From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Feb  1 08:55:57 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:55:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] resistance (tong type) spot welders
References: <4804EB02.5050509@b2systems.com>
	<002e01c89f3a$392ae090$ae10c263@ejrussell>
	<48052472.3020006@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <DF49526928AF472797C5206933FBA522@ejrussell>

I was browsing through some old emails and stumbled on this one.

Mike, any updates on your project? Did you use the H-F spot welder?

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Rambour" <mikey at b2systems.com>
To: "Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
Cc: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] resistance (tong type) spot welders


> Eric,
>
> Perfect, thank you for the response, its what I was hoping for.  I 
> was hoping someone here had actually used the HF one, sounds like it 
> will work good enough for me.
>
> I am in Santa Barbara, Calif. and thanks for the offer of the loan, 
> bet that once I get all the sheet metal bent and in place I only 
> need the welder for 3 or 4 days but you are right, shipping it will 
> cost more than buying one and having it for other uses in the 
> future.
>
>  Oh and since I was asked why don't I buy the firewall and floor 
> panels with the quote "since they are made for most cars".  I am 
> putting together a 1934 Singer Le Mans, you don't call too many 
> people and buy those parts.  The original firewall was a mixture of 
> wood and aluminum and the trans tunnel was made of "I sure don't 
> know", the floor is just plywood.  I don't have most of those parts 
> so I am building a proper firewall with no flammable wood and then a 
> nice trans tunnel, I will still use plywood for the floors.  I had 
> hoped to get to the UK this year for Singer national so I could take 
> LOTS of pics since I have not seen another one of these here in the 
> U.S. but I wont get there this year and don't want to wait anymore, 
> so I will guess it best as I can and no one in the U.S. will know 
> its wrong anyway (this list excepted of course).
>
>    mike
>
> Eric J Russell wrote:
>> I bought the H-F unit to spot weld on the sills & pillars for my 
>> MGA.
>>
>> It works adequately for my purpose. I made a few test welds using 
>> scraps of sheet metal then tested them to destruction. They were 
>> hard enough to destroy to satisfy me. BTW, I also used 'weld 
>> through' primer between the pieces. It does burn away the primer in 
>> the heat affected zone but didn't seem to adversely affect the spot 
>> welds. Keep in mind the unit is quite heavy -  a factor if you must 
>> contort into odd positions or make long reaches to make the welds. 
>> Also, the sheet metal should fit together well in order to make 
>> good spot welds. Don't use the tong's clamping force to draw the 
>> parts into contact.
>>
>> H-F does sell a set of 'extended reach' tongs. They are not 
>> available in the retail stores though. And now I can't find them on 
>> their web page.
>>
>> Where are you in cyberspace? You are welcome to borrow mine but it 
>> is probably not worth shipping vs buying one on sale at H-F.
>>
>> Eric Russell
>> Mebane, NC
>> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Rambour"
>>>
>>> I was looking at a tong type resistance spot welder,
>>>
>>>  Looking for suggestions, will the HF unit work for one job ? will 
>>> I be
>>> sorry I got it ?

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Feb  1 09:32:25 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:32:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher motor (was Epoxy recommendation)
Message-ID: <DE8A8BB4-D3C9-451D-BD0F-AE2EDB374314@groupwbench.org>

I JB Welded the plasitc sheath onto the motor shaft and that's when I  
discovered the hairline crack running down the length of the sheath.  
But it held well. However in the process of all that the 2 shouldered  
rubber grommet/washer things fell off and I can't figure out how they  
go back on. Each orientation leaks. So I bought a new motor from  
RepairClinic.com, because they had a page on the problem and fix of my  
particular DW.

The old motor is 3 amps and about the size of an econobox starter.  
What arrived is a generic, one size fits all motor that clips into a  
sump that replaces my DW's sump. The motor is .65 amps and weighs  
about 3 oz. It doesn't feel like there's any metal in it at all.  
Should I even bother putting it in? I looks like it'd have trouble  
powering a goldfish tank. Are looks deceiving, and a motor that draws  
1/6 the power can really do the job?

thanks,
jim 

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sun Feb  1 18:23:02 2009
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:23:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher motor (was Epoxy recommendation)
In-Reply-To: <DE8A8BB4-D3C9-451D-BD0F-AE2EDB374314@groupwbench.org>
References: <DE8A8BB4-D3C9-451D-BD0F-AE2EDB374314@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <49864AF6.4040708@comcast.net>

I think you'll have to do the experiment and let us all know.

Donald.

Jim Franklin wrote:
> I JB Welded the plasitc sheath onto the motor shaft and that's when I 
> discovered the hairline crack running down the length of the sheath. But 
> it held well. However in the process of all that the 2 shouldered rubber 
> grommet/washer things fell off and I can't figure out how they go back 
> on. Each orientation leaks. So I bought a new motor from 
> RepairClinic.com, because they had a page on the problem and fix of my 
> particular DW.
> 
> The old motor is 3 amps and about the size of an econobox starter. What 
> arrived is a generic, one size fits all motor that clips into a sump 
> that replaces my DW's sump. The motor is .65 amps and weighs about 3 oz. 
> It doesn't feel like there's any metal in it at all. Should I even 
> bother putting it in? I looks like it'd have trouble powering a goldfish 
> tank. Are looks deceiving, and a motor that draws 1/6 the power can 
> really do the job?
> 
> thanks,
> jim_______________________________________________

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Feb  1 20:06:00 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:06:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher motor (was Epoxy recommendation)
In-Reply-To: <49864AF6.4040708@comcast.net>
References: <DE8A8BB4-D3C9-451D-BD0F-AE2EDB374314@groupwbench.org>
	<49864AF6.4040708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <39935A4B-8F0B-4FA6-9344-F1E3231C1B7F@groupwbench.org>

Well, I decided to try the last combination of washer orientation, and  
it appears that was the ticket. Once I gently removed the macerator  
housing, I could see how it's shaft mated with the washer that  
contacted it, and it made a  lot more sense. So the epoxied shaft and  
greased other bits seems to be working well. I did a load of dishes  
and not only did it not leak, but it ran more quietly than it has in a  
while. I'm hoping for an easy return of the hamster-powered  
replacement motor.

jim

On Feb 1, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Donald H Locker wrote:

> I think you'll have to do the experiment and let us all know.
>
> Donald.
>
> Jim Franklin wrote:
>> I JB Welded the plasitc sheath onto the motor shaft and that's when  
>> I discovered the hairline crack running down the length of the  
>> sheath. But it held well. However in the process of all that the 2  
>> shouldered rubber grommet/washer things fell off and I can't figure  
>> out how they go back on. Each orientation leaks. So I bought a new  
>> motor from RepairClinic.com, because they had a page on the problem  
>> and fix of my particular DW.
>> The old motor is 3 amps and about the size of an econobox starter.  
>> What arrived is a generic, one size fits all motor that clips into  
>> a sump that replaces my DW's sump. The motor is .65 amps and weighs  
>> about 3 oz. It doesn't feel like there's any metal in it at all.  
>> Should I even bother putting it in? I looks like it'd have trouble  
>> powering a goldfish tank. Are looks deceiving, and a motor that  
>> draws 1/6 the power can really do the job?
>> thanks,
>> jim_______________________________________________

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Mon Feb  2 10:02:35 2009
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:02:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] rats
Message-ID: <396057.30847.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well the rats have found my 2003 HD2500 Silverado.  Yup they took a liking to
the engine compartment and started eating the fire wall insullation and hood
insullation.  Can any one suggest a website that sells replacement
insullation?  I prefer not going to a dealer.


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 10:16:24 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:16:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] rats
In-Reply-To: <396057.30847.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <396057.30847.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0902020916l344df462ybc99bad3b0fae7de@mail.gmail.com>

Check LMC truck, they had the hood liner for my '95 Suburban.

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Well the rats have found my 2003 HD2500 Silverado.  Yup they took a liking to
> the engine compartment and started eating the fire wall insullation and hood
> insullation.  Can any one suggest a website that sells replacement
> insullation?  I prefer not going to a dealer.
>
>
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From smarc at smarc.net  Mon Feb  2 19:49:41 2009
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:49:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
	<0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net>

Doesn't the Hobart 140 have a Purge setting?  My Hobart 180 does...

Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I have never worried about getting a perfect seal on any of the 
> fittings as I did not think there was much pressure in the line. After 
> all there is this big hole at the end of the gun so ...
>
> I have always just shut the cylinder valve when I was done and let it 
> go at that. I've been more worried about what might leak INTO the 
> lines after I shut it off and left it sit until the next weekend than 
> what the gas that was suppose to be in there did to the plumbing while 
> it was sitting. That is why I usually turn the wire speed down as low 
> as it will go and pull the trigger a few times if it has set unused 
> for a few days. This allows the preflow to purge the air or what ever 
> might have gotten in there while it was sitting unused out and I am 
> sure to get good shielding gas right at the start.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Feb  2 20:15:11 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:15:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
	<0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024> 
	<4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <COL110-W26C19287D773F3C3F8A7ECCC20@phx.gbl>

Not as far as I can tell.  The owner's manual doesn't indicate anything about
purging per se, but here's how it describes setting the gas flow rate:

Flow Adjust
Flow rate should be set when gas is
flowing through welding power
source and welding gun. Open
feedhead pressure assembly so
that wire will not feed. Press gun
trigger to start gas flow.

I could be wrong, but I assume that a purge valve could be used here, if the
140 had one.

> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:49:41 -0500
> From: smarc at smarc.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
>
> Doesn't the Hobart 140 have a Purge setting?  My Hobart 180 does...
>


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009

From smarc at smarc.net  Mon Feb  2 20:41:00 2009
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:41:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W26C19287D773F3C3F8A7ECCC20@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
	<0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024> 
	<4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net>
	<COL110-W26C19287D773F3C3F8A7ECCC20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4987BCCC.3050802@smarc.net>

Well, there's a purge setting on the 180, which is basically just a wire 
feed speed of 0. I use the purge setting to set gas flow without wasting 
wire. Maybe you could rig up a switch to open the circuit to the feed 
motor...


Jim Stone wrote:
> Not as far as I can tell.  The owner's manual doesn't indicate 
> anything about purging per se, but here's how it describes setting the 
> gas flow rate:
>
> Flow Adjust
> Flow rate should be set when gas is
> flowing through welding power
> source and welding gun. Open
> feedhead pressure assembly so
> that wire will not feed. Press gun
> trigger to start gas flow.*
>
> *I could be wrong, but I assume that a purge valve could be used here, 
> if the 140 had one.
>
> > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:49:41 -0500
> > From: smarc at smarc.net
> > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> >
> > Doesn't the Hobart 140 have a Purge setting? My Hobart 180 does...

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Feb  2 23:04:08 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 22:04:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <4987BCCC.3050802@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <297045.98156.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My Lincoln SP-125 doesn't have a purge switch either.  I have to open the lid and temporarily disengage the wire feed roller to purge it.

Doug


--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:

> From: Marc <smarc at smarc.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 10:41 PM
> Well, there's a purge setting on the 180, which is
> basically just a wire 
> feed speed of 0. I use the purge setting to set gas flow
> without wasting 
> wire. Maybe you could rig up a switch to open the circuit
> to the feed 
> motor...
> 
> 
> Jim Stone wrote:
> > Not as far as I can tell.  The owner's manual
> doesn't indicate 
> > anything about purging per se, but here's how it
> describes setting the 
> > gas flow rate:

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Feb  2 23:34:53 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 22:34:53 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl><0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
	<4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <EAF6AA7CD14C4D568A0004E83EF83E1B@HPPavilion>

Yes, my 140 Handler does.  It's about 9 years old.  It's on the wire feed
(Voltage) control, on which I believe the lowest setting is called purge.
Pulling the trigger provides gas, but no arc. 

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Marc
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 6:50 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions

Doesn't the Hobart 140 have a Purge setting?  My Hobart 180 does...

Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I have never worried about getting a perfect seal on any of the 
> fittings as I did not think there was much pressure in the line. After 
> all there is this big hole at the end of the gun so ...
>
> I have always just shut the cylinder valve when I was done and let it 
> go at that. I've been more worried about what might leak INTO the 
> lines after I shut it off and left it sit until the next weekend than 
> what the gas that was suppose to be in there did to the plumbing while 
> it was sitting. That is why I usually turn the wire speed down as low 
> as it will go and pull the trigger a few times if it has set unused 
> for a few days. This allows the preflow to purge the air or what ever 
> might have gotten in there while it was sitting unused out and I am 
> sure to get good shielding gas right at the start.
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Feb  3 04:12:45 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:12:45 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
References: <297045.98156.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E8158443866A496EA707A7B3550B12B5@niolon>

come on guys ???  it's not like your wasting a hundred feet of wire ... just 
set your wire feed to lowest or zero and pull the trigger for a foot or so 
of feed.. a couple of seconds will purge the hose.  It's under pressure and 
surely your hose is no longer than 10' or so.

later
John





> My Lincoln SP-125 doesn't have a purge switch either.  I have to open the 
> lid and temporarily disengage the wire feed roller to purge it.
>
> Doug

From arvidj at visi.com  Tue Feb  3 06:05:17 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 07:05:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
References: <297045.98156.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <40500DBB7E144BACB6907878D8FD89D8@dellc84024>

My Lincoln PowerMig 300 doesn't have a purge setting but it does have 
preflow - two seconds of flow before the wire feeds - so by setting the wire 
feed down as far as it will go and pulling the trigger and then releasing it 
after a second - repeat four or five times - the plumbing is purged - I get 
to double check the flow on the gauge - and either zero or very little wire 
is wasted. 

From racegt6 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 21:40:55 2009
From: racegt6 at yahoo.com (Charlie Schlismann)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 20:40:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W26C19287D773F3C3F8A7ECCC20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <297551.9293.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> Not as far as I can tell.  The owner's manual
> doesn't indicate anything about
> purging per se, but here's how it describes setting the
> gas flow rate:
> 
> Flow Adjust
> Flow rate should be set when gas is
> flowing through welding power
> source and welding gun. Open
> feedhead pressure assembly so
> that wire will not feed. Press gun
> trigger to start gas flow.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I assume that a purge valve could be
> used here, if the
> 140 had one.


I teach my welderettes (I've found women to be superior welders, once trained) to keep the feed roll pressure to a minimum.  Rollers slip when the wire hits a surface not connected to the work cable and gas purges the cablehose.  And absolutely no birdnesting of the wire.  As always, YMMV.

Charlie

#71 MiDiv F500

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 22:07:47 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 23:07:47 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <297551.9293.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <COL110-W26C19287D773F3C3F8A7ECCC20@phx.gbl>
	<297551.9293.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360902032107q78d08364v122a9f63a2d95b71@mail.gmail.com>

*The operation manual for my Micky Mouse Century short circuit mig has one
adjust the wire feed to slip if pressed against a wood block, etc . . which
prevents wire "nesting" and also would purge the hose without wire waste if
one thought that necessary.*
*Tony*

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Feb  4 09:03:29 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:03:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <4987BCCC.3050802@smarc.net>
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl>
	<0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024> 
	<4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net>
	<COL110-W26C19287D773F3C3F8A7ECCC20@phx.gbl>
	<4987BCCC.3050802@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0902041103000.28897@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Marc wrote:
> Well, there's a purge setting on the 180, which is basically just a wire 
> feed speed of 0. I use the purge setting to set gas flow without wasting 
> wire. Maybe you could rig up a switch to open the circuit to the feed 
> motor...

My lincoln SP175Plus has a purge setting.  You activate it by flipping the 
feed roller clamp up.

:-)

Mark

From kentsu at corvairkid.com  Wed Feb  4 10:20:46 2009
From: kentsu at corvairkid.com (Kent Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:20:46 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
Message-ID: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>

Hi,

I keep used oily rags in a metal container designed for that sort of thing
and it's getting full. I'd prefer to not send them to a landfill. I called
some commercial laundering companies local to me that provide towels,
uniforms, etc. and they don't have a way to accept a random assortment of
rags from a residential user. I also talked to a couple of car-related
businesses that I frequent and they rent their rags, so mine can't easily be
added. I also spoke with my local hazardous waste collection site and they
take oil and filters but not rags.

Any suggestions? I don't really have a washing machine that I can use to
wash and reuse them myself. I guess I could go to a Laundromat but that
seems kind of unfair to anyone who might use that particular washer after
me...

Thanks.

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Feb  4 10:31:24 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:31:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
References: <COL110-W348E27EF21C22AA502DA1ECCCA0@phx.gbl><0D99AE14DA1342DDB273C3081B05833B@dellc84024>
	<4987B0C5.3020301@smarc.net><COL110-W26C19287D773F3C3F8A7ECCC20@phx.gbl><4987BCCC.3050802@smarc.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0902041103000.28897@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <800F9957D3084FDE85B459B0D05BEA42@dellc84024>

I must have missed it in the manual the first time I read it. Upon review I 
see that my Lincoln PowerMig 300 manual suggests:

(1) Take all the stuff that you have allowed to accumulate on the the top of 
the welder and put it someplace else in the garage so that you can ...

(2) Swing up and open the gull wing doors so that you can ...

(3) Flip up the feed roller clamp so that you can ...

(4) Purge the system so that you can ...

(5) reverse step (3)  so that you can ...

(6) reverse step (2) so that you can ...

(7) reverse step (1) so that you can ..

(8) Now, if you can still remember what you were going to do in the first 
place, do it.

(9) But next time you might consider using the Miller TIG machine because it 
does have a purge setting on it.

> Howdy,
>
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Marc wrote:
>> Well, there's a purge setting on the 180, which is basically just a wire 
>> feed speed of 0. I use the purge setting to set gas flow without wasting 
>> wire. Maybe you could rig up a switch to open the circuit to the feed 
>> motor...
>
> My lincoln SP175Plus has a purge setting.  You activate it by flipping the 
> feed roller clamp up.
>
> :-)
>
> Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Feb  4 11:11:37 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:11:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
In-Reply-To: <800F9957D3084FDE85B459B0D05BEA42@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <567349.86511.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You forgot step 1B: Carefully tip the welder to one side so that the bottom of the door will clear the lip on the side of the welder cart.

Doug


--- On Wed, 2/4/09, Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com> wrote:

> From: Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Basic MIG Welding questions
> To: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>, "Marc" <smarc at smarc.net>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 12:31 PM
> I must have missed it in the manual the first time I read
> it. Upon review I see that my Lincoln PowerMig 300 manual
> suggests:
> 
> (1) Take all the stuff that you have allowed to accumulate
> on the the top of the welder and put it someplace else in
> the garage so that you can ...
> 
> (2) Swing up and open the gull wing doors so that you can
> ...
> 
> (3) Flip up the feed roller clamp so that you can ...

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Feb  4 12:03:24 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 14:03:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
Message-ID: <0KEK0074O2CFFR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

We seem to beat this one to death every few years.  Search for "rags" 
in the archive.  Anyway, as for me, I just wash them in my home 
washing machine.  I have never had a problem with any carryover into 
the next load, but I'll run some of my work jeans or something as the 
next load just to be on the safe side.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Feb  4 12:22:19 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:22:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c986fd$e6618b50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I guess I could go to a Laundromat but that
> seems kind of unfair to anyone who might use that particular washer after
> me...

After you've cleaned the washer thoroughly by hand (I find that neat Simple
Green on a rag works well), do a load of your own work clothes with a half
cup or so of SG added to your usual detergent.  That should clean the
machine well enough to avoid soiling anyone else's clothes.

It's also what I do with my home washer, works for me.

Haven't found just the right formula for washing oily rags yet, but small
quantities of rags in lots of hot water seems to be essential.  Best recipe
I've found so far is to let the machine fill and start agitating, then add
Palmolive dish soap until you get an inch or so of bubbles.

If I ever find the time, I'll try my grandmother's recipe: homemade lye soap
<G>

Or just look for a community hazardous waste round-up.  They usually aren't
so picky about what they will accept.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Feb  4 13:06:37 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:06:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <01fd01c986fd$e6618b50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
	<01fd01c986fd$e6618b50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <0KEK0080D578EL30@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I just use hot water, regular laundry detergent and a bit of 
Lestoil.  If they are stained, I don't care.  They still work just 
fine as rags.  And if there are any that I'm not happy with, I just 
throw them out.  They're just rags, after all.  For some things I use 
paper towels.  They get thrown out without any special environmental 
handling.  If your local hazardous waste program takes your rags, it 
would be interesting to know what they do with them.  BTW, I find 
that those red rags must have the least colorfast dye on the 
planet.  Put one white rag in there and it will come out almost as 
red as the red ones.

At 02:22 PM 2/4/2009, Randall wrote:
>Haven't found just the right formula for washing oily rags yet, but small
>quantities of rags in lots of hot water seems to be essential.  Best recipe
>I've found so far is to let the machine fill and start agitating, then add
>Palmolive dish soap until you get an inch or so of bubbles.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 14:10:19 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:10:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40902041310x44143dof9f5fc0f0afdb93b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Kent Sullivan <kentsu at corvairkid.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I keep used oily rags in a metal container designed for that sort of thing
> and it's getting full. I'd prefer to not send them to a landfill. I called
> some commercial laundering companies local to me that provide towels,
> uniforms, etc. and they don't have a way to accept a random assortment of
> rags from a residential user. I also talked to a couple of car-related
> businesses that I frequent and they rent their rags, so mine can't easily be
> added. I also spoke with my local hazardous waste collection site and they
> take oil and filters but not rags.
>
> Any suggestions? I don't really have a washing machine that I can use to
> wash and reuse them myself. I guess I could go to a Laundromat but that
> seems kind of unfair to anyone who might use that particular washer after
> me...
>

I soak them in a plastic bucket.  Hot water (to start), detergent, and
oxygen bleach. Allow to soak for a while (at least overnight, at
least, but I'll do a week or more.  Stir occasionally.), then skim off
the scum that rises to the top.  Wash normally, or just rinse
thourghly and dry.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Feb  4 14:27:27 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:27:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <0KEK0074O2CFFR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
	<0KEK0074O2CFFR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <021f01c9870f$61e4e5e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Anyway, as for me, I just wash them in my home
> washing machine.  I have never had a problem with any carryover into
> the next load, 

Hmm, what brand of detergent do you use?  I pretty much always get some
portion of black crud plated onto the inside of the drum ... what I've been
looking for is a solution that prevents that.

Have not tried Lestoil, but I will (if the new wife lets me experiment with
"her" machine <G>).

> If your local hazardous waste program takes your rags, it would be
> interesting to know what they do with them.

I'd guess they burn them, with a suitable stack scrubber to hopefully keep
most of the heavy metals out of the air.  The stuff that gets scrubbed out
probably does wind up back in the ground (which after all is where it came
from), hopefully such that it won't leak into drinking water in the future.

But since the EPA doesn't classify oily rags as hazardous waste (even when
the oil is used), perhaps they do just dump them in the landfill anyway.

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Feb  4 14:42:26 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:42:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com><01fd01c986fd$e6618b50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<0KEK0080D578EL30@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <8D222301AF424725A117DAFED34ED387@KARL>

I've found the same thing with the red rags you buy today.  I won't use one 
for solvent wiping anything, or for washing anything either.  Kinda limits 
their usefulness.

But in the 60's and 70's we used rental rags in the printing business, and 
they were bright orange.  We sent them back in a 55-gallon barrel, all 
glopped up with ink and solvents - real mean stuff, none of today's 
OSHA-approved materials  ;-)

The rags came back pretty and orange again, and only very occasionally was 
there any hint of a stain.  They'fade a bit over many cycles, but the color 
was very durable considering.  Eventually they stopped the orange color and 
sent white rags, which became a dirty gray after one cycle.  Maybe that was 
about the time that OSHA began, and so many solvents and pigments became 
restricted.

I've always wondered what in the world they used to clean those rags...

Karl



> BTW, I find that those red rags must have the least colorfast dye on the 
> planet.  Put one white rag in there and it will come out almost as red as 
> the red ones.

From kturk at ala.net  Wed Feb  4 15:12:40 2009
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:12:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] [BULK]Re:  What to do with oily rags?
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com><0KEK0074O2CFFR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<021f01c9870f$61e4e5e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <225E7D634A9C4BE898B8C67F51D98D8C@keithhrijwmm4p>

y'all just think to much....   Wash the things in the sink with dish soap 
and then wash them in your washer or the one at the quarter laundry... move 
on...

Hazardous waste talk is simply crap... more left wing dribble...  ( sorry it 
was just sounding a bit to tree huggerish to me )

The waste water is going to get scrubbed at the local plant if it ever makes 
it that far without clogging up your sewer line first... ( much more fun and 
expensive  )....

Or just pitch them in the trash....

Personally... I actually do wash them at home in the above discribed 
manner... and move on... ( but I pitch the really nasty ones )

Keith 

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Feb  4 15:33:10 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:33:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <021f01c9870f$61e4e5e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
	<0KEK0074O2CFFR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<021f01c9870f$61e4e5e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <0KEK008BSC41FJC0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Detergent is just liquid Tide.  I do put them in a 5 gal pail with 
some Lestoil to soak until I have enough to wash.  I think maybe the 
difference is that these rags are dirty, but not soaked through and 
through with grease.  It's not like they're dripping with grease and 
oil.  As for the local hazardous waste program, I think they hire 
some outside company to run it.  I don't think they're likely to do 
more than they are required to do, if it costs more money.  Where I 
live (no sewers) everything that comes out in the washer ends up back 
in the ground too.

At 04:27 PM 2/4/2009, Randall wrote:
> > Anyway, as for me, I just wash them in my home
> > washing machine.  I have never had a problem with any carryover into
> > the next load,
>
>Hmm, what brand of detergent do you use?  I pretty much always get some
>portion of black crud plated onto the inside of the drum ... what I've been
>looking for is a solution that prevents that.
>
>Have not tried Lestoil, but I will (if the new wife lets me experiment with
>"her" machine <G>).
>
> > If your local hazardous waste program takes your rags, it would be
> > interesting to know what they do with them.
>
>I'd guess they burn them, with a suitable stack scrubber to hopefully keep
>most of the heavy metals out of the air.  The stuff that gets scrubbed out
>probably does wind up back in the ground (which after all is where it came
>from), hopefully such that it won't leak into drinking water in the future.
>
>But since the EPA doesn't classify oily rags as hazardous waste (even when
>the oil is used), perhaps they do just dump them in the landfill anyway.

From kturk at ala.net  Wed Feb  4 15:44:17 2009
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:44:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] [BULK]Re:  What to do with oily rags?
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com><01fd01c986fd$e6618b50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><0KEK0080D578EL30@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<8D222301AF424725A117DAFED34ED387@KARL>
Message-ID: <94ED686F8A104712B54B634A1122117B@keithhrijwmm4p>

They use dry cleaning solutions... ( I got some a while back and it wasn't 
much more then Mineral spirits )

K 

From gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com  Wed Feb  4 15:54:25 2009
From: gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:54:25 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <021f01c9870f$61e4e5e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com><0KEK0074O2CFFR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<021f01c9870f$61e4e5e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D201AB35BE@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>

I put dirty/oily rags in a bucket filled with water and a combination of
dishwashing detergent (to cut the grease) and Tide.  The combination
serves two purposes.  It soaks the rags with water so they are no longer
flammable and it serves as a long pre-soak to washing them.

This process seems to release a lot of the dirt and grease and makes
them easier to clean.  The downside is a very heavy bucket full of wet
rags to tote to the washing machine.

Gil
Nashville
You are subscribed as gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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From bobkegel at seanet.com  Wed Feb  4 15:55:56 2009
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:55:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
Message-ID: <880BA92072374E2B9061B3648C189A12@8sv5f01>

I've always washed my rags and coveralls in the family washer without
problems. As noted, a long presoak helps. I've get good results on really
dirty stuff by adding a scoop of automatic dishwasher detergent along with
the recommended amount of laundry detergent.

Reminds me of when I was kid. I had my own personal washer, an old wringer
model that was in the house when we moved in. Used it to get my togs from
filthy to merely dirty.

Bob K

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Feb  4 16:04:21 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:04:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
Message-ID: <200902042304.n14N4LcT031100@moose.dimebank.com>

Back on the racefab or hotrod list, I recall the description
of storing these rags, when they were too oily to use, in
a 5 gallon bucket of soapy water. That did a lot to loosen the
worst of the sludge before putting it into the washer.

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 16:24:07 2009
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:24:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
Message-ID: <498A2397.3040402@gmail.com>

I have a large "wash tub" and just fill it with hot water and degreaser 
(Simple Green or whatever Sam's Club is selling).  Let them soak, stir 
them up once in a while and then drain.  Rinse.  Repeat.  That's makes 
them clean enough.  If the suds go away and oil starts to show on the 
top of the water, add more degreaser.

I dare not use my wife's new Whirlpool front loader washer.  I'd be 
blamed for every grease spot on something for the next two years. ;-)

Ben.....



On 2/4/2009 12:20 PM, Kent Sullivan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I keep used oily rags in a metal container designed for that sort of thing
> and it's getting full. I'd prefer to not send them to a landfill. I called
> some commercial laundering companies local to me that provide towels,
> uniforms, etc. and they don't have a way to accept a random assortment of
> rags from a residential user. I also talked to a couple of car-related
> businesses that I frequent and they rent their rags, so mine can't easily be
> added. I also spoke with my local hazardous waste collection site and they
> take oil and filters but not rags.
>
> Any suggestions? I don't really have a washing machine that I can use to
> wash and reuse them myself. I guess I could go to a Laundromat but that
> seems kind of unfair to anyone who might use that particular washer after
> me...
>
> Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Wed Feb  4 17:07:31 2009
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:07:31 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com><0KEK0074O2CFFR30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><021f01c9870f$61e4e5e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<0KEK008BSC41FJC0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <56B57D43E27A40F7AEA3194AB44A6EE2@Dell9200>

Here in the land of the free we just use them to get the wood pile started. 
We do need a burn permit if the fire is going to last more than two hours or 
if we get caught.  We will have the cleanest county dumps in the country. 
Tires are another story, can't burn them unless you are a builder.....

Mark
Nashville 

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Wed Feb  4 17:11:06 2009
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:11:06 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] [BULK]Re:  What to do with oily rags?
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com><01fd01c986fd$e6618b50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><0KEK0080D578EL30@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><8D222301AF424725A117DAFED34ED387@KARL>
	<94ED686F8A104712B54B634A1122117B@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <A2553FD8424F4E12AB567744FA8DABBF@Dell9200>

Hey Keith,

You still "goin" fast?  Haven't heard any updates in a couple years....

Mark
Nashville

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Feb  4 17:58:54 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 00:58:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] [BULK]Re:  What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <225E7D634A9C4BE898B8C67F51D98D8C@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <1116557920.3468781233795534693.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

re: 'The waste water is going to get scrubbed at the local plant if it ever makes 
it that far without clogging up your sewer line first.' 


In the SF Bay Area, the street drains flow directly to the Bay. Fortunately, all my toxic waste ends up in my neighbor's flower bed ;) 


bs (not a tree hugger, but don't like to mess up the environment either) 



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net> 
To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>, shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 2:12:40 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [BULK]Re: What to do with oily rags? 

y'all just think to much.... Wash the things in the sink with dish soap 
and then wash them in your washer or the one at the quarter laundry... move 
on... 

Hazardous waste talk is simply crap... more left wing dribble... ( sorry it 
was just sounding a bit to tree huggerish to me ) 

The waste water is going to get scrubbed at the local plant if it ever makes 
it that far without clogging up your sewer line first... ( much more fun and 
expensive ).... 

Or just pitch them in the trash.... 

Personally... I actually do wash them at home in the above discribed 
manner... and move on... ( but I pitch the really nasty ones ) 

Keith 
_______________________________________________ 

From kturk at ala.net  Wed Feb  4 18:27:48 2009
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 19:27:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] [BULK]Re:  What to do with oily rags?
References: <1116557920.3468781233795534693.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <E2E713573E144DEBA4795C4CC00D1F39@keithhrijwmm4p>

Betcha he's got GREAT flowers... LOL

I was cleaning something with Bleach one time and the dang Grass LOVED it...
funny deal...

K

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Wed Feb  4 19:39:18 2009
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:39:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
Message-ID: <9C688CBD9D8C4A79A7D66FED26B03BD5@Waynehouseputer>

I use them to start the burn piles with. The quality of the "red rags" these
days is so craptastic that I find it not worth trying to clean them. Having
a rapidly still growing 18 year old son, I pretty much have a lifetime of
cotton t-shirt rags.


-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kent Sullivan
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:21 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Feb  4 19:44:39 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:44:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
Message-ID: <498A5297.6000001@verizon.net>

Merely dirty rags get recycled to wipe grease off the tractor and 
backhoe.  Then they go in the burn barrel.  At Horrible Freight on sale 
they are too cheap to wash.

Dave C

Kent Sullivan wrote:
> Any suggestions? I

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Feb  4 23:08:02 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 22:08:02 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with oily rags?
In-Reply-To: <880BA92072374E2B9061B3648C189A12@8sv5f01>
References: <004d01c986ec$eacf2e60$c06d8b20$@com>
	<880BA92072374E2B9061B3648C189A12@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <FCFA9777A7A64DD68023F3E251EC980C@HPPavilion>

I use some of Costco's Oil Eater in the washer.  No issues.

I also use a bit of it in the windshield washers on my cars.  It cuts the
smearing down immensely.

Jack

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Feb 11 18:55:53 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:55:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners
Message-ID: <499381A9.5050203@141.com>

Since moving into our new home in Richmond Ky we've come to realize the 
water is very hard.  I'm just starting to look into water softeners.  
When I lived in Nebraska I had one and always found it a pain to have to 
deal with the salt.

So, is anyone familiar with the "no salt" water conditioners that are on 
the market?  I like the concept but would prefer to hear good and/or bad 
stories relating to their use, effectiveness and cost.

Here is one such system: http://www.easywater.com/

Thanks!

Brad

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Wed Feb 11 19:01:00 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:01:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <499381A9.5050203@141.com>
References: <499381A9.5050203@141.com>
Message-ID: <499382DC.8000704@141.com>

Since moving into our new home in Richmond Ky we've come to realize the 
water is very hard.  I'm just starting to look into water softeners.  
When I lived in Nebraska I had one and always found it a pain to have to 
deal with the salt.

So, is anyone familiar with the "no salt" water conditioners that are on 
the market?  I like the concept but would prefer to hear good and/or bad 
stories relating to their use, effectiveness and cost.

Here is one such system: 
http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/saltfree-water-softeners-c-75.html

Thanks!

Brad

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Feb 11 21:01:48 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:01:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <499382DC.8000704@141.com>
Message-ID: <20090212040148.MSHI21761.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Here is one such system: 
> http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/saltfree-water-softeners-c-75.html

Wild.  I had never even heard of such a thing.  

But I note that it's only effective against calcium carbonate; which while
likely the most common source of hardness is by no means the only one.  So
how effective it is depends on just what is in your water.  If it's
magnesium, iron, sulfur, etc, this isn't the softener for you.

Not quite sure what's in my water, but it doesn't seem to be calcium
carbonate.

Randall

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Wed Feb 11 21:09:12 2009
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 23:09:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <20090212040148.MSHI21761.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20090212040148.MSHI21761.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <25A831D2-FEA3-4211-B2E0-51D4FCFC1668@trebelhorn.com>

Central Kentucky is mostly limestone.  Lots of caves, lots of very  
hard water.
I'll go out on a limb and say that most of the mineral content of our  
water is calcium carbonate.

Matt, in Lexington

On 11 Feb, 2009, at 11:01 PM, Randall wrote:

>> Here is one such system:
>> http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/saltfree-water-softeners-c-75.html
>
> Wild.  I had never even heard of such a thing.
>
> But I note that it's only effective against calcium carbonate;  
> which while
> likely the most common source of hardness is by no means the only  
> one.  So
> how effective it is depends on just what is in your water.  If it's
> magnesium, iron, sulfur, etc, this isn't the softener for you.
>
> Not quite sure what's in my water, but it doesn't seem to be calcium
> carbonate.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as matt.lists at trebelhorn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Feb 12 06:53:21 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 07:53:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <499382DC.8000704@141.com>
References: <499381A9.5050203@141.com> <499382DC.8000704@141.com>
Message-ID: <499429D1.700@hornesystemstx.com>

Before I tried an alternate to the salt-based softeners I would do a lot 
of research.

There are many "new" methods of softening water on the market that seem 
like snake oil, some (most?) soften water without making any detectable 
changes to the water content, and only have glowing reports of their 
effectiveness by labs where the manufacturer paid for the testing.

I'm not saying that it IS snake oil, but that it MAY BE snake oil. More 
research is definitely called for before purchasing.

Peace,
Pat
 

Thusly spake Brad Kahler, On 2/11/2009 8:01 PM:
> Since moving into our new home in Richmond Ky we've come to realize 
> the water is very hard.  I'm just starting to look into water 
> softeners.  When I lived in Nebraska I had one and always found it a 
> pain to have to deal with the salt.
>
> So, is anyone familiar with the "no salt" water conditioners that are 
> on the market?  I like the concept but would prefer to hear good 
> and/or bad stories relating to their use, effectiveness and cost.
>
> Here is one such system: 
> http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/saltfree-water-softeners-c-75.html
>
> Thanks!
>
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1944 - Release Date: 02/10/09 17:44:00
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Feb 12 08:03:03 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:03:03 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
Message-ID: <200902120803611.SM07520@[166.70.182.40]>

Matt, thanks for the info.B  We need to get our water tested to see what its
composed of.B  If it is mainly calcium carbonate I'll have to look closer at
the process.
Randall, while I was in Pasadena I found the water to be reasonable,
definitely not hard compared to what we have in Richmond.
Thanks,
Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: "Matt Trebelhorn" <matt.lists at trebelhorn.com>
Sent 2/11/2009 9:09:12 PM
To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!Central
Kentucky is mostly limestone.  Lots of caves, lots of very
hard water.
I'll go out on a limb and say that most of the mineral content of our
water is calcium carbonate.
Matt, in Lexington
On 11 Feb, 2009, at 11:01 PM, Randall wrote:
>> Here is one such system:
>> http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/saltfree-water-softeners-c-75.html
>
> Wild.  I had never even heard of such a thing.
>
> But I note that it's only effective against calcium carbonate;
> which while
> likely the most common source of hardness is by no means the only
> one.  So
> how effective it is depends on just what is in your water.  If it's
> magnesium, iron, sulfur, etc, this isn't the softener for you.
>
> Not quite sure what's in my water, but it doesn't seem to be calcium
> carbonate.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as matt.lists at trebelhorn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com
Shop-talk mailing list
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talkhttp://www.team.net/archive

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Feb 12 08:06:21 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:06:21 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
Message-ID: <20090212080680.SM07520@[166.70.182.40]>

Pat, I'm leary of the process as well and snake oil may be an apt
description.B  Thats why I posted to the shop-talk list, hoping someone might
have tried it and could give an honest review of the process and how well it
works or doesn't work.
At our house the water is hard enough that the soaps aren't breaking down
properly and we get a greasy gooy mess in the drain pipes, spots on the
stainless sink, etc.B 
One way or another I'm going to have to condition the water.B 
Thanks,
Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: "Pat Horne" <pat at hornesystemstx.com>
Sent 2/12/2009 6:53:21 AM
To: "Brad Kahler" <brad.kahler at 141.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!Before I
tried an alternate to the salt-based softeners I would do a lot
of research.
There are many "new" methods of softening water on the market that seem
like snake oil, some (most?) soften water without making any detectable
changes to the water content, and only have glowing reports of their
effectiveness by labs where the manufacturer paid for the testing.
I'm not saying that it IS snake oil, but that it MAY BE snake oil. More
research is definitely called for before purchasing.
Peace,
Pat
Thusly spake Brad Kahler, On 2/11/2009 8:01 PM:
> Since moving into our new home in Richmond Ky we've come to realize
> the water is very hard.  I'm just starting to look into water
> softeners.  When I lived in Nebraska I had one and always found it a
> pain to have to deal with the salt.
>
> So, is anyone familiar with the "no salt" water conditioners that are
> on the market?  I like the concept but would prefer to hear good
> and/or bad stories relating to their use, effectiveness and cost.
>
> Here is one such system:
> http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/saltfree-water-softeners-c-75.html
>
> Thanks!
>
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1944 - Release Date: 02/10/09
17:44:00
>
>
--
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Feb 12 08:34:59 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:34:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <200902120803611.SM07520@[166.70.182.40]>
References: <200902120803611.SM07520@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <499441A3.3010707@xxiii.com>

Brad Kahler wrote:
> Matt, thanks for the info.B  We need to get our water tested to see what its
> composed of.B  If it is mainly calcium carbonate I'll have to look closer at

I'd definitely get it tested first.  As a child, I remember my nutty 
grandfather constantly tending to his water softener that he 
(erroneously) thought was going to remove the iron in his water...

I used these guys for a test a couple years ago:  http://www.ewatertest.com/
I can forward a copy of their report to anyone interested.  It shows 
what they [supposedly] test for and the limits.

   -wayne

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Feb 12 08:51:21 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:51:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <20090212080680.SM07520@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <1793361578.547381234453881798.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- "Brad Kahler" <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:

> At our house the water is hard enough that the soaps aren't breaking
> down
> properly and we get a greasy gooy mess in the drain pipes, spots on
> the
> stainless sink, etc.

Maybe you should be buying different soaps.  Talk to your neighbors about what works in your area.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L   1979 Caterham 7
1993 Suburban  1994 Miata C-package  2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net   
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums   http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Feb 12 08:56:43 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:56:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <20090212080680.SM07520@[166.70.182.40]>
References: <20090212080680.SM07520@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <499446BB.2090909@hornesystemstx.com>

Brad,

I've known folks who have sold the magnetic water softener systems, and 
they swear by them. Testing does not show that there is any change in 
the water, but they claim that it is on the molecular level, which I 
can't see.

I saw an ad for a company that sells an electronic softener that wraps a 
wire around the outside of the pipe, no coil since the wire is only 
hooked up on one end. I can't see how that would do anything useful either.

As far as the catalytic means of converting a particular component, I 
can't say, that is not my field.

I am quite skeptical of any "new" technology that is a large departure 
from the norm. If, after research, they appear to be on the up and up, 
I'll consider trying it if I have an overwhelming need.

Here in Central Texas we have very hard water also. Glassware has spots 
that won't come off, sink faucets get really cruddy and are a bitch to 
clean, etc. I haven't looked to see what the offending material is, buy 
probably should. We use a standard water softener and are pleased with it.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Brad Kahler, On 2/12/2009 9:06 AM:
Pat, I'm leary of the process as well and snake oil may be an apt
description.B  Thats why I posted to the shop-talk list, hoping someone 
might
have tried it and could give an honest review of the process and how 
well it
works or doesn't work.
At our house the water is hard enough that the soaps aren't breaking down
properly and we get a greasy gooy mess in the drain pipes, spots on the
stainless sink, etc.B One way or another I'm going to have to condition 
the water.B Thanks,
Brad

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Feb 12 10:58:25 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:58:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <499429D1.700@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <499381A9.5050203@141.com> <499382DC.8000704@141.com>
	<499429D1.700@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <056a01c98d3b$80fe34e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> some (most?) soften water without making any detectable
> changes to the water content, 

Hmm, that's an interesting question.  The site Brad linked to claims that
their unit removes the calcium carbonate (aka temporary hardness) from
solution and turns it into "micro crystals" that are left in the water as
suspended solids.  

It seems reasonable to me that, if that is true, the resulting water would
act "soft", eg lather easily and leave fewer deposits on fixtures and such.
You'd probably still get just as much scale when boiling it in a pan,
though.

But I wonder if you could tell the difference with a home hardness testing
kit (or with a laboratory test)?

Randall

From mikey at b2systems.com  Wed Feb 11 19:53:34 2009
From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:53:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <056a01c98d3b$80fe34e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <499381A9.5050203@141.com> <499382DC.8000704@141.com>
	<499429D1.700@hornesystemstx.com>
	<056a01c98d3b$80fe34e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <1234407214.8569.37.camel@WebBrowser>

 Not saying it does not work but that link for easywater reminds of the
magnets you tie-wrap around your fuel line to increase HP and MPG...

 Not a scientist but seems to me that if you change the water using
their magic electrical field, you would need to keep that magic field on
the water to prevent it from returning to its natural (hard) state.  I
for one would LOVE to find out I am wrong and would be one of the first
to buy one of these if they really worked, I am tired of salt !  but I
think I will buy the wife some roses for valentines day with my money
instead of one of these units, the returns are guaranteed in a way that
I can confirm it works.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Feb 12 11:20:08 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:20:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water softeners - wrong link the first time!
In-Reply-To: <056a01c98d3b$80fe34e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <499381A9.5050203@141.com> <499382DC.8000704@141.com>
	<499429D1.700@hornesystemstx.com>
	<056a01c98d3b$80fe34e0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40902121020i43aed857n7d64b987ad1bcd1c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> some (most?) soften water without making any detectable
>> changes to the water content,
>
> Hmm, that's an interesting question.  The site Brad linked to claims that
> their unit removes the calcium carbonate (aka temporary hardness) from
> solution and turns it into "micro crystals" that are left in the water as
> suspended solids.
>
> It seems reasonable to me that, if that is true, the resulting water would
> act "soft", eg lather easily and leave fewer deposits on fixtures and such.
> You'd probably still get just as much scale when boiling it in a pan,
> though.
>
> But I wonder if you could tell the difference with a home hardness testing
> kit (or with a laboratory test)?

Calcium carbonate has a number of crystal species.  Best known are
marble, chalk, and lime (the scaly stuff hard water leaves.)  it's
possible to discourage the formation of scale with magnetic fields,
but the effect doesn't last very long.  You'll still have scale
building up in your water heater, your pots,  and any where else water
spends time after going through the descaler.  (That includes pipes of
fixtures that don't get used much.)

Good quality modern water softeners are much nicer to deal with than
old ones.  Tell them what the hardness of your water is, and they use
a flow meter to tell when they should regenerate the matrix.  So
instead of having a timer that regenerates on a fixed schedule, they
regenerate only when they need to.  That saves salt, possibly quite a
lot, depending on how poorly the timer matched your actual use of
water.    If you've got room, you can also get huge brine tanks.  (A
friend recently had a tank that holds 800 lbs of salt put in.)  You
still have to schlep the salt to the basement, of course, but if
you've got a 300 or 400 lb tank, you only have to do once or twice a
year.  (and you can get it delivered, and let the delivery guy do the
schleping!)

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Feb 15 17:22:29 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:22:29 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] drill chuck keys
Message-ID: <F252EFD55F9444398A8E675797309500@niolon>

ok... everyone but me probably knows the answer to this question so I'll 
show how dumb I am and ask...

how do you fid the size of drill chuck keys ???  I've seen reference to 
pilot hole size and seen keys that are #1 or #4...but what does that mean... 
do all drill chucks with a 1/4" pilot hole have the same number of teeth ?? 
or does it differ by manufacturer...

I've got a drill press at work that is missing a key... the numbers/words on 
the chuck have been obliterated and I'd like to find a key to fit it...

help educate the dummy please ???

thanks
John



"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much 
government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering) 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Feb 15 18:52:07 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:52:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] drill chuck keys
In-Reply-To: <F252EFD55F9444398A8E675797309500@niolon>
Message-ID: <20090216015207.GYDI4162.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> how do you fid the size of drill chuck keys ???  I've seen 
> reference to pilot hole size and seen keys that are #1 or 
> #4...but what does that mean... 

For Jacobs chucks, Jacobs defines a series of chucks keys, K1, K2 ... but I
don't know their measurements.

> do all drill chucks with a 1/4" pilot hole have the same 
> number of teeth ?? 

Nope.  And the size and angle of the teeth can vary as well.

> or does it differ by manufacturer...

Yes, but the chuck is almost certainly not made by the same people that made
the rest of the tool.  Probably the majority of chucks are made by Jacobs,
but there are others around (or at least were).

> I've got a drill press at work that is missing a key... the 
> numbers/words on the chuck have been obliterated and I'd like 
> to find a key to fit it...

Easiest IMO would be to dismount the chuck and take it to a supplier that
will let you try keys in it.

BTW, I believe the "as much government as we pay for" quote is generally
attributed to Will Rogers.  It certainly seems much more his style than the
inventor of the points ignition system (and founder of Delco).

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 19:16:24 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:16:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] drill chuck keys
In-Reply-To: <20090216015207.GYDI4162.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <F252EFD55F9444398A8E675797309500@niolon>
	<20090216015207.GYDI4162.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40902151816u358d8f4apb8f875e5cd96e6da@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Easiest IMO would be to dismount the chuck and take it to a supplier that
> will let you try keys in it.
>

Easiest, I'd think, would to be trying a four way chuck key.  I've got
one that's fit every drill i've ever tried it on.  (though I've used
some big drill presses it wouldn't have fit)  It also works as a key
on the #$@#@# acetylene tanks that require such.  You can then take
the four-way key to a supplier and get one just for that drill, if you
need. Saves having to dismantle and align the chuck.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Feb 15 19:47:48 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:47:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] drill chuck keys
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40902151816u358d8f4apb8f875e5cd96e6da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090216024749.HVYC4162.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I've got one that's fit every drill i've ever tried it on.  

Maybe I'm just unlucky then.  Mine only fits about half my chucks.  In fact,
I think I've got 5 chucks that each take a different key; plus some keys
that came with the lathe that don't fit anything.

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Feb 15 21:32:00 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 23:32:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] drill chuck keys
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40902151816u358d8f4apb8f875e5cd96e6da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F252EFD55F9444398A8E675797309500@niolon>
	<20090216015207.GYDI4162.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<2400a5d40902151816u358d8f4apb8f875e5cd96e6da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0902152328440.21190@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009, David Scheidt wrote:
>> Easiest IMO would be to dismount the chuck and take it to a supplier that
>> will let you try keys in it.
>>
>
> Easiest, I'd think, would to be trying a four way chuck key.  I've got
> one that's fit every drill i've ever tried it on.  (though I've used
> some big drill presses it wouldn't have fit)  It also works as a key
> on the #$@#@# acetylene tanks that require such.  You can then take
> the four-way key to a supplier and get one just for that drill, if you
> need. Saves having to dismantle and align the chuck.

If the drill press is like mine, its just a morse taper and you can remove 
and reinstall the chuck in about ten seconds with the wedges.

I'd try a four way, just because its likely to work and is cheap, but I've 
also got a drill press that took me _forever_ to find the proper size key 
for.  I still couldn't tell you what the actual chuck key spec is, I just 
found a drillpress with a similar chuck at HF and ordered a replacement 
key for it.

Mark

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 22:07:02 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 23:07:02 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] drill chuck keys
In-Reply-To: <20090216024749.HVYC4162.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <2400a5d40902151816u358d8f4apb8f875e5cd96e6da@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090216024749.HVYC4162.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <ea2385360902152107s2ea7f587ldce8e16d18e893e0@mail.gmail.com>

*My experience exactly . . I bought a stupid poorly cast 4 way which fits
nothing well and jams in a few . . I threw it over the back fence! *

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> > I've got one that's fit every drill i've ever tried it on.
>
> Maybe I'm just unlucky then.  Mine only fits about half my chucks.  In
> fact,
> I think I've got 5 chucks that each take a different key; plus some keys
> that came with the lathe that don't fit anything.
>
> Randall
>  _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Feb 20 20:57:29 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:57:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anyone  there?
In-Reply-To: <297551.9293.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <297551.9293.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <499F7BA9.5020209@verizon.net>

Has there been any traffic on the list, or have I been unsubed?  Been 
quiet lately.

Dave C

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Feb 20 20:45:15 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:45:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anyone  there?
In-Reply-To: <499F7BA9.5020209@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <OF1142B760.082CC43F-ON85257564.00150D68-85257564.00163639@mail.megageek.com>

Yes it has been.

<obshop>  I just got home for 2 weeks leave from Iraq. 

I REALLY missed my shop!  Most amazing thing, my truck started right up 
after almost a year of sitting.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
02/20/2009 22:47

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] Anyone  there?






Has there been any traffic on the list, or have I been unsubed?  Been 
quiet lately.

Dave C
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Feb 20 22:00:56 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:00:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
Message-ID: <20090221050056.JJTC12934.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

Since it has been so quiet, thought I'd share something I recently learned.

I have several overhead light fixtures in my home, with multiple
incandescent bulbs and a dimmer.  Most CFLs (compact fluorescent lamps) say
in the fine print not to use them with dimmers; and don't work well at all
if you ignore the warning.  Until very recently, all the dimmable CFLs I've
seen were more expensive than I was willing to pay, like $12 each.

But the local Home Depot has just started carrying them at $7.50 for a
2-pack, so I picked up a couple of packs.  

They seem to work very well, dim quite nicely, and track the brightness of
the remaining incandescents reasonably well, except at very low light levels
where the incandescents have gone yellow.  Light output at full power looks
to my eye to actually be a bit more than the 100w incandescents, with a bit
higher color temperature too.

My only complaint so far is that they are a bit longer than standard bulbs,
which means they stick out of my glass shades by an inch or so.  But at 23
watts instead of 100 (per bulb), I think I'm going to start loading all of
my dimmable fixtures with them.  Given my family's tendency to leave the big
lights on when not in use, I expect that to knock at least 10% off my
monthly electric bill.

They are from FEIT Electric (which is a CA company, tho the bulbs are made
in China) and the box says the price includes a discount from my local
electric company; so they may not be found in all stores.  But it might be
worth a look, if you need them.

Not really shop talk, since my shop already has all fluorescent (except the
spot lighting on the drill press & mill); but we've discussed (and recussed)
them before.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Feb 21 05:36:47 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 07:36:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Anyone  there?
In-Reply-To: <OF1142B760.082CC43F-ON85257564.00150D68-85257564.00163639@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <499F7BA9.5020209@verizon.net>
	<OF1142B760.082CC43F-ON85257564.00150D68-85257564.00163639@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090221073512.01fd0090@cox.net>

At 10:45 PM 2/20/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote:

 >Yes it has been.

 >I just got home for 2 weeks leave from Iraq.   I REALLY missed my shop!
 >Most amazing thing, my truck started right up after almost a year of sitting.

Moose,

Welcome back!  Grab a pizza and beer, and enjoy your leave.   When you go
back, our prayers will be with you.  And remember to keep you head down.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sat Feb 21 07:14:26 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:14:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <20090221050056.JJTC12934.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <0DCA8F7E62A243FAA83477E7F4F5C253@DADSTOY>

Will these work with any dimmer or does it require a special type?

I have finally found some CFLs I like but it seems that what they rate as
equivalent of a 100 watt doesn't produce the same light in the room as a
100w incandescent. I have generally stepped up one level to get the same
brightness, but I am still probably saving money.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 12:01 AM
To: Shop-Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot


Since it has been so quiet, thought I'd share something I recently learned.

I have several overhead light fixtures in my home, with multiple
incandescent bulbs and a dimmer.  Most CFLs (compact fluorescent lamps) say
in the fine print not to use them with dimmers; and don't work well at all
if you ignore the warning.  Until very recently, all the dimmable CFLs I've
seen were more expensive than I was willing to pay, like $12 each.

But the local Home Depot has just started carrying them at $7.50 for a
2-pack, so I picked up a couple of packs.

They seem to work very well, dim quite nicely, and track the brightness of
the remaining incandescents reasonably well, except at very low light levels
where the incandescents have gone yellow.  Light output at full power looks
to my eye to actually be a bit more than the 100w incandescents, with a bit
higher color temperature too.

My only complaint so far is that they are a bit longer than standard bulbs,
which means they stick out of my glass shades by an inch or so.  But at 23
watts instead of 100 (per bulb), I think I'm going to start loading all of
my dimmable fixtures with them.  Given my family's tendency to leave the big
lights on when not in use, I expect that to knock at least 10% off my
monthly electric bill.

They are from FEIT Electric (which is a CA company, tho the bulbs are made
in China) and the box says the price includes a discount from my local
electric company; so they may not be found in all stores.  But it might be
worth a look, if you need them.

Not really shop talk, since my shop already has all fluorescent (except the
spot lighting on the drill press & mill); but we've discussed (and recussed)
them before.

Randall
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Feb 21 08:48:22 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 07:48:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <20090221050056.JJTC12934.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

When we moved to a new house ~3 years ago, it had zillions of those ceiling-mounted 65-watt reflector bulbs.  Then I saw that the local hardware store had a real good subsidized price on "Feit" brand reflector bulbs, so I bought a dozen.  At this point, there are only one or two left in servixe, the rest have all burned out.  I had left incandescent bulbs in s few places, and I found that the Feit bulbs burned out about as often as the incandescents.

Since then I have generally bought GE or Philips, and they seem to last longer.  Of course, they are all made in China...

Doug

> They are from FEIT Electric (which is a CA company, tho the
> bulbs are made
> in China) and the box says the price includes a discount
> from my local
> electric company; so they may not be found in all stores. 
> But it might be
> worth a look, if you need them.

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 09:29:24 2009
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:29:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20090221050056.JJTC12934.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220902210829q42105763hfe7eceff8af98047@mail.gmail.com>

We bought our brand new home around two years ago and the first thing
I did was replace every bulb in the house that didn't dim or was a
spotlight with a compact fluorescent.  In those two years I've only
had to replace two failed bulbs.  Both were Feits.  We bought the more
expensive "Daylight" or whatever bulbs for the more important areas
and they look great, light up much faster, and seem to last better as
well.

We didn't replace the four spotlights in the kitchen because, at the
time, the fluorescent replacements for those bulbs were really
expensive.  I should do some shopping and see if the prices have come
down a bit.

I also bought three 300W incandescent bulbs for the garage to add some
light out there.  At the time they didn't sell super-bright compact
fluorescent bulbs.  They do now, so I'll replace those with CF as they
burn out.  That is if I don't do a garage lighting project with
several fluorescent tube fixtures first.

Obviously, I'm a big fan of efficient lighting.  I can't wait for the
LED options to get more cost effective.

-Paul

On 2/21/09, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> When we moved to a new house ~3 years ago, it had zillions of those
ceiling-mounted 65-watt reflector bulbs.  Then I saw that the local hardware
store had a real good subsidized price on "Feit" brand reflector bulbs, so I
bought a dozen.  At this point, there are only one or two left in servixe, the
rest have all burned out.  I had left incandescent bulbs in s few places, and
I found that the Feit bulbs burned out about as often as the incandescents.
>
>  Since then I have generally bought GE or Philips, and they seem to last
longer.  Of course, they are all made in China...
>
>
>  Doug
>
>
>  > They are from FEIT Electric (which is a CA company, tho the
>  > bulbs are made
>  > in China) and the box says the price includes a discount
>  > from my local
>  > electric company; so they may not be found in all stores.
>  > But it might be
>  > worth a look, if you need them.
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>  You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
>  Shop-talk mailing list
>
>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>  http://www.team.net/archive

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sat Feb 21 09:59:01 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:59:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220902210829q42105763hfe7eceff8af98047@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F44800E1C58407B95A82F4BD0F45152@DADSTOY>

I've put a CFL equal to a 150w in my garage. In cold weather (Michigan) it
is very dim when you first turn it on but after a while it comes up to the
proper level. At least it doesn't flicker like my old tube fluorescent shop
lights do in cold weather.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Paul Parkanzky
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:29 AM
To: Doug Braun
Cc: Randall; Shop-Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot


We bought our brand new home around two years ago and the first thing I did
was replace every bulb in the house that didn't dim or was a spotlight with
a compact fluorescent.  In those two years I've only had to replace two
failed bulbs.  Both were Feits.  We bought the more expensive "Daylight" or
whatever bulbs for the more important areas and they look great, light up
much faster, and seem to last better as well.

We didn't replace the four spotlights in the kitchen because, at the time,
the fluorescent replacements for those bulbs were really expensive.  I
should do some shopping and see if the prices have come down a bit.

I also bought three 300W incandescent bulbs for the garage to add some light
out there.  At the time they didn't sell super-bright compact fluorescent
bulbs.  They do now, so I'll replace those with CF as they burn out.  That
is if I don't do a garage lighting project with several fluorescent tube
fixtures first.

Obviously, I'm a big fan of efficient lighting.  I can't wait for the LED
options to get more cost effective.

-Paul

On 2/21/09, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> When we moved to a new house ~3 years ago, it had zillions of those
ceiling-mounted 65-watt reflector bulbs.  Then I saw that the local hardware
store had a real good subsidized price on "Feit" brand reflector bulbs, so I
bought a dozen.  At this point, there are only one or two left in servixe,
the rest have all burned out.  I had left incandescent bulbs in s few
places, and I found that the Feit bulbs burned out about as often as the
incandescents.
>
>  Since then I have generally bought GE or Philips, and they seem to
> last
longer.  Of course, they are all made in China...
>
>
>  Doug
>
>
>  > They are from FEIT Electric (which is a CA company, tho the  >
> bulbs are made  > in China) and the box says the price includes a
> discount  > from my local
>  > electric company; so they may not be found in all stores.
>  > But it might be
>  > worth a look, if you need them.
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>  You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
>  Shop-talk mailing list
>
>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>  http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

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From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sat Feb 21 11:43:18 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:43:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
References: <76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01F62FA1A5D142549A150BDCDD1DB431@B50SS>

It has been my experience that CFL's don't like to be turned off/on (seems 
to dramatically shorten their lives). I put them in the bathrooms where they 
are turned off and on many times a day (no windows) and they seem to die 
frequently even though the total number of hours on are very low compared to 
the ones in the living room that get many hours of use but are turned off/on 
once a day. Perhaps it could be the humidity, too, I suppose.

As far as Feit CFL's, I bought a bunch a couple years ago and almost all of 
them failed -- I think they put out a bad batch.

To their credit, when I emailed them to complain (I had no receipt or proof 
of purchase), they agreed to send me replacements for free even without a 
receipt. Then someone in their shipping dept. screwed up and they sent me 
the replacements twice. I contacted them to let them know that they sent me 
twice as many bulbs as they should have and I offered to send them back if 
they would give me a shipping address, and they told me to keep them and 
they were sorry for the failures.

I don't think any of the replacements have failed, so I am thinking they 
just had a bad batch.With these mass-produced consumable coming from China, 
there could be millions of them in the supply chain (in containers on ships, 
in warehouses, etc.) before they find out that there was a 
engineering/manufacturing flaw.

I am impressed at how well Feit stood behind their products, though. 
Initially I thought I would never buy another Feit, but they changed my 
mind.

best,

doug

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
To: "Shop-Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot


> When we moved to a new house ~3 years ago, it had zillions of those 
> ceiling-mounted 65-watt reflector bulbs.  Then I saw that the local 
> hardware store had a real good subsidized price on "Feit" brand reflector 
> bulbs, so I bought a dozen.  At this point, there are only one or two left 
> in servixe, the rest have all burned out.  I had left incandescent bulbs 
> in s few places, and I found that the Feit bulbs burned out about as often 
> as the incandescents.
>
> Since then I have generally bought GE or Philips, and they seem to last 
> longer.  Of course, they are all made in China...
>
> Doug
>
>> They are from FEIT Electric (which is a CA company, tho the
>> bulbs are made
>> in China) and the box says the price includes a discount
>> from my local
>> electric company; so they may not be found in all stores.
>> But it might be
>> worth a look, if you need them.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Feb 21 15:16:50 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:16:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <01F62FA1A5D142549A150BDCDD1DB431@B50SS>
Message-ID: <20090221221650.ZLWO21761.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> It has been my experience that CFL's don't like to be turned 
> off/on (seems to dramatically shorten their lives). I put 
> them in the bathrooms where they are turned off and on many 
> times a day (no windows) and they seem to die frequently even 
> though the total number of hours on are very low compared to 
> the ones in the living room that get many hours of use but 
> are turned off/on once a day. Perhaps it could be the 
> humidity, too, I suppose.

I've had the same CFLs in one bathroom and the utility room (which likewise
gets flipped on and off many times a day) since maybe 2004 with no failures
yet.  Might not be FEIT brand though.

The very first fluorescent replacements for screw-in incandescents I bought
over 10 years ago are FEIT, and all they have needed is bulb replacement.
Not "compact" though, the bulbs are perhaps 6" long and the ballast adds a
couple inches to that, so only useful in very limited situations (like the
range hood and a floor lamp).

> As far as Feit CFL's, I bought a bunch a couple years ago and 
> almost all of them failed -- I think they put out a bad batch.

Makes sense to me.  A very common problem with goods sourced from China;
apparently no matter who does the importing.  But I've had a lot of Sylvania
bulbs that didn't last very long either, in my experience FEIT products are
at least as good and likely better.

Of course I could be prejudiced.  Years ago I worked for a company that
belonged to the same company that owns the Sylvania name.  When they
insisted that we start using Sylvania bulbs in our plant, our facilities
manager complained that the bulbs failed at least twice as often as the GE
bulbs he had been using.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Feb 21 15:23:39 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:23:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <0DCA8F7E62A243FAA83477E7F4F5C253@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <20090221222339.TNEK28844.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Will these work with any dimmer or does it require a special type?

AFAIK, will work with any dimmer.  Certainly nothing on the box about any
required dimmer, and there is nothing special about the dimmers I have tried
them with.

> I have finally found some CFLs I like but it seems that what 
> they rate as equivalent of a 100 watt doesn't produce the 
> same light in the room as a 100w incandescent.

It does seem like they tend to cheat.  Should have mentioned, the ones I got
are rated at 23 watts.  And to my eye they are a bit brighter than my
existing 100 watt bulbs (tho the existing bulbs are not new and their light
output does decrease with time).  The light seems harsher, though, which
might bother some people.

Randall

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 21 17:37:20 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 18:37:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <01F62FA1A5D142549A150BDCDD1DB431@B50SS>
References: <76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<01F62FA1A5D142549A150BDCDD1DB431@B50SS>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W15FDA0721F9F7D590CD4E4E1B10@phx.gbl>

I've heard or read that CFL do not like heat.

They last longer when pointed up instead of pointing down like from a ceiling
light fixture.



Most of the lights in our house are can lights, so they would be confined and
thus hot.

I have a few of them but not many.  I plan to readdress this at some point.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

'63 TR3B TCF587L

That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

See it moves!

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Sun Feb 22 00:59:27 2009
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:59:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable chain link fence post?
Message-ID: <7A2F1FD811CD4213807A9DCD5BA5BD22@Waynehouseputer>

I am putting in a short section of chain link fence and a 5' gate to span
the distance between the corner of my house and the wood perimeter fence.
The 5' gate will work 95% of the time as I can get a riding lawnmower,
wheelbarrow etc through it. However, there "might" be times where I need to
get a larger item (tractor, pickup) through this span to get into the
backyard. I don't really want to put two larger gates in across this span
since I have the 5 footer already from a previous project.

 

My thought was that if I ever needed a larger opening I could unfasten the
chain link mesh from the chain link gate post and just roll it back to where
it is fastened to the wood fence. However, it looks like the span from the
chain link gate post to the wood fence is a little too long to make it
without another chain link post put in the middle of that distance to
properly support the mesh.

 

I'm wonder about the possibility of sinking some type of sleeve or pipe in
the ground and slipping the middle chain link post into that pipe. The
theory being that the post could be lifted out and removed if I ever need to
roll the mesh back and open a passageway. Has anybody done something like
this? How did it work out?

 

I wonder if there is already a properly sized sleeve or pipe just for this
purpose. I think the chain link posts are 2.25" or so in diameter but I will
have to double check that.

 

Thanks

Wayne  

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Sun Feb 22 01:09:19 2009
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:09:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
Message-ID: <6458D229409D427BABB8BE1BEB0FF800@Waynehouseputer>

My shop is of pole building construction (t-girt/perlin). I finished the
inside which included putting in vertical studs on 16" centers, sheetrock
etc. These studs do not have the exterior metal siding fastened to them so I
can't just go by where screws are located to id the stud locations.

 

I have a situation where I need to mount a fairly stout bracket to the
exterior of the building and I need to find one of those studs to do so. I
anticipate needing to sink some good sized lag-screws to mount the bracket.
Further, the approximate area of where I need to mount this bracket includes
an area of the wall that has a bunch of electrical wiring running through it
(romex through holes in the studs). 

 

I was wondering if the stud finders would work through the metal skin to
find the studs? Do some of the stud finders also detect electrical wires?

 

Thanks

Wayne

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Feb 22 07:25:28 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 06:25:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
In-Reply-To: <6458D229409D427BABB8BE1BEB0FF800@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <611065.16605.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If the studs are touching the metal siding, can't you just tap on it until you feel the presence of a stud?

Doug


--- On Sun, 2/22/09, cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
> To: "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 3:09 AM
> 
> I was wondering if the stud finders would work through the
> metal skin to
> find the studs? Do some of the stud finders also detect
> electrical wires?

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 22 07:28:48 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 08:28:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
References: <611065.16605.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <249B740C35F54F2890C6628477D386E9@KARL>

Or loosen and pull back an edge of the steel siding to look ??

Karl

> If the studs are touching the metal siding, can't you just tap on it until 
> you feel the presence of a stud?
>
> Doug
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/22/09, cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
>> To: "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 3:09 AM
>>
>> I was wondering if the stud finders would work through the
>> metal skin to
>> find the studs? Do some of the stud finders also detect
>> electrical wires?

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Feb 22 07:28:24 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:28:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
In-Reply-To: <249B740C35F54F2890C6628477D386E9@KARL>
Message-ID: <OF47204760.059CDF31-ON85257565.004F619D-85257565.00508C57@mail.megageek.com>

Maybe mine is different, but doesn't your siding have screws going into 
the studs from that side?  Can't you just use the existing screw lines to 
identify where the studs are?

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
02/22/2009 09:17
Please respond to
Karl Vacek <KVacek at Ameritech.net>


To
"cornerexit" <cornerexit at gmail.com>, "Shop-Talk List" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?






Or loosen and pull back an edge of the steel siding to look ??

Karl

> If the studs are touching the metal siding, can't you just tap on it 
until 
> you feel the presence of a stud?
>
> Doug
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/22/09, cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
>> To: "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 3:09 AM
>>
>> I was wondering if the stud finders would work through the
>> metal skin to
>> find the studs? Do some of the stud finders also detect
>> electrical wires?
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

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From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Feb 22 07:54:58 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:54:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090222095442.01c8ca28@cox.net>

At 03:09 AM 2/22/2009, Wayne wrote:

 >I have a situation where I need to mount a fairly stout bracket to 
the exterior of
 >the building and I need to find one of those studs to do so....

 >Further, the approximate area of where I need to mount this bracket includes
 >an area of the wall that has a bunch of electrical wiring running through it
 >(romex through holes in the studs).

 >I was wondering if the stud finders would work through the metal skin to
 >find the studs? Do some of the stud finders also detect electrical wires?

Wayne,

I have an old Craftsman one, probably 15 yrs old at least.  It doesn't.

Your best bet would be a fox & hound wire tracer like:

http://cableorganizer.com/triplett/tone-generator/fox2-hound2kit.htm#features

I've seen some no name brand ones at one of the large box hardware stores.
I just looked on home depot and didn't see it thought.  This Triplet 
is a little
expensive @ about $100 where the no name ones are about $60ish.

If you know anyone that does telephone work, or network cable installations,
they usually have one.  Maybe you could borrow one.  You'll probably have to
trip the mains or at least the circuit you want to trace.  We had a problem at
my dad's house, one of the circuit breakers would trip instantly after being
set.  I got a buddy on mine, that used to do telephone work, who had one.
We pulled the panel, tripped the main, and then removed the breaker for the
circuit that was bad.  We connected the fox and hound and traced the wiring
through the house.  Turns out that the fellow that installed dad's new dish
washer, took one leg of a 220 V wire and connected it to ground.

Also had to use it on another friends house the the phone got all screwed
up.  They had had 2 or 3 different phone companies.  Each one ran their
own phone lines, not using the existing ones.

Anyway, there are pretty handy if you're doing electrical (either house hold,
or auto) or phone work.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Feb 22 08:09:15 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:09:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable chain link fence post?
In-Reply-To: <7A2F1FD811CD4213807A9DCD5BA5BD22@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <05CF2BE4C9454D34BB5694F26E092CF7@DADSTOY>

Sound like a good plan....I'd try to find a piece of PVC pipe that your
fence post would fit in and then set it in cement. This way you would avoid
having two steel pipes rusting together. Also, pipe generally has a seam on
the inside that means you can't get a slip fit.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of cornerexit
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:59 AM
To: 'Shop Talk'
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable chain link fence post?


I am putting in a short section of chain link fence and a 5' gate to span
the distance between the corner of my house and the wood perimeter fence.
The 5' gate will work 95% of the time as I can get a riding lawnmower,
wheelbarrow etc through it. However, there "might" be times where I need to
get a larger item (tractor, pickup) through this span to get into the
backyard. I don't really want to put two larger gates in across this span
since I have the 5 footer already from a previous project.



My thought was that if I ever needed a larger opening I could unfasten the
chain link mesh from the chain link gate post and just roll it back to where
it is fastened to the wood fence. However, it looks like the span from the
chain link gate post to the wood fence is a little too long to make it
without another chain link post put in the middle of that distance to
properly support the mesh.



I'm wonder about the possibility of sinking some type of sleeve or pipe in
the ground and slipping the middle chain link post into that pipe. The
theory being that the post could be lifted out and removed if I ever need to
roll the mesh back and open a passageway. Has anybody done something like
this? How did it work out?



I wonder if there is already a properly sized sleeve or pipe just for this
purpose. I think the chain link posts are 2.25" or so in diameter but I will
have to double check that.



Thanks

Wayne
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

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From paul.mele at usermail.com  Sun Feb 22 08:12:51 2009
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:12:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <20090221222339.TNEK28844.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <0DCA8F7E62A243FAA83477E7F4F5C253@DADSTOY>
	<20090221222339.TNEK28844.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <017301c99500$0852c2f0$18f848d0$@mele@usermail.com>

anybody make note of the lumens for the incandescent vs CFL comparison in
brightness?


> I have finally found some CFLs I like but it seems that what 
> they rate as equivalent of a 100 watt doesn't produce the 
> same light in the room as a 100w incandescent.

It does seem like they tend to cheat.  Should have mentioned, the ones I got
are rated at 23 watts.  And to my eye they are a bit brighter than my
existing 100 watt bulbs (tho the existing bulbs are not new and their light
output does decrease with time).  The light seems harsher, though, which
might bother some people.

Randall
_______________________________________________

From brabel at comcast.net  Sun Feb 22 10:08:28 2009
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:08:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud finder work with metal siding?
In-Reply-To: <6458D229409D427BABB8BE1BEB0FF800@Waynehouseputer>
References: <6458D229409D427BABB8BE1BEB0FF800@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <B01B98D9-F76F-47C3-BB68-49B6B49921AA@comcast.net>

Wayne -

I would figure out the what height to mount the bracket and measure  
the height of one of the mounting holes. Locate a stud on the inside  
and mark the appropriate height. Then drill a 1/4" hole from the  
inside, clear through the stud and through the metal. You could drill  
any additional holes from the outside. Now just use 5/16" or 3/8" lag  
screws to mount the bracket. Strong, weathertight, and accurate.

Some stud finders will help locate electrical wires ("deep scan"), but  
I've never been totally sure of them, so I might even open up the  
sheetrock and peek before proceeding.


- Bill Rabel
   Anacortes, WA



> My shop is of pole building construction (t-girt/perlin). I finished  
> the
> inside which included putting in vertical studs on 16" centers,  
> sheetrock
> etc. These studs do not have the exterior metal siding fastened to  
> them so I
> can't just go by where screws are located to id the stud locations.
>
> I have a situation where I need to mount a fairly stout bracket to the
> exterior of the building and I need to find one of those studs to do  
> so. I
> anticipate needing to sink some good sized lag-screws to mount the  
> bracket.
> Further, the approximate area of where I need to mount this bracket  
> includes
> an area of the wall that has a bunch of electrical wiring running  
> through it
> (romex through holes in the studs).
>
> I was wondering if the stud finders would work through the metal  
> skin to
> find the studs? Do some of the stud finders also detect electrical  
> wires?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Feb 22 11:27:10 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:27:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <017301c99500$0852c2f0$18f848d0$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <20090222182711.JJFL8036.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> anybody make note of the lumens for the incandescent vs CFL 
> comparison in brightness?

Only the rated value; I don't have any way to measure actual lumens.

GE Soft White 100w rated 1690 lumens
ACE Standard 100w rated 1710 lumens
FEIT 23w dimmable CFL rated 1600 lumens

But I don't put a lot of faith in those numbers.  If I recall correctly, the
lumen does not take into account the response of the human eye.  Checking
online just now, I couldn't even find a bandwidth definition, only a single
frequency.  Much like "hp" of an air compressor, that leaves a lot of wiggle
room.

Randall

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sun Feb 22 16:08:34 2009
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:08:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] CFLs
Message-ID: <BC4D4EDF9AE8450DA4ED6DFF6DF495B0@OFFICEPC>

FYI: they don't work well with magnetic dimmers.  These are the fancy and
pricey ones that can dim from multiple locations.  The bulbs blink a bit
when set to off.  

The FEIT dimmables are often sold here with a PGE subsidy and sell for $1.
Even with a shorter life they are a good deal.


I second seeing a shortened life when burning base up.

Mark.

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sun Feb 22 18:55:55 2009
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:55:55 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] CFLs, a correction
Message-ID: <9B071A23314C42E5806FBC6ADB1DA2F2@OFFICEPC>

Just saw the box they came in: not FEIT, but ULA (U lighting America
[product of China]).
They work really well, except for the one dud I got just a day out of.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Miller [mailto:markmiller at threeboysfarm.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:09 PM
To: 'shop-talk at autox.team.net'
Subject: RE: CFLs

FYI: they don't work well with magnetic dimmers.  These are the fancy and
pricey ones that can dim from multiple locations.  The bulbs blink a bit
when set to off.  

The FEIT dimmables are often sold here with a PGE subsidy and sell for $1.
Even with a shorter life they are a good deal.


I second seeing a shortened life when burning base up.

Mark.

From trevor at boicey.com  Sun Feb 22 20:23:14 2009
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 22:23:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable flourescent question...
In-Reply-To: <9B071A23314C42E5806FBC6ADB1DA2F2@OFFICEPC>
References: <9B071A23314C42E5806FBC6ADB1DA2F2@OFFICEPC>
Message-ID: <49A216A2.5080201@boicey.com>

While we are on the topic...

I just moved to a new house, and one of the dimmers also controls a tube 
fluorescent.

The tube seems to dim normally, and shows no sign of trouble.

Could it be a dimmable fluorescent fixture or is it just a DPO mistake 
that hasn't exploded yet?

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 22 20:44:03 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:44:03 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable flourescent question...
References: <9B071A23314C42E5806FBC6ADB1DA2F2@OFFICEPC>
	<49A216A2.5080201@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <FD6DC3965B9E48FA919971BA8AF3ACF1@B50SS>

Dear Trevor,

Well this is interesting -- I have never heard of a tube fluorescent on a 
dimmer. I did not know it was possible...

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trevor Boicey" <trevor at boicey.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:23 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable flourescent question...


> While we are on the topic...
>
> I just moved to a new house, and one of the dimmers also controls a tube 
> fluorescent.
>
> The tube seems to dim normally, and shows no sign of trouble.
>
> Could it be a dimmable fluorescent fixture or is it just a DPO mistake 
> that hasn't exploded yet?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Feb 22 21:11:07 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:11:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable flourescent question...
In-Reply-To: <49A216A2.5080201@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <20090223041107.EDQ27443.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Could it be a dimmable fluorescent fixture or is it just a 
> DPO mistake that hasn't exploded yet?

Such things do exist; and I think you would see problems pretty much
instantly if it were not a dimmable fixture/ballast.

I have a couple of fluorescent floor lamps that came with an integral
dimmer, and the bulb is basically a convoluted tube.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Feb 23 10:08:58 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:08:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220902210829q42105763hfe7eceff8af98047@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090221050056.JJTC12934.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<bdde53220902210829q42105763hfe7eceff8af98047@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04ab01c995d9$6af4a6b0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> We didn't replace the four spotlights in the kitchen because, at the
> time, the fluorescent replacements for those bulbs were really
> expensive.  I should do some shopping and see if the prices have come
> down a bit.

Costco yesterday had "65w equivalent" reflector fluorescents.  The
"dimmable" ones were $20/3 pack; while I think the non-dimmable were about
$18/6 pack.

Sorry, I've forgotten the brand already, but I think it was FEIT.  The
non-dimmable ones also had a note about being OK in hot locations.

Didn't buy any, although I do have one fixture in the hall that would
probably work better with a reflector bulb.  

But we did pick up a Garmin GPS with free traffic updates for $250.
Marginally cheaper on-line, but Costco has a 90 day return policy with no
restocking charge.  The wife gets lost easily on detours, and the freeway
she drives almost every day is being torn up for repairs/improvements so big
traffic jams are common.  Having the GPS figure quickest route based on
current traffic should be worth it just in frustration and missed
appointments. YMMV

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Feb 23 11:21:56 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:21:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] CFLs
In-Reply-To: <BC4D4EDF9AE8450DA4ED6DFF6DF495B0@OFFICEPC>
References: <BC4D4EDF9AE8450DA4ED6DFF6DF495B0@OFFICEPC>
Message-ID: <04cc01c995e3$9cb0ff50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> FYI: they don't work well with magnetic dimmers.  

I give up, what's a magnetic dimmer?  Are we talking moving core?  Saturable
core?  Something else?

Randall

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Feb 23 13:08:42 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, J T (IT))
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:08:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W15FDA0721F9F7D590CD4E4E1B10@phx.gbl>
References: <76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><01F62FA1A5D142549A150BDCDD1DB431@B50SS>
	<BAY123-W15FDA0721F9F7D590CD4E4E1B10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

> I've heard or read that CFL do not like heat.
>
> They last longer when pointed up instead of pointing down
> like from a ceiling light fixture.

I remember reading about this a while back.

They make two kinds, of CFLs - ones meant to point up, and ones meant to
point down.  Unfortunately, the "point down" ones are hard to find (and
more expensive if you do find them).  It has to do with the electronics
packed in the base, and the heat traveling "up".

One problem I have with CFLs is the base.  I have a garage door opener
with sockets for a light bulb on each side.  I'd like to put CFLs in
them, but the socket has a tappered opening that confirms to a normal
bulb - the CFLs won't screw into them and make contact.  I've looked for
a short extension - some thing to screw into the socket that the CFL
then screws into, but so far no luck.  I have a couple of "pull string"
sockets that I'll use, but they extend the assembly out to far -
allowing for more vibrations and preventing the cover from fitting...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Feb 23 13:22:10 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, J T (IT))
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:22:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removable chain link fence post?
In-Reply-To: <7A2F1FD811CD4213807A9DCD5BA5BD22@Waynehouseputer>
References: <7A2F1FD811CD4213807A9DCD5BA5BD22@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A10C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

> However, there "might" be times where I need to get a
> larger item (tractor, pickup) through this span to get
> into the backyard. I don't really want to put two larger
> gates in across this span

I needed a similar "occasional" gate at one time.  I bought four right
angle corner pieces, two vertical pipes, a pair of hinges, and the bars
that slip into the end of the chain link to attach it to the ends.  I
then removed the 10 foot chunk of fence and bolted it all together.  I
then had a "gate" that looked like the regular part of the fence, but
when needed, I could unlatch the end away from the hinge, and lift it up
and swing my 10 foot wide "gate" open by hand (I had to "carry" it as it
didn't swing freely).  If worked just fine and was cheap to make.

These are the "corner pieces":
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=92187-264-
87088&detail=&lpage=none

The tension bar that slips into the end of the chain link:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=92175-264-
13605&lpage=none

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 14:49:26 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:49:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<01F62FA1A5D142549A150BDCDD1DB431@B50SS>
	<BAY123-W15FDA0721F9F7D590CD4E4E1B10@phx.gbl>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40902231349p5a6a6a4elb419d41c7b8787a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Mullen, J T (IT) <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
>>
>
> One problem I have with CFLs is the base.  I have a garage door opener
> with sockets for a light bulb on each side.  I'd like to put CFLs in
> them, but the socket has a tappered opening that confirms to a normal
> bulb - the CFLs won't screw into them and make contact.

That's not a problem with CFLs.  The problem here is that the person
who designed the socket is a moron.  I wouldn't have thought you could
screw up something as well defined as an edison screw base, but I
guess I've underestimated the morons they let design stuff.  Yet
again.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Feb 23 15:34:22 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:34:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] A really off topic question......
Message-ID: <95C7652BB7B447B19D7FF95D77BB0C7B@DADSTOY>

Last weekend I visited my brother in law who had recently purchased a
Toshiba Regza LCD TV. Since he is "technologically challenged" he asked me
to set it up for him. I'm still in the CRT non HD mode but I can at least
find my way around a menu. I did manage to get it pretty well adjusted
except for one annoying problem. Regardless of what format I set it to I
could not adjust it so that the banners at the top and bottom displayed
fully. This was particularly annoying watching a basketball game because you
couldn't see the scores, the clock or the shot clock. On old tech CRT TVs
there use to be and adjustment that you could make with a screwdriver to
"scrunch" the vertical enough to get everything in.

Does anybody have a suggestion?

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Feb 23 15:37:17 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:37:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] A really off topic question......
In-Reply-To: <95C7652BB7B447B19D7FF95D77BB0C7B@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <OFFC458318.F49CB0E3-ON85257566.007BD25C-85257566.007D504C@mail.megageek.com>

It's funny, I just bought one of those TVs last week.  (I bought that 
model and a Sony Bravida.)

I came home to two broken TVs.

Anyway, what I'm finding out is that there are multiple places where you 
can set the screen size.

Many Satellite and cable boxes also do this so you need to check many 
places.

What you are trying to do is not "scrunch" the picture down.  Welcome to 
the next generation of TV.  The words "aspect ratio" will haunt us for 
decades to come.

Many TV shows were shot in the old aspect ratio and your new TV wants to 
play them in the new ratio.

You are looking for button on your remote that say "pic size"  scroll 
though the choices.

There are about 4 modes (but your cable box may be sending the mode 
incorrectly as well.)

I hope this helps.


Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"Gerald Brazil" <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
02/23/2009 17:23

To
"shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] A really off topic question......






Last weekend I visited my brother in law who had recently purchased a
Toshiba Regza LCD TV. Since he is "technologically challenged" he asked me
to set it up for him. I'm still in the CRT non HD mode but I can at least
find my way around a menu. I did manage to get it pretty well adjusted
except for one annoying problem. Regardless of what format I set it to I
could not adjust it so that the banners at the top and bottom displayed
fully. This was particularly annoying watching a basketball game because 
you
couldn't see the scores, the clock or the shot clock. On old tech CRT TVs
there use to be and adjustment that you could make with a screwdriver to
"scrunch" the vertical enough to get everything in.

Does anybody have a suggestion?
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Feb 23 16:10:44 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 23:10:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40902231349p5a6a6a4elb419d41c7b8787a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <711220061.390491235430644006.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

"When you make something idiot-proof, somebody will just make a better idiot." 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com> 
To: "J T Mullen (IT)" <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> 
Cc: "shop-talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:49:26 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot 

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Mullen, J T (IT) <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote: 
>> 
> 
> One problem I have with CFLs is the base. I have a garage door opener 
> with sockets for a light bulb on each side. I'd like to put CFLs in 
> them, but the socket has a tappered opening that confirms to a normal 
> bulb - the CFLs won't screw into them and make contact. 

That's not a problem with CFLs. The problem here is that the person 
who designed the socket is a moron. I wouldn't have thought you could 
screw up something as well defined as an edison screw base, but I 
guess I've underestimated the morons they let design stuff. Yet 
again. 

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Feb 23 17:11:33 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:11:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40902231349p5a6a6a4elb419d41c7b8787a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <76515.68136.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<01F62FA1A5D142549A150BDCDD1DB431@B50SS>
	<BAY123-W15FDA0721F9F7D590CD4E4E1B10@phx.gbl>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<2400a5d40902231349p5a6a6a4elb419d41c7b8787a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A33B35.8080804@milleredp.com>

David Scheidt wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Mullen, J T (IT) <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
>> One problem I have with CFLs is the base.  I have a garage door opener
>> with sockets for a light bulb on each side.  I'd like to put CFLs in
>> them, but the socket has a tappered opening that confirms to a normal
>> bulb - the CFLs won't screw into them and make contact.
> 
> That's not a problem with CFLs.  The problem here is that the person
> who designed the socket is a moron.  I wouldn't have thought you could
> screw up something as well defined as an edison screw base, but I
> guess I've underestimated the morons they let design stuff.  Yet
> again.

I think what he means is that the silo into which the bulb is inserted 
is conical, conforming to the typical taper of an incandescent bulb, 
with a conventional Edison socket at the bottom, while the CF bulb tends 
to be more cylindrical in shape with the transformer at the bottom and 
won't fit all the way into the silo (and in such tight quarters might 
cook the transformer even if it did.)

John.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Feb 23 18:46:14 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:46:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I wouldn't consider a garage door opener to be a good application for CF bulbs.  When the door opens, you want the illumination right away, instead of having to wait a minute for a CF bulb to reach a reasonable brightness.  Also, I can't imagine a garage door opener light being on for more than 15 minutes a day, so it would take a long time for the CF to pay for itself.

In my house, I put CF bulbs in places like the kitchen and family room, which tend to stay lit for a while.  But the hallways, stairs, and bathrooms still have regular bulbs, since when you turn those lights on, you need to be able to see right away, and they are likely to be off again in a minute or two.

Doug


--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Mullen, J T (IT) <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:

> 
> One problem I have with CFLs is the base.  I have a garage
> door opener
> with sockets for a light bulb on each side.  I'd like
> to put CFLs in
> them, but the socket has a tappered opening that confirms
> to a normal
> bulb - the CFLs won't screw into them and make contact.
>  I've looked for
> a short extension - some thing to screw into the socket
> that the CFL
> then screws into, but so far no luck.  I have a couple of
> "pull string"
> sockets that I'll use, but they extend the assembly out
> to far -
> allowing for more vibrations and preventing the cover from
> fitting...

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Feb 23 18:49:37 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:49:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <809824.31330.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

One other point:  The classic non-compact fluorescent fixture with
tube bulbs has immediate full brightness AND higher efficiency than CFs.

I've got two jumbo fluorescent fixtures in my garage, which replaced the two hanging incandescent bulbs that it had when I bought the place.

Doug

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 18:52:33 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:52:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40902231752t27b6b0a3tef004c009b42ab7e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't consider a garage door opener to be a good application for CF
bulbs. B When the door opens, you want the illumination right away, instead of
having to wait a minute for a CF bulb to reach a reasonable brightness.
B Also, I can't imagine a garage door opener light being on for more than 15
minutes a day, so it would take a long time for the CF to pay for itself.
>

Good CFLs are at full brightness in much less time than a minute.  And
they're putting out light instantly.  (I have CFLs in my garage door
openers because the plastic case of the one I replaced last year was
charred and melted.  It never had a bulb brighter than 60W in it,
either.  The replacement opener (which is nearly identical, but 10
years newer) had a metal sticker behind the bulb.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Feb 23 19:40:07 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:40:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <809824.31330.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<809824.31330.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008801c99629$353b6400$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> One other point:  The classic non-compact fluorescent fixture with
> tube bulbs has immediate full brightness AND higher efficiency than CFs.

Are you sure about that?  Those old magnetic ballasts weren't very good and
there are still a lot of them around.  Their power consumption doesn't
usually get included in the fixture rating; while the CFL does.

Also had lousy power factor, which means the loss in the wires is higher
than it would be otherwise.

Or by "classic fixture", did you mean one with a modern, electronic ballast
and high efficiency bulbs?

I'm slowly changing out the magnetic ballasts in my garage/shop, and it's
not unusual to find discolored paint from the ballast getting hot.

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Feb 23 20:27:58 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:27:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Re:  Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
Message-ID: <274769.93009.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 I got this information from a DOE publication that
 benchmarked a lot of different LED, CF and incandescent
 light sources:
 
  
 http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_round_5_summary_final.pdf
 
 It does not seem to mention anything about ballasts,
 though.
 I suspect that a cheapo HD fluorescent fixture will be
 quite a bit less efficient than a high-quality,
 high-efficiency model.
 
 Doug
 
 
> --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
> > To: "'shop-talk List'"
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> > Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 9:40 PM
> > > One other point:  The classic non-compact
> fluorescent
> > fixture with
> > > tube bulbs has immediate full brightness AND
> higher
> > efficiency than CFs.
> > 
> > Are you sure about that?  Those old magnetic ballasts
> > weren't very good and
> > there are still a lot of them around.  Their power
> > consumption doesn't
> > usually get included in the fixture rating; while the
> CFL
> > does.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Feb 23 20:29:11 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:29:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <008801c99629$353b6400$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <785171.59873.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here is a good treatise on fluorescent light efficiency:

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/reference/electricity/fluorescent/efficiency.html

It seems to be written for people who have to buy and maintain commercial lighting.

Doug

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Feb 23 20:59:10 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:59:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] A really off topic question......
In-Reply-To: <OFFC458318.F49CB0E3-ON85257566.007BD25C-85257566.007D504C@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1893455696.1856681235447950505.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

> You are looking for button on your remote that say "pic size" 

Or "zoom".

From nogera2 at att.net  Mon Feb 23 21:33:42 2009
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:33:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Double glass pack mufflers
Message-ID: <A215C8BEB34B4246A3A7661A63D93DB5@CARROOM>

 The glass pack muffler I have been using needs to be replaced. I'd also
like to make the exhaust note a bit quieter. If I use two 18" glass pack
mufflers end to end for a 36" long muffler, will I achieve a quieter exhaust
note ?
( I've got the room for two glass packs but not enough room for a
conventional oval muffler)

Bob Nogueira

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Feb 23 23:50:29 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:50:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <785171.59873.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090224065028.KQFA20000.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Here is a good treatise on fluorescent light efficiency:
> 
> http://nemesis.lonestar.org/reference/electricity/fluorescent/
> efficiency.html
> 
> It seems to be written for people who have to buy and 
> maintain commercial lighting.

But it still ignores the subject of ballast efficiency for conventional
fluorescents; while implicitly including it for CFLs.  

Probably you (and they) are correct, the straight tubes are more efficient.
But it bugs me when people make claims like that, without comparing apples
to apples.  

Strikes me a lot like boasting how 'green' a hydrogen or electric-powered
vehicle is, while ignoring how much CO2 was produced creating it's fuel.  To
make a real comparison, you have to compare the entire system.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 07:22:27 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:22:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Re: Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <274769.93009.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <274769.93009.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40902240622h3510c1ebuc7a976758c2fdfbd@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
>aliper_round_5_summary_final.pdf
>
>  It does not seem to mention anything about ballasts,
>  though.
>  I suspect that a cheapo HD fluorescent fixture will be
>  quite a bit less efficient than a high-quality,
>  high-efficiency model.
>

A cheapie from HD with an electronic ballast will be more effecient
than an expensive 20 year old fixture with magnetic ballasts.  And the
electronic ballast will drive T-8 tubes, while the magnetic one won't

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Feb 24 09:58:22 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:58:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <008801c99629$353b6400$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<809824.31330.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<008801c99629$353b6400$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <49A4272E.7030003@xxiii.com>

Randall wrote:
> I'm slowly changing out the magnetic ballasts in my garage/shop, and it's
> not unusual to find discolored paint from the ballast getting hot.

What do you do with the old ones? Is there any scrap metal or recycle 
value to them?

I assumed they were just a transformer and had a good bit of copper in 
them.  But having just studied up, I'm not real sure what's in 'em:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_ballast

   -Wayne

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Feb 24 10:02:35 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, J T (IT))
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:02:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A4CB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

>> That's not a problem with CFLs.  The problem here is that
>> the person who designed the socket is a moron.  I wouldn't
>> have thought you could screw up something as well defined
>> as an Edison screw base,

> I think what he means is that the silo into which the bulb
> is inserted is conical, conforming to the typical taper of
> an incandescent bulb, with a conventional Edison socket at
< the bottom, while the CF bulb tends to be more cylindrical
> in shape with the transformer at the bottom and won't fit
> all the way into the silo

Exactly what I was meaning.  The shape of the "silo" probably supports
the Edison bulb better, but the CFLs won't fit into it.

> I wouldn't consider a garage door opener to be a good application
> for CF bulbs.  When the door opens, you want the illumination
> right away, instead of having to wait a minute for a CF bulb
> to reach a reasonable brightness.

I don't really worry about the opener's light when I open the door -
it's the other times I need the light.  My opener has an "over-ride" on
the control that turns on the light.  Since I don't have other lighting
(or outlets/circuits to add additional lighting) I use the opener lights
as my work lights in the garage.  Besides saving electricity, the CFLs
should last longer - the regular bulbs tend to fail often (vibrations
possibly?).  I swapped out my regular bulb on my trouble light (hangs
from a reel on the ceiling) to a CFL years ago, and it's still going
strong.  A regular bulb would only last a short time before it would get
jolted a bit too much and fail.  And before anyone mentions it, yes,
I've used the "ruggedized" bulbs, but they really didn't last much
longer (but cost considerably more).

Anyway, that's why I want to install CFLs in my opener...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Feb 24 11:30:30 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:30:30 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A4CB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A4CB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <017101c996ad$f921a490$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Since I don't have other lighting
> (or outlets/circuits to add additional lighting) I use the opener lights
> as my work lights in the garage.  

Just a thought, could you put an adapter in the existing socket, and plug a
standalone fluorescent fixture into it?  Mount it to the opener housing, a
nearby joist, or even on chains hanging from the rafters.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Feb 24 11:43:42 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:43:42 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <49A4272E.7030003@xxiii.com>
References: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><809824.31330.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><008801c99629$353b6400$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<49A4272E.7030003@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <017501c996af$d156ce20$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> What do you do with the old ones?

Not sure if I should admit this in public, I've been just tossing them in
the trash.

>  Is there any scrap metal or recycle
> value to them?

Some, probably.  But they are potted in a very unpleasant tarry substance
and I doubt there is more than a pound of copper in each one (if it's copper
at all).  Most of the weight is probably the iron cores.

The price of scrap copper does appear to be up, it's now some $1.60/pound
... still not worth it to me to try to salvage the copper from them.  And if
I saved them up and sold them as-is to a scrap dealer for barely enough to
cover my cost of transporting them; they would probably set fire to the tar,
which would likely be just as bad as in the landfill.  That's the usual way
of recycling copper wire and so on.

Randall

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Feb 24 11:49:07 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:49:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <017101c996ad$f921a490$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <1132470137.2086621235501347498.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

That would give you a larger light source for brighter and softer illumination, both a big win.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L   1979 Caterham 7
1993 Suburban  1994 Miata C-package  2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net   
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums   http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> To: "shop-talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:30:30 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
>
> > Since I don't have other lighting
> > (or outlets/circuits to add additional lighting) I use the opener
> lights
> > as my work lights in the garage.  
> 
> Just a thought, could you put an adapter in the existing socket, and
> plug a
> standalone fluorescent fixture into it?  Mount it to the opener
> housing, a
> nearby joist, or even on chains hanging from the rafters.
> 
> Randall

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Feb 24 12:11:57 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, J T (IT))
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:11:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <017101c996ad$f921a490$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A4CB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<017101c996ad$f921a490$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A5D0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randall wrote:
>
> Just a thought, could you put an adapter in the existing
> socket, and plug a standalone fluorescent fixture into
> it?  Mount it to the opener housing, a nearby joist, or
> even on chains hanging from the rafters.

Well, yea, that would work and even be logical.  But I'm trying to go
cheap and easy...

Actually, I never figured I'd be in the house for very long, so I never
got around to it.  15 years later, and I still haven't gotten around to
setting things up properly.

I did things right in my last house - wired lots of circuits in conduits
along the walls, extra circuits on the ceiling for the many
fluorescents, etc.  Then my project was canceled, my job disappeared,
and we moved about 6 months later.  Which helps to explain why I haven't
gotten around to doing thing right in the "new" house...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Feb 24 12:29:38 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:29:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <017501c996af$d156ce20$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <197074.54368.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What's a good source of reasonably-priced well-made ballasts? I assume you are replacing magnetic ones with electronic ones.

My garage has a couple of fluorescent fixtures that each have two 8-foot high-output bulbs.  There is tons of light, but the cheapo ballasts get pretty warm.  I wonder if it is cheaper to replace just the ballasts, or just get new fixtures with better ballasts.  The fixtures themselves are quite basic, just a long skinny metal box with a couple of sockets at each end.  There is no reflector, which is OK because the ceiling is bright white.

Doug


--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
> To: "'Shop Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:43 PM
> > What do you do with the old ones?
> 
> Not sure if I should admit this in public, I've been
> just tossing them in
> the trash.
> 
> >  Is there any scrap metal or recycle
> > value to them?
> 
> Some, probably.  But they are potted in a very unpleasant
> tarry substance
> and I doubt there is more than a pound of copper in each
> one (if it's copper
> at all).  Most of the weight is probably the iron cores.
> 
> The price of scrap copper does appear to be up, it's
> now some $1.60/pound
> ... still not worth it to me to try to salvage the copper
> from them.  And if
> I saved them up and sold them as-is to a scrap dealer for
> barely enough to
> cover my cost of transporting them; they would probably set
> fire to the tar,
> which would likely be just as bad as in the landfill. 
> That's the usual way
> of recycling copper wire and so on.
> 
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Feb 24 12:43:07 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:43:07 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <017501c996af$d156ce20$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><809824.31330.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><008801c99629$353b6400$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<49A4272E.7030003@xxiii.com>
	<017501c996af$d156ce20$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <49A44DCB.4090805@hornesystemstx.com>

Just be sure that the ballasts are marked "NO PCBs" These can be thrown 
away, the ballasts that don't say that have to go to hazardous waste 
collection. Even though ballasts for the last decade or so have been PCB 
free, there are quite a few older units out there that are not.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall, On 2/24/2009 12:43 PM:
>> What do you do with the old ones?
>>     
>
> Not sure if I should admit this in public, I've been just tossing them in
> the trash.
>
>   
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1969 - Release Date: 02/24/09 06:43:00
>
>   

-- 
---
Pat Horne                              512.797.7501
Owner, Horne Systems                   pat at hornesystemstx.com
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
--We support Habitat for Humanity, a hand UP, not a hand OUT--

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Feb 24 12:43:32 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:43:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <197074.54368.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <017501c996af$d156ce20$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<197074.54368.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018f01c996b8$2d281440$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> What's a good source of reasonably-priced well-made ballasts? I assume you
> are replacing magnetic ones with electronic ones.

I don't recall the exact price offhand, but I've been getting them at Home
Depot.  Checked some other sources and HD was the best.  They do come up on
eBay from time to time, but on the rare occasions when they are what I want
(two F96T12 bulbs, 120v electronic), the prices are no better than HD.

Not a whole lot cheaper than a new fixture (there isn't much else to a
fixture), but a bit.  And installing an 8' fixture overhead by yourself is a
bit of a challenge (especially with cars and/or equipment under it), I'd
rather change the ballast.  No doubt I'd save money in the long run by
converting to T8 fixtures, but I want to use up my case of T12s first <G>

The electronic ballasts don't use the switches built into the lamp sockets,
so the wiring is a bit different.  I just join the wires together, as that's
easier than tying them back.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Feb 24 13:12:14 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:12:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A5D0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A4CB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><017101c996ad$f921a490$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A5D0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <019f01c996bc$321f9b40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Actually, I never figured I'd be in the house for very long, so I never
> got around to it.  15 years later, and I still haven't gotten around to
> setting things up properly.

I'm the same way, mostly, even though I'm pretty sure I'll still be there
for another 5-10 years.  Always something more entertaining than home
improvement.  Which is why my garage lights are all run through extension
cords <G>

But it's not hard to find cheap garage-grade fluorescent fixtures; HD,
K-mart etc frequently have a (2)F48 "shop light" complete with reflector and
hanging chains on sale for around $10 or so and a pair of bulbs shouldn't be
more than $5 or so.  I think the last one I got even came with a cord, but
if not, you should be able to scrounge an old lamp cord or similar, and run
it through a Romex clamp.  Not as cheap as a CFL, but still under $20.

And hanging by a chain generally doesn't count as a "permanent improvement",
so if you move, you can take the new fixture with you if you want.  If an
inspector hassles you, just unplug it.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Feb 24 13:15:23 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:15:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <018f01c996b8$2d281440$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <017501c996af$d156ce20$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><197074.54368.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<018f01c996b8$2d281440$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <01a001c996bc$a01887b0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I don't recall the exact price offhand, but I've been getting them at Home
> Depot.  Checked some other sources and HD was the best.  

Oops, make that "best for me".  There is a HD about a mile from my house,
which makes buying from them more attractive than Lowe's etc just because of
the distance and travel time involved.  YMMV

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Feb 24 13:38:19 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:38:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <018f01c996b8$2d281440$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <017501c996af$d156ce20$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<197074.54368.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<018f01c996b8$2d281440$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <0KFL002S8801OLG1@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

The cheap home depot 4' shoplights say they will work with either T8s 
or T12s.  Go to www.homedepot.com and search for 100253578.  I don't 
know if there are 8' lights that work on both.  I've always found 
that the 8' lights cost more than twice what the 4' ones 
do.  Probably just because the 4' lights are marketed to the 
homeowner while the 8' ones are more of a commercial item.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net


At 02:43 PM 2/24/2009, Randall wrote:
>No doubt I'd save money in the long run by
>converting to T8 fixtures, but I want to use up my case of T12s first <G>

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Feb 24 13:53:14 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, J T (IT))
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:53:14 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <019f01c996bc$321f9b40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A4CB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><017101c996ad$f921a490$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A5D0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<019f01c996bc$321f9b40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A6A0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randall wrote:
>
> Which is why my garage lights are all run through extension cords <G>

Well, I mounted a retractable hose reel for my air compressor in the
middle of the ceiling in the garage.  But the "hard lines" running to it
is still a "temporary" length of 50 foot air hose hanging from some
nails.

One of these days I'm going to do it right.

One other reason for not getting to the lights is the "project car" that
doesn't get moved on one side of the garage.  Kind of hard to install
new lights without access.

One of these days...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Feb 24 14:31:26 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:31:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <0KFL002S8801OLG1@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <658966.93714.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My lights have the "HO" type bulbs, which are almost 100 watts each, and have a special recessed 2-pin connector on each end.  I think the ballasts for those are less common (and more expensive).  The next time I go to Lowe's or HD, I'll look around.

Thanks to whoever started this thread!  I've learned a lot about fluorescent lamps the last day or so (when I should have been doing something else).

Doug


--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:

> From: Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
> To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>, "'Shop Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 3:38 PM
> The cheap home depot 4' shoplights say they will work
> with either T8s or T12s.  Go to www.homedepot.com and search
> for 100253578.  I don't know if there are 8' lights
> that work on both.  I've always found that the 8'
> lights cost more than twice what the 4' ones do. 
> Probably just because the 4' lights are marketed to the
> homeowner while the 8' ones are more of a commercial
> item.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Feb 24 15:57:12 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:57:12 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A6A0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A0F4@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><363497.40297.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A4CB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><017101c996ad$f921a490$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A5D0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><019f01c996bc$321f9b40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970299A6A0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <01ea01c996d3$3b5c7270$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> But the "hard lines" running to it
> is still a "temporary" length of 50 foot air hose hanging from some
> nails.
> 
> One of these days I'm going to do it right.

Probably the day after it breaks, and goes whipping all around <G>

I know that's how long it would wait for me!

(Actually, my retracting hose reel is still in its box, for just that
reason.  I'll run some hard lines up there Real Soon Now but until then, the
soft lines are laying the floor where I will hopefully replace them before
one breaks again.)

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Feb 24 18:00:40 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:00:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <01ea01c996d3$3b5c7270$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <857023.98867.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I got one of those 50-foot retractable hose reels a couple of years ago.  (I got a good deal at a swap meet just before packing-up time).  It has worked very well, and I am very glad I got it.

So get yours installed!

Doug 


--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
> To: "'shop-talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 5:57 PM
> 
> 
> (Actually, my retracting hose reel is still in its box, for
> just that
> reason.  I'll run some hard lines up there Real Soon
> Now but until then, the
> soft lines are laying the floor where I will hopefully
> replace them before
> one breaks again.)
> 
> Randall
> _______________________________________________

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Feb 24 20:11:19 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:11:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <857023.98867.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <857023.98867.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49A4B6D7.9070307@milleredp.com>

Doug Braun wrote:
> I got one of those 50-foot retractable hose reels a couple of years
> ago.  (I got a good deal at a swap meet just before packing-up time).
> It has worked very well, and I am very glad I got it.

I've got a 50ft hosereel and a 40ft cordreel (both Harbor Freight items) 
way up on the wall next to the door at the back of the garage.

It's very nice to have them there.  The hosereel works fine; the 
cordreel isn't all that good, but it gets the job done.

John.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Feb 24 20:48:57 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:48:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
In-Reply-To: <49A4B6D7.9070307@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <747534.78364.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a Sears work light reel (the old-skool incandescent kind) that
is about 10 years old, and a few years ago it started getting sluggish about reeling up.  I pulled out all the cord, cleaned it well, and gave the cord a coating of Armor-All.  After that treatment, it worked much better, since the cord was less likely to bind on the inside of the housing.

Doug


--- On Tue, 2/24/09, John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> wrote:

> From: John Miller <jem at milleredp.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dimmable CFLs at Home Depot
> To: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
> Cc: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>, "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 10:11 PM

> I've got a 50ft hosereel and a 40ft cordreel (both
> Harbor Freight items) way up on the wall next to the door at
> the back of the garage.
> 
> It's very nice to have them there.  The hosereel works
> fine; the cordreel isn't all that good, but it gets the
> job done.

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 14:43:04 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:43:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
In-Reply-To: <276330.37015.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0901122228020.20316@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<276330.37015.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <BAY123-W18ECED2FE253038F54F061E1AC0@phx.gbl>

Brian,

It looks like the maximum size of an object in this CAD program is 14".
Is there a way to change the scale, or are you just scaling it in your own
mind.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

'63 TR3B TCF587L

That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

See it moves!




> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:46:21 -0800
> From: battmain at yahoo.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 3d drawing package needed
>
> I've been toying with a free one from
>
> http://www.emachineshop.com/
>
> It is rather basic and I don't recall having to do so many
> steps with the autocad software I used to use in college,
> but it does do a rather nice 3-d drawing of all my
> screwups while I learn how to use it. ;p
>
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sat Feb 28 12:18:03 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:18:03 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] tube fluorescent wattage
Message-ID: <51C89075829D4511BE0F4F83C6F6978E@B50SS>

Hi shop talkers.

All that compact fluorescent and tube fluorescent discussion got me thinking
about the wattage consumed so I got the old Kill A Watt out and tested a two
tube 4' fixture with solid-state ballast and a one tube 4' fixture with a
magnetic ballast (all with 40 watt bulbs). At the time of the testing my line
voltage was 122 VAC.

Interesting results, I think. The old single tube magnetic fixture started off
with the normal flickering at about 22 watts and slowly crept up to 34 watts
consumption at full brilliance after about 30 seconds.

The twin tube solid state started off immediately at 68 and did not vary. The
fixtures consume about 85% as much wattage as the bulbs are rated. I actually
expected them to consume more than the bulbs were rated assuming some
inefficiency in the ballast, and I expected the old magnetic ballast to
consume more than the solid state one.

I always wondered what was happening power-wise when magnetic ballasts were
flickering upon startup -- they are using very little power until they warm up
and reach full-illumination.

I tested a couple compact 15 watt CFL reflector replacements for the R30
incandescent bulbs, too. They start off about 9 watts and then gradually creep
up to 13 watts after a few minutes.

Just because I had it out, I tested a half dozen old incandescent 130 volt R30
65 watt bulbs. They actually drew 57 watts which is less than the 122 line
voltage/130 VAC rating would have suggested (61 watts). They all were used so
they may draw more when new.

Just to see if my Kill A Watt was reading low, I tested a new 75 watt
incandescent, and it showed 77 watts, so I think it probably is close.

best,

doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Sat Feb 28 12:39:34 2009
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:39:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] culverts
Message-ID: <49A992F6.9070203@141.com>

Since we moved into our new house in Kentucky a few months ago I've been 
watching how rain water flows across the yard, driveway and pastures.  
In one place on the driveway the previous owners had put a culvert.  
This culvert was open on the uphill side but for some reason they 
covered up the downstream side with dirt.  Oddly enough the water 
doesn't flow over the top of the driveway like I would have expected so 
I went searching for the reason.  What I found was over the years the 
water flow has created a couple of underground passages that travel for 
5 or 6 feet (probably more) before working their way to the surface. 

We're going to be doing some grading of the land in the general area of 
where the culvert is for placement of a new shop so I'm going to have to 
find a way to extend the existing culvert maybe 20' or more.  I've 
purchased a couple of 20' plastic culverts but I unsure how to tie the 
existing steel culvert to the new plastic culvert.

Any suggestions on a means to accomplish this feat?

Thanks!

Brad

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Feb 28 12:50:10 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:50:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] tube fluorescent wattage
In-Reply-To: <51C89075829D4511BE0F4F83C6F6978E@B50SS>
Message-ID: <20090228195011.XEXC15930.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> (all with 40 watt bulbs)

Regular start, rapid start or instant start?

> Interesting results, I think.

That is interesting.  Thanks for the report.

> I actually expected them to consume 
> more than the bulbs were rated assuming some inefficiency in 
> the ballast, and I expected the old magnetic ballast to 
> consume more than the solid state one.

Me too.  But it makes sense to me that old bulbs draw less current, so I'm
still wondering how much power was actually making it to the bulbs.  That
seems to me to be the way they usually fail, apparently the bulbs lose gas
and the current drops until the ballast can no longer hold a plasma through
the tube.  For bulbs with filaments, then the filament burns out from the
ballast having to constantly restart the tube (hence the flicker of a dying
fluorescent).  Instant start bulbs just keep restarting until either the
ballast dies (from the constant restarting) or the bulb finally won't light
at all.

> I always wondered what was happening power-wise when magnetic 
> ballasts were flickering upon startup -- they are using very 
> little power until they warm up and reach full-illumination.

Depends on the bulb type, I think.  Regular start bulbs (the ones with a
separate starter to replace) should be drawing filament power; while I think
the others would be drawing nothing at all.

> Just to see if my Kill A Watt was reading low, I tested a new 
> 75 watt incandescent, and it showed 77 watts, so I think it 
> probably is close.

Agreed.  But it would be interesting to test a larger selection of new
bulbs, to see how much variation there is.  I doubt they worry much about
getting it exact.

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sat Feb 28 17:58:59 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:58:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tube fluorescent wattage
References: <20090228195011.XEXC15930.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <4B186C9EE5EA4680999B047592358030@KARL>

> Just to see if my Kill A Watt was reading low, I tested a new
> 75 watt incandescent, and it showed 77 watts, so I think it
> probably is close.

75-watt incandescent bulbs are usually labeled as 77 initial watts 
nowadays - sounds right to me.

Karl 

From nases at verizon.net  Sat Feb 28 20:19:27 2009
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:19:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tube fluorescent wattage
In-Reply-To: <20090228195011.XEXC15930.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20090228195011.XEXC15930.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <0B25C932-D23C-4F96-A42A-3E4DE26418ED@verizon.net>

Just a note to thank Randall and the rest of you frequent posters for  
all your professional responses to these posts.  I barely understand  
most of the things you folks talk about but I wanted to thank you for  
your advice.

Maybe someday, if I live long enough, I will understand some of what  
you guys already forgot.

It's mostly Greek to me but I appreciate learning what you guys  seem  
to take for common knowledge.

This is a great list and I wanted to show some appreciation for the  
knowledge that gets handed out for free.

Just a dumba$$ accountant and part time Sprite mechanic.

Can you tell anything more than simple auto wiring confuses me?

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Feb 28, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Randall wrote:

>> (all with 40 watt bulbs)
>
> Regular start, rapid start or instant start?
>
>> Interesting results, I think.
>
> That is interesting.  Thanks for the report.
>
>> I actually expected them to consume
>> more than the bulbs were rated assuming some inefficiency in
>> the ballast, and I expected the old magnetic ballast to
>> consume more than the solid state one.
>
> Me too.  But it makes sense to me that old bulbs draw less current,  
> so I'm
> still wondering how much power was actually making it to the bulbs.   
> That
> seems to me to be the way they usually fail, apparently the bulbs  
> lose gas
> and the current drops until the ballast can no longer hold a plasma  
> through
> the tube.  For bulbs with filaments, then the filament burns out  
> from the
> ballast having to constantly restart the tube (hence the flicker of  
> a dying
> fluorescent).  Instant start bulbs just keep restarting until either  
> the
> ballast dies (from the constant restarting) or the bulb finally  
> won't light
> at all.
>
>> I always wondered what was happening power-wise when magnetic
>> ballasts were flickering upon startup -- they are using very
>> little power until they warm up and reach full-illumination.
>
> Depends on the bulb type, I think.  Regular start bulbs (the ones  
> with a
> separate starter to replace) should be drawing filament power; while  
> I think
> the others would be drawing nothing at all.
>
>> Just to see if my Kill A Watt was reading low, I tested a new
>> 75 watt incandescent, and it showed 77 watts, so I think it
>> probably is close.
>
> Agreed.  But it would be interesting to test a larger selection of new
> bulbs, to see how much variation there is.  I doubt they worry much  
> about
> getting it exact.
>
> Randall