From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Oct 2 09:16:28 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question In-Reply-To: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> References: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Marcus Pless wrote: > I'm a bit skeptical of most of the current "oil less" > compressors and have been looking for something with a more > traditional motor/belt/compressor setup, with limited success. > Can anyone recommend the current Craftsman/Lowes/Home Depot > "oil less" compressors? I've had an oil-less craftsman compressor for something like 15 years. I keep waiting for it to die so I have a better excuse to get one that will keep up with sandblasting & cutoffs & such. I wouldn't worry about the oilless compressors for even "moderately active" enthusiast duty, if they put out enough air for your needs. > I'm even considering something cheap from Harbor Freight until I can > figure out what my actual needs are goind to be. I don't think this would be a bad option, frankly. If you get it at a price where if it fails in a year it won't bother you, the only surprise you can get is a pleasent one. And its not like the other compressors aren't made in china too (he said cynically, with no real knowledge). Mark From jdrush at enter.net Thu Oct 2 16:36:43 2008 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:36:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor Stand In-Reply-To: <48E4C841.5010603@HorneSystemsTx.com> References: <48E42C11.5070408@enter.net> <48E43CD0.7070307@xxiii.com> <48E4C841.5010603@HorneSystemsTx.com> Message-ID: <48E54CFB.5080907@enter.net> Pat wrote: > As for an easy way to raise the compressor, the HVAC contractor should > have access to plastic pads that can be stacked and secured to each > other to get as high as you need. The ones I have under my units are > about 4" tall They were cheap, and a lot easier than forming and pouring > concrete under a unit that needs to be held up in the air while the > process goes on. Heh, that's funny, a plastic pad is what is under there now. Never thought about stacking them. Yes, thick, exotic vegetation that my wife has nurtured from babies for over 10 years surrounds the compressor. She's unlikely to want to part with it. Plus where it sits now, dirt washes downhill and into the casing. Jon From mpless at ucsd.edu Fri Oct 3 14:47:20 2008 From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:47:20 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question In-Reply-To: <48E428F9.2010102@enter.net> (from jdrush@enter.net on Wed Oct 1 18:50:49 2008) Message-ID: <1223066840l.26026l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu> Just wanted to say thanks for all of the suggestions. I still haven't picked up a compressor yet, but after looking at the offerings from Harbor Freight in person I decided it would be worthwhile to spend a bit more. --Marcus From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Oct 3 20:18:17 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:18:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lint Eater Message-ID: I picked up this 'tool' at Lowes recently. http://www.linteater.com/ I was amazed at how much lint came out of the dryer vent line. We are careful to keep the lint filter on the dryer clean. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From jblair1948 at cox.net Sun Oct 5 05:47:58 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:47:58 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: an new one on me... plumbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081005074242.01cfd208@cox.net> At 08:36 PM 10/4/2008, john niolon wrote: >... later after reinstalling the toilet...when the washer drains I get heavy >bubbling in both toilets now... never seen that before... both toilets seem >to flush well and no other problems with sinks in kitchen, baths or >bakery... John, I agree with BillG. Just had a similar problem, except that I'm on city sewage. One day I heard a strange noise in the house. Went to investigate and found the toilets were violently bubbling. But I wasn't having any drainage problems. This only happened once. Then a couple of weeks later it happened again. A couple of weeks after that, I found sewage backing up into the bath tub and shower. Called the plumber and a couple of hours later it was fixed. They ran their powered snake through the lines. They said they had hit a couple of blockages. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 11:01:18 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:01:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss In-Reply-To: <48E806D6.4070603@HorneSystemsTx.com> References: <48E806D6.4070603@HorneSystemsTx.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40810051001g243eb14xae6618af1c4c4fc@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Pat wrote: > JP, > > Probably what you are hearing is the control transformer in the furnace. > Your thermostat and controls runs on 24V. There will be a small amount > of eddy current loss in the transformer, but that's about it. Probably 10 watts or so. (If it's old, maybe lots more.) That's on the order of 80 kW hours over the course of a year. If it doesn't need to be on six months of the year, that's 40 kWh. That's $4 at my electric rates, give or take. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Oct 5 19:15:04 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 21:15:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project Message-ID: The planets are aligning themselves and I expect to soon have the funds to begin a garage expansion project. I have had spousal approval (more like encouragement and sorry - her sisters are married) for quite some time. My plan is to double the garage from ~ 22'w X 22'd (laughingly called a "double garage") with an attic full of trusses accessible by pull down stairs to 44'w X 22'd with a room above for hobby use (model railroading). The 44' wall will be the entrance wall with garage doors. I will likely add a four-post lift. Does the garage floor need extra reinforcement? I am thinking of adding an area for an air compressor & probably a dust collector. Is it likely those two should not co-habit? Any other advice appreciated. Things you are glad you did or wish you did. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Oct 5 18:59:22 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:59:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] aluminum house wiring References: <916F8E5FE86947EB8CFF563C3D2649AB@DADSTOY> Message-ID: Thanks for the replies about aluminum house wiring. We are weighing our options. Either re-wiring the whole house or paying an electrician to add copper pigtails using a copalum compression die. http://www.alwirerepair.com/copalum_crimp_method.htm I have not yet investigated whether this tool is available to the D-I-Y'er. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From pethier at comcast.net Sun Oct 5 22:45:55 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 04:45:55 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: an new one on me... plumbing Message-ID: <100620080445.7002.48E99803000A3C1700001B5A22155612649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "John T. Blair" > Called the plumber and a couple of hours later it was fixed. They ran their > powered snake through the lines. They said they had hit a couple of blockages. I suggest that you hire a person with a camera to go in and video the entire line out to where it meets the city main. I have looked at many of these videos and what you don't know can hurt you. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier From lspector at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 05:22:47 2008 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:22:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167503c10810060422x7fe43c90pdd191778cae7aa69@mail.gmail.com> Congrats! I went through this ~5 years ago, and couldn't be happier with the finished garage. The garage floor does have some minimum requirements for the concrete. According to Bend-Pack, the concrete should be 4" minimum 3000psi for a 4 post lift: http://www.bendpak.com/tech-stuff/ Depending on the brand/model you go with, you may need 220VAC to power the lift as well as air to release the locks when lowering it. One thing I did in the construction phase was pull the specs for the lift I wanted, and lay it out in the empty space. It helped me decide where to put windows without having the columns block them. You'll also need to consider the column height when you install your garage door and opener. -Larry On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:15 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > The planets are aligning themselves and I expect to soon have the > funds to begin a garage expansion project. I have had spousal approval > (more like encouragement and sorry - her sisters are married) for > quite some time. > > My plan is to double the garage from ~ 22'w X 22'd (laughingly called > a "double garage") with an attic full of trusses accessible by pull > down stairs to 44'w X 22'd with a room above for hobby use (model > railroading). The 44' wall will be the entrance wall with garage > doors. > > I will likely add a four-post lift. Does the garage floor need extra > reinforcement? > > I am thinking of adding an area for an air compressor & probably a > dust collector. Is it likely those two should not co-habit? > > Any other advice appreciated. Things you are glad you did or wish you > did. > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 6 05:24:57 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:24:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40810051001g243eb14xae6618af1c4c4fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081006112457.BQGK19942.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > > Probably what you are hearing is the control transformer in > the furnace. > > Your thermostat and controls runs on 24V. There will be a small > > amount of eddy current loss in the transformer, but that's about it. > > Probably 10 watts or so. (If it's old, maybe lots more.) That seems way high to me. Whatever it dissipates is converted almost entirely to heat; and 10 watts into something the size of a control transformer would cause it to get quite warm even in free air. Mine is some 40 years old, and just barely gets warm to the touch. Might be 1 watt, but I doubt even that. Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Oct 6 05:55:16 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <725571.66246.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If the climate permits, put the air compressor outside, like in a little shed attached to the outside wall. It will be much less noisy inside when the thing is running. Doug --- Eric J Russell wrote: > The planets are aligning themselves and I expect to > soon have the > funds to begin a garage expansion project. I have > had spousal approval > (more like encouragement and sorry - her sisters are > married) for > quite some time. > > My plan is to double the garage from ~ 22'w X 22'd > (laughingly called > a "double garage") with an attic full of trusses > accessible by pull > down stairs to 44'w X 22'd with a room above for > hobby use (model > railroading). The 44' wall will be the entrance wall > with garage > doors. > > I will likely add a four-post lift. Does the garage > floor need extra > reinforcement? > > I am thinking of adding an area for an air > compressor & probably a > dust collector. Is it likely those two should not > co-habit? > > Any other advice appreciated. Things you are glad > you did or wish you > did. > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From jniolon at bham.rr.com Mon Oct 6 06:08:26 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:08:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] compressor in garage expansion Message-ID: <2FCE06A358494F18B662020C342DE72C@OwnerPC> If the climate permits, put the air compressor outside, like in a little shed attached to the outside wall. It will be much less noisy inside when the thing is running. Doug I did this back in 2000 when I added a 12 x 20 lean too on the back of the garage. Used TIPs plan for plumbing http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf have never been disappointed... shop is much quieter and cooler also...compressors can put out some heat ! the only problem is I have to listen sometimes to make sure the compressor is running !!!.. also when you set it on the floor put some rubber padding under the feet... much less noise and vibration. Some folks use hockey pucks... we don't see a lot of those in Alabama... I found some 3/4" conveyor belting and used a double section under each leg. john We ought to be glad we don't receive as much government as we pay for... paraphrasing W. Rogers From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Oct 6 07:48:23 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 01:48:23 -1200 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project Message-ID: <48ea1727.1fa.826.397031309@ml2.myemail.com> Yes, that is what I meant - an area outside the garage like a mechanical shed. Is it likely an air compressor & dust collector should not be in the same space? Eric Russell Mebane, NC > If the climate permits, put the air compressor > outside, like in a little shed attached to the outside > wall. It will be much less noisy inside when the > thing is running. > > Doug > > > --- Eric J Russell wrote: > > > The planets are aligning themselves and I expect to > > soon have the funds to begin a garage expansion > > project. Login from home, work, school. Anywhere! From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Oct 6 08:05:03 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:05:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project References: <48ea1727.1fa.826.397031309@ml2.myemail.com> Message-ID: <0E606F20E4774D9EB848DF6FB311A7F6@KARL> First off, the space will need decent ventilation to keep the machines cool. If the dust collector lets any dust escape, a little room and everything in it will get really dirty really fast. That will inhibit the compressor's cooling and make it run hot. The compressor's intale air cleaner will get plugged quickly too. Also, running the machines in an enclosed space will make that space hot, and both will run hotter than they were designed to do. If the dust collector's output could be ducted outside, that would probably eliminate the dirt issue. If it's one of the large exposed bag types, maybe it can't directly be ducted out, but you could split the room into two separate "cells" to keep any dust away from the compressor. Similarly the air compressor can breathe clean outside air if you duct the intake from the outside. But of course you need to separate the ventilation intakes and exhausts to avoid recyclinig dirty and hot air, and also watch where the compressor intake comes from. Karl . > Yes, that is what I meant - an area outside the garage like > a mechanical shed. > > Is it likely an air compressor & dust collector should not > be in the same space? > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Oct 6 08:15:59 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Sun, 5 Oct 2008, Eric J Russell wrote: > My plan is to double the garage from ~ 22'w X 22'd (laughingly called a > "double garage") with an attic full of trusses accessible by pull down > stairs to 44'w X 22'd with a room above for hobby use (model > railroading). The 44' wall will be the entrance wall with garage doors. > > I will likely add a four-post lift. Does the garage floor need extra > reinforcement? Nothing particularly special for a four post lift, IIRC. If you want to "future proof" it for when you realize that you actually want a two post lift (:-), check out some of the manufacturer websites for requirements. IIRC, a 6" floor with reinforcement and any reasonable psi is fine, but clearly you should check around for actual specs. > I am thinking of adding an area for an air compressor & probably a > dust collector. Is it likely those two should not co-habit? > > Any other advice appreciated. Things you are glad you did or wish you > did. I think 22' deep is really quite tight... My shop is 24' deep and there's not a lot of room between the tire machine, nose of a car (camaro, in this case), car, and door. My truck is 21' long by itself IIRC. I think 32' deep would be much more ideal, but obviously that's also a much different construction project. If you can't make it deeper, make sure you lay things out so that you don't need tools, benches, etc. in front of your auto workbays. Mark From jniolon at bham.rr.com Mon Oct 6 08:21:24 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:21:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: compressor in garage expansion Message-ID: <1B969A6DBAD54142AE7B39A06D647539@OwnerPC> If the climate permits, put the air compressor outside, like in a little shed attached to the outside wall. It will be much less noisy inside when the thing is running. Doug I did this back in 2000 when I added a 12 x 20 lean too on the back of the garage. Used TIPs plan for plumbing http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf have never been disappointed... shop is much quieter and cooler also...compressors can put out some heat ! the only problem is I have to listen sometimes to make sure the compressor is running !!!.. also when you set it on the floor put some rubber padding under the feet... much less noise and vibration. Some folks use hockey pucks... we don't see a lot of those in Alabama... I found some 3/4" conveyor belting and used a double section under each leg. john We ought to be glad we don't receive as much government as we pay for... paraphrasing W. Rogers From mikey at b2systems.com Mon Oct 6 10:48:36 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:48:36 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EA4164.3030001@b2systems.com> Permits are being applied for in 2 minutes :) Contractor was meeting my wife at the building dept. at 9:30 and its 9:28 right now :) I am doubling my garage from 20x20 to 22x40 (kind of, I will be bragging later on a webpage with pics to make sense of the "kind of" part). I am moving all the big stuff outside, the compressor will go on a small slab outside along with my powder coating oven and glass beading cabinet. That will open up lots of space in the garage. The oven will be treated like a window, so I will still use it inside the garage but it will be outside. 2 lifts, surprisingly the 4-post will go in the existing garage with only 8'6" clearance to the rafters and the scissor lift will go in the new section with 9ft. walls and scissor trusses (makes sense to me, no worries). I had 5 1/2" slab poured in the existing garage with rebar 18" o.c. instead of code here which is 24" o.c. and the new garage will have the same thing. I had a 100amp dedicated sub panel wired in the existing garage a few weeks ago, a garage that size needs power ! You should consider where water and drain will be if you are going to have a sink, I may not have a sink and already miss it but garage slab will actually be about 2" higher than house and its hard to make drain water go uphill, a hole with a sump pump is being considered and my contractor says that would work fine since its just for washing my hands or parts, not a toilet. As for the dust collector and compressor, yes of course they can be in the same room but both create heat and heat is your compressors enemy. I will be sucking in clean air from the outside for my compressor and that might be sufficient for you also but with heat in your compressor room, be prepared for water in your lines unless you prep that and I second that recommendation on TP Tools air design. Ok, its 9:38, can I call the concrete guy yet ? mike Eric J Russell wrote: > The planets are aligning themselves and I expect to soon have the > funds to begin a garage expansion project. I have had spousal approval > (more like encouragement and sorry - her sisters are married) for > quite some time. > > My plan is to double the garage from ~ 22'w X 22'd (laughingly called > a "double garage") with an attic full of trusses accessible by pull > down stairs to 44'w X 22'd with a room above for hobby use (model > railroading). The 44' wall will be the entrance wall with garage > doors. > > I will likely add a four-post lift. Does the garage floor need extra > reinforcement? > > I am thinking of adding an area for an air compressor & probably a > dust collector. Is it likely those two should not co-habit? > > Any other advice appreciated. Things you are glad you did or wish you > did. > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Oct 6 11:10:48 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:10:48 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project In-Reply-To: <48EA4164.3030001@b2systems.com> References: <48EA4164.3030001@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081006130932.01d39768@cox.net> I would recommend adding a box fan, hung from wires, coat hangers, etc., from the ceiling to blow on the compressor to help cool it during long uses. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Oct 6 11:37:58 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:37:58 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project In-Reply-To: <48EA4164.3030001@b2systems.com> References: <48EA4164.3030001@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <48EA4CF6.1090801@xxiii.com> Mike Rambour wrote: > Ok, its 9:38, can I call the concrete guy yet ? I epoxy coated my floor 5 years ago, and have also helped my brother with the same project. If you intend to do this (and you should!) be sure the concrete DOES NOT have the fiberglass reinforcing strands in the mix! These stand up off the finished surface and make it a bitch to sweep clean, even if you don't coat it; and with epoxy they just make an ugly mess. -Wayne From mikey at b2systems.com Mon Oct 6 12:04:13 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:04:13 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Expension Message-ID: <48EA531D.70106@b2systems.com> Did not mean to hijaak the thread from the original poster but several people have said I can't do a 4-post with a 8'6" ceiling height and I thought I would clarify. Here it is in my existing garage with 8'6" http://www.singercars.com/restoration/lift_images/finished.jpg http://www.singercars.com/restoration/lift_images/finished2.jpg Both those cars have fold down windshields so using the lift as storage works great, I can't work under it with a regular car but it keeps both cars up front and ready to drive. And here it is after I removed one rafter so I could actually work under it. http://singer.rambour.com/stuff/DSC03254.JPG http://singer.rambour.com/garage/garage_lift.jpg I have small cars :) My issue is that my garage is what is locally called "legal non-conforming" as it was built before the current rules, its only 18" from the property line and if I do anything to it at all, I will have to move it to the 6ft. setback, I did not want to lose that much yard space and effectively give my neighbor 6ft. of yard since it would be useless to me. I tried to get the city to let me raise the roof and they would not unless I tore down and moved 6ft. from the property. The idea is that my 4post is primarily used for storage and not work so I can get by with the low ceiling and of course I am working with my engineer who designed the addition to give me some more room in the existing by moving rafters around, lets call it termite repair, It won't change the outside so its ok, it won't give me the height that I would like but it will be fine. Having the 4post in front of the garage give me driving access to my cars. There are other issues too, I am not allowed to have larger than a 500 sq. ft. garage on my property as its only 1/3 of acre but I am allowed to have a 500 sq. ft. garage and a 500 sq. ft. workshop, the definition of what is a workshop is that I cant get a car into it, so my garage extension is actually a workshop attached to the main garage and sharing a wall which my engineer put a very nice big heavy beam over the shared wall and mentioned to me that removing the studs will not be a problem because of the beam he put in the plans. Gee I wonder where he got that idea :) I will end up with some nice space. I have drawings that I have to put up on a web page so I can properly brag. I hit a "snag" since I was so excited this morning in my first e-mail, I incorrectly assumed I was good to go and ready to call the concrete guy but the city wants to verify my lot lines and building location so I was told my permit wont be ready until Nov. 5, no big deal, I know my lines are good, I had a surveyor survey the site just 2 months ago, he is a city certified surveyor and I just spoke to him, he said he will go down this afternoon and show the city his work which should be sufficient and speed up my permit. Ok, back to the original subject ... mike -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From nases at verizon.net Mon Oct 6 12:29:22 2008 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:29:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing Message-ID: <71DE0B75-1BCC-4CDB-BCFA-C91B0F86CF65@verizon.net> My garage has a full attic above it accessed by a wooden staircase. The opening in the attic floor is 7'6" long and about 47" wide. Because the steps aren't the same width as the opening I have a railing which interferes with any attempt to close the hole in winter. My attic is not insulated but the garage below is. I have a small electric heater to take the chill off when I am working on my cars. In the past I have laid some foil backed sheathing over the hole but I have never found a permanent solution. I should insulate up there but I really don't need to heat it. Any ideas for fitting a more permanent door for insulation? Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Oct 6 13:24:23 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:24:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing In-Reply-To: <71DE0B75-1BCC-4CDB-BCFA-C91B0F86CF65@verizon.net> References: <71DE0B75-1BCC-4CDB-BCFA-C91B0F86CF65@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081006152032.01d48e38@cox.net> At 02:29 PM 10/6/2008, Phil Nase wrote: >My garage has a full attic above it accessed by a wooden staircase. >The opening in the attic floor is 7'6" long and about 47" wide. >Because the steps aren't the same width as the opening I have a >railing which interferes with any attempt to close the hole in winter..... >Any ideas for fitting a more permanent door for insulation? Phil, Two ideas come to mind. I'm not sure about your wooden staircase. I'm assuming that it's one of the folding type. 1. If so, make the opening wider in the ceiling so the staircase will close into it. 2. Why not get a piece of 1/2" ply and make a sliding/rooling door. As you go up the stairs, you could reach up and slide the door over to one side. Then when you're done just slide it back over top of the hole. John >eed to heat it. John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 13:50:23 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:50:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20081006152032.01d48e38@cox.net> References: <71DE0B75-1BCC-4CDB-BCFA-C91B0F86CF65@verizon.net> <6.2.5.6.1.20081006152032.01d48e38@cox.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40810061250m6b9d00c7v5150614a766471d6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 3:24 PM, John T. Blair wrote: > 2. Why not get a piece of 1/2" ply and make a sliding/rooling > door. As you go up > the stairs, you could reach up and slide the door over to one side. Then when > you're done just slide it back over top of the hole. We've got an attic access in the attached garage. The hole is covered with a piece of plywood (probably only 3/16 or 1/4") with a piece of styrofoam insulation. It's only about 3 feet square, though. One the size he needs would weigh more than i'd want ot move. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 14:10:36 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:10:36 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss In-Reply-To: <20081006112457.BQGK19942.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <2400a5d40810051001g243eb14xae6618af1c4c4fc@mail.gmail.com> <20081006112457.BQGK19942.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40810061310h5081bef3x2a3b8a2c66169d0d@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Randall wrote: >> > Probably what you are hearing is the control transformer in >> the furnace. >> > Your thermostat and controls runs on 24V. There will be a small >> > amount of eddy current loss in the transformer, but that's about it. >> >> Probably 10 watts or so. (If it's old, maybe lots more.) > > That seems way high to me. Whatever it dissipates is converted almost > entirely to heat; and 10 watts into something the size of a control > transformer would cause it to get quite warm even in free air. Mine is some > 40 years old, and just barely gets warm to the touch. Might be 1 watt, but > I doubt even that. You'd be surprised. Transformers waste an incredible amount of power when not in use. I didn't just pull the number out of a hat. I've measured a bunch of similar things, and 10 watts is what I'd guess. You're an engineer, as I recall, so lets do some math: Warm to the touch means it's above body temperature, 37 C, 98.6F. Let's say our transformer is 10cm a side. That gives it an area of 1,000 cm^2, or 0.1 m^2. If it's at 40c (just slightly more than body temp), it'll radiate (area * Stefan's constant* T^4, or 0.1 m^2 * 5.67 X10-8 * 313^4 ~= 54 W) about 54 watts, were it a perfect blackbody (it's not, of course, but close enough.) It's in a room at about 20C, so it will absorb (0.1 * 5.67x10^-8 * 293^4) 41 W. net output is about 13W. In reality, it's not a perfect black body, and so it's going to radiate less. On the other hand, it's probably got one side mounted to something where it can shed heat through conduction, which is more efficient. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Mon Oct 6 14:21:07 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:21:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20081006152032.01d48e38@cox.net> References: <71DE0B75-1BCC-4CDB-BCFA-C91B0F86CF65@verizon.net> <6.2.5.6.1.20081006152032.01d48e38@cox.net> Message-ID: <8B01AEDA09B645C283A9C243B185ABF2@OwnerPC> could you make a cover for the opening (in the attic space) that could be hinged where you could open it like a door as you climbed the stairs... and close it as you leave... ?? instead or sliding or rolling it out of the way.. john ----- Original Message ----- From: "John T. Blair" To: "shop talk" Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing > At 02:29 PM 10/6/2008, Phil Nase wrote: > > >My garage has a full attic above it accessed by a wooden staircase. > >The opening in the attic floor is 7'6" long and about 47" wide. > >Because the steps aren't the same width as the opening I have a > >railing which interferes with any attempt to close the hole in > >winter..... > > >Any ideas for fitting a more permanent door for insulation? > > Phil, > > Two ideas come to mind. I'm not sure about your wooden staircase. I'm > assuming that it's one of the folding type. > > 1. If so, make the opening wider in the ceiling so the staircase > will close into it. > > 2. Why not get a piece of 1/2" ply and make a sliding/rooling > door. As you go up > the stairs, you could reach up and slide the door over to one side. Then > when > you're done just slide it back over top of the hole. > > John > > >>eed to heat it. > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net > Va. Beach, Va > Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > 65 Rambler Classic > > Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan > Bricklin: www.bricklin.org > > If you can read this - Thank a teacher! > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Oct 6 14:31:22 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing In-Reply-To: <71DE0B75-1BCC-4CDB-BCFA-C91B0F86CF65@verizon.net> Message-ID: <774378.6366.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Could you put walls on either side of the stairs, between them and the ceiling, and put an ordinary door at the bottom of the staircase? Doug --- Phil Nase wrote: > My garage has a full attic above it accessed by a > wooden staircase. > The opening in the attic floor is 7'6" long and > about 47" wide. > Because the steps aren't the same width as the > opening I have a > railing which interferes with any attempt to close > the hole in winter. From badgermt at cableone.net Mon Oct 6 14:38:12 2008 From: badgermt at cableone.net (Badger Mountain Motorworks) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:38:12 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing In-Reply-To: <8B01AEDA09B645C283A9C243B185ABF2@OwnerPC> References: <71DE0B75-1BCC-4CDB-BCFA-C91B0F86CF65@verizon.net> <6.2.5.6.1.20081006152032.01d48e38@cox.net> <8B01AEDA09B645C283A9C243B185ABF2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <48EA7734.8060900@cableone.net> If it's only a winter problem, and you're not going to be needing immediate and repeated access, why not just cut a piece of high density 2" urethane to fill the void? It would be light enough to move out of the way when you needed to enter the attic and it would provide far better insulation than a conventional door/hatch cover. john niolon wrote: could you make a cover for the opening (in the attic space) that could be hinged where you could open it like a door as you climbed the stairs... and close it as you leave... ?? instead or sliding or rolling it out of the way.. john ----- Original Message ----- From: "John T. Blair" To: "shop talk" Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing At 02:29 PM 10/6/2008, Phil Nase wrote: My garage has a full attic above it accessed by a wooden staircase. The opening in the attic floor is 7'6" long and about 47" wide. Because the steps aren't the same width as the opening I have a railing which interferes with any attempt to close the hole in winter..... Any ideas for fitting a more permanent door for insulation? Phil, Two ideas come to mind. I'm not sure about your wooden staircase. I'm assuming that it's one of the folding type. 1. If so, make the opening wider in the ceiling so the staircase will close into it. 2. Why not get a piece of 1/2" ply and make a sliding/rooling door. As you go up the stairs, you could reach up and slide the door over to one side. Then when you're done just slide it back over top of the hole. John eed to heat it. John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as badgermt at cableone.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Oct 6 15:45:52 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:45:52 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40810061310h5081bef3x2a3b8a2c66169d0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081006214556.LFMN19036.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > Let's say our transformer is 10cm a side. That's one heck of a transformer ... mine is more like 4 cm/side. > That gives it an > area of 1,000 cm^2, or 0.1 m^2. Not unless your transformer has 10 sides ! > net output is about 13W. Well, I just measured mine. Don't have the equipment handy to measure true power, but the current is only about 50ma; so that's only 6 watts apparent power. And the primary resistance is about 35 ohms, so resistive loss is less than 0.1 watt. Randall From jandkstone99 at msn.com Mon Oct 6 19:59:39 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:59:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage expansion project In-Reply-To: <48EA4CF6.1090801@xxiii.com> References: <48EA4164.3030001@b2systems.com> <48EA4CF6.1090801@xxiii.com> Message-ID: My 3-car garage is as large as I could legally fit on my relatively small lot without going to a 10 foot setback. In my case, the law allowed 670 sq ft; my architect tweaked mine until it was 669! To keep the costs down we went with 9 foot walls (10 feet added quite a bit on lumber costs), but used a two level ceiling so that the garage had a standard roof (i.e., 9 foot ceiling) over the two car bay, but used scissors trusses to provide a taller ceiling over the one car. That part of the garage is also longer than the other. The intent is to use the one car bay as the working/storage portion and put in a lift (still on my 'to buy' list) there. While my cars (Sunbeam Alpines) are all small, there is enough room to raise one to any height I could ever want under the cathedral ceiling. But, as big as it seemed when first finished four years ago, I have already run out of storage space. If I had it to do all over, the one thing I would do differently is to specify stronger joists. The builder used standard ceiling joists that are not rated for storage. I have done what I can to strengthen them, but really wish I was comfortable flooring it and adding proper storage there! _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ From pethier at comcast.net Mon Oct 6 21:04:33 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:04:33 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage attic sealing Message-ID: <100720080304.29697.48EAD1C1000324C80000740122165662769D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> From: "john niolon" > could you make a cover for the opening (in the attic space) that could be > hinged where you could open it like a door as you climbed the stairs... and > close it as you leave... ?? instead or sliding or rolling it out of the > way. That's what I have on my full-size stairway in my house. The large insulated hatch that covers the attic stairway is counterweighted via cable and two pulleys. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7 pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier From vlm at te-motorworks.com Wed Oct 1 01:14:28 2008 From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:14:28 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <462547BD-BEF5-4C1B-93A4-E40D3E9AF768@te-motorworks.com> My henchman / sometimes contractor shoots at me with his Paslode gun from time to time. Through carhartt pants and at greater than a point blank range, it's really not that bad. Definitely not effective as a weapon. We open one of the episodes of the interweb video show that we do with him shooting glass bottles with it at about 10'. They get knocked over, but they don't seem to break. -vin On Sep 30, 2008, at 8:34 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > Here's something I have been wondering about: Would > these nailers make effective weapons? > > This would be a good thing for Mythbusters to try- > they could use their ballistic gel, or maybe even a > pig carcass... > > Doug > > > --- "David C." wrote: > >> I just picked up what could possibly be my most >> dangerous tool- a >> Hitachi NR83A2 framing nailer. It's awesome. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive -- Dispatch From The TE Labs show @ http://www.youtube.com/user/temotorworks TE Motorworks, Inc. Post Industrial Laboratory 215-426-1447 From opposumking at verizon.net Wed Oct 1 03:57:48 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 05:57:48 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat References: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000f01c923ac$2997a180$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> A nail from a nail gun can poke holes in you, but is unlikely to kill you, in my opinion. A nail has little mass, so it doesn't carry much inertia. That means it's got weak power to penetrate when flung. We've all seen this when we've gotten sloppy and let our nailer bounce or sit off the surface. The nail sits proud of the wood. This lack of inertia will rapidly grow worse with distance from the nail gun. Nails also have no expansion. So the trauma one sees from a bullet would not take place. At the most, they will poke a hole. Not that a hole is pleasant mind you, or inherently non-lethal. A bow kills this way, by shooting an arrow that pokes a hole, but the hole must be deep. Due to a nails lack of inertia, the hole is not likely to be deep. The velocity is low, compared to a bullet. So hydroshock (another form of tissue damage) would not take place. Doubly so due to the pointed end of a nail. So, a nail shot from a nail gun, at very close range, aimed at the chest, not striking a rib, could well penetrate deeply enough to poke the heart and possibly result in your death. Otherwise, you're going to scream and curse, but survive. My opinion and speculation only. As a sidebar to nail stability, I've watched nails shot from nail guns (we used to have shooting competitions with them at a place I worked), they do not tumble. They tend to continue straight quite nicely for their travel. From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Oct 1 04:24:38 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:24:38 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat Message-ID: <100120081024.16726.48E34FE6000DD9CA00004156220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> a friend's dad took a nail to the head. he was a bit crazy, but they say he was like that before the incident... -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "David C." > And not necessarily fatal for a head shot. Someone on the Sawmill Creek > forum posted a reply with XRays of a number of guys that took a nail to > the head with little or no long term damage. Since they don't expand, > yaw or tumble they do minimal damage. I'm not going to volunteer for a > Hitachi-lobotomy, though. From paul.mele at usermail.com Wed Oct 1 06:14:19 2008 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:14:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat; fatalities from nail guns In-Reply-To: <100120081024.16726.48E34FE6000DD9CA00004156220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> References: <100120081024.16726.48E34FE6000DD9CA00004156220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001701c923bf$3bd26660$b3773320$@mele@usermail.com> in a study of 3600 injuries during an 8 year time period, no fatal injuries reported... http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0400/d000436/d000436.html PM From jdinnis at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 06:39:34 2008 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:39:34 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <000f01c923ac$2997a180$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> References: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net> <000f01c923ac$2997a180$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: A framing nail has more mass than a bullet from a .223 rifle. The velocity is the deciding factor. The .223 round is doing about 2000fps when it hits you. I have not chronographed a nail (yet) but I am guessing it is less than 500fps when it leaves the nail gun. It would be interesting to get a mythbusters style experiment set up. Use balistics gel and create an uber-nailgun that can get some decent velocity on them. Then compare the damage from a .223 FMJ to a framing nail at similar velocity. On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 4:57 AM, Nolan wrote: > A nail from a nail gun can poke holes in you, but is unlikely to kill you, > in my opinion. > > A nail has little mass, so it doesn't carry much inertia. That means it's > got weak power to penetrate when flung. We've all seen this when we've > gotten sloppy and let our nailer bounce or sit off the surface. The nail > sits proud of the wood. This lack of inertia will rapidly grow worse with > distance from the nail gun. > > Nails also have no expansion. So the trauma one sees from a bullet would > not take place. At the most, they will poke a hole. Not that a hole is > pleasant mind you, or inherently non-lethal. A bow kills this way, by > shooting an arrow that pokes a hole, but the hole must be deep. Due to a > nails lack of inertia, the hole is not likely to be deep. > > The velocity is low, compared to a bullet. So hydroshock (another form of > tissue damage) would not take place. Doubly so due to the pointed end of a > nail. > > So, a nail shot from a nail gun, at very close range, aimed at the chest, > not striking a rib, could well penetrate deeply enough to poke the heart and > possibly result in your death. Otherwise, you're going to scream and curse, > but survive. My opinion and speculation only. > > As a sidebar to nail stability, I've watched nails shot from nail guns (we > used to have shooting competitions with them at a place I worked), they do > not tumble. They tend to continue straight quite nicely for their travel. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Oct 1 07:02:31 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:02:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: References: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net><000f01c923ac$2997a180$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: and who's got time to do this ???? you guys must have easy jobs !!!!! if ya'll are looking for something to fill up your time... I've got a '53 f-100 frame and cab that need block sanding... john ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Innis" To: "Nolan" Cc: "Shop Talk List" Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat >A framing nail has more mass than a bullet from a .223 rifle. The > velocity is the deciding factor. The .223 round is doing about > 2000fps when it hits you. I have not chronographed a nail (yet) but I > am guessing it is less than 500fps when it leaves the nail gun. It > would be interesting to get a mythbusters style experiment set up. > Use balistics gel and create an uber-nailgun that can get some decent > velocity on them. Then compare the damage from a .223 FMJ to a > framing nail at similar velocity. > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 4:57 AM, Nolan wrote: >> A nail from a nail gun can poke holes in you, but is unlikely to kill >> you, >> in my opinion. >> >> A nail has little mass, so it doesn't carry much inertia. That means >> it's >> got weak power to penetrate when flung. We've all seen this when we've >> gotten sloppy and let our nailer bounce or sit off the surface. The nail >> sits proud of the wood. This lack of inertia will rapidly grow worse >> with >> distance from the nail gun. >> >> Nails also have no expansion. So the trauma one sees from a bullet would >> not take place. At the most, they will poke a hole. Not that a hole is >> pleasant mind you, or inherently non-lethal. A bow kills this way, by >> shooting an arrow that pokes a hole, but the hole must be deep. Due to a >> nails lack of inertia, the hole is not likely to be deep. >> >> The velocity is low, compared to a bullet. So hydroshock (another form >> of >> tissue damage) would not take place. Doubly so due to the pointed end of >> a >> nail. >> >> So, a nail shot from a nail gun, at very close range, aimed at the chest, >> not striking a rib, could well penetrate deeply enough to poke the heart >> and >> possibly result in your death. Otherwise, you're going to scream and >> curse, >> but survive. My opinion and speculation only. >> >> As a sidebar to nail stability, I've watched nails shot from nail guns >> (we >> used to have shooting competitions with them at a place I worked), they >> do >> not tumble. They tend to continue straight quite nicely for their >> travel. >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive >> > > > > -- > ================================= > = Never offend people with style when you = > = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = > ================================= > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From trevor at boicey.com Wed Oct 1 09:16:15 2008 From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:16:15 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net> References: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48E3943F.3050503@boicey.com> David C. wrote: > I just picked up what could possibly be my most dangerous tool- a > Hitachi NR83A2 framing nailer. It's awesome. Framing nailers are such great labour saving devices that they are probably worth the risk, but it seems everybody has anecdotes of the danger... My father in law nailed two of his fingers to a stud about a month ago. One time with a roofing nailed I shot a nail inadvertently at my mother as she was passing my a shingle. The gun just went off completely on it's own and whistled one over he shoulder. I wasn't on the trigger at all, and certainly the "bump" lever wasn't touching anything. The other danger is slamming a nail through a board into your hand on the other side holding it, or somebody on the other side working on something else. Great tools, but treat them like a handgun that's always loaded. From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Oct 1 09:40:19 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <710281.25168.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well, all you need is some setup that will allow you to block-sand while you are sitting at your desk in front of a PC. :-) I am in your situation with my '31 ford sedan (see 31ford.dougbraun.com). By the time I finish, it will probably be too cold to paint... Doug --- john niolon wrote: > and who's got time to do this ???? you guys must > have easy jobs !!!!! > if ya'll are looking for something to fill up your > time... I've got a '53 > f-100 > frame and cab that need block sanding... From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Oct 1 09:48:43 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:48:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48E39BDB.4070408@xxiii.com> Doug Braun wrote: > Here's something I have been wondering about: Would > these nailers make effective weapons? Hmm, well it's been done in either "Die Hard" or "Lethal Weapon", can't remember which. > This would be a good thing for Mythbusters to try- > they could use their ballistic gel, or maybe even a Gawd... I HATE Mythbusters. Except for Kari who is an AMAZING babe :) They use NO scientific method and NO reference to previously determined stuff. It's entirely [sloppy] empirical by two guys who have no real engineering or scientific credentials. OK.... it's a DAMN TV SHOW. It's entertainment, not a documentary. But it still annoys me! -Wayne From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Wed Oct 1 10:01:13 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:01:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net> References: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48E39EC9.3020605@HorneSystemsTx.com> Framing nailers (all nailers in general) are great! I have a full set from brad nailers up to framing nailers and wouldn't think about working without them. In the 15 years I have been using them I have had one injury and one safety breach because of me using the framing nailers. I was nailing blocking into a wall, holding the 2x4 block between two studs with my hand about 16" away from the gun. I pulled the trigger and my thumb light up! It was bleeding and I figured that the nail had ricocheted off the stud and grazed my thumb. Cleaning it up showed a small nick. Not bad, I mused, but what is this blood on the other side of my thumb??!?? It turns out that the nail went into the stud and followed the grain back out, launching the nail towards my thumb. The nail (#16) went though my thumb head and all! I never found the nail, but an X-ray found that it had totally missed the bone. The other time I was nailing siding to the studs and was walking down the stud with the gun, shooting #8 nails every foot. One nail head blew through the siding. I figured I had wandered off the stud and tried again, only to have the same thing happen. Turns out that I was nailing a stud over a door and was now shooting through the door opening. Glad there was nobody on the other side! All my guns are set for sequential use. Folks who use their guns daily generally bounce nail, but I am too safety conscious for that. Even though I have been using guns for a long time, I would rather take the extra time to be safer than make another trip to the ER. Peace, Pat Thusly spake David C.: > I just picked up what could possibly be my most dangerous tool- a > Hitachi NR83A2 framing nailer. It's awesome. > > I have a small framing job coming up (framing in a 12 x 12 foot rolling > door opening on my pole building shop and installing a pair of 2'6" > doors in the new wall to replace the rolling door) and wasn't looking > forward to swinging a framing hammer any more. > > I did a little research on the web and went through a couple of pawn > shops and found that apparently the Hitachi NR83A is kind of the default > framing nailer for most of the framing carpenters around here. > Everything I read and heard gave me the impression that they are pretty > bulletproof. One pawn shop had about seven of them in varying > conditions, so I picked out the one that seemed to be in the best shape > and paid $137 (plus tax) for it. I stopped at the orange Borg and > bought a box each of Senco 16d and 8d nails for it, took it out to the > shop and tried it out. It works great. I have a few brad nailers from > 23 to 16 gauge, but I've never used a framing nailer. This thing is an > animal. Fortunately it's the newer A2 model so I can switch the trigger > from bump firing to sequential firing. I tried it both ways, and bump > firing gave me a lot of double nails. I can see where bump firing would > be great for installing subflooring or sheathing, but for framing > (especially toe nailing) I'm going to stick to sequential firing. > > So, anyone got any good framing nailer stories or tips? > > I'm almost looking forward to the framing job. I wish I had it a few > years ago when I built the 24' x 48' tractor shed on the back of the shop. > > Dave C > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1701 - Release Date: 9/30/2008 7:08 PM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 10:32:45 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 12:32:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <48E39BDB.4070408@xxiii.com> References: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48E39BDB.4070408@xxiii.com> Message-ID: I'm a scientist, and I find Mythbusters application of the scientific method to be hit or miss. Sometimes they're fairly rigorous, and others not so much... I do find the show to be entertaining though. Now this new show "Smash Lab" on Discovery on the other hand... It is hard for me to articulate how terrible and unwatchable it is. They tried to copy the Mythbusters formula, but failed badly (IMO). -Paul On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Wayne wrote: > Gawd... I HATE Mythbusters. Except for Kari who is an AMAZING babe :) > They use NO scientific method and NO reference to previously > determined stuff. It's entirely [sloppy] empirical by two guys who have > no real engineering or scientific credentials. OK.... it's a DAMN TV > SHOW. It's entertainment, not a documentary. But it still annoys me! > > -Wayne From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Oct 1 10:48:56 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <48E39BDB.4070408@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <961956.14111.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Scottie's pretty good, too... Doug > Gawd... I HATE Mythbusters. Except for Kari who is > an AMAZING babe :) > They use NO scientific method and NO reference to > previously > determined stuff. It's entirely [sloppy] empirical > by two guys who have > no real engineering or scientific credentials. > OK.... it's a DAMN TV > SHOW. It's entertainment, not a documentary. But > it still annoys me! From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Oct 1 11:28:05 2008 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <961956.14111.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <961956.14111.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081001131919.H65317@itonami.pair.com> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Doug Braun wrote: > Gawd... I HATE Mythbusters. Except for Kari who is > an AMAZING babe :) > They use NO scientific method and NO reference to > previously determined stuff. It's entirely [sloppy] empirical > by two guys who have no real engineering or scientific credentials. > OK.... it's a DAMN TV SHOW. It's entertainment, not a documentary. > But it still annoys me! For varying degrees of entertainment, look up the Mythbusters fan forum. These people are so stupid it's frightening, but fortunately all they do is watch TV and worship the all-knowing Mythbusters team. I went on there one time, after watching a particularly bad show, and asked why the show was so sloppy and obviously wrong so often. To sum up, they kicked me off for daring to question the almighties. This despite my biggest complaint being their failed attempt to replicate a Dukes of Hazzard style car jump with a remote control car. The MB morons (show and forum) concluded that it was impossible. They liked it not one bit when I posted the Youtube video of Ken Block jumping his Subaru 25' farther than their 'impossible' distance. To most people, that would call into question the amount of "Busting" going on. -- David Hillman From jdrush at enter.net Wed Oct 1 13:33:51 2008 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: References: <355173.65217.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48E39BDB.4070408@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <48E3D09F.70402@enter.net> Paul Parkanzky wrote: > Now this new show "Smash Lab" on Discovery on the other hand... It is > hard for me to articulate how terrible and unwatchable it is. They > tried to copy the Mythbusters formula, but failed badly (IMO). Yeah, kinda like the US version of Top Gear. (I predict.) Jon From strovato at optonline.net Wed Oct 1 14:44:27 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:44:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <20081001131919.H65317@itonami.pair.com> References: <961956.14111.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081001131919.H65317@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <0K8200A8ZUYHEK80@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yeah, that's the biggest problem with Mythbusters. They seem to have the idea that if they can't do it, then it is impossible, and therefore the myth is busted. At 01:28 PM 10/1/2008, David Hillman wrote: > This despite my biggest complaint being their failed attempt to >replicate a Dukes of Hazzard style car jump with a remote control car. >The MB morons (show and forum) concluded that it was impossible. They >liked it not one bit when I posted the Youtube video of Ken Block jumping >his Subaru 25' farther than their 'impossible' distance. > > To most people, that would call into question the amount of "Busting" >going on. From mpless at ucsd.edu Wed Oct 1 15:04:33 2008 From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:04:33 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question Message-ID: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> I recently moved into a new place that actually has enough room for an air compressor. I'm looking for something that would be general purpose in nature and relatively inexpensive. It's been years since I've done any serious work that requires a continuous air flow, and I don't expect to be doing any major auto restoration any time soon. I'm looking for something that can pump tires and run nailers and other light duty cycle air tools at the moment, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with a woefully inadequate air supply for down the road. My budget is probably in the $300 range. I'm a bit skeptical of most of the current "oil less" compressors and have been looking for something with a more traditional motor/belt/compressor setup, with limited success. Can anyone recommend the current Craftsman/Lowes/Home Depot "oil less" compressors? I'm even considering something cheap from Harbor Freight until I can figure out what my actual needs are goind to be. Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! --Marcus From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Oct 1 16:01:49 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:01:49 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question Message-ID: <100120082201.10034.48E3F34D000B596400002732220702065304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> I'm not sure how well this new guy is going to fit in 'round here. what's this nonsense about a 'budget' for a tool and sensible needs analysis? marcus, if it were me, I'd probably check out craigslist or similar and see if I could pick up a used oil-lube pump. and get a bigger one than you think you want now, even if it's not the grandmaster of compressors. you'll always want it to be bigger. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Marcus Pless > I recently moved into a new place that actually has enough > room for an air compressor. I'm looking for something that > would be general purpose in nature and relatively inexpensive. > It's been years since I've done any serious work that > requires a continuous air flow, and I don't expect to be > doing any major auto restoration any time soon. I'm looking > for something that can pump tires and run nailers and other > light duty cycle air tools at the moment, but I don't want > to shoot myself in the foot with a woefully inadequate air > supply for down the road. My budget is probably in the $300 > range. From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 16:04:50 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:04:50 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question In-Reply-To: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> References: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: I had one of the ~30 gallon Craftsman Oil-less compressors for a long time. The big plus is that it's cheap (I think we paid $250 on sale). Also on the plus side is that it provides enough air to do a decent bit of work as long as you're not running a sander or something. It's also nice that it runs on 110. On the negative side is that it will cycle a lot and when it does it's really loud. Very irritating. Also, you'll feel like you're running it to death if you try to do anything that takes a decent bit of air. If your budget is really $300 then I'd buy the Craftsman. FWIW, I bought my 60 gallon IR for ~$600 and it's a whole lot more compressor. It doesn't cycle nearly as often and when it does it isn't so loud that it drives me out of the garage. If you have 220V access and can wait to save up a bit more money I'd recommend holding off and getting the one you're going to want to end up with anyway. -Paul On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Marcus Pless wrote: > I recently moved into a new place that actually has enough > room for an air compressor. I'm looking for something that > would be general purpose in nature and relatively inexpensive. > It's been years since I've done any serious work that > requires a continuous air flow, and I don't expect to be > doing any major auto restoration any time soon. I'm looking > for something that can pump tires and run nailers and other > light duty cycle air tools at the moment, but I don't want > to shoot myself in the foot with a woefully inadequate air > supply for down the road. My budget is probably in the $300 > range. > > I'm a bit skeptical of most of the current "oil less" > compressors and have been looking for something with a more > traditional motor/belt/compressor setup, with limited success. > Can anyone recommend the current Craftsman/Lowes/Home Depot > "oil less" compressors? I'm even considering something cheap > from Harbor Freight until I can figure out what my actual > needs are goind to be. > > Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > --Marcus From jblair1948 at cox.net Wed Oct 1 16:23:08 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:23:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question In-Reply-To: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> References: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081001181802.01d38638@cox.net> At 05:04 PM 10/1/2008, Marcus Pless wrote: >I recently moved into a new place that actually has enough room for an air >compressor. I'm looking for something that would be general purpose in nature >and relatively inexpensive...... >but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with a woefully inadequate air >supply for down the road. My budget is probably in the $300 range. Marcus, I'd look for something that is oil lubed, a 30 gal or bigger storage tank, and 220V. I purchased a Craftsman compressor like that back in about '90 for $380. You can definately get some small ones for about $100 to inflate tires and run a nail gun, but that's about it. If you can forsee doing any type of automotive work, body work, or even finishing wood work, metal work - media blasting, I'd go the extra money and get a compressor like I described or bigger. I'd rather have spent a little too much and have more compressor than I need, than not have the ability to do some thing in the future. (Spelled through away the old one and buy a new one.) John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jblair1948 at cox.net Wed Oct 1 16:47:10 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:47:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081001184700.01d2efa8@cox.net> At 05:04 PM 10/1/2008, Marcus Pless wrote: >I recently moved into a new place that actually has enough room for an air >compressor. I'm looking for something that would be general purpose in nature >and relatively inexpensive...... >but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with a woefully inadequate air >supply for down the road. My budget is probably in the $300 range. Marcus, I'd look for something that is oil lubed, a 30 gal or bigger storage tank, and 220V. I purchased a Craftsman compressor like that back in about '90 for $380. You can definately get some small ones for about $100 to inflate tires and run a nail gun, but that's about it. If you can forsee doing any type of automotive work, body work, or even finishing wood work, metal work - media blasting, I'd go the extra money and get a compressor like I described or bigger. I'd rather have spent a little too much and have more compressor than I need, than not have the ability to do some thing in the future. (Spelled through away the old one and buy a new one.) John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 16:56:13 2008 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:56:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question In-Reply-To: References: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: *I'll echo trying the used market and don't be afraid of old machines that have been maintained: My 80 gallon has a 1947 tag on the tank, the original compressor and motor. I've changed out the control valving switch and the regulator but it's been under continuous use and pressure for 60 years: 40 years in a local garage and 20 with me.* ** *More unsolicited advice: give thought to building a sound surpression enclosure.* *Tony in Texas* From mbarre at juno.com Wed Oct 1 16:55:09 2008 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:55:09 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question Message-ID: <20081001.185509.12185.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> I picked up a nice single stage IR (sounds like the one Paul has) used off Craigs list for only $350. A fellow had it in his basement and it didn't look like it had been used a lot. I had to go pick it up with my truck and he helped me get it out of the basement but I am thrilled with it. If you don't have to have new you can pick up some decent deals if you are patient. Matt -- "Paul Parkanzky" wrote: I had one of the ~30 gallon Craftsman Oil-less compressors for a long time. The big plus is that it's cheap (I think we paid $250 on sale). Also on the plus side is that it provides enough air to do a decent bit of work as long as you're not running a sander or something. It's also nice that it runs on 110. On the negative side is that it will cycle a lot and when it does it's really loud. Very irritating. Also, you'll feel like you're running it to death if you try to do anything that takes a decent bit of air. If your budget is really $300 then I'd buy the Craftsman. FWIW, I bought my 60 gallon IR for ~$600 and it's a whole lot more compressor. It doesn't cycle nearly as often and when it does it isn't so loud that it drives me out of the garage. If you have 220V access and can wait to save up a bit more money I'd recommend holding off and getting the one you're going to want to end up with anyway. -Paul On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Marcus Pless wrote: > I recently moved into a new place that actually has enough > room for an air compressor. I'm looking for something that > would be general purpose in nature and relatively inexpensive. > It's been years since I've done any serious work that > requires a continuous air flow, and I don't expect to be > doing any major auto restoration any time soon. I'm looking > for something that can pump tires and run nailers and other > light duty cycle air tools at the moment, but I don't want > to shoot myself in the foot with a woefully inadequate air > supply for down the road. My budget is probably in the $300 > range. > > I'm a bit skeptical of most of the current "oil less" > compressors and have been looking for something with a more > traditional motor/belt/compressor setup, with limited success. > Can anyone recommend the current Craftsman/Lowes/Home Depot > "oil less" compressors? I'm even considering something cheap > from Harbor Freight until I can figure out what my actual > needs are goind to be. > > Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > --Marcus You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the satellite television package that meets your needs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mzvzadOhoUtma0OsJpMUAX7naw RlJ2Bb7HOcmr04P4OguJw/ From jibjib at att.net Wed Oct 1 18:38:54 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:38:54 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: References: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net><000f01c923ac$2997a180$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <4898BBAD3C354B3E8A23AB0F9422CF6E@HPPavilion> Bingo! Give John a gold star! I used to design ammunition and we had flechettes (arrow like ammo) down around the size of a small nail. They had little fins stamped in the back, picture the head of a finishing nail, blown out into four fins, and when shot at high velocity, were nasty little critters. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talkOn Behalf Of John Innis A framing nail has more mass than a bullet from a .223 rifle. The velocity is the deciding factor. From jdrush at enter.net Wed Oct 1 19:50:49 2008 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:50:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] (yet another) air compressor question In-Reply-To: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> References: <1222895073l.5217l.8l@servo.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <48E428F9.2010102@enter.net> Marcus Pless wrote: > I'm a bit skeptical of most of the current "oil less" > compressors and have been looking for something with a more > traditional motor/belt/compressor setup, with limited success. > Can anyone recommend the current Craftsman/Lowes/Home Depot > "oil less" compressors? I'm even considering something cheap > from Harbor Freight until I can figure out what my actual > needs are goind to be. > > Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. I bought the big CH oil-less and have had zero problems with it, but I'm a light user. And look, it is on sale in your price range. Yes, it is noisier than the oiled compressors, but quieter than any other oil-less I've heard. It's bearably loud. Supposedly it is a second generation design that is made to be quieter than the standard oil-less designs. Jon From jdrush at enter.net Wed Oct 1 20:04:01 2008 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:04:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor Stand Message-ID: <48E42C11.5070408@enter.net> My HVAC professional suggested building a 9-inch stand for my heat pump to make it more efficient. He mentioned that landscaping blocks work, but I'd like to build something that looks a little less jury-rigged and would keep the compressor level so it maintains its efficiency. I think blocks would tend to sink over time. I don't want to disconnect the heat pump lines so I will have to jack the chassis in place and build a temporary frame to hold it up, I won't have a lot of room to work. I'm thing of building a rectangle of 2 X 10s on the ground, and filling it with gravel, sand and powdered cement to make a poor-mans concrete pad. Then removing the boards so my wife can decorate the edges any way she choose to make it look more natural in the garden. The compressor is not heavy enough to require the strength of well-mixed concrete and I won't really have the headroom to work concrete anyhow. Thoughts and questions: - The compressor is 15 years old, so I will make the pad way oversized to receive the next heat pump, or maybe two, given the trends in HVAC I see around me. -Will a rigid pad transmit more sound? The compressor is noisy enough already, I don't want more. I'm guessing my poor-man's concrete will be somewhat damped due to it agglomerated nature -Will my poor-man's concrete break down so fast I'll wish I'd gone for good concrete? Jon From chad at linuxeg.com Wed Oct 1 20:35:11 2008 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:35:11 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dangerous tool gloat In-Reply-To: <4898BBAD3C354B3E8A23AB0F9422CF6E@HPPavilion> References: <48E2E2F0.2050109@verizon.net><000f01c923ac$2997a180$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> <4898BBAD3C354B3E8A23AB0F9422CF6E@HPPavilion> Message-ID: <48E4335F.5040907@linuxeg.com> Beehive rounds? Right? chad Jack Brooks wrote: > Bingo! Give John a gold star! > > I used to design ammunition and we had flechettes (arrow like ammo) down > around the size of a small nail. They had little fins stamped in the back, > picture the head of a finishing nail, blown out into four fins, and when > shot at high velocity, were nasty little critters. > > Jack From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Oct 1 21:15:28 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 23:15:28 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor Stand In-Reply-To: <48E42C11.5070408@enter.net> References: <48E42C11.5070408@enter.net> Message-ID: <48E43CD0.7070307@xxiii.com> Rush wrote: > My HVAC professional suggested building a 9-inch stand for my heat pump > to make it more efficient. He mentioned that landscaping blocks work, > but I'd like to build something that looks a little less jury-rigged and Huh??? Can I ask what the logic is behind this? The typical outdoor coil breathes through the top sand sides. I see no air flow advantage. Are you trying to thermally de-couple it from the ground? That does not make sense, as the ground is typically at a more favorable temp for a heat pump to work (think ground sourced heat pump.) I will readily admit I'm prejudiced and cynical, as I've met a lot of HVAC "professionals" with stupid misconceptions, ignorance of basic thermodynamics and physics, and plain dumbness. I think you could see more gain from home insulation, duct sealing, etc. -Wayne From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Thu Oct 2 07:10:25 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:10:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor Stand In-Reply-To: <48E43CD0.7070307@xxiii.com> References: <48E42C11.5070408@enter.net> <48E43CD0.7070307@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <48E4C841.5010603@HorneSystemsTx.com> My initial reaction to Russ was that there is vegetation around the unit and by lifting it, it would be clear of it. I don't see how that can make that much of a difference either, but I am not a professional, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I may be reading too much into what Russ said. As for an easy way to raise the compressor, the HVAC contractor should have access to plastic pads that can be stacked and secured to each other to get as high as you need. The ones I have under my units are about 4" tall They were cheap, and a lot easier than forming and pouring concrete under a unit that needs to be held up in the air while the process goes on. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Wayne: > Rush wrote: > >> My HVAC professional suggested building a 9-inch stand for my heat pump >> to make it more efficient. He mentioned that landscaping blocks work, >> but I'd like to build something that looks a little less jury-rigged and >> > > Huh??? Can I ask what the logic is behind this? The typical outdoor > coil breathes through the top sand sides. I see no air flow advantage. > Are you trying to thermally de-couple it from the ground? That does > not make sense, as the ground is typically at a more favorable temp for > a heat pump to work (think ground sourced heat pump.) > > I will readily admit I'm prejudiced and cynical, as I've met a lot of > HVAC "professionals" with stupid misconceptions, ignorance of basic > thermodynamics and physics, and plain dumbness. > > I think you could see more gain from home insulation, duct sealing, etc. > > > -Wayne > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1702 - Release Date: 10/1/2008 9:05 AM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Oct 3 20:18:17 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:18:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lint Eater Message-ID: I picked up this 'tool' at Lowes recently. http://www.linteater.com/ I was amazed at how much lint came out of the dryer vent line. We are careful to keep the lint filter on the dryer clean. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Oct 4 10:02:31 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:02:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] an new one on me... plumbing Message-ID: We have a standard three br/2 bath house with 4" pvc sewer plumbing... no problems in 15 years... septic tank has been cleaned out three times in that time (health dept rules for a bakery business in the house) I'm redoing a bathroom (had to remove toilet) it's across the wall from the laundry room. I noticed while working in the bathroom that when the washer drained ...the suds from the washer came back up through the toilet piping...cleaned up the mess and thought it was just cause the pipe was open. later after reinstalling the toilet...when the washer drains I get heavy bubbling in both toilets now... never seen that before... both toilets seem to flush well and no other problems with sinks in kitchen, baths or bakery... I'm brainstorming here (not a lot of thunder and lightening in that storm) and wonder if it might be a vent problem ??? or an obstruction in drain pipe ??? washer never overflows or caused any problem before... watyallthink ??? thanks John Everyone seems normal until you get to know them. From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 17:37:24 2008 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 19:37:24 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss Message-ID: I'm wondering if any of the guys here have tried measuring the parasitic energy loss of their hot air furnace, since I know some of you have those meters you can use to measure electricity usage. So I'm in the electrical panel this afternoon, and I noticed the furnace breaker is on, so I turn it off since we're not running the heat just yet. When I turn it off, I hear a buzzing sound stop, which is obviously the heater which is 3 feet to my right. Turn it back on, buzzing continues, back off, buzzing stops. Now I'm not assuming that the heater of all things uses any power when "off" like the way other electronic devices do, but is there even some microscopic amount being used? If so, add that up over the summer season, and it could be worth making sure these things are off... FYI, I usually leave the breaker off until it's heating season, but I think that the technician had left it on when he serviced it about a month ago. Thanks, PJ From gsteve at hammatt.com Sat Oct 4 18:05:27 2008 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:05:27 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PJ Just a quick thought, but do you have an electrostatic air cleaner in the duct work? Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "PJ McGarvey" To: "Talk, Shop" Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss > I'm wondering if any of the guys here have tried measuring the > parasitic > energy loss of their hot air furnace, since I know some of you have > those > meters you can use to measure electricity usage. > > So I'm in the electrical panel this afternoon, and I noticed the > furnace > breaker is on, so I turn it off since we're not running the heat > just yet. > When I turn it off, I hear a buzzing sound stop, which is obviously > the heater > which is 3 feet to my right. Turn it back on, buzzing continues, > back off, > buzzing stops. > > Now I'm not assuming that the heater of all things uses any power > when "off" > like the way other electronic devices do, but is there even some > microscopic > amount being used? If so, add that up over the summer season, and > it could be > worth making sure these things are off... > > FYI, I usually leave the breaker off until it's heating season, but > I think > that the technician had left it on when he serviced it about a month > ago. > > Thanks, > PJ snip From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Sat Oct 4 18:14:14 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 19:14:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot air furnace parasitic loss In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E806D6.4070603@HorneSystemsTx.com> JP, Probably what you are hearing is the control transformer in the furnace. Your thermostat and controls runs on 24V. There will be a small amount of eddy current loss in the transformer, but that's about it. Peace, Pat Thusly spake PJ McGarvey: > I'm wondering if any of the guys here have tried measuring the parasitic > energy loss of their hot air furnace, since I know some of you have those > meters you can use to measure electricity usage. > > So I'm in the electrical panel this afternoon, and I noticed the furnace > breaker is on, so I turn it off since we're not running the heat just yet. > When I turn it off, I hear a buzzing sound stop, which is obviously the heater > which is 3 feet to my right. Turn it back on, buzzing continues, back off, > buzzing stops. > > Now I'm not assuming that the heater of all things uses any power when "off" > like the way other electronic devices do, but is there even some microscopic > amount being used? If so, add that up over the summer season, and it could be > worth making sure these things are off... > > FYI, I usually leave the breaker off until it's heating season, but I think > that the technician had left it on when he serviced it about a month ago. > > Thanks, > PJ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1708 - Release Date: 10/4/2008 11:35 AM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Oct 4 18:36:12 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 19:36:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: an new one on me... plumbing Message-ID: We have a standard three br/2 bath house with 4" pvc sewer plumbing... no problems in 15 years... septic tank has been cleaned out three times in that time (health dept rules for a bakery business in the house) I'm redoing a bathroom (had to remove toilet) it's across the wall from the laundry room. I noticed while working in the bathroom that when the washer drained ...the suds from the washer came back up through the toilet piping...cleaned up the mess and thought it was just cause the pipe was open. later after reinstalling the toilet...when the washer drains I get heavy bubbling in both toilets now... never seen that before... both toilets seem to flush well and no other problems with sinks in kitchen, baths or bakery... I'm brainstorming here (not a lot of thunder and lightening in that storm) and wonder if it might be a vent problem ??? or an obstruction in drain pipe ??? washer never overflows or caused any problem before... watyallthink ??? thanks John Everyone seems normal until you get to know them. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Oct 4 18:40:18 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 20:40:18 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: an new one on me... plumbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E80CF2.3090704@xxiii.com> john niolon wrote: > later after reinstalling the toilet...when the washer drains I get heavy > bubbling in both toilets now... never seen that before... both toilets seem > to flush well and no other problems with sinks in kitchen, baths or I'd guess blockage in the pipe somewhere. I had a bad one last March... backup somewhat like yours. The PVC line out of the house to the septic system is only like 4" underground; apparently during construction, something took a cut out of it. Looked like a roto-tiller blade maybe. Anyway, the tree roots found it and were VERY happy for the easy meal. -Wayne From bill at gingerich.us Sat Oct 4 18:50:44 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (bill at gingerich.us) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 17:50:44 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: an new one on me... plumbing Message-ID: <20081004175044.4412066ecf79773770454ed1d3ca4b3c.df9f2c8167.wbe@email.secureserver.net> John, I had a similar "bubbling" issue at work several months ago. I thought venting also, but our plumber said it was almost always the result of a blockage in the drain line somewhere. Our sinks and toilets seemed to work fine, other than the bubbling. When he ran his camera down the line, there was indeed a partial blockage. Once that was cleared, the bubbling went away. BillG OKC -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: an new one on me... plumbing From: "john niolon" Date: Sat, October 04, 2008 7:36 pm To: "shop-talk" We have a standard three br/2 bath house with 4" pvc sewer plumbing... no problems in 15 years... septic tank has been cleaned out three times in that time (health dept rules for a bakery business in the house) I'm redoing a bathroom (had to remove toilet) it's across the wall from the laundry room. I noticed while working in the bathroom that when the washer drained ...the suds from the washer came back up through the toilet piping...cleaned up the mess and thought it was just cause the pipe was open. later after reinstalling the toilet...when the washer drains I get heavy bubbling in both toilets now... never seen that before... both toilets seem to flush well and no other problems with sinks in kitchen, baths or bakery... I'm brainstorming here (not a lot of thunder and lightening in that storm) and wonder if it might be a vent problem ??? or an obstruction in drain pipe ??? washer never overflows or caused any problem before... watyallthink ??? thanks John From mark at sccaprepared.com Sat Oct 4 22:07:01 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 00:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] adding RV dump connection to septic Message-ID: Howdy, I've got a fairly typical rural septic tank (two, actually) with leech field setup. I've also got an RV. I want to put in a T or whatever in the line from the house going to the septic tank, with a screw on cap so that I can dump the RV's tanks at home. Is there anything to this beyond just digging down to the pipe, gluing in a T with a capped riser, and filling the hole back in? You do glue septic pipe, right? Do I need to worry about freezing weather with this? The existing pipe is (presumably) below the frost line, but now I'm going to have a 2' or 3' or whatever pipe with essentially no insulation going up above the frost line... Thanks for any advice! Mark From mark at sccaprepared.com Sat Oct 4 22:22:31 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 00:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] adding RV dump connection to septic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, Sorry, replace "gluing" there with "rubber (femco?) couplings"... I can't imaging I'll easily be able to get the pipe to move enough to work a glued in T into place. Mark On Sun, 5 Oct 2008, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > I've got a fairly typical rural septic tank (two, actually) with leech > field setup. I've also got an RV. > > I want to put in a T or whatever in the line from the house going to the > septic tank, with a screw on cap so that I can dump the RV's tanks at > home. > > Is there anything to this beyond just digging down to the pipe, gluing in > a T with a capped riser, and filling the hole back in? You do glue septic > pipe, right? > > Do I need to worry about freezing weather with this? The existing pipe is > (presumably) below the frost line, but now I'm going to have a 2' or 3' or > whatever pipe with essentially no insulation going up above the frost > line... > > Thanks for any advice! > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From BSHolden at aol.com Sat Oct 4 22:51:04 2008 From: BSHolden at aol.com (BSHolden at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 00:51:04 EDT Subject: [Shop-talk] adding RV dump connection to septic Message-ID: Mark; 1) My cleanout from the barn toilet consists of a tee in the mainline that is right at ground level, in fact I would not hesitate to use that fitting for dumping the RV waste tanks (and had to do so via a hand carried 5 gallon bucket 14 years ago when living on-site in a camping trailer while the new house was being completed). My septic installer explained to me that the heat generated by the bacteria from the septic system would keep the pipes warm enough to prevent freezing. 14 years on and I have not had a problem with that install. 2) At about the same time while I was drilling fence post holes just 4' deep I hit the septic main line from the house. Repaired with the rubber couplers and a short length of the 4" PVC line. The rubber couplers allowed enough wriggle room to achieve the repair. Just eat your Wheaties that morning because wrestling those couplers takes some strength. Oh, and cut off the water supply to the house as wives and other occupants have an ingrained habit to flush the toilet while you're in the middle of your project. (Stinky) Bart Holden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ In a message dated 10/4/2008 11:23:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, mark at sccaprepared.com writes: Sorry, replace "gluing" there with "rubber (femco?) couplings"... I can't imaging I'll easily be able to get the pipe to move enough to work a glued in T into place. Mark On Sun, 5 Oct 2008, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > I've got a fairly typical rural septic tank (two, actually) with leech > field setup. I've also got an RV. > > I want to put in a T or whatever in the line from the house going to the > septic tank, with a screw on cap so that I can dump the RV's tanks at > home. > > Is there anything to this beyond just digging down to the pipe, gluing in > a T with a capped riser, and filling the hole back in? You do glue septic > pipe, right? > > Do I need to worry about freezing weather with this? The existing pipe is > (presumably) below the frost line, but now I'm going to have a 2' or 3' or > whatever pipe with essentially no insulation going up above the frost > line... **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) From cornerexit at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 20:58:46 2008 From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:58:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole building roof insulation repair In-Reply-To: <20080922.133347.12952.28.gpd4@juno.com> References: <20080922.133347.12952.28.gpd4@juno.com> Message-ID: <9550CF782132485682D7C2E61DC6C0A1@Waynehouseputer> Hi George, Thanks for the reply. I had a chance to take a photo of it tonight. It feels like smooth vinyl, maybe 2-3" thick as you suspected. Is this type of tape and insulation available at the box stores usually, or do I need to look elsewhere? Attached a picture. Thanks Wayne http://jacksonii.smugmug.com/gallery/5260893_NseWG#389222200_LNDdi-M-LB -----Original Message----- From: George P Dausch IV [mailto:gpd4 at juno.com] Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 10:34 AM To: cornerexit at gmail.com Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pole building roof insulation repair It is a white vinyl faced blanket insulation. Available in thicknesses from 1" to about 9". Your pic looks like it might be 2". It comes in a roll in widths from 2' to 8'. The white vinyl facing might be plain or reinforced in a myriad of different patterms. There is a matching tape available from the laminators that match the vinyl and will effect simple repairs. I might be able to help you with the tape if you give me a close up pic of the facing. GPD4 From mark at bradakis.com Wed Oct 8 04:17:02 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:17:02 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] List troubles Message-ID: <48EC889E.1020600@bradakis.com> Something odd is going on with the server, I'm looking into it. mjb. From 57healey at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 09:49:05 2008 From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:49:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence Message-ID: <743b1e2f0810100849m61e284cv771122fed3df3b91@mail.gmail.com> I haven't heard anything from the lists in a couple of days. Is everything still up? -- Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out." 1977 Newport '28 From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Oct 12 16:05:50 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Best paint for exterior metal? Message-ID: <170654.68244.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I need to install a replacement set of steel basement doors. They come in primer, and must be topcoated. What's your favorite brand of paint for that sort of thing? I'd like to use something tougher and longer-lasting than Rustoleum, etc. Doug From ronglue at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 20:15:07 2008 From: ronglue at yahoo.com (Ron Horwitz) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] compressor in garage expansion In-Reply-To: <2FCE06A358494F18B662020C342DE72C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <674598.66468.qm@web36308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > If the climate permits, put the air compressor > outside, like in a little shed attached to the outside > wall. It will be much less noisy inside when the > thing is running. > Even if the compressor is inside behind a closed door, it is a huge improvement. I built a closet in the garage. When I did it, I had all sorts of fancy plans to egg-foam the inside for sound proofing. Never needed it. When the compressor kicked on I could hear it to know that it was cycling, but not loud enough to force a music volume increase. Doing this is highly recommended and makes the environment a lot more pleasant. Ron From peterwmurray at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 10:05:15 2008 From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:05:15 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor Stand In-Reply-To: <48E42C11.5070408@enter.net> References: <48E42C11.5070408@enter.net> Message-ID: I'm typically not one to replace something that is still working, but... Given that the unit is 15 years old, you might find that a newer, more efficient replacement unit is a very cost-effective upgrade, and would allow you the opportunity to prepare the location properly for long-term use. Ran across this unit, and it looks very nice - and it is made in the USA: http://www.gotohallowell.com/acadia.html -Peter -- Peter Murray (N3IXY) Oak Hill, VA From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Tue Oct 14 08:07:01 2008 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:07:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f0810100849m61e284cv771122fed3df3b91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5ED8876A5B4ADCA7D45D5D224D8A33@DADSTOY> Read you 5 x 5.....people are just distracted. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Patton Dickson Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:49 AM To: Healey List; Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence I haven't heard anything from the lists in a couple of days. Is everything still up? -- Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out." 1977 Newport '28 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From eric at megageek.com Tue Oct 14 09:42:56 2008 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:42:56 +0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence In-Reply-To: <4B5ED8876A5B4ADCA7D45D5D224D8A33@DADSTOY> Message-ID: Tell me about it. The motor pool here has a BRAND NEW Miller 340 welder. It's the cats meow. Problem is, it doesn't work (it's brand new.) They don't want to send it back to the US (months without it,) so they said if I fix it, I can use it whenever I want. Couple that with a scrap yard with plenty of military goodies in it and I'm in HEAVEN! I haven't run it myself yet, but they say that it just revs full throttle, with NO power to the panel. There is a throttle servo that looks like it could be a problem. It has a red, black, and white wire going into it. The schematics has the white wire listed as "CS2." But I can't figure out what that is supposed to be. Can anyone familiar with Millers let me know how I can test the servo? can I just put 12vdc across the black and red? Also, I have limited tools but I'm working on getting a meter. What should the readings be at the servo? Also note that the book says that the servo is a "Certified Miller technician serviceable part only." That's great, anyone got the Miller rep for Iraq? Seriously, can anyone help? Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. "Gerald Brazil" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net 10/14/2008 05:11 PM To "'Patton Dickson'" <57healey at gmail.com>, "'Healey List'" , "'Shop-Talk'" cc Subject Re: [Shop-talk] Silence Read you 5 x 5.....people are just distracted. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Patton Dickson Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:49 AM To: Healey List; Shop-Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence I haven't heard anything from the lists in a couple of days. Is everything still up? -- Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out." 1977 Newport '28 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 14 09:53:22 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:53:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence References: <4B5ED8876A5B4ADCA7D45D5D224D8A33@DADSTOY> Message-ID: MJB had said about a week ago that he had some server problems - perhaps that was it ?? > I haven't heard anything from the lists in a couple of days. Is > everything > still up? From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Oct 14 10:15:39 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:15:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DF5984C2E24378A28139EC15D5B59C@OwnerPC> INCH, try over on the miller forum.... they can troubleshoot anything blue... and their tech guys have a forum for problems.... http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/forumdisplay.php?f=2 later John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Silence > Tell me about it. The motor pool here has a BRAND NEW Miller 340 welder. > It's the cats meow. Problem is, it doesn't work (it's brand new.) They > don't want to send it back to the US (months without it,) so they said if > I fix it, I can use it whenever I want. Couple that with a scrap yard > with plenty of military goodies in it and I'm in HEAVEN! > > I haven't run it myself yet, but they say that it just revs full throttle, > with NO power to the panel. There is a throttle servo that looks like it > could be a problem. It has a red, black, and white wire going into it. > The schematics has the white wire listed as "CS2." But I can't figure out > what that is supposed to be. > > Can anyone familiar with Millers let me know how I can test the servo? can > I just put 12vdc across the black and red? > > Also, I have limited tools but I'm working on getting a meter. What > should the readings be at the servo? > > Also note that the book says that the servo is a "Certified Miller > technician serviceable part only." That's great, anyone got the Miller > rep for Iraq? > > Seriously, can anyone help? > > Moose > Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. > > > > "Gerald Brazil" > Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > 10/14/2008 05:11 PM > > To > "'Patton Dickson'" <57healey at gmail.com>, "'Healey List'" > , "'Shop-Talk'" > cc > > Subject > Re: [Shop-talk] Silence > > > > > > > Read you 5 x 5.....people are just distracted. > > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Patton Dickson > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:49 AM > To: Healey List; Shop-Talk > Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence > > > I haven't heard anything from the lists in a couple of days. Is > everything > still up? > > -- > Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX > 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out." 1977 > Newport '28 _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From scott.hall at comcast.net Tue Oct 14 19:20:55 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:20:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence In-Reply-To: <50DF5984C2E24378A28139EC15D5B59C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1166942708.275771224033655618.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I've got a welder-related question. a guy is selling a clarke welder for sale locally. with bottles, $500. I was going to buy a miller 180, but if the clarke is comparable, well, it's less. anybody know anything about their stuff? thanks. scott > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Patton Dickson > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:49 AM > To: Healey List; Shop-Talk > Subject: [Shop-talk] Silence > > > I haven't heard anything from the lists in a couple of days. Is > everything > still up? From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Oct 14 20:46:53 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:46:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] welder-related question In-Reply-To: <1166942708.275771224033655618.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1166942708.275771224033655618.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <48F5599D.5070300@xxiii.com> scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > I've got a welder-related question. a guy is selling a clarke welder for sale locally. with bottles, $500. I was going to buy a miller 180, but if the clarke is comparable, well, it's less. anybody know anything about their stuff? Might wanna clarify the status of the bottles with the seller. Around here, it's assumed the bottles are on lease or loan from one of the vendors, and vendor A won't fill vendor B's bottles. And you pretty much have to show some proof of ownership if they ARE yours to get them filled. -Wayne From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 14:14:30 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:14:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] welder-related question In-Reply-To: <48F5599D.5070300@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <1657566636.41881224101670979.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> thanks guys. any idea about the clarke welders themselves? thanks/ scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne" To: "Shop Talk List" Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:46:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] welder-related question scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > I've got a welder-related question. a guy is selling a clarke welder for sale locally. with bottles, $500. I was going to buy a miller 180, but if the clarke is comparable, well, it's less. anybody know anything about their stuff? Might wanna clarify the status of the bottles with the seller. Around here, it's assumed the bottles are on lease or loan from one of the vendors, and vendor A won't fill vendor B's bottles. And you pretty much have to show some proof of ownership if they ARE yours to get them filled. -Wayne From shiples at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 16:25:47 2008 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:25:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] welder-related question In-Reply-To: <1657566636.41881224101670979.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westche ster.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <48F5599D.5070300@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081015152454.02fa4bf0@mail.comcast.net> At 08:14 PM 10/15/2008 +0000, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: >thanks guys. any idea about the clarke welders themselves? No hard facts here, only passing on observations. These used to be the brand that I'd see in the English car restoration magazines like Practical Classics. At some point in time, the brand crossed the pond and became available in the US. I don't believe that Clarke makes welders. I remember one reference that claimed that at least one model was made in Italy. I can't remember the name of the manufacturer. The advantage of buying Miller or Lincoln is that you can be reasonably sure that support will be there later. You won't get a dumb look at the local supplier when you mention the name. Call up your local welding store and ask for help with a Clarke welder. That'll help you make a decision. From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Oct 16 12:04:06 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:04:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV converter boxes Message-ID: I've have the government coupons for TV converter boxes for a while, and need to use them within a week. The big-box stores tend to have only one brand, no choice or features to decide on. TV isn't all that important to us, but we cancelled cable and will want to watch TV after February, so... Is there anything to look for, or are they all pretty much the same eggroll brand and work the same ? Thanks! Karl A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. Author unknown From bill at gingerich.us Thu Oct 16 12:38:52 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:38:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV converter boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Karl, I bought the ones my local Radio Shack had. The brand is Digital Stream, and they seem to work just fine. In addition to the standard cable connection for output, they also have 3 RCA plugs - audio L & R, and video. Installation was plug and watch. My suspicion is that all the boxes are very similar, given they are trying to do the same thing at similar prices. Some may have a few additional features, but I'm only guessing on that. BillG -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:04 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] TV converter boxes I've have the government coupons for TV converter boxes for a while, and need to use them within a week. The big-box stores tend to have only one brand, no choice or features to decide on. TV isn't all that important to us, but we cancelled cable and will want to watch TV after February, so... Is there anything to look for, or are they all pretty much the same eggroll brand and work the same ? Thanks! Karl A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. Author unknown You are subscribed as bill at gingerich.us Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Oct 16 12:57:02 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? Message-ID: <44073.28698.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, What's is the best way to get rid of a junk (10 year old, 130k miles, rusted out flange) catalytic converter that I have? Is there a cost-effective way to get money for it? Or should I just "donate" it to the local muffler shop? Thanks, Doug From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Oct 16 13:07:17 2008 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? Message-ID: <20081016150647.K49114@itonami.pair.com> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Doug Braun wrote: > What's is the best way to get rid of a junk (10 year > old, 130k miles, rusted out flange) catalytic > converter that I have? Is there a cost-effective way > to get money for it? Or should I just "donate" it to > the local muffler shop? You can sell it. Look on Craigslist, people will pay $50-100 for them, for the platinum. Around here, mainly in the ghetto, people find their cars missing converters after parking them outside. All it takes is a jack, and a battery-powered sawzall to steal one. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-07-06-car-theft_N.htm -- David Hillman From jdrush at enter.net Thu Oct 16 14:24:15 2008 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:24:15 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV converter boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F7A2EF.9060100@enter.net> The remotes are the biggest differentiator. See if they will let you handle one before you buy. I hate mine. Jon Karl Vacek wrote: > I've have the government coupons for TV converter boxes for a while, and need > to use them within a week. The big-box stores tend to have only one brand, no > choice or features to decide on. TV isn't all that important to us, but we > cancelled cable and will want to watch TV after February, so... > > Is there anything to look for, or are they all pretty much the same eggroll > brand and work the same ? > > Thanks! > Karl > > > > > A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters > discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public > treasury. > > Author unknown > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jdrush at enter.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Oct 16 17:55:29 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:55:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] TV converter boxes References: Message-ID: <0656D474C0AA430BB68814E15CD6CF55@CPQ12949640186> The Radio Shack units are very good. Either brand name, Zenith or DTD (or something like that). They work well and their universal remote is quite good. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" To: Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] TV converter boxes > I've have the government coupons for TV converter boxes for a while, and > need > to use them within a week. The big-box stores tend to have only one > brand, no > choice or features to decide on. TV isn't all that important to us, but > we > cancelled cable and will want to watch TV after February, so... > > Is there anything to look for, or are they all pretty much the same > eggroll > brand and work the same ? > > Thanks! > Karl > > > > > A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters > discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public > treasury. > > Author unknown > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as opposumking at verizon.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From scott.hall at comcast.net Sat Oct 18 09:02:15 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:02:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] mig welder In-Reply-To: <50DF5984C2E24378A28139EC15D5B59C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1053515773.316111224342135024.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> so I was going to buy the miller 180...because I thought that's the one I wanted (clarke is a knockoff, apparently). it occurred to me I never asked here. so: which mig do you have, and which one would you get if you could do it again? I'm looking to do this just the once, and I'd like to make it the last mig purchased. and then, where'd you get it? the local guys are nice to talk to, but not worth the 100% increase over ebay at al. thanks. From jibjib at att.net Sat Oct 18 09:39:10 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 08:39:10 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] mig welder In-Reply-To: <1053515773.316111224342135024.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <50DF5984C2E24378A28139EC15D5B59C@OwnerPC> <1053515773.316111224342135024.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <344904D9FC6A4685A7BD9D0BDCF488B9@HPPavilion> I have a Hobart Handler 140, and would buy another. The only point of contention on this unit, which shares components with Miller, is that the amperage rheostat is stepped. While I have never found this to be a detractor, lots of folks prefer a true rheostat control found on the Lincoln and Miller(?) units. I have found that I automatically adjust the wire gap to keep the nice sizzling sound and the steps provided for amperage are fine. Other than this difference, you can't go wrong with any of the big three; Miller, Hobart and Lincoln. Buy on features and price. I purchased a 120v unit for convenience. It will do anything I have thrown at it so far, but occasionally, I've preheated big parts with a MAPP torch first and made multiple passes to finish a weld. I have not yet tried aluminum. I bought mine from Central Welding supply (of WA) mail order while living in NJ. I've since moved to WA. Not having bought my welder from the local shops I have dealt with has never been a detractor. They have all been great with regard to helping me out with supplies; wire, gas, etc. I figure buying the welder locally could help, but depending on price, it's a trade off to consider. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of scott.hall at comcast.net Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 8:02 AM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] mig welder so I was going to buy the miller 180...because I thought that's the one I wanted (clarke is a knockoff, apparently). it occurred to me I never asked here. so: which mig do you have, and which one would you get if you could do it again? I'm looking to do this just the once, and I'd like to make it the last mig purchased. and then, where'd you get it? the local guys are nice to talk to, but not worth the 100% increase over ebay at al. thanks. You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Oct 18 10:00:12 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:00:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] mig welder In-Reply-To: <1053515773.316111224342135024.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westch ester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <50DF5984C2E24378A28139EC15D5B59C@OwnerPC> <1053515773.316111224342135024.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081018113810.01d2f418@cox.net> At 11:02 AM 10/18/2008, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: >so I was going to buy the miller 180...because I thought that's the one I wanted >(clarke is a knockoff, apparently). >so: which mig do you have, and which one would you get if you could do it >again? I'm looking to do this just the once, and I'd like to make it the last mig >purchased. Scott, I guess that depends on what else you have in the way of welding equipment and what you want to do with it. I have a Lincoln SP100, which appears to no longer be made. The now have a 140. My 120 is a great little machine with what I considered a lot of features. It's big advantage is it's 120V and not 220V. It's small, light weight relatively, has continously variable speed and current controls. It also accepts the large (20# ish) spools of wire. I have the gas setup for it and use it as a MIG welder not just wire feed (flux coated) welder. I paid about $800 for the welder, the sleeve for the feed, a spool of .023" wire, the gas bottle, regulator, gloves, and helmet. I also purchased an auto darkening insert for the helmet. I've welded on the chassis of my Bricklin, practiced on various scrap fenders and trunks lids to see how it did on sheet metal. It's has meet most of my welding needs. But I'm not trying to weld anything very thick. When I took a MIG welding class at the local community college, we used a very big Miller machine that was 220V. These monsters weren't cheap by any means. We were running .043" wire and I could not get the hang of welding thin sheet metal with it. I kept burning through the metal. But on large (1/4" and above) plate, I didn't have any problems with the big unit. I also have access to O/A and a stick welder for doing thicker stuff. So I just needed something that would do sheet metal, not 1/4" and above stock. Also what metals do you plan on welding? These small welders work great on steel, but can be problematic on AL. While most say you can weld AL, you really need a different gun that pulls the wire, instead of just pushing it. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From mark at sccaprepared.com Sat Oct 18 12:09:29 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] mig welder In-Reply-To: <1053515773.316111224342135024.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1053515773.316111224342135024.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, 18 Oct 2008, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > so I was going to buy the miller 180...because I thought that's the one > I wanted (clarke is a knockoff, apparently). > > it occurred to me I never asked here. > > so: which mig do you have, and which one would you get if you could do > it again? I'm looking to do this just the once, and I'd like to make it > the last mig purchased. > > and then, where'd you get it? the local guys are nice to talk to, but > not worth the 100% increase over ebay at al. I have a Lincoln SP175 Plus. If I were doing it again, I'd lean toward the Miller 212 or the Lincoln 215 styles. They're significantly more money (not quite double the cost I think), but they've got more power & more duty cycle while they do it, plus tend to be compatible with all the "real" optional stuff. For instance, I can't buy a spool gun for my SP175. I ended up buying mine as a floor model, but www.weldingmart.com seems to have pretty good prices from what I've seen. I've bought consumables from them and always been happy. Mark From scott.hall at comcast.net Sat Oct 18 19:01:01 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:01:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] mig welder In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20081018113810.01d2f418@cox.net> Message-ID: <1096177364.350781224378061970.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> well, I've got a miller ab/p buried in the back of the garage, which is what I learned to tig weld with. it's got a spool gun, stick lead, etc. it also seems to be wired for three phase, which I don't have. but when I get the roundtuits after the move, I'll dig it out and should be covered for anything big and stick stuff, and al/spoolgun mig, I guess. but it's not terribly (or even a little) portable, and it's not even wired at all at the moment, and I'd like to build a go-kart with my son that has suddenly been moved to the front of the project list. I wanted a dedicated mig anyway (that could be moved around the garage, so I didn't have to get a bajillion-foot lead). I could just get a buzz box from home depot, but I'd like a nice machine that could handle almost anything I could want to do. if it's huge or aluminum I'll break out the tig. but I'd like a 'nice' mig I can hang onto, pass down to the kid, etc. this seems to me to be like air compressors--get bigger than you need now, etc., etc. but I've got a monster if I ever need it, so I don't need the ne plus ultra. but yeah, I'd like it to handle larger-than-just-tiny-stuff. so, I thought the 180. but I really don't have a good reason for that. juse seemed nice. but I learned to weld in a fabrication shop and I'll bet that's made me spoiled. I don't want to screw around with low duty cycles or crap stuff. well, to a certain extent, yes, I expect less form a smaller welder, but we used a lincoln (or hobart--it was red) 110 (or something) buzz box once and it was horrible. I'd like to stay away from that stuff. anybody got a180 and like it? or a 212? thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John T. Blair" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 12:00:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] mig welder Scott, I guess that depends on what else you have in the way of welding equipment and what you want to do with it. I have a Lincoln SP100, which appears to no longer be made. The now have a 140. My 120 is a great little machine with what I considered a lot of features. It's big advantage is it's 120V and not 220V. It's small, light weight relatively, has continously variable speed and current controls. It also accepts the large (20# ish) spools of wire. I have the gas setup for it and use it as a MIG welder not just wire feed (flux coated) welder. I paid about $800 for the welder, the sleeve for the feed, a spool of .023" wire, the gas bottle, regulator, gloves, and helmet. I also purchased an auto darkening insert for the helmet. I've welded on the chassis of my Bricklin, practiced on various scrap fenders and trunks lids to see how it did on sheet metal. It's has meet most of my welding needs. But I'm not trying to weld anything very thick. When I took a MIG welding class at the local community college, we used a very big Miller machine that was 220V. These monsters weren't cheap by any means. We were running .043" wire and I could not get the hang of welding thin sheet metal with it. I kept burning through the metal. But on large (1/4" and above) plate, I didn't have any problems with the big unit. I also have access to O/A and a stick welder for doing thicker stuff. So I just needed something that would do sheet metal, not 1/4" and above stock. Also what metals do you plan on welding? These small welders work great on steel, but can be problematic on AL. While most say you can weld AL, you really need a different gun that pulls the wire, instead of just pushing it. From nogera2 at att.net Sun Oct 19 14:47:06 2008 From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 15:47:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Plumbing, pipe run between Trap and vent Message-ID: <9F7247EA9C614CF68403C352326E1D68@Carroom> I'm starting a remodel of one of our bathrooms. As always, SWMBO has chosen a vanity which is will not be a direct fit replacement. I need to move the drain pipe between the trap and the vent pipe. Currently the drain pipe is a direct run in to the stack. If I move the pipe it would have two 90 degree elbows between the trap and main drain-vent ( stack?). Would this be permissible? Basically my question is are elbows permitted between the trap and vent? Second question; The new vanity has two sinks, should I hook them up like a double tub kitchen sink with both sides sharing a single trap or should I install a trap for each side? Note: the distance between the trap and vent pipe is under 4 feet; the slope will not be changed or possibly increased; overall distance between the trap and vent will be increased 4 inches. Thanks in advance Bob Nogueira From rbeels at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 23:44:21 2008 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:44:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Aquapel Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081021013409.03c3e438@technologist.com> Anyone used Aquapel? Research on the 'net turns up only a few sites. For those who don't know, it's a Rain-X competitor made by PPG that claims to chemically bond with the glass and create a much longer-lasting effect. I've been using Rain-X and Rain-X wiper fluid and it's OK but not great. Cheers! From rbeels at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 23:47:59 2008 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:47:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <44073.28698.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <44073.28698.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081021014507.03c32738@yahoo.com> As David said, sell it. I was looking for a new car. Wife dragged me to the Hyundai lot to look at the Genesis (nice car for a Hyundai, lots of goodies for the money). All their cars on the lot are unlocked 24x7. They don't even have cameras in the lot. I asked the sales guy about this and he said the only problem they've had with the cars is unrelated to locking the cars. 6 months ago every cat in the lot was stripped off the cars one weekend. A few battery-operated sawz-alls is my guess.... At 10/16/2008 at 14:57, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Doug Braun's keyboard and said: >Hello, > >What's is the best way to get rid of a junk (10 year >old, 130k miles, rusted out flange) catalytic >converter that I have? Is there a cost-effective way >to get money for it? Or should I just "donate" it to >the local muffler shop? Cheers! From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Oct 21 07:27:54 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20081021014507.03c32738@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <212341.59566.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Actually, I decided to keep it. I bought and installed an aftermarket (Wagner brand) converter. It fit reasonably well, but, like all aftermarket parts, it was not nearly as well-made as the original. It also had a substantially smaller catalyst matrix, and no heat shields like the original. Since the original converter worked fine and the matrix looked fine, I'll keep it, and when the aftermarket converter eventually fails, I'll repair the original's rusted-out flange and re-install it. And if the I get rid of the car while the replacement cat is still OK, I can sell the old junk one cat then. I'll just consider it as part of my investment portfolio :-) BTW, the recycling places wil pay onthe average about $60 for an OEM cat, but only $5 or $10 for an aftermarket one. Doug --- Richard Beels wrote: > As David said, sell it. > > I was looking for a new car. Wife dragged me to the > Hyundai lot to > look at the Genesis (nice car for a Hyundai, lots of > goodies for the > money). All their cars on the lot are unlocked > 24x7. They don't > even have cameras in the lot. I asked the sales guy > about this and > he said the only problem they've had with the cars > is unrelated to > locking the cars. 6 months ago every cat in the lot > was stripped off > the cars one weekend. A few battery-operated > sawz-alls is my guess.... > > > > At 10/16/2008 at 14:57, Shakespearean monkeys danced > on Doug Braun's > keyboard and said: > >Hello, > > > >What's is the best way to get rid of a junk (10 > year > >old, 130k miles, rusted out flange) catalytic > >converter that I have? Is there a cost-effective > way > >to get money for it? Or should I just "donate" it > to > >the local muffler shop? > > > Cheers! > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Oct 21 09:03:22 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:03:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <212341.59566.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20081021014507.03c32738@yahoo.com> <212341.59566.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Doug wrote: > > BTW, the recycling places wil pay onthe average about > $60 for an OEM cat, Dang. When I had to replace the cat on my son's car, I just assumed it was trash and sent it to the dump (hazardous disposal area actually). I had no idea it was worth anything. :-( Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 09:05:32 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:05:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20081021014507.03c32738@yahoo.com> <212341.59566.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40810210805xa1864c7x1efed97bbb56d8be@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Mullen, Tim wrote: > Doug wrote: >> >> BTW, the recycling places wil pay onthe average about >> $60 for an OEM cat, > > Dang. When I had to replace the cat on my son's car, I just assumed it > was trash and sent it to the dump (hazardous disposal area actually). I > had no idea it was worth anything. :-( A cat thief was shot and killed here not to long ago. (He was trying to run over the cop who caught him.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Oct 21 09:09:57 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:09:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40810210805xa1864c7x1efed97bbb56d8be@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20081021014507.03c32738@yahoo.com> <212341.59566.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <2400a5d40810210805xa1864c7x1efed97bbb56d8be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE85C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> David wrote: > > A cat thief ... Sorry... The first thing that popped into my mind was "I've heard of a Cat Burglar, but never a Cat Thief... :-) Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Oct 21 09:47:41 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <353272.74565.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The cats have platimum in them, which is pretty non-hazardous! Doug --- "Mullen, Tim" wrote: > Dang. When I had to replace the cat on my son's > car, I just assumed it > was trash and sent it to the dump (hazardous > disposal area actually). I > had no idea it was worth anything. :-( From carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 09:50:09 2008 From: carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com (Carl Lindahl) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:50:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <353272.74565.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <353272.74565.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Some places (where I live) think exhaust tubing is hazardous material. Can't be too worse than an old steel railing covered with lead paint! On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > The cats have platimum in them, which is pretty > non-hazardous! > > Doug > > > --- "Mullen, Tim" wrote: > > > Dang. When I had to replace the cat on my son's > > car, I just assumed it > > was trash and sent it to the dump (hazardous > > disposal area actually). I > > had no idea it was worth anything. :-( > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 21 10:38:31 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:38:31 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <353272.74565.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <353272.74565.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <152252EB68564087A28068D0D310FD6B@jdnet.deere.com> > The cats have platimum in them, which is pretty > non-hazardous! True, but they can also have other things that are more hazardous. Some contain rhodium, for example, which is both highly toxic and carcinogenic. Lead contamination is a very real possibility, too. Randall From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Oct 21 11:06:20 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:06:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Junk catalytic converter: what to do? In-Reply-To: <353272.74565.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE852@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <353272.74565.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797020AE938@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Doug Braun wrote: > > The cats have platimum in them, which is pretty > non-hazardous! Well to be more precise, I didn't toss the old cat on the scrap metal pile, I put it on the long counter where the hazardous stuff (like brake fluid, Freon, solvents, etc.) go. I let the guys at the recycle/dump figure out if it was hazardous or not. Speaking of which... Once when I was dropping off some old brake fluid, there were five old cans of Freon-12 that someone had tossed as "hazardous". I asked about them, and the guy responded with "I didn't see you take those cans. ;-)". So I walked away from the dump with five cans of Freon... :-) Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 21 21:52:30 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:52:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection Message-ID: I've been running the manufacturer-recommended 5W-30 in my 2 modern cars, both current-generation American V-8's, each purchased used with 25,000 and 36,000 miles on them, and I've used synthetic since we bought them. I've always been leery of such thin oil, despite the manufacturers' assurances that the engines are designed for it. Stands to reason that they want their CAFI numbers as high as possible, and thin oil probably gives them a little extra mileage in the fleet. Recently I read a lengthy article about automotive oil (senior moment - darn if I know where saw it), and the crux of the story was that 5W-30 is indeed really too thin, particularly in the summer, and running at least 10W-40 is far better for the engine. Maybe 5W-30 in the dead of winter (I'm in the Chicago area), but not in the summer. The author also said (and I tend to believe this even though I'm still using synthetic for now) that synthetic is really a waste on most cars in typical use, because the additive packages in regular oils are so good today, and changing at 3,000 miles (which I do with the synthetic anyway) gives so much protection that synthetic just can't do any better. This list has some mechanics working on current-type cars - what do you say about these issues ?? TIA Karl A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. Author unknown From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 21 22:31:59 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:31:59 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081022043159.SCPQ649.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Can't really prove it, but it's my belief that Valvoline full synthetic (which is what I use in all my cars regardless of age) does have a higher film strength than 'dinosaur juice'; which makes it better at avoiding metal-to-metal contact. So it's not a question of additives at all. Which may be nonsense, but I've had good luck running the full synthetic for 10-15K miles between changes (changing the filter every time of course). Current hauler (which turned into a daily driver somehow) has somewhere north of 200,000 miles on the clock. It's a bit overdue for it's second tune-up (which shows as a tiny bit of roughness at idle) but otherwise looks good for another 100K at least. Then I might change that pesky front seal I also stick with the manufacturer's recommendation for viscosity, except the TRs get 20W50 instead of straight 40. BTW, I've read a lot about synthetics leaking more than conventional; but have never seen that with Valvoline. In one case, oil consumption actually went down markedly when I switched. However, I recently tried using Mobil 1 and found that oil leakage did go up substantially with it. I'm sticking with Valvoline from now on ! Randall From cavanadd at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 23:44:24 2008 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:44:24 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FEBDB8.1050901@verizon.net> I'm not a mechanic, and don't play one on TV or anywhere else. However, I feel your same discomfort for 5W oils. When I got my new 2003 GMC 1/2 ton truck, the owners manual recommended 5W30 oil but said 10W30 was OK if you couldn't find or didn't want to run 5W. Nearly 40 years of driving various cars and motorcycles makes me inherently distrustful of such light oil in an I/C engine, and I have run what ever 10W30 is on sale (by the case) in my truck and my wife's Subaru, changed every 3K miles, and using a good NAPA filter. I think, as you do, that the 5W oil is recommended strictly from a gas mileage standpoint. I also don't really care for 10W40 weight oils; I have read enough to have reached the conclusion that the 40 weight oils have a much higher polymer to petroleum ratio and break down faster. YMMV, and if you like to run them, go right ahead. Before everyone was so concerned with high fuel mileage, I ran 15w40 "all fleet' diesel rated oils (Delo 400, Rotella, etc) in everything I owned, from tractors to motorcycles to cars and trucks. I no longer run it in my car or truck, but I continue to use it in everything else. Now that our Subaru Forester has 100K miles on it I may start running 15w40 in it, too. Has anyone got any experience running 15w40 in a late model GM Vortec engine? I'd be interested in hearing what everyone else thinks. Nothing like a good oil thread. Dave C Karl Vacek wrote: > I've been running the manufacturer-recommended 5W-30 in my 2 modern cars, both > current-generation American V-8's, each purchased used with 25,000 and 36,000 > miles on them, and I've used synthetic since we bought them. > > I've always been leery of such thin oil, despite the manufacturers' assurances > that the engines are designed for it. Stands to reason that they want their > CAFI numbers as high as possible, and thin oil probably gives them a little > extra mileage in the fleet. > > Recently I read a lengthy article about automotive oil (senior moment - darn > if I know where saw it), and the crux of the story was that 5W-30 is indeed > really too thin, particularly in the summer, and running at least 10W-40 is > far better for the engine. Maybe 5W-30 in the dead of winter (I'm in the > Chicago area), but not in the summer. > > The author also said (and I tend to believe this even though I'm still using > synthetic for now) that synthetic is really a waste on most cars in typical > use, because the additive packages in regular oils are so good today, and > changing at 3,000 miles (which I do with the synthetic anyway) gives so much > protection that synthetic just can't do any better. > > This list has some mechanics working on current-type cars - what do you say > about these issues ?? > > TIA > Karl > > > > A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters > discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public > treasury. > > Author unknown > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 22 00:42:03 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:42:03 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <48FEBDB8.1050901@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20081022064203.HCZF18245.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> > When I got my new 2003 GMC 1/2 ton truck, the owners manual > recommended 5W30 oil but said 10W30 was OK if you couldn't > find or didn't want to run 5W. Nearly 40 years of driving > various cars and motorcycles makes me inherently distrustful > of such light oil in an I/C engine, and I have run what ever > 10W30 is on sale (by the case) in my truck and my wife's > Subaru, changed every 3K miles, and using a good NAPA filter. > I think, as you do, that the 5W oil is recommended strictly > from a gas mileage standpoint. What I find ironic about this is that 5W30 is never thinner (less viscous) than 10W30 is at normal operating temperature. It's the second number that specifies the oil's viscosity at 100C, which is pretty close to what the temperature should be in the bearings when the engine is warmed up; unless it's really cold outside. And even "multi-weight" oils get thicker as they get colder, they just don't do it as fast as single-weight oils. Randall From mark at bradakis.com Wed Oct 22 01:03:41 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 01:03:41 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Bending stuff Message-ID: <48FED04D.10209@bradakis.com> One of the projects at work today was installing a new fuel cell in a Lotus Elite. Neat car. One of the securing straps involved making several bends in a 3 foot length of 1/8 thick steel, 3 inches wide. It involved clamping in vices that couldn't handle the full width, lots of whacking with a big hammer, breaking a sweat and occasional use of improper language. We're not about to spend many tens of thousands of dollars on a fancy, full featured press brake or some such. Are there other alternatives? Some set of forming dies you can use with a typical shop press to make bends of various angles? My arm hurts from swinging that, uh, darn hammer! mjb. From strovato at optonline.net Wed Oct 22 04:55:43 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:55:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0K9400KTKZP8TI31@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Not a professional mechanic, but my feeling is synthetics are probably not needed when everything is going right. But some time over the car's lifetime, something is probably going to go wrong. Maybe it will overheat. Maybe someone will run it a little low on oil. Maybe life's emergencies will cause the oil change to be put off for a while. When those things happen, I'd rather have the synthetic in there. Unfortunately, I can't predict which day that will be, so I consider the synthetic to be insurance. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 11:52 PM 10/21/2008, Karl Vacek wrote: >The author also said (and I tend to believe this even though I'm still using >synthetic for now) that synthetic is really a waste on most cars in typical >use, because the additive packages in regular oils are so good today, and >changing at 3,000 miles (which I do with the synthetic anyway) gives so much >protection that synthetic just can't do any better. From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Oct 22 06:51:44 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 05:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Bending stuff In-Reply-To: <48FED04D.10209@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <670400.38869.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, I have seen a bending thingie that you can put in a shop press. It has a bottom block with a V-groove, somewhere between 6 and 12 inches long, and a matching wedge-shaped part that the ram presses on. Look in the Grizzly, HF, northern tool, etc. web sites. Doug --- Mark J Bradakis wrote: > We're not about to spend many tens of thousands of > dollars on > a fancy, full featured press brake or some such. > Are there other > alternatives? Some set of forming dies you can use > with a > typical shop press to make bends of various angles? From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Oct 22 07:14:51 2008 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:14:51 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> I'm only a shadetree mechanic, but I've given this subject quite a bit of thought and research. Synthetics, arguably, are more durable than mineral oil as far as breakdown from shear forces. However, they will accumulate contaminants from blowby and water (acids, etc.) similar to mineral oil. Therefore, frequent oil changes are best with either oil (and, remember, there's a time recommendation as well, usually every 3 months regardless of mileage, though I've never been religious about following that). Ironically, the shorter molecules of mineral oil may be better at scavenging contaminants than synthetic. I did decide if I had to do a lot of highway driving--for a job, for instance--say, 2,000-3,000 miles a month, I would use synthetic oil and extend the oil change to 6,000 miles or more. You get fewer contaminants--and vaporize the water in the oil--if you take mostly long trips (and having to change the oil every month would get old, and expensive). I know a guy who commutes from Madera, CA to the Bay Area every day in a Honda Civic (about 200 miles total), which is still running strong with Mobil 1 at nearly 300,000 miles and oil changes every 12,000 miles. Ford recommends their 5W-20 semi-synthetic for my new Mustang--you think 30W is thin!--and oil changes every 7,500 hundred miles regardless of usage. I gave it a lot of thought and, since I drive mostly city miles, decided to go to a 5,000 mile interval. And, I stuck with the 5W-20--against my instincts, at first--when I found I can get it for $2/qt at WalMart. Yes, the manufacturers need better CAFE numbers, but new engines are built with such tight clearances a quality thinner oil will be fine. I believe Ford's engineers know what they're doing--even if their accountants don't ;) Bob Karl Vacek wrote: > I've been running the manufacturer-recommended 5W-30 in my 2 modern cars, both > current-generation American V-8's, each purchased used with 25,000 and 36,000 > miles on them, and I've used synthetic since we bought them. > > I've always been leery of such thin oil, despite the manufacturers' assurances > that the engines are designed for it. Stands to reason that they want their > CAFI numbers as high as possible, and thin oil probably gives them a little > extra mileage in the fleet. > > Recently I read a lengthy article about automotive oil (senior moment - darn > if I know where saw it), and the crux of the story was that 5W-30 is indeed > really too thin, particularly in the summer, and running at least 10W-40 is > far better for the engine. Maybe 5W-30 in the dead of winter (I'm in the > Chicago area), but not in the summer. > > The author also said (and I tend to believe this even though I'm still using > synthetic for now) that synthetic is really a waste on most cars in typical > use, because the additive packages in regular oils are so good today, and > changing at 3,000 miles (which I do with the synthetic anyway) gives so much > protection that synthetic just can't do any better. > > This list has some mechanics working on current-type cars - what do you say > about these issues ?? > > TIA > Karl > > > -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From pethier at comcast.net Wed Oct 22 07:53:49 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:53:49 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection Message-ID: <102220081353.20390.48FF306D0005D42700004FA622155558849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> > there's a > time recommendation as well, usually every 3 months regardless of > mileage, I have yet to see a convincing argument of why this is needed. The contaminants from combustion seem to be the most important thing to me. From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Oct 22 08:08:03 2008 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:08:03 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <102220081353.20390.48FF306D0005D42700004FA622155558849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> References: <102220081353.20390.48FF306D0005D42700004FA622155558849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48FF33C3.8080005@comcast.net> Correct. The argument, I believe, is that if you're only making short trips--say, a couple miles back and forth to work every day--you're not getting the oil hot enough for long enough to boil off water and other combustion byproducts that contaminate the oil (20 minutes at highway speed is usually cited). If so, you should change at a regular time interval--regardless of miles--to flush the contaminants. Arguably, you could have a "flexible" schedule; i.e. change at four months or 2,000 miles or similar depending on your driving habits but "3 months or 3,000 miles, whichever comes first" is an easy rule of thumb that works in most circumstances. Bob pethier at comcast.net wrote: there's a time recommendation as well, usually every 3 months regardless of mileage, I have yet to see a convincing argument of why this is needed. The contaminant s from combustion seem to be the most important thing to me. -- ******************************************************************* Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net ******************************************************************* From cak at dimebank.com Wed Oct 22 08:15:04 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Bending stuff Message-ID: <200810221415.m9MEF4Z6002980@moose.dimebank.com> There are a number of "universal bender" machines out there that are basically a post, clamp and lever, intended for ornamental iron work and strap making. But they won't handle 3" work. A torch would have made your job a lot easier! From battmain at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 08:38:58 2008 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection Message-ID: <333107.77589.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The car in my fleet with the most mileage has 263k miles. I used 10w30 due to the average temps in my area. It has dino oil that I changed every 5k miles. As the leaks grew larger, I would have to carry a quart with me. Occasionally the oil light would flash depending on how hard I drove the car. I'd top it up and keep going. It is sitting now waiting until I get to fixing the clutch. All that practice shifting gears without the clutch worked great to get the car home. The turbo gets synthetic every 5k miles. The truck (gas) gets dino every 5k miles. So far, all has been good. Both the turbo and the truck recommended 5w30. I chose 10w30 due to the temps in my area. The race car also gets 10w30 sythetic. (Hey, it's free!) I've never subscribed to the 3000mile, 3month theory because I don't drive in rush hour traffic. Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Karl Vacek To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 11:52:30 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection I've been running the manufacturer-recommended 5W-30 in my 2 modern cars, both current-generation American V-8's, each purchased used with 25,000 and 36,000 miles on them, and I've used synthetic since we bought them. (snip) From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Oct 22 09:02:48 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Bending stuff In-Reply-To: <48FED04D.10209@bradakis.com> References: <48FED04D.10209@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <48FF4098.8070502@xxiii.com> Mark J Bradakis wrote: > One of the projects at work today was installing a new fuel cell > in a Lotus Elite. Neat car. One of the securing straps involved > making several bends in a 3 foot length of 1/8 thick steel, 3 inches > wide. It involved clamping in vices that couldn't handle the full That sounds like a helluva lotta mass to be adding to the likes of a Lotus! 50lbs or so? How about investing in materials instead of tooling? Carbon fiber or kevlar straps? Or even that steel banding tape they use for shipping? Or is there a rule book we have to follow here? -Wayne From mark at sccaprepared.com Wed Oct 22 09:11:26 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Bending stuff In-Reply-To: <670400.38869.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <670400.38869.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howdy, Here's one: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_21896_21896 There are others out there... I looked into this one time and never found one cheap enough for me, but I wasn't being paid to make stuff either. Mark On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Doug Braun wrote: > Yes, I have seen a bending thingie that you can put in > a shop press. It has a bottom block with a V-groove, > somewhere between 6 and 12 inches long, and a matching > wedge-shaped part that the ram presses on. > > Look in the Grizzly, HF, northern tool, etc. web > sites. > > Doug > > > --- Mark J Bradakis wrote: > >> We're not about to spend many tens of thousands of >> dollars on >> a fancy, full featured press brake or some such. >> Are there other >> alternatives? Some set of forming dies you can use >> with a >> typical shop press to make bends of various angles? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From mark at sccaprepared.com Wed Oct 22 09:29:04 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Bob Spidell wrote: > Ford recommends their 5W-20 semi-synthetic for my new Mustang--you think > 30W is thin!--and oil changes every 7,500 hundred miles regardless of > usage. I gave it a lot of thought and, since I drive mostly city miles, > decided to go to a 5,000 mile interval. And, I stuck with the > 5W-20--against my instincts, at first--when I found I can get it for > $2/qt at WalMart. Yes, the manufacturers need better CAFE numbers, but > new engines are built with such tight clearances a quality thinner oil > will be fine. I believe Ford's engineers know what they're doing--even > if their accountants don't ;) Everyone should make their own decision on this stuff, but you can get oil analysis done (what's the plural of analysis?) to tell you the condition of your oil. You can use that to determine if its ok to extend your change intervale. One place is blackstone: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ I've been happy with their service and the price is pretty reasonable to me. I routinely run >5k miles on conventional oil in our Chevy Venture and Toyota MR2 and >8k on synthetic in our Honda Civic. Oil analysis in each case at the end of a run made me feel fine with that. Mark From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Oct 22 09:47:51 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:47:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] bending stuff Message-ID: I LOVE bending stuff !!! here's an article on one I built... with some machinist's help... we've since added a "tight 90" adapter that is essentially a piece of 1" bar stock on edge with 1/8" plate welded on each side so it will fit over the push bar and a v-notch base that fits down in the base for bending light gauge stock. Ive got some more pics somewhere C:\Users\Owner\TRUCKSTUFF\tools and shop\press bender\presstypemetalbenderplans With a 20 Ton jack this will bend 3/8" x 3" material to 900 with no strain. Its patterned after shop fitters 'handy bender" They since gone hydraulic but offer a 'press' you can put in your shop press for light gauge stuff.. http://www.shopoutfitters.com/Universal_Fabricator_files/UF/handybend.html mine was built before Northern and others offered their versions... their miniature press is about 700 bucks.... Northern Tools is cheaper... but still over 200 I think john A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Oct 22 09:50:09 2008 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:50:09 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection Message-ID: <102220081550.13839.48FF4BB10000595F0000360F220700164104040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net> analyses bs -- *************************************************************** Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net '67 Austin-Healey 3000 '56 Austin-Healey 100M *************************************************************** -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Mark Andy > Howdy, > > On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Bob Spidell wrote: > > Ford recommends their 5W-20 semi-synthetic for my new Mustang--you think > > 30W is thin!--and oil changes every 7,500 hundred miles regardless of > > usage. I gave it a lot of thought and, since I drive mostly city miles, > > decided to go to a 5,000 mile interval. And, I stuck with the > > 5W-20--against my instincts, at first--when I found I can get it for > > $2/qt at WalMart. Yes, the manufacturers need better CAFE numbers, but > > new engines are built with such tight clearances a quality thinner oil > > will be fine. I believe Ford's engineers know what they're doing--even > > if their accountants don't ;) > > Everyone should make their own decision on this stuff, but you can get oil > analysis done (what's the plural of analysis?) to tell you the condition > of your oil. You can use that to determine if its ok to extend your > change intervale. > > One place is blackstone: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ > > I've been happy with their service and the price is pretty reasonable to > me. > > I routinely run >5k miles on conventional oil in our Chevy Venture and > Toyota MR2 and >8k on synthetic in our Honda Civic. Oil analysis in each > case at the end of a run made me feel fine with that. > > Mark From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 22 09:55:37 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:55:37 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] bending stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A1C7C7E26854BE6BEDA91C088E22BEC@jdnet.deere.com> > here's an article on one I built... > C:\Users\Owner\TRUCKSTUFF\tools and shop\press > bender\presstypemetalbenderplans John, I'd like to see your plans, but for some reason I can't access your hard drive. Any chance they are on the Internet somewhere ? Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 22 09:59:12 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:59:12 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> Message-ID: <08B194BF1C564FA1854AEB53E75849E7@jdnet.deere.com> > (what's the plural of analysis?) Analyses. http://mw1.m-w.com/dictionary/analyses From arvidj at visi.com Wed Oct 22 10:00:31 2008 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:00:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] bending stuff References: Message-ID: I'd love to see the plans but am having trouble accessing you C: drive. ;-} ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:47 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] bending stuff >I LOVE bending stuff !!! > > here's an article on one I built... with some machinist's help... we've > since > added a "tight 90" adapter that is essentially a piece of 1" bar stock on > edge > with 1/8" plate welded on each side so it will fit over the push bar and a > v-notch base that fits down in the base for bending light gauge stock. > Ive > got some more pics somewhere > > C:\Users\Owner\TRUCKSTUFF\tools and shop\press > bender\presstypemetalbenderplans From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Oct 22 10:11:40 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:11:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] bending stuff Message-ID: I really should proof my posts before hitting send..... sorry j http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/pressbrake/presstypemetalbenderplans.htm l A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Oct 22 10:14:45 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:14:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] bending stuff In-Reply-To: <1A1C7C7E26854BE6BEDA91C088E22BEC@jdnet.deere.com> References: <1A1C7C7E26854BE6BEDA91C088E22BEC@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <48FF5175.8080801@xxiii.com> Randall wrote: >> here's an article on one I built... > >> C:\Users\Owner\TRUCKSTUFF\tools and shop\press > > John, I'd like to see your plans, but for some reason I can't access your > hard drive. Any chance they are on the Internet somewhere ? Actually, you might be able to. John! You've got some odd stuff open on your network. I didn't press too hard, though. Who is "Colburn Construction"? You might wanna talk to your sysadmin... -Wayne From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 10:57:53 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:57:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d40810220957r453e6b8g2902a7c45255dd85@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 11:52 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > I've been running the manufacturer-recommended 5W-30 in my 2 modern cars, both > current-generation American V-8's, each purchased used with 25,000 and 36,000 > miles on them, and I've used synthetic since we bought them. > > I've always been leery of such thin oil, despite the manufacturers' assurances > that the engines are designed for it. Stands to reason that they want their > CAFI numbers as high as possible, and thin oil probably gives them a little > extra mileage in the fleet. > My buddy the tribologist (he's got a PhD in lubrication, and designs oiling systems for jet engines) says use what the manufacturer says. Many modern engines have insanely close clearances (some are so tight that the max wear limits are less than the assembly tolerances of twenty or thirty years ago!). If the engineers say they want 5W oil, there's a reason. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From clmautz at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 11:02:38 2008 From: clmautz at gmail.com (Chip Mautz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:02:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> I'm a renegade, I guess - or maybe a maverick? :-) I don't subscribe to the change early and often mantra, I go usually 10-15k/oil change in my vehicles. I've done this with: a 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (supercharged), no problems a 2007 Jeep Wrangler - 30k miles so far, no problems a 1999 BMW 323i - 142k miles, no problems a 1988 BMW 528e - 250k miles, no problems a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 a 1996 Land Rover Discovery and many other vehicles I've owned. Some dino, some synthetic (old mobil 1 formula). On another note - be aware, there is a new mobil 1 formula, which may not protect like the mobil 1 of old. Saw that on the net - maybe from some SCCA racers. Chip On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Bob Spidell wrote: > >> Ford recommends their 5W-20 semi-synthetic for my new Mustang--you think >> 30W is thin!--and oil changes every 7,500 hundred miles regardless of usage. >> I gave it a lot of thought and, since I drive mostly city miles, decided to >> go to a 5,000 mile interval. And, I stuck with the 5W-20--against my >> instincts, at first--when I found I can get it for $2/qt at WalMart. Yes, >> the manufacturers need better CAFE numbers, but new engines are built with >> such tight clearances a quality thinner oil will be fine. I believe Ford's >> engineers know what they're doing--even if their accountants don't ;) >> > > Everyone should make their own decision on this stuff, but you can get oil > analysis done (what's the plural of analysis?) to tell you the condition of > your oil. You can use that to determine if its ok to extend your change > intervale. > > One place is blackstone: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ > > I've been happy with their service and the price is pretty reasonable to > me. > > I routinely run >5k miles on conventional oil in our Chevy Venture and > Toyota MR2 and >8k on synthetic in our Honda Civic. Oil analysis in each > case at the end of a run made me feel fine with that. > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as clmautz at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Oct 22 11:23:04 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:23:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970212B291@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Chip Mautz wrote: > > On another note - be aware, there is a new mobil 1 formula, which > may not protect like the mobil 1 of old. I don't know of anything specific to Mobil 1, but the new API "SM" rated oils (the current standard) have a reduced amount of one of the anti-wear additives compared to the previous API "SL" standard. Apparently there is concern that when the engine wears and start to burn oil, the additive will cause damage to the catalytic converter. The additive is one intended to protect against high sliding forces, and the thinking is that since more (most?) modern engines tend to have roller in the cam followers/lifters then need for the "Sliding ware additive" is less. One way to get the old additive package is to get oil intended for diesels (such as Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel oil or others) which still tend to rated as "SL" instead of "SM" oils. Regular Mobil 1 oils (and probably most other brands) have been "upgraded" to the new "SM" standard. Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 11:23:19 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:23:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We have a couple of VW TDIs and they call for 10,000 mile oil changes. On the older of the two I've done 10k mile changes with synthetic Rotella oil and it has 243,000+ miles on it and still burn oil. I got 51.2 mpg on the last tank in that car too. I use the same oil in my Elise but do the changes every 7500 miles or once a year (whichever comes first). I'm a firm believer in reading the manual and seeing what the guys that built it say I should use. -Paul On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Chip Mautz wrote: > I'm a renegade, I guess - or maybe a maverick? :-) > I don't subscribe to the change early and often mantra, I go usually > 10-15k/oil change in my vehicles. > > I've done this with: > > a 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (supercharged), no problems > a 2007 Jeep Wrangler - 30k miles so far, no problems > a 1999 BMW 323i - 142k miles, no problems > a 1988 BMW 528e - 250k miles, no problems > a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 > a 1996 Land Rover Discovery > > and many other vehicles I've owned. Some dino, some synthetic (old mobil 1 > formula). > > On another note - be aware, there is a new mobil 1 formula, which may not > protect like the mobil 1 of old. Saw that on the net - maybe from some SCCA > racers. > > Chip > > > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > >> Howdy, >> >> On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Bob Spidell wrote: >> >>> Ford recommends their 5W-20 semi-synthetic for my new Mustang--you think >>> 30W is thin!--and oil changes every 7,500 hundred miles regardless of usage. >>> I gave it a lot of thought and, since I drive mostly city miles, decided to >>> go to a 5,000 mile interval. And, I stuck with the 5W-20--against my >>> instincts, at first--when I found I can get it for $2/qt at WalMart. Yes, >>> the manufacturers need better CAFE numbers, but new engines are built with >>> such tight clearances a quality thinner oil will be fine. I believe Ford's >>> engineers know what they're doing--even if their accountants don't ;) >>> >> >> Everyone should make their own decision on this stuff, but you can get oil >> analysis done (what's the plural of analysis?) to tell you the condition of >> your oil. You can use that to determine if its ok to extend your change >> intervale. >> >> One place is blackstone: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ >> >> I've been happy with their service and the price is pretty reasonable to >> me. >> >> I routinely run >5k miles on conventional oil in our Chevy Venture and >> Toyota MR2 and >8k on synthetic in our Honda Civic. Oil analysis in each >> case at the end of a run made me feel fine with that. >> >> Mark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as clmautz at gmail.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Oct 22 12:21:01 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40810220957r453e6b8g2902a7c45255dd85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491801.5018.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Last spring I had to replace the head gaskets on my '98 Subaru, and I had a chance to inspect the cylinder walls. Even after 125k miles, I could still see the original honing marks all around the cylinder walls, even in the regions where the greatest wear occurs. Also, when I checked the valve clearances, none of the intake valves needed any adjustment. You'd never see these things in an older engine! Doug --- David Scheidt wrote: > My buddy the tribologist (he's got a PhD in > lubrication, and designs > oiling systems for jet engines) says use what the > manufacturer says. > Many modern engines have insanely close clearances > (some are so tight > that the max wear limits are less than the assembly > tolerances of > twenty or thirty years ago!). If the engineers say > they want 5W oil, > there's a reason. From strovato at optonline.net Wed Oct 22 12:39:32 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:39:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.co m> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> So, you're not sure if you're a jeep or an old ford? :-) Seriously, though, I think you're pushing your luck a bit. 3000miles/ 3 years is conservative and perhaps unnecessary. But 15K? I know you say all your cars are running great, but that still doesn't make it a good idea. As for the reformulation, the latest crop of motor oils have removed or greatly reduced a component called ZDDP. There has been much talk in classic car circles about this, and the possible negative effect on "flat tappet" engines. If you have such a car, I suggest you look at one the many articles on the subject. Here are a couple of examples: http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html Google on "ZDDP" and you'll find plenty more. If you do not have such a car, then don't worry about it. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 01:02 PM 10/22/2008, Chip Mautz wrote: >I'm a renegade, I guess - or maybe a maverick? :-) >I don't subscribe to the change early and often mantra, I go usually >10-15k/oil change in my vehicles. From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Oct 22 13:36:05 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <877708.61774.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The ZDPP articles I have read have said that modern engines are not affected because they have roller tappets instead of flat tappets. But obviously not all (or even most) modern engines have roller tappets. Does anyone know what the articles really meant? Doug --- Steven Trovato wrote: As for the reformulation, the latest > crop of motor oils > have removed or greatly reduced a component called > ZDDP. There has > been much talk in classic car circles about this, > and the possible > negative effect on "flat tappet" engines. If you > have such a car, I > suggest you look at one the many articles on the > subject. From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Oct 22 14:13:29 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:13:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing Message-ID: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC> divorced friend... 1/2" pvc water pipe to faucet in yard... got a leak don't know about plumbing and glue and such... is there a 'fix' for a leak in this pipe... from what she says it's a crack and not a full break... I don't think a Fernco sleeve will handle -/+ 100 psi city water pressure... any other solutions short of finding someone to do it... and I don't need to be over at some dee-vorced womans house fixing her plumbing if you understand my meaning.. john A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Oct 22 14:38:51 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing In-Reply-To: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2025095493.906431224707931686.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> we had this exact problem at the rental house. solution is to cut out the bad section and replace it with a length of new pipe. or at least that's what I had to do. can't help you with the interpersonal aspects of it. good luck. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:13:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing divorced friend... 1/2" pvc water pipe to faucet in yard... got a leak don't know about plumbing and glue and such... is there a 'fix' for a leak in this pipe... from what she says it's a crack and not a full break... I don't think a Fernco sleeve will handle -/+ 100 psi city water pressure... any other solutions short of finding someone to do it... and I don't need to be over at some dee-vorced womans house fixing her plumbing if you understand my meaning.. john A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as scott.hall at comcast.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From strovato at optonline.net Wed Oct 22 14:45:11 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:45:11 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <877708.61774.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <877708.61774.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0K9500G5QQZCXSD0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> That's what I thought too. I asked about this back in May over on the HAMB board. This is what I was told: "...the Big Three have used roller cams in their V8s since the mid to late '80s, at least the designs that actually use tappets/lifters. A sliding tappet...there are a couple of definitions of this, but the common one would be an OHC-style engine, generally where the "tappet" as such is the actual end of the rocker arm...no separate pushrod or lifter. A more common term is "follower". . . . At any rate, since OEM followers/sliding tappets do not need cam lobe taper, the point of contact is larger and has much less loading in terms of PSI as compared to conventional flat tappet designs." Here's the whole thread if you are interested: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263632 -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 03:36 PM 10/22/2008, Doug Braun wrote: >The ZDPP articles I have read have said that modern >engines are not affected because they have roller >tappets instead of flat tappets. But obviously not >all (or even most) modern engines have roller tappets. > >Does anyone know what the articles really meant? > >Doug From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 22 14:58:05 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:58:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net><5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: > There has > been much talk in classic car circles about this, Indeed there has been a LOT of talk, but precious little hard evidence. Just once, it would be nice for someone to assemble two identical engines and demonstrate the difference of running a low-ZDDP oil in one, and high-ZDDP in the other. The entire ZDDP debate seems to be based mostly on increased camshaft failures; but the increase in camshaft failures started BEFORE the reduction in ZDDP! BTW, ZDDP comes into play when there is metal-to-metal contact, ie the oil film breaks down. If full synthetics do have higher film strength, they should be better able to maintain the microscopic oil film and hence have less need of ZDDP. Randall From nick at landform.co.uk Wed Oct 22 14:59:43 2008 From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:59:43 +0100 Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing In-Reply-To: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC> References: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <48FF943F.40708@landform.co.uk> john niolon wrote: > divorced friend... 1/2" pvc water pipe to faucet in yard... got a leak > don't know about plumbing and glue and such... > > is there a 'fix' for a leak in this pipe... from what she says it's a crack > and not a full break... > I don't think a Fernco sleeve will handle -/+ 100 psi city water pressure... > any other solutions short of finding someone to do it... and I don't need to > be over at some dee-vorced womans house fixing her plumbing if you understand > my meaning.. > > John The Snapper made by these people http://www.interlock-cpt.com/ looks suitable. Never had any dealings with the firm but seen similar products at irrigation trade shows. Cleanliness and prep are all in solvent pvc jointing. Nice plans for the press btw. Nick Brearley From strovato at optonline.net Wed Oct 22 15:18:08 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:18:08 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing In-Reply-To: <48FF943F.40708@landform.co.uk> References: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC> <48FF943F.40708@landform.co.uk> Message-ID: <0K95007K3SIA0EB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Well, I don't get it. That doesn't look any easier than just cutting out the section and replacing it. That's what I would do. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net >The Snapper made by these people http://www.interlock-cpt.com/ >looks suitable. Never had any dealings with the firm but seen similar >products at irrigation trade shows. Cleanliness and prep are all in >solvent pvc jointing. From strovato at optonline.net Wed Oct 22 15:26:49 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:26:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing In-Reply-To: <0K95007K3SIA0EB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC> <48FF943F.40708@landform.co.uk> <0K95007K3SIA0EB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0K95006Z6SWTIOD0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> OK, well, maybe I'm STARTING to get it. With that thing, you ARE cutting out and replacing a section of pipe. What it seems to buy you is a "telescoping" feature, which should make it easier to get the repair piece in. I have always managed just fine without this. At 05:18 PM 10/22/2008, Steven Trovato wrote: >Well, I don't get it. That doesn't look any easier than just >cutting out the section and replacing it. That's what I would do. > >-Steve Trovato >strovato at optonline.net > > > >>The Snapper made by these people http://www.interlock-cpt.com/ >>looks suitable. Never had any dealings with the firm but seen similar >>products at irrigation trade shows. Cleanliness and prep are all in >>solvent pvc jointing. >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive From mikey at b2systems.com Wed Oct 22 15:31:10 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:31:10 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net><5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <48FF9B9E.1010509@b2systems.com> The Ferrari Dino has always had camshaft issues, most early Ferrari's did and that is when ZDDP was in the oil so I am not convinced that it is the solution. I still add ZDDP in my Dino just to be "sure" and consider it insurance, I will also put it in the Spridget motor again as very cheap insurance. mike Randall wrote: >> There has >> been much talk in classic car circles about this, >> > > Indeed there has been a LOT of talk, but precious little hard evidence. > Just once, it would be nice for someone to assemble two identical engines > and demonstrate the difference of running a low-ZDDP oil in one, and > high-ZDDP in the other. The entire ZDDP debate seems to be based mostly on > increased camshaft failures; but the increase in camshaft failures started > BEFORE the reduction in ZDDP! > > BTW, ZDDP comes into play when there is metal-to-metal contact, ie the oil > film breaks down. If full synthetics do have higher film strength, they > should be better able to maintain the microscopic oil film and hence have > less need of ZDDP. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as mikey at b2systems.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Oct 22 15:42:29 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:42:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing References: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC><48FF943F.40708@landform.co.uk><0K95007K3SIA0EB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <0K95006Z6SWTIOD0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: But cutting out a section and gluing in a new piece is simple - just use non-stopped couplings. They slide completely over the pipe and get out of the way. That gives you telescoping and doesn't require exotic proprietary parts - just cheap old PVC. Put the couplings onto the pipe (primed but dry of glue), drop the pipe in place, slobber lots of glue on it, and slide the couplings into place. Maybe push each coupling a little too far and add some more glue at the railing edge too, then slide it back to the center of the joint. Just remember to mark the positions for the couplings to get them centered over the joint. Works even easier with copper, since there's no glue to worry about and you can play with it all day till you're ready to solder it. Karl > OK, well, maybe I'm STARTING to get it. With that thing, you ARE cutting > out and replacing a section of pipe. What it seems to buy you is a > "telescoping" feature, which should make it easier to get the repair piece > in. I have always managed just fine without this. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 22 16:11:18 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:11:18 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] I'm tired of oil talk... lets talk plumbing In-Reply-To: <0K95007K3SIA0EB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <1CE68ADE54B64DAFA0EF82BBC02031E9@OwnerPC><48FF943F.40708@landform.co.uk> <0K95007K3SIA0EB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <464B5AE3FED2459DB5691E12918F6617@jdnet.deere.com> > Well, I don't get it. That doesn't look any easier than just cutting > out the section and replacing it. Are you looking at "Pipe Fix" or "Snapper"? Depends on circumstances of course, but down in a hole, "Snapper" looks at least somewhat easier to me. No cutting required, just clean the existing pipe, smear some glue and snap the repair pieces into place over the break. Randall From opposumking at verizon.net Wed Oct 22 16:14:41 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:14:41 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net><5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <207B392A10AA4ADCB61581B388690EA3@CPQ12949640186> There's a clue if you read the urban legend. It's where in claim about the big three using roller lifters in all their engines. For the big three do NOT use roller lifters. Never have, and probably never will. So where would that claim about roller lifters come from. Ah! There's a lead to the truth. It's from high performance circle track racing engines, using radical lift cams with fast ramps, and .... (drum roll please), roller lifters! Keep following the story, and you can even arrive at the original racing team that finally figured out what was causing their camshafts to be failing suddenly, some years ago. I think the team was Roush, but I don't remember with certainty. None the less, this urban legend will continue without interuption, right along side the need for backpressure, overheating from water going through radiators to rapidly, US Spitfires having lower front ends, centrifugal force, and several other falsehoods. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection >> There has >> been much talk in classic car circles about this, > > Indeed there has been a LOT of talk, but precious little hard evidence. > Just once, it would be nice for someone to assemble two identical engines > and demonstrate the difference of running a low-ZDDP oil in one, and > high-ZDDP in the other. The entire ZDDP debate seems to be based mostly > on > increased camshaft failures; but the increase in camshaft failures started > BEFORE the reduction in ZDDP! > > BTW, ZDDP comes into play when there is metal-to-metal contact, ie the oil > film breaks down. If full synthetics do have higher film strength, they > should be better able to maintain the microscopic oil film and hence have > less need of ZDDP. > > Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 22 16:44:23 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:44:23 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <207B392A10AA4ADCB61581B388690EA3@CPQ12949640186> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net><5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <207B392A10AA4ADCB61581B388690EA3@CPQ12949640186> Message-ID: <3D114677BC414CFAB1E9D7A7405F73C6@jdnet.deere.com> > For the big three do > NOT use roller lifters. Never have, and probably never will. Gee, that's odd. My 95 Buick has factory roller lifters. The 89 Dodge did too, though most people call them followers in OHC engines. Ford Mustangs have also had them for over 10 years (and some of them long before that). Were those not the big three you were thinking of ? :^) Randall From strovato at optonline.net Wed Oct 22 17:07:27 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:07:27 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <207B392A10AA4ADCB61581B388690EA3@CPQ12949640186> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <207B392A10AA4ADCB61581B388690EA3@CPQ12949640186> Message-ID: <0K9500MO3XKHL440@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Looking at the factory service manual for my 2005 Suburban, 5.3L V8. Nice picture of the lifter with a roller on the bottom. Decided not to disassemble the engine just to prove a point though. At 06:14 PM 10/22/2008, Nolan wrote: >There's a clue if you read the urban legend. It's where in claim >about the big three using roller lifters in all their engines. For >the big three do NOT use roller lifters. Never have, and probably never will. From opposumking at verizon.net Wed Oct 22 19:32:48 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:32:48 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net><5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <207B392A10AA4ADCB61581B388690EA3@CPQ12949640186> <3D114677BC414CFAB1E9D7A7405F73C6@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: Come off it Randall. You know you're spouting the exceptions. Don't play the childish troll. Flat surfaces sliding across the cam lobes is the rule, even in the OHC engines. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection >> For the big three do >> NOT use roller lifters. Never have, and probably never will. > > Gee, that's odd. My 95 Buick has factory roller lifters. The 89 Dodge > did > too, though most people call them followers in OHC engines. Ford Mustangs > have also had them for over 10 years (and some of them long before that). > > Were those not the big three you were thinking of ? > :^) > > Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 22 19:53:39 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:53:39 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081023015339.NMLA890.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > Come off it Randall. You know you're spouting the exceptions. No, I don't know that. I don't claim to be intimate with every engine made in the last 20 years; Those are just the only engines I know of offhand. But since every single one I have owned has roller lifters, it seems likely to me that it's common. Besides, you said they "never have", so it only takes one counter-example to show that is not a correct statement. Randall From jibjib at att.net Thu Oct 23 00:18:34 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:18:34 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm with Chip. I do annual changes (12-15k) on all vehicles and all run synthetic lubes, in the manufacturers suggested viscosity. I've done this since 1981 and most vehicles have gone close to, or over 200k miles with no engine issues. They usually get totaled out before I can wear them out. My Triumphs are, as of the last oil change, running Delo Diesel (old formulation, not the new Delo lite) due to zinc concerns in these flat tappet engines only, but I will get them back onto synthetic soon, probably Redline oils, as they have all the zinc, etc., that these engines need. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Chip Mautz Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:03 AM To: Mark Andy Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection I'm a renegade, I guess - or maybe a maverick? :-) I don't subscribe to the change early and often mantra, I go usually 10-15k/oil change in my vehicles. I've done this with: a 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (supercharged), no problems a 2007 Jeep Wrangler - 30k miles so far, no problems a 1999 BMW 323i - 142k miles, no problems a 1988 BMW 528e - 250k miles, no problems a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 a 1996 Land Rover Discovery and many other vehicles I've owned. Some dino, some synthetic (old mobil 1 formula). On another note - be aware, there is a new mobil 1 formula, which may not protect like the mobil 1 of old. Saw that on the net - maybe from some SCCA racers. Chip On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Bob Spidell wrote: > >> Ford recommends their 5W-20 semi-synthetic for my new Mustang--you >> think 30W is thin!--and oil changes every 7,500 hundred miles regardless of usage. >> I gave it a lot of thought and, since I drive mostly city miles, >> decided to go to a 5,000 mile interval. And, I stuck with the >> 5W-20--against my instincts, at first--when I found I can get it for >> $2/qt at WalMart. Yes, the manufacturers need better CAFE numbers, >> but new engines are built with such tight clearances a quality >> thinner oil will be fine. I believe Ford's engineers know what >> they're doing--even if their accountants don't ;) >> > > Everyone should make their own decision on this stuff, but you can get > oil analysis done (what's the plural of analysis?) to tell you the > condition of your oil. You can use that to determine if its ok to > extend your change intervale. > > One place is blackstone: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ > > I've been happy with their service and the price is pretty reasonable > to me. > > I routinely run >5k miles on conventional oil in our Chevy Venture and > Toyota MR2 and >8k on synthetic in our Honda Civic. Oil analysis in > each case at the end of a run made me feel fine with that. > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as clmautz at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jem at milleredp.com Wed Oct 22 20:19:02 2008 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:19:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net><5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> <0K95001MEL7576Y0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <207B392A10AA4ADCB61581B388690EA3@CPQ12949640186> <3D114677BC414CFAB1E9D7A7405F73C6@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <48FFDF16.3090509@milleredp.com> Nolan wrote: > Come off it Randall. You know you're spouting the exceptions. > Don't play the childish troll. Flat surfaces sliding across the cam > lobes is the rule, even in the OHC engines. Flat surfaces sliding across cam lobes is the rule in OHC engines, but not in pushrod motors. Tell me what pushrod motors Detroit's built in the last ten years that have flat tappets. The Ford 302/351 Windsors went roller starting in the mid '80s, all the passenger cars were roller by the early '90s, the truck 351s by the mid '90s IIRC and they were out of production a couple years thereafter anyway. I'm pretty sure the 3.8/4.2 V6 have been roller for a dozen years as well. Don't know about the 2.9/4.0 Cologne V6 or the 3.0 Vulcan. To my knowledge the 460 big-block never got rollers in production but it went away after '94 or '95 anyway. The Chevy small-block V8s went roller a long time ago, the big-block went roller with the L29 Vortec 7.4 motor in '94. The Buick V6 likewise went roller a long time ago. Once again don't know about the 2.8/3.1/3.4 Chevy V6 but it'd surprise me greatly if they weren't. The Chrysler 'hemi' V8 has roller lifters. Once again, don't know about the pushrod V6s but given that it's a pretty recent desing it'd be very surprising if they hadn't been. And that's about all the pushrod Detroit motors left that I can think of. John. From rbeels at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 00:40:19 2008 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 02:40:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: <491801.5018.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <2400a5d40810220957r453e6b8g2902a7c45255dd85@mail.gmail.com> <491801.5018.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081023023039.03d91e48@yahoo.com> Same here with a couple Audi I5 (straight 5) engines in the past year. These were from '88 with 200Kish miles on them. When we owned them (bought both used around 50K miles each), they got Rotella Synthetic, changed twice a year (spring and fall) with about 6-7000 miles between changes. Oil pan sprang a leak on one and when I dropped it there was only a hint of sludge/crudge in the bottom. Amazingly clean oil... Heck, I can still see honing marks on a couple of my Stihl chainsaw cylinders after years of running them. Of course, go a little lean and those honing marks turn to scoring marks... :-O At 10/22/2008 at 14:21, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Doug Braun's keyboard and said: >Last spring I had to replace the head gaskets on my >'98 Subaru, and I had a chance to inspect the cylinder >walls. Even after 125k miles, I could still see the >original honing marks all around the cylinder walls, >even in the regions where the greatest wear occurs. > >Also, when I checked the valve clearances, none of the >intake valves needed any adjustment. > >You'd never see these things in an older engine! Cheers! From mikey at b2systems.com Thu Oct 23 10:05:21 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:05:21 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil grade selection In-Reply-To: References: <48FF274B.5040003@comcast.net> <5f44dd4f0810221002p66c84cbbv6caf8b6cf7cae7b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4900A0C1.6090101@b2systems.com> I prefer to run synthetic on all my cars but I only do so on my newer cars, my older cars already leak some and everything I have read about synthetic is that it causes worse leaking. Did you do something to your Triumph before you put in synthetic (like new gaskets) to stop leaking ? I like Redline oils and glad to hear (although I could not confirm it on their website yet) that they have the needed zinc for my older motors. I only went with synthetic on my newer cars because they can sit for weeks at a time and I thought it would stick to the cams and other parts better as it is supposed to leave a film of oil longer than dino oil, I thought it would do less damage on startup if a film was still there after a month or so of not running. mike Jack Brooks wrote: > I'm with Chip. I do annual changes (12-15k) on all vehicles and all run > synthetic lubes, in the manufacturers suggested viscosity. I've done this > since 1981 and most vehicles have gone close to, or over 200k miles with no > engine issues. They usually get totaled out before I can wear them out. > > My Triumphs are, as of the last oil change, running Delo Diesel (old > formulation, not the new Delo lite) due to zinc concerns in these flat > tappet engines only, but I will get them back onto synthetic soon, probably > Redline oils, as they have all the zinc, etc., that these engines need. > > Jack > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Oct 24 14:03:54 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:03:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal Message-ID: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> I'm in the midst of a sale of wrenchs to a guy in New York State... I'm in Alabama. He wants to pay me by paypal... I have a paypal account I use for paying but never have used for receiving payment... how does it work ?? dangers ??? fees ??? It's a reasonably large amount of money so I'm wary thanks John A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Fri Oct 24 14:20:17 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:20:17 -1200 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal Message-ID: <49022e01.84.2ca3.1228847863@ml2.myemail.com> I've used PayPal to receive money but never large sums. I've just left the funds in my PayPal account and used it later towards purchases. I assume this lets PayPal take advantage of any interest earned but, as I said, it was never a large sum. I believe there is a way to access those funds - transfer them to a bank account for example - but I don't know the procedure nor if there are significant fees involved. Eric Russell Mebane, NC > I have a paypal account I use for paying but never have > used for receiving payment... how does it work ?? dangers > ??? fees ??? It's a reasonably large amount of money so > I'm wary > > thanks > John Login from home, work, school. Anywhere! From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Oct 24 14:32:22 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:32:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal In-Reply-To: References: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> Message-ID: sorry Karl.... it came up on GarageJournal and before I knew it I was selling wrenches... they are large size snap-on 4 way angle wrenches... from 1-1/2 up to 2" Most folks don't have a use for them big boys... next time I'm selling I'll mention it here also... j ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" To: "john niolon" Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] using paypal > > They will require you to give them a bank account. I gave them one I > don't use and have almost nothing in, because a couple of years ago they > were hacked and an acquaintance had huge troubles from the loss of his > banking info - personal and company. > > Their fees sound reasonable - just like the rest of eBay - till you add > them all up. They take a LOT of money. > > And why didn't you tell US you had wrenches for sale ??? Certainly > someone here could always use another couple of sets ;-) > > Karl > > >> I'm in the midst of a sale of wrenchs to a guy in New York State... I'm >> in >> Alabama. He wants to pay me by paypal... I have a paypal account I use >> for >> paying but never have used for receiving payment... how does it work ?? >> dangers ??? fees ??? It's a reasonably large amount of money so I'm >> wary >> >> thanks >> John >> >> >> A government which robs Peter to pay Paul >> can always depend on the support of Paul. >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Oct 24 14:51:47 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:51:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal In-Reply-To: <97A0CB00E55E40B4A752E49AB49ADAF8@jdnet.deere.com> References: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> <97A0CB00E55E40B4A752E49AB49ADAF8@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <42C2755E32494E09BBA9A5C603617FB8@OwnerPC> so hearing all the scary stories.... what would be a safe alternative ?? If I knew this guy it might be different but I don't.... I a little skittish about checks... been burned before... money order ??? j ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" To: "'john niolon'" Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] using paypal > John, > > If I recall the discussion correctly, a PayPal transfer is riskier than a > personal check. If PayPal somehow gets defrauded on the sending end, they > will seize your account, or sue you for fraud if you've already cleaned it > out. > > But it's worse than that. If the seller claims they don't receive the > merchandise, they can file a complaint with PayPal who will again seize > the > account until the dispute is settled (ie you prove that the buyer did > receive the merchandise). > > And it gets worse again if the buyer used a credit card to pay PayPal; now > all they have to do is claim to their credit card company that the > merchandise was defective or unacceptable in some way, and you have to > prove > to THEIR CC company that the claims are false. > > Google for "PayPal fraud", you'll get lots of hits. Of course, some of > those are probably fakes setup by PayPal's competitors, but not all of > them. > > There are some recently-enacted protections, but only for items > bought/sold > through eBay. Now that eBay owns PayPal, they don't much care about > outside > business. > > Randall > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk- >> bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon >> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:04 PM >> To: shop-talk >> Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal >> >> I'm in the midst of a sale of wrenchs to a guy in New York State... I'm >> in >> Alabama. He wants to pay me by paypal... I have a paypal account I use >> for >> paying but never have used for receiving payment... how does it work ?? >> dangers ??? fees ??? It's a reasonably large amount of money so I'm >> wary >> >> thanks >> John >> >> >> A government which robs Peter to pay Paul >> can always depend on the support of Paul. >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as tr3driver at ca.rr.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive From mpless at ucsd.edu Fri Oct 24 15:03:26 2008 From: mpless at ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:03:26 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal In-Reply-To: <42C2755E32494E09BBA9A5C603617FB8@OwnerPC> (from jniolon@bham.rr.com on Fri Oct 24 13:51:47 2008) References: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> <97A0CB00E55E40B4A752E49AB49ADAF8@jdnet.deere.com> <42C2755E32494E09BBA9A5C603617FB8@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1224882206l.4653l.1l@servo.ucsd.edu> I've been a Paypal member pretty much since day one and I've never had a problem, but it seems like they have had some issues over the years. If you're not comfortable with Paypal ask for a check or money order and don't ship until it clears. --Marcus On 10/24/2008 01:51:47 PM, john niolon wrote: > so hearing all the scary stories.... what would be a safe alternative > ?? If > I knew this guy it might be different but I don't.... I a little > skittish > about checks... been burned before... money order ??? > > j > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randall" > To: "'john niolon'" > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:45 PM > Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] using paypal > > > > John, > > > > If I recall the discussion correctly, a PayPal transfer is riskier > than a > > personal check. If PayPal somehow gets defrauded on the sending > end, they > > will seize your account, or sue you for fraud if you've already > cleaned it > > out. > > > > But it's worse than that. If the seller claims they don't receive > the > > merchandise, they can file a complaint with PayPal who will again > seize > > the > > account until the dispute is settled (ie you prove that the buyer > did > > receive the merchandise). > > > > And it gets worse again if the buyer used a credit card to pay > PayPal; now > > all they have to do is claim to their credit card company that the > > merchandise was defective or unacceptable in some way, and you have > to > > prove > > to THEIR CC company that the claims are false. > > > > Google for "PayPal fraud", you'll get lots of hits. Of course, > some > of > > those are probably fakes setup by PayPal's competitors, but not all > of > > them. > > > > There are some recently-enacted protections, but only for items > > bought/sold > > through eBay. Now that eBay owns PayPal, they don't much care > about > > > outside > > business. > > > > Randall > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk- > >> bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of john niolon > >> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:04 PM > >> To: shop-talk > >> Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal > >> > >> I'm in the midst of a sale of wrenchs to a guy in New York > State... > I'm > >> in > >> Alabama. He wants to pay me by paypal... I have a paypal account > I > use > >> for > >> paying but never have used for receiving payment... how does it > work ?? > >> dangers ??? fees ??? It's a reasonably large amount of money so > I'm > >> wary > >> > >> thanks > >> John > >> > >> > >> A government which robs Peter to pay Paul > >> can always depend on the support of Paul. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >> > >> You are subscribed as tr3driver at ca.rr.com > >> > >> Shop-talk mailing list > >> > >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >> > >> http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as mpless at ucsd.edu > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Oct 24 15:23:30 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:23:30 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal In-Reply-To: <42C2755E32494E09BBA9A5C603617FB8@OwnerPC> References: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> <97A0CB00E55E40B4A752E49AB49ADAF8@jdnet.deere.com> <42C2755E32494E09BBA9A5C603617FB8@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <346DAE3C8B7A4F4FB7A57F4F5B04F7C4@jdnet.deere.com> > so hearing all the scary stories.... what would be a safe alternative ?? Beats me. Any kind of paper can be forged (including cash), so the only 'safe' alternatives I know of are either a direct bank-to-bank wire transfer or paying an escrow company to assume some of the risk. But both of those have disadvantages (cost, inconvenience, delay). Randall From opposumking at verizon.net Fri Oct 24 17:51:44 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 19:51:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal References: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <0A7591A65BBD4F88A03FFD8B4177E7B7@CPQ12949640186> So far, knock on wood, I've not been burned on or by paypal, yet. I've had what used to be called a pro account for so long, I've no idea if they still have the lower accounts that will let you receive a payment without a fee. But, if it's a credit card payment, you'd need a pro account, and it's something like a 5% fee they skim off the top. If it's an e-bay sale, if the customer does a chargeback paypal typically freezes your account, then transfers the money back to the buyer, and then considers investigating. In that order from what I hear. Safest course of action is to immediately transfer the funds to your bank account. But that's no guarantee either, as I've heard it boths ways, they can they cannot access your bank account to cover chargebacks. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Oct 24 22:43:54 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:43:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal In-Reply-To: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> References: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4902A40A.50603@xxiii.com> john niolon wrote: > I'm in the midst of a sale of wrenchs to a guy in New York State... I'm in > Alabama. He wants to pay me by paypal... I have a paypal account I use for > paying but never have used for receiving payment... how does it work ?? > dangers ??? fees ??? It's a reasonably large amount of money so I'm wary I'd say, in general, it's "safer" than other payment methods. But you will be hit with fees. I opened an account several years ago. You got some very limited number (3/year?) of "free" transactions with no fees. But that doesn't go very far if you ebay a lot. I sold a pair of concert tickets for $400, and the buyer wanted to pay with a credit card. To accept CC payments or get over the transaction limit, you had to upgrade to a "premium" or something account. However, once you did that, they started charging fees on *every* transaction. I forget exactly how much they are, but it's like 3 - 5%. It's a substantial hit if you're talking a couple hundred bucks. (Keep that in mind every time you hand plastic to a vendor - the bank skims 2 - 3%) Once the funds are received, you can leave them sit (which I'm sure they are hoping for) or transfer them to a bank account. I did the later and had them within a day or two. They offer fraud protection to the buyer and seller, but tend to favor the buyer. People have complained about funds being frozen by fraudulent non-receipt or damage claims, and having to put up a large fight. The only alternatives I would accept would be cash or a US postal money order. -Wayne From burkheimer at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 17:15:09 2008 From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:15:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 2, Issue 314 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4382458b0810251615t77a1b08bhf10a3bc5222acb06@mail.gmail.com> John, I occasionally buy and sell a firearm long distance, similar money probably. The standard deal is USPS money order, or if Paypal add 4% (buyer pays the fees. This is SOP. Some people will take a check with the understanding that nothing ships until the check clears the sellers bank. If it's a bank with a local branch, you can just go there and present it for cash. > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:03:54 -0500 > From: "john niolon" > Subject: [Shop-talk] using paypal > To: "shop-talk" > Message-ID: <88653B80C3C54BA38851AE60AB18B072 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I'm in the midst of a sale of wrenchs to a guy in New York State... I'm in > Alabama. He wants to pay me by paypal... I have a paypal account I use for > paying but never have used for receiving payment... how does it work ?? > dangers ??? fees ??? It's a reasonably large amount of money so I'm wary > > thanks > John From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sat Oct 25 18:53:24 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:53:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a car again (for the first time) Message-ID: Please forgive the long preamble, but I think this question needs a bit of set-up. The first time I painted a car was in 1977, when I painted my 1966 Sunbeam Alpine. I did the work in a friend's garage, using lacquer paint and primer, his 5hp Sears compressor and his Binks #18 spray gun. I was pleased with the way the paint job came out, but the car was then a daily driver that lived outside and some of my body work (i.e., filler and fiberglass) failed over the next ten years. So, I painted it again using the same compressor and paint gun (I had bought them from the friend, since I was the only one who had ever used them) and a two stage enamel this time. 20 years later, the car still looks good from 10 feet, although the paint job is getting a bit tired. Still, I'd call myself a pretty good amateur, although I can easily tell the difference between my work and a professional's. So, now I am faced with my third paint job in 30 years, but not the '66 Alpine. In addition to that one, I recently purchased a '63 that was someone else's stalled restoration project. The PO had the car sandblasted and painted, then got a divorce and let the project sit for 8 years. I bought it as a rolling shell with everything else in boxes. His paint job wasn't all that good and the color was off. I will be redoing it in the correct shade and fixing damage caused by the years and the PO's dogs. My intention is to sand down the engine compartment, door jambs, floors and trunk, and re-paint those myself. I'll then put the engine and transmission back in the car and get it running again. At that point, I'll have to decide if I want to paint the body myself or hire a professional to do it. But that decision is a ways off. But, the decision that is close at hand is what to use for painting the engine bay, etc. Should I just use the old Binks (I am pretty sure the only time it has ever been used were my two paint jobs and it has been sitting for the last 20 years) or should I invest in a new HVLP system? And, if I do go with a new system, can I get by with something from Harbor Freight or do I have to invest real money? BTW: I no longer have the Sears 5 HP, but do have a Husky 7HP unit that should easily be up to the task. I have lots of other follow-up questions re: this phase of the project, but this seemed like the right place to start. Thanks in advance for any help and advice. Cheers, Jim _________________________________________________________________ Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns! 20EE04FBC541789!167.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008 From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Oct 25 19:20:02 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:20:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a car again (for the first time) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081025211035.01d51510@cox.net> At 08:53 PM 10/25/2008, Jim Stone wrote: >Should I just use the old Binks (I am pretty sure the only time it has ever been >used were my two paint jobs and it has been sitting for the last 20 years) or I get by with something from Harbor Freight or do I have to invest real money? Jim, When I painted my Morgan, back in the early 90s, I used a cheap syphon gun similar to your Binks. Now I'm working on a 75 Bricklin. I'd seen ads for the HVLP and got a HF HVLP gravity feed main gun and touchup gun as Xmas presents several years ago. I've used the bigger gun quite a bit and don't really have any complaints about them. I think you can get them for $49 for the large gun and $39 for the touch up gun when their on sale. I good HVLP system has it's own compressor usually with a heater inside the turbine compressor. These are supposedly the cat's meow, but I can't justify the price for one or two paint jobs. I was at BJs or Costco (don't remember which it was) reciently and saw an HVLP setup that had both the large (1 qt) and touch up guns in a kit for something like $75. The nice thing about that set, it appeared to have a couple of different needles for the guns. This is great when trying to spray the high build primers, as you should have a larger opening in the spray head than for the thinner top coats. You might want to take a look for that. The price was right! I use a 5 hp 30 gal compressor for my painting. The one nice thing about the HVLP is the my compressor keeps up with the air consumption better than it does with the older guns. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Oct 25 19:55:04 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:55:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a car again (for the first time) References: Message-ID: <830586B991454F7E8FA466ABBADD901D@KARL> Jim - You have a great gun in that Binks #18. It's capable of painting the highest quality finish possible on your car. You know how to use it, and would have some advantage over having to learn how to use an HVLP setup. You're not (apparently) planning on painting lots more cars in the next couple of years. HVLP has some advantage in overspray, but your gun will do as well or better in terms of quality. Why buy a Horrible Freight POS when you have and can use a real professional tool ?? Or, as they say, "if it ain't broke..." Karl PS - I worked at Binks most of the years between 1971 and 1985, and have painted lots of cars with my Binks guns - lots of other stuff too, from buildings to furniture to airplanes. I might be a bit biased ;-) > Should I just use the old Binks (I am pretty sure the only time it > has ever been used were my two paint jobs and it has been sitting for the > last > 20 years) or should I invest in a new HVLP system? And, if I do go with a > new > system, can I get by with something from Harbor Freight or do I have to > invest > real money? BTW: I no longer have the Sears 5 HP, but do have a Husky > 7HP > unit that should easily be up to the task. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Oct 27 11:11:01 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:11:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hey Y'all -- important windows security patch Message-ID: <49060435.5000507@xxiii.com> Gretings Shop-Talkers, I don't usually send stuff like this, cause the majority you receive is some bogus alarmist crap from a non-technical person. But this is real: Just last week Microsoft announced a new security exploit discovered in all current windows versions. It's expected the bad guys will start trying to spread this one very quickly in the next few, and once a machine is infected it will try to propogate to others (it's a "worm"). http://support.microsoft.com/kb/958644 It's considered critical enough that MS released a special patch just for it (rather than their one a month batches) AND you don't have to have all the "Genuine Windows Authentication" bull$7it running. If you have the "automatic updates" running on XP, you may already have it. But it's quick to load and install, and doesn't hurt to try, even if you're already auto-updated. For windoze XP (most of ya'): http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=0D5F9B6E-9265-44B9-A376-2067B73D6A03&displaylang=en For windoze 2000: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=E22EB3AE-1295-4FE2-9775-6F43C5C2AED3&displaylang=en For Vista.... you were apparently oblivious to all the warnings for the last 3 years saying "Vista sucks". You're on your own. Search for KB958644 for any others (server editions or 64 bit). If you're still running '98, it hasn't been supported in years. No patches. Don't know if it's vulnerable. And much as I hate to say it "send this to every one you know" -Wayne From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 11:42:35 2008 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:42:35 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Hey Y'all -- important windows security patch In-Reply-To: <49060435.5000507@xxiii.com> References: <49060435.5000507@xxiii.com> Message-ID: Probably nothing to worry about if you sit behind a hardware firewall all day that blocks Netbios ports, but the potential for this to be used in other ways possibly the web still makes it important to patch anyway. Having a working software firewall is also a good idea if you're one of the few that uses unencrypted wireless networks. Also a good time to update your virus definitions, Symantec for example has detection in place for the known viruses related to this, as of Friday. The viruses are information stealers. The remotely accessible nature of the vulnerability makes it very worm-able. And there are patches for Vista, tho Vista is not as vulnerable as XP/W2K in the first place: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=18FDFF67-C723-42BD-A C5C-CAC7D8713B21&displaylang=en PJ > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:11:01 -0400 > From: wmc_st at xxiii.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: [Shop-talk] Hey Y'all -- important windows security patch > > Gretings Shop-Talkers, > > I don't usually send stuff like this, cause the majority you receive is > some bogus alarmist crap from a non-technical person. But this is real: > > Just last week Microsoft announced a new security exploit discovered in > all current windows versions. It's expected the bad guys will start > trying to spread this one very quickly in the next few, and once a > machine is infected it will try to propogate to others (it's a "worm"). > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/958644 > > It's considered critical enough that MS released a special patch just > for it (rather than their one a month batches) AND you don't have to > have all the "Genuine Windows Authentication" bull$7it running. > > If you have the "automatic updates" running on XP, you may already have > it. But it's quick to load and install, and doesn't hurt to try, even > if you're already auto-updated. > > For windoze XP (most of ya'): > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=0D5F9B6E-9265-44B9-A 376-2067B73D6A03&displaylang=en > > For windoze 2000: > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=E22EB3AE-1295-4FE2-9 775-6F43C5C2AED3&displaylang=en > > For Vista.... you were apparently oblivious to all the warnings for the > last 3 years saying "Vista sucks". You're on your own. > > Search for KB958644 for any others (server editions or 64 bit). If > you're still running '98, it hasn't been supported in years. No > patches. Don't know if it's vulnerable. > > And much as I hate to say it "send this to every one you know" > > -Wayne From cornerexit at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 18:06:11 2008 From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:06:11 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Blower for woodstove, and ouside combustion air Message-ID: <59419951ED6B407EAC192251EC6B83E4@Waynehouseputer> Hello, Blower motor: I have an epa close clearance woodstove in my shop that I'd like to ad a blower to, see picture in link. The factory offers a standard blower that is 130cfm and costs $300+ dollars. I'm thinking I can get a blower motor for less than that and manufacture any duct work required. As you can see in the picture there is only about 6" between the back of the stove and the wall to mount a blower. Where should I look for a blower motor for this application? Outside combustion air: I'm also considering adding outside combustion air for this stove. As you can see from the picture the combustion air is drawn up through a hole in the bottom of the stove. This hole is a little under 4" diameter circle. I should be able to put some sort of 90 on there and run straight out the back wall, and then put some sort of grill/screen that will prevent water from getting in while it is running down the surface of the exterior wall. What are my options for ducting material in this application? http://jacksonii.smugmug.com/photos/390265003_a4n8N-M.jpg Thanks Wayne From shiples at comcast.net Mon Oct 27 20:24:16 2008 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:24:16 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Blower for woodstove, and ouside combustion air In-Reply-To: <59419951ED6B407EAC192251EC6B83E4@Waynehouseputer> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081027201325.030e8f20@mail.comcast.net> At 06:06 PM 10/27/2008 -0700, cornerexit wrote: >I'm also considering adding outside combustion air for this stove. As you >can see from the picture the combustion air is drawn up through a hole in >the bottom of the stove. This hole is a little under 4" diameter circle. I >should be able to put some sort of 90 on there and run straight out the back >wall, and then put some sort of grill/screen that will prevent water from >getting in while it is running down the surface of the exterior wall. > > > >What are my options for ducting material in this application? When I remodelled my house, outside air was a requirement for the fireplaces. It was 4 inch round aluminum? air duct as I recall. In my case, I was able to buy a little damper that I installed in the side of the fireplace so you close off the outside air. I can't see this stuff anymore but I suspect that I used a dryer vent to go through the exterior wall and made a little hood out of copper. Think fire resistant, with a damper, and a screen to keep the critters out and I think you'll have it. From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Tue Oct 28 03:04:53 2008 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 06:04:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Blower for woodstove, and ouside combustion air In-Reply-To: <59419951ED6B407EAC192251EC6B83E4@Waynehouseputer> Message-ID: <4D3CE17BB3C7499DBE517FD405134E7E@DADSTOY> Here's the place I would look first.... https://www.surpluscenter.com -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of cornerexit Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:06 PM To: 'Shop Talk' Subject: [Shop-talk] Blower for woodstove, and ouside combustion air Hello, Blower motor: I have an epa close clearance woodstove in my shop that I'd like to ad a blower to, see picture in link. The factory offers a standard blower that is 130cfm and costs $300+ dollars. I'm thinking I can get a blower motor for less than that and manufacture any duct work required. As you can see in the picture there is only about 6" between the back of the stove and the wall to mount a blower. Where should I look for a blower motor for this application? Outside combustion air: I'm also considering adding outside combustion air for this stove. As you can see from the picture the combustion air is drawn up through a hole in the bottom of the stove. This hole is a little under 4" diameter circle. I should be able to put some sort of 90 on there and run straight out the back wall, and then put some sort of grill/screen that will prevent water from getting in while it is running down the surface of the exterior wall. What are my options for ducting material in this application? http://jacksonii.smugmug.com/photos/390265003_a4n8N-M.jpg Thanks Wayne You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jandkstone99 at msn.com Tue Oct 28 05:16:59 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:16:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a car again (for the first time) In-Reply-To: <830586B991454F7E8FA466ABBADD901D@KARL> References: <830586B991454F7E8FA466ABBADD901D@KARL> Message-ID: Thanks guys. I thought there might be a unanimous recommendation one way or the other. It is interesting to see how evenly divided opinions are. I've got some time to decide, but right now am leaning towards Karl's recommendation to stay with what I know, even though that knowledge is pretty old. My first step is to rough up the current finish and use a primer/surfacer. Things have changed a lot since I last painted. I have seen recommendations to use Scotch Brite pads to clean and prep the old paint. Do people just buy them at the hardware store, or are there specific ones made for this purpose? > From: kvacek at ameritech.net > To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Painting a car again (for the first time) > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:55:04 -0500 > > > Jim - > > You have a great gun in that Binks #18. It's capable of painting the > highest quality finish possible on your car. You know how to use it, and > would have some advantage over having to learn how to use an HVLP setup. > You're not (apparently) planning on painting lots more cars in the next > couple of years. > > HVLP has some advantage in overspray, but your gun will do as well or better > in terms of quality. Why buy a Horrible Freight POS when you have and can > use a real professional tool ?? > > Or, as they say, "if it ain't broke..." > > Karl > > PS - I worked at Binks most of the years between 1971 and 1985, and have > painted lots of cars with my Binks guns - lots of other stuff too, from > buildings to furniture to airplanes. I might be a bit biased ;-) > > > > > Should I just use the old Binks (I am pretty sure the only time it > > has ever been used were my two paint jobs and it has been sitting for the > > last > > 20 years) or should I invest in a new HVLP system? And, if I do go with a > > new > > system, can I get by with something from Harbor Freight or do I have to > > invest > > real money? BTW: I no longer have the Sears 5 HP, but do have a Husky > > 7HP > > unit that should easily be up to the task. > _________________________________________________________________ Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_ 102008 From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Oct 28 05:34:59 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 05:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Painting a car again (for the first time) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39109.10103.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The scotch-brites work well because they uniformly roughen up the old paint and are less likely to cut all the way through edges, corners, etc. But you can get them a lot cheaper than at the hardware store. At a swap meet, I got a bunch of generic jumbo-size (4x8") pads for about 50 cents each. Also note that these pads come in varying degrees roughness, depending on what sort of abrasive is molded into the fibers. On one end you have the wimpy style for kitchen use. Then there are some really powerful types that will put deep scratches in polished metal, etc. Doug --- Jim Stone wrote: > My first step is to rough up the current finish and > use a primer/surfacer. > Things have changed a lot since I last painted. I > have seen recommendations > to use Scotch Brite pads to clean and prep the old > paint. Do people just buy > them at the hardware store, or are there specific > ones made for this purpose? From jandkstone99 at msn.com Tue Oct 28 07:39:47 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:39:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts Message-ID: My garage was designed with high walls and a cathedral ceiling to one day accommodate a home lift system. I don't need one just yet, but am always keeping my eyes open for a bargain that would make me pull the trigger faster. There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they are selling their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever need, but they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so they would probably take less. However, I just checked the architectural plans on my garage floor and here is what it says about the floor: 4" concrete slab with 6 x 6 x W1.4 x W1.4 W.W.M. on gravel fill as required. I don't understand anything after "slab", but this doesn't seem like much to me. Should I forgo the commercial lift at any price? Will I be ok with a lighter weight one? It only needs to be able to lift and store a Sunbeam Alpine, so 10,000 lbs is way overkill. Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ When your life is on the gotake your life with you. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/ From mark at sccaprepared.com Tue Oct 28 07:49:26 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Jim Stone wrote: > My garage was designed with high walls and a cathedral ceiling to one > day accommodate a home lift system. I don't need one just yet, but am > always keeping my eyes open for a bargain that would make me pull the > trigger faster. There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house > and they are selling their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more > than I will ever need, but they are currently asking $1000 and need it > gone by tomorrow, so they would probably take less. However, I just > checked the architectural plans on my garage floor and here is what it > says about the floor: > > 4" concrete slab with 6 x 6 x W1.4 x W1.4 W.W.M. on gravel fill as required. > > I don't understand anything after "slab", but this doesn't seem like > much to me. Should I forgo the commercial lift at any price? Will I be > ok with a lighter weight one? It only needs to be able to lift and > store a Sunbeam Alpine, so 10,000 lbs is way overkill. I am very much not an expert. You can, assuming you can get the manufacturer of the lift, probably get their floor specs off their website or call them to get them. IIRC, most of the ones I've seen for a 2 post lift are 6" concrete, with some psi rating (not sure if that rating is higher than a "normal" garage floor). That doesn't mean you can't do it... You just might need to have a section of the floor cut out and repoured. This isn't all that huge a deal. Also, I think the requirements for any two post lift will be similar... I don't think a commercial 2 post will be any different than a lighter duty 2 post, given the same weight on the lift itself (i.e. the 10k lb rating may dictate a better floor, but unless you have 10k on it, the floor rating for the 7k light duty version will work). Again, not an expert. And if it was me, I'd also be pretty concerned about a 4" floor with a 2 post lift. Mark From parkanzky at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 07:49:45 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:49:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If this is a 2-post lift, that usually calls for 6" of concrete. 4" is fine for a 4-post lift. If you're planning to store your car, what you want is a 4-post lift that supports the car on its wheels so that the suspension is not at droop during storage. You can still do 'wheels off' work with a rolling jack or jack trays and bottle jacks. I have a Direct Lift 4-post lift from Greg Smith Equipment. The lift is perfectly adequate, and I think it's a good value for the money. My Lotus is currently hibernating on it and I park my daily-driver TDI underneath it every day. -Paul On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Jim Stone wrote: > My garage was designed with high walls and a cathedral ceiling to one day > accommodate a home lift system. I don't need one just yet, but am always > keeping my eyes open for a bargain that would make me pull the trigger > faster. > There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they are > selling > their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever need, but > they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so they would > probably take less. However, I just checked the architectural plans on my > garage floor and here is what it says about the floor: > > 4" concrete slab with 6 x 6 x W1.4 x W1.4 W.W.M. on gravel fill as > required. > > I don't understand anything after "slab", but this doesn't seem like much > to > me. Should I forgo the commercial lift at any price? Will I be ok with a > lighter weight one? It only needs to be able to lift and store a Sunbeam > Alpine, so 10,000 lbs is way overkill. > > Thanks. From gpd4 at juno.com Tue Oct 28 07:59:21 2008 From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:59:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts Message-ID: <20081028.105922.11444.10.gpd4@juno.com> Buy the lift. It is probably an excellent opportunity. You have two options for the floor. #1 is to saw cut a rectangle and pour that section deeper after doing the calculations to size it. However, if it were me doing it for myself without anyone to answer to or create a liability situation, I would do the following: #1, drill a hole in the floor where each post is going. Carefully and slowly to determine how thick the floor really is. It could just as easily be 5" as 3" thick. #2, If it is at least 4", then buy some 1/2" steel plate and weld it to the bottom of the lift to make a larger base plate. As long as the load is spread in the floor to minimize a concentrated point load, you will be fine. Locate the new anchor bolts further apart and you're good to go. GPD4 On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:39:47 -0500 Jim Stone writes: > My garage was designed with high walls and a cathedral ceiling to one > day > accommodate a home lift system. I don't need one just yet, but am > always > keeping my eyes open for a bargain that would make me pull the > trigger faster. > There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they > are selling > their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever > need, but > they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so > they would > probably take less. However, I just checked the architectural plans > on my > garage floor and here is what it says about the floor: > > 4" concrete slab with 6 x 6 x W1.4 x W1.4 W.W.M. on gravel fill as > required. > > I don't understand anything after "slab", but this doesn't seem like > much to > me. Should I forgo the commercial lift at any price? Will I be ok > with a > lighter weight one? It only needs to be able to lift and store a > Sunbeam > Alpine, so 10,000 lbs is way overkill. > > Thanks. > > _________________________________________________________________ > When your life is on the gotake your life with you. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ____________________________________________________________ Need cash? Click to get a loan. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mKivdJjXoHXJqpELYTVAxbakNQprKKcjERks8sQkhy5DDqG/ From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Tue Oct 28 07:54:24 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:54:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490727A0.7060609@HorneSystemsTx.com> Jim, 6" x6" Welded Wire Mesh, I don't know what the w1.4 means, but it is the size of the wire used in the mesh. I read this to mean that there is no rebar in your slab. You might want to check with an engineer or concrete contractor to be sure that it will be enough. Since slabs under lifts are usually thicker than what you have, you may want to consider putting down steel plates where the lift legs hit the slab to spread the load out. An engineer, or at least someone with experience with this could tell you how big to make them. If you know the manufacturer of the lift you could call them and ask how to handle the thinner slab under their lift. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Stone: > My garage was designed with high walls and a cathedral ceiling to one day > accommodate a home lift system. I don't need one just yet, but am always > keeping my eyes open for a bargain that would make me pull the trigger faster. > There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they are selling > their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever need, but > they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so they would > probably take less. However, I just checked the architectural plans on my > garage floor and here is what it says about the floor: > > 4" concrete slab with 6 x 6 x W1.4 x W1.4 W.W.M. on gravel fill as required. > > I don't understand anything after "slab", but this doesn't seem like much to > me. Should I forgo the commercial lift at any price? Will I be ok with a > lighter weight one? It only needs to be able to lift and store a Sunbeam > Alpine, so 10,000 lbs is way overkill. > > Thanks. > > _________________________________________________________________ > When your life is on the gotake your life with you. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1750 - Release Date: 10/27/2008 6:14 PM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From mark at sccaprepared.com Tue Oct 28 08:14:02 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <20081028.105922.11444.10.gpd4@juno.com> References: <20081028.105922.11444.10.gpd4@juno.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, George P Dausch IV wrote: > #2, If it is at least 4", then buy some 1/2" steel plate and weld it to > the bottom of the lift to make a larger base plate. As long as the load > is spread in the floor to minimize a concentrated point load, you will > be fine. Locate the new anchor bolts further apart and you're good to > go. GPD4 You forgot "then trip over that f*#king plate every day for the rest of your natural life, hating the fact that you didn't just replace a rectangle of the floor. :-) Mark From trevor at boicey.com Tue Oct 28 08:08:38 2008 From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:08:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49072AF6.8070905@boicey.com> Jim Stone wrote: > There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they are selling > their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever need, but > they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so they would > probably take less. Measure it first, and compare to a residential lift. I also chased a few commercial lifts until I realized how much larger they were. (these were four posts) The extra width is nice in theory, but it takes up a lot of the next parking spot and would have been problematic. The residential lifts are generally narrow enough to use one typical home garage bay, and not intrude on the next one. From gpd4 at juno.com Tue Oct 28 08:48:00 2008 From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:48:00 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts Message-ID: <20081028.114800.11444.11.gpd4@juno.com> No I didn't. My lift has the cables running on the slab under the domed plate between the posts. I trip over that regularly, although I did finally cut the wedge anchor bolts off after tripping over them for a decade. On one side my post ended up right on top of the trench rain, so that required a little creativity also. Along with drilling the round hole in the floor of the mezzanine for the cylinder to go up through. That would be after I couldn't figute out why it wouldn't go up any higher than about 18". GPD4 On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Mark Andy writes: > Howdy, > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, George P Dausch IV wrote: > > #2, If it is at least 4", then buy some 1/2" steel plate and weld > it to > > the bottom of the lift to make a larger base plate. As long as > the load > > is spread in the floor to minimize a concentrated point load, you > will > > be fine. Locate the new anchor bolts further apart and you're > good to > > go. GPD4 > > You forgot "then trip over that f*#king plate every day for the rest > of > your natural life, hating the fact that you didn't just replace a > rectangle of the floor. > > :-) > > Mark > > ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find Medical Transcription Training programs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nFN8g8KKHHovudi3aSXSwk6CI18F44FS6QynlDqUcHiU9Iy/ From brabel at comcast.net Tue Oct 28 09:23:28 2008 From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:23:28 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <49072AF6.8070905@boicey.com> References: <49072AF6.8070905@boicey.com> Message-ID: > There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they > are selling > their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever > need, but > they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so > they would > probably take less. If the commercial lift is a two-post lift, t will take extensive anchoring to make it usable. If the lift is four-post, it can stand free on the floor without any anchoring. Costco has a four-post lift in their on-line catalog, and shipping is included. That would be my choice: New, clean, and with a warranty. - Bill Rabel Anacortes, WA From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Oct 28 08:17:56 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:17:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim according to www.rebar.ecn.purude.edu/wwr 6x6 is the spacing of the wire W designates smooth wire not deformed wire 1.4 is the cross sectional area of the wire in hundredths of an square inch a concrete man would just say 6x6 wire mesh and let her go john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" To: "shop talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:39 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts > My garage was designed with high walls and a cathedral ceiling to one day > accommodate a home lift system. I don't need one just yet, but am always > keeping my eyes open for a bargain that would make me pull the trigger > faster. > There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they are > selling > their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever need, > but > they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so they > would > probably take less. However, I just checked the architectural plans on my > garage floor and here is what it says about the floor: > > 4" concrete slab with 6 x 6 x W1.4 x W1.4 W.W.M. on gravel fill as > required. > > I don't understand anything after "slab", but this doesn't seem like much > to > me. Should I forgo the commercial lift at any price? Will I be ok with a > lighter weight one? It only needs to be able to lift and store a Sunbeam > Alpine, so 10,000 lbs is way overkill. > > Thanks. > > _________________________________________________________________ > When your life is on the gotake your life with you. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 28 15:00:48 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:00:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: Message-ID: <34FCBC3A804041DCA74939E0D0805076@KARL> John, John, John - That's Purdue - as in one of the foremost engineering schools in the country and alma mater to at least two of us list members. This might be what you meant: http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/wwr/Design%20Resources/sheetnomenclature.aspx > Jim > according to www.rebar.ecn.purude.edu/wwr > > 6x6 is the spacing of the wire > W designates smooth wire not deformed wire > 1.4 is the cross sectional area of the wire in hundredths of an square > inch > > a concrete man would just say 6x6 wire mesh and let her go > > john From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 28 15:09:00 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:09:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: <34FCBC3A804041DCA74939E0D0805076@KARL> Message-ID: <7F3FD7AE9A3740ABB74C947989E6F2B5@KARL> My reply sounded kind of wise-ass - but I was just trying (poorly) to be funny. Sorry - I really didn't mean to be a jerk, although it's kinda congenital with me... > John, John, John - That's Purdue - as in one of the foremost engineering > schools in the country and alma mater to at least two of us list members. > > > This might be what you meant: > > http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/wwr/Design%20Resources/sheetnomenclature.aspx From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 15:12:09 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:12:09 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <7F3FD7AE9A3740ABB74C947989E6F2B5@KARL> References: <34FCBC3A804041DCA74939E0D0805076@KARL> <7F3FD7AE9A3740ABB74C947989E6F2B5@KARL> Message-ID: <2400a5d40810281512oea76826q8f8db90616874fb4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > My reply sounded kind of wise-ass - but I was just trying (poorly) to be > funny. Sorry - I really didn't mean to be a jerk, although it's kinda > congenital with me... Just living up to the purude reputation? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Tue Oct 28 15:37:05 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:37:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks everyone for the great advice. I am now a whole lot smarter than I was this morning. Unfortunately, it turns out to be a false alarm, as I just called the seller again and learned that he had another buyer. He is going to call me if it falls through, but I suspect that it was probably too large for me anyway. I have enough space for it, but it would certainly make my garage smaller. Regardless, for now I will keep looking for that irresistible bargain, or just buy one retail if the real need arises before that time comes. Thanks again. > From: jniolon at bham.rr.com > To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:17:56 -0500 > > Jim > according to www.rebar.ecn.purude.edu/wwr > > 6x6 is the spacing of the wire > W designates smooth wire not deformed wire > 1.4 is the cross sectional area of the wire in hundredths of an square inch > > a concrete man would just say 6x6 wire mesh and let her go > > john > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Stone" > To: "shop talk" > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:39 AM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts > > > > My garage was designed with high walls and a cathedral ceiling to one day > > accommodate a home lift system. I don't need one just yet, but am always > > keeping my eyes open for a bargain that would make me pull the trigger > > faster. > > There is an auto shop closing about a mile from my house and they are > > selling > > their 10,000 lb commercial lift. It is far more than I will ever need, > > but > > they are currently asking $1000 and need it gone by tomorrow, so they > > would > > probably take less. However, I just checked the architectural plans on my > > garage floor and here is what it says about the floor: > > > > 4" concrete slab with 6 x 6 x W1.4 x W1.4 W.W.M. on gravel fill as > > required. > > > > I don't understand anything after "slab", but this doesn't seem like much > > to > > me. Should I forgo the commercial lift at any price? Will I be ok with a > > lighter weight one? It only needs to be able to lift and store a Sunbeam > > Alpine, so 10,000 lbs is way overkill. > > > > Thanks. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > When your life is on the gotake your life with you. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > > > Shop-talk mailing list > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > > http://www.team.net/archive > _________________________________________________________________ Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008 From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 28 19:08:43 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:08:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <34FCBC3A804041DCA74939E0D0805076@KARL> Message-ID: <20081029010844.MLGZ6605.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > as in one of the foremost > engineering schools in the country and alma mater to at least > two of us list members. SHHH ! Some of us don't like to talk about it. Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Oct 28 19:00:30 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:00:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: <20081029010844.MLGZ6605.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> > SHHH ! > > Some of us don't like to talk about it. > > Randall Hey - I didn't name anyone - you came out of the slide-rule case all by yourself !! Karl From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 28 22:15:03 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:15:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> Message-ID: <20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Hey - I didn't name anyone - you came out of the slide-rule > case all by yourself !! Hmm, oughta dig that out one of these days. "Back when I was your age, calculators didn't need batteries, nor solar power neither!" Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 21:19:31 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:19:31 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40810282119k3cd95c5dubc8837a4b92e05b5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Randall wrote: >> Hey - I didn't name anyone - you came out of the slide-rule >> case all by yourself !! > > Hmm, oughta dig that out one of these days. "Back when I was your age, > calculators didn't need batteries, nor solar power neither!" > Did require the log-trig tables, though. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Oct 28 22:46:01 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:46:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40810282119k3cd95c5dubc8837a4b92e05b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081029044600.BGOZ26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Did require the log-trig tables, though. Only if you had the cheap model without the log & trig scales. Randall From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Wed Oct 29 06:49:47 2008 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 06:49:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40810282119k3cd95c5dubc8837a4b92e05b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40810282119k3cd95c5dubc8837a4b92e05b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Scheidt [mailto:dmscheidt at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:20 PM > To: Randall > Cc: shop-talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and > garage lifts > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Randall wrote: > >> Hey - I didn't name anyone - you came out of the > slide-rule case all > >> by yourself !! > > > > Hmm, oughta dig that out one of these days. "Back when I was your > > age, calculators didn't need batteries, nor solar power neither!" > > > > Did require the log-trig tables, though. Nah! You just used graduate students (slave labor) to do that for you! From jdinnis at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 07:46:48 2008 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:46:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: Yeah, kids now are spoiled wimps. When I graduated from Purdue, we had to learn FORTRAN and all of the email systems were Unix. On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Randall wrote: >> Hey - I didn't name anyone - you came out of the slide-rule >> case all by yourself !! > > Hmm, oughta dig that out one of these days. "Back when I was your age, > calculators didn't need batteries, nor solar power neither!" > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 07:48:05 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:48:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40810290748q67a1a7edxfd964fbabb8b6454@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:46 AM, John Innis wrote: > Yeah, kids now are spoiled wimps. When I graduated from Purdue, we > had to learn FORTRAN and all of the email systems were Unix. > A change from that isn't spoiling, it's a decline in standards. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Oct 29 08:31:31 2008 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:31:31 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts Message-ID: <102920081531.5191.490881D3000903FA00001447220700164104040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net> FWIW, I read recently there is a (renewed) demand for COBOL programmers (us fogies are retiring). bs -- *************************************************************** Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net '67 Austin-Healey 3000 '56 Austin-Healey 100M *************************************************************** -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "David Scheidt" > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:46 AM, John Innis wrote: > > Yeah, kids now are spoiled wimps. When I graduated from Purdue, we > > had to learn FORTRAN and all of the email systems were Unix. > > > > A change from that isn't spoiling, it's a decline in standards. > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as bspidell at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Oct 29 10:11:31 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:11:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> Wow - UNIX ? E-mail ? Sounds pretty modern. When I was at Purdue we had an IBM 7094, and Fortran was translated onto tape by an IBM 1401 from the cards we punched. About the computing power of a desktop calculator with much better I/O, assuming you like cards or tape. No such thing as e-mail, no UNIX. If you were lucky, though, you might get to use one of the two IBM 029 card punches rather than the 026's. All of this had to be done in the sub-basement of the newly-opened (sophomore year) Math-Science Building. Ahhh, the good old days. When I returned for grad school a few years later (1973), there were remote terminals to directly input FORTRAN programs at a few campus locations. No trudging to the M-S Building to punch your cards. No e-mail then either, though. And I bought a TI SR-10 calculator ($119.95) just before going back to grad school - it could DO SQUARE ROOTS !! Karl > Yeah, kids now are spoiled wimps. When I graduated from Purdue, we > had to learn FORTRAN and all of the email systems were Unix. From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Oct 29 10:26:54 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:26:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> Message-ID: <89D3FD1CFB30442483ABF86104D7991D@OwnerPC> Karl, Karl, Karl.... boy you bring back some good memories... the only job I ever had and enjoyed was a mainframe computer operator... Started in the 'tab' section sorting cards in 1966.. later moved up to computer operator assistant (tape jockey) on a 1401 and graduated to a IBM-360...7 tape drives and get this... ready ?? 32k of memory... we ran a steel mill with it. had a keypunch section with 50 women punching cards. on three shifts. Our payroll was punched on about 30,000 cards every two weeks. One job at a time was the limit with all tape, no hard disk. Last system (1986) was two Burroughs 4900s dual processors and about 1 gig of hard drive space that took up a room 25 x 50 and took 6 tons of a/c to keep the units cool... disk were about 3' in diameter and spun up about 3600 rpm... we still had a tape library of about 5000 reels of backup of current files. Moved up to about 18 tape drives and could multiprocess... gawd I loved that machine. I was the only operator out of 15 that had ever maxxed out the mix...processors running at 100% capacity... had both processors totally loaded... usually took about 15 jobs at once to do that. The Burroughs main frame techies said it couldn't be done... My one claim to fame... AFA the calculators... my dad was a surveyor and we did all calculations (with trig tables) with a pencil... in the early 70's we bought a 4 function Craig handheld for 125.00. It cut our calc time by two thirds... and did it right !!!.. My watch can do what it did and more... but I miss those old mainframe days... reminissingly.. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" To: "John Innis" ; Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts > Wow - UNIX ? E-mail ? Sounds pretty modern. When I was at Purdue we had > an IBM 7094, and Fortran was translated onto tape by an IBM 1401 from the > cards we punched. About the computing power of a desktop calculator with > much better I/O, assuming you like cards or tape. No such thing as > e-mail, no UNIX. If you were lucky, though, you might get to use one of > the two IBM 029 card punches rather than the 026's. All of this had to be > done in the sub-basement of the newly-opened (sophomore year) Math-Science > Building. Ahhh, the good old days. > > When I returned for grad school a few years later (1973), there were > remote terminals to directly input FORTRAN programs at a few campus > locations. No trudging to the M-S Building to punch your cards. No > e-mail then either, though. And I bought a TI SR-10 calculator ($119.95) > just before going back to grad school - it could DO SQUARE ROOTS !! > > Karl > > > >> Yeah, kids now are spoiled wimps. When I graduated from Purdue, we >> had to learn FORTRAN and all of the email systems were Unix. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From mikey at b2systems.com Wed Oct 29 10:41:50 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:41:50 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> Message-ID: <4908A05E.3040307@b2systems.com> And here I was thinking I was up with the current trends on computer technology because I had a brand new VMS machine delivered last week. Ok, so its one of them new ones running something called Alpha OpenVMS instead of the good ol VAX VMS but its still VMS. And you guys here are talking about UNIX and FORTRAN ??? gee, I am still on VMS and ADA and COBOL guess I am not as up to date as I thought I was. What next ? you want me to learn VAX C or something ? All joking/teasing aside, we really did get a new Alpha VMS machine delivered last week, they still sell them. We are replacing a VAX with the Alpha. I am proposing we make the old VAX a web server, hackers don't know how to get into a VAX or even what it is :) but I was told to forget that idea. And no the company I work for is not that far behind, we do have the new Itanium machines running VMS too, along with SUNs and lots of Linux and Windows, we just like VMS. mike Karl Vacek wrote: > Wow - UNIX ? E-mail ? Sounds pretty modern. When I was at Purdue we > had an IBM 7094, and Fortran was translated onto tape by an IBM 1401 > from the cards we punched. About the computing power of a desktop > calculator with much better I/O, assuming you like cards or tape. No > such thing as e-mail, no UNIX. If you were lucky, though, you might > get to use one of the two IBM 029 card punches rather than the 026's. > All of this had to be done in the sub-basement of the newly-opened > (sophomore year) Math-Science Building. Ahhh, the good old days. > > When I returned for grad school a few years later (1973), there were > remote terminals to directly input FORTRAN programs at a few campus > locations. No trudging to the M-S Building to punch your cards. No > e-mail then either, though. And I bought a TI SR-10 calculator > ($119.95) just before going back to grad school - it could DO SQUARE > ROOTS !! > > Karl > > > >> Yeah, kids now are spoiled wimps. When I graduated from Purdue, we >> had to learn FORTRAN and all of the email systems were Unix. > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Wed Oct 29 10:43:44 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:43:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> Message-ID: <4908A0D0.7090008@HorneSystemsTx.com> Ah, yes, the 029! We had two of them at the University of Texas Department of Chemical Engineering where I was the electronics tech from 1971 through 1979. At least once a week someone would come into my shop and say that the programming drum wasn't working correctly. Most of the time a previous user would remove the drum without retracting the star wheel arm, causing the star wheels to pop out and fall into the guts of the machine. I'd spend hours finding all of them. I still have a couple new, still in the box programming drums here somewhere, as well as my trusty card saw! Peace, Pat Thusly spake Karl Vacek: > Wow - UNIX ? E-mail ? Sounds pretty modern. When I was at Purdue we > had an IBM 7094, and Fortran was translated onto tape by an IBM 1401 > from the cards we punched. About the computing power of a desktop > calculator with much better I/O, assuming you like cards or tape. No > such thing as e-mail, no UNIX. If you were lucky, though, you might > get to use one of the two IBM 029 card punches rather than the 026's. > All of this had to be done in the sub-basement of the newly-opened > (sophomore year) Math-Science Building. Ahhh, the good old days. > > When I returned for grad school a few years later (1973), there were > remote terminals to directly input FORTRAN programs at a few campus > locations. No trudging to the M-S Building to punch your cards. No > e-mail then either, though. And I bought a TI SR-10 calculator > ($119.95) just before going back to grad school - it could DO SQUARE > ROOTS !! > > Karl > > > >> Yeah, kids now are spoiled wimps. When I graduated from Purdue, we >> had to learn FORTRAN and all of the email systems were Unix. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1752 - Release Date: 10/28/2008 10:04 AM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Wed Oct 29 10:52:15 2008 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:52:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl Vacek [mailto:kvacek at ameritech.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:12 AM > To: John Innis; shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and > garage lifts > > Wow - UNIX ? E-mail ? Sounds pretty modern. When I was at > Purdue we had an IBM 7094, and Fortran was translated onto > tape by an IBM 1401 from the cards we punched. About the > computing power of a desktop calculator with much better I/O, > assuming you like cards or tape. No such thing as e-mail, no > UNIX. If you were lucky, though, you might get to use one of > the two IBM > 029 card punches rather than the 026's. All of this had to > be done in the sub-basement of the newly-opened (sophomore > year) Math-Science Building. > Ahhh, the good old days. > > When I returned for grad school a few years later (1973), > there were remote terminals to directly input FORTRAN > programs at a few campus locations. No trudging to the M-S > Building to punch your cards. No e-mail then either, though. > And I bought a TI SR-10 calculator ($119.95) just before > going back to grad school - it could DO SQUARE ROOTS !! > > Karl > I suspect this will quickly digress into ... Computers? we had no such thing when I was going to school. But my roommate in grad school was Chuck Babbage kept messing with a contraption that he claimed would compute. I don't think he ever finished it while I was there and those darn metal filings got into everything! My roommate in undgraduate studies was Gottfried Leibniz. He claimed he was working on a computer too but we all thought that he just used it mostly as a pick up line... singed Some days I feel older than othters... Stuart. From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Oct 29 11:12:26 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:12:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <4908A05E.3040307@b2systems.com> Message-ID: VAX - that's one of those new minicomputers, isn't it ?? I overheard a couple of the guys who were standing between the 403 Lister and the [damn - I can't remember the number any more] Burster the other day talking about those. What will they think of next ??? > And here I was thinking I was up with the current trends on computer > technology because I had a brand new VMS machine delivered last week. Ok, > so its one of them new ones running something called Alpha OpenVMS instead > of the good ol VAX VMS but its still VMS. And you guys here are talking > about UNIX and FORTRAN ??? gee, I am still on VMS and ADA and COBOL guess > I am not as up to date as I thought I was. What next ? you want me to > learn VAX C or something ? From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Wed Oct 29 11:14:11 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:14:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79702194527@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Ahh, the memories... I still miss my VAX, VMS, and FORTRAN. I was the company FORTRAN Guru, I ended up helping all the other engineers figure out what was wrong with their programs. I too started keypunching (IBM 026) cards that were fed into a CDC that the school used. My senior year, they got some new fangled "time share terminals" but I never had time to learn them. First job was developing Finite Element Stress Analysis software, again using keypunch and a remote job entry system to a Univac computer located about a 1,000 miles away. Next job actually had hardcopy terminals that I could actually enter programs directly into the computer! Later, we finally got a VAX down the hall. A couple of us came in one weekend and strung cables from the terminal room to our desks so we could move the terminals to our office. Management was astounded! How dare we not walk down the hall 10 times a day to check our printouts!! Imagine the problems that would be created by having a terminal taking up all our desk space!! Good times. I finally threw away my last deck of cards (some FORTRAN utility subroutines I had developed) since I figured out that there wasn't anything around to read the cards with any more and nobody was interested in them as antiques. I do still have my slide rule however! Tim Mullen From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 29 11:17:15 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:17:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><4908A05E.3040307@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <4178874856184EFE838BB09F027DAA33@jdnet.deere.com> > VAX - that's one of those new minicomputers, isn't it ?? Indeed we got rid of everything else. Now it's just the VAX ma'am, just the VAX. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 29 11:34:12 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:34:12 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> Message-ID: <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> > No e-mail then either, though. You didn't hang out in the right places. The UNIX system with ARPANET access was over in the EE building. Some heated discussions as I recall, over the EE department having it instead of the Math dept. > If you were lucky, though, you might get to use one of the two > IBM 029 card punches rather than the 026's. Which were entertaining, because they had been modified to punch 026 code instead of 029 code. The basic numbers and letters were the same, but the special characters were different; making my 029 card decks from high school nearly useless. > When I returned for grad school a few years later (1973), there were > remote terminals to directly input FORTRAN programs at a few campus > locations. Ah yes, the Purdue Remote Online Computing SYstem, aka PROCSY. I spent many, many hours using it; that might have been better spent studying, sleeping, etc. Some things never change. Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Oct 29 12:00:47 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:00:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: > You didn't hang out in the right places. The UNIX system with ARPANET > access was over in the EE building. Some heated discussions as I recall, > over the EE department having it instead of the Math dept. But do you remember SUVON ? State Universities VOice Network. You could go to the Union and use one of the campus phones on the second floor (second from the aisle if I remember right) and by punching in a number or two, you had free long-distance. I always pictured FBI-type agents coming up and putting the arm on me ne day while I was calling from there. > Ah yes, the Purdue Remote Online Computing SYstem, aka PROCSY. I spent > many, many hours using it; that might have been better spent studying, > sleeping, etc. Ahhh, Purdue acronyms. I remember PUFFT for our undergrad FORTRAN programs - Purdue University Fast Fortran Translator. A subset of FORTRAN designed to compile faster on the 1401 because of the huge number of undergrad programs being compiled and recompiled day in and day out. ISTR there were a few functions we couldn't use, but otherwise it was pretty much standard FORTRAN out of the McCracken book. From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Oct 29 13:35:48 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:35:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: WOW! Its amazing how far afield this conversation has gone from garage floors and lifts! But, I guess that is what happens when a bunch of old farts start talking. And, as one of those farts, the calculator/slide rule discussion reminds me of something from my past. I was a freshman in college in 1970 (sorry, not Purdue) and my father was an appliance distributor. One of his lines was Remmington and they had one of the first electronic calculators on the market, the "Lektronic". (http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/lektronic.html) I am sure some of you will remember them. About the footprint of a current computer keyboard, minus the numeric keys, with the old LED display; the kind where the numbers were stacked one on top of each other. They orginally retailed at $625 each (god, what is that in today's dollars?) and he got stuck with a bunch of them when TI came out with the handlheld calculator a couple of years later. So, he came up with a plan to get rid of them: I put on a coat and tie and started hitting the office buildings near where we lived, selling them for $125 each. I'd get $25 for every one I sold. It sounded like a great plan, and I would have been able to sell a bunch except for one thing: the damn caluclators didn't have a floating decimal point back then. In fact, they didn't have decimal points at all. There was a little sliding indicator on the display that you were supposed to move left or right to indicate where your decimal was supposed to be. There was a tremendous amount of interest in these (I carried a retail ad shoing the $625 list price with me), but by 1972 no one wanted something without a decimal point. I didn't sell a one. _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ From mark at sccaprepared.com Wed Oct 29 14:29:22 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks Message-ID: Howdy, Anyone here used an air over hydraulic bottle jack like: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95553 ? I'm thinking about getting one for use with my hydraulic press, to eliminate the "pump a bunch" deal. When you use one, do you just press a button and the ram extends? Can the speed be controlled? Does it work some other way? Thanks! Mark From cak at dimebank.com Wed Oct 29 14:30:52 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:30:52 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <4908D60C.5050200@dimebank.com> Randall wrote: >> No e-mail then either, though. > > You didn't hang out in the right places. The UNIX system with ARPANET > access was over in the EE building. Some heated discussions as I recall, > over the EE department having it instead of the Math dept. Hmm. Not quite right. It's true that the EE department had an ARPANET IMP in one of the labs (it was the signal processing prof ... can't recall his name) but they balked at buying the interface required to connect it to a PDP-11, thinking they should build their own. That went on for two years until the ARPA folks decided that there was no point in having an IMP there if it wasn't connected. The CS department got an IMP in 1981 as part of the CSNET project, and that finally got Purdue onto the ARPANET (I was in charge of it.) >> When I returned for grad school a few years later (1973), there were >> remote terminals to directly input FORTRAN programs at a few campus >> locations. > > Ah yes, the Purdue Remote Online Computing SYstem, aka PROCSY. I spent > many, many hours using it; that might have been better spent studying, > sleeping, etc. First there was PROCSY, then there were VAXen that supplanted/replaced PROCSY but did much the same sort of remote job entry to the CDC 6000 machines. Ultimately, the PUCC folks decided that it was acceptable to have people do their computing directly on the VAXen! What a concept. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 29 14:58:23 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:58:23 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <4908D60C.5050200@dimebank.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <4908D60C.5050200@dimebank.com> Message-ID: <35104A5ED5324C7FBA75E2701A5AC010@jdnet.deere.com> > Hmm. Not quite right. It's true that the EE department had an ARPANET IMP > in one > of the labs (it was the signal processing prof ... can't recall his name) > but > they balked at buying the interface required to connect it to a PDP-11, > thinking > they should build their own. That could be, the access may have been by dialup. But I'm sure it existed; and I'm pretty sure it was the big 11/70 instead of one of the smaller 11/45, etc. systems. I'll ask George, next time I see him. > The CS department got an IMP in 1981 as part of the CSNET project, and > that > finally got Purdue onto the ARPANET (I was in charge of it.) Long after my time there. > First there was PROCSY, then there were VAXen that supplanted/replaced > PROCSY Was that what PIRATE ran on? I didn't realize the CS department had VAXen at that point. Must not have been too much later that they started buying DEC equipment tho, since it seemed to be all over when I went back for my sister's graduation. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 29 15:06:49 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:06:49 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> > with the old LED display; the kind > where the numbers were stacked one on top of each other. Not Light Emitting Diodes, but NIXIE tubes. Basically a neon light with 10 cathodes, each shaped like a different number. I was just reading an article the other day about experimenting with them. Actually the article was more about building a 200v logic-controlled power supply, but it started with a discussion of the tubes themselves. > I didn't sell a one. Shame you didn't hang on to them, I'll bet they'd sell now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390003344236 Randall From cak at dimebank.com Wed Oct 29 16:25:35 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:25:35 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <4908F0EF.3010601@dimebank.com> Randall wrote: >> with the old LED display; the kind >> where the numbers were stacked one on top of each other. > > Not Light Emitting Diodes, but NIXIE tubes. Basically a neon light with 10 > cathodes, each shaped like a different number. One of my most-prized possessions is a GPS-driven clock that uses Nixie tubes for the display :-) From bill at gingerich.us Wed Oct 29 19:00:24 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:00:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <4908F0EF.3010601@dimebank.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com><68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> <4908F0EF.3010601@dimebank.com> Message-ID: <247488A9F68F4030BBD23B5E7E3FBD33@shack2> My kids were shocked to learn that vinyl LP's had music on BOTH SIDES! BiilG OKC From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Oct 29 19:06:41 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: Wow. Are they really worth that much? > From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com > To: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:06:49 -0700 > > > > with the old LED display; the kind > > where the numbers were stacked one on top of each other. > > Not Light Emitting Diodes, but NIXIE tubes. Basically a neon light with 10 > cathodes, each shaped like a different number. > > I was just reading an article the other day about experimenting with them. > Actually the article was more about building a 200v logic-controlled power > supply, but it started with a discussion of the tubes themselves. > > > I didn't sell a one. > > Shame you didn't hang on to them, I'll bet they'd sell now. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390003344236 > > Randall > _________________________________________________________________ Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008 From racertod at racertodd.com Wed Oct 29 19:24:22 2008 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:24:22 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20081029192242.00bc8910@mail.blarg.net> Jim wrote: >They orginally retailed at $625 each (god, what is that in today's dollars?) $2,449.49 according to the Cost of Living Calculator at: http://www.aier.org/research/worksheets-and-tools/cost-of-living-calculator Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 268,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 183,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- Gone to a new home :( http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Oct 29 19:33:10 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:33:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com><68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com><4908F0EF.3010601@dimebank.com> <247488A9F68F4030BBD23B5E7E3FBD33@shack2> Message-ID: <5CA270647EEE4BF5862A983C92AEAD39@KARL> Maybe they'd be more comfortable with 78's then - a large proportion of them were one-sided Karl > My kids were shocked to learn that vinyl LP's had music on BOTH SIDES! > > BiilG > OKC From bill at gingerich.us Wed Oct 29 20:46:18 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:46:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <5CA270647EEE4BF5862A983C92AEAD39@KARL> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com><68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com><4908F0EF.3010601@dimebank.com> <247488A9F68F4030BBD23B5E7E3FBD33@shack2> <5CA270647EEE4BF5862A983C92AEAD39@KARL> Message-ID: <51AB9C13C96D43BEB2BB5B568531BF1E@shack2> I have a bunch of 78's that I still play on my Victrola. Most are double sided, but I have a few single sided ones. And I have an adapter that allows me to plug my crystal set or other low power radio into the Victrols and hear them through the bigger speaker. What fidelity! BillG -----Original Message----- From: Karl Vacek [mailto:kvacek at ameritech.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:33 PM To: Bill Gingerich; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts Maybe they'd be more comfortable with 78's then - a large proportion of them were one-sided Karl > My kids were shocked to learn that vinyl LP's had music on BOTH SIDES! > > BiilG > OKC From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Oct 29 22:28:14 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:28:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081030042814.GKAG26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Wow. Are they really worth that much? Apparently so. At least with enough hype. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270291491875 Randall From jdrush at enter.net Tue Oct 28 23:43:29 2008 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:43:29 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <4908A05E.3040307@b2systems.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <4908A05E.3040307@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <49080611.6020504@enter.net> Careful there Mike, mjb will be asking you to donate the old one to run this list . . . Jon Mike Rambour wrote: > All joking/teasing aside, we really did get a new Alpha VMS machine > delivered last week, they still sell them. We are replacing a VAX with > the Alpha. I am proposing we make the old VAX a web server, hackers > don't know how to get into a VAX or even what it is :) but I was told > to forget that idea. And no the company I work for is not that far > behind, we do have the new Itanium machines running VMS too, along with > SUNs and lots of Linux and Windows, we just like VMS. From jdrush at enter.net Tue Oct 28 23:45:47 2008 From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:45:47 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <4908069B.5080309@enter.net> Google steampunk and nixie to see why they are still so valuable. Jon Jim Stone wrote: > Wow. Are they really worth that much? From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Oct 30 07:02:13 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:02:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com><68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> <4908069B.5080309@enter.net> Message-ID: Thanks - that site led me to this. Another way to fritter away time instead of working ;-) http://www.oldchristmaslights.com/ There's loads of info on the history of bubble lights, identification charts for GE Mazda bulbs for series-wired light sets, etc., etc. Lots of useless but fascinating info there. Karl > Google steampunk and nixie to see why they are still so valuable. > > Jon From parkanzky at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 07:42:01 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:42:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> <4908069B.5080309@enter.net> Message-ID: You guys had me shopping for a Nixie clock for my desk at work when I came across this: http://www.cathodecorner.com/scra/index.html Way cool, but way out of my novelty-clock budget... -Paul On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Karl Vacek wrote: > Thanks - that site led me to this. Another way to fritter away time > instead of working ;-) > > http://www.oldchristmaslights.com/ > > There's loads of info on the history of bubble lights, identification > charts for GE Mazda bulbs for series-wired light sets, etc., etc. Lots of > useless but fascinating info there. > > Karl > > > Google steampunk and nixie to see why they are still so valuable. >> >> Jon >> > ** From arvidj at visi.com Thu Oct 30 08:00:09 2008 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:00:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks References: Message-ID: <82594A3BBC6846A18A5DAC037767E808@behavioral.com> I bought that one for exactly that reason and would never go back. The "stroke" seems to be small enough that you can control it with some degree of accuracy. And if nothing else it will "get you close with very little effort" and then you can use the hand pump for the fine detail work. Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Andy" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks > Howdy, > > Anyone here used an air over hydraulic bottle jack like: > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95553 > > ? > > I'm thinking about getting one for use with my hydraulic press, to > eliminate the "pump a bunch" deal. When you use one, do you just press a > button and the ram extends? Can the speed be controlled? Does it work > some other way? > > Thanks! > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as arvidj at visi.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Oct 30 08:00:26 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:00:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Antique Electronics In-Reply-To: References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> <4908069B.5080309@enter.net> Message-ID: <4909CC0A.5020504@xxiii.com> Paul Parkanzky wrote: > You guys had me shopping for a Nixie clock for my desk at work when I came > across this: > http://www.cathodecorner.com/scra/index.html Some of ya' might like this one... We have a local shop that builds replicas of these funky old TVs Pic is worth 1K: http://www.cbelec.com/ -Wayne From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Thu Oct 30 08:30:11 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick question on garage floors and garage lifts In-Reply-To: <247488A9F68F4030BBD23B5E7E3FBD33@shack2> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL><20081029041503.VPN26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL><1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com><68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com><4908F0EF.3010601@dimebank.com> <247488A9F68F4030BBD23B5E7E3FBD33@shack2> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79702194895@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Bill Gingerich wrote: > > My kids were shocked to learn that vinyl LP's had music on BOTH SIDES! My son (about 12 at the time) was shocked the first time I had my portable Victrola (in a case like a small suitcase) out. I had it in the front yard, opened it up, cranked it up, and played a record. Imagine - no batteries, no electrical cord, and it was loud. :) Tim Mullen From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Oct 30 08:52:23 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: <82594A3BBC6846A18A5DAC037767E808@behavioral.com> References: <82594A3BBC6846A18A5DAC037767E808@behavioral.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > I bought that one for exactly that reason and would never go back. The > "stroke" seems to be small enough that you can control it with some > degree of accuracy. And if nothing else it will "get you close with very > little effort" and then you can use the hand pump for the fine detail > work. Thanks! I was wondering if the VMS guys would ever get back around to talking about shop stuff... :-) Harbor Freight had these on sale a while back and I nearly bought one. Of course now I'm so cheap I'll have to wait for another sale... :-) Is there an easy way to plumb in a pressure guage and then use that to figure out how much pressure you're applying? Mark From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Thu Oct 30 09:39:28 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:39:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Antique Electronics In-Reply-To: <4909CC0A.5020504@xxiii.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> <4908069B.5080309@enter.net> <4909CC0A.5020504@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <4909E340.6040308@HorneSystemsTx.com> Cool clock, wish I could afford it! Back in the late 60's I was designing remote control systems for gas pumps at convenience stores - long before they existed. Te looked at using a CRT based display from IEEE, I believe that would put numbers up on a <2" screen, but it was too expensive for the project. We went with 7-segment LED displays instead. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Wayne: > Paul Parkanzky wrote: >> You guys had me shopping for a Nixie clock for my desk at work when I >> came >> across this: >> http://www.cathodecorner.com/scra/index.html > > Some of ya' might like this one... We have a local shop that builds > replicas of these funky old TVs > > Pic is worth 1K: > http://www.cbelec.com/ > > -Wayne > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1756 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 7:59 AM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Thu Oct 30 09:52:39 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:52:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Antique Electronics In-Reply-To: <4909E340.6040308@HorneSystemsTx.com> References: <7CB28E5FB4A741D5A7C5CAFA5CCA565A@KARL> <8D42229328BE405D84EE100E1AC5C30F@KARL> <1F55BF7DAF7141F19F4114350908D8D8@jdnet.deere.com> <68657947A8BA4DA68565815E2387AECA@jdnet.deere.com> <4908069B.5080309@enter.net> <4909CC0A.5020504@xxiii.com> <4909E340.6040308@HorneSystemsTx.com> Message-ID: <4909E657.4070605@HorneSystemsTx.com> Oops, that should have been IEE. They made the early projection displays using light bulbs, film and lenses to project the image onto the frosted front of the module. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Pat: > Cool clock, wish I could afford it! > > Back in the late 60's I was designing remote control systems for gas > pumps at convenience stores - long before they existed. Te looked at > using a CRT based display from IEEE, I believe that would put numbers > up on a <2" screen, but it was too expensive for the project. We went > with 7-segment LED displays instead. > > Peace, > Pat > > > Thusly spake Wayne: >> Paul Parkanzky wrote: >>> You guys had me shopping for a Nixie clock for my desk at work when >>> I came >>> across this: >>> http://www.cathodecorner.com/scra/index.html >> >> Some of ya' might like this one... We have a local shop that builds >> replicas of these funky old TVs >> >> Pic is worth 1K: >> http://www.cbelec.com/ >> >> -Wayne >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus >> Database: 270.8.5/1756 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 7:59 AM >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1756 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 7:59 AM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From rbeels at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 11:35:20 2008 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:35:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081030143211.024689b8@yahoo.com> I got the same (type) jack for the same purpose last year. Never going back to the non-air pump... :-) Basically hold down the trigger until you get kinda close and then 'bump' the trigger to get close. Switch to the hand pump to do the actual 'mating' of the ram to the part and the you can either hand pump the job or switch back to the trigger and At 10/29/2008 at 17:29, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Mark Andy's keyboard and said: >Howdy, > >Anyone here used an air over hydraulic bottle jack like: > >http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95553 > >? > >I'm thinking about getting one for use with my hydraulic press, to >eliminate the "pump a bunch" deal. When you use one, do you just >press a button and the ram extends? Can the speed be >controlled? Does it work some other way? Cheers! From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Oct 30 14:41:28 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:41:28 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20081030143211.024689b8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081030204128.UAKL11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> > I got the same (type) jack for the same purpose last year. So, what happens when what you are pressing on breaks loose ? Does the ram then extend all the way as the air expands ? Also, I assume that silver cylinder starts out full of hydraulic fluid, which gets displaced by the air. How does it get refilled for the next time? Randall From strovato at optonline.net Thu Oct 30 14:12:53 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:12:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: <20081030204128.UAKL11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20081030143211.024689b8@yahoo.com> <20081030204128.UAKL11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <0K9K005MELLLZL80@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Randall, I don't think it works like that. I have an air over hydraulic floor jack, and when I was shopping for it, I was thinking the way you are. But the way it works is that there is a sort of a pump that is run by air, but it pumps hydraulic fluid. It basically provides two ways to pump the hydraulic fluid, the manual handle and the air motor driven hydraulic pump. One effect of this is that in use, it makes an air tool sort of noise. Not the sort of silent glide you would get if the air was directly raising the jack. Now, I'm not familiar with the particular Harbor Freight jack mentioned here. If you go to the page linked earlier, and look at the manual, you can see the parts diagram. I get the impression that it does work the same way my floor jack does. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 05:41 PM 10/30/2008, Randall wrote: > > I got the same (type) jack for the same purpose last year. > >So, what happens when what you are pressing on breaks loose ? Does the ram >then extend all the way as the air expands ? > >Also, I assume that silver cylinder starts out full of hydraulic fluid, >which gets displaced by the air. How does it get refilled for the next >time? From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Oct 30 14:24:09 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks References: <6.2.5.6.2.20081030143211.024689b8@yahoo.com><20081030204128.UAKL11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> <0K9K005MELLLZL80@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Zackly how most air-powered pumps work. Paint, oil, grease, etc. piston pumps work that way. The air and fluid circuits are completely divorced - a leak in one will typically leak to the outside, not into the other side of the pump. The pressure is simply developed by the ratio between the air and fluid piston sizes, and the pumps are usually rated by their pressure ratio. For example, a 10:1 pump will produce 1,000 PSI fluid pressure with a 100 PSI air supply (less losses of course). Karl > I don't think it works like that. I have an air over hydraulic floor > jack, and when I was shopping for it, I was thinking the way you are. But > the way it works is that there is a sort of a pump that is run by air, but > it pumps hydraulic fluid. From arvidj at visi.com Thu Oct 30 14:37:01 2008 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:37:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks References: <20081030204128.UAKL11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <3AA00DDFADC3423D92C0F7D486CFF054@behavioral.com> Actually it seems like the air piston assembly just "pumps" the original hydraulic pump plunger up and down. So the air enters the cylinder and pushes down on the original plunger [or something close to the original plunger] until the air piston reaches a relief port. Then the air piston retracts and then takes another shot at the hydraulic plunger. It really is just "doing the pumping" for you. It sounds like a very slow jack hammer when it works. Hope that makes some sense, Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" To: Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks >> I got the same (type) jack for the same purpose last year. > > So, what happens when what you are pressing on breaks loose ? Does the > ram > then extend all the way as the air expands ? > > Also, I assume that silver cylinder starts out full of hydraulic fluid, > which gets displaced by the air. How does it get refilled for the next > time? > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as arvidj at visi.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Oct 30 14:46:32 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:46:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks References: <20081030204128.UAKL11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> <3AA00DDFADC3423D92C0F7D486CFF054@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <6F79734E3DFD4FF1A0F1C6EAEBE1654E@KARL> As unsophisticated as you'd expect from Horrible Freight. Usually the pistons are coaxial, but the photo shows that it's as you describe. They just added an air cylinder to a manual jack. In typical air over fluid (not literally, it's just what they're called), piston pumps, the air cylinder is double-acting. And they DO soundlike a slow jack hammer -- they're very similar in operation. Valving triggered by the piston reaching either end of the stroke flips the supply from one side of the cylinder to the other, ditto (but reverse) for the exhaust. This one may be simpler, with a return spring for the air piston. Karl > Actually it seems like the air piston assembly just "pumps" the original > hydraulic pump plunger up and down. So the air enters the cylinder and > pushes down on the original plunger [or something close to the original > plunger] until the air piston reaches a relief port. Then the air piston > retracts and then takes another shot at the hydraulic plunger. It really > is just "doing the pumping" for you. It sounds like a very slow jack > hammer when it works. > > Hope that makes some sense, > Arvid From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 17:31:48 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:31:48 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d40810301731i79b574cev6766737424998dc7@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Anyone here used an air over hydraulic bottle jack like: > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95553 > > ? > > I'm thinking about getting one for use with my hydraulic press, to eliminate > the "pump a bunch" deal. When you use one, do you just press a button and > the ram extends? Can the speed be controlled? Does it work some other way? Haven't used one from HF, but I've used lots of air-over-hydraulic jacks, and they're great. They don't usually work fast enough to have control problems, but on a press, you'll probably want to do the actual hard part of the pressing with the hand pump. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Oct 31 04:55:54 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:55:54 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: <3AA00DDFADC3423D92C0F7D486CFF054@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <20081031105554.OFUR26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Hope that makes some sense, It does. Thanks to all who replied. Now that I'm moving towards having compressed air available all the time (not just after waiting for the compressor to build pressure), I may look into one of those jacks for the press as well. Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Oct 31 06:15:02 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 06:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: <20081031105554.OFUR26168.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <448130.15025.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you have a compressor with a decent-size tank, it should be able to hold pressure for a week or so. You would just need to close the main shutoff valve at the tank to keep leaks in your plumbing from running it down. Doug --- Randall wrote: > > Hope that makes some sense, > > It does. > > Thanks to all who replied. Now that I'm moving > towards having compressed > air available all the time (not just after waiting > for the compressor to > build pressure), I may look into one of those jacks > for the press as well. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Oct 31 08:54:49 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:54:49 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: <448130.15025.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081031145449.ONDM11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> > If you have a compressor with a decent-size tank, it should > be able to hold pressure for a week or so. No argument from me; but my current 20 gallon tank leaks down in a matter of minutes. Yes, I should replace it, and the replacement is sitting in the backyard, waiting for me to bolt it to the wall (for earthquake safety), and run power and air lines to it. Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Oct 31 12:55:56 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] air over hydraulic bottle jacks In-Reply-To: <20081031145449.ONDM11335.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <96576.88787.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> When I first got my compressor, I noticed that the tank would run down, and I realized that the check valve (located where the line from the pump entered the tank) was not working well. I took it apart and found a tiny bit of junk that was keeping the valve from seating. After i removed it, the compressor worked worked perfectly. If you use the compressor for occasional small jobs it would be very wasteful to have to completely pump up the tank every time. Doug --- Randall wrote: > > If you have a compressor with a decent-size tank, > it should > > be able to hold pressure for a week or so. > > No argument from me; but my current 20 gallon tank > leaks down in a matter of > minutes. Yes, I should replace it, and the > replacement is sitting in the > backyard, waiting for me to bolt it to the wall (for > earthquake safety), and > run power and air lines to it. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive