From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Jun  1 06:12:55 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:12:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue
In-Reply-To: <4A235AB3.1030604@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <2038231535.15811951243858375381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

he recently had the timing belt replaced. I don't know if that requires r&r-ing that bolt on the 1.6, though. I don't think it did on our '93 2.0 626. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trevor Boicey" <trevor at boicey.com> 
To: "Miq Millman" <miq at bigllama.com> 
Cc: "scott hall" <scott.hall at comcast.net>, shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 12:36:03 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue 

Miq Millman wrote: 
> Scott - 
> 
> I'd bet a dollar your boss' car is suffering from the nose pulley failure 
> common to early 1.6l Miatas. 

My wife has a 1.6L miata with the infamous "sport lightweight 
crankshaft". 

Following the wisdom of the internet, I have never removed that front 
bolt, ignoring the scheduled oil seal service, and it has been fine. 

The bolt USUALLY fails some time after it has been removed, and then 
either torqued incorrectly or just bad luck. 

So to the original poster, was the crank bolt recently removed? 

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  1 09:04:48 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:04:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue
In-Reply-To: <2038231535.15811951243858375381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2038231535.15811951243858375381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <347906.97485.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Could also be a misplaced timing belt. One notch the wrong way can
cause some interesting things to occur. BTDT when I replaced
the belt myself, but on a second gen Miata.

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



----- Original Message ----
From: "scott.hall at comcast.net" <scott.hall at comcast.net>
To: Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 8:12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue

he recently had the timing belt replaced. I don't know if that requires r&r-ing that bolt on the 1.6, though. I don't think it did on our '93 2.0 626. 

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Jun  1 09:22:02 2009
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:22:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue
In-Reply-To: <2038231535.15811951243858375381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2038231535.15811951243858375381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4A23F21A.6060507@boicey.com>

scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
> he recently had the timing belt replaced.  I don't know if that requires 
> r&r-ing that bolt on the 1.6, though.  I don't think it did on our '93 
> 2.0 626.

   When I did the timing belt, it is easily done without removing that 
bolt. The scheduled service lists replacement of the front oil seal at 
the same time though, which requires opening the bolt.

   So.... ? :)

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Jun  1 10:05:11 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:05:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <C647DA81.2C0E%kennedybc@comcast.net>
References: <4A228510.1030105@gmail.com> <C647DA81.2C0E%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703008FAD@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Brian Kennedy wrote:
>
> A big enough dry well should do the job. How about attaching it
> to a soaker hose? Is there something nearby that needs watering?

I cleverly did this many years ago.  I attached some clear plastic
tubing to the outlet on the outside of the house (used a couple of
adapters to size the plastic pipe down to the tubing size).

Then I ran the other end of the tube to a flowerbed along the fence so
that we wouldn't have to water there anymore.  Big mistake.  The AC
makes a LOT of water, and it ended up drowning the plants.

However, this would work better if you did in fact attach it to a soaker
hose to spread out the runoff.

But in any case, attaching a hose/tube to the outlet can easily be done
to re-route the water to another place.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From bottorff25 at verizon.net  Mon Jun  1 11:25:55 2009
From: bottorff25 at verizon.net (bottorff25 at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:25:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1455023353.1407282.1243877155452.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>

/Y7Lb7Q: Permission denied

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Jun  1 15:19:18 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:19:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue
In-Reply-To: <4A23F21A.6060507@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <971418016.16115531243891158588.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

so this bolt does what? it trashes the crank? I thought we'd r&r the plug wires, o2 sensor and erg valve first, then worry about more expensive things. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trevor Boicey" <trevor at boicey.com> 
To: "scott hall" <scott.hall at comcast.net> 
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 11:22:02 AM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue 

scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: 
> he recently had the timing belt replaced. I don't know if that requires 
> r&r-ing that bolt on the 1.6, though. I don't think it did on our '93 
> 2.0 626. 

When I did the timing belt, it is easily done without removing that 
bolt. The scheduled service lists replacement of the front oil seal at 
the same time though, which requires opening the bolt. 

So.... ? :) 

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jun  1 16:22:01 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:22:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue
References: <4A23F21A.6060507@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <0KKK002OGZHJBX10@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

The problem is that the pulley can move slightly, which bashes back 
and forth on the key.  This gradually damages the slot in the 
crankshaft.  Check miata.net for more information.  Here's one article:

http://www.miata.net/garage/crankshaft.html

My 1990 Miata has around 150K on it, with no crank problems so 
far.  As for the timing belt being one tooth off, in my experience 
this makes a car run worse than you are describing.  As for the EGR 
valve, it is my understanding that early Miatas (with the 1.6 engine) 
do not have one.

The people on this list are, of course, all brilliant :-) but for 
Miata specific info I would look to miata.net and the miata mailing 
list, including the extensive archives:

http://list.realbig.com/pipermail/miata/

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 05:19 PM 6/1/2009, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
>so this bolt does what? it trashes the crank? I thought we'd r&r the 
>plug wires, o2 sensor and erg valve first, then worry about more 
>expensive things.

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Jun  1 20:09:56 2009
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 22:09:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] mazda miata issue
In-Reply-To: <971418016.16115531243891158588.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <971418016.16115531243891158588.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4A2489F4.1080408@boicey.com>

scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
> so this bolt does what? it trashes the crank? I thought we'd r&r the
> plug wires, o2 sensor and erg valve first, then worry about more
> expensive things.

   Well CHECKING if this is the problem is really easy, and if it is the 
problem, then you know the solution, so might as well look at it. You'll 
know the answer before you even change the first plug wire.

   From my recollection the front of the crank has a limited contact 
area and this bolt can work itself out, which causes the crank pulley to 
wobble and destroy it's keyway and eventually cause terrible acceleration.

   The updated crank has a little more "beef" to it. Again, follow the 
links to get the real details, but that's about it.

   The current wisdom, which I follow, is never touch the bolt unless 
you HAVE to, then if you do, buy a new bolt, torque it very carefully, 
and hope for the best.

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Jun  2 03:46:20 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:46:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Words of Wisdom needed
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20090531165316.0347c678@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002801c9e366$fbe3cef0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Stick arc with an iron welding rod is how most folks with truck weld up 
cracked axle tubes.  Clean it well, bevel the edges of the fracture, weld 
from the outside.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Shipley" <shiples at comcast.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 8:13 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding Words of Wisdom needed


> I'm trying to dig my Lotus 7 out of the garage (oops shop!) and get it 
> running.
>
> There was a moment of sadness when looking at the rear axle housing.
> It's originally out of a Triumph Standard 10 I believe.
>
> Anyway it looks like any other rear axle but the back part of the axle
> where the gears reside is covered by a formed steel cover that
> is welded to the axle casting.  This cover has about a two inch crack,
> on the upper part so the lube is still contained.
>
> I have a choice of welders; gas, mig, and tig.  Unfortunately I am stuck 
> with one weldor, me.
>
> So I'm thinkin'....about welding up the crack...and just how to do it.
> From the outside, from the inside, from bothsides....
> should I drill at the ends of the crack or will the welding alone
> stop the progression?  I'm pretty sure there are a variety of ways
> to fix this, I'm interested in your thoughts on how you would approach 
> this.

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Jun  2 11:18:32 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:18:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
Message-ID: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl>

I'm working with wiring in an older building.  Some of the outlets do not have
a grounding, bare/green, wire in the box.
I want to provide the user with an outlet which will accept a three prong
plug.

As I remember NEC from about twenty years ago...
if I put a GFCI outlet as the first outlet in the circuit, I can use ground
outlet in the rest of the circuit even though there isn't a grounding wire.

Is this still the case?

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA


'63 TR3B TCF587L


That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!


See it moves!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 14:46:15 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:46:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906021346l1e5b593dgd9c62073b269582@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm working with wiring in an older building. B Some of the outlets do not
have
> a grounding, bare/green, wire in the box.
> I want to provide the user with an outlet which will accept a three prong
> plug.
>
> As I remember NEC from about twenty years ago...
> if I put a GFCI outlet as the first outlet in the circuit, I can use ground
> outlet in the rest of the circuit even though there isn't a grounding wire.
>
> Is this still the case?
>

Some places.  You have to label the outlets "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND" and
"GFCI protected".  (I've never seen any labeled, until a couple months
ago, when an inspector pointed this out (and refused to sign off on)
in a building a client uses.)  It's more complicated than this, I
think, too.  (It may be that if you're providing ground plugs other
than at the GFCI, you need ground between the GFCI and the new plugs)
Check your local code!

>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun  2 16:01:34 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 15:01:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906021346l1e5b593dgd9c62073b269582@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl>
	<2400a5d40906021346l1e5b593dgd9c62073b269582@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <160F2EB0265A4D0BA4A7BF601E683BDD@jdnet.deere.com>

> (It may be that if you're providing ground plugs other
> than at the GFCI, you need ground between the GFCI and the new plugs)

ISTR the NEC didn't require this; but I sure wouldn't want a house that was
wired that way.  

In effect, not having the safety ground connected back to the GFCI would
mean that an appliance plugged into a new plug could have a short between
hot and the case (safety ground) that would not be detected until someone
touched it and completed the circuit.  Call me old-fashioned, but I just
don't trust a GFCI that much.

-- Randall 

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Jun  2 18:08:26 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:08:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
In-Reply-To: <160F2EB0265A4D0BA4A7BF601E683BDD@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl>
	<2400a5d40906021346l1e5b593dgd9c62073b269582@mail.gmail.com>
	<160F2EB0265A4D0BA4A7BF601E683BDD@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4A25BEFA.7010906@hornesystemstx.com>

I thought that you could use a GFCI on a two wire set up, but you 
couldn't add any down-stream outlets.
That is, that each 3 wire outlet needed to be a GFCI. I don't have my 
code book here, but will check it
soon.

And, as someone already said, check with your local authority.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall, On 6/2/2009 5:01 PM:
>> (It may be that if you're providing ground plugs other
>> than at the GFCI, you need ground between the GFCI and the new plugs)
>>     
>
> ISTR the NEC didn't require this; but I sure wouldn't want a house that was
> wired that way.  
>
> In effect, not having the safety ground connected back to the GFCI would
> mean that an appliance plugged into a new plug could have a short between
> hot and the case (safety ground) that would not be detected until someone
> touched it and completed the circuit.  Call me old-fashioned, but I just
> don't trust a GFCI that much.
>
> -- Randall 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Jun  2 20:44:18 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:44:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
In-Reply-To: <4A25BEFA.7010906@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl>
	<2400a5d40906021346l1e5b593dgd9c62073b269582@mail.gmail.com>
	<160F2EB0265A4D0BA4A7BF601E683BDD@jdnet.deere.com> 
	<4A25BEFA.7010906@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W21132BCA7B2C6C345422EDE14A0@phx.gbl>

Listers,



The shorting to the item's shell was the part that bothered me, but I don't
think that connecting the grounding wire back to the GFCI would help.  From
what I found on the net and want I remember, the GFCI  compares the current in
the black and white wires.

If they do not match, it shuts down the circuit.  Nothing  I found says
anything about checking the grounding wire.  I think even if you connected all
the grounds togeather, they would still be just floating.  That would not be
any better than not having them connected.



At this point my only choices are to leave it as a old style non-grounded
circuit or make it a GFCI protected circuit.  I think the GFCI is the better
option.  I will call the county tomorrow.



Thanks for everyone's input.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

'63 TR3B TCF587L

That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

See it moves!




> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:08:26 -0500
> From: pat at hornesystemstx.com
> To: tr3driver at ca.rr.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
>
> I thought that you could use a GFCI on a two wire set up, but you
> couldn't add any down-stream outlets.
> That is, that each 3 wire outlet needed to be a GFCI. I don't have my
> code book here, but will check it
> soon.
>
> And, as someone already said, check with your local authority.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Thusly spake Randall, On 6/2/2009 5:01 PM:
> >> (It may be that if you're providing ground plugs other
> >> than at the GFCI, you need ground between the GFCI and the new plugs)
> >>
> >
> > ISTR the NEC didn't require this; but I sure wouldn't want a house that
was
> > wired that way.
> >
> > In effect, not having the safety ground connected back to the GFCI would
> > mean that an appliance plugged into a new plug could have a short between
> > hot and the case (safety ground) that would not be detected until someone
> > touched it and completed the circuit. Call me old-fashioned, but I just
> > don't trust a GFCI that much.
> >
> > -- Randall
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
> >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> > http://www.team.net/archive
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
> (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 21:51:48 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:51:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W21132BCA7B2C6C345422EDE14A0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl>
	<2400a5d40906021346l1e5b593dgd9c62073b269582@mail.gmail.com>
	<160F2EB0265A4D0BA4A7BF601E683BDD@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4A25BEFA.7010906@hornesystemstx.com>
	<BAY123-W21132BCA7B2C6C345422EDE14A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906022051r7b567e6nf3c270146e34823@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Rich White <rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Listers,
>
>
>
> The shorting to the item's shell was the part that bothered me, but I don't
> think that connecting the grounding wire back to the GFCI would help.
B From
> what I found on the net and want I remember, the GFCI B compares the current
in
> the black and white wires.
>
> If they do not match, it shuts down the circuit. B Nothing B I found says
> anything about checking the grounding wire. B I think even if you connected
all
> the grounds togeather, they would still be just floating. B That would not
be
> any better than not having them connected.
>

That's correct: GFCI compares the hot and the neutral currents.  If
they're different (more than the spec for the GFCI; you have to allow
some difference for real equipment), it trips.  A dead short from hot
to case won't draw any current until something provides a path to
earth.  Then the GFCI will see the difference and trip; if there were
a real ground, the short would draw current, and trip the GFCI.  This
is why you're required to label the outlets.  I'm not a big fan of
GFCI used like this, and would much rather have the code not allow it.

(Incidentally, in some places a GFCI is called an RCD for "Residual
current detector"


>
>
> At this point my only choices are to leave it as a old style non-grounded
> circuit or make it a GFCI protected circuit. B I think the GFCI is the
better
> option. B I will call the county tomorrow.

Can you not run a new circuit?


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Jun  3 06:54:36 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:54:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] residentual wiring question
References: <BAY123-W3661AF67100697810A0C86E14D0@phx.gbl><2400a5d40906021346l1e5b593dgd9c62073b269582@mail.gmail.com><160F2EB0265A4D0BA4A7BF601E683BDD@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4A25BEFA.7010906@hornesystemstx.com>
	<BAY123-W21132BCA7B2C6C345422EDE14A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <837B81C051FD4366AF36CC12960B04D2@KARL>

One (contrived but effective) method to improve the situation would be to 
make a local ground to a water pipe, etc. for that portion of the circuit. 
As long as the local ground in that area was NOT interconnected to the main 
system's ground or bonded to neutral, it would function safely just as a 
subpanel in a separate building.  Can't see any reason it wouldn't be just 
as safe as a normal system.

I'm too lazy to drag through the NEC on this, but I'd guess it's not 
officially permitted.

Karl




> The shorting to the item's shell was the part that bothered me, but I 
> don't
> think that connecting the grounding wire back to the GFCI would help. 
> From
> what I found on the net and want I remember, the GFCI  compares the 
> current in
> the black and white wires.
>
> If they do not match, it shuts down the circuit.  Nothing  I found says
> anything about checking the grounding wire.  I think even if you connected 
> all
> the grounds togeather, they would still be just floating.  That would not 
> be
> any better than not having them connected.
>
>
>
> At this point my only choices are to leave it as a old style non-grounded
> circuit or make it a GFCI protected circuit.  I think the GFCI is the 
> better
> option.  I will call the county tomorrow.

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Jun  3 11:49:25 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:49:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
Message-ID: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the situation.  We recently bought a Bobcat 610 skid steer.  We
got it at a very good price because someone sabotaged it (not me!) by
pouring dirt down into the fuel tank.  Hence the entire fuel system
was gummed up with mud when the owner tried starting it.  The fuel
tank is built into the left side of the frame and has a 1/8" pipe plug
at the bottom for draining purposes.  As expected from something this
old the plug is frozen in place and all efforts to get it to unscrew
have only resulted in the plug head to be pretty much non existent
now.

I realize I can syphon the old gas out but that will leave all of the
mud and gunk in the bottom of the tank on the outside near one of the
axles.  What I'm thinking about doing is grinding the plug head flush
with the frame and then drilling through it with a 1/8" bit.  In order
to keep sparks to a minimum or non existent I'm considering filling
the tank with water prior to drilling the hole.

Once the hole is drilled and the tank is empty I would proceed with
enlarging the hole until the drain plug has been successfully removed.
 I could the proceed with a thorough flushing of the tank to get the
mud and gunk out.  I'm sure getting the gas/water mix to drain through
the 1/8" hole won't be easy but I'm not sure what else to do.

Does this sound like a workable solution?

Thanks,

Brad

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Jun  3 12:10:30 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:10:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001201c9e476$94c4f760$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Trying to flush mud out of a tank through a small hole in the bottom doesn't 
sound like a good plan to me.  I'd rather drain the tank via siphon, remove 
the tank, and hose it out through the filler.  That's what I've done every 
time I've had to clean a tank out of mud or leaves or whatever was in there 
that shouldn't have been.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun  3 12:20:25 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:20:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A26BEE9.9070402@hornesystemstx.com>

Be that as it may, adding even a gallon or so ow water will isolate the 
area where you will be drilling from the fuel if you let it sit for a 
few hours before drilling to let the water sink to the bottom of the tank.

Use a left hand drill bit so that the heat and vibration might help to 
loosen the plug as you drill.

Good luck.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Brad Kahler, On 6/3/2009 12:49 PM:
> Here's the situation.  We recently bought a Bobcat 610 skid steer.  We
> got it at a very good price because someone sabotaged it (not me!) by
> pouring dirt down into the fuel tank.  Hence the entire fuel system
> was gummed up with mud when the owner tried starting it.  The fuel
> tank is built into the left side of the frame and has a 1/8" pipe plug
> at the bottom for draining purposes.  As expected from something this
> old the plug is frozen in place and all efforts to get it to unscrew
> have only resulted in the plug head to be pretty much non existent
> now.
>
> I realize I can syphon the old gas out but that will leave all of the
> mud and gunk in the bottom of the tank on the outside near one of the
> axles.  What I'm thinking about doing is grinding the plug head flush
> with the frame and then drilling through it with a 1/8" bit.  In order
> to keep sparks to a minimum or non existent I'm considering filling
> the tank with water prior to drilling the hole.
>
> Once the hole is drilled and the tank is empty I would proceed with
> enlarging the hole until the drain plug has been successfully removed.
>  I could the proceed with a thorough flushing of the tank to get the
> mud and gunk out.  I'm sure getting the gas/water mix to drain through
> the 1/8" hole won't be easy but I'm not sure what else to do.
>
> Does this sound like a workable solution?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Jun  3 12:33:47 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:33:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <4A26BEE9.9070402@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A26BEE9.9070402@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <f99bbf590906031133k70ff56bey5464e04fc3dc1734@mail.gmail.com>

Pat, I forgot about the fact that the water will since to the bottom.
Makes me feel a lot more comfortable about the water idea.  I did get
a reply about pumping exhaust fumes from a vehicle into the tank while
performing the drilling.  I like that idea because I wouldn't have to
worry about having to get the water out of the tank.

Thanks!

Brad


On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
> Be that as it may, adding even a gallon or so ow water will isolate the
area
> where you will be drilling from the fuel if you let it sit for a few hours
> before drilling to let the water sink to the bottom of the tank.
>
> Use a left hand drill bit so that the heat and vibration might help to
> loosen the plug as you drill.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Thusly spake Brad Kahler, On 6/3/2009 12:49 PM:
>>
>> Here's the situation.  We recently bought a Bobcat 610 skid steer.  We
>> got it at a very good price because someone sabotaged it (not me!) by
>> pouring dirt down into the fuel tank.  Hence the entire fuel system
>> was gummed up with mud when the owner tried starting it.  The fuel
>> tank is built into the left side of the frame and has a 1/8" pipe plug
>> at the bottom for draining purposes.  As expected from something this
>> old the plug is frozen in place and all efforts to get it to unscrew
>> have only resulted in the plug head to be pretty much non existent
>> now.
>>
>> I realize I can syphon the old gas out but that will leave all of the
>> mud and gunk in the bottom of the tank on the outside near one of the
>> axles.  What I'm thinking about doing is grinding the plug head flush
>> with the frame and then drilling through it with a 1/8" bit.  In order
>> to keep sparks to a minimum or non existent I'm considering filling
>> the tank with water prior to drilling the hole.
>>
>> Once the hole is drilled and the tank is empty I would proceed with
>> enlarging the hole until the drain plug has been successfully removed.
>>  I could the proceed with a thorough flushing of the tank to get the
>> mud and gunk out.  I'm sure getting the gas/water mix to drain through
>> the 1/8" hole won't be easy but I'm not sure what else to do.
>>
>> Does this sound like a workable solution?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brad
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice            5026 FM
2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Jun  3 12:36:08 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:36:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <001201c9e476$94c4f760$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<001201c9e476$94c4f760$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <f99bbf590906031136w11b63364h6455a4596b87fb23@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to take the gas tank off do as you suggest but this tank is
made from plate steel and is an integral part of the frame.  The isn't
a chance in the world of me tipping over the bobcat to drain the water
out of the tank!

Brad


On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Nolan <opposumking at verizon.net> wrote:
> Trying to flush mud out of a tank through a small hole in the bottom
doesn't
> sound like a good plan to me.  I'd rather drain the tank via siphon, remove
> the tank, and hose it out through the filler.  That's what I've done every
> time I've had to clean a tank out of mud or leaves or whatever was in there
> that shouldn't have been.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Jun  3 12:35:57 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:35:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <001201c9e476$94c4f760$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<001201c9e476$94c4f760$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970305FCDC@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Nolan
>
> I'd rather drain the tank via siphon, remove
> the tank, and hose it out through the filler.

That would be a preferred way, but I think you might have missed an
important fact from the original post:

"The fuel tank is built into the left side of the frame"

I have not other suggestions other than what was in the first post,
unless of course you can tip the thing over and shake it all out...

Tim Mullen

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Jun  3 12:50:03 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:50:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<001201c9e476$94c4f760$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<f99bbf590906031136w11b63364h6455a4596b87fb23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c9e47c$1c3039d0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Are you really sure you're really seeing it right?  For I've got to admit, I 
don't think I've ever seen a fuel tank that could not be removed.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Kahler" <brad.kahler at 141.com>
To: "Nolan" <opposumking at verizon.net>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank


I'd love to take the gas tank off do as you suggest but this tank is
made from plate steel and is an integral part of the frame.  The isn't
a chance in the world of me tipping over the bobcat to drain the water
out of the tank!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  3 13:40:09 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:40:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C55FCB5F8C7340329502401AA6633106@jdnet.deere.com>

Brad,

1/8" NPT is actually a fair-sized hole, closer to 3/8".  Should be plenty
unless there was gravel mixed with the mud. I think your plan is eminently
workable.

Drilling by hand, I doubt you'll reach ignition temperature for gasoline
anyway.  I've seen a cigarette put out in the stuff.  But a gallon or two of
water wouldn't hurt anything, JIC.  A little cutting oil will help keep the
bit and swarf cool, too.

-- Randall 

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Jun  3 13:57:08 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:57:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <000e01c9e47c$1c3039d0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<001201c9e476$94c4f760$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<f99bbf590906031136w11b63364h6455a4596b87fb23@mail.gmail.com>
	<000e01c9e47c$1c3039d0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <f99bbf590906031257o39544cbcu6164988d21d27cc7@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, a lot of heavy equipment uses the hollow frame work for hydraulic
and fuel tanks.  My backhoe uses the loader framework as the reservoir
for the hydraulic system.  Just the way its done...........


On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Nolan <opposumking at verizon.net> wrote:
> Are you really sure you're really seeing it right?  For I've got to admit,
I
> don't think I've ever seen a fuel tank that could not be removed.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Kahler" <brad.kahler at 141.com>
> To: "Nolan" <opposumking at verizon.net>
> Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
>
>
> I'd love to take the gas tank off do as you suggest but this tank is
> made from plate steel and is an integral part of the frame.  The isn't
> a chance in the world of me tipping over the bobcat to drain the water
> out of the tank!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From shiples at comcast.net  Wed Jun  3 14:36:16 2009
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:36:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <C55FCB5F8C7340329502401AA6633106@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090603132611.03cd8e98@mail.comcast.net>

>Drilling by hand, I doubt you'll reach ignition temperature for gasoline
>anyway.  I've seen a cigarette put out in the stuff.  But a gallon or two of
>water wouldn't hurt anything, JIC.

It's not the gas, it's the gas and air that's dangerous.

As a child I remember throwing lighted matches into a bucket of gas.
They just go out.  A tank, part full of fuel is dangerous.  The tank needs
to be full of something that will keep any air/oxygen away from the
ignition source.  And when you get the plug drilled out, do I need to
remind you not to be smoking or sparking when the gas leaks out?

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Jun  3 16:24:51 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:24:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com><f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20090603132611.03cd8e98@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <38949A3D4797436FAD0DD89BCB6D6119@behavioral.com>

Given that nitrogen is all the rage for filling tires, you could take it to 
the local tire place and have them fill it up. Or maybe you have a tig 
welder and could use the argon to purge the container.

But all that seems to be a lot more work that it is worth. Assuming the plug 
is in the lowest part of the tank - would it make sense to put the plug 
anywhere else - the water idea seems to be the most practical for the 
drilling and flushing of the dirt, followed by a gallon of alcohol from the 
hardware store to flush what little water might remain, a fill of gas, a can 
of seafoam and be done with it.

But that is just my personal opinion and is probably not even worth the 
electricity your computer used while you viewed the email.

> >Drilling by hand, I doubt you'll reach ignition temperature for gasoline
>>anyway.  I've seen a cigarette put out in the stuff.  But a gallon or two 
>>of
>>water wouldn't hurt anything, JIC.
>
> It's not the gas, it's the gas and air that's dangerous.
>
> As a child I remember throwing lighted matches into a bucket of gas.
> They just go out.  A tank, part full of fuel is dangerous.  The tank needs
> to be full of something that will keep any air/oxygen away from the
> ignition source.  And when you get the plug drilled out, do I need to
> remind you not to be smoking or sparking when the gas leaks out?

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Wed Jun  3 16:44:56 2009
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:44:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?
Message-ID: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>

I've got an instrument face to remove.  The lens is 
held in by a "ring nut" that has four external slots 
(90 degrees apart) that need a socket type wrench 
with four matching "tangs" that would engage into the 
slots.  I cannot use a hinged half-circle wrench that 
would be parallel to the face.  Anybody remember the 
name of the type of drive I'm looking for?
Thanks.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jun  3 17:01:11 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:01:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing bits of rod and tubing?
Message-ID: <552931.46616.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here's what I finally did:  I took a piece of 8" cardboard tubing (the kind
sold for concrete forms) about 30 inches long and glued one end to a 12"x12"
piece of plywood.  It works great.

Doug

--- On Wed, 5/6/09, Doug Braun
<doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> From: Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com>
>
Subject: Storing bits of rod and tubing?
> To: "Shop-Talk List"
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 10:48 PM
> Hello,
>
> I'm trying to clean up my garage, and I have a big bunch of
> pieces of
metal tubing, angle iron, threaded rod, plastic
> pipe, wooden dowels, etc. 
They range from about 2 to 4
> feet long.
> 
> Does anyone have a cool way to
store this type of stuff, so
> it does not take up too much space, remains
tidy, and the
> shorter bits do not get totally hidden by the longer ones?
>
> Doug

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jun  3 17:03:31 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:03:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <f99bbf590906031133k70ff56bey5464e04fc3dc1734@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A26BEE9.9070402@hornesystemstx.com>
	<f99bbf590906031133k70ff56bey5464e04fc3dc1734@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906031603u112a4c73l8cd3d3624e2648b7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:
> Pat, I forgot about the fact that the water will since to the bottom.
> Makes me feel a lot more comfortable about the water idea. B I did get
> a reply about pumping exhaust fumes from a vehicle into the tank while
> performing the drilling. B I like that idea because I wouldn't have to
> worry about having to get the water out of the tank.

Ah.  Yes.  The old "fill the gas tank with an explosive gas" trick!
Brilliant!

Siphon the tank.  Fill it with water.  Drill away.  Drain the water
from the hole you just drilled.  Sluice the tank.  I rather suspect
you're not going to get this tank clean through an 1/8" pipe fitting,
but you're sure not going to just by draining it.  It's likely to
require 10 or 12 volumes of water to rinse it cleanish.  The drain
should be at the lowest point, so I wouldn't worry too much about the
residual water.

Make sure there are several gas filters on it, idealy including a
sediment bowl as the first stage.  I'll bet this tank is rusting, too,
and will continue to shed rust into the fuel.





--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun  3 18:18:51 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:18:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?
In-Reply-To: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>
References: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <4A2712EB.4010407@hornesystemstx.com>

Steve,

Most of the wrenches of that type I've seen only have two arms or pins. 
They are called "spanners". You can try making your own with a fairly 
thick piece of aluminum or other metal. drill and tap two or 4 holes in 
it where screws inserted through the holes would line up with the slots 
in the nut.. You can grind the tips of the screws so that they fit 
snugly into the nut.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA, On 6/3/2009 5:44 PM:
> I've got an instrument face to remove.  The lens is held in by a "ring 
> nut" that has four external slots (90 degrees apart) that need a 
> socket type wrench with four matching "tangs" that would engage into 
> the slots.  I cannot use a hinged half-circle wrench that would be 
> parallel to the face.  Anybody remember the name of the type of drive 
> I'm looking for?
> Thanks.
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jun  3 18:23:04 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?
Message-ID: <757209.7950.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A spanner wrench?  Look for places that sell camera repair tools.

Doug

---
On Wed, 6/3/09, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA <gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:
> From: Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA <gsteve at hammatt.com>
> Subject:
[Shop-talk] type of wrench?
> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>
Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 6:44 PM
> I've got an instrument face to
>
remove.  The lens is held in by a "ring nut" that has
> four external slots
(90 degrees apart) that need a socket
> type wrench with four matching "tangs"
that would engage
> into the slots.  I cannot use a hinged half-circle
>
wrench that would be parallel to the face.  Anybody
> remember the name of the
type of drive I'm looking for?
> Thanks.

From jmitch at snet.net  Wed Jun  3 19:21:53 2009
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:21:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?
In-Reply-To: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>
References: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <4A2721B1.5000209@snet.net>

There's a guy on ebay that sells quite a variety of bezel tools and may 
have what you need.  Here's on of his items 200319405455   John Mitchell

Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
> I've got an instrument face to remove.  The lens is held in by a "ring 
> nut" that has four external slots (90 degrees apart) that need a 
> socket type wrench with four matching "tangs" that would engage into 
> the slots.  I cannot use a hinged half-circle wrench that would be 
> parallel to the face.  Anybody remember the name of the type of drive 
> I'm looking for?
> Thanks.
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jmitch at snet.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun  3 19:29:59 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:29:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?
In-Reply-To: <4A2712EB.4010407@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>
	<4A2712EB.4010407@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <018A98F6C3994596A90368AE1D4446C8@jdnet.deere.com>

> You can try making your own with a fairly
> thick piece of aluminum or other metal. drill and tap two or 4 holes in
> it where screws inserted through the holes would line up with the slots
> in the nut.. You can grind the tips of the screws so that they fit
> snugly into the nut.

Another way to tackle this is with a length of pipe or tubing the right
diameter, and cut, file or mill the edge to create the 'teeth'.  I've made
several of these for smaller items (like the bezel for the warning lights on
a TR3 dash), but it should scale up nicely.  With a carbide bit in a mill,
you can even use a cheap socket for the donor, and a ratchet to turn the
resulting tool.

-- Randall 

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Wed Jun  3 19:56:29 2009
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:56:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?
In-Reply-To: <4A2721B1.5000209@snet.net>
References: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>
	<4A2721B1.5000209@snet.net>
Message-ID: <F87E743EEF54478DB0136D165C763F19@DesktopPC>

Thanks to Pat, Doug and John
Spanner was the word I was trying to think of.
Was able to work around it, now to find an 1-1/2" dia
hole punch!
Enjoy....

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Mitchell" <jmitch at snet.net>
To: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
Cc: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?


> There's a guy on ebay that sells quite a variety of bezel tools and 
> may
> have what you need.  Here's on of his items 200319405455   John 
> Mitchell
>
> Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
>> I've got an instrument face to remove.  The lens is held in by a 
>> "ring
>> nut" that has four external slots (90 degrees apart) that need a
>> socket type wrench with four matching "tangs" that would engage 
>> into
>> the slots.  I cannot use a hinged half-circle wrench that would be
>> parallel to the face.  Anybody remember the name of the type of 
>> drive
>> I'm looking for?
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Steve Hammatt
>> Mount Vernon WA USA
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as jmitch at snet.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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06/03/09 05:53:00

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Thu Jun  4 00:18:19 2009
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 23:18:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] crud in the tank
Message-ID: <DE97A9E3A7664FA499E9CA264E0E30C5@OFFICEPC>

<<<
Here's the situation.  We recently bought a Bobcat 610 skid steer.  We
got it at a very good price because someone sabotaged it (not me!) by
pouring dirt down into the fuel tank.  Hence the entire fuel system
was gummed up with mud when the owner tried starting it.  The fuel
tank is built into the left side of the frame and has a 1/8" pipe plug
at the bottom for draining purposes.  As expected from something this
old the plug is frozen in place and all efforts to get it to unscrew
have only resulted in the plug head to be pretty much non existent
now.

I realize I can syphon the old gas out but that will leave all of the
mud and gunk in the bottom of the tank on the outside near one of the
axles.  What I'm thinking about doing is grinding the plug head flush
with the frame and then drilling through it with a 1/8" bit.  In order
to keep sparks to a minimum or non existent I'm considering filling
the tank with water prior to drilling the hole.

Once the hole is drilled and the tank is empty I would proceed with
enlarging the hole until the drain plug has been successfully removed.
 I could the proceed with a thorough flushing of the tank to get the
mud and gunk out.  I'm sure getting the gas/water mix to drain through
the 1/8" hole won't be easy but I'm not sure what else to do.
>>>

I have nothing to add to the drilling question but wanted to recommend that
you consider cleaning out the rest of the fuel system running the thing from
an external tank and see if that is all that is wrong with it.  You could
get a gas can and a hose and see how it does.  If someone went to the
trouble of trying to trash this they may have messed up other stuff
(hydraulics?  Engine? Other?).  It would be a major drag to spend a ton of
time on the fuel system and then see that they poured metal shavings into
the oil filler.

Mark.

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Jun  4 06:27:21 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:27:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906031603u112a4c73l8cd3d3624e2648b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A26BEE9.9070402@hornesystemstx.com>
	<f99bbf590906031133k70ff56bey5464e04fc3dc1734@mail.gmail.com>
	<2400a5d40906031603u112a4c73l8cd3d3624e2648b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f99bbf590906040527m5abbc9cap3301b632c3550700@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks everyone for the replies.  I believe I've got enough ideas and
suggestions now to get the job done!

It will likely be a week or two before I can tackle this problem.
I'll report back with my success or failure at that time.

Thanks!

Brad

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Thu Jun  4 08:16:18 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:16:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] type of wrench?
In-Reply-To: <018A98F6C3994596A90368AE1D4446C8@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <D47B82B68A664737A66E959FC1D995F5@DesktopPC>
	<4A2712EB.4010407@hornesystemstx.com>
	<018A98F6C3994596A90368AE1D4446C8@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906041015170.1951@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Randall wrote:
> Another way to tackle this is with a length of pipe or tubing the right 
> diameter, and cut, file or mill the edge to create the 'teeth'.  I've 
> made several of these for smaller items (like the bezel for the warning 
> lights on a TR3 dash), but it should scale up nicely.  With a carbide 
> bit in a mill, you can even use a cheap socket for the donor, and a 
> ratchet to turn the resulting tool.

I did this exact thing to make a socket for the swingarm nut on my old 
racebike.

Heat the socket red hot with a torch first, and you won't need anything 
special for the endmill.

Mark

From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Jun  5 13:46:29 2009
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:46:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling into a gas tank
In-Reply-To: <f99bbf590906040527m5abbc9cap3301b632c3550700@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f99bbf590906031049p30f2b390sfbfb93431a33a961@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A26BEE9.9070402@hornesystemstx.com>
	<f99bbf590906031133k70ff56bey5464e04fc3dc1734@mail.gmail.com>
	<2400a5d40906031603u112a4c73l8cd3d3624e2648b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<f99bbf590906040527m5abbc9cap3301b632c3550700@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A297615.6090200@b2systems.com>

  we all hope you can reply about your success

 And we also all hope that if you fail, you can still reply otherwise 
that meant it went "boom".

Brad Kahler wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the replies.  I believe I've got enough ideas and
> suggestions now to get the job done!
>
> It will likely be a week or two before I can tackle this problem.
> I'll report back with my success or failure at that time.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mikey at b2systems.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jun  5 16:25:08 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:25:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <757209.7950.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@mail.megageek.com>

Well, it's true,  you can never make a shop big enough!

I just got back from Iraq and I want to add another storage space to my 
property.

What I am looking for is a garage shelter for large items (I have a 40' 
camper and a 36' boat, plus a bunch of other smaller trailers and such to 
store.)

I found this website...

http://mdmshelters.com/

Anyone have any experience with them?

I'm looking for other manufacturers of these as well.

I'm not planning on using it as a shop, just as a "out of the elements" 
storage with lights inside.

Another question, should I pave the floor or leave it dirt?

TIA!

(It's great to be back!)

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jun  5 17:10:36 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:10:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <757209.7950.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906051610l412825eaq643a33238b792257@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Another question, should I pave the floor or leave it dirt?

Pave.  Or at least cover in substantial layer of gravel.
One of the things that does is keep moisture from coming up through
the ground, and then becoming trapped in the shelter.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jun  5 18:09:20 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:09:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A29B3B0.4010600@hornesystemstx.com>

Eric,

Welcome back!

Had no experience with these, but see a fair number of suppliers in 
gardening publications. I think I've seen them in the Northern Tool 
catalogs also. What size are you looking at.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake eric at megageek.com, On 6/5/2009 5:25 PM:
> Well, it's true,  you can never make a shop big enough!
>
> I just got back from Iraq and I want to add another storage space to my 
> property.
>
> What I am looking for is a garage shelter for large items (I have a 40' 
> camper and a 36' boat, plus a bunch of other smaller trailers and such to 
> store.)
>
> I found this website...
>
> http://mdmshelters.com/
>
> Anyone have any experience with them?
>
> I'm looking for other manufacturers of these as well.
>
> I'm not planning on using it as a shop, just as a "out of the elements" 
> storage with lights inside.
>
> Another question, should I pave the floor or leave it dirt?
>
> TIA!
>
> (It's great to be back!)
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jun  5 18:10:33 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:10:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906051610l412825eaq643a33238b792257@mail.gmail.com>
References: <757209.7950.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@mail.megageek.com>
	<2400a5d40906051610l412825eaq643a33238b792257@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A29B3F9.3050708@hornesystemstx.com>

I agree. Even with gravel, put down a thick sheet of poly first. (thick 
so the gravel doesn't punch holes in it).

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David Scheidt, On 6/5/2009 6:10 PM:
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Another question, should I pave the floor or leave it dirt?
>>     
>
> Pave.  Or at least cover in substantial layer of gravel.
> One of the things that does is keep moisture from coming up through
> the ground, and then becoming trapped in the shelter.
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Jun  6 05:25:06 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 07:25:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <757209.7950.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<OF9CC734BF.7792948B-ON852575CC.007A79D0-852575CC.007C89D3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090606071457.01ce65c8@cox.net>

At 06:25 PM 6/5/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote:

 >Well, it's true,  you can never make a shop big enough!
 >
 >I just got back from Iraq and I want to add another storage space to my
 >property.

Moose,


                                  W E L C O M E    B A C K ! ! ! !

Thanks for your service!!!

 >

 >Another question, should I pave the floor or leave it dirt?

That depends on your area.   I put up a 10'w x 12'l shed last year to 
store lawn
mowers, bikes, and car parts in.  Unfortunately, that part of the 
yard has a tendence to flood in heavy rains.  So I outlined the 
perimeter with 2 layers of
garden timbers.  Drilled and drove some very large nails spikes to hold the 2nd
layer of timber to the 1st.  Then drilled and drove some 2' long 
rebar through to
anchor the timbers to the ground and keep them from moving.  I filled the sand
box with about 4" of crush and run, then layed a cinder block 
floor.  So the top
of the floor is some 8" above the ground level.  The reason for the 
cinder block
was 2 fold, it cost a little less than a concert slab, plus if I pour 
a slab base I'd
have to have gotten a building permitt.

If you don't mind mud in your shelter, than don't worry.  But I think 
it will hold
moisture a lot longer.

A neighbor had a tent like what you are looking at to store his 
boat.  He poured
a slab in his back yard then set the ten over the slab.  He also keep 
the bottom
of the tent open about 3" to 6" for ventilation and to help keep it dry inside.

John


is some t

>TIA!
>
>(It's great to be back!)
>
>Moose
>Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as jblair1948 at cox.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun  6 05:57:35 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 07:57:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
Message-ID: <OF08C75ECE.ED318E1B-ON852575CD.0041B263-852575CD.0041B277@mail.megageek.com>

That is just it, I need help to figuring out what size.  I'm thinking in
the 40'X100' range.  But I wanted to see if anyone had a good way of
figuring out what size works best.  Maybe there is a breaking point for the
tents.


Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



-----Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com> wrote: -----


To: eric at megageek.com
From: Pat Horne <pat at hornesystemstx.com>
Date: 06/05/2009 20:09
cc: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage

Eric,

Welcome back!

Had no experience with these, but see a fair number of suppliers in
gardening publications. I think I've seen them in the Northern Tool
catalogs also. What size are you looking at.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake eric at megageek.com, On 6/5/2009 5:25 PM:
> Well, it's true,  you can never make a shop big enough!
>
> I just got back from Iraq and I want to add another storage space to my
> property.
>
> What I am looking for is a garage shelter for large items (I have a 40'
> camper and a 36' boat, plus a bunch of other smaller trailers and such to
> store.)
>
> I found this website...
>
> http://mdmshelters.com/
>
> Anyone have any experience with them?
>
> I'm looking for other manufacturers of these as well.
>
> I'm not planning on using it as a shop, just as a "out of the elements"
> storage with lights inside.
>
> Another question, should I pave the floor or leave it dirt?
>
> TIA!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Jun  6 06:58:07 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 08:58:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <OF08C75ECE.ED318E1B-ON852575CD.0041B263-852575CD.0041B277@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF08C75ECE.ED318E1B-ON852575CD.0041B263-852575CD.0041B277@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090606085443.01d0b1c8@cox.net>

At 07:57 AM 6/6/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote:

 >That is just it, I need help to figuring out what size.  I'm thinking in
 >the 40'X100' range.  But I wanted to see if anyone had a good way of
 >figuring out what size works best.  Maybe there is a breaking point for the
 >tents.

Moose,

Looking at their pricing, a double car garage costs more than 2 single ones,
they got a "double" 2 car that costs more than 2 2 car ones.  So, you might
want to think about purchasing a couple of different sizes.  Plus if something
happens to 1 you've still got the others.  The old all the eggs in one basket.

While I know it's more, have you considered a metal building.  I 
think I remember
pictures of your place and you have at least on steel building.  Or 
do these need
foundations?

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From arvidj at visi.com  Sat Jun  6 07:53:49 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:53:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
References: <OF08C75ECE.ED318E1B-ON852575CD.0041B263-852575CD.0041B277@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CB3D94B8B82B4AB093E0BBB3C47C07A3@dellc84024>

I've had a "CoverAll" 10x20 in the back yard for about 10 years. And very 
much need another one. What I've learned ...

As other have mentioned moisture will be an issue without lots of 
ventilation. Even a thick layer of plastic did not work out the way I had 
hoped. You might be able to resolve the ventilation issue by leaving the 
bottom off the ground but I think a better way would be vents high up in the 
ends, or in my case, simply leaving the door at the end open most of the 
time.

Another minor issue is how hot they will get without venting. On a warm, 
sunny Minnesota day - yes, we did have one last year - it will get well over 
100 degrees in there.

Like any structure, the number of supporting ribs is important and is one of 
the differences when you look at the less expensive ones. In the size that I 
have the ribs come on four foot centers and three foot centers. The neighbor 
had a very inexpensive one on four foot centers, A very heavy, wet Minnesota 
snowfall was more than it could handle. Mine, on three foot centers and 
heavier fabric, is still standing after 10 years.

Easy of setup - at least in the smaller ones - seems to be in three areas.

One is "do I have some way to make drilling the anchors into the ground an 
easy task". This can be anything from "have someone else do it - i.e. ask 
the son-in-law to help" thru "make something that can be attached to the 
post hole auger on the tractor".

The second is "do I have something tall enough to allow me to attach the 
ribs together at the top". In my case "a step ladder in the back of the 
pickup" solved the problem. The size that you are looking at will be more 
challenging.

And the third is "can I find a calm day - or at least a calm morning or 
evening - and fiends" to pull the fabric over the frame. Otherwise you 
should insure that you get a brightly colored fabric so you can easily find 
it when it blows into the next county. There is no need to worry about it 
after you get the fabric installed. Assuming the anchors are robust and you 
have done a "is the fabric reasonably tight - check all of the ropes that 
hold it to the frame annual inspection" you will be fine. The only caveat 
here is if you choose to leave the end open for ventilation you should also 
leave the other end partially open so a high wind can "blow thru" the 
structure rather than "blow up" the structure.

The rest of the setup was a very boring "do I have all the pieces". And 
power tools would be a must for something in your size range simply for the 
number 3/8ths bolts and nuts that would be used to tie the whole thing 
together. Note of them are load bearing, they just keep the structural 
tubing together.

I prefer the curved style rather than the straight side style. I give up a 
little full height floor space because the walls curve in but I think the 
wind load on the sides of the curved model is much lower than the flat slap 
style and worth the trade off.

Arvid 

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun  6 07:53:55 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:53:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
Message-ID: <OF48B17466.ACACA86A-ON852575CD.004C592A-852575CD.004C592D@mail.megageek.com>

Yes, I have looked in metal buildings.  Does anyone have any
recommendations for a metal building that doesn't break the bank?  Again,
this is mostly just to keep the elements off of bigger equipment, so I'm
not looking to spend a fortune.


Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



-----"John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote: -----


To: eric at megageek.com
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
Date: 06/06/2009 08:58
cc: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage

At 07:57 AM 6/6/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote:

>That is just it, I need help to figuring out what size.  I'm thinking in
>the 40'X100' range.  But I wanted to see if anyone had a good way of
>figuring out what size works best.  Maybe there is a breaking point for
the
>tents.

Moose,

Looking at their pricing, a double car garage costs more than 2 single
ones,
they got a "double" 2 car that costs more than 2 2 car ones.  So, you might
want to think about purchasing a couple of different sizes.  Plus if
something
happens to 1 you've still got the others.  The old all the eggs in one
basket.

While I know it's more, have you considered a metal building.  I
think I remember
pictures of your place and you have at least on steel building.  Or
do these need
foundations?

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Jun  6 12:07:36 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:07:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] VFDs
Message-ID: <4A2AB068.8040402@verizon.net>

I just purchased a used Delta 12/14" table saw.  It has a 5 HP, three 
phase Baldor motor on it.  I have been doing a lot of research over at 
the old woodworking machines site on how to power it.  I'm looking for a 
more or less plug and play solution, and would rather not start swapping 
motors at this point.  I have more or less reached the following 
conclusions:

- Most people feel that static converters are a Very Bad Thing, although 
a few folks report that they work fine;

- If you are running multiple 3 phase loads, or loads in the 5 to 7.5 HP 
and up range, a rotary phase converter is the way to go.

- Buying a rotary phase converter is expensive, and apparently you can 
build your own for a lot less, but it requires a lot of messing around 
on Ebay, not to mention a lot of assembly.

- VFDs are very highly regarded, but the "inexpensive" ones, that is, 
under about $400, top out at around 3 HP or 11 amps or so.  Also, 
anything over 3 HP generally wants a 3 phase input.  I'll be running it 
with a single phase, 220 input.

- Apparently VFDs are capable of running at 150% for a minute before 
tripping out.  My motor pulls 12.8 amps at FLA and the VFD I'm 
considering is rated at 11 amps.  Some Old Woodworking Machinery folks 
report running 5 HP machinery on a 3 HP VFD with no problems.

- Since I don't plan on ripping 12/4 maple all day long with a power 
feeder, I will probably never approach FLA on my saw, so a 3HP, 11 AMP 
will probably work fine for me.  Also, the existing saw has an Allen 
Bradley push button starter mounted on the front of the saw.  With a VFD 
I can get rid of the starter and use low voltage switching via the VFDs 
inputs to start and stop the saw.  If I go with a rotary or static 
converter, or a big single phase motor ($$$), then I will be messing 
around with sizing the overload heaters, getting the correct coil 
voltages, and so on.  In my experience with 3 phase motor starters, this 
can get expensive in a hurry, expecially for obsolete AB stuff.

Anyone got any experience with these thing or would otherwise like to 
wade in?

thanks
Dave C

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun  6 13:36:56 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 12:36:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] VFDs
In-Reply-To: <4A2AB068.8040402@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20090606193656217.HFGK28090@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>

> Anyone got any experience with these thing or would otherwise 
> like to wade in?

I don't have any experience; but have done pretty much the same research as
you, with pretty much the same conclusion.  Note that the homebrew
converters, both static and "rotary" flavors also result in derating the
load motor, and may cause it to overheat if worked close to original
capacity.

Also, eBay 230347132386 might be worth a look.  For $300, it claims to
support single phase input and 13 amps.

Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Jun  6 14:29:39 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:29:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] VFDs
In-Reply-To: <4A2AB068.8040402@verizon.net>
References: <4A2AB068.8040402@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4A2AD1B3.4020700@verizon.net>

One other thing I forgot to mention.  My motor is 3 phase, 208 volt. 
Most of the VFDs are rated for 230 volts.  If I drive the motor with a 
slightly higher voltage, the amp draw should be slightly less, but is it 
going to mess up the motor (or vfd)?

Thanks again.



David C. wrote:
> e.  Also, the existing saw has an Allen Bradley push button starter
> mounted on the front of the saw.  With a VFD I can get rid of the
> starter and use low voltage switching via the VFDs inputs to start and
> stop the saw.  If I go with a rotary or static converter, or a big
> single phase motor ($$$), then I will be messing around with sizing the
> overload heaters, getting the correct coil voltages, and so on.  In my
> experience with 3 phase motor starters, this can get expensive in a
> hurry, expecially for obsolete AB stuff.
>
> Anyone got any experience with these thing or would otherwise like to
> wade in?
>
> thanks
> Dave C

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Sat Jun  6 14:46:35 2009
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:46:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] VFDs
References: <20090606193656217.HFGK28090@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0C7FF875D1B44C56A3DC5DF0181C1A08@stargate>

I've had some experience with VFDs to power pumps and they work great to 
convert single phase to three phase.  You do not need a three phase input. 
With pumps we always upsized by 1 to ensure enough power for start-up which 
is where you'll probably pull the highest load.
HTH

Gordie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: "'Shop Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] VFDs


>> Anyone got any experience with these thing or would otherwise
>> like to wade in?
>
> I don't have any experience; but have done pretty much the same research 
> as
> you, with pretty much the same conclusion.  Note that the homebrew
> converters, both static and "rotary" flavors also result in derating the
> load motor, and may cause it to overheat if worked close to original
> capacity.
>
> Also, eBay 230347132386 might be worth a look.  For $300, it claims to
> support single phase input and 13 amps.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mg_garage at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4134 (20090605) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sat Jun  6 20:50:48 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:50:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
References: <OF48B17466.ACACA86A-ON852575CD.004C592A-852575CD.004C592D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <5D7874D581104786B5BC569F703850BF@KARL>

My hangar is actually based on a tube structure similar to what you're 
contemplating.  I was constrained to the same style and manufacturer as the 
ultralight guys who started the row of hangars I'm in, or else I would have 
built a regular pole building with wood trusses and steel siding and roof. 
Alternatively, the Cover-It frames are far superior, each one being a truss. 
I almost got them to agree to my using one of those...

But, since I had to conform to what they used, here's what I built.  It's 
narrower than what you want at 38', but it's free span.  With center poles 
you could go lighter or wider no problem, but that sort of defeats aircraft 
use.  The length is essentially unlimited but in my case I was constrained 
to 25 feet because it had to match the others.  The hoops are 2" galvanized 
tubing (don't remember the gauge - guessing 18 ??  It's standard fence 
tubing).  I trussed every other hoop with a simple tube running across about 
4' below the top of the arch and braced with a vee of tubing up to the 
center of the hoop.  A couple of diagonal braces from each corner of the 
wall up to the upper structure add some wind bracing to the top.  8' walls, 
2x4 purlins, steel barn siding on the sides, and a tarp top.  It's all on a 
pad of grade 8 rock (a mix of crushed stone up to fist size, and 
screenings).  The hoops are set into tubing sockets in 4' of concrete (dug, 
set, and poured before erecting the hoops).  The floor started out as the 
heaviest (silver) grade of tarp HF sells -- 2 years later I poured a 
concrete floor and left the tarp as a heavy-duty vapor barrier.  Lots 
stronger than heavy Visqueen.  I also built stud wall sections faced with 
1/4" plywood to slip between the trusses.  The walls wind-brace the hoops 
and make a surface to hang cabinets, etc. without putting their weight on 
the structure itself.

It's held a couple of feet of snow, but I usually get out there to clear it 
when there's a significant snow that doesn't just blow and slide off.  The 
white tarp top does make for great lighting inside on even a dark day. 
Moisture is just not a factor, I presume because of the vapor barrier.  It's 
in a grassy area that tends to get some standing water, but my floor is high 
enough to stay dry, and I did run the vapor barrier up the sides of the 
structure, which formed the sides of the salb when we poured it.

Karl 

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  8 07:49:10 2009
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:49:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miata soft top rip
Message-ID: <BAY108-W49B067E8A182C6A01BBBBB9A470@phx.gbl>

This is a rip that isn't necessarily compromising the "weather-proof ness" or
would be in direct view from the outside or sun/rain, etc. but nonetheless I'd
like to get it fixed.  It's the part of the top that drops down when you unzip
the rear window.  It's a 96 Miata if that helps.  I'm thinking there might be
a way to stitch the rip and then seal it with patch and some flexible epoxy of
some kind.



Anyone attempt something like this before?



TIA,

PJ

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 11:50:55 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:50:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Miata soft top rip
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W49B067E8A182C6A01BBBBB9A470@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-W49B067E8A182C6A01BBBBB9A470@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906081050r67655f6ei838c89f2c967ae37@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 AM, PJ McGarvey<pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is a rip that isn't necessarily compromising the "weather-proof ness"
or
> would be in direct view from the outside or sun/rain, etc. but nonetheless
I'd
> like to get it fixed. B It's the part of the top that drops down when you
unzip
> the rear window. B It's a 96 Miata if that helps. B I'm thinking there might
be
> a way to stitch the rip and then seal it with patch and some flexible epoxy
of
> some kind.

I've never done it, but my local convertible top repair shop does it
all the time.  (Actually, these days, convertible top repair is a side
line, but it's what the sign still says.)  I don't know where you are,
but I bet you there's someone around who does this.  If you can't find
something in your yellow pages, ask the big used car dealerships.


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Jun  8 13:16:39 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:16:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] cable luber
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906081514280.359@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

In the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to recall that there's such a tool 
as a speedo cable luber... Our motorhome ('84 P30, turbo 400) has a 
squeeky speedo cable and we're about to drive it to DC and back in a 
couple weeks.  I'm going to go insane if I have to listen to that darn 
cable the whole way if it acts up again.

Is there such a thing as a way to lube the cable, or do I need to break 
down and buy a new cable plus figure out how it gets from the guage to the 
trans?

Thanks!

Mark

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Jun  8 13:29:36 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 14:29:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] cable luber
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906081514280.359@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906081514280.359@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4A2D66A0.30801@hornesystemstx.com>

Mark,

I seem to remember something that looked like a hypodermic syringe for 
that, but a quick web search didn't come up with anything.

There have been discussions as to whether dry graphite or grease should 
be used, and there seems to be no real answer. Personally, I've used 
grease, but on as long a cable as a motor home uses, I would probably 
try graphite, possibly in oil to help it flow.

Having said that, I've always been able to remove the cable from the 
gauge end of the sheath, clean and lube it and put it back in.

Good luck and have a great trip.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Mark Andy, On 6/8/2009 2:16 PM:
> Howdy,
>
> In the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to recall that there's such a 
> tool as a speedo cable luber... Our motorhome ('84 P30, turbo 400) has 
> a squeeky speedo cable and we're about to drive it to DC and back in a 
> couple weeks.  I'm going to go insane if I have to listen to that darn 
> cable the whole way if it acts up again.
>
> Is there such a thing as a way to lube the cable, or do I need to 
> break down and buy a new cable plus figure out how it gets from the 
> guage to the trans?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Jun  8 13:35:22 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:35:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] cable luber
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906081514280.359@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906081514280.359@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797030ADB0F@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
>
> In the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to recall that there's
> such a tool as a speedo cable luber...

Usually, you can disconnect the speedometer cable, pull out the inside
part, apply lube and put it all back together.

But as for a cable luber, I have one.  It's designed for lubing
motorcycle cables.  You disconnect one end of the cable, clamp the tool
over it (with the inner cable sticking out the end) and the rubber
lining of the tool seals up against the two parts of the cable.  Then
you put the tube from the spray can of cable lube into the hole on the
tool and spray away.  It forces the lube along the cable to the other
end.  Works well on brake cables etc. and I don't see why it wouldn't
work on a speedometer cable.

A good motorcycle shop should have one.

One word of warning however, if you get too much lube in the cable, it
can work its way into the speedometer itself.  Then when the grease/oil
gets into the speedometer, it doesn't work very well after that.

Tim Mullen

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Mon Jun  8 21:04:18 2009
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:04:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] cable luber
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906081514280.359@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6B1A8600C0D04B4DA1432DEC0E5E2B3F@8sv5f01>

> Is there such a thing as a way to lube the cable, or do I 
> need to break 
> down and buy a new cable plus figure out how it gets from the 
> gauge to the 
> trans?

Some like this: http://www.mamotorworks.com/corvette?frame=1.1170 ?

http://tinyurl.com/m82mt9

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jun  9 07:02:06 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:02:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] cable luber
In-Reply-To: <6B1A8600C0D04B4DA1432DEC0E5E2B3F@8sv5f01>
References: <6B1A8600C0D04B4DA1432DEC0E5E2B3F@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906090900150.17614@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 8 Jun 2009, Bob Kegel wrote:

>> Is there such a thing as a way to lube the cable, or do I
>> need to break
>> down and buy a new cable plus figure out how it gets from the
>> gauge to the
>> trans?
>
> Some like this: http://www.mamotorworks.com/corvette?frame=1.1170 ?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/m82mt9

That looks perfect, thanks Bob!

After doing some reading, I think I'm just going to pull the instrument 
panel (which looks to be easy in the motorhome) and see if I can just pull 
out the inner cable.  If I'm looking at this stuff correctly, I shouldn't 
even need to undo it at the trans end.

If that doesn't work for some reason, I'll look into getting this tool.

Thanks!

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun  9 12:37:09 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:37:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] cable luber
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906090900150.17614@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <6B1A8600C0D04B4DA1432DEC0E5E2B3F@8sv5f01>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0906090900150.17614@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6F0299BF5A764EFDBCCFA0AFECEAAA7E@jdnet.deere.com>

> After doing some reading, I think I'm just going to pull the instrument
> panel (which looks to be easy in the motorhome) and see if I can just pull
> out the inner cable.  

No idea what your motorhome looks like, but on mine it was actually easier
to lift out the driver's seat, then lay on the floor and reach behind the
dash.  Have to work by feel, but I was able to pull back the clip and get
the cable off with one hand.

I smeared mine with a thin coat of axle grease and slid it back in.  No more
squeak and the speedo needle was a lot steadier.

-- Randall 

From ronald.olds at mchsi.com  Wed Jun 10 11:51:24 2009
From: ronald.olds at mchsi.com (ronald.olds at mchsi.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:51:24 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703008FAD@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <4A228510.1030105@gmail.com> <C647DA81.2C0E%kennedybc@comcast.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703008FAD@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <061020091751.22.4A2FF29C00062C1500000016223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0B0401D20B040E02019D@mchsi.com>

Thanks everyone for your advise.  I do have a question on the soaker hose.  Doesn't it require pressure to force the water though the walls?  I would be afraid that the water would back up in the line.

Ron Olds
-------------- Original message from "Mullen, Tim (IS)" <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com>: -------------- 


> Brian Kennedy wrote: 
> > 
> > A big enough dry well should do the job. How about attaching it 
> > to a soaker hose? Is there something nearby that needs watering? 
> 
> I cleverly did this many years ago. I attached some clear plastic 
> tubing to the outlet on the outside of the house (used a couple of 
> adapters to size the plastic pipe down to the tubing size). 
> 
> Then I ran the other end of the tube to a flowerbed along the fence so 
> that we wouldn't have to water there anymore. Big mistake. The AC 
> makes a LOT of water, and it ended up drowning the plants. 
> 
> However, this would work better if you did in fact attach it to a soaker 
> hose to spread out the runoff. 
> 
> But in any case, attaching a hose/tube to the outlet can easily be done 
> to re-route the water to another place. 
> 
> Tim Mullen 
> 
> Chantilly, VA 

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Jun 11 03:30:37 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:30:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
References: <4A228510.1030105@gmail.com> <C647DA81.2C0E%kennedybc@comcast.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703008FAD@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<061020091751.22.4A2FF29C00062C1500000016223045151403010CD2079C080C03BF9C0B0401D20B040E02019D@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <001601c9ea77$47a233b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Depends on the type of soaker hose.  The cheap hard foam ones do require a 
good bit of pressure to get the water through.  The fabric ones require 
none.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ronald.olds at mchsi.com>
To: "Mullen, Tim (IS)" <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com>; "Team shop-talk" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] (no subject)


> Thanks everyone for your advise.  I do have a question on the soaker hose. 
> Doesn't it require pressure to force the water though the walls?  I would 
> be afraid that the water would back up in the line.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Jun 12 20:52:00 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:52:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906122247120.4063@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Ok, is there any reason that a Cheetah bead seating tool should cost $340?

I.e.:

http://www.wescotools.com/p-4865-tsi-tire-service-ch-5-cheetah-6-gallon-bead-seater.aspx

It seems like just a basic portable air tank with a big valve.  I'm sure 
the big valve and piping isn't free, but I can't imagine it really costs 
$300 either.

I have an extra air tank... Any reason not to weld in a bung and make my 
own?  Are 125 psi pressure tanks normally just welded and that's it, or do 
they need heat treatment or whatever?

Mark

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Jun 12 21:05:59 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:05:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906122247120.4063@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906122247120.4063@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>

Seating a bead with starter fluid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdOWEFALdA

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy"

> Ok, is there any reason that a Cheetah bead seating tool should cost $340?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 13 06:03:08 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:03:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>

> Seating a bead with starter fluid
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdOWEFALdA

Hey, cool idea!  I could have used that a few days ago.

> > Ok, is there any reason that a Cheetah bead seating tool 
> should cost $340?

Low volume item?  Don't see any reason you couldn't make one yourself.  I
don't think the tanks are hardened, but of course you should get it
hydrotested before putting air in it.

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sat Jun 13 09:09:04 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:09:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906122247120.4063@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906131108400.19964@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 12 Jun 2009, Eric J Russell wrote:
> Seating a bead with starter fluid
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdOWEFALdA

Yeah, I did that three times yesterday.

My wife wasn't impressed.

Mark

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sat Jun 13 09:10:37 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:10:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
References: <20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906131109530.19964@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009, Randall wrote:
>>> Ok, is there any reason that a Cheetah bead seating tool
>> should cost $340?
>
> Low volume item?  Don't see any reason you couldn't make one yourself. 
> I don't think the tanks are hardened, but of course you should get it 
> hydrotested before putting air in it.

Where does one go to get something hydrotested?  Presumambly for that it 
gets filled with high pressure water?

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 09:19:02 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:19:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
References: <1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>
	<20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906130819o6437c8b9tc0a8fd9a1f2b3fd6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> Seating a bead with starter fluid
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdOWEFALdA
>
> Hey, cool idea! B I could have used that a few days ago.
>

The other useful trick, which doesn't involve explosions, is to put a
large ratchet strap around the
tread of the tire, and tighten it.  sometimes two are required.
Squeezing the tread moves the beads out, and makes it much easier to
get air in.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shiples at comcast.net  Sat Jun 13 14:35:16 2009
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:35:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906131109530.19964@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
	<20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090613132539.034af308@mail.comcast.net>

>Where does one go to get something hydrotested?  Presumambly for that it 
>gets filled with high pressure water?
>
>Mark

When I was taking a welding class at the local CC, the students that
were going to weld for a living used to have to weld a six sided
box, with one side gas welded, one side mig welded, inner shield,
outer shield, or whatever was on the list of processes.

The finished product had a hole drilled in it for a schrader valve
(tire) and the instructor used some sort of pump (grease gun or
porta-power) with a gauge to show how much pressure the
box would take before failure.

The box would fail at the worst welded joint and everyone
got to appreciate the drama and supply commentary.
Great fun and educational besides

When I last put in water lines, I was required to do something
similar and I used a bicycle pump.

Steve Shipley

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 13 16:27:55 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:27:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906130819o6437c8b9tc0a8fd9a1f2b3fd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090613222754901.LRFM22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>

> The other useful trick, which doesn't involve explosions, is 
> to put a large ratchet strap around the tread of the tire, 
> and tighten it.  sometimes two are required.

That's the method I normally use (when anything is required, usually just
holding the tire is enough).  But for the two tires I mounted recently, it
didn't work.  Basically the first bead I put on got cocked while putting the
second bead onto the wheel.  I had to put it back on the bead breaker and
push one side down so I could bring the entire sidewall up evenly.

Decided that I would pay someone else to do the others <G>

Another trick that helps is to leave out the valve core, and just jam the
quick connect coupler directly onto the tire stem when seating the beads.
But you already knew that.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 17:35:06 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:35:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <20090613222754901.LRFM22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
References: <2400a5d40906130819o6437c8b9tc0a8fd9a1f2b3fd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090613222754901.LRFM22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906131635n78fc09cdy7d9d28c41e4d40e5@mail.gmail.com>

> Decided that I would pay someone else to do the others <G>
>

this is *by far* my favorite method.  My local tire shop only charges
about five bucks a wheel to swap tires.  (
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 18:47:33 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:47:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] cordless drills?
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906131747y19003f67s5ce9f990d763f0bb@mail.gmail.com>

What's the current opinion on cordless drills?  I need to rebuild a
deck.  My ancient makita is on its last legs, even if the battery
packs weren't dying.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun 13 18:37:31 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:37:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table Saws
Message-ID: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I'm ready to buy a good table saw.  I don't mind spending the mulla, 
but I want to make sure it is worth the money.

Anyone have any sources for these (internet, big box, etc?)

Any recommendations?

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sat Jun 13 19:45:39 2009
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:45:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table Saws
In-Reply-To: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <20090614014539.GA81337@sackheads.org>

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 08:37:31PM -0400, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, I'm ready to buy a good table saw.  I don't mind spending the mulla, 
> but I want to make sure it is worth the money.
> 
> Anyone have any sources for these (internet, big box, etc?)
> 
> Any recommendations?

What is your budget?  What sorts of materials will you primarily be cutting?
Thick hardwoods or sheet goods?  Do you require portability?  Is 220V 
acceptable?

Jimmie

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Sat Jun 13 20:15:41 2009
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:15:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table Saws
In-Reply-To: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A345D4D.7030705@comcast.net>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, I'm ready to buy a good table saw.  I don't mind spending the mulla, 
> but I want to make sure it is worth the money.
>
> Anyone have any sources for these (internet, big box, etc?)
>
> Any recommendations?
>   
The best table saws are Delta and Powermatic.  Jet also makes good 
saws.   I've had a Grizzly contractors saw for many years.  Grizzly has 
their table saws cast in China and machined in the US in their factor 
before shipping (at least were when I bought mine many years ago).  The 
exact model of mine is probably not available but the newer saws are 
basically the same with many improvements.  Grizzly makes decent saws 
that are not as finished as the others but function just as well and 
cost less.

The best type of table saw is a cabinet saw, massive and powerful.  
However, contractor saws are very good mid range saws, just less 
powerful.  Stay away from portable/job site types.

What you should be concerned about this the flatness of the top so 
highly recommend getting one with cast iron wings.  The cast iron wings 
will be truer than stamped steel wings and add mass to the machine to 
cut down on vibration.  Without a flat top you will never get a straight 
cut and risk injury.  If the top is warped the wood can feed into rear 
of the blade and cause kick back.  Excessive vibration can also cause 
the wood to be grab by the rear of the blade and kick back.

Also, you want one with a good fence.  The Bessemeyer type T square 
fences are the best; basically big rail with a rectangular cross section 
mounted across the front and a T square fence made from a similar bar 
and angle iron that clamps to the front rail.  Stay away fences that 
clamp to the front AND rear.  They difficult to lock down parallel to 
the blade and can be damaged if a clamped down out of parallel.  And 
again, if not locked parallel, high velocity flying wood hurled at you.

Peter Thomas


> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Sat Jun 13 20:53:18 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:53:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table Saws
In-Reply-To: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <f99bbf590906131953w4768776crf74fc248944aaf00@mail.gmail.com>

SawStop worth every penny and extremely well built.


On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 8:37 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> OK, I'm ready to buy a good table saw.  I don't mind spending the mulla,
> but I want to make sure it is worth the money.
>
> Anyone have any sources for these (internet, big box, etc?)
>
> Any recommendations?
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Jun 13 22:11:01 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:11:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table Saws
In-Reply-To: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A347855.7020405@verizon.net>

If you're not in a hurry and like to get dirty, you can find an old 40s 
to 70s Delta Unisaw for $300 to $500 and rebuild it to better than 
anything you can get today.  Go to the Wiki on the Old Woodworking 
Machines web site (OWWM) and everything you ever wanted to know about 
rebuilding a Unisaw is there.  There is one on the Seattle Craigslist 
right now for $300.  It has a 3 HP 3 phase motor, but it's missing the 
dust door and motor cover (neither of which are actually required to 
operate).  These are readily available as repos or somewhat less 
available on the secondary market if you want all original. It would be 
in my shop right now, but I'm already rebuilding it's big brother, a 
Delta 12"-14" table saw, which is a real monster...unless you're 
comparing it to one of the industrial table saws from the 30s and 40s.

On the other hand, I also have a Grizzly G1023 10" cabinet saw (Unisaw 
clone) that works perfectly well.  Mostly it depends on your budget, 
what you plan to do with it, whether or not you need portability, and if 
you are concerned with dust collection (contractor type saws are very 
difficult to connect to a dust collector, cabinet saws are usually 
designed with dust collection in mind).

Stay away from the hundreds and hundreds of Sears Craftsman table saws 
that infest Craigslist.  With VERY rare exceptions most of these are junk.

Dave C

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> OK, I'm ready to buy a good table saw.  I don't mind spending the mulla,
> but I want to make sure it is worth the money.
>
> Anyone have any sources for these (internet, big box, etc?)
>
> Any recommendations?
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Jun 14 00:35:29 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 02:35:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906130819o6437c8b9tc0a8fd9a1f2b3fd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>
	<20090613120308226.QAYJ16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40906130819o6437c8b9tc0a8fd9a1f2b3fd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906140234110.2208@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009, David Scheidt wrote:
> The other useful trick, which doesn't involve explosions, is to put a
> large ratchet strap around the
> tread of the tire, and tighten it.  sometimes two are required.
> Squeezing the tread moves the beads out, and makes it much easier to
> get air in.

Tried that before the ether.  Its worked on lighter weight tires for me in 
the past, but these 10 ply trailer tires wouldn't compress the center of 
the tire... The tread area itself just buckled.

I didn't try two straps though.  Thought of it, but then wanted to try the 
ether trick.  :-)

Mark

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Jun 14 00:37:33 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 02:37:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906131635n78fc09cdy7d9d28c41e4d40e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2400a5d40906130819o6437c8b9tc0a8fd9a1f2b3fd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090613222754901.LRFM22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40906131635n78fc09cdy7d9d28c41e4d40e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906140236460.2208@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009, David Scheidt wrote:
>> Decided that I would pay someone else to do the others <G>
>
> this is *by far* my favorite method.  My local tire shop only charges
> about five bucks a wheel to swap tires.  (

Sure.  But:

#1, they're not usually open at 1am.

#2, then you don't get to explode stuff with ether or buy cool tools.

:-)

Mark

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun 14 05:38:44 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:38:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table Saws
In-Reply-To: <4A345D4D.7030705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <OFC8B38D8F.4FB4A01C-ON852575D5.003FDD0B-852575D5.00416352@mail.megageek.com>

I guess I should raise my budget for this cabinet saw.  I would saw $1500 
to $2000.

Also, does anyone have any recommendations on where to buy them?

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Jun 14 19:28:34 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:28:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <COL115-W26674B63B8040BFA37B500CC3E0@phx.gbl>

I recently met a guy who has a chrome plating business.  He doesn't do the
plating himself, but works with a commercial plater in another state.  He
sends them hobbyist stuff that they use to fill the gaps between their big
jobs.

I don't know much about chrome plating, but here is what he told me: He refers
to their chrome work as "show chrome", but says it is generally not triple
plated.   He says that the prep guy at his place prefers to spend the time to
polish the steel to a smooth surface, thus the copper isn't needed unless the
metal is badly pitted.  They then leave the piece in the nickle for about 45
minutes, vs the usual 5-10.

His prices were pretty reasonable, so I thought I'd give him a try with
something small, a pair of bumper overriders, which I just got back.  They
look terrific, but I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything when the
chrome is fresh.  It will be a while before I actually use the overriders,
possibly until I have a re-chromed bumper to put them on.  Is there any good
way to tell the quality of a re-chroming job?

_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thats right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Jun 14 19:44:50 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:44:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] copying recorded shows from a sat dvr to a dvd
Message-ID: <0CAECC15F52941B098E2788D7232A3FF@niolon>

I've got dish network and a built in dvr... I'm about to upgrade to HD which 
requires a receiver upgrade.  dish network offers no option to copy saved 
shows...I've got a dvd recorder but can't figure out the cabling so i can 
copy selected shows and see them at the same time to make sure it's what I 
really want...

any suggestions ???

thanks
john



"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much 
government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering) 

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 14 20:43:11 2009
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:43:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] copying recorded shows from a sat dvr to a dvd
In-Reply-To: <0CAECC15F52941B098E2788D7232A3FF@niolon>
References: <0CAECC15F52941B098E2788D7232A3FF@niolon>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W1788B3321937B79DDCE17E9A3E0@phx.gbl>

There were some ways to hack the Tivo DVRs and "extract" video over the
available network port, but they involved opening up the DVR which voids the
warranty and doing quite a bit of work that could potentially "brick" your
whole DVR.   That said I'm not sure what's out there for Dish Network
equipment.

About the only thing I can suggest is to buy some sort of video capture device
using the available video/audio ouputs, and capture the recording to a
computer, and then write to DVD.   You may have to do some video/audio format
conversion to be compatible with the DVD format.

PJ

> From: jniolon at bham.rr.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:44:50 -0500
> Subject: [Shop-talk] copying recorded shows from a sat dvr to a dvd
>
> I've got dish network and a built in dvr... I'm about to upgrade to HD which
> requires a receiver upgrade.  dish network offers no option to copy saved
> shows...I've got a dvd recorder but can't figure out the cabling so i can
> copy selected shows and see them at the same time to make sure it's what I
> really want...
>
> any suggestions ???
>
> thanks
> john
>
>
>
> "One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much
> government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Sun Jun 14 21:48:34 2009
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:48:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sharpening a woodworking chisel?
Message-ID: <C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>

I seem to have lost the knack.

Actually, I haven't tried to sharpen a chisel in maybe 8 years.  The  
one I did back then is still pretty good, but I can't sharpen the  
rest of the set very well.  I have the same stone I used back then,  
and I use a little bit of oil on the stone... any tips or suggestions?

Matt

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 14 21:59:56 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:59:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W26674B63B8040BFA37B500CC3E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090615035956358.KWPW22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>

> thus the copper isn't needed unless
> the metal is badly pitted.

What I was told, long ago, was that it is very difficult to get nickel to
bond properly to steel.  If it's not done just right (some claim it's
impossible), then the resulting chrome will eventually peel.  Maybe not this
year, maybe not next, but it will peel.

>   They then leave the piece in the nickle for about
> 45 minutes, vs the usual 5-10.

Sounds kind of haphazard.  For a quality job, there should actually be two
separate layers of nickel, done under slightly different conditions.  I
forget the details offhand, but it has something to do with preventing
dissimilar metal corrosion.  Without the two layers, the part is more apt to
rust.  Supposedly the nickel is what provides the corrosion resistance and
much of the 'shine', the chrome just improves the appearance of the nickel
and keeps it from tarnishing.

> Is there any good
> way to tell the quality of a re-chroming job?

Not that I know of.

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jun 14 22:55:47 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:55:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <489620.80927.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have heard that most of the "chrome" is really nickel, and the actual
chromium is a very thin layer on top.

Doug

--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Randall
<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> Sounds kind of haphazard.  For a quality job,
there
> should actually be two
> separate layers of nickel, done under
slightly different
> conditions.  I
> forget the details offhand, but it has
something to do with
> preventing
> dissimilar metal corrosion.  Without the
two layers,
> the part is more apt to
> rust.  Supposedly the nickel is what
provides the
> corrosion resistance and
> much of the 'shine', the chrome just
improves the
> appearance of the nickel
> and keeps it from tarnishing.
> 
> >
Is there any good
> > way to tell the quality of a re-chroming job?
> 
> Not
that I know of.
> 
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as
doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
>
http://www.team.net/archive

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Jun 15 13:35:38 2009
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:35:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sharpening a woodworking chisel?
In-Reply-To: <C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>
References: <C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>

Matt Trebelhorn wrote:
> I seem to have lost the knack.
>
> Actually, I haven't tried to sharpen a chisel in maybe 8 years.  The  
> one I did back then is still pretty good, but I can't sharpen the  
> rest of the set very well.  I have the same stone I used back then,  
> and I use a little bit of oil on the stone... any tips or suggestions?
>   
The above suggests most of the chisels are as they came from the 
manufacturer.  Out of the box, most chisels won't hold a decent edge, so 
you need to flatten/polish the backs.  Google "Scary Sharp".  One 
addition, make a leather strop from the tongue of an old shoe glued to a 
flat piece of wood and charge it with fine polishing compound.  Wipe the 
back and bevel on the strop after sharpening and often while using the 
chisels.

Pete Thomas
> Matt
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jun 15 13:36:27 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:36:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <20090615035956358.KWPW22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
References: <COL115-W26674B63B8040BFA37B500CC3E0@phx.gbl>
	<20090615035956358.KWPW22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906151236x722f252bg44ec3717c6db2aae@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> thus the copper isn't needed unless
>> the metal is badly pitted.
>
> What I was told, long ago, was that it is very difficult to get nickel to
> bond properly to steel. B If it's not done just right (some claim it's
> impossible), then the resulting chrome will eventually peel. B Maybe not
this
> year, maybe not next, but it will peel.
>
>> B  They then leave the piece in the nickle for about
>> 45 minutes, vs the usual 5-10.
>
> Sounds kind of haphazard. B For a quality job, there should actually be two
> separate layers of nickel, done under slightly different conditions. B I
> forget the details offhand, but it has something to do with preventing
> dissimilar metal corrosion. B Without the two layers, the part is more apt
to
> rust. B Supposedly the nickel is what provides the corrosion resistance and
> much of the 'shine', the chrome just improves the appearance of the nickel
> and keeps it from tarnishing.

Well, it depends on what you're plating, and why.  For something like
a bumper, where you're after the shine, the best process is
copper-coat the bare part, polish the copper to mirror smoothness,
then two layers of nickel, followed by a very thin layer of chrome.
The copper fills the surface of the part, and more readily takes a
polish than steel.  The two layers of nickel are called bright and
semi-bright.  I think, but can't remember, that the semi-bright goes
first.  The bright nickel is a sacrificial coating (galvonically), and
spreads the corrosion forces laterally, instead of through the
coatings.

for a part that's covered in what's called "hard chrome", where the
chrome is a wear preventing surface, there's a slightly different
procedure.  (Gun barrels and chambers, hydraulic cylinder bores and
pistons, and the swivel balls of elderly Land-Rovers (LBC content!)
are all hard chromed.)  The surface is prepared; typically that
involves grinding it smooth, but sometimes some texture is put into
it, if it's supposed to have it (to keep a film of oil, say).  Then
the two (or sometimes three) layers of nickel are  put on, followed by
a very much thicker layer of chrome.  These parts aren't usually super
shiney, though they can be, if that's useful property.

A part with only one layer of nickel might well look wonderful, but it
won't stay that way.


>> Is there any good
>> way to tell the quality of a re-chroming job?
>
> Not that I know of.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net B http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jun 15 19:40:04 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:40:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sharpening a woodworking chisel?
In-Reply-To: <4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>
References: <C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>
	<4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906151840n268fc52eq614ff329cdad4b55@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Peter J. Thomas<pj_thomas at comcast.net>
wrote:
> Matt Trebelhorn wrote:
>>
>> I seem to have lost the knack.
>>
>> Actually, I haven't tried to sharpen a chisel in maybe 8 years. B The
B one
>> I did back then is still pretty good, but I can't sharpen the B rest of
the
>> set very well. B I have the same stone I used back then, B and I use a
little
>> bit of oil on the stone... any tips or suggestions?
>>
>
> The above suggests most of the chisels are as they came from the
> manufacturer. B Out of the box, most chisels won't hold a decent edge, so
you
> need to flatten/polish the backs. B Google "Scary Sharp". B One addition,
make
> a leather strop from the tongue of an old shoe glued to a flat piece of
wood
> and charge it with fine polishing compound. B Wipe the back and bevel on
the
> strop after sharpening and often while using the chisels.

I'm not a big fan of scary sharp.  It's not that it doesn't do a good
job, it's just that it's a pain, and sandpaper is very expensive.
Plus he says he's got stones, so it's not as if he's starting from
scratch.

But you're almost certainly right that the chisels have a substantial
amount of belly on the backs.  Cover the back with sharpie marking,
and run it across a stone, and you'll see where the high and low spots
are.  Get it nice and smooth, and then sharpening it is easy.  For
most of mine, I use the primary bevel whatever the maker supplies, and
then put a secondary at about 20 degrees more obtuse than that.
That's the edge I touch up during use, usually.


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 15 21:03:06 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:03:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] cordless drills?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906131747y19003f67s5ce9f990d763f0bb@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <2400a5d40906131747y19003f67s5ce9f990d763f0bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090615225632.03e6c230@yahoo.com>

Gee, no answers......   :-(

My advice is to goto your big box store of choice and check out the 
"systems".  It's not a good deal to buy just a cordless driver, you 
get more bang for the buck when you buy the kit.  Also, you'll be 
using the cordless impact driver to drive the deck screws & 
lags.  using the small driver makes the 18V battery (almost! :-) 
bearable for the whole day of driving.  WHy 18V?  Seems that's the 
intro "pro" battery size....

I still have my 14.4V DeWalt kit and love the heck out of it.  I 
don't really miss 18V power with it, if I need that extra grunt, I 
grab the corded tool (trim saw's a little weak after a while).  Rigid 
offers (offered) free batteries for the life of the tool or something 
like that; if you go through batteries, that might be 
attractive.  Milwaukee, DeWalt, Makita are still the big 3.  Metabo 
is really nice but $$$.  if I were to upgrade, I think I'd get 
whichever system came with the best cordless impact (my most used 
tool), the nicest charger and a nice gatemouth bag.  They're all 
pretty fungible to me (buy maybe not to you).

You will also probably want a small mini cordless non-impact driver - 
Bosch makes a real nice one of those.  Which reminds me, Tool of the 
Trade did a review not too long ago - should be on their website....



At 6/13/2009 at 20:47, Shakespearean monkeys danced on David 
Scheidt's keyboard and said:
>What's the current opinion on cordless drills?  I need to rebuild a
>deck.  My ancient makita is on its last legs, even if the battery
>packs weren't dying.


Cheers!

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 15 21:08:16 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:08:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table Saws
In-Reply-To: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFC2F71378.968090CA-ON852575D5.00035495-852575D5.0004D9C3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090615230448.04060ea0@yahoo.com>

I have the 12" Grizzly cabinet saw and love it to death.  A few hours 
to set and true it up when new and away I went.  A coat of wax every 
couple months is all the maintenance it needs.  I even got lucky and 
didn't need really need the linked belt upgrade (but did it 
anyways).  Bought it maybe 5-6 years ago.

If I were buying one now, I would consider the SawStop, fingers are 
expensive.  I've touched a blade a few times in the last 25 or so 
years of playing with sharp spinning things and while never bitten, 
those videos are damn impressive.....



At 6/13/2009 at 20:37, Shakespearean monkeys danced on 
eric at megageek.com's keyboard and said:
>OK, I'm ready to buy a good table saw.  I don't mind spending the mulla,
>but I want to make sure it is worth the money.
>
>Anyone have any sources for these (internet, big box, etc?)
>
>Any recommendations?
>
>Moose


Cheers!

From racertod at racertodd.com  Mon Jun 15 21:36:21 2009
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:36:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sharpening a woodworking chisel?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906151840n268fc52eq614ff329cdad4b55@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>
	<C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>
	<4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090615201726.00bb7220@mail.blarg.net>

         I tried the scary sharp method, found it time-consuming.  Not a 
bad method if you're just touching up a reasonably well-kept chisel or 
plane iron.  In my case I had some vintage early-1900's Stanley plane irons 
to sharpen and they were very dull.  Scary sharp would take way too much time.
         I bought a Work Sharp WS3000 (www.worksharptools.com) and love 
it.  It's basically a medium speed grinder rotated 90degrees.  6" 
adhesive-backed sandpaper is attached to tempered glass disks.  Tool rest 
is adjustable to different angles.
         It ground down my dull plane irons in no time.  Put on a wicked 
sharp edge, too.  The tool rest means I'm always sharpening at the correct 
angle.  The Edge-Vision disk and media makes sharpening odd-shaped tools 
like lathe gouges a breeze.
         Sandpaper is somewhat pricey from Work Sharp, you can substitute 
other adhesive-backed media from 3M or Norton.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 269,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       207,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 15 22:36:53 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:36:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] cordless drills?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20090615225632.03e6c230@yahoo.com>
References: <2400a5d40906131747y19003f67s5ce9f990d763f0bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090615225632.03e6c230@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090616003527.03d40df8@yahoo.com>

And what did I just come across....

http://toolmonger.com/2009/06/15/dealmonger-free-milwaukee-tool-w-kit-purchase/

Would be a deal clincher for me....


At 6/15/2009 at 23:03, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Richard 
Beels's keyboard and said:
>Gee, no answers......   :-(
>
>My advice is to goto your big box store of choice and check out the 
>"systems".  It's not a good deal to buy just a cordless driver, you 
>get more bang for the buck when you buy the kit.  Also, you'll be 
>using the cordless impact driver to drive the deck screws & 
>lags.  using the small driver makes the 18V battery (almost! :-) 
>bearable for the whole day of driving.  WHy 18V?  Seems that's the 
>intro "pro" battery size....
>
>I still have my 14.4V DeWalt kit and love the heck out of it.  I 
>don't really miss 18V power with it, if I need that extra grunt, I 
>grab the corded tool (trim saw's a little weak after a 
>while).  Rigid offers (offered) free batteries for the life of the 
>tool or something like that; if you go through batteries, that might 
>be attractive.  Milwaukee, DeWalt, Makita are still the big 
>3.  Metabo is really nice but $$$.  if I were to upgrade, I think 
>I'd get whichever system came with the best cordless impact (my most 
>used tool), the nicest charger and a nice gatemouth bag.  They're 
>all pretty fungible to me (buy maybe not to you).
>
>You will also probably want a small mini cordless non-impact driver 
>- Bosch makes a real nice one of those.  Which reminds me, Tool of 
>the Trade did a review not too long ago - should be on their website....
>
>
>
>At 6/13/2009 at 20:47, Shakespearean monkeys danced on David 
>Scheidt's keyboard and said:
>>What's the current opinion on cordless drills?  I need to rebuild a
>>deck.  My ancient makita is on its last legs, even if the battery
>>packs weren't dying.


Cheers!

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Mon Jun 15 22:51:40 2009
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:51:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sharpening a woodworking chisel?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906151840n268fc52eq614ff329cdad4b55@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>	
	<4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40906151840n268fc52eq614ff329cdad4b55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A3724DC.4070701@comcast.net>

David Scheidt wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Peter J. Thomas<pj_thomas at comcast.net> wrote:
>   
>> Matt Trebelhorn wrote:
>>     
>>> I seem to have lost the knack.
>>>
>>> Actually, I haven't tried to sharpen a chisel in maybe 8 years.  The  one
>>> I did back then is still pretty good, but I can't sharpen the  rest of the
>>> set very well.  I have the same stone I used back then,  and I use a little
>>> bit of oil on the stone... any tips or suggestions?
>>>
>>>       
>> The above suggests most of the chisels are as they came from the
>> manufacturer.  Out of the box, most chisels won't hold a decent edge, so you
>> need to flatten/polish the backs.  Google "Scary Sharp".  One addition, make
>> a leather strop from the tongue of an old shoe glued to a flat piece of wood
>> and charge it with fine polishing compound.  Wipe the back and bevel on the
>> strop after sharpening and often while using the chisels.
>>     
>
> I'm not a big fan of scary sharp.  It's not that it doesn't do a good
> job, it's just that it's a pain, and sandpaper is very expensive.
> Plus he says he's got stones, so it's not as if he's starting from
> scratch.
>   
I also prefer oil stones for regular sharpening, but most chisels 
initially need significant material removed to flatten them, so "scary 
sharp" is a good way to get them lapped flat and polished initially.  It 
can also be used to clean up an oil stone, though I prefer my diamond stone.

Matt writes that he has a single stone that is eight years old, though 
it may be a two sided combination stone.  So I suspect, one: it's not 
coarse enough to remove significant material and two: it is clogged and 
gummed up from oil and steel sitting and oxidizing over the years.  
Assume it is a two sided, it takes a lot of work with the fine side to 
remove the scratches from the coarse side.  Assume its single grit 
stone, its a even more work to flatten a chisel back with a fine stone 
alone. 

You are correct, scary sharp can get expensive over time, but the one 
time cost for a half a dozen sheets is acceptable for the initial truing 
of the chisel set.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jun 16 07:51:57 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:51:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] cordless drills?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20090615225632.03e6c230@yahoo.com>
References: <2400a5d40906131747y19003f67s5ce9f990d763f0bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090615225632.03e6c230@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906160944490.17938@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009, Richard Beels wrote:
> My advice is to goto your big box store of choice and check out the 
> "systems".  It's not a good deal to buy just a cordless driver, you get 
> more bang for the buck when you buy the kit.

I'll second this...  I've been quite impressed with my Milwaukee 18v 
(older ni-cad, not the Li-on setups) sawzall and circular saw.  They'd 
have been hard to justify on their own, but I grab them first when I need 
to cut something over the corded options.

I think I'd go with the Li-on battery tech now, regardless of 
manufacturer.  Milwaukee finally updated their battery form factor to make 
in uncompatible with the older slide on style like I have, but that 
doesn't mean their new tools aren't still a good choice.  I've put my 
cordless impact gun and drill through quite a bit of hell since I got them 
in 2002 or whatever and they're still going strong.  In that time I've had 
to feed the system a number of batteries however, which can add up.  If 
someone is offering a lifetime battery replacement and they're a quality 
tool, I'd spend more money to get that.

Don't overlook how handy it is to have a light as well... One of my 
batteries lives on the light most of the time.

If you don't care about the Li-on batteries, you may well find a great 
deal on the older 18v milwaukee kits on ebay.  The last time I was going 
to replace a couple batteries, the charge for two batteries and a charger 
(I was going to move to Li-on) was $200.  I found a kit on ebay with two 
of the older ni-cad batteries, a charger, hammer drill, sawzall, skillsaw, 
and bag for just under $300.  That was pretty much a no brainer.

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 11:37:19 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:37:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sharpening a woodworking chisel?
In-Reply-To: <4A3724DC.4070701@comcast.net>
References: <C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>
	<4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40906151840n268fc52eq614ff329cdad4b55@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3724DC.4070701@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906161037x4d795f6qffd707bf6d8dcf9b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Peter J. Thomas<pj_thomas at comcast.net>
wrote:
> David Scheidt wrote:
>> diamond stone.
>
> Matt writes that he has a single stone that is eight years old, though it
> may be a two sided combination stone. B So I suspect, one: it's not coarse
> enough to remove significant material and two: it is clogged and gummed up
> from oil and steel sitting and oxidizing over the years. B Assume it is a
two
> sided, it takes a lot of work with the fine side to remove the scratches
> from the coarse side. B Assume its single grit stone, its a even more work
to
> flatten a chisel back with a fine stone alone.
> You are correct, scary sharp can get expensive over time, but the one time
> cost for a half a dozen sheets is acceptable for the initial truing of the
> chisel set.

MIssed the "one stone" thing.  Yeah.  probably a two sided silicon
carbide stone.  They're a lot better tools then they're generally
given credit for.  the coarse side will remove material in a hurry,
but requires a fair amount of pressure.  The other thing is that they
should be used *dry*, not with oil.  And, as sold, they're machined to
size, so the top layer isn't a very effective cutting surface.  A
touch of flattening will take care of that, either with a dimaond
stone, if a suitably sized one is available, or failing that, a nice
flat piece of concrete.  There's a nearly infalliable way of cleaning
these stones, too:  a dishwasher.  If it's got lots of oil in it,
soaking in a tub of dishwasher soap and water will remove much of that
first.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jun 16 12:05:12 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:05:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Miata] Recreating Apollo 11
In-Reply-To: <F075EAC4AE1D4219AF3A6124CC846FE5@NoteBook>
References: <mailman.3.1245150003.17835.miata@list.realbig.com>
	<F075EAC4AE1D4219AF3A6124CC846FE5@NoteBook>
Message-ID: <4A37DED8.8060709@xxiii.com>

I'm only coming up on 43.  I have vivid memories of some early life 
events, but not the original moon shot.  Do remember seeing some of the 
later early 70s things, and the Apollo / Soyuz mission.

My big claim to space fame is being born on the same day Star Trek 
premiered, 9-8-66  ;)

-Wayne

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Tue Jun 16 19:38:41 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:38:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Miata] Recreating Apollo 11
In-Reply-To: <4A37DED8.8060709@xxiii.com>
References: <mailman.3.1245150003.17835.miata@list.realbig.com>
	<F075EAC4AE1D4219AF3A6124CC846FE5@NoteBook>
	<4A37DED8.8060709@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4A384921.1000105@verizon.net>

Wayne wrote:
> Do remember seeing some of the later early 70s things,

I voted for Nixon; does that count?

Dave C

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Jun 17 09:42:08 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:42:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Miata] Recreating Apollo 11
In-Reply-To: <4A37DED8.8060709@xxiii.com>
References: <mailman.3.1245150003.17835.miata@list.realbig.com><F075EAC4AE1D4219AF3A6124CC846FE5@NoteBook>
	<4A37DED8.8060709@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703164016@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Wayne wrote:
>
> I'm only coming up on 43.  I have vivid memories of some
> early life events, but not the original moon shot.  Do
> remember seeing some of the later early 70s things, and
> the Apollo / Soyuz mission.

I grew up during the early days of the space program.

I still vividly remember being 16, sitting on the floor of my
Grandparents farm house, in the middle of nowhere, and thinking of how
amazing it was that I was watching men walk on the moon for the first
time.  =8-O

It was all part of why I became a "Rocket Scientist" (degree in
Aerospace Engineering) when I grew up...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun 17 10:05:49 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:05:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: 1950's American cars looking for a home
Message-ID: <4A39145D.6030801@hornesystemstx.com>

A local junk yard has been stockpiling American cars from the 1950's for 
some time. They are shutting down due to highway construction and are 
planning on crushing them if they can't be sold.

They are located about 30 miles South of Austin, Texas. They are at 
Morrison Auto Parts, 1-512-376-2127. 13019 S Hwy 183, Mustang Ridge, Texas.

They have newer and possibly older vehicles also, but the older stuff is 
of higher priority to me.

I have no connection with this company, except as a satisfied customer.

Peace,
Pat

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Jun 17 10:39:03 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:39:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Elegant diagnosis
Message-ID: <0E0071BC9A0D4F2E86AF600887F38BE0@KARL>

Long ago I had a fading fuel pump in the '93 Suburban, starting on the home
leg of a road trip.  Got home OK, but it was the dead of winter, too cold and
snowy to comfortably change it outside.  Needing to go to the dealer for a
recall inspection anyway, I asked them to just change the pump based on its
symptoms.

A genius at the dealer promounced the pump perfect (pressure test), but tried
to sell me lots of other parts, even including the fan clutch (which over
120,000 miles later is just fine).  Took the truck home and kept looking for
the problem, "knowing" it wasn't the pump.

I finally found someone who could do the diagnosis - he put his scope meter in
series with the power line to the pump motor, and had a perfect picture of the
condition of each segment of the commutator.  The commutator was worn
completely through in several segments when I cut it apart for a post-mortem.
New pump and all was well.

Now, I might have another dying pump in the truck, but it's only seemed so
once and now it's fine.  Before I just change it because it's got 130,000
miles on it, is there any simple way to accomplish this scope diagnosis
without owning an actual scope ?  Maybe with a simple circuit and a laptop ??

Karl

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jun 17 11:45:20 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:45:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: 1950's American cars looking for a home
Message-ID: <4A392BB0.6090501@hornesystemstx.com>

I sent this out earlier, but didn't see it in my email, so I am sending 
it again.

A local junk yard has been stockpiling American cars from the 1950's for 
some time. They are shutting down due to highway construction and are 
planning on crushing them if they can't be sold.

They are located about 30 miles South of Austin, Texas. They are at 
Morrison Auto Parts, 1-512-376-2127. 13019 S Hwy 183, Mustang Ridge, Texas.

They have newer and possibly older vehicles also, but the older stuff is 
of higher priority to me.

I have no connection with this company, except as a satisfied customer.

Peace,
Pat

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jun 17 18:20:34 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:20:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Evaulating Chrome Plating
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906151236x722f252bg44ec3717c6db2aae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W26674B63B8040BFA37B500CC3E0@phx.gbl>
	<20090615035956358.KWPW22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> 
	<2400a5d40906151236x722f252bg44ec3717c6db2aae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W1F06524A113AFE62F6657CC3D0@phx.gbl>

Thanks Guys!  This is good and important information.  I will probably go
ahead and put my 'new' bumper guards in service and not be surprised when the
chrome starts to peel.  I also will not give him any of my spare bumpers to
re-chrome!

> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:36:27 -0400
> From: dmscheidt at gmail.com
> To: tr3driver at ca.rr.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> >> thus the copper isn't needed unless
> >> the metal is badly pitted.
> >
> > What I was told, long ago, was that it is very difficult to get nickel to
> > bond properly to steel. B If it's not done just right (some claim it's
> > impossible), then the resulting chrome will eventually peel. B Maybe not
> this
> > year, maybe not next, but it will peel.
> >
> >> B  They then leave the piece in the nickle for about
> >> 45 minutes, vs the usual 5-10.
> >
> > Sounds kind of haphazard. B For a quality job, there should actually be
two
> > separate layers of nickel, done under slightly different conditions. B I
> > forget the details offhand, but it has something to do with preventing
> > dissimilar metal corrosion. B Without the two layers, the part is more
apt
> to
> > rust. B Supposedly the nickel is what provides the corrosion resistance
and
> > much of the 'shine', the chrome just improves the appearance of the
nickel
> > and keeps it from tarnishing.
>
> Well, it depends on what you're plating, and why.  For something like
> a bumper, where you're after the shine, the best process is
> copper-coat the bare part, polish the copper to mirror smoothness,
> then two layers of nickel, followed by a very thin layer of chrome.
> The copper fills the surface of the part, and more readily takes a
> polish than steel.  The two layers of nickel are called bright and
> semi-bright.  I think, but can't remember, that the semi-bright goes
> first.  The bright nickel is a sacrificial coating (galvonically), and
> spreads the corrosion forces laterally, instead of through the
> coatings.
>
> for a part that's covered in what's called "hard chrome", where the
> chrome is a wear preventing surface, there's a slightly different
> procedure.  (Gun barrels and chambers, hydraulic cylinder bores and
> pistons, and the swivel balls of elderly Land-Rovers (LBC content!)
> are all hard chromed.)  The surface is prepared; typically that
> involves grinding it smooth, but sometimes some texture is put into
> it, if it's supposed to have it (to keep a film of oil, say).  Then
> the two (or sometimes three) layers of nickel are  put on, followed by
> a very much thicker layer of chrome.  These parts aren't usually super
> shiney, though they can be, if that's useful property.
>
> A part with only one layer of nickel might well look wonderful, but it
> won't stay that way.
>
>
> >> Is there any good
> >> way to tell the quality of a re-chroming job?
> >
> > Not that I know of.
> >
> > Randall
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net B http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com
> >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> > http://www.team.net/archive
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Bing  brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.   Try it
now.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_M
LOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Thu Jun 18 09:42:25 2009
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:42:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sharpening a woodworking chisel?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906161037x4d795f6qffd707bf6d8dcf9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C6690EE6-70A5-4771-9B06-47DB8E5E673C@trebelhorn.com>
	<4A36A28A.5030504@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40906151840n268fc52eq614ff329cdad4b55@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3724DC.4070701@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40906161037x4d795f6qffd707bf6d8dcf9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3990295D-7624-4FE3-9374-CAFF2549C39E@trebelhorn.com>

First, thanks for all of the helpful responses.

In answer to some specific points raised:

Yes, I've been using a two-sided stone.

I'd never considered that the blades might not be flat to begin with  
-- that the back might be dished -- so that's a huge help right off  
the bat.  Probably explains why one of the chisels seemed much easier  
to sharpen than the others.

The "scary sharp" method sounds like a decent idea, and probably one  
I will try when I have some time to kill, both in assembling the  
necessary grades of sandpaper and in the progressive polishing.

But for now, the first thing I'll try will be to clean the stone,  
flatten the chisels, and see how much that improves things.

Thanks again,
Matt

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jun 18 17:05:12 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:05:12 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] bead seating tool
In-Reply-To: <1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906122247120.4063@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1199A16397B143BB87F6D84844469F33@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <F2A8A7BF5CA9413697F7F1170D3882D6@jdnet.deere.com>

> Seating a bead with starter fluid
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdOWEFALdA

Hah ... look closer at that can.  Not "starting fluid" but WD-40!

-- Randall 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Jun 18 18:49:41 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:49:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] table saw
Message-ID: <15ABE7D23D9340ECBD1DE3D15BECA5BE@EricJRussellPC>

Some one was asking about a table saw recently. I think.

http://woodworker.com/PROMO/IRW10Kweb.htm

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jun 18 19:55:28 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:55:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] table saw
In-Reply-To: <15ABE7D23D9340ECBD1DE3D15BECA5BE@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <OF6FAF7EC6.7B3E2DB9-ON852575DA.000A8166-852575DA.000C010F@mail.megageek.com>

It was me, and I was resigned to not getting a table saw at this time, 
UNTIL I saw this sale.

Can anyone point me to the best deal in this line up?

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/18/2009 20:36

To
"shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] table saw






Some one was asking about a table saw recently. I think.

http://woodworker.com/PROMO/IRW10Kweb.htm

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jun 19 06:07:01 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:07:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fixing ni-cads
Message-ID: <OF89060097.25F0EE35-ON852575DA.00422EBA-852575DA.0043FF2E@mail.megageek.com>

I was going to list a tool that I have on ebay and I found this listing...

<http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Repair-Fix-For-FIRESTORM-9-6-12-Volt-Battery-10_W0QQitemZ230328399870QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a0a477fe&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50>

(it's item number 230328399870 in case that link doesn't work.)

Does anyone know what the "procedure" is?  I have lots of batteries that I 
could at least try this on. 

Thanks.


BTW, I was going to list a "B&D Firestorm drill driver"  (something like 
this... 
<http://www.blackanddecker.com/productguide/product-details.aspx?productid=6315&toolview=3#>) 
 

I think the charger is bad.  If anyone has a good battery and charger, for 
a 9.6v B&D system, drop me an email.  For the cost of shipping, it's 
yours!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jun 19 07:59:01 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:59:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fixing ni-cads
In-Reply-To: <OF89060097.25F0EE35-ON852575DA.00422EBA-852575DA.0043FF2E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF89060097.25F0EE35-ON852575DA.00422EBA-852575DA.0043FF2E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906190659m20a05ff4i64b34644488ced45@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:07 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I was going to list a tool that I have on ebay and I found this listing...
>
>
<http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Repair-Fix-For-FIRESTORM-9-6-12-Volt-Battery-10_W0QQ
itemZ230328399870QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a0a477fe&_t
rksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C240%3A13
18%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50>
>
> (it's item number 230328399870 in case that link doesn't work.)
>
> Does anyone know what the "procedure" is? B I have lots of batteries that I
> could at least try this on.

Dunno, but anyone who tries to sell 1.99 harbor freight mulitmeters
for 8 bucks is probably not trustworthy.




--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 19 09:28:28 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:28:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fixing ni-cads
In-Reply-To: <OF89060097.25F0EE35-ON852575DA.00422EBA-852575DA.0043FF2E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <20090619152827573.KLGU22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>

> Does anyone know what the "procedure" is?  I have lots of batteries that I
> could at least try this on.

Just a WAG, but I'd guess it's a variation of the old electro-shock
treatment.  

What happens with NiCad batteries in a pack is that one (or more) of the
cells in the pack ages faster than the others and won't take as much charge
during normal charging.  Then when you run the pack down, current continues
flowing through the pack even when that one cell goes to zero; reversing the
voltage on the cell.  As soon as that happens, NiCad cells will grow
tendrils of metal that short the plates together.  Applying a relatively
high current, high voltage pulse in the forward direction will sometimes
burn away the tendrils without burning away all of the plates; leaving a
cell that is still weak but functioning at perhaps 80% of where it was
before.

I supply the pulse by charging a relatively beefy capacitor up as high as my
bench supply will go, about 50 volts, and then discharging it through the
pack.  Repeat that a few times, then try charging the battery normally a bit
and see if the voltage comes up and stays where it should under a light
discharge.  If it's still 1.2v low, you can try the shock treatment again.

Works better if you can disassemble the pack and test/treat each cell
separately.

First round success rate is fairly good; but of course that one cell is
still weak and hence still quite prone to being reversed again.  Overall,
it's a stop-gap measure at best.

Randall

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Jun 19 14:07:28 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:07:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fixing ni-cads
In-Reply-To: <20090619152827573.KLGU22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
References: <OF89060097.25F0EE35-ON852575DA.00422EBA-852575DA.0043FF2E@mail.megageek.com>
	<20090619152827573.KLGU22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797031AE736@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randall wrote:
>
> Just a WAG, but I'd guess it's a variation of the old
> electro-shock treatment.

So, does the list now owe you the $20 fee that the ebay guy wanted? ;)

Tim Mullen

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 19 16:31:47 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:31:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fixing ni-cads
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797031AE736@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <OF89060097.25F0EE35-ON852575DA.00422EBA-852575DA.0043FF2E@mail.megageek.com><20090619152827573.KLGU22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797031AE736@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <2662498EA25A46C6B06F0438CB127C35@jdnet.deere.com>

> So, does the list now owe you the $20 fee that the ebay guy wanted? ;)

Yes, you do!  Please see the payment information at:
http://www.team.net/donate.html

-- Randall 

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Jun 19 16:06:21 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:06:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Screwing steel studs?
Message-ID: <9988A1F0-1A2D-4C91-B7BB-A2F9D826280F@groupwbench.org>

I bought some hex head self-tapping screws for this, but the heads  
don't engage the driver enough to stop wobbling, and the screws take  
forever to drill through the metal, both which conspire to have me  
repeatedly smashing the drill into the fingers trying to hold the  
screw. Sometimes I get lucky and the drill misses my fingers, but that  
means I've moved quickly enough to slice my hand on the stud.

Is there a special screw for this? The 'net won't give anything up.

thanks,
jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 19 17:36:34 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:36:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Screwing steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <9988A1F0-1A2D-4C91-B7BB-A2F9D826280F@groupwbench.org>
References: <9988A1F0-1A2D-4C91-B7BB-A2F9D826280F@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <EEB74A0B02524B7E8DC6D2B132D850A4@jdnet.deere.com>

> Is there a special screw for this? The 'net won't give anything up.

I believe you want a "self-drilling" screw instead of just self-tapping.
The tip actually looks like a drill bit.  I bought a box at Home Depot that
had round Philips heads and they work pretty well.  Here's some available at
MMC:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#tapping-screws/=2e22tm

-- Randall 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jun 19 18:03:46 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:03:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Screwing steel studs?
References: <9988A1F0-1A2D-4C91-B7BB-A2F9D826280F@groupwbench.org>
	<EEB74A0B02524B7E8DC6D2B132D850A4@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <9C9E35B9949C4F68832E20E5555FC332@KARL>

They come in hex head too - in fact I've only seen that kind (but never 
looked for others).  And there are magnetic hex driver bits that hold them 
well.  Maybe they're better fitted to the bits or something, but despite 
being clumsy and having mostly used them way up on a ladder, I've had almost 
no slip-smash incidents with them.

They're often referred to as stitch screws, and the one tradename that comes 
to mind it TEK -- TEKScrews.  I've used larger sizes (1/4") to drill into 
some relatively heavy-walled fence tubing and while they don't slip right 
in, it's only a few seconds before they drill through and start threading.

Karl




>> Is there a special screw for this? The 'net won't give anything up.
>
> I believe you want a "self-drilling" screw instead of just self-tapping.
> The tip actually looks like a drill bit.  I bought a box at Home Depot 
> that
> had round Philips heads and they work pretty well.  Here's some available 
> at
> MMC:
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#tapping-screws/=2e22tm
>
> -- Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Thu Jun 18 20:36:00 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:36:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] table saw
In-Reply-To: <OF6FAF7EC6.7B3E2DB9-ON852575DA.000A8166-852575DA.000C010F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6FAF7EC6.7B3E2DB9-ON852575DA.000A8166-852575DA.000C010F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A3AF990.5050104@verizon.net>

I would get the 3 HP with the Bies fence.  LT and RT mean Left Tilt and 
Right Tilt blade.  It's a personal preference, depending on what you're 
used to.  A lot of people prefer the LT as it doesn't trap your stock 
against the fence and the blade isn't as close to your fingers on some 
cuts.  I think it's largely a matter of personal preference and 
experience.

3HP is plenty for a 10" saw for 99% of what just about anyone will be 
doing  unless you plan to routinely rip 4" thick hardwood all day.  I 
have a 3HP 10" Grizzly and it has plenty of power.  I also have the 
Unisaw's big brother, the (no longer available) Delta 12"-14" saw and it 
has a 5HP motor to drive a 14" blade, so 3 is plenty for a 10" blade.  A 
lot depends on the quality and thickness of the blade, too, as well as 
the tooth count.  You'll probably want to get a good combination blade 
pretty quick as the Delta blades I've seen on new saws aren't the 
greatest.  An Amana 40-odd tooth combination blade (available on Amazon) 
is hard to beat.  Freud makes some good blades, too.

The Biesmeyer fence is pretty much standard in the industry now.  It's 
so popular that Grizzly and others have cloned it.  IMO the Unifence is 
an overengineered piece (actually a number of pieces) of junk.  The 
fence proper and the alignment rail are both aluminum extrusions.  The 
Bies is steel; you set it up and forget about it.  The Biesmeyer fence 
is so good that Delta bought them out several years ago but they keep 
the name separate to continue selling the fence to people with other saws.

Don't forget to factor shipping costs into your budget...

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> It was me, and I was resigned to not getting a table saw at this time,
> UNTIL I saw this sale.
>
> Can anyone point me to the best deal in this line up?
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
>
>
>
> "Eric J Russell"<ejrussell at mebtel.net>
> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 06/18/2009 20:36
>
> To
> "shop-talk"<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> cc
>
> Subject
> [Shop-talk] table saw
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Some one was asking about a table saw recently. I think.
>
> http://woodworker.com/PROMO/IRW10Kweb.htm
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
> You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jun 19 18:38:57 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:38:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] table saw
In-Reply-To: <4A3AF990.5050104@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <OF4FCF99C1.31A35E7F-ON852575DB.000368AC-852575DB.00050087@mail.megageek.com>

Thanks for the advice.  I was trying to avoid this purchase everyway I 
could.

Then the sale.

Then you advised me (rightfully so) to watch the shipping costs.

Then, I see in the add "free shipping!"  Damn it.   I need to buy a table 
saw now!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net> 
06/19/2009 20:07

To
eric at megageek.com
cc
Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net>, shop-talk 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] table saw






I would get the 3 HP with the Bies fence.  LT and RT mean Left Tilt and 
Right Tilt blade.  It's a personal preference, depending on what you're 
used to.  A lot of people prefer the LT as it doesn't trap your stock 
against the fence and the blade isn't as close to your fingers on some 
cuts.  I think it's largely a matter of personal preference and 
experience.

3HP is plenty for a 10" saw for 99% of what just about anyone will be 
doing  unless you plan to routinely rip 4" thick hardwood all day.  I 
have a 3HP 10" Grizzly and it has plenty of power.  I also have the 
Unisaw's big brother, the (no longer available) Delta 12"-14" saw and it 
has a 5HP motor to drive a 14" blade, so 3 is plenty for a 10" blade.  A 
lot depends on the quality and thickness of the blade, too, as well as 
the tooth count.  You'll probably want to get a good combination blade 
pretty quick as the Delta blades I've seen on new saws aren't the 
greatest.  An Amana 40-odd tooth combination blade (available on Amazon) 
is hard to beat.  Freud makes some good blades, too.

The Biesmeyer fence is pretty much standard in the industry now.  It's 
so popular that Grizzly and others have cloned it.  IMO the Unifence is 
an overengineered piece (actually a number of pieces) of junk.  The 
fence proper and the alignment rail are both aluminum extrusions.  The 
Bies is steel; you set it up and forget about it.  The Biesmeyer fence 
is so good that Delta bought them out several years ago but they keep 
the name separate to continue selling the fence to people with other saws.

Don't forget to factor shipping costs into your budget...

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> It was me, and I was resigned to not getting a table saw at this time,
> UNTIL I saw this sale.
>
> Can anyone point me to the best deal in this line up?
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
>
>
>
> "Eric J Russell"<ejrussell at mebtel.net>
> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 06/18/2009 20:36
>
> To
> "shop-talk"<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> cc
>
> Subject
> [Shop-talk] table saw
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Some one was asking about a table saw recently. I think.
>
> http://woodworker.com/PROMO/IRW10Kweb.htm
>
> Eric Russell

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jun 19 19:00:33 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:00:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Help springs (sort of)
Message-ID: <OF616A473D.0A1DF60B-ON852575DB.00055B2D-852575DB.0006FACE@mail.megageek.com>

I have a 2001 Ford Explorer that I use to trailer lots of things with. The 
rear end sags and I was wondering if anyone had any experience with 
Timbren suspension kits.  They seem to be what I'm looking for.  But I 
just wanted to see if anyone had anything good or bad to say about them. 
Also, is this place a good site to deal with?  Thanks

http://www.truckspring.com/VSearchResults2.aspx?cID=739&pt=189&fv=583

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Jun 19 17:53:59 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:53:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Screwing steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <EEB74A0B02524B7E8DC6D2B132D850A4@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <9988A1F0-1A2D-4C91-B7BB-A2F9D826280F@groupwbench.org>
	<EEB74A0B02524B7E8DC6D2B132D850A4@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <61B536F9-EBDB-4095-A0F7-2D812710A669@groupwbench.org>

On Jun 19, 2009, at 7:36 PM, Randall wrote:

>> Is there a special screw for this? The 'net won't give anything up.
>
> I believe you want a "self-drilling" screw

Yea, that's what I meant to say I had. The red mist was still thick  
and clouding my typing.

I'll try a Craftsman socket rather than the misc 5/16 driver; the  
driver seems a bit loose fit.

jim

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Jun 19 18:36:16 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:36:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Screwing steel studs?
In-Reply-To: <9988A1F0-1A2D-4C91-B7BB-A2F9D826280F@groupwbench.org>
References: <9988A1F0-1A2D-4C91-B7BB-A2F9D826280F@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <1318C629-F42A-4226-91AC-1B36E0C50000@groupwbench.org>

Something I just realized is that the protruding hex heads will keep  
the sheetrock off the framing. I'm building a kitchen soffit. So,  
either I auger out relief divots before placing the sheetrock, or I  
solder the studs & tracks. Is the latter a viable option? Or should I  
just toss it all and stick to wood? :-)

thanks,
jim

From jferguson at bellsouth.net  Fri Jun 19 20:11:48 2009
From: jferguson at bellsouth.net (Jim Ferguson)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:11:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
Message-ID: <4A3C4564.90405@bellsouth.net>

In 1992 I sealed my MGA fuel tank with a POR-15 product.  The car was 
was finally on the road in 2005.  I drove for about 5000 miles with no 
problems.  On a trip to PA in '08 I got some 10% ethanol fuel.  Within 
200 miles the fuel intake was clogged.  I drained and cleaned the tank 
as best I could and had no problem for the next 2500 miles.  This year 
driving to Key West(950 miles) I got some 10% ethanol fuel.  Within 150 
miles--clogged intake. I drained the tank and got sheets of liner larger 
than a dollar bill.

POR-15 web site has the following info and cleaning procedure posted:

"PVC-type non-curing sealer is yellow in color and will dissolve
in gasoline containing alcohol and other additives..."

"First, pour in about a quart of stripper and let it work on each inside 
surface.  It may take 4 strippings to do the job completely. The old
finish may come loose in chunks or pieces or strips, so a long 
tweezertype tool is helpful for removal."

The ethanol seems to have pealed some of the sealer but I question even 
with paint stripper whether I can ever it it all out.  The baffles are 
blocking any vision or tweezers.  Access is a small drain hole in one 
section, the filler and the sender hole in another and nothing in the 
third.

Is there anything what will dissolve the sealer and let it be flushed 
out effectively?   Any ideals???

Jim

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Jun 19 20:35:35 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:35:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <4A3C4564.90405@bellsouth.net>
References: <4A3C4564.90405@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <1F353B824A49408C8D0A9F3EDEF4397B@EricJRussellPC>

Some 'olde-fashioned' radiator shops (the one on the wrong side of the 
tracks) will 'boil out' a gas tank (empty of course) thoroughly stripping 
it.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Ferguson" <jferguson at bellsouth.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:11 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank


> In 1992 I sealed my MGA fuel tank with a POR-15 product.  T
>
> Is there anything what will dissolve the sealer and let it be flushed
> out effectively?   Any ideals???
>
> Jim

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jun 19 20:50:34 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:50:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <1F353B824A49408C8D0A9F3EDEF4397B@EricJRussellPC>
References: <4A3C4564.90405@bellsouth.net>
	<1F353B824A49408C8D0A9F3EDEF4397B@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906191950s766647aew5bc37dd49e62810a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Eric J Russell<ejrussell at mebtel.net> wrote:
> Some 'olde-fashioned' radiator shops (the one on the wrong side of the
> tracks) will 'boil out' a gas tank (empty of course) thoroughly stripping
> it.
>

best procedure is bake the tank (to get all of the gas out), cut a
hole or holes (or, on a soldered tank, unsolder), sandblast the
inside, weld up the holes or resolder the seams, and then coat inside
and out with an expoxy sealant.

Boiling out the tank may, or may not get the gunk out.  (depends on
what solvent they use in the hot tank and what the sealer is).

I'll point out that if there's anyone selling a gas tank sealer that's
vulnerable to ethanol in 2009, they're a criminal fraud.  In many
areas, it's simply impossible to get gasoline that doesn't have
ethanol in it.  Many states no longer require (or in at least a few
instances, forbid) the labeling of pumps as "may contain ethanol.".



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mbarre at juno.com  Fri Jun 19 21:13:12 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 03:13:12 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Help springs (sort of)
Message-ID: <20090619.231312.17015.3@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

When in put a slide-in camper in my 97 Dodge 3500 dually, I added air bags.  I
believe they were Firestone brand.  Worked well, easy install, and I don't
think they were very expensive.
Matt

---------- Original Message ----------
From: eric at megageek.com
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Help springs (sort of)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:00:33 -0400

I have a 2001 Ford Explorer that I use to trailer lots of things with. The
rear end sags and I was wondering if anyone had any experience with
Timbren suspension kits.  They seem to be what I'm looking for.  But I
just wanted to see if anyone had anything good or bad to say about them.
Also, is this place a good site to deal with?  Thanks

http://www.truckspring.com/VSearchResults2.aspx?cID=739&pt=189&fv=583

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTOVoMQEUW3y9foBf3xfBnIX8ESN
rSKib81fuCPvOQJnu7pYNBaouc/

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jun 19 23:22:16 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:22:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906191950s766647aew5bc37dd49e62810a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090620052217228.ZGQ4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>

> best procedure is bake the tank (to get all of the gas out), cut a
> hole or holes (or, on a soldered tank, unsolder), sandblast the
> inside, weld up the holes or resolder the seams, and then coat inside
> and out with an expoxy sealant.

Which, BTW, my radiator shop will do.  They will even throw in a lifetime
warranty.
http://www.gastankrenu.com/loc-dealer.htm

> I'll point out that if there's anyone selling a gas tank sealer that's
> vulnerable to ethanol in 2009, they're a criminal fraud. 

Seems like a tough argument to me; unless they specifically said it was
compatible with ethanol.  It's not really POR-15's fault if you choose to
run your car on paint remover.

Even when the state says it's that or walk.

Randall

From lane495 at nctc.com  Sat Jun 20 06:06:04 2009
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 07:06:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Help springs (sort of)
References: <20090619.231312.17015.3@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <F4826F65E30D4F039F6FE0C78A49EC61@osiris>

I'll second Matt's air bag decision.  I installed air bags on my truck that 
is used to haul round hay rolls.  They automatically adjust to the load and 
prevent that squatty look.

http://www.herhayhauler.com/images/airbags.JPG

Patricia

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 20 10:10:02 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:10:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <20090620052217228.ZGQ4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
References: <2400a5d40906191950s766647aew5bc37dd49e62810a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090620052217228.ZGQ4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906200910mcf7e755u85f82e5291347808@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:22 AM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I'll point out that if there's anyone selling a gas tank sealer that's
>> vulnerable to ethanol in 2009, they're a criminal fraud.
>
> Seems like a tough argument to me; unless they specifically said it was
> compatible with ethanol. B It's not really POR-15's fault if you choose to
> run your car on paint remover.
>

They're selling something as "gas tank sealer" which is not compatible
with gasoline.
That's pretty sleazy.  (And, in some states, will run afoul of the
implied warranty of merchantability, leaving them on the hook for
repairs.)


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Jun 20 11:48:35 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:48:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Help springs (sort of)
In-Reply-To: <F4826F65E30D4F039F6FE0C78A49EC61@osiris>
References: <20090619.231312.17015.3@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
	<F4826F65E30D4F039F6FE0C78A49EC61@osiris>
Message-ID: <4A3D20F3.4010202@verizon.net>

Just make sure all the rest of the truck (including the tires) can 
handle the load...

A couple of weeks ago I hauled a load of alder lumber home in the back 
of my half ton, short bed GMC 2WD pickup.  About 620 board feet....Way 
overloaded.  I had to stop in route and buy a new pair of rear tires as 
the overload shredded one of the rear tires.  They were OEM General 
tires, probably not the best, and they had 45K miles on them, but still, 
I wasn't ready for a new set of tires just then.

Dave C

Patricia Lane wrote:
> I'll second Matt's air bag decision.  I installed air bags on my truck
> that is used to haul round hay rolls. They automatically adjust to the
> load and prevent that squatty look.
>
> http://www.herhayhauler.com/images/airbags.JPG
>
> Patricia
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jem at milleredp.com  Sat Jun 20 14:12:54 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:12:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Help springs (sort of)
In-Reply-To: <4A3D20F3.4010202@verizon.net>
References: <20090619.231312.17015.3@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
	<F4826F65E30D4F039F6FE0C78A49EC61@osiris>
	<4A3D20F3.4010202@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4A3D42C6.9030703@milleredp.com>

> A couple of weeks ago I hauled a load of alder lumber home in the back 
> of my half ton, short bed GMC 2WD pickup.  About 620 board feet....Way 
> overloaded.  I had to stop in route and buy a new pair of rear tires as 
> the overload shredded one of the rear tires.  They were OEM General 
> tires, probably not the best, and they had 45K miles on them, but still, 
> I wasn't ready for a new set of tires just then.

I once filled the back of my 3/4-ton '91 Suburban with 90lb sacks of 
ready-mix, then did the math while I was driving home and just about 
crapped.  Fortunately, the tires are slightly oversize Load Range E 
things, and I'd had them well aired-up.  It didn't even put the thing on 
the bumpstops or otherwise cause any distressing vehicle behavior.

Since I've decided to keep the thing a while, I'm actually thinking of 
swapping out the 8600GVW springs for springs out of a 6500GVW version to 
soften the unladen/lightly loaded ride a bit, and add some air helper 
springs to get the load-carrying capacity back.  Anyone have any 
thoughts on that approach?

John.

From cak at dimebank.com  Sat Jun 20 15:22:17 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Help springs (sort of)
Message-ID: <200906202122.n5KLMHeI028021@moose.dimebank.com>

Sometimes, paying the delivery charge is well worth it.

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 20 19:44:43 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:44:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906200910mcf7e755u85f82e5291347808@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2400a5d40906191950s766647aew5bc37dd49e62810a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090620052217228.ZGQ4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> 
	<2400a5d40906200910mcf7e755u85f82e5291347808@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W230B31DBF15C8DD6F956C3E1380@phx.gbl>

Jim said:

In 1992 I sealed my MGA fuel tank with a POR-15 product.



He also said he found this on their website:
"PVC-type non-curing sealer is yellow in color and will dissolve
in gasoline containing alcohol and other additives..."


He did not say they were still selling it.

The gas sold in this country has changed a lot in the last seventeen years.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

'63 TR3B TCF587L

That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

See it moves!




> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:10:02 -0400
> From: dmscheidt at gmail.com
> To: tr3driver at ca.rr.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:22 AM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I'll point out that if there's anyone selling a gas tank sealer that's
> >> vulnerable to ethanol in 2009, they're a criminal fraud.
> >
> > Seems like a tough argument to me; unless they specifically said it was
> > compatible with ethanol. B It's not really POR-15's fault if you choose
to
> > run your car on paint remover.
> >
>
> They're selling something as "gas tank sealer" which is not compatible
> with gasoline.
> That's pretty sleazy. (And, in some states, will run afoul of the
> implied warranty of merchantability, leaving them on the hook for
> repairs.)
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jun 20 23:34:16 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:34:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906200910mcf7e755u85f82e5291347808@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090621053416851.TLOE4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>

> They're selling something as "gas tank sealer" which is not compatible
> with gasoline.

No, it's not compatible with ethanol.  Ethanol is not gasoline (which is a
good thing if you happen to enjoy alcoholic beverages).

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 21 09:19:20 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:19:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <20090621053416851.TLOE4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
References: <2400a5d40906200910mcf7e755u85f82e5291347808@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090621053416851.TLOE4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906210819o102ae95ch9e510780770357e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> They're selling something as "gas tank sealer" which is not compatible
>> with gasoline.
>
> No, it's not compatible with ethanol. B Ethanol is not gasoline (which is a
> good thing if you happen to enjoy alcoholic beverages).

So if it claimed "not compatible with toluene", you'd be okay with
that?  Even though it's impossible to buy gasoline that doesn't
contain toluene?  Since, after all, toluene isn't gasoline.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Sun Jun 21 09:40:38 2009
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:40:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906210819o102ae95ch9e510780770357e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2400a5d40906200910mcf7e755u85f82e5291347808@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090621053416851.TLOE4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40906210819o102ae95ch9e510780770357e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220906210840p1394d9efpf2a0418157f78899@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 11:19 AM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> >> They're selling something as "gas tank sealer" which is not compatible
> >> with gasoline.
> >
> > No, it's not compatible with ethanol. B Ethanol is not gasoline (which is
> a
> > good thing if you happen to enjoy alcoholic beverages).
>
> So if it claimed "not compatible with toluene", you'd be okay with
> that?  Even though it's impossible to buy gasoline that doesn't
> contain toluene?  Since, after all, toluene isn't gasoline.
>
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>


There was no Ethanol in gasoline when he sealed his tank in 1992.  The new
product is compatible with EtOH.

http://www.por15.com/US-STANDARD-TANK-SEALER/productinfo/TSG/

It's not fair to hold them accountable for their old product not being
compatible with the current (and different than what was used when they sold
the old stuff) formulation for fuels sold today.

-Paul

From jferguson at bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 21 09:56:32 2009
From: jferguson at bellsouth.net (Jim Ferguson)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:56:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220906210840p1394d9efpf2a0418157f78899@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2400a5d40906200910mcf7e755u85f82e5291347808@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090621053416851.TLOE4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40906210819o102ae95ch9e510780770357e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220906210840p1394d9efpf2a0418157f78899@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A3E5830.4010906@bellsouth.net>

I did not mean to imply that Poe 15 was at fault. Their current product 
is fine.  I used what is now an obsolete product not compatible with 
current fuels.  The sealer worked fine for over 10 years until it 
encountered ethanol fuels.  I just can't find a way to confidently get 
it completely out.

Jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 21 09:59:11 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:59:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906210819o102ae95ch9e510780770357e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090621155912131.YVBW4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>

> So if it claimed "not compatible with toluene", you'd be okay with
> that?

Sure.  I wouldn't buy it, because it wouldn't be suitable for my
application.  But lots of things aren't suitable for my application.

>  Even though it's impossible to buy gasoline that doesn't
> contain toluene? 

Actually it is quite possible.  Coleman camping fuel, for example, meets the
definition of "gasoline" but has no toluene in it.  And with the proper
licenses, etc. you can buy any petroleum fraction that you want.

But since the fuel I buy for my car has both toluene and ethanol, anything
that *I select* to install in my car had best be compatible with those (and
lots of other) chemicals.

> Since, after all, toluene isn't gasoline.

That point is also debatable.  "Gasoline" is defined as a blend of
hydrocarbons distilled from petroleum.  Toluene fits that description,
ethanol does not.

What's next, gonna sue Ford because not all their cars will run on E85
without damage?

Randall

From shochschild at att.net  Sun Jun 21 14:11:38 2009
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:11:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <20090621155912131.YVBW4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
References: <20090621155912131.YVBW4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4A3E93FA.6000302@att.net>

Global warming is the new Y2K, a made up crisis created to generate 
revenues by taking advantage of the gullibility of the general 
populace.  Ethanol is not an appropriate fuel for our transportation 
needs, but our government has mandated its use. 

If anyone should be sued it would be the fools who are so focussed on 
the Iowa primaries that they have burdened the rest of us with their 
need for political points.

Mr Grumpy



Randall wrote:
>> So if it claimed "not compatible with toluene", you'd be okay with
>> that?
>>     
>
> Sure.  I wouldn't buy it, because it wouldn't be suitable for my
> application.  But lots of things aren't suitable for my application.
>
>   
>>  Even though it's impossible to buy gasoline that doesn't
>> contain toluene? 
>>     
>
> Actually it is quite possible.  Coleman camping fuel, for example, meets the
> definition of "gasoline" but has no toluene in it.  And with the proper
> licenses, etc. you can buy any petroleum fraction that you want.
>
> But since the fuel I buy for my car has both toluene and ethanol, anything
> that *I select* to install in my car had best be compatible with those (and
> lots of other) chemicals.
>
>   
>> Since, after all, toluene isn't gasoline.
>>     
>
> That point is also debatable.  "Gasoline" is defined as a blend of
> hydrocarbons distilled from petroleum.  Toluene fits that description,
> ethanol does not.
>
> What's next, gonna sue Ford because not all their cars will run on E85
> without damage?
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 21 16:01:32 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:01:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <4A3E93FA.6000302@att.net>
Message-ID: <20090621220133027.JCHB22702@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>

> If anyone should be sued it would be the fools who are so focussed on
> the Iowa primaries that they have burdened the rest of us with their
> need for political points.

Or possibly the people that re-elected them?  They pull that kind of stunt
because it works...

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jun 21 16:36:14 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
Message-ID: <518981.99930.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You brought up a point that IMHO is a bit more interesting that the 
current
subject of this thread:  If you spill ordinary gasoline on your hands, it
stinks for the rest of the day.  But if you spill Coleman fuel on your hands,
it has no residual odor after it evaporates.  Otherwise
camping would be a lot
less pleasant. :-)

Doug

--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
wrote:

> From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk]
Cleaning a sealed gas tank
> To: 
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date:
Sunday, June 21, 2009, 11:59 AM
> > So if it claimed "not compatible
> with
toluene", you'd be okay with
> > that?
> 
> Sure.  I wouldn't buy it, because
it wouldn't be
> suitable for my
> application.  But lots of things aren't
suitable for
> my application.
> 
> >  Even though it's impossible to buy
gasoline that
> doesn't
> > contain toluene? 
> 
> Actually it is quite
possible.  Coleman camping fuel,
> for example, meets the
> definition of
"gasoline" but has no toluene in it. 
> And with the proper
> licenses, etc.
you can buy any petroleum fraction that you
> want.
> 
> But since the fuel I
buy for my car has both toluene and
> ethanol, anything
> that *I select* to
install in my car had best be compatible
> with those (and
> lots of other)
chemicals.
> 
> > Since, after all, toluene isn't gasoline.
> 
> That point is
also debatable.  "Gasoline" is defined
> as a blend of
> hydrocarbons
distilled from petroleum.  Toluene fits
> that description,
> ethanol does
not.
> 
> What's next, gonna sue Ford because not all their cars will
> run on
E85
> without damage?

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Jun 21 16:50:46 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:50:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
References: <518981.99930.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <274C0641062843CDB67838D66386C98E@KARL>

Same for aviation gasoline - the only residual odor is very mild and not 
unpleasant.



> You brought up a point that IMHO is a bit more interesting that the
> current
> subject of this thread:  If you spill ordinary gasoline on your hands, it
> stinks for the rest of the day.  But if you spill Coleman fuel on your 
> hands,
> it has no residual odor after it evaporates. 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 21 16:57:25 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:57:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <518981.99930.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090621225725215.GGGX4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>

> You brought up a point that IMHO is a bit more interesting that the
> current subject of this thread:  If you spill ordinary gasoline on your
> hands, it stinks for the rest of the day.  But if you spill Coleman fuel
> on your hands, it has no residual odor after it evaporates.  Otherwise
> camping would be a lot less pleasant. :-)

OTOH if I recall correctly, it has a really lousy octane, like maybe 50.  A
Model T might run on it, but I wouldn't try it in any car newer than that.

Because of the regenerative process used to pressurize the tank on some
Coleman appliances; and some of the catalyst-based heaters that use it,
Coleman fuel has to be very pure.  It's also kind of expensive to use as
motor fuel.

Randall

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun 21 19:26:48 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:26:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
Message-ID: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I remember a long time ago there were some people that had X-10 
knowledge, and since some of these devices are in my shop, it's shop 
related.  8>)

Here is the problem...

I have a few locations that don't seem to work all the time.  One is a 
light switch (I changed out the X-10 switch to ensure it wasn't a faulty 
unit.)  No matter how I address that unit, it doesn't work.  Even pressing 
on the button ON THE SWITCH, it doesn't turn on or off about 80% of the 
time.

then some times it works fine. 

When it doesn't work, I have used remotes, "all unit off" devices, and the 
button on the switch.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with the 
bulbs.  But I don't know how to troubleshoot this issue any further. 
Again, it works correctly about 20% of the time, so it's not a complete 
failure.

I do have a "cross over" unit in my circuit breaker box, but the switch on 
the device would rule out that as a problem.

Here is the switch type that I'm using...

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ws467.htm

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From trevor at boicey.com  Sun Jun 21 20:18:09 2009
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:18:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A3EE9E1.3030101@boicey.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> When it doesn't work, I have used remotes, "all unit off" devices, and the 
> button on the switch.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with the 
> bulbs.  But I don't know how to troubleshoot this issue any further. 
> Again, it works correctly about 20% of the time, so it's not a complete 
> failure.

   Interference is also a concern. My wife used to have a computer that 
would knock out X-10 whenever it was turned on.

   I got around that by switching the power supply with a PC at work...

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Jun 22 05:49:10 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 06:49:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <4A3EE9E1.3030101@boicey.com>
References: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A3EE9E1.3030101@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0906220449n20abba3em74123362b0b56715@mail.gmail.com>

I used to have a flourescent light with a cheap electronic ballast
that would cause all sorts of problems for my X-10 system.  I bought a
filter from Smart home and wired it into the fixture.  It solved the
issue for a while, then the crappy ballast finally gave out.  After I
installed a good magnetic ballast, the filter was no longer needed.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Trevor Boicey<trevor at boicey.com> wrote:
> eric at megageek.com wrote:
>>
>> When it doesn't work, I have used remotes, "all unit off" devices, and the
>> button on the switch.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with the
>> bulbs.  But I don't know how to troubleshoot this issue any further.
Again,
>> it works correctly about 20% of the time, so it's not a complete failure.
>
>  Interference is also a concern. My wife used to have a computer that would
> knock out X-10 whenever it was turned on.
>
>  I got around that by switching the power supply with a PC at work...
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun 22 06:45:12 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:45:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0906220449n20abba3em74123362b0b56715@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF4A0A7B36.33CBF7E8-ON852575DD.0045E9BE-852575DD.00477FC6@mail.megageek.com>

Thanks, but the problem is that this is an incandescent fixture (3 bulbs.) 
 All the bulbs are good.

Does anyone know if there is troubleshooting equipment for X10  (excuse to 
buy some tools.)  8>)

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> 
06/22/2009 07:34

To
Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com>
cc
eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] X-10 help






I used to have a flourescent light with a cheap electronic ballast
that would cause all sorts of problems for my X-10 system.  I bought a
filter from Smart home and wired it into the fixture.  It solved the
issue for a while, then the crappy ballast finally gave out.  After I
installed a good magnetic ballast, the filter was no longer needed.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Trevor Boicey<trevor at boicey.com> wrote:
> eric at megageek.com wrote:
>>
>> When it doesn't work, I have used remotes, "all unit off" devices, and 
the
>> button on the switch.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with 
the
>> bulbs.  But I don't know how to troubleshoot this issue any further. 
Again,
>> it works correctly about 20% of the time, so it's not a complete 
failure.
>
>  Interference is also a concern. My wife used to have a computer that 
would
> knock out X-10 whenever it was turned on.
>
>  

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 22 07:46:09 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 06:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <125738.52813.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Temporarily move the switch closer to the unit and
test. I know this defeats
the purpose of where it is
located, but distance can occasionally cause some
wierd issues.  If it works for a while, then you could
look into x10
repeaters. Some are made for wireless
while others work with the wired units.
I've also had the receiver unit hang at the light. Mine
is a plug in unit.
Occcasionally I have to unplug it
to get it to cycle. It fails in both modes.
Either doesn't
turn off, or doesn't turn on. Usual length of working
time is
about two to three months of cycling daily. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: "eric at megageek.com" <eric at megageek.com>
To:
shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 9:26:48 PM
Subject:
[Shop-talk] X-10 help

OK, I remember a long time ago there were some people
that had X-10 
knowledge, and since some of these devices are in my shop, it's
shop 
related.  8>)

Here is the problem...

I have a few locations that don't
seem to work all the time.  One is a 
light switch (I changed out the X-10
switch to ensure it wasn't a faulty 
unit.)  No matter how I address that
unit, it doesn't work.  Even pressing 
on the button ON THE SWITCH, it doesn't
turn on or off about 80% of the 
time.

then some times it works fine. 

When
it doesn't work, I have used remotes, "all unit off" devices, and the 
button
on the switch.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with the 
bulbs. 
But I don't know how to troubleshoot this issue any further. 
Again, it works
correctly about 20% of the time, so it's not a complete 
failure.
(snip)

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Jun 22 07:54:58 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:54:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <125738.52813.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>
	<125738.52813.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0906220654nccd9bc0h7add7126e9f607c8@mail.gmail.com>

Anopther thing to check is if the transmitter and reciever are on
opposite legs of your 220 service.  X-10 can ususally bridge across a
220V appliance like a furnace or airconditioner.  But you might get
spotty operation if no such appliance is powered.  I had this issue in
our previuous home, when the furnace blower was running, X-10 worked
fine.  WHen the blower was off, one particualr receiver never worked.
In that case I moved the receiver, because it in a location where
another outlet on the opposite leg was readily available.  If that is
not an option for you, there are signal bridges that will couple the
X-10 signal.  I have seen these that plug into a dryer outlet and some
that can be hard wired.

Smarthome does sell X-10 test equipment, but I have never used any of
it.  Pretty pricy for a tool that doesn't do much.  If you are handy
with an oscilliscope, you should be able to get more info in a more
versitle tool.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Battmain<battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Temporarily move the switch closer to the unit and
> test. I know this defeats
> the purpose of where it is
> located, but distance can occasionally cause some
> wierd issues.  If it works for a while, then you could
> look into x10
> repeaters. Some are made for wireless
> while others work with the wired units.
> I've also had the receiver unit hang at the light. Mine
> is a plug in unit.
> Occcasionally I have to unplug it
> to get it to cycle. It fails in both modes.
> Either doesn't
> turn off, or doesn't turn on. Usual length of working
> time is
> about two to three months of cycling daily.
>
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "eric at megageek.com" <eric at megageek.com>
> To:
> shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 9:26:48 PM
> Subject:
> [Shop-talk] X-10 help
>
> OK, I remember a long time ago there were some people
> that had X-10
> knowledge, and since some of these devices are in my shop, it's
> shop
> related.  8>)
>
> Here is the problem...
>
> I have a few locations that don't
> seem to work all the time.  One is a
> light switch (I changed out the X-10
> switch to ensure it wasn't a faulty
> unit.)  No matter how I address that
> unit, it doesn't work.  Even pressing
> on the button ON THE SWITCH, it doesn't
> turn on or off about 80% of the
> time.
>
> then some times it works fine.
>
> When
> it doesn't work, I have used remotes, "all unit off" devices, and the
> button
> on the switch.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with the
> bulbs.
> But I don't know how to troubleshoot this issue any further.
> Again, it works
> correctly about 20% of the time, so it's not a complete
> failure.
> (snip)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Jun 22 08:21:44 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:21:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <OF4A0A7B36.33CBF7E8-ON852575DD.0045E9BE-852575DD.00477FC6@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF4A0A7B36.33CBF7E8-ON852575DD.0045E9BE-852575DD.00477FC6@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A3F9378.2050205@milleredp.com>

> Does anyone know if there is troubleshooting equipment for X10  (excuse to 
> buy some tools.)  8>)

Yeah, there's receivers and signal-strength meters and etc. out there, 
probably start by looking around smarthome.com or googling for 'Leviton 
DHC'

What kind of receiver/switch unit is being used, are both the 
transmitter and receiver on the same circuit, are they both on the same 
leg of the 220 service, etc?

John.

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun 22 08:16:43 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:16:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <4A3F9378.2050205@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <OF0D9950E3.4ABDBADB-ON852575DD.004E5250-852575DD.004FE0A8@mail.megageek.com>

John asks...

>What kind of receiver/switch unit is being used, are both the 
>transmitter and receiver on the same circuit, are they both on the same 
>leg of the 220 service, etc?


John, it's not just the remote commands that aren't working.  The button, 
on the device, doesn't always work.  Like I said, I tried 3 different 
switch units in this location and each act the same way.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/22/2009 10:07

To
Shop-Talk Mailing List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] X-10 help






> Does anyone know if there is troubleshooting equipment for X10  (excuse 
to 
> buy some tools.)  8>)

Yeah, there's receivers and signal-strength meters and etc. out there, 
probably start by looking around smarthome.com or googling for 'Leviton 
DHC'

What kind of receiver/switch unit is being used, are both the 
transmitter and receiver on the same circuit, are they both on the same 
leg of the 220 service, etc?

John.
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Jun 22 08:58:05 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 09:58:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <OF0D9950E3.4ABDBADB-ON852575DD.004E5250-852575DD.004FE0A8@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4A3F9378.2050205@milleredp.com>
	<OF0D9950E3.4ABDBADB-ON852575DD.004E5250-852575DD.004FE0A8@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0906220758t57156c75rbd02d0a1e031b311@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible this on a light switch that used to be part of a
three-way or four-way circuit?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 9:16 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> John asks...
>
>>What kind of receiver/switch unit is being used, are both the
>>transmitter and receiver on the same circuit, are they both on the same
>>leg of the 220 service, etc?
>
>
> John, it's not just the remote commands that aren't working.  The button,
> on the device, doesn't always work.  Like I said, I tried 3 different
> switch units in this location and each act the same way.
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
>
>
>
> John Miller <jem at milleredp.com>
> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 06/22/2009 10:07
>
> To
> Shop-Talk Mailing List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Does anyone know if there is troubleshooting equipment for X10  (excuse
> to
>> buy some tools.)  8>)
>
> Yeah, there's receivers and signal-strength meters and etc. out there,
> probably start by looking around smarthome.com or googling for 'Leviton
> DHC'
>
> What kind of receiver/switch unit is being used, are both the
> transmitter and receiver on the same circuit, are they both on the same
> leg of the 220 service, etc?
>
> John.
> You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Jun 22 09:16:27 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:16:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <OF0D9950E3.4ABDBADB-ON852575DD.004E5250-852575DD.004FE0A8@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF0D9950E3.4ABDBADB-ON852575DD.004E5250-852575DD.004FE0A8@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A3FA04B.6060004@milleredp.com>

> John, it's not just the remote commands that aren't working.  The button, 
> on the device, doesn't always work.  Like I said, I tried 3 different 
> switch units in this location and each act the same way.

Can you describe the wiring to this fixture?

The 'traditional' cheapie X10 wall-switch replacements do not use a 
neutral wire at the fixture, they expect to be able to get their neutral 
across the filament of the bulb being switched.

If there's something weird about the fixture - the bulbs being used, 
truly funky wiring, CF bulbs, etc - it may not be getting enough current 
to work.

John.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Jun 22 09:18:58 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:18:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <20090620052217228.ZGQ4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
References: <2400a5d40906191950s766647aew5bc37dd49e62810a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090620052217228.ZGQ4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797031AE965@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randall wrote:
>
>> I'll point out that if there's anyone selling a gas tank sealer
>> that's vulnerable to ethanol in 2009, they're a criminal fraud.
>
> Seems like a tough argument to me; unless they specifically said
> it was compatible with ethanol.  It's not really POR-15's fault
> if you choose to > run your car on paint remover.

Besides, the original post said:

    In 1992 I sealed my MGA fuel tank with a POR-15 product.

It's really hard to blame POR-15 for a 16 year old product...

Tim Mullen

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Jun 22 09:24:47 2009
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:24:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0906220654nccd9bc0h7add7126e9f607c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com>
	<125738.52813.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<abb8688a0906220654nccd9bc0h7add7126e9f607c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A3FA23F.3050301@boicey.com>

John Innis wrote:
> Smarthome does sell X-10 test equipment, but I have never used any of
> it.  Pretty pricy for a tool that doesn't do much.  If you are handy
> with an oscilliscope, you should be able to get more info in a more
> versitle tool.

   I have borrowed an X-10 tester and it was useful but too expensive to 
own... it was this one:

http://www.smarthomeusa.com/ShopByManufacturer/ELK-Products/Item/ESM1/

   Basically, the bar graph shows the signal strength and there is also 
a light that comes on when a valid X-10 signal is received.

   It is very noticeable how the signal strength can be an order of 
magnitude different between plugs.

   I also had issues with spurious signals... you get in the hot tub and 
freeze your balls off because it's been off for three days for no reason...

   However you can certainly use it... if you see a weak signal, then 
you know, or if you see a constant background of X-10 noise that isn't 
being sent on purpose, then you know...

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jun 22 12:58:54 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:58:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
In-Reply-To: <4A3FA23F.3050301@boicey.com>
References: <OF1FD83875.3D54CBF6-ON852575DD.000742FD-852575DD.000963D8@mail.megageek.com><125738.52813.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com><abb8688a0906220654nccd9bc0h7add7126e9f607c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3FA23F.3050301@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <EAB2CE17E13F4FD78514871D9AC1E13A@jdnet.deere.com>

>    However you can certainly use it... if you see a weak signal, then
> you know, or if you see a constant background of X-10 noise that isn't
> being sent on purpose, then you know...

Of course, it may not be constant interference.  We used to have several
'touch' lamps in our bedroom that worked fine.  But soon after moving to our
current home, they started acting up.  Would work fine for days on end, then
start turning themselves on and off; sometimes cycling madly for seconds at
a time and then stopping apparently at random.

We eventually figured out that the next door neighbor was an amateur radio
operator, and when he keyed his transmitter on in certain bands it caused
the lights to sense a 'touch'.

They were good neighbors otherwise, so we simply quit using the touch lamps.
  
-- Randall 

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Mon Jun 22 18:51:56 2009
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:51:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
References: <OF4A0A7B36.33CBF7E8-ON852575DD.0045E9BE-852575DD.00477FC6@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <DAB9AB139FC346F7994920A40FF8CF95@stargate>

You may also have interference elsewhere in the house.  My refrigerator 
caused intermittant problems with my system until I put a filter on it.  As 
mentioned, flouresent lights can be a problem.  I still have a couple of 
intermittant devices, one has been traced to a faulty Leviton wall 
controller, known problem, just no $$$ or motivation to fix it right now.
A labor intensive troubleshoot is to unplug individually any suspect 
interference causers (fridge, furnace, well/sump pumps, flour lights, etc) 
and check the operation of the switch each time.  Once you locate the 
culprit the fix should be fairly easy.

HTH
Gordie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] X-10 help


> Thanks, but the problem is that this is an incandescent fixture (3 bulbs.)
> All the bulbs are good.
>
> Does anyone know if there is troubleshooting equipment for X10  (excuse to
> buy some tools.)  8>)
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
>
>
>
> John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com>
> 06/22/2009 07:34
>
> To
> Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com>
> cc
> eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject
> Re: [Shop-talk] X-10 help
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I used to have a flourescent light with a cheap electronic ballast
> that would cause all sorts of problems for my X-10 system.  I bought a
> filter from Smart home and wired it into the fixture.  It solved the
> issue for a while, then the crappy ballast finally gave out.  After I
> installed a good magnetic ballast, the filter was no longer needed.
>
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Trevor Boicey<trevor at boicey.com> wrote:
>> eric at megageek.com wrote:
>>>
>>> When it doesn't work, I have used remotes, "all unit off" devices, and
> the
>>> button on the switch.  This leads me to believe that it has to do with
> the
>>> bulbs.  But I don't know how to troubleshoot this issue any further.
> Again,
>>> it works correctly about 20% of the time, so it's not a complete
> failure.
>>
>>  Interference is also a concern. My wife used to have a computer that
> would
>> knock out X-10 whenever it was turned on.
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> =================================
> = Never offend people with style when you   =
> = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =

From nases at verizon.net  Wed Jun 24 16:58:23 2009
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:58:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Tacoma rust
Message-ID: <956E25EE-CB16-4855-97D5-CAC9CC2F66AC@verizon.net>

My 2004 Tacoma with 55,000 miles is being called in for frame rust  
inspection.  if the rust is bad enough they want to replace the frame.

Aside from my disappointment with Toyota I think I have a problem with  
the local dealership replacing an entire frame.  With the older  
Tacomas the factory bought back the vehicle at up to $14,000.  But  
since the newer truck frames are available they have chosen to replace  
the frames.

I wonder whether the local guys have the experience needed to do this  
"factory" work.

Anyone else been through this?  Any suggestions.  This of course after  
I just put 4 new Michelins on it.

Damn.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/

From mbarre at juno.com  Wed Jun 24 17:09:08 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:09:08 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Tacoma rust
Message-ID: <20090624.190908.14286.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

If that is the way it ultimately turns out, at least try not to be the first
one they do!  The later the better...
MB

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Phil Nase <nases at verizon.net>
To: shop talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Tacoma rust
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:58:23 -0400

My 2004 Tacoma with 55,000 miles is being called in for frame rust
inspection.  if the rust is bad enough they want to replace the frame.

Aside from my disappointment with Toyota I think I have a problem with
the local dealership replacing an entire frame.  With the older
Tacomas the factory bought back the vehicle at up to $14,000.  But
since the newer truck frames are available they have chosen to replace
the frames.

I wonder whether the local guys have the experience needed to do this
"factory" work.

Anyone else been through this?  Any suggestions.  This of course after
I just put 4 new Michelins on it.

Damn.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTOVoLtJzexVDDm41VpkQ21RN6Xp
67brA7qGs3yhNgccctiDJlmGNC/

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jun 24 17:23:11 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:23:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Tacoma rust
In-Reply-To: <956E25EE-CB16-4855-97D5-CAC9CC2F66AC@verizon.net>
References: <956E25EE-CB16-4855-97D5-CAC9CC2F66AC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <3C571183CCB143A4AD06D707607668F1@jdnet.deere.com>

> I wonder whether the local guys have the experience needed to do this
> "factory" work.

I don't see why it would be any worse on a pickup truck than on a Triumph;
and the Triumph guys seem to get through it.  Just unbolt everything
including the body, then bolt it all back onto the new frame.  But according
to a newspaper article I found, they expect less than 2% of all trucks to
exhibit the problem (which apparently is a lack of undercoating).
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/toyota-offers-to-buy-back-rusty-t
acomas/
So chances are only 1 in 50 that your truck will need a new frame.

I also don't understand why you are "disappointed" with Toyota ... do you
think they left off the coating on purpose?  Seems to me that they are going
overboard to ensure that the problem is rectified.

Ironically, the defective trucks were made at the plant in Fremont, CA,
which was a joint venture between Toyota and GM (according to the article
above).

-- Randall 

From nases at verizon.net  Wed Jun 24 17:45:28 2009
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:45:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Tacoma rust
In-Reply-To: <3C571183CCB143A4AD06D707607668F1@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <956E25EE-CB16-4855-97D5-CAC9CC2F66AC@verizon.net>
	<3C571183CCB143A4AD06D707607668F1@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <D37E0D22-6888-491C-BA8F-C59A7B344BDF@verizon.net>

No I don't think they left off the anti-corrosion on purpose.  But I  
am disappointed none the less because I am not entirely confident in a  
repair that is not a routinely performed repair and that in some way  
this is going to impact my selling or trade value.  I've seen some  
miraculous restorations of British cars but in my opinion those guys  
are as much craftsmen as mechanics and a totally different type of  
operation.

I am unwilling to sell it and not disclose the issue privately.  I  
wonder what the dealer will give me for it as is.  I don't know yet  
but I'd be willing to bet it won't be blue book.

Not to mention I'm not ready right now to trade and buy a new  
vehicle.  I wanted to keep this for at least another 2 years before  
spending more money.  They seem to be making the effort as this is not  
a "recall"  but a customer satisfaction issue. At least that's their  
story.  As a confirmed skeptic I would be more willing to believe they  
are covering their legal ass.

I guess I will find out later this week.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Jun 24, 2009, at 7:23 PM, Randall wrote:

>> I wonder whether the local guys have the experience needed to do this
>> "factory" work.
>
> I don't see why it would be any worse on a pickup truck than on a  
> Triumph;
> and the Triumph guys seem to get through it.  Just unbolt everything
> including the body, then bolt it all back onto the new frame.  But  
> according
> to a newspaper article I found, they expect less than 2% of all  
> trucks to
> exhibit the problem (which apparently is a lack of undercoating).
> http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/toyota-offers-to-buy-back-rusty-t
> acomas/
> So chances are only 1 in 50 that your truck will need a new frame.
>
> I also don't understand why you are "disappointed" with Toyota ...  
> do you
> think they left off the coating on purpose?  Seems to me that they  
> are going
> overboard to ensure that the problem is rectified.
>
> Ironically, the defective trucks were made at the plant in Fremont,  
> CA,
> which was a joint venture between Toyota and GM (according to the  
> article
> above).
>
> -- Randall 

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Jun 24 17:43:47 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:43:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, update
Message-ID: <OFE004FC94.8B0C6877-ON852575DF.0082302E-852575DF.0083CC7C@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I put it off long enough.  I looked for every excuse to NOT buy a new 
table saw, but this deal was just to great.  (I really couldn't find 
another site selling it nearly as low.)

I put my order in at about 0900 today and the table saw was on a truck by 
1340!

I'll let you know how it is when I get it.



Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 24 19:40:33 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:40:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toyota Tacoma rust
In-Reply-To: <D37E0D22-6888-491C-BA8F-C59A7B344BDF@verizon.net>
References: <956E25EE-CB16-4855-97D5-CAC9CC2F66AC@verizon.net>
	<3C571183CCB143A4AD06D707607668F1@jdnet.deere.com> 
	<D37E0D22-6888-491C-BA8F-C59A7B344BDF@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W356714A6F1397DDE945941E1340@phx.gbl>

What about using the cash for clunkers program?


Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

'63 TR3B TCF587L

That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

See it moves!

From invite+kkxqrarn at facebookmail.com  Wed Jun 24 21:50:45 2009
From: invite+kkxqrarn at facebookmail.com (Robert L Lane)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:50:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Check out my photos on Facebook
Message-ID: <70e124ce1a84828d1d59b0c9c8a5c64b@localhost.localdomain>

Hi shop-talk,

I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events
and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join
Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile.

Thanks,
Robert

To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1002849910&k=R6AY6YVXRZ5M5AEBTAW4SR&r


shop-talk at autox.team.net was invited to join Facebook by Robert L Lane. If you
do not wish to receive this type of email from Facebook in the future, please
click on the link below to unsubscribe.
http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=84db90&u=1312538126&mid=acf143G4e3bbe0eG0G8
Facebook's offices are located at 1601 S. California Ave., Palo Alto, CA
94304.

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jun 25 10:56:58 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:56:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
Message-ID: <OF1747B0FE.D51B22BD-ON852575E0.005CA55A-852575E0.005E8FCC@mail.megageek.com>

Just to keep everyone up to date on the new shop.

I decided on a "FarmTek" supplied building.  They have the best warrantee 
(lifetime on poles, 15 year on the covering.)  They were a little more, 
but it should be worth it in the end.

I'm putting in a 38' X 40' X 14' building (this sized offered the best 
price range and fits the area I wanted it best.)

I'm also paving the area first.

The paving is just shy of $6K and the building I got for just shy of $10.

I looked into hard sided buildings, but the township was just to much of a 
pain with permits and set backs.  (I have 15 acres and they are treating 
me like I have a 50'X50' lot in the middle of the town!)

I'll post plenty of pictures throughout the process.

If anyone is thinking about a building, I can give you the name of the guy 
at FarmTek that I worked with.  He spent a bunch of time answering 
questions and helping me find the right building. 

I'll let you know how it comes out.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Jun 25 11:15:50 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:15:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
References: <OF1747B0FE.D51B22BD-ON852575E0.005CA55A-852575E0.005E8FCC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <9448D77992444A8EA79B10CC613D8B4A@KARL>

Interesting - lots like my hangar, though I added permanent walls to keep 
the banditos out.  Which model did you get ??

Karl


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage


> Just to keep everyone up to date on the new shop.
>
> I decided on a "FarmTek" supplied building.  They have the best warrantee
> (lifetime on poles, 15 year on the covering.)  They were a little more,
> but it should be worth it in the end.
>
> I'm putting in a 38' X 40' X 14' building (this sized offered the best
> price range and fits the area I wanted it best.)
>
> I'm also paving the area first.
>
> The paving is just shy of $6K and the building I got for just shy of $10.
>
> I looked into hard sided buildings, but the township was just to much of a
> pain with permits and set backs.  (I have 15 acres and they are treating
> me like I have a 50'X50' lot in the middle of the town!)
>
> I'll post plenty of pictures throughout the process.
>
> If anyone is thinking about a building, I can give you the name of the guy
> at FarmTek that I worked with.  He spent a bunch of time answering
> questions and helping me find the right building.

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Thu Jun 25 11:33:24 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:33:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <OF1747B0FE.D51B22BD-ON852575E0.005CA55A-852575E0.005E8FCC@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1747B0FE.D51B22BD-ON852575E0.005CA55A-852575E0.005E8FCC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0906251033s75618253hfb797ff9c1cc410e@mail.gmail.com>

So does this work when you are putting the building up on a paved pad?
 I have seen these put up before where they basically build the
building, then poured the floor, but not one built on an existing pad.
 Do they cut the pad to put in the posts, or do you have to put
anchors in the pad where the frame/posts are going to go?

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I'm also paving the area first.
>
> The paving is just shy of $6K and the building I got for just shy of $10.
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jun 25 11:38:39 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:38:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <9448D77992444A8EA79B10CC613D8B4A@KARL>
Message-ID: <OFD3A9B361.3BE0945F-ON852575E0.0060DB41-852575E0.00626079@mail.megageek.com>

I got the storage master building, with the built in skylighting down the 
center.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net> 
06/25/2009 13:08
Please respond to
"Karl Vacek" <KVacek at Ameritech.net>


To
<shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>, <eric at megageek.com>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage







Interesting - lots like my hangar, though I added permanent walls to keep 
the banditos out.  Which model did you get ??

Karl


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage


> Just to keep everyone up to date on the new shop.
>
> I decided on a "FarmTek" supplied building.  They have the best 
warrantee
> (lifetime on poles, 15 year on the covering.)  They were a little more,
> but it should be worth it in the end.
>
> I'm putting in a 38' X 40' X 14' building (this sized offered the best
> price range and fits the area I wanted it best.)
>
> I'm also paving the area first.
>
> The paving is just shy of $6K and the building I got for just shy of 
$10.
>
> I looked into hard sided buildings, but the township was just to much of 
a
> pain with permits and set backs.  (I have 15 acres and they are treating
> me like I have a 50'X50' lot in the middle of the town!)
>
> I'll post plenty of pictures throughout the process.
>
> If anyone is thinking about a building, I can give you the name of the 
guy
> at FarmTek that I worked with.  He spent a bunch of time answering
> questions and helping me find the right building.

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Jun 25 11:40:29 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:40:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0906251033s75618253hfb797ff9c1cc410e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFBED9ED52.3E12240B-ON852575E0.0060F1A4-852575E0.00628B8C@mail.megageek.com>

What I am doing is paving a pad that is 1 foot smaller in each dimension 
of the building.  That way, any snow or water on the vehicles will run to 
the sides and drop into the ground (the pavement is crowned.)

There is also a 65' X 12' driveway to the new building in that paving 
cost.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> 
06/25/2009 13:19

To
eric at megageek.com
cc
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage






So does this work when you are putting the building up on a paved pad?
 I have seen these put up before where they basically build the
building, then poured the floor, but not one built on an existing pad.
 Do they cut the pad to put in the posts, or do you have to put
anchors in the pad where the frame/posts are going to go?

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I'm also paving the area first.
>
> The paving is just shy of $6K and the building I got for just shy of 
$10.
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jun 27 16:47:39 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:47:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
Message-ID: <OFA8AE6B58.EEFEBAD4-ON852575E2.007C3121-852575E2.007EAC7A@mail.megageek.com>

I have a question about mailbox posts.  Does anyone know if there is a 
requirement for your mailbox to "break away" if a car hits it?

Here is my problem, in my rural area of NJ, we get lots of wet snow.  The 
plow drivers are off season NASCAR drivers practicing their time trials as 
they plow.

So my mail box next knocked down every now and then. 

The first step I did was to pave about 10' in from the edge of the road. 
This means there is now a 10' gap from where they are plowing to my 
mailbox.  It didn't take them long to figure out the new speeds they need 
to go in order to knock it down at that distance.

The county says they are not responsible for mailboxes knocked over by 
plows.  (and I need to stay on the good side of my county guys.)

So, I figured I'd make a mailbox post that was indestructible.

What I did was take 2 1/2" rebar posts (two of them) and concreted them 
into the ground 20" and they are 19" apart.  Then I welded a 6" C beam 
across the top of them, and welded another 6" C beam to that for the 
mailbox to be attached to.

But I started thinking (always dangerous for me to do) that if a car was 
to go off the road and hit this thing, it would be "Car, meet immovable 
object" and I was wondering if I'm liable.

Now don't get me wrong, if there are any requirements, I'll just add a 
guardrail around this thing as the mail box isn't going anywhere anytime 
soon.

I'll post pictures the first nice day I get of the mail boxes, and the two 
navigational buoys I added to the end of my driveway for those of you with 
more time on your hands then you need.  8>)

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sat Jun 27 17:17:52 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 16:17:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
Message-ID: <EDB63B3210CC4B1481BBC72612F52DD6@B50SS>

Hi guys,

This is off-topic and I apologize, but I trust the wisdom of this group.

I have a ~20K gallon swimming pool here in the Los Angeles area and would like
to build a solar pool heater.

My pool pump and filter are at a lower elevation than the pool, and I have
plenty of space adjacent to the pump with a good southern exposure. Given that
the array would be lower than the pool, this seems like a natural for solar
heating (should not take much pump with the inherent gravity flow)

I am looking at the commercial solutions that use flat black rubber panels
that are intended for roof mount, but I was wondering if I could fabricate a
"solar collector" out of PVC pipe painted black or use ABS pipe either in a
parallel or "serpentine" array with a small, efficient, separate pump (I have
two inlets to the pool and could just create one "loop" for the solar heater).

I know there are a lot of sizing issues, will the pipe stand up to the
heat/pressure, etc., but since I have the space and don't need to do a roof
mount (the array would be on a down-side hill and would not need be
visible/nee to be attractive), I am wondering what you think about using
conventional plastic plumbing materials to create a solar array?

I could just frame it at the optimal solar angle and lay the pipes adjacent
side-by-side, or could put a black back-plate made of most any material, or
could get fancy and put the pipe in a "box" with a glass top to trap the heat,
etc.

But I am thinking that with a surface area of the same size or even twice the
size of the pool, a sizable array of black plastic pipe just sitting in the
SoCal sun could pump a great deal of heat into the pool without any fancy
efforts.

It seems to me that it should work. If I am missing something here, PLEASE let
me know. Thanks in advance guys.

best,

doug

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Jun 27 17:26:24 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 23:26:24 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
Message-ID: <20090627.192624.1299.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

When I lived in Mobile, AL it seemed the "hot thing to do" for the HS kids was
tumping over brick mailboxes.  It seemes the typical construction was to pour
a failr small concrete base and then just run the brick on it.  They
apparently were not that hard to tump into the street.
I sunk several pieces of rebar through the core and bored into the ground
before filling it with concrete.  No way they were gonna tip that - then I
considered the car impact issue.
I searched but couldn't find anything about mail box spec except for min/max
height and distance from the curb - all based on it being reachable by the
mail person.  If you think about it, how would you measure the frangiblity?
Some of those a pretty massive and incorporate planters, etc.  Some
neighborhoods have pretty massive brick entrances, they aren't break-away.
I recall that one of the neighbors had a beautiful, somewhat intricate stacked
stone mail box that looked pretty fragile...  He surrounded it with some
serious posts about 3' high that would have done a number on any encroaching
cars.
Looking forward to your pix!
Matt


---------- Original Message ----------
From: eric at megageek.com
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:47:39 -0400

I have a question about mailbox posts.  Does anyone know if there is a
requirement for your mailbox to "break away" if a car hits it?

Here is my problem, in my rural area of NJ, we get lots of wet snow.  The
plow drivers are off season NASCAR drivers practicing their time trials as
they plow.

So my mail box next knocked down every now and then.

The first step I did was to pave about 10' in from the edge of the road.
This means there is now a 10' gap from where they are plowing to my
mailbox.  It didn't take them long to figure out the new speeds they need
to go in order to knock it down at that distance.

The county says they are not responsible for mailboxes knocked over by
plows.  (and I need to stay on the good side of my county guys.)

So, I figured I'd make a mailbox post that was indestructible.

What I did was take 2 1/2" rebar posts (two of them) and concreted them
into the ground 20" and they are 19" apart.  Then I welded a 6" C beam
across the top of them, and welded another 6" C beam to that for the
mailbox to be attached to.

But I started thinking (always dangerous for me to do) that if a car was
to go off the road and hit this thing, it would be "Car, meet immovable
object" and I was wondering if I'm liable.

Now don't get me wrong, if there are any requirements, I'll just add a
guardrail around this thing as the mail box isn't going anywhere anytime
soon.

I'll post pictures the first nice day I get of the mail boxes, and the two
navigational buoys I added to the end of my driveway for those of you with
more time on your hands then you need.  8>)

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 27 18:08:29 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 20:08:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <OFA8AE6B58.EEFEBAD4-ON852575E2.007C3121-852575E2.007EAC7A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFA8AE6B58.EEFEBAD4-ON852575E2.007C3121-852575E2.007EAC7A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906271708o73ea699fsaa4128f81f993cf4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 6:47 PM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I have a question about mailbox posts. B Does anyone know if there is a
> requirement for your mailbox to "break away" if a car hits it?
>
> Here is my problem, in my rural area of NJ, we get lots of wet snow. B The
> plow drivers are off season NASCAR drivers practicing their time trials as
> they plow.
>
> So my mail box next knocked down every now and then.

We solved this problem by getting a long (14 or 16 feet) 4X4, digging
(with a tractor auger) a hole deep enough that it sticks out the usual
3 or 4 feet, filling the hole with concrete, and setting the post in
it.  It's been there 15 years.

>
> The first step I did was to pave about 10' in from the edge of the road.
> This means there is now a 10' gap from where they are plowing to my
> mailbox. B It didn't take them long to figure out the new speeds they need
> to go in order to knock it down at that distance.
>
> The county says they are not responsible for mailboxes knocked over by
> plows. B (and I need to stay on the good side of my county guys.)
>
> So, I figured I'd make a mailbox post that was indestructible.
>
> What I did was take 2 1/2" rebar posts (two of them) and concreted them
> into the ground 20" and they are 19" apart. B Then I welded a 6" C beam
> across the top of them, and welded another 6" C beam to that for the
> mailbox to be attached to.
>
> But I started thinking (always dangerous for me to do) that if a car was
> to go off the road and hit this thing, it would be "Car, meet immovable
> object" and I was wondering if I'm liable.
>

I'm not aware of anything.  USPS just cares about it being suitable
for mail.  Your state, county, or city might have rules, but I doubt
it.

(When I was in high school, I spun out of control on ice, slid off the
road, and hit the driver's front wheel of me VW pickup on a mailbox
post.  It was made of an old barn beam, 14 or 16 inches square, and
who knows how deep.  I destroyed the front axle and fender of the
truck, spun around the post 270 degrees.  Didn't hurt the damn post
one bit.  scumbag who owned the house wouldn't even let me use a phone
to call a tow truck.  Had to walk a mile to the next house.  14" oak
beams don't last long against mr Stihl, it turned out.  )

> Now don't get me wrong, if there are any requirements, I'll just add a
> guardrail around this thing as the mail box isn't going anywhere anytime
> soon.
>
> I'll post pictures the first nice day I get of the mail boxes, and the two
> navigational buoys I added to the end of my driveway for those of you with
> more time on your hands then you need. B 8>)
>
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net B http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Sat Jun 27 18:53:34 2009
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 20:53:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <OFA8AE6B58.EEFEBAD4-ON852575E2.007C3121-852575E2.007EAC7A@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFA8AE6B58.EEFEBAD4-ON852575E2.007C3121-852575E2.007EAC7A@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A46BF0E.80605@comcast.net>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I have a question about mailbox posts.  Does anyone know if there is a 
> requirement for your mailbox to "break away" if a car hits it?
>
> Here is my problem, in my rural area of NJ, we get lots of wet snow.  The 
> plow drivers are off season NASCAR drivers practicing their time trials as 
> they plow.
>   
Growing up I had a neighbor who had his mailbox take out regularly by 
the plow.  Town said tough luck.  He was a well driller so he set up his 
rig and bored into the bedrock.  He then insert an old drilling shaft 
into hole and set is mail box on top.  It was hit by the plow only once 
after that.

Peter T.

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 27 18:59:31 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 19:59:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
In-Reply-To: <EDB63B3210CC4B1481BBC72612F52DD6@B50SS>
References: <EDB63B3210CC4B1481BBC72612F52DD6@B50SS>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W14CCE59580E4748BA59F66E1330@phx.gbl>

I have been thinking about the same thing.  You might find this URL
interesting.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PoolHeating/pool_heating.htm



I took some sump pump hose and have created a coil from each of two 24 foot
lengths.

I have two of them connected in series and plan to put them between the pump
discharge and the pool.

Our pool is currently 92 degrees, so my solar heater must be working great!!

I wonder how much better it will work when I hook them up. %^)



Looking forward to cooler weather so I can check my design.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

'63 TR3B TCF587L

That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

See it moves!




> From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 16:17:52 -0700
> Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
>
> Hi guys,
>
> This is off-topic and I apologize, but I trust the wisdom of this group.
>
> I have a ~20K gallon swimming pool here in the Los Angeles area and would
like
> to build a solar pool heater.
>
> My pool pump and filter are at a lower elevation than the pool, and I have
> plenty of space adjacent to the pump with a good southern exposure. Given
that
> the array would be lower than the pool, this seems like a natural for solar
> heating (should not take much pump with the inherent gravity flow)
>
> I am looking at the commercial solutions that use flat black rubber panels
> that are intended for roof mount, but I was wondering if I could fabricate
a
> "solar collector" out of PVC pipe painted black or use ABS pipe either in a
> parallel or "serpentine" array with a small, efficient, separate pump (I
have
> two inlets to the pool and could just create one "loop" for the solar
heater).
>
> I know there are a lot of sizing issues, will the pipe stand up to the
> heat/pressure, etc., but since I have the space and don't need to do a roof
> mount (the array would be on a down-side hill and would not need be
> visible/nee to be attractive), I am wondering what you think about using
> conventional plastic plumbing materials to create a solar array?
>
> I could just frame it at the optimal solar angle and lay the pipes adjacent
> side-by-side, or could put a black back-plate made of most any material, or
> could get fancy and put the pipe in a "box" with a glass top to trap the
heat,
> etc.
>
> But I am thinking that with a surface area of the same size or even twice
the
> size of the pool, a sizable array of black plastic pipe just sitting in the
> SoCal sun could pump a great deal of heat into the pool without any fancy
> efforts.
>
> It seems to me that it should work. If I am missing something here, PLEASE
let
> me know. Thanks in advance guys.
>
> best,
>
> doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jem at milleredp.com  Sat Jun 27 19:03:59 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:03:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <4A46BF0E.80605@comcast.net>
References: <OFA8AE6B58.EEFEBAD4-ON852575E2.007C3121-852575E2.007EAC7A@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A46BF0E.80605@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4A46C17F.5080606@milleredp.com>

> Growing up I had a neighbor who had his mailbox take out regularly by 
> the plow.  Town said tough luck.  He was a well driller so he set up his 
> rig and bored into the bedrock.  He then insert an old drilling shaft 
> into hole and set is mail box on top.  It was hit by the plow only once 
> after that.

I was thinking something reinforced concrete three feet in diameter, 
jacketed with 3/8in steel, and with hot water pumped through it to melt 
any snow that builds up around the mailbox so the plow guy can't help 
but see it.

But eventually you end up with a mailbox that costs as much to run as 
the house...

John.

From crothfuss at coastalnet.com  Sat Jun 27 19:04:13 2009
From: crothfuss at coastalnet.com (crothfuss at coastalnet.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 21:04:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
Message-ID: <24224078.1246151054114.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

-----Original Message-----

>I have a question about mailbox posts.  Does anyone know if there is a 
>requirement for your mailbox to "break away" if a car hits it?

Last notice I got from the Postmaster encouraged me to use a wooden post, but didn't require it.  

>Here is my problem, in my rural area of NJ, we get lots of wet snow.  The 
>plow drivers are off season NASCAR drivers practicing their time trials as 
>they plow.

My Dad made a mailbox post out of a 6" auger bit.  The mailbox still got knocked off, but the post never moved.  After many, many years a car finally ran it over...and it popped back up, almost straight.  Seems there was a 1" cable through the center of the bit, and while the outside had cracked, the cable nearly popped the pole back up.  After straightening with the tractor, it was still there when Mom sold the farm several years ago.

My mailbox was similar, but made from three right hand helix Detroit Diesel 8-71 blower rotors, pressed together end to end.  It tore a Mustang GT door skin completely off, but it "broke away."  

Your mailbox post sounds like it's gonna hold up to anything.  Solid is good, but may be a liability.  I did see the opposite-of-solid solution in central Michigan.  Rural dirt roads have the same kinda snowplow troubles as you mentioned.  The local solution was extremely long horizontal poles suspended from above with chain attached to nearby trees.  When the box gets slammed it simply swings freely right or left and upward, once the plow clears the post swings back to it's normal rest position near the road.   

Look forward to pictures.

Chuck

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Jun 27 19:54:21 2009
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:54:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <4A46C17F.5080606@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <647501038.74051246154061882.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I've been following this thread since the beginning.

I have the opposite problem - the snow plow operators stay a good 3 feet away from our mail box.  Meaning the snow is well and thoroughly piled up in a nice row in front of the mail box so the delivery can't be made.   All twelve feet of road is packed into the two or three feet in front of the box.

I'd rather they take out my box occasionally than to leave me to move the 30 ft long by 3 ft wide by 2-3-4-5 ft deep pile that greets me every snowy morning :(

Maybe a breakaway box that can be easily be reset would suit?
Donald.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Miller" <jem at milleredp.com>
To: "Shop-Talk Mailing List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 9:03:59 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes

> Growing up I had a neighbor who had his mailbox take out regularly by 
> the plow.  Town said tough luck.  He was a well driller so he set up his 
> rig and bored into the bedrock.  He then insert an old drilling shaft 
> into hole and set is mail box on top.  It was hit by the plow only once 
> after that.

I was thinking something reinforced concrete three feet in diameter, 
jacketed with 3/8in steel, and with hot water pumped through it to melt 
any snow that builds up around the mailbox so the plow guy can't help 
but see it.

But eventually you end up with a mailbox that costs as much to run as 
the house...

John.

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Sat Jun 27 22:09:50 2009
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 23:09:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
References: <647501038.74051246154061882.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1B3FB13A285240E58F2E6ACC4CBAE805@Dell9200>

We have a guy down the road from me that has welded three or four automotive 
coil springs together and mounted his mail box on top of it.  I can just 
imagine what it would do to a car that smacked it.  It has been there for at 
least 20 years so something must be working.  Then there is my neighbor that 
spent two days making a really nice mail box mount and then the next day ran 
over it backing his boat trailer out of the drive.

Mark
Nashville
http://www.arrestmered.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Jun 27 22:34:01 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:34:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
Message-ID: <0KLX00ACOM1TWOH0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Here is some interesting (well, not THAT interesting) reading for you:
(I live in NY.  Haven't found the NJ equivalent yet.)

https://www.nysdot.gov/divisions/engineering/design/dqab/hdm/chapter-10/roadside-safety/mailboxes

http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/1000/1700/1702/moh.pdf

It is not clear to me just what the laws actually are on this, but 
immovable mailboxes are certainly discouraged.  This seems to be more 
the domain of the relevant highway department than the post 
office.  And they seem equally concerned about other things in their 
right of way, so I don't know if your guard rail idea would meet with 
their approval either.  And then there could always be a liability 
issue.  I always used the 4x4 post with the arm sticking out, like 
sold in Home Depot and elsewhere.  I found that the plow would always 
break the arm holding the box off from the post from the twisting 
action.  I made my own in more of a "T" style, with the box mounted 
so it is centered over the post.  I have found this much more able to 
withstand the blast of snow from the plow.  If the plow actually 
drives over the thing, the plow is going to win.  And this doesn't do 
anything to thwart vandals with nothing better to do.  As for the box 
itself, I just use a cheap one and keep a spare one on hand.  Six 
screws and it is replaced.  Buy another spare next trip to the 
store.  Of course this strategy works if it is a once a year 
thing.  If it happens every other day, you'll have to come up with a 
different plan.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 06:47 PM 6/27/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>I have a question about mailbox posts.  Does anyone know if there is a
>requirement for your mailbox to "break away" if a car hits it?

From kentsu at corvairkid.com  Sat Jun 27 23:46:56 2009
From: kentsu at corvairkid.com (Kent Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 22:46:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <OFBED9ED52.3E12240B-ON852575E0.0060F1A4-852575E0.00628B8C@mail.megageek.com>
References: <abb8688a0906251033s75618253hfb797ff9c1cc410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFBED9ED52.3E12240B-ON852575E0.0060F1A4-852575E0.00628B8C@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1c7b01c9f7b3$d8e34730$8aa9d590$@com>

Be careful with your decision about a crowned floor--this will make any type
of lift except one sunk into the pad pretty much not doable. While a little
bit of angle at the floor doesn't seem like much, it's a lot when a heavy
vehicle is 6 feet in the air.

--Kent
-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:40 AM
To: John Innis
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage

What I am doing is paving a pad that is 1 foot smaller in each dimension 
of the building.  That way, any snow or water on the vehicles will run to 
the sides and drop into the ground (the pavement is crowned.)

There is also a 65' X 12' driveway to the new building in that paving 
cost.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> 
06/25/2009 13:19

To
eric at megageek.com
cc
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage






So does this work when you are putting the building up on a paved pad?
 I have seen these put up before where they basically build the
building, then poured the floor, but not one built on an existing pad.
 Do they cut the pad to put in the posts, or do you have to put
anchors in the pad where the frame/posts are going to go?

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I'm also paving the area first.
>
> The paving is just shy of $6K and the building I got for just shy of 
$10.
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
You are subscribed as kentsu at corvairkid.com

Shop-talk mailing list

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From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Jun 28 02:08:39 2009
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:08:39 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <0KLX00ACOM1TWOH0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0KLX00ACOM1TWOH0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4A472507.1040309@landform.co.uk>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> Here is some interesting (well, not THAT interesting) reading for you:
> (I live in NY.  Haven't found the NJ equivalent yet.)
>
> https://www.nysdot.gov/divisions/engineering/design/dqab/hdm/chapter-10/roadside-safety/mailboxes 
>
>
> http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/1000/1700/1702/moh.pdf
>
Got to preface this by saying that I live in a country where the postman 
delivers mail to the door and it rarely snows enough to need serious 
ploughing so take this with a pinch of salt. Anyway, it seems that 
figures 12 and 13 of the moh.pdf address the problem with a cantilever 
design. It should be possible to include a detented pivot in Figure 12 
to take smallish knocks short of total contact. It would be possible to 
mount the upright in a solidly fixed socket in the ground allowing the 
post to be lifted out and replaced after the (inevitable) collision. The 
KeeKlamp type of construction in Figure 12 allows for modular repairs.

Nick Brearley

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun 28 05:09:22 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:09:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <1c7b01c9f7b3$d8e34730$8aa9d590$@com>
Message-ID: <OF3592C3AA.324CEDCC-ON852575E3.003D1514-852575E3.003EBE99@mail.megageek.com>

I already have the lift in my main garage.

This one is just going to be for storage.  (I'm only running electric for 
lights and battery chargers, etc.)

But that is great advice for anyone putting a floor in the main shop.


Hum, now you got me thinking about a wheeled, 4 post lift to put trailers 
on in the garage.

HUMMM....


Anyone have a link for a good site for them?

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"Kent Sullivan" <kentsu at corvairkid.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/28/2009 01:33

To
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage






Be careful with your decision about a crowned floor--this will make any 
type
of lift except one sunk into the pad pretty much not doable. While a 
little
bit of angle at the floor doesn't seem like much, it's a lot when a heavy
vehicle is 6 feet in the air.

--Kent
-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:40 AM
To: John Innis
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage

What I am doing is paving a pad that is 1 foot smaller in each dimension 
of the building.  That way, any snow or water on the vehicles will run to 
the sides and drop into the ground (the pavement is crowned.)

There is also a 65' X 12' driveway to the new building in that paving 
cost.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



John Innis <jdinnis at gmail.com> 
06/25/2009 13:19

To
eric at megageek.com
cc
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] New Garage






So does this work when you are putting the building up on a paved pad?
 I have seen these put up before where they basically build the
building, then poured the floor, but not one built on an existing pad.
 Do they cut the pad to put in the posts, or do you have to put
anchors in the pad where the frame/posts are going to go?

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I'm also paving the area first.
>
> The paving is just shy of $6K and the building I got for just shy of 
$10.
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
You are subscribed as kentsu at corvairkid.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun 28 05:18:44 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:18:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <4A472507.1040309@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com>

I find it amazing that a document like the other one even exists.  Talk 
about people with jobs that they need to find work!  Then, the document is 
in metric!  DOH!

I would think that the cantilever design could be made that when something 
hits it, it spins away from the road.  (only if the base isn't hit.)

The other document talks about the 4X4 post being dangerous as it breaks 
and can come into a windshield, then they go and recommend a 4X4 post!

Mine is set up, we'll see how the mailman likes it tomorrow.  I should 
have pictures up by then as well.

Thanks for all the help.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



nick brearley <nick at landform.co.uk> 
06/28/2009 03:59

To
Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>
cc
eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes






Steven Trovato wrote:
> Here is some interesting (well, not THAT interesting) reading for you:
> (I live in NY.  Haven't found the NJ equivalent yet.)
>
> 
https://www.nysdot.gov/divisions/engineering/design/dqab/hdm/chapter-10/roadside-safety/mailboxes 

>
>
> http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/1000/1700/1702/moh.pdf
>
Got to preface this by saying that I live in a country where the postman 
delivers mail to the door and it rarely snows enough to need serious 
ploughing so take this with a pinch of salt. Anyway, it seems that 
figures 12 and 13 of the moh.pdf address the problem with a cantilever 
design. It should be possible to include a detented pivot in Figure 12 
to take smallish knocks short of total contact. It would be possible to 
mount the upright in a solidly fixed socket in the ground allowing the 
post to be lifted out and replaced after the (inevitable) collision. The 
KeeKlamp type of construction in Figure 12 allows for modular repairs.

Nick Brearley

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jun 28 08:03:16 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:03:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
In-Reply-To: <EDB63B3210CC4B1481BBC72612F52DD6@B50SS>
References: <EDB63B3210CC4B1481BBC72612F52DD6@B50SS>
Message-ID: <4A477824.7050701@xxiii.com>

old dirtbeard wrote:
> I have a ~20K gallon swimming pool here in the Los Angeles area and would like
> to build a solar pool heater.
> ....
> .... I was wondering if I could fabricate a
> "solar collector" out of PVC pipe painted black or use ABS pipe either in a
> parallel or "serpentine" array with a small, efficient, separate pump (I have
> two inlets to the pool and could just create one "loop" for the solar heater).

PVC pipe starts to melt or "go plastic" around 190 or 200 dF, which 
could be a problem.  It's also not UV resistant and will get very 
brittle and fall apart in direct sunlight.  The gray PVC sold for 
electrical conduit is supposedly UV resistant.  CPVC (the yellowish 
stuff) is normally used for hot water home plumbing.  Not sure of its UV 
suceptibility.  Paint might block enough of the UV to help that problem, 
but it would raise the operating temp.

I don't know much about the ABS stuff, but that might be your best bet.

The superior heat conductivity of copper, and wider operating temp range 
  would make it a better choice;  but that stuff is still real expensive.

-Wayne

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jun 28 08:23:35 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
Message-ID: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I don't have a pool, but I am wondering:  Isn't a pool already getting good solar heating from the sun simply shining on it?  Even if a pool is light-colored, it probably absorbs about 50% if the light hitting it.  So adding a separate collector with something like 15% of the pool's area wouldn't make a huge difference int he water temperature.

I would think that a dark-colored pool cover would be far more effective, since it would absorb a lot more sunlight, and prevent evaporative cooling (and water loss).

Doug


--- On Sat, 6/27/09, old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net> wrote:

> From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 7:17 PM
> Hi guys,
> 
> This is off-topic and I apologize, but I trust the wisdom
> of this group.
> 
> I have a ~20K gallon swimming pool here in the Los Angeles
> area and would like
> to build a solar pool heater.

From shochschild at att.net  Sun Jun 28 08:55:41 2009
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:55:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A47846D.10509@att.net>

Here is Austin TX, I have been thinking qabout how to cool my pool for 
about 14 years.

15k gallons, under trees.  I tried routing the return to a fountain, but 
while it cooled the area around the pool, it also made it far more 
humid, and didn't seem to lower the temp of the pool itself at all.

I just wonder if anyone has ever come up with a way other than 
refrigeration...

Shop content => It is 98 in my garage / shop, so every few minutes I run 
over and jump in, but it isn't as refreshing as it would be 10 or 15 
degrees cooler...

From 57healey at gmail.com  Sun Jun 28 09:29:40 2009
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:29:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <4A47846D.10509@att.net>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4A47846D.10509@att.net>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0906280829m74a0de09idf860a94305b5b87@mail.gmail.com>

You could try to build some type of geothermal heat pump using
vertical drops, but I would think the rocks around Austin would make
that a pretty expensive endevor.
Patton (who would like to cool his hot TX house this way)

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 9:55 AM, shochschild at att.net<shochschild at att.net>
wrote:
> Here is Austin TX, I have been thinking qabout how to cool my pool for
about
> 14 years.
>
> 15k gallons, under trees.  I tried routing the return to a fountain, but
> while it cooled the area around the pool, it also made it far more humid,
> and didn't seem to lower the temp of the pool itself at all.
>
> I just wonder if anyone has ever come up with a way other than
> refrigeration...
>
> Shop content => It is 98 in my garage / shop, so every few minutes I run
> over and jump in, but it isn't as refreshing as it would be 10 or 15
degrees
> cooler...
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as 57healey at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."
1977 Newport '28

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Jun 28 09:57:34 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:57:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f0906280829m74a0de09idf860a94305b5b87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4A47846D.10509@att.net>
	<743b1e2f0906280829m74a0de09idf860a94305b5b87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360906280857l3974eb8akb0235d92f1f83948@mail.gmail.com>

*I am another Texas pool owner who tries everything I can in the way
of "cool pool" ideas. . . My above-ground pool is small enough that a white
reflective cover can be fitted during the hottest part of the day and this
helps a bit.  I also run a portable fan all night that that wafts the
somewhat cooler air across the surface to hopefully absorb some of the heat
that's accrued during the day.  I've even bought home a big sack of crushed
ice and thrown it in the pool, still in the sack, just for the cool aura
that surrounds it for the 30 - 40 minutes 'til it melts. I'm still looking
for any other practical ideas to keep the pool from feeling like a "hot
tub".*
*Tony    *

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Jun 28 10:21:00 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
Message-ID: <200906281621.n5SGL0ZA008467@moose.dimebank.com>

> But that is great advice for anyone putting a floor in the main shop.

Yes - but there's an alternative to crowning, which is just a small 
slope - 1/8" per foot or so is enough for drainage but won't really
bother the lift.

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Jun 28 14:28:00 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:28:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning a sealed gas tank
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797031AE965@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <2400a5d40906191950s766647aew5bc37dd49e62810a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090620052217228.ZGQ4077@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797031AE965@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <4A47D250.8020203@comcast.net>

re: "It's really hard to blame POR-15 for a 16 year old product..."


I've given this lots of thought and have to respectfully disagree with this 
statement.  Here's my reasoning:

1) I can't give an exact date, but I know ethanol has been added to gasoline--we 
used to call it "gasahol"--in California for at least 19 years.  There was a 
Beacon--now Arco--gas station around the corner from my apartment whose pumps 
were marked "contains ethanol."  It was cheaper than other brands, and I'd use 
it in my beater Subaru but wouldn't put it in my Healey

2) Any product for use with with organic or caustic liquids should be tested 
against all common organic liquids, and ethanol is a common organic liquid (you 
can buy it at any liquor store)

3) The company selling the product should be expected to test its products 
against said compounds as part of a QA process.  There are standardized  tests 
against which this type of product should be measured (treat the surface, 
immerse the sample at several temperatures for a specified period, etc.)


IMO, the POR-15 company should be held accountable for the failure of its 
product under these circumstances.

Again, I can't remember the exact date, but I used a Bill Hirsh tank sealant in 
the Healey at least 16 years ago and have had no problems with all the crap 
that's been put in California gas (ethanol, MTBE and who-knows-what else).

FWIW, I have no financial or other interest in either POR-15 or Bill Hirsch 
products.


bs




Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:
> Randall wrote:
>>> I'll point out that if there's anyone selling a gas tank sealer
>>> that's vulnerable to ethanol in 2009, they're a criminal fraud.
>> Seems like a tough argument to me; unless they specifically said
>> it was compatible with ethanol.  It's not really POR-15's fault
>> if you choose to > run your car on paint remover.
> 
> Besides, the original post said:
> 
>     In 1992 I sealed my MGA fuel tank with a POR-15 product.
> 
> It's really hard to blame POR-15 for a 16 year old product...
> 
> Tim Mullen

*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 28 15:28:33 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:28:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4A472507.1040309@landform.co.uk>
	<OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906281428yac0a924u3d8c75762c1fbf22@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 7:18 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I find it amazing that a document like the other one even exists. B Talk
> about people with jobs that they need to find work! B Then, the document is
> in metric! B DOH!
>
Of course it's metric.  US consumers are the only non-metric people in
the world.
The US government is metric, and has been for years and years.

I think you fail to understand the amount of engineering that goes
into highway construction.  Every aspect of it is studied, and things
interact with each other in ways you might no expect.


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun 28 15:35:06 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:35:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <200906281621.n5SGL0ZA008467@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <OF9E748E9C.BDA63687-ON852575E3.007673CB-852575E3.00780806@mail.megageek.com>

What about one of those "car port" metal roof buildings over the pool. 
(the kind that are used for cars.  They are just a roof, no sides or 
fronts or backs.)

That should keep the sun from heating it up alot.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun 28 15:37:31 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:37:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906281428yac0a924u3d8c75762c1fbf22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF086452A5.B104D50F-ON852575E3.0076B1D7-852575E3.007840C1@mail.megageek.com>

David writes...

>Every aspect of it is studied, and things interact with each other in 
ways you might no expect.

I can only image what kinds of things are studied.  Anyone know of a 
really interesting study they have done?


Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 28 16:00:14 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:00:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
In-Reply-To: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906281500s1de1b31cmedc41514a34f092e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Doug Braun<doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> I don't have a pool, but I am wondering: B Isn't a pool already getting good
solar heating from the sun simply shining on it? B Even if a pool is
light-colored, it probably absorbs about 50% if the light hitting it. B So
adding a separate collector with something like 15% of the pool's area
wouldn't make a huge difference int he water temperature.
>

Pools absorb most (75% +/- ) the heat available in sunglight.  The
advantage of a solar heater is that it increases the area available
for isolation, and they're usually aranged to get more sunlight.  They
point south, and are tilted for effective solar collection.  Most
pools don't get sunlight all day, but people's solar heaters do.


\
> I would think that a dark-colored pool cover would be far more effective,
since it would absorb a lot more sunlight, and prevent evaporative cooling
(and water loss).
>

Dark covers are actually less efficient than transparent ones, but
more so than light colored ones.  Most heat loss from pools is by
evaporatiion, and any cover (even just a tarp) cuts that down a lot.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 28 16:14:15 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:14:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <4A47846D.10509@att.net>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4A47846D.10509@att.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906281514v62510de0xd82f65ddf0313f23@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:55 AM,
shochschild at att.net<shochschild at att.net> wrote:
> Here is Austin TX, I have been thinking qabout how to cool my pool for
about
> 14 years.
>
> 15k gallons, under trees. B I tried routing the return to a fountain, but
> while it cooled the area around the pool, it also made it far more humid,
> and didn't seem to lower the temp of the pool itself at all.
>
> I just wonder if anyone has ever come up with a way other than
> refrigeration...

Solar pool heater, run when the sun isn't shining.  Radiative cooling
works as well as radiative heating.  (Better, some times.  The night
sky is a lot colder than the day time sky is warm.)

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sun Jun 28 16:31:41 2009
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:31:41 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <OF086452A5.B104D50F-ON852575E3.0076B1D7-852575E3.007840C1@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF086452A5.B104D50F-ON852575E3.0076B1D7-852575E3.007840C1@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A47EF4D.7090404@landform.co.uk>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I can only image what kinds of things are studied.  Anyone know of a 
> really interesting study they have done?
>
>   
How about this one?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmtlgr/557/557ap49.htm

Nick Brearley
In favour of just about any study that keeps solid vehicles and slow 
moving bodies apart.

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Jun 28 16:27:08 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:27:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes (link to pics)
In-Reply-To: <4A47EF4D.7090404@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OFD430D1D7.E73A8CA5-ON852575E3.007B2208-852575E3.007CCBA4@mail.megageek.com>

Here is a link to a picture of the mailbox.  (I own three properties in a 
row, so I put all the mailboxes on the same post.)

<http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/a7ffeab012bbfb5b85256eb1007ca7f6/22b5c06ba09ffa82852575e3007afba3?OpenDocument>

To the left of the mailboxes, you can see the two concrete pads that I'll 
mount the Buoys to.

BTW, how long should you wait to drill holes in new concrete and use 
spreading anchors in it?

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jun 28 18:26:59 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:26:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
In-Reply-To: <EDB63B3210CC4B1481BBC72612F52DD6@B50SS>
Message-ID: <20090629002657688.ODPJ24524@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com>

> It seems to me that it should work. If I am missing something here, PLEASE
> let me know. Thanks in advance guys.

Doug, I live just a few miles away from you, and have a similar sized
in-ground pool.  My experience has been that just a simple "bubble wrap"
type insulated cover on the pool will quickly bring the water temperature up
warmer than I care for; even in cooler (but sunny) weather.  It also blocks
a great deal of the evaporation that requires make-up water, and occasional
water discard just to keep the hardness down.

Unfortunately my pool shape & location make an automatic cover impractical;
but if you can manage one, IMO it's by far the best route to solar heating.
Should help reduce chemical consumption, too (although I did have to keep
the chlorine level somewhat higher to hold down on algae growth in the
bathwater).

Randall

From shochschild at att.net  Sun Jun 28 18:50:11 2009
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:50:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906281514v62510de0xd82f65ddf0313f23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	
	<4A47846D.10509@att.net>
	<2400a5d40906281514v62510de0xd82f65ddf0313f23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A480FC3.9010004@att.net>

Wow, so if I piped a radiator into the system and pumped through it at 
night, it would cool?  Great, this is just the kind of thing I would 
like to try. 

Givens:  Say it is 100 during the day, and drops to 80 at night.  My 
pool is about 92 right now and getting warmer daily.  If I could get it 
down to 85 it would be well worth it.

I have at least two car radiators in the junk pile, rather, I meant to 
say, in inventory.
How much radiator surface?  Would 4 be twice as effective as 2?  Should 
I spray them black?
Do I need to run a fan through them; in other words how important is air 
flow to the heat transfer?

If I pipe them into the return from the filter system, then I wouldn't 
have to even worry about a pump -- is there a cheap and easy 
thermostatic control to switch a valve whenever ambient < pool temp?

I envision a simple array of car radiators on a frame with radiator 
tubing connecting them in parallel, set up as a separate loop back under 
the trees where the filter, pump, and chlorinator are.

If this works, it will be a very popular Instructable.  Everyone wants 
their pool cooler around here...

Thanks!

P.S. For the OP, yes, a simple pool cover will make your pool warm enuff 
for anyone.  They are a pain unless you get an automatic as recommended, 
or even just a spool that you turn the crank on manually. 



> Solar pool heater, run when the sun isn't shining.  Radiative cooling
> works as well as radiative heating.  (Better, some times.  The night
> sky is a lot colder than the day time sky is warm.)

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 28 19:47:39 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:47:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <4A480FC3.9010004@att.net>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4A47846D.10509@att.net>
	<2400a5d40906281514v62510de0xd82f65ddf0313f23@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A480FC3.9010004@att.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W25F1339E6BBC00E6F4B023E1300@phx.gbl>

I'm looking to move the temp the other way, but in lots of ways the devices
are going to be similar.  Oh and in this area the solar cover does not always
get and keep the pool warm enough.



Most of the heaters I've seen on the web fit  in the pump return, so I would
think your cooler would fit there also.



I would think the more radiator surface you have the more it would cool.  I
might be wrong, but I would not think you would want to paint them black as
you do not want to pickup heat from the sun.  I'll let someone else address
the need for a fan.



I have found manual diverter valves for about $40.00.  If there is a better
way I'm interested.  If the radiators are always in the shade, maybe you can
run through them all the time or turn the pump off during day.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

'63 TR3B TCF587L

That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

See it moves!




> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:50:11 -0500
> From: shochschild at att.net
> To: dmscheidt at gmail.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
>
> Wow, so if I piped a radiator into the system and pumped through it at
> night, it would cool? Great, this is just the kind of thing I would
> like to try.
>
> Givens: Say it is 100 during the day, and drops to 80 at night. My
> pool is about 92 right now and getting warmer daily. If I could get it
> down to 85 it would be well worth it.
>
> I have at least two car radiators in the junk pile, rather, I meant to
> say, in inventory.
> How much radiator surface? Would 4 be twice as effective as 2? Should
> I spray them black?
> Do I need to run a fan through them; in other words how important is air
> flow to the heat transfer?
>
> If I pipe them into the return from the filter system, then I wouldn't
> have to even worry about a pump -- is there a cheap and easy
> thermostatic control to switch a valve whenever ambient < pool temp?
>
> I envision a simple array of car radiators on a frame with radiator
> tubing connecting them in parallel, set up as a separate loop back under
> the trees where the filter, pump, and chlorinator are.
>
> If this works, it will be a very popular Instructable. Everyone wants
> their pool cooler around here...
>
> Thanks!
>
> P.S. For the OP, yes, a simple pool cover will make your pool warm enuff
> for anyone. They are a pain unless you get an automatic as recommended,
> or even just a spool that you turn the crank on manually.
>
>
>
> > Solar pool heater, run when the sun isn't shining. Radiative cooling
> > works as well as radiative heating. (Better, some times. The night
> > sky is a lot colder than the day time sky is warm.)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 28 21:07:54 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:07:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pool cooler
In-Reply-To: <4A480FC3.9010004@att.net>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4A47846D.10509@att.net>
	<2400a5d40906281514v62510de0xd82f65ddf0313f23@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A480FC3.9010004@att.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906282007l7e767a7araa63c99eba42b596@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 8:50 PM, shochschild at att.net<shochschild at att.net>
wrote:
> Wow, so if I piped a radiator into the system and pumped through it at
> night, it would cool? B Great, this is just the kind of thing I would like
to
> try.
> Givens: B Say it is 100 during the day, and drops to 80 at night. B My pool
is
> about 92 right now and getting warmer daily. B If I could get it down to 85
> it would be well worth it.
>
> I have at least two car radiators in the junk pile, rather, I meant to say,
> in inventory.
> How much radiator surface? B Would 4 be twice as effective as 2? B Should I
> spray them black?
> Do I need to run a fan through them; in other words how important is air
> flow to the heat transfer?
>


I didn't mean car radiators.  I meant exactly the same sort of system
that is being talked about in the heater thread.  You'd need a couple
hundred square feet, exposed to the sky, not just to air.  The idea is
that the panels radiate heat into near space, not conduct it into the
air (though you'll do that too, the amount of heat shed that way will
be very low.)  You just run the pump at night, not during the day
(though, you can use it as a heater, and heat the pool when it's not
hot.  How cold are you "winters"?).  This is actually a pretty
standard thing to do with a solar pool heater; there are any number of
thermostatic controllers that do this as a built in feature.  (You set
a desired temperature.  If the panel is warmer than this, and the pool
cooler, the valve opens and the pump comes on, heating the pool.  If
the panel is cooler than this, and pool warmer, the valve opens and
the pump comes on, cooling the pool.)  I bet you there's someone local
who installs the things.  (Though, there's nothing hard about
installing them.  It's just plumbing, and a bit of wiring.)

Nighttime radiative cooling is something that very few people get.
It's been used for thousands of years.  (Indians and Romans used it to
make ice in places like India and North Africa.  During the summer.)
The clear night sky is really cold.




--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Jun 28 23:58:22 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:58:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I need a bolt recommendation...

The tow dolly I'm rebuilding has a single bolt that carries the load from 
the tongue to the tilting dolly platform.  This bolt gets all the weight 
of the car.  It goes through an inverted U section on the tilting 
platform, with the boxed tongue in the middle.  It doesn't clamp tight, 
the inverted U section / tonque pivot around the bolt (it was kept in 
place with a locknut).

The bolt that came out of it was a 5/8-11 grade 5 bolt.  Even if I wanted 
to, I can't reuse it, because the reason I'm rebuilding this thing is 
because the inverted U on the frame frame the tongue bolts to cracked, and 
now its thicker after reinforcement.  In addition, the bolt's shoulder 
didn't go all the way to the edge of the inverted U, so weight was being 
carried on one side by the threaded portion of the bolt, not the shank. 
There's wear on both sides, where the U/tongue loaded the bolt.

First question... Stick with grade 5 or use grade 8?  The mount is in 
double sheer, but there's no clamping happening here, its a strict bending 
load with either end of the bolt supported.  Essentially, the bolt is 
being used as a 5/8" hitch pin.

Second... I assume I want a shoulder that goes all the way through, so 
that load isn't being applied to the threaded area, right?

Third... Should I just use a hitch pin?  Are there ratings on hitch pins 
that might tell me what'll be safe for sure?  Only thing with a hitch pin 
is that I'd need to make darn sure the cotter pin or whatever couldn't 
come out... If this thing fails, the tongue comes outta the dolly and 
havoc ensues.

Outside to outside of the new reinforced U is 3.75".  McMaster doesn't 
quote the shoulder length exactly on the grade 5 & grade 8 hex bolts, they 
quote it to 1.5" to 2"... That makes a difference if I'm trying to 
minimize the extra shoulder sticking out past the load area.

Appreciate any thoughts.  I'll make the call on safety, but I'd love to 
get some opinions.  At this point I'm leaning toward just using a hitch 
pin and wiring closed the cotter pin, since this seems to be the exact 
design criteria for them, though normally it'd be holding on tractor 
implements that aren't going 75mph on the highway...

Mark

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Jun 29 00:22:24 2009
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:22:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4A485DA0.50603@bradakis.com>

Have you tried the hardware section at
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com - they may have
an AN bolt ( I guess AN10 would be 5/8ths )?  With
a proper AN spec bolt and AN washers, you can get
the grip length to within  half a curly red one of being
spot on.

mjb.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Jun 29 00:29:11 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:29:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
In-Reply-To: <4A485DA0.50603@bradakis.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4A485DA0.50603@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290227110.17394@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

This is interesting...

http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners/index.asp

Who knows if this guy is a real authority, but its on the internet with 
nice pictures so it must be true... :-)

Looks like there's no reason to choose a grade 5 over a grade 8 bolt.

The only thing the article doesn't address directly is which bolt will 
stand up better to this "non-torqued sheer" loading situation.

And, of course, that's also what's making me think a hitch pin is the 
smarter idea.

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jun 29 01:02:17 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:02:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20090629070217895.UIJP20969@cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com>

> Are there ratings on hitch pins
> that might tell me what'll be safe for sure? 

I didn't find anything in a brief check; but MMC shows hardness as only B80,
which
http://www.engineersedge.com/hardness_conversion.htm
says is roughly 73 kpsi steel.  That's significantly weaker than the Grade 5
bolt (120 kpsi) you had before (although the threads did take up some of
that).

I don't have a link, but I've read somewhere that shear strength is about
60% of tensile strength for carbon steel fasteners.  Proof (safe) load for a
5/8 Grade 5 in tension is just under 20k lbs, so shear would presumably be
about 12k.  Maybe double that, because your joint is in double shear?  That
might make a pin good for about 73/120 * 12k * 2 ~= 14k lbs.  Big question
then is how much do you multiply the weight of the car plus dolly for impact
loading (hitting bumps, car bouncing up and down); and then for safety
factor.  I dunno, but fixing things by making them weaker just doesn't seem
right to me.

One thought might be to use a stud, as they seem to have the unthreaded
length better specified:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#90281a816/=2iu8uc

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jun 29 07:42:57 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:42:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <0KM0004KX662X3S0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Sometimes you can get more information from McMaster if you contact 
them and tell them exactly what you need.

At 01:58 AM 6/29/2009, Mark Andy wrote:
>McMaster doesn't quote the shoulder length exactly on the grade 5 & 
>grade 8 hex bolts, they quote it to 1.5" to 2"... That makes a 
>difference if I'm trying to minimize the extra shoulder sticking out 
>past the load area.

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 07:57:35 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:57:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0906290657k3f63da68s582ef3a8a87d098b@mail.gmail.com>

Your load will not be "double shear" since in actuality, you are
applying half the load to two places on the bolt.  I'd focus more on
the hardness of the bolt in this application, rather than the shear
strength.  5/8 is a pretty strong grade 5, but if it is not case
hardened it will wear at the point where the two peices move.
Eventually this wear will compromise the bolt no matter what the
strength is.  You could avoid this by clamping the assembly tight and
giving up the tilt capability.  You definetly do not want the load to
ride on the threads, that would concentrate the wear on a vary small
area of the metal and accelerate the failure mode.  I'm not sure what
the hardness of a hitch pin would be, but if you go that route, I
stringly suggest you use a small bolt or other captive locking pin.
THere may be more side load on this than you would guess.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Mark Andy<mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I need a bolt recommendation...
>
> The tow dolly I'm rebuilding has a single bolt that carries the load from
> the tongue to the tilting dolly platform.  This bolt gets all the weight of
> the car.  It goes through an inverted U section on the tilting platform,
> with the boxed tongue in the middle.  It doesn't clamp tight, the inverted
U
> section / tonque pivot around the bolt (it was kept in place with a
> locknut).
>
> The bolt that came out of it was a 5/8-11 grade 5 bolt.  Even if I wanted
> to, I can't reuse it, because the reason I'm rebuilding this thing is
> because the inverted U on the frame frame the tongue bolts to cracked, and
> now its thicker after reinforcement.  In addition, the bolt's shoulder
> didn't go all the way to the edge of the inverted U, so weight was being
> carried on one side by the threaded portion of the bolt, not the shank.
> There's wear on both sides, where the U/tongue loaded the bolt.
>
> First question... Stick with grade 5 or use grade 8?  The mount is in
double
> sheer, but there's no clamping happening here, its a strict bending load
> with either end of the bolt supported.  Essentially, the bolt is being used
> as a 5/8" hitch pin.
>
> Second... I assume I want a shoulder that goes all the way through, so that
> load isn't being applied to the threaded area, right?
>
> Third... Should I just use a hitch pin?  Are there ratings on hitch pins
> that might tell me what'll be safe for sure?  Only thing with a hitch pin
is
> that I'd need to make darn sure the cotter pin or whatever couldn't come
> out... If this thing fails, the tongue comes outta the dolly and havoc
> ensues.
>
> Outside to outside of the new reinforced U is 3.75".  McMaster doesn't
quote
> the shoulder length exactly on the grade 5 & grade 8 hex bolts, they quote
> it to 1.5" to 2"... That makes a difference if I'm trying to minimize the
> extra shoulder sticking out past the load area.
>
> Appreciate any thoughts.  I'll make the call on safety, but I'd love to get
> some opinions.  At this point I'm leaning toward just using a hitch pin and
> wiring closed the cotter pin, since this seems to be the exact design
> criteria for them, though normally it'd be holding on tractor implements
> that aren't going 75mph on the highway...
>
> Mark



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Jun 29 09:25:20 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:25:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

I remember seeing a clever mailbox "post".  The owner had gotten tired of
people knocking his box off, so he "hardened it".

He sunk a post into the ground, about 8 feet away from where the box would be
located.  Then he made a mount that slipped over the post and had an arm that
extended the 8 feet to the curb.  He had it indexed so that as the post
turned, it lifted a bit, with the low spot pointing to the street.  If you
nailed the post (with a baseball bat, a car, or what ever), it just pivoted
out of the way.  If it didn't return to position by itself, you could give it
a little push and it would swing back.

It's just an idea...

Tim Mullen

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Jun 29 09:50:44 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:50:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <0KM000IB3C3F69M0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

When it comes to intentional acts, vandalism, the problem is that 
whatever clever idea you come up with can be taken as a challenge to 
the delinquent, now that you've made him look bad in front of his 
fellow delinquents.  Then he may feel obligated to come back for a 
more aggressive second attempt.  The only thing that I think has made 
a dent in this sort of behavior is the ubiquitousness of video 
surveillance.  You never know when you'll be caught by a camera.  And 
then you have to explain to mom what you were really doing out in her 
car Saturday night.


At 11:25 AM 6/29/2009, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:
>I remember seeing a clever mailbox "post".  The owner had gotten tired of
>people knocking his box off, so he "hardened it".

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jun 29 10:15:45 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:15:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0906290657k3f63da68s582ef3a8a87d098b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090629161544747.UCMG26680@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com>

> Your load will not be "double shear" since in actuality, you are
> applying half the load to two places on the bolt.  

Perhaps I'm confused, but I thought that was exactly the definition of
"double shear".  Eg,
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Bolted_Joint.html

Randall

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Jun 29 11:12:52 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:12:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40906281500s1de1b31cmedc41514a34f092e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46F213259B6A448ABA91101BCAE135A5@behavioral.com>

Why don't the "pool heater" and the "pool cooler" people get together and 
just swap water? 

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 29 11:30:14 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:30:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
In-Reply-To: <46F213259B6A448ABA91101BCAE135A5@behavioral.com>
References: <512493.30075.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40906281500s1de1b31cmedc41514a34f092e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<46F213259B6A448ABA91101BCAE135A5@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W5F3F9CCDAAC4E440D537DE1300@phx.gbl>

I had thought of that, but I'm not sure if my pump can move water that far.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA


'63 TR3B TCF587L


That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!


See it moves!




> From: arvidj at visi.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:12:52 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] solar pool heater
>
> Why don't the "pool heater" and the "pool cooler" people get together and
> just swap water?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mg_garage at comcast.net  Mon Jun 29 17:17:03 2009
From: mg_garage at comcast.net (gordies garage)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:17:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<0KM000IB3C3F69M0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <CCB2BAAC6BBA4E52AE1A67C0F8F4CAEC@stargate>

That may be, but when my mailbox was taken off by a baseball bat, I put a 
4x6 into a couple of feet of concrete and lag bolted two mailboxes on top of 
it.  Yes, two, the small one inside of the larger one and a couple of inches 
of concrete between the two.  They tried the 'new' mailbox some time later 
and I heard the WHACK, then several expletives.  That was nearly 20 years 
ago and no one has even tried since.

Gordie



> When it comes to intentional acts, vandalism, the problem is that whatever 
> clever idea you come up with can be taken as a challenge to the 
> delinquent, now that you've made him look bad in front of his fellow 
> delinquents.  Then he may feel obligated to come back for a more 
> aggressive second attempt.  The only thing that I think has made a dent in 
> this sort of behavior is the ubiquitousness of video surveillance.  You 
> never know when you'll be caught by a camera.  And then you have to 
> explain to mom what you were really doing out in her car Saturday night.
>
>
> At 11:25 AM 6/29/2009, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:
>>I remember seeing a clever mailbox "post".  The owner had gotten tired of
>>people knocking his box off, so he "hardened it".
> _______________________________________________

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jun 29 17:23:45 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:23:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dewalt 18 V Batteries
Message-ID: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I know someone here on this list has this answer.

I have a ton of dewalt 18v tools.  I have no desire to "upgrade" to 
lit-ion.

I have a bunch of batteries that are dead and will not charge.

I'm looking for a place that will either sell me the battery cells so I 
can replace them myself, or a place that I can send my batteries to and 
get refurbished ones.

As for the trick of buying more dewalt tools to get more batteries, I've 
been doing that and I have just about one of everything now (and a few 
duplicates.)

Thanks for the help!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Mon Jun 29 17:39:28 2009
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:39:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <CCB2BAAC6BBA4E52AE1A67C0F8F4CAEC@stargate>
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><0KM000IB3C3F69M0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<CCB2BAAC6BBA4E52AE1A67C0F8F4CAEC@stargate>
Message-ID: <A6B26AB07AA748CC89799D6B01FB8CB7@DesktopPC>

OK, I wasn't going to bring up my solution.....but now I will<grin>
The neighbor's teenage son (I'm nearly 99% sure) decided to take
a sideswipe to our mailbox some years ago.  It was a typical
rural metal box on a 4x4 post.  It was about this time that Lowes
had first offered those green/tan plastic boxes designed to slip over
a 4x4 post.

We purchased one of the plastic boxes, 4 bags of Quik-Crete and a
1/4 inch thick steel 4 x 4 tubing, about 7 feet long.  3 plus bags of
concrete went into the deep hole and the rest of the concrete filled 
up
the 4 x 4 square tubing.  We then slid the plastic box and column over 
the
top of the tubing and thru-bolted to the steel.

I don't know if the neighbor kid saw what we did or not, but the
effect has been the same..........no more knocking over the mailbox.
Now, if we can just keep the drivers from running off the road and
thru our pasture fencing at the first hint of snow!


Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gordies garage" <mg_garage at comcast.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes


> That may be, but when my mailbox was taken off by a baseball bat, I 
> put a
> 4x6 into a couple of feet of concrete and lag bolted two mailboxes 
> on top of
> it.  Yes, two, the small one inside of the larger one and a couple 
> of inches
> of concrete between the two.  They tried the 'new' mailbox some time 
> later
> and I heard the WHACK, then several expletives.  That was nearly 20 
> years
> ago and no one has even tried since.
>
> Gordie
>
>
>
>> When it comes to intentional acts, vandalism, the problem is that 
>> whatever
>> clever idea you come up with can be taken as a challenge to the
>> delinquent, now that you've made him look bad in front of his 
>> fellow
>> delinquents.  Then he may feel obligated to come back for a more
>> aggressive second attempt.  The only thing that I think has made a 
>> dent in
>> this sort of behavior is the ubiquitousness of video surveillance. 
>> You
>> never know when you'll be caught by a camera.  And then you have to
>> explain to mom what you were really doing out in her car Saturday 
>> night.
>>
>>
>> At 11:25 AM 6/29/2009, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote:
>>>I remember seeing a clever mailbox "post".  The owner had gotten 
>>>tired of
>>>people knocking his box off, so he "hardened it".
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as gsteve at hammatt.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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06/29/09 05:54:00

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Jun 29 17:59:23 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:59:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dewalt 18 V Batteries
In-Reply-To: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I have a bunch of batteries that are dead and will not charge.
> I'm looking for a place that will either sell me the battery cells so I 
> can replace them myself, or a place that I can send my batteries to and 
> get refurbished ones.

There are Batteries Plus franchise stores in much of the country.   They 
rebuilt two DeWalt 12V packs for me for about $38/ea.  I mostly used 
them because they're local and I didn't have to screw with shipping 
them.  I'm not sure yet if the quality is really like-new.
http://www.batteriesplus.com/

And this Primecell place I'll probably use next time.  They can upgrade 
your current packs, and claim theirs are built to better-than-factory 
quality.
http://www.primecell.com/

-Wayne

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Mon Jun 29 18:10:13 2009
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:10:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dewalt 18 V Batteries
In-Reply-To: <4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090629200856.02ae4b68@pop.nycap.rr.com>

I'll add a + for Primecell. I sent them an 18v battery. It came back 
better and seems to be holding up well.

Skip


>And this Primecell place I'll probably use next time.  They can 
>upgrade your current packs, and claim theirs are built to 
>better-than-factory quality.
>http://www.primecell.com/
>
>-Wayne

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Jun 29 18:18:44 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:18:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
In-Reply-To: <4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>

    Since we've been on the topic of moving water around lately, and I 
cannot figure this problem out, I have to ask this stupid question.  How 
can I make water flow downhill?

    A couple weeks ago, I bought a rain-barrel 'kit' ( not much more than a 
plastic barrel, really ).  I drilled a hole near the bottom, and installed 
a spigot, that works great.  I cut a hole in the top, and run a gutter 
downspout into it, also no problem.

http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel1.jpg

    Where gravity seems to be broken is in the area of the overflow.  I 
drilled a hole, and installed a simple fitting to which I attached a 
garden hose.

http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel3.jpg

    Water will not flow through that hose when attached to the barrel.

http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel2.jpg

    I've tried two different hoses ( and normal garden hose, and this 
coiled one pictured ), with the same result.  They are not blocked, 
kinked or otherwise obstructed, and they flow fine when attached to any 
other source.  When I remove the hose, water flows out just fine as you 
can see here.

http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel6.jpg

    It doesn't make any difference if the lid or cap on the barrel are 
tight, since they aren't close to air-tight.  With either hose on, the 
barrel will fill completely, and overflow out the top, but it will not 
flow downhill, unless I open the spigot at the bottom which will drain it 
fine.

http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel4.jpg

    This should be so simple.  I am out of ideas.  Anyone have any? 
Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From racertod at racertodd.com  Mon Jun 29 18:43:57 2009
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:43:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a bolt
In-Reply-To: <20090629070217895.UIJP20969@cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906290143220.16668@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090629171457.00c3fbf0@mail.blarg.net>

         I'm a fan of Carroll Smith's book "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, And 
Plumbing Handbook".  His beef with the SAE Grade 5, Grade 8 type hardware 
is that they're hard and thus brittle.  He recommends AN bolts which will 
generally bend rather than snap when overloaded.

         A 5/8" bolt is an AN10.  It's available in a wide variety of grip 
lengths.  Grip length is the unthreaded portion under the head.  Any 
aircraft hardware store will stock them.  They'll also have matching 
washers and nylock nuts.

         Page 59 in the book 
(http://books.google.com/books?id=A81HmmRCN7YC&pg=PA59) shows the shear 
strength of a AN10 bolt at 23,000 lbs in single shear and thus 46,000 lbs 
in double shear.

         The key is measuring the grip length you need, including any 
washers you'll be using.  You definitely do not want load on the threaded 
portion, that's asking for trouble.

         The previous page in the book has a chart with the grip lengths 
available.  The "dash" number indicates the length and is added after the 
AN10 designation.  For example, if you need a grip length of 2 1/16", then 
you'd order an AN10-27A part number.  The "A" after the dash number 
indicates no hole in the head for safety wire.  No "A" means it'll have a 
safety wire hole.


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 269,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       208,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jun 29 18:51:33 2009
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (rwil at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:51:33 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dewalt 18 V Batteries
Message-ID: <465289146-1246323111-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620813531-@bxe1002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I also had good luck with Primecell rebuilding a couple of 12volt Makita batteries. They've held up for a couple of years now. 
-Roland 


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 19:15:17 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:15:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dewalt 18 V Batteries
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090629200856.02ae4b68@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20090629200856.02ae4b68@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906291815n22b58a30l97225548d474dc84@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Skip Albright<salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> I'll add a + for Primecell. I sent them an 18v battery. It came back better
> and seems to be holding up well.

Primecell still have their entirely misleading page about Li-Ion cells
up.  (It claims, falsely, that the packs can't be rebuilt; that the
cells required to do so aren't available to them; and that if you look
at them cross-eyed they won't work.)  What they had to say might have
been true five or six years ago, but it isn't now.  It requires a bit
more knowledge than knowing which end of the soldering iron is hot, so
it might beyond their capabilities, but it's not impossible.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 19:47:17 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:47:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
In-Reply-To: <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com> <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360906291847m6897ae73m5833b49b6725604c@mail.gmail.com>

*I can understand why there is slow flow out the vent since there is only an
inch of "head" above the hose connect but what in 'ell is creating the
pressure in the photo where the water is spurting out?  Is the downspout
standing full of water or something?*
*Tony*

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:18 PM, David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com>wrote:

>   Since we've been on the topic of moving water around lately, and I cannot
> figure this problem out, I have to ask this stupid question.  How can I make
> water flow downhill?
>
>   A couple weeks ago, I bought a rain-barrel 'kit' ( not much more than a
> plastic barrel, really ).  I drilled a hole near the bottom, and installed a
> spigot, that works great.  I cut a hole in the top, and run a gutter
> downspout into it, also no problem.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel1.jpg
>
>   Where gravity seems to be broken is in the area of the overflow.  I
> drilled a hole, and installed a simple fitting to which I attached a garden
> hose.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel3.jpg
>
>   Water will not flow through that hose when attached to the barrel.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel2.jpg
>
>   I've tried two different hoses ( and normal garden hose, and this coiled
> one pictured ), with the same result.  They are not blocked, kinked or
> otherwise obstructed, and they flow fine when attached to any other source.
>  When I remove the hose, water flows out just fine as you can see here.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel6.jpg
>
>   It doesn't make any difference if the lid or cap on the barrel are tight,
> since they aren't close to air-tight.  With either hose on, the barrel will
> fill completely, and overflow out the top, but it will not flow downhill,
> unless I open the spigot at the bottom which will drain it fine.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel4.jpg
>
>   This should be so simple.  I am out of ideas.  Anyone have any? Thanks.
>
> --
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From brabel at comcast.net  Mon Jun 29 20:09:06 2009
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:09:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <A6B26AB07AA748CC89799D6B01FB8CB7@DesktopPC>
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><0KM000IB3C3F69M0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<CCB2BAAC6BBA4E52AE1A67C0F8F4CAEC@stargate>
	<A6B26AB07AA748CC89799D6B01FB8CB7@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <93B58FEC-34F8-4863-945A-8C1E0490AB14@comcast.net>

Here's my mailbox. My neighbors formerly each had their own 4x4 post.





On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:39 PM, "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com 
 > wrote:

> OK, I wasn't going to bring up my solution.....but now I will<grin>
> The neighbor's teenage son (I'm nearly 99% sure) decided to take
> a sideswipe to our mailbox some years ago.  It was a typical
> rural metal box on a 4x4 post.  It was about this time that Lowes
> had first offered those green/tan plastic boxes designed to slip over
> a 4x4 post.
>
> We purchased one of the plastic boxes, 4 bags of Quik-Crete and a
> 1/4 inch thick steel 4 x 4 tubing, about 7 feet long.  3 plus bags of
> concrete went into the deep hole and the rest of the concrete filled  
> up
> the 4 x 4 square tubing.  We then slid the plastic box and column  
> over the
> top of the tubing and thru-bolted to the steel.
>
> I don't know if the neighbor kid saw what we did or not, but the
> effect has been the same..........no more knocking over the mailbox.
> Now, if we can just keep the drivers from running off the road and
> thru our pasture fencing at the first hint of snow!
>
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA

From brabel at comcast.net  Mon Jun 29 20:15:14 2009
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:15:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <93B58FEC-34F8-4863-945A-8C1E0490AB14@comcast.net>
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><0KM000IB3C3F69M0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<CCB2BAAC6BBA4E52AE1A67C0F8F4CAEC@stargate>
	<A6B26AB07AA748CC89799D6B01FB8CB7@DesktopPC>
	<93B58FEC-34F8-4863-945A-8C1E0490AB14@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8587F1B2-539C-45B5-999F-CCAEDC3D4DDD@comcast.net>

Whoops. I forgot that pictures get stripped. I'll have to get the  
picture off my phone and to a 'better place'. Sorry for the goof.


> Here's my mailbox. My neighbors formerly each had their own 4x4 post.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:39 PM, "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> OK, I wasn't going to bring up my solution.....but now I will<grin>
>> The neighbor's teenage son (I'm nearly 99% sure) decided to take
>> a sideswipe to our mailbox some years ago.  It was a typical
>> rural metal box on a 4x4 post.  It was about this time that Lowes
>> had first offered those green/tan plastic boxes designed to slip over
>> a 4x4 post.

From brabel at comcast.net  Mon Jun 29 20:20:28 2009
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:20:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <93B58FEC-34F8-4863-945A-8C1E0490AB14@comcast.net>
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><0KM000IB3C3F69M0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<CCB2BAAC6BBA4E52AE1A67C0F8F4CAEC@stargate>
	<A6B26AB07AA748CC89799D6B01FB8CB7@DesktopPC>
	<93B58FEC-34F8-4863-945A-8C1E0490AB14@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <34DF950B-3B6D-40DB-A26D-88BB8F0609C6@comcast.net>

Here's where to see my mailbox.

<http://www.me.com/gallery/#100010/Mailbox> Double-click on the oval  
"album" and then double click on the one photo to enlarge it.

> Here's my mailbox. My neighbors formerly each had their own 4x4 post.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:39 PM, "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> OK, I wasn't going to bring up my solution.....but now I will<grin>
>> The neighbor's teenage son (I'm nearly 99% sure) decided to take
>> a sideswipe to our mailbox some years ago.  It was a typical
>> rural metal box on a 4x4 post.  It was about this time that Lowes
>> had first offered those green/tan plastic boxes designed to slip over
>> a 4x4 post.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Jun 29 20:37:53 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:37:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360906291847m6897ae73m5833b49b6725604c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com> <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
	<ea2385360906291847m6897ae73m5833b49b6725604c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090629223238.U54547@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> *I can understand why there is slow flow out the vent since there is only an
> inch of "head" above the hose connect but what in 'ell is creating the
> pressure in the photo where the water is spurting out?  Is the downspout
> standing full of water or something?*

    There's no water in the downspout, that's just the pressure from the 
several inches of water in the top of the barrel.  As you may have 
noticed, the 'seal' between the downspout and the top of the barrel is 
just some sloppy tape ( for now ).  Not to mention, the screw-on cap is 
off the top, as well, so there's no way for pressure to build ( other than 
the several inches to the top of the barrel, that is ).

    I'm not looking to make a pressure washer, though ;)  I just want the 
damn overflow to overflow.

    Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Jun 29 23:27:51 2009
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:27:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] New Garage
In-Reply-To: <200906281621.n5SGL0ZA008467@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200906281621.n5SGL0ZA008467@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <000401c9f943$84357230$8ca05690$@mele@usermail.com>

> But that is great advice for anyone putting a floor in the main shop.

Yes - but there's an alternative to crowning, which is just a small 
slope - 1/8" per foot or so is enough for drainage but won't really
bother the lift.
_______________________________________________

my lift instructions said to use grout (load bearing) to level the mounting
surface for the posts.  IIRC, up to 1/8 in thick is in spec...enough to
level out a slope or a crown I'd guess.

PM

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jun 30 04:04:40 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:04:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <34DF950B-3B6D-40DB-A26D-88BB8F0609C6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <OFAD681546.7E35F71A-ON852575E5.00372DA3-852575E5.0038D200@mail.megageek.com>

Thanks Bill, but I can't view it.  I've never seen a page where "IE" is an 
"unsupported" browser and you can't continue without firefox or Safari. IE 
does suck, but it is by far the industry standard.

Is there a way to view it without installing the additional browser?

Thanks.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



Bill Rabel <brabel at comcast.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/29/2009 22:06

To
Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes






Here's where to see my mailbox.

<http://www.me.com/gallery/#100010/Mailbox> Double-click on the oval 
"album" and then double click on the one photo to enlarge it.

> Here's my mailbox. My neighbors formerly each had their own 4x4 post.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:39 PM, "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" 
<gsteve at hammatt.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> OK, I wasn't going to bring up my solution.....but now I will<grin>
>> The neighbor's teenage son (I'm nearly 99% sure) decided to take
>> a sideswipe to our mailbox some years ago.  It was a typical
>> rural metal box on a 4x4 post.  It was about this time that Lowes
>> had first offered those green/tan plastic boxes designed to slip over
>> a 4x4 post.
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Tue Jun 30 04:51:42 2009
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:51:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <1691649275.781561246358883051.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1615725153.782081246359102353.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Sorry, Eric, but IE is not "the industry standard," just a common browser.

HTML-4 is the standard, promulgated and controlled by the w3c.  <http://www.w3.org/> and especially <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/>  IE is an implementation of a user interface for the sites serving information using the HTML language - a user interface which includes many non-standard extensions and neglects certain portions of the standard.  Microsoft has made an effort to get some of their extensions adopted by the standards body, but most of their proposed changes are very narrow in focus and usually address situations already addressed by the standard, just not like MS would have wanted it.

Many people using a product doesn't make it a standard.  Many people use their right hand in preference to their left.  Doesn't make it a standard.

Please reply off-list.  I'll summarise for anyone interested.
Donald.

----- Original Message -----
From: eric at megageek.com
To: "Bill Rabel" <brabel at comcast.net>
Cc: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:04:40 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes

Thanks Bill, but I can't view it.  I've never seen a page where "IE" is an 
"unsupported" browser and you can't continue without firefox or Safari. IE 
does suck, but it is by far the industry standard.

Is there a way to view it without installing the additional browser?

Thanks.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



Bill Rabel <brabel at comcast.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
06/29/2009 22:06

To
Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes



Here's where to see my mailbox.

<http://www.me.com/gallery/#100010/Mailbox> Double-click on the oval 
"album" and then double click on the one photo to enlarge it.

> Here's my mailbox. My neighbors formerly each had their own 4x4 post.
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:39 PM, "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" 
<gsteve at hammatt.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> OK, I wasn't going to bring up my solution.....but now I will<grin>
>> The neighbor's teenage son (I'm nearly 99% sure) decided to take
>> a sideswipe to our mailbox some years ago.  It was a typical
>> rural metal box on a 4x4 post.  It was about this time that Lowes
>> had first offered those green/tan plastic boxes designed to slip over
>> a 4x4 post.
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

[snip]

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 06:39:05 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
Message-ID: <129940.37002.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I tried it with Firefox, and that didn't work, either.  It asks for a
password.

Doug

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net>
wrote:

> From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re:
[Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
> To: eric at megageek.com
> Cc: "Shop
Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 6:51 AM
>
Sorry, Eric, but IE is not "the
> industry standard," just a common browser.
>
> HTML-4 is the standard, promulgated and controlled by the
> w3c. 
<http://www.w3.org/> and especially <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/>  IE is an
> implementation of a user interface for the sites serving
> information using
the HTML language - a user interface which
> includes many non-standard
extensions and neglects certain
> portions of the standard.  Microsoft has
made an effort
> to get some of their extensions adopted by the standards
>
body, but most of their proposed changes are very narrow in
> focus and
usually address situations already addressed by
> the standard, just not like
MS would have wanted it.
> 
> Many people using a product doesn't make it a
>
standard.  Many people use their right hand in
> preference to their left. 
Doesn't make it a standard.
> 
> Please reply off-list.  I'll summarise for
anyone
> interested.
> Donald.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
eric at megageek.com
> To: "Bill Rabel" <brabel at comcast.net>
> Cc: "Shop Talk"
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:04:40 AM GMT
-05:00
> US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all
mailboxes
> 
> Thanks Bill, but I can't view it.  I've never seen a
> page
where "IE" is an 
> "unsupported" browser and you can't continue without
>
firefox or Safari. IE 
> does suck, but it is by far the industry standard.
>
> Is there a way to view it without installing the additional
> browser?
> 
>
Thanks.
> 
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander
the
> Great.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Rabel <brabel at comcast.net>
> 
> Sent by:
shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 06/29/2009 22:06
> 
> To
> Shop Talk
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> cc
> 
> Subject
> Re: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end
all mailboxes
> 
> 
> 
> Here's where to see my mailbox.
> 
>
<http://www.me.com/gallery/#100010/Mailbox>
> Double-click on the oval 
>
"album" and then double click on the one photo to enlarge
> it.
> 
> > Here's
my mailbox. My neighbors formerly each had
> their own 4x4 post.
> >
> >
> >
On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:39 PM, "Steve Hammatt Mount
> Vernon WA USA" 
>
<gsteve at hammatt.com
> 
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> OK, I wasn't going to bring up my
solution.....but
> now I will<grin>
> >> The neighbor's teenage son (I'm
nearly 99% sure)
> decided to take
> >> a sideswipe to our mailbox some years
ago. 
> It was a typical
> >> rural metal box on a 4x4 post.  It was about
>
this time that Lowes
> >> had first offered those green/tan plastic boxes
>
designed to slip over
> >> a 4x4 post.
> You are subscribed as
eric at megageek.com
> 
> [snip]
>
_______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
>
http://www.team.net/archive

From lane495 at nctc.com  Tue Jun 30 07:00:00 2009
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:00:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
References: <OF1729B1C3.E32EAC1F-ON852575E3.003DDBB5-852575E3.003F9A2F@mail.megageek.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387E3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><0KM000IB3C3F69M0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<CCB2BAAC6BBA4E52AE1A67C0F8F4CAEC@stargate>
Message-ID: <7BA99B5623124A12AC7F7DF9D8A5ABD6@osiris>

I wasn't going to share my mailbox story, but why not?

When we first moved down here to Tennessee many moons ago (I will not age 
myself), we had a very simple unintrusive small mailbox at the end of our 
long driveway.

One morning I go down to check the mail and some smart allack had taken the 
front of the mailbox and pushed it up and  backwards so it was better as a 
water collector than a mail receptacle.  Ok, I'm young, stupid, and ticked, 
I can fix these people.  I take the mailbox off of its 1 x 6 base and 
proceed to nail in,  oh I don't know, maybe 50 8d nails.  I figure if they 
want to lift my mailbox off, they will have pain inflicted on them in their 
efforts.

A week or so goes by and one evening I here language that I haven't heard 
since I was in the Air Force.  I go down to see what the racket is about and 
notice blood and what appears to be skin on the front nails that are 
protuding from the mailbox base.  I am overjoyed that I outsmarted the 
little vandals!

My joy was short lived, as the next night they came through with a baseball 
bat and pummeled my poor little mailbox.

Ok, I can deal with this too.  I sink a 6" galvanized post 3' in the ground 
and fill it with concrete and stick 3 J-bolts in the top of the post. I gave 
my husband specific instructions to build me a cage for the new mailbox.  He 
works out at the air base, and they had the proper tools to build this 
contraption.  Remember, we were young, stupid and didn't have good tools at 
this point.  He built a cage out of 1/2" rebar that fit nicely into a larger 
mailbox I purchased.  Being a guy, he decided to add a metal skin to the 
outside of the rebar, just because.  He brings this home to me and I mount 
it inside the mailbox.  I dub the mail box
"SAM -  Suburban Assault Mailbox".

I await anxiously for the little heathens to attack the new mailbox.  It was 
only a week in waiting, and they must have had a curfew, because at around 
7pm one evening we hear "SMACK",  then a lot more language that is usually 
heard in the Navy.  We go down to check the damage.  SAM has an itty bitty 
dent in his side, but I am sure the kid who smacked it is in pain.  Success!

SAM still stands to this day, protecting our mail from the local kids.

Patricia

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jun 30 07:16:16 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:16:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mailbox to end all mailboxes
In-Reply-To: <1615725153.782081246359102353.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1615725153.782081246359102353.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906300914560.29085@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Donald H Locker wrote:
> Many people using a product doesn't make it a standard.  Many people use 
> their right hand in preference to their left.  Doesn't make it a 
> standard.

Maybe not, but I bet smart golf club makers make sure to bring out the 
right handed version of their new club first.

The idea that a website would be broken for IE is just poor customer 
service.

Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 08:51:54 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:51:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
Message-ID: <829134.91307.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I'm planning to add a pair of circuits to my home's circuit breaker panel for a whole-house surge suppressor, an Insteon phase coupler, and an outlet, all right next to the box in the little closet where it is located.  Since the surge suppressor and phase coupler work with both phases, I am using two independent 15-amp breakers.

My question is about the outlet:  I can take a standard duplex outlet and break the little tab connecting the hot sides, thus turning it into two independent outlets.  I want to do this, and feed one phase to the upper outlet, and the other phase to the lower outlet, with each on a separate breaker.

Is this allowed according to the NEC?  Is it a good idea?  Would it be more legal, or wiser, to use a duplex breaker so both outlets are always switched together?

BTW, I bought several Insteon switches and controllers form Smarthome, and so far (one week) I am pleased with them.  I also ordered their computer interface that you can use to have your computer sense and control things.  Hopefully I can report more after I have played with it for a while.  I tried some X10 stuff years ago, and decided it was hopelessly flaky.

Doug

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 09:08:57 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:08:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
In-Reply-To: <829134.91307.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <829134.91307.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906300808m8b4e586u860ae1378b080ce6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Doug Braun<doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm planning to add a pair of circuits to my home's circuit breaker panel
for a whole-house surge suppressor, an Insteon phase coupler, and an outlet,
all right next to the box in the little closet where it is located. B Since
the surge suppressor and phase coupler work with both phases, I am using two
independent 15-amp breakers.
>
> My question is about the outlet: B I can take a standard duplex outlet and
break the little tab connecting the hot sides, thus turning it into two
independent outlets. B I want to do this, and feed one phase to the upper
outlet, and the other phase to the lower outlet, with each on a separate
breaker.
>
> Is this allowed according to the NEC? B Is it a good idea? B Would it be
more legal, or wiser, to use a duplex breaker so both outlets are always
switched together?
>

It would be wiser to use a double pole breaker, or a handle tie.
There is a lot of variation on what's required for split duplex
outlets: both the 2005 and 2008 NEC made changes to requirements (2008
does required tied breakers.  2005 changed where it's allowed or not,
as I recall.), and as there's a lag between the NEC updates and local
code updates (as well as variation in what parts are adopted), you're
local codes will vary.

And, despite what insteon calls it, you've only got one phase in your
home wiring.  What you have is single phase center tapped.  Both hots
are on the same phase.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Tue Jun 30 09:15:36 2009
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:15:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
In-Reply-To: <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com> <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4A4A2C18.4070507@comcast.net>

David Hillman wrote:
>    Since we've been on the topic of moving water around lately, and I 
> cannot figure this problem out, I have to ask this stupid question.  
> How can I make water flow downhill?
>
>    A couple weeks ago, I bought a rain-barrel 'kit' ( not much more 
> than a plastic barrel, really ).  I drilled a hole near the bottom, 
> and installed a spigot, that works great.  I cut a hole in the top, 
> and run a gutter downspout into it, also no problem.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel1.jpg
>
>    Where gravity seems to be broken is in the area of the overflow.  I 
> drilled a hole, and installed a simple fitting to which I attached a 
> garden hose.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel3.jpg
>
>    Water will not flow through that hose when attached to the barrel.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel2.jpg
>
>    I've tried two different hoses ( and normal garden hose, and this 
> coiled one pictured ), with the same result.  They are not blocked, 
> kinked or otherwise obstructed, and they flow fine when attached to 
> any other source.  When I remove the hose, water flows out just fine 
> as you can see here.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel6.jpg
>
>    It doesn't make any difference if the lid or cap on the barrel are 
> tight, since they aren't close to air-tight.  With either hose on, the 
> barrel will fill completely, and overflow out the top, but it will not 
> flow downhill, unless I open the spigot at the bottom which will drain 
> it fine.
>
> http://planet-torque.com/home/rainbarrel/rainbarrel4.jpg
>
>    This should be so simple.  I am out of ideas.  Anyone have any? 
> Thanks.
Looking at the pics, the barrel is not level.  The water sitting on top 
of the barrel suggests the overflow side is on the high side. My guess 
is the overflow is an inch or two higher than it would be if the barrel 
was level.  The overflow is also angled up.  Add a stiff hose and the 
water out the overflow has to travel UPHILL and inch or so.  Look at the 
pics with the hose off and on.  It appears the hose is higher than the 
stream flowing out without the hose.  Leveling the barrel would 
effectively lower the overflow a couple of inches and reduce the uphill 
climb.

One observation: your overflow is too small.  The downspout which is 
guessing 10 square inches; the hose has maybe 1/4 square inch ID.  The 
thickest garden hose won't be able to handle the overflow;  they make 
downspouts big for a reason.

Peter Thomas
>
> -- 
>  David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jun 30 10:09:09 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
In-Reply-To: <4A4A2C18.4070507@comcast.net>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com> <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
	<4A4A2C18.4070507@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20090630114431.V47481@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Peter J. Thomas wrote:
> Looking at the pics, the barrel is not level.  The water sitting on top of 
> the barrel suggests the overflow side is on the high side. My guess is the 
> overflow is an inch or two higher than it would be if the barrel was level.

     The barrel is actually level; the black screw-on top isn't necessarily 
level because it fits poorly.

> The overflow is also angled up.  Add a stiff hose and the water out the 
> overflow has to travel UPHILL and inch or so.  Look at the pics with the hose 
> off and on.  It appears the hose is higher than the stream flowing out 
> without the hose.  Leveling the barrel would effectively lower the overflow a 
> couple of inches and reduce the uphill climb.

     There is a slight angle to the overflow fitting, but there's really 
no way around that with the shape of the barrel.  Even still, the pressure 
is sufficient to force a stream of water shown in the other picture. 
Maybe I will have to tip the barrel.

> One observation: your overflow is too small.  The downspout which is guessing 
> 10 square inches; the hose has maybe 1/4 square inch ID.  The thickest garden 
> hose won't be able to handle the overflow;  they make downspouts big for a 
> reason.

    I know it won't keep up with significant rain, neither will the barrel 
for that matter.  I did the math and something like a 1/4" of rain will 
fill it.  I don't care if the overflow completely prevents the barrel from 
filling or not, I just want it to help direct water where I want it to go 
( and let me keep 50 gallons from each downpour to re-use when it isn't 
raining ).

    That said, it may be different where you live, but I've never seen my 
downspouts at anything close to 100% capacity.  Maybe 5-10%.

    Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Jun 30 10:46:49 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:46:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com> <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
	<4A4A2C18.4070507@comcast.net>
	<20090630114431.V47481@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c9f9a2$5df64a90$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> There is a slight angle to the overflow fitting, but there's really no way 
> around that with the shape of the barrel.  Even still, the pressure is 
> sufficient to force a stream of water shown in the other picture.

Though if the angle has the hose arced up above the surface of the water, 
it's effectively capped.  For the wter in the drain hose will not rise 
higher than the surface of the water in the barrel.

It doesn't appear to be enough of an angle or height to me, but perhaps it 
really is. 

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Jun 30 11:19:12 2009
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:19:12 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
In-Reply-To: <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
References: <OF16E4C07E.FC9739E8-ON852575E4.00804180-852575E4.0081FADA@mail.megageek.com>
	<4A49555B.2080209@xxiii.com> <20090629200220.J26099@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4A4A4910.50506@landform.co.uk>

David Hillman wrote:
>    Since we've been on the topic of moving water around lately, and I 
> cannot figure this problem out, I have to ask this stupid question.  
> How can I make water flow downhill?
Could you try fitting a vertical dropshaft outside the barrel? Fit a 
right angle bend  to the existing outlet point then a length of tube 
(say 1 inch i.d.) vertically down to ground level terminated in another 
right angle bend with hose connection. That way should increase the head 
of water in the hose and overcome the friction in the walls which the 
cause of your problem, IMHO. Particularly in the coiled hose.

Nick Brearley

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 12:59:27 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
Message-ID: <495367.60582.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well, that terminology is from the people who brought you "luminaire"...

Doug
--- On Tue, 6/30/09, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> And,
despite what insteon calls it, you've only got one
> phase in your
> home
wiring.  What you have is single phase center
> tapped.  Both hots
> are on
the same phase.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun 30 13:13:05 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:13:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906300808m8b4e586u860ae1378b080ce6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <829134.91307.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40906300808m8b4e586u860ae1378b080ce6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38A5ED53DBB3416DB9C661009C41B2FC@jdnet.deere.com>

> And, despite what insteon calls it, you've only got one phase in your
> home wiring.  What you have is single phase center tapped.  Both hots
> are on the same phase.

Depends on your point of view.  Put both hots on a scope at the same time
and you'll find that they are different phases (when using the neutral as a
reference).  From an EE point of view, there are two phases available,
separated by 180 degrees.  If the two wires were in phase, and both the same
voltage to ground, there would be no net voltage between them.

But to an electrician, this is a split-phase system, rather then two phase.

-- Randall 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 13:28:23 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:28:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
Message-ID: <593449.77576.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

BTW, I recently read of a nice way to make a through-bulkhead PVC pipe flange.
You can easily get a PVC fitting that goes from a glue-in socket to male or
female pipe threads.  But the threads are tapered of course, so you can't
really use them like a nut and bolt to go through a bulkhead.

The trick is to
get the equivalent PVC fittings for electrical conduits.  They fit the same
size PVC pipe, but have straight threads.  Then you can drill the
correctly-sized hole through the barrel, pass the male fitting through it, and
use a female fitting as a nut to hold it in place.

This trick would help you
make a 1" or 1.5" dropshaft.

Doug

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, nick brearley
<nick at landform.co.uk> wrote:

> From: nick brearley <nick at landform.co.uk>
>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How to Make Water Flow Downhill
> To: "David Hillman"
<hillman at planet-torque.com>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 1:19 PM
> David Hillman wrote:
> >    Since
we've been on the topic of moving
> water around lately, and I cannot figure
this problem out, I
> have to ask this stupid question.  How can I make water
> flow downhill?
> Could you try fitting a vertical dropshaft outside the
>
barrel? Fit a right angle bend  to the existing outlet
> point then a length
of tube (say 1 inch i.d.) vertically
> down to ground level terminated in
another right angle bend
> with hose connection. That way should increase the
head of
> water in the hose and overcome the friction in the walls
> which the
cause of your problem, IMHO. Particularly in the
> coiled hose.
> 
> Nick
Brearley
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
>
http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 13:32:27 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
Message-ID: <340513.31474.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Let's not forget "grounded conductor" vs "grounding conductor"!

Doug


>
> Well, that terminology is from the
> people who brought you "luminaire"...
> 
> Doug

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Tue Jun 30 14:32:47 2009
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:32:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3 season porch
Message-ID: <0E19124E2E3A456CB18A760A124E010E@Fest>

Anyone ever enclosed their porch with any of the newer products that snap (at
least in their advertisement) in place.  We have a real nice porch on our
house that use to be screened in.  I've priced out windows and they're
rediculous price wise.  Anyone have any suggestions ?? We'd like to use in for
3 seasons at least.
Thanks,
Dan

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 15:23:03 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:23:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
In-Reply-To: <38A5ED53DBB3416DB9C661009C41B2FC@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <829134.91307.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40906300808m8b4e586u860ae1378b080ce6@mail.gmail.com>
	<38A5ED53DBB3416DB9C661009C41B2FC@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906301423o51260f1sd9c3b9cb11bc79de@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Randall<tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> And, despite what insteon calls it, you've only got one phase in your
>> home wiring. B What you have is single phase center tapped. B Both hots
>> are on the same phase.
>
> Depends on your point of view. B Put both hots on a scope at the same time
> and you'll find that they are different phases (when using the neutral as a
> reference). B From an EE point of view, there are two phases available,
> separated by 180 degrees. B If the two wires were in phase, and both the
same
> voltage to ground, there would be no net voltage between them.
>
> But to an electrician, this is a split-phase system, rather then two phase.

My AC circuits prof would box your ears for that.  There's one phase.
Choosing the neutral as a measuring point doesn't magically give you
two.  (Were there really two phases, you wouldn't be able to run 240V
loads from the system.)


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eabb at loc.gov  Tue Jun 30 15:26:36 2009
From: eabb at loc.gov (Eugene D Abbondelo)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:26:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Minimum wall thickness on tubing
Message-ID: <4A4A4ACC0200007400070B20@ntgwgate.loc.gov>

Hope someone can help with this query. Hope it isn't too simplistic: 

I need to make straight-cut outside threads on some B= " steel tubing. 
I can buy the tubing in various wall thicknesses.  What would be the
minimum wall thickness needed to produce good threads that won't weaken
the tubing using your basic tap and die set?

Thanks,

Gene

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 16:26:20 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:26:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
Message-ID: <56910.82713.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

So, what DOES a real two-phase circuit look like?

Doug

--- On Tue, 6/30/09,
David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> My AC circuits prof would box
your ears for that. 
> There's one phase.
> Choosing the neutral as a
measuring point doesn't magically
> give you
> two.  (Were there really two
phases, you wouldn't be
> able to run 240V
> loads from the system.)

From arvidj at visi.com  Tue Jun 30 16:58:24 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:58:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
References: <56910.82713.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <992E5B2C6B1245FF8D1E44B4F7554E68@behavioral.com>

You made me Google it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power

and I think the salient point is ...

Three-wire, 120/240 volt single phase power used in the USA and Canada is 
sometimes incorrectly called "two-phase". The proper term is split phase or 
3-wire single-phase.

Of course if you give not credence to what you find on Wikipedia then what I 
have provided is simply 'delete fodder'.


> So, what DOES a real two-phase circuit look like?
>
> Doug

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Tue Jun 30 17:11:39 2009
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:11:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
In-Reply-To: <56910.82713.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <56910.82713.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A26E52E1-BABE-4AF1-B0ED-B1358D255DC3@te-motorworks.com>

A 2 phase circuit would look like what I have here in my shop (an old  
building in Philadelphia): two separate, 240 V single phase circuits  
phased 90 degrees apart.  Upon entering the shop, these two circuits  
run into a 2 phase -> 3 phase transformer.

Interesting footnote: This building is apparently supplied by the  
city with 3 phase (the city having all but terminated 2 phase service  
so far as I know to all but a small group of buildings), which is  
apparently transformed to 2 phase and run through out the building to  
the individual shops, which may then either pull off one leg for  
single phase 240 V service, or which may use both legs for conversion  
back to 3 phase (or do a little of both, as I do).

The building is reported to have a quite unfavorable power factor.

-vin




On Jun 30, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Doug Braun wrote:

> So, what DOES a real two-phase circuit look like?
>
> Doug
>
> --- On Tue, 6/30/09,
> David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> My AC circuits prof would box
> your ears for that.
>> There's one phase.
>> Choosing the neutral as a
> measuring point doesn't magically
>> give you
>> two.  (Were there really two
> phases, you wouldn't be
>> able to run 240V
>> loads from the system.)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 17:19:22 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
Message-ID: <368273.10793.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I recently read an article about how Con Edison (the electric company in NYC)
had finally stopped providing DC service in 2007.  Apparently some old
buildings needed it for their old elevators.  I have no idea how many phases
they provided :-)

Doug

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Vin Marshall
<vlm at te-motorworks.com> wrote:

> From: Vin Marshall <vlm at te-motorworks.com>
>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
> To: "Shop-Talk List"
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Cc: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
> Date:
Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 7:11 PM
> A 2 phase circuit would look like
> what I
have here in my shop (an old building in
> Philadelphia): two separate, 240 V
single phase circuits
> phased 90 degrees apart.  Upon entering the shop,
these
> two circuits run into a 2 phase -> 3 phase transformer.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 17:21:52 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:21:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
Message-ID: <18511.62891.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What is the application for that?

And also, a rhetorical question:  If I had
two conductors (besides ground) with the waveforms separated by 147.832
degrees, what would it be called?

Doug

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, David Scheidt
<dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
> To: "Doug Braun"
<doug at dougbraun.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 6:50 PM
> On Tue, Jun 30,
2009 at 6:26 PM, Doug
> Braun<doug at dougbraun.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > So, what
DOES a real two-phase circuit look like?
> >
> 
> The two phases are seperated
by 90 degrees.  Requires
> four wires (or
> three, with a large neutral, since
it carries the vector
> sum of the
> two circuits voltages.)
> 
> -- 
> David
Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 17:54:48 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:54:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
In-Reply-To: <18511.62891.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <18511.62891.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40906301654k5993c076j6df8475704e79e8c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Doug Braun<doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
>
> What is the application for that?
>

two phase power allows for self-starting motors, and the math is
simpler than three-phase.  Once you know how to do the math for
three-phase (which didn't really happen until the first decade of the
20th century), it's of little interest, since it requires more wire
than three-phase, and three-phase is easier to build.
I'm a little surprised to find there's any left.

> And also, a rhetorical question: B If I had two conductors (besides ground)
with the waveforms separated by 147.832 degrees, what would it be called?

You can have two phase power with the two-phases seperated by whatever
non-zero amount you want.  You can't, however, have two-phase power
that has a phase shift of zero degrees.  that's what US household
power is.

>
> Doug
>
> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
>> To: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 6:50 PM
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Doug
>> Braun<doug at dougbraun.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > So, what DOES a real two-phase circuit look like?
>> >
>>
>> The two phases are seperated by 90 degrees.B  Requires
>> four wires (or
>> three, with a large neutral, since it carries the vector
>> sum of the
>> two circuits voltages.)
>>
>> --
>> David Scheidt
>> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>>
>



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jun 30 18:05:13 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:05:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
Message-ID: <720515.47987.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

So then, if I had two-phase power with a shift of 180 degrees, what would it
look like compared to household power?

Doug

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, David
Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> You can have two phase power with
the two-phases seperated
> by whatever
> non-zero amount you want.  You can't,
however, have
> two-phase power
> that has a phase shift of zero degrees. 
that's what
> US household
> power is.

From racertod at racertodd.com  Tue Jun 30 18:09:01 2009
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:09:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eric's New Garage
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090630170702.00c331c0@mail.blarg.net>

         When you put up your new garage, ya all nail down tight to the 
foundation, ya hear?

http://cellar.org/iotd.php?threadid=20563


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 269,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       208,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jun 30 20:27:15 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:27:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Minimum wall thickness on tubing
In-Reply-To: <4A4A4ACC0200007400070B20@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <4A4A4ACC0200007400070B20@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0906302224330.25596@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Eugene D Abbondelo wrote:
> Hope someone can help with this query. Hope it isn't too simplistic:
>
> I need to make straight-cut outside threads on some B= " steel tubing.
> I can buy the tubing in various wall thicknesses.  What would be the
> minimum wall thickness needed to produce good threads that won't weaken
> the tubing using your basic tap and die set?

I may be misunderstanding the question, but cutting threads on any wall 
thickness tubing will weaken it, pretty much by definition I think.

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jun 30 20:50:14 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:50:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet Another Wiring Question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40906301423o51260f1sd9c3b9cb11bc79de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090701025014318.QHDK19903@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>

> My AC circuits prof would box your ears for that.  There's one phase.
> Choosing the neutral as a measuring point doesn't magically give you
> two.  (Were there really two phases, you wouldn't be able to run 240V
> loads from the system.)

Actually, it's the other way around.  If they weren't different phases,
there would be no voltage at all between them.  But in fact they are
different, by 180 degrees.

One phase looks kind of like this crude ASCII art :
  _       _
 / \     / \
|   |   |   |
    |   |   |   |
     \_/     \_/

While the other is
      _       _
     / \     / \
    |   |   |   |
|   |   |   |
 \_/     \_/

Not the same at all.  

And the fact you can add them together to get twice the voltage proves that
they are 180 degrees apart.  The same thing is not true in a 3-phase system,
because the 3 legs are each 120 degrees (360/3) apart.

Furthermore it is possible to have a 2-phase system where the two legs are
not 180 degrees apart, but it's not used much.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jun 30 22:04:15 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:04:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Minimum wall thickness on tubing
Message-ID: <200907010404.n6144FAj016484@moose.dimebank.com>

> I need to make straight-cut outside threads on some B= " steel tubing.
> I can buy the tubing in various wall thicknesses.  What would be the
> minimum wall thickness needed to produce good threads that won't weaken
> the tubing using your basic tap and die set?

"It depends".

Let's assume you're talking about ANSI 60 degree thread form, since that's what
you'll find in a basic tap and die set. The thread depth is 0.650/tpi,
so if the wall is exactly that thick, you'll have nothing left when 
you've cut the thread. 

But that's a flat top thread. Your dies may cut a sharp V thread, where
the depth is 0.866/tpi. 

So those are the baseline required thicknesses - can't go thinner than
that. Now you have to decide how thick you need the root of the
thread to be, given the material and application.