From lspector at gmail.com  Mon Sep  1 06:51:12 2008
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 08:51:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809010014220.23476@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809010014220.23476@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <167503c10809010551o3883393bkdda42d862cc8475e@mail.gmail.com>

I rented a havahart trap when I had one in the attic. Baited it with
peanut butter. It took a couple of days before the (admittedly
traumatized) baby squirrel went for it. I had already closed up the
access point, so it didn't have anyplace else to go and it's family
was outside! What was odd was that the rest of the family stayed right
outside on the roof and whined, until I caught it and released it
nearby.

-Larry

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> What're my options for getting rid of a squirrel in the basement?
>
> Dead or alive.  Easy is better than not easy.
>
> I don't want to shoot a shotgun in the house.
>
> Mark

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Sep  1 06:59:09 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 08:59:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
In-Reply-To: <167503c10809010551o3883393bkdda42d862cc8475e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809010014220.23476@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<167503c10809010551o3883393bkdda42d862cc8475e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48BBE71D.7090607@xxiii.com>

Larry Spector wrote:
> I rented a havahart trap when I had one in the attic. Baited it with
> peanut butter. It took a couple of days before the (admittedly

Harbor Freight sells traps virtually identical with those.  You local 
animal control office may have loaners, too.

   -Wayne

From ericm at lne.com  Mon Sep  1 08:47:11 2008
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 07:47:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
In-Reply-To: <167503c10809010551o3883393bkdda42d862cc8475e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809010014220.23476@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<167503c10809010551o3883393bkdda42d862cc8475e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080901144711.GG20370@slack.lne.com>

When I trapped small rodents for wildlife studies, peanut
butter was the bait of choice.  Just about every small mammal likes it.

If the squirrel's entry point is still open you can try chasing it
around the basement to encourage it to leave that way, then close up
the hole so it can't get back in.


If you are live trapping don't forget to leave some
cotton or other fluffy nesting material in the trap so the critter
can stay warm overnight.


Eric

From jdrush at enter.net  Mon Sep  1 09:05:20 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:05:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <48BC04B0.30707@enter.net>

I'm not a wood engineer, but I have one on speed dial. Wood strength 
depends on tree variety harvested, growing conditions and moisture 
content. Most engineered wood structures have heavy factors of safety 
because of the wide variability.

Jon

john niolon wrote:
> I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ??? looked around 
> on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but nothing 
> on a common pine 2x10...
> 
> I'm sure grade enters into the formula and percent of water and greeness.. 
> (hey !!  I'm politically correct...I'm talking greenness)   but I wonder how 
> much stronger (resistance to breaking across the wide face when loaded) a 
> 2x10 is compared to a 2x12...  ???
> 
> anyone hazard a guess

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Sep  1 10:05:39 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:05:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
In-Reply-To: <20080901144711.GG20370@slack.lne.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809010014220.23476@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<167503c10809010551o3883393bkdda42d862cc8475e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080901144711.GG20370@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809011203020.16368@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Eric Murray wrote:
> When I trapped small rodents for wildlife studies, peanut
> butter was the bait of choice.  Just about every small mammal likes it.

Someone else mentioned this too...  I'll try it.

> If the squirrel's entry point is still open you can try chasing it 
> around the basement to encourage it to leave that way, then close up the 
> hole so it can't get back in.

This is another mystery that I don't know the answer to...  I don't live 
in the basement or anything, but I can't figure out how it'd have gotten 
in.  There really aren't any openings that I know about.

Perhaps came in the attic and shimmied down between the chimney and the 
wall?  No clue.

> If you are live trapping don't forget to leave some cotton or other 
> fluffy nesting material in the trap so the critter can stay warm 
> overnight.

So am I a huge jerk if I don't particularly care about live trapping? 
Aren't there like 9 billion squirrels?

Mark

From jdrush at enter.net  Mon Sep  1 10:11:48 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:11:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <200808311602.m7VG2ZEs024068@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200808311602.m7VG2ZEs024068@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <48BC1444.1040205@enter.net>

They've got it. If this link doesn't work search the site for Tuff1 
ratchets.
<http://www.skhandtool.com/Default.aspx?fusemode=10&pid=4501>
Not cheap, $119 list price for the pair.

Jon


Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
> I've got a FACOM flex head ratchet and really like it - but I'm
> intrigued by the idea of the SK Roto design with the FACOM 
> ratchet mechanism. All the SK Roto handles that I can find on
> the web are 36-tooth, which doesn't sound like the FACOM mechanism...
> where can I (still) find this combination?

From jdrush at enter.net  Mon Sep  1 10:29:02 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:29:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <48BC1444.1040205@enter.net>
References: <200808311602.m7VG2ZEs024068@moose.dimebank.com>
	<48BC1444.1040205@enter.net>
Message-ID: <48BC184E.9040508@enter.net>

Oops sent you the wrong link, this one has the Roto.
http://www.skhandtool.com/Default.aspx?fusemode=10&pid=40775
even though it say 1/4, I reached it through the 3/8 product tree, its 
worth asking . . .

Jon

Rush wrote:
> They've got it. If this link doesn't work search the site for Tuff1 
> ratchets.
> <http://www.skhandtool.com/Default.aspx?fusemode=10&pid=4501>
> Not cheap, $119 list price for the pair.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
>> I've got a FACOM flex head ratchet and really like it - but I'm
>> intrigued by the idea of the SK Roto design with the FACOM 
>> ratchet mechanism. All the SK Roto handles that I can find on
>> the web are 36-tooth, which doesn't sound like the FACOM mechanism...
>> where can I (still) find this combination?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as jdrush at enter.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Sep  1 12:41:29 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 18:41:29 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
Message-ID: <090120081841.17689.48BC3759000C95190000451922165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

If ALL else fails, rat-size (not mouse-size) sticky traps will immobilize him.  Normally, I'd suggest sticky traps if pets and children were involved, as they would not permanently harm them.

The sticky traps will prevent him from getting away.  You can then either call animal control in your town or get him yourself.  I'd get some very heavy long welder's gloves.  You can then figure out whether you want attempt to free him or kill him. 


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Mon Sep  1 12:50:31 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 14:50:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
In-Reply-To: <090120081841.17689.48BC3759000C95190000451922165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <090120081841.17689.48BC3759000C95190000451922165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <bdde53220809011150g75d48236kc8336303d5e8d35f@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going to disagree with Phil here.  Those sticky traps are
incredibly cruel.  We used them a lot in the basement of a very old
downtown building I worked in in High School and a bit in college.  I
would sometimes find them with a leg stuck in them because the rodent
would chew off its leg to get free.  Or I'd find them with the poor
thing stuck completely flat on the trap missing tons of fur because it
had struggled halfway across.  It could free itself by ripping out the
glued down fur, then when it ran out of fur it was immobilized.

I understand why the mice/rats/squirrels need to be exterminated, but
in my observations the sticky traps cause a ton of suffering.  I know
I'm a big softy but I think it's worth considering.

-Paul

On 9/1/08, pethier at comcast.net <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> If ALL else fails, rat-size (not mouse-size) sticky traps will immobilize him.  Normally, I'd suggest sticky traps if pets and children were involved, as they would not permanently harm them.
>
>  The sticky traps will prevent him from getting away.  You can then either call animal control in your town or get him yourself.  I'd get some very heavy long welder's gloves.  You can then figure out whether you want attempt to free him or kill him.
>
>
>
>  --
>  Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
>  1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
>  pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Sep  1 16:17:34 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:17:34 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
Message-ID: <090120082217.17268.48BC69FE000B36590000437422155538949D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "Paul Parkanzky" <parkanzky at gmail.com>
> I'm going to disagree with Phil here.  Those sticky traps are
> incredibly cruel.  

Thus, my preamble:
 >>If ALL else fails


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Mon Sep  1 16:27:28 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 18:27:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
In-Reply-To: <090120082217.17268.48BC69FE000B36590000437422155538949D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <090120082217.17268.48BC69FE000B36590000437422155538949D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <bdde53220809011527k626fc95ka4120e957ab23316@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry Phil, I read right past that.

-Paul

On 9/1/08, pethier at comcast.net <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> From: "Paul Parkanzky" <parkanzky at gmail.com>
>
> > I'm going to disagree with Phil here.  Those sticky traps are
>  > incredibly cruel.
>
>
> Thus, my preamble:
>   >>If ALL else fails
>
>  --
>  Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
>  1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
>  pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Mon Sep  1 18:39:56 2008
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 20:39:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] bats
Message-ID: <001b01c90c94$6cc4f4f0$0c01a8c0@Fest>

Along the same lines as the squiirels in the basement, we have bats in our
attic.  It was always a few but now the numbers seem to be growing.  Any ideas
how to safely get rid of them ?
Dan

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Mon Sep  1 18:45:55 2008
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 20:45:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR compressor troubles
Message-ID: <002201c90c95$4211e820$0c01a8c0@Fest>

I have an Ingersal Rand air compressor that I purchased new from Northern 21/2
years ago.   It's not used very heavily.  It's 5 hp 220v and wired with #8
wire.  It's around 15 ft from the main box.  I had trouble with the motor
around two months ago and had to purchase a new one.  It's no longer under
warranty.  My problem is that it runs very hot.  When I use it for bead
blasting say 15-20 mins the pump is too hot to touch.  The motor is very warm
as well.  It's in my shop located in a barn (not very tight) so I would think
it gets plenty of air.  Is this normal ?? Can I do anything to help it run
smoother ? I do change the oil pretty regularly.
Thanks,
Dan

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Mon Sep  1 19:01:54 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:01:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR compressor troubles
In-Reply-To: <002201c90c95$4211e820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
References: <002201c90c95$4211e820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <48BC9082.2020806@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Dan,

Check the motor wiring. It may be hard to understand, so if you look at 
the voltage specification and it shows 220/120 or 220/408, the 220 in 
the first one is "high" and "low" in the second one.
Now look at the wiring drawing on the motor and see that it is set to 
match the high or low setting based on the above information. It may 
have the actual voltage marked on the diagram, but most are marked high 
or low.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc):
> I have an Ingersal Rand air compressor that I purchased new from Northern 21/2
> years ago.   It's not used very heavily.  It's 5 hp 220v and wired with #8
> wire.  It's around 15 ft from the main box.  I had trouble with the motor
> around two months ago and had to purchase a new one.  It's no longer under
> warranty.  My problem is that it runs very hot.  When I use it for bead
> blasting say 15-20 mins the pump is too hot to touch.  The motor is very warm
> as well.  It's in my shop located in a barn (not very tight) so I would think
> it gets plenty of air.  Is this normal ?? Can I do anything to help it run
> smoother ? I do change the oil pretty regularly.
> Thanks,
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1646 - Release Date: 9/1/2008 6:03 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Sep  1 19:10:30 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 18:10:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR compressor troubles
In-Reply-To: <002201c90c95$4211e820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <20080902011030.TJYY6020.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> When I use it for bead blasting say 15-20 
> mins the pump is too hot to touch.  The motor is very warm as 
> well.  It's in my shop located in a barn (not very tight) so 
> I would think it gets plenty of air.  Is this normal ??

Sounds pretty normal to me.  Compressing air inevitably generates a lot of
heat.  And most motors are rated for a 40C temperature rise when operated at
continuous full load.

> Can I 
> do anything to help it run smoother ?

You could add a fan to try to cool it better.  Make sure the existing fan
isn't blocked, that sort of thing.  Also that the intake filter is clean.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Sep  1 19:10:46 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:10:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] IR compressor troubles
In-Reply-To: <002201c90c95$4211e820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
References: <002201c90c95$4211e820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080901205930.01d13038@cox.net>

At 08:45 PM 9/1/2008, Dan Fest  wrote:

 >I have an Ingersal Rand air compressor that I purchased new from Northern
 >21/2 years ago....

 >I had trouble with the motor around two months ago and had to purchase a
 >new one....

Dan,

Do you know what was wrong with the old motor?  I have a Craftsman 30 gal,
5hp 220V compressor that I've had for about 15 yrs.  I've only had 1 problem
with the motor.  About 2 yrs ago, it would not start.  I took it to local motor
shop, and they checked it over for me.  The start switch had gotten very dirty,
and could not make contact.  They cleaned the contacts and it's been fine
ever since.  (I really wished I'd check that switch.  But I figured is was the
start or run capacitor or the brushes.)

 >My problem is that it runs very hot.  When I use it for bead 
blasting say 15-20
 >mins the pump is too hot to touch.  The motor is very warm as 
well.   It's in my
 >shop located in a barn (not very tight) so I would think it gets 
plenty of air.  Is
 >this normal ??

I can't say what is normal for your compressor.  But for my compressor, yes -
it gets very hot if I'm using it for any length of time.  Also the 
outside air temp.
makes a big difference.  The hotter it is outside, the hotter the compressor
appears to get.  I have my compressor sitting under a work bench at the back
of my garage.  It is pretty stagnent there as I don't get much air 
flow in the shop
even with the door open.  And it gets VERY hot under the bench.  So I have
mounted a box fan in line with the  compressor.   If I'm going to be really
using the air, like a lot of cutting with my die grinder, blasting, 
using my DA,
etc. I turn the fan on to high to force air over the motor, compressor jugs and
tank to help cool it off.  Even with the fan blowing full bore, the 
motor and tank
still get very hot to the touch.   Don't even thing about touching the actual
compressor!

You might also want to replace your air filter.  As it gets clogged up, the
compressor has to work harder to pull the air in to compress it.

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  1 20:21:48 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:21:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
Message-ID: <691244.62808.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
From: "pethier at comcast.net" pethier at comcast.net
(snip)
>Thus, my preamble:
>>If ALL else fails
(snip)
-------------


Or one
reaches their tolerance level. It took me 7 years of
cleaning rat piss and rat
crap out of my cars. I initially 
thought it was a squirrel too until I
actually saw the llittle
(bleep) staring at me. To spare the gory details,
 Lets just 
say I was not exactly kind to the little bugger. 

I checked the
cars recently, and guess what? His family
is back. I'm going rat hunting
again. Live trapping my @ss.
Clean up enough of the smelly piss and crap and
I'm 
positive you'll reach your tolerance level too. Especially
when the piss
in the spark plug wells cause your car not 
to run properly. Hmfph!  :mad:    
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Mon Sep  1 21:18:44 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:18:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] bats
In-Reply-To: <001b01c90c94$6cc4f4f0$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <C4E1FEA4.5593%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Dan, funny you should ask, we just got a call today that a tenant in a
college area rental house was bit in the neck by a bat. There are 8 guys
living in the house. They caught and killed the bat and took it in, not sure
where. They were told it was rabid and they are all getting rabies shots.
We've tried for years to stop up all the holes, but it's an old house built
in 1910, two stories, an attic and a walkout basement. My wife found a bat
exterminator company and they told her no problem. $125 to check it out, $50
dollar rebate on the work. I'll keep you posted.
Brian


> From: "Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)" <coles at colesnurseries.com>
> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 20:39:56 -0400
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] bats
> 
> Along the same lines as the squiirels in the basement, we have bats in our
> attic.  It was always a few but now the numbers seem to be growing.  Any ideas
> how to safely get rid of them ?
> Dan

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  2 09:44:23 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:44:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] bats
In-Reply-To: <C4E1FEA4.5593%kennedybc@comcast.net>
References: <001b01c90c94$6cc4f4f0$0c01a8c0@Fest>
	<C4E1FEA4.5593%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W230FE8CDAA0601E43247F59A5F0@phx.gbl>

Had a bat in the house last week, flew through the living room while watching
TV.  My guess is that I left the back screen door open long enough earlier in
the night for it to swoop into the kitchen and then hang out for awhile
unnoticed - they fly very quietly...

Used my daughters butterfly catching net to get him though it took a few
tries.  The attic is totally sealed off from the 2nd floor for energy saving
reasons.

Really weird though.> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 20:18:44 -0700> From:
kennedybc at comcast.net> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk]
bats> > Dan, funny you should ask, we just got a call today that a tenant in
a> college area rental house was bit in the neck by a bat. There are 8 guys>
living in the house. They caught and killed the bat and took it in, not sure>
where. They were told it was rabid and they are all getting rabies shots.>
We've tried for years to stop up all the holes, but it's an old house built>
in 1910, two stories, an attic and a walkout basement. My wife found a bat>
exterminator company and they told her no problem. $125 to check it out, $50>
dollar rebate on the work. I'll keep you posted.> Brian> > > > From: "Dan and
Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)" <coles at colesnurseries.com>> > Date: Mon, 1
Sep 2008 20:39:56 -0400> > To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>> > Subject:
[Shop-talk] bats> > > > Along the same lines as the squiirels in the basement,
we have bats in our> > attic. It was always a few but now the numbers seem to
be growing. Any ideas> > how to safely get rid of them ?> > Dan

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Tue Sep  2 10:00:24 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:00:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>

  I need to test  the engine on a 49 dodge. It has a 6v pos ground system.

My charger will do 6V , but has a "safety" feature that wont let it 
charge if it "sees" no voltage at the connectors.

How do I trick it into staring up?

on 12v I just add a jumpbox to the circuit until it gets going.

alternatively, can I jump the starter with 12v without fritzing the 
rest of the electrical system?

thanks

Skip

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Sep  2 10:09:55 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:09:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <20080831.214302.17254.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080831.214302.17254.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701C732D6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Matt wrote:
>
> I am also thinking about converting my 1/4" fittings to 3/8".
> I currently have a mix and it can be frustrating getting things
> matched up so I am looking to reduce one variable...

It's always good to pick one standard and stick with it.

The difference between air flow for 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch fittings is
very, very small.  If you have a lot of 1/4 inch fittings, I'd consider
changing the 3/8 fittings so save money.

I went pondered this change some time back.  That's when I found a nice
chart that showed the pressure/flow loss for the different fittings.  At
typical compressor values, it isn't much difference - using a 10 foot
shorter hose would probably make a bigger difference in flow.  Along
those lines, a larger diameter air hose make much more difference than
the diameter of the fittings at the ends of the hose.

I decided to just go with the normal 1/4 fittings, simply because they
are the most common and easiest to find.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Sep  2 10:15:03 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:15:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701C732D6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <20080831.214302.17254.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701C732D6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809020915q26f246d1ia0d90c255c2dd436@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
> Matt wrote:
>>
>> I am also thinking about converting my 1/4" fittings to 3/8".
>> I currently have a mix and it can be frustrating getting things
>> matched up so I am looking to reduce one variable...
>
> It's always good to pick one standard and stick with it.
>
> The difference between air flow for 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch fittings is
> very, very small.  If you have a lot of 1/4 inch fittings, I'd consider
> changing the 3/8 fittings so save money.
>
> I went pondered this change some time back.  That's when I found a nice
> chart that showed the pressure/flow loss for the different fittings.  At
> typical compressor values, it isn't much difference - using a 10 foot
> shorter hose would probably make a bigger difference in flow.  Along
> those lines, a larger diameter air hose make much more difference than
> the diameter of the fittings at the ends of the hose.
>
> I decided to just go with the normal 1/4 fittings, simply because they
> are the most common and easiest to find.

Another thing to consider is that 3/8 fittings aren't supposed be
undone under pressure.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From arvidj at visi.com  Tue Sep  2 10:26:24 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:26:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>

Note that this does not condone the practice. It simply represents my 
experience.

When growing up we had a '40 Ford flathead v8 dump truck that we would use 
for snow removal. When it would not start on the 6 volt system - often in 
the winter - we would disconnect one of the 6 volt battery cables and jump 
it with a 12 volt battery. The starter would spin - I believe the technical 
term is VERY FAST - and there was plenty of spark so it started very 
quickly. Once started we would quickly move the battery cable back to the 6 
volt system.

We eventually got a snow blower but the truck was still running when it was 
replaced.

Arvid


> alternatively, can I jump the starter with 12v without fritzing the
> rest of the electrical system?

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Sep  2 10:52:04 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:52:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809020952k1e1523f9w442db7d5586df1c6@mail.gmail.com>

*There are tens of thousands of ag and industrial equipment units in service
that were originally 6 volt and have had one-wire 12 volt alternators, 12
volt batteries, and 12 volt coils installed.  The starters work great and
last well.  On these and similar simple systems, I wouldn't hesitate to make
the change.  On cars, dropping resistors for radios and bulb changes for
lights complete the picture.*
*Tony*

From mbarre at juno.com  Tue Sep  2 10:51:49 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:51:49 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
Message-ID: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Thanks for all the replies.  I ultimately found that HF did in fact show some
3/8 fittings, you just had to be very particular in how you searched...
Ultimately the logic of simply sticking with one in light of the minimal
benefit of the larger fitting prevailed and I am sticking with all 1/4".
I did learn something about the differences in fittings from all this
though...  T, U, I/M, etc.  I didn't realize there was such variability.
Thanks again,
Matt



-- "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
> Matt wrote:
>>
>> I am also thinking about converting my 1/4" fittings to 3/8".
>> I currently have a mix and it can be frustrating getting things
>> matched up so I am looking to reduce one variable...
>
> It's always good to pick one standard and stick with it.
>
> The difference between air flow for 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch fittings is
> very, very small.  If you have a lot of 1/4 inch fittings, I'd consider
> changing the 3/8 fittings so save money.
>
> I went pondered this change some time back.  That's when I found a nice
> chart that showed the pressure/flow loss for the different fittings.  At
> typical compressor values, it isn't much difference - using a 10 foot
> shorter hose would probably make a bigger difference in flow.  Along
> those lines, a larger diameter air hose make much more difference than
> the diameter of the fittings at the ends of the hose.
>
> I decided to just go with the normal 1/4 fittings, simply because they
> are the most common and easiest to find.

Another thing to consider is that 3/8 fittings aren't supposed be
undone under pressure.



--
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

____________________________________________________________
Click here to find experienced pros to help with your home improvement
project.
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kaNEd53GP8avJrUxQWIDs/

From mikey at b2systems.com  Tue Sep  2 11:03:36 2008
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:03:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <48BD71E8.8020503@b2systems.com>

 Last year I purchased a 12 pack of "T" style air fittings at HF 
thinking I was saving money, every one of them leaked...  just a tiny 
little leak but everyone of them leaked.  I went back to paying for 
Milton "T" fittings and no leaks.  At least HF gave me my $3 back.  Just 
FYI if you are getting them from HF.

    mike

 P.S. why Milton T ? because its what I started using in the 1970's and 
never stopped.

Matt wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies.  I ultimately found that HF did in fact show some
> 3/8 fittings, you just had to be very particular in how you searched...
> Ultimately the logic of simply sticking with one in light of the minimal
> benefit of the larger fitting prevailed and I am sticking with all 1/4".
> I did learn something about the differences in fittings from all this
> though...  T, U, I/M, etc.  I didn't realize there was such variability.
> Thanks again,
> Matt
>
>
>
> -- "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
>   
>> Matt wrote:
>>     
>>> I am also thinking about converting my 1/4" fittings to 3/8".
>>> I currently have a mix and it can be frustrating getting things
>>> matched up so I am looking to reduce one variable...
>>>       
>> It's always good to pick one standard and stick with it.
>>
>> The difference between air flow for 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch fittings is
>> very, very small.  If you have a lot of 1/4 inch fittings, I'd consider
>> changing the 3/8 fittings so save money.
>>
>> I went pondered this change some time back.  That's when I found a nice
>> chart that showed the pressure/flow loss for the different fittings.  At
>> typical compressor values, it isn't much difference - using a 10 foot
>> shorter hose would probably make a bigger difference in flow.  Along
>> those lines, a larger diameter air hose make much more difference than
>> the diameter of the fittings at the ends of the hose.
>>
>> I decided to just go with the normal 1/4 fittings, simply because they
>> are the most common and easiest to find.
>>     
>
> Another thing to consider is that 3/8 fittings aren't supposed be
> undone under pressure.
>
>   


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Rambour
Bug Writer err...Programmer
      mikey at b2systems.com
****************************************************************
If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car,
then take a look at   http://www.singercars.com/
or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Sep  2 11:04:42 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:04:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701C73364@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Matt
>
> I did learn something about the differences in fittings from
> all this though...  T, U, I/M, etc.  I didn't realize there
> was such variability.

That is exactly why I looked into the air flow differences a few (Few?
More like 10!) years ago.  We I first got my air compressor nearly 30
years ago, I picked the fittings at the local store.  Naturally, the
ones I picked were an uncommon one - a few years later, I could never
find matching fittings, and when I did, they were usually about 5 times
the price of the common ones.

I finally bit the bullet, and whet to my local Home Depot.  They had
bins of air fittings, and they were the common type (not sure which one
of the T, U, I/M, etc. that they actually are though).  But I've always
been sure of an easy supply of the proper fittings at cheap prices.  The
ones that they sell at Home Depot are the same as those sold in the bins
at Lowes, Harbor Freight, etc.  They are also the type that come with
the new air tools when they include a fitting with it.

I have avoided the Harbor Freight fittings as they just don't seem to be
as good a quality as the Home Depot/Lowes fittings.  I also learned to
avoid the "universal" fittings that are supposed to couple with
different types of fittings - they don't seal as well as the "one size
fits one" fittings.



Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Sep  2 11:05:52 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (jamesf at groupwbench.org)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:05:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
Message-ID: <22603.192.85.47.2.1220375152.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>

I got a $2500 estimate for my 2500 sf house. I thought it'd be half that.
DOes anyone have approx pricing floating around their head for gutter jobs
on their house?

thanks
jim

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Sep  2 11:07:37 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:07:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809021007x5a994f5cg251793f198c84c8c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies.  I ultimately found that HF did in fact show some
> 3/8 fittings, you just had to be very particular in how you searched...
> Ultimately the logic of simply sticking with one in light of the minimal
> benefit of the larger fitting prevailed and I am sticking with all 1/4".
> I did learn something about the differences in fittings from all this
> though...  T, U, I/M, etc.  I didn't realize there was such variability.
> Thanks again,
> Matt
>
>

page 36 of the current Milton catalog has a nice chart, with
full-sized drawings of all those difrerent plugs
http://www.miltonindustries.com/uploads/Page_36_Milton_Catalog.pdf

When I ran a shop, one of the things we did when we hired a new wrench
was buy them a bunch of fittings for their air tools, since we used a
different plug than other shops.

Milton's fittings, by the way, are by far the best around.  That's
particularly true of their female couplers.


>
> -- "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
>> Matt wrote:
>>>
>>> I am also thinking about converting my 1/4" fittings to 3/8".
>>> I currently have a mix and it can be frustrating getting things
>>> matched up so I am looking to reduce one variable...
>>
>> It's always good to pick one standard and stick with it.
>>
>> The difference between air flow for 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch fittings is
>> very, very small.  If you have a lot of 1/4 inch fittings, I'd consider
>> changing the 3/8 fittings so save money.
>>
>> I went pondered this change some time back.  That's when I found a nice
>> chart that showed the pressure/flow loss for the different fittings.  At
>> typical compressor values, it isn't much difference - using a 10 foot
>> shorter hose would probably make a bigger difference in flow.  Along
>> those lines, a larger diameter air hose make much more difference than
>> the diameter of the fittings at the ends of the hose.
>>
>> I decided to just go with the normal 1/4 fittings, simply because they
>> are the most common and easiest to find.
>
> Another thing to consider is that 3/8 fittings aren't supposed be
> undone under pressure.
>
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Click here to find experienced pros to help with your home improvement
> project.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nHrlmDhdKtctxmyRcoG15REE3t
> kaNEd53GP8avJrUxQWIDs/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Sep  2 11:41:37 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:41:37 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
Message-ID: <090220081741.9354.48BD7AD1000A39300000248A22120207849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> I got a $2500 estimate for my 2500 sf house. I thought it'd be half that.
> DOes anyone have approx pricing floating around their head for gutter jobs
> on their house?
> 
> thanks
> jim

If if were me, I'd put it out for bids and not accept estimates.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep  2 11:49:31 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:49:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6426152C364C414EB083C0DF07536F62@jdnet.deere.com>

> My charger will do 6V , but has a "safety" feature that wont let it
> charge if it "sees" no voltage at the connectors.

What about hooking up the charger, then giving the battery just a brief shot
of 12v from the cables?  Seems like that should get your charger going.

> alternatively, can I jump the starter with 12v without fritzing the
> rest of the electrical system?

I saw my Dad do this many times to his 30 Packard.  Started the car just
fine with no damage, but the jumper cables got seriously hot.  Don't leave
them connected any longer than absolutely necessary (and I'd suggest gloves
when snatching them off).

Randall

From tr6 at pipeline.com  Tue Sep  2 11:52:58 2008
From: tr6 at pipeline.com (RONALD  OLDS)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:52:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
In-Reply-To: <22603.192.85.47.2.1220375152.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAGR0/UN+345Oi0ESU7rmM4wBAITr15KniR9MuVqf/6yjAv4AAAFImMEAABAAAAA7kdiNeJiBQKliKzOVaumWAQAAAAA=@pipeline.com>

Jim,

I just had gutters installed by ABC Seamless and the cost was $4400.
Conventional aluminum gutters were around $2500.  I was surprised as well at
the price.  I expected it to be about half of that amount.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
jamesf at groupwbench.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 1:06 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?

I got a $2500 estimate for my 2500 sf house. I thought it'd be half that.
DOes anyone have approx pricing floating around their head for gutter jobs
on their house?

thanks
jim
You are subscribed as tr6 at pipeline.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Sep  2 12:21:45 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:21:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080902141307.01ce4e48@cox.net>

At 12:00 PM 9/2/2008, Skip Albright wrote:

 >I need to test  the engine on a 49 dodge. It has a 6v pos ground system.

Skip,

Welcome to the club.  I'm helping my dad work on his 40 Packard, it too is
a 6V pos. ground system.

While this doesn't answer you immediate question, you might want to think
about getting a copy of:

THE OFFICIAL 12 VOLT CONVERSION GUIDE  by Randy Rundle.

from someplace like:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/2867,346_The-Official-12-Volt-Conversion-Guide.html

I don't know if we are going to convert dad's car, but I bought him the book
just in case.  Very informative book.

I have a 65 Morgan which is a 12V pos. ground car.

I keep thinking about changing both dad Packard and my Morgan from Pos.
ground to the more common negative ground.

As to the conversion from Pos to Neg ground, you might want to check out the
article:

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/negative-ground.shtml

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Sep  2 12:31:37 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:31:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080902141307.01ce4e48@cox.net>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080902141307.01ce4e48@cox.net>
Message-ID: <48BD8689.8090500@dimebank.com>

I think that it's common in the 356/VW world to switch everything to 12V but 
leave the 6V starter in place :-)

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Tue Sep  2 18:18:28 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:18:28 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
Message-ID: <090320080018.15126.48BDD7D40001663000003B16220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

where do you live?  I got an ~$800 quote for a ~2000 sq. ft. house in florida.

I'd do what phil suggested, or else head to home depot and put them up yourself.  seamless is great, but not $2500 great.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> I got a $2500 estimate for my 2500 sf house. I thought it'd be half that.
> DOes anyone have approx pricing floating around their head for gutter jobs
> on their house?

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Tue Sep  2 18:46:41 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:46:41 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <090320080046.24853.48BDDE710007E2EE00006115220076230204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

1) proto-blackhawk?  I've got some just blackhawk tools I got from an auto parts store about 10 years ago.  they're great.  made by stanley.  is proto-blackhawk a new thing?  the old catalog I have (yes, I go over it still...so?) doesn't make mention of proto.

2) if sk is no longer owned by facom, I'm buying every 'facom' s-k ratchet I can get my hand on now.  best ratchet mechanism, best rough duty handle.

I am a huge facom fanboy.  shame about the exchange rate nowadays.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Rush <jdrush at enter.net>
> I've been shopping new ratchets and sockets to replace my inadequate 
> Craftsman set too. I purchased these ratchets for tight spaces. Proto 
> Blackhawk Rotators in 3/8" and 1/2"
> <http://www.stanleyproto.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=BH%5FRATCHET&TYPE=PRODUCT&PART
> NUMBER=34950R&SDesc=3%2F8%26%2334%3B+Rotator%26%23153%3B+Ratchet> 
> They work like a charm for nuts where you just don't have any swing, but 
> the handle is too loosey-goosey for everyday ratcheting. Shame they 
> don't offer a 1/4" BTW, Proto and Proto Blackhawk are Stanley 
> companies, so Rotators can also be found under other Stanley brands for 
> cheaper, although I got mine for $20 each from eBay!
> 
> If I sound like a Facom fanboy, I am. Many of my handtools have been 
> gradually converted over to Facom and I have been very pleased with all 
> of them.
> 
> BBTW, SK tools recently became an independent company again. 
> http://www.skhandtool.com/Default.aspx?fusemode=15 They were purchased 
> by Stanley and merged with Facom for a few years. So many of the product 
> are strikingly similar or the same, just with a different name printed 
> on them. You still see a lot of SK/Facom tools being advertised on the 
> net. I'm thinking of getting SK 6-point sockets to replace my Craftsman 
> sets, because they offer flats-grip profiles in every one.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Sep  2 19:16:23 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:16:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <090320080046.24853.48BDDE710007E2EE00006115220076230204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <090320080046.24853.48BDDE710007E2EE00006115220076230204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809021816j4379d670h49405627af81159d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 8:46 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> 1) proto-blackhawk?  I've got some just blackhawk tools I got from an auto parts store about 10 years ago.  they're great.  made by stanley.  is proto-blackhawk a new thing?  the old catalog I have (yes, I go over it still...so?) doesn't make mention of proto.

They're all part of the stanley works, for better or worse.  I think
all the current blackhawk stuff is proto stuff, intended for a
different sales channel.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Sep  2 19:25:38 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:25:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
In-Reply-To: <090320080018.15126.48BDD7D40001663000003B16220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <090320080018.15126.48BDD7D40001663000003B16220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <329ED5C3-7847-4B5C-A7D3-81E44B9E2F9D@groupwbench.org>

On Sep 2, 2008, at 8:18 PM, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:

> where do you live?

Boston-ish.

>
>
> or else head to home depot and put them up yourself.

If that was an option I wouldn't be posting the question :-)

jim

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Tue Sep  2 19:26:53 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:26:53 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <090320080126.22023.48BDE7DD0000A63D00005607220076230204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

yeah, the blackhawk catalog has the stanley logo on it, and they mention it in the blurb at the front.  the whole thing, though, gives you the impression the line is marketed at a lower end consumer.  kinda cheesy pictures, limited (or more limited than mac, et al) selection.  but they're basically mac stuff.  I love them.  they were cheap and they're awesome.

so are they now "proto-blackhawk"?  like there is no more standalone blackhawk?

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 8:46 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> > 1) proto-blackhawk?  I've got some just blackhawk tools I got from an auto 
> parts store about 10 years ago.  they're great.  made by stanley.  is 
> proto-blackhawk a new thing?  the old catalog I have (yes, I go over it 
> still...so?) doesn't make mention of proto.
> 
> They're all part of the stanley works, for better or worse.  I think
> all the current blackhawk stuff is proto stuff, intended for a
> different sales channel.

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Tue Sep  2 20:18:43 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:18:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <48BDF403.1060905@verizon.net>

And yet another somewhat unrelated data point....

Back in the late '70s I had a '51 (or so) GMC half ton pickup.  6 volt 
system, starter via a pedal on the floor.  Ignition switch was a toggle 
on the dash.  Manual choke.  Pull the choke out, step on the starter 
pedal, after it turned over once or twice, flip the toggle; started 
right up.  It had an EIGHT volt battery in it, no other changes.  I 
understand the regulator had been adjusted for enough output to keep it 
charged.  Lights and everything else worked as normal.  The electrical 
system was one of the few things on that truck I DIDN'T have problems 
with.

Dave C

Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> Note that this does not condone the practice. It simply represents my 
> experience.
> 
> When growing up we had a '40 Ford flathead v8 dump truck that we would use 
> for snow removal. When it would not start on the 6 volt system - often in 
> the winter - we would disconnect one of the 6 volt battery cables and jump 
> it with a 12 volt battery. The starter would spin - I believe the technical 
> term is VERY FAST - and there was plenty of spark so it started very 
> quickly. Once started we would quickly move the battery cable back to the 6 
> volt system.
> 
> We eventually got a snow blower but the truck was still running when it was 
> replaced.
> 
> Arvid
> 
> 
>> alternatively, can I jump the starter with 12v without fritzing the
>> rest of the electrical system?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Sep  2 20:55:32 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:55:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <48BDF403.1060905@verizon.net>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
	<48BDF403.1060905@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809021955r51fc75e8pefcb088ad1ecd8a1@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:18 PM, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> And yet another somewhat unrelated data point....
>
> Back in the late '70s I had a '51 (or so) GMC half ton pickup.  6 volt
> system, starter via a pedal on the floor.  Ignition switch was a toggle
> on the dash.  Manual choke.  Pull the choke out, step on the starter
> pedal, after it turned over once or twice, flip the toggle; started
> right up.  It had an EIGHT volt battery in it, no other changes.  I
> understand the regulator had been adjusted for enough output to keep it
> charged.  Lights and everything else worked as normal.  The electrical
> system was one of the few things on that truck I DIDN'T have problems
> with.
>

The 8V battery was a pretty common jalopy fix for a slow turning
starter.  Easier to slap one in, give the voltage regulator a couple
twists of a screwdriver (They're mechanical, and can often be adjusted
to 12V or more) then it is to figure out what's wrong.  (Usually, bad
ground, worn out starter motor, bad genny, or all three.)  Does
shorten life span of light bulbs,though.

It was also done to hot-rodded cars; the high compression motors are
harder to start, and require more oommh  to start.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Sep  2 21:21:04 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:21:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <48BDF403.1060905@verizon.net>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
	<48BDF403.1060905@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809022021n60997ff2ke8a12af069fbc14e@mail.gmail.com>

*The 8 volt thing worked pretty good on tractors and industrial units but
had it's drawbacks in  an auto application.  My college "ride" was a 52
Chevy with a very hotted up 302 CI GMC motor.  The 8 volt battery made it
start lots better and the light were very bright!  However, every light bulb
on the car would blow within 2 or 3 months, even the dome light, and the
vibrator in the radio would die*
*in shorter time. *
*Tony*
*"Since 12 volts are so much better than 6, why didn't we just start with 24
volts in the first place?"*

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 9:18 PM, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:

> And yet another somewhat unrelated data point....
>
> Back in the late '70s I had a '51 (or so) GMC half ton pickup.  6 volt
> system, starter via a pedal on the floor.  Ignition switch was a toggle
> on the dash.  Manual choke.  Pull the choke out, step on the starter
> pedal, after it turned over once or twice, flip the toggle; started
> right up.  It had an EIGHT volt battery in it, no other changes.  I
> understand the regulator had been adjusted for enough output to keep it
> charged.  Lights and everything else worked as normal.  The electrical
> system was one of the few things on that truck I DIDN'T have problems
> with.
>
> Dave C
>
> Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> > Note that this does not condone the practice. It simply represents my
> > experience.
> >
> > When growing up we had a '40 Ford flathead v8 dump truck that we would
> use
> > for snow removal. When it would not start on the 6 volt system - often in
> > the winter - we would disconnect one of the 6 volt battery cables and
> jump
> > it with a 12 volt battery. The starter would spin - I believe the
> technical
> > term is VERY FAST - and there was plenty of spark so it started very
> > quickly. Once started we would quickly move the battery cable back to the
> 6
> > volt system.
> >
> > We eventually got a snow blower but the truck was still running when it
> was
> > replaced.
> >
> > Arvid
> >
> >
> >> alternatively, can I jump the starter with 12v without fritzing the
> >> rest of the electrical system?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>  >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> > http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Tue Sep  2 21:21:16 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:21:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
Message-ID: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>

Later this fall we will be moving from Arkansas to Kentucky.  Part of 
the move will be figuring out a way to box up and move everything in our 
36' x 80' shop.  The shop is pretty much filled to the rafters with 
Triumph car parts, hand and power tools of all kinds, work benches, 
unfinished project cars, etc.  Needless to say its going to be a 
daunting task.

I'm looking for creative ideas on what kind of boxing/packing ideas you 
might have.  So far I've considered plastic totes, 55 gallon drums, 
cardboard boxes, wood crates, etc.

Hopefully for obvious reasons I'd like to keep the cost as low as 
possible (yeah I know fat chance!).

Anyway, if you have a creative idea on how to box up a shop like this 
and move it 620 miles I'd sure like to hear about it!

Thanks,

Brad

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Tue Sep  2 21:37:15 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:37:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902233436.02d01a08@pop.nycap.rr.com>

well, thanks to all of you, good info!

I jumped the starter directly with a 12v jump box.

It clanked hard into the flywheel confirming that we have a seized engine.

next we will try to understand the Gyro-matic semi auto transmission  ;)

thanks

Skip

At 12:00 PM 9/2/2008, you wrote:
>   I need to test  the engine on a 49 dodge. It has a 6v pos ground system.
>
>My charger will do 6V , but has a "safety" feature that wont let it
>charge if it "sees" no voltage at the connectors.
>
>How do I trick it into staring up?
>
>on 12v I just add a jumpbox to the circuit until it gets going.
>
>alternatively, can I jump the starter with 12v without fritzing the
>rest of the electrical system?
>
>thanks
>
>Skip
>
>Nothing is as it appears
>Skip Albright
>Glenmont NY
>salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1647 - Release Date: 
>9/2/2008 6:02 AM

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Sep  2 21:56:45 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:56:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
Message-ID: <OF97098E22.3F283BCE-ON852574B9.0015ACD0-852574B9.0015ACD5@mail.megageek.com>

If you have access to a pallet jack, you can't beat "Unipak boxes."  We use
them everywhere in the Army.  They are plastic tops and bottoms of boxes,
with cardboard sides.  They are VERY durable and are meant to be packed up
and moved like palletized crates.  Here is what they look like...
<http://www.rppcontainers.com/unipak.php?gclid=CPXn8f3dvpUCFRdqQgodywxRRA>
If you can't find a place to buy them, find your nearest National Guard
buddy and ask him.  The Army often has tons of these things lying around
and can spare a few.

Failing that, check with a local moving company in your area and ask them
if they have any REAL moving boxes.  In the past, when I've had to move
large amounts of IT equipment, I got big DURABLE cardboard boxes (about 2
feet wide, 2 feet deep, and 4 feet long.)  You fill them up and then use a
pallet dolly (not a jack, just 4 caster wheels on a little frame) to move
them.  Here is a link for one...
<http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38970>

NOTE- If you don't already have 2 or 3 of these in your shop, you are
working WAY to hard.  I couldn't dream of doing some of the things I do
without them!



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Sep  2 22:38:16 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 04:38:16 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
Message-ID: <090320080438.26426.48BE14B8000395C90000673A22165486869D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: scott.hall at comcast.net
> where do you live?  I got an ~$800 quote for a ~2000 sq. ft. house in florida.
> 
> I'd do what phil suggested, or else head to home depot and put them up yourself.  
> seamless is great, but not $2500 great.
> 
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> > I got a $2500 estimate for my 2500 sf house. I thought it'd be half that.
> > DOes anyone have approx pricing floating around their head for gutter jobs
> > on their house?

When I had my house resided a few years ago, the contractor tossed in an extra.  He had a subcontractor come out and put up two 40-foot seamless gutters, downspouts and 10-foot extensions.  Charge?  100 dollars American.


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Tue Sep  2 22:50:10 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 00:50:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
In-Reply-To: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
References: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
Message-ID: <01a901c90d80$8c5140c0$a4f3c240$@mele@usermail.com>

<<I'm looking for creative ideas on what kind of boxing/packing ideas you 
might have.  So far I've considered plastic totes, 55 gallon drums, 
cardboard boxes, wood crates, etc.>>

part of this equation: consider buying a 40 ft steel shipping container
($800-3000); you can keep it for storage once you've moved, or re sell it
for close to what you paid for it...value depends on distance to shipping
facility, since that's a common source for used ones.
idea is similar to "PODS", but you do the work to buy/ keep/ sell.
we did this for last move; much cheaper than hiring the moving company for
all that stuff...the shipper of the container didn't care about the (huge)
weight, whereas the regular "household" mover did.

From jdrush at enter.net  Tue Sep  2 22:54:28 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:54:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
In-Reply-To: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
References: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
Message-ID: <48BE1884.70801@enter.net>

Hire high school kids who need to raise funds for something big. They'll 
do just about anything for low dough.


Jon

Brad Kahler wrote:
> 
> Anyway, if you have a creative idea on how to box up a shop like this 
> and move it 620 miles I'd sure like to hear about it!

From jdrush at enter.net  Tue Sep  2 23:12:53 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:12:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40809021007x5a994f5cg251793f198c84c8c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080902.125149.5358.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
	<2400a5d40809021007x5a994f5cg251793f198c84c8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48BE1CD5.2010305@enter.net>

Anyone know which styles insert without drawing back the collar?

Jon

David Scheidt wrote:
> page 36 of the current Milton catalog has a nice chart, with
> full-sized drawings of all those difrerent plugs
> http://www.miltonindustries.com/uploads/Page_36_Milton_Catalog.pdf
> 
> When I ran a shop, one of the things we did when we hired a new wrench
> was buy them a bunch of fittings for their air tools, since we used a
> different plug than other shops.
> 
> Milton's fittings, by the way, are by far the best around.  That's
> particularly true of their female couplers.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep  2 23:35:39 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:35:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <48BE1CD5.2010305@enter.net>
Message-ID: <20080903053538.OUUT27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Anyone know which styles insert without drawing back the collar?

Most of them come in either style.  More details at
http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=270

Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Sep  2 23:41:54 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:41:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAGR0/UN+345Oi0ESU7rmM4wBAITr15KniR9MuVqf/6yjAv4AAAFImMEAABAAAAA7kdiNeJiBQKliKzOVaumWAQAAAAA=@pipeline.com>
References: <22603.192.85.47.2.1220375152.squirrel@webmail.groupwbench.org>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAGR0/UN+345Oi0ESU7rmM4wBAITr15KniR9MuVqf/6yjAv4AAAFImMEAABAAAAA7kdiNeJiBQKliKzOVaumWAQAAAAA=@pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <CB5B52A48C7B463F992E1B269AB91240@HPPavilion>

Gutter pricing is out of control.  I have been looking at it recently and
elected to repair, rather than replace.

I don't understand why.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of RONALD
OLDS
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 10:53 AM
To: jamesf at groupwbench.org; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?

Jim,

I just had gutters installed by ABC Seamless and the cost was $4400.
Conventional aluminum gutters were around $2500.  I was surprised as well at
the price.  I expected it to be about half of that amount.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
jamesf at groupwbench.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 1:06 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?

I got a $2500 estimate for my 2500 sf house. I thought it'd be half that.
DOes anyone have approx pricing floating around their head for gutter jobs
on their house?

thanks
jim
You are subscribed as tr6 at pipeline.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Sep  3 08:02:46 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
In-Reply-To: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
References: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809030959160.2945@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008, Brad Kahler wrote:
> Later this fall we will be moving from Arkansas to Kentucky.  Part of 
> the move will be figuring out a way to box up and move everything in our 
> 36' x 80' shop.  The shop is pretty much filled to the rafters with 
> Triumph car parts, hand and power tools of all kinds, work benches, 
> unfinished project cars, etc.  Needless to say its going to be a 
> daunting task.
>
> I'm looking for creative ideas on what kind of boxing/packing ideas you 
> might have.  So far I've considered plastic totes, 55 gallon drums, 
> cardboard boxes, wood crates, etc.
>
> Hopefully for obvious reasons I'd like to keep the cost as low as 
> possible (yeah I know fat chance!).
>
> Anyway, if you have a creative idea on how to box up a shop like this 
> and move it 620 miles I'd sure like to hear about it!

Holy crap!  That's gonna be a daunting task for sure... I've done this 
twice, but quite a bit smaller.

This seems a bit silly perhaps, but something that worked for me was to 
basically throw everything into an enclosed trailer, then sort it out when 
I got to my destination.

Obviously this has some limitations... You don't want the engine laying on 
the radiator, for instance.  :-)  You also don't want to loose the ability 
to identify stuff.

But, my primary advice is to figure out where everything is going to go in 
the new shop, then only do enough to make sure that when you get there 
you won't have wrecked the stuff & will be able to figure out what it is.

Mark

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Wed Sep  3 08:07:42 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:07:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts
In-Reply-To: <48BDF403.1060905@verizon.net>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080902115724.02abe270@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<014101c90d18$a49a4680$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
	<48BDF403.1060905@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <48BE9A2E.5010203@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Dave,

8 volt batteries are/were fairly common on older farm tractors. The 6 
volt batteries just didn't get the engines to turn over very fast and 
had a weak spark, probably from lack of maintenance of the electrical 
system. When I bought my 1952 Farmall Super C, it had an 8 volt battery 
in it. It worked fine until the battery died. Rather than put in another 
8 volt battery (still very available here in farm country), I replaced 
the coil and generator with 12 volt parts. It has worked fine ever 
since. I have some lights to get working on it, but there is no rush, I 
don't use it after dark and have higher priority use of my time.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David C.:
> And yet another somewhat unrelated data point....
>
> Back in the late '70s I had a '51 (or so) GMC half ton pickup.  6 volt 
> system, starter via a pedal on the floor.  Ignition switch was a toggle 
> on the dash.  Manual choke.  Pull the choke out, step on the starter 
> pedal, after it turned over once or twice, flip the toggle; started 
> right up.  It had an EIGHT volt battery in it, no other changes.  I 
> understand the regulator had been adjusted for enough output to keep it 
> charged.  Lights and everything else worked as normal.  The electrical 
> system was one of the few things on that truck I DIDN'T have problems 
> with.
>
> Dave C
>
> Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
>   
>> Note that this does not condone the practice. It simply represents my 
>> experience.
>>
>> When growing up we had a '40 Ford flathead v8 dump truck that we would use 
>> for snow removal. When it would not start on the 6 volt system - often in 
>> the winter - we would disconnect one of the 6 volt battery cables and jump 
>> it with a 12 volt battery. The starter would spin - I believe the technical 
>> term is VERY FAST - and there was plenty of spark so it started very 
>> quickly. Once started we would quickly move the battery cable back to the 6 
>> volt system.
>>
>> We eventually got a snow blower but the truck was still running when it was 
>> replaced.
>>
>> Arvid
>>
>>
>>     
>>> alternatively, can I jump the starter with 12v without fritzing the
>>> rest of the electrical system?
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
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>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.15/1648 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 5:29 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Wed Sep  3 08:21:06 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:21:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
In-Reply-To: <01a901c90d80$8c5140c0$a4f3c240$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
	<01a901c90d80$8c5140c0$a4f3c240$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <48BE9D52.8040404@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Shipping containers are great! We bought one about 10 years ago for a 
move of about 40 miles figuring that we would sell it when we got to our 
destination. WRONG! We still have it and use it as a storage unit. All 
off-season stuff goes in it. Works great!

You might want to consider installing wood shelves/bins on each side to 
hold some of the stuff, then just leave it in the container when you get 
where you are going. Fill the rest of the container with stuff that will 
come out.

If you need to build yourself a shop when you get moved, consider this. 
Buy 2 shipping containers and when the time comes to build the shop, 
have your slab poured to handle the size of the shop, plus twice the 
width of a shipping container. Position the containers on opposite sides 
of the slab and build a roof across them, giving you a new shop with 
LOTS of storage. There is a local contractor with a shop like this that 
I can get a picture of He even continued the roof out past the 
containers so there is basically a pole barn on each end for storing 
large equipment out of the weather. I've been thinking about building 
one for myself to house my spare cars (read waiting for restoration) and 
farm equipment. I have a 30'x40' shop already, so this would be mainly 
for storage.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Paul Mele:
> <<I'm looking for creative ideas on what kind of boxing/packing ideas you 
> might have.  So far I've considered plastic totes, 55 gallon drums, 
> cardboard boxes, wood crates, etc.>>
>
> part of this equation: consider buying a 40 ft steel shipping container
> ($800-3000); you can keep it for storage once you've moved, or re sell it
> for close to what you paid for it...value depends on distance to shipping
> facility, since that's a common source for used ones.
> idea is similar to "PODS", but you do the work to buy/ keep/ sell.
> we did this for last move; much cheaper than hiring the moving company for
> all that stuff...the shipper of the container didn't care about the (huge)
> weight, whereas the regular "household" mover did.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.15/1648 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 5:29 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Sep  3 08:22:15 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:22:15 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Prices for gutters?
Message-ID: <090320081422.4003.48BE9D97000DC71C00000FA3220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

because it can be; people will pay it.  I was amazed at the $800 figure.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>
> Gutter pricing is out of control.  I have been looking at it recently and
> elected to repair, rather than replace.
> 
> I don't understand why.

From robolane at sbcglobal.net  Wed Sep  3 08:30:29 2008
From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (ROBERT LANE)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
Message-ID: <593708.18265.qm@web82003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What about buying or renting a shipping container?  If you bought one early, then you would have time to load it and figure out best method to secure everything.  You could build shelving and dividers to hold your different lard items.  I think they have u type rods along upper sides you could secure long items.  When you got to Kentucky you would have time to unload.  Wrap with cardboard  your shelving and the saranwrap type stuff that is used for securing pallet loads. Then load the shelves with everything in it.  There used to be cardboard barrels available.
Just some thoughts, hope it helps

 
CATCH YOU LATER,
     ROBO

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Sep  3 08:47:01 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:47:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
In-Reply-To: <48BE9D52.8040404@HorneSystemsTx.com>
References: <48BE02AC.4000505@141.com>
	<01a901c90d80$8c5140c0$a4f3c240$@mele@usermail.com>
	<48BE9D52.8040404@HorneSystemsTx.com>
Message-ID: <48BEA365.9040104@xxiii.com>

Paul wrote:
>> <<I'm looking for creative ideas on what kind of boxing/packing ideas you 
>> might have.  So far I've considered plastic totes, 55 gallon drums, 
>> cardboard boxes, wood crates, etc.>>

All us shop guys tend to be hellacious pack rats.  Moving is a 
~wonderful time~ to sift through all your accumulated crap, asking 
yourself "do I REALLY need this thing I haven't touched in 5 (or 10, or 
20) years" and discard it if appropriate.  YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID. 
Especially with scrap metal prices as high as they are.

The scrap metal place here is paying $11.50/100lbs "mixed metal", 
including cars, major appliances, etc.  $0.80 to $1.00/lb for "clean 
aluminum, including cans".  And nearly $4.00/lb for copper and maybe brass.

Lowes has nice industrial-style plastic totes that are stackable and 
nestable and fairly strong.  The liquor store has really beefy cardboard 
boxes with handy dividers.  Grocery store boxes usually means going in 
at 4am while they're stocking, then you'll find the boxes for boxed 
goods do not have a full top & bottom in them.  Check you local 
CraigsList.org for moving supplies, often under the "free" section.

   -Wayne

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Wed Sep  3 19:02:31 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:02:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3
Message-ID: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>

My next-door neighbor just bought a 93 Sea Ray with a Mercruiser 4.3 V6 
engine.  He has had a heck of a time starting it but once he does get it 
running it runs good.  He called me tonight thinking that I might help with 
the problem.  We centered on the electric choke and I think the problem is 
in the driver seat.  He doesn't have a manual so we don't know what the 
procedure should be.  It looks like the throttle should be disengaged from 
the shit mechanism with the unlock button below the engine control.  At the 
first detent the choke seems to be free to move mechanically and if cold the 
electric choke servo should move the choke butterfly.  Can anyone confirm 
what the starting sequence should be, are we getting warm?  It is a Alpha 
One Chevy based V6, 2 barrel carb with a Thunderbolt ignition.  I can't seem 
to find anything on line about operating the engine.

Help,  he is taking his family to the lake tomorrow evening for a long 
weekend.

Mark
Nashville

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Wed Sep  3 19:12:48 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:12:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Spridgets] Mercruiser 4.3
References: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <D80700ED9FBC43BBB91EE8236A9DBFD5@Dell9200>

Make that "SHIFT mechanism"  OOPS!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark" <mark at nashvilletn.org>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; "Spridgets" <spridgets at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 8:02 PM
Subject: [Spridgets] Mercruiser 4.3



My next-door neighbor just bought a 93 Sea Ray with a Mercruiser 4.3 V6
engine.  He has had a heck of a time starting it but once he does get it
running it runs good.  He called me tonight thinking that I might help with
the problem.  We centered on the electric choke and I think the problem is
in the driver seat.  He doesn't have a manual so we don't know what the
procedure should be.  It looks like the throttle should be disengaged from
the SHIFT mechanism with the unlock button below the engine control.  At the
first detent the choke seems to be free to move mechanically and if cold the
electric choke servo should move the choke butterfly.  Can anyone confirm
what the starting sequence should be, are we getting warm?  It is a Alpha
One Chevy based V6, 2 barrel carb with a Thunderbolt ignition.  I can't seem
to find anything on line about operating the engine.

Help,  he is taking his family to the lake tomorrow evening for a long
weekend.

Mark
Nashville
You are subscribed as mark at nashvilletn.org

http://www.team.net/archive

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/spridgets 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Sep  3 19:30:36 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:30:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Spridgets] Mercruiser 4.3
In-Reply-To: <D80700ED9FBC43BBB91EE8236A9DBFD5@Dell9200>
References: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
	<D80700ED9FBC43BBB91EE8236A9DBFD5@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <48BF3A3C.2040302@xxiii.com>

Mark wrote:
> Make that "SHIFT mechanism"  OOPS!

Sounds like both are a PEBCaK issues  :)

   -Wayne

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Sep  3 19:50:16 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:50:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3
In-Reply-To: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
References: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <48BF3ED8.9030102@boicey.com>

Mark wrote:
> My next-door neighbor just bought a 93 Sea Ray with a Mercruiser 4.3 V6 
> engine.  He has had a heck of a time starting it but once he does get it 
> running it runs good.  He called me tonight thinking that I might help with 
> the problem.  We centered on the electric choke and I think the problem is 
> in the driver seat.  He doesn't have a manual so we don't know what the 
> procedure should be.  It looks like the throttle should be disengaged from 
> the shit mechanism with the unlock button below the engine control.  At the 
> first detent the choke seems to be free to move mechanically and if cold the 
> electric choke servo should move the choke butterfly.  Can anyone confirm 
> what the starting sequence should be, are we getting warm?  It is a Alpha 
> One Chevy based V6, 2 barrel carb with a Thunderbolt ignition.  I can't seem 
> to find anything on line about operating the engine.

   The proper starting technique is important, I have the smaller 
Mercruiser 3.0, relative new, 2006. If you follow it it starts well, if 
you don't, you look silly trying to start your new boat and it doesn't 
start.

   So ideally, find that starting procedure... but...

   If it's the carb'ed V6, the procedure is PROBABLY...

- Push in throttle-only button
- Slowly move throttle all the way wide open, then retreat to about 30% 
throttle. This sets the choke.
- Start engine.
- After running a minute or so, you should be able to lower the throttle 
to idle, which will click out the "throttle only" button and away you go.

   If it doesn't start right away, I usually pump the throttle forward 
and back quickly. But this may actually be a bad habit, although it does 
seem to work eventually.

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Sep  3 20:33:57 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:33:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Spridgets] Mercruiser 4.3
Message-ID: <OFAAAD569F.0A2927F5-ON852574BA.000E1881-852574BA.000E188B@mail.megageek.com>

I hate to chime in with the obvious, but are you guys making sure to prime
the fuel line prior to starting?  There is a bulb that needs to be squeezed
until it gets very hard before you try to start it.

If you know about this step, I don't mean to insult you or anything, it
would cause the problem you are seeing however.



Moose
"Everything I know about knots, I've learned from Alexander the Great."

From mark at bradakis.com  Thu Sep  4 00:02:10 2008
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:02:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <20080903053538.OUUT27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20080903053538.OUUT27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <48BF79E2.2080002@bradakis.com>

Years ago when I was still brewing beer at the house I got some
nice brass quick connect water hose fittings.  I didn't really look
at them that closely, and assumed they were like air line fittings
and could be disconnected under pressure.

I got a bit wet.

mjb.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Thu Sep  4 09:41:01 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 10:41:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fittings
In-Reply-To: <48BF79E2.2080002@bradakis.com>
References: <20080903053538.OUUT27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<48BF79E2.2080002@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701CC4ED8@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Mark J Bradakis
>
> Years ago when I was still brewing beer at the house I got some
> nice brass quick connect water hose fittings.  I didn't really look
> at them that closely, and assumed they were like air line fittings
> and could be disconnected under pressure.
>
> I got a bit wet.

:)  :)  :)

I have some quick disconnect fittings on my garden hoses.  They don't
seal when you disconnect them.  But one that I have does.  The problem
is, that when the water pressure is applied to the hose, I really can't
push a plug into that coupler as the water pressure keeps the valve in
the coupler closed.  I never use that water hose coupler...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  4 10:44:58 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 09:44:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fittings
In-Reply-To: <mailman.25.1220464802.26368.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <217013.14480.qm@web54306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I recently bought some from Lowe's; they came in a small pack that had one of each style.  For the one that had an auto-stopper, it seems to work much better if you have the ends lined up squarely, and then start push the couplings together before fanning the sliding ring just enough to allow the couplings to seat.  Otherwise, I got sprayed alot too....

>I have some quick disconnect fittings on my garden hoses.  They don't
>seal when you disconnect them.  But one that I have does.  The problem
>is, that when the water pressure is applied to the hose, I really can't
>push a plug into that coupler as the water pressure keeps the valve in
>the coupler closed.  I never use that water hose coupler...

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  4 14:12:31 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 13:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Notching rafters for purlins?
Message-ID: <592182.24366.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
I have a set of 2x6 rafters (25) that I need to notch for some 2x2 purlins.  There are 6 purlins per rafter, so a lot of notching....
The only way I'm aware of to make these notches is to saw a number of closely spaced slots, then knock out the "fingers", and use a chisel to clean up the groove.
Is there a better way to do this, given the number of notches required?  I have just basic hand and power tools (circ saw, jigsaw, router); no table saw or anything else like that.  Any ideas appreciated!

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Thu Sep  4 14:24:19 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:24:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Notching rafters for purlins?
In-Reply-To: <592182.24366.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <592182.24366.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48C043F3.8020406@HorneSystemsTx.com>

If the rafters are not up, put them side by side and make the cuts all 
at once. They will line up better that way.

If you just cut the end cuts with a saw you can then use a chisel to 
knock out larger chunks.

Having said that, around here (central Texas) purlins are just attached 
to the top of the rafters and not cut in. Cutting into a 2x6 will give 
you the strength of whatever material is still left, so that would make 
your rafter strength equivalent to that of a 2x4.

You could also cut the purlins and nail them between the uncut rafters, 
or just nail the purlins on top of the rafters and scab in 2x2's to run 
on top of the rafters to make them the same height as the purlins.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Obaa:
> Hi all,
> I have a set of 2x6 rafters (25) that I need to notch for some 2x2 purlins.  There are 6 purlins per rafter, so a lot of notching....
> The only way I'm aware of to make these notches is to saw a number of closely spaced slots, then knock out the "fingers", and use a chisel to clean up the groove.
> Is there a better way to do this, given the number of notches required?  I have just basic hand and power tools (circ saw, jigsaw, router); no table saw or anything else like that.  Any ideas appreciated!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.16/1651 - Release Date: 9/4/2008 6:57 AM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Sep  4 14:44:24 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:44:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Notching rafters for purlins?
In-Reply-To: <592182.24366.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <592182.24366.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48C048A8.1040804@dimebank.com>

I guess it depends on how clean you want the cuts/channels.

I often build shelves out of 2x4s, and I notch the uprights to hold the 
crosspieces. All I do is set my circular saw to 2x4 depth, cut either end of the 
notch and whack with a hammer. The bottom won't be perfect, but it will be 
close, since it's breaking in parallel with the grain.

In my case, the shelf weight is supported on one of the cut edges, which is 
straight. For purlins, that's not going to be (entirely) true.

From gpd4 at juno.com  Thu Sep  4 15:07:26 2008
From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:07:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Notching rafters for purlins?
Message-ID: <20080904.170726.5436.39.gpd4@juno.com>

Please Note:  I have never tried this!!!!!
That being said, I would see if I couldn't buy a DADO blade and put it on
a circular saw.  Adjust it to a controllable width and the cuts would be
quick.
Just my thought.
GPD4
 
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 13:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Obaa <obaa996 at yahoo.com> writes:
> Hi all,
> I have a set of 2x6 rafters (25) that I need to notch for some 2x2 
> purlins.  There are 6 purlins per rafter, so a lot of notching....
> The only way I'm aware of to make these notches is to saw a number 
> of closely spaced slots, then knock out the "fingers", and use a 
> chisel to clean up the groove.
> Is there a better way to do this, given the number of notches 
> required?  I have just basic hand and power tools (circ saw, jigsaw, 
> router); no table saw or anything else like that.  Any ideas 
> appreciated!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
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From jdrush at enter.net  Thu Sep  4 20:00:02 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:00:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Notching rafters for purlins?
In-Reply-To: <592182.24366.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <592182.24366.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48C092A2.30804@enter.net>

Would you happen to have 24-inch centers? I'd use Simpson Strong-Ties 
truss braces instead of notching and purlins. 
http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/catalogs/c-hw05-r/C-HW05-R-07.pdf Much 
simpler, faster and stronger. Cheap too. You can get them in bulk for 
about $1.70 each.

Jon

Obaa wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have a set of 2x6 rafters (25) that I need to notch for some 2x2 purlins.  There are 6 purlins per rafter, so a lot of notching....
> The only way I'm aware of to make these notches is to saw a number of closely spaced slots, then knock out the "fingers", and use a chisel to clean up the groove.
> Is there a better way to do this, given the number of notches required?  I have just basic hand and power tools (circ saw, jigsaw, router); no table saw or anything else like that.  Any ideas appreciated!

From jdrush at enter.net  Thu Sep  4 20:31:39 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:31:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <090320080126.22023.48BDE7DD0000A63D00005607220076230204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <090320080126.22023.48BDE7DD0000A63D00005607220076230204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <48C09A0B.2000104@enter.net>

I forgot, Britool (British Tool and Engineering Company) is another 
Stanley brand, mostly sold in the UK. They also shared designs with 
Facom and SK. This one <http://www.britool.com/product.php?p=AFS20> 
looks like the Roto/Tuff1 It's at a decent bid price at the moment.
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290257694609>

I'm pretty sure Blackhawk is gone as a stand-alone. I don't see a 
separate web page for them anywhere.

Jon

scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
> yeah, the blackhawk catalog has the stanley logo on it, and they
> mention it in the blurb at the front.  the whole thing, though, gives
> you the impression the line is marketed at a lower end consumer.
> kinda cheesy pictures, limited (or more limited than mac, et al)
> selection.  but they're basically mac stuff.  I love them.  they were
> cheap and they're awesome.
> 
> so are they now "proto-blackhawk"?  like there is no more standalone
> blackhawk?

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Sep  4 21:29:09 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:29:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
In-Reply-To: <OF97098E22.3F283BCE-ON852574B9.0015ACD0-852574B9.0015ACD5@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF97098E22.3F283BCE-ON852574B9.0015ACD0-852574B9.0015ACD5@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <48C0A785.1050805@141.com>

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions!  I did forget to mention 
that we're almost certain to be using at least one 8 x 40 conex to haul 
shop stuff to Kentucky.  We currently own one in Texas but will be 
selling it there and buying one locally in Arkansas.

Moose, I like the Unipak boxes but I have a hunch they would cost more 
than I'd like to spend.  I do have a half dozen or more of the moving 
carts from Harbor Freight that will be used during the move.  I use them 
frequently to move engines around the shop.

Jon, in the neck of woods I live in I don't think I want any of the 
local kids helping out.  While we haven't had a problem with vandalism 
as yet I don't want to tempt fate.  I do have a few people I can call on 
when the time comes to help me transfer stuff from the shop to the 
shipping container(s). 

Mark, I've moved my shop (smaller at the time) from Nebraska to Texas 
and then from Texas to Arkansas.  Each time the shop has gotten bigger 
(wow, imagine that!) and fuller!  We do have a gutted 31' Airstream 
trailer that we will also be using to haul stuff during the move.  It 
actually holds quite a lot of stuff.  The trick is to load the lighter 
stuff in the Airstream so you can pack it fuller.  I used the Airstream 
to move stuff from Texas to Arkansas and packed about like you 
suggested, randomly with no order in mind.  It made the trip and thats 
all I needed at the time.

Pat, I'd be a little leary of building shelves in one due to potential 
for lousy driving by the truck driver.  I can just see things getting 
thrown around as he whips through the mountains in Kentucky!  However, 
in the Conex we own in Texas I built shelves on one side of the Conex 
suspended from the ceiling.  That allowed me to park two Triumphs in the 
Conex and still have room for more storage.  Worked quite well.

Robo, unfortunately most stuff is not on shelves such that it could be 
wrapped.  Currently the shop is a disaster because we've got a 20' 
Airstream Argosy motorhome up on jack stands with all of the suspension 
removed and in the process of being replaced. 

Wayne, the term pack rat just touches the surface of the desease that my 
wife and I seem to share!  We do however have plans on downsizing this 
time.  (yeah right!)  Hadn't thought of looking on Craigs List for 
moving stuff.  Have to give that a shot.

Fred, I'm afraid its going to have to be a "come and get it" sort of 
thing!  If you want the TR3 parts you're going to have to show up and do 
the packing yourself.  I can't spare the time!

Again, thanks for all the suggestions.  Now if I can just find the 
energy.......

Brad

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Sep  4 22:04:54 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:04:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] creative moving/packing ideas
In-Reply-To: <48C0A785.1050805@141.com>
References: <OF97098E22.3F283BCE-ON852574B9.0015ACD0-852574B9.0015ACD5@mail.megageek.com>
	<48C0A785.1050805@141.com>
Message-ID: <48C0AFE6.8000605@xxiii.com>

Brad Kahler wrote:
> Jon, in the neck of woods I live in I don't think I want any of the 
> local kids helping out.  While we haven't had a problem with vandalism 

Somethin' else I should have mentioned:  every town has major shipping 
and moving companies.  The trucks and drivers go all over the country. 
But the movers themselves are local crews that only work locally.  While 
they would love to have you pay thousands to do the whole job, they also 
like to keep their crews busy.  You can usually call up and say "I need 
to hire a two man crew for 2 - 3 hours to pack my truck for a 
residential move" and they are happy to supply the labor at very good 
rates.  This was a suggestion from my uncle who has moved way to often.

I boxed all my stuff, rented a Ryder truck, and had made arrangements 
with a company.  Two guys came out, emptied the whole house in 2 hours, 
professionally packed the truck and tied things down... and [drum roll] 
changed me $150!  MONEY VERY WELL SPENT!  My friends and I are middle 
aged-ish and just not up for this crap like the college days.  The 
movers didn't scratch anything, and were insured if they did!

On the new house end, I have a 3 floor house with lots of stairs built 
on the side of a 50ft slope, so the crew we found wanted $315 to unpack. 
  Still a bargain.

Keep all your receipts for your moving expenses ('cept meals, that's 
your expense);  if you itemize you can deduct them on your taxes, though 
usually the 2nd year you've been in the place.

   -Wayne

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Fri Sep  5 18:57:06 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:57:06 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] YOU HAVE GOT TO BE %*@)ING WITH ME! (really easy
 battery question).
Message-ID: <090620080057.3586.48C1D5620003CEB000000E02220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

simple, but I have no pride:

what voltage is a lawn tractor battery typically?

new husky tractor from home depot.  battery flat.  6 or 12 volt?  the )#&@ battery doesn't say, the &$(@ manual doesn't say, and my multimeter is at the other house.

@*&@!

thanks.

scott

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Sep  5 19:04:27 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 18:04:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] YOU HAVE GOT TO BE %*@)ING WITH ME! (really easy
 battery question).
In-Reply-To: <090620080057.3586.48C1D5620003CEB000000E02220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <090620080057.3586.48C1D5620003CEB000000E02220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A9CC1919DC15488A8E94CA605B34BBD3@jdnet.deere.com>

> what voltage is a lawn tractor battery typically?

Typically 12v.

>   6 or 12 volt?  the )#&@
> battery doesn't say, the &$(@ manual doesn't say, and my multimeter is at
> the other house.

You should be able to see at least some sign of the divider between the
cells, even if it's just a dimple or dark line on the outside of the case.
6V batteries only have 3 cells (unless it's not a lead-acid at all), while
12v batteries have 6 cells.

Randall

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Fri Sep  5 19:06:06 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 20:06:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] YOU HAVE GOT TO BE %*@)ING WITH ME! (really easy
 battery question).
In-Reply-To: <090620080057.3586.48C1D5620003CEB000000E02220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <090620080057.3586.48C1D5620003CEB000000E02220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <48C1D77E.4020106@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Generally 12V. I don't think I've ever seen a 6V unit.

If you have any doubt you can always charge the battery with a 6V 
charger and see if there is any charge current. If not, go to 12V.

Peace,
Pat

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake scott.hall at comcast.net:
> simple, but I have no pride:
>
> what voltage is a lawn tractor battery typically?
>
> new husky tractor from home depot.  battery flat.  6 or 12 volt?  the )#&@ battery doesn't say, the &$(@ manual doesn't say, and my multimeter is at the other house.
>
> @*&@!
>
> thanks.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.16/1654 - Release Date: 9/5/2008 1:24 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Sep  5 19:54:42 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 18:54:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] YOU HAVE GOT TO BE %*@)ING WITH ME! (really easy
 battery question).
In-Reply-To: <090620080057.3586.48C1D5620003CEB000000E02220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <090620080057.3586.48C1D5620003CEB000000E02220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <48C1E2E2.5070205@verizon.net>

And fortunately, lawn tractor batteries are pretty universal.  You can 
get them at Wally World for $25 or $30, usually.

Dave C


On 9/5/2008 scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
> simple, but I have no pride:
> 
> what voltage is a lawn tractor battery typically?
> 
> new husky tractor from home depot.  battery flat.  6 or 12 volt?  the 
> )#&@ battery doesn't say, the &$(@ manual doesn't say, and my 
> multimeter is at the other house.

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Sep  5 20:36:10 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 02:36:10 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] YOU HAVE GOT TO BE %*@)ING WITH ME! (really easy
 battery question).
Message-ID: <090620080236.27070.48C1EC9A0003B9DD000069BE22165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net>
> And fortunately, lawn tractor batteries are pretty universal.  You can 
> get them at Wally World for $25 or $30, usually.
> 
> Dave C
> 

The one in my Miata seems to be holding up fine.
--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sat Sep  6 09:09:13 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:09:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting a new gas tank
Message-ID: <01e601c91032$866bf100$6401a8c0@niolon>

I'm in the second decade of building a street truck... '53 f-100.  It's 
still in pieces but plans are made to paint the frame and suspension parts 
this weekend and start building back up... It's been almost together already 
once...

thinking about the gas tank... It's a repro Mustang tank that has been 
mounted between the frame rails under the bed.  It's from gastanks.com and 
is a new repro item.. it's coating is Corrosion Resistent Ni-Terne steel... 
so I'm assuming it's somewhat rust resistant.

I think I want to paint it to match frame color  (sherwin williams acrylic 
urethane dark gray metallic) and wonder what the prep might need to be ??? 
just prime and paint or does
Corrosion Resistent Ni-Terne steel have to be etched/prepped a different 
way...

anyone have any experience with this type stuff.... guess I could call SW 
but it's the weekend and they're closed...

any ideas ???

thanks
John

Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Sep  6 11:55:40 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:55:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Slatwall Interchangeability?
Message-ID: <48C2C41C.6080502@enter.net>

Are slatwall wall panels and accessories pretty much interchangeable? We 
are thinking of revamping our current mudroom/garage entrance/laundry 
room/powder room arrangement and we would be tearing out a bunch of 
garage shelving and storage closets to do it. One idea we had for 
replacement, would be to turn one long wall into a slatwall and fill it 
with all sorts of hooks and bins to store toys, tools and sporting 
goods. I'd hate to get locked into one proprietary system, I'd rather 
buy into an "open source" solution where I can purchase accessories from 
anywhere.

Jon

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Sat Sep  6 15:52:41 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:52:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3
References: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <18F7F6785FD746AEB3E47C06D263D95D@Dell9200>

Thanks for all of the tips, we got the engine running like a champ and the 
vacation was saved.  It turned out to be a corroded plug on the ignition 
amplifier board that mounts on the side of the distributor.  Sometimes it 
would work and other times not.  We cleaned the "green" out and it fired 
right up.  We filled it with silicone grease so hopefully it won't do it 
again.  I won't be complaining about expensive parts again for a while, the 
plug with 5 feet of wire is $70 and the ignition module is about $300.  Glad 
we didn't need either.

Mark


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark" <mark at nashvilletn.org>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; "Spridgets" <spridgets at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 8:02 PM
Subject: [Spridgets] Mercruiser 4.3



My next-door neighbor just bought a 93 Sea Ray with a Mercruiser 4.3 V6
engine.  He has had a heck of a time starting it but once he does get it
running it runs good.  He called me tonight thinking that I might help with
the problem.  We centered on the electric choke and I think the problem is
in the driver seat.  He doesn't have a manual so we don't know what the
procedure should be.  It looks like the throttle should be disengaged from
the shit mechanism with the unlock button below the engine control.  At the
first detent the choke seems to be free to move mechanically and if cold the
electric choke servo should move the choke butterfly.  Can anyone confirm
what the starting sequence should be, are we getting warm?  It is a Alpha
One Chevy based V6, 2 barrel carb with a Thunderbolt ignition.  I can't seem
to find anything on line about operating the engine.

Help,  he is taking his family to the lake tomorrow evening for a long
weekend.

Mark

From arvidj at visi.com  Sat Sep  6 19:34:19 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:34:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet again ... best OBD-II hardware/software package ...
References: <01e601c91032$866bf100$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <003801c91089$da256ea0$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>

I need to diagnose the Check Engine light on the wife's '97 BMW M3.

Given the plethora of Wintel laptops I have lying around it would seem that 
getting the hardware and software to make one into a dedicated OBD-II reader 
would be the appropriate path.

It seems it has been about a year since this topic was discussed so ... what 
are the latest thoughs on the subject?

Thanks,
Arvid 

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sat Sep  6 20:21:44 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 19:21:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3
References: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
	<18F7F6785FD746AEB3E47C06D263D95D@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <002101c91090$79ccf4e0$95347d80@B50SS>

Dear Mark,

Is that the GM 4.3 V6 engine in marine mode?

I have an '03 GMC Savana cargo van with the 4.3L V6, and I think it is the 
best truck engine ever. It develops 260 ft/lbs of torque at 2,800 RPM and 
gets 20+ MPG on the highway. It is a torquey stump puller that sips gas. It 
just about the best engine I have owned.

It probably is one of GM's oldest engines, too, as it is a 90-degree V-6 
developed in the mid-1980s by removing two cylinders from GM 's small block 
V-8. A counter-rotating balance shaft was employed to balance primary crank 
vibration. They have made millions of them and have it worked out all the 
small stuff over the last 20+ years. It feels like a V8 off the line and 
drinks gas like a V6 at speed.

best,

doug

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark" <mark at nashvilletn.org>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; "Spridgets" <spridgets at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3


> Thanks for all of the tips, we got the engine running like a champ and the
> vacation was saved.  It turned out to be a corroded plug on the ignition
> amplifier board that mounts on the side of the distributor.  Sometimes it
> would work and other times not.  We cleaned the "green" out and it fired
> right up.  We filled it with silicone grease so hopefully it won't do it
> again.  I won't be complaining about expensive parts again for a while, 
> the
> plug with 5 feet of wire is $70 and the ignition module is about $300. 
> Glad
> we didn't need either.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark" <mark at nashvilletn.org>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; "Spridgets" <spridgets at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 8:02 PM
> Subject: [Spridgets] Mercruiser 4.3
>
>
>
> My next-door neighbor just bought a 93 Sea Ray with a Mercruiser 4.3 V6
> engine.  He has had a heck of a time starting it but once he does get it
> running it runs good.  He called me tonight thinking that I might help 
> with
> the problem.  We centered on the electric choke and I think the problem is
> in the driver seat.  He doesn't have a manual so we don't know what the
> procedure should be.  It looks like the throttle should be disengaged from
> the shit mechanism with the unlock button below the engine control.  At 
> the
> first detent the choke seems to be free to move mechanically and if cold 
> the
> electric choke servo should move the choke butterfly.  Can anyone confirm
> what the starting sequence should be, are we getting warm?  It is a Alpha
> One Chevy based V6, 2 barrel carb with a Thunderbolt ignition.  I can't 
> seem
> to find anything on line about operating the engine.
>
> Help,  he is taking his family to the lake tomorrow evening for a long
> weekend.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Sep  6 22:31:07 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:31:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet again ... best OBD-II hardware/software package
 ...
In-Reply-To: <003801c91089$da256ea0$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
References: <01e601c91032$866bf100$6401a8c0@niolon>
	<003801c91089$da256ea0$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <48C3590B.9090608@xxiii.com>

Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I need to diagnose the Check Engine light on the wife's '97 BMW M3.

That means it's about to self destruct, fling metal everywhere and melt
down into a little puddle.

But I would gladly buy your M3 for slightly more than scrap value  :)

It is a 2 door manual, right?

   -Wayne

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Sun Sep  7 08:15:30 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:15:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3
In-Reply-To: <002101c91090$79ccf4e0$95347d80@B50SS>
References: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
	<18F7F6785FD746AEB3E47C06D263D95D@Dell9200>
	<002101c91090$79ccf4e0$95347d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <004c01c910f4$2fdd80c0$8f988240$@mele@usermail.com>

thanks for the note on this engine series;
I just now realized that I inherited one of these in an incomplete "S-10
drivetrain into a 1950 Jeepster" project; I"ll be studying more about it/
them at some point in the futre (about 4 car projects down the line...)

PM

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of old dirtbeard
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 10:22 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3

Dear Mark,

Is that the GM 4.3 V6 engine in marine mode?

I have an '03 GMC Savana cargo van with the 4.3L V6, and I think it is the 
best truck engine ever. It develops 260 ft/lbs of torque at 2,800 RPM and 
gets 20+ MPG on the highway. It is a torquey stump puller that sips gas. It 
just about the best engine I have owned.

It probably is one of GM's oldest engines, too, as it is a 90-degree V-6 
developed in the mid-1980s by removing two cylinders from GM 's small block 
V-8. A counter-rotating balance shaft was employed to balance primary crank 
vibration. They have made millions of them and have it worked out all the 
small stuff over the last 20+ years. It feels like a V8 off the line and 
drinks gas like a V6 at speed.

best,

doug

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sun Sep  7 09:38:03 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:38:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3
In-Reply-To: <-3050432866570239706@unknownmsgid>
References: <CDFFD8A321814195911BFA7B4DA2C544@Dell9200>
	<18F7F6785FD746AEB3E47C06D263D95D@Dell9200>
	<002101c91090$79ccf4e0$95347d80@B50SS>
	<-3050432866570239706@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0809070838y1826305ch8004789784662bd@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone needs one of these, I have a complete 4.3 CPI (Vin W)
drivetrain available for sale.  It comes with a 1994 S10 Blazer I have
been trying to get rid of.
http://www.johninnis.com/automobilia/Blazer/Blazer_for_sale/Blazer_for_sale.html

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Paul Mele <paul.mele at usermail.com> wrote:
> thanks for the note on this engine series;
> I just now realized that I inherited one of these in an incomplete "S-10
> drivetrain into a 1950 Jeepster" project; I"ll be studying more about it/
> them at some point in the futre (about 4 car projects down the line...)
>
> PM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
> Of old dirtbeard
> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 10:22 PM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mercruiser 4.3
>
> Dear Mark,
>
> Is that the GM 4.3 V6 engine in marine mode?
>
> I have an '03 GMC Savana cargo van with the 4.3L V6, and I think it is the
> best truck engine ever. It develops 260 ft/lbs of torque at 2,800 RPM and
> gets 20+ MPG on the highway. It is a torquey stump puller that sips gas. It
> just about the best engine I have owned.
>
> It probably is one of GM's oldest engines, too, as it is a 90-degree V-6
> developed in the mid-1980s by removing two cylinders from GM 's small block
> V-8. A counter-rotating balance shaft was employed to balance primary crank
> vibration. They have made millions of them and have it worked out all the
> small stuff over the last 20+ years. It feels like a V8 off the line and
> drinks gas like a V6 at speed.
>
> best,
>
> doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown =
=================================

From jwm at horde.net  Sun Sep  7 11:59:18 2008
From: jwm at horde.net (John Morrissey)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 13:59:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yet again ... best OBD-II hardware/software package
 ...
In-Reply-To: <003801c91089$da256ea0$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
References: <01e601c91032$866bf100$6401a8c0@niolon>
	<003801c91089$da256ea0$81a8a8c0@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <20080907175918.GA7366@boost.horde.net>

On Sat, Sep 06, 2008 at 08:34:19PM -0500, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> I need to diagnose the Check Engine light on the wife's '97 BMW M3.
> 
> Given the plethora of Wintel laptops I have lying around it would seem
> that getting the hardware and software to make one into a dedicated OBD-II
> reader would be the appropriate path.
> 
> It seems it has been about a year since this topic was discussed so ...
> what are the latest thoughs on the subject?

I haven't had a reason to buy a scan tool (yet), but I've heard really good
things about AutoEnginuity's tool from other BMW people:

http://www.autoenginuity.com

Their marque-specific support lets you initiate a lot of the BMW-specific
tests and procedures that the dealer's diagnostic computer can do, such as
hydraulic pump cycling.

If you're a BMW CCA member, there was an article in May 2006's Roundel.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they've posted issues that far back
on their web site yet:

http://www.bmwcca.org/index.php?pageid=roundel_magazine

john
-- 
John Morrissey          _o            /\         ----  __o
jwm at horde.net        _-< \_          /  \       ----  <  \,
www.horde.net/    __(_)/_(_)________/    \_______(_) /_(_)__

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Sun Sep  7 17:39:51 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 16:39:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood stove insert installation tool
Message-ID: <86705EB0631847F78E9BC5A163E12D66@Waynehouseputer>

Hello,



I have an older insert that we really like and I would like to install a
stainless chimney liner inside our existing masonry/tile chimney (which is
still in great shape).



In researching this install it has become evident that I need to modify the
stove outlet, which I can do with some simple fabrication and welding.
Modification will result in the stove having a 6 flue vent collar like all
the new stoves have. This will allow attaching either the stainless liner
directly to the stove or through the use of an appliance connector which are
designed for such situations.



The second thing is there is precious little room/clearance to fasten the
connector to the stove once the stove is in place. There is 1.125 of
clearance between the top of the stove and the top of the fireplace opening.
There is a little less than 5 on either side of the stove when it is in
place, but that 5 is a bit deceiving as the fireplace box tapers narrow in
the back. I can get part of my forearm in there but I cant access the top
of the stove near the collar.



The idea is to have the liner all installed and the connector hovering just
above where the stove collar will be, then place the stove in the hole. The
trick will be trying to get the connector down over the stove collar, and
then use some sort of combination of < drive extensions and flex joints to
try and put the two fasteners in that secures the connector to the stove
collar.



Im hoping I can get the connector down over the stove collar using my sons
skinny arms and various tools like a very long shafted screwdriver. We will
see once the stove is set in place but I have a feeling this method will be
just wishful thinking.



I may have to go into the stove and come up through the stove opening/collar
to grasp the connector/liner end and pull it down over the stove collar.
This stove is quite deep and even though I have pretty long arms I wont be
able to actually get my hand up through the collar. I can get my hand back
to the stove flue vent opening and partially into the opening if I jam my
shoulder into the door opening on the stove.



So Im wondering about a tool that could be made or purchased that I could
poke up through the stoves flue vent opening and into the liner, then pull
the liner down over the flue vent collar on the stove. Im thinking
something like the old style black bulb toilet tank floats, something that
could be inserted into the liner opening past the end of the liner and then
inflated with air such that it expanded a bit against the interior of the
liner. Then pull the liner down over the collar and deflate and remove the
tool.



What type of tool could be made or purchased that would grasp the interior
of the liner above the end of the liner and used to pull the liner down over
the stove flue vent collar?



Thanks

Wayne

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Mon Sep  8 07:45:56 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:45:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wood stove insert installation tool
In-Reply-To: <86705EB0631847F78E9BC5A163E12D66@Waynehouseputer>
References: <86705EB0631847F78E9BC5A163E12D66@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <48C52C94.40501@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Wayne,

No matter what tool/jig you come up with, I recommend that you be able 
to see what you are doing. If you don't have a small camera for your 
computer, buy one, as well as some lighting that can be put in the fire 
box, or on top of the stove so you can see what you are doing and how 
the alignment of the flue to the collar is going. I've wrenched many a 
job while only being able to feel my way, including deciding what size 
socket or wrench I need, without being able to see the fastener, but now 
I use a cheap fixed focus camera that I use quite a bit to see how 
things are, like a leaky water pump on a full-size van where you can 
hardly see anything under the hood. My camera is very stained from shop 
use and resides in the top of my tool box where I can get to it fast.

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake cornerexit:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I have an older insert that we really like and I would like to install a
> stainless chimney liner inside our existing masonry/tile chimney (which is
> still in great shape).
>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.18/1658 - Release Date: 9/7/2008 3:30 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 09:57:59 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 08:57:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
Message-ID: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>

It's about time to clean out my dryer vent hose I suppose. I keep hearing
how the flexible vinyl/foil hose is prone to lint trappage and potential
fire hazards, and that ridged vent pipe is better. Our electric dryer uses
this flex hose and I'm wondering about changing it over to ridged vent pipe.


 

The dryer vent connection is on the back at the bottom. The house vent hole
is about two and a half feet up the wall and is in the wall that is directly
behind the dryer. The house vent exhaust is straight through the wall
(exterior wall) and has a downward pointing vent cover which vents the
lint/dust directly on to my deck...

 

The dryer is not accessible from either side as it is in a slot so to speak
between the washer on the right and the counter on the left. The dryer gets
pulled away from the wall for cleaning and such. The flexible vent hose
works well in this situation as the dryer can be pulled away from the wall,
the hose connected, and the dryer pushed back in position. While pushing the
dryer back into position I do try to make sure the flexible vent hose is not
kinked and routed in the least restrictive way possible.

 

What kind of dryer vent hose do you have? How does one connect a ridged vent
pipe in a situation such as mine?????

 

Thanks

Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 11:24:55 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:24:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
In-Reply-To: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>
References: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809081024o50772765va7ed22200133ae01@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:57 AM, cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's about time to clean out my dryer vent hose I suppose. I keep hearing
> how the flexible vinyl/foil hose is prone to lint trappage and potential
> fire hazards, and that ridged vent pipe is better. Our electric dryer uses
> this flex hose and I'm wondering about changing it over to ridged vent pipe.
>
>
>
>
> The dryer vent connection is on the back at the bottom. The house vent hole
> is about two and a half feet up the wall and is in the wall that is directly
> behind the dryer. The house vent exhaust is straight through the wall
> (exterior wall) and has a downward pointing vent cover which vents the
> lint/dust directly on to my deck...
>
>
>
> The dryer is not accessible from either side as it is in a slot so to speak
> between the washer on the right and the counter on the left. The dryer gets
> pulled away from the wall for cleaning and such. The flexible vent hose
> works well in this situation as the dryer can be pulled away from the wall,
> the hose connected, and the dryer pushed back in position. While pushing the
> dryer back into position I do try to make sure the flexible vent hose is not
> kinked and routed in the least restrictive way possible.
>
>
>
> What kind of dryer vent hose do you have? How does one connect a ridged vent
> pipe in a situation such as mine?????
>

With a dryer that's not in a fixed position, with access to the back,
it's pretty tough to use only a rigid pipe.  Use as short a piece of
flexible hose as you can, and use a good quality hose.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  8 12:04:49 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:04:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Notching rafters for purlins?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1220810402.14533.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <852746.75820.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Thanks for all the suggestions!

I looked them over, and went with Jon's:
>Would you happen to have 24-inch centers? I'd use Simpson Strong-Ties
>truss braces instead of notching and purlins.
>http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/catalogs/c-hw05-r/C-HW05-R-07.pdf Much
>simpler, faster and stronger. Cheap too. You can get them in bulk for
>about $1.70 each.

I picked up a bunch of them at the local lumber yard, and put them in with some #8 wafer head screws (?) I bought at the same time.  Those things went up fast, and using a power drill instead of a hammer meant I could start early without waking anyone up.  That was a great suggestion!

After this project, I don't know why I haven't gone to these guys instead of HomeDepot/Lowe's before.  Their hours are shorter (i.e only open till 5), but they know what they are talking about, their lumber is so much better, their yard guys help you pick/sort through it, they have better availability (including 16' posts not even found at HD/Lowe's), and their prices are better.  What more could you ask for?


>Hi all,
>I have a set of 2x6 rafters (25) that I need to notch for some 2x2 >purlins.  There are 6 purlins per rafter, so a lot of notching....
>The only way I'm aware of to make these notches is to saw a number of >closely spaced slots, then knock out the "fingers", and use a chisel to >clean up the groove.
>Is there a better way to do this, given the number of notches required?  >I have just basic hand and power tools (circ saw, jigsaw, router); no >table saw or anything else like that.  Any ideas appreciated!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Sep  8 13:03:30 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
In-Reply-To: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <131036.6929.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Probably the best idea would be to replace the hose
with a 100% metal flexible one.  I think they don't
even sell the vinyl/metal ones any more.

A rigid pipe (is that what you mean by "ridged"?) is a
pain in the ass when you have to move the dryer.

Also the flexible hoses are cheap enough that you can
simply replace them every couple of years, instead of
going through a lot of trouble cleaning them.
It's definitely cheaper to buy a new hose instead of
one of those "as seen on TV" vent cleaning kits...

Doug


--- cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's about time to clean out my dryer vent hose I
> suppose. I keep hearing
> how the flexible vinyl/foil hose is prone to lint
> trappage and potential
> fire hazards, and that ridged vent pipe is better.
> Our electric dryer uses
> this flex hose and I'm wondering about changing it
> over to ridged vent pipe.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> The dryer vent connection is on the back at the
> bottom. The house vent hole
> is about two and a half feet up the wall and is in
> the wall that is directly
> behind the dryer. The house vent exhaust is straight
> through the wall
> (exterior wall) and has a downward pointing vent
> cover which vents the
> lint/dust directly on to my deck...
> 
>  
> 
> The dryer is not accessible from either side as it
> is in a slot so to speak
> between the washer on the right and the counter on
> the left. The dryer gets
> pulled away from the wall for cleaning and such. The
> flexible vent hose
> works well in this situation as the dryer can be
> pulled away from the wall,
> the hose connected, and the dryer pushed back in
> position. While pushing the
> dryer back into position I do try to make sure the
> flexible vent hose is not
> kinked and routed in the least restrictive way
> possible.
> 
>  
> 
> What kind of dryer vent hose do you have? How does
> one connect a ridged vent
> pipe in a situation such as mine?????
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  8 13:04:05 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
Message-ID: <6439.21031.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

On my list of things to do is clean the dryer pipe at a
friends house.  It exits from behind the dryer using a short flex 
hose to a short hard pipe though the drywall. From that short
pipe it goes vertical to inside roof. Then slanted vertical to 
the outside roof. Right now as part of the troubleshooting, 
a small length of flex hose exits to a 5 gallon bucket of water. 
The short length of pipe that I've been able to look at had lots
of built up lint, so I doubt that it would be any better than flex 
pipe. It was smooth inside compared to the corrogated flex 
hose, which IMO, had less build up than pipe. I don't know 
how long it has been since it was cleaned, but before I put 
the shop vac to it, The lint build up was about 1/2 inch thick 
in the pipe and less in the flex hose. I'm waiting another month
or two before I tackle the hard pipe in the roof. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


----- Original Message ----
From: cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com>
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, September 8, 2008 11:57:59 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?

(snip)
The dryer is not accessible from either side as it is in a slot so to speak
between the washer on the right and the counter on the left. The dryer gets
pulled away from the wall for cleaning and such. The flexible vent hose
works well in this situation as the dryer can be pulled away from the wall,
the hose connected, and the dryer pushed back in position. While pushing the
dryer back into position I do try to make sure the flexible vent hose is not
kinked and routed in the least restrictive way possible.
(SNIP)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 13:22:54 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:22:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
In-Reply-To: <6439.21031.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <6439.21031.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809081222n160e579dt29aad9ffe473f721@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On my list of things to do is clean the dryer pipe at a
> friends house.  It exits from behind the dryer using a short flex
> hose to a short hard pipe though the drywall. From that short
> pipe it goes vertical to inside roof. Then slanted vertical to
> the outside roof. Right now as part of the troubleshooting,
> a small length of flex hose exits to a 5 gallon bucket of water.
> The short length of pipe that I've been able to look at had lots
> of built up lint, so I doubt that it would be any better than flex
> pipe. It was smooth inside compared to the corrogated flex
> hose, which IMO, had less build up than pipe. I don't know
> how long it has been since it was cleaned, but before I put
> the shop vac to it, The lint build up was about 1/2 inch thick
> in the pipe and less in the flex hose. I'm waiting another month
> or two before I tackle the hard pipe in the roof.
>

The problem is that the exhaust loses energy as moves around the bends
and lengths of the pipe.  Until a few months ago, our dryer was
against the west side of an interior wall.  The vent was a piece of
flex hose, to the wall.  then up between the studs of the wall.  It
made a 90 degree bend to run east between two joists for about six
feet, then another 90 degree bend to run north for about ten feet, to
the exterior wall.  The dryer has never worked well, and the laundry
room has always been full of dust.  I discovered that the joint
between the flex hose and the run in the wall was an elbow that wasn't
actually attached to the pipe in the wall.  (I think it was when it
was new, though.)  the whole length of the pipe was plugged with lint,
the space between the studs in the wall as well.  We moved the dryer
to be on the wall with the exterior vent.  The piping is now about 10
feet of good quality flexible piping, taped with good aluminum ducting
tape (not duck tape, eh?) and the laundry room is so much cleaner, you
don't sneeze walking in, and the dryer actually does something.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Sep  8 18:21:59 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:21:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
In-Reply-To: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>
References: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <411F4270D818473C8B101FF87C771D2F@jdnet.deere.com>

> What kind of dryer vent hose do you have? How does one connect a ridged
> vent
> pipe in a situation such as mine?????

In my case, the dryer installation instructions warn not to use plastic vent
within 24" of the (gas) dryer.  Seems unlikely to be a problem to me, since
the same air that heats the exhaust is going through your clothes, and
hopefully they aren't getting hot enough to melt plastic.  

But I put a metal elbow on the dryer outlet and 24" of metal vent, held
together with large hose clamps.  The metal line runs behind the hot water
heater, where it joins with the usual flexible plastic line that runs
through the wall and into the (unheated) garage.

To pull the dryer out for cleaning or service, I kind of rotate it so it
pulls on the plastic, then push it back.  So far (about 20 years), lint
buildup in the line has not been a problem.

Lint in the garage was kind of a mess, so I stuck a pair of ladies nylon
pantyhose on the end of the vent.  Every few years I pull off the nearly
full pantyhose and replace them.

At least so far, the clerk at the grocery store has never wondered why I buy
queen-size pantyhose, when my wife is definitely petite <G>

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Sep  9 09:20:39 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 11:20:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

So this kids toy for my son has a steering stop that I'd like to modify. 
I go to take off the front wheel/fork assemby deal and...

Recessed Triangular screw heads.

WTF?

Anyway, does anyone know of a local place I can probably pick up one of 
these things?

McMaster has bits it looks like, on page 2773, sizes TA18, TA20, TA23, and 
TA27.

But I'd rather not order something if I can just walk in and buy a set or 
whatever.

Thanks!

Mark

(I'd like to meet the guy that came up with this one, mostly just so I can 
punch him in the nose.)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep  9 09:41:57 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 08:41:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20080909154200.ENZU26261.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Anyway, does anyone know of a local place I can probably pick 
> up one of these things?

Sure, Lovelady Hardware in Torrance will likely have them.

Well, you didn't say local to who/where ...

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Sep  9 09:59:43 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 11:59:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809090859k74d11f5dk37c6d1711260b0e4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> So this kids toy for my son has a steering stop that I'd like to modify.
> I go to take off the front wheel/fork assemby deal and...
>
> Recessed Triangular screw heads.
>
> WTF?
>
> Anyway, does anyone know of a local place I can probably pick up one of
> these things?
>
> McMaster has bits it looks like, on page 2773, sizes TA18, TA20, TA23, and
> TA27.
>
> But I'd rather not order something if I can just walk in and buy a set or
> whatever.

Got an industrial fastener place around?  I got to say, though, I've
seen lots of weird heads, but never one like that.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  9 10:44:51 2008
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 09:44:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <48C6A803.6060004@earthlink.net>

I had the right one in a set of 32 "security" bits, part number 93388, 
from my local Harbor Freight for $4.99 on sale.  It was for a Easter 
bunny toy that broke.  It also includes 3 blade philips type tips and 
Torx bits with a hole in the center, used to replace a fuse in the 
microwave.

Brian

Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> So this kids toy for my son has a steering stop that I'd like to modify. 
> I go to take off the front wheel/fork assemby deal and...
>
> Recessed Triangular screw heads.
>
> WTF?
>
> Anyway, does anyone know of a local place I can probably pick up one of 
> these things?
>
> McMaster has bits it looks like, on page 2773, sizes TA18, TA20, TA23, and 
> TA27.
>
> But I'd rather not order something if I can just walk in and buy a set or 
> whatever.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
>
> (I'd like to meet the guy that came up with this one, mostly just so I can 
> punch him in the nose.)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Sep  9 11:21:57 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:21:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <752985.8853.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

McDonald's Happy Meal toys always use little screws of
this style, but probably a lot smaller then the ones
you have.

I think you need to take a Dremel to an old
screwdriver to make the tool you need.

BTW, McDonald's Happy Meal toys always use little
screws of this style, but probably a lot smaller then
the ones you have.

Doug

--- Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:

> Howdy,
> 
> So this kids toy for my son has a steering stop that
> I'd like to modify. 
> I go to take off the front wheel/fork assemby deal
> and...
> 
> Recessed Triangular screw heads.
> 
> WTF?
> 
> Anyway, does anyone know of a local place I can
> probably pick up one of 
> these things?
> 
> McMaster has bits it looks like, on page 2773, sizes
> TA18, TA20, TA23, and 
> TA27.
> 
> But I'd rather not order something if I can just
> walk in and buy a set or 
> whatever.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark
> 
> (I'd like to meet the guy that came up with this
> one, mostly just so I can 
> punch him in the nose.)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Sep  9 12:05:03 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 14:05:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <48C6A803.6060004@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48C6A803.6060004@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091403500.772@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008, Brian Kemp wrote:
> I had the right one in a set of 32 "security" bits, part number 93388, 
> from my local Harbor Freight for $4.99 on sale.  It was for a Easter 
> bunny toy that broke.  It also includes 3 blade philips type tips and 
> Torx bits with a hole in the center, used to replace a fuse in the 
> microwave.

I've got that set... Two problems...

First, it doesn't have the full triangle recessed bit.

Second, the 3 bladed "phillips" bit probably would work, except that its 
not long enought to get down the recessed hole the screw is in, without 
the holder hitting the sides of hole.

Mark

From nases at verizon.net  Tue Sep  9 12:07:49 2008
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 14:07:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
References: <A21B7EB7-E546-4983-9C7B-56D5A3F2ADDC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>

> I need to attach an electric fuel pump to a 1960 AH Sprite.  The  
> area I would like to use on the car is a boxed section in front of  
> the rear axle.  I can't get inside to use a nut on the bolt.
>
> Any suggestions on what type of fastener to use to secure it  
> firmly?  The Facet pump came with two self tapping 1/4 x 28 or 32  
> tpi screws.  Will that hold it well enough on thin sheet metal?
>
> I will also need to use some sort of shock absorption behind it,  
> possible just some thin rubber like a grommet?
>
> Phil Nase
> Quakertown, PA
> http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Sep  9 12:41:48 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 14:41:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
In-Reply-To: <7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
References: <A21B7EB7-E546-4983-9C7B-56D5A3F2ADDC@gmail.com>
	<7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091440010.2334@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I'd probably use a nut-sert / rivet nut.

Check out page 3213 at http://www.mcmaster.com/

They're available all over the place.

Mark


On Tue, 9 Sep 2008, Phil Nase wrote:

>> I need to attach an electric fuel pump to a 1960 AH Sprite.  The
>> area I would like to use on the car is a boxed section in front of
>> the rear axle.  I can't get inside to use a nut on the bolt.
>>
>> Any suggestions on what type of fastener to use to secure it
>> firmly?  The Facet pump came with two self tapping 1/4 x 28 or 32
>> tpi screws.  Will that hold it well enough on thin sheet metal?
>>
>> I will also need to use some sort of shock absorption behind it,
>> possible just some thin rubber like a grommet?
>>
>> Phil Nase
>> Quakertown, PA
>> http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Sep  9 12:42:34 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:42:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091403500.772@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48C6A803.6060004@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091403500.772@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809091142y6d06e413q13c285091d73d844@mail.gmail.com>

*Don't ya hate it when a manufactured does stuff like weird fastners . . ya
gotta think it's an attempt to trhwart repairs so one will go buy a new one
. . . or something.*
**
*My favorite was a Krupp coffee maker with a very unique oval button head
screw, no slots,  buried in a deep recess . . I ground the sides off an old
Chinese nut driver and made it work . . just to beat Krupp. *
*Tony*

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Sep  9 12:50:15 2008
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:50:15 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
In-Reply-To: <7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
References: <A21B7EB7-E546-4983-9C7B-56D5A3F2ADDC@gmail.com>
	<7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <48C6C567.9070209@landform.co.uk>

Phil Nase wrote:
>> I need to attach an electric fuel pump to a 1960 AH Sprite.  The  
>> area I would like to use on the car is a boxed section in front of  
>> the rear axle.  I can't get inside to use a nut on the bolt.
>>
>> Any suggestions on what type of fastener to use to secure it  
>> firmly?  The Facet pump came with two self tapping 1/4 x 28 or 32  
>> tpi screws.  Will that hold it well enough on thin sheet metal?
>>
>> I will also need to use some sort of shock absorption behind it,  
>> possible just some thin rubber like a grommet?
>>     
> Phil,
You might look at Rawlnuts:

http://www.vjtechnology.com/images/item_TechnicalDataPDF/TD00300010.PDF

The M4 (4100) would be more than up to your job. I don't know if the 
product is sold under the same name in the US but I imagine there is an 
equivalent.

Nick Brearley

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep  9 13:10:43 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 12:10:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
In-Reply-To: <7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
References: <A21B7EB7-E546-4983-9C7B-56D5A3F2ADDC@gmail.com>
	<7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8CC6ADAD4DE7461183FD0B0022B40999@jdnet.deere.com>

> > Any suggestions on what type of fastener to use to secure it
> > firmly?

I will ditto the suggestion to use the blind nut inserts
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94100

>  The Facet pump came with two self tapping 1/4 x 28 or 32
> > tpi screws.  Will that hold it well enough on thin sheet metal?

IMO, no, not for the long term; at least not if your Sprite shakes anything
like my TR3A on rough roads.

> > I will also need to use some sort of shock absorption behind it,
> > possible just some thin rubber like a grommet?

Takes more than just rubber behind it, IMO.  That still leaves the bolt as
direct metal-to-metal contact, which combined with the amplifying effect of
a flat piece of sheet metal will still leave an annoying noise.

What I did was cut a small bracket from strap steel, and drilled it for
rubber grommets and flat washers for both the bolts into the car, and the
bolts into the pump.  Since the grommets protrude on both sides of the
bracket, there is no metal-to-metal between either the pump and bracket, or
the bracket and the body.  The result is that I cannot hear the pump at all,
unless I stick my head in the trunk.

There are fancier soft mounts available that would likely work just as well
(search MMC for "vibration mounts"), but the above took only 1/2 hour or so
to fabricate from parts on hand, and worked out well, IMO.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Sep  9 13:32:54 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 12:32:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
In-Reply-To: <7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
References: <A21B7EB7-E546-4983-9C7B-56D5A3F2ADDC@gmail.com>
	<7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <48C6CF66.8080302@dimebank.com>

Phil Nase wrote:
>> I need to attach an electric fuel pump to a 1960 AH Sprite.  The  
>> area I would like to use on the car is a boxed section in front of  
>> the rear axle.  I can't get inside to use a nut on the bolt.

This is exactly what riv-nuts are for. A good local hardware store should be 
able to sell you a few fasteners and the simple handtool required to install 
them (that is, you don't necessarily need the adapted pop-rivet gun).

>> Any suggestions on what type of fastener to use to secure it  
>> firmly?  The Facet pump came with two self tapping 1/4 x 28 or 32  
>> tpi screws.  Will that hold it well enough on thin sheet metal?
>>
>> I will also need to use some sort of shock absorption behind it,  
>> possible just some thin rubber like a grommet?

Facet makes a mounting kit for exactly this purpose - two rubber blocks, each of 
which has two studs molded in. One stud goes into the hole you make, one mounts 
the pump.

Using this kind of mounting is important for the life of the pump.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  9 22:40:55 2008
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 21:40:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091403500.772@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48C6A803.6060004@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091403500.772@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <48C74FD7.3070009@earthlink.net>

Mark - Sorry about the mix up on the part number.  The bit I was talking 
about is just like a square drive bit, but with 3 sides.  My set is in a 
red rubber type case just like the one for 93388, but was purchased a 
few years ago.  The easiest thing might be hitting a cheap screwdriver 
with a bench grinder to make your own since a bit isn't long enough even 
if you had one.

Brian

Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> On Tue, 9 Sep 2008, Brian Kemp wrote:
>   
>> I had the right one in a set of 32 "security" bits, part number 93388, 
>> from my local Harbor Freight for $4.99 on sale.  It was for a Easter 
>> bunny toy that broke.  It also includes 3 blade philips type tips and 
>> Torx bits with a hole in the center, used to replace a fuse in the 
>> microwave.
>>     
>
> I've got that set... Two problems...
>
> First, it doesn't have the full triangle recessed bit.
>
> Second, the 3 bladed "phillips" bit probably would work, except that its 
> not long enought to get down the recessed hole the screw is in, without 
> the holder hitting the sides of hole.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From nases at verizon.net  Wed Sep 10 06:53:19 2008
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:53:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
In-Reply-To: <7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
References: <A21B7EB7-E546-4983-9C7B-56D5A3F2ADDC@gmail.com>
	<7DF33353-1978-455E-A2F2-2E97F811F648@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AD1CE23B-457F-4293-9E39-F4D53BA31852@verizon.net>

Thanks for all the advice you guys.  Hopefully this weekend I'll get  
it installed.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Sep 9, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Phil Nase wrote:

>> I need to attach an electric fuel pump to a 1960 AH Sprite.  The
>> area I would like to use on the car is a boxed section in front of
>> the rear axle.  I can't get inside to use a nut on the bolt.
>>
>> Any suggestions on what type of fastener to use to secure it
>> firmly?  The Facet pump came with two self tapping 1/4 x 28 or 32
>> tpi screws.  Will that hold it well enough on thin sheet metal?
>>
>> I will also need to use some sort of shock absorption behind it,
>> possible just some thin rubber like a grommet?
>>
>> Phil Nase
>> Quakertown, PA
>> http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Wed Sep 10 18:41:42 2008
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:41:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
References: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <FAC09BB414014938B60C4DEF3779BBE5@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, Wayne,

    Have you thought about using a periscope?  You can see a picture of one 
at: 
http://www.repairclinic.com/SmartSearch/SSPartDetail.aspx?PartID=2530&PPStack=1

    In the picture the input and the exit are on the same side, you can just 
slide the two pieces apart and reverse one of them to get the exit on the 
opposite side as the input (or at least you could on the one I bought - not 
sure about this one from the picture).  I was wondering if you could pull 
your dryer out, clamp the periscope to the back of the dryer, slide the 
dryer in, reach over behind the dryer and pull the outlet to line up with 
the pipe that goes thru the wall.  From what your description this doesn't 
sound like it will work but I thought I'd throw out the idea just in case.

    Another part might be: 
http://www.repairclinic.com/SmartSearch/SSPartDetail.aspx?PartID=1399354&PPStack=1

    I use one of these periscope items on my dryer.  However, I just use the 
part that attaches to the dryer which give me a short depth 90 degree turn 
to the side and I have it attached to the metal flex line that connects to 
the rigid pipe that runs under the house to the exterior wall exit.  In my 
situation I have to pull the washer out, climb behind it to attach the 
periscope piece to the dryer, climb back out, and push the washer back. 
>From your description you also have your washer next to your dryer - could 
you do this?  (Yes, I heartily agree that it's a pain but I rationalize it 
as being necessary so I can avoid having too much flex pipe.

    Good luck!

Mark Watson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cornerexit" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
To: "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:57 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?


<snip>
> The dryer vent connection is on the back at the bottom. The house vent 
> hole
> is about two and a half feet up the wall and is in the wall that is 
> directly
> behind the dryer. The house vent exhaust is straight through the wall
> (exterior wall) and has a downward pointing vent cover which vents the
> lint/dust directly on to my deck...
>
>
>
> The dryer is not accessible from either side as it is in a slot so to 
> speak
> between the washer on the right and the counter on the left. The dryer 
> gets
> pulled away from the wall for cleaning and such. The flexible vent hose
> works well in this situation as the dryer can be pulled away from the 
> wall,
> the hose connected, and the dryer pushed back in position. While pushing 
> the
> dryer back into position I do try to make sure the flexible vent hose is 
> not
> kinked and routed in the least restrictive way possible.
>
> What kind of dryer vent hose do you have? How does one connect a ridged 
> vent
> pipe in a situation such as mine?????
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Wed Sep 10 19:03:17 2008
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:03:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?
References: <389C7D155D0A4FA5B338EC43C32F625A@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <7F2D3EB0683E45EE93B7E65334509A5F@watsongxpejt9r>

Wayne,

    Message #2 on this:    While I was looking around some other sites I saw 
this page: 
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/overview/0,,20055319,00.html

    If you look at the left-hand picture it looks like what you're 
describing, right?  What I was suggesting with the periscope is exactly what 
is shown there.

Mark Watson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cornerexit" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
To: "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:57 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dryer vents?


> It's about time to clean out my dryer vent hose I suppose. I keep hearing
<snip>

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep 11 10:32:53 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
Message-ID: <348433.25966.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My son received a free 1993 El Dorado North Star 32 valve Cadillac recently
with 122,000 miles on it.  The car sat idle for almost a year although it was
started periodically.  We drove it home the three miles with no problems. 
After having it for a few weeks and starting it every other day it started to
put out white smoke  immediately upon starting and then gets less and less but
never disappearing completely as things heated up.
 
I was always under the impression that white smoke meant a water leak,  blue
smoke meant excess oil and black smoke meant a rich mixture.  Is this true?


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From gpd4 at juno.com  Thu Sep 11 10:42:02 2008
From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:42:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
Message-ID: <20080911.124202.1984.2.gpd4@juno.com>

Yes.  Indicative of a head gasket leak probably.  Is it running hot
and/or using coolant.  Any milkiness on the dipstick to indicate water
and oil mixing?
 
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> writes:
> My son received a free 1993 El Dorado North Star 32 valve Cadillac 
> recently
> with 122,000 miles on it.  The car sat idle for almost a year 
> although it was
> started periodically.  We drove it home the three miles with no 
> problems. 
> After having it for a few weeks and starting it every other day it 
> started to
> put out white smoke  immediately upon starting and then gets less 
> and less but
> never disappearing completely as things heated up.
>  
> I was always under the impression that white smoke meant a water 
> leak,  blue
> smoke meant excess oil and black smoke meant a rich mixture.  Is 
> this true?
> 
> 
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
All is not lost! Click now for professional data recovery.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ni7fQWK75pRB80Zcqw77qSO4mutWCVzVgie3be5oQJl6Hh8/

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Sep 11 10:45:10 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:45:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
In-Reply-To: <348433.25966.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <348433.25966.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7E4863BD-E616-4BCA-BFD0-01767A05248C@groupwbench.org>

On Sep 11, 2008, at 12:32 PM, Frank Vantacich wrote:

> My son received a free 1993 El Dorado North Star 32 valve Cadillac  
> recently
> with 122,000 miles on it.  The car sat idle for almost a year  
> although it was
> started periodically.  We drove it home the three miles with no  
> problems.
> After having it for a few weeks and starting it every other day it  
> started to
> put out white smoke  immediately upon starting and then gets less  
> and less but
> never disappearing completely as things heated up.
>
> I was always under the impression that white smoke meant a water  
> leak,  blue
> smoke meant excess oil and black smoke meant a rich mixture.  Is  
> this true?


That is true, though I have seen some very light blue smoke when oil  
burns. The smell gives it away.

Can you open the cooling system resevoir (before it's hot enough to  
build pressure) and see if there are bubbles being generated? Sounds  
like you might have a blown head gasket, and a cylinder is sucking in  
water as it cools down.

jim

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep 11 11:07:18 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:07:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
In-Reply-To: <20080911.124202.1984.2.gpd4@juno.com>
Message-ID: <156583.78638.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Temperature appears normal, no milkyness in the oil.  I will keep my eye on
the radiator overflow container for loss of fluid and bubbles.  I have never
found the actual radiator cap, just the overflow container.
 
One other thing I failed to mention earlier is the the white smoke has a sweet
smell to it.
 
Thanks for the help.


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

--- On Thu, 9/11/08, George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com> wrote:

From: George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
To: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:42 AM

Yes.  Indicative of a head gasket leak probably.  Is it running hot
and/or using coolant.  Any milkiness on the dipstick to indicate water
and oil mixing?

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> writes:
> My son received a free 1993 El Dorado North Star 32 valve Cadillac
> recently
> with 122,000 miles on it.  The car sat idle for almost a year
> although it was
> started periodically.  We drove it home the three miles with no
> problems.
> After having it for a few weeks and starting it every other day it
> started to
> put out white smoke  immediately upon starting and then gets less
> and less but
> never disappearing completely as things heated up.
>
> I was always under the impression that white smoke meant a water
> leak,  blue
> smoke meant excess oil and black smoke meant a rich mixture.  Is
> this true?
>
>
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Free quote and debt consolidation information.  Click Here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2XhqiQ7HJv9T3hwaIakq19GPU
kxOqFUPbzwdAuKtvGTgMQ/

From gpd4 at juno.com  Thu Sep 11 11:33:00 2008
From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:33:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
Message-ID: <20080911.133300.1984.4.gpd4@juno.com>

Definitely antifreeze with a sweet smell.  Since your initial cost is
little, I would immediately dump a can or two of Bars Leak or similar
into it and see what happens.  I have sealed some amazing leaks with that
stuff, and you have zero to lose other than the cost of the stuff.

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> writes:
Temperature appears normal, no milkyness in the oil.  I will keep my eye
on the radiator overflow container for loss of fluid and bubbles.  I have
never found the actual radiator cap, just the overflow container.
 
One other thing I failed to mention earlier is the the white smoke has a
sweet smell to it.
 
Thanks for the help.


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net


--- On Thu, 9/11/08, George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com> wrote:

From: George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
To: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:42 AM


Yes.  Indicative of a head gasket leak probably.  Is it running hot
and/or using coolant.  Any milkiness on the dipstick to indicate water
and oil mixing?
 
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> writes:
> My son received a free 1993 El Dorado North Star 32 valve Cadillac 
> recently
> with 122,000 miles on it.  The car sat idle for almost a year 
> although it was
> started periodically.  We drove it home the three miles with no 
> problems. 
> After having it for a few weeks and starting it every other day it 
> started to
> put out white smoke  immediately upon starting and then gets less 
> and less but
> never disappearing completely as things heated up.
>  
> I was always under the impression that white smoke meant a water 
> leak,  blue
> smoke meant excess oil and black smoke meant a rich mixture.  Is 
> this true?
> 
> 
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
Free quote and debt consolidation information.  Click Here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2XhqiQ7HJv9T3hwaIakq1
9GPUkxOqFUPbzwdAuKtvGTgMQ/

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Sep 11 11:35:53 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:35:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
In-Reply-To: <156583.78638.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20080911.124202.1984.2.gpd4@juno.com>
	<156583.78638.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809111035p4158f6cfk26aa5ab581c7c442@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Temperature appears normal, no milkyness in the oil.  I will keep my eye on
> the radiator overflow container for loss of fluid and bubbles.  I have never
> found the actual radiator cap, just the overflow container.
>
> One other thing I failed to mention earlier is the the white smoke has a sweet
> smell to it.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>

Sweet smell is coolant.  It's very hard for coolant to get into the
oil in the Northstar engine (it's a design feature.), so it's not
likely you'd be able to see it.  Northstar engines, particularly the
early ones, leak coolant.  There were also head gasket problems with
the first few years of production.

pressure test the cooling system, and get someone to test the coolant
for combusion gases.  If you replace the head gasket(s), also replace
the intake gaskets, and be aware that GM revised the bolts and the
torque procedure.  (It's a torque to this, then add so many degrees
thing now.  I don't know it, though.)  There's also a manditory
coolant leak sealer, as well.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep 11 11:56:48 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
In-Reply-To: <20080911.133300.1984.4.gpd4@juno.com>
Message-ID: <182116.63989.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A can or two of Bars Leak sounds like a wise inexpessive thing to try.  I
would like to be able to pour it in the radiator itself and not the overflow
container though.  So where is the radiator cap located on the radiator?  I
can't believe I am asking this question? I'm baffled.
 
Thanks again for all of your responses. 


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

--- On Thu, 9/11/08, George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com> wrote:

From: George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
To: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 10:33 AM



Definitely antifreeze with a sweet smell.  Since your initial cost is little,
I would immediately dump a can or two of Bars Leak or similar into it and see
what happens.  I have sealed some amazing leaks with that stuff, and you have
zero to lose other than the cost of the stuff.
 
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> writes:





Temperature appears normal, no milkyness in the oil.  I will keep my eye on
the radiator overflow container for loss of fluid and bubbles.  I have never
found the actual radiator cap, just the overflow container.
 
One other thing I failed to mention earlier is the the white smoke has a sweet
smell to it.
 
Thanks for the help.


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

--- On Thu, 9/11/08, George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com> wrote:

From: George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
To: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:42 AM

Yes.  Indicative of a head gasket leak probably.  Is it running hot
and/or using coolant.  Any milkiness on the dipstick to indicate water
and oil mixing?

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> writes:
> My son received a free 1993 El Dorado North Star 32 valve Cadillac
> recently
> with 122,000 miles on it.  The car sat idle for almost a year
> although it was
> started periodically.  We drove it home the three miles with no
> problems.
> After having it for a few weeks and starting it every other day it
> started to
> put out white smoke  immediately upon starting and then gets less
> and less but
> never disappearing completely as things heated up.
>
> I was always under the impression that white smoke meant a water
> leak,  blue
> smoke meant excess oil and black smoke meant a rich mixture.  Is
> this true?
>
>
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Free quote and debt consolidation information.  Click Here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2XhqiQ7HJv9T3hwaIakq19GPU
kxOqFUPbzwdAuKtvGTgMQ/

 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Sep 11 12:01:34 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:01:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
In-Reply-To: <182116.63989.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20080911.133300.1984.4.gpd4@juno.com>
	<182116.63989.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809111101r18dc69b9s6e097c0308de5ff4@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> A can or two of Bars Leak sounds like a wise inexpessive thing to try.  I
> would like to be able to pour it in the radiator itself and not the overflow
> container though.  So where is the radiator cap located on the radiator?  I
> can't believe I am asking this question? I'm baffled.

If I remember right (been years since I've worked on one of these),
there isn't one.  The factory sealant is a tablet-like thing that goes
into the upper radiator hose.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Sep 11 12:05:40 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:05:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] smoking 1993 El Dorado
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40809111035p4158f6cfk26aa5ab581c7c442@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080911.124202.1984.2.gpd4@juno.com><156583.78638.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40809111035p4158f6cfk26aa5ab581c7c442@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AABD4615D8524658933C1DD162EE7071@jdnet.deere.com>

> and get someone to test the coolant
> for combusion gases.

FWIW, I picked up the tool to do this on eBay, brand new, for not much more
than my local radiator shop charged for the test.  Here's a used one, just
as an example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300256604214

Randall

From bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com  Thu Sep 11 16:41:51 2008
From: bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com (Brian Warrick)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:41:51 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
Message-ID: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>

I need to build some shelves in my garage to store stuff.  You know how
it is, never enough storage!!!  Anyway, I am not much of a carpenter so
I do not have a level.  I am looking for one in the 5-6' long range.
What do I look for in a level?  What type of construction/material?
Brand?  Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and get started
already?  Also, any source for plans?  I am looking to build some
substantial shelves to support upwards of 50-75 lb/ft.



Thanks,



Brian

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Sep 11 17:18:00 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:18:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN
	.local>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>

At 06:41 PM 9/11/2008, Brian Warrick wrote:

 >I need to build some shelves in my garage to store stuff.  You know how
 >it is, never enough storage!!!  Anyway, I am not much of a carpenter so
 >I do not have a level.  I am looking for one in the 5-6' long range.
 >What do I look for in a level?  What type of construction/material?
 >Brand?  Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and get started
 >already?  Also, any source for plans?  I am looking to build some
 >substantial shelves to support upwards of 50-75 lb/ft.

I'd say almost any level from a hardware store (like HomeDepot) etc. should
do the job.  We  aren't talking rocket science here. :)

However you mentioned building one.  If you really want to do that, you can
very easliy.  All you need is some clear plastic hose long enough to cover
about 2'ish more than you need it to be.  Fill the hose with water.  Then
hold one end where you want it,  and move the other end around.  If you have
enough water in the tubing it will seek its own level and you've got a level.

John




>Thanks,
>
>
>
>Brian
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as jblair1948 at cox.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From bill at gingerich.us  Thu Sep 11 17:31:33 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:31:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
Message-ID: <FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>

Food coloring in the water will make it easier to see.

BillG
OKC



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
John T. Blair
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:18 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Levels

At 06:41 PM 9/11/2008, Brian Warrick wrote:

 >I need to build some shelves in my garage to store stuff.  You know how
 >it is, never enough storage!!!  Anyway, I am not much of a carpenter so
 >I do not have a level.  I am looking for one in the 5-6' long range.
 >What do I look for in a level?  What type of construction/material?
 >Brand?  Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and get started
 >already?  Also, any source for plans?  I am looking to build some
 >substantial shelves to support upwards of 50-75 lb/ft.

I'd say almost any level from a hardware store (like HomeDepot) etc. should
do the job.  We  aren't talking rocket science here. :)

However you mentioned building one.  If you really want to do that, you can
very easliy.  All you need is some clear plastic hose long enough to cover
about 2'ish more than you need it to be.  Fill the hose with water.  Then
hold one end where you want it,  and move the other end around.  If you have
enough water in the tubing it will seek its own level and you've got a
level.

John




>Thanks,
>
>
>
>Brian
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as jblair1948 at cox.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Sep 11 17:36:49 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:36:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
	<FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809111636p7abaaab7y1bb906e194f911d3@mail.gmail.com>

*I buil a water level 50 feet long of garden hose with clear plastic hose
spliced on both ends . . found out why my stupid gutters didn't work!*

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:31 PM, Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:

> Food coloring in the water will make it easier to see.
>
> BillG
> OKC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill <shop-talk-bounces%2Bbill>=gingerich.us@
> autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> John T. Blair
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:18 PM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Levels
>
> At 06:41 PM 9/11/2008, Brian Warrick wrote:
>
>  >I need to build some shelves in my garage to store stuff.  You know how
>  >it is, never enough storage!!!  Anyway, I am not much of a carpenter so
>  >I do not have a level.  I am looking for one in the 5-6' long range.
>  >What do I look for in a level?  What type of construction/material?
>  >Brand?  Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and get started
>  >already?  Also, any source for plans?  I am looking to build some
>  >substantial shelves to support upwards of 50-75 lb/ft.
>
> I'd say almost any level from a hardware store (like HomeDepot) etc. should
> do the job.  We  aren't talking rocket science here. :)
>
> However you mentioned building one.  If you really want to do that, you can
> very easliy.  All you need is some clear plastic hose long enough to cover
> about 2'ish more than you need it to be.  Fill the hose with water.  Then
> hold one end where you want it,  and move the other end around.  If you
> have
> enough water in the tubing it will seek its own level and you've got a
> level.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> >Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> >Brian
> >_______________________________________________
> >Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> >You are subscribed as jblair1948 at cox.net
> >
> >Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> >http://www.team.net/archive
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Sep 11 17:41:14 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:41:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <20080911234114.UQGW27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Anyway, I am not 
> much of a carpenter so I do not have a level.  I am looking 
> for one in the 5-6' long range.

I'm wondering why you want such a long one to start with.  The more usual 3'
level is adequate for most DIY type projects.

> Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and 
> get started already?

IMO, yes.  Just pick up an inexpensive aluminum level and get on with it.

>  Also, any source for plans?  I am 
> looking to build some substantial shelves to support upwards 
> of 50-75 lb/ft.

Just a thought, you might want to look at what's available pre-fab.  I got a
kit from Home Depot that sounds like it might meet your needs.  The shelves
are just 5/8" pulpboard, but they are supported by stout steel on all 4
sides (and could be easily replaced with 3/4" OSB if desired).  I've had
some cylinder heads stacked on a shelf for over a year now, and it hasn't
sagged at all.

This looks like the same thing, but mine could be assembled as two 3' high
sections instead of one 6' high.
http://tinyurl.com/4lkfkh

Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Sep 11 18:13:10 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:13:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local><6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
	<FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
Message-ID: <CC856C5045894A26BFD8BE256C9976CE@HPPavilion>

> However you mentioned building one.  If you really want to do that, you
can very easliy.  
> All you need is some clear plastic hose long enough to cover about 2'ish
more than you 
> need it to be.  Fill the hose with water.  Then hold one end where you
want it,  and move 
> the other end around.  If you have enough water in the tubing it will seek
its own level 
> and you've got a level.

I had some large industrial equipment (over 40 feet long) built in Mexico
about 15 years ago and this is how they leveled the "dumpster shaped"
assembly.  Cheap, easy and accurate.

Jack

From shiples at comcast.net  Thu Sep 11 18:48:35 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:48:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN
	.local>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080911173430.02f71260@mail.comcast.net>

At 04:41 PM 9/11/2008 -0600, Brian Warrick wrote:
>I need to build some shelves in my garage to store stuff.  You know how
>it is, never enough storage!!!  Anyway, I am not much of a carpenter so
>I do not have a level.  I am looking for one in the 5-6' long range.
>What do I look for in a level?  What type of construction/material?
>Brand?  Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and get started
>already?  Also, any source for plans?  I am looking to build some
>substantial shelves to support upwards of 50-75 lb/ft.

I bought about 20' of clear tubing years ago and it really is
much better than a level in many cases.  Buy a large enough
diameter and you can drive a nail in each end so you can
hang it on the wall.  A water level will also go around corners.

Another option to a standard level is a SmartLevel.  Just found
mine tucked away in another cluttered part of the house.  Needs
a 9V battery but provides a LCD readout various additional
features beyond the standard level.  I'm going to use mine to
monitor a concrete wall that's being shoved by a large tree.

Steve

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Sep 11 19:10:38 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:10:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
Message-ID: <OF6D5A53AA.12C4181D-ON852574C2.0006779B-852574C2.0006779F@mail.megageek.com>

The only trick I know about buying a level is to use it in the store on a
shelf, the flip it over to make sure you get the same reading on both side.
You also do this with my measuring the shelf's plumb.

I'm terrible at explaning things intext!  8>)



Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Sep 11 19:34:48 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:34:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <82567BF3-CDE8-450D-B419-C2B44109FACE@groupwbench.org>

On Sep 11, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Brian Warrick wrote:

> I need to build some shelves in my garage to store stuff.  You know  
> how
> it is, never enough storage!!!  Anyway, I am not much of a carpenter  
> so
> I do not have a level.  I am looking for one in the 5-6' long range.
> What do I look for in a level?  What type of construction/material?
> Brand?  Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and get  
> started
> already?


In addition to the previous posts, you could get some mason's twine  
and a line level. The level hooks onto the taut twine. This is used  
for laying out rows of bricks. The setup might get in your way.

I bought this for doing tile in a bathroom:

http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/Product-Details.aspx?ProductID=6463

Overkill, but very cool :-)

> Also, any source for plans?  I am looking to build some
> substantial shelves to support upwards of 50-75 lb/ft.

If you don't need more than a foot of depth, the metal brackets that  
hook into vertical rails are fine. For 2' depth you need some front  
support on the shelves. Home Depot sells plastic stackable shelving  
that's about $50 for a 2' x 4' and takes 10 minutes to assemble. They  
will sag over time if you put engines on them. The metal Gorilla Racks  
will hold a few engines apiece but are pricy. Lots of 2x4 and plywood  
plans out there on the 'net, and I bet Norm Abrams has one or two sets  
of plans on the The New Yankee Workshop page if you really want to go  
nuts.

jim

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Sep 11 19:56:24 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:56:24 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] coil spring isolators
Message-ID: <48C9CC48.7050701@141.com>

I'm having the springs replaced because they were shot and while 
removing the springs the spring isolator pads disintegrated.  I've been 
searching for days trying to find replacement front coil spring 
isolators for our 1974  Chevy P30 chassis motorhome. 

The coil springs are 5-3/8 OD x 3-3/4 ID.  I tried several parts stores 
and they didn't have a clue.  I've tried one of the better suspension 
shops here and they told me to go to the Chevy dealer as they are a 
dealer only item.  I've called the Chevy dealer and they told me the 
parts were no longer available.  They couldn't even give me a part 
number.    

So, would anyone have an idea or suggestion as to where I can find these 
things?  I hate to put things back together with metal to metal contact.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Brad

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Sep 11 20:01:58 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:01:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] coil spring isolators
In-Reply-To: <48C9CC48.7050701@141.com>
References: <48C9CC48.7050701@141.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809111901h707f93r938aa92e2b6c3318@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:
> I'm having the springs replaced because they were shot and while
> removing the springs the spring isolator pads disintegrated.  I've been
> searching for days trying to find replacement front coil spring
> isolators for our 1974  Chevy P30 chassis motorhome.
>
> The coil springs are 5-3/8 OD x 3-3/4 ID.  I tried several parts stores
> and they didn't have a clue.  I've tried one of the better suspension
> shops here and they told me to go to the Chevy dealer as they are a
> dealer only item.  I've called the Chevy dealer and they told me the
> parts were no longer available.  They couldn't even give me a part
> number.
>
> So, would anyone have an idea or suggestion as to where I can find these
> things?  I hate to put things back together with metal to metal contact.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.

Was the shop you talked to a car shop, or a truck shop?  You want a
good truck shop.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Sep 11 20:07:39 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:07:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] coil spring isolators
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40809111901h707f93r938aa92e2b6c3318@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48C9CC48.7050701@141.com>
	<2400a5d40809111901h707f93r938aa92e2b6c3318@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48C9CEEB.4080000@141.com>

It was a truck shop.  Thats why I was rather surprised when the Chevy 
dealer told me they were NLA.


David Scheidt wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:
>   
>> I'm having the springs replaced because they were shot and while
>> removing the springs the spring isolator pads disintegrated.  I've been
>> searching for days trying to find replacement front coil spring
>> isolators for our 1974  Chevy P30 chassis motorhome.
>>
>> The coil springs are 5-3/8 OD x 3-3/4 ID.  I tried several parts stores
>> and they didn't have a clue.  I've tried one of the better suspension
>> shops here and they told me to go to the Chevy dealer as they are a
>> dealer only item.  I've called the Chevy dealer and they told me the
>> parts were no longer available.  They couldn't even give me a part
>> number.
>>
>> So, would anyone have an idea or suggestion as to where I can find these
>> things?  I hate to put things back together with metal to metal contact.
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>     
>
> Was the shop you talked to a car shop, or a truck shop?  You want a
> good truck shop.
>
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 7:03 AM

From BSHolden at aol.com  Thu Sep 11 20:22:04 2008
From: BSHolden at aol.com (BSHolden at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:22:04 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] coil spring isolators
Message-ID: <c80.36da30a2.35fb2c4c@aol.com>

Try rockauto.com
 
Bart Holden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
In a message dated 9/11/2008 9:12:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
brad.kahler at 141.com writes:

It was a  truck shop.  Thats why I was rather surprised when the Chevy 
dealer  told me they were NLA.







**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, 
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.      
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)

From hal at katemuir.com  Fri Sep 12 00:51:30 2008
From: hal at katemuir.com (Hal Faulkner)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:51:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] coil spring isolators
In-Reply-To: <48C9CEEB.4080000@141.com>
Message-ID: <HJECLIGCCJIHGFIGICMFMEJHIIAA.hal@katemuir.com>

Brad,
Find yourself a Spring Shop.  They will most likely know just where to find
what you want.  Or how to make it for you.

Hal

-

From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Sep 12 03:20:10 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:20:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360809111636p7abaaab7y1bb906e194f911d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
	<FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
	<ea2385360809111636p7abaaab7y1bb906e194f911d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48CA344A.2050108@milleredp.com>

Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> *I buil a water level 50 feet long of garden hose with clear plastic hose
> spliced on both ends . . found out why my stupid gutters didn't work!*

I made four of 'em when I was checking the well-bashed '65 Mustang 
convertible to see how square it was - one across each the front and 
rear suspension pickup points, then two front-left/right-rear, 
front-right/left-rear.

John.

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Sep 12 05:39:01 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 07:39:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <48CA344A.2050108@milleredp.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
	<FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
	<ea2385360809111636p7abaaab7y1bb906e194f911d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48CA344A.2050108@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <0K7200JWVZ11MV20@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

This is probably a bit much for building garage shelves, but I have 
an electronic water level sort of like 
this: 
http://www.amazon.com/Zircon-58467-Electronic-Water-Level/dp/B0009YJB7U. 
The main advantage is that you can use it without a helper, even over 
reasonably long distances.  It beeps when you're at the right 
level.  As I said, probably not necessary for garage shelves, but 
keep it in mind if  you decide to build a fence or something.  And 
it's only like $25.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Sep 12 05:41:40 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 07:41:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <48CA344A.2050108@milleredp.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
	<FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
	<ea2385360809111636p7abaaab7y1bb906e194f911d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48CA344A.2050108@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <0K7200I3GZ5LH930@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Cool.  Did you have them all interconnected so that all the tubes 
would show the same level?  Sort of a water level octopus?

At 05:20 AM 9/12/2008, John Miller wrote:
>Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> > *I buil a water level 50 feet long of garden hose with clear plastic hose
> > spliced on both ends . . found out why my stupid gutters didn't work!*
>
>I made four of 'em when I was checking the well-bashed '65 Mustang
>convertible to see how square it was - one across each the front and
>rear suspension pickup points, then two front-left/right-rear,
>front-right/left-rear.

From bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com  Fri Sep 12 06:55:20 2008
From: bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com (Brian Warrick)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 06:55:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <20080911234114.UQGW27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<20080911234114.UQGW27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DD8@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>

>I'm wondering why you want such a long one to start with.  The more
usual 3'
>level is adequate for most DIY type projects.

>> Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and
>> get started already?

>IMO, yes.  Just pick up an inexpensive aluminum level and get on with
it.

>Just a thought, you might want to look at what's available pre-fab.  I
got a
>kit from Home Depot that sounds like it might meet your needs.  The
shelves
>are just 5/8" pulpboard, but they are supported by stout steel on all 4
>sides (and could be easily replaced with 3/4" OSB if desired).  I've
had
>some cylinder heads stacked on a shelf for over a year now, and it
hasn't
>sagged at all.

As I suspected, I was overthinking the problem.  I hadn't thought of the
suggestion of how to check the level at the store.  That helps a lot!

I had thought of some of the pre-fab kits, but a buddy of mine gave me
three pieces of particle board shelving 2' wide by 8' long.  I have some
assorted 2x4's sitting around, so I am mostly set for materials.  Plus,
I would like the experience, even with something so simple.

Thanks for all the advice.

Brian

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Sep 12 07:53:58 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:53:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DD8@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<20080911234114.UQGW27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DD8@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809120952380.25673@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008, Brian Warrick wrote:
> I had thought of some of the pre-fab kits, but a buddy of mine gave me 
> three pieces of particle board shelving 2' wide by 8' long.  I have some 
> assorted 2x4's sitting around, so I am mostly set for materials.  Plus, 
> I would like the experience, even with something so simple.

Having been there and done that, my only real suggestion is to rip the 
2x4s to make 2x2's.  They won't get in the way as much & will still handle 
about any amount of weight you'll be able to get on a shelf.

You can rip them with just a skillsaw... We're not talking finish 
carpentry here.

Mark

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Sep 12 08:14:54 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 07:14:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
Message-ID: <200809121414.m8CEEsAV031101@moose.dimebank.com>

> I had thought of some of the pre-fab kits, but a buddy of mine gave me
> three pieces of particle board shelving 2' wide by 8' long. 

What I've done for rough-and-ready shelves, especially when I'm
after either a complex layout or precise fit in a space (like a
storage locker) is build a frame out of notched 2x4s.

The uprights get notched on the outside edge to hold long horizontals
front and back; those are the main weight bearing members. The uprights
are spaced apart by shorter pieces. It all screws together with 3"
Grabbers; plywood or particle board for the shelves, screwed down, make
these things very stable.

I've spanned 10' or more with this technique. I've also built up
complex models out in the open, made a few pencil marks at the
joints for identification, then disassembled and transported to
the place where it needed to fit tightly...

It's a bunch of work. I usually use the pre-fab kits if I can.

From arvidj at visi.com  Fri Sep 12 08:53:33 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:53:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local><20080911234114.UQGW27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall><572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DD8@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809120952380.25673@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <771E583B4ECE4262A845E75417E21970@behavioral.com>

Food for thought ...

http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/fliers/DIY-PROJECT08.pdf

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Sep 12 13:12:47 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:12:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DD8@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN
	.local>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<20080911234114.UQGW27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DD8@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080912150058.01d4a4a8@cox.net>

At 08:55 AM 9/12/2008, Brian Warrick wrote:

 >I had thought of some of the pre-fab kits, but a buddy of mine gave me
 >three pieces of particle board shelving 2' wide by 8' long.  I have some
 >assorted 2x4's sitting around, so I am mostly set for materials.  Plus,
 >I would like the experience, even with something so simple.

Brian,

I usually make my shelving out of 1/2 - 3/4" plywood.  I start with a 
full sheet
then cut it lengthwise to for 2 long shelves or cut it into quarters to make 4
2' x 4' shelves, and 2x4s.  I've hung them from the ceiling in my garage, made
shelving in my attic, a work bench for the garage, and free standing shelves
for my shed.  However, this time, I was at Costco about 2 mo. ago and they
have some very nice heavy duty shelves for about $60.  The stand about 5'
tall, have 4 shelves, and each shelf can hold somthing rediculious like 500#s.
I use the metal 2x4 hangers to hold things together.  I make a frame out of
2x4s that the 2' wide by 4' or  8' long sheets of plywood will fit 
on.  Then I usually
put 2x4s as legs on the outside of the 2x4 frame.

I got 2 sets of them.  I was out of plywood and 2x4s so a rough guesstimate
and the shelves cost me something like 50% more that building it myself, and
were asssembled quicker than making my own.

My attic has roof supports that tie the rafters for the roof to the 
joists for the
ceiling on the 1st floor (a ranch style).  So these roof supports 
sort of form a V.
I cut 2x4s, to 4' length.  Then set them against the roof supports until the
2x4s are flush with each end of the V.  I screw them in place with 3 dry wall
screws at each end.  Lay the plywood decking in place, and voloa!  Tons of
additional storage space in the attic!

I did find that I needed to put stringers under the plywood to keep 
the deck from
warpping and being able to slide down between the supports.  For the stringes
I used 2x4s with the 2x4 metal hangers.

If anyone want to see pictures, email me privately, and I'll send you some
pictures of what I did.  A picture is worth 1000 words. :)

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Fri Sep 12 16:38:07 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:38:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts DC
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>

thanks for all the help on the 6 volt starting issue on the 49 dodge.

Now I need to test the accessories like the clock and the radio.

what can I use for  source?

toy train transformer?

lantern battery?

can I make a change to my 12volt jump box to make it safe?

thanks
Skip

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Sep 12 17:01:36 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:01:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts DC
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809121601i3a1cbb6bse4cc51c622dd672a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> thanks for all the help on the 6 volt starting issue on the 49 dodge.
>
> Now I need to test the accessories like the clock and the radio.
>
> what can I use for  source?
>
> toy train transformer?
>
> lantern battery?
>

Is there a reason you don't go buy a six volt battery?  If there's a
farm supply place around, you'll be able to pick one up for 40 bucks
or so.  Lots of old tractors still running 6V electrical systems.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Sep 12 17:12:35 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:12:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts DC
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <87E35847FBC24F08946ED91C21DB8823@jdnet.deere.com>

> what can I use for [6v] source?
> toy train transformer?

Should work, if you can adjust the voltage.  But usually their output has a
lot of AC in it, so for testing radios and such you should probably add some
filter capacitor(s) across the output (which will increase the voltage,
requiring further adjustment).  You should be able to find some suitable
filter caps at Radio Shack.  I'd look for at least 1000 microfarads and at
least 20 volts.  Higher on either number won't hurt.  The local "ham" (radio
amateur) swap meet might be another good source (if they still have such
things in your area).  Or this one would do nicely:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200252751330

> lantern battery?

Good choice for things that don't draw too much current.  I'm guessing that
a 6v radio would have tubes though, and likely draws more than a lantern
battery can comfortably supply.  If you want to try it, monitor the battery
voltage while under load.  Your radio probably won't work very well if the
voltage drops below 5 volts or so.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Sep 12 17:28:15 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:28:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts DC
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080912191953.01d107c8@cox.net>

At 06:38 PM 9/12/2008, Skip Albright wrote:

 >thanks for all the help on the 6 volt starting issue on the 49 dodge.
 >Now I need to test the accessories like the clock and the radio.
 >what can I use for  source?

Skip,

Why not the car's electrical system?  But yes you can us a 6V lantern
battery to test the various accessories.

 >can I make a change to my 12volt jump box to make it safe?

Not easliy.  You'd need to install a switch to cut about 1/2 the internal
batteries out of the system or have some sort of very large resistor, like
a oil bathed resistor for a radio transmitter dummy load to give you the
voltage drop you'd need when cranking.

I've just been through the same problems with my dad's '40 Packard.  It had
been very slow cranking.  So we replaced all the high current wires from the
battery to the starter and solenoid,  and battery ground and engine to chassis
ground strap.  Since then, it's been spinning pretty well (for a 6V system).
Today it was very sluggish and after we fired her up to move her, 
shut her down,
when we went to refire she wouldn't light.  Turns out that last time 
dad worked
on it, if didn't reconnect the ground strap from the chassis to the 
block.   Once
we found and reconnected that, she slowly came to life.  The joy's of a 6V
system.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From bill at gingerich.us  Fri Sep 12 20:49:20 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:49:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts DC
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080912183535.02ba5160@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <EE4ECEF958CB4292A243ECB4E0013E92@shack2>

Check Radio Shack for a voltage converter.  They used to sell units that
plugged in a cigarette lighter socket and had adjustable output voltages.
One that I have in my "junk" box has settings for 3, 4.5, 6, 9, & 12 volts.
Finding one with a big enough current capacity might be a trick, but I think
they are out there.

Another option that takes a little work and soldering is to build an
adjustable voltage regulator.  Simple ones have 5-6 components that can be
bought at Radio Shack, and can handle 5 amps or so.  You connect the input
to your 12 volt battery, adjust the knob so the output is 6 volts, and away
you go.  I've built a couple over the years, and it really is easy.

BillG
Newalla, OK

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Skip Albright
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:38 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 volts DC

thanks for all the help on the 6 volt starting issue on the 49 dodge.

Now I need to test the accessories like the clock and the radio.

what can I use for  source?

toy train transformer?

lantern battery?

can I make a change to my 12volt jump box to make it safe?

thanks
Skip

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From msansouc at rochester.rr.com  Sat Sep 13 12:59:03 2008
From: msansouc at rochester.rr.com (Mark Sansouci)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:59:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>

Brian-
I can't believe a group of tool junkies missed this opportunity.  My 
wife gave me a 4 ft. Crick for Christmas, and it warms my heart every 
time I use it.  Sure, you can get just as effective tool for less, even 
one of extruded aluminum, but wheres the joy in that?

http://www.cricktool.com/products.php?op=list&catID=1

Mark

Brian Warrick wrote:
> I need to build some shelves in my garage to store stuff.  You know how
> it is, never enough storage!!!  Anyway, I am not much of a carpenter so
> I do not have a level.  I am looking for one in the 5-6' long range.
> What do I look for in a level?  What type of construction/material?
> Brand?  Am I over thinking the problem, just go get one and get started
> already?  Also, any source for plans?  I am looking to build some
> substantial shelves to support upwards of 50-75 lb/ft.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sat Sep 13 13:09:05 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:09:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>

Mark -

You're a brave man, posting this kind of thing here.  I'm amazed you haven't 
already been taken to task and told that Horrible Freight has a Chinese 
level in genuine plastic for $1.99, and it works just as well.

I'll shut up now and go back to using my American wire twisters.....

Karl


> I can't believe a group of tool junkies missed this opportunity.  My
> wife gave me a 4 ft. Crick for Christmas, and it warms my heart every
> time I use it.  Sure, you can get just as effective tool for less, even
> one of extruded aluminum, but wheres the joy in that?
>
> http://www.cricktool.com/products.php?op=list&catID=1

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Sep 13 13:26:52 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:26:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local><48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
Message-ID: <BBFE7CA05DA645A397591E6EB8F9414C@HPPavilion>

Karl,

You only gave us 10 minutes. .. .Gimme a break!

Mark,

You're a brave man, posting this kind of thing here.  I've heard that
Horrible Freight has a Chinese level in genuine plastic for $1.99, and it
works just as well.  <grin>

Jack
p.s. - nice level

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl
Vacek
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:09 PM
To: Mark Sansouci
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Levels

Mark -

You're a brave man, posting this kind of thing here.  I'm amazed you haven't
already been taken to task and told that Horrible Freight has a Chinese
level in genuine plastic for $1.99, and it works just as well.

I'll shut up now and go back to using my American wire twisters.....

Karl


> I can't believe a group of tool junkies missed this opportunity.  My 
> wife gave me a 4 ft. Crick for Christmas, and it warms my heart every 
> time I use it.  Sure, you can get just as effective tool for less, 
> even one of extruded aluminum, but wheres the joy in that?
>
> http://www.cricktool.com/products.php?op=list&catID=1
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Sep 13 17:26:04 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:26:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
Message-ID: <BAY101-W547F189CCE15880ABFE1FACC500@phx.gbl>

I am posting this for my brother, who lives in what is currently a very wet
Chicago suburb.  (And Ike hasn't even hit them yet!)  His neighborhood is
flooded and his son just drove their 2004 Volvo S80 through about a foot of
water in front of their garage.  The car stalled in the water and they pushed
it the rest of the way into the garage.  Now, the engine won't catch at all
and, while it tuns over, it does not sound good.  (For what it is worth, there
is no evidence of oil leaking on the garage floor.)

It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine with
only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive electronics
where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he is
leaving the car in the garage and letting everything dry out before trying it
again.  In the meantime, does anyone have any advice for him or thoughts on
what might have gone wrong?

Thanks,

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Sat Sep 13 17:47:19 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 19:47:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W547F189CCE15880ABFE1FACC500@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C4F1C947.586C%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Jim, depends to some degree on how heavy a foot the son has. A young friend
of mine hit a small river in Utah in his small pickup several years ago.
Water entered the air intake, caused hydrolock and wrecked the engine. I
expect a foot of water is plenty if you're going fast enough. Maybe Volvo's
intakes are well shielded? Not sounding good when you turn it over isn't
good news.

The more likely culprit and common in the old cars I drove years ago is
water getting into the electrical system. Cracked distributor caps were
common. Let 'em dry out or us a blower (vacuum cleaner e.g.) to hurry up the
drying.

I'd be sore tempted to pull the plugs, inspect for water and run a
compression test before I went to far.

Good luck.

Brian
-- 

> From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:26:04 -0500
> To: shop talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>, "dstone at stonerealestate.com"
> <dstone at stonerealestate.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
> 
> I am posting this for my brother, who lives in what is currently a very wet
> Chicago suburb.  (And Ike hasn't even hit them yet!)  His neighborhood is
> flooded and his son just drove their 2004 Volvo S80 through about a foot of
> water in front of their garage.  The car stalled in the water and they pushed
> it the rest of the way into the garage.  Now, the engine won't catch at all
> and, while it tuns over, it does not sound good.  (For what it is worth, there
> is no evidence of oil leaking on the garage floor.)
> 
> It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine with
> only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive electronics
> where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he is
> leaving the car in the garage and letting everything dry out before trying it
> again.  In the meantime, does anyone have any advice for him or thoughts on
> what might have gone wrong?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jim

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Sep 13 18:55:38 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 20:55:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W547F189CCE15880ABFE1FACC500@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY101-W547F189CCE15880ABFE1FACC500@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48CC610A.4030203@xxiii.com>

Jim Stone wrote:
> It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine with
> only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive electronics
> where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he is

Quick check:  have him open the air filter box and see if it's wet.  If 
it is, well... the engine may be fubar.  Put the compression gauge on it 
to tell for sure.  Hopefully something less expensive!

   -Wayne

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Sep 13 19:18:50 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:18:50 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
Message-ID: <091420080118.11436.48CC667A000B644200002CAC220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

'04 seems new for something like wet electronics.  there's no points or distributor, but maybe something else got wet?

I'd do what was suggested and check the intake for water, pull the plugs and do a compression test.  if you do get it running, change the oil asap.

the main road in front of our street is a local low point and gustav flooded it to about 6-8 inches.  if you drive through even that depth fast enough water can splash off the tires and up the inside of the engine compartment into the intake.  and the idiots would burn through it like they were pulling a skier.  the funny noises the engines made right before dying was amusing (probably more to me than them).

I got my jetta through it okay, but always, always, ALWAYS drive through standing water very, very slowly, (think 'no wake') and that's if you absolutely, positively have to drive through it.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> I am posting this for my brother, who lives in what is currently a very wet
> Chicago suburb.  (And Ike hasn't even hit them yet!)  His neighborhood is
> flooded and his son just drove their 2004 Volvo S80 through about a foot of
> water in front of their garage.  The car stalled in the water and they pushed
> it the rest of the way into the garage.  Now, the engine won't catch at all
> and, while it tuns over, it does not sound good.  (For what it is worth, there
> is no evidence of oil leaking on the garage floor.)
> 
> It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine with
> only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive electronics
> where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he is
> leaving the car in the garage and letting everything dry out before trying it
> again.  In the meantime, does anyone have any advice for him or thoughts on
> what might have gone wrong?

From friz at frontiernet.net  Sat Sep 13 19:19:01 2008
From: friz at frontiernet.net (Rick Frisicano)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:19:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car]
Message-ID: <48CC6685.9070200@frontiernet.net>

This happened to a friend of mine. He pulled all the plugs and cranked 
the engine over a few times. Water came out of the plug holes. He put 
the plugs back in and the engine started. He then changed the oil that 
same night, changed the air filter, and dried the inside of the air 
intake. The engine ran fine for several years after that. It did 
everything that night so maybe he got lucky.

Wayne wrote:
> Jim Stone wrote:
>   
>> It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine with
>> only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive electronics
>> where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he is
>>     
>
> Quick check:  have him open the air filter box and see if it's wet.  If 
> it is, well... the engine may be fubar.  Put the compression gauge on it 
> to tell for sure.  Hopefully something less expensive!
>
>    -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as friz at frontiernet.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (4.0.0.26 - 10.100.027).
> http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/
>
>   





No virus found in this outgoing message
Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (4.0.0.26 - 10.100.027).
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From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Sep 13 19:25:38 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:25:38 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
Message-ID: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

simple, I guess: how sharp should they be?

the new husky rider's blades are...well, you can saw your thumb back and forth pressing heavily and not even get a mark.  they're almost rounded.  yes, I'm looking at the leading edge, not the trailing edge.

I'd think that's for a reason because the thing is spankin' new, but the more I think about it, the more I think they just skipped a step in the assembly where they were supposed to sharpen them.

for every other mower I've had, I just buy a new one when the old one wears out.  these, I'll sharpen if I can.  so...uh, how?  dremel, grinder...?  I suppose razor sharp would be nice, but that'd dull pretty quick, so what am I looking for as far as cutting power?  and I don't want to take off too much meat because I assume they should also balance somehow, which brings up the next question, do I need to balance them, and if so, just side-to-side, right?

or should I leave them the hell alone and go bitch at the home depot droids?

and no, the manual does not make mention of this, save to replace the blades when they appear worn.  the manual is thus far pretty useless.

thanks.

scott

From ericm at lne.com  Sat Sep 13 19:36:04 2008
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:36:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
In-Reply-To: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080914013604.GN20370@slack.lne.com>

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 01:25:38AM +0000, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
> simple, I guess: how sharp should they be?


I sharpen mine as sharp as I can considering that I use a bench grinder
and a file for the parts a grinder can't reach, and don't spend a lot of
time on it.   

I don't think there's much benefit to getting out the honing stones.

I balance mine with a pencil through the hole.  Side to side is fine.

 
> and no, the manual does not make mention of this, save to replace the blades when they appear worn.  the manual is thus far pretty useless.

Seems to be the trend these days... consumer documentation gets
outsourced or assigned to dingbats (or both).


Eric

From nases at verizon.net  Sat Sep 13 19:38:09 2008
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:38:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
In-Reply-To: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <E99A85DD-FD5B-4441-8B0C-ED6196594AD1@verizon.net>

I don't know how  sharp they should be.  I found the same thing on a  
new John Deere tractor.  I assumed it was product liability they were  
trying to avoid.

I sharpen mine on a grinder wheel and balance them with a nail in the  
vise.  Crude but good enough for my use.  I'm sure the more  
engineering talented folks on the list will give better advice.

For me if the grass isn't browning at the tips they are sharp enough.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Sep 13, 2008, at 9:25 PM, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:

> simple, I guess: how sharp should they be?
>
> the new husky rider's blades are...well, you can saw your thumb back  
> and forth pressing heavily and not even get a mark.  they're almost  
> rounded.  yes, I'm looking at the leading edge, not the trailing edge.
>
> I'd think that's for a reason because the thing is spankin' new, but  
> the more I think about it, the more I think they just skipped a step  
> in the assembly where they were supposed to sharpen them.
>
> for every other mower I've had, I just buy a new one when the old  
> one wears out.  these, I'll sharpen if I can.  so...uh, how?   
> dremel, grinder...?  I suppose razor sharp would be nice, but that'd  
> dull pretty quick, so what am I looking for as far as cutting  
> power?  and I don't want to take off too much meat because I assume  
> they should also balance somehow, which brings up the next question,  
> do I need to balance them, and if so, just side-to-side, right?
>
> or should I leave them the hell alone and go bitch at the home depot  
> droids?
>
> and no, the manual does not make mention of this, save to replace  
> the blades when they appear worn.  the manual is thus far pretty  
> useless.
>
> thanks.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as nases at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Sep 13 20:08:51 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:08:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
References: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A7ABC63F6E504DCFAA6EF28F150DB8A9@ejrussell>

I use an attachment for a Dremel tool for touch-up sharpening. Your 
description sounds like it needs more than a bit of touch up. Remove 
the blade and use a bench grinder. Or bring it back to Home Despot and 
insist you want a sharp blade.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/gardening/1273691.html

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
> the new husky rider's blades are... they're almost rounded.  yes, 
> I'm looking at the leading edge, not the trailing edge.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Sep 13 20:07:56 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:07:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car]
In-Reply-To: <48CC6685.9070200@frontiernet.net>
References: <48CC6685.9070200@frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <BAY101-W271679A61D82739984DF5ACC530@phx.gbl>

Thanks everyone.  I will pass on the info to my brother.  He's not going to be
able to do a compression check, but he can certainly check the air filter and
may be able to pull the plugs himself or get someone who can help.  I'd take
care if it if I was closer, but the best I can do is solicit advice for him.

> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:19:01 -0400
> From: friz at frontiernet.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car]
>
> This happened to a friend of mine. He pulled all the plugs and cranked
> the engine over a few times. Water came out of the plug holes. He put
> the plugs back in and the engine started. He then changed the oil that
> same night, changed the air filter, and dried the inside of the air
> intake. The engine ran fine for several years after that. It did
> everything that night so maybe he got lucky.
>
> Wayne wrote:
> > Jim Stone wrote:
> >
> >> It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine
with
> >> only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive
electronics
> >> where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he
is
> >>
> >
> > Quick check:  have him open the air filter box and see if it's wet.  If
> > it is, well... the engine may be fubar.  Put the compression gauge on it
> > to tell for sure.  Hopefully something less expensive!
> >
> >    -Wayne
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as friz at frontiernet.net
> >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> > http://www.team.net/archive
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message
> > Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (4.0.0.26 - 10.100.027).
> > http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message
> Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (4.0.0.26 - 10.100.027).
> http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
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From 57healey at gmail.com  Sat Sep 13 20:13:25 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:13:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
In-Reply-To: <A7ABC63F6E504DCFAA6EF28F150DB8A9@ejrussell>
References: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
	<A7ABC63F6E504DCFAA6EF28F150DB8A9@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0809131913k34155b15r131e980e136f8b4f@mail.gmail.com>

When I was a kid mowing yards, I used a hand file.  I grinder sounds
like it would work fine.

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net> wrote:
> I use an attachment for a Dremel tool for touch-up sharpening. Your
> description sounds like it needs more than a bit of touch up. Remove
> the blade and use a bench grinder. Or bring it back to Home Despot and
> insist you want a sharp blade.


-- 
Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."
1977 Newport '28

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sat Sep 13 20:20:58 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:20:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
Message-ID: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>

based on what I see on the internet.... I can't afford a new 1 gallon paint
shaker for
my truck painting project.   so I'm looking for a used shaker (under a hundred
bucks) or
some ideas on building my own.

I'm mixing paint I bought over a year ago and it's too far and too expensive
to drive it back to the automotive
paint dealer I bought it from to have it re-shook......

any ideas ???

thanks
John

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Sep 13 20:40:58 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:40:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
In-Reply-To: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
Message-ID: <0K7500FXVZGBX6N0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Can't you just go to any paint or hardware store with a shaker and 
give the guy a few bucks to do it for you?  It's automotive paint, so 
it's not like you bought it from their competitor instead of 
them.  I'd expect the local store I do business with to be happy to 
do it without charge, but I'd give the guy a few bucks anyway.

At 10:20 PM 9/13/2008, john niolon wrote:
>based on what I see on the internet.... I can't afford a new 1 gallon paint
>shaker for
>my truck painting project.   so I'm looking for a used shaker (under a hundred
>bucks) or
>some ideas on building my own.
>
>I'm mixing paint I bought over a year ago and it's too far and too expensive
>to drive it back to the automotive
>paint dealer I bought it from to have it re-shook......
>
>any ideas ???

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Sep 13 20:43:24 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:43:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
In-Reply-To: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
Message-ID: <0K7500EUXZKENTQ0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Also, Harbor Freight shows a pneumatic paint shaker for 
$120.  http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=94605

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Sep 13 20:50:54 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 02:50:54 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
Message-ID: <091420080250.26642.48CC7C0E000CD7FF00006812220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

so you wouldn't want to be sliding your hand up and down the edge, right?

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 01:25:38AM +0000, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
> > simple, I guess: how sharp should they be?
> 
> 
> I sharpen mine as sharp as I can considering that I use a bench grinder
> and a file for the parts a grinder can't reach, and don't spend a lot of
> time on it.   
> 
> I don't think there's much benefit to getting out the honing stones.
> 
> I balance mine with a pencil through the hole.  Side to side is fine.

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Sep 13 21:04:49 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:04:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W547F189CCE15880ABFE1FACC500@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY101-W547F189CCE15880ABFE1FACC500@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48CC7F51.8060504@enter.net>

Jim Stone wrote:
> It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine with
> only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive electronics
> where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he is
> leaving the car in the garage and letting everything dry out before trying it
> again.  In the meantime, does anyone have any advice for him or thoughts on
> what might have gone wrong?

Volvo like to put cool air intakes towards the front, behind the grille. 
No specific knowledge of the S80, but all the rest of mine have had one 
located there. Hit high water with enough speed and the bow wake can 
raise the water level enough to get sucked into the intake and wrecking 
the motor. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but it is well enough known in 
Volvo circles for this to happen.

Hoping for the best,
Jon

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Sat Sep 13 22:49:47 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 00:49:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
Message-ID: <004401c91625$50dbe880$87427247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Whats wrong with a ==paint paddle== to stir the paint as everyone does, I've 
never seen a shaker used outside the shop that mixes the paint, a paddle 
will do the  same thing a shaker will do--mix the paint==  "FT"
====================================================================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 10:20 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker


> based on what I see on the internet.... I can't afford a new 1 gallon 
> paint
> shaker for
> my truck painting project.   so I'm looking for a used shaker (under a 
> hundred
> bucks) or
> some ideas on building my own.
>
> I'm mixing paint I bought over a year ago and it's too far and too 
> expensive
> to drive it back to the automotive
> paint dealer I bought it from to have it re-shook......
>
> any ideas ???
>
> thanks
> John
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sat Sep 13 23:35:57 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 00:35:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
In-Reply-To: <091420080250.26642.48CC7C0E000CD7FF00006812220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <091420080250.26642.48CC7C0E000CD7FF00006812220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809132235q7e793301j89b2fe43ba4bd7de@mail.gmail.com>

*I and several of my buddies have excellent luck with the little 4 inch disc
grinders as blade sharpeners . . If you have lots of heavy grinding to do, a
good one from Makita or DeWalt is a smart purchase . . For lawn mower
blades, a $10 Chinese one from Harbor Freight is adequate . . We HAVE
learned to take the HF gearbox  apart and pack with soft grease like
Lubriplate . . . many are shipped almost dry.  Also, throw the original
grind disc away and buy a good Norton or Foley . . they cut four times
faster.*

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Sep 14 01:15:45 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 00:15:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades
In-Reply-To: <E99A85DD-FD5B-4441-8B0C-ED6196594AD1@verizon.net>
References: <091420080125.19216.48CC681200076D4000004B10220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
	<E99A85DD-FD5B-4441-8B0C-ED6196594AD1@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AF6DA7EF3D9749AEA9BCAF7F0CE3C63E@HPPavilion>

That's how this enginerd does it, i.e., bench grinder, followed by a light
touch up with a file, then balanced on a nail.

Jack, PE

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Phil
Nase
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:38 PM
To: scott.hall at comcast.net
Cc: shop talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] lawnmower blades

I don't know how  sharp they should be.  I found the same thing on a new
John Deere tractor.  I assumed it was product liability they were trying to
avoid.

I sharpen mine on a grinder wheel and balance them with a nail in the vise.
Crude but good enough for my use.  I'm sure the more engineering talented
folks on the list will give better advice.

For me if the grass isn't browning at the tips they are sharp enough.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/



On Sep 13, 2008, at 9:25 PM, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:

> simple, I guess: how sharp should they be?
>
> the new husky rider's blades are...well, you can saw your thumb back 
> and forth pressing heavily and not even get a mark.  they're almost 
> rounded.  yes, I'm looking at the leading edge, not the trailing edge.
>
> I'd think that's for a reason because the thing is spankin' new, but 
> the more I think about it, the more I think they just skipped a step 
> in the assembly where they were supposed to sharpen them.
>
> for every other mower I've had, I just buy a new one when the old  
> one wears out.  these, I'll sharpen if I can.  so...uh, how?   
> dremel, grinder...?  I suppose razor sharp would be nice, but that'd 
> dull pretty quick, so what am I looking for as far as cutting power?  
> and I don't want to take off too much meat because I assume they 
> should also balance somehow, which brings up the next question, do I 
> need to balance them, and if so, just side-to-side, right?
>
> or should I leave them the hell alone and go bitch at the home depot 
> droids?
>
> and no, the manual does not make mention of this, save to replace the 
> blades when they appear worn.  the manual is thus far pretty useless.
>
> thanks.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as nases at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

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http://www.team.net/archive

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Sep 14 08:11:45 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:11:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
Message-ID: <AA585AA1750740B69C0371D18B0A7DDB@ejrussell>

Have you considered a paint stirring attachment for a slow speed
drill?
http://www.ronhazelton.com/tips/Paint_Stirrer.htm

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/pt_interior/article/0,,DIY_14204_2276901,00.html

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john niolon"

> I'm mixing paint I bought over a year ago
>
> any ideas ???

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Sep 14 15:36:46 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:36:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
	<004401c91625$50dbe880$87427247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <042c01c916b1$fd57c520$6401a8c0@niolon>

that's what we used last week Fred... this paint has been sitting on the 
bench for over a year... acrylic urethane automotive paint...and the lower 
half of the can was like putty... it took over an hour of hand stirring, 
mixing, stabbing, cussin to get it to the right consistancy for 
pouring/straining.  All four of our old arthritic hands were killing us... 
:-)

looking for an easier solution.... and we've got to do this again soon , 
besides, I've always wanted one for house projects anyway

thanks
John



Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "FRED E THOMAS" <frede.thomas2 at verizon.net>
To: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>; "Shop-Talk Mailing List" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker


> Whats wrong with a ==paint paddle== to stir the paint as everyone does, 
> I've
> never seen a shaker used outside the shop that mixes the paint, a paddle
> will do the  same thing a shaker will do--mix the paint==  "FT"
> ====================================================================================
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 10:20 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
>
>
>> based on what I see on the internet.... I can't afford a new 1 gallon
>> paint
>> shaker for
>> my truck painting project.   so I'm looking for a used shaker (under a
>> hundred
>> bucks) or
>> some ideas on building my own.
>>
>> I'm mixing paint I bought over a year ago and it's too far and too
>> expensive
>> to drive it back to the automotive
>> paint dealer I bought it from to have it re-shook......
>>
>> any ideas ???
>>
>> thanks
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1669 - Release Date: 9/12/2008 
2:18 PM

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Sep 14 16:12:45 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 18:12:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
In-Reply-To: <042c01c916b1$fd57c520$6401a8c0@niolon>
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
	<004401c91625$50dbe880$87427247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<042c01c916b1$fd57c520$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <48CD8C5D.2010906@xxiii.com>

john niolon wrote:
> that's what we used last week Fred... this paint has been sitting on the 
> bench for over a year... acrylic urethane automotive paint...and the lower 

Can't you buy a shaker at Harbor Freight for about $3.95?  I've heard
they last at least two cans before going up in smoke!

   -Wayne

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Sep 14 16:41:49 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
In-Reply-To: <004401c91625$50dbe880$87427247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <612285.31463.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Even if a can of paint has been shaken in the store,
you really need to stir it anyway.  I have had cans
shaken, only to find sticky sediment still at the
bottom of the can.

Doug


--- FRED E THOMAS <frede.thomas2 at verizon.net> wrote:

> Whats wrong with a ==paint paddle== to stir the
> paint as everyone does, I've 
> never seen a shaker used outside the shop that mixes
> the paint, a paddle 
> will do the  same thing a shaker will do--mix the
> paint==  "FT"

From darmstrong at nexicom.net  Sun Sep 14 18:53:45 2008
From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:53:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
In-Reply-To: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
Message-ID: <200809150053.m8F0rUQE008137@smtp.nexicom.net>

A sister company did a moderate amount of painting and screen printing.
They had a simple home made paint mixer that consisted of a motor, gear
reducer and a frame that held a pair of parallel shafts.  The paint can was
laid on its side and it rotated on the pair of shafts like a wiener on a hot
dog cooker.  Simple and I think effective.

Doug Armstrong

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of john niolon
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 10:21 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker

based on what I see on the internet.... I can't afford a new 1 gallon paint
shaker for
my truck painting project.   so I'm looking for a used shaker (under a
hundred
bucks) or
some ideas on building my own.

I'm mixing paint I bought over a year ago and it's too far and too expensive
to drive it back to the automotive
paint dealer I bought it from to have it re-shook......

any ideas ???

thanks
John
You are subscribed as darmstrong at nexicom.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1669 - Release Date: 9/13/2008
12:50 PM

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Sun Sep 14 20:26:05 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:26:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880>
	<004401c91625$50dbe880$87427247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <013d01c916da$68373560$2e387247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

I just reread my reply, I am now off of the nasty pill, very sorry for such 
a reply, I do not drink either.  :) :) "FT"
==========================================================================================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "FRED E THOMAS" <frede.thomas2 at verizon.net>
To: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>; "Shop-Talk Mailing List" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker


> Whats wrong with a ==paint paddle== to stir the paint as everyone does, 
> I've
> never seen a shaker used outside the shop that mixes the paint, a paddle
> will do the  same thing a shaker will do--mix the paint==  "FT"
> ====================================================================================
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
> To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 10:20 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
>
>
>> based on what I see on the internet.... I can't afford a new 1 gallon
>> paint
>> shaker for
>> my truck painting project.   so I'm looking for a used shaker (under a
>> hundred
>> bucks) or
>> some ideas on building my own.
>>
>> I'm mixing paint I bought over a year ago and it's too far and too
>> expensive
>> to drive it back to the automotive
>> paint dealer I bought it from to have it re-shook......
>>
>> any ideas ???
>>
>> thanks
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Sep 15 06:07:58 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:07:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] I need a paint shaker
References: <000b01c91610$88dc3330$6501a8c0@your72486d6880><004401c91625$50dbe880$87427247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<042c01c916b1$fd57c520$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <D4F196E3C4DD4DEAA1217B74D28039E9@KARL>

One trick a buddy's dad told us years ago --

Pour off the excess liquid and stir a little liquid at a time into the 
"putty" at the bottom.  Lots less mess and spillage.  Once you get the 
sludge softened a little, the rest of the liquid will mix in easily.

Karl


> that's what we used last week Fred... this paint has been sitting on the
> bench for over a year... acrylic urethane automotive paint...and the lower
> half of the can was like putty... it took over an hour of hand stirring,
> mixing, stabbing, cussin to get it to the right consistancy for
> pouring/straining.  All four of our old arthritic hands were killing us...

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Sep 15 07:00:23 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:00:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

:-)

I've noticed there are two kinds of tool junkies...

There's the kind that likes the tools they have to be name brand, top of 
the line, best of the best.

Then there's the kinds that likes to have all sorts of different tools, 
the right tool for the right job, even if the job doesn't happen all that 
much.

Of course, each group would like to have both, but its interesting to see 
whice way folks go when they need to decide which of those two priorities 
wins.

Mark

(I'm in the 2nd group)

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008, Karl Vacek wrote:

> Mark -
>
> You're a brave man, posting this kind of thing here.  I'm amazed you haven't
> already been taken to task and told that Horrible Freight has a Chinese
> level in genuine plastic for $1.99, and it works just as well.
>
> I'll shut up now and go back to using my American wire twisters.....
>
> Karl
>
>
>> I can't believe a group of tool junkies missed this opportunity.  My
>> wife gave me a 4 ft. Crick for Christmas, and it warms my heart every
>> time I use it.  Sure, you can get just as effective tool for less, even
>> one of extruded aluminum, but wheres the joy in that?
>>
>> http://www.cricktool.com/products.php?op=list&catID=1
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Sep 15 07:39:39 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:39:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
> I've noticed there are two kinds of tool junkies...
> There's the kind that likes the tools they have to be name brand, top of 
> ........
> Then there's the kinds that likes to have all sorts of different tools, 
> the right tool for the right job, even if the job doesn't happen all that 

To get off on a little tangent:  I'm all for "buy American" but it seems 
most of us can't afford that any more, myself included and I'm not poor.

I'm a computer programmer who's spent much of the last 20 years in 
manufacturing ERP applications and I've spent more years than I'd like 
doing "cost accounting" type things.  And I haven't seen the labor costs 
being all that outrageous.  I don't grasp how they're shipping this crap 
half way around the planet and still selling it cheaply.  Unless it's 
some communist plot.  So why are we all friendly with China but still 
concerned about Cuba??

We invented the industrial revolution and mass production 100+ years 
ago, but for the last 25 we can't sustain it?????  What the hell is 
going on?

Back to the topic:  I'm mixed.  I have mostly Craftsman hand tools; 
have a few DeWalts (drill, miter box) that I *really* like, though 
neither brand is considered "premium".  And I have a lot of cheap stuff 
from Harbor Freight, Auto Zone and similar places.  For as often as I 
use it, a cheap approximation of the correct tool is better than beating 
on it with a hammer!

   -Wayne

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Sep 15 07:53:15 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:53:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150945280.1274@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Wayne wrote:
> To get off on a little tangent:  I'm all for "buy American" but it seems
> most of us can't afford that any more, myself included and I'm not poor.
>
> I'm a computer programmer who's spent much of the last 20 years in
> manufacturing ERP applications and I've spent more years than I'd like
> doing "cost accounting" type things.  And I haven't seen the labor costs
> being all that outrageous.  I don't grasp how they're shipping this crap
> half way around the planet and still selling it cheaply.

This doesn't make too much sense to me, either.

As an example... Recently I've been addicted to this little 6" AL body 
flashlights.  9 leds, runs on three AAA batteries.

Like this:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.46

I bought a bunch of them prior to last xmas for $2 each.

2 dollars.

The body is an AL tube, with knurls machined in either end & threaded at 
both ends.  The switch sits in another AL machined deal with an o-ring and 
the switch.  The "light" end has 9 leds soldered to a board, with an AL 
machined "nut" that sandwiches the whole thing down in another AL tube 
with threads on the end.

Oh, and a useless fabric wrist strap & plastic AAA battery holder.

They have to make them, them ship them halfway around the world to me.

And they're able to do that, and presumably make a profit at it, with me 
buying them for $2 apiece.

How in the heck can that be possible?

Anyway, I do wonder if the recent fuel increases are going to make "cheap 
chinese tools" a little less cheap.  Of course, that'll also probably 
raise the cost of all but the really high end tools, since it seems like 
everything except the cadilac tools are made in China anyway (which is an 
assumption, and I'd love to know if I was wrong about it).

Mark

From nases at verizon.net  Mon Sep 15 08:03:18 2008
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:03:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
References: <677DDF0A-65F2-47D2-B683-3DF7A00F0D4A@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1E5A53E2-55A1-460C-871B-6802AD58190D@verizon.net>

> Went to HF Sunday and bought the nut rivet tool.  I tried to fit the  
> nose pieces on it and the tool threads are bad.
>
> It's always hit and miss with HF this time I missed.
>
> A friend tells a joke...If you buy cheap tools just throw them in  
> the trash on the way out and save yourself the aggravation of  
> actually using them;)
>
> Anyway, i see Mcmaster Carr's site says to use the same material riv  
> nuts as the material you're puttiing it in.  Do i really have to  
> worry about an aluminum riv nut against my steel Bugeye?
>
> Phil Nase
> Quakertown, PA
> http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/
>
>> On Sep 9, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Phil Nase wrote:
>>
>>>> I need to attach an electric fuel pump to a 1960 AH Sprite.  The
>>>> area I would like to use on the car is a boxed section in front of
>>>> the rear axle.  I can't get inside to use a nut on the bolt.
>>>>
>>>> Any suggestions on what type of fastener to use to secure it
>>>> firmly?  The Facet pump came with two self tapping 1/4 x 28 or 32
>>>> tpi screws.  Will that hold it well enough on thin sheet metal?
>>>>
>>>> I will also need to use some sort of shock absorption behind it,
>>>> possible just some thin rubber like a grommet?
>>>>
>>>> Phil Nase
>>>> Quakertown, PA
>>>> http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Sep 15 08:17:40 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:17:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150945280.1274@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20080915141741.BYGN26261.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> They have to make them, them ship them halfway around the world to me.
> 
> And they're able to do that, and presumably make a profit at 
> it, with me buying them for $2 apiece.
> 
> How in the heck can that be possible?

When you own the ship, and the crew, and the containers; shipping can be
incredibly cheap.  Plus the ships are set up to burn the leftovers from the
refining process, basically road tar.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Sep 15 08:24:58 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:24:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastener question
In-Reply-To: <1E5A53E2-55A1-460C-871B-6802AD58190D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20080915142459.HVPK25689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Do i really have to worry 
> about an aluminum riv nut against my steel Bugeye?

In theory, it creates the chance of dissimilar metal corrosion.  If you
drive where corrosion is a problem, perhaps it would be best to avoid it.
But I've had aluminum riv-nuts in my steel TR3A for 10 years or more, and no
signs of any corrosion.

Randall

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Sep 15 08:26:46 2008
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:26:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150945280.1274@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150945280.1274@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20080915102304.W91762@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Mark Andy wrote:
> How in the heck can that be possible?

    :dunno:  Meanwhile John Deere and Caterpiller are cranking out tractors 
and engines here, and shipping them everywhere else.

> Anyway, I do wonder if the recent fuel increases are going to make "cheap
> chinese tools" a little less cheap.  Of course, that'll also probably
> raise the cost of all but the really high end tools, since it seems like
> everything except the cadilac tools are made in China anyway (which is an
> assumption, and I'd love to know if I was wrong about it).

    I was shocked to find Made-in-the-USA razor knife blades at Home Depot 
a couple weeks ago.  And not just one brand, but two.  Of all the things 
they make overseas, I'd have thought simple blades were extinct here.

--
  David Hillman

From robolane at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 15 08:49:27 2008
From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (ROBERT LANE)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF Riv-nut tool
Message-ID: <577460.56975.qm@web82004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

When we buy anything from HF we need to try fit and finish, even if it is done in parking lot .    I am preaching to myself as well as others.  That could save a lot of frustration and trips back.  A note on the riv-nut tool.  I have one and find out that it is best to add a nut  if possible to the end of the riv-nut to keep from stripping the threads out. Other than that my works okay.

 
CATCH YOU LATER,
     ROBO

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Sep 15 09:16:31 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:16:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809150816y4e160daatb940e30b67753ac6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

>
>  . . . .  I don't grasp how they're shipping this crap half way around the
> planet and still selling it cheaply.


*I'm like Wayne:  I'm an old business major and I paid attention in
economics classes but I don't understand wot's going on . . A tool dealer
told me, 10 year ago, that the universal 40 piece 3/8" drive Chinese socket
set that he was selling for $3.95 actually only cost his distributor $1.00
if purchased in container lots . . .It was sorry as socket sets go but the
chrome was good and the rachet worked . . I kept a few of the sets in cars
and trucks for emergency use . . I doubt that we could even make the tin box
it came in for $1.00!  What are the Chinese doing and how long can they do
it?*

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 15 11:32:04 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:32:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150945280.1274@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150945280.1274@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809151032v612d001cxd04a43b0543ce7f1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Wayne wrote:
do that, and presumably make a profit at it, with me
> buying them for $2 apiece.
>
> How in the heck can that be possible?
>
> Anyway, I do wonder if the recent fuel increases are going to make "cheap
> chinese tools" a little less cheap.  Of course, that'll also probably
> raise the cost of all but the really high end tools, since it seems like
> everything except the cadilac tools are made in China anyway (which is an
> assumption, and I'd love to know if I was wrong about it).

You'll notice the price of your light is now $3, which is 50% hike in
10 months.  So, yeah, chinese tool prices are going up.  Shipping
prices from China to the US are up substantially, as are the prices of
much of what's in them (cast iron, steel, copper and aluminum).  Some
woodworking tools (which are big hunks of machined cast iron with
electric motors) are up 25% or more since the start of the year.
Transport costs are a large fraction of that.

There are lots of tools made in the US still, you just have to be
willing to pay for them.  They're not that much more expensive than
good quality imported stuff.  (They're lots more than the factory
floor sweepings that harbor freight sells, true.)

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Sep 15 12:34:42 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:34:42 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40809151032v612d001cxd04a43b0543ce7f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFE975B108.ED8D2BF2-ON432574C5.00649568-432574C5.0066BB36@mail.megageek.com>

I?m not an economist, nor do I play one on TV.  But I am working on my MBA
from this God awful desert 7000 miles from my home.  But here is how they
make $2 flashlights.

First, and maybe most importantly, China keeps their ?dollar? (the Yewan
(SP?)) pegged to the US dollar.  This means that your $2 dollars are a lot
more in China, even as the dollar drops in value.  (Note, the US has been
trying to get China to stop doing this and the recent low valve of the US
dollar may force them to.)

Another factor is the amount of people in China.  When you have a work
force of almost a billion people, it?s easy to find someone to do the job
for less.  In fact, labor is almost an insignificant cost in many of the
operations.

Then there is the volume factor.  The amount of those flashlights they
produce off that line is mind boggling.  I?m sure on this list we most
likely have at least 3 of those lights per list member.  When you have a
line that can keep pushing out the same product, costs can drop.  There
are no retooling expenses, no down times, no retraining losses, etc.

With that volume, the amount they need to profit on each one goes down as
well.  The more they can make, the cheaper the price goes.

Then you look at benefits.  If you think the average Chinese factory
worker gets health care, or even knows what retirement is, you are most
likely wrong.  These people work hard for little pay and no benefits.   In
fact, I think someone here once posted a statistics about how much of an
American car purchase was just health care for the workers.

Then there is the lawyer factor.  Insurance, regulation, and litigation
has made doing business in the US all but impossible.  It?s very expensive
to try and do simple things in the US, yet in China, none of these hurdles
exist.

Add all these factors up and it?s easy to see where that $2 flashlight
comes from.  This is most likely more than you ever wanted to know about a
flashlight, so I?ll just go back to war now.

Oh, one note for you tools hounds, on this base, we have scrap yards of
metal, wood, etc and vehicle junk yards.  All of which are free for the
taking!  It?s like being a little kid and having the coolest Lego set in
the world.  (Think about taking humvee drive trains and putting in on a
homemade motorcycle!)  So far, I?ve been limited without my tools, but I?m
working on getting a set from a local national!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 15 13:39:28 2008
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:39:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <OFE975B108.ED8D2BF2-ON432574C5.00649568-432574C5.0066BB36@mail.megageek.com>
References: <2400a5d40809151032v612d001cxd04a43b0543ce7f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFE975B108.ED8D2BF2-ON432574C5.00649568-432574C5.0066BB36@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <012b01c9176a$c49856a0$4dc903e0$@net>

Or to condense it down to one word "lawsuits"

The real reason most US companies outsource.

I always just try to live next door to a guy with a lot of tools! 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
eric at megageek.com
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 1:35 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)

I?m not an economist, nor do I play one on TV.  But I am working on my MBA
from this God awful desert 7000 miles from my home.  But here is how they
make $2 flashlights.

First, 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 15 13:41:39 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <OFE975B108.ED8D2BF2-ON432574C5.00649568-432574C5.0066BB36@mail.megageek.com>
References: <2400a5d40809151032v612d001cxd04a43b0543ce7f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFE975B108.ED8D2BF2-ON432574C5.00649568-432574C5.0066BB36@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809151241g57c1aecehf6f86176ad8e3f4e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:34 PM,  <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> I?m not an economist, nor do I play one on TV.  But I am working on my MBA
> from this God awful desert 7000 miles from my home.  But here is how they
> make $2 flashlights.
>
> First, and maybe most importantly, China keeps their ?dollar? (the Yewan
> (SP?)) pegged to the US dollar.  This means that your $2 dollars are a lot
> more in China, even as the dollar drops in value.  (Note, the US has been
> trying to get China to stop doing this and the recent low valve of the US
> dollar may force them to.)
>
> Another factor is the amount of people in China.  When you have a work
> force of almost a billion people, it?s easy to find someone to do the job
> for less.  In fact, labor is almost an insignificant cost in many of the
> operations.
>

In fact, China has a labor *shortage*, and wages are rising rapidly.
High-labor, low-skill jobs are leaving China, and going elsewhere,
where it's cheaper.  (Mostly to Vietnam, at the moment, some places in
Africa too)

> Then there is the lawyer factor.  Insurance, regulation, and litigation
> has made doing business in the US all but impossible.  It?s very expensive
> to try and do simple things in the US, yet in China, none of these hurdles
> exist.
>
> Add all these factors up and it?s easy to see where that $2 flashlight
> comes from.  This is most likely more than you ever wanted to know about a
> flashlight, so I?ll just go back to war now.

And, even so, it's only about 10 or 15% more expensive to make things
in the US.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Sep 15 17:43:04 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:43:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap vs. name tools (was: Levels)
In-Reply-To: <20080915102304.W91762@itonami.pair.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local><48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com><103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL><Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net><48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150945280.1274@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080915102304.W91762@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <6E5C3E264B0346319805FEDC720081C5@jdnet.deere.com>

>     :dunno:  Meanwhile John Deere and Caterpiller are cranking out
> tractors
> and engines here, and shipping them everywhere else.

Don't know about Cat, but Deere ships relatively little overseas.  Instead
they have manufacturing plants all over the world, including China and
Mexico.
http://tinyurl.com/6yow4e

Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Sep 15 19:04:25 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:04:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>

On 9/15/2008 Wayne wrote:
>  And I have a lot of cheap stuff 
> from Harbor Freight, Auto Zone and similar places.  For as often as I 
> use it, a cheap approximation of the correct tool is better than 
> beating 
> on it with a hammer!


And I'm (sorta) firmly in that camp, too.

Case in point:  Yesterday a friend of mine brought over the front axles 
and U-joints out of his Jeep Wrangler (that I sold him about two months 
ago).  He wanted to change the U joints and replace the front 
bearing/hub assemblies.  (BTW I gave him a hell of a deal on the jeep 
w/124K miles on it, so he knew it wasn't perfect.)

My home made but fairly beefy 10 ton arbor press wasn't doing much to 
press the old U-joints out.  He had also just bought a new Harbor 
Freight U-Joint press tool:> 
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38335

which we used with my 1/2" impact wrench, which pushed the old U-Joints 
right out of the yoke.

Snap-0n makes an almost identical tool:

> http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=&item_ID=75396&group_ID=1613&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

but it costs almost TEN TIMES as much.  And all it is is some cast iron, 
a threaded rod, and a couple of bushings.

Now, the Snap On tool is probably finished more nicely, and they may 
even have used some kind of special heat treated alloy steel in the 
threaded rod.  But ten times the cost?  That's nuts.

The Harbor Freight tool worked just fine, and even if we threw it away 
after one job we would still be money ahead of having a shop do the 
work.  Maybe it's not going to last as long as the Snap On tool, and 
we're not going to use it every day, but if we only use it three or four 
more times in the next ten years we are money ahead.  Plus, HF has a 
lifetime guarantee on all their hand tools, so if we break it, they'll 
probably just give us a new one.

BTW, I don't necessarily but the argument that lawyers drive up the cost 
of U.S. made goods.  H.F. sells their stuff in the U.S. through their 
retail outlets, so if someone gets hurt with one of their tools they may 
get sued regardless of where their tools are made.  However, one way the 
Chinese are money ahead is on R&D.  For a lot of the consumer goods they 
make they have ZERO R&D costs.  They just buy an example of something 
they know already sells, reverse engineer it, figure out how to make it 
cheaper, and start selling knockoffs.  Not having to pay R&D costs is 
probably a huge savings for them.

Dave C

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 15 19:30:13 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:30:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com> <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809151830q361f32e0q11e429dde50fda06@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 9:04 PM, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> On 9/15/2008 Wayne wrote:
>>  And I have a lot of cheap stuff
>> from Harbor Freight, Auto Zone and similar places.  For as often as I
>> use it, a cheap approximation of the correct tool is better than
>> beating
>> on it with a hammer!
>
>
> And I'm (sorta) firmly in that camp, too.
>
> Case in point:  Yesterday a friend of mine brought over the front axles
> and U-joints out of his Jeep Wrangler (that I sold him about two months
> ago).  He wanted to change the U joints and replace the front
> bearing/hub assemblies.  (BTW I gave him a hell of a deal on the jeep
> w/124K miles on it, so he knew it wasn't perfect.)
>
> My home made but fairly beefy 10 ton arbor press wasn't doing much to
> press the old U-joints out.  He had also just bought a new Harbor
> Freight U-Joint press tool:>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38335
>
> which we used with my 1/2" impact wrench, which pushed the old U-Joints
> right out of the yoke.
>

I had one of those (not from HF, but similar level of quality and
price).  I bought it to do spring bushings on my Land-Rover.  It did
one.  On the second, the threads came right off the threaded rod.

> Snap-0n makes an almost identical tool:
>
>> http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=&item_ID=75396&group_ID=1613&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
>
> but it costs almost TEN TIMES as much.  And all it is is some cast iron,
> a threaded rod, and a couple of bushings.
>
> Now, the Snap On tool is probably finished more nicely, and they may
> even have used some kind of special heat treated alloy steel in the
> threaded rod.  But ten times the cost?  That's nuts.

With Snap-On, you're paying for the name, of course.  A lot, some
times.  But you're also getting a very high quality tool.  You're also
paying for the interest free loans the drivers give people.  And
you're paying for the truck to come to you.  And for the level of
service you get from a good dealer.  (The guys I've dealt with would
bring us a replacement of something we really needed the same day, or
the next.  On one occasion, he had to find someone who had one to
borrow while our machine got fixed.)


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Sep 15 20:41:02 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:41:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Product Liability
In-Reply-To: <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com> <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <48CF1CBE.7010004@xxiii.com>

David C. wrote:
> BTW, I don't necessarily buy the argument that lawyers drive up the cost 
> of U.S. made goods.  H.F. sells their stuff in the U.S. through their 
> retail outlets, so if someone gets hurt with one of their tools they may 

Yeah, they're a favorite scapegoat, but I don't think they're hurting 
most small time manufacturing that badly.

OtOH, Do you have any good / amusing / gory product liability stories? 
I used to work at a division of the [now defunct] Black Clawson Co that 
made heavy machinery for the paper and recycling industry.  One of the 
main products was a "hydropulper" -- basically a gigantic blender that 
you could run tree stumps or bales of scrap paper into.  Custom designed 
in 6 - 14 foot diameters!  These were commonly mounted below the floor, 
so the top rim was a floor level (you can see where this is going! [no - 
not margaritas!])  Of course we had fence type things around them as a 
liability CYA -- the customers promptly removed those so they could 
bulldoze stuff right into them.  And all too often there were accidents 
and suicides of people going through them.  STOP the line!  Do we have 
any customer orders for PINK paper this week?!

   -Wayne

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Sep 15 23:30:11 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:30:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Product Liability
In-Reply-To: <48CF1CBE.7010004@xxiii.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com> <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
	<48CF1CBE.7010004@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <48CF4463.8070907@milleredp.com>

> liability CYA -- the customers promptly removed those so they could 
> bulldoze stuff right into them.  And all too often there were accidents 
> and suicides of people going through them.  STOP the line!  Do we have 
> any customer orders for PINK paper this week?!

I'll contribute $10 toward installing one in the Congress.

John.

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Tue Sep 16 20:47:50 2008
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:47:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360809091142y6d06e413q13c285091d73d844@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48C6A803.6060004@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091403500.772@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<ea2385360809091142y6d06e413q13c285091d73d844@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48D06FD6.4030103@comcast.net>

"No user servicable parts inside" is a challenge to me.  Bring it on!  (Also 
good for giving the lawyers fits.  I'm sure a lot of it is "well, if they can 
use a household tool to disassemble it, they will.  We'd better cover our butts 
with a bigger shield."

BTW, great use for an old Chinese nut driver :)
Donald.

Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> *Don't ya hate it when a manufactured does stuff like weird fastners . . ya
> gotta think it's an attempt to trhwart repairs so one will go buy a new one
> . . . or something.*
> **
> *My favorite was a Krupp coffee maker with a very unique oval button head
> screw, no slots,  buried in a deep recess . . I ground the sides off an old
> Chinese nut driver and made it work . . just to beat Krupp. *
> *Tony*

From mbarre at juno.com  Tue Sep 16 20:58:57 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:58:57 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] lift set-up
Message-ID: <20080916.225857.16894.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

I am finally setting up my (Complete Hydraulics) 4 post lift.  It is the type
where plastic blocks on each end of the cross bars ride inside the posts.  The
instructions call for greasing the inside of the posts.  Does anyone have
recommendations on lubricant for the inside of the posts?  Options range from
GP grease to silicone to dry film lubricant.  Just thought it would be worth a
query to see if any listers had some wisdom to share on this.
Thanks,
Matt
____________________________________________________________
Looking for insurance?  Click to compare and save big.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m275pZt430GY2mHjfuWHvwX9kl
qUBFC0C6RNRpadAXqeu8m/

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Sep 16 22:26:03 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:26:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] recessed triangular screw heads
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091117380.27750@thunder.banklogic.net><48C6A803.6060004@earthlink.net><Pine.LNX.4.64.0809091403500.772@thunder.banklogic.net><ea2385360809091142y6d06e413q13c285091d73d844@mail.gmail.com>
	<48D06FD6.4030103@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7F8167161BED4E11A9E41CF8D1DD8A80@KARL>

Do you have any old Chinese nutdrivers that don't spin in the handle ?  Most 
of my HF "bargain" ones do.

Karl



> BTW, great use for an old Chinese nut driver :)
> Donal 

From rickshank at banklogic.net  Tue Sep 16 22:29:59 2008
From: rickshank at banklogic.net (Rick Shank)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:29:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moving car with no wheel
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809170029480.31621@thunder.banklogic.net>

Hey folks,

First time poster here.   Let's say I need to move a car (3400 lbs) that is 
missing a rear wheel because of sheared studs.   I can't fix it where it's at, 
so I'll be putting it on an open car trailer and towing it to my garage.

Here's my idea at first glance.   Get some measurements from ground to 2 
attachment points (probably two points on rear lower control arm).  Weld up two 
cradles that will bolt/weld to a metal car dolley. Place the suspension onto 
that and use 1" tie downs to secure.   The roll/push/winch the thing onto the 
trailer.

Am I missing some overly simply way to do this?

No, swapping the studs where it's at isn't possible.   The car lost it's wheel 
during a track outing and I think I'll need to remove the entire knuckle and 
use a press to assist in separation.

Thanks,

~Ricky

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep 16 22:41:03 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:41:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moving car with no wheel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809170029480.31621@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20080917044103.ZJBT846.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Am I missing some overly simply way to do this?

Why not just put a HF car dolly under the drum/rotor?  For most cars, there
will be almost no weight on it anyway.  You could probably even get by with
just a wooden skid.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Sep 17 04:56:37 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 06:56:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moving car with no wheel
In-Reply-To: <20080917044103.ZJBT846.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809170029480.31621@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080917044103.ZJBT846.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080917065412.0202b8a0@cox.net>

At 12:41 AM 9/17/2008, Randall wrote:

 >Why not just put a HF car dolly under the drum/rotor?  For most cars, there
 >will be almost no weight on it anyway.  You could probably even get by with
 >just a wooden skid.

Somebody must have watched "The Worlds Fastest Indian".

He lost a wheel on his trailer.  So they jacked the trailer almost 
level, tied a
piece of wood to the axle and drove to someplace where he could fix it.
Great movie if anyone on the list hasn't seen it.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Sep 17 05:59:23 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 06:59:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] shameless appeal
Message-ID: <EAF40A19CF724096A14C955BC598A7BF@OwnerPC>

I know this isn't quite shop related... other than I get to spend some shop
time with my Grandson due to it... so waste a minute or two for me...

Some of you know of my grandson Cole and his battle with Cancer.. if not
here's the Cliff notes... 3 years old, strange symptoms... found brain
tumor... removed it, treated at St. Jude... he's 7 now he's still cancer
free...there's a lot of stuff in the middle that's icky, but the cancer free
part is the main deal.... do in no small part to St. Jude Children's Research
Hospital. I guess you can figure out it's MY charity.

Each year Chili's restaurant picks a day in Sept and 100% of their profit goes
to St. Jude... all of it... the whole money bag full... That day is Sept 29th
this year...

My daughter explains it and Chili's wonderful part in all this on Cole's
webpage... give it a read and take the family out for dinner on the 29th... it
couldn't be for a better cause...

CaringBridge.org - cole

thanks and give a listen to the song playing... "where angels hang around" by
James Otto... he nailed the situation perfectly...

John



http://usawakeup.org/
it's worth the time to read it

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of coolgleamA.gif]

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Sep 17 06:04:25 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 07:04:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] shameless appeal part II
Message-ID: <BCB5EF43E8154964A995387BBBFC6C49@OwnerPC>

well the message I just got from the forum... didn't interpret the link
properly... let's try this


www.caringbridge.org/al/cole/index.htm

sorry
john

http://usawakeup.org/
it's worth the time to read it

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Sep 17 08:32:48 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:32:48 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moving car with no wheel
Message-ID: <091720081432.27598.48D11510000BD10200006BCE22165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> Somebody must have watched "The Worlds Fastest Indian".

Worth it just for the shots of 60s Bonneville streamliners like "Challenger",  even if some of them were computer-generated.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Sep 17 10:52:24 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?

My son is 1.5 years old, and likes to imitate dad by turning his truck on 
its side and poking the wheel with a stick while he makes "wrrrrrr" noises 
(he saw me using some air tools to pull a wheel... :-)

Anyway, I don't want to give him a chainsaw or whatever, but I would like 
to give him some tools / a tool bench he can have fun with.

Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull enough 
that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself, us, or the 
house.

Pointers?

Mark

From mattw at webtripper.com  Wed Sep 17 12:34:40 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:34:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>

On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 12:52 -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?

> Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull enough 
> that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself, us, or the 
> house.

> Mark

I don't have any pointers yet, except for a tape measure, an 8 footer
would be perfect (I am picking one up next tool store trip).

I just got a Handy Manny dancing tool kit for my daughter and she loves
it ('Come on tools' :-)
My Dad wants a tool kit that will follow him around like Manny's does
(cartoon with talking tools that dance and jump into the tool box when
it's time to go).

I have been thinking the same thing for some real tools, she loves to
help me work on stuff.

The problem is that everything could be a weapon/cause destruction also,
but since she is almost 3 we can work on that.
Any ways what isn't a weapon?  
Baseball bat, riding unicorn on long pole, fishing rod (with hooks), the
list just goes on.

A little ball peen hammer, some screw drivers, pliers, crescent
wrench, ...?
Goggles.
When she get a little older a small hand saw, coping saw ...?

More importantly any one have any suggestions for kiddie projects?

We will be looking for fun indoor things to do this coming winter,
fishing season only lasts so long in N. IL.
Did I mention that Gracie makes me take her fishing, I'm so proud :-)
She gets tired of the park and then we have to go fishing, she loves the
outdoors and loves anything with an internal combustion engine, the
louder the better.
Shes the best (at least when she isn't being bad).

Thanks for bringing this up.

Matt Wehland

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Sep 17 11:47:13 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:47:13 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
Message-ID: <091720081747.1726.48D142A10009C8C1000006BE220702455304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

in my experience, there wasn't a tool that couldn't ultimately be used to cause harm to my son or nearby property, but he ended up with a few flathead screwdrivers, an adjustable wrench, a ratchet and sockets, and a very small dead-blow and claw hammer (because small boys *love* hammers).  I just had to watch him like a hawk.

a birdhouse was a good project.  he liked helping me around the house as well.  I made him a large bench/stool to stand on when working at something tall, or to work at himself when sitting on the floor.

we're about to start a go-kart, which reminds me, anybody have a good place for plans and parts?  it won't be an f-sae deal, but it will have suspension and hydraulic brakes (those and the engine/transmission  are coming from a motorcycle), but I need shocks, wheels, tires, hubs, suspension, etc.  we were going to design the whole thing ourselves, but we'd rather be building and driving now.

Scott

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>

> My son is 1.5 years old, and likes to imitate dad by turning his truck on 
> its side and poking the wheel with a stick while he makes "wrrrrrr" noises 
> (he saw me using some air tools to pull a wheel... :-)
> 
> Anyway, I don't want to give him a chainsaw or whatever, but I would like 
> to give him some tools / a tool bench he can have fun with.
> 
> Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull enough 
> that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself, us, or the 
> house.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Sep 17 12:05:49 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:05:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701DCBBB3@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
>
>
> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?
>
> My son is 1.5 years old, and likes to imitate dad

When my son was that age, I had to keep close tabs on him - he would try
to get tools out of my roll-around, especially screw drivers - he loved
screw drivers.  I re-arranged the tools in the box so that he couldn't
reach them any more, but then I caught him pulling out the lower drawers
and using them as steps to get to the screw drivers in the top drawers.

I finally gave in, and gave him a "screw driver" - actually a
replaceable bit drive handle without the bits.  Yes it was dangerous,
but not nearly as dangerous as a "real" screw driver (he would grab them
when I was working on things and not paying close enough attention to
him).  The drive handle kept him happy and he couldn't do any harm to
things with it (well not much anyway).

I tried the plastic "toy" tools, but he knew the difference and wanted
real metal ones.

He also loved hammering things (I'd have to let him hammer nails when I
could) so I also gave him a small rubber/plastic tipped hammer, and he
would go around hammering everything around.

He's 27 now, so obviously he managed to survive.  Now he helps himself
to the tool box when ever he wants to (doesn't even have to use the
drawers as steps) and helps me work on cars as necessary.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Wed Sep 17 12:46:41 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:46:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Matt,

Take a look at the available tape measures to be sure that the edges of 
the tape is not sharp enough to cut. I use 30' tapes (Stanley, FatMax, 
etc.) and if you are not paying attention when you have the tape rewind 
and your finger is against the edge, you can get a pretty painful cut!

It might be good to release some of the tension on the tape so it will 
retract slower, or just by a junk tape that doesn't retract fast from 
the start!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Matt Wehland:
> On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 12:52 -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
>   
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?
>>     
>
>   
>> Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull enough 
>> that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself, us, or the 
>> house.
>>     
>
>   
>> Mark
>>     
>
> I don't have any pointers yet, except for a tape measure, an 8 footer
> would be perfect (I am picking one up next tool store trip).
>   
<snip>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 17 13:04:41 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:04:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop> 
	<48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>

My 3-yr old daughter liked to measure stuff with a kids tape measure, the real
ones are too sharp IMO.
Then the plastic tape broke, so we had to retire it.

The best thing I can suggest from experience is to get them involved with
actually helping.  I had my daughter spackle some screwholes in some new
drywall last week, she loved it, though she got more spackle on her hand than
the wall!

Let them help carry a piece of wood, hand you something when you're on the
ladder, or glue something together (do they make nitrile gloves for 3-yr old
hands?) they love helping daddy/grandpa.

My daughters favorite tools now are in her doctors kit, including a real
stethoscope and flashlight.

PJ


> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:46:41 -0500
> From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com
> To: mattw at webtripper.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
>
> Matt,
>
> Take a look at the available tape measures to be sure that the edges of
> the tape is not sharp enough to cut. I use 30' tapes (Stanley, FatMax,
> etc.) and if you are not paying attention when you have the tape rewind
> and your finger is against the edge, you can get a pretty painful cut!
>
> It might be good to release some of the tension on the tape so it will
> retract slower, or just by a junk tape that doesn't retract fast from
> the start!
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Thusly spake Matt Wehland:
>> On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 12:52 -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
>>
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull enough
>>> that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself, us, or the
>>> house.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> I don't have any pointers yet, except for a tape measure, an 8 footer
>> would be perfect (I am picking one up next tool store trip).
>>
>
>
> --
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
> (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From lspector at gmail.com  Wed Sep 17 13:41:44 2008
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:41:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
	<48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>
	<BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <167503c10809171241p48385802ge74358cf56829755@mail.gmail.com>

I built my son a workbench that was right sized for him when he was
~3. Gave him goggles, a cloth tape measure (try a craft store), a
socket wrench and a couple of screwdrivers. I also pre-drilled some
scrap wood and stuck some nails in it. He loved banging the nails in
(with supervision), and I could pull them back out with my fingers!

He's 10 now, and has taken apart many of his toys. Once in a while he
even puts them back together...

-Larry

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 3:04 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> My 3-yr old daughter liked to measure stuff with a kids tape measure, the real
> ones are too sharp IMO.
> Then the plastic tape broke, so we had to retire it.
>
> The best thing I can suggest from experience is to get them involved with
> actually helping.  I had my daughter spackle some screwholes in some new
> drywall last week, she loved it, though she got more spackle on her hand than
> the wall!
>
> Let them help carry a piece of wood, hand you something when you're on the
> ladder, or glue something together (do they make nitrile gloves for 3-yr old
> hands?) they love helping daddy/grandpa.
>
> My daughters favorite tools now are in her doctors kit, including a real
> stethoscope and flashlight.
>
> PJ
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:46:41 -0500
>> From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com
>> To: mattw at webtripper.com
>> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
>>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Take a look at the available tape measures to be sure that the edges of
>> the tape is not sharp enough to cut. I use 30' tapes (Stanley, FatMax,
>> etc.) and if you are not paying attention when you have the tape rewind
>> and your finger is against the edge, you can get a pretty painful cut!
>>
>> It might be good to release some of the tension on the tape so it will
>> retract slower, or just by a junk tape that doesn't retract fast from
>> the start!
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>> Thusly spake Matt Wehland:
>>> On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 12:52 -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Howdy,
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull enough
>>>> that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself, us, or the
>>>> house.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't have any pointers yet, except for a tape measure, an 8 footer
>>> would be perfect (I am picking one up next tool store trip).
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
>> (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001
>> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
>> www.hornesystemstx.com

From mattw at webtripper.com  Wed Sep 17 17:25:12 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:25:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
	<48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>
	<BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1221693912.6468.354.camel@mattw-laptop>

Thanks for all the advice.

I just got back from a shopping trip and picked up a 10' tape measure.
I will have to check how sharp the edges are.

Thanks for the all the cautions about the sharp edged tape measure (I
get several private emails about this also).

We also picked up a real narrow set of needle nose pliers for hook
removal (and to smash down the barbs so that they will come out easier,
both of the fish and us ).

Thanks,

Matt

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Sep 17 16:54:59 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:54:59 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
Message-ID: <091720082254.26414.48D18AC30002D5340000672E22155754749D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Matt Wehland <mattw at webtripper.com>
> I just got back from a shopping trip and picked up a 10' tape measure.
> I will have to check how sharp the edges are.
> 
> Thanks for the all the cautions about the sharp edged tape measure (I
> get several private emails about this also).

Another trick for kids is to give them a yo-yo with a flexible fiberglass tape instead of steel.  My wife carries one in her purse.  It's the kind she uses for sewing.  The kids don't seem to care that they always need two hands to use it.  They are used to seeing Gramma use it to measure furniture or items in the hardware store.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Wed Sep 17 16:55:01 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:55:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chemical rust remover?
Message-ID: <BA683E121B4848A2B3182E368B52698E@Waynehouseputer>

I'm refurbing an older woodstove that has some rust on the outer skin. I've
used a knotted wire brush on a 4" grinder to get most of it off but there is
still some present in the small craters. I was wondering if there is any
sort of chemical rust remover that would clean the rest of it up before I
paint it? Preferably something that can be purchased at a retail store vs.
online.

 

Thanks

Wayne

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Sep 17 17:04:11 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:04:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chemical rust remover?
In-Reply-To: <BA683E121B4848A2B3182E368B52698E@Waynehouseputer>
References: <BA683E121B4848A2B3182E368B52698E@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080917190021.02050550@cox.net>

At 06:55 PM 9/17/2008, cornerexit wrote:

 >I'm refurbing an older woodstove that has some rust on the outer skin. I've
 >used a knotted wire brush on a 4" grinder to get most of it off but there is
 >still some present in the small craters. I was wondering if there is any
 >sort of chemical rust remover that would clean the rest of it up before I
 >paint it? Preferably something that can be purchased at a retail store vs.
 >online.

Wayne,

While I'm not expert on the subject, I don't think there is such a product.
I usually use something like you did, the knotted wire wheel on the 4" grinder,
or I'll sandblast it.

Most of the chemical type stuff is mostly phosphoric acid and will mostly just
take care of surface rust.  No if that's all that's in the craters, 
that's fine.
Also the paint will help keep those spots from rusting as the seal the Oxygen
from the metal.

The only other thing I can think of would be a very small cutting bur on a
dremil tool.

John


>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as jblair1948 at cox.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

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If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From brabel at comcast.net  Wed Sep 17 17:19:10 2008
From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:19:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop> 
	<48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>
	<BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6832A80F-89F4-468F-8368-52972F727489@comcast.net>

Another great 'helping' routine is when you're working on plumbing  
under the sink. Put a wrench around some sort of fitting nearby and  
have your 'apprentice' hold it still. Tell 'em it's really important  
that they hold the fitting in place while you do whatever you're doing.

> The best thing I can suggest from experience is to get them involved  
> with
> actually helping.  I had my daughter spackle some screwholes in some  
> new
> drywall last week, she loved it, though she got more spackle on her  
> hand than
> the wall!
>
> Let them help carry a piece of wood, hand you something when you're  
> on the
> ladder, or glue something together (do they make nitrile gloves for  
> 3-yr old
> hands?) they love helping daddy/grandpa.


- Bill Rabel
   Anacortes, WA
   2 grandsons, 6 and 4

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Sep 17 17:21:52 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:21:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chemical rust remover?
In-Reply-To: <BA683E121B4848A2B3182E368B52698E@Waynehouseputer>
References: <BA683E121B4848A2B3182E368B52698E@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809171621r6b13c755n3817959d393a1a57@mail.gmail.com>

*I bought at our local Home Depot:*
*a Klean Strip product:*
*"Phosphoric Prep & Etch" which is sold for rust removal and concrete
etching.  $13.00 a gallon.*
*If I remove the surface rust mechanically, it has been a permanent rust
stabilizing prep before priming and painting.  That is including pits and
small craters.  Someone clever explained that the acid converts oxides to
phosphates which are stable and over the years, it's worked well for me.*



On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm refurbing an older woodstove that has some rust on the outer skin. I've
> used a knotted wire brush on a 4" grinder to get most of it off but there
> is
> still some present in the small craters. I was wondering if there is any
> sort of chemical rust remover that would clean the rest of it up before I
> paint it? Preferably something that can be purchased at a retail store vs.
> online.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Sep 17 17:30:30 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:30:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <1221693912.6468.354.camel@mattw-laptop>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
	<48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>
	<BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
	<1221693912.6468.354.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <48D19316.8090900@dimebank.com>

It's funny how times change. I'm not a parent, so I'm only qualified to observe, 
not comment - and I'm aware of that.

When I was a kid, no more than 4 (this would be 1961 or so), there was a line of 
toy kids tools - faithful miniature wrenches, screwdrivers, etc. They were 
plastic and chromed. I was fascinated with them, as any kid would be, and ended 
up with enough of them that a favorite aunt sewed me a machinist's apron with a 
pocket for each one.

Now, this was in a time before there was too much worry about toys that kids 
could swallow ... and also before anyone worried that one of the miniatures was 
a working, sharp, handsaw...

From nick at landform.co.uk  Wed Sep 17 17:36:18 2008
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:36:18 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <48D19472.2000506@landform.co.uk>

Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?
>
>   
Mark,

We went to see a cousin of mine the other day who has several grandsons 
3yrs and up. I was very impressed with a simple work bench he'd made for 
them with a joiner's vice (not engineers). He gave them corks (ex wine 
bottles) for materials so they could cut them with a junior hacksaw, the 
fine teeth being less likely to damage small hands and the frame is 
better suited. The corks took nails easily so they could make up models 
in a very impressive way. Learning to handle tools confidently and 
safely at a young age is the key and this seemed to work very well.

Wish I'd thought of that with my son, I bought him his own socket set 
and a screwdriver. Which he promptly used to tunnel into a wall to 
investigate the wiring on a power outlet. The socket set was speedily 
swapped for small Massey Ferguson overalls and he was encouraged to play 
outside well away from any power supplies...

Nick Brearley

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Sep 17 17:49:46 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:49:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <1221693912.6468.354.camel@mattw-laptop>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
	<48D15091.5000505@HorneSystemsTx.com>
	<BAY108-W27D5A282F2E0D9E3C5B1A29A4C0@phx.gbl>
	<1221693912.6468.354.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171946360.2342@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Matt Wehland wrote:
> I just got back from a shopping trip and picked up a 10' tape measure.
> I will have to check how sharp the edges are.
>
> Thanks for the all the cautions about the sharp edged tape measure (I
> get several private emails about this also).

Thanks from me too for the various advice.

I've already given my son (1.5 years old) a tape measure... Its a little 
1/2" by 12' or whatever HF deal.  I was worried about the edge & moving 
fast on retraction, but it doesn't retract all that horribly fast and I 
guess I'm also not going to freak out if he nicks himself.

He's also played with a 33'x1" tape measure, and that one retracts pretty 
quick... He hasn't managed to hurt himself with that yet either.

We measure things occasionally... He likes to hold the end while we get 
further apart.  :-)

I like the idea of a screwdriver with the bits removed... I think I've got 
one I can donate to that cause, and I bet he'll like it.  :-)  Thanks!

Mark

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Sep 17 19:12:02 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:12:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <48D19472.2000506@landform.co.uk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48D19472.2000506@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BA228520FB654FBBAC50C7C4BEF423AD@HPPavilion>

> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?

Not quite a bench, or for a 3 year old, but my 13 year old son has had a
tool box for the past five or so years and whenever anyone is stumped for a
Birthday or other present, we tell them to get him some real tools.

jib

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 17 20:17:20 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:17:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chemical rust remover?
References: <BA683E121B4848A2B3182E368B52698E@Waynehouseputer>
	<ea2385360809171621r6b13c755n3817959d393a1a57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8EF4A5D00D604B5BBA7C27574E656AFE@KARL>

> *I bought at our local Home Depot:*
> *a Klean Strip product:*
> *"Phosphoric Prep & Etch" which is sold for rust removal and concrete
> etching.  $13.00 a gallon.*
> *If I remove the surface rust mechanically, it has been a permanent rust
> stabilizing prep before priming and painting.  That is including pits and
> small craters.  Someone clever explained that the acid converts oxides to
> phosphates which are stable and over the years, it's worked well for me.*


Absolutely.  Phosphoric acid is the active ingredient in most "metal prep" 
priducts, and it works on aluminum too.  For a final treatment, you might 
want / need to use a conversion coating product, typically available at 
automotive or industrial paint jobbers.  You'll know if you need it, ,if 
flash rusting occurs after you wash off the phosphoric acid.

Given that you're working on a wood stove, I'm not sure that you would have 
good luck with Locktite "Rust Reformer" or the latex-based products, due to 
the heat, but for other things those products are a nice shortcut, leaving a 
durable and paintable black finish where the rust once was.

I've recently discovered another power of phosphoric acid.  You know how 
it's virtually impossible to thoroughly clean brake calipers, wheel 
cylinders, etc. without blasting them ?  I still haven't built or bought a 
blast cabinet, and I hate to pay for that work, particularly on stuff that 
could be ruined by a careless workman.

After trying every other cleaning method I had available and still having 
some brake dust and rust embedded, I soaked some cast iron caliper halves 
and wheel cylinders in diluted phosphoric acid solution.  Like magic !  It 
removed all the residue, rust, even paint in the corners I couldn't easily 
reach.  It does stink though - gotta do it outside or in a detached garage.

One caution -- don't leave stuff, particularly steel, soaking for more than 
a couple of hours.  Cast iron is pretty impervious and I've left it in for 
days, but I ruined some steel brake bleeders by soaking them too long.  The 
acid ate the sharp parts of the threads off, and they easily stripped.  The 
threads in the iron were perfect - I just had to replace the bleeders.

Karl

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Sep 17 20:55:22 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:55:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
Message-ID: <BAY101-W717DDDD7E6C3FF5704035CC4F0@phx.gbl>

I just heard back from my brother and thought I'd close the loop and let
everyone know the final result:

'So the end of the story is that there was water throughout the engine and
exhaust system.  He changed all the fluids and the mass air flow meter
(whatever that is) and it works fine.  He said that I was lucky my engine
still worked, and he had a Saab in the shop right then that the floods had
ruined the engine.  Anyway, it cost $1,200 and my insurance company will cover
all but $250.   Not a bad result.'

It was potentially as bad as everyone suspected, but he got lucky.  Thanks
again to everyone who provided input on potential problems and solutions.

Jim (and David) Stone

> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:04:49 -0400
> From: jdrush at enter.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Flooding Stalled Car
>
> Jim Stone wrote:
> > It seems unlikely to me that the water could have gotten into the engine
with
> > only a foot of water and I can't believe Volvo would put sensitive
electronics
> > where they would have been damaged by only a foot of water.  For now, he
is
> > leaving the car in the garage and letting everything dry out before trying
it
> > again.  In the meantime, does anyone have any advice for him or thoughts
on
> > what might have gone wrong?
>
> Volvo like to put cool air intakes towards the front, behind the grille.
> No specific knowledge of the S80, but all the rest of mine have had one
> located there. Hit high water with enough speed and the bow wake can
> raise the water level enough to get sucked into the intake and wrecking
> the motor. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but it is well enough known in
> Volvo circles for this to happen.
>
> Hoping for the best,
> Jon
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of
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From racertod at racertodd.com  Wed Sep 17 21:19:45 2008
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:19:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080917200911.00c09d88@mail.blarg.net>

         Speaking of tape measures for a child, I have a 3-foot keychain 
tape measure like this:
<http://www.ultimatekeychains.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=249> 
Also can be found on eBay.
         Just the size for small hands.  No sharp edges on mine (put tape 
in my mouth to test).  Doesn't it retract too fast.
         I actually carry it on my keychain - as a delivery driver I need 
to know dimensions of packages I'm carrying so I can charge appropriately.

         This might keep him busy for a bit.  88 pieces!  I would've killed 
for this as a kid!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160282883709


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 268,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       178,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Thu Sep 18 00:01:43 2008
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:01:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F0C323F3E@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>

When my son was really young I would not give him his own tools but
he could use some of mine.  He was 3-4 and we would do things like:

bird house (really simple to make from a single cedar fence board)

small thing square can be decorated (with paint or markers) to make
a trivet or similar for grandma.

small stool for easier access to the sink.

...

He is older now and we are in the planning stages for a playhose/fort


Stuart.




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Wehland [mailto:mattw at webtripper.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:35 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
>
> On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 12:52 -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
> > Howdy,
> >
> > Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?
>
> > Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull
> > enough that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself,
> > us, or the house.
>
> > Mark
>
> I don't have any pointers yet, except for a tape measure, an
> 8 footer would be perfect (I am picking one up next tool store trip).
>
> I just got a Handy Manny dancing tool kit for my daughter and
> she loves it ('Come on tools' :-) My Dad wants a tool kit
> that will follow him around like Manny's does (cartoon with
> talking tools that dance and jump into the tool box when it's
> time to go).
>
> I have been thinking the same thing for some real tools, she
> loves to help me work on stuff.
>
> The problem is that everything could be a weapon/cause
> destruction also, but since she is almost 3 we can work on that.
> Any ways what isn't a weapon?
> Baseball bat, riding unicorn on long pole, fishing rod (with
> hooks), the list just goes on.
>
> A little ball peen hammer, some screw drivers, pliers,
> crescent wrench, ...?
> Goggles.
> When she get a little older a small hand saw, coping saw ...?
>
> More importantly any one have any suggestions for kiddie projects?
>
> We will be looking for fun indoor things to do this coming
> winter, fishing season only lasts so long in N. IL.
> Did I mention that Gracie makes me take her fishing, I'm so
> proud :-) She gets tired of the park and then we have to go
> fishing, she loves the outdoors and loves anything with an
> internal combustion engine, the louder the better.
> Shes the best (at least when she isn't being bad).
>
> Thanks for bringing this up.
>
> Matt Wehland
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
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>
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>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jem at milleredp.com  Wed Sep 17 23:41:55 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:41:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <0K7200I3GZ5LH930@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
	<FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
	<ea2385360809111636p7abaaab7y1bb906e194f911d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48CA344A.2050108@milleredp.com>
	<0K7200I3GZ5LH930@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <48D1EA23.7060805@milleredp.com>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> Cool.  Did you have them all interconnected so that all the tubes would 
> show the same level?  Sort of a water level octopus?
>
>> I made four of 'em when I was checking the well-bashed '65 Mustang
>> convertible to see how square it was - one across each the front and
>> rear suspension pickup points, then two front-left/right-rear,
>> front-right/left-rear.

No, I wasn't necessarily trying to measure the same heights for 
everything, though I suppose I could have made it work that way. 
Side-to-side I used them to shim the car level on the jackstands, then 
the cross-measurement (combined with a bunch of plumb-bobs and some tape 
on the floor) more or less confirmed that the car was square within the 
(1/16in or so) tolerances of my measuring equipment.

John.

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Sep 18 04:13:51 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:13:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <002a01c91977$40300020$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> Can anyone recommend a fun kids tool bench / kids tools?

The one you two build together.  Be it out of old pallets or fresh lumber 
you two go down to the store and buy together.  Wrong dimensions and all.

> Ideally the tools wouldn't be easy to swallow, and would be dull enough
> that he'd have to work hard to cause destruction to himself, us, or the
> house.

Those are called good tools.  And you two should go get them together.  When 
I'm old, grey and senile, I'll still remember the times we've spent together 
at the hardware store going through tools together, teaching him what they 
do, and selecting his first hammer.  That little hammer will never leave.

Our first big project was building a storage cabinet that fits under my old 
Shopsmith.  I wanted to include him in the job.  Neither my wife nor I knew 
that this typical 5 year old ding-a-ling would suddenly focus intensely for 
the entire weekend it took to build the unit.  From how I squared a corner 
to accounting for saw blade kerf width, controlling punchout of the wood as 
the drill bit exited the hole to sanding the edges smooth, he was engrossed 
by it all.

Did the project take longer with his help?  Certainly!  And never will I 
forget the look on his face when I handed him the drill to place the final 
mounting hole for the hanging bracket.  He'd been using the power tools with 
me, four hands holding the drill.  But when I handed him the drill, his jaw 
dropped and his spine stiffened.  He could do the job, and I knew it.  So 
stern and serious was his expression as he carefully placed the bit against 
the wood, right on the mark.  Keeping it square he spun it up drove it 
through, remembering to keep it spinning as he pulled it back out.  The 
pride on his little face...

Today he's 7, soon to be 8.  He's used my drills, my circular saw, my 
bandsaw and others.  He knows how to check the oil in all the cars, and how 
to check the antifreeze and tire pressure as well.  He's rotated the tires 
and even swapped summer tires onto mommies car.  Last week, he got to do a 
repair all by himself.  Mommies car had a vacuum leak under the dashboard 
from a broken t-fitting.  I showed him how to find it, how to remove the 
broken fitting, and how to install a new one.  He did the job, not me.

Nothing is as wonderfull as him tearing off to grab his toolbox to come help 
me work on something.

So go and buy him some good screwdrivers, and good wrenches.  Have him work 
with you on the car and around the house.  Bring home a broken vacuum 
cleaner from a trashcan to disassemble.  Build a wooden airplane with him, a 
wire car, an origami cat.  Heck, my son was delighted with the yarn I 
dangled from the ceiling fan switch in his room so he could change the speed 
and turn the light on and off.  Very high tech, but HE was involved, so HE 
owned the project and the idea.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Thu Sep 18 06:56:11 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:56:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kids tool bench
In-Reply-To: <002a01c91977$40300020$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809171250030.22795@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<1221676480.6468.348.camel@mattw-laptop>
	<002a01c91977$40300020$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809180853250.22975@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Nolan wrote:
> So go and buy him some good screwdrivers, and good wrenches.  Have him 
> work with you on the car and around the house.  Bring home a broken 
> vacuum cleaner from a trashcan to disassemble.  Build a wooden airplane 
> with him, a wire car, an origami cat.  Heck, my son was delighted with 
> the yarn I dangled from the ceiling fan switch in his room so he could 
> change the speed and turn the light on and off.  Very high tech, but HE 
> was involved, so HE owned the project and the idea.

Patience... My son is only one and a half, so he's a bit young yet for 
even concentrating on a project or being in the garage with me if I'm 
doing anything other than watching him.

But... getting better, particularly in learning what "no" means when he's 
doing something he shouldn't (and either does or doesn't know it... 
Knowing it just means he looks at me first to see if it'll be ok _this_ 
time..... :-)

Thanks for the story though... Your pride in your son came through loud 
and clear.  It was cool.  :-)

Mark

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Sep 18 09:28:37 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:28:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas tank glop
Message-ID: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>

Finally finished Jill's MG and now I finally get to work on my "new" TR4.

The PO had "restored" it and then parked it for 25+ years, with a full tank of
gas.  He then pulled it out of storage and spent a couple of days trying to
get it running - on the old gas.  Incredible how bad it smells.

I've removed all of the fuel system, and most of it is straightforward to
clean and rebuild.  However, the gas tank has a thick sediment on the bottom -
not grit, not rust, just (apparently) decomposed unleaded gasoline.

I don't have a reliable radiator shop nearby to "boil" it out, though I can
take it 50 miles to a good guy if necessary.  I won't use "Gas Tank Renu" (if
they're still around) because I don't want a big hole cut in this
otherwise-beautiful, solid tank.

Looks like it might come out fairly easily with the right solvent, and that's
what I plan to try before going to more extreme measures.  I'll get the gas
gauge sending unit out first, of course, make proper plugs for the openings,
and put some brass nuts and bolts into the tank (only if necessary) to help
scrape the sludge off.

My only question is what solvent will be most effective.  In the absence of
any better ideas, I'll start with lacquer thinner, but before I start pouring
expensive solvents into it, anyone seen this glop and know of something that
works better ??

Thanks !
Karl

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Thu Sep 18 10:04:04 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:04:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas tank glop
In-Reply-To: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
References: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701E11D00@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Karl Vacek wrote:
>
> My only question is what solvent will be most effective.  In
> the absence of any better ideas, I'll start with lacquer
> thinner, but before I start pouring expensive solvents into
> it, anyone seen this glop and know of something that
> works better ??

Basically, the glop is varnish - it's what's left after the rest of the
gasoline evaporates/settles out of the gasoline.

When I did my Elan many years ago, I had the same problem.  If I
remember correctly, I used some paint thinner that I had, and mixed in
some carb cleaner (the kind that comes in a can that you dip the parts
into).  It worked just fine on my tank...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com  Thu Sep 18 10:12:17 2008
From: bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com (Brian Warrick)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:12:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas tank glop
In-Reply-To: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
References: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
Message-ID: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684F16C20@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>

My Dad had a similar situation last summer with a '29 Model A Tudor he
purchased.  It was freshly restored 20 years ago and had sat with half a
tank of gas.  He ran E85 gasoline and it cleaned the tank right up.  You
could see the yellow gas in the sediment bowl as it was cleaning, and
eventually the gas turned white as the tank cleaned out.

He also used E85 in the carburetor of a Fairbanks Morse, 5 Hp stationary
engine.  The fuel inlet line has a check ball that will stick from gummy
fuel if it sits too long.  He poured the carb full of E85 and within an
hour the check ball was free.

I would fill the tank with E85, add nuts and bolt, slosh around a few
times a day and drain it in a week and see what it looks like.

Brian

>My only question is what solvent will be most effective.  In the
absence of
>any better ideas, I'll start with lacquer thinner, but before I start
>pouring
>expensive solvents into it, anyone seen this glop and know of something
>that
>works better ??

From ericm at lne.com  Thu Sep 18 14:02:41 2008
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:02:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas tank glop
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684F16C20@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
References: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
	<572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684F16C20@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <20080918200241.GF28509@slack.lne.com>

If the E85 doesn't work, use carb cleaner.  The kind in
the gallon can. It's a lot stronger than the spray kind.
It can eat plastics, even fuel-safe ones, so beware.

Have a plan for disposing the results.  For small amounts
from motorcycles I have just put it in with the oil to be
recycled but for any significant amount that would be a bad idea.

You might consider doing it outside.  The old fuel smell
seems to get into stuff in the garage and stick around long
after the old fuel is gone.


Eric

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Sep 18 14:47:10 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:47:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas tank glop
In-Reply-To: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
Message-ID: <921445.66434.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If it's gum, how about Gumout?
On sale, those spray cans are about the same price per
quart as any common solvent. 

Doug


--- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> My only question is what solvent will be most
> effective.  In the absence of
> any better ideas, I'll start with lacquer thinner,
> but before I start pouring
> expensive solvents into it, anyone seen this glop
> and know of something that
> works better ??

From mattw at webtripper.com  Thu Sep 18 20:07:17 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:07:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lift set-up
In-Reply-To: <20080916.225857.16894.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080916.225857.16894.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <1221790037.6468.381.camel@mattw-laptop>

On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 02:58 +0000, Matt wrote:
> I am finally setting up my (Complete Hydraulics) 4 post lift.  It is the type
> where plastic blocks on each end of the cross bars ride inside the posts.  The
> instructions call for greasing the inside of the posts.  Does anyone have
> recommendations on lubricant for the inside of the posts?  Options range from
> GP grease to silicone to dry film lubricant.  Just thought it would be worth a
> query to see if any listers had some wisdom to share on this.
> Thanks,
> Matt

IIRC we just used wheel bearing grease on my Dad's lifts.
Plenty of it.

I don't think I would use silicone or any light type grease on it.

One thing I would look at when assembling any more lifts is rust
proofing/extra coating the plates that touch the ground.

My dad's are showing signs of rust.
While they are heavy metal, I still worry about them weakening due to
rust (especially if they have battery acid spilled on them and live in a
area that uses salt).

Matt Wehland

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Sep 18 19:17:30 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:17:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] lift set-up
In-Reply-To: <1221790037.6468.381.camel@mattw-laptop>
References: <20080916.225857.16894.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
	<1221790037.6468.381.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <48D2FDAA.8070907@milleredp.com>

>> instructions call for greasing the inside of the posts.  Does anyone have
>> recommendations on lubricant for the inside of the posts?  

On my Bend-Pak I used McMaster-Carr P/N 1073K73 aerosol cable and 
open-gear lubricant, and I just spritzed a little on the blocks as well 
as on the cables.

John.

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 19 14:58:10 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas tank glop
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1221760802.28477.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <593662.12614.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I just happened to see this while looking for other stuff.  If you have a Schucks/Kragen/Murrays near you, maybe you can find this there.  Definitely should work, since it's made for it...

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryCode=3230&CloseoutFlag=1

From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>

> My only question is what solvent will be most effective. 
> In the absence of
> any better ideas, I'll start with lacquer thinner, but
> before I start pouring
> expensive solvents into it, anyone seen this glop and know
> of something that
> works better ??

From bill at gingerich.us  Sat Sep 20 15:48:45 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:48:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window vs. Through-the-wall Air Conditioners
Message-ID: <06EE9E4FDEC74E2D88B42B05CD81D63A@shack2>

I would like to mount an AC unit through the wall of my garage.  When I look
at prices, the ones designed to mount through-the-wall are significantly
more expensive than regular window units.  So, what it the difference?  Is
there any reason I couldn't cut the appropriate size hole in the wall, and
mount a window unit in the hole?  Of course I need to seal around the unit,
make sure condensation can drain, etc.  It just seems like it should work.
Am I missing something here?

 

BillG

OKC   

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Sat Sep 20 15:54:12 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:54:12 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window vs. Through-the-wall Air Conditioners
In-Reply-To: <06EE9E4FDEC74E2D88B42B05CD81D63A@shack2>
References: <06EE9E4FDEC74E2D88B42B05CD81D63A@shack2>
Message-ID: <5F8647EB1C2E4C1696AD19E1207923F3@DesktopPC>

I'm no expert here, but I think what you'll be missing
is the sound of the compressor and the noise of the
external fan unit.  I'm not sure it's worth the cost difference
for a garage application, but I'd certainly consider it if it
was in my bedroom.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window vs. Through-the-wall Air Conditioners


>I would like to mount an AC unit through the wall of my garage.  When 
>I look
> at prices, the ones designed to mount through-the-wall are 
> significantly
> more expensive than regular window units.  So, what it the 
> difference?  Is
> there any reason I couldn't cut the appropriate size hole in the 
> wall, and
> mount a window unit in the hole?  Of course I need to seal around 
> the unit,
> make sure condensation can drain, etc.  It just seems like it should 
> work.
> Am I missing something here?
>
>
>
> BillG
>
> OKC

From pethier at comcast.net  Sat Sep 20 15:54:22 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:54:22 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window vs. Through-the-wall Air Conditioners
Message-ID: <092020082154.16436.48D5710E000402630000403422155517249D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

As long as the unit has interior access in the right place, exterior access in the right place, and is tilted so the water runs outside, I don't see the problem.

They did this at a small machine shop I used to run at a company that made excavation buckets.  They just sawcut a hole in the concrete-block wall, lined it with sheetmetal, and stuffed the window unit in.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us>
> I would like to mount an AC unit through the wall of my garage.  When I look
> at prices, the ones designed to mount through-the-wall are significantly
> more expensive than regular window units.  So, what it the difference?  Is
> there any reason I couldn't cut the appropriate size hole in the wall, and
> mount a window unit in the hole?  Of course I need to seal around the unit,
> make sure condensation can drain, etc.  It just seems like it should work.
> Am I missing something here?
> 
>  
> 
> BillG
> 
> OKC   
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Sep 20 16:24:32 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:24:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window vs. Through-the-wall Air Conditioners
In-Reply-To: <06EE9E4FDEC74E2D88B42B05CD81D63A@shack2>
Message-ID: <20080920222432.KVGI25689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Is there 
> any reason I couldn't cut the appropriate size hole in the 
> wall, and mount a window unit in the hole?

IMO, no.  But most window units like to be supported, so I'd plan on adding
a shelf to support the outer part of the unit.

Randall

From burdickm at mindspring.com  Sat Sep 20 16:55:33 2008
From: burdickm at mindspring.com (Michael Burdick)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:55:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window vs. Through-the-wall Air Conditioners
In-Reply-To: <1221951072.1890.7.camel@Ladybird>
References: <06EE9E4FDEC74E2D88B42B05CD81D63A@shack2>
	<1221951072.1890.7.camel@Ladybird>
Message-ID: <1221951333.1890.10.camel@Ladybird>

I've done exactly what you propose, and it works fine.  I did build a
frame into the wall to support the unit.  I also ran a dedicated circuit
for the air conditioner from the subpanel I have in the garage.  

Hope this helps,
Mike Burdick
Durham, NC

On Sat, 2008-09-20 at 16:48 -0500, Bill Gingerich wrote:
> I would like to mount an AC unit through the wall of my garage.  When I look
> at prices, the ones designed to mount through-the-wall are significantly
> more expensive than regular window units.  So, what it the difference?  Is
> there any reason I couldn't cut the appropriate size hole in the wall, and
> mount a window unit in the hole?  Of course I need to seal around the unit,
> make sure condensation can drain, etc.  It just seems like it should work.
> Am I missing something here?
> 
>  
> 
> BillG
> 
> OKC   

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sat Sep 20 17:47:47 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:47:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Levels
In-Reply-To: <48D1EA23.7060805@milleredp.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080911191314.02065670@cox.net>
	<FFCA0823701C43208F4E40C92BB64EA1@shack2>
	<ea2385360809111636p7abaaab7y1bb906e194f911d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48CA344A.2050108@milleredp.com>
	<0K7200I3GZ5LH930@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<48D1EA23.7060805@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809201647x4e5d37cydfba13b0be3db7d2@mail.gmail.com>

*Before this thread dies, I've gotta mention our use of liquid tube levels.
We race in vintage racing events, a Lotus 51 formula Ford and if one wishes
to do well, the corner weights and alignment are critical.  We
have"Longacre" digital corner scales to help in this effort and they require
tedious leveling in order to be accurate . . I devised a liquid level with
the tubes connected to a pair of common black & chrome woodworkers
squares and we get the level equalized with 3 A/B comparisons of the four
pad heights . . beats the 'ell out of using 4 foot long levels we once used
. .  *
*Tony in Texas*

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Sep 20 20:46:05 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:46:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps?
In-Reply-To: <48CF1CBE.7010004@xxiii.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com> <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
	<48CF1CBE.7010004@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <48D5B56D.1040506@verizon.net>

We're thinking of installing a heat pump in the near/medium term (this 
year or next).  We live in the north Puget Sound area, so it never gets 
really cold, and the summers are moderate, but July and August can get 
into the high 80s occasionally.  The main reason(s) for installing it 
would be to (1) decrease our heating costs (propane); (2) have A/C 
available in the summer when needed (hardly ever) and (3) increase the 
eventual resale value of the house (probably 20+ years out, though).

It looks like most of the heat pump compressors and controllers are made 
by only a few manufacturers, Goodman, Nordyne and a few others.  It also 
seems there are three levels of SEER ratings, around 13, >15 and >18.  I 
assume the price goes up with the SEER rating.  We also did some poking 
around on the Web opinion/review sites, and it looks like there is a lot 
of variation on customer satisfaction even within one brand, which leads 
us to believe that the most critical part of the whole process is 
probably the installation and setup.

It looks like the older, lower SEER rated units still use R22, which is 
still available, and should be for some time, but is being phased out. 
The newer, higher efficiency units use R410a, which I don't know 
anything about other that it runs at pretty high pressures (500 psi or 
so on the high side).  It also looks like there is another efficiency 
rating, HSPF rating which rates the heating efficiency.  These ratings 
don't seem to be as easy to find as the SEER ratings.

Anyone have any current experience with a heat pump install?  Does the 
added expense of a very high efficiency unit pencil out over time?  How 
about warranties?  Some have a 10 year compressor warranty, others 
"lifetime"....Who's lifetime, I wonder.

I have a pretty good facilities background and have a lot of commercial 
and industrial HVAC experience, but nothing on the residential side, or 
with heat pumps, so any info would be welcome.

Thanks
Dave C

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Sun Sep 21 09:07:06 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:07:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps?
In-Reply-To: <48D5B56D.1040506@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <C4FBDB5A.5A0E%kennedybc@comcast.net>

David, we have a house in Portland, OR and have just installed a heat pump
to replace an ancient oil furnace (hot water). I mostly followed the advice
of my heating/cooling guy here in MI. He likes and uses Trane. I've had very
good performance and reliability with the hardware he's installed over the
last 10 years or so, furnaces, hot water heaters, A/C. So, I went with Trane
in Portland. Lowest to highest SEER was ~13 to 16K$. They also have a 1.2K
rebate at the moment. The higher cost unit, SEER 19, if memory serves, have
better lifetime and I'm told are a lot quieter. So, in the long run, the
higher cost unit made sense to me since the longer lifetime made the cost a
wash.

Problems: 
Sounds like you have forced air? I didn't and I didn't realize that the
quote did not include repairs after drywall and ceiling tiles were  removed
to install the heat ducts. Our basement tenant is very angry about the
amount of dust and dirt and thinks they didn't drop cloth her furniture and
so forth. I probably should have checked references harder than I did.

Brian in MI



> From: "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net>
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:46:05 -0700
> Cc: Shop Talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps?
> 
> We're thinking of installing a heat pump in the near/medium term (this
> year or next).  We live in the north Puget Sound area, so it never gets
> really cold, and the summers are moderate, but July and August can get
> into the high 80s occasionally.  The main reason(s) for installing it
> would be to (1) decrease our heating costs (propane); (2) have A/C
> available in the summer when needed (hardly ever) and (3) increase the
> eventual resale value of the house (probably 20+ years out, though).
> 
> It looks like most of the heat pump compressors and controllers are made
> by only a few manufacturers, Goodman, Nordyne and a few others.  It also
> seems there are three levels of SEER ratings, around 13, >15 and >18.  I
> assume the price goes up with the SEER rating.  We also did some poking
> around on the Web opinion/review sites, and it looks like there is a lot
> of variation on customer satisfaction even within one brand, which leads
> us to believe that the most critical part of the whole process is
> probably the installation and setup.
> 
> It looks like the older, lower SEER rated units still use R22, which is
> still available, and should be for some time, but is being phased out.
> The newer, higher efficiency units use R410a, which I don't know
> anything about other that it runs at pretty high pressures (500 psi or
> so on the high side).  It also looks like there is another efficiency
> rating, HSPF rating which rates the heating efficiency.  These ratings
> don't seem to be as easy to find as the SEER ratings.
> 
> Anyone have any current experience with a heat pump install?  Does the
> added expense of a very high efficiency unit pencil out over time?  How
> about warranties?  Some have a 10 year compressor warranty, others
> "lifetime"....Who's lifetime, I wonder.
> 
> I have a pretty good facilities background and have a lot of commercial
> and industrial HVAC experience, but nothing on the residential side, or
> with heat pumps, so any info would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks
> Dave C
> _

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Sep 21 17:05:03 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:05:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps? (part 1 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <48D5B56D.1040506@verizon.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com> <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
	<48CF1CBE.7010004@xxiii.com> <48D5B56D.1040506@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080921183633.01d1c968@cox.net>

At 10:46 PM 9/20/2008, David C. wrote:

 >We're thinking of installing a heat pump in the near/medium term (this
 >year or next).  We live in the north Puget Sound area, so it never gets
 >really cold, and the summers are moderate, but July and August can get
 >into the high 80s occasionally....

David,

I live on the south eastern coast of VA where the Atlantic Ocean and the
Chesapeake Bay meet.  Our summers are typically in the high 80s low 90s
with some 100 thrown in.  Winters are usually mild in the low 40s, 
occassionally
dipping into the 30s and very seldom into the 20s.

Most of the homes built since the mid 70s have heat pumps.  I've lived in
this house since 84 and am on my 3 heat pump.  Average life being about
12 years.

You didn't go into the types of heat pumps only the SEERS which do go up
depending on the type.  Also within a type there are varying SEERS.  The
most common around here is the air to air unit which is what I have.   These
work well in the moderate climates, but when the temps get up to over 90 for
a period of time, or below about 45 they can't do good job at heating or
cooling.  Currently when we hit the 100s I can barely pull my house below 80,
and in the winter it can't really heat it.  So we have to have 
additional heating
in the way of electric heating elements in the system.  And it gets 
quite costly
when them come on for a long period of time.  Assuming that you have adiquate
ducting one of these units costs about $2,500 to $3000 in our area to have
the inside and outside units replaced.

Compaired to something like oil or Gas forced hot air, these units feel cold
in the winter.  I used to keep my last house about 68-70 in the winter.  We
had oil then gas forced hot air heat.  When the heat came on, you felt warm!
The vent temps for heat is about 88 deg, and the unit has to more a lot more
air due to the lower temps (than forced hot air).   My house is a ranch style
so the ducting is in the attic and the vents are in the ceiling.  In the winter
the ceiling is about 84 deg. but the floor is about 60.  Hot air rises. :(  So
you're feet will freeze and you'll feel cold.

My house is about 1500 sq ft of heated/cooled space and is all electric.  On
the "Budget" payment plan my electric bill runs about $217 a month and we
are paying about 8 to 9 cents per KWHr for our electricity.

continued.....

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Sep 21 17:05:27 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:05:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps? (part 2 of 2)
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080921190509.01cfea70@cox.net>

The other older type pump was the water to air.  These have 2 wells, one
to source the water and one to drain the water.  The water is pumped into
the system to like the air is in a air to air pump.  The advantage is that the
water temperature is pretty stable 55 deg F.  Consiquently you get a lot better
cooling in the hot summer days and better heating in the winter.  The problem
with this type is sinking the wells is expensive and the drain well is prone to
not being able to take all the water after some period of time.

There is a newer type called the Geothermal heat pump.  It is very similar to
the water to air heat pump except that instead of sinking wells, the put a pipe
field (radiator) in your yard.  There are a couple of types of 
radiators.  These
don't have the problems of the water to air pumps, due to the fact that it is
a closed loop system, so you don't get mineral deposit build ups nor have
problems with the wells (if there is a drought or the drain well closing off).

I'm not sure that either of these last 2 types cost, but I've heard 
about $6K for
the geothermal and $10K for the water to air.  I have not had an estimate
for either type.

When I purchased my last unit, 6 yrs ago, I think I got something like a 9 SEER
for about $2500.  Then next step up was something like 11 or 13 SEER, but
it was over $1000 more, and it was only going to save me a few dollars per
month.  So the break even point was after the unit should have failed so I
purchased the cheaper unit.

 From what I hear the geothermal is quite good, and you can recoop the cost
difference within the life time of the unit.  But I strongly suggest 
that you get
estimates for both the air to air and geothermal units.  Then ask for 
an approx.
cost to run each unit.  See how long it will take to recoop the difference.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with my unit.  Over the years the compressors have
gotten a lot better and the over all efficiency of the units have gone up so
the heating and cooling are better, and the cost of use is less.

Hope this helps.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sun Sep 21 18:43:07 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:43:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesive for lead wheel balancing weights
Message-ID: <319555AB94644B78B0690C9ECE2D4302@B50SS>

Hi guys,

I know this is going to make me sound like the cheapest man on the face of the
earth, but it actually is driven more by trying to be green (keeping
unnecessary lead out of the landfills, etc.).

I use the small 1/4 ounce adhesive lead weights for balancing my motorcycle
tires. I change and balance my own tires and I ride enough that I wear out two
or three tires each year. Usually it takes two or three weights each time to
balance the tires. Over the years I now have enough used weights to make an
anchor and would like to start re-using them.

What I need to find, though, is the double-sided adhesive tape that they come
with when new. Does anybody know of a supplier of something similar? Thank you
in advance.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Sep 21 19:08:31 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:08:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesive for lead wheel balancing weights
In-Reply-To: <319555AB94644B78B0690C9ECE2D4302@B50SS>
Message-ID: <20080922010831.JBJQ19005.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> What I need to find, though, is the double-sided adhesive 
> tape that they come with when new. Does anybody know of a 
> supplier of something similar?

Any auto parts store should have double-sided foam tape, used for attaching
trim.  Don't know if it's as strong as what they use for wheel weights, but
it's worth a try.

If that doesn't work, you can order "Very High Bond" double-sided foam tape
from MMC, etc.
http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3363

Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sun Sep 21 20:55:52 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:55:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps? (part 1 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080921183633.01d1c968@cox.net>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684ED8DA9@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<48CC0D77.6040601@rochester.rr.com>
	<103918D15F7647B7BA7288E6C0F3C593@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0809150857570.32189@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<48CE659B.2090805@xxiii.com> <48CF0619.8030005@verizon.net>
	<48CF1CBE.7010004@xxiii.com> <48D5B56D.1040506@verizon.net>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080921183633.01d1c968@cox.net>
Message-ID: <48D70938.8050406@verizon.net>

Thanks, John; all good info.  I am considering an air to air heat pump. 
  We considered geothermal, but the cost would be prohibitive, and our 
soil type (hardpan clay) wouldn't work well with a heat exchange coil.

Since the summers and winters are pretty moderate around here I think a 
heat pump would work OK.  We would keep the propane furnace for 
supplemental heat, and I'm aware that the "heat" that they provide in 
the winter isn't the same as a regular furnace.  Since we have heating 
vents in the floor already, it should be alright.



John T. Blair wrote:
> At 10:46 PM 9/20/2008, David C. wrote:
> 
>  >We're thinking of installing a heat pump in the near/medium term (this
>  >year or next).  We live in the north Puget Sound area, so it never gets
>  >really cold, and the summers are moderate, but July and August can get
>  >into the high 80s occasionally....
> 
> David,
> 
> I live on the south eastern coast of VA where the Atlantic Ocean and the
> Chesapeake Bay meet.  Our summers are typically in the high 80s low 90s
> with some 100 thrown in.  Winters are usually mild in the low 40s, 
> occassionally
> dipping into the 30s and very seldom into the 20s.
> 
> Most of the homes built since the mid 70s have heat pumps.  I've lived in
> this house since 84 and am on my 3 heat pump.  Average life being about
> 12 years.
> 
> You didn't go into the types of heat pumps only the SEERS which do go up
> depending on the type.  Also within a type there are varying SEERS.  The
> most common around here is the air to air unit which is what I have.   
> These
> work well in the moderate climates, but when the temps get up to over 90 
> for
> a period of time, or below about 45 they can't do good job at heating or
> cooling.  Currently when we hit the 100s I can barely pull my house 
> below 80,
> and in the winter it can't really heat it.  So we have to have 
> additional heating
> in the way of electric heating elements in the system.  And it gets 
> quite costly
> when them come on for a long period of time.  Assuming that you have 
> adiquate
> ducting one of these units costs about $2,500 to $3000 in our area to have
> the inside and outside units replaced.
> 
> Compaired to something like oil or Gas forced hot air, these units feel 
> cold
> in the winter.  I used to keep my last house about 68-70 in the winter.  We
> had oil then gas forced hot air heat.  When the heat came on, you felt 
> warm!
> The vent temps for heat is about 88 deg, and the unit has to more a lot 
> more
> air due to the lower temps (than forced hot air).   My house is a ranch 
> style
> so the ducting is in the attic and the vents are in the ceiling.  In the 
> winter
> the ceiling is about 84 deg. but the floor is about 60.  Hot air rises. 
> :(  So
> you're feet will freeze and you'll feel cold.
> 
> My house is about 1500 sq ft of heated/cooled space and is all 
> electric.  On
> the "Budget" payment plan my electric bill runs about $217 a month and we
> are paying about 8 to 9 cents per KWHr for our electricity.
> 
> continued.....
> 
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
> 
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
> 
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
> 
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Sep 21 21:36:01 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:36:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] adhesive for lead wheel balancing weights
In-Reply-To: <319555AB94644B78B0690C9ECE2D4302@B50SS>
References: <319555AB94644B78B0690C9ECE2D4302@B50SS>
Message-ID: <48D712A1.1000702@xxiii.com>

old dirtbeard wrote:
> I know this is going to make me sound like the cheapest man on the face of the
> earth, but it actually is driven more by trying to be green (keeping
> unnecessary lead out of the landfills, etc.).

Check with any local tire shop.  Clean lead, like dang near scrap metal
these days, is valuable.  They collect and recycle them.  They would
probably be happy to take an extra pound or two for free.  Then buy
clean new ones.

   -Wayne C

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Sep 22 05:20:50 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:20:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps? (part 2 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <48D6DBCA.3000808@dimebank.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080921190509.01cfea70@cox.net>
	<48D6DBCA.3000808@dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080922070814.01d04d70@cox.net>

At 07:42 PM 9/21/2008, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:

 >I've just recently heard about the geothermal version - what I 
don't understand
 >is how these get heat? Or is the heat pump really just providing cooling?

The best way to think of a heat pump is a window air conditioner.

When it is cooling you have cool air blowing off the front into the house,
right?  But what do you feel if you go outside and stand behind the AC unit?
Heat.  The air conditioner is moving the heat from inside to outside.

This is a heat pump working in the AC mode.  Now when it turns cold,
suppose you took the window air conditioner out of the window and turned
it around.  Now the cool air is blowing outside and the warm air is blowing
inside.

A heat pump as a reversing valve in it that does basically that.

The heat is generated by the compressor chainging the state of the coolant
(freon) from a low pressure gas to a high pressure gas.  Do you have a
compressor in your garage?  What happens to the compressor jugs and
even the storage tank when you use the compressor?  Compressing air
generates heat.  So if you could capture that heat, you've got a heater.

The geothermal heat pump just gives you a stable temperature platform
to work from.  In stead of temps being 100 deg or 40 deg or someplace
in between the recirculating coolant is about 55 all the time.

For a better explination try googling "how does a geothermal heat pump work".

Here is one site that has a simple explination:

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/home/heating_cooling/geothermal.html


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 22 07:58:37 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:58:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Heat Pumps? (part 2 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080922070814.01d04d70@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080921190509.01cfea70@cox.net>
	<48D6DBCA.3000808@dimebank.com>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080922070814.01d04d70@cox.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809220658w7dfb2f31v1fc953aa6b60ccc5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 7:20 AM, John T. Blair <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:
>
> The geothermal heat pump just gives you a stable temperature platform
> to work from.  In stead of temps being 100 deg or 40 deg or someplace
> in between the recirculating coolant is about 55 all the time.
>

Okay.  It's *not* "about 55F" all the time.  Ground temperature below
a couple meters is not about 55F.  It's, very roughly, the average
yearly air temperature.  That's 50 to 60 in much of the country, but
it's not in phoenix (where it's 70-something) or much of the southwest
and far south, nor in the great frozen north, where it's below
freezing.  there's a reason such places have permafrost.

(I'm not objecting to the rest of the content.  Just that, which bugs
the hell out of me whenever anyone says it.)
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Sep 22 10:18:45 2008
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:18:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Antennae
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.58.0701021348280.90681@itonami.pair.com>
References: <ea2385360701020948y321fd25v99b14c536484a66a@mail.gmail.com>
	<NOEDJDCNFBCNELMBFNFEKECKLAAA.tr3driver@ca.rr.com> 
	<0JB900B2A84N2LB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.BSF.4.58.0701021348280.90681@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com>

    I have an FM radio in my garage, with a simple wire antenna.  I used to 
get fine reception, until I insulated the ceiling with those 
styrofoam-like boards with one side of metallic film.  Since I put those 
up, I can barely get one station.

    I do have an old TV antenna on the roof, however, that I never use ( 
satellite ) and never plan to use again.  Can I use this to improve my FM 
reception?  Is it as easy as extending the current wire antenna up to the 
roof antenna?

    Thanks.

--
  David Hillman
  - doesn't really understand how antennae work

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Mon Sep 22 10:29:05 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:29:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk]  Antennae
Message-ID: <4382458b0809220929x55a38fb3p97f9c50ec6e097fa@mail.gmail.com>

Absolutely! The TV antenna is a super FM antenna. Run the wire.

> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:18:45 -0400 (EDT)
> From: David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Antennae

>    I have an FM radio in my garage, with a simple wire antenna.  I used to
> get fine reception, until I insulated the ceiling with those
> styrofoam-like boards with one side of metallic film.  Since I put those
> up, I can barely get one station.
>
>    I do have an old TV antenna on the roof, however, that I never use (
> satellite ) and never plan to use again.  Can I use this to improve my FM
> reception?  Is it as easy as extending the current wire antenna up to the
> roof antenna?

-- 
Rex B
Ft Worth TX

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Sep 22 10:35:25 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:35:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Antennae
In-Reply-To: <20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com>
References: <ea2385360701020948y321fd25v99b14c536484a66a@mail.gmail.com>
	<NOEDJDCNFBCNELMBFNFEKECKLAAA.tr3driver@ca.rr.com> 
	<0JB900B2A84N2LB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.BSF.4.58.0701021348280.90681@itonami.pair.com>
	<20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <48D7C94D.2050709@boicey.com>

David Hillman wrote:
>     I have an FM radio in my garage, with a simple wire antenna.  I used to 
> get fine reception, until I insulated the ceiling with those 
> styrofoam-like boards with one side of metallic film.  Since I put those 
> up, I can barely get one station.
> 
>     I do have an old TV antenna on the roof, however, that I never use ( 
> satellite ) and never plan to use again.  Can I use this to improve my FM 
> reception?  Is it as easy as extending the current wire antenna up to the 
> roof antenna?

   Most likely, yes. Certainly worth a try.

   VHF television stations 2-6 are beneath the FM band slightly, and 
7-13 are quite a bit above the FM band.

   Most simple antenna designs use a single section tuned from 2-13, 
with a UHF option.

   Some larger antenna designs use separate sections for 2-6 and 7-13.

   Whatever you have, it probably picks up FM well enough to get a 
signal, and with the way FM is modulated, once you get an acceptable 
signal the audio quality approaches maximum fairly quickly.

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Mon Sep 22 11:20:27 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:20:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moss removal from roof?
Message-ID: <63D80AA122AC4AC4B4E718C439C648BA@Waynehouseputer>

I live in the pacific northwet and get a lot of moss on my composition roof
in the slots between the shingles (see picture in link). A pressure washer
of sufficient power is effective at removing this stuff but I don't like to
use one as it accelerates wear on the composition shingles.

 

Are there effective moss chemicals that will breakdown the moss to the point
where it can be brushed out of these slots with a stiff brush/broom, and
then use a blower or low pressure hose to wash the debris down the roof?

 

Thanks

Wayne

 

http://jacksonii.smugmug.com/photos/363663045_L2NJ8-M.jpg

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Mon Sep 22 11:24:31 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:24:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole building roof insulation repair
Message-ID: <03449A1727394CAA9CB76B85F62F7309@Waynehouseputer>

My shop is a pole building with insulation in the roof as seen in the
picture in link below. I had to cut away a couple sections of this
insulation last year to repair holes in the roof caused by falling branches.
I need to replace a couple of short sections of this insulation and figure
out how to tape it together with the existing insulation.

 

What is this type of insulation called??

 

What type of tape is used to tape this type of insulation?

 

Thanks

Wayne

 

http://jacksonii.smugmug.com/photos/378032099_fPFrT-M.jpg

From gpd4 at juno.com  Mon Sep 22 11:33:46 2008
From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:33:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole building roof insulation repair
Message-ID: <20080922.133347.12952.28.gpd4@juno.com>

It is a white vinyl faced blanket insulation.  Available in thicknesses
from 1" to about 9".  Your pic looks like it might be 2".  It comes in a
roll in widths from 2' to 8'.  The white vinyl facing might be plain or
reinforced in a myriad of different patterms.  There is a matching tape
available from the laminators that match the vinyl and will effect simple
repairs.
I might be able to help you with the tape if you give me a close up pic
of the facing.
GPD4
 
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:24:31 -0700 "cornerexit" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
writes:
> My shop is a pole building with insulation in the roof as seen in 
> the
> picture in link below. I had to cut away a couple sections of this
> insulation last year to repair holes in the roof caused by falling 
> branches.
> I need to replace a couple of short sections of this insulation and 
> figure
> out how to tape it together with the existing insulation.
> 
>  
> 
> What is this type of insulation called??
> 
>  
> 
> What type of tape is used to tape this type of insulation?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wayne
> 
>  
> 
> http://jacksonii.smugmug.com/photos/378032099_fPFrT-M.jpg
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> 
 
____________________________________________________________
Save on Trade Schools - Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oLavszzyIGgTB8Vyp1ghcwyYi4QrcwSfz4B61Z5NfPr9Z6e/

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Mon Sep 22 11:42:14 2008
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:42:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moss removal from roof?
In-Reply-To: <63D80AA122AC4AC4B4E718C439C648BA@Waynehouseputer>
References: <63D80AA122AC4AC4B4E718C439C648BA@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <20080922174214.GA38007@sackheads.org>

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:20:27AM -0700, cornerexit wrote:
> I live in the pacific northwet and get a lot of moss on my composition roof
> in the slots between the shingles (see picture in link). A pressure washer
> of sufficient power is effective at removing this stuff but I don't like to
> use one as it accelerates wear on the composition shingles.
> 
> Are there effective moss chemicals that will breakdown the moss to the point
> where it can be brushed out of these slots with a stiff brush/broom, and
> then use a blower or low pressure hose to wash the debris down the roof?

Zinc sulfate will kill the moss.  Be patient as it might take a week or two 
before the moss dies.  Afterwards, you can either brush it off or you can 
let it weather away naturally.  Make sure you wash any overspray from any 
adjacent plants.

A bleach solution will also kill moss.  I used a 1:10 bleach-water concentration
to get rid of moss growing on a retaining wall a couple years back.  You'll want 
to make sure it doesn't discolor or otherwise harm your roof, though.

Jimmie

From dgcole01 at bellsouth.net  Mon Sep 22 11:53:27 2008
From: dgcole01 at bellsouth.net (David Cole)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:53:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] heat pumps
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2153.1222100327.3711.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.2153.1222100327.3711.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.1.20080922123129.01c680c0@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net>

Just thought I would through my .02 in here about heat pumps.

If you get one make sure to look at the newer
units with the R410A refrigerant vs the older
R22.  For the time being, both are
available.  Starting 1-1-2010, the R22 units will
no longer be made.  The R-22 refrigerant will
still be available to service the older units.

The R410 is supposed to be more enviromentally
friendly.  Usually that means subpar
performance.  In this case, the new R410 does
better!.   A friend of mine with an HVAC
businesss installed mine last Feb.  I was his
guinea pig, the first R410 unit he installed.  It
works great!  The R410 has working pressures much
higher than the old systems and really puts out
the heat and air.  The air coming out of the
vents in winter is every bit as hot as that from
a gas furnace.  All heat pumps have supplemental
electric heat strips that come on when the
outside temp drops to a certain point.  According
to my installer friend the R22 units came on at
390.  My new R410 system doesn't turn them on
until 260   The a/c works great too.  It runs a
little while and cuts off.  It spends more time
off than on and easily keeps the house at 720,
even when it's upper 90's outside.   I'm in
higher elevation NE Alabama and the average
winter night temps are low-mid 20's with a few
nights in the single digit and low
teens.   Summers are hot with upper 90's,
numerous low 100's and very high humidity.

My unit is a 3 ton Rheem 14 SEER.  It replaced my
old York 2.5 ton 8 SEER.  My home is all electric
and it's saving me around around $1.75/day on my
electrci bill.  Cost was around $4300 for a unit
changeout.  IE: all the duct work was in place,
included the unit, new concrete pad for it to sit
on, new electronic thermostat and minor duct work
to adapt the new unit to my old duct work.   The
only drawback (not really a drawback for me) is
that the R410 uses larger cooling/heating
coils.  The physical size of the unit is easily
50% larger than my old one, even though it's only .5 ton larger.

David Cole

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 22 12:21:32 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moss removal from roof?
Message-ID: <438214.24939.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I use something called "Moss-X" (?); it comes in a green can similar to Ajax detergent and is commonly available at Home Depot and Lowes..  I think they also make a spray version.
The stuff works quite well, but takes a little while to kill it all off.
Once you have it all killed, you can install a zinc strip along the roof ridgeline.  It is a sacrificial strip, and will slowly leach in the rain.  It does a lot to keep moss from re-appearing, although you'll still need to clean the roof on occasion.

>I live in the pacific northwet and get a lot of moss on my composition  >roof in the slots between the shingles (see picture in link). A pressure >washer of sufficient power is effective at removing this stuff but I >don't like to use one as it accelerates wear on the composition shingles.

>Are there effective moss chemicals that will breakdown the moss to the >point where it can be brushed out of these slots with a stiff >brush/broom, and then use a blower or low pressure hose to wash the >debris down the roof?

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Sep 22 14:17:23 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:17:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Antennae
In-Reply-To: <48D7C94D.2050709@boicey.com>
References: <ea2385360701020948y321fd25v99b14c536484a66a@mail.gmail.com>
	<NOEDJDCNFBCNELMBFNFEKECKLAAA.tr3driver@ca.rr.com>
	<0JB900B2A84N2LB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.BSF.4.58.0701021348280.90681@itonami.pair.com>
	<20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com> <48D7C94D.2050709@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <0K7M0026K5QJMV81@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I agree.  One thing, though, is that most TV antennas are designed to 
be directional.  You point them toward the city where all the 
broadcasts come from.  If your FM stations are scattered around then 
performance will vary depending on how the antenna is aimed.  But it 
will still probably work better than what you have now, so it is 
definitely worth a try!

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 12:35 PM 9/22/2008, Trevor Boicey wrote:
>David Hillman wrote:
> >     I have an FM radio in my garage, with a simple wire 
> antenna.  I used to
> > get fine reception, until I insulated the ceiling with those
> > styrofoam-like boards with one side of metallic film.  Since I put those
> > up, I can barely get one station.
> >
> >     I do have an old TV antenna on the roof, however, that I never use (
> > satellite ) and never plan to use again.  Can I use this to improve my FM
> > reception?  Is it as easy as extending the current wire antenna up to the
> > roof antenna?
>
>    Most likely, yes. Certainly worth a try.
>
>    VHF television stations 2-6 are beneath the FM band slightly, and
>7-13 are quite a bit above the FM band.
>
>    Most simple antenna designs use a single section tuned from 2-13,
>with a UHF option.
>
>    Some larger antenna designs use separate sections for 2-6 and 7-13.
>
>    Whatever you have, it probably picks up FM well enough to get a
>signal, and with the way FM is modulated, once you get an acceptable
>signal the audio quality approaches maximum fairly quickly.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Sep 22 15:32:30 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:32:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Antennae
In-Reply-To: <20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com>
References: <ea2385360701020948y321fd25v99b14c536484a66a@mail.gmail.com><NOEDJDCNFBCNELMBFNFEKECKLAAA.tr3driver@ca.rr.com>
	<0JB900B2A84N2LB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><Pine.BSF.4.58.0701021348280.90681@itonami.pair.com>
	<20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <D0C33544DD014290B2A6FBC054FE637F@jdnet.deere.com>

> Is it as easy as extending the current wire antenna up to the
> roof antenna?

In addition to the previous comments, I'd suggest using "antenna wire" aka
"twin-lead".  That may be what you have already, but it might not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin-lead

Ordinary hook-up wire works reasonably well as a local antenna element, but
not as the feed line to an antenna.  And using coaxial cable almost requires
an amplifier at the antenna, to combat the signal loss in the cable.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 22 17:31:38 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:31:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Antennae
In-Reply-To: <0K7M0026K5QJMV81@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <ea2385360701020948y321fd25v99b14c536484a66a@mail.gmail.com>
	<NOEDJDCNFBCNELMBFNFEKECKLAAA.tr3driver@ca.rr.com>
	<0JB900B2A84N2LB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.BSF.4.58.0701021348280.90681@itonami.pair.com>
	<20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com> <48D7C94D.2050709@boicey.com>
	<0K7M0026K5QJMV81@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809221631s79ab18d6g732dda9c1fac535a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
> I agree.  One thing, though, is that most TV antennas are designed to
> be directional.  You point them toward the city where all the
> broadcasts come from.  If your FM stations are scattered around then
> performance will vary depending on how the antenna is aimed.  But it
> will still probably work better than what you have now, so it is
> definitely worth a try!
>

Since he got decent reception before he put foil on the roof, it's
pretty likely he'll do just fine, even with a directional antenna
pointed the wrong way.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Sep 22 17:57:14 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:57:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moss removal from roof?
In-Reply-To: <63D80AA122AC4AC4B4E718C439C648BA@Waynehouseputer>
References: <63D80AA122AC4AC4B4E718C439C648BA@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <E65639409522417E98F240D951A4C96E@HPPavilion>

Moss out, etc. from your local hardware or big box store every other year
will take care of it.

Jack
Just SE of Seattle 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
cornerexit
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 10:20 AM
To: 'Shop Talk'
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moss removal from roof?

I live in the pacific northwet and get a lot of moss on my composition roof
in the slots between the shingles (see picture in link). A pressure washer
of sufficient power is effective at removing this stuff but I don't like to
use one as it accelerates wear on the composition shingles.

 

Are there effective moss chemicals that will breakdown the moss to the point
where it can be brushed out of these slots with a stiff brush/broom, and
then use a blower or low pressure hose to wash the debris down the roof?

 

Thanks

Wayne

 

http://jacksonii.smugmug.com/photos/363663045_L2NJ8-M.jpg
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

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http://www.team.net/archive

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Sep 22 21:00:03 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:00:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moss removal from roof?
In-Reply-To: <20080922174214.GA38007@sackheads.org>
References: <63D80AA122AC4AC4B4E718C439C648BA@Waynehouseputer>
	<20080922174214.GA38007@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <48D85BB3.4050104@verizon.net>

1+ on the zinc sulfate.  I lived in the Granite Falls area about 50 
miles north of Seattle.  Low slope comp roof (modular home) under 
douglas fir trees.  Moss grew overnight.  Zinc strips nailed on the peak 
only killed the moss one tab down.  Zinc sulfate powder sprinkled on 
straight from the can works great.  I just let nature take it's course 
after that; the moss died and washed off.  Repeat every year or so.

Dave C

Jimmie Mayfield wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:20:27AM -0700, cornerexit wrote:
>> I live in the pacific northwet and get a lot of moss on my composition roof
>> in the slots between the shingles (see picture in link). A pressure washer
>> of sufficient power is effective at removing this stuff but I don't like to
>> use one as it accelerates wear on the composition shingles.
>>
>> Are there effective moss chemicals that will breakdown the moss to the point
>> where it can be brushed out of these slots with a stiff brush/broom, and
>> then use a blower or low pressure hose to wash the debris down the roof?
> 
> Zinc sulfate will kill the moss.  Be patient as it might take a week or two 
> before the moss dies.  Afterwards, you can either brush it off or you can 
> let it weather away naturally.  Make sure you wash any overspray from any 
> adjacent plants.
> 
> A bleach solution will also kill moss.  I used a 1:10 bleach-water concentration
> to get rid of moss growing on a retaining wall a couple years back.  You'll want 
> to make sure it doesn't discolor or otherwise harm your roof, though.
> 
> Jimmie
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From nogera2 at att.net  Tue Sep 23 22:26:48 2008
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 23:26:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
Message-ID: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>

My current project is restoring some aluminum fenders.  They have some
cracks and small areas that will need to be welded.
I have a MIG welder ( Hobart 140) with  a CO2 tank.
I know that to weld aluminum I will need to get a Argon tank and aluminum
wire.

My questions:

   1. Will I have to get another regulator to go with the Argon tank or will
the CO2 regulator work?
   2. I've gotten pretty good welding steel sheet metal with my MIG, is
there a whole new learning curve learning to Mig weld Aluminum?
   3. Should I just surrender and farm the job out to a welder?

Thanks

Bob Nogueira

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Sep 23 22:49:43 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:49:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
Message-ID: <B738CD9F59AD4971B49EBA767EA9D553@HPPavilion>

Bob,

1. The Handler 140 (I own a 135) may be underpowered, depending on the
thickness of the aluminum sheet.  See your manual about it.  The reason is
that Aluminum will transfer the heat away from the work area quickly,
requiring more power to complete a similar weld.  The Handler may not cut it
if the fenders have some thickness to them.

I attached a copy of my manual and a few other Mig tips.  The manual shows
using a lot of power to weld aluminum sheet.  If you do proceed, and I would
give it a try, put a box fan blowing on the welder to keep it cooler and
extend the duty cycle.  I've done this when I've welded heavy steel with
multiple stitched passes and never overheated (tripped out on temperature). 

2. Your current regulator is fine.

3. What I have read, since I have not personally welded Aluminum, is that
the technique is slightly different, but sufficiently similar that it should
be something you can handle, if you are comfortable with steel. 

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
nogera2 at att.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:27 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum

My current project is restoring some aluminum fenders.  They have some
cracks and small areas that will need to be welded.
I have a MIG welder ( Hobart 140) with  a CO2 tank.
I know that to weld aluminum I will need to get a Argon tank and aluminum
wire.

My questions:

   1. Will I have to get another regulator to go with the Argon tank or will
the CO2 regulator work?
   2. I've gotten pretty good welding steel sheet metal with my MIG, is
there a whole new learning curve learning to Mig weld Aluminum?
   3. Should I just surrender and farm the job out to a welder?

Thanks

Bob Nogueira
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of Handler 135 Manual - o944g_hob.pdf]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of Alum_MIG_Welding_Tips.pdf]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of mig_handbook.pdf]

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Sep 24 05:07:20 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 07:07:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
Message-ID: <000c01c91e35$c0667590$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

As mentioned, your regulator will be fine.

MIG welding aluminum isn't hard to learn or do.  If you've gotten good with 
thin steel, you'll do fine with aluminum.  The strangest thing to get used 
to is the lack of heating cues and the skinning of the puddle.  But with 
MIG, it's still just point and shoot.

Do practice on some scrap first. 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Sep 24 05:31:47 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 07:31:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080924072456.01d16e88@cox.net>

At 12:26 AM 9/24/2008, Bob Nogueira  wrote:

 >My current project is restoring some aluminum fenders.  They have some
 >cracks and small areas that will need to be welded.

Bob,

I understand the wanting to do it yourself.  And this wasn't one of 
your questions,
but if it's just the one fender, even 2 is it worth the cost for the 
equipment to
allow you to weld Al.?

You'll need a new bottle with gas, new wire, and possibly a new liner for you
gun depending on the size of the Al. wire you use.  How much Al. do you plan
on welding?  How much is the equipment going to cost, and I'd get an estimate
as to how much a shop would charge you to weld it up.

If you're shop is anything like mine or my dads, you don't really 
need to store
the extra tank for the next 50 yrs.  The wire spool shouldn't be too 
much trouble
to store.  But again, if you're like me and my dad, you'll store it someplace
along with the new liner.  Then in a few years when you need to do it again,
then you won't be able to find it. :)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From arvidj at visi.com  Wed Sep 24 08:17:15 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:17:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080924072456.01d16e88@cox.net>
Message-ID: <FC230B9FF4314E9C9C83B007763875E9@behavioral.com>

John brings up a very good point. Normally aluminum wire is run from
a spool gun or a push pull gun. You can run aluminum thru a push gun
if (a) you are lucky, (b) the gun cable is short - 10 feet of less, (c) you
have a teflon liner, (d) you are using 3/64 or larger wire, (e) you have
the correct feed rollers for aluminum and (f) 5356 or other suitably stiff
aluminum wire.

Note that I am not saying you can not push aluminum without (a) thru
(f) but the less of (b) thru (f) you have the more (a) you will need. I get
away without (b) and run it thru a 15 foot cable, but I am very careful
to make sure it is as straight as possible and I have (c) thru (f) in place
and it appears as though I also have some (a).

Otherwise you will discover what the term "birds nest" means.

From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>

> and possibly a new liner for you
> gun depending on the size of the Al. wire you use.

Arvid

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Sep 24 08:33:15 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:33:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <B738CD9F59AD4971B49EBA767EA9D553@HPPavilion>
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
	<B738CD9F59AD4971B49EBA767EA9D553@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809240733t3550a4d0y31a60fbe6f845581@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:49 AM, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> 1. The Handler 140 (I own a 135) may be underpowered, depending on the
> thickness of the aluminum sheet.  See your manual about it.  The reason is
> that Aluminum will transfer the heat away from the work area quickly,
> requiring more power to complete a similar weld.  The Handler may not cut it
> if the fenders have some thickness to them.
>
> I attached a copy of my manual and a few other Mig tips.  The manual shows
> using a lot of power to weld aluminum sheet.  If you do proceed, and I would
> give it a try, put a box fan blowing on the welder to keep it cooler and
> extend the duty cycle.  I've done this when I've welded heavy steel with
> multiple stitched passes and never overheated (tripped out on temperature).
>

Attachments to the list don't get through.

> 2. Your current regulator is fine.

Maybe.  If he's using pure CO2, he's got a CGA-320 regulator.  Argon,
and mixed gas tanks have CGA-580 fittings.  The regulator may, or may
not, work with an adaptor.

>

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Sep 24 10:00:40 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:00:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <FC230B9FF4314E9C9C83B007763875E9@behavioral.com>
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080924072456.01d16e88@cox.net>
	<FC230B9FF4314E9C9C83B007763875E9@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809241143210.1301@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I'm also in the situation where I'd like to be able to do a little AL 
welding and only have a suitcase MIG.

In my case, its a Lincoln SP-175Plus...

Since my other option is a $2k+ TIG machine, I'm ok with spending a little 
money to be able to weld AL... Most of the stuff I want to do is things 
like 1/8" sheet for trailer cabinets & the like.

Any advice on how to approach it?  Lincoln has an AL kit for my welder:
http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.aspx?p=2131

Unfortunately, it looks like the 100SG spool gun doesn't work with my 
welder, at least according to this guy:
http://www.rittercnc.com/welding/Lincoln-Magnum-100SG-and-SP-175-Plus-541-.htm

The Lincoln site also doesn't list it as a recommended power source.

I don't mind if I need to be careful about kinks in the gun cable or a 
shorter gun cable (can I even get such a thing?) or whatever if I can get 
reliable/consistent operation once I learn what it needs.  But I also 
don't want to go this route if I'll be needing to stop every other 2" bead 
to untangle the feed wire either.

Thanks for any advice!

Mark

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:

> John brings up a very good point. Normally aluminum wire is run from
> a spool gun or a push pull gun. You can run aluminum thru a push gun
> if (a) you are lucky, (b) the gun cable is short - 10 feet of less, (c) you
> have a teflon liner, (d) you are using 3/64 or larger wire, (e) you have
> the correct feed rollers for aluminum and (f) 5356 or other suitably stiff
> aluminum wire.
>
> Note that I am not saying you can not push aluminum without (a) thru
> (f) but the less of (b) thru (f) you have the more (a) you will need. I get
> away without (b) and run it thru a 15 foot cable, but I am very careful
> to make sure it is as straight as possible and I have (c) thru (f) in place
> and it appears as though I also have some (a).
>
> Otherwise you will discover what the term "birds nest" means.
>
> From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
>
>> and possibly a new liner for you
>> gun depending on the size of the Al. wire you use.
>
> Arvid
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Sep 24 11:51:05 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:51:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080924072456.01d16e88@cox.net>
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080924072456.01d16e88@cox.net>
Message-ID: <156BDAFD5485451099ADC2FD94374544@jdnet.deere.com>

> but if it's just the one fender, even 2 is it worth the cost for the
> equipment to
> allow you to weld Al.?

Blasphemy!  

Everyone knows he who dies with the most tools wins!
<G>

Randall

From mikey at b2systems.com  Wed Sep 24 13:03:28 2008
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:03:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <156BDAFD5485451099ADC2FD94374544@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080924072456.01d16e88@cox.net>
	<156BDAFD5485451099ADC2FD94374544@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <48DA8F00.9050105@b2systems.com>

 Have to agree, its only one fender this week and would be way cheaper 
and (no offense meant) probably better done to have it done by a pro but 
what fun is that ?  just tell yourself its only one fender TODAY who 
knows what you will need to weld tomorrow ! and all the money needed 
will be irrationally justified.  That is how I got both my MIG and my TIG. 

 For me, I was MIG'ing my Alu body back together and burning holes more 
than welding, so while it was only one body that I had to do today, I 
got a TIG and finished the job, about the only time the MIG gets used 
now is when I loan it to people for trailer work.  MIG on Alu. is not 
difficult but it is very different and I could not get the hang of it, 
got the TIG and it was so easy that I went back and tried to MIG it 
again and it was also easy.  I did not have a spool gun so I am fully 
aware of all the variation of "birds nests" that there can be, I would 
highly recommend a spool gun if it is in the budget.

    mike

Randall wrote:
>> but if it's just the one fender, even 2 is it worth the cost for the
>> equipment to
>> allow you to weld Al.?
>>     
>
> Blasphemy!  
>
> Everyone knows he who dies with the most tools wins!
> <G>
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mikey at b2systems.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Rambour
Bug Writer err...Programmer
      mikey at b2systems.com
****************************************************************
If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car,
then take a look at   http://www.singercars.com/
or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Sep 24 15:28:56 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:28:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
Message-ID: <48DAB118.8020808@boicey.com>

Has anyone ever attempted to change SOME of the shingles on a house? Any 
luck getting colour matched?

My roof suffered some damage in the "big winter" this year, but only in 
one place, which happens to be front and centre...

The roof is older, but still has life in it except for that spot.

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Sep 24 15:38:58 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:38:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
In-Reply-To: <48DAB118.8020808@boicey.com>
References: <48DAB118.8020808@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <0K7P008H9YUGHIQ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

In my opinion, you'll never get the color to match.  How it will look 
will depend on the number and location of the shingles to be 
replaced.  And how prominent that "front and centre" location 
is.  What color is it?



At 05:28 PM 9/24/2008, Trevor Boicey wrote:
>Has anyone ever attempted to change SOME of the shingles on a house? Any
>luck getting colour matched?
>
>My roof suffered some damage in the "big winter" this year, but only in
>one place, which happens to be front and centre...
>
>The roof is older, but still has life in it except for that spot.

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Wed Sep 24 15:50:16 2008
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:50:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welding Aluminum
References: <993A058A5A694A76BB4D4F5409CF33FA@Carroom><6.2.5.6.1.20080924072456.01d16e88@cox.net><156BDAFD5485451099ADC2FD94374544@jdnet.deere.com>
	<48DA8F00.9050105@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <3E9A200362ED45CABB974283D5245B25@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, all,

    OK, I've just got to weigh-in on this one.  Do you have or have access 
to an Oxy-acet set?  You can indeed gas weld aluminum.  The only special 
thing you need is a special lens that cuts the sodium flair out so you can 
see the weld puddle.  Oh yeah, flux and rod of course.

    I'm not talking about the "magic metal" type of repair material.  The 
ads make it sound great but I'm a sceptic: http://www.durafix.com/

    About 16 years ago my late brother and I went to Michegan to take a 
metal working class from Ron Fournier.  Great class!!!  I gas welded 
aluminum as part of the workshop.  Here's a link: 
http://www.fournierenterprises.com/gasweld.html

    You can also go to the Tinman's website: 
http://tinmantech.chainreactionweb.com/html/aluminum_welding_supplies.php?cart=55343976fd5cf5247139aff2674a1764

    Also, I wouldn't class myself as a great gas welder.  Not even a good 
gas welder but mediocre at best.  If I can do it I'd say just about anyone 
can.

    Enjoy and let us know what you end up doing so we can learn.

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (I gotta get this durn thing back on the 
road!)
1965 Ford Falcon (used to be daily driver until the sybchro's in the little 
3-speed died.)
various transportation pods

P.S.  I LOVE this tag line:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mike Rambour
> Bug Writer err...Programmer  <====

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 24 16:05:38 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:05:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1222279202.12753.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <941910.19356.qm@web54307.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I don't think you will be able to get the shingles to match due to weathering.  Have you considered swapping shingles with a less noticeable spot, or scattering the new shingles throughout the roof?


At 05:28 PM 9/24/2008, Trevor Boicey wrote:
>Has anyone ever attempted to change SOME of the shingles on a house? Any
>luck getting colour matched?
>
>My roof suffered some damage in the "big winter" this year, but only in
>one place, which happens to be front and centre...
>
>The roof is older, but still has life in it except for that spot.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Sep 24 16:10:07 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:10:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
In-Reply-To: <0K7P008H9YUGHIQ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <48DAB118.8020808@boicey.com>
	<0K7P008H9YUGHIQ0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <C02EDE886DDD49DD8BFA7D8F1C85C174@jdnet.deere.com>

> And how prominent that "front and centre" location
> is. 

Not to mention how much time you spend staring at your roof.

Randall

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Sep 24 16:31:17 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:31:17 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
Message-ID: <092420082231.8165.48DABFB5000BC70200001FE5220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

yes, I replaced a fairly large chunk of the roof on a house we bought when it developed a leak.  it was on the back of the house and maybe four people have seen it since then in five years.  however, I walked into lowes and happened to find the exact same kind and color of shingle on closeout for some insanely cheap amount.  I'd at least look around a bit and see if you can match it.  additionally, they'll weather and fade to made pretty quickly.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com>
> Has anyone ever attempted to change SOME of the shingles on a house? Any 
> luck getting colour matched?
> 
> My roof suffered some damage in the "big winter" this year, but only in 
> one place, which happens to be front and centre...
> 
> The roof is older, but still has life in it except for that spot.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Sep 24 16:36:29 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:36:29 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
Message-ID: <092420082236.15719.48DAC0ED00009E9D00003D67220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I didn't mention it, but even matching, the old ones were faded and so didn't match the new ones perfectly.  however, the new ones faded as well quickly and now you couldn't tell by looking.  I'd definitely try it at least.  the new ones will fade, and who stares that much at a roof?

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: scott.hall at comcast.net
> yes, I replaced a fairly large chunk of the roof on a house we bought when it 
> developed a leak.  it was on the back of the house and maybe four people have 
> seen it since then in five years.  however, I walked into lowes and happened to 
> find the exact same kind and color of shingle on closeout for some insanely 
> cheap amount.  I'd at least look around a bit and see if you can match it.  
> additionally, they'll weather and fade to made pretty quickly.
> 
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com>
> > Has anyone ever attempted to change SOME of the shingles on a house? Any 
> > luck getting colour matched?
> > 
> > My roof suffered some damage in the "big winter" this year, but only in 
> > one place, which happens to be front and centre...
> > 
> > The roof is older, but still has life in it except for that spot.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Sep 24 16:57:18 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:57:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
In-Reply-To: <092420082236.15719.48DAC0ED00009E9D00003D67220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <092420082236.15719.48DAC0ED00009E9D00003D67220588636004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809241557u2783ba71m17aa34bbcdee3545@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 6:36 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> I didn't mention it, but even matching, the old ones were faded and so didn't match the new ones perfectly.  however, the new ones faded as well quickly and now you couldn't tell by looking.  I'd definitely try it at least.  the new ones will fade, and who stares that much at a roof?
>

I spent a bunch of time starting at a roof from my stopped train
yesterday.  It had clearly been shingled with leftovers from a few
dozen jobs.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Sep 24 16:59:36 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:59:36 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
Message-ID: <092420082259.20199.48DAC658000A2BF000004EE7220076369204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

well, let's hope trevor doesn't live under an el stop.  <grin>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> 
> I spent a bunch of time starting at a roof from my stopped train
> yesterday.  It had clearly been shingled with leftovers from a few
> dozen jobs.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 24 17:58:49 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:58:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
References: <092420082259.20199.48DAC658000A2BF000004EE7220076369204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <D9B8E4EC8BCE43D4BEDDE1C4E110324C@KARL>

That's unlikely - he lives in Canada, not Chicago.  Or is there an el 
somewhere else ??  ;-)


> well, let's hope trevor doesn't live under an el stop.  <grin>

From battmain at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 25 08:58:20 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
Message-ID: <835417.72137.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Yeah, I 'attempted' it on my mom's house. Ended up doing
the whole roof.  
:)   It's not impossible to do a part, but 
depending on where the leak is,
you may find that it is 
a RPITA to get everything trimmed and lined up
without 
breaking the existing shingles and causing another leak. 
We ended up
trying to do one whole side, then that led to
the next side and the next until
we did the whole roof.

You could also use some roof goop to seal the hole if
you can find it. I've done that.

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com
----- Original
Message ----
From: Trevor Boicey trevor at boicey.com

Has anyone ever attempted
to change SOME of the shingles on a house? Any 
luck getting colour matched?
(snip)

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Thu Sep 25 09:22:35 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:22:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Partial roof repair?
In-Reply-To: <941910.19356.qm@web54307.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.15.1222279202.12753.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<941910.19356.qm@web54307.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701E7FC67@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

> I don't think you will be able to get the shingles to match
> due to weathering.

I have a different take on this.

My roof is at least 15 years old (that's how long I've lived in the
house).  During a storm, I lost a couple of shingles off the front of
the house (south facing).  I'm lucky enough that who ever did the roof
previously, left a stack of the original shingles in the garage.  I now
have two less spare shingles, and you cannot tell where on the roof they
were installed.

It's a light colored whitish gray color.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From jdrush at enter.net  Fri Sep 26 12:11:40 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:11:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Antennae
In-Reply-To: <48D7C94D.2050709@boicey.com>
References: <ea2385360701020948y321fd25v99b14c536484a66a@mail.gmail.com>
	<NOEDJDCNFBCNELMBFNFEKECKLAAA.tr3driver@ca.rr.com> 
	<0JB900B2A84N2LB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.BSF.4.58.0701021348280.90681@itonami.pair.com>
	<20080922121127.I47394@itonami.pair.com> <48D7C94D.2050709@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <48DD25DC.40009@enter.net>

Depending on the age and manufacturer, it may even have "FM Segments" in 
the antenna that were specifically tuned for FM reception. Many do.

Jon

Trevor Boicey wrote:
> David Hillman wrote:
>>     I have an FM radio in my garage, with a simple wire antenna.  I used to 
>> get fine reception, until I insulated the ceiling with those 
>> styrofoam-like boards with one side of metallic film.  Since I put those 
>> up, I can barely get one station.
>>
>>     I do have an old TV antenna on the roof, however, that I never use ( 
>> satellite ) and never plan to use again.  Can I use this to improve my FM 
>> reception?  Is it as easy as extending the current wire antenna up to the 
>> roof antenna?
> 
>    Most likely, yes. Certainly worth a try.
> 
>    VHF television stations 2-6 are beneath the FM band slightly, and 
> 7-13 are quite a bit above the FM band.
> 
>    Most simple antenna designs use a single section tuned from 2-13, 
> with a UHF option.
> 
>    Some larger antenna designs use separate sections for 2-6 and 7-13.
> 
>    Whatever you have, it probably picks up FM well enough to get a 
> signal, and with the way FM is modulated, once you get an acceptable 
> signal the audio quality approaches maximum fairly quickly.

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Sep 27 14:08:12 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:08:12 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] Still building, even in the desert
Message-ID: <OF1364C8E6.11057C05-ON432574D1.006F0AE9-432574D1.006F4E84@mail.megageek.com>

Hey there all,

I just wanted to drop you all a line to give you a link to 2 projects I 
made for myself here in Iraq.

Not really excellent quality or anything, but considering they were both 
made 100% from scrap and with limited tools, they are quite a testament to 
the shop skills we use every day.

Check them out and let me know what you think!

http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2008.nsf

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Sep 27 21:51:49 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:51:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Still building, even in the desert
In-Reply-To: <OF1364C8E6.11057C05-ON432574D1.006F0AE9-432574D1.006F4E84@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF1364C8E6.11057C05-ON432574D1.006F0AE9-432574D1.006F4E84@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <48DEFF55.80002@xxiii.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I just wanted to drop you all a line to give you a link to 2 projects I 
> made for myself here in Iraq.

Wow, very cool.  Didn't know you guys were given that much freedom to
scrounge around, or that much personal space, or computer access.

   -Wayne

From eric at megageek.com  Sat Sep 27 21:49:08 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 06:49:08 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] Still building, even in the desert
In-Reply-To: <48DEFE9E.2060005@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <OF05A3F361.43055154-ON432574D2.0015443D-432574D2.0015AB78@mail.megageek.com>

Wayne writes,

>Wow, very cool.  Didn't know you guys were given that much freedom to 
>scrounge around, or that much personal space, or computer access.

For the most part, everyone has multiple options for internet here.  I 
have a pretty cool job that gives me lots of freedom (but very little free 
time.)  Boredom used to be a problem for most here, but now there are 
plenty of things to do.  Besides my projects, I'm in a Master's degree 
program, I'm training for the Army 10 miler, and I'll be starting to train 
for my first boxing match.

Most of the people here can keep busy without a problem.

Now, if I could only find a broken down LBC somewhere in this desert!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Sep 28 05:56:20 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 07:56:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Still building, even in the desert
In-Reply-To: <OF05A3F361.43055154-ON432574D2.0015443D-432574D2.0015AB78@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <48DEFE9E.2060005@xxiii.com>
	<OF05A3F361.43055154-ON432574D2.0015443D-432574D2.0015AB78@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080928075245.01d12ff0@cox.net>

At 11:49 PM 9/27/2008, eric at megageek.com wrote:

 >For the most part, everyone has multiple options for internet here.  I
 >have a pretty cool job that gives me lots of freedom (but very little free
 >time.)  Boredom used to be a problem for most here, but now there are
 >plenty of things to do.  Besides my projects, I'm in a Master's degree
 >program, I'm training for the Army 10 miler, and I'll be starting to train
 >for my first boxing match.

Moose,

Glad to hear you are staying busy.  But man, ARE you staying busy!

Luckily I never made it to that part of the world when I was in.  I can't
grasp working in those temps.  Luckily I had AC most of the time, but
didn't have water quite often for showers.  I was on a conventional Carrier
way back when.

Keep safe, and keep posting.  I know I enjoy hearing how you're doing
over there.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Sun Sep 28 10:45:03 2008
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (William M. Gilroy)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:45:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moss removal from roof?
In-Reply-To: <48D85BB3.4050104@verizon.net>
References: <63D80AA122AC4AC4B4E718C439C648BA@Waynehouseputer>
	<20080922174214.GA38007@sackheads.org> <48D85BB3.4050104@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <48DFB48F.1040508@gmail.com>

   Just east of Seattle (Issaquah) +1 for Moss-out or similar products in
   a  2  pound  can.   I  use  it about twice a year depending on what is
   growing.   On my concrete driveway I use about 10:1 dulited bleach and
   a  power  washer.  That stuff just keeps  growing.   I would not use a
   pressure  washer  on  my  roof.   It  also  helps to blow off the pine
   needles and debris when the roof is dry.
   -g
   David C. wrote:

1+ on the zinc sulfate.  I lived in the Granite Falls area about 50
miles north of Seattle.  Low slope comp roof (modular home) under
douglas fir trees.  Moss grew overnight.  Zinc strips nailed on the peak
only killed the moss one tab down.  Zinc sulfate powder sprinkled on
straight from the can works great.  I just let nature take it's course
after that; the moss died and washed off.  Repeat every year or so.

Dave C

Jimmie Mayfield wrote:

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:20:27AM -0700, cornerexit wrote:

I live in the pacific northwet and get a lot of moss on my composition roof
in the slots between the shingles (see picture in link). A pressure washer
of sufficient power is effective at removing this stuff but I don't like to
use one as it accelerates wear on the composition shingles.

Are there effective moss chemicals that will breakdown the moss to the point
where it can be brushed out of these slots with a stiff brush/broom, and
then use a blower or low pressure hose to wash the debris down the roof?

Zinc sulfate will kill the moss.  Be patient as it might take a week or two
before the moss dies.  Afterwards, you can either brush it off or you can
let it weather away naturally.  Make sure you wash any overspray from any
adjacent plants.

A bleach solution will also kill moss.  I used a 1:10 bleach-water concentratio
n
to get rid of moss growing on a retaining wall a couple years back.  You'll wan
t
to make sure it doesn't discolor or otherwise harm your roof, though.

Jimmie
You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net

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From shiples at comcast.net  Sun Sep 28 17:15:08 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 16:15:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diamond blade for angle grinder
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080928160649.02f7c3a8@mail.comcast.net>

Has anyone had any experience in using a diamond blade on an angle grinder 
to cut concrete sewer pipe?
I'm repairing an old sewer line that is part clay and part concrete.  I 
need to trim the ends of the existing
pipe to square them up so I can use rubber connectors to join the PVC to 
the existing 6 inch pipe.

I've got a 4-1/2 Dewalt and an 8 Craftsman grinder to choose from.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Sep 28 18:03:15 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diamond blade for angle grinder
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20080928160649.02f7c3a8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <845621.4065.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I bet an ordinary carbide cut-off wheel (or maybe two)
would do it OK, especially with a big 8" grinder.

Doug


--- Steve Shipley <shiples at comcast.net> wrote:

> Has anyone had any experience in using a diamond
> blade on an angle grinder 
> to cut concrete sewer pipe?
> I'm repairing an old sewer line that is part clay
> and part concrete.  I 
> need to trim the ends of the existing
> pipe to square them up so I can use rubber
> connectors to join the PVC to 
> the existing 6 inch pipe.

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Sun Sep 28 18:12:59 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:12:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing body trim
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080928201050.02a42528@pop.nycap.rr.com>

I am new to body work and trim often baffles me.

I think I have a handle on the glue on stuff, but the clip on style 
often gets mangled in removal.

  Are there tools for this? or tricks or?

thanks

Skip

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Sep 28 18:35:16 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:35:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diamond blade for angle grinder
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20080928160649.02f7c3a8@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20080928160649.02f7c3a8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <6B0CD8100B68471AB0930F7EFA3E6EA0@HPPavilion>

Steve,

I had a stainless steel perf plate I was going to use as a BBQ grill
surface, but I had to cut it to size.  I used a Diamond blade.  It was
effective in my 4.5 inch grinder, but I suspect your 8 inch would be
faster/better and allow for greater clearance.  I'll be the 8 inch blade
will be a bunch more expensive too.

Jack 

ps - as long as I didn't temperature shock the stainless plate, it was an
awesome grill surface.  

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steve
Shipley
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 4:15 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Diamond blade for angle grinder

Has anyone had any experience in using a diamond blade on an angle grinder
to cut concrete sewer pipe?
I'm repairing an old sewer line that is part clay and part concrete.  I need
to trim the ends of the existing pipe to square them up so I can use rubber
connectors to join the PVC to the existing 6 inch pipe.

I've got a 4-1/2 Dewalt and an 8 Craftsman grinder to choose from.
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Mon Sep 29 17:32:25 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:32:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil pump screen...mesh size?
Message-ID: <6A7D471A2C3F49C5828589D1861F6DFE@DesktopPC>

I need to make an oil pump screen for an antique
automobile.  I'm planning on creating a brass woven wire
cloth tube (soldered along the seam) and then soldered
to two brass washers, one at each end, to hold its shape.
I'm interested in anyone's experience with the woven brass
wire cloth and related mesh size suitable for an oil pick-up
screen.  Super thanks.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Mon Sep 29 17:44:17 2008
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:44:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead Dremel -- suggestions?
Message-ID: <F228FAF4-A359-4CB3-807D-5304EF073345@trebelhorn.com>

Any suggestions on repairing a year-old dremel that suddently started  
billowing smoke and died?

400 Series XPR, I think.

Brushes look okay.

Haven't opened up the case yet -- didn't have my TORX drivers handy.

Rotating bits spin but feel a little 'notchy,' if that makes sense.

I was using the cut-off wheel to cut out a broken stud, white smoke  
started pouring out the front of the tool.  I shut it off -- it was  
still operating -- and now it's dead.

Matt

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Sep 29 18:22:37 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead Dremel -- suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <F228FAF4-A359-4CB3-807D-5304EF073345@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <888050.89034.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I was recently using my 5-year-old Dremel to cut a
home in a bathroom tile on the ceiling.  Unfortunately
this caused toe tile dust to pour down into the tool,
seizing up the front bearing.

The bearing could not be replaced by itself, but I
was able to order a complete new armature with
bearings for something like $25 plus S&H.  The new
bearings were a fully-sealed type, so hopefully this
sort of problem will not happen again.

Doug

--- Matt Trebelhorn <matt.lists at trebelhorn.com> wrote:

> Any suggestions on repairing a year-old dremel that
> suddently started  
> billowing smoke and died?

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 29 19:39:28 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:39:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil pump screen...mesh size?
In-Reply-To: <6A7D471A2C3F49C5828589D1861F6DFE@DesktopPC>
References: <6A7D471A2C3F49C5828589D1861F6DFE@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809291839k69ee91a1i23ddc58fc05a279e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA
<gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:
> I need to make an oil pump screen for an antique
> automobile.  I'm planning on creating a brass woven wire
> cloth tube (soldered along the seam) and then soldered
> to two brass washers, one at each end, to hold its shape.
> I'm interested in anyone's experience with the woven brass
> wire cloth and related mesh size suitable for an oil pick-up
> screen.  Super thanks.

the ones I'm familiar with are of reasonably tight mesh, but have been
larger than a tube, with the mesh held onto some sort of frame to hold
their shape.  I presume that's because that gives a bigger surface
area.  (Bigger surface area means less loss of pressure when the
filter gets clogged.)

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Sep 29 19:49:37 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:49:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead Dremel -- suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <888050.89034.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <888050.89034.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48E185B1.5000801@boicey.com>

Doug Braun wrote:
> I was recently using my 5-year-old Dremel to cut a
> home in a bathroom tile on the ceiling.  Unfortunately
> this caused toe tile dust to pour down into the tool,
> seizing up the front bearing.
> 
> The bearing could not be replaced by itself, but I
> was able to order a complete new armature with
> bearings for something like $25 plus S&H.  The new
> bearings were a fully-sealed type, so hopefully this
> sort of problem will not happen again.

   You can generally buy cheapos for about $10 that include a huge pile 
of equally cheap bits...

   Not that I would recommend them for quality, but considering we are 
discussing two dremels here that up and died, might not be a whole lot 
worse...

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Sep 29 20:07:39 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:07:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead Dremel -- suggestions?
References: <888050.89034.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<48E185B1.5000801@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <F0244460C8544F29AE3C8DDFD8187547@KARL>

"Trevor Boicey" wrote...
>   You can generally buy cheapos for about $10 that include a huge pile
> of equally cheap bits...
>
>   Not that I would recommend them for quality, but considering we are
> discussing two dremels here that up and died, might not be a whole lot
> worse...

I bought a then-expensive speed-control Dremel tool 20 years ago to replace 
a WWII-era rotary tool that we needed at the plant (and for all I know 
whoever stold it is probably still using that 1940's "Casco" tool).  The new 
Dremel saw no more than half an hour's service over something over a year 
when the speed control died.  Warrantee was up, and parts were $50.  I left 
it in the drawer and used my die grinder for years.  Then 7 or 8 years ago I 
found a $15 Tim Allen rotary tool with a bag of bits on closeout at Home 
Depot.  I've enjoyed that little thing on quite a few occasions, using up at 
least a couple of packages of cutoff wheels, and it's still running fine. 
But then I only do light and fine work with it - the heavy stuff calls for 
drills and die grinders.

That's another reason why I don't believe that "You get what you pay for". 
You just don't get MORE than you pay for.

Karl

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Sep 29 20:25:38 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:25:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
Message-ID: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>

My son bought a house built in 1969. I discovered that it has aluminum 
wiring. Anything special I need to be aware of? Our plan is to replace 
most of the switches & outlets to change from 'ivory' to white (plus 
many have paint smeared on them from prior owner's painting efforts).

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Sep 29 21:13:06 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:13:06 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
Message-ID: <093020080313.1772.48E19942000EC943000006EC22165279669D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

Make sure that every component you buy says right on it that it is compatible with aluminum wire.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
> My son bought a house built in 1969. I discovered that it has aluminum 
> wiring.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 29 21:14:18 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:14:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
In-Reply-To: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
References: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809292014w785b398y865ba4936981626c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net> wrote:
> My son bought a house built in 1969. I discovered that it has aluminum
> wiring. Anything special I need to be aware of? Our plan is to replace
> most of the switches & outlets to change from 'ivory' to white (plus
> many have paint smeared on them from prior owner's painting efforts).

Use fixtures approved for aluminum wire.  Use the wire snot.  Replace
anything you can.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bjzwissler at comcast.net  Mon Sep 29 21:37:48 2008
From: bjzwissler at comcast.net (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:37:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
In-Reply-To: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <95EB5F2FB24D40D18BB2D377F44C64D0@LivingRoomPC>

My memory (your mileage may vary) says use fixtures rated for aluminum wire
(marked CO/ALR).  If I remember correctly (I investigated 20 years ago for
aircraft installation), the failure of aluminum was often due to the
aluminum "creeping"  or cold-flowing under the pressure of screws creating a
loose connection.  Once loose, the joint heated and flowed more, with the
cycle repeating until bad things happened.  Spring loaded fasteners kept the
pressure on even as the aluminum crept, but screws seemed to work if they
were designed properly.  I was told that the aluminum could be reliable if
the proper CO/ALR components were used with it.  They may be hard to find
these days or it may be everything is dual use now.

Since I thought giving advice on this might be ill-advised, I did a quick
search and came up with this ancient CPSC pamphlet.
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf  It mentions Copalum splices which I then
remembered were the same things recommended for splicing aircraft wiring
from copper to aluminum.  They don't seem to recommend the CO/ALR fixtures
as a "complete" repair because they're not available for all fixtures in the
house.  Lots of other sites were out there when I searched "repairing
aluminum wiring".  Copalum splicing seems to be the only universally
recommended repair short of replacing it all with copper.

Another useful site was
http://www.thehartford.com/corporate/losscontrol/SBA/TIPS/680-400.pdf.  You
can always count on insurance companies to limit losses.  They seem to like
the CO/ALR devices better.  This guy seems to offer some pretty good advice
and updates some of the recommendations (and says that Copalum in not widely
availabel today)  http://www.homeinspectionplus.com/alumwire.pdf

Either way, it seems it would be a good idea to inspect all the fixtures for
signs of overheating.  The big trick will be if you change anything to make
sure that you're improving things versus making them worse.  Good luck, and
if in doubt there's always the National Electrical Code.

Ben Zwissler (not a licensed electrician)
bjzwissler at comcast.net
Columbus, IN
1966 TR-4A IRS
1973 MG Midget 1275
1980 TR-8
2003 Honda ST1300



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Eric J Russell
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:26 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring


My son bought a house built in 1969. I discovered that it has aluminum
wiring. Anything special I need to be aware of? Our plan is to replace
most of the switches & outlets to change from 'ivory' to white (plus
many have paint smeared on them from prior owner's painting efforts).

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
_______________________________________________
S

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Sep 29 21:47:18 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:47:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dead Dremel -- suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <F0244460C8544F29AE3C8DDFD8187547@KARL>
References: <888050.89034.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<48E185B1.5000801@boicey.com> <F0244460C8544F29AE3C8DDFD8187547@KARL>
Message-ID: <ea2385360809292047i7be74a6cue61f68dbe98881d@mail.gmail.com>

*Time to chime in:  I trashed my quality air-powered die-grinder in the
middle of a project and ran out for a $15 Chinese one just to finish . . It
ran powerfully and so much faster than my "good" one, it was slinging my
buffs apart!   I had to turn the air down to 60 psi from my normal 90 psi.
It'll likely die tomorrow but I'll just go buy another.*

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 29 22:19:06 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:19:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
In-Reply-To: <95EB5F2FB24D40D18BB2D377F44C64D0@LivingRoomPC>
References: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
	<95EB5F2FB24D40D18BB2D377F44C64D0@LivingRoomPC>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809292119w3e645fd2n41c3aaffcb062ba2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 11:37 PM, Ben Zwissler <bjzwissler at comcast.net> wrote:
> My memory (your mileage may vary) says use fixtures rated for aluminum wire
> (marked CO/ALR).  If I remember correctly (I investigated 20 years ago for

Older fixtures may be marked Cu/Al.  Don't use those.  Many of them
aren't really safe; the standards have changed because of it.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Mon Sep 29 22:33:55 2008
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (William M. Gilroy)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:33:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas tank glop
In-Reply-To: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
References: <A6E6EC6907B643F1AE787AC62921D4A4@KARL>
Message-ID: <48E1AC33.7020706@gmail.com>

I have a friend who swears by water, nuts and bolts, a gas BBQ.  Fill
the tank with water, nuts and bolts, fire up the BBQ and put on the gas
tank.  Boil that sucker and swish it around.  Should be clean before you
run out of gas.

-g


Karl Vacek wrote:
> Finally finished Jill's MG and now I finally get to work on my "new" TR4.
>
> The PO had "restored" it and then parked it for 25+ years, with a full tank of
> gas.  He then pulled it out of storage and spent a couple of days trying to
> get it running - on the old gas.  Incredible how bad it smells.
>
> I've removed all of the fuel system, and most of it is straightforward to
> clean and rebuild.  However, the gas tank has a thick sediment on the bottom -
> not grit, not rust, just (apparently) decomposed unleaded gasoline.
>
> I don't have a reliable radiator shop nearby to "boil" it out, though I can
> take it 50 miles to a good guy if necessary.  I won't use "Gas Tank Renu" (if
> they're still around) because I don't want a big hole cut in this
> otherwise-beautiful, solid tank.
>
> Looks like it might come out fairly easily with the right solvent, and that's
> what I plan to try before going to more extreme measures.  I'll get the gas
> gauge sending unit out first, of course, make proper plugs for the openings,
> and put some brass nuts and bolts into the tank (only if necessary) to help
> scrape the sludge off.
>
> My only question is what solvent will be most effective.  In the absence of
> any better ideas, I'll start with lacquer thinner, but before I start pouring
> expensive solvents into it, anyone seen this glop and know of something that
> works better ??
>
> Thanks !
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
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From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Sep 29 22:55:02 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:55:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
In-Reply-To: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
References: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <48E1B126.40000@verizon.net>

My folks bought a house in '70 that was wired with aluminum.  Most of 
the houses in the subdivision were, and there were a lot of house fires, 
mostly in the attics, as I recall.  They were 1 1/2 story homes with 
shake roofs in Houston; I suspect he attics got pretty hot.  I believe 
my dad eventually replaced most of the outlets and switches, and I 
remember seeing some of them that were pretty scorched.  I believe one 
fix was to wire-nut copper pigtails to the aluminum wires using a paste 
anti-oxide compound on the joint under the wire nut, then wiring the new 
outlets to the copper wire as normal.  As someone also mentioned, the 
NEC would be a good place to look; I suspect there is a section on 
retrofitting aluminum wiring, but I haven't looked lately.

Dave C


Eric J Russell wrote:
> My son bought a house built in 1969. I discovered that it has aluminum 
> wiring. Anything special I need to be aware of? Our plan is to replace 
> most of the switches & outlets to change from 'ivory' to white (plus 
> many have paint smeared on them from prior owner's painting efforts).
> 
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Sep 29 23:57:17 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:57:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] oil pump screen...mesh size?
In-Reply-To: <6A7D471A2C3F49C5828589D1861F6DFE@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <20080930055717.YAIL979.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I'm interested in anyone's experience with the woven brass 
> wire cloth and related mesh size suitable for an oil pick-up 
> screen. 

Never tried to measure the mesh size, but the pickup screen on a TR3 is only
a little coarser than window screen.

Be sure the wire can't vibrate at the edge of a solder joint.  The original
TR3 screens are very apt to crack where the mesh is soldered to the pickup
tube.  The cure is to add several loops of wire to secure the screen to the
tube, so it can't vibrate at the edge of the solder.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Sep 30 14:44:29 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:44:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] removing body trim
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080928201050.02a42528@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080928201050.02a42528@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40809301344v72873512h8505c214229b0eff@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 8:12 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> I am new to body work and trim often baffles me.
>
> I think I have a handle on the glue on stuff, but the clip on style
> often gets mangled in removal.
>
>  Are there tools for this? or tricks or?

There are tools.  There are tricks.  There is also lots of cursing.
And some of it isn't intended to be reused.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Tue Sep 30 19:19:14 2008
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:19:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
References: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <97F5C3AA7F6D4203B25DB8EFB03954F2@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, Eric and all,

    Several other replies have been good information for you.  I'd suggest 
visiting this web-site: http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm for 
more information than you ever wanted to know!

    The BEST repair is totally rewiring the house with coper (yeah, right!) 
with the Tyco COPALUM as second best.  However, around 2000 I called Tyco 
and basically was told that the product was pretty much discontinued (or 
words to that effect).  Also, finding a "local" company to do it is 
virtually impossible as the demand has dropped off.

    One newer product mentioned is the AlumiConn product.  I bought some of 
these at my local Lowe's though I think they aren't carrying them anymore. 
Web-site at www.alumiconn.com with links to purchase online.

    Of course the most amusing part of the AlumiConn product is that the UL 
listing doesn't apply unless the set screws are tightened using a torque 
screwdriver to 10 to 15 in-lbs (depending on wire size).  Searching for 
torque screwdrivers with the correct range yield the following products: 
http://www.emaxaction.com/cdi401sm.aspx (~$200), http://www.toolsource.com 
with SK4-22in-lb for $187, http://www.srtorque.com/tamatsd.html with no 
pricing from the company (I read this as $$$$), and finally the "value" 
proposition, Wiha tools: http://www.wihatools.com/200seri/285serie_Fix.htm , 
$90 each for preset units or an adjustable unit for about $115 
http://www.wihatools.com/200seri/285vario_s.htm.  Looks like this product 
requires special blades or a $9 adaptor.

    If I decide to use the AlumiConn's I'd get the Wiha tool and adaptor. 
The only other tip I read somewhere on the inspect-ny site was to coat the 
Al wire with anti-ox and while keeping it coated scrub the surface of the 
wire with abrasive paper.  The anti-ox is supposed to keep the Al from 
instantly getting an insulating Aluminum oxide coating thereby helping with 
its conductivity.

    OK, I've said enough for now.

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' (long term restoration)
1965 Ford Falcon (awaiting transmission swap)
various transportation pods

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring


> My son bought a house built in 1969. I discovered that it has aluminum
> wiring. Anything special I need to be aware of? Our plan is to replace
> most of the switches & outlets to change from 'ivory' to white (plus
> many have paint smeared on them from prior owner's painting efforts).
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as watsonm05 at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep 30 20:03:26 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:03:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring
In-Reply-To: <1A1E8C9424EB4AABA2491F36BB15E926@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <20081001020327.MQKZ28641.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> My son bought a house built in 1969. I discovered that it has 
> aluminum wiring. Anything special I need to be aware of?

Lots of good advice, and I'm sure it's all correct.

But I've got to say, if it was my family, I'd just rewire with copper.
There is an excellent reason it's now illegal in most place to use aluminum
wire in a residence.  And short of tearing apart walls and so forth, there
is no way to be certain that you've found every single splice.  My home was
built about the same time as your son's; and it has problems even with
original copper wiring.  With aluminum over 50 times as likely to cause a
fire ...

Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Tue Sep 30 20:39:44 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:39:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat
Message-ID: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net>

I just picked up what could possibly be my most dangerous tool- a 
Hitachi NR83A2 framing nailer.  It's awesome.

I have a small framing job coming up (framing in a 12 x 12 foot rolling 
door opening on my pole building shop and installing a pair of 2'6" 
doors in the new wall to replace the rolling door) and wasn't looking 
forward to swinging a framing hammer any more.

I did a little research on the web and went through a couple of pawn 
shops and found that apparently the Hitachi NR83A is kind of the default 
framing nailer for most of the framing carpenters around here. 
Everything I read and heard gave me the impression that they are pretty 
bulletproof.  One pawn shop had about seven of them in varying 
conditions, so I picked out the one that seemed to be in the best shape 
and paid $137 (plus tax) for it.  I stopped at the orange Borg and 
bought a box each of Senco 16d and 8d nails for it, took it out to the 
shop and tried it out.  It works great.  I have a few brad nailers from 
23 to 16 gauge, but I've never used a framing nailer.  This thing is an 
animal.  Fortunately it's the newer A2 model so I can switch the trigger 
from bump firing to sequential firing.  I tried it both ways, and bump 
firing gave me a lot of double nails.  I can see where bump firing would 
be great for installing subflooring or sheathing, but for framing 
(especially toe nailing) I'm going to stick to sequential firing.

So, anyone got any good framing nailer stories or tips?

I'm almost looking forward to the framing job.  I wish I had it a few 
years ago when I built the 24' x 48' tractor shed on the back of the shop.

Dave C

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Sep 30 21:34:36 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:34:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat
In-Reply-To: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here's something I have been wondering about:  Would
these nailers make effective weapons?

This would be a good thing for Mythbusters to try-
they could use their ballistic gel, or maybe even a
pig carcass...

Doug


--- "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:

> I just picked up what could possibly be my most
> dangerous tool- a 
> Hitachi NR83A2 framing nailer.  It's awesome.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep 30 22:14:58 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:14:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat
In-Reply-To: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081001041458.UNCU23829.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Here's something I have been wondering about:  Would these 
> nailers make effective weapons?

Only at extremely close range.  The nails tumble and fall out of the air in
just a foot or two.  No spin and no aerodynamics.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Sep 30 22:14:58 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:14:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat
In-Reply-To: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081001041458.UNCU23829.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Here's something I have been wondering about:  Would these 
> nailers make effective weapons?

Only at extremely close range.  The nails tumble and fall out of the air in
just a foot or two.  No spin and no aerodynamics.

Randall

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Tue Sep 30 22:33:07 2008
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:33:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat
In-Reply-To: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F1A04E2E4AB54A08A6A457B2E91ACF8F@8sv5f01>

> Here's something I have been wondering about:  Would
> these nailers make effective weapons?

Danny Glover dispatched two bad guys with a nail gun in "Lethal Weapon II"
but that was pure Hollywood.  Nails have no inherent ballistic stability, I
doubt they'd penetrate at a range beyond a couple feet. A "contact shot"
could be lethal, particularly if the nail penetrated a major blood vessel or
the brain.

Mythbusters could have fun with the concept.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Tue Sep 30 23:11:37 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:11:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat
In-Reply-To: <F1A04E2E4AB54A08A6A457B2E91ACF8F@8sv5f01>
References: <F1A04E2E4AB54A08A6A457B2E91ACF8F@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <48E30689.1050504@verizon.net>

And not necessarily fatal for a head shot.  Someone on the Sawmill Creek 
forum posted a reply with XRays of a number of guys that took a nail to 
the head with little or no long term damage.  Since they don't expand, 
yaw or tumble they do minimal damage.  I'm not going to volunteer for a 
Hitachi-lobotomy, though.

DC

Bob Kegel wrote:
>> Here's something I have been wondering about:  Would
>> these nailers make effective weapons?
> 
> Danny Glover dispatched two bad guys with a nail gun in "Lethal Weapon II"
> but that was pure Hollywood.  Nails have no inherent ballistic stability, I
> doubt they'd penetrate at a range beyond a couple feet. A "contact shot"
> could be lethal, particularly if the nail penetrated a major blood vessel or
> the brain.
> 
> Mythbusters could have fun with the concept.
> 
> Bob Kegel
> Aberdeen, WA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
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> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive