From scott.hall at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 08:40:02 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:40:02 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? Message-ID: <060220081440.13934.48440642000289EB0000366E220702095304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> I need to disassemble some pvc tubing on a swimming pool filter system. right now the tubing is permanently plumbed to the filter. when I cut the lines to remove the filter, I'd like to be able to install something that will let me disconnect the filter again for service later without cutting the pipe. I was thinking something like what you connect a p-trap with, only larger, but I don't see anything like that. does anyone know of such fittings? I cruised the big box stores and didn't see anything--only repair sleeves for gluing. it's about 2-inch pvc tubing, for what it's worth. also, anyone know a good abs glue/sealant (separate issue). the filter body itself is made of what appears to be abs and a 1.5" threaded plug in the body has developed a crack. I haven't been able to find another one and the company that makes the filter has been bought out. I'd prefer not to buy a new filter just for the plug. thanks. scott From wmc_st at xxiii.com Mon Jun 2 08:53:32 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:53:32 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <060220081440.13934.48440642000289EB0000366E220702095304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> References: <060220081440.13934.48440642000289EB0000366E220702095304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4844096C.9080205@xxiii.com> scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > when I cut the lines to remove the filter, I'd like to be able to install something that will let me disconnect the filter again for service later without cutting the pipe. I was thinking something like what you connect a p-trap with, only larger, but I don't see anything like that. You've got the name right, it's a pipe union. They should be easily available in PVC. I know I've seen them up to 1" or 1.5" on well pump installations. The 2" is somewhat unusual; might need to go to a plumbing supply store. > also, anyone know a good abs glue/sealant (separate issue). the filter body itself is made of what appears to be abs and a 1.5" threaded plug in the body has developed a crack. There is pipe glue just for ABS. I forget if it's one that needs a "primer", so look for that. Easily available at Lowes/HD. Are you sure it's ABS? The glue has to be matched to the plastic. It also tends to be viscous stuff, and won't "wick" down into a crack well, so I don't know how well it would work if just brushed on the surface. -Wayne From scott.hall at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 08:59:33 2008 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:59:33 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? Message-ID: <060220081459.14107.48440AD5000622D10000371B220702095304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Wayne > You've got the name right, it's a pipe union. They should be easily > available in PVC. I know I've seen them up to 1" or 1.5" on well pump > installations. The 2" is somewhat unusual; might need to go to a > plumbing supply store. thanks wayne. home depot and lowes had zip in any size. saw nothing at ace either--they seem to be a little bit better. > There is pipe glue just for ABS. I forget if it's one that needs a > "primer", so look for that. Easily available at Lowes/HD. Are you sure > it's ABS? The glue has to be matched to the plastic. It also tends to > be viscous stuff, and won't "wick" down into a crack well, so I don't > know how well it would work if just brushed on the surface. I'm not *positive* it's abs--it's a soft-ish black plastic. I don't know how to tell for sure what it really is. I saw the pipe glue at lowes and was going to try it assuming the plug is abs, but thought I'd ask here first because I think I've got one shot at this thing. I don't want to make it unfixable at all. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Jun 2 09:30:41 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:30:41 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <060220081440.13934.48440642000289EB0000366E220702095304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20080602153041.SVQL21231.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > when I cut the lines to remove the filter, > I'd like to be able to install something that will let me > disconnect the filter again for service later without cutting > the pipe. I was thinking something like what you connect a > p-trap with, only larger, but I don't see anything like that. Hmm, I guess they quit carrying them in the larger sizes. Home Depot used to have both socket weld and compression unions for PVC in 2"; but 1.5" is the biggest I see on their web site. But MMC has them in 2" socket weld. http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=62 Or I see a box of 5 compression unions on eBay : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350025141331 Might be you could talk the seller into a smaller quantity, or resell 4 of them. Or, use a socket weld to NPT adapter, plus one of these : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6057192603 > also, anyone know a good abs glue/sealant (separate issue). JB Weld is supposed to stick to ABS, tho I've not tried it. My SS pool filter is repaired with JB Weld reinforced with fiberglass cloth and it's held up for several seasons. When I tried to repair the PVC chlorinator with unreinforced JB Weld, it split open again in a few months; but adding the cloth seems to make the difference. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Jun 2 09:37:42 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:37:42 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <20080602153041.SVQL21231.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > Or I see a box of 5 compression unions on eBay : Forgot to add, I really like the compression unions IF you've got enough room for them. They tolerate a small amount of angular misalignment, as well as several inches along-axis. But you'll need a foot or more of straight pipe to install them, somewhat less if you can move the pipe ends apart to install (or remove) the union. Odd as it sounds, a friend of mine used a truck radiator hose to form a union for his new pool pump. Just slid it over the ends of the PVC and clamped with radiator hose clamps. That was maybe 15 years ago, and it still works fine for him. Also isolates pump vibration from the rest of the plumbing, according to him. I may try something similar, since I have a lot of trouble with the outlet fitting cracking right at the pump body. Randall From cak at dimebank.com Mon Jun 2 10:04:15 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? Message-ID: <200806021604.m52G4FmU020913@moose.dimebank.com> > JB Weld is supposed to stick to ABS, tho I've not tried it. That's what I was going to suggest, too. If you can remove the plug to work on it (sounds like you can), then treat the repair as you would think about repairing cracked metal with a weld - vee it out, rough it up to provide some tooth, and fill it well with JB weld. The downside of using JB Weld is that you'll have to take the part out of service for 24 hours. From jem at milleredp.com Mon Jun 2 11:06:57 2008 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <484428B1.9090305@milleredp.com> > Odd as it sounds, a friend of mine used a truck radiator hose to form a > union for his new pool pump. It doesn't sound too odd to me; as long as it's protected from solar UV (which is an issue for any plastic or rubber pipe outdoors) I wouldn't think anything about that application represents the kind of stress it'd see in a vehicle engine compartment. There's minimal pressure and as long as there's no axial tension on it to help the ends creep on the pipe (hmm, is there such a thing as a 1.5in or 2in glue-on PVC hose barb?) it shouldn't come loose. > plumbing, according to him. I may try something similar, since I have a lot > of trouble with the outlet fitting cracking right at the pump body. There's always schedule 80 PVC. I've found Home Depot, Lowe's etc to be of limited utility when it comes to plumbing supplies, they carry 60-70% of what's needed for any serious work and you always end up hunting elsewhere for the stuff that makes for an easy job. Around here at least we've got Ewing Irrigation Supply that's got a far better selection of valves and PVC fittings and pipe; their pricing is okay (Sch80 PVC is going to be expensive no matter what, unless a bunch of it falls off a truck in front of your house.) McMaster-Carr has all the odd-size copper sweat fittings you need for air plumbing and doing a nice job on lavatories, icemakers, etc. John. From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Mon Jun 2 12:23:19 2008 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:23:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <20080602153041.SVQL21231.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <20080602182319.GA2187@sackheads.org> On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 08:37:42AM -0700, Randall wrote: > Odd as it sounds, a friend of mine used a truck radiator hose to form a > union for his new pool pump. Just slid it over the ends of the PVC and > clamped with radiator hose clamps. We did the same thing at our old house. I figured it wouldn't last more than a season or two from the constant exposure but needed something for a quick fix. Darned if it didn't last for years and it was still in good shape when we sold the place. No dry rot or exterior cracking or anything. Another thing to keep in mind is that PVC tends to become brittle if exposed to UV radiation so it's a good idea for folks with pools and sprinkler systems to paint the exposed PVC pipes to protect them from the sun. From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Jun 2 13:34:55 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 15:34:55 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <060220081440.13934.48440642000289EB0000366E220702095304040 E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080602153455.00a5f2a8@pop.east.cox.net> At 02:40 PM 6/2/2008 +0000, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: >I need to disassemble some pvc tubing on a swimming pool filter system. right now the tubing is permanently plumbed to the filter. when I cut the lines to remove the filter, I'd like to be able to install something that will let me disconnect the filter again for service later without cutting the pipe. I was thinking something like what you connect a p-trap with, only larger, but I don't see anything like that. > >does anyone know of such fittings? I cruised the big box stores and didn't see anything--only repair sleeves for gluing. it's about 2-inch pvc tubing, for what it's worth. Scott, Someone mentioned a radiator hose. Actually they make hose type fittings for just such things. I've had to cut the main drain from the kitchen (clogged drain) and repaired it with one of the rubber hose type joints. Also did a bathroom drain the same way. I don't remember what they are called, but if you go to the plumbing section of most hardware stores and ask, they'll be able to show them to you. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From pethier at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 15:06:03 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:06:03 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? Message-ID: <060220082106.12424.484460BB000B4EE60000308822165258569D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> > Actually they make hose > type fittings for just such things. I've had to cut the main drain > from the kitchen (clogged drain) and repaired it with one of the > rubber hose type joints. Also did a bathroom drain the same way. > > I don't remember what they are called, but if you go to the plumbing > section of most hardware stores and ask, they'll be able to show them > to you. > > John The typical brand name is "Fernco", which has become somewhat generic in the trade, like "Jello". -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Jun 2 15:37:38 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <400428.89418.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If that's good enough for the temperature and pressure of a truck radiator, I'm sure it's just fine for a hot tub! Don't forget that unlike a water supply line, the hot tub plumbing has only a few pounds of pressure. Doug --- Randall wrote: > Odd as it sounds, a friend of mine used a truck > radiator hose to form a > union for his new pool pump. Just slid it over the > ends of the PVC and > clamped with radiator hose clamps. That was maybe > 15 years ago, and it > still works fine for him. Also isolates pump > vibration from the rest of the > plumbing, according to him. I may try something > similar, since I have a lot > of trouble with the outlet fitting cracking right at > the pump body. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Jun 2 15:56:41 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:56:41 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <400428.89418.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> <400428.89418.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <187c01c8c4fb$8a11d900$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Don't forget that unlike a water supply line, > the hot tub plumbing has only a few pounds of > pressure. Well, if you consider 30+ psi to be "only a few pounds". Truck radiators also usually lack free chlorine, while I have to take my pool up to 3ppm at least twice a year or so. Chlorine is incredibly destructive (which is why it works so well at killing *anything* that grows). Randall From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Mon Jun 2 17:09:46 2008 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:09:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <187c01c8c4fb$8a11d900$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <20080602153742.OMBW25439.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> <400428.89418.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <187c01c8c4fb$8a11d900$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <20080602230945.GA28253@sackheads.org> On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 02:56:41PM -0700, Randall wrote: > Chlorine is incredibly destructive (which is why > it works so well at killing *anything* that grows). Indeed. I remember using leftover chlorine "shock" mixture to kill a big mass of poison ivy plants that had taken over the back corner of the yard. Later the same day they were wilted and within a day or two they were completely withered and brown. Jimmie From racertod at racertodd.com Mon Jun 2 21:25:01 2008 From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:25:01 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <060220081459.14107.48440AD5000622D10000371B220702095304040 E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080602202144.00bcfd70@mail.blarg.net> Scott wrote: >I'm not *positive* it's abs--it's a soft-ish black plastic. I don't know >how to tell for sure what it really is. I saw the pipe glue at lowes and >was going to try it assuming the plug is abs, but thought I'd ask here >first because I think I've got one shot at this thing. I don't want to >make it unfixable at all. Urethane Supply (www.urethanesupply.com) mostly deals with automotive plastics but has a page on identifying plastics and a zillion products to repair them. Todd Seattle,WA '86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 268,000 miles '01 Golf TDI, silver. (new work car) 165,000 miles '87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car) 654,000 miles <- For Sale! http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff From tr6 at pipeline.com Tue Jun 3 07:23:22 2008 From: tr6 at pipeline.com (Ronald Olds) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:23:22 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? In-Reply-To: <060220081440.13934.48440642000289EB0000366E220702095304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: You can purchase unions for that size pipe at the home depot. If you can not find them there get them at a pool store. This is what I have on my pool plumbing and it works great. Ron Olds -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of scott.hall at comcast.net Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:40 AM To: shop-talk Subject: [Shop-talk] pvc unions? I need to disassemble some pvc tubing on a swimming pool filter system. right now the tubing is permanently plumbed to the filter. when I cut the lines to remove the filter, I'd like to be able to install something that will let me disconnect the filter again for service later without cutting the pipe. I was thinking something like what you connect a p-trap with, only larger, but I don't see anything like that. does anyone know of such fittings? I cruised the big box stores and didn't see anything--only repair sleeves for gluing. it's about 2-inch pvc tubing, for what it's worth. also, anyone know a good abs glue/sealant (separate issue). the filter body itself is made of what appears to be abs and a 1.5" threaded plug in the body has developed a crack. I haven't been able to find another one and the company that makes the filter has been bought out. I'd prefer not to buy a new filter just for the plug. thanks. scott From aztvr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 20:04:38 2008 From: aztvr at yahoo.com (Jim S.) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] TVR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <753246.50068.qm@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is another lead on a car.    http://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/443757/possible_buy#Post443757   --- On Wed, 5/28/08, Bill Engle Sr <whesr at iglou.com> wrote: From: Bill Engle Sr <whesr at iglou.com> Subject: [Shop-talk] TVR To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2008, 12:46 PM Sort of off topic. Anyone know of a TVR for sale? 1960's early 1970's 4 or 6 cylinder. Bill Engle, Sr. All mail scanned by Symantec Antivirus You are subscribed as aztvr at yahoo.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From peteb at clear.net.nz Sat Jun 7 02:31:52 2008 From: peteb at clear.net.nz (Pete Bronlund) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:31:52 +1200 Subject: [Shop-talk] Car suspension repair: Concern over heat effect on metal. What's the proper approach? Message-ID: <484a4778.1e6.374b.10295@clear.net.nz> I'm needing to do a restoration repair on the front suspension stabilizer bar from my car. One end has become really (badly) rust pitted. I've been very lucky to have sourced the last available 'peanut' shaped rubber bushes that fit onto the bar ends. Inside the bush is a tough nylon bearing. If i just put the damaged pitted steel end into the bush we run the risk of the bush being flogged out within no time i'm guessing. I'm thinking, can i simply heat the pitted end (which i've had soaking in EvapoRust to remove the corrosion with the oxy-acyet torch and put some braze over it then once cooled file it back to shape cylindrical. Of course i'm thinking the metal in the bar *could* go brittle and break latter which would not be good. The problem is that the bar is pretty rare being as the car is Italian.... I've posted this same question to another local Forum with pictures to explain the problem: http://tinyurl.com/6mh2c9 Does anyone have any ideas on this one? TIA Pete From dhlocker at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 06:03:04 2008 From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:03:04 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Car suspension repair: Concern over heat effect on metal. What's the proper approach? In-Reply-To: <484a4778.1e6.374b.10295@clear.net.nz> References: <484a4778.1e6.374b.10295@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <484A78F8.9020103@comcast.net> I'd be fearful of the heat affecting the temper of the bar. Especially if it is rare, I wouldn't do it. A safer alternative would be using a filled epoxy (something like J.B.Weld) applied instead of the braze. A company named Devitt Machinery Company makes products to rebuild machine ways (and other applications,) and it seems to be quite functional. Donald. Pete Bronlund wrote: > I'm needing to do a restoration repair on the front > suspension stabilizer bar from my car. One end has become > really (badly) rust pitted. I've been very lucky to have > sourced the last available 'peanut' shaped rubber bushes > that fit onto the bar ends. Inside the bush is a tough nylon > bearing. If i just put the damaged pitted steel end into the > bush we run the risk of the bush being flogged out within no > time i'm guessing. > > I'm thinking, can i simply heat the pitted end (which i've > had soaking in EvapoRust to remove the corrosion with the > oxy-acyet torch and put some braze over it then once cooled > file it back to shape cylindrical. Of course i'm thinking > the metal in the bar *could* go brittle and break latter > which would not be good. > > The problem is that the bar is pretty rare being as the car > is Italian.... > > I've posted this same question to another local Forum with > pictures to explain the problem: > > http://tinyurl.com/6mh2c9 > > Does anyone have any ideas on this one? TIA Pete > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as dhlocker at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From hal at katemuir.com Sat Jun 7 10:00:55 2008 From: hal at katemuir.com (Hal Faulkner) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:00:55 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Car suspension repair: Concern over heat effect on metal. What's the proper approach? In-Reply-To: <484a4778.1e6.374b.10295@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: Pete, Have you talked to anyone at a spring shop? A decent spring shop can make just about anything that you could want for minis to big rigs. They should also be able to re-temper the bar, and could certainly advise you as to how to deal with your situation. Since this appears to be a rather thorough restoration of an unknown make vehicle, cost must be a secondary consideration after correctness. My limited experience with spring shops here in Sacramento leads me to believe that they might be an affordable solution. Hal -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+hal=katemuir.com at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+hal=katemuir.com at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Pete Bronlund Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:32 AM To: shop-talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] Car suspension repair: Concern over heat effect on metal. What's the proper approach? I'm needing to do a restoration repair on the front suspension stabilizer bar from my car. One end has become From bugi1960 at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 14:06:20 2008 From: bugi1960 at gmail.com (Phil Nase) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:06:20 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] pressure washer pump repair Message-ID: <7154513E-E6FC-43EC-BAE9-3D9B0BD566EA@gmail.com> I have a Craftsman 2300 psi pressure washer. Today it started shooting high pressure water from the front of the pump manifold. It leaks at high pressure when the trigger on the wand is pulled. I don't see any seals or gaskets listed on the diagrams for the manifold. Tomorrow I'll try to pull it and see what's going on. Anyone have this problem before? It has operated well for over 5 years. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/ bugi1960 at gmail.com From watsonm05 at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 14:20:33 2008 From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:20:33 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Car suspension repair: Concern over heat effect on metal. What's the proper approach? References: <484a4778.1e6.374b.10295@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <00d201c8c8db$f159b400$0202a8c0@watsongxpejt9r> Hi, there. Neat problem. What kind of car is it? Any pictures? If you look at this company's page: http://www.flamespraydenver.com/Flame_Spray.aspx you will see that they explicitly list this claim: "Flame Spraying does not produce distortion or affect temper of heat treated parts that other repair methods cause." Since brazing requires that you get the base metal cherry red hot you would certainly be affecting the temper of the stabilizer bar. I have a similar problem that I need to address. The steering column groove for my car has some pits in the surface. It uses ball bearings between the nut and the shaft and the bearings have a matte finish showing me that they haven't been too happy rding over the pits. As far as I can tell using the metalizing spray is my best hoe since like you replacing the part seems virtually impossible (1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' - about maybe 100 made and durn few surviving). Good luck and please let us know what you end up doing so we can all learn from your experiences. Mark Watson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Bronlund" To: "shop-talk List" Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:31 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Car suspension repair: Concern over heat effect on metal. What's the proper approach? > I'm needing to do a restoration repair on the front > suspension stabilizer bar from my car. One end has become > really (badly) rust pitted. I've been very lucky to have > sourced the last available 'peanut' shaped rubber bushes > that fit onto the bar ends. Inside the bush is a tough nylon > bearing. If i just put the damaged pitted steel end into the > bush we run the risk of the bush being flogged out within no > time i'm guessing. > > I'm thinking, can i simply heat the pitted end (which i've > had soaking in EvapoRust to remove the corrosion with the > oxy-acyet torch and put some braze over it then once cooled > file it back to shape cylindrical. Of course i'm thinking > the metal in the bar *could* go brittle and break latter > which would not be good. > > The problem is that the bar is pretty rare being as the car > is Italian.... > > I've posted this same question to another local Forum with > pictures to explain the problem: > > http://tinyurl.com/6mh2c9 > > Does anyone have any ideas on this one? TIA Pete > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as watsonm05 at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Jun 7 15:25:02 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:25:02 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] lawn tractor? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080607172502.00a61600@pop.east.cox.net> I'm trying to help a neighbor get his lawn tractor running again. He has a Toro 920. That all I know about it. I've searched the net looking for that and found 1 youtube video that shows a 920 doing a wheelee. I'm looking for repair manuals, etc. Current problem is that it is locked in gear - sort of - not sure. Unfortunately, he opened the xmission case, and you guessed it, pulled some of the gears out with no pictures, etc. We managed to get it back together, but now in neutral the rear wheels are locked. My guess is we have some gear in backwards or a shim on the wrong side, so that 2 gears are binding when in neutral. If anyone has any leads on where I can find a manual for this toro 920 or has a manual and can scann some info on the xmission I'd be extreamly greatful. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Jun 7 15:55:46 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:55:46 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] lawn tractor? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080607172502.00a61600@pop.east.cox.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20080607172502.00a61600@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <484B03E2.5070009@xxiii.com> John T. Blair wrote: > If anyone has any leads on where I can find a manual for this > toro 920 or has a manual and can scann some info on the xmission > I'd be extreamly greatful. There's a surprising amount of information on the web; but often it's not listed under a model number like "920". Who makes the transmission? Was it Toro or some other company? I'd scrounge around on the case and look for a make and model number sticker or plate. I usually have a lot better luck googling on numbers like that, rather than a chassis model. For example, there aren't that many permutations of B&S or Tecumseh engines in the last 50 years, but they've been in thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of end-products over the decades. -Wayne From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jun 7 16:04:14 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:04:14 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen Message-ID: <20080607220414.ZPTS23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> FYI, I recently bought a 220v air compressor and was looking today at wiring it up. My house has a 125 amp sub-panel with some spare breaker slots, so should be no problem, right ? Well, turns out that sub-panel and it's breakers were made by Federal Pacific. I'd never heard of them, but when I called a contractor friend, he immediately said "Aren't those the ones that catch fire ?" ! Turns out he's right. Apparently "back when", Federal Pacific falsified their data to receive UL approval, and their circuit breakers (and panel) are simply a bad design that should never have been sold. A high percentage of the breakers can fail to open under various fault conditions; and even jam permanently closed so they will not open under any fault conditions ! It's a long, strange story; still being played out in the courts. Lots and lots of details at http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpe.html You might want to check what kind of circuit breakers your home has ... I'm off to look at new sub-panels. Randall From opposumking at verizon.net Sat Jun 7 17:08:54 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:08:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Car suspension repair: Concern over heat effect on metal. What's the proper approach? References: <484a4778.1e6.374b.10295@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <004001c8c8f3$758cf7c0$2f01a8c0@CPQ12949640186> Brazing doesn't do much for strength. If the bar has so badly rusted it's appreciably reduced in diameter, than it's also appreciably reduced in strength. Were it mine in that case, I'd have a machine shop weld up the surface, grind it back down, and heat treat it to the oem standard. This is not a unique process, it's done all the time on motor shafts and such. Any good machineshop can do it. From smarc at smarc.net Sat Jun 7 20:17:14 2008 From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:17:14 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <20080607220414.ZPTS23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <20080607220414.ZPTS23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <484B412A.20409@smarc.net> My circa 1961 home had Federal Pacific panels when I bought it about 8 years ago. The very first thing I had done was have both my panels swapped out. My house has both 220 service and a separate 3 phase service that runs the condensing unit.... In the first week I was in the house, before the panels had been changed out, the electric water heater stopped working. The plumber from the home warranty company pushed the reset button on the water heater, which promptly exploded and blew a hole in the tank! Water spurting out, electricity arcing like a Jacobs ladder, and the federal pacific breaker never tripped... Yeah, DEFINITELY change out that panel. Cutler Hammer or Square D. Marc Randall wrote: > FYI, > > I recently bought a 220v air compressor and was looking today at wiring it > up. My house has a 125 amp sub-panel with some spare breaker slots, so > should be no problem, right ? > > Well, turns out that sub-panel and it's breakers were made by Federal > Pacific. I'd never heard of them, but when I called a contractor friend, he > immediately said "Aren't those the ones that catch fire ?" ! > > Turns out he's right. Apparently "back when", Federal Pacific falsified > their data to receive UL approval, and their circuit breakers (and panel) > are simply a bad design that should never have been sold. A high percentage > of the breakers can fail to open under various fault conditions; and even > jam permanently closed so they will not open under any fault conditions ! > > It's a long, strange story; still being played out in the courts. Lots and > lots of details at > http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpe.html > > You might want to check what kind of circuit breakers your home has ... > I'm off to look at new sub-panels. > > Randall From jibjib at att.net Sat Jun 7 22:04:53 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:04:53 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <484B412A.20409@smarc.net> References: <20080607220414.ZPTS23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <484B412A.20409@smarc.net> Message-ID: <00bb01c8c91c$cee12cf0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> I changed out all the outlets in a home with a Federal Pacific panel. Typically, I did them live, but every once in a while there was a troublesome one where I felt much better with the power off. Many of the Federal Pacific breakers could not easily be tripped with a screwdriver grounding out the circuit. I added a lot of GFI's, as I was not ready to change out the panel yet. jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Marc Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:17 PM To: Randall Cc: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen My circa 1961 home had Federal Pacific panels when I bought it about 8 years ago. The very first thing I had done was have both my panels swapped out. My house has both 220 service and a separate 3 phase service that runs the condensing unit.... In the first week I was in the house, before the panels had been changed out, the electric water heater stopped working. The plumber from the home warranty company pushed the reset button on the water heater, which promptly exploded and blew a hole in the tank! Water spurting out, electricity arcing like a Jacobs ladder, and the federal pacific breaker never tripped... Yeah, DEFINITELY change out that panel. Cutler Hammer or Square D. Marc Randall wrote: > FYI, > > I recently bought a 220v air compressor and was looking today at > wiring it up. My house has a 125 amp sub-panel with some spare > breaker slots, so should be no problem, right ? > > Well, turns out that sub-panel and it's breakers were made by Federal > Pacific. I'd never heard of them, but when I called a contractor > friend, he immediately said "Aren't those the ones that catch fire ?" ! > > Turns out he's right. Apparently "back when", Federal Pacific > falsified their data to receive UL approval, and their circuit > breakers (and panel) are simply a bad design that should never have > been sold. A high percentage of the breakers can fail to open under > various fault conditions; and even jam permanently closed so they will not open under any fault conditions ! > > It's a long, strange story; still being played out in the courts. > Lots and lots of details at http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpe.html > > You might want to check what kind of circuit breakers your home has ... > I'm off to look at new sub-panels. > > Randall You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Jun 8 08:50:37 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <00bb01c8c91c$cee12cf0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yikes! Are you saying that to switch off a breaker, an electrician will short it out at the outlet box to avoid the trouble of going down to the basement, identifying the correct breaker, and manually switching it off? Doug --- Jack Brooks wrote: > I changed out all the outlets in a home with a > Federal Pacific panel. > Typically, I did them live, but every once in a > while there was a > troublesome one where I felt much better with the > power off. Many of the > Federal Pacific breakers could not easily be tripped > with a screwdriver > grounding out the circuit. I added a lot of GFI's, > as I was not ready to > change out the panel yet. > > jack From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 8 09:13:57 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 08:13:57 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> > Are you saying that to switch off a breaker, an > electrician will short it out at the outlet box Can't speak for Jack, but I know that, if I want the power off at the outlet, I short the wires. My own breaker panel isn't so well marked that I know for sure which breaker is for which outlet/fixture; and I sure wouldn't trust anyone else's panel to be properly marked. In fact, I just found out yesterday that one of the breakers marked "House Conv" handles the outlet for the refrigerator & microwave, but not the one right next to it. Besides, how else do you test a breaker in the field ? Randall From jibjib at att.net Sun Jun 8 09:19:07 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 08:19:07 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <00cb01c8c97a$ff411eb0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> I do the same Randall, and the 40 year old Federal Pacific breakers didn't always pop. That was scary. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:14 AM To: 'Shop-Talk' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen > Are you saying that to switch off a breaker, an electrician will short > it out at the outlet box Can't speak for Jack, but I know that, if I want the power off at the outlet, I short the wires. My own breaker panel isn't so well marked that I know for sure which breaker is for which outlet/fixture; and I sure wouldn't trust anyone else's panel to be properly marked. In fact, I just found out yesterday that one of the breakers marked "House Conv" handles the outlet for the refrigerator & microwave, but not the one right next to it. Besides, how else do you test a breaker in the field ? Randall You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Jun 8 10:56:59 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <00cb01c8c97a$ff411eb0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: <717031.8888.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That's what I dould be afraid of. If for any reason the breaker doesn't pop quick enough, you could end up with a wire with charred insulation running all the way back to the main box. How are you going to fix that? Doug I am reminded of the saying that you don't really want to see what goes on in a restaurant kitchen... --- Jack Brooks wrote: > I do the same Randall, and the 40 year old Federal > Pacific breakers didn't > always pop. That was scary. > > Jack From shochschild at att.net Sun Jun 8 11:44:51 2008 From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 12:44:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Electrical fire waiting to happen Message-ID: <5F71F2FED419467788DEEDE23A1D9DDD@Toshiba> This sounds like prudent and important testing to me. It either works correctly, or it doesn't. If it does, it was the easiest and most accurate way to make sure that specific breaker is thrown, and you do the work. If it doesn't work as it should, the failure will be happening when you are watching it, so you can stop it before the consequences are significant. Failure in the middle of the day when no one is home will have far more consequential consequences. Not only is this practice, I think it is best practice... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Braun" > To: "Jack Brooks" ; "'Shop-Talk'" > > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 11:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen > > >> That's what I dould be afraid of. If for any reason >> the breaker doesn't pop quick enough, you could end up >> with a wire with charred insulation running all the >> way back to the main box. How are you going to fix >> that? >> >> Doug >> >> I am reminded of the saying that you don't really want >> to see what goes on in a restaurant kitchen... >> >> >> --- Jack Brooks wrote: >> >>> I do the same Randall, and the 40 year old Federal >>> Pacific breakers didn't >>> always pop. That was scary. >>> >>> Jack >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as shochschild at att.net >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Jun 8 16:56:09 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 15:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <5F71F2FED419467788DEEDE23A1D9DDD@Toshiba> Message-ID: <45726.34115.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If the goal was to test the breaker, the best practice would be to disconnect the load wiring at the breaker and connect some wort of temporary test hookup. There are so many ways a deliberate short (done with a screwdriver) could have unintended consequences. At the very least, you would leave arc marks on the binding screws and junction boxes, and mess up the screwdriver. And what if the breaker really was bad, and the huge current surge got the screwdriver firmly welded in place? Doug --- shochschild at att.net wrote: > This sounds like prudent and important testing to > me. > > It either works correctly, or it doesn't. If it > does, it was the easiest > and most accurate way to make sure that specific > breaker is thrown, and you > do the work. > > If it doesn't work as it should, the failure will > be happening when you are > watching it, so you can stop it before the > consequences are significant. > Failure in the middle of the day when no one is > home will have far more > consequential consequences. > > Not only is this practice, I think it is best > practice... From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 8 17:15:15 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:15:15 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <45726.34115.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080608231516.BIYO20096.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > If the goal was to test the breaker, the best practice would > be to disconnect the load wiring at the breaker and connect > some wort of temporary test hookup. Uh huh. And how many times have you (or anyone at your house) actually done that ? > And what if the > breaker really was bad, and the huge current surge got the > screwdriver firmly welded in place? Trot down to the main disconnect; odds are high you'll get there before any serious damage is done (assuming the short won't trip the main breaker or the fuse on the pole). And if not, lots better to have a fire with someone watching and ready to put it out, than in the middle of the night. It's kind of like the old saying about what's more dangerous than a loaded gun ... having a circuit breaker that doesn't work is worse than having none at all. Randall From chad at linuxeg.com Sun Jun 8 18:43:54 2008 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:43:54 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Electrical fire waiting to happen References: <20080608231516.BIYO20096.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <057601c8c9c9$e5916660$6101a8c0@tardis> Can I be your screwdriver vender? Sounds like there's money to be made. chad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" To: Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Fw: Electrical fire waiting to happen >> If the goal was to test the breaker, the best practice would >> be to disconnect the load wiring at the breaker and connect >> some wort of temporary test hookup. > > Uh huh. And how many times have you (or anyone at your house) actually > done > that ? > >> And what if the >> breaker really was bad, and the huge current surge got the >> screwdriver firmly welded in place? > > Trot down to the main disconnect; odds are high you'll get there before > any > serious damage is done (assuming the short won't trip the main breaker or > the fuse on the pole). And if not, lots better to have a fire with > someone > watching and ready to put it out, than in the middle of the night. > > It's kind of like the old saying about what's more dangerous than a loaded > gun ... having a circuit breaker that doesn't work is worse than having > none > at all. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Sun Jun 8 19:12:37 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:12:37 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080608211237.00a57bd0@pop.east.cox.net> At 08:13 AM 6/8/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Can't speak for Jack, but I know that, if I want the power off at the >outlet, I short the wires. >Besides, how else do you test a breaker in the field ? Well testing is one thing, finding is another. To find which breaker handles an outlet I'd use something like: Gardner Bender Circuit Tracker- Circuit Breaker Finder GET-1200 http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12334-1781-GET -1200&lpage=none John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 20:41:53 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 22:41:53 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080608211237.00a57bd0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20080608211237.00a57bd0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806081941m400c39c3ja9878daefee3fed6@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 9:12 PM, John T. Blair wrote: > At 08:13 AM 6/8/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >>Can't speak for Jack, but I know that, if I want the power off at the >>outlet, I short the wires. > >>Besides, how else do you test a breaker in the field ? > > Well testing is one thing, finding is another. To find which breaker > handles an outlet I'd use something like: > If I'm by myself, I use a drill motor. Plug it in. Pull the trigger. Set the lock. Go to breaker box. Flip breakers until the drill stops. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 20:49:23 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 22:49:23 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Randall wrote: >> Are you saying that to switch off a breaker, an > In fact, I just found out yesterday that one of the breakers marked "House > Conv" handles the outlet for the refrigerator & microwave, but not the one > right next to it. > Code for kitchens currently requires two separate 20 amp circuits for small appliances. It's considered good practice to make sure that everything won't be plugged into just one of them; that's sometimes done by alternating outlets. It's a good practice to have the 'fridge on a circuit of it's own; most places that doesn't need to be GFCI. (The NEC changes substantially for kitchens in every revision, what's required in your house depends a lot on when it was wired.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 8 22:13:47 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:13:47 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080609041347.EZZX20096.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > (The NEC changes substantially for kitchens in every > revision, what's required in your house depends a lot on when > it was wired.) I have a feeling that the NEC and whoever wired this house were total strangers to each other anyway. Randall From jem at milleredp.com Mon Jun 9 00:58:02 2008 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 23:58:02 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> > Code for kitchens currently requires two separate 20 amp circuits for > small appliances. It's considered good practice to make sure that > everything won't be plugged into just one of them; that's sometimes > done by alternating outlets. It's a good practice to have the 'fridge > on a circuit of it's own; most places that doesn't need to be GFCI. > (The NEC changes substantially for kitchens in every revision, what's > required in your house depends a lot on when it was wired.) And the local authorities seem to stick their noses further into kitchen wiring than just about anything else, based on my limited experience. When we did our remodel we hadn't intended to do too much to the kitchen, but we had some very serious rain while the roof was off that made very nasty on the old cabinets, flooring, etc. My wife wasn't exactly unhappy, by the time she got done with the wishlist I think the kitchen now eats half the subpanel in the garage, and that's not including the range hoods that are switched through the Lutron HWI lighting controls. "Budget? No comprende 'budget'." John. From rs1121 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 09:23:19 2008 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:23:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <00bb01c8c91c$cee12cf0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04c301c8ca44$bf4dc130$3de94390$@net> Yep - I'm guilty of this also - It really is a time saver! I got hooked into doing this at an early age, when we used to wrap solder around the plugs of the teachers overhead projectors in school. Always got a good reaction, and the solder disappeared after the tremendous POP when the unit was plugged in so there was nothing left to trace our shenanigans. Uh - If one of my former teachers happens to be on this forum - it wasn't me!!! -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Doug Braun Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 9:51 AM To: Jack Brooks; 'Shop-Talk' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen Yikes! Are you saying that to switch off a breaker, an electrician will short it out at the outlet box to avoid the trouble of going down to the basement, identifying the correct breaker, and manually switching it off? Doug From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Mon Jun 9 10:10:16 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:10:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <04c301c8ca44$bf4dc130$3de94390$@net> References: <00bb01c8c91c$cee12cf0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <04c301c8ca44$bf4dc130$3de94390$@net> Message-ID: <484D55E8.4080104@HorneSystemsTx.com> In the military I taught basic electronics for several years. At the end of the course was a 2 week long lab to teach troubleshooting. I would put one strand of wire from a power cord across the input to the power transformer. When the student turned on the switch it popped and blew the fuse. The wire disappeared, hardly leaving any sign of the arc. The students then tried to figure out what caused the pop and the fuse to blow. Since there was no nothing wrong with the equipment at that time, it took some time for them to work up enough nerve to replace the fuse and try plugging it in again. Great fun and troubleshooting with real world problems! When they did a good job of troubleshooting I would have them put a bug in another piece of equipment for me to troubleshoot at the end of the two weeks. By that time there were usually somewhere around 50 problems with it. If I needed to repair a problem to get on to troubleshooting other parts of the equipment I would repair it and move on. It usually took me less than 3 hours to find all the problems, about the same time as it took some of them to find one! Experience has its rewards. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Ron Schmittou: > Yep - I'm guilty of this also - It really is a time saver! I got hooked > into doing this at an early age, when we used to wrap solder around the > plugs of the teachers overhead projectors in school. Always got a good > reaction, and the solder disappeared after the tremendous POP when the unit > was plugged in so there was nothing left to trace our shenanigans. > > Uh - If one of my former teachers happens to be on this forum - it wasn't > me!!! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net > [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Doug Braun > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 9:51 AM > To: Jack Brooks; 'Shop-Talk' > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen > > Yikes! Are you saying that to switch off a breaker, > an electrician will short it out at the outlet box to > avoid the trouble of going down to the basement, > identifying the correct breaker, and manually > switching it off? > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.1.0/1492 - Release Date: 6/9/2008 10:29 AM > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From coles at colesnurseries.com Mon Jun 9 10:26:49 2008 From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:26:49 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine troubles Message-ID: <005301c8ca4d$9ea03090$0c01a8c0@Fest> We use three 'brush hogs' at work to keep the weeds down between the smaller plants. They are powered by 13 HP honda engines. Over the last two weeks, 2 out of the 3 have seized up (can't pull the pull cord). We check and change the oil religously - every day. We've had this problem before and whenever we take it to the dealer to be fixed they tell us there was no oil in the engine. At first I believed them but when it kept happening, I got suspicious. Now I know that there is oil in the engine. Any ideas why this might be happening ?? Does someone have a recommnedation of a better product. We've used DR and Billy Goat over the years. The last one to be fixed had just had a new clutch put on it. Thanks, Dan From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 11:07:12 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:07:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:58 AM, John Miller wrote: >> Code for kitchens currently requires two separate 20 amp circuits for >> small appliances. It's considered good practice to make sure that >> everything won't be plugged into just one of them; that's sometimes >> done by alternating outlets. It's a good practice to have the 'fridge >> on a circuit of it's own; most places that doesn't need to be GFCI. >> (The NEC changes substantially for kitchens in every revision, what's >> required in your house depends a lot on when it was wired.) > > And the local authorities seem to stick their noses further into kitchen > wiring than just about anything else, based on my limited experience. > Well, the kitchen is the highest density of electrical consumption in most houses. (most of the people on this list probably have shops that give kitchens a run for their money.) There are lots of ways to electrocute yourself, or set the house on fire. I used to live in a house that had a single 15 amp circuit for the kitchen. You had to unplug the fridge to use the microwave, because if the compressor came on, the breaker would blow. The toaster had to be in the dining room. That made two 20-amp circuits seem like a very good idea.... -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mikey at b2systems.com Mon Jun 9 11:28:32 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:28:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> <2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> The house I am moving into in August has a 40amp panel (yes 40, I had never seen one either) with 4 fuses, running my Skilsaw when the fridge kicked in blew the fuse. Garage is on a 10amp fuse with a single light bulb in it. The other 3 fuses are 15 amp, one for the kitchen, one for the living room and one bedroom and then the last one for the 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. I was surprised you can still buy glass fuses. I wonder what will happen when my daughter and my wife run their blowdriers at the same time :) Hell, I wonder if I can even run a computer... Can you guess what my absolute very first project is going to be ? going to run a 100amp subpanel to the garage and oh yeah, I forgot, upgrade the house too. I really like this idea of 2 20amp circuits in the kitchen, have to look into that and see if I can or maybe its required. Since new code requires me to move the main to a area visible from the street, I am going to have the main panel and garage sub-panel run by a pro with permits, etc. But I was going to do the rest myself over time (very short time, no pun intended). 2 different electricians I spoke to said a 200amp main would be good enough, I had asked for a 300 since 100 is going to the garage. So not sure what I will have yet but sometimes I am very surprised the house has not burned down yet. mike David Scheidt wrote: > > Well, the kitchen is the highest density of electrical consumption in > most houses. (most of the people on this list probably have shops > that give kitchens a run for their money.) There are lots of ways to > electrocute yourself, or set the house on fire. > > I used to live in a house that had a single 15 amp circuit for the > kitchen. You had to unplug the fridge to use the microwave, because > if the compressor came on, the breaker would blow. The toaster had > to be in the dining room. > That made two 20-amp circuits seem like a very good idea.... From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Jun 9 11:59:56 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:59:56 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall><2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com><484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com><2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <000001c8ca5a$a08112a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > The house I am moving into in August has a 40amp panel (yes > 40, I had > never seen one either) My previous house had a 40 amp main panel; probably put there when the house was built in the 20's. Someone had added a subpanel, but tapped in *before* the main fuses; then got the wires crossed between panels, with the result that it had a fuse in the neutral. We managed to blow that fuse once; with the result that the light in the utility room got *real* bright Pulled the main fuses (no disconnect) to work on the subpanel; but it was still hot ... Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 12:06:38 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:06:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> <2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806091106m157be3edvd044f1a74a18b40b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: > The house I am moving into in August has a 40amp panel (yes 40, I had > never seen one either) with 4 fuses, running my Skilsaw when the fridge > kicked in blew the fuse. Garage is on a 10amp fuse with a single light > bulb in it. The other 3 fuses are 15 amp, one for the kitchen, one for > the living room and one bedroom and then the last one for the 2 bedrooms > and 2 bathrooms. I was surprised you can still buy glass fuses. I > wonder what will happen when my daughter and my wife run their > blowdriers at the same time :) Hell, I wonder if I can even run a > computer... I've seen 40 amp panels before, in ancient buildings (usually coupled with knob-and-tube wires). The house with the 15 amp kitchen was an utter nightmare when it came to its wiring. It was a duplex, built without electricity. It was electrified with a very limited set of circuits, just for lighting. Somewhat later, but still in the knob-and-tube era, it had that improved to include some outlets. Some time later, more wires were added, in armored cables, and into recepticles that I've never seen anywhere else -- they had the two blades at an angle to each other, like a private's stripes. There were a precious handful of adapters that allowed a normal two pronged plug to be plugged in. The next modification was a seperate service that supplied the hot water heater (shared between the two halves of the duplex) and the kitchen ranges. The water heater was in my side of the basement, but the box in the neighbor's. When that blew, you had to get him to reset it. The previous tenet had worked from home, and convinced the landlord to install some new wires (I think, by doing the work before he asked if he could). That meant there was a new 100 amp box that fed the old glass fuse box as a sub panel, and which provided 20 amp circuits to the office, one bedroom, and the bathroom. I don't think he cooked, or he would have put some there too. Glass fuses are still available because there are lots of boxes that still use them. Most places require that if you replace the box, you have to update the wires. So it's common to improve the wiring by adding a new main panel, feeding the existing one as a sub-panel. As long as the wiring is in good shape, there's nothing really wrong with this, if it's done by a sane person. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mikey at b2systems.com Mon Jun 9 12:24:05 2008 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:24:05 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806091106m157be3edvd044f1a74a18b40b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> <2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> <2400a5d40806091106m157be3edvd044f1a74a18b40b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <484D7545.5030901@b2systems.com> In my case the house is knob-and-tube which because there has not been a fire I assume is in ok condition. After the new panel is in, I will start replacing all of it as quickly as possible. Current plan is to tear out the plaster in the kitchen and what will be my office and one bathroom and while the walls are bare, rewire those right away along with termite repair. Then its one room at a time until all the wiring is replaced over the next few months (hopefully not more than 6-9 months total). During this time the new garage will be built (oh yeah!!!). All that is left to decide is which electrician and 300 or 200 amp main and get the permits started, work can start on July 15 and we want to move in first week of August. mike David Scheidt wrote: > still use them. Most places require that if you replace the box, you > have to update the wires. So it's common to improve the wiring by > adding a new main panel, feeding the existing one as a sub-panel. As > long as the wiring is in good shape, there's nothing really wrong with > this, if it's done by a sane person. From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Jun 9 12:34:49 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <484D7545.5030901@b2systems.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> <2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> <2400a5d40806091106m157be3edvd044f1a74a18b40b@mail.gmail.com> <484D7545.5030901@b2systems.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 9 Jun 2008, Mike Rambour wrote: > In my case the house is knob-and-tube which because there has not been a > fire I assume is in ok condition. After the new panel is in, I will > start replacing all of it as quickly as possible. Current plan is to > tear out the plaster in the kitchen and what will be my office and one > bathroom and while the walls are bare, rewire those right away along > with termite repair. Then its one room at a time until all the wiring > is replaced over the next few months (hopefully not more than 6-9 months > total). > > During this time the new garage will be built (oh yeah!!!). > > All that is left to decide is which electrician and 300 or 200 amp main > and get the permits started, work can start on July 15 and we want to > move in first week of August. Geez. I've got to say, I applaud your enthusiasm / insanity / willingness to do projects. I've got all I can do to keep the banklog stagnent... :-) Mark From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Jun 9 13:06:43 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:06:43 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vises Message-ID: <006a01c8ca63$fc0fdc10$ae10c263@ejrussell> I'm in the market for a medium size metal working vise (I have enough vices). Harbor Freight has their usual 'made-in-China' cheapos. I'd like to pay their price but don't want to be forever reminded of how cheap I am when I use it. Any other sources of decent quality/reasonable prices? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 13:34:12 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:34:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <484D7545.5030901@b2systems.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com> <484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com> <2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com> <484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> <2400a5d40806091106m157be3edvd044f1a74a18b40b@mail.gmail.com> <484D7545.5030901@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806091234q5ec3257bwa422efe98e421ca3@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Mike Rambour wrote: > > > > All that is left to decide is which electrician and 300 or 200 amp main and > get the permits started, work can start on July 15 and we want to move in > first week of August. > 300 amp service is an odd duck around here. 400 is more common, as the local utility requires a 400 amp meter with 300 service, and there's no reason not to take advantage of it. That may not be the case where you are, of course, but price it out. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Jun 9 13:34:14 2008 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:34:14 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vises In-Reply-To: <006a01c8ca63$fc0fdc10$ae10c263@ejrussell> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080609153414.00a5f428@pop.east.cox.net> At 03:06 PM 6/9/2008 -0400, you wrote: >I'm in the market for a medium size metal working vise (I have enough >vices). Harbor Freight has their usual 'made-in-China' cheapos. I'd >like to pay their price but don't want to be forever reminded of how >cheap I am when I use it. > >Any other sources of decent quality/reasonable prices? Eric, Here's one American made vise company, but I can't believe the price! http://www.yostvises.com/sheetmetal.htm I was in Northern Tools a couple of weeks ago and talking to one of their floor personal about wrenches, and made in USA. He was showing me a set of their wrenches and saying that they were made in USA. I picked a set up and was looking at the package, and found "made in China". I'd love to buy made in USA, but in most cases I can't afford it. I'm willing to pay more for something made here (want to keep jobs here), but $500 for a vice, 2 moving parts! Hell, I can buy a used car for $500!!! Wilton (http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/) supposedly has a made in the USA vise at a more reasonable price. They are suposedly available at Northern tools. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From parkanzky at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 13:39:45 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vises In-Reply-To: <006a01c8ca63$fc0fdc10$ae10c263@ejrussell> References: <006a01c8ca63$fc0fdc10$ae10c263@ejrussell> Message-ID: I'll watch this with interest, as I want one too. One thing to consider is to look for the 'combination vise that allows you to clamp a pipe down easily. I've found that to be really handy. I had decided to buy a vise, but suffered sticker-shock. Some of my vices are cheaper! -Paul On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Eric J Russell wrote: > I'm in the market for a medium size metal working vise (I have enough > vices). Harbor Freight has their usual 'made-in-China' cheapos. I'd > like to pay their price but don't want to be forever reminded of how > cheap I am when I use it. > > Any other sources of decent quality/reasonable prices? > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 14:02:01 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:02:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vises In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080609153414.00a5f428@pop.east.cox.net> References: <006a01c8ca63$fc0fdc10$ae10c263@ejrussell> <3.0.5.32.20080609153414.00a5f428@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806091302l1eebf548t69c32318e6b64c@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:34 PM, John T. Blair wrote: > > Wilton (http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/) supposedly has a made in the USA > vise at a more reasonable price. They are suposedly available at > Northern tools. > Wilton also sell absolute junk made in China. Check the label. American made ones are really expensive. Chinese and Indian stuff might be okay. They might not. I've got a vise that I got from Enco. It's okay. It's actually a replacement, though. The first one shed its lead screw threads the first time it got used hard. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Jun 9 14:58:55 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] vises In-Reply-To: <006a01c8ca63$fc0fdc10$ae10c263@ejrussell> Message-ID: <922570.98421.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Flea markets and swap meets. That's where mine is from... Doug --- Eric J Russell wrote: > I'm in the market for a medium size metal working > vise (I have enough > vices). Harbor Freight has their usual > 'made-in-China' cheapos. I'd > like to pay their price but don't want to be forever > reminded of how > cheap I am when I use it. > > Any other sources of decent quality/reasonable > prices? From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Jun 9 15:12:32 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:12:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] vises In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806091302l1eebf548t69c32318e6b64c@mail.gmail.com> References: <006a01c8ca63$fc0fdc10$ae10c263@ejrussell><3.0.5.32.20080609153414.00a5f428@pop.east.cox.net> <2400a5d40806091302l1eebf548t69c32318e6b64c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c8ca75$885586f0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Chinese and Indian stuff > might be okay. They might not. I've got a vise that I got from Enco. Ditto. Didn't expect the cheap Enco vise to last long, but it was all I could afford at the time. Going on 20 years later, it still works well enough. Given that I use it for cold-forging; and have been known to tighten it with a hammer, that's amazing. However, I was surprised to learn that the jaws are not interchangeable, even with each other ! When I made some substitute smooth jaws, I took a pattern from one jaw and duplicated it for the other jaw ... it didn't fit. Randall From eric at megageek.com Mon Jun 9 17:00:44 2008 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:00:44 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] vises Message-ID: This is one place where ebay is king! I found a great, brand new vise there. It was an import, but for the price, it couldn't be beat! It was a 6' vise, with the pipe vise. I paid something like $20 for it and $60 for shipping. I looked at ebay real quick and didn't find the same vise (I only looked REAL quick). Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Mon Jun 9 18:42:22 2008 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:42:22 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806091234q5ec3257bwa422efe98e421ca3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall><2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com><484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com><2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com><484D6840.10605@b2systems.com><2400a5d40806091106m157be3edvd044f1a74a18b40b@mail.gmail.com><484D7545.5030901@b2systems.com> <2400a5d40806091234q5ec3257bwa422efe98e421ca3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Where I live there are two different options... one is a 400 amp service (one very large breaker) and the other one is called a double 200... It is useful if you have say 200 amps for the house and another 200 for the garage. It is also significanly cheaper. Stuart (with, 100, 200, and double 200 service)... > -----Original Message----- > From: David Scheidt [mailto:dmscheidt at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 12:34 PM > To: Mike Rambour > Cc: Shop-Talk > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen > > On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Mike Rambour > wrote: > > > > > > > > All that is left to decide is which electrician and 300 or 200 amp > > main and get the permits started, work can start on July 15 and we > > want to move in first week of August. > > > > 300 amp service is an odd duck around here. 400 is more > common, as the local utility requires a 400 amp meter with > 300 service, and there's no reason not to take advantage of > it. That may not be the case where you are, of course, but > price it out. > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as stuart.a.galt at boeing.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From bill at gingerich.us Mon Jun 9 21:18:32 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <394557871.9877659.1213067912232.JavaMail.app@com05.prod> LinkedIn ------------ Shop, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. -Bill Learn more: https://www.linkedin.com/e/isd/283616618/0Z79xX2n/ ------------------------------------------ What is LinkedIn? Create new professional opportunities: Find the right people when you're looking for a new job or business opportunity. You never know if and when Bill Gingerich or someone connected to Bill Gingerich will be in a position to help. ------ (c) 2008, LinkedIn Corporation From 57healey at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 07:47:21 2008 From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:47:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <394557871.9877659.1213067912232.JavaMail.app@com05.prod> References: <394557871.9877659.1213067912232.JavaMail.app@com05.prod> Message-ID: <743b1e2f0806100647r41f02d48j20461d6153d6b63a@mail.gmail.com> Bill, I think you have to send it to individuals or the link won't work. Patton On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Bill Gingerich wrote: > LinkedIn > ------------ > Shop, > > I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. > > -Bill -- Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out." From bill at gingerich.us Tue Jun 10 18:55:35 2008 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:55:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f0806100647r41f02d48j20461d6153d6b63a@mail.gmail.com> References: <394557871.9877659.1213067912232.JavaMail.app@com05.prod> <743b1e2f0806100647r41f02d48j20461d6153d6b63a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008801c8cb5d$dc213520$64dea8c0@shack2> Patton, and the rest of the list: My apologies for the email sent yesterday. A couple of members have accused me of Spamming the list. I assure all of you that I don't Spam. I do, it seems, make some fairly impressive mistakes. I've been trying to figure out some of the features of LinkedIn.com, and managed to send a bunch of invitations that weren't meant to be sent. I thought I caught them all, but obviously didn't. Sorry about that! BillG Newalla, OK From cak at dimebank.com Tue Jun 10 21:54:55 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] stair treads Message-ID: <200806110354.m5B3st8e019272@moose.dimebank.com> OK, this isn't *strictly* about a shop, but it's about the deck outside the garage that could some day be my shop. In particular, the stairs that lead up to and away from the deck outside the garage that could some day be my shop. Ahem. We have this redwood deck, with about four steps leading up to it and 11 steps up from the main deck to the second floor. The stair treads are also redwood, either a section of 2x12 or two of 2x6, about 30" wide (I think the four steps are wider). When it snows, as it does in the winter, the snow builds up on the steps and permeates the wood, which then freezes - so even after you clear the snow, the steps are slick. Salt isn't very good for the wood :-) We're getting ready to redo the deck surface. I'd really like to find alternate stair treads. Expanded metal is attractive from a functional standpoint, but pre-made ones are about $60 each! I'd be happy to find some fibreglass or composite ones, but have not managed to. Does anyone have other ideas I might try? Thanks, chris From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Jun 11 03:53:46 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 04:53:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical fire waiting to happen References: <4141.7678.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><20080608151357.ETGI23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall><2400a5d40806081949o7afee712s593a721a3ea1350c@mail.gmail.com><484CD47A.1080904@milleredp.com><2400a5d40806091007y3ef1057s8b0e73f6899f0192@mail.gmail.com><484D6840.10605@b2systems.com> <2400a5d40806091106m157be3edvd044f1a74a18b40b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0B3D914D66654550BE895BFC79017557@KARL> > I've seen 40 amp panels before, in ancient buildings (usually coupled > with knob-and-tube wires). In the late 1940's - early 1950's, many houses around here were built with knob-and-tube wiring because of the steel shortages from WWII and then the Korean War. I've done some rehabs from that era and was amazed the first time I found knob-and-tube wiring in such a "new" house. And standard service was 30-amp around here, with upgraded service being 60-amp. 2 or 4 fuses typical. My house was moved, gutted, and rehabbed in 1951 and it did get steel conduit, but the ductwork is aluminum because aluminum was in greater supply than steel. BTW - you don't want aluminum ducts - they're noisy due to thermal expansion and they oil-can like crazy as well. Karl From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 12:30:15 2008 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:30:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] stair treads In-Reply-To: <200806110354.m5B3st8e019272@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200806110354.m5B3st8e019272@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: *I bought a 30" sheet-metal brake a couple of years back so naturally, I'm attuned to sheet-metal solutions for problems. It occurs to me that a set of c-shaped caps that would snap over the treads for winter could solve your problem . . A tin shop could bend them up for cheap and the small size would let them use "drops" from other jobs. If the caps were only 24 inches wide, it would conserve tin; 2 rows of caps from a 48" sheet. Apply 2 inch traction tape to the edge. Come summer, snap them off and you have your redwood to enjoy.* *Tony in Texas* *(maybe once a year snow)* From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jun 17 11:17:08 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:17:08 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? Message-ID: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> I'm working on plumbing (and wiring) a new air compressor for my shop. Turns out the 3/4" air line needs to run through some decorative cinder block. Any suggestions for how to cut an approximately 1.25" diameter hole through the block, with the least risk of breaking the whole thing in half ? I see HF has spade-type masonry bits to 1", with turned down shanks; but I'm not sure how to enlarge the resulting hole. Any suggestions ? I've got an ordinary 1/2" drill motor; really don't want to have to buy a hammer-drill for just this one project. Also an air chisel, but I'm worried breaking the block with it. Randall From drew at DasRogges.com Tue Jun 17 11:23:26 2008 From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:23:26 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? In-Reply-To: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <4857F30E.9060806@DasRogges.com> Can you get to both sides of the block? If so how about something like one of those hole saws with carbide grit on the edge instead of normal teeth? Of a diamond hole saw that you can get at the rental places? Randall wrote: > I'm working on plumbing (and wiring) a new air compressor for my shop. > Turns out the 3/4" air line needs to run through some decorative cinder > block. > > Any suggestions for how to cut an approximately 1.25" diameter hole through > the block, with the least risk of breaking the whole thing in half ? > > I see HF has spade-type masonry bits to 1", with turned down shanks; but I'm > not sure how to enlarge the resulting hole. > > Any suggestions ? I've got an ordinary 1/2" drill motor; really don't want > to have to buy a hammer-drill for just this one project. Also an air > chisel, but I'm worried breaking the block with it. > > Randall From mark at sccaprepared.com Tue Jun 17 11:26:01 2008 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? In-Reply-To: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 17 Jun 2008, Randall wrote: > I'm working on plumbing (and wiring) a new air compressor for my shop. > Turns out the 3/4" air line needs to run through some decorative cinder > block. > > Any suggestions for how to cut an approximately 1.25" diameter hole > through the block, with the least risk of breaking the whole thing in > half ? > > I see HF has spade-type masonry bits to 1", with turned down shanks; but > I'm not sure how to enlarge the resulting hole. > > Any suggestions ? I've got an ordinary 1/2" drill motor; really don't > want to have to buy a hammer-drill for just this one project. Also an > air chisel, but I'm worried breaking the block with it. Rent a masonry drill & appropriate bit? Or buy this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41983 They also have an SDS bit kit that has a 1" bit. Biggest McMaster sells is a 1+1/8" bit... That's not big enough for a 3/4" air line? Mark From bottorff25 at verizon.net Tue Jun 17 11:53:47 2008 From: bottorff25 at verizon.net (bottorff25 at verizon.net) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:53:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? Message-ID: <29872123.3887321213725227253.JavaMail.root@vms227.mailsrvcs.net> "Or buy this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41983" Mark I bought that same drill recently in order to chisel up about 500 square feet of ceramic tile from a concrete slab. It held up well even though it was in continuous use running in hammer mode for hours and hours at a time. I was prepared to consider it disposable but I'll hang on to it. Only thing I had to do was put some good synthetic grease in it. The stuff it's supplied with over heats and breaks down after about 30 minutes of continuous hard use. You could feel the gearbox begin to overheat and get a little noisy until I swapped out the grease. If only drilling holes I can't imagine it would ever be a problem though. The drill will take any SDS bit. -Damon From cak at dimebank.com Tue Jun 17 12:12:23 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:12:23 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? In-Reply-To: References: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <4857FE87.9000509@dimebank.com> Core drill core drill core drill... you probably don't need a hammer, just a big drill motor. Rent it all at the local tool yard. From opposumking at verizon.net Tue Jun 17 12:43:07 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:43:07 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? References: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <001001c8d0a9$fc790860$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> > Any suggestions for how to cut an approximately 1.25" diameter hole > through > the block, with the least risk of breaking the whole thing in half ? True cinderblocks and the like are quite soft, and a simple masonry bit spinning in a regular drill will go through it quite readily. Now if it's a true cement block, those are quite a bit harder, and you are likely to find yourself needing an impact hammer. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jun 17 13:12:14 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:12:14 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? In-Reply-To: <001001c8d0a9$fc790860$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <20080617191214.FBFN7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > True cinderblocks and the like are quite soft, and a simple > masonry bit spinning in a regular drill will go through it > quite readily. Yup, just cinder block. Soft (compared to concrete) and fragile. Thanks to all that replied. The 3/4" pipe I'm using is a bit under 1-1/8" diameter; but needs to be sloped for water drainage and I didn't want to worry about getting the hole at exactly the right angle. In fact, 1-1/2" would probably be better. Not sure what I'll do, but I'll check around for tool rental places. Randall From pethier at comcast.net Tue Jun 17 14:31:16 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:31:16 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? Message-ID: <061720082031.16136.48581F140004F80500003F0822165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> > I'm working on plumbing (and wiring) a new air compressor for my shop. > Turns out the 3/4" air line needs to run through some decorative cinder > block. > > Any suggestions for how to cut an approximately 1.25" diameter hole through > the block, with the least risk of breaking the whole thing in half ? > > I see HF has spade-type masonry bits to 1", with turned down shanks; but I'm > not sure how to enlarge the resulting hole. > > Any suggestions ? I've got an ordinary 1/2" drill motor; really don't want > to have to buy a hammer-drill for just this one project. Also an air > chisel, but I'm worried breaking the block with it. > > Randall Here is what works for me. I have a star drill, which is normally held in your left hand, struck with a five-pound mason's hammer, rotated slightly, struck again, repeated until you are fatigued and still staring at an intimidating job. To automate this a little: First I drilled a 3/8 hole in the concrete wall with a masonry drill. I have one long enough to go through a wall. I drilled a shallow hole in the butt end of the star drill. Then I put the pointed tool in my air chisel. Put a heavy leather glove on my left hand and held the star drill up to the small hole in the concrete. Stuck the air-chisel point in the shallow hole on the back of the star drill and squeezed the trigger. I made sure that I kept rotating the star drill back and forth with my left hand. (This is very important. If you don't keep the star drill moving, it will get stuck in the hole. ) This made short work of putting large holes in concrete. It's amazing the shiny polished look the shallow hole in the back end of the star drill acquires. :-) -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 14:38:14 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:38:14 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? In-Reply-To: <061720082031.16136.48581F140004F80500003F0822165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> References: <061720082031.16136.48581F140004F80500003F0822165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806171338x4c2d983fs8f8322a46e0764d3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 4:31 PM, wrote: >> > > Here is what works for me. I have a star drill, which is normally held in your left hand, struck with a five-pound mason's hammer, rotated slightly, struck again, repeated until you are fatigued and still staring at an intimidating job. > > To automate this a little: > > First I drilled a 3/8 hole in the concrete wall with a masonry drill. I have one long enough to go through a wall. > > I drilled a shallow hole in the butt end of the star drill. Then I put the pointed tool in my air chisel. Put a heavy leather glove on my left hand and held the star drill up to the small hole in the concrete. Stuck the air-chisel point in the shallow hole on the back of the star drill and squeezed the trigger. I made sure that I kept rotating the star drill back and forth with my left hand. (This is very important. If you don't keep the star drill moving, it will get stuck in the hole. ) This made short work of putting large holes in concrete. > > It's amazing the shiny polished look the shallow hole in the back end of the star drill acquires. :-) Much easier method: buy a star drill that fits the air hammer. My air hammer came with one, though I think it's only 1/2". I've seen them much bigger. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From pethier at comcast.net Tue Jun 17 15:12:14 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? Message-ID: <061720082112.15082.485828AE00083DBB00003AEA22165514069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "David Scheidt" > Much easier method: buy a star drill that fits the air hammer. My > air hammer came with one, though I think it's only 1/2". I've seen > them much bigger. Well, sure, if you want to do it the easy way. :-) Seriously, I was able to do this with tools I had on hand. I had no idea you could buy star drills over an inch for these little air chisels. Quite frankly, I wouln't have spent the money since I was lucky enought to have a big star drill on hand. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From tvacc at lotusowners.com Tue Jun 17 22:53:56 2008 From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:53:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? In-Reply-To: References: <20080617171707.CTIY7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <005301c8d0ff$5098fae0$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local> I don't know if this has been suggested as I have not seen all the posts...but.... What about just a star drill and a hammer? It is only one hole..right? -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+tvacc=lotusowners.com at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tvacc=lotusowners.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Chris Kantarjiev Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:31 PM To: Shop-Talk Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 1" hole through cinder block ? Core drill core drill core drill... you probably don't need a hammer, just a big drill motor. Rent it all at the local tool yard. You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jandkstone99 at msn.com Wed Jun 18 17:18:15 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:18:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autolifters Message-ID: I know this group has discussed lifts many times and I swear I saved the relevant discussions, but I can't find them now that I need them. So, my apologies in advance for bringing up this topic yet again. Still... Someone near me is selling a used Autolifters 2-post lift. He is asking $1500. I haven't gone to see it yet, but he's the second owner. For what its worth, he said the original owner used it to store one Shelby above another. He is currently using it to store a Jeep. I want it for something considerably lighter: a Sunbeam Alpine. I just did a little surfing on Autolifters and learned that there have been problems with some of the four post models and some concern about pulley bearings, but in general they seem to have been well made. However, the company went bankrupt, apparently put out of business by cheap imports. It makes me nervous to buy a used one in the first place (but unnecessarily spending a few thousand more makes me even more nervous); one from an out of business company just adds to the concerns. So, I have two main questions: 1) Am I completely stupid to trust life and limb (not to mention two Alpines) to a used lift from a company no longer in business? And, if the answer to the first question is not a resounding "Yes": 2) what should I look at to determine if this particular lift is worth buying? (BTW: for what it's worth, my garage was built with a lift in mind, so I have plenty of room to put one in and already have the garage door tracks mounted up high.) As always, thanks for the advice and input. This list is a wonderful resource! Jim _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashbac k From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Jun 18 17:51:03 2008 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:51:03 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autolifters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would never store a car on a 2-post lift. That's an unnatural position for the suspension to be hanging in and supposedly will destroy the bushings and such in short order. As far as the brand is concerned, I can't help you. I have a Direct-Lift 4-post lift I got from Greg Smith Equipment and didn't pay much more for my new lift than you're looking to spend on the used one though. -Paul On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > I know this group has discussed lifts many times and I swear I saved the > relevant discussions, but I can't find them now that I need them. So, my > apologies in advance for bringing up this topic yet again. Still... > > Someone near me is selling a used Autolifters 2-post lift. He is asking > $1500. I haven't gone to see it yet, but he's the second owner. For what its > worth, he said the original owner used it to store one Shelby above another. > He is currently using it to store a Jeep. I want it for something > considerably lighter: a Sunbeam Alpine. > > I just did a little surfing on Autolifters and learned that there have been > problems with some of the four post models and some concern about pulley > bearings, but in general they seem to have been well made. However, the > company went bankrupt, apparently put out of business by cheap imports. It > makes me nervous to buy a used one in the first place (but unnecessarily > spending a few thousand more makes me even more nervous); one from an out of > business company just adds to the concerns. > > So, I have two main questions: 1) Am I completely stupid to trust life and > limb (not to mention two Alpines) to a used lift from a company no longer in > business? And, if the answer to the first question is not a resounding "Yes": > 2) what should I look at to determine if this particular lift is worth > buying? (BTW: for what it's worth, my garage was built with a lift in mind, > so I have plenty of room to put one in and already have the garage door tracks > mounted up high.) > > As always, thanks for the advice and input. This list is a wonderful > resource! > > Jim From lspector at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 11:36:05 2008 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:36:05 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autolifters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167503c10806191036n47cefb44w784624f903c9869d@mail.gmail.com> Jim, I think you need to decide what it is that you want to use the lift for, then decide which lift type (2-post/4-post) to go after. Regarding the Autolifters 2-post- what's the scenario for parts or accessories? Has anyone stepped in to provide them? I wouldn't necessarily jump on it just because it's close/cheap. I have a Bend-Pak 4 post myself. I waffled between 2 and 4 posts for a while, before I admitted to myself that it was for storage first, and repair work second. IMHO, a 4 post is much better for storage. It's easier to use (drive-on, drive-off), and doesn't leave the suspension at full droop when the car's in the air. I purchased a rolling jack as well, so I can lift the car while it's on the lift! Regards, Larry On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > I would never store a car on a 2-post lift. That's an unnatural > position for the suspension to be hanging in and supposedly will > destroy the bushings and such in short order. > > As far as the brand is concerned, I can't help you. I have a > Direct-Lift 4-post lift I got from Greg Smith Equipment and didn't pay > much more for my new lift than you're looking to spend on the used one > though. > > -Paul > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > > I know this group has discussed lifts many times and I swear I saved the > > relevant discussions, but I can't find them now that I need them. So, my > > apologies in advance for bringing up this topic yet again. Still... > > > > Someone near me is selling a used Autolifters 2-post lift. He is asking > > $1500. I haven't gone to see it yet, but he's the second owner. For > what its > > worth, he said the original owner used it to store one Shelby above > another. > > He is currently using it to store a Jeep. I want it for something > > considerably lighter: a Sunbeam Alpine. > > > > I just did a little surfing on Autolifters and learned that there have > been > > problems with some of the four post models and some concern about pulley > > bearings, but in general they seem to have been well made. However, the > > company went bankrupt, apparently put out of business by cheap imports. > It > > makes me nervous to buy a used one in the first place (but unnecessarily > > spending a few thousand more makes me even more nervous); one from an out > of > > business company just adds to the concerns. > > > > So, I have two main questions: 1) Am I completely stupid to trust life > and > > limb (not to mention two Alpines) to a used lift from a company no longer > in > > business? And, if the answer to the first question is not a resounding > "Yes": > > 2) what should I look at to determine if this particular lift is worth > > buying? (BTW: for what it's worth, my garage was built with a lift in > mind, > > so I have plenty of room to put one in and already have the garage door > tracks > > mounted up high.) > > > > As always, thanks for the advice and input. This list is a wonderful > > resource! > > > > Jim From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sat Jun 21 06:38:11 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 07:38:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autolifters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Guys! I am going to pass on the used lift. I was not aware that a 2-post lift wasn't supposed to be used for storage, so that is important info. Combined with my other concerns, this is a non-starter. I also appreciate knowing about Greg Smith; I'll give them a call. Jim > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:51:03 -0400 > From: parkanzky at gmail.com > To: jandkstone99 at msn.com > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Autolifters > CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net > > I would never store a car on a 2-post lift. That's an unnatural > position for the suspension to be hanging in and supposedly will > destroy the bushings and such in short order. > > As far as the brand is concerned, I can't help you. I have a > Direct-Lift 4-post lift I got from Greg Smith Equipment and didn't pay > much more for my new lift than you're looking to spend on the used one > though. > > -Paul > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Jim Stone wrote: > > I know this group has discussed lifts many times and I swear I saved the > > relevant discussions, but I can't find them now that I need them. So, my > > apologies in advance for bringing up this topic yet again. Still... > > > > Someone near me is selling a used Autolifters 2-post lift. He is asking > > $1500. I haven't gone to see it yet, but he's the second owner. For what its > > worth, he said the original owner used it to store one Shelby above another. > > He is currently using it to store a Jeep. I want it for something > > considerably lighter: a Sunbeam Alpine. > > > > I just did a little surfing on Autolifters and learned that there have been > > problems with some of the four post models and some concern about pulley > > bearings, but in general they seem to have been well made. However, the > > company went bankrupt, apparently put out of business by cheap imports. It > > makes me nervous to buy a used one in the first place (but unnecessarily > > spending a few thousand more makes me even more nervous); one from an out of > > business company just adds to the concerns. > > > > So, I have two main questions: 1) Am I completely stupid to trust life and > > limb (not to mention two Alpines) to a used lift from a company no longer in > > business? And, if the answer to the first question is not a resounding "Yes": > > 2) what should I look at to determine if this particular lift is worth > > buying? (BTW: for what it's worth, my garage was built with a lift in mind, > > so I have plenty of room to put one in and already have the garage door tracks > > mounted up high.) > > > > As always, thanks for the advice and input. This list is a wonderful > > resource! > > > > Jim > > _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashbac k From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 10:46:59 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:46:59 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water Message-ID: <2400a5d40806210946l4546686ft1aa3b38b801efeb8@mail.gmail.com> We've suddenly got really hot water (170F!) coming out of faucets. The water heater is a pretty standard double element electric job. I opened the covers, and the settings were where I'd expect them to be (right in the middle.) The upper element is hot to the touch. I've cranked its setting down, and I'll see if that makes a difference once we've used up some hot water. Do the elements ever stick on, or is it likely to be that the thermostat has died? (and is there a way to test it?) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jun 21 14:39:46 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:39:46 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806210946l4546686ft1aa3b38b801efeb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080621203946.USUQ9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Do the elements ever stick on, Impossible; they don't get power when the thermostat is open. > or is it likely to be > that the thermostat has died? Seems likely to me. > (and is there a way to test it?) I'm guessing that, if you get it off, you'll want to replace it anyway. But if not, you should be able to do the old "pan of water on the stove" thing. If your wife doesn't have a "candy" thermometer, you can pick one up at the grocery store fairly cheaply. Randall From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 14:59:33 2008 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:59:33 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <20080621203946.USUQ9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <2400a5d40806210946l4546686ft1aa3b38b801efeb8@mail.gmail.com> <20080621203946.USUQ9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: Incidentally, anyone know what is the maximum temp. that a copper with solder (or other, like PEX) potable water system designed to handle, in case a thermostat fails open? (I recently used PEX and SharkBite fittings while doing some remodeling of a bathroom.) Might be a good time to test the water heater's water pressure relief valve too. -PJ > From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:39:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Really hot water > >> Do the elements ever stick on, > > Impossible; they don't get power when the thermostat is open. > >> or is it likely to be >> that the thermostat has died? > > Seems likely to me. > >> (and is there a way to test it?) > > I'm guessing that, if you get it off, you'll want to replace it anyway. But > if not, you should be able to do the old "pan of water on the stove" thing. > If your wife doesn't have a "candy" thermometer, you can pick one up at the > grocery store fairly cheaply. > > Randall _________________________________________________________________ Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 15:18:01 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:18:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <20080621203946.USUQ9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <2400a5d40806210946l4546686ft1aa3b38b801efeb8@mail.gmail.com> <20080621203946.USUQ9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806211418g4942a43aya669c1faa38164a@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Randall wrote: >> Do the elements ever stick on, > > Impossible; they don't get power when the thermostat is open. > >> or is it likely to be >> that the thermostat has died? > > Seems likely to me. > >> (and is there a way to test it?) > > I'm guessing that, if you get it off, you'll want to replace it anyway. But > if not, you should be able to do the old "pan of water on the stove" thing. > If your wife doesn't have a "candy" thermometer, you can pick one up at the > grocery store fairly cheaply. So the water continued to get really, really hot, even with both 'stats set at their minimum setting. The water temperature at the kitchen faucet reached 190F, and the temp limiting switch do-hickey tripped. I shut the supply off, drained the system, and have the stats at their lowest temperature. The water is hotter than it ought to be, and the lower element is still on. I'm going to go see if the local hardware has replacement 'stats. If not, I'll have to wait until monday. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jun 21 15:23:48 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:23:48 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806211418g4942a43aya669c1faa38164a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080621212348.ORIZ27427.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall> > I'm going to go see if the > local hardware has replacement 'stats. If not, I'll have to > wait until monday. I know you don't want to hear this, but I'm going to say it anyway ... chances are you should just replace the whole heater. The tanks don't last forever and if yours has already outlived a thermostat, it probably doesn't have much longer. Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 17:49:10 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:49:10 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <20080621212348.ORIZ27427.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <2400a5d40806211418g4942a43aya669c1faa38164a@mail.gmail.com> <20080621212348.ORIZ27427.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806211649u1240cf8ancc97b431f8a8354b@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Randall wrote: >> I'm going to go see if the >> local hardware has replacement 'stats. If not, I'll have to >> wait until monday. > > I know you don't want to hear this, but I'm going to say it anyway ... > chances are you should just replace the whole heater. The tanks don't last > forever and if yours has already outlived a thermostat, it probably doesn't > have much longer. > It's four years old, and has a 10 year warranty on the tank. I think it's worth $20 in thermostats. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Jun 21 18:04:18 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:04:18 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806211649u1240cf8ancc97b431f8a8354b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080622000418.WIEO9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > It's four years old, Yikes ! Sure don't make them like they used to. In that case I agree with you. Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 18:20:38 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:20:38 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <20080622000418.WIEO9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <2400a5d40806211649u1240cf8ancc97b431f8a8354b@mail.gmail.com> <20080622000418.WIEO9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806211720s4db0f9bfo9326faa6341f6af4@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Randall wrote: >> It's four years old, > > Yikes ! Sure don't make them like they used to. > > In that case I agree with you. Yeah, I'm pretty annoyed. The unit was defective at installation (the lower element didn't work), and shortly after they fixed it, there was something else that got done under a recall. I suspect if I called the plumbers who installed it and raised a stink, they'd take care of it (even though the waranty is out on the heating bits), but I kind of want hot water before thursday... -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 22:31:12 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:31:12 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806210946l4546686ft1aa3b38b801efeb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40806210946l4546686ft1aa3b38b801efeb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806212131m1e3501fdu640ee874cc5d5226@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:46 PM, David Scheidt wrote: > We've suddenly got really hot water (170F!) coming out of faucets. > The water heater is a pretty standard double element electric job. I > opened the covers, and the settings were where I'd expect them to be > (right in the middle.) The upper element is hot to the touch. I've > cranked its setting down, and I'll see if that makes a difference once > we've used up some hot water. Do the elements ever stick on, or is it > likely to be that the thermostat has died? (and is there a way to > test it?) For the benefit of the archives: What happened in my case was that the lower element's thermostat welded its contacts together, leaving the element on constantly, until the thermal safety switch tripped. Here's some discussion of the theory of these things, and some troubleshooting. (I didn't find much in a brief web search.) Most dual element electric water heaters are set up for non-simultaneous operation. In other words, only one element can be on at a time. The theory is that when you start from dead cold, the top element switches on and heats the top of the tank, which provides usable hot water sooner. Once the top is heated, the bottom element comes on, and does most of the work. (I assume there's some sort of baffle to encourage stratification of the water, but I'm not cutting my tank up to find out.) So, in this system there are two thermostats, one for each element. The thermostats read the temperature through the side of the tank, so they need to be firmly pressed against it. The top thermostat is, in fact, two thermostats, hooked in series. The first of these has the power inputs from the house wiring, and thermal overload safety. It's reset with a button on the ones I've got. One of the outputs is permanently jumper to the thermostat it's in series with. The other output goes to one side of both the upper and lower elements. The themostat in series has two outputs; they're the inverse of each other -- when one is on, the other is off. One goes to the other side of the top element; the other is the input to the bottom element's thermostat. The lower element's thermostat is much simpler. It's got one input, from the output of the upper element's thermostat, and one output, to one side of the heating element. The wiring diagram included with the replacement thermostats makes this much clearer than my words do. It also makes clear the obvious trouble shooting test. If an element is powered, it's got 240 volts across it. Putting a voltmeter on the two contacts of the element, and then turning the knob on its thermostat should cause it to cycle on and off. (I can actually hear mine click, too.) (The bottom won't be powered if the top is on, remember.) -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sun Jun 22 08:05:17 2008 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:05:17 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806211720s4db0f9bfo9326faa6341f6af4@mail.gmail.com> References: <2400a5d40806211649u1240cf8ancc97b431f8a8354b@mail.gmail.com> <20080622000418.WIEO9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806211720s4db0f9bfo9326faa6341f6af4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080622140517.GA75631@sackheads.org> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 08:20:38PM -0400, David Scheidt wrote: > Yeah, I'm pretty annoyed. The unit was defective at installation (the > lower element didn't work), and shortly after they fixed it, there was > something else that got done under a recall. I suspect if I called > the plumbers who installed it and raised a stink, they'd take care of > it (even though the waranty is out on the heating bits), but I kind of > want hot water before thursday... Given that each element in an electric water heater is typically around 5000W, you could be looking at a fairly annoying electric bill next month depending on how long this went undetected and where you live. That alone might be worth raising a stink with the manufacturer or installers. Jimmie From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Sun Jun 22 10:41:38 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:41:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Really hot water In-Reply-To: <20080622140517.GA75631@sackheads.org> References: <2400a5d40806211649u1240cf8ancc97b431f8a8354b@mail.gmail.com> <20080622000418.WIEO9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <2400a5d40806211720s4db0f9bfo9326faa6341f6af4@mail.gmail.com> <20080622140517.GA75631@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <485E80C2.1010800@HorneSystemsTx.com> If you can't find a thermostat right away, just disconnect the element that is staying on all the time. This will at least give you normal temperature hot water, but just not as fast a recycle time as a fully functional water heater Peace, Pat > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release Date: 6/21/2008 9:27 AM > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Jun 23 12:40:53 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? Message-ID: <67060.27206.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, My water company has been sending me stuff warning of the horrors I would experience if the water or sewer lines from the curb to my house were to fail, and urging me to subscribe to their protection program (for about $14 per month). Does anyone know if these plans are ever useful in practice? Or are they crippled by exclusions, deductibles, etc? I guess their potential value would depend on the likelihood of having problems with the lines. My house was built in the mid '70's, and is about 120 feet from the curb, with a bunch of decent-size trees between the house and the curb. I have lived here only three years, and have had no trouble with roots, etc. What is the typical life expectancy of a sewer line, anyway? Thanks, Doug From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 12:43:33 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:43:33 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? In-Reply-To: <67060.27206.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <67060.27206.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806231143y5ebea4acv75a6f7b04e3051f4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Doug Braun wrote: > Hello, > > My water company has been sending me stuff warning of > the horrors I would experience if the water or sewer > lines from the curb to my house were to fail, and > urging me to subscribe to their protection program > (for about $14 per month). If they're pushing them, they're probably not a good deal. > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From pethier at comcast.net Mon Jun 23 13:28:17 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:28:17 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? Message-ID: <062320081928.7629.485FF951000686CF00001DCD22120207849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> What mateial is your sewer service? If it is clay, buy the coverage. Maybe have the line televised. That would cost a couple hundred bucks. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Doug Braun > Hello, > > My water company has been sending me stuff warning of > the horrors I would experience if the water or sewer > lines from the curb to my house were to fail, and > urging me to subscribe to their protection program > (for about $14 per month). > > Does anyone know if these plans are ever useful in > practice? Or are they crippled by exclusions, > deductibles, etc? > > I guess their potential value would depend on the > likelihood of having problems with the lines. My > house was built in the mid '70's, and is about 120 > feet from the curb, with a bunch of decent-size trees > between the house and the curb. I have lived here > only three years, and have had no trouble with roots, > etc. What is the typical life expectancy of a sewer > line, anyway? > > Thanks, > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From BSHolden at aol.com Mon Jun 23 13:39:37 2008 From: BSHolden at aol.com (BSHolden at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:39:37 EDT Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? Message-ID: As is typical with all insurances.....the insurance company takes your money and will be damned to pay on a claim without negotiation. Kinda like home warranties, of which I advise all of my clients to avoid. Insurance is nothing more than legalized gambling. Save your money for the casinos, where you can expect a better ROI. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 6/23/2008 1:41:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, doug at dougbraun.com writes: My water company has been sending me stuff warning of the horrors I would experience if the water or sewer lines from the curb to my house were to fail, and urging me to subscribe to their protection program (for about $14 per month). Does anyone know if these plans are ever useful in practice? Or are they crippled by exclusions, deductibles, etc? I guess their potential value would depend on the likelihood of having problems with the lines. My house was built in the mid '70's, and is about 120 feet from the curb, with a bunch of decent-size trees between the house and the curb. I have lived here only three years, and have had no trouble with roots, etc. What is the typical life expectancy of a sewer line, anyway? **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From rusd at sitestar.net Mon Jun 23 14:12:38 2008 From: rusd at sitestar.net (Dave Russell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:12:38 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? In-Reply-To: <67060.27206.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <67060.27206.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486003B6.7030602@sitestar.net> I don't know about the sewer line. Mine is 50 year old Transite. It has never caused a problem. Our water meter is at the curb. The line from meter to house is the owners responsibility. In 1985 the galvanized iron pipe sprung a leak. It first showed as an increasingly large bulge in the lawn sod. It got to about 10 ft. in diameter & 10 inches high. You could walk on the raised area & feel is spring. Poked a couple of holes in the sod & geysers errupted. Plumber dug a few holes down to the water line, about 5 ft. deep. Pinholes in the galvanizing had allowed rust through. The pipe was 30 years old at the time. Plumber replaced the line with Polybuteline or some such. Large deep trench across entire front yard. Water company, at the time, removed the $500 for extra consumption on the water bill. I don't know how they handle it now. I never subscribed to the "water guard" insurance program. Last year, my neighbors waterline sprung a leak. Plumbers spent several days trenching & replacing the line. He had some kind of water company insurance plan that paid the entire bill. I guess you have to balance the cost of insurance against the very high cost of replacing a line. You could get estimates for current line replacement costs to help make a decision. Whether your present line is plastic, copper, iron, or? will have a bearing on how much longer it may last. Dave Doug Braun wrote: >Hello, > >My water company has been sending me stuff warning of >the horrors I would experience if the water or sewer >lines from the curb to my house were to fail, and >urging me to subscribe to their protection program >(for about $14 per month). > >Does anyone know if these plans are ever useful in >practice? Or are they crippled by exclusions, >deductibles, etc? > >I guess their potential value would depend on the >likelihood of having problems with the lines. My >house was built in the mid '70's, and is about 120 >feet from the curb, with a bunch of decent-size trees >between the house and the curb. I have lived here >only three years, and have had no trouble with roots, >etc. What is the typical life expectancy of a sewer >line, anyway? > >Thanks, > >Doug From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Jun 23 16:37:17 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806231143y5ebea4acv75a6f7b04e3051f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <660654.93720.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Naturally that was my first reaction, but given the length and age of my lines, it may not be such a bad deal, unless they have some way of weaseling out of it. The situation is sort of different than an extended warranty for a new product, where each potential customer is more or less the same. Doug --- David Scheidt wrote: > If they're pushing them, they're probably not a good > deal. From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Mon Jun 23 16:52:48 2008 From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:52:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? In-Reply-To: <660654.93720.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <660654.93720.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48602940.3060705@HorneSystemsTx.com> Call several plumbers and ask what the replacement cost would be on your yard lines. This will give you an idea as to when the break-even point would be. This would not take into account the cost increase of the replacement in the future, but would give you something to compare the monthly payment to. If you can live with the replacement costs, then don't go with the insurance. If you can't handle the sum at one time, then the insurance may be good for your situation. Also, these insurance policy promotions are usually not from the utility, but an outside company that gives the utility kickback for each customer signed up. If you can find out who the company is, check them out with the BBB, or Google. Peace, Pat > _________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1514 - Release Date: 6/23/2008 7:17 AM > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From eric at megageek.com Mon Jun 23 17:27:56 2008 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:27:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Improving celluar modem's ranges (non-moto, I need some assitance however) Message-ID: I'm stuck here in the middle of the texas/NM desert and I can barely (but mostly "not") get a signal on my verizon wireless internet modem card. There is a port for an external antenna, but I don't know if it will help. Note, I do get excellent reception a few miles away, so there is coverage out here. Question 1, can someone help me find the correct antenna to buy to improve the coverage? I have a Verizon v620 card "Qualcomm 36 cdma." Second question, does anyone know if something like this will work? http://www.wilsonelectronics.com/Products.php?Type=B This way others can use it. (I would be interested if the cost was under $1000.) Anyone that can help would be appreciated. Once I have better access to the internet, I can explain why the service here is so crappy. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From mbarre at juno.com Mon Jun 23 18:55:00 2008 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:55:00 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Improving celluar modem's ranges (non-moto, I need som e assitance however) Message-ID: <20080623.205500.18709.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> Believe it or not, the cantenna actually works pretty well! I think there is a good "how to" page on the web via either google or wikipedia that shows a slightly larger diameter version for cell phone freqs. Matt -- eric at megageek.com wrote: I'm stuck here in the middle of the texas/NM desert and I can barely (but mostly "not") get a signal on my verizon wireless internet modem card. There is a port for an external antenna, but I don't know if it will help. Note, I do get excellent reception a few miles away, so there is coverage out here. Question 1, can someone help me find the correct antenna to buy to improve the coverage? I have a Verizon v620 card "Qualcomm 36 cdma." Second question, does anyone know if something like this will work? http://www.wilsonelectronics.com/Products.php?Type=B This way others can use it. (I would be interested if the cost was under $1000.) Anyone that can help would be appreciated. Once I have better access to the internet, I can explain why the service here is so crappy. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive ____________________________________________________________ Make all systems go with these great constipation treatments! Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nrCyZO3LiuH1vClG8Nd4VwtN5a 37cFidhazhC4MuuNlmfye/ From trevor at boicey.com Mon Jun 23 18:58:52 2008 From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:58:52 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Improving celluar modem's ranges (non-moto, I need some assitance however) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486046CC.2000709@boicey.com> eric at megageek.com wrote: > I'm stuck here in the middle of the texas/NM desert and I can barely (but > mostly "not") get a signal on my verizon wireless internet modem card. An externally mounted Yagi is tried and true, and connecting it to the external antenna port is mostly just a question of identifying the connectors you have and buying the right cable. Aiming the Yagi by trial an error is usually enough if you have a basic idea of where the tower is. I used a 14db yagi at my cottage for a few years with a 3W bag phone. The yagi is probably a good first purchase since it might work on it's own. But if it doesn't work, a power booster can be used with the same Yagi. The power booster will help you if the wireless card cannot put out enough signal to be heard by the nearest cell tower. It won't help as much as it might sound like from the advertising, but if the Yagi makes your signal acceptable then the booster might make it a little more stable. As well the wireless boosters remove the need to wire in the antenna to the card, useful if you are talking about something like a laptop and a wireless EVDO stick. http://www.cellantenna.com is another source. From jnew at hazelden.ca Tue Jun 24 09:03:19 2008 From: jnew at hazelden.ca (John P. New) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:03:19 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Service Line Protection Programs? In-Reply-To: <486003B6.7030602@sitestar.net> References: <67060.27206.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <486003B6.7030602@sitestar.net> Message-ID: <200806241103.19659.jnew@hazelden.ca> Interesting that you replaced the water lines by trenching. I remember as a kid in the 70's watching our water line being replaced. In the basement, they attached a coil of flexible copper pipe to the old galvanized line. Then they dug a hole at the water valve at the curb, attached the backhoe bucket to the disconnected water line, and pulled. I remember running back and forth between the curb and the basement to watch them feed the copper pipe through the foundation. I can't remember how long it took, but pretty quickly I saw a brand new copper line emerge into the hole around the water valve. A few connections and the job was done, no trenching involved. I just Google-mapped the house, and I would say that the water service is about a 65-foot run, through soil which is probably pretty gravelly (on the shores of Lake Ontario). I'm sure there are limitations on this technique, such as line length and condition, as well as the type of soil the line is in. John P. New London, Ontario, Canada On June 23, 2008 04:12 pm, Dave Russell wrote: > some such. Large deep trench across entire front yard. Water company, at ... > > Last year, my neighbors waterline sprung a leak. Plumbers spent several > days trenching & replacing the line. He had some kind of water company From battmain at yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 13:54:58 2008 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Improving celluar modem's ranges (non-moto, I need some assitance however) Message-ID: <173126.70596.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Try Ebay. Haven't ordered one yet for my card, 'cuz I've been busy, but I've been looking at them. Here is one for your card... http://cgi.ebay.com/11db-Antenna-fits-Verizon-V620-V640-U630-Cingular-U730_W0 QQitemZ290239972263QQihZ019QQcategoryZ20336QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI tem Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: "eric at megageek.com" (snip) Subject: [Shop-talk] Improving celluar modem's ranges (non-moto, I need some assitance however) (snip)There is a port for an external antenna, but I don't know if it will help. Note, I do get excellent reception a few miles away, so there is coverage out here. Question 1, can someone help me find the correct antenna to buy to improve the coverage? I have a Verizon v620 card "Qualcomm 36 cdma." (snip) (snip) From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Jun 25 18:19:50 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:19:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] EDGER BLADES Message-ID: <012501c8d722$59f94f30$6401a8c0@niolon> I've got the standard gas powered edger that the box stores sell... think it's a 3hp MTD brand and it does a decent job. It uses a 9" long blade that is 2" wide and about 3/32 thick. My blade was worn to badly to use yesterday so I cut another from some stock the same thickness. It worked ok but I noticed that when I finished, instead of wearing down evenly it was ragged and bent (probably from a sidewalk hit or two. What do they do to the regular blades to make them stronger... heat treat ?? special material ?? I've got plenty of stock and can cut them (at 7 bucks a piece plus gas it might be worth it) but need to know how to 'treat' them to get them to last longer... thanks John 'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Jun 25 18:35:27 2008 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:35:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] EDGER BLADES References: <012501c8d722$59f94f30$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <36CDE64D8FE841C9BB3D33C45FF24100@KARL> I buy what sound like the same blades (for my Homelite trimmer) for a couple of bucks apiece. Hardly worth the trouble to make and heat treat them. There's a distributor of small engine parts a mile from me, and he carries many sizes and shapes of generic blades - excellent quality - all I've bought have been at least as good as OEM. Possibly Oregon brand... I'm sure they'd ship... If you're interested contact me off-line and I'll give you contact info. KVacek at Ameritech.net Karl > I've got the standard gas powered edger that the box stores sell... think > it's a 3hp MTD brand and it does a decent job. It uses a 9" long blade > that > is 2" wide and about 3/32 thick. My blade was worn to badly to use > yesterday so I cut another from some stock the same thickness. It worked > ok > but I noticed that when I finished, instead of wearing down evenly it was > ragged and bent (probably from a sidewalk hit or two. > > What do they do to the regular blades to make them stronger... heat treat > ?? > special material ?? I've got plenty of stock and can cut them (at 7 bucks > a > piece plus gas it might be worth it) but need to know how to 'treat' them > to > get them to last longer... > > thanks > John From cavanadd at verizon.net Wed Jun 25 21:32:03 2008 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:32:03 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] EDGER BLADES In-Reply-To: <012501c8d722$59f94f30$6401a8c0@niolon> References: <012501c8d722$59f94f30$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <0K310031DWHKUQG4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> At 05:19 PM 6/25/2008, john niolon wrote: >What do they do to the regular blades to make them stronger... heat treat ?? >special material ?? I've got plenty of stock and can cut them (at 7 bucks a >piece plus gas it might be worth it) but need to know how to 'treat' them to >get them to last longer... I imagine the regular edger blades are made from a medium carbon steel, something with enough carbon in it to make it heat treatable and then annealed. Regular mild steel, like you probably made your blade from, doesn't have enough carbon in it for heat treatment. Dave C From jamesf at groupwbench.org Thu Jun 26 07:21:56 2008 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:21:56 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mystery pipe in foundation Message-ID: <5FCBCAD8-4818-4E4C-A918-2D08675A2252@groupwbench.org> I have a stone & mortar foundation in MA, built in 1926. I tore down the 1970s knotty pine wall and came across a 3/4" iron pipe coming through the foundation like a water pipe would. Except it's only a foot below the ground. Keyspan has no record of there being gas at the house but there is gas at the street. Could it be anything other than gas? It's capped off but there's no valve. There's also a disconnected iron pipe up in the joist bay with an elbow that lines up with this, but no holes in the subfloor. Keyspan's coming out next week for a look. thanks, jim From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Jun 26 08:23:45 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:23:45 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mystery pipe in foundation References: <5FCBCAD8-4818-4E4C-A918-2D08675A2252@groupwbench.org> Message-ID: My Aunt & Uncle had an old farm house in Rockland, MA. (If you try to dig the soil you'd know where they came up with the name of the town...) They kept getting respiratory illnesses. Turns out there had once been gas lamps on the walls. When they got electricity the pipes had been capped off inside the walls. As the pipes got old corrosion allowed some pin holes to leak gas! Got the gas properly shut off. Respiratory illnesses solved. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Franklin" >I have a stone & mortar foundation in MA, built in 1926. I tore down > the 1970s knotty pine wall and came across a 3/4" iron pipe coming > through the foundation like a water pipe would. Except it's only a > foot below the ground. Keyspan has no record of there being gas at > the house but there is gas at the street. Could it be anything other > than gas? It's capped off but there's no valve. There's also a > disconnected iron pipe up in the joist bay with an elbow that lines > up with this, but no holes in the subfloor. From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Thu Jun 26 09:25:20 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:25:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] EDGER BLADES References: <012501c8d722$59f94f30$6401a8c0@niolon> <36CDE64D8FE841C9BB3D33C45FF24100@KARL> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638779@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Karl Vacek wrote: > > I buy what sound like the same blades (for my Homelite > trimmer) for a couple of bucks apiece. I also wasn't happy with the high price of blades. But one year at the end of the season, one of the stores (probably Wal-Mart) had the blades on clearance for a buck apiece. I bought all they had - 15 or so) and change them as needed. Bottom line is, next fall, check for the clearance sales... Tim Mullen From dgcole01 at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 26 19:12:18 2008 From: dgcole01 at bellsouth.net (David Cole) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:12:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] all brass old fashioned hose nozzle? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.1.20080626200436.01d72dd0@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net> Does anyone know of a source for an old fashioned all brass pistol grip style garden hose nozzle? Growing up, my parents and grandparents had them and they would last a lifetime. All that seem to be available locally are the cheap ones that are made from plastic or zinc pot metal with plastic guts and handles. They won''t last a season of car washing and garden watering. I've tried the new style fancy ones that have 6-7 spray patterns and they don't last either. I just want a simple pistol grip style with a brass body, brass insides and metal handle. I've not found anything in the first several pages of google hits. Help? Thanks David Cole From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 20:20:26 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:20:26 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] all brass old fashioned hose nozzle? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.1.20080626200436.01d72dd0@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net> References: <6.2.3.4.1.20080626200436.01d72dd0@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806261920q36df885dy56e35f443d41f89d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:12 PM, David Cole wrote: > Does anyone know of a source for an old fashioned all brass pistol > grip style garden hose nozzle? > > Growing up, my parents and grandparents had them and they would last > a lifetime. All that seem to be available locally are the cheap > ones that are made from plastic or zinc pot metal with plastic guts > and handles. They won''t last a season of car washing and garden > watering. I've tried the new style fancy ones that have 6-7 spray > patterns and they don't last either. > > I just want a simple pistol grip style with a brass body, brass > insides and metal handle. I've not found anything in the first > several pages of google hits. Help? None of Grainger, Mcmaster, nor MSC list such a beast, which suggests that it doesn't exist. Plenty of solid brass nozzles that are pistol-grip, though. > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Jun 26 20:28:23 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:28:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] brass nozzle Message-ID: <012001c8d7fd$798b5010$6401a8c0@niolon> try some of the high end garden shop suppliers (of which I can remember no names) Brookstone might have something or Groits Garage... but garden suppliers are your best bet... I have an old one (but you can't have it ) ) john 'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle From jniolon at bham.rr.com Thu Jun 26 20:29:45 2008 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:29:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] brass nozzle Message-ID: <012801c8d7fd$abafc4e0$6401a8c0@niolon> or ask and ye shall fine http://www.factorydirecthose.com/site/932652/product/AN-06 john 'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Thu Jun 26 20:33:25 2008 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:33:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] brass nozzle References: <012801c8d7fd$abafc4e0$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79763877E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> john niolon wrote: > > or ask and ye shall fine > > http://www.factorydirecthose.com/site/932652/product/AN-06 I think he's looking for a pistol grip style... Last one I found was at a garage sale. I paid a quarter for it. :) Tim Mullen From darmstrong at nexicom.net Thu Jun 26 21:10:39 2008 From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:10:39 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] all brass old fashioned hose nozzle? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.1.20080626200436.01d72dd0@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200806270313.m5R3DGKS031211@smtp.nexicom.net> Check out Lee Valley Tools. They are a Canadian company, but they have US distribution. Also some of the best woodworking tools money can buy! http://www.leevalley.com http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=10401&cat=2,2280,33160&ap=2 http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=47963&cat=2,2280,33160&ap=2 Or for something different: http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=57186&cat=2,2280,33160&ap=1 Doug Armstrong -----Original Message----- Subject: [Shop-talk] all brass old fashioned hose nozzle? Does anyone know of a source for an old fashioned all brass pistol grip style garden hose nozzle? Growing up, my parents and grandparents had them and they would last a lifetime. All that seem to be available locally are the cheap ones that are made from plastic or zinc pot metal with plastic guts and handles. They won''t last a season of car washing and garden watering. I've tried the new style fancy ones that have 6-7 spray patterns and they don't last either. I just want a simple pistol grip style with a brass body, brass insides and metal handle. I've not found anything in the first several pages of google hits. Help? Thanks David Cole From opposumking at verizon.net Fri Jun 27 03:54:21 2008 From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 05:54:21 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] all brass old fashioned hose nozzle? References: <6.2.3.4.1.20080626200436.01d72dd0@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <002601c8d83b$c6055f10$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us> Pistol grip brass nozzles? I don't remember that, and I don't see them listed in the various old gardening catologs. All the really old brass nozzles that I remember were either straight with a screw in cap, or fixed fan types. Not pistol grip. If you get off on antique garden hose nozzles, you might find this web site interesting. http://www.centuryinter.net/robinsnest/nozzles/ Watch the url as you go looking at various nozzles throughout the history of garden hose nozzles. the site was centurytel and many times you have to manually change it to centuryinter when you get the "page cannot be found" error. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Cole" To: Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:12 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] all brass old fashioned hose nozzle? > Does anyone know of a source for an old fashioned all brass pistol > grip style garden hose nozzle? > > Growing up, my parents and grandparents had them and they would last > a lifetime. All that seem to be available locally are the cheap > ones that are made from plastic or zinc pot metal with plastic guts > and handles. They won''t last a season of car washing and garden > watering. I've tried the new style fancy ones that have 6-7 spray > patterns and they don't last either. > > I just want a simple pistol grip style with a brass body, brass > insides and metal handle. I've not found anything in the first > several pages of google hits. Help? From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sat Jun 28 20:49:17 2008 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:49:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges Message-ID: I just replaced the front fender on my daughter's F250 with a used fender. I got really lucky and found a fender from an F350 that was in great shape and the same color. It's a great match and won't need to be painted. However, the truck now says F250 on one side and F350 on the other. I'd like to remove the badges from both fenders and put the old badges on the new fender. This doesn't seem like it would be too difficult, but I thought I'd check here before I went out searching from adhesive release agents. Any ideas? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_feb From mark at nashvilletn.org Sat Jun 28 22:01:33 2008 From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:01:33 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges References: Message-ID: <001101c8d99c$d371df40$c9e8cd4b@fujitsu> Jim Dental Floss, carefully use it to cut the bond of the tape adhesive on the badges. Then maybe a little goo-gone or WD40 to soften the residue. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" > > I just replaced the front fender on my daughter's F250 with a used fender. I > got really lucky and found a fender from an F350 that was in great shape and > the same color. It's a great match and won't need to be painted. However, > the truck now says F250 on one side and F350 on the other. I'd like to remove > the badges from both fenders and put the old badges on the new fender. This > doesn't seem like it would be too difficult, but I thought I'd check here > before I went out searching from adhesive release agents. Any ideas? From gsteve at hammatt.com Sat Jun 28 21:14:36 2008 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:14:36 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] On the road tool kit Message-ID: <6EF59427A27D43A3A9D034CBCE51A838@DesktopPC> We have a couple of old cars that we like to tour with (two are pre-1916) and we really need to put together some basic tool kits for each car. I'm considering the 100 pcs plus, plastic box with the snap-in tool holders for each car. Unfortunately most seem to beef up the tool count by including a lot of metric sockets, etc. that we don't need. Was wondering what others have found that worked and maybe be different than the readily available box store stuff. Super thanks. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 21:50:14 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:50:14 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] On the road tool kit In-Reply-To: <6EF59427A27D43A3A9D034CBCE51A838@DesktopPC> References: <6EF59427A27D43A3A9D034CBCE51A838@DesktopPC> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806282050i15a9103fue2ddbc91d2c1f3f@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote: > We have a couple of old cars that we like to > tour with (two are pre-1916) and we really need > to put together some basic tool kits for each car. > I'm considering the 100 pcs plus, plastic box with > the snap-in tool holders for each car. Unfortunately > most seem to beef up the tool count by including a > lot of metric sockets, etc. that we don't need. Was > wondering what others have found that worked and > maybe be different than the readily available box store > stuff. A car that old came with a tool kit, right? That's a good place to start. Here's the kit I work from in my elderly Land-Rover: Tire changing kit (jack, wheel brace, wheel chock etc) Set of SAE combination wrenches two crescent wrenches two vise-grips (differnt sizes) pair of dykes pair of Stork(R) gripping pliers some screwdrivers a lump hammer a 3/8" ratchet handle a couple extensions a universal a selected sizes of 3/8" drive sockets (covers the whole set of sizes needed for routine work.) a headlamp (for me, not the car; that's in addition to the other flashlights that live in the truck) For spares, I carry a couple fuel filters, a set of points, condenser, rotor, a roll of duct tape, a roll of Super 33, some fuses. (It's an english car, so the supply of oils and other fluids don't count as spares, exatly...) For long trips (when I could afford to drive the Land-Rover on them....) I carried a bigger tool kit, which added another ratchet, a complete set of 3/8 sockets, electrical tools (DVM, wire, crimpers, terminal kit, solder, bulbs), some specialized Rover tools (a thing for the wheel bearing nuts, a transmission socket, couple others) a set of small files, a couple punches, and a jack stand. I'd add some spares, depending on what was on hand. Belts and hoses, always, but things like brake rebuild kits and wheel seals. (it's British!) That's pretty much what I'd carry for any car, modified based on what kind of wrenches you need on it. That sounds like a lot of stuff, but it fits in a pretty small tool box. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From herby at herbytoys.com Sun Jun 29 01:47:21 2008 From: herby at herbytoys.com (Herby) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:47:21 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges In-Reply-To: <001101c8d99c$d371df40$c9e8cd4b@fujitsu> Message-ID: <000701c8d9bc$5f101e30$6401a8c0@HERBYZ> I use a combination of a heat gun and 3M Adhesive, Wax & Grease Remover (#03607). I like the dental floss idea though. I wasn't worried about saving the emblems/decals I was removing so the heat gun worked great. I have used goo-gone, Goof Off and many others but found the 3M stuff works much better. I picked it up at Pep Boys, Kragen's or one of my local auto parts chains. Herby 63 MKII Sprite (Herbytoy - patiently waiting) 62 MKII Sprite (the "resto-mod" driver) 00 Dakota R/T (the new toy) herby at herbytoys.com www.herbytoys.com Jim Dental Floss, carefully use it to cut the bond of the tape adhesive on the badges. Then maybe a little goo-gone or WD40 to soften the residue. Mark From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sun Jun 29 08:50:34 2008 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 10:50:34 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges In-Reply-To: <000701c8d9bc$5f101e30$6401a8c0@HERBYZ> References: <000701c8d9bc$5f101e30$6401a8c0@HERBYZ> Message-ID: <4867A13A.9010100@xxiii.com> Herby wrote: > goo-gone, Goof Off and many others but found the 3M stuff works much better. > I picked it up at Pep Boys, Kragen's or one of my local auto parts chains. 3M stuff rocks! Unfortunately, they realize this and charge accordingly. Think I paid $15 and change for an aerosol can of "pinstripe remover" -- but d@@@ the stuff worked! -Wayne From cak at dimebank.com Sun Jun 29 10:50:26 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges Message-ID: <200806291650.m5TGoQCA016181@moose.dimebank.com> The 3M stuff is truly amazing. It attacks the adhesive ... and only the adhesive. Doesn't knock the gloss off the paint. Doesn't ruin the chrome. Doesn't leave greasy filmy residue on the bench or tools. Truly "better living through chemistry". I have one of the pint cans with needle pour spout on my bench, and use it for general cleanup and paint prep, as well as all the "normal" uses. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 12:44:01 2008 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:44:01 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806291143p5d6010afq7adfdf465438d548@mail.gmail.com> References: <000701c8d9bc$5f101e30$6401a8c0@HERBYZ> <4867A13A.9010100@xxiii.com> <2400a5d40806291143p5d6010afq7adfdf465438d548@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40806291144n1dff9285q6a2e18fe4f802a56@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Scheidt Date: Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges To: Wayne On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Wayne wrote: > Herby wrote: >> goo-gone, Goof Off and many others but found the 3M stuff works much better. >> I picked it up at Pep Boys, Kragen's or one of my local auto parts chains. > > 3M stuff rocks! Unfortunately, they realize this and charge > accordingly. Think I paid $15 and change for an aerosol can of > "pinstripe remover" -- but d@@@ the stuff worked! > In the case of pinstripe remover, it's better living through physics. It's a pretty standard adhesive (though, not a xylene-based one) remover, with fumed silica (very, very small bits of glass, basically) as an abrasive. Most of the petroleum based adhesive removing solvents are built around the same basic solvents. The base is xylene, which attacks a fair number of adhesives, but not all, and is a very effective degreaser. Xylene is typically about half the product, ranging up to 75% in some. The next ingredient in most formulas is "naptha", which is a vaguely defined bunch of hydrocarbons. The good expensive products (like 3Ms) are probably using a small number of particular chemicals; cheaper stuff is using it by density and boiling point. Napthas are 20-50% of the product, depending. The rest of the stuff depends on the particular product. Common ingredients include ethlybenzene (which is often present in solvent-grade xylene, so it may be there in pretty high percentages, even if it's not listed on the MSDS), benzene, toluene, heptane, and more. Depending on where you live, you may be able to get xylene at the hardware store. (The home depot here sells it in gallon cans, for about 10 bucks (well, it's probably 20 these days...)) It's worth trying before you go for an expensive preparation, because it works about 80% of the time, and is much cheaper. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jmitch at snet.net Sun Jun 29 16:47:13 2008 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:47:13 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] I need help with staining new windows Message-ID: <486810F1.3010005@snet.net> I'm installing replacement windows in my house and I've managed to mix up a batch of stain that is extremely close in color to trim thats there now. My problem is that the new windows seem to take the stain with much more grain showing, as if the windows were more of a rough milled wood, with some area quite dark. Can I mellow out the grain with something like sanding sealer, or will that change the color also? Thanks for any advice. John Mitchell Shelton, CT From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Jun 29 17:36:58 2008 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:36:58 -0400 Subject: [Shop-talk] I need help with staining new windows References: <486810F1.3010005@snet.net> Message-ID: http://www.minwax.com/products/wood_preparation/ Pre-stain wood conditioner, umm, before the stain. Sanding sealer after the stain (if desired). Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Mitchell" > My problem is that the new windows seem to take the stain > with much more grain showing, as if the windows were more of a rough > milled wood, with some area quite dark. Can I mellow out the grain > with > something like sanding sealer, or will that change the color also? > Thanks for any advice. John Mitchell Shelton, CT From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Jun 29 18:03:00 2008 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Shop-talk] I need help with staining new windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <544451.44900.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> About sanding sealer: Sanding sealer is traditionally some sort of lacquer-like paint that has a lot of filler in it (e.g. talc). It's meant for filling wood grain before painting. Recently I bought some Minwax "sanding sealer", and it was a totally different product. It seemed very similar to polyurethane varnish, and did not seem to have much filler in it. I think it was meant for use under polyurethane varnish, and it did not work well for my project, which I was painting. So if you buy sanding sealer, read the label carefully and make sure it is the correct type for your application. Doug --- Eric J Russell wrote: > http://www.minwax.com/products/wood_preparation/ > > Pre-stain wood conditioner, umm, before the stain. > Sanding sealer > after the stain (if desired). > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From pethier at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 21:22:22 2008 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:22:22 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Corrugated fiberglass panels. How many screws? Message-ID: <063020080322.8216.4868516D000F28230000201822155538949D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> I am putting corrugated fiberglass panels up as a cover over a deck. I bought the thickest white ones my local Menard's carries. The finished roof will be about 17 x 8 feet. This is a simple shed-style roof, with water draining down the corrugations at a 16-degree angle to a (wavy) drip edge. Each panel is 8 feet long, and covers 2 feet wide when overlapped one wavelength. I have corrugated strips of wood which purport to match the shape of the fiberglass. The concept is that one drills a hole through the top of the wave and put a pole-barn screw (with built-in rubber washer) through the top of the wave, through the corrugated strip and into the wood crosspiece below. I have four such crosspieces. My question is: How many screws do I need across each panel? If I put them three across, that would be a dozen screws through each panel (the overlap section would mean that two panels share the four screws on the edge). Is this enough? BTW, I don't intend to cut any of these panels. The panel length should be correct, and I will make the width come out correct by overlapping more than one wavelength. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From cavanadd at verizon.net Sun Jun 29 22:27:25 2008 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] I need help with staining new windows In-Reply-To: <486810F1.3010005@snet.net> References: <486810F1.3010005@snet.net> Message-ID: <0K3900B8PDPUA2C9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> One way to even stain out is to apply a wash coat of shellac. Get a can of clear shellac; Zinser is the brand I see most often. They sell clear and amber. You want the clear. Then you want to cut it way back. Shellac is mixed in "pound" cuts. The stuff they sell in cans is usually a 3 pound cut, 3 pounds of raw shellac flakes to a gallon of denatured alcohol. You want a 1 lb cut (or lighter). Dilute the shellac with two to three parts of denatured alcohol to one part of canned shellac. Put this on a piece of scrap, let it dry, lightly sand with fine sandpaper, then stain. Dave C At 03:47 PM 6/29/2008, John Mitchell wrote: > I'm installing replacement windows in my house and I've managed to >mix up a batch of stain that is extremely close in color to trim thats >there now. My problem is that the new windows seem to take the stain >with much more grain showing, as if the windows were more of a rough >milled wood, with some area quite dark. Can I mellow out the grain with >something like sanding sealer, or will that change the color also? >Thanks for any advice. John Mitchell Shelton, CT >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive