From nogera2 at att.net  Thu Jan  1 09:27:37 2009
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:27:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Blast Media
Message-ID: <6EA12F9E3B7F4C48AA3E0EA12CD8F76F@CARROOM>

I need to clean up a fuel pump housing and a couple of SU carbs before
rebuilding them. What would be the best blasting media for this type of
metal?

Thanks 

Bob 

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Thu Jan  1 12:41:23 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:41:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Blast Media
In-Reply-To: <6EA12F9E3B7F4C48AA3E0EA12CD8F76F@CARROOM>
References: <6EA12F9E3B7F4C48AA3E0EA12CD8F76F@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <495D1C63.9010600@verizon.net>

I would probably use walnut shells if they're aluminum.  Glass beads at 
low pressure would probably work ok, but walnut shells would be safer.

Dave C

nogera2 at att.net wrote:
> I need to clean up a fuel pump housing and a couple of SU carbs before
> rebuilding them. What would be the best blasting media for this type of
> metal?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Thu Jan  1 17:54:35 2009
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:54:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Blast Media
Message-ID: <4382458b0901011654n1faf8c94x6ab282274b21d8cd@mail.gmail.com>

If these are pot-metal castings, walnut shells are probably as
aggressive as I'd get.

> From: <nogera2 at att.net>

> I need to clean up a fuel pump housing and a couple of SU carbs before
> rebuilding them. What would be the best blasting media for this type of
> metal?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan  1 20:20:29 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:20:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Blast Media
In-Reply-To: <6EA12F9E3B7F4C48AA3E0EA12CD8F76F@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <20090102032029.HBDA17716.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I need to clean up a fuel pump housing and a couple of SU 
> carbs before rebuilding them. What would be the best blasting 
> media for this type of metal?

I would use glass beads, mostly because that's what's in my blast cabinet.
But best IMO to mask off any precision surfaces, like the inside of the
domes.  

Randall

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Fri Jan  2 08:57:33 2009
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 07:57:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
In-Reply-To: <495BC002.5010702@xxiii.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net><BAY123-W484C100D1921327D344163E1E40@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0812311126020.23342@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<495BC002.5010702@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F0D09C64A@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne [mailto:wmc_st at xxiii.com]

> Really... I think I heard federal safety guidelines for
> today's over-protected kids call for like 12 or 18 inch "pit"
> of mulch under equipment.  Which seems like what I've seen at
> current public installations.  Seems like without some good
> drainage plan, it could turn into a nasty swap-like pit.

Keeping with the theme... The swamp environment makes it easier
to keep the aligators.

:)

Stuart.

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  2 10:08:57 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:08:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
In-Reply-To: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F0D09C64A@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net><BAY123-W484C100D1921327D344163E1E40@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0812311126020.23342@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<495BC002.5010702@xxiii.com> 
	<C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F0D09C64A@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W4DAF42B8756627EBC2DF9E1E20@phx.gbl>

The gators reduce the need for the play equipment.Rich White St. Joseph, IL
USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves!>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 07:57:33 -0800> From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com> To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] kid playsets> > >
-----Original Message-----> > From: Wayne [mailto:wmc_st at xxiii.com]> > >
Really... I think I heard federal safety guidelines for> > today's
over-protected kids call for like 12 or 18 inch "pit"> > of mulch under
equipment. Which seems like what I've seen at> > current public installations.
Seems like without some good> > drainage plan, it could turn into a nasty
swap-like pit.> > Keeping with the theme... The swamp environment makes it
easier> to keep the aligators.> > :)> > Stuart.>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as
rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk> >
http://www.team.net/archive

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Fri Jan  2 16:35:38 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:35:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] concrete not hardening
Message-ID: <7981B110A25C4214AC81BC415B8E0C0C@B50SS>

Hey shop talkers,

Well I set a footing yesterday (8" quick-rite tube with a Simpson 4x4 post
bracket) using no-mix, quick-set concrete and today it still has not hardened.
I did it in the evening and the temperatures dropped into the 40's and I know
that cement should cure at 50 degrees or higher (I am in SoCal and was not
even thinking about a cold snap). I am wondering:
    - could the low temperatures caused the problem?
    - will it eventually harden?
    - will the strength be significantly diminished as a result of the low
temperatures?

Another consideration is that the concrete mix was over five years old and I
thought that may be an issue (looked good when I poured it in the tube,
though). Not a big deal, but I am hoping not to need to dig it out again....
:(

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Jan  2 16:50:22 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:50:22 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] concrete not hardening
In-Reply-To: <7981B110A25C4214AC81BC415B8E0C0C@B50SS>
References: <7981B110A25C4214AC81BC415B8E0C0C@B50SS>
Message-ID: <6B2DC822DA754BCCB0F14909BAE2C522@HPPavilion>

Shook,

It could be temperature; it could be how you mixed it.

Put a blanket or other insulation over it and wait a few more days.
Typically, the longer concrete takes to cure, the stronger it will be.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of old dirtbeard
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 3:36 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] concrete not hardening

Hey shop talkers,

Well I set a footing yesterday (8" quick-rite tube with a Simpson 4x4 post
bracket) using no-mix, quick-set concrete and today it still has not
hardened.
I did it in the evening and the temperatures dropped into the 40's and I
know that cement should cure at 50 degrees or higher (I am in SoCal and was
not even thinking about a cold snap). I am wondering:
    - could the low temperatures caused the problem?
    - will it eventually harden?
    - will the strength be significantly diminished as a result of the low
temperatures?

Another consideration is that the concrete mix was over five years old and I
thought that may be an issue (looked good when I poured it in the tube,
though). Not a big deal, but I am hoping not to need to dig it out again....
:(

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jan  6 11:27:08 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:27:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Looks like I'm going to make some built in bookcase/cabinets for my 
office.  I'm a relative newbie to finish woodworking.  Done a decent bit 
of rough carpentry and some metal machining though.

Anyway, I think I want to use biscuits rather than screws or dovetails or 
whatever.  So I want to buy a biscuit jointer / cutter to make that 
process easy.

Any recommendations?  I'm looking for something easy to use primarily.  I 
don't have any religion problems with chinese or name brand stuff.  I'll 
be using this for the occasional home project only.

Thanks!

Mark

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jan  6 11:54:32 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:54:32 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <FB46EF105067468F8CE1D05D627480F5@KARL>

DeWalt.  I've used mine only occasionally, but it's always simple to adjust 
and so far has all the power I could want even in oak.


> Anyway, I think I want to use biscuits rather than screws or dovetails or 
> whatever.  So I want to buy a biscuit jointer / cutter to make that 
> process easy.
>
> Any recommendations?  I'm looking for something easy to use primarily.  I 
> don't have any religion problems with chinese or name brand stuff.  I'll 
> be using this for the occasional home project only.

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  6 12:21:35 2009
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:21:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <FB46EF105067468F8CE1D05D627480F5@KARL>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<FB46EF105067468F8CE1D05D627480F5@KARL>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W456936082695F5F87B4C889ADE0@phx.gbl>

I know I got a smoking deal on it awhile back, which is why I bought it, but I
have the Porter-Cable.

Works great for me, though it's an occasional use tool, usually when I build
cabinets.> From: kvacek at ameritech.net> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net> Date:
Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:54:32 -0600> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit
jointer> > DeWalt. I've used mine only occasionally, but it's always simple to
adjust > and so far has all the power I could want even in oak.> > > > Anyway,
I think I want to use biscuits rather than screws or dovetails or > >
whatever. So I want to buy a biscuit jointer / cutter to make that > > process
easy.> >> > Any recommendations? I'm looking for something easy to use
primarily. I > > don't have any religion problems with chinese or name brand
stuff. I'll > > be using this for the occasional home project only.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jan  6 12:24:28 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:24:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W456936082695F5F87B4C889ADE0@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<FB46EF105067468F8CE1D05D627480F5@KARL>
	<BAY108-W456936082695F5F87B4C889ADE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061422270.16554@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> I know I got a smoking deal on it awhile back, which is why I bought it, 
> but I have the Porter-Cable.

A review I was just reading said they thought the Porter Cable was miles 
ahead of the competition.  Looks nice, but at $220 (at Home Depot here), I 
wonder if I'll appreciate the features over something like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38437

I suppose I can go play with each and see what I think.

Mark

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  6 12:34:36 2009
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:34:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061422270.16554@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<FB46EF105067468F8CE1D05D627480F5@KARL>
	<BAY108-W456936082695F5F87B4C889ADE0@phx.gbl> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061422270.16554@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W377C4BE31D0B9CEE57F33C9ADE0@phx.gbl>

Depends what you are making I guess.  As with all woodworking, precision plays
a big part.  Getting repeatable cuts is important if you're mating two pieces
for a nice piece of furniture, etc.  So make sure the adjustments aren't going
to loosen up, and slip, and the fence is square, etc.

But even the PC is prone to user error if you don't seat the joiner against
the workpiece squarely, or rock it while you're cutting, or don't push the
blade in all the way, or...  ;-)

If you're just assembling some simple shop cabinets, etc. then the below might
work.

Or... if it suits what you plan to build, a slot-cutting bit for the router
that's designed for use with biscuits is another cheap alternative.

PJ> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:24:28 -0500> From: mark at sccaprepared.com> To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit
jointer> > Howdy,> > On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, PJ McGarvey wrote:> > I know I got a
smoking deal on it awhile back, which is why I bought it, > > but I have the
Porter-Cable.> > A review I was just reading said they thought the Porter
Cable was miles > ahead of the competition. Looks nice, but at $220 (at Home
Depot here), I > wonder if I'll appreciate the features over something like
this:> >
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38437> > I
suppose I can go play with each and see what I think.> > Mark

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 13:07:40 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:07:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090106145910.04163708@yahoo.com>

DeWalt is cool.  I got the PC and it's been a treat as well....

I wouldn't want a knock-off one as that blade is pretty fierce and 
your off-hand is always in the middle of everything, bracing the 
board or holding a clamp or fixture or something.

Make sure you get good biscuits.  My f-i-l got some crap biscuits and 
they didn't swell or they swelled too much and bulged the wood...




At 1/6/2009 at 13:27, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Mark Andy's 
keyboard and said:
>Howdy,
>
>Looks like I'm going to make some built in bookcase/cabinets for my 
>office.  I'm a relative newbie to finish woodworking.  Done a decent 
>bit of rough carpentry and some metal machining though.
>
>Anyway, I think I want to use biscuits rather than screws or 
>dovetails or whatever.  So I want to buy a biscuit jointer / cutter 
>to make that process easy.
>
>Any recommendations?  I'm looking for something easy to use 
>primarily.  I don't have any religion problems with chinese or name 
>brand stuff.  I'll be using this for the occasional home project only.


Cheers!

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Jan  6 14:42:41 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:42:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <61CCD83778C74DDEACBF46C7EE7B345D@CPQ12949640186>

I've got this Craftsman one. 
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00917539000P?mv=rr
If the link doesn't work, search for 17539 on the sears site.  It's a lot of 
tool for a small price.  It's got a good accurate rack with a lot of 
adjustment.  I think you'll find it well suited for your kind of work.

Two other tools you might want to consider for your project, and other 
projects to come; a doweling jig and a pocket screw joiner like Kreg.  Both 
are pretty cheap and darn usefull. 

From bbubeck01 at comcast.net  Tue Jan  6 15:33:36 2009
From: bbubeck01 at comcast.net (bbubeck01 at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:33:36 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
Message-ID: <010620092233.19828.4963DC40000AAF8500004D742209224627CECF050C0A0D9A0D0D@comcast.net>

Mark,
I have the HF joiner and I wouldn't recommend it. I was joining oak for a couple of tables and the blade was dull near the end of the project.
Bruce

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> 

> Howdy, 
> 
> On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, PJ McGarvey wrote: 
> > I know I got a smoking deal on it awhile back, which is why I bought it, 
> > but I have the Porter-Cable. 
> 
> A review I was just reading said they thought the Porter Cable was miles 
> ahead of the competition. Looks nice, but at $220 (at Home Depot here), I 
> wonder if I'll appreciate the features over something like this: 
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38437 
> 
> I suppose I can go play with each and see what I think. 
> 
> Mark 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> You are subscribed as bbubeck01 at comcast.net 
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk 
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jan  6 15:50:30 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:50:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <010620092233.19828.4963DC40000AAF8500004D742209224627CECF050C0A0D9A0D0D@comcast.net>
References: <010620092233.19828.4963DC40000AAF8500004D742209224627CECF050C0A0D9A0D0D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4963E036.9020101@xxiii.com>

bbubeck01 at comcast.net wrote:
>> A review I was just reading said they thought the Porter Cable was miles 
>> ahead of the competition. Looks nice, but at $220 (at Home Depot here), I 
>> wonder if I'll appreciate the features over something like this: 

I have a Porter Cable on loan from a friend now, and the thing just 
REEKS of QUALITY!  I'm not much into woodwork, and can't compare it to 
any others.  But it's one of those tools with the design, build and 
finish quality that is unmistakable.  Unfortunately, he told me... it 
was about $200.  Won't be buying myself one anytime soon.

   -Wayne

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jan  6 18:48:01 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:48:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <4963E036.9020101@xxiii.com>
References: <010620092233.19828.4963DC40000AAF8500004D742209224627CECF050C0A0D9A0D0D@comcast.net>
	<4963E036.9020101@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901062026420.29312@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, Wayne wrote:
>>> A review I was just reading said they thought the Porter Cable was miles 
>>> ahead of the competition. Looks nice, but at $220 (at Home Depot here), I 
>>> wonder if I'll appreciate the features over something like this: 
>
> I have a Porter Cable on loan from a friend now, and the thing just 
> REEKS of QUALITY!  I'm not much into woodwork, and can't compare it to 
> any others. But it's one of those tools with the design, build and 
> finish quality that is unmistakable.  Unfortunately, he told me... it 
> was about $200.  Won't be buying myself one anytime soon.

Yeah, that's the problem...  I really only have immediate plans to build 
this (reasonably extensive) set of built in bookshelves.  I imagine I 
won't make more than 50 cuts with the thing before I put it on a shelf for 
quite a while.

Has anyone else used one of the HF versions?

Mark

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Jan  6 19:48:13 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:48:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
References: <010620092233.19828.4963DC40000AAF8500004D742209224627CECF050C0A0D9A0D0D@comcast.net><4963E036.9020101@xxiii.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901062026420.29312@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <93C79E06FA4B40F9A6B8885B53325BFA@ejrussell>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy"
> Yeah, that's the problem...  I really only have immediate plans to 
> build this (reasonably extensive) set of built in bookshelves.  I 
> imagine I won't make more than 50 cuts with the thing before I put 
> it on a shelf for quite a while.
>
> Has anyone else used one of the HF versions?

I am generally leery of HF tools. Sometimes they are cheap enough that
one can justify buying 2 or 3 and still pay less than one 'quality'
tool for a job you might only need a tool occasionally. But I don't
think a biscuit joiner would be a good one to experiment with. You
could ruin some nice wood and end up paying just as much or more vs
buying a decent tool.

I have a Freud biscuit joiner. I've had it for many years - before PC
and Dewalt, etc came out with their versions. At the time (those many
years ago) it was a knock-off of a very expensive Lamello model. It
looks like they still sell it:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolguideDirectory.aspx?dir=Biscuit+Joiners

My joiner looks like this one:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideProduct.aspx?id=5633
Other than buying a replacement blade so that I can send one out for
sharpening and continue to work I've not needed any repairs.

The main advantage of most of the newer models is that the fences
appear easier to adjust for various joints & some have dust collection
(they shoot out lots of sawdust). I just try to plan my work so that
all joints needing similar set ups are done without needing to adjust
the fence back & forth. And then I sweep up the shop when I'm done...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Tue Jan  6 20:20:59 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:20:59 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <49641F9B.8010209@verizon.net>

I have a Freud, and it's been so long since I used it that I had to go 
out to the shop and blow the sawdust off the case to see what kind it 
was.  I got it probably fifteen years ago, and I'll bet it's been ten 
years since I used it.  I did a couple of projects with it then either 
lost interest or found other ways to do the same thing.  It seems that 
biscuit joiners were a huge fad about 15-20 years ago, mostly 
Norm-driven I think.  Now the huge fad is pocket hole drilling jigs. 
Like someone else said, if you have a router you can probably make that 
work almost as well for a lot less.  Routers, now there's another huge 
fad...but I have five of them.  No, six.  The big one is permanently in 
the router table.

Dave C

Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Looks like I'm going to make some built in bookcase/cabinets for my
> office. I'm a relative newbie to finish woodworking. Done a decent bit
> of rough carpentry and some metal machining though.
>
> Anyway, I think I want to use biscuits rather than screws or dovetails
> or whatever. So I want to buy a biscuit jointer / cutter to make that
> process easy.
>
> Any recommendations? I'm looking for something easy to use primarily. I
> don't have any religion problems with chinese or name brand stuff. I'll
> be using this for the occasional home project only.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Tue Jan  6 20:30:02 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone )
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 03:30:02 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
Message-ID: <COL110-DS4AF5294F0A192C7ED287DCCDF0@phx.gbl>

I am reading this on my cell phone and can't access the specific links you
posted, but I have a HF joiner. It is one of their inexpensive orange ones and
I only needed it for a one time, non visible project. It was adequate for that
use, but I would probably buy a higher quality one if I was building a set of
bookcases like you intend. I think a better unit would both save time
(adjusting the HF was a PITA) and do a better job.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Jan  6 21:21:21 2009
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:21:21 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061422270.16554@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<FB46EF105067468F8CE1D05D627480F5@KARL>
	<BAY108-W456936082695F5F87B4C889ADE0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061422270.16554@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <49642DC1.2090606@earthlink.net>

I have a Harbor Freight one similar to this purchased a few years ago 
for $39 and it is a fair unit. I used it to reinforce several miter 
joints in 1x3 casing around exterior doors and it worked fine. I made a 
few practice cuts on some scrap and the second joint was just right.

I also picked up a Kreg pocket hole kit a few months ago and really like 
it for things like a face frame where the screw holes are hidden. It's 
easier that biscuit joints and doesn't require clamps while the glue 
sets. I have this one: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17193 and 
paid about $39 at my local Rockler store.

Brian

Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>> I know I got a smoking deal on it awhile back, which is why I bought 
>> it, but I have the Porter-Cable.
>
> A review I was just reading said they thought the Porter Cable was 
> miles ahead of the competition. Looks nice, but at $220 (at Home Depot 
> here), I wonder if I'll appreciate the features over something like this:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38437
>
> I suppose I can go play with each and see what I think.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Wed Jan  7 00:21:38 2009
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:21:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Biscuit joiner
Message-ID: <1D1D0784EA784E87A0B222E4DFED6B65@OFFICEPC>

I have a Freud JS100 that I bought on ebay for $36 (just went back and
looked it up).  I would much rather buy quality used instead of crap new.  

 

Mark Miller

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 23:44:26 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:44:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <49641F9B.8010209@verizon.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901061322510.14320@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<49641F9B.8010209@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090107014400.04134330@yahoo.com>

You should sell yours to Mark...


At 1/6/2009 at 22:20, Shakespearean monkeys danced on David C.'s 
keyboard and said:
>I have a Freud, and it's been so long since I used it that I had to 
>go out to the shop and blow the sawdust off the case to see what 
>kind it was.  I got it probably fifteen years ago, and I'll bet it's 
>been ten years since I used it.  I did a couple of projects with it 
>then either lost interest or found other ways to do the same 
>thing.  It seems that biscuit joiners were a huge fad about 15-20 
>years ago, mostly Norm-driven I think.  Now the huge fad is pocket 
>hole drilling jigs. Like someone else said, if you have a router you 
>can probably make that work almost as well for a lot less.  Routers, 
>now there's another huge fad...but I have five of them.  No, 
>six.  The big one is permanently in the router table.
>
>Dave C
>
>Mark Andy wrote:
>>Howdy,


Cheers!

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Jan  7 08:39:01 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:39:01 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
Message-ID: <010720091539.8279.4964CC950004AECA0000205722165514069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>

> Yeah, that's the problem...  I really only have immediate plans to build 
> this (reasonably extensive) set of built in bookshelves.  I imagine I 
> won't make more than 50 cuts with the thing before I put it on a shelf for 
> quite a while.

For 50 cuts, I'd get the real thing. For 4 cuts, I'd buy the cheapo.

Is there a used-tool store in your burg?  It might be worth checking it for a used Porter-Cable or the like.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Wed Jan  7 09:07:12 2009
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:07:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <010720091539.8279.4964CC950004AECA0000205722165514069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <010720091539.8279.4964CC950004AECA0000205722165514069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002901c970e2$02ea5040$08bef0c0$@net>

We just use butter and grape jelly to join our biscuit halves together!

C-Ya

Ron 

Sorry couldn't resist!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jan  7 16:10:52 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:10:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107171807.01c61388@cox.net>

Gang,

I just received a Harbor Freight flyer in the mail today.  In it 
there is a freon
leak detector for $70.  Anybody have / used one?

I have a freind that has a very old electronic leak detector but it 
is different than
the one in the HF flyer.  I've seen his for sale someplace for about 
$150 to $300
if memory servers me.

So I looked on eBay and found several similar to the CEN-TECH one that HF
is selling.  Most of there were made by VIOT or itstop and selling for about
$55 to $70 including shipping.  Just wondering if either of these 
might be better
for about the same price.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Jan  7 17:14:03 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:14:03 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107171807.01c61388@cox.net>
Message-ID: <12FCF9B8B9E04D8DB2F73B4521461531@KARL>

35 years ago I started working on car air conditioning, and installed air in 
my house the next year.  Only had my gauges, vacuum pump (just an old 
hermetic compressor), and soap solution.  Always worked fine - no problems. 
Once I borrowed a halon torch.  It didn't indicate anything till I bled off 
enough Freon to hear the leak.  Back to the soap.  A few years back I 
decided to upgrade to modern technology and bought a used TIF 5600 halogen 
detector.  Again, it only detects gross leaks - no matter what they claim 
about molecules-per-day levels.  Sent it in for service and they said it was 
fine.  Back to the soap.  Works great.

I've been using Nylog the last few years, a type of o-ring sealant made from 
refrigerant oil.  Might be like shark repellent in Lake Michigan, but I 
haven't had any leaks.

YMMV

Good luck !
Karl

PS - Wanna buy my TIF leak detector ?  I bet it's a far better-made piece 
than Horrible Freight sells.



> I just received a Harbor Freight flyer in the mail today.  In it there is 
> a freon
> leak detector for $70.  Anybody have / used one?
>
> I have a freind that has a very old electronic leak detector but it is 
> different than
> the one in the HF flyer.  I've seen his for sale someplace for about $150 
> to $300
> if memory servers me.
>
> So I looked on eBay and found several similar to the CEN-TECH one that HF
> is selling.  Most of there were made by VIOT or itstop and selling for 
> about
> $55 to $70 including shipping.  Just wondering if either of these might be 
> better
> for about the same price.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan  7 18:10:41 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:10:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
In-Reply-To: <12FCF9B8B9E04D8DB2F73B4521461531@KARL>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107171807.01c61388@cox.net>
	<12FCF9B8B9E04D8DB2F73B4521461531@KARL>
Message-ID: <245201c9712d$ed15ddb0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Once I borrowed a halon torch.  It didn't indicate anything till I bled
> off
> enough Freon to hear the leak.

That's odd.  My old torch could easily detect leaks that would take months
to bleed a system down.  Of course, you had to get the hose poked pretty
close to the leak, and the wait for the flame to suck the Freon through the
hose, but it did work.

> A few years back I
> decided to upgrade to modern technology and bought a used TIF 5600 halogen
> detector.  Again, it only detects gross leaks 

No idea what model it was (that was some 35 years ago), but the electronic
detector I bought was so sensitive that it would pick up the residual Freon
left in the air after repairing a leak.  I had to literally put a fan on the
area for about 4 hours before it would quit beeping no matter where I put
the probe.  Never really tested it for accuracy, but once it gave a clean
bill of health to the systems I was working on, no one had to touch them
again for several years.

The one at HF appears to have several nice features that the one I tried did
not, including calibrating to the "free air" concentration of halogens and
adjustable sensitivity.  Of course that does not mean it works well, but it
does speak to a certain level of design.  I'd try it.  In fact, I may pick
one up for the next time I try to tackle an A/C problem.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jan  7 19:16:23 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:16:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
In-Reply-To: <245201c9712d$ed15ddb0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107171807.01c61388@cox.net>
	<12FCF9B8B9E04D8DB2F73B4521461531@KARL>
	<245201c9712d$ed15ddb0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107211138.01c84d98@cox.net>

At 08:10 PM 1/7/2009, Randall wrote:

 >No idea what model it was (that was some 35 years ago), but the electronic
 >detector I bought was so sensitive that it would pick up the residual Freon
 >left in the air after repairing a leak. ....

My friends electronic detector works pretty well also.  It's always 
found leaks we
couldn't pin point with the bubbles.  Once we found an area to concentrate on,
we could usually find the leak with the bubbles.  I remember one time on my
taurus, the leak was behind a clamp on the 2 pipes on the manifold on back of
the compressor.  We couldn't find anything with the bubbles.  But the leak
detector about where the leak was.  We finally pulled the fan, and the clamps
and then the bubbles found the leaks.

I've always been impressed with his leak detector.  I know the obvious thing
he is to go to his place and use his equipment, which I might just continue to
do.  But he's in his mid 70s.  So I don't know how much longer he's going to
want to crawl around the cars working on the ACs. :)

Thanks to everyone for their replys, ideas, and input.  I may just break down
and get one of the HF units and play with it.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Jan  7 20:09:46 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:09:46 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a biscuit jointer
In-Reply-To: <010720091539.8279.4964CC950004AECA0000205722165514069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <010720091539.8279.4964CC950004AECA0000205722165514069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49656E7A.4050504@verizon.net>

Pawn shop?  Might be worth checking a few out.  I got my Hitachi framing 
nailer at a pawn shop.  (Now that's a scary tool.)  When the economy 
gets tough, pawn shops can have some great deals.  Years ago I used to 
comb through a half dozen or so pawn shops every couple of months.  Of 
course, that's how I ended up with six routers...

Dave C

pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> For 50 cuts, I'd get the real thing. For 4 cuts, I'd buy the cheapo.
>
> Is there a used-tool store in your burg?  It might be worth checking it for a used Porter-Cable or the like.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan  8 07:38:26 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:38:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107211138.01c84d98@cox.net>
Message-ID: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

Here's another freon-related question: 

My house has a 25-year-old built-in Sub-Zero refrigerator that is cooling
poorly.  Unfortunately Sub-Zero service people charge a lot, and new units are
breathtakingly overpriced.  Each of the refrigerator and freezer compressors
has the standard high and low side Schraeder-style fittings (like tire valve
stems, but a bit bigger).  I have a manifold gauge set that would attach to
these, but during the process of attaching or removing the hoses, a lot of
freon leaks out of the connections.

So how can I work around this problem?  The gauge set came with adapters that
attach to modern car R-134A ports, and have knobs that open the internal
valves after the adapters have been securely attached to the ports.

Are there equivalent adapters that attach to the older-style Schraeder
fittings?
Or do A/C techs simply attach and detach the hoses quickly and not worry about
the freon that leaks out in the process?

Any advice would be very welcome.  I do not want to have to pay somebody
several hundred dollars per year to keep the refrigerator going, and I really
do not want to pay $6000+ for a new one.  Every refrigerator sold in the size
I need (24x48") is just as expensive.

Doug

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 08:28:04 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:28:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
In-Reply-To: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107211138.01c84d98@cox.net>
	<335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901080728p7c3d08dbqbd455669da0e98b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Here's another freon-related question:
>
> My house has a 25-year-old built-in Sub-Zero refrigerator that is cooling
> poorly.  Unfortunately Sub-Zero service people charge a lot, and new units are

At 25 years old, there's no reason to call the sub zero people.  There
are any number of independents who can work on them.

>
> Any advice would be very welcome.  I do not want to have to pay somebody
> several hundred dollars per year to keep the refrigerator going, and I really
> do not want to pay $6000+ for a new one.  Every refrigerator sold in the size
> I need (24x48") is just as expensive.

It's possible to replace the coils (probably what's leaking) and
compressor.  That's a lot less than a new one, but still a big chunk
of cash.  On the other hand, a new fridge will use a quarter the
electricity (really!) yours does.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jan  8 08:40:00 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:40:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
In-Reply-To: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>

Doug,

Have you tried cleaning the condenser coils? I have a Sub Zero also and 
that has been the main reason for poor cooling. I also once had the 
problem of the defrost timer not working, which caused the compressors 
to not turn on at all, but if you are getting cooling at all, that would 
not be the problem.

It seems to me that just having shut off valves on the schraeder valve 
would not keep all the freon in the system because some of it will fill 
the hose(s), especially when you bleed them to get the air out. Any 
freon that makes it past the valve will be lost to the system, so you 
might want to add some back in, even if the gauges show a proper charge 
on the system.

As for the escaping freon when disconnecting the hoses, I just press the 
hose into contact with the schraeder valve and unscrew the hose nut. 
When it is loose, I lift the hose off the fitting and the schraeder 
valve seals right away. The only thing that vents is the freon in the hose.

Good luck.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Doug Braun, On 1/8/2009 8:38 AM:
> Hello,
>
> Here's another freon-related question: 
>
> My house has a 25-year-old built-in Sub-Zero refrigerator that is cooling
> poorly.  Unfortunately Sub-Zero service people charge a lot, and new units are
> breathtakingly overpriced.  Each of the refrigerator and freezer compressors
> has the standard high and low side Schraeder-style fittings (like tire valve
> stems, but a bit bigger).  I have a manifold gauge set that would attach to
> these, but during the process of attaching or removing the hoses, a lot of
> freon leaks out of the connections.
>
> So how can I work around this problem?  The gauge set came with adapters that
> attach to modern car R-134A ports, and have knobs that open the internal
> valves after the adapters have been securely attached to the ports.
>
> Are there equivalent adapters that attach to the older-style Schraeder
> fittings?
> Or do A/C techs simply attach and detach the hoses quickly and not worry about
> the freon that leaks out in the process?
>
> Any advice would be very welcome.  I do not want to have to pay somebody
> several hundred dollars per year to keep the refrigerator going, and I really
> do not want to pay $6000+ for a new one.  Every refrigerator sold in the size
> I need (24x48") is just as expensive.
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1881 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 5:59 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From mattw at webtripper.com  Thu Jan  8 09:10:21 2009
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:10:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>

I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I do know my folks Sub Zero had 
cooling problems and it was related to fans, I think both fans for the 
cooling units (there are 2 IIRC) and for circulation in the fridge/freezer.

I remember them having to set up a box fan to blow on the condensors on 
top of the fridge.
One other time they just had to empty the fridge until parts came in.

No freon/compressor work has been done on this unit that I know of.

Are all you fans working?

On a side not does any one know why ice cubes won't freeze properly in 
this overpriced piece of @#%$ (sorry, I actually like the thing, but it 
can't make ice to save it's @#$%#@ life).

The water comes out ok, but it doesn't freeze completely before being 
dumped.  The water then leaks out of the cubes and freezes into one big 
block.

There is no timing adjustment that I can find, either in the freezer or 
in any of the online manuals/parts diagrams.


Matt Wehland

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan  8 09:28:05 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:28:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <741215.2604.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, several time a year I remove the grille and vacuum and blow out the
condenser, and make sure all the fans are OK.  This fridge has five motors,
and most of them run all the time.  I don't see how they can claim that S-Zs
are more energy-efficient than other fridges!

(Actually there are seven motors:  2 compressors, one condenser fan, two
interior fans, the defroster timer, and the icemaker.)

Fortunately my ice maker works fine, even when the freezer temp is higher than
it should be.

Doug

--- On Thu, 1/8/09, Matt Wehland <mattw at webtripper.com> wrote:
From: Matt Wehland <mattw at webtripper.com>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 11:10 AM

I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I do know my folks Sub Zero had
cooling problems and it was related to fans, I think both fans for the
cooling units (there are 2 IIRC) and for circulation in the fridge/freezer.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jan  8 09:31:48 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:31:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>

On the bottom of the ice maker mold there is a thermal switch. If it is 
not working correctly it can cause the system to dump ice early or late.

The problem I had with my ice maker is that the Teflon lining started 
coming out in pieces. Sub Zero wanted about $250 for the ice maker, as 
no parts are available. I found a fellow on eBay who sold me an ice 
maker that was an exact match for about $100. Turns out the ice maker is 
purchased from Maytag, I think. I don't have his email at this time, a 
system crash wiped all of my old email away, but I can probably find his 
contact information on eBay.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Matt Wehland, On 1/8/2009 10:10 AM:
> I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I do know my folks Sub Zero had 
> cooling problems and it was related to fans, I think both fans for the 
> cooling units (there are 2 IIRC) and for circulation in the 
> fridge/freezer.
>
> I remember them having to set up a box fan to blow on the condensors 
> on top of the fridge.
> One other time they just had to empty the fridge until parts came in.
>
> No freon/compressor work has been done on this unit that I know of.
>
> Are all you fans working?
>
> On a side not does any one know why ice cubes won't freeze properly in 
> this overpriced piece of @#%$ (sorry, I actually like the thing, but 
> it can't make ice to save it's @#$%#@ life).
>
> The water comes out ok, but it doesn't freeze completely before being 
> dumped.  The water then leaks out of the cubes and freezes into one 
> big block.
>
> There is no timing adjustment that I can find, either in the freezer 
> or in any of the online manuals/parts diagrams.
>
>
> Matt Wehland
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1881 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 5:59 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan  8 09:40:27 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:40:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Freon Leak detectors
In-Reply-To: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20090107211138.01c84d98@cox.net>
	<335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <25d001c971af$d02ac850$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> So how can I work around this problem?

As noted, check for any other problems first.  If the sight glass shows the
system is still full of Freon, then it's unlikely that the gauges will show
you any other problem that doesn't require opening the system anyway.  My
point being that the gauges are the last approach, not the first.

One thing that might not be obvious at first is whether the blowers are
turning full speed.  A dry bearing can sometimes kill the fan rpm without
blowing a fuse or burning up the motor (immediately anyway).

As a side note, my Dad once found a major installation where the blowers
were turning backwards!

>   The gauge set came with adapters
> that
> attach to modern car R-134A ports, and have knobs that open the internal
> valves after the adapters have been securely attached to the ports.

As noted, you still have to purge the hoses.

> Or do A/C techs simply attach and detach the hoses quickly and not worry
> about
> the freon that leaks out in the process?

That's the way we did it in the old days.  Note that you should try to not
have any liquid present; if it's only vapor then you shouldn't lose too
much.  Usually, turning off the compressor and waiting for the liquid to
settle is enough to get it away from the fittings.

> I do not want to have to pay somebody
> several hundred dollars per year to keep the refrigerator going,

If you are having to add Freon every year, then I would definitely suggest
finding and fixing the leak.

>  and I really
> do not want to pay $6000+ for a new one.  

Besides power consumption, another thing to consider is Freon availability.
While it's certainly not cheap now, the EPA's stated goal is to make it
totally unavailable in the US.  That could still happen.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan  8 09:44:03 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:44:03 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com><4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <25d101c971b0$511d0950$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> On the bottom of the ice maker mold there is a thermal switch. If it is
> not working correctly it can cause the system to dump ice early or late.

Ditto.  There may even be an adjustment on it; but if not, replace it.

Randall

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jan  8 09:45:37 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:45:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <741215.2604.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <741215.2604.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49662DB1.4070001@hornesystemstx.com>

My Sub Zero is about 15 years old. It is a 532. We've owned it for about 
11 years and have always had a problem in humid weather that ice will 
form on the top of the freezer on the sloped part of the case, right 
inside the door gasket. If left long enough it wil keep the door from 
closing. The gasket is sealing all around, but I assume I have an air 
leak somewhere. I've the freezer completely and checked each place where 
wires, hoses, etc. come into the box, but can't find any leaks. I've 
also added more putty to the penetrations, but that didn't help.

Does anyone know if there is supposed to be a heater above the freezer 
door like the one in the mullion between the two doors? If so, it isn't 
working and it looks like it would be a real pain to replace!If I had 
some idea as to the structure of the freezer top I might be able to cut 
into the top of the case and replace/add a heater from outside the case, 
but that would be a bit more work than I would like to do.

Thanks for your help.

Peace,
Pat

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From mattw at webtripper.com  Thu Jan  8 10:02:34 2009
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:02:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>

Pat Horne wrote:
> On the bottom of the ice maker mold there is a thermal switch. If it 
> is not working correctly it can cause the system to dump ice early or 
> late.
>

Thanks for the info.
I will be house sitting for them soon and will check into this.

They do not use ice much, so they don't care.

I am a big ice user and it drives me nuts that such a nice unit can't 
make decent ice.

They also have a 5 star stove/oven that bugs me.
I love the stove, but the oven's cook unevenly, you have to keep turning 
your pan of cookies/muffins around.

Any ideas on this one?

Shop Talk content- I like to be able to have a nice freshly baked cookie 
and iced drink after using Dad's 4 post lift :-)


Thanks,

Matt Wehland

From eabb at loc.gov  Thu Jan  8 10:39:27 2009
From: eabb at loc.gov (Eugene D Abbondelo)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:39:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
	<496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>

Fridges that don't make ice; stoves that cook unevenly--brings up the
question:

Sub Zero, Viking, Wolf, Thermador, etc. are supposed to be the Snap-Ons of the
cooking industry.  Are they really that much better than the other brands out
there and are they deserving of the not-insignificant extra amount of money
they cost?

Gene (kitchen due for remodelling--wife wants bling)

>>> Matt Wehland <mattw at webtripper.com> 1/8/2009 12:02 PM >>>
Pat Horne wrote:
> On the bottom of the ice maker mold there is a thermal switch. If it
> is not working correctly it can cause the system to dump ice early or
> late.
>

Thanks for the info.
I will be house sitting for them soon and will check into this.

They do not use ice much, so they don't care.

I am a big ice user and it drives me nuts that such a nice unit can't
make decent ice.

They also have a 5 star stove/oven that bugs me.
I love the stove, but the oven's cook unevenly, you have to keep turning
your pan of cookies/muffins around.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Jan  8 10:44:14 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:44:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
	<496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
	<4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <20090108124231.X98997@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, Eugene D Abbondelo wrote:
> Sub Zero, Viking, Wolf, Thermador, etc. are supposed to be the Snap-Ons of the
> cooking industry.  Are they really that much better than the other brands out
> there and are they deserving of the not-insignificant extra amount of money
> they cost?
>
> Gene (kitchen due for remodelling--wife wants bling)

    And why do stainless-steel-surfaced appliances cost at least $200 more 
than the same model in white or black?

--
  David Hillman ( similar boat )

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 10:44:48 2009
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:44:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
	<496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
	<4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <bdde53220901080944x270877cdqca78c5bc02ef3a49@mail.gmail.com>

I watched a 'How It's Made' on one of the high-end range manufacturers.
Having looked inside a GE range and then seeing the construction of the $$$
brand I could understand why they cost so much more.  See if you can find
that episode on YouTube or similar and see what you think.  None of that
stuff makes sense for our current 'builder-basic' home, but we're planning
to buy the nice stuff where we thinks it matters when we build the next
place.

-Paul
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Eugene D Abbondelo <eabb at loc.gov> wrote:

> Fridges that don't make ice; stoves that cook unevenly--brings up the
> question:
>
> Sub Zero, Viking, Wolf, Thermador, etc. are supposed to be the Snap-Ons of
> the
> cooking industry.  Are they really that much better than the other brands
> out
> there and are they deserving of the not-insignificant extra amount of money
> they cost?
>
> Gene (kitchen due for remodelling--wife wants bling)

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jan  8 11:03:26 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:03:26 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
Message-ID: <010820091803.22797.49663FEE000360150000590D22155612649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com>

>     And why do stainless-steel-surfaced appliances cost at least $200 more 
> than the same model in white or black?

Stainless steel costs more to buy and is more challenging to work than mild steel.  If this were not so, we would all have stainless-steel cars.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 11:04:22 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:04:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <010820091803.22797.49663FEE000360150000590D22155612649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <010820091803.22797.49663FEE000360150000590D22155612649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901081004j37dbf722ped225be93ee181d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:03 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> From: David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com>
>
>>     And why do stainless-steel-surfaced appliances cost at least $200 more
>> than the same model in white or black?
>
> Stainless steel costs more to buy and is more challenging to work than mild steel.  If this were not so, we would all have stainless-steel cars.
>

Wait, doesn't e3veryone drive a delorian?
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 11:07:07 2009
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:07:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40901081004j37dbf722ped225be93ee181d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010820091803.22797.49663FEE000360150000590D22155612649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40901081004j37dbf722ped225be93ee181d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220901081007v19478e12p9478ae85d9a1b422@mail.gmail.com>

Most of the time, not even the owners do... ;)

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wait, doesn't e3veryone drive a delorian?
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 11:11:38 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:11:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
	<496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
	<4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901081011g58324f31n751ef62b689e0dd@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Eugene D Abbondelo <eabb at loc.gov> wrote:
> Fridges that don't make ice; stoves that cook unevenly--brings up the
> question:
>
> Sub Zero, Viking, Wolf, Thermador, etc. are supposed to be the Snap-Ons of the
> cooking industry.  Are they really that much better than the other brands out
> there and are they deserving of the not-insignificant extra amount of money
> they cost?

The answer ranges from "not really" to "absolutely not".  Some of them
are better than mainstream brands, or have features not found
elsewhere.  But that's less true than it was just  a few years ago.
And you pay an awful lot for the name.  And some of the stuff is just
utter crap:  my brother has a very fancy (it was in the house when
they bought it) Dacor range.  The oven door hinges are not capable of
supporting the weight of the door.  They bend.  That causes the switch
that turns the light on and off to flicker, which causes the switch to
heat up, which burns out a trace on the circuit board that controls
the oven, which results in  1500 dollar repair bill.  The thing is
defective as designed, and if they sold more than a few thousand of
them, they wouldn't be able to get away with selling such crap.

A real commercial range, which costs less than your moderately fancy
one from maytag, will not having any problem having the oven door used
as a step stool.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mattw at webtripper.com  Thu Jan  8 11:19:06 2009
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:19:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
	<496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
	<4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <4966439A.5030003@webtripper.com>

Eugene D Abbondelo wrote:
> Fridges that don't make ice; stoves that cook unevenly--brings up the question:
>
> Sub Zero, Viking, Wolf, Thermador, etc. are supposed to be the Snap-Ons of the cooking industry.  Are they really that much better than the other brands out there and are they deserving of the not-insignificant extra amount of money they cost?
>
> Gene (kitchen due for remodelling--wife wants bling)
I'm really not sure.
The appliances at my folks house are now ~15 years old.
The fridge has had the little things replaced (swiches, lamps, fans etc.)
I think they cleaned up the burners on the stove once, not sure they did 
anything to the oven (I haven't cooked in those ovens in a few years).

They sure look nice and I do like the fridge except for the ice thing.

The fridges are cool, but keep in mind that once you build out the 
kitchen for them you are stuck with that expensive style.

My favorite stove/oven combo was at a piece of @#$% rental. 
The appliances were older than I am as the owner was known for 
collecting junk and then building a house out of it (oh the stories 
about this guy).

Dual ovens over/under config (No Name that I remember) were great until 
the wiring (owners wiring) burst into flames one morning.

A 6 burner electric stove that was push button controlled (GE I think).  
I hate electric and thought this thing would be a joke, but I really 
loved it.

I think that one big thing with the more expensive ovens is insulation.  
Cheap ovens cook your house, I think that the more expensive ones keep 
the heat in the oven, not the house.

My folks also have a range hood with fan that will suck up small animals 
on high with variable control, real nice.  The hood has sharp corners 
right at head height for me, not so nice.

I like to cook and I think I would lean towards finding a restaurant 
supply house and checking out real ovens/stoves.  They can't cost more 
than the expensive consumer stuff, can it?

I would have a separate stove top 6-8 burners and over/under ovens 
mounted at a decent height, no bending to check on food.
One thing with commercial stoves is you need larger than standard gas 
lines, IIRC.

Seperate Ice Maker.

2 refrigerators, one for raw food, one for cooked (maybe split up this way)

At least 3 sinks or 2 doubles.

Commercial overhead super hot water (180F+) wand for cleaning, used 
something like this at my first job.

2 dishwashers.

Ok so I've got no Shop Talk content any more.

Matt Wehland

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan  8 11:30:29 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:30:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220901080944x270877cdqca78c5bc02ef3a49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <579447.18995.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think I saw that episode (was it Wolf brand?), but except for the stainless steel door and handle, the construction didn't look that different than I wold expect for any stove.

And Sub-Zero refrigerators cost a fortune even if you supply your own door panels, like I would.

Doug



--- On Thu, 1/8/09, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
To: "Eugene D Abbondelo" <eabb at loc.gov>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 12:44 PM

I watched a 'How It's Made' on one of the high-end range
manufacturers.
Having looked inside a GE range and then seeing the construction of the $$$
brand I could understand why they cost so much more.  See if you can find
that episode on YouTube or similar and see what you think.  None of that
stuff makes sense for our current 'builder-basic' home, but we're
planning
to buy the nice stuff where we thinks it matters when we build the next
place.

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Jan  8 15:27:33 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:27:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220901080944x270877cdqca78c5bc02ef3a49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
	<496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
	<4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
	<bdde53220901080944x270877cdqca78c5bc02ef3a49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49667DD5.5090705@dimebank.com>

I don't know anything about high-end refrigerators, except that there's a SubZero model where you 
can separate the compressor and tuck it away to remove the noise from the kitchen.

The difference between a commercial range and a home range, even from the commercial manufacturers, 
is striking - and not just in cost. Manufacturing quality is certainly a big part of it, as others 
have mentioned. Beauty of finish just isn't a concern for commercial stuff.

But the big difference is the amount of heat you can get from a real commercial range. Go to a 
restaurant with an open kitchen and look at how they cook: the flames are either off, or on high. 
There's probably one burner that is specifically set up to simmer. One burner from a commercial 
stove can provide as many BTUs as all four on some home ranges! It enables/requires a completely 
different style of cooking - and perhaps different cookware.

A friend put a commercial Viking in his redone kitchen and loved it. The city made him put in an 
extra large exhaust hood. He wanted to put in a Salamander, too (he's a bit wacky), but he would 
have had to upgrade the gas service to the house, and put in an even larger exhaust...

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 15:33:22 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:33:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sub Zero (Was- Freon Leak detectors)
In-Reply-To: <4966439A.5030003@webtripper.com>
References: <335764.95052.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49661E50.3010406@hornesystemstx.com>
	<4966256D.7070301@webtripper.com>
	<49662A74.9080500@hornesystemstx.com>
	<496631AA.7000104@webtripper.com>
	<4965F3FF020000740005A638@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
	<4966439A.5030003@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901081433i778497e9x401652d5c95a15d6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Matt Wehland <mattw at webtripper.com> wrote:
>
> I like to cook and I think I would lean towards finding a restaurant supply
> house and checking out real ovens/stoves.  They can't cost more than the
> expensive consumer stuff, can it?

Substantially less than the overpriced faux-pro crap.  (36" viking:
about six grand.  36" commercial stove, with better specs (twice the
burner output, at least): less than two.)  But commercial stuff has
drawbacks, too.  They're not zero-clearance, so you have to have
clearance (six to eight inches) from combustible materials, though
some places will let you use tile or stainless barriers.  They're not
normal household depth, though that's not necessarily a problem, if
you're building around them.  They require much better venting, and in
some places, make up air.  They're also typically standing pilot lit,
not electrically.

> I would have a separate stove top 6-8 burners and over/under ovens mounted
> at a decent height, no bending to check on food.
> One thing with commercial stoves is you need larger than standard gas lines,
> IIRC.

Depends on the stove, and your gas, but quite possible.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Thu Jan  8 22:36:21 2009
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 21:36:21 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kitchen stuff
Message-ID: <E1E7A11473B6484EB2E4B076AE35A259@OFFICEPC>

Others wrote:

> Sub Zero, Viking, Wolf, Thermador, etc. are supposed to be the 

> Snap-Ons of the cooking industry.  Are they really that much better 

> than the other brands out there and are they deserving of the 

> not-insignificant extra amount of money they cost?

 

>A real commercial range, which costs less than your moderately fancy one
from maytag, will not having any problem having the oven door >used as a
step stool.

 

A chef friend said that when he shopped for his restaurant the salesman
opened the door of a Montague stove and jumped up and down on it.  Sold!

 

>My folks also have a range hood with fan that will suck up small animals 

>on high with variable control, real nice.  The hood has sharp corners 

>right at head height for me, not so nice.

Look for a Vent-a-Hood fan assembly.  They have 1" 45 degree chamfers on the
corners, so no creasing your forehead when you bump them. 

 

 

We have a Thermador stove.  It is fantastic.  The burners throw an amazing
amount of heat, even set for propane.  In our last house we put in a Wolf.
Not well made - one of the igniters went out and it was a fortune for a
replacement, but the guy at the parts store was helpful: found another brand
part that fit (just had to splice in longer leads).

 

A second for the two dishwasher recommendation.  I'd actually rather have 5
or 6 dishwashers and no dish storage.  You run them when full and never have
to put dishes away.  But my wife wouldn't go for it.

 

Mark Miller

From mark at bradakis.com  Thu Jan  8 22:46:49 2009
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:46:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kitchen stuff
In-Reply-To: <E1E7A11473B6484EB2E4B076AE35A259@OFFICEPC>
References: <E1E7A11473B6484EB2E4B076AE35A259@OFFICEPC>
Message-ID: <4966E4C9.2000007@bradakis.com>

For those of you who enjoy cooking, as this thread on
kitchen equipments seems to indicate, when I was setting up
some different format Team.Net forums I did one on food.

http://www.team.net/forums

mjb.

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Jan  8 23:20:11 2009
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 01:20:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812250956v7a870773qd7d3b5cff3ec6bd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <abb8688a0812242005r75db8f98g6236023b92786bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081225050923.XCEN7108.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<2400a5d40812250956v7a870773qd7d3b5cff3ec6bd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c97222$541b7570$fc526050$@mele@usermail.com>

I've been away...

thanks to all for good thoughts on the engines and the project. 
I'll keep my eye out for donor(s) and options.  It's a project several cars
away, but I wan tto be able to buy what I need when it appears...

PM

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Jan  9 17:19:18 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:19:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
Message-ID: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys,

Does anyone have a RotoZip saw, or have you used one?  Are they worth 
having?  What have you found that they work well for?

I need to cut some drywall, and heard them suggested

   -Thanks, Wayne

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Fri Jan  9 17:36:48 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:36:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0901091636r11f099c3nd63b9bc715c172fa@mail.gmail.com>

They do work well.  They will cut drywall, wood, metal, tile, etc.
Like a Dremel tool on steroids.  I usually use a dremel for drywall,
it is plenty powerful.  But the RotoZip is a more powerful tool.  If
all you are ever going to do with it light jobs, the Dremel is
cheaper.  If you need the extra muscle, the RotoZip is worth having.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
> Does anyone have a RotoZip saw, or have you used one?  Are they worth
> having?  What have you found that they work well for?
>
> I need to cut some drywall, and heard them suggested
>
>  -Thanks, Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From racegt6 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 17:46:36 2009
From: racegt6 at yahoo.com (Charlie Schlismann)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:46:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <904245.16711.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> Hey Guys,
> 
> Does anyone have a RotoZip saw, or have you used one?  Are
> they worth having?  What have you found that they work well
> for?
> 
> I need to cut some drywall, and heard them suggested
> 
>   -Thanks, Wayne


Wayne,

Lot's more muscle than a Dremel IMHO.  I have a right angle attachment as well, very useful.  Bought mine from CPO Bosch http://www.cpotools.com/ (factory reconditioned or some such) at a decent saving.  Think they're having some sales now. 

A good tool for some tasks and quality has been great for me.

Good luck,
Charlie

From bill at gingerich.us  Fri Jan  9 17:49:12 2009
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:49:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
Message-ID: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>

My '93 Escort wagon has developed a gas leak in the line that runs from the
tank to the engine.  I've noticed a gas smell around the car the last few
days, and there was small puddle under the drivers' seat this morning.  I
haven't put the car up of the jack stands yet, so I don't know the exact
setup.  I'm assuming it is a metal line.  My question is this: what are my
options to repair it?  Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber fuel
injection hose to replace it?  Or should I be using metal tubing?  If metal,
what types of fittings are best?  Are standard compression fittings OK? 

 

The other question is if the line is leaking at that one spot, should I
replace the whole line from tank to engine just because the rest might start
leaking too?  I don't want to risk blowing myself up (no, I don't smoke) but
I'm also financially challenged right now, so unnecessary expenses would
like to be avoided.

 

What say the group?

 

BillG

OKC

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan  9 17:55:53 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:55:53 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
Message-ID: <020901c972be$3082a1f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber
> fuel
> injection hose to replace it?

IMO, that will work.  Probably safer to replace the whole line with metal
but that should be good enough.  Worst case, it will leak again and you'll
be back where you are today.

But then I've been known to keep driving a Triumph that would drip liquid
fuel onto a glowing exhaust manifold, so YMMV <G>

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan  9 17:57:43 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:57:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
Message-ID: <430517.76049.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

do you mean a puddle on the garage floor, or a puddle inside the car?

Is the car injected or carbeurated?  Most fuel-injected cars have the pump in
the gas tank, and the fuel line has 40 or so pounds of pressure.  So you have
to be more careful with repairs than with an older carburated car where there
is little pressure (or even suction) in the fuel line.

Doug

--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:
From: Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 7:49 PM

My '93 Escort wagon has developed a gas leak in the line that runs from the
tank to the engine.  I've noticed a gas smell around the car the last few
days, and there was small puddle under the drivers' seat this morning.  I
haven't put the car up of the jack stands yet, so I don't know the
exact
setup.  I'm assuming it is a metal line.  My question is this: what are my
options to repair it?  Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber fuel
injection hose to replace it?  Or should I be using metal tubing?  If metal,
what types of fittings are best?  Are standard compression fittings OK?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan  9 18:00:19 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:00:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <020901c972be$3082a1f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <661568.78081.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Triumph Spitfires have a short section of rubber line where the fuel line
exits out the bottom of the trunk.  If that bit rots out, the entire contents
of the gas tank can drain out onto the floor.

Fortunately it never happened to me...

Doug

--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 7:55 PM

> Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber
> fuel
> injection hose to replace it?

IMO, that will work.  Probably safer to replace the whole line with metal
but that should be good enough.  Worst case, it will leak again and you'll
be back where you are today.

But then I've been known to keep driving a Triumph that would drip liquid
fuel onto a glowing exhaust manifold, so YMMV <G>

From bill at gingerich.us  Fri Jan  9 18:11:12 2009
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:11:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <430517.76049.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<430517.76049.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <59ED7D5C1B1D48569ED78D94F7D7E66A@shack2>

Doug,

 

Puddle is on the ground.  Car is FI.  Yes, the pump is in the tank.  I
understand the higher pressures than the carbureted versions.  Hence the
question.  If it was my Spitfire, I'd just buy rubber fuel line an a couple
of clamps. 

 

  _____  

From: Doug Braun [mailto:doug at dougbraun.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 6:58 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net; Bill Gingerich
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair

 


do you mean a puddle on the garage floor, or a puddle inside the car?

Is the car injected or carbeurated?  Most fuel-injected cars have the pump
in the gas tank, and the fuel line has 40 or so pounds of pressure.  So you
have to be more careful with repairs than with an older carburated car where
there is little pressure (or even suction) in the fuel line.

Doug

--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:

From: Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 7:49 PM

My '93 Escort wagon has developed a gas leak in the line that runs from the


tank to the engine.  I've noticed a
 gas smell around the car the last few


days, and there was small puddle under the drivers' seat this morning.  I


haven't put the car up of the jack stands yet, so I don't know the


exact


setup.  I'm assuming it is a metal line.  My question is this: what are my


options to repair it?  Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber fuel


injection hose to replace it?  Or should I be using metal tubing?  If metal,


what types of fittings are best?  Are standard compression fittings OK? 

From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Jan  9 18:22:29 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:22:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <4967F686.6020102@milleredp.com>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<020901c972be$3082a1f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4967F686.6020102@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <4967F855.2000206@milleredp.com>

  Randall wrote:
>> Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber
>> fuel
>> injection hose to replace it?
>
> IMO, that will work.  Probably safer to replace the whole line with metal
> but that should be good enough.  Worst case, it will leak again and 
> you'll
> be back where you are today.

Most Fords of that vintage have plastic fuel lines, the fix I'm
acquainted with for them involves pushing barbed fittings into the line
(sometimes accompanied by a little heat-gun persuasion.)

John.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jan  9 19:09:37 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 20:09:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2><020901c972be$3082a1f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><4967F686.6020102@milleredp.com>
	<4967F855.2000206@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <9C17663F521348CEB730B33C9BBC1134@KARL>

If it's steel, an alternative source of new, very formable metal line (as 
opposed paying the dealer a zillion dollars for the factory part) would be 
standard hydraulic tubing.  Yes, it does come in large enough sizes at your 
local NAPA or whatever -- few bucks a length.  If you need to join into an 
existing steel line and don't have a double-flaring tool, there are 
compression-type hydraulic fittings in the same section of the store. 
Again, pretty inexpensive.

Karl


>> IMO, that will work.  Probably safer to replace the whole line with metal
>> but that should be good enough.  Worst case, it will leak again and 
>> you'll
>> be back where you are today.
>
> Most Fords of that vintage have plastic fuel lines, the fix I'm
> acquainted with for them involves pushing barbed fittings into the line
> (sometimes accompanied by a little heat-gun persuasion.)

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jan  9 19:19:18 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:19:18 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <020901c972be$3082a1f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<020901c972be$3082a1f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <496805A6.7090201@hornesystemstx.com>

I'm with Randall, with one addition. Use a flaring tool and put a small 
flare on the end of the line so the hose won't slide off. If you have a 
double flare tool, all the better, just put the bulge in the tubing and 
put the hose on. I had a hose slide off a transmission oil cooler line 
once. When I complained to the shop that did the work they told me that 
kind of thing was why that particular mechanic was not working for them 
any more!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall, On 1/9/2009 6:55 PM:
>> Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber
>> fuel
>> injection hose to replace it?
>>     
>
> IMO, that will work.  Probably safer to replace the whole line with metal
> but that should be good enough.  Worst case, it will leak again and you'll
> be back where you are today.
>
> But then I've been known to keep driving a Triumph that would drip liquid
> fuel onto a glowing exhaust manifold, so YMMV <G>
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1884 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 8:38 AM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Jan  9 19:23:04 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:23:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <49680688.9040308@hornesystemstx.com>

Wayne,

What kind of drywall cutting are you needing to do? I use a Rotozip to 
cut out electrical outlets, etc. in drywall, but it makes too much dust 
and takes too long for most cutting. I use either a knife to score the 
paper on one side, then snap it off, or if it is for a convoluted cut, I 
use a coarse-tooth hand saw. Neither one makes much dust at all, and are 
faster than using a power tool.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Wayne, On 1/9/2009 6:19 PM:
> Hey Guys,
>
> Does anyone have a RotoZip saw, or have you used one?  Are they worth 
> having?  What have you found that they work well for?
>
> I need to cut some drywall, and heard them suggested
>
>   -Thanks, Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1884 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 8:38 AM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Fri Jan  9 20:39:49 2009
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 21:39:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <C0782A78F8944200AC5414047D3C6E9D@Dell9200>

Wayne,

I have had one for about 10 years and it is great.  Just right for 
electrical box cuts in drywall and really great for tile.  I also have the 
circle cutter device and if you need a 18 inch perfect circle cut in a piece 
of plywood they work well.  It was one of those tools I thought I might use 
once but has turned out to be well worth the about $150 bucks or so.

Mark
Nashville
http://www.arrestmered.com



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 6:19 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws



Hey Guys,

Does anyone have a RotoZip saw, or have you used one?  Are they worth
having?  What have you found that they work well for?

I need to cut some drywall, and heard them suggested

   -Thanks, Wayne
You are subscribed as mark at nashvilletn.org

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive 

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Jan  9 21:30:35 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:30:35 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <C0782A78F8944200AC5414047D3C6E9D@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <OFE47D936D.1C8DFC3D-ON4325753A.00196453-4325753A.0019A771@mail.megageek.com>

I have one of these also. While the tools is great as a higher powered 
dremel, I always seem to break bits when I try to cut something.  Even 
drywall (may I'm not patience enough.)

They do have a drywall bit that pushes the dust into the wall that works 
well and keeps the mess down.

They also have a die grinder attachment that worked pretty well.  I don't 
use the tool alot, but it's a nie "go to" tool when there is a project 
that needs something extra.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 01:41:10 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:41:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>

I used to be a quattro guy and Audi attached their hard fuel lines 
with these big rubberized clamps that collected moisture and 
routinely rotted away the fuel lines at year 15 or so for us lucky 
ones in the northern climes.  Needless to say, I've replaced a few....

Metal hard line, bent with a tubing bender to match up as best you 
can.  Flare the ends, not to use a fitting but to give the 
FUEL-INJECTOR-RUBBER-REINFORCED fuel line a "barb".  Double clamp the 
rubber fuel lines that you use to connect in the replacement line.  I 
painted the hardline with POR 15 where the clamps were but this was 
probably overkill - didn't plan on owning the car for another 15 
years but never wanted to re-replace the lines either...  :-o

Nowadays, I may use plastic lines if the FLAPS had that in stock...


At 1/9/2009 at 19:49, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Bill 
Gingerich's keyboard and said:
>My '93 Escort wagon has developed a gas leak in the line that runs from the
>tank to the engine.  I've noticed a gas smell around the car the last few
>days, and there was small puddle under the drivers' seat this morning.  I
>haven't put the car up of the jack stands yet, so I don't know the exact
>setup.  I'm assuming it is a metal line.  My question is this: what are my
>options to repair it?  Can I cut out the leaking section and use rubber fuel
>injection hose to replace it?  Or should I be using metal tubing?  If metal,
>what types of fittings are best?  Are standard compression fittings OK?
>
>
>
>The other question is if the line is leaking at that one spot, should I
>replace the whole line from tank to engine just because the rest might start
>leaking too?  I don't want to risk blowing myself up (no, I don't smoke) but
>I'm also financially challenged right now, so unnecessary expenses would
>like to be avoided.


Cheers!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Jan 10 07:10:00 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:10:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
Message-ID: <4968AC38.9030803@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys,

I'm in need of some kind of high-temp electrical insulation.  Trying to 
repair an electric stove-top.  The wiring to the heating elements has 
some kind of braided insulation (maybe fiberglass?)  Manufacturing 
defect got one too hot, and a 3" section of insulation is burned away.

I couldn't find anything at Lowes to fix it.  McMaster Carr has a couple 
products that look promising:  high-temp braided fiberglass sleeve (no 
mention of electrical properties), and high-temp silicone electrical 
tape.  But I'd really like to get a hold of something locally this 
weekend.  Suggestions?

   -Wayne

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 10 09:42:46 2009
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:42:46 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>

Wayne - They work well, but can also make lots of dust.  Think of them 
as a little router.

My last use was trimming drywall for an attic hatch.  I had a hatch made 
of thin plywood that fit well for years, but wanted to make it look 
pretty to sell the house.   I cut a piece of drywall slightly oversize 
and glued them together with liquid nails.  I then took the RotoZip with 
a guidepoint bit to follow the plywood edge and trimmed the drywall to 
exactly match the plywood - like a router with a template.

Another nice use was cutting almost a full circle in the edge of a tile 
for a neighbor.  This was reasonably quick with a carbide bit.  He'd 
broken several tiles trying to do this with nippers.

My biggest use was repairing extensive cracks in my plaster walls and 
ceilings.  I needed to clean out the cracks and scraping overhead was 
rough.  The RotoZip made it much easier, though it went through a bunch 
of bits.  None snapped, just worn down.  I tried a 1/8" drill bit and it 
wore away as well.

If I were doing lots of drywall, I'd use it there as well for electrical 
boxes.  Just identify a point in the box, partially secure the drywall, 
plunge into the box, find the edge, route the box, then fully secure the 
sheet.  It will make lots of dust, so I wouldn't use it in an occupied area.

I may use it more since my Dremel just broke.  Something in the way the 
motor connects to the chuck failed.

Brian

Wayne wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
> Does anyone have a RotoZip saw, or have you used one?  Are they worth 
> having?  What have you found that they work well for?
>
> I need to cut some drywall, and heard them suggested
>
>   -Thanks, Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 10 09:58:06 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:58:06 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
In-Reply-To: <4968AC38.9030803@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <20090110165806.FYPI21495.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> But I'd really like to 
> get a hold of something locally this weekend.  Suggestions?

If you were in my area, you could come by and borrow some.  Otherwise, I'd
try calling around to places that work on electric ranges and see if they
have it.

I got mine from MMC.

Possibly you could "make do" with header wrap or muffler bandage.  Should be
available at your FLAPS.  Tie it in place with steel wire.

Randall

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sat Jan 10 10:07:46 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:07:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
In-Reply-To: <20090110165806.FYPI21495.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20090110165806.FYPI21495.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <4968D5E2.3020507@hornesystemstx.com>

If there is a small appliance repair shop nearby they may have some 
fiberglass tubing that is used in toaster ovens, etc.

BTW, what is FLAPS, I've never heard of it?

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall, On 1/10/2009 10:58 AM:
>> But I'd really like to 
>> get a hold of something locally this weekend.  Suggestions?
>>     
>
> If you were in my area, you could come by and borrow some.  Otherwise, I'd
> try calling around to places that work on electric ranges and see if they
> have it.
>
> I got mine from MMC.
>
> Possibly you could "make do" with header wrap or muffler bandage.  Should be
> available at your FLAPS.  Tie it in place with steel wire.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:59 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From malaboge at aol.com  Sat Jan 10 10:10:52 2009
From: malaboge at aol.com (malaboge at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:10:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
In-Reply-To: <4968AC38.9030803@xxiii.com>
References: <4968AC38.9030803@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <8CB415D86A5EB4A-10C4-4BF@mblk-d42.sysops.aol.com>

Wayne-

One answer may be as near as the local hot rod shop.? There are spark plug sleeves utilized on certain air-cooled cars and most any small block chevvy hot rod.? These sleeves are a multi-layer fiberglass sort of material and are meant to withstand the heat of nearby exhaust manifolds so should withstand the rigors of home cookin.

not well insulated myself...
??????????????? Nick in Nor Cal

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
To: Shop Talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 6:10 am
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed


Hey Guys,?
?
I'm in need of some kind of high-temp electrical insulation. Trying to repair an electric stove-top. The wiring to the heating elements has some kind of braided insulation (maybe fiberglass?) Manufacturing defect got one too hot, and a 3" section of insulation is burned away.?
?
I couldn't find anything at Lowes to fix it. McMaster Carr has a couple products that look promising: high-temp braided fiberglass sleeve (no mention of electrical properties), and high-temp silicone electrical tape. But I'd really like to get a hold of something locally this weekend. Suggestions??
?
? -Wayne?
_______________________________________________?
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html?
?
You are subscribed as malaboge at aol.com?
?
Shop-talk mailing list?
?
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk?
?
http://www.team.net/archive?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 10 10:11:33 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:11:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090110171133.OIEO4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Nowadays, I may use plastic lines if the FLAPS had that in stock...

My 1970 Audi had plastic line from the tank to the engine.  After driving
through mixed snow, sand and gravel that was routinely thrown across
driveways by the snow plow, the line eventually abraded through and dumped
most of a tank of gas on the road.

If corrosion of metal is a problem, I'd go with brake line tubing.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 10 10:19:13 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:19:13 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
In-Reply-To: <4968D5E2.3020507@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <20090110171913.OMAQ4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> BTW, what is FLAPS, I've never heard of it?

Sorry ... Full Line Auto Parts Store (or alternatively Friendly Local Auto
Parts Store).  Eg NAPA or similar.

Randall

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Jan 10 13:25:41 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:25:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
In-Reply-To: <340E7288573940869FCB571BA58FC992@niolon>
References: <4968AC38.9030803@xxiii.com>
	<340E7288573940869FCB571BA58FC992@niolon>
Message-ID: <49690445.5080905@xxiii.com>

john niolon wrote:
> the fiberglass tubing will work fine... any electrical supply house 
> should have it in rolls... don't know where you are but 

Thanks for all the tips on the insulation.  A friend also suggested the 
car parts place, which I hadn't considered.

I got the oven going with a temporary fix.  I used teflon pipe tape on 
the wire;  figured this would handle the voltage and heat.  Then put 
some rubber fuel hose over that as a standoff from any hot parts.  It's 
good for under-hood temps, and I expected it would smoke a bunch before 
igniting.

With the oven working, I did some semi-destructive testing that may be 
of interest.  I had four materials:  teflon pipe tape, heat shrink 
tubing, vinyl electrical tape, and rubber fuel hose.  I put then in the 
oven on aluminum foil and cranked it to 250dF.

250dF:  heat shrink tube shrunk, all materials intact
350dF:  electrical tape melted, fuel hose smoking lightly (removed them 
from test)
400dF:  heat shrink "sticky" and starting to melt, but no worse than 
when normally heating to shrink (removed from test).  Teflon intact.
450dF:  Teflon intact.
500dF:  Teflon intact.

So I think I'm gonna leave the teflon on there, and just find some 
fiberglass sleeve to go over it for mechanical strength.

After the testing, I remembered I have that clear green masking tape for 
powder coating.  It's good at 400 - 450 in the PC oven.

   -Wayne

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 13:22:05 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:22:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
In-Reply-To: <20090110171913.OMAQ4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <4968D5E2.3020507@hornesystemstx.com>
	<20090110171913.OMAQ4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090110152135.024ea780@yahoo.com>

<McMahon voice>
Yes, you are correct, sir!
</McMahon voice>



At 1/10/2009 at 12:19, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Randall's 
keyboard and said:


>Friendly Local Auto Parts Store


Cheers!

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sat Jan 10 14:10:54 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:10:54 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] High-temp electrical insulation needed
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20090110152135.024ea780@yahoo.com>
References: <4968D5E2.3020507@hornesystemstx.com>
	<20090110171913.OMAQ4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090110152135.024ea780@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49690EDE.9070306@hornesystemstx.com>

Thanks to all who responded. I've been on auto groups for several 
decades (back when all we had were newsgroups) and never heard that one!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Richard Beels, On 1/10/2009 2:22 PM:
> <McMahon voice>
> Yes, you are correct, sir!
> </McMahon voice>
>
>
>
> At 1/10/2009 at 12:19, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Randall's 
> keyboard and said:
>
>
>> Friendly Local Auto Parts Store
>
>
> Cheers!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:59 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From jem at milleredp.com  Sat Jan 10 14:21:47 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:21:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <496910DB.4000608@milleredp.com>
References: <20090110171133.OIEO4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<496910DB.4000608@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <4969116B.5000804@milleredp.com>

Randall wrote:
> Nowadays, I may use plastic lines if the FLAPS had that in stock...

> My 1970 Audi had plastic line from the tank to the engine.  After driving
> through mixed snow, sand and gravel that was routinely thrown across
> driveways by the snow plow, the line eventually abraded through and 
> dumped
> most of a tank of gas on the road.

Saab solved that problem on the 99s and ur-900s - the plastic fuel lines
ran inside the car, under the back seat and up the left-side rocker panel.

On my '81 900T the lines ran right next to the rear-seat lower-cushion
latch, pretty much where the seat would sit on them.  Not sure if that
was a factory routing or a previous-owner bodge, but that got changed in
a hurry.

John.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sun Jan 11 06:13:46 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:13:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <430517.76049.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <160003013.1082531231679626068.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

what he said. I drove a '68 mustang around for several years with a section of rubber hose spliced into the metal line under the driver's seat after a jacking mishap. I'd give it a shot, even with an efi car, but look for leaks if it is efi. you don't want the splice flying off while driving and stranding you somewhere. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com> 
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net, "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us> 
Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 7:57:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair 

do you mean a puddle on the garage floor, or a puddle inside the car? 

Is the car injected or carbeurated? Most fuel-injected cars have the pump in 
the gas tank, and the fuel line has 40 or so pounds of pressure. So you have 
to be more careful with repairs than with an older carburated car where there 
is little pressure (or even suction) in the fuel line. 

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Jan 11 08:00:53 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:00:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
  <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Brian Kemp wrote:
> If I were doing lots of drywall, I'd use it there as well for electrical 
> boxes.  Just identify a point in the box, partially secure the drywall, 
> plunge into the box, find the edge, route the box, then fully secure the 
> sheet.  It will make lots of dust, so I wouldn't use it in an occupied area.

How do you do this without cutting into the wires, etc?

Mark

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 11 08:14:49 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:14:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W212AB2A5A222FB716D9C77E1DB0@phx.gbl>

I'm sure he was talking about adding new boxes.
This would imply that there would not be wires behind the wall you were
cutting.

By code the wire should be 1.5 inches below the surface.  I assume you can set
the depth of the blade, set it so that it just goes through the drywall.
Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that
is my car! See it moves!

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jan 11 08:45:22 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:45:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <496A1412.5030009@hornesystemstx.com>

You take it easy and pay attention!

Here is my method of cutting in boxes:
First, make sure the wires are pushed as far back into the box as 
possible. If there are any screws for hanging light fixtures or fans 
that stick out past the face of the box, take them out so the drywall 
sits tight to the face of the box.
Next, plunge the bit into the inside of the box, then pull it back until 
it is only inside the box by less than 1/2".
I like to cut a small (~3/4") hole there and feel to be sure I am in the 
box - sometimes tape measures lie!
Head for one side of the box, you will feel the bit hit the box.
Lift the bit until you feel it slip by over the edge of the box, and 
push it back into the wall.
Now the secret. There is a correct and wrong direction to cut around 
things. The bit will try to move perpendicular to the direction of cut, 
so make use of physics. The bit turns clockwise from the top, which 
means that the bit will try to move to the left of the direction of cut. 
Since you are cutting on the outside of the box, you can use the side of 
the box as a guide as to where to cut, so run the cut around the box 
counter-clockwise. When you get to the stud you will probably need to 
pull the bit up slowly, until it slips in front of the stud. When you 
get to a corner you will feel the bit slide around the corner, so you 
just change the direction of your pressure.

If you are cutting around the inside of an opening you cut clock-wise 
around the opening because the surface you are following is on the 
outside of the cut. (Be careful that the framing material you are 
following doesn't have any gaps at the corners where the bit can go past 
the corner of the cut).

There are several types of drywall bits available, up-cut, down-cut, 
piloted and non-piloted. For drywall, use down cut bits to push the dust 
back into the wall. If you are using any guide surface that is not 
steel, use piloted bits, the non-piloted bits will eat right through 
plastic and be difficult to push on wood. I also use 1/8" bits for 
cutting in boxes and 1/" bits for cutting doors and windows. 1/8" bits 
come in packs of 5 or 10 and you will break several while doing a house.

When working overhead, wear safety goggles and try not to breathe much dust.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Mark Andy, On 1/11/2009 9:00 AM:
> Howdy,
>
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Brian Kemp wrote:
>> If I were doing lots of drywall, I'd use it there as well for 
>> electrical boxes.  Just identify a point in the box, partially secure 
>> the drywall, plunge into the box, find the edge, route the box, then 
>> fully secure the sheet.  It will make lots of dust, so I wouldn't use 
>> it in an occupied area.
>
> How do you do this without cutting into the wires, etc?
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1886 - Release Date: 1/10/2009 6:01 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 11 09:22:50 2009
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 08:22:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <496A1CDA.7030602@earthlink.net>

Pat gave a great answer.  The wires need to be tucked in and the depth 
of the bit is just a bit more than the thickness of the drywall.  The 
pros do a box in about 10 seconds.

Brian

Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Brian Kemp wrote:
>> If I were doing lots of drywall, I'd use it there as well for 
>> electrical boxes.  Just identify a point in the box, partially secure 
>> the drywall, plunge into the box, find the edge, route the box, then 
>> fully secure the sheet.  It will make lots of dust, so I wouldn't use 
>> it in an occupied area.
>
> How do you do this without cutting into the wires, etc?
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jan 11 10:26:47 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:26:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stoves
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>

With all this talk about refrigerators and stoves, I've got a couple 
of questions.

1. Any one using an induction stove top?  My wife saw a show yesterday about
then, and was wondering if they were worth it?

2. With the newer flat top stoves, how do you change a burner?  Or do you have
to replace the entire flat top (all burners) if one fails.  Last time 
we were looking
at kitchen appliances I asked the sales man, and he said you call 
repair.  Not the
answer I was looking for. :)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From shochschild at att.net  Sun Jan 11 10:34:02 2009
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:34:02 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stoves
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
Message-ID: <496A2D8A.7090001@att.net>

When I was considering them, I asked about the interface between the 
surface and the pot or pan.  They really need to be flat and tight, 
which would have meant replacing a lot of our  cookware.  Our guy, a 
salesman I trusted, talked me out of it... YMMV

John T. Blair wrote:
> With all this talk about refrigerators and stoves, I've got a couple 
> of questions.
>
> 1. Any one using an induction stove top?  My wife saw a show yesterday 
> about
> then, and was wondering if they were worth it?
>
> 2. With the newer flat top stoves, how do you change a burner?  Or do 
> you have
> to replace the entire flat top (all burners) if one fails.  Last time 
> we were looking
> at kitchen appliances I asked the sales man, and he said you call 
> repair.  Not the
> answer I was looking for. :)
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jan 11 10:57:34 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:57:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stoves
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
Message-ID: <496A330E.2030109@xxiii.com>

John T. Blair wrote:
> 1. Any one using an induction stove top?  My wife saw a show yesterday 
> about then, and was wondering if they were worth it?

Dunno anything about them.

> 2. With the newer flat top stoves, how do you change a burner?  Or do 
> you have to replace the entire flat top (all burners) if one fails.

On the one I was asking questions about the other day, you CAN replace 
burners separately.  It's a 1999 vintage Kenmore made by Maytag.  The 
top is stamped steel;  the glass was installed from the top;  the 
burners bolt into the steel from underneath.  You can punch up model 
629.46799 on your favorite parts site if you're curious.

I'll attach a parts diagram, which hopefully will find its way to John, 
and be filtered out by the list server.

   -Wayne

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of M0407006-00001.png]

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 11 11:01:45 2009
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:01:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com>
	<4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net><Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<496A1CDA.7030602@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DBDAA5BEBA6D4B6A97FD82627A2F6712@watsongxpejt9r>

Dear All,

    And to see the Rotozip in action go to their website: 
http://www.rotozip.com/Learn/ProductVideos

    The third video shows cutting drywall.

    When I used mine to cut the drywall for my garage (HA - I got legitimate 
shop talk into this message!) I grundged up the plastic boxes I used.  By 
the time I finished the last sheet I finally got OK at using the tool. 
Basically I had to be very careful in finding the edge of the box from the 
inside and lifting the bit over that edge.  Even with the guide point tip 
drywall bit (I think that's what I had) I melted slots throught the plastic. 
However, they're behind the outlet or switchplate covers so who can see 
them?

    As for dust, well I was in the garage and I know that drywall work makes 
dust so I don't even remember caring about it.

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (patiently waiting for attention)
1965 Ford Falcon 4 door, 6 cyl, 3 on the tree (patiently waiting for the 
clutch replacement to be completed)
various other transportation pods

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Kemp" <bk13 at earthlink.net>
To: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws


> Pat gave a great answer.  The wires need to be tucked in and the depth of 
> the bit is just a bit more than the thickness of the drywall.  The pros do 
> a box in about 10 seconds.
>
> Brian
>
<snip>

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Sun Jan 11 11:04:18 2009
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:04:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stoves
In-Reply-To: <496A2D8A.7090001@att.net>
Message-ID: <C58F74A2.72FB%kennedybc@comcast.net>

If it's those smooth surface one's you're talking about, keeping them clean
is a pain. A little bit of dirt shows up really well and I think you need a
special cleaner. 
Brian
-- 


> From: "shochschild at att.net" <shochschild at att.net>
> Reply-To: <shochschild at att.net>
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:34:02 -0600
> To: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Stoves
> 
> When I was considering them, I asked about the interface between the
> surface and the pot or pan.  They really need to be flat and tight,
> which would have meant replacing a lot of our  cookware.  Our guy, a
> salesman I trusted, talked me out of it... YMMV
> 
> John T. Blair wrote:
>> With all this talk about refrigerators and stoves, I've got a couple
>> of questions.
>> 
>> 1. Any one using an induction stove top?  My wife saw a show yesterday
>> about
>> then, and was wondering if they were worth it?
>> 
>> 2. With the newer flat top stoves, how do you change a burner?  Or do
>> you have
>> to replace the entire flat top (all burners) if one fails.  Last time
>> we were looking
>> at kitchen appliances I asked the sales man, and he said you call
>> repair.  Not the
>> answer I was looking for. :)
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
>> Va. Beach, Va
>> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>> 
>>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>>                        65 Rambler Classic
>> 
>> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
>> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>> 
>> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
>> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 11 11:54:48 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:54:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stoves
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901111054y6696f94aob94ed34aabc11627@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 12:26 PM, John T. Blair <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:
> With all this talk about refrigerators and stoves, I've got a couple of
> questions.
>
> 1. Any one using an induction stove top?  My wife saw a show yesterday about
> then, and was wondering if they were worth it?
>

Induction burners are great.  They're a heck of a lot more efficient
than regular electric stoves, and miles ahead of an open flame.
(Somewhere between 80% and 95% of the energy from an induction burner
makes it into the pot, compared with 50-65% for electric, and 40% for
gas.  The rest heats your kitchen.)  they're also easier to clean: the
stove top doesn't get hot, except from the heat transmitted back from
the pan, so less burned on crud.   They also react to changes in the
controls faster than even gas stoves do.

You do need proper cookware for them, which may or may not require new
pans.  they're still pretty expensive, but they've come down in price,
and increased in availability.  They've been common in parts of Europe
for quite some time.  Until recently, there haven't been many ranges
available in the US, just cooktops, but Sears has one (or maybe two)
now.

> 2. With the newer flat top stoves, how do you change a burner?  Or do you
> have
> to replace the entire flat top (all burners) if one fails.  Last time we
> were looking
> at kitchen appliances I asked the sales man, and he said you call repair.
>  Not the
> answer I was looking for. :)
>

Some have them embedded in the glass, others have them underneath, and
can be replaced normally, after you remove the glass (which is big
pain; it's heavy!, and you'll likely need a new gasket around it).


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Jan 11 12:21:49 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:21:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stoves
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2><6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
Message-ID: <123C191C05634BF9B4FB70075840382C@KARL>

Ours isn't hard to repair.

With our 2005 KitchenAid, the whole thing is a unit that drops into the 
counter, and it's just over 3" thick as I recall.  Not horribly heavy, and 
we have a 36", 5-burner unit.  The top glass assembly is a piece of glass 
adhered onto a stamped sheetmetal angle frame piece - the sheet steel angle 
is what actually hangs on the counter, with the glued-on glass being all you 
see on top.

To change a burner, you remove the (2 as I recall) screws holding the unit 
down into the countertop, and lift the unit out.  Remove a dozen or so 
screws around the periphery and lift the top assembly off.  Then all the 
burners and controls are right there in the open.

I had to change a glass, and then the whole unit it after installing it - 
the first unit was banged in shipment and was warped so it wouldn't sit 
flat.  They sent a new glass but that didn't do the trick, so then they sent 
another whole unit.  ISTR it took me maybe 10 minutes to pull the unit and 
remove the glass.  A little longer to reinstall because the only gasket is 
some strip foam to seal the outer edge of the galss to the countertop to 
keep spils from running down into the cabinet.  You have to install those 
long foam strips onto the glaass and that took me longer than the rest of 
the installation.

Karl

PS - To clean, you just scrape off burned-on gook with a razor blade and 
then polish it with either some cooktop cleaner (they gave us a sample 
bottle with the original unit and another with the replacement - we haven't 
bought any more yet) or else spray-on granite cleaner that my buddy the 
granite guy gave me.  Takes some rubbing, but it's waaaay easier and faster 
than cleaning a spill out of an electric or gas stove.  No nooks and 
crannies - just a flat piece of glass.



> 2. With the newer flat top stoves, how do you change a burner?  Or do you 
> have
> to replace the entire flat top (all burners) if one fails.  Last time we 
> were looking
> at kitchen appliances I asked the sales man, and he said you call repair. 
> Not the
> answer I was looking for. :)
>
> John

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sun Jan 11 12:28:21 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:28:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <DBDAA5BEBA6D4B6A97FD82627A2F6712@watsongxpejt9r>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<496A1CDA.7030602@earthlink.net>
	<DBDAA5BEBA6D4B6A97FD82627A2F6712@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0901111128n764cc000q1f3068a92fbfda67@mail.gmail.com>

For dust control, I usually hold the rotary cutter with one hand and
the shop vac nozzle with the other.  Nearly all the dust gets sucked
up.

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
>   And to see the Rotozip in action go to their website:
> http://www.rotozip.com/Learn/ProductVideos
>
>   The third video shows cutting drywall.
>
>   When I used mine to cut the drywall for my garage (HA - I got legitimate
> shop talk into this message!) I grundged up the plastic boxes I used.  By
> the time I finished the last sheet I finally got OK at using the tool.
> Basically I had to be very careful in finding the edge of the box from the
> inside and lifting the bit over that edge.  Even with the guide point tip
> drywall bit (I think that's what I had) I melted slots throught the plastic.
> However, they're behind the outlet or switchplate covers so who can see
> them?
>
>   As for dust, well I was in the garage and I know that drywall work makes
> dust so I don't even remember caring about it.
>
> Mark Watson
> 1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (patiently waiting for attention)
> 1965 Ford Falcon 4 door, 6 cyl, 3 on the tree (patiently waiting for the
> clutch replacement to be completed)
> various other transportation pods
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kemp" <bk13 at earthlink.net>
> To: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
>
>
>> Pat gave a great answer.  The wires need to be tucked in and the depth of
>> the bit is just a bit more than the thickness of the drywall.  The pros do a
>> box in about 10 seconds.
>>
>> Brian
>>
> <snip>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Jan 11 13:09:09 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:09:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W212AB2A5A222FB716D9C77E1DB0@phx.gbl>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BAY123-W212AB2A5A222FB716D9C77E1DB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111508090.18603@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Rich White wrote:
> I'm sure he was talking about adding new boxes.
> This would imply that there would not be wires behind the wall you were
> cutting.

?  I've never seen drywall put up before the electrical was run.

Maybe if you were using conduit for everything?

Mark

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Jan 11 13:13:47 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:13:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <496A1CDA.7030602@earthlink.net>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<496A1CDA.7030602@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111512140.18603@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Brian Kemp wrote:
> Pat gave a great answer.  The wires need to be tucked in and the depth of the 
> bit is just a bit more than the thickness of the drywall.  The pros do a box 
> in about 10 seconds.

I've always done it by measuring / marking the box and cutting it with a 
drywall saw...

But now I've got one of those roto-zip deals (HF to the rescue.  :-) and 
maybe I'll try this method next time.

Any tips for how to do it when the outlets & such are already in the box?

Mark

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jan 11 13:47:14 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:47:14 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111512140.18603@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<496A1CDA.7030602@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111512140.18603@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <496A5AD2.2080607@hornesystemstx.com>

Mark,

That makes things a lot harder if you want to route the boxes in place. 
Personally, I'd pull the outlets and switches, it would take less effort 
and be faster than manhandling the drywall.

However, there is another fixture I've seen, but not used that might 
help you out. It is a metal sheet metal piece that slips into the box to 
be routed. It has points on the sheet metal that will stick into the 
back of the drywall when you put it into place and tap it. When you pull 
the drywall off, the fixture should still be attached to the back of the 
drywall, or at least be able to see where it was. You then route around 
the outside of the sheet metal and the hole is done. You may be able to 
find a fixture of this type that will clear the outlets and switches. 
You may be able to make something like this yourself. I've also seen a 
fixture that had a stamp pat sort of frame that would leave an ink mark 
on the back of the drywall in the location that needed cutting. Outlets 
would be easier than switches because the drywall would be closer to the 
boxes on outlets, but if you rough cut a hole for the toggle to stick 
through, that would help.

 The biggest problem with using it is that when the drywall is pressed 
against it the drywall must be exactly where it needs to be when the 
drywall is installed or the hole will be out of place.

Thusly spake Mark Andy, On 1/11/2009 2:13 PM:
> Howdy,
>
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Brian Kemp wrote:
>> Pat gave a great answer.  The wires need to be tucked in and the 
>> depth of the bit is just a bit more than the thickness of the 
>> drywall.  The pros do a box in about 10 seconds.
>
> I've always done it by measuring / marking the box and cutting it with 
> a drywall saw...
>
> But now I've got one of those roto-zip deals (HF to the rescue.  :-) 
> and maybe I'll try this method next time.
>
> Any tips for how to do it when the outlets & such are already in the box?
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1886 - Release Date: 1/10/2009 6:01 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 11 14:26:18 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:26:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W212AB2A5A222FB716D9C77E1DB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090111212618.KLSB4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> By code the wire should be 1.5 inches below the surface. 

Wow.  I don't worry over much about code (nor did the builders of my house).
But how the heck do you suspend Romex exactly in the middle of the wall ?
An ordinary 2x4 is only 3.5", so 1.5" from both sides leaves only a 0.5"
space where the wire is allowed to be.

Randall

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sun Jan 11 14:51:04 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:51:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] marble threshold question
In-Reply-To: <496A1412.5030009@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <1039770040.1171481231710664534.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

this is (or will be, anyway) the shop bathroom: 

under which door parts does a marble threshold go? under the trim, I think, but under the jamb as well? 

and I might have my terminology wrong. I'm about to put down a new floor, and basically, does the threshold go under everything, or does it butt between the jamb (or frame, or whatever I should be calling it)? 

thanks. 

scott 

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jan 11 15:14:54 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:14:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stoves
In-Reply-To: <123C191C05634BF9B4FB70075840382C@KARL>
References: <8184BB1AFE3246F9A361D0DD5DB0167F@shack2>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20090111122403.01c9e888@cox.net>
	<123C191C05634BF9B4FB70075840382C@KARL>
Message-ID: <0KDB003MEV6D6P20@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I think there is a little confusion here.  There are smooth type 
cooktops that still use fairly traditional heating elements.  And 
then there are inductive cooktops.  They both look kind of the same, 
but they work differently.  The inductive type does not get hot, it 
causes the pot to get hot.  This type is expensive, efficient, and 
requires the right type of pots.  The other kind are basically the 
same as any electric element type stove, except the elements are 
protected and the top should theoretically be easier to clean than 
one with exposed elements.  Heating elements tend to fail after a 
while due to the repeated heat cycling.  While anything can fail, 
inductive components should be less prone to failure.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Jan 11 15:24:45 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:24:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
Message-ID: <200901112224.n0BMOjWL024322@moose.dimebank.com>

> But how the heck do you suspend Romex exactly in the middle of the wall ?
> An ordinary 2x4 is only 3.5", so 1.5" from both sides leaves only a 0.5"
> space where the wire is allowed to be.

With a ruler and a spade bit? This doesn't seem hard.

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sun Jan 11 15:48:10 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:48:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <20090111212618.KLSB4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <BAY123-W212AB2A5A222FB716D9C77E1DB0@phx.gbl>
	<20090111212618.KLSB4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0901111448p2109c88w6f5dd565864676a6@mail.gmail.com>

You are supposed to used wire staples and staple it to a stud.  This
is more difficult if there is already drywall in place.

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> By code the wire should be 1.5 inches below the surface.
>
> Wow.  I don't worry over much about code (nor did the builders of my house).
> But how the heck do you suspend Romex exactly in the middle of the wall ?
> An ordinary 2x4 is only 3.5", so 1.5" from both sides leaves only a 0.5"
> space where the wire is allowed to be.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 11 20:37:47 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:37:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <200901112224.n0BMOjWL024322@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <20090112033746.JYML21495.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> With a ruler and a spade bit? This doesn't seem hard.

Well, it's probably 6 or 7 feet through the wall from the top to where the
outlet is.  Drilling a hole that long with zero tolerance isn't what I'd
call easy ... not to mention that it's kind of pointless to drill a hole
through air, which is what's inside most of my walls.  Drilling through
insulation is even less entertaining.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 11 20:47:11 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:47:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <20090112033746.JYML21495.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <200901112224.n0BMOjWL024322@moose.dimebank.com>
	<20090112033746.JYML21495.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901111947l514243cbn1634e63ef5f86f61@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> With a ruler and a spade bit? This doesn't seem hard.
>
> Well, it's probably 6 or 7 feet through the wall from the top to where the
> outlet is.  Drilling a hole that long with zero tolerance isn't what I'd
> call easy ... not to mention that it's kind of pointless to drill a hole
> through air, which is what's inside most of my walls.  Drilling through
> insulation is even less entertaining.

Most of the outlets on the interior walls here are fed from the side,
with the wire running through
holes in the studs.  Takes less wire.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 11 20:51:37 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:51:37 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40901111947l514243cbn1634e63ef5f86f61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090112035136.WVTU73.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Most of the outlets on the interior walls here are fed from 
> the side, with the wire running through holes in the studs.  

Makes it kind of hard to walk through the doors, doesn't it ?  I don't think
I have a single interior wall that is long enough for more than two outlets.

Randall

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jan 11 21:10:16 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:10:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] marble threshold question
In-Reply-To: <1039770040.1171481231710664534.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1039770040.1171481231710664534.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <496AC2A8.8010909@hornesystemstx.com>

Depends on who gets there first!

Actually, since you are working with stone it is easiest to put the 
threshold down first, set the door on top of that and cut the door 
casing to sit on top of the threshold, covering up the square cut of the 
threshold around the framing. Stone can be coped to match the trim, but 
it is a lot of slow expensive work. In most homes I have worked on the 
doors and casing is installed before the vinyl floor and underlayment is 
installed. If the door or casing is set too low we just cut if off at a 
height that allows the underlayment and tile to be slipped under. If the 
floor is already in place we just run the casing down to the floor.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake scott.hall at comcast.net, On 1/11/2009 3:51 PM:
> this is (or will be, anyway) the shop bathroom: 
>
> under which door parts does a marble threshold go? under the trim, I think, but under the jamb as well? 
>
> and I might have my terminology wrong. I'm about to put down a new floor, and basically, does the threshold go under everything, or does it butt between the jamb (or frame, or whatever I should be calling it)? 
>
> thanks. 
>
> scott 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1886 - Release Date: 1/10/2009 6:01 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 11 21:24:14 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:24:14 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111508090.18603@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <4967E986.8050105@xxiii.com> <4968D006.2070804@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111000050.11183@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BAY123-W212AB2A5A222FB716D9C77E1DB0@phx.gbl> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0901111508090.18603@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W52BE627EBBE17E4003FB0CE1D80@phx.gbl>

I was thinking of adding outlets not new constuction.
That is all I've done for years.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves!> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009
15:09:09 -0500> From: mark at sccaprepared.com> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws> > Howdy,> > On Sun, 11 Jan
2009, Rich White wrote:> > I'm sure he was talking about adding new boxes.> >
This would imply that there would not be wires behind the wall you were> >
cutting.> > ? I've never seen drywall put up before the electrical was run.> >
Maybe if you were using conduit for everything?> > Mark>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as
rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk> >
http://www.team.net/archive

From bill at gingerich.us  Sun Jan 11 23:08:23 2009
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:08:23 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair - conclusion
In-Reply-To: <4969116B.5000804@milleredp.com>
References: <20090110171133.OIEO4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><496910DB.4000608@milleredp.com>
	<4969116B.5000804@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <F5DF913EEA9D4A06AAFC808B32901AD9@shack2>

Greetings, Everyone!

I thought I'd pass on what I ended up doing with the leaking gas line.
Since gas was dripping on the ground finding the leak was pretty simple,
once I got the car up in the air.  Wiping 16 years of road grime off the
lines revealed a pinhole leak in the largest of the 3 lines running from the
tank area to the engine compartment.  As someone suggested, the lines are
plastic.  I was able to cut a 6" section of that line out, and replace it
with a chunk of 5/16 rubber fuel injection hose from my FLAPS.  I was able
to shove the ends of the plastic lines about 2 inches into the rubber line,
and secured each with 3 FI hose clamps.  I tucked the line back into the
various hangers under the car, and verified that nothing was rubbing on
anything.  Running the car at idle for several minutes showed no leaks.  A
50 mile trip later in the day also showed no evidence of leaks.  I'll keep
an eye in it periodically to see if anything changes, but so far, so good.

Thanks again to all for your suggestions.  

BillG
OKC 

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Jan 12 10:38:16 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:38:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <20090111212618.KLSB4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20090111212618.KLSB4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <496B8008.4060701@hornesystemstx.com>

Actually that spec is from the SURFACE of the WALL, which is at least 
1/2" out from the face of the studs., which actually gives you 1.5" to 
work with. It isn't strictly enforced around here, as long as the wires 
are near the center of the stud. The purpose of this spec is to keep 
wires from getting drywall nails or screws into them, but it still 
happens. Any time wire goes through a stud closer than 1" from the face 
it is supposed to get a nail stop plate nailed to the stud to protect 
the wires also. This applies to plumbing lines too.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall, On 1/11/2009 3:26 PM:
>> By code the wire should be 1.5 inches below the surface. 
>>     
>
> Wow.  I don't worry over much about code (nor did the builders of my house).
> But how the heck do you suspend Romex exactly in the middle of the wall ?
> An ordinary 2x4 is only 3.5", so 1.5" from both sides leaves only a 0.5"
> space where the wire is allowed to be.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1886 - Release Date: 1/10/2009 6:01 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan 12 10:50:48 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:50:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <496B8008.4060701@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <20090111212618.KLSB4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<496B8008.4060701@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <078301c974de$4e163610$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Actually that spec is from the SURFACE of the WALL

Ah, I see.  You mean the OUTSIDE surface, rather than the inside surface.
That makes far more sense.

Thanks for the explanation

> Any time wire goes through a stud closer than 1" from the face it is
> supposed to get a nail stop plate

Which might be an unpleasant thing to run a Roto-zip bit into.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Mon Jan 12 13:38:45 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:38:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] RotoZip router / saws
Message-ID: <200901122038.n0CKcj7i016997@moose.dimebank.com>

> > Any time wire goes through a stud closer than 1" from the face it is
> > supposed to get a nail stop plate
> 
> Which might be an unpleasant thing to run a Roto-zip bit into.

Or a drywall screw, which is really what that's about.

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Jan 12 17:57:28 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:57:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Auto gas line repair
In-Reply-To: <20090110171133.OIEO4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20090110031329.03a02ff0@yahoo.com>
	<20090110171133.OIEO4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <02738D11E52746CEA64F996E097977D4@HPPavilion>

I didn't have a flare tool, but I did have a Mig welder, so I added a bit of
a weld circumferentially near the end of the pipe.  It's a smooth hump and
the clamp us upstream of the weld.  I believe it's as good or better than a
flare.

Jack

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Jan 12 20:29:48 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901122228020.20316@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I need a 3d drawing package to model things in.  Its for me, so psycho 
expensive stuff is out.  I don't mind spending some time learning to use 
it, but I also don't want it to have to be something I do everyday or I 
can't get anything done.

I want to use it for stuff like:

* Designing bookshelves that I want to be able to "see".

* Fabricating parts.

* other crap I don't know about.

For the bookshelf thing (which is what I'm doing right now), it'd be super 
handy if I could do stuff like define a board that was 11.25"x.75" 
(variable length) and then place that where I wanted it, along with other 
boards, and then the thing would compute inside/outside lengths, let me 
"snap" a board to another board, etc.

I also want the ability to just type in "11.25"x.75" or that I want it to 
be 36" long or whatever.  I'd like to have the option to just freehand it 
with the mouse too, but the critical thing for me is being able to put in 
dimensioned stuff.

When I get the thing all designed, I'd want to be able to render it or 
whatever and then view it from any angle, see problematic intersections, 
etc.

If I could waive my magic wand, it would also generate a cut list for me 
for the materials, be it lumber or metal or whatever.

Anything out there like that?  Oh.  Windows.

Thanks!

Mark

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 12 20:59:14 2009
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:59:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small So. Cal houses - was Re: RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <20090112035136.WVTU73.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20090112035136.WVTU73.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <496C1192.9080107@earthlink.net>

Randall - (some humor intended) Remember that there a number of people 
on this list with shops bigger than the typical houses in Southern 
California where the real estate ads list lot size in SqFt if mentioned 
at all.  Now that I'm pretty much done with the painting outside, I can 
give the lawn some attention.  One of the sprinkler zones doesn't come 
on so the lawn is going brown and the rest needs a mowing.

Brian in the Los Angeles Area
1600 SqFt 4 bedroom 2 bath house
8250 SqFt lot - one of the largest in my neighborhood
Shop ceiling - normally unlimited, no cleanup necessary since the 
sawdust fertilizes the grass.
Tools share the 18x20 garage with the Triumph TR6 and other fun things

Randall wrote:
>> Most of the outlets on the interior walls here are fed from 
>> the side, with the wire running through holes in the studs.  
>>     
>
> Makes it kind of hard to walk through the doors, doesn't it ?  I don't think
> I have a single interior wall that is long enough for more than two outlets.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From trimmer at charter.net  Mon Jan 12 21:43:46 2009
From: trimmer at charter.net (Ron & Mary Trimmer)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:43:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901122228020.20316@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901122228020.20316@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <000001c97539$858ebe40$90ac3ac0$@net>

I took a CAD course at the local community college.  We studied AutoDesk
Inventor.  As a student I was able to download an educational version good
for 14 months.  I paid tuition for the course but the educational version
cost me nothing.  Our final project or assignment was to create a CAD design
for a deck.  We created all the boards.  We were provide with a  part file
for a stud hanger.

One way you could do what you want is to create a part that was a rectangle
and then set the sides at 11.25" and .75" and save it and then resave it and
extrude it to 36".  You could resave it again and extrude it to a length of
say 48".



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Andy
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 9:30 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed

Howdy,

I need a 3d drawing package to model things in.  Its for me, so psycho 
expensive stuff is out.  I don't mind spending some time learning to use 
it, but I also don't want it to have to be something I do everyday or I 
can't get anything done.

I want to use it for stuff like:

* Designing bookshelves that I want to be able to "see".

* Fabricating parts.

* other crap I don't know about.

For the bookshelf thing (which is what I'm doing right now), it'd be super 
handy if I could do stuff like define a board that was 11.25"x.75" 
(variable length) and then place that where I wanted it, along with other 
boards, and then the thing would compute inside/outside lengths, let me 
"snap" a board to another board, etc.

I also want the ability to just type in "11.25"x.75" or that I want it to 
be 36" long or whatever.  I'd like to have the option to just freehand it 
with the mouse too, but the critical thing for me is being able to put in 
dimensioned stuff.

When I get the thing all designed, I'd want to be able to render it or 
whatever and then view it from any angle, see problematic intersections, 
etc.

If I could waive my magic wand, it would also generate a cut list for me 
for the materials, be it lumber or metal or whatever.

Anything out there like that?  Oh.  Windows.

Thanks!

Mark
You are subscribed as trimmer at charter.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Mon Jan 12 21:45:13 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:45:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
Message-ID: <200901130445.n0D4jD5t030075@moose.dimebank.com>

I've been using Google SketchUp. It's not really designed to be a cad
package, but more for sketching ... so don't expect to produce
dimensioned drawings. That said - you can type in exact dimensions
where you want them. 

It certainly won't generate a cut list :-)

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Mon Jan 12 21:52:28 2009
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:52:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901122228020.20316@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <EB1EE6C26CC448479D920A517DDECC69@Dell9200>

Mark,

I built out a large room with a bath and utility room and used a program 
called 3D Home Architect by Broderbund.  It took a while to learn but worked 
nice and made a materials list for each part that I was working on.  I also 
used it for cabinets and was able to take the drawing to the cabinetmaker to 
work from.  Not expensive but don't know where to send you to find it, maybe 
eBay.  Nice 3D visuals as well as detail drawings.

Mark
Nashville




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 9:29 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed



Howdy,

I need a 3d drawing package to model things in.  Its for me, so psycho
expensive stuff is out.  I don't mind spending some time learning to use
it, but I also don't want it to have to be something I do everyday or I
can't get anything done.

I want to use it for stuff like:

* Designing bookshelves that I want to be able to "see".

* Fabricating parts.

* other crap I don't know about.

For the bookshelf thing (which is what I'm doing right now), it'd be super
handy if I could do stuff like define a board that was 11.25"x.75"
(variable length) and then place that where I wanted it, along with other
boards, and then the thing would compute inside/outside lengths, let me
"snap" a board to another board, etc.

I also want the ability to just type in "11.25"x.75" or that I want it to
be 36" long or whatever.  I'd like to have the option to just freehand it
with the mouse too, but the critical thing for me is being able to put in
dimensioned stuff.

When I get the thing all designed, I'd want to be able to render it or
whatever and then view it from any angle, see problematic intersections,
etc.

If I could waive my magic wand, it would also generate a cut list for me
for the materials, be it lumber or metal or whatever.

Anything out there like that?  Oh.  Windows.

Thanks!

Mark
_______________________________________________

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jan 12 21:59:51 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:59:51 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
In-Reply-To: <EB1EE6C26CC448479D920A517DDECC69@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <OF6D797A96.D28BBF6D-ON4325753D.001B51F3-4325753D.001C5535@mail.megageek.com>

I still use 3D Home Architect.  I have a version from DOS, and it still 
works great! 

It's so simple to use, and easy to understand.  It is a little limited in 
some of the features, but I'm sure a newer version (maybe one not created 
in the 80's) would have them.  But it works fine for everything I do.

Even better, it was free.  It fits on a 3.5" floppy.

In fact, I most likely have the files here in Iraq with me, if you want I 
could upload it to my server and you could get it there. (and know that 
it's free from viruses, spyware, and adware.)

If there is any interest, let me know and I'll get it up there.

Don't worry about licensing, the copy I got was for free (and I'm 99% 
positive the original disk say, "distribute freely.")

OK, I just opened up the app (no installation necessary!) and I can't tell 
if it is a freeware or licence copy.  But I do remember getting it for 
free.  Oh yeah, the software is from 1995.  It's a 8.5 meg d/l.

It does do a good material list. 

This would NOT be good for doing a single book shelf, but for any 
structure plans it works good enough to get a good feel for the project.

If nothing else, it would give you a free for the software and if you 
wanted to plop down the cash for the latest version.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"Mark" <mark at nashvilletn.org> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
01/13/2009 07:42 AM

To
"Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>, <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed






Mark,

I built out a large room with a bath and utility room and used a program 
called 3D Home Architect by Broderbund.  It took a while to learn but 
worked 
nice and made a materials list for each part that I was working on.  I 
also 
used it for cabinets and was able to take the drawing to the cabinetmaker 
to 
work from.  Not expensive but don't know where to send you to find it, 
maybe 
eBay.  Nice 3D visuals as well as detail drawings.

Mark
Nashville

From trevor at boicey.com  Tue Jan 13 10:31:54 2009
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:31:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Small So. Cal houses - was Re: RotoZip router / saws
In-Reply-To: <496C1192.9080107@earthlink.net>
References: <20090112035136.WVTU73.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<496C1192.9080107@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <496CD00A.4020106@boicey.com>

Brian Kemp wrote:
> Randall - (some humor intended) Remember that there a number of people 
> on this list with shops bigger than the typical houses in Southern 
> California where the real estate ads list lot size in SqFt if mentioned 
> at all.

   Heheh I always did get the feeling this list was pretty rural in 
demographics.

   My last house was a freak house to have a big four car garage in the 
city (Ottawa) but my new property only has a single.

   I will be building a garage for the new house but it has to be built 
underground. No room for anything but the single now!

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 15:10:35 2009
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:10:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1231873202.19260.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <522529.14329.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I've been picking through the remains of a friend's parts car before it goes off to the crusher.  I'm about to pull the brake system (master cylinder, calipers, and rotors) for spares, as they are fairly new (3 months old?) and directly interchange with mine.  However, I'm not likely to actually need them for who knows how long....
What is the best way to prep these for indefinite storage.  I suspect I should be flushing out the residual brake fluid with something, as the old stuff will attract moisture?  What will drive out the brake fluid without causing issues by itself?  I don't think the internals are coated with anything, so the raw steel/aluminum in the bores will likely corrode quickly without some protection.  Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jan 13 15:16:53 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:16:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
Message-ID: <200901132216.n0DMGrgT025096@moose.dimebank.com>

I always use alcohol as a final rinse when cleaning. You can buy "brake
lubricant", a clear liquid that is compatible with brake fluid; I'd 
make a final wipe of the bores with that and then bag it in a ziploc.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan 13 16:05:16 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:05:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <522529.14329.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.11.1231873202.19260.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<522529.14329.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0aca01c975d3$663776f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

You're quite right, conventional brake fluid will destroy the components in
relatively short order.  Somewhere, I've got a pair of brand new rear brake
cylinders that a previous owner filled with conventional fluid and plugged
the opening ... they are totally ruined.

But I've had good luck using DOT 5 brake fluid as a long term preservative
for brake components.

Randall

From whesr at iglou.com  Tue Jan 13 16:16:47 2009
From: whesr at iglou.com (Bill Engle Sr)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:16:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <522529.14329.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.11.1231873202.19260.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<522529.14329.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001001c975d5$020cb1c0$0400a8c0@MDBC.local>

Disassemble clean with brake cleaner and coat with brake lube (not the stuff
for brake pads and shoes you need the assembly lube).

Bill







-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Obaa
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:11 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?

I've been picking through the remains of a friend's parts car before it goes
off to the crusher.  I'm about to pull the brake system (master cylinder,
calipers, and rotors) for spares, as they are fairly new (3 months old?) and
directly interchange with mine.  However, I'm not likely to actually need
them for who knows how long....
What is the best way to prep these for indefinite storage.  I suspect I
should be flushing out the residual brake fluid with something, as the old
stuff will attract moisture?  What will drive out the brake fluid without
causing issues by itself?  I don't think the internals are coated with
anything, so the raw steel/aluminum in the bores will likely corrode quickly
without some protection.  Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 17:46:21 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:46:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901122228020.20316@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <276330.37015.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I've been toying with a free one from 

http://www.emachineshop.com/

It is rather basic and I don't recall having to do so many
steps with the autocad software I used to use in college, 
but it does do a rather nice 3-d drawing of all my 
screwups while I learn how to use it. ;p

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:

> From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 10:29 PM
> Howdy,
> 
> I need a 3d drawing package to model things in.  Its for
> me, so psycho expensive stuff is out.  I don't mind
> spending some time learning to use it, but I also don't
> want it to have to be something I do everyday or I can't
> get anything done.
> 
> I want to use it for stuff like:
> 
> * Designing bookshelves that I want to be able to
> "see".
> 
> * Fabricating parts.
> 
> * other crap I don't know about.
(snip)

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Jan 13 18:49:43 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:49:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
In-Reply-To: <276330.37015.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <276330.37015.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <496D44B7.8040304@hornesystemstx.com>

I haven't tried them in several years, but I couldn't find a combination 
of machines that they had that would produce the parts I needed. It was 
really strange, you could drill and route, but not punch in a part (1/8" 
aluminum). I tried for about a day to get a combination of machines that 
would produce the part, but gave up. Haven't looked at it since.

Having said that, I can't remember what the shop drawings it produced 
looked like, but if it produces dimensioned drawings, and that is all 
you need, the price is right!

Peace.
Pat

Thusly spake Battmain, On 1/13/2009 6:46 PM:
> I've been toying with a free one from 
>
> http://www.emachineshop.com/
>
> It is rather basic and I don't recall having to do so many
> steps with the autocad software I used to use in college, 
> but it does do a rather nice 3-d drawing of all my 
> screwups while I learn how to use it. ;p
>
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com
>
>
> --- On Mon, 1/12/09, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>
>> Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 10:29 PM
>> Howdy,
>>
>> I need a 3d drawing package to model things in.  Its for
>> me, so psycho expensive stuff is out.  I don't mind
>> spending some time learning to use it, but I also don't
>> want it to have to be something I do everyday or I can't
>> get anything done.
>>
>> I want to use it for stuff like:
>>
>> * Designing bookshelves that I want to be able to
>> "see".
>>
>> * Fabricating parts.
>>
>> * other crap I don't know about.
>>     
> (snip)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1891 - Release Date: 1/13/2009 8:17 AM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jan 14 07:39:44 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:39:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <0aca01c975d3$663776f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <797157.27325.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If brake fluid is so awful, why do they use it in brakes?

Doug

--- On Tue, 1/13/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 6:05 PM

You're quite right, conventional brake fluid will destroy the components in
relatively short order.  Somewhere, I've got a pair of brand new rear brake
cylinders that a previous owner filled with conventional fluid and plugged
the opening ... they are totally ruined.

But I've had good luck using DOT 5 brake fluid as a long term preservative
for brake components.

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jan 14 08:43:12 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:43:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <797157.27325.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <797157.27325.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <496E0810.7050505@hornesystemstx.com>

Because you are supposed to replace it every couple/few years, which 
most people don't. If brake fluid is replaced
before it absorbs as much water as it can hold, you will have a lot less 
components that need to be replaced
because of pitting  and rust, at least pitting and rust on the parts of 
the component that are in contact with the brake
fluid. It's also pretty cheap.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Doug Braun, On 1/14/2009 8:39 AM:
> If brake fluid is so awful, why do they use it in brakes?
>
> Doug
>
> --- On Tue, 1/13/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 6:05 PM
>
> You're quite right, conventional brake fluid will destroy the components in
> relatively short order.  Somewhere, I've got a pair of brand new rear brake
> cylinders that a previous owner filled with conventional fluid and plugged
> the opening ... they are totally ruined.
>
> But I've had good luck using DOT 5 brake fluid as a long term preservative
> for brake components.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1892 - Release Date: 1/13/2009 8:04 PM
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 14 09:07:05 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:07:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <797157.27325.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <0aca01c975d3$663776f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<797157.27325.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901140807t58df9820p1550fa273625f2e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> If brake fluid is so awful, why do they use it in brakes?
>

Because storage and use are different things?  The brake system is
supposed to be a closed system, there's no ingress of air.  (old
English cars excluded....).  No air, no oxidation.  Brake fluid is
very good at what it does, which is transmit force, not compress, and
not boil.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 14 11:58:52 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:58:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40901140807t58df9820p1550fa273625f2e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0aca01c975d3$663776f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><797157.27325.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40901140807t58df9820p1550fa273625f2e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0cb101c9767a$25368ef0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> No air, no oxidation.  

I'm not sure that follows.  The most common form of corrosion in LBC brakes
appears to me to be dissimilar metal corrosion between aluminum bodies and
steel pistons.  This only requires water in the fluid; and some old test
reports I've seen indicate that conventional brake fluid can suck water (and
salt!) right through flexible brake lines.

As noted, conventional brake fluid needs to be changed regularly even when
the car is not driven.  The manual for my 95 Buick says to change it every 2
years.  And avoiding this requirement is supposedly the reason that DOT 5
was originally developed; so the US military could store vehicles unattended
for a long time, and have them instantly ready for service when needed.

Randall

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jan 15 08:43:30 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:43:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable wall panels?
Message-ID: <382B3A4C-E987-4794-8633-B7CCCCCAEEAD@groupwbench.org>

My boiler room is in the center of my basement. I need to re-frame and  
insulate it. When the "professionals" installed it, all the  
connections are facing the outside; if I wall it in, getting to these  
connections will be a major pain. I don't want to make it so big that  
I lose basement space.

Are there insulated panels I can use that will _be_ the wall, look  
good enough for a rec room, yet easily detach from the framing if I  
need to access one of the boiler connections?

thanks,
jim

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jan 15 09:34:43 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:34:43 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable wall panels?
Message-ID: <20090115.113443.15968.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Not sure how big a panel you will need but the fiberglass pebble finish often
used in bathrooms come to mind.  Maybe bond some styrofoam panels to them.
How about using hinged panels? Or maybe access panels?
Matt

-- Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
My boiler room is in the center of my basement. I need to re-frame and
insulate it. When the "professionals" installed it, all the
connections are facing the outside; if I wall it in, getting to these
connections will be a major pain. I don't want to make it so big that
I lose basement space.

Are there insulated panels I can use that will _be_ the wall, look
good enough for a rec room, yet easily detach from the framing if I
need to access one of the boiler connections?

thanks,
jim
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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and tips.
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From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 15 09:49:39 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:49:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable wall panels?
In-Reply-To: <382B3A4C-E987-4794-8633-B7CCCCCAEEAD@groupwbench.org>
References: <382B3A4C-E987-4794-8633-B7CCCCCAEEAD@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <0f2d01c97731$4216c0a0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Are there insulated panels I can use that will _be_ the wall, look
> good enough for a rec room, yet easily detach from the framing if I
> need to access one of the boiler connections?

What about just some old fashioned wood paneling ("knotty pine" or whatever)
with Styrofoam glued to the backside?  The paneling should be easy enough to
pull loose if need be.

And if you don't like the look of wood, you could always paint or paper it.

Randall

From drew at DasRogges.com  Thu Jan 15 09:59:31 2009
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:59:31 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable wall panels?
In-Reply-To: <0f2d01c97731$4216c0a0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <382B3A4C-E987-4794-8633-B7CCCCCAEEAD@groupwbench.org>
	<0f2d01c97731$4216c0a0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <496F6B73.8080602@DasRogges.com>

You could also look at using shower board the same way. That way the kids
could have something to draw on. You might have to come up with some
covering the joints at the studs so that it could be easily removed.

Randall wrote:
>> Are there insulated panels I can use that will _be_ the wall, look
>> good enough for a rec room, yet easily detach from the framing if I
>> need to access one of the boiler connections?
> 
> What about just some old fashioned wood paneling ("knotty pine" or whatever)
> with Styrofoam glued to the backside?  The paneling should be easy enough to
> pull loose if need be.
> 
> And if you don't like the look of wood, you could always paint or paper it.
> 
> Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Jan 15 10:32:20 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:32:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable wall panels?
References: <382B3A4C-E987-4794-8633-B7CCCCCAEEAD@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <71C475666B7E4352B919C729259C5D75@KARL>

Faced with a similar thing a few years ago, I opted to make a section of 
wall removable, drywall and all, so I can eventually change my furnace 
without tearing out the wall and rebuilding it.  I was building the wall 
anyway, so I made a section of the framing removable, with structural screws 
into the joists above and wall alongside, and Tapcons into the concrete 
floor.  Just used the straight edge of the drywall against the ajdoining 
wall with a tight joint, no tape.  If you look you can see the crack, but 
it's hardly noticeable.

Karl



> Are there insulated panels I can use that will _be_ the wall, look  good 
> enough for a rec room, yet easily detach from the framing if I  need to 
> access one of the boiler connections?
>
> thanks,
> jim

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 10:34:07 2009
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:34:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] storing brake components?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1231959602.19784.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <221554.66624.qm@web54307.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the suggestions.  I wasn't aware of "brake lubricant"; I'd only heard of using brake fluid to assemble things.  These brake components are fairly new, and are sufficiently complicated (the rear calipers have an integrated parking brake assembly) that I'd rather not disassembly if unnecessary.  I think I'm going to squirt brake cleaner through the ports/bleeders, flush them out by running alcohol through the system, follow up with the brake lubricant, and then seal them in a baggie with some silica gel.

Thanks!

From mattw at webtripper.com  Sat Jan 17 11:26:19 2009
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:26:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Lamps- knob instead of push button, where to find
Message-ID: <497222CB.4090807@webtripper.com>

Any body have a favorite headlamp?

How about head lamps with knobs instead of push buttons for turning on/off?

I have had older ones that I liked better, smaller and with a knob for 
turning the light on/off.
I like the knob because then you can just turn on the red light (it was 
the first) and keep your night vision, then turn it off.
The push buttons force you to run through all the light modes.

It is also easier with a know to tell that the light is off in a bright 
environment, just make sure it is turned all the way.  With a push 
button you may have to take it off or hold your hand in front of it and 
click away.

What I am looking for is something for general use- wiring data centers, 
engine bays, black outs, hunting, camping etc.
I leave for a job in a few weeks and want something that I can mail order.

----  Uh Oh, Kitchen Content?  I really need to register for the food 
forum :-)  Anyone else going to join me?

I could have used my headlamp when I was cleaning the grill attachment 
on my folks 5 Star stove.  Boy does the design of this grill suck, 
cleaning was a pain.  I'm leaving the grill apart just set it back in 
place to make cleaning easier.

On the other hand the oven did ok on the corn bread muffins, even but 
not browned at all.

Matt Wehland

From mattw at webtripper.com  Sat Jan 17 11:31:26 2009
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:31:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman Tools- Quality???
Message-ID: <497223FE.3080607@webtripper.com>

Well I just got a new plastic tool set with lots of stuff in it on sale 
for $100 at Sears.
Here are a few thought, I have just opened all the bags and put the 
tools in their spots.

The box on my last set fell apart years ago and I've needed a new set 
for a while.
This new set has-
assorted wrenches (did not need at all),
1/4",3/8",1/2" drive ratchets (cheap feel)
variety of sockets.
variety of allen keys
screw driver handle w/assorted bits

Some other stuff

The box itself feels nicer than my old (20 year) set, might last longer.
But I don't think it hold the tools in very well, we shall see.
The tools on the other hand just feel cheap.

I will get a chance to use it now that the weather is above 0F.

Still looking for a decent tool set.

Any tips on buying used but not stolen tools?

Matt Wehland

From mattw at webtripper.com  Sat Jan 17 11:36:36 2009
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:36:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Lamps- knob instead of push button,
 where  to find
In-Reply-To: <200901171830.n0HIU0vI029699@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200901171830.n0HIU0vI029699@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <49722534.9090808@webtripper.com>

Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
> Check out what Black Diamond (bdel.com) is building these days - wide
> variety to choose from.
>   
Neat stuff.
> I think everyone has moved away from knobs because they're hard to
> make weatherproof.
>   

Probably a good reason, I just don't like the way the buttons operate.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Jan 17 12:00:04 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:00:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Lamps- knob instead of push button,
 where  to find
In-Reply-To: <497222CB.4090807@webtripper.com>
References: <497222CB.4090807@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <49722AB4.3070206@xxiii.com>

Matt Wehland wrote:
> Any body have a favorite headlamp?
> How about head lamps with knobs instead of push buttons for turning on/off?

Wow, I was completely baffled there for a few.

Thought you were talking about the things on the front of cars.  Then 
"miner's helmet" finally clicked!  Ummm.... no, never used one.

   -W

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sat Jan 17 12:36:25 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:36:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pre-made wood balustrades?
Message-ID: <ACD48830-30AD-4EFA-92D5-791EE247F06F@groupwbench.org>

I need to put a code-compliant railing around the stairwell opening on  
my 2nd floor. Apparently a single 2x4 doesn't cut it :-)

I'd like to buy lengths of balustrade stock but I don't see anything  
out there. Am I dreaming? Will I really have to assemble 24 feet of  
identically-spaced balusters myself?

jim

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sat Jan 17 12:50:39 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:50:39 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] pre-made wood balustrades?
In-Reply-To: <ACD48830-30AD-4EFA-92D5-791EE247F06F@groupwbench.org>
References: <ACD48830-30AD-4EFA-92D5-791EE247F06F@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0901171150o679a7e70y639623aacba56f1e@mail.gmail.com>

I have seen this available for deck railing but not for indoor
railings.  Depanding on how fancy you want it maybe the deck products
are good enough?  We we used is a premade balluster holder rail that
came with premade spacers.  So you cut the rail to length, the drop in
a baluster, then a spacer, then a baluster, then a spacer.  Very easy,
very nice looking.



On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> I need to put a code-compliant railing around the stairwell opening on my
> 2nd floor. Apparently a single 2x4 doesn't cut it :-)
>
> I'd like to buy lengths of balustrade stock but I don't see anything out
> there. Am I dreaming? Will I really have to assemble 24 feet of
> identically-spaced balusters myself?
>
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
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>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of IMG_3462.jpg]

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sat Jan 17 13:05:00 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:05:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Lamps- knob instead of push button,
 where   to find
References: <497222CB.4090807@webtripper.com>
  <49722AB4.3070206@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <11C0E72C51704F15B3979C6D339540F2@KARL>

Yup - confused me too for a few sentences.

I was already composing a tirade about how automakers should never have 
changed the basic headlamp-knob design the for rocker switches, rotary 
switches, stalks, etc. that are so fashionable nowadays.

:-)

Karl


> Matt Wehland wrote:
>> Any body have a favorite headlamp?
>> How about head lamps with knobs instead of push buttons for turning 
>> on/off?
>
> Wow, I was completely baffled there for a few.
>
> Thought you were talking about the things on the front of cars.  Then 
> "miner's helmet" finally clicked!  Ummm.... no, never used one.
>
>   -W

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 17 15:27:52 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:27:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] pre-made wood balustrades?
In-Reply-To: <ACD48830-30AD-4EFA-92D5-791EE247F06F@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <20090117222752.NHXD4110.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Will I really have to 
> assemble 24 feet of identically-spaced balusters myself?

AFAIK, yes.  Possibly worth making up a jig to locate each hole from the
previous one.  Perhaps a length of 2x4, with a screwed-on knob to drop into
the previous hole and some sides tacked on to hold it in place over the
rail?

I once built about 10' of ladder myself, but just used pencil marks for each
hole.  Measured down the side with tape and made a mark each foot; then used
a try square extended to 1-3/4" to mark the hole center.  Worked out well
for me, none of the rungs were visibly out of parallel.  Tricky part was
getting them all lined up in the holes, before the glue dried <G>

One advantage of that method is that each mark's accuracy doesn't depend on
the previous mark.

Randall

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 17 15:28:20 2009
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:28:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] pre-made wood balustrades?
In-Reply-To: <ACD48830-30AD-4EFA-92D5-791EE247F06F@groupwbench.org>
References: <ACD48830-30AD-4EFA-92D5-791EE247F06F@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <49725B84.6090901@earthlink.net>

If you are in the Los Angeles area, check 
http://www.moldingsunlimited.com/ then click the profiles to see the 
stair parts catalog.  You pick the system and all the parts are there.  
They are in Harbor City and a much better source of assorted moldings 
than the box stores.  Cheaper, better quality, many more selections, and 
full service.

Brian

Jim Franklin wrote:
> I need to put a code-compliant railing around the stairwell opening on 
> my 2nd floor. Apparently a single 2x4 doesn't cut it :-)
>
> I'd like to buy lengths of balustrade stock but I don't see anything 
> out there. Am I dreaming? Will I really have to assemble 24 feet of 
> identically-spaced balusters myself?
>
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sat Jan 17 15:43:41 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:43:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
Message-ID: <A014857716D04A748C40CAFB8AF797E6@B50SS>

Hi all,

I have a steel outdoor gate across my drive that needs painting. I don't know
if a rattle can would suffice or should I sand, prime and brush it, etc. It
has some light rust:

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/gate/DSCN5338.JPG
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/gate/DSCN5337.JPG
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/gate/DSCN5336.JPG

I have a compressor and paint guns if that makes more sense. I just don't want
to turn it into a bigger job than it needs to be.

I also would like to know what brand paint you might recommend. Thanks in
advance for any recommendations.

best,

doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van

From mattw at webtripper.com  Sat Jan 17 16:14:58 2009
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:14:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Lamps- knob instead of push button,
 where   to find
In-Reply-To: <200901171938.n0HJcTG3024764@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200901171938.n0HJcTG3024764@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <49726672.5030005@webtripper.com>

Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
>> Probably a good reason, I just don't like the way the buttons operate.

>>
>> Understood! The BD stuff is designed, mostly, to operate with gloves,
>> so you might like it better.
>>
>> Petzl's headlamps used to have the switch built into the lamp housing;
>> you twisted it to turn on/off. Not sure they do that any more, but
>> you might look there
>>     
I'll look into these.
> Ideally, the light should be bright enough that you can tell when it's on :-)
>   
Well a lot of work we do is in racks in a data center.  Dark in parts 
and then walk out into the office and you really can't tell if the light 
is on.
The office is really well lit, with special high voltage color balanced 
dual output level fluorescents that are only on the low level.  They can 
be REALLY bright on high. The whole office area has chroma blue walls 
and lighting to be a makeshift stage.

Matt Wehland

From battmain at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 17 18:57:46 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:57:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Lamps- knob instead of push button,
 where  to find
In-Reply-To: <497222CB.4090807@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <934196.25003.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I use the cheap stuff from Walmart. ~$14.  Has both white
and red LEDs. Works fine in the plane at night. I've also 
used it while working on the car to light up the dark engine
areas. Has a sliding switch. One side white, other side
red. I'll probably need to pick up a new one again. 
Batteries leaked and corroded the contacts. Glad I didn't 
pay more for it. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


--- On Sat, 1/17/09, Matt Wehland <mattw at webtripper.com> wrote:

> From: Matt Wehland <mattw at webtripper.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Head Lamps- knob instead of push button, where to find
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 1:26 PM
> Any body have a favorite headlamp?
> 
> How about head lamps with knobs instead of push buttons for
> turning on/off?
> 
(snip)

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jan 18 06:36:48 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:36:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman Tools- Quality???
In-Reply-To: <497223FE.3080607@webtripper.com>
References: <497223FE.3080607@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090118083258.01c58ab8@cox.net>

At 01:31 PM 1/17/2009, Matt Wehland wrote:

 >Well I just got a new plastic tool set with lots of stuff in it on 
sale for $100 at
 >Sears. ......

 >The box itself feels nicer than my old (20 year) set, might last longer.
 >But I don't think it hold the tools in very well, we shall 
see.  The tools on the
 >other hand just feel cheap....

 >Still looking for a decent tool set.  Any tips on buying used but 
not stolen tools?

Matt,

For tools, try the usual, ebay, discount tool stores on line, pawn 
shops, and thrift
stores.  However, I find that most of the stuff I've looked at at the 
pawn shops
are well used, and to me over priced for their condition.

If you're looking for tool kits, the only good quality ones I can 
think of is the
Xlite stuff - but very expensive!!!!

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jan 18 06:46:05 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:46:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
In-Reply-To: <A014857716D04A748C40CAFB8AF797E6@B50SS>
References: <A014857716D04A748C40CAFB8AF797E6@B50SS>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090118084224.01c7f248@cox.net>

At 05:43 PM 1/17/2009, old dirtbeard wrote:

 >I have a steel outdoor gate across my drive that needs painting. I don't know
 >if a rattle can would suffice or should I sand, prime and brush it, etc. It
 >has some light rust:

 >I have a compressor and paint guns if that makes more sense. I just 
don't want
 >to turn it into a bigger job than it needs to be.

 >I also would like to know what brand paint you might recommend. Thanks in
 >advance for any recommendations.

Doug,

 From the pictures, it looks like the original paint is pretty 
oxidized.  I would think
that you'd want to really rough it up to give the new paint something 
to stick to.
If not, I think the new paint won't stick very well.

As to how you apply the paint, a brush will give you a thicker coat, which for
an outdoor application like this might be better.

As to the paint, I think I'd use something like Rust-o-lieum or one 
of those types
of paint.  They are designed for metal, covering some rust, and outdoor uses.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Jan 18 07:05:02 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:05:02 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
References: <A014857716D04A748C40CAFB8AF797E6@B50SS>
Message-ID: <B3D3239ACB484E988974B763F915794D@KARL>

I agree - looks like a RustOleum job to me.  Wash it and scrub with 
Scotch-Brite, rinse well, and that should take care of your prep.  If any of 
the rust is significant, RustOleum makes a prep product called Rust Reformer 
that's essentially phosphoric acid in a latex paint base.  Sounds pointless, 
but I've used it on heavily rusted outdoor stuff that then sat outside for a 
year or two before painting, and it held beautifully.

If the rust is light, RustOleum 769 red primer works fine.  Spot prime as 
necessary (no need to prime overall), and either spray or brush on the 
topcoat as you prefer.  I've found that RustOleum tends to wear and wear, so 
the better a film you put on now, the longer it should last.  We've had 
stuff go decades and still look good.

No interest in RustOleum - just a satisfied customer.

Karl



> At 05:43 PM 1/17/2009, old dirtbeard wrote:
>
> >I have a steel outdoor gate across my drive that needs painting. I don't 
> >know
> >if a rattle can would suffice or should I sand, prime and brush it, etc. 
> >It
> >has some light rust:
>
> Doug,
>
> From the pictures, it looks like the original paint is pretty
> oxidized.  I would think
> that you'd want to really rough it up to give the new paint something
> to stick to.
> If not, I think the new paint won't stick very well.
>
> As to how you apply the paint, a brush will give you a thicker coat, which 
> for
> an outdoor application like this might be better.
>
> As to the paint, I think I'd use something like Rust-o-lieum or one
> of those types
> of paint.  They are designed for metal, covering some rust, and outdoor 
> uses.
>
> John

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 18 08:57:30 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:57:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
In-Reply-To: <B3D3239ACB484E988974B763F915794D@KARL>
Message-ID: <693090.25519.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Another good metal paint is Hammerite, which you can get in gloss and
semi-gloss as well as "hammered" finish.

One thing you might consider is enamel hardener.  This is a catalyst that you
add to alkyd enamel to make it harden faster and better.  Tractor Supply
stores sell it as part of their Valspar tractor paint line, but the can says
it will work with any alkyd enamel.

An aside on metal enamels:  Most types (e.g. Rust-oleum) can be thinned and
cleaned up with mineral spirits, but other brands (like Zero-Rust and
Hammerite) will not dissolve in mineral spirits at all, and must be thinned
with xylene.  Anyone know why?

Doug



--- On Sun, 1/18/09, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
From: Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
To: "old dirtbeard" <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>, shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 9:05 AM

I agree - looks like a RustOleum job to me.  Wash it and scrub with
Scotch-Brite, rinse well, and that should take care of your prep.  If any of
the
rust is significant, RustOleum makes a prep product called Rust Reformer
that's essentially phosphoric acid in a latex paint base.  Sounds pointless,
but I've used it on heavily rusted outdoor stuff that then sat outside for a
year or two before painting, and it held beautifully.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 18 11:06:02 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:06:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
In-Reply-To: <12775.95794.qm@web81204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <93126.5039.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The interesting thing is that the Xylene-based paints are totally incompatible
with mineral spirits:  If you try to thin the paint or clean the brush, you
just get a gummy mess.

Lacquer thinner also works, but that stuff is not so healthy for cleanup...

Doug



--- On Sun, 1/18/09, Roland Wilhelmy <rwil at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Roland Wilhelmy <rwil at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
To: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 11:44 AM

my guess is that xylene dries faster than mineral spirits.  But maybe it is
just to be 'different';-)

-Roland

From hal at katemuir.com  Sun Jan 18 11:35:05 2009
From: hal at katemuir.com (Hal Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:35:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
In-Reply-To: <93126.5039.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <HJECLIGCCJIHGFIGICMFOEIHKAAA.hal@katemuir.com>

-----Original Message-----

Lacquer thinner also works, but that stuff is not so healthy for cleanup...

And xylene is?
Hal

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 18 18:26:52 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:26:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
In-Reply-To: <HJECLIGCCJIHGFIGICMFOEIHKAAA.hal@katemuir.com>
Message-ID: <798060.79565.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Xylene doesn't dissolve rubber gloves nearly as quickly as lacquer thinner....

Doug


--- On Sun, 1/18/09, Hal Faulkner <hal at katemuir.com> wrote:
From: Hal Faulkner <hal at katemuir.com>
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Painting a steel gate
To: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>, "Roland Wilhelmy" <rwil at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 1:35 PM


-----Original Message-----

Lacquer thinner also works, but that stuff is not so healthy for cleanup...

And xylene is?
Hal

From jmitch at snet.net  Sun Jan 18 19:23:17 2009
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:23:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
Message-ID: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>

    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half inch 
hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves and 
drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I thought 
Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to flow, but I 
can't get the joint hot enough, even with oxy-acetylene.  Any 
suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a very tiny leak, I just 
happed to be looking up and saw the drop hanging on the joint.  Thanks 
for any help.  John Mitchell

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jan 18 19:34:25 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:34:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <0KDP009I95U9IMJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I would say that the only way this can happen is if you still have 
water in the line.  Oxy-acetylene should be major overkill for this 
job.  Go back and make extra sure that the line is really drained.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 09:23 PM 1/18/2009, John Mitchell wrote:
>    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half 
> inch hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves 
> and drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I 
> thought Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to 
> flow, but I can't get the joint hot enough, even with 
> oxy-acetylene.  Any suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a 
> very tiny leak, I just happed to be looking up and saw the drop 
> hanging on the joint.  Thanks for any help.  John Mitchell
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From trevor at boicey.com  Sun Jan 18 20:19:48 2009
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:19:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <4973F154.6090004@boicey.com>

John Mitchell wrote:
>    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half inch 
> hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves and 
> drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I thought 
> Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to flow, but I 
> can't get the joint hot enough, even with oxy-acetylene.  Any 
> suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a very tiny leak, I just 
> happed to be looking up and saw the drop hanging on the joint.  Thanks 
> for any help.  John Mitchell

   If you can't get it hot enough is it because you can't get all the 
water out?

   If so... use the bread trick. Stuff the pipe with some fluffy white 
bread using a stick. Finish the joint.

   The bread will hold back the water, and eventually dissolve into 
nothing. (maybe best to not do this upstream of something like an icemaker!)

From bill at gingerich.us  Sun Jan 18 20:19:52 2009
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:19:52 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <0KDP009I95U9IMJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
	<0KDP009I95U9IMJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2003B67855764A80AC95B92C43A2B21D@shack2>

I'm not a plumber, but I have to agree.  There is still water in the line.
Any water in the line will make soldering very difficult if not impossible.
You may have to cut the pipe to drain the rest of the water.  Then sweat in
another coupling to fix the cut.

A plumber friend told me that he used bread stuffed into a pipe to keep
water from draining to the area he was trying to solder.  After the water
was turned back on the bread would dissolve without a problem.

BillG
OKC



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Trovato
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:34 PM
To: John Mitchell; Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak

I would say that the only way this can happen is if you still have 
water in the line.  Oxy-acetylene should be major overkill for this 
job.  Go back and make extra sure that the line is really drained.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 09:23 PM 1/18/2009, John Mitchell wrote:
>    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half 
> inch hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves 
> and drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I 
> thought Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to 
> flow, but I can't get the joint hot enough, even with 
> oxy-acetylene.  Any suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a 
> very tiny leak, I just happed to be looking up and saw the drop 
> hanging on the joint.  Thanks for any help.  John Mitchell
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as bill at gingerich.us

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Jan 18 20:28:41 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:28:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <2003B67855764A80AC95B92C43A2B21D@shack2>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
	<0KDP009I95U9IMJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2003B67855764A80AC95B92C43A2B21D@shack2>
Message-ID: <0KDP00AOO8C0Z9I0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Regarding the bread trick...  of course he would have to cut the pipe 
before this would even be possible.  Also, they now make these little 
gel things that you can use instead of bread.  You really do have to 
be careful about where the bread ends up, or you will be cleaning out 
a lot of aerators, shower heads, etc.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Jan 18 21:34:10 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:34:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <E8861BF0-F025-4570-9F49-4A23BB22E542@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 18, 2009, at 9:23 PM, John Mitchell wrote:

>   I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half inch  
> hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves and  
> drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I  
> thought Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to  
> flow, but I can't get the joint hot enough, even with oxy- 
> acetylene.  Any suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a very  
> tiny leak, I just happed to be looking up and saw the drop hanging  
> on the joint.  Thanks for any help.  John Mitchell

Like others have said, there is still water in the line that is  
absorbing all the heat. If you open a faucet, eventually you'll steam  
all the water and then the pipe will heat. It is possible to heat the  
pipe so fast that the local area will heat enough to melt solder, but  
you need to be lucky. Flux the area well beforehand, and have solder  
at the ready. Is it possible you're heating to temp, but are just not  
seeing the sdolder melt? If you use new solder, remembering to let the  
pipe temp melt the solder, not the flame, you might see that the pipe  
is heating up more than you think.

jim

From JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu  Sun Jan 18 21:37:58 2009
From: JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:37:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <2003B67855764A80AC95B92C43A2B21D@shack2>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net><0KDP009I95U9IMJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2003B67855764A80AC95B92C43A2B21D@shack2>
Message-ID: <977B04C99C6C4957A1F4A00BAFE55796@HPPavilion>

Don't cut the pipe.  Drill a small hole (1/16th) in the bottom, open up a
faucet and put some air pressure on it through the faucet.  If there is
water present, it will come out.  When it stops, solder up the hole. 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Gingerich
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:20 PM
To: 'Steven Trovato'; 'John Mitchell'; 'Shop Talk List'
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak

I'm not a plumber, but I have to agree.  There is still water in the line.
Any water in the line will make soldering very difficult if not impossible.
You may have to cut the pipe to drain the rest of the water.  Then sweat in
another coupling to fix the cut.

A plumber friend told me that he used bread stuffed into a pipe to keep
water from draining to the area he was trying to solder.  After the water
was turned back on the bread would dissolve without a problem.

BillG
OKC



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Trovato
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:34 PM
To: John Mitchell; Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak

I would say that the only way this can happen is if you still have water in
the line.  Oxy-acetylene should be major overkill for this job.  Go back and
make extra sure that the line is really drained.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 09:23 PM 1/18/2009, John Mitchell wrote:
>    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half  inch 
>hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves  and 
>drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I  thought 
>Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to  flow, but I 
>can't get the joint hot enough, even with  oxy-acetylene.  Any 
>suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a  very tiny leak, I just 
>happed to be looking up and saw the drop  hanging on the joint.  Thanks 
>for any help.  John Mitchell 
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as bill at gingerich.us

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From shiples at comcast.net  Sun Jan 18 22:13:54 2009
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:13:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <E8861BF0-F025-4570-9F49-4A23BB22E542@groupwbench.org>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net> <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090118205400.031e2608@mail.comcast.net>

>Like others have said, there is still water in the line that is
>absorbing all the heat.

I just went through this.
First you use a propane torch and you can't get enough heat because of the 
water.
Then use your acetylene torch and you can't get enough heat because of the 
water.
And then you replace the fitting and you can't make a joint because now you 
got the joint hot enough but there's enough water there to ruin your joint 
because the steam keeps the solder from flowing around the entire joint.
And then you replace the fitting with another fitting but you make an extra 
effort to get the water out of the line.

Lesson learned: Joints need to be dry and clean

Like a lot of shop procedures, it's easy when done right, and impossible 
when done wrong.

I'd never used those pre-soldered fittings before and they work great.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Jan 19 05:33:30 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:33:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090119073145.01c49960@cox.net>

At 09:23 PM 1/18/2009, John Mitchell wrote:

 >I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half inch 
hot water line.
 >I  shut off the hot water, opened some valves and drained the line 
out through
 >a  spigot I have in the garage.....

John,

What about putting a patch over the leak.  Find a piece of rubber, or old hose,
wrap the pipe and put a hose clamp on to hold the rubber in place.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Jan 19 07:15:56 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:15:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <1E790E7DBA424E9AA9E818EFEEB37E68@DADSTOY>

Why not get a can of that spray stuff the loud mouth guy on TV peddles? ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Mitchell
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:23 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak


    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half inch
hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves and
drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I thought
Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to flow, but I
can't get the joint hot enough, even with oxy-acetylene.  Any
suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a very tiny leak, I just
happed to be looking up and saw the drop hanging on the joint.  Thanks
for any help.  John Mitchell _______________________________________________
Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

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From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Jan 19 09:17:44 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:17:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <B41FA29957304833AB36D8B5A1BC36C7@KARL>

As everyone said, it sure sounds like there's still water in the line.  But 
if you've used oxy-acetylene and are sure there's no water, it's possible 
you've overheated the joint and it's just not going to flow.

The new lead-free solder, which works great otherwise, seems more prone to 
burning, but it can happen if you overheat regular lead solder too.  Once 
that happens, it's best to cut the burned area out and start over.

I'd just cut it out, slip in a new section with stopless couplings, and 
re-solder, using the bread trick if you can't stop the water any other way.

Karl



>    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half inch hot 
> water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves and drained the 
> line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I thought Id be able to 
> heat the joint enough to get the solder to flow, but I can't get the joint 
> hot enough, even with oxy-acetylene.  Any suggestions On how I can repair 
> this?  It's a very tiny leak, I just happed to be looking up and saw the 
> drop hanging on the joint.  Thanks for any help.  John Mitchell
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Jan 19 14:32:11 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:32:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090119162915.01c7b008@cox.net>

At 09:23 PM 1/18/2009, John Mitchell wrote:

 >I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half inch 
hot water line.
 >I shut off the hot water, opened some valves and drained the line 
out through a
 >spigot I have in the garage......


John,

I don't know why I didn't think of this before.  There is a new push coupling
called "shark bite".  As long as your leak isn't right at a bend you 
can cut out
the piece of pipe with the leak, and install one of the shark bite 
couplings at each
end and simply insert a piece of pipe into the gap.  They are a bit expensive,
about $5 each.  I installed them on my front and rear spickets when I had to
replace them.  No soldering!!!  Plus they can be undone with a special tool.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jan 19 21:06:08 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:06:08 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090119162915.01c7b008@cox.net>
Message-ID: <OF643DB88A.F7DDF1FE-ON43257544.001719F2-43257544.00176ECB@mail.megageek.com>

I want to say that I ONLY use these connections now.  But I found a 
version (available at HD and Lowes) that can be undone with no tools. 

For the extra price, these fittings are magic.  The ability to remove a 
section of pipe and put it back without any tools or soldering is awesome.

Another great feature of these is that you can connect pex to copper to 
pvc, etc.  They fit it all. 

They even say that you can use these for compressors, but i would want to 
use metal for the moisture wicking.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 21:18:12 2009
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:18:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Okay...  So I know Craftsman isn't the best brand out out there, nor necessarily well liked on this list, but it works well for my purposes.
I just bought this set tonight, and it seems like a good deal, so I thought I would pass it along...

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934302000P?sid=I0084400010000100312&aff=Y

Sears #00934302000, model #34302; it's a 302 pc set for $199, minus 10%.  Works out to about $.60/socket.

From bill at gingerich.us  Mon Jan 19 22:01:53 2009
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:01:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8C6CD65E1A28415F86F3EBE8822F9F0A@shack2>

If you're happy with them, that's all that matters.  Those that don't like
Craftsman don't have to buy them.  I've had Craftsman tools for almost 30
years, and have had virtually zero issues with them.  My 1/2 inch ratchet
failed a couple of years ago, but the warranty replacement handle works
fine.  My only complaint is that the ratchets take too much swing to catch
the next tooth in compact places.  But for the cost, I don't think you can
go wrong with the set you bought.  You can always buy ratchets you like
better later on.  The warranty and availability of replacements is
worthwhile, IMHO.

BillG
OKC



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Obaa
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:18 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....

Okay...  So I know Craftsman isn't the best brand out out there, nor
necessarily well liked on this list, but it works well for my purposes.
I just bought this set tonight, and it seems like a good deal, so I thought
I would pass it along...

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934302000P?sid=I00844000100001003
12&aff=Y

Sears #00934302000, model #34302; it's a 302 pc set for $199, minus 10%.
Works out to about $.60/socket.
You are subscribed as bill at gingerich.us

Shop-talk mailing list

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http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Jan 19 22:01:32 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:01:32 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <8C6CD65E1A28415F86F3EBE8822F9F0A@shack2>
Message-ID: <OF3E33F7B5.C9518D6F-ON43257544.001C287E-43257544.001C8166@mail.megageek.com>

For me, I always wanted to try a nice set of wrenches.  My problem was 
that when I was a little kid, about 15yo, my dad bought me a cheap set of 
wrenches for Christmas one year (he knew me well!)  He wanted to see how I 
would take care of them and use them before getting me a great set.

The problem was, this cheap set of wrenches must have been defective, 
because, it's been over 32 years and they still work great!  I can't kill 
the damn things.  They are STILL my primary wrench.  I can't believe it. 
even the cheap plastic divider in the metal case is still intact.  I guess 
this was the one set that got out of Japan that was meant to last.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
01/20/2009 07:52 AM

To
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....






If you're happy with them, that's all that matters.  Those that don't like
Craftsman don't have to buy them.  I've had Craftsman tools for almost 30
years, and have had virtually zero issues with them.  My 1/2 inch ratchet
failed a couple of years ago, but the warranty replacement handle works
fine.  My only complaint is that the ratchets take too much swing to catch
the next tooth in compact places.  But for the cost, I don't think you can
go wrong with the set you bought.  You can always buy ratchets you like
better later on.  The warranty and availability of replacements is
worthwhile, IMHO.

BillG
OKC



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Obaa
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:18 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....

Okay...  So I know Craftsman isn't the best brand out out there, nor
necessarily well liked on this list, but it works well for my purposes.
I just bought this set tonight, and it seems like a good deal, so I 
thought
I would pass it along...

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934302000P?sid=I00844000100001003

12&aff=Y

Sears #00934302000, model #34302; it's a 302 pc set for $199, minus 10%.
Works out to about $.60/socket.
You are subscribed as bill at gingerich.us

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

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From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 20 06:59:12 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:59:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090120084607.01f50948@cox.net>

At 11:18 PM 1/19/2009, Obaa wrote:

 >Okay...  So I know Craftsman isn't the best brand out out there, 
nor necessarily
 >well liked on this list, but it works well for my purposes.  I just 
bought this set
 >tonight, and it seems like a good deal, so I thought I would pass it along...

 >http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934302000P?sid=I0084400010000100312&aff=Y

Obaa,

I agree with Bill Gingerich, most of my tools are Craftsman, and I too have had
many for over 30 years.  As a hobbiest, I can't see paying the price for MAC,
Snap-On, etc.

I do have some cheap tools, like Moose either because I couldn't afford the
good ones, or I wanted to see if I'd really use it before spending the extra
money for a "good" version of the tool.

As to sets, I've never bought a set like you just purchased.  When I 
was younger
I couldn't afford one.  So I purchased the tools I needed when I needed them.
Yes it probably cost me more over the long run, but I never had to shell out
too much at any one time.  Plus when I was looking at sets, they usually had
tools that I either didn't want or need, like a hack saw, a hammer, files, etc.
But over time, I must admitt that I did end up having to buy these other tools.

Finally, it depends on what you want it for.  I have a couple of cheap tool
sets (approx $50 ea) that are thrown in the trunks of our various cars so I
can make simple repairs on the road.  If anything happens to them, I won't
get upset.  These only have a few wrenches and sockets, etc. similar to
this one:

http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/tools/part1/2-TookKit.jpg

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Jan 20 08:12:57 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:12:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090120084607.01f50948@cox.net>
References: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net><602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20090120084607.01f50948@cox.net>
Message-ID: <22BC7B39A16C4452A994309F3791A997@OwnerPC>

mine are also mostly Craftsman with a good bit of Proto...some snap-on, 
Williams, s-k,matco, whatever I could find at the flea market.  For a 
weekend wrencher I can't justify truck tools, although if I see a deal I'll 
pop for it sometimes... but it has to be a steal

Craftsman has only failed me one time with a 3/8" ratchet that I expected 
too much of.  As I've gotten older and have more discretionary money I'll 
buy a nice set of SK smooth 72 tooth ratchets or screwdriver set... but at 
60, I've got more tools than I can use now...  the good thing is that I 
don't have to run to the laps or hardware to get something I'm missing...

Don't fret your c-man tools... they're in more home garages than snap-on by 
far.

my horde  http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/tools/toolpage.htm  this is 
just what is in the shop... there is a full set in the house, the shed, tool 
rolls in each car and a set at my daughters (a neat blow molded Cresent set 
that I picked up for 50 bucks)   BTW those big old honkin angle wrenches are 
for sale... I need room in that box

john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
To: "Obaa" <obaa996 at yahoo.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....


> At 11:18 PM 1/19/2009, Obaa wrote:
>
> >Okay...  So I know Craftsman isn't the best brand out out there,
> nor necessarily
> >well liked on this list, but it works well for my purposes.  I just
> bought this set
> >tonight, and it seems like a good deal, so I thought I would pass it 
> >along...
>
> >http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934302000P?sid=I0084400010000100312&aff=Y
>
> Obaa,
>
> I agree with Bill Gingerich, most of my tools are Craftsman, and I too 
> have had
> many for over 30 years.  As a hobbiest, I can't see paying the price for 
> MAC,
> Snap-On, etc.
>
> I do have some cheap tools, like Moose either because I couldn't afford 
> the
> good ones, or I wanted to see if I'd really use it before spending the 
> extra
> money for a "good" version of the tool.
>
> As to sets, I've never bought a set like you just purchased.  When I was 
> younger
> I couldn't afford one.  So I purchased the tools I needed when I needed 
> them.
> Yes it probably cost me more over the long run, but I never had to shell 
> out
> too much at any one time.  Plus when I was looking at sets, they usually 
> had
> tools that I either didn't want or need, like a hack saw, a hammer, files, 
> etc.
> But over time, I must admitt that I did end up having to buy these other 
> tools.
>
> Finally, it depends on what you want it for.  I have a couple of cheap 
> tool
> sets (approx $50 ea) that are thrown in the trunks of our various cars so 
> I
> can make simple repairs on the road.  If anything happens to them, I won't
> get upset.  These only have a few wrenches and sockets, etc. similar to
> this one:
>
> http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/tools/part1/2-TookKit.jpg

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jan 20 11:00:11 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:00:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <8C6CD65E1A28415F86F3EBE8822F9F0A@shack2>
References: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<8C6CD65E1A28415F86F3EBE8822F9F0A@shack2>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901201000t4c5786dbr732dca6e11b9dd0b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:
> If you're happy with them, that's all that matters.  Those that don't like
> Craftsman don't have to buy them.  I've had Craftsman tools for almost 30
> years, and have had virtually zero issues with them.  My 1/2 inch ratchet
> failed a couple of years ago, but the warranty replacement handle works
> fine.  My only complaint is that the ratchets take too much swing to catch
> the next tooth in compact places.  But for the cost, I don't think you can
> go wrong with the set you bought.  You can always buy ratchets you like
> better later on.  The warranty and availability of replacements is
> worthwhile, IMHO.

I just dug a set of craftsmen sockets out of a car that's heading for
crushing.  It's a 76, they've been there the whole time, I think.  The
ratchet handle is junk, it's got about 15 teeth.  The sockets, though,
are nicer than my recent (well, 10 years or so) craftsmen stuff.
Thinner walls, better chrome.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jan 20 11:18:27 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:18:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40901201000t4c5786dbr732dca6e11b9dd0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<8C6CD65E1A28415F86F3EBE8822F9F0A@shack2>
	<2400a5d40901201000t4c5786dbr732dca6e11b9dd0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49761573.1030702@milleredp.com>

> I just dug a set of craftsmen sockets out of a car that's heading for
> crushing.  It's a 76, they've been there the whole time, I think.  The
> ratchet handle is junk, it's got about 15 teeth.  The sockets, though,
> are nicer than my recent (well, 10 years or so) craftsmen stuff.
> Thinner walls, better chrome.

I have Craftsman stuff extending back sixty years or so, plus 
Snap-On/Blue Point, S-K, Facom, Utica, Proto/Challenger, Stanley (which 
is now what Proto is anyway, right?), Husky in old US-made (*my* first 
socket set was a Husky circa early '70s) and recent Home Depot-grade 
Chinese (only when I *have* to), a couple Japanese brands that seem to 
last quite well (I've got a couple old Center brand flex ratchets that 
are my favorites by a mile), some old Wards Powr-Kraft, a couple 
Herbrand Van-Chrome that came from my grandfather, etc.

Craftsman is still fairly well made, but they've definitely fattened up 
the wall thicknesses etc to reduce breakage and returns under their 
lifetime warranty.  I've broken a few of the old ones, I shed a couple 
tears every time I do (because they were my father's, because I hate to 
lose a good tool, and because the replacement won't be as good.)

For me, I grade tools based on whether they're stuff I want to keep in 
the shop, stuff I'm willing to take to the track, or they're stuff I 
don't mind taking to the junkyard.

I'm still ticked off that a couple weeks back I managed to lose my 
thirty-year-old ball-joint pickle-fork at the local pick-n-pull...

John.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan 20 12:49:52 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:49:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <49761573.1030702@milleredp.com>
References: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net><602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com><8C6CD65E1A28415F86F3EBE8822F9F0A@shack2><2400a5d40901201000t4c5786dbr732dca6e11b9dd0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<49761573.1030702@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <188b01c97b38$431a1e60$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I'm still ticked off that a couple weeks back I managed to lose my
> thirty-year-old ball-joint pickle-fork at the local pick-n-pull...

If it's any consolation, John, that's how I managed to lose my old 1/2"
ratchet as well.  Had it stuck in my hip pocket when I shinnied under a car
to pull something, and it apparently fell out.  Didn't take more than 30
steps before I missed it, but it was gone when I got back.

Randall

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Jan 20 13:15:02 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:15:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <188b01c97b38$431a1e60$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <797323271.1522201232482502107.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
 
> If it's any consolation, John, that's how I managed to lose my old
> 1/2" ratchet

Had a 1/2" Snap-On ratchet.  It was old and grubby and I was darned if I knew where it came from.  Sue was driving a Renault GTA that decided to toss its LF wheel on the freeway.  I rousted a couple of the teenagers and we went out there with the Suburban to pick her up.  Got the wheel remounted in the dark out in the weeds.  Threw everything helter-skelter into the truck and drove both vehicles home.  It was not until the next day when I had time to regroup that I realized the ratchet was not in the truck.  Just another mystery tool I hope someone else found and got to use...

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L   1979 Caterham 7
1993 Suburban  1994 Miata C-package  2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net   
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums   http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 13:22:26 2009
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:22:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <781831.19945.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

>my horde  http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/tools/toolpage.htm  this is
>just what is in the shop... there is a full set in the house, the shed, >tool rolls in each car and a set at my daughters (a neat blow molded >Cresent set that I picked up for 50 bucks)   BTW those big old honkin >angle wrenches are for sale... I need room in that box


Wow!  I like how neatly your tools are organized!  Mine are currently spilling out of my toolbox as I don't have enough room to keep them all neatly laid out like that!
Are all your sockets on rails?  Now that I have a large collection of sockets, I'll need to organize them better than metric vs. SAE.  I've seen a few of the socket trays, but they don't seem to match up with the sockets I have, meaning there are empty spots and extra sockets (that, or the sockets won't match the labels), plus there seems to be lot of empty space and that the deep sockets are too tall to fit in the drawers.  However, I never had much luck with the rails, as the big sockets simply don't stay on (the clips can't hold the weight), or the clips simply come off the rail.  I'd like to see/hear how you folks organize your tools....

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 13:29:42 2009
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:29:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water de-ionizing resin?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <997542.54346.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Somewhat on topic, maybe?

I got a water de-ionizer last year as a present; it's this one:
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11201522&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US

The thing works really well if I limit the water flow through it to a level it can handle; I can wash the car on a hot afternoon and not worry about drying it off.
It's seen enough use now that the resin for de-ionizing needs replacement (there is a meter built into the device which monitors water quality).  The only source of this stuff that I am aware of is from the manufacturer, who thinks quite highly of it based on the price.  I'm sure this stuff must be generic across different companies, but I'm not sure what it is, or how to look for it.  Do any of you know what an equivalent substitute and source might be?

Thanks!

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan 20 17:56:41 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:56:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <188b01c97b38$431a1e60$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <mailman.15.1232391601.18669.shop-talk@autox.team.net><602727.98966.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com><8C6CD65E1A28415F86F3EBE8822F9F0A@shack2><2400a5d40901201000t4c5786dbr732dca6e11b9dd0b@mail.gmail.com><49761573.1030702@milleredp.com>
	<188b01c97b38$431a1e60$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <3F8E21F0C0734933BDF71F73F29FF836@HPPavilion>

I drove my '72 Vega for two weeks before the combination wrench (Craftsman)
eventually worked it's way out from between the fender and firewall,
bouncing off the bottom of the car a time or two, so I would know to stop
and pick it up.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:50 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....

> I'm still ticked off that a couple weeks back I managed to lose my 
> thirty-year-old ball-joint pickle-fork at the local pick-n-pull...

If it's any consolation, John, that's how I managed to lose my old 1/2"
ratchet as well.  Had it stuck in my hip pocket when I shinnied under a car
to pull something, and it apparently fell out.  Didn't take more than 30
steps before I missed it, but it was gone when I got back.

Randall
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Tue Jan 20 18:10:14 2009
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:10:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman Tools
Message-ID: <472A5A31D3BF47A29C260432FEA81B3E@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Some years back a young tool salesman at Sears submitted a suggestion for a
quick release ratchet, the home office told him they would check into it but
did not have intentions of going very far with it, less than one year later
"Craftsman" had a full nationwide sale on a totally new "quick release
ratchet",  Sears made it a really big deal introduction, but' only gave the
employee $5,000 bucks, he sued and came away with ==$105 million== , his
claim, they lied to him about what he had and their plans for it..  "FT"

From brabel at comcast.net  Tue Jan 20 18:16:01 2009
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:16:01 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water de-ionizing resin?
In-Reply-To: <997542.54346.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <997542.54346.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <10D2C4BF-1206-426A-92F5-4EE61A76E1C7@comcast.net>

I, too, got one of these deionized water setups from Costco. I can  
wash my black car and put it away wet, with no spots. I plan to use it  
for washing windows, too. I saw a van in England where the guy was  
scrubbing leaded-glass windows with a sudsy wand and then rinsing --  
no squeegee. I asked him about his process, and found that he had a  
tank of deionized water in the van, with a 12-volt pumping system  
feeding his hose nozzle

I haven't seen any degradation in the original batch of resin  
crystals, and the unit comes with a spare packet, but someday I'll  
need to find a source for the stuff.

- Bill Rabel


>
> I got a water de-ionizer last year as a present; it's this one:
> http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11201522&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US
>
> The thing works really well if I limit the water flow through it to  
> a level it can handle; I can wash the car on a hot afternoon and not  
> worry about drying it off.
> It's seen enough use now that the resin for de-ionizing needs  
> replacement (there is a meter built into the device which monitors  
> water quality).  The only source of this stuff that I am aware of is  
> from the manufacturer, who thinks quite highly of it based on the  
> price.  I'm sure this stuff must be generic across different  
> companies, but I'm not sure what it is, or how to look for it.  Do  
> any of you know what an equivalent substitute and source might be?

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jan 20 18:22:09 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:22:09 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman Tools
References: <472A5A31D3BF47A29C260432FEA81B3E@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <B42DE6EC27B84741B7E326235DB5279C@KARL>

That unsung hero was Peter M. Roberts

ISOA (Illinois Sports Owners Association - our local Triumph club) gives out 
the Peter M. Roberts award every month to the member who does the nicest 
thing for another member - helping to get his car going, etc.

Karl



> Some years back a young tool salesman at Sears submitted a suggestion for 
> a
> quick release ratchet, the home office told him they would check into it 
> but
> did not have intentions of going very far with it, less than one year 
> later
> "Craftsman" had a full nationwide sale on a totally new "quick release
> ratchet",  Sears made it a really big deal introduction, but' only gave 
> the
> employee $5,000 bucks, he sued and came away with ==$105 million== , his
> claim, they lied to him about what he had and their plans for it..  "FT"

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 20 20:31:45 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:31:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <797323271.1522201232482502107.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <399668.2274.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Funny.  The only time I ever saw a car that had lost a wheel, it was a Renault, too.  Did yours also have only three studs per wheel?

Doug


--- On Tue, 1/20/09, pethier at comcast.net <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:

> From: pethier at comcast.net <pethier at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
> To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 3:15 PM
> ----- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>  
> > If it's any consolation, John, that's how I
> managed to lose my old
> > 1/2" ratchet
> 
> Had a 1/2" Snap-On ratchet.  It was old and grubby and
> I was darned if I knew where it came from.  Sue was driving
> a Renault GTA that decided to toss its LF wheel on the
> freeway.  I rousted a couple of the teenagers and we went
> out there with the Suburban to pick her up.  Got the wheel
> remounted in the dark out in the weeds.  Threw everything
> helter-skelter into the truck and drove both vehicles home. 
> It was not until the next day when I had time to regroup
> that I realized the ratchet was not in the truck.  Just
> another mystery tool I hope someone else found and got to
> use...

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jan 20 20:42:34 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:42:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <399668.2274.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <797323271.1522201232482502107.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<399668.2274.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901201942l2fe4d018xb9e48819e0f4d131@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Funny.  The only time I ever saw a car that had lost a wheel, it was a Renault, too.  Did yours also have only three studs per wheel?

Vehicles with five wheel studs can lose wheels, too.  This can lead to
not terribly amusing things happening on the NJ turnpike.  Not that I
have any personal experience with this.  Oh no.  It was a friend.
Really.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Jan 20 21:31:04 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:31:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....
In-Reply-To: <399668.2274.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <439734683.1662591232512264352.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>

> Funny.  The only time I ever saw a car that had lost a wheel, it was a
> Renault, too.  Did yours also have only three studs per wheel?

I think it was four studs per wheel.  We didn't own it.  It belonged to one of the teenagers.  Pretty quick car, but it ate motor mounts for breakfast.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L   1979 Caterham 7
1993 Suburban  1994 Miata C-package  2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net   
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums   http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

From jmitch at snet.net  Tue Jan 20 22:15:00 2009
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:15:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
In-Reply-To: <4974844B.9060906@snet.net>
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net><0KDP009I95U9IMJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2003B67855764A80AC95B92C43A2B21D@shack2>
	<977B04C99C6C4957A1F4A00BAFE55796@HPPavilion>
	<4974844B.9060906@snet.net>
Message-ID: <4976AF54.50104@snet.net>

    It worked perfectly!  The drain hole allowed the steam and water to 
escape and I was able to remelt the solder without taking the joint 
apart... Thanks so much. John Mitchell

John Mitchell wrote:
> Great idea, I'll give it a try first.  John
>
> Jack Brooks wrote:
>> Don't cut the pipe.  Drill a small hole (1/16th) in the bottom, open 
>> up a
>> faucet and put some air pressure on it through the faucet.  If there is
>> water present, it will come out.  When it stops, solder up the hole.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
>> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Gingerich
>> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:20 PM
>> To: 'Steven Trovato'; 'John Mitchell'; 'Shop Talk List'
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
>>
>> I'm not a plumber, but I have to agree.  There is still water in the 
>> line.
>> Any water in the line will make soldering very difficult if not 
>> impossible.
>> You may have to cut the pipe to drain the rest of the water.  Then 
>> sweat in
>> another coupling to fix the cut.
>>
>> A plumber friend told me that he used bread stuffed into a pipe to keep
>> water from draining to the area he was trying to solder.  After the 
>> water
>> was turned back on the bread would dissolve without a problem.
>>
>> BillG
>> OKC
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
>> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Trovato
>> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:34 PM
>> To: John Mitchell; Shop Talk List
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
>>
>> I would say that the only way this can happen is if you still have 
>> water in
>> the line.  Oxy-acetylene should be major overkill for this job.  Go 
>> back and
>> make extra sure that the line is really drained.
>>
>> -Steve Trovato
>> strovato at optonline.net
>>
>> At 09:23 PM 1/18/2009, John Mitchell wrote:
>>  
>>>    I have a pin hole drip in one of the solder joints in my half  
>>> inch hot water line.  I shut off the hot water, opened some valves  
>>> and drained the line out through a spigot I have in the garage.  I  
>>> thought Id be able to heat the joint enough to get the solder to  
>>> flow, but I can't get the joint hot enough, even with  
>>> oxy-acetylene.  Any suggestions On how I can repair this?  It's a  
>>> very tiny leak, I just happed to be looking up and saw the drop  
>>> hanging on the joint.  Thanks for any help.  John Mitchell 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>
>>> You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>>>
>>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>>
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>>
>>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>>     
>> You are subscribed as bill at gingerich.us
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>> You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as jmitch at snet.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Jan 21 05:35:56 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:35:56 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] was Craftsman deal... now organizational stuff.
In-Reply-To: <781831.19945.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <781831.19945.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D357D4C05E6D4E10A8FD1C6F43A8B6A9@OwnerPC>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Obaa" <obaa996 at yahoo.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman deal....


my horde  http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/tools/toolpage.htm  this is
just what is in the shop... there is a full set in the house, the shed, >tool
rolls in each car and a set at my daughters (a neat blow molded Cresent set
that I picked up for 50 bucks)   BTW those big old honkin >angle wrenches are
for sale... I need room in that box


 Wow!  I like how neatly your tools are organized!  Mine are currently
spilling out of my toolbox as I don't have enough room to keep them all neatly
laid out like that!

You'd be surprised ... the organization doesn't take up that much more room
and when you get it all done you're not wasting time searching for a
particular size... you know where it is

the wrench racks and socket rails have really helped me track my tools better.
I know if there is a hole ?? something is missing and the search is on... with
a drawer full of loose ones I never knew.


 Are all your sockets on rails?

most are...  I have a couple sets that are just on the metal clips... small
collections that are too small to justify a rail and two is too many for one
rail.   I used the ERNST mfg. rails and wrench racks
http://www.ernstmfg.com/  .   They are a little pricy... at least more than
Sears or H.F. but comparable with the Hansen sets... but I spent a grand on
the box and have several thousand in tools... whats a few bucks for a one time
purchase of racks and rails ??  Order a catalog and browse... I'll bet you can
find your solution.  You can also call and talk to a tech about your
organization questions and they can advise on what product will best fit your
needs.  AND each clip is labeled by you with included stickies.  So those
missing sizes or the odd sizes that most folks don't have can be included.
They have rail sets with a base that holds 3 rails securely.  I did find in my
deep drawer with deep large 1/2" drive stuff that I was about 1/8" too high so
I removed the base and made one from 14 gauge sheet metal and some sheet metal
screws...

I need to buy a couple more rails for the I.R. impact sockets I just picked up
and you can see that they are laying on their side in a shallow drawer.  I
wish my cabinet had more than one wide deep drawer !


Now that I have a large collection of sockets, I'll need to organize them
better than metric vs. SAE.  I've seen a few of the socket trays, but they
don't seem to match up with the sockets I have, meaning there are empty spots
and extra sockets (that, or the sockets won't match the labels),


if you love tools and live to buy them you should check into he garage
forum.... (real tool affectionados)
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4
These guys discuss tools by their part numbers.  Lots of Snap-on junkies but
there is good info there on organization, who makes what tools, evaluations of
new stuff and another section deals with every faze of building your own
mancave/garage.  Anyway, someone there mentioned using the Hansen sockets
racks and just sanding off the sizes on the top of the posts and relabeling
with a extra fine sharpie pen...  my hand is not that steady anymore !!  I'd
have a hard time writing 25/32" on the top of a plastic post that is 1/4" in
diameter.

plus there seems to be lot of empty space and that the deep sockets are too
tall to fit in the drawers.  However, I never had much luck with the rails, as
the big sockets simply don't stay on (the clips can't hold the weight), or the
clips simply come off the rail.  I'd like to see/hear how you folks organize
your tools....


these rails hold securely but are amazingly easy to remove, especially with
several rails mounted to the base... you just rest you hand on the other
rails..select your socket and pull up.

disclaimer... I have no affiliation with Ernst Mfg or it's partners, other
than being a satisfied customer and investing a small fortune in their
products.

later
John

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 09:21:13 2009
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:21:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was Craftsman deal... now organizational stuff.
In-Reply-To: <D357D4C05E6D4E10A8FD1C6F43A8B6A9@OwnerPC>
References: <781831.19945.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<D357D4C05E6D4E10A8FD1C6F43A8B6A9@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20090121111455.041523f8@yahoo.com>

Hi Jon....  :-)


At 1/21/2009 at 07:35, Shakespearean monkeys danced on john niolon's 
keyboard and said:

>BTW those big old honkin >angle wrenches are
>for sale... I need room in that box

Brand.  Sizes?  Price?  zip = 18444.


>if you love tools and live to buy them you should check into he garage
>forum.... (real tool affectionados)
>http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Uh-huh....  +1 on that!


>Anyway, someone there mentioned using the Hansen sockets
>racks and just sanding off the sizes on the top of the posts and relabeling
>with a extra fine sharpie pen...  my hand is not that steady anymore !!  I'd
>have a hard time writing 25/32" on the top of a plastic post that is 1/4" in
>diameter.

<raises hand>  I couldn't write that either, luckily, I don't yet own 
a 25/32" socket!  Plus, if you did, you'd have to shift everyone over 
one space and would need to re-write bunches.  I've just had to 
replace a "20" with "21" a couple times.  The Grip ones may be better 
for this - never seen them in person though.


>However, I never had much luck with the rails, as
>the big sockets simply don't stay on (the clips can't hold the weight), or the
>clips simply come off the rail.

Plastic rails.  Either big $ for the ernst ones (that are reversible) 
or the HF ones for cheap that do everything (except reverse).  HF & 
Sears uses a ball-bearing to hold the socket, ernst uses the bent 
plastic lever.  I have an ernst for the u-pull-it bag - since I can 
fit 25 sockets on the rail.  That way, I have one rail to pull out of 
the bag and I have all the sockets I've brought.  For the garage, I 
use Sears rails.




Cheers!

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 12:42:38 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:42:38 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] was Craftsman deal... now organizational stuff.
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20090121111455.041523f8@yahoo.com>
References: <781831.19945.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<D357D4C05E6D4E10A8FD1C6F43A8B6A9@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090121111455.041523f8@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360901211142l4d99b94akd82c98603dbd3aa@mail.gmail.com>

*Wull, My input is in the storage of sockets.*
**
*I hated every rail or board system I ever tried for sockets.*
**
*One day, prowling a surplus store, I found a stack of BIG muffin pans . .
24" x 36" with big individual muffin indentions.  I cut one down to fit my
large tool cabinet and marked a pocket for each socket size starting with
the smallest 1/4' drive and continuing up through the  1/2" drives.*

*This results in having all the sockets of one size in ONE pocket:  I might
have 1/2" sockets of 1/4", 3/8" & 1/2" drives including short and tall.  *

*This works for me:  I go for a socket KNOWING what size I want and can then
select which drive and length.*

*You don't HAVE to use a muffin tin . .  any system of dividers to give one
a place for EVERY size you own will work.  I find that 24 divisions gives me
a pocket for every size fractional socket up thru 1 1/2" *

*If I used metrics much, I'd do the same thing in another drawer.*

Tony

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 12:48:58 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:48:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] was Craftsman deal... now organizational stuff.
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360901211142l4d99b94akd82c98603dbd3aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <781831.19945.qm@web54304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<D357D4C05E6D4E10A8FD1C6F43A8B6A9@OwnerPC>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20090121111455.041523f8@yahoo.com>
	<ea2385360901211142l4d99b94akd82c98603dbd3aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40901211148y7ab3b8belce676ac5996e7446@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark
<eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> *This results in having all the sockets of one size in ONE pocket:  I might
> have 1/2" sockets of 1/4", 3/8" & 1/2" drives including short and tall.  *
>
> *This works for me:  I go for a socket KNOWING what size I want and can then
> select which drive and length.*

On the other hand, I usually go knowing I want metric (or SAE) 3/8
drive (or 1/4 or 1/2).  Then I take a rail to whatever I'm working on.
 It's very rare that I need only one size, or that I know which sizes
I need before I start.  It doesn't help that I never do work near the
toolbox, either.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From lee at automate-it.com  Wed Jan 21 16:27:48 2009
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:27:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman Tools
In-Reply-To: <472A5A31D3BF47A29C260432FEA81B3E@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <472A5A31D3BF47A29C260432FEA81B3E@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <2098.192.246.38.159.1232580468.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

The Sears/Peter Roberts story is not quite that simple, but it's a good one.
For a detailed look at the original suit (dating back to Robert's original but
rejected patent application in 1965) and the appeals and counter-suits through
1983, go here:
   http://www.projectposner.org/case/1983/723F2d1324
The award never came close to 105 million, though.

 - Lee


> Some years back a young tool salesman at Sears submitted a suggestion for a
> quick release ratchet, the home office told him they would check into it but
> did not have intentions of going very far with it, less than one year later
> "Craftsman" had a full nationwide sale on a totally new "quick release
> ratchet",  Sears made it a really big deal introduction, but' only gave the
> employee $5,000 bucks, he sued and came away with ==$105 million== , his
> claim, they lied to him about what he had and their plans for it..  "FT"
> _______________________________________________

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Wed Jan 21 18:42:24 2009
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:42:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak
References: <4973E415.6090507@snet.net> <4973E415.6090507@snet.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20090118205400.031e2608@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <0AA8B7877D5D43149C9BA4D1056B64BD@watsongxpejt9r>

My experience with using an oxy-acet is that I got enough heat - plenty of 
heat to make steam.  Of course I had faucets open so there wouldn't be 
pressurized steam in the line.  I think your problem is dirt.  I found that 
when I had to fix the water line that some else incorrectly soldered I 
heated it up to take it apart and the aggressively cleaned it with emery 
cloth.  I also used one of those wire brush pipe and fitting cleaning things 
to clean the inside of the fitting and the outside of the pipe.  Get it 
shiny bright!  Then the flux can do its work.  Flux CANNOT remove dirt or 
old solder.

And don't be fooled into thinking that if you get a good adhesion of solder 
around the outside shoulder between the fitting and the pipe that you're 
home free.  Solder has very little strength of its own - it relies on the 
adhesion between the small gap between the inside of the fitting and the 
outside of the pipe.

Whoever did the plumbing on my old house was somewhat of a bozo who believed 
that flux cured all, that cleaning off the flux after you're done is not 
necessary, that the bigger the blob the better the job.  However, whoever it 
was certainly gave me a bit of practice doing it the right way once I had to 
clean up all his mistakes.

Link to the type of brush I've got: 
http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Pasco-1-2-and-3-4-Copper-Fitting-and-Tube-Brush/7483/Cat/653?RefID=CJ
Pasco 5150

Enjoy but don't melt the copper with your oxy-acet torch - or set your home 
on fire for that matter!

Mark Watson
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Shipley" <shiples at comcast.net>
To: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>; "Shop Talk" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sweat joint leak


> >Like others have said, there is still water in the line that is
>>absorbing all the heat.
>
> I just went through this.
> First you use a propane torch and you can't get enough heat because of the
> water.
> Then use your acetylene torch and you can't get enough heat because of the
> water.
> And then you replace the fitting and you can't make a joint because now 
> you
> got the joint hot enough but there's enough water there to ruin your joint
> because the steam keeps the solder from flowing around the entire joint.
> And then you replace the fitting with another fitting but you make an 
> extra
> effort to get the water out of the line.
>
> Lesson learned: Joints need to be dry and clean
>
> Like a lot of shop procedures, it's easy when done right, and impossible
> when done wrong.
>
> I'd never used those pre-soldered fittings before and they work great.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Jan 23 07:29:15 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:29:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydronic system off a steam boiler?
Message-ID: <38D17FD2-FCC0-43D5-B30B-8460EE83FC16@groupwbench.org>

Thought I'd toss this out there in case any boiler people were  
lurking...

I have a steam system serving my first floor. It also provides  
domestic hot water by heating a SuperStor tank, feeding boiler water  
to the SuperStor coil.

I'm adding 3 hydronic zones to the house- a small laundry room in the  
basement, a 250 sf addition off the kitchen, and a 1000 sf 2nd story.  
I have the BTUs available in the boiler (31,000).

I'd like to supply the hydronic zones from a storage tank that was  
heated by the boiler much like the indirect DHW, but the indirects are  
really pricy. A 45 gallon SuperStor is about $900, an 80 gallon is  
$1800! (add in a 2nd coil for solar and it's $2700. Jeebus.). And  
since they are designed for high transfer rate of DHW, I think they're  
overkill. But I haven't found anything less intense.

Has anyone used a different storage tank for this application? Say, a  
burned out electric water heater? I could use the tankless coil  
included with the boiler to heat the storage tank; it's supposed to  
give me 4.5 gal/min of boiler-temp water, which will recharge BTUs in  
26 minutes with a 30 degree temp diff. A 60 gallon tank would require  
3 recharges per hour, about 10 mins each. (hope my math is right, it's  
stll early)

thanks,
jim

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Jan 23 23:10:05 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:10:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydronic system off a steam boiler?
In-Reply-To: <38D17FD2-FCC0-43D5-B30B-8460EE83FC16@groupwbench.org>
References: <38D17FD2-FCC0-43D5-B30B-8460EE83FC16@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <086EFE19974B48078247B171C3740DD9@HPPavilion>

My Dad and I rigged up an electric hot water tank, without wiring the
electric, to be used as a storage tank, to supplement an undersized oil
fired heater 30 years ago.  We had an electric pump circulate between the
furnace tank and the storage tank, whenever the burner fired.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 6:29 AM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydronic system off a steam boiler?

Thought I'd toss this out there in case any boiler people were lurking...

I have a steam system serving my first floor. It also provides domestic hot
water by heating a SuperStor tank, feeding boiler water to the SuperStor
coil.

I'm adding 3 hydronic zones to the house- a small laundry room in the
basement, a 250 sf addition off the kitchen, and a 1000 sf 2nd story.  
I have the BTUs available in the boiler (31,000).

I'd like to supply the hydronic zones from a storage tank that was heated by
the boiler much like the indirect DHW, but the indirects are really pricy. A
45 gallon SuperStor is about $900, an 80 gallon is $1800! (add in a 2nd coil
for solar and it's $2700. Jeebus.). And since they are designed for high
transfer rate of DHW, I think they're overkill. But I haven't found anything
less intense.

Has anyone used a different storage tank for this application? Say, a burned
out electric water heater? I could use the tankless coil included with the
boiler to heat the storage tank; it's supposed to give me 4.5 gal/min of
boiler-temp water, which will recharge BTUs in
26 minutes with a 30 degree temp diff. A 60 gallon tank would require
3 recharges per hour, about 10 mins each. (hope my math is right, it's stll
early)

thanks,
jim
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Jan 25 08:50:00 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:50:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
Message-ID: <1114BEA3-32D1-4F9C-A09A-C775351BAFEE@groupwbench.org>

My dishwasher has a 1/8" shaft on its main motor that drives the  
impeller. The impeller is on a plastic shaft that slides over the  
motor's shaft. There are, well, used to be splines to keep these two  
parts rotating at the same speed, but after 8 years of Extreme  
Dishwashing the plastic splines have worn out and squeals like a stuck  
pig (no pig in the DW, I checked).

In frigidaire's infinite bean counting wisdom they made it impossible  
to obtain just the wearable plastic shaft; I need to replace the whole  
motor. So I'm looking to epoxy the shafts together. Will A + B work?  
What if it's about 15 years old? Is there something better than A + B?  
It's a high torque application and I can only do this once.

thanks,
jim

From mbarre at juno.com  Sun Jan 25 09:07:11 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:07:11 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
Message-ID: <20090125.110711.13834.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Can you drill it and insert a pin?

-- Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
My dishwasher has a 1/8" shaft on its main motor that drives the
impeller. The impeller is on a plastic shaft that slides over the
motor's shaft. There are, well, used to be splines to keep these two
parts rotating at the same speed, but after 8 years of Extreme
Dishwashing the plastic splines have worn out and squeals like a stuck
pig (no pig in the DW, I checked).

In frigidaire's infinite bean counting wisdom they made it impossible
to obtain just the wearable plastic shaft; I need to replace the whole
motor. So I'm looking to epoxy the shafts together. Will A + B work?
What if it's about 15 years old? Is there something better than A + B?
It's a high torque application and I can only do this once.

thanks,
jim
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

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____________________________________________________________
Click to consolidate debt and lower month expenses.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2PBHPpArG18AsoHLQDPnRIBwhGR
WMSItVyR23vxIvZMp7PQ/

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 25 09:12:05 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:12:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <1114BEA3-32D1-4F9C-A09A-C775351BAFEE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <20090125161205.JKXC93.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

Jim,

I'm not familiar with "A + B".  I use "JB Weld" (the slow curing variety),
which seems to outperform everything else I've tried.  And IMO it would
probably not hold in your application unless you can find something stronger
to form the splines (like perhaps steel wire) and use the epoxy just to hold
it together.  Epoxy makes a strong bond between parts that fit snugly, but
has little strength of it's own.

Also, epoxy does have a limited shelf life.  For a one-shot deal, I wouldn't
bother even trying 15 year old epoxy (which I assume was your question).

Is there any way you could pin the plastic shaft to the motor shaft ?

Randall 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Jan 25 09:12:03 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:12:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
References: <1114BEA3-32D1-4F9C-A09A-C775351BAFEE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <92EEF03DAA0D4B1FB049FE33EAB8784D@ejrussell>

http://www.thistothat.com/

IME, slow setting epoxy is best. There are also expoxies touted as 
'plastic repair' but I don't know if that is marketing or not.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Franklin"


> I'm looking to epoxy the shafts together. Will A + B work?
> What if it's about 15 years old? Is there something better than A + 
> B?
> It's a high torque application and I can only do this once.

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Sun Jan 25 09:31:27 2009
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:31:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20090125.110711.13834.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20090125.110711.13834.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <497C93DF.209@snet.net>

I have never had long term success depending on epoxies of any kind 
holding in high torque, or even low torque, situations.

If there's room for this, I suggest a bushing that would encircle the 
impellers shaft where it goes over the motor shaft.  The metal bushing 
would be drilled and tapped for a couple of set screws that would reach 
down to the metal shaft.  Does that sound feasible?

I think it would be tough to drill and pin through the 1/8" shaft on the 
motor.

Matt wrote:
> Can you drill it and insert a pin?
>
> -- Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> My dishwasher has a 1/8" shaft on its main motor that drives the
> impeller. The impeller is on a plastic shaft that slides over the
> motor's shaft. There are, well, used to be splines to keep these two
> parts rotating at the same speed, but after 8 years of Extreme
> Dishwashing the plastic splines have worn out and squeals like a stuck
> pig (no pig in the DW, I checked).
>
> In frigidaire's infinite bean counting wisdom they made it impossible
> to obtain just the wearable plastic shaft; I need to replace the whole
> motor. So I'm looking to epoxy the shafts together. Will A + B work?
> What if it's about 15 years old? Is there something better than A + B?
> It's a high torque application and I can only do this once.
>
> thanks,
> jim
> You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ____________________________________________________________
> Click to consolidate debt and lower month expenses.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2PBHPpArG18AsoHLQDPnRIBwhGR
> WMSItVyR23vxIvZMp7PQ/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as james.f.juhas at snet.net
>
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>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Jan 25 10:57:42 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:57:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20090125161205.JKXC93.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20090125161205.JKXC93.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <D9E878A4-0892-4EF8-A1A1-5AD502DD3406@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 25, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Randall wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I'm not familiar with "A + B".  I use "JB Weld" (the slow curing  
> variety),
> which seems to outperform everything else I've tried.  And IMO it  
> would
> probably not hold in your application unless you can find something  
> stronger
> to form the splines (like perhaps steel wire) and use the epoxy just  
> to hold
> it together.  Epoxy makes a strong bond between parts that fit  
> snugly, but
> has little strength of it's own.


Thanks for all the responses. I definietly can't pin it unless I take  
it to a jeweler, and even then all the torque on 2% of the plastic  
would certainly crack the plastic.

www.thistothat.com is very cool! They also recommended JB Weld.

A+B is a putty, equal parts of each. Hand-moldable. Probably just a  
hardening plastic for making surface area.

The splines aren't very defined. There are about 6 depressions on the  
motor shaft, eyeball says about 0.2mm deep and the same wide, and soft- 
shouldered. Not enough to hold a set screw, or steel wire, or anything  
but a liquid that becomes a solid. The parts fit snugly enough that I  
can't make the two slip with my hands. But running the DW with water  
in it, it slips, and if I then apply pressure to the impeller, it  
slips more. So I think I will try JB Weld. If it doesn't work I can  
buy a machinist friend $150 of Scotch and he'll make one that'll  
outlast me :-)

jim

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Jan 25 11:13:42 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:13:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <D9E878A4-0892-4EF8-A1A1-5AD502DD3406@groupwbench.org>
References: <20090125161205.JKXC93.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<D9E878A4-0892-4EF8-A1A1-5AD502DD3406@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <497CABD6.7010103@hornesystemstx.com>

Jim,

Is there room to put something like a hose clamp around the area where 
the splines are missing? If so, cut a couple slots in the outside part, 
then find a clamp that fits the O.D. of the plastic part. Assemble and 
tighten the clamp. Hose clamps will probably not work because the screw 
part of the clamp will throw the balance off. There are crimp type 
clamps like what are used on CV joint boots that you may be able to find 
a small version of. If not, machine a split aluminum or stainless ring 
that will fit around the joint, cut a slot in it then drill & tap a hole 
across the split for a pinch bolt.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 1/25/2009 11:57 AM:
> On Jan 25, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Randall wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>> I'm not familiar with "A + B".  I use "JB Weld" (the slow curing 
>> variety),
>> which seems to outperform everything else I've tried.  And IMO it would
>> probably not hold in your application unless you can find something 
>> stronger
>> to form the splines (like perhaps steel wire) and use the epoxy just 
>> to hold
>> it together.  Epoxy makes a strong bond between parts that fit 
>> snugly, but
>> has little strength of it's own.
>
>
> Thanks for all the responses. I definietly can't pin it unless I take 
> it to a jeweler, and even then all the torque on 2% of the plastic 
> would certainly crack the plastic.
>
> www.thistothat.com is very cool! They also recommended JB Weld.
>
> A+B is a putty, equal parts of each. Hand-moldable. Probably just a 
> hardening plastic for making surface area.
>
> The splines aren't very defined. There are about 6 depressions on the 
> motor shaft, eyeball says about 0.2mm deep and the same wide, and 
> soft-shouldered. Not enough to hold a set screw, or steel wire, or 
> anything but a liquid that becomes a solid. The parts fit snugly 
> enough that I can't make the two slip with my hands. But running the 
> DW with water in it, it slips, and if I then apply pressure to the 
> impeller, it slips more. So I think I will try JB Weld. If it doesn't 
> work I can buy a machinist friend $150 of Scotch and he'll make one 
> that'll outlast me :-)
>
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
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>
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>
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-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Jan 25 11:44:46 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:44:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <497CABD6.7010103@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <20090125161205.JKXC93.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<D9E878A4-0892-4EF8-A1A1-5AD502DD3406@groupwbench.org>
	<497CABD6.7010103@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <EC8A6B70-03F2-47E3-AF52-7C04260D5D86@groupwbench.org>

There definitely isn't room radially for a hose clamp, and I don't  
think there's room axially for a split ring pinch bolt. The ribbed  
gasket sits right on the motor's nose, so everything on the shaft is  
on the wet side. The macerator is the first thing on the shaft, with  
about 1/16" plastic (the tub itself)  separating the ribbed gasket  
from it. I'll have a closer look when I epoxy it.

jim

On Jan 25, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Pat Horne wrote:

>
> Jim,
>
> Is there room to put something like a hose clamp around the area  
> where the splines are missing? If so, cut a couple slots in the  
> outside part, then find a clamp that fits the O.D. of the plastic  
> part. Assemble and tighten the clamp. Hose clamps will probably not  
> work because the screw part of the clamp will throw the balance off.  
> There are crimp type clamps like what are used on CV joint boots  
> that you may be able to find a small version of. If not, machine a  
> split aluminum or stainless ring that will fit around the joint, cut  
> a slot in it then drill & tap a hole across the split for a pinch  
> bolt.
>
> Peace,
> Pat

From mbarre at juno.com  Sun Jan 25 12:43:28 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 19:43:28 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
Message-ID: <20090125.144328.28074.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Agree, drilling the shaft is easier said than done, but how about cutting a
thin keyway with a cutoff wheel on a dremel?  Just something to take the shear
force.  Maybe that would spread it out enough so it wouldn't destroy the
plastic.  could probably cut a corresponding slot in the plastic with a
hacksaw blade.  Then epoxy.

-- Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
On Jan 25, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Randall wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I'm not familiar with "A + B".  I use "JB Weld" (the slow curing
> variety),
> which seems to outperform everything else I've tried.  And IMO it
> would
> probably not hold in your application unless you can find something
> stronger
> to form the splines (like perhaps steel wire) and use the epoxy just
> to hold
> it together.  Epoxy makes a strong bond between parts that fit
> snugly, but
> has little strength of it's own.


Thanks for all the responses. I definietly can't pin it unless I take
it to a jeweler, and even then all the torque on 2% of the plastic
would certainly crack the plastic.

www.thistothat.com is very cool! They also recommended JB Weld.

A+B is a putty, equal parts of each. Hand-moldable. Probably just a
hardening plastic for making surface area.

The splines aren't very defined. There are about 6 depressions on the
motor shaft, eyeball says about 0.2mm deep and the same wide, and soft-
shouldered. Not enough to hold a set screw, or steel wire, or anything
but a liquid that becomes a solid. The parts fit snugly enough that I
can't make the two slip with my hands. But running the DW with water
in it, it slips, and if I then apply pressure to the impeller, it
slips more. So I think I will try JB Weld. If it doesn't work I can
buy a machinist friend $150 of Scotch and he'll make one that'll
outlast me :-)

jim
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive
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From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jan 25 13:04:44 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:04:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <1114BEA3-32D1-4F9C-A09A-C775351BAFEE@groupwbench.org>
References: <1114BEA3-32D1-4F9C-A09A-C775351BAFEE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090125145428.01c60290@cox.net>

At 10:50 AM 1/25/2009, Jim Franklin wrote:

 >My dishwasher has a 1/8" shaft on its main motor that drives 
the  impeller. The
 >impeller is on a plastic shaft that slides over the  motor's shaft. 
There are, well,
 >used to be splines to keep these two  parts rotating at the same speed, but
 >after 8 years of Extreme Dishwashing the plastic splines have worn out and
 >squeals like a stuck  pig (no pig in the DW, I checked).

Jim,

While this isn't an answer to your question, your dishwasher is 8 yrs old and
broke.  Fom my experience, they aren't worth the trouble to try and fix.  The
dishwash that was in the house when we bought had a seal go, and water got
into the motor.  So I was going to replace just the motor.  But I ran into
problems that the impeller was not designed to be removed from the shaft.
After I got it out, and spent quite a bit of time trying to get the 
impeller off the
shaft, I ended up breaking the impeller.  When I went to get the new motor the
motor was something like $125 and came with all the parts.  Just drop 
it in, so
to speak.  That lasted another 6 to 8 yrs, with some other minor repairs.  When
it failed the 2nd time, I went looking for a new dishwasher.  I got a 
new one for
around $200 to $250.  Now granted that was about about 10 yrs ago.  (I guess I
better be thinking about being ready to get a one.)

Looking at Best Buy, they have some for $300 to $500.  Unless you really have
some extreamely expensive unit, I'd say don't worry about it, just go buy a new
one.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

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If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Jan 25 13:13:55 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
Message-ID: <200901252013.n0PKDtJs006647@moose.dimebank.com>

I'll echo what John said, to a point. It depends entirely on what
the part costs vs how much of a nuisance it is to replace.

At our vacation place, we have a Kenmore that must be 30 years old,
maybe older (it was harvest gold, along with all the other appliances,
until I found the white panel). It started washing poorly; I figured
out that it wasn't filling well. Replacing the valve was a small nuisance,
cheap, and solved the problem. We run that dishwasher about once every
three weeks, so not investing in a new one is the right answer for now.

At home, we had a newer one that started washing poorly, especially
the upper rack. I investigated and found that some of the seals that 
cause the water to jet to the top had hardened and split. They were
sort of easy to fix, so I did. 

Helped, but not enough. Overall internal pressure was still low. I
could have pulled the pump to replace some parts ... and then it
might still not have been enough, so I might have had to do it again...

We bought a new one. That was the right answer.

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Sun Jan 25 14:45:25 2009
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:45:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] epoxy
Message-ID: <7AD719D46BD44D34B2C622D25F0C7ABE@fred8kwiskhcfu>

"If You Take Care of Your Car, It Will Take Care of You, ==EPOXY== a part
under the hood/bonnet, you must be kidding, hope you make it all the way
across the desert or maybe even home again, do it right the first time, it
will be so much cheaper down the road  "FT"

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Jan 25 20:00:12 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:00:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
Message-ID: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>

I finally had a chance to use my MIG (Hobart 140) with CO2/Argon shielding
gas.  My initial welds were pretty poor, but I got better as I went along and
the lessons from my welding class came back to me.  However, I have two
questions about using it with the shielding gas.  First, I was surprised that
the instructions didn't call for any thread sealer on the gas connections, nor
for any testing for leaks (e.g., soapy water).  Is this correct?  Don't I need
to worry about this?

My second question is pretty simple:  When I am through for the night, is it
necessary to purge the line after shutting off the gas cylinder? Or can I just
leave it alone and let it leak out slowly over time?

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail. goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone.
http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT
_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Jan 25 20:13:24 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:13:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1C1DA910C1DB468FB8ECB2140068FFBD@ejrussell>

I wouldn't worry about soaping connections. It'll leak out plenty from
the nozzle thus the hoses/connections won't be under any real
pressure.

I just close the valve on the top of the cylinder when I'm done
welding. These are inert gasses so I've never worried about leaving
any trace in the unit or its hoses.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stone"

> I was surprised that the instructions didn't call for any thread 
> sealer on the gas connections, nor for any testing for leaks (e.g., 
> soapy water).
>
> My second question is pretty simple:  When I am through for the 
> night, is it necessary to purge the line after shutting off the gas 
> cylinder? Or can I just leave it alone and let it leak out slowly 
> over time?

From arvidj at visi.com  Sun Jan 25 22:04:26 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:04:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>

I have never worried about getting a perfect seal on any of the fittings as 
I did not think there was much pressure in the line. After all there is this 
big hole at the end of the gun so ...

I have always just shut the cylinder valve when I was done and let it go at 
that. I've been more worried about what might leak INTO the lines after I 
shut it off and left it sit until the next weekend than what the gas that 
was suppose to be in there did to the plumbing while it was sitting. That is 
why I usually turn the wire speed down as low as it will go and pull the 
trigger a few times if it has set unused for a few days. This allows the 
preflow to purge the air or what ever might have gotten in there while it 
was sitting unused out and I am sure to get good shielding gas right at the 
start.

Arvid

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:00 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions


>I finally had a chance to use my MIG (Hobart 140) with CO2/Argon shielding
> gas.  My initial welds were pretty poor, but I got better as I went along 
> and
> the lessons from my welding class came back to me.  However, I have two
> questions about using it with the shielding gas.  First, I was surprised 
> thate
> the instructions didn't call for any thread sealer on the gas connections, 
> nor
> for any testing for leaks (e.g., soapy water).  Is this correct?  Don't I 
> need
> to worry about this?
>
> My second question is pretty simple:  When I am through for the night, is 
> it
> necessary to purge the line after shutting off the gas cylinder? Or can I 
> just
> leave it alone and let it leak out slowly over time?
>
> Thanks.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Jan 26 06:11:45 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:11:45 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
	<0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <COL110-W72820E193927C2C8F8589BCCCA0@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  One less thing in my life to worry about.


> From: arvidj at visi.com
> To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:04:26 -0600
>
> I have never worried about getting a perfect seal on any of the fittings as
> I did not think there was much pressure in the line. After all there is this
> big hole at the end of the gun so ...
>
> I have always just shut the cylinder valve when I was done and let it go at
> that. I've been more worried about what might leak INTO the lines after I
> shut it off and left it sit until the next weekend than what the gas that
> was suppose to be in there did to the plumbing while it was sitting. That is
> why I usually turn the wire speed down as low as it will go and pull the
> trigger a few times if it has set unused for a few days. This allows the
> preflow to purge the air or what ever might have gotten in there while it
> was sitting unused out and I am sure to get good shielding gas right at the
> start.
>
> Arvid
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:00 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
>
>
> >I finally had a chance to use my MIG (Hobart 140) with CO2/Argon shielding
> > gas.  My initial welds were pretty poor, but I got better as I went along
> > and
> > the lessons from my welding class came back to me.  However, I have two
> > questions about using it with the shielding gas.  First, I was surprised
> > thate
> > the instructions didn't call for any thread sealer on the gas connections,
> > nor
> > for any testing for leaks (e.g., soapy water).  Is this correct?  Don't I
> > need
> > to worry about this?
> >
> > My second question is pretty simple:  When I am through for the night, is
> > it
> > necessary to purge the line after shutting off the gas cylinder? Or can I
> > just
> > leave it alone and let it leak out slowly over time?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail.more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howit
works_012009

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Jan 26 06:19:26 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:19:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W72820E193927C2C8F8589BCCCA0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl><0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
	<COL110-W72820E193927C2C8F8589BCCCA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BDB641224EDD4980A90FE921A05B518E@OwnerPC>

just remember to TURN OFF THE GAS when you're thru welding... you can lose a 
lot of $$$ gas over a week or so...  ask me how I know :-)

j


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions


> Thanks guys.  One less thing in my life to worry about.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jan 26 11:04:03 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:04:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <35640.7653.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The gas is not flammable, so a small leak is pretty much irrelevant, unless you leave everything turned on for hours at a time.

On mine, I never purge after closing the main valve.  Why bother?  The pressure is only a few pounds.


One thing I do before welding is unclamp the wire feed and press the trigger for a few seconds, to make sure that the main hose gets all the air purged from it.  You can double check that you are getting gas by sniffing the nozzle:  The CO2 should make it smell like soda water.


Doug


--- On Sun, 1/25/09, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 10:00 PM
> I finally had a chance to use my MIG (Hobart 140) with
> CO2/Argon shielding
> gas.  My initial welds were pretty poor, but I got better
> as I went along and
> the lessons from my welding class came back to me. 
> However, I have two
> questions about using it with the shielding gas.  First, I
> was surprised that
> the instructions didn't call for any thread sealer on
> the gas connections, nor
> for any testing for leaks (e.g., soapy water).  Is this
> correct?  Don't I need
> to worry about this?
> 
> My second question is pretty simple:  When I am through for
> the night, is it
> necessary to purge the line after shutting off the gas
> cylinder? Or can I just
> leave it alone and let it leak out slowly over time?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail. goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your
> phone.
> http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT
> _TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Jan 26 12:59:06 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:59:06 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
References: <35640.7653.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7DA70639FAB94B0CB078186359041BB0@behavioral.com>

What does argon smell like? The mix I use for spray transfer is 90% argon, 
8% CO2, 2% O2 and the TIG bottle is 100% argon. To be honest I have not 
tried the sniff test because I was not to keen on breathing that much argon.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
To: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
Cc: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions


> One thing I do before welding is unclamp the wire feed and press the 
> trigger for a few seconds, to make sure that the main hose gets all the 
> air purged from it.  You can double check that you are getting gas by 
> sniffing the nozzle:  The CO2 should make it smell like soda water.
>
>
> Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jan 26 13:03:39 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:03:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <7DA70639FAB94B0CB078186359041BB0@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <71524.96440.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well, I did say "sniff", not "take a deep breath with the nozzle stuck in your mouth"...

I believe argon is odorless and tasteless.  it is inert, like helium. CO2 is quite different, as you can tell from sniffing (or burping) gas from carbonated beverages.

Doug

--- On Mon, 1/26/09, Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com> wrote:

> From: Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> To: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>, "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> Cc: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 2:59 PM
> What does argon smell like? The mix I use for spray transfer
> is 90% argon, 8% CO2, 2% O2 and the TIG bottle is 100%
> argon. To be honest I have not tried the sniff test because
> I was not to keen on breathing that much argon.

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Jan 26 13:45:41 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:45:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <71524.96440.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05B97974E52040308784E681163A8CF4@DADSTOY>

Sniff too much argon and a static spark might make you light up like a neon
sign.....;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Doug Braun
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:04 PM
To: Jim Stone; Arvid Jedlicka
Cc: Shop-Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions


Well, I did say "sniff", not "take a deep breath with the nozzle stuck in
your mouth"...

I believe argon is odorless and tasteless.  it is inert, like helium. CO2 is
quite different, as you can tell from sniffing (or burping) gas from
carbonated beverages.

Doug

--- On Mon, 1/26/09, Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com> wrote:

> From: Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> To: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>, "Jim Stone"
> <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> Cc: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 2:59 PM
> What does argon smell like? The mix I use for spray transfer
> is 90% argon, 8% CO2, 2% O2 and the TIG bottle is 100%
> argon. To be honest I have not tried the sniff test because
> I was not to keen on breathing that much argon.
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan 26 14:24:57 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:24:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <7DA70639FAB94B0CB078186359041BB0@behavioral.com>
References: <35640.7653.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7DA70639FAB94B0CB078186359041BB0@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <08db01c97ffc$8a826fa0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> What does argon smell like? 

In theory it's odorless.  In practice, it seems to smell a lot like air that
has been stored in a rusty, dirty old tank.

Although you wouldn't want to breathe it continuously, even a big lungful of
pure argon isn't going to hurt you, any more than holding your breath for a
second or two will.  Ordinary air has more argon than CO2.

Randall

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan 26 17:38:56 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:38:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20090125145428.01c60290@cox.net>
References: <1114BEA3-32D1-4F9C-A09A-C775351BAFEE@groupwbench.org>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20090125145428.01c60290@cox.net>
Message-ID: <D0B9BE48-73A5-4623-A788-4F113834D683@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 25, 2009, at 3:04 PM, John T. Blair wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> While this isn't an answer to your question, your dishwasher is 8  
> yrs old and
> broke.  Fom my experience, they aren't worth the trouble to try and  
> fix.

I disagreed, so I went ahead and JB Welded it. The good news is the  
epoxy held, even though it squeezed out of a previously invisible  
hairline fracture in the plastic shaft that was clearly the problem.  
Bad news is there were two shouldered rubber gaskets with plastic  
washers inside them fixed (or so I thought) on the shaft. Once I  
cleaned the shaft there was no more grease to hold them on the shaft  
and they escaped. I have no idea how they were oriented on the shaft  
and the online parts manual shows a different (updated?) sealing  
mechanism.

So I need to buy a new motor anyway because no matter how I orient the  
seals, it leaks. Bah.

jim

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jan 26 17:52:41 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:52:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <D0B9BE48-73A5-4623-A788-4F113834D683@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <708200.33265.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Keep this in mind when trying to maintain older dishwashers:  The cost of
dealing with the results of a water leak can greatly exceed the price of a new dishwasher.  

The year before last, our mediocre GE dishwasher decided to spew a couple of hundred gallons of water down into our finished basement.  After replacing the flooring and ceiling, we bought a fancy high-end dishwasher that has a drip pan and leak detector circuit that shuts off the water if leakage is detected.  In addition, whenever the dishwasher is not actually filling, a solenoid valve at the far end of the hose (where it is connected to the plumbing) is closed, preventing the risk of flooding from a failed hose.

Doug


--- On Mon, 1/26/09, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

> From: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 7:38 PM
> On Jan 25, 2009, at 3:04 PM, John T. Blair wrote:
> > 
> > Jim,
> > 
> > While this isn't an answer to your question, your
> dishwasher is 8 yrs old and
> > broke.  Fom my experience, they aren't worth the
> trouble to try and fix.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Jan 26 19:05:35 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:05:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <BDB641224EDD4980A90FE921A05B518E@OwnerPC>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl><0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
	<COL110-W72820E193927C2C8F8589BCCCA0@phx.gbl>
	<BDB641224EDD4980A90FE921A05B518E@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <COL110-W768477BAEE95514F20C5A7CCCB0@phx.gbl>

I can almost absolutely guarantee that I will soon learn the same lesson!

> From: jniolon at bham.rr.com
> To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:19:26 -0600
>
> just remember to TURN OFF THE GAS when you're thru welding... you can lose a
> lot of $$$ gas over a week or so...  ask me how I know :-)
>
> j
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
>
>
> > Thanks guys.  One less thing in my life to worry about.
> >
>

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail.:more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_
012009

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Jan 26 20:19:41 2009
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:19:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Epoxy recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <708200.33265.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <D0B9BE48-73A5-4623-A788-4F113834D683@groupwbench.org>
	<708200.33265.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006201c9802e$18f37870$4ada6950$@mele@usermail.com>

I have a similar add-on gadget on the washing machine (clothes) for the same
reason
I made a drip pan out of galv sheet metal to put under the washer.

PM

============
Keep this in mind when trying to maintain older dishwashers:  The cost of
dealing with the results of a water leak can greatly exceed the price of a
new dishwasher.  

The year before last, our mediocre GE dishwasher decided to spew a couple of
hundred gallons of water down into our finished basement.  After replacing
the flooring and ceiling, we bought a fancy high-end dishwasher that has a
drip pan and leak detector circuit that shuts off the water if leakage is
detected.  In addition, whenever the dishwasher is not actually filling, a
solenoid valve at the far end of the hose (where it is connected to the
plumbing) is closed, preventing the risk of flooding from a failed hose.

Doug
===============

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Jan 27 20:09:38 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:09:38 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish
Message-ID: <36921BAA128D47BA94341A12DBFA2FE2@niolon>

having a new roof put on house... sat dish is on roof... roofers will remove 
dish and install roof... I wanted to get dish network people to re aim dish.

called and they wanted 100 buck service call and earliest they can come is 
2/6/9... unacceptable

how hard is it to aim a sat dish ???  I have the az/ele/sk numbers but 
whatzat  mean ???

thanks
John



"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much 
government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering) 

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Jan 27 20:19:38 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:19:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish
In-Reply-To: <36921BAA128D47BA94341A12DBFA2FE2@niolon>
References: <36921BAA128D47BA94341A12DBFA2FE2@niolon>
Message-ID: <4EA9E8C5-C5F8-4416-9A27-9B84466786E0@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 27, 2009, at 10:09 PM, john niolon wrote:

> having a new roof put on house... sat dish is on roof... roofers  
> will remove
> dish and install roof... I wanted to get dish network people to re  
> aim dish.
>
> called and they wanted 100 buck service call and earliest they can  
> come is
> 2/6/9... unacceptable
>
> how hard is it to aim a sat dish ???  I have the az/ele/sk numbers but
> whatzat  mean ???
>


el = elevation off the horizon- my Sony had a degree scale and needle  
on the dish and mounting arm
az = azimuth - compass direction in degrees from north. North is zero,  
they increase to the east
sk - no idea

It's a pain in the butt to get it close. I'd want more than $100.

I have a coax in-line LED "signal seeker" that flashes more quickly  
the stronger the signal gets. Used to fine-tune after you get close.  
Indispensable in my opinion. I also have a manual for how to align the  
dish. Yours for postage if you'd like.

jim

From tvacc at lotusowners.com  Tue Jan 27 20:28:59 2009
From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:28:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish
In-Reply-To: <05AD7736E8C8458CA8F255A0A9288758@amicroinc.local>
References: <36921BAA128D47BA94341A12DBFA2FE2@niolon>
	<05AD7736E8C8458CA8F255A0A9288758@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <21777234F04A4B5E832BA6CF25DE502F@amicroinc.local>

I aimed mine in 5min. There was a aiming screen on my dish. When it was
good...the bar went full green.

I think it is easier than people think

Tony Vaccaro

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Franklin
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:25 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish

On Jan 27, 2009, at 10:09 PM, john niolon wrote:

> having a new roof put on house... sat dish is on roof... roofers  
> will remove
> dish and install roof... I wanted to get dish network people to re  
> aim dish.
>
> called and they wanted 100 buck service call and earliest they can  
> come is
> 2/6/9... unacceptable
>
> how hard is it to aim a sat dish ???  I have the az/ele/sk numbers but
> whatzat  mean ???
>


el = elevation off the horizon- my Sony had a degree scale and needle  
on the dish and mounting arm
az = azimuth - compass direction in degrees from north. North is zero,  
they increase to the east
sk - no idea

It's a pain in the butt to get it close. I'd want more than $100.

I have a coax in-line LED "signal seeker" that flashes more quickly  
the stronger the signal gets. Used to fine-tune after you get close.  
Indispensable in my opinion. I also have a manual for how to align the  
dish. Yours for postage if you'd like.

jim
You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive



 

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From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jan 27 21:45:31 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:45:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish
In-Reply-To: <4EA9E8C5-C5F8-4416-9A27-9B84466786E0@groupwbench.org>
References: <36921BAA128D47BA94341A12DBFA2FE2@niolon>
	<4EA9E8C5-C5F8-4416-9A27-9B84466786E0@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <0KE500GWIZVZ7GK0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

SK = skew angle.  Check here:

http://www.ehow.com/about_4699991_what-dish-skew.html

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jan 27 21:40:26 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:40:26 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish
In-Reply-To: <4EA9E8C5-C5F8-4416-9A27-9B84466786E0@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <OFF8CF80CD.5DFADA90-ON4325754C.001A6089-4325754C.001A9420@mail.megageek.com>

I would call them back and tell them to come to the house and remove the 
equipment, Direct TV will come install their stuff for free.  (provided 
you dishnetwork.  If not, say dishnetwork will install for free.)

Or tell them that you are using this issue to get cable tv. 

They will quickly change their tune if they think you are dropping their 
service.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From shiples at comcast.net  Tue Jan 27 22:40:10 2009
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:40:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish
In-Reply-To: <36921BAA128D47BA94341A12DBFA2FE2@niolon>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090127205834.03207fe0@mail.comcast.net>

At 09:09 PM 1/27/2009 -0600, john niolon wrote:
>having a new roof put on house... sat dish is on roof... roofers will remove
>dish and install roof... I wanted to get dish network people to re aim dish.
>
>called and they wanted 100 buck service call and earliest they can come is
>2/6/9... unacceptable
>
>how hard is it to aim a sat dish ???  I have the az/ele/sk numbers but
>whatzat  mean ???
>
>thanks
>John

I bought a signal strength meter but if I recall, my box had some
sort of utility that did the same thing.  The problem is that until you
have the dish pointed in the right direction, there's no signal.

I'd look at the setup function on your box and see if the signal strength 
function
is available.  Since your existing installation is already aimed, you 
should be able to
take approximate measurements with improvised tools(Compass, Level).
Move the dish a bit to see how it affects the signal strength.  A little
experimentation will show you how challenging it is.

You reinstall the dish, aiming it with the data you gathered before the
roofers removed the dish.  You then complete the aiming with signal strength.

It's pretty easy to do, and you have an advantage since you're working with
an existing installation.  In my case, I should have paid for the installation.
I spent several days trying to find the initial orientation of the dish.  I'm
sure the local installers can get it close by eyeballing it.

Reminds me of repairing copper water lines.  Easy if you know how.

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 07:34:55 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:34:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish
References: <36921BAA128D47BA94341A12DBFA2FE2@niolon>
Message-ID: <758846.1336.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Aiming is extremely easy to do. Every sat box out there has a 
utility that
will tell you the signal strength and all the numbers
needed for your zip
code. (ie-skew, azimuth, elevation). The 
hardest part of the whole process is
getting the mount squared
and climbing on the roof. The mount must be
perfectly vertical 
otherwise you're going to spend a few minutes pulling your
hair 
out. Since your dish was already installed, it will be rather close
already. If you know when the roofers are coming, remove the 
dish yourself.
There are usually two cables going to each LNB. 
You will want to label them
as it makes a difference if the installers 
used a switch to distribute the
signals to your boxes. The customer 
service people make it seem like it is
rocket science. It is far from it. 
When I first got my dish, it was up and
running within 10 minutes. I 
attached it to my wooden fence and got it aimed,
then had the 
cable running through the window. The setup utility built into
the
box and it generates a tone depending on the signal strength.
I was able
to hear it outside with the tv volume on high. 

The information provided
about cancelling is also excellent. 
If you've been a customer at least 5
years, the 'cancellation' 
department will jump through hoops to keep you.
I've found 
that the agents will sometimes conveniently forget to do stuff
and lock you into another year and the credits somehow go 
missing. Complain
loudly however and they magically reappear.
Ebay has the signal strength
meters for around $10 shipped. 
They are simple tone generators and are
extremely sensitive. 
I've aligned the dish to a 100 percent signal without
the meter.
The closer you are to 100, the better you're able to keep the
tv
going during rain storms. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


----- Original Message
----
From: john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
To: shop-talk
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:09:38 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] re aligning dish network dish

having a new roof put on
house... sat dish is on roof... roofers will remove 
dish and install roof...
I wanted to get dish network people to re aim dish.

called and they wanted
100 buck service call and earliest they can come is 
2/6/9... unacceptable
how hard is it to aim a sat dish ???  I have the az/ele/sk numbers but
whatzat  mean ???

thanks
John

(snip)

From nogera2 at att.net  Sat Jan 31 11:05:31 2009
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:05:31 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
Message-ID: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>

I was just reading a newsletter sent out by a local car radio show host (who
pimps for some local dealers). In discussing Diesel engines in cars he lists
one of the advantages as the fact the engine will last up to 500,000 miles.
I remember reading some time ago that the legendary long life of Diesel
engines was not the fuel type but rather that truck manufactures built
Diesel engines to very high tolerances and designed the basic engine, at
much higher cost, for long life given the high mileage and type of use it
will receive. That diesels used in automobiles are built to the same
standards as regular engines and should last only as long as a normal
gasoline engine.

Given the conflicting information I now turn to the source I know I can
trust,  are the diesel engines used in cars as long lived as the
tractor-trailer engines?  ( Of course lets discount the diesels GM made for
car use in the 1980s, we know they were all bad).

Bob

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Sat Jan 31 11:15:30 2009
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 13:15:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
In-Reply-To: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>
References: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <bdde53220901311015k6ea88271v4e3670b99c43a524@mail.gmail.com>

I have a 2000 VW Jetta TDI.  It's gotten basically nothing but 10k
mile oil changes and a couple of timing belts in its 247,000+ miles
(I've owned it since just under 92k).  The only engine related repairs
I've had to make in that time were to replace the MAF, the glowplug
harness, and the starter.  The car still runs great and I expect the
motor to outlast the body of the car.  Not bad for a car that has
averaged about 50 MPG for the 155,000+ miles I've owned it.  Probably
the best car purchase I've ever made.  It's our second.  We had an '01
for a month or two before my wife totaled it.  This replaced it.

We recently bought a 2009 TDI Jetta.  We're approaching 10k miles on
it now and it averages around 40 MPG.  Not nearly as good as the 2000,
but it's a much larger and heavier car and it's got way more power
(140 HP 240 lb.-ft. of torque vs. the 90 HP in the 2000 TDI).  It's
also a much cleaner engine.  I'm really happy with it so far.  I'm
considering replacing the 2000 with a 2009 TDI Sportwagen next fall or
so.  That is if Subaru doesn't bring the Legacy with a diesel motor.
If they do, I think I'll buy one of those.

-Paul

On 1/31/09, nogera2 at att.net <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:
> I was just reading a newsletter sent out by a local car radio show host (who
>  pimps for some local dealers). In discussing Diesel engines in cars he lists
>  one of the advantages as the fact the engine will last up to 500,000 miles.
>  I remember reading some time ago that the legendary long life of Diesel
>  engines was not the fuel type but rather that truck manufactures built
>  Diesel engines to very high tolerances and designed the basic engine, at
>  much higher cost, for long life given the high mileage and type of use it
>  will receive. That diesels used in automobiles are built to the same
>  standards as regular engines and should last only as long as a normal
>  gasoline engine.
>
>  Given the conflicting information I now turn to the source I know I can
>  trust,  are the diesel engines used in cars as long lived as the
>  tractor-trailer engines?  ( Of course lets discount the diesels GM made for
>  car use in the 1980s, we know they were all bad).
>
>  Bob
>  _______________________________________________
>  Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>  You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
>  Shop-talk mailing list
>
>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>  http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Jan 31 11:25:45 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 21:25:45 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220901311015k6ea88271v4e3670b99c43a524@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF9A0E0330.B456AEE6-ON4325754F.0065CABE-4325754F.00661F79@mail.megageek.com>

I loved my '89 Mercedes 190D.  It was a luxury car that got 40mpg!  I sold 
it with over 300,000miles on the clock and as far as I know, it's still a 
daily commuter. In fact, that body and everything about that car was 
great.  I shouldn't have sold it, but I already had 5 cars and 2 
motorcycles.  For a single guy, that is too many vehicles!  (as if that is 
possible.) 

I HATE the fact that the American consumer thinks a car needs to throw 
their head back to be good.  That 190D was a great car and we should all 
be driving diesels today!  The Europeans have figured that one out long 
ago!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
01/31/2009 09:04 PM

To
"nogera2 at att.net" <nogera2 at att.net>, Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines






I have a 2000 VW Jetta TDI.  It's gotten basically nothing but 10k
mile oil changes and a couple of timing belts in its 247,000+ miles
(I've owned it since just under 92k).  The only engine related repairs
I've had to make in that time were to replace the MAF, the glowplug
harness, and the starter.  The car still runs great and I expect the
motor to outlast the body of the car.  Not bad for a car that has
averaged about 50 MPG for the 155,000+ miles I've owned it.  Probably
the best car purchase I've ever made.  It's our second.  We had an '01
for a month or two before my wife totaled it.  This replaced it.

We recently bought a 2009 TDI Jetta.  We're approaching 10k miles on
it now and it averages around 40 MPG.  Not nearly as good as the 2000,
but it's a much larger and heavier car and it's got way more power
(140 HP 240 lb.-ft. of torque vs. the 90 HP in the 2000 TDI).  It's
also a much cleaner engine.  I'm really happy with it so far.  I'm
considering replacing the 2000 with a 2009 TDI Sportwagen next fall or
so.  That is if Subaru doesn't bring the Legacy with a diesel motor.
If they do, I think I'll buy one of those.

-Paul

On 1/31/09, nogera2 at att.net <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:
> I was just reading a newsletter sent out by a local car radio show host 
(who
>  pimps for some local dealers). In discussing Diesel engines in cars he 
lists
>  one of the advantages as the fact the engine will last up to 500,000 
miles.
>  I remember reading some time ago that the legendary long life of Diesel
>  engines was not the fuel type but rather that truck manufactures built
>  Diesel engines to very high tolerances and designed the basic engine, 
at
>  much higher cost, for long life given the high mileage and type of use 
it
>  will receive. That diesels used in automobiles are built to the same
>  standards as regular engines and should last only as long as a normal
>  gasoline engine.
>
>  Given the conflicting information I now turn to the source I know I can
>  trust,  are the diesel engines used in cars as long lived as the
>  tractor-trailer engines?  ( Of course lets discount the diesels GM made 
for
>  car use in the 1980s, we know they were all bad).
>
>  Bob
>  _______________________________________________
>  Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>  You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
>  Shop-talk mailing list
>
>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>  http://www.team.net/archive
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From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 31 12:23:44 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:23:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
In-Reply-To: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <20090131192344.BIHW22988.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I remember reading some time ago that the legendary long life 
> of Diesel engines was not the fuel type but rather that truck 
> manufactures built Diesel engines to very high tolerances and 
> designed the basic engine, at much higher cost, for long life 
> given the high mileage and type of use it will receive.

I guess the factors I see would fall under that category as well.  Big truck
motors have a miniscule power output for their weight, bigger bearings,
better filtration, etc.

But I do believe that the lubricity of diesel fuel compared to gasoline
plays a part too.

> are the diesel engines used in cars as 
> long lived as the tractor-trailer engines? 

Evidence I've seen is that they are somewhere in-between.  Of course it's
hard to compare apples to apples, as modern car engines seem to last far
longer than those of a few decades ago.  And the way they are used plays a
big role, too.  If you measure lifetime in number of starts (for example) or
better yet, number of revolutions, rather than miles driven, I suspect the
gap becomes much smaller.

Randall - probably 10,000 starts on a Chevy 350

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Jan 31 14:42:14 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:42:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
In-Reply-To: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>
References: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090131162828.01c654e8@cox.net>

At 01:05 PM 1/31/2009, nogera2 at att.net wrote:

 >...In discussing Diesel engines in cars he lists one of the 
advantages as the
 >fact the engine will last up to 500,000 miles.  I remember reading some time
 >ago that the legendary long life of Diesel engines was not the fuel type but
 >rather that truck manufactures built Diesel engines to very high 
tolerances....

Bob, et al.

I think Randall may have it it, "Evidence I've seen is that they are 
somewhere in-between. "

Most of the big commercial diesels are built to a higher standard, stronger,
and designed to last.  There's not too much competition among earth movers,
craines, bull dozers, etc. as compaired to the passenger car market.  And when
you'll looking at spending well over $100K you expect it to last.

But if the diesels engines become popular in modern cars, and there is the
continued competition, I think the diesels engines will be economized down.
Will they still get 1/2 a million miles?  Don't know.

Again, Randall said: "as modern car engines seem to last far longer than those
of a few decades ago."

I remember when an engine had 85-100K on it, it was time for a rebuild.  But
my 84 Accord had 190K when I sold it 2 yrs ago and was still running strong.
My 89 Voyager (3L Mit. eng.) had 193K on it when my kids decided to take it
from the East to West coast and back.  It has 211K on it when we donated it
to charity.  My 95 Voyager (3L Mit. eng.) has 208K on it and we still drive it
every day.  And my 95 Tautus (3L V6) has just about 200K on it.  So the gas
engines are holding up quite well.

The big thing the diesels have going for them, is the better gas milage.

Moose said, "I HATE the fact that the American consumer thinks a car needs
to throw their head back to be good."

Yea, but just look at the Audi R-8 (is it?) race car that has been burning up
the track and winning everything in sight - it's a diesel.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

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From dreinsch at swbell.net  Sat Jan 31 16:22:48 2009
From: dreinsch at swbell.net (Dwade Reinsch)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:22:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
In-Reply-To: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <786184.31635.qm@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Sat, 1/31/09, nogera2 at att.net <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:

tractor-trailer engines?  ( Of course lets discount the diesels GM made for
car use in the 1980s, we know they were all bad).

Bob
My memory of the 80's "diesel" engines that GM put into carswas that they were
gasoline blocks with "diesel" heads put on topto up the compression enough to
burn diesel oil.  Yes, they were bad.Dwade 

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Jan 31 17:04:04 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 00:04:04 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
Message-ID: <20090131.190404.20261.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

I'll second Paul's praise of the Jetta.  I also have a 2000 and my entire
family loves it.  The TDI owners rival the British car folks for participatory
support - there are several active net based clubs.  The MAF & glow plug
harness are well documented weak spots.  I also have a 91 ecco diesel Jetta,
not as refined as the 200 but still ependable & economical.  But when time
comes for heavy hauling the VWs give way to the mighty Dually Dodge powered by
Cummins.
I also appreciate the fact that diesel is a more stable and safer fuel to
store.  They can also burn a wide variety of fuel.  I talked with a fellow
that claimed to have run his Jetta on baby oil for over a year while working
for Johnson & Johnson!
Matt in GA

-- Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a 2000 VW Jetta TDI.  It's gotten basically nothing but 10k
mile oil changes and a couple of timing belts in its 247,000+ miles
(I've owned it since just under 92k).  The only engine related repairs
I've had to make in that time were to replace the MAF, the glowplug
harness, and the starter.  The car still runs great and I expect the
motor to outlast the body of the car.  Not bad for a car that has
averaged about 50 MPG for the 155,000+ miles I've owned it.  Probably
the best car purchase I've ever made.  It's our second.  We had an '01
for a month or two before my wife totaled it.  This replaced it.

We recently bought a 2009 TDI Jetta.  We're approaching 10k miles on
it now and it averages around 40 MPG.  Not nearly as good as the 2000,
but it's a much larger and heavier car and it's got way more power
(140 HP 240 lb.-ft. of torque vs. the 90 HP in the 2000 TDI).  It's
also a much cleaner engine.  I'm really happy with it so far.  I'm
considering replacing the 2000 with a 2009 TDI Sportwagen next fall or
so.  That is if Subaru doesn't bring the Legacy with a diesel motor.
If they do, I think I'll buy one of those.

-Paul

On 1/31/09, nogera2 at att.net <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:
> I was just reading a newsletter sent out by a local car radio show host
(who
>  pimps for some local dealers). In discussing Diesel engines in cars he
lists
>  one of the advantages as the fact the engine will last up to 500,000
miles.
>  I remember reading some time ago that the legendary long life of Diesel
>  engines was not the fuel type but rather that truck manufactures built
>  Diesel engines to very high tolerances and designed the basic engine, at
>  much higher cost, for long life given the high mileage and type of use it
>  will receive. That diesels used in automobiles are built to the same
>  standards as regular engines and should last only as long as a normal
>  gasoline engine.
>
>  Given the conflicting information I now turn to the source I know I can
>  trust,  are the diesel engines used in cars as long lived as the
>  tractor-trailer engines?  ( Of course lets discount the diesels GM made
for
>  car use in the 1980s, we know they were all bad).
>
>  Bob
>  _______________________________________________
>  Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>  You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
>  Shop-talk mailing list
>
>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>  http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

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From kennedybc at comcast.net  Sat Jan 31 21:21:25 2009
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:21:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
In-Reply-To: <F5F81DBD4C5A40C69F8B6F09E4BD6439@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <C5AA6345.7854%kennedybc@comcast.net>

High mileage: I'm waiting for a diesel hybrid. Today's gas engines go a long
way as well. Our '86 Mercury Grand Marquis, small block V8 died at 260,000
miles, motor still going strong. Our '96 Explorer, same small block V8,
still going strong at 235,000 miles ago. Many years ago when Taxis were
mostly Plymouths, I asked the driver how long they kept them. He said
400,000 miles, but they put in a short block at about 250,000. Today's Taxi
is a Mercury, Lincoln or Ford and the owner happens to drive me to the
airport. He says they keep them about 3 years and up to 500,000 miles. He
says they have virtually no problem with the engines, other than the usual
little things. He also said, somewhat to my surprise, that the transmissions
go that far as well. He has a fleet of 18 cars. Of course, I read a long
time ago that 90% of engine wear occurs in the first minute as the oil gets
distributed and keeping them at operating temperature most of the time, like
Taxis do, helps a lot.
Brian


> From: <nogera2 at att.net>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:05:31 -0600
> To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Diesel vs. gas engines
> 
> I was just reading a newsletter sent out by a local car radio show host (who
> pimps for some local dealers). In discussing Diesel engines in cars he lists
> one of the advantages as the fact the engine will last up to 500,000 miles.
> I remember reading some time ago that the legendary long life of Diesel
> engines was not the fuel type but rather that truck manufactures built
> Diesel engines to very high tolerances and designed the basic engine, at
> much higher cost, for long life given the high mileage and type of use it
> will receive. That diesels used in automobiles are built to the same
> standards as regular engines and should last only as long as a normal
> gasoline engine.
> 
> Given the conflicting information I now turn to the source I know I can
> trust,  are the diesel engines used in cars as long lived as the
> tractor-trailer engines?  ( Of course lets discount the diesels GM made for
> car use in the 1980s, we know they were all bad).
> 
> Bob
> ____