From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sun Nov 2 17:34:38 2008 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:34:38 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Log rack out of chain link top rail and cinder blocks Message-ID: <6CA1C52D21F64BB48EE94BE0A199F685@B50SS> Hi all, Maybe it was two years ago now that I was taking out a dog run from a previous owner and was thinking about making a log rack for firewood out of the fence pipe. I posted a message about joining chain link fence top rail to build a firewood rack and somebody here suggest the aluminum 90 degree elbows that I did not even know existed. Well I did that and built an 8'L x 4'H x 2'D 3-rail log rack that sits on a couple 15" cinder blocks. It really only cost the price of the 90 degree elbows (thank you who ever suggested it) which was about $15. One of our fireplaces will accept 4' logs, and if you are cutting your own wood, it is easier to leave them longer, but if you buy wood, it comes in all lengths. The only problem I had with rack was that when mixing long and short logs, the short ones could fall through without careful stacking, so I thought about adding leftover chain link so that the short logs and the kindling would not fall through. Lengthwise view: http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/log_rack/DSCN5213.JPG View of the top: http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/log_rack/DSCN5214.JPG View of where it sits on the blocks: http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/log_rack/DSCN5215.JPG End view: http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/log_rack/DSCN5216.JPG View demonstrating how small logs don't fall through: http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shook/log_rack/DSCN5217.JPG It was almost free, easy to build, has great capacity, is much stronger than it needs to be and should last forever. FWIW best, doug From mark at sccaprepared.com Sun Nov 2 19:18:47 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:18:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw Message-ID: Howdy, Ok, following my normal practice, I bought a cheapie portable bandsaw from HF for $70 to see how it worked, if I liked it, and if I used it much. It worked well (while it worked), I liked it, and I used it pretty often. Of course, its from HF so the other night the fact that the blade doesn't hit the roller bearings finally meant the blade wore through the case enough to toss the blade and chew up the drive wheels. So now I'm wondering which 'real' portable bandsaw I should get. Any advice? I'm leaning toward the Milwaukee mostly by default. One reviewer I saw liked the DeWalt, but I've seen spotty quality on some of my DeWalt stuff and all the Milwaukee things have been bulletproof. Anyway... Recommendations or things you don't like about one of these in particular? Thanks! Mark From arvidj at visi.com Sun Nov 2 19:47:01 2008 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:47:01 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw References: Message-ID: Sounds stupid but "another HF". I have one and other than I took it apart and made sure that it had real grease in it rather than the stuff that was in there that had turned quite hard - and the fact that it makes a lot of noise - it seems to have held up quite well. I follow their advice and relieve the blade tension when I am not using it, but other than that I've had good luck with it. Given that the Milwaukee is $300 at NorthernTool I an planning on going thru three more HF saws if this one ever gives out. I will qualify the recommendation - if you want to actually call it that - with a "I don't use it every day" and "I bought some non-HF blades to put in it" disclaimer. Arvid > Ok, following my normal practice, I bought a cheapie portable bandsaw from > HF for $70 to see how it worked, if I liked it, and if I used it much. > > It worked well (while it worked), I liked it, and I used it pretty often. > > Of course, its from HF so the other night the fact that the blade doesn't > hit the roller bearings finally meant the blade wore through the case > enough to toss the blade and chew up the drive wheels. So now I'm > wondering which 'real' portable bandsaw I should get. > > Any advice? I'm leaning toward the Milwaukee mostly by default. One > reviewer I saw liked the DeWalt, but I've seen spotty quality on some of > my DeWalt stuff and all the Milwaukee things have been bulletproof. > > Anyway... Recommendations or things you don't like about one of these in > particular? > > Thanks! > > Mark From cavanadd at verizon.net Sun Nov 2 20:23:20 2008 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:23:20 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490E6EA8.5090508@verizon.net> Are you talking about a porta-band portable metal cutting bandsaw, or a small (maybe three wheel) woodworking bandsaw? If the former, I have one of the H.F. models, too. It works OK, and I have spare Milwaukee blades for it. I don't use it very much; I use my stationary Chinese bandsaw almost all the time, and other than the motor burning out (by leaving it on overnight) it works fine, too. If I was going to use one full time like for a welding shop or other business I would probably get a Milwaukee or Makita. If the latter (woodworking bandsaw), I would go over to the Sawmill Creek woodworking forum and either search the archives or ask around. Dave C Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Ok, following my normal practice, I bought a cheapie portable bandsaw > from HF for $70 to see how it worked, if I liked it, and if I used it much. > > It worked well (while it worked), I liked it, and I used it pretty often. > > Of course, its from HF so the other night the fact that the blade > doesn't hit the roller bearings finally meant the blade wore through the > case enough to toss the blade and chew up the drive wheels. So now I'm > wondering which 'real' portable bandsaw I should get. > > Any advice? I'm leaning toward the Milwaukee mostly by default. One > reviewer I saw liked the DeWalt, but I've seen spotty quality on some of > my DeWalt stuff and all the Milwaukee things have been bulletproof. > > Anyway... Recommendations or things you don't like about one of these in > particular? > > Thanks! > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From mark at sccaprepared.com Sun Nov 2 21:27:14 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:27:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw In-Reply-To: <490E6EA8.5090508@verizon.net> References: <490E6EA8.5090508@verizon.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sun, 2 Nov 2008, David C. wrote: > Are you talking about a porta-band portable metal cutting bandsaw, or a small > (maybe three wheel) woodworking bandsaw? > > If the former, I have one of the H.F. models, too. It works OK, and I have > spare Milwaukee blades for it. I don't use it very much; I use my stationary > Chinese bandsaw almost all the time, and other than the motor burning out (by > leaving it on overnight) it works fine, too. If I was going to use one full > time like for a welding shop or other business I would probably get a > Milwaukee or Makita. I have the portable metal cutting one... I.e.: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?function=Search I took it apart more tonight. I'm not impressed... The plastic/rubber drive wheels don't have bearings. Its just the molded plastic of the wheel riding on a steel sleeve with some crappy grease in there. The primary issue with mine didn't seem to be that though... It was that the blade guide bearing at the top had enough play that it could move up enough to let the blade fall past it. All of the blade guide bearings had play... I played with some small washers and think I could shim the bearings into place. That plus adding a tapped hole in the housing to put a set screw type of thing to give the blade a steel surface to ride on instead of the AL casting might have helped. Of course, it wouldn't have done anything about the lack of bearings on the drive wheels. Anyway, I'll probably call HF tomorrow and see what parts would cost, but I'm going to have a hard time spending much more money on this thing or another one like it. Mark From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Mon Nov 3 06:41:25 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 07:41:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490EFF85.2060102@HorneSystemsTx.com> Mark, I read all the replies and agree with them. I just wanted to comment on a partially off topic statement you made initially. I've used Milwaukee stuff off and on for years. I found two of their tools that didn't work as well as other brands. Their battery powered 18 volt drills, and their bottom of the line Sawzall. Neither of them live up to the Milwaukee name. The drills don't run long on the batteries, the batteries die rather fast, and the drills are much heavier than other 18 Volt drills. As for the Sawzall, when you put it under heavy load, such as cutting through a 4x4, the blade pops out. Turns out that the blade retainer that used to be a pin is now a ball and the blade can slip by it. I've been using DeWalt stuff for over 15 years and love it. All my stuff is at least 8 years old, which was before their move to manufacture everything off shore. I can't vouch for any of the newer stuff. I'd like to hear from anyone who has experience with their newer stuff. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Mark Andy: > Howdy, > > Ok, following my normal practice, I bought a cheapie portable bandsaw > from HF for $70 to see how it worked, if I liked it, and if I used it > much. > > It worked well (while it worked), I liked it, and I used it pretty often. > > Of course, its from HF so the other night the fact that the blade > doesn't hit the roller bearings finally meant the blade wore through > the case enough to toss the blade and chew up the drive wheels. So > now I'm wondering which 'real' portable bandsaw I should get. > > Any advice? I'm leaning toward the Milwaukee mostly by default. One > reviewer I saw liked the DeWalt, but I've seen spotty quality on some > of my DeWalt stuff and all the Milwaukee things have been bulletproof. > > Anyway... Recommendations or things you don't like about one of these > in particular? > > Thanks! > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1763 - Release Date: 11/2/2008 7:08 PM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Nov 3 12:12:26 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:12:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw In-Reply-To: <490EFF85.2060102@HorneSystemsTx.com> References: <490EFF85.2060102@HorneSystemsTx.com> Message-ID: Howdy, Just an update on this... On a lark I called HF to see what replacement parts for everything I saw that was busted would cost me. Turns out that I could get: * left & right blade guide (just the casting, if the parts diagram is right, not the bearings) * four of the bearing holder screws for the blade guides * a new frame / case * a pair of the rubber drive wheels all for $30. It wouldn't have been quite as much, except they loctite the screws holding the bearings into the blade guide castings, and I broke off a screw with an impact screw driver. I really only needed one of the blade guides & one screw, but figured it was cheap insurance to get a few extra screws and the other blade guide (I can salvage the one I have, but I'll need to drill it out, retap, etc.) Only downside was that some of the parts are coming from China, so they'll take 8 weeks to get here. She did say that I had the option to have them pull the parts off a returned model if one existed if I wanted, so they'd get here sooner. I told them to go ahead with that if it was possible. Anyway, I haven't gotten the parts yet, but it was a pleasent enough experience. Mark (Also, I looked at the parts list for the Milwaukee portable... It seems to use the same plastic to steel "bearing" setup for the drive wheels as the HF saw uses.) From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 15:43:25 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:43:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw In-Reply-To: References: <490EFF85.2060102@HorneSystemsTx.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811031443i2e87bef9s738c8bc98c3e5d96@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Mark Andy wrote: > > > (Also, I looked at the parts list for the Milwaukee portable... It seems to > use the same plastic to steel "bearing" setup for the drive wheels as the HF > saw uses.) > That may not be as bad as you seem to think. There are lots of plastics that are quiet suited for use as plain bearings, even under fairly substantial load. They do great things in dirty environments, where they're run with no lubrication. Are they solid of one piece of plastic, or they a two piece assembly, with an inner core, and an outer harder bit? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Nov 3 17:59:16 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 19:59:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] recommend a portable bandsaw In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40811031443i2e87bef9s738c8bc98c3e5d96@mail.gmail.com> References: <490EFF85.2060102@HorneSystemsTx.com> <2400a5d40811031443i2e87bef9s738c8bc98c3e5d96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, David Scheidt wrote: >> (Also, I looked at the parts list for the Milwaukee portable... It seems to >> use the same plastic to steel "bearing" setup for the drive wheels as the HF >> saw uses.) >> > > That may not be as bad as you seem to think. There are lots of > plastics that are quiet suited for use as plain bearings, even under > fairly substantial load. They do great things in dirty environments, > where they're run with no lubrication. Are they solid of one piece of > plastic, or they a two piece assembly, with an inner core, and an > outer harder bit? I don't know about the Milwaukee ones, but the HF ones have a steel shaft/stud sticking out, with what seems to be a steel inner sleeve which is a slip fit on the stud, with the drive wheels (plastic) a slip fit on the steel sleeve. Mark From wmgilroy at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 01:07:40 2008 From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (William M. Gilroy) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 00:07:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair Message-ID: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> My small single stage Campbell Hausfeld stopped working tonight just as I was going to sand down a shelf for my wife. I apply power to the compressor and nothing happens. Turn it off and back on at the pressure/on/off switch and nothing. Not a sound. I figure the pressure switch is broken but I was wondering if anyone has an insight in troubleshooting this thing. If not I will have a whack at it tomorrow night. Thanks, Bill From parkanzky at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 08:01:37 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 10:01:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair In-Reply-To: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> References: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is there a thermal breaker on the back of the motor that might need reset? Otherwise, you can hardwire the compressor and bypass the pressure switch to see if the motor will turn. -Paul On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 3:07 AM, William M. Gilroy wrote: > My small single stage Campbell Hausfeld stopped working tonight just as > I was going to sand down a shelf for my wife. I apply power to the > compressor and nothing happens. Turn it off and back on at the > pressure/on/off switch and nothing. Not a sound. I figure the pressure > switch is broken but I was wondering if anyone has an insight in > troubleshooting this thing. If not I will have a whack at it tomorrow > night. > > Thanks, > > Bill From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Nov 4 08:15:40 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:15:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081104151540.VCHL479.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> > Is there a thermal breaker on the back of the motor that > might need reset? > Otherwise, you can hardwire the compressor and bypass the > pressure switch to see if the motor will turn. FWIW, the pressure switch (which doubles as the on/off control) on my Sanborn compressor had a second pair of contacts that still worked after the first pair quit working. Since you get no sound at all (and I presume the outlet is still working), you should be able to trace through the compressors wiring with a test light or ohmmeter and find the open. Randall From battmain at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 09:28:53 2008 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:28:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair References: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71036.40493.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Some motors also have a cct breaker in the case. (in addition to the pressure switch located away from the actual motor. ) Assume you've also checked the obvious and the cct is capable of handling the compressor and the cct breaker for the outlet hasn't tripped. (even if you have been using that outlet before. Hint-Try the washing machine 30amp cct. ) Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: William M. Gilroy To: Shop Talk Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 3:07:40 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair My small single stage Campbell Hausfeld stopped working tonight just as I was going to sand down a shelf for my wife. I apply power to the compressor and nothing happens. Turn it off and back on at the pressure/on/off switch and nothing. Not a sound. I figure the pressure switch is broken but I was wondering if anyone has an insight in troubleshooting this thing. If not I will have a whack at it tomorrow night. Thanks, Bill _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as battmain at yahoo.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Nov 4 11:35:05 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:35:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair In-Reply-To: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> References: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081104133321.01d42b08@cox.net> At 03:07 AM 11/4/2008, William M. Gilroy wrote: >My small single stage Campbell Hausfeld stopped working.... >I apply power to the compressor and nothing happens. Turn it off and >back on at the pressure/on/off switch and nothing. Not a sound. I figure the >pressure switch is broken but I was wondering if anyone has an insight in >troubleshooting this thing. Bill, I know this sounds stupid, but it's happened to me. What's the chances that you actually have air in the tank? Consiquently, it doesn't need any power. Try to bleed off the tank, and see what happens. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 11:57:15 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:57:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20081104133321.01d42b08@cox.net> References: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20081104133321.01d42b08@cox.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811041057t17a0640emf614f06c49fca00a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:35 PM, John T. Blair wrote: > At 03:07 AM 11/4/2008, William M. Gilroy wrote: > >>My small single stage Campbell Hausfeld stopped working.... > >>I apply power to the compressor and nothing happens. Turn it off and >>back on at the pressure/on/off switch and nothing. Not a sound. I figure >> the >>pressure switch is broken but I was wondering if anyone has an insight in >>troubleshooting this thing. > > Bill, > > I know this sounds stupid, but it's happened to me. What's the chances that > you actually have air in the tank? Consiquently, it doesn't need any power. > Try to bleed off the tank, and see what happens. The one that gets me from time to time is the GFCI being tripped..... -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From battmain at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 21:33:44 2008 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:33:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair References: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.1.20081104133321.01d42b08@cox.net> <2400a5d40811041057t17a0640emf614f06c49fca00a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <720318.61263.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> (Chuckle) ...at the other end of the house. :) Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: David Scheidt (snip) The one that gets me from time to time is the GFCI being tripped..... From cak at dimebank.com Wed Nov 5 20:51:53 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:51:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? Message-ID: <200811060351.mA63prcf027657@moose.dimebank.com> We live in a 1927 California Craftsman that has a central forced air furnace ... that must have been some sort of retrofit, I'm guessing, but maybe not (most houses in that period were built with in-floor gas heaters). The furnace looks to have been built in the 60s, and the ducts could easily be older. One of these days we'll have to replace the furnace, and I'm not looking forward to that. A couple of rooms (including the master bath) were added after the fact, and have no heat at all - they're too far from the furnace. The living room has one duct outlet, but it's not very effective. We have electric space heaters in a couple of places and they work, but ... well, the master bath is damned cold in the morning, and the tub is miserable for the first person to shower. I'd like to do something about that. If the floor wasn't tile, I'd think about putting electric resistance mat underneath, but I really don't want to tear out the tile. I was wondering if it might be possible to plumb hydronic heat into the existing subfloor (2x8 joists on 16)? Not really the way it's normally done, I know, and perhaps prohibitively expensive. I guess there are also hydronic baseboard units... has anyone here gone down this path? From wmgilroy at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 01:05:07 2008 From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (William M. Gilroy) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 00:05:07 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Compressor repair In-Reply-To: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> References: <491002CC.5010908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4912A533.1010903@gmail.com> I got some time to go take a look at my problem. When it failed 2 days ago I check that I had power at the outlet and that the reset switch on the motor was not tripped. Since my compressor is only 30 gallon I disconnected it from the piping and pull it out to work on the unit. I plugged it in before I started working on it and it started right up. I look around a bit and found the source of the problem. I am short on outlets in my garage, so sometimes I have to un-plug one thing and plug in another. When my compressor had stopped it turns out that I had unplugged the compressor, but I had plugged in my bench grinder! Twice! What dopey mistake. Bill William M. Gilroy wrote: > My small single stage Campbell Hausfeld stopped working tonight just as > I was going to sand down a shelf for my wife. I apply power to the > compressor and nothing happens. Turn it off and back on at the > pressure/on/off switch and nothing. Not a sound. I figure the pressure > switch is broken but I was wondering if anyone has an insight in > troubleshooting this thing. If not I will have a whack at it tomorrow > night. > > Thanks, > > Bill From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Nov 6 04:42:30 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 03:42:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <200811060351.mA63prcf027657@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <316213.44181.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Can you modify the ductwork to emit some warm air into that subfloor area? The could be almost free to "install". You could also put a piece of insulating board to the bottom of the joists, to trap the warm air against the floor. I couple of weeks ago I discovered that our house's ductwork had an extra opening where it passed under the kitchen. I had always wondered why the floor got so warm in the winter! I also discovered a piece of scrap wood lying on top of the duct, that had been used to block the opening during the summer when the AC was running. Now I know why the basement got so cold in the summer! Doug --- Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > We live in a 1927 California Craftsman that has a > central forced air > furnace ... that must have been some sort of > retrofit, I'm guessing, > but maybe not (most houses in that period were built > with in-floor > gas heaters). The furnace looks to have been built > in the 60s, > and the ducts could easily be older. One of these > days we'll > have to replace the furnace, and I'm not looking > forward to that. > > A couple of rooms (including the master bath) were > added > after the fact, and have no heat at all - they're > too far > from the furnace. The living room has one duct > outlet, but > it's not very effective. > > We have electric space heaters in a couple of places > and they > work, but ... well, the master bath is damned cold > in the morning, > and the tub is miserable for the first person to > shower. I'd > like to do something about that. If the floor wasn't > tile, > I'd think about putting electric resistance mat > underneath, > but I really don't want to tear out the tile. > > I was wondering if it might be possible to plumb > hydronic heat > into the existing subfloor (2x8 joists on 16)? Not > really the > way it's normally done, I know, and perhaps > prohibitively > expensive. > > I guess there are also hydronic baseboard units... > has > anyone here gone down this path? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From cak at dimebank.com Thu Nov 6 06:58:59 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 05:58:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? Message-ID: <200811061358.mA6DwxKD002899@moose.dimebank.com> > Can you modify the ductwork to emit some warm air into > that subfloor area? It's about a 20' run to the nearest duct, and that duct is already supplying two rooms! And the ducts are made of paperboard covered with a "white crystalline substance" that I'd really rather not disturb (and no, I don't want to know what it is, because if I know, I'll have to do something about it :-) I spent time poking around the web last night and it appears that installing PEX line under the subfloor isn't unheard of. Not cheap, and I'd have to figure out where to put the boiler, but an interesting idea ... as is installing a baseboard hydronic unit. I also discovered some modern electric space heaters for permanent install - like this one, which is quite intriguing: http://www.amazon.com/Eco-heater-602-whole-room-heater/dp/B00185XISW I can imagine hard-wiring one of these into a couple of places on a timer. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 6 07:45:08 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:45:08 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <200811061358.mA6DwxKD002899@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <20081106144508.JQBA7376.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > It's about a 20' run to the nearest duct, and that duct is > already supplying two rooms! FWIW, what I did was make an entirely new run, all the way back to the furnace. Worked out quite well, and I still don't know what that white stuff was. Cut a new hole in the furnace thimble; Home Depot sells the metal fitting that goes into the hole, plus pre-insulated ductwork and everything else. Even the high-temperature caulking compound. But I still plan to install a direct infrared ceiling fixture in the tiled shower room with a timer so it can't be accidentally left on. Feels good to have the infrared helping dry you after a shower, but I don't want to pay to keep it on all the time. Been using a portable infrared fixture ("quartz tube") for nearly 20 years, it's time to replace it Randall From strovato at optonline.net Thu Nov 6 08:01:10 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:01:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <200811061358.mA6DwxKD002899@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200811061358.mA6DwxKD002899@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <0K9X00LA8330KI51@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Keep in mind that electric heaters are for the most part all the same efficiency. The heater you link to is 400W, which is not much. Depending on your needs and climate, It might work for you. Just realize that they haven't invented any magic that will make that heater put out more than 400W worth of heat. Also, I believe you mentioned a timer. I don't think that heater has a fan, but for a heater with a fan you have to be careful about timers. I have an electric heater that runs the fan for a while after the coils turn off. I was told by the manufacturer that if I just cut the power to it, it would shorten the life of the coils. Of course it has to be built to handle that situation in power failures without burning the house down. -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 08:58 AM 11/6/2008, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: >I also discovered some modern electric space heaters for permanent >install - like this one, which is quite intriguing: > >http://www.amazon.com/Eco-heater-602-whole-room-heater/dp/B00185XISW From strovato at optonline.net Thu Nov 6 08:06:56 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:06:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <200811060351.mA63prcf027657@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200811060351.mA63prcf027657@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <0K9X00LBB3CYHR71@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Another idea for a bathroom is a fan unit with a built in heater. Something like this: http://www.broan.com/display/router.asp?ProductID=100241 -Steve Trovato strovato at optonline.net At 10:51 PM 11/5/2008, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: >We have electric space heaters in a couple of places and they >work, but ... well, the master bath is damned cold in the morning, From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Nov 6 08:21:07 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:21:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <0K9X00LA8330KI51@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <846490.9252.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That's actually what a heat pump does. it essentially "borrows" heat from outside, even though it is colder outside. Doug --- Steven Trovato wrote: Just realize that they haven't invented any > magic that will > make that heater put out more than 400W worth of > heat. From strovato at optonline.net Thu Nov 6 08:32:00 2008 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:32:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <846490.9252.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <0K9X00LA8330KI51@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <846490.9252.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0K9X00EZG4KC7380@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yes, of course. I'm talking about resistive electric heating units, like the one in the link provided. Companies try to market some of them as unique marvels of efficiency. All resistive electric heaters have the same efficiency. The only difference is that the blowers consume some electricity in some models. Electricity through a resistance producing heat is pretty much just physics. At 10:21 AM 11/6/2008, Doug Braun wrote: >That's actually what a heat pump does. it essentially >"borrows" heat from outside, even though it is colder >outside. > >Doug > >--- Steven Trovato wrote: > > Just realize that they haven't invented any > > magic that will > > make that heater put out more than 400W worth of > > heat. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Nov 6 08:39:56 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:39:56 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <0K9X00EZG4KC7380@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0K9X00LA8330KI51@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <846490.9252.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0K9X00EZG4KC7380@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <49130FCC.9010804@xxiii.com> Steven Trovato wrote: > Yes, of course. I'm talking about resistive electric heating units, > like the one in the link provided. Companies try to market some of them > as unique marvels of efficiency. All resistive electric heaters have > the same efficiency. The only difference is that the blowers consume > some electricity in some models. Electricity through a resistance > producing heat is pretty much just physics. Yup, saw the ad and thought it was rather silly they were splashing "eco" and "green" in their names and descriptions! Electrical resistance heat is by definition 100% efficient. Unless you have a duct system that's leaking heat to a unheated area. Even the power consumed by a blower eventually turns into heat, so that's not really a loss. -Wayne From cak at dimebank.com Thu Nov 6 08:59:05 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:59:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? Message-ID: <200811061559.mA6Fx5Uw002207@moose.dimebank.com> > But I still plan to install a direct infrared ceiling fixture in the tiled > shower room with a timer so it can't be accidentally left on. One of the first things I do when moving into a new place is change out the switch for these things to a spring-wound timer! From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 6 09:33:23 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:33:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <0K9X00EZG4KC7380@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0K9X00LA8330KI51@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><846490.9252.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0K9X00EZG4KC7380@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <373CCF3D844B4F68A2A73D0D995293D7@jdnet.deere.com> > All resistive electric heaters have the same efficiency Strictly speaking, that's quite true. But the neat thing about the infrared units is that they heat your skin directly, rather than having to warm all the air in the room first (and the walls, ceiling, etc.) Thus you feel warm, without taking time (and energy) to heat the room. It's like sitting in front of a fireplace; even though most of the actual heat goes up the chimney, the infrared light feels good. Randall From jamesf at groupwbench.org Thu Nov 6 09:26:49 2008 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:26:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <200811060351.mA63prcf027657@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200811060351.mA63prcf027657@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2008, at 10:51 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > > > I was wondering if it might be possible to plumb hydronic heat > into the existing subfloor (2x8 joists on 16)? Not really the > way it's normally done, I know, and perhaps prohibitively > expensive. If you go this far, do it right and make it a true radiant system. This involves insulation and aluminum heat transfer plates, and is expensive, but not much more so that just tacking up PEX. Is the underneath accessible? Is it smooth or are there nails protruding? > > > I guess there are also hydronic baseboard units... has > anyone here gone down this path? H-D sells (around here) Slant-Fin hydronic baseboards. Easy to install if your soldering is decent. You can also run PEX to fittings that solder on to the baseboard. It depends on the route/access from the boiler to the bathroom. With copper prices in flux (ha!) it' shard to say which is cheaper. I highly recommend getting a brand name PEX (Uponor/Wirsbo) at a friendly plumbing supply store. H-D sells inferior product from what I've heard. You can also buy a hydronic panel radiator which gives off some radiant heat due to its large surface area. Much more $ than the hydronic baseboard, and takes up some wall space, but doubles as a towel warmer. As for your boiler, if you're only doing the bathroom and a bedroom, there may not be one small enough. You might need to use a domestic hot water heater and pay for the standby losses. If you think you'll be replacing the furnace, it might be worth getting a boiler sized for the heat loss of the entire house, and putting a coil in to power the existing forced air zones. Slant-fin offers a heat-loss calculator which will size the baseboard for each room and total up the house heat loss. Depending on your climate, electric rate, and anticipated duration in the house, a permanent baseboard or wall-mount electric heater may be the most cost effective. Or re-ducting the house, again depending on access. I've done both a new forced air system and a new hydronic system, and the little extra spent towards doing it new vs. cobbling together a system that isn't comfortable or needs constant fiddling, is money well spent. jim From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 12:22:20 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 14:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <373CCF3D844B4F68A2A73D0D995293D7@jdnet.deere.com> References: <0K9X00LA8330KI51@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <846490.9252.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0K9X00EZG4KC7380@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <373CCF3D844B4F68A2A73D0D995293D7@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811061122m6cb48c70n681e1cc46fd2408d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Randall wrote: >> All resistive electric heaters have the same efficiency > > Strictly speaking, that's quite true. But the neat thing about the infrared > units is that they heat your skin directly, rather than having to warm all > the air in the room first (and the walls, ceiling, etc.) Thus you feel > warm, without taking time (and energy) to heat the room. > > It's like sitting in front of a fireplace; even though most of the actual > heat goes up the chimney, the infrared light feels good. To the first approximation, comfort is determined by the temperature of the surfaces you're radiating heat to. That's why you feel colder standing in front of a window than a wall, even though the room air temperature is the same. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jibjib at att.net Thu Nov 6 18:34:48 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:34:48 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] hydronic heat retrofit? In-Reply-To: <200811061559.mA6Fx5Uw002207@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200811061559.mA6Fx5Uw002207@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <86E230141A3D4BC1A9C12CDF7AA07671@HPPavilion> I have all of our bathroom FANS on spring wound timers, so the kids turn them on, but they don't run for hours. 60 minute timers that we set for 45-60 during the wet Seattle fall-winter-spring and 10-15 during the cool, dry summers. Jack > One of the first things I do when moving into a new place is change out the switch for these things to a spring-wound timer! From wmgilroy at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 20:37:50 2008 From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (William M. Gilroy) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:37:50 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Keeping under a deck dry Message-ID: <4915098E.106@gmail.com> I have a 10x20 deck that I would keep dry underneath so I can store things like the lawnmower, car fenders, old engines, etc. You get the idea big stuff that I don't really need in the garage. I was thinking some type of corrugated roofing material like this stuff but made out of translucent fiberglass so it will let some light in and be cheaper. I would run the stuff in 20 foot lengths with a C channel at the high end and some type fasteners or support on the low end and have a small gutter underneath. Not really sure how to hold the panels together or build the support on the low end. This would keep it dry and allow storage underneath. Anybody ever done this or have any better idea? Thanks, Bill in the rainy NW From obaa996 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 23:02:28 2008 From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Keeping under a deck dry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <407282.91524.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Bill, I had the same thoughts this summer; I ended up putting a roof over the deck, which kept the deck dry/screened, as well as under the deck dry. I used the same corrugated material you were thinking of, except I used polycarb. Check the archives; the folks on this list were very helpful with it. If you just want to cover under the deck, Tuftex makes "Deck-Drain" specifically designed to do what you want; Lowe's carries it (they also make the corrugated roofing panel). Good luck! Mike (also in the PNW). I have a 10x20 deck that I would keep dry underneath so I can store things like the lawnmower, car fenders, old engines, etc. You get the idea big stuff that I don't really need in the garage. I was thinking some type of corrugated roofing material like this stuff but made out of translucent fiberglass so it will let some light in and be cheaper. I would run the stuff in 20 foot lengths with a C channel at the high end and some type fasteners or support on the low end and have a small gutter underneath. Not really sure how to hold the panels together or build the support on the low end. This would keep it dry and allow storage underneath. Anybody ever done this or have any better idea? Thanks, Bill in the rainy NW From jibjib at att.net Sat Nov 8 00:24:14 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 23:24:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Keeping under a deck dry In-Reply-To: <407282.91524.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <407282.91524.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <382722B035F0423FB6E93D5BD047270E@HPPavilion> Hey, it's the PNW. Even if you keep it dry, it'll still get mossy. I have seen what both of you are talking about. It should work, but I'll bet the stuff will still get damp. I have a 6 foot high crawl space that is concreted over half of the basement area. Why they didn't go up another 2 feet and give us a real basement I'll never know. We're on the top of the east hill, with nothing but gravel, sand and glacial till under the house. The sand has never been damp, but everything (not in a plastic bag) stored under the house will feel damp in the depth of winter. Jack SE of Seattle -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Obaa Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:02 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Keeping under a deck dry Hi Bill, I had the same thoughts this summer; I ended up putting a roof over the deck, which kept the deck dry/screened, as well as under the deck dry. I used the same corrugated material you were thinking of, except I used polycarb. Check the archives; the folks on this list were very helpful with it. If you just want to cover under the deck, Tuftex makes "Deck-Drain" specifically designed to do what you want; Lowe's carries it (they also make the corrugated roofing panel). Good luck! Mike (also in the PNW). I have a 10x20 deck that I would keep dry underneath so I can store things like the lawnmower, car fenders, old engines, etc. You get the idea big stuff that I don't really need in the garage. I was thinking some type of corrugated roofing material like this stuff but made out of translucent fiberglass so it will let some light in and be cheaper. I would run the stuff in 20 foot lengths with a C channel at the high end and some type fasteners or support on the low end and have a small gutter underneath. Not really sure how to hold the panels together or build the support on the low end. This would keep it dry and allow storage underneath. Anybody ever done this or have any better idea? Thanks, Bill in the rainy NW You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sun Nov 9 15:53:50 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 16:53:50 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] kohler engine surging Message-ID: <8733FB27474145A584B4F42142FD3E67@niolon> need a lawn tractor engine guru... cub cadet tractor 20 hp twin cyl Kohler engine horz shaft. Engine has started surging and has a hard time idling... surging happens sometimes when at full throttle and blades engaged... need some guidance on what to look for... air cleaner is clean ... I clean it after each use... fresh gas in tank... haven't changed fuel filter yet but can... got to be something dirty in the carb is my thinking but don't want to go spraying carb cleaner everywhere without knowing... help ??? thanks John Everyone seems normal until you get to know them. From ericm at lne.com Sun Nov 9 18:15:48 2008 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 17:15:48 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] kohler engine surging In-Reply-To: <8733FB27474145A584B4F42142FD3E67@niolon> References: <8733FB27474145A584B4F42142FD3E67@niolon> Message-ID: <20081110011548.GC3305@slack.lne.com> On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 04:53:50PM -0600, john niolon wrote: > cub cadet tractor 20 hp twin cyl Kohler engine horz shaft. Engine has > started surging and has a hard time idling... surging happens sometimes > when at full throttle and blades engaged... It's likely to be the fuel filter, but also check that the governor linkage isn't gunked up. Also check that the gas tank vent is clear. Eric From dirtbeard at pacbell.net Sun Nov 9 19:15:05 2008 From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:15:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] kohler engine surging References: <8733FB27474145A584B4F42142FD3E67@niolon> Message-ID: If it spends winters in the shed or sets for long periods (old gas), I would suspect varnish in the carb. best, shook ____________________ '72 BSA B50SS '74 Triumph TR6 '01 HD XLH 883 '03 GMC Cargo Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] kohler engine surging > need a lawn tractor engine guru... > > cub cadet tractor 20 hp twin cyl Kohler engine horz shaft. Engine has > started surging and has a hard time idling... surging happens sometimes > when at full throttle and blades engaged... > > need some guidance on what to look for... air cleaner is clean ... I > clean > it after each use... fresh gas in tank... haven't changed fuel filter yet > but can... got to be something dirty in the carb is my thinking but don't > want to go spraying carb cleaner everywhere without knowing... > > help ??? > > thanks John > > > > Everyone seems normal until you get to know them. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 11:39:06 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:39:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes Message-ID: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> We've got a Sears garage door opener that's gone tits up. It starts to turn the motor, moves a little bit, then gives up, flashing the light socket. The photo eyes have the lights lit they're supposed to, and the one that's supposed to go out when the beam is blocked goes out when the beam is blocked. It opened fine this morning, and then didn't close. When I went to look at it about noon, it went up and down (without the door trolley connected) a couple times. I reconnected the trolley, and it didn't move at all. I pulled the cord to disconnect the trolley, and it didn't work. It moved a foot or two, and then stopped, blinking the light. I disconnected the chain -- the chain tension seems much higher than the opener (identical model, though newer) on the other door in the garage. I've had problems with this opener before; a couple winters ago, I had to adjust the force screws when the temperature changed. I'm wondering if it's worth trying to figure out what's wrong, and then fix, or if it's just time to get a new opener (It's 13 years old, according to the sticker, and gets used 4 or 5 times a day.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Mon Nov 10 11:44:51 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:44:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <629D4572A2A3424490BBA5F27FEF9368@OwnerPC> David.... just for kicks look at the worm drive gears on top of the unit... mine did something similar and it was a stripped gear... you can buy replacements on the net... Google 'garage door gears" or something similar.... not a big deal and pretty cheap too... later John ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes > We've got a Sears garage door opener that's gone tits up. It starts > to turn the motor, moves a little bit, then gives up, flashing the > light socket. The photo eyes have the lights lit they're supposed to, > and the one that's supposed to go out when the beam is blocked goes > out when the beam is blocked. It opened fine this morning, and then > didn't close. When I went to look at it about noon, it went up and > down (without the door trolley connected) a couple times. I > reconnected the trolley, and it didn't move at all. I pulled the cord > to disconnect the trolley, and it didn't work. It moved a foot or > two, and then stopped, blinking the light. I disconnected the chain > -- the chain tension seems much higher than the opener (identical > model, though newer) on the other door in the garage. I've had > problems with this opener before; a couple winters ago, I had to > adjust the force screws when the temperature changed. I'm wondering > if it's worth trying to figure out what's wrong, and then fix, or if > it's just time to get a new opener (It's 13 years old, according to > the sticker, and gets used 4 or 5 times a day.) > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Nov 10 11:58:17 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:58:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49188449.8080604@xxiii.com> David Scheidt wrote: > We've got a Sears garage door opener that's gone tits up. It starts > to turn the motor, moves a little bit, then gives up, flashing the > light socket. The photo eyes have the lights lit they're supposed to, I have a 1999 production Liftmaster / Chamberlain opener which is probably almost identical with yours. It started doing similar stuff last spring. I discovered parts and entire motors or "head units" are readily available on ebay. I bought a gear kit for about $28 with the whole shaft and worm gear assy. What turned out to be the real problem was the housing had a bunch of vegetation (from bird trying to build nests on top!) and dead bugs. When the thing fired up, the air movement kicked up this mess and it got into the optical sensor that detects jams, and tripped it. You can probably pull the front end cap off it, without taking it off the ceiling, and vacuum out the crud to see if that helps. I cleaned out all the crap, replaced and lubed the gears, reflowed solder on the circuit board, put it all back together and adjusted the chain (hint - grab your calipers and find a 1/2" OD deep-well socket and use as a feeler gauge for the chain tension.) If you mess with the electronics, the circuit boards are coded by the color of the "learn button" (red, purple, etc) -Wayne From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 12:28:54 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:28:54 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes In-Reply-To: <49188449.8080604@xxiii.com> References: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> <49188449.8080604@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811101128r90a2fdduff300a41e5a738b0@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Wayne wrote: > David Scheidt wrote: >> >> We've got a Sears garage door opener that's gone tits up. It starts >> to turn the motor, moves a little bit, then gives up, flashing the >> light socket. The photo eyes have the lights lit they're supposed to, > > I have a 1999 production Liftmaster / Chamberlain opener which is probably > almost identical with yours. It started doing similar stuff last spring. I > discovered parts and entire motors or "head units" are readily available on > ebay. I bought a gear kit for about $28 with the whole shaft and worm gear > assy. > > What turned out to be the real problem was the housing had a bunch of > vegetation (from bird trying to build nests on top!) and dead bugs. When the > thing fired up, the air movement kicked up this mess and it got into the > optical sensor that detects jams, and tripped it. You can probably pull the > front end cap off it, without taking it off the ceiling, and vacuum out the > crud to see if that helps. > > I cleaned out all the crap, replaced and lubed the gears, reflowed solder on > the circuit board, put it all back together and adjusted the chain (hint - > grab your calipers and find a 1/2" OD deep-well socket and use as a feeler > gauge for the chain tension.) > > If you mess with the electronics, the circuit boards are coded by the color > of the "learn button" (red, purple, etc) > > -Wayne > I took the bottom cover off. No stripped gears (they've still got grease on them!), rpm sensor eyes are clear (I even cleaned them), limit switches aren't jammed. I can rotate the motor shaft by hand, and it feels smooth, with no notches or slop. That says "electronics" to me. New logic board is $90, available next week. New opener is somewhere between $150 and $300, can get it today. Wonder if they still sell one that will fit all the mounting brackets? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Nov 10 12:57:44 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:57:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40811101128r90a2fdduff300a41e5a738b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> <49188449.8080604@xxiii.com> <2400a5d40811101128r90a2fdduff300a41e5a738b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49189238.4020104@xxiii.com> David Scheidt wrote: > I took the bottom cover off. No stripped gears (they've still got > grease on them!), rpm sensor eyes are clear (I even cleaned them), > limit switches aren't jammed. I can rotate the motor shaft by hand, > and it feels smooth, with no notches or slop. That says "electronics" > to me. New logic board is $90, available next week. New opener is > somewhere between $150 and $300, can get it today. Wonder if they > still sell one that will fit all the mounting brackets? Darn! Thought for sure we'd have ya fixed up?! Could also be bad wiring to the sensors. Mine had all the wires brought together and the conductors (2 or 3 22ga) twisted together and stuffed under the screw terminals, which was flaky. I crimped some spade lugs on short sections of wire and brought those out above the unit, and made the connection with wire nuts and zip-ties. I was seeing circuit boards for $30 and less, with some shopping around. Is it a chain-drive? The current Chamberlain ones available at Lowes have a fancy looking housing, but the mounting rails *might* be compatible. If I could have bought the identical unit lcoally and just bolted the "box" in place and not screwed with the trolley, brackets, hangers, etc I would have gone that route. -Wayne From battmain at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 13:14:28 2008 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:14:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes Message-ID: <554812.77683.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Disconnect the opener from the door. Try moving the door by hand. If the door is properly adjusted it should stop and stay where you put it. If you open it one foot, it should stay open one foot. Look at all the rollers. The ones on my mom's door have a habit of coming loose. Then they cause issues with the opening or closing. The springs are rather easy to adjust, but before touching anything, look at how the tension is on the spring. One way, it has tension, the other way it doesn't. Get it wrong and the spring comes loose, you're going to be hurting. Now that the door is disconnected, does the opener operate all the way? Both ways? (May need to hold the rope to prevent the moving lock from locking in place again, or get someone to help.) If the gears are plastic and you haven't yet taken the gear assembly apart, do so. Look at the inside part that connects to the motor. I had one that was cracked and looked fine from the outside. Also worked fine when the door was disconnected. Scratched my head a bit on that one. :p That's all I can think of at the moment. Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: David Scheidt To: Wayne Cc: Shop Talk List Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:28:54 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes (snip) I took the bottom cover off. No stripped gears (they've still got grease on them!), rpm sensor eyes are clear (I even cleaned them), limit switches aren't jammed. I can rotate the motor shaft by hand, and it feels smooth, with no notches or slop. That says "electronics" to me. New logic board is $90, available next week. New opener is somewhere between $150 and $300, can get it today. Wonder if they still sell one that will fit all the mounting brackets? (snip) From eltonclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 17:02:03 2008 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:02:03 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes In-Reply-To: <554812.77683.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <554812.77683.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *Went through this in the summer with a Sears . . 'Twas the worm gear in my 20 year old one . . Sears had the gears for LATER ones but not mine . . I bought a new Home Depot opener and got free installation . . the next week, I found a whole Sears 'xactly like mine with perfect gears in the junk yard . . they gave me the gears and I fixed the old one for a spare . . it's a curse . . * From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 18:42:59 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:42:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes In-Reply-To: <49189238.4020104@xxiii.com> References: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> <49188449.8080604@xxiii.com> <2400a5d40811101128r90a2fdduff300a41e5a738b0@mail.gmail.com> <49189238.4020104@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811101742o6f2c9b56vfa93f051ddcaf2e7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Wayne wrote: > David Scheidt wrote: >> >> I took the bottom cover off. No stripped gears (they've still got >> grease on them!), rpm sensor eyes are clear (I even cleaned them), >> limit switches aren't jammed. I can rotate the motor shaft by hand, >> and it feels smooth, with no notches or slop. That says "electronics" >> to me. New logic board is $90, available next week. New opener is >> somewhere between $150 and $300, can get it today. Wonder if they >> still sell one that will fit all the mounting brackets? > > Darn! Thought for sure we'd have ya fixed up?! > > Could also be bad wiring to the sensors. Mine had all the wires brought > together and the conductors (2 or 3 22ga) twisted together and stuffed under > the screw terminals, which was flaky. I crimped some spade lugs on short > sections of wire and brought those out above the unit, and made the > connection with wire nuts and zip-ties. > > I was seeing circuit boards for $30 and less, with some shopping around. > > Is it a chain-drive? The current Chamberlain ones available at Lowes have a > fancy looking housing, but the mounting rails *might* be compatible. If I > could have bought the identical unit lcoally and just bolted the "box" in > place and not screwed with the trolley, brackets, hangers, etc I would have > gone that route. So I went and bought a new one. It uses a different set of rails and trolley, but the mounting bracket is the same spacing, and the gear drive assembly is identical (even has the same part number in the manual.) So I'm guessing it'll just drop in, and I'll decide if it's worth upgrading the track and trolley some time later. When it's warm.... -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mark at bradakis.com Tue Nov 11 01:28:15 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:28:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Bending stuff In-Reply-To: <48FED04D.10209@bradakis.com> References: <48FED04D.10209@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <4919421F.6010102@bradakis.com> http://www.team.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9&p=12#p12 mjb. From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Nov 11 05:15:29 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:15:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Vets! Thanks Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081111071124.0207d690@cox.net> I just wanted to take a some time and thank all the Vets on the list. I really appreciate you sacrafices! My God be with you and your family. If any of you have family or friends fighting, I've said a little prayer for their safe return! Moose - you are the only one I know currently over there. Keep you head down, and come home soon. You take care of yourself and your buddies!! John (USN 1968-1972 CVA-62 USS Independence) John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 06:48:24 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:48:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] garage door opener problmes In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40811110538p3904269dn3f851e21fca34721@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40811101039v17c345b7tb67d1375cff67bea@mail.gmail.com> <49188449.8080604@xxiii.com> <2400a5d40811101128r90a2fdduff300a41e5a738b0@mail.gmail.com> <49189238.4020104@xxiii.com> <2400a5d40811101742o6f2c9b56vfa93f051ddcaf2e7@mail.gmail.com> <2400a5d40811110538p3904269dn3f851e21fca34721@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811110548m16ad4fbcu2b55e296d9b9f820@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 8:42 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > > > So I went and bought a new one. It uses a different set of rails and > trolley, but the mounting bracket is the same spacing, and the gear > drive assembly is identical (even has the same part number in the > manual.) So I'm guessing it'll just drop in, and I'll decide if it's > worth upgrading the track and trolley some time later. When it's > warm.... Well, it's up, and working. Installation was a breeze. The only problem I had was that got the chain on timed wrong (It was fully open, the opener was closed, or vice versa.), and it's an incredible pain to adjust that. The existing rail bolted to the opener properly, the brackets from the ceiling lined up perfectly, the existing safety eye things work, the existing wired control works (though it came with a fancier one, that can program remotes.), the remote controls come out of the box programmed to open the door (though, of course, we now have three garage door openers, each of which use a mutually incompatible opener. Sigh.). I'm very impressed: this is how things are supposed to work. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From eric at megageek.com Tue Nov 11 08:14:52 2008 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:14:52 +0300 Subject: [Shop-talk] Vets! Thanks In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20081111071124.0207d690@cox.net> Message-ID: John, Thanks for the kind words and support. I must admit that war has changed alot over the years. Soldiers are kept in alot more comfort and we do alot more to engage and turn the enemy instead of just killing everyone. If any of you want to see my blog, it's here.... http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2008.nsf I try to keep it upbeat and to show a side of the war most people wouldn't believe. Also, I can't talk mission or show pics of locals, so it's pretty much stuff that happens on the FOB. Moose Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Tue Nov 11 20:57:24 2008 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:57:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crawl space (was: under the deck) Message-ID: <76B9DD92FD8149A2A64B035B6814FA08@OFFICEPC> From: "Jack Brooks" jibjib at att.net . . .I have a 6 foot high crawl space that is concreted over half of the basement area. Why they didn't go up another 2 feet and give us a real basement I'll never know. We're on the top of the east hill, with nothing but gravel, sand and glacial till under the house. The sand has never been damp, but everything (not in a plastic bag) stored under the house will feel damp in the depth of winter. Sounds like time to break out the shovel and end up with a basement! From doug at dougbraun.com Thu Nov 13 14:51:54 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:51:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for gift suggestions Message-ID: <695006.27588.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is a description of an amazing new tool the Sears sells. Perfect for Christmas gifts! http://tinyurl.com/5j7n3q Doug From bill at gingerich.us Thu Nov 13 21:55:39 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:55:39 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for gift suggestions In-Reply-To: <695006.27588.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <695006.27588.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'll admit that when I first saw this item in the Craftsman Christmas catalog, I was intrigued. I'm not sure I can think of a real need for it, other than to reduce Tennis Elbow, but the concept is interesting. I'm also not ready to spend $100 for one. I will check it out sometime when I'm at Sears, but I'm not in any big hurry. BillG OKC -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Doug Braun Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:52 PM To: Shop-Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Time for gift suggestions Here is a description of an amazing new tool the Sears sells. Perfect for Christmas gifts! http://tinyurl.com/5j7n3q Doug From mark at sccaprepared.com Fri Nov 14 15:01:08 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:01:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor RV receptacle box Message-ID: Howdy, I'm once again considering what I'd need to do to get an easier power access for my RV and trailer. I'm thinking of getting a box like this: http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/rv-electrical-outlets-new.htm and mounting it on a 4x4 pressure treated post at the corner of the driveway. To get power to it, I can poke a hole out of the garage above the ceiling, then into conduit down into the ground, then in the ground to the corner of the driveway at the base of the pole, then in conduit up the pole and into the box. First... Does that sound like it would meet typical code & "not dumb" requirements? Second... Total wire distance is probably on the order of 150' or so from the electrical box. Since there are two breakers in there at 30A and 20A, I assume I need to be able to handle 50A on the line I run, correct? What wire guage do I need for that? For the in-ground part... What depth? I'm in Ohio and the ground does freeze. I'll also want to be able to drive typical compact (not lawn) tractors over the lawn where its buried, etc. In conduit for the in ground part as well? Plastic or metal? How fast is a typical rental trencher for this type of stuff? The ground here isn't particularly rocky or anything. Finally... $130 seems like an awful lot for a metal box with a couple breakers & receptacles... Are there any cheaper options? I want it to be rain-proof with the cables plugged in, but I don't care about having breakers at the box. I need a 30A receptacle for the motorhome and the trailer can get by with just regular 15A or 20A. Appreciate any advice... Mark From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com Fri Nov 14 19:26:39 2008 From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:26:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] need name for odd device found in shop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114212333.02b096f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> I am cleaning out my neighbors deceased husbands shop for her. Most of the stuff can be identified, but this one has me stumped. http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/3031188048/in/set-72157609084756764/ I think I remember it from science class, but it's purpose escapes me. any help? thanks Skip From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Fri Nov 14 19:38:47 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:38:47 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] need name for odd device found in shop In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114212333.02b096f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114212333.02b096f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <491E3637.8010101@HorneSystemsTx.com> I don't remember what it is called, but it is used to demonstrate magnetic coupling. An AC voltage is placed across one of the coils (I think the terminals on the base) and an AC volt meter is placed across the terminals on the top. As the core (rod in the center) is withdrawn the voltage reading will decrease. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Skip Albright: > I am cleaning out my neighbors deceased husbands shop for her. > > Most of the stuff can be identified, but this one has me stumped. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/3031188048/in/set-72157609084756764/ > > > I think I remember it from science class, but it's purpose escapes me. > > any help? > > thanks > > Skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 11/13/2008 6:01 PM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Nov 14 21:42:36 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:42:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] outdoor RV receptacle box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <990638.90730.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You should get one of those "subset of the National Electrical Code relevant to homes" books, either from the library or HD, etc. Here is the one I have: ISBN 087765457-3 Browse through the Lowes or HD book area for other relevant-looking titles. What you are planning is not particularly exotic. Strictly speaking, you have some flexibility in the size of the wire used to feed it. The more relevant breaker is the one back at the main panel that feeds the line to the box. The line must have a capacity at least as large as that breaker. You also need to be sure your main box can supply the desired current. By the time you buy the conduit and wire, rent a trencher, etc. etc., the price of that box may not be such a big deal. Also look at the temporary boxes they install at building sites to supply power to the builders. Probably you can use heavier plastic conduit, at least 18" deep. The books will all discuss that issue. One other thing: The wire gauge is determined by both the desired current capacity, and the maximum allowable voltage drop caused by the length of the wire. In other words, long runs have to be done with heavier wire than short runs. The books will have formulas for this. On my previous house, I did a nice rewiring job on the detached garage, running a new buried conduit, adding a sub-panel, lots of outlets, etc. I did everything by the book, getting permits and inspections, and it was quite a satisfying project. Doug --- Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > I'm once again considering what I'd need to do to > get an easier power > access for my RV and trailer. > > I'm thinking of getting a box like this: > > http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/rv-electrical-outlets-new.htm > > and mounting it on a 4x4 pressure treated post at > the corner of the > driveway. To get power to it, I can poke a hole out > of the garage above > the ceiling, then into conduit down into the ground, > then in the ground to > the corner of the driveway at the base of the pole, > then in conduit up the > pole and into the box. > > First... Does that sound like it would meet typical > code & "not dumb" > requirements? > > Second... Total wire distance is probably on the > order of 150' or so from > the electrical box. Since there are two breakers in > there at 30A and 20A, > I assume I need to be able to handle 50A on the line > I run, correct? What > wire guage do I need for that? > > For the in-ground part... What depth? I'm in Ohio > and the ground does > freeze. I'll also want to be able to drive typical > compact (not lawn) > tractors over the lawn where its buried, etc. In > conduit for the in > ground part as well? Plastic or metal? > > How fast is a typical rental trencher for this type > of stuff? The ground > here isn't particularly rocky or anything. > > Finally... $130 seems like an awful lot for a metal > box with a couple > breakers & receptacles... Are there any cheaper > options? I want it to be > rain-proof with the cables plugged in, but I don't > care about having > breakers at the box. I need a 30A receptacle for > the motorhome and the > trailer can get by with just regular 15A or 20A. > > Appreciate any advice... > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Nov 15 07:42:37 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 09:42:37 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] need name for odd device found in shop In-Reply-To: <491E3637.8010101@HorneSystemsTx.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114212333.02b096f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> <491E3637.8010101@HorneSystemsTx.com> Message-ID: <491EDFDD.4070203@xxiii.com> Pat wrote: > I don't remember what it is called, but it is used to demonstrate > magnetic coupling. An AC voltage is placed across one of the coils (I > think the terminals on the base) and an AC volt meter is placed across > the terminals on the top. As the core (rod in the center) is withdrawn > the voltage reading will decrease. Sounds reasonable, though I can't think of any useful application for it. The effect is just simple inductance, or inductive coupling. Maybe it's some science fair or classroom type of demo device? -Wayne From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Sat Nov 15 08:19:21 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 09:19:21 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] need name for odd device found in shop In-Reply-To: <491EDFDD.4070203@xxiii.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114212333.02b096f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> <491E3637.8010101@HorneSystemsTx.com> <491EDFDD.4070203@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <491EE879.4060603@HorneSystemsTx.com> Yes, a classroom demonstration device, although someone might try to use it as some type of displacement sensor, something like an LVDT (linear variable differential transformer (or transducer)). Thusly spake Wayne: > Pat wrote: >> I don't remember what it is called, but it is used to demonstrate >> magnetic coupling. An AC voltage is placed across one of the coils (I >> think the terminals on the base) and an AC volt meter is placed >> across the terminals on the top. As the core (rod in the center) is >> withdrawn the voltage reading will decrease. > > Sounds reasonable, though I can't think of any useful application for > it. The effect is just simple inductance, or inductive coupling. > Maybe it's some science fair or classroom type of demo device? > > -Wayne > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1790 - Release Date: 11/15/2008 9:32 AM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From brad.kahler at 141.com Sat Nov 15 08:30:14 2008 From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:30:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] need name for odd device found in shop In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114212333.02b096f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114212333.02b096f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <491EEB06.608@141.com> Hmmm, flux capacitor......?! Skip Albright wrote: > I am cleaning out my neighbors deceased husbands shop for her. > > Most of the stuff can be identified, but this one has me stumped. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/3031188048/in/set-72157609084756764/ > > > I think I remember it from science class, but it's purpose escapes me. > > any help? > > thanks > > Skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1788 - Release Date: 11/14/2008 1:36 PM From eltonclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 18:36:38 2008 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:36:38 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog Message-ID: *New catalog came today . . they have some really neat tools . . www.aircraft-tool.com . . . I'm not that much into aircraft; I just like their tools. What caught my attention is a listing for "valve tappet clearance gauges" . . They look like a double ended single-blade feeler gauge . . they're a bit pricey like all aircraft tools . . $56 and $75 respectfully for "Lycoming" and "Continental" . . what blew my mind was the specification:* ** *Lycoming: .080" and .028"* *Continental: .060" and .200"* ** *WHAT THE F----?* ** *Tony (who raced his formula vee tappets at .002" for years)* From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Nov 18 19:39:36 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:39:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49237C68.7020307@xxiii.com> Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *New catalog came today . . they have some really neat tools . . > www.aircraft-tool.com . . . I'm not that much into aircraft; I just like Interesting, thanks. Another one I found a few years a few years ago is http://www.fibreglast.com/ --- just do not give them a permanent email address, as they will probably spam the crap out of it. Neat products and DIY stuff, though. -Wayne From cavanadd at verizon.net Tue Nov 18 20:16:24 2008 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:16:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog In-Reply-To: <49237C68.7020307@xxiii.com> References: <49237C68.7020307@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <49238508.30507@verizon.net> Be careful going to this site. I clicked on the link and after the site opened my AV software (Avast) stopped it and said it tried to download a Trojan. Dave C On 11/18/2008 Wayne wrote: > > Interesting, thanks. Another one I found a few years a few years ago > is http://www.fibreglast.com/ --- just do not give them a permanent > email address, as they will probably spam the crap out of it. Neat > products and DIY stuff, though. > > -Wayne From shiples at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 00:47:23 2008 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:47:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Using gas indoors In-Reply-To: <49237C68.7020307@xxiii.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081118225747.03147758@mail.comcast.net> We were discussing emergency preparedness today and it brought up a question that I don't have an answer. The local electric utility is pretty good about keeping the power supply on but it's not impossible to lose power for 2 or 3 days. On the rare occasion when that happens there are always a few deaths because someone decides to heat their apartment with a charcoal BBQ. I'm not stupid enough to do that, but I'm afraid I may be capable of doing something equally stupid. I have a natural gas forced air furnace which needs electricity to operate, and I piped my house so I could install a gas range and a gas fireplace log. I also have a variety of items that run on propane. My natural gas appliances, if installed according to code, are apparently safe to use. But it's not clear to me whether propane is safe to use indoors. One of the appliances I have is a simple two burner cast iron stove that runs on propane. I also just salvaged a Jen-aire cooktop that looks unused. So I have a choice between a propane stove, a propane BBQ, and a natural gas cooktop that I'd to use for cooking when the power is out. They all seem to use gas under pressure and some sort of burner that has a valve and a some sort of device to mix fuel/air so it will support combustion. None of them have a flue like a fireplace or a furnace. I know that there are laws governing these as there are probably safety issues but I don't understand the differences. Which of these have the potential to kill me? From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Nov 19 00:59:08 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:59:08 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Using gas indoors In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081118225747.03147758@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20081119075907.PKDG14434.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> > Which > of these have the potential to kill me? All of them. However, the potential is relatively low. The main points are 1) Adequate ventilation. Anything that combusts has the potential to use up all the oxygen. Most houses leak enough air that you don't need to open a window or anything; but some don't. Of course if you are awake, you'll hopefully notice the problem and go outside for a bit, but people have been known to die in their sleep from lack of O2. 2) Clean combustion. Propane normally burns very clean, but check the flame to ensure it's all blue, no yellow tips. Yellow tips indicate not enough O2 for complete combustion, which means it's producing CO. And 3) Fail-safe burner. If you are going to be sleeping, make sure there is a valve to shut off the gas if the flame goes out for whatever reason. However, if you are just using them for cooking (relatively short, attended operation); then none of this is worth worrying about. The problems arise when people start using them for 'comfort' heating and go to sleep. BTW, you can buy both CO and O2 depletion (ODS) alarms. Should be under $20 each, I think. Might be a good idea if there is any chance you want to sleep with an unvented heater. Randall From opposumking at verizon.net Wed Nov 19 04:47:12 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:47:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Using gas indoors References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081118225747.03147758@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <000a01c94a3c$8ff0b5a0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> I, like many millions of people, have a propane stove. Bottle in the back yard, run into the house for the appliances. Stove, oven and drier are typical units that are capable of being run just fine, safe and legal on propane. The appliance must be set up correctly for propane or natural gas, The combustion is different between the two gasses, so the orifices are different. If an appliance is not set up correctly for the fuel it uses, it will produce CO, and can produce it in good quantity. My own oven is a good example of this. It was converted from the stock natural gas configuration to propane, and all runs well. With the exception of the broiler burner. That was not converted (for who knows what reason), and does not burn well. It burns so poorly that it creates extremely high levels of CO, and the poor combustion taints the taste of the meat. Yes, I know, convert it myself. For various reasons, it's easier to just not use the broiler. Getting a CO meter and experimenting with it while you have electricity will give you a very good idea of how well the various appliances are burning in your house. This will let you put your mind at ease regarding the usage of them for heat in a long term power outage. Virtually no house is so air tight that it will not draft adequately for a clean burning appliance. The ability of the oxygen level in the house to go down far enough to cause poor combustion is almost an impossibility. So you really don't need to open windows to run the appliances. When people kill themselves inside with co it's almost always due to a poor running unit. Or at least a unit that's not suited for interior combustion. This is not the case with a propane stove running correctly. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Shipley" To: "Shop Talk List" Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:47 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Using gas indoors > We were discussing emergency preparedness today and it brought up a > question that I don't have an answer. > > The local electric utility is pretty good about keeping the power supply > on > but it's not impossible to lose power for 2 or 3 days. On the rare > occasion when that happens there are always a few deaths because someone > decides to heat their apartment with a charcoal BBQ. I'm not stupid > enough > to do that, but I'm afraid I may be capable of doing something equally > stupid. > > I have a natural gas forced air furnace which needs electricity to > operate, > and I piped my house so I could install a gas range and a gas fireplace > log. I also have a variety of items that run on propane. > > My natural gas appliances, if installed according to code, are apparently > safe to use. But it's not clear to me whether propane is safe to use > indoors. One of the appliances I have is a simple two burner cast iron > stove that runs on propane. I also just salvaged a Jen-aire cooktop that > looks unused. > > So I have a choice between a propane stove, a propane BBQ, and a natural > gas cooktop that I'd to use for cooking when the power is out. They all > seem to use gas under pressure and some sort of burner that has a valve > and > a some sort of device to mix fuel/air so it will support combustion. None > of them have a flue like a fireplace or a furnace. I know that there are > laws governing these as there are probably safety issues but I don't > understand the differences. Which of these have the potential to kill me? From cak at dimebank.com Wed Nov 19 08:18:22 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:18:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Using gas indoors Message-ID: <200811191518.mAJFIMjb004480@moose.dimebank.com> Lots and lots (and lots!) of people use propane in their houses to cook and heat food and water - because they're not located near underground gas lines. Most gas stoves manufactured today are dual-use ... which means they have selectable orifices for 'natural gas' and propane, which come into the house at different pressures. Be sure to select the correct one. Be sure to change the orifice in the oven as well as the stovetop. I mention the latter because when we purchased a propane-plumbed vacation cabin a few years ago, there would be a whiff of "gas smell" every time we showed up for the weekend - which would then dissipate. It took us a while, but we figured it out while investigating why the oven burned everything that we cooked in it: the previous owner had correctly set the stovetop orifice, but not the one for the oven, so the oven burner never cycled off once it had started... and the pilot was running much too high (and had yellow tips, as Randall mentions). From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Nov 19 09:24:26 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:24:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog In-Reply-To: <49238508.30507@verizon.net> References: <49237C68.7020307@xxiii.com> <49238508.30507@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49243DBA.9020103@xxiii.com> David C. wrote: > Be careful going to this site. I clicked on the link and after the site > opened my AV software (Avast) stopped it and said it tried to download a WOAH! Thanks for the heads up, David. I don't even run any AV software on my home computer, as I'm an IT professional and like to kid myself that I'm too knowledgeable to get hit with such things. Fibreglast has some really cool composite products, but did hit my email address with what I consider to be spam. Their web server could be infected, and they might not even know it. I don't ~think~ they'd do anything that malicious, but infections happen. -Wayne From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Wed Nov 19 10:35:14 2008 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:35:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog In-Reply-To: <49243DBA.9020103@xxiii.com> References: <49237C68.7020307@xxiii.com> <49238508.30507@verizon.net> <49243DBA.9020103@xxiii.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne [mailto:wmc_st at xxiii.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:24 AM > To: David C.; Shop Talk List > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog > > David C. wrote: > > Be careful going to this site. I clicked on the link and after the > > site opened my AV software (Avast) stopped it and said it tried to > > download a > > WOAH! Thanks for the heads up, David. I don't even run any > AV software on my home computer, as I'm an IT professional > and like to kid myself that I'm too knowledgeable to get hit > with such things. Ah, the I am a professional don't try this at home kids approach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pf3ID3XQ6o From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Nov 19 11:28:40 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:28:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] ......won't happen to me..... In-Reply-To: References: <49237C68.7020307@xxiii.com> <49238508.30507@verizon.net> <49243DBA.9020103@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <49245AD8.5090700@xxiii.com> Galt, Stuart A wrote: > Ah, the I am a professional don't try this at home kids approach. Yeah, great analogy :) Really. I fix PCs for friends and family that get infected with garbage, and usually think "gawd, how could you be so ##### inept as to have walked into this..." but I guess it's easier than it may look. Since I was recently forced to upgrade my PC to 5 year old technology, I guess I can no longer use the "it saps too much speed" excuse against AV software. Will have to reconsider (and test myself!) Damn... I'm suddenly feeling like my male slut college friend that got STD / AIDS tests every two weeks?! -W From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Nov 19 12:08:04 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:08:04 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Using gas indoors In-Reply-To: <000a01c94a3c$8ff0b5a0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081118225747.03147758@mail.comcast.net> <000a01c94a3c$8ff0b5a0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <49287F2F7B4F4D228E044FFBF384FE74@jdnet.deere.com> > Virtually no house is so air tight that it will not draft > adequately for a > clean burning appliance. The ability of the oxygen level in > the house to go > down far enough to cause poor combustion is almost an > impossibility. So much so that all gas heaters made since 1982 are required to incorporate an oxygen depletion sensor in the safety valve. http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/452.html Randall From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 16:36:28 2008 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:36:28 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *****Back to the original message:* *Did anyone else have a problem with tappet settings of .060", .080" and .200"????????????* *Tony* *PS: I open arcraft-tool.com every week or so and neither Norton nor AVG has ever alerted me.* On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *New catalog came today . . they have some really neat tools . . > www.aircraft-tool.com . . . I'm not that much into aircraft; I just like > their tools. What caught my attention is a listing for "valve tappet > clearance gauges" . . They look like a double ended single-blade feeler > gauge . . they're a bit pricey like all aircraft tools . . $56 and $75 > respectfully for "Lycoming" and "Continental" . . what blew my mind was the > specification:* > ** > *Lycoming: .080" and .028"* > *Continental: .060" and .200"* > ** > *WHAT THE F----?* > ** > *Tony (who raced his formula vee tappets at .002" for years)* From cavanadd at verizon.net Wed Nov 19 20:17:53 2008 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:17:53 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Catalog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4924D6E1.8040805@verizon.net> The virus wasn't in the aircraft tool site, it was in the fiberglast.com site that was referenced in the email. Yeah, I would like to know more about those valve lash tolerances, too. I have set valves on a lot of air cooled engines and they run around .007 - .012 or so. Dave C On 11/19/2008 Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *****Back to the original message:* > *Did anyone else have a problem with tappet settings of .060", .080" > and > .200"????????????* > *Tony* > *PS: I open arcraft-tool.com every week or so and neither Norton nor > AVG has > ever alerted me.* From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Nov 20 09:16:57 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:16:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors Message-ID: Howdy, Whats the deal with single vs. dual stage compressors? I've long been thinking that I'd want to get a decent 60 or 80 gallon two stage compressor when I upgrade next. But I was reading the recent TP Tools thanksgiving sale flyer and they had some listings for High output single stage compressors. One in particular was $650 and has a working pressure of 95-125 psi, with 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi (Eagle brand three cylinder 5 hp running, 23A at 230VAC, 7hp peak, 60 gallon). No spec on pump rpm. That's as compared to $1300 for a Champion 5hp two stage, @19.1 cfm @125 psi, 22A @230vac. The pump rpm on this one is 805rpm I realize that 19.1 cfm @ 125psi is more air that 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi, but would I ever care about that? I'm going to be a single user using normal air tools like cut offs & body sanders, plus a blast cabinet, perhaps painting a car, etc. Currently I have a Craftsman direct drive single stage that says it does 7 scfm @ 90psi... That thing won't keep up with a cutoff very long. Half price is pretty attractive if it'll do what I need it to do... Mark From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Thu Nov 20 09:43:41 2008 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:43:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <581E550B3D734312BFB2641F4C200492@DADSTOY> Mark if you are going to run a blast cabinet you want all the cfm you can get, but I admit I don't know how to evaluate different rating. And every mfgr seems to use different ratings to make comparisons difficult. I am not sure your assumption that 19.1 cfm @125 psi is actually more air volume than 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi.....(what would the cfm be if it were measured at 125 psi?) I bought a two stage because I feel they recover faster. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Andy Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:17 AM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors Howdy, Whats the deal with single vs. dual stage compressors? I've long been thinking that I'd want to get a decent 60 or 80 gallon two stage compressor when I upgrade next. But I was reading the recent TP Tools thanksgiving sale flyer and they had some listings for High output single stage compressors. One in particular was $650 and has a working pressure of 95-125 psi, with 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi (Eagle brand three cylinder 5 hp running, 23A at 230VAC, 7hp peak, 60 gallon). No spec on pump rpm. That's as compared to $1300 for a Champion 5hp two stage, @19.1 cfm @125 psi, 22A @230vac. The pump rpm on this one is 805rpm I realize that 19.1 cfm @ 125psi is more air that 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi, but would I ever care about that? I'm going to be a single user using normal air tools like cut offs & body sanders, plus a blast cabinet, perhaps painting a car, etc. Currently I have a Craftsman direct drive single stage that says it does 7 scfm @ 90psi... That thing won't keep up with a cutoff very long. Half price is pretty attractive if it'll do what I need it to do... Mark You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From parkanzky at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 09:51:08 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought that the point of 2-stage was higher PSI, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. In other words, I bought a single stage IR with a max pressure of 125 PSI, and the 2-stage was rated at 175 PSI. 175 PSI affectively increases the capacity of your tank. Also, what is 19.1 cfm@ 125 PSI at 90 PSI? I bet it's a ton. If you're thinking about using sanders, blasting, painting, etc. I'd look for a lot of CFM and a compressor rated for continuous duty. -Paul On 11/20/08, Mark Andy wrote: > > Howdy, > > Whats the deal with single vs. dual stage compressors? > > I've long been thinking that I'd want to get a decent 60 or 80 gallon two > stage compressor when I upgrade next. But I was reading the recent TP Tools > thanksgiving sale flyer and they had some listings for High output single > stage compressors. > > One in particular was $650 and has a working pressure of 95-125 psi, with > 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi (Eagle brand three cylinder 5 hp running, 23A at 230VAC, > 7hp peak, 60 gallon). No spec on pump rpm. > > That's as compared to $1300 for a Champion 5hp two stage, @19.1 cfm @125 > psi, 22A @230vac. The pump rpm on this one is 805rpm > > I realize that 19.1 cfm @ 125psi is more air that 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi, but > would I ever care about that? I'm going to be a single user using normal > air tools like cut offs & body sanders, plus a blast cabinet, perhaps > painting a car, etc. > > Currently I have a Craftsman direct drive single stage that says it does 7 > scfm @ 90psi... That thing won't keep up with a cutoff very long. > > Half price is pretty attractive if it'll do what I need it to do... > > Mark From arvidj at visi.com Thu Nov 20 10:01:58 2008 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:01:58 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors References: Message-ID: In my opinion it is "the amount of energy you can store in the tank". A single stage will usually have a tank pressure of 125-130 and a dual stage is usually around 175. So you are able to store more energy in the tank and therefore draw more energy from the tank before the compressor comes on and/or you draw it down lower than what your tools need. I know that my dual stage will be at 175, when I use it will draw down to about 155 before the compressor comes on, the compressor is capable of keeping up with any of my tools so the tank never seems to go below 135 about, and I have the regulator off the tank set at 125 so the airlines in the garage never go below 125. I speculate that a single stage would start at 130, draw down to 115 or so and then the compressor would come on and like the dual stage would need to keep up with the air the tool is drawing from the tank. The one you are talking about can probably keep up, so the difference would only be that the single stage is much closer to the lower limit than the dual stage would be. As a side note, the 805rpm is a nice feature, especially compared to the buzz-box racket of the direct drive compressor. Arvid > Howdy, > > Whats the deal with single vs. dual stage compressors? > > I've long been thinking that I'd want to get a decent 60 or 80 gallon two > stage compressor when I upgrade next. But I was reading the recent TP > Tools thanksgiving sale flyer and they had some listings for High output > single stage compressors. > > One in particular was $650 and has a working pressure of 95-125 psi, with > 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi (Eagle brand three cylinder 5 hp running, 23A at 230VAC, > 7hp peak, 60 gallon). No spec on pump rpm. > > That's as compared to $1300 for a Champion 5hp two stage, @19.1 cfm @125 > psi, 22A @230vac. The pump rpm on this one is 805rpm > > I realize that 19.1 cfm @ 125psi is more air that 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi, but > would I ever care about that? I'm going to be a single user using normal > air tools like cut offs & body sanders, plus a blast cabinet, perhaps > painting a car, etc. > > Currently I have a Craftsman direct drive single stage that says it does 7 > scfm @ 90psi... That thing won't keep up with a cutoff very long. > > Half price is pretty attractive if it'll do what I need it to do... > > Mark From mikey at b2systems.com Thu Nov 20 10:35:48 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:35:48 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49259FF4.8060001@b2systems.com> I happen to own the Champion compressor and its awesome. The thing easily keeps up with my blasting cabinet, comes on for a very short while and shuts back off, very short cycle time while blasting which keeps the heat down. Keeping the heat down helps with the moisture in the lines. And the 805RPM is QUIET, I can work in the middle of the night and not wake up the neighbors as long as the garage door is closed. My previous compressor was a 60gallon Craftsman 5HP airless compressor and while SEARS calls them oilless, they really are airless compared to the Champion. I burned up the first one in 2 weeks while blasting and they replaced it, the second one seized up after a 2 months, rebuilt it and sold it ($50 because that is all I felt it was worth). This Champion is worth every penny to me and I would no longer consider the less expensive compressors but you have to figure out how much air you need. You mentioned blasting, that is a large air use and you need to realistically think of how often and how long you do that. The other thing is you need to figure out how much money you have left over because once you have a quiet and reliable air supply you will be buying more air tools :) I would be more concerned with CFM than I would be pressure, I limit my air lines to 125psi in the garage and rarely go above 100 on anything anyway so either compressor will do the job when it comes to PSI. mike Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > Whats the deal with single vs. dual stage compressors? > > I've long been thinking that I'd want to get a decent 60 or 80 gallon > two stage compressor when I upgrade next. But I was reading the > recent TP Tools thanksgiving sale flyer and they had some listings for > High output single stage compressors. > > One in particular was $650 and has a working pressure of 95-125 psi, > with 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi (Eagle brand three cylinder 5 hp running, 23A > at 230VAC, 7hp peak, 60 gallon). No spec on pump rpm. > > That's as compared to $1300 for a Champion 5hp two stage, @19.1 cfm > @125 psi, 22A @230vac. The pump rpm on this one is 805rpm > > I realize that 19.1 cfm @ 125psi is more air that 16.5 cfm @ 90 psi, > but would I ever care about that? I'm going to be a single user using > normal air tools like cut offs & body sanders, plus a blast cabinet, > perhaps painting a car, etc. > > Currently I have a Craftsman direct drive single stage that says it > does 7 scfm @ 90psi... That thing won't keep up with a cutoff very long. > > Half price is pretty attractive if it'll do what I need it to do... > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as mikey at b2systems.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 20 11:27:07 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:27:07 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I thought that the point of 2-stage was higher PSI, but that > doesn't seem to > be the case here. I think you are confusing maximum pressure with the pressure for a rated flow. "19.1 cfm @ 125 psi" does not mean it won't go higher, only that 125 is where they measured the 19.1 cfm. Also note that compressor cfm figures are always kind of misleading; the cubic feet are actually measured at atmospheric pressure (scfm, approximately) rather than the quoted pressure. > Also, what is 19.1 cfm@ 125 PSI at 90 PSI? I bet it's a ton. Not really. Because the ratings are really scfm, and 2-stage compressors keep their efficiency to higher pressures than single stage ones do; a 2-stage rated for 19.1 @ 125 will still produce about 19.1 @ 90. IOW, the (s)cfm stays pretty much the same, until the pressure gets high enough that the compressor's efficiency drops off. In theory you could change that by using a variable speed motor (or transmission), but I've never heard of an air compressor that does so. It's much easier to just design everything for the normal operating pressure, and let the motor loaf at lower pressures. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 20 11:34:16 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:34:16 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <829AC45A14A94426BC771F89D135F262@jdnet.deere.com> Randall wrote : > In theory you could > change that by using a variable speed motor (or > transmission), but I've > never heard of an air compressor that does so. Oops. Here's a discussion of just such an arrangement, saying it's becoming popular (with much larger compressors than we are discussing) http://www.plantservices.com/articles/2006/278.html Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 20 11:36:01 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:36:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Whats the deal with single vs. dual stage compressors? The main thing is that 2-stage compressors are much more efficient at higher pressures than single stage. That means you can store almost twice as much air in the same size tank. No big deal if your compressor is big enough to keep up with the load, but it can make a big difference if you have to run at least partially on air stored in the tank (which is usually the case). Randall From burkheimer at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 11:52:14 2008 From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:52:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Message-ID: <4382458b0811201052x2ed6f636l71c57e1f47976faf@mail.gmail.com> On 11/19/2008 Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *****Back to the original message:* > *Did anyone else have a problem with tappet settings of .060", .080" > and > .200"????????????* Tony, those aircraft engines are based on designs from the 1930s generally, and some of them have valvetrains well over a foot long, of alloys that were not optimized for less expansion. Have you heard on of those old planes start up on a cold morning? Sets your teeth on edge, it does. By the way, I assume everyone is familiar with Aircraft Spruce? How goes the vintage loti scene? -- Rex B Ft Worth TX From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Nov 20 12:04:11 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:04:11 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors References: Message-ID: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> The other side of that is that if you don't regularly need the higher pressure, 2-stage compressors are less efficient than single-stage. You'lll get more air with the same actual horsepower from a single-stage compressor operating at 120 PSI maximum than a 2-stage at 175 PSI maximum, assuming you're only using maybe 90-100 PSI for your tools or whatever. The idea of filling your tank more is great if you're doing something intermittently, but if you're using air pretty steadily the size of the tank is essentially meaningless. If you want to do something requiring more air than your compressor puts out, you'll have to work a few minutes, then wait a few minutes while the compressor catches up. If that's OK, then a 2-stage might be OK for you, giving you that high pressure if you ever need it. But what are you going to use 175 PSI air for in a typical home shop ? If you have a 2-stage with sufficient pumping capacity - a big enough compressor head and motor to keep up at 100% demand - and if you don't need high pressure most of the time, you can improve its efficiency a little by just setting the pressure switch lower. There's no use in pumping up a tank of 175 PSI air if the highest pressure you usually use is 100 PSI, AS LONG AS you have sufficient compressor capacity. And though 2-stage compressors are indeed more efficient at high pressures than single-stage ones, they're less efficient when compared to single-stage compressors in the working range of the single-stage unit. So if you don't need high pressure ever, don't go 2-stage. You'll get more air per dollar of purchase price and per dollar of running cost with a single-stage. But nothing impresses the women like a 175 PSI compressor - it's so much more macho than a wimpy single-stage, so if you have to have one, then go for it ;-) Then there are horsepower ratings. I hope Randall will expand on this because I really don't like thinking about electronics, but be aware that horsepower ratings are often a complete fairy tale, particularly in consumer brands. I strictly look at voltage and amperage, and compare from there. Karl >> Whats the deal with single vs. dual stage compressors? > > The main thing is that 2-stage compressors are much more efficient at > higher > pressures than single stage. That means you can store almost twice as > much > air in the same size tank. No big deal if your compressor is big enough > to > keep up with the load, but it can make a big difference if you have to run > at least partially on air stored in the tank (which is usually the case). > > Randall From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Thu Nov 20 12:07:22 2008 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:07:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" In-Reply-To: <4382458b0811201052x2ed6f636l71c57e1f47976faf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As long as we have sort of wandered around to good sources for unusual stuff I'd like to nominate one of my favorites. The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works (don't you just love that name? Can't you just see some gruff old mechanic in coverall with the stub of a cigar in his teeth and grease on his face working on a Jenny?) Anyway, they are a good source for aircraft metals....chromemoly, aluminum etc..... Gerry -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rex Burkheimer Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:52 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" On 11/19/2008 Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > *****Back to the original message:* > *Did anyone else have a problem with tappet settings of .060", .080" > and > .200"????????????* Tony, those aircraft engines are based on designs from the 1930s generally, and some of them have valvetrains well over a foot long, of alloys that were not optimized for less expansion. Have you heard on of those old planes start up on a cold morning? Sets your teeth on edge, it does. By the way, I assume everyone is familiar with Aircraft Spruce? How goes the vintage loti scene? -- Rex B Ft Worth TX You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Nov 20 12:24:18 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:24:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" References: <4382458b0811201052x2ed6f636l71c57e1f47976faf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, although air-cooled airplane engines indeed have clearances a little looser than liquid-cooled engines, the reason for the really thick feelers is to pre-set hydrauklic lifters.; They're not pumped up when you're building the engine, and when hydraulic lifters are squashed down the clearance is indeed that big. Those tools are mostly for modern Continentals and Lycomings, which mostly all have hydraulic lifters. Generally, the really old engines have solid lifters, though. My old Army-surplus plane's 220-HP Continental radial engine has solid lifters and the valve clearance is .010 cold. The pushrods and cylinders are both steel, so there's not much differential expansion changing the clearance between cold and hot. Now, when you have aluminum pushrods in a steel or iron engine, it's a different story, but that's not common on certificated aircraft engines. That big radial is indeed a bit noisy on start-up as Rex noted, and the big whoof of oil smoke is certainly remarkable (they do that), but it never quiets down much till I land and shut it down. ;-) Karl > On 11/19/2008 Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: >> *****Back to the original message:* >> *Did anyone else have a problem with tappet settings of .060", .080" >> and >> .200"???????????? From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Nov 20 12:45:26 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:45:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" References: Message-ID: <000401c94b48$89310730$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Well, actually, it's just Dillsburg Aero. Nice article about it here: http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleDillsburgAero.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'Rex Burkheimer'" ; Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" > As long as we have sort of wandered around to good sources for unusual > stuff > I'd like to nominate one of my favorites. The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works > (don't you just love that name? Can't you just see some gruff old mechanic > in coverall with the stub of a cigar in his teeth and grease on his face > working on a Jenny?) From mikey at b2systems.com Thu Nov 20 12:48:51 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:48:51 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> Message-ID: <4925BF23.1060804@b2systems.com> Karl Vacek wrote: > Then there are horsepower ratings. I hope Randall will expand on this > because I really don't like thinking about electronics, but be aware > that horsepower ratings are often a complete fairy tale, particularly > in consumer brands. I strictly look at voltage and amperage, and > compare from there. AGREED, I learned while shopping Craftsman stuff...IGNORE the HP rating, look at the amperage draw of the motor, there is just no way that Craftsman motors can put out 5HP with only 12amp draws, they rate them differently I forget which, startup or stall or who knows. The amperage is the true HP of the motor. mike -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 20 13:00:27 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:00:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> Message-ID: <3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> Karl Vacek wrote : > be aware that > horsepower ratings are often a complete fairy tale, Now what could I add to that ? Things have improved somewhat in that regard, since someone successfully sued for false advertising a few years ago, but I still wouldn't pay any attention to "horsepower" ratings for an air compressor. The cfm is what matters. As far as energy efficiency goes; I'm not convinced that single stage units have that much advantage even at 90 psi. The example given (15% more air on 5% less apparent power from the 2-stage unit) seems more typical of the spec sheets I've looked at. I don't know, but I suspect this is the same problem as before : it's impossible to build a perfect compressor (infinite compression ratio), and any unswept volume wastes energy on every cycle. How much it wastes depends on the pressure ratio; and 2-stage compressors have a lower ratio (for the same output pressure) than single-stage units do. But there is something to be said for not pumping a big tank up to 175 psi if you don't need it. I just can't imagine not needing it. Even a small die grinder typically needs at least 4 cfm @ 90 psi; which translates to some 28 scfm in compressor-speak. And even if I could afford a 28 cfm compressor, I don't have enough electrical power to turn it! Randall - in the middle of adding a 30 amp circuit for a measly "7 hp" compressor, rated under 20 cfm. From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Thu Nov 20 13:01:22 2008 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:01:22 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl Vacek [mailto:kvacek at ameritech.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:04 AM > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors > > But nothing impresses the women like a 175 PSI compressor - > it's so much more macho than a wimpy single-stage, so if you > have to have one, then go > for it ;-) > I need one that goes to eleven! I mean if my compressor is at ten, and my tool is at ten and I need just a bit more.... hmmm, what are they putting in the coffee around here :) From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Nov 20 13:09:37 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:09:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, So in the latest TP tools catalog (who, btw, are local to me...) they show the following compressors that interest me in one way or the other. >From most expensive to least: Champion Centurion $1299 5hp, 2 stage, 175psi max, 19.1cfm @ 125 psi, 805 pump rpm Quincy $1099 5hp, 2 stage, 175 psi max, 15.2cfm @ 175 psi, 1310 pump rpm Eagle $749 5hp, single stage, 95-125 working pressure, 150 psi max, 18.5 cfm @ 100 psi Eagle $649 5hp, single stage, 95-125 working pressure, 135 psi max, 16.5 cfm @ 100 psi Campbell Hausfeld $599 5 hp, 2 stage, 12.6 cfm @ 90psi, 175 psi max Campbell Hausfeld $299 5 hp, 1 stage, 10.2 cfm @ 90 psi, 135 psi max Sounds like sand blasting will be the most air I'm going to use... I'll do most of my blasting in a regular blast cabinet (TP Tools says 10-15 cfm required?), but occasionally will use a portable "pot" pressurized blaster as well. Thanks folks! Mark From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Nov 20 13:19:32 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:19:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: <3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> <3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 20 Nov 2008, Randall wrote: > But there is something to be said for not pumping a big tank up to 175 > psi if you don't need it. I just can't imagine not needing it. Even a > small die grinder typically needs at least 4 cfm @ 90 psi; which > translates to some 28 scfm in compressor-speak. And even if I could > afford a 28 cfm compressor, I don't have enough electrical power to turn > it! Wait. What? if the die grinder says its needs 4 cfm @ 90 psi and the compressor says it'll provide 16 cfm @ 90 psi... What's the problem? Mark From eltonclark at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 14:17:23 2008 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:17:23 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" In-Reply-To: <4382458b0811201052x2ed6f636l71c57e1f47976faf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4382458b0811201052x2ed6f636l71c57e1f47976faf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: *Problem solved: Those amazingly wide tappet gauge figures, .080" and .200", are because these engines have hydraulic lifters and the gauge is used only to insure that the clearances are within the range that the lifters can handle . . whew! . . that had me worried! * *Rex asked if we knew about Aircraft Spruce. Yes, I've used lots of their products for many years and they have great catalogs with tech info. Their fiber glass and aluminum finishing products are magic and I've used them on several vintage race cars. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/* ** *Rex asked about the vintage Lotus scene: Glad you asked! My podner, Dave Salls, racing my ol' Lotus 51 formula Ford just won 2nd place in the CVAR 2008 FF1 Championship . . Twenty-six cars competing. First place was also a Lotus 51; we're feeling pretty cocky right now!* ** *Tony* ** From arvidj at visi.com Thu Nov 20 14:51:26 2008 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:51:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> <4925BF23.1060804@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <563750F0824A49EC92A882E524FACC8B@behavioral.com> From: "Mike Rambour" > they rate > them differently I forget which, startup or stall or who knows. I've always thought it was the same rating method they use for shopvacs - an I.L.S. rating - If Lightning Strikes ... From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 20 15:35:49 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:35:49 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL><3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <72C96F30923B4B55AD1E303F7715B7A6@jdnet.deere.com> > if the die grinder says its needs 4 cfm @ 90 psi and the > compressor says > it'll provide 16 cfm @ 90 psi... What's the problem? The problem is that the rating of the air compressor is in cubic feet _after_ it has been expanded back to atmospheric pressure ... in spite of what it says. Another way to look at it is cubic feet into the intake rather than into the tank. You can easily see this by looking at how long it takes the compressor to fill it's own tank. For example, a typical 110v compressor might be rated 6 cfm and have a 20 gallon tank. But 20 gallons is only about 2.6 cubic feet, so if the compressor were really putting out that much air, it would shut off in less than 30 seconds. Instead it takes several minutes to even reach 90 psi. Randall From bill at gingerich.us Thu Nov 20 16:06:42 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:06:42 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: <4925BF23.1060804@b2systems.com> References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> <4925BF23.1060804@b2systems.com> Message-ID: I found this article about electric motor horsepower that answered a lot of my questions. http://www.bacharach-training.com/norm/electric.htm BillG OKC -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mike Rambour Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:49 PM To: Karl Vacek Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors Karl Vacek wrote: > Then there are horsepower ratings. I hope Randall will expand on this > because I really don't like thinking about electronics, but be aware > that horsepower ratings are often a complete fairy tale, particularly > in consumer brands. I strictly look at voltage and amperage, and > compare from there. AGREED, I learned while shopping Craftsman stuff...IGNORE the HP rating, look at the amperage draw of the motor, there is just no way that Craftsman motors can put out 5HP with only 12amp draws, they rate them differently I forget which, startup or stall or who knows. The amperage is the true HP of the motor. mike -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com **************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Thu Nov 20 17:26:35 2008 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:26:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" In-Reply-To: <000401c94b48$89310730$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <4E8CDBBC510941E0B4E0A405E42A74ED@DADSTOY> Guess I have known them for a long time. Google will still find then with the old name. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Nolan Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:45 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Well, actually, it's just Dillsburg Aero. Nice article about it here: http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleDillsburgAero.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'Rex Burkheimer'" ; Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" > As long as we have sort of wandered around to good sources for unusual > stuff > I'd like to nominate one of my favorites. The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works > (don't you just love that name? Can't you just see some gruff old mechanic > in coverall with the stub of a cigar in his teeth and grease on his face > working on a Jenny?) You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From nases at verizon.net Thu Nov 20 18:31:31 2008 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:31:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Speaking of compressors and blast cabs Message-ID: <19BB2786-CC64-45BE-A24E-730789E899E5@verizon.net> I have a cheap HF blast cabinet. It's a bench top model. I have a dust vacuum bong on it to keep the dust to a minimum. For some reason lately it's blowing out a lot of dust thru the cabinet seams. Do I need more vacuum. I had a vacuum on it that died and it worked well. Now it barely pulls at the outlet. I don't want to lose too much media due to vacuum but I don't know what to do about it. Is anyone using a similar DIY setup that works well? Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ From opposumking at verizon.net Thu Nov 20 18:48:16 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:48:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" References: <4E8CDBBC510941E0B4E0A405E42A74ED@DADSTOY> Message-ID: Sorry, wasn't trying to be a smart alleky corrector, which is what my message sounded like. I don't know the company and went googling them because of your glowing recommendations. Found the link and several others, all of which call it Dillsburg Aero. After I posted I continued googling around, and found others calling them Dillsburg Aeroplane Works. I have no idea which name is correct, if both are correct, if one is earlier than the other. Really, all I should have done was posted the link because it was interesting and thanked you for the info on them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'Nolan'" ; Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:26 PM Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Guess I have known them for a long time. Google will still find then with the old name. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Nolan Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:45 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" Well, actually, it's just Dillsburg Aero. Nice article about it here: http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleDillsburgAero.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'Rex Burkheimer'" ; Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY" > As long as we have sort of wandered around to good sources for unusual > stuff > I'd like to nominate one of my favorites. The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works > (don't you just love that name? Can't you just see some gruff old mechanic > in coverall with the stub of a cigar in his teeth and grease on his face > working on a Jenny?) You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Nov 20 18:58:44 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:58:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL><3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> <72C96F30923B4B55AD1E303F7715B7A6@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <1E23F865E2D442CA98EC3DA9FA308A54@KARL> If that's the rating, then there is no problem. The size of the tank is immaterial (once it's up to pressure) if the free air (SCFM) rating of the tool is less than the free air (SCFM) rating of the compressor. The size of the tank only comes into play if you use more air than the compressor can replace. Think of it this way - if you piped the exhaust from that die grinder into a 4 cubic foot plastic bag (that was empty and flattened when you started), after one minute the bag would be full of air at about 1 atmosphere of pressure, NOT full of air at 90 PSI. It would take nearly 2 minutes for that compressor to fill a 4 cubic foot tank with air at 90 PSI, assuming you weren't using the grinder while you also filled the tank. And that 4 cubic feet of 90 PSI air would fill nearly eight 4 cubic foot bags. Karl >> if the die grinder says its needs 4 cfm @ 90 psi and the >> compressor says >> it'll provide 16 cfm @ 90 psi... What's the problem? > > The problem is that the rating of the air compressor is in cubic feet > _after_ it has been expanded back to atmospheric pressure ... in spite of > what it says. Another way to look at it is cubic feet into the intake > rather than into the tank. > > You can easily see this by looking at how long it takes the compressor to > fill it's own tank. For example, a typical 110v compressor might be rated > 6 > cfm and have a 20 gallon tank. But 20 gallons is only about 2.6 cubic > feet, > so if the compressor were really putting out that much air, it would shut > off in less than 30 seconds. Instead it takes several minutes to even > reach > 90 psi. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Nov 20 21:06:46 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:06:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: <3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> <3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <492633D6.7070602@xxiii.com> Randall wrote: > And even if I could afford a 28 cfm > compressor, I don't have enough electrical power to turn it! HuhHuh... the company I used to work at had a 50HP rotary vane compressor, and a "backup" 25HP. Along with all the CNC equipment, HVAC, etc we typically had $11,000 - $13,000 a month electric bills! But dang it, we ALWAYS had compressed air! -Wayne From bobkegel at seanet.com Thu Nov 20 21:12:28 2008 From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:12:28 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Speaking of compressors and blast cabs In-Reply-To: <19BB2786-CC64-45BE-A24E-730789E899E5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7F260011966440AE80272842E7360053@8sv5f01> > For some reason lately it's blowing out a lot of dust thru > the cabinet seams. I've got a similar HF blaster. I went over all the seams, on the inside, with RTV sealant. For small jobs I don't bother hooking up the vac, I just stick a piece of foam air filter material in the outlet. The dust stays inside. Bob Kegel Aberdeen, WA From kvacek at ameritech.net Thu Nov 20 21:23:42 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:23:42 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors References: <4B0FA2D29F4F4F16B73629B0E6DDD839@KARL> <3AA10F70A4704632A605ADCA2FC827DD@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: Randall - That's not quite right. The die grinder needs its air supply at 90 PSI, but in a minute it will exhaust 4 CFM of free air, not 4 CFM of 90 PSI air or 28 CFM of free air. The drop in pressure across the tool is from the expansion of the compressed air, which gives off its energy as work in the tool, also cooling as it expands. Another example: A typical siphon spray gun like a Binks 7 gun runs about 7 CFM, typically at anywhere from 40 to 60 PSI, maybe higher or lower than that depending on what you 're spraying. A real 2-HP compressor will run it continuously till you run out of paint or can't hold the gun any longer. A 2-HP compressor will go on and off while you're spraying. Karl > But there is something to be said for not pumping a big tank up to 175 psi > if you don't need it. I just can't imagine not needing it. Even a small > die grinder typically needs at least 4 cfm @ 90 psi; which translates to > some 28 scfm in compressor-speak. And even if I could afford a 28 cfm > compressor, I don't have enough electrical power to turn it! > > Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 20 21:43:53 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:43:53 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081121044353.PNZU7376.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > That's not quite right. The die grinder needs its air supply > at 90 PSI, but in a minute it will exhaust 4 CFM of free air, > not 4 CFM of 90 PSI air or 28 CFM of free air. http://www.b2bchinasources.com/showroom.php?c=6707&f=5&p=0000052126 Note where it says "4.5 cfm (32 scfm)". Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Nov 20 21:46:29 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:46:29 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081121044632.QVRE14434.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> Here's another chart of scfm for typical air tools. http://www.airmax.ca/PDFs/Air%20Tool%20Consumption.pdf Randall From coles at colesnurseries.com Fri Nov 21 03:55:08 2008 From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:55:08 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing Ridge Board in garage Message-ID: <000d01c94bc7$9eca4140$0c01a8c0@Fest> We have an older garage on the property that was added to over time. The wood used must have been whatever they had around at the time. It's pretty solid and a good structure but the ridge board looks like a piece of 1x6 flooring and is cracked. Are there any recommendations on how to fix this ?? Thanks, Dan From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Fri Nov 21 06:32:06 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:32:06 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing Ridge Board in garage In-Reply-To: <000d01c94bc7$9eca4140$0c01a8c0@Fest> References: <000d01c94bc7$9eca4140$0c01a8c0@Fest> Message-ID: <4926B856.30500@HorneSystemsTx.com> Dan, I don't know where you are located, so I don't know about snow or wind load in your area, but here in Texas where we get wind, but not much snow, we do the following. If there is sheathing over the rafters I wouldn't worry about a cracked ridge board. In this type of roof its main job is to hold the rafters in place until the sheathing goes on. If you just have purlins on top of the rafters, I'd suggest cutting blocks that will fit between the rafters and nail them to each side of the ridge board, including into the rafters. Again, the ridge board is there to hold the rafters spaced as needed until other structural wood is nailed to the rafters. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc): > We have an older garage on the property that was added to over time. The wood > used must have been whatever they had around at the time. It's pretty solid > and a good structure but the ridge board looks like a piece of 1x6 flooring > and is cracked. Are there any recommendations on how to fix this ?? > Thanks, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.7/1799 - Release Date: 11/19/2008 8:58 AM > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 06:38:00 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:38:00 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors References: <20081121044353.PNZU7376.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: I can't address the meaning of the Chinese website's specs. My electric die grinder has at least the power of most air ones, and it uses a few amps at 110 volts. So are you telling us that this wonderful piece of Chinese technology takes the equivalent of over 25 amps at 220 volts ? I don't want to belabor the point further, and I bet most of the list doesn't either. For anyone interested, there are lots of good explanatinois on the Internet. Here's oone, and it includes not only an explanation of CFM and the various misconceptions, but it also goes into horsepower. It includes an example of evealuating a Chinese brand's claimed performance vs reality. http://www.truetex.com/aircompressors.htm To the CFM point, I suggest the fifth paragraph in the "example" section: "When a compressor pumps one "CFM" (cubic foot per minute), that means the intake port inhaled one cubic foot of "free air" (air at atmospheric pressure). (Note: A CFM does not mean in any sense the compressed volume.) So the unit really measures the mass of air flowing per minute, not volume. Some people labor under a stubborn misundertanding that these units refer to the flow of compressed volume (as opposed to free air volume), but this is flatly wrong." Back when I worked in the paint spray industry, we assembled and sold the range of Quincy compressors (in addition to a few little diaphragm ones for airbrushes, etc.). That was the real Quincy, not whatever the name has become today after being sold. We always preferred the term "free air", as it's easiest to understand. SCFM is sort of a standard, but everyone who uses it tends to mean something different. In the end, it means free air under atmospheric pressure and normal temperature and humidity. Karl >> That's not quite right. The die grinder needs its air supply >> at 90 PSI, but in a minute it will exhaust 4 CFM of free air, >> not 4 CFM of 90 PSI air or 28 CFM of free air. > > http://www.b2bchinasources.com/showroom.php?c=6707&f=5&p=0000052126 > > Note where it says "4.5 cfm (32 scfm)". > > Randall From jamesf at groupwbench.org Fri Nov 21 06:47:38 2008 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:47:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing Ridge Board in garage In-Reply-To: <000d01c94bc7$9eca4140$0c01a8c0@Fest> References: <000d01c94bc7$9eca4140$0c01a8c0@Fest> Message-ID: <1CC15D84-5999-42FB-ADCB-C3B96EC0742F@groupwbench.org> On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:55 AM, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote: > We have an older garage on the property that was added to over > time. The wood > used must have been whatever they had around at the time. It's > pretty solid > and a good structure but the ridge board looks like a piece of 1x6 > flooring > and is cracked. Are there any recommendations on how to fix this ?? Typically, the 1-by ridge boards don't provide any support; it just gives the rafters a place to nail to and keeps them in line during construction. Though I have seen buildings where the ridge board bore a lot of the roof weight and was sized and supported accordingly. Depending on how's it's cracked, I'd just sister in a piece of 2x6 between the rafters, and nail through the rafters to it (or vice versa if there's no room). jim From mark at sccaprepared.com Fri Nov 21 08:12:45 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:12:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: <20081121044353.PNZU7376.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 21 Nov 2008, Karl Vacek wrote: > I can't address the meaning of the Chinese website's specs. My electric > die grinder has at least the power of most air ones, and it uses a few > amps at 110 volts. So are you telling us that this wonderful piece of > Chinese technology takes the equivalent of over 25 amps at 220 volts ? > > I don't want to belabor the point further, and I bet most of the list > doesn't either. For anyone interested, there are lots of good > explanatinois on the Internet. Here's oone, and it includes not only an > explanation of CFM and the various misconceptions, but it also goes into > horsepower. It includes an example of evealuating a Chinese brand's > claimed performance vs reality. > > http://www.truetex.com/aircompressors.htm I'm interested. I'll check out that link in a minute, but what I'd really like to see is just what I need to have in terms of compressor specifications that will run my 3" cutoff (looks like a die grinder) continuously. There are two on HF's website that look like it... One is rated at 5 cfm @ 90 psi and the other is rated at 17 scfm @ 90 psi... Ditto a sand blasting cabinet (which TP tools says takes between 10 and 15 cfm at 80 psi). Again, this is all so I can decide if I should buy a significantly cheaper single stage compressor that says it does 18.5 cfm @ 100 psi, 150 psi max, vs. a two stage that says it does 19.1 cfm @ 125 psi, 175 psi max. I don't want to waste money, but I also don't want to buy something that I'll wish I hadn't cheaped out on. Thanks! Mark From lspector at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 08:19:06 2008 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:19:06 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: References: <20081121044353.PNZU7376.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <167503c10811210719q18639d03m518e5890230fec03@mail.gmail.com> Since you're talking about continuous use here, make sure you check the duty cycle of the compressor. Many of the cheaper ones are <50%. The Ingersoll Rand T30 that I bought a few years ago has a 100% duty cycle, you can keep going for as long as you can stand the noise! I'm assuming that the Quincy is also 100%, not sure about the rest. -Larry On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > > I'm interested. I'll check out that link in a minute, but what I'd really > like to see is just what I need to have in terms of compressor > specifications that will run my 3" cutoff (looks like a die grinder) > continuously. There are two on HF's website that look like it... One is > rated at 5 cfm @ 90 psi and the other is rated at 17 scfm @ 90 psi... > > Ditto a sand blasting cabinet (which TP tools says takes between 10 and 15 > cfm at 80 psi). > > Again, this is all so I can decide if I should buy a significantly cheaper > single stage compressor that says it does 18.5 cfm @ 100 psi, 150 psi max, > vs. a two stage that says it does 19.1 cfm @ 125 psi, 175 psi max. > > I don't want to waste money, but I also don't want to buy something that > I'll wish I hadn't cheaped out on. > > Thanks! > > Mark From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Nov 21 08:58:19 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:58:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081121155820.EBHF27329.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall> Karl Vacek wrote: > So are you > telling us that this wonderful piece of Chinese technology > takes the equivalent of over 25 amps at 220 volts ? Effectively, yes. Air tools are terribly inefficient from an energy standpoint; just look at how hot the compressor gets. All that heat (and liquefied water, etc.) is energy that is NOT going into the tool. And the air exhausted from the tool is still at considerably more than atmospheric pressure (until it expands at the tool exhaust, of course). > To the CFM point, I suggest the fifth paragraph in the > "example" section: > > "When a compressor pumps one "CFM" (cubic foot per minute), I agree entirely ... note please it says "a compressor", NOT "an air tool". Both are rated for cfm at the intake; but the compressor takes in air at lower pressure than the tool does. It's easy enough to measure for yourself. Run your compressor until it shuts off, note the tank pressure, turn off the motor, then start running your choice of air tool continuously. Time how long until the tank pressure drops to some lower pressure. A little simple math will give you approximately how many scfm came out of the tank. Or to put it another way, my 8 cfm compressor has no hope of keeping up with my 4 cfm die grinder when it's used continuously. In less than a minute, even with the compressor running continuously, the pressure is so low that I have to stop and take a break. It's certainly possible that not all air tool makers rate their tools the same way, but I've had the same experience with all sorts of them, including the professional grade paint gun that a (professional) friend of a friend tried to run with my compressor. He refused to ever set foot in my garage again until I got a "real" compressor Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 10:34:19 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:34:19 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors References: <20081121155820.EBHF27329.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <4F6667524F1E4BF285F3591081397956@KARL> You may have the solution to the controversy there. Those Chinese guys are obviously using a 7:1 compression ratio at 90 PSI, a little low but pretty close. They're saying that the tool really needs something like 28 CFM continuously - no argument there, if that's what it really needs. Gotta say, though, I don't think anyof my old original Chicago Pneumatic stuff uses anything like that kind of air. But it's OLD, from before that became Chinese Pneumatic. Bottom line is that for most home shop uses even horrendous air usage is OK. Certainly a DA sander or air file or air drill will work fine, and you don't usually keep them going for hours straight. You're always stopping to do this or that every few minutes anyway. On your particular compressor and the professional spray gun... A "real" 2-HP compressor will run a conventional spray gun continuously and may even shut off occasionally, depending on the atomizing air pressures used, air nozzle, etc. Can we now change this into a Chinese tool-bashing thread ?? ;-) > It's certainly possible that not all air tool makers rate their tools the > same way, but I've had the same experience with all sorts of them, > including > the professional grade paint gun that a (professional) friend of a friend > tried to run with my compressor. He refused to ever set foot in my garage > again until I got a "real" compressor > > Randall From drew at DasRogges.com Fri Nov 21 11:47:34 2008 From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:47:34 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop wall covering Message-ID: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> I'm moving into a new show/garage that has normal drywall as the wall coverings. I think that in the machine shop part of the shop I'm going to be slinging around a fair amount of oil and would like to cover the sheetrock with some kind of an oil proof or at least oil resistant covering. I had originally thought of using thin shower board from Home Despot. However the contractor that's been working of the new house had mentioned FRP (fiberglass reinforced panels) which is also available from the box stores. One thing I don't like about the FRP is that the side that faces the room is textured and I was hoping to be able to treat all the walls as a giant whiteboard. The backside of the FRP is pretty smooth but with a tiny bit of a cloth like texture. This might be a good surface to the room side of the walls but I don't know if the adhesive used to attach the stuff to the wall will stick to the heavily textured side. Has anyone used either FRP or shower board on the walls of a shop? Any other suggestions? Drew From cak at dimebank.com Fri Nov 21 11:51:56 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:51:56 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop wall covering In-Reply-To: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> References: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> Message-ID: <4927034C.9000002@dimebank.com> I've used showerboard, for exactly the reasons you mention. The final result rocks for all the reasons you mention. Installation can be a royal nuisance. You can buy plastic strips to go between the sheet edges and the corners, which looks more finished. I used contact cement to put it over plywood. I might be tempted to use screws with large washers in a future version, though it won't look nearly as nice. From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Nov 21 12:21:53 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:21:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing Ridge Board in garage In-Reply-To: <000d01c94bc7$9eca4140$0c01a8c0@Fest> Message-ID: <699411.6444.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A ridge board is actually not a key structural element, and roofs can actually be built without one. Unless pieces are falling off, you can probably leave it as-is. My old house's garage (built in the 20's) has the same material for the ridge board, which was also used for the main house's siding and subflooring. Doug --- On Fri, 11/21/08, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote: > From: Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) > Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing Ridge Board in garage > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 5:55 AM > We have an older garage on the property that was added to > over time. The wood > used must have been whatever they had around at the time. > It's pretty solid > and a good structure but the ridge board looks like a piece > of 1x6 flooring > and is cracked. Are there any recommendations on how to > fix this ?? > Thanks, > Dan From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Nov 21 12:30:37 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:30:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop wall covering In-Reply-To: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> References: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> Message-ID: <93065CAC8A3B47528643910A8825C86A@jdnet.deere.com> > Has anyone used either FRP or shower board on the walls of a shop? I've nailed up a few sheets of shower board behind the lathe. Hadn't thought about using it as whiteboard (hard to reach back there anyway), but so far it's held up well against flying chips, cutting oil, etc. And I've got several charts taped to it. Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:53:01 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:53:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop wall covering In-Reply-To: <4927034C.9000002@dimebank.com> References: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> <4927034C.9000002@dimebank.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811211253u3fa264d2q2f8cc404f1d790c0@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > I've used showerboard, for exactly the reasons you mention. The final result > rocks for all the reasons you mention. Installation can be a royal nuisance. > You can buy plastic strips to go between the sheet edges and the corners, > which looks more finished. I used contact cement to put it over plywood. > > I might be tempted to use screws with large washers in a future version, > though it won't look nearly as nice. I used to work with a guy who had five sides of his home office in showerboard. It was very nice to be able to use any convient bit of wall to scribble diagrams and the like. I'm pretty sure his stuff was glued to existing drywall. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jdinnis at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 13:56:24 2008 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:56:24 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop wall covering In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40811211253u3fa264d2q2f8cc404f1d790c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> <4927034C.9000002@dimebank.com> <2400a5d40811211253u3fa264d2q2f8cc404f1d790c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Never done it, but always wanted to hang big sheets of thin Plexi or Lexan ofer my garage walls. It would be oil resistant, and with a white drywall backing would make a fine whiteboard as well. On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 2:53 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: >> I've used showerboard, for exactly the reasons you mention. The final result >> rocks for all the reasons you mention. Installation can be a royal nuisance. >> You can buy plastic strips to go between the sheet edges and the corners, >> which looks more finished. I used contact cement to put it over plywood. >> >> I might be tempted to use screws with large washers in a future version, >> though it won't look nearly as nice. > > I -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Nov 21 14:34:20 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:34:20 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] single vs. dual stage compressors In-Reply-To: <4F6667524F1E4BF285F3591081397956@KARL> References: <20081121155820.EBHF27329.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall> <4F6667524F1E4BF285F3591081397956@KARL> Message-ID: <0B1F0B23086F4C54AC6C9598C3D9A0AA@jdnet.deere.com> > Those > Chinese guys are > obviously using a 7:1 compression ratio at 90 PSI, a little > low but pretty close. Yup. One atmosphere is about 14.7 psi, so 90 psig is 104.7 psia or 7.12 atmospheres. > Gotta > say, though, I don't think anyof my old original Chicago > Pneumatic stuff > uses anything like that kind of air. Could be. But a friend let me use his shop once to work on my motorhome, and his fairly old Chicago Pneumatic die grinder kept his air compressor pretty busy. Dunno what it's specs were, but it was the typical 120 gallon, 2-stage, 3-phase setup normally seen in auto shops. I didn't time it, but I'd guess it ran at least 1/3 of the time, until I was done. And I wasn't even running the die grinder at full throttle much of the time. > and you don't > usually keep them going for hours straight. You're always > stopping to do > this or that every few minutes anyway. Maybe you work faster than I do. With both the die grinder (usually with a wire brush mounted) and the blast cabinet, I mostly have to stop to wait for the compressor to catch up. > A "real" 2-HP compressor My old compressor runs on an ordinary 110v outlet, of COURSE it's not really 2 hp (although I think the label on the side actually says 2.5hp ). And it was made in Minnesota (or at least by a company that was headquartered there). > Can we now change this into a Chinese tool-bashing thread ?? ;-) Sorry, I calls em like I sees em. It's the American companies that pioneered lying about ratings. Horsepower, watts, cfm are all clearly defined concepts; until a marketing guy gets ahold of them. Note that it was the "Chinese guys" telling the truth ... Randall From drew at DasRogges.com Fri Nov 21 14:41:25 2008 From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:41:25 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop wall covering In-Reply-To: References: <49270246.40507@DasRogges.com> <4927034C.9000002@dimebank.com> <2400a5d40811211253u3fa264d2q2f8cc404f1d790c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49272B05.3010209@DasRogges.com> Thanks to all for the ideas on shop wall covering. It looks like I'm going to go with shower board screwed to the wall. Screwed in case I need to get into the wall to add more power or maybe even air. John Innis wrote: > Never done it, but always wanted to hang big sheets of thin Plexi or > Lexan ofer my garage walls. It would be oil resistant, and with a > white drywall backing would make a fine whiteboard as well. From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 16:07:02 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:07:02 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars Message-ID: Time to replace spark plugs in the everyday cars. Close to 60K on each and never missed a beat since we've had them, but it seems like a good idea - and yes, I've regretted that statement before =8~0 Since plain old OEM plugs seem to hold up so well nowadays that's my usual choice. Is there any other advantage to platinums besides life ? Is there anything new in plugs that's worthwhile ? I saw some double-side-electrode plugs at one of the chain parts stores the other day (don't remember the brand). They looked like aviation massive-electrode plugs. But don't multiple electrodes require an ignition system to match their power needs ? The cars - 1999 Ford Mustang Cobra with a DOHC 4.6 L, and 2005 Yukon with a 6.0 L Thanks ! Karl Life is like a jar of jalapenos -- What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !! From ericm at lne.com Fri Nov 21 16:28:34 2008 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:28:34 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081121232834.GB19069@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 05:07:02PM -0600, Karl Vacek wrote: > Time to replace spark plugs in the everyday cars. Close to 60K on each and > never missed a beat since we've had them, but it seems like a good idea - and > yes, I've regretted that statement before =8~0 Are you sure its time? Lots of car now come with "100k" mile plugs. I am pretty sure the Yukon is one- my 2001 GMC C3 pickup had them. > Since plain old OEM plugs seem to hold up so well nowadays that's my usual > choice. Is there any other advantage to platinums besides life ? They handle high temps better and stay sharp longer. That makes it easier for the spark to form. > Is there anything new in plugs that's worthwhile ? I saw some > double-side-electrode plugs at one of the chain parts stores the other day > (don't remember the brand). They looked like aviation massive-electrode > plugs. But don't multiple electrodes require an ignition system to match > their power needs ? No. Generally the spark goes to which ever ground electrode has the lowest resistance. If your car calls for multiple electrode plugs, get them. Otherwise don't bother. Avoid plugs that aren't from well established manufacturers. I know a guy who put Splitfires in a vintage Indian and melted a piston. Apparently they run hotter than indicated. Oops. I have had good luck with NGKs, ACs and Bosch plugs. Eric From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 16:35:48 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:35:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > Time to replace spark plugs in the everyday cars. Close to 60K on each and > never missed a beat since we've had them, but it seems like a good idea - and > yes, I've regretted that statement before =8~0 > > Since plain old OEM plugs seem to hold up so well nowadays that's my usual > choice. Is there any other advantage to platinums besides life ? Both the cars you're working on have platinum plugs from the factory. (Well, they're likely iridium or yttrium or palladium, but the idea is the same.) Use what the factory used. Make sure you get the correct part number; modern spark plugs are pre-gapped (check them, and return them if they're wrong, though) and are not adjustable. (The electrondes break) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 17:10:19 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:10:19 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> Thanks, Dave -- And if they're platinum or whatever, I guess I'll check them first. They should still be fine, right ? I suppose blasting those plugs is a bad idea, in that it'll round off the corners where the spark is formed ? Karl > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: >> Time to replace spark plugs in the everyday cars. Close to 60K on each >> and >> never missed a beat since we've had them, but it seems like a good idea - >> and >> yes, I've regretted that statement before =8~0 >> >> Since plain old OEM plugs seem to hold up so well nowadays that's my >> usual >> choice. Is there any other advantage to platinums besides life ? > > Both the cars you're working on have platinum plugs from the factory. > (Well, they're likely iridium or yttrium or palladium, but the idea is > the same.) Use what the factory used. Make sure you get the correct > part number; modern spark plugs are pre-gapped (check them, and return > them if they're wrong, though) and are not adjustable. (The > electrondes break) > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From cak at dimebank.com Fri Nov 21 17:16:00 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:16:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars In-Reply-To: <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com> <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> Message-ID: <49274F40.509@dimebank.com> Karl Vacek wrote: > Thanks, Dave -- > > And if they're platinum or whatever, I guess I'll check them first. > They should still be fine, right ? > > I suppose blasting those plugs is a bad idea, in that it'll round off > the corners where the spark is formed ? Blasting plugs was never a good idea :-) From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 17:38:45 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:38:45 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com> <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> <49274F40.509@dimebank.com> Message-ID: > Blasting plugs was never a good idea :-) Really ?? Why does Champion (among others) still sell plug reconditioning equipment ?? During the several years that I was blighted with a Mazda RX-2 (from new), I'd have gone broke without a plug blaster. That lovely piece of superior Japanese craftsmanship fouled plugs at least every couple of weeks. No magic available from the factory wizards back then - just clean the plugs. But more to the point, blasting is the main part of standard reconditioning for aircraft plugs. Along with cleaning the deposits out from between the outer shell and the center electrode insulator, with an electric vibrating tool - a vibro-engraver with a special bit. During the reciprocating-engine days, the military and airlines made a huge business for the reconditioners. It's still standard for us little guys. Since typical shielded aircraft plugs cost nearly $20 apiece even with a good deal (you can spend nearly $30 if you don't shop) and I use 14 of them, replacing all of them annually would cost more than I pay my IA to sign my logbook after I do the annual. You should keep the firing corners relatively sharp, but even if you don't do that they work just fine till they're pretty well eroded away, by which time they're all rounded off everywhere. I know some people who do indeed replace plugs every annual - they're called wealthy. I also know some guys who won't put a new plug in before blasting it. Since pulling over onto a cloud isn't an option, we tend to be pretty careful to do what makes the engine run most reliably. Karl From cak at dimebank.com Fri Nov 21 17:45:59 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:45:59 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars In-Reply-To: References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com> <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> <49274F40.509@dimebank.com> Message-ID: <49275647.9020709@dimebank.com> OK, Karl, I don't know about aircraft plugs and the reconditioners that are sold for them. The little sandblaster bags that JC Whitney sold were a bad idea. Yeah, they removed all the crud that your Wankel engine dropped on them (I had one of those, too!). But every time you used it, you rounded off the edges and weakened the spark... From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 17:51:04 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:51:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars In-Reply-To: <49275647.9020709@dimebank.com> References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com> <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> <49274F40.509@dimebank.com> <49275647.9020709@dimebank.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811211651k75551a45p58524db63d2c1980@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > OK, Karl, I don't know about aircraft plugs and the reconditioners that are > sold for them. The little sandblaster bags that JC Whitney sold were a bad > idea. > I've got one of those. I use it for the plugs in the tractor and the Land-Rover. > Yeah, they removed all the crud that your Wankel engine dropped on them (I > had one of those, too!). But every time you used it, you rounded off the > edges and weakened the spark... Which is why you file them (with a spark plug file, duh) after you plast them. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 17:55:25 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:55:25 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com><3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> <49274F40.509@dimebank.com> <49275647.9020709@dimebank.com> Message-ID: Rounding isn't an issue if you file (or preferably stone) the electrodes carefully after blasting. Those little blasters do the same thing that (that portion of) the $1,000 Champion machine does. It's also got something like a Model T coil inside to functionally spark-test the plugs, and some pressurize the plug to spark-test it under more realistic conditions. But it's still a sandblaster. Now if someone blasts plugs and then screws them right back in without doing anything else, after a while the plugs get pretty round. But then I'm sure some guys don't take any care to remove all the blasting grit from a newly-cleaned plug either. Used properly, it's a great tool. Karl > OK, Karl, I don't know about aircraft plugs and the reconditioners that > are sold for them. The little sandblaster bags that JC Whitney sold were a > bad idea. > > Yeah, they removed all the crud that your Wankel engine dropped on them (I > had one of those, too!). But every time you used it, you rounded off the > edges and weakened the spark... From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 18:00:52 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:00:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars In-Reply-To: <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com> <3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> Message-ID: <2400a5d40811211700i7bffc333q54d5dfc3cb30723d@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > > Thanks, Dave -- > > And if they're platinum or whatever, I guess I'll check them first. They > should still be fine, right ? > > I suppose blasting those plugs is a bad idea, in that it'll round off the > corners where the spark is formed ? Assuming you're not having problems with them missing, or hard starting, yes. But if I pulled them, I'd replace them. You're somewhere approaching the end of the expected life, they're a pain to get at, and even if you buy 'em from a dealer, they're less than airplane plugs. Be certain to follow the torque specs, as the ford engine is known for having plugs not come out. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Nov 21 18:13:15 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:13:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49275CAB.5080007@xxiii.com> Karl Vacek wrote: > Since plain old OEM plugs seem to hold up so well nowadays that's my usual > choice. Is there any other advantage to platinums besides life ? Platinums, etc last longer but do not perform any better. On my 4-cylinder Nissans, they were trivial to get to. So I preferred to by plain ones (NGK for < $2.00/ea) and replace them more frequently. If labor is an issue, I'd get the fancy ones. > Is there anything new in plugs that's worthwhile ? I saw some > double-side-electrode plugs at one of the chain parts stores the other day > (don't remember the brand). They looked like aviation massive-electrode Some opinons and wisdom from the Nissan guys: http://www.se-r.net/engine/platinum_copper_ngk.html http://www.se-r.net/engine/ignition.html http://www.se-r.net/engine/specialty_spark_plugs.html I'm a big fan of NGK. They seem to have an unusual ability to just run at the correct heat, and are very tolerant of different driving styles and conditions. > The cars - 1999 Ford Mustang Cobra with a DOHC 4.6 L, and 2005 Yukon with a > 6.0 L I'm sure there are Mustang sites out there with info on what works well. Dunno about GMC. -Wayne From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 18:18:31 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:18:31 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars References: <2400a5d40811211535m4a9c1a08v9bdeca7949f91452@mail.gmail.com><3C2A497577C440468A9B532FFB044B94@KARL> <2400a5d40811211700i7bffc333q54d5dfc3cb30723d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2646A7AF5A45455794A703377986C0D7@KARL> Thanks again Dave - I suppose I'll head on over the the Delco and Motorcraft distributor in the morning then. Both cars are running perfectly, but I want to give them a little attention before it starts snowing seriously. Maybe even the dreaded gas-in-the-face fuel filter replacement might be in the offing for the Yukon. God I hate to do that job - smelling gas on my hands and clothes all day afterward too. >From what I hear the talking heads on TV say (even noted automotive authority Geraldo Rivera took a shot at GM's designs and reliability this morning), it sounds like my GM and Ford cars are the only ones in the world that hold up well. I want to keep it that way. ;-) Karl > Assuming you're not having problems with them missing, or hard > starting, yes. But if I pulled them, I'd replace them. You're > somewhere approaching the end of the expected life, they're a pain to > get at, and even if you buy 'em from a dealer, they're less than > airplane plugs. Be certain to follow the torque specs, as the ford > engine is known for having plugs not come out. > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 19:42:54 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:42:54 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spark plugs in regular cars References: <49275CAB.5080007@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <19AF0F6D05F745DEBE3347B922AAE43C@KARL> Thanks for all the thoughtful suggestions, guys. What a helpful list !! Karl From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 19:54:57 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:54:57 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" Message-ID: A couple of years ago, Costco had sets of Crescent brand stainless steel "Gear Wrench"-style combination wrenches. 7 wrenches for $19.95. 5/16 to 11/16 - if they went another couple wrenches larger it's be even better, but these are fine as is. Flat ratchet on one end, open-end on the other. These are completely flat wrenches rather than bent or offset, so they don't have or need a reversing feature - just turn the wrench over. They're fairly thin and get in lots of places. Fine-tooth ratchet too. Sadly, I only bought one set for myself, and never really tried them for a long time. The open end part is a little large and clunky, so I just left them in the package for a year or more. By the time I began to use them, it was too late to buy more. Has anyone seen these recently ? The stainless construction is a great feature for slobs like me who occasionally get a wrench wet and don't wipe it really well before setting it down - often on the floor ;-) Alternatively, what brands of these things are good ? The ones I see at Sneers and Sawbucks seem awfully thick, and wouldn't get onto a nut or bolt head anywhere near a vertical surface. Thanks ! Karl Life is like a jar of jalapenos -- What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !! From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Nov 21 20:28:49 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:28:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" References: Message-ID: <1966A3A73FC14246B5A14D530A784191@niolon> Karl, Sears sells the gear wrench brand in swivel head, stubby and standard flat like you have... they run them on sale regularly... right now I think...check sears.com john Everyone seems normal until you get to know them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" To: Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 8:54 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" >A couple of years ago, Costco had sets of Crescent brand stainless steel >"Gear > Wrench"-style combination wrenches. 7 wrenches for $19.95. 5/16 to > 11/16 - > if they went another couple wrenches larger it's be even better, but these > are > fine as is. Flat ratchet on one end, open-end on the other. These are > completely flat wrenches rather than bent or offset, so they don't have or > need a reversing feature - just turn the wrench over. They're fairly thin > and > get in lots of places. Fine-tooth ratchet too. > > Sadly, I only bought one set for myself, and never really tried them for a > long time. The open end part is a little large and clunky, so I just left > them in the package for a year or more. By the time I began to use them, > it > was too late to buy more. > > Has anyone seen these recently ? The stainless construction is a great > feature for slobs like me who occasionally get a wrench wet and don't wipe > it > really well before setting it down - often on the floor ;-) > > Alternatively, what brands of these things are good ? The ones I see at > Sneers and Sawbucks seem awfully thick, and wouldn't get onto a nut or > bolt > head anywhere near a vertical surface. > > Thanks ! > Karl > > > > Life is like a jar of jalapenos -- > What you do today might > burn your butt tomorrow !! > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/21/2008 9:37 AM From bjzwissler at comcast.net Fri Nov 21 20:35:27 2008 From: bjzwissler at comcast.net (Ben Zwissler) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:35:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5F5FAA944D6F4548AD18E335D8735C1E@LivingRoomPC> I bought a set last year at Christmas at Sears. They had both flat and angle, english and metric. Ben Zwissler bjzwissler at comcast.net Columbus, IN 1966 TR-4A IRS 1973 MG Midget 1980 TR-8 2003 Honda ST1300 -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 9:55 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" A couple of years ago, Costco had sets of Crescent brand stainless steel "Gear Wrench"-style combination wrenches. 7 wrenches for $19.95. 5/16 to 11/16 - if they went another couple wrenches larger it's be even better, but these are fine as is. Flat ratchet on one end, open-end on the other. These are completely flat wrenches rather than bent or offset, so they don't have or need a reversing feature - just turn the wrench over. They're fairly thin and get in lots of places. Fine-tooth ratchet too. Sadly, I only bought one set for myself, and never really tried them for a long time. The open end part is a little large and clunky, so I just left them in the package for a year or more. By the time I began to use them, it was too late to buy more. Has anyone seen these recently ? The stainless construction is a great feature for slobs like me who occasionally get a wrench wet and don't wipe it really well before setting it down - often on the floor ;-) Alternatively, what brands of these things are good ? The ones I see at Sneers and Sawbucks seem awfully thick, and wouldn't get onto a nut or bolt head anywhere near a vertical surface. Thanks ! Karl Life is like a jar of jalapenos -- What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !! Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Nov 21 21:42:31 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:42:31 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" References: <1966A3A73FC14246B5A14D530A784191@niolon> Message-ID: <71BA577A93114E17B6748AF6203495CB@KARL> Thanks, guys, but the wrenches I'm looking for are stainless steel, "Crescent" brand (though maybe someone else also carries/carried them branded for them), and they're thinner and fit in places better than the flat ratchet wrenches Sears sells. I've Googled for "stainless steel crescent ratchet wrench" and found something different and neatly $100, but they're not the ones I have. Oh well... Thanks! Karl ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" To: "shop-talk" ; "Karl Vacek" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" > Karl, > > Sears sells the gear wrench brand in swivel head, stubby and standard flat > like you have... they run them on sale regularly... right now I > think...check sears.com > > john > > > > Everyone seems normal until you get to know them. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Vacek" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 8:54 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" > > >>A couple of years ago, Costco had sets of Crescent brand stainless steel >>"Gear >> Wrench"-style combination wrenches. 7 wrenches for $19.95. 5/16 to >> 11/16 - >> if they went another couple wrenches larger it's be even better, but >> these are >> fine as is. Flat ratchet on one end, open-end on the other. These are >> completely flat wrenches rather than bent or offset, so they don't have >> or >> need a reversing feature - just turn the wrench over. They're fairly >> thin and >> get in lots of places. Fine-tooth ratchet too. >> >> Sadly, I only bought one set for myself, and never really tried them for >> a >> long time. The open end part is a little large and clunky, so I just >> left >> them in the package for a year or more. By the time I began to use them, >> it >> was too late to buy more. >> >> Has anyone seen these recently ? The stainless construction is a great >> feature for slobs like me who occasionally get a wrench wet and don't >> wipe it >> really well before setting it down - often on the floor ;-) >> >> Alternatively, what brands of these things are good ? The ones I see at >> Sneers and Sawbucks seem awfully thick, and wouldn't get onto a nut or >> bolt >> head anywhere near a vertical surface. >> >> Thanks ! >> Karl >> >> >> >> Life is like a jar of jalapenos -- >> What you do today might >> burn your butt tomorrow !! >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/21/2008 > 9:37 AM > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Nov 21 22:29:58 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:29:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081122052959.QKGI24754.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > Has anyone seen these recently ? Do you mean these ? http://tinyurl.com/5sejst > The stainless construction I couldn't find any reference to Crescent brand in stainless, only chrome (like all the others). > Alternatively, what brands of these things are good ? The > ones I see at Sneers and Sawbucks Worth noting perhaps, that Sears sells effectively the same product but in two different forms. They carry both GearWrench brand, and Craftsman. I like the GearWrench ones; in fact I just picked up a partial set on flea-bay (which still had the 4 sizes I use most, 7/16 - 5/8) in addition to the 4 or 5 sets I already have (except for the long flat 7/16", which I think got left in a parking lot in Tulsa). The Craftsman ones are thicker. > seem awfully thick, and > wouldn't get onto a nut or bolt head anywhere near a vertical surface. Hard to say from an illustration, but I don't think the ones shown in the document above are any thinner than my flat GearWrench ones. http://tinyurl.com/5eob7u But the reversible angled ones are thicker. (As are the really cheap ones from Horrible Freight.) Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Nov 22 06:09:30 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:09:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" In-Reply-To: <20081122052959.QKGI24754.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <590023.1679.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have 4 of that exact Crescent model (3/8 to 9/16") that I bought 3 or 4 years ago at a hardware store that is no longer in business :-( I wish I had a few of the next larger sizes. I am very happy with them. They were pretty reasonably priced, too. Doug --- On Sat, 11/22/08, Randall wrote: > From: Randall > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 12:29 AM > > Has anyone seen these recently ? > > Do you mean these ? > http://tinyurl.com/5sejst From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Nov 22 08:29:24 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:29:24 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" References: <20081122052959.QKGI24754.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <91E07B79B2E24C4693BAAF6C588227F8@KARL> I've Googled all over the place. Sears doesn't show these. Neither does Cooper Tools (who owns Crescent). Apparently some sort of Shanghai Specials that Crescent put their name on, but in this case (so far) they're worthy of the name. These are really stainless. Not polished, not chromed, just a brushed finish. No reverse button - in fact, they apparently snap together and then good luck in ever getting them apart for service. Because they don't reverse, you flip them over to reverse direction. And to facilitate figuring out which way it goes, the box end is offset so one side of the outer circle is tangent with the side of the shank of the wrench. _____0 as opposed to -------0 Oh well, looks like these are "unobtanium". Any others that have relatively thin rims, to get onto nuts close to vertical surfaces ! > Do you mean these ? > http://tinyurl.com/5sejst > >> The stainless construction > > I couldn't find any reference to Crescent brand in stainless, only chrome > (like all the others). From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Nov 22 08:33:31 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:33:31 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" References: <20081122052959.QKGI24754.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> <91E07B79B2E24C4693BAAF6C588227F8@KARL> Message-ID: <29DE42DA5B8E46A7B247A317824AB915@KARL> I meant that as a question, not the way it came out... Are there any gear wrenches that have relatively thin rims, to get onto nuts close to vertical surfaces ?? Karl From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Nov 22 08:49:58 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 07:49:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" In-Reply-To: <91E07B79B2E24C4693BAAF6C588227F8@KARL> Message-ID: <20081122154959.VEGR24754.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > Any others that have relatively thin rims, to get onto nuts > close to vertical surfaces ! The original GearWrench ones are the thinnest I've seen. Randall From mark at sccaprepared.com Sat Nov 22 09:14:04 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:14:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" In-Reply-To: <71BA577A93114E17B6748AF6203495CB@KARL> References: <1966A3A73FC14246B5A14D530A784191@niolon> <71BA577A93114E17B6748AF6203495CB@KARL> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 21 Nov 2008, Karl Vacek wrote: > Thanks, guys, but the wrenches I'm looking for are stainless steel, > "Crescent" brand (though maybe someone else also carries/carried them > branded for them), and they're thinner and fit in places better than the > flat ratchet wrenches Sears sells. These aren't the same thing, basically? http://www.gearwrench.com/catalog/wrenches/ratcheting/combination/ I have full sets of gearwrenches, and its hard to imagine that something is going to be a lot thinner than that head. I don't know if they still have the best prices, but I got my stuff here: http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/TTW360.html They have the full sets, unlike sears, and at least used to be some of the best prices around. Mark From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Nov 22 09:48:18 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:48:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Crescent stainless "gear wrenches" References: <20081122052959.QKGI24754.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> <91E07B79B2E24C4693BAAF6C588227F8@KARL> Message-ID: <738EA7A3CCAB46E5BDF54023D3B2D068@niolon> I've got a set of Armstrong 'flat' gear head wrenches... they are thinner than the gear wrenches and will handle some torque. I don't particularly like the flat wrenches... there is no room for your hand and it's a knuckle skinner sometimes... I much prefer a little angle on the head... that being said the flex heads sometimes are just "too" flex for me... but in certain applications they are all that will work...same for the flats... THAT is exactly why I have a cabinet full of wrenches I guess... anyway... that's what I tell my wife when she ask such silly questions. my obsession began at age 15 when my dad bought me a J.C.Penny 1/2 ratchet set for Christmas... http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/tools/toolpage.htm Armstrongs are in the fifth picture down in the right back corner... all the other 'gear' stuff is gearwrench brand john From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Nov 25 15:57:15 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:57:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII Scanners (again) Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20081125160713.01d67150@cox.net> I know that there has been discussions of ODBII Scanners in the past. I was just at a local autoparts store and saw that Actron has come out with a couple of new scanners: * NEW! Elite AutoScanner. Pro CP9190 * NEW! Elite AutoScanner. CP9185 These are in the $500 price range. I was wondering if anyone has used them, your impressions, etc. I've been using a very nice $4,000 scanner in auto class at the local Community college, but that's way out of my price range. I have an Actron Pocket scanner and like it, but the real scanners are so much nicer. So I was wondering how these new Actron ones might stack up to the aftermarket add on software for a laptop. The other product I've been looking at is the Autotap: http://www.autotap.com/ John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From battmain at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 19:55:16 2008 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII Scanners (again) References: <6.2.5.6.1.20081125160713.01d67150@cox.net> Message-ID: <174717.1002.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have an older autotap unit. It works well for my GM Truck. On the other non GM cars, I get the generic stuff. Some are using CAN bus now and one of my cars uses it. I still get generic stuff, but no where as much info as the truck. It has some quirks, that I've learned to work around. The most annoying one is having to wait while it scans for every possible obd code. I've created some config files and pull those up before I connect to the car. That prevents the annoying scan. Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: John T. Blair To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:57:15 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] ODBII Scanners (again) I know that there has been discussions of ODBII Scanners in the past. I was just at a local autoparts store and saw that Actron has come out with a couple of new scanners: * NEW! Elite AutoScanner. Pro CP9190 * NEW! Elite AutoScanner. CP9185 These are in the $500 price range. I was wondering if anyone has used them, your impressions, etc. I've been using a very nice $4,000 scanner in auto class at the local Community college, but that's way out of my price range. I have an Actron Pocket scanner and like it, but the real scanners are so much nicer. So I was wondering how these new Actron ones might stack up to the aftermarket add on software for a laptop. The other product I've been looking at is the Autotap: http://www.autotap.com/ (snip) From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Nov 27 09:34:33 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:34:33 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] wrenches for sale Message-ID: <26096CA44D7443A59648FE68265586FC@niolon> some time back I'd asked about selling some tools and getting paid by palpay... one of the responders asked why I didn't offer the tools here for sale... .. well the deal never materialized so here you go... snap-on 4 way angle wrenches are back on the block... here's a link to the stuff with a picture of the wrenches john http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25638 Everyone seems normal until you get to know them. From mark at sccaprepared.com Fri Nov 28 17:32:36 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:32:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck? Message-ID: Howdy, Does anyone know if someone makes xmas lights that won't make me want to kill santa? Something that's durable enough to actually work fairly reliably, and where a burnt light doesn't take out the whole strand / section would be good. Seems like something that had taps for the bulb off a common power vs. depending on the bulb to conduct to the next bulb would be a good start. Mark From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Nov 28 22:34:50 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:34:50 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081129053450.MWLM27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> > Something that's durable enough to actually work fairly > reliably, and where a burnt light doesn't take out the whole > strand / section would be good. Seems like something that > had taps for the bulb off a common power vs. depending on the > bulb to conduct to the next bulb would be a good start. I picked up a set of LED lights at Wally World a few years ago, that seem to meet your requirement. In addition, they don't get nearly as hot as the incandescent ones, which reduces the chance of setting the tree on fire. Save power, last longer, what's not to like ? Randall From brabel at comcast.net Sat Nov 29 11:16:16 2008 From: brabel at comcast.net (Bill Rabel) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:16:16 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The incandescent 'mini-lights' have driven me crazy for years. The packaging assures you that if one bulb burns out the whole string will stay lit. However, the problem arises from a broken or intermittent contact where the bulb plugs in. This WILL extinguish a section. I have converted completely to LED strings, as suggested by another response. Every joint is soldered, so there are no fluky contacts. They run cool, use less power, and seem to be more durable than the old incandescent strings. Strangely, they come labeled with the same warning to limit plugging more than three in series. This seems too conservative, as they draw far less current than the old-style bulbs. Fortunately, I have a self-imposed rule to not begin decorating for another couple of weeks. - Bill Rabel Anacortes, WA > Something that's durable enough to actually work fairly reliably, > and where a burnt light doesn't take out the whole strand / section > would be good. Seems like something that had taps for the bulb off > a common power vs. depending on the bulb to conduct to the next bulb > would be a good start. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 12:01:36 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:01:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d40811291101v722c871dxc5d42e919dcb77de@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Bill Rabel wrote: > The incandescent 'mini-lights' have driven me crazy for years. The packaging > assures you that if one bulb burns out the whole string will stay lit. > However, the problem arises from a broken or intermittent contact where the > bulb plugs in. This WILL extinguish a section. > > I have converted completely to LED strings, as suggested by another > response. Every joint is soldered, so there are no fluky contacts. They run > cool, use less power, and seem to be more durable than the old incandescent > strings. Strangely, they come labeled with the same warning to limit > plugging more than three in series. This seems too conservative, as they > draw far less current than the old-style bulbs. > The ones I've seen advertised recently say things like "connect up to 76 in series". (I don't remember the number, but it's absurdly huge. More than 50, less than 100.) > Fortunately, I have a self-imposed rule to not begin decorating for another > couple of weeks. Even more fortunately, I dont' decorate at all. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From trevor at boicey.com Sat Nov 29 15:27:52 2008 From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:27:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Multi zone heating....? Message-ID: <4931C1E8.4060803@boicey.com> I saw a bit of chatting about this in the archives in July, just wondering if any further knowledge could be shared. I just moved to a house that is a certifiable energy pig, almost $4000/y in oil to heat. I of course will also be pursuing traditional solutions, like insulation and such, but I am also interested in zoning it to be able to keep some of the areas at lower temperatures. There is a sunroom that doesn't need to be heated nearly as much, perhaps the basement could go colder at night, etc. Any insight? I am looking at the Honeywell Envirazone systems, probably three zones at first but likely quickly go to six. From mark at bradakis.com Sat Nov 29 20:26:17 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:26:17 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Holiday scam warning Message-ID: <493207D9.8070309@bradakis.com> You may have seen this before, but it might be worth it to remind folks as we get into the holiday shopping season. mjb. *A "heads up" for those men who may be regular Home Depot customers. * ** *Over the last month I became a victim of a clever scam while out shopping. Simply going out to get supplies has turned out to be quite traumatic. Don't be naive enough to think it couldn't happen to you or your friends. * ** *Here's how the scam works: * ** *Two seriously good-looking 20-21 year-old girls come over to your car as you are packing your shopping into the trunk. They both start wiping your windshield with a rag and Windex, with their breasts almost falling out of their skimpy T-shirts. It is impossible not to look. * ** *When you thank them and offer them a tip, they say "No" and instead ask you for a ride to another Home Depot or Lowe's. You agree and they get in the back seat. * ** *On the way, they start undressing. Then one of them climbs over into the front seat and starts crawling all over you, while the other one steals your wallet. * ** *I had my wallet stolen May 4th, 9th, 10th, twice on the 15th, 17th, 20th, & 24th. Also April 1st, 4th, twice on the 8th, three times just yesterday and very likely again this upcoming weekend. * ** *So tell your friends to be careful. * From dhlocker at comcast.net Sun Nov 30 19:00:24 2008 From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:00:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Still building, even in the desert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49334538.8010503@comcast.net> Hi, Eric. I finally took a moment to visit your blog space. Keep up the good work. You are all in our thoughts. (BTW, my nephew just shipped to Iraq with the USMC. Keep the US's best feet forward for us!) Donald. eric at megageek.com wrote: > Hey there all, > > I just wanted to drop you all a line to give you a link to 2 projects I > made for myself here in Iraq. > > Not really excellent quality or anything, but considering they were both > made 100% from scrap and with limited tools, they are quite a testament to > the shop skills we use every day. > > Check them out and let me know what you think! > > http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2008.nsf > > Moose > Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great. From mark at sccaprepared.com Sun Nov 30 19:55:23 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:55:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Bill Rabel wrote: > I have converted completely to LED strings, as suggested by another > response. Every joint is soldered, so there are no fluky contacts. They > run cool, use less power, and seem to be more durable than the old > incandescent strings. Strangely, they come labeled with the same warning > to limit plugging more than three in series. This seems too > conservative, as they draw far less current than the old-style bulbs. So I picked up some LED lights at Target (bonus, no annoying bell ringers). Phillips 60 bulb multi-colored LEDs. These things look identical to regular filament setups. Same style plug, same extra wires as part of the strand, etc. Presumably something is doing a conversion from AC to DC for the leds? Where is that done? There aren't AC LEDs are there? It can't be in the plug itself I don't think, since you can either plug them into the wall or into the end of the next string. The bulbs appear to have a polarity, so it must be in each socket? That's pretty crazy. More importantly, if you pull one of the bulbs, half the strand dies, which isn't really something I want. Are there different styles of LED xmas lights? Mark From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Sun Nov 30 20:09:57 2008 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:09:57 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A full wave bridge rectifier will pass DC with the bonus that it will be the correct polarity. An led is a light emitting diode, so I think it will light for one half of the cycle when AC is applied to it. It have been almost twenty years since I play with that type of thing. Ok, now one of you EE tell him the real story.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves!> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:55:23 -0500> From: mark at sccaprepared.com> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?> > Howdy,> > On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Bill Rabel wrote:> > I have converted completely to LED strings, as suggested by another > > response. Every joint is soldered, so there are no fluky contacts. They > > run cool, use less power, and seem to be more durable than the old > > incandescent strings. Strangely, they come labeled with the same warning > > to limit plugging more than three in series. This seems too > > conservative, as they draw far less current than the old-style bulbs.> > So I picked up some LED lights at Target (bonus, no annoying bell > ringers). Phillips 60 bulb multi-colored LEDs.> > These things look identical to regular filament setups. Same style plug, > same extra wires as part of the strand, etc. Presumably something is doing > a conversion from AC to DC for the leds? Where is that done? There aren't > AC LEDs are there? It can't be in the plug itself I don't think, since you > can either plug them into the wall or into the end of the next string. The > bulbs appear to have a polarity, so it must be in each socket? That's > pretty crazy.> > More importantly, if you pull one of the bulbs, half the strand dies, > which isn't really something I want.> > Are there different styles of LED xmas lights?> > Mark> _______________________________________________> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk> > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Nov 30 20:59:50 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:59:50 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall> > An led is a light emitting diode, so I think it will light > for one half of the cycle when AC is applied to it. The fact that only half of them go out would seem to support that theory. What I don't understand is why you want to pull out one lamp. Those LEDs should be good for upwards of 50,000 hours, which is some 30 years if you run them for two months continuously each year. By that time you can just throw the whole string away. Randall From nogera2 at att.net Sun Nov 30 21:12:53 2008 From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:12:53 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade Message-ID: I've got a metal ( very thick ) fan blade, which is no longer available, that has a crack in one of the blades. I'm thinking of drilling a hole at the end of the crack and welding it up then grinding the weld flush. Anyone see any problem with that or have other suggestions? Bob From rbeels at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 23:42:40 2008 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:42:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Free Craftsman Cordless Drill - Who wants it? Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081201012211.03e90680@technologist.com> Read before blindly hitting reply... :-) Cleaning the workbench and found my old 12V Craftsman Cordless Drill/Driver. It's about 10 years old and since it's in the garage and I'm not, I don't have the part # off the label, but it's the old-style, all black with yellow "Craftsman Professional" highlights. It ran great the last time I used it. It has way more power than any Horrible Freight 12V and it's pretty light compared to the 14.4V that I use now. It was the workbench driver for a while but last year the battery pack died and so it got stuffed in the roundtuit box. Why am I giving it away? Because the battery pack died and I didn't have the time to d*ck around with rebuilding the battery pack and my local Sears doesn't carry a replacement battery for it. It would come with 1 dead battery pack, as per the also included rapid charger with fancy multi-color diagnostic LEDs. I think I have another (plain) charger another battery pack (which would also be dead, natch). I'd rather give it to someone who either: a) has the Craftsman 12V system and could use another driver or b) someone who wants a driver and feels like rebuilding the battery pack. Cheers!