas logs. This really warmed up the main family room. I also tracked my electrical usage for the next year. I saw an 11% reduction in my electric bill as compaired to just the windows and a total of 17.5% over 2 years before without the windows or logs. While some months were a lot less than expected that can be due to milder or colder or warmer than usual - what ever that is. Now all this sounds good, but, if I assume a 15% savings on my electric bill of about $2,600 per year, I should have saved about that should have saved about $390. But then you have to add in the cost of the gas for the logs. Unfortulately, I didn't really track that, but my guess is I spent something about $200 for the gas. So my net savings was about $200/yr. To pay off the combined cost of the windows and logs $9,000, it's going to take about 45 yrs. :( But to be able to get warm in the winter is very nice, and the new windows look better than the old ones with the storm windows. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From dhlocker at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 20:23:16 2009 From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:23:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes In-Reply-To: <746345.50702.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <569300021.4302761258514596127.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Sorry, nothing works on a Vista PC. Not even many M$ progs. Suggest going back to XP or forward to W7. Nothing but _bad_ experience with that POS. Donald. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Braun" To: "scottmryan" Cc: "Shop-Talk List" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:55:42 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes I have one of those lying around that I got maybe 10 years ago. I haven't tried it in at least 5 years. I'm curious if the software would work on a vista PC. When I got the PC last month, I took care to get a real (not-USB-based) serial port, since I know it would come i handy for things like that. I hope that anything sold today would work a lot better than that old RS gadget! Doug --- On Tue, 11/17/09, scottmryan wrote: > From: scottmryan > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 10:25 AM > I have a radio shack 'probescope' > (display is about 1/2" x 3/4" with very course pixels), it > does work, although I modified it to have better resolution > (had .1 1v 10v ranges before, added /2 and /5 switch), and > while it doesn't tell much, it is much better than a meter, > I have used it for reading tone ring sensors for abs, oxy > sensor, and a number of other things on the car (if I need > better resolution, I can (and have) hook(ed) it up to a > computer as long as it's win 95/98(/me?) with a serial > port.) a modern handheld scope should be much nicer. I think > it would be a useful thing. Please let me know what you get > (or have gotten) if it's different than the velleman and how > you like it. > Scott R (scottmryan at netzero.net) > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John T. Blair" > > Hey gang, > > > > I've been bouncing around the idea of trying to get a > hand held Ocilloscope for > > working on cars and other things. I was thinking > about the Velleman HPS 10 Handheld OScilloscope. > > > > I was wondering if anyone has one, used one, > etc. How they like them. > > I've used several of the Tectronics bench scopes in > the past. > > > > How do you like the one you've used? Pros and > cons? > > > > > > John > > > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ > email: jblair1948 at cox.net > > Va. Beach, Va > > Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > > > 48 > TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 > Series V (B1106) > > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) > 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > > > 65 Rambler Classic > > > > Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan > > Bricklin: www.bricklin.org > > > > If you can read this > - Thank a teacher! > > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > You are subscribed as scottmryan at netzero.net > > > > Shop-talk mailing list > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Online Medical Insurance > Get free online medical insurance quotes and save more > money today. > http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=vhBe4Uk1YI82aoagTC5JYwAAJ1Fd m0mGPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAQAAAAFAAAAAIxjij4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAiWIQAAAAA= > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From opposumking at verizon.net Wed Nov 18 03:25:05 2009 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:25:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes References: <569300021.4302761258514596127.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: > Sorry, nothing works on a Vista PC. Not even many M$ progs. Suggest > going back to XP or forward to W7. I hear the story, but I've yet to actually run into a single program I couldn't get to run in Vista. At the worst, I had to set it to run in a compatability mode. I'm personally running MD DOS programs in Vista, as well Windows 3, Windows 95, Windows XP, Linux, Apple OS, and probably several others I can't think of at the moment, all in Vista. All running just fine. From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 04:11:50 2009 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:11:50 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes In-Reply-To: References: <569300021.4302761258514596127.