From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Dec  1 03:52:04 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:52:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shark Steamer?
References: <1590736658.7659471259470939976.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BEB60E83E8ED4DAA958C6180084D870A@mde.state.md.us>

I got one for free from the dump.  Tried using it and promptly discovered 
why it was at the dump.  Returned it to its rightful place.  Not snake oil, 
just junk.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <pethier at comcast.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 12:02 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shark Steamer?


> Anybody used these things?
>
> Snake oil or useful tool?
>
> http://www.sharksc630promo.com/?
>
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
> 1979 Caterham 7
> 1994 Miata C-package
> 2004 Suburban 8.1
> 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
> http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
> http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as opposumking at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Wed Dec  2 11:44:59 2009
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:44:59 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
Message-ID: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>

I'm planning to install some infrared 
heaters in my shop, very soon!  These are 
the square heaters that face downward and 
glow with an infrared surface.  I understand 
that most, if not all of these types of heaters 
do not require any additional venting if they
are installed in a typical shop setting.

Anyone have any experience with this?
Thanks.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Dec  2 12:20:46 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:20:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
In-Reply-To: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <235584022.9136711259781646629.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Can't help you there.  I went with an Empire through-the-wall unit and have never been sorry.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:

> From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 12:44:59 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
>
> I'm planning to install some infrared 
> heaters in my shop, very soon!  These are 
> the square heaters that face downward and 
> glow with an infrared surface.  I understand 
> that most, if not all of these types of heaters 
> do not require any additional venting if they
> are installed in a typical shop setting.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with this?
> Thanks.
> 
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Dec  2 12:41:55 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:41:55 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
In-Reply-To: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
References: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <BF23289ADBBC4B1DBFBE17944A385381@jdnet.deere.com>

> I 
> understand that most, if not all of these types of heaters do 
> not require any additional venting if they are installed in a 
> typical shop setting.

Anything that burns fuel is going to deplete oxygen, and emit various
poisonous substances, including carbon monoxide.  Studies have shown that
even levels of CO too low to cause obvious poisoning can cause permanent
brain damage.

My advice is not to rely on "typical", and make sure you have enough
ventilation for the heater you plan to use.  I've managed to give myself CO
poisoning, even with a 4 ft^2 hole in the wall.

-- Randall  

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Wed Dec  2 12:42:25 2009
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:42:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
In-Reply-To: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <C73C0321.56A8%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Steve, I've used one that is basically designed for a 2x4' drop ceiling, but
has an adaptor for a regular ceiling. I put it over our bed so we can turn
down the heat in the house at night and still be comfy without electric
heater noise. It works great and does not have any additional venting. If
you need it, I can probably dig up where I bought it.
Brian Kennedy


On 12/2/09 10:44 AM, "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA"
<gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:

> I'm planning to install some infrared
> heaters in my shop, very soon!  These are
> the square heaters that face downward and
> glow with an infrared surface.  I understand
> that most, if not all of these types of heaters
> do not require any additional venting if they
> are installed in a typical shop setting.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with this?
> Thanks.
> 
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _____

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Dec  2 13:43:40 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 15:43:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] AC for garage
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091202153533.01dcb558@cox.net>

I've always wanted to put an AC unit in my garage but so far haven't done it.
The garage is finished inside with brick on the outside and a room over it.

I now have to replace the side door, so I've been considering my options:

1. Put an AC unit in the wall.  Which I think might be the best 
solution, but I'd
     have to figure out a way to get the bricks out, put in the 
reinforcement plate,
     then cut the drywall.  Hopefully I can to this without having to 
cut any of the
     studs.

2. My current door is a wooden door that swings in.  I'm thinking 
about replacing
     it with a steel door that swings out.  The reason, is that I am 
thinking about
     cutting a hole in the door, and mounting  a window unit in the 
door.  With the
     door swinging out, I would'nt have to worry about the unit 
blocking the door
     way when I'm trying to get in or out of the garage.  I could 
make some iron
     straps to help hold it to/in the door.

3.  The other option is to try and get a portable AC unit.  Then I 
could cut a hole
      in the door for the exhaust vent.  I could make up some 
channels to allow me
      to put a cover over the hole when I'm not using the portable AC unit.

I'm wondering if anyone has used any of these methods and how it worked?

Also any pros or cons?

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Dec  2 14:41:18 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:41:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] AC for garage
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091202153533.01dcb558@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1633174772.9209921259790078040.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

There are units that come in two pieces so that you just drill a smallish hole through the wall for refrigerant lines.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 2:43:40 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: [Shop-talk] AC for garage
>
> I've always wanted to put an AC unit in my garage but so far haven't
> done it.
> The garage is finished inside with brick on the outside and a room
> over it.
> 
> I now have to replace the side door, so I've been considering my
> options:
> 
> 1. Put an AC unit in the wall.  Which I think might be the best 
> solution, but I'd
>      have to figure out a way to get the bricks out, put in the 
> reinforcement plate,
>      then cut the drywall.  Hopefully I can to this without having to
> 
> cut any of the
>      studs.
> 
> 2. My current door is a wooden door that swings in.  I'm thinking 
> about replacing
>      it with a steel door that swings out.  The reason, is that I am 
> thinking about
>      cutting a hole in the door, and mounting  a window unit in the 
> door.  With the
>      door swinging out, I would'nt have to worry about the unit 
> blocking the door
>      way when I'm trying to get in or out of the garage.  I could 
> make some iron
>      straps to help hold it to/in the door.
> 
> 3.  The other option is to try and get a portable AC unit.  Then I 
> could cut a hole
>       in the door for the exhaust vent.  I could make up some 
> channels to allow me
>       to put a cover over the hole when I'm not using the portable AC
> unit.
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone has used any of these methods and how it
> worked?
> 
> Also any pros or cons?
> 
> John
> 
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
> 
>            48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
> (B1106)
>       75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                         65 Rambler Classic
> 
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
> 
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Dec  2 15:22:55 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:22:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] AC for garage
In-Reply-To: <1633174772.9209921259790078040.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emery
	ville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091202153533.01dcb558@cox.net>
	<1633174772.9209921259790078040.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091202172044.01dda8a8@cox.net>

At 04:41 PM 12/2/2009, pethier at comcast.net wrote:

 >There are units that come in two pieces so that you just drill a 
smallish hole
 >through the wall for refrigerant lines.

Phil,

Thanks!!!  I'll look for something like that.  I hadn't thought of 
that, I guess I was
thinking that was more of a whole house unit.

My garage is about 400 sq ft.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From mbarre at juno.com  Wed Dec  2 17:19:41 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 00:19:41 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
Message-ID: <20091202.191941.29769.4@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>

We have them in our hangar at work and they are reported to "primarily heat
the floor & contents vice the air".  They seem to do the job as recovery is
pretty good after the doors are opened & closed.  Ours do have vents
though...

Matt



On 12/2/09 10:44 AM, "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA"
<gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:

> I'm planning to install some infrared
> heaters in my shop, very soon!  These are
> the square heaters that face downward and
> glow with an infrared surface.  I understand
> that most, if not all of these types of heaters
> do not require any additional venting if they
> are installed in a typical shop setting.
>
> Anyone have any experience with this?
> Thanks.
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _____
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive


____________________________________________________________
Diet Help
Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=BbSUf7LGnw0J-_dD2o7xoAAAJ1Bdm0m
GPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Dec  2 18:28:41 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 20:28:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
In-Reply-To: <20091202.191941.29769.4@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20091202.191941.29769.4@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912021728u62d0d703t8bdbb0182869f8d6@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:

> We have them in our hangar at work and they are reported to "primarily heat
> the floor & contents vice the air".  They seem to do the job as recovery is
> pretty good after the doors are opened & closed.  Ours do have vents
> though...
>
> That's a feature of radiant heating.  Comfort of humans has not a whole lot
to do with air temperature, but with the temperature of their surroundings.
 You can be quite comfortable in cold air, if there's a good radiant heat
source aimed at you.  (Think bright sunny days in winter, for instance.)  On
the other hand, I used to work in a shop with radiant heat, and it sucked.
 The nominal air temp was 62, which was fine, but what would happen is you'd
open a door, drive a cold, snow covered car in, put it on the lift, and
stand under the car.  The car got the benefit of the heater, and snow
melted, and dripped on you.  You, on the other hand, got the benefit of
amazing radiant cooling from the frozen car, and got melt water dripped down
you back.  I would have to work hard to make a heating system any less
pleasant.  It's probably not as bad with airplanes.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Wed Dec  2 20:01:13 2009
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:01:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
In-Reply-To: <BF23289ADBBC4B1DBFBE17944A385381@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
	<BF23289ADBBC4B1DBFBE17944A385381@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4B1729F9.80601@gmail.com>

I've got a ventless gas heater in an area attached to my shop ( not 
radiant though).  The major reason I would not do this again in a shop 
area or anywhere that shares "air" with the heater is that anytime you 
use any solvents or anything makes airborne particles/fumes the heater 
burns it and smells things up.  I'd vent if I do it again.

Ben.....


Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at gmail.com
Columbus, IN
1966 Triumph TR4A
1973 MG Midget
1980 Triumph TR8
2007 Mazda RX8
2002 Yamaha FZ1
2003 Honda ST1300


On 12/2/2009 2:41 PM, Randall wrote:
>> I
>> understand that most, if not all of these types of heaters do
>> not require any additional venting if they are installed in a
>> typical shop setting.
>>      
>
> Anything that burns fuel is going to deplete oxygen, and emit various
> poisonous substances, including carbon monoxide.  Studies have shown that
> even levels of CO too low to cause obvious poisoning can cause permanent
> brain damage.
>
> My advice is not to rely on "typical", and make sure you have enough
> ventilation for the heater you plan to use.  I've managed to give myself CO
> poisoning, even with a 4 ft^2 hole in the wall.
>
> -- Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Dec  2 20:22:41 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 22:22:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop & AC for garage
In-Reply-To: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
References: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <7CE5E1893DDD4AAC91A0C4857DF5A5DE@EricJRussellPC>

I installed a pair of 'ductless mini split' heat & A/C heat pumps in our 
remodeled garage with 'bonus room' above (one unit for garage/shop the other 
for the bonus room above. Both the garage & bonus room are insulated. I 
bought two 18,000 BTU units from Ramsond.
http://www.ramsond.com/minizone.php

Fairly simple to install. 3" dia hole through the wall with two copper pipes 
(insulated) & a drain line (for the A/C dehumidifier) and some 14 ga wires 
between the indoor unit and the heat pump outside. The units come 
pre-charged with refrigerant. I paid an A/C tech to evacuate the lines 
before opening the valves to start up the units but did all the installation 
myself. I ran the exterior lines through some PVC drain pipe to protect them 
and make it look 'finished'. I am pleased with the operation. They are quiet 
and heat & cool fairly quickly.

Outside units: 
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2689817330044267019MwzSIU
Inside unit: 
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2390283140044267019nPIrxI
Garage remodel album: 
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/570714378cIOpnc

The heat pump loses efficiency when outside temps get to less than 20F. The 
units I bought have built in electric heaters. Since this is not the main 
living area and such temps are infrequent here in North Carolina I don't see 
that as a major drawback.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Hammatt


> I'm planning to install some infrared heaters in my shop,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Blair"

> I've always wanted to put an AC unit in my garage but so far haven't done 
> it.
> The garage is finished inside with brick on the outside and a room over 
> it. 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Dec  3 05:22:20 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 07:22:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop & AC for garage
In-Reply-To: <7CE5E1893DDD4AAC91A0C4857DF5A5DE@EricJRussellPC>
References: <9DF4CBB8ADDA48808FA44C596BBE4FDF@DesktopPC>
	<7CE5E1893DDD4AAC91A0C4857DF5A5DE@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091203072107.01dd8c70@cox.net>

At 10:22 PM 12/2/2009, Eric J Russell wrote:

 >I installed a pair of 'ductless mini split' heat & A/C heat pumps 
in our remodeled
 >garage with 'bonus room' above (one unit for garage/shop the other for the
 >bonus room above. Both the garage & bonus room are insulated. I bought two
 >18,000 BTU units from Ramsond.
 >http://www.ramsond.com/minizone.php

Eric,

Very nice units!!!  That really looks like a very good solution!!!

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Dec  3 05:46:17 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 07:46:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] AC for garage
In-Reply-To: <4B174C99.2020703@earthlink.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091202153533.01dcb558@cox.net>
	<4B174C99.2020703@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091203074053.01deb628@cox.net>

At 12:28 AM 12/3/2009, Brian Kemp wrote:

 >John - The split system that others have described is probably 
best. Your first
 >option of the AC in the wall is probably the low cost option. I'm 
considering that
 >option, but have a stucco garage, so I just need a few minutes with 
the angle
 >grinder and a diamond blade and I have an opening.

Brian,

Yes it does, and their cost doesn't appear to be that bad, under 
$1,000.  I like
what Eric did, as my room over the garage is too cold in the winter and too
hot in the summer.  Even though it's tied to the main Heat/AC ducts.

 >I'd expect your second option would overload the door hinges and make the
 >door difficult to use.

Probably, but my thinking was it would be cheap to replace the door in the
future if I had to.

 >I have a portable AC unit we got as an easy way to cool rooms in 
our old house
 >without central air. They are less efficient than window units.....

That's the info I was looking for.  I know of 2 people that have 
them, and they
seem to like them.  In addition to their ability to cool, I don't 
know where I'd
put it when now in use.

 >The next step up in portable units is a dual hose system where it 
uses outside
 >air to cool the equipment and vent moisture. If you go portable, 
look at that
 >option.

Outstanding!!  Thanks for the input.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Dec  3 13:30:52 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:30:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
In-Reply-To: <4B1729F9.80601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <588141469.9667751259872252797.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Again, I find the Empire through-the-wall to be ideal for this application.  One 7.5" hole in the wall.  Gas flame is schematically outside the building.  The outside system takes in fresh air and exhausts combustion gasses.  The inside system takes inside air and heats it.  No solvents or gasoline fumes in the flame.  No combustion CO in my lungs.  No oxygen depletion in the building.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Ben Zwissler" <bjzwissler at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: "Ben Zwissler" <bjzwissler at gmail.com>
> To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Cc: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 9:01:13 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Heating a shop
>
> I've got a ventless gas heater in an area attached to my shop ( not 
> radiant though).  The major reason I would not do this again in a shop
> 
> area or anywhere that shares "air" with the heater is that anytime you
> 
> use any solvents or anything makes airborne particles/fumes the heater
> 
> burns it and smells things up.  I'd vent if I do it again.
> 
> Ben.....
> 
> 
> Ben Zwissler
> bjzwissler at gmail.com
> Columbus, IN
> 1966 Triumph TR4A
> 1973 MG Midget
> 1980 Triumph TR8
> 2007 Mazda RX8
> 2002 Yamaha FZ1
> 2003 Honda ST1300
> 
> 
> On 12/2/2009 2:41 PM, Randall wrote:
> >> I
> >> understand that most, if not all of these types of heaters do
> >> not require any additional venting if they are installed in a
> >> typical shop setting.
> >>      
> >
> > Anything that burns fuel is going to deplete oxygen, and emit
> various
> > poisonous substances, including carbon monoxide.  Studies have shown
> that
> > even levels of CO too low to cause obvious poisoning can cause
> permanent
> > brain damage.
> >
> > My advice is not to rely on "typical", and make sure you have
> enough
> > ventilation for the heater you plan to use.  I've managed to give
> myself CO
> > poisoning, even with a 4 ft^2 hole in the wall.
> >
> > -- Randall
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com
> >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> > http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Dec  4 13:36:26 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:36:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
Message-ID: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>

*The low-voltage thermostat that controls my cooling and my gas fired heat
unit in my shop has a low limit of 50 degrees. . . I'd like something that
would provide emergency freeze protection; something I could set at 34
degrees with a small limit to protect plumbing and chemicals from freezing .
. I searched "Grainger Supply" and didn't find one . . Can anyone offer a
suggstion?*
*Thanks.*

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Dec  4 15:56:28 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:56:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912041456w2a9bb7a5s7d898ff23e7940c8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark
<eltonclark at gmail.com>wrote:

> *The low-voltage thermostat that controls my cooling and my gas fired heat
> unit in my shop has a low limit of 50 degrees. . . I'd like something that
> would provide emergency freeze protection; something I could set at 34
> degrees with a small limit to protect plumbing and chemicals from freezing
> .
> . I searched "Grainger Supply" and didn't find one . . Can anyone offer a
> suggstion?*
> *
>

Honeywell make some that will control to 40F.  Depending on where the
thermostat is in the shop, ther things like pipes might be *much* colder.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Dec  4 15:58:47 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:58:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6B0356B55F8F44618D3C8A9E27245632@jdnet.deere.com>

If your existing switch is the old-fashioned kind that uses a bimetal
spring; you may be able to "recalibrate" it by rotating the mounting post
for the spring.

Or if it uses a bimetal spring plus a mercury switch, just mount it on the
wall crooked <G>

I did some quick searching, but everything I found either wouldn't go that
low, or cost over $100.
Here's one that will go down to 39F, though (and might be modifiable to go a
bit lower, as above)
http://www.electricsuppliesonline.com/ro20242wienc.html

-- Randall  

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Dec  4 15:30:16 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:30:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
Message-ID: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>

A few years back. I found one made by 
Dayton,  you need to be looking at industrial controls. Try McMaster.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Dec  4 16:29:50 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:29:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360912041529o1cba0120u99f217ac72ebed70@mail.gmail.com>

*Oops!  I'll try Graingers and look at "industrial", 'Preciate!*
*Tony*

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Chris Kantarjiev <cak at dimebank.com> wrote:

> A few years back. I found one made by
> Dayton,  you need to be looking at industrial controls. Try McMaster.

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Dec  4 17:01:57 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:01:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40912041456w2a9bb7a5s7d898ff23e7940c8@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
	<2400a5d40912041456w2a9bb7a5s7d898ff23e7940c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0KU500HENK69IFR0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I agree.  The temperature at the thermostat is not the same as the 
temperature in the coldest corner of the room.  I wouldn't go with 
lower than 40F.  Even at that, you could still have problems, 
depending on the actual conditions and thermostat location.  You can 
also go with electric heat tape on pipes and a light bulb in a 
cabinet for chemicals.

At 05:56 PM 12/4/2009, David Scheidt wrote:

>Honeywell make some that will control to 40F.  Depending on where the
>thermostat is in the shop, ther things like pipes might be *much* colder.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Dec  4 17:07:00 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:07:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <6B0356B55F8F44618D3C8A9E27245632@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
	<6B0356B55F8F44618D3C8A9E27245632@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912041607k6a70eaa2n8654342f4f16bbed@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> If your existing switch is the old-fashioned kind that uses a bimetal
> spring; you may be able to "recalibrate" it by rotating the mounting post
> for the spring.
>
> Or if it uses a bimetal spring plus a mercury switch, just mount it on the
> wall crooked <G>
>
> I did some quick searching, but everything I found either wouldn't go that
> low, or cost over $100.
> Here's one that will go down to 39F, though (and might be modifiable to go
> a
> bit lower, as above)
> http://www.electricsuppliesonline.com/ro20242wienc.html
>
>
I wouldn't trust a mechanical thermostat to be accurate within 5 degrees F.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Dec  4 17:08:52 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:08:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B19A494.6010901@dimebank.com>

Hmm. I can't find the exact unit I'm using, and I note that mine is line voltage instead of low 
voltage, which will probably change what you can find. McMaster has some round ones (Honeywell 
style) that go down to 40.

For freeze protection, I use the thermocube:

http://www.horse.com/Thermo-Cube-for-De-Icers-BEW19.html?email=MRHSGOOG&mr:trackingCode=2767A06B-E581-DE11-B7F3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA

Again, though, it's line voltage. I didn't know about them when I bought my expensive Dayton 
thermostat, or I would have used this.

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Fri Dec  4 17:55:26 2009
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:55:26 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <6B0356B55F8F44618D3C8A9E27245632@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <C73EEF7E.579F%kennedybc@comcast.net>

You might try installing a small heater near or in the thermostat. Nightlite
maybe? This would fool the thermostat into thinking its warmer than it
really is and a little (or a lot) trial and error might get you there.
Brian


On 12/4/09 2:58 PM, "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> If your existing switch is the old-fashioned kind that uses a bimetal
> spring; you may be able to "recalibrate" it by rotating the mounting post
> for the spring.
> 
> Or if it uses a bimetal spring plus a mercury switch, just mount it on the
> wall crooked <G>
> 
> I did some quick searching, but everything I found either wouldn't go that
> low, or cost over $100.
> Here's one that will go down to 39F, though (and might be modifiable to go a
> bit lower, as above)
> http://www.electricsuppliesonline.com/ro20242wienc.html
> 
> -- Randall  
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as kennedybc at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

-- 
Brian C. Kennedy         Cell     734 649 8548
2711 N. Maple Road    Home 734 994 5205
Ann Arbor, MI 48103  Fax     734 661 5108
Email kennedybc at comcast.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Dec  4 18:13:48 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:13:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Soda blasting development
Message-ID: <955513.54328.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I noticed in a flyer that Harbor Freight retail stores have started carrying soda blasters and soda.

Their baster units look sort of wimpy, but now it is possible for my to buy soda for for my blaster locally locally, without having to pay a lot of shipping.

Doug

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Dec  4 19:13:30 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:13:30 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40912041607k6a70eaa2n8654342f4f16bbed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com><6B0356B55F8F44618D3C8A9E27245632@jdnet.deere.com>
	<2400a5d40912041607k6a70eaa2n8654342f4f16bbed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9471B72AD0C34667A005A31D254F12B4@jdnet.deere.com>

> I wouldn't trust a mechanical thermostat to be accurate 
> within 5 degrees F.

OTOH, what is needed here is repeatability, and it should be better than
that.  I'm still using a mechanical for home heating, and the combination of
the mechanical thermostat & mechanical thermometer seems to be repeatable
within 1 degree F (with the load sensing disabled).

There's a lot more temperature variation than that between where the
thermostat is mounted, and the pipes/containers are.

-- Randall  

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Dec  4 21:56:52 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:56:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <0KU500HENK69IFR0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <862160.47919.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In my previous house, a pipe leading to a bathroom sink could freeze on a very
cold winter night even though the bathroom was fairly new, with standard
construction, and heated to a normal room temperature.

Doug

--- On Fri,
12/4/09, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:

> From: Steven
Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] thermostats
> To:
"Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Friday, December 4, 2009,
7:01 PM
> I agree.  The temperature at the
> thermostat is not the same as the
temperature in the coldest
> corner of the room.  I wouldn't go with lower
than
> 40F.  Even at that, you could still have problems,
> depending on the
actual conditions and thermostat
> location.  You can also go with electric
heat tape on
> pipes and a light bulb in a cabinet for chemicals.

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Dec  4 22:21:42 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:21:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360912041236s5a49dd98rf9656cd8e9580015@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2072010248.10294641259990502757.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I'm not sure what the problem is here, Tony.  My thermostat only goes down to 50 and it's costing me darn near nothing to maintain 50 in Minnesota.  Should be a walk in the park for Sherman Texas.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
> To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 4, 2009 2:36:26 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: [Shop-talk] thermostats
>
> *The low-voltage thermostat that controls my cooling and my gas fired
> heat
> unit in my shop has a low limit of 50 degrees. . . I'd like something
> that
> would provide emergency freeze protection; something I could set at
> 34
> degrees with a small limit to protect plumbing and chemicals from
> freezing .

From arvidj at visi.com  Sat Dec  5 07:40:07 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:40:07 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Soda blasting development
References: <955513.54328.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AB6F745817DB46CDB55912F3D3885042@behavioral.com>

It comes in two flavors - a 10lb and a 15lb version.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=65902

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66742

It looks like the 10lb version is on sale but the ubiquitous 20% off coupons 
might make the larger one a reasonable alternative.

I have the 15lb version. It looks like the results of a "what to do with an 
empty fire extinguisher" email thread. Filling it is interesting as the soda 
needs to go in via the small neck at the top. I loosen the nut at the top of 
the main canister and remove the entire black assembly. Someone in the 
Harbor Freight engineering department was bright enough to include cheap 
quick disconnects for the orange air hose between the regulator and the 
black assembly so removal is relatively easy. I then fill the canister thru 
the little hole in the top and then put everything back.

Once I got it adjusted it did what I wanted it to do. My experience is that 
"less soda" is better than "more soda" but YMMV. Once adjusted it seem to go 
about 15 minutes before needing to be refilled.

I suspect that if you use it indoors the soda will be a mess unless it is 
used in a cabinet. A duh! conclusion and no personal experience in that 
area. I do know that if you use it outdoors and enough of the soda gets on 
the lawn the grass will not be happy and this plant life unhappiness will be 
transformed to animal life SWMBO unhappiness over time.

If I ever wear out the ceramic nozzle it might be a challenge to get a new 
one via Harbor Freight parts but I don't use it that much that I am 
concerned about it.

All in all, I only needed to do a small amount of soda blasting, didn't have 
a cabinet blaster that I could easily convert over to soda [though I do have 
this sand blaster 
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_7960_7960 
and they do make a "soda conversion kit" that is $150], and didn't want to 
hassle with getting all of the parts together to make my own, so I though it 
was a reasonable investment.

Arvid

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
To: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:13 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Soda blasting development


> Hello,
>
> I noticed in a flyer that Harbor Freight retail stores have started 
> carrying soda blasters and soda.
>
> Their baster units look sort of wimpy, but now it is possible for my to 
> buy soda for for my blaster locally locally, without having to pay a lot 
> of shipping.
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as arvidj at visi.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  5 08:43:39 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:43:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail sight from a rifle...the follow-up
Message-ID: <003BF37C446F405BB0FE108D6BEF1905@Digilink1>

My thanks to all who contributed ideas. Let me summarize the good advice I
got.



1)    Check to see if the sight has a taper..I had overlooked this
possibility...when I check I found that the groove was not tapered but the
sight WAS. This meant that it only came out one way.

2)    Shoot the gun and warm the barrel...since the range is about a mile
from my work bench this wasn't practical but I did have an electric heat gun
which accomplished the same thing.

3)    Use Kroil

4)    Alternate between heating and leaving it in the freezer overnight.

5)    More Kroil

6)    More heat

7)    Hit it a few time

8)    More Kroil

9)    More heat

10)                      Etc..etc..



Someone else suggested CRC's "Freeze Off" which is a penetrant that supper
cools the part...



So after about 5 days of following this ritual it was ready to give it my
best shot..



I heated the barrel from the bottom..I hit the sight with Freeze Off and put
the brass punch of the proper side of the sight and gave it a mighty whack!
Nothing...I gave it another spray and gave it a mightier whack...still
nothing ..I tied once more with the same result.



So I decided I didn't want to screw it up so I took it out of the vice and
headed to the gunsmith at Gander Mtn. Two minutes and $20 later the sight
was out.



The moral to the story? Sometimes you can do all the proper things and they
don't work and that is when it is time to bite the bullet (pun intended) and
turn the job over to the "pros" (especially before you really screw things
up beyond repair...)



I am sure all the things I did probably made it easier for him, but it is
often knowing just where to hit and how hard, based on years of experience.



Thanks to all



Gerry Brazil

From marka at maracing.com  Sat Dec  5 14:04:54 2009
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 16:04:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail sight from a rifle...the
 follow-up
In-Reply-To: <003BF37C446F405BB0FE108D6BEF1905@Digilink1>
References: <003BF37C446F405BB0FE108D6BEF1905@Digilink1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0912051604350.28174@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> So I decided I didn't want to screw it up so I took it out of the vice and
> headed to the gunsmith at Gander Mtn. Two minutes and $20 later the sight
> was out.

What'd he do that you weren't doing?

Mark

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Dec  5 22:47:38 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 21:47:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail sight from a rifle...the
 follow-up
In-Reply-To: <003BF37C446F405BB0FE108D6BEF1905@Digilink1>
References: <003BF37C446F405BB0FE108D6BEF1905@Digilink1>
Message-ID: <675B35C4AB1A417092D976E9A1E12F12@hpa1477c>

Gerry,

How did the Pro get it off?

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Gerald Brazil
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:44 AM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing a dove tail sight from a rifle...the follow-up

My thanks to all who contributed ideas. Let me summarize the good advice I
got.



1)    Check to see if the sight has a taper..I had overlooked this
possibility...when I check I found that the groove was not tapered but the
sight WAS. This meant that it only came out one way.

2)    Shoot the gun and warm the barrel...since the range is about a mile
from my work bench this wasn't practical but I did have an electric heat gun
which accomplished the same thing.

3)    Use Kroil

4)    Alternate between heating and leaving it in the freezer overnight.

5)    More Kroil

6)    More heat

7)    Hit it a few time

8)    More Kroil

9)    More heat

10)                      Etc..etc..



Someone else suggested CRC's "Freeze Off" which is a penetrant that supper
cools the part...



So after about 5 days of following this ritual it was ready to give it my
best shot..



I heated the barrel from the bottom..I hit the sight with Freeze Off and put
the brass punch of the proper side of the sight and gave it a mighty whack!
Nothing...I gave it another spray and gave it a mightier whack...still
nothing ..I tied once more with the same result.



So I decided I didn't want to screw it up so I took it out of the vice and
headed to the gunsmith at Gander Mtn. Two minutes and $20 later the sight
was out.



The moral to the story? Sometimes you can do all the proper things and they
don't work and that is when it is time to bite the bullet (pun intended) and
turn the job over to the "pros" (especially before you really screw things
up beyond repair...)



I am sure all the things I did probably made it easier for him, but it is
often knowing just where to hit and how hard, based on years of experience.



Thanks to all



Gerry Brazil
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Dec  6 11:09:27 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 13:09:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm off again (off topic)
Message-ID: <OF05449BA6.DA15A204-ON85257684.0063FA26-85257684.00641F33@mail.megageek.com>

Since many of you guys were so supportive when I was in Iraq, I thought 
that I'd drop you all a note to say that I'm in Afghanistan and I don't 
know when I'll be back.

If any of you are having problems sleeping, you can always read my blog 
about my adventures here...

http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2009afg.nsf

Let me know what you think!

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Dec  6 13:50:06 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 15:50:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm off again (off topic)
In-Reply-To: <OF05449BA6.DA15A204-ON85257684.0063FA26-85257684.00641F33@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF05449BA6.DA15A204-ON85257684.0063FA26-85257684.00641F33@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091206154831.01dcc730@cox.net>

At 01:09 PM 12/6/2009, eric at megageek.com wrote:

 >Since many of you guys were so supportive when I was in Iraq, I thought
 >that I'd drop you all a note to say that I'm in Afghanistan and I don't
 >know when I'll be back.

Moose,

Man, they keep you hoping!   Good luck and keep you head down!

We'll keep you in our prayers.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From fortee9er at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  6 15:24:55 2009
From: fortee9er at yahoo.com (Jorge Garcia)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:24:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem
Message-ID: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

The Craftsman (1/2 hp) garage door opener in my garage is suddenly not working. It makes clicking noises but the chain doesn't move. I don't know if weather has anything to do with it but it started a couple of days ago when we experienced snow and the temperature has not risen beyond 50 F. While this unusual for Houston I am sure that the Sears did not make it with warm weather in mind. The opener did work one day when the temperatures had risen and the sun was out. The garage is detached and not insulated.
Please let me know how I can troubleshoot this problem.
Thanks
Jorge

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Dec  6 16:45:40 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 15:45:40 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem
In-Reply-To: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B1C4224.8010102@comcast.net>

Sounds like the gears may be stripped.  Open it up and take a look; you 
should be able to get a repair kit from Sears.

bs


Jorge Garcia wrote:
> The Craftsman (1/2 hp) garage door opener in my garage is suddenly not working. It makes clicking noises but the chain doesn't move. I don't know if weather has anything to do with it but it started a couple of days ago when we experienced snow and the temperature has not risen beyond 50 F. While this unusual for Houston I am sure that the Sears did not make it with warm weather in mind. The opener did work one day when the temperatures had risen and the sun was out. The garage is detached and not insulated.
> Please let me know how I can troubleshoot this problem.
> Thanks
> Jorge
>   


-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Dec  6 17:20:26 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 16:20:26 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem
In-Reply-To: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20091207002027048.VDVC5818@cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com>

> Please let me know how I can troubleshoot this problem.

I'm by no means an expert (my garage uses the old Armstrong method), but I'd
start by disconnecting the opener from the door and see if the door is
binding and the opener works without the load.

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Dec  6 17:49:19 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:49:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem
References: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4B1C4224.8010102@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <FAB524EF71804D8B8AC250056C1D7698@KARL>

If didn't work when it was cold, then worked again later when it was warmer, 
I really doubt that it's stripped gears.

Electrical / electronic issue ?  If it clicks but doesn't run, perhaps a 
sticky relay, maybe distorting a bit with the cold weather ??

Karl





> Sounds like the gears may be stripped.  Open it up and take a look; you 
> should be able to get a repair kit from Sears.
>
> bs
>
>
> Jorge Garcia wrote:
>> The Craftsman (1/2 hp) garage door opener in my garage is suddenly not 
>> working. It makes clicking noises but the chain doesn't move. I don't 
>> know if weather has anything to do with it but it started a couple of 
>> days ago when we experienced snow and the temperature has not risen 
>> beyond 50 F. While this unusual for Houston I am sure that the Sears did 
>> not make it with warm weather in mind. The opener did work one day when 
>> the temperatures had risen and the sun was out. The garage is detached 
>> and not insulated.
>> Please let me know how I can troubleshoot this problem.
>> Thanks
>> Jorge

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec  6 18:02:50 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:02:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem
In-Reply-To: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912061702w4927ba7ew127b807c93169818@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Jorge Garcia <fortee9er at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The Craftsman (1/2 hp) garage door opener in my garage is suddenly not
> working. It makes clicking noises but the chain doesn't move. I don't know
> if weather has anything to do with it but it started a couple of days ago
> when we experienced snow and the temperature has not risen beyond 50 F.
> While this unusual for Houston I am sure that the Sears did not make it with
> warm weather in mind. The opener did work one day when the temperatures had
> risen and the sun was out. The garage is detached and not insulated.
> Please let me know how I can troubleshoot this problem.
> Thanks
> Jorge
>

take the cover off and look at the gears.  the gear train on these things is
plastic.  They break.   You'll see lots of white plastic shavings.  There
are a number of kits you can get.  Some consist of just the drive gear (The
motor drives a worm gear, which drives a gear on the vertical shaft that
drives the chain).  Some have the drive gear, the worm, and assorted
hardware.  The one you want is the worm gear, the whole shaft (assembled),
some hardware, and grease.  It's about 30 or 40 bucks directly from sears
(you can get it cheaper.).

If that's not what's wrong, there are a set of screws that control the
amount of force that it can produce before hitting a limit.  You could
increase them.  But also check that there isn't something wrong with the
mechanics of the door.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Dec  6 18:46:40 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:46:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem
In-Reply-To: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OF4F65DBA4.C1B14F1E-ON85257685.00098F5F-85257685.000A250D@mail.megageek.com>

I would say that the door might have been frozen when you tried to open it 
when it was cold.  A gear may have broken or stripped out (or maybe just 
few teeth off of a gear.)  The reason that it worked once more might have 
been that the door was stopped in a place where the gear could get a bite 
few times, but now it's worn completely out.

I would disconnect the door and see if the opener works without it on it.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



Jorge Garcia <fortee9er at yahoo.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/06/2009 06:16 PM

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem






The Craftsman (1/2 hp) garage door opener in my garage is suddenly not 
working. It makes clicking noises but the chain doesn't move. I don't know 
if weather has anything to do with it but it started a couple of days ago 
when we experienced snow and the temperature has not risen beyond 50 F. 
While this unusual for Houston I am sure that the Sears did not make it 
with warm weather in mind. The opener did work one day when the 
temperatures had risen and the sun was out. The garage is detached and not 
insulated.
Please let me know how I can troubleshoot this problem.
Thanks
Jorge
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec  6 18:54:08 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:54:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage door opener problem
In-Reply-To: <FAB524EF71804D8B8AC250056C1D7698@KARL>
References: <198351.71148.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4B1C4224.8010102@comcast.net> <FAB524EF71804D8B8AC250056C1D7698@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912061754o16c468bfwa15da1d5b2664083@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> If didn't work when it was cold, then worked again later when it was
> warmer, I really doubt that it's stripped gears.
>
> Electrical / electronic issue ?  If it clicks but doesn't run, perhaps a
> sticky relay, maybe distorting a bit with the cold weather ??
>
>
 I'd have been doubtful of that, too, except that exactly this has happened
to two of ours.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Dec  7 09:45:16 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:45:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
Message-ID: <C24796F6-859E-4207-BF59-92AA75ED0CD5@groupwbench.org>

The house I just rented has a covered and walled carport as a  
"garage". I have permission to insulate/sheetrock/wire it to be usable  
as a winter motorcycle repair facility for my neglected children. The  
floor is a mix of earth and gravel, and much of the structure rests  
right on the earth.

Are there any cheap and easy options for getting a harder and flatter  
floor for something that will be infested with termites in a few  
years? It needs to support a car during snowstorms. It's 600 square  
feet so even cheap cast concrete pavers will be out of budget, which  
is about 50 cents/sf. I'm not hoping for much...

thanks,
jim

From halfnights at shaw.ca  Mon Dec  7 13:03:11 2009
From: halfnights at shaw.ca (Art Halfnights)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:03:11 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <0553CE82208F455682F05DAE07877614@arte58a2370e18>

Howdy   the relay is probably the clicking but not connecting the power.  If
warmer makes it work then run a 100 watt bulb close and try warming it up.
Also if there was a problem with the gears being stripped the motor should
still run and maked a motor noise.  Art Halfnights Maple Ridge B.C. Canada

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 16:35:33 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:35:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <C24796F6-859E-4207-BF59-92AA75ED0CD5@groupwbench.org>
References: <C24796F6-859E-4207-BF59-92AA75ED0CD5@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <ea2385360912071535n10eaa9e6saa1248a64409d53a@mail.gmail.com>

*Jim,*
*Do a complete search on "Google" or "Bing" for "soil cement".*
*A power tiller and a few bags of cement and you have a usable garage
floor.  A friend did a airport hanger floor and it was most usable . . he
had a small "dusting" problem which he solved by spraying on a coat of
"boiled" linseed oil*.  *They used the process to build airstrips in Nam and
they build county roads this way in some areas . . (with huge Rotavator
"Tillers")*
*Tony in Texas*


On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>wrote:

> The house I just rented has a covered and walled carport as a "garage". I
> have permission to insulate/sheetrock/wire it to be usable as a winter
> motorcycle repair facility for my neglected children. The floor is a mix of
> earth and gravel, and much of the structure rests right on the earth.
>
> Are there any cheap and easy options for getting a harder and flatter floor
> for something that will be infested with termites in a few years? It needs
> to support a car during snowstorms. It's 600 square feet so even cheap cast
> concrete pavers will be out of budget, which is about 50 cents/sf. I'm not
> hoping for much...
>
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Dec  9 09:58:12 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:58:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360912071535n10eaa9e6saa1248a64409d53a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C24796F6-859E-4207-BF59-92AA75ED0CD5@groupwbench.org>
	<ea2385360912071535n10eaa9e6saa1248a64409d53a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0FB9322E-BD9D-4E73-9114-6BA6BFBA7D9A@groupwbench.org>

Soil cement looks like a neat idea, but too labor and time intensive  
for this rental place. For all the work, I'd chip in a few more bucks  
to just get a real slab. I'll likely leave the car on the earth and  
build a raised perimeter platform from wood for the shelves, toolboxes  
and bikes.

thanks,
jim

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Dec  9 11:42:49 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:42:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <0FB9322E-BD9D-4E73-9114-6BA6BFBA7D9A@groupwbench.org>
References: <C24796F6-859E-4207-BF59-92AA75ED0CD5@groupwbench.org>
	<ea2385360912071535n10eaa9e6saa1248a64409d53a@mail.gmail.com>
	<0FB9322E-BD9D-4E73-9114-6BA6BFBA7D9A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <0KUE003FYEPRLOA0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Ever hear of  polypavement?  Check out their site:  www.polypavement.com.

Go to the "application methods" page and you will see different ways 
to do this, some without much labor.  I have never used this stuff, 
but I filed it away as something that would be cool to try in the 
right situation.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 11:58 AM 12/9/2009, Jim Franklin wrote:
>Soil cement looks like a neat idea, but too labor and time intensive
>for this rental place.

From mikey at b2systems.com  Wed Dec  9 12:45:37 2009
From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:45:37 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <0KUE003FYEPRLOA0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <C24796F6-859E-4207-BF59-92AA75ED0CD5@groupwbench.org>
	<ea2385360912071535n10eaa9e6saa1248a64409d53a@mail.gmail.com>
	<0FB9322E-BD9D-4E73-9114-6BA6BFBA7D9A@groupwbench.org>
	<0KUE003FYEPRLOA0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <1260387937.2966.172.camel@WebBrowser>

 Oooh, I like it.  pretty expensive but we have a 300sq.ft. patch of
dirt that the wife likes to park on and when it rains its messy, this
would solve the problem.  Going to show this to the wife.

 And yeah, concrete would be nice but we already have enough concrete to
land a 747 and she likes to park in this corner where it was decided
that it would cosmetically be too much concrete if we did that corner
also.  Hey, I can live with that, she leaves my garage alone.

	mike

On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 13:42 -0500, Steven Trovato wrote:
> Ever hear of  polypavement?  Check out their site:  www.polypavement.com.
> 
> Go to the "application methods" page and you will see different ways 
> to do this, some without much labor.  I have never used this stuff, 
> but I filed it away as something that would be cool to try in the 
> right situation.
> 
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net
> 
> At 11:58 AM 12/9/2009, Jim Franklin wrote:
> >Soil cement looks like a neat idea, but too labor and time intensive
> >for this rental place.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as mikey at b2systems.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Dec  9 12:54:14 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:54:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <0FB9322E-BD9D-4E73-9114-6BA6BFBA7D9A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <47846809.12077471260388454146.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I'd suggest you put down a vapor barrior.  Some really heavy poly with a bit of fine gravel on top to hold it down.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

> From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2009 10:58:12 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
>
> Soil cement looks like a neat idea, but too labor and time intensive 
> 
> for this rental place. For all the work, I'd chip in a few more bucks 
> 
> to just get a real slab. I'll likely leave the car on the earth and  
> build a raised perimeter platform from wood for the shelves, toolboxes
>  
> and bikes.
> 
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Dec  9 14:56:48 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:56:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
Message-ID: <200912092156.nB9Lum9J006937@moose.dimebank.com>

>  Oooh, I like it.  pretty expensive but we have a 300sq.ft. patch of
> dirt that the wife likes to park on and when it rains its messy, this
> would solve the problem.  Going to show this to the wife.

Put down permeable pavers, not soil cement! 

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Dec  9 16:27:57 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:27:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Butt Weld Strength
Message-ID: <COL115-W24BA14EAE7DAFB16F96057CC8E0@phx.gbl>

As I think I have noted here before, I am in the midst of building a
rotisserie for my Sunbeam Alpine, using a pair of Heavy Duty Harbor Freight
Engine Stands as the basic building block for the stand itself. (An Alpine
shell weighs around 1000lbs; the HF stands are rated for 2000lbs each.)   If I
had it to do over again, I would build the whole thing from scratch, but it is
too late to go down that path and I did get a great buy on the stands ($80
each) last Christmas.

Id do it from scratch next time because the stands themselves require more
modification than I counted on.  I always had to make a custom jig for
attaching the stand to the car, but there are changes I need to make to the
stands themselves.  One of those modifications involves lengthening the main
column by welding in an 18 extension.  My original plan was to cut the stand
a few inches above the base (done) and weld in a piece of larger diameter
square tube placed over the stub still remaining on the stand.  (Hopefully,
that makes sense.)  Then, Id put the original piece inside the new tube, down
far enough to put a bolt through it for extra strength just in case, and then
weld everything together.

The problem with that plan is that the outside diameter of the tube on the
stand doesnt match up well with a stock inside diameter on a larger piece of
square tubing.  I am not near the pieces at the moment, but I think the OD on
the HF stand is 2 <, while the closest ID tube I can find is 2 =.  I have
some 2 x 1/8 stock that I can weld to all four sides of the original tube
and make it fit perfectly, but I am wondering if I would be better off just
buying some 2 < stock and butt welding it in between the base and the
original top of the stand?  I could always grind the butt welds flat and weld
some of the 1/8 stock over it for extra strength, if needed.

I will probably have other questions as I get a little farther into this, but
this is a pretty fundamental fork in the road.  For what is worth, I already
have the 2 = ID tube and the 1/8 stock, so it is probably easiest for me to
stay with the original plan.  But, structural integrity is my #1 concern and I
would be happy to change my plans if that would be better.

As always, thanks in advance!
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&slideid=1
&media=aero-shake-7second&listid=1&stop=1&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-U
S:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009

From jmitch at snet.net  Wed Dec  9 19:55:13 2009
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:55:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
Message-ID: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>

    I just received a new Ingersoll Rand compressor which in 220V single 
phase.  The problem is the box has only 2 wiring connections, L1 and 
L2.  There's also a greenish screw at the back of the box, which I 
assume is for the bare ground wire.  So where does the neutral wire go?  
The instructions are pretty useless.   John Mitchell

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Dec  9 20:33:09 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:33:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <200912092156.nB9Lum9J006937@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200912092156.nB9Lum9J006937@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <0KUF00J0V37M8J60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

By permeable pavers do you mean those waffle like things with grass 
growing through them?  Most of the ones I see are just dead grass 
holders.  Plan to park there every day?  Grass doesn't really like 
the under-car environment.  Besides that, I really don't know what 
the problem is.  I just haven't seen very many that end up looking at 
all attractive.  I did use regular pavers for a section of driveway 
at my house to break up the look of so much pavement.  I guess one 
would have to see the actual area to decide what would be most 
appropriate.  What might work in suburbia might look stupid on a 
farmhouse.  And vice-versa, of course.

At 04:56 PM 12/9/2009, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
>Put down permeable pavers, not soil cement!

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Dec  9 20:49:38 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:49:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
In-Reply-To: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>
References: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>
Message-ID: <0KUF008HL3YT9J21@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

The neutral goes nowhere.  A 220V load just needs the two wires.  If 
an appliance also wants to run something on 110V, then it requires a 
neutral.  This is common when 220V is used for something like a 
heating element and control electronics, light, clock, etc run on 
110V.  Just stick a wire nut on the extra wire and leave it 
unconnected.  You still need the bare wire connected to the green 
screw, but that only comes into play as a safety device when 
something goes wrong.  The motor itself is running on the two wires 
attached to L1 and L2.

At 09:55 PM 12/9/2009, John Mitchell wrote:
>    I just received a new Ingersoll Rand compressor which in 220V 
> single phase.  The problem is the box has only 2 wiring 
> connections, L1 and L2.  There's also a greenish screw at the back 
> of the box, which I assume is for the bare ground wire.  So where 
> does the neutral wire go?

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Dec  9 21:46:20 2009
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:46:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
In-Reply-To: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>
References: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0912092341580.8683@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, John Mitchell wrote:
>   I just received a new Ingersoll Rand compressor which in 220V single 
> phase.  The problem is the box has only 2 wiring connections, L1 and L2. 
> There's also a greenish screw at the back of the box, which I assume is 
> for the bare ground wire.  So where does the neutral wire go?  The 
> instructions are pretty useless.  John Mitchell

I'm not an electrician but...

Sounds to me like its a normal straight 220vac motor.  It takes 110vac on 
one line and 110vac on the other line (making 220vac).  The green screw is 
for the safety ground.  Since there are no 110vac loads in the compressor, 
there's no need for a neutral wire.

If you're running new wire, just run standard /2 wire in whatever guage 
you need for the amperage.  If you have an existing wire run, I'd leave 
the neutral wire disconnected (and taped/wire nutted over to prevent a 
short to something else).  If you have an existing outlet, just connect 
nothing to the neutral leg on the plug.

Again, not an electrician, but that's what I'd do in my own house.

Mark

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Dec  9 23:18:45 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:18:45 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <0KUF00J0V37M8J60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <200912092156.nB9Lum9J006937@moose.dimebank.com>
	<0KUF00J0V37M8J60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4B2092C5.8030608@dimebank.com>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> By permeable pavers do you mean those waffle like things with grass 
> growing through them? 

That's one variety, but mostly I mean pavers that have a gap designed into the interlock, so water 
can drain through them.

From shiples at comcast.net  Thu Dec 10 09:50:57 2009
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:50:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <0KUF00J0V37M8J60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <200912092156.nB9Lum9J006937@moose.dimebank.com>
	<200912092156.nB9Lum9J006937@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20091210083543.035e99e8@mail.comcast.net>

At 10:33 PM 12/9/2009 -0500, Steven Trovato wrote:
>By permeable pavers do you mean those waffle like things with grass 
>growing through them?  Most of the ones I see are just dead grass 
>holders.  Plan to park there every day?  Grass doesn't really like the 
>under-car environment.

I used these for my driveway and I like them because it makes it possible 
to park on a lawn.  To keep them looking good you need to take good care of 
the grass.

What ruins the look is to leave a car parked in the driveway.  Or a coolant 
leak.

My driveway looks good when my daily driver is parked there overnight and 
the grass is kept up.  What ruins it is drought and project cars left for 
more than a couple weeks.  Then you are faced with replanting 50 little 3x3 
patches of grass.  I've had this stuff for 20 years and some years it has 
lots of dead patches.  But you replant in spring and it looks great until 
you abuse it.   It has a downside but I still prefer it over a concrete slab.

>  Besides that, I really don't know what the problem is.  I just haven't 
> seen very many that end up looking at all attractive.  I did use regular 
> pavers for a section of driveway at my house to break up the look of so 
> much pavement.  I guess one would have to see the actual area to decide 
> what would be most appropriate.  What might work in suburbia might look 
> stupid on a farmhouse.  And vice-versa, of course.
>
>At 04:56 PM 12/9/2009, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
>>Put down permeable pavers, not soil cement!
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as shiples at comcast.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Dec 10 12:13:47 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:13:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20091210083543.035e99e8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <322852.88328.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

There's also a system using hard plastic gratings with about a 2" x 2"
spacing, where the vertical slats are rather thin.  With these, a smaller
percentage of the grass-growing area is covered by the material, and they
can
become almost invisible if the grass is allowed to grow above the top surface.
Doug

--- On Thu, 12/10/09, Steve Shipley <shiples at comcast.net> wrote:

>
From: Steve Shipley <shiples at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Options
for carport floor?
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Thursday, December
10, 2009, 11:50 AM
> At 10:33 PM 12/9/2009 -0500, Steven
> Trovato wrote:
>
>By permeable pavers do you mean those waffle like
> things with grass 
>
>growing through them?  Most of the ones I see are
> just dead grass 
>
>holders.  Plan to park there every day? 
> Grass doesn't really like the 
>
>under-car environment.
> 
> I used these for my driveway and I like them
because it
> makes it possible 
> to park on a lawn.  To keep them looking
good you need
> to take good care of 
> the grass.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 10 13:48:20 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:48:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
References: <322852.88328.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AE4BB32520CE41C59FD08A59D3765FD9@KARL>

Fiberglass gratings are used as catwalks and as floor grids to keep feet off 
of wet floors in chemical plants, etc.  Those gratings look as you describe, 
and are wonderful for stabilizing grass areas for traffic.  They truly 
disappear in the grass, but increase the load-bearing capability of the 
ground very well.

Buying them new, they're incredibly expensive, but if you can get them used, 
it's a wonderful solution.  Wish I could find some for the grass in front of 
my hangar.

Karl



> There's also a system using hard plastic gratings with about a 2" x 2"
> spacing, where the vertical slats are rather thin.  With these, a smaller
> percentage of the grass-growing area is covered by the material, and they
> can
> become almost invisible if the grass is allowed to grow above the top 
> surface.
> Doug

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 10 18:08:19 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:08:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
Message-ID: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>

Today's Hemmings weekly newsletter had the following article on a new
copper-coated aluminum battery cable material from Accel.  The aluminum cable
is said to conduct as much current as a similar gauge of copper, because the
aluminum is copper-coated, and (they assert) "as with any electrical cable,
the current flows over the surface of the strands, not through them".  If this
is true, why then doesn't stranded wire carry far more current than
similar-gauge solid wire ??  Lots more surface area.

The article follows.

Karl


ACCEL introduces lightweight battery cable
Racers are always on the lookout for new ways to shave mass from their
machines, looking for even a small advantage over the other guy. Recently, at
the SEMA show in Las Vegas, ACCEL rolled out one of its newest techniques for
saving a few pounds: Lightning Cable. The name is a clever play, as these
cables offer the benefit of lightening combined with excellent electrical
current flow.

The design of the cable itself is fairly clever as well. Typical battery cable
is made from copper strands for superior conductivity, but copper is
significantly heavier than aluminum, though aluminum cant provide the same
quality of current flow. ACCELs solution was to use aluminum strands coated
with copper, since, as with any electrical cable, the current flows over the
surface of the strands, not through them. The result is a battery cable that
weighs half as much as similar gauge copper without sacrificing performance.

Lightning Cable is offered in 1/0-, 2- and 4-gauge wire thickness and is
available with trick compression terminals that fasten by inserting the
stripped end of the cable into the fitting and then threading the fitting into
the terminal. Heat-shrink wrap is also offered to finish off cable assemblies.
For more information, go to www.accel-ignition.com

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 10 18:21:57 2009
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:21:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0912092341580.8683@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>,
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0912092341580.8683@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W23D14337A7484F9951F4D7E18C0@phx.gbl>

I would look at the three conductor wire for a new installation and then use
the wire nut or tape on it.

The cost difference might not be that much and maybe the next item you place
there will want 110v.


Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
'63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!




> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:46:20 -0500
> From: marka at maracing.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
>
> Howdy,
>
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, John Mitchell wrote:
> > I just received a new Ingersoll Rand compressor which in 220V single
> > phase. The problem is the box has only 2 wiring connections, L1 and L2.
> > There's also a greenish screw at the back of the box, which I assume is
> > for the bare ground wire. So where does the neutral wire go? The
> > instructions are pretty useless. John Mitchell
>
> I'm not an electrician but...
>
> Sounds to me like its a normal straight 220vac motor. It takes 110vac on
> one line and 110vac on the other line (making 220vac). The green screw is
> for the safety ground. Since there are no 110vac loads in the compressor,
> there's no need for a neutral wire.
>
> If you're running new wire, just run standard /2 wire in whatever guage
> you need for the amperage. If you have an existing wire run, I'd leave
> the neutral wire disconnected (and taped/wire nutted over to prevent a
> short to something else). If you have an existing outlet, just connect
> nothing to the neutral leg on the plug.
>
> Again, not an electrician, but that's what I'd do in my own house.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Thu Dec 10 19:07:12 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:07:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
In-Reply-To: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
References: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0912101807g4b0783e1qe26ff3eeb2c6ee21@mail.gmail.com>

DC current flows primarily through the surface of a conductor, AC
current through the center of a conductor.  My biggect concern with
this stuff is that Aluminum can become brittle when subjected to
vibration (work hardening).  The aluminum core could fracture,
possibly causing arcing and a fire.  This is part of the reason
aluminum is not allowed in house wiring anymore.


On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
> Today's Hemmings weekly newsletter had the following article on a new
> copper-coated aluminum battery cable material from Accel.  The aluminum
cable
> is said to conduct as much current as a similar gauge of copper, because
the
> aluminum is copper-coated, and (they assert) "as with any electrical cable,
> the current flows over the surface of the strands, not through them".  If
this
> is true, why then doesn't stranded wire carry far more current than
> similar-gauge solid wire ??  Lots more surface area.
>
> The article follows.
>
> Karl
>
>
> ACCEL introduces lightweight battery cable
> Racers are always on the lookout for new ways to shave mass from their
> machines, looking for even a small advantage over the other guy. Recently,
at
> the SEMA show in Las Vegas, ACCEL rolled out one of its newest techniques
for
> saving a few pounds: Lightning Cable. The name is a clever play, as these
> cables offer the benefit of lightening combined with excellent electrical
> current flow.
>
> The design of the cable itself is fairly clever as well. Typical battery
cable
> is made from copper strands for superior conductivity, but copper is
> significantly heavier than aluminum, though aluminum can t provide the same
> quality of current flow. ACCEL s solution was to use aluminum strands
coated
> with copper, since, as with any electrical cable, the current flows over
the
> surface of the strands, not through them. The result is a battery cable
that
> weighs half as much as similar gauge copper without sacrificing
performance.
>
> Lightning Cable is offered in 1/0-, 2- and 4-gauge wire thickness and is
> available with trick compression terminals that fasten by inserting the
> stripped end of the cable into the fitting and then threading the fitting
into
> the terminal. Heat-shrink wrap is also offered to finish off cable
assemblies.
> For more information, go to www.accel-ignition.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From jmitch at snet.net  Thu Dec 10 19:25:35 2009
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:25:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W23D14337A7484F9951F4D7E18C0@phx.gbl>
References: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>,
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0912092341580.8683@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<SNT123-W23D14337A7484F9951F4D7E18C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4B21AD9F.2030009@snet.net>

    I wired it up tonight and it's working perfectly with no SPARKS.  I 
did run 3 conductor + bare ground wire to an outlet.   Then ran 50 amp 
cable from the compressor to a plug for the outlet.   Now for the 
plumbing,  Thanks for the help all.  John Mitchell
Rich White wrote:
> I would look at the three conductor wire for a new installation and then use
> the wire nut or tape on it.
>
> The cost difference might not be that much and maybe the next item you place
> there will want 110v.
>
>
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA
> '63 TR3B TCF587L
> That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!
>
>
>
>
>   
>> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:46:20 -0500
>> From: marka at maracing.com
>> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, John Mitchell wrote:
>>     
>>> I just received a new Ingersoll Rand compressor which in 220V single
>>> phase. The problem is the box has only 2 wiring connections, L1 and L2.
>>> There's also a greenish screw at the back of the box, which I assume is
>>> for the bare ground wire. So where does the neutral wire go? The
>>> instructions are pretty useless. John Mitchell
>>>       
>> I'm not an electrician but...
>>
>> Sounds to me like its a normal straight 220vac motor. It takes 110vac on
>> one line and 110vac on the other line (making 220vac). The green screw is
>> for the safety ground. Since there are no 110vac loads in the compressor,
>> there's no need for a neutral wire.
>>
>> If you're running new wire, just run standard /2 wire in whatever guage
>> you need for the amperage. If you have an existing wire run, I'd leave
>> the neutral wire disconnected (and taped/wire nutted over to prevent a
>> short to something else). If you have an existing outlet, just connect
>> nothing to the neutral leg on the plug.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Dec 10 19:29:20 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:29:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wiring a new compressor.
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W23D14337A7484F9951F4D7E18C0@phx.gbl>
References: <4B206311.4000303@snet.net>,
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0912092341580.8683@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<SNT123-W23D14337A7484F9951F4D7E18C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <222ABA3CCF3E4378AF9E35CBF72CFB46@jdnet.deere.com>

> I would look at the three conductor wire for a new 
> installation and then use the wire nut or tape on it.

Just to second that; I plan to add a solenoid to my backyard compressor, to
shut off the air when the power is off (to limit damage if a hose breaks
while not in use).  I wish now I had pulled a neutral along with the others.

-- Randall  

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Dec 10 19:36:19 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:36:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
In-Reply-To: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
References: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
Message-ID: <23CCF6CF6E524E1FAFBA1568CD1B40DF@jdnet.deere.com>

Sounds like snake oil to me.  There is a skin effect with RF current; but
not with DC AFAIK.

And even the RF skin effect doesn't apply to strands that are in contact
with each other.  That is to say, stranded wire acts like solid wire, the RF
current flows only through the skin of the bundle, not the skin of each
strand.

-- Randall  

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Thu Dec 10 19:42:06 2009
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:42:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
In-Reply-To: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
References: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
Message-ID: <4B21B17E.6080107@comcast.net>

On 12/10/2009 8:08 PM, Karl Vacek wrote:
> Today's Hemmings weekly newsletter had the following article on a new
> copper-coated aluminum battery cable material from Accel.  The aluminum cable
> is said to conduct as much current as a similar gauge of copper, because the
> aluminum is copper-coated, and (they assert) "as with any electrical cable,
> the current flows over the surface of the strands, not through them".  If this
> is true, why then doesn't stranded wire carry far more current than
> similar-gauge solid wire ??  Lots more surface area.
>    
It does, but not as much as you would expect.  As electrons flow through 
wire they repel each other, just like two north poles on magnets, 
pushing to the surface.  This effect is why your car is the safest place 
in a thunderstorm.  Stranded wire has more surface, but the electrons 
are still pushed outward to the outer strands.
> The article follows.
>
> Karl
>
>
> ACCEL introduces lightweight battery cable
> Racers are always on the lookout for new ways to shave mass from their
> machines, looking for even a small advantage over the other guy. Recently, at
> the SEMA show in Las Vegas, ACCEL rolled out one of its newest techniques for
> saving a few pounds: Lightning Cable. The name is a clever play, as these
> cables offer the benefit of lightening combined with excellent electrical
> current flow.
>
> The design of the cable itself is fairly clever as well. Typical battery cable
> is made from copper strands for superior conductivity, but copper is
> significantly heavier than aluminum, though aluminum cant provide the same
> quality of current flow. ACCELs solution was to use aluminum strands coated
> with copper, since, as with any electrical cable, the current flows over the
> surface of the strands, not through them. The result is a battery cable that
> weighs half as much as similar gauge copper without sacrificing performance.
>
> Lightning Cable is offered in 1/0-, 2- and 4-gauge wire thickness and is
> available with trick compression terminals that fasten by inserting the
> stripped end of the cable into the fitting and then threading the fitting into
> the terminal. Heat-shrink wrap is also offered to finish off cable assemblies.
> For more information, go to www.accel-ignition.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Thu Dec 10 20:10:54 2009
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:10:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
In-Reply-To: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
Message-ID: <C747226E.BDF0%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Well, you learn new physics every day! It's certainly true that there is a
"skin effect" at high frequencies, but battery current is not high
frequency. 

Brian K



> From: Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> Reply-To: Karl Vacek <KVacek at Ameritech.net>
> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:08:19 -0600
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
> 
> Today's Hemmings weekly newsletter had the following article on a new
> copper-coated aluminum battery cable material from Accel.  The aluminum cable
> is said to conduct as much current as a similar gauge of copper, because the
> aluminum is copper-coated, and (they assert) "as with any electrical cable,
> the current flows over the surface of the strands, not through them".  If this
> is true, why then doesn't stranded wire carry far more current than
> similar-gauge solid wire ??  Lots more surface area.
> 
> The article follows.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> ACCEL introduces lightweight battery cable
> Racers are always on the lookout for new ways to shave mass from their
> machines, looking for even a small advantage over the other guy. Recently, at
> the SEMA show in Las Vegas, ACCEL rolled out one of its newest techniques for
> saving a few pounds: Lightning Cable. The name is a clever play, as these
> cables offer the benefit of lightening combined with excellent electrical
> current flow.
> 
> The design of the cable itself is fairly clever as well. Typical battery cable
> is made from copper strands for superior conductivity, but copper is
> significantly heavier than aluminum, though aluminum cant provide the same
> quality of current flow. ACCELs solution was to use aluminum strands coated
> with copper, since, as with any electrical cable, the current flows over the
> surface of the strands, not through them. The result is a battery cable that
> weighs half as much as similar gauge copper without sacrificing performance.
> 
> Lightning Cable is offered in 1/0-, 2- and 4-gauge wire thickness and is
> available with trick compression terminals that fasten by inserting the
> stripped end of the cable into the fitting and then threading the fitting into
> the terminal. Heat-shrink wrap is also offered to finish off cable assemblies.
> For more information, go to www.accel-ignition.com
> ___

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 10 20:46:11 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:46:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
References: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
	<5vd3i5dg9f2gaoe4uibcvj5d217vtfvsl6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <BB04D0A6B6F94982933E3821A52979B3@KARL>

Indeed, I've long heard of "skin effect" in antennas, but never heard of it 
in electrical power transmission.  12-gauge stranded wire is rated the same 
as 12-gauge solid, so it sounded like BS, but I figured I'd ask.

There may be some advantage in avoiding the corrosion issues with aluminum 
conductors, with the copper "coating", but who knows what that "coating" 
really is anyway.

Thanks !
Karl



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wilhelmy" <rwil at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Karl Vacek" <KVacek at Ameritech.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??


The only current I know of that travels on the surface of a conductor
is radio frequency AC.  In other words AC of something like 1000 to
100,000 hertz.  Everything else uses the whole conductor, otherwise
they'd make conductors for household current some funny shape or at
least a flat ribbon instead of round, and  they would be figuring
current capacity by something other than cross-sectional area.

I would suspect that the rest is bullshit.

-Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Donald H Locker" <dhlocker at comcast.net>
To: "Karl Vacek" <KVacek at Ameritech.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??


> Someone's been dreaming up marketing BS.  Direct current flows through the 
> bulk of the metal, not on the skin.  Skin effect only comes into play at 
> radio frequencies.
>
> The advantage that stranding brings to cables is not conductivity, but 
> flexibility.  That's the only advantage.  It's more expensive, it's 
> larger, it's harder to make.
>
> HTH,
> Donald.

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Thu Dec 10 21:42:03 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:42:03 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
References: <C694D8CA8AFD4E4EA06A0C53A34D88C5@KARL>
	<4B21B17E.6080107@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <97F3648076D940DB8301266ACD43106C@B50SS>

Years ago I worked as a linesman for the railroad in Michigan (the Grand 
Trunk Railroad, a subdivision of the Canadian National).

For all of the pole line AC wiring, it was copper clad steel core (copper 
plated steel core). For all of the low voltage DC, they used solid copper.

>From my limited studies in physics, I do know that the preponderance of 
electrical conduction is at the surface, but I also know than transmission 
rates are highly dependent upon frequency.

That much said, I am no help.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter J. Thomas" <pj_thomas at comcast.net>
To: "Karl Vacek" <KVacek at Ameritech.net>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??


> On 12/10/2009 8:08 PM, Karl Vacek wrote:
>> Today's Hemmings weekly newsletter had the following article on a new
>> copper-coated aluminum battery cable material from Accel.  The aluminum 
>> cable
>> is said to conduct as much current as a similar gauge of copper, because 
>> the
>> aluminum is copper-coated, and (they assert) "as with any electrical 
>> cable,
>> the current flows over the surface of the strands, not through them".  If 
>> this
>> is true, why then doesn't stranded wire carry far more current than
>> similar-gauge solid wire ??  Lots more surface area.
>>
> It does, but not as much as you would expect.  As electrons flow through 
> wire they repel each other, just like two north poles on magnets, pushing 
> to the surface.  This effect is why your car is the safest place in a 
> thunderstorm.  Stranded wire has more surface, but the electrons are still 
> pushed outward to the outer strands.
>> The article follows.
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>> ACCEL introduces lightweight battery cable
>> Racers are always on the lookout for new ways to shave mass from their
>> machines, looking for even a small advantage over the other guy. 
>> Recently, at
>> the SEMA show in Las Vegas, ACCEL rolled out one of its newest techniques 
>> for
>> saving a few pounds: Lightning Cable. The name is a clever play, as these
>> cables offer the benefit of lightening combined with excellent electrical
>> current flow.
>>
>> The design of the cable itself is fairly clever as well. Typical battery 
>> cable
>> is made from copper strands for superior conductivity, but copper is
>> significantly heavier than aluminum, though aluminum cant provide the 
>> same
>> quality of current flow. ACCELs solution was to use aluminum strands 
>> coated
>> with copper, since, as with any electrical cable, the current flows over 
>> the
>> surface of the strands, not through them. The result is a battery cable 
>> that
>> weighs half as much as similar gauge copper without sacrificing 
>> performance.
>>
>> Lightning Cable is offered in 1/0-, 2- and 4-gauge wire thickness and is
>> available with trick compression terminals that fasten by inserting the
>> stripped end of the cable into the fitting and then threading the fitting 
>> into
>> the terminal. Heat-shrink wrap is also offered to finish off cable 
>> assemblies.
>> For more information, go to www.accel-ignition.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Dec 11 08:57:08 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:57:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
In-Reply-To: <BB04D0A6B6F94982933E3821A52979B3@KARL>
Message-ID: <16.00.01567.4DB622B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Indeed, I've long heard of "skin effect" in antennas, but 
> never heard of it 
> in electrical power transmission.  

It's significant even at 60 Hz if the wire is large enough.  Good write-up
at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
gives the skin depth as about 1cm @ 60Hz, less than .0001cm @ 10GHz.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Dec 11 09:54:59 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:54:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Is this really true ??
Message-ID: <200912111654.nBBGsxK5011056@moose.dimebank.com>

> Indeed, I've long heard of "skin effect" in antennas, but never heard of it 
> in electrical power transmission.

Well, then, you're obviously not an audiophile. That world is engaged
in entirely new levels of snake-oil sales, pitching power cables that
are designed to resist the electrical interference that can enter your
components via the skin of the power cord and thus distort your sound.

I kid you not.

http://www.lessloss.com/high-performance-power-cables-c-65.html

provides several particularly egregious examples. Be sure to
read the reviews and articles ... if you have the stomach for it.

From ericm at lne.com  Sat Dec 12 11:06:48 2009
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:06:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
Message-ID: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>

I've been doing mods to my cars instead of my motorcycles lately.

The current one is a Mazdaspeed3.  I installed a sport suspension
(mazdaspeed coilovers) this summer.  When I took it in to the local 
tire shop which does my alignments, they claimed it was within spec
and they didn't need to change anything.  But when I rotated my tires
recently I found that the inner edges of the fronts were worn.   I
didn't change the front camber much- it's lowered only 1/2 inch and
there's not much camber change you can get by moving the top of the
strut around in its mount before bolting it down.. not a lot of slop
in the mount.  It's a mcpherson front
so camber does not change a lot when its lowered.

I think the toe is off.  But I'd like to measure it myself and perhaps
play with setting it to something other than the factory specs, like a little
closer to dead even.

So, what's the best tools for measuring toe?  "toe plates"?
http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-toe-plates-wtapes.html?productid=486

The rod with pointers deal seems like a pain, mostly from having to scribe
the tire.  Is it that much better?

Any good sites that explain the process?  Can you get results at home
that are accurate enough for daily driving?  The range in the factory
spec is suprisingly large.

I have also been thinking of using a digital angle gauge like
http://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR300-Digital-Angle-Gauge/dp/B001PTGBRQ/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1240410257&sr=1-9
and a hunk of tubing with a couple bolts in the appropriate
places to make a camber gauge, rather than spending $270 on
the fancy version of the same thing-
http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-digital-cc-gauge-w-acculevel-and-quick-set-adapter.html?productid=485

Would that work?


Thanks!

Eric

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Sat Dec 12 11:50:29 2009
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:50:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
Message-ID: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>

Looking for recommendations for a portable 
GPS system for our cars.  Needs to be portable 
and self-powered because we'd probably use 
it during our antique car tours as well as with 
our daily drivers.  

Any direct experience regarding brands (Garmin, 
Magellan, TomTom, etc.) and desired features? 
Christmas time is drawing near<grin>
Thanks

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Sat Dec 12 12:25:08 2009
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:25:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery chargers
Message-ID: <6D165BA3E39644A9B3C0298C82FB54DC@Fest>

We seem to go through quite a few battery chargers and have 4-5 ones that no
longer work.  Most are the manual kind i.e. set the timer then the amps.  My
question is ...is anyone familar with a way to fix them ?? It seems to me that
the must have a fusing mechanism that can be replaced ?? Any help ??
Thanks,
Dan

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Dec 12 12:36:17 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:36:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
In-Reply-To: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
References: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <0KUK005ZY14KO680@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Ever hear of the Gunson Trakrite?  It's a thing you just drive 
over.  Check out:
http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=676&item=1812

It is available in the US from www.lbcarco.com.  I recently bought 
one for my MG, but I haven't tried it out yet.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Dec 12 12:57:41 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:57:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
In-Reply-To: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
References: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <B0546713C2AE47A3A8100CA7B00D7149@EricJRussellPC>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Murray"

> So, what's the best tools for measuring toe?  "toe plates"?
> http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-toe-plates-wtapes.html?productid=486

Looks quite expensive for something one could make from scrap plywood. (me 
being frugal. OK cheap.)

I've measured toe on my MGA using a couple of woodworking squares & a length 
of 2X4.

> I have also been thinking of using a digital angle gauge like
> http://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR300-Digital-Angle-Gauge/dp/B001PTGBRQ/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1240410257&sr=1-9

If it is accurate enough it might do the job. And if its accurate but won't 
do the job you could sell it to me. (1/2 price because I'm frugal. OK, 
cheap.)

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Dec 12 13:35:03 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:35:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
In-Reply-To: <0KUK005ZY14KO680@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
	<0KUK005ZY14KO680@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <0E05B7E5AC1C418988F04E3291FECCB7@EricJRussellPC>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Trovato"

> Ever hear of the Gunson Trakrite?  It's a thing you just drive
> over.  Check out:
> http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=676&item=1812

Looks that'd only work with British cars with near side & off side wheels...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell 

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Dec 12 13:37:14 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:37:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery chargers
In-Reply-To: <6D165BA3E39644A9B3C0298C82FB54DC@Fest>
References: <6D165BA3E39644A9B3C0298C82FB54DC@Fest>
Message-ID: <0KUK00H4K3ZEMPR0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Can you provide a little more information?  What kind of battery 
chargers are these?  Are we talking about charging car batteries, 
NiCads or what?  Is it possible to open them up and see circuits and such?

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Dec 12 13:41:16 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:41:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
In-Reply-To: <0E05B7E5AC1C418988F04E3291FECCB7@EricJRussellPC>
References: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
	<0KUK005ZY14KO680@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<0E05B7E5AC1C418988F04E3291FECCB7@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <0KUK008ZO44VYT40@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Can't drive them here anyway.  I can't find any place that sells 
petrol.  Only gasoline.

At 03:35 PM 12/12/2009, Eric J Russell wrote:
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Trovato"
>
>>Ever hear of the Gunson Trakrite?  It's a thing you just drive
>>over.  Check out:
>>http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=676&item=1812
>
>Looks that'd only work with British cars with near side & off side wheels...
>
>Eric Russell
>Mebane, NC
>http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Dec 12 14:06:50 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:06:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery chargers
In-Reply-To: <6D165BA3E39644A9B3C0298C82FB54DC@Fest>
Message-ID: <49.00.01470.AE5042B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> We seem to go through quite a few battery chargers and have 
> 4-5 ones that no
> longer work.  Most are the manual kind i.e. set the timer 
> then the amps.  My
> question is ...is anyone familar with a way to fix them ?? 

They are usually very simple inside, so open it up and make a few tests.  If
the transformer is gone, it's probably not worth replacing.  But if it's
just a diode, or circuit breaker, they are fairly easy and cheap to replace.

I've been using an old Schumacher 2/10/50 model for many years now that was
given to me in "quit working" condition.  All it needed were some diodes,
which I salvaged from a scrap alternator.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sat Dec 12 14:29:45 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:29:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>

At 01:50 PM 12/12/2009, Steve Hammatt wrote:

 >Looking for recommendations for a portable GPS system for our 
cars.  Needs to
 >be portable and self-powered because we'd probably use it during our antique
 >car tours as well as with our daily drivers.

I went through this last Xmas.  My oldest son wanted a GPS and I didn't know a
thing about them.  I went to several stores and asked a lot of 
questions, but still
didn't really have much to go on.

My son had found a Garmin Nuvi 350 online for $150!!!  Usually $300-$500 range.
I looked at all that was offered and decided I didn't know what I was 
looking at.
He had some friends that had the 350 so he was used to it.   So I ended up
buying 2 of the 350s, one for each son.  The youngest said he really 
didn't want
it, so I bought it from him.

All in all, I'm very happy with it.  I like the way it talks to you - 
but I think most of
them do that now.

Look around on-line and you might be able to find a similar price.

As for being totally self powered, I don't know how long the 
batteries will last.
But it can be used self powered, and comes with a car charger and I think a
wall charger (don't remember - never used it).

Garmin is probably the leader in GPSs with Tom-Tom and several others trying
to copy them.  I don't think you'll go wrong with a Garmin.

 >Any direct experience regarding brands (Garmin, Magellan, TomTom, etc.) and
 >desired features? Christmas time is drawing near<grin>

Some things I don't like about them is most only allow for 1 way point.  Many
times I want to go someplace, but it will route me in a way that I don't really
want to go.  It's kind of hard to trick them into going the way you want.

I know with Google maps and Rand McNally Tripmaker, I usually get around this
by setting "stop overs" or way points.

They won't let you set several stops, and figure out what the best route is.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From sdillen at telus.net  Sat Dec 12 14:44:59 2009
From: sdillen at telus.net (Steve Dillen)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:44:59 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Fwd: Re:  home car alignment tools]
Message-ID: <4B240EDB.7010602@telus.net>


From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sat Dec 12 14:59:43 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:59:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
In-Reply-To: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
References: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0912121641450.73764@itonami.pair.com>

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Eric Murray wrote:
> So, what's the best tools for measuring toe?  "toe plates"?
> http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-toe-plates-wtapes.html?productid=486

    Being cheap, I built my own with 12' of aluminum angle from 
McMaster-Carr.  Cost about $15-20 for a set of four.

> Any good sites that explain the process?  Can you get results at home
> that are accurate enough for daily driving?  The range in the factory
> spec is suprisingly large.
>
> I have also been thinking of using a digital angle gauge like...
> and a hunk of tubing with a couple bolts in the appropriate
> places to make a camber gauge, rather than spending $270 on
> the fancy version of the same thing-...

    I autocrossed a bunch of different cars for 12 years, and still do a 
little racing here and there.  Early-on I found that most alignment shops 
were only concerned with 'does it go straight', and even the relatively 
specialist shop recommended by racing friends wasn't much better ( had to 
go back twice to get him to do it right ).

    I gave up, and did my own.  It's really not hard at all, if you have a 
level place to work.  Toe plates, as mentioned, plus a bubble camber gauge 
( about $40, probably from Racer Wholesale or similar, I don't remember ), 
some spin plates ( two pieces of metal with grease smeared between ) and 
you can do a better job than your local shop probably will.  It's not the 
tools that make the difference, it's how bad you want it done right.  The 
first couple times I did my own, I subsequently took it to Just Tires for 
their free alignment-check service ( no longer available ) and their 
Hunter rack confirmed my accuracy ( or we were both wrong, but that's the 
point, right? )

    If you are really cheap, you can skip the bubble level and just do math 
to calculate camber.  A digital level is serious overkill unless you're 
just into cool toys.

    If you haven't got a level place to work, though, I imagine you'd be 
chasing your own tail so much that it wouldn't be worthwhile.

--
  David Hillman

From cak at dimebank.com  Sat Dec 12 15:05:57 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
Message-ID: <200912122205.nBCM5vjl009786@moose.dimebank.com>

Radio Shack offers refurb Nuvi 350s from time to time. I have one and
really like it.

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Dec 12 15:09:37 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:09:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery chargers
In-Reply-To: <81CFCF7E0C2D4199907BD252FBDB091E@Fest>
References: <6D165BA3E39644A9B3C0298C82FB54DC@Fest>
	<0KUK00H4K3ZEMPR0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<81CFCF7E0C2D4199907BD252FBDB091E@Fest>
Message-ID: <0KUK000WZ88NRXN0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, I'm not sure where to start.  Some of these devices are very 
simple.  really just a big transformer and some diodes.  Maybe a 
mechanical timer and a meter.  There should be a circuit breaker in 
there as well.  This type should be relatively easy to diagnose with 
a voltmeter.  Some more "advanced" models have electronics inside.  A 
circuit board "brain" that controls the rate of charge, etc.  One can 
still check the basics with a voltmeter, but if the fault is in the 
electronics it may get a bit more difficult.  If you figure out the 
exact model numbers, you may be able to search around for owners 
manuals, schematics and parts listings on the web.  If you think that 
you're in over your head and you have a bunch of these to work on, 
perhaps the best thing would be to find someone to help.  Maybe a 
student who's into electrical stuff.  My son would be glad to do it 
if you were nearby, but PA is a little out of range.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net



At 04:11 PM 12/12/2009, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote:
>Steven:
>Thanks for the reply.  Yes should have provided more details.  These 
>are car or truck charges 20 around $200-$250 ea.  A few are 
>Craftmen. Typical settings include 12a, 40 amp and 225 boost for 
>starting with a handle and wheels on the back. Yes they can be opened.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Dec 12 15:20:25 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:20:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <86.AB.01550.927142B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> My son had found a Garmin Nuvi 350 online for $150!!!  

We also have a 350, with the "free" traffic option (which is actually
advertising supported).

The GPS part works reasonably well, although there does seem to be a bug in
their handling of shading conditions at power-on.  If you are in a concrete
parking garage or similar when you power the unit up, and then drive
outside, it sometimes takes an inordinate amount of time to find 4
satellites.

But I have been definitely underwhelmed with the mapping software and/or the
embedded maps.  It has done crazy things like deciding I need to make a
U-turn for no reason; sending me off one freeway ramp and back on the next
ramp; routing down roads that don't exist (and never did); and last year it
wanted me to drive from Phoenix to LA via San Diego!  (Which it knew was
some 80 miles out of the way.)

The wife thought I was just being picky, until it directed us to drive into
a river <g>  In San Francisco over the Thanksgiving holiday, it told me to
drive through a concrete wall.  Then there was the cul-de-sac in rural Utah
(apparently a new development that fizzled due to lack of funds) where it
kept yelling to turn right as I drove around the circle at the end.  Nothing
to my right but curb and dirt.

Bottom line, it's a useful tool, but you have to apply a healthy dose of
common sense.  Don't trust it to actually know either where you are, where
you are supposed to be, or the best way to get from here to there.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Dec 12 15:30:40 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:30:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <0KUK00KOK9779CB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

With Google maps you can just drag the route shown to the road you 
want to take.  The new traffic feature is pretty cool too.  As for 
GPS systems, I'm not much help.  As John said, I think Garmin and Tom 
Tom both make decent stuff.  I would just go to their websites and 
try to find one of those comparison charts or feature lists.  Then 
try to decide features vs. cost.  As for your requirement of running 
on a battery, all the ones I've seen can do that, but the question 
is, for how long?  I don't think they really intended them to be 
navigating all day on the battery.  You can get 12V negative ground 
out of pretty much any vehicle with a battery, if you're willing to 
get an appropriate converter/adapter.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 04:29 PM 12/12/2009, John T. Blair wrote:
>I know with Google maps and Rand McNally Tripmaker, I usually get around this
>by setting "stop overs" or way points.

From sdillen at telus.net  Sat Dec 12 17:18:51 2009
From: sdillen at telus.net (Steve Dillen)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:18:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
Message-ID: <4B2432EB.30101@telus.net>

....I'm really brain dead today...this is my >fourth< attempt to post my
answer to Eric's question to the list. I'm afraid the difficulty is a
result of a serious EBKAC (error between keyboard and chair), but here's
another attempt!

Funny that you bring this up as I've been playing with front end
alignment quite a bit over this last summer. My short answer to your
question is that I believe you can get very good toe-in adjustment
results at home with a lot of patience and a tape measure.

On my BMW 735il, I replaced lower control arms, center tie rod, outer
tie rods, idler arm and the thrust arms and aligned it when I was done. 
The specs call for 18 minutes of a degree of toe-in (+/- 5 minutes), so
I measured the distance between the front and rear of the tire (22
inches where I decided to take my measurement) and multiplied that
distance by TAN(0.3)....resulting in .115 of toe-in. Including the +/-
results in an acceptable range of .083 through .147.....and an 1/8" is
right in the ballpark. It was pretty easy to measure from a consistent
point on the tire tread to get this reading. The car tracks correctly
and I'm not seeing any evidence of unusual toe-in tire wear.....

On my Jeep TJ, I replaced coil springs which then required a change of
caster (in order to correct pinion angle) as well as a toe-in correction
due to the different angles the drag link and tie rod are now operating.
I used a protractor to measure the pinion angle (adjustable control arms
make this setting easy to adjust) and a consistent spot on the tire
tread to measure toe-in. I'm happy with my results.

Remember...the greater distance you can use to take your measurements,
the more room for error you have.....for instance if I clamped a few
straight edges to the rotors of the car and was able to take my
measurements 48" apart, my "in spec results" would be anywhere between
.182 and .321....or 3/16 - 5/16 -- well within the capability of
accurately measuring with a tape measure.

I haven't played with camber adjustments because tire wear on the car
indicates to me that it's all good and it's on the Jeep it's not
adjustable. 

Steve Dillen
Maple Ridge, BC

Eric Murray wrote:
> I've been doing mods to my cars instead of my motorcycles lately.
>
>
> I think the toe is off. But I'd like to measure it myself and perhaps
> play with setting it to something other than the factory specs, like a
little
> closer to dead even.
>
> Any good sites that explain the process? Can you get results at home
> that are accurate enough for daily driving? The range in the factory
> spec is suprisingly large.

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sat Dec 12 17:26:05 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:26:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <0KUK00KOK9779CB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
	<0KUK00KOK9779CB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0912121626y121c22c6yd1e4fb696cdf000@mail.gmail.com>

We bought my FIL a TomTom on sale for $100 online.  It is quite easy
to use and seems to work very well.





-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Dec 12 17:29:43 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:29:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
References: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <COL115-W22F5116387F1525B4EF947CC8A0@phx.gbl>

I have a Garmin Nuvi 760, which was near the top of their line when I bought
it, but isn't anymore.  (I am not even sure they sell that model anymore.)  In
general, I am happy with it, but the battery doesn't last very long when not
plugged into the cigarette lighter.  I don't know if other brands or models
are better, but I would not recommend this one for running only off of the
battery.

BTW: For what its worth, I recently visited a friend who had a new
voice-activated Garmin 855.  Voice-activated commands seems like a great idea
for a GPS, but I was not impressed with his system.  It seemed like it was
more trouble than it was worth, and that was in his modern SUV.  I imagine it
would be totally useless in a noisy LBC or other classic car.

> From: gsteve at hammatt.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:50:29 -0800
> Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
>
> Looking for recommendations for a portable
> GPS system for our cars.  Needs to be portable
> and self-powered because we'd probably use
> it during our antique car tours as well as with
> our daily drivers.
>
> Any direct experience regarding brands (Garmin,
> Magellan, TomTom, etc.) and desired features?
> Christmas time is drawing near<grin>
> Thanks
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 12 17:40:00 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:40:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <1B536FFA021C40478969998C2A89C0DA@Digilink1>

I was in West Marine on "Black Friday" and they were having a special on the
Garmin 355w for $119.95 (try to beat that!)I have played around with it in
my home territory and have found that it quite consistently chooses the
route if usually travel. If you do "go home" and decide to go "off route" to
pick up some milk it will annoy you with "recalculating" until you get back
on track....I also order the topographical chip for the central plains
states (I know that somebody is saying, "Why do you need a topographic chip
for the central plains? There is no topography there!)because when we are at
the ranch during the summer we are regularly on township roads ("road" is
sometimes being kind)that don't have real names......they are often just
referred to as "the road to so and so's place" I am anxious to see how this
feature works....

Gerry

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steve Hammatt Mount
Vernon WA USA
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 1:50 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems

Looking for recommendations for a portable
GPS system for our cars.  Needs to be portable
and self-powered because we'd probably use
it during our antique car tours as well as with
our daily drivers.

Any direct experience regarding brands (Garmin,
Magellan, TomTom, etc.) and desired features?
Christmas time is drawing near<grin>
Thanks

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Dec 12 18:43:24 2009
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:43:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] List Notes
In-Reply-To: <4B2432EB.30101@telus.net>
References: <4B2432EB.30101@telus.net>
Message-ID: <4B2446BC.8000805@bradakis.com>

Steve Dillen wrote:
> ....I'm really brain dead today...this is my >fourth< attempt to post my
> answer to Eric's question to the list. I'm afraid the difficulty is a
> result of a serious EBKAC (error between keyboard and chair), but here's
> another attempt!
>   
>
I don't know the exact nature of your troubles with posting, but as a 
general FYI
for all the folks on this list, here's something I recently sent to 
another list that
points out some issues with sending mail to the lists.


> There are a number of reasons mail that folks intend to be sent to the 
> list don't
>
> make it.  You'd be surprised at the number of folks who can't figure out 
> that
>
> to send mail to shop-talk at autox.team.net you simply send mail to
>
> shop-talk at autox.team.net.  On occasion you see messages that look like
>
> replies to some message, a subject line like:
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: topic1
>
>
>
> In the body of the message, though, absolutely no reference to topic1,
>
> but a new discussion on topic2.  What these folks leave out should be
>
> an opening sentence like "I can't figure out how to send a new  email
>
> to the list, so I used reply and am too lazy to edit the subject line."
>
>
>
> But for the most part messages sent from a valid subscription address
>
> to the proper posting address and get held back are simply too long.
>
> Gee, I just ranted on about editing replies on another list, a few of
>
> you might remember.
>
>
>
> Basically the default behavior of many mail programs these days is
>
> to include the *entire* original message as part of the text of a reply.
>
> And people don't bother to edit out the unnecessary text.  And someone
>
> replies to that reply, and the message gets longer and longer as the
>
> previous posts needlessly  cascade on and on.
>
>
>
> Now on the one hand, I like to see the line
>
>
>
>    Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>
>
> repeated multiple times in messages, though most folks ignore
>
> that anyway.  But there's also a lot of other stuff that gets repeated
>
> that doesn't need to be included.  It simply wastes bandwidth [*],
>
> fills up peoples' mailboxes sooner so they removed from the list
>
> for no fault of their own, it makes the archiver work harder both
>
> in indexing the repetitive text to begin with as well as returning
>
> many copies in queries, when one would be sufficient.  Think of
>
> it as a computer equivalent of a child repeating "are we there yet?"
>
> over and over and over and over again.
>
>
>
> I won't point out some of the most blatant recent examples, now,
>
> will consider this message as hopefully enlightening a few of you.
>
> I'll go back to my prestigious, highly-paid occupation as Team.Net's
>
> chief byte duster and toilet scrubber.
>
>
>
> mjb.
>
>
>
>
>
>  *:  bandwidth - for those who don't understand this, think of it
>
> as being like filling a swimming pool.  Which will fill it faster,
>
> a fire hose or a garden hose?  The "pipe" that the Team.Net bits
>
> travel through is close to the garden hose capacity.  People who
>
> don't edit replies are kinking the hose, slowing things down for
>
> everyone.

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Dec 12 19:35:22 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:05:22 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <1B536FFA021C40478969998C2A89C0DA@Digilink1>
Message-ID: <OF2C5CEEEB.7B16788D-ON8525768B.000DF2C9-6425768B.000E992D@mail.megageek.com>

I've had great results with my Nuvi 350 over the years.  I did a blind 
cross country trip to AZ from NJ with it.  No problems.  (there was one 
part of ID that had new highway construction that changed the roads, but a 
quick update fixed that.)

It will also take you different directions depending on time of day (to 
avoid high traffic areas.)

One cool feature was that I was able to load Iraq maps into it while I was 
in Iraq and use it.  I couldn't find Afghanistan maps before i left, so I 
don't have it with me now (yes, another Christmas in the middle east.)

The only thing I would say about that Nuvi is that it doesn't let you tell 
it that you are in the military.  So it constantly tries to go around 
military bases (even thought it has all of the roads on the base in the 
map.)  Once you go on a base, it works fine.

For the guy that was having problems with his, I would send it back or 
update the map.  I've never heard of such massive problems with mapping 
from the Nuvi user sites.  I would bet something is wrong with yours.

Also, you can d/l additional features and toys with the Nuvi.

Mine had about an 7 hours battery life when new.  I don't know what it is 
now (over 5 years old) but I can get an hour or two for sure with no 
problems.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



"Gerald Brazil" <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/13/2009 05:50

To
"'Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA'" <gsteve at hammatt.com>, "'Shop Talk'" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems






I was in West Marine on "Black Friday" and they were having a special on 
the
Garmin 355w for $119.95 (try to beat that!)I have played around with it in
my home territory and have found that it quite consistently chooses the
route if usually travel. If you do "go home" and decide to go "off route" 
to
pick up some milk it will annoy you with "recalculating" until you get 
back
on track....I also order the topographical chip for the central plains
states (I know that somebody is saying, "Why do you need a topographic 
chip
for the central plains? There is no topography there!)because when we are 
at
the ranch during the summer we are regularly on township roads ("road" is
sometimes being kind)that don't have real names......they are often just
referred to as "the road to so and so's place" I am anxious to see how 
this
feature works....

Gerry
Thanks

From bobkegel at comcast.net  Sat Dec 12 21:18:54 2009
From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:18:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <6579BCB110444D0A9660DB29CB639825@8sv5f01>

I have a Garmin Nuvi 370, essentially a 350 with a Bluetooth hand-free phone
interface.  I'm quite satisfied with it.

Yes, it has told me to drive off a bridge and occasionally can't find an
address in a business park. The directions are only as good as the base map
data. Garmin uses Navteq. You can get an idea of how well it might work in a
give area by going to Yahoo or Mapquest and comparing the map overlay to the
aerial photograph.

The factory suction cup mount broke after about a year of daily off and on
cycles (I take it to work and use it in the company car du jour). I replaced
it with a Ram unit. I almost always use the power cord but the factory says
the battery is good for 4 to 8 hours.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Dec 12 22:08:42 2009
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 22:08:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <OF2C5CEEEB.7B16788D-ON8525768B.000DF2C9-6425768B.000E992D@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF2C5CEEEB.7B16788D-ON8525768B.000DF2C9-6425768B.000E992D@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B2476DA.70804@bradakis.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I've had great results with my Nuvi 350 over the years.  I did a blind 
> cross country trip to AZ from NJ with it.  No problems.  (there was one 
> part of ID that had new highway construction that changed the roads, but a 
> quick update fixed that.)
>
>   

Arizona to New Jersey, and you went through Idaho.  No problems, eh?

mjb.

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Dec 13 02:15:24 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:45:24 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <4B2476DA.70804@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <OFFCE36F97.063CB158-ON8525768B.003304D3-6425768B.00333910@mail.megageek.com>

Opps, wrong state abbreviation.

I meant Indiana.  (all those states are the same, anyway.)  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/13/2009 10:16

To
'Shop Talk' <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems






eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I've had great results with my Nuvi 350 over the years.  I did a blind 
> cross country trip to AZ from NJ with it.  No problems.  (there was one 
> part of ID that had new highway construction that changed the roads, but 
a 
> quick update fixed that.)
>
> 

Arizona to New Jersey, and you went through Idaho.  No problems, eh?

mjb.
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec 13 07:52:48 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:52:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <13ADEC16D9B546B8B369DF1C1AF1821A@Digilink1>

I was in West Marine on "Black Friday" and they were having a special on the
Garmin 355w for $119.95 (try to beat that!)I have played around with it in
my home territory and have found that it quite consistently chooses the
route I usually travel. If you do "go home" and decide to go "off route" to
pick up some milk it will annoy you with "recalculating" until you get back
on track....I also order the topographical chip for the central plains
states (I know that somebody is saying, "Why do you need a topographic chip
for Kansas? There is no topography there!)because when we are at the ranch
during the summer we are regularly on township roads ("road" is sometimes
being kind)that don't have real names......they are often just referred to
as "the road to so and so's place" I am anxious to see how this feature
works. I hope the terrain feature helps us identify locations.

Gerry

From nases at verizon.net  Sun Dec 13 08:22:58 2009
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:22:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
References: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <F9220DBD-60E1-4E76-B1EA-9D82826F7413@verizon.net>

I have a Garmin nuvi 600 I bought about 3 years ago.  I think most basic map
functions are about the same.  The price differences are based on add-on
features.

I got the 600 because at the time it was the cheapest Garmin I could get that
would connect via bluetooth to answer my cellphone hands free.

As far as maps/routes go I also haven't found one yet that is as customizable
as I would like.  On a 100 mile trip to Jersey for instance it routes my
return trip on different roads than my original route even though I haven't
been on one ways.  Go figure.

The battery life on mine off the charger is not very good either.

There are some interesting navigation aids on cellphones these days.  It might
be a good idea to check them out in order to reduce the devices you need.
Even if there are monthly charges you may find they are competitive with
dedicated units after you look at expensive map updates on the Garmin.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Dec 12, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:

> Looking for recommendations for a portable GPS system for our cars.  Needs
to be portable and self-powered because we'd probably use it during our
antique car tours as well as with our daily drivers.
> Any direct experience regarding brands (Garmin, Magellan, TomTom, etc.) and
desired features? Christmas time is drawing near<grin>
> Thanks
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as nases at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Dec 13 09:23:54 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:23:54 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
Message-ID: <12849E17D2E94437996F8625F760E99F@KARL>

Having had a hand-me-down Garmin 60C for a year and a half, I thought it was 
just my old model GPS causing the same problems others note with their 
far-newer Garmins.  Why are they supposed to be the best ??  A limo service 
owner showed me his cheap MIO a year or two back that was far better than my 
Garmin.  It was impressive, and he said map downloads were free.  All his 
limos use them.

I looked at the Motorola Droid phone when Verizon got it a month or so ago, 
and besieds being an iPhone-killer, it looks like a far better GPS option. 
Downside is that the mandatory data service (which includes full Internet 
and e-mail) does run $30 a month, but iPhone and Blackberry users already 
pay this kind of fee anyway.  Having not only real GPS but also immediate 
access to Google maps, Google Streetview, and Google Earth, is lots more 
useful that just a GPS with maps that were updated some time in the last 
year.

I think it's a matter of time before this type of phone/computer/GPS takes 
over much of the standalone GPS market.  Garmin must see this coming, as 
they've been trying to sell Garmin phones for a while now.

Karl 

From marka at maracing.com  Sun Dec 13 09:45:32 2009
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:45:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <0KUK00KOK9779CB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
	<0KUK00KOK9779CB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0912131138070.24589@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I've got a Garmin Nuvi (don't know the model) I got a year or two ago.  I 
really like it, but you certainly have to remember that its a tool and if 
its maps don't match reality, you need to forget what its saying.  :-) 
Where I've driven, the maps have almost always been correct.

The other thing to remember is that all of these things seem pretty poor 
in knowing things like traffic density or ease of driving or whatever.  If 
it decides a route through small towns is 30 seconds faster, it'll 
recommend that even if there's an express route that's easier and 30 
seconds longer.  Similarly, it'll recommend a toll road over a non-toll 
road if the toll road is a minute quicker on a 300 mile trip.

So it still pays to look at the route and see if it makes sense.

Anyway, in terms of features I like... I like the one that can speak the 
street names.  "turn right" isn't all that great if you're at an 
intersection that has an on ramp right after it, for instance.

There was also a difference in which GPS chipset the manufacturer used, 
back when I got mine, but everyone was switching over to the good chipset 
then and I'd imagine they're all there now.  But might be worth checking 
out.

IIRC, there are two major map providers... TeleAtlas and someone else 
maybe?  There may be differences here that matter to you if one has better 
maps in your area, but you'll need to research a decent bit to figure it 
out.

Anyway, this has been a great addition to our vehicle and even my wife 
(who's way less willing to spend money than me), regularly says "I'm glad 
we got this".  These days, I'd really be tempted to buy whatever $100-ish 
on-sale GPS was available from Garmin or Tom-Tom or another major vendor 
and give it a go.

Mark

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Dec 13 11:56:19 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:56:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0912131138070.24589@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20091212162853.01e40cf8@cox.net>
	<0KUK00KOK9779CB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0912131138070.24589@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4B2538D3.1040806@comcast.net>

For another take on the topic:

http://www.economist.com/sciencetechnology/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15101353

*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net

*******************************************************************

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 13 14:23:03 2009
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:23:03 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <OFFCE36F97.063CB158-ON8525768B.003304D3-6425768B.00333910@mail.megageek.com>
References: <4B2476DA.70804@bradakis.com>
	<OFFCE36F97.063CB158-ON8525768B.003304D3-6425768B.00333910@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <441250190912131323l756d692fi87dc05f36b37a02c@mail.gmail.com>

Being from NJ they are all just big square vowel states. :-)

-g

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 1:15 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Opps, wrong state abbreviation.
>
> I meant Indiana.  (all those states are the same, anyway.)  8>)
>
> Moose
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
> Mark J Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com>
> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> 12/13/2009 10:16
>
> To
> 'Shop Talk' <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> eric at megageek.com wrote:
> > I've had great results with my Nuvi 350 over the years.  I did a blind
> > cross country trip to AZ from NJ with it.  No problems.  (there was one
> > part of ID that had new highway construction that changed the roads, but
> a
> > quick update fixed that.)
> >
> >
>
> Arizona to New Jersey, and you went through Idaho.  No problems, eh?
>
> mjb.
> You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
Their mythology starts with the false premise that these are irreplaceable
geniuses

Andrew Cuomo speaking about AIG executives

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 13 14:37:32 2009
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:37:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
References: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <441250190912131337m1b4910fbo4a8e1cc6e37e23e0@mail.gmail.com>

I have a TomTom 3?? in my wife's car and a Garmin Nuvi (cheap one) in my
truck.  First both units will have map errors, that is a given.  The mapping
and UI on the TomTom is better than the Garmin but the Garmin has a much
richer point of interest database.

Thinks I like about the TomTom are:


   - UI to pick a route is much better and eaiser to use
   - You can exclude part of the route via the UI.  This is great when it
   tries to route you down a busy section of road you would like to avoid.
   - When you re-route yourself the TomTom will use that new route much
   quicker then the Garmin.  The Garmin will work very hard to get you back
   onto its orignal route
   - Allows you to pick routes based on time, distance, seneic, etc
   - Runs for hours without the battery

Things I dislike about the TomTom

   - The POI database is not that complete.  Sometimes we know the name of
   where we want to go, but we cannot find it in the POI database

The Garmin is the complete opposite, I only like the POI database and all
the rest is not very good.  You can't exclude part of the route, it really
tries to stick to a route.

If I have to get another one, I would get a TomTom for my wife and I might
check out the MIO mentioned earlier in the thread for myself.  Even with the
sub-standard POI database I would choose a TomTom over the Garmin.

Bill
Issaquah, WA

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA <
gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:

> Looking for recommendations for a portable GPS system for our cars.  Needs
> to be portable and self-powered because we'd probably use it during our
> antique car tours as well as with our daily drivers.
> Any direct experience regarding brands (Garmin, Magellan, TomTom, etc.) and
> desired features? Christmas time is drawing near<grin>
> Thanks
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
Their mythology starts with the false premise that these are irreplaceable
geniuses

Andrew Cuomo speaking about AIG executives

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec 13 16:10:43 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:10:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <441250190912131323l756d692fi87dc05f36b37a02c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B2476DA.70804@bradakis.com>
	<OFFCE36F97.063CB158-ON8525768B.003304D3-6425768B.00333910@mail.megageek.com>
	<441250190912131323l756d692fi87dc05f36b37a02c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912131510u685e1261ofd33ae3cb94703a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Bill Gilroy <wmgilroy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Being from NJ they are all just big square vowel states. :-)
>
> An improvement over being a giant superfund site.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pethier at comcast.net  Sun Dec 13 20:10:37 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:10:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
In-Reply-To: <1486617863.829521260760184975.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1448025828.829881260760237940.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

>     I autocrossed a bunch of different cars for 12 years, and still do
> a 
> little racing here and there.  Early-on I found that most alignment
> shops 
> were only concerned with 'does it go straight', and even the
> relatively 
> specialist shop recommended by racing friends wasn't much better ( had
> to 
> go back twice to get him to do it right ).

We are lucky in the Twin Cities.  We have thealignmentguy.com

Jeff knows what he is doing and does it well.
  



Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L
1979 Caterham 7
1994 Miata C-package
2004 Suburban 8.1
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
http://www.triumphtransamerica.org.uk
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Dec 14 10:42:45 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:42:45 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] home car alignment tools
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0912121641450.73764@itonami.pair.com>
References: <20091212180648.GA18136@slack.lne.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0912121641450.73764@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703B76EF6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

David Hillman wrote:
>
>    If you haven't got a level place to work, though, I imagine you'd
be
> chasing your own tail so much that it wouldn't be worthwhile.

Correct, but you can always make a level place to work.  :)

Get a pile of floor tiles from your local hardware store - the cheapest
you can find.  Also a long flexible tube (cheap plastic hose) and a
couple of chunks of wood (2x4s about a foot high) and a few tie wraps.

Make a "water level" - tie wrap the long tube to the chunks of wood and
fill the tube with water so that it comes about halfway up the 2x4s when
they are placed next to each other.  Mark the level of the water in the
tubes on both chunks of wood.

Then place ends of the water level where the tires are going to be, and
raise the lower one until the water lines up with the mark.  Put however
many floor tiles you need under the lower one until they water is at the
marks.  You now know that the two spots under the chunks of wood are
level.  Repeat for all four corners.  Keep track of how many floor tiles
you use in each spot (might even draw a box around the tiles and put the
number on the floor.

With the car parked on the floor tiles, it is now setting level for
whatever alignment operations you are going to do.

For a full alignment, Google "string alignment" and you should find some
good step by step instructions...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 14 13:25:48 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:25:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
References: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <869930.21113.qm@web57006.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Mom had an old magellan. I liked it. It still works although I get a warning
that the maps are out of date. She upgraded to one of the Nuvis. I forgot
which one. On main roads, both have no issues. Get off the beaten path
outside of the city and strange things occur. The re-routing takes some
getting used to. Gives a whole new meaning to Bitchin' Betty. The routes
that it takes also seems strange at times. A friend has a Tom Tom and
claims no issues either. I think you'll find that the Garmins are quite
intuitive in operation. It is the same way with aircraft avionics too where
they seem to be taking the market share. As previously mentioned,
getting a fix can take a long time. One of the units has the new chipsets
and it still takes a while. Warm starts of course are much better. You
learn to turn on the unit before you get going and it will be ready when
you get in the car. 

On all of the stand alone units, I have yet to find one that has the detail 
that my old Streets and Trips maps had, even in 2D mode. Because of 
that, I'm currently using my WinMobile phone with both Google Maps 
and Bing. Both work quite well and provides the detail I need, although 
it is a bit tiny on the little screen. I had Yahoo Go V3 for a while, but it 
crashed too often and I got sick of their tech support telling me it was 
my phone. I just got an email saying they are cancelling it. Go! was also 
quite slow in comparison to Google or Bing. Google maps mobile does 
things right all the time in my experience. Bing has some quirks. One of 
the most annoying is that when you enable the GPS, it zooms in really 
tight and you have to zoom back out. You cannot move the map around 
if the GPS is active, otherwise it zooms right back to where you were. You 
can move around with Google maps mobile. Need to go back? Press the 
locate button that is right there on the screen and it goes back to the
GPS location. 

I'm positive my cell carrier hates my unlimited net sub at $30/month, but 
I've used the phone all over the US with no issues as long as there is cell
coverage. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



________________________________
From: Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA <gsteve at hammatt.com>
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 1:50:29 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems

Looking for recommendations for a portable GPS system for our cars.  Needs to be portable and self-powered because we'd probably use it during our antique car tours as well as with our daily drivers.  
Any direct experience regarding brands (Garmin, Magellan, TomTom, etc.) and desired features? Christmas time is drawing near<grin>
Thanks

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
You are subscribed as battmain at yahoo.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Dec 14 14:42:03 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:42:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS Systems
In-Reply-To: <869930.21113.qm@web57006.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <97A9A9431F134A5E9D356A0D27B752CD@DesktopPC>
	<869930.21113.qm@web57006.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912141342g584e7884xe84febb55e66a349@mail.gmail.com>

I'm positive my cell carrier hates my unlimited net sub at $30/month, but
> I've used the phone all over the US with no issues as long as there is cell
> coverage. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.
>
>
Depending on where you're going, a phone-based system might be the best way
to go.  (particularly if you've already got the phone.)  On the other hand,
if you're somewhere (mountain west, for instance) with poor cell phone
coverage, it might not be.

[And, side point.  I'm sure your cell phone company is making money off your
$30 data plan.  The marginal cost to provide data is vanishingly close to
zero.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Dec 15 09:22:47 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:22:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <47846809.12077471260388454146.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <47846809.12077471260388454146.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <C1D2E6C5-3323-45C4-A0A2-17737960820A@groupwbench.org>

Well, they seem convinced that putting a slab down in the spring is  
the way to go. So now that the moisture issue will be mostly taken  
care of, I need to come up with a way to insulate the ceiling. It's a  
shed roof that butts up against the house, framed with doubled up 2x8  
and the joist spacing varies by up to 2". There's a rubber roof on top  
where they have a deck, so the roof doesn't breathe, and there's no  
easy way to add any variant of ridge venting, though that's the way  
I'd go if this place landed in my lap. The black rubber roof will make  
an uninsulated garage nice and toasty in the northeast summer too....

The local lumberyard said even unfaced fiberglass would trap the  
condensed moisture and rot out the roof.

I think rigid foam against the decking would also trap moisture  
migrating through the joists and into the decking.

There isn't enough room to put in a false ceiling.

It'd probably be cheaper for us to tear down & rebuild the garage than  
to have spray foam installed.

Am I missing any options?

thanks,
jim

>
> ----- "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
>
>> From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
>> To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2009 10:58:12 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada  
>> Central
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
>>
>> Soil cement looks like a neat idea, but too labor and time intensive
>>
>> for this rental place. For all the work, I'd chip in a few more bucks
>>
>> to just get a real slab. I'll likely leave the car on the earth and
>> build a raised perimeter platform from wood for the shelves,  
>> toolboxes
>>
>> and bikes.
>>
>> thanks,
>> jim
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Dec 15 10:17:54 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:17:54 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <C1D2E6C5-3323-45C4-A0A2-17737960820A@groupwbench.org>
References: <47846809.12077471260388454146.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<C1D2E6C5-3323-45C4-A0A2-17737960820A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4B27C4C2.7050602@hornesystemstx.com>

Jim,

While it isn't insulation, there is a product out there that will keep 
your from roasting in the summer. Check out radiant barrier. It is 
basically a roll of paper with scrim in it that has aluminum foil on one 
or both sides. It reflects the heat back. You just staple it across the 
bottom of your roof framing. IT is usually perforated so that moisture 
won't build up. If you go with the single sided foil, install it with 
the foil down. If you install it foil side up the efficiency of the foil 
will decrease as dust accumulates on top of it. By putting the foil 
down, the paper gets the dust and it doesn't affect the reflection of 
heat as much. I use double sided barrier my self. Last time I bought 
some was about 5 years ago, and a 4'x100' roll was about $100. You might 
be able to find someone in your area that uses it that will sell or give 
you some of their roll ends to do your garage.

As far as insulation goes, you might consider adding foam insulation to 
the bottom of the framing, but hold the insulation back at the top and 
bottom edges of the roof to allow for air circulation. Sure, it won't be 
as efficient as completely covering the ceiling, but it will be better 
than nothing. Also, check with some professional insulation companies, 
and your local building inspection office.

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake Jim Franklin, On 12/15/2009 10:22 AM:
>
> The local lumberyard said even unfaced fiberglass would trap the 
> condensed moisture and rot out the roof.
>
> I think rigid foam against the decking would also trap moisture 
> migrating through the joists and into the decking.
>
> There isn't enough room to put in a false ceiling.
>
> It'd probably be cheaper for us to tear down & rebuild the garage than 
> to have spray foam installed.
>
> Am I missing any options?
>
> thanks,
> jim
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Dec 15 10:25:35 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:25:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Options for carport floor?
In-Reply-To: <C1D2E6C5-3323-45C4-A0A2-17737960820A@groupwbench.org>
References: <47846809.12077471260388454146.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<C1D2E6C5-3323-45C4-A0A2-17737960820A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <D388C870ADE44C6C80C77852DC8CAEDD@jdnet.deere.com>

> It's a shed roof that butts up against
> the house,

What's on the other side of the wall?  Could you vent through there?

> The local lumberyard said even unfaced fiberglass would trap
> the condensed moisture and rot out the roof.

Perhaps I'm naove, but I don't see how unfaced fiberglass batting is going
to trap moisture.  I'd probably install it anyway, and then if it did rot
out the roof, replace the roof with something more functional and properly
vented.

-- Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Tue Dec 15 16:57:12 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:57:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
Message-ID: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>

I wanted to provide an update on this discussion, which netted a fair
amount of feedback, both positive and negative.  I decided to hold off
on the changer based on that feedback, but still haven't gotten around
to trying to find a good dismount price at a tire shop.  However, I just got a
20% off HF coupon that brought the price down to $40, so I decided to
give it a try.  My report is a lot like what others found.

The
first thing I learned is the the instructions were really, really bad,
even by HF standards.  They are pretty poor for assembly, although you
can figure that out from the exploded diagram fairly easily.  But, they
are almost worthless on actual use.  I didn't want to start drilling
holes in the garage floor for something that might or might not work,
so I mounted it on a 10' 2x6 that I had laying around.  I then lifted
the front of my Alpine and set the wheels on top of the board.  That,
plus two pieces of scrap 2x4's that I bolted to the other two legs
seemed to give it enough stability for testing.  I decided to try on a
couple of old 13" Alpine steel wheels that I had laying around and
didn't really care about.  Breaking the bead on those was a breeze.
One good push with the breaker bar and they came loose.  Then, it was
time to try to remove the tire.  This is where the poor instructions
were really bad.  I could easily pull one part of the tire off of the
wheel, but that part fell back down when I moved the bar to a different
part.  I felt pretty stupid when, after lots of sweating and swearing,
I finally figured out that the trick was just to start in one spot and
then rotate the bar around the center post.  I probably struggled with
the first tire for more than a half hour.  The next two only took me
about 5 minutes each, if that.  So far, so good.

Next up was a
set of 14" Porsche 924 rims that I hope to put on one of my Alpines.
One of the rims (I have 5) is a little beat, so I decided to learn on
it.  My plan was to do this one, then bolt the changer to the floor for
the rest.  However, nothing I do seems to break the rim free.  The bead
breaker forces the tire down a bit, then slips right off without breaking the
bead.  I've
tried multiple angles with the breaker and both sides of the tire, but
cannot budge it.  I've tried it lubed with dish soap and dry, but no
difference.  Just to be safe, I tried one of the other Porsche wheels too,
but with the same result.  Unless I am doing something wrong - a
definite possibility given my experience removing the first tire -
nothing I do is going to safely break the bead.

I'm definitely
giving up for the day (whoever said it was a good upper body workout
wasn't kidding!), probably for good.  I have some time off over Xmas; I
suspect that will be a good time to throw the rims in the back of the
truck and go shopping for a good deal on removing the tires.

Lets see: three tires dismounted for $40.  Not quite a good deal.

Jim

> From: jandkstone99 at msn.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 21:03:30 -0500
> Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire Changer
>
> I currently have 9 wheels with trash tires taking up space in my garage.
> Someday I'll get around to selling the ones I don't want, but for now I'd
like
> to get rid of the tires and store the wheels in less space.  I can take
them
> all to a tire place, but as I recall, they get about $10/wheel for removing
> tires, plus the fee for recycling them.  For $50, I'm thinking about buying
an
> HF tire changer
> (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34542)
and
> doing the work myself.  I can then easily take them to the recycling
center,
> although I don't know if there is a consumer charge for turning them in.
>
> Has anyone ever used one of these or one like it?  Is it more trouble than
its
> worth?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Tue Dec 15 18:12:18 2009
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:12:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3CAC47C393E0452AB4F59F423DB124E1@Digilink1>

Get a long piece of pipe to slip over the handle of the bead breaker to use
as a "cheater".....longer handle = greater leverage.

From robolane at sbcglobal.net  Tue Dec 15 21:28:15 2009
From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (ROBERT LANE)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:28:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
Message-ID: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I feel your pain.  I had the same problem braking the beds on some really old tires and wheels.  One of the problems is those old tires sidewalls are really soft and that lets the breaker angle to slide.  I ended up driving my truck up on the tires just as close to the wheel as possible.  I think  I left the truck parked on the tire and jumped on, or drove a breaker bar between the tire and wheel next to the truck wheel, It finally got the beads broke down.  I eventually bought a breaker tool that hooks on on the wheel on the opposite side of the wheel from the bead breaker.  It is not  perfect but gets the job done.  I have contiplated chaining the wheel to the upright post of the changer to keep the wheel from scooting away.

 

CATCH YOU LATER,
     ROBO

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Dec 16 07:24:52 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:24:52 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
In-Reply-To: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>

At some point, my frugal/cheap nature has to give up, and I think driving over
the tires is past that point.  But, it is a thought....  A special breaker
tool is probably the way to go, but I am not sure I want to invest any more
money in this project.

More lube might help (thanks Roland), but it will also "help" the breaker slip
off the the tire, which I think is the main problem.  And, I don't think it is
leverage either (thanks Gerald) , although an extension can't hurt if I can
figure out how to keep the breaker from slipping.  Which makes me think of
something relatively simple that might do it: what if I drilled a pilot hole
in the sidewall right below where the breaker contacts the rim and screwed a
lag bolt in the sidewall to keep the breaker from slipping?  That might allow
me to get the leverage I need to break the bead.

Unless someone can think a reason why this is a really dumb idea, I'll give it
a try over the weekend and report back.

> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:28:15 -0800
> From: robolane at sbcglobal.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
>
> I feel your pain.  I had the same problem braking the beds on some really
old tires and wheels.  One of the problems is those old tires sidewalls are
really soft and that lets the breaker angle to slide.  I ended up driving my
truck up on the tires just as close to the wheel as possible.  I think  I left
the truck parked on the tire and jumped on, or drove a breaker bar between the
tire and wheel next to the truck wheel, It finally got the beads broke down.
I eventually bought a breaker tool that hooks on on the wheel on the opposite
side of the wheel from the bead breaker.  It is not  perfect but gets the job
done.  I have contiplated chaining the wheel to the upright post of the
changer to keep the wheel from scooting away.
>
>
>
> CATCH YOU LATER,
>      ROBO
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Dec 16 07:29:58 2009
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:29:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0912160926500.5418@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Jim Stone wrote:
> Next up was a set of 14" Porsche 924 rims that I hope to put on one of 
> my Alpines. One of the rims (I have 5) is a little beat, so I decided to 
> learn on it.  My plan was to do this one, then bolt the changer to the 
> floor for the rest.  However, nothing I do seems to break the rim free. 
> The bead breaker forces the tire down a bit, then slips right off 
> without breaking the bead.  I've tried multiple angles with the breaker 
> and both sides of the tire, but cannot budge it.  I've tried it lubed 
> with dish soap and dry, but no difference.  Just to be safe, I tried one 
> of the other Porsche wheels too, but with the same result.  Unless I am 
> doing something wrong - a definite possibility given my experience 
> removing the first tire - nothing I do is going to safely break the 
> bead.
>
> I'm definitely giving up for the day (whoever said it was a good upper 
> body workout wasn't kidding!), probably for good.  I have some time off 
> over Xmas; I suspect that will be a good time to throw the rims in the 
> back of the truck and go shopping for a good deal on removing the tires.
>
> Lets see: three tires dismounted for $40.  Not quite a good deal.

Caveat... My machine is a powered one.

If the bead breaker is slipping off without moving the bead at all, I'd be 
trying to figure out a way to give it more angle/more bite on the tire. 
You want the shoe part of the bead breaker right up against the rim (even 
stuffed under it a bit), to help it move the bead on the rim, rather than 
just bending the sidewall.

Three tires dismounted for $40 isn't a great deal, true.  But the upper 
body workout isn't a bad thing, and its probably worth $40 to get the 
experience.

Mark

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Dec 16 08:55:33 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:55:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
References: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FF79B32BD3784B2A8CCD07390BD33809@mde.state.md.us>

Well, like I said, I've done upwards of about a hundred tires with my HF 
tire changer.

To bust the bead, kick the toe of the breaker against the rim as you push 
down, and keep it there.

Not sure how you didn't realize that the tire changer bar goes around the 
rim, but at least now you do.

From marka at maracing.com  Wed Dec 16 09:17:30 2009
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:17:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
References: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0912161115220.7976@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Jim Stone wrote:
> More lube might help (thanks Roland), but it will also "help" the 
> breaker slip off the the tire, which I think is the main problem.  And, 
> I don't think it is leverage either (thanks Gerald) , although an 
> extension can't hurt if I can figure out how to keep the breaker from 
> slipping.  Which makes me think of something relatively simple that 
> might do it: what if I drilled a pilot hole in the sidewall right below 
> where the breaker contacts the rim and screwed a lag bolt in the 
> sidewall to keep the breaker from slipping?  That might allow me to get 
> the leverage I need to break the bead.

You certainly don't want lube there.  There's no way to get lube to the 
place it needs to be without breaking the bead.  :-)

Drilling the hole and sticking something in it that would grab it would 
work, but seems pretty high on the PITA front.  Plus it obviously destroys 
the tire, which I often don't want to do.

> Unless someone can think a reason why this is a really dumb idea, I'll 
> give it a try over the weekend and report back.

Only downside I see is wrecking the tire, which probably doesn't matter 
for you.  I'd say to give it a go.

Mark

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Dec 16 09:31:10 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:31:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
References: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0KUR00N1B77Y45I0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Might work.  It just feels so wrong, though.  Kind of like cutting 
down a tree to trim the branches you couldn't reach near the top.

At 09:24 AM 12/16/2009, Jim Stone wrote:
>Which makes me think of
>something relatively simple that might do it: what if I drilled a pilot hole
>in the sidewall right below where the breaker contacts the rim and screwed a
>lag bolt in the sidewall to keep the breaker from slipping?  That might allow
>me to get the leverage I need to break the bead.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 09:44:09 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:44:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <FF79B32BD3784B2A8CCD07390BD33809@mde.state.md.us>
References: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>
	<FF79B32BD3784B2A8CCD07390BD33809@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912160844n5c176d8bu405fcec8458bd37c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Nolan <opposumking at verizon.net> wrote:

> Well, like I said, I've done upwards of about a hundred tires with my HF
> tire changer.
>
> To bust the bead, kick the toe of the breaker against the rim as you push
> down, and keep it there.
>
> YOu need a hammer.  a bead breaking hammer, not just a random lump.




> Not sure how you didn't realize that the tire changer bar goes around the
> rim, but at least now you do.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Dec 16 10:26:51 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:26:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3A.0D.01567.C58192B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> The
> first thing I learned is the the instructions were really, really bad,

You got instructions?  I didn't.

>  The bead
> breaker forces the tire down a bit, then slips right off 
> without breaking the bead. 

My HF unit has several adjustment holes for the bead breaker arm, to suit
tire & wheel diameter & width.  With the correct adjustment, leaning on the
bar applies force not only downwards but also towards the center of the
wheel, to keep the breaker from slipping off.  Note that there is also a
bump on the foot of the changer, that the wheel should hook over (so the
wheel doesn't slip).

I don't recall the details offhand, but ISTR I had to add an adjustment hole
to suit my 15 x 6 Triumph rims.  Also added a stiffening brace between the
arms.  With the modifications, mine never slips off (though I do sometimes
have trouble with the bead breaker slipping down between the bead & rim).
However, with really stubborn tires, I have found it necessary to stick a
pry bar in before rotating the tire, to hold the broken portion of the bead
away from the rim.  That's another point, you can't always break the bead
completely in one go, sometimes you have to work your way around the rim
moving it down just a little bit at a time.

> and go shopping for a good deal on removing the tires.

FWIW, the local Wal-Mart did it for free, once.  But when I went back with
the other pair of rims, they refused to do them at all.  I guess I should
have asked for the name of the first mechanic!

Randall

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Dec 16 12:48:01 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:48:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
References: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A2510DC26DE14571849C5C1BA686A96F@behavioral.com>

Any way to keep the piece from slipping down the tire - like maybe put it as 
tight against the rim as possible and then a nylon loading strap of some 
kind to keep it from moving away from the rim? 

From nick at landform.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 12:51:25 2009
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:51:25 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40912160844n5c176d8bu405fcec8458bd37c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL115-W30B898B535E114B7726A57CC880@phx.gbl>
	<FF79B32BD3784B2A8CCD07390BD33809@mde.state.md.us>
	<2400a5d40912160844n5c176d8bu405fcec8458bd37c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B293A3D.10200@landform.co.uk>

David Scheidt wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Nolan <opposumking at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>   
>> Well, like I said, I've done upwards of about a hundred tires with my HF
>> tire changer.
>>
>> To bust the bead, kick the toe of the breaker against the rim as you push
>> down, and keep it there.
>>
>> YOu need a hammer.  a bead breaking hammer, not just a random lump.
>>     
>
>   
This tool does the job with a bead breaker attachment:

http://www.drivall.com/fencingtools/roadallbreaking.htm

Good exercise on a cold morning...

Nick Brearley

From sdillen at telus.net  Wed Dec 16 17:24:41 2009
From: sdillen at telus.net (Steve Dillen)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:24:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
References: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4B297A49.6050902@telus.net>

This sounds like a fairly desperate measure....and something that I'd
only try about 10 minutes before I dragged the sawzall and an angle
grinder to the scene of the crime.

My changer has three sets of adjustment holes in the bead breaker.  Try
to adjust it such that the downward force on the breaker bar lever
results in about a 45 degree angle of force on the bead-breaker
"foot"....forcing the foot apply downward pressure right at the rim.  
Lube won't help much because it won't be getting to the part that's
"stuck".  I've also used a prybar (Stanley Wonder Bar style....those
with a really wide/flat claw) to help get the bead to start moving. 
Once you get a segment of the bead to loosen off, work around the rim
from there....rotating the rim a few inches at a time and things will
start to move.

....looks like others have answered along these same lines before I got
the chance to hit send.

Steve Dillen
Maple Ridge, BC

Jim Stone wrote:
> Which makes me think of
> something relatively simple that might do it: what if I drilled a pilot hole
> in the sidewall right below where the breaker contacts the rim and screwed a
> lag bolt in the sidewall to keep the breaker from slipping?  That might allow
> me to get the leverage I need to break the bead.

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 16 18:02:15 2009
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:02:15 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Tire changer.
In-Reply-To: <4B297A49.6050902@telus.net>
References: <873323.74150.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL115-W7A50096597E2E051911F9CC870@phx.gbl>
	<4B297A49.6050902@telus.net>
Message-ID: <ce0ji5lpuqvuf79oisagfln1c55d8m24b3@4ax.com>

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it :-)
It's the same principle as when we use penetrant on frozen bolts and
nuts.  If it works on bolts it should (and in my experience does) work
on tire beads.  Not fast, usually, and neither is Kroil on bolts.

With a tire changer, working the bead breaker flexes the bead and
helps the lube penetrate.

If a bead is stuck, it probably isn't stuck evenly over every square
millimeter of its surface and the lube will work in via any
opportunity.

-Roland
a somewhat successful user of the HF Tire-Changer

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:24:41 -0800, you wrote:

::Lube won't help much because it won't be getting to the part that's
::"stuck".  I'

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Dec 16 18:13:45 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 05:43:45 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <FF79B32BD3784B2A8CCD07390BD33809@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <OF00549F7D.9E6A9BA0-ON6425768F.0006C830-6425768F.00072090@mail.megageek.com>

I agree with Nolan.  For the price of the changer, I got my money's worth 
and then some.  One note, the problem you are having breaking the bead is 
one I've seen a few times.  There are no easy answers, just keep adjusting 
the angle until you get it to break.

I do have one question for the list...

Has anyone seen the new "hybrid" spare tire that Mercedes uses?  It's a 
tire that collapses down on itself when deflated, but with a compressor 
(included), the tire expands to a full size spare.  It's an amazing tire. 
I had to mount one of those once and it was a b*tch.  But I was able to 
get it with the HF tire changer.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



"Nolan" <opposumking at verizon.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/16/2009 20:28

To
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer






Well, like I said, I've done upwards of about a hundred tires with my HF 
tire changer.

To bust the bead, kick the toe of the breaker against the rim as you push 
down, and keep it there.

Not sure how you didn't realize that the tire changer bar goes around the 
rim, but at least now you do.
_______________________________________________

From bottorff25 at verizon.net  Wed Dec 16 19:25:54 2009
From: bottorff25 at verizon.net (bottorff25 at verizon.net)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:25:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] UPDATE: HF Tire Changer
Message-ID: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>


From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Dec 17 07:39:59 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:39:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>

Bead breaking
Keep that shoe up in the bead.  If it's down squishing the sidewall, it 
won't break the bead.  Put it right up against the rim edge and lightly push 
down.  The tire sidewall will roll away from the rim a bit, and the shoe 
tends to slip on the sidewall away from the rim.  Kick/hit/hammer it back 
against the rim.  Work it under the rim lip as you keep pushing down.  It's 
not particularly hard to do, but it's crucual for getting the shoe to 
actually push the bead off, and not simply squish the sidewall.  Press 
straight down.  There's a lot of slop in this tool, and it's easy to get it 
cocked sideways.  Do that and the arms can bend.  So work straight down.

Tire dismounting.
Look at your tire tool and use the end that looks like a bent spoon.  Keep 
the tire bead pressed down into the center valley of the rim.  Reach into 
the tire with the tool bar, flip the bar up and over, curling the tire bead 
up over the rim,.  Notice that the groove in the bent spoon fits your rim 
lip perfectly.  Now pull the bar against the center post of the machine and 
walk around the machine, walking the tire bead up off the rim.  Walking 
around the machine is why you need it fixed to the ground.  You cannot walk 
around the machine with it mounted on a board.

Tire mounting
Look at your tire tool and use the end that looks like a defective ball peen 
hammer.  The hook side goes on the rim, the wedge side slides the tire bead 
down into the rim.  Notice that the wedge will only work if you go 
clockwise.   Drop the tire down onto the rim, twist it a little, and put the 
ball peen hammer end of the tool in there to finish the job.  As you walk 
the tool around (in a clockwise direction), press the tire bead down into 
the hollow valley of the center of the rim.  A second set of hands is 
helpful for this, but it can be done solo.  You've got to do this, or else 
the tire will jam.  If you force a jammed tire, you can tear the bead. 
Walking around the machine is why you need it fixed to the ground.  You 
cannot walk around the machine with it mounted on a board 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Dec 17 08:23:11 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:23:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>
	<7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>

I use the HF tire changer with their motorcycle adapter. Bike shops charge 
full retail prices for new tires and ridiculous fees to change/balance 
tires. It only take 1-2 MC tires (~ 10-15K miles/tires...) to have the HF 
unit become 'free'.

Here's a U-tube video (no, it ain't me) of the HF tire changer in use for a 
small auto tire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LAABOgXU1s

Here's one with the MC tire adapter. (again, not me)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7546109776315225781

The MC tire adapter is a 'rim clamp' design. I covered the rim clamps with 
the plastic dip stuff sold for tool handles. Prevents scratching the rims. 
The black bar shown in the second video is NOT the one that comes with the 
HF adapter. It looks like a custom made tool with a hard plastic shoe on the 
end that slides around the rim. Again, avoids scratching the rim. (I have 
such a tool - a 'group buy' through an on-line MC forum.)

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell 

From battmain at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 17 10:36:01 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:36:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>
	<7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>
	<429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <39604.88689.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I want to see him do "two minutes flat" with a race
tire. It's not possible. :)

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



________________________________
From: Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
To: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thu, December 17, 2009 10:23:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer

I use the HF tire changer with their motorcycle adapter. Bike shops charge full retail prices for new tires and ridiculous fees to change/balance tires. It only take 1-2 MC tires (~ 10-15K miles/tires...) to have the HF unit become 'free'.

Here's a U-tube video (no, it ain't me) of the HF tire changer in use for a small auto tire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LAABOgXU1s

(snip)

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Dec 17 11:11:40 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:11:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <39604.88689.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net><7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us><429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
	<39604.88689.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AF295E0719974318813484E315E85001@EricJRussellPC>

----- Original Message ----- 

>I want to see him do "two minutes flat" with a race
> tire. It's not possible. :)
>
> Brian

Are you comparing a $2000+ tire changing machine to a $59 HF manual tool?

It takes me ~ 15 minutes to change a MC tire. Versus removing the wheel, 
driving to a MC shop, leaving it for them to work on later, then coming back 
the next day to pick it up and having to pay ~ $25 (each). And most shops 
will not mount tires bought on-line but instead want to sell you a tire at 
full retail. On-line prices are 25-50% less including shipping. (MC tires 
run ~ $100-$150 each and typically last 10K-15K miles.)

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Dec 17 18:18:56 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:18:56 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>,
	<7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>,
	<429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <COL115-W444003D71709332DE97CE7CC850@phx.gbl>

Thanks for the tips and the video.  I am almost looking forward to trying
again this weekend!

> From: ejrussell at mebtel.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:23:11 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
>
> I use the HF tire changer with their motorcycle adapter. Bike shops charge
> full retail prices for new tires and ridiculous fees to change/balance
> tires. It only take 1-2 MC tires (~ 10-15K miles/tires...) to have the HF
> unit become 'free'.
>
> Here's a U-tube video (no, it ain't me) of the HF tire changer in use for a
> small auto tire.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LAABOgXU1s
>
> Here's one with the MC tire adapter. (again, not me)
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7546109776315225781
>
> The MC tire adapter is a 'rim clamp' design. I covered the rim clamps with
> the plastic dip stuff sold for tool handles. Prevents scratching the rims.
> The black bar shown in the second video is NOT the one that comes with the
> HF adapter. It looks like a custom made tool with a hard plastic shoe on the
> end that slides around the rim. Again, avoids scratching the rim. (I have
> such a tool - a 'group buy' through an on-line MC forum.)
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
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From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 17 20:29:43 2009
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:29:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W444003D71709332DE97CE7CC850@phx.gbl>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>,
	<7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>,
	<429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
	<COL115-W444003D71709332DE97CE7CC850@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <04b901ca7f92$572c6340$058529c0$@net>

So how do you guys handle the balancing?


> I use the HF tire changer with their motorcycle adapter. Bike shops charge
> full retail prices for new tires and ridiculous fees to change/balance
> tires. It only take 1-2 MC tires (~ 10-15K miles/tires...) to have the HF
> unit become 'free'.

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Thu Dec 17 20:46:54 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:46:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <04b901ca7f92$572c6340$058529c0$@net>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>,
	<7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>,
	<429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
	<COL115-W444003D71709332DE97CE7CC850@phx.gbl>
	<04b901ca7f92$572c6340$058529c0$@net>
Message-ID: <4B2AFB2E.1020507@verizon.net>

I don't know about the car guys, but most of the motorcycle guys use 
some variation of static balancing on a stand made with a few small ball 
bearings or knife edges.  I do, anyway.

Dave C

Ron Schmittou wrote:
> So how do you guys handle the balancing?
>
>
>> I use the HF tire changer with their motorcycle adapter. Bike shops charge
>> full retail prices for new tires and ridiculous fees to change/balance
>> tires. It only take 1-2 MC tires (~ 10-15K miles/tires...) to have the HF
>> unit become 'free'.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From sdillen at telus.net  Thu Dec 17 21:01:19 2009
From: sdillen at telus.net (Steve Dillen)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:01:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <04b901ca7f92$572c6340$058529c0$@net>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>,
	<7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>,
	<429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
	<COL115-W444003D71709332DE97CE7CC850@phx.gbl>
	<04b901ca7f92$572c6340$058529c0$@net>
Message-ID: <4B2AFE8F.6070403@telus.net>


From rolds at plausa.com  Fri Dec 18 04:28:47 2009
From: rolds at plausa.com (Ron Olds)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:28:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
Message-ID: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>

I would like to ask the group for advise on toilets.  I am always amazed
at the amount of knowledge out there when it comes to about anything.



I am looking at replacing some old toilets in the house with the new
ones which use less water.  I k now some of the new ones are not very
effective when it gets down to what they need to do while others work
very well.  Does anyone have any recommendations of which ones work well
or which ones to stay away from.  I don't want to buy a piece of crap I
just want to get rid...



Thanks for the help and happy holidays to everyone.



Ronald Olds

Sales Manager

Plasser American Corporation

PO Box 5464

2001 Myers Road

Chesapeake, VA 23324-0464



Phone  (757) 543-3526

Cell      (630) 240-0818

Fax      (757) 494-7186



The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may
be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for
the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or
any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews,
semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is
expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Dec 18 05:25:10 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:25:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
Message-ID: <DCD0A138-F095-4E4D-A1CD-E7F569730A4B@groupwbench.org>

On Dec 18, 2009, at 6:28 AM, Ron Olds wrote:
>
>
> I am looking at replacing some old toilets in the house with the new
> ones which use less water.  I k now some of the new ones are not very
> effective when it gets down to what they need to do while others work
> very well.  Does anyone have any recommendations of which ones work  
> well
> or which ones to stay away from.  I don't want to buy a piece of  
> crap I
> just want to get rid...

I have installed Kohler Wellworths in 4 houses and they have never  
given me a problem. Relatively cheap too and available at Home Depot.  
I like the extended bowl as the standard ones are bit short but the  
mechanics are the same. I put a Kohler Memoirs toilet in another house  
and it worked 98% as well, but it fit the decor much better.

A friend installed Toto in her house and it worked ok, but used more  
water for suction than it did for bowl rinsing and I didn't think it  
did a good job at the latter. The seat closing damper was nifty  
though, no more SLAM at 3am! Wouldn't be surprised if these were now  
retrofittable.

jim

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Dec 18 05:33:56 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:33:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA. COM>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20091218073034.02103268@cox.net>

At 06:28 AM 12/18/2009, Ron Olds wrote:

 >I am looking at replacing some old toilets in the house with the 
new ones which
 >use less water.  I k now some of the new ones are not very effective when it
 >gets down to what they need to do while others work very well.  Does anyone
 >have any recommendations of which ones work well or which ones to stay away
 >from.  I don't want to buy a piece of crap I just want to get rid...

Ron,

I replaced mine years ago with the standard toilets from the Box 
stores.  I think
they are American Standard, and I believe they ran under $100 - say 10 yrs ago.

They work well most of the time, but they due clog often, say at least once a
month.

I know they make some power flush toilets, but I've never messed with them.
Not sure how much they run either.  But a plunger as an accessory for each
toilet, my be a lot cheaper than trying to get one of the power flushers. :)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Dec 18 06:33:08 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 08:33:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
Message-ID: <4B2B8494.8050706@xxiii.com>

Ron Olds wrote:
> I would like to ask the group for advise on toilets.  I am always amazed
> at the amount of knowledge out there when it comes to about anything.

Glad you asked.  There is only one thing you need to know:  TOTO makes 
awesome toilets!  All others suck.  Yeah, even Koheler (sp?) and other 
expensive stuff.  Sub $100 "builder grade" toilets from big-box stores 
REALLY SUCK.

What's Toto?  Originally a Japanese plumbing manufacturer, they have a 
huge plant and corporate offices near Atlanta, and other manufacturing 
all over the world.  Their products are actually engineered to work, 
conserve water, and last (!!!) rather than to be the cheapest thing a 
contractor can install in a new house.

Check out this Seattle area plumber's web site for good info.  The 
forums have lots of reviews and discussion on toilets, and initially it 
seems like "TMI" but you quickly realize it's good info you need to 
consider when buying important fixtures you'll be using every day  ;)
http://www.terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

My ca 2001 house had American Standard toilets.  They were made in 
Guatemala and had no standard parts.  They broke, clogged, stained and 
were generally junk.  This time 2008 I started shopping for 
replacements, and very thankfully did not buy the Koheler at Lowes.

I have a Toto Soiree in the master batch.  Expensive (~$550) but I 
needed a short non-standard rough in which limited choices.  Other bath 
has the Toto Gwyneth, now renamed "Drake II" which is now their 
mainstream home toilet that you can buy for about $350.  Probably good 
for your application.  Uses a 1.28 gallon flush, and flushes SO much 
better than other toilets using more.  And the cyclone bowl with no rim 
holes in easy to clean.

The list prices may look steep, but you can get them for about 40% off 
with a little haggling.  And lots of places sell them on ebay.  Would be 
glad to give ya more info, but I gotta get to work.

-Wayne

From mbarre at juno.com  Fri Dec 18 08:54:39 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:54:39 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
Message-ID: <20091218.105439.9583.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

John wrote:

>I am looking at replacing some old toilets in the house with the new ones
which
>use less water.
Too bad I'm not closer to you as I have a coworker that covets the old "full
flush" toilets.  He goes to great lengths to keep them and even moved them the
last time he moved to a different house!
Matt
____________________________________________________________
Weight Loss Program
Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=6frlVscGwZKNZvWkVgfZtQAAJ1Bdm0m
GPxpgr-kLaQS4Hyu2AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA=

From pj_thomas at comcast.net  Fri Dec 18 09:17:47 2009
From: pj_thomas at comcast.net (Peter J. Thomas)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:17:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
Message-ID: <4B2BAB2B.2070804@comcast.net>

On 12/18/2009 6:28 AM, Ron Olds wrote:
> I would like to ask the group for advise on toilets.  I am always amazed
> at the amount of knowledge out there when it comes to about anything.
>
>
>
> I am looking at replacing some old toilets in the house with the new
> ones which use less water.  I k now some of the new ones are not very
> effective when it gets down to what they need to do while others work
> very well.  Does anyone have any recommendations of which ones work well
> or which ones to stay away from.  I don't want to buy a piece of crap I
> just want to get rid...
>
>
>
> Thanks for the help and happy holidays to everyone.
>    

Bought a Jacuzzi from one of the big box stores: cheap, decent look, low 
water use (1.1 gal), great flush.  Replaced a contractor grade 1.6 gal 
that clogged often.  The new toilet is taller than most and qualifies as 
a handicap but not as tall as most handicap toilets I've seen.  I like 
the added height: more comfortable sitting and easier to hit standing.  
The women in the house don't care for the extra height.

Down side is very little water in the bowl for holding solids.  Flushes 
flawless but may need extra rinsing after a heavy session.  This is 
probably true for most 1.1 gal toilets.

Most toilets nowadays have a flush rating and class 5 is the best.  
Would not buy anything else.


> Ronald Olds
>
> Sales Manager
>
> Plasser American Corporation
>
> PO Box 5464
>
> 2001 Myers Road
>
> Chesapeake, VA 23324-0464
>
>
>
> Phone  (757) 543-3526
>
> Cell      (630) 240-0818
>
> Fax      (757) 494-7186
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may
> be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for
> the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or
> any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews,
> semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is
> expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
> notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_thomas at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From nases at verizon.net  Fri Dec 18 09:17:41 2009
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:17:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <4B2B8494.8050706@xxiii.com>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
	<4B2B8494.8050706@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <EA6DC9BA-1D44-4D45-B634-6A14689AB5BC@verizon.net>

I would like to install a low flow but I'm rural with a standard system.  Also
my downstairs bathroom always had a lazy flush.  Should I stay away from the
water saver type because of either of these situations?

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Dec 18, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Wayne wrote:

> Ron Olds wrote:
>> I would like to ask the group for advise on toilets.  I am always amazed
>> at the amount of knowledge out there when it comes to about anything.
>
> Glad you asked.  There is only one thing you need to know:  TOTO makes
awesome toilets!  All others suck.  Yeah, even Koheler (sp?) and other
expensive stuff.  Sub $100 "builder grade" toilets from big-box stores REALLY
SUCK.

From wamrazing at gmail.com  Fri Dec 18 09:40:16 2009
From: wamrazing at gmail.com (Storm Field)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:40:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <4B2B8494.8050706@xxiii.com>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
	<4B2B8494.8050706@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <53e51deb0912180840k5f43df9ds52f01e0caee9cd12@mail.gmail.com>

Have to agree with Wayne. We did a major renovation...used Kohler products
and had and continue to have nothing but problems. We didn't buy from big
box stores, got products from upscale retailer and they tried to help
because we had placed such a big order but only thing we could do was keep
replacing parts until we could get them all operating.
By comparison, recently replaced American Standard units at local fire
department building with Toto toilets and they worked perfectly from the
moment they were put in. Plumbers love them because it's a no headache, no
call back installation. These Totos get far more abuse/use than the ones in
my home and continue to work flawlessly.
I will never...NEVER, buy any Kohler products again.
Good luck,
Storm

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> Ron Olds wrote:
>
>> I would like to ask the group for advise on toilets.  I am always amazed
>> at the amount of knowledge out there when it comes to about anything.
>>
>
> Glad you asked.  There is only one thing you need to know:  TOTO makes
> awesome toilets!  All others suck.  Yeah, even Koheler (sp?) and other
> expensive stuff.  Sub $100 "builder grade" toilets from big-box stores
> REALLY SUCK.
>
> What's Toto?  Originally a Japanese plumbing manufacturer, they have a huge
> plant and corporate offices near Atlanta, and other manufacturing all over
> the world.  Their products are actually engineered to work, conserve water,
> and last (!!!) rather than to be the cheapest thing a contractor can install
> in a new house.
>
> Check out this Seattle area plumber's web site for good info.  The forums
> have lots of reviews and discussion on toilets, and initially it seems like
> "TMI" but you quickly realize it's good info you need to consider when
> buying important fixtures you'll be using every day  ;)
> http://www.terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm
> http://www.terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
>
> My ca 2001 house had American Standard toilets.  They were made in
> Guatemala and had no standard parts.  They broke, clogged, stained and were
> generally junk.  This time 2008 I started shopping for replacements, and
> very thankfully did not buy the Koheler at Lowes.
>
> I have a Toto Soiree in the master batch.  Expensive (~$550) but I needed a
> short non-standard rough in which limited choices.  Other bath has the Toto
> Gwyneth, now renamed "Drake II" which is now their mainstream home toilet
> that you can buy for about $350.  Probably good for your application.  Uses
> a 1.28 gallon flush, and flushes SO much better than other toilets using
> more.  And the cyclone bowl with no rim holes in easy to clean.
>
> The list prices may look steep, but you can get them for about 40% off with
> a little haggling.  And lots of places sell them on ebay.  Would be glad to
> give ya more info, but I gotta get to work.
>
> -Wayne
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wamrazing at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From battmain at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 18 10:31:19 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:31:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <AF295E0719974318813484E315E85001@EricJRussellPC>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net><7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us><429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC>
	<39604.88689.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<AF295E0719974318813484E315E85001@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <149526.84715.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Not comparing anything, but just making fun of his comments.
You see, the demo tire in the video was a soft sided tire. If it 
were a race tire with stiff sidewalls, it would take a little
longer than 10 minutes with a helper. (Not to mention multiple 
tire irons to get the bead in the proper position on the wheel.) I've
used the HF tool. I still have it.

Eventually, I'll have one of the real tire changing machines. I have
been keeping my eye on craigslist. The lower end coats go for
less than $500 here, but I've used those and had the crap scared 
outta' me when the wheel pin let go.  I'll wait for one that has 
the roller helper. Makes it much simpler. Also more expensive
too.

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



________________________________
From: Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
To: Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com>; shoptalk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
(snip)
 ----- Original Message ----- 
> I want to see him do "two minutes flat" with a race
> tire. It's not possible. :)
(snip)

Are you comparing a $2000+ tire changing machine to a $59 HF manual tool?

It takes me ~ 15 minutes to change a MC tire. Versus removing the wheel, driving to a MC shop, leaving it for them to work on later, then coming back the next day to pick it up and having to pay ~ $25 (each). And most shops will not mount tires bought on-line but instead want to sell you a tire at full retail. On-line prices are 25-50% less including shipping. (MC tires run ~ $100-$150 each and typically last 10K-15K miles.)
(snip)

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Dec 18 10:53:53 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:53:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <04b901ca7f92$572c6340$058529c0$@net>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net>,
	<7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us>,
	<429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC><COL115-W444003D71709332DE97CE7CC850@phx.gbl>
	<04b901ca7f92$572c6340$058529c0$@net>
Message-ID: <0E878E9EE907499DB0429EF09B0EFC1B@EricJRussellPC>

Simply put - rest the wheel/tire assembly on a support that will allow it to 
rotate freely about its axle, find the heavy area & use small weights to 
balance it.

A full description with photos here: 
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/tire-changing.html
Commercial balancers are also available: 
http://www.marcparnes.com/Universal_Motorcycle_Wheel_Balancer.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBzviKTPMrg&feature=related

The first time I did it it seemed too easy. I took the wheel/tire I had 
balanced to a motorcycle shop and asked them to check it. They let me watch 
as it was put on their spin balancer. The guy told me it was practically 
perfect. The amount of weight his machine calculated as needing to improve 
it was too small to bother with.

An interesting factoid. If one first locates the heavy area of the wheel & 
then installs the tire with its light area aligned (they come with a small 
paint dot to indicate it), often little to no weight is needed.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Schmittou"

> So how do you guys handle the balancing?
>
>
>> I use the HF tire changer with their motorcycle adapter. Bike shops 
>> charge
>> full retail prices for new tires and ridiculous fees to change/balance
>> tires. It only take 1-2 MC tires (~ 10-15K miles/tires...) to have the HF
>> unit become 'free'.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Dec 18 11:06:59 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:06:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <149526.84715.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <1056902161.260942.1261016754591.JavaMail.root@vms244.mailsrvcs.net><7D3F2118D6434AC2A5AA891EB2F662BB@mde.state.md.us><429B79E032D24407AADDF13D5393969C@EricJRussellPC><39604.88689.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com><AF295E0719974318813484E315E85001@EricJRussellPC>
	<149526.84715.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703BC66DF@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

I've been quietly laughing at the various stories about changing tires.
You see, when I was young, I worked at a service station (we actually
waited on customers), and used to change tires all the time on a machine
that was not much more than the HF one.  It was just part of the job.

But the funniest was when one of the boss's friends came in and needed
to change some racing tires for his stock car.  It wouldn't fit the tire
changer, so they did it by hand.  A couple of rubber mallets, and a
couple of tire irons, some pounding and prying, and the racing tire was
off the rim.  Some more work, and the new tire was mounted.  It took
about as long as it would have taken on the machine (a lot more sweat
however).

Machine?  Machine?  We don't need no stinking machine...

Tim Mullen

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Fri Dec 18 11:21:29 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (dirtbeard at pacbell.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:21:29 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1261160496.4172.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

I do several (usually four) MC tire changes each year and use this balancer:

http://www.marcparnes.com/Universal_Motorcycle_Wheel_Balancer.htm

The bearings are virtually friction-free and you are able to get an almost perfect balance very quickly. Highly recommended!

------Original Message------
From: Eric J Russell
Sender: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
To: Ron Schmittou
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
Sent: Dec 18, 2009 9:53 AM

Simply put - rest the wheel/tire assembly on a support that will allow it to 
rotate freely about its axle, find the heavy area & use small weights to 
balance it.

A full description with photos here: 
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/tire-changing.html
Commercial balancers are also available: 
http://www.marcparnes.com/Universal_Motorcycle_Wheel_Balancer.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBzviKTPMrg&feature=related

The first time I did it it seemed too easy. I took the wheel/tire I had 
balanced to a motorcycle shop and asked them to check it. They let me watch 
as it was put on their spin balancer. The guy told me it was practically 
perfect. The amount of weight his machine calculated as needing to improve 
it was too small to bother with.

An interesting factoid. If one first locates the heavy area of the wheel & 
then installs the tire with its light area aligned (they come with a small 
paint dot to indicate it), often little to no weight is needed.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Schmittou"

> So how do you guys handle the balancing?
>
>
>> I use the HF tire changer with their motorcycle adapter. Bike shops 
>> charge
>> full retail prices for new tires and ridiculous fees to change/balance
>> tires. It only take 1-2 MC tires (~ 10-15K miles/tires...) to have the HF
>> unit become 'free'.
You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive


best,

Doug Shook (Blackberry)

323.286.6115

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Fri Dec 18 11:46:10 2009
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:46:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703BC66DF@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <C7510DF2.5B12%kennedybc@comcast.net>

I'm trying to remember what my dad did. I think he nailed a 2x4 to the barn
wall about a 6" from the floor, had a 6' pry bar and a short 2x4 or
something. I sort of remember laying the tire on the floor, laying the short
2x4 next to the bead, then using the pry bar to push down. I think we'd also
pound on the bead with a 3# hammer. If memory serves.
Brian K


On 12/18/09 10:06 AM, "Mullen, Tim (IS)" <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:

> I've been quietly laughing at the various stories about changing tires.
> You see, when I was young, I worked at a service station (we actually
> waited on customers), and used to change tires all the time on a machine
> that was not much more than the HF one.  It was just part of the job.
> 
> But the funniest was when one of the boss's friends came in and needed
> to change some racing tires for his stock car.  It wouldn't fit the tire
> changer, so they did it by hand.  A couple of rubber mallets, and a
> couple of tire irons, some pounding and prying, and the racing tire was
> off the rim.  Some more work, and the new tire was mounted.  It took
> about as long as it would have taken on the machine (a lot more sweat
> however).
> 
> Machine?  Machine?  We don't need no stinking machine...

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Dec 18 12:04:01 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:04:01 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
In-Reply-To: <20091218184303.99C6518799D@autox.team.net>
References: <20091218184303.99C6518799D@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <8CD5AB7821FD44EF9E5ACFAB2BC36FC4@jdnet.deere.com>

> I do several (usually four) MC tire changes each year and use 
> this balancer:
> 
> http://www.marcparnes.com/Universal_Motorcycle_Wheel_Balancer.htm

FWIW, Horrible Freight sells a similar unit:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98488

As usual, their quality control isn't the best; I probably should have
returned the first one I got as one of the bearings was stiff.  But I
cleaned it up instead.

-- Randall  

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Dec 18 15:15:05 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:15:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <53e51deb0912180840k5f43df9ds52f01e0caee9cd12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
	<4B2B8494.8050706@xxiii.com>
	<53e51deb0912180840k5f43df9ds52f01e0caee9cd12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B2BFEE9.40601@hornesystemstx.com>

Ron,

+1 for Toto. When I went looking for a toilet a few years ago I quickly 
ended up looking exclusively at Totos. My first criteria was as large a 
trap as I could find. Second was ADA height. My wife has medical 
problems that are controllable with medications, but they really plugs 
her up to the point where she can plug an old high water usage toilet 
about 50% of the time. Brings a whole new meaning to s**t a brick! With 
the Toto (Drake, I think) it only happens about once a month. I think 
the drake had something like a 2.5" trap, but it may be even larger. 
They also have a larger flapper to let the water out of the tank, I 
think it is at least 3".

If I have to purchase another toilet it will be a Toto with the largest 
trap I can find.

Peace,
Pat



Thusly spake Storm Field, On 12/18/2009 10:40 AM:
> Have to agree with Wayne. We did a major renovation...used Kohler products
> and had and continue to have nothing but problems. We didn't buy from big
> box stores, got products from upscale retailer and they tried to help
> because we had placed such a big order but only thing we could do was keep
> replacing parts until we could get them all operating.
> By comparison, recently replaced American Standard units at local fire
> department building with Toto toilets and they worked perfectly from the
> moment they were put in. Plumbers love them because it's a no headache, no
> call back installation. These Totos get far more abuse/use than the ones in
> my home and continue to work flawlessly.
> I will never...NEVER, buy any Kohler products again.
> Good luck,
> Storm
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Ron Olds wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I would like to ask the group for advise on toilets.  I am always amazed
>>> at the amount of knowledge out there when it comes to about anything.
>>>
>>>       
<snip>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Dec 18 22:28:48 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:58:48 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
Message-ID: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>

I want to thank you all for the links on tire changers and such.  Even 
though I've been doing it for quite sometimes, I picked up some neat tips.

My question is, do they make a static balancer for car tires that is as 
simple and accurate as the ones for motorcycles?  I'd love to find a way 
to balance a car tire as the weights come off my truck tires every now and 
then (rough use.)

Thanks.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Dec 18 23:08:15 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:08:15 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B2C6DCF.6040403@verizon.net>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> My question is, do they make a static balancer for car tires that is as
> simple and accurate as the ones for motorcycles?  I'd love to find a way
> to balance a car tire as the weights come off my truck tires every now and
> then (rough use.)

Motorcycle static wheel balancers use the axle to balance the wheel. 
You would have to fab up some kind of hub to axle fixture to use a 
rolling type of static balancer like motorcycles do.  However, I 
remember when bubble level balancers were the only game in town and they 
seemed to work ok.


> http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/product.jcw?nval=1101021470&statenval=1101021470&productId=2004035&shopid=100001&pageid=12&TID=8014524F&utm_source=Google_Product_Search&utm_medium=CSE&utm_content=product-14035G&zmam=73771597&zmas=18&zmac=129&zmap=14035G

> http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Wheel-Balancer-Balance-Anywhere/dp/B001IMJNHA/ref=pd_sbs_auto_1

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Dec 19 04:58:08 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 03:58:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <4B2C6DCF.6040403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <E8.75.01567.0DFBC2B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Motorcycle static wheel balancers use the axle to balance the wheel. 
> You would have to fab up some kind of hub to axle fixture to use a 
> rolling type of static balancer like motorcycles do.

Which might be as simple as a spare hub from the car in question.

>  However, I 
> remember when bubble level balancers were the only game in 
> town and they 
> seemed to work ok.

Indeed, a friend of mine who used to run a tire shop swore that they
actually work better than dynamic balancers.  When my motorhome had a shimmy
problem that no one else could solve; he put the front wheels on his bubble
balancer, took off about half the weights, and the problem disappeared.

Randall

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Dec 19 05:38:10 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:08:10 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <E8.75.01567.0DFBC2B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <OF28CCD3A3.0390BEEC-ON64257691.0045BB04-64257691.0045DA83@mail.megageek.com>

So these types of balancers can do the job safely?  If so, I'll add it to 
my Christmas list.  (Even though Santa doesn't seem to come to Afghanistan 
much!)  8>)

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



"Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/19/2009 16:53

To

cc
shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer






> Motorcycle static wheel balancers use the axle to balance the wheel. 
> You would have to fab up some kind of hub to axle fixture to use a 
> rolling type of static balancer like motorcycles do.

Which might be as simple as a spare hub from the car in question.

>  However, I 
> remember when bubble level balancers were the only game in 
> town and they 
> seemed to work ok.

Indeed, a friend of mine who used to run a tire shop swore that they
actually work better than dynamic balancers.  When my motorhome had a 
shimmy
problem that no one else could solve; he put the front wheels on his 
bubble
balancer, took off about half the weights, and the problem disappeared.

From arvidj at visi.com  Sat Dec 19 06:53:51 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 07:53:51 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
References: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>
	<4B2C6DCF.6040403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <78084FCF6A8D4BD3B0093A1B9B0DDC95@behavioral.com>

And Harbor Freight offers one ...

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=39741

as does Northern Tool along with some customer reviews ...

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47571_47571

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net>
To: <eric at megageek.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer


> eric at megageek.com wrote:
>> My question is, do they make a static balancer for car tires that is as
>> simple and accurate as the ones for motorcycles?  I'd love to find a way
>> to balance a car tire as the weights come off my truck tires every now 
>> and
>> then (rough use.)
>
> Motorcycle static wheel balancers use the axle to balance the wheel. You 
> would have to fab up some kind of hub to axle fixture to use a rolling 
> type of static balancer like motorcycles do.  However, I remember when 
> bubble level balancers were the only game in town and they seemed to work 
> ok.
>
>
>> http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/product.jcw?nval=1101021470&statenval=1101021470&productId=2004035&shopid=100001&pageid=12&TID=8014524F&utm_source=Google_Product_Search&utm_medium=CSE&utm_content=product-14035G&zmam=73771597&zmas=18&zmac=129&zmap=14035G
>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Wheel-Balancer-Balance-Anywhere/dp/B001IMJNHA/ref=pd_sbs_auto_1

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Dec 19 07:10:58 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:10:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <E8.75.01567.0DFBC2B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <4B2C6DCF.6040403@verizon.net>
	<E8.75.01567.0DFBC2B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912190610h693f98afjd48b2c1f106c673d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> > Motorcycle static wheel balancers use the axle to balance the wheel.
> > You would have to fab up some kind of hub to axle fixture to use a
> > rolling type of static balancer like motorcycles do.
>
> Which might be as simple as a spare hub from the car in question.
>
> >  However, I
> > remember when bubble level balancers were the only game in
> > town and they
> > seemed to work ok.
>
> Indeed, a friend of mine who used to run a tire shop swore that they
> actually work better than dynamic balancers.  When my motorhome had a
> shimmy
> problem that no one else could solve; he put the front wheels on his bubble
> balancer, took off about half the weights, and the problem disappeared.
>
>
Probable cause here is that your RV had lug-centered wheels.  On most cars
and light trucks, the wheels are located by the hub.  so the tire can be
spin balanced by mounting it on the cone adapter common to wheel balancers.
Some light trucks, and most medium duty and heavy duty ones (and an
increasing number of cars) have lug centered wheels.  The hole in the center
of the wheel isn't necessarily concentric with the lugs. (One of my
Land-Rover wheels has the center of the center hole a 1/4 inch away from the
center of the wheel.  Trying to balance it using the center hole simply
won't work.)  Depending on the wheel, you might get lucky if you use a cone
mounting.  Or you might not.  Until lug-centered wheels started showing up
on toyotas, many tire shops had no equipment to let them balance them.  (And
lots of techs *still* have no clue what this means.)

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From sdillen at telus.net  Sat Dec 19 09:13:51 2009
From: sdillen at telus.net (Steve Dillen)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:13:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4B2CFBBF.2030107@telus.net>

I gave up on using lead balance weights on the rims of my jeep as I'd
either tear the weights off on rocks or would end up spinning the tire
on the rim when removing debris that I picked up on the trail in the
bead (6psi offroad will do that.....)

For the last 3 years I've been running about 8-10 ounces of RV plumbing
antifreeze (not engine antifreeze!) in each tire instead of lead
weights.  A number of people in the offroad community here in BC are
running other internal weights (for example
http://www.innovativebalancing.com) to deal with balancing...same result
(I'm just cheap).  I've been happy with the results....typically I'll
get some minor wobble at about 10-15 mph and then everything smooths out
and is good. 

Steve Dillen
Maple Ridge, BC

eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
> My question is, do they make a static balancer for car tires that is as 
> simple and accurate as the ones for motorcycles?  I'd love to find a way 
> to balance a car tire as the weights come off my truck tires every now and 
> then (rough use.)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Dec 19 10:41:05 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:41:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40912190610h693f98afjd48b2c1f106c673d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A2.4F.04641.2301D2B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Probable cause here is that your RV had lug-centered wheels.  

The center hole being inaccurate might have been part of the problem, but
the previous tires had balanced OK when the same shop did them.  And the MH
hubs had a center spigot that the wheels fit snugly onto; on the rear hubs
the wheels fit over the bearing housing (full floating axle) tight enough to
be a bit difficult to get off when rusty.

I'm a little confused on the whole "lug centric" vs "hub centric" issue
anyway ... all of my cars have tapered seat lug nuts, meaning the nuts are
what pull the wheel into it's final position.  The fit between wheel & nut
is much tighter than between wheel and hub.  Dad even owned a Peugeot that
had no center hole!

The only truly "hub centric" wheels I have seen are Rudge splined British
wire wheels.

Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Dec 21 20:23:20 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:23:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Successfully using the HF Tire Changer
Message-ID: <COL115-W160BD116000354D6D7DB47CC810@phx.gbl>

I apologize if I am spamming the list, but I sent this note out on Saturday
and it never arrived in my inbox, so I have to assume it got hung up somewhere
in the ether and I really wanted to close the loop on this and thank everyone
who contributed.  So...

______________

Mission
Accomplished!  Thanks to all of the help from the Shop-Talk team, I now
have five Porsche rims sitting in my garage
rafters, rather than taking up room on my garage floor.  Following the
advice of the group, I was able to remove the tires today with relative
ease.  There were a couple of keys to making things work, all of which
I learned here.  The first was to adjust the breaker bar and the wheel
so that the bar was pushing down close to vertically, and then to make
certain the bar stayed as close as possible to the wheel rim.  The
second was to poor a little PB Blaster around each rim and letting that
soak a little while.  It really seemed to help.  Finally, I will also
add that finally bolting the changer to the floor made a big
difference.  Bolting it to a 2x6 was fine for the easy-to-remove 40
year old bias tires that were on the old Alpine wheels I had, but it
was part of the problem when it came to the larger Porsche wheels.

If
I ever do it again, I will definitely make a longer pry bar.  More
leverage would have helped.  I will also probably buy a set of the rim
protectors.  I made a few from the handle off an old plastic bottle
(again, following advice from this group), but ones that snapped on the
rims would have made life easier.

Eventually, I will want to
refinish them or have them refinished.  I am not sure yet which way to
go, but I know where to go to get the advice when I get to that point.

My thanks to everyone who posted their advice and recommendations.

Jim
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/

From wolfeb at verizon.net  Tue Dec 22 17:46:53 2009
From: wolfeb at verizon.net (wolfeb at verizon.net)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:46:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
Message-ID: <694650700.44726.1261529213899.JavaMail.root@vms170009.mailsrvcs.net>

/ZixhcN: Permission denied

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Dec 23 06:06:04 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:06:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
References: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <E4B9F16FC7914E578A41179D05439B61@mde.state.md.us>

I've got a bubble balancer.  They work.  A lot touchier than you'd expect 
for trying to get that optimal static balance.  The truck wheels are the 
most obnoxious to do.  Little car wheels are a lot easier.  I've never 
gotten the wheels as smoothly balanced with the bubble balancer as I can 
with a dynamic (spinning) balancer.

Does require me to have a bunch of lead weights around.  You can scrounge a 
goodly number of used ones from the parking lot of a tire store, 
particularly when they are closed and not inclined to hassle you for 
scrounging their parking lot for trash.

A bubble balancer does not address dynamic imbalance.  As in cockeyed weight 
balance problems.  So you tend to just guess and instead of placing a big 
weight on one side of the rim you'll split the difference and place half on 
each side of the rim.  Crossing your fingers may help.

Walmart offers lifetime balancing of tires for $7.50, and there's one nearby 
me.  My bubble balancer mostly gathers dust these days.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 12:28 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer


>I want to thank you all for the links on tire changers and such.  Even
> though I've been doing it for quite sometimes, I picked up some neat tips.
>
> My question is, do they make a static balancer for car tires that is as
> simple and accurate as the ones for motorcycles?  I'd love to find a way
> to balance a car tire as the weights come off my truck tires every now and
> then (rough use.)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Dec 23 09:23:19 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:23:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <E4B9F16FC7914E578A41179D05439B61@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <71.A0.01567.7F3423B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>

> Does require me to have a bunch of lead weights around.

FWIW, you really only need one size.  If you buy a box of 1 ounce weights,
you can simply use more than one when you need more weight; and cut them
down when you need less.

> Walmart offers lifetime balancing of tires for $7.50, 

Even on tires you bought somewhere else?

OTOH, after the local Walmart said my 15" tires were the wrong size because
the rims measured 16" lip-to-lip; I'm not sure I want them balancing my
tires <G>

Randall

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Dec 23 10:35:26 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:35:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <E4B9F16FC7914E578A41179D05439B61@mde.state.md.us>
References: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com>
	<E4B9F16FC7914E578A41179D05439B61@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703BC6ED6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Nolan
>
> I've got a bubble balancer.  They work.  A lot touchier than you'd
> expect for trying to get that optimal static balance.

Years ago (many, many years ago) I was taught how to balance tires on
the bubble balancer.  It always takes two weights.  Determine the "heavy
side", and then starting about 120 degrees from each side, place a
weight on the rim.  Adjust them evenly (move them both closer or farther
from the heavy side) until it's balanced.  Use a heavier or lighter
weight if you have to move too far from 120 degrees.  When you find the
balance point, hammer the weights into position (or stick them if you
are using the glue on type).  This process makes it easier to balance
the tires and minimizes any dynamic imbalance that you may be creating
by putting one heavy weight opposite the "heavy side".

Tim Mullen

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Dec 23 10:53:25 2009
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim (IS))
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:53:25 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703BC6ED6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <OF97698046.34C09493-ON64257691.001E55EB-64257691.001E8B79@mail.megageek.com><E4B9F16FC7914E578A41179D05439B61@mde.state.md.us>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703BC6ED6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79703BC6EEA@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

I wrote:

> It always takes two weights.

Come to think of it, if it was a wide tire, we used four weights - same
process, just half the weights on the outside of the rim, and half on
the inside.  It tended to minimize the dynamic balance problems.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 11:46:57 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:46:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Warning...Brake cleaner
Message-ID: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>

*Here's a scary article about what can happen*
*involving brake cleaner:*
!
http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

*Tony in Texas*

__._,_.___

.

__,_._,___

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Dec 23 11:56:36 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:56:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
References: <71.A0.01567.7F3423B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AD4BC36FA80946E69E866030073D601C@mde.state.md.us>

>> Walmart offers lifetime balancing of tires for $7.50,
>
> Even on tires you bought somewhere else?

Mmhmm.  They don't seem to care at all.  Their tires, my new tires in the 
trunk, used tires, etc.

Doesn't really seem to be a store specific thing either.  I've done this at 
a few different ones over the years.  Though some of the counter help is, 
ah, special.  But once it gets to the boys in back that actually use the 
tools, no problem.

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 23 12:09:15 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:09:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <71.A0.01567.7F3423B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
References: <71.A0.01567.7F3423B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <449930.4632.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Heh, my local walmart wouldn't do my racing tires. Told me the
brand new tires (with stickers) were too worn to safely put on the
wheel.Never mind the thread was above the few groves and above
the wear bar. The wheels weren't even on the car!  I went to another
Walmart and they did it.   Another time, they wouldn't let me use 
the torque wrench on the wheels due to safety issues. Huh?  It
took a pipe extension to remove the nuts and that's after they
used the torque tubes. Later on while checking the tires, I realized 
they sold me a lower load range tire for the truck. This was after I 
specified the load range. Grrr!  

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



________________________________
From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 11:23:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer

(snip)

(snip)

OTOH, after the local Walmart said my 15" tires were the wrong size because
the rims measured 16" lip-to-lip; I'm not sure I want them balancing my
tires <G>

(snip)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 12:54:32 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:54:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wheel Balancer
In-Reply-To: <449930.4632.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <71.A0.01567.7F3423B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
	<449930.4632.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912231154r1fddced9m2db8463fa600b282@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Heh, my local walmart wouldn't do my racing tires. Told me the
> brand new tires (with stickers) were too worn to safely put on the
> wheel.Never mind the thread was above the few groves and above
> the wear bar. The wheels weren't even on the car!  I went to another
> Walmart and they did it.   Another time, they wouldn't let me use
> the torque wrench on the wheels due to safety issues. Huh?  It
> took a pipe extension to remove the nuts and that's after they
> used the torque tubes. Later on while checking the tires, I realized
> they sold me a lower load range tire for the truck. This was after I
> specified the load range. Grrr!
>
>
You buy from wal-mart, you get what you pay for.  (I bought a battery for my
tractor from sam's last summer.  Went to put it in, and saw the date
sticker: june 2003.  Yeah, not rotating stock is one way to keep costs
down!.  )  A battery from the autoparts place was 37 cents more, and only a
month old.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Wed Dec 23 14:58:11 2009
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:58:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Warning...Brake cleaner
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360912231046k470fd3afq653f78719cedeae1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2E8E485-1DCE-464D-AD6F-7A0D1C59431B@te-motorworks.com>

That is a good reminder to think carefully about all of the different
machinery / tools / chemicals  we've gotten comfortable enough with to take
for granted.

I post articles from time to time on the PopSci DIY blog, so I just put up a
short post about this.  Hopefully this will counteract some of the bad ideas
I've given people.

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2009-12/dont-get-careless

-vin


On Dec 23, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:

> *Here's a scary article about what can happen*
> *involving brake cleaner:*
> !
> http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm
>
> *Tony in Texas*
>
> __._,_.___
>
> .
>
> __,_._,___
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Sat Dec 26 13:32:30 2009
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:32:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Silverado HD2500  Service Brake System
Message-ID: <552511.11595.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I own a 2003 Chevy Silverado HD2500 with 60,000 miles, the following DIC message came on today "Service Brake System". The brakes work great.  Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I should start looking for the cause of the problem.

Thanks for the help.

Frank V.  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Dec 26 14:07:54 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 16:07:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Silverado HD2500  Service Brake System
In-Reply-To: <552511.11595.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <552511.11595.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48360E600EA44C5D9F306CE363601433@EricJRussellPC>

My guess (just a guess) is it is triggered by the mileage. Did it just turn 
60,000 miles?

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 

>I own a 2003 Chevy Silverado HD2500 with 60,000 miles, the following DIC 
>message came on today "Service Brake System". The brakes work great.  Does 
>anyone have any suggestions as to where I should start looking for the 
>cause of the problem.
>
> Frank V. 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 14:09:30 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 16:09:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Silverado HD2500 Service Brake System
In-Reply-To: <552511.11595.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <552511.11595.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912261309u30aeaa07o1ba412db04af0c22@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> I own a 2003 Chevy Silverado HD2500 with 60,000 miles, the following DIC
> message came on today "Service Brake System". The brakes work great.  Does
> anyone have any suggestions as to where I should start looking for the cause
> of the problem.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
>
Check the fluid level, and then attach a scan tool.  There will be a code
stored.  (I dunno if the code readers that auto parts stores will let you
borrow will tell you this or not.)  The code will tell you where to start
looking.  Chevy trucks of this vintage have a reputation for having weird
random electrical problems with the brake system computers and sensors.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Dec 26 17:43:56 2009
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 05:13:56 +0430
Subject: [Shop-talk] Silverado HD2500 Service Brake System
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40912261309u30aeaa07o1ba412db04af0c22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFEB6EEAC9.9B25782E-ON64257699.00040F01-64257699.00047685@mail.megageek.com>

I had a 1993 Mercedes that had sensors in the brake pads.  They started to 
dimly light the "brake" idiot light well before the pads needed 
replacement.  Normally if it was raining and the pads were dirty they 
could trigger the light.  Maybe now with the new computers, what would 
have been a dim light on the dash now turned into a service code that 
tripped the DIC code completely.

Have you checked the pads?  Do you tow with this truck, (if not, that is a 
great truck to tow with!) Maybe they are just getting close to needing 
replacement.

Moose
"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson



David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/27/2009 01:55

To
Frank Vantacich <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>
cc
Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Silverado HD2500 Service Brake System






On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> I own a 2003 Chevy Silverado HD2500 with 60,000 miles, the following DIC
> message came on today "Service Brake System". The brakes work great. 
Does
> anyone have any suggestions as to where I should start looking for the 
cause
> of the problem.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
>
Check the fluid level, and then attach a scan tool.  There will be a code
stored.  (I dunno if the code readers that auto parts stores will let you
borrow will tell you this or not.)  The code will tell you where to start
looking.  Chevy trucks of this vintage have a reputation for having weird
random electrical problems with the brake system computers and sensors.

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 19:27:49 2009
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:27:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Silverado HD2500 Service Brake System
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40912261309u30aeaa07o1ba412db04af0c22@mail.gmail.com>
References: <552511.11595.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40912261309u30aeaa07o1ba412db04af0c22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B36C625.2020307@gmail.com>

You've got a fault in the ABS electronics.  Is there a separate brake 
idiot light?  Is it on?  Is the message "red" or "yellow"?  If there's a 
red tell-tale (light or message) then its trying to tell you to do 
something immediately (like add fluid).  If its yellow or white its 
suggesting its not urgent but you should have it serviced "soon".

Agree that you'll need to read the code to tell what to do.  The generic 
OBD scan tools typically only read "emissions related" faults and you'll 
have to either use an OEM tool or purchase an "upgrade" to a generic 
tool to read OEM-specific codes (this includes ABS, air bags and other 
body electronic systems).  Some OEMs are extra nice and include the 
non-emissions-related fault codes on their "public" list, but I don't 
know if GM is in that camp or not.

Good luck,

Ben.....


Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at gmail.com
Columbus, IN
1966 Triumph TR4A
1973 MG Midget
1980 Triumph TR8
2007 Mazda RX8
2002 Yamaha FZ1
2003 Honda ST1300


On 12/26/2009 4:09 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Frank Vantacich
> <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>    
>> I own a 2003 Chevy Silverado HD2500 with 60,000 miles, the following DIC
>> message came on today "Service Brake System". The brakes work great.  Does
>> anyone have any suggestions as to where I should start looking for the cause
>> of the problem.
>>
>> Thanks for the help.
>>
>>
>>      
> Check the fluid level, and then attach a scan tool.  There will be a code
> stored.  (I dunno if the code readers that auto parts stores will let you
> borrow will tell you this or not.)  The code will tell you where to start
> looking.  Chevy trucks of this vintage have a reputation for having weird
> random electrical problems with the brake system computers and sensors.

From rolds at plausa.com  Mon Dec 28 12:24:03 2009
From: rolds at plausa.com (Ron Olds)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 14:24:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets
In-Reply-To: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
References: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F0E22A7@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>
Message-ID: <A0322F41AC501A4DBE172D713DDB318F011FFF6E@MSERVER.PLASSERUSA.COM>

I want to thank everyone for their advice on toilets.  It seems that the
Toto is the best route to go.  Unfortunately the finances wouldn't allow
me to spend that much.  I did purchase the American Standard Champion 4
and am very happy with it.  It definitely does the job.

Happy New Year to all!

Ronald Olds

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Ron Olds
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 6:29 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Toilets

I would like to ask the group for advise on toilets.  I am always amazed
at the amount of knowledge out there when it comes to about anything.



I am looking at replacing some old toilets in the house with the new
ones which use less water.  I k now some of the new ones are not very
effective when it gets down to what they need to do while others work
very well.  Does anyone have any recommendations of which ones work well
or which ones to stay away from.  I don't want to buy a piece of crap I
just want to get rid...



Thanks for the help and happy holidays to everyone.



Ronald Olds

Sales Manager

Plasser American Corporation

PO Box 5464

2001 Myers Road

Chesapeake, VA 23324-0464



Phone  (757) 543-3526

Cell      (630) 240-0818

Fax      (757) 494-7186



The information contained in this e-mail including any attachments may
be proprietary, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for
the use of the addressee. Any unauthorized distribution, disclosure or
any other such use is strictly prohibited. Furthermore, any reviews,
semination or copying by anyone other than the intended recipient is
expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
notify the sender and destroy all copies of the original transmittal.
You are subscribed as rolds at plausa.com

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From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Dec 30 07:48:12 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:48:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Running Boards
Message-ID: <COL115-W219F01644CD678A44B5899CC790@phx.gbl>

My 1999 F250 came with a set of aftermarket running boards that are now very
rusty.  I recently picked up a set of stock ones and am in the process of
installing them.  However, the old ones were attached pretty sturdily, with
bolts and angle iron (three places) to the lower skirt of rocker panels and
then steel tubes that were bolted to the frames.  The stock ones only appear
to be bolted to the skirt.  They are attached in a lot more points (I don't
want to go out in the snow to count, but I think they are bolted in at least 8
places), but this doesn't seem nearly as strong as the aftermarket ones were.

Before I go crawling around parking lots and looking at other trucks, does
anyone here know how stock Ford running boards are attached?  Am I missing any
parts?

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Dec 30 09:32:04 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:32:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Ford Running Boards
In-Reply-To: <COL115-W219F01644CD678A44B5899CC790@phx.gbl>
References: <COL115-W219F01644CD678A44B5899CC790@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7A3291E6DEAA4075AFF7B66129727FE3@EricJRussellPC>

I think you're missing some parts. (on the running boards, I mean)

My '99 F250 SD extended cab did not come with running boards. I bought a set 
of Ford running boards on Ebay. They attach with a pair of substantial 
brackets that are bolted to the inner sill. I don't recall if those brackets 
also attach to the frame (but I don't think so).

If more info &/or photos would be useful let me know.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

----- Original Message ----- 

> My 1999 F250 came with a set of aftermarket running boards that are now 
> very
> rusty.  I recently picked up a set of stock ones and am in the process of
> installing them.

> Before I go crawling around parking lots and looking at other trucks, does
> anyone here know how stock Ford running boards are attached?  Am I missing 
> any
> parts?

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Dec 30 11:00:37 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:00:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
Message-ID: <1150260218.3984281262196037453.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Listers, 

I'm trying to gauge the oil consumption on my 2008 Mustang Bullitt (looks like about 1qt./6K miles). Anyway, at 2.5-3K miles I'm usually down half a qt., so I add a qt. The dipstick has two holes--min and max--and a cross-hatched pattern in between with no markings. So, I go to the owner's manual and read that, as long as the oil is above the bottom whole DO NOT ADD OIL (this is in bold all caps). Now, I understand why running too low is bad, and why running too high is bad, but why doesn't Ford want me topping off the oil to keep it at 'full?' Any ideas? The only think I can think of is they really don't want overfilling, but I know better than to do that. 

As far as I can tell, the crosshatch pattern serves no purpose other than, maybe, keeping the oil from running off the dipstick. 

bs 

-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Dec 30 12:36:15 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:36:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
In-Reply-To: <1150260218.3984281262196037453.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1150260218.3984281262196037453.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <FCC294A434E946279FFFAE493BA8B9EF@EricJRussellPC>

1 quart/6K miles is not a problem.

If it's down 1/2 a quart and you add 1 quart you are adding too much.

The crosshatched section helps make it easier to see the oil level.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 

> I'm trying to gauge the oil consumption on my 2008 Mustang Bullitt (looks 
> like about 1qt./6K miles). Anyway, at 2.5-3K miles I'm usually down half a 
> qt., so I add a qt. The dipstick has two holes--min and max--and a 
> cross-hatched pattern in between with no markings. So, I go to the owner's 
> manual and read that, as long as the oil is above the bottom whole DO NOT 
> ADD OIL (this is in bold all caps). Now, I understand why running too low 
> is bad, and why running too high is bad, but why doesn't Ford want me 
> topping off the oil to keep it at 'full?' Any ideas? The only think I can 
> think of is they really don't want overfilling, but I know better than to 
> do that.
>
> As far as I can tell, the crosshatch pattern serves no purpose other than, 
> maybe, keeping the oil from running off the dipstick.

> -------------------------------- 
> Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Dec 30 12:52:18 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:52:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
In-Reply-To: <FCC294A434E946279FFFAE493BA8B9EF@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <1258933115.4024061262202738310.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Oops ... shouldn't write a message in haste when I'm late for a meeting. I only add HALF a qt. at 2.5-3K miles and, yes, I know hole is spelled 'hole,' not 'whole.' I'm not unhappy with using a qt. every 6K miles; I've read the oil is likely being sucked in through the PCV valve (an air/oil separator would help, but don't know if it's worth it). Makes sense re: the crosshatched section (though that doesn't extend from the bottom to the top hole). 

Anyway, my question is why does Ford not want owners adding any oil unless the level is below the bottom hole--why shouldn't I keep the oil topped up? 


bs 

-------------------------------- 
Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net> 
To: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>, shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:36:15 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level 

1 quart/6K miles is not a problem. 

If it's down 1/2 a quart and you add 1 quart you are adding too much. 

The crosshatched section helps make it easier to see the oil level. 

Eric Russell 
Mebane, NC 
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell 
----- Original Message ----- 

> I'm trying to gauge the oil consumption on my 2008 Mustang Bullitt (looks 
> like about 1qt./6K miles). Anyway, at 2.5-3K miles I'm usually down half a 
> qt., so I add a qt. The dipstick has two holes--min and max--and a 
> cross-hatched pattern in between with no markings. So, I go to the owner's 
> manual and read that, as long as the oil is above the bottom whole DO NOT 
> ADD OIL (this is in bold all caps). Now, I understand why running too low 
> is bad, and why running too high is bad, but why doesn't Ford want me 
> topping off the oil to keep it at 'full?' Any ideas? The only think I can 
> think of is they really don't want overfilling, but I know better than to 
> do that. 
> 
> As far as I can tell, the crosshatch pattern serves no purpose other than, 
> maybe, keeping the oil from running off the dipstick. 

> -------------------------------- 
> Bob Spidell - San Jose, CA 

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Wed Dec 30 13:29:22 2009
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:29:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] go kart/briggs and stratton
Message-ID: <1F2AB0A93787490F8B050A139EEACA92@Fest>

I bought a used go cart for my kids.  It's powered by a 5 hp briggs and
Stratton engine.  It runs great except after it's warmed up it seems to stall
when you puch the throttle pedal.  It also seems to conincide with hitting a
bump or going up a hill.  I don't see a fuel filter on it but the fuel tank is
filled with a spongey/meshy material I guess to act as a fuel filter.  It
seems to me it's either a fuel question or a chock question.  Any advice ??
Thanks,
Dan

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Dec 30 13:42:16 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:42:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
In-Reply-To: <1150260218.3984281262196037453.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1150260218.3984281262196037453.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B3BBB28.8050301@xxiii.com>

Bob Spidell wrote:
> Now, I understand why running too low is bad, and why running too high is bad, but why doesn't Ford want me topping off the oil to keep it at 'full?' Any ideas? The only think I can think of is they really don't want overfilling, but I know better than to do that. 

I can't imagine it hurting anything under ideal conditions.  But I can 
think of a few things they're trying to dissuade:

* incorrectly gauging the level by not allowing adequate time for the 
oil to drain to the sump;  eg:  during a gas station fill up.
* ...which could also cause you to top-off with whatever oil is at hand, 
   possibly wrong weight, different brand / additive formulation, etc.
* Contaminating the oil by opening the filler cap unnecessarily (most 
new cars have stupid plastic engine covers, most of which are BAD about 
trapping dirt and grit right around the filler.)

> As far as I can tell, the crosshatch pattern serves no purpose other than, maybe, keeping the oil from running off the dipstick. 

Yeah, my best guess is it's just to make the oil cling more for ease and 
accuracy of gauging the level.

-Wayne

From mdporter at dfn.com  Wed Dec 30 14:39:14 2009
From: mdporter at dfn.com (Michael Porter)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:39:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
In-Reply-To: <1258933115.4024061262202738310.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1258933115.4024061262202738310.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B3BC882.6000906@dfn.com>

Bob Spidell wrote:
> Anyway, my question is why does Ford not want owners adding any oil unless the level is below the bottom hole--why shouldn't I keep the oil topped up? 
>
>
>   

Because Ford doesn't want warranty claims on seals that weep oil due to 
overfilling.  This is as much psychology as engineering.  Most people, 
seeing that the oil level is down, will put in a quart, because that's 
how oil is sold.  They don't want to add a little, recheck, add a little 
more, recheck, and then have a half-full container of oil being kicked 
around in the car.


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Dec 30 15:16:48 2009
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:16:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] go kart/briggs and stratton
In-Reply-To: <1F2AB0A93787490F8B050A139EEACA92@Fest>
References: <1F2AB0A93787490F8B050A139EEACA92@Fest>
Message-ID: <955AF47C-688A-41E0-800B-461FC03FD066@groupwbench.org>

On Dec 30, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)  
wrote:

> I bought a used go cart for my kids.

Right on! :-)

>  It's powered by a 5 hp briggs and
> Stratton engine.  It runs great except after it's warmed up it seems  
> to stall
> when you puch the throttle pedal.  It also seems to conincide with  
> hitting a
> bump or going up a hill.  I don't see a fuel filter on it but the  
> fuel tank is
> filled with a spongey/meshy material I guess to act as a fuel  
> filter.  It
> seems to me it's either a fuel question or a chock question.  Any  
> advice ??

You need to figure out what kind of carburetor is on it, because  
that's likely where the problem lies. It's likely a simple lawnmower  
style carb. It could be simply water in the float bowl, or things  
could be gummed up from sitting. Or the air filter could be clogged  
restricting high speed air flow. Unless you're familiar with small  
engine carbs, it's probably easiest to take it to a small engine  
repair shop. They will know quickly what it needs.

The spongy material is to prevent the gas from turning into a fireball  
should the tank come loose and bounce down the track.

jim

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Dec 30 15:17:53 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
Message-ID: <200912302217.nBUMHrgg005942@moose.dimebank.com>

Running high cause excessive frothing at the crank or unexpected
oil going out the PCV system...

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Dec 30 17:00:07 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:00:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
In-Reply-To: <1258933115.4024061262202738310.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <FCC294A434E946279FFFAE493BA8B9EF@EricJRussellPC>
	<1258933115.4024061262202738310.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40912301600x1d8af1ccoba689c8175168e77@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Oops ... shouldn't write a message in haste when I'm late for a meeting. I
> only add HALF a qt. at 2.5-3K miles and, yes, I know hole is spelled 'hole,'
> not 'whole.' I'm not unhappy with using a qt. every 6K miles; I've read the
> oil is likely being sucked in through the PCV valve (an air/oil separator
> would help, but don't know if it's worth it). Makes sense re: the
> crosshatched section (though that doesn't extend from the bottom to the top
> hole).
>
> Anyway, my question is why does Ford not want owners adding any oil unless
> the level is below the bottom hole--why shouldn't I keep the oil topped up?
>
>
the 4.6 l engine is notorious for oil level problems.  It's got drain down
problems, I think.   So it's quite possible you've got a whole bunch of oil
in upper oil galleries, that hasn't yet made it to the crank case.  So they
don't want you to stop to get fuel, check the oil, see you're half way
between the lines, and add a quart.  If you were really half a quart low,
you'd now be half a quart too full, which is probably within the tolerance,
but if there's half a quart working its way back to the pan, you're a whole
quart over, which is probably too much.  It's particularly bad on the 4.6,
because in 2001 or so, Ford decided that a five quart fill wasn't enough oil
(There were oil starvation problems under hard running conditions.), and
raised the fill to six quarts.  the only change the engine got was a new
dipstick.  (It's possible there's a new oil pan since then; I don't even try
to keep up.)

If you're checking the oil after the car has sat on level ground overnight,
and you want to add oil, I don't see a problem, as long as you add it a
little at a time.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Dec 30 18:54:40 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:54:40 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mustan oil level
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40912301600x1d8af1ccoba689c8175168e77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FCC294A434E946279FFFAE493BA8B9EF@EricJRussellPC>	
	<1258933115.4024061262202738310.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40912301600x1d8af1ccoba689c8175168e77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B3C0460.1070502@comcast.net>