From gsteve at hammatt.com  Wed Apr  1 08:33:15 2009
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 08:33:15 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
Message-ID: <F126234CE1F64107968B0F54AC0098B2@DesktopPC>

I'm attaching some light metal pieces to 
thick leather.  Afterwards the backside of the 
leather will not be accessible.  I'm using a brad 
with a push nut. See here:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-nuts/=198uxq
it is very small (1/16" shaft on the brad).  After 
installation, I clip the end of the brad as close to 
the Push Nut as possible so that the leather will 
be near flat when finished.

Before closing the backside I'm thinking, for extra 
security, to add some sort of adhesive.  I have 
hundreds of these to do, so I'm also looking to 
keeping it simple.
My question is:  what type of adhesive would best 
assure no movement of the Push Nut.  I cannot afford to 
have it come loose.  What I'm effectively trying to 
do is lock the Push Nut on the shaft of the brad.
Any suggestions? 

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Apr  1 09:38:53 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:38:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
In-Reply-To: <F126234CE1F64107968B0F54AC0098B2@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <2004477229.2538881238603933723.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I've experimented with lots of adhesives for various applications. Generally, it's difficult to bond smooth metal to smooth metal with much strength. However, a two-part epoxy--like JB Weld--would add some strength to the brad and push nut connection. It might be easier to use one of the putty epoxies, the kind you slice off a 'stick' and knead to mix and activate. Then, just stuff it into the push nut and around the brad, or fill the push nut before you push the brad through--that would add some strength to the connection. 


bs 



I'm attaching some light metal pieces to 
thick leather. Afterwards the backside of the 
leather will not be accessible. I'm using a brad 
with a push nut. See here: 
http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-nuts/=198uxq 
it is very small (1/16" shaft on the brad). After 
installation, I clip the end of the brad as close to 
the Push Nut as possible so that the leather will 
be near flat when finished. 

Before closing the backside I'm thinking, for extra 
security, to add some sort of adhesive. I have 
hundreds of these to do, so I'm also looking to 
keeping it simple. 
My question is: what type of adhesive would best 
assure no movement of the Push Nut. I cannot afford to 
have it come loose. What I'm effectively trying to 
do is lock the Push Nut on the shaft of the brad. 
Any suggestions? 

Steve Hammatt 
Mount Vernon WA USA 
_______________________________________________ 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 09:48:40 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:48:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
In-Reply-To: <F126234CE1F64107968B0F54AC0098B2@DesktopPC>
References: <F126234CE1F64107968B0F54AC0098B2@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904010948v323c7129v6995ddbe61419e15@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA
<gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:
> I'm attaching some light metal pieces to thick leather. B Afterwards the
> backside of the leather will not be accessible. B I'm using a brad with a
> push nut. See here:
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-nuts/=198uxq
> it is very small (1/16" shaft on the brad). B After installation, I clip
the
> end of the brad as close to the Push Nut as possible so that the leather
> will be near flat when finished.
>
> Before closing the backside I'm thinking, for extra security, to add some
> sort of adhesive. B I have hundreds of these to do, so I'm also looking to
> keeping it simple.
> My question is: B what type of adhesive would best assure no movement of
the
> Push Nut. B I cannot afford to have it come loose. B What I'm effectively
> trying to do is lock the Push Nut on the shaft of the brad.
> Any suggestions?

What about loc-tite?


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Apr  1 09:58:30 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
Message-ID: <585541.23501.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I small drip of CA glue is probably as good as anything, and will be easier to
apply hundreds of time than epoxy would be.

But the problem here is that the
end of a brad has very little area for glue to adhere to, so I doubt that any
glue will greatly increase the strength of a properly-fitting push nut.

If
the end of the brad could be mushroomed a bit without damaging anything, that
might make it more secure.

Doug


--- On Wed, 4/1/09, Steve Hammatt Mount
Vernon WA USA <gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:

> From: Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon
WA USA <gsteve at hammatt.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
> To:
"Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 11:33
AM
> I'm attaching some light metal pieces
> to thick leather.  Afterwards the
backside of the
> leather will not be accessible.  I'm using a brad with
> a
push nut. See here:
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-nuts/=198uxq
> it is very
small (1/16" shaft on the brad).  After
> installation, I clip the end of the
brad as close to the
> Push Nut as possible so that the leather will be near
flat
> when finished.
> 
> Before closing the backside I'm thinking, for extra
> security, to add some sort of adhesive.  I have
> hundreds of these to do,
so I'm also looking to keeping it
> simple.
> My question is:  what type of
adhesive would best
> assure no movement of the Push Nut.  I cannot afford to
> have it come loose.  What I'm effectively trying to do
> is lock the Push
Nut on the shaft of the brad.
> Any suggestions? 
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount
Vernon WA USA
> ______

From chad at linuxeg.com  Wed Apr  1 10:04:50 2009
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:04:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
In-Reply-To: <2004477229.2538881238603933723.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2004477229.2538881238603933723.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49D39EB2.8030709@linuxeg.com>

I've always had good luck with Loctite products:

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/glue.asp

Also, take a look at:

http://www.thistothat.com

chad




>
>
>
> I'm attaching some light metal pieces to 
> thick leather. Afterwards the backside of the 
> leather will not be accessible. I'm using a brad 
> with a push nut. See here: 
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-nuts/=198uxq 
> it is very small (1/16" shaft on the brad). After 
> installation, I clip the end of the brad as close to 
> the Push Nut as possible so that the leather will 
> be near flat when finished. 
>
> Before closing the backside I'm thinking, for extra 
> security, to add some sort of adhesive. I have 
> hundreds of these to do, so I'm also looking to 
> keeping it simple. 
> My question is: what type of adhesive would best 
> assure no movement of the Push Nut. I cannot afford to 
> have it come loose. What I'm effectively trying to 
> do is lock the Push Nut on the shaft of the brad. 
> Any suggestions? 
>
> Steve Hammatt 
> Mount Vernon WA USA 
> _______________________________________________ 

From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Apr  1 10:24:39 2009
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:24:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
In-Reply-To: <585541.23501.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1902720092.2564441238606679459.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I thought of threadlocker--which is a CA--but figured it might be a bit messy and with limited surface area--unlike bolt threads--epoxy will bond stronger. 

For that matter, why not use pop rivets? 


bs 





I small drip of CA glue is probably as good as anything, and will be easier to 
apply hundreds of time than epoxy would be. 

But the problem here is that the 
end of a brad has very little area for glue to adhere to, so I doubt that any 
glue will greatly increase the strength of a properly-fitting push nut. 

If 
the end of the brad could be mushroomed a bit without damaging anything, that 
might make it more secure. 

Doug 



> I'm attaching some light metal pieces 
> to thick leather. Afterwards the 
backside of the 
> leather will not be accessible. I'm using a brad with 
> a 
push nut. See here: 
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-nuts/=198uxq 
> it is very 
small (1/16" shaft on the brad). After 
> installation, I clip the end of the 
brad as close to the 
> Push Nut as possible so that the leather will be near 
flat 
> when finished. 
> 
> Before closing the backside I'm thinking, for extra 
> security, to add some sort of adhesive. I have 
> hundreds of these to do, 
so I'm also looking to keeping it 
> simple. 
> My question is: what type of 
adhesive would best 
> assure no movement of the Push Nut. I cannot afford to 
> have it come loose. What I'm effectively trying to do 
> is lock the Push 
Nut on the shaft of the brad. 
> Any suggestions? 
> Steve Hammatt 
> Mount 
Vernon WA USA 

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Apr  1 10:56:00 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:56:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
References: <F126234CE1F64107968B0F54AC0098B2@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <001601c9b2f3$1e3310f0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Those little push nuts go on and stay on tremendously well...once.
As much fun as I have prying them off shafts, I've hardly ever seen them 
fall off on their own.  When they did they were invariably mangled on 
installation, split, or mangled on removal and reused.

Generic thread locker or keyway locker would fit the bill well if you really 
want something on those push nuts.

You might also want to look at Locktite Blackmax.  It's been some years 
since I used the stuff, and I'm not 100% certain the current formulation is 
what I used to use.  But the stuff would stick everything together, and was 
flexible.  We used to do things like glue broken belts together with the 
stuff. 

From clab at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  1 11:08:33 2009
From: clab at bellsouth.net (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:08:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesives.........
In-Reply-To: <2004477229.2538881238603933723.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2004477229.2538881238603933723.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49D3ADA1.8060502@bellsouth.net>

I've always had good luck with Loctite products:

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/glue.asp

Also, take a look at:

http://www.thistothat.com

chad




>
>
>
> I'm attaching some light metal pieces to 
> thick leather. Afterwards the backside of the 
> leather will not be accessible. I'm using a brad 
> with a push nut. See here: 
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-nuts/=198uxq 
> it is very small (1/16" shaft on the brad). After 
> installation, I clip the end of the brad as close to 
> the Push Nut as possible so that the leather will 
> be near flat when finished. 
>
> Before closing the backside I'm thinking, for extra 
> security, to add some sort of adhesive. I have 
> hundreds of these to do, so I'm also looking to 
> keeping it simple. 
> My question is: what type of adhesive would best 
> assure no movement of the Push Nut. I cannot afford to 
> have it come loose. What I'm effectively trying to 
> do is lock the Push Nut on the shaft of the brad. 
> Any suggestions? 
>
> Steve Hammatt 
> Mount Vernon WA USA 
> _______________________________________________ 

From halfnights at shaw.ca  Wed Apr  1 11:31:42 2009
From: halfnights at shaw.ca (Art Halfnights)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:31:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 80
References: <mailman.13.1238612402.12535.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c9b2f8$1ad54db0$1a454546@home>

Hi Steve  epoxy or glue would do the trick.  You are wanting it to go around 
the shaft and between the belt and nut face even a good glue, would work if 
you put the glue around the shaft at the belt face and then screwed the nut 
on ,then the addietion would be better, belt face to nut face.  And not too 
messy ???   A leather crafting outlet , or shoe repair or Lapages webb site 
might be the place to get the best glue??/  Regards  Art Halfnights 

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Apr  2 20:30:05 2009
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:30:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re"  adhesives......
In-Reply-To: <000d01c9b2f8$1ad54db0$1a454546@home>
References: <mailman.13.1238612402.12535.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<000d01c9b2f8$1ad54db0$1a454546@home>
Message-ID: <239CD94C7E27480E8FE3D02BD495B8ED@DesktopPC>

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.  I've contacted the 
Technical
Support people at Loctite, they were very helpful.  The best product
is a urethane based epoxy.  Also, I took the advise to "stake" the 
ends
of the brads to slightly mushroom the head to keep the push nut from
coming loose.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Art Halfnights" <halfnights at shaw.ca>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 80


> Hi Steve  epoxy or glue would do the trick.  You are wanting it to 
> go around
> the shaft and between the belt and nut face even a good glue, would 
> work if
> you put the glue around the shaft at the belt face and then screwed 
> the nut
> on ,then the addietion would be better, belt face to nut face.  And 
> not too
> messy ???   A leather crafting outlet , or shoe repair or Lapages 
> webb site
> might be the place to get the best glue??/  Regards  Art Halfnights
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as gsteve at hammatt.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive


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From opposumking at verizon.net  Fri Apr  3 02:39:17 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 05:39:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re"  adhesives......
References: <mailman.13.1238612402.12535.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<000d01c9b2f8$1ad54db0$1a454546@home>
	<239CD94C7E27480E8FE3D02BD495B8ED@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <001601c9b440$0f3359e0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

If you can stake those brads then it sounds like a blind rivet would perform 
better.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 11:30 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re" adhesives......


> Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.  I've contacted the Technical
> Support people at Loctite, they were very helpful.  The best product
> is a urethane based epoxy.  Also, I took the advise to "stake" the ends
> of the brads to slightly mushroom the head to keep the push nut from
> coming loose.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 13:58:35 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:58:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <06f501c9af4b$d7fd27b0$87f77710$@com>
Message-ID: <1993337623.707461239047915267.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

so I'm re-doing the hot water system at the new house, and I was reading this article: 

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Free/021192082.pdf 

can anyone explain the solution #2 to me? I mean in such a way that I could plumb it? I understand the problem he's trying to solve, but I'm not at all sure how the fix on the last page is solving it. and the narrative in the text isn't making sense at all. 

thanks in advance. 

scott 

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  6 14:27:36 2009
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:27:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <1993337623.707461239047915267.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <06f501c9af4b$d7fd27b0$87f77710$@com>
	<1993337623.707461239047915267.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W537444963B6D9B02AB55FD9A840@phx.gbl>

To your question, I think you would need to have the supply run going to the
fixture you want to benefit from the recirculating system - be connected to
the recirculating pump, so it can regulate the temp of water in the supply
line.  As the hot side loses heat, the pump opens and allows hotter water to
mix to warm it up.  That's how I understand it.

It always sounded like a waste to me, but connected to a timer and used in
only certain locations, it might be saving on the cost of water - not sure.



An older coworker and I were just talking about a similiar system he know
about back in the day, where there was a large tank before the hot water
heater, that tempered the cold water from the street before it would get
heated by the hot water heater.  The thinking was that for the price of a big
tank installed in a basement that's not too cold, or even heated, you could
save energy on heating the water from a lower temperature by allowing it to
acclimate to room temp, but it would also make the "cold" supply just a little
less cold as well, which again means you would need less "hot" water at the
fixture to get the desired temp.



PJ

> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:58:35 +0000
> From: scott.hall at comcast.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
>
> so I'm re-doing the hot water system at the new house, and I was reading
this article:
>
> http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Free/021192082.pdf
>
> can anyone explain the solution #2 to me? I mean in such a way that I could
plumb it? I understand the problem he's trying to solve, but I'm not at all
sure how the fix on the last page is solving it. and the narrative in the text
isn't making sense at all.
>
> thanks in advance.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________

From mbarre at juno.com  Mon Apr  6 15:11:48 2009
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:11:48 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
Message-ID: <20090406.171148.5209.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

I agree -  I understand the concept, because I deal with it in my shop
bathroom that has a shower for the kids using the pool.  When you set the
water for the desired temp in the shower, using the hot water in the sink
draws yells from the showerer - but I can't follow exactly how he is
constructing a buffer to deal with heat production limitation.


---------- Original Message ----------
From: scott.hall at comcast.net
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:58:35 +0000 (UTC)

so I'm re-doing the hot water system at the new house, and I was reading this
article:

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Free/021192082.pdf

can anyone explain the solution #2 to me? I mean in such a way that I could
plumb it? I understand the problem he's trying to solve, but I'm not at all
sure how the fix on the last page is solving it. and the narrative in the text
isn't making sense at all.

thanks in advance.

scott
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

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From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 15:17:56 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:17:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <20090406.171148.5209.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <1538618150.752801239052676453.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

I get the problem--when you use too much 'draw' from the instant water heater, the pressure in the hot water supply drops and so if it's a pressure balancing shower, the volume drops as well. his solution is to pressurize the system. cool. that much of the theory I get. 

totally don't understand the schematic on the last page, though. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt" <mbarre at juno.com> 
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 6:11:48 PM (GMT-0400) Auto-Detected 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops? 

I agree - I understand the concept, because I deal with it in my shop 
bathroom that has a shower for the kids using the pool. When you set the 
water for the desired temp in the shower, using the hot water in the sink 
draws yells from the showerer - but I can't follow exactly how he is 
constructing a buffer to deal with heat production limitation. 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Apr  6 17:06:33 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:06:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <1993337623.707461239047915267.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <06f501c9af4b$d7fd27b0$87f77710$@com>
	<1993337623.707461239047915267.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <06bb01c9b70c$57382e40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> so I'm re-doing the hot water system at the new house, and I was reading
> this article:
> 
> http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Free/021192082.pdf
> 
> can anyone explain the solution #2 to me? 

As I see it, he has basically turned the tankless heater into a fast
recovery tank-type heater.  When the pump kicks in, it also boosts the hot
water pressure to the rest of the house.  Plus the tempering valve helps
keep the temperature to the shower constant (by mixing less cool water when
the hot water isn't as hot).

Seems like a bunch of money & complication; all based on the concept that
that small tank-type heater plus a tankless heater & pump all lose less heat
to the environment than just a larger tank-type heater would.  A $50 water
heater blanket might work just as well.

My wife started a load of clothes while I was in the shower yesterday.  I
knew she had done it because I felt the momentary drop in pressure; but
didn't need to adjust the temperature at all.  The volume was slightly lower
with the washer running, but not enough to even bother turning the shower up
higher.

OTOH, the recirculating system seems like a good idea to me, IF you can
adequately insulate both the hot water and return lines.  Probably still
cost more in the long run (to run the pump) though, so I guess I'll go on
brushing my teeth while the shower gets hot <G>

Randall

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 19:35:39 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 01:35:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <06bb01c9b70c$57382e40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <733432756.878271239068139272.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

well...I'm not doing that *exact* thing, but I'm pretty sure understanding what he's doing will help me with what I'm doing. 

I'd like to put a passive loop in, and I'd like to use a solar roof unit to heat the water in an electric water heater with the bottom element unplugged. that will connect to the passive loop. 

branching off that passive (and very well insulated loop) will be a instant heater. or several, actually. one for the master bath, and one or more for the other bathrooms and kitchen. I'm just trying to get the idea of the post-instant heater plumbing down. I really don't understand what the guy is doing in that article. I understand the concepts and the problems he's trying to solve, I mean I literally don't get how to plumb it. for example, looking at my electric heater, I have an 'in' and an 'out'. his schematic seems to have three ports and they're not in/out specific, apparently. 

why am I doing this? mostly because I can and I think it'd be cool to have cheap (operationally, not installation cost) instant hot water, and more importantly, because it'd make my wife happy. the goal is to never run out of hot water for what it's costing us to heat the water now or less. also because the shower fixture she's picked out for the master bath will have a one inch (each) supply for hot and cold water. I'm not kidding. one inch in for hot and cold, each. it feeds six individual fixtures and it controlled by something that resembles an overgrown i-pod. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> 
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 7:06:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops? 

Seems like a bunch of money & complication; all based on the concept that 
that small tank-type heater plus a tankless heater & pump all lose less heat 
to the environment than just a larger tank-type heater would. A $50 water 
heater blanket might work just as well. 

From pat at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Apr  6 20:11:38 2009
From: pat at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:11:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <06bb01c9b70c$57382e40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <06f501c9af4b$d7fd27b0$87f77710$@com>
	<1993337623.707461239047915267.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<06bb01c9b70c$57382e40$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <49DAB65A.9030303@hornesystemstx.com>

Years ago I came up with a slightly different system than the 
recirculating loop hot water system.

The Recirculating system needs double the amount of pipe than a normal 
hot water system. If the goal is to get hot water sooner, or not waste 
the water that goes down the drain while waiting for hot water, put a 
small pump and check valve between the hot and cold lines under the sink 
you want faster hot water at. The inlet of the pump connects to the hot 
water line, the outlet of the pump goes to the inlet of the check valve, 
and the outlet of the check valve goes to the cold water line. A timer 
and a push button switch can be rigged up to turn the pump on. ( A 
thermostat on the hot water line could also be used to turn the pump off 
when the hot water gets there also.)

When you are about ready for hot water turn the pump on for however long 
it takes to get hot water to that location.  The cold water in the hot 
pipe will be drawn from the pipe and put into the cold water line. A bit 
of hot water will probably be recycled  also, but not enough to think 
about.

Best part about this system is it is easy to add after the building is 
completed.

Peace,
Pat


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 20:31:52 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 02:31:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <49DAB65A.9030303@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <995130121.901231239071512381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

well, our goal at least is hot water instantly available without having to push a button or pay for a pump to constantly cycle it. 

now I just have to figure out if a passive loop system really works. seems good in theory, but... 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Horne" <pat at hornesystemstx.com> 
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 10:11:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops? 

Years ago I came up with a slightly different system than the 
recirculating loop hot water system. 

The Recirculating system needs double the amount of pipe than a normal 
hot water system. If the goal is to get hot water sooner, or not waste 
the water that goes down the drain while waiting for hot water, put a 
small pump and check valve between the hot and cold lines under the sink 
you want faster hot water at. The inlet of the pump connects to the hot 
water line, the outlet of the pump goes to the inlet of the check valve, 
and the outlet of the check valve goes to the cold water line. A timer 
and a push button switch can be rigged up to turn the pump on. ( A 
thermostat on the hot water line could also be used to turn the pump off 
when the hot water gets there also.) 

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 20:46:20 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 02:46:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <995130121.901231239071512381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1869597958.1786511239072380377.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

----- "scott hall" <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:

> now I just have to figure out if a passive loop system really works.

Passive loop systems really work, providing that the sink is significantly higher than the water heater.

My pipe-fitter father put this system in the house he had built in 1963.  I just sold the house in November, and I could walk into the house after being gone for a day or two and get hot water in any of the sinks right away.  I think about that sometimes while waiting for hot water in my own house.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L   1979 Caterham 7
1993 Suburban  1994 Miata C-package  2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net   
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums   http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 21:08:05 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 03:08:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <1869597958.1786511239072380377.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <966890911.910801239073685037.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

I'm thinking that will be the issue I have. in florida it's slab-on-grade and my house is single story, which is part of the reason for the loop--a large single story house is going to have at least one fixture a good long wait from the heater. 

what's 'significant', phil? I'm planning to run the loop in the attic, as far above the heater tank as I can, and have 'drops' to the individual sinks, much like a compressed air line setup. I figure the water in the drops will be cool, but that's six or seven feet of pipe vs. 60 or 70 feet in some places. 

I also figure I'll have to put the low (cold) part of the loop just a foot or two below the hot part, or else figure out how to commandeer the existing plumbing in the slab to be the return line. I'm going to try that first, but since a lot of the fixtures will move that probalby won't work. 

scott 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: pethier at comcast.net 
To: "scott hall" <scott.hall at comcast.net> 
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 10:46:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops? 

----- "scott hall" <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote: 

> now I just have to figure out if a passive loop system really works. 

Passive loop systems really work, providing that the sink is significantly higher than the water heater. 

My pipe-fitter father put this system in the house he had built in 1963. I just sold the house in November, and I could walk into the house after being gone for a day or two and get hot water in any of the sinks right away. I think about that sometimes while waiting for hot water in my own house. 

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Mon Apr  6 21:55:33 2009
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:55:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
References: <966890911.910801239073685037.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5DD5A9B2576744DCA61B4EA2BFABF19B@B50SS>

Hi guys,

We have a longish ranch home with seven sinks and 1 1/2" copper plumbing for 
the laterals. Short of having six demand heaters, the only way I could 
figure to deal with the long hot water delays and wasted water was a 
circulation system.

I have a circulation system on a conventional 75 gallon water heater. It has 
a small pump on a timer. I have it set to come on about 15 minutes before we 
get up on the morning and stays on until after we leave for work. It comes 
on again about when we get home and stays on until after dinner (proably 
four hours total). The pipes are well insulated and my gas bills are very 
low.

The notion is to have the hot water feed lines done in series (bathroom to 
bathroom) and to have the small diameter return line go back to the water 
heater from the furthest hot water feed.

I hear the pump click on in the morning and most times it does not require 
the water heater to kick-in to compensate for the incoming cold water 
accumulated overnight.

What this does do, however, is to provide instant hot water to all of the 
faucets where if I did not have it plumbed in, it could take many minutes of 
water running down the drain at the showers and at the bathroom sinks and at 
the kitchen sink to to get any semblence of warm water.

In a smaller or perhaps in a multi-story home, it probably is overkill. At 
my house, I will go outside and click the pump on if we are doing a load of 
dishes in the dishwasher on the weekends when the pump timer is not on.

I think it is great and believe this approach combined with some solar 
augemntation makes for a very attractive conventional solution (or perhaps 
not so conventional). I can post photos if you are interested.

best,

doug 

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 07:45:50 2009
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:45:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <5DD5A9B2576744DCA61B4EA2BFABF19B@B50SS>
Message-ID: <589774353.1012661239111950381.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

there's no kill like overkill, doug. and I'd love to see some pics if you want to post them. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "old dirtbeard" <dirtbeard at pacbell.net> 
To: "scott hall" <scott.hall at comcast.net>, shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 11:55:33 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops? 


In a smaller or perhaps in a multi-story home, it probably is overkill. At 
my house, I will go outside and click the pump on if we are doing a load of 
dishes in the dishwasher on the weekends when the pump timer is not on. 

I think it is great and believe this approach combined with some solar 
augemntation makes for a very attractive conventional solution (or perhaps 
not so conventional). I can post photos if you are interested. 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Apr  7 08:03:31 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 07:03:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heaters and hot water loops?
In-Reply-To: <733432756.878271239068139272.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20090407140331.QGFE12721.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I understand the concepts and the 
> problems he's trying to solve, I mean I literally don't get 
> how to plumb it. for example, looking at my electric heater, 
> I have an 'in' and an 'out'. his schematic seems to have 
> three ports and they're not in/out specific, apparently. 

Your 'In' would be the connection he shows with a dip tube.  'Out' of course
is the red pipe from the top.  I'm pretty sure that the side port he shows
is where the TPR valve would go normally.  Since the heater in the tank is
disabled (making it effectively just an insulated storage tank), the TPR
valve is not needed.

> I'm not kidding. one inch in for hot and cold, each. 
> it feeds six individual fixtures and it controlled by 
> something that resembles an overgrown i-pod. 

What happens when the water tower runs dry ?
<G>

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Apr  7 10:18:50 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:18:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 'server' 
pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream video, etc.

Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running 
ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet cable, 
some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?

Even if I get energetic and run wires to other rooms, I'm probably going 
to be running < 10 wires.

I know I need switches etc. to connect to the network. I'm fine with that 
stuff.  Its the "how do I connect an RJ-whatever connector to the ethernet 
cable and what spec ethernet cable do I want" part I could use some advice 
on, if its not going to be obvious at Lowes/HD.

Thanks!

Mark

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Apr  7 10:31:14 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:31:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <0KHQ0061LOJMHWW0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have done this and it is basically what you said, buy cable 
connectors, crimper, etc.  It's not brain surgery, but it does pay to 
be careful to make reliable connections.  I found this site useful 
regarding the actual 
mechanics:  http://www.duxcw.com/digest/Howto/network/cable/cable7.htm

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 12:18 PM 4/7/2009, Mark Andy wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 
>'server' pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream 
>video, etc.
>
>Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running 
>ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet 
>cable, some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?
>
>Even if I get energetic and run wires to other rooms, I'm probably 
>going to be running < 10 wires.
>
>I know I need switches etc. to connect to the network. I'm fine with 
>that stuff.  Its the "how do I connect an RJ-whatever connector to 
>the ethernet cable and what spec ethernet cable do I want" part I 
>could use some advice on, if its not going to be obvious at Lowes/HD.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Mark
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Apr  7 10:34:02 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:34:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
Message-ID: <0KHQ005XROOH84G0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have done this and it is basically what you said, buy cable 
connectors, crimper, etc.  It's not brain surgery, but it does pay to 
be careful to make reliable connections.  I found this site useful 
regarding the actual 
mechanics:  http://www.duxcw.com/digest/Howto/network/cable/

I'm sending this again, this time with a better link, one level 
up.  And a properly "trimmed" response.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 12:18 PM 4/7/2009, Mark Andy wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 
>'server' pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream 
>video, etc.
>
>Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running 
>ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet 
>cable, some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Apr  7 10:34:24 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:34:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
Message-ID: <200904071634.n37GYOCa003006@moose.dimebank.com>

You'll find CAT 5E or CAT 6 cable, and either one is good for up to
gigabit speeds with no problem. If you're running jack-to-jack,
just follow the color codes on the jack - make sure that you choose
"type A" or "type B" and stay consistent.

http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/ethernetcables.html

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  7 10:40:49 2009
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:40:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W47098FA9F5CC63A6B766129A850@phx.gbl>

I just bought pair of rj-45 jacks and wall plates from HD for about $4 for
jacks and maybe $2 for the wall plates.  You need to strip back and "punch
down" the individual wires, which I have not done in many years, and the jack
comes with a cheap plastic tool to do this - so no idea how well that will
work.  Was going to do it one night this week...



I tried Radio Shack for a simpler method where you can just connect the rj-45
connector the back of the wall plate that gets hidden in the box, and then the
normal outward facing jack - they didn't seem to carry them.


Some basic rules for running Ethernet Cat5 wire, are to keep it away from
sources of electrical noise, no kinks, don't stretch it when you pull it, and
a max run of 100 meters I think between switches/hubs, etc.   There are
probably other more specific rules.  Not sure what the price differences are
for Cat6, or whether it's worthwhile upgrading to that.



I have to wonder though how much demand for wiring homes with Cat5 has dropped
off since wireless has gotten more ubiquitous and cheap.  There are still
places for it.



PJ
> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:18:50 -0400
> From: mark at sccaprepared.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
>
> Howdy,
>
> I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 'server'
> pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream video, etc.
>
> Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running
> ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet cable,
> some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?
>
> Even if I get energetic and run wires to other rooms, I'm probably going
> to be running < 10 wires.
>
> I know I need switches etc. to connect to the network. I'm fine with that
> stuff. Its the "how do I connect an RJ-whatever connector to the ethernet
> cable and what spec ethernet cable do I want" part I could use some advice
> on, if its not going to be obvious at Lowes/HD.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Apr  7 10:46:12 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:46:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Mark Andy wrote:
> I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 'server' pc 
> lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream video, etc.

    Unless you only have, and exclusively use, desktop machines in specific 
locations... go wireless.  It's so much easier to just have a couple 
laptops, and wireless everywhere in the house.

> I know I need switches etc. to connect to the network. I'm fine with
> that stuff.  Its the "how do I connect an RJ-whatever connector to the 
> ethernet cable and what spec ethernet cable do I want" part I could use 
> some advice on, if its not going to be obvious at Lowes/HD.

    The cable you want is Cat5, and the connectors are RJ-45.  It's been 
about fifteen years since I cabled a building, but I remember that 
crimping 8-wire cat5 was not something we did for the enjoyment.

--
  David Hillman

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Apr  7 10:48:52 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:48:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <49DB83F4.2050701@xxiii.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
> Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running 
> ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet cable, 
> some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?

Don't run the cables too close to AC lines, esp for long runs in close 
parallel, or near fluorescents.  Keeping a distance and running 
perpendicular is best.

There is a minimum bend radius for ethernet.  I forget the exact spec 
but 3" sounds right.  Don't pull them tight, or you'll get abrupt bends. 
  Loose is good.  Don't staple them.  Using "bridle rings" and lightly 
ty-wrapping is good.

Use low voltage wall plates to mount in-wall.  Like an electrical box 
without a back.  Available at Lowes or HD.  If you try and cram them in 
a closed box you'll violate the bend radius rule.

Pull at least two cables to each location, so you have a spare.  If 
you're low-budget, you can leave one unterminated for future use.  Buy 
pull-twine, use it, and leave it in your bridle rings, walls, etc for 
when you need to pull more.

Leaving a 1 foot or so diameter loop of cable at each end gives you 
extra length if you need to repair (re-terminate) a cable (since you 
can't splice it.)

Learn the standard color coding;  at least for the first 4 pairs of 
wire.  Note for math geeks:  phone wire color coding is an infinitely 
expandable base-5 numbering system.  And it's even somewhat optimized 
for color blind males  ;)

The jacks commonly called "keystone jacks" don't need fancy punch down 
tools and are fairly novice friendly.  Plus can be mounted in a variety 
of wall plates or surface boxes.  Use RJ45 jacks for everything (4-pair 
wide modular.)

Everything should be a "home run" back to one location, where you 
central net switches and sources are.  As well as phone service.

Understand that Structured Cabling is not just for ethernet.  Running 
your analog phones or RS232 on it is ok too.  But regardless, the patch 
panels, wiring, and jacks should all be consistent, with identically 
terminated RJ45 jacks.  You can use adapters to go from RJ45 to 9-pin 
serial, but don't butcher up the jack!

Some ref matl @ wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_6_cable

-Wayne

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Apr  7 10:58:17 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:58:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <49DB8629.9070602@milleredp.com>

> Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running 
> ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet cable, 
> some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?

No.  They're fine for the wire, and I think HD at least stocks Leviton 
connectors which are fine, but you don't CRIMP anything, you need a 
*good* 110 punchdown tool.

Cat5E wire is good enough, Cat6 better, doing the terminations properly 
is critical, you've got to carry the twists in the pairs as close to the 
punchdown blades as possible.

Google "EIA T568A".

John.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Apr  7 10:59:10 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:59:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <0KHQ005XROOH84G0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0KHQ005XROOH84G0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <084f01c9b7a2$2c905050$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I have done this and it is basically what you said, buy cable
> connectors, crimper, etc.  It's not brain surgery, but it does pay to
> be careful to make reliable connections.  I found this site useful
> regarding the actual
> mechanics:  http://www.duxcw.com/digest/Howto/network/cable/

Note that the instructions on that site gloss over the color code at the
plugs.  For 3 of the 4 pairs, the white/tracer wire goes next to its
matching color wire.  But there is a pair that should be split, usually the
green pair IIRC.  Failing to observe this can result in a cable that sort-of
works, but has a high error rate.

Another gotcha, if you buy solid wire rather than stranded, be sure you get
solid wire connectors to go with it.  The "stranded only" connectors are
usually somewhat cheaper, as they have only a single point to pierce the
insulation and wire.  But if you use them with solid wire, the point will
slip off to one side of the wire and not make a good connection.  This can
also be a frustrating source of intermittent network problems.

The proper "solid or stranded" connectors have two points, that pierce the
insulation and trap the wire between the points for a solid connection.

-- Randall 

From mikey at b2systems.com  Tue Apr  7 10:59:17 2009
From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:59:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <1239123557.7638.125.camel@WebBrowser>

 Pretty standard stuff (for some of us at least).

 I would look into Cat6 wiring, it is NOT used yet but its the future
and if I was going to wire my house I would plan for the future.  The
wiring work is the same for Cat6 vs. Cat5e.  Cat6 wire is a bigger wire
and wound tighter so its a little bit harder to work with.

 I wired my house last year before I moved in with Cat5e because I had
the wire for free.  But even with that free price, I considered paying
for Cat6 wire.

 The only thing you have to think of is do you want to wire your
connectors to 568A or 568B standards, it really does not matter in the
end, you just have to consistent.  Switches and Routers know how to move
back and forth between the A and B wiring diagrams but you should be
consistent in your walls.  I chose B because its what we use at work and
I know that wiring in my head.  Its just a matter of switching some
wires around, no big deal.  I think A is the standard for phones so it
might be a better wiring scheme since the jack can now be used for
phones OR network, but I am not sure of that.

 HD had everything I needed, although I bought a Netgear box instead of
the brand at HD.

 Like you said, you just need wire, cheap crimpers and plates, that is
all.  The wall connectors just snap into faceplates and they came with
cheap punch tools that did the job just fine.  Wire your garage too, you
will love it :) especially if you have a detached garage like I do and
had very poor wireless connectivity, hated digging that trench but it
was worth it.

	mike

 On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 12:18 -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 'server' 
> pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream video, etc.
> 
> Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running 
> ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet cable, 
> some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?
> 
> Even if I get energetic and run wires to other rooms, I'm probably going 
> to be running < 10 wires.
> 
> I know I need switches etc. to connect to the network. I'm fine with that 
> stuff.  Its the "how do I connect an RJ-whatever connector to the ethernet 
> cable and what spec ethernet cable do I want" part I could use some advice 
> on, if its not going to be obvious at Lowes/HD.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as mikey at b2systems.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Apr  7 11:03:02 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
Message-ID: <200904071703.n37H32uc002370@moose.dimebank.com>

Um, just to be clear ... you talked about using a crimping tool. Are
you planning to make long patch cables - with male RJ45s at each end -
or mount wall plates? I'd really recommend wall plates if you can manage it;
you can buy plates with 2 or 4 or 6 modular holes that can be filled
with RJ45s or F connectors or what have you. The cheap punch-down tool
that comes with the RJ45 plug in is good enough for one use, if not more.

Pull at least two runs of CAT 5 if you're bothering to do it; you can
use one for a phone line.

Or ... just go wireless. 802.11g is pretty good if range isn't a problem.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 11:07:42 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:07:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904071007i782acdedpa5d84b347e2ecec2@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 'server'
> pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream video, etc.
>
> Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running ethernet
> wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet cable, some
> connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?
>
> Even if I get energetic and run wires to other rooms, I'm probably going to
> be running < 10 wires.
>
> I know I need switches etc. to connect to the network. I'm fine with that
> stuff. B Its the "how do I connect an RJ-whatever connector to the ethernet
> cable and what spec ethernet cable do I want" part I could use some advice
> on, if its not going to be obvious at Lowes/HD.

If you're doing fixed wiring, with jacks in wall plates, this is a
reasonable way to go.  (Though you'll pay a substantial premium for
buying from the Borg.)  If what you're planning on doing is running
patch cables, then do yourself a favor, and buy them.  They're as
cheap as buying the wire and connectors, or even cheaper; they're done
by machine, so they're loads more reliable.  And, if you're doing
fixed wiring, buy your patch cables.  Resist the temptation to buy
them from the Borg or an electronics Borg, and you'll save a bunch of
money.

I get most of my small quantity cabling from
http://www.monoprice.com these days.  very good prices, shipping
charges that reflect reality, and fast service.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mikey at b2systems.com  Tue Apr  7 11:11:41 2009
From: mikey at b2systems.com (mike rambour)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:11:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W47098FA9F5CC63A6B766129A850@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BAY108-W47098FA9F5CC63A6B766129A850@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1239124301.7638.128.camel@WebBrowser>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 12:40 -0400, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> I just bought pair of rj-45 jacks and wall plates from HD for about $4 for
> jacks and maybe $2 for the wall plates.  You need to strip back and "punch
> down" the individual wires, which I have not done in many years, and the jack
> comes with a cheap plastic tool to do this - so no idea how well that will
> work.  Was going to do it one night this week...

 That cheap little punch tool works just fine, did not mess up a single
connection :)

> I have to wonder though how much demand for wiring homes with Cat5 has dropped
> off since wireless has gotten more ubiquitous and cheap.  There are still
> places for it.
 
 Wireless is neat and easy.  But I prefer the speed of a wired
connection and my garage is detached, wireless was not fast enough by
the time it traveled the distance.  My daughter uses only wireless
around the house, me ? I still plugin my laptop :)

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Apr  7 11:13:54 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:13:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <49DB89D2.9070904@xxiii.com>

David Hillman wrote:
>    Unless you only have, and exclusively use, desktop machines in 
> specific locations... go wireless.  It's so much easier to just have a 
> couple laptops, and wireless everywhere in the house.

I'm still not a fan of wireless.  It's fast enough for web surfing (ie: 
  faster than your internet connection) but slow for bulk things, like 
transferring that entire video file between machines, or doing backups. 
   I get a solid 10MB/sec on 100-BT, and 25-70MB/sec on wired gigabit. 
It's also unreliable, insecure, nonstandard, and dang it, I just don't 
like it.

>    The cable you want is Cat5, and the connectors are RJ-45.  It's been 
> about fifteen years since I cabled a building, but I remember that 
> crimping 8-wire cat5 was not something we did for the enjoyment.

Sorry, but Cat-5 came out in 1991 and is considered obsolete.  Cat-6e is 
current and Cat-7 is proposed.  AT LEAST run high-grade wire -- it's the 
most labor intensive part of the job.  You can buy cheap low-grade jacks 
and replace them if better is needed.

Crimping plugs on cables is something a pro should know how to do in a 
pinch.  But pre-made cables are way too cheap and good nowadays to screw 
with the cost of a crimp tool or your labor time.

-Wayne

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Apr  7 11:28:20 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
Message-ID: <200904071728.n37HSKur019042@moose.dimebank.com>

>   I think A is the standard for phones so it
> might be a better wiring scheme since the jack can now be used for
> phones OR network, but I am not sure of that.

Right - this is the nice thing about A, you can plug an RJ11 into
the RJ45 and it will just work.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Apr  7 12:10:29 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:10:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071406170.5454@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, David Hillman wrote:
>> I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 'server' 
>> pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream video, etc.
>
>   Unless you only have, and exclusively use, desktop machines in specific 
> locations... go wireless.  It's so much easier to just have a couple laptops, 
> and wireless everywhere in the house.

Speed is the problem.  100Mb or 1Gb wired connection vs. 54Mb wireless 
(best case, which isn't the case with my existing setup).

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Apr  7 12:17:12 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:17:12 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <200904071728.n37HSKur019042@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200904071728.n37HSKur019042@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <087b01c9b7ad$12e71890$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Right - this is the nice thing about A, you can plug an RJ11 into
> the RJ45 and it will just work.

I'm pretty sure the same thing holds for B.  Phones don't care about pairing
nearly as much as Ethernet does; and the pairing is the only difference
between 568A and 568B.

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Apr  7 12:25:40 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:25:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <200904071634.n37GYOCa003006@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200904071634.n37GYOCa003006@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071421550.5454@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Thanks for the advice so far.

So it sounds like I want CAT 5e minimum, along with wall mounts with punch 
down connections on the jacks?  I'll use store bought patch cables to go 
from the wall to the equipment.

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
> You'll find CAT 5E or CAT 6 cable, and either one is good for up to
> gigabit speeds with no problem. If you're running jack-to-jack,
> just follow the color codes on the jack - make sure that you choose
> "type A" or "type B" and stay consistent.
>
> http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/ethernetcables.html

I don't get the A vs. B stuff... Is this just for the color scheme used? 
The pin outs look to be identical, so I don't see how this would matter, 
other than if you wanted all your colors to end up in the same place on 
the connector for multiple runs.  In particular I don't see how one would 
work for a phone connection and one wouldn't, if the pin outs on the 
connector are the same?

Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Apr  7 12:30:19 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:30:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <49DB89D2.9070904@xxiii.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com> <49DB89D2.9070904@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <20090407140647.P96844@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Wayne wrote:
> I'm still not a fan of wireless.  It's fast enough for web surfing (ie: 
> faster than your internet connection) but slow for bulk things, like 
> transferring that entire video file between machines, or doing backups.   I 
> get a solid 10MB/sec on 100-BT, and 25-70MB/sec on wired gigabit. It's also 
> unreliable, insecure, nonstandard, and dang it, I just don't like it.

    I won't turn this into a debate, but for the record, I watched most of 
the NCAA tournament streamed wirelessly to my laptop.  The TV-quality 
video never paused to buffer.  YMMV.  Also, my LAN never goes down, except 
when I have to reboot my cable modem because that connection died.  It's 
'secure enough' for my purposes, and anyone who doesn't shred all their 
garbage.

    If it's good enough to put on commercial airplanes, it'll probably work 
in your house.

> Sorry, but Cat-5 came out in 1991 and is considered obsolete.  Cat-6e is 
> current and Cat-7 is proposed.  AT LEAST run high-grade wire -- it's the most 
> labor intensive part of the job.  You can buy cheap low-grade jacks and 
> replace them if better is needed.

    One could argue that cables are considered obsolete, or at least 
'non-standard', in a residential installation.  All of the office 
buildings in the park where I work run wireless, and so do both of the 
restaurants.  At least a half-dozen of my neighbors, do too.

--
  David Hillman

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Apr  7 12:53:30 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:53:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <087b01c9b7ad$12e71890$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <200904071728.n37HSKur019042@moose.dimebank.com>
	<087b01c9b7ad$12e71890$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <49DBA12A.7010908@xxiii.com>

Randall wrote:
> I'm pretty sure the same thing holds for B.  Phones don't care about pairing
> nearly as much as Ethernet does; and the pairing is the only difference
> between 568A and 568B.

Correct.  Both 568A & 568B, as applied to modular connector wiring, only 
swap the 2nd & 3rd pairs (orange & green) around.  Both configurations 
are electrically identical, with "straight through" wiring.  Analog 
"POTS" phones only use the 1st blue pair and it's identically positioned 
  on both anyway.  568B is preferred.

On old wiring, like cat-3, the 4th brown pair was often lower quality 
with hardly any twisting and was unsuitable for some data applications. 
  Half duplex 10Mb & 100Mb only use the 2nd and 3rd pair.  Full duplex 
100Mb & 1000Mb use all four pairs.

-Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 13:03:24 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:03:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <087b01c9b7ad$12e71890$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <200904071728.n37HSKur019042@moose.dimebank.com>
	<087b01c9b7ad$12e71890$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904071203l6ca7bf55uaaadb9566a09a947@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> Right - this is the nice thing about A, you can plug an RJ11 into
>> the RJ45 and it will just work.
>
> I'm pretty sure the same thing holds for B. B Phones don't care about
pairing
> nearly as much as Ethernet does; and the pairing is the only difference
> between 568A and 568B.
>

Sort of.  POTS single-line phones will work fine on T568B.  Two line
phones may, or may not.  It depends on how the cross connect stuff is
done.

If you're doing a new installation, go with T568A.  There's very
little reason not to; it's the preferred solution, and I expect T568B
will eventually die.




--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Apr  7 13:05:10 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:05:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <20090407140647.P96844@itonami.pair.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com> <49DB89D2.9070904@xxiii.com>
	<20090407140647.P96844@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071503340.6891@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, David Hillman wrote:
>   I won't turn this into a debate, but for the record, I watched most of 
> the NCAA tournament streamed wirelessly to my laptop.  The TV-quality 
> video never paused to buffer.  YMMV.

Dude, its cool that wireless works for your situation.  But we wouldn't be 
having this conversation if it was fast enough for _my_ situation.  In my 
case I've seen the real world difference in speed between a wired and 
wireless connection and its enough to matter for me and what I'm doing.

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 13:43:42 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:43:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <49DBA12A.7010908@xxiii.com>
References: <200904071728.n37HSKur019042@moose.dimebank.com>
	<087b01c9b7ad$12e71890$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<49DBA12A.7010908@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904071243udb787e3uafc2b1218c2c7efe@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> Randall wrote:
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the same thing holds for B. B Phones don't care about
>> pairing
>> nearly as much as Ethernet does; and the pairing is the only difference
>> between 568A and 568B.
>
> Correct. B Both 568A & 568B, as applied to modular connector wiring, only
> swap the 2nd & 3rd pairs (orange & green) around. B Both configurations are
> electrically identical, with "straight through" wiring. B Analog "POTS"
> phones only use the 1st blue pair and it's identically positioned B on both
> anyway. B 568B is preferred.
>

No.  T568B is not preferred.  It's probably more commonly used in the
US than T568A, and if you're already using it, keep doing so.  But the
current accepted practice is to use t568A on new installations; that's
what EIA recommends.  The issue with phone equipment is that using
568B puts pair three on pins 3 and 6.  (That's the second pair of
pins, counting from the center.)  That confuses people, in particular,
telco craft people, who are paid to be easily confused.  The
structured cabling that was (and still is, in dedicated phone
installs) used for phone wiring had pair 1 on the inner most pair of
pins, pair 2 on the second inner-most pair, pair 3 on the third
innermost pair, and pair four on the outer two pins.  (this is called
Universal Service Order Codes, USOC.)  T568A is compatible with the
two pairs that are commonly used in telco patch cabling.

I have no idea why T pushed 258A (which is what they called T568B when
they invented it, and why T568B is common in the US, but unknown in
the rest of the world) instead of something that was compatible with
what they'd done for USOC.





--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Apr  7 14:23:37 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:23:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
Message-ID: <200904072023.n37KNbjJ006107@moose.dimebank.com>

> > http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/ethernetcables.html
> 
> I don't get the A vs. B stuff... Is this just for the color scheme used? 
> The pin outs look to be identical, so I don't see how this would matter, 
> other than if you wanted all your colors to end up in the same place on 
> the connector for multiple runs.  In particular I don't see how one would 
> work for a phone connection and one wouldn't, if the pin outs on the 
> connector are the same?

The only difference is the colors, and how it relates to the color coding
in two-pair phone wiring, and how pairs are counted. 

http://www.actcabling.com/t568a-t568b-termination.htm

has a good diagram and some explanation ... but it really
is fairly confusing/arcane. The point is that a "two-pair" cable
system as might be used for a voice phone will be more color
consistent with T568A ... even if most ethernet wiring plants
are wired in T568B.

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Apr  7 14:27:51 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:27:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
Message-ID: <200904072027.n37KRpZr017078@moose.dimebank.com>

> 568B is preferred.

By whom? :-) The United States National Communication Systems Federal
Telecommunications Recommendations do not recognize T568B.  TIA/EIA
recommends T568A for new construction and is common in rest of
world.  (The ANSI/EIA/TIA-570 standard, 'Residential Telecommunications
Cabling Standard', should be followed. It indicates the use of T568A
for residences.)

It's all incredibly confusing, and really doesn't matter unless
you're a Bell-head.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Apr  7 14:40:12 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:40:12 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40904071203l6ca7bf55uaaadb9566a09a947@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904071728.n37HSKur019042@moose.dimebank.com>
	<087b01c9b7ad$12e71890$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<2400a5d40904071203l6ca7bf55uaaadb9566a09a947@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08ac01c9b7c1$0d15e680$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Sort of.  POTS single-line phones will work fine on T568B.  Two line
> phones may, or may not.  It depends on how the cross connect stuff is
> done.

I'm not following you here, David.  Even with a 2-line phone, as long as the
patch cords are wired 1-1, they should not care which wire is paired with
which wire.  That has been true even for the multi-line digital signaling
systems I've worked with.  The only real difference between 568A termination
and 568B termination is the color of the pairs ... can your phones see in
color?
<G>

> If you're doing a new installation, go with T568A.  There's very
> little reason not to; it's the preferred solution, and I expect T568B
> will eventually die.

I presume you mean the 568A termination, rather than the obsolete 568A
standard.  The old standard didn't even mention Cat 5e, let alone Cat 6.
However EIA-568-B recommends using the 568A termination.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Apr  7 14:46:56 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:46:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071421550.5454@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <200904071634.n37GYOCa003006@moose.dimebank.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071421550.5454@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <08b301c9b7c1$fdb134f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> So it sounds like I want CAT 5e minimum, along with wall mounts with punch
> down connections on the jacks?  I'll use store bought patch cables to go
> from the wall to the equipment.

Should work dandy, Mark.

Randall

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Apr  7 14:49:05 2009
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:49:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071503340.6891@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20090407122642.Y96844@itonami.pair.com> <49DB89D2.9070904@xxiii.com>
	<20090407140647.P96844@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071503340.6891@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20090407164443.P96844@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Mark Andy wrote:
> Dude, its cool that wireless works for your situation.  But we wouldn't be 
> having this conversation if it was fast enough for _my_ situation.  In my 
> case I've seen the real world difference in speed between a wired and 
> wireless connection and its enough to matter for me and what I'm doing.

    Dude, that's cool, too.  I was talking to the guy who claimed that 
wireless is "unreliable, insecure, nonstandard" and only suitable for 
web-browsing.  That's pretty far from reality.

    Have fun punching holes in your walls.  Seriously.

--
  David Hillman

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Apr  7 23:56:31 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:56:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40904071007i782acdedpa5d84b347e2ecec2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904071214310.1577@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<2400a5d40904071007i782acdedpa5d84b347e2ecec2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6004709215814868841FA9BB6101BB4C@HPPavilion>

I'll second David' suggestion for www.monoprice.com.  Excellent source.
I'll also second his suggestion to buy the patch cables, especially from a
patch panel to a switch.

Wired versus wireless: We can run the same video file from our home server
onto two wireless desktop machines just fine, but when I back anything up
and it goes wireless instead of wired, the difference is apparent.  Wired,
even 100 Mbps, blows wireless away in the data transfer arena.  I will be
wiring the house shortly using Gigabit (1,000 Mbps) switches.  Wireless is
not even in the same league.

Jack  

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of David Scheidt
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:08 AM
To: Mark Andy
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] running ethernet wires

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I need a higher speed network connection from my office (where my 'server'
> pc lives) to the living room (where my PS3 lives) to stream video, etc.
>
> Is there anything magical or to watch out for in terms of running 
> ethernet wires, or is it a trip to Lowes/HD to buy some ethernet 
> cable, some connectors / baseboard plates, and a cheapo crimper?
>
> Even if I get energetic and run wires to other rooms, I'm probably 
> going to be running < 10 wires.
>
> I know I need switches etc. to connect to the network. I'm fine with 
> that stuff. B Its the "how do I connect an RJ-whatever connector to 
> the ethernet cable and what spec ethernet cable do I want" part I 
> could use some advice on, if its not going to be obvious at Lowes/HD.

If you're doing fixed wiring, with jacks in wall plates, this is a
reasonable way to go.  (Though you'll pay a substantial premium for buying
from the Borg.)  If what you're planning on doing is running patch cables,
then do yourself a favor, and buy them.  They're as cheap as buying the wire
and connectors, or even cheaper; they're done by machine, so they're loads
more reliable.  And, if you're doing fixed wiring, buy your patch cables.
Resist the temptation to buy them from the Borg or an electronics Borg, and
you'll save a bunch of money.

I get most of my small quantity cabling from http://www.monoprice.com these
days.  very good prices, shipping charges that reflect reality, and fast
service.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Apr  9 06:20:39 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:20:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
Message-ID: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>

I've got a math problem (actually trig) that I need help with.  Picture an
engine hoist with the boom horizontal.  the pivot point at one end... the
jacking point 1' in from that and the hook at the other end eight feet away.

I need to calculate the amount of lift at the hook end if you raise the jack
point 1".  I know how to figure it from the pivot point using that jack point
1" away is hanging me up.  If I know the lift with one inch of rise at the
jack point the multiplication tables will do the rest, right ????

here's a picture of what I'm doing

http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/misc/boomraise.jpg

thanks
John


I think I've figured it out.....
my sole purpose in life is to serve as
a bad example  :(

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 09:46:05 2009
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:46:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ??? come here
In-Reply-To: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>
References: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <bdde53220904090846i78bae511n8b275ca308e48338@mail.gmail.com>

The slope of the red line in your drawing is 1" per foot.  So in 8' it will
raise 8".  If you were to raise it 2" in a foot it would be up 16" after 8',
etc.

-Paul

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 8:20 AM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:

> I've got a math problem (actually trig) that I need help with.  Picture an
> engine hoist with the boom horizontal.  the pivot point at one end... the
> jacking point 1' in from that and the hook at the other end eight feet
> away.
>
> I need to calculate the amount of lift at the hook end if you raise the
> jack
> point 1".  I know how to figure it from the pivot point using that jack
> point
> 1" away is hanging me up.  If I know the lift with one inch of rise at the
> jack point the multiplication tables will do the rest, right ????
>
> here's a picture of what I'm doing
>
> http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/misc/boomraise.jpg
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
> I think I've figured it out.....
> my sole purpose in life is to serve as
> a bad example  :(
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Apr  9 10:22:08 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:22:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
In-Reply-To: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>
References: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <02eb01c9b92f$54c3a840$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> If I know the lift with one inch of rise at the
> jack point the multiplication tables will do the rest, right ????

Depends on how accurately you need to know it, and what range you are
working over.  Also how you measure the rise at the jack point.

If the jack, load and pivot are attached to the boom at fixed locations; and
you are measuring "lift" in parallel directions (eg vertically), then the
ratio remains fixed (ignoring boom flex, etc.) within the mechanical limits
of motion.  With the jack 1' away from the pivot and the load 8' away from
the pivot (7' away from the jack), the ratio is 8:1.

But with a typical boom hoist, the "jack" is not vertical and its angle
changes as the boom rises.  Which means that the relative rate of jack
motion (measured along the piston), and load motion measured vertically is
going to change as the boom moves.  In other words, the ratio you are asking
for is not a constant.

Unless you actually need to know the equation for some reason, I would
suggest picking the two extremes you are interested in, and working
backwards from there.

Randall

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Thu Apr  9 11:27:21 2009
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:27:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
In-Reply-To: <02eb01c9b92f$54c3a840$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>
	<02eb01c9b92f$54c3a840$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <02b801c9b938$70bc5e30$52351a90$@net>

The answer is 42 of course!


Thanks

Ron Schmittou
Ron_S at agps.us

Office (972) 359-1787                          
Cell (214) 862-1871                           

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:22 AM
To: 'john niolon'; 'shop-talk'
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] math wizards ??? come here

> If I know the lift with one inch of rise at the
> jack point the multiplication tables will do the rest, right ????

Depends on how accurately you need to know it, and what range you are
working over.  Also how you measure the rise at the jack point.

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Apr  9 11:35:08 2009
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:35:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
References: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <001d01c9b939$874f85e0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

You need a few more pieces of information in order to do the trig.  You'll 
need:
1, the angle of the boom,
2, the distance from the hinge of the boom to the lift cylinder, and
3, the distance from the hinge of the boom to the hook.

Then it's just straight trig.  tangent of the angle equals opposite over 
adjacent.
http://tutorial.math.lamar.edu/pdf/Trig_Cheat_Sheet_Reduced.pdf

Not sure if it's significant for your application, but your hook will be 
moving horizontally towards the hinge of the boom as the boom goes up.  The 
more vertical the boom is, the more dramatic the horizontal motion of the 
hook.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 8:20 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ??? come here


> I've got a math problem (actually trig) that I need help with.  Picture an
> engine hoist with the boom horizontal.  the pivot point at one end... the
> jacking point 1' in from that and the hook at the other end eight feet 
> away.
>
> I need to calculate the amount of lift at the hook end if you raise the 
> jack
> point 1".  I know how to figure it from the pivot point using that jack 
> point
> 1" away is hanging me up.  If I know the lift with one inch of rise at the
> jack point the multiplication tables will do the rest, right ????
>
> here's a picture of what I'm doing
>
> http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/misc/boomraise.jpg
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
> I think I've figured it out.....
> my sole purpose in life is to serve as
> a bad example  :(
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as opposumking at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Apr  9 12:44:46 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:44:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
Message-ID: <200904091844.n39IikNn007305@moose.dimebank.com>

> You need a few more pieces of information in order to do the trig.  

Not really ... as Randall pointed out, 'similar triangles' gets
it done with what he's got, since all the ratios remain the same.

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 15:10:31 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:10:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ??? come here
In-Reply-To: <02b801c9b938$70bc5e30$52351a90$@net>
References: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC>
	<02eb01c9b92f$54c3a840$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<02b801c9b938$70bc5e30$52351a90$@net>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0904091410i4e02acf9yd261dbc6a2d2c568@mail.gmail.com>

6  times 8 ?  Not sure that is the right calculation for this application.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Ron Schmittou <rs1121 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> The answer is 42 of course!
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Ron Schmittou
> Ron_S at agps.us
>
> Office (972) 359-1787
> Cell (214) 862-1871
>


-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Apr  9 16:40:57 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:40:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ??? come here
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0904091410i4e02acf9yd261dbc6a2d2c568@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8BE9A7D094A14BD9973C57B4712F874E@OwnerPC><02eb01c9b92f$54c3a840$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com><02b801c9b938$70bc5e30$52351a90$@net>
	<abb8688a0904091410i4e02acf9yd261dbc6a2d2c568@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <036901c9b964$4092a3f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> 6  times 8 ?  Not sure that is the right calculation for this application.

Right.  Now we have to find out what the question was!

-- Randall 

From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Thu Apr  9 17:32:24 2009
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:32:24 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
Message-ID: <c24.5aeb6d1c.370fdf88@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/9/09 12:49:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
cak at dimebank.com writes:

> You  need a few more pieces of information in order to do the trig.   

Not really ... as Randall pointed out, 'similar triangles' gets
it  done with what he's got, since all the ratios remain the  same.



Only if the boom has a slide on it, allowing the boom to lengthen as it  
rises;  Given that he has the length from the hinge to the hook and  the  
length from the hinge to the jacking point, a trig. table or a  scientific 
calculator should give  the angle of which the tangent is  1"/12"; then that 
angle's tangent, multiplied by 96" should give the height  of the hook above 
level.
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 
or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)

From Opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Apr  9 18:59:12 2009
From: Opposumking at verizon.net (Opposumking)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:59:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
References: <200904091844.n39IikNn007305@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <E3BDDAB22AA9458797AB02668C925B74@oldhal>

Nope.  This is rotating about the pivot point.  The ratios change.

For example, the ratio when horizontal is nearly 8:1.  When it's vertical, 
it's 1:1.

You can "rough guess" it, but since he's interested in precision, one should 
do the math correctly and precisely.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Kantarjiev" <cak at dimebank.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] math wizards ??? come here


>> You need a few more pieces of information in order to do the trig.
>
> Not really ... as Randall pointed out, 'similar triangles' gets
> it done with what he's got, since all the ratios remain the same.

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  9 19:20:43 2009
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 18:20:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
In-Reply-To: <c24.5aeb6d1c.370fdf88@aol.com>
References: <c24.5aeb6d1c.370fdf88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <767tt4dut1ebcshkf84jdrfb9m5ipr655q@4ax.com>

use a sine function, not a tangent, since you have the hypotenuse and
the side opposite the angle given.
side note:  tan and  sine of relatively small angles are just about
the same number since tan = sin/cos and cos of small angles is close
to 1.0

-Roland

On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:32:24 EDT, you wrote:

::In a message dated 4/9/09 12:49:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
::cak at dimebank.com writes:
::
::> You  need a few more pieces of information in order to do the trig.
::
::Not really ... as Randall pointed out, 'similar triangles' gets
::it  done with what he's got, since all the ratios remain the  same.
::
::
::
::Only if the boom has a slide on it, allowing the boom to lengthen as it
::rises;  Given that he has the length from the hinge to the hook and  the
::length from the hinge to the jacking point, a trig. table or a  scientific
::calculator should give  the angle of which the tangent is  1"/12"; then that
::angle's tangent, multiplied by 96" should give the height  of the hook above
::level.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Apr  9 19:34:01 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:34:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
References: <c24.5aeb6d1c.370fdf88@aol.com>
	<767tt4dut1ebcshkf84jdrfb9m5ipr655q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <100E0332CC11484D89976B6A617FF34D@KARL>

What's so complicated here ?  No trig needed - simple geometry no matter 
what the angle (the angle must theoretically be less than 90 degrees, 
practically it has to be less than about 75 degrees because of physical 
constraints of most engine cranes)

As drawn, 1" of lift at the jack point (1' from the pivot) results in 
exactly 8" of lift at the lift point (8' from the pivot).  As someone said - 
similar triangles.

Karl



> use a sine function, not a tangent, since you have the hypotenuse and
> the side opposite the angle given.
> side note:  tan and  sine of relatively small angles are just about
> the same number since tan = sin/cos and cos of small angles is close
> to 1.0
>
> -Roland
>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:32:24 EDT, you wrote:
>
> ::In a message dated 4/9/09 12:49:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> ::cak at dimebank.com writes:
> ::
> ::> You  need a few more pieces of information in order to do the trig.
> ::
> ::Not really ... as Randall pointed out, 'similar triangles' gets
> ::it  done with what he's got, since all the ratios remain the  same.
> ::
> ::
> ::
> ::Only if the boom has a slide on it, allowing the boom to lengthen as it
> ::rises;  Given that he has the length from the hinge to the hook and  the
> ::length from the hinge to the jacking point, a trig. table or a 
> scientific
> ::calculator should give  the angle of which the tangent is  1"/12"; then 
> that
> ::angle's tangent, multiplied by 96" should give the height  of the hook 
> above
> ::level.

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Apr  9 19:47:33 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
Message-ID: <200904100147.n3A1lXn1007218@moose.dimebank.com>

> Nope.  This is rotating about the pivot point.  The ratios change.
> 
> For example, the ratio when horizontal is nearly 8:1.  When it's vertical, 
> it's 1:1.

Hmm. OK, I thought he was trying to predict a static setup that
was shown in the drawing. My mistake.

From Opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Apr  9 19:49:40 2009
From: Opposumking at verizon.net (Opposumking)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:49:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] math wizards ???  come here
References: <c24.5aeb6d1c.370fdf88@aol.com>
	<767tt4dut1ebcshkf84jdrfb9m5ipr655q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <9E56C93C7F1948FAADF9F2ABA3D2ED85@oldhal>

You don't have the hypotenuse of the smaller triangle because you don't know 
where the cylinder pin is located on the lift arm.

That's why I said a bit more information is needed to do the trig and get a 
correct answer.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wilhelmy" <rwil at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Shop-Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] math wizards ??? come here


> use a sine function, not a tangent, since you have the hypotenuse and
> the side opposite the angle given.
> side note:  tan and  sine of relatively small angles are just about
> the same number since tan = sin/cos and cos of small angles is close
> to 1.0
>
> -Roland

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Apr  9 20:21:14 2009
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 21:21:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] math gurus... come here...
Message-ID: <5B5F91A685B648B98AD4E6B298D28FC4@niolon>

well, it's certainly been an interesting discussion and brought back days of 
surveying calculations with a 4 function calculator and a pocket trig 
table.... but here's the correct answer...

I finally got the time to dig out my hoist and do some measurements (actual 
not theoretical))

one inch of lift at the jack point from horizontal produced 3.5 inches of 
lift at the hook end

then next inch of lift produced 3.75" of hook lift. and it varied between 
those two numbers up to about 10 inches at the jack point.

I wasn't looking for really precision answers and since angles and such do 
change over the range of motion that calculation would be complicated for 
sure... basically I was looking for an approximation and I got it after 
nearly emptying my shed out into the yard to locate my hoist... but another 
benefit of this exercise (for me anyway) was that I found a hydraulic pump I 
had been looking for and found a nice field mice nest that has been 
eliminated.

don't know why the actual didn't jive more with the theoreticals ???  maybe 
we didn't consider moon phases...

thanks for all the effort and lively discussion..


now the next question... how does stuff get to the back of a huge pile that 
just last year was at the front of that same pile, and in the way, when 
searching for something else... now I KNOW that's got moon phases all over 
it !
later
John



"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much 
government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering) 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Apr 10 05:14:59 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:14:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] math gurus... come here...
In-Reply-To: <5B5F91A685B648B98AD4E6B298D28FC4@niolon>
References: <5B5F91A685B648B98AD4E6B298D28FC4@niolon>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090410071300.01cc6020@cox.net>

At 10:21 PM 4/9/2009, john niolon wrote:

 >....  now the next question... how does stuff get to the back of a 
huge pile that
 >just last year was at the front of that same pile, and in the way, when
 >searching for something else... now I KNOW that's got moon phases all over
 >it !

John,

That one is easier to answer.  Chaos theory, gremlins, and polterguist.

Don't you know when you close the doors and walk away, all the stuff has a
party.   Just look at all those documentary movies on the subject 
like Toy Story,
etc.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Apr 16 16:20:59 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
Message-ID: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I just got delivered a nice cute 8x12 garden shed, which will hold all the yard and garden stuff that is currently cluttering up my garage and reducing the space available for shop tools, etc.

The shed has a plain unfinished plywood floor.  Can anyone suggest an inexpensive flooring material that would help it better resist moisture, damage, etc?  Do they still sell inexpensive linoleum in wide rolls?

Thanks,

Doug

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Apr 16 17:09:55 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:09:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
In-Reply-To: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090416185736.01ff3250@cox.net>

At 06:20 PM 4/16/2009, Doug Braun wrote:

 >I just got delivered a nice cute 8x12 garden shed, which will hold 
all the yard
 >and garden stuff that is currently cluttering up my garage and reducing the
 >space available for shop tools, etc.

 >The shed has a plain unfinished plywood floor.  Can anyone suggest an
 >inexpensive flooring material that would help it better resist 
moisture, damage,
 >etc?  Do they still sell inexpensive linoleum in wide rolls?

Doug,

I just went through that last year.  I had an erector set metal shed 
that I'd put up
over 10 yrs ago.  I put it up on cinderblock piers and then used the 
flimsy floor
kit and laid 3/4" plywood over it.   So it was off the ground by a 
good 6 inches.

It lasted at least 10 yrs.  But about 1 1/2 yrs ago I went into the 
shed to get
something out, and the plywood had rotted and gave way.  So it was time to
replace the shed.  I wanted to put up the new shed in Oct - Dec. of 07 but when
I went looking for a shed no one was selling them any more.  Had to wait till
Spring.  I finally found what I want'ed, a 10'w x 8' deep vinyl shed 
and the 4'
extension.  I ordered it in March, but it wasn't delivered until the 
end of June
08.

The area were I wanted to put the shed is a low part in my yard and prone to
minor flooding in heavy rains.  So I needed to get the shed up in the air some.
I bought some garden timbers and laid them around the parimeter of where the
shed was going, 2 timbers tall.  Then I filled that to about 3" from 
the top of
I got some crush-n-run and filled in the rectangle sand box up past 
the 1st timber.   I laid a heavy plastic vapor barrier, and then laid 
solid cinder blocks
down as the main floor, and mounted the shed to the cinder blocks.

I don't have to worry about any critters getting under the new shed, or falling
through the floor any more!

I've got some pictures I can email if anyone is interested.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Apr 16 17:25:43 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:25:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Re:  Shed Flooring
Message-ID: <101765.28214.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 4/16/09, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> From: Doug
Braun <doug at dougbraun.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
> To:
"Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, April 16,
2009, 7:25 PM
> It's a little late for that....
> 
> Since the site was a bit
sloped, I built a low 9x13
> retaining wall from
> 4x6s and put a couple of
cubic yards of gravel in it to
> form a level base.
> 
> The shed itself is
built on a couple of 4x4
> pressure-treated skids,
> and the delivery guy
basically plopped it down onto my
> prepared base.
> 
> Doug
> 
> --- On Thu,
4/16/09, Elton E. (Tony) Clark <eltonclark at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From:
Elton E. (Tony) Clark <eltonclark at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shed
Flooring
> > To: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
> > Date: Thursday, April
16, 2009, 7:19 PM
> > Consider building your own simple form
> > and having a
concrete man pour a slab . . last
> forever,
> > anchors your shed, etc.  
(been there & done
> that)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 18:38:15 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:38:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
In-Reply-To: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904161738j12218514vc266c4f3d1515aa7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I just got delivered a nice cute 8x12 garden shed, which will hold all the
yard and garden stuff that is currently cluttering up my garage and reducing
the space available for shop tools, etc.
>
> The shed has a plain unfinished plywood floor. B Can anyone suggest an
inexpensive flooring material that would help it better resist moisture,
damage, etc? B Do they still sell inexpensive linoleum in wide rolls?

Real linoleum is available.  Most of what you see in stores is vinyl.
Linoleum is tougher than vinyl, and will hold up better as a shed
floor.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Apr 16 19:05:54 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:05:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
In-Reply-To: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B6BCAB68E099498E9FDF6AF6E86A8870@HPPavilion>

Doug,

I'd be concerned about trapping moisture between the plywood and the
linoleum.  I used a single layer of 3/4 inch pressure treated plywood as my
floor in a 12x14 shed.  Perhaps just a nice stain and replace it if it
becomes scarred up over the years?

Jack  

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Doug Braun
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:21 PM
To: Shop-Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring

Hello,

I just got delivered a nice cute 8x12 garden shed, which will hold all the
yard and garden stuff that is currently cluttering up my garage and reducing
the space available for shop tools, etc.

The shed has a plain unfinished plywood floor.  Can anyone suggest an
inexpensive flooring material that would help it better resist moisture,
damage, etc?  Do they still sell inexpensive linoleum in wide rolls?

Thanks,

Doug
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From drew at DasRogges.com  Fri Apr 17 08:38:43 2009
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:38:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
Message-ID: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com>

Hi all,

I want to add some permanent irrigation pipes to some Walnut trees and
need to find the closest water source to hook in to. We purchased the
property about a year ago and know where the faucets are in the yard
but don't know the route of the PVC pipes that run between them. Other
than digging test holes, the only way that I can think of to try to find
the pipes is to turn the faucet on and use one of those stethoscope thingys
with the tube on it to see if I can hear the water running at various
places on the property.

Anyone have any other idea? A water witcher?

Thanks,
Drew

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Apr 17 15:28:46 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:28:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
In-Reply-To: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com>
References: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <3FA28961E3D84897864A3CD19275BD93@jdnet.deere.com>

> Anyone have any other idea? 

Ok, this is kind of screwball, but it might work: Put a buzzer or better yet
some sort of speaker playing a readily recognized noise on the pipes where
they are exposed.  The water in the pipes should carry the sound better than
the surrounding soil, so a mechanic's stethoscope or similar should let you
map out the pipes.  Maybe?

-- Randall

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 17 17:42:54 2009
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:42:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
In-Reply-To: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com>
References: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <49E913FE.2070804@earthlink.net>

Drew - I've traced assorted PCV and ABS pipe with a metal rod attached 
to a 2x4 handle.  I know where it started, so just poked in the ground 
till I hit the pipe.  I then moved a bit further and poked till I hit 
the pipe again.  Every place I hit the pipe, I put down a rock.  Once I 
had the direction down, it was easier to guess the path till the pipe 
changed direction.  This is good for pipe up to about 2 feet down in my 
clay soil.

Brian

Drew Rogge wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I want to add some permanent irrigation pipes to some Walnut trees and
> need to find the closest water source to hook in to. We purchased the
> property about a year ago and know where the faucets are in the yard
> but don't know the route of the PVC pipes that run between them. Other
> than digging test holes, the only way that I can think of to try to find
> the pipes is to turn the faucet on and use one of those stethoscope 
> thingys
> with the tube on it to see if I can hear the water running at various
> places on the property.
>
> Anyone have any other idea? A water witcher?
>
> Thanks,
> Drew
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:20:20 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:20:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
In-Reply-To: <49E913FE.2070804@earthlink.net>
References: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com> <49E913FE.2070804@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904171820k407961bi6e89bffcd9fa965e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Drew - I've traced assorted PCV and ABS pipe with a metal rod attached to a
> 2x4 handle. B I know where it started, so just poked in the ground till I
hit
> the pipe. B I then moved a bit further and poked till I hit the pipe again.
> B Every place I hit the pipe, I put down a rock. B Once I had the direction
> down, it was easier to guess the path till the pipe changed direction.
B This
> is good for pipe up to about 2 feet down in my clay soil.
>

That's what I've seen the sprinkler repair people do, more or less.
It helps to figure out what length the pipes the people who laid the
pipe used, since it's unlikely they'd turn any corners they don' have
to.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Apr 17 19:40:41 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:40:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
Message-ID: <85918.59264.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Or have somebody bang on an exposed portion of the pipe and listen for that.
Doug

--- On Fri, 4/17/09, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> From:
Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Finding underground
plastic water pipes.
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Friday, April 17,
2009, 5:28 PM
> > Anyone have any other idea? 
> 
> Ok, this is kind of
screwball, but it might work: Put a
> buzzer or better yet
> some sort of
speaker playing a readily recognized noise on
> the pipes where
> they are
exposed.  The water in the pipes should carry
> the sound better than
> the
surrounding soil, so a mechanic's stethoscope or
> similar should let you
>
map out the pipes.  Maybe?
> 
> -- Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Apr 17 19:54:06 2009
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:54:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
In-Reply-To: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com>
References: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <CBF2F4198AF64CCE9EEAD1B971C540A1@HPPavilion>

Divining rod - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divining_rod  Hey, if it's on
Wikipedia, it HAS to be true!  <grin>

In all seriousness, I'd give it a try, 'cause you never know until you do,
but I like most of the other suggestions too.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Drew Rogge
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 7:39 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.

Hi all,

I want to add some permanent irrigation pipes to some Walnut trees and need
to find the closest water source to hook in to. We purchased the property
about a year ago and know where the faucets are in the yard but don't know
the route of the PVC pipes that run between them. Other than digging test
holes, the only way that I can think of to try to find the pipes is to turn
the faucet on and use one of those stethoscope thingys with the tube on it
to see if I can hear the water running at various places on the property.

Anyone have any other idea? A water witcher?

Thanks,
Drew
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Apr 17 20:46:28 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:46:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
In-Reply-To: <CBF2F4198AF64CCE9EEAD1B971C540A1@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <20090418024628744.LGUB4341.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com>

> Divining rod - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divining_rod  
> Hey, if it's on Wikipedia, it HAS to be true!  <grin>

Yeah, especially the part about :
"No scientific study has ever shown that divining rods have worked in
practice, under any circumstance."

I've seen it tried, by an old man that claimed to have the "power".  Wrong 3
out of 3.

Randall

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Sat Apr 18 20:13:56 2009
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:13:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
References: <649270.8143.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<B6BCAB68E099498E9FDF6AF6E86A8870@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <E49C27BDB2A2479D8D776A192697D620@fred8kwiskhcfu>

My work shop (10 X 15) will be 16 years old this Sept.and I just layed 
Linoleum right over the 3/4 plywood floor, still seems perfectly level and 
doing just fine, now I'll not mention the @#$%$#@ doors.  FT
===================================================================================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>
To: "'Shop-Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring


> Doug,
>
> I'd be concerned about trapping moisture between the plywood and the
> linoleum.  I used a single layer of 3/4 inch pressure treated plywood as 
> my
> floor in a 12x14 shed.  Perhaps just a nice stain and replace it if it
> becomes scarred up over the years?
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Doug Braun
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:21 PM
> To: Shop-Talk List
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
>
> Hello,
>
> I just got delivered a nice cute 8x12 garden shed, which will hold all the
> yard and garden stuff that is currently cluttering up my garage and 
> reducing
> the space available for shop tools, etc.
>
> The shed has a plain unfinished plywood floor.  Can anyone suggest an
> inexpensive flooring material that would help it better resist moisture,
> damage, etc?  Do they still sell inexpensive linoleum in wide rolls?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
> You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as res8vz9q at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Apr 18 20:35:01 2009
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 19:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
Message-ID: <475622.60796.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yesterday I went to HD and bought two boxes of tough-looking (and heavy)
commercial-grade vinyl composition tiles.  But later when I read the
installation instructions, I learned that they warn against installing the
tiles any place where the temperature would get below 50 degrees.

I realized
that in sub-freezing weather, the tiles could get quite brittle and could
crack or work loose.  The fact that the shed floor is a bit more flexible than
a house subfloor, and that I would be tossing heavy things on it, would only
increase the risk.

So I returned the tiles and adhesive, and decided to
simply paint the floor with some floor paint I had lying around.

HD also had
vinyl flooring in 8x12 rolled-up sheets, but the stuff had extraordinarily
ugly patterns  (e.g. fake woodgrain) and the label also warned about unrolling
it when cold.

Doug



--- On Sat, 4/18/09, FRED E THOMAS
<frede.thomas2 at verizon.net> wrote:

> From: FRED E THOMAS
<frede.thomas2 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
> To:
"Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>, "'Shop-Talk List'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 10:13 PM
> My work shop (10 X 15) will be 16
> years old this Sept.and I just layed 
> Linoleum right over the 3/4 plywood
floor, still seems
> perfectly level and 
> doing just fine, now I'll not
mention the @#$%$#@
> doors.  FT

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Apr 18 21:20:17 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:20:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shed Flooring
In-Reply-To: <475622.60796.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <475622.60796.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <483B5CDF6CE44F4E89D56835C6B37A56@EricJRussellPC>

How about pick up truck bed liner paint? 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From jmitch at snet.net  Sun Apr 19 14:31:12 2009
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:31:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Vehicle dollies
Message-ID: <49EB8A10.4030305@snet.net>

     I purchased a set of 1000lb aluminum wheel dollies form Harbor 
Freight so I can move my Stag around in the basement. 
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93368
With the car on the dollies, it's very difficult to move the car by 
myself.  It actually took 4 of us to move the car sideways into a new 
location today.  I'm looking for a recommendation on another set, that I 
can buy that will make movement easier.  I don't mind paying more for a 
set that actually rolls.  The basement floor is concrete.  Thanks for 
any help.   John Mitchell    72 Stag  76 TR6

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 15:06:23 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:06:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Vehicle dollies
In-Reply-To: <49EB8A10.4030305@snet.net>
References: <49EB8A10.4030305@snet.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904191406u41dce465ye58f5d1376afb47b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 4:31 PM, John Mitchell <jmitch at snet.net> wrote:
> B  B I purchased a set of 1000lb aluminum wheel dollies form Harbor Freight
so
> I can move my Stag around in the basement.
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93368
> With the car on the dollies, it's very difficult to move the car by myself.
> B It actually took 4 of us to move the car sideways into a new location
> today. B I'm looking for a recommendation on another set, that I can buy
that
> will make movement easier. B I don't mind paying more for a set that
actually
>\

The best of them is the real Go-Jak.  they're expensive -- 200 a pop,
or so.  But it takes a huge amount of force to make any of them swivel
their casters.  moving in a straight line is easier.


--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Apr 19 16:54:43 2009
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:54:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Vehicle dollies
Message-ID: <0KID007PAEBC80F0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Have you considered replacing the casters?  This place:

    http://www.tireskate.com/castersforchinese.php

sells replacement casters for "people who made the mistake of buying 
the China special".  They're not cheap, but then again, cheap casters 
is what got you in this predicament in the first place.  Of course, 
there are other sources for casters, including surplus, etc.  Just 
depends how much research and searching you wish to invest in 
this.  BTW, they also sell the whole dolly, if you'd rather go that 
way.  I have no personal experience with their stuff.  Also, Gojak is 
the acknowledged high end in this area, of course at a high end price.

-Steve

At 04:31 PM 4/19/2009, you wrote:
>     I purchased a set of 1000lb aluminum wheel dollies form Harbor 
> Freight so I can move my Stag around in the basement. 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93368
>With the car on the dollies, it's very difficult to move the car by myself.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Apr 19 17:20:10 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:20:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Vehicle dollies
In-Reply-To: <49EB8A10.4030305@snet.net>
Message-ID: <20090419232011041.ZWHP20920.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>

> With the car on the dollies, it's very difficult to move the 
> car by myself.  

I have the steel version from HF.  When I got them, the first thing I did
was to remove the wheels to file away any casting flash and make sure the
clearances were right.  Several wheels had to be filed down to be narrower
than the sleeves they ride on, so they didn't rub against the side brackets.
One wheel had a burr inside the pivot hole that made it turn hard.  Another
wasn't finished properly on the outside so I filed off the high spots.

I also lubed the wheel and caster pivots.

As long as the floor is clean, the car moves quite easily.  I use them
mostly under the TR3, but I've had the Stag on them as well.  With the TR,
more than once I've just leaned on the car a bit and had it move.

Of course, a smooth, hard, level floor is a must.  Any kind of irregularity
means you are trying to lift a ton of car by that much, not an easy task.

Anyway, my point is that you might try servicing the dollies you have before
buying new ones.  Like so many things from HF, they are more like a "kit"
that you have to machine and assemble yourself.  It just happens to come
already bolted together for shipping <G>

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Apr 19 18:44:00 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:44:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chassis enamel
Message-ID: <39B1D1FAEB42425B9878D67FF7E1BB96@KARL>

Not having done any serious amount of restoration work for some time, I'm out
of the loop as to what's good in chassis enamel.  I'm aware of POR-15 (in fact
I have a gallon unopened, which the company assures me is still good if it's
not thickened) but the UV deterioration worries me.

I'll be painting an axle housing, exposed parts of frame rails, brake drums
and backing plates, and misc. small parts from that area of the car.

My best results in the past have been DuPont Corlar epoxy primer and Imron
topcoat, which I'll do if necessary.  However, is there anything worthwhile in
spray cans nowadays ?  Once upon a time I used some incredible epoxy enomel in
spray cans that's still holding up 30+ years later, but is there anything like
that now ?

Thanks !
Karl

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 19:09:18 2009
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:09:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chassis enamel
In-Reply-To: <39B1D1FAEB42425B9878D67FF7E1BB96@KARL>
References: <39B1D1FAEB42425B9878D67FF7E1BB96@KARL>
Message-ID: <ea2385360904191809y25301fa9n53052599bd719438@mail.gmail.com>

*If you do race car restoration, you have some of the books published by
Carroll Smith:  "Engineer to Win", Design to Win", etc. . . He said there
was only one spray paint fit for our use: *
**
*http://www.zynolyte.com/zynopages/rustmaster.asp*
**
*After using 20 or 30 cans of this epoxy spray paint . . I agree!!!!  It can
be hard to find but it's worth it.*
**
*Tony in Texas*



On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> Not having done any serious amount of restoration work for some time, I'm
> out
> of the loop as to what's good in chassis enamel.  I'm aware of POR-15 (in
> fact
> I have a gallon unopened, which the company assures me is still good if
> it's
> not thickened) but the UV deterioration worries me.
>
> I'll be painting an axle housing, exposed parts of frame rails, brake drums
> and backing plates, and misc. small parts from that area of the car.
>
> My best results in the past have been DuPont Corlar epoxy primer and Imron
> topcoat, which I'll do if necessary.  However, is there anything worthwhile
> in
> spray cans nowadays ?  Once upon a time I used some incredible epoxy enomel
> in
> spray cans that's still holding up 30+ years later, but is there anything
> like
> that now ?
>
> Thanks !
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Apr 19 19:42:36 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:42:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chassis enamel
Message-ID: <200904200142.n3K1gaRD005115@moose.dimebank.com>

Is Zynolite still on the market somewhere? I haven't been able
to find it in California for years, and heard rumors that they
had been acquired and the brand went away...

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Apr 19 19:42:06 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:42:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chassis enamel
References: <200904200142.n3K1gaRD005115@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <B624DD7C6B034E4BA3BE7FC9163E331A@KARL>

Their website says they're part of Glidden, which is available through 
Glidden stores and (used to be anyway) Home Depot.

But the tech data sheet also says that Rustmaster has poor gasoline 
resistance.

Karl




> Is Zynolite still on the market somewhere? I haven't been able
> to find it in California for years, and heard rumors that they
> had been acquired and the brand went away... 

From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Sun Apr 19 20:07:40 2009
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:07:40 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chassis enamel
Message-ID: <cf2.53e05c45.371d32ec@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/19/09 6:43:06 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
cak at dimebank.com writes:

Is  Zynolite still on the market somewhere? I haven't been able
to find it in  California for years, and heard rumors that they
had been acquired and the  brand went away...



They're still listed on the Web; google them and find a retailer.
 
Scotty from Hollyweird
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220814852x1201410738/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26
hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter419NO62)

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 09:39:47 2009
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:39:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
Message-ID: <9FBCF488CCE34F58AFE799FA9DF57505@Waynehouseputer>

Last year I removed, clean, and re-sealed a skylight in my RV that had a
minor leak. There was some wood damage but it appeared confined to just one
of the 25 holes used to fasten the skylight. At the time I just put a larger
screw in that hole and it seemed to hold. This year I find that this screw
has popped loose and that corner of the skylight is not held down flat to
the roof as a result. In retrospect I probably should have used a plug or
wood filler product along with the bigger screw.

 

So now I need to fix it and I don't want to take the whole skylight off
again as I sealed it with eternabond tape after the reinstall, and the other
24 screws seem to be holding just fine. This means I need to fix the hole
with the plastic skylight in place, which is not an issue except it adds
some additional challenges in having to go through the skylight screw hole
to get to the wood hole. There is sealing tape remnants that have proven
difficult to get out of the top of the hole. This tape hinders clear access
to the full diameter of the wood hole. What I'm getting at is it will be a
bit difficult to "dribble" or "pour" a filler product into the hole cleanly
from the top side, so a liquid filler product that had a small tube
applicator to stick into the hole would be good. 

 

I have cleaned the hole out such that it is "clear" inside and I suppose
some sort of wood plug could be driven down into the hole along with liquid
wood filler. I'd have to measure and cut to length the plug as I have no way
of cutting it flush with the roof surface after it is installed.

 

The hole diameter is roughly the size of a number 8-10 screw and about 1.5"
deep. What is the best way to strengthen that hole before sinking another
screw into it? Are there products that can be obtained from the HD or Lowes
for this purpose?

 

I did check into gorilla glue but was told it is not to be used as a filler.


 

Thanks

Wayne 

From drew at DasRogges.com  Mon Apr 20 10:13:27 2009
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:13:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <9FBCF488CCE34F58AFE799FA9DF57505@Waynehouseputer>
References: <9FBCF488CCE34F58AFE799FA9DF57505@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <49EC9F27.3000106@DasRogges.com>

Any time I need to fix a stripped thread in wood I fill the hole with glue some
round wooden toothpicks and glue. Always seems to work just fine. The toothpicks
we get seem to be made from a pretty hard wood. I guess in your case you would
want to use waterproof glue.

Drew

cornerexit wrote:
> Last year I removed, clean, and re-sealed a skylight in my RV that had a
> minor leak. There was some wood damage but it appeared confined to just one
> of the 25 holes used to fasten the skylight. At the time I just put a larger
> screw in that hole and it seemed to hold. This year I find that this screw
> has popped loose and that corner of the skylight is not held down flat to
> the roof as a result. In retrospect I probably should have used a plug or
> wood filler product along with the bigger screw.
>  
> I have cleaned the hole out such that it is "clear" inside and I suppose
> some sort of wood plug could be driven down into the hole along with liquid
> wood filler. I'd have to measure and cut to length the plug as I have no way
> of cutting it flush with the roof surface after it is installed.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wayne 

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Apr 20 10:29:04 2009
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:29:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <49EC9F27.3000106@DasRogges.com>
References: <9FBCF488CCE34F58AFE799FA9DF57505@Waynehouseputer>
	<49EC9F27.3000106@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <49ECA2D0.50500@milleredp.com>

Drew Rogge wrote:
> Any time I need to fix a stripped thread in wood I fill the hole with 
> glue some round wooden toothpicks and glue. 

Sometimes if having the screw center in the same place in the hole is 
critical, two of the flat toothpicks work better so the screw will more 
or less go between them, but yeah, works for me.

John.

From drew at DasRogges.com  Mon Apr 20 10:25:26 2009
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:25:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
In-Reply-To: <49E913FE.2070804@earthlink.net>
References: <49E89473.8030607@DasRogges.com> <49E913FE.2070804@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <49ECA1F6.8030709@DasRogges.com>

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions on finding underground water pipes.
I'll try the probing method and see how that goes. I'll also give water
witching at shot but I don't think I have the right "attitude" for that.

Drew

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Apr 20 10:35:19 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:35:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <49EC9F27.3000106@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <20090420163519785.QZQB8695.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>

> Any time I need to fix a stripped thread in wood I fill the 
> hole with glue some round wooden toothpicks and glue. 

Wooden kitchen matches work too, although they aren't as hard.  I generally
use 3 of them, depending on hole size.

But for cases where the screw never was secure enough, I drill the hole out
to a standard size; and note how deep the drill went to cut off a length of
hardwood dowel.  Coat it with glue and drive it into the hole, then wait for
the glue to dry before drilling a pilot hole and driving in the screw.

Randall

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Apr 20 10:43:46 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:43:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <9FBCF488CCE34F58AFE799FA9DF57505@Waynehouseputer>
References: <9FBCF488CCE34F58AFE799FA9DF57505@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <636E2141516C41C9A2E6DBB0464D70B5@EricJRussellPC>

Would something like "liquid wood" work?
http://www.abatron.com/cms/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationmaintenance.html

Likely any low viscosity epoxy would do the same. Inject it with a syringe & 
needle. Let it cure then drill and install a new screw. Or insert the screw 
before the epoxy cures and let your heirs cuss at you...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 

> Last year I removed, clean, and re-sealed a skylight in my RV that had a
> minor leak. There was some wood damage but it appeared confined to just 
> one
> of the 25 holes used to fasten the skylight. 

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Apr 20 10:50:20 2009
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:50:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
In-Reply-To: <49ECA1F6.8030709@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <1963448588.3697351240246220386.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

If you have access to an open end to the pipe, put a fishline in and hook it up to a signal generator.  They sell electronic generators and detectors therefore.  I know folks have done this, but I have never done it myself, so I can't supply any more detail.

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L   1979 Caterham 7
1993 Suburban  1994 Miata C-package  2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net   
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums   http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier 

----- "Drew Rogge" <drew at DasRogges.com> wrote:

> From: "Drew Rogge" <drew at DasRogges.com>
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:25:26 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Finding underground plastic water pipes.
>
> Thanks to everyone for the suggestions on finding underground water
> pipes.
> I'll try the probing method and see how that goes. I'll also give
> water
> witching at shot but I don't think I have the right "attitude" for
> that.
> 
> Drew
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Mon Apr 20 10:52:31 2009
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
Message-ID: <200904201652.n3KGqVrA009339@moose.dimebank.com>

I've been backing away from these products and going back to my roots
with plastic anchors. There are some that are a continuous extrusion
and can be cut to length...

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Mon Apr 20 11:11:27 2009
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (James F Juhas)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:11:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <20090420163519785.QZQB8695.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>
References: <20090420163519785.QZQB8695.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>
Message-ID: <49ECACBF.9060708@snet.net>

In applications like this, especially when waterproofing is necessary, I 
have been using West Systems Epoxy.  Most marine stores carry it, and 
the product features the ability to blend in fillers to the epoxy to 
suit your application.  It might seem expensive at the outset, but the 
stuff is applicable to all sorts of projects and repairs.  I bought it 
originally for working on a fiberglass car body, and since found loads 
of applications for other projects. 

See http://www.westsystem.com/ss/


Randall wrote:
>> Any time I need to fix a stripped thread in wood I fill the 
>> hole with glue some round wooden toothpicks and glue. 
>>     
>
> Wooden kitchen matches work too, although they aren't as hard.  I generally
> use 3 of them, depending on hole size.
>
> But for cases where the screw never was secure enough, I drill the hole out
> to a standard size; and note how deep the drill went to cut off a length of
> hardwood dowel.  Coat it with glue and drive it into the hole, then wait for
> the glue to dry before drilling a pilot hole and driving in the screw.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as james.f.juhas at snet.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>   


-- 

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of james_f_juhas.vcf]

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 11:28:14 2009
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:28:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding screen door madness
Message-ID: <8132F7E83EEE4C459FE45339E3B8AAB6@Waynehouseputer>

For years and years I fought with the cheap one size fits all screen door on
our 80x36 glass slider. The thing would not stay in adjustment, the screws
would strip out, I had to put one of those metal mesh dog panels on the
bottom of the door just to get some sort of rigidity in the frame, the
"rollers" such that they did not roll worth a darn etc etc etc. The thing
got knocked out of the tracks again today and I have had it. I'm tired of
patching the thing together. 

So what do I do? Go to lowes and buy another one for $50 and another dog
guard for $30 but this one said, "heavy duty" on it. I'm sure it would be
better built than my old one... wrong, same piece of junk build. One size
fits none - 75-81" in height. The screws in the bottom roller panel came
pre-stripped out because the holes were drilled too close to the edge of the
paper thin aluminum, which meant the door could not be adjusted up enough to
come anywhere close to fitting the 80" door frame. I lost it at that point
and threw the damn door across the backyard where it will stay until Monday
when I return it to get my money back.

Whew, thanks for listening to my rant. Now...

Somebody must manufacture sliding screen doors to fit these standard sized
door frames that at least have some robustness to them? Anybody? Seems there
would be a non-custom standard model of higher quality than these
adjustomatics from the box stores? Do builders really put these pieces of
junk in the $400-600K spec houses I see all around our area? There must be
some option between this junk and a custom ordered one?

There must be a higher quality alternative without having to go the custom
build route??

Thanks
Wayne 

 <http://forum.doityourself.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1555669> Reply
With Quote

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif]

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 11:52:41 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:52:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <8172953551960712194@unknownmsgid>
References: <49EC9F27.3000106@DasRogges.com> <8172953551960712194@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904201052s3c9480fal47f38be34db03c45@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> Any time I need to fix a stripped thread in wood I fill the
>> hole with glue some round wooden toothpicks and glue.
>
> Wooden kitchen matches work too, although they aren't as hard. B I
generally
> use 3 of them, depending on hole size.
>
> But for cases where the screw never was secure enough, I drill the hole out
> to a standard size; and note how deep the drill went to cut off a length of
> hardwood dowel. B Coat it with glue and drive it into the hole, then wait
for
> the glue to dry before drilling a pilot hole and driving in the screw.
>

I think I'd try a "Mr Grip".  It's perferated metal dohicky that you
stick in the hole, instead of a plug or toothpicks and glue.  Cheap.
Works great.  Lasts forever.  For inexplicable reasons, not available
from any of the Borg "hardware" stores.  My local Ace has them,
though.  cost about 2 bucks for a dozen.

--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Apr 20 11:51:12 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:51:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <49ECACBF.9060708@snet.net>
References: <20090420163519785.QZQB8695.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>
	<49ECACBF.9060708@snet.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090420134424.01cdbbf0@cox.net>

At 01:11 PM 4/20/2009, you wrote:

 >In applications like this, especially when waterproofing is necessary, I
 >have been using West Systems Epoxy.....

I'll second the tooth pick, and the West Systems Epoxy.

I used West System to seal the wood in my Morgan when I restored her back in
88-92.  Where the wood was rotted, I made a damn out of masking tape, and
used West's filler to thicken the epoxy and build up the wood.   Worked like a
charm.

The only problem with West System is the stuff isn't cheap.  The last time I
bought some was almost 20 yrs ago.  Back then a gal of each the hardener and
epoxy was something like $50.  I know it's gone up since then.  They also sell
pumps that pre measure the stuff 5 to 1.  So 1 pump on each can comes out
correctly instead of having to try and measure the stuff.


For stripped screws, I've always just used a couple of tooth picks and some
Elmer's white glue.  A cabinet maker friend of mine has been using it for many
many years.  It's a lot cheaper than West.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Apr 20 12:17:10 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:17:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40904201052s3c9480fal47f38be34db03c45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EC9F27.3000106@DasRogges.com> <8172953551960712194@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40904201052s3c9480fal47f38be34db03c45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D44DE4A30CB64543AD768E83A6418A36@jdnet.deere.com>

> I think I'd try a "Mr Grip".  It's perferated metal dohicky that you
> stick in the hole, 

I've tried those, didn't work that well for me.  YMMV of course.  

Plus of course I have an assortment of kitchen matches/dowels & glue on
hand; don't have to drive to Ace <G>

Randall

From srcypher at mac.com  Mon Apr 20 16:25:40 2009
From: srcypher at mac.com (Scott Cypher)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:25:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 94
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21379.1240245534.3542.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.21379.1240245534.3542.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <4D92ACD0-E3D7-4043-BDFF-A9E391E30C3A@mac.com>

I have the hydraulic pump version of the floor dollies (http:// 
www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94682)

as well 2 sets of the the Merrick dollies (http:// 
www.carolinaclassictrucks.com/Merrick_Machine.html)

I like the merricks' best, cheap, easy to use.  No cross bar to get  
in the way of jacking up just high enough to slide under the wheel.   
Both types roll exceptionally well. Too well, as a section of my  
workshop is on an incline; I would almost want a brake sometimes.

I would concur with the other' inspect the casters; I suspect you  
will find some that roll easier than others.  But the caster  
replacement kit indicated is pricey; It looks like you have to drill  
the plates for the stud, vs. just find a comparable plate topped caster.


Thanks

-Scott Cypher

-----------------------------------------------------
Today's Topics:

    1. Vehicle dollies (John Mitchell
    4. Re: Vehicle dollies (Randall)

-----------------------------------------------------

From darmstrong at nexicom.net  Tue Apr 21 15:39:54 2009
From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:39:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk]  Wood filler for stripped out screw hole
Message-ID: <200904212139.n3LLdr5V013635@smtp.nexicom.net>

I purchased a neat little tapered bore at Lee Valley Tools here in Canada
called the Plugger.  They also sell to the US through the internet.  It is
similar to a countersink, but with the same taper as that created with a
pencil sharpener.  I found an old multi-diameter pencil sharpener at a yard
sale & keep a couple different diameters of wood dowels for this purpose.

They also suggest using it for making wood grafts on trees.

The link is: 

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32280&cat=1,180,42240,53317

Doug Armstrong




-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of cornerexit
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:40 AM
To: 'Shop Talk'
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood filler for stripped out screw hole

Last year I removed, clean, and re-sealed a skylight in my RV that had a
minor leak. There was some wood damage but it appeared confined to just one
of the 25 holes used to fasten the skylight. At the time I just put a larger
screw in that hole and it seemed to hold. This year I find that this screw
has popped loose and that corner of the skylight is not held down flat to
the roof as a result. In retrospect I probably should have used a plug or
wood filler product along with the bigger screw.

 

So now I need to fix it and I don't want to take the whole skylight off
again as I sealed it with eternabond tape after the reinstall, and the other
24 screws seem to be holding just fine. This means I need to fix the hole
with the plastic skylight in place, which is not an issue except it adds
some additional challenges in having to go through the skylight screw hole
to get to the wood hole. There is sealing tape remnants that have proven
difficult to get out of the top of the hole. This tape hinders clear access
to the full diameter of the wood hole. What I'm getting at is it will be a
bit difficult to "dribble" or "pour" a filler product into the hole cleanly
from the top side, so a liquid filler product that had a small tube
applicator to stick into the hole would be good. 

 

I have cleaned the hole out such that it is "clear" inside and I suppose
some sort of wood plug could be driven down into the hole along with liquid
wood filler. I'd have to measure and cut to length the plug as I have no way
of cutting it flush with the roof surface after it is installed.

 

The hole diameter is roughly the size of a number 8-10 screw and about 1.5"
deep. What is the best way to strengthen that hole before sinking another
screw into it? Are there products that can be obtained from the HD or Lowes
for this purpose?

 

I did check into gorilla glue but was told it is not to be used as a filler.


 

Thanks

Wayne 
You are subscribed as darmstrong at nexicom.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Tue Apr 21 20:25:44 2009
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:25:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Floor dollies
Message-ID: <0FCEB2DF3ABE44FB827D98203B1BB88B@OFFICEPC>

Another thought: if you don't move things around that often you could just
live with the crappy rolling wheels on the one you have and don't push the
car around.  When you need to move a vehicle that is on the dollies just
hook up a come-along between one of the dollies and an anchor in the wall in
the direction you wish to go.

Mark.

From jmitch at snet.net  Tue Apr 21 21:03:23 2009
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:03:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Floor dollies
In-Reply-To: <0FCEB2DF3ABE44FB827D98203B1BB88B@OFFICEPC>
References: <0FCEB2DF3ABE44FB827D98203B1BB88B@OFFICEPC>
Message-ID: <49EE88FB.5050704@snet.net>

   Well, I bit the bullet and bought a set of the Go-jak 5000 dollies.  
I just tried them and the difference is unbelievable.  I can now move 
the car in any direction myself and if your not careful, it can actually 
get away from you.  I really have to watch the lally columns now when 
moving.  The casters are so much smoother and the plastic wheels seem to 
move much better over the concrete.  There expensive, but in my case 
worth it.     Thanks for everyones help.  John Mitchell

Mark Miller wrote:
> Another thought: if you don't move things around that often you could just
> live with the crappy rolling wheels on the one you have and don't push the
> car around.  When you need to move a vehicle that is on the dollies just
> hook up a come-along between one of the dollies and an anchor in the wall in
> the direction you wish to go.

From gwishon at nd.edu  Fri Apr 24 09:17:11 2009
From: gwishon at nd.edu (Gordon Wishon)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:17:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cordless Impact Wrenches
Message-ID: <08F602C5D1DACB4FBFDBFB6814181DB7E631AE4D90@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>

I'm seeking recommendations for a medium duty cordless impact wrench.  It'll
be mostly for home and some track use, principally for changing tires and
occasional chassis and exhaust work.

I've seen the usual suspects from DeWalt, Mikwaukee, and Makita in 18V and 24V
=" sizes, as well as the smaller and lighter 3/8" models.

What sort of things should I be looking for?  My guess is that I'll need to
trade off characteristics such as weight, torque, and battery life.  Anything
else?

Gordon

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Apr 24 12:25:31 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:25:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial
Message-ID: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL>

As a long-time Harbor Freight detractor (but also a customer), I was a little
hesitant to buy a blast cabinet there.  But... the 36" floor-model cabinet is
currently on sale for $220, and after a 20% coupon, it was only $176.

Well, having needed a cabinet for 30+ years, I finally gave up on ever
actually buying the 48" TIP Tools one ($1,000 + freight) and decided to get
the HF one for now - another 30 year wait and I'll be 90.

I just took lunch time off and assembled it.  It's really well made, heavy
steel (18-gauge, plenty adequate for the application), everything fits
beautifully, and I can't wait to finish making a mobile base and a "hookah"
filter, and start blasting.

Down side ?  Gun looks OK, but may not be the best - sort of a consumable
anyway.  No foot pedal, no blow-off hose included, thick molded plastic door
(which may not actually be a bad thing ?).

Every one of those issues is readily remedied.  It's very nice and not that
much more than I'd have spent to make a plywood one (which I would have made
much bigger because I could, and then it would have taken up more of the
garage).

Anyone needing anything from Harbor Freight, here are two links to different
20%-off coupons that worked for me yesterday (she rang my order as two
separate purchases).  These were the best I found Googling - the better ones
(30% and 45%) are old and expired.

http://www.teamcny.com/jeep/images/forum/20peroffharborfreighcoupon.jpg

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/common/displayCoupon.do?week=1509&campaig
n=RetailD&page=coupon1.html&single=true&r=4495_15489&cust=78074039217&keycode
=0000

Karl

PS - they have gallons of Evapo-Rust in the store for $19.95.

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Apr 24 13:07:02 2009
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:07:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial
In-Reply-To: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL>
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL>
Message-ID: <49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net>

I have it's little brother,
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42202
which I got several years ago for about half the list price.  Other than 
being somewhat limited in what I can jam into it, it works fine.  I use 
mostly glass beads in it.   I upgraded to a slightly better gun with 
ceramic nozzles and added a magnetic light on the outside of the cabinet 
and it works fine.  I also added a regulator/water separator on the air 
inlet, and I have my old shop vac hooked up to the vent to keep the dust 
down.  It'll eventually kill the vacuum, but it's a 30 year old 
Craftsman, so I have my money's worth out of it.


Karl Vacek wrote:
> As a long-time Harbor Freight detractor (but also a customer), I was a little
> hesitant to buy a blast cabinet there.  But... the 36" floor-model cabinet is
> currently on sale for $220, and after a 20% coupon, it was only $176.
>
> Well, having needed a cabinet for 30+ years, I finally gave up on ever
> actually buying the 48" TIP Tools one ($1,000 + freight) and decided to get
> the HF one for now - another 30 year wait and I'll be 90.
>
> I just took lunch time off and assembled it.  It's really well made, heavy
> steel (18-gauge, plenty adequate for the application), everything fits
> beautifully, and I can't wait to finish making a mobile base and a "hookah"
> filter, and start blasting.
>
> Down side ?  Gun looks OK, but may not be the best - sort of a consumable
> anyway.  No foot pedal, no blow-off hose included, thick molded plastic door
> (which may not actually be a bad thing ?).
>
> Every one of those issues is readily remedied.  It's very nice and not that
> much more than I'd have spent to make a plywood one (which I would have made
> much bigger because I could, and then it would have taken up more of the
> garage).
>
> Anyone needing anything from Harbor Freight, here are two links to different
> 20%-off coupons that worked for me yesterday (she rang my order as two
> separate purchases).  These were the best I found Googling - the better ones
> (30% and 45%) are old and expired.
>
> http://www.teamcny.com/jeep/images/forum/20peroffharborfreighcoupon.jpg
>
> http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/common/displayCoupon.do?week=1509&campaig
> n=RetailD&page=coupon1.html&single=true&r=4495_15489&cust=78074039217&keycode
> =0000
>
> Karl
>
> PS - they have gallons of Evapo-Rust in the store for $19.95.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Apr 24 13:18:15 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:18:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL>
	<49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B1A94F84610D4C58AE48625FF893F501@KARL>

That's a point - no regulator or water separator included on this model 
either.  But it does have a 24" fluorescent light mounted in its own housing 
on top of the cabinet, sealed off with glass (even protective plastic sheets 
installed for the light and window, and a few spares).  Even the light 
switch on the outside of the cabinet has a membrane over it to keep grit 
out.

Also - someone posted to advise me to caulk the seams as he had to do with 
his TIP cabinet.  I forgot to mention that -- besides an excellent paint 
(powder coat?) finish, no sharp edges, etc., they beautifully silicone 
caulked every seam - everything that might leak.  They properly pre-applied 
all the sealing foam strips on the mating surfaces you have to assemble (and 
might want to take apart again some day) - no smashed roll of junk foam that 
you'd need to replace with decent stuff - everything is already done, and 
really nice.

I feel even better about not having the TIP cabinet now.

It pains me to say this, because I'm a Made in USA kind of guy - but this is 
a really nice product.

Karl





>I have it's little brother,
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42202
> which I got several years ago for about half the list price.  Other than 
> being somewhat limited in what I can jam into it, it works fine.  I use 
> mostly glass beads in it.   I upgraded to a slightly better gun with 
> ceramic nozzles and added a magnetic light on the outside of the cabinet 
> and it works fine.  I also added a regulator/water separator on the air 
> inlet, and I have my old shop vac hooked up to the vent to keep the dust 
> down.  It'll eventually kill the vacuum, but it's a 30 year old Craftsman, 
> so I have my money's worth out of it.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Apr 24 13:30:26 2009
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:30:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial
In-Reply-To: <49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net>
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL>
	<49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20090424152820.01ca7a40@cox.net>

At 03:07 PM 4/24/2009, David C. wrote:

 >I have it's little brother,
 >http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42202
 >which I got several years ago for about half the list price.....

 >I also added a regulator/water separator on the air inlet, and I have my old
 >shop vac hooked up to the vent to keep the dust down.  It'll 
eventually kill the
 >vacuum, but it's a 30 year old Craftsman, so I have my money's 
worth out of it.

David, Karl, et al.

If you put a couple of inches of water in the bottom of the shop vac, and make
sure the deflector is pointing down, you'll save the bearings on the vac. and
greatly extend its live.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Apr 24 15:34:42 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:34:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial
In-Reply-To: <B1A94F84610D4C58AE48625FF893F501@KARL>
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL><49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net>
	<B1A94F84610D4C58AE48625FF893F501@KARL>
Message-ID: <7B919923014442C8A1A7B2652E8DD82C@jdnet.deere.com>

Karl, is this the one you got?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93608

This looked like an interesting accessory:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94275

-- Randall 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Apr 24 16:46:07 2009
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:46:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oneida-air cyclone (was: Harbor Freight testimonial)
In-Reply-To: <7B919923014442C8A1A7B2652E8DD82C@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL><49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net><B1A94F84610D4C58AE48625FF893F501@KARL>
	<7B919923014442C8A1A7B2652E8DD82C@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <F96B5241686F48D2A04B592FEE02019F@EricJRussellPC>

Anybody tried this: 
http://www.dustdeputy.com/ 

It is even touted as American made...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> This looked like an interesting accessory:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94275
> 
> -- Randall 

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Fri Apr 24 20:38:52 2009
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:38:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL><49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net>
	<B1A94F84610D4C58AE48625FF893F501@KARL>
Message-ID: <BB0FFCA4D8F34B4EAA7A88B791B0B6EE@Dell9200>

Nice review Karl, which one at HF is it/

Mark
Nashville
http://www.arrestmered.com
58 "Bugeye"
66 TR4A


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial


That's a point - no regulator or water separator included on this model
either.  But it does have a 24" fluorescent light mounted in its own housing
on top of the cabinet, sealed off with glass (even protective plastic sheets
installed for the light and window, and a few spares).  Even the light
switch on the outside of the cabinet has a membrane over it to keep grit
out.

Also - someone posted to advise me to caulk the seams as he had to do with
his TIP cabinet.  I forgot to mention that -- besides an excellent paint
(powder coat?) finish, no sharp edges, etc., they beautifully silicone
caulked every seam - everything that might leak.  They properly pre-applied
all the sealing foam strips on the mating surfaces you have to assemble (and
might want to take apart again some day) - no smashed roll of junk foam that
you'd need to replace with decent stuff - everything is already done, and
really nice.

I feel even better about not having the TIP cabinet now.

It pains me to say this, because I'm a Made in USA kind of guy - but this is
a really nice product.

Karl





>I have it's little brother,
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42202
> which I got several years ago for about half the list price.  Other than
> being somewhat limited in what I can jam into it, it works fine.  I use
> mostly glass beads in it.   I upgraded to a slightly better gun with
> ceramic nozzles and added a magnetic light on the outside of the cabinet
> and it works fine.  I also added a regulator/water separator on the air
> inlet, and I have my old shop vac hooked up to the vent to keep the dust
> down.  It'll eventually kill the vacuum, but it's a 30 year old Craftsman,
> so I have my money's worth out of it.
You are subscribed as mark at nashvilletn.org

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Apr 24 20:49:59 2009
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:49:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight testimonial
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL><49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net><B1A94F84610D4C58AE48625FF893F501@KARL>
	<BB0FFCA4D8F34B4EAA7A88B791B0B6EE@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <0E775E8F91F94AC98350A6E183AB5A05@KARL>

Model 93608
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93608 


> Nice review Karl, which one at HF is it/
> 
> Mark
> Nashville
> http://www.arrestmered.com
> 58 "Bugeye"
> 66 TR4A

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 22:26:42 2009
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:26:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oneida-air cyclone (was: Harbor Freight testimonial)
In-Reply-To: <F96B5241686F48D2A04B592FEE02019F@EricJRussellPC>
References: <4886BB1DB6004EF3AD17429A27527732@KARL>
	<49F20DD6.2080104@verizon.net> <B1A94F84610D4C58AE48625FF893F501@KARL>
	<7B919923014442C8A1A7B2652E8DD82C@jdnet.deere.com>
	<F96B5241686F48D2A04B592FEE02019F@EricJRussellPC>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40904242126o3432de6en45b51467a43d02e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net> wrote:
> Anybody tried this: http://www.dustdeputy.com/
> It is even touted as American made...
>

I have no experience with this product.  But I'll say something about
dust collection generally.  Vacuum-cleaner based solutions don't work
very well.  they can be okay (and really, just okay) in something like
a blast cabinet.  Real dust collectors work much better.  the
difference is one of intent.  Vacuum cleaners move small volumes of
air, at large suction.  that means they're good at picking up heavy
things, or things that ground into the carpet.  Dust collectors, on
the other hand, move large volumes of air, at pretty low suction.  So,
they don't really do a good job of picking up heavy things, like nuts
bolts, or things ground into the carpet; however, they do a fantastic
job of moving lots of air, and the dust that's suspended in the air.

The rule of thumb for dust collecting in a blast cabinet is about 6 or
8 air changes a minute.  so a 3' cube cabinet is (27 cu ft * 6-8
change/min = 162-216 cu ft/min).  That's right at limit of what a big
shop vac can do.  The actual amount of air you need depends on what
you're cleaning, what abrasive your using, your tolerance for not
being able to see, etc.

Oh, and when adding dust collection to a cabinet, don't forget to plan
for make up air.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at bradakis.com  Sun Apr 26 23:00:22 2009
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:00:22 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Team.Net spring cleaning
Message-ID: <20090427050022.BC8012E0BC@bradakis.com>

Kind of a cool and rainy Easter here in Salt Lake, no garage work but
spending some time with the computers.  I'm shuffling some stuff around,
updating some software and so on, will be working at it for a while.
So if you experience an hour or two of no connection with Team.Net don't
worry about it too much, it is just me working on stuff.

For those who are not aware, this list and all the others [ see
http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo ] are run by some grumpy old
curmudgeon using a rag-tag batch of hardware set up in my basement
office.  I didn't run an official spring fund drive this year which
helps to defray my out of pocket expenses to keep it all going, but
if you have a dollar or two available to support the whole thing,
see http://www.team.net/donate.html

Thanks,
mjb.

From lspector at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 07:33:45 2009
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:33:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cordless Impact Wrenches
In-Reply-To: <08F602C5D1DACB4FBFDBFB6814181DB7E631AE4D90@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
References: <08F602C5D1DACB4FBFDBFB6814181DB7E631AE4D90@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
Message-ID: <167503c10904270633v3f4a2884x92912bc95de425e7@mail.gmail.com>

I highly recommend the Milwaukee 18V. I've had one for ~5 years now,
and it still works great. In fact I just replaced the batteries with
the newer lithium ion packs, and it's better than new!

The one I have is listed here:
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=9079-22&CategoryNam
e=SC%3a+Impact+Wrenches

It's big and heavy- but it's never failed to remove a lug nut. Mine's
also marked Made in USA- not sure if they still are.

-Larry

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Gordon Wishon <gwishon at nd.edu> wrote:
> I'm seeking recommendations for a medium duty cordless impact wrench.
 It'll
> be mostly for home and some track use, principally for changing tires and
> occasional chassis and exhaust work.
>
> I've seen the usual suspects from DeWalt, Mikwaukee, and Makita in 18V and
24V
> =" sizes, as well as the smaller and lighter 3/8" models.
>
> What sort of things should I be looking for?  My guess is that I'll need to
> trade off characteristics such as weight, torque, and battery life.
 Anything
> else?
>
> Gordon

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Apr 27 09:04:40 2009
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:04:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cordless Impact Wrenches
In-Reply-To: <167503c10904270633v3f4a2884x92912bc95de425e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <08F602C5D1DACB4FBFDBFB6814181DB7E631AE4D90@ICE-MBX-1.ice.nd.edu>
	<167503c10904270633v3f4a2884x92912bc95de425e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904271101370.19822@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Larry Spector wrote:
> I highly recommend the Milwaukee 18V. I've had one for ~5 years now,
> and it still works great. In fact I just replaced the batteries with
> the newer lithium ion packs, and it's better than new!
>
> The one I have is listed here:
> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=9079-22&CategoryNam
> e=SC%3a+Impact+Wrenches
>
> It's big and heavy- but it's never failed to remove a lug nut. Mine's
> also marked Made in USA- not sure if they still are.

I also have the Milwaukee 18v, going on 7 years?  I'm still using the 
NiCAD batteries, but have been through a few sets (I also have other 
Milwaukee cordless stuff).  One of the most used / best tools I've ever 
bought.

I've a fan of the impact wrench for sure.  Not a huge fan of the battery 
life (like, how long they work before you need to throw away / replace the 
pack, not how they work with a charge in good condition), but I also don't 
know if anything else is really better.

Mark

From halfnights at shaw.ca  Mon Apr 27 13:11:23 2009
From: halfnights at shaw.ca (Art Halfnights)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:11:23 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Phase converters???
Message-ID: <001a01c9c76b$f478b7f0$fe2d4546@home>

Good Day Group   I am interested in a phase converter or phase shifter.  A
Capacitor type to run a 2 to 3 hp 3phase motor on 240 single phase.  They come
in a metal box about 8`x8` 3-4 hundred dollars??  I can't find a supplier here
in Canada.  only large units Anyone have one or infor?  Much appreciated  Art
Halfnights Maple Ridge B.C. Canada

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Apr 27 13:49:37 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:49:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Phase converters???
In-Reply-To: <001a01c9c76b$f478b7f0$fe2d4546@home>
Message-ID: <20090427194937524.JCMO9976@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>

> Good Day Group   I am interested in a phase converter or 
> phase shifter.  A
> Capacitor type to run a 2 to 3 hp 3phase motor on 240 single 
> phase.  They come in a metal box about 8`x8` 3-4 hundred 
> dollars??  

Art, I don't have all the links handy, but there should be lots of info on
the web about building your own.  There are several approaches; one way is
to find a surplus 3-phase motor that is similar or slightly larger than the
one you intend to power and use it as a "rotary transformer".  Here's one
page with the basics:
http://www.nojolt.com/how-to-build-a-rotary-phase-converter.shtml

A simple capacitive type "converter" isn't going to work as well; and needs
to be 'tuned' to the load, which is problematic for most "home shop" loads.
Still adequate for some uses though; primarily cases where the load motor
can be started under no load and you don't need full power from it (like a
lathe or mill).

But $300-$400 (even Canadian) should get you a full-blown 2-3hp VFD; eg,
http://tinyurl.com/cav4xz

Randall

From shiples at comcast.net  Mon Apr 27 14:39:47 2009
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:39:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Phase converters???
In-Reply-To: <20090427194937524.JCMO9976@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com>
References: <001a01c9c76b$f478b7f0$fe2d4546@home>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090427133812.03c356f0@mail.comcast.net>

Check Ebay....
At 12:49 PM 4/27/2009 -0700, Randall wrote:
> > Good Day Group   I am interested in a phase converter or
> > phase shifter.  A
> > Capacitor type to run a 2 to 3 hp 3phase motor on 240 single
> > phase.  They come in a metal box about 8`x8` 3-4 hundred
> > dollars??
>
>Art, I don't have all the links handy, but there should be lots of info on
>the web about building your own.  There are several approaches; one way is
>to find a surplus 3-phase motor that is similar or slightly larger than the
>one you intend to power and use it as a "rotary transformer".  Here's one
>page with the basics:
>http://www.nojolt.com/how-to-build-a-rotary-phase-converter.shtml
>
>A simple capacitive type "converter" isn't going to work as well; and needs
>to be 'tuned' to the load, which is problematic for most "home shop" loads.
>Still adequate for some uses though; primarily cases where the load motor
>can be started under no load and you don't need full power from it (like a
>lathe or mill).
>
>But $300-$400 (even Canadian) should get you a full-blown 2-3hp VFD; eg,
>http://tinyurl.com/cav4xz
>
>Randall

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 15:16:13 2009
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:16:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Phase converters???
In-Reply-To: <001a01c9c76b$f478b7f0$fe2d4546@home>
References: <001a01c9c76b$f478b7f0$fe2d4546@home>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0904271416m2ca0711ch4b6a30df5abbc831@mail.gmail.com>

I have one on the house to run the well pump.  SIngle phase 240, 60HZ
to three phase.  Cost about $200US, made by ITT, sold by Gould pumps.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Art Halfnights <halfnights at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Good Day Group   I am interested in a phase converter or phase shifter.  A
> Capacitor type to run a 2 to 3 hp 3phase motor on 240 single phase.  They
come
> in a metal box about 8`x8` 3-4 hundred dollars??  I can't find a supplier
here
> in Canada.  only large units Anyone have one or infor?  Much appreciated
 Art
> Halfnights Maple Ridge B.C. Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



--
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Apr 29 09:52:37 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:52:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
Message-ID: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>

I have a Razor heater in the garage and the small fan motor that blows air
over the heat exchanger has gone walk-about. It is a 115 volt 1550 RPM motor
that draws 1.2 amps, four 1/8 inch mounting screws 2 inches apart - a square -
on the drive face for mounting and a 3/16 inch diameter by 3 1/2 inch long
shaft for the fan blade.

I can provide all of the A. O. Smith motor plate details if that would help.

A quick check at Surplus Center and McMaster did not come close to what I
needed.

Any thoughts on where I should look next? A recommendation for a 'small
electric motor vendor' on the web?

Thanks,
Arvid

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Apr 29 11:48:18 2009
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:48:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
In-Reply-To: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
References: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <49F892E2.9020707@xxiii.com>

Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I have a Razor heater in the garage and the small fan motor that blows air
> over the heat exchanger has gone walk-about. It is a 115 volt 1550 RPM motor
> that draws 1.2 amps, four 1/8 inch mounting screws 2 inches apart - a square -

Is it like a little "boxer" fan in computers and such?  DigiKey has all 
kinds of those:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1179729

-Wayne

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Apr 29 14:23:33 2009
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:23:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
References: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
	<49F892E2.9020707@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <69DA070FEF0740BA850F0D799139EB4F@behavioral.com>

This is looks more like the old fashioned 12 volt heater motor - not like a 
muffin or boxer fan.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...


> Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
>> I have a Razor heater in the garage and the small fan motor that blows 
>> air
>> over the heat exchanger has gone walk-about. It is a 115 volt 1550 RPM 
>> motor
>> that draws 1.2 amps, four 1/8 inch mounting screws 2 inches apart - a 
>> square -
>
> Is it like a little "boxer" fan in computers and such?  DigiKey has all 
> kinds of those:
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1179729
>
> -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as arvidj at visi.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 29 14:30:29 2009
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
In-Reply-To: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
References: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <501138.20108.qm@web57006.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Tried grainger.com?

A quick peek shows they have a few 'fan motor' listed.
Take a peek and
see if it will work. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



-----
Original Message ----
From: Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com>
To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:52:37 AM
Subject:
[Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...

I have a Razor heater in the
garage and the small fan motor that blows air
over the heat exchanger has gone
walk-about. It is a 115 volt 1550 RPM motor
that draws 1.2 amps, four 1/8 inch
mounting screws 2 inches apart - a square -
on the drive face for mounting and
a 3/16 inch diameter by 3 1/2 inch long
shaft for the fan blade.

I can
provide all of the A. O. Smith motor plate details if that would help.

A
quick check at Surplus Center and McMaster did not come close to what I
needed.

Any thoughts on where I should look next? A recommendation for a
'small
electric motor vendor' on the web?

Thanks,
Arvid
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html

You are subscribed as battmain at yahoo.com
Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Apr 29 14:39:33 2009
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:39:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
In-Reply-To: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
References: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <CE04FE919B7F4EFC80C9CADC32B86721@jdnet.deere.com>

You might try poking around on the Grainger web site.  They seem to have a
lot of small HVAC replacement motors listed, including some by A.O. Smith.
http://www.grainger.com

My guess is that it's going to be difficult to find an exact replacement for
what sounds like a purpose-made motor.  You'll probably need to do some
creative adaptation.  A higher rated motor might be a good idea anyway.

Another thought might be to contact the manufacturer of your heater.

-- Randall 

From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Wed Apr 29 14:42:25 2009
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:42:25 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
Message-ID: <d5c.3ac336ab.372a15b1@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/09 8:53:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  arvid
j at visi.com writes:

I have a  Razor heater in the garage and the small fan motor that blows air
over the  heat exchanger has gone walk-about. It is a 115 volt 1550 RPM 
motor
that  draws 1.2 amps, four 1/8 inch mounting screws 2 inches apart - a 
square  -
on the drive face for mounting and a 3/16 inch diameter by 3 1/2 inch  long
shaft for the fan blade.

I can provide all of the A. O. Smith  motor plate details if that would 
help.

A quick check at Surplus Center  and McMaster did not come close to what I
needed.

Any thoughts on  where I should look next? A recommendation for a 'small
electric motor  vendor' on the web?

Thanks
Arvid



Have you tried a Toro blower and motor; they're so potent that they're  
being used for small superchargers.
**************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and 
Desktops!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220631276x1201390200/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.double
click.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv)

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Wed Apr 29 19:33:41 2009
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:33:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
In-Reply-To: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
References: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <20090430013341.GA40776@sackheads.org>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:52:37AM -0500, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I have a Razor heater in the garage and the small fan motor that blows air
> over the heat exchanger has gone walk-about. It is a 115 volt 1550 RPM motor
> that draws 1.2 amps, four 1/8 inch mounting screws 2 inches apart - a square -
> on the drive face for mounting and a 3/16 inch diameter by 3 1/2 inch long
> shaft for the fan blade.
> 
> I can provide all of the A. O. Smith motor plate details if that would help.
> 

Have you checked A. O. Smith's catalog?

http://www.aosmithmotors.com

Jimmie

From burdickm at mindspring.com  Thu Apr 30 05:18:53 2009
From: burdickm at mindspring.com (Michael Burdick)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:18:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for a small fan motor ...
In-Reply-To: <20090430013341.GA40776@sackheads.org>
References: <2DEE2B2A68D549019A0B9A9C5DEDF8CE@behavioral.com>
	<20090430013341.GA40776@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <1241090333.32525.9.camel@Ladybird>

Try Dreisilker Electric Motors @ http://www.dreisilker.com (main site)
or http://www.emotorstore.com (catalog, linked from the main site)

They have a pretty good online catalog.  I've been able to find
replacement motors for several applications there.

Good luck,
Mike


On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:52:37AM -0500, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I have a Razor heater in the garage and the small fan motor that blows air
> over the heat exchanger has gone walk-about. It is a 115 volt 1550 RPM motor
> that draws 1.2 amps, four 1/8 inch mounting screws 2 inches apart - a square -
> on the drive face for mounting and a 3/16 inch diameter by 3 1/2 inch long
> shaft for the fan blade.
> 
> I can provide all of the A. O. Smith motor plate details if that would help.