From eric at megageek.com Wed Jul 1 03:42:07 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 05:42:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) Message-ID: OK, the new table saw came yesterday and I got it all set up. I still need a new electrical outlet for it, so I haven't run it yet, but it's all set up. I was very impressed overall, there are a few things I'm not so happy with. The blade guard and anti-kickback mechanism is a pain. First, off, it has a notch to hold it up (when you are changing the blade, etc.) but it doesn't want to stay "up." I thought that there would be adjustable feet on the saw to level it, there isn't (luckily, my floor is level there.) One last rant, While I love that Bes. fence system, it REALLY could stand to have a micro-adjustment thumb screw. Other that those three things, the unit is great and I can't wait to make something with it today! I do have one question... The saw is 230v. So when I pour my concrete, I ran a 230v line to the place where the table saw it, no problem there. However, the saw I had been using is 120v. So I used the other leg of the line for an outlet at the table saw (on a separate breaker of course.) It was REALLY convenient. So, I was wondering, is there any appropriate way to split a 120 circuit off of a 230 leg, and if so, how? Let me know if I'm not being clear enough with my question. TIA Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From eric at megageek.com Wed Jul 1 04:21:53 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 06:21:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Concrete cure time Message-ID: quick question, what is the cure time for concrete before you can drill and put expansion anchors in it? I poured two small pads last week and I want to mount the buoys on them, but I don't know how long i should wait. Some sources tell me 72 hours, some say 7 days, and other say 28 days. This isn't structural or anything, just a level pad to hold buoys. Any ideas? TIA Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From strovato at optonline.net Wed Jul 1 07:21:09 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:21:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) Message-ID: <0KM300IIAUF8TQC0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Things like electric clothes dryers do this all the time. The big heating coils are 240V, but the light and electronics are 120V. It is easy, IF you ran a neutral when you did the wiring. Wiring across the two "hot" wires gives you the 240, wiring from either one to the neutral gives you 120. Now, there is also a green or bare ground, intended for safety only. It used to be that appliances would "cheat" and use this as if it was the neutral line for minor loads when there was no neutral line present. This isn't allowed anymore. That's why new dryer outlets are 4 wire, and old ones are 3 wire. So the big question is, did you run a neutral line? Now, for the disclaimer. Nothing seems to generate more hostility than internet discussions on electrical work. I am not an electrician. I have not looked up the latest code, or anything specific to table saw wiring. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 05:42 AM 7/1/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: >So, I was wondering, is there any appropriate way to split a 120 circuit >off of a 230 leg, and if so, how? From eric at megageek.com Wed Jul 1 07:24:58 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:24:58 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: <0KM300IIAUF8TQC0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Steve, Thanks for the quick response. I ran a 3 conductor line to the saw (red, black, and white) with a bare ground wire as well. mechanically, I understand how I can get the 120 outlet, but I don't understand, if it's safe. and if it is, how do I breaker the wire? (do I use a common single breaker for 240 or do i use 2X 120 breakers?) Also, is there a "better way" to do it (the 120 outlet after the 240, or the 240 after the 120?) Thanks again for any help. Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. Steven Trovato 07/01/2009 09:06 To eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) Things like electric clothes dryers do this all the time. The big heating coils are 240V, but the light and electronics are 120V. It is easy, IF you ran a neutral when you did the wiring. Wiring across the two "hot" wires gives you the 240, wiring from either one to the neutral gives you 120. Now, there is also a green or bare ground, intended for safety only. It used to be that appliances would "cheat" and use this as if it was the neutral line for minor loads when there was no neutral line present. This isn't allowed anymore. That's why new dryer outlets are 4 wire, and old ones are 3 wire. So the big question is, did you run a neutral line? Now, for the disclaimer. Nothing seems to generate more hostility than internet discussions on electrical work. I am not an electrician. I have not looked up the latest code, or anything specific to table saw wiring. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 05:42 AM 7/1/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: >So, I was wondering, is there any appropriate way to split a 120 circuit >off of a 230 leg, and if so, how? From mark at sccaprepared.com Wed Jul 1 07:56:01 2009 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: > Thanks for the quick response. > > I ran a 3 conductor line to the saw (red, black, and white) with a bare > ground wire as well. If this is for a 220/230/240 single phase line and its wired correctly, the red and black are hot (each side of the split phase or whatever you want to call it :-), the white is the neutral for 120vac loads, and the bare wire is the safety ground. You'd wire your 220vac saw to the red & black to get the 220vac. You'd wire a regular 110vac load to either the red/white or the black/white to get the 110vac from one or the other of the split phases. You'd wire the safety ground to the chassis in both cases. This is, AFAIK (and I'm not an electrician, so you get what you pay for) completely within the spec & intent of the all the codes. Its how dryers & electric stoves work, etc. > mechanically, I understand how I can get the 120 outlet, but I don't > understand, if it's safe. and if it is, how do I breaker the wire? > (do I use a common single breaker for 240 or do i use 2X 120 breakers?) I don't know the code here, but I would think either would work fine. I imagine a common single breaker is really two breakers inside anyway, one for each split phase. > Also, is there a "better way" to do it (the 120 outlet after the 240, or > the 240 after the 120?) Electrically it shouldn't matter at all, except maybe if you use GFCI 110vac outlets? If you wanted GFCI outlets, I'd put them after the saw, but I have no idea if that's required. Mark From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 08:25:31 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:25:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d40907010725hf711087l3eec4e50ebaf5a58@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, eric at megageek.com wrote: >> >> Thanks for the quick response. >> >> I ran a 3 conductor line to the saw (red, black, and white) with a bare >> ground wire as well. > > If this is for a 220/230/240 single phase line and its wired correctly, the > red and black are hot (each side of the split phase or whatever you want to > call it :-), the white is the neutral for 120vac loads, and the bare wire is > the safety ground. > > You'd wire your 220vac saw to the red & black to get the 220vac. B You'd wire > a regular 110vac load to either the red/white or the black/white to get the > 110vac from one or the other of the split phases. B You'd wire the safety > ground to the chassis in both cases. > > This is, AFAIK (and I'm not an electrician, so you get what you pay for) > completely within the spec & intent of the all the codes. B Its how dryers & > electric stoves work, etc. > >> mechanically, I understand how I can get the 120 outlet, but I don't >> understand, if it's safe. B and if it is, how do I breaker the wire? (do I >> use a common single breaker for 240 or do i use 2X 120 breakers?) > > I don't know the code here, but I would think either would work fine. B I > imagine a common single breaker is really two breakers inside anyway, one > for each split phase. > Check your local code. This is allowed by the NEC, and it requires either a double pole breaker, or the two handles of single pole breakers to be mechanically tied together (So half the 240 outlet isn't hot.); however, many local jurisdictions don't allow it, or allow it only under limited circumstances. I don't know what people have against it: it's how your house is wired, after all! >> Also, is there a "better way" to do it (the 120 outlet after the 240, or >> the 240 after the 120?) > > Electrically it shouldn't matter at all, except maybe if you use GFCI 110vac > outlets? B If you wanted GFCI outlets, I'd put them after the saw, but I have > no idea if that's required. Almost certainly is. Options are a 240 GFI breaker ($$$), a regular 240 breaker, followed by the saw outlet, followed by a gfci outlet on each 120V leg. (or just one, if that's what you really want.) It's possible your local code requires GFCI on 240 outlets, too, so you'd have to use a breaker to do this. (I think; haven't really thought that hard about it.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 1 09:09:58 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:09:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40907010725hf711087l3eec4e50ebaf5a58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090701150957827.CEMI19903@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> > Check your local code. This is allowed by the NEC, and it requires > either a double pole breaker, or the two handles of single pole > breakers to be mechanically tied together (So half the 240 outlet > isn't hot.); however, many local jurisdictions don't allow it, or > allow it only under limited circumstances. I missed something here, David. Are you saying that split-phase is illegal in some places? Or is it linking two single-pole breakers (which after all is what is inside a double pole breaker) that is not allowed? > Almost certainly is. Options are a 240 GFI breaker ($$$), There's someone selling them on flea-bay for $70-$80. Eg, item 220442509069. In fact I should probably pick one up for my pool pump. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 1 09:26:03 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:26:03 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: <0KM300IIAUF8TQC0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20090701152603292.LKAH26680@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> > Now, for the disclaimer. Nothing seems to generate more hostility > than internet discussions on electrical work. Hey, I want to apologize if anything I've posted recently came across as hostility. I certainly did not mean it that way! Randall From opposumking at verizon.net Wed Jul 1 09:40:04 2009 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:40:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) References: <20090701150957827.CEMI19903@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c9fa62$34dabfe0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> I'd be real leery of a super cheap GFI breaker off of e-bay. I've seen far too many junk breakers or knockoffs on the market. They don't trip. I've even watched some just sit there and burn in the panel box. Those were some fake Square D breakers. >> Almost certainly is. Options are a 240 GFI breaker ($$$), > > There's someone selling them on flea-bay for $70-$80. Eg, item > 220442509069. In fact I should probably pick one up for my pool pump. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 09:41:33 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:41:33 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: <20090701150957827.CEMI19903@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> References: <2400a5d40907010725hf711087l3eec4e50ebaf5a58@mail.gmail.com> <20090701150957827.CEMI19903@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907010841i24bf1396s770cea91c020532e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Randall wrote: >> Check your local code. B This is allowed by the NEC, and it requires >> either a double pole breaker, or the two handles of single pole >> breakers to be mechanically tied together (So half the 240 outlet >> isn't hot.); however, many local jurisdictions don't allow it, or >> allow it only under limited circumstances. > > I missed something here, David. B Are you saying that split-phase is illegal > in some places? B Or is it linking two single-pole breakers (which after all > is what is inside a double pole breaker) that is not allowed? > Split phase. Some places also prohibit more than one receptacle on a 240 circuit. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From cak at dimebank.com Wed Jul 1 10:26:21 2009 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) Message-ID: <200907011626.n61GQLnJ011825@moose.dimebank.com> > Some places also prohibit more than one receptacle on a > 240 circuit. Yeah - I ran into that. I mostly ignored it. I never have more than one thing plugged into a 240 circuit, but I like to be able to move things. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 1 10:28:47 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:28:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: <000701c9fa62$34dabfe0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> References: <20090701150957827.CEMI19903@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> <000701c9fa62$34dabfe0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <94559D8D7A204EDA92885E9116A7FD7E@jdnet.deere.com> > I've > even watched some just sit there and burn in the panel box. Those were > some > fake Square D breakers. There were (also?) some 'real' Square-D breakers that would do that; http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/Federal_Pioneer_Square_D_AFCI_Notice.pdf as well as Federal Pacific: http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm Guess what I found my house was wired with; replete with a small fire where a clamp had not been properly tightened. Anyone want to buy a lightly-used Federal Pacific box & breakers? -- Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 1 10:34:54 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:34:54 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Concrete cure time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > quick question, what is the cure time for concrete before you can drill > and put expansion anchors in it? I believe the correct answer is "it depends". But 3 days is likely fine, if you aren't going to be putting much load on the anchors. 28 days is the curing time to reach rated strength. -- Randall From strovato at optonline.net Wed Jul 1 21:19:31 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:19:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Table saw, (it's here.) In-Reply-To: <20090701152603292.LKAH26680@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> References: <0KM300IIAUF8TQC0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20090701152603292.LKAH26680@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <0KM40008IX8NRMI0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> No, not you at all. This has been downright civil! I'm just thinking back to some previous interactions, not on this list. I think the problem is that the electrical code is difficult to understand and often not intuitive. Some people have the attitude that you should generally follow the rules (like me). Other people think that as long as the light lights or the motor turns, that's good enough no matter what some bureaucrat says. Combine that with the fact that there is real danger in this work. If you are debating baking, what's the worst that can happen, a really bad cake? Mistakes in electric work can be deadly. I think that one should either follow the rules, or know and understand the rules well enough to consciously decide something different. I can show you a delightful thread in which someone wants to splice their electric clothes dryer cord to make it longer. Then wrap it all up in electrical tape and it's good to go! Leave that nice 220 splice back behind the washer and dryer, nothing ever gets wet back there, right? And besides, they already did it and they have no intention of changing it no matter what anyone says. Anyway, that's where I was coming from. Your comments have been no problem, to me anyway. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 11:26 AM 7/1/2009, Randall wrote: > > Now, for the disclaimer. Nothing seems to generate more hostility > > than internet discussions on electrical work. > >Hey, I want to apologize if anything I've posted recently came across as >hostility. I certainly did not mean it that way! From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 2 16:19:17 2009 From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] barn cats Message-ID: <202899.37348.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has any one out there figured out a way to give a barn cat access to the inside of your barn, to eat sleep and shower and oh yeah keep the rats and mice under control, but not allow the raccoons opossums or skunks to get in? Thanks for the help. Frank V. rustymetal at sbcglobal.net From cavanadd at verizon.net Thu Jul 2 16:34:58 2009 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:34:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] barn cats In-Reply-To: <202899.37348.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <202899.37348.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4D3612.5030006@verizon.net> An automatic pet door will work: > http://www.americas-pet-store.com/details/prodid/546.html but the cat has to wear a collar to activate it. Dave Frank Vantacich wrote: > Has any one out there figured out a way to give a barn cat access to the > inside of your barn, to eat sleep and shower and oh yeah keep the rats and > mice under control, but not allow the raccoons opossums or skunks to get > in? > > Thanks for the help. > > Frank V. > rustymetal at sbcglobal.net > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From eltonclark at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 16:57:15 2009 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:57:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] barn cats In-Reply-To: <4A4D3612.5030006@verizon.net> References: <202899.37348.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A4D3612.5030006@verizon.net> Message-ID: *You need an upgrade to a barn-puma.* *Tony* > > > > Frank Vantacich wrote: > >> Has any one out there figured out a way to give a barn cat access to the >> inside of your barn, to eat sleep and shower and oh yeah keep the rats and >> mice under control, but not allow the raccoons opossums or skunks to get >> in? >> >> Thanks for the help. >> >> Frank V. >> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive >> > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From ericm at lne.com Thu Jul 2 17:31:25 2009 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 16:31:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] barn cats In-Reply-To: <202899.37348.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <202899.37348.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090702233125.GB9521@slack.lne.com> On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 03:19:17PM -0700, Frank Vantacich wrote: > Has any one out there figured out a way to give a barn cat access to the > inside of your barn, to eat sleep and shower and oh yeah keep the rats and > mice under control, but not allow the raccoons opossums or skunks to get > in? I opened a window on my garage just wide enough for the cat to get through. Most of the opening is blocked off with a small sheet of plywood leaving just enough of a hole for the cat. She has to jump up of course but there is a workbench on the other side of the window that we leave clear so she's got a landing spot. It's been that way for five years and I haven't seen any coons in there. I don't think we get possums up here and skunks are rare. But we have had quite a coon problem at times. I think I had to show it to her once, after that she got it. She likes to come in when I am in the garage, visit me then go check the attic for critters. Eric From eric at megageek.com Thu Jul 2 20:09:10 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 22:09:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] barn cats In-Reply-To: <202899.37348.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Something like this... http://www.smarthome.com/6191C/Infrared-Locking-Cat-Door/p.aspx (note, there are many different variations on the locking pet door.) Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. Frank Vantacich Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 07/02/2009 18:06 To Shop Talk cc Subject [Shop-talk] barn cats Has any one out there figured out a way to give a barn cat access to the inside of your barn, to eat sleep and shower and oh yeah keep the rats and mice under control, but not allow the raccoons opossums or skunks to get in? Thanks for the help. Frank V. rustymetal at sbcglobal.net You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From lee at automate-it.com Mon Jul 6 14:35:42 2009 From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:35:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car Message-ID: <3540.192.246.38.159.1246912542.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Just got a couple of photos from my son as he passed through Geneva. He asked me what this car was, but I can't ID it. Any ideas? --- See photos here: http://www.automate-it.com/photos/car.html Shop-talk content: If this car was a kit-car, I would build it in my shop... THANKS!! Lee From arvidj at visi.com Mon Jul 6 15:01:03 2009 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:01:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car References: <3540.192.246.38.159.1246912542.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Message-ID: I don't speak or read German so for all I know this web site could be saying "Here are pictures of a car that we think is cool but we do not know who makes it", but I would give this a shot. http://www.daehler.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Daniels" To: Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:35 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car > Just got a couple of photos from my son as he passed through Geneva. He > asked > me what this car was, but I can't ID it. Any ideas? --- > See photos here: > http://www.automate-it.com/photos/car.html > > Shop-talk content: If this car was a kit-car, I would build it in my > shop... > > THANKS!! > Lee > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as arvidj at visi.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From cyberlaw at earthlink.net Mon Jul 6 15:13:10 2009 From: cyberlaw at earthlink.net (Steven T. Ekstrand) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:13:10 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car In-Reply-To: References: <3540.192.246.38.159.1246912542.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Message-ID: <4A5268E6.2000106@earthlink.net> http://www.wiesmann.com/en/models/roadster_mf4 Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I don't speak or read German so for all I know this web site could be > saying "Here are pictures of a car that we think is cool but we do not > know who makes it", but I would give this a shot. > > http://www.daehler.com/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Daniels" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:35 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car From koblinger at verizon.net Mon Jul 6 15:14:35 2009 From: koblinger at verizon.net (koblinger at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:14:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car Message-ID: <549816049.879516.1246914875256.JavaMail.root@vms246.mailsrvcs.net> From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 15:15:01 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 17:15:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car In-Reply-To: References: <3540.192.246.38.159.1246912542.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907061415l78111740g9d97d62b6ab7b2a9@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I don't speak or read German so for all I know this web site could be saying > "Here are pictures of a car that we think is cool but we do not know who > makes it", but I would give this a shot. > > http://www.daehler.com/ Dahler are a BMW customizer and modifier, so it's quite possible they're responsible for the body work. The underlying car is would be some sort of BMW. (though, there might not be too much left.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From lee at automate-it.com Mon Jul 6 15:17:55 2009 From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:17:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] help with unknown car In-Reply-To: <3540.192.246.38.159.1246912542.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> References: <3540.192.246.38.159.1246912542.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Message-ID: <3933.192.246.38.159.1246915075.squirrel@www.automate-it.com> Geez - there's no element of suspense here! Within 20 minutes of my question, I've got photos, a web site and a complete pdf of the brochure. Great stuff, guys. Next time I'll see if I can actually stump someone... > http://www.wiesmann-auto-sport.de/eroastart.html > > http://www.wiesmann-auto-sport.de/downloads/32_Seiter/Roadster_MF3_DE32.pdf > - Lee From peterwmurray at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 20:02:54 2009 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:02:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 3 season porch In-Reply-To: <0E19124E2E3A456CB18A760A124E010E@Fest> References: <0E19124E2E3A456CB18A760A124E010E@Fest> Message-ID: Might you be able to get a local window-replacement contractor to give you (for low- or no-cost) replaced windows from one of their clients? It would make their "disposal" of the pulled windows cheaper... Of course, you'd likely have to be a bit more flexible with regards to window size... -Peter (slowly catching up on his shop-talk) -- Peter Murray (N3IXY) Oak Hill, VA On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote: > Anyone ever enclosed their porch with any of the newer products that snap (at > least in their advertisement) in place. We have a real nice porch on our > house that use to be screened in. I've priced out windows and they're > rediculous price wise. Anyone have any suggestions ?? We'd like to use in for > 3 seasons at least. > Thanks, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as peterwmurray at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From eric at megageek.com Wed Jul 8 03:47:02 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 05:47:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Navigational buoys Message-ID: As promised for those of you with more time than needed, here are the pictures of the completed buoys... http://www.megageek.com/photoalbums/NavigationalBuoys/index.html Note, I used one for my house number and one for my neighbors. Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From mbarre at juno.com Wed Jul 8 04:45:11 2009 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:45:11 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Navigational buoys Message-ID: <20090708.064511.3539.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> Nicely done Inch! No better way to come home than to turn into your own channel! MRB ---------- Original Message ---------- From: eric at megageek.com To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Navigational buoys Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 05:47:02 -0400 As promised for those of you with more time than needed, here are the pictures of the completed buoys... http://www.megageek.com/photoalbums/NavigationalBuoys/index.html Note, I used one for my house number and one for my neighbors. Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive ____________________________________________________________ Save money by getting out of debt the right way. Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTFHXfK5KLjyMeHSniEZYJ35PTli NciLiD9DJttgR1bAvNp7lSydaQ/ From eric at megageek.com Wed Jul 8 04:35:04 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 06:35:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Navigational buoys In-Reply-To: <20090708.064511.3539.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the encouragement. They are also lit for night time! (Now, I just need to make a circuit so they flasher like a real buoy.) Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. "Matt" 07/08/2009 06:32 To eric at megageek.com cc shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Navigational buoys Nicely done Inch! No better way to come home than to turn into your own channel! MRB ---------- Original Message ---------- From: eric at megageek.com To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Shop-talk] Navigational buoys Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 05:47:02 -0400 As promised for those of you with more time than needed, here are the pictures of the completed buoys... http://www.megageek.com/photoalbums/NavigationalBuoys/index.html Note, I used one for my house number and one for my neighbors. Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive ____________________________________________________________ Save money by getting out of debt the right way. Click here! From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 9 09:39:44 2009 From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 08:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch Message-ID: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I made a hinged wooden stair case to get in to the loft of my new barn and am in need of a 110vac winch to hoist it up out of the way so I can drive through to the other half of my barn. I originally bought a cheapy winch, about $70.00, that lasted about a year but it has since stopped working in one direction. It will let the stair case down but it will not even try to hoist it back up. It may be repairable, I have not taken it a part yet. If I can't repair it does any one recommend a replacement winch they've had good luck with? I'd be willing to spend about $125.00. I've checked out a few web sites including Northern Tools but they're a little high. The stair case weighs probably 200lbs and needs to be hoisted up about 10ft. Thanks for the help. Frank V. rustymetal at sbcglobal.net From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Jul 9 10:13:22 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:13:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My luck with cheap winches is similar, so I can't offer any help there, but I'd be a bit worried about the safety aspect, particularly with just any cheap winch (and the cheap cable that comes with it) holding a heavy load while people and vehicles pass under it. Some are rated for lifting, others only for pulling - I believe the difference is in the quality and security (or even the existence) of the brake. My garage attic staircase (less than 100 pounds, but the same principle) works easily by hand thanks to a balance weight and pulley we installed decades ago. Just pull it down and push it back up. Instead of a pull rope I have a length of conduit which hangs down to allow pulling or puching the stairway. For additional safety we arranged it so the conduit push-handle can be locked against the wall as a brace to jam the door closed, but I've of neglected to use that feature for many years. Karl >I made a hinged wooden stair case to get in to the loft of my new barn and >am > in need of a 110vac winch to hoist it up out of the way so I can drive > through > to the other half of my barn. > I've checked out a few > web sites including Northern Tools but they're a little high. The stair > case > weighs probably 200lbs and needs to be hoisted up about 10ft. > > Thanks for the help. > > Frank V. > rustymetal at sbcglobal.net From strovato at optonline.net Thu Jul 9 10:42:56 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 12:42:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch In-Reply-To: References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0KMI00658X62SZN0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I think you'll find the things intended for lifting straight up are referred to as "hoists". That does not mean the manufacturer's legal dept considers them safe for hanging heavy things over your head. At 12:13 PM 7/9/2009, Karl Vacek wrote: >My luck with cheap winches is similar, so I can't offer any help >there, but I'd be a bit worried about the safety aspect, >particularly with just any cheap winch (and the cheap cable that >comes with it) holding a heavy load while people and vehicles pass >under it. Some are rated for lifting, others only for pulling - I >believe the difference is in the quality and security (or even the >existence) of the brake. From trevor at boicey.com Thu Jul 9 11:54:30 2009 From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:54:30 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch In-Reply-To: <0KMI00658X62SZN0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0KMI00658X62SZN0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4A562ED6.4010003@boicey.com> Steven Trovato wrote: > I think you'll find the things intended for lifting straight up are > referred to as "hoists". That does not mean the manufacturer's legal > dept considers them safe for hanging heavy things over your head. A common alternative around here for dry boathouses is a 12V winch with a car battery and a float charger. You can get a lot more torque out of them, and as long as you don't raise and lower it 20 times in a row, the float charger keeps it ready all year. From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Jul 9 15:02:10 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:02:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com><0KMI00658X62SZN0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4A562ED6.4010003@boicey.com> Message-ID: <68288FC60ACA4B0FAFD9034A1CCFFBB0@KARL> Exactly what I use at the hangar to pull the Stearman back in. 12V winches are much cheaper than 120V ones and an old battery on a BatteryMinder seems to last forever in this use. My comments on the lifting vs pulling were mostly related to Harbor Freight who seems to use the same winch term for both types. Personally, hoist means "chain hoist" or "chain fall" to me. Karl >> I think you'll find the things intended for lifting straight up are >> referred to as "hoists". That does not mean the manufacturer's legal >> dept considers them safe for hanging heavy things over your head. > > A common alternative around here for dry boathouses is a 12V winch with > a car battery and a float charger. > > You can get a lot more torque out of them, and as long as you don't > raise and lower it 20 times in a row, the float charger keeps it ready all > yea From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 10 13:32:24 2009 From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch Thank you all Message-ID: <724892.16269.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I want to thank everyone that responeded to my post on 110v winches. Whether I go with a 12v or 110v winch I will most likely incorporate a snatch block this time around. Frank V. rustymetal at sbcglobal.net --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Karl Vacek wrote: From: Karl Vacek Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch To: "Shop Talk" Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:02 PM Exactly what I use at the hangar to pull the Stearman back in. 12V winches are much cheaper than 120V ones and an old battery on a BatteryMinder seems to last forever in this use. My comments on the lifting vs pulling were mostly related to Harbor Freight who seems to use the same winch term for both types. Personally, hoist means "chain hoist" or "chain fall" to me. Karl >> I think you'll find the things intended for lifting straight up are referred to as "hoists". That does not mean the manufacturer's legal dept considers them safe for hanging heavy things over your head. > > A common alternative around here for dry boathouses is a 12V winch with a car battery and a float charger. > > You can get a lot more torque out of them, and as long as you don't raise and lower it 20 times in a row, the float charger keeps it ready all yea You are subscribed as rustymetal at sbcglobal.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Jul 11 07:13:12 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 08:13:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0KMI00658X62SZN0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: I was WRONG about HF calling them all winches. Just went through a current HF catalog and sure enough they have hoists and winches. The hoists obviously look like they're intended to be mounted to lift, while the winches look like winches. Also, they now don't have the warning they used to include about pulling vs lifting. Sorry for the misinformation I put out, and thanks, Steven, for teaching me about that !! Karl >I think you'll find the things intended for lifting straight up are >referred to as "hoists". That does not mean the manufacturer's legal dept >considers them safe for hanging heavy things over your head. > > At 12:13 PM 7/9/2009, Karl Vacek wrote: >>My luck with cheap winches is similar, so I can't offer any help there, >>but I'd be a bit worried about the safety aspect, particularly with just >>any cheap winch (and the cheap cable that comes with it) holding a heavy >>load while people and vehicles pass under it. Some are rated for lifting, >>others only for pulling - I believe the difference is in the quality and >>security (or even the existence) of the brake. From strovato at optonline.net Sat Jul 11 08:08:23 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:08:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch In-Reply-To: References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0KMI00658X62SZN0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0KMM00K6TFB3VO00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> No problem, Karl. I wasn't trying to be the vocabulary police. It's just that sometimes using a different term can get you closer to what you want when doing Google searches. -Steve At 09:13 AM 7/11/2009, Karl Vacek wrote: >I was WRONG about HF calling them all winches. Just went through a >current HF catalog and sure enough they have hoists and >winches. The hoists obviously look like they're intended to be >mounted to lift, while the winches look like winches. Also, they >now don't have the warning they used to include about pulling vs lifting. > >Sorry for the misinformation I put out, and thanks, Steven, for >teaching me about that !! > >Karl From eric at megageek.com Sat Jul 11 19:51:05 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:51:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery Message-ID: Ok, I got a free dive light in a weird set of circumstances. The dive light doesn't have the charger with it however. It uses rechargeable nicad battery pack (9.6v 4.4Ah) Here are my questions... Can I hook a normal dc power supply to this (a 9.6v one?) If I can, do I use one rated for which amperage? Also, if I can't find one for 9.6v, will 9v work as well? Problem is that the charger is pretty expensive, and I have no idea if the battery pack is good. If it isn't, the price of the charger and new battery pack is almost as much as a new light (which I would prefer.) But if I can use a normal power pack, I could recharge the battery to at least see if it is any good. TIA Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Jul 11 20:12:04 2009 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:12:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83E1008CF9BB43E7AFAE89169C24DE3E@EricJRussellPC> Sounds like the worst case scenario is you get the new dive light if either the battery is no good or the wrong charger ruins it. Perhaps hook up the charger outside and plug it in from a safe distance just in case... Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > Ok, I got a free dive light in a weird set of circumstances. > Problem is that the charger is pretty expensive, and I have no idea if the > battery pack is good. If it isn't, the price of the charger and new > battery pack is almost as much as a new light (which I would prefer.) > > But if I can use a normal power pack, I could recharge the battery to at > least see if it is any good. From bn1 at pacbell.net Sat Jul 11 21:38:15 2009 From: bn1 at pacbell.net (Mr. Bill) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:38:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grandfather clock. Message-ID: <4A595AA7.4040501@pacbell.net> Listers, I recently inherited a 7' grandfather clock and moved it from safe country down to earthquake prone So. Cal. The three weights are ~ 12 #'s each so it is extremely top-heavy when "wound" and they are at the top. I know it needs to be attached to the wall but am not sure how. Should I use a L bracket and mount it solidly or maybe use a cable so it has a little movement? Spring? Second question: When the front door is opened, it has an extremely acrid musty odor. Baking soda seems to do nothing. I hesitate to use anything with its own smell for fear of impregnating (Now, now, no puns please!) the beautiful Pennsylvania Cedar. Any ideas? TIA, Bill Barnett Santa Ana, CA From gsteve at hammatt.com Sat Jul 11 21:49:57 2009 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:49:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grandfather clock. In-Reply-To: <4A595AA7.4040501@pacbell.net> References: <4A595AA7.4040501@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5CF69DC6893242D3B5FD044318FC6B3B@DesktopPC> We inherited Grandmother's 6' clock and moved it from Anaheim to NW Washington State. We contacted a professional and he told us how to package everything when we moved it up here. More importantly, we had him go through the clock before we started using it in our home. It was in desperate need of cleaning and lubrication. We are pleased with our decision to go this route. He also was very helpful and answered our questions about how to take care of this item. You may want to consider this option. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr. Bill" To: "Shop talk" Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:38 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Grandfather clock. > Listers, > > I recently inherited a 7' grandfather clock and moved it from safe > country down to earthquake prone So. Cal. The three weights are ~ > 12 > #'s each so it is extremely top-heavy when "wound" and they are at > the > top. I know it needs to be attached to the wall but am not sure > how. > Should I use a L bracket and mount it solidly or maybe use a cable > so it > has a little movement? Spring? > > Second question: When the front door is opened, it has an extremely > acrid musty odor. Baking soda seems to do nothing. I hesitate to > use > anything with its own smell for fear of impregnating (Now, now, no > puns > please!) the beautiful Pennsylvania Cedar. Any ideas? > > TIA, > > Bill Barnett > Santa Ana, CA From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Jul 11 22:36:03 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery Message-ID: <30335.46036.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A few years ago I bought a universal battery charger/cycler, and it has turned out to be very handy. It is meant for R/C airplanes and cars, and will properly change pretty much any size Nicad, NiMh, or Lithium battery pack, with all sorts of adjustable parameters. It also measures and tells you the actual battery capacity. These gadgets cost about a hundred bucks. You gcan get one from any big hobby store or a place like towerhobbies.com. Doug --- On Sat, 7/11/09, eric at megageek.com wrote: > From: eric at megageek.com > Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery > To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net > Date: Saturday, July 11, 2009, 9:51 PM > Ok, I got a free dive light in a > weird set of circumstances. > > The dive light doesn't have the charger with it > however. It uses > rechargeable nicad battery pack (9.6v 4.4Ah) > > Here are my questions... > > Can I hook a normal dc power supply to this (a 9.6v one?) > > If I can, do I use one rated for which amperage? > > Also, if I can't find one for 9.6v, will 9v work as well? > > > Problem is that the charger is pretty expensive, and I have > no idea if the > battery pack is good. If it isn't, the price of the > charger and new > battery pack is almost as much as a new light (which I > would prefer.) > > But if I can use a normal power pack, I could recharge the > battery to at > least see if it is any good. > > TIA > > > > Moose > Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the > Great. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jul 11 22:36:08 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:36:08 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090712043608719.TKRL2041@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> > Here are my questions... > > Can I hook a normal dc power supply to this (a 9.6v one?) A 'normal' DC supply can be made to work, but I think you'll need a slightly higher, regulated voltage; plus some way to limit the current. A good rule of thumb when you don't know the battery details is to limit the charging current to about 10% of the estimated battery capacity. So, for example, if each cell is about the volume of an ordinary D-cell flashlight battery, you can assume it's rated for 3000 mAH, and charge it at 300 mA or less. Then charge it for at least 14 hours or so (overnight), and up to a day (or until the pack starts feeling warm to the touch). If you have a regulated 12v supply handy, an 8 ohm, 1 watt (or more) resistor will do for limiting the current. Randall From bobkegel at seanet.com Sun Jul 12 01:36:30 2009 From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:36:30 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grandfather clock. In-Reply-To: <4A595AA7.4040501@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4E17B9AD6E7044838AFFDC49164B5174@8sv5f01> I've got a similar clock. It's attached to the wall with a molly screw through the back of the case, near the top. There's a spacer for about an inch of standoff from the wall. The clock has been in place for 35+ years and has come through several small quakes. Bob Kegel Aberdeen, WA From jibjib at att.net Mon Jul 13 05:54:51 2009 From: jibjib at att.net (jibjib at att.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:54:51 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery In-Reply-To: <83E1008CF9BB43E7AFAE89169C24DE3E@EricJRussellPC> References: <83E1008CF9BB43E7AFAE89169C24DE3E@EricJRussellPC> Message-ID: <071320091154.27917.4A5B208A000C58D800006D0D22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF0ECC9D9B@att.net> We fly RC planes and use a lot of small wall wart chargers. You can safely use a charger rated for the full voltage of the battery (or a little bit more) and no more than 1/10 the current. It will take some time to charge; 20% more time than simple division would suggest, due to inefficiencies in the charging process. A 1000 mA battery, charged with a 100 mA charger would take (1000/100) or 10 hours to charge. Add 20%, so it "should" charge in about 12 hours. With a 1/10 rated charger however, you can let it trickle charge for a while after the "rated" charging period without risking any damage to the battery. When the battery is fully charged you may notice that it gets slightly warm. This is because the charger puts out (somewhat) constant energy and since the battery is no longer taking a charge, it heats up to dissapate the energy. These are all general rules and varying the amps, voltage, etc., by small amounts will not greatly affect the results, but try to stay close. Also, NiCads, unlike many other batteries, have no issue and may benefit from a very occassional, full and complete discharge. Jack > > Ok, I got a free dive light in a weird set of circumstances. > > > Problem is that the charger is pretty expensive, and I have no idea if the > > battery pack is good. If it isn't, the price of the charger and new > > battery pack is almost as much as a new light (which I would prefer.) > > > > But if I can use a normal power pack, I could recharge the battery to at > > least see if it is any good. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Jul 13 06:41:21 2009 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Grandfather clock. In-Reply-To: <4A595AA7.4040501@pacbell.net> References: <4A595AA7.4040501@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, 11 Jul 2009, Mr. Bill wrote: > I recently inherited a 7' grandfather clock and moved it from safe > country down to earthquake prone So. Cal. The three weights are ~ 12 > #'s each so it is extremely top-heavy when "wound" and they are at the > top. I know it needs to be attached to the wall but am not sure how. > Should I use a L bracket and mount it solidly or maybe use a cable so it > has a little movement? Spring? I can't think of any reason why a solid mount wouldn't be fine... It may possibly transmit sound more to the wall when the chimes ring, but shouldn't matter otherwise. > Second question: When the front door is opened, it has an extremely > acrid musty odor. Baking soda seems to do nothing. I hesitate to use > anything with its own smell for fear of impregnating (Now, now, no puns > please!) the beautiful Pennsylvania Cedar. Any ideas? No clue on this one, unfortunately. I'll echo the previous poster about paying a pro to come clean/lube the clock... In our case it was so dirty and worn (20 year old clock, probably never cleaned / serviced in that entire time) that the whole movement/ guts needed to be replaced. None of what he did in terms of cleaning or replacing stuff was particularly hard, but it did look like a little experience went a long way. Mark From strovato at optonline.net Mon Jul 13 08:50:47 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:50:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch In-Reply-To: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0KMQ002PD6LF1ZH0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I don't know where you are on this, but I just ran across a T1500 superwinch at etrailers.com, in the "bargain bin". Check out: http://www.etrailer.com/pc-BB~1215200.htm. This is a 12V winch, so you'd have to do the battery and charger approach. It's $99.95, regularly $159.95. Superwinch is one of the known major winch manufacturers. Should be a step up from the no-name harbor freight offerings. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From jniolon at bham.rr.com Mon Jul 13 12:27:08 2009 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:27:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] checking blower ignition module Message-ID: <49604C58D1754B209A404F980CF53621@niolon> I've got a Craftsman backpack blower... 37.7 cc bought in 1986 (yea, I know) seems that the coil has died...I see no spark using a inline spark checker... is there a way to trouble shoot these sealed ignition modules ??? check resistance ?? what is the gap between the module and the flywheel supposed to be ??? help ?? john "A Free People ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington From ericm at lne.com Mon Jul 13 13:51:42 2009 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:51:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] checking blower ignition module In-Reply-To: <49604C58D1754B209A404F980CF53621@niolon> References: <49604C58D1754B209A404F980CF53621@niolon> Message-ID: <20090713195141.GA18437@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 01:27:08PM -0500, john niolon wrote: > I've got a Craftsman backpack blower... 37.7 cc bought in 1986 (yea, I know) > > seems that the coil has died...I see no spark using a inline spark > checker... is there a way to trouble shoot these sealed ignition modules ??? > check resistance ?? what is the gap between the module and the flywheel > supposed to be ??? > You can check the coil- make sure that there is not infinite resistance in the primary circuit. Eric From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Jul 13 18:08:07 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery References: <83E1008CF9BB43E7AFAE89169C24DE3E@EricJRussellPC> <071320091154.27917.4A5B208A000C58D800006D0D22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF0ECC9D9B@att.net> Message-ID: > Also, NiCads, unlike many other batteries, have no issue and may benefit > from a very occassional, full and complete discharge. > > Jack This is a little off from Eric's dive light question, but... As an R/C pilot you can't mean that. You have a potentially lethal weapon, and an investment of hundreds (or thousands) of dollars flying around completely dependent upon the health of your radio batteries. If you're referring to completely discharging a nicad back as opposed to one individual cell, DO NOT do it. Maybe one or two complete discharges won't do any noticeable harm, but more than a few will begin to destroy the weakest cell in the pack. As the cells discharge, one reaches 0 volts first, and the current from the others flowing through it as they continue to discharge will reverse-charge that weakest cell, reversing its polarity. Then the second-weakest cell will reach 0 volts and reverse polarity, and so forth, till only one cell is left with any voltage. Do that a few times and you've ruined one or more cells and thus ruined the pack. That's why there are smart chargers and dischargers and expanded-scale voltmeters to monitor the state of charge and discharge of nicad cells and battery packs and exercise them as well. Karl From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Jul 13 18:43:02 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:43:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery In-Reply-To: References: <83E1008CF9BB43E7AFAE89169C24DE3E@EricJRussellPC><071320091154.27917.4A5B208A000C58D800006D0D22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF0ECC9D9B@att.net> Message-ID: <96250FFB58A84290B47C633E55FCF1AE@jdnet.deere.com> > If you're referring to completely discharging a nicad back as opposed to > one > individual cell, DO NOT do it. I agree completely (assuming Karl meant 'pack' instead of 'back'). If you want to run the cells flat (which theoretically is good for them), you have to open the pack and discharge each cell independently. As I recall, you're supposed to follow that with a long, slow "equalizing" charge, something like C/10 for 24 hours. -- Randall From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Jul 14 06:54:38 2009 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:54:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] circuit finder ??? Message-ID: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> I'm trying to locate a run of wire in the middle of a circuit in the house. I could crawl all over the attic raking back insulation to trace it but there has to be a better way for an old man to do this.. I'm looking for a device that will locate a circuit midway in a run of wiring. I've seen what Lowes and H.D. offers with the little plug in thingy and the other part that you use to check each breaker to find which breaker controls that plug... but will this device work by placing the 'wand' along the line between the plug and the breaker ? Seems like it should but before I spend 30-40 bucks and climb in the attic it would be nice to know ?? OR does someone know of a device that does exactly what I'm needing ?? tia John "A Free People ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington From arvidj at visi.com Tue Jul 14 07:19:54 2009 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] circuit finder ??? References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> Message-ID: <5CBCAED886D1442DAD2AA2E2E8A9E258@behavioral.com> I have one of the breaker finders and will check it out Wednesday night unless someone beats me to it. I know it works quite well at finding breakers so I will test it to see how it works on the wiring that goes into the breaker box. Arvid > I'm trying to locate a run of wire in the middle of a circuit in the > house. > I could crawl all over the attic raking back insulation to trace it but > there has to be a better way for an old man to do this.. > > I'm looking for a device that will locate a circuit midway in a run of > wiring. I've seen what Lowes and H.D. offers with the little plug in > thingy > and the other part that you use to check each breaker to find which > breaker > controls that plug... but will this device work by placing the 'wand' > along > the line between the plug and the breaker ? > > Seems like it should but before I spend 30-40 bucks and climb in the attic > it would be nice to know ?? OR does someone know of a device that does > exactly what I'm needing ?? > > tia > John From eric at megageek.com Tue Jul 14 07:16:07 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:16:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery In-Reply-To: <96250FFB58A84290B47C633E55FCF1AE@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: I just wanted to thank everyone who helped with the charging of the battery. Here is the follow on question... Is there a way that I will know when the battery is full? Also, is there a way to "load test" the battery? (so I can see if the battery is any good.) TIA Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jul 14 11:10:01 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:10:01 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] circuit finder ??? In-Reply-To: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> Message-ID: > but will this device work by placing the 'wand' > along > the line between the plug and the breaker ? I've not seen what Lowe's & HD are selling (couldn't find it on their web sites just now either). But I used to work with a similar tool used for finding telephone and network cables; and in general you had to get very close to the wire to hear the tone. Depended on how far from the source you were, of course; but over any useful distance you had to get the probe within 1/4" or better of the wire to hear the tone. In other words, you basically had to touch the probe to the outer jacket, you couldn't just wave it in the general direction of the bundle. Similar to item EC-400011 at http://tinyurl.com/mao5pj -- Randall From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Jul 14 11:52:24 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:52:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] circuit finder ??? In-Reply-To: References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090714134943.01d575d8@cox.net> At 01:10 PM 7/14/2009, Randall wrote: >...But I used to work with a similar tool used for finding telephone and network >cables; and in general you had to get very close to the wire to hear the tone. >.... Similar to item EC-400011 at >http://tinyurl.com/mao5pj If you look at the offerings on the above link, you'll see ONLY one unit: CP117 AutoTrack Circuit Tracer says it's rated for 90-400 VAC. None of the other units say that. I was looking for electrical specifications of the telephone toners, and couldn't find any, but I'm pretty sure they are NOT rated of use with a live 120V circuit. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From obaa996 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 14 12:15:21 2009 From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 181 Message-ID: <487836.11583.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have no idea how well this works, but I've been tempted to get one myself for tracing some speaker wires buried in the walls. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94181 They have an alternative one which plugs into outlets. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96934 >I'm trying to locate a run of wire in the middle of a circuit in the house. >I could crawl all over the attic raking back insulation to trace it but >there has to be a better way for an old man to do this.. >I'm looking for a device that will locate a circuit midway in a run of >wiring. I've seen what Lowes and H.D. offers with the little plug in thingy >and the other part that you use to check each breaker to find which breaker >controls that plug... but will this device work by placing the 'wand' along >the line between the plug and the breaker ? >Seems like it should but before I spend 30-40 bucks and climb in the attic >it would be nice to know ?? OR does someone know of a device that does >exactly what I'm needing ?? From strovato at optonline.net Tue Jul 14 12:19:13 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:19:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> Message-ID: <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have successfully fabricated brake lines and fuel lines out of bundy tubing sold in a coil for this purpose. I can duplicate the curves, but the straight parts never come out really straight. Is there any trick for getting coiled tubing straight? I can make it straight enough to be functional, but not straight enough to look professional. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 12:25:55 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:25:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] circuit finder ??? In-Reply-To: References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907141125s4dc9a80l70bc1bdd0c044890@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Randall wrote: >> but will this device work by placing the 'wand' >> along >> the line between the plug and the breaker ? > > I've not seen what Lowe's & HD are selling (couldn't find it on their web > sites just now either). B But I used to work with a similar tool used for > finding telephone and network cables; and in general you had to get very > close to the wire to hear the tone. B Depended on how far from the source you > were, of course; but over any useful distance you had to get the probe > within 1/4" or better of the wire to hear the tone. B In other words, you > basically had to touch the probe to the outer jacket, you couldn't just wave > it in the general direction of the bundle. B Similar to item EC-400011 at > http://tinyurl.com/mao5pj I have one of the cheapy units that came from Lowes or HD or somewhere like that. It's not rated for use on powered equipment. It's useful at somewhat longer range than that, but not a whole lot. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 12:41:21 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:41:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907141141u7331b31bx25d4c549d7ac9898@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Steven Trovato wrote: > I have successfully fabricated brake lines and fuel lines out of bundy > tubing sold in a coil for this purpose. B I can duplicate the curves, but the > straight parts never come out really straight. B Is there any trick for > getting coiled tubing straight? B I can make it straight enough to be > functional, but not straight enough to look professional. Yeah: buy straight lengths of tube. If htere's another method, I don't know what it is. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Jul 14 12:43:28 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:43:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Soft-jaw pliers Message-ID: Is there a reasonably-priced source of ready-made soft-jaw pliers (or pipe wrenches) ?? Maybe aluminum or brass jaws, maybe something like Delrin or regular Nylon ?? Wrapping tape around things is unsatisfactory in most cases, and making a soft tool every time is a pain. Dipping regular pliers in that plastic-handle dipping stuff sort of works, but I'd really like a few sizes of good, tough, soft-jawed pliers that can't tear up chrome plumbing fittings and the like. So much kitchen and bath stuff is plated plastic nowadays, with crappy Chinese threads, making it even worse. Thanks ! Karl "A Free People ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jul 14 12:47:28 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:47:28 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] circuit finder ??? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090714134943.01d575d8@cox.net> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <6.2.5.6.1.20090714134943.01d575d8@cox.net> Message-ID: <5D2DE064CD204B6BAE804E49A6366F2B@jdnet.deere.com> > I was looking for electrical specifications of > the > telephone toners, and couldn't find any, but I'm pretty sure they are NOT > rated of use with a live 120V circuit. I agree. To use a telephone toner, you would first need to disconnect the power to the circuit you're looking for. -- Randall From jem at milleredp.com Tue Jul 14 12:52:56 2009 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:52:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40907141141u7331b31bx25d4c549d7ac9898@mail.gmail.com> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <2400a5d40907141141u7331b31bx25d4c549d7ac9898@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5CD408.2000006@milleredp.com> > Yeah: buy straight lengths of tube. If htere's another method, I > don't know what it is. I've seen reference to a tool called a 'tubing straightener' but I don't have one and know nothing about them. Another option is to run your lines such that you don't ever need a truly straight length of tubing... John. From strovato at optonline.net Tue Jul 14 17:16:11 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:16:11 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0KMS00LUUOORYKE0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Thanks guys. One example of where this came up is my boat trailer, with hydraulic surge brakes. The line is semi-visible and rather long. What's the longest straight piece you can buy? So anyway, based on your comments, I did a little searching and found this: http://www.brakequip.com/tools_tube_straight.html. Seems like just the thing! Searching further, I found lots of articles describing the cool new device. But virtually no one actually selling it. Finally, I found this place: http://www.southco-ind.com/commerce/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7159 The price they list is $310. Seems like a lot for what it is. -Steve From jem at milleredp.com Tue Jul 14 17:37:19 2009 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:37:19 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: <0KMS00LUUOORYKE0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0KMS00LUUOORYKE0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4A5D16AF.3000302@milleredp.com> > http://www.brakequip.com/tools_tube_straight.html. Seems like just the > thing! Searching further, I found lots of articles describing the cool > new device. But virtually no one actually selling it. Finally, I found > this place: > http://www.southco-ind.com/commerce/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7159 > > The price they list is $310. Seems like a lot for what it is. That's the one I saw, have never seen one in the flesh. I'd really like one, and certainly have use for it, but the price is pretty stiff... John. From mark at bradakis.com Tue Jul 14 19:26:47 2009 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:26:47 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: <4A5D16AF.3000302@milleredp.com> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0KMS00LUUOORYKE0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4A5D16AF.3000302@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <4A5D3057.9010804@bradakis.com> Unrolling coiled tubing by placing it on a flat floor and slowly rolling it out is about the best you can do by hand. mjb. From jibjib at att.net Tue Jul 14 21:18:02 2009 From: jibjib at att.net (jibjib at att.net) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 03:18:02 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery In-Reply-To: References: <83E1008CF9BB43E7AFAE89169C24DE3E@EricJRussellPC> <071320091154.27917.4A5B208A000C58D800006D0D22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF0ECC9D9B@att.net> Message-ID: <071520090318.8354.4A5D4A6A00076713000020A222230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF0ECC9D9B@att.net> Karl, I did say very occassionally and I do not believe that NiCad packs will have an issue with it, especially at the 1/10 C rate I also discussed. I would not do this with NiMH and certainly not any Lithium chemistry. which defnitely require balanced charging or regular balancing. I only use balanced chargers on Lithium cells, but simple 1/10 C charging on everything else. Complete discharging of NiCad (and only NiCad) packs is not an uncommon practice in the RC world. Jack -------------- Original message from "Karl Vacek" : -------------- > > > Also, NiCads, unlike many other batteries, have no issue and may benefit > > from a very occassional, full and complete discharge. > > > > Jack > > > This is a little off from Eric's dive light question, but... > > As an R/C pilot you can't mean that. You have a potentially lethal weapon, > and an investment of hundreds (or thousands) of dollars flying around > completely dependent upon the health of your radio batteries. > > If you're referring to completely discharging a nicad back as opposed to one > individual cell, DO NOT do it. > > Maybe one or two complete discharges won't do any noticeable harm, but more > than a few will begin to destroy the weakest cell in the pack. As the cells > discharge, one reaches 0 volts first, and the current from the others > flowing through it as they continue to discharge will reverse-charge that > weakest cell, reversing its polarity. Then the second-weakest cell will > reach 0 volts and reverse polarity, and so forth, till only one cell is left > with any voltage. > > Do that a few times and you've ruined one or more cells and thus ruined the > pack. That's why there are smart chargers and dischargers and > expanded-scale voltmeters to monitor the state of charge and discharge of > nicad cells and battery packs and exercise them as well. > > Karl From paul.mele at usermail.com Tue Jul 14 21:29:47 2009 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:29:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: <0KMS00LUUOORYKE0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0KMS00LUUOORYKE0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <009101ca04fc$81824b70$8486e250$@mele@usermail.com> ...but you do SAVE 13%.... >>> The price they list is $310. Seems like a lot for what it is. <<< I've used straight pipe, unions, and a bender for the curves; the separate pieces make the project easier for this amateur. no failures so far (30 yrs and going...) PM From mark at nashvilletn.org Tue Jul 14 22:01:44 2009 From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:01:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery References: <83E1008CF9BB43E7AFAE89169C24DE3E@EricJRussellPC><071320091154.27917.4A5B208A000C58D800006D0D22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF0ECC9D9B@att.net> <071520090318.8354.4A5D4A6A00076713000020A222230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF0ECC9D9B@att.net> Message-ID: <0FF695291D714660B17DFF991522F29C@Dell9200> The industry standard for discharging a NiCad cell is .7 volt per cell. Below that cell reversal will likely occur and destroy the pack. Been doing it that way with many thousands of packs for over 40 years which makes me too old to change my mind. We recycle over 1000 lbs of NiCad's every year of which about half died way too soon. A good (Sanyo) cell will have at lest 500 charge/discharge cycles if charged and discharged correctly but many only last 200 cycles due to abuse. Mark Nashville ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Karl Vacek" ; Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Recharging a Ni-Cad Battery Karl, I did say very occassionally and I do not believe that NiCad packs will have an issue with it, especially at the 1/10 C rate I also discussed. I would not do this with NiMH and certainly not any Lithium chemistry. which defnitely require balanced charging or regular balancing. I only use balanced chargers on Lithium cells, but simple 1/10 C charging on everything else. Complete discharging of NiCad (and only NiCad) packs is not an uncommon practice in the RC world. Jack -------------- Original message from "Karl Vacek" : -------------- > > > Also, NiCads, unlike many other batteries, have no issue and may benefit > > from a very occassional, full and complete discharge. > > > > Jack > > > This is a little off from Eric's dive light question, but... > > As an R/C pilot you can't mean that. You have a potentially lethal weapon, > and an investment of hundreds (or thousands) of dollars flying around > completely dependent upon the health of your radio batteries. > > If you're referring to completely discharging a nicad back as opposed to > one > individual cell, DO NOT do it. > > Maybe one or two complete discharges won't do any noticeable harm, but > more > than a few will begin to destroy the weakest cell in the pack. As the > cells > discharge, one reaches 0 volts first, and the current from the others > flowing through it as they continue to discharge will reverse-charge that > weakest cell, reversing its polarity. Then the second-weakest cell will > reach 0 volts and reverse polarity, and so forth, till only one cell is > left > with any voltage. > > Do that a few times and you've ruined one or more cells and thus ruined > the > pack. That's why there are smart chargers and dischargers and > expanded-scale voltmeters to monitor the state of charge and discharge of > nicad cells and battery packs and exercise them as well. > > Karl You are subscribed as mark at nashvilletn.org Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jszwed at energykinetics.com Wed Jul 15 08:11:38 2009 From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:11:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28C3A29F8F824174AB98943F80646DF2@EnergyKinetics.EKnet> >> Is there any trick for getting coiled tubing straight? Years ago when I worked in a machine shop, we used to run some jobs that was made from coiled aluminum and copper. The material had to be straightened before it could be cut to length. What we had was homemade I believe, but it was a series of say 5 rollers with a full radius cut on each one and they were mounted in two staggered rows on a piece of angle iron. We used to put this in a vice and pull the tubing through it by hand. It worked really well. Joe Szwed From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Jul 15 08:33:43 2009 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:33:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Soft-jaw pliers References: Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387EC@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Karl Vacek wrote: > Is there a reasonably-priced source of ready-made soft-jaw pliers (or pipe > wrenches) ?? Maybe aluminum or brass jaws, maybe something like Delrin > or regular Nylon ?? How about covers for the pliers like these from Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91952 I've seen similar pads at Sears: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00945446000P?keyword=pliers (search for "pliers covers" in case the link doesn't work). Or even "Soft Jaw Plumbing Pliers" : http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00977205000P?keyword=jaw Tim Mullen From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Jul 15 09:36:44 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:36:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Soft-jaw pliers References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387EC@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: Those "Plumbing pliers" look like they might do much of what I want. Certainly they should work for small chromed or aluminum, etc. parts. Maybe my shower massage will finally stop spraying at its connections ;-) I'd still like a set of aluminum or brass jaws too - maybe a soft-jawed pipe wrench. Right now I'm rebuilding some Girling Luvax shock absorbers and they have large straight-knurled caps on each end. I'm going to have to bore a hole in some aluminum and then split it into two halves to make a tool to remove those caps without marking them. Karl >> > Is there a reasonably-priced source of ready-made soft-jaw pliers (or pipe >> wrenches) ?? Maybe aluminum or brass jaws, maybe something like Delrin >> or regular Nylon ?? > > How about covers for the pliers like these from Harbor Freight: > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91952 > > I've seen similar pads at Sears: > http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00945446000P?keyword=pliers > (search for "pliers covers" in case the link doesn't work). > > Or even "Soft Jaw Plumbing Pliers" : > http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00977205000P?keyword=jaw > > Tim Mullen From kennedybc at comcast.net Wed Jul 15 09:54:51 2009 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:54:51 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Soft-jaw pliers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've seen a shop vice with a piece of about 100 mil copper cut and shaped to go over the jaws. It stayed in place just fine. Don't see why you couldn't do the same for pliers. Brian K. On 7/15/09 8:36 AM, "Karl Vacek" wrote: > Those "Plumbing pliers" look like they might do much of what I want. > Certainly they should work for small chromed or aluminum, etc. parts. Maybe > my shower massage will finally stop spraying at its connections ;-) > > I'd still like a set of aluminum or brass jaws too - maybe a soft-jawed pipe > wrench. Right now I'm rebuilding some Girling Luvax shock absorbers and > they have large straight-knurled caps on each end. I'm going to have to > bore a hole in some aluminum and then split it into two halves to make a > tool to remove those caps without marking them. > > Karl > > > >>> >> Is there a reasonably-priced source of ready-made soft-jaw pliers (or pipe >>> wrenches) ?? Maybe aluminum or brass jaws, maybe something like Delrin >>> or regular Nylon ?? >> >> How about covers for the pliers like these from Harbor Freight: >> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91952 >> >> I've seen similar pads at Sears: >> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00945446000P?keyword=pliers >> (search for "pliers covers" in case the link doesn't work). >> >> Or even "Soft Jaw Plumbing Pliers" : >> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00977205000P?keyword=jaw >> >> Tim Mullen From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 15 10:53:32 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:53:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Soft-jaw pliers In-Reply-To: References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387EC@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <0BE953B56B5F466E90DB9C922BDBBFB3@jdnet.deere.com> > maybe a soft-jawed > pipe wrench. That seems like a contradiction in terms to me. A "pipe wrench" works by digging into whatever you are turning, so the jaws have to have teeth sharp enough to dig in. Once the teeth are too dull to bite, it will just slip uselessly (and soft teeth are going to dull PDQ). For soft jaws, I think you need something more like pliers, so the force to create the friction can be applied externally rather than by the action of the teeth. > I'm going to have to > bore a hole in some aluminum and then split it into two halves to make a > tool to remove those caps without marking them. FWIW, I've had good luck using lumber scraps for tasks like that. Cheap and quick, so no qualms about throwing it away afterwards. Soft wood (building lumber) will work, but if you have some hardwood scraps (say from old freight pallets), that works even better. And a cheap hole saw will usually come close enough on the hole size to avoid the need for boring. -- Randall From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Jul 15 13:07:25 2009 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Car Shipping Recommendation Message-ID: <20090715145435.X72476@itonami.pair.com> Anyone here shipped a car lately? Got any recommended haulers? I may need to ship an MR2 from Chicago to Pennsylvania. I'm more concerned with getting it there undamaged, than cheaply, since the buyer will be paying. Thanks. Shop-talk content: This will effectively double the size of my shop ;) -- David Hillman From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 15 18:10:03 2009 From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Car Shipping Recommendation Message-ID: <597320.52565.qm@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've never shipped a car myself but I just sold a car and the buyer is having it shipped from Kansas City to Connecticut. They are using a company called Classic Auto Express LLC. Randy --- On Wed, 7/15/09, David Hillman wrote: From: David Hillman Subject: [Shop-talk] Car Shipping Recommendation To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 2:07 PM Anyone here shipped a car lately? Got any recommended haulers? I may need to ship an MR2 from Chicago to Pennsylvania. I'm more concerned with getting it there undamaged, than cheaply, since the buyer will be paying. Thanks. Shop-talk content: This will effectively double the size of my shop ;) -- David Hillman You are subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Jul 16 03:32:47 2009 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:32:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Soft-jaw pliers References: Message-ID: <002401ca05f8$61e471b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> > Is there a reasonably-priced source of ready-made soft-jaw pliers (or pipe > wrenches) ?? Yea, called soft jaw water pump pliers. Google search it and you'll find scads of them. Big lot stores don't carry them, but some old fashioned hardware stores do, and of course the specialty stores. From jblair1948 at cox.net Thu Jul 16 05:43:26 2009 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:43:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Car Shipping Recommendation In-Reply-To: <597320.52565.qm@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <597320.52565.qm@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090716074137.01d26d68@cox.net> At 08:10 PM 7/15/2009, David Hillman wrote: >Anyone here shipped a car lately? Got any recommended haulers? I may need >to ship an MR2 from Chicago to Pennsylvania. I'm more concerned with getting >it there undamaged, than cheaply, since the buyer will be paying. David, We had a car shipped from CA to VA about a year ago. It was shipped via Pacific Eastern Express (www.pacificeasternexpress.com) (800) 404-9011. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From eric at megageek.com Thu Jul 16 05:48:02 2009 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:48:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] I got a great deal at the wrong time! Message-ID: One of my buddies at a, now defunct, Chevy dealership asked me if I wanted to buy their fork-lift (he knows me well.) Anyway, he made me an awesome deal, and despite me just buying the order picker, I couldn't pass it up. So, I'm putting the order picker on the chopping block. If anyone here ever wanted an order picker, I'm taking a loss just to unload it (as I don't need both.) Here is the ebay listing (but we can sell it outside of ebay if you are interested.) And since ebay links are weird, here is the item number... 270427723646 If you ever wanted on, this is a great price for a great unit. For this price, you can even just place it in the shop as a 3000# cap elevator. Comes with everything you need. Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From bn1 at pacbell.net Thu Jul 16 10:57:51 2009 From: bn1 at pacbell.net (Mr. Bill) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:57:51 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grandfather clock. In-Reply-To: <4E17B9AD6E7044838AFFDC49164B5174@8sv5f01> References: <4E17B9AD6E7044838AFFDC49164B5174@8sv5f01> Message-ID: <4A5F5C0F.9060608@pacbell.net> Thank you for all the suggestions. I will check out the earthquake preventative sections of the big-box stores and will visit some nearby antique stores for advice on removing the odor. Bill Barnett Santa Ana, CA From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Jul 16 11:12:40 2009 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Car Shipping Recommendation In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090716074137.01d26d68@cox.net> References: <597320.52565.qm@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20090716074137.01d26d68@cox.net> Message-ID: <20090716131144.A35529@itonami.pair.com> Thanks for the all the help. Quite unexpectedly, a local guy came and bought the car last night, so the question is moot. 'ppreciate it, though. -- David Hillman From berry at kerch.com Sat Jul 18 15:31:55 2009 From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:31:55 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Straightening brake lines In-Reply-To: <4A5CD408.2000006@milleredp.com> References: <991FD25457A04577AA374AFD851730FA@niolon> <0KMS006YWAWHVA11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <2400a5d40907141141u7331b31bx25d4c549d7ac9898@mail.gmail.com> <4A5CD408.2000006@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <4A623F4B.8090602@kerch.com> John Miller wrote: > I've seen reference to a tool called a 'tubing straightener' but I > don't have one and know nothing about them. One example is the BrakeQuip BQ1025 "Tube Straightner": http://www.brakequip.com/tools_tube_straight.html Mount it in your bench vise, feed the tubing through it, and presto, straight tubing. From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Sat Jul 18 15:54:47 2009 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:54:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] finding a wire in a wall/attic Message-ID: <74887CD5DFD24602B36F80F67A26B97C@OFFICEPC> "john niolon" asked: Subject: [Shop-talk] circuit finder ??? <> One option would be to turn off the rest of the circuits in the house that might be around there and plug a heater or other large draw into the outlet. You can then trace the path it takes back to the circuit breaker box with an IR thermometer. These things are quite good at seeing very small heat flows out of ductwork and can see the hot water pipes in walls along with wires with current flowing through them. I haven't tried it but night vision goggles can do the same thing, if they are sensitive enough. Mark Miller From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jul 18 16:18:15 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:18:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] finding a wire in a wall/attic In-Reply-To: <74887CD5DFD24602B36F80F67A26B97C@OFFICEPC> Message-ID: <20090718221815549.ZXV28563@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> > You can then trace the path it takes back to the circuit breaker box with > an IR thermometer. Now that's something I never would have thought of! Thanks, Mark. Randall From mark at sccaprepared.com Sun Jul 19 22:08:07 2009 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 80psi to 160psi without power? Message-ID: Howdy, Anyone know how a system like this can work? http://www.dickmantires.com/air_pressure/air_pressure.html Mark From berry at kerch.com Sun Jul 19 22:22:09 2009 From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:22:09 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80psi to 160psi without power? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A63F0F1.5040106@kerch.com> Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Anyone know how a system like this can work? > > http://www.dickmantires.com/air_pressure/air_pressure.html > > My first guess is it's a hydraulic ram pump like this: http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram4.htm only using air as the working fluid. From bspidell at comcast.net Sun Jul 19 22:50:56 2009 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:50:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80psi to 160psi without power? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A63F7B0.6070803@comcast.net> From the looks of it, it's a two chambered pump that uses pneumatic "amplification" (similar to hydraulic advantage). For example: two pistons, connected by a common rod. Piston one is 2"sq and takes 60psi--that's 120pounds applied to the other piston, which is only 1"sq, producing a 120psi output (but one-half the volume of air). There's valving that allows the piston to cycle, so the output would be pulsed, but at a higher pressure determined by the relative sizes of the two pistons (and the input pressure). There's a similar type of device used to inflate the struts on aircraft landing gear, which can take upwards of 400psi. The input can be 'normal' compressor output; i.e. 80-120psi or so. bs Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Anyone know how a system like this can work? > > http://www.dickmantires.com/air_pressure/air_pressure.html > > Mark > _______________________________________________ -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jul 19 22:59:05 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:59:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80psi to 160psi without power? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090720045905358.BFHU21390@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> > Anyone know how a system like this can work? > > http://www.dickmantires.com/air_pressure/air_pressure.html The details say "The pressure increase is attained using mechanical advantage inside the booster." That makes me think it's a pump & compressor of some sort, like perhaps a 1.4" diameter piston driving a 1" diameter piston. For example, http://tinyurl.com/ktxzca Randall From strovato at optonline.net Mon Jul 20 06:55:19 2009 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:55:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch In-Reply-To: <0KMM00K6TFB3VO00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <884296.19359.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0KMI00658X62SZN0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0KMM00K6TFB3VO00@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0KN200KUUZWFTLG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> OK, more winch stuff. My father-in-law has a boat that he lifts out of the water after each use with a homemade lift. The winch he built it with has died, and he is now replacing it. He purchased a cheap winch and it lifts the boat, then drops it back into the water when the winch is turned off. Not quite what he had in mind. Just thought i'd point out that winches can have "dynamic braking" which just means that the gearing and the motor kind of resist unwinding. This is clearly not enough to hold a boat up. Other winches have "mechanical braking" which involves an actual mechanism to keep the drum from turning. Even these, though, are not always rated for the full load of the winch. I don't think your lifting application is going to leave a heavy load on the winch, right? Just thought I'd point all this out in case it is helpful. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 20 13:08:06 2009 From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch Message-ID: <188958.20472.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good point Steve! This is definitely something I wouldn't think about during the purchase, I would just assume. Thanks for the feedback. Frank V. rustymetal at sbcglobal.net --- On Mon, 7/20/09, Steven Trovato wrote: From: Steven Trovato Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110 vac winch To: "Shop Talk" Cc: "Frank Vantacich" Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 5:55 AM OK, more winch stuff. My father-in-law has a boat that he lifts out of the water after each use with a homemade lift. The winch he built it with has died, and he is now replacing it. He purchased a cheap winch and it lifts the boat, then drops it back into the water when the winch is turned off. Not quite what he had in mind. Just thought i'd point out that winches can have "dynamic braking" which just means that the gearing and the motor kind of resist unwinding. This is clearly not enough to hold a boat up. Other winches have "mechanical braking" which involves an actual mechanism to keep the drum from turning. Even these, though, are not always rated for the full load of the winch. I don't think your lifting application is going to leave a heavy load on the winch, right? Just thought I'd point all this out in case it is helpful. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net From jdinnis at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 18:52:52 2009 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:52:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 80psi to 160psi without power? In-Reply-To: <20090720045905358.BFHU21390@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> References: <20090720045905358.BFHU21390@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: The thing to remember about these systems is that the are strict pressure multipliers. So if you get double the pressure out the back side, you have to put (a little more than) twice the volume in the front side. If your onboard compressor is a small piston type, it will have to work a long time to get the job done. These were designed as someone else mentioned to be used on nitrogen bottles when they are getting low on pressure. There is still a lot of gas left in them, but not enough pressure to do the job at hand. But the systems I have seen in the past were larger shop tools, not suitable for vehicle installation. They were also much cheaper. On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Randall wrote: >> Anyone know how a system like this can work? >> >> http://www.dickmantires.com/air_pressure/air_pressure.html > > The details say "The pressure increase is attained using mechanical > advantage inside the booster." > > That makes me think it's a pump & compressor of some sort, like perhaps a > 1.4" diameter piston driving a 1" diameter piston. For example, > http://tinyurl.com/ktxzca > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From brad.kahler at 141.com Tue Jul 21 21:24:49 2009 From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:24:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] high frequency welder capacitors Message-ID: <4A668681.8040305@141.com> I have an older Linde / Union Carbide AC/DC Tig/Stick welder (weighs 800 lbs!). It is a great welder that I'm extremely happy with. There are very few components that could go wrong with this welder since it has no electronics in it what so ever. However there are a couple of capacitors that I have seen fail on similar welders. The particular capacitors in question are in the high frequency circuit and are .002 mfd Mica 5000 volt capacitors. I've picked up the following capacitors as potential replacements should the original ones finally fail. Later units used 10,000 volt capacitors probably due to failures of the lower voltage units. The ones I have picked up are listed below: Sangamo Mica .002 mfd 5000 volts 6.2 amps 1000 k.c. Cornell-Dubilier Mica .002 mfd 6000 volts 6.2 amps 1000 k.c. Aerovox Mica .002 mfd 6000 volts 13 amps @ 3000 k.c. or 11 amps @ 1000 k.c or 7.5 amps at 300 k.c. Sprague Mica .002 mfd 10,000 volts 14 amps @ 1000 k.c. or 8 amps @ 300 k.c. The Sangamo and the Cornell-Dubilier look identical, brown rectangles with terminals on top and the only difference being one has a potted assembly and the other has a little plate with 4 rivets on the bottom in stead of potting. The Aerovox and the Sprague are transmitting capacitors and are cylindrical with mounting ears on top and bottom. I am assuming the wires are attached to the top and bottom mounting holes. What I'm wondering is whether the transmitting capacitors can be used in place of the original capacitor without either being destroyed or not functioning properly in the high frequency circuit of the welder. Any thoughts?! Thanks, Brad From brad.kahler at 141.com Wed Jul 22 03:49:47 2009 From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 05:49:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] high frequency welder capacitors In-Reply-To: <201172.46974.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201172.46974.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A66E0BB.20208@141.com> Since I don't really understand this stuff I can't really say other than it uses a high voltage transformer coupled with a spark gap system to generate the high frequency. Here is a link to the schematic. I believe the two capacitors in question called the oscillator capacitor and the by-pass capacitor. http://www.141.com/chevy/misc/F-11-412-D_HDA-200_schematic.pdf Brad Doug Braun wrote: > How does it get the high frequency without any electronics? > > Doug > > --- On Tue, 7/21/09, Brad Kahler wrote: > > >> From: Brad Kahler >> Subject: [Shop-talk] high frequency welder capacitors >> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 11:24 PM >> I have an older Linde / Union Carbide >> AC/DC Tig/Stick welder (weighs 800 lbs!). It is a >> great welder that I'm extremely happy with. There are >> very few components that could go wrong with this welder >> since it has no electronics in it what so ever. >> However there are a couple of capacitors that I have seen >> fail on similar welders. The particular capacitors in >> question are in the high frequency circuit and are .002 mfd >> Mica 5000 volt capacitors. I've picked up the >> following capacitors as potential replacements should the >> original ones finally fail. Later units used 10,000 >> volt capacitors probably due to failures of the lower >> voltage units. >> >> The ones I have picked up are listed below: >> >> Sangamo Mica .002 mfd 5000 volts 6.2 amps 1000 k.c. >> >> Cornell-Dubilier >> Mica .002 mfd 6000 volts 6.2 amps 1000 k.c. >> >> Aerovox >> Mica .002 mfd 6000 volts 13 amps @ 3000 k.c. or 11 amps @ >> 1000 k.c or 7.5 amps at 300 k.c. >> >> Sprague >> Mica .002 mfd 10,000 volts 14 amps @ 1000 k.c. or 8 amps @ >> 300 k.c. >> >> The Sangamo and the Cornell-Dubilier look identical, brown >> rectangles with terminals on top and the only difference >> being one has a potted assembly and the other has a little >> plate with 4 rivets on the bottom in stead of potting. >> >> The Aerovox and the Sprague are transmitting capacitors and >> are cylindrical with mounting ears on top and bottom. >> I am assuming the wires are attached to the top and bottom >> mounting holes. >> >> What I'm wondering is whether the transmitting capacitors >> can be used in place of the original capacitor without >> either being destroyed or not functioning properly in the >> high frequency circuit of the welder. >> >> Any thoughts?! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Brad >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 22 10:01:26 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:01:26 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] high frequency welder capacitors In-Reply-To: <4A668681.8040305@141.com> References: <4A668681.8040305@141.com> Message-ID: <068B537D62E44445993AAF3B0B8D14DB@jdnet.deere.com> > What I'm wondering is whether the transmitting capacitors can be used in > place of the original capacitor without either being destroyed or not > functioning properly in the high frequency circuit of the welder. I am by no means an expert, but I believe they should work OK. From the specs you quote, they appear to have even lower ESR than the originals, which should mean that they dissipate less heat and so will probably even last longer. The extra kV rating should help too. That part of the circuit is actually rather similar to a spark-gap transmitter, which actually predates practical vacuum tubes by a few years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark-gap_transmitter -- Randall From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Jul 22 13:01:12 2009 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:01:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <188958.20472.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> And I cannot work on the Triumph until the wife and kid can swim again... For the past few weeks the main pool pump has hummed a little bit when I turned it on, before it actually began pumping water. So, I'd flip the switch, it'd go, "mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" for three or four seconds, and then the actual impeller would start turning, water flows, etc. I assume it was the electric motor humming. No, it was definitely the motor humming. Last night it hummed for three or four seconds, then stopped. Now it does nothing. The breaker is not flipped. That exhausts my troubleshooting ability for this fault. However, I have tools enough to wire an addition to a house and tear down and rebuild automotive engines. Can any of the EEs here perhaps start me on the way to diagnosing this before I either: 1) buy a new pump for $600, or, 2) backfill the huge p.i.t.a. the pool has become and send the wife and kids to the municipal pool. I'd imagine I should start soon, before the lack of water being pumped through the filter turns the pool green again. Any help appreciated. Thanks. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 22 13:20:08 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:20:08 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <188958.20472.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <080E1022930F4DE88C98F0F3F82F668B@jdnet.deere.com> Depending on the motor type, it will have either starting contacts inside or a starting capacitor. Whichever it has is bad ... from your description I would guess it's a capacitor start and the capacitor has lost its capacity Remove it, read the ratings, buy a similar one, put the new one in. Then find the overload button on the motor and push it back in. Or get on the web and look for a replacement motor. They are fairly standard, and the motor alone should cost a lot less than $600. For that matter, I've been looking at entire pumps for a lot less than $600. For example, here's a 2hp for under $350: http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/pool_pumps.htm -- Randall From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Wed Jul 22 15:29:08 2009 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:29:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <188958.20472.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I'm not a EE nor do I play one on TV. I did teach motors at a vocational high school for a dozen years. When my pool pump had problems a few years ago I got a new motor. I do not remember how much it cost, but it was not $600. It could be a starter winding or a starter cap. If you do not get any better ideas, you might want to take it to a motor repair shop. Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves! > Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:01:12 +0000 > From: scott.hall at comcast.net > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out > > And I cannot work on the Triumph until the wife and kid can swim again... > > For the past few weeks the main pool pump has hummed a little bit when I turned it on, before it actually began pumping water. So, I'd flip the switch, it'd go, "mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" for three or four seconds, and then the actual impeller would start turning, water flows, etc. I assume it was the electric motor humming. No, it was definitely the motor humming. > > Last night it hummed for three or four seconds, then stopped. Now it does nothing. > > The breaker is not flipped. That exhausts my troubleshooting ability for this fault. > > However, I have tools enough to wire an addition to a house and tear down and rebuild automotive engines. Can any of the EEs here perhaps start me on the way to diagnosing this before I either: > > 1) buy a new pump for $600, or, > 2) backfill the huge p.i.t.a. the pool has become and send the wife and kids to the municipal pool. > > I'd imagine I should start soon, before the lack of water being pumped through the filter turns the pool green again. Any help appreciated. > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From dhlocker at comcast.net Wed Jul 22 18:45:33 2009 From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:45:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1256283954.4277961248309808043.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <977921738.4278801248309933902.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hi, Scott. In the interests of getting you back to the poor wee beastie, I would suggest you look for a thermal cutout in the motor. Should be a press-to-reset button, likely red (ask someone to help if you are as colour blind as I am; you'll never see it otherwise). Eventually, you will have to fix the fault that is causing the thermal to trip (check for faulty start/run capacitors or centrifugal start switches) but that should get you going. HTH, Donald. ----- Original Message ----- From: "scott hall" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:01:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out And I cannot work on the Triumph until the wife and kid can swim again... For the past few weeks the main pool pump has hummed a little bit when I turned it on, before it actually began pumping water. So, I'd flip the switch, it'd go, "mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" for three or four seconds, and then the actual impeller would start turning, water flows, etc. I assume it was the electric motor humming. No, it was definitely the motor humming. Last night it hummed for three or four seconds, then stopped. Now it does nothing. The breaker is not flipped. That exhausts my troubleshooting ability for this fault. However, I have tools enough to wire an addition to a house and tear down and rebuild automotive engines. Can any of the EEs here perhaps start me on the way to diagnosing this before I either: 1) buy a new pump for $600, or, 2) backfill the huge p.i.t.a. the pool has become and send the wife and kids to the municipal pool. I'd imagine I should start soon, before the lack of water being pumped through the filter turns the pool green again. Any help appreciated. Thanks. From cak at dimebank.com Wed Jul 22 19:03:28 2009 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out Message-ID: <200907230103.n6N13S7I029517@moose.dimebank.com> Scott - The start capacitor is typically housed in a lump on the outside of the main motor body. There will be a sheet metal cover that can be removed after unscrewing a single screw. That should reveal the cap; you can read the rating and get a replacment. I'd start there... chris From ericm at lne.com Wed Jul 22 19:16:27 2009 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:16:27 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <200907230103.n6N13S7I029517@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200907230103.n6N13S7I029517@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <20090723011627.GD12757@slack.lne.com> Also inspect the connection between the motor and the pump. The last two times we have had to replace our well "pump" its been the connection between the two, not the motor itself, that's gone bad.... like all the splines worn off. From james.f.juhas at snet.net Wed Jul 22 20:49:56 2009 From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:49:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A67CFD4.4000800@snet.net> You didn't say how big the motor is or what the make is. I have a Hayward filter, pump and motor. I had similar problems with mine and the starting capacitor fixed it. But, more and more stuff happened, and I think an additional cause of my issues was wearing bearings. I replaced the motor (can't remember the price but way less than $600) and I found the newer technology resulted in a much quieter motor and pump assembly which appears to be much more efficient as well. This is a 3/4 HP motor on a 220v line. scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > And I cannot work on the Triumph until the wife and kid can swim again... > > For the past few weeks the main pool pump has hummed a little bit when I turned it on, before it actually began pumping water. So, I'd flip the switch, it'd go, "mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" for three or four seconds, and then the actual impeller would start turning, water flows, etc. I assume it was the electric motor humming. No, it was definitely the motor humming. > > Last night it hummed for three or four seconds, then stopped. Now it does nothing. > > The breaker is not flipped. That exhausts my troubleshooting ability for this fault. > > However, I have tools enough to wire an addition to a house and tear down and rebuild automotive engines. Can any of the EEs here perhaps start me on the way to diagnosing this before I either: > > 1) buy a new pump for $600, or, > 2) backfill the huge p.i.t.a. the pool has become and send the wife and kids to the municipal pool. > > I'd imagine I should start soon, before the lack of water being pumped through the filter turns the pool green again. Any help appreciated. > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as james.f.juhas at snet.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Wed Jul 22 21:14:32 2009 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:14:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out References: <1469505299.4453071248289272231.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <64153CC25CED4ABBA506C14D4F3E8157@B50SS> Dear Scott, The "common approach" now is to use 1/2 the HP and run it for twice as long as the original motor. If you have a 25K gallon pool, you could maintain it with a 3/4 HP motor/pump very easily. Just extend the run times. The most expensive component of any pool is the electricity required to run the pump. Using smaller motors and running them for longer periods of time dramtically reduces the friction losses in the piping. I am waiting for my current 12 year-old 1 1/2 HP pump motor to die so I can replace it with a two-speed or variable speed motor that would pay for itself in a year or two if I were not on a photovoltaic system. best, shook ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XLH 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 12:01 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out > And I cannot work on the Triumph until the wife and kid can swim again... > > For the past few weeks the main pool pump has hummed a little bit when I > turned it on, before it actually began pumping water. So, I'd flip the > switch, it'd go, "mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" for three or four seconds, and then > the actual impeller would start turning, water flows, etc. I assume it was > the electric motor humming. No, it was definitely the motor humming. > > Last night it hummed for three or four seconds, then stopped. Now it does > nothing. > > The breaker is not flipped. That exhausts my troubleshooting ability for > this fault. > > However, I have tools enough to wire an addition to a house and tear down > and rebuild automotive engines. Can any of the EEs here perhaps start me > on the way to diagnosing this before I either: > > 1) buy a new pump for $600, or, > 2) backfill the huge p.i.t.a. the pool has become and send the wife and > kids to the municipal pool. > > I'd imagine I should start soon, before the lack of water being pumped > through the filter turns the pool green again. Any help appreciated. > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Jul 22 21:51:47 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Relevant obituary in tomorrow's NY Times Message-ID: <860843.48702.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "John S. Barry, an executive who masterminded the spread of WD-40, the petroleum-based lubricant and protectant created for the space program, into millions of American households, died on July 3 in the La Jolla neighborhood of San Diego. He was 84." See: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22barry1.html From mpless at ucsd.edu Thu Jul 23 10:54:35 2009 From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:54:35 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <200907230103.n6N13S7I029517@moose.dimebank.com> (from cak@dimebank.com on Wed Jul 22 18:03:28 2009) References: <200907230103.n6N13S7I029517@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <1248368075l.5963l.4l@servo.ucsd.edu> On 07/22/2009 06:03:28 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > Scott - > > The start capacitor is typically housed in a lump on the outside of > the main motor body. There will be a sheet metal cover that can > be removed after unscrewing a single screw. That should reveal > the cap; you can read the rating and get a replacment. > > I'd start there... > > chris If you do wind up replacing a start capacitor bear in mind that it might still be holding enough electricity to give you a bit of a surprise. Many years ago when I worked in A/C and refridgeration we'd pull the connectors with insulated pliers and then short across the connectors with a screwdriver before handling the cap, just in case. --Marcus From scott.hall at comcast.net Thu Jul 23 18:05:22 2009 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1248368075l.5963l.4l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <934249784.5002171248393922817.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> so there was no hump on the top of the motor, the 'bottom' end of the motor's cylindrical housing came off, revealing what I hope is a transformer. and I hope that's what was broken, because I took marcus' advice to heart, removing it with a pair of pliers, and I destroyed it in the process. It's a black plastic cylinder, maybe three inches long by one inch in diameter. it has four spade connectors on one end, three of them were wired up to something in the motor. the bottom came off revealing a 2-inch long roll of what appears to be paper wrapped around a plastic (?) rod. like a miniature paper towel-like roll. I managed to pull the top off the bottom, unrolling the paper. no fluid came out. the only thing printed on this thing that I think is pertinent is: 161-193MFD 110VAC 60Hz OP.T. MAX 65 C then a date (01/02/2006) and what I assume is a part number. I'm going to have to replace this thing anyway, does the 110 VAC part sound okay? it's a 220 motor. or at least it's got a double breaker in the box. next to this thing and with wired from it was an inverse 'v' of two flexible metal tabs. there didn't seem to be anything pushing on them, but pushing them at the 'v's point with a screwdriver seemed to activate a switch underneath them. might those be points? I do not see a red button in the housing. in fact, there was nothing that looked like a reset button at all. must it have one? the motor is an AO Smith. I am assuming it is older than 2006, but it's outside, so I guess you never know. From scott.hall at comcast.net Thu Jul 23 18:17:30 2009 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:17:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <934249784.5002171248393922817.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1908785032.5006371248394650990.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I'm sorry, I meant capacitor, and that's what this thing appears to be. haven't found the exact one on grainger yet, but the pictures on the site look like the thing on my table right now. does it have to match the specs exactly? for example, there's a dayton capacitor that matches specifications, but ony has two spade connectors. I'm going to assume it's important to hook up all three wires like they came off. but don't see four spade connectors and those specs. yet. for that matter, I didn't note how they came off. just plug the three back on to any of the four spade connectors? thanks guys. if you're in town, please come swim in my pool--the damn thing is too much hassle to not have everyone enjoying the thing. perhaps you could also lend a hand on the triumph bonnet alignment. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "scott hall" To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:05:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out so there was no hump on the top of the motor, the 'bottom' end of the motor's cylindrical housing came off, revealing what I hope is a transformer. and I hope that's what was broken, because I took marcus' advice to heart, removing it with a pair of pliers, and I destroyed it in the process. It's a black plastic cylinder, maybe three inches long by one inch in diameter. it has four spade connectors on one end, three of them were wired up to something in the motor. the bottom came off revealing a 2-inch long roll of what appears to be paper wrapped around a plastic (?) rod. like a miniature paper towel-like roll. I managed to pull the top off the bottom, unrolling the paper. no fluid came out. the only thing printed on this thing that I think is pertinent is: 161-193MFD 110VAC 60Hz OP.T. MAX 65 C then a date (01/02/2006) and what I assume is a part number. I'm going to have to replace this thing anyway, does the 110 VAC part sound okay? it's a 220 motor. or at least it's got a double breaker in the box. next to this thing and with wired from it was an inverse 'v' of two flexible metal tabs. there didn't seem to be anything pushing on them, but pushing them at the 'v's point with a screwdriver seemed to activate a switch underneath them. might those be points? I do not see a red button in the housing. in fact, there was nothing that looked like a reset button at all. must it have one? the motor is an AO Smith. I am assuming it is older than 2006, but it's outside, so I guess you never know. From scott.hall at comcast.net Fri Jul 24 12:22:03 2009 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:22:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1248368075l.5963l.4l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <337407234.5280211248459723272.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> most excellent. have the capacitor, it is the right size, it fits in the housing...and I don't know how to hook it up. the blade terminals on the capacitor are not marked, there are just four of them in an 'h' pattern. I didn't note how the wires came off the old one, and neither a.o. smith (phone and web) nor hayward know. pool store will be happy to sell me a new one, though. :-) so...I'm going to just hook it up. I figure the worst that happens is I destroy the capacitor, right? I'll just keep buying them until I figure it out? or I'm insane and about to start an electrical fire and kill myself? From mpless at ucsd.edu Fri Jul 24 12:44:48 2009 From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:44:48 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1908785032.5006371248394650990.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> (from scott.hall@comcast.net on Thu Jul 23 17:17:30 2009) References: <934249784.5002171248393922817.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <1908785032.5006371248394650990.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1248461088l.11180l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu> How many wires were actually going to the start cap? If it was three total then two of them would go to one pair of U-shaped spade connectors and the remaining wire would go to the other set of U-shaped spade connectors. It looks like grainger has a possible replacement at: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2MDR4 I'd look for a wiring diagram, perhaps under a motor cover or perhaps by googling for that model of motor, to figure out how to hook things back up. On 07/23/2009 05:17:30 PM, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > I'm sorry, I meant capacitor, and that's what this thing appears to > be. haven't found the exact one on grainger yet, but the pictures on > the site look like the thing on my table right now. > > does it have to match the specs exactly? for example, there's a > dayton > capacitor that matches specifications, but ony has two spade > connectors. I'm going to assume it's important to hook up all three > wires like they came off. but don't see four spade connectors and > those specs. yet. > > for that matter, I didn't note how they came off. just plug the three > back on to any of the four spade connectors? > > thanks guys. if you're in town, please come swim in my pool--the damn > thing is too much hassle to not have everyone enjoying the thing. > perhaps you could also lend a hand on the triumph bonnet alignment. > :-) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "scott hall" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:05:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out > > so there was no hump on the top of the motor, the 'bottom' end of the > motor's cylindrical housing came off, revealing what I hope is a > transformer. and I hope that's what was broken, because I took > marcus' > advice to heart, removing it with a pair of pliers, and I destroyed > it > in the process. It's a black plastic cylinder, maybe three inches > long > by one inch in diameter. it has four spade connectors on one end, > three of them were wired up to something in the motor. the bottom > came > off revealing a 2-inch long roll of what appears to be paper wrapped > around a plastic (?) rod. like a miniature paper towel-like roll. I > managed to pull the top off the bottom, unrolling the paper. no fluid > came out. > > the only thing printed on this thing that I think is pertinent is: > > 161-193MFD 110VAC 60Hz > OP.T. MAX 65 C > > then a date (01/02/2006) and what I assume is a part number. > > I'm going to have to replace this thing anyway, does the 110 VAC part > sound okay? it's a 220 motor. or at least it's got a double breaker > in > the box. > > next to this thing and with wired from it was an inverse 'v' of two > flexible metal tabs. there didn't seem to be anything pushing on > them, > but pushing them at the 'v's point with a screwdriver seemed to > activate a switch underneath them. might those be points? > > I do not see a red button in the housing. in fact, there was nothing > that looked like a reset button at all. must it have one? > > the motor is an AO Smith. I am assuming it is older than 2006, but > it's outside, so I guess you never know. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as mpless at ucsd.edu > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From scott.hall at comcast.net Fri Jul 24 12:54:19 2009 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:54:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <1248461088l.11180l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <711679880.5294771248461659234.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> no polarity is marked anywhere on the capacitor I took out or its replacement, which is the dayton from grainger. there were three wires going to the capacitor, and I forgot to note the colors, but I'll go look. there is no wiring diagram and ao smith does not have its model number listed in its website and does not do phone tech. I did not google the model number of the motor. I'll try that. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jul 24 15:30:06 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:30:06 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <337407234.5280211248459723272.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20090724213007520.PKYM29330@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> > most excellent. have the capacitor, it is the right size, it fits in the > housing...and I don't know how to hook it up. the blade terminals on the > capacitor are not marked, there are just four of them in an 'h' pattern. Either look closely or check with a meter; the pairs that are closer together are typically connected. IOW the capacitor only has two connections, but each has two terminals for convenience in wiring. > so...I'm going to just hook it up. I figure the worst that happens is I > destroy the capacitor, right? I'll just keep buying them until I figure it > out? Not likely to hurt the capacitor (AC capacitors don't have polarity so there's no worry about hooking it up backwards). If the motor doesn't run, most likely it will just pop the circuit breaker. The main thing to watch for, IMO, is having it run backwards. However, you might want to chase down where the start switch or relay is and check that it works. It should kill the current through the start capacitor and winding once the motor is up to speed. If it doesn't, the capacitor will soon fail again (if the motor doesn't overheat or pop the breaker). Hopefully there was some sort of automatic overload, since you didn't find a manual one. Otherwise, the motor would hum with a bad cap and power applied. "No sound" means the main winding wasn't getting power either. Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 15:57:54 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:57:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <20090724213007520.PKYM29330@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> References: <337407234.5280211248459723272.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <20090724213007520.PKYM29330@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907241457g72878c9fm3426b79a82cdb98f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Randall wrote: > Not likely to hurt the capacitor (AC capacitors don't have polarity so > there's no worry about hooking it up backwards). B If the motor doesn't run, > most likely it will just pop the circuit breaker. B The main thing to watch > for, IMO, is having it run backwards. > > However, you might want to chase down where the start switch or relay is and > check that it works. B It should kill the current through the start capacitor > and winding once the motor is up to speed. B If it doesn't, the capacitor > will soon fail again (if the motor doesn't overheat or pop the breaker). There are capacitor run motors, as well. Where the start winding is left attached. If i rember right, they don't get very big, though. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jul 24 16:22:38 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:22:38 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40907241457g72878c9fm3426b79a82cdb98f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090724222238983.QTLO29330@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> > There are capacitor run motors, as well. Where the start winding is > left attached. That's true, but at least the ones I'm familiar with have two capacitors and contacts to take the start capacitor out of the circuit once the motor is running. A much smaller 'run' capacitor is left in the circuit (along with the start winding) to improve the motor's performance. Here's a (poor quality) diagram that might help Scott figure out what's going on. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh260/TR3driver/UNTITLED-1.jpg Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 16:51:10 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:51:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] sigh...now the pool PUMP is out In-Reply-To: <20090724222238983.QTLO29330@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> References: <2400a5d40907241457g72878c9fm3426b79a82cdb98f@mail.gmail.com> <20090724222238983.QTLO29330@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907241551s285314aal47a1b565765e5f16@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Randall wrote: >> There are capacitor run motors, as well. B Where the start winding is >> left attached. > > That's true, but at least the ones I'm familiar with have two capacitors and > contacts to take the start capacitor out of the circuit once the motor is > running. B A much smaller 'run' capacitor is left in the circuit (along with > the start winding) to improve the motor's performance. > that's how higher power ones work. There are small ones that have the (very small) cap permanently owered. They've got more starting torque than a shaded pole motor, but less than a dedicated starting cap. The other advantage is that if you swich which winding the cap is wired to, the motor will rotate the other direction. I've seen them in fairly small air handling equipment. I don't think they're used for things more than 1/3 horse or so. > Here's a (poor quality) diagram that might help Scott figure out what's > going on. > http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh260/TR3driver/UNTITLED-1.jpg > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net B http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Jul 25 10:50:46 2009 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots Message-ID: <9532B8A3A6634DC58985A3FA8D51E05B@niolon> well, my lightweight metatarsal work boots are finally wearing out... the metatarsal shield came loose on the left boot yesterday and I do a flop walk now.... how bout some recommendations for a safety toe workboot that doesn't weigh you down and is waterproof... don't necessarily need the metatarsal guard anymore, but steel toe is a good idea... thanks John "A Free People ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington From dhlocker at comcast.net Sat Jul 25 18:26:48 2009 From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:26:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots In-Reply-To: <9532B8A3A6634DC58985A3FA8D51E05B@niolon> Message-ID: <483506109.5237111248568008969.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I'm a big fan of Red Wing boots. Tough, good size choices, good looking, tough and come in a variety of styles and weights. Bought mine right in Chelsea (MI) at Vogel's and Foster's (in the trade since something like 1879.) Donald. ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:50:46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots well, my lightweight metatarsal work boots are finally wearing out... the metatarsal shield came loose on the left boot yesterday and I do a flop walk now.... how bout some recommendations for a safety toe workboot that doesn't weigh you down and is waterproof... don't necessarily need the metatarsal guard anymore, but steel toe is a good idea... thanks John "A Free People ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington From vlm at te-motorworks.com Sat Jul 25 19:06:24 2009 From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:06:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots In-Reply-To: <483506109.5237111248568008969.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <483506109.5237111248568008969.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <386F824F-AEA6-435A-A505-8A380B84BCA0@te-motorworks.com> I'll second that recommendation. The pair I have are fairly tall logger boots - they have a safety toe and a fairly rigid shank and they provide a lot of support, which I appreciate when I fall off of things. They are very durable, but they are by no means light. -vin -- TE Labs computer internet. On Jul 25, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Donald H Locker wrote: > I'm a big fan of Red Wing boots. Tough, good size choices, good > looking, tough and come in a variety of styles and weights. Bought > mine right in Chelsea (MI) at Vogel's and Foster's (in the trade > since something like 1879.) > > Donald. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "john niolon" > To: "shop-talk" > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:50:46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots > > well, my lightweight metatarsal work boots are finally wearing > out... the > metatarsal shield came loose on the left boot yesterday and I do a > flop walk > now.... how bout some recommendations for a safety toe workboot that > doesn't weigh you down and is waterproof... don't necessarily need > the > metatarsal guard anymore, but steel toe is a good idea... > > thanks > John > > > "A Free People ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they > should > have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of > independence > from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their > own > government." George Washington > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sat Jul 25 19:35:49 2009 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:35:49 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots References: <483506109.5237111248568008969.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <386F824F-AEA6-435A-A505-8A380B84BCA0@te-motorworks.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I concur, but I also would like to recommend Chippewa: http://www.chippewaboots.com/ Great USA hand made boots -- I love them. I have a pair for the motorcycle and another for work. When I took them in to the shoe repairman, even he was impressed (damage was from a high-speed take-down on the Harbor Fwy here in Los Angeles -- elderly woman whacked me in rush hour traffic). You will not be disappointed, please trust me on this one. doug ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XLH 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vin Marshall" To: "Donald H Locker" Cc: "shop-talk" Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] work boots > I'll second that recommendation. The pair I have are fairly tall logger > boots - they have a safety toe and a fairly rigid shank and they provide > a lot of support, which I appreciate when I fall off of things. > > They are very durable, but they are by no means light. > > -vin > > -- > TE Labs computer internet. > > > On Jul 25, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Donald H Locker > wrote: > >> I'm a big fan of Red Wing boots. Tough, good size choices, good >> looking, tough and come in a variety of styles and weights. Bought mine >> right in Chelsea (MI) at Vogel's and Foster's (in the trade since >> something like 1879.) >> >> Donald. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "john niolon" >> To: "shop-talk" >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:50:46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots >> >> well, my lightweight metatarsal work boots are finally wearing out... >> the >> metatarsal shield came loose on the left boot yesterday and I do a flop >> walk >> now.... how bout some recommendations for a safety toe workboot that >> doesn't weigh you down and is waterproof... don't necessarily need the >> metatarsal guard anymore, but steel toe is a good idea... >> >> thanks >> John >> >> >> "A Free People ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they >> should >> have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence >> from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own >> government." George Washington >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From cavanadd at verizon.net Sat Jul 25 21:59:16 2009 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:59:16 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets Message-ID: <4A6BD494.9030502@verizon.net> Most of my power tools (table saw, jointer, etc) are 220. Some of them are on independent circuits- the big 12" table saw, the welder, air compressor, lathe, mill. Some of the other stuff- radial arm saws, bandsaw, jointer, etc have several outlets on one circuit. I just brought home a spindle shaper today, and it's 220, too, which got me to counting; I have at least 12 220 volt tools in the shop. I don't think I have enough room in the panel for that many two pole breakers unless I replace a bunch of them with skinny breakers. I suppose I could also put in a sub panel. For what it's worth, I'm the only one that uses the shop and normally only one tool is ever being run at one time, except the compressor which is on it's own breaker. Thoughts? Dave C From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 22:20:48 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:20:48 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <4A6BD494.9030502@verizon.net> References: <4A6BD494.9030502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907252120s6f3b1a95l2336f818421374b3@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM, David C. wrote: > Most of my power tools (table saw, jointer, etc) are 220. Some of them are > on independent circuits- the big 12" table saw, the welder, air compressor, > lathe, mill. Some of the other stuff- radial arm saws, bandsaw, jointer, > etc have several outlets on one circuit. I just brought home a spindle > shaper today, and it's 220, too, which got me to counting; I have at least > 12 220 volt tools in the shop. I don't think I have enough room in the > panel for that many two pole breakers unless I replace a bunch of them with > skinny breakers. I suppose I could also put in a sub panel. For what it's > worth, I'm the only one that uses the shop and normally only one tool is > ever being run at one time, except the compressor which is on it's own > breaker. > > Thoughts? Unless you live somewhere where there's a requirement that 220 devices have their own outlet, there's no reason you can't have more than one on the same circuit. An N amp 220 breaker will trip when > N amps are drawn on the circuit, same as a 120 V breaker. (There are places that require that houshold 240 loads have a single outlet per circuit. That's silly, but the code makers get to make the rules. ) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jul 25 22:27:35 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:27:35 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <4A6BD494.9030502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> > Thoughts? Personally, I'd just stick a bunch of them on the same circuit (maybe make the circuit big enough to run two at a time). No different really than having a row of 110v 15 amp outlets all on the same 15 amp circuit, which is fairly common in house wiring. But either of the other approaches would work too. I recently replaced the subpanel on my house (because it was Federal Pacific), and it wasn't all that hard. The original box is buried in the wall facing the outside, but the subpanel is just surface mounted below it. The feed from main to sub is fished through the wall. Randall From crothfuss at coastalnet.com Sat Jul 25 22:38:03 2009 From: crothfuss at coastalnet.com (crothfuss at coastalnet.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:38:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots Message-ID: <11753028.1248583084208.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> John, I was happy to see Redwing get early recommendations. I've got three pairs now, and have been wearing Redwings for ...geeze, 36 years. My favorites for work have been resoled about 20 times, had patches applied to the toes so I can crawl around in caves, and a patch along one side since my broken feet don't flex quite right. Can't beat a completely rebuildable U.S. made boot. They're an investment, and worth every penny. For more waterproof and warm, even when you get icy water inside, I really like Matterhorn's. They're also U.S. made, Gortex lined (so that cold water warms up around your feet like you were wearing a wet suit), but a bit heavy and clunky for every day civilian wear. If you live outdoors in the winter they're great. Chuck -----Original Message----- >From: john niolon >Sent: Jul 25, 2009 12:50 PM >To: shop-talk >Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots > >well, my lightweight metatarsal work boots are finally wearing out... the >metatarsal shield came loose on the left boot yesterday and I do a flop walk >now.... how bout some recommendations for a safety toe workboot that >doesn't weigh you down and is waterproof... don't necessarily need the >metatarsal guard anymore, but steel toe is a good idea... > >thanks >John From jibjib at att.net Sun Jul 26 23:54:33 2009 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:54:33 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots In-Reply-To: <11753028.1248583084208.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <11753028.1248583084208.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <52FF50822A5C40A988DB2B96CF493B96@HPPavilion> I'll second the Redwing suggestions. Many years later, they are still my favorites. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of crothfuss at coastalnet.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:38 PM To: shop-talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] work boots John, I was happy to see Redwing get early recommendations. I've got three pairs now, and have been wearing Redwings for ...geeze, 36 years. My favorites for work have been resoled about 20 times, had patches applied to the toes so I can crawl around in caves, and a patch along one side since my broken feet don't flex quite right. Can't beat a completely rebuildable U.S. made boot. They're an investment, and worth every penny. For more waterproof and warm, even when you get icy water inside, I really like Matterhorn's. They're also U.S. made, Gortex lined (so that cold water warms up around your feet like you were wearing a wet suit), but a bit heavy and clunky for every day civilian wear. If you live outdoors in the winter they're great. Chuck -----Original Message----- >From: john niolon >Sent: Jul 25, 2009 12:50 PM >To: shop-talk >Subject: [Shop-talk] work boots > >well, my lightweight metatarsal work boots are finally wearing out... >the metatarsal shield came loose on the left boot yesterday and I do a >flop walk now.... how bout some recommendations for a safety toe >workboot that doesn't weigh you down and is waterproof... don't >necessarily need the metatarsal guard anymore, but steel toe is a good idea... > >thanks >John You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From mark at sccaprepared.com Tue Jul 28 21:16:34 2009 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> References: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, 25 Jul 2009, Randall wrote: > Personally, I'd just stick a bunch of them on the same circuit (maybe > make the circuit big enough to run two at a time). No different really > than having a row of 110v 15 amp outlets all on the same 15 amp circuit, > which is fairly common in house wiring. The issue I've had with this kinda thing is how to splice the (thick) wires together to be able to put a bunch of 220vac outlets in series. Love to get any feedback on proper methods for this. Also, if you size the breaker big enough for two loads, remember that the outlets all need to be rated for that higher amperage as well, which almost certainly means redoing plugs, etc. Mark From cavanadd at verizon.net Tue Jul 28 21:34:31 2009 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:34:31 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: References: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <4A6FC347.1080309@verizon.net> Yeah, 220 outlets aren't designed to daisy chain like 110 outlets are. What I have done is use a 2x4 or 4x4 handy box as a splice box and run two or three circuits out of that, but, as you said, splicing gets kind of messy. The big wire nuts are rated for 3 or 4 conductors, and the wire rating is usually on the package or sometimes actually on the wire nut itself. I am looking for a cleaner way to do this, too. I'm starting to lean towards the sub panel idea and will be pricing sub panels at the Borg sometimes in the next few weeks. If there is some way to use a buss system instead of a splice box I would like to hear about it. Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Sat, 25 Jul 2009, Randall wrote: >> Personally, I'd just stick a bunch of them on the same circuit (maybe >> make the circuit big enough to run two at a time). No different really >> than having a row of 110v 15 amp outlets all on the same 15 amp >> circuit, which is fairly common in house wiring. > > The issue I've had with this kinda thing is how to splice the (thick) > wires together to be able to put a bunch of 220vac outlets in series. > > Love to get any feedback on proper methods for this. > > Also, if you size the breaker big enough for two loads, remember that > the outlets all need to be rated for that higher amperage as well, which > almost certainly means redoing plugs, etc. > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Jul 28 22:04:02 2009 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:04:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets References: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <7FA30DF8B2604CC790843D965C305814@KARL> > The issue I've had with this kinda thing is how to splice the (thick) > wires together to be able to put a bunch of 220vac outlets in series. > > Love to get any feedback on proper methods for this. For splicing really thick wires, use Burndy split-bolts. The usual home centers carry these, or of course any real electrical supply. It's a bronze bolt, split down the threaded end, with a mating nut that has a clamp piece attached that rides in the slot and properly compresses the wires together. Tighten with a couple of wrenches and tape well and you have a far superior joint to what you can do with wire nuts. > Also, if you size the breaker big enough for two loads, remember that the > outlets all need to be rated for that higher amperage as well, which > almost certainly means redoing plugs, etc. Not really. For instance, you can have 15-amp receptacles on a 20-amp circuit, but you can't have 20-amp receptacles on a 15-amp circuit. The breaker primarily serves to protect the circuit TO the receptacle. The receptacle limits the type of appliance that can be plugged into the circuit. You physically can't put a 20-amp plug into a 15-amp receptacle and overload that 15-amp circuit, but you can plug a 10-amp appliance with a 16-gauge cord into a 15-amp receptacle. Any necessary overload protection in an appliance should be built into the appliance. That's why motors have thermal overloads, for instance. Breakers protect against too many amps being drawn on a circuit and against shorts (which momentarily draw LOTS of amps). Karl From paul.mele at usermail.com Wed Jul 29 03:48:18 2009 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:48:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <4A6FC347.1080309@verizon.net> References: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> <4A6FC347.1080309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000301ca1031$b50472d0$1f0d5870$@mele@usermail.com> I know that there are lots of other authorities on this, but here's one view.. cut a 6 inch piece of wire, i.e. "pigtail", splice it and the incoming and outgoing together with a wirenut. a little practice with the wide-jawed electrician's pliers and you can get the 3 12g or 10g wires to twist into a nice spiral; then clip off the end at 45 deg (perpendic. to the axis of the twisted strands. this makes a nice point to feed into the wire nut. the free end of the pigtail goes to the device (outlet). as far as the rating on the outlets goes, recall that the job of the breaker in the box is to limit the current thru the wiring (in the wall) to the rated carrying capacity of the wire, e.g. 12g/ 20 A, 10g/ 30A (each wire gauge has a rated ampacity; it is determined by the amount of heat given off by the wire when it carries max amperage; this in turn prevents fire potential in the walls). you can always use a load (lamp, welder, motor) which draws or needs less amperage than the rated ampacity of the wire. The wire stays cool, no fire hazard. Of course, if you always use a bigger than needed wire, you waste money. the job of the outlet/ device is to limit the load placed on the wire in the wall. you don't want to plug in a 20A load into a circuit with 14g (15A ampacity) wire...it will overheat the wire. so, in the current scenario, a 20A 220V outlet attached to an 8g wire (40A ampacity) would simply limit you to plugging in a 20A load...the 8g wire is fine with that. So is the breaker, whose job is to protect the wiring and the house, not the load (e.g. welder) . The load would be protected by its own internal breaker as determined by the engineer who designed the load. an 8g wiring run to a (pair of) 40A breakers with multiple 20A / 220V outlets would allow you to plug in all the tools you'd like, and run any 2 at a time. there is no difference with this arrangement as compared to several 15A/ 110 outlets on a 12g 20A breaker circuit...the total load to the circuit breaker (and heat from the 12g wiring) doesn't care how many 110V loads are applied...it will trip if you try to run too much current thru the wire and burn down the house. that said, 2 thoughts... 8g wire is stiff...have fun. there are special wire nuts for these babies. the wire gauge examples/ ratings are for runs less than 75 feet (if memory serves); consult the tables, but expect to go up one size if you go 76 to 150 ft, e.g. 10g wire to carry 20A 120ft, if memory serves. HTH; others may do a better explanation. PM Yeah, 220 outlets aren't designed to daisy chain like 110 outlets are. What I have done is use a 2x4 or 4x4 handy box as a splice box and run two or three circuits out of that, but, as you said, splicing gets kind of messy. The big wire nuts are rated for 3 or 4 conductors, and the wire rating is usually on the package or sometimes actually on the wire nut itself. I am looking for a cleaner way to do this, too. I'm starting to lean towards the sub panel idea and will be pricing sub panels at the Borg sometimes in the next few weeks. If there is some way to use a buss system instead of a splice box I would like to hear about it. > The issue I've had with this kinda thing is how to splice the (thick) > wires together to be able to put a bunch of 220vac outlets in series. > > Love to get any feedback on proper methods for this. > > Also, if you size the breaker big enough for two loads, remember that > the outlets all need to be rated for that higher amperage as well, which > almost certainly means redoing plugs, etc. From mark at sccaprepared.com Wed Jul 29 06:34:32 2009 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <000301ca1031$b50472d0$1f0d5870$@mele@usermail.com> References: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> <4A6FC347.1080309@verizon.net> <000301ca1031$b50472d0$1f0d5870$@mele@usermail.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Paul Mele wrote: > as far as the rating on the outlets goes, recall that the job of the > breaker in the box is to limit the current thru the wiring (in the wall) > to the rated carrying capacity of the wire, e.g. 12g/ 20 A, 10g/ 30A > (each wire gauge has a rated ampacity; it is determined by the amount of > heat given off by the wire when it carries max amperage; this in turn > prevents fire potential in the walls). That makes sense, and its something I never really thought about too much. Out of curiosity, does that mean it'd be within code to run a 30A 110vac circuit (with 10g wire & appropriate breaker) with a bunch of 20A outlets on it? How does GFI protection play into a scenario like that? In my garage, I've got a GFI outlet as the first in a series on a circuit, protecting the rest of the outlets on the circuit. Can that GFI outlet handle protecting a 30A load? And, at least for me, the garage 220vac outlets are 50A (6g or 8g wire, I can't remember), and that wire was kinda hard to do anything with a wire nut... I'll check out the split bolt ones someone mentioned... Sounds like a good idea. Mark From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Wed Jul 29 06:41:18 2009 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:41:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets Message-ID: <20090729124118.GA84560@sackheads.org> My understanding was that NEC requires outlet ratings to match the breaker and that an explicit exception was included to allow for 15A outlets on a 20A circuit. So while there's nothing preventing you from installing, say, a bunch of 20A outlets on a 50A circuit, such a setup would fail an inspection. Imagine the fire that could result should an appliance plugged into the circuit develop a short that tops-out at 45A (meaning that the breaker would never trip).... From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 06:55:39 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:55:39 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: References: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> <4A6FC347.1080309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907290555q11b2fdb9me089a355b36fa421@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Paul Mele wrote: > >> as far as the rating on the outlets goes, recall that the job of the >> breaker in the box is to limit the current thru the wiring (in the wall) to >> the rated carrying capacity of the wire, e.g. 12g/ 20 A, 10g/ 30A (each wire >> gauge has a rated ampacity; it is determined by the amount of heat given off >> by the wire when it carries max amperage; this in turn prevents fire >> potential in the walls). >> > > That makes sense, and its something I never really thought about too much. > > Out of curiosity, does that mean it'd be within code to run a 30A 110vac > circuit (with 10g wire & appropriate breaker) with a bunch of 20A outlets on > it? Absolutely not! In general, receptacles have to match the rating of the breaker they're connected to. That means if you have a 50 A breaker, you need 50A outlets. You have a 30A breaker, you need 30A outlets. There's a specific exception for 5-15 outlets on a 20A 120V circuit. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jdinnis at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 07:29:04 2009 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:29:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40907290555q11b2fdb9me089a355b36fa421@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090726042734565.MNKO5845@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> <4A6FC347.1080309@verizon.net> <2400a5d40907290555q11b2fdb9me089a355b36fa421@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave is right, NFP 210.21 says the outlet has to match the breaker. The only exception they allow is for 50 amp welders. > > Absolutely not! > > In general, receptacles have to match the rating of the breaker they're > connected to. That means if you have a 50 A breaker, you need 50A outlets. > You have a 30A breaker, you need 30A outlets. > > There's a specific exception for 5-15 outlets on a 20A 120V circuit. > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Jul 29 12:45:02 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <20090729124118.GA84560@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> While we're on the subject: The manual to my 120 volt Lincoln welder says that for maximum output, it should be plugged into a 25 amp outlet. But does such a thing even exist? Is there in theory a type of 120V outlet meant for more than 20 amps? I've never even seen a single-pole circuit breaker higher than 20 amps. Doug --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > From: Jimmie Mayfield > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 8:41 AM > My understanding was that NEC > requires outlet ratings to match the breaker > and that an explicit exception was included to allow for > 15A outlets on a > 20A circuit. So while there's nothing preventing you > from installing, say, > a bunch of 20A outlets on a 50A circuit, such a setup would > fail an inspection. > Imagine the fire that could result should an appliance > plugged into the circuit > develop a short that tops-out at 45A (meaning that the > breaker would never > trip).... > _______________________________________________ From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jul 29 12:58:49 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:58:49 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20090729124118.GA84560@sackheads.org> <262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't know about 25 amp specifically, but 30 amp 110v is common for RVs and such. -- Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 13:01:00 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:01:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20090729124118.GA84560@sackheads.org> <262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907291201s7caf9d84q24ca9692da568d20@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > While we're on the subject: > > The manual to my 120 volt Lincoln welder says > that for maximum output, it should be plugged into a 25 amp outlet. But > does > such a thing even exist? > Is there in theory a type of 120V outlet meant for > more than 20 amps? > > I've never even seen a single-pole circuit breaker higher > than 20 amps. > There are 30 amp 120V plugs and receptacles, and 50A 120V plugs and receptacles. (They're NEMA 5-30P, 5-30R and 5-50P, 5-50R if you want to google for pics.) I've never actually seen one in use. The electrical supply place has them, though, so someone must use them. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Jul 29 13:57:58 2009 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40907291201s7caf9d84q24ca9692da568d20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41450.2240.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Of course, my welder has a standard plug. And fortunately I've never actually blown a 20-amp breaker with it, so the issue is still theoretical for me. Also, shouldn't there be a different plug, with its prongs in a sideways "T" arrangement (e.g. -| ) to fit the special 20 amp receptacles (e.g. | |- )? Doug --- On Wed, 7/29/09, David Scheidt wrote: > From: David Scheidt > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets > To: "Doug Braun" > Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net, "Jimmie Mayfield" > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 3:01 PM > > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:45 PM, > Doug Braun > wrote: > > While we're on the subject: > > > > The manual to my 120 volt Lincoln welder says > > that for maximum output, it should be plugged into a 25 amp > outlet. But does > > such a thing even exist? > > Is there in theory a type of 120V outlet meant for > > more than 20 amps? > > > > I've never even seen a single-pole circuit breaker > higher > > than 20 amps. > > There are 30 amp 120V plugs and receptacles, and 50A 120V > plugs and receptacles. > (They're NEMA 5-30P, 5-30R and 5-50P, 5-50R if you want > to google for pics.) > I've never actually seen one in use. The electrical > supply place has them, though, so someone must use them. > > > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Jul 29 13:59:02 2009 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:59:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40907291201s7caf9d84q24ca9692da568d20@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090729124118.GA84560@sackheads.org><262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2400a5d40907291201s7caf9d84q24ca9692da568d20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970349A83E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> David Scheidt > > There are 30 amp 120V plugs and receptacles, and 50A 120V plugs > and receptacles. (They're NEMA 5-30P, 5-30R and 5-50P, 5-50R if > you want to google for pics.) > I've never actually seen one in use. The electrical supply place > has them, though, so someone must use them. I have several of the 30 amp circuits here in the computer lab. The UPS and power distribution units for the computer racks plug into the 30 amp twist lock outlets. They are actually quite common; you just don't see them in a typical home. Never seen the 50 amp circuits in use however, but they would be handy. In one computer rack, I had to use two separate 30 amp circuits to get enough power for the equipment - a single 50 amp circuit would have done just fine. Usually the high current circuits get split into separate circuits in the power distribution unit - that way you get lots of outlets the each pull a bit of current. You need lots of outlets when you mount 30 dual power supply servers in a single rack But usually when you need large amounts of power (amps) you use 220 volt or other) circuits and use 220 volt power supplies (that require half the amps) in the servers... Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 14:15:09 2009 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:15:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970349A83E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <20090729124118.GA84560@sackheads.org> <262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2400a5d40907291201s7caf9d84q24ca9692da568d20@mail.gmail.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970349A83E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40907291315u5464c0a0n3ae8dc5f37ba43d0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Mullen, Tim (IS) wrote: > David Scheidt > > > > There are 30 amp 120V plugs and receptacles, and 50A 120V plugs > > and receptacles. (They're NEMA 5-30P, 5-30R and 5-50P, 5-50R if > > you want to google for pics.) > > I've never actually seen one in use. The electrical supply place > > has them, though, so someone must use them. > > I have several of the 30 amp circuits here in the computer lab. The UPS > and power distribution units for the computer racks plug into the 30 amp > twist lock outlets. They are actually quite common; you just don't see > them in a typical home. > Twist lock are something else again. The 5 series plugs are all straight pin. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Jul 29 14:17:29 2009 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:17:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <41450.2240.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <2400a5d40907291201s7caf9d84q24ca9692da568d20@mail.gmail.com> <41450.2240.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970349A84E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Doug Braun > > Also, shouldn't there be a different plug, with its > prongs in a sideways "T" > arrangement (e.g. -| ) to fit > the special 20 amp receptacles (e.g. | |- )? Of course there is. The advantage of a 20 amp (120 volt) socket is that it can take either the standard NEMA 5-15P plug (the normal standard 15 amp plug we are all familiar with) and the NEMA 5-20P (the 20 amp version). That allows you to plug a 15 amp device into either a 15 or 20 amp 110 volt socket. But you can't plug a 20 amp device into a 15 amp socket. Here's a link to some images of plugs/sockets: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sheeline.com.tw/images /sl-208-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sheeline.com.tw/pro_american-canadian -type.htm&usg=__kF_cT20fJ00kCxlM2fp0hoK_FX0=&h=275&w=275&sz=13&hl=en&sta rt=9&tbnid=s4YZXYZAVON5eM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNEMA%2B5 -20P%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jul 30 12:57:00 2009 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 220 outlets In-Reply-To: <262299.40373.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090730185659880.GFDE557@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> > The manual to my 120 volt Lincoln welder says > that for maximum output, it should be plugged into a 25 amp outlet. I wonder; wasn't there a NEC or UL requirement that a 'portable' appliance draw no more than 80% of the rated outlet current? That's why, for example, portable electric heaters are never more than about 1400 watts, even though 15 * 120 is 1800 ? Randall From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Jul 31 13:43:50 2009 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:43:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Line levels Message-ID: I have several plastic line levels, including one just purchased at Ace. They are all out by some degree, i.e. swapping it 180 on the line gives a different reading. Are they all like this? Are there good ones out there? I don't mind paying good $ if it means the water runs the right way in my gutters. thanks, jim From pj_thomas at comcast.net Fri Jul 31 14:38:18 2009 From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:38:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Line levels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A73563A.8090105@comcast.net> Jim Franklin wrote: > I have several plastic line levels, including one just purchased at > Ace. They are all out by some degree, i.e. swapping it 180 on the line > gives a different reading. Are they all like this? Yep, hard to make one that would be accurate. > Are there good ones out there? I don't mind paying good $ if it means > the water runs the right way in my gutters. Might try a water level, long plastic tube filled with water. > > thanks, > jim > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From cavanadd at verizon.net Fri Jul 31 23:54:43 2009 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:54:43 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Line levels In-Reply-To: <4A73563A.8090105@comcast.net> References: <4A73563A.8090105@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A73D8A3.1050308@verizon.net> Peter J. Thomas wrote: >> Are there good ones out there? I don't mind paying good $ if it means >> the water runs the right way in my gutters. > Might try a water level, long plastic tube filled with water. Or a laser level; they have gotten pretty cheap these days. Dave C