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, Message-ID: I have an enexpensive CAD program that will not run under Vista. I will be moving our two Vista systems to W7. I do not expect anything great. It is just another release of WinDoze, so it will be buggy. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves! > From: opposumking at verizon.net > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:25:05 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Hand held O scopes > > > Sorry, nothing works on a Vista PC. Not even many M$ progs. Suggest > > going back to XP or forward to W7. > > I hear the story, but I've yet to actually run into a single program I > couldn't get to run in Vista. At the worst, I had to set it to run in a > compatability mode. > > I'm personally running MD DOS programs in Vista, as well Windows 3, Windows > 95, Windows XP, Linux, Apple OS, and probably several others I can't think > of at the moment, all in Vista. All running just fine. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From nogera2 at att.net Wed Nov 18 10:00:49 2009 From: nogera2 at att.net (Robert Nogueira) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:00:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <660151E0A6E04227AB960F9337F6E1AF@CARROOM> Several years ago I went to a Pella Window store to see about buying five windows. The only person on the sales floor was the receptionist who told me it would be about twenty minutes before someone could help me as all the salesmen were in a sales meeting with the manager. I told her to go into the meeting and tell him someone was outside waiting to buy some windows. She responded, " Oh I couldn't interrupt a sales meeting, he gets really upset if anyone interrupts a sales meeting". I asked for a piece of paper and wrote him the following note; " Came by to purchase some windows. Sorry I missed you. Hope you taught your sales staff how to sell windows. On my way down the street to Window World." I later sent a letter to Pella and got a form letter in response that pointedly did not address a single concern I had relayed in my letter but simply asked me to buy Pella windows. Bob Nogueira PS The Window World windows turned out to be great windows. > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rich White > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:04 AM > To: jniolon at bham.rr.com; shop-talk List > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] window replacement > > > We replaced all the first floor windows with windows from Pella. > > They are vinyl on the outside and pine stained oak on the inside. > > They are not cheep, but seem to be well made. From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 11:38:31 2009 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:38:31 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] window replacement In-Reply-To: <660151E0A6E04227AB960F9337F6E1AF@CARROOM> References: , <660151E0A6E04227AB960F9337F6E1AF@CARROOM> Message-ID: Bob, I'm sorry about your experience with your Pella store. I very well might have reacted in the same way you did. Ours was very different. I have no financial interest in Pella, just a satisfied customer of the Champaign, IL store. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves! > From: nogera2 at att.net > To: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com; jniolon at bham.rr.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] window replacement > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:00:49 -0600 > > Several years ago I went to a Pella Window store to see about buying five > windows. The only person on the sales floor was the receptionist who told me > it would be about twenty minutes before someone could help me as all the > salesmen were in a sales meeting with the manager. > > I told her to go into the meeting and tell him someone was outside waiting > to buy some windows. She responded, " Oh I couldn't interrupt a sales > meeting, he gets really upset if anyone interrupts a sales meeting". > > I asked for a piece of paper and wrote him the following note; > > " Came by to purchase some windows. Sorry I missed you. Hope you taught > your sales staff how to sell windows. On my way down the street to Window > World." > > I later sent a letter to Pella and got a form letter in response that > pointedly did not address a single concern I had relayed in my letter but > simply asked me to buy Pella windows. > > Bob Nogueira > > PS The Window World windows turned out to be great windows. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rich White > > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:04 AM > > To: jniolon at bham.rr.com; shop-talk List > > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] window replacement > > > > > > We replaced all the first floor windows with windows from Pella. > > > > They are vinyl on the outside and pine stained oak on the inside. > > > > They are not cheep, but seem to be well made. From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 20:08:01 2009 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:08:01 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject) Message-ID: We are having some work done on our well and pressure tank. I have a question about the wiring. It is powered by a 220V 20A breaker. If remember correctly they used 12/2 with ground romax to run power to the pressure switch in the crawl space. When I was questioning the owner of the well service about what wiring is required, he said they always have an electrician run it for them. He thought there were normally just three wires. He did not remember having a red conductor just white, black and ground. He and I were not communicating very well, so I want to run it past the knowledgeable people on this list. I would have thought 12/3 with ground would have been the correct wire. This would have meant that there would have been a red and a black wire for phase, a white wire for ground and the bare wire as the grounded conductor. Am I missing something? Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From marka at maracing.com Fri Nov 20 20:47:00 2009 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:47:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Rich White wrote: > I would have thought 12/3 with ground would have been the correct wire. > This would have meant that there would have been a red and a black wire > for phase, a white wire for ground and the bare wire as the grounded > conductor. > > Am I missing something? I think so, yes. The xx/3 wire has the shielded white wire to provide a neutral for 110vac loads. I.e. on an electric stove with a 110vac light or timer or something like that. If you don't have any 110vac loads, all you need are the hot wires for each phase (I'm don't think this is the correct word since you'll still be single phase, but I don't know the proper one), plus a safety ground. The 220vac motor will be connected to the two hots, with the case connected to the safety ground. No current will be carried on the safety ground. FWIW, you'll see welders wired like this all the time, for the same reason. They don't have 110vac loads and therefore don't need the neutral wire. Mark From marka at maracing.com Fri Nov 20 20:48:21 2009 From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:48:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Rich White wrote: > When I was questioning the owner of the well service about what wiring is > required, he said they always have an electrician run it for them. He thought > there were normally just three wires. He did not remember having a red > conductor just white, black and ground. He and I were not communicating very > well, so I want to run it past the knowledgeable people on this list. Oh. The white conductor should be painted black in the electrical boxes by code I believe... That tells the next guy down the line that its a live wire, not a neutral. Mark From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Nov 20 21:04:24 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:04:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091121040424076.MBWV22957@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> > I would have thought 12/3 with ground would have been the > correct wire. This > would have meant that there would have been a red and a black > wire for phase, > a white wire for ground and the bare wire as the grounded conductor. If it's just a 220v pump motor, it doesn't need a power ground. The motor connects only between the two hot wires (with the safety ground to the housing). And while I don't know if it's allowed by current code or not; since 2 conductor (plus ground) cable usually only has white and black, I've seen a lot of examples where white is hot as well as black. Randall From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Sat Nov 21 06:27:06 2009 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:27:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject) Message-ID: Thanks Donald and Mark. I guess I was not thinking about not needing the 110 voltage. At least I will not have to have a new wire run. That is good news. I was thinking the only place the white wire could be hot was in a switch loop. Mark is correct that even there it needs to be marked black. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! From halfnights at shaw.ca Sat Nov 21 14:32:01 2009 From: halfnights at shaw.ca (Art Halfnights) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 295 References: Message-ID: <000d01ca6af2$0fbfd320$569501ae@home> If you had got the 3 wire like you wanted you could have used it down the road as a 110 supply and if needed a switch in the house area for what ever, light a light to see in the dark OR??? It doesn't cost that much more at the time as to doing it later. I always burry someothers just because. Regards Art Halfnifgrs From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 18:13:57 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:13:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 295 In-Reply-To: <000d01ca6af2$0fbfd320$569501ae@home> References: <000d01ca6af2$0fbfd320$569501ae@home> Message-ID: <2400a5d40911211713y5591182eic6d681369ec12833@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Art Halfnights wrote: > If you had got the 3 wire like you wanted you could have used it down the > road as a 110 supply and if needed a switch in the house area for what ever, > light a light to see in the dark OR??? It doesn't cost that much more at > the time as to doing it later. I always burry someothers just because. > Regards Art Halfnifgrs > I know my local code wouldn't allow that. Pumps are required to be on their own circuit. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sun Nov 22 14:45:41 2009 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 15:45:41 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk Message-ID: <1E768DEBF04742D68426EEEE13B34996@niolon> tool/shop content... if I don't find these I'm gonna have to build them and I ain't got time before Christmas !!! My wife found some plant holders shaped like angels..about 2' tall. Outline of an angel with wings with wire ring in front for holding a flower pot. They're made like that cheap imported Mexican "art" of bent up 1/4" rod stock...they were at someone's house and there was no one around who knew where they got them... I've googled every term/word/phrase I can imagine and can't seem to find any supplier... anyone got a clue. ??? even if they don't show the angel... they might have them... tia john From racertod at racertodd.com Sun Nov 22 16:47:19 2009 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 15:47:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk In-Reply-To: <1E768DEBF04742D68426EEEE13B34996@niolon> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20091122153638.00c43dc0@mail.blarg.net> Is this close? Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 223,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From racertod at racertodd.com Sun Nov 22 18:18:43 2009 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:18:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk In-Reply-To: <4B181DFB319845CBA1A5A70FDAFCBA9D@niolon> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20091122153638.00c43dc0@mail.blarg.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20091122171640.00c4ee28@mail.blarg.net> John wrote: >those look really close... but can't tell size or price..... are you a >vendor ??? Nope. You'll have to contact them for pricing. Size was listed on the page, they're about 2 feet high or so. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 270,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 223,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Nov 22 20:04:50 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:04:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20091122171640.00c4ee28@mail.blarg.net> Message-ID: <57755.79498.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The web site describes an interesting finishing technique. Perhaps it would be useful for auto restoration? "All items are hand crafted in Mexico, allowed to rust, and then hand dipped in poly urethane for a lasting finish." Doug From rkg at teleport.com Mon Nov 23 06:46:02 2009 From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:46:02 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk In-Reply-To: <57755.79498.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <57755.79498.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0A921A.7080505@teleport.com> Hmmm... Sounds a bit like parts of a 1:1 scale model-er, uh, British car I have in the garage... :-) Best, rkg (Richard George) > The web site describes an interesting finishing technique. Perhaps it would be useful for auto restoration? > > "All items are hand crafted in Mexico, allowed to rust, and then hand dipped in poly urethane for a lasting finish." > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as rkg at teleport.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Mon Nov 23 07:06:10 2009 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:06:10 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk In-Reply-To: <57755.79498.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20091122171640.00c4ee28@mail.blarg.net>, <57755.79498.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My car is half way there. Anyone know where I can get a swimming pool full of poly urethane? Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:04:50 -0800 > From: doug at dougbraun.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk > > The web site describes an interesting finishing technique. Perhaps it would be useful for auto restoration? > > "All items are hand crafted in Mexico, allowed to rust, and then hand dipped in poly urethane for a lasting finish." > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Mon Nov 23 08:15:31 2009 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:15:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mexico? -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rich White Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:06 AM To: shop-talk List Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk My car is half way there. Anyone know where I can get a swimming pool full of poly urethane? Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:04:50 -0800 > From: doug at dougbraun.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] imported mexican "art" junk > > The web site describes an interesting finishing technique. Perhaps it would be useful for auto restoration? > > "All items are hand crafted in Mexico, allowed to rust, and then hand dipped in poly urethane for a lasting finish." > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jmitch at snet.net Tue Nov 24 19:24:30 2009 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:24:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Blast media Message-ID: <4B0C955E.7060806@snet.net> I need to restock my blast cabinet media. I normally use #8 glass bead for cleaning parts, but I can't remember what size Aluminum oxide I've used in the past. I want something that will remove old paint from car parts, but not leave much of an etch pattern. What size do you guys use? Thanks John Mitchell From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Nov 24 20:29:07 2009 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:29:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Blast media In-Reply-To: <4B0C955E.7060806@snet.net> References: <4B0C955E.7060806@snet.net> Message-ID: <409789B554D84AFD8E135138E96E21DC@EricJRussellPC> IIRC, the aluminum oxide I bought at HF was sold by 'grit'. I think I bought 60 or 80 grit. The other media I've used and liked was 'Skat Magic' sold by TP Tools. Ground glass (recycled). Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > I need to restock my blast cabinet media. I normally use #8 glass > bead for cleaning parts, but I can't remember what size Aluminum oxide > I've used in the past. I want something that will remove old paint from > car parts, but not leave much of an etch pattern. What size do you guys > use? Thanks John Mitchell From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Fri Nov 27 15:58:06 2009 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:58:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail gun sight.... Message-ID: <0B71DF5D425E43E5B27C5CB18F2CAFB8@Digilink1> I am trying to remove a dove tail rear iron sight so that I can install a mount for a scope. I have made a block of wood to hold the barrel in my vice and it holds it quite nicely. I have been using a brass punch and a pretty big ball peen hammer to hit the punch. I have tried going both directions with no success. I have no idea if loctite was used when the blade sight was installed. If there was a way to super cool the sight without cooling the barrel it might loosen it up but since the sight is so small if I put dry ice on it the barrel would probably cool down too. So I thought I'd see what suggestions come from the collective wisdom of Shop-talk...any ideas? Thanks Gerry From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Nov 27 16:27:23 2009 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:27:23 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint Message-ID: <503C091EA3E84686B40203D76C77C030@niolon> I've got a Ford C-6 transmission that will be in my project truck... it's not terribly grungy but needs some cleaning before paint... is there a trick or secret for getting these old aluminum housings all sparkly clean so they will keep the paint on them... It's sitting on the floor and will have to be rebuilt... should I clean and paint before or after the rebuild ??? tia John If you care about the way our country is heading...PLEASE remember and remind every voter that the 'cesspools' must be pumped out when we go to the polls in November, 2010. Honoring and respecting the voters is a thing of the past for many of those in our congress and senate. We need to vote their arrogant, self serving butts out of office if America is to get on the long road back from the devastation that these self serving cowards have brought upon us. From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Fri Nov 27 17:16:07 2009 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:16:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint In-Reply-To: <503C091EA3E84686B40203D76C77C030@niolon> Message-ID: <973F5FEC020245EAA45910CC8C577575@Digilink1> Why paint it? Just clean it up good with a wire rotary brush and when it is nice and shiny, clear coat it..... -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:27 PM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint I've got a Ford C-6 transmission that will be in my project truck... it's not terribly grungy but needs some cleaning before paint... is there a trick or secret for getting these old aluminum housings all sparkly clean so they will keep the paint on them... It's sitting on the floor and will have to be rebuilt... should I clean and paint before or after the rebuild ??? tia John If you care about the way our country is heading...PLEASE remember and remind every voter that the 'cesspools' must be pumped out when we go to the polls in November, 2010. Honoring and respecting the voters is a thing of the past for many of those in our congress and senate. We need to vote their arrogant, self serving butts out of office if America is to get on the long road back from the devastation that these self serving cowards have brought upon us. You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From bobkegel at comcast.net Fri Nov 27 17:31:14 2009 From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:31:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail gun sight.... In-Reply-To: <0B71DF5D425E43E5B27C5CB18F2CAFB8@Digilink1> Message-ID: <31C38DC4AFCD414C8709A1017CB50439@8sv5f01> > If there was a way to super cool > the sight without cooling the barrel it might loosen it up > but since the sight is so small if I put dry ice on it the > barrel would probably cool down too. Have you tried a good penetrating oil, such as Kroil or P'Blaster? There are refrigerant sprays, designed for electronics troubleshooting, with pinpoint applicators. When all else fails, get a bigger hammer. Bob Kegel Aberdeen, WA From strovato at optonline.net Fri Nov 27 18:20:29 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:20:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail gun sight.... In-Reply-To: <0B71DF5D425E43E5B27C5CB18F2CAFB8@Digilink1> References: <0B71DF5D425E43E5B27C5CB18F2CAFB8@Digilink1> Message-ID: <0KTS00IC1P2RN8X8@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> OK, so first I have to tell you about all I know about firearms is to avoid having one pointed in my direction. Can this gun be fired? Thinking about your cooling idea, I would think that firing the gun would heat the barrel. Perhaps some combination of firing the gun and applying the dry ice to the sight would generate the expansion/contraction combination you desire. Now of course this may not be terribly practical where your vise is located. My only thought here is that firing a gun makes it hot. Figuring out if this information is useful and how to apply it safely I will leave to others with more knowledge on the subject. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 05:58 PM 11/27/2009, Gerald Brazil wrote: > I am trying to remove a dove tail rear iron sight so that I can install a >mount for a scope. I have made a block of wood to hold the barrel in my vice >and it holds it quite nicely. I have been using a brass punch and a pretty >big ball peen hammer to hit the punch. I have tried going both directions >with no success. I have no idea if loctite was used when the blade sight was >installed. If there was a way to super cool the sight without cooling the >barrel it might loosen it up but since the sight is so small if I put dry >ice on it the barrel would probably cool down too. From strovato at optonline.net Fri Nov 27 18:23:04 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:23:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint In-Reply-To: <973F5FEC020245EAA45910CC8C577575@Digilink1> References: <503C091EA3E84686B40203D76C77C030@niolon> <973F5FEC020245EAA45910CC8C577575@Digilink1> Message-ID: <0KTS00MGNP6ICE8A@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Well, the same concerns for paint adhesion would apply to clear coat, right? At 07:16 PM 11/27/2009, Gerald Brazil wrote: >Why paint it? Just clean it up good with a wire rotary brush and when it is >nice and shiny, clear coat it..... From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Fri Nov 27 18:48:06 2009 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:48:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint In-Reply-To: <0KTS00MGNP6ICE8A@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <7532C689C7914B1AB5924BF357550081@Digilink1> I've found Krylon clear cote in buzz bombs sticks very well, I think better than enamel.....one thing,,,,,if it comes off it is not as obvious.... -----Original Message----- From: Steven Trovato [mailto:strovato at optonline.net] Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 8:23 PM To: Gerald Brazil; 'john niolon'; 'shop-talk' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint Well, the same concerns for paint adhesion would apply to clear coat, right? At 07:16 PM 11/27/2009, Gerald Brazil wrote: >Why paint it? Just clean it up good with a wire rotary brush and when it is >nice and shiny, clear coat it..... From eltonclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 19:42:19 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:42:19 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint In-Reply-To: <7532C689C7914B1AB5924BF357550081@Digilink1> References: <0KTS00MGNP6ICE8A@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <7532C689C7914B1AB5924BF357550081@Digilink1> Message-ID: *The aircraft guys are extremely good at dealing with aluminum . . People like "Aircraft Spruce" have what it takes to clean, prep and prime aluminum and I have used their products on Lotus racecar and sportscar restoration. * *http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/metalprepsupplies.html* *I've used the Alumiprep 33 to blend in new aluminum sheet with 40 year old original and it turns out fantastic. * *Tony in Texas* * * On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Gerald Brazil wrote: > I've found Krylon clear cote in buzz bombs sticks very well, I think better > than enamel.....one thing,,,,,if it comes off it is not as obvious.... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Trovato [mailto:strovato at optonline.net] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 8:23 PM > To: Gerald Brazil; 'john niolon'; 'shop-talk' > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] cleaning a transmission for paint > > Well, the same concerns for paint adhesion would apply to clear coat, > right? > > At 07:16 PM 11/27/2009, Gerald Brazil wrote: > >Why paint it? Just clean it up good with a wire rotary brush and when it > is > >nice and shiny, clear coat it..... > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From chad at linuxeg.com Fri Nov 27 22:03:12 2009 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:03:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail gun sight.... In-Reply-To: <0KTS00IC1P2RN8X8@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0B71DF5D425E43E5B27C5CB18F2CAFB8@Digilink1> <0KTS00IC1P2RN8X8@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4B10AF10.6020506@linuxeg.com> Not saying this will work but CRC makes "Freeze-Off super penetrant" with "Freeze Shock Action" http://www.crcindustries.com/auto/content/literature.aspx chad > > > At 05:58 PM 11/27/2009, Gerald Brazil wrote: >> I am trying to remove a dove tail rear iron sight so that I can >> install a >> mount for a scope. I have made a block of wood to hold the barrel in >> my vice >> and it holds it quite nicely. I have been using a brass punch and a >> pretty >> big ball peen hammer to hit the punch. I have tried going both >> directions >> with no success. I have no idea if loctite was used when the blade >> sight was >> installed. If there was a way to super cool the sight without cooling >> the >> barrel it might loosen it up but since the sight is so small if I put >> dry >> ice on it the barrel would probably cool down too. From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 08:50:03 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:50:03 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail gun sight.... In-Reply-To: <0KTS00IC1P2RN8X8@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0B71DF5D425E43E5B27C5CB18F2CAFB8@Digilink1> <0KTS00IC1P2RN8X8@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: *Kroil and patience . . * ** *Soak a rag with kroil and use Saran wrap to keep it in wet contact with the dovetail for a day or two . . then start with the brass drift . . . a few hammer hits every day both ways and repeat while keeping the sight soaked.* ** *If ruining the sight part is not a problem, try applying a few hits with an air hammer each way . . there's something about resonance that works wonders on loosening parts. * From jibjib at att.net Sat Nov 28 16:02:22 2009 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:02:22 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail gun sight.... In-Reply-To: References: <0B71DF5D425E43E5B27C5CB18F2CAFB8@Digilink1><0KTS00IC1P2RN8X8@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Kroil and patience helped me remove a lot of parts from my 1960 Triumph TR3 that were last tightened when the bloke on the Triumph assembly line torqued them down for the first time. I also found that gently heating the part, just about as hot as you can hold, then spraying with Kroil accelerated the process significantly by helping the Kroil penetrate, but does not affect the metal at all. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Elton E. (Tony) Clark Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 7:50 AM To: Steven Trovato Cc: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail gun sight.... *Kroil and patience . . * ** *Soak a rag with kroil and use Saran wrap to keep it in wet contact with the dovetail for a day or two . . then start with the brass drift . . . a few hammer hits every day both ways and repeat while keeping the sight soaked.* ** *If ruining the sight part is not a problem, try applying a few hits with an air hammer each way . . there's something about resonance that works wonders on loosening parts. * You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From coles at colesnurseries.com Sat Nov 28 16:46:27 2009 From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:46:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wood lathe Message-ID: I have inherited a craftsman wood lathe. Coincidently, my kids kicked a soccer ball and brought two of the rungs in my wife's antique bench. I have not found a source to buy the rungs so I decided to try to make them. I bought 1" poplar dowel sticks to try to turn. I didn't think it would be that difficult !!! I am have trouble getting the dowel perfectly square on the lathe. Also, the drive end of the lathe has a point and a star shape which I guess is to hold the wood when turning it. I can't seem to find any instruction for the lathe. Can anyone help with some basics for wood turning as well as some tips for my situation ?? Thanks, Dan PS I wouldn't be opposed to buying the rungs if anyone was a recommended source. Nothing special , about 22" long, one inch in the middle with three lines. Tapers down to 3/4" on either end. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Nov 28 20:05:13 2009 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:05:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wood lathe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CE51EAB2EB541BC857963ED25E33671@EricJRussellPC> It will be very difficult to start with dowels and get them aligned. Instead start with slightly oversize turning blanks (I usually eight side them - making long octagons) and turn that into your desired shape. Also, I do not know off hand the turning properties of poplar. It may or may not be a good species for turning. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- > I bought 1" poplar dowel sticks to try to turn. From darmstrong at nexicom.net Sat Nov 28 21:28:54 2009 From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 23:28:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: wood lathe Message-ID: <200911290428.nAT4Srlk009809@smtp.nexicom.net> Would something like this help to fine the centers of the dowels? http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2003046/931/Zero-Zero-Center-Finder.aspx or a more accurate version: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=43205&cat=1,330,49237 Lee Valley sells by mail order in the US in US $ Doug Armstrong -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 6:46 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] wood lathe I have inherited a craftsman wood lathe. Coincidently, my kids kicked a soccer ball and brought two of the rungs in my wife's antique bench. I have not found a source to buy the rungs so I decided to try to make them. I bought 1" poplar dowel sticks to try to turn. I didn't think it would be that difficult !!! I am have trouble getting the dowel perfectly square on the lathe. Also, the drive end of the lathe has a point and a star shape which I guess is to hold the wood when turning it. I can't seem to find any instruction for the lathe. Can anyone help with some basics for wood turning as well as some tips for my situation ?? Thanks, Dan PS I wouldn't be opposed to buying the rungs if anyone was a recommended source. Nothing special , about 22" long, one inch in the middle with three lines. Tapers down to 3/4" on either end. You are subscribed as darmstrong at nexicom.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.84/2530 - Release Date: 11/28/09 02:45:00 From pethier at comcast.net Sat Nov 28 22:02:19 2009 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:02:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Shark Steamer? In-Reply-To: <200911290428.nAT4Srlk009809@smtp.nexicom.net> Message-ID: <1590736658.7659471259470939976.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Anybody used these things? Snake oil or useful tool? http://www.sharksc630promo.com/? Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://forum.mnautox.com/forums http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier From pethier at comcast.net Sat Nov 28 22:04:20 2009 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:04:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: wood lathe In-Reply-To: <200911290428.nAT4Srlk009809@smtp.nexicom.net> Message-ID: <607308035.7659701259471060685.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ----- "Doug Armstrong" wrote: > From: "Doug Armstrong" > To: "Shop Talk List" , "Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)" > > Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:28:54 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: wood lathe > > Would something like this help to fine the centers of the dowels? Yes. I have a center head for my Starrett square which does the same thing. Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://forum.mnautox.com/forums http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier From eric at megageek.com Sun Nov 29 05:07:27 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 07:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shark Steamer? In-Reply-To: <1590736658.7659471259470939976.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I've had something like it for years. It works OK at best. There were a few times when I needed it and it worked great (I had to steam a Stetson so I could shape it, etc.) If you get it cheap enough and you don't have high expectations, it can be OK. Moose "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson pethier at comcast.net Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 11/29/2009 00:23 To shop-talk at autox.team.net cc Subject [Shop-talk] Shark Steamer? Anybody used these things? Snake oil or useful tool? http://www.sharksc630promo.com/? Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L 1979 Caterham 7 1994 Miata C-package 2004 Suburban 8.1 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk http://forum.mnautox.com/forums http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From pat at hornesystemstx.com Sun Nov 29 11:00:21 2009 From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:00:21 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shark Steamer? In-Reply-To: <1590736658.7659471259470939976.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1590736658.7659471259470939976.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B12B6B5.6040307@hornesystemstx.com> I have no experience with the Shark Steamer, but did have a couple rechargeable Shark Hand vacuums. The Vacuums were pretty poor, only running for 5 minutes or less before needing recharging. The manual said they would run for over 30 minutes. I guess they don't consider how long there is suction, but only how long the motor turns in their calculations. All that goes to say that I wouldn't consider another Shark product, but if I found something similar from another manufacturer at a good price, I'd go for it. I actually have a steam cleaner such as this on my wish list. We have an apartment we rent out by the week or month and thought it might be a good way to prepare the counters, toilet, tub, sinks and wood floor for the next renter. Might be something to try on my car engine which I need to pull and rebuild. Peace, Pat Thusly spake pethier at comcast.net, On 11/28/2009 11:02 PM: > Anybody used these things? > > Snake oil or useful tool? > > http://www.sharksc630promo.com/? > > Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA > 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L > 1979 Caterham 7 > 1994 Miata C-package > 2004 Suburban 8.1 > 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4 > http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk > http://forum.mnautox.com/forums > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